# WRONG GUN: Why The Most Popular Gun For Law Enforcement Is A Mistake



## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

*WRONG GUN: Why The Most Popular Gun For Law Enforcement Is A Mistake*



> There has been institutional resistance to admitting that Glocks and similar designs are not good guns for law enforcement officers, and for each and every negligent discharge, there is a rush to blame the individual officer and the lack of training time most agencies have with their firearms.
> 
> That's all well and good&#8230; and utterly irrelevant.


WRONG GUN: Why The Most Popular Gun For Law Enforcement Is A Mistake - Bearing Arms - Beretta, CZ, Glock, Police, Ruger


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Article is pure opinion... triggers don't pull themselves, lol. No real statistics either, sources?

If one trains with their finger "high on the slide" while drawing, searching and engaging... there is no trigger pull (weight) issue. The fact that the author does not believe this is possible, to train til it's instictive to keep your finger off the trigger under stress, is laughable. 

I've taught enough "professionals" to attest that it is possible, through training, to keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.... to the point it's instinctive and done without thinking. Moving the finger to the trigger and pulling the trigger is a decision that is made consciously when properly trained and that training is continual.

Negligence does happen, we're all human... and humans are not perfect. I think it is more of a training/repetition/familiarity issue than a handgun design flaw.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Glock did an excellent job in coming up with a handgun that would be an easy transition from DA revolvers. It's just as likely that a person under stress will get fouled up using a lever safety, in my opinion. If a person is incapable of observing the most basic rules of gun handling, under stress, he may be in the wrong career field.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

I am probably way off base... using a 'cocked & locked' gun, releasing the safety is part of the draw process. With the safety off, the trigger is considerably more 'sensitive' than the Glock trigger is. So, where's the beef?


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## Bobshouse (Jul 6, 2015)

hillman said:


> I am probably way off base... using a 'cocked & locked' gun, releasing the safety is part of the draw process. With the safety off, the trigger is considerably more 'sensitive' than the Glock trigger is. So, where's the beef?


Glocks do not have an external safety, nor do they have an exposed hammer. Cocked & Locked refers to a 1911 style handgun, where the trigger is more sensitive.


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## Bobshouse (Jul 6, 2015)

Even though I believe this article is a bunch of stinky male cow dodo.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Bobshouse said:


> Glocks do not have an external safety, nor do they have an exposed hammer. Cocked & Locked refers to a 1911 style handgun, where the trigger is more sensitive.


Golly! No kidding?


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I don't know but it looks like the writer of that report did his or her homework.
Indeed is the lack of an external safety a problem in the daily life of an street officer. No external safety and a 3 lbs trigger additional a short trigger is a danger especially when the officer find him/herself in a hot situation. It is more and more a fact that this monday after the fact discussion with that know better, do betters and better-humans and giggle girls and Stephanopoulos guys in Good Morning America TV the heat against the LEO turn of full heat.

I now for a fact that many will critique me on my statement because a external trigger is obsolete especially when we talk to the Glockists.
But I just want to point out that I have read in an Austria Block (That is where the Glock come from) where the Police force is asking Glock for external safeties to protect the policeman on the street.
The same in France where the towns asking H&K and Sig for weapons with a longer heavy trigger pull.
Also the German Police Union is discussing to buy weapons that have external safety or have at least a very heavy first DA trigger to pull that makes the first shot extremely and very intentional.

I was awaiting such discussions also here in the US. More and more Liberal criminal protective discussions about LEO and the use of a Firearms made it necessary to think about that. 
I know also that many looking down on Police outside the US and think that they are all idiots, at least did I hear such statements not only one time. Well you will never convince them different.

And I wish myself more safety on weapons. How often did I hear on the range from the next line? " WoW that ding shot and I was not even ready". I'll think than - No that ding didn't do anything. You idiot pulled the trigger, had the finger to early on the trigger guard. But I keep my mouth shut because they get easy angry. Their gun cost often 1000 Dollar and should do everything automatically even mind reading. Right? I know here are only hard core firearm professionals that don't need any safety and an external not at all, but that what I observe on the range, thank god it is not happen every time.

