# New to forum, having trouble with my Para Ordnance



## Bryan

I've had my Para since returning from a tour in Iraq last September. It was a special offer to those on deployment. I've always been a "rifle" guy, but when this was offered to us I thought it would be a great commemorative to pass on to my son or future grandson, so I bit on it. I have had nothing but problems from the first time I fired it. It would fire the first round that was chambered and then immediately jam. Occasionally I could get two rounds in a row off before it would jam. Called Para, they offered to pick it up, we couldn't work out a time, I decided I'd send it on my dime when I had tiime, got shoved under the bed for months, finally sent it in through an FFL, Para said the extractor was bad and they replaced, recieved gun back...........and its the same. The damn thing is a semi-auto not a single shot. I've called and talked to whoever would answer the phone only to be transfered to Customer Service (if you could call it that). Apparently, nobody works in customer service because nobody answered the phone. I've left 4 messages, talked to at least one supervisor and still have not recieved a call back. I've been very respectful about it and have requested my money back. At this point I've resorted to a public forum for my frustration and have no hope of recieving a call back from this company. I have a $750 paper weight with 5 magazines. 

P.S.-Does anyone want to buy a Para 1911 hi capacity?


----------



## Bryan

http://www.mccallknives.com/album1_018.htm
http://www.mccallknives.com/album1_019.htm
http://www.mccallknives.com/album1_020.htm
http://www.mccallknives.com/album1_021.htm
http://www.mccallknives.com/album1_022.htm

Not sure how to post a picture, but I'm trying.


----------



## VAMarine

You're not in the Navy are you? If so please tell me you're not with RIVRON3...

Sorry to hear about your troubles, my brother in law organized a group buy for his unit of the fancy pants Para pistols with unit logos etc. A lot of guys that bought them are complaining of issues and he's crying to me about it despite the fact I told him not to buy them...

What exact model is it? Does it have the "Power Extractor"? If it says PXT on the gun it probably does and will probably have to go back to Para to be fixed. IIRC the PXT has a larger extractor channel than a normal 1911 so if the PXT is causing issues it can't be easily replaced with a standard extractor.

What exactly is the gun doing, or rather not doing?

Does the gun have issues with all mags or certain mags in particular? I've had four Paras over the years and I always replaced the factory mag springs with aftermarkets as there were many reports about bad mag springs. A bad mag spring can really jack up a pistol.

Was this an individual purchase or a group buy?

(Edited to add

I just saw the pics, I'm pretty sure that big funky "X" indicates the PXT, and glad to see you're not in my BIL's unit.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

I, too, would like to know exactly how it "jams."
Does it misfeed? Does the new cartridge "stovepipe"? Does it fail to extract, and "reloads" the already-fired case? Does the fired case "stovepipe"?
Is it at all possible that you are not gripping the gun tightly enough, and with enough arm rigidity? "Limp wristing" usually results in a jam of some sort.
More information, please.

The magazines in your pictures seem to be presenting the top cartridge at an appropriate angle. Does the angle change, as cartridges closer to the bottom come up for presentation?


----------



## EliWolfe

Onliest one absolutely sure cure for all those troublesome semis out there. Spelled REVOLVER! :smt082
Sorry, I like semis that work but am a wheelgunner by nature.
Eli :smt1099


----------



## Bryan

Ok...sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this. I'm a postman and its been really busy this time of year. 
VAMarine and Steve, it is model PX1445xxx with the "power extractor". It fires the round that is first chambered and extracts the casing just fine. It gets hung up on the next round, either stove piping or if it makes it to the chamber it does not slide all the way forward. On occasion I can push the slide forward with some effort to finish the chambering of the round. Mostly it will not move forward and I have to clear the weapon and start all over again. The mags pictured are the ones that came with the pistol from Para. I do not have any aftermarket magazines and I definately shouldn't have to get any. Its a brand new pistol and should fire at least two magazines without a hiccup in my opinion. I dont think I'm limp wristing the gun although I've only had powerful revolvers in my lifetime. One, a Ruger Vaquero .44 magnum that I seriously regret selling, and the other, a Ruger SP101 (.357). And no, I'm not in the Navy. I prefer a little more excitement, Infantry all the way. :smt1099

I've since sent the gun back to Para with a note to return my money. I talked to a woman on the phone and she said it shouldn't be a problem. However, I talked to a man in the service department and he said it will be "evaluated". Whatever, I have no confidence in the gun. 

