# So I was thinking...



## Double-Tap (Jun 20, 2008)

You carry concealed, someone decided it's your day to get your ass kicked.

#1, do you identify yourself as being armed, if so do you place your hand on the grip ready to draw?

#2, say nothing, fight on

#3. you get your ass kicked, guy finds your gun on you aster your knocked out and shoots you with it, or during the fight finds out you have one and now you have to fight over the gun

#4, draw down on the guy and call police, shooting him if he comes toward you.

you are armed, your weapon COULD be taken from you and used against you, so WHAT DO YOU DO?

I got to wondering after watching this video






if that guy was armed, theres a good chance the attacker would have taken his gun and killed him me thinks.

according to firearmstactical



> Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry
> 
> Your concealed handgun is for protection of life only.
> Draw it solely in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.
> ...


the person must be armed with a weapon, would the fear for your life (i.e their size and level of aggression) justify shooting them? Obviously the best advice is to not get into a situation, but society being as it is, **** happens and you don't want to NOT draw your weapon and instead be in a fight with someone who, while in the midst of it finds you have a gun and is now going for it....what do you do.

I am a State Peace Officer and can legally carry concealed but I don't, I should...yes I know the saying, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it...

by the way, hi everyone, I'm new :smt1099

edit: personally, if armed, I would have shot that guy, and I would probably be sitting in a cell since he wasn't armed


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## Double-Tap (Jun 20, 2008)

laws in the people's republic of california



> *Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body*
> 
> The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes
> 
> ...


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

so from what I gather it would be justified, if you had in fact believed that you would suffer great bodily injury.....still, what would you do if you were carrying concealed and someone just decided they were gonna fight you?


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

I do not go around looking for a fight. If someone attacks me, I will operate on the premise that they intend to do severe bodily harm and stop that threat.

Enough said.

:smt1099


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

You're in a fight that you did not instigate in any way and you're getting your ass kicked? Do you fear serious bodily injury and/or death may result if the beating continues? Yes? Then shoot.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

I think I'd have a hard time not getting involved if the guy next to me was getting his ass handed to him for no good reason. I wonder how everyone else in line enjoyed their dinner after they stood by and did nothing while that guy was getting beaten.

On the other hand, the guy who got beaten up probably should have been paying more attention to his surroundings... especially since he was purposely antagonizing that woman, weather she deserved it or not.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

It's best to have a variety of options.

1. The Nike Defense - "run awaaaaaaaaaay!"
2. Less-lethal weapons - I carry pepper spray.
3. Decent empty hand skills - I am deficient here, but have no inclination to spend years in a dojo.
4. Ability to use improvised weapons - a bottle, a pool stick, etc.

Self-defense isn't _just_ about guns.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

His mistake was making the call where she could hear him. If he would have left and started walking down the street and made the call, he wouldn't have got his hind end whooped. He could of returned after the police came. His poor judgement got him hurt and after the frist punch there was no way he could have used a gun. I would have left as soon as she started her tantrum, before the monster man made his entrance.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Baldy said:


> I would have left as soon as she started her tantrum, before the monster man made his entrance.


I get the distinct feeling she wouldn't have let it go if he left the building, and monster man was outside already. Who knows what would have happened to that guy if they weren't around other people. I am fairly certain that he would have gotten the boots put to him as well.

The guy that got hit was out of commission after the first hit. I bet he didn't know what day it was after the first hit. I would say that there was, by far, a definite threat of massive bodily harm and or death. That guy was huge! That being said, imagine trying to draw and fire even in the general direction after spinning yourself dizzy. Not gonna be effective, and then you've escalated the situation and will probably end up dead by your own gun. It's just not worth arguing with people sometimes because you never know who's got their back, and more times than not, you won't have anyone who's got your back.

Zhur


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

She went out and got him. If the guy with the cell phone would have kept it in his pocket and kept his mouth shut he might of been able to get out of there. Once outside he could of out run the Monster Man. The poor guy just didn't use his head.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

The idle look of the other fat blankity blanks is primary example of what's seriously wrong with our nation and culture at present.

Rather than helping the guy and stomping the living $%^* out of that guy, they stand there with their tongues in their mouths, with a look like:

"Oh great... I'm never gonna get this pizza.. that's just lovely.. I sure hope while he's stomping this other guy to death he doesn't accidentally throw an elbow my direction but I'll just watch in case and duck if I have to".

Anyone else find that as disgusting as I do???? 

Every other person in that room that didn't lift a finger to help that guy I think should have went ahead and kicked him a couple times themselves.

Bravo for those reeeeeal heroes helping out a fellow man.. Waiting their fat a### on their pizza's. :smt023 Way to go citizens.


Ok.. opinions on how that should have played out.. 

