# Poor shooting



## bwanatom

Hello,
I just got back from the range and 350 rds of ammo through my M9. My accuracy is disappointing. I posted a couple of times inre of my inability of being accurate. Most everything is low and left. I have tried every tactic, even had someone show me how to grip and squeeze the gun. I have been perplexed over the situation. At 25 feet the pattern is somewhat distinct, but at 50 feet I often miss the target to the left (8.5'x11"). Of the 15 rds in the magazine, I probably hit the target about 5 times on avg. A fellow next to me, who has shot most of his life, shot my gun. He peppered the target repeatedly.  
I might have figured it out today. I wear bifocals (I'm over 50 yo now), and I can either focus the target in, or the front sight, but not both at the same time. There must be some of you folks in the same boat, how do you overcome the inconvenience. I am near sighted, and also need reading glasses to read. I have always had good hand/eye coordination in sports, and find it discouraging because I feel I should be doing better.
Thank, bt
:smt1099


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## bprince04305

Dont feel bad i have a similar problem and im only 22. I cant see anything out my leff eye (yes laser surgery is in my future) what i try to do since its hard for me to focus on both the target, and the sights. I use my index finger to point where i want to hit, an old police officer showed me the tactic my first time at the range its not a perfected method, but with my range mags i hit 7/10 its better than what i was doing before. Im sure some of the better shooters will be here to give better info so i ll sit back and wait for techniques with you.


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## WhoUtink

Is this your first gun? or have you been shooting for a long time?If you are still somewhat new to shooting, and you say you are hitting far left you are probably flinching. Sometimes it happens to me after shooting a lot or just a little, and my accuracy drops dramatically, I don't even notice it until I pull the trigger and let off when I see the gun jump from anticipating the recoil. Its weird for me because it comes and goes. You should try the ball and dummy drill and see if you are flinching http://pistol-training.com/archives/210
It may also be you sight but if you can focus on your front sight and put it as close to the center of the target as possible, you should still have good enough accuracy for defense purposes. A lot of things I have read say FRONT SIGHT,FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT. Idk though,I wish you luck.

eta: if you got an extra 150 bucks or so get a personal trainer for an hour. Most of the places that have ccw and other firearms instruction, will give you some one on one for about 150. If not find the guy at the range who only has one big hole in the center of his target and ask him for some help.


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## rbwomble

I wear contacts (55 years old). My right one is for seeing far away and my left eye is adjusted so I can read a little bit without the use of my reading glasses. I too have a terrible time focusing on the target with both eyes. I find myself partially closing/squinting the left eye. It has really improved my accuracy. Both eyes opened, but forcing the right. Maybe that will help.


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## bruce333

You are either flinching or jerking the trigger. Having someone watch you or using the ball and dummy drills will tell you what you are doing.

Dry firing will help you overcome which ever you are doing.

Concentrate on the front sight, the target should be blurry. No one can focus on two objects at the same time.

Start with the target at 3 yards and work your way out. Even at 25 feet you really can't get a good idea of your true accuracy.

Another thread on accuracy: http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=16271


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## TOF

Low left is normall new shooter error. A new shooter will invariably flinch, jerk the trigger and try to move away from the noise. You need to wear good ear muffs to minimise the noise, do a lot of dry firing and if possible adjust the grip to fit your hand.

If shooting a heavy trigger place the first crease in your trigger finger on the trigger to provide more leverage. Using the pad or tip of your trigger finger on the trigger will result in the gun being pushed low left (right hand shooter) in the last instant of the pull.

Old eyes are not the cause of low left. They will determine how large your groups are but not cause a significant offset from where the sights are set.

If your range allows shoot from a sandbag rest to check the gun.

350 rounds in an outing is probably too much for a new shooter. You will end up pushing yourself and developing bad habits.

You are probably shooting too fast also. Take your time. Try some dry firing at the range shoot short distances until you gain control of the pistol. 

Have fun while you are at it.


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## Growler67

Regardless of the number of rounds, how were you shooting? Off a bench/rest or off hand? Slow and deliberate or as quick as you can or something in between? How many shots per group (for warm ups I like 5 per magazine before I start loading them up full)?

Perhaps going for the "Lethal Weapon smiley face" just isn't something you are capable of......yet. Need a little more info before we can start to address what the problem(s) might be. Consistently left or right of POA, but relatively constant vertically, could be too little or too much finger on the trigger.


