# Benefits Of Open Carry In Urban Areas?



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

In the state of Colorado where I live the right to open carry a firearm is specifically protected by our state constitution.

So outside of Denver and a few other bright blue cities, Coloradans have the option to carry open or concealed (concealed requiring a permit) and the majority, based on concealed handgun permit statistics, choose to carry concealed.

I choose to carry concealed because I believe it invites less hassle in my life. It is more compatible with my standard mode of dress and it lessens the chance by X amount did I will be targeted for a gun grab.

Those are specific and concrete reasons why I choose concealed. My question for those who choose to open carry in an urban setting ( I'm not talking about out in the back 40 with the Hogs) is what is your specific rationale for open carry? What do you gain from thebpractice over concealed carry?

I will say that even if I'm out hiking in the mountains I still don't open carry because I don't want some tweaker back in the bushes ( because that's a thing in Colorado) seeing me and knowing I am armed before I even know they're there.

So my question is, "What is it about open carry that made you decide that it was better practice compared to concealed carry?"


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Cypher said:


> In the state of Colorado where I live the right to open carry a firearm is specifically protected by our state constitution.
> 
> So outside of Denver and a few other bright blue cities, Coloradans have the option to carry open or concealed (concealed requiring a permit) and the majority, based on concealed handgun permit statistics, choose to carry concealed.
> 
> ...


I live in Arizona where open carry is legal and always has been. At one time it was the only way to lawfully carry a sidearm, PERIOD. Although I don't believe that it's good practice some people are probably doing it after years of doing so and it's hard to break that habit. Ever since Arizona first allowed concealed carry with a permit and then went Constitutional Carry you don't see it too much anymore. However there are times when you'll see a customer in aisle 7 of the local supermarket going about their daily business while visibly armed. Yet no one gets all bent outta' shape over it.

The problem with making it illegal to open carry a sidearm is if for any number of reasons your concealed weapon was exposed to the general public. Accidentally "printing" could also get you arrested as concealed carry means just that.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

Cypher said:


> So my question is, "What is it about open carry that made you decide that it was better practice compared to concealed carry?"


The need to look macho and be the first person shot by criminals when they see you openly carrying. That way you get your name in the paper as a news story and again in the obituaries.


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## gwpercle (Jun 8, 2018)

I live in Louisiana ... open carry has always been legal ... and
There are no required Pemits to buy or Insurance requirements or
Courses to complete , at my expense .
If I can legaly own the gun , Ican legaly carry it not concealed .

After being shot in the face during a robbery of my office a Police Lieutenant apoligized and said he was sorry they couldn't protect me and protection was up to me ... he explained all the places I could legaly carry a firearm concealed and open ... without prmits or requirements ... I had no idea about open carry and concealed carry allowed on your property , in your business , home and automobile that doesn't need a permit .
After that Open Carry was practiced , in all the legal places allowed by law ... and my business was never robbed again and I was never shot again ... thanks to the kind Police Lieutenant .

The time I was shot by the bad guy I was unarmed and had my hands up in the air showing I wasn't armed ... 
If you believe it will keep you safe I've got news for you ... I hadto stand there while he pulled the trigger 4 times and I could do nothing ... once I started open carry ... no more bad guy's ... they aren't as brave as you think they are .
Gary


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

crc4 said:


> *The need to look macho and be the first person shot by criminals when they see you openly carrying*. That way you get your name in the paper as a news story and again in the obituaries.


Although there are probably some I've yet to see anyone who's openly carrying purposely trying to draw attention to themselves. People out here are accustomed to seeing it over the years. Now if they're dressed in full fledged tactical gear that would definitely draw some attention and send people fleeing for the door. However since so many people are carrying concealed that would be a stupid thing to do.

About the only time that I saw someone purposely trying to draw attention to themselves was when this individual with a shaved head walked into the supermarket covered from head to toe with tattoo's. His face was tattooed to resemble a skull. He appeared to be unarmed wearing a tight pair of shorts and tank top to show off his muscular build, probably from hours on end lifting weights.

He looked like he was just released from prison and mad as hell at the world. He scared the living shit outta' my wife and she did all that she could to avoid any contact with this individual as did other customers. However all he was doing was picking up a few items and didn't have a shopping cart. He had either a girlfriend or wife with him that got her "kicks" out of seeing people's reactions towards them.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

In Arizona, Texas, and some other western states open carry is traditional and accepted (though I still suggest you're a target from bad guys).

But in most places, in the South where I've been for decades, no one has legally open-carried since the Civil War except lawmen and a few mountain areas where law desn't exist. Wal-Mart is full of urban cowboys, and other places attract the tactical-camo bunch looking for stares.

If I see them at a fast food place like the Waffle House, I sit as far away from them as I can. Let the bad guys get them first as I'm taking out my gun while looking for the exit.

I do my best to be the grey man.


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

gwpercle said:


> I live in Louisiana ... open carry has always been legal ... and
> There are no required Pemits to buy or Insurance requirements or
> Courses to complete , at my expense .
> If I can legaly own the gun , Ican legaly carry it not concealed .
> ...


I was hoping that _you_ would respond to this discussion.

We have had this discussion on the Smith & Wesson forum and you posted that you never heard of anybody actually having someone attempt to disarm them while they were open carrying. I rebutted you _directly_ and told you it happened to me three times. Another poster addressed you directly and pointed out my post to you. You ignored both of us and dropped out of the discussion. Here is the post

*


gwpercle;140797604 said:



I find it interesting that so many believe thugs are so brave they would seek out an armed man to attack . Have you ever been assulted and robbed?
They aren't brave and don't want to come up against an armed victim...
the thug might get hurt ...old , unarmed and alone make muck better prey.

Open Carry all you want ... you will not be singled out for attack ...thugs like easy prey not prey that's openly armed and will give them a fight.

