# Defense Rounds for your 1911



## utmiken (Feb 22, 2008)

What self defense rounds are you guys using? I'd like to hear preferences if price were no problem. The PowerBalls look very interesting but have never tried them.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

I'm comfortable with any of the current 230-grain hollowpoints: Ranger, Gold Dot, Hydra-Shok, TAP, Starfire -- no preference. As far as I am concerned, they are all so good that the differences are meaningless. Now that they are over a buck a shot, whatever I can find at the best price suits me.

That said, these days my "outside the house" guns are all loaded with Cor-Bon 185+P DPX, the solid copper bullet, with no lead in it. Why? Because I am paranoid about cars -- the world is full of them. John Farnam reported one impromptu experiment in which the DPX bullets penetrated auto bodies and glass consistently, and everything else did not. The gelatin tests I have seen show that the DPX performs the same in Jell-O as all the 230 JHPs. If they are otherwise identical, but with the slim probability of better penetration of cars, then that's enough reason for me to carry them.

Not fond of PowrBall and other "fast-expanding" bullets -- IMO they lack reliable penetration.


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## AZ Outlaws (Dec 3, 2007)

My choice... Remington Golden Saber 230 grain, Brass Jacketed Hollow Points.

I am by no means an expert. I've read a few articles, listened to what people say and picked what works for me. My advice, do the same. Try a few different types of ammo and use what works for you....


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## forestranger (Jan 20, 2008)

Used Rem 230 GS for years. Was given several boxes of WWB 230jhp and decided to chronograph and wetpack test both rounds. The Win averaged almost 900fps vs 848 for Rem out of 5" 1911. Win 860fps & Rem 800fps out of Commander. Both expanded well and Rem penetrated about an " more than Win. Don't know if I just got hold of "hot lot" of WWB but it was impressive. Got several more boxes and plan to test a few rounds out of each box to see if performance is consistent. WWB in my 45s for now.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

I roll my own and their about equal to WWB in the 230grs. I also load a 185gr to about 900fps. They both do a fine job.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

AZ Outlaws said:


> My choice... Remington Golden Saber 230 grain, Brass Jacketed Hollow Points.
> 
> I am by no means an expert. I've read a few articles, listened to what people say and picked what works for me. My advice, do the same. Iry a few different types of ammo and use what works for you....


That's what I been using..Those going through the car rounds DO sound interesting though. I will have to do some tests.

I reload all my practice ammo but the local LEOs will get really nasty with you if they catch you with a reloaded "carry round" using the mind set that I am loading rounds for the one use of killing people. I really don't know what the difference is. If I buy them for carry I'm not buying them for the single use of seeing what a hollow point will do to paper?:anim_lol: Those holes pretty much always look the same. But I'm not willing to tick off the same people I poke holes in paper with just to save a little money. I believe it would be great though to be able to make the perfect carry load for each of my carry pistols though....but...well...ummm...Yeah - Those Golden Sabers make a pretty good carry load:smt023


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## Joeshwa24 (Nov 14, 2007)

I load my own and I use Nickel brass and Spear Gold Dot 183 grain bullets and load just a bit hot for my normal carry and then a little light for my night stand gun... They really shoot very very well...

Edit: The LEO's here are also against reloaded carry ammo but if I get in a gun fight I think the least of my worries will be worrying about what the District attorney is going to hit me with.


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Joeshwa24 said:


> I load my own and I use Nickel brass and Spear Gold Dot 183 grain bullets and load just a bit hot for my normal carry and then a little light for my night stand gun... They really shoot very very well...
> 
> Edit: The LEO's here are also against reloaded carry ammo but if I get in a gun fight I think the least of my worries will be worrying about what the District attorney is going to hit me with.


Any of the major brand 230 grain JHP and my reloads.

And yeah somebody will pop up and tell you not to use reloads 'cause "...they will get you in trouble in court...". I've heard that BS for 10 or 15 yrs. but nobody has ever, ever come up with one actual court case. I've made the challenge to numerous folks on the internet when they start preaching that but no one has sited a case yet! If anybody has any factual knowledge of reloads being an issue in a real trial, I would appreciate information on that case and the outcome. :watching:


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## Joeshwa24 (Nov 14, 2007)

Yeah I have yet to hear of an actual case but even if there were I don’t think it would keep me from using them. By the way nice Reagan quote...


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Joeshwa24 said:


> Y By the way nice Reagan quote...


Thank you for giving me the author! I didn't know Ronnie said that. Do you know when he said it??? I'll give him the credit and date if if so. :smt1099


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## Joeshwa24 (Nov 14, 2007)

Im not entirely sure on the date he said it simply that he did. The actual quote is:

“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.”


