# Mindset



## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

I have noticed on this forum, and others, that there seems to be a perception among a surprising number of people, of our entire culture having become extremely perilous since they obtained concealed carry weapons permits. I read of people (armed citizens not LEO's) carrying spare, high capacity magazines, back up guns, long guns in trunks; as if, on their own, they are going to be fending off a massive terrorist attack or sudden invasion. Many people are seemingly afraid to venture forth from their homes without massive firepower of just the proper caliber, on their persons. 

I read considerable bravado, and what must be construed to be an actual, at least fantasized, desire to engage evil miscreants in close-quarters combat with one's favorite weapons. I have read some truely bizarre ideas. 

I would remind everyone thus engaged, as I am sure your concealed carry instructors did, that the world has not changed with the advent of your concealed carry permit. Most of us have existed quite nicely for many years without carrying firearms. The vast majority of the time in our society one is safe from attack. If there is some attack on your person it will most likely be when you are somewhere perhaps you should not be, at a time when you should not be there. There are times when we must go into less safe venues. Having a firearm concealed then is certainly an advantage, and definitely recommended if it is legal. 

At other times, carrying a firearm is a right, and often comforting; but not a necessity. Overreacting is certainly not a necessity. Allowing oneself to devolve into the mindset that causes one to carry spare magazines everywhere, two guns, extras in the trunk, just might be construed by law enforcement and mental health professionals, to be somewhat paranoid. 

I do not believe that what I am reading in forums is from a consort of paranoids. I think it is from otherwise stable citizens who have simply allowed personal fears to afflict a new privilege. 

We have worked hard, and waited long, for the pendulum of 2nd Amendment rights to swing our way, so that we can freely exercise them and protect ourselves according to law. Society has a right to expect that our mindset and behavior will provide a lasting confidence that we can comport ourselves in a manner that enhances our culture, and builds upon our rights as responsible citizens. I recommend that we do not over-reach the intent of the law and give cause for second thoughts.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I had a very similar conversation with myself a few months back. I have lived quit peacably with this world for over 55 years and have never been in a situation that even remotely required a pistol for self defense. I frankly do not expect to suddenly need one next week. I applied for a CCL because I could and there is a remote possibility I *may* someday find myself in a situation were I *might* need a gun for self defense. I am not eager for that "Rambo moment" and frankly hope it never comes. I don't cherish the idea of taking the life of another person but I also do not want to loose my own either. The recent events with the Church shootings in Denver and the Mall shootings elsewere have caused me to realize that there are some good reasons to be prepaird for the worst but believe the best. It is easy to fall in to the false bravado thing when you are discussing situations on the Net. Franlkly, if you don't have some reasonable apprehension of being faced with a life and death encounter then you do need your head examined. I do not think it unreasonable to practice for that remote chance. Carrying a spare mag is a personal choice. Carrying a back up and a long gun in the trunk.....you might need to check your pulse....maybe. That's carrying it a bit far for me anyway. I just read a post on another forum were a guy said he carried a 1911 and never carried it in condition 1. The guy is a fool! You need to know your equipment and how it is ment to be used. Try to be honest with yourself and know your own limitations. If you can't control your mouth or your temper then don't carry. You are a danger to yourself and others. There is a part of being able to carry a concealed gun that is cool and I think we all are bitten a bit by that if we are really honest with ourselves. There is also a *huge* responsability that we need to consider also.


