# First gun: 9mm 1911?



## ssnxp

Hey everyone,

I've read through a ton of "first gun" threads and I have a few questions of my own; I hope you're not too tired of them to help a soon-to-be handgun owner!

A little background: I'm currently 21 and living in California (I know, I know). I'm looking for a pistol for home defense and target practice, and I'm not too worried about it's size. If I do get a Concealed Carry License (HAH, California..), I'd purchase a sub compact just for that.

Here are the list of things that I'd like to have:

1.	9mm. I've done the research, and I was deciding between 22 and 9 calibers. Most people agree that the 22 is easiest to learn from, but the 9 is the MINIMUM they'd go for home defense.
2.	Budget: I'd feel comfortable spending around $600, maybe more if I really liked something I found; Definitely under a grand, though.
3.	Manual Safety. Also a decocking lever (Do all safeties act as a decocking lever?)
4.	Visible hammer. This rules out Glocks
5.	Night sights would be great, but not necessary; especially for my budget.
6.	Easy to take apart and clean. I really want to learn the gun, and not just shoot it.
7.	This is the shallower part: I want a "full trigger." I'm not sure what the technical name for it is, but it's not the traditional trigger. It's more of a slab of metal, as opposed to a curved trigger that comes down. Here is an example of the trigger I'm talking about: http://www.topgunss.com/picts/Inventory/Kimber Pro Carry.jpg
8.	Full size or thereabouts. I don't need anything huge, but I'm not currently looking for a CCW.
9.	I've fallen in love with the 1911 style, if that makes a difference, evident by my options later in this post. I also love the metal/black finish. Mattte black would also be an option.

I'll be taking a safety class, but all I'll be able to fire is a .22. 
I will be going to a range and test shooting, but I'd like to narrow the choices down to 3 or 4 pistols.

I love the look of most Kimber Custom II, Tactical II, and Gold Match II, The Les Baer Monolith Heavyweight, and the Wilson Combat Professional, just to name a few. However, these are far out of my price range.

Are there any solid choices that meet my needs, or is my budget too small for what I want?

Thanks in advance!
Tim.


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## hideit

a 9mm in a 1911 is a nice choice but i am not sure your budget is large enough
honestly i would have to do some research on who makes them and their cost
about the cheapest and good quality for a full size 1911 is probably the para-ord gi expert ,$600, but not sure it comes in 9mm


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## ssnxp

Thanks for the response! Unfortunately, your suspicions are true. Para's website states that the GI Expert only comes in .45 ACP. 

I don't absolutely HAVE to have a 1911, if it helps expand my options. I just wanted to put it out there that I would like something similar, and a metal body; Glocks are nice, but I would like my first real handgun to be metal.


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I've read through a ton of "first gun" threads and I have a few questions of my own; I hope you're not too tired of them to help a soon-to-be handgun owner!
> 
> A little background: I'm currently 21 and living in California (I know, I know). I'm looking for a pistol for home defense and target practice, and I'm not too worried about it's size. If I do get a Concealed Carry License (HAH, California..), I'd purchase a sub compact just for that.
> 
> Here are the list of things that I'd like to have:
> 
> 1. 9mm. I've done the research, and I was deciding between 22 and 9 calibers. Most people agree that the 22 is easiest to learn from, but the 9 is the MINIMUM they'd go for home defense.
> 2. Budget: I'd feel comfortable spending around $600, maybe more if I really liked something I found; Definitely under a grand, though.
> 
> 3. Manual Safety. Also a decocking lever (Do all safeties act as a decocking lever?)


1911s don't have decockers, and not all safeties are decockers.


> 4. Visible hammer. This rules out Glocks
> 5. Night sights would be great, but not necessary; especially for my budget.
> 6. Easy to take apart and clean. I really want to learn the gun, and not just shoot it.
> 7. This is the shallower part: I want a "full trigger." I'm not sure what the technical name for it is, but it's not the traditional trigger. It's more of a slab of metal, as opposed to a curved trigger that comes down. Here is an example of the trigger I'm talking about*: http://www.topgunss.com/picts/Inventory/Kimber%20Pro%20Carry.jpg*


That's pretty much a 1911 only feature.


> 8. Full size or thereabouts. I don't need anything huge, but I'm not currently looking for a CCW.9. I've fallen in love with the 1911 style, if that makes a difference, evident by my options later in this post. I also love the metal/black finish. Mattte black would also be an option.


Than you're in luck, you have pretty much on option, the Taurus PT1911 in 9mm


> I'll be taking a safety class, but all I'll be able to fire is a .22.
> I will be going to a range and test shooting, but I'd like to narrow the choices down to 3 or 4 pistols.


You may have to refine your criteria if you don't want the Taurus.



> I love the look of most Kimber Custom II, Tactical II, and Gold Match II, The Les Baer Monolith Heavyweight, and the Wilson Combat Professional, just to name a few. However, these are far out of my price range.
> 
> Are there any solid choices that meet my needs, or is my budget too small for what I want?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> Tim.


As stated, the PT1911 meets all your requirements, but it's pretty much your only option unless you can manage to find a used Springfield Loaded Full Size in 9mm, but odds are it will be stainless. Your budget is a little on the low side for a 1911 in 9mm. However, I think if you can find a pre-owned Sig 226 or a CZ 75 you will be happy despite them not having the exact trigger that you want.

However, the PT1911 May not be allowed in CA, the Sig 226 and CZ75 might be legal, I'll have to check.

_*Edited to add:

The PT 1911 in 9mm is CA legal.
*_


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## JoeInKS

Springfield Armory, S&W, Taurus, and probably others have 9mm 1911 models available. I really like the 9 in that frame. I feel that the 1911 platform is about the best looking, shooting, and handling platform out there.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine: Thanks for the reply! The Taurus aPT1911 9mm looks great, definitely adding it to my short list! However, I'm having trouble finding a price for it online. The Springfield Loaded will also be kept in mind; Doesn't HAVE to be black, it's just a bonus. I've found it for under $900 so it's an option.

Joe: Thanks for the brands, I've looked into them and so far Springfield Armory and Taurus have 2 that I'm interested in. S&W have a few nice 1911s, but they're out of my range right now. And I agree that the 1911 is the best looking platform (in my eyes). I'll have to get back to you on how I feel about shooting and handling.

Any more input would be greatly appreciated!


