# .45 Carry Pistol



## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

My carry pistol is a Springfield XD .40, a good gun which I've been happy with. My home defense pistol is a 1911 in .45. Ever since I bought the 1911 I don't want to shoot anything else. So here's my dilemma I really want to switch to a .45 for a carry but I am not comfortable carrying cocked and locked which leaves out carrying the 1911, and as far as I'm concerned if you're not carrying one in the barrel you may as well not be carrying at all. I've been looking at the Springfield XDS, the Sig P220 Carry, and the S&W M&P45c with the thumb safety. Anyone have any inputs on these? Good or bad experiences? Any other makes and models I might want to consider that I'm not thinking of?


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## Philco (Apr 17, 2012)

I carried a Ruger P345 up until I switched over to a CZ Rami. It's a highly reliable .45 ACP pistol that can be carried with the safety engaged or if you prefer (and are comfortable with it) you can carry it without the safety engaged with the hammer down. It is a Double/Single action with decocker safety.  I was very comfortable carrying it. It's approximately the size of a Combat Commander but the polymer frame makes it managable weight wise. The P345 is no longer in production but if you look around a bit, I'm confident you can still find one for a reasonable price. (I paid $370 for mine used a couple of years ago.) In my opinion it's a lot of gun for the money.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks Philco, I'll check it out.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, all the pistols you mentioned are certainly fine weapons. I understand your hesitation with carrying cocked and locked, but it is perfectly safe depending on your position of carry. That said, I would stick with what I am most comfortable with. I guess the question is what size frame do you want to tote all day, which of course is totally up to what you feel comfortable with. 

Some other models to consider would be the Glock 30 & 36, HK 45c, FN makes a nice but large 45, and the M&P45 4" barrel is also a nice option. It gives you the full grip, just with the 4" barrel. I like the look of the CZ97, but it is a large gun as well. I have the CZ75, so I can vouch for the quality. It's a great pistol. 

Now wrt external safeties, I always advise getting a pistol without it. The only time you need it is on the single action, cocked and locked models such as the 1911 or BHP. My CZ75 has the option of carrying cocked and locked, but it isn't possible when the hammer is down. You don't need an external safety on the gun unless it is a single action. Your finger off the trigger is the only safety you "need". When I have to pull my weapon, I don't want anything slowing me down, no extra steps, no drag. Just pull pull. Hope this helps!


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Badger68 said:


> My carry pistol is a Springfield XD .40, a good gun which I've been happy with. My home defense pistol is a 1911 in .45. Ever since I bought the 1911 I don't want to shoot anything else. So here's my dilemma I really want to switch to a .45 for a carry but I am not comfortable carrying cocked and locked which leaves out carrying the 1911, and as far as I'm concerned if you're not carrying one in the barrel you may as well not be carrying at all. I've been looking at the Springfield XDS, the Sig P220 Carry, and the S&W M&P45c with the thumb safety. Anyone have any inputs on these? Good or bad experiences? Any other makes and models I might want to consider that I'm not thinking of?


If you've been carrying an XD 40 with one in the chamber, you're already carrying cocked and somewhat locked.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TurboHonda said:


> If you've been carrying an XD 40 with one in the chamber, you're already carrying cocked and somewhat locked.


Not exactly. There is no cocked and locked with a striker fired pistol like the single action pistol. Not even close.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Try a Kahr P45. Nice small concealable unit, but due to small size, recoil is a definite issue. If you can handle that, it's a super carry gun in a 45 and price wise probably around what you'll pay for the Ruger 345. The problem will be that you will notice a lot more recoil as compared to any 1911 frame. It probably wont' be your favorite for the range, but it conceals pretty easily.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> Not exactly. There is no cocked and locked with a striker fired pistol like the single action pistol. Not even close.


Oh, excuse me. I said cocked. I meant to say the striker is retracted and under spring tension and waiting to be released. But, since you can't see it, it's much safer. Right.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Actually, yes, it is. See below link:

http://us.glock.com/technology/safe-action

The single action 1911 does not have these safety features, and while the XD is not a Glock, the features are similar, excep the XD has a grip safety. Either way, both are inherently safer than the "cocked and locked" system of the 1911.

