# Have you ever had to?



## mtn.shooter (Apr 5, 2010)

My wife and I discuss guns often. She is fine w/ them as fun, plinking, sport or hunting, but is afraid of SD purposes as she feels drawing a pistol may/will escalate the problem. My opinion is that the situation needs to be dire before I draw and leveling a weapon MAY disperse the tension w/o shots fired. Now I am beginning to doubt myself as I figure if I need to come to bear, lead is flying. I am comfortable w/ defending myself and my property w/ lethal force. I am asking w/ all due respect and discretion, how many of you have had to come to bear and NOT have to fire a round? I am not sure if I phrased my question well, but I wonder how many times "I have a gun"..."I will shoot you"..."got out of my house or I will shoot you" works in lieu of lead.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

:watching:


If I have to pull my gun, the trigger is being pulled...


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

If you cannot reconcile the taking of a life if the circumstance presents itself, then you have no business attempting to employ a firearm in the task, be it SD/HD or CCW. You will be under more stress to becoming a victim through hesitation or victimizing an innocent by not placing your shot under duress.

Think this out carefully and deliberately before you make any decisions on an individual basis. It is NOT a "couples" type of decision. What happens after that then may have to be worked on in a "couples" manner.


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Growler67 said:


> If you cannot reconcile the taking of a life if the circumstance presents itself, then you have no business attempting to employ a firearm in the task, be it SD/HD or CCW. You will be under more stress to becoming a victim through hesitation or victimizing an innocent by not placing your shot under duress.


If I may copy your post and change one word....
If you cannot reconcile the taking of a life if the circumstance DEMANDS, then you have no business attempting to employ a firearm in the task, be it SD/HD or CCW. You will be under more stress to becoming a victim through hesitation or victimizing an innocent by not placing your shot under duress.


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## mtn.shooter (Apr 5, 2010)

All good stuff! Thanks! I think the only issue is that I would have ZERO problem taking a life if there were ANY chance it could mean my or my families life or well-being. I am also sure that my wife does not have a problem w/ that. The issue arises if I do need to act in such a manner, there is no guarantee that I am walking away. We both study Tae Kwon Do and both realize, no matter how good you are, there is always somebody better faster and stronger. I have come to terms with the ramifications of pulling a trigger and it could mean anything from my death to jail to lawsuits to simply some self doubt. She is not sure that throwing lead is safer than evasion.(and yes, we do have egress planned and practiced).


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## mtn.shooter (Apr 5, 2010)

Oh, and yes, my worst fear would be taking out a teenager just looking to steal some booze.


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## 8Eric6 (May 9, 2010)

anyone breaks into my house for even a pencil is being shot but, I guess that's just me. I also live in a high crime city.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

A teenager stealing booze can quickly become a thug with a bat/knife/gun. Many may remember my explanation regarding drawing and NOT firing, but in case you missed it, here's the short version of the lesson I learned.

Being presented with danger and your response to it is not an ON/OFF situation. It's dynamic throughout every fraction of a second of the incident. I've cleared leather before, didn't have to shoot because the situation changed. A crow bar wielding A$$hole one second, can become a totally compliant glob of blubbering wussy the next. 

I will say that the situation does have to present a VERY clear danger to someones life and limb before even considering un-holstering (it did in my case). If it doesn't, you'll pay the price for drawing your weapon, either legally or emotionally, if you do pull the trigger.

I've changed my viewpoint over the years a bit. If danger is approaching, I'm not going to wait for the very last second to try and deploy my weapon, nor am I going to walk around with my hand on my gun all the time. My new viewpoint, BE AWARE of your surroundings, see danger before it becomes danger. Something as simple as crossing the street, waiting for things to pass, or simply not being there are far better options than having to present/use your weapon.

Either way, if you carry a gun, practice with it... A LOT! Take some formal defensive pistol training, it's worth every penny, and then some. The mental part of the equation? Well, that's each individuals cross to bear... but I do know I'd have a damn hard time living with myself if someone harmed a loved one and I stood there doing nothing to prevent it. That's my justification, yours may vary.


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## Biathlete (May 10, 2010)

America is just very afraid. I can tell by the way a lot of you talk. The way you solve the problem is to pull out a gun and well I don't think that's right. If someone hasn't seen 'Bowling for Columbine' (the film) yet I suggest you watch it. 

It's an ambiguous subject because i understand its for self defense but i just feel America has over done it.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

I don't believe that using a gun to diffuse a situation should be part of your plan. Bringing a gun into a situation that doesn't involve your intent on actually using it puts you in greater danger. It may turn out that way, but if your bluff is called, either you're dead or you've armed a criminal.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Biathlete said:


> America is just very afraid.












you're right... we have nothing to worry about.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Biathlete said:


> America is just very afraid. I can tell by the way a lot of you talk. The way you solve the problem is to pull out a gun and well I don't think that's right. If someone hasn't seen 'Bowling for Columbine' (the film) yet I suggest you watch it.
> 
> It's an ambiguous subject because i understand its for self defense but i just feel America has over done it.


