# CCW, home defense and a Laser Grip ?



## Younguy (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi all

New to the forum, new to posting and new to handguns though have been shooting 22 rifles and shotguns in my younger days. Like 30 years ago.

I now have a used 92fs (recently purchased) and a the .32 Bernadelli I bought in Italy while in the navy 1971:smt1099. Having completed a CCW class in May and applied (though not recieved yet) my CCW permit, I am looking for that perfect pistol to carry. I was originally anxious for an snub SP101 in .357 because of perceived reliability and that little cowboy inside me. Now having listened to the good folks on this site, I am leaning back away from the wheel gun and towards another semi-auto 9mm in the M&P shield which is as hard to locate as the Ruger. 

OK so I really want the shield. I am 18th, 51st and I don't know where on a third waiting list pricing from $399 to $499. I'm 5'10" about 190 so the slimmer design of the shield for CC is a plus over the PX4c or the SR9c. I have a tendency to anticipate recoil a bit too much and am hitting a lot of 1" high and 2" right of COA with the 92. The .32 is a lot better, almost stacking at 5 yds but those little shells cost double the 92 to feed. 

The question I now have is, when that shield finally lands on my number, is a laser attachment worth the extra $ as an addition and will it work in an IWB holster with out snagging. For that matter, would the SP101 with the laser grip do a better job on my night stand. I have already done a perimeter inspection between my bed and the doorway and I have a clear shot from left to right the entire wall to the doorjam.

(I've only been on this site a couple weeks and my-oh-my the jargon I've picked up !)

I am also getting more interested in taking a couple classes to improve my shooting and having read posts like "Are you too stupid . . ." and some others which I really do appreciate, maybe one or two on the legal, moral and ethical responsibility of CCW. This forum is about more than just pulling a trigger, and I appreciate that. I havent spent that much time at the range yet as I am just getting back to the sport, but I really do enjoy the time I get. I'm also looking for a 22lr plinker to throw some lead down range. Might help me lose the anticipation problem, maybe a used Neos at the right price. Much more friendly to the ammo budget than 9mm. A new Mosquito is just a bit too expensive for me now and a conversion kit for the 92fs can be more than a new Neos.

Can't get my wife to even look at the two pistols I have but she lets me enjoy them and for that I am truly grateful.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Lasers are good practice aids, but they are more of a distraction than an aid when you need to shoot quickly.
In daylight, most lasers are hard to see, so you don't really need one. Use your sights. Also practice "point shooting."
In the dark, you search for the laser dot and you search for your target. Meanwhile, your, um, target follows the laser beam right back to you. Bang, bang: You're dead.

If it's so dark that you can't see your, um, target, then how do you know that it's not your child, your wife, or a drunk and disoriented neighbor?
So what, exactly, is the laser going to do for you? The dot's too small to tell you who you're shooting at.

Practice using the silhouette of the rear end of your pistol, in the near-dark, as a sighting aid. At close range, you don't really need sights...if you practice.
Learn a good flashlight technique.
In daylight, practice achieving a quick sight picture as soon as your gun gets up to eye-level. At the same time, practice trigger control.

You don't really need a laser.


If you take a class—which is a really, really good idea—then see if your wife might like to take it also.
To make this work, you have to keep it non-competitive. Even better, let her out-shoot you.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Ruger SP101's can be found....just look on the net...............I have a laser on my carry firearm....do I ever expect to use it? Not really, nice toy, but not practical.......it was on there when I purchased it.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

The wheelgun is still a good choice,but make yourself happy.The laser is unneccesary.They are a good training tool.Try practice in the dark with a good flashlight like a 3-4 cell maglight.It gives support to the gun hand and can be used as a baton.It isnt the highest lumen count but can temporarily blind them.My light is next to my pistol.


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

Keep searching for the Shield, I understand they are worth the wait..get it and spend some range time practicing ...take some courses and after a time you can then decide if you still want or need a laser......JJ


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Lasers are good practice aids, but they are more of a distraction than an aid when you need to shoot quickly.
> In daylight, most lasers are hard to see, so you don't really need one. Use your sights. Also practice "point shooting."
> In the dark, you search for the laser dot and you search for your target. Meanwhile, your, um, target follows the laser beam right back to you. Bang, bang: You're dead.
> 
> ...


