# Interesting twist in "Caliber vs Placement"



## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

For those wondering "How good IS .40 compared to 9mm or .45?", this recent article even pulls into question "Shot placement". The "Great Debate" of caliber over placement just got muddied up a bit. 17 Center Mass hits. Just for those that don't read the linked article, toxicology revealed only trace amount of alcohol. Not whacked out on PCP, Meth, Cocaine or much of anything else it appears.

Of course part of this looks much like the 'North Hollywood shootout' in that the officer "fell back on his training". Center mass shots (though in the NHS went into double body armor) didn't stop the suspect/assaillant. Perhaps hip or head shots might've, but understandably are not taught as the target area is generally smaller and harder to hit, not to mention the higher risk of a miss or over-penetration to anyone/anything behind the target.

I'm still going with my P228 dressed with TFO's and loaded 17+1 in 147gr HydraShoks.........with *two spare* mags on the opposite hip. Here is the article: http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Although it is a good example of why a person shouldn't expect one or two shots to stop a determined assailant, I don't think it's necessarily a sign that the .40 is a bad round, or that the officer's marksmanship was poor. Consider that many of the rounds almost certainly passed through intermediate barriers, robbing the bullets of velocity and possible closing-up the hollowpoints, preventing expansion. Check these excerpts, and my comments in parenthesis:

"Soulis was shooting back now, pumping rounds through the windshield into his assailant." (Windshield glass is one of the toughest barriers for a bullet to overcome; often, it damages the integrity of a bullet, making expansion performance somewhat iffy, at best.)

"Palmer was scurrying back and forth down the driver's side of the Toyota, shrieking with rage and stopping sporadically to fire, but Soulis was more patient. He held his fire, waited for Palmer's head to pop into view, and then took a shot each time it appeared. Although Soulis knew he was getting hits, Palmer seemed impervious to his gunfire." (He was shooting at his head, but the article mentioned center-of-mass hits, and no head hits, which probably would have stopped the fight more quickly; therefore, any/most hits he made during this time probably also passed through the vehicle's bodywork/glass and hit the assailant in the body.)

"Soulis stopped and fired two rounds through the back window. The first missed, but the second hit Palmer in the upper back, driving his head forward into the steering wheel. That seemed to have done the trick, but then Palmer sat up again, dropped the transmission into reverse, and started backing up. With no time to ponder how Palmer had absorbed so many hits, Soulis took aim and emptied the magazine into his assailant." (More shots through glass, and it's very difficult to hit someone seated in a vehicle in the "upper back", from the rear, without the bullet going through one or more seats; more barrier-breaching for the bullets.)

In fact, the only good, solid hits the officer scored in exchange were mentioned in the following passage of the article. Even discounting ALL the rest, one would hope that these would have been enough, but apparently not:

"Soulis knew he'd have trouble tracking Palmer if he came around that way, so he decided to make his move without delay. He lunged out from behind the car, thrust the Glock up into firing position, and opened fire. His first two rounds hit Palmer center chest, rocking him back on his heels. Palmer flinched as two more rounds hit center mass, and then started backpedaling toward the Toyota." 

The perp also had a major advantage in that he KNEW he was about to be involved in a gunfight; he had time to boost his adrenaline and psych himself up for the coming battle. When you take into account that 13 of the 17 hits MIGHT have been made with compromised, reduced-velocity bullets, then the lack of incapacitation doesn't sound quite so bad. Still, not what most of us might envision, and certainly not what the officer wanted, but it's not as if the bad guy stood there like Superman and soaked-up 17 full-power .40 shots in the torso.


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## Blackmagic14 (Nov 7, 2008)

you know me personally, I have never understood why this is even an argument. The whole caliber over placement thing is ridiculous If I am "as good" with my .45 as you are with your 9mm then who has a better shot of winning? Argument OVER!!!

Close this thread please LOL


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

Dead is dead.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

As Mike Barham has said on numerous occasions... Pistols are "puny" weapons, ill equipt to stop a man with one shot. Rifles do that. Buckshot does that, pistols, no matter the caliber, most often do not.

Does that me carrying a pistol is useless? NO. Better a pistol than a rock, and I cannot carry my 870 concealed...

Just don't expect to blow a guy across the room, one-shot movie-style and be done with the fight. Unless your first shot takes out his spine (1 in 100 likelihood on a ducking, moving, shooting target), it's most likely gonna take a lot of hits, if the opposition is EXPECTING a fight to the death.

JW


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