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## bwanatom

Thank you for your responses, 
Yes, 350 rounds is too much, I was tired. I went to the local sportsman's club where I can pay the range fee and shoot all day if I want. I shot for about 3 hours or so. This is more shooting then I will do normally for a day. I also shot my friends 357 Ruger GP 100 and had better accuracy then with mine, not surprising. I also shot his 22 cal hg and my accuracy improved. I seem to shoot other guns better then my M9, but other people praise my M9 for it's feel and accuracy??? It feels so good in my hand, and is purdy too.
It was mentioned to focus on my front sight while shooting, but that is way out of focus because I need reading glasses. Has any tried using reading glasses under the safety glasses?? I might try. When I look throught the reading portion of my bifocals, my head is contorted, and its unconfortable. I have been using, on and off, a shooting support with sand bags, and it does hone in the accuracy some, but not satisfied either. I really think the blurry front sight is an issue, like I mentioned earlier, I have always had good hand eye coordination. I am determined though.
Thanks, BT


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## JeffWard

bruce333 said:


> Concentrate on the front sight, the target should be blurry. No one can focus on two objects at the same time.
> 
> Start with the target at 3 yards and work your way out. Even at 25 feet you really can't get a good idea of your true accuracy.


I have 20/15 vision in my right eye, and 20/17 in my left... I can see ANYTHING, but I cannot focus on the front sight AND the target. I cannot even focus on both sights! Noboby can.

Focus all of your attention on the front sight blade. Align that blade between the rear sights, and THEN put the clear front sight over the fuzzy target. Refocus on the front sight, and squeeze until the gun goes off. FOLLOW the front sight up and down, and then squeeze again. Your brain cannot process and focus on three objects at once, at different distances.

Start at NO MORE than 15-20 ft. Get your groups down to 3-5" at 20 ft before you EVER move out past that. I've been shooting for years, and I shoot competitively now, and the majority of my shooting is inside 25 ft.

The M9 is an accurate COMBAT gun... At COMBAT distances, inside 7yds.

JeffWard


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## DJ Niner

bwanatom said:


> Hello,
> I just got back from the range and 350 rds of ammo through my M9. My accuracy is disappointing. I posted a couple of times inre of my inability of being accurate. Most everything is low and left. I have tried every tactic, even had someone show me how to grip and squeeze the gun. I have been perplexed over the situation. At 25 feet the pattern is somewhat distinct, but at 50 feet I often miss the target to the left (8.5'x11"). Of the 15 rds in the magazine, I probably hit the target about 5 times on avg. A fellow next to me, who has shot most of his life, shot my gun. He peppered the target repeatedly.
> I might have figured it out today. I wear bifocals (I'm over 50 yo now), and I can either focus the target in, or the front sight, but not both at the same time. There must be some of you folks in the same boat, how do you overcome the inconvenience. I am near sighted, and also need reading glasses to read. I have always had good hand/eye coordination in sports, and find it discouraging because I feel I should be doing better.
> Thank, bt
> :smt1099


Hello!

First, I am going to agree with much of what has been said above; however, being a bit long-winded, I'm also going to expand on some of it, as well. Then I'm going to completely disagree with one thing that most of them said! But I'll leave that to the end.

First, you should know that I taught folks how to shoot the Beretta M9 when I was in the service. In my career, I _personally_ taught/coached several thousand people on the proper/effective use of the M9, and my qualifications rates seemed to indicate that I was pretty good at it. I volunteered to teach/coach the remedial classes (the ones filled with folks who had recently failed to pass qualification), because there is _no better feeling than taking a person who has failed to qualify, helping them discover and overcome their difficulty, and watching them pass the course -- or shoot Expert._ None! I have also personally owned several Beretta 92FS models, so in short, I'm very familiar with the gun and the common problems people have shooting it.

Although your vision problem may be a contributing factor, your primary difficulty is almost certainly proper trigger control (just like most folks who shoot the M9 poorly). I'm going to ignore the long, heavy double-action trigger pull for the first shot right now, but the fundamentals are the same, so you can work on that later, at your own leisure. For now, I'm going to address shooting in the single-action mode (hammer is already cocked, waiting to fire). If you load the weapon with the safety in the "off" position, this is where you'll be when the slide is released with a loaded magazine in place. If you load with the safety "on", you'll have to thumb-cock the hammer before beginning to shoot the first shot.