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> 1911s don't have decockers, and not all safeties are decockers.
> 
> The PT 1911 in 9mm is CA legal.
> [/B][/I]


So to uncock the gun, I'd have to unload the mag, cock the slide to remove the cartridge, then pull the trigger to drop the hammer, correct? (Just making sure, my class isn't until next week)

Also, GREAT to hear that the PT1911 9MM is CA legal! Now I just have to find one. :anim_lol:


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## JoeInKS

I might slightly restate the process as dropping the magazine first and then dechambering the round by ejecting it.

I just point the gun in a safe direction, put my thumb on the hammer to hold it, and then press the trigger all the while controlling the hammer drop. I think that some people may consider this to be a little unsafe but.. it works for me.


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## Todd

JoeInKS said:


> I just point the gun in a safe direction, put my thumb on the hammer to hold it, and then press the trigger all the while controlling the hammer drop. I think that some people may consider this to be a little unsafe but.. it works for me.


Are you saying you lower the hammer of a 1911 down on a live round and leave the gun in Condition 2 or is there no round in the chamber when you do this?


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## ssnxp

JoeInKS said:


> I might slightly restate the process as dropping the magazine first and then dechambering the round by ejecting it.
> 
> I just point the gun in a safe direction, put my thumb on the hammer to hold it, and then press the trigger all the while controlling the hammer drop. I think that some people may consider this to be a little unsafe but.. it works for me.


Thanks for clearing that up. I don't think I'd feel confident enough to do what you do though, at least not for a long while. 

So my main choices so far are the Taurus PT1911 and the Springfield Loaded.. Any more I should add to the very short list?


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## kg333

ssnxp said:


> 4.	Visible hammer. This rules out Glocks
> 7.	This is the shallower part: I want a "full trigger." I'm not sure what the technical name for it is, but it's not the traditional trigger. It's more of a slab of metal, as opposed to a curved trigger that comes down. Here is an example of the trigger I'm talking about: http://www.topgunss.com/picts/Inventory/Kimber Pro Carry.jpg


I'm curious, why these two criteria? Aesthetics? #4 in particular doesn't seem to occur in many modern semi-auto designs, and might limit your choices a bit.

KG


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## beretta-neo

S&W has a fairly new 9mm 1911 for around $1000-$1100. It's a full size model. Worth checking out - not super expensive


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## JoeInKS

Todd said:


> Are you saying you lower the hammer of a 1911 down on a live round and leave the gun in Condition 2 or is there no round in the chamber when you do this?


Good point....... I wasn't clear. By normal action of racking the gun I would clear the bullet in the chamber after having dropped the magazine. Call me weird but I don't like dry firing guns.


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## Freedom1911

OP.

The only 1911 in 9mm I would buy is the PARA 18-9, but you are in California so you are limited to 10 rounds I think. You may be able to order ten round mags for it.








http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5733/
Springfield and Armscor both make 1911 style 9mm pistols. Armscors I think is just over 600.00 but the rest are around 800.00.

For hammered 9mm you could go with any number of good brands. CZ is said to be a great brand, I have the Bersa HiCapacity 9mm Pro which are great guns and can be had in most places for 350 and up. 
Sig, HK, FNP, Beretta are top brands, I know you specified hammered, But I did want to point out that the XD and XDm line ups are excellent pistols as are the Glocks.

If I had to recommend one hammered pistol that I was familiar with I would say Bersa HC 9mm Pro. I have one and it is a excellent pistol for the price.









* Thunder 9 (17 round) High Capacity I believe you can order 10 round magazines for the peoples republik of Kalifornia
* Two ambidextrous safety controls
* Reversible extended magazine release
* Automatic firing pin safety
* Ambidextrous slide release
* High strength steel barrel
* Combat style skeletonized hammer
* "Link-Free" locked breech design
* Loaded chamber indicator
* Polygonal rifling/match grade barrel
* Available in Matte or Doutone finish.

Hope this helps.


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## ssnxp

kg333 said:


> I'm curious, why these two criteria? Aesthetics? #4 in particular doesn't seem to occur in many modern semi-auto designs, and might limit your choices a bit.
> 
> KG


I want a visible hammer mostly because I want to know when the gun is cocked and ready to fire. I guess I feel safer that way, as silly as I may sound. Also the same reason I wouldn't mind at all if the pistol I get happens to be a single action.



beretta-neo said:


> S&W has a fairly new 9mm 1911 for around $1000-$1100. It's a full size model. Worth checking out - not super expensive


I found one on their website, but the MSRP is quite a bit more than $1000-$1100. I'll keep looking around for price quotes, seems like a nice gun.



Freedom1911 said:


> OP.
> 
> The only 1911 in 9mm I would buy is the PARA 18-9, but you are in California so you are limited to 10 rounds I think. You may be able to order ten round mags for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5733/
> Springfield and Armscor both make 1911 style 9mm pistols. Armscors I think is just over 600.00 but the rest are around 800.00.
> 
> For hammered 9mm you could go with any number of good brands. CZ is said to be a great brand, I have the Bersa HiCapacity 9mm Pro which are great guns and can be had in most places for 350 and up.
> Sig, HK, FNP, Beretta are top brands, I know you specified hammered, But I did want to point out that the XD and XDm line ups are excellent pistols as are the Glocks.
> 
> If I had to recommend one hammered pistol that I was familiar with I would say Bersa HC 9mm Pro. I have one and it is a excellent pistol for the price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Thunder 9 (17 round) High Capacity I believe you can order 10 round magazines for the peoples republik of Kalifornia
> * Two ambidextrous safety controls
> * Reversible extended magazine release
> * Automatic firing pin safety
> * Ambidextrous slide release
> * High strength steel barrel
> * Combat style skeletonized hammer
> * "Link-Free" locked breech design
> * Loaded chamber indicator
> * Polygonal rifling/match grade barrel
> * Available in Matte or Doutone finish.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks! The Para looks great too. If I could find it for a low price, it'd be amazing.

I went to the range today and shot a few guns, talked to a few people. I mentioned that I was considering the Taurus and the Springfield; 2 people told me to stay away from the Taurus, and recommended the Springfield.

I shot one 9mm to "warm" up and quickly moved onto the 45mm. At the 45mm calibers, I shot mostly 1911s (a few Kimbers and one Springfield). The 1911s felt much better in my hand than the Glock 45mm I also shot. However, I noticed that I shot a little better (tighter spread) with the 9mm. I believe it was a Sig.