Don't get me wrong. I love the 1911. I think it is one of the best designs ever invented, and when properly trained on the weapon, it is perfectly safe to carry "cocked and locked". It's just that some folks aren't comfortable with it. I understand that! But the fact is that the striker fire safety systems are safer. That's all I meant.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

If you like the XD 40, why not buy the XDM .45 Compact 3.8? The Glock G30 is also another good choice. If you buy the Springfield before Oct. 31 of this year you can take advantage of their "Gear up" program and they will send you 3 free magazines and magazine holder.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

GCBHM said:


> Actually, yes, it is. See below link:
> 
> Our ?Safe Action?® System. Always safe and always ready. | GLOCK USA
> 
> ...


I'll have to disagree. People visually see the hammer cocked on a 1911. And think that's not safe !


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

You're welcome to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Regardless of what people see or don't see, the striker fire system is a safer system than the cocked and locked system. Personally, I think the 1911 is perfectly safe cocked and locked, but it does not have a firing pin block in its original design, or a drop safety. Granted, you can't just hit the trigger without depressing the grip safety, but the fact that the striker fire safe action system is safer still remains.


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## oldranger53 (Jun 10, 2012)

I haven't read any other responses yet, but here's an input.
If you want to carry a .45 I applaud your choice (although I don't currently own one-but have in the past and plan on another one soon).

Cocked and locked, as you say, is part of the .45 experience. I recommend adjusting your personal habits to include greater awareness of your .45 in the cocked and locked condition, and grow in skill and soldiership as required to carry it confidently.
That's just me though. There's plenty of guns out there that will shoot the .45acp round but only 1911s are what they are. They do require adjustments in clothing, skill, and attitude.

Thus is merely my input and opinion, but it's really what I believe. YMMV


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

GCBHM:
Indeed the 1911 is perfectly safe cocked and locked, the question is if someone would remember to disengage it in an emergency? You also see many people carrying them cocked and locked in a holster that has a strap that blocks the hammer. This would also have to be disengaged. I have four 1911's just because I like them, but prefer to carry the striker fired pistols while going about my daily business. I usually carry an S&W Governor and a some sort of semi auto .45 while out in the desert or on the hiking trails. We have open carry out here and to some who are not used to it, mostly tourists from out of state, and not knowing anything about guns the sight of a cocked pistol can be unnerving.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

oldranger53:
Great points! And well stated.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah, you tend to see those who are less familiar with guns freaking out when they see any gun "cocked". They think things that just are not so. I have no issues carrying the 1911 on matters of safety. I love the gun, and know it is safe and reliable. It's just heavy and does not have the capacity of the newer models, although I carry a 9mm for maximum capacity. Now, some of the newer and updated model 1911s do have a firing pin block safety, but I know a lot of the "real" 1911ers prefer the original design to this. There is just something about the original design. Hey...it has worked for a really long time.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Regardless of the type of semi-automatic pistol carried, Jeff Cooper's condition numbers will apply to most, if the term hammer down/hammer cocked is changed to include striker relaxed/striker retracted. 



Condition Four: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down. 
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down. 
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

In terms of readiness, most Single Action and Safe Action pistols are carried in Condition One. DAO and DA/SA will usually be carried in Condition Two. Some folks, for whatever reason, will determine that safety dictates the weapon be carried in Condition Three or Four. In actual use, whether a defense condition or practice, the weapon must be changed from its carry condition to Condition Zero.

Here's the problem. After the Condition Zero situation is over, what is the procedure for returning the weapon to the pre-determined Safe Carry Condition? What mental and physical gymnastics must be accomplished? When that is factored in, the term "Safety" takes on a whole new meaning.

I believe that some knowledgeable shooters don't carry the 1911 just because they don't want to deal with the casual and uninformed observer.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TurboHonda said:


> Regardless of the type of semi-automatic pistol carried, Jeff Cooper's condition numbers will apply to most, if the term hammer down/hammer cocked is changed to include striker relaxed/striker retracted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does this change the fact that carrying a striker fire pistol is not the same as carrying a 1911 cocked and locked?


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> How does this change the fact that carrying a striker fire pistol is not the same as carrying a 1911 cocked and locked?


