# Help me decide on a single stage or progressive loader!



## numbertwo (May 28, 2012)

I want to get into loading, I initially decided on a single stage to start me off with reloading (9mm and .45acp only). The reason being I normally go to the range about once a month and shoot maybe 250-300. I've read in one of the stickys that it's not worth buying a progressive kit if I'm not in competition shooting and what not.

After talking to a 1 friend who's been reloading for 10yrs he advised to get a progressive kit due to the single stage being extremely slow and that he if he prepped all this supplies before hand that he could crank out about 500rds in 1hr with his progressive press.

While I don't really want to spend more than $200 on a kit, I don't mind too much saving at least up to $400-$500 to get a decent progressive kit BUT I'm just not sure if that would be best for my situation.


In your opinion what do you guys think would fit me best? A single stage or a progressive kit? Or maybe there's a simple, lightly priced kit that I can use in the mean time but allows for expanding/adding turning into a progressive type kit?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

You can use a single-stage loader to _approximate_ using a progressive machine. All it takes is good organizational skills, and some extra labor.

You need to get some appropriately-sized loading blocks. These are plastic things with cartridge-case-size holes in them. Each one usually holds 25 (or more) cases.
Then, you do each step in the reloading process to all of your empty cases, all at the same time, before moving on to the next step. As each case is put through each single process, you move the case from the full loading block to the empty one.
If you have 50 cleaned cases to reload, you start by decapping and sizing each case. Each decapped and sized case is moved from the full block, through the press, to the empty block, until all 50 cases have been decapped and sized.
Then you prime each case, moving the sized and decapped cases, one at a time, from the full block, through the priming set-up in the press, to the empty block. Next, the 50 now-primed cases are charged with powder, moving each case from the full block, to the powder measure, and then to the empty block.
Finally, the bullet is placed atop each sized, primed, and powder-charged case. Now you move one case at a time, from the full block, to the press and the seating-and-crimping die, and then to the empty block. (If you will be using a separate taper-crimp die, that will add one more 50-case process to the job.)
Now you're done.

This process takes about four times as long to accomplish, using a single-stage press, as it would through a progressive machine. It also requires at least three times as many pulls of the press's handle.
But if you're reloading only 250 to 300 cases a month, that really isn't much of a burden.

(I suggest that the hinge point, at which a progressive press becomes meaningfully useful, could be 500 empties to reload.)


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

For beginners I believe a singlstage is best,the KISS approach.Which one depends on what you will load.A cheaper C frame will handle pistol and same small rifle fine but can flex when you need to work bigger ones,and a good O frame will handle it all.An RCBS Partner press if still around is a C press,and the RockChucker I have is an O frame.While they are slower you are paying attention to every stage where on a progressive you have 5 or 6 things happening at once.Adjustments and wear can throw things out of sinc and even long time reloaders have had a hitch,cleared it,not thought and threw a double charge or no charge.When you hear of a gun blowing or a barrel going it's usually one of those as the cause.Just in the last month and limited time on some forums I've ran into at least 2 caused by a bad load from a progressive and one was from a commercial remanufactured ammo supplier,although they didn't name the company.Crap happens.You are going to learn alot in a short period of time,and you'll only know a little bit about it then,so simple for now is safer.

Singles are slow,but I do it in batches.I'll have a small bucket of brass and deprime/size and reprime them and throw them in another bucket and throw the lid on.Then I'll flare them all.Then I'll charge them,seat a bullet and crimp them-I believe taper crimping should be done seperately,especially with lead.Roll crimps need to be done while seating.That's the way my setup is,but it can be done a few ways through the stages.Besides the need for a good scale,a good powder measure is a must also to help cut time.I used to shoot quite a few hundred a month in 2-3 calibers for IPSC/IDPA type matches and never had a problem on a single keeping stocked up on an RCBS RockChucker and a Uniflow measure.

