# GI chose morality instead of loyalty Abu Ghraib whistle-blower has no regrets



## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

*GI chose morality instead of loyalty
Abu Ghraib whistle-blower has no regrets*

By RICHARD PYLE
Associated Press

NEW YORK - The soldier who triggered the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal by sending incriminating photos to military investigators says he feared deadly retaliation by other GIs and was shocked when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld mentioned his name at a Senate hearing.

Within days, Joe Darby was spirited out of Iraq at his own request. But his family was besieged by news media, and close relatives called him a traitor. Ultimately he was forced to move from his hometown in western Maryland.

"I had the choice between what I knew was morally right and my loyalty to other soldiers. I couldn't have it both ways," the 27-year-old military policeman said in the just-released September issue of Gentleman's Quarterly.

In an interview with the Associated Press on Wednesday, Darby said that if presented with the same circumstances at Abu Ghraib today, he would do the same thing. "It was a hard decision to make when I made it, but it had to be done," he said.

Darby also said he later learned that Rumsfeld was not the first to identify him, and he did not see "anything intentional or malicious" on the Pentagon chief's part.

Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib were brutalized and sexually humiliated by military police and intelligence agents in the fall of 2003. Photos of the abuse - the same ones that Darby provided to investigators - stirred global condemnation of U.S. military practices in Iraq. At least 11 U.S. soldiers have been convicted in the scandal.

Darby has not previously detailed his role at Abu Ghraib to the media, according to Dan Scheffey, a spokesman for GQ. In the as-told-to article, he said he never expected the Abu Ghraib story to "explode the way it did."

Darby is scheduled to leave the Army and the Reserves on Aug. 31, after eight years of duty. He said he has returned to his hometown, Cumberland, Md., only twice, for a wedding and his mother's funeral.

"I'm not welcome there. People there don't look at the fact that I knew right from wrong," he said.

"They look at the fact that I put an Iraqi before an American."


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> "I put an Iraqi before an American."


Correction: *"I put Iraqi prisoners of war who were trying to kill us on the battlefield before an American soldier."*

and for that he should have his head chopped...oops correction... sawed off.

just my personal opinion...


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Nah, Just pray when(yes when ,not if) the next World Trade Center happens "HE" is at ground zero:smt076 :smt076 :smt076


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I am sorry - I strongly disagree w/ U on this one. One can debate the merits of how far certain cases in that prison went and how far some didn't (whether is really was torture or not - I think some stuff was unacceptable, and some was okay) - whether some of the behavior was pushing it but still "acceptable." But, for him - I give the guy props for following his conscience. He saw stuff going on that wasn't right, and no one there would speak up or change anything. So, he did what he felt best.

I've prev had a job where I was given a choice - go w/ the flow as everyone else did, and violate company policy and common sense, or blow the whistle. I knew which was the EASIEST way to go, and what the right way was. I made my choice - I did what my conscience said. I ended up getting several people fired. And, in the end, I had to transfer because many people left were mad at me and were trying to set me up. This was at a job I had in the 1990s. 

Now, his is on a different scale than mine, but a similar choice. I think the guy did the right thing. And, when I say that, I know several members may have a problem w/ me after that. I'm not gonna debate my view any further, as I didn't post the story to start any arguments. I just hope that maybe someone else here will see it my way...


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> I give the guy props for following his conscience. He saw stuff going on that wasn't right, and no one would change anything. So, he did what he felt best.
> 
> I've prev had a job where I was given a choice - go w/ the flow as everyone else did, and violate company policy and common sense, or blow the whistle. I knew which was the EASIEST way to go, and what the right way was. I made my choice - I did what my conscience said. I ended up getting several people fired. But, in the end, I had to transfer because many people left were mad at me and were trying to set me up. This was at a job I had in the 1990s.


Did your job involve working with prisoners of war that wanted to kill you and your buddies?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

2400 said:


> Did your job involve working with prisoners of war that wanted to kill you and your buddies?


No, and I don't claim that it did. But, for me, I believe some of that behavior was wrong. Sorry - I'm not a revenge type of guy... Never have been.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> No, and I don't claim that it did. But, for me, I believe some of that behavior was wrong. Sorry - I'm not a revenge type of guy... Never have been.