My last sentence summed it up.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't see it. The OP stated clearly that he isn't comfortable carrying "cocked & locked", which has nothing to do with why others don't like to carry it. I don't disagree with your last statement, although I do believe most who do not carry the 1911 do not like the "cocked & locked" b/c it makes them feel uncomfortable, which is why they don't carry it. That said, I understand your original statement, but still...it is not accurate. The pistols are two totally different designs altogether.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

It doesn't bother me personally to carry the 1911's cocked and locked, although open carry is allowed where I live, I prefer to carry concealed while out in public. I have single action semi auto's (1911's, SIG P238) SA/DA semi auto's (CZ, Beretta, SIG, S&W, PPK) one DAO semi auto (NA Gaurdian) and striker fired (Glock, Kahr, Kimber and Springfield). For everyday carry I prefer the striker fired pistols as they have the same consistent trigger pull and there are no external safeties to fumble with, with the exception of the Kimber Solo should one choose to use it. There are no features to return the weapon to "safe" condition. It returns to "safe" after the first shot is fired. Single action semi auto's are indeed quite dangerous if one forgets to engage the safety, or if it becomes accidentally disengaged. Same for SA/DA's, if the user forgets to engage the safety. At least with the SA/DA's once the safety is on the hammer drops and the firing pin is blocked. Usually it requires more effort to disengage than on the SA's. You also have the option of carrying it with the safety "off". Indeed all four designs are different. SA/DA semi auto's require a bit more practice in order to overcome the initial long trigger pull and the transition to single action. They also require the user to engage the safety after the weapon is fired to return it to a "safe" condition, unless it's a double action only semi auto. The DAO semi auto has a long heavy trigger pull for each shot. In my opinion after using and carrying all four types, and for these reasons today's striker fired pistols are the way to go.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I agree DM. Well stated.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The best feeling .45ACP I own is my M&P full size with a 4 inch barrel. I installed the Apex Tactical DCAEK but kept the OEM factory trigger spring for a superb 4 pound 12 ounce trigger that breaks very much like a 1911. This gun is just amazing in the hand.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

I like the Glock 30. 10+1 of .45 ACP HP, with an extra 13rd mag, I feel pretty well armed.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

It's a fine offering indeed. One of the smoothest shooting pistols I've ever shot.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

I carry a 1911a1 every day cocked and locked. the next best thing to grip feel and point of aim would be a Colt double Eagle it is a da/sa 45 acp that has a decocker and are good reliable pistols. No they are not still in production but are out there. I had 1 state that I worked in that I could not carry C&L so I got the Double Eagle after I got comfortable with it I carried it while I was working, after I was back to 1911a1.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks for the inputs everyone. I don't know if I was clear or not in my original post but I'm not against carrying the 1911 cocked and locked, I am just not personally comfortable doing it. At least not yet. Thanks again.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

I carry on my right side towards the back pocket. I also have a shoulder holster for the winter when I'm wearing a jacket but I don't often use it. I personally think the overall safety of any weapon depends more on the person than the gun itself. Maybe after I feel more confident carrying the 1911 loaded I may change my mind but right now I'd rather have something striker fired. Granted, the P220 carry has a hammer as well but it also has a de-cocker. The biggest draw back to that one in my mind is the 10lb pull when firing DA.

My XD .40 is the 4" barrel and I can carry that around all day without any discomfort so I'd look for something around that size.


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## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Kimber 45 ACP ultra carry CDP. cocked and locked.. three safeties to bypass before a round can go off. pulling the trigger being # 3.
Big Bang, Big Bang, Big Hole. 
Easy to carry in the pocket.. The most formidable weapon I've carried in 40 years of personal carry.










Carried in the left pocket.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Badger68:
It sounds like the XDM Compact .45 3.8 would be the one for you. I have both, the only difference is the caliber and barrel length, the grip frames are practically identical. The XDM has interchangeable back straps and you do not have to pull the trigger in order to field strip the pistol. The barrel is only .8 longer than the XD 40. The 1911's are perfectly safe to carry cocked and locked. That is if the safety does stay on. You also have the half cock notch on the hammer, not enough in my opinion to rely on. If the safety is "off" on a 1911 the trigger pull is much lighter than on a striker fired pistol and the risk of an accidental discharge is greater. The issue that I have is that in case of emergency would you remember to dis-engage the safety or re-engage it after all hostilities have ended. Before I decided to carry a striker fired pistol I've practiced drawing and dis-engaging the safety on the 1911, and even though I felt that I had it down pat, there was still that doubt. I once had the safety dis-engage by accident while the pistol was holstered which I'm guessing was from getting in and out of my truck. However this particular pistol has an ambidextrous safety. I have since not carried it for personal protection as there are better choices out there. With the SA/DA's as you've stated they do have a long heavy trigger pull for the first shot, that's the shot that counts the most. I say go for the Springfield as you are already familiar with it, if not there are other good striker fired pistols to choose from. As much as I like the 1911 it is still a somewhat antiquated design.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Badger68 said:


