# 380's



## Bersaguy

I love about any quality 380 Caliber made. I actually have 7 380 Caliber guns. 3 Thunders in different styles, 1 pride & joy Model 85, Firefox a real sweetheart Llama, 1 LCP and had close double in a S&W Bodyguard and a very close friend of mine had the model 85! Well, he new how bad I wanted that 85 he had but would not sell it to me. When I showed him the Bodyguard I had purchased from a friend he made a bid to buy it and I just laughed. Not because the bid was low because it was well above what I gave for it but because I knew he was wanting a Bodyguard for sometime. I told him it was not for sale. Now this is one of my very best friends we are talking about! He was over at my place about every morning for coffee and biscuits. Well the following day he came for coffee as usual and we were talking when he reached on his left side and out of a holster came the 85 and he laid it on the table. I didn't say anything, just got up and went to the gun safe and got the Bodyguard out, went back to the table. Laid it on the table, he picked it up and put it in is jacket pocket and I took the 85 and locked it in the safe and during this time no words were exchanged. We finished our coffee and biscuits, He got up and asked if I happen to have a few 380 rounds layin around I had not planned on using so I went and got him a box of Fiocchi's and handed them to him so he could stop at the range on the way home. I had previously got to shoot the 85 about a month earlier so I knew how it shot. He was happy and I was thrilled cause I finally had a model 85 I had been wanting for years.............:smt041


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## Craigh

Welcome aboard. I Googled and looked. Not sure what that Model 85 is. Maybe I'm just not thinking. I found the Taurus 85 revolver and some .380 Llama Micromax models, but nothing about a Firefox. Help me out. What is it? Maybe Bersa Firestorm? Bersa 85?


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## Bersaguy

Craigh said:


> Welcome aboard. I Googled and looked. Not sure what that Model 85 is. Maybe I'm just not thinking. I found the Taurus 85 revolver and some .380 Llama Micromax models, but nothing about a Firefox. Help me out. What is it? Maybe Bersa Firestorm? Bersa 85?




Well let me see if I can explain some of this. The Thunder and the Firefox are I guess what you would call brother & sister. The Firefox has slightly different grips and different sights and may weigh slightly less. Other than that not much difference. When Bersa decided to step up the bulked up the model 83 which was a 7+1 loaded gun and enlarged the grip over all allowing a double stack magazine allowing a capacity of 14+1 in the tube. I love shooting mine at the range. I also think it is one of the better double action semiautos on the market. Yea that first pull is long but the next 14 are quick as you can pull the trigger which I have had my trigger updated after the initial round is fired the next 14 are very quick if I need to send that much hot lead down range. I will see if I can get a picture of it up someplace where folks can see her. Ok I just put a picture of my 85 in my avatar space.


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## Bersaguy

One more little piece of information for those or you that might own a Model 85. The factory mags are almost non existant and those that have extras would not sell the for gold coins as I have been told by a few that have 1 or 2 extras. Got to talking with a buddy that is a gunsmith that is big into building custom 1911's and pretty sharp when it comes to making things work without to much effort. He told me to purchase about 3 of the double stack magazines for the Thunder 380 Combat Plus and bring them and my 85 to his shop. He called me up a few days later and we went down to his private indoor range and I went through 4 double stack magazine loads and the 85 never missed a lick. Ate the rounds like candy. Cost me $15.00 plus the magazines and of course the ammo I brought with me but now I have 4 double stack mags for my 85......................:smt038:smt068


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## aarondhgraham

*Firefox???*

*Hello Bersaguy.*

Not to nit-pick,,,
But that gun you call a Firefox,,,
Isn't it's proper name the *Firestorm*?

Firefox was a Jet Fighter that Clint Eastwood stole from the Russians.
It's also an internet browser.

*Hello craigh.*

The Model 85 he is referring to is a Beretta Cheetah,,,
Looks just like a Beretta M9 but slightly smaller.

Click here please.

I own a Bersa Thunder 380 which is a very fine handgun,,,
I also own a Ruger LCP which is a useabal handgun,,,

But the Beretta 85 I own is a fantastic handgun.

At 8+1 it's capacity could be better,,,
But it's still just a fantastic gun.

Here are the Bersa and the Beretta side by side.









Aarond

.


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## aarondhgraham

Oops!

Double Post.

Aarond

.


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## Craigh

aarondhgraham said:


> Here are the Bersa and the Beretta side by side.
> 
> View attachment 14665
> 
> 
> Aarond
> 
> .


Thanks, Aarond. I appreciate the answer. I just couldn't find "Firefox" anywhere. I'm just not well versed in either Bersa or Beretta to know any better. I'll say this, they are both very nice looking handguns.


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## Bersaguy

The firearm I have in my Avatar is a Bersa Model 85 and yes it is very similar to the Beretta and yea it is Firestorm. I have no clue why I said FireFox when I was talking about Thunders and sister gun Firestorm. There are suttle differences between the Thunder and Firestorm but you have to look close to see them. I would love to own one of the Beretta's too but just a tad outside my price range.......:watching:


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## aarondhgraham

*Hello Bersaguy,,,*
I made that gross error of assumption,,,
I was in error when I assumed you were referring to the Beretta Model 85.

I know about the Bersa Model 85,,,
But I've never seen one to hold in my hand.

The Firestorm 380 and Thunder 380 are both made by Bersa,,,
And the differences between the two are very subtle.

For one, the Firestorm has a rounded trigger guard where the Thunder has the "combat" shaped guard.

As for substituting Firefox for Firestorm,,,
I do stuff like that all the time,,,
I call it "a senior moment". 

*"I'll say this, they are both very nice looking handguns."*

I agree,,,
Both are cool but the Beretta is just plain "sexy".

I have the Model 87 (.22 LR) and the Model 85 (.380),,,
Those Italians know how to design for style.








I also have the Bersa Thunder 22 and the Thunder 380.








I collect (and shoot) matching rimfire centerfire pairs.

Aarond

.