I didn't say you claimed anything. I was just asking you a question. :mrgreen:


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> I am sorry - I strongly disagree w/ U on this one. One can debate the merits of how far certain cases in that prison went and how far some didn't (whether is really was torture or not - I think some stuff was unacceptable, and some was okay) - whether some of the behavior was pushing it but still "acceptable." But, for him - I give the guy props for following his conscience. He saw stuff going on that wasn't right, and no one would change anything. So, he did what he felt best.


My biggest beef with the situation was how the world focused on a few troops putting underwear on POW's head compared to this:










Wasn't a whole lot of world condemnation over this... But, putting underwear on a POW's head.... well, we all know the end result of that. Torture is not having underwear placed around your head or having a dog bark at you...

Being pulled from a car, shot, dragged through the streets, being chopped up, then burnt to crisp and hung from a bridge... That's torture.

again, all my personal opinion... 

now, do I think that guy was right for blowing the whistle...? No. But I'm not like him... I would have been the one placing the underwear on the heads of ruthless killers who just days before were trying to kill my buddies...


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

I gotta back up Shipwreck on this one..

For one, if we use the behavior of the enemy as the standard for how we behave, then we are no better than them. Yes, the brutality of the insurgents and Al Quada is revolting, but two wrongs don't always make a right. And it will probably only keep the cycle of violence going. (If a dog bites you, do you bite it back, or tell it "No!"?)

Secondly, at the end of the day, all a man has is his honesty and integrity. So I commend anyone for going against the grain and standing up for what he or she may believe to be right and just. Even if I don't agree with it.

I do think that the whole issue got blown out of proportion by the media. I would have preferred if the military could have dealt with it in a less public manner, because, in a sense, the actions of a few soldiers got the whole world in a tizzy, thanks to the non-stop coverage. And you do have a point JS - the standard for "torture" has become muddled.

But all in all, I think the US needs to be able and willing to take the high road, and that striving to do so would benefit us in the long run.

Heck, this is the same rule I live by - never lie, cheat, or steal, and I've got a clean consience and nobody's got _anything_ on me.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

A_J said:


> For one, if we use the behavior of the enemy as the standard for how we behave, then we are no better than them. Yes, the brutality of the insurgents and Al Quada is revolting, but two wrongs don't always make a right. And it will probably only keep the cycle of violence going. (If a dog bites you, do you bite it back, or tell it "No!"?)
> 
> Heck, this is the same rule I live by - never lie, cheat, or steal, and I've got a clean consience and nobody's got _anything_ on me.


The flaw in your theory is that the insurgents and Al Quada think like we do or respect our way of thinking. They DO NOT understand not biting back, if you don't fight back then you are weak and to be exploited and killed.

I don't lie, cheat or steal either and dishing out a little "justice" to the Al Quada and company wouldn't keep me awake at night at all.


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

I'm not saying for one minute that we shouldn't take them out, just that we need to maintain our integrity in doing so.

To me, it's like this: If someone comes running at me with a machete wanting to hack me to bits, I won't hesitate to drop them like a sack of potatoes. But I won't then take thier machete and hack up thier corpse. That's what separates man from beast.

So I have no problem with hunting down and taking out those that wish to harm us - but with a "clean kill".. I can't condone torturing them in the process. If anything that just pisses them off more and creates more impetus for thier recruiting.


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

Sigh. I'm with Shipwreck. If you sink to the level of your enemy then what hope is there for civilisation? It's easy to go with the crowd. It's easy to say "I was only following orders". It takes real courage to be a better man than your enemy, despite his provocation.


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## kansas_plainsman (May 9, 2006)

American soldiers are held to American standards of duty, honor and decency. Our enemies have NOTHING to say about how we conduct ourselves.

The people responsible for the silly things done to these prisoners did not meet our standards.

This fellow did what he was by duty and honor bound to do.

I don't think the response was appropriate, but that's not this guy's responsibility. Reprimands into the personnel files of those involved - a directive to all units reminding them not to do this stupid stuff - that would have been appropriate.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I think it is a shame that his home town now shuns him... What's the matter with those people...


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## Thor (May 11, 2006)

OK, to throw this out here, how many of you that think that Abu Ghraib was an outrage served in the military?? Even more, how many ever served in a war zone??


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

:watching:


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

2400 said:


> :watching:


+1


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, after having the afternoon to ponder this thread... here's the main issue that I have about all this... And really good points have made so far...from everyone.

