# Do you carry your Glock condition 1?



## StainlessSteel215

For those who can legally carry, either open or (preferably) concealed......do you carry your Glock with one in the pipe?

Took me a bit of time to work up the comfort and confidence in myself and my gun to carry this way, since Glocks have no external safety, but after only a few weeks its become second nature to me. Anyone have strong thoughts for or against this? I think if you have a secure holster that completely buries the trigger you have nothing to worry about. I wear the DeSantis IWB holster around 4 o clock that provides a nice deep carry but allows me to get a decent purchase on the gun when I draw at the range.


----------



## niadhf

Glock, M&P, revolver, Makarov, or 1911 (or any else for that matter) all carried loaded and ready.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

If it's not in Condition One, then your self-defense pistol is about as useful as a lightweight rock.

If you are afraid to carry a gun in Condition One, maybe you should re-think this whole self-defense business.
I understand that Israeli Krav-Maga is the coming thing in unarmed self-defense.
But I wouldn't know: I carry a loaded, ready-to-use pistol. (I'm too old for all that physical exertion.)


----------



## StainlessSteel215

Yepp, once I spoke with a few fellow enthusiasts recently and realized how detrimental an unloaded pistol situation could be....from any number of potential situations....I realized that carrying C1 was the best option all things considered. I carried Israeli style for the last 2 years or so and always re-assured myself that taking a second to rack the slide in a situation was no big deal....until I watched my first Tueller drill demonstration. I wouldnt stand a chance...very few on this planet would. Lesson learned...thats why I love these gun communities!


----------



## ponzer04

+1 steve - the too old bit.


----------



## ponzer04

Or you could use this.










EFA-2 belt holster

A 'quick-response' EFA-2 belt holster made from hardened polymer with steel insertions. Its simple, but ingenious design allows the pistol to be taken out either through the top or, if pushed down hard, through the bottom. This single action switches the safety guard off (1), cocks the trigger (2) and chambers the cartridge (3)...The EFA-2K version is shorter and comes with EKP-01 belt clip, which allows to change the angular position of the holster (see manuals). EFA-2 can accommodate a standard 9mm Makarov (PM); IZH-71; IZH79-9T pistols and MP-654K co2 air pistol. Print-out User's Manuals in PDF format

Russian belts Makarov belt shoulder holsters


----------



## Gunners_Mate

condition 1, always. everything else is self defeating


----------



## SouthernBoy

All of my carry guns are carried in full battery. And none of them have any external safeties. Just another impediment to doing what needs to be done if and when called upon. My opinion, of course... your mileage may vary.


----------



## SMann

ponzer04 said:


> Or you could use this.


I hope you're joking. That is a ridiculous gimmick. Chamber a round then holster the weapon. In a proper holster, not some foolish gadget.


----------



## LePetomane

Absolutely. It's no good otherwise.


----------



## swany66675

1 in the chamber otherwise I'm just transporting a weight.


----------



## Bisley

When I lose confidence in my ability to safely carry a loaded gun, I'll just wear overalls and open-carry a claw hammer in the hammer loop.


----------



## Charlie

Carrying the Glock with one in the chamber is no different that carrying a double action revolver with a loaded cylinder. Carry it loaded and ............... be ready.


----------



## ponzer04

SMann said:


> I hope you're joking. That is a ridiculous gimmick. Chamber a round then holster the weapon. In a proper holster, not some foolish gadget.


I was only half joking with this one. I first heard of it on an episode of "Deadliest Warrior" season 1 episode 6 Green Beret vs. Spetznaz the pistol holster combo is talked about 30 minutes into the episode. Deadliest Warrior is on netflix instant and originally played on Spike's


----------



## ponzer04

SMann said:


> I hope you're joking. That is a ridiculous gimmick. Chamber a round then holster the weapon. In a proper holster, not some foolish gadget.


I was only half joking with this one. I first heard of it on an episode of "Deadliest Warrior" season 1 episode 6 Green Beret vs. Spetznaz the pistol holster combo is talked about 30 minutes into the episode. Deadliest Warrior is on netflix instant and originally played on Spike's


----------



## grey-wolf

If your not gonna carry in condition 1 why bother carry at all. Some people say i can rack it if i need it......wrong answer. If they (the non 1ers) ever find thereselves in that situation they will be sorry. If you ever have to draw (and we all hope we dont) you will see how your gross motor skills tend to take over.


----------



## pic

Should you keep your hand gun chambered in condition one or zero in the house when the gun is off your person?
Maybe you should maybe you shouldn't.You might have kids running around. Why even have a gun in the house if it's not chambered,Why, because you still have access to the gun if needed.
Why carry a gun unchambered i don't know but you still have access when needed in a hundred different situations. also my opinion ,an aggresive perp will take your gun from some who have the right to carry ,when he does take your gun it will be in position 0 or 1 ,now that's scary 
And you can't practice that at the gun range. Don't forget every situational encounter or threat is different. no two are ever alike.like snowflakes,lol.
avoidance, running away, retreating, giving up your wallet are all options.


----------



## Bisley

pic said:


> Should you keep your hand gun chambered in condition one or zero in the house when the gun is off your person?
> Maybe you should maybe you shouldn't.You might have kids running around. Why even have a gun in the house if it's not chambered,Why, because you still have access to the gun if needed.
> Why carry a gun unchambered i don't know but you still have access when needed in a hundred different situations. also my opinion ,an aggresive perp will take your gun from some who have the right to carry ,when he does take your gun it will be in position 0 or 1 ,now that's scary
> And you can't practice that at the gun range. Don't forget every situational encounter or threat is different. no two are ever alike.like snowflakes,lol.
> avoidance, running away, retreating, giving up your wallet are all options.


That wasn't the question everyone was answering...with their opinions.

If you choose to have the option to protect yourself with a gun, you also have to choose to what level of threat you are willing to protect yourself against. The more prepared you want to be for the wide variety of different scenarios that you might find yourself in, the more serious you have to be about making sure you can get a loaded gun into play.

If you have kids _and_ have a high level of threat, you may need to keep your gun on your body. If you trust your door locks and security measures, you have numerous, less intrusive options.


----------



## jakeleinen1

Wow,

Well, I actually disagree with most of the people in here. How I carry depends greatly on where I am at. I prefer to carry a glock WITHOUT one in the chamber

Say what you will about that, but 99.9% of the time the gun is staying holstered. The .1% of the time where it comes out I still have to decide whether to take someone's life or not. I'll use that extra millisecond of contemplation to rack the slide (with proper draw/rack training). 

You know if your riding around in the hood or something, you can chamber a round and then carry it. I do this kinda stuff all the time. But if your walking EVERYWHERE with a round in the chamber, kinda paranoid to me. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## niadhf

Jake, I do not think that prepared = paranoid. That said, I have a serious question for you.
Have you practiced drawing and racking the slide before someone can cover 21 feet? 30 feet? 45 feet? Can you do it before the reach you each time?
How about from 10 feet with a knife out?
I, when presented this challenge, was unable to draw and wrack the slide. When I KNOW I have to (competition) draw an shoot, I can do so from IWB and concealment in under 2 seconds. I can cover 30 feet on the same time. 

Just some food for thought.


----------



## jakeleinen1

Listen, Im not trying to change anyones minds here, the fact that you guys carry makes me happy enough.

Fact is though
Accidental discharge is IMPOSSIBLE without a round in the chamber. Whether your carrying the most secure holster in the world or you've got 3 different safeties, if that round is in the pipe the gun can go off still due to various reasons. If your carrying in a place where people are around, that can be more dangerous then not having one in the hole when someone tries to mug you. If your in a area where you feel the need to put one in then do it for awhile. Or even if your driving, thats fine (avoid car jacking). But everywhere? No, thats putting people around me at risk.

If an encounter where someone for some reason threatens to kill me before I can round a chamber and decide if I have to kill a human being today, then I did something really wrong...

A guy I know was in a grocery store and the place was getting robbed. The robbers didn't know one of the stock guys had a gun. He chambered a round safely without them seeing and shot one while the other ran for the exit. My buddy said that it made him nervous seeing the guy not have a round already chambered, but everything worked out. I think the case where that didn't work out is rare.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

pic said:


> Should you keep your hand gun chambered in condition one or zero in the house when the gun is off your person?


Short answer: No.



pic said:


> ...You might have kids running around...


It's your responsibility to keep any gun out of the hands of unsupervised children, regardless of its condition. Period.
It's also your responsibility to teach your children gun safety, and to make them gun-safe.
That includes the Eddie Eagle "stop; don't touch; get an adult" mantra, but, in my mind, it also includes: "No, we don't 'play' guns. Guns aren't toys. But if you want to learn how to shoot, I'll teach you. We'll start with the safety rules, and when you've learned them really well, we'll try handling some guns for practice. Then you can learn to shoot."


----------



## Steve M1911A1

jakeleinen1 said:


> ...Accidental discharge is IMPOSSIBLE without a round in the chamber...


_Intentional_ discharge is also impossible without a round in the chamber.
I sincerely hope that you will always be able to predict when you will need to be prepared to discharge your gun intentionally.
I, on the other hand, am not as good as you are, at reading the minds of other people. That's why I carry a pistol that's always ready for immediate use.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jakeleinen1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> Well, I actually disagree with most of the people in here. How I carry depends greatly on where I am at. I prefer to carry a glock WITHOUT one in the chamber
> 
> Say what you will about that, but 99.9% of the time the gun is staying holstered. The .1% of the time where it comes out I still have to decide whether to take someone's life or not. I'll use that extra millisecond of contemplation to rack the slide (with proper draw/rack training).
> 
> You know if your riding around in the hood or something, you can chamber a round and then carry it. I do this kinda stuff all the time. *But if your walking EVERYWHERE with a round in the chamber, kinda paranoid to me*.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Really? Guess we have a whole lot of paranoid LEO's moving about in our nation's states. Don't imagine too many of them carry without one in the pipe. But then again, it IS your decision to take and only you will know if you took the right one if you ever have to use your sidearm.


----------



## SouthernBoy

niadhf said:


> Jake, I do not think that prepared = paranoid. That said, I have a serious question for you.
> Have you practiced drawing and racking the slide before someone can cover 21 feet? 30 feet? 45 feet? Can you do it before the reach you each time?
> How about from 10 feet with a knife out?
> I, when presented this challenge, was unable to draw and wrack the slide. When I KNOW I have to (competition) draw an shoot, I can do so from IWB and concealment in under 2 seconds. I can cover 30 feet on the same time.
> 
> Just some food for thought.


Having to rack the slide to chamber a round under extreme conditions introduces a whole lot of variables into the equation. The possibility of one's hand slipping. What if the perp got off a shot and hit the victim's support hand? In the rush of the moment, you might have a failure to feed for a number of reasons. The extra manipulation of the gun opens the possibility of hitting the magazine release, not to mention having to punch out, acquire your target, and fire. I can think of a lot of other problems with this, but suffice it to say that the less you have to do between drawing the gun and firing it, the better your chances are of surviving an extreme encounter.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> _Intentional_ discharge is also impossible without a round in the chamber.
> I sincerely hope that you will always be able to predict when you will need to be prepared to discharge your gun intentionally.
> I, on the other hand, am not as good as you are, at reading the minds of other people. That's why I carry a pistol that's always ready for immediate use.


Amen to this.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Gentlemen, if I may divert slightly for a moment...

I have been party to this same topic on other gun websites and frankly, have seen them escalate into emotional tirades by a few individuals who for whatever reason, could not accept the opinions and decisions of other site members. However this thread, and this group of submitters, have been civil and respectful and above reproach. I find this refreshing.


----------



## StainlessSteel215

Lots of feedback here, I dont think anyone can possibly be RIGHT or WRONG...depends on your comfort level, skill level, and situation. I personally carried for the last 2-3 years with an empty chamber...out of fear. I now carry with one in the pipe because I think its generally smart practice for ME to be more confident ion myself and my gun. I may not carry C1 all the time 24/7 but I think it was a smart move to overcome my fears and realize that I have complete control while the gun is holstered now.


----------



## jakeleinen1

SouthernBoy said:


> Really? Guess we have a whole lot of paranoid LEO's moving about in our nation's states. Don't imagine too many of them carry without one in the pipe. But then again, it IS your decision to take and only you will know if you took the right one if you ever have to use your sidearm.


To me LEOs are different, they should be vigilant because they have a big target on their back, cause you know their COPS.

But your point about stress when racking the slide is valid... Hence why training is necessary and not to just expect that you will be able to. If you practice your draw you can eliminate this problem


----------



## niadhf

jakeleinen1 said:


> Listen, Im not trying to change anyones minds here, the fact that you guys carry makes me happy enough.
> .


I wasn't trying to change your mind. Just giving you some more food for thought.


----------



## rex

SMan,I have to appologize for the icon screwup and the attitude,your post hit me as a bit different and I was trying to unwind from a day from hell,so sorry again.