If you get your 'information' from Michael Moore films, then you are probably too ignorant of the actual facts to have an intelligent discussion on this subject. If you will examine some statistical records, you will find that concealed handgun licensees are the most law-abiding segments of the American society. You will also discover that the states with the highest numbers of licensees have the lowest crime numbers.

Just because we don't depend on the Mounties to show up in time to save our asses from the dregs of society, it is not necessarily because we are more afraid than Canadians. It just means we are less tolerant of those members of society who mean us harm.


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

In my case its because I have NO tolerance for someone that intends on doing me or mine harm!


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## 8Eric6 (May 9, 2010)

rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6


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## MorganOverlook (May 4, 2010)

Biathlete said:


> America is just very afraid. I can tell by the way a lot of you talk. The way you solve the problem is to pull out a gun and well I don't think that's right. If someone hasn't seen 'Bowling for Columbine' (the film) yet I suggest you watch it.
> 
> It's an ambiguous subject because i understand its for self defense but i just feel America has over done it.


I can understand how you might think that. There are probably some people in America who have overdone it. There's a small segment of our society who enrich themselves by stoking the fears of others. There are people who listen to them and arm themselves to the hilt in preparation for the end of the world as we know it.

I'm not like that. The FBI or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms will never storm my home to confiscate my cache of weapons. I won't shoot up a military base or try to break into the Pentagon. In other words, I'll probably never make the news because the people who report the news never seem to care to report about RESPONSIBLE gun owners.

So you get a steady diet of the idiots, the stupid, and the irresponsible..and you form your opinion based on that.

It's unfortunate. I'm not like that. I'll go out on a limb and say that most of the members of this forum aren't like that.

We're not walking the streets of Dodge City looking for a gunfight.


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## mtn.shooter (Apr 5, 2010)

Really, a lot of interesting answers and opinions and I appreciate that. I know that real life experiences are personal and not about bragging rights, so my question is "have you ever had to". You can answer yes or no...or relate the account. I am seriously wondering what % of carries have had to fire their weapon in self defense...outside of military or LEO duty. Hope it is not too personal...just curious.


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## Freedom1911 (Oct 22, 2009)

Bisley said:


> If you get your 'information' from Michael Moore films, then you are probably too ignorant of the actual facts to have an intelligent discussion on this subject. If you will examine some statistical records, you will find that concealed handgun licensees are the most law-abiding segments of the American society. You will also discover that the states with the highest numbers of licensees have the lowest crime numbers.
> 
> Just because we don't depend on the Mounties to show up in time to save our asses from the dregs of society, it is not necessarily because we are more afraid than Canadians. It just means we are less tolerant of those members of society who mean us harm.


+1. You pegged it, Michael Moore, and all. The point about MM was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read Bowling for Columbine. Who in their right mind believes anything that comes out of that infested rats pie whole anyway?


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## MorganOverlook (May 4, 2010)

mtn.shooter said:


> Really, a lot of interesting answers and opinions and I appreciate that. I know that real life experiences are personal and not about bragging rights, so my question is "have you ever had to". You can answer yes or no...or relate the account. I am seriously wondering what % of carries have had to fire their weapon in self defense...outside of military or LEO duty. Hope it is not too personal...just curious.


To answer your question directly, I've never. I served in the US Army from 1966-1970 and never fired a weapon other than on the shooting range. I drove a taxi (at night) in New Orleans for two years without encountering a problem. I didn't have a gun at that time either.

On the other hand, I have had renter's insurance everywhere that I have ever lived. It covers me for full replacement value in the event of fire or theft. In over forty years, I've never filed a claim.

It just takes once.


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## Biathlete (May 10, 2010)

Bisley said:


> If you get your 'information' from Michael Moore films, then you are probably too ignorant of the actual facts to have an intelligent discussion on this subject. If you will examine some statistical records, you will find that concealed handgun licensees are the most law-abiding segments of the American society. You will also discover that the states with the highest numbers of licensees have the lowest crime numbers.
> 
> Just because we don't depend on the Mounties to show up in time to save our asses from the dregs of society, it is not necessarily because we are more afraid than Canadians. It just means we are less tolerant of those members of society who mean us harm.


Bisley have you seen the film or not? I dont believe michael Moore presents his films with false facts, if anything his films are biased so the facts are still true but we only get to see his point of view, but he has on that particular film a statistic saying something like the states has 11,000 gun homicides each year and every other country has a few hundred at most, and they thought that it was because the states have more guns, but then they said Canada has almost just as many. So like its up to you whether you believe that or not but if it is true it contradicts what you said in a way.