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## Dsig1 (Dec 23, 2007)

To add to this thread, I don't believe that this country is much more dangerous than in the Mid 80's through present. In fact, violent crime and crimes of opportunity have been decreasing, especially on a per capita basis. IMO, the instant access to media and media sensationalism do negatively drive our paranoia. For me, I like to target shoot and I have a range very close to my home. That said, I did pick up a CCW license (for $25 and a two week background check wait in PA) and as I type this, my KelTec P3AT is sitting in my pocket. I do have a wife and 3 daughters to look after and feel that if I practiced shooting every week but was not carrying in an emergency, I would be pretty irresponsible. No I usually don't carry a spare mag and I'm only carrying now because we just went to the mall but I do believe in preparation. To me, it's a common sense thing and I'll draw my own lines when it comes to situational practice. I do like this forum for the reinforcement of safe practices when handling firearms. When a thread takes a wild turn toward fantasy, someone usually steers it back to reality and safety issues.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Well, I've been shot at and held up at gunpoint (in a "No Guns Zone"), and I don't want either to happen again.
I'm not paranoid, but I carry a concealed weapon and one spare magazine (total: 11 rounds) every day in defense of possible (but not probable) armed robbery.
I do have a short rifle and its ammunition in the back of my car, as a result of having been shot at in a rural area. Is that paranoia?
There is no chip on my shoulder. I do not drive aggressively, nor do I pick or enter arguments (except with friends, and they're discussions, not arguments). I consume very little alcohol, and don't hang out in bars. I'm neither out to change the world nor out to avenge the hurts of others.
But I am armed and dangerous, if attacked.
(Here I assume a Brooklyn accent: "So? You gotta problem wid dat?")

We'll be on vacation from tomorrow until the end of the month. Talk to you then.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, I've been shot at and held up at gunpoint (in a "No Guns Zone"), and I don't want either to happen again.
> I'm not paranoid, but I carry a concealed weapon and one spare magazine (total: 11 rounds) every day in defense of possible (but not probable) armed robbery.
> I do have a short rifle and its ammunition in the back of my car, as a result of having been shot at in a rural area. Is that paranoia?
> There is no chip on my shoulder. I do not drive aggressively, nor do I pick or enter arguments (except with friends, and they're discussions, not arguments). I consume very little alcohol, and don't hang out in bars. I'm neither out to change the world nor out to avenge the hurts of others.
> ...


You've been through more than most will ever see. I can completely understand your prospective on the subject! I'm glad your around to share the stories! I'll be up in your neck of the woods in July. Spokane, Lewiston, and Joseph. I'll be visiting friends and family.
Have a good time and keep your powder dry!


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## grb (Apr 5, 2008)

I am a new guy here and happen to live in a state that although they advertise CCW is possible, it is appartently not probable except with very very strict limitations. I have been around guns, and owned handguns for over 40 years of my life, and given the opportunity, would likely obtain a CCW. I travel extensively on business in eastern seaboard cities and at times, have been in parts of town that I wish I were armed. I have never had a gun pointed at me, but have had a couple of incidents where I had to think quickly and move even quicker to avoid what might have turned into a bad situation. For now, my guns are kept ready in my home to protect those whom I love. 

What I like about this forum is that unlike some others gun forums, most here appear to be very conscious of the responsibility of CCW. It is pretty refreshing to read this thread, and it makes me wonder about some I have read on said other gun forums. It never ceases to amaze me that some folks come through loud and clear that they are waiting in breathless anticipation of "the moment", where they can use their CCW weapon. I know much of it is internet bravado, but kudos to all here on this forum. It is why I like this place. Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox now. 

Cheers.


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## skyfire (May 6, 2008)

peace of mind. sure, you might live to 90 and die a natural death, but on the same note you could get mugged and shot at age 30. you never know, and if you're licensed, why not carry? i plan on never having to use my handgun but if i ever need to use it to save my life, it's there.

some people go a little overboard with their "equipment" but it's a hobby for them, let them go on feeling like gi-joe lol, better them with the firepower over a criminal, right?


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I commend you guys for your mainly thoughtful, reasonable responses to this. I thought this had the potential to spin out of control, and I'm glad it hasn't.

We gun guys live in an insular culture that often has little in common with the rest of society. When we only talk to each other, we get an echo chamber effect, and things we might have once thought odd become perfectly acceptable or even normal and unremarkable.