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## Bersaguy

aarondhgraham said:


> *Hello Bersaguy,,,*
> I made that gross error of assumption,,,
> I was in error when I assumed you were referring to the Beretta Model 85.
> 
> I know about the Bersa Model 85,,,
> But I've never seen one to hold in my hand.
> 
> The Firestorm 380 and Thunder 380 are both made by Bersa,,,
> And the differences between the two are very subtle.
> 
> For one, the Firestorm has a rounded trigger guard where the Thunder has the "combat" shaped guard.
> 
> As for substituting Firefox for Firestorm,,,
> I do stuff like that all the time,,,
> I call it "a senior moment".
> 
> *"I'll say this, they are both very nice looking handguns."*
> 
> I agree,,,
> Both are cool but the Beretta is just plain "sexy".
> 
> I have the Model 87 (.22 LR) and the Model 85 (.380),,,
> Those Italians know how to design for style.
> View attachment 14673
> 
> 
> I also have the Bersa Thunder 22 and the Thunder 380.
> View attachment 14681
> 
> 
> I collect (and shoot) matching rimfire centerfire pairs.
> 
> Aarond
> 
> .


I would love to own a Beretta but its out of my price range. As foor the 22lr Bersa's I know several people that own them and all of them have complaints about them so have not looked into getting one yet. Now that Beretta is building them right here in the town I live in maybe someday I will be able to afford one............:watching:


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## aarondhgraham

I have never had a problem with my Thunder 22,,,
It eats everything from Wal-Mart Federal Bulk to Mini-Mags.

It is an inexpensive gun so I have in the past bought two as graduation gifts,,,
One girls had a problem after she cleaned hers though,,,
But I got help from the Bersa forum to fix it.

The recoil spring must go on the correct way,,,
One end of the coil spring is smaller than the other,,,
The smaller end must go towards the rear of the pistol.

It's barely noticeable but if you put it in backwards (like she did),,,
The gun becomes very unreliable.

I reversed the spring on mine just to try it out,,,
Lo and behold my very reliable pistol became unreliable.

Yeah, the Beretta Model 87 is way over-priced for what it is,,,
But I had stumbled on a windfall of extra cash,,,
I decided to jump on the chance and get it.

I paid $666.66 plus tax for the dang thing,,,
So I don't blame anyone for saying it's too expensive.

I bought mine back in 2011 before they stopped importing them,,,
I'm glad that I did it before they stopped.

Right now budsgunshop.com is asking $828.00 for the gun,,,
Which is an even more ridiculous price for the pistol,,,
But I badly wanted one to match my Model 85.

Collecting when one is a little OCD can be expensive. 

Aarond

.


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## Bersaguy

aarondhgraham said:


> I have never had a problem with my Thunder 22,,,
> It eats everything from Wal-Mart Federal Bulk to Mini-Mags.
> 
> It is an inexpensive gun so I have in the past bought two as graduation gifts,,,
> One girls had a problem after she cleaned hers though,,,
> But I got help from the Bersa forum to fix it.
> 
> The recoil spring must go on the correct way,,,
> One end of the coil spring is smaller than the other,,,
> The smaller end must go towards the rear of the pistol.
> 
> It's barely noticeable but if you put it in backwards (like she did),,,
> The gun becomes very unreliable.
> 
> I reversed the spring on mine just to try it out,,,
> Lo and behold my very reliable pistol became unreliable.
> 
> Yeah, the Beretta Model 87 is way over-priced for what it is,,,
> But I had stumbled on a windfall of extra cash,,,
> I decided to jump on the chance and get it.
> 
> I paid $666.66 plus tax for the dang thing,,,
> So I don't blame anyone for saying it's too expensive.
> 
> I bought mine back in 2011 before they stopped importing them,,,
> I'm glad that I did it before they stopped.
> 
> Right now budsgunshop.com is asking $828.00 for the gun,,,
> Which is an even more ridiculous price for the pistol,,,
> But I badly wanted one to match my Model 85.
> 
> Collecting when one is a little OCD can be expensive.
> 
> Aarond
> 
> .


I have not completely ruled out getting a 22 yet as I am figuring all of my friends have the older models when they first introduced them and I'm thinking any bugs they had may be gone now. As for the Beretta I like my Model 85 Bersa and it would probably just become another safe queen if I bought a Beretta s doubt I will buy one now at age 70......


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## Craigh

aarondhgraham said:


> Collecting when one is a little OCD can be expensive.
> 
> .


Amen. brother! I certainly resemble that remark.

I gave away a lot of my firearms to family members a couple of summers ago when I thought I was close to my last mess call. Some of those, I still want to hold, but I thought I should start pairing down my collection when I had the mentality to know who should get what. Here it is a short time later, and I've added more and more. Not anywhere close to as many as I had, but darnit, give me time. :smt033


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## Bersaguy

I just updated my avatar. The all black in the first 380 Thunder I ever bought and as you can see in the picture it does have some leather rash because unless I know I am going to be in a bad area it is my EDC along with a couple back up mags in a cell phone case on my belt. Phone case keeps them completely covered out of sight and most folks would just think it's a cell phone. I do carry the Model 85 with 1 back up mag in phone case but only if I am going to someplace I have not been before.


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## Bisley

I can't get excited by .380's, especially in a frame the same size or larger than what you can have a 9x19 in. Recoil doesn't bother me much until I get past .44 magnum in a handgun or .30-06 in a rifle, and that is the only reason I can see for going with .380. Of course, I wasn't very impressed with 9mm either, until they started making 147 grain HP's that would expand properly in a subcompact, so I may just be a little hard-headed. Still, while I understand that the .380 bullet performance has improved on a par with the 9x19 bullets, it still doesn't have very good penetration, unless you shoot hardball ammo, which is what I do on the rare occasions when I carry my LCP.

There has always been a good argument for choosing expansion over penetration in the larger cartridge sizes, but that argument loses steam quickly when you get down to the .380 ACP chambering. I figure that choosing penetration over expansion, when shooting the .380, is likely to be more effective in more types of self-defense circumstances...as long as your shot placement is good. A hardcast lead or FMJ in .380 will penetrate heavy clothing, dense muscle, or bone, and still reach the vital organs, whereas a hollow point in .380 will start expanding at first resistance, and can expend its energy before reaching anything vital.

Of course, if you assume that you will put multiple rounds on target, that dilutes my argument, somewhat. But I tend to think that in the stressful situations that shooting in self defense is bound to create, you may fire multiple rounds and only make one good shot, and I want it to penetrate enough to do the job.


