# To hell with the apologists



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Finally some hardcore traditional American sense blown into the picture of radical Islamist provocations and those who prefer to lay claim to the idea that "Yes we have a First Amendment but that doesn't mean we need to practice it" crowd. This man is dead on correct... the apologists should stand in the corner with their faces to the wall in shame.

Country music legend: Islamists always provoked


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Yet another opinion piece that parallels 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. I've decided to label the practice "hyperbolic thinking". Folks really ought to get the details right - even when they're bandleaders.


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Charlie is spot on, so is Pam. If you don't like that - tough.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I think that Daniels is right on track about the Islamist savages. When do you hear any of their ilk decry the barbaric acts of those who follow this religion. I think that we should do onto them as they do to us except by a factor of ten. If their are any Muslims offended by this I suggest you take a look at yourself and the religion that you practice.

GW


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## GETCHERGUN (Oct 6, 2014)

Some people refuse to admit evil exsists so they can avoid doing anything about it.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Ignorance is no excuse for bigotry - only a cause.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

There is not such a thing than radical Islam. That is a word invention of liberals and their media to pretend that there would be 2 Islams.
No sir there is only one Islam and that is the authentic Islam. Islamist like the one living in the US, are not practicing Islam until they have a certain number in a certain area. What means that the Islamistic youth lives blend in before they get pulled into it. 
When the Muslimist have a certain number in % in a area than they practicing Islam and not before. That is Taquia tactics and works since Muslimism exists. Otherwise the middle east would be never Muslimistic, they where christians and jews before. When they have reached a certain population rate, than not even the military goes in anymore when there is a ignorant liberal in power. How many of that Now go Zones in all European nations are there, where Islam was moderate when they didn't reach 20% of the population in a area? And Europe is the best example for it. Try to go after the year 2006 go to London, Edinborrow, Paris, Marseille, Nice, Rome, Modena, Ancona, Berlin, Koeln, Duisburg, Frankfurt and and and. There the liberals told everyone too there would be 2 different Islams. A moderate and a fundamentalistic islam. Now the Europeans know how many Islam there are. One 1, unoi, ein Islam. The authentic Islam nothing else. 

Saying there would be a moderate and a radicval Islam would be the same than saying there is a moderate and a radical Nazi. But liberals actually do that. They claim Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and all the other Mass Murderer would be conservative and not liberals. 

Islam is not radical, Taliban, Hamas, the new alliances of the Liberals in Europ and the US government are like ISIS just normal practice in Islam. It is just authentic Islam where the Moslem reached 18-20% of the population. Mohamed himself said in the Hadiths that Muslim should migrate in the countries of their neighbors and should not practice Islm until a certain amount of muslemic population is reached. it called taquia.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

hillman said:


> Yet another opinion piece that parallels 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. I've decided to label the practice "hyperbolic thinking". Folks really ought to get the details right - even when they're bandleaders.


Hahaha....
A question. Do you get paid to tell the people that kind of nonsense? I mean Obama, the Clintons and the others they get Millions and Millions paid to make Islamic propaganda from the Muslim Brotherhood and the Saudi Arabian King. So I'll think it is legitimate to ask you that question.

Ignorance is a choice not something what happen to people.

But to write that this band leader didn't make them familiar with facts is a effront to all peace loving people left and right the isle. Do you feel any shame writing this at all?
Do you know how many people get tortured, killed, forced to get married in a age below 8 years etc.. etc.. even since the Muslim reached the 20% mak of population in Europe. I only talk about liberal Europe and not about the Middle East, Africa, Asia or Australia.

You know Ignorance is a choice not something that just happen to you. Ever read the Hadiths or less important the Qur'an? Ever?

Well I learned also around the world, that liberals are unable to feel any shame when it comes to spread their agenda.

I did study Islam.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

hillman said:


> Ignorance is no excuse for bigotry - only a cause.


You're right. These Islamist are both ignorant and bigoted.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

PT, I am not surprised to learn that you think it's stupid to get the details right. That those particular other folks here agree with you _is_ somewhat surprising. Well, "live and learn", the saying goes. Or not, it's really a matter of choice, eh?


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

The bigotry has been coming from the other side for ages. Not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are Muslims. Hillman, is there something that you need to share with those of us who have surprised you? What are these details that we have gotten wrong? PT doesn't speak for me, but I can't argue with the points he made. My point of view is obvious. Do me a favor and share yours,

GW


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

It appears more and more Americans are buying into "Thoughts of Having a Utopian Society"...

There never will be Utopia as long as there are human beings on earth.......

People in families can not get along with each other, there is the 'left' and 'right' that can not get along, there is the democratic and republican parties that can not get along, abortionists and anti-abortionists that can not get along, gun rights and anti-gun rights folks that can not get along, etc., etc......