Fact is that Police Unions especially because of a inflation of accusations against police forces in the Socialist countries asking for an extra safety mechanism that asks for one more step before shooting.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I agree with the article and find it more than just mere opinion by the author. Unfortuately, many police officers do not get the proper training with their prospective firearm due to a host of factors, one being a departments budget.

A documented fact is when the LA Country Sheriff's Office transitioned from the DA/SA Beretta 92 to either the Glock or S&W M&P pistol; cases of negligent discharges by officers more than doubled from the transitioned year of 2012. 18 documented cases in 2013 and 30 in 2014.

I would likewise contend this trend is not only limited to the LA Country Sheriff's Office. However, to be fair, I read that the great majority of LA County Sheriff's Officers were trained on the 92 to place their trigger finger on the bang switch w/ safety off. Their training mantra was "on target, on trigger." Perhaps an engrained training technique which is hard to break and especially under stress.

One need only to do a quick google search: "Statistics on Glocks or M&P's and Negligent Discharges by Police Officers" to determine if the article holds weight, it indeed does. 

I do believe the author is reporting facts based on as many as 20% of officers under stress place their finger on the bang switch as opposed to to riding the trigger finger up above the trigger guard under stress.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

If I was a LEO with a choice, I'd have a CZ P-09 with a decocker.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

This article has been around for a while, and many folks have pointed out that the author is "full of it" in multiple areas (as some others have already pointed out, above, most notably TAPnRACK and denner, specifically with his comment on M92 finger-on-the-trigger training).

But the biggest fail is in the author's statement that traditional DA designs "can be shot just as fast and accurately as any short trigger pull design", which he tries to use to make it seem as though there is no utility or reason to use the short-pull designs.

This is a load of bull, and can be proven as such in several different ways.

There are no long-term winning/champion competitive shooters who use a traditional DA pistol against all comers in combat- or defensive-style competitions by choice. Even those who shoot this style of pistol as sponsored shooters (with tons of free practice ammo) cannot match a shooter of equal skill with a short-pull pistol like a Glock or M&P. For this reason, many competitions separate-out the DA-pistol shooters into their own class, to keep the competitions apples-to-apples; otherwise the short-trigger-pistol shooters would make applesauce of them.

The most-often-given reason that a department moves from a traditional DA pistol to a short-pull pistol is to improve the shooting skills of its officers, both in training (where the improvement in qualification scores is well-documented) and in real-world gunfights. Once you have enough data points to compare (which takes some time), hit ratios are almost universally better using short-pull designs, relative skill of the shooter aside (meaning: it's true for the newbies, the expert shots, and everyone in-between, IF they made the effort to learn/use the pistol correctly).

Side-note: as far as I'm concerned, there should not be any comparison including injury-caused ADs/NDs that happen during disassembly/maintenance. If a person is so stupid/dense/distracted that they shoot themselves during a completely non-stressful disassembly of their pistol for cleaning, they should tossed out of the department on their ear or be issued a Nerf gun. The inability to follow simple instructions like "remove the magazine and inspect the chamber for ammunition, in THAT ORDER, before pulling the trigger" should be cause for permanent loss of a person's LE certificate. If you can't safely handle your weapon in a calm non-stress situation, you should NOT be using one in stressful situations. Find another job.

Let's be clear here (and I'm sorry if I'm stepping on any toes with this rant), cops have been accidentally/inadvertently shooting lockers, walls, vehicles, and people (themselves and others) with their handguns ever since day one. Whether they are futzing around with the gun when/where they shouldn't be, or quick-draw practicing, or getting sloshed and shooting bugs off the ceiling (actually happened in a town I know of), or hanging their loaded pistol on a clothes hook in the bathroom stall (hook through the triggerguard of course), or popping the safety on their SA auto off a bit early and touching one off as they come out of the holster or up on target, or just daydreaming when they shouldn't be, this is NOT a new "thing". Long/heavy pull, short/light pull, short/heavy pull, long/light pull, DA revolver pull, with or without as many safeties as you'd like; it doesn't matter. Some folks are gonna "send one" no matter what, and most of the rest won't, no matter what.