Here's my issue:

If this guy was all about honor and his belief in doing what was right... Then why didn't he go up the chain of command to report this and let the military take care of it...? Instead he contacted the media, bypassed the chain of command and started a firestorm. I have to wonder how many indirect deaths he caused by his actions...?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

js said:


> Well, after having the afternoon to ponder this thread... here's the main issue that I have about all this... And really good points have made so far...from everyone.
> 
> Here's my issue:
> 
> If this guy was all about honor and his belief in doing what was right... Then why didn't he go up the chain of command to report this and let the military take care of it...? Instead he contacted the media, bypassed the chain of command and started a firestorm. I have to wonder how many indirect deaths he caused by his actions...?


We don't really have enough info to know if he said something to someone or not. BUt even if he didn't - do U REALLY think anything would have happened. Heck, on the news today, I heard a story about some other whistleblowers (not in the military). Once they go up the chain, they get demoted or fired. These were govt jobs. Here in TX there was some people who worked for the state - started to blow the whistle on wrong doings - what happens... They get fired. I have seen it tons of time. Until ya catch the eye of the press and also get an attorney, ya usually get screwed on that deal.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> Until ya catch the eye of the press and also get an attorney, ya usually get screwed on that deal.


Yes, this is true... But, When you're in the middle of war zone... and hell, we already know how sensitve muslims are... just draw a picture of mohammad and they'll burn down stores, destroy cities and kill you for it.

To me, by this guy clearing his own conscience and doing what he thought was right, he caused more bad than good from it............not to mention the deaths he caused as well.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, I sorta understand what U mean to. But, he didn't cause anything - they did. He did nothing wrong. Nothingw as caused by him. They (the people doing the wrong stuff) did it themselves...

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong w/ that


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

:smt069


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## Thor (May 11, 2006)

He SHOULD have approached his chain of command. Period. That's the way the military works. Believe it or not, it generally works right well. What happened at Abu Ghraib was not torture, IMHO. Harassment?? Yeah, sure. Humiliation?? I can buy that. Degradation?? Obviously. I think we've become far too soft. Sometimes, we have to capture prisoners in order to glean pertinent information. It's not always gleaned from being Mr Nice guy. 

All in all, this guy is getting off easy. I can think of much worse retributions that have happened to military members who don't toe the line.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

This deal should have been taken care of by the military. Yes, but no. By the time Kenndy, Kerry, Shumer, H.Clinton and their ilk got a hole of it, oh don't forget the New York Times, and The L.A.Times. It was a right wing consperisty with o'l Bush at the head of it.
The military could take care of these things if they didn't have to answer to the pencil neck politicans. Wrong yes. Who cares, not I. I care about our kids over there in that dump of a country. God Bless everyone of them.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

This will stir things up but "F" it here goes..."I" am of the opinion that the MUSLIMS (albeit mostly extremists) have turned the world into ""do or die" or rather ""its us or them"" . Well, I vote us and until we can get over the "We cant do that even tho' they do" attitude it will be them .When I was a kid I saw my granpa kill and burn a rabid dog and if that shoe fits the extremists...........:smt011


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

> I think we've become far too soft. Sometimes, we have to capture prisoners in order to glean pertinent information. It's not always gleaned from being Mr Nice guy.


+1

I've stayed out of this thread thus far.....In our WAR against terror. I believe we should do EVERYTHING possible to gain an advantage. If that means some of the enemy (prisoners or not) suffers...........SO BE IT!!!!


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## kansas_plainsman (May 9, 2006)

js said:


> Here's my issue:
> 
> If this guy was all about honor and his belief in doing what was right... Then why didn't he go up the chain of command to report this and let the military take care of it...? Instead he contacted the media, bypassed the chain of command and started a firestorm. I have to wonder how many indirect deaths he caused by his actions...?


He apparently DID go through chain of command - very early in the breaking of this story it was reported that it was the DoD which notified the press that an investigation was _already in progress, and had been for several months.
_


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Who's got their thumb on the DoD. Why the Congress of corse. A bunch of elitetis jerks. I got to get back on guns.


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

Wow Shipwreck - I think you found the "wedge issue" for this forum..

To respond to Thor, yes, I have served in peacetime military. I can understand the difficulties of reporting up the chain of command - In my experience, there were vastly different cultures depending on the battallion I was in, and I experienced an incident that needed such action - nothing compared to Abu Gharaib, mind you - but I ran into nothing but resistance up the normal chain of command. Of course, once the Inspector General's office got involved, everything "magically" corrected itself.