Unfortunately, they did not have any 9mm 1911s to rent.

My new list looks something like this:

Para 18-9
S&W 1911 9mm (if I could find one in my budget)
Springfield Armory Loaded 9mm

What do you think?


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## JoeInKS

Great choices. I don't think that you can go wrong. Of the ones mentioned, I like the double stack Para BUT my belief is that people are still stuck on the older Taurus stigma and not considering their newer pistols and focused effort on the 1911 platform. I had a PT99 that I shot the carp out of and it never experienced an issue. My friend with the Taurus 1911 45 swears by it and he puts hundreds of rounds through it a week.


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## DevilsJohnson

Taurus's history has not been the best with semi autos (mostly their service dept) and the idea that it is not one of the "Top Shelf" weapons will bring out a little animosity. The PT 1911 line is as good a pistol as you can get for the money you put down on one. I've been torturing two of them for a couple years now and have yet to break them. And I am pretty mean to them.

The other 1911 models listed are all great ones. I have a couple Springfield, Para,and used to have Rock Island, Colt pistols. Wilson, & Kimber. It's hard to go wrong with any of them. I don't like Kimber but they are not bad weapons. I just do not get the "lovin feeling" when I pick one up and the ones I had gave me some issues so I wont get another. They sell a lot of them though so they got to be doing something to keep people happy.

A 9mm 1911 is going to cost more than the 45ACP models in most cases. Simply because the weapon was built to use a 45 ACP round. So things need changed somewhat to make it work properly with anything else. But they are great weapons. One of my Springers is a 9mm and is one of the best target weapons I've ever owned.

Many will rail against a 1911 as a first weapon. I am not one of those people being they were the first for millions of people. Sure people have been hurt but that happens when you're not careful and can happen with any weapon. The 1911 platform is the most copied on the planet. If it was a sub par weapon I would think the makers would copy another. There are less expensive weapons out there to produce and with the right name on the slide the potential to make a huge profit is surly there.

Look around. Pick up a bunch of them. Find the one that when it is in your hand tells you that it's the right one. Not just a 1911 but any weapon that will fit your criteria or even get you closer. All handguns are a compromise on one way, shape, or form. Because we don't all want to be walking around with rifles and shotguns. At some point you will pick one up that says this is your new weapon. It will fit you better than anything else.

Also do all the reading you can on as many different weapons as you can. With more formation you may find that there are other weapons that will fit your needs as well as the ones you are looking at now. If you're ranting at ranges try as many as you can. AS many calibers and styles as possible. Many might look a lot a like but will feel just a little different in recoil and overall feel while in operation.

I personally love the 1911 platform. The right type of 1911 for the right situations and it will never give you anything but great fun and the piece of mind the security aspects allow. Unlike a lot of modern styles there are 1911's that are built more for target shooting and others that are built more for being carried. These weapons can look almost exactly alike but will perform very differently. A target weapon is built much tighter so as to make smaller groupings. This does not allow for dirt, powder foul etc to have a place to go and a target weapon can start to fail due to these problems. a combat weapon is made more loose. So it has places for stuff to get into. The big reason an AK47 works so well is they are built with a lot of slop in them. And that's why you can toss them into mud holes and they still work. Something to think about before buying a weapon is what you intend to use it for. and just how intent you are about it's maintenance.


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## JoeInKS

What he said...........

I agree with DevilsJohnson


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## zetti1

I too wanted a 1911 in 9mm. The only one that I found that was reasonable was the Para Ordnance model PCX99R. It is 9 + 1 round 9MM with a 4 1/4" barrel and black alloy frame. It sells for $764 at Budsgun. I highly recommend the CZ 75 B which Academy Sports sells for $530 in Alabama. While it is not a 1911, it is similar. CZs are excellent guns, very accurate and reliable. They are a niche gun which is one of the main reasons why I like them...not everyone owns one. I have the CZ P-01 which is one of the few NATO approved guns. I suggest you do some research into these guns as well. Good luck on your quest.


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## ssnxp

DevilsJohnson said:


> Many will rail against a 1911 as a first weapon. I am not one of those people being they were the first for millions of people. Sure people have been hurt but that happens when you're not careful and can happen with any weapon. The 1911 platform is the most copied on the planet. If it was a sub par weapon I would think the makers would copy another. There are less expensive weapons out there to produce and with the right name on the slide the potential to make a huge profit is surly there.


Thank you for all of the information! That was a lot to take in, but VERY informative. The above quote is what got my attention the most; is there an inherent danger to using a 1911?



zetti1 said:


> I too wanted a 1911 in 9mm. The only one that I found that was reasonable was the Para Ordnance model PCX99R. It is 9 + 1 round 9MM with a 4 1/4" barrel and black alloy frame. It sells for $764 at Budsgun. I highly recommend the CZ 75 B which Academy Sports sells for $530 in Alabama. While it is not a 1911, it is similar. CZs are excellent guns, very accurate and reliable. They are a niche gun which is one of the main reasons why I like them...not everyone owns one. I have the CZ P-01 which is one of the few NATO approved guns. I suggest you do some research into these guns as well. Good luck on your quest.


Thanks! The PCX99R looks like a good gun. The CZs honestly don't look like the type of gun I want right now, but I'll definitely keep them in mind for when I'm ready to carry concealed.

So I'm currently down to trying to decide between the Springfield Loaded and the Para 18-9.

Any more opinions? GREAT info so far, thanks again to everyone.


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## Freedom1911

ssnxp said:


> I want a visible hammer mostly because I want to know when the gun is cocked and ready to fire. I guess I feel safer that way, as silly as I may sound.
> 
> My new list looks something like this:
> 
> Para 18-9
> S&W 1911 9mm (if I could find one in my budget)
> Springfield Armory Loaded 9mm
> 
> What do you think?


Hammer issue is reasonable, if you are new to pistols you should do it which ever way makes you most comfortable. In time it will not make a difference if the gun is hammered or striker fired. Your comfort level with the different types of guns will increase with your exposure to them.

