# Looking for advice on self defense rounds (not for target practice)



## donmontalvo (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm using Federal (cheap) ammo from Walmart for target practice. What hollow point rounds do you guys recommend for self defense?

Thanks for any feedback!

Don


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

What caliber?


----------



## donmontalvo (Mar 28, 2010)

Sully2 said:


> What caliber?


Hi Sully2,

I thought the same thing after I shut down the computer to head to work...I forgot to specify the caliber! 

I use 9mm (Glock 17, and later 26).

Thanks,
Don


----------



## VietVet68 (Jan 10, 2010)

I CC my Glock 19 and the SD ammo in it is Hornady Critical Defense but I'll warn you that it's not easy to find. My second choice is PowR'Ball.


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Since you have Glocks, you can probably use any premium hollow point ammo, without fear of malfunction, so you should just pick something that shoots closest to POA. That may vary, according to bullet weight.

I use 147 grain Hornady XTPs in my 9mm CZ RAMI, because that is what it feeds best and shoots exactly to point of aim with.


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

donmontalvo said:


> Hi Sully2,
> 
> I thought the same thing after I shut down the computer to head to work...I forgot to specify the caliber!
> 
> ...


Well Im not familiar enough with Glocks to know the individual models so I'll give you my "generic" answer. DEPENDING on the pistol and caliber I like a load to be as hot as I "can handle". In my 1911 stable Ive found that using +P-230 rounds Im very slow getting back on target for a second shot. So for the .45 ACP instead of loading a 230 gr HP...I handload a 200 gr HP at 50 fps less velocity.

Now that I have ONE 9 mm (S&W MP compact) about the best I can do for initial and follow up shots is a round thats similiar in weight and velocity to the WW White box. I have 200 on order ( I forget the identifier??) that duplicates the velocity and has the same WEIGHT slug but is a HP design. So I'll be testing those as soon as I get them.

If I am pushed into it I'll handload my own 9mm to get what I want in the end..??

I guess what Im trying to say is buy some different stuff....Shoot it not only for accuracy but for follow-up shots too and since each of us is different...what I chose might be all wrong for you....if you understand my meaning.


----------



## cougartex (Jan 2, 2010)

Winchester WB 147GR JHP or Remington Golden Saber 124 GR JHP.


----------



## onebigelf (Jun 4, 2010)

Hey, I get my feet wet with my first post.

I carry a Glock 19 and have just picked up a Sig P6 that I'll get a chance to shoot this weekend. The Glock has no problems feeding any 9mm HP that I've tried in it. I like the Speer Gold Dot, and the Hydroshock, just not in 147gr. My personal favorite is the 124gr Ranger +P. The 147gr rounds became the "hot thing" a while back because military special forces used them- so they had to be the best, right? Not so fast. The military wasn't using them for their superior terminal performance, but because they're sub-sonic. They were using them in suppressed SMG's. The performance of the 147gr 9mm in real world law enforcement shootings has been spotty at best. It turns out that the faster 115gr and 124gr loads do better. Particularly through heavy clothing the 147's can lose velocity and not penetrate deeply enough reliably, or expand properly. The military counters with 3 round bursts and head shots.
They aren't lousy, probably better than even the best .380 rounds, but they aren't necessarily the best available.

John


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Here is what Im starting with in my MP Compact.....


----------



## TheBlacksmith (Jun 20, 2010)

CorBon 115gr Luger +P (1350 fps) JHP


----------



## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

I use 124gr Speer Gold Dots for carry. I have worked a load up using 124gr lead that I practice with. The POI is dead on for a G19 and a S&W MP-9. I have found the GD's to be a good defense round in all calibers. :smt033


----------



## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

I have a handful of Glock 9mms in various sizes, and they all function perfectly with any 115, 124/125/127, or 147 grain hollow point I've tried in them. The point of impact will vary slightly, but not enough to cause a miss at any reasonable self-defense distance.