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Charlie said:


> Any of the major brand 230 grain JHP and my reloads.
> 
> And yeah somebody will pop up and tell you not to use reloads 'cause "...they will get you in trouble in court...". I've heard that BS for 10 or 15 yrs. but nobody has ever, ever come up with one actual court case. I've made the challenge to numerous folks on the internet when they start preaching that but no one has sited a case yet! If anybody has any factual knowledge of reloads being an issue in a real trial, I would appreciate information on that case and the outcome. :watching:


Try _New Jersey v. Danial Bias_.

It wasn't a self-defense case, but the issue with reloads came up in a manner that could also be used against someone who carries reloads. In this case, the defendant struggled with his suicidal girlfriend over a revolver. She ended up shooting herself. The gun was stoked with his reloads.

The forensics people couldn't determine the range of the shot because they had no exemplar loads to test for powder dispersion, as they would have with factory ammo of the same lot. Thus, forensic testing could not confirm his claim that it was a near contact-distance shot by the suicidal young woman. He was charged with murder, and the DA implied he shot her in cold blood from some distance.

Outcome: Mr. Bias went to trial three times, was financially ruined, and ended up being convicted of manslaughter. He served several years in prison, and can no longer own firearms.

In _New Hampshire v. Sgt. James Kennedy_, the officer was prosecuted for aggravated assault after his pistol discharged during an arrest, and wounded a suspect who had grabbed at it. The officer's pistol was loaded with handloads, which was not against department regs at the time. But the prosecutor made an issue of the reloads, claiming it was evidence of a "Rambo" mentality.

Outcome: the officer was acquitted, but it was harder than it would have been with factory ammo. The department banned handloaded ammo for carry by its officers.

I wouldn't be so worried about some DA claiming I loaded extra-deadly rounds - though something like that happened to Sgt. Kennedy - as much as not being able to recreate forensic evidence. If you carry reloads, store away in a marked, dated, sealed box some rounds from the same batch you are carrying. Of course, you can still be accused of manufacturing evidence.

Not saying it's a make-or-break thing, but if the circumstances of the shooting are in any way questionable, reloads could possibly hurt you.


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## wiseguy (Feb 24, 2007)

on the note of court cases critiscizing use of caliber and loading....would it be more perilous to use 10mm for defensive carry? I've been wanting to buy a 10mm for quite some time with the intent of using it as a concealed carry weapon but have been hesitant to do so in fear of the legal ramifications should I have to use it....thoughts?


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## wiseguy (Feb 24, 2007)

oh...and to answer the original post question...Winchester Ranger 230+p JHP :smt033


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## Living in the war zone (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm no expert (but I do play one on TV) I like to stick to 230 gr. The heavier the better..... I think? I like Corbon 230's supposed to be moving at 950 fps. That seems to be enough to remove wind from a sail.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

wiseguy said:


> on the note of court cases critiscizing use of caliber and loading....would it be more perilous to use 10mm for defensive carry? I've been wanting to buy a 10mm for quite some time with the intent of using it as a concealed carry weapon but have been hesitant to do so in fear of the legal ramifications should I have to use it....thoughts?


I wouldn't sweat using 10mm, _especially_ if you use lighter loads (what used to be called "10mm Lite"). But even in full-charge loads, it's really no different than using a magnum revolver. People have used .357s for many years without any serious issues in court, despite what was erroneously claimed in another thread.

I remember reading about one shooting in the Pacific Northwest, IIRC, where a CCW holder came to the aid of a cop in distress. He emptied his Delta Elite, loaded with 175gr Silvertips, into the bad guy. Needless to say, the bad guy was DRT.

Poor Harold Fish blasted a guy with a 10mm in Arizona fairly recently, and went to prison for his trouble. Didn't have anything to do with his choice in guns, though. Rather, there were no witnesses to a fairly questionable shooting.

Anyway, if someone questioned my use of a 10mm pistol, I'd explain how it was an FBI issue caliber. Let the DA take it up with John Hall and J. Edgar Hoover. Most jurors still see the FBI as American as apple pie.


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## txpete (Nov 29, 2006)

I still have a stash of win black talons for my 1911:smt023


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## wiseguy (Feb 24, 2007)

good thought, thanks Mike.:smt023


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> Try _New Jersey v. Danial Bias_.
> 
> It wasn't a self-defense case, but the issue with reloads came up in a manner that could also be used against someone who carries reloads. In this case, the defendant struggled with his suicidal girlfriend over a revolver. She ended up shooting herself. The gun was stoked with his reloads.
> 
> ...


I would agree with your statement, "reloads could possibly hurt you." but I've not yet seen the case where they were shown to do so. These to don't do it for me. Maybe there is a case, maybe the case is buried somewhere, or maybe there is not a case (?).
First Case:
We may have a winner here folks (but there may be a bias in this first case :anim_lol::anim_lol. First case info only indicates that ".....the issue with reloads came up in a manner that could also be used against someone who carries reloads".

