# Compelling Reasons Not to Have a Thumb Safety?



## Crux

Looking for well-reasoned thoughts on this if anyone has them. I'm on the verge of purchasing my first handgun, and am strongly leaning towards finding one with a thumb safety. Why? NOT to use it instead of proper gun safety! Rather, I just see it as an added layer of safety on top of proper firearm management.

I understand the concern about forgetting to flip the safety off in high stress situations, but my plan is to drill enough that flipping the safety off becomes second nature.

That said, apart from the slew of wonderful models that don't have thumb safeties and hence are eliminated from my range of choices (sig 226 for example ) are there any compelling reasons not to have a thumb safety on your firearm?


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## Todd

Compelling argument? No. I just personally don't see a need for one. I carry a P229 and occasionally a P3AT. Both guns' DA trigger pull is long enough that there's no way I am accidentally going to fire them. I don't even think I could "Pull a Plaxico" with them. Adding an external safety to me seems to be overkill if you have a DA gun and have safe handling and carrying practices. If you carry in a holster with the tirgger covered, don't play with the gun while you are carrying, and keep your finger out of the guard when you draw, I just can't see the need. Plus, it's good to know that if my wife, who doesn't shoot, needs to use the gun, all she has to know is aim and fire because I am sure she would not remember to disengage the safety.


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## nailer

I agree that most DA trigger pulls are sufficient as a safety. Having said that, I don't see why I wouldn't get one with a thumb safety, if I really liked the gun. If you know there is a safety, I don't see how you would forget about it. My $.02.


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## Crux

I was really looking hard at the HK P30, and I'm kind of annoyed - the P30S comes out in the 4th quarter. Just loved the grip on that thing.


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## nolexforever

i think other factors play into this question as well. your environment, who else might have access, your personal gun safety rules/practices. it could also be an added sense of safety knowing the gun can be turned "off" and adds another motion before pulling the trigger.

one neat little feature about my walther gun that compelled me to buy was the decocker function. in my situation the decocker acts as the "on/off" switch. in the decocked mode, there is absolutely no way the gun will fire by pulling the trigger _only_. so i can store the gun safely when its not near me.


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## Steve M1911A1

nolexforever said:


> ..._t could also be an added sense of safety knowing the gun can be turned "off" and adds another motion before pulling the trigger..._


_

Um, not exactly.
Training with a safety-lever-equipped, single-action (or "safe action") semi-auto must include a reflexive press to disengage the pistol's safety as its muzzle comes up and onto a target you have decided to destroy.
The safety lever serves only to keep the pistol from firing while holstered or otherwise handled.
Before you've decided to destroy something, your gun's muzzle should be off-target (probably pointing downward) and its safety should still be "on." Once the "destroy it" decision has been made, the safety should be reflexively switched to "off" long before you acquire a sight picture or other alignment._


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## Bisley

It is strictly a matter of preference.

Not having a thumb safety on a semi-auto is no less safe than carrying a revolver, which a lot of very experienced people do, without any safety qualms. If you put the same drilling time you mentioned to work learning to draw with your trigger finger extended along the frame, you will never have to worry about firing it during your draw.

I have both types, and I prefer no thumb safety, by a wide margin.


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## SaltyDog

I guess it would be a personal thing - how one feels about having or not having a thumb safety.

I have them on my shotgun and rifle but I understand that as the trigger is exposed and they are SAO - not in a holster. I have a Glock and Sig and will soon have a Kahr and I feel confident carrying all of them.

Funny nolexforever - I read your post and since I'm not familiar with the Walther I went to their web site and found this Safety Recall staring at me -



> Smith & Wesson has identified a condition that may exist in certain PPK and PPK/S pistols which may permit a round to be discharged without the trigger being pulled. When the manual safety is disengaged, Smith & Wesson's Product Engineering Group has determined that the possibility exists in certain firearms that lowering the hammer may cause a chambered round to fire.


Not picking on your weapon of choice but of all the sites I've been too this is the first recall I've seen.

I had never heard of a decocker acting as a safety - my main reason to go to the site. So does the hammer have to be pulled back to fire the initial shot?


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## James NM

> Compelling Reasons Not to Have a Thumb Safety?