I use Gold Dots in various weights, Federal HST or Hydra-Shocks in various weights, or sometimes generic JHP loads from Walmart, like the Personal Protection loads pictured in one of the posts above this one. If your Walmart carries it (not all do), Remington/UMC makes a tall green "Value Pack" 100-round box of 115 JHPs (two 50-shot trays, stacked). It's pretty good stuff, especially when you consider the price of around $25 per 100. Any decent JHP load will do, if you place the shot(s) well. If you don't place the shot(s), there ain't no magic bullet that's gonna make up for it... :smt023

Back in the medium-good-old-days, an auto wasn't considered "tested" and reliable with a JHP defensive load until you'd shot 200 rounds through it, with no stoppages. Heck, nowadays, that could be $250-$400 worth of premium ammo, depending on caliber. Very few folks can afford this, and even those who can, would rather spend the money somewhere else, methinks. Buy something you can afford to practice with, because practice with your actual defensive gun/ammo combo is important.


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

onebigelf said:


> The performance of the 147gr 9mm in real world law enforcement shootings has been spotty at best. It turns out that the faster 115gr and 124gr loads do better. Particularly through heavy clothing the 147's can lose velocity and not penetrate deeply enough reliably, or expand properly.


Those LE shootings were several years ago, and bullet expansion technology has improved significantly. I base my inclination toward 147 gr. on more recent testing, and I don't shoot subsonic rounds.

Also, your contention that 147s will not penetrate deeply enough makes no sense to me. A heavier bullet will have more penetration, not less (all other factors being approximately equal), and if a loss of velocity does cause it not to expand, that will occur _before_ it strikes anything. If anything at all causes it not to expand, it will penetrate even deeper. Heavy clothing will have no greater slowing effect on 147 gr. than on any other bullet, in fact it will probably slow it less.

Having said all that, 124 gr. are fine. My 9mms just happen to shoot a little better with 147 gr. and they feed reliably, so that's what I go with.


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

TheBlacksmith said:


> CorBon 115gr Luger +P (1350 fps) JHP


Thats flat "getting it"...:mrgreen: I dont think I could handle those in my little MP9c...the muzzle jump might be a tad hard to control. Presently my 115's are at 1150...and I'll try and work up something a tad faster...until I cant hit a bull in the butt...and then cut it back a bit.


----------



## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

I like Speer Gold Dots. They have been hard to find so I bought Gold Dot bullets and loaded my own.

The 124Gr 9's chronoed at 1149 FPS vs. Factory spec of 1150 (an accident) and my 200Gr 45's chronoed at 951 (another accident) vs Factory 950 FPS.

They will have to do.


----------



## SigDoubleTap (Feb 28, 2010)

*HP's*

I hate safety ammo/small grained ammo, and the whole collateral damage issue, as if every shot in a gunfight is going to hit perfectly every time.

Basically use ammo that will do the job, able to go through a car door and a whole chest cavity from the side meaning 17 inches of penetration, something a 115 HP will not do. Go heavy.

Also use factory ammo, since liability issues abound from hand loaded ammo in firefights. You may be sued or jailed.


----------



## VietVet68 (Jan 10, 2010)

SigDoubleTap said:


> I hate safety ammo/small grained ammo, and the whole collateral damage issue, as if every shot in a gunfight is going to hit perfectly every time.
> 
> Basically use ammo that will do the job, able to go through a car door and a whole chest cavity from the side meaning 17 inches of penetration, something a 115 HP will not do. Go heavy.
> 
> Also use factory ammo, since liability issues abound from hand loaded ammo in firefights. You may be sued or jailed.


Well then, what's your recommendation?


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

SigDoubleTap said:


> Also use factory ammo, since liability issues abound from hand loaded ammo in firefights. You may be sued or jailed.


Thats an old internet wives tale. A person needs to be sure his ammo is just as reliable as factory stuff....but no one in their right mind is going to try and load a "+P++" sort of round in their basement.


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Sully2 said:


> Thats an old internet wives tale.


Really?

I've participated in this discussion numerous times and numerous places, always on the side of it being reasonable to use hand loads under certain circumstances, but I have never prevailed against the 'consensus.'

Since Mas Ayoob, whom I have quite a bit of respect for, declared that it was unwise to use hand loads for legal reasons, almost every other self defense 'expert' has jumped on the bandwagon, despite the lack of actual evidence that liability is increased to any significant degree.

I'm not actually disagreeing with your assertion that good, fresh hand loaded ammo is OK. I tend to favor that argument, myself, although I do still use factory loads for SD carry...at least until it becomes too scarce or prohibitively expensive.

I just disagree with your suggestion that the issue has been settled, or that all knowledgeable people agree with your personal opinion, when in fact, the opposite is true.