I like RCBS,the only flaw to the Chucker is the primer catcher is a little cheasey but it doesn't bother me,a few primers will pop out on the floor.Dillon pretty much dominates the progressives today.There's also turret presses,they aren't as strong as a single but close and you can swap calibers by just swapping a shellplate and head with all your dies mounted.For plinking ammo the type of press won't matter much,but for precision a single O frame is the most precise,a progressive or turret will depend on maker but there's play in the shellplate or toolhead that can affect consistancy,which is where accuracy comes from.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I reloaded for 29 years then gave all of my equipment away to a friend... who sold it a few years later when he was laid off. Go figure. I reloaded revolver ammunition, almost all of it either .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum for hunting and other uses. I had a single stage RCBS with all of the peripheral pieces, down to powder trickler, tungsten carbide dyes, loading manuals, and a bunch of other nice little pieces. I even built the table I use for my equipment. I have given some thought in the past couple of months about getting back into loading and if I did, I can assure you that I would go with a progressive machine.

It would take me about an hour to load 100 rounds and only if I was moving at a good clip with fresh brass. Used brass would keep me to around 50 rounds an hour. Now I was pretty meticulous and would measure sometimes every fifth round just to make sure that my powder measure was still dead on. Enter the trickler and you can see how the number of rounds per hour comes down.

Reloading can tax you if you are that precise but it doesn't have to be this way. You can kick out some pretty darned good loads with modern equipment and a quality progressive press can approach 500 rounds an hour, but even if you are doing 300 an hour, that is really good for range work. The thing is, you are going to save one heck of a lot of money doing this, to the point of hitting your break even point before you know it. So you may want to give this some real thought and spend the extra several hundred dollars for a good progressive machine. If you don't shoot that much then a single stage will serve your needs. On the other hand, if you hit the range every week or every two weeks and go through 100 rounds each trip, then a progressive machine is the way to go.


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## Mavrick (Feb 24, 2009)

I do things pretty much the same way Rex does. I may do it on a larger scale, tho'.
I shoot Steel Challenge, and did reasonably well with a 45 Auto M1911. I use a Tanfo .40, Limited, now.
I had about 5k of .45 cases to be loaded for practice and competition. I do the same for the .40, now.
First I size a couple hundred on my Rockchucker, then, after belling them, I toss them in the vibrator to clean the lube off the cases...3 hours should do. While THAT's goin' on, I size/bell more. The cases are dumped into a coffee can. I start another bunch.
As I watch TV(or not) I prime the cases that are ready for it, with a Lee primer tool. If I'm going to be gone for several hours (or days) I shut the vibrator down, and start again when I get back.
When I am ready to charge and seat, I get a loading block and fill it with primed cases, primers up, so I can make sure the cases are primed, and the primers are installed correctly. When I charge the cases, I can make sure the cases are filled and to the same amount. As soon as THAT's done I seat the bullets, and put them in another coffee can.
If I don't need any loaded ammo at this time, I can begin the process, if I have enough coffee cans. If I need loaded ammo, I can taper-crimp the loaded ammo and test-run them through the proper pistol to make sure they will feed/seat for competition.
If I don't have enough, I can go back a step and bring more up online.
After shooting, some people vibrate cases clean before sizing and beginning the process over. You always have something to do, but you're not overloaded with a VERY LARGE block of something very boring to do. This is done away with when using a progressive, but you lose quality-control. I know...there are lots of people out there that don't make mistake with their Dillons, and the blue machines are almost perfect. The machines are great, but the cases vary. If you do your inspections perfectly, it'll be a lot longer before you have a problem. With a progressive, it's not IF you'll have a problem...it's WHEN. I don't fault the machine, I fault the human running it.
At some point, you'll decide to make the step...so be it. You can then store the single stage, or even sell it. Your circumstances will tell you what to do.
Good luck and have fun,
Gene


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

I am one who jumped straight into a progressive machine. Granted it was on a small scale (Dillon Square Deal B) but still a progressive. I have never regretted the decision and in about 15 yrs of reloading I recently had my first squib load. I only reload pistol rounds and I used to shoot IPSC, Bowling Pin, and CAS. My machine is only for pistol calibers, which has never been an issue for me. Like others have mentioned, I only reload on an occasional basis. Usually when I get down to where I have only enough ammunition for 1 or 2 more range trips, I begin the reloading process. I usually load about 500 to 1,000 rounds at a sitting, and only one caliber in a session.

