# Lite triggers and selecting a semi auto for self defense.



## rickclark28 (Apr 14, 2019)

After getting older and with many choices on the market these days one of my big issues has become lite triggers. I do not mind safety's on some firearms. But at 62 yrs. old I have become very cautious of lite triggers on my smaller shooters. Going through and evaluating my collection before I upgrade or purchase any new firearms. Triggers are a personal choice and everyone has their requirements.
I attempt to follow some basic rules for selecting a firearm.
Requirements Of A Life-Saving Concealed Carry Gun for Self Defense:
Reliable, it must work every time.
Effective, it must be capable of rapidly and reliably putting down a man.
Wearable, must be portable enough to carry at all times.
Ergonomic, must be easily operated.
The sidearm is a piece of emergency-safety equipment carried on the person in anticipation of need and intended to immediately terminate a sudden, lethal attack.
Reliability is the single most important element in the selection of a personal defense weapon.


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

I don't think a light trigger pull is a good idea for self defense. When you consider things like the heat of the moment and the adrenaline rush it may be too easy to unintentionally pull the trigger before you're ready. In some situations you may only have one shot. 
I believe that the majority of self defense scenarios will happen at short distances and a firearm with a standard trigger pull is all you need.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

The best self-defense firearm is the one that works every time and you can hit your targets with.
I don't change up my EDC because I know it works best for me, When younger I tried a few different carry pieces but always went back to what I know best.


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

tony pasley said:


> The best self-defense firearm is the one that works every time and you can hit your targets with.
> I don't change up my EDC because I know it works best for me, When younger I tried a few different carry pieces but always went back to what I know best.


That's true, find what works best and stick with it. 
I've had discussions before about enhanced vs stock when it comes to a self defense gun. Some think that they need as many upgrades as they can get to better defend themselves while I feel that a good reliable gun in original condition works just as well as long as you are competent with it. 
An IPSC race gun won't help when you only have about two seconds to respond. It boils down to the shooter, not the gun.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I am not going to say that an enhanced trigger is necessary but it does not hurt. 
If you keep your trigger finger where it belongs you don't need to have a less than ideal trigger.
My G19 has a Ghost Evo Elite hand fitted trigger and I am very confident using it for EDC. As a matter of fact I prefer it.
I have two other Glocks in my rotation that are factory stock. They work very well.

GW


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## Sabreeena (Oct 26, 2019)

Goldwing said:


> I am not going to say that an enhanced trigger is necessary but it does not hurt.
> If you keep your trigger finger where it belongs you don't need to have a less than ideal trigger.
> My G19 has a Ghost Evo Elite hand fitted trigger and I am very confident using it for EDC. As a matter of fact I prefer it.
> I have two other Glocks in my rotation that are factory stock. They work very well.
> ...


+1


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

I went from light Striker fired triggers to DAO and never looked back. For carry will not ever buy another. Never bought into the idea that under high stress you finger will not go to the trigger. And a light trigger is unforgiving. And I do not train under high stress conditions. In fact do not know anyone that does.
I understand that some folks, do not like DAO. They do not want to spend the time to invest in learning the skills or in some cases just cannot master one. The internet propaganda has lead to lighter triggers and shorter resets. EDC carry on the internet now seems like they are moving to Target guns rather than practical EDC.
I saw a video on this topic and was happy to see that I was not the only person to share this believe. And one other thing that stood out, was his comment "Shooting a DAO has made me a better shooter". I could not agree more.

Here is a quote for another poster that said it better than I have. "
How does a person train to overcome the challenges of a short light trigger? They can practice safe handling procedures to prevent ND's under everyday conditions, but training themselves under the stress they'll face in a lethal force incident is totally impractical for most people. We cannot practically duplicate the kind of psychological stress we'll be under in those conditions. The closest we might come is Force on Force. But how many civilians do that at all? How many LE's do that more than rarely? We do know that we can perform trained physical tasks like firing a double-action trigger under those conditions. But how do we avoid performing unwanted reactions like startle-response, sympathetic grasp reflex, contralateral contraction, and trigger affirmation? How can we even practice that? At best we can try to practice "keeping our finger off the trigger." But research has shown this to have marginal results at best even among those intensely and exhaustively so trained.

So, train DAO triggers that we can practice and achieve success with? Or try to train a part of our psyche that we cannot even access in practice?"


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Jeb Stuart said:


> I went from light Striker fired triggers to DAO and never looked back. For carry will not ever buy another. Never bought into the idea that under high stress you finger will not go to the trigger. And a light trigger is unforgiving. And I do not train under high stress conditions. In fact do not know anyone that does.
> I understand that some folks, do not like DAO. They do not want to spend the time to invest in learning the skills or in some cases just cannot master one. The internet propaganda has lead to lighter triggers and shorter resets. EDC carry on the internet now seems like they are moving to Target guns rather than practical EDC.
> I saw a video on this topic and was happy to see that I was not the only person to share this believe. And one other thing that stood out, was his comment "Shooting a DAO has made me a better shooter". I could not agree more.
> 
> ...


