# Is Run and Gun Training useful?



## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

Here is a 30 sec run and gun video with a MP Sport and a Sig P6. My question is do you guys integrate Run and Gun in your training or just static shooting? If you do, do you think it is really useful training?


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

I would say no matter the type of firearms training that is available either with a class or do it yourself can be useful and helpful...... The more training the better same goes for shooting your weapon........

However there are not many ranges that have the opportunity to do run and gun...... Those that own a farm or a lot of land have the luxury of many more options than urban shooters..........


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## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

All training is useful


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

As stated before im new to this stuff, but it is more fun and while i could add plenty of things to make it better training at least its a small improvement***


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Beware: "Run and Gun" frequently works out to be something other than training.

The point of the exercise must absolutely be making solid, accurate hits while moving.
But many "run and gun" exercises seem to be about making any hit, anywhere, while using the least time to finish the course.
If speed is the main criterion, then the exercise is not teaching you good, useful technique. It is not training, in the accepted meaning of the word.

The entire point of self-defense (_i.e._, "practical") shooting is making quick, fight-stopping hits out to at least 20 yards.
Everything else is merely accessory to that.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

I guess what we are really practicing is quick sight alignment and accuracy while shooting multiple rounds. Then we look and see if we hit within the circle we drew on the card board. Either way it's fun


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

wolverine_173 said:


> I guess what we are really practicing is quick sight alignment and accuracy while shooting multiple rounds. Then we look and see if we hit within the circle we drew on the card board. Either way it's fun


How about run and jam, or misfire, 
NOW YOUR LEARNING


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

pic said:


> How about run and jam, or misfire,
> NOW YOUR LEARNING


im sure that will happen and it will be good to learn


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

wolverine_173 said:


> im sure that will happen and it will be good to learn


I'm not sure if there is a way to purposely set up the gun to fail without damaging the gun.
In my opinion that would be good practice if the failure occurs intermittent .thanks:smt1099


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*To Set Up The Gun To Fail:*
Have someone else load your magazines.
Ask that person to randomly add a snap-cap, or more than one, instead of one or more of the real cartridges.
(However, more than two per magazine is more hassle than learning experience.)

Sometimes, two snap-caps in a row is instructive.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

++1


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *To Set Up The Gun To Fail:*
> Have someone else load your magazines.
> Ask that person to randomly add a snap-cap, or more than one, instead of one or more of the real cartridges.
> (However, more than two per magazine is more hassle than learning experience.)
> ...


Good idea, I believe it should come instinctively to clear a misfire or a jam. 
I see shooters who are surprised, caught off guard when it does happen. Very slow to react.
That is why I preferred years ago to carry a revolver.
UNTIL I bought a govt 1911 , I could never trust auto's.

Snap caps are a great idea . Any other creative ideas? Maybe buying a 22 rim fire auto . They tend to jam up in all different crazy configurations , not sure if that would be good practice.

We are getting clobbered with snow over here, blizzard conditions today.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

I'm going to try to include different shooting positions, reloads and snap caps into my shooting drills.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

_After you achieve some proficiency_, start moving immediately at the onset of a threat.
Shoot while moving.
If you can simulate it, move toward bulletproof cover as you shoot.
Finish stopping the threat from behind cover, exposing as little of yourself as you can.

Threat targets should be at varying distances, spread out both width-wise and distance-wise, and from two through 15 yards away.
Shoot the nearest threat first, especially if he has a (simulated) knife.
But if even the furthest threat has a simulated long gun (rifle? shotgun?), get him first.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> _After you achieve some proficiency_, start moving immediately at the onset of a threat.
> Shoot while moving.
> If you can simulate it, move toward bulletproof cover as you shoot.
> Finish stopping the threat from behind cover, exposing as little of yourself as you can.
> ...


sounds like you have had alot of training, whats your background if you dont mind me asking?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I've been shooting, on and off, since about 1950: .22 rimfire, large-caliber muzzleloaders, deer-hunting-and-defensive-shooting high-power rifle, and, of course, all kinds of pistols.
I started competing in IPSC/SWPL in 1978, with modest success.
A few years later (ca. 1981), I quit IPSC (because it wasn't _practical_ shooting at all) and helped found an entirely new, completely practical offensive- and defensive-shooting discipline. It continues to be successful in Southern California, although I finally retired from all competition and moved to a different part of the US.
I like to teach, and I do it pretty well. Among other people, I taught my wife to shoot; and now she is better at close-range defensive shooting than I am.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Sorry to interrupt ,
Steve, 
Your modest words , gives credence to your character .
Thanks buddy boy. You may not realize, but you are very


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

In the video, the shooter had a backup -- a pistol -- and he used it ok.