You should know that when your Beretta is cocked, the trigger still has to be pulled quite a ways before the sear is engaged, and even AFTER you feel the heavier pressure of the sear engagement, the trigger is STILL going to move a little bit before the hammer is released. Target shooters call this "creep", or excessive sear engagement. It is important, because most shooters feel the trigger stop when it hits the heavier portion of the pull, and figure that it's "ready to go", and any additional pressure will fire the gun. That may be the case, but the slight additional movement (and time) needed to release the hammer, the hammer to fall, the firing pin to hit the primer, the primer to ignite the powder, pressure to build, and the bullet to exit the barrel; ALL of this, requires time. If you snap, or jerk, the trigger in that last part of the trigger pull, the excess pressure is transmitted to the frame of the weapon, and while all that hammer-falling, primer/powder-igniting stuff is going on, the gun MOVES. Not very far, but far enough for the bullet to miss the intended impact point (sometimes by a LOT).

SO, the key is to NOT move the gun by putting excess pressure on the trigger. And the way we keep from moving the gun, is not to "pull" the trigger, it's to "squeeze" the trigger. Really slowly/gently, straight to the rear. How slowly? Slowly enough that you DO NOT KNOW WHEN THE GUN IS ACTUALLY GOING TO FIRE. Yes, I know you've probably heard this before. I know all of my students were told it, multiple times, before they hit the live-fire range. We even practiced it in the classroom, with empty weapons. They executed a perfect trigger squeeze several time before they ever were allowed to touch ammo, so I KNOW they knew how to do it. The problem is, some of them DIDN'T do it, once the gun was loaded with live ammo.

Fact is, your body and your brain don't like surprises. They don't like loud noises, flashes of light, small hot pieces of brass whizzing past their face/eyes, and mechanical devices slapping them in the hand. This is normal, and your body will try to avoid it. For best results, we need to minimize these effects. Someone above already suggested good ear protection; I'll second that. I'll even go one-up, and suggest muff-type ear defenders OVER earplugs. The less you hear, the less distractions, the less likely you are to react negatively to the sound of the shot(s). Second, use light-kicking target ammo whenever possible, until you are used to your weapon and are shooting well with it; THEN you can upgrade to premium high-velocity ammo, if you want/need it. Make sure good, clear, shooting glasses are always in place when shooting or observing other shooters. Get, and wear, a long-brimmed hat, to keep cases from bouncing behind your glasses or off your forehead (really distracting, that). Finally, only shoot in shorter sessions (maybe 100-150 shots, max) until you get used to using the muscles needed to support and fire the weapon and they get conditioned a bit more. Summary: reduce distractions, so you can fully concentrate on the act of shooting the shot.

Continued below (told you I was long-winded).


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## DJ Niner

There are a few practice drills you can do to help you ingrain good trigger control habits. The first is proper dry-fire. This is simply taking your UNLOADED gun (double- and triple-check! It's IMPORTANT!), and practicing a controlled squeeze and followthrough. Find a spot in your house where you can safely dry-fire; that is, even if the gun is accidentally fired, no one will get hurt. Aiming at a concrete basement wall is good, or into your gun safe. An exterior brick wall is next best, etc. Once you have a safe spot, remove ALL LIVE AMMO FROM THE ROOM/AREA -- NO EXCEPTIONS! Again, double-check. Now we're ready to begin.

You don't even need a target initially; all you're going to do is thumb-cock your empty weapon, align the front and rear sights on a blank spot on the wall, and concentrate on holding that alignment as you fire the weapon. Take up slack in the trigger (quickly pull up to the part where the sear engagement can be felt), check and hold the sight alignment (top of front level with the top of the rear, and centered in the notch), and squeeze the trigger, slowly adding more and more pressure, until the hammer falls. If the sights move AT ALL when the hammer falls, you didn't squeeze gently enough; try again. And again. Etc. Please note, this is NOT a two stage process (sights, then trigger); it is a continuous back-and-forth -- sights, add pressure, keep those sights aligned, a little more pressure, etc. When the hammer falls, keep watching the sights, hold them aligned, watch for movement. Ingrain the proper procedure, and don't forget to wear all the same safety gear (ear protection, glasses, hat, etc.) so your practice session is realistic. During this session, remember this: there is no "next shot", there is no "last shot"; there is only the shot under the hammer right now. The last shot is gone; you can't call it back. The next shot is waiting, but it might not even be needed, if you just. Make. This. Shot. Count.