Bryan


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Next Question:
Does (did) it do this with full-metal-jacket bullets, with hollow-points, or with both?

If the gun did this sort of mis-feed with FMJ bullets, I would say (without ever having handled the gun) that the problem is probably either a rough feed ramp (or a discontinuity at the bottom of the feed ramp), a bad magazine, or a little of both.
Since the magazines _appear_ to be feeding the first cartridge at the correct angle, I would look at the feed ramp, and check carefully for roughness or a sharp edge somewhere.
To create a stove-pipe or a hood jam with a FMJ-bulleted cartridge, the bullet nose would have to hit a ridge or other discontinuity that would "bounce" its nose sharply upward (assuming that the magazine still feeds at the correct angle). That ridge or roughness could be pretty small, and hard to see or feel.
Notwithstanding all of the above, it still could be a magazine problem.

Please pass on to us whatever the manufacturer has to say, or says he does about the problem.

It's a few moments later. I just had another thought. It might be that damn' "power extractor"!
The M1911 is a controlled-feed device. That is, the cartridge leaves the magazine only while it is under the control of the extractor, which guides the cartridge's base into the correct position against the breech-face as it feeds upwards.
If the "power extractor" is applying a little too much power while it's doing its controlling job, it'll push the cartridge sideways and out of alignment with the chamber, which would cause a jam because, in the end product, the bullet's nose would be misdirected.
Why the "power extractor" was ever invented is beyond me. Browning's "ordinary" internal extractor had been doing its job in an entirely satisfactory manner for almost 100 years. While the original, solid extractor can be carefully bent to alter its feed and extraction characteristics, the "power extractor" has a spring-loaded joint that can't be adjusted under normal circumstances.

Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets...


----------



## oldscot3

There is no excuse for poor customer service, a few happy customers treated well are worth way more than tens of thousands of dollars spent on advertising campaigns. I hope you get your issue resolved eventually. Having said that though, I must say my experience has been different.

I have a LTC with the power extractor. I have fired many, many rounds through it, factory and handloads, standard pressure, +p hollowpoints, FMJ round and flat point, jacketed and lead. No problems ever, except on one occasion when I was experimenting with +p and heavy recoil springs.

A friend of mine, who liked my gun, bought one identical to it. He hasn't fired his quite as much as I have mine, but still, he's never had a problem.

I don't think we can tar the entire brand because of your, and perhaps a few others folks, faulty weapons. Forget the company service department. Take your weapon to a reputable gunsmith and have him check it out. Maybe the gun in the right hands can be made operate properly without it costing you too much. It might be better to invest a little more in it, and have a good pistol, than dump it on someone else, or else take a big loss.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

This month's "Web Bench" posting from Brownells may shed some light upon the matter at hand.
The description of the device Brownells mentions includes some insights on this difficulty.
Click on: GunTech : Brownells Gunsmith Tech Corner - December 2010 - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools


----------



## VAMarine

Steve M1911A1 said:


> This month's "Web Bench" posting from Brownells may shed some light upon the matter at hand.
> The description of the device Brownells mentions includes some insights on this difficulty.
> Click on: GunTech : Brownells Gunsmith Tech Corner - December 2010 - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools


The feed lip geometry of a double stack Para is going to be different than a single stack, but I'm with you on the PXT. :smt1099

My brother-in-law lent us one of his SF45s to tinker with. I'm going not going to diddle with it too much, but for as much issues as some have been having with them I want to see how the guns have or haven't changed since I owned a few.

As for the OP's gun, I'm placing bets on either:

Extractor issues
Chamber/feed ramp issues
A combination of the above.


----------



## andyo5

When I first bought a hi-cap magazine for my Para LDA, I had problems like this. Turns out that the magazine was not properly welded together and was not controlling the rounds properly. So they would often jam. Para replaced the mag with a new, good one and problem was solved.
I also had two Mec-Gar 10 round mags with no problems at all when used in this gun. The gun also had the power extractor, which worked quite well and gave me no problems. The extractor was also easy to remove, clean, and replace.
I recently sold the gun, but only because its weight ruled it out as a carry gun.
I have a strong feeling that your gun can be corrected without major surgery. I'd let Para do it if I were you.