I like the idea (someone else mentionned it sorry i dont have the name of quote) that if someone does break in or what not you bring out a gun in hopes to scare them away but not with the intention of killing or even hurting them. But i read some posts saying that oh if someone breaks in, im pulling out my gun with the intention of pulling the trigger

And Bisley I'm not trying to be condescending or anything dont take what I say as an offense


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## Biathlete (May 10, 2010)

js said:


> you're right... we have nothing to worry about.


I think the first one you can tell right by how the reporters and police chief whoever talk that they blow it out of proportion, obviously its a serious issue, no doubt but taking over america? anyways the solution here is not to give people in the drug industry firearms to shoot people that they owe money for drugs. so I don't think this is even a valid discussion point for this tread.

On the other hand the second video is probably a perfect example of what were talking about. Scary stuff I see why people would want protection, (guns) But it brings up i think another important point, of how the United-States should maybe banned all these assault rifles or just some better system, I know the U.S. are able to purchase a lot more firearms than Canada and maybe thats part of the issue, by eliminating that maybe you could eliminate more violence?

I hope that not everyone on the forum is against me here, im hoping you guys understand my point of view thats all.

one last thing, can someone tell me how the gun laws work in the States, what do you have to do to own a firearm and are there different classes so on so fourth. Thanks.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Ohhh please God, don't let this.get locked until I get to a real internet connection. My phone is too hard to respond from properly.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Biathlete said:


> ...anyways the solution here is not to give people in the drug industry firearms to shoot people that they owe money for drugs. so I don't think this is even a valid discussion point for this tread.


Was it Michael Moore who told you that we issue guns to drug dealers?

What is it that compels 'liberals' to always attach the blame in exactly the wrong places? It is ridiculous to blame inanimate objects for murder, as if they had minds of their own, that compel them to take human lives. You are giving the instruments used in conflict supernatural powers...do you also believe in ghosts and witches?

Here's some news for you: people get murdered with knives, baseball bats, and motor vehicles, every day. Do these objects also have this supernatural ability to select innocent humans for destruction?

The proper use of a self-defense firearm is to enable a weak person to protect himself from a strong person. Why are you opposed to that? I suppose that Canada is so much more civilized than the US that you can simply not even conceive of being attacked. Congratulations with that, and good luck for the future, because you are out of luck if some evil bastard goes through the victim selection process and it spits out _your_ name.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Biathlete said:


> I think the first one you can tell right by how the reporters and police chief whoever talk that they blow it out of proportion, obviously its a serious issue, no doubt but taking over america? anyways the solution here is not to give people in the drug industry firearms to shoot people that they owe money for drugs. so I don't think this is even a valid discussion point for this tread.
> 
> On the other hand the second video is probably a perfect example of what were talking about. Scary stuff I see why people would want protection, (guns) *But it brings up i think another important point, of how the United-States should maybe banned all these assault rifles or just some better system, I know the U.S. are able to purchase a lot more firearms than Canada and maybe thats part of the issue, by eliminating that maybe you could eliminate more violence*?
> 
> ...


America is capitalized by the way.

Referencing the items in bold...banning firearms does one thing really well... it keeps guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Do you really think a criminal, the person who's going to break the law anyways, cares about a ban on guns, or the legality of owning one? If you do, you've obviously never had a run in with a criminal. How did bad people kill/rob/steal before guns? That's right, with whatever was available. So, if they banned guns, I'm sure that all the criminals would suddenly follow the law and turn them in... right? :roll:

As far as people being "against" you, you do realize you're advocating banning of guns on a _GUN FORUM_, right? Probably not going to get too many people agreeing with your point of view.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)




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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Biathlete said:


> I think the first one you can tell right by how the reporters and police chief whoever talk that they blow it out of proportion, obviously its a serious issue, no doubt but taking over america? anyways the solution here is not to give people in the drug industry firearms to shoot people that they owe money for drugs. so I don't think this is even a valid discussion point for this tread.
> 
> On the other hand the second video is probably a perfect example of what were talking about. Scary stuff I see why people would want protection, (guns) But it brings up i think another important point, of how the United-States should maybe banned all these assault rifles or just some better system, I know the U.S. are able to purchase a lot more firearms than Canada and maybe thats part of the issue, by eliminating that maybe you could eliminate more violence?
> 
> ...


your missing the point.... but you have the luxury of not having worry about drug cartels invading your country. You have the United States as a buffer zone. Mexican drug cartels hire gang members, gang members kill, rape, kipnap, driveby shootings and break into homes everyday... so the 2 are connected. People in law enforcement will confirm this.

Every country has their issues, for example.... Canada chooses to slaughter millions of baby seals every year by clubbing them to death. We choose to protect ourselves from violent criminals who try and inflict their violent will upon us. It's too bad baby seals can't arm themselves...

Now, as for Micheal Moore... He uses the misfortunes of others to get rich... very rich as a matter of fact. My hope for people like him is that they live a very short life, and by gauging his current weight and eating habits... he'll either have a heart attack or stroke and he won't be here much longer anyway. I have a big problem with that POS and refuse to watch his one sided propaganda. He would make Joseph Goebbels proud.