Once you've mastered the sights-aligned, movement-free, hammerfall, then you can add a target. Tape a smaller-than-normal target to your practice area backstop. Align the sights, front and rear, then put the top of the front sight wherever you want the bullet to hit, take up the "slack" (excess slop/movement) in the trigger, until it hits the sear engagement part of the pull, and start squeezing. It is at this point, you may notice some movement in your position. Do your best to IGNORE ANY MINOR MOVEMENT OF THE SIGHTS ON TARGET. This is the SECOND area many folks have problems with; the sights are wiggling around, not staying in the center, and they get frustrated. It happens to everyone; really, it does. The difference between a poor shooter and a good shooter, is how they handle that minor movement.

The poor shooter sees the sights moving back and forth, around and around the center of his/her target, sometimes pausing, but never stopping. They get frustrated, and try to "ambush" the target as the sight pass near the center. Ah HA! How many of you just smiled, remembering the last time you did that? That's right, I saw that "internal" smile! (And a person might ask themselves just how this guy could describe this problem so clearly, unless he had experienced it himself, perhaps recently? But I digress...). Anyway, we KNOW what happens if we jerk/slap the trigger, right? The excess pressure is transmitted to the frame, and in the time it takes the gun to actually LAUNCH the bullet, the gun moves, and we miss! Right? Right! So "ambushing" the moving target is a bad, bad habit to get into, and darn hard one to break, once acquired.

Now, someone above mentioned flinching. Flinching is actually okay, as long as the bullet is gone. A flinch caused by the noise or recoil is only a problem when it happens BEFORE, or AS the gun is fired. However, once you start flinching, it gets earlier and earlier, until you are flinching BEFORE you shoot the shot. If you think the tiny amount of frame movement caused by slapping the trigger is bad for accurate shooting, then imagine spasmodically jerking your entire hand/body as the gun fires. THAT'S a bad flinch, but it's really completely avoidable. Back to proper trigger control. The flinch is bad when it happens BEFORE the guns fires, but it happens when it does because the person is PULLING or JERKING the trigger; their body knows EXACTLY when to flinch, because they know EXACTLY when the gun is going to fire. If you are squeezing gently/slowly, and really concentrating on holding the sights aligned and on-target, you WON'T know when it is going to go "Bang!", so you can't flinch before the shot! You might twitch a bit when you THINK it's about to go off (oh yeah, I saw another smile right there), but that should just serve to remind you what will happen if you don't squeeze it slow/gentle. Pull/jerk, and miss; squeeze while you're holding the sights near the center, and you'll get good hits. EVERY TIME. And they'll get better as you practice more.

(believe it or not) Continued...


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## DJ Niner

Okay, so now you've gotten my 30 minute trigger control lecture, in written form. Here's where I part company with many other instructors. Not because I want to, not because it's cool, but because it is what I have observed over the years. So, here goes.

For decent accuracy, all that is needed is sight alignment and trigger control. Everything else is cake; sights and squeeze are the meat and potatoes. 
- Consistent body position? Helpful, but not strictly necessary for reasonable accuracy. I have shot, and seen others shoot, in combat courses where they leaned way over an obstacle, hung on to a rope with one hand while standing on one leg and leaning out, leaned through a fake window, laid on their back on the ground and shot back over their head, and squirmed halfway out of the end of a plastic sewer pipe; all while accurately engaging targets. By all means, stand erect and raise the gun to eye level; lean into it for good balance; but don't think for a moment that the shot in the dirt was caused by your head being tilted 1.3 degrees too far down, or some such crap.
- Grip? As long as you don't drop it, and can control the recoil and reach the trigger, you can shoot it decently. A consistent grip, square behind the gun, is a big help in highly accurate shooting, but minor changes in grip do NOT make folks miss the target. Ever. Miss the exact middle of the target? Maybe. Miss the entire target? No.
- Breath control? When you breathe, your body moves. Holding your breath will help minimize unnecessary movement in your sights as you aim. Hold it too long, and other problems might crop up, too; blurry/watery vision, increased heart rate, etc. Again, useful for high accuracy, but no one ever missed an entire target because they were breathing a bit while aiming.
- What about shooting faster? A famous shooter once said "only hits count; you can't miss fast enough to win", and that's true in both competition and self-defense. Once you've subconsciously mastered trigger control and sight alignment, you can compress the time it takes to shoot an accurate shot, or even a series of shots. It may LOOK like the shooter is jerking/slapping the trigger as they blaze through a fast combat course, but they are actually shooting right on the edge of speed and control, through many hours of dedicated practice. A top shooter KNOWS how fast they can shoot, and still get good hits; any quicker, and their score will suffer -- any slower and they might lose to a faster shooter. Jeff Cooper's "compressed surprise break" is the best way to describe this speedier type of trigger control; here's a classic clip of his:

[YT]



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If it doesn't load properly here, use this link:





http://www.gunblast.com/MeritOptical.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704810

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=978528
(click on "Reviews" and read)

I hope this is helpful to anyone who has waded through the entire mess.