I'll play.

Let's see......How about if you happen to be short one thumb. I think that qualifies as a compelling reason.

Some guns having a thumb safety is mandatory. Others it simply isn't available. It depends on the gun choice and what you are used to.


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## TOF

If you realy want to be safe you could get one with that key lock thingy. Just ask the BG to wait a minute till you are ready. :anim_lol:

Kidding aside, I prefer modern without the lever safety.
Stay safe whichever way you go.

tumbleweed


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## maddmatt02

nolexforever said:


> i think other factors play into this question as well. your environment, who else might have access, your personal gun safety rules/practices. it could also be an added sense of safety knowing the gun can be turned "off" and adds another motion before pulling the trigger.
> 
> one neat little feature about my walther gun that compelled me to buy was the decocker function. in my situation the decocker acts as the "on/off" switch. in the decocked mode, there is absolutely no way the gun will fire by pulling the trigger _only_. so i can store the gun safely when its not near me.


if you have the gun cocked, then the trigger is just releasing the hammer, right? and if you use the decocker, doesnt that just make the first part of the trigger cock the hammer and then the rest of the trigger releases it?

thats how I thought the guy at the gun shop explained it to me the other day. and if thats true, then it isnt "absolutely" impossible but would be alot harder to do.


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## jc27310

I don't have any compelling reasons, but as a noob to handguns I probably think a little differently from the experienced guys...

For me, a thumb safety would not make my checklist. I don't have any bad habits to break, so I don't need the consistency from some other weapon. Its all about hand feel first, and then if I can put it on target. I like DA/SA auto loaders for the simplicity. My Sig226 is right there, I like the XD's and want to like Glocks but they don't feel good in my hand...(middle finger rub).

I have to say, If I got a handgun with a thumb safety, I would probably look at the Kimber 1911's first and start saving for it...

Again, I am not too experienced, perhaps someone else will have your compelling reason...
cheers,
jc


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## stickhauler

*I'd Vote Against A Thumb Safety...*

The 1911's have one, I rarely carry my 1911, my usual carry is a XD, it's got the trigger safety, as well as a grip safety like the 1911. I have no fear of an accidental discharge with dual safeties, and I don't have to remember to switch off a second safety to fire if necessary.


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## unpecador

nolexforever said:


> one neat little feature about my walther gun that compelled me to buy was the decocker function. in my situation the decocker acts as the "on/off" switch. in the decocked mode, there is absolutely no way the gun will fire by pulling the trigger _only_. so i can store the gun safely when its not near me.


If the decocker on your Walther functions the way a decocker is supposed to, in the "decocked mode", if there is a round in the chamber, the gun should fire by putting enough pressure to the trigger unless, your decocking lever serves as a manual safety as well and the manual safety is engaged after using the decocker.


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## BeefyBeefo

Todd said:


> Compelling argument? No. I just personally don't see a need for one.


That about sums it up for me. :mrgreen:


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## DevilsJohnson

So.I'm guessing that the new guy is definatly wanting a single action weapon? He says he wants a thumb safety and that's fine. I carry 1911's a lot and I don't think I'd do that near as often without it. At least not cocked and locked.

I am wondering if the OP actually has a working knowledge of the differences in DA, SA, DA/SA, and Safe Actions like a Glock. Because really without knowing how all these work and why would do a lot more for any "Compelling Arguments" for or against a thumb or any other type of safety.

Who would want a thumb safety on a safe action Glock or a Sig Sauer that has no room in either design for one? I'd go as far as to say not many of my 1911 brethren would carry one cocked and no way to get to locked.

So, I have to ask Crux. What kind of trigger action are you looking at and why? Answer this for me and maybe I can get a little closer to answering you.


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## nolexforever

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The safety lever serves only to keep the pistol from firing while holstered or otherwise handled.
> Before you've decided to destroy something, your gun's muzzle should be off-target (probably pointing downward) and its safety should still be "on." Once the "destroy it" decision has been made, the safety should be reflexively switched to "off" long before you acquire a sight picture or other alignment.


sorry, that is what i mean to say, in more words. keeping the gun "off" would prevent accidental discharges and i felt like the OP wanted a justified reason to have the manual safety.