I can see your point of view from the military aspect,but I've only been in the LE and civie scene so I really don't think military.Don't hold it against me too much,ok?


----------



## SouthernBoy

jakeleinen1 said:


> To me LEOs are different, they should be vigilant because they have a big target on their back, cause you know their COPS.
> 
> But your point about stress when racking the slide is valid... Hence why training is necessary and not to just expect that you will be able to. If you practice your draw you can eliminate this problem


It is a personal decision and I only hope for the best for the folks on this site. We talk about topics such as this not only to air our comments and opinions, but to get other takes on the issues at hand. Sometimes it's easy to overlook something which may ultimately force you to rethink how you go about armed. It's all good and I'm quite sure most of us hope we can help members as much as we can.


----------



## VAMarine

I don't always carry a Glock, but when I do, it's properly loaded.


----------



## ponzer04

SMann said:


> I hope you're joking. That is a ridiculous gimmick. Chamber a round then holster the weapon. In a proper holster, not some foolish gadget.












I feel like my suggestion and comment got shoved to that back so I'm just bumping it back in.

I was only half joking with this one. I first heard of it on an episode of "Deadliest Warrior" season 1 episode 6 Green Beret vs. Spetznaz the pistol holster combo is talked about 30 minutes into the episode. Deadliest Warrior is on netflix instant and originally played on Spike's


----------



## Bisley

jakeleinen1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> Well, I actually disagree with most of the people in here. How I carry depends greatly on where I am at. I prefer to carry a glock WITHOUT one in the chamber
> 
> Say what you will about that, but 99.9% of the time the gun is staying holstered. The .1% of the time where it comes out I still have to decide whether to take someone's life or not. I'll use that extra millisecond of contemplation to rack the slide (with proper draw/rack training).
> 
> You know if your riding around in the hood or something, you can chamber a round and then carry it. I do this kinda stuff all the time. But if your walking EVERYWHERE with a round in the chamber, kinda paranoid to me.
> 
> Just my opinion.


I think your decision on this subject is predicated on the idea that you will be able to think everything through at the moment of truth. I doubt that will happen.

And the idea that you can sometimes carry with one in the chamber and sometimes not is also unrealistic. When you are caught by surprise and fighting back panic, are you sure you will know whether your weapon is ready?


----------



## jdeere9750

jakeleinen1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> Well, I actually disagree with most of the people in here. How I carry depends greatly on where I am at. I prefer to carry a glock WITHOUT one in the chamber
> 
> Say what you will about that, but 99.9% of the time the gun is staying holstered. The .1% of the time where it comes out I still have to decide whether to take someone's life or not. I'll use that extra millisecond of contemplation to rack the slide (with proper draw/rack training).
> 
> You know if your riding around in the hood or something, you can chamber a round and then carry it. I do this kinda stuff all the time. But if your walking EVERYWHERE with a round in the chamber, kinda paranoid to me.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Like the others, I respectfully disagree with you on two counts. For reasons already stated, I carry with one in the chamber (along with the fact that it adds one extra round capacity to your gun, which may/may not matter to you.)

The other concern I have is with your suggestion to carry unloaded most of the time and to load the chamber if you find yourself in an "iffy" situation. If you practice to draw/load chamber/fire, you must change your draw stroke (fighting your practice and muscle memory) in that "iffy" situation, when you are pressed for time and are under stress. In my opinion, it would be best to carry the same (whichever method you choose) under every circumstance. That way you can practice and hopefully it will become second nature when you draw under stress.

YMMV.


----------



## rex

These last 2 posts should cause a pause for you.Do you Concealed carry?At home is one thing,concealed is a whole new ballgame.A seemingly emaningless pandering at a gas pump,storefront,etc has screwed quite a few people.As stated earlier,try the Teulla (sp?) drill.AT 21ft/7yds you better be damn good and practiced to clear leather and get off a shot,and he's on you when you do-you are stabbed/gutted.Don't think a 250lb+ person is easily handled,their leg muscles are quite strong and they can cover that distance in mind blowing speed,they just can't last much beyond that.

I have a simple thought on this.At home if the hammer is down the chamber's empty and I can Israeli it,otherwise it's ready to rock.Another reason I don't like striker guns,I'm not looking for some retart loaded chamber indicator the deusche lawyers made happen.If you need one of those to know the gun is loaded,you need a wife to tell you to wipe your ass.Sorry,but it's a no-brainer.


----------



## SMann

I suggest that not feeling comfortable carrying a gun with one in the chamber is a sign that the person either doesn't trust their weapon or doesn't trust themself. Neither scenario is acceptable and changing the weapon you carry to one with safety features that make you feel better, becoming proficient with and trusting the weapon you have, or becoming personally proficient with weapons in general and learning to trust yourself are proper solutions. Carrying a firearm that is not ready to use is in my opinion a poor solution to fear of your weapon or yourself.


----------



## berettabone

I would suggest, that carrying your firearm without one in the chamber is foolish........If carrying a Glock with one in the chamber bothers you, I would suggest that you either not carry, or get a different firearm. It takes enough time to draw your firearm, much less, having to rack one into the hole, before using.


----------



## Russ

I recently watched a YouTube surveillance video of a store owner attempt to rack his gun during an armed hold up and he was so nervous he could not rack the slide and he was shot dead while trying to rack. Don't be a fool pack Hot in a good holster or leave the weapon home. 

Racking will kill you. No bad guy will give you the time to rack.

Russ


----------



## pic

exactly right,, i carry all my guns with one in the chamber except my GLOCK. trigger safety + single action mode very uncomfortable. but that's just me


SMann said:


> I suggest that not feeling comfortable carrying a gun with one in the chamber is a sign that the person either doesn't trust their weapon or doesn't trust themself. Neither scenario is acceptable and changing the weapon you carry to one with safety features that make you feel better, becoming proficient with and trusting the weapon you have, or becoming personally proficient with weapons in general and learning to trust yourself are proper solutions. Carrying a firearm that is not ready to use is in my opinion a poor solution to fear of your weapon or yourself.


----------



## SMann

Glocks have 3 safeties. Pulling the trigger is the only way to bypass all 3. I guess some of you don't trust yourself to not pull the trigger unless you intend to. If I felt that way I wouldn't carry anything that goes boom.


----------



## Charlie

I've tried to keep up with this thread but I may have missed reference to this MANUAL SAFETY KIT FOR GLOCK®, Cominolli Custom May be the answer to those who don't like to carry one in the chamber. :smt102


----------



## SMann

Charlie said:


> I've tried to keep up with this thread but I may have missed reference to this MANUAL SAFETY KIT FOR GLOCK®, Cominolli Custom May be the answer to those who don't like to carry one in the chamber. :smt102


Might work for some, however the lack of a manual safety, simplicity of design and low number of parts are a few reasons why I carry a Glock. If I wanted a manual safety and more parts I would've bought something else. I'm not criticizing you for mentioning that product, just giving my opinion on it.


----------



## Charlie

I wouldn't put on on one of my Glocks, as you say, that's the reason I like them (Glocks). I had a friend that put one on a G23 and he liked it, it was unobtrusive, and worked well. but, to me it kinda' defeats the purpose of the Glock type of trigger.


----------



## pic

the glock is safety designed not to go off if dropped, very nice ,other then that if you pull the trigger it goes bang.
an object of any kind could come in contact with the trigger and bang.I do not understand the idea of a trigger safety.
keep your finger and everything else off the trigger until you decide to shoot.. well keeping my finger off the trigger is the easy part, it's everything else i worry about


----------



## rex

Somebody else gets it.


----------



## tacman605

Whether you choose to carry a round in the chamber or not should makes no difference to me it's your life not mine.

If you are uncomfortable with your skill level or your firearm you should train more until you are comfortable but that is all up to you. The idea that you carry a round in the chamber sometimes and other times you don't when in a good neighborhood or whatever makes no sense. You will not dictate the circumstances of a SD encounter the other guy will you will simply be responding to his actions.

When the time comes that you need your firearm you want to have the least amount of motions possible in order to use it. You need to practice consistent techniques so under stress you will be able to accomplish what you need to do.
Yes with enough time and distance you may have enough time to draw, chamber, acquire and fire but what is that distance? You cannot draw your weapon on someone at 15 yards just to be ready for what they might do. It has been proven over and over again within 7 yards it is not happening. In extreme close quarters/contact distance you will not be able to draw and chamber while defending yourself and your firearm.

At distances within six feet which is known as "Inside the hole" an attacker does not have to be a super ninja, certified in anything or even be armed. You will have at the most two seconds before he is in contact distance with his hands on you. He does not even have to be attempting to hurt you at this point all he has to do is interupt you thought process, known as the OODA loop OODA loop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and from that point he can do what he wants. The OODA loop is used in virtually every decision we make from picking up a fork off the table to putting the turn signal on in your car. In a SD situation it will determine your reaction time to a given situation.

Guns do not magically go off, become possessed, jump out of the holster and shoot someone. Guns go off because someone or something pulls the trigger. There are redundant safeties, internal or external, on a Glock or other weapons for that matter that prevent this. Unless there is something mechanically wrong with the gun it won't fire unless the trigger is pulled.

If you feel uncomfortable carrying a round in the chamber try this. Load and chamber your pistol. Put it in the holster. Put the holster and gun on as a unit. Then leave it alone until you need it. You will find the gun just sits there. It does not attempt to leave the holster or do things on it's own nor does it decide to go off by accident. At the end of the day remove the holster and gun as a unit, clear it or not whatever you choose, and go on about your business.


----------



## wjh2657

Charlie said:


> Carrying the Glock with one in the chamber is no different that carrying a double action revolver with a loaded cylinder. Carry it loaded and ............... be ready.


I carry revolvers (J-Frame S&W) or a Glock 23. I installed the NY#1 trigger kit so the pull is the same as my revolvers. The shooting will be under 15 Yards or I won't be shooting, I'll be hiding! Long, heavy trigger pull and keep finger off trigger is all the safeties I need.


----------



## VAMarine

*45 *posts deleted. Enough of the Romper Room bullshit. :smtmoe


----------



## paratrooper

If I carry a gun on my person, I don't care where I'm at, the gun will be loaded and ready to fire.

To carry a gun and *NOT* have it loaded and ready to fire (I hate saying condition 1) is crazy.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Can't one go off while, one in the pipe? If you sit wrong? 

Seems pretty nutty but too each their own. Do cops have one in the pipe at all times?


----------



## kerrycork

If one does not carry with one in the pipe he puts his opponent one up on himself.


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> Can't one go off while, one in the pipe? If you sit wrong?
> 
> Seems pretty nutty but too each their own. Do cops have one in the pipe at all times?


Regarding the first question, a properly functioning firearm of modern design does not go off unless the trigger is pulled, if the trigger guard is properly covered and proper handling is performed there is nothing to worry about.

Yes, Cops have one in the chamber at all times while on duty.


----------



## jakeleinen1

It's crazy to me to think that a bad guy threatening your life is more probable than of your gun malfunctioning (even if I specified malfunction to just accidental discharge). Seems one is about three to four times more likely than the other. Have any of you had to draw your handgun?


----------



## Charlie

jakeleinen1 said:


> It's crazy to me to think that a bad guy threatening your life is more probable than of your gun malfunctioning (even if I specified malfunction to just accidental discharge). Seems one is about three to four times more likely than the other. Have any of you had to draw your handgun?


Must respectfully wholeheartly disagree. Have never even gotten close to drawing my handgun in 15 years of concealed carry but if I had to I would want to be able to pull the trigger imediately without doing something else (like racking the slide).


----------



## Steve M1911A1

jakeleinen1 said:


> ...Have any of you had to draw your handgun?


Yes, twice. But in neither case did I have to fire it.

However, I've been carrying a concealed weapon for (probably) longer than you've been alive. Mostly I've carried a single-action 1911-loaded, cocked, and locked of course.
For the past (approximately) 12 years, I've been carrying a DAO pocket-size .45 ACP, also fully loaded and ready to go.
Now I carry a Colt's Pocket Hammerless in .380 ACP, also loaded, cocked, and locked.

I have never-repeat, never-experienced an unintended discharge while I was carrying any pistol.

(I did cause negligent discharges twice: Once when I was a stupid child and acted stupidly, and once after a match, when I put a round into the ground while unloading my pistol improperly.)


----------



## Charlie

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yes, twice. But in neither case did I have to fire it.
> 
> However, I've been carrying a concealed weapon for (probably) longer than you've been alive. Mostly I've carried a single-action 1911-loaded, cocked, and locked of course.
> For the past (approximately) 12 years, I've been carrying a DAO pocket-size .45 ACP, also fully loaded and ready to go.
> Now I carry a Colt's Pocket Hammerless in .380 ACP, also loaded, cocked, and locked.
> 
> I have never-repeat, never-experienced an unintended discharge while I was carrying any pistol.
> 
> (I did cause negligent discharges twice: Once when I was a stupid child and acted stupidly, and once after a match, when I put a round into the ground while unloading my pistol improperly.)