But taking a tool (pistol) that is ALREADY a challenge to use fast and well, and advocating making it MORE DIFFICULT TO USE FAST AND WELL when you NEED it to save a life, just to try to reduce ADs/NDs from idiots who won't be stopped in any case, is the height of irresponsibility. Train hard, brook no slackers/daydreamers in this training, emphasize the importance of safety and a culture of weapon safety and proper use all the way from the Chief to the probationary new hire, make it known what will happen to those who screw-up in this area, and you will reduce these instances to a minimum. You'll never get rid of them altogether, but that shouldn't prevent us from trying to do so.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

DJ. If you mean, like a Beretta 92, when you say "DA", a guy named Stoeger would disagree that you can't be fast and accurate. I've never been top half at a match (USPSA Production). My best draw to a 7 yard torso is 0.9 sec with a CZ.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

I've owned and shot a LOT of M92 pistols, and I trained USAF folks on them for years. I shot them in defensive/combat-style competitions, and got my ass beat by some folks who were WAY better with them that I was. When I switched to a short-pull auto, I turned around and beat THEIR asses quite handily; right up until THEY switched too, and then I was back in the middle of the pack again (for good, this time).

I'm not saying you (or anyone else) can't be fast and accurate with a TDA pistol; many people are.

I'm saying that if you're good with a TDA, you'll be GREAT with a short-pull design. And if you're already GREAT with a TDA, you'll be SUPERB with a short-pull design (all given the same amount of practice and effort, or course).

And if you're already unbeatable with a TDA or a revolver, you're Jerry Miculek or Dave Sevigny or some other demigod-like bullet launcher, and it doesn't matter WHAT you use.

It's been my observation that many of the CZ folks who do well are usually "cheating" by starting cocked-and-locked (with the designs that allow it). Force them to shoot the TDA as a TDA (first shot DA), and they will be right back in the middle of the pack with the rest of the TDA shooters. :mrgreen:


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

DJ Niner said:


> I've owned and shot a LOT of M92 pistols, and I trained USAF folks on them for years. I shot them in defensive/combat-style competitions, and got my ass beat by some folks who were WAY better with them that I was. When I switched to a short-pull auto, I turned around and beat THEIR asses quite handily; right up until THEY switched too, and then I was back in the middle of the pack again (for good, this time).
> 
> I'm not saying you (or anyone else) can't be fast and accurate with a TDA pistol; many people are.
> 
> ...


I don't start cocked and locked. Neither does the 5 time winner of USPSA Production, Ben Stoeger. He shot a Beretta and then went to a ,CZ Clone, Tanfoglio. The data shows, at the top level, either the DA guns are better or at least no worse. This year, the top 16 production finishers, slightly favored DA guns. If anything, the sponsorship dollars drove people to striker fired guns. Sig had their sponsored shooters pushing the P320. Last year, almost all of the top 16 were DA guns. A great shooter can be great with either.

I moved from a Glock 34 to a CZ and my performance immediately improved. For self defense, I'm not quite sure which I prefer. My reason for preferring CZ to Glock is the nice beaver tail on the polymer frame guns.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

DJ Niner said:


> There are no long-term winning/champion competitive shooters who use a traditional DA pistol against all comers in combat- or defensive-style competitions by choice. Even those who shoot this style of pistol as sponsored shooters (with tons of free practice ammo) cannot match a shooter of equal skill with a short-pull pistol like a Glock or M&P.