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## Craigh

Bisley said:


> I can't get excited by .380's, especially in a frame the same size or larger than what you can have a 9x19 in. Recoil doesn't bother me much until I get past .44 magnum in a handgun or .30-06 in a rifle, and that is the only reason I can see for going with .380. Of course, I wasn't very impressed with 9mm either, until they started making 147 grain HP's that would expand properly in a subcompact, so I may just be a little hard-headed. Still, while I understand that the .380 bullet performance has improved on a par with the 9x19 bullets, it still doesn't have very good penetration, unless you shoot hardball ammo, which is what I do on the rare occasions when I carry my LCP.
> 
> There has always been a good argument for choosing expansion over penetration in the larger cartridge sizes, but that argument loses steam quickly when you get down to the .380 ACP chambering. I figure that choosing penetration over expansion, when shooting the .380, is likely to be more effective in more types of self-defense circumstances...as long as your shot placement is good. A hardcast lead or FMJ in .380 will penetrate heavy clothing, dense muscle, or bone, and still reach the vital organs, whereas a hollow point in .380 will start expanding at first resistance, and can expend its energy before reaching anything vital.
> 
> Of course, if you assume that you will put multiple rounds on target, that dilutes my argument, somewhat. But I tend to think that in the stressful situations that shooting in self defense is bound to create, you may fire multiple rounds and only make one good shot, and I want it to penetrate enough to do the job.


That's been the enigma surrounding .380 recently. Do I shoot a defensive JHP or a more penetrating FMJ? I also don't often carry a .380 and only have the small LCP and a little LCP II, but I've chosen the hollow point round after some thought. I don't think I'm right, but think it's a personal compromise. In the gel tests I've seen, the .380 JHP seems to penetrate around 11 inches in the FBI medium of 4 sheets of denim and then the gel. The ball rounds seem to penetrate around 16 inches on the same test, sometimes a little less. So, I have to decide, is 11 inches with a large wound cavity better than 16 inches with a small wound cavity. I chose the former, but understand the latter. Shot placement trumps it all.


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## Bisley

Yeah, I have jumped back and forth on this quite a bit. Some people mix them, but I don't favor that. Mostly, I just carry a 9mm in a pocket gun, or a .45 ACP in a full sized holster carry. Sometimes, I go with a .45 pocket gun, if I've had recent practice with it. If I'm going to one of the grand kid's school functions, I just carry a 1" oak walking stick with a brass hame knob, a home made rig that is somewhat less obvious than carrying a baseball bat.


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## Bersaguy

Yep, there has been a lot of discussion over the years about the 380 caliber being enough in a self defense situation. If I feel threatened I would be happy with my Phoenix 22 semi-auto if I could not get to anything larger. The Phoenix Packs 11 rounds, 1 in the tube and 10 in the magazine and at 10 feet I will put all 11 rounds where ever I think they will do the most good. Anyone that would not respect a 22lr caliber pointed at them is a true idiot. But we are discussing 380 Calibers. Above all things bullet placement is probably the most important and probably the 1st two most critical. I learned a long time ago that one of the hardest things to do is control adrenaline and that rush a person gets when they feel endangered. That first couple seconds are probably the ones that will count the most because your adrenaline will be at max and you have to focus on your target. That of course is when you want a double barrel 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck but what you have is your hand gun. Make the first 2 rounds count and see what follows as to whether you need to shoot more. A 380 is just as capable of saving your life as a 1911 45 Colt if your put the first 2 rounds where they need to be...............JMHO


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## Craigh

Bersaguy said:


> A 380 is just as capable of saving your life as a 1911 45 Colt if your put the first 2 rounds where they need to be...............JMHO


Well, we can agree to disagree here. Though I agree using modern bullets, a .380 is capable of stopping if you are capable of putting the round where it needs to be, I don't believe it is as capable as most other defensive calibers. In your comparison with a 45 ACP, I think a well placed pumpkin ball will stop better and therefore more capable than the same well placed 380. So, that 1911 equipped man will have a better chance of saving his life.

What you want is to stop someone. Stop them from doing whatever they might be intending whether that's from killing you, raping a family member, or aggressively attacking with a sharpened stick. You want them to stop that, whatever it is. Unfortunately, nobody has really created some equation to actually measure stopping power, so we have to decide on our own. My measure is a combination of shot placement, wound channel, penetration, energy delivered, then add in intimidation factor to the mix. For my way of thinking, 45 ACP is a good way to accomplish a measure of all these factors. 22 Rimfire is a poor way. 380 just misses on several accounts including intimidation. 9mm and 40 SW are decent compromises, but I like 45 ACP the best.

Now the balance is concealability. With newer firearms like the 45 Shield, and other small 45s, it's becoming less of an issue. We now have to balance capacity and stopping power. We pick our poison and run with it. I just think more 380 pistols fail too much in all of these capabilities. Only 380 mouse guns have some advantage in concealability. A 380 Bersa, for example, fails on wound channel, penetration, energy delivered, and intimidation and fails to balance with much capacity or concealability over others, in my opinion. It's a nice handgun. As I get older, I'll probably carry something like it. I often carry my Makarov 9x18 even now. I do like it, but there you go. I don't think it's as capable on many various grounds.


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## Bersaguy

Craigh said:


> Well, we can agree to disagree here. Though I agree using modern bullets, a .380 is capable of stopping if you are capable of putting the round where it needs to be, I don't believe it is as capable as most other defensive calibers. In your comparison with a 45 ACP, I think a well placed pumpkin ball will stop better and therefore more capable than the same well placed 380. So, that 1911 equipped man will have a better chance of saving his life.
> 
> What you want is to stop someone. Stop them from doing whatever they might be intending whether that's from killing you, raping a family member, or aggressively attacking with a sharpened stick. You want them to stop that, whatever it is. Unfortunately, nobody has really created some equation to actually measure stopping power, so we have to decide on our own. My measure is a combination of shot placement, wound channel, penetration, energy delivered, then add in intimidation factor to the mix. For my way of thinking, 45 ACP is a good way to accomplish a measure of all these factors. 22 Rimfire is a poor way. 380 just misses on several accounts including intimidation. 9mm and 40 SW are decent compromises, but I like 45 ACP the best.
> 
> Now the balance is concealability. With newer firearms like the 45 Shield, and other small 45s, it's becoming less of an issue. We now have to balance capacity and stopping power. We pick our poison and run with it. I just think more 380 pistols fail too much in all of these capabilities. Only 380 mouse guns have some advantage in concealability. A 380 Bersa, for example, fails on wound channel, penetration, energy delivered, and intimidation and fails to balance with much capacity or concealability over others, in my opinion. It's a nice handgun. As I get older, I'll probably carry something like it. I often carry my Makarov 9x18 even now. I do like it, but there you go. I don't think it's as capable on many various grounds.