Steve, clear your messages. You are full! And I've got one incoming.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jakeleinen1 said:


> It's crazy to me to think that a bad guy threatening your life is more probable than of your gun malfunctioning (even if I specified malfunction to just accidental discharge). Seems one is about three to four times more likely than the other. Have any of you had to draw your handgun?


A pistol or revolver residing in a proper holster, designed to protect the trigger guard and which is not pliable to the point of encountering the trigger, has a very small chance of discharging the weapon inadvertently. Can't say zero percent, but probably less than the chance of getting attacked by a miscreant. Of course you are entitled to carry as you see fit, but do consider these very real scenarios.

What are you going to do if your support hand and/or arm has been severely compromised (shot, stabbed, badly broken up with a bat or large piece of wood)? It is virtually impossible to train for this. Can you be certain that you will be able to work the slide of your sidearm, acquire your target, and deliver rounds accordingly should you need to do this?

I would reiterate that the fewest impediments between drawing that gun and using it, the better your chance will be of surviving an extreme encounter. Working a slide to get your gun into full battery is a very serious impediment. In the 17 1/2 years I have been carrying on a regular basis, I have never had any problems whatsoever with unintended discharges. And this also goes for the entire close to 45 years I have used handguns. Proper equipment, proper handling techniques, proper attitude, and a healthy dose of common sense all go a very long way to keep you in one piece and your firearms safe and secure.

I wish you well, but I strongly suggest that you giver very serious consideration to your stance on this issue if you're going to carry a sidearm for your protection.


----------



## Charlie

jakeleinen1 said:


> It's crazy to me to think that a bad guy threatening your life is more probable than of your gun malfunctioning (even if I specified malfunction to just accidental discharge). Seems one is about three to four times more likely than the other. Have any of you had to draw your handgun?


After re-reading your post, it seems you are suggesting people legally carrying guns (police, ccw license holders, hunters, etc.) are three times more dangerous to themselves (and others) than are the thugs (with intent to be dangerous)? Is that what you're saying?


----------



## TheLAGuy

Its not that hard to put one in the chamber.


----------



## wjh2657

TheLAGuy said:


> Its not that hard to put one in the chamber.


If the BG comes around the car at 15 to 25 feet or less, you simply do not have the time to jack the slide. Most of us are far more likely to face such a scenario than to be engaged in a running gunfight at 15 to 25 yards. One in the pipe or stop carrying and start depending on that crucifix Granny gave you at confirmation!


----------



## CPT.ZERO

Hi from Italy.

Rule 1: NEVER CARRY A LOADED GUN OUT OF ITS DEDICATED HOLSTER... THAT'S THE ONLY ONE SAFETY SECRET


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> Its not that hard to put one in the chamber.


Under nicer calm having a fun at the range setting, sure. Try and do it when someone is one top of you beating you senseless or after taking any kind of good blow to your support side, ball bat, crowbar etc.

I have had several students come in carrying empty chamber and after running several drills they soon understand that they will get faster, more accurate fire carrying with one in the chamber. With added stress I have seen more than a few flub getting the gun loaded. Typically, when they do get they gun loaded the first shot is very wide, sometimes completely off target.

Hoping for the best in what is all ready the worst case scenario (having all ready had to draw in of it self is winning the bad luck lottery) is not realisitic thinking or preperation.

In a force on force environment, an individual without a round chambered will likely "die" every time.

Responding to a lethal threat, (not just some loud mouth drunkard) needs to be an immediate action, you are all ready responding to your attacker's initiative and are starting from a disadvantaged position. Reaction can beat action with proper training (luck never hurts either) but handicapping yourself from the get go with adding a very crucial step is not going to do you any favors where the fight continuim is concerned.

Regarding negligent discharges:
1: Select a modern, proven design, stay away from "brand new designs" most of Ruger's new entries come to mind given thief high rate or recall for safety issues.
2: Select a quality holster designed for the gun that can be removed from your person without having to take off your belt, I prefer snap loops.
3: Load the gun, holseter the gun and leave it the heck alone unless you NEED it to shoot something.
4: Should the gun need to be removed, take off holstered gun so that the trigger stays covered.
5: Fight complacency with solid, safe handling and instill good "memory" habits.

If these things are adhered to, there is very little risk of an ND.

Most "civilian" NDs off the range occur due to poor gear selection, lack of a holster, people messing with their guns when they shouldn't be ie while in the bathroom or a mixture of all of the above.

...to be continued.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Thanks for the advice, I'm a novice. So I need to practice!


----------



## Packard

Charlie said:


> Carrying the Glock with one in the chamber is no different that carrying a double action revolver with a loaded cylinder. Carry it loaded and ............... be ready.


I don't quite agree. I carry two Glocks at all times (G23, right hip; G27 left ankle).

I agree that the method of firing a revolver and a Glock are nearly alike. But my revolvers have a trigger pull of 10 to 15 pounds, and the Glock has a trigger pull of about 5 pounds. So revolvers are, in my opinion, less likely to be accidentally discharged.

When I started shooting there were autos (with safeties) and revolvers with heavy trigger pulls. There was no caveat back then about keeping your finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot.

But with the light trigger pulls of striker fired guns that rule came in to being. I think it is a good rule regardless.

But if you treat Glocks like you treat a typical revolver I think it is going to elevate the risk.


----------



## TheLAGuy

is there a reason you carry two guns? one isnt enough?


----------



## swany66675

If it makes you happy, and I'm sure in some situations it would be quicker then a mag change. Plus in a true shtf scenerio it might give him something to hand to someone else (strength in numbers).


----------



## Packard

TheLAGuy said:


> is there a reason you carry two guns? one isnt enough?


It is more important when I pocket carry my 340 J frame, but when seated access is better from the ankle, and when standing access is better from the belt. The ankle rig is especially good when seated in the car. Did you ever try drawing your weapon with your seatbelt on? Also I don't carry any extra ammo. The G27 is as easy to carry as a spare magazine.

If you pocket carry, I think it is negligence not to ankle carry too.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Where do you live? I can understand if you want to carry CCW and live in the south or something, but I dont think its necessary to have two guns holstered to you, unless your a wanted man by "someone". possibly some mafia type, right?


----------



## Packard

TheLAGuy said:


> is there a reason you carry two guns? one isnt enough?


Try drawing your weapon while belted in your car and then get back to me.


----------



## TheLAGuy

In California its very difficult to have a CCW. Basically what I'm saying is that I'm not even allowed to have a loaded gun in my car, let alone two that are ready to rock strapped to me. I guess NY rules are a lil different.


----------



## Teuthis

If condition 1 carry is an issue for someone, I suggest a pistol with a safety; or a revolver. Additionally, I also think it is not an issue to carry without a round in the chamber. There were, and still are organizations that do not allow condition one. I remember the SP's and MP's practicing the draw and charge drills and they were quite skilled. The key to self defense is awareness, more than being a quick draw artist. If a civilian allows himself or herself to get into a situation where an instant draw and shoot means life or death, then their life if likely forfeit anyway. What you really want to do is be able to turn around and leave the area, or get to cover; not get into a gunfight. It seems that a lot of people with no experience in close range firefights have some very romantic ideas of what would happen in a shootout. The condition 1 that I want to be in is my own alertness as to what is happening around me when I am out in public places.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> Where do you live? I can understand if you want to carry CCW and live in the south or something, but I dont think its necessary to have two guns holstered to you, unless your a wanted man by "someone". possibly some mafia type, right?


Yeah. Well, I guess you've never been to Poughkeepsie.

Man, that's dangerous country around there. For one thing, it's halfway between New York City, where the Mafia rule, and Albany, where just about everybody is a crook.
And then there are the cows! Have you ever been charged by a cow that really, really needed milking? It happens in Poughkeepsie all of the time. (Well, it did when I was a kid, anyway.)

People carry two guns because, as Clint Smith's saying goes, "One is none, and two is one." That is, if you're in a life-and-death situation, and your gun fails, what do you do?
The quickest, simplest thing to do is to reach for the second gun. You don't have the time to repair the problem.
(Factual Disclosure: I do not carry two guns. Instead, I keep a well-armed wife handy.)


----------



## CPT.ZERO

In a defence situation, having a non-chambered gun is sensless.
1: you DO NOT DECIDE to use the gun, you ARE FORCED TO DO IT QUICKLY (and time is essential);
2: if the aggressor is near enough to reach the phisical contact, unprobably you will have the opportunity to use both the hands to grab and cook tha gun. Than, your half/reaction induces a bigget attack determination, with all the conseguences you can imagine.

RULE NR. 1: ALWAYS CARRY A GUN IN ITS PROPER HOLSTER, and there will be no problems from tha chambered round .....


----------



## CPT.ZERO

TheLAGuy said:


> Its not that hard to put one in the chamber.


...could you be able to rack with one hand, while the other is employed to keep away an aggressor?:numbchuck:


----------



## TheLAGuy

CPT.ZERO said:


> ...could you be able to rack with one hand, while the other is employed to keep away an aggressor?:numbchuck:


So your sayinig you just unholster and pull the trigger, your probably right.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Packard said:


> Try drawing your weapon while belted in your car and then get back to me.


I can draw mine pretty quickly when belted in my car or truck. I make sure the shoulder belt is behind the grip frame of the gun, which is carried open, and that affords me the ability to get my gun out in a hurry should the need arise.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Teuthis said:


> If condition 1 carry is an issue for someone, I suggest a pistol with a safety; or a revolver. Additionally, I also think it is not an issue to carry without a round in the chamber. There were, and still are organizations that do not allow condition one. I remember the SP's and MP's practicing the draw and charge drills and they were quite skilled. The key to self defense is awareness, more than being a quick draw artist. If a civilian allows himself or herself to get into a situation where an instant draw and shoot means life or death, then their life if likely forfeit anyway. What you really want to do is be able to turn around and leave the area, or get to cover; not get into a gunfight. It seems that a lot of people with no experience in close range firefights have some very romantic ideas of what would happen in a shootout. The condition 1 that I want to be in is my own alertness as to what is happening around me when I am out in public places.


All of what you say is true with one exception. You are not going to be the one to dictate where and when an attack is to take place. You comments about heightened awareness and seeking cover are spot on. But I'm sure we all know that one cannot predict a sudden violent attack. We can look for the profiles, but Murphy's Law is at work in these matters pretty much all the time.


----------



## Packard

SouthernBoy said:


> I can draw mine pretty quickly when belted in my car or truck. I make sure the shoulder belt is behind the grip frame of the gun, which is carried open, and that affords me the ability to get my gun out in a hurry should the need arise.


New York is a concealed only state. Seated access is problematic. The way I see it I am not toting two guns, but rather I have access to one gun in each of two standing/seated positions.

I still say if you pocket carry you are being negligent if you don't also carry on the ankle.


----------



## SMann

A shoulder rig is a good solution for those whe spend a lot of time in a vehicle. One gun, one holster, easy acess from any position.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Packard said:


> *New York is a concealed only state. Seated access is problematic.* The way I see it I am not toting two guns, but rather I have access to one gun in each of two standing/seated positions.
> 
> I still say if you pocket carry you are being negligent if you don't also carry on the ankle.


That does make a difference. The normal (default, standard) mode of carry in Virginia is open. No permit is required for this mode of carry whereas to conceal, one must obtain a CHP (Concealed Handgun Permit).


----------



## TheLAGuy

What happens if you get caught with a concealed weapon in CA?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> What happens if you get caught with a concealed weapon in CA?


Ask a California-licensed attorney.
Failing that, search California State's own law website. Look at the California Penal Code, perhaps starting at Section #12020.

Years ago, when I lived in California, illegal concealed carry was a "wobbler." That is, it was the prosecutor's option to charge the gun carrier with either a misdemeanor or a felony. At that time, a non-predatory first offense was normally charged as a misdemeanor, while obviously-predatory carry and subsequent offenses were charged as felonies.
However, I am certain that all of that has changed. New laws have been written, to go along with new attitudes toward guns.
Therefore, I strongly suggest that you need to do some serious research.

Every public library in California stocks a book called _California Standard Codes_.
In this book, in easy-to-understand format, and with a very good index by topic, you will find all of the applicable laws.
As stated above, look at the "weapon, concealed" topic of the California Penal Code, probably starting at Section #12020.

Another source of information is your own county's law library, to which you are entitled free access. (In L.A., it's downtown, near the County Courts building.)
The librarian will help you find the appropriate statutes and related case law.

You might also be able to "sneak into" the UCLA Law Library, as I used to do. Just try to look as if you belong there.

But nothing-absolutely nothing-beats asking an attorney. It's worth whatever it costs.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Or just abide by the rules and not carry a concealed weapon!

Thanks for the response..


----------



## niadhf

Packard said:


> New York is a concealed only state.


Can you cite this law please.


----------



## Packard

niadhf said:


> Can you cite this law please.


If you are in a police or guard uniform you can carry open. Otherwise it must be concealed or you can be cited for disturbing the peace (and almost certainly lose your CCW permit).