> I carry on my right side towards the back pocket. I also have a shoulder holster for the winter when I'm wearing a jacket but I don't often use it. I personally think the overall safety of any weapon depends more on the person than the gun itself. Maybe after I feel more confident carrying the 1911 loaded I may change my mind but right now I'd rather have something striker fired. Granted, the P220 carry has a hammer as well but it also has a de-cocker. The biggest draw back to that one in my mind is the 10lb pull when firing DA.
> 
> My XD .40 is the 4" barrel and I can carry that around all day without any discomfort so I'd look for something around that size.


Yeah, I think the biggest drawback to those pistols like the Sig P220 is the DA pull. I had a SAO P220, and that thing was smooth! It has aluminum grips, and it just seemed to cling to my hand. Wish I had that one back, but I do agree the SA trigger of a good 1911 is special. Probably the best available, IMO.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> Kimber 45 ACP ultra carry CDP. cocked and locked.. three safeties to bypass before a round can go off. pulling the trigger being # 3.
> Big Bang, Big Bang, Big Hole.
> Easy to carry in the pocket.. The most formidable weapon I've carried in 40 years of personal carry.
> 
> ...


That's a sweet little gun for sure.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

A properly fitted holster is important. If your holster is disengaging the safety, you are not using the proper holster in most situations . 
When your carrying a firearm concealed ,,training plays a big part.
You know to move your shirt or outer garment out of the way to access the gun.

Why? is disengaging the safety an issue or concern for some.
Proper training and practice is necessary.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

GCBHM said:


> That's a sweet little gun for sure.


I favor the pocket carry also.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Pic, I like the set up that ET has. He has it down...now if I can put something similar together, I may start carrying in the pocket as well...of course, I'll be toting my little G42. What do you carry in the pocket?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

GCBHM said:


> Pic, I like the set up that ET has. He has it down...now if I can put something similar together, I may start carrying in the pocket as well...of course, I'll be toting my little G42. What do you carry in the pocket?


Currently a Glock 27 ,10 shot 40 cal. The 1911 is my primary when carried
Or a charter arms ss 44 spl bulldog 5 shot 4 inch barrel
*Pleated dark pants are great.*

I'm gonna switch out the Glock with maybe the M&P 40
I won't chamber a round,,, pocket carrying a Glock.
Btw I don't pocket the 1911. Only the 27,, and. bulldog


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## Alycat (Sep 13, 2014)

I was carrying a P938 cocked and locked and 2 months ago moved up to a Kimber Ultra Carry II cocked and locked in my right pocket. It got comfy pretty quickly.


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## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Alycat said:


> I was carrying a P938 cocked and locked and 2 months ago moved up to a Kimber Ultra Carry II cocked and locked in my right pocket. It got comfy pretty quickly.


I sometimes forget my Kimber is in my pocket when I come in from the car.. Like I said, I've been doing this for 15 years of my 40 year licensed to carry career. The only problem I ever had was drawing the weapon and having the holster come out of the pocket with the gun... I have fixed that issue and to my knowledge there isn't a pocket holster out there that offers the confidence I have in my modified Uncle Mikes Holster.

BTW that is one " Purdie " Kimber... you could shoot someone's eye out with that.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Badger, I understand the nervousness but it does go away once you put enough time on the 1911 to make it's operation instinctive. I've never missed the safety, had it go C0 before without incident, and never got 1911 leg. This is one thing I don't like about the "safe action" pistols, the alarming rate of Glock leg that still happens.

