# Planning the handload



## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

Dear all,

I am trying to figure out how to properly plan my handloads.

It's going to be .38 special. Brass ready and polished.

Now, assuming I'll be using vithavuori powder, I'll look up some source like handloads.com 

First thing, after selecting the round caliber, the menu asks me for the bullet weight.

Now, I noticed the rounds I bought at the range are 158 gr. 
The menu though is listing weights ranging from 110 to 180 gr.

Should I stick to the 158 gr. or what?
I need those rounds for sheer paper punching, presently.

Next, I get a list of bullet brands, OK, I'm going to choose according to availability, I saw only OAL varies, according to bullet shape, probably.

Now, I see I have a choice of 3 powder types, affecting only velocity, apparently.

My questions:

Is it OK to start with a 158 gr, bullet or are there better choices?

which type of powder should I choose among the ones listed ( I take it they are different burning velocities)

should I rigorously start with the minimum powder weight suggested?

Last, what if my bullet brand (depending on local availability) is not among the ones listed (unles they are codes, I can only see FP and HP in my list).

ThanX for your patience


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

It is just like bakeing a cake,,,Follow the direction to the letter. If you have 158 grain wad cutter or lead bullets then you need to follow the powder type and weight EXACTLY....no fudgeing! You can safely use formulas for that weight and type of bullet ONLY! You can safely substitute brand of bullets but not weight on either the weight of the bullets or powder. Start your powder charges at or just above the recomended starting charge and work from there. Never exceed the maximum recomended charge. Make up a few rounds and try them. With what you are doing I'd look for the charge that gives you the best groups on paper and that will be your load. I would do a run of 12 first just to check for function in your gun. I'd then do a larger run of say 50 to see how they punch paper and adjust from there. Remember that consistency in your loading will bring with it better shot to shot accuracy. It is a good idea to check your powder charges pretty frequently at first to make sure they are close to the ideal weight you are shooting for. Under charging can be just as dangerous as over charging. Because you are using a progressive press your best bet is to run one bullet at a time through the complete process before you load the machine up and have all the stations working all at once. You are going to need to adjust each station and learn how it works so you have a full understanding of the complete process.
Try to set your expander so it is just enough that the bullet just barely clears the brass and set your bullets just deep enough that the crimp will be in the crimping groove of the bullet and then set the crimp so it looks like a factory crimp. Follow the directions that came with your press for setting up the dies and I think you will be fine. There are also some good video's on the Lee website that cover this.

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/HelpVideos/video.html


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

The old standards as I understand it for .38Spl and .357 are 125 Grain SJFP (semi jacketed flat point), 125 grain SJHP, 158 Grain SJFP, or 158 Grain SJHP.

Looking at the Vihta Vuori chart (get it here: http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/index.php ) The closest to those "standard" bullets are the Ranier 125 Grain and 158 Grain listings. These are plated bullets but are what I have been using as a basis for my reloads. I have been using Zero brand SJFP and SJHP's of these weights.

I don't recall what gun you are using however if it is .357 rated and you are loading to .38SPL. levels you are in a relatively safe area.

What ever gun you have you should start with a minimum powder charge per chart for the bullet type/weight, no less than the overall length specified and a standard small pistol primer, not magnum.

I would start with either 125 Grain SJFP or Plated bullet with 5.3 grains VihtaVuori N340 powder at 1.437 OAL.

or

158 Grain SJFP or plated bullet with 5.0 Grains of Vihta Vuori N340 powder at 1.476 OAL.

These loads are light per the chart and should be a good starting point. N340 has worked well for me in .40 S&W, 9MM .38SPL and .357 loads and I expect will work well for you. Other people will have their favorites of course but I like Vihta Vuori.

After you feel a bit more comfortable with what you are doing you can branch out a bit from what you do right now.

If your gun is rated .357, you are using .357 Brass and want to load to .38SPL power levels that is ok but the OAL will need to be longer (.357 chart) and you may need an additional 1/10 grain or so to achieve equal velocity.

I use .357 Cases rather than .38's for light and heavy loads. As long as I am using the same bullet I don't have to readjust my dies. The guns cylinder is easier to clean also.