To the OP ...Congratulations on your Open Carry , Keep on Keeping On !
Louisiana has always been an open carry state , no permit required ! 
I have never , in the last 50 years , been assaulted while open carrying , the only time I was shot and robbed was when I was unarmed and alone in my office . The bad guy made sure I was alone and unarmed before producing his hidden pistol and firing 4 shots at arms length . The outcome would have been much different if I had been open carrying that morning ... So you open carry whenever you want or feel the need . 
Gary

Click to expand...

Walked out of my house one night on my way to work. In uniform and open carrying on a duty belt. Two guys tried to rob me. I will grant that my uniform and gun were black and it was dark. They may not have known I was armed until I drew. 

Had some little street rat threaten to knock me down and take my gun. No question he knew I was armed. 

Had another crackhead try to take my gun in a Kum&Go one night at work. Again, in uniform and clearly armed. Again, no question he knew I was armed. 

Had a lunatic threaten to kill me with an axe at work one morning. At work, in uniform, clearly armed. The gun didn't phase him in the slightest. The OC did. 

Not a gun grab per se but a crackhead walked into a 7-11 where I was waiting for a gas receipt one morning. With zero provocation on my part walked up to me and screamed in my face "I'm security around here (insert foul language relating to your female parent of choice) and what was I going to do about it. Again clearly not intimidated by the gun but as soon as I unsnapped my OC he found business elsewhere. 

If you want to open carry you had better have a plan for WHEN someone tries to take it off you.

Your Milage May (and very likely does) vary.*

Thoughts?


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

crc4 said:


> In Arizona, Texas, and some other western states open carry is traditional and accepted *(though I still suggest you're a target from bad guys).*
> 
> But in most places, in the South where I've been for decades, no one has legally open-carried since the Civil War except lawmen and a few mountain areas where law desn't exist. Wal-Mart is full of urban cowboys, and other places attract the tactical-camo bunch looking for stares.
> 
> ...


Myself I never open carry while in public specifically for the reason that you stated. That's good sound reasoning. I do not under any circumstance want anyone to know that I am armed. It seems now that people where you are just out flaunting their new found freedom. Unfortunately they'll just ruin it for not only themselves but other as well. As many businesses will not allow firearms on their premises either open or concealed. Although there are some there's not too many businesses in Arizona that have declared themselves as gun free zones. Which makes matters worse.


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

Arizona Desertman said:


> It seems now that people where you are just out flaunting their new found freedom. Unfortunately they'll just ruin it for not only themselves but other as well.


I'm not sure if you were addressing me but the right to open carry a firearm has been specifically codified by the Colorado state constitution since we became a state in 1876. It is _NOT_ a "new found freedom".


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I open carried on a daily basis for 7 1/2 years from the summer of 2007 to January 2015. My rig was pretty nondescript, a gen3 Glock 23 most of the time in a Fobus Evolution belt holster. Only person that ever gave me any grief was not from Virginia. The reasons I stopped doing this are valid and personal (nothing bad happened). Frankly most people don't even realize you have a sidearm on your person, when it is out in the open. And if they do happen to see it, it's not uncommon at all for them to think you are in some area of law enforcement.

The only places I open carry now are always when in a vehicle, when going to my local range, and sometimes when gassing up one of my vehicles. Otherwise, it's concealed. As to why I open carried? I don't know. Maybe chalk it up to exercising my right to bear arms. I wasn't trying to draw attention to myself, that's for sure.

BTW, open carry is the normal mode of carrying a sidearm in Virginia and does not require a permit of any kind, whereas concealing it is the exceptional mode of carry and does require a permit.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

I open carry a lot in rural areas I Always conceal in outhouses like Asheville N.C. and other cities because t me all cities are outhouses. When out trail riding, nice weather it is open carry bad weather it is concealed. Most people don't pay enough attention to know what yu have on. The only time some one thought they could disarm me after looking in my face he changed his mind.


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

I was out hiking in the mountains one day and it ran into a guy on the trail who wasn't quite sure where he was going. So I explained the trail to him because I had just come over it and we got to talking and we sat there for about 5 minutes and then I move to a different position of the trail where I was roughly my head was at the level of his hip. That's when I noticed that he was open carrying an H&K.

It made me think of all of the times that I've heard people in discussions like this say that nobody notices when you open carry. And for the most part that's true. 

What bothers me is people who _do_ notice that you're open carrying. Similarly it's not the people who don't care it's the people who _do_ care that bother me.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

The ones who do notice tell you so and you watch them.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Cypher said:


> *I'm not sure if you were addressing me* but the right to open carry a firearm has been specifically codified by the Colorado state constitution since we became a state in 1876. It is _NOT_ a "new found freedom".


No I was replying to "crc4" whom I'm guessing lives in a state where open carry hasn't been seen since the civil war? In which case people wouldn't be used to it and many would get bent outta' shape over it in spite of it now becoming legal. As opposed to states where it's always been legal and was once commonplace. In Arizona it was once the only way to carry legally until 1994 when the state passed a law requiring a permit to carry concealed. Permits were issued on a "shall issue" basis and applicants couldn't be turned down without any just cause. Then in July 2010 Arizona dropped the requirement for a permit to carry concealed and became a "Constitutional Carry" state. Permits are optional for reciprocity reasons with other states and for permit holders to be in compliance with the "Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990". There are other perks as well such as not having to undergo a NICS check when purchasing a firearm and you can enter establishments that serve alcohol for consumption on their premises providing that the permit holder does not drink while in possession of a firearm.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Cypher said:


> I was out hiking in the mountains one day and it ran into a guy on the trail who wasn't quite sure where he was going. So I explained the trail to him because I had just come over it and we got to talking and we sat there for about 5 minutes and then I move to a different position of the trail where I was roughly my head was at the level of his hip. That's when I noticed that he was open carrying an H&K.
> 
> It made me think of all of the times that I've heard people in discussions like this say that nobody notices when you open carry. And for the most part that's true.
> 
> What bothers me is people who _do_ notice that you're open carrying. Similarly it's not the people who don't care it's the people who _do_ care that bother me.