I know the S&W and the Springfield 9mm1911s are single stack and only hold 10 rounds.
You live in California, will they allow a 18 round mag? I kinda thought those were not permitted. Or have you checked to see if they have 10 round mags for them.
The beauty of the Para 18-9 is that is you ever move from California to a more Constitutional State you could then buy 18 round mags and almost double your capacity. 18+1 is 19 rounds. Mwahahahaha Mwahahahaha:smt077


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## ssnxp

Freedom1911 said:


> Hammer issue is reasonable, if you are new to pistols you should do it which ever way makes you most comfortable. In time it will not make a difference if the gun is hammered or striker fired. Your comfort level with the different types of guns will increase with your exposure to them.
> 
> I know the S&W and the Springfield 9mm1911s are single stack and only hold 10 rounds.
> You live in California, will they allow a 18 round mag? I kinda thought those were not permitted. Or have you checked to see if they have 10 round mags for them.
> The beauty of the Para 18-9 is that is you ever move from California to a more Constitutional State you could then buy 18 round mags and almost double your capacity. 18+1 is 19 rounds. Mwahahahaha Mwahahahaha:smt077


Yes, California is 10 rounds max. It sucks, but that's what I pay for to have great weather year round, haha.

The S&W seems out of my range right now, so the Para and Springfield are my main players. I wish they came in more tactical look, like black, but it's something I'm willing to sacrifice to have a quality 9mm 1911 under a grand.

I also plan on getting at least 3 or 4 extra magazines for my first!


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## hideit

the FNH has exposed hammers
don't know if they have a 10 round mag


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## VAMarine

I would go with a Springer, the PT1911 I threw out there only because it meets your criteria, personally I would not choose to own one.

I see no reason to own a Para in CA, what's the point of having a gun with a key selling point of 18+1 of 9mm when you can only get 10rd mags for it in your state. If I recall you can't even posses an older "pre ban" magazine in CA, and if you could find them they'd be pricey, the Para mags alone cost $50 before any mag scalper gets their hands on them. The 10rd Para mags for the 18-9 retail for $49.00.

Having had a few Paras and one Springfield and shooting I don't know how many Springfield 1911s, a Loaded 9mm would be my choice hands down.

While Para does have a single stack 9mm, the Para LTC 9mm model # PCX99R, it is not currently on the "Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale" for California.


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## recoilguy

ssnxp said:


> The CZs honestly don't look like the type of gun I want right now, but I'll definitely keep them in mind for when I'm ready to carry concealed.
> 
> So I'm currently down to trying to decide between the Springfield Loaded and the Para 18-9.
> 
> Any more opinions? GREAT info so far, thanks again to everyone.


To me it doesn't make sense to get the Para living where you do. Thats just me though. The Taurus does fit all of your criteria and is pretty darn reliable.

You said the CZ is not what you are looking for yet the model 75 or 85 meet all but one of your criteria and are solid in your price range.

Coming to a board like this for advice is asking for everyones opinion. Some of it that sounds good is just good sounding but not sound advice, and other of it is actually real good advice based on what you have asked for. Your list of 3 is a good list but none really meet all your criteria. Out of the list you presented I would buy the Springfeild. Personally if that did not work I would buy a different platform 9mm learn on it and then get a 1911 once I have become a profiect shooter. Or decide I would wait until I had more $$$ and get the gun I want and not try to get as close as I can with my limited cash supply. Sometime waiting and getting a ......say ....STI trojan 9mm or similiar weapon works great. Good luck which ever way you go. Enjoy the gun you pick and always be safe

RCG


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> I would go with a Springer, the PT1911 I threw out there only because it meets your criteria, personally I would not choose to own one.
> 
> I see no reason to own a Para in CA, what's the point of having a gun with a key selling point of 18+1 of 9mm when you can only get 10rd mags for it in your state. If I recall you can't even posses an older "pre ban" magazine in CA, and if you could find them they'd be pricey, the Para mags alone cost $50 before any mag scalper gets their hands on them. The 10rd Para mags for the 18-9 retail for $49.00.
> 
> Having had a few Paras and one Springfield and shooting I don't know how many Springfield 1911s, a Loaded 9mm would be my choice hands down.
> 
> While Para does have a single stack 9mm, the Para LTC 9mm model # PCX99R, it is not currently on the "Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale" for California.


Thanks again for clarifying why you recommended the Taurus, this strengthens my decision towards the Springfield even more. I did not know that the selling point for the Para was the high capacity magazine. I figured that was just another bonus, didn't know it was such a big deal; After all, I don't get excited for anything over 10 cartridges anyways. 



recoilguy said:


> To me it doesn't make sense to get the Para living where you do. Thats just me though. The Taurus does fit all of your criteria and is pretty darn reliable.
> 
> You said the CZ is not what you are looking for yet the model 75 or 85 meet all but one of your criteria and are solid in your price range.
> 
> Coming to a board like this for advice is asking for everyones opinion. Some of it that sounds good is just good sounding but not sound advice, and other of it is actually real good advice based on what you have asked for. Your list of 3 is a good list but none really meet all your criteria. Out of the list you presented I would buy the Springfeild. Personally if that did not work I would buy a different platform 9mm learn on it and then get a 1911 once I have become a profiect shooter. Or decide I would wait until I had more $$$ and get the gun I want and not try to get as close as I can with my limited cash supply. Sometime waiting and getting a ......say ....STI trojan 9mm or similiar weapon works great. Good luck which ever way you go. Enjoy the gun you pick and always be safe
> 
> RCG


Thank you! The CZs looked a little smaller than a full size 1911 to me, which is why I thought they would be better for CC if I ever go that route. I'm going to the range again today, so I'll try to shoot the CZs some if I can find them. You stated that none of them meet my criteria, which criteria is the Springfield missing?

Also, I checked out the Trojan (I saw a few prices of other STIs and I figured the Trojans were out of my range also) and the 5.0 has an MSRP of $1,110. This SHOULD set the street price within under a grand, but I haven't been able to find any price quotes for the STI Trojan 5.0 yet. The usual sites I'm using for prices don't seem to carry STI for some reason.


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## ssnxp

So I just got back from the range not too long ago, I shot the glock a lot more. I didn't find it amazing, but I had 0 problems with it. I don't know whether I like the glock or XD better, though. They feel about the same to me. However, the owner of the range informed me that repairs on glocks could be done by third party sources, as you can buy glock parts. Springfield does not sell parts for the XD.. This pushes me towards the way of the glock.