I doubt that I understand what all of that means. But if I understand the gist of it, when seconds count, you want a long heavy trigger to make sure that you don't accidentally put your finger in the trigger guard and fire a shot.
I don't own a DAO pistol to protect me from a sympathetic grasp reflex (if I am actually capable of such a thing) I do have single action pistols and train with them so that I can eliminate any contralateral contractions. So far I have not shot anyone that I did not want to.

GW


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

I'm gonna need a full keyboard for the this...

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## rickclark28 (Apr 14, 2019)

There are some good older threads on this forum regarding selecting a firearm. After decades of being stuck on snubby 38's and 1911's. I started several years ago to get to know my other semi autos. My goal this year is to try and expand my choices, decide what works and train with what works for me.
*PhuBai70 stated-> "find what works best and stick with it." That is what I am going to do.
*My journey begins now. 
Thanks for your feedback and continued input.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

rickclark28 said:


> There are some good older threads on this forum regarding selecting a firearm. After decades of being stuck on snubby 38's and 1911's. I started several years ago to get to know my other semi autos. My goal this year is to try and expand my choices, decide what works and train with what works for me.
> *PhuBai70 stated-> *"find what works best and stick with it."* That is what I am going to do.
> *My journey begins now.
> Thanks for your feedback and continued input.


Since no two people are the same, that's sound advise.


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## Rock185 (Oct 26, 2012)

rickclark, Reliability is my #1 criteria too. FWIW, in a high stress lethal force situation, where a shot or shots are actually fired, I doubt the average person is going to be concerned about how heavy the trigger pull was. There are other concerns that will take priority. The "rapidly and reliably putting down a man" requirement might be a bit problematic. I don't know of any service or compact size pistol that can always accomplish this in every circumstance. Common sense tells me that a .45 trumps a .22, but shot placement trumps all. A 1911 with a snubby .38 as a second weapon is what I carried on duty for several years. Those are not bad choices to be stuck on...


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

When it comes to self defense topics my mind usually goes back to my military days. We were all issued a standard (used) rifle and were expected to become proficient with it. 
During training we were taught the "quick kill" method when dealing with an up close sudden threat. We would walk single file along trails and at various times metal targets would pop up at ten to twelve feet away. The idea was to use the point and shoot method as quickly as you could. No sights involved, no aiming and you fired the weapon from a chest high hold. 
So, use a gun that is reliable and you have shot a lot so that you are very familiar with it. The rest, is all on the shooter.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

PhuBai70 said:


> When it comes to self defense topics my mind usually goes back to my military days. We were all issued a standard (used) rifle and were expected to become proficient with it.
> During training we were taught the "quick kill" method when dealing with an up close sudden threat. We would walk single file along trails and at various times metal targets would pop up at ten to twelve feet away. The idea was to use the point and shoot method as quickly as you could. No sights involved, no aiming and you fired the weapon from a chest high hold.
> So, use a gun that is reliable and you have shot a lot so that you are very familiar with it. The rest, is all on the shooter.


As I have mentioned here before, I practice "point shooting" very regularly. I use a Laserlyte training cartridge that projects a laser dot where the muzzle is aimed when the striker hits it. I use small squares of reflective tape at various angles and distances in my shop. I can hit a 2" x 2" square better than 50% of the time at around 7 yards. It is a lot of fun to take that practice to the range and punish my steel plates. 
The reliability is supplied by Glock on all three of my carry guns which are all 100% reliable.
Like you said, "Find what works best and stick with it." I found it and will stick with it!

GW


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

I've kept a revolver handy for home defense for a long time. In some ways I'm old fashioned but I'm working on it.
I have recently decided to put the revolver back in the safe and switch to my Glock 30. It's still new so I want to put a few hundred rounds through it before I make the switch. 
Like Goldwing said, Glocks are definitely known for their reliability and I will have no worries at all when I make the change.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Point and shooting is very important IMO.
If the other guy has a gun, and it's drawn you're sometimes or most likely seeking sufficient cover while possibly shooting off a few rounds getting to your cover. 
Engine blocks on vehicles, big trees, BIG boulders. Make good cover. Lol
Stay off the hard ground (concrete, asphalt ), to much deflection.