As far as the few people that do notice in a negative way others that choose to open carry where it's legal. As long as the open carrier is not bothering or threatening anyone which by the way is a crime unto itself. Screw 'em it really is none of their God Damn business. Do those same people get all bent outta' shape at the sight of a police officer openly carrying a gun? Of course there are those who are either visiting or moving from a state where it's never been legal and the sight of an open carrier scares the shit outta' them. In which case why should we change our laws to accommodate them? All that does is create animosity and hostility towards those out of staters, and if they decide to move here will not be welcomed. 

If moving to or visiting from out of state and the civilian possession of guns is important to you and if you're a big gun control advocate. I'd suggest either visiting or moving elsewhere or at the very least respect what has been long held traditions in the state that they're planning on moving to or visiting. After all generations of them come first. If they do then they'll have no issues and will more than likely be welcomed in their adopted state.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

Arizona Desertman said:


> As far as the few people that do notice in a negative way others that choose to open carry where it's legal. As long as the open carrier is not bothering or threatening anyone which by the way is a crime unto itself. Screw 'em it really is none of their God Damn business. Do those same people get all bent outta' shape at the sight of a police officer openly carrying a gun? Of course there are those who are either visiting or moving from a state where it's never been legal and the sight of an open carrier scares the shit outta' them. In which case why should we change our laws to accommodate them? All that does is create animosity and hostility towards those out of staters, and if they decide to move here will not be welcomed.





Arizona Desertman said:


> No I was replying to "crc4" whom I'm guessing lives in a state where open carry hasn't been seen since the civil war? In which case people wouldn't be used to it and many would get bent outta' shape over it in spite of it now becoming legal.


Natives in Tennessee who are 45 or above remember when kids carried .22 rifles and shotguns to school to go hunting afterward. Never a problem. No one shot, car-jacked, or another aspiring rapper killed by his homies.

But as we changed in the last 35 years, with more Yankees, more liberals, and more assholes moving in. Going to Walmart now is like you crossed the equator into the Twilight Zone mix of Midway freak show and recently released lunatic asylum parolees. Concealed carry makes sense to keep from being accosted by the mental midget Karens in the Wild.

I support someone's right to open carry. I also support the right not to like it, and if businesses or people wish to exercise their right to refuse me service or friendship because of it, that's also OK with me. I have the choice to go elsewhere or obey the rules that property-rights gives the owner to have his will done on his property.

I go to places where people openly carry, but I confess I watch their behavior closely to see how they carry. To some it's natural. To others, it's a chance to act badass, confrontational, with an in-your-face screw-you attitude, that I detest whether it involves guns or fast-food idiots raising hell over a french fry and then throwing stuff.

Carrying guns is like everything else that involves people. 10% are sociopathic, psychopathic, borderline personality disorder, schizophrenic, and all the other mental defects possible. Some of them are on gun forums!

It's that 10% that bear watching. [/QUOTE]


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

Arizona Desertman said:


> No I was replying to "crc4" whom I'm guessing lives in a state where open carry hasn't been seen since the civil war?


Ah So Ka. 

I have him on ignore


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## moorgena (4 mo ago)

Probably not many benefits. 

The only one I can think of is that it would be better than being totally unarmed. 

The trouble is, you will be considered a gun dispenser by virtually any ne'er do well who see you. And you will have absolutely no idea that you are a target until it would be too late. 

No sense in advertising in that marker.


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## Jester560 (Jun 22, 2020)

Lots of arrogance and close-minded people in here. One wonders why things have slowed to a crawl on this forum and why it is only the same 10 to 20 people always posting. This is why.

Peace out....


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of arrogance and close-minded people in here. One wonders why things have slowed to a crawl on this forum and why it is only the same 10 to 20 people always posting. This is why.
> 
> Peace out....


I suspect most mean well; they may just have a knee-jerk moment now and then. Personally I fully support open and concealed carry. I would consider myself to be a hypocrite if I didn't think this way. Enjoy the holidays.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Personal opinions some times seems at times when posted to be closed minded and knows best but they are just opinions.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of arrogance and close-minded people in here. One wonders why things have slowed to a crawl on this forum and why it is only the same 10 to 20 people always posting. This is why.
> 
> Peace out....


Please explain this.

This is a discussion forum. I looked back thru the entire thread -this thread is just people giving their own opinions on the topic.... That's the point of this forum.

No one is rude or abusive. No one is even being annoying. We can either agree or disagree with a particular poster. I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

So, please explain to us what the problem with this thread is.

Thanks.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

We all have opinions, as is our right, whether or not others agree or disagree with them. The real beauty of individual liberty IS the holding of adverse ideas and opinions. I will never divert from the truth of the fact that the Founders got it right. Liberty is more precious than life itself.


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## Jester560 (Jun 22, 2020)

Shipwreck said:


> Please explain this.
> 
> This is a discussion forum. I looked back thru the entire thread -this thread is just people giving their own opinions on the topic.... That's the point of this forum.
> 
> ...



Lots of folks putting down a style of carry by parroting anecdotal evidence when they have never done so themselves. I have been carrying concealed since 1989 and open carrying at times since 2013 when it became legal in Alabama. Never once have I had anyone touch my weapon or give a disparaging remark. Granted I live in a very conservative state but facts are facts by someone with extensive experience. 

The example I like to give is as follows....

A burglar walks up to a store or diner and looks in the window. He sees nothing in the way of resistance and walks in to rob the place. A concealed carry pulls their weapon and someone gets shot. Hopefully the robber but no one knows for sure what will happen.

Same store or diner but he sees several people open carrying. What does he do? More than likely he walks away to find a softer target. 

I will continue to both open and concealed carry as I see fit just like most here will carry their own style. I just won't do it here.

Happy holidays to everyone!


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of folks putting down a style of carry by parroting anecdotal evidence when they have never done so themselves. I have been carrying concealed since 1989 and open carrying at times since 2013 when it became legal in Alabama. Never once have I had anyone touch my weapon or give a disparaging remark. Granted I live in a very conservative state but facts are facts by someone with extensive experience.
> 
> The example I like to give is as follows....
> 
> ...


