# CSI Shoot-out, New Episode, What Should We Do?



## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

If anyone gets a chance, they should watch the new CSI episode. There is a handgun shoot-out on a Las Vegas train. 
Basically, a guy walks onto the train already stabbed, and when his brother notices, he goes to him and pulls the knife out. A CC Holder ("Cowboy") doesn't realize the guy was already stabbed, but sees the brother pull the knife out and Cowboy draws his firearm and points it at the brother with the knife (who "appears" to be the stabber, but is not.). Cowboy starts to shoot the brother with the knife, but an armed security guard on the train sees Cowboy draw his gun, so the armed guard draws and fires at the Cowboy, hitting him in the chest and killing him. The Cowboy gets off two rounds: one at the brother with the knife and the other at the guard. Guard and brother are injured. 

Setting aside this is Television and a contrived event, this brings up an important concealed carry question: If we are in a situation where an armed guard is present or an armed LE is present, and we feel the need to draw our gun to defend ourself or someone whose life is in danger, what should we do?

If I draw my weapon, the guard/LE may think I am the assailant and react to my firearm and shoot me. If I don't draw, then I am hoping that the guard/LE will handle the situation. On the other hand, I may need to defend myself, but if the guard/LE is drawing their firearm on me, things may happen so fast that I risk them shooting me if I hesitate or try to surrender. My instinct would likely be to shoot a person pointing a firearm at me, but that could result in shooting a guard/LE....not something I would want, obviously. On the other hand, I might recognize the LE/guard's authority and drop my firearm and try to surrender. This presents a moral dilemma. What to do?

This situation may be more common that we think since here in the States, especially in populous areas where CC is an option, there are a lot of guards and LE and off-duty LE and even federal agents. 

Serious replies, please.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> If anyone gets a chance, they should watch the new CSI episode. There is a handgun shoot-out on a Las Vegas train.
> 
> If I draw my weapon, the guard/LE may think I am the assailant and react to my firearm and shoot me. If I don't draw, then I am hoping that the guard/LE will handle the situation. On the other hand, I may need to defend myself, but if the guard/LE is drawing their firearm on me, things may happen so fast that I risk them shooting me if I hesitate or try to surrender. My instinct would likely be to shoot a person pointing a firearm at me, but that could result in shooting a guard/LE....not something I would want, obviously. On the other hand, I might recognize the LE/guard's authority and drop my firearm and try to surrender. This presents a moral dilemma. What to do?


in this case, i think the best and safest course of action is to turn the channel until you find a more realistic shootout to wonder about.

but thats just me.


----------



## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

ROFL!

Where I hand out in NoVa, though I see LE and FBI/CIA quite frequently. In fact, there are optometrists offices that specialize in shooting glasses for LE and special agents because of the demand. 

Statistically speaking, in Virginia there is about a 3-4% chance of another armed individual being in the room/area where a shootout occurs. And, while that seems small, it still means 3-4 out of every 100 people walking into a convenience store or liquore store or bank is carrying. (Not taking into account illegal carrying or criminals)

I think the question is one I would certainly like to know the answer to.

Thanks,


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

A more practical answer would be...

If I feel the need to draw my weapon, it'll be accompanied by my telling the dirtbag, or in this case brother of the victim, to drop the GD knife. If the security guard isn't sharp enough to pick up on that, well then, the dice have been rolled.

Switch the situation around, say you're in the security guards position (not necessarily a security guards but you get the point). Are you keen enough to pay attention to details like what I mentioned above? Can you determine who's helping and who's hurting? 

Furthermore, if the bus is stopped, I'd probably just grab the nearest people to me and GTFO of the bus. Not my job to play hero/rambo/savior.


----------



## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

zhurdan,
I agree with you. 
However, what I am really hoping to hear is what is the moral and proper course of action when in a situation where a armed guard or LE is present and I need to defend myself? Not everybody is paying attention to everything that is going on at all times. It is entirely possible for a guard/LE to only pay attention after an incident has started.