If your bullets have a cannelure ring, set overall length to place the case crimp in the cannelure. As long as you are at the low end of powder charge listing, minor adjustment of OAL is OK.

Good luck and enjoy.

:smt1099


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

TOF,
great tip using underloaded .357 brass to avoid changing the settings of the press.

Now I have hundreds of .38 sp cases, so I'm using them until consummation (planned at the end of the year) then I'll follow your suggestion to fire and reload exclusively .357 brass.

In the meanwhile I'll also buy a good cleaning set for the cylinder.

The gun I'm goign to buy is a .375, so I'm relieved I can err slightly in excess remaining in the safe region.

One thing I do not understand fully:

Which is usually the factor which governs the choice of bullet weight? 125versus 158 and so on?


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

mccoy said:


> TOF,
> great tip using underloaded .357 brass to avoid changing the settings of the press.
> 
> Now I have hundreds of .38 sp cases, so I'm using them until consummation (planned at the end of the year) then I'll follow your suggestion to fire and reload exclusively .357 brass.
> ...


For punching paper bullet weight is not important except in regard to absolute accuracy. Twist of rifling, bullet weight, velocity, bullet shape etc. all combine to impact absolute accuracy. From a practical perspective weight is not important. Your ability to hold on target will have significantly more impact than bullet weight.

For a hunting situation bullet weight becomes more important. Bigger thicker skinned animals require bigger/heavier bullets to take them down.

The combination of bullet weight and velocity will have definite impact on point of impact (POI) vs. point of aim (POA)

If your gun has adjustable sights you can tune them to whatever ammo you wish to use. If you have fixed sights you have to either modify, typicaly file, them to bring POI and POA together or use different bullet weight and velocity.

Revolvers typicaly hit higher with heavier bullets as they are slower therefore in the barrel longer. Recoil begins with the bullet still in the barrel therefore more barrel time generaly means higher POI plus heavier bullets equal greater recoil.

Barrel time also impacts windage as the gun tries to twist in your hand due to the twist of rifling which can throw you off left/right and up/down.

Now that you are reloading you have the ability to tune your bullets to impact the target closer to where you wish.

Once you get rolling build a few bullets with different powder charges (all within chart levels) plus both 125 Gr. and 158 grain bullets. You will find quickly how to tune your cartridges.

You will ultimately want/need a chronograph so you can measure true velocity of your loads. It will help you stay safe and tune your loads to a specific velocity.

If you don't yet have reloading manuals get one or two or more. I like the LEE manual.

Have fun and keep the questions rolling. I need something to keep me busy while the snow and mud is with us.

:smt1099


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

Loved your illustration, TOF, as a matter of fact now I'm starting to grasp the issue.

Today I've stopped off the gunshop, and, due to local range restrictions (they do not allow jacketed bullets) and shop availability I discovered I had only one choice left: 158 gr. Semi Wad Cutters.

I bought the last box left of'em. So I'm necessarily going to start with these :










Any specific tips related to such 158 gr hard-cast SWC's?

I bought a mechanical scale as well.

I'll buy the primers together with the powder. They told me Vitha Vuori is not a problem. The press is not ready yet. I'll have to order a coupla manuals, don't know if they are available here in Italy.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Those will work mccoy. I have 500 that look just like them except for red wax.

The load for 158 grain bullets listed a couple of posts back should be a good starting point for you. Overall length will be dictated by the cannelure ring. The cannelure ring is the taperd indentation above the blue wax ring. Set bullet depth such that the case crimp is positioned just below the top of this ring. Start with 5.0 grains of N340, which is right at the bottom end of the charge specs. You should end up with a soft shooter that is as safe as they come. Once you have a bit more experience you can play around with other loads.

You may have mentioned it before but what gun have you decided on?

The SWC is a good round for shooting paper but round nose bullets are a bit easier to insert in the cylinder fast. Later, should you enter competition that requires a rapid reload, you will want to obtain round nose. That is probably a distance away though.

