# .40 Double Tap 200 Grain rounds



## snowman46919

Due to a members recent challenges on another forum with double tap ammunition I am a little leary of ordering this ammo. Basically it is about the heaviest .40 load I can find and it is really interesting. I have talked with aszerigan (a commercial reloader from another forum) about it and am wondering if anyone has experience with these loads. Here are the associated links:

.40 S&W 200gr. FMJ









these are the ones I was really looking at:

40 S&W 200gr. WFNGC









and the jhp
.40 S&W 200gr Nosler JHP









So if anyone has any insight lets hear it.


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## snowman46919

Edited to add the member I mentioned is a commercial reloader from another forum.


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## ozzy

I believe my pistola is recommended for up to 180 gr. I'll stop there.


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## snowman46919

ozzy said:


> I believe my pistola is recommended for up to 180 gr. I'll stop there.


Thanks that helped a lot.tumbleweed


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## Packard

For personal defense 200 (even 180) sounds like it could over-penetrate. What are you using the ammo for (other than paper targets).


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## snowman46919

The soul purpose for these rounds would either be trail rounds for the farm (over 100 acres) or for competition. The main reasoning behind it is to get as much backward recoil and lowest muzzle flip.


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## Packard

snowman46919 said:


> The soul purpose for these rounds would either be trail rounds for the farm (over 100 acres) or for competition. The main reasoning behind it is to get as much backward recoil and lowest muzzle flip.


Both muzzle flip and recoil are related to the round's pressure and the weight of the bullet. True. But you cannot direct the energy to recoil from muzzle flip. The the height of the barrel line has a great effect on muzzle flip. Also the length of the barrel.

You can have the barrel ported and reduce the muzzle flip.

But why would you want to maximize recoil?


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## snowman46919

Packard said:


> Both muzzle flip and recoil are related to the round's pressure and the weight of the bullet. True. But you cannot direct the energy to recoil from muzzle flip. The the height of the barrel line has a great effect on muzzle flip. Also the length of the barrel.
> 
> You can have the barrel ported and reduce the muzzle flip.
> 
> But why would you want to maximize recoil?


I do not want to maximize recoil but redirect it. The reloaders I was talking with said in order to redirect it mostly backwards a heavier bullet is in order, since you can not change the bore axis of a gun. A lighter bullet with the same powder load will give you more muzzle flip less felt backward recoil. My SP2022 in 40 has little to no backward felt recoil for me in 165 gr fmj but a lot of muzzle flip especially in a heavier powder load. The 180 gr fmj is a bit better on muzzle flip but still little felt backwards recoil for me.


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## Packard

I cannot affirm or deny this from personal experience.

I did own a model 29 S & W (revovler, .44 magnum) with a 6" barrel. I could handle the recoil and muzzle flip easily. The muzzle flip was more in the line of causing my arms to rise after each shot.

I traded that in for a "snubbie" model 29 with a round butt and a 2-1/2" barrel. Instead of the recoil launching my arms up after each shot, it would then cause the gun to twist at my wrist. A true muzzle flip. This in turn would bruise the bone of the thumb on the web side of my hand. Those bruises would take 3 to 6 months to heal. So after one year and a few boxes of ammo I sold that weapon. 

So my experience is that the barrel length affects the radius of the muzzle flip. 

My experience is that a heavier bullet will yield a higher percieved recoil. 

I tried some 165 grain nyclad ammo in my .38 airweight (snub nose revovler) and the recoil was much worse than the 125 grain ammo from the same manufacturer. So I agree that heavier bullets yield more percieved recoil.

I don't understand the physics that would transfer the type of recoil felt by changing the bullets. Someone would have to explain that to me. (I'm not saying that it cannot happen, but I'd like to understand the science behind it before I would want to repeat it.)


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## snowman46919

If I am understanding the effects of a heavier bullet correctly it is the amount of engergy spent to propel the bullet vs. the amount of energy left over after the bullet leaves the barrel. Amount of energy spent to propel the bullet is equal to rear felt recoil, the amount of unspent energy correlates to the muzzle flip. The heavier the bullet the more energy spent to propel it the more rearward felt recoil. I believe the same theory applies to a ported barrel that alleviates excess pressure.


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## Packard

I think that the length of the barrel is the controlling factor. If the barrel is long enough that the powder has fully burned before the projectile leaves the barrel then there is no energy to devote to flip. 

But why would the energy caused by the unburned powder cause the weapon to flip?


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## snowman46919

Packard said:


> I think that the length of the barrel is the controlling factor. If the barrel is long enough that the powder has fully burned before the projectile leaves the barrel then there is no energy to devote to flip.
> 
> But why would the energy caused by the unburned powder cause the weapon to flip?


Barrel length is not a variant I can change here so it is a moot point. The only thing I can change in this scenario is load variations. The basic function of the semi auto provides that the barrel tilts slightly upward during cycling that is why we get muzzle flip versus a 1911 gets mostly a push backwards.