I use to carry a larger Caliber gun. I use to own a Bersa 40 Cal and I use to own a Tokarev (which I dearly loved) but as I got older I began to see I could not deal with recoil as well and was not as accurate as I once was. I seldom carried the Tokarev because of penetration and exit possibilities. That gun is powerful enough for the round to pass through a body and possibly kill an innocent person behind them. I do agree totally that a larger caliber gun does provide a certain amount more protection without a doubt. back years ago I was comfortable with my 40 Cal and Tokarev and for a short time I owned a 9mm towards the end when I realized my hand strenght and grip were fading and made the move to my 380's. I passed down all my big guns to my son and SIL with the stipulation that they pass them down when the time comes and they remain in the family.


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## Hanshi

Well, I am a .380 fan even though I've only owned one of them; it's the one I still own. It's a Walther PPK/S I bought at least 35 years ago. I also have a Manhurin .22LR PPK/S and a prewar PPK in 7.65. I rarely carry but would trust any of the three. I do have a little Kimber .45acp that I trust even more. I do always carry knives and walk with a cane, a good weapon for those trained in its use.


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## Craigh

For me and my older arthritic hands, a 45 ACP is softer shooting than a 380 mouse gun like my two LCP pistols. I find small subcompact 9x19 handguns to be more snappy than a commander size lightweight 45. For us older people these small guns are harder to rack and are less controllable without constant conditioning. For example, I love my M&P Shield 9mm, but it took quite a while to make this firearm geriatric friendly. An Apex system helped along with a gunsmith. I had to hand smooth much of it with Flitz over time including making the rails mirror smooth. The Shield magazines absolutely require an Uplula loader to fill them to capacity, I don't care who you are unless you like a sore thumb. Me thinks some of my macho friends fib a little. Without more strength and dexterity than I have, it's almost impossible to rack a live round from my LCP II. My son can do it with a strong and fast rack to the rear. I remove the magazine, lock it, turn the pistol upside down and shake it. I sometimes have to finger the live round out the magwell. Or I can shoot it to unload it which might be a poor way to go about it at home. 

The new Shield EZ 380 is larger, less potent and has a grip safety, I just won't purchase except in a 1911.


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## Bisley

I spent about 30 years wielding a machete for 8-10 hours on regular occasions, doing land surveying work in east Texas. So, I feel lucky to still have reasonably strong hands with no sign, yet, of arthritis (at least, in my hands). I'm quite sure it will show up, eventually, based on the rest of my framework.


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## Bersaguy

I was a certified Auto mechanic four 35 years and used my hands everyday and I am not 70 and I still have decent grip but not what I had when I went disbaled and could no longer work. I began losing my grip in about 5 years so I began squeezing a tennis ball while walking around the house to just maintain the grip I still had and it seems to have worked.


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## berettatoter

I think the Model 85 was one of Bersa's best pistols they ever made. I had bought one new, back in 1988, but sold it about mid 90's....stupid move. You just really can't find them anymore.


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## Craigh

Bisley said:


> I feel lucky to still have reasonably strong hands with no sign, yet, of arthritis (at least, in my hands). I'm quite sure it will show up, eventually, based on the rest of my framework.





Bersaguy said:


> I was a certified Auto mechanic four 35 years and used my hands everyday and I am not 70 and I still have decent grip but not what I had when I went disbaled and could no longer work. I began losing my grip in about 5 years so I began squeezing a tennis ball while walking around the house to just maintain the grip I still had and it seems to have worked.


I do some of these same exercises. I have a couple of those spring loaded hand devices as well as therabands. I also use dumbbells daily as part of my regimen. When a man exceeds somewhere around 60 or so, he needs to make sure he exercises certain areas, or he loses muscle mass. I've learned that twice after spending months on two occasions in a nursing home undergoing rehabilitation. One time, I was on my back or sitting with a PIC type IV in my shoulder 24/7 for around 7 weeks curing MRSA and MSSA infections. It's hard to imagine the muscle loss in that short of a time. It's big. It took over 8 weeks of rehab in a facility just to be able to walk with a cane or lift my laptop. When I got home, I no more could rack the slide of my trusty 1911, much less anything else. I can today, of course, but it requires constant working out over the past year and a half.

While in that nursing home, I saw a lot of other guys in our age range, just give up. I felt sorry for them. My physical therapist said it was more common then the guys like me, working hard at it.


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## AZdave

Went shooting recently with my nephew, an NRA instructor. It was in a state far far away, so we used his pistols. When he was done exhibiting the pistols he brought, over half were Bersa's the rest S&W's.

When done with practice I was shooting bullseye 's with the Bersa. I have to get one.


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## Bersaguy

berettatoter said:


> I think the Model 85 was one of Bersa's best pistols they ever made. I had bought one new, back in 1988, but sold it about mid 90's....stupid move. You just really can't find them anymore.


I do know it was their first double stack magazine gun and they did not cut any corners when they made it. Your right about finding them anywhere for sale. Any one that has one will not sell it. My will remain in my family when I'm gone as it will be passed down when the time comes. I will pass it down while I am still able to see the look on my sons face when he gets it. He has a S&W 9mm he carries now. He has shot the 85 several times and he said if he gets it he will retire the S&W and begin packing the 85.


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## berettatoter

I have no issues with my aluminum framed Thunders, but I miss the quality blued steel.


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## Bersaguy

berettatoter said:


> I have no issues with my aluminum framed Thunders, but I miss the quality blued steel.


I don't think there are very many gun makers left using a lot of blue steel in manufacturing hand guns but I also miss the steel guns.


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## Texasmade

I always find it amusing that people who knock .380's or even 22 magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one.


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## Bersaguy

Texasmade said:


> I always find it amusing that people who knock .380's or even 22 magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one.