*See Signature*


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## fliperoo (May 22, 2009)

*To all of you macho muscle flexers...*

...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

fliperoo said:


> ...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.


you might be right. should that occur all of us may very well be serving some of or the rest of our lives in jail. but it will be the first crime most of us are on record as having commited, and we will be alive, and our families will be alive. I'd say 25 to life is worth it.

There's a saying involving types of people, it goes to say that there are only 3 kinds of people. the first kind is 90% of the population world wide. This group is too weak, believe themselves to be too morally sound, or are just plain too ignorant of the reality's of the world to take precautions against the dangers of the world or even defend themselves. These people are your rape victims, the dead people being mentioned on tonights daily news, the neighbor whose house got robbed while he was in it. This group is known as prey.

9% of the population that isn't prey are those who see the opportunity to gain from prey, to feed from prey and forcibly take what it wants from prey, usually just forms of livelihood, but up to and including the prey's life. This group is known as the predators.

Mathematically speaking there is now only 1% left. This all too small group of people are those among the world who refuse to be either, who by one means or many means refuses to be prey, but, despite having all of the capabilities of being a predator, refuses to exist at such a base level of humanity. They are those who come running when they hear a scream, a cry for help, they are those who run into a burning building when help hasn't yet arisen, they are those who defend themselves, kinfolk and livelihoods, as well as their neighbors', they may be preyed upon by an unsavi predator, but the predator will likely regret his choice of lifestyle. This group refuses to turn a blind eye to the world, as it refuses to be a part of a system that practically caters towards predators. This group has many names. They are Patriots, they are hero's, riflemen and pistoleers, law abiding citizens, or this nations first and last line of defense. This forum's member's are mostly of this class. :smt1099


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

fliperoo said:


> this place is full of trash and looks like crap...


are you trying to get banned...? seriously...


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

fliperoo said:


> ...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.


You are either assuming knowledge or misinformed. For instance, in Colorado, if a person makes entry into yiour residence you can exercise deadly force without a "duty to retreat" without criminal prosecution. It's called the "Make my day" law. Many other states have in recent months adopted similar "castle doctrine" laws though there are some with a duty to retreat or other stipulations added upon the resident. There have also been several high profile recent cases where Texas homeowners terminated burglars while on the phone with 911 dispatchers and have not been criminally prosecuted.

Just last week there was a burglar killed in Denver that made the news as well. Officers were in the neighborhood responding to a break in/suspected home invasion. Home alarm went off and the cops found nobody in the immediate area. They heard gunshots a short distance away and responded. A homeowner apparently killed the suspect seeking a new/quieter target. The burglar was struck several times in the head as he was attempting to crawl into a ground level window. No criminal charges have been filed on the homeowner to date.


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## Highlander1911 (Jan 30, 2010)

Well there's 2 responders here that seem to rile up the membership, and justly so. 

As far as "macho responders", while we may never know what the outcome will be from the use of deadly force by one who may respond that way, it's safe to say it will be a life-sized event for that person. If he/she lives in a state or community that frowns on a persons right to self defense that event may be catastrophic. Perhaps the proud and self-assured individual protected his own life or his loved one's only to find he should have retreated to a slobbering candyass begging for his life in hopes that the obligatory 911 call was answered. Prosecution of such an action should be followed with a public outcry that gets international attention, and perhaps surely has in the past. How nice would "shangri-la" be to live in? All love and help and smiles 24/7. Not happening. I can't answer how I'd feel about taking a life as I've never been faced with the choice and never want to face it. I want shangri-la just like everyone. Faced with the choice, I'm certain I could and sleep well. It's not macho, it's a trust in one's rational mind to be able to do the right thing when that thing happens. In my house without an invitation in the wee hours would surely be met with the intent and follow up of deadly force. Nothing to prove in that scenario. I don't stand ready eager for an invasion, I don't ever discount the fact that it may happen. I keep noisy dogs as an alert, I keep loaded firearms within easy reach. 

To biathlete, there's so much more to self defense that Moore could never explain in any feature film and appears to not have the desire to show both sides, frankly in anything he does. I've seen them all and have pulled from them onesy-twosy things that make sense. His goal is to flame up those who think like him. I'll never deny how well researched his work is to be able to show what he does but the other side is missing. There's NOTHING he's ever done to support the common denominator you'd find in a forum like this. This IS a forum of responsible enthusiasts willing to defend themselves with that which they're enthusiastic about, firearms. Personally I love em. I like way more than I can afford. I feel great after a range visit. I feel confident in my ability and choice of gun. I feel like I'm part of a patriotic society that supports my right to SD and gun ownership. I feel proud of my wife who joins me in those visits, but will always worry if she'll freeze for 1 second too long. We're not all Harry Calahns or Martin Riggs, we're Americans who believe and practice our 2nd amendment rights. We're also not too different from any other enthusiast who collects and appreciates things mechanical or artistic. I feel that the responsibility and accountability that follows gun ownership is something to be admired and respected rather than chastized and insulted. 