I'm not putting down those who open carry at all. I have my reasons for not opening carrying and they go back to when in Law Enforcement I open carried for 10 years. People try to kill cops because they see the open-carried firearm. That's not anecdotal. I was hired as a result of an armed man with a shotgun seeing cops. He killed one and badly wounded the other. Why? Because they had guns and were a threat to the subject's goals.

You could always tell the rookie cops. They took every opportunity to wear their gun in public and not be concerned if anyone saw it when off duty. Again, if you're a bad guy with a dangerous attitude, who are you going to shoot first? The man with the visible gun.

If I'm accosted by thugs the first one I'm going to attempt to take out is the one open carrying. You always shoot the threat first. That's also not anecdotal.

Your example is narrow in focus. Robbing a Waffle House for chump change is different than robbing a jewelry store with millions in merchandise or robbing a bank with millions in cash and bearer bonds. Security guards wearing open-carry guns are the first to be neutralized by force. Criminals who attack banks, high-dollar jewelry stores, armored cars, etc., are most often professionals have no qualms about neutralizing threats. Who's the first threat? The people displaying arms.

This has been a good discussion so far. You're entitled to your opinion. Most of the posters said they open carry at times and conceal carry at times. I do too. I only open carry in the woods, on a tractor, and sometimes in the car where it's easier to produce a firearm if the need arises.

No one here has said anything other than what they do. No one here has stated they are against open carry.

Don't take it personally.


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of folks putting down a style of carry by parroting anecdotal evidence when they have never done so themselves. I have been carrying concealed since 1989 and open carrying at times since 2013 when it became legal in Alabama. Never once have I had anyone touch my weapon or give a disparaging remark. Granted I live in a very conservative state but facts are facts by someone with extensive experience.


Define "Extensive Experience".

I open carried as part of my job for several years. I had three people (that I remember) actually try to disarm me.

I had multiple people _threaten_ to attempt to disarm me. 

I had to deal with clients asking me why _I_ felt the need to carry a gun on a _daily_ basis. I always told them "This is what your employer contracted for. If you have any issue with it take it up with them." 

I also had to deal with the constant comments of "That gun is not real" or "That gun's not loaded." 

Those aren't opinions based on ignorance. Those are real experiences that I actually had. 

My _opinion_, _BASED_ on my _experience_ is that open carry causes more problems than it solves.


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

Jester560 said:


> Same store or diner but he sees several people open carrying. What does he do? More than likely he walks away to find a softer target.


The example (_ Again, based on actual experience_) I like to give is that the robber, street rat, miscreant, whatever you want to call him, takes one look at that gun in the first words out of his mouth are "Go ahead and shoot me m*****!!!!!!!! _I DARE YOU_."

Bro, you are not the first person that's threatened that robber with deadly force. If it goes to shooting you're probably not the first person that ever shot _at_ him or even _shot_. Can you say the same? 

I had two guys trying to rob me on my way to work one night. They did back down when they realize that I was armed and more importantly _willing to fight_ but the fact that I had a gun didn't intimidate them in the slightest. They were not afraid of me. They just decided that I wasn't worth the effort. Well they were _walking_ away the guy that started it actually stopped and turned around and told me to "F*** off." 

So if you're going to carry a gun (openly or concealed) you had better have a plan for what you're going to do when that happens to you


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## MPDC69 (4 mo ago)

I am a former Policeman. Obviously, I open carried in uniform and had several instances of people I arrested attempting to take my S&W model ten. Working plain clothes, carrying concealed, never experienced similar.
‘Now living in Florida and carrying concealed daily, in my opinion IF open carry is passed I will continue to carry concealed. In Florida, many assume you are carrying anyway and the thugs that don’t frequently have their “obituaries” on the evening news.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of folks putting down a style of carry by parroting anecdotal evidence when they have never done so themselves. I have been carrying concealed since 1989 and open carrying at times since 2013 when it became legal in Alabama. Never once have I had anyone touch my weapon or give a disparaging remark. Granted I live in a very conservative state but facts are facts by someone with extensive experience.
> 
> The example I like to give is as follows....
> 
> ...


I would bet that more often than not the perp is probably going to think the OC's are plain clothes police officers and move on. When I used to open carry I had one incident where someone who caught my attention as he was approaching me suddenly diverted his direction when he clearly saw my sidearm.

There are good ideas and bad ones about OC'ing and I suspect I have heard most of them because I hung out with people who also did this on a regular basis. In my neck of the woods there are a lot of law enforcement agencies. State police, county/city/town police, FBI, DHS types, and others in the alphabet soup of government departments (I live less than 40 miles from Washington, DC). So if a citizen were to have seen my openly carried sidearm back when I was doing this on a daily basis, they would most likely have thought I was a member of some LE agency. Many asked me if I was back then.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of folks putting down a style of carry by parroting anecdotal evidence when they have never done so themselves. I have been carrying concealed since 1989 and open carrying at times since 2013 when it became legal in Alabama. Never once have I had anyone touch my weapon or give a disparaging remark. Granted I live in a very conservative state but facts are facts by someone with extensive experience.
> 
> The example I like to give is as follows....
> 
> ...


Ok, I get your point - but your point has nothing to do with the number of members here on the forum. 

And, it's curious. I am on a ton of gun forums... Nothing seems to rile up people more than the topic of open carry. Truthfully, 80%+ of members on the gun forums probably never open carry... At least that is what it seems like. Most concealed carry people like to stay concealed carry.

I have never open carried, although it is legal in Texas. One reason I like open carry is because I don't have to worry about "printing" anymore. When the CHL law first passed in Texas in the 1990s, we were taught in the required classes to minimize printing - or there could be consequences... Thankfully, that issue is gone.