I have a few buddys that are LEO's and they will be the first to tell you the gun they dislike having pointed at them is the 22 Mag. If it is not loaded with hollow points they said it could penetrate their vests. 22lrs use to be able to penetrate them a few years back but with new updates to vests they don't fear the 22 lr but still have great respeck for the 22 mag round. Like you said, many people don't give the 380's enough credit when it comes to self defense but I know damn well I don't want to get shot by one and I carry 1 every day.


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## desertman

Texasmade said:


> I always find it amusing that people who knock .380's or even 22 magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one.


I don't think you're gonna' find too many people volunteering to get shot with a .22 short or even a BB or pellet gun for that matter. But the fact still remains that both the .380 and .22 magnum are not the best choice for self defense. Especially if your potential assailant is pumped up on mind altering or pain killing drugs. In which case they may not even realize they've been shot. However they are arguably better than nothing. I say arguably because if your potential assailant is not incapacitated he may be pissed off enough at you for shooting him that he may very well end up beating the shit outtta' you, grabbing your gun and using it on you. Unless of course you're fortunate enough to drill a few into their eye sockets, sever an aorta or strike a main artery. More than likely in the event of an attack you're not gonna' have that much time to react in order to place carefully aimed shots as you would if you are target shooting. I had a cousin who's not surprisingly dead now that was in prison for manslaughter. After he got out, he once told me that for the most part hardened criminals are not afraid of guns or of being shot, it all goes along with their territory. That they have an uncanny sense of whether or not someone will have the guts to shoot them or not. Let alone staring down the barrel of a small caliber handgun in a shaky hand.

There are so many .9mm semi auto's that come in all weights, shapes, sizes and configurations including a few revolvers out in the market place that it really makes no sense to carry anything less. The .9mm is a very easy round to master especially in a full or mid size gun. Even the sub compact "nines" are not that difficult to master and are not that much larger than a .380 as far as concealability is concerned. No one can accurately predict who they may confront during a stressful self defense situation or the circumstances they may find themselves in. In which case you want to have the most effective round that you can shoot accurately. The .9mm certainly fulfills that need. That's probably why it's the most popular selling handgun and round on the market today. That's why it is the chosen caliber for most of the nations law enforcement and military agencies as it is the easiest round to train with for people of all strengths and sizes.

Myself? I never go anywhere without a .45 ACP, most of the time a Glock G30. I have handguns in just about every caliber from .22 long to .44 magnum both revolver's and semi auto's only because I'm one of those "bitter clingers" or a certified "gun nut" who's interested in handguns of all calibers, shapes and sizes.


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## Steve M1911A1

Nobody wants to be shot. By anything. Ever.
The statement, "I always find it amusing that people who knock .380s or even .22 Magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one," is silly because the real issue is not being wounded by a bullet, but rather it is instantly stopping an attack.

Neither the .380 nor any sort of .22 rimfire is a sure and certain attack stopper, which is why knowledgeable people "knock" them. But getting hurt by one is an experiment that intelligent people do their best to avoid.

Although I carry a .380 now, I know that I am a good enough shot, even under serious pressure, to be able to stop an attack with one. It may take several hits to do the job, but do the job it will.
I'd rather have the .45 that I carried for many years, but my arthritic hands can no longer use it effectively. So I'm stuck with a .380 ACP, and I know how to use it.


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## Bersaguy

"That they have an uncanny sense of whether or not someone will have the guts to shoot them or not. Let alone staring down the barrel of a small caliber handgun in a shaky hand." took that from desertmans post. 
The bad guy thinks they always have the element of surprise and some times they do but a person such as myself, I am pretty much aware of whats going on around me 95% of the time. As far as looking down the barrel of a small Caliber the diameter of the 380 is the same diameter as the 9mm so barrel is same size. Bullet just has less powder pushing it. That is why they refer to the 380 as the short 9mm. As far as guts to shoot them. Maybe not in all cases but in my case They will get shot and it won't be my first rodeo. Learned how to kill people in Nam. Ain't forgot how and that goes for the shanky hands to. My hand would be still and ready to put at least 5 rounds where they need to go as fast as I can which would be less than 4 seconds from 1st to 5th. I carried a Colt 45 in Nam and used it often. I have often wondered why people always think bigger is always better in firearms. I have probably owned or shot most every caliber hand gun made at on time or another and I just think if you are comfortable with what you shoot and you shoot it well then you are protected...........JMHO


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## Craigh

Texasmade said:


> I always find it amusing that people who knock .380's or even 22 magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one.


I always find it amusing that people who support .380's or even 22 magnums for self defense often suggest because someone doesn't volunteer to be shot by one, their opinions are not valid.

Otherwise, I concur with both Desertman and Steve1911. I volunteer NOT to be shot with a BB gun. Still, I'm NOT a proponent of a BB gun being a viable choice for personal defense.


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## desertman

Bersaguy said:


> "That they have an uncanny sense of whether or not someone will have the guts to shoot them or not. Let alone staring down the barrel of a small caliber handgun in a shaky hand." took that from desertmans post.
> The bad guy thinks they always have the element of surprise and some times they do but a person such as myself, I am pretty much aware of whats going on around me 95% of the time. As far as looking down the barrel of a small Caliber the diameter of the 380 is the same diameter as the 9mm so barrel is same size. Bullet just has less powder pushing it. That is why they refer to the 380 as the short 9mm. As far as guts to shoot them. Maybe not in all cases but in my case They will get shot and it won't be my first rodeo. Learned how to kill people in Nam. Ain't forgot how and that goes for the shanky hands to. My hand would be still and ready to put at least 5 rounds where they need to go as fast as I can which would be less than 4 seconds from 1st to 5th. I carried a Colt 45 in Nam and used it often. *I have often wondered why people always think bigger is always better in firearms.* I have probably owned or shot most every caliber hand gun made at on time or another and I just think if you are comfortable with what you shoot and you shoot it well then you are protected...........JMHO


Because bigger is better, of course a lot depends on how well you can handle it. What good is a .45 if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it? But there's no question about it a large caliber handgun is a lot more intimidating than any mouse gun no matter what caliber it is. I too have owned and shot every caliber handgun up to the .44 Magnum. I still own all of them. Of the smaller caliber guns, I bought them only because I like them but never seriously considered carrying them for self defense. As I am pretty good with a .45 and have taken numerous defensive handgun courses. When I was referring to someone with a shaky hand, I'm referring to the average person who doesn't have that much experience with firearms. The types of people who buy a firearm for self defense but never take into consideration what they would do if they ever had to use one. For them it is a false sense of security. I know some of them and I have my doubts as to whether they could pull the trigger or not. They think that just the presence of a gun is enough to scare someone who has evil intent.