And the American buzz now days is we all need to get along, do not offend anyone or their view/beliefs....... Its never going to happen and all its doing is dividing America deeper and deeper and the end result will be its destruction as we used to know America.....


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

The world is divided by boundary lines for a reason. It is so that people may separate into the groups that they prefer, and hopefully live in peaceful co-existence until one group grows strong enough to overwhelm the other. Find some recorded history that indicates otherwise. Go ahead...I'll wait.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> hillman
> PT, I am not surprised to learn that you think it's stupid to get the details right.


Hummm hillman... I always open to learn. I don't say its stupid to get the facts. I said you are unwilling to get the details and the facts in exchange for a political correct agenda. You are a Islamistic propagandist in my book. Ignorance is not bliss, it is a choice. If you would tell me where I am wrong, what facts I get wrong about Islam and you can prove it with facts I will honestly look into it. But I studied Muslimism what is Jiihadism or also Islam. I say it again. Islam is the Word for a form of Government that contains a religion or uses an old egypt god to justify their elitistic existence. Islam is the Saudi Arab Word for that government construct. But in the Area of Persia they call it Jiihadism. It is absolutely the same, only a different word in a different language for the same form of government. In Turkey they call it Muslimism. The Word was created by the Nord European when the turks conquered Europe. 3 Words, 3 Languages but it means absolutely the same. Only the Liberals pretend there would be 3 different religions or at least 3 groups of people to hide the fact what Islam/Jiihadism/Muslimism really is by using 3 languages to lead the people astray. Yes there are a lot of oil money that comes as kick back to bank accounts in the caribic or Switzerland and the party donations depend on oil money from that region too. BTW both sides need that money otherwise Saudi Arabia, where actually all the Terrorist get their training, money and equipment from, would not be our alliances. But that only on the side.

And don't get me wrong. 9/11 a topic for memorial Day, happen and the liberals find it a great Idea to build the Cordoba Mosque next to the bombings on ground zero where so many diet for the liberals political correct Islam. Does any liberals even care for facts? Do the liberals even want to know what Cordoba stand for? Cordoba is a City in Spain Europe that the Muslims under Ottoman have conquered. They build in Cordoba a Mosque as a sign for the victory and enslavement over the non-believers. 68 Millions of Spaniards, Basks, France were killed in that Mosque in honor of Muhamad. Liberals should go to the historic monuments to see what Cordoba stand for. Cordoba is in the Muslim world today one of the highest holidays there is. All around the Islamic World from Africa to Asia and all countries that Muslims having more than 15% of population is the Cordoba day celebrated as the victory over the non believer enemy. The liberals in New York and the Muslims find it good to celebrate the Cordoba Day in the Cordoba Mosque erected next to ground zero to celebrate the Islamic victory. But the liberals to ignorant to want to know what Cordoba, the Cordoba Mosque even is all about. Does a liberal even care what they exactly celebrating? They say it is a sign for peace. Islamic peace and liberals dancing of the death bodies of the non believers.
And you terll me I don't get the details and the facts?

And I am sorry hillman. You really want to accuse me to ignore facts.
If this is your point then I call you a fundamental Islamistic/Jiihadistic/Muslimistic propagandist or at least a islamistic lobbyist. And my question is than legitimate if you get paid for doing that.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Um, I'm really not hoping to have the last word here, PT (that doesn't seem at all likely). I'll just say that I am none of those things you accuse me of being - not even a 'liberal'. I live on a monthly Social Security check, a small pension from the (now nonexistent) company I worked for, and am drawing down my IRA (that last in large part to pay for my 'gunner' habit).

Have a nice day.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> Bisley
> The world is divided by boundary lines for a reason.


You could not be more right. Borders are protection line for culture differences, economic reasons and are a warrant for liberty of the people.
Liberals say they want Multi Cultural Societies. Hitler Stalin, etc. as true wanted that to. But what they really want is a mono culture. Everyone have to be equal in poverty. Liberalism is the most inhuman form of life that a sick mind have ever invented.
Hitler want to create a World of the Arisch people. Stalin wanted to create the new Russian race. Mao and Pol Pot wanted the same. They always have different words but mean always the same.
The Soviet Union did not work because the people could look across the border and see that people outside liberalism actually don'y have to life in deep poverty and fear from their government.