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## DevilsJohnson

bruce333 said:


> You are either flinching or jerking the trigger. Having someone watch you or using the ball and dummy drills will tell you what you are doing.
> 
> Another thread on accuracy: http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=16271


I think you are rihgt
Want to see what you are doing...have someone load your mag and have them put a snap cap somewhere in the mag but not let you know where or what mag it might be in. That one time you don't fire you will see the gun move in some way it shouldn't. Too much finger on the trigger will cause you to push the gun a little. Trying to compensate for the recoil can cause a flinch or a little dropping of the barrel. Once you learn what you are doing you can work on correcting it.

And practive,practice,practice. The best way to get better is a lot of it. Muscle memory has a lot to do with accurate shooting.


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## bwanatom

Thank you djniner, and all the rest of you, much appreciated.
I purchased some snap caps and have been practicing some "dry shooting" with the "squeeze theory". I must say it does make sense and I seem to get better results. I have to do something about the blurry sights, and those websites are very helpful. I can't hit what I can't see. I have some clip on readers I plan on trying, they flip up/down as needed. The vid is helpful as well. Now I need to digest the infomation.
I am looking at getting a .22 cal pistol for target practice/learning. Lots less noise, kick, and lots less money. Any suggestions???
thanks you again, you have been very helpflu, bt


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## bruce333

bwanatom said:


> It was mentioned to focus on my front sight while shooting, but that is way out of focus because I need reading glasses. Has any tried using reading glasses under the safety glasses?? I might try. When I look throught the reading portion of my bifocals, my head is contorted, and its unconfortable.


There are safety glasses with bifocal sections in them, also stick-on bifocals. I have a pair of the "Olympic 30-06 Dual Segment Bifocal" that I use for work. They have bifocal sections in the top as well as the bottom of the lens.

I haven't had the need for bifocals when shooting (yet) my arms are still long enough for me to see the front sight clearly, and my distance vision is good enough I don't bother with corrective lenses for that when shooting either.


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## TOF

I am near sighted and without correction everything at distance is blurry including pistol sights. The sights are also blurry with distance correction. I have learned to shoot with my distance lens and accept some blur on the front sight. I still focus my attention on the front sight although it is not nearly as crisp as I would like. I can go through a couple of hundred rounds of IPSC style shooting and keep all rounds on the silhouette targets with the majority in the A zone. I do occasionaly put one in a hostage target though.:smt083

We need to see things around us well enough to prevent tripping even when shooting. If you are practicing for Defensive use you need to become accustomed to shooting with whatever eye wear you use in your daily routine.


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## bwanatom

DJniner,
I just ordered this product, thanks
MERIT
DELUXE OPTICAL ATTACHMENT
The Original - Attaches Firmly To Glasses - Eliminates "Fuzzy" Sights

Instantly adjustable aperture mounts directly on prescription or shooting glass lens to improve eye focus, thereby eliminating iron sight and target "fuzzing". Raises scores and lets both rifle and pistol shooters keep shooting even when the eyes won't focus as well as they used to. Thin, sharp, aperture edge gives crisp sight picture. Suction cup mounting won't scratch or mar lens, holds tight for one-handed adjustments.

SPECS: 5/8" (15.9mm) O.D. x ¼" (6.3mm) thick disc. Aperture adjusts from .020" (.508mm) to .155" (3.94mm). 9/16" (14.3mm) diameter suction cup.


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## DJ Niner

Let me know how well you like it; I figure I'm about 1-2 years away from needing one, myself. :mrgreen:


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## bwanatom

Thanks, 
I'll post after I try them, should be interesting.
bt


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## bwanatom

*deleted*

Moved


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## BigdogBro1

Run over to your local drug store and try on a few low magnification reading glasses. Try 1.00, 1.25 or 1.50 to get a focal distance to where the gun sights are a bit better in focus but not perfect. This will cause some slight blurriness of the target but help focus the front sight.

Try on different ones and hold your arms out and use your thumbnail for the sight and another object further away to simulate the target distance.

It works for me. Sig P229R .40 7yds.