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## zhurdan

Muzzle flip is a component of grip, bore axis and ft/lbs of energy. Newton's third law "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" (vectors) rules the day here. If you add more mass, you add pressure. That's why powder charges have to be tailored to the weight of the bullet. Too heavy a bullet with too big a charge, you get a pressure spike and your gun does a come-a-part. That's why heavier bullets are slower for the most part. 

I can't for the life of me understand how they get the same velocity with a 200g bullet as most companies and reloading manuals get out of a 180g bullet. Not saying they can't/don't, just that I don't see how they are not blowing up guns.

Anyways, recoil management is mitigated more thru proper form (grip and stance) and bore axis. It has nothing to do with unburned powder.


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## zhurdan

snowman46919 said:


> Barrel length is not a variant I can change here so it is a moot point. The only thing I can change in this scenario is load variations.* The basic function of the semi auto provides that the barrel tilts slightly upward during cycling that is why we get muzzle flip versus a 1911* gets mostly a push backwards.


This is incorrect. Please see my other post in this thread. The bullet and the resulting gasses are long gone before the unlocking process and barrel tilt.

Goto 0:43 seconds on this vid. You can't see flash until after the bullet has left the barrel.


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## Packard

A physics engineer gets in a long discussion of muzzle flip (with formulae). See: Low bore axis isn't important in reducing muzzle flip!!!! - Page 4 - TheFiringLine Forums


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## Packard

zhurdan said:


> ...I can't for the life of me understand how they get the same velocity with a 200g bullet as most companies and reloading manuals get out of a 180g bullet. Not saying they can't/don't, just that I don't see how they are not blowing up guns...


Either they are overly optimistic with their numbers or they are exceeding the pressures that they should not, or they have specially formulated powders that allow this. It could be any one of these things. But I've hears nothing about Double Tap blowing up guns. I have heard that Double Tap can no longer use the brand name on the bullets that they are using. Presuably because they are driving the projectiles above what the manufacturer thinks is a prudent velocity.

But Double Tap brought to life the 10mm. Before them (and a couple of others like Buffalo Bore) the 10mm was nothing more than .40 caliber plus P.

And they don't price their stuff as exotic ammo. The prices are not too bad.


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## zhurdan

Packard said:


> A physics engineer gets in a long discussion of muzzle flip (with formulae). See: Low bore axis isn't important in reducing muzzle flip!!!! - Page 4 - TheFiringLine Forums


Didn't really want to get _that_ deep into it, but ok. Notice I said earlier "Anyways, recoil management is mitigated more thru proper form (grip and stance) and bore axis." I never stated that bore axis was the sole source of recoil mitigation. They are all part of a system. Each portion of the system relates to Newtons 3rd law. You can't get rid of recoil, but you CAN vector it. Proper stance and grip take care of a lot of this vectoring.

I'm no engineer, but four years of college physics and 30 years of shooting tell me that bore axis is a _component_ of recoil and muzzle flip, I'll say it again to be clear it is a _*component*_ of recoil and muzzle flip. How can I say this with certainty? Because any time you change something within a system without a corresponding balance in the force equation, the vectors WILL change. This includes if you change your grip/stance as well. They system has changed, so the resulting vectors will change.


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## Packard

But my question was can you re-distribute the recoil vs. muzzle flip ratio by changing the weights of the bullet?

I could find nothing on line to explain that.


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## zhurdan

Personally, I think that's all a bunch of marketing bullship. Pick a round, learn to shoot it. Drive on. There are literally millions of ways to separate a fool from their money. Claiming that this whizbang will do this that or the other so that someone "thinks" they'll be a better shooter totally negates the skill argument we agreed upon in another thread. People like an easy out.


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## snowman46919

I appreciate the input I finally got. I went mostly off of what I was told by re-loaders and relayed it here to get some more information. I am not a fool and I am not soon parted with my money as I haven't ordered this ammo because I have a lot of the same questions that have been stated here. Theory of course isn't worth a wooden nickel versus actual experience. I don't really have a challenge with recoil but always looking to improve. I also know that some of their 10mm ammo that claims to be 200 grain has been pulled and is actually 180. I think I will just steer clear of this ammo and keep practicing.


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## Packard

There is a forum devoted entirely to 10mm guns and ammo. If you Google "10mm forums" you will find it. 

Within those fora you will read that the originator of Double Tap is some sort of high priest of re-loading. (Apparently he is regarded as an extremely gifted re-loader, able to coax more performance out of rounds than the big manufacturers are.)

It is a fun read, especially the ballistics charts (one very light bullet at 1700 fps generated 850 pound feet of energy at the muzzle!).

At any rate it is worth taking a look. If you shoot a Glock it is reassuring that the same basic construction that goes into your 9mm, .40, .45 can withstand the working pressures that these guys are subjecting the model 29 to. Amazing.


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