But why is this topic such a powder keg, really? I don't open carry. I don't care to. If you want to - feel free. Do I agree with all of your reasoning for it? Maybe not - but, I am not saying I am against it. But, if you get upset because everyone doesn't necessarily agree with you - I can't help that. I probably have differing opinions than a lot of people on the internet, about a lot of topics. So what... Not a big deal.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> Ok, I get your point - but your point has nothing to do with the number of members here on the forum.
> 
> And, it's curious. I am on a ton of gun forums... Nothing seems to rile up people more than the topic of open carry. Truthfully, 80%+ of members on the gun forums probably never open carry... At least that is what it seems like. Most concealed carry people like to stay concealed carry.
> 
> ...


That really is the bottom line or even a gust of wind exposing your sidearm could get you arrested if someone reported you to authorities. If concealed carry is the only way to lawfully carry in your home state it means just that. That's why I would never advocate for open carry to be illegal. Not only that but I believe that people should be able to carry whichever way they choose providing that they are not threatening anyone. Fortunately where I live I've yet to see any of that. Occasionally you'll see people going about their daily business while openly carrying a sidearm but that's about it. It draws very little if any unwanted attention.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

This is what my state's constitution has to say about the right to keep and bear arms.

"That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

A cursory examination of this text reveals that there is absolutely no mention of how those arms may be carried on or about one's person. Be it openly carried or concealed from common observation, one has the right to do as he pleases. Yes, laws have been passed that do infringe upon this most fundamental and basic right and that is a serious bug in my craw. Where open carry is concerned, there is no mention of this in Virginia law (code), which means one can do this unabated at their discretion without the need of a permit.

As I mentioned before, I would consider myself a hypocrite were I to take the position of being against open carry and work towards that end.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

A potential problem arises when someone who openly carries enters a private business or premises that excluded open carry as its policy. Some persons use the 'right to bear arms" as a justified reason to continue to carry against the desires of the property owner. This is what the non-gun public sees as 
"those crazy gun-nuts" that smear all gun owners. 

Private property has its own rules that should be obeyed or don't go in.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

crc4 said:


> A potential problem arises when someone who openly carries enters a private business or premises that excluded open carry as its policy. Some persons use the 'right to bear arms" as a justified reason to continue to carry against the desires of the property owner. This is what the non-gun public sees as
> "those crazy gun-nuts" that smear all gun owners.
> 
> Private property has its own rules that should be obeyed or don't go in.


I don't ever recall seeing a business that had posted such a sign. In fact where I live, you almost never see any businesses that have "No Guns" signs posted. I can't remember the last time I saw one of these on a private business.

I do agree that the owner has the right to post such a sign but here, they do not carry the force of law. However, if he notices you're carrying and asks you to leave or leave your sidearm in your car and you refuse, he can summon the police and press charges of trespassing. So you have two choices available to you in my area. You can either leave, or disarm outside, or stay in the store as long as your sidearm is not detected and conduct your business. I suspect most folks choose to take their money elsewhere when the see such a sign. But again, these signs have no force of law.

My position is that if I were to see such a sign I would leave and go elsewhere, unless what I was looking for was only available at that place of business. Then it's a toss up. Since I would not be breaking any laws by staying in that store, I'm not so sure what I would do. Maybe try to find what I was looking for online??


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

The sign has the force of law if the property owner decides to trespass the person. That's how it should be. Otherwise, someone could come into your home and do as they wish. If property rights do not exist, there are no other rights.

Here's the deal. If someone was carrying concealed, no one would know. The carrier could do his business, then go about his day without any stink being raised.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

SouthernBoy said:


> I don't ever recall seeing a business that had posted such a sign. In fact where I live, you almost never see any businesses that have "No Guns" signs posted. I can't remember the last time I saw one of these on a private business.
> 
> I do agree that the owner has the right to post such a sign but here, they do not carry the force of law. However, if he notices you're carrying and asks you to leave or leave your sidearm in your car and you refuse, he can summon the police and press charges of trespassing. So you have two choices available to you in my area. You can either leave, or disarm outside, or stay in the store as long as your sidearm is not detected and conduct your business. I suspect most folks choose to take their money elsewhere when the see such a sign. But again, these signs have no force of law.
> 
> My position is that if I were to see such a sign I would leave and go elsewhere, unless what I was looking for was only available at that place of business. Then it's a toss up. Since I would not be breaking any laws by staying in that store, I'm not so sure what I would do. Maybe try to find what I was looking for online??


In Texas, there is legal signage that businesses can put up to prohibit open carry and concealed carry. The wording is long, and must be in English and Spanish in 1 inch letters. The proper signage is usually like 3 feet wide or 3 feet long.

Pretty much every chain store has up the "no open carry" signage here. What sucks is that many places that did NOT prohibit concealed carry DOES now prohibit BOTH, after open carry was passed.

The sign companies were printing both on the same signage.

If you want to go do any shopping at all, you won't be open carrying. Convenience stores don 't prohibit it, but all the grocery stores do.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Shipwreck said:


> In Texas, there is legal signage that businesses can put up to prohibit open carry and concealed carry. The wording is long, and must be in English and Spanish in 1 inch letters. The proper signage is usually like 3 feet wide or 3 feet long.
> 
> Pretty much every chain store has up the "no open carry" signage here. What sucks is that many places that did NOT prohibit concealed carry DOES now prohibit BOTH, after open carry was passed.
> 
> ...


I know about the signs which carry the force of law. I believe they are referred to as 30.06 signs, aren't they? Since open carry is not a law here, one is free to do that at their discretion, pretty much anywhere they please where it is legal to be armed. Seeing any sort of NO GUNS sign here in Virginia at a private business is very rare. I'm sure there are some places which have these signs but they are few and far between and I just don't ever see them in the places I visit.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

SouthernBoy said:


> I know about the signs which carry the force of law. I believe they are referred to as 30.06 signs, aren't they? Since open carry is not a law here, one is free to do that at their discretion, pretty much anywhere they please where it is legal to be armed. Seeing any sort of NO GUNS sign here in Virginia at a private business is very rare. I'm sure there are some places which have these signs but they are few and far between and I just don't ever see them in the places I visit.


Yes, there are 30.06 signs. 30.07 is open carry, and there is another sign for banning carry with no permit.