He is rather slow and would get killed in a real life situation -- he should have kept moving even with the jam.

You're shooting and moving ... your gun jams ... O-SH!T moment ... keep moving ... try to clear the jam from behind cover ... tap and rack ... then eject, rack, reload and rack ... if that does not fix it then go to the backup because your carbine is then stone cold.

But DONT EVER stand out in the open frozen for any time at all.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Is it useful training? What are the chances that you would get into a moving gunfight?

None / slim / maybe / lots / certain ???

For a soldier I would say certain.

For a LEO I would say maybe.

For certain or maybe, I would say the training is good.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

AdamSmith said:


> In the video, the shooter had a backup -- a pistol -- and he used it ok.
> 
> He is rather slow and would get killed in a real life situation -- he should have kept moving even with the jam.
> 
> ...


We were not necessarily doing shooting while moving, more of shoot run stop then shoot


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

It's very good to learn to shoot on the move, a moving target is harder to hit. Movement is the key though, you can't hit squat at a full run so you have to learn a quick fluid shuffle (so to speak) so your sights aren't flailing all over the place. Bending the knees turns them into a kind of shock absorber and you can move any direction, practice keeping you butt on a parallel plane (or datum line) and your upper body and gun will be more steady. Don't move in a straight line either if you aren't forced to, like going for close cover. If you're out in the open weaving makes a hit harder and blading your body gives a smaller target. There's also a belief that rushing your aggressor can give you an advantage but that depends on the devotion they have to hurt you. You're everyday punk will freak out and back away but someone committed won't be so intimidated.

The threat assessment mentioned is always good whether you're moving or not. Your closest threat is generally the highest but the furthest away is also because they have more time to aim if they are armed. If both of those are drill the close one fast then go long and work it out after those 2 hits, this is where accuracy for head shots really helps your butt.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

we will have to work on that


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

wolverine_173 said:


> We were not necessarily doing shooting while moving, more of shoot run stop then shoot


Every time you practice a bad habit it becomes more engrained. It is beyond me why anyone would practice something that could get them killed in the real situation. Farm animal stupid.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

rex said:


> It's very good to learn to shoot on the move, a moving target is harder to hit. Movement is the key though, you can't hit squat at a full run so you have to learn a quick fluid shuffle (so to speak) so your sights aren't flailing all over the place. Bending the knees turns them into a kind of shock absorber and you can move any direction, practice keeping you butt on a parallel plane (or datum line) and your upper body and gun will be more steady. Don't move in a straight line either if you aren't forced to, like going for close cover. If you're out in the open weaving makes a hit harder and blading your body gives a smaller target. There's also a belief that rushing your aggressor can give you an advantage but that depends on the devotion they have to hurt you. You're everyday punk will freak out and back away but someone committed won't be so intimidated.
> 
> The threat assessment mentioned is always good whether you're moving or not. Your closest threat is generally the highest but the furthest away is also because they have more time to aim if they are armed. If both of those are drill the close one fast then go long and work it out after those 2 hits, this is where accuracy for head shots really helps your butt.


In addition to these excellent recommendations, I would add kneeling and prone shooting as well.

Your profile is smaller when kneeling, and your shooting is more accurate.

Your profile is smallest when prone. And you can learn to roll out of a prone position to get back up on your feet and get moving again.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Don't ever kneel!*
If you have time to kneel, you have time to go prone. Smaller target, steadier position.
If you kneel out in the open, you make yourself a stationary, compact target. You are actually easier to hit.
Further, it's hard to get up again quickly.

But still, much _the best thing to do is to move_ across the enemy's field of vision and fire.
Move while shooting. Don't stop to shoot.

The "waddle" is sometimes called "the Groucho walk." If you have ever seen old Marx Brothers movies, you will know what it means.
Keeping your knees bent helps keep your torso from bobbing up and down. This lets you shoot with reasonable accuracy, while moving.

You don't have to move quickly. Mere movement is enough.
Your enemy is most likely a much worse shot than you, so merely moving keeps him from making hits.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

There are elements to be aware of when going prone. 
If going prone on a hard surface like concrete, the bullet will more then likely ricochet off of the concrete or similar surface . Like skipping stones.
Going prone in a more looser ,will say grassy type of soil,, the chance of a ricochet is very unlikely and being prone is a great choice.. Strictly My opinion of course. There may be more to this then I'm aware.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*pic*, I learned the same thing.
I should've written that. Thanks for catching the error.