SaltyDog: to clarify, i was speaking of the P99 QA model, which is striker-fired and has no manual safety. the QA is similar to glock's safe action/precocked trigger. i refer to it as a safety though it is in no way a safety. only by racking the slide just a little will render the gun shootable.


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## nolexforever

unpecador said:


> If the decocker on your Walther functions the way a decocker is supposed to, in the "decocked mode", if there is a round in the chamber, the gun should fire by putting enough pressure to the trigger unless, your decocking lever serves as a manual safety as well and the manual safety is engaged after using the decocker.


the latter part of your summary sounds much better than what i was trying to say. that is exactly how the P99 QA works.

the P99 AS version, on the other hand, is a traditional DA/SA and will work as u described in the beginning of your post. it will fire a chambered round regardless if cocked or decocked.


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## Steve M1911A1

About the Walther decocker...
See this: http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=18521


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## Crux

DevilsJohnson said:


> So.I'm guessing that the new guy is definatly wanting a single action weapon? He says he wants a thumb safety and that's fine. I carry 1911's a lot and I don't think I'd do that near as often without it. At least not cocked and locked.
> 
> I am wondering if the OP actually has a working knowledge of the differences in DA, SA, DA/SA, and Safe Actions like a Glock. Because really without knowing how all these work and why would do a lot more for any "Compelling Arguments" for or against a thumb or any other type of safety.
> 
> Who would want a thumb safety on a safe action Glock or a Sig Sauer that has no room in either design for one? I'd go as far as to say not many of my 1911 brethren would carry one cocked and no way to get to locked.
> 
> So, I have to ask Crux. What kind of trigger action are you looking at and why? Answer this for me and maybe I can get a little closer to answering you.


Fair enough. I do know the differences between the different types of triggers. And honestly since my experience with firearms was all rifles back in Australia, I don't really have any preferences or habits regarding a particular type of trigger. I get the idea of the DA being too long/heavy of a pull for an accidental discharge there. That being said, you can never predict life. Reading about that competition shooter who nailed himself in the leg while reholstering, and by all accounts he didn't rush the action - just had a brain fart. You can be careful, you can train - human nature means people still make mistakes sometimes.

So I guess really my preference for trigger would be either a DAO or a SA for consistency. I'd prefer to get the same pull each time. Outside of that, safety is a major concern. I have a daughter. I'm not considering a thumb safety as any sort of a guard against her shooting herself - if she gets her grubby little hands on a firearm I own without supervision then it's too fricking late to be worrying about thumb safeties. I'm more concerned with the 'shit happens' kind of thing. I just view a thumb safety as one more layer that takes the chances of a 'shit happens' discharge from one in a million to one in a billion.

My leanings right now are towards a 1911, or if I can be patient was thinking about getting the P30s when it comes out later this year.


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## James NM

Crux said:


> ...
> So I guess really my preference for trigger would be either a DAO or a SA for consistency...
> My leanings right now are towards a 1911, or if I can be patient was thinking about getting the P30s when it comes out later this year.


As I mentioned before, on some guns having a thumb safety is mandatory. On other guns, it simply isn't available from the manufacturer. Some guns can't be had with a thumb safety, and some can't be had without one.

If you go with a 1911, there is no discussion. It comes with a thumb safety.

If you go with a DAO like a Glock, there is no discussion. It is not available with a thumb safety.

I suggest some trigger time with different types of guns and trigger actions, and the gun you choose to purchases will most likely dictate your "choice" of having a thumb safety or not.

To me this is like asking if I should purchase a handgun with a magazine or cylinder. If you choose to purchase a revolver, the choice is made for you.


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## tekhead1219

To answer your original question, there isn't any compelling reason not to have a thumb safety. If it comes with a thumb safety, use it, if not don't worry about it.:smt033


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## Crux

James NM said:


> As I mentioned before, on some guns having a thumb safety is mandatory. On other guns, it simply isn't available from the manufacturer. Some guns can't be had with a thumb safety, and some can't be had without one.
> 
> If you go with a 1911, there is no discussion. It comes with a thumb safety.
> 
> If you go with a DAO like a Glock, there is no discussion. It is not available with a thumb safety.
> 
> I suggest some trigger time with different types of guns and trigger actions, and the gun you choose to purchases will most likely dictate your "choice" of having a thumb safety or not.
> 
> To me this is like asking if I should purchase a handgun with a magazine or cylinder. If you choose to purchase a revolver, the choice is made for you.