As for my cousin, he wasn't your average street thug out there mugging, stealing from people or even committing petty crimes. He was small in stature but had a short fuse and was not the type to take any shit from anyone no matter who they were or how big they are. He ended up getting into a bar fight and stabbed some guy to death for which he was charged and sentenced to prison for aggravated assault and manslaughter. He knew that I was into guns, and he told me a lot about life behind bars and the types of individuals he did time with. But the one thing that really stuck in my mind was that criminals are not the least bit afraid of guns and if you're gonna' carry one you'd better be damned well prepared and ready to use it. When he got out he was angry at the world, couldn't get a job, got involved with drugs and that's what eventually did him in.

I often go out into the desert and fill a bunch of empty water bottles with sand, line them up and practice shooting at them with different caliber handguns. Kinda' like those bowling pin shoots. When you hit them with the smaller caliber weapons the bottles hardly move. Hitting them with the .45's and you really know you're hitting something. I guess that's why I'm convinced that bigger is better as long as you can hit with it and handle it. The .44 Magnums are overkill and a lot harder to control, but any serious "gun nut" has to have at least one. I estimate I've put a few thousand full power rounds through mine. If for no other reason than to feel the power and concussion from the muzzle blast course thru my body. Those were the good old days, I've gotten over that and rarely shoot them any more. I'd never consider one for self defense unless I'm using .44 Specials in which case a .45 semi auto holds more rounds and is more of a practical choice.


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## Steve M1911A1

A big, heavy bullet travelling relatively slowly (_e.g._, the .45 ACP) will almost always stop within its, um, target and deliver _all_ of its energy in one fight-stopping place...assuming that you made an effective hit.

A lighter, faster bullet (_e.g._, the .357 Magnum) will, often enough, continue on through, leaving much less fight-stopping energy behind in that, um, target.

A small, light, slow bullet (_e.g._, the .380 ACP) will deliver all of its energy, but it has to be placed very accurately and effectively in order to immediately stop a fight...or there has to be a whole lot of them in the delivery.

Those three dicta have been modified, recently, through better bullet design. Now, all three can make effective, fight-stopping hits...if they are carefully placed.


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## Bisley

Texasmade said:


> I always find it amusing that people who knock .380's or even 22 magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one.


When people criticize the .380, they are not necessarily attacking those who like them (naturally, there _are_ some that do, but not all). Nearly all people who like to shoot guns will usually like to shoot _any_ gun, however effective it may or may not be as a last ditch effort to save their lives. Most of us just feel an obligation towards those who need, or think they need a gun, but don't necessarily love shooting guns...and that applies to a large number of people, some of whom will seek out a place like this, briefly, just to confirm that they are doing the right thing. Some will ask their questions respectfully and just leave when they have had their questions answered, whereas some will blow in and pretend to be experts, and will leave when their BS has been debunked. A few will learn a lot, and hang on because they have made a connection with a few nice and sensible folks, whose 'company' they enjoy. The responses that all of these three groups get to their posts will usually be proportionate in tone to the posts they make.

Surely, you will admit that a great many people wrongly choose a .380 because they have shot one in a large enough platform that recoil was fairly mild, and yet still small enough and light enough for a relatively comfortable concealment weapon. I have been to three classes for concealed carry certification and, at each one, seen people who had no experience choose a Walther PPK sized weapon in .380 to borrow for the test, and then express the desire to buy one. That's just fine, as long as they understand that they have to use the right ammo (different from the practice ammo that they just fired) and hit a small target while under extreme duress (also not replicated by their single range experience). Sprinting a hundred yards, then stopping quickly to shoot at a small target is a drill that is sometimes used by trainers to simulate the stress level that a person might experience, if attacked.

I personally believe that most sensible folks will eventually agree that the slightly greater margin of error that a more powerful round affords is worth the extra weight and larger 'carry footprint.' But that's just my opinion, worth every penny that you paid for it.


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## Craigh

Well, a whole lot of very small caliber projectiles does fairly well as a fight stopper. I'm thinking in terms of my turkey 12 gauge with 3 inch magnum 2x6 shot at in-home distances with no screw in choke in place, so cylinder bore. Lots of relatively small bullets all heading to the same target along with a piece of hot smoking plastic. Won't spread much, but should make a fist size fight-stopping hole in that target, whoever it might be who thought it was a good idea to come inside uninvited at 2 AM.

Sorry, just a fun reply.


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## Bersaguy

Well I am sure everyone has a preference as what is best for them and self defense. Back several years ago I use to pack a heavy caliber side arm. It was a Tokerav 762x25 and I was always concerned with 1 thing and that was the ammo I was forced to use. Russian Military loads was about the only thing around and I had like 4000 rounds for it. I actually had two different ranges tell me I could not shoot it in their range. I dearly loved it so much I bought a second one along with 2 more 2500 round spam cans of ammo. couldn't beat the price back them $69.00 a can. Every time me and a few friends went shooting at one of the accepted ranges all of them wanted to shoot the Tok. I finally reached that point where even a good two handed grip from me was not enough to continue shooting them with any accuracy Frst round was always perfect but ollow up rounds not so good. I finally passed them down to Son and Son in law and they will stay in the family. Some ammo companies began making more modern ammo for them that is much safer to shoot without wondering were the round landed and what it passed threw. Both of them bought some of the modern ammo and now just used the Russian stuff for practice. They both live in the country and both have built burm ranges in the sides of a hill on their property to be safe when shooting them. So I have shot and owned some pretty powerful hand guns but at age 70 and just coming out of hospital in January from triple by-pass heart surgery and have a body that is held together mesh, screws and pins I will stick with my 380's for now...........JMHO


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## AZdave

@Bersaguy

Thanks for your service and comments. I hope you get healed up ok. 