Some jurisdictions are stricter than others.


----------



## TheLAGuy

But what ever happened to the right to bear arms, bill of rights, passage #2?


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> But what ever happened to the right to bear arms, bill of rights, passage #2?


Ask the California legislature.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> But what ever happened to the right to bear arms, bill of rights, passage #2?


California's state constitution is among the very few in the western US in which there is no mention of the right to keep and bear arms.

This may have its historic origin in the land-ownership conflict between the resident Mexican families and the incoming Anglos, back in the middle 1800s. It may also be the result of what was a slave-owning independent nation coming into the Union as a free state, and the conflicts arising out of that. It may also stem from the preponderance of southern sympathizers, living in a state that (just barely) remained in the Union during the Civil War.


----------



## denner

:smt082


VAMarine said:


> Ask the California legislature.


----------



## m1ghtysauc3

I carry condition 1. The pistol won't fire otherwise  
A guy I know showed up at my house once after he got his concealed permit. He had a full size XD 40 down the pack of his pants! This was the one time where I thought, "Man I hope he's not condition 1." He was carrying it with an empty magazine. *FACEPALM*


----------



## ScottieG59

I always carry handguns with a round in the chamber and in a proper holster. Currently, none of my carry guns have manual safeties or magazine disconnects. 

In the past, condition 1 with a 1911 made many people nervous. Mine were never drop safe, but I carried condition 1 anyway. Cocked and locked was the way. 
I have seen security camera footage of how many people actually react to an up close attack. One video was disturbing enough that I had trouble sleeping that night. The store owner was unable to get a single shot off and panicked, trying to rack the slide over and over. I think he had a manual safety blocking the slide movement. He died never figuring how to get his weapon in the fight. 

Another issue is that it is possible your first sign you are in a gun fight is when you are shot. Why make it tougher to get in the fight after an injury? Also, you may be using other arm for something such as moving innocents to out of the line of fire. 

A proper holster is essential along with trigger discipline. 

Remember, you already failed to see the attack unfolding; why handicap yourself even more?


----------



## TheLAGuy

so how about when you take it out of the holster? i actually got a blackhawk poly holster for my px4 storm. i must say its pretty nice and cant access the trigger. however im a newbie when it comes to hand guns, dont have the confidence yet to be running around condition 1.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> so how about when you take it out of the holster?...


I don't understand your question.

If your pistol is in its holster in Condition One, it comes out in Condition One.
You would only press its safety lever to "off" when you are bringing it up to eye level, in preparation for taking a shot.
When it's up at eye level, with its safety "off," and you are certain that you are going to fire, only then does your finger reach for the pistol's trigger.

This whole sequence is simple if you break it down into separate steps. Then you must practice doing it, over and over again, until it becomes one smooth motion and almost automatic.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I don't understand your question.
> 
> If your pistol is in its holster in Condition One, it comes out in Condition One.
> You would only press its safety lever to "off" when you are bringing it up to eye level, in preparation for taking a shot.
> When it's up at eye level, with its safety "off," and you are certain that you are going to fire, only then does your finger reach for the pistol's trigger.
> 
> This whole sequence is simple if you break it down into separate steps. Then you must practice doing it, over and over again, until it becomes one smooth motion and almost automatic.


Do you find yourself more nervous when its in condition one?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> Do you find yourself more nervous when its in condition one?


No.
I am aware that my pistol is in Condition One.
I am also aware that it is safely contained within its holster, with no access to either safety lever or trigger.
Further, I _never_ access my pistol without first thinking carefully about what I am about to do. I routinely access my pistol only when I go to bed, at which time I remove it from its holster and place it upon the table at my bedside. Other access times might be when I am displaying the gun to an interested friend, and, of course, when I might have to make a presentation in self-defense or in the defense of others.
If I access my gun to show a friend, I follow an invariable, specific routine which ends up with me handing the friend a completely unloaded, wide-open pistol.
Were I to access my pistol in self-defense, I would use a well-practiced, very specific series of actions as well.

If you feel nervous handling a loaded gun, I suggest that you invest in some professional training.
Once you have learned the safe routines of gun handling, all it takes is a whole lot of practice, by which you make those routines an invariable part of your life.


----------



## Ricky59

Condition 1 always..

Put it this way.. if I wasn't comfortable carrying a firearm in condition 1 I'd be looking for a new firearm..
My Kahr PM9 is my primary carry with no worries about condition 1..
And I recently picked up a Glock 19.. what a shooter..


----------



## TheLAGuy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> No.
> I am aware that my pistol is in Condition One.
> I am also aware that it is safely contained within its holster, with no access to either safety lever or trigger.
> Further, I _never_ access my pistol without first thinking carefully about what I am about to do. I routinely access my pistol only when I go to bed, at which time I remove it from its holster and place it upon the table at my bedside. Other access times might be when I am displaying the gun to an interested friend, and, of course, when I might have to make a presentation in self-defense or in the defense of others.
> If I access my gun to show a friend, I follow an invariable, specific routine which ends up with me handing the friend a completely unloaded, wide-open pistol.
> Were I to access my pistol in self-defense, I would use a well-practiced, very specific series of actions as well.
> 
> If you feel nervous handling a loaded gun, I suggest that you invest in some professional training.
> Once you have learned the safe routines of gun handling, all it takes is a whole lot of practice, by which you make those routines an invariable part of your life.


Some good comments in there and I appreciate your honesty.

I'm just saying that I'm a newbie, really like Beretta PX4 Storm, 9mm full version and its safety interlocks. I might venture into the G19 when I get some more confidence!

Thanks again guys for the comments!


----------



## TAPnRACK

Always carry with one in the chamber... when faced with a deadly force encounter you may not have time to chamber a round.

I see students that always ask this and explain that they assume if they pull out their firearm and "rack a round" an intruder or threat will turn tail & leave... wishful thinking.

Once you gain confidence in your skills and learn to employ safe handling of a firearm you not want to carry any other way.


----------



## SouthernBoy

There is an on-going discussion about this very topic on glocktalk.com;

(CCW: One in the chamber or not? - Glock Talk)

where some of the contributors have VERY definitive opinions. My take is quite simple.

This is a personal decision and one should take it in light of what serves them best, not what others believe they should or shouldn't do. In the final analysis, you will only know if you took the correction decision when the time comes where you have to pull that sidearm and use it. And even then you will only know how it work for that specific and instant case.

Personally, I won't carry a sidearm that is not in full battery and ready for use. But that's what I have determined to work for me.


----------



## XD40inAVL

StainlessSteel215 said:


> For those who can legally carry, either open or (preferably) concealed......do you carry your Glock with one in the pipe?
> 
> Took me a bit of time to work up the comfort and confidence in myself and my gun to carry this way, *since Glocks have no external safety*, but after only a few weeks its become second nature to me. Anyone have strong thoughts for or against this? I think if you have a secure holster that completely buries the trigger you have nothing to worry about. I wear the DeSantis IWB holster around 4 o clock that provides a nice deep carry but allows me to get a decent purchase on the gun when I draw at the range.


Since Glocks have no external (or second safety) besides the USA trigger safety we do not, and will not own any Glocks for SD, we have Springfield XD's. I consider a second safety like a grip safety an essential. Combined with both tactical and visual ability to check if a round is in the pipe and if the striker is cocked a plus.

But yea, for SD, especially carry, a round in the pipe is the only thing that makes sense. The layout of my house, alarm system and dogs that bark at anything near the hosue gives me time to rack the slide, if the closest gun is not ready. And I can determine that with accuracy by feel.


----------



## SouthernBoy

XD40inAVL said:


> Since Glocks have no external (or second safety) besides the USA trigger safety we do not, and will not own any Glocks for SD, we have Springfield XD's. I consider a second safety like a grip safety an essential. * Combined with both tactical and visual ability to check if a round is in the pipe and if the striker is cocked a plus.*
> 
> But yea, for SD, especially carry, a round in the pipe is the only thing that makes sense. The layout of my house, alarm system and dogs that bark at anything near the hosue gives me time to rack the slide, if the closest gun is not ready. And I can determine that with accuracy by feel.


Glock has these features and good ones at that.


----------



## XD40inAVL

SouthernBoy said:


> Glock has these features and good ones at that.


They do? They do refer to the extractor as a round chambered indicator, but it's subtle, and not a clear indicator. If you hands are cold, I wouldn't trust it as an indicator in the dark. Which models have grip safety, I haven't seen one? Striker cocked indicator?


----------



## TheLAGuy

XD40inAVL said:


> They do? They do refer to the extractor as a round chambered indicator, but it's subtle, and not a clear indicator. If you hands are cold, I wouldn't trust it as an indicator in the dark. Which models have grip safety, I haven't seen one? Striker cocked indicator?


I agree with you, what safety features do the Springfield Armory XD have, was considering picking up one of those bad boys.


----------



## SteamboatWillie

Folks should carry in whatever way makes them comfortable. I prefer to carry with one in the chamber for the following reasons:

_The rule of "threes" _
Quite a few years ago I attended a seminar regarding concealed carry and the "rule of threes" was discussed. The findings of self defense encounters indicated most happened in three seconds or less, with three rounds or less being fired, and at distances of less than three yards. And, it was usually dark.

I'll mention more in a second, but if I'm confronted I don't want to have to remember whether I have a round chambered or not. I always carry with one in the chamber and I always carry a gun with no external safety to disengage. I always carry in the same location on my body. I don't switch from ankle to shoulder to strong-side etc. It's always strong-side OWB with a cover garment. That's how I ALWAYS practice. In the heat of the moment I want to instinctively know where the gun is, how to get to it quickly and be confident that if I need to pull the trigger it will go bang.

_A real life encounter_
A few years ago I spoke directly to a young man who had to use his gun for self defense. Long story short, he's at a gas station, confronted by two thugs who try to pull him out of his car as he is trying to leave. They are dragging him out of the driver's seat and he is holding onto the steering wheel with his left hand to stay in the car. Fortunately he has a .45 Glock in the center console - with one in the pipe. After going through the agonizing decision of "is this the time I can legally defend myself?" he decides it's now or never, gets the console open, grabs his gun and fires two rounds into the attacker's midsection. Cops come, he's interviewed, they view the gas station footage, he's released. I think the video may be on youtube if anyone doubts the story.

Anyway, do you think he's happy he chose to carry with one in the chamber? Being dragged out by two men, one hand on the steering wheel to stay in the car, and the other to grab the gun and fire. Not much opportunity to rack the slide... I guess that's how real like works sometimes - no time or opportunity to rack the slide, no iso stance, no "front sight, press". Just get the gun and shoot to stop the threat to your life.

_Professional training_
I'm not ex-LEO or ninja or ex-SF. I'm just an old legally armed citizen. So to protect myself properly, I've spent considerable time and money on sound training in basic marksmanship and specifically in concealed carry; drawing from concealed, moving and shooting, use of vehicles as cover, shooting from vehicles, handgun retention, contact shots, shooting attackers who try to grab and restrain me, shoot-house scenarios with simunitions, shoot/no shoot scenarios etc. etc.

Not _one_ instructor who trained me, nor any of the high-profile schools like Gunsite, Sig Academy, TDI has ever to my knowledge suggested carrying without a round chambered for personal self defense with a handgun. There may be some, but I submit they are in the minority.

So, again, I respect everyone's decision to carry however they please. For me - one in the pipe, always.


----------



## pic

TheLAGuy said:


> Some good comments in there and I appreciate your honesty.
> 
> I'm just saying that I'm a newbie, really like Beretta PX4 Storm, 9mm full version and its safety interlocks. I might venture into the G19 when I get some more confidence!
> 
> Thanks again guys for the comments!


Very good thinking LAGuy,You are not a newbie any more, good job. IMO and being a glock owner, they have a safe action that is very effective if the gun is dropped. It's plain as day your chances of letting a round off negligently or accidentally with a glock in condition one is greater then any other handgun. People sometimes confuse Confidence with over Confidence .IMO they make a great law enforcement side arm for an open carry with the proper holster. Remember the question here is carrying a glock in condition one.


----------



## shaolin

Yes I carry it loaded in condition 1 at all times


----------



## SouthernBoy

XD40inAVL said:


> They do? They do refer to the extractor as a round chambered indicator, but it's subtle, and not a clear indicator. If you hands are cold, I wouldn't trust it as an indicator in the dark. Which models have grip safety, I haven't seen one? Striker cocked indicator?


This is what I highlighted in your post;

*"Combined with both tactical and visual ability to check if a round is in the pipe and if the striker is cocked a plus."*

There is nothing in that sentence you wrote that talks about a grip safety. Now as to the loaded chamber indicator, it works very well for my purposes. It is both a visible and a tactile indicator as does its job well. The cocked indicator is also both visual and tactile. It is the trigger. If the trigger is at the rear of the guard, the striker is at rest. If the trigger is in the middle of the guard, it is in its half cocked condition... which means the gun is ready to be fired.