This is one area where Steve and I disagree.

One can not simply say that you will be faster or slower with a laser, the fact of the matter is that we just don't know. Some people may do better, some people may not.

Here's three sets of results from Todd Green that shows some of his results of irons vs. laser where the laser wins.

*pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Irons vs. Lasers III: 4567

pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Irons vs. Lasers II

pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » F.A.S.T.: Irons vs Laser*

As for "if it's so dark" I can create several scenarios where I am in the dark and an intruder could be in a lighted area, my bedroom vs. lighted hall, darkened upstairs vs lighted down stairs etc. Not to mention that I don't think that other than my closets there isn't a pitch black room in my house and as my kids are 3ys and 7mos. and sleep upstairs, and my wife and I do happen to sleep together....I'm pretty sure that an adult sized attacker in the shadows will be easier to ID, especially after I do a head count to ensure that "yep, my family is where they're supposed to be" and unless the cats are revolting, there's someone in my house up to no good...



> Meanwhile, your, um, target follows the laser beam right back to you. Bang, bang: You're dead.


I don't know if this is just an error of communication on my part, but it seems like Steve is indicating that there is a visible beam for someone to "follow" back to your gun.

Like they do in the movies...










And that's just not the case _unless _there is a haze of sorts that will show the beam, otherwise there are just two dots, one from where the laser is emitted, and one where it makes contact with an object. Yes, there's going to be a little red dot and if the intruder even sees the dot and makes a move, you shoot him. The print ads etc. for them always show the big red beam being emitted:










So it's partially their own darn fault, but that's not how the work in real life.

This is a pretty good write up on the subject from someone (again, Todd Green) that was very skeptical at first:

*The Thinking Gunfighter: Looking at Lasers: Myth and Reality*

I don't use one every day as I haven't sprung for the Laser Grips yet as that is what I would prefer for carry purposes, but my nightstand gun has a laser and I can see some benefits to it.

Now regarding visibility, the newer green lasers make up for some of the deficiency of the red lasers.

I look at it like this, if you're willing to try it, do so. If you can't find an application where it helps, you can always eBay the laser or move it on a forum.

FWIW I'm probably going to end up with some of the laser grips to try out and see what I think of them.

Then there's always this:



QKShooter said:


> Read it by clicking on the link below. It's a pdf file. I hate pdf pages but, read it anyway.
> It's interesting.
> It's a good "read" to stay on top of "things" related to defensive shooting in general.
> *Real World actual hits by Police Officers have shown a 300% increase when handgun laser technology was used.*
> ...


Where I do agree with Steve regarding lasers is as the use of a training aid. you'll see any shooter error effect the laser, and as far as point shooting goes, just go through the house (gun empty of course) and start point shooting with the laser, you'll get the indexing down in no time flat.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

There is only a visible beam from your laser after a shot has been fired and liberated gasses generated.

What I meant, and stated all too dramatically when I tried to make my point as effectively as possible, was that your opponent can see the origin of your laser, presumably attached to your pistol or shotgun.
That gives him an aiming point for a couple of quick shots.
They may connect, to your distinct disadvantage.

If you need light, a flashlight held away from your body might be a better source.
If your opponent aims for the light, he most likely won't hit you.

I have no investment in whether or not you, or anyone, uses a laser. However, I do worry that adopting the laser might lead one to believe that it replaces skill.
In my mind I keep hearing some very wise advice I was given by Michael Harries: "There is no gadget, wonderful modern device, or miracle cure that will do anything toward absolving you from the need to practice, in order to acquire and to maintain your shooting skills."


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## Younguy (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks for the excellent, well thought out advice. Truth is it has it's advantages and disadvantages which you both stated quite well. Comes down to that Michael Harries quote, like all of life does, not just shooting. Insert golf, archery, singing, dancing, whatever where the 'shooting' skills is. 
I did see the guy next to me at the range today with a laser on his .45 1911 at 7 yards and he could not hit the dot. His pal on the line was almost stacking at that distance with the same gun. Even with a laser there is still practice.


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