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## bwanatom

Thanks to all of your replys, I have started seeing positive change in my shooting ability. I also get good instruction at the club I belong to. These guys really know their stuff. I can't say enough about "good instruction" from people who know how to do it. 
Things that I have been doing wrong:
1) Flinching to the "bang and recoil". (low and left)
2) Not keeping my eye on the front sight (the Merit Optical Device I purchased has helped me immensely)
3) Poor grip from both right and left hands.
4) Shooting too fast and too much in a short period of time.
5) Poor target location/selection. 

Good things I'm doing:
1) Practicing with snap caps (wow, these really do help)
2) Better grip with right hand, and better support with the left hand.
3) Moving the target in to a "fair" distance for a newbie.
4) Keeping my focus on the "front sight" while firing. (big help)
5) Merit Optical Device (can't say enough about how I like them)
6) Great instruction, both here, and at the club I joined.
7) Practice, practice, practice. (I purchased a .22 pistol, I'm pretty good with that. Not as much bang and recoil?)
8) Safety, safety, safety.

thanks all for your valuable advice, I really appreciate it.
bt


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## clanger

To mirror others.... 

Dry-fire before your session, on the live firing line, after you are all set up. Have a plan. Pick the spot you want to hit and drill it dry-firing. 
If your hits start to wander, take a break, then dry-fire, then live. This seems to help when I start getting tired and start to jerk. Break it up some. No long strings if possible. 
Dry-firing is the biggest help of all IMHO. 

My eyes are toast. Those 'readers' you get from Rite-Aid and such are ok for crisp sights/short ranges, but, they blur targets if your visions's like mine. Plus, they are not thick enough and some line's wont let you on w/o certified glasses of a specific thickness. 
The Merrit, Lyman etc. pin-hole devices are a blessing. I also know some that use the 'golf-ball' front bead, black tape with a pin hole on one lens and so on.
I don't recomnend those 'reader's'.....Indoors, I've had jacketed splatters come back from others and crack/knock loose the lens on one those, I refuse to use non-shooting glasses anymore. 

Invest is real shooting glasses, they're not much more if at all than those cheesey 'readers'. Stick a magnafier on one lens if nec. or a pinhole device for crips sight pictures. 

Practice and consistency (aka- training) help me the most. Repeatable results are what I'm after. 

As I age, I find it more challenging (and more fun as a result) to be consistent and accurate. Esp. with the big bores.


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## bwanatom

thanks clanger, I agree. Good advice.
bt

:smt1099

Yes I am DJ, thanks for yer help!



> if you got an extra 150 bucks or so get a personal trainer for an hour. Most of the places that have ccw and other firearms instruction, will give you some one on one for about 150. If not find the guy at the range who only has one big hole in the center of his target and ask him for some help.


Thanks, I'm taking and NRA Personal Protection / CCW / CPL class starting this monday. This should help too.


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## DevilsJohnson

glad to hear you're doing better :smt1099


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## bwanatom

I hope I'm not wearing this subject out, but, I seem to shoot my 2 other guns more accurately, and the Beretta M9 not so. The two other guns, Ruger Marklll (6" barrel), and S&W 357 (6" barrel, and only 38sp so far). The Beretta has a 5" barrel. I feel the most imposing factor for the reason why is, "trigger pull". I installed a "D" mainspring in the M9, which helps accuaracy some. I would like to say that the Ruger and Smith have "sweet" trigger pulls in SA, whereas the Beretta exhibits more take up and over-travel, and not so smooth when it's engaged(terminology?). It is strange, when I bought the gun, I really liked the way it felt in my hand. Although I did not shoot it(my bad). I also bought it for it's tradition, proven track record, and I wanted the Marine version of M9 in honor of my late father's service in WWll. I think I would have bought it regardless of whether I shot it accurately under test due to reasons above. I also realize the M9 has a little more recoil to it, which probably influences some flinching. I do quite well at 50 feet with the Ruger and Smith hitting the 8'' target, but often times "miss" the target completely with the M9, say 50% of the time. Snap caps help, and all the other techniques as well. I just think the beretta is a difficult gun for "me" to shoot. Other people I talk to say the same thing. I must have 1500 rds thru it. _I have been able to improve shooting it, but wondered if anybody in here has experienced the same with the M9? _
I'll keep try'n, thanks, b


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## DJ Niner

It's very common with new shooters and autos (such as the Beretta 92) that have a longer/heavier trigger pull. Your other guns might even have "spoiled" you a bit; I'm sure they both have lighter and much crisper trigger actions, especially the S&W when it is thumb-cocked.