DJ, but of course there are always execptions to the rule, notably Ernest Langdon: 
2003 IDPA Custom Defensive Pistol Champion
1998 & 2000 IDPA National Stock Service Champion
2000 USPSA Limited Nationals Production Class Champion
Three-time IDPA Winter Nationals Stock Service Champion
Two-time World Speed Shooting Champion, IDPA Stock Service Class and;
More than twenty additional National, Regional, and State shooting titles

You really couldn't say that Jerry Charles Miculek, Jr. with his DA revolver is slow as he is renowned as the fastest and best all around shooter in the world, emptying a five-shot DA revolver in 0.57 seconds in a group the size of a playing card. Or as mentioned above Ben Stoeger.

DA or DA/SA's if you will can be shot as fast as short pull designs, and you really can't say that after the first DA shot the subsequent SA shots are not of a short pull design and in many cases superior to a striker fired trigger. It just depends on who's shooting them and their technique and training.


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## Bobshouse (Jul 6, 2015)

hillman said:


> Golly! No kidding?


No kidding, now go back and play with the kiddies in your sandbox and let the adults talk.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Bobshouse said:


> No kidding, now go back and play with the kiddies in your sandbox and let the adults talk.


Too bad your reading comprehension is sandbox level.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I find this article to be false from one primary point. Training. Yes there have been a number of AD's with the Glock pistol in a number of police departments. But I would wager that this has more to do with training, as in the lack of it, than the pistol's fundamental design. And by training, I mean not only range time to include active shooting training but also learning how the gun works and how all of the parts operate together in the gun to make it work.

I have run thousands of rounds through Glocks over the past 20 years and have never had an AD or ND in one of them. Granted I have never pulled one of these guns on another person but I have pulled another of my guns one two young men. As for my Glocks, I do all of my own tuning and have detail stripped these guns many many times to do this work, so I know how they operate, how the individual parts work. and what tasks they perform.

The Glock pistol is a great design, one of the best in a combat handgun, and has proven itself time an time again. So I don't put much sand in this article. I would put the blame where it belongs... on the persons using the gun. Certainly not the gun.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

When we blame the GUN we start to sound like those other people. If you own and carry a gun it is your responsibility to know all you can about it. Guns are dangerous and if you have one YOU are responsible for it like it or not.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> I find this article to be false from one primary point. Training. Yes there have been a number of AD's with the Glock pistol in a number of police departments. But I would wager that this has more to do with training, as in the lack of it, than the pistol's fundamental design. And by training, I mean not only range time to include active shooting training but also learning how the gun works and how all of the parts operate together in the gun to make it work.
> 
> I have run thousands of rounds through Glocks over the past 20 years and have never had an AD or ND in one of them. Granted I have never pulled one of these guns on another person but I have pulled another of my guns one two young men. As for my Glocks, I do all of my own tuning and have detail stripped these guns many many times to do this work, so I know how they operate, how the individual parts work. and what tasks they perform.
> 
> The Glock pistol is a great design, one of the best in a combat handgun, and has proven itself time an time again. So I don't put much sand in this article. I would put the blame where it belongs... on the persons using the gun. Certainly not the gun.


Would you agree that it takes more training to avoid an ND with a Glock? My biggest problem with striker fired guns is what can happen when holstering a striker gun with a round in the chamber. You can catch something on the trigger and never know it. Hence the term, "Glock leg". When I holster my CZ, I put my thumb on the hammer.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

The fact that so many LEO's use the Glock safely indicates that it can be done. Those who can't master it probably have trouble mastering other aspects of LE work, too. I wouldn't favor dumbing down the job to a point where any jerk could be a cop.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Actually, I have talked to any police officers over the years. Large departments apparently have a LOT of ADs with Glocks and Glock like guns. The public just never finds out about them. I have been told that some depts have at least couple of these incidents a week. And, they said that previous to these types of guns, these depts had zero or maybe one a year. 