There is a picture running around the internet of a thumb that was severly damaged by an individual holding his revolver incorrectly. Perhaps you have seen it but in case not let me tell you about it. Revolvers exhaust high velocity, high temperature gas and powder particles from the area between rear of barrel and front of cylinder. If part of your hand, most commonly thumb, is in line with this jet of gas it just might be removed from your hand. I don't want that to happen to you or anybody else. Do not position your support hand any farther forward than your trigger finger and you will not incurr that type injury.

Some people that shoot Semi Auto Pistols use a grip that places the support hand relatively far forward. That is ok for an auto but can be devestating when shooting a revolver. Specialy when shooting the big boomers.

Have fun but stay safe.

:smt1099


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

If all you are allowed is lead bullets I'd order up a Lee bullet mold and make your own. You can get your lead from tire stores and garages that do tires. Wheel weights for balancing tires are a great source of lead. Here is a link to some bullet molds:
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=2&Categoryid=9247&categorystring=685***8657***

Since you are working with lead bullets pay attention to the bore of your gun for signs of lead build up. The more powerful your loads are the more likely you will have a leading problem.
By the way http://www.midwayusa.com/ is an excellent place to find out what is available so check them out even if you find the same stuff locally.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

gmaske is correct regarding potential leading. I don't think you will have much of a problem with the load discussed so far as velocity should be relatively low. Are your bullets called "Hard Cast" and what brand are they?

I chronographed some 158 grain Bushwacker Hard Cast SWC's using magnum cases last week out of my Ruger GP100 4". They were loaded with 5.7 grains N340 and produced a velocity of 912 FPS. The load we have been discussing, 5 grains in a .38Spl case, will probably yield around 850 FPS in my gun

Although it will be individual barrel dependant to some degree, leading with Hard Cast bullets doesn't normaly become a problem till you are certainly above 1000 FPS. Fast hot burning powders can aggravate the problem also. N340 is relatively slow.

You will not want to load them to full .357 Magnum velocities.

I shot some SJFP's after the 100 or so Hard Cast and when I got home there was no obvious leading. It cleaned up as if all I had used was copper clad.

:smt1099


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

TOF, 
I tried to push the bullet into an empty case, not resized. It will naturally stop just above the cannelure ring. Couldn't pull it out by hands. Is it as easy like that?

Today I called the local police station, they say next week they'll issue my licence to possess fireweapons. I'll go straight and buy a S&W 627-PC 8 times, a .357 mag revolver on an N-frame, pretty heavy and stable gun, with a 5" barrel and an underlug. 
I'll have to take a day off to travel to another city, it's not available here nor in the vicinities.

The bullet's brand is 'dynamicbullets', an Italian manufacturer:

www.dynamicbullets.it

They say it's hardcast but I'll ask the gunshop guys, I'd just hate to spread lead inside my gun's barrel, especially if a brand new one.

Competition is a little away. I saw no marksmen in the range, but I'd like to make it to tight groupings in slow fire before starting to try rapid fire. It may take a few months.

I saw the thumb's image. Chilling. As the reconstruction goes, the guy was probably handling the revolver like a gauge, supporting hand in a very unconventional grip. It's very educational anyway.

Gmaske, is molding your own bullets worth the extra savings? Sure they are no cheap, coming at 25.50 Euro$ the box of 500. If i'll have time I might give it a try later on, when i'll be skilled in reloading.

Leading again: Mmmmm...., I'd like to make sure to avoid that prob. TOF, your suggestion sounds.... sound, keeping a few plated rounds to shoot at the end of session. Again, I'll ask the gunshop guys if they'll ever had negative feedback on those SWC's.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

mccoy,
I took a look at your bullet source. It was immediately obvious that your English is considerably better than my Italian so I must accept your bullets as "Hard Cast". I envy your language skills.

The Lee Pro 1000 has 3 die positions as follow:

1. Deprime and size

2. Powder drop and neck flare

3. Bullet insertion/seating and crimp.

When you deprime and size you will no longer be able to push a bullet in place by hand as the case will be smaller in diameter.

If you follow my reccomendation of priming independant of loading powder and bullet the first die (prime/size) will be removed before powder/bullets are loaded. You might want to get an extra die plate so you don't have to remove and reinstall/adjust each time.