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Bisley said:


> Really?
> 
> I've participated in this discussion numerous times and numerous places, always on the side of it being reasonable to use hand loads under certain circumstances, but I have never prevailed against the 'consensus.'
> 
> ...


Just where did I state or even imply that "the matter" had been settled..etc...etc or that all knowledgeable people had to agree with me? I didnt now did I? And as far as Ayoob goes...there is probably as many people sick of hearing him blow his own horn as there is people that flock to his side!


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Sully2 said:


> Just where did I state or even imply that "the matter" had been settled..etc...etc or that all knowledgeable people had to agree with me? I didnt now did I? And as far as Ayoob goes...there is probably as many people sick of hearing him blow his own horn as there is people that flock to his side!


Excuse me...my mistake.

Sometimes I jump to conclusions when trying to decipher blustery comments.


----------



## Josh Smith (Jul 1, 2010)

Handgun: Taurus PT92, 5" barrel
Ammunition: Remington UMC 9mm standard pressure, 115gr, packaged in a 100 round "value pack" L9MM1B

I was asking around the various gun boards about this stuff a while back. I received mixed opinions as to how it would perform, so I went ahead and bought it with the intention of testing it. If the tests came out in its favor I would relegate it to second string carry ammuntion and woods ammunition. Here is the test using four layers of denim and water jugs.









_Most important to any handgun/ammuniton combination is the the ability of the ammunition to function reliably in the firearm. Though I've done some gunsmithing to my Taurus to make it ultra-reliable, bullet shape never hurts either. As you can see, this Remington hollowpoint has almost a hardball profile._

Being old tech, this round is representative of older style hollowpoints designed to be used in pistols originally engineered to feed ball reliably. It works.









_My standard water test setup..._









_And from the front..._

That four layers of denim is thicker than it may look on camera. Take the leg of your blue jeans and fold it in half - imagine a hollowpoint bullet performing properly after being plugged with that much material.

Usually I insert a movie of the shot here, but I was shooting alone today.









_After the shot I discovered two things: First, the bullet didn't seem affected in its performance by the denim as the front jug exploded and landed on the ground, seperated from the denim which had been taped on well. The second thing I noticed was that, after shredding the second jug as well as the first, the bullet veered off and disappeared. (I set the jug back up for photographic purposes.)_

Though I could postulate what happened from the reaction of the milk jugs, I didn't have a bullet and therefore nothing was "solid." I set up two more jugs which were meant to be used to test my carry round, the Bonded Golden Saber. That'll have to wait a week or so now.









_As you can see, the second setup is the same as the first._









_Here is the front jug and denim exactly how they landed after my second shot. The jug seemed to have been launched into the air and was totally shredded, looking as if someone had put a mouse inside and thrown it to the coyotes! This is performance typical to hollowpoints the generation previous to our current "best" crop._

The previous generation of hollowpoints, while they typically expanded well, usually did so in the first few inches. This was true of the Silvertip, and in my experience, true also of the Federal C9BP "Classic" hollowpoint. I used this last to dispatch a sick rabbit once at 15 yards or so, and it took that rabbit apart, looking as if it had expanded almost fully before exiting the broadside shot.









_These are jug numbers, from right to left, 2, 3, and 4. Notice how jug #2 is blown out, and jug #3 is losing water._









_I found the spent bullet between jugs #3 and #4._









_The bullet exhibited textbook expansion after passing through four layers of denim. Again, fold the leg of your blue jeans and imagine the bullet performing well after passing through that barrier. As well, I didn't measure correctly. *These jugs are 6" thick instead of the 4" I am used to. Penetration was closer to 18" in water, or about 9" in ballistic gelatin.*_

Sorry about that, folks. The milk people need to tell me when they're going to change form factor! Oops! Seriously, I should have measured before jumping to conclusions. I will do so from now on.









_A closer shot of the expanded bullet. As I said, textbook performance..._









_Curiously, the jacket and core did not try to seperate. Though I'm not too concerned about it, I may email Remington to see if they've begun bonding everything..._









_From the front, you can see how the jacket peeled back. Though not designed like the Black Talon, Ranger or SXT, this jacket is fairly sharp and protrudes enough that I'd guess it would see some "action" if used for serious purposes._

Honestly, this stuff surprised me. Though I carried the +P version of this ammuntion while waiting for some premium stuff to arrive, I didn't truly feel comfortable with it and used it for range fodder as soon as the premium ammunition arrived.