----------



## SouthernBoy

SteamboatWillie said:


> Folks should carry in whatever way makes them comfortable. I prefer to carry with one in the chamber for the following reasons:
> 
> _The rule of "threes" _
> Quite a few years ago I attended a seminar regarding concealed carry and the "rule of threes" was discussed. The findings of self defense encounters indicated most happened in three seconds or less, with three rounds or less being fired, and at distances of less than three yards. And, it was usually dark.
> 
> I'll mention more in a second, but if I'm confronted I don't want to have to remember whether I have a round chambered or not. I always carry with one in the chamber and I always carry a gun with no external safety to disengage. I always carry in the same location on my body. I don't switch from ankle to shoulder to strong-side etc. It's always strong-side OWB with a cover garment. That's how I ALWAYS practice. In the heat of the moment I want to instinctively know where the gun is, how to get to it quickly and be confident that if I need to pull the trigger it will go bang.
> 
> _A real life encounter_
> A few years ago I spoke directly to a young man who had to use his gun for self defense. Long story short, he's at a gas station, confronted by two thugs who try to pull him out of his car as he is trying to leave. They are dragging him out of the driver's seat and he is holding onto the steering wheel with his left hand to stay in the car. Fortunately he has a .45 Glock in the center console - with one in the pipe. After going through the agonizing decision of "is this the time I can legally defend myself?" he decides it's now or never, gets the console open, grabs his gun and fires two rounds into the attacker's midsection. Cops come, he's interviewed, they view the gas station footage, he's released. I think the video may be on youtube if anyone doubts the story.
> 
> Anyway, do you think he's happy he chose to carry with one in the chamber? Being dragged out by two men, one hand on the steering wheel to stay in the car, and the other to grab the gun and fire. Not much opportunity to rack the slide... I guess that's how real like works sometimes - no time or opportunity to rack the slide, no iso stance, no "front sight, press". Just get the gun and shoot to stop the threat to your life.
> 
> _Professional training_
> I'm not ex-LEO or ninja or ex-SF. I'm just an old legally armed citizen. So to protect myself properly, I've spent considerable time and money on sound training in basic marksmanship and specifically in concealed carry; drawing from concealed, moving and shooting, use of vehicles as cover, shooting from vehicles, handgun retention, contact shots, shooting attackers who try to grab and restrain me, shoot-house scenarios with simunitions, shoot/no shoot scenarios etc. etc.
> 
> Not _one_ instructor who trained me, nor any of the high-profile schools like Gunsite, Sig Academy, TDI has ever to my knowledge suggested carrying without a round chambered for personal self defense with a handgun. There may be some, but I submit they are in the minority.
> 
> So, again, I respect everyone's decision to carry however they please. For me - one in the pipe, always.


Excellent writeup. I concur with your points. I also do not want any external safeties to get in my way, to remember whether or not they're engaged, and in the extreme conditions of a violent attack to have to fiddle with then to get my firearm into the game. All I want to be able to do is "pull and pull" (pull the gun and pull the trigger). That is how I train and that is what has become my muscle and brain memory.

Along with this and even more important, is to carry a gun which is as close as humanly possible to being 100% reliable. The loudest sound in the world when you are faced with a deadly encounter is CLICK. This means the best quality ammunition you can put in your gun and the most reliable firearm you can put on your person.


----------



## VAMarine

SouthernBoy said:


> This is what I highlighted in your post;
> 
> *"Combined with both tactical and visual ability to check if a round is in the pipe and if the striker is cocked a plus."*
> 
> There is nothing in that sentence you wrote that talks about a grip safety. Now as to the loaded chamber indicator, it works very well for my purposes. It is both a visible and a tactile indicator as does its job well. *The cocked indicator is also both visual and tactile. It is the trigger. * If the trigger is at the rear of the guard, the striker is at rest. If the trigger is in the middle of the guard, it is in its half cocked condition... which means the gun is ready to be fired.


The Glock trigger is not a tactile indicator of cocked status...

Remember that whole "keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire" thing? Feeling up on the trigger of a Glock to determine its cocked status is a recipe for a neglgent discharge or some hurt feelings.


----------



## TheLAGuy

VAMarine said:


> The Glock trigger is not a tactile indicator of cocked status...
> 
> Remember that whole "keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire" thing? Feeling up on the trigger of a Glock to determine its cocked status is a recipe for a neglgent discharge or some hurt feelings.


I take it your anti-glock? correct?


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> I take it your anti-glock? correct?


Nope we have 3 or 4. I'm anti breaking the very most basic of firearms safety rules.

Tactile = touch

Touching the trigger in an attempt to verify cocked status is flat out stupid and ingrains bad habits.

Not sure if Southern meant to imply something else, but that's what he stated.

To be continued


----------



## Ricky59

Yes I agree...
Keep your finger off the bang switch..


----------



## TheLAGuy

VAMarine said:


> Nope we have 3 or 4. I'm anti breaking the very most basic of firearms safety rules.
> 
> Tactile = touch
> 
> Touching the trigger in an attempt to verify cocked status is flat out stupid and ingrains bad habits.
> 
> Not sure if Southern meant to imply something else, but that's what he stated.
> 
> To be continued


How do you check?


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> How do you check?


If the gun has a round in the chamber, its cocked. Cycling the slide (either manually or by firing) is what cocked the mechanism of a Glock, so if you've loaded the gun it cocked in the process.

If its not loaded, it doesn't really matter but some like to relieve the spring tension.

You can visually check the cocked status by looking at the position of the trigger, that part of Southern's post is correct. If the trigger is all the way to the rear the sear has been tripped and the striker has been released = no longer cocked.


----------



## TAPnRACK

Or you can simply pull the slide back a little to show if a round is chambered. I do it everytime after I put my duty weapon (Glock) in a lock box while dealing with arrestees/prisoners... just to be safe & for my own piece of mind to ensure their is still one in the chamber.

Works for me.


----------



## TheLAGuy

TAPnRACK said:


> Or you can simply pull the slide back a little to show if a round is chambered. I do it everytime after I put my duty weapon (Glock) in a lock box while dealing with arrestees/prisoners... just to be safe & for my own piece of mind to ensure their is still one in the chamber.
> 
> Works for me.


Where do you lay down the law? What city? .40 cal glock? what are your thoughts.


----------



## pic

Disengaging a safety is a very slight physical movement.Pulling your shirt out of the way to get to your handgun is another physical move. Undoing the thumbbreak or retention strap on a holster is another move. Should I not scratch the top of my head because this will create more distance to reach for my side arm. Should I not hold my child's hand while crossing a busy street because it takes one hand to pull my shirt up and reach for my sidearm. What happens if your shoe becomes untied ? I can't look down and tie my shoe,,a bad guy might come a charging


----------



## Unarmedwelshman

Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon. 

1. find a stepladder
2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
3. move stepladder out of the way
4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
6. flick spider off my head
7. find gun cabinet keys 
8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
9. take out AR-15
10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
12. flick spiders big friend off my head
13. climb out of loft with AR-15
14. I am now armed

I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!


----------



## TheLAGuy

Unarmedwelshman said:


> Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon.
> 
> 1. find a stepladder
> 2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
> 3. move stepladder out of the way
> 4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
> 5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
> 6. flick spider off my head
> 7. find gun cabinet keys
> 8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
> 9. take out AR-15
> 10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
> 11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
> 12. flick spiders big friend off my head
> 13. climb out of loft with AR-15
> 14. I am now armed
> 
> I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!


Isnt that super illegal in Wales?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Unarmedwelshman said:


> Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon.
> 
> 1. find a stepladder
> 2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
> 3. move stepladder out of the way
> 4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
> 5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
> 6. flick spider off my head
> 7. find gun cabinet keys
> 8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
> 9. take out AR-15
> 10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
> 11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
> 12. flick spiders big friend off my head
> 13. climb out of loft with AR-15
> 14. I am now armed
> 
> I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!


:anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol:


----------



## Unarmedwelshman

TheLAGuy said:


> Isnt that super illegal in Wales?


Which bit? Flicking spiders off my head? Yes but only if you dont apologise to the spider!


----------



## pic

Unarmedwelshman said:


> Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon.
> 
> 1. find a stepladder
> 2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
> 3. move stepladder out of the way
> 4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
> 5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
> 6. flick spider off my head
> 7. find gun cabinet keys
> 8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
> 9. take out AR-15
> 10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
> 11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
> 12. flick spiders big friend off my head
> 13. climb out of loft with AR-15
> 14. I am now armed
> 
> I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!


:anim_lol:


----------



## SteamboatWillie

pic said:


> Disengaging a safety is a very slight physical movement.Pulling your shirt out of the way to get to your handgun is another physical move. Undoing the thumbbreak or retention strap on a holster is another move. Should I not scratch the top of my head because this will create more distance to reach for my side arm. Should I not hold my child's hand while crossing a busy street because it takes one hand to pull my shirt up and reach for my sidearm. What happens if your shoe becomes untied ? I can't look down and tie my shoe,,a bad guy might come a charging


pic - Many people are comfortable carrying a gun with an external safety. Certainly the 1911 folks. I don't see anything wrong with _them_ doing it, but it's simply not for me.

My reason for not having an external safety is because if I should forget the "very slight movement" I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang. I'm sure if I started practicing today in a reasonable amount of time I could add it to my draw stroke. But I don't see any reason to change.

And to see the bad side - I found this account on a website of jewelers. The excerpt below is part of a discussion about whether they should carry a gun or simply try to avoid harm by doing exactly as the thief says. Give up the goods and let them be on their way. The entire article is located here

_"DFC Estate Jewelers, West Palm Beach, Fla.

Jeweler Jack Schram was working on his taxes in August 1994 when a man came to the door of his store. "I wasn't paying attention," he says. "There was a knock on the door. Instinctively I hit the buzzer and then looked up. As soon as I looked up, I knew I made a mistake." The "customer" was wearing an untucked, baggy shirt, a baseball cap, and sunglasses. "He just didn't look right," Schram recalls.

The man pointed to the counter and blurted out, "How much is that watch?" Says Schram, "He almost asked the question before he looked. I said, 'It's $500.' I didn't even care what it was." The man turned away. "As he turned, he bent down. I don't know why, but I knew exactly what he was doing," says Schram. Knowing that the "customer" was going to draw a weapon, the jeweler pulled out his own gun. "I beat him to the draw. There was only one problem: *I forgot to take the safety off. *I'm not James Bond. This isn't something I do all the time."

*Startled, the intruder opened fire. "He didn't have to worry about a safety; he had a revolver,* a Saturday-night special," Schram says. "Unfortunately, five of his bullets hit me; four in the abdomen and one in the arm." A sixth bullet struck the wall. No doubt thinking Schram was going to shoot him, the man ran to the door but couldn't get out; the security system required Schram to buzz him out. "He comes back to me; I get down on the floor under my desk. *I have my gun in my hand. I don't know why it's not working. *I'm thinking, 'I'm gonna die. I just got shot. I'm not dreaming. I have 2-year-old twin girls.' "

Despite all that happened, the jeweler-who had been the victim of armed robberies twice before the shooting incident-went back to work. But the incident hasn't changed his mind about guns. He replaced his stolen weapon with a Glock. "It doesn't have a safety," he says."_

Adrenalin, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion - all things that need to be dealt with in a life and death situation. That's the reason I prefer to carry handguns that have the same manual of arms and no external safety (and my holsters don't have a thumb break). I'm not saying it's the correct answer for everyone, it's just my my personal decision on method of carry.


----------



## SouthernBoy

VAMarine said:


> The Glock trigger is not a tactile indicator of cocked status...
> 
> Remember that whole "keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire" thing? Feeling up on the trigger of a Glock to determine its cocked status is a recipe for a neglgent discharge or some hurt feelings.


Yes it is. There is a way to do this. Do NOT put your finger inside of the guard, as I'm sure you inferred. In lit conditions, merely look at the trigger to determine whether or not it's cocked. In low or no light conditions, move your finger to the rear outside of the trigger guard and feel for the trigger. Yes you had to do this carefully. But look at it this way. If the firearm has been cocked, the trigger is going to be forward in its position. If not, it won't.

Mind you, I don't do this because I know what condition my SD guns are in all the time. They are either loaded, in which case there is a round in the chamber, or they are unloaded, in which case the strike is at rest. There are only two cases where I touch my trigger: when practicing with an unloaded gun or when firing it.

I don't do what I mentioned because I don't need to do this. I only mentioned it because it is possible to determine the state of the firearm by doing these things.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Deleted due to duplicate post.


----------



## VAMarine

OK, on a real computer now. Much better then posting from the phone.

Regarding cocked striker indicators and loaded chamber indicators:

1: The XD/XDM is better thought out in this regard as both the loaded chamber indicator and cocked striker indicator can be assessed while the gun is in the holster. While the Glock's trigger can be used to determine striker status, it's not thought of specifically as a cocked striker indicator, it's just the trigger. I've never seen it advocated by Glock that that it was intended to be used as such. I could be wrong, but either way it doesn't really matter.