Ever since I have been re-loading my own ammunition,I have been reading recommendations that beginners start out on a single stage press in order to develop good habits. While I don't really think that is necessary, it is certainly not a bad idea to start out small and simple. If one decides to start with a single stage press, I would ecncourage starting with a press that can be converted into a progressive setup at a later date. Another advantage of a single stage press is that it is easier to experiment with different loads.

Good luck with your decision, and be safe!


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Mavrick said:


> but you lose quality-control. I know...there are lots of people out there that don't make mistake with their Dillons, and the blue machines are almost perfect. The machines are great, but the cases vary. If you do your inspections perfectly, it'll be a lot longer before you have a problem. With a progressive, it's not IF you'll have a problem...it's WHEN. I don't fault the machine, I fault the human running it.


I'm thinking High Pockets just blew that one eh?I'm not ragging you HP,just one more case to illustrate my and Maverick's point.The majority of quibs,KBs I see are from progressives.Normally you're kachunking along and a hitch hits,you clear it and don't think upon restart.Seen many cases of double charges and no charges this way after the story is told.Don't trust a powder check die too,they have failed also-look in those damn cases.

I almost set up full swing with a 650 but time constraints were keeping me from shooting more,and the wife was getting burned out tagging along to matches or me being gone to out of town shoots.Eventually I had to stop to handle life's hurdles and still haven't been able to get back into it.I miss it alot,but unfortunately I have more important things taking up my time still.Hell,it's hard to practice to get back where I used to be,I'm probably only a mid A class now after all this time.


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## numbertwo (May 28, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> You can use a single-stage loader to _approximate_ using a progressive machine. All it takes is good organizational skills, and some extra labor.
> 
> You need to get some appropriately-sized loading blocks. These are plastic things with cartridge-case-size holes in them. Each one usually holds 25 (or more) cases.
> Then, you do each step in the reloading process to all of your empty cases, all at the same time, before moving on to the next step. As each case is put through each single process, you move the case from the full loading block to the empty one.
> ...





rex said:


> For beginners I believe a singlstage is best,the KISS approach.Which one depends on what you will load.A cheaper C frame will handle pistol and same small rifle fine but can flex when you need to work bigger ones,and a good O frame will handle it all.An RCBS Partner press if still around is a C press,and the RockChucker I have is an O frame.While they are slower you are paying attention to every stage where on a progressive you have 5 or 6 things happening at once.Adjustments and wear can throw things out of sinc and even long time reloaders have had a hitch,cleared it,not thought and threw a double charge or no charge.When you hear of a gun blowing or a barrel going it's usually one of those as the cause.Just in the last month and limited time on some forums I've ran into at least 2 caused by a bad load from a progressive and one was from a commercial remanufactured ammo supplier,although they didn't name the company.Crap happens.You are going to learn alot in a short period of time,and you'll only know a little bit about it then,so simple for now is safer.
> 
> Singles are slow,but I do it in batches.I'll have a small bucket of brass and deprime/size and reprime them and throw them in another bucket and throw the lid on.Then I'll flare them all.Then I'll charge them,seat a bullet and crimp them-I believe taper crimping should be done seperately,especially with lead.Roll crimps need to be done while seating.That's the way my setup is,but it can be done a few ways through the stages.Besides the need for a good scale,a good powder measure is a must also to help cut time.I used to shoot quite a few hundred a month in 2-3 calibers for IPSC/IDPA type matches and never had a problem on a single keeping stocked up on an RCBS RockChucker and a Uniflow measure.
> 
> I like RCBS,the only flaw to the Chucker is the primer catcher is a little cheasey but it doesn't bother me,a few primers will pop out on the floor.Dillon pretty much dominates the progressives today.There's also turret presses,they aren't as strong as a single but close and you can swap calibers by just swapping a shellplate and head with all your dies mounted.For plinking ammo the type of press won't matter much,but for precision a single O frame is the most precise,a progressive or turret will depend on maker but there's play in the shellplate or toolhead that can affect consistancy,which is where accuracy comes from.