I think some of this can be attributed to the gun industry. They want to sell new guns, so they have to invent new uses for guns. Survivalism comes and goes as one of those reasons, and I think it drives the sales of a lot of the AR- and AK-type rifles that people put in their trunks. In the 70's and 80's it was war with the USSR and everyone needed HK91s. Now it's war in the streets of Kansas City with al-Qaeda and everyone needs M4geries.

Some of it is attributable to the firearms training industry. We had a trainer on the forum recently mention that he carried 69 rounds of ammo on his person (which was met with some derision). But these guys have a financial interest in people taking their courses, preferably multiple times, so they have to keep coming up with new training to meet "emerging threats." The recent and ubiquitous spectacle of civilian students geared up like infantrymen while learning to shoot their M4geries is an example of this, as are some of the force-on-force house-clearing training scenarios offered by some schools.

TV news drives some of it. The nightly news shows cops running around with MP5s and M4geries, and we also get to see soldiers and Marines running around the Middle East with all manner of cool-guy gear and weapons. Ditto the videos posted on Military.com and YouTube. After years of this, I think it has seeped into the minds of a lot of civilian gun guys.

Movies push it. Everything from _Red Dawn_ to _The Matrix_ appeals to gun guys who want to see themselves as a hero. There's nothing wrong with the right kind of heroism, of course, whether it's a Marine pulling an Iraqi child from a burning car or a young American who volunteers to help his own community. But there is precious little an American civilian can do with a gun to make himself a hero, at least in the eyes of modern society.

I further think a lot of gun guys are somewhat suspicious of others. That's what attracts them to guns in the first place. Maybe they got beat up a lot as a kid or whatever, and are forever distrustful of people in general. Once they get deeply into guns, the above stuff starts to seem normal, maybe even appealing, to minds that expect life to be difficult and disastrous.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike
What you say is true of a lot of people on these types of forums. They build a fantasy life around their guns and you get all kinds of weird statements. There is a huge influx of CC permits in my state and I can only hope that the vast majority of the guys and gals that get them take the time to check reality and have their feet planted on tera ferma. The only real hope is that it will dawn on them that it's a pretty serious thing to be running around with a deadly weapon tucked in your waistband.


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

I agree with you gmaske. When I told my wife I was going to get my CC, she wanted to know why. After the mall shooting, she wanted to know when. I also do not ever expect to have to pull it and pray that situation never comes up. But with practice and training, if it does...


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Well, I wasn't going to post on this but, it's intriguing. Sure, I like having discussions about everything from .22 plinking in the summer sun, to the Holy crap, the sky is falling. Mainly because I pick the parts out that can be useful to me. Guns have been a part of my life for as long as I can remember, so naturally, I like to talk about them.

I'll tell you a related story first. I bought a motorcycle years ago, and learned to ride. The first thing my dad told me about motorcycles is "Learn to ride it and then sell it before it kills you". He was nearly right, but that's another story. The one thing that I've taken away from riding motorcycles is that I "see" accidents (potential) much further out than I ever used to. I see the building blocks of danger long before others do. I use that skill everyday I get in my car.

Back to the topic, I started carrying a gun daily about 10 years ago. I've been involved in two incidents where my gun parted it's holster. I've never had to fire, but one was pretty sticky! Over all, the thing that I've noticed though is that there were more than likely about 6-8 incidents just up the way, or around the corner and I saw them much further out, just like on the motorcycle. Carrying a gun has helped me to be MUCH more observant, and careful. I notice things way ahead and avoid them if at all possible.

That being said, I carry because I can, and because it gives me a comfort of sorts knowing that if all hell were to break loose, I'd be able to protect my wifeoid and myself if stuck in a place where there was no recourse. Having a few more years under my belt now, I am less likely to approach danger like I had in the past, but at the same time, I also don't think I could just sit there and watch someone beat a person with a crowbar without doing something. I don't wanna be a hero, but I also wouldn't want to live with the fact that I "could" have done something when others wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Zhur


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

gmaske said:


> There is a huge influx of CC permits in my state and I can only hope that the vast majority of the guys and gals that get them take the time to check reality and have their feet planted on tera ferma. The only real hope is that it will dawn on them that it's a pretty serious thing to be running around with a deadly weapon tucked in your waistband.