For the record, there was one thing in "...Columbine" that thought was right on and from all the possible people, it didn't come from Moore. When asked, "What would you tell kids today?" of Marilyn Manson, he responded with "I wouldn't tell them anything, I'd listen." In context, that made perfect sense to me.


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## helodriver (Aug 1, 2009)

mtn.shooter - I'll answer your question - No. Just like 99.9% of all non-LEO gun carriers. Everyone has their own idea on when they'd use their weapon. Bottom line is that we'd all have to live with our decision, as it should be.


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## cmaki413 (Feb 11, 2010)

I've been living with my grandma out in the country, and break-ins have been happening like crazy around there since it's all elderly people with four-wheelers, tractors, and guns around the house. My grandma has taken to locking her door for the first time since she's lived there. So when the dog goes ballistic at 3 in the morning, I'm not walking to the door with nothing but a smile, if you catch my drift. 

As far as our gun grabbing friends like mike moore and other yahoos go, I'd be willing to bet they have security/body guards that carry those same "assualt weapons" that they are trying to condemn. FOr the public to have it is horrible, but for them, just as for most elitist arrogant jerks, they're special, and "need" the protection "more" than us.


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## cmaki413 (Feb 11, 2010)

And in response to the muscle flexor comment...I'd like to think I look better in orange behind bars, then in a suit in a wooden box.


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## Frank45 (Feb 21, 2010)

Gentlemen and I mean gentlemen, you handled this situation quite well. I am proud of each and everyone of you. Thank you all for being part of this forum and this thread. Some forums would have gotten totally out of control, when a couple of tweety birds like Biathelete and fliperoo try to rile the members. This forum by far has the most level headed, educated men and women. I can not praise you people enough and to the tweety birds,Michael Moore, Biathelete and fliperoo this is for you:butthead:


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## falchunt (May 8, 2009)

*Just wow*

First of all, Thank You Zhurdan...as your response was dead on. The trolls who posted their rediculous gibberish just need an education. Ignorance is one thing, but stupid is completely different. It is fairly obvious that we are dealing with both...

In my opinion, on the original question, I will be prepared for any threat that comes to my family, my property, or myself. I will do everything in my power to stop said threat. If all that I have to do is ready myself to fire a weapon, then great. If I don't have to take a life I would say that is a positive thing. At the same time, I don't go around planning to pull my gun, AKA Brandish, to "scare off threats" or intimidate. Long story short = I will do the _least_ possible to stop the threat.

As said before, I think you all handled the trolls very well.


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## Popeye (May 13, 2010)

As a recently retired LEO, I've drawn my sidearm many times. More importantly, I've answered many 911 calls in the Detroit area. So many people believe they will be 'allowed' to use their phone during a home invasion, robbery, etc.
The average self-defence shooting begins and ends within 6 seconds. In such cases, "someone" eventually calls 911 and LE arrives in time to secure the scene, collect the body, and begin the investigation.
The BGs actually know about 'phones' and do not allow their victims to make calls before being raped, robbed, mutilated and/or killed.
Too often, I've arrived after women [and men] have been raped, spouses and/or children killed/maimed/kidnapped, etc.

Times changed in the U.S., forever, when crack cocaine was introduced into the public... and we can't go back. Then came the big surprise of Meth. Now are the days of the criminal psychotic.

Bottom line is, if you 'decide' to draw a weapon, it MUST be with the full intent of using it... or suffer the consequences. Many good people have suffered horrible consequences before realizing that EVERYONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL SAFETY.


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## mtn.shooter (Apr 5, 2010)

This thread has been very interesting to me. Here are some of my take aways.
Bad guys exist everywhere and can strike at any time but you are most likely to have to defend your life in your own home.
I can mitigate most of the danger OUTSIDE of my home by being smart, vigilant, preventative and proactive. Avoid hot spots whenever possible.
My home is the place that I am most willing to use deadly force.
Using deadly force in my home will certainly meet w/ legalities, but more likely to be deemed necessary.
Brandishing is an option used by the foolhardy.
Open carry MAY prevent a "situation" but more likely will lead to fear, judgment and conversations I wish not to have.
I will keep up w/ this thread and continue to learn. Thanks for the input all!


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## onebigelf (Jun 4, 2010)

Time to get my feet wet.

The best advice I can give you on this topic is what was given to me. 

"If you are going to carry a gun, the first that someone should know of it in a "situation" is that sudden pain in their chest...
Never think of a gun as a "magic wand" to be pulled out and waved in the air to make a problem disappear. If you have to draw you have to shoot, or you shouldn't have drawn in the first place."