I learned that I need to go to prone for pistol shots out beyond 25 yards, assuming that there's time. I am just not steady enough for NRA-target-style shooting.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Only prone shooting I use is urban prone (on side)... this raises the gun higher off the ground and allows for a greater range of motion in the event you have multiple attackers or your attacker moves. Also shooting off your back is a good skill to learn in the event your backpedaling and fall backwards. The traditional prone has too many limitations and is not ideal for an exchange of fire situation imo... it has it's time & place... just not sure it's in the middle of a firefight.

Just my opinion... but I can get in & out of a kneeling position much quicker than prone. Also, i'm not sure the "Die Hard" roll-out-of-the-way technique is really practical. Kneeling should be used in conjunction with cover and not used in the open... keep on your feet when cover is not available and move towards cover (if possible).

Interesting exchange of ideas though.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *pic*, I learned the same thing.
> I should've written that. Thanks for catching the error.
> 
> I learned that I need to go to prone for pistol shots out beyond 25 yards, assuming that there's time. I am just not steady enough for NRA-target-style shooting.


Lol, I know , my knee has no flexibility today or yesterday, I may start to kneel only because of the ricochet effect, but end up prone. Might as we'll take one in a comfortable position,lol.
It's funny how the knees will work during times of adrenaline and or FEAR. 
Steadiness that you talk about I understand, you have to weigh your options verses your abilities . And it's a hard thing to justify sometimes until you reach that point of knowing what's best for you,, thanks pal, have great weekend, going out to dinner. It's an after dinner blizzard,lol:smt1099


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

TAPnRACK said:


> Only prone shooting I use is urban prone (on side)... this raises the gun higher off the ground and allows for a greater range of motion in the event you have multiple attackers or your attacker moves. Also shooting off your back is good skill to learn in the event your backpedaling and fall backwards. The traditional prone has too many limitations and is not ideal for an exchange of fire situation imo... it has it's time & place... just not sure it's in the middle of a firefight.
> 
> Just my opinion... but I can get in & out of a kneeling position much quicker than prone. Also, i'm not sure the "Die Hard" roll-out-of-the-way technique is really practical. Kneeling should be used in conjunction with cover and not used in the open... keep on your feet when cover is not available and move towards cover (if possible).
> 
> Interesting exchange of ideas though.


Always good to here your words , they are full of experience. One thing I would stress is when seeking cover. Will the bullet penetrate that cover? Treat every bullet in a self defense mode as a penetrating round. Knowing the difference of cover to hide or cover to stop that penetrating round is not a practiced procedure amongst amateur range shooters . It's always a pleasure to read your input TAP N RACK. I May be off here, feel free to counter , my experience is unequaled to your's. 
Ok see y'all later , very well .
Pic


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Thank you for the kind words pic...

Knowing the difference between COVER & CONCEALMENT is vital to every shooter looking to get out of harms way. 

What may conceal or "hide" you may not always stop a bullet. Only cover will/should protect you from incoming rounds... but understand there are no absolutes. Bushes & wood fences will conceal you but may allow rounds through... vs a brick wall or the engine block area of a vehicle which would be more ideal. Knowing the difference will help you when scanning the area for a way out or "safe route".


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Steve, thank you for the Groucho analogy, that describes it great. Keep your ass on a level plane and let your legs and knees play suspension.

Great info going on here. I also agree kneeling and to a point prone are bad tactical moves. Kneeling does exactly as Steve said, it turns you into a nice round ball to hit easier than a tall stick standing up- or a skinny stick if you blade your body. Prone can work the same way if you are normal prone, an elevation error on their part can still get a hit. Rollover or side prone reduces that risk.

Something a lot of people don't think about is the use of ricochets, pavement and walls work great. I know it's been seen in the movies of someone being shot in the foot standing behind a car, but it works. I was taught to never crowd cover or hover down a wall. Crowding cover exposes more of you looking around it, if you back off less of you is available as a target. Stay off of walls if you must run a hallway or alley, if a bullet strikes the wall in front of you it will bounce off the wall and travel down it. At first thought you would think the bullet deflects off at an appropriate angle but it doesn't work like you would think, it actually deflects off at an acuter angle. If you shoot down a long wall and strike the wall the bullet will deflect a few inches off of it and pretty much run parallel to it. If you are sneaking down that wall you may take a hit.