From what I'm able to tell, the majority CCW holders are pretty level-headed individuals and aren't out looking for a fight or out to shoot someone. They just want to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones if they had to. However, there are definitely a fair share out there that seem to be just the opposite (which probably is just all talk and posturing) that shouldn't be allowed to carry a squirt gun either.


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## Joeywhat (Apr 17, 2008)

I can't imagine EVER taking a long gun with me somewhere under the presumption that I may need it to defend myself...maybe if I'm going to the range or something, then it will be with me...otherwise I see no need. I doubt I'll also ever carry an extra pistol mag. I might keep one in my glovebox...but never on my person. If I need more then 10 rounds, I'm doing something wrong.

That being said, I'll probably take as many firearms training classes as I can. I don't want to be a mall ninja by any means, but I find it interesting. I enjoy shooting, and standing still shooting a piece of paper with someone from a bad 80's movie on it just gets boring after a while. It sounds like a lot of fun taking all those tactical classes that teach you how to shoot while moving, and from behind obstacles and all that.

Who knows...maybe in 10 years Obama and Hillary will turn everyone into communists, and I'll end up needing all that training...:mrgreen:


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

zhurdan said:


> That being said, I carry because I can, and because it gives me a comfort of sorts knowing that if all hell were to break loose, I'd be able to protect my wifeoid and myself if stuck in a place where there was no recourse. Having a few more years under my belt now, I am less likely to approach danger like I had in the past, but at the same time, I also don't think I could just sit there and watch someone beat a person with a crowbar without doing something. I don't wanna be a hero, but I also wouldn't want to live with the fact that I "could" have done something when others wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.


+1. Being paranoid and being prepared are two totally different things. I'm not paranoid that someone might try to rob or assault me at any given time, and I'm realistic about the fact that I will probably never need to draw my weapon or grab my 12-gauge when I hear a bump in the night. However, you never know, and as long as there's a chance I might need a gun, I will carry. I've never come across someone being visciously battered with a baseball or torque wrench, but that's not to say it will never happen. I don't go looking for trouble so I can get my once-in-a-lifetime chance to be a hero, but I'm always prepared if the situation arises.

I have no qualms about killing someone if a violent situation warrants it. I won't "shoot to kill," but we all know guns are deadly weapons, and if I ever need to shoot someone in SD or in a HD situation, I really won't care whether or not they live to tell about it. If they live, fine, they learned their lesson the hard way. If they die, fine, they picked the wrong guy to victimize.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> *I won't "shoot to kill,"* but we all know guns are deadly weapons, and if I ever need to shoot someone in SD or in a HD situation, I really won't care whether or not they live to tell about it.


So how are you going to shoot? To wound? Are you aiming for the legs or arms? Some SOB does something that warrants the use of _deadly _force, you give him _deadly_ force. Don't play games, because he obviously is not if you are having to draw and fire.


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## Dr.K (Feb 13, 2007)

I carry a gun for the same reason I carry a pen, or money, or keys. 
That is so that I'll have it there when I need it.

If my pants are on, my gun is with me.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Todd said:


> So how are you going to shoot? To wound? Are you aiming for the legs or arms? Some SOB does something that warrants the use of _deadly _force, you give him _deadly_ force. Don't play games, because he obviously is not if you are having to draw and fire.


I should rephrase. I will shoot to stop the attack. What I meant is I won't shoot someone with the *sole intent of killing him*, but if he dies, that's his problem, not mine. The reason I said that is the "I have no qualms about killing someone." I don't, but I won't intentionally kill someone. I'll shoot him until he stops doing whatever he's doing.