It might be different for LE and armed guard. I am assuming that most LE's are much better trained than most armed guards. If that is the case, then I might be more inclined to return fire to an armed guard and less inclined to return fire to LE. The reason is that an LE is more likely to consider the possibility that I am defending myself, whereas an armed guard may just be reacting without LE training. (No offense intended to armed guards here.)

I still haven't heard a good answer hear, other than the one that made me ROFL>


----------



## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

cclaxton said:


> Basically, a guy walks onto the train already stabbed, and when his brother notices, he goes to him and pulls the knife out.


Since no one else did, I feel the need to point out that doing this with a penetration wound is incredibly stupid, and the victim has a better chance of surviving if the foreign object is left in place.

KG


----------



## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

*(Concealed Weapon Permit Badge) To show people they are the good guy.*


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Cat said:


> *(Concealed Weapon Permit Badge) To show people they are the good guy.*


Sorry Cat, but those things leave a baaaaaad taste in the mouth of most people who carry a gun... including officers who see them. I seriously can't count how many times the LEO's I know make fun of that stuff and say it's going to eventually going to get someone killed BECAUSE it looks like a badge.


----------



## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

If your life is truly being threatened and escape and evasion are not an option then what other option is there than to defend yourself? Hope that someone else will do it for you? If you see the bad guy as a threat to your life, then the other armed citizens around (LE, guards, private citizens, whatever) will probably see them the same way. Either way, the actual threat must be neutralized before concern for any potential threats can be considered. Anything can be what-if'ed to death. If you were out in the middle of the ocean and all the wings fell off your canoe, how many apples would you have left, true or false?


----------



## noway2 (Jun 18, 2011)

This situation / scenario raise a really important point about using your weapon in the defense of another. In many states, you are permitted to defend someone, provided that they would have been entitled to use a weapon in SD (e.g. they are not an aggressor). The problem is that as a 3rd party, you need to be really sure of the facts before taking action. Unless you have been there from the beginning, and sometimes not even then, this can be really tricky, as the CSI scene shows.


----------



## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

noway2 said:


> This situation / scenario raise a really important point about using your weapon in the defense of another. In many states, you are permitted to defend someone, provided that they would have been entitled to use a weapon in SD (e.g. they are not an aggressor). The problem is that as a 3rd party, you need to be really sure of the facts before taking action. Unless you have been there from the beginning, and sometimes not even then, this can be really tricky, as the CSI scene shows.


After further analysis and reflection, I think the security guard should have not fired and was liable for Cowboys death. Initially, The Cowboy was not pointing the gun at the guard, so the guard was not threatened. The Cowboy only fired when the guard fired at him. The guard should have considered the possibility that the Cowboy was drawing in self-defense.

This may not have happened if the guard was LEO with sufficient training and judgement to withhold the use of his firearm until the Cowboy became an aggressor. The guard had no right to stop the Cowboy from defending himself. A guy turning at me with a bloody knife he just pulled out of someone else is sufficient cause in my book.

If the result would have been the Cowboy survived and the guard was killed, it seems like it would have been self-defense.

The other really wierd thing is how the Octopus was shot....and even wierder....the reason the Asian woman had the Octopus.....you have to see it to believe it.


----------



## JBarL (Sep 15, 2011)

As a Certified Instructor I will Chime in with my advice I give my Students in my class, If you are in a public place. example, you walk out of a store into a parking lot going to your vehicle. You notice a green mini van stopped right in front of the store and the sliding passaenger door on drivers side opens and 4 people get out and drivers door opens and driver exits vehicle. walk behind the van to a car parked in a spot. two people are standing behind the car and all of the people grab this female and drags her to the van, now female is screaming and kicking, no weapons are present. and puts female in van and starts up van to drive off. what do you do? ANSWER: without knowing the situation and no weapons are involved you would not be justified in using a handgun to stop this act if you choose to pull your gun then you could be charged with a crime. now this example I used was a actual event that happened and is on a video. the people in van went to store to get their runaway daughter, their former neighbor called parents said child was at store. the parents were moving to another state, child didn't want to leave her friends so she ran away. with all this said, Make sure you know all the details about the situation before you jump in playing super citizen. And Make sure you are fully justifed in Using FORCE Or DEADLY FORCE always be aware of your surroundings but also be aware or the Laws in your State some DEADLY FORCE laws differ from state to state. hope this clarifies situations a little more for you as the saying goes T.V. is not reality but one must know the laws on what to do and what not to do.