----------



## vbe75

*Mag spring*

Have a P12 when i first got this i had similar problems. Canged the mag spring, and problem solved.


----------



## Bryan

*Still no resolution, getting the run-around*

It's been a while since I have provided an update. Things have only gotten worse from this company.

EliWolfe--I'm with you on that one!

Steve M1911A1--It does it with factory loads, both round nose and hollow point, and my own hollow point loads. You were correct in your deduction. According to Para the Power Extractor was the culprit. They said they replace it. I personally dont think they did anything to the gun at all.

oldscot3--I'm very glad you had a positive experience with Para. I have given them way more than an opportunity to make this right. I definately should not have to take a brand new gun to a gunsmith to make it work correctly. It should fire correctly from the factory. Period.

After almost a month and a half of not receiving a call, I called them. I was referred to a woman named Cauline and/or Pauline (not sure of the spelling). She told me that she had talked with the "Service Department" and indeed the gun did not work and I would be receiving a full refund. She took my bank account information. We discussed at that time if no payment was received in my bank account after a week's time, to call back.

I called back on February 8th after 14 days of not receiving said refund. Cauline assured me that the refund was submitted on January 26th. I waited another 7 days, no refund. I called Para back on February 14th. To my surprise, the lady that answered said Cauline no longer works for Para. I said I wanted to talk to the person who replaced Cauline. After much questioning I finally pried a name out of the lady. Mandy would be taking over "my situation". Mandy was not available that day but would be in the office on February 15th. I gave the receptionist my phone number (again) and she assured me Mandy would call me the next day.

I waited until well after lunch and decided to call, figuring Para would not call me. Mandy answered the phone. I said great, just the person I need to talk to! After explaining that she was taking over "my situation", she replied and I quote, "I have no idea what is going on." She asked me to explain and I did. She took my phone number (again) and said she call me back before the close of business that day. Guess what, no phone call.

It's at this point that I realize I have been totally ripped off. I definitely do not have a commemorative firearm that I was hoping to hand down to my son and I will probably never get my $775 back.

Moral of the story, do not buy a gun from Para Ordnance.

It is also worth noting that I made a formal complaint with the Better Business Bureau, complaint #418302 filed on February 9th.


----------



## vbe75

The key with the Para's seems to be to change out the mag springs, even if they are new! have had the same problem with several para mags. change the spring problem goes away.


----------



## RustyNut

Go to Para's website and register in their forum. There is a section on repairs/customer service. From what I have seen the guys who complain there get help. I was having problems with clips and they sent me new ones.


----------



## janerik

Answer to Bryan and others.
I bought a Paraordnance 16-40 Tod Jarrett signature model. t looked nice out of the box and felt good to operate until the first test on the range. Nothing worked. Jamed with the 3 point jam. Shot a couple of rounds and then jammed.
much have to be done. 
The ramp had to be polished
The edge on the chamber input had to be fluted and polished.

It worked better but not at al as it should. Last round jam.

The height of the magazine follower had to be increased and the slidestop part had to be grinded. Magazine lips had to be very slightly wideneded. The spot welding on the back part of the magazine had to be grinded and polished.

Now the last round jam dissappeared.

>Suddenly the power extractor broke. This is the worst part of a handgun for sale to customers. It seems that Para has not known that it baged into the barrel with about a half mm. Had to mill out a track there to avoid collision between the extractor and barrel. Bought a new tip for the extractor. Adjusted the oversize extractor tip and tension by adjusting the little niple just behind the hook. Polished the extractor for smooth operation.

The headspace was way out of tolerances. The barrel hood was far to long so that the gun was not fully into battery


Now the Paraordnance works flawlessly thousend rounds without a tendency to maloperation.

The gun is now a very attractive gun. BUT no product should leave the factory in this condition. Its directly disrespectful towards the customers to issue such a gun which could not have been testfired at all and with such bad workmanship on the barrel, extractor matching.

What was good on the gun was the trigger pull. It was crisp and exactly how I wanted a trigger to be , even the pull weight.

The looks of it is good and now as it works I love it.


----------