However, I still really want a 1911.. just debating whether to shell out the money to get one now, *or *to buy the Glock 17 and learn to take it apart, clean it, learn to handle and shoot it well, and THEN get a .45 1911 later on.


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> Thanks again for clarifying why you recommended the Taurus, this strengthens my decision towards the Springfield even more. I did not know that the selling point for the Para was the high capacity magazine. I figured that was just another bonus, didn't know it was such a big deal; After all, I don't get excited for anything over 10 cartridges anyways.


To clarify, _in my opinion the key selling point of the Para double stacks is the higher capacity_, they do have some nice features as well, but those features are all matters of opinion such as the ramped barrel, type of sights, different extractor etc. But all those features can be found on other guns as well, however there aren't that many makers of double stack 1911s with those features.

The Springfield Loaded doesn't meet your initial criteria as it's stainless and over your stated budget.

Glocks are nice, reliable, not overly expensive and yes, the parts for them is definitely a plus.


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## JoeInKS

Have you actually fired any 1911's??

Although I love their feel, look, and characteristics, I do not collect them because they simply don't fit my hand correctly without modification. I have a large hand and small thumbs so........ if you've tried to shoot one magazine after magazine, you'll know why I have trouble.

The Glock 17 is one of those guns that is just a great thing in my mind. Reliable, cheap to purchase / shoot, cheap / readily available world of accessories, easily maintainable, TONS of information available, its a Glock, and their is the coolest 33 round magazine in the world for it.

I'm just a kid at heart......


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> To clarify, _in my opinion the key selling point of the Para double stacks is the higher capacity_, they do have some nice features as well, but those features are all matters of opinion such as the ramped barrel, type of sights, different extractor etc. But all those features can be found on other guns as well, however there aren't that many makers of double stack 1911s with those features.
> 
> The Springfield Loaded doesn't meet your initial criteria as it's stainless and over your stated budget.
> 
> Glocks are nice, reliable, not overly expensive and yes, the parts for them is definitely a plus.


I see what you're saying about the Para's capacity. Thanks for clarifying. The Loaded is over my initial budget of $600 that I would be OK with spending, but soon after I got responses I figured my MAXIMUM of $1,000 might have to come into play. The stainless vs black is just preference, but definitely not a deal breaker. I mean, I could get it coated later on if I so wished, right? Not a big deal to me anymore, either way.



JoeInKS said:


> Have you actually fired any 1911's??
> 
> Although I love their feel, look, and characteristics, I do not collect them because they simply don't fit my hand correctly without modification. I have a large hand and small thumbs so........ if you've tried to shoot one magazine after magazine, you'll know why I have trouble.
> 
> The Glock 17 is one of those guns that is just a great thing in my mind. Reliable, cheap to purchase / shoot, cheap / readily available world of accessories, easily maintainable, TONS of information available, its a Glock, and their is the coolest 33 round magazine in the world for it.
> 
> I'm just a kid at heart......


I've fired a few hundred rounds through various 1911s, but only in .45 caliber. The range I go to does not carry any 1911s in .9mm. Thank you for the input, it seems that a Glock 17 deserves some more consideration..

EDIT: I guess the only reason I'm reluctant about getting a glock now is the fact that it has not manual safety. To a beginner like me, it's important. I know that the best safety is between the ears, but a manual safety would give me much peace of mind for my first handgun.


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## flieger67

If you are considering a 9mm Glock with an eye towards concealed carry, you might also consider the Glock 19. The 17's barrel is 4.49 inches long while the 19 has barrel that is 4.02 inches long. That near half-inch difference may or may not matter much depending on your height and weight but it is something to consider. Similarly, if you think the Springfield XD is the way you want to go, there is a new XDm with 3.8 inch barrel.

Good luck as you do research and make a choice.


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## recoilguy

If you are now considering shorter, less expensive, hammerless, not the full trigger weapons, then you have a big job ahead of you. You will have gone away from almost all of your original points except 9mm and under 600 bucks. There are many ,many guns in that category.

Good luck too you get a gun that feels good and serves the purpose you are buying it for. Otherwise you will be unhappy and always wishing you had waited. I did not say always wishing you had a different gun. I am always wishing I had a different gun, just notr instead of any of the ones I own. When I bought each of my guns I made a list like you did. Then determined if the list was what I really wanted, then listed most important to least important. then got the best gun I could find that filled my precieved need.

If a saftey seems important to you but not to someone else let someone else own a gun without one, but don't let anyone talk you into one until you are ready to handle one. Just a my advice.

RCG


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## Dr Arkham

If you're still looking for a reliable full size 9mm, not just a 1911 style, with a manual safety check out the Beretta 92 and the Browning Hi-Power. Both will give you just about everything you want in a very reliable package. I've had quite a bit of experience with the Beretta in the Navy and we put those guns through hell and they worked great, they have a manual safety, are double/single action and have a loaded barrel indicator, a little metal thing about the barrel that is raised up when there is one in the chamber. There's also a big old red dot on the slide when the safety is not on. I'm not too sure on the prices, but there are so many out there that I'm sure finding a used one in good condition wouldn't be too much of an issue.

Just looked it up and the Beretta website shows an MSRP of $650, the Browning on the other hand is over a grand. Good luck with whatever you get. I forgot to mention that the safety also acts as a decocker, which I think is a nice safety feature.


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## ssnxp

flieger67 said:


> If you are considering a 9mm Glock with an eye towards concealed carry, you might also consider the Glock 19. The 17's barrel is 4.49 inches long while the 19 has barrel that is 4.02 inches long. That near half-inch difference may or may not matter much depending on your height and weight but it is something to consider. Similarly, if you think the Springfield XD is the way you want to go, there is a new XDm with 3.8 inch barrel.
> 
> Good luck as you do research and make a choice.


Thank you! I think the XD feels a bit better in my hand, but the Glocks have better support.. it's a trade off that I'm still thinking about.



recoilguy said:


> If a saftey seems important to you but not to someone else let someone else own a gun without one, but don't let anyone talk you into one until you are ready to handle one. Just a my advice.
> 
> RCG


Thank you! I've talked to a few people that tell me the safety is unnecessary on a Glock, but it's just a peace-of-mind kind of thing. I'm definitely not letting anyone pressure me into a sale that I'm not comfortable with.