And more generally - Yes, I want to win the war on terror. But we can't win it with guns and bombs alone. Every Jihadist we kill is a father, a son, a brother.. And the 10 year old boy who watches his big brother 'martyred' when he's shot by us is the next generation of Jihadists.

So we need to also address the root causes of the things that let the fundamentalism take hold - poverty, oppression, ignorance. Otherwise we're on a treadmill with no way to get off.

Look, it should be clear by this point that we're not making the progress we were hoping for...

We need to fight terrorism _smarter,_ not _harder_.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

A_J said:


> So we need to also address the root causes of the things that let the fundamentalism take hold - poverty, oppression, ignorance. Otherwise we're on a treadmill with no way to get off.
> 
> Look, it should be clear by this point that we're not making the progress we were hoping for...
> 
> We need to fight terrorism _smarter,_ not _harder_.


I agree with most of what you say, but, We and the rest of the world at this point are fighting an Islamic idealogy. The radicals of Islam do not believe in our values and want us dead because of it. Plain and simple, they've said it time and time again. How do you fight that...? How go you go up against a god and their belief system...? They are taught this hate starting at birth. I saw a really good show on the Discovery/Times channel called, Terror's Children. If you ever get the chance to see it, I highly recommend it...to everyone. You get a quick reality check when you're watching a 8 year old muslim kid saying he wants all americans and the rest of the western culture dead...and has never even seen an american in his life. From sun up until sun down they are made to read the Quran and are taught that western values are evil and a threat to the Islamic faith... I'll see if I can't find it (the show) somewhere on the net and post the link. Just found it...

Next Show Time:

http://times.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=104057&gid=0&channel=DTC

You know, we tried to fight a smarter and less voilent war on terrorism and terrorist in the past. We tried being nice and understanding. Hell, We busted our asses to help muslims from being slaugthered in Bosnia. We went in, along with NATO and stopped the genocide that was taking place...against muslims.

All we got in return was 9/11.



A_J said:


> Wow Shipwreck - I think you found the "wedge issue" for this forum..


You know what the really cool thing about that is... That we are all having a discussion about a controversial topic and not ripping each other to shreads over it. It's refreshing to disagree and still be civil to each other, so we can all learn from and see different opinions. I think that rocks!  Good job everyone!


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

I found this clip from the show...

http://mfile.akamai.com/34/wmv/covery.download.akamai.com/34/dcol/digital_net/2003/0302/pool300.asx?obj=dnrlv001


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

js said:


> You know what the really cool thing about that is... That we are all having a discussion about a controversial topic and not ripping each other to shreads over it. It's refreshing to disagree and still be civil to each other, so we can all learn from and see different opinions. I think that rocks!  Good job everyone!


Agreed - I've been lurking around AR15.com, and it seems like half the threads there degrade into a flurry of insults over things a ridiculous as "This handguard is better than that one". Talk about a bunch of mall ninjas :smt120



js said:


> You get a quick reality check when you're watching a 8 year old muslim kid saying he wants all americans and the rest of the western culture dead...and has never even seen an american in his life. From sun up until sun down they are made to read the Quran and are taught that western values are evil and a threat to the Islamic faith...


Yup, and I don't have a good answer for this. And this is what really depresses me... someone had to teach that 8 year old that hatred at some point, but how do we overcome something that has become ingrained into their culture like that? IMO, we're seeing the result of, frankly, centuries of arrogant foreign policy towards Arab states - even dating back to before the creation of the US - when the British Empire was sticking it's nose in other countries business. In other words, they've had a beef with us for a _long_ time.

But it seems like anything we do just rubs salt in the wound. Take Lebanon as an example - Israel is attempting to use pretty conventional military tactics to destroy a highly mobile guerilla force blended into the civillian population, and as a result, civillian collateral casualties are disproportionately high. At the same time Hezbollah is the only group providing aid to the local population. So the result of that is Hezbollah's popular support going from something like 30% before the war to almost 90% now.