SouthernBoy said:


> I reloaded for 29 years then gave all of my equipment away to a friend... who sold it a few years later when he was laid off. Go figure. I reloaded revolver ammunition, almost all of it either .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum for hunting and other uses. I had a single stage RCBS with all of the peripheral pieces, down to powder trickler, tungsten carbide dyes, loading manuals, and a bunch of other nice little pieces. I even built the table I use for my equipment. I have given some thought in the past couple of months about getting back into loading and if I did, I can assure you that I would go with a progressive machine.
> 
> It would take me about an hour to load 100 rounds and only if I was moving at a good clip with fresh brass. Used brass would keep me to around 50 rounds an hour. Now I was pretty meticulous and would measure sometimes every fifth round just to make sure that my powder measure was still dead on. Enter the trickler and you can see how the number of rounds per hour comes down.
> 
> Reloading can tax you if you are that precise but it doesn't have to be this way. You can kick out some pretty darned good loads with modern equipment and a quality progressive press can approach 500 rounds an hour, but even if you are doing 300 an hour, that is really good for range work. The thing is, you are going to save one heck of a lot of money doing this, to the point of hitting your break even point before you know it. So you may want to give this some real thought and spend the extra several hundred dollars for a good progressive machine. If you don't shoot that much then a single stage will serve your needs. On the other hand, if you hit the range every week or every two weeks and go through 100 rounds each trip, then a progressive machine is the way to go.





Mavrick said:


> I do things pretty much the same way Rex does. I may do it on a larger scale, tho'.
> I shoot Steel Challenge, and did reasonably well with a 45 Auto M1911. I use a Tanfo .40, Limited, now.
> I had about 5k of .45 cases to be loaded for practice and competition. I do the same for the .40, now.
> First I size a couple hundred on my Rockchucker, then, after belling them, I toss them in the vibrator to clean the lube off the cases...3 hours should do. While THAT's goin' on, I size/bell more. The cases are dumped into a coffee can. I start another bunch.
> ...





high pockets said:


> I am one who jumped straight into a progressive machine. Granted it was on a small scale (Dillon Square Deal B) but still a progressive. I have never regretted the decision and in about 15 yrs of reloading I recently had my first squib load. I only reload pistol rounds and I used to shoot IPSC, Bowling Pin, and CAS. My machine is only for pistol calibers, which has never been an issue for me. Like others have mentioned, I only reload on an occasional basis. Usually when I get down to where I have only enough ammunition for 1 or 2 more range trips, I begin the reloading process. I usually load about 500 to 1,000 rounds at a sitting, and only one caliber in a session.
> 
> Ever since I have been re-loading my own ammunition,I have been reading recommendations that beginners start out on a single stage press in order to develop good habits. While I don't really think that is necessary, it is certainly not a bad idea to start out small and simple. If one decides to start with a single stage press, I would ecncourage starting with a press that can be converted into a progressive setup at a later date. Another advantage of a single stage press is that it is easier to experiment with different loads.
> 
> Good luck with your decision, and be safe!





rex said:


> I'm thinking High Pockets just blew that one eh?I'm not ragging you HP,just one more case to illustrate my and Maverick's point.The majority of quibs,KBs I see are from progressives.Normally you're kachunking along and a hitch hits,you clear it and don't think upon restart.Seen many cases of double charges and no charges this way after the story is told.Don't trust a powder check die too,they have failed also-look in those damn cases.
> 
> I almost set up full swing with a 650 but time constraints were keeping me from shooting more,and the wife was getting burned out tagging along to matches or me being gone to out of town shoots.Eventually I had to stop to handle life's hurdles and still haven't been able to get back into it.I miss it alot,but unfortunately I have more important things taking up my time still.Hell,it's hard to practice to get back where I used to be,I'm probably only a mid A class now after all this time.


Wow, there's tons of info here! Thank you to every one of you! You guys pretty much answered all of my next few questions lol.

After taking a step back and looking at the big picture and I've decide to go with a single stage press. The biggest factor being the cheaper initial cost and it'll pay off faster which means less dirty looks and comments from my wife. We have stupidly high prices here (even before the scare) in Hawaii so once I hit 1k or maybe even 500rds of reloads of any round it should pretty much pay off the setup by then.

I'm currently looking at the Lee Classic Cast Single Stage Press and the Lee Challenge Breech Lock Single Stage Press Kit. I'm not sure what the difference is between the two other than the latter being a kit. But tend to like putting my stuff together ala carte style so I'm leaning more towards the classic cast loader then picking up the scale and dies etc separately.