Keep dry-firing, watch the sights all the way through the firing cycle; remember, they should not move AT ALL when the hammer falls. And to prevent that movement, you HAVE to SQUEEEEEEEEEZE the trigger, not "pull" it. If you know WHEN it's going to go bang, you are NOT squeezing the trigger! Squeezing most of the way through the pull, then jerking/snapping/slapping the last part of the pull is just as bad as jerking from the beginning. 

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE! :mrgreen:


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## bwanatom

dj,
i'll keep going at it. I started my ccw/clp class tonight, so I'm also learning some good things there as well.
Thank you for your help, bt


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## Doorman

A friend of mine and I were having a little competition with his Walther P22. He claimed it shot low/left. To me, it was dead on. I passed DJ Niner's advice along to him (aiming at the wall and dry firing) and he said he could clearly see the front sight move. We'll be back at the range this weekend to see if he has improved.


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## Spartan

Have you had someone else try shooting the gun and see what their results are?


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## bwanatom

I have been improving, and the snap caps are really a help. I also use a Crimson Trace Laser, and ask people to observe the laser at firing. Yes I do flinch, and it is hard for me to get over. What helps in this situation is to focus on the front sight through the entire discharge. Some guns are easier to shoot than others. At least they are for me. My s&w has a long heavy barrel, and the trigger is just "so right". Not a lot of excess travel in single action. The Ruger is a close 2nd to the smith. Other people have shot my beretta, and some are very successful. It is not the sights that are off, it's the shooter(me). I have also seen people struggle with this gun and tell me it is difficult for them to shoot, and it is not a favorite shooting gun. I feel I have to squeeze the trigger to far, until my finger starts to rotate a little perpendicular to the trigger path, and seems like this action breaks my wrist a little. I would like to try another gun to shoot, maybe a 1911 style? Any suggestions on a "sweet shooter" in the semi-auto style that anybody would recommend ?
Best to you, bt


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## Fredericianer

Good to hear that you're getting better results now.

I'm not a very experienced shot myself so I can't give you much help, but if you're after a 'sweet shooting' pistol you may want to take a look at a CZ-75 or one of it's clones. I've only used clones myself (Norinco and Tangfolio), but they're reliable pistols and sit very well in the hand (...well, my hand at least).

All the best.
Jeff


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## DJ Niner

bwanatom said:


> I have been improving, and the snap caps are really a help. I also use a Crimson Trace Laser, and ask people to observe the laser at firing. Yes I do flinch, and it is hard for me to get over. What helps in this situation is to focus on the front sight through the entire discharge. Some guns are easier to shoot than others. At least they are for me. My s&w has a long heavy barrel, and the trigger is just "so right". Not a lot of excess travel in single action. The Ruger is a close 2nd to the smith. Other people have shot my beretta, and some are very successful. It is not the sights that are off, it's the shooter(me). I have also seen people struggle with this gun and tell me it is difficult for them to shoot, and it is not a favorite shooting gun. I feel I have to squeeze the trigger to far, until my finger starts to rotate a little perpendicular to the trigger path, and seems like this action breaks my wrist a little. I would like to try another gun to shoot, maybe a 1911 style? Any suggestions on a "sweet shooter" in the semi-auto style that anybody would recommend ?
> Best to you, bt


bt, most of the double-action/single-action autoloaders are going to have a lot of what some folks call "excess" trigger movement. It is required by the parts relationship in many of these designs.

For a swinging-trigger (vs. a sliding-trigger; trying to keep it the same as your other weapons) gun with a short pull-length and an even shorter reset for the second (and subsequent) shots, the Glock is hard to beat. The grip angle takes some getting used to, but the fact that it sits very low in the hand minimizes the muzzle flip when it fires, and helps it return to the target very quickly. I recommend the 9mm Glocks over the other calibers.


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## bwanatom

thanks,
actually I have been paging through the Glock models and realize that they get very good reviews. I see them as not the most stylish, but one of the most reliable. In fact, I almost bought one a few months ago. Is there any model that you would recommend ? I had thoughts about a .45 cal. How is the kick compared to a 9mm? I shot a .45 a couple times before, I don't recall the recoil being that extensive? Maybe another 9mm would be ok though, it's not like I would complain about having to many guns. 
Appreciate your help, thanks, bt


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## Spartan

I'd suggest going the other way and getting a .22 pistol to practice trigger control...