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

My defense with a firearm is limited to my home. I don't have a CCW permit and since I live in L.A. County I will never have one. 
But I have thought a lot about this topic, trying to consider every possible attack scenario and how best to respond. It became obvious that the bad guy has all or most of the advantages. He picks his victims, he chooses when and where to attack and most importantly, he uses the element of surprise to catch his victims off guard. When he steps out of an alley or pops up from behind a parked car his gun won't be tucked in his waistband. It will already be in his hand and aimed right at the victim's head. 
I'm not sure what the point of this post is. I need to stop drinking coffee after 6 pm.


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## mdi (Jan 11, 2020)

Perhaps I'm different, but I found striker fired handguns to have too long heavy triggers (FMK, Ruger LC9 and a few others I tried at the local gun shop). For many years I kept a plain old double action revolver handy and shot it a lot. I rarely used the sight unless testing a new handload and I got fairly good with my 3" 38 Special, "Point and Shoot". I too had a stock 1911 near by when I was entering unknown (dangerous) territory, like the LA riots when I had to drive through some questionable areas to get to work. For me I would choose either a 6 round DA revolver or an 8 round 1911 that I have shot a lot over any "wonder nine" I have tried (I'm not convinced I need 16 rounds in the gun with 16 more in a second magazine)...


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

mdi said:


> Perhaps I'm different, but I found striker fired handguns to have too long heavy triggers (FMK, Ruger LC9 and a few others I tried at the local gun shop). For many years I kept a plain old double action revolver handy and shot it a lot. I rarely used the sight unless testing a new handload and I got fairly good with my 3" 38 Special, "Point and Shoot". I too had a stock 1911 near by when I was entering unknown (dangerous) territory, like the LA riots when I had to drive through some questionable areas to get to work. For me I would choose either a 6 round DA revolver or an 8 round 1911 that I have shot a lot over any "wonder nine" I have tried (I'm not convinced I need 16 rounds in the gun with 16 more in a second magazine)...


I mentioned that I don't have a CCW permit but I did carry for two weeks after the riots. My office was near Jefferson and Crenshaw (where some of Boys N The Hood was filmed). 
Back then I had a 9 mm 15+1 semi-auto, a GP100 and a Redhawk so I obviously kept the 9 mm in my briefcase. When I left at 5:00 pm I carried it in my back waistband under my jacket until I got into my car and left it on the seat next to me until I got on the freeway. 
If I could carry today I would probably choose the Glock 30 10+1 from the guns I own.


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

pic said:


> I thought it was related to your point and shoot post, I was only agreeing on your upper post how important or necessary it could become.
> Sorry


That's okay, I didn't have a problem with your post. You made some good points.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

PhuBai70 said:


> That's okay, I didn't have a problem with your post. You made some good points.


My mistake, I reread it.
Then realized you were referring to your own post possibly, lol.
Keep posting !! Lol.
You have good information, California conservative?


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

pic said:


> My mistake, I reread it.
> Then realized you were referring to your own post possibly, lol.
> Keep posting !! Lol.
> You have good information, *California conservative?*


Yup, born in Missouri and moved to Southern California in 1957 when I was seven years old. 
I never got into the late sixties liberal thing like a lot of my generation and have been a conservative since before I knew what a conservative was.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

I did not mention my carry type in my first to not cloud my statement. I have carried a 1911a1 for 50 years while working 2 reloads now I am retired on the rare occasion I go into a city I carry 1 reload. Each of my carry guns have a light trigger. I still practice at least 3 times a week.


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## PhuBai70 (Sep 26, 2019)

tony pasley said:


> I did not mention my carry type in my first to not cloud my statement. I have carried a 1911a1 for 50 years while working 2 reloads now I am retired on the rare occasion I go into a city I carry 1 reload. Each of my carry guns have a light trigger. I still practice at least 3 times a week.


Thomas Magnum and Raymond Reddington both carried 1911s. How cool is that?
Kidding aside, I'm an old guy but I'm 6'1" and 180 lbs. so if I were allowed to carry I would consider one of my 1911s instead of my Glock 30 that I mentioned earlier.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

tony pasley said:


> I did not mention my carry type in my first to not cloud my statement. I have carried a 1911a1 for 50 years while working 2 reloads now I am retired on the rare occasion I go into a city I carry 1 reload. Each of my carry guns have a light trigger. I still practice at least 3 times a week.


Tony, your reloads are extra magazines?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Love my 1911, always carried extra fire power in the form of extra mags ,
Or my trusty glock


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## Babbalou1956 (Sep 2, 2014)

I started off with revolvers & shot them DA a lot. Later got 3 DAO pistols. I'm used to the feel of DAO so a SA pistol for carry probably wouldn't be a good idea for me personally. I'd want a safety on a SA pistol which I'm also not used to using. It's a training thing. At 63 I'd have to remember to do things different under stress. If I had started out on striker fired pistols with 4-5 pound triggers I'd likely be comfortable carrying them today.