When I reholster my thumb is on the rear of the slide, not necessary because the slide is locked but it's habit. Even without the thumb safety on it can't go off because the grip safety is now engaged. Except for the XD with a grip safety, any safe action pistol can go off if anything snags the trigger. Usually "glock leg" is caused by a bonehead move but there have been other instances in the freak chance category. 

Then again freaky things happen all the time, but I feel the 1911 is one of the most safe designs made. It isn't impossible for one to go off, but shy of mechanical failure highly unlikely. The most important thing (with any gun) is proprioception of safety and manual of arms, you have to obey the safety rules and ingrain the gun's operation and handling so it becomes automatic, just like breathing. It takes time, commitment and a few bucks but if you are going to carry a gun it becomes a necessity for your safety as well as others.

They are pricey but HK makes a hell of a 45. Picking a gun can be fun, but it can also be aggrevating, good luck man.

I forgot this, but I always get a chuckle out of the C&L vs Safe Action disputes. Shooting a gun is simple- pull trigger, gun goes boom. How that happens is different but here's something to think about. Except the XD, the external safety is in the trigger (???) and once you pull the trigger the rest are over-ridden, gun goes boom. On a 1911 you must have a grip on the gun to release the trigger then make an extremely simple and natural move during the draw to knock off the safety to unblock the sear, it isn't rocket science and I personally don't understand how people screw this up- but some can't walk and chew gum at the same time too. Here's what cracks me up, sometimes they bring up the external safety that's optional on a few- aren't we back to a 1911esque operation?

Anyway, good luck again man.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I tried carrying a GP100, Stoeger Cougar (loved it) and some full sized 1911s. I've owned 6 different 1911's. Two of them were 3" and while I loved the size I just couldn't get them to run with JHP. I've also owned P220 Elite and various small pistols and revolvers. All of my CCW have been OWB, right hip. I cannot stand striker fired guns. The triggers all feel like Sponge Bob Square Pants made them. Any gun with a DA/SA trigger goes away too because I just can't hit squat with that DA first shot. Let's face it; my 1911 triggers have spoiled me. I'm hooked. 

So, my daily carry is a S&W 1911 Series 'E', 4" with Scadium frame, bobbed heal on the frame, night sites. Still holds 8+1 but is a lot lighter to carry but still shoots like a full size. What more could you ask for?

I stopped using thumb break holsters and dropped Kaydex and all other plastics a long time ago. 

I carry Condition 1. I believe that when Mr. Browning designed the 1911 he devine help. It was designed to be carried that way. In Condition 1 there are two safeties; thumb and grip. In Condition 1 I KNOW its ready to go, NOW and I can make NOT ready to go too.

If you can train yourself how to properly withdraw your pistol by the steps, there's no reason why you can't include clicking off the thumb safety.

You only need to learn ONE trigger pull, ever, and it's a very good trigger.

It's control placement can argued to be the world standard. Can you name a gun that is wildly successful that isn't built that way? Even the Europeans are learning this.

Personally, if some street bum does manage to get my gun away from me, at least I know he'll have to figure out how to get the safety off first vs. just pull the trigger.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Technically the 1911 was designed to be carried C2 or C3, the Cavalry requested the addition of the thumb safety for safer reholstering while on horseback. A lot of people don't know that.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

rex said:


> Technically the 1911 was designed to be carried C2 or C3, the Cavalry requested the addition of the thumb safety for safer reholstering while on horseback. A lot of people don't know that.


Bummer. I can see why they wanted a thumb safety. Can you imagine getting out of C0 back to C2 or C3 while riding horseback?


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah, that's pretty spooky, definitely not a one hand job.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rex said:


> Badger, I understand the nervousness but it does go away once you put enough time on the 1911 to make it's operation instinctive. I've never missed the safety, had it go C0 before without incident, and never got 1911 leg. This is one thing I don't like about the "safe action" pistols, the alarming rate of Glock leg that still happens.
> 
> When I reholster my thumb is on the rear of the slide, not necessary because the slide is locked but it's habit. Even without the thumb safety on it can't go off because the grip safety is now engaged. Except for the XD with a grip safety, any safe action pistol can go off if anything snags the trigger. Usually "glock leg" is caused by a bonehead move but there have been other instances in the freak chance category.
> 
> ...