And this touches on another point for me - tactically speaking, I think the DoD has missed some of the lessons of Vietnam and is hitting a brick wall when it comes to guerilla tactics employed by a non-conventional opposing force. As we've been seeing in Iraq and Afganistan, you need troops on the ground to go house to house and flush them out, but if we don't have the manpower to keep them out, they just come back later or flow somewhere else. In fact, I would actually support sending more troops - 300,000, 400,000 - whatever it takes to get the job done. But the fine men and women of our Armed forces have been stretched too thin and are overtaxed by this point; we've painted ourselves into a corner, and Rummy handed us the brush and paint with his vision of the light, mobile, and highly outsourced, military.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Thor said:


> OK, to throw this out here, how many of you that think that Abu Ghraib was an outrage served in the military?? Even more, how many ever served in a war zone??


:smt069


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

2400 said:


> :smt069


 - I've said my peace... I'm staying outta this now...


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## Thor (May 11, 2006)

A_J said:


> And this touches on another point for me - tactically speaking, I think the DoD has missed some of the lessons of Vietnam and is hitting a brick wall when it comes to guerilla tactics employed by a non-conventional opposing force. As we've been seeing in Iraq and Afganistan, you need troops on the ground to go house to house and flush them out, but if we don't have the manpower to keep them out, they just come back later or flow somewhere else. In fact, I would actually support sending more troops - 300,000, 400,000 - whatever it takes to get the job done. But the fine men and women of our Armed forces have been stretched too thin and are overtaxed by this point; we've painted ourselves into a corner, and Rummy handed us the brush and paint with his vision of the light, mobile, and highly outsourced, military.


This is from a Retired Army Spec Forces Major on another board. (This board & topic:
http://usmilnet.com/smf/index.php?topic=3311.msg77895#new )



omahaprogrammer said:


> I hope we can do something. We're pretty stretched in Iraq, and having to go into Iran could be really tough.


Reply:


Greenhat said:


> We have an Army of over one million (about a half-million AD plus 700,000 NG and Reserve). There are just over 100,000 in Iraq.
> 
> We are a long way from stretched thin.


That said, I heard some Arabic person (I didn't catch the name. It was an interview of some Arabic/ Iraqi guy by a fill in for Hugh Hewitt) on talk radio today while at work (lunchhtime). His sentiments were similar to yours, A_J. He used the figure of 350,000 soldiers and recommended the same course of action, door to door and root out the terrorists one by one.

I will agree that this war could have been better fought. However, I'm just a peon.


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## Nathan Plemons (Aug 11, 2006)

A_J said:


> but how do we overcome something that has become ingrained into their culture like that?


Kill them all, every single last one of them. I am a peaceful person and as a Christian I have to believe that genocide such as what I just recommended is wrong, but it is the only way you will ever completely eliminate the problem. However, as soon as that problem is eliminated, another will crop up. Welcome to Earth.


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## nike98t (Jun 13, 2006)

I also agree w Shipwreck, Unless they person had knowledged of an iminent attack or some other very important info, which most prisoners there had none of. As far as the disgusting picture posted if we go to there level what does that say about us as a society.


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## Thor (May 11, 2006)

They post/ publish those pictures to generate motivation for their side and they use bullcrap like Abu Ghraib to recruit more followers/"jihadists". 

The one thing I'm glad to see of most of the posters in this thread is the fact that they aren't blind to radical Islam and their goals.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Signs all over Orlando today (Islam is a religon of peace.) Yea Right is what I say. I think I am gone a puke.


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

Baldy said:


> Signs all over Orlando today (Islam is a religon of peace.) Yea Right is what I say. I think I am gone a puke.


+1 :smt1099


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

nike98t said:


> I also agree w Shipwreck, Unless they person had knowledged of an iminent attack or some other very important info, which most prisoners there had none of. As far as the disgusting picture posted if we go to there level what does that say about us as a society.


Well, Just how is it I/we/you/the military??? KNOW they knew nothing?????? Like mebbe from interrogation we found out???
And underwear on the head?? yeah thats ever so torturous


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

js said:


> Then why didn't he go up the chain of command to report this and let the military take care of it...? Instead he contacted the media, bypassed the chain of command and started a firestorm. I have to wonder how many indirect deaths he caused by his actions...?


Actually, I listened to an interview of the guy about a week ago. And, then I reread this article.

He never did contact the press. This is a misconception. I don't know who leaked it to the press. This guy got a hold of a CD with all the pics, and he turned it in anonymously to military investigators. They then tracked him down later that day, and after talking w/ him for a while, he admitted that he was the one who turned it in.

He asked for his name to be kept out of it. Then, later on, Donald Rumsfield mentions his name in a hearing.

I don't know who passed the pics to the press, but it doesn't seem to be this guy.


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