This really should be in the tactics section for more available viewing, but great discussion.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Standing upright in the middle of a gunfight is simply farm animal stupid.

You should only be upright and out in the open for the briefest moment while you draw and shoot.

Afterwards, or even before, you should get behind "cover" -- something that will at least deflect if not stop a bullet.

Kneeling behind cover gives you greater accuracy.

Going prone behind cover gives you greater accuracy as well.

The idea behind kneeling is greater accuracy alone. It also lowers your profile.

Going prone dramatically reduces your profile.

Most people have never tried kneeling or prone with a pistol or revolver. It is something that needs to be learned and practiced.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

AdamSmith said:


> Standing upright in the middle of a gunfight is simply farm animal stupid.
> 
> You should only be upright and out in the open for the briefest moment while you draw and shoot.
> 
> ...


thats what i plan on doing next time


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"Rollover prone," the best way to lie down with a pistol, is not a skill easily learned.
I strongly suggest that you need to find an experienced instructor to teach you how to get into it quickly and efficiently.
Also, it needs a good deal of practice to master.

A good instructor will also teach you about the serious consequences of kneeling, especially in the open.
If you're in the open, move.
If cover is nearby, move to cover. Then kneel, if you want to.

You have to plan your learning experience, and then follow your plan.
This is why an instructor is most useful: He or she will have a well-established lesson plan, and will move you through it as your skill-level increases.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Agreed... Rollover Prone is often referred to as Urban Prone which I mentioned in a previous post. Both are very different from the traditional prone position as they put you on your side vs on your stomach. A very useful position if you ever have to dive for cover or find yourself in need of low cover to shoot around or under. Not a big fan of shooting "over" cover as you expose your head and making yourself susceptible to a "head shot"... which 4 out of 5 doctors don't recommend.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

AdamSmith said:


> Standing upright in the middle of a gunfight is simply farm animal stupid.
> 
> You should only be upright and out in the open for the briefest moment while you draw and shoot.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you said in general but had to voice my outlook on the finer points. No 2 situations are the same when it comes to cover/barricades available and the quantity of assailants, so there are no hard set rules as to what you do. Something like taking cover is something you want to do, but if I have one guy 10ft in front of me I'm going to hammer him while stepping off line, cover isn't even a thought unless it's right next to me.

One thing I'd like to hear about is taking the offensive and rushing them, definitely out of the box for a defensive scenario.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

TAPnRACK said:


> Agreed... Rollover Prone is often referred to as Urban Prone which I mentioned in a previous post. Both are very different from the traditional prone position as they put you on your side vs on your stomach. A very useful position if you ever have to dive for cover or find yourself in need of low cover to shoot around or under. Not a big fan of shooting "over" cover as you expose your head and making yourself susceptible to a "head shot"... which 4 out of 5 doctors don't recommend.


Agreed, always peek around cover to protect as much as possible. The smart assailant would try a shot through cover hoping it isn't a barricade, but they can be pretty dumb. The doctor's comment was funny.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Figured i'd inject a little humor into the thread, lol.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

rex said:


> One thing I'd like to hear about is taking the offensive and rushing them, definitely out of the box for a defensive scenario.


This type of engagement is best for an offensive scenario vs a defensive scenario (but not always). We worked this type of training during an Active Shooter school last Fall. Using SIM rounds we trained in an abandoned school and had trainers playing the active shooter(s). One must be proficient in shooting while moving for this to be effective.

Using the steady "Groucho" walk Steve described earlier (very nice description btw) is how movement should be done as it eliminates "bounce" and makes aiming more accurate. That really is how it looks too... the legs move independently from your torso which turns much like the turret on a tank. You can move in one direction while firing rounds in another quite effectively using this technique. Be cognizant of your feet and avoid "crossing the feet" to prevent tripping or stumbling. Feet should use a heel to toe movement to ensure good footing since your attention is on the threat while moving... not your feet.

Once a threat is located, it is immediately engaged as you fire while closing the distance from you to the threat. This technique was utilized individually and as a group type engagement. I found this technique very effective when you have more than one person with you as everyone was firing while closing in. Not as effective in a 1 on 1 scenario... but definitely throws the other guy off his intended plan as this type of engagement is quite unorthodox and unexpected... which may create an advantage.

Like all techniques and philosophies... there is a time and a place. There is no steadfast rule of how every situation should be handled as real life exchanges of fire are fluid and dynamic. Things change and will dictate your response... the more tools in your toolbox, the more prepared for "whatever comes" you'll be.