Well, there are several glock-type guns that do come with thumb safeties. The Smith M&P has one available, as does the Springfield XD. The P30 will have a thumb safety available later this year. Otherwise it would be a much easier proposition 

Regardless thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply so far.


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## SaltyDog

Steve M1911A1 said:


> About the Walther decocker...
> See this: http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=18521


Thanks Steve


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## James NM

Crux said:


> Well, there are several glock-type guns that do come with thumb safeties. The Smith M&P has one available, as does the Springfield XD. The P30 will have a thumb safety available later this year...


I didn't say "glock-type". I specified Glock, as a DAO for your benefit, since you are new to handguns. I don't need you to list the exceptions to the rule for my benefit, as _I_ am aware of them. _I_ am not new to handguns.

While there are a few exceptions, the _fact is_ that the vast majority of DAO guns available and sold _do not_ come with thumb safeties. I believe that did not happen by accident. A thumb safety on a "glock-type" gun _is not_ necessary IMO.

Another _fact_ is 1911's come with a thumb safety. I also believe that did not happen by accident. A thumb safety on a 1911 _is_ necessary.


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## Crux

James NM said:


> I didn't say "glock-type". I specified Glock, as a DAO for your benefit, since you are new to handguns. I don't need you to list the exceptions to the rule for my benefit, as _I_ am aware of them. _I_ am not new to handguns.


Easy James. I was just going by your line here where you said:



> If you go with a DAO like a Glock


I didn't say you said "glock-type". But you did obviously say "DAO like a Glock". I'm not looking for a fight 

And I get why thumb safeties are absolutely necessary on a 1911. I also get why they aren't absolutely required on handguns where the first pull is a DA (be it DAO or DA/SA). My question more pertains to whether or not there is a compelling reason to avoid having a thumb safety on the latter of the two (ie the DAO or DA/SA). I understand fully that a large proportion are made without them, just as some are made with them. I'm just making sure there isn't something I'm missing before I make my final decision.


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## nailer

I don't see the problem. It's no big deal if there is a thumb safety or not. It takes no time to" thumb it" off/on.


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## Crux

Thanks for all the replies folks. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't sacrificing something major or doing anything silly by getting a semi-auto with a thumb safety (excepting the SAO which obviously need them ). I appreciate the input and comments from people. Very helpful!


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## clanger

Crux said:


> 1- So I guess really my preference for trigger would be either a DAO or a SA for consistency.
> 
> 2- I'd prefer to get the same pull each time.
> 
> 3- Outside of that, safety is a major concern. I have a daughter. I'm not considering a thumb safety as any sort of a guard against her shooting herself - if she gets her grubby little hands on a firearm I own without supervision then it's too fricking late to be worrying about thumb safeties. I'm more concerned with the 'shit happens' kind of thing.
> 
> 4- I just view a thumb safety as one more layer that takes the chances of a 'shit happens' discharge from one in a million to one in a billion.
> 
> 5- My leanings right now are towards a 1911, or if I can be patient was thinking about getting the P30s when it comes out later this year.


1- Um...huh?

2- Easy: go SA. Or get an XD (it's a SA striker type)

3- Don't point yer gun at yer daughter, and, GET A SAFE, GET A SAFE, GET A SAFE before you even *think* of bringing a firearm into the house. There's no such thing as a safe firearm. It's even more unsafe when it is not locked up.

4- In the time it takes to verify your target the thumb safety will have been off for twice that long. If you've trained with your shooter enough to make a difference in a dyanmic critical incident you'll be automatic.

5- Get them both and become proficent with them. The grip on the 1911 is unlike anything else. Impossible to confuse a poly or DAO with a 1911.

Back in the day troops carrried in condition Zero. Cocked and unlocked. They replaced a lot of rollers and the mil. mandated a grip (passvie/momentary) and thumb safety (manual) to prevent ND as the pistol was a SA w/ a very light trigger.