2: Those indicators, while nice can be wrong as they do get broken. The loaded chamber indicator of the XDM (not sure about the XD, never spent that much time with them) can get broken off. Same with the striker indicator. They should not be relied on.

3: If you want to know what status your gun is in, do like TapnRack mentioned and do a press check. If there is a round in the chamber, the gun is cocked (referring to Glocks and XD variants) if you want to decock the pistol:

--Step 1: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
--Step 2: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
--Step 3: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
--Step 4: Aim at a "safe area" and pull the trigger.

The gun is now de-cocked.

Your gun is loaded or it is not. The only way to be sure is to visually verify that there is indeed a live round in the chamber or that there is not.

When loading your gun...provided you don't live in Wales.

1: Inspect cartridges in magazine
2: Load mag into gun ensuring it is properly seated. Give it a good yank
3: Chamber a round. 
4: Perform a press check.
5: If desired, top-off the magazine ensuring that it is properly seated
6: Holster firearm / place in designated house gun spot

After those things are done, DON'T MESS WITH THE GUN

It will not magically load or unload itself unless it is out of your possession or left unsecured and someone else messes with the gun.

If out of your immediate possession etc. when you pick up the gun you check it's status by performing a press check and checking the magazine for it's load and to make sure it's firmly seated in the gun.

If you do decide you want to mess with the gun, see steps 1-4 in blue.


----------



## pic

SteamboatWillie said:


> pic - Many people are comfortable carrying a gun with an external safety. Certainly the 1911 folks. I don't see anything wrong with _them_ doing it, but it's simply not for me.
> 
> My reason for not having an external safety is because if I should forget the "very slight movement" I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang. I'm sure if I started practicing today in a reasonable amount of time I could add it to my draw stroke. But I don't see any reason to change.
> 
> And to see the bad side - I found this account on a website of jewelers. The excerpt below is part of a discussion about whether they should carry a gun or simply try to avoid harm by doing exactly as the thief says. Give up the goods and let them be on their way. The entire article is located here
> 
> _"DFC Estate Jewelers, West Palm Beach, Fla.
> 
> Jeweler Jack Schram was working on his taxes in August 1994 when a man came to the door of his store. "I wasn't paying attention," he says. "There was a knock on the door. Instinctively I hit the buzzer and then looked up. As soon as I looked up, I knew I made a mistake." The "customer" was wearing an untucked, baggy shirt, a baseball cap, and sunglasses. "He just didn't look right," Schram recalls.
> 
> The man pointed to the counter and blurted out, "How much is that watch?" Says Schram, "He almost asked the question before he looked. I said, 'It's $500.' I didn't even care what it was." The man turned away. "As he turned, he bent down. I don't know why, but I knew exactly what he was doing," says Schram. Knowing that the "customer" was going to draw a weapon, the jeweler pulled out his own gun. "I beat him to the draw. There was only one problem: *I forgot to take the safety off. *I'm not James Bond. This isn't something I do all the time."
> 
> *Startled, the intruder opened fire. "He didn't have to worry about a safety; he had a revolver,* a Saturday-night special," Schram says. "Unfortunately, five of his bullets hit me; four in the abdomen and one in the arm." A sixth bullet struck the wall. No doubt thinking Schram was going to shoot him, the man ran to the door but couldn't get out; the security system required Schram to buzz him out. "He comes back to me; I get down on the floor under my desk. *I have my gun in my hand. I don't know why it's not working. *I'm thinking, 'I'm gonna die. I just got shot. I'm not dreaming. I have 2-year-old twin girls.' "
> 
> Despite all that happened, the jeweler-who had been the victim of armed robberies twice before the shooting incident-went back to work. But the incident hasn't changed his mind about guns. He replaced his stolen weapon with a Glock. "It doesn't have a safety," he says."_
> 
> Adrenalin, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion - all things that need to be dealt with in a life and death situation. That's the reason I prefer to carry handguns that have the same manual of arms and no external safety (and my holsters don't have a thumb break). I'm not saying it's the correct answer for everyone, it's just my my personal decision on method of carry.


Very understandable, I do not disagree . I personally become more focused when a situation arises.If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice. Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.


----------



## XD40inAVL

TheLAGuy said:


> I agree with you, what safety features do the Springfield Armory XD have, was considering picking up one of those bad boys.


Loaded chamber indicator on top of slide immediately behind ejection port. Easy to see or feel.
Striker status indicator on end of slide. East to see or feel. 
Grip safety, that is active until you have a proper grip. Also blocks striker making discharge by dropping impossible.
USA (Ultra Safe Assurance) trigger safety.


----------



## XD40inAVL

pic said:


> Very understandable, I do not disagree . I personally become more focused when a situation arises.If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice. Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.


XD's also do not have an external safety to prevent firing in a critical situation. Taking the safety off requires lots and lots of practice to develop the "muscle memory" to do it every-time without thinking.

My choice was made on that, not having to remember the safety when it matters, plus the grip safety, which if you have a proper grip on the gun is not noticeable, plus visual and tactical check of round chambered and striker cocked, handy in the dark while you listen to noises to determine if it's the dog or a BG. We have 3 XD's in the house, and it doesn't matter which may be at hand when needed, they all work the same.

Nervous about carrying with one in the pipe, carry with only the mag loaded, but striker cocked and carry concealed, carry open around house, draw from time to time (not in public). Do this for a week, and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised to find that the striker is still cocked.


----------



## SteamboatWillie

pic said:


> I personally become more focused when a situation arises.


And that's why my decision isn't for everyone. You're confident it won't happen to you, and you prefer a gun with a safety. No issues from me.



pic said:


> If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice? Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.


I really can't say, not knowing him or his level of training. Probably yes, maybe no. I will say that I've seen a fairly good shooter try to switch from a DA/SA to a 1911 and do a timed drill. (draw from concealed and get two hits on an 8" target in less than 2 seconds). On his first attempt he called "ready", the buzzer went off and he got on target and... nothing. He gripped the gun as he would his carry gun and that put his thumbs UNDER the safety. He pulled the trigger and the safety was still on. He looked at gun for a second and then realized what he had done. Not a good thing to do had this been a self defense situation.

So, at the very least, I tend to think that people who rotate their carry gun (as I do) should stick to the same manual of arms. Or at least train with a safety and occasionally carry one without it (it doesn't hurt to swipe off a safety that isn't there.) :mrgreen:

But again, it's their choice and if that's what they feel comfortable doing, it's not for me to judge or criticize.


----------



## pic

SteamboatWillie said:


> And that's why my decision isn't for everyone. You're confident it won't happen to you, and you prefer a gun with a safety. No issues from me.
> 
> I really can't say, not knowing him or his level of training. Probably yes, maybe no. I will say that I've seen a fairly good shooter try to switch from a DA/SA to a 1911 and do a timed drill. (draw from concealed and get two hits on an 8" target in less than 2 seconds). On his first attempt he called "ready", the buzzer went off and he got on target and... nothing. He gripped the gun as he would his carry gun and that put his thumbs UNDER the safety. He pulled the trigger and the safety was still on. He looked at gun for a second and then realized what he had done. Not a good thing to do had this been a self defense situation.
> 
> So, at the very least, I tend to think that people who rotate their carry gun (as I do) should stick to the same manual of arms. Or at least train with a safety and occasionally carry one without it (it doesn't hurt to swipe off a safety that isn't there.) :mrgreen:
> 
> But again, it's their choice and if that's what they feel comfortable doing, it's not for me to judge or criticize.


Absolutely, very good points, I agree. 
I have been handling firearms for 40 years. I've seen lots of people handling firearms. _VAMarine in the upper post is __right on the money with all the text, not just step 1,2,3_
But 1, 2, and 3 , Sounds like he has been watching me doing step 1,2,3,.

--Step 1: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
--Step 2: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
--Step 3: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
I Really like a gun with a safety just in case of a situation where my gun gets out of my possession and into the hands of the bad guy. I do not want them to be able to just pull the trigger.It has happened to me. Lot of details that I can't get into right now. But as he was pulling the trigger on my handgun I knew the safety was engaged. I was able to go for my backup firearm thanks to the safety on my handgun that the bad guy couldn't figure out or new existed. That is why Like you mention ,is my personal choice.


----------



## VAMarine

XD40inAVL said:


> XD's also *do not have an external safety to prevent firing in a critical situation. * Taking the safety off requires lots and lots of practice to develop the "muscle memory" to do it every-time without thinking.
> 
> My choice was made on that, not having to remember the safety when it matters, plus the grip safety, which if you have a proper grip on the gun is not noticeable
> 
> ....


The grip safety IS an external safety and you do have to develope the proper muscle memory on acheiving a high, proper grip from the holster in order for the gun to work. I agree that it is more passive than a thumb safety, but it is still most certainly an external safety and one that can render the gun useless of one does not practice.


----------



## smirk43

By the time it takes to rack the slide, could mean life or death!


----------



## XD40inAVL

VAMarine said:


> The grip safety IS an external safety and you do have to develope the proper muscle memory on acheiving a high, proper grip from the holster in order for the gun to work. I agree that it is more passive than a thumb safety, but it is still most certainly an external safety and one that can render the gun useless of one does not practice.


And you practice that every single time you fire the gun. And if you are not practicing, what in hell are you doing carrying a gun?

A friends SIL has a CCW, but doesn't even own a gun. Were he to go out a buy any handgun, he could carry without ever firing it. Probably an opportunity for failure or ND.


----------



## pic

There is no such thing as "condition one" with a Glock. I think maybe someone already mentioned this.


----------



## RONWEN

Just as 1911's were designed to be carried "hammer back" Glocks are designed to carry "ready to fire".


----------



## pic

RONWEN said:


> Just as 1911's were designed to be carried "hammer back" Glocks are designed to carry "ready to fire".


 That is the Best description of a GLOCK. " Ready To Fire Condition "
I Love my G27, great little piece. I show that Glock a huge amount of respect.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

pic said:


> There is no such thing as "condition one" with a Glock. I think maybe someone already mentioned this.


Although this is technically true, the term "Condition One" has a very clear meaning to those of us who shoot: Loaded, and _ready to fire_.
"Condition Two" is ambiguous, in terms of the Glock. Therefore, "Condition One" is useful because it is unambiguous.


----------



## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Although this is technically true, the term "Condition One" has a very clear meaning to those of us who shoot: Loaded, and _ready to fire_.
> "Condition Two" is ambiguous, in terms of the Glock. Therefore, "Condition One" is useful because it is unambiguous.


Understandable, If an instructor commanded his students to " condition one " and the students guns were of different models would a 1911 be cocked n locked or just cocked with round chambered . Thanks


----------



## Steve M1911A1

pic said:


> ...If an instructor commanded his students to " condition one " and the students guns were of different models would a 1911 be cocked n locked or just cocked with round chambered . Thanks


The "Condition X" terminology was created for use with the 1911 platform. The Conditions, in 1911 terms, mean exactly:
• Condition One-magazine loaded and in place, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Two-magazine loaded and in place, chamber loaded, hammer down (which is completely safe, in a 1911), safety off.
• Condition Three-magazine loaded and in place, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off.

For Glocks, "Condition One" and "Condition Two" are both ambiguous, and maybe even interchangeable. Therefore, it is safest-and least ambiguous-to consider a fully loaded and ready-to-fire Glock (or Springfield, or whatever) to be in "Condition One." Therefore, for a Glock, there is no "Condition Two."

In the 1911, "Condition Two" was created (but not yet called that) for use by the US Cavalry. The cavalry trooper was to carry in "Condition Two," and was to draw and thumb-cock with his master hand when the pistol was needed. Obviously, the trooper's other hand was occupied in controlling his horse. This is the reason for the 1911's "half-cock" notch, which really isn't a half-cock at all, but rather a means of safely catching a slipped and falling hammer during a botched cavalry-style draw.
"Condition Two" will eventually lead to an unsafe maneuver. Should the "half-cock" notch chip or otherwise fail, a botched attempt to thumb-cock over a loaded chamber _may_ lead to a negligent discharge. No experienced, safety-minded 1911 shooter ever uses "Condition Two."


----------



## jeffreybehr

Yes, I do. There are times when cycling the slide creates too much noise, so I carry mine ready to shoot.


----------



## berettatoter

As long as its holstered properly, why not?


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> Understandable, If an instructor commanded his students to " condition one " and the students guns were of different models would a 1911 be cocked n locked *or just cocked with round chambered* . Thanks


That would be condition zero; a loaded and chambered gun, cocked without the safety engaged. This is not possible with an OEM Glock.

"Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off."


----------



## Steve M1911A1

To me, at least, "Condition Zero" is mostly a quibble, and confuses the issue.
The term "Condition One" and its meaning is almost universally known: It's a gun that's ready to fire.
Why complicate the concept?


----------



## pic

I can understand my confusion why the term condition one could be universal with all the different variations of handguns when the terms were mainly defined for the 1911.
Doing a little bit of research. (click here) Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The conditional terms were promulgated with just the 1911 in mind by Mr. cooper.
Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.

