# The unreliable 1911



## bg18566 (Apr 24, 2015)

Many experts these days bash the 1911 platform. It's antiquated, prone to malfunction, finicky about magazines and requires constant attention. It's a weapon you can not stake your life on.
A Lot of these experts are of dubious background, some are the real deal. Some run training courses that resemble high speed low drag military training. Only a few run training courses that get a citizen ready for real life carrying a sidearm everyday. But over and over the 1911 gets trashed. So then why did MARSOC go back to the 1911? Why did several federal, city and state agencies go back to the 1911? Because it's one of the few platforms (see below) ever invented that can stand up to high volume training and the test of time. Albeit don't monkey with "tuning" if you are not a trained armorer. Don't use cheap magazines. Clean and lube every week. and send your unreliable 1911's to me for proper disposal.

When I retired these were the platforms in use. 1911, G17 & G19, M9, P226 & M11


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## maddog (Dec 10, 2015)

amen.....


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

I think part of the problem is there are so many 1911's. Just about every gun manufacturer has some version of the 1911. I think people judge them by some of the lesser quality 1911's. I own one 1911, a S&W. It has been a 100% reliable shooter.


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## bluedog46 (Jan 29, 2015)

I have not had any problems with mine. The only three big knocks against the 1911 are the typical 8-9 rounds ( lots of bad guys and too few bullets), its heavy for conceal carry and is often heavy. Its probably the greatest platform ever made.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

bluedog46 said:


> ...The only...big knocks against the 1911 are the typical 8-9 rounds ( lots of bad guys and too few bullets)...


With appropriate practice, even an old guy like me can do a 1911 speed reload in less than a second-and-a-half, last shot to first shot, on the move, making all good hits.
All it takes is practice, practice, practice.

Too heavy to carry? Yeah, OK, but the weight pays off in recoil control. I think that it's a good bargain.
Heck, for about five years, I carried an _all-steel_, Officers'-Model-size, custom-made 1911. It was built long before Colt's decided that a really small 1911 was a good idea.
Heavy? Yeah. Reliable? Yeah, that too. Easily controlled (for a tiny gun)? Most assuredly.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I kind of centered on 1911's. I don't know where you hear all this bad press. 1911's are more popular today than ever before and more companies are making them than ever before. I doubt any of that would be true if they were as bad as the OP says or think they are. 

I've owned 6 different ones of different configurations and manufacturers. Obviously there are many guys out there who've owned MANY more than me. My full sized ones were all 100% reliable. The only ones I just couldn't make works were two used 3" guns, Para and Colt. I carry a 4" S&W Series E with alloy frame. It's the 4th different gun that I've tried to carry and for me it's The Correct answer. Others were a full size 1911, Ruger GP100, Sig P230, P220Elite, Stoeger Cougar-40. It's an 8+1 gun so, 9 rounds of .45 well shot should be plenty enough. If you can't shoot, 100 rounds won't be enough. 

A full sized 1911 was NEVER designed or intended to be a CCW gun so if it doesn't work very as one, don't be so surprised and critical.


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## miketx (Jul 20, 2015)

My Springfield is 100 percent. My Colt is 100 percent. The only one I had that was a piece of trash was a RIA compact. No matter what it manifested different malfunctions all the miserable time I had it. Any gun can be a lemon, thankfully most are not. I even had the 'premiere' reliable handgun fail twice with mechanical failures. It was a Glock 22. 

So as far 1911's prone to failure, baloney.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

I have a Springfield Armory 1911 that was given to me NIB by a friend. It is a lower end "GI" model which is no longer made by SA, which had the replica tiny sights, short trigger, and small ejection port. I have had some work done to it (longer skeletonized aluminum trigger, better sights, match bushing) and it shoots well but it is not what I would call reliable. I have had a number of failures to feed and I have shot only factory ball ammo through it. I have also had a number of failures to eject with vertical stovepipe jams.

Sadly, the SA 1911 has been the second most unreliable pistol I own. First place by a wide margin goes to a "Walther" (Umarex) P22.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

My semi-informed semi-guess (I have owned a cheap Turkish-made 1911, and done some reading) is that the main trouble area is related to the feed ramp. The magazine is an easy fix, just get good ones. I don't know if an external extractor would improve the FTE level.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

bg18566 said:


> Many experts these days bash the 1911 platform. It's antiquated, prone to malfunction, finicky about magazines and requires constant attention. It's a weapon you can not stake your life on.
> A Lot of these experts are of dubious background, some are the real deal. Some run training courses that resemble high speed low drag military training. Only a few run training courses that get a citizen ready for real life carrying a sidearm everyday. But over and over the 1911 gets trashed. So then why did MARSOC go back to the 1911? Why did several federal, city and state agencies go back to the 1911?* Because it's the only platform ever invented that can stand up to high volume training and the test of time.* Albeit don't monkey with "tuning" if you are not a trained armorer. Don't use cheap magazines. Clean and lube every week. and send your unreliable 1911's to me for proper disposal.