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## Steve M1911A1

I just gotta jump in here...

I understand what you said, about always having the same trigger pull, and that it could be either DAO or single-action. I agree with that point of view.
I used to carry an SA pistol (M1911A1, with some modifications), but I have switched to DAO. Here's why:

I would occasionally find that the pistol's safety had become accidentally switched to "off" by clothing- or holster-rub.
I could not always wear a cover garment, so I sometimes had to use fanny-pack carry. That _usually_ moved the safety to "off."
I finally settled on pocket carry as something I could do regardless of clothing style or weather. SA pistols are completely unsuitable for pocket carry.
Next, about children and guns:
I raised a daughter who evidenced intellectual ability and curiosity at a very early age. Nevertheless, we never had a safe or other gun locker.
Long guns were kept in an unlocked, glass-front cabinet, the doors of which were too heavy for her to move until she was old enough to know not to. Pistols were kept in a drawer that was too high for her to reach until she knew enough not to. Ammunition was kept in my workshop, in a locked, fireproof container, far from all of the guns.
The loaded pistol in the house was always on a parent's person, except at night. At night, it was kept on top of the nightstand, by the bed.
One parent was always at home. This is the most important fact of all. Further, the at-home parent (not always my wife) exercised constant, but discreet, supervision. Even when our daughter learned to climb trees, and was allowed to do it "by herself," a parent was always watching from somewhere nearby.
From the earliest age, she was not permitted to "play guns." She was strongly discouraged from even pointing her finger and saying "Bang!" When neighborhood kids were in our home, we did the same with them, and she was instructed not to join in "shooting" games. Thus, never in her life was a gun seen as a toy or plaything.
Early in her life, I introduced her to guns. Under close supervision, she was allowed at her every request to handle and "play with" the guns in our house, and to familiarize herself with them. When she got old enough, I cut-down a single-shot .22 rifle to fit her, and I took her shooting. I kept very close supervision, and I gently corrected her errors and taught her gun safety. She was instructed that she was never to touch any of our guns without our supervision.
She was instructed to immediately come home, or to phone us to come and get her, if ever she saw a gun out in the open and outside of parental control in someone else's home. This actually happened, but only once.
She's now in her mid-30s, and she's still gun-safe.
It doesn't require a safe or lockbox. It requires careful and attentive _parenting_.


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## clanger

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I just gotta jump in here...
> 
> She was strongly discouraged from even pointing her finger and saying "Bang!"
> 
> *
> 
> It doesn't require a safe or lockbox. It requires careful and attentive _parenting_.


I used to get yelled at for that too...*never point a gun ..!!!.....etc*

*

I normally agree with ya bud, but, I gotta say- way wrong on the second point. 
Proper instruction is mandatory- but, does not replace reponsible firearms ownership.

There's only one way to properly store a firearm in a home with a family. 
Not doing so will leave you open to liability, or, getting shot with your own bullet should someone come home before you.

You may be able to control the actions of your own, but you may not be able to control the actions of others, esp when you are away.

In California it is a *HUGE* felony if a minor finds your firearm and takes it out of doors, or worse, someone gets hurt with it. You WILL go to prison for same, no if's and's or butt's. Period, don't pass go etc. Yer done.

*

I cannot state this strongly enough, if you ever have children about in your home, lock up your firearmarms when not in use. If someone wishes to disagree, fine- your option, but I cannot recomend strongly enough against it.

My .02, YMMV.


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## Todd

Steve M1911A1 said:


> It doesn't require a safe or lockbox. It requires careful and attentive _parenting_.


In my case, both are required. I have a two year old and a six year old. The two year old, 'nough said, he gets into everything. My oldest, as many of you know, has Autism. He "knows" guns are a no-touch. There are no toy guns in the house to avoid confusion between the real deal and the fake. Even though he has had the instruction, with his diagnosis, there is a chance that all the instruction I have given him will go out the window for a split second. I believe I am a very attentive parent but I am not willing to take any chances. Guns are on me or locked up, there are no other options in this house.

And like CA, you get in deep doo-doo here in NC if a minor gets your gun.


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