# LCP in 9mm: Why not??



## 45ACP-Reedie (Sep 21, 2009)

Alright, I have a question for everyone: I've heard people say that the LCP platform could obviously never handle the 9mm round. I disagree, but I'm not sure I fully understand the issue. Here's what I've learned: 

(Sorry for the switching between metric and English - 1mm = ~0.04")

The difference in length between 9mm and .380 is 1.8mm. In the overall length of the 2.75" barrel, I think this is negligible (same goes for the extra grip length that would be needed for 9x19 rounds instead of 9x17 rounds).

The difference in width at the base of the brass (because 9mm is tapered) is 0.43mm. In the overall width of the gun (0.82" = 20.82mm), this seems to be negligible.

The maximum chamber pressure rated by SAAMI for .380 is 21,500psi, whereas 9mm is rated at about 35,000psi. This is a significant difference, and results in a bullet with about 40% more kinetic energy out of the 9mm. Let's explore this, too:

It seems to me that dealing with more kinetic energy being imparted to the slide is just a matter of having stiffer springs, and a shooter who's willing to take the punishment of that energy on the tiny LCP grip. Fine - seems doable.

I also figured that maybe the chamber would need to be thicker to hold the pressure. However, the 9mm Kel Tec PF9 is only 0.88" wide - only 0.03" wider on each side of the chamber (if the extra width is in the chamber) than the LCP. This suggests that a 9mm can be made just as slim as the LCP.

So, can anyone tell me why the LCP couldn't be made in 9mm? It's not very obvious to me.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

It probably could be beefed up enough to fire 9mm , but it'd be a real kicker - it jumps enough with the .380.

I certainly am not from Ruger, but my family owns 5 LCP's amoung us (and we all love them and carry them) and the reason we bought them was looks / weight / concealability / price (not necessarily in that order).

This little gun is very nice looking compared to it's competition (just my personal opinion) and it crazy how light it is and how easy it is to carry. Making it a 9mm might change all that.

Just my .02 worth.

:smt1099


.


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## dosborn (Apr 17, 2009)

I have been thinking the same about the Sig P232. Although it is a different animal, I think it could be done.

I say get a PM9. It's the closest thing I can think of.


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## 45ACP-Reedie (Sep 21, 2009)

Yeah, I'm sure the PF9 is just fine and an excellent carry gun, especially in its price range. I'm just frustrated with the LCP lacking the firepower of 9mm. I'm considering buying an LCP only as a deep-concealment gun. I normally carry a Detonics .45 (Officer's model 1911, basically). However, the capability of the LCP to be carried with the IWB/pocket clip (no holster) and with the laser sight really appeals to me for deep concealment. For that purpose, the PF9 simply isn't the best because it isn't the smallest (and doesn't have the pocket clip option).

Keep posting!


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## beretta-neo (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes - the PM9 is the smallest polymer 9mm . Obviously, there must be some reason that they cannot be made smaller and actually be reliable.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

My P3AT kicks like a mule for such a little gun. Making the LCP/P3AT a 9mm would make it unbearable to shoot, IMHO.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

45ACP-Reedie said:


> Yeah, I'm sure the PF9 is just fine and an excellent carry gun, especially in its price range. I'm just frustrated with the LCP lacking the firepower of 9mm. I'm considering buying an LCP only as a deep-concealment gun. I normally carry a Detonics .45 (Officer's model 1911, basically). However, the capability of the LCP to be carried with the IWB/pocket clip (no holster) and with the laser sight really appeals to me for deep concealment. For that purpose, the PF9 simply isn't the best because it isn't the smallest (and doesn't have the pocket clip option).
> 
> Keep posting!


I have a Kahr CW9 with a CT laser on the trigger gaurd that I carry everyday to my office in an IWB tuckable holster and no one in my office has a clue I am carrying a weapon. It is a great gun, light weight, makes holes exactly where it is pointed, and feeds every bullet I have ever put in the magazine. I have it on right now as I take a short time out from my tasks to read a little gun info. It is not a total pocket gun it is 5.9" long 4.45 " high and .9" thick.holds 8 - 9mm bullets when one is in the pipe. It can be had for 400 bucks and the CT laser can be had on line for 140 bucks. This is a quality weapon for a very good price. If Ruger can do this good for this money that would be very cool. I own a few Rugers no LCP's. Truthfully I would sell a Kel Tec any one of them, even if I won one before I would ever own it. Without the laser it is invisible when carried like I do....with the laser it is well....invisible to the untrained eye. the pocket clip option is not available on the Kahr as far as I know however.

RCG


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## oldguy (Apr 1, 2010)

*elbow deep hurt*

The recoil from my LCP is about all I want from a gun this small. I had a taurus 709 slim 9mm and traded it in on a PPK/S .380 and then bought a LCP. I like them both. But 9mm in a LCP frame, no way. The Taurus was too radical for me. I guess it could be beefed up to handle the 9mm, but why? You have to practice sometime.


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## HadEmAll (Dec 27, 2007)

I agree if a pistol the size of the LCP could handle the 9mm, it would have already been done. Especially by Ruger, who makes things stout. 