The liberals want to get rid of borders and nations so the people can't see anymore that liberalism is the most diabolic system that any sick sadist could invent. Where no borders people can't compare.
The say they want Multi Cultures but if you look close, it is the same old Hitler, Stalin, Mao, PolPot rasism again. Today they call that social engineering. I suggest some should google what that really means. They say Multi Culti, want to get rid of Nations and cultures to create a one world slavery in favor of about 2000 Oligarch Dynasties on Earth.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

PT111Pro,

I try to follow your posts and am impressed with your experience and knowledge. I can tell you are a smart man, but your automatic spellcheck and puncuation is letting you down. Sometimes another proof read is in order. Other than that, I applaud you.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

hillman I am not accusing you for anything.
I ask questions.
But when you tell people that they don't have their facts straight or ignoring facts and detail you better know what the hell you talking about. It comes back and hunts you.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

goldwing said:


> The bigotry has been coming from the other side for ages. Not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are Muslims. Hillman, is there something that you need to share with those of us who have surprised you? What are these details that we have gotten wrong? PT doesn't speak for me, but I can't argue with the points he made. My point of view is obvious. Do me a favor and share yours,
> 
> GW


OK. Just accept that I am not philosophically a communist, socialist, fascist, libertarian, or any of those other 'flavors' that must be out there. I am neither liberal nor conservative. I am pretty much forced to be a centrist, because from here it's a_ little_ easier to see both ways and recognize the edifices that are built on foundations of speculation, propaganda and other sorts of smoke. The closer to the extremes of 'left & right', the thicker the smoke gets. The miasma seems to have poisoned the reason of the folks that dwell there.

That's my 'viewpoint'. On specific issues:

Muslims & Terrorists:

When I was a younger man, the term was "Mohammedism" - or Mohammedanism, don't remember for sure. Anyway, they weren't the leaders of the Terrorist Hit Parade back then. There were several flavors of Communists, maybe or maybe not including the Khmer Rouge; miserable bastards, anyway. The Muslim (I'll switch to the current label) doctrine has - historically - regarded Christians and Jews as "brothers of the Book". That didn't mean that Christian-controlled regions (the Jews didn't have any of those) shouldn't be conquered, it meant that Christians and Jews would not be required to convert, and that they could live in peace under Muslim rule.

That's as close as traditional Islam gets to the jihadists we have today. The question I have to ask myself, is how can the non-jihad Muslims be differentiated from those other people. Because lumping them together just creates an amalgam, and that ain't good for anybody but the jihadists.

This post is too long already. My story can wait.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

PT111Pro said:


> hillman I am not accusing you for anything.
> I ask questions.
> But when you tell people that they don't have their facts straight or ignoring facts and detail you better know what the hell you talking about. It comes back and hunts you.


"And I am sorry hillman. You really want to accuse me to ignore facts.
If this is your point than I call you a fundamental Islamistic/Jiihadistic/Muslimistic propagandist. And my question is than legitimate if you get paid for that."

Say what, PT?


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Hillman, I looks like you have the early parts of the Quran correct; People of the Book, even Jews were at first considered Brothers to islam.

But then when Christians and Jews stood fast in their faith, they changed to enemies. The basic confession of Christ as Emanuel - God with Us, was labeled an abomination and condemned most highly.

For the most part the hadiths clarified the issue and said there are no imitations, its either Allah and his prophet Muhammod or nothing. 

To protect Islamic faith and defend earlier references to brothers in faith, the requirements were clarified - so long as what you do and confess agrees with islam you're ok.

Christians were relabeled Paulist, and Jews were made lower than dirt. Their existence was allowed only where profitable through tax income or power influence.


Real islam is what we are seeing in both violence to each other as well as the rest of the world. 
Those who advocate peace, compassion, acceptance ... love... are the radicals.

And real islam will use them as pawns, through violence, deceit, or just high birth rates, for the goal of islam is domination through every method possible.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

You have sources and dates? I am not a scholar - in anything; just a rather voracious reader. I have read that during the time much of Andalusia was under Moslem rule, Christians and Jews live in peace there, and that such was the case in Sicily when Robert the Norman came. Even in Palestine circa 1900, Christians and Jews were tolerated - except for the occasional pogrom. Modern Morocco (officially at least) has expressed pride in its religious tolerance.

I am not at all denying the existence of jihad; that would be evidence of insanity -as is jihad itself. What I am trying to understand is the nature of the details in the 'big picture'.

Why western European countries (and the UK) have failed to control immigration is a different question; not the one I'm wondering about here.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

I have friends who are missionaries in Turkey. I have studied the Quran and apologetics with muslims. Although history includes times of co-existence, there has also been bloodshed.
We sent Marines Tripoli [1800's] because of mohammudism. Today times they are a - changing.

The primary change is a rise in Islamic fundamentalism. More and more, muslims are going back to their Quran and Hadith and actually reading them.
No doubt years of economic pressure from the industrialized world has created a bitter flavor toward countries like the EU and US.

Perhaps it's a sense of nationalism - the Ottoman Empire and its greatness - that many muslim nations want to re-gain.