I've always felt like that was pretty good advice.

John


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## hogger129 (May 4, 2010)

mtn.shooter said:


> My wife and I discuss guns often. She is fine w/ them as fun, plinking, sport or hunting, but is afraid of SD purposes as she feels drawing a pistol may/will escalate the problem. My opinion is that the situation needs to be dire before I draw and leveling a weapon MAY disperse the tension w/o shots fired. Now I am beginning to doubt myself as I figure if I need to come to bear, lead is flying. I am comfortable w/ defending myself and my property w/ lethal force. I am asking w/ all due respect and discretion, how many of you have had to come to bear and NOT have to fire a round? I am not sure if I phrased my question well, but I wonder how many times "I have a gun"..."I will shoot you"..."got out of my house or I will shoot you" works in lieu of lead.


Not legally allowed to conceal carry in my state, but I have had situations where strange people have come to the door late at night (10pm). I came to the door with my Springfield Loaded in my hand and they turned around and left. There's some dog next door (pit bull) that always gets wild and out of control any time we mow the lawn. The owner says it doesn't bite. But it has nipped at my neighbor before. Well the other day it's out running around and comes across and is nipping at my dad and the owner comes out and says "don't worry it doesn't bite." Well a good friend of the family got mauled by a Rottweiler a while back on his bicycle and the owner of that dog said it didn't bite too. If that dog crosses into my yard and starts biting my mom or dad, I don't know whether I should shoot it, wrestle it off, or just wait until it goes away and then press charges later.

I think if it was biting and I thought it was going to kill someone, I would fire. Otherwise, I'd call the authorities and then try to wrestle it off and hold it down.

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Not to get too off topic, but a friend of mine who lives in another state (we went to school together) carries a concealed weapon and thought someone was following him late one night. Person walks up and says give me your wallet, well my buddy flashes his gun at this guy and the guy takes off running. Sometimes the sight of a gun scares people off. On another forum, someone said they were in some store while there was a robbery and had their hand on their gun, safety off, drew but never had to fire. The guy dropped his gun and the cops showed up and asked for his CCW license.


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## falchunt (May 8, 2009)

*?*

Hogger,

I get what you are saying but how is that related to this thread?


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

For me to draw my gun ... it will have to be a bad situation.

I can not imagine how bad I would feel if I had to shoot someone - you talk about ruining your life ..

But I've thought it through and have no doubt that I can and will shoot someone to protect myself or my family.

I sure hope none of us has to ... but we may.

:smt1099


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## nrd515525 (Feb 12, 2007)

The closest I came to shooting anyone is about 30 years ago, I honked at a car in front of me, sitting at the green light, not moving. At the next light, both the driver and passenger got out, with aluminum baseball bats, and were screaming they were going to bash my skull in. I was a security guard and carried a Dan Wesson Model 15-2 .357, and as the driver cocked the bat to smash my window, I pulled my gun, and when he saw it, he yelled, "He's got a gun!", and they got into their car and took off. I went home, and a few minutes after I arrived, the police showed up. I was still in my uniform, and it was nearly identical to their own, and they said that someone had called and said I had pointed a gun at them for "no reason". I laughed and told them what really happened. The cops said, "Why should we believe you?" I had a great answer, "Because unless I'm psychic, how would I know there are two baseball bats in the car, one blue and silver, the other orange and silver?" The cops let them fill out and sign reports and then busted them. The one guy, even after the cops told them the baseball bats gave them away, still didn't understand why they got caught lying. They pled guilty to filing a false police report.

I remember wondering if I would ever be able to hear again if I did have to shoot them. A .357 fired inside a car isn't fun.


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## BrooklynBoy (Jul 26, 2010)

*To shoot or not to shoot*

I have really enjoyed reading the responses as well as the different opinions expressed here. This is a very articulate no nonesense group!

Personally, If I have to pull my weapon I am going to use it. I go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and practice with the same weapon. If i need to pull my weapon I want to make sure I hit who I want to, where I want to. There are no second chances when it comes to protecting my family or self.

I have also noted a change in my demeanor now that i have a CCW and carry. I try to smile more, avoid confrontations and idiots, and not take on an aggressive posture. I have no intentions (nor have in the past) of provoking a situation or becoming a target.

My best advice is to practice at the range; take a course from an NRA instructor and pray for the best but expect the worse. One of the most important things my instructor told me is that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

BrooklynBoy said:


> I have really enjoyed reading the responses as well as the different opinions expressed here. This is a very articulate no nonesense group!
> 
> Personally,* If I have to pull my weapon I am going to use it*. I go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and practice with the same weapon. If i need to pull my weapon I want to make sure I hit who I want to, where I want to. There are no second chances when it comes to protecting my family or self. (snip)


Please keep in mind that situations are dynamic. They change from second to second and if you had to draw your pistol, and the situation changed... like say the bad guy dropped his weapon and you still shot them... well, lets just say that isn't going to fair well for you if there are witnesses, and there are ALWAYS witnesses.