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## DJ Niner

bwanatom said:


> thanks,
> actually I have been paging through the Glock models and realize that they get very good reviews. I see them as not the most stylish, but one of the most reliable. In fact, I almost bought one a few months ago. Is there any model that you would recommend ? I had thoughts about a .45 cal. How is the kick compared to a 9mm? I shot a .45 a couple times before, I don't recall the recoil being that extensive? Maybe another 9mm would be ok though, it's not like I would complain about having to many guns.
> Appreciate your help, thanks, bt


Although I'm a fan of Glocks, I usually won't recommend them in any caliber but 9mm. The larger frames are simply too big for my hand, and I'm not a proponent of the .40 cartridge at all. I did try a Glock 32C in .357SIG caliber for awhile, but the ammo was so expensive that I found I wasn't shooting it often enough to keep my skill level up where I wanted it. So I got rid of it, and "standardized" on 9mm for the vast majority of my centerfire semi-auto shooting.

I suggest you find someplace where you can at least hold, and preferably shoot, the Glock 9mm models G17 and G19 one-after-the-other. The G19 is probably a better "all-around" gun; small enough to carry, but still large enough to shoot well. The G17 might be a better choice primarily for range use and occasional unconcealed carry, as the grip is fairly long. If the G17 grip fits you better than the G19, but you'd like a little more forward balance and a longer sight radius to work with, then check out the G34; same frame as the G17, but longer slide, lighter trigger pull, and extended mag release are all standard.

The only weak point on the Glocks (9mm or otherwise), in my opinion, are the sights. I always get night sights, or at least steel replacement sights; the stock sights are just too easily damaged.


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## JeffWard

DJ Niner said:


> Although I'm a fan of Glocks, I usually won't recommend them in any caliber but 9mm. The larger frames are simply too big for my hand, and I'm not a proponent of the .40 cartridge at all. I did try a Glock 32C in .357SIG caliber for awhile, but the ammo was so expensive that I found I wasn't shooting it often enough to keep my skill level up where I wanted it. So I got rid of it, and "standardized" on 9mm for the vast majority of my centerfire semi-auto shooting.
> 
> I suggest you find someplace where you can at least hold, and preferably shoot, the Glock 9mm models G17 and G19 one-after-the-other. The G19 is probably a better "all-around" gun; small enough to carry, but still large enough to shoot well. The G17 might be a better choice primarily for range use and occasional unconcealed carry, as the grip is fairly long. If the G17 grip fits you better than the G19, but you'd like a little more forward balance and a longer sight radius to work with, then check out the G34; same frame as the G17, but longer slide, lighter trigger pull, and extended mag release are all standard.
> 
> The only weak point on the Glocks (9mm or otherwise), in my opinion, are the sights. I always get night sights, or at least steel replacement sights; the stock sights are just too easily damaged.


Or... you can get the best of both worlds with a short crisp trigger pull and reset, low bore axis, and BETTER sights, and ADJUSTABLE grip sizes, by buying an M&P.... My choice is also the 9mm, but the grip size on the 40's and 45's is much more tolerable than the Glocks, and the grip angle will match up with your other guns better....

JW


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## DJ Niner

JeffWard said:


> Or... you can get the best of both worlds with a short crisp trigger pull and reset, low bore axis, and BETTER sights, and ADJUSTABLE grip sizes, by buying an M&P.... My choice is also the 9mm, but the grip size on the 40's and 45's is much more tolerable than the Glocks, and the grip angle will match up with your other guns better....
> 
> JW


I admit the grip size on the .45s are much improved, and probably a better choice than a Glock .45. The rest is propaganda. :mrgreen:


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## bwanatom

> I'd suggest going the other way and getting a .22 pistol to practice trigger control...
> Reply With Quote


 Hey Spartan, I do have a 22 pistol, and while I while there is still room for improvement, and your point is right on, I can shoot the 22 pistol w/o the same effects as the 9mm. The 9mm seems to intimidate me a little with it's recoil. I know that sounds wimpy to some of the younger experienced shooters, but that's the way it is. I aslo shoot my smith 357 very well, it has a great trigger and a great 6" heavy barrel. I believe in what you said, and make the 22 the "main" gun I fire at the range. I also like to fire my 9mm and improve on that. It is a better home protection gun, and a common center fire round. I know you know that, but that's why I am continuing through the struggles with it. I'll see if one of my shooting buddies has a 9mm glock I might try. I am absolutely sure that the gun is dead on accurate, because sometimes I can take the center out of the target. The 22 should be in everyone's bag, as the say IMHO, it is so relaxing and inexpensive to shoot.
Have a great day to all, bt


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