I agree with the concepts in this article, which is why I posted it. I also personally only carry DA/SA guns for self defense. But, I have been doing that for years now.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

As I said before, Ship, that's always been true, no matter WHAT pistol/revolver a department issues. I personally possess the bullet of the first "official" clearing-barrel 9mm M9 AD fired in the Northern Tier of the USAF. It was done at my base, and I was the one in charge of all pistol training at that time, and I was _PISSED_. That goober almost made my entire training staff look bad, but we had taken the precaution of inviting the commanders of every squadron to a meet-and-greet at the range, so we could give them the approximate transition schedule, talk about the differences between the M9 and the previous revolver(s), discuss recommended changes in issuing/loading/clearing/turn-in procedures, and allow them to ask questions. On my commander's recommendation, each commander deliberately put a staff officer or training officer in their first M9 class so they knew what we were teaching and how the classes were being run, and so they had a person in-house that could answer questions about the new training. We KNEW there were going to be potential challenges with the changeover, we made sure safety/operation/clearing were well-covered, and had put a LOT of emphasis on NOT "running on autopilot" with the new pistol, but ultimately, it didn't matter.

Within 6 months of the changeover, a cop (Law Enforcement specialist) popped a round into the clearing barrel (sand-filled 55 gallon drum used as a "safe direction" while loading and clearing firearms) during turn-in. He pulled back the slide to clear the chamber first, released the slide forward, THEN removed the magazine, flipped the decocker to up to "fire" and pulled the trigger, all while the clearing barrel NCO was BSing with a person nearby (instead of monitoring the barrel procedures like he was supposed to). It cost them both 15 days' pay, some extra duty, and one or the other of them attended every LE pistol class held for the next year, so they could describe to each class the dangers of not paying attention during weapon handling from a first-person point of view (my idea, embraced by their commander).

Fact is, we did everything we thought we could do to stop a potential AD/ND with the new pistols (the M9s are DA/SA, as you know), and it didn't matter; one doofus with his mind somewhere else, and another person who was supposed to be monitoring the clearing process was instead trying to get laid, and they both came together at the same point in time, and "Boom", we had our first AD/ND. Under these types of circumstances, it doesn't matter WHAT kind of pistol they are using; if you deliberately pull the trigger, it's gonna go bang.

Years before I'd arrived at that base, they'd had several ADs with the S&W revolvers; investigations revealed it usually was some LE cop on a remote gate/guard post, messing around with their revolver, and at some point they'd pull the trigger while practicing quick-draw, or snag it on the holster while reholstering in a hurry as someone approached. A long, heavy DA revolver trigger didn't stop these ADs/NDs.

I am also of the (totally unsupported by hard data) opinion that in general, compared to 20-30 years ago, people nowadays are more stupid (or act that way more often), less responsible, and more likely to not follow directions (even critical safety-related directives), and that this probably contributes more to the current rash of ADs/NDs than any particular pistol/action type. If society _is_ moving in that direction, and we're selecting police officers from that society, can we really expect anything other than more ADs/NDs? No easy fix for THAT problem, if it does in fact exist.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

DJ Niner: "He pulled back the slide to clear the chamber first, released the slide forward, THEN removed the magazine, flipped the decocker to up to "fire" and pulled the trigger, ..."

That is called a 'brain fart'. Until Remove The Magazine First becomes automatic, those farts happen. Still, weren't those guys switching form 1911s?


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

No 1911s in general use, when I was "in" (from the late 70s until the 90s). The USAF was using various S&W .38 Special revolvers before the changeover to the 9mm M9. Mostly 4-inch model 15 Combat Masterpieces (adjustable sights), with a scattering of 4-inch model 10s, 2-inch model 56s (a heavy-ribbed-2"-barrel, square-butt, adjustable-sight revolver similar to the model 15), and a few of the general officers even had some 2-inch Colt Detective Specials stashed in the Armory.

The Combat Arms instructors had access to match-grade 1911s for competitions and training, but were not allowed to issue/carry them.


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