But I also suspect the leadership of countries like Saudi have estranged themselves to the point that the poorest now see them as enemies, moreover, American funded enemies that have 
oppressed the common people and denied islam itself.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

If you take away the terrorism, and the outright hatred of any religion other than their own, you are still left with savages who mutilate women as a right of passage. They cover them in burkas and stone them to death for things that aren't even a misdemeanor in civilized countries. Honor killings are still going on in Muslim communities here in the U.S. Sorry, but I see no common ground between myself and these "people". They are determined to take us down, and our so called leadership dithers and talks about global warming being our greatest threat. My rant is over.....for now.

GW


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

goldwing said:


> If you take away the terrorism, and the outright hatred of any religion other than their own, you are still left with savages who mutilate women as a right of passage. They cover them in burkas and stone them to death for things that aren't even a misdemeanor in civilized countries. Honor killings are still going on in Muslim communities here in the U.S. Sorry, but I see no common ground between myself and these "people". They are determined to take us down, and our so called leadership dithers and talks about global warming being our greatest threat. My rant is over.....for now.
> 
> GW


Could be. My question is: Do you *know* what you are talking about?


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

CW said:


> I have friends who are missionaries in Turkey. I have studied the Quran and apologetics with muslims. Although history includes times of co-existence, there has also been bloodshed.
> We went sent Marines Tripoli [1800's] because of mohammudism. Today times they are a - changing.
> 
> The primary change is a rise in Islamic fundamentalism. More and more, muslims are going back to their Quran and Hadith and actually reading them.
> ...


I read a substantial amount of the Koran (the Oxford translation, in a blue plastic cover) over half a century ago. Must be I didn't get to that part.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

hillman said:


> Could be. My question is: Do you *know* what you are talking about?


I am not a student of the Quran. I have not lived amongst the Muslims, nor do I want to. I have watched the news for years and years and I have paid attention. I have seen stories of people being beheaded and burned alive. I mistakenly watched a video that was emailed to me showing these peaceful Muslims shoot a middle aged women wearing a head scarf and long robes in the head because she dared to show her face in public. If all of these things are somehow fictitious, and I have been duped, then no I don't know what I am talking about. Maybe you could clear things up for me Hillman.

GW


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

In my opinion I think political correctness in some of these cases is confused with not giving them what they want. The terrorist want to inflict terror and panic. When they attack us in some way they want to create a panic that cause more damage than the initial act. For example the Wall street sell off after 9/11 caused severe financial setbacks. They didn't do that we did that to ourselves after the fact. There would be nothing greater for these cowards than to be talked about on every news channel 24/7 about how terrifying they are.

The religious part is just a tool used by the higher ups, much like a cult. The real goal is money and power.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Looks like there is no (pardon the expression) rationextion-conecxion available here. Bon voyage, dudes.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Another way to look at it:

There are 'backsliders' in every religion - those who have lost heir faith, or never had it in the first place. These are the people who more or less keep up the appearance of being religious by going to services occasionally, but are corrupt when it comes to strict adherence. This is completely human, and normal, and all the religions have to try to keep their people 'in the fold.' There is no punishment for this in most of the world's religions, beyond excommunication in some form, or shunning to some extent. Catholics and Christians mostly just try to convince backsliders to return to their faith by persuasion and acts of kindness.

Not so, in Islam. There is Sharia law that is adhered to by even those who denounce the terrorists. There is physical punishment that is expected to be applied by family members or clerics for denouncing Islam. A Muslim may not simply walk away from his religion - he can run away, but he better run fast and far to a place that will protect him from retribution. It's like a person escaping from East Berlin during the Cold War - it can be done, but it's dangerous, and those who succeed do it by cutting all former ties and disappearing, maybe even changing identities and nationalities. It's like a 'deal with the devil,' as is depicted in hundreds of years of literature, or belonging to the mafia in its heyday - once in there is no getting out.

This, alone, is a realistic argument, based on real-time evidence. One does not have to conduct theological studies to figure this out, unless he wants to find an excuse not to condemn it.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

hillman said:


> Looks like there is no (pardon the expression) rationextion-conecxion available here. Bon voyage, dudes.


Hello hillman. Since I feel guilty that you feel so bad, I want to apology to you. I don't feel guilty to say what I had to say but the way I presented it was wrong.
Please stay - I value you as a member of this forum.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

PT111Pro said:


> Hello hillman. Since I feel guilty that you feel so bad, I want to apology to you. I don't feel guilty to say what I had to say but the way I presented it was wrong.
> Please stay - I value you as a member of this forum.


Thanks. PT. I'm not leaving the forum, just that conversation - which started drifting as soon as it left the dock.


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