Turning old is not for sissies.:mrgreen:


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## desertman

Bisley said:


> *When people criticize the .380, they are not necessarily attacking those who like them (naturally, there are some that do, but not all). Nearly all people who like to shoot guns will usually like to shoot any gun, however effective it may or may not be as a last ditch effort to save their lives.* Most of us just feel an obligation towards those who need, or think they need a gun, but don't necessarily love shooting guns...and that applies to a large number of people, some of whom will seek out a place like this, briefly, just to confirm that they are doing the right thing. Some will ask their questions respectfully and just leave when they have had their questions answered, whereas some will blow in and pretend to be experts, and will leave when their BS has been debunked. A few will learn a lot, and hang on because they have made a connection with a few nice and sensible folks, whose 'company' they enjoy. The responses that all of these three groups get to their posts will usually be proportionate in tone to the posts they make.
> 
> Surely, you will admit that a great many people wrongly choose a .380 because they have shot one in a large enough platform that recoil was fairly mild, and yet still small enough and light enough for a relatively comfortable concealment weapon. I have been to three classes for concealed carry certification and, at each one, seen people who had no experience choose a Walther PPK sized weapon in .380 to borrow for the test, and then express the desire to buy one. That's just fine, as long as they understand that they have to use the right ammo (different from the practice ammo that they just fired) and hit a small target while under extreme duress (also not replicated by their single range experience). Sprinting a hundred yards, then stopping quickly to shoot at a small target is a drill that is sometimes used by trainers to simulate the stress level that a person might experience, if attacked.
> 
> I personally believe that most sensible folks will eventually agree that the slightly greater margin of error that a more powerful round affords is worth the extra weight and larger 'carry footprint.' But that's just my opinion, worth every penny that you paid for it.


I think you did a pretty good job of explaining how most of us feel.


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## berettatoter

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Nobody wants to be shot. By anything. Ever.
> The statement, "I always find it amusing that people who knock .380s or even .22 Magnums for self defense never volunteer to be shot by one," is silly because the real issue is not being wounded by a bullet, but rather it is instantly stopping an attack.
> 
> Neither the .380 nor any sort of .22 rimfire is a sure and certain attack stopper, which is why knowledgeable people "knock" them. But getting hurt by one is an experiment that intelligent people do their best to avoid.
> 
> Although I carry a .380 now, I know that I am a good enough shot, even under serious pressure, to be able to stop an attack with one. It may take several hits to do the job, but do the job it will.
> I'd rather have the .45 that I carried for many years, but my arthritic hands can no longer use it effectively. So I'm stuck with a .380 ACP, and I know how to use it.


Sucks getting old, don't it?


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## Steve M1911A1

berettatoter said:


> Sucks getting old, don't it?


There's a 16-year-old in our neighborhood who does odd jobs for us, one day a week.
We hired him because I now have trouble moving wood (to heat the house) from our woodshed down to our kitchen porch. He does it easily and quickly...and cheaply...for us.

He and I were talking about getting older, and I said that it would be good to avoid getting older, if at all possible.
He responded that, from his experience, it wouldn't be any better to get younger, either.

Obviously, I like his sense of humor.


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## Bersaguy

AZdave said:


> @Bersaguy
> 
> Thanks for your service and comments. I hope you get healed up ok.
> 
> Turning old is not for sissies.:mrgreen:


I have said that statement several times over the years and it is true. Getting old is not for Sissies but thing is at one time or another all of us will get old. Whether a person is a Sissie when they get old remains anyones guess. I know a gentleman that lives a few doors down from me that is 92 and I can promise you he is not a Sissie. He is crisp and still packs a colt 1911 around the house and out in the yard. About 3 months ago we took him with us to the range and I was not expecting to see what I saw but when that 45 cleared his holster he sent 8 rounds down range with almost pin point accuracy and all 8 were center mass at 20 feet. I can't shoot that good at 70 with a 380 Caliber. I have set and talked with him several times and he says getting old is all in your head and if you tell yourself your old then you will be old. That made total sense to me so I try to tell myself I'm not as old as I feel. Sometimes it works and sometimes my body just says NO!!!


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## AZdave

Turning old does beat the alternative.


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## Bersaguy

AZdave said:


> Turning old does beat the alternative.


 I Guess it does but only if you fear death. Over the years and with the things I have seen in my life I have learned to fear life more than death. I have see things much worse than death and in those cases I would welcome death. I have a friend right now that has been sick for sometime and is right now in Hospice Care and has been for over a month. They said he would be dead a month ago and just abot every thing in his body has quit working. He can't talk, eat, drink but they say he still has brain activity and his heart is still beating so he is alive. He was taken off Life Support 2 weeks ago.
I am sorry for his wife that has been by his side watching all he is going through and helpless to do anything. I don't ever want to be in that shape and that is why I fear life more than death.


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## mobile 155

Why I like the 380 Bersa.

I may be new here but I see we have some things in common. Like many of you I have been shooting for many years and I have morphed a bit in what I like to carry and why. Back in the day before the military I shot a boat load of Smiths and Colts in 4 inch 38sp. Joined a club and shot at least one a week for two years. Decided I had to have a model 28 S&W 357 with a 6 inch barrel when I worked security and was in college. At the time I thought the 357 was the perfect gun. Plus I could burn 38s for practice. I tried some auto loaders back then but as common wisdom "used to be", I worried about jams. Yes I know these debates and preferences have been going on for years just admitting I was right there when it was a lot hotter topic than it seems to be today. 
. 
The first Auto loader I ever lusted for was the Browning Highpower when it came out. Never got one but was able to shoot one a few times before I went into the army. During the time I served I learned to love the 1911. Yes the military 1911s were a bit sloppy but they were dependable and I also liked the idea of the big slow bullet punching a hole in the target in the hopes the target wouldn't shoot back if I had to use it. Yes I had read the legend of how they would knock down charging Moro warriors trying to jump in trenches. I also became very loyal to the 45 because I was used to it. 

When the 1911 was replaced by the M-92 I was shocked. I simply couldn't see how the military and police would be willing to give up the stopping power of the 45 for a 9mm. Still going to the range after I got out of the military I still loved my somewhat better put together 1911 to my friends 9mm. Still liked my 357 better but back then I didn't carry anymore so I could haul my guns to the range in a box and spend the day shooting at my leisure.

The years go by and I was no longer as young nor did I feel as confident I could protect myself or my family in a society that seemed insistent on mugging, car jacking, home invading and yes just regular robbery. I wanted a CCW and I started looking for a good concealed carry gun. The 1911 was just too big for a summer carry gun in my state. There were some 357 wheel guns that might work except for hiding in very warm weather with light weight shirts. 