Now I think the LCR in 9mm would be a fantastic pistol. Those full moon clips make a really quick reload.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

I've been carrying a LCP for years in my front pocket in a DeSantis Nemesis Holster.

I just bought a Kel-Tec P11 in 9 MM and a DeSantis Nemesis holster for it.










It fits in my same front pocket - in loose pants, but it is to big to carry in Jeans.

My point is that it is slightly larger than my LCP.

I had to learn to shoot it - it really kicks - more than the LCP.

I was getting "stove-pipes in my first few rounds .:anim_lol:

It wasn't the gun - it kicked enough (snappy) that I was limp wristing it and causing the stove-pipes. 

As I tightened my grip - it shot perfectly.

Great gun, but I wouldn't want a 9 mm LCP sized gun.

jmho

:smt1099


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## twodogs (Oct 15, 2007)

I am not sure that I want the LCP to be made as a 9mm, but I would like to see Ruger clone the PF9. It seems like a realistic option since they already cloned the 3AT. I like the LCP much better than the 3AT for the same reasons as everybody else - fit & finish. 

The PF9 sells very well. IMO, it has a much better trigger than the P11. It's overall weight is a bit lighter than the P11, although you lose a few rounds. If Ruger were to make the "LC9", I would imagine it could sell for $325 - 350 (based on the 3AT/LCP comparison & current PF9 prices). 

To me, it would be the ultimate CCW - light, single-stack, 9mm, affordable. All we need is Ruger to make it!


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## Kharuger (Jun 19, 2010)

LCP-sized 9MM would have to be a little heavier (and maybe even 5+1?)... Thing is, you could carry an extended mag (say... 8-9 rds...esp. with a form-fit matching lower half) in your pocket which would give you some real firepower and a better handle for extra-tough situations. Some company will probably do it eventually. Seems like a big seller if possible.


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## smokestakz (Jul 29, 2010)

not only would the LCP kick a lot harder, but loading a 9mm vs. a 380 would lose a lot of velocity. yes its the same width but alot shorter in comparison to the 9mm. the 9mm would need a longer barrel to gain it's velocity and accuracy...


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

Todd said:


> My P3AT kicks like a mule for such a little gun. Making the LCP/P3AT a 9mm would make it unbearable to shoot, IMHO.


I agree. I don't find the LCP painful but the PF9 which is not much larger was too harsh for me to handle and answered the question of how small and light is too small and light. Subjective I know but I got my answer. By comparison the Kahr PM9 and Walther PPS are both pleasant and easy for me to shoot. A scaled up version of the LCP/P3AT, perhaps a tad larger and heavier than the PF9 would intrigue me. P11 as suggested is likely the closest existing design to what OP is looking for although it is a double stack. Maybe Ruger will copy and refine the P11 at some point.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

beretta-neo said:


> Yes - the PM9 is the smallest polymer 9mm . Obviously, there must be some reason that they cannot be made smaller and actually be reliable.


I think the Rohrbaugh is smaller.

Chamber pressures may require beefier pieces and more steel and less plastic or aluminum.


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## clarke9mm (Sep 27, 2010)

*Reason for purchase...*



dondavis3 said:


> I certainly am not from Ruger, but my family owns 5 LCP's amoung us (and we all love them and carry them) and the reason we bought them was looks / weight / concealability / price (not necessarily in that order).
> 
> .


Personally, I think *reliability* is the primary reason for choosing a firearm... followed by *ability to present* and *conceal ability* are primary for me.

Whatever you carry - however you carry - must be dictated by situations of the worst type... most notably... personal/up close confrontation.... and as a result - you want to have a chance. Personally, some carry for multiple situations - and carry more than one firearm. My 2 cents.

The LCPs that I have had - have performed flawlessly. One of them has 1500+ rounds thru it - not a hiccup. Outside of 20 feet - it is marginal at best. But, that's not it's purpose. It's a 'get off me gun' ...so realistically 10 feet and in - is where it will be used.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

+1 clarke9mm

Your right reliability is at the top.

But I've owned and shot Ruger products for years and I knew that it would be reliable. :smt082

:smt1099


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## clarke9mm (Sep 27, 2010)

dondavis3 said:


> +1 clarke9mm
> 
> Your right reliability is at the top.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I've owned (and own) all kinds of Ruger firearms... and I have NEVER been disappointed.

The Ruger LCP is so superior (IMO) to the Kel Tec and DB380... it isn't funny.


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## EliWolfe (Nov 20, 2010)

The gun manufacturers have been trying this smaller lighter gun bigger/hotter bullet equation for years now. (Power vs. weight vs. size vs. capacity.) And as the ammo continues to improve, we may be reaching a point where the .380 new stuff equals some 9mm old stuff. As long as the physics are in play, at least for the near future I would go with the KAHR PM9 and find a way to conceal it (plenty of options). It's kind of like why the J-frame 38+Ps continue to sell even though they are bigger than the little .380s. A 442 is easy to hide, snag free, stone reliable and the .38 rounds have gotten increasingly better. And yes, I do know a guy who carries two snubbies for the 10 rounds available. I have fired the J frame Smith Scandium with .357 mag. Just really not controllable for me. Super light gun, super hot round, no fun (lots of guys end up using the hot .38s instead for just that reason). Right now the .380s are hot and I have heard good things about the Ruger from buds who have them. I am sure it won't be too awful long before the new "wondernine" appears. But don't look for that until they've milked the current .380 market dry!
Eli...as always shot placement rules!