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## BigGun1911 (3 mo ago)

crc4 said:


> I'm not putting down those who open carry at all. I have my reasons for not opening carrying and they go back to when in Law Enforcement I open carried for 10 years. People try to kill cops because they see the open-carried firearm. That's not anecdotal. I was hired as a result of an armed man with a shotgun seeing cops. He killed one and badly wounded the other. Why? Because they had guns and were a threat to the subject's goals. You could always tell the rookie cops. They took every opportunity to wear their gun in public and not be concerned if anyone saw it when off duty. Again, if you're a bad guy with a dangerous attitude, who are you going to shoot first? The man with the visible gun. If I'm accosted by thugs the first one I'm going to attempt to take out is the one open carrying. You always shoot the threat first. That's also not anecdotal. Your example is narrow in focus. Robbing a Waffle House for chump change is different than robbing a jewelry store with millions in merchandise or robbing a bank with millions in cash and bearer bonds. Security guards wearing open-carry guns are the first to be neutralized by force. Criminals who attack banks, high-dollar jewelry stores, armored cars, etc., are most often professionals have no qualms about neutralizing threats. Who's the first threat? The people displaying arms. This has been a good discussion so far. You're entitled to your opinion. Most of the posters said they open carry at times and conceal carry at times. I do too. I only open carry in the woods, on a tractor, and sometimes in the car where it's easier to produce a firearm if the need arises. No one here has said anything other than what they do. No one here has stated they are against open carry. Don't take it personally.


 This is a personal choice, it shouldn't be an issue for anyone.


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## BigGun1911 (3 mo ago)

Jester560 said:


> Lots of arrogance and close-minded people in here. One wonders why things have slowed to a crawl on this forum and why it is only the same 10 to 20 people always posting. This is why.
> 
> Peace out....


For sure


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

It is people willing to post themselves. Pick a topic you want to talk about and post. You just don't expect every one to agree with you, and if they don't so what. I have found most people are lurkers and don't post what they think, and that is their choice. I didn't post that much until I retired.


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## guydodge (3 mo ago)

learn to read the room,know your audience.i'd say concealed or open brings danger theres no right answer here.if you conceal then your more likely
someone might attack thinking your vulnerable if you open carry your likely to draw attention to yourself in the way of harassment.possibly causing confrontation
which is the lesser of 2 evils ? i revert back to my initial statement.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

First rule of surviving a gunfight is have a gun.


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## guydodge (3 mo ago)

tony pasley said:


> First rule of surviving a gunfight is have a gun.


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## BDziak (3 mo ago)

crc4 said:


> I'm not putting down those who open carry at all. I have my reasons for not opening carrying and they go back to when in Law Enforcement I open carried for 10 years. People try to kill cops because they see the open-carried firearm. That's not anecdotal. I was hired as a result of an armed man with a shotgun seeing cops. He killed one and badly wounded the other. Why? Because they had guns and were a threat to the subject's goals.
> 
> You could always tell the rookie cops. They took every opportunity to wear their gun in public and not be concerned if anyone saw it when off duty. Again, if you're a bad guy with a dangerous attitude, who are you going to shoot first? The man with the visible gun.
> 
> ...


My biggest issue with open carry is all the Karen's out there that Freak Out when they see someone carrying a Firearm. I believe it opens a person up to un-needed attention that can generally involve Law Enforcement as well as being detained for no good reason. Don't get me wrong, I have NO Issue with Law Enforcement and I would jump in to help in a New York minute if they were in a bad situation. My issue is due to the WOKE NIT WITS that open their mouths and draw attention when it's Not Needed...PLUS....in the event of a shooter, the open carry person is usually the first one targeted. I believe if you have the Legal ability to conceal carry....DO SO instead of Open Carry. It saves a lot of headaches at the end of the day.


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## Fredward (Dec 10, 2016)

BDziak said:


> My biggest issue with open carry is all the Karen's out there that Freak Out when they see someone carrying a Firearm. I believe it opens a person up to un-needed attention that can generally involve Law Enforcement as well as being detained for no good reason. Don't get me wrong, I have NO Issue with Law Enforcement and I would jump in to help in a New York minute if they were in a bad situation. My issue is due to the WOKE NIT WITS that open their mouths and draw attention when it's Not Needed...PLUS....in the event of a shooter, the open carry person is usually the first one targeted. I believe if you have the Legal ability to conceal carry....DO SO instead of Open Carry. It saves a lot of headaches at the end of the day.


Is this a proven fact, or one of those "it stands to reason" things? Not challenging you, but criminals, especially violent criminals, think differently. I've heard it said that photographer's vests and tactical pants wearers will be shot first. IMHO, most criminals wouldn't know what tactical pants are. And, most will not be deterred by someone carrying openly. A large percentage are using mind altering substances.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

It depends. Some criminals don't know the day of the week. Others could outgun the FBI on their best day. 

Dressing like a tactical-turd is a sure way to get attention - from those of us who laugh at them to a criminal who might think Camo man is a threat with a gun.

Run-of-the-mill crooks remain stupid. But we are seeing highly trained, professional, cold-blooded type of criminals today in gangs. These are the ones who shoot first and never ask questions.
They are almost 99% after loot, not lives. However, they won't let you get in their way.

Dress like a safari rangemaster/tactical/camo-outfit/2nd Amendment and Glock tee-shirt-wearing dude, and you've set yourself up for an examination you probably won't like.

Why dress that way? You have the right to do so, but just how smart is it?


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## drycreek (Jul 17, 2021)

crc4 said:


> It depends. Some criminals don't know the day of the week. Others could outgun the FBI on their best day.
> 
> Dressing like a tactical-turd is a sure way to get attention - from those of us who laugh at them to a criminal who might think Camo man is a threat with a gun.
> 
> ...


