# Mouse guns



## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

I recently read an article by Massad Ayoob in the latest, “Combat Handguns” magazine entitled, “Mouse Guns In Court”. It was an interesting article about small caliber handguns and their often times ineffectiveness as a defense weapon and the liability of it in a court defense. Good article if your trying to decide on a CCW gun.

I also saw, “Dateline” last night and they had a story about a guy that killed his wife with a .22. He also shot himself four times to make it appear to be a robbery. He shot himself in each shoulder, under his right nipple and through his hand. Neither shot caused significant damage but could have if they had hit a major artery.

I personally tend to believe the guys story about a robbery but a jury of his peers found him guilty.

What’s your thoughts on Mouse Guns for backups?


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## Hal8000 (May 8, 2006)

Better than a sharp stick!

Maybe...


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

M.Ayoob is a expert gun handler no question about that. I have a little trouble with the flair that he puts in his writings. You have to be able to slice the truth from the dramatics. IMHO.


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

Hal8000 said:


> Better than a sharp stick!
> 
> Maybe...


True, but if your going to carry you might as well carry something with a little stopage power. I have a little .25 but I'd only carry it as a backup to my CCW carry.


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## Maximo (May 26, 2006)

I have to DEEP conceal at work so I had to get a mouse gun. I went with the Radom P64. Cheap, reliable, very accurate, and is chambered in 9X18 Makarov so it has a good deal more punch than the .22 I was looking at before I found the P64. Any gun is better that nothing (Usually) but I switch to one of my main carry guns as soon as I leave work. I live close to work so I allways go home and change cloths and guns before I go anywhere else. I don't like to leave a gun in the car unless I must so the inexpensive P64 is a great option for when I have to leave my gun in the car. Here is a pic of my P64.


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## Maximo (May 26, 2006)

Baldy said:


> M.Ayoob is a expert gun handler no question about that. I have a little trouble with the flair that he puts in his writings. You have to be able to slice the truth from the dramatics. IMHO.


I agree. M. Ayoob is not doubt a true expert but he is also a bit of an alarmist, and if you read too much of his stuff at once you may become afraid to even carry a gun because of the way he writes about court cases.


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## Grayfox (Jul 14, 2006)

Everybody should have a gun for those times when they can't carry a gun. 
Sometimes social situations, clothing or whatever dictates that your normal or primary weapon stays home. This is where a mouse gun comes in handy. I have a little .25 acp just for these times.
However, you must know its limitations. Two things to bear in mind. First, the purpose of a defensive weapon is not to kill your attacker. Its purpose is to save your life. Second, small caliber firearms require a change in tactics.
These small guns are intended to be used at bad breath distances. So forget center mass. Torso shots with a mouse gun are questionable anyway. Instead, stick the gun right in the BGs face and pull the trigger. Several times. Then while he's disoriented, bleeding and in pain, RUN LIKE HELL!
Sure, there's a chance one of your bullets will find its way through an eye socket or nasal cavity and into the brain, but don't count on it. Let the cops worry about picking up the pieces. Your only concern at this point is survival.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

+1 a million times with Grayfox.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Grayfox said:


> Everybody should have a gun for those times when they can't carry a gun.
> Sometimes social situations, clothing or whatever dictates that your normal or primary weapon stays home. This is where a mouse gun comes in handy. I have a little .25 acp just for these times.
> However, you must know its limitations. Two things to bear in mind. First, the purpose of a defensive weapon is not to kill your attacker. Its purpose is to save your life. Second, small caliber firearms require a change in tactics.
> These small guns are intended to be used at bad breath distances. So forget center mass. Torso shots with a mouse gun are questionable anyway. Instead, stick the gun right in the BGs face and pull the trigger. Several times. Then while he's disoriented, bleeding and in pain, RUN LIKE HELL!
> Sure, there's a chance one of your bullets will find its way through an eye socket or nasal cavity and into the brain, but don't count on it. Let the cops worry about picking up the pieces. Your only concern at this point is survival.


Yes, I agree w/ what ya said...


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

The smallest gun I carry is a .380 (KelTec P3AT). It fulfills the First Rule of Gunfighting: HAVE A GUN. However, compared to even a mini-Glock, it basically sucks as a fighting tool. Small sights, kicks harder, long trigger, not much to hang onto, etc.

I tend to laugh at the idea that just because you have "mouse gun" the circumstances of your fight will change. News flash: in a defensive shooting your opponent - not you - determines the conditions of the fight. So just because you have a peashooter does not mean that your opponent won't be hiding behind cover taking potshots at you with an AK, or bobbing and weaving to deny you an easy headshot.

It's better than having nothing, certainly, and I can carry the little P3AT when I can't for reasons of discretion have my Glock. But I can't set the terms and conditions of the fight, so I have the Glock with me whenever I can. Given a choice, I'd have an M4, but I can only do that when I'm at home or in military uniform.

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## Maximo (May 26, 2006)

Grayfox said:


> Everybody should have a gun for those times when they can't carry a gun.
> Sometimes social situations, clothing or whatever dictates that your normal or primary weapon stays home. This is where a mouse gun comes in handy. I have a little .25 acp just for these times.
> However, you must know its limitations. Two things to bear in mind. First, the purpose of a defensive weapon is not to kill your attacker. Its purpose is to save your life. Second, small caliber firearms require a change in tactics.
> These small guns are intended to be used at bad breath distances. So forget center mass. Torso shots with a mouse gun are questionable anyway. Instead, stick the gun right in the BGs face and pull the trigger. Several times. Then while he's disoriented, bleeding and in pain, RUN LIKE HELL!
> Sure, there's a chance one of your bullets will find its way through an eye socket or nasal cavity and into the brain, but don't count on it. Let the cops worry about picking up the pieces. Your only concern at this point is survival.


I don't think I could agree more. :smt023


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## michael t (Jan 26, 2006)

I stopped reading Massad Ayoob every month the sky falling and you going to court if you have a mouse gun, a hicap mag ,a SA trigger, a DA/SA . a auto a rev. enough already. Many states are changing the laws so you won't in up in court. I hope he has a 2nd job because he might be out of work. I also noticed he never tested a gun he didn't like.
'I just remembered He tested a TP-22 years ago and liked it for a small carry gun. Gee isn't a 22a mouse cal.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

+1
I figured out years ago that ayoob is a walking contradiction and not worth the price of any gun rag for HIS articles. My .02


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## BerettaMan (Feb 4, 2006)

tnoisaw, I found him guilty because:
1) He recently took out a life insurance policy on his wife.
2) He tried drowning her first, THEN he dragged her unconsious to the boardwalk and shot her there. I believed the blood spatter theory and the foaming mouth therory.
3) He had a girlfriend.
4) He had recently surfed the internet looking for information about non lethal gunshot wounds to the chest.
5) His gunshot wounds were at angles that were inconsistant with his story about being attacked by another person.
Just my .02
P.S. I carry a 3032 Tomcat as my BUG.


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