When the primed case arrives at the powder station the case is raised up into the powder/flaring die. Powder will drop through a funnel within the die and at the end of the stroke the funnel will expand the case neck (flare). The flare will allow you to place a bullet in the case mouth but you will not be able to push it up to the cannelure by hand as you can now. You need enough flare that lead shaving does not occer but no more. The blue wax will get where you don't want it but that is normal for me at least.

The final die will press the bullet to the depth (seating) you adjust it for and during the last few thousandths of an inch travel force the case to crimp the bullet.

It will be necessary to run several cases and bullets thru the bullet seating and crimping die to finalize your setup. The instruction sheet will advise you how. What I do is refrain from loading powder into the hopper till this die is set. I then use an inertia bullet puller (Looks like a hammer) to dissassemble the test cases. I might also suggest that after loading powder remove the charged case and dump the powder back in the hopper for the first two or three cycles then take some samples and weigh them.

I rub some powdered graphite on the powder disk which helps the seal and reduces static electrical charges if that is a problem.

My comment about shooting copper after lead was not intended to indicate that was a requirement. What I intended to convey is that if there was a lead deposit, it was minimal and should be relatively easy to remove. I looked in my barrel several times during the shoot to evaluate leading and did not see any obvious deposits. 

Your bullet source evidently produces copper plated bullets. Does your range not allow those to be used? They are typicaly made with softer lead and, I don't believe they penetrate like "Hard Ball" otherwise called FMJ/jacketed which has a much thicker copper layer. Ranges in the US that I have heard dissallow copper is because of fear the bullets will pass through their backstop.

You might want to ask for clarification at the Range.

If you can shoot plated and find that you have a leading problem just switch to plated. I don't think you need to worry though.

You have in my opinion picked a very good revolver. You are going to enjoy this new game a bunch once you get past all that paperwork.


:smt1099


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

mccoy said:


> Gmaske, is molding your own bullets worth the extra savings? Sure they are no cheap, coming at 25.50 Euro$ the box of 500. If i'll have time I might give it a try later on, when i'll be skilled in reloading.


You might talk to a few places were you might get the used wheel weights. If they will gladly give them to you free then you are going to save big time once you off set the cost of the mold. If they have to pay to get rid of that nasty non-ecofriendly lead you will end up with more than you can use.


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

TOF,
I were American I wouldn't worry about Italian language, I'd just worry about shooting and reloading and giving proper advise to poor ignorant Italians... Let's leave the study of the Italian to the opera singers...:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

kidding aside, American is the international language for nearly everything now, especially so for the world of weapons & ammo. So, since I'm entering your realm, it is more than reasonable that I speak your language, not the other way around.

Actually, I went back to the Italian bullets manufacturer, and the 'hard cast' word in not evident, I had to open the pricelist in .pdf to be able to see it.

That manufacturer does not produce copper plated bullets in .38sp/.357mag. That's not a problem though, it's enough to order them. I had necessarily to take that brand and type since it was the last box in 38/357on the shelves, and we have only two gunshops in town. It is not like the USA where you can find reloading items at the wal-mart!!

Copper plated is allowed in the local range, FMJ ain't, probably for the reason you cite.

If copper plated is less troublesome I'll make sure to find a manufacturer producing them. I'd like round nose, my only doubt being that it appears not to have any reference as the cannelure ring in SWC (is that an advantage or is it totally unimportant?).

gmaske, thanks for the tips, I think I'm sure going to cast my bullets when I'll try the big calibers. That's something I plan for the future, now I'll better stick with the 38/357 since I'm a novice and those calibers are good for competition, which I'd like to take up as soon as ready.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Plated bullets typicaly don't have a cannelure. It Is not necessary at lower velocities that you will use for target shooting. In the case of High Power full .357 loads the cannelure prevents bullet setback during firing. That is when the bullets in the unfired rounds shift within the cartridge because of recoil.

9MM, .40, and .45 caliber bullets for semiauto pistols do not have cannelures as recoil is not as vicious as magnum loads.

You will learn a lot with the 500 bullets you have and can venture out a bit later.

:smt1099


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