1. When there's a threat, don't stand there on a phone with no eyesight on the assailant (that was Mr Victim's fault). Infact, I wouldn't stick around at all in a crouded place where I couldn't get away.

2. If carrying, I'd be very very ready to draw as that was surely turning into a SHTF situation as I lived in Atlanta long enough to see how the delivery of attitude was escalating. Then if mouthy-mamma still brought in Mean Joe Green, I'd draw a bead and pop anyone of those other numb-nuts that decided to be hero and slap away the gun.... BUT, there's a bit of hind-sight there and I'm as ticked as those other not-so-innocent bystanders as the felon-assailants.

.... This is a great great real-world tactical study. Keep in mind, my above ideas are from a totally and completely untrained person making 1st suggestions.. and understand they may be completely wrong.. I'm wondering how wrong? :watching:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

zhurdan said:


> It's just not worth arguing with people sometimes because you never know who's got their back, and more times than not, you won't have anyone who's got your back.


Big +1 on that! :smt023


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

babs said:


> The idle look of the other fat blankity blanks is primary example of what's seriously wrong with our nation and culture at present.
> 
> Rather than helping the guy and stomping the living $%^* out of that guy, they stand there with their tongues in their mouths, with a look like:
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head. Even if they didn't want to get physically involved they should have done something. I didn't even see anyone there reaching for a phone to call 911.

The guy who got beat up wasn't smart though. He called up his buddy and I'm sure talked loudly enough to be overheard for the express purpose of winding that woman up. Too bad for him that she's a nutjob and has a 300 lb. nutjob of a boyfriend.


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## dovehunter (Dec 18, 2007)

This is just my opinion, if there is an immediate threat of violence/safety of myself/family/property, and there is no way to get out it, that person(s) will be meeting his/her/their maker sooner than they expected.

In Texas (where I live), the law had just been changed. If someone is breaking into you house, the occupant has the right to defend his property and do not have to exit through the back door. 

Here is true case, 1st guy accidentally cuts off the 2nd guy. 2nd guy comes back cuts off the 1st guy and blocks the 1st guy's path. 2nd guy gets out of his car, punches the driver side window of the 1st guy's car, the 1st guy has a CHL, shots the 2nd guy dead. DA referred it to the Grand Jury w/o any recommendation, Grand Jury did not file charges.

I guess it just depends where/what state you live in. If the above incident had happened in CA/NY/Boston/etc., the shooter would probably be in jail.


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## Double-Tap (Jun 20, 2008)

seemed like the woman had a "the world owes me" attitude and decided she didn't have to wait, or perhaps she was just asking a question about the wait and gave the impression she was cutting. Either way it gave me the perception that she was gonna do whatever she wanted and if anyone had anything to say about it she was gonna sic king kong on them... one guy just sat there drinking his soda watching it all go down, amazing.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

After reading the first post and watching the video I wonder what could have been done differently.

The guy on the cell phone could have left when this all began.

The store manager could have called the cops when the ABW got in his face.

Throwing the cellphone on the ground was the obvious trigger that set the 10 ton man mountain off. Obviously cellphone guy was not practicing situational awareness.

Store patrons could have risen to the victim's defense, but an obvious riot would ensue. And given the size of the monster, doubtful if sufficient resources were on hand to subdue.

The victim was out of it after the first hit. Subsequent hits from the 10-ton man mountain could have been deadly. Use of deadly force to restrain the attacker would be reasonable.

Similarly, the victim was out of it after the first hit. Had he drawn a CCW - and I think he had a legitimate fear for his life - he was in no shape to use it and more likely, would have it taken from him and used on him.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Double-Tap said:


> personally, if armed, I would have shot that guy


I agree, I would not take a beating like that especially if I was armed.



Double-Tap said:


> I would probably be sitting in a cell since he wasn't armed


What is the difference for a LEO when it comes to shooting an attacker in self defense whether you are in uniform or in street clothes?


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## Dsig1 (Dec 23, 2007)

After viewing this a few times, there are other observations here.

We never hear what the guy on the phone is saying about her. He might have said some pretty bad stuff and continued doing so, audibly so others could hear. That might be a reason others didn't jump to his defense, they may have figured he started and deserved it. By slamming down the phone and coming forward, he was the initial aggressor. 

Also, the woman didn't exactly cut into line and take a spot. It looks like she may have been looking to see if a takeout order was ready. I do that all the time. 

I do agree that after hit #1 someone should have jumped in and moved Mr. Cell Phone out of the way and another person could have intercepted the Big Guy. On the other hand, I worked in Akron Ohio as a consultant for three years. The racial makeup in the pizza shop is in no way indicative of the racial makeup outside of that pizza shop so the other customers could have been wary of turning the whole thing into an all out riot.