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## terryna (Mar 15, 2018)

tony pasley said:


> The best self-defense firearm is the one that works every time and you can hit your targets with.
> I don't change up my EDC because I know it works best for me, When younger I tried a few different carry pieces but always went back to what I know best.


Nice opinion


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Babbalou1956 said:


> I started off with revolvers & shot them DA a lot. Later got 3 DAO pistols. I'm used to the feel of DAO so a SA pistol for carry probably wouldn't be a good idea for me personally. I'd want a safety on a SA pistol which I'm also not used to using. It's a training thing. At 63 I'd have to remember to do things different under stress. If I had started out on striker fired pistols with 4-5 pound triggers I'd likely be comfortable carrying them today.


Striker fired single action ??


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

Yes, I agree, carry what you want or prefer. I do belong to this group of thinking.

















https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Jeb Stuart said:


> *We do know that we can perform trained physical tasks like firing a double-action trigger under those conditions. But how do we avoid performing unwanted reactions like startle-response, sympathetic grasp reflex, contralateral contraction, and trigger affirmation?*



Is Todd L. Green (A Very Smart Dude) the author of this little gem?

GW


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

No, that was a different study.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Jeb Stuart said:


> Yes, I agree, carry what you want or prefer. I do belong to this group of thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When "A very smart dude" writes an opinion that includes absolutes like "always", "every", and "never" about what the shooting community blames, I must object.
I happen to be in that community and I don't recall "a very smart dude" asking me anything ever.
I recommend that our hero "Todd" let others decide his level of intelligence.

GW


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Todd Green is (was) a very smart dude and a subject matter expert in the firearms and training industry.

Personally I thought he was kind of a dick, but he knew his stuff and he wasn't wrong about much.



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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

Goldwing said:


> When "A very smart dude" writes an opinion that includes absolutes like "always", "every", and "never" about what the shooting community blames, I must object.
> I happen to be in that community and I don't recall "a very smart dude" asking me anything ever.
> I recommend that our hero "Todd" let others decide his level of intelligence.
> 
> GW


You might actually watch the video before commenting. I think others in the community have already decided his level of intelligence.Not sure why he would have asked you. If you do not like the man or his views that is fine.
The Clip was cut from "Lucky Gunner". Obviously he thinks the guy is a very smart dude.
And you can object all you want try and mince words etc. But it is what it is.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Chis Baker @ Lucky Gunner is another pretty smart dude.

As for Todd Green, he was a huge influence in my progression into looking at more advanced training via Ernest Langdon and Tom Givens as well as and time/scored standards in practice and getting into competition shooting.

He is missed by all that knew him.

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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

The point that I would like to make is that I don't want to buy a DAO pistol and train with it because that's what made someone else a better shooter. The longer heavier trigger that makes you less likely to shoot unintentionally has an effect on time and accuracy in my opinion. It adds one more element to the shot that is not necessary for me.
If I was worried about whether to shoot or not I would not have my finger on the trigger. When the time comes to fire, I do not want a long heavy trigger retarding the shot.

GW


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

Your viewpoint seems shared by many that have never shot nor trained with a DAO. Simply not the case with shooters that have, on the contrary.
But if you cannot shoot a DAO that is fine. There are plenty of guns out there that have extremely light triggers And even some gun smiths that can even lighten them further.
Lol, I have never heard the DAO as retarding the shot. Way over the top. Lol, Big difference of being Deliberate and the pull being retarded. .


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Goldwing said:


> The point that I would like to make is that I don't want to buy a DAO pistol and train with it because that's what made someone else a better shooter.


Then don't



> The longer heavier trigger that makes you less likely to shoot unintentionally has an effect on time and accuracy in my opinion. It adds one more element to the shot that is not necessary for me.


Only if you don't practice / work at it. Just the same as any other gun, but yes it is harder does take more work.



> If I was worried about whether to shoot or not I would not have my finger on the trigger. When the time comes to fire, I do not want a long heavy trigger retarding the shot.
> 
> GW


We all like to think that, but I've seen enough force on force training to see "trigger checking" where the trigger finger subconsciously makes contact with the trigger.

Shooter's don't even know it's happening and don't believe it till they see video or other shooters point it out.

It happens and startle response/sympathetic response is a thing.

That's why many will teach that the finger needs to not just outside of trigger guard but in a "high register"

Now the other side of this is that too heavy of a trigger can absolutely hamper accuracy. Just look at NYPD statistics with their 12lbs? triggers. Of course this can also be overcome with more practice than just the annual qual etc.

There are plenty of other legit reasons to not use a TDA or DAO gun. Trigger reach for shooters with smaller hands for one or those with limited hand strength etc