Doesn't qualify (IMHO) as being an issue that caused someone to be found guilty, only speculatioin about what "could" happen in another case.

Second Case: 
And this doesn't do it for me either as the officer was acquitted. How "hard" it was to acquit is speculation. It certainly "could" have made a difference...............or not.

I would always agree one should eliminate all the possible negatives they can when preparing for the worst situation, but................the only way to be 100% safe in removing those negatives would be not to need the gun and not to carry a gun, etc., etc. Like *Joeshwa24 said, ".......*if I get in a gun fight I think the least of my worries will be worrying about what the District attorney is going to hit me with."
Thanks for the information Mike.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Well, if you can't see how the forensic case against Mr. Bias could be applied to a defensive shooting, I guess I can't explain it further. Sometimes we have to learn from the experiences of others, even if they may not apply 100% to our own situations.

In the second case, note that the department banned use of handloads after the case. Clearly, they did not want this to happen again.


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## Joeshwa24 (Nov 14, 2007)

I honestly don’t care if there was one case or one hundred cases that it was brought up in... I think I could adequately demonstrate that my loads are no more detrimental than any other. The idea of squabbling over a "Less lethal bullet" is absolutely preposterous to me. The truth of the matter is that if you get in the unfortunate position of needing to defend your life or the life of someone else with a firearm then you are already in a heap of legal trouble, it’s sad but true. The liberals out there are going to argue that you were some “Blood thirsty militia nut job that loads his own killer bullets” if they find out you reload at all because to them nothing could be more deadly than making your own bullets. If you shoot someone in the places that you are trained to shoot them in a CCW class its not going to matter if it’s a .380 or .45 going 800 FPS or 1200 FPS they are going to either die or wish they were dead, and you are going to have to suffer the consequences of taking life.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I generally agree, but in Problem Two, the fewer things the DA can throw at you, the less likely you are to have something "stick." I know a lot of people like to think the American courts are somehow perfectly objective, but juries are composed of human beings, with all their intelligence, stupidity, bias, prejudice, generosity, anger, pathos, subjectivity, objectivity, and analytical ability or lack thereof. We live in a country replete with outrageous jury verdicts, to the point where they have become jokes on late-night TV.

I think potentially giving a DA or plaintiff's counsel "ammunition" he doesn't need is a mistake, especially since excellent factory ammo is so readily available. I can see how the arguments used in the cases I mentioned could also apply to a self-defense case. 

Some things, like using HP ammo, are non-negotiable and I accept that I may have to explain them to a jury. But there are dozens of good factory defensive options, so I see little reason to carry handloads. If you carry reloads, just remember you are betting your future (and that of your family) on the hope that a DA won't be able to make any of that stuff "stick."


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> Well, if you can't see how the forensic case against Mr. Bias could be applied to a defensive shooting, I guess I can't explain it further. Sometimes we have to learn from the experiences of others, even if they may not apply 100% to our own situations.
> 
> In the second case, note that the department banned use of handloads after the case. Clearly, they did not want this to happen again.


You may have missed my point. I understand exactly what you are saying. I certainly can see how a defensive case "could" impact or be applied to a defensive shooting. My original question was finding a case where it "was" applied and then successfully used against the shooter to determine guilt or liability. There are a gazillion things that "could" happen. I was just looking for one where it "did" happen. And yes the dept. banned handloads after the officer's case and I don't blame them, but he was not held liable or found guilty because he used handloads.

Ain't this internet thing great for discussion!!! :smt033


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Charlie said:


> Ain't this internet thing great for discussion!!! :smt033


It is indeed! :mrgreen:

I do not want to be the first guy convicted in part because an overzealous prosecutor made me look bad to a jury, or because my expert witness couldn't convincingly replicate powder dispersion evidence. I try to learn from the errors of others, but perhaps I am erring on the side of caution.

Still, for me this is like the reason I carry a gun, even though I am unlikely to ever have to use it:

_It's not the odds - it's the stakes._


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

I promise if I ever find a case where somebody get screwed because of using reloads I will post it on the forum and eat my humble pie! But...............until then........:goofy:.

I don't know if it's always been there and I've just missed it or what, but I like your signature line..........."_It's not the odds - it's the stakes." _So true!


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## Joeshwa24 (Nov 14, 2007)

Luckily I live in a community that has been ultra friendly in self-defense cases, I mean I have gone shooting with our DA and he reloads. So I am not to worried, but if I lived in a place like the Peoples republic of California or New Jersey or one of the other Communist countries now located inside the Continental U.S. I would be a little more conscious.


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## HadEmAll (Dec 27, 2007)

230 grain Federal +P or Black Hills 230 grain +P in my 5" Kimber.

185 grain Remington Golden Sabre +P in my M&P. 

If I reloaded .45's, I'd have no problem carrying those reloads. I'm with those who think it's a non-issue, especially here in Texas.


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