The only platform? When you use exclusionary terms like ONLY, my BS detector goes on alert. Certainly the 1911 is a wonderful handgun, but it is not the only platform that can stand up to high volume and the test of time.

GW


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

hillman said:


> My semi-informed semi-guess (I have owned a cheap Turkish-made 1911, and done some reading) is that the main trouble area is related to the feed ramp. The magazine is an easy fix, just get good ones. I don't know if an external extractor would improve the FTE level.


I have a bunch of the SA factory 7 rd magazines for it which I have relegated to range use. If I use this pistol as a truck gun, I will use only Wilson Combat or Chip McCormick mags. The pistol is now at a gunsmith who has polished the feed ramp and cut the barrel throat. But that won't help the failures to eject. I suspect it is an extractor issue as well, which will be the next step. It may also require lowering, flaring and fluting the ejection port.

I might eventually get the wrinkles ironed out of this pistol, but by the time I do, I will have invested enough money in this "free" pistol that I could have gone out and bought a much more reliable, high quality .45 ACP new instead.


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## bg18566 (Apr 24, 2015)

goldwing said:


> The only platform? When you use exclusionary terms like ONLY, my BS detector goes on alert. Certainly the 1911 is a wonderful handgun, but it is not the only platform that can stand up to high volume and the test of time.
> 
> GW


You are quite correct. I should have stated it as "one of the few platforms"


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

hillman said:


> ...I don't know if an external extractor would improve the FTE level.


I don't believe that it would. It might even go the other way.

The external extractor was added to some modern 1911s because it's easier to machine, to machine a place for, and to install (in a factory setting).
It is not an improvement, _per se_, but rather an expediency.

An external extractor cannot be "tuned," in the sense of "easily moved or modified, to improve extraction."
The Browning-designed internal extractor can indeed be tuned. Merely bending it a little, or doing a little file work, causes big changes in extraction and ejection reliability and pattern. If you know what you're doing, it's a "kitchen table gunsmithing" job.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I don't believe that it would. It might even go the other way.
> 
> The external extractor was added to some modern 1911s because it's easier to machine, to machine a place for, and to install (in a factory setting).
> It is not an improvement, _per se_, but rather an expediency.
> ...


I am sort of getting tired of waiting on the gunsmith since he has had this pistol for quite some time. I am wondering if I should pick the pistol up from him, pay him for the work he has already done, and mess with the extractor myself. I don't think I would trust myself to lower and flare the ejection port but I could return the pistol to him for that, or send it to the Custom Shop at SA if the extractor work did not resolve the issue.

I was getting pretty consistent case dents on the open end of the ejected cases and sometimes on both ends. My understanding is that case dents are not a big concern if the pistol is otherwise ejecting reliably. On another forum I was offered some advice and one individual who sounded quite knowledgeable suggested replacing the ejector and fitting either a Wilson Combat or an Evolution Gun Works extractor. I have watched some youtube videos and I am aware that Jack Weigand makes both an extractor tension measuring device (that works in conjunction with a trigger pull gauge) and an extractor tensioning device. I have seen a quick and dirty method of checking ejector tension by putting a spent casing in the slide under the extractor claw and shaking it around.

To adjust extractor tension, I have seen some recommend simply clamping the rear end of the ejector in a padded vise and carefully bending the extractor bar in the direction the claw is pointing. One person suggested adjusting extractor tension by increasing the tension until a round would not chamber because the rim wouldn't clear the extractor claw, then bending the extractor back the other way to reduce tension a bit.

I know that aftermarket extractor claws often need to be reshaped a bit and sometimes the locating pad height needs to be reduced, but I really don't have much of a clue how to do this.

I'm sorry if I hi-jacked this thread but any suggestions that would be of value to a "kitchen table gunsmith" would be much appreciated.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Unless you are willing to buy several replacement extractors before you begin to experiment, I suggest _against_ doing your own extractor work.
Before you've learned what you need to know, you will have ruined a couple of them, at least.

Also, always remember the gunsmith's best advice: Work on _the least expensive part_, not the most expensive part.

If you're going to do extractor work, _do not modify the slide's ejection port_.
Get the extractor to work exactly the way you want it, first. You may then find that lowering and re-shaping the ejection port is unnecessary.

*P.S.:* Some gunsmiths do each job in the order in which it arrives in their shop. Some, however, do the most lucrative jobs first. And some do the easier jobs first. This is why I always suggest getting to know the gunsmith as a friend, and even getting permission to watch him work (or even to help). You then not only have a say in which jobs get done in which order, but also, since you're standing there, you're guilt-maneuvering him into doing your job first (but without saying anything, of course). And, at the same time, you're also learning all sorts of useful tricks and techniques.
(Sometimes it surprises me: How much I subliminally learned while watching, and later helping, my own local gunsmith while he was building my competition pistols.)