Roman4405 said:


> If you're still looking for a reliable full size 9mm, not just a 1911 style, with a manual safety check out the Beretta 92 and the Browning Hi-Power. Both will give you just about everything you want in a very reliable package. I've had quite a bit of experience with the Beretta in the Navy and we put those guns through hell and they worked great, they have a manual safety, are double/single action and have a loaded barrel indicator, a little metal thing about the barrel that is raised up when there is one in the chamber. There's also a big old red dot on the slide when the safety is not on. I'm not too sure on the prices, but there are so many out there that I'm sure finding a used one in good condition wouldn't be too much of an issue.
> 
> Just looked it up and the Beretta website shows an MSRP of $650, the Browning on the other hand is over a grand. Good luck with whatever you get. I forgot to mention that the safety also acts as a decocker, which I think is a nice safety feature.


I'm looking at the Beretta website right now, and I can't find a difference between the M9A1, M9, and the 92FS. They all have the exact same specs, but the prices vary. What's up with that?

Hey all, *thanks so much for bearing with me*. I thought about getting a Glock and putting a manual safety on it, but the cheapest I've been able to find it for (the safety) is at least $125 + shipping the gun in. A local gunsmith quoted me around $200 at least, as they haven't done one yet.

My current lineup now looks like this: (not in any particular order)

STI Trojan 5.0
Springfield Loaded
Para P18-9
Beretta (one of those mentioned above)
Glock + Add on a safety (This would bump the cost significantly, though)


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> I'm looking at the Beretta website right now, and I can't find a difference between the M9A1, M9, and the 92FS. They all have the exact same specs, but the prices vary. What's up with that?


The M9A1 has a rail, the others don't. The M9 and the 92FS are basically the same gun, 92FS is the civilian version of the "original" M9, the M9 advertised on their site has a "M9" serial number and slightly different sights than the 92FS that make it more like the Military model or something like that. The M9 and 92fFS are virtually identical to the casual observer.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> The M9A1 has a rail, the others don't. The M9 and the 92FS are basically the same gun, 92FS is the civilian version of the "original" M9, the M9 advertised on their site has a "M9" serial number and slightly different sights than the 92FS that make it more like the Military model or something like that. The M9 and 92fFS are virtually identical to the casual observer.


Thanks for clearing that up! So I called around and asked for the M9 and M9A1, and apparently they're impossible to find. The stores I called DO have the 92FS, however.

Question: How does an online gun purchase work? Would I purchase a gun online and have it sent to a store, and pay a fee there?


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> Thanks for clearing that up! So I called around and asked for the M9 and M9A1, and apparently they're impossible to find. The stores I called DO have the 92FS, however.
> 
> Question: How does an online gun purchase work? Would I purchase a gun online and have it sent to a store, and pay a fee there?


Yes, you pay the seller and send them your receiving FFL's info, they send the gun to the FFL, you go there, do the back ground check, pay their transfer fee and you're done. Of course that's not counting any CA hoops. Also remember that when you order you need to make sure it comes with 10rd mags or make arrangements for your FFL to trade you mags, whatever works to stay within CA law. A local FFL may be able to clear up the mag issue with how that works.


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## ssnxp

I see, so how far in advance should I let the FFL know that the gun will be coming in?

I'm still leaning towards a 1911 (mostly the STI 5.0), but at this point it seems that the Beretta would be MUCH easier to find..


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> I see, so how far in advance should I let the FFL know that the gun will be coming in?
> 
> I'm still leaning towards a 1911 (mostly the STI 5.0), but at this point it seems that the Beretta would be MUCH easier to find..


You need to make arrangements with your receiving FFL before you even make the purchase, they need to send their FFL to the seller so he can verify that he's sending the gun to a legal recipient.

Once you pay for the gun, and the seller ships the gun, it will either be over nighted via FedEx/UPS or sent three day mail (Usually, but not always the case), as far as letting your receiving FFL know, you might just want to give them a heads up once you get a tracking number for you gun, a good seller will send that info to you and the receiving FFL.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> You need to make arrangements with your receiving FFL before you even make the purchase, they need to send their FFL to the seller so he can verify that he's sending the gun to a legal recipient.
> 
> Once you pay for the gun, and the seller ships the gun, it will either be over nighted via FedEx/UPS or sent three day mail (Usually, but not always the case), as far as letting your receiving FFL know, you might just want to give them a heads up once you get a tracking number for you gun, a good seller will send that info to you and the receiving FFL.


Got it. I'll make sure to go through these steps, thanks!

On a side note, I can't seem to find any online FFL or brokers that carry STI. Any recommendations?


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## Dr Arkham

ssnxp said:


> Got it. I'll make sure to go through these steps, thanks!
> 
> On a side note, I can't seem to find any online FFL or brokers that carry STI. Any recommendations?


I'm pretty sure that the gun shop where you have it sent to does not need to normally carry STIs. As long as the are a licensed firearm dealer I think you should be able to have the gun shipped to them. If I'm wrong please correct me. On a side note those STIs are pretty damn nice, a little too high in the price range for me though. Good luck.


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## ssnxp

Roman4405 said:


> I'm pretty sure that the gun shop where you have it sent to does not need to normally carry STIs. As long as the are a licensed firearm dealer I think you should be able to have the gun shipped to them. If I'm wrong please correct me. On a side note those STIs are pretty damn nice, a little too high in the price range for me though. Good luck.


Oh I meant that I can't find ONLINE stores/brokers that carry STI. I've found one place for the STI Trojan, and apparently they're sold out. Special Order only.

Is STI exotic, or something?

I found this retailer, Brazos. Anyone have experience with them? http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm


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## Dr Arkham

I don't know if you would call it exotic, but it isn't as common as other brands. I personally own a Springfield 1911 that I bought for about $650 8 years ago and couldn't be happier with it, granted it's not a $2500 custom 1911 with all the bells and whistles, nor is it a match gun but it does what I want it to do when I want it to do it. I use it for fun at the range and protecting my family (indoors, it's a little big for me to walk around with) and I haven't had any problems with it. As far as finding an STI, after searching for a couple of minutes I found a couple of .45's on GunDealerOnline.com, but that was about it. I don't remember if you looked at the Springfield EMP series 1911 9mm's.