Dr.K said:


> If my pants are on, my gun is with me.


Do you commonly leave the house without your pants on? :mrgreen:


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

*Shot Placement.*

Well since we've turned that corner on this thread I'm gonna go for the kill zone if I have to use my pistol. That is my mental focus and if I have to pull it, well I guess I'm in a really BAD situation! Whether I'm able to hit were I intend is another question given the circumstances.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

In a defensive shooting, I don't see why anyone who's rational wouldn't go for the kill zone. It's the biggest target on a human's body, it's moving the least amount (arms, legs, and head will be much more mobile), and it contains vitals. The only other kill zone is the head, which isn't first choice as it can be damn near impossible to hit.

Also, being that head shots are extremely difficult, and sometimes impossible given particular circumstances, I can see any judge, jury, or DA being very skeptical about you shooting someone in the head in a "self-defense situation."


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

That's pretty much what I ment. I think you should practice head shots. I can see a situation were *you* could be on of multiple targets and you had that half to full second to line up your shot. I'm thinking along the lines of a Mall shooting were some A-hole is blasting away and you're cornered but not yet the primary target. It's a long shot that this would ever happen in reality. I guess it really comes down to knowing your limits and taking your best shot. That's why we practice so we know what we can and can't do at any given range. The shot fits the scenario.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I don't bother practicing head shots. Even the most skilled and trained handgunners can easily miss the head during a realistic shooting scenario. I figure 10+1 to COM with 9mm or better will take anyone down. Hell a .25ACP or .22LR would probably do the job if push came to shove.

I see what you're saying about lining up a shot if you have the time. But for me, more time = more shots to COM.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

*fhf*, it is not safe to assume that your opponent will always present you with an unobstructed frontal shot. He may be crouched behind something, offering you a much smaller target.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Time to point out irony.

This thread started as a commentary that real life in america does not include daily gun battles, and that exercising 2nd amendment rights increases your responsibility to behave rationally.

Somehow along the line, this has turned into another FHF gunfighting analysis.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

At least there was no mention of "throwing stars", awww crap... sorry.:numbchuck:

Zhur


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> *fhf*, it is not safe to assume that your opponent will always present you with an unobstructed frontal shot. He may be crouched behind something, offering you a much smaller target.


Very true, but my point was if COM is exposed, I would pick that as a primary target over a head shot. If nothing but the BG's head, arm, leg, or pinky is exposed, then by all means, take the shot. And if he's taken full blown cover, it might present an opportunity to escape.



submoa said:


> Somehow along the line, this has turned into another FHF gunfighting analysis.


Doesn't it always? :mrgreen: You should be used to it by now.



zhurdan said:


> At least there was no mention of "throwing stars", awww crap... sorry.:numbchuck:


I didn't bring it up...


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Very true, but my point was if COM is exposed, I would pick that as a primary target over a head shot. If nothing but the BG's head, arm, leg, or pinky is exposed, then by all means, take the shot.


Right. But if you only train for rapid bursts to a big target, are you able to hit a smaller target under extreme stress?



> if he's taken full blown cover, it might present an opportunity to escape.


It might. It might also enable him to take a benchrested shot at your back as you flee.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> It might also enable him to take a benchrested shot at your back as you flee.


But the BG wouldn't be able to see FHF, as he would have deployed his ninja smoke bombs to cover his escape. :numbchuck:


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Todd said:


> But the BG wouldn't be able to see FHF, as he would have deployed his ninja smoke bombs to cover his escape. :numbchuck:


Huh. I thought ninjas could just sort of..._vanish_.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> Huh. I thought ninjas could just sort of..._vanish_.


I think they can do both, depending on their level. FHF, is not old enough to be a master, therefore, I'm assuming he's still using smoke bombs.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I wonder if there is a market for leather belt pouches for smoke bombs and throwing stars.

Ninjas probably prefer kydex, though. :mrgreen:


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> Right. But if you only train for rapid bursts to a big target, are you able to hit a smaller target under extreme stress?