Many people that I've trained, trained with and talked to have the same mentality as you do. I used to as well. Please just be mindful that situations are dynamic. Most of the people I've talked to/with about why they think like what I *bolded* in your comment is because they said they'll just wait to get their gun out until they know they have to use it. Personally, I'm working on the premise that I'll see the potential danger far enough out and simply move away, but if there's an immediate danger (and I mean serious danger), that pistol is getting deployed and ready for use. Then I'll re-evaluate the situation to see if it warrants pulling the trigger. Waiting until the decision point is already to the "must fire" stage may be too late. Food for thought.


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## flyinpolack (Dec 16, 2009)

*X2!*



Bisley said:


> Congratulations with that, and good luck for the future, because you are out of luck if some evil bastard goes through the victim selection process and it spits out _your_ name.


That is the best line of the week right there!
Awesome!


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## HadEmAll (Dec 27, 2007)

In answer to the original post only, and because I like the fact that you and your wife have discussed it, I'll give you my experience.

I've been carrying for 13 years. In that time, I've never visibly drawn, but have had my hand on the gun butt ready to several times. I can have my hand on the gun without it being visible because I carry almost exclusively in a Tommy's Original Gun Pack, always covered for the most part by an untucked shirt.

Almost all, about 5 times, because I was approached while waiting in my vehicle in one parking lot or another for someone, wife or kids, by a parking lot bum wanting blah-blah-blah. We had an influx of Katrina Trash in town (sorry, but not really) and seems like every parking lot in town for a while was an opportunity to be approached by somebody you didn't want approaching you, some rather aggressively. That has mostly dissipated, but some are still around, in addition to locals. They mostly approached on the driver's side from my rear quarter. Must be something they teach in parking lot beggar school. Probably gauging your alertness. Anyway, every one was told quickly to get where I could see them without breaking my neck or get the F away from my truck. None were given anything, and they all skulked off to bother somebody else. None got within arm's reach of my window. All were covered by a 9mm, .40, or .45 semi-automatic held below window level. None saw the pistols, but I suspect some knew by my body language that one was there. 

Once by a dog owner who took exception to me kicking his dog when he watched it approach me from his driveway to me across the street, in violation of the local leash laws. And after I had told him to call his dog. I guess he thought he was lord of that street. That was the closest I ever came to actually using my CHL. He never knew how lucky he was to be walking away. He never raised a hand, but the potential was there. I had my hand on the gun, and pointed at his gut while still in the gunpack. That one still bothers me. He had had a yard tool of some type in his hand when he started my way, and I just knew I was going to have to threaten to shoot him, but fortunately for him, he had dropped it at the edge of his yard before he got on the street. Standard stupid dog owner stuff, "She wouldn't have bitten you. You didn't have to kick her." I won't tell you my response, but it was to the effect that his dog and then he had no business approaching me, and he'd better get out of my face. 

I've heard the "gunslinger" mentality accusations by some on this site, but I found out right there that I desperately did not want to shoot the fool, but was prepared to. I've thought it over many times since, and am convinced I would have not been billed here in Texas, but would have been asking myself for a long time what could I have done differently.

We've had a recent string of parking lot carjacking going on here in San Antonio, so I'm on high alert these days. Good to be able to carry. 

There was actually a gun battle of sorts between a carjacker and a CHL holder in the parking lot of an Academy near my house this Sunday. The carjacker surprised him while he was loading purchases into his vehicle. Unfortunately the CHL holder took a bullet (non-life threatening) and the carjacker got away. Don't know if he was injured.


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## twomode (Jun 7, 2009)

I can't see how this thread made it this far. But I also have to wonder how insignificant your life must be to troll forums looking for a reaction. I figure it's a couple 10 yr. olds playing hooky from day care. 

I thought these types of questions were against the rules, no matter how sincere, eh?


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## charger5579 (Nov 6, 2010)

back in May my parents had some excitement at their house. They live out in the country and about 1130 pm the front door bell rang, then someone knocked several times then tried to turn the knob. Automaticly my dad knew something wasnt right because we have a large fence in our front yard and all of the gates are locked so people dont accidently let their dogs out. He knew someone had jumped that fence. My dad has a heck of a lot of guns, and my mom is retired law enforcement so needless to say there as a few guns at their house. Dad grabbed the shotgun and opend the door to a drunk trying to get in. He put the gun in the guys face while my mom called the police. He said that drunks whole demeaner changed when he saw that barrel in his face. Cops showed up and arrested him and were talking to my dad. They said if in fact he would have shot the man, it would have been completely justified because if our front door would not have been looked he would have barged right in the house. So just because you have to show a gun to someone does not mean you have to kill them. If that man would have still been aggressive towards my dad then it would have gotten ugly, but since he was intimidated of the gun things worked out and nobody was killed and nobody had to live with taking someones life.