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## ssnxp

Roman4405 said:


> I don't know if you would call it exotic, but it isn't as common as other brands. I personally own a Springfield 1911 that I bought for about $650 8 years ago and couldn't be happier with it, granted it's not a $2500 custom 1911 with all the bells and whistles, nor is it a match gun but it does what I want it to do when I want it to do it. I use it for fun at the range and protecting my family (indoors, it's a little big for me to walk around with) and I haven't had any problems with it. As far as finding an STI, after searching for a couple of minutes I found a couple of .45's on GunDealerOnline.com, but that was about it. I don't remember if you looked at the Springfield EMP series 1911 9mm's.


I've been reading that people have been snagging Springfield Loaded 1911s for around $650, but I haven't been able to find any below $800. Is it the economy, or bad timing? Do I just suck at searching?

I actually found the Trojan from the Brazo's website I linked above, and that seems like my only option right now. I checked out the SA EMP series, and those look awesome for carry. I'm not looking for something THAT small yet though, but I'll keep it in mind for if I EVER get a license to carry concealed! Thanks!


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> I've been reading that people have been snagging Springfield Loaded 1911s for around $650, but I haven't been able to find any below $800. Is it the economy, or bad timing? Do I just suck at searching?
> 
> I actually found the Trojan from the Brazo's website I linked above, and that seems like my only option right now. I checked out the SA EMP series, and those look awesome for carry. I'm not looking for something THAT small yet though, but I'll keep it in mind for if I EVER get a license to carry concealed! Thanks!


Call CDNN for pricing on a Loaded, they have the best prices that I've found.


> *[SIZE=+1]For Firearm Related Questions Please Call 800-588-9500.
> We Cannot Answer Firearm Related Questions Via Email!
> This Website Is For Firearm Accessory Sales Only!*[/SIZE]


As for $650 Loaded models, I don't buy that, $700-$750 would be a low price for them, $650 would be one hell of a deal.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> Call CDNN for pricing on a Loaded, they have the best prices that I've found.
> 
> As for $650 Loaded models, I don't buy that, $700-$750 would be a low price for them, $650 would be one hell of a deal.


Thanks you, I called them. They told me the only 9mm Sprinfield 1911s they carry are the EMP (micro), and that's going for $1199.

I read through your 1911 blog/article, and I appreciate it all very much. Point blank question: Should I go for the Trojan or settle for the Loaded?


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## recoilguy

This is your first gun?

I would be hard pressed to say you were settling for a loaded. If I were to buy a 1911 right now I would hold out for either a Dan wesson or the Trojan, but I own quite a few guns already. I am not saying don't hold out for the one gun but I am saying getting a loaded is far from settling in my humble opinion.

Good luck man get one of them and let us know how you like it and post a thread about now that you have it how much fun it is and how to tighten up the groups or something.

RCG


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## ssnxp

recoilguy said:


> This is your first gun?
> 
> I would be hard pressed to say you were settling for a loaded. If I were to buy a 1911 right now I would hold out for either a Dan wesson or the Trojan, but I own quite a few guns already. I am not saying don't hold out for the one gun but I am saying getting a loaded is far from settling in my humble opinion.
> 
> Good luck man get one of them and let us know how you like it and post a thread about now that you have it how much fun it is and how to tighten up the groups or something.
> 
> RCG


I definitely will, as soon as I get my hands on one! I'll be sure to post plenty of pictures too (I'm a part-time photographer). I didn't mean "settle" to belittle the Loaded in any way, I could have chosen better words. I meant it seems it would be easier to find a Loaded, since SA is sold at MANY more places than STI. The STI would have to be bought online for sure. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> Thanks you, I called them. They told me the only 9mm Sprinfield 1911s they carry are the EMP (micro), and that's going for $1199.
> 
> I read through your 1911 blog/article, and I appreciate it all very much. Point blank question: Should I go for the Trojan or settle for the Loaded?


I don't see STI on the CA DOJ approved list.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> I don't see STI on the CA DOJ approved list.


You're completely right. Thanks, that takes STI off my list. I've recently fallen in love with the Sig P226, and I shot it a bunch at the range. It was actually the first gun I shot there a while back, actually. I didn't think about it too much then, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Unfortunately, I'm still strung out on the fact that it doesn't have a manual safety.

Would it be possible for a gunsmith to put a manual safety on the P226? Would it interfere with the decocking lever? The P226 X-Five has a manual safety, but it's quite out of my price range.


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> Would it be possible for a gunsmith to put a manual safety on the P226?


No. At least it would not be easy nor cost effective. There are some 220 Carry SAO models available for sale in CA, but those are .45ACP and smaller in size.

If I were you I'd just "settle" for the SA Loaded, IMHO it's not settling in the least, it's a fine gun and truth be told, I've seen some pretty rough STI guns and would rather have Springer unless I was looking for a double stack option.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> No. At least it would not be easy nor cost effective. There are some 220 Carry SAO models available for sale in CA, but those are .45ACP and smaller in size.
> 
> If I were you I'd just "settle" for the SA Loaded, IMHO it's not settling in the least, it's a fine gun and truth be told, I've seen some pretty rough STI guns and would rather have Springer unless I was looking for a double stack option.


Got it, thank you. Going to take the test for my certificate today, so I'll be checking out a few stores to see what they have in stock. I'll report back. Hopefully I'll be able to find a 9mm Loaded.


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## yzfrider

ssnxp said:


> .....I'm looking for a pistol for *home defense *and *target practice*, and *I'm not too worried about it's size*. If I do get a Concealed Carry License (HAH, California..), I'd purchase a sub compact just for that. ......
> 2.	Budget: I'd feel comfortable spending around *$600*, maybe more if I really liked something I found; *Definitely under a grand, though*.
> 3.	*Manual Safety. Also a decocking lever (Do all safeties act as a decocking lever?)*
> 4.	Visible hammer. This rules out Glocks
> 5.	Night sights would be great, but not necessary; especially for my budget.
> 6.	Easy to take apart and clean. I really want to learn the gun, and not just shoot it.


Just curious to know what the hang up on the safety is. Like many things in life, muscle memory is key, and in a defense situation, your adding a step (assuming that you've practiced the extra step).

If your target shooting, do you really need a safety? The best safety is not to have your finger on the trigger until your ready to shoot. Just my .02, and I love my 226 9 mm.


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## ssnxp

A safety has always been on my list of requirements, I guess it just adds an extra layer of "security blanket." I understand that there is no safetly greater than that of the human brain, but a manual safety would make me feel a little more secure with my first firearm.