The only time Glocks have gone off is when some guy was playing with his trigger. I've carried Glocks for years, and I have never had one go off when I didn't want it to. Now, I do agree that when you are trained properly, and have time handling it, the 1911 is as safe as any pistol out there, cocked and locked. It all just boils down to personal comfort and keeping your finger off the trigger. As long as your trigger is guarded (and you're not fooling with it) it doesn't matter if the "safety" is on or not. Now when you get into dropping, etc., that is a separate issue, but as far as proper carry, the 1911 is safe.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rex said:


> Technically the 1911 was designed to be carried C2 or C3, the Cavalry requested the addition of the thumb safety for safer reholstering while on horseback. A lot of people don't know that.


Lots of little history nuggets like that that people aren't aware of. A lot of folks forget the 1911 was actually commissioned in "1911"! LOL


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Spike12 said:


> I tried carrying a GP100, Stoeger Cougar (loved it) and some full sized 1911s. I've owned 6 different 1911's. Two of them were 3" and while I loved the size I just couldn't get them to run with JHP. I've also owned P220 Elite and various small pistols and revolvers. All of my CCW have been OWB, right hip. I cannot stand striker fired guns. The triggers all feel like Sponge Bob Square Pants made them. Any gun with a DA/SA trigger goes away too because I just can't hit squat with that DA first shot. Let's face it; my 1911 triggers have spoiled me. I'm hooked.
> 
> So, my daily carry is a S&W 1911 Series 'E', 4" with Scadium frame, bobbed heal on the frame, night sites. Still holds 8+1 but is a lot lighter to carry but still shoots like a full size. What more could you ask for?
> 
> ...


I don't know too many street bums that could figure that out, unless they're a vet. But the trigger on the 1911 is the best I'm aware of. Everyone I know who modifies their triggers always talk about it breaking like a 1911. I believe it is pretty much THE standard of fall semi-autos. I like the BHP and the CZ-75, but the 1911 set the standard. I think we'd all agree on that.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> The only time Glocks have gone off is when some guy was playing with his trigger. I've carried Glocks for years, and I have never had one go off when I didn't want it to. Now, I do agree that when you are trained properly, and have time handling it, the 1911 is as safe as any pistol out there, cocked and locked. It all just boils down to personal comfort and keeping your finger off the trigger. As long as your trigger is guarded (and you're not fooling with it) it doesn't matter if the "safety" is on or not. Now when you get into dropping, etc., that is a separate issue, but as far as proper carry, the 1911 is safe.


I agree with you with the exception of the first sentence. There was a case just a few years ago of a fellow reholstering his Glock after returning to his car because he couldn't take it in wherever he was. As he was slipping it back in the holster it went off booting one into the floorboard right by his leg. It freaked him out and couldn't believe it. Upon inspection the mouth of his holster had collapsed in and tripped the trigger.

Another case was a guy out in the woods and needed his pistol for something, this is way back maybe 20 years ago. As he was reholstering a small branch got between the trigger and holster and boom, in the ground thank God.

I had these saved on my old computer but it had a major meltdown and lost it all, I even had letterhead from a police dept. stating to others they were getting away from Glock due to problems and Glock's reply to cease and dissist or they would sue them. My computer crashed just a few days after that one and lo and behold, I spent 2 hours searching for it and it didn't exist any more-hmm. I believe the first one I ran into at the 1911 forum but I can't recall where I found the latter 2, old age tends to mess with the memory.

Anyway, these few freak incidents are the ones I was referencing but most of the time you're right, it's operator error that causes NDs. I always thumb the back of my slide when reholstering but in those 2 examples it would do nothing but hurt my thumb and whatever the bullet hit.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

police instructor shoots himself in the foot for the class - YouTube


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Negligent Discharges: Holstering - YouTube


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

pic said:


> police instructor shoots himself in the foot for the class - YouTube


I remember seeing this some time ago. He starts out with "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have a Glock 40". Then, after he shoots himself in the foot, he actually tries to salvage his presentation. He's like "don't worry folks. I do this all the time. Now, let me show you something even more dangerous."


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

1 second of carelessness with any firearm is dangerous.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

TurboHonda said:


> I remember seeing this some time ago. He starts out with "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have a Glock 40". Then, after he shoots himself in the foot, he actually tries to salvage his presentation. He's like "don't worry folks. I do this all the time. Now, let me show you something even more dangerous."