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## charger5579 (Nov 6, 2010)

dondavis3 said:


> For me to draw my gun ... it will have to be a bad situation.
> 
> I can not imagine how bad I would feel if I had to shoot someone - you talk about ruining your life ..
> 
> ...


spot on!


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## charger5579 (Nov 6, 2010)

fliperoo said:


> ...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.


Not in Oklahoma!!! If i look out my window and a guy is coming down my driveway with a shotgun in his hand headed towards my door i can blow him away from inside the house if i feel he is a threat to me, my family, or my property! Thats a fact!!!!!


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

My neice is about 30 years old. I recently gave her a pepper spray cannister. It is perfectly legal to carry and use this in NY for self-defense.

I instructed her that if she felt threatened she should immediately grasp the cannister and orient it to have it at the ready for dispersal. 

I instructed her to NEVER mention to the bad guy that she has the spray. She should only verbally insist on the desired behavior ("go away", "don't come any closer" etc.). And at some point between 6' and 12' (minimum safe distance/maximum spray range) she should use it.

I am of the same position on hand guns. If a guy comes towards me with a knife, I will warn him to back off. But once he fails to heed my warnings and the threshold distance is passed then the gun comes out and the weapon is discharged. No further warnings such as "I've got a gun."


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Not that it totally fits with this thread, but it's a great tool for self defense... STACKING!

I went to an 8 hour class a couple weekends ago and one of the tactics introduced to us was called stacking. In the event you're beset with more than one bad guy it can be a great way to reduce their advantage and give you the edge.

Basically it involves moving away and in a circular direction so that if they're on either side of you, it puts both bad guys more "in line" with whatever you have to protect yourself. It doesn't work in every situation, but it can greatly increase your chances of surviving.

For instance, if there are two bad guys at your 10 and 2 position, you move quickly while giving commands to stay away (or whatever is appropriate at the time) and you move back and either to the left or right to put them both more in front of you. Given the 10 and 2 clock example where you're at the middle of the clock, it'd be like moving from the center of the clock to outside the clock around 3:30 or so. It essentially stacks the bad guys more in line. Of course, they probably aren't going to stand still so it needs to be "on the fly", but it does give you time to Observe, Orient, Decide and Act depending on their intentions. Hopefully going to the next class where they incorporate this into a full force on force class with airsoft guns (not a big fan of airsoft, but this may convert me as being able to actually practice drawing and firing on people with real guns isn't very fun for the role players hehe). Seems like it'd be something to practice and put in your tool box. We did it without even using blue guns. Just the act of moving to put them more in line. Try it (without guns of course), it's simple and effective.


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

Interesting concept, Zhurdan, I'll have to remember that one.

To answer the topic, though, in my case a no. Worst scare I've had was walking home from my ex-girlfriend's place around midnight, passing through a parking garage on the way home (better lit than the alternatives). A couple of big guys standing near a pickup saw me, yelled "Hey!" and started to come my way. Being a fairly skinny fellow, and too young for a CCW at the time, I decided to turn around and re-direct my course in a hurry. Big guys had a good laugh about "har har we scared him" and went back to their truck. I doubt I would've handled the situation any differently if armed, although I would've felt much better in case they'd decided to follow me.

KG


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## sincitizen (Sep 20, 2010)

the truth is nobody really knows if thry are going to pull the trigger when needed, when the problem happens you might freeze or you will control the problem how do you know if you havent been in the situation yet. just my 2 cents :smt1099


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

zhurdan said:


> Not that it totally fits with this thread, but it's a great tool for self defense... STACKING!
> 
> I went to an 8 hour class a couple weekends ago and one of the tactics introduced to us was called stacking. In the event you're beset with more than one bad guy it can be a great way to reduce their advantage and give you the edge.
> 
> ...


If you execute this well you can take care of 4 adversaries with a single bullet. Very cost-effective, and it minimizes the chance of a stray bullet doing damage to innocent bystanders. Cool.


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## bayhawk2 (Sep 25, 2010)

I would remind her of the Lubys in Texas of the people there
eating not having a weapon to defend themselves .When one of
the "crazies" commited to shooting randomly the people in the 
resturant.People hid helplessly under the tables while this nut
just went around killing them.(Senerio)If someone (say your wife)?
Had a weapon?Maybe could have saved a lot of lives.Maybe tell her this story.
Could it happen to you?Could it happen to her?Did it happen to them?


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

Packard said:


> If you execute this well you can take care of 4 adversaries with a single bullet. Very cost-effective, and it minimizes the chance of a stray bullet doing damage to innocent bystanders. Cool.


USMC Rules of Engagment #2: Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap, life is expensive.

:smt1099

KG


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

Came close but never had to...I could if I needed to I'm confident in that. I'm confident I could pull the trigger too. Guess it is all the "violent video games".


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