*Agree that this thread should be moved into tactics section.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

rex said:


> I agree with what you said in general but had to voice my outlook on the finer points. No 2 situations are the same when it comes to cover/barricades available and the quantity of assailants, so there are no hard set rules as to what you do. Something like taking cover is something you want to do, but if I have one guy 10ft in front of me I'm going to hammer him while stepping off line, cover isn't even a thought unless it's right next to me.
> 
> One thing I'd like to hear about is taking the offensive and rushing them, definitely out of the box for a defensive scenario.


SWAT teams and the military train to rush positions if they can lay down a continuous spray of suppressing fire on the target. Obviously you could not do this yourself alone. There are general rules too -- three to one superiority in numbers at least.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

You guys reinforced my view of it. I've never had offensive training but have seen very limited snips of it. As TnR mentioned I could see it working quite well in a certain scenario like the street thug "bully", but they usually piss their pants and turn into a "Sheila" when they see you're going to hurt them.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

rex said:


> You guys reinforced my view of it. I've never had offensive training but have seen very limited snips of it. As TnR mentioned I could see it working quite well in a certain scenario like the street thug "bully", but they usually piss their pants and turn into a "Sheila" when they see you're going to hurt them.


Offensive shooting would be the boys in blue's job to do. That's what your cell phone is for. Just hunker down in a safe covered defensive position, then dial 9-1-1. Make sure you tell them "shots fired assistance needed."


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Do this, do that is fine in practice however if you happen to end up in a "shoot out" with a bad guy it is going to happen quickly. You most likely will not have time to decide what position to take, look around for best concealment or cover........ More than likely the incident will be over in a few short minutes..... Your brain is going to be processing loads of information during that short period of time....

You might want to go through these tips of the day by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman to see what can happen when in a shoot out...... Many of his tips a very enlightening.......(Note: they are combat tips but many apply to good guy bad guy shootings... worth the read)
Sheepdog Tip of the Day, During Combat tip 0


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

im trying to get some stuff to use as cover for next time we go out shooting. I think that will help


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

wolverine_173 said:


> im trying to get some stuff to use as cover for next time we go out shooting. I think that will help


1 - trees

2 - boulders

3 - etc.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Cait43 said:


> Do this, do that is fine in practice however if you happen to end up in a "shoot out" with a bad guy it is going to happen quickly. You most likely will not have time to decide what position to take, look around for best concealment or cover........ More than likely the incident will be over in a few short minutes..... Your brain is going to be processing loads of information during that short period of time....
> 
> You might want to go through these tips of the day by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman to see what can happen when in a shoot out...... Many of his tips a very enlightening.......(Note: they are combat tips but many apply to good guy bad guy shootings... worth the read)
> Sheepdog Tip of the Day, During Combat tip 0


Precisely why you should practice until something becomes automatic.

At the word "GUN!" you should draw while taking at least one step to your left, which gives you and extra 2 seconds to draw and shoot -- hopefully plenty of time -- while anyone with the drop on you will need to rethink what is going on and take aim again.

Then immediately take cover somewhere, and scan to see if your assailant is still there or is bleeding on the ground.

If this has been practiced and is automatic, then you won't need to spend/waste any time thinking -- because as you said there won't be time to think.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

be careful and know your situation. I heard a lady yell guy while screaming and running for the mall exit. Turns out it was an off duty cop that had a gun.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Here is some training to try..... Good luck....


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

thanks


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

AdamSmith said:


> Precisely why you should practice until something becomes automatic.
> 
> At the word "GUN!" you should draw while taking at least one step to your left, which gives you and extra 2 seconds to draw and shoot -- hopefully plenty of time -- while anyone with the drop on you will need to rethink what is going on and take aim again.
> 
> ...


 Somebody yells GUN!!
Then, if you instinctively draw your GUN.
That action might , just make you, "the guy" with the GUN.
But then again, all situations are different. It might be the correct move in that situation.
My opinion , it's not an automatic move.


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## wolverine_173 (May 8, 2013)

i agree


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

pic said:


> Somebody yells GUN!!
> Then, if you instinctively draw your GUN.
> That action might , just make you, "the guy" with the GUN.
> But then again, all situations are different. It might be the correct move in that situation.
> My opinion , it's not an automatic move.


I was talking about the drill. Not about the mall.

If somebody yells gun at the mall, then duck and cover.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

wolverine_173 said:


> i agree


Nice video, Woolverine, just don't stand in one place like that, ever.


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