:anim_lol: that's priceless!


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rex said:


> I agree with you with the exception of the first sentence. There was a case just a few years ago of a fellow reholstering his Glock after returning to his car because he couldn't take it in wherever he was. As he was slipping it back in the holster it went off booting one into the floorboard right by his leg. It freaked him out and couldn't believe it. *Upon inspection the mouth of his holster had collapsed in and tripped the trigger. *
> 
> Another case was a guy out in the woods and needed his pistol for something, this is way back maybe 20 years ago. As he was reholstering *a small branch got between the trigger *and holster and boom, in the ground thank God.
> 
> ...


I am not sure I would buy this, although I suppose it is possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. The thing is that in situations like this, we have to rely solely on the word of the person, and that is always suspect, especially when protecting one's integrity is paramount to the individual making the claim as to what happened. Then again, I can personally testify that stranger things have happened.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

http://www.timesdispatch.com/archive/man-killed-by-his-own-concealed-weapon/article_efb45677-4693-5696-a8b7-3cc6faa719f4.html

SCROLL DOWN


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## Aronis (Nov 3, 2013)

pic said:


> police instructor shoots himself in the foot for the class - YouTube


Best video ever! That guy kept his cool! Impressive.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

I've been out of pocket the last couple of days so I just got a chance to go through all of your responses. It seems the cocked and locked discussion is a passionate one. Like I said in an earlier reply, in the end more often than not it is the person carrying and not the weapon itself that determines whether or not it is safe. Both of the holsters for my 1911, a Blackhawk Serpa and the paddle holster from Springfield, are open carry holsters (which is legal in NM). Think I'll pick up a IWB holster and carry that way for awhile, if I still feel uncomfortable I can always go back to the .40. Anybody have a good holster for a 1911 they want to brag about? :mrgreen: I truly appreciate everyone's inputs.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Check this out:
SOTG | Did Gaston Glock Invent the Negligent Discharge? - Student of the Gun



> Let's be intellectually honest, the negligent discharge did not begin with the invention of the Glock pistol. There have been negligent discharges since the ability to discharge a firearm came in to being. Can we agree on that? That there have been ND's since the invention of the firearm?
> 
> Yet, there are those malcontent that will acquiesce to the previous assertion but will point out what they feel is as an overabundance of negligent discharges where the Glock pistol was the hardware in question. This is particularly true when the subject of law enforcement using the Glock comes up. "More cops ND Glocks than any other handgun." Said one man feeling he had put the cork on the anti-Glock argument.
> 
> ...


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

TurboHonda said:


> If you've been carrying an XD 40 with one in the chamber, you're already carrying cocked and somewhat locked.


 My original statement, which I believe started this discussion, was not intended to belittle striker fired weapons. I was simply trying to make the point that a round in the chamber is a round ready to be fired. The mechanism and sequence of operation to accomplish this is often misunderstood. Everybody, including the grossly misinformed, understands that when an exposed hammer drops it's going to go bang. The unexposed mechanism is not so readily obvious. Also, there is a difference in striker fired weapons. They're not all Glocks or Glock copies. Strikers, depending on the design, may be fully retracted, partially retracted, or not retracted at all. From the public view they all look the same. It's up to the owner/carrier to know and know for sure. 
For the record, all my weapons have one in the chamber.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

oops


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

I understand your point Turbo, and for the most part, I agree. Anytime there's one in the pipe there's potential for a discharge. For me, I think it comes down to experience. I've owned the XD for about 2 years now so I'm very familiar with how it works. The 1911, I've only had since January. Once I practice and carry it more I'm sure I'll be more comfortable. In the end I'll either get another striker fired or a 1911 with a shorter barrel, the full size feels like I'm carrying around a howitzer at times. I think the smaller frames fit me better.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