Not the best these days by any stretch of the imagination, this Remington ammunition, now (perhaps sadly) relegated to discount store bulk ammunition sales, still has plenty of punch to do most jobs which need doing. While not top-of-the-line any longer for barrier penetration, having been designed to the older penetration specification of 10" - 12" instead of the 12" - 14" we usually accept as the golden standard today, this old style ammo should still do the job in most defensive situations encountered by law enforcement and legally armed private citizens.

I'm favorably impressed.

Josh


----------



## Josh Smith (Jul 1, 2010)

*****

Handgun: Taurus PT92AF 9mm
Load Tested: 124 grain +P Bonded Golden Saber Hollowpoint
Test Media: Water, one gallon jugs
Barrier: Four layer denim

Tonight I set out to test my carry ammo, Remington's 124gr +P Bonded Golden Saber in 9mm. I used my usual water method with a barrier of four layers of denim taken from an old pair of blue jeans taped to the front jug. My first test ever was with a 147gr non-bonded version, and I was excited to see what this newer bonded version would do. The 147gr was tested in a five gallon water bucket and performed very favorably with regard to expansion, so I expected the bonded version to perform even better. Penetration was actually a bit shallow with the 147gr standard version, if I recall correctly.









_Here is my usual setup from the side&#8230;_









_&#8230; and from the front._

I was expecting the expansion/deformation to be similar to Remington's standard hollowpoint, standard pressure, that I tested a week or so ago. I was wrong.


_My perspective of the shot. Sighting is challenging when done on a camera's LCD display! I think I'll also have to work on remembering to turn it off right after the shot&#8230; (~ 4mB, 56k users, plan on about 15mins download time should you click the pic.)_









_As with its older brother, the standard hollowpoint, the Bonded Golden Saber shredded the first two jugs. Curiously, the front jug stayed put instead of being blown off the bench._









_A closer look at the front jug&#8230;_









_And the second jug. The gaping hole was not caused directly by the bullet, but rather it blew out at that seam._









_As you can see in the movie, the denim was blown clear when the first jug went, and landed about five feet away on the ground._

I traced the bullet path. I was a little off on my aiming as you can see in the video; at the last second the sight was resting on the upper left of the jug. Regardless, the bullet path was an almost perfectly straight line through all jugs but the last. Though it glanced off an angle on the last jug, it _did_ cut the plastic, causing the jug to leak. I am pretty sure it would have penetrated into the fifth jug had it not hit an angle.









_I found the shredded bullet several yards away. I didn't expect it to be in this condition, but it's commonly known that water will usually act upon a bullet in the most extreme manner of all test media._









_This is the only other piece of the bullet I could find, a lone petal in the third jug. I suspect that the others exited with the water._

Though some may consider this a failure, I do not. I actually _prefer_ some fragmentation as long as I have penetration.









_The Bonded Golden Saber seems to have plenty of penetration. It penetrated four milk jugs and damaged the fifth beyond reuse, then continued on its way after deflecting off the fifth. This translates into 24+ inches of penetration in water, or more than 12 inches of penetration in gelatin._









_A top view of my expansion measurements&#8230; right about ¾ of an inch!_









_And a side view. Notice how the jacket and core stayed together as they should have. After the front disintegrated (about 18" of water), the base continued on as a wadcutter profile._

I like this round. Though it didn't exhibit picture-perfect expansion in my test, it certainly showed it could cause damage comparable to other rounds I've tested in this manner. Further, it didn't seem to be impressed by the four layers of denim at all, and in addition to causing quite a bit of disruption in the first two jugs and moderate disruption in the third, it penetrated almost as much as a 38 Spl 158gr LSWCHP +P that failed to expand when I tested it against denim.

While the Bonded Golden Saber seems like the best of both worlds to me, this round just begs for further testing.

Josh


----------



## Josh Smith (Jul 1, 2010)

Handgun: Taurus PT92AF
Ammunition: Black Hills Gold Dot 124 grain +P
Test Media: Water jugs, one gallon each, first jug covered with four layers of denim

I had a request to test some +P Gold Dot ammunition.