This firearm condition system can also be used to refer to other firearm actions, particularly when illustrating the differences between carry modes considered to be safe for various actions. For example, DA/SA is designed to be carried in Condition 2, which is not safe for 1911s without firing pin safeties. PROMULGATED IS THE BIG WORD HERE,lol.

I'm still trying to get the word Ambiguous out of my head. I had to look it up in the dictionary, Thanks Steve M1911A1, for putting that word out there to screw with me,lol. like a song you here and it stays in your head,lol. AMBIGUOUS, wtf.lol. 
(I'm calling out loud ) WIFE WHAT THE HECK DOES AMBIGUOUS MEAN, STEVE DID IT AGAIN TO ME.LOL. iS THAT THE SAME GUY WHO PUT HOPLOPHOBE IN YOUR HEAD A FEW WEEKS AGO,LOL.YES THE SAME GUY WHO LIVES ON KILLER WHALES.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> To me, at least, "Condition Zero" is mostly a quibble, and confuses the issue.
> The term "Condition One" and its meaning is almost universally known: It's a gun that's ready to fire.
> Why complicate the concept?


It's not my invention; it's Mr. Cooper's.

I don't see where he complicated the issue. Now Condition Zero is not a condition the Glock can take since the operator has no control over any of the safeties built into the gun. If the striker is in its half cocked position, then the internal safety block is doing its job, blocking the striker from moving forward. I'm sure most folks know that Jeff Cooper came up with his "conditions" using the 1911 as his guide. So for that design, Condition Zero makes prefect sense, especially when one considers the fact that Cooper served as a Marine in WWII and dispatched at least three of the enemy with his sidearm.


----------



## pic

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:

More importantly then the condition of your carry gun ,,is your state of awareness according to one's
Combat Mindset-The Cooper Color Code


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:
> 
> More importantly then the condition of your carry gun ,,is your state of awareness according to one's
> Combat Mindset-The Cooper Color Code


I agree with this. The willingness to do extreme violence to someone very quickly without hesitation is something I don't know how to teach. What gets good people injured or killed in an extreme encounter is the fact that they really don't want to hurt someone. They question the situation ("Is this really happening to me, right now?), they hesitate ("Maybe I can scare them and they'll go away.), and they lack aggressive assuredness to do what must be done. We so frequently hear keyboard commandos and other braggarts say they would to this or they would do that, but in fact they would probably crap their pants if faced with an extreme situation like right now. Unless you have done this before, you are never really sure how you'll react to a violent attack until it happens.

War taught Mr. Cooper how to act and tens upon tens of thousands of Americans like him. Those of us who have never been faced with our own potential death, can only surmise how we would handle ourselves in an extreme and violent encounter.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.

Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, *pic*: _Immutable_ = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
"Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.


----------



## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
> My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
> So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.
> 
> Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
> However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, *pic*: _Immutable_ = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
> Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
> "Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.


:smt102 immutable !!! lol

:smt023


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
> My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
> So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.
> 
> Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
> However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, *pic*: _Immutable_ = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
> Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
> "Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.


Frankly, I had never heard of the term "Condition Zero" until perhaps two years ago. I had always thought that the Cooper condition definitions ended at Condition One. Another thing to get one's head wrapped around was trying to equate a DAO striker fired internal safety pistol to the condition system when that system was design around the 1911. That gave me pause for a while since I tend to think very literally (a product of being a software engineer for many year or maybe the other way around).

Glad to hear you had the opportunity to meet a legend in the gun culture. Did you have the opportunity to talk much with him?


----------



## MikeT57

Condition 1. Always. That extra 1-2 seconds to rack the slide could end tragically


----------



## Easy_CZ

Yes. Why would you not?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

SouthernBoy said:


> Frankly, I had never heard of the term "Condition Zero" until perhaps two years ago. I had always thought that the Cooper condition definitions ended at Condition One...


I, too, never heard about "Condition Zero" from Cooper or from anybody who ever worked for or with him. I believe that it, and "Condition Four," are modern fabrications, added to Cooper's system since his death.
Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
(I can hear the footsteps now, as *pic* runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)



SouthernBoy said:


> Glad to hear you had the opportunity to meet a legend in the gun culture. Did you have the opportunity to talk much with him?


One did not talk to Colonel Cooper, so much as listen intently to him. That I've done, once or twice.
The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."


----------



## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I, too, never heard about "Condition Zero" from Cooper or from anybody who ever worked for or with him. I believe that it, and "Condition Four," are modern fabrications, added to Cooper's system since his death.
> Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
> (I can hear the footsteps now, as *pic* runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)
> 
> One did not talk to Colonel Cooper, so much as listen intently to him. That I've done, once or twice.
> The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."


I almost missed this post, thanks
:smt046


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I, too, never heard about "Condition Zero" from Cooper or from anybody who ever worked for or with him. I believe that it, and "Condition Four," are modern fabrications, added to Cooper's system since his death.
> Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
> (I can hear the footsteps now, as *pic* runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)
> 
> *One did not talk to Colonel Cooper, so much as listen intently to him.* That I've done, once or twice.
> The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."


That sounds like a technique I use and have suggested others do the same. When in the company of someone who is known for their experience or expertise in a given area, or someone for whom you hold a great deal of respect, I suggest asking your questions then just sit back, shut up, and listen. Let them do the talking; there will be much to learn.

I met a man about six years ago, knew him first on a website, who was quite knowledgeable in gun fighting and related topics. He struck me as rather low key with his postings and when I met him, my original assessment was correct. No flare, no boisterous enunciation, no conceit, and no deliberately projected gugu-type persona... real or imagined. Just a low key, no nonsense, deliberate man about whom you immediately perceived knew his abilities and limitations. He had been in a number of gun fights in his career and I managed to find out that he had sent quite a few of his adversaries to meet their maker. Again, not at all a braggard, just a few things would come out here and there. We became friends and though I haven't seen him in a while, I still hear from him on occasion.

People like this carry a wealth of information. Getting it out of them can be a chore. But keeping your mouth zipped while listening to them can be so rewarding.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Can you guys explain what exactly condition zero is?


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> Can you guys explain what exactly condition zero is?


In the case of the 1911 pattern pistol kit would be:
Magazine loaded and inserted
Chamber loaded
Hammer cocked
Thumb safety in the firing position.


----------



## TheLAGuy

VAMarine said:


> In the case of the 1911 pattern pistol kit would be:
> Magazine loaded and inserted
> Chamber loaded
> Hammer cocked
> Thumb safety in the firing position.


So would a beretta px4 storm apply to this?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> So would a beretta px4 storm apply to this?


I've never handled a Storm, but I believe that it has a "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger and a slide-mounted safety-lever.
A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
Why is this true?
Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.

I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."

Trigger Actions:
• Traditional Double-Action (TDA, discussed above), in which the first trigger pull is long and hard, but subsequent ones are shorter and lighter.
• Double-Action Only (DAO), in which each and every pull of the trigger is as long and as hard as the TDA's first pull, and which usually does not require a safety-lever.
• Single-Action (SA), in which each and every pull of the trigger is short and light, which demands the use of a safety-lever.
(The Glock is a special case. I classify it as DAO, but other people disagree with this.)


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I've never handled a Storm, but I believe that it has a "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger and a slide-mounted safety-lever.
> A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
> It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
> Why is this true?
> Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
> Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
> Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.
> 
> I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."
> 
> Trigger Actions:
> • Traditional Double-Action (TDA, discussed above), in which the first trigger pull is long and hard, but subsequent ones are shorter and lighter.
> • Double-Action Only (DAO), in which each and every pull of the trigger is as long and as hard as the TDA's first pull, and which usually does not require a safety-lever.
> • Single-Action (SA), in which each and every pull of the trigger is short and light, which demands the use of a safety-lever.
> (The Glock is a special case. I classify it as DAO, but other people disagree with this.)


Firstly, thank God you referred to Double Action trigger designs in their proper manner; Double Action. It is a pet peeve of mine that they have been referred to over the past 10+ years as Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA). Anyone who has been around this for a while knows that the DA designation automatically means that the gun is DA/SA so the "/SA" part of the designation is inferred. I suspect this DA/SA designation came about because with the popularity of DAO pistols, some new folks to this game were getting confused.

As to the Glock pistol, it is a true DAO without second strike capability. I have gotten in a number of discussions (arguments?) with people on several websites about this very subject. Action type designation always refers to the task(s) the trigger carries out. In the case of the Glock, the trigger performs two distinct tasks to fire the weapon. It completes the cocking of the striker and it releases the striker, enabling it to ignite a cartridge. Some like to include the fact that it also moves the striker block safety out of the path of the striker, but that is generally not considered as part of the action (for some reason).

In one particular website discussion, my opponent was so intent upon maintaining his stance that I called Glock and spoke with a tech. He assure me that the Glock design is DAO and that the BATFE also designates their design as DAO.

There is another designation that could be applied to modern pistols and that would be SAO (Single Action Only). Two examples of this would be the Springfield Armory XD series and the Smith and Wesson M&P series. In the case of these designs, the striker is held in a fully cocked condition and the trigger only releases the sear (of course, there is the same striker safety block issue with these pistols, too). However, they are both designated as DAO pistols.

As for DA's and their long first pull triggers (best example is the Beretta 92 series/Taurus 92 series), the Kahr line of DAO pistols also have long (3/8ths of an inch) and smoothly consistent trigger pulls which makes them safer than Glocks or Glock designed pistols to carry in jacket pockets or purses. While I would not recommend this, I have carried pistols like this in a jacket pocket on occasion.


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> So would a beretta px4 storm apply to this?





Steve M1911A1 said:


> I've never handled a Storm, but I believe that it has a "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger and a slide-mounted safety-lever.
> A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
> It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
> Why is this true?
> Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
> Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
> Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.
> 
> I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."


Condition zero would be hammer back safety off, how the Beretta would be after chambering a round prior to being decocked. Hammer down on a loaded chamber safety off is still condition 1 for the Beretta.

The condition codes were origianlly created around the 1911 and trying to shoehorn other guns into those codes can be problematic if you stick to the exact text of the codes...

To be continued....


----------



## TheLAGuy

Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?

Also Steve, I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?
> 
> Also Steve, I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.


Yes on the first part, partially correct on the 2nd part.

the terms Double Action, DA/SA.(note that DA comes first) or traditional double action (TDA) all mean the same thing.

Double action first shot (assuming the gun has been decocked prior to firing) and the follow up shots are single action.


----------



## TAPnRACK

^ This.


----------



## SouthernBoy

TheLAGuy said:


> Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?
> 
> Also Steve, *I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.*


You have this backwards.


----------



## Stoy

I agree with the magority, if its not loaded its worthless.

Stoy


----------



## Desertrat

Yes....always C1


----------



## Broondog

StainlessSteel215 said:


> For those who can legally carry, either open or (preferably) concealed......do you carry your Glock with one in the pipe?


yes i do. this, to me, is the only reasonable way to carry any firearm, ie: ready to go (manual safety not withstanding). if the pistol is in any other condition you may as well draw it and throw it at the BG and run away since that is most likely all the time you will have before you are overrun.

my carry Glock 27 - C1. the ol' lady's Glock 22 truck gun - C1. in fact every gun in my house that is loaded is chambered and ready to go.


----------



## just for fun

VAMarine said:


> I don't always carry a Glock, but when I do, it's properly loaded.


 I'm old school and won't carry a glock. Prefered carry is a Smith J frame, second choice is a Smith Model 39 and it's carried with a round chambered, hammer down. Both have been carried for years (one at a time) and trust both beyond question. Too old to re-learn how to keep from the "glock leg" thing.


----------



## paratrooper

I couldn't remember if I had already responded to this thread and it's topic.......Carrying with a round in the tube. 

Anyways, I was too lazy to read thru all the pages to see if I had infact, responded. 

There's no way in this world that I would carry any firearm, unless it was totally in battery and ready to shoot. Carrying a semi-auto w/o a round in the chamber, is as nutty as carrying a revolver with the hammer on an empty chamber. 

Now I suppose there's some very old cowboy style revolvers that pretty much require you to carry with an empty chamber. Since I'm not into that type of revolver, I'm not going to worry about it. 

But, back to the topic. If you feel the need to carry and you're not comfortable with a round in the chamber, you might want to consider why you even want to carry in the first place. 

Just sayin..............:watching:


----------



## TAPnRACK

Maybe they like doing an Israeli Draw? I would never do it, but apparently some prefer this draw for some reason.






Not a fan of this technique... I'll stick with fully loaded with 1 in the chamber. Guy in the video also should stop using a "bowling" technique when he demontrates a "regular" draw.


----------



## paratrooper

TAPnRACK said:


> Maybe they like doing an Israeli Draw? I would never do it, but apparently some prefer this draw for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a fan of this technique... I'll stick with fully loaded with 1 in the chamber. Guy in the video also should stop using a "bowling" technique when he demontrates a "regular" draw.