As for a gun, the cell phone guy would only have had it taken away and used on him after the first hit. 

This goes back to a former thread on the responsibility of CC and the maturity level and awareness of one's surroundings.


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## Double-Tap (Jun 20, 2008)

unpecador said:


> What is the difference for a LEO when it comes to shooting an attacker in self defense whether you are in uniform or in street clothes?


depends on your department, For police officers
there is likely no difference if you were to identify yourself as such. I am a state peace officer (corrections), we have 24/7 peace officer status (penal code) but our peace officer authority is on-duty only... my department (california department of corrections) would probably suspend you and then try and prove you were the attacker, they have this inmate-criminal-loving mentality....only in california are the bad guys the good guys. :smt1099


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## Arcus (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> It's best to have a variety of options.
> 
> 1. The Nike Defense - "run awaaaaaaaaaay!"
> 2. Less-lethal weapons - I carry pepper spray.
> ...


IF you're interested in augmenting #3 & #4 there's a regional training center for Krav Maga there in Phoenix, http://www.reactdefense.com/... or you could just give me the FHF ribbing....

I think they expect students to be close to an intermediate level within 3-4 months given consistent class attendance. At that point they begin to spend some time on weapon defense. If you are LE or military (at least here in Denver), they'll teach weapon retention techniques not shown to us civilians.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I've given some thought to Krav Maga, actually. It's practical, and anyway my wife is Jewish. 

However, I am rather short on time in the evenings, and perpetually short on money. (See above about Jewish wife.) :mrgreen:

I work on the Nike Defense three mornings a week, though!


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## funkypunk97 (Aug 2, 2007)

This is something I've given a lot of thought about.

As someone who has never carried (still waiting for my permit) but has studied martial arts most of my life, I've thought what I would do in that position.

And as was pointed out in the original post I think you HAVE to either draw, or make it very clear to your attacker that you WILL draw....

I always feel bad for police when things get physical, because if the attacker gets their gun they could die....it is a fine line to have to balance...

As I said, I've studies martial arts, I can fight and take care of myself, but I am not so stupid as to think an attacker might not beat me and get my gun. Not only would I not want it used on me, but I would not want them taking it and committing more crime. It is one thing if I get killed with my own gun, I chose to carry..... but if they took my gun and killed an innocent person that would be even worse.....

With that said, I think if you are carrying you have to make your attacker aware before things escalate. If you have to draw it to prove it, so be it. But I think by making it known, the attacker may just walk away.

One interesting story I heard was of a man in Ohio (I think) was threatened by another man in a mall parking lot, he pulled out his gun and handed it to his wife (also licensed to carry) said something to the effect of "here take this so no one gets killed" and challenged the punk back. Just the sight of him pulling out his gun and handing it off ended the confrontation.....not something I would want to do but it makes the point that just the sight of a gun will generally diffuse things.....

Obviously walking away is still the best option, and I will take that rode whenever possible.


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## funkypunk97 (Aug 2, 2007)

Dsig1 said:


> After viewing this a few times, there are other observations here.
> 
> We never hear what the guy on the phone is saying about her. He might have said some pretty bad stuff and continued doing so, audibly so others could hear. That might be a reason others didn't jump to his defense, they may have figured he started and deserved it. By slamming down the phone and coming forward, he was the initial aggressor.
> 
> ...


Good point.... we don't know what he said or is saying... It must have been bad enough to get her so riled up...... still she escalated it over words....

Mr Cell phone should have just said he was sorry or something, try and diffuse the issue but his handling of it was horrible.....just clueless, horrible situational awareness as others have pointed out.....

Unfortunately we've created a society where stepping in to help can get you killed, or sued, or even investigated...... it is a risk that people seem unwilling to take anymore in America.....

You cannot just step in and stop a fight anymore without getting into a fight yourself. Years ago the issue diffused between the two original combatants and usually 3rd man in ended the fight....... now as was pointed out, everyone is in "riot mode" and a step in is viewed as escalation to give advantage to one fight or another, rather then being viewed as an attempt for peace......

America is no Utopia, sadly it is violent. If it wasn't none of us would be here talking about CCW to protect our families....... And people have become shockingly indifferent to helping those in trouble.


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## bdp2000 (Apr 22, 2008)

First of all, Dsig1 makes a great point about our assumptions. We do not know what cellphone guy actually sait to inflame the woman so much. But on the other hand, whatever it was he said obviously did not warrant a face breaking beating as was the result.

Now the question I have been asking myself is not what he should have done, but what about the others.

If you were carrying and saw this guy mere feet from yopu getting pummeled to unconsciousness, what would you do?

Major thing to consider, That is a VERY small room.


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