However, I'm going to the range again very soon and I might reevaluate my stance on the manual safety. I also need to find a well-stocked retailer here in SoCal, the place I went to today to get my HSC was EXTREMELY overpriced; Their prices are ABOVE and beyond MSRP.


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## VAMarine

ssnxp said:


> A safety has always been on my list of requirements, I guess it just adds an extra layer of "security blanket." I understand that there is no safetly greater than that of the human brain, but a manual safety would make me feel a little more secure with my first firearm.
> 
> However, I'm going to the range again very soon and I might reevaluate my stance on the manual safety. I also need to find a well-stocked retailer here in SoCal, the place I went to today to get my HSC was EXTREMELY overpriced; Their prices are ABOVE and beyond MSRP.


Where in SoCal are you? If you're not too far from Oceanide, I seem to remember there being a good range that had a wide selection of rentals.

ETA: This might be the place I was thinking of: Iron-Sights, I seem to recall it being named something else, but that was a while ago.


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## ssnxp

VAMarine said:


> Where in SoCal are you? If you're not too far from Oceanide, I seem to remember there being a good range that had a wide selection of rentals.
> 
> ETA: This might be the place I was thinking of: Iron-Sights, I seem to recall it being named something else, but that was a while ago.


Thank you, it's about an hour from me, but it'd be worth it if the prices are fair.


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## ssnxp

I got myself into the range today, with a little more objective mindsent in looking at my gun choices. Here's a little update..

*Beretta 92FS*: It's huge. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't "fit" me great either. It's been crossed off my list.

*CZ 75*: I really wanted to like this pistol (I was interested in the 75 SP-01), but it just didn't happen. My friend shot well with it, but I couldn't. I'm sure with practice I could get used to it, but, like the Beretta, it just didn't "fit" me well.

*Glock 17 + 19*: Not bad. Seems solid, but didn't blow me out of the water.

*Sig P226*: I liked it. If it had a safety (or if the X-five was less expensive), it'd be PERFECT for me. If I had to choose out of the choices listed above so far, it would definitely be the 226, even without the safety.

I also shot a bunch of 1911s, but they were all .45 caliber. I shot MUCH better with 1911's than I did with the other pistols. I wasn't sure if it was because I actually shoot better with a 1911, or if I shoot better with the .45 caliber. To test this out, I tried shooting a .45 Glock (G21 I believe). I did not do as well as I did with a Kimber TLE or Springer, don't remember which model.

I did some online browsing on www.sportingarms.com and requested the prices for some Kimbers.. and surprisingly, there were many under a grand!

*
The Kimbers I am currently looking at:*

Pro Carry II $731
Pro Carry II (Stainless) $810

Custom Stainless $777
Custom Target Stainless $901

What do you think, should I go for a Kimber? I've heard it's LOVE or HATE with Kimber, depending on whether or not you get a "good" piece..


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## Razor

If you're thinking about a Sig 226, I would strongly recommend you look at the FNP-9 USG. It resembles the 226, meets all your criteria, and goes for around $600. I have both the FNP-9 USG and the FNP-45 with a manual saftey. Both are great shooting, reliable weapons and made in the USA. As an aside I also have a Taurus PT-1911 .45 cal which has given me hours of enjoyment at the range without any issues. Just my $0.02


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## Freedom1911

ssnxp, VAmarine.

I mentioned the Para 18-9 for two reasons. Firstly it is a 1911 build in 9mm which is what ssnxp was asking about. Second as I and you two pointed out the 18+1 capacity may be an issue since California has the bogus 10 round limit.

The cost of the mags as pointed out being 50.00 a pop is excessive and may deter, but while ssnxp currently lives in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, they may move in the future to escape the Commie state. If that were to happen, they could then buy higher capacity mags for the same gun. If ssnxp knows they will live in the Red state for the rest of their life then the Para can still be considered but not as strongly.

I try to consider the future in my gun purchases, Putting the Para 18-9 out there gives ssnxp a option for having that 1911 9mm they want now, and still be able to expand capacity (in the 1911 model) in the future should they decide to move to a freer state without having to buy another 1911 9mm pistol. Spend a little more now to save a lot later.

Cheers:smt1099


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## Freedom1911

ssnxp said:


> So I just got back from the range not too long ago, I shot the glock a lot more. I didn't find it amazing, but I had 0 problems with it. I don't know whether I like the glock or XD better, though. They feel about the same to me. However, the owner of the range informed me that repairs on glocks could be done by third party sources, as you can buy glock parts. Springfield does not sell parts for the XD.. This pushes me towards the way of the glock.
> 
> However, I still really want a 1911.. just debating whether to shell out the money to get one now, *or *to buy the Glock 17 and learn to take it apart, clean it, learn to handle and shoot it well, and THEN get a .45 1911 later on.


I have both the G17 and the XD/XDm 9mm, all are good guns and magazines are much cheaper than 50.00:smt033. 
It is true that Springfield is tight about their parts and the like, I guess they like to keep things in house. 
The Glock is a very simple gun, but it is a good gun. And you can do everything under the sun to it with the multitude of after market and oem parts that you can get.

The 1911 in 9mms cost is prohibitive from any manufacturer, but I understand your attraction to it. I have wanted one for a long time.

Keep looking and saving your money. Eventually you will decide firmly or not weather it has to be a 1911 or if you will be happy with another. Have you looked at the Bersa HiCapacity 9mm Pro? If your range has one that you can rent, it would be worth the looking.

Cheers:smt1099


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## Mariano

In IL, you can get an Armscor 1911 in 9mm or 38 super for about $385 depending on the model 1911 you are looking for. Look into them because they also supply Kimber and Rock Island Armory with the frames and slides that they build their custom guns with.


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## Bgreg

Don't overlook Rock Island Armory 1911's. You seem to be more focused on 9mm but mentioned a 45 is not out of the question. RIA's come in full size, 5" barrel and compact size 3.5" barrel. Excellent reliability, excellent service should you ever need it, lifetime warranty AND you can find them new for under $500 all day long.


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## Q-Tip-81

I ended up going with the Springfield 1911 - MilSpec with a Parkerized finish for my first handgun. Later, I threw on a Hogue grip and away I went.

I'm very satisfied with my decision.....while 45acp is pretty expensive right now, I plan on getting some equipment to begin reloading in the near future. I doubt I'll save money, but I know I'll shoot a heck of a lot more. :smt033


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