My experience is getting the first shot and follow up shots on target and center mass is a whole lot easier with a gun that has less recoil. I know that is a given but I am explaining. When I was trying to pick a gun to hide and qualify for a ccw I took a 380, 357, 9mm and 45acp. the 357 and the 45 are hard to conceal. Plus it was hard to draw and fire 6 or seven rounds center mass from a buzzer induced draw. At 20 feet it is easier for me to acquire the target and empty a magazine all in the nine ring with the 380 that with the 45 or a 357 wheel gun. I am not talking stand and slow fire I am talking draw, shoot twice, holster and draw again. 

By the end of a hour session, for me only, I can qualify the 380 and 9mm a lot faster than the 357 or the 45. The gun itself is a lot lighter and both my carry guns fit my hand well. The Bersa is my summer gun and the 9mm the other three seasons. Both are simple to field strip and clean. 

I know I was long winded for a introduction.


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## John k

Hi I am new to forum . I am looking for a slide stop for the llla 380 . if any onw can help me I would appreciate it . you can email me directly at [email protected] com thanks


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## Rancid

I have a Thunder Plus 380 and a Llama Micro Max and LOVE THEM BOTH! Both gobble up Underwood Xtreme Defender and Xtreme Penetrator ammo like candy, which puts them right in there with a standard 9mm. The MicroMax is SO CUTE .... I am a HUGE 1911 fan and the MicroMax is like a cute little puppy with a serious bite.


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## Rancid

My Bersa Thunder 380 Plus lives in my vest pocket as backup to whatever I am packing on my belt. It has proven to be ultra-reliable, and loaded with alternating Underwood Xtreme Defender and Xtreme Penetrator rounds will most definitely get the job done ... and gives me 16 rounds to do it.

My little Llama MicroMax 380 is my nightstand gun and is all I will use for in-home self-defense, loaded only with Xtreme Defender ammo (don't relish patching sheet rock and buying a new TV set) and it will also most definitely get the job done. Also has proven to be ultra-reliable (what 1911 isn't?).

When out and about, on my belt is a 357. And if our world really turns to the stuff you wipe away with toilet paper, it will be my 1911 45ACP and four spare magazines, a proven "battle gun".


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## Usafammo3

aarondhgraham said:


> *Firefox???*
> 
> *Hello Bersaguy.*
> 
> Not to nit-pick,,,
> But that gun you call a Firefox,,,
> Isn't it's proper name the *Firestorm*?
> 
> Firefox was a Jet Fighter that Clint Eastwood stole from the Russians.
> It's also an internet browser.
> 
> *Hello craigh.*
> 
> The Model 85 he is referring to is a Beretta Cheetah,,,
> Looks just like a Beretta M9 but slightly smaller.
> 
> Click here please.
> 
> I own a Bersa Thunder 380 which is a very fine handgun,,,
> I also own a Ruger LCP which is a useabal handgun,,,
> 
> But the Beretta 85 I own is a fantastic handgun.
> 
> At 8+1 it's capacity could be better,,,
> But it's still just a fantastic gun.
> 
> Here are the Bersa and the Beretta side by side.
> 
> View attachment 14665
> 
> 
> Aarond
> 
> .


Had that Beretta model years ago. It was pristine- was bought new by a friend's dad around 1980 and put up until 1995. Was basically new when I got it for a steal. Didn't realize how nice it was and how much I liked it until after I sold it. Wish I had it back every day since...Only 3 guns I wish I didn't sell and that's one.


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## berettatoter

Rancid said:


> My Bersa Thunder 380 Plus lives in my vest pocket as backup to whatever I am packing on my belt. It has proven to be ultra-reliable, and loaded with alternating Underwood Xtreme Defender and Xtreme Penetrator rounds will most definitely get the job done ... and gives me 16 rounds to do it.
> 
> My little Llama MicroMax 380 is my nightstand gun and is all I will use for in-home self-defense, loaded only with Xtreme Defender ammo (don't relish patching sheet rock and buying a new TV set) and it will also most definitely get the job done. Also has proven to be ultra-reliable (what 1911 isn't?).
> 
> When out and about, on my belt is a 357. And if our world really turns to the stuff you wipe away with toilet paper, it will be my 1911 45ACP and four spare magazines, a proven "battle gun".


Bersa makes a good little pistol. I don't own one now, but have had three in the past...never had any problems with them.


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## Lcorona

Bersaguy said:


> I love about any quality 380 Caliber made. I actually have 7 380 Caliber guns. 3 Thunders in different styles, 1 pride & joy Model 85, Firefox a real sweetheart Llama, 1 LCP and had close double in a S&W Bodyguard and a very close friend of mine had the model 85! Well, he new how bad I wanted that 85 he had but would not sell it to me. When I showed him the Bodyguard I had purchased from a friend he made a bid to buy it and I just laughed. Not because the bid was low because it was well above what I gave for it but because I knew he was wanting a Bodyguard for sometime. I told him it was not for sale. Now this is one of my very best friends we are talking about! He was over at my place about every morning for coffee and biscuits. Well the following day he came for coffee as usual and we were talking when he reached on his left side and out of a holster came the 85 and he laid it on the table. I didn't say anything, just got up and went to the gun safe and got the Bodyguard out, went back to the table. Laid it on the table, he picked it up and put it in is jacket pocket and I took the 85 and locked it in the safe and during this time no words were exchanged. We finished our coffee and biscuits, He got up and asked if I happen to have a few 380 rounds layin around I had not planned on using so I went and got him a box of Fiocchi's and handed them to him so he could stop at the range on the way home. I had previously got to shoot the 85 about a month earlier so I knew how it shot. He was happy and I was thrilled cause I finally had a model 85 I had been wanting for years.............:smt041


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## Lcorona

Happy to know another Model 85 owner, I only have two Bersa's, on is the Firestorm and of course, the Model 85, anyway, would you know if a holster for Thunder 380 plus, would work with the Model 85? Appreciate any input from anyone. Thank you.


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## berettatoter

Lcorona said:


> Happy to know another Model 85 owner, I only have two Bersa's, on is the Firestorm and of course, the Model 85, anyway, would you know if a holster for Thunder 380 plus, would work with the Model 85? Appreciate any input from anyone. Thank you.


Well, I did a search, and I cannot find any definitive answer.


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