I'll have to pick up some reloading manuals so to get a better understanding of what other components I'll need.

If there's any more important information please do share, I'll be checking back through this thread and making my own notes using some of the info here.

I really appreciate the help guys, thank you all again.


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## prof_fate (Jan 2, 2012)

I jumped in with a lee loadmaster in 9mm - from nothing to loading cost about $350-400.
Not sure if a single stage would be much cheaper, $100 maybe.

You need scales, dies, books, etc both ways.

I've since added a challenger breechlock and hand primer to my tools, bought used off a neighbor with the idea of loading 30-06. I've done some 9mm on it as well.

What seems to take the time isn't decap/resize/prime, that is pretty fast either way. It's powder/bullet/seat/crimp that seems to be time consuming on a single stage.

Have you considered a turret press? Sort of a cross between the two. I was going to get one till the neighbor showed up with a challenger.

Lee just came out with a trimmer/chamfer tool that fits 'any press' they say (any single stage for sure) for $25 so IMO that may make a single stage press priceless for only that use if you shoot rifle. They call it quick trim. https://fsreloading.com/notes-from-greg/lee-precision-new-for-2013.html


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## rexherring (Nov 13, 2012)

I load about 500 rds a month on a Lee turret press I've had for many years. The fact that you can set up your dies and leave them on a turret and just change turrets for different calibers is so much faster than a single stage. The newer 4 hole kits have an auto index that is a nice feature. Some can still be had in e-bay as reloading stuff is getting backordered a lot.


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## prof_fate (Jan 2, 2012)

rexherring said:


> I load about 500 rds a month on a Lee turret press I've had for many years. The fact that you can set up your dies and leave them on a turret and just change turrets for different calibers is so much faster than a single stage. The newer 4 hole kits have an auto index that is a nice feature. Some can still be had in e-bay as reloading stuff is getting backordered a lot.


lee's challenger 'breech lock' press is just as easy. it comes with a 'breech lock bushing' that attaches to the press like a closing a bolt in a rifle. Into it you put your die. Once you've got it adjusted you never have to adjust it again, just like a turret press. Works great!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

People seem to be giving you specific recommendations, so I will too.

I started reloading with a Lyman tong tool (I kid you not), back in the 1950s. It was slow and tedious, but it did the job.
Then I "escalated" to a Lyman turret press. That was still slow, but much more convenient to use. I still recommend it.
Then I got a Dillon progressive press, and I wouldn't give it up for its weight in gold. I use it for both rifle (.30-'06) and pistol (.45 ACP) cartridges.
However, I also have a Lee, cast-metal, single-stage press, exclusively for decapping and full-length resizing of rifle cases, before they're run through the Dillon. I am only moderately pleased with the Lee press. Another make would be better, I think.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Great minds at work here ,,above n below :watching:


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## numbertwo (May 28, 2012)

Okay I changed my mind. After taking a look at the differences between a single stage and turret, I think I'll go with a Hornady lock n load classic. While it's not a turret; the bushings allow a quick die change and keeps the setting.

Any recommendations on a powder loader under $200?


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

The great thing about Lee equipment is that it's cheap and it works. Their presses and dies are fine for the way most folks work, and if you find too many faults with them after a few thousand rounds, just buy a better one...you got your money's worth out of it. Stay away from their bar scale though - it's accurate enough, but will drive you nuts readjusting and checking it all the time. An RCBS 505 is a good scale for about $80.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

numbertwo said:


> ...Any recommendations on a powder loader under $200?


I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I'm still using the Lyman measure that I bought back in the 1950s. (It was originally designed for black powder!) It's for rifle loads.
For pistol loads, I use the Dillon that goes well with my progressive press.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

link: RCBS Little Dandy Handgun Powder Measure

I have been using a single stage press for 40 years. For pistol loads, I have found the RCBS Little Dandy to be perfect for my loading routine. I size, decap, and bell at the loading bench. Then I sit in the den while priming a loading block of cases with a Lee Auto Prime and charge the cases with the Little Dandy. I don't equate volume with results and every stage of the process is QC'ed.


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