As long as there is a camera handy and plenty of spare time to kill, someone will come up with an alternative to a conventional carry and/or draw.


----------



## Easy_CZ

StainlessSteel215 said:


> For those who can legally carry, either open or (preferably) concealed......do you carry your Glock with one in the pipe?


Why would you not? That's the way they are meant to be carried.

Having to remember AND have the precious time to rack your slide to chamber a round in an adrenaline-pumping SD situation is just asking for trouble. The fewer things you have to do to get your gun into action, the better. Fact. Period. End of story.


----------



## WilliamDahl

Sorry that I have not read the whole thread yet, but I wanted to point out that the normal carry condition for a Glock is Condition-0, not Condition-1, just like a DAO semi-auto or a revolver. If you pull the trigger and it goes bang, it is Condition-0. As far as I'm been able to figure out, it is not even possible to carry it in Condition-1 (a round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on) due to the fact that there is no safety. To carry it in Condition-2 (a round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down), you need to insert a round in the barrel while it is disassembled and then reassemble the firearm. I have tested this out and you do get a firearm where you can pull the trigger and it won't fire. You then have to give it a half-cock slide activation in order to cock it. I have no idea if this defeats the safety feature that supposedly prevents a Glock from firing when dropped though. As a matter of principle, I don't go around beating on my firearms to do destructive testing.

I own various types of handguns -- M1911s, Sigs, Colts, S&W, Rugers, Glocks, etc. So, I'm not one of those people who are critical of Glocks or any of the plastic firearms. They serve their purpose even though they might not be a piece of machinist art. They are functional and get the job done. For many people, that is all they need or want. Not everyone needs a Porsche -- a Honda Civic perfectly fits the needs of many people.

But, let's not kid ourselves by claiming that the normal carry condition of a Glock is Condition-1. If you draw the weapon and pull the trigger without having to activate a safety, then it is in Condition-0, not Condition-1.


----------



## motorcityhitman

I don't know about a Glock,but I appendix carry my Sig(no safety) in a Alessi Talon with one up the pipe and I don't worry about it.


----------



## Glock Doctor

Unlike a revolver, or a conventional SA/DA pistol every Glock's trigger mechanism is held under strong compression and, as long as the trigger is in the forward position, the striker mechanism remains more than 75% precocked. This means that the user has to be less than 25% of the idiot a normal gun owner has to be in order to negligently fire a Glock.

Fortunately, however, real men don't have to concern themselves with practically needless or poorly thoughtout Glock handling and safety issues. Out in the real world Glock ND/AD's only very rarely occur. (Once in a, 'blue moon' so to speak; and, even then, it's always the user's fault.) If you keep your finger off the trigger until AFTER you've made a conscious decision to fire, then, nothing bad is ever going to happen with your Glock.

A pistol without a live round in the chamber is about as useful as a brick. Only sissies and people who don't really know what they're doing with a gun carry in C-3. Don't be a sissy; know what you're supposed to be doing; and read the Glock Owner's Manual. If you're, still, too much of a pansy to carry your Glock in C-0 (the correct term) then you can't be trusted in a gunfight, anyway; and it's better if you stop carrying altogether, right now.

Maybe buy yourself a can of Mace Pepper Spray. These cans come with external safeties of their own; and you'll be a whole lot better off operating one of these things than trying to use a Glock. Only professionals should carry Glocks! Professionals know how to correctly handle ambush situations, how to fight at close quarters, and shoot a man off them if they have to. A Glock is a super fast, pure fighting handgun: pretensioned striker, no external safety, easily disengaged trigger safety, all with a (nominal) 5 1/2 - 6 lbs. trigger pull. This is, 'Why' only a professional should ever use a Glock.

So, what this whole discussion comes down to is one question, '_Are you professional enough to carry a Glock - Well, are you?_' If the answer is, '_Yes!_' then, 'man up' and put a live round in that chamber. Don't be no sissy boy! (The tone of this reply might sound a little harsh; but the next time you get into a gunfight you'll thank me.)


----------



## VAMarine

WilliamDahl said:


> Sorry that I have not read the whole thread yet, but I wanted to point out that the normal carry condition for a Glock is Condition-0, not Condition-1....


Trying to shoehorn the Glock into these codes just doesn't work no matter what number you try to associate it with as there's no hammer. 


> *Condition 0* - A round is in the chamber, the* hammer is cocked*, and the safety is off.
> 
> *Condition 1* - Also called "cocked and locked", this means that a round is in the chamber, *the hammer is cocked*, and the manual thumb safety is on.
> 
> *Condition 2 *- A round is in the chamber, the *hammer is uncocked.
> *
> *Condition 3* - There is no round in the chamber, the* hamme*hammer is uncocked*r is uncocked* but a fully loaded magazine is inserted in the mag well.
> 
> *Condition 4* - The chamber is empty, the *hammer is uncocked* and there is no magazine inserted in the mag well


The Glock DOES have a safety, albeit a useless one. The striker is not cocked and not de-cocked when the gun is loaded and ready to shoot. It's neither fish nor foul.

You have to take some leeway with the codes as originally presented. For ease of demonstration without getting into a half hour lecture of the conditions code, I just call it loaded chamber / empty chamber and leave the conditions out of it. In all honesty out side of Military service it really doesn't matter and arguing over what condition a Glock is just boils down to semantics but for all intents and purposes, most call it condition 1.


----------



## SouthernBoy

VAMarine said:


> Trying to shoehorn the Glock into these codes just doesn't work no matter what number you try to associate it with as there's no hammer.
> 
> *The Glock DOES have a safety, albeit a useless one*. The striker is not cocked and not de-cocked when the gun is loaded and ready to shoot. It's neither fish nor foul.
> 
> You have to take some leeway with the codes as originally presented. For ease of demonstration without getting into a half hour lecture of the conditions code, I just call it loaded chamber / empty chamber and leave the conditions out of it. In all honesty out side of Military service it really doesn't matter and arguing over what condition a Glock is just boils down to semantics but for all intents and purposes, most call it condition 1.


The Glock makes use of three active safeties, two of which are excellent. The trigger safety, which is a drop safety, is kinda useless in my opinion.


----------



## WilliamDahl

SouthernBoy said:


> The Glock makes use of three active safeties, two of which are excellent. The trigger safety, which is a drop safety, is kinda useless in my opinion.


Those are "safety features", not true "safeties". A safety is something that prevents the firearm from going bang if you pull the trigger. The Glock has no such device and as such, it's normal carry condition is Condition-0. It doesn't matter whether the hammer is internal or external, it is cocked (mostly) and if you pull the trigger, it goes bang. Some might consider it safer than a M1911 since the trigger pull is longer and heavier, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is still carried in Condition-0. Many DAO semi-autos and revolvers are also carried in Condition-0, but we don't have a problem with that because we tell ourselves that the even heavier and longer trigger pulls of these firearms makes up for the lack of a safety.


----------



## WilliamDahl

VAMarine said:


> Trying to shoehorn the Glock into these codes just doesn't work no matter what number you try to associate it with as there's no hammer.


Whether it has an external hammer or an internal mechanism that serves the purpose of one, it's the same with respect to the Condition levels. There is some sort of potential energy (spring or otherwise) that is waiting for the press of a trigger to be released. Of course, the pull of the trigger might also add extra energy into the equation as in the Glocks or the DAO semi-autos.

Since there is no safety that prevents it from firing if you pull the trigger, it is not possible for a Glock to be in Condition-1.


----------



## SouthernBoy

WilliamDahl said:


> Those are "safety features", not true "safeties". A safety is something that prevents the firearm from going bang if you pull the trigger. The Glock has no such device and as such, it's normal carry condition is Condition-0. It doesn't matter whether the hammer is internal or external, it is cocked (mostly) and if you pull the trigger, it goes bang. Some might consider it safer than a M1911 since the trigger pull is longer and heavier, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is still carried in Condition-0. Many DAO semi-autos and revolvers are also carried in Condition-0, but we don't have a problem with that because we tell ourselves that the even heavier and longer trigger pulls of these firearms makes up for the lack of a safety.


Never heard of them referred to as safety features. Can you show me where Glock uses this language? Yes, you pull the trigger and it goes bang. That is the beauty of the system. No muss, no fuss.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Quibble, quibble, quibble...

I can't think of anything more useless and time wasting than quibbling about ways to describe a practical situation.

_It doesn't matter what you call it._ The only thing that matters is that we agree upon what the terminology means, so communication can proceed intelligibly.

As *VAMarine* notes, people accept "condition one" as describing a Glock that is loaded and ready to fire. Generally, people accept "condition one" for any gun that is loaded and ready to fire, even though most fully-loaded TDA pistols are carried with their safeties in the "off" position.

"Condition zero" is an arcane neologism, not included in the original list of conditions. It serves only to confuse the issue.
And, BTW, the original list of conditions applied _only_ to the M1911.
(In the case of the 1911, "condition zero" precedes by a mere fraction of a second the sound of a round going off.)


----------



## VAMarine

Like I said, it's all arguing semantics. You say potato, someone else says squash.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

I'm anti-semantic.

Hmmm...
Potatoes and squash: They both mash well. Butter, salt, pepper. Sounds good to me!


----------



## bushrat

StainlessSteel215 said:


> For those who can legally carry, either open or (preferably) concealed......do you carry your Glock with one in the pipe?


Absolutely, ever since day one. Nary a problem.


----------



## SouthernBoy

To Steve and VAMarine;

Yep, yep, yep. That's why I rarely use the Condition terms when referring to anything other than a 1911, Browning H-Power, or similar design. I much prefer full battery or something along those lines. This discussion comes up from time to time on glocktalk.com. In fact there is one right now, unless it's been plugged. A while back there was a discussion, albeit argument, on that site about this very subject that went on for something like 39 pages. Crazy. When opinions turn to arguments, then it's time to call it quits.

How someone carries or trying to apply the Condition codes to a Glock, M&P, XD, or something of the like.... well, there may be better things to discuss and worry over.


----------



## WilliamDahl

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Quibble, quibble, quibble...
> 
> I can't think of anything more useless and time wasting than quibbling about ways to describe a practical situation.
> 
> _It doesn't matter what you call it._ The only thing that matters is that we agree upon what the terminology means, so communication can proceed intelligibly.
> 
> As *VAMarine* notes, people accept "condition one" as describing a Glock that is loaded and ready to fire. Generally, people accept "condition one" for any gun that is loaded and ready to fire, even though most fully-loaded TDA pistols are carried with their safeties in the "off" position.
> 
> "Condition zero" is an arcane neologism, not included in the original list of conditions. It serves only to confuse the issue.
> And, BTW, the original list of conditions applied _only_ to the M1911.
> (In the case of the 1911, "condition zero" precedes by a mere fraction of a second the sound of a round going off.)


We need to use terminology correctly so that we know that we are all talking about the same thing. The Condition Codes were created by Col. Jeff Cooper and considering the fact that Glock did not come around until around 1980, I'm pretty sure that Col. Cooper created the Condition Codes before then.

The problem that I see with people calling the Glock carry condition as Condition-1 is that is is incorrect and would lead some people to believe that it is as safe as a M1911 in Condition-1. A M1911 in Condition-1 will not fire. A Glock in it's carry condition WILL fire. As such, it does not make sense for us to say that the Glock is in Condition-1. If you pull the trigger and it goes bang without you having to do a separate action to deactivate a safety, then it is in Condition-0.

Terminology is important and we should use it correctly. We complain when people use the term "clips" when they should be saying "magazines". That is relatively harmless compared to mixing up the numbers on the Condition Codes since it could lead some people into a fault sense of security.


----------



## VAMarine

WilliamDahl said:


> We need to use terminology correctly so that we know that we are all talking about the same thing. The Condition Codes were created by Col. Jeff Cooper and considering the fact that Glock did not come around until around 1980, I'm pretty sure that Col. Cooper created the Condition Codes before then.
> 
> The problem that I see with people calling the Glock carry condition as Condition-1 is that is is incorrect and would lead some people to believe that it is as safe as a M1911 in Condition-1. A M1911 in Condition-1 will not fire. A Glock in it's carry condition WILL fire. As such, it does not make sense for us to say that the Glock is in Condition-1. If you pull the trigger and it goes bang without you having to do a separate action to deactivate a safety, then it is in Condition-0.
> 
> Terminology is important and we should use it correctly. We complain when people use the term "clips" when they should be saying "magazines". That is relatively harmless compared to mixing up the numbers on the Condition Codes since it could lead some people into a fault sense of security.


It only matters if you use the condition codes to begin with. Since leaving active duty I've never heard it used in a training or competition environment.

I'm all for leaving it behind ad they have no real relevance in civilian mode of carry. The codes in original format make no sense when applied outside of the 1911. Trying to apply them to firearms that simply don't have the relevant features is just to confusing for a lot of new shooters. Again most people accept a loaded Glock as condition 1. If your new purpose in life is to try and correct the masses on this, best of luck to you.


----------