I used to not think this way, but more and more I’m coming around. With age comes wisdom ? IDK, but I’d like to think so. I don’t even put NRA stickers on my truck anymore. I very, very seldom go without a covering garment, and never do I go inside a business open carrying. I don’t want the attention ! In the winter I normally carry OWB with a Carhart vest, if not a jacket. Every now and again the vest will get too hot and I’ll pull it off. I might stop for gas without the vest or go through a drive through, (I’m prone to an apple fritter and coffee), but that’s the extent of open carrying. As Ship stated, it’s legal here in Texas, but I see very little of it. I do look folks over more than I used to and I see people carrying “concealed” that ain’t concealing. I once saw a guy in a Subway who was wearing a T shirt that was so tight you could damn near read the serial number on his gun. Well, that’s an a exaggeration but you get the point. I don’t want to be THAT GUY !


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## BDziak (3 mo ago)

crc4 said:


> It depends. Some criminals don't know the day of the week. Others could outgun the FBI on their best day.
> 
> Dressing like a tactical-turd is a sure way to get attention - from those of us who laugh at them to a criminal who might think Camo man is a threat with a gun.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. My belief is to dress in a way as to NOT show any advantage, Real or Perceived. I personally like the element of surprise rather than look like someone out of Gun Carry Quarterly. I'm a 66 years young guy that loves sweat pants, basketball shorts or any other type of casual dress as to appear I'm unarmed. I dress accordingly and carry either a Beretta PX4 45 or 1911. I don't like to flaunt a tactical advantage however mess with my family or me and I WILL have the advantage over a perp. I'm not a tough guy but a guy that tries to use Common Sense and Good Judgement when I carry which is every time I leave my house. I just Love the element of surprise when the perp would have No Idea that I was the guy that shot them should that situation come up.


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## BigGun1911 (3 mo ago)

BDziak said:


> My biggest issue with open carry is all the Karen's out there that Freak Out when they see someone carrying a Firearm. I believe it opens a person up to un-needed attention that can generally involve Law Enforcement as well as being detained for no good reason. Don't get me wrong, I have NO Issue with Law Enforcement and I would jump in to help in a New York minute if they were in a bad situation. My issue is due to the WOKE NIT WITS that open their mouths and draw attention when it's Not Needed...PLUS....in the event of a shooter, the open carry person is usually the first one targeted. I believe if you have the Legal ability to conceal carry....DO SO instead of Open Carry. It saves a lot of headaches at the end of the day.


I still don't understand why people who conceal carry keep telling us we shouldn't open carry. It doesn't affect them. People who open carry never cry about people who conceal carry.
Also, people who conceal carry claim they like the element of surprise yet carry using a kydex holster that can be heard in the next county. So much for a surprise.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

BigGun1911 said:


> I still don't understand why people who conceal carry keep telling us we shouldn't open carry.


Can you point to anyone here who said that?

Personally, I don't care if you wear it as an earring.


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## BDziak (3 mo ago)

BigGun1911 said:


> I still don't understand why people who conceal carry keep telling us we shouldn't open carry. It doesn't affect them. People who open carry never cry about people who conceal carry.
> Also, people who conceal carry claim they like the element of surprise yet carry using a kydex holster that can be heard in the next county. So much for a surprise.


You're missing the point.....Depending where you live, work or shop, there are SO MANY Panicked and WOKE individuals that Freak Out when they see a NON Police Officer wearing a gun. To avoid those confrontations with these Village Idiots that get their feelings hurt over Pronouns, many people (myself included) will always prefer to conceal carry. These Pink Haired Men and Women Freak Out over the smallest things so WHY would a person intentionally cause an un-necessary scene with a person of questionable Pronoun? You would think it would be as simple as you described however today's society is NOT susceptible to logic. Do as you please regarding open carry. I just believe you can avoid any type of verbal confrontation with the Woke Idiots with concealed carry......that's my 2 cents


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

BigGun1911 said:


> I still don't understand why people who conceal carry keep telling us we shouldn't open carry. It doesn't affect them. People who open carry never cry about people who conceal carry.


Ironic, isn't it. And from "gun people", no less. I support both modes of carry.



BigGun1911 said:


> Also, people who conceal carry claim they like the element of surprise yet carry using a kydex holster that can be heard in the next county. So much for a surprise.


What many of those who conceal carry miss is that they are targets just like everybody else because they look like everybody else. What separates the concealed carrier from the general population is a heightened situational awareness, which is also something that must be practiced by open carriers even more as their fangs are out in the open.

Frankly, there are pros and cons with both modes of carry and the wise and prudent person will not only recognize this but actively conduct themselves when out and about armed in a manner that both protects them and their sidearm and assuages the general public's concerns, as well.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

BDziak said:


> *My biggest issue with open carry is all the Karen's out there that Freak Out when they see someone carrying a Firearm*. I believe it opens a person up to un-needed attention that can generally involve Law Enforcement as well as being detained for no good reason. Don't get me wrong, I have NO Issue with Law Enforcement and I would jump in to help in a New York minute if they were in a bad situation. My issue is due to the WOKE NIT WITS that open their mouths and draw attention when it's Not Needed...PLUS....in the event of a shooter, the open carry person is usually the first one targeted. I believe if you have the Legal ability to conceal carry....DO SO instead of Open Carry. It saves a lot of headaches at the end of the day.


*For strategic reasons myself I never open carry in public.* However whether anyone freaks out or not all depends on where you live. I live in Arizona which is obvious. I've yet to see anyone freak out over someone going about their daily business while openly carrying a sidearm or even trying to flaunt it.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Arizona Desertman said:


> *For strategic reasons myself I never open carry in public.* However whether anyone freaks out or not all depends on where you live. I live in Arizona which is obvious. I've yet to see anyone freak out over someone going about their daily business while openly carrying a sidearm or even trying to flaunt it.


While I did get one person who gave me a little grief during the time I was OC'g on a daily basis (July 2007 - December 2014), I never saw anyone freak out when they noticed my sidearm. Except for a few cases/situations, I returned to carrying concealed in January 2015 and am quite comfortable with my decision. However I still fully support both modes of carry as long as its done responsibly (as in not trying to be deliberately showy) and with respect for others.