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## Lateck (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree that the LCP would be a handful in 9mm. 
But wait and look at the new SIG P-290.... It will be 5.5" long vis the 5.16" of the LCP
and 3.9" tall vis 3.6" of the LCP. BUT it will weigh more than double... 20.5 oz (with mag) vis 9.4 oz.
(all info from the two respective Webb sites). The 290 will be smaller then the Kel-Tec P11 :mrgreen:

So there may be some new smaller 9mm's......

Lateck,


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## EliWolfe (Nov 20, 2010)

Lateck said:


> BUT it will weigh more than double... 20.5 oz (with mag) vis 9.4 oz.
> (all info from the two respective Websites).


And there's the rub. The extra weight will tame the recoil and make for a more controllable pistol, but folks will still complain about that size/weight difference. Advances in ammo design (lower recoil, higher performance) and handgun design (recoil reducing systems) will eventually get us to the magic "mouse" gun the marketplace seems to crave, a .380 size/weight 9mm pocket pistol! Then of course, they'll want it in .45 ACP to be truly satisfied. 
Eli


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't know the dimensions for the Ruger LCP, but those for the Kel-Tec P3AT are 5.2" by 3.5". I have to assume that the LCP is pretty similar.
The Rohrbaugh 9mm is 5.2" by 3.7".
(*Eli*: My AMT .45 Backup is six inches by four inches.)

Making 'em smaller makes 'em expensive to design, engineer, and manufacture. Therefore you will never find a 9mm the size of the LCP at a price like the LCP's.
There already is the Rohrbaugh, a 9mm the size of the LCP, and its very high price reflects the difficulty of making it, and assuring that it will work reliably.
QED


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## EliWolfe (Nov 20, 2010)

[QUOTE
(*Eli*: My AMT .45 Backup is six inches by four inches.)
QED[/QUOTE]

Yessir the ultimate pocket rocket I've seen so far.
Eli


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I don't know the dimensions for the Ruger LCP, but those for the Kel-Tec P3AT are 5.2" by 3.5". I have to assume that the LCP is pretty similar.
> The Rohrbaugh 9mm is 5.2" by 3.7".
> (*Eli*: My AMT .45 Backup is six inches by four inches.)...
> 
> QED


Is this reliable? It is an appealing package but I've read some appalling stories about feed and firing malfunctions.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Packard said:


> Is this reliable? It is an appealing package but I've read some appalling stories about feed and firing malfunctions.


I admit to having done some amount of kitchen-table gunsmithing on my AMT .45 Backup. I mostly polished surfaces which rub against one-another, polished the front surface of its trigger, and polished its feed ramp and chamber.
The gun is magazine sensitive. Of the three magazines I have, two are dead-on reliable, and one is for practice only. It's a feed-lip issue, and errant magazines can be tuned-up by a gunsmith who is knowledgeable about Government Model semi-autos.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

45ACP-Reedie said:


> Alright, I have a question for everyone: I've heard people say that the LCP platform could obviously never handle the 9mm round. I disagree, but I'm not sure I fully understand the issue. . . . So, can anyone tell me why the LCP couldn't be made in 9mm? It's not very obvious to me.


In reading all the replies, I didn't see "this item".
Blowback vs. locked breech design.

Wouldn't a blowback in 9mm have a REALLY stiff spring, and be REALLY hard to chamber a round ?
( see the Beretta Tomcat .32 Auto tilt-barrel for an attempt to solve the "spring problem" ).

Wouldn't a locked breech design of some kind be a nasty design problem ?
( see the REALLY expensive Rohrbaugh "solution" ).

Oops, I forgot. I should really research "stuff" before commenting. :mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Since the OP specified use of the LCP platform, the proposed 9mm version would be a locked-breech design, just like the LCP.


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## RiverDog (Dec 7, 2010)

Why not just get the LCR?

Totally reliable. Light wight; small. .38 +P or .357 mag. (Impossible to jam.) 

Not one for the range, but what do you care?

That is starting to make more and more sense to me.


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## RiverDog (Dec 7, 2010)

Why not just get the LCR?

Totally reliable. Light wight; small. .38 +P or .357 mag. (Impossible to jam.) 

Not one for the range, but who cares? 

That is starting to make more and more sense to me.


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## bayhawk2 (Sep 25, 2010)

I think making a little larger LCP in whatever caliber would defeat
the whole concept of the LCP.I carry it in an Active Pro Gear back
pocket holster.It fits just right.Looks like a billfold in my back pocket.
(jeans).Any larger,and I'd have to go another route.I know the 9 M.M.
is much more in the like of self defence.I do however,use S/D loads
in my LCP.I think if the time came?Excluding a "high on heroin"junkie?"
I can honestly say"Say hello to my little friend".


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## 813Cholo (Jan 19, 2011)

LC9 Next Month!!


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