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

I have to object to the OP suggestion that the 1911 is an unreliable platform. I have a full size Kimber, Custom Target II, and a Commander sized Ruger SR1911CMD. Both have been rock solid, and I have carried the Ruger more than once when CC.


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## 1911crazy (Jul 16, 2015)

One problem I notice is loading the first round in the chamber then letting the slide close over it can detune the extractor.
To chamber the first round it must be fed from the magazine only. Then put another round in the magazine to fill it.
If the extractor goes over the case rim when you load the first round by hand the extractor becomes unsprung. It looses its tension. This is when the stove pipes begin.

I found all my different priced 1911's to run flawlessly. You don't need a high dollar 1911 to get a good one.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

That's really good advice, and I forgot to include it.
*Thank you!*

Browning's original 1911 arrangement called for "controlled feed," in which the cartridge was always contained and controlled by the pistol's slide, as it transitioned from magazine to chamber. Remember that the 1911 was, primarily, a cavalry pistol; and it had to work reliably, no matter what the horse and its rider were doing.

Furthermore, although you may find it hard to believe, the 1911's chambered cartridge actually "headspaces" more on the extractor's hook, than on the chamber's mouth.
You can prove this by purposely loading a short cartridge case with primer, powder, and bullet. _If that case is permitted to feed from the magazine_, it will fire just as if it were the longer, proper length.
It will be held in proper place by the extractor's hook, not the case's mouth against the ridge in the chamber.


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## 1911crazy (Jul 16, 2015)

I learned through experience. I purchased every how to work on 1911's DVDs that's offered. I wanted to learn everything I could. I wanted to a build on my norinco using all affordable new parts just to see how accurate it could be. Orginally my well used norinco had a loose barrel bushing in the slide. I purchased a new surplus military 45acp barrel for $59, a nm barrel bushing for $14. I fitted it for a 100% lockup in full battery with no barrel spring in either direction. In full battery pushing on the barrel it had no movement the link is perfect. The lug engagement was also within spec. I also added a FLGR KIT W/18# recoil spring. I also added the disconnector ramp. I lubed it with moly then assembled it. 

Using wolf 45acp ball ammo she now shoots clusters and cloverleafs at 25yds no matter who shoots it. For a well used 1911/$300 with some affordable new parts with the proper fitting I have a accurate, dependable 1911.

i purchased every 1911 tool that brownells offers.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

1911crazy said:


> ...i purchased every 1911 tool that brownells offers.


...That's like me and leatherworking tools.
There was never enough specialized gadgets, ever, to satisfy my craving.


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## 1911crazy (Jul 16, 2015)

Setting the proper tension not guessing on the extractor using the pull gauge and case tool allows me to set it and forget it. I know it's set exactly correct. Know I'm sure it's right so if there is still problems I know it's not the extractor. I'm sorry but I'm a perfectionist.

All my 1911's run flawlessly. 

Tip. On all my new to me 1911's new or used a complete disassembly and cleaning first. At the same time the feed ramps get polished to a mirror finish. The machining marks are removed if they have any. Flare and chamfer the bottom of the extractor. Adding a disconnector ramp helps remove that bump in the cycling. The FLGR removes the recoil spring binding and coiling noise when we run stronger 18#recoil springs. Add a adjustable trigger to take up the creep. Next I lube the 1911 with TS-70 moly. If do all these changes correctly the 1911 will cycle much faster and smoother.

With all these changes your 1911 will run happy, happy, happy.


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## Hardluck (Nov 2, 2011)

I've never had any problems with mine that weren't mag related. Which is good because I lack the tools and skill to work on any gun myself. 

I guess I'm lucky that I can carry a 1911 Gov't, IWB, as many hours as needed without any discomfort. It just works for me.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

I suspect the Late Jeff Cooper would have a more colorful response, let alone the State of Utah.


Springfield Armory 1911a1. 1 bad mag- replaced, pistol reliability: 100%. Maybe 2 stove pipes in my years of shooting - steel case 45. Don't use that type anymore.


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## 1911crazy (Jul 16, 2015)

Well I had a new 1990 SA 1911 series 90 in black park that stove piped one round per 8rd mag. This actually taught me how to clear a jam fast. It sat in the safe for over a decade++. I had other guns to shoot. After gaining the knowledge on how to work on the 1911's and building my norinco, I remembered my SA SERIES 90 in the safe. Since I had the extractor tools it took me 20 minutes to tweek and tune the extractor. This SA 1911 runs ammo flawlessly now. This SA is so purdy in black park I never parted with it. At the time I didn't have a box of ammo through it. After test firing it I may have two boxes of ammo through it.


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