I had on hand some Gold Dots as loaded by Black Hills. The factory claims that these 124 grain bullets scoot along at right around 1,250fps, and though I do not have a chronograph, those who do report that they do at least that velocity.









_The standard setup from the side&#8230;_









_&#8230; and from the front._

To be honest, I wasn't sure what to expect. The Gold Dot is a popular bullet among several manufacturers and the shooting public. I figured there had to be a reason.


_Here's the shot. Whoa, look at that jug fly! I'm glad my camera has zoom&#8230;_









_It shredded the first jug._

I set the first jug back up with its mates. I was expecting total destruction of the first three jugs and deep penetration.









_I'm not seeing, upon first glance, the total water and plastic carnage I had come to expect from the hype. My first thought was, "It didn't even make it to the third jug???_

Hmm&#8230; strange, for a legendary bullet.









_It actually made it into the third jug, barely. I found it intact in approximately the middle of the third jug._

It turns out the Gold Dot, driven to around 1250fps, will only penetrate about 15 inches of water, or approximately seven to nine inches of ordnance gelatin.









_After I got inside&#8230;_

I will say this for the bullet: It's commendable how well it held together.









_Expansion was approximately .63". Not the best I've seen, but far from the worst._

Here are the numbers for the Black Hills 124gr +P GDHP loading:

Expansion was about .63".
Penetration was about 15" of water plus four layers of denim.

I can't help but compare that to other loads I've tested. Here are a couple other rounds tested, numbers according to the notes I took right after the test:

The Remington 124 grain +P Bonded Golden Saber expanded to about .75", though it _did_ show fragmentation of the hollowpoint. However, the first two jugs were torn up equally, indicating that it fragmented mainly in the first 12" of water. It continued on, destroying all five jugs after defeating the denim, though it only destroyed the last jug by cutting it as it deflected off an angle. Total penetration was 24+" of water, or 12" inches of gelatin.

The Remington 115 grain standard hollowpoint, standard pressure, showed an energy dump in the first two jugs, as did the Gold Dot, and expanded to about .50", just a shade less than the Gold Dot. Penetration was right at 18" of water, three jugs after defeating the four layers of denim. This equates to nine to 11" of penetration in ballistic gelatin.

The Gold Dot did not expand as much as the Bonded Golden Saber, nor did it penetrate nearly as much. It looks as if it is approximately equal to the Remington 115 grain standard pressure in penetration, though it did show a bit more expansion.

After reviewing this load, I simply cannot recommend it above either of the loads to which I compared it. It does not have penetration superior to either loading, and it falls between the two in expansion. Additionally, it has more muzzle blast and recoil than either loading.

I believe that while the Gold Dot is a good bullet, it's no longer superior to most state-of-the-art loads as the above test shows. It's not past its prime, but there are better loads out there. However, if it's your cup of tea, you're not handicapped by carrying it.

Josh


----------



## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Josh: If you enjoy testing...definitely pick up a chronograph. They truly arent that $$$. Once you chrono factory round "X"...you can easily duplicate it..at times with the identical bullet. That way, if you care to, you can "plink" with your "factory speed" reloads and use the true factory round as your carry ammo if you are so inclined.

A chrono is a BIG help.


----------



## SigDoubleTap (Feb 28, 2010)

*About my statement*

About my posting...



> Use factory ammo, since liability issues abound from hand loaded ammo in firefights. You may be sued or jailed.


I admit I have been only shooting for six years, but I am a quick study and I have learned a lot from you guys since joining this forum. Thank you and God bless you all. I know that re-loading is an art form, and a fun hobby from friends who do. In no way did I mean to imply anything other, I was just stating observations I read about liability issues.

I didn't think my statement would generate so much controversy, and I did a lot more research on the subject. *I found absolutely no hard evidence from any court cases where a re-load shooting had any negative effects for the shooter involved. Case closed.*

I also saw that much of this controversy _was_ generated from the Ayoob guy. I found he is a man whom is very well respected and one of the pinnacles of self defense, *but I do not take any one man's word as law.*

I do not re-load myself, but knowing what I do now, I would gladly defend myself from an armed person with deadly intentions with my own re-loded ammo, and I would also be proud. (Not in a bad way..you know me and what I mean).

For now I exclusively use 147 grain Remington Golden Saber ammo.


----------