JBarL


----------



## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

JBarL,
Thanks for your reply. I think it goes without saying that without a firearm being present there is clearly no justification, and even then I would not feel compelled to fire when my life was not in danger and no clear and present threat existed that someone else's life was on the line. 

But the question I am asking is a bit more complicated. When you are in a self-defense situation and you feel your life is threatened and a security guard or LEO is present, what should you do? Split-second decisions need to be made and I would like to know what the proper course of action would be. I am not asking for legal advice, but there is both a moral and legal question at work here. I might morally be justified but going eyeball to eyeball with a security officer or LEO is not something I am ready to do. 

Of course not every security guard or LEO is well trained enough to know the right response. They might shoot first and ask questions later. 

Tough call.


----------



## JBarL (Sep 15, 2011)

Well On your question I would say this ( for me only ) I would try very hard to get out of the situation by ducking and taking cover or leave the area if possible. with that said why? Well we know that if Law enforcement or even security was on scene. I would not display my gun, reason being in the heat of the situation in their eyes instead of seeing One threat with a weapon, now they see two. Just dont put yourself in harms way when trained paid officals are on scene. 
now this is what I would do in that situation find cover get my phone out immedialty call 911 give my description tell them I'm a CHL holder and that my gun is holstered, give a complete description of the bad guy what he is wearing what type of gun, the location we are at what he is saying or doing and tell them about how many people are in jeopardy, I would even go into the lines of try to describe his behavior if he is jumpy, or act like he is strung out on drugs, or he is acting like he is sucidal. but most of all just keep on phone with them as they can hear back ground noises and it will keep you calm. cause the dispatcher will do their best to calm you down and they will know you are the good guy on the phone cause you done gave them your information. hope this helps you or I made a little more sense, Not only am I a instructor But I have been in the security field for 16 yrs. so oberserve and report Im pretty much used to lol.


----------



## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

JBarL said:


> Well On your question I would say this ( for me only ) I would try very hard to get out of the situation by ducking and taking cover or leave the area if possible. with that said why? Well we know that if Law enforcement or even security was on scene. I would not display my gun, reason being in the heat of the situation in their eyes instead of seeing One threat with a weapon, now they see two. Just dont put yourself in harms way when trained paid officals are on scene.


That is the best answer I have heard so far. A lot depends on how the situation develops, but one thing I could start doing is surveying for LEO's and armed security guards. That way I can plan my response differently than if none were there. But if they are there, I will have to let them deal with it unless they themselves are taken out.


----------



## JBarL (Sep 15, 2011)

cclaxton,
I am glad that my answer was usful input for you. that scenerio simular to what I use in my training classes and you would be amazed of the answers I get alot of questions are why would you use the phone and not the gun. I tell them some times the phone is alot more powerful than a gun and I never heard of someone getting tossed in jail cause their cell phone killed a innocent bystander. glad I was able to help you. best of luck to you

JBarL


----------



## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

The scene is kind of a rip off of one from one of the Lethal Weapon movies. Mel Gibson sees a crime in progress and gives chase with his gun drawn. But it is only a scene being filmed for a commercial.

My position is that it is the obligation for the strong to protect the weak. So I would feel obligated to do something if it were apparent that he was going to stab again. But if he (the knife-wielder) makes no overt action towards the original victim or another, then I would not use the weapon.

In New York, civilians are not permitted to shoot at a fleeing felon unless they are fleeing from an arson, rape or murder. In all other cases civilians must allow the bad guy to flee (or chase them on foot and tackle them).

(So, since you can't always prove rape or murder, you should always carry a pack of matches to drop by the corpse--you can shoot at fleeing arsonists.)


----------



## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

SMann said:


> ...Anything can be what-if'ed to death. If you were out in the middle of the ocean and all the wings fell off your canoe, how many apples would you have left, true or false?


The brown one


----------



## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

No I did not see that episode, and glad I didn't. All that would have done is tick me off.


----------