TurboHonda:
It's kind of like a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge argument. I own a Chevy 2500 HD, is it the best truck on the market? Not to a Ford or Dodge guy. Would I buy a Ford or a Dodge? Sure, why not? I had to buy something, it just so happened to be a Chevy. I own and have carried all types of guns and find for the reasons that I've previously stated that the striker fired pistols work best for me for everyday carry in an urban environment. When I'm out in the desert or trails both an S&W Governor and either a .45 Semi Auto or .44 Mag will be at my side. Weapons are mechanical devices and like any other mechanical devise things can go wrong, to ignore this is to do so at your own peril. Not you personally but generally speaking.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Badger68:
You've got the right idea if you can afford it get both, and you do. Then your biggest decision will be which one should you carry? The only caveat is that if you are used to carrying a weapon where you do not have to disengage a safety and then carry one where you do. You could end up drawing that weapon in an emergency and forget to disengage it, just out of habit. Something to think about.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> I am not sure I would buy this, although I suppose it is possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. The thing is that in situations like this, we have to rely solely on the word of the person, and that is always suspect, especially when protecting one's integrity is paramount to the individual making the claim as to what happened. Then again, I can personally testify that stranger things have happened.


I know the collapsed holster incident happened, I saw a pic of the holster and a bullet hole in the floorboard. I want to say it was a member on the 1911 forum but I can't recall it's been so long. The incident that happened in the woods I just read about somewhere long ago and have no idea where I came across it.

I don't believe everything I hear and the second could be a story, but the way it was described as happening seemed quite genuine. Definitely a freak incident, but I've had branches tangle up in stuff before so it is definitely possible. Situational awareness was definitely lacking though to not watch and be sure there's a clear reholster path.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rex said:


> I know the collapsed holster incident happened, I saw a pic of the holster and a bullet hole in the floorboard. I want to say it was a member on the 1911 forum but I can't recall it's been so long. The incident that happened in the woods I just read about somewhere long ago and have no idea where I came across it.
> 
> I don't believe everything I hear and the second could be a story, but the way it was described as happening seemed quite genuine. Definitely a freak incident, but I've had branches tangle up in stuff before so it is definitely possible. Situational awareness was definitely lacking though to not watch and be sure there's a clear reholster path.


You saw a pic of the collapsed holster, and a bullet hole in the floorboard, but did you actually see it as it happened? I'm not saying that it did not happen just as it was told, but let's at least acknowledge the fact that what was told could as easily been made up. No one really wants to have to admit fault. It is much easier to come up with an account that sort of admits we should have been more careful, BUT.... I know some really weird and freaky things can happen. They have happened to me, but I also look at things from other points of view. Sometimes there simply is no logical explanation. What happened is what happened. Or what happened is what we think happened simply b/c there is no other logical explanation.

I was playing golf one afternoon, and I hit my approach shot badly. It went straight into the hazard, which was a small creek about 20 yard from the green. I watched it go right into that creek, stood there for a few seconds, started to put my club back into my bag when all of a sudden that golf ball popped right up out of that creek and right back in the middle of that fairway. We all ran down there to see if someone was down there and had thrown that ball back up, b/c that is exactly what it looked like. The only thing we could figure out was that the ball bounced around the creek banks (which was rock and such) and bounced back out. It was the craziest golf shot I've ever seen for myself. There is no way I could have explained that had my buddies not witnessed it with me. But...that is the way it happened, and they can personally attest to it.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TurboHonda said:


> My original statement, which I believe started this discussion, was not intended to belittle striker fired weapons. I was simply trying to make the point that a round in the chamber is a round ready to be fired. The mechanism and sequence of operation to accomplish this is often misunderstood. Everybody, including the grossly misinformed, understands that when an exposed hammer drops it's going to go bang. The unexposed mechanism is not so readily obvious. Also, there is a difference in striker fired weapons. They're not all Glocks or Glock copies. Strikers, depending on the design, may be fully retracted, partially retracted, or not retracted at all. From the public view they all look the same. It's up to the owner/carrier to know and know for sure.
> For the record, all my weapons have one in the chamber.


Turbo, I didn't mean to make you feel like you had belittled anyone, and I'm sorry if I did. I wasn't trying to do anything at all, really, other than just discuss the differences in these systems. Perception has far less to do with facts than truth, and that is what drives most of us to do what we do. Perception is real whether it's true or not. This is why I think a lot of people do not carry a 1911 cocked and locked. I would. I have! I wouldn't hesitate to do it, but I do understand that the systems are different, and I do believe that the striker fire system is mechanically safer. But it all goes back to the individual and how they handle the respective firearm. Properly trained and executed, any firearm is safe.


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