I practice on rapid bursts to COM on a silhoutte, but I also use the little 6-inch round targets. I shoot at the first until I get two bullseyes, then move on the to the next. There are five on the sheets I buy at the range.



Mike Barham said:


> It might. It might also enable him to take a benchrested shot at your back as you flee.


Yeah, but I wouldn't jump out from cover and take off on a dead sprint. That's ASKING to get shot in the back. Instead, continue to stay in some form of concealment or cover as you move away.

The vanishing thing is a misnomer. We ninjas typically dress in all black and use darkness as cover, so we can essentially vanish into darkness, whether it be a shadow or area where light doesn't hit. We tried using the see-through mesh masks like they use in fencing to hide our glowing red eyes, but it affected our vision a little too much to really consider them for standard issue. We did use smoke bombs for awhile, but our supplier went out of business, so we've started getting smoke grenades for our shotguns. I personally don't need smoke grenades as I was able to study with late Raiden (from Mortal Kombat) that excelled in the lost art of teleportation. I also got a chance to meet and train with Sub-zero, although I was never able to throw very good snowballs like he could.

One of these days I'm planning on doing some training with Scorpion, and also going on a date with Kitana.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Get it right.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

The bottom line is we will all just about soil ourselves if we get in to a shooting match with somebody. That's were muscle memory comes in. I would be willing to bet that none of us ever sees the day.....and that's good! The practice is fun in and of it self. We are all guys so we like to make loud noise and destroy stuff! There is nothing better than hitting a milk jug full of water with 45 or 357 and watching it explode:supz::gib:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

gmaske said:


> The bottom line is we will all just about soil ourselves if we get in to a shooting match with somebody. That's were muscle memory comes in.


 That's exactly why I train with my butt tightly clenched!


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## teknoid (Mar 12, 2007)

I don't carry because I'm paranoid, and I don't think it has become more dangerous. It has always been dangerous. I've had a gun pointed at me (armed robbery) and missed being a murder victim by minutes. I managed a "stop and rob", and my night clerk was shot fifteen minutes before I arrived one morning. That was 15 years ago.

Those two instances are why I decided to carry, though it wouldn't have done any good when I was robbed. There was no time at all to react. Both of those things woke me up. 

By most peoples standards I'm lightly armed. 5 rounds of 38+P and a speed loader better be enough, or I'm SOL. I hope I never find out.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Todd said:


> That's exactly why I train with my butt tightly clenched!


:smt082


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

submoa said:


> Get it right.


EXACTLY. See guys, submoa's got it down.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Very true, but my point was if COM is exposed, I would pick that as a primary target over a head shot. If nothing but the BG's head, arm, leg, or pinky is exposed, then by all means, take the shot. And if he's taken full blown cover, it might present an opportunity to escape.


COM is not necessarily the torso. When LEAs and LEOs refer to "center of mass", they are talking about aiming for the center of whatever is presented for a target. For a guy standing out in the open, COM is the torso because that's closer to the shooter's line of sight than the true COM from a physics standpoint, which is the pelvis (it also has the most room for error; a shot between the BG's legs won't do much where a gut shot can be debilitating). For a guy leaning out from behind cover, COM is probably a shoulder or the head. In that sense, if you have a target, the center of it is COM regardless of whether it's the center of the person.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Liko81 said:


> COM is not necessarily the torso. When LEAs and LEOs refer to "center of mass", they are talking about aiming for the center of whatever is presented for a target. For a guy standing out in the open, COM is the torso because that's closer to the shooter's line of sight than the true COM from a physics standpoint, which is the pelvis (it also has the most room for error; a shot between the BG's legs won't do much where a gut shot can be debilitating). For a guy leaning out from behind cover, COM is probably a shoulder or the head. In that sense, if you have a target, the center of it is COM regardless of whether it's the center of the person.


That makes sense.


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