That said, when it all comes down to the nitty gritty, I frankly don't give a damn what others might think of me carrying a firearm when out and about in the public arena. It's my right to do this and it's none of their business.

UPDATE: In retrospect, that last paragraph above did sound a little snarky and I am a little bit ashamed for having included it (don't know what the heck possessed me to write it). Not my usual self.


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## mur.cap (7 mo ago)

Bickering here on a supposedly "fraternal" firearms discussion belies the purpose of the Forum. It's a brotherhood and sisterhood of firearms enthusiasts and shouldn't morph into a "botherhood."
Some proponents of open carry, justify it by virtue of the U.S. Constitution and/or their State version or laws. That's a theoretical discussion. The practical discussion revolves around whether you
wish to expose a carried firearm. That's a tactical discussion. Choose your "poison." Many concealed carry people, from the tactical aisle, have used the term "shoot me first" attire, such as wearing items of clothing which might transit the possibility of being an armed civilians or a police officer. Those items could be a khaki, multi-pocketed vest (which I do wear) or other types of military clothing.
I'd be wearing that type of vest even if I wasn't a concealed carrier, nor carrying at the time and I do. I have never had anyone challenge me in that regard, but I have had people ask me if I was a fisherman, or they commented on the number of pockets it contained. It's a Hobbs's Choice. Do your thing. Develop your own style. But be cautious. Merry Christmas and all those other holiday salutation to you all. Be Safe.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

mur.cap said:


> Some proponents of open carry, justify it by virtue of the U.S. Constitution and/or their State version or laws. That's a theoretical discussion.


I wish to disagree with the idea that anything in the Constitution is theoretical. When we are addressing the Bill of Rights section, those are absolutes, regardless of what some local, state, or federal government seems to believe.

Governments cannot bestow rights nor can they remove them. Yes they can control and restrict one's right to exercise those rights but doing so without just cause is in violation of the Bill of Right and therefore, illegal. And yes I also know that our employees. i.e. public servants, have been doing this for many years.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

SouthernBoy said:


> I wish to disagree with the idea that anything in the Constitution is theoretical. When we are addressing the Bill of Rights section, those are absolutes, regardless of what some local, state, or federal government seems to believe.
> 
> Governments cannot bestow rights nor can they remove them. Yes they can control and restrict one's right to exercise those rights but doing so without just cause is in violation of the Bill of Right and therefore, illegal. And yes I also know that our employees. i.e. public servants, have been doing this for many years.


Agree 100% and well said SB.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

One point I have to disagree. There are natural rights which governments can't bestow or take away, then there are civil rights, which the government does bestow and can take away ,example Prohibition. First they enacted it then they repealed. You are correct on natural rights.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I can think of one open carry scenario that is an advantage. 
Carrying a good rifle.
The skunks might avoid playing with those with a 300 yard+ reach.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

tony pasley said:


> One point I have to disagree. There are natural rights which governments can't bestow or take away, then there are civil rights, which the government does bestow and can take away ,example Prohibition. First they enacted it then they repealed. You are correct on natural rights.


Yes sir, I was speaking about natural, aka inherent, rights, or perhaps a better word might be liberties. Our Founding Fathers were very adamant believers of the concept of individual liberty. They were classic liberals, a term about as distant from what passes as contemporary liberal as night and day.

As for civil rights, all of the rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights are civil rights, as well. Over the past 60+ years, this term has been "stolen" by special interest groups and has lost its meaning. An example of this is the idea of "women's rights". In reality, there is no such thing as women's rights and the reason is simple.

Our constitution does not recognize the concept of "group" rights and thank God for that. That's just another tool to Balkanize the nation by creating enclaves of people who believe they are owed something for some past indiscretion. In so doing, discord and outright hate rule. Civil rights has nothing to do with groups and everything to do with We the People.


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## crc4 (2 mo ago)

The right of self-defense needs no laws, grants, privileges, or permissions.

Being born makes self-defense its own justification.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

crc4 said:


> The right of self-defense needs no laws, grants, privileges, or permissions.
> 
> *Being born makes self-defense its own justification.*


Yes sir this is absolutely correct. Well stated.


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## guydodge (3 mo ago)

SouthernBoy said:


> I wish to disagree with the idea that anything in the Constitution is theoretical. When we are addressing the Bill of Rights section, those are absolutes, regardless of what some local, state, or federal government seems to believe.
> 
> Governments cannot bestow rights nor can they remove them. Yes they can control and restrict one's right to exercise those rights but doing so without just cause is in violation of the Bill of Right and therefore, illegal. And yes I also know that our employees. i.e. public servants, have been doing this for many years.


this sounds great,now we just have to get our government to follow the laws/constitution.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

guydodge said:


> this sounds great,now we just have to get our government to follow the laws/constitution.


Yes sir. It's one thing to have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights, but quite another thing to see our employees adhere to the dictates of these documents.


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## mur.cap (7 mo ago)

Arizona Desertman said:


> Agree 100% and well said SB.


The Open Border is illegal...but the Dem like to discuss it..."theoretically." As a Patriot you know the U.S.C. is a "land-based" document but isn't the discussion of rights ordained by God, theoretical?
They faith-based. The U.S.C. right to carry maybe legal, but the discussion of its application is theoretical. The Left and The Right still can't get past what a "militia" is. That's in the Constitution and they're still discussing it...theoretically.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

mur.cap said:


> The Open Border is illegal...but the Dem like to discuss it..."theoretically." As a Patriot you know the U.S.C. is a "land-based" document but isn't the discussion of rights ordained by God, theoretical?
> They faith-based. The U.S.C. right to carry maybe legal, but the discussion of its application is theoretical. The Left and The Right still can't get past what a "militia" is. That's in the Constitution and they're still discussing it...theoretically.


There are theoreticals and there are absolutes. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are absolutes. As for the militia, it is currently made up of close to 100 million people. Whether they know it or not, all males between the ages of 17 and 45 are members of the common militia. And certain females are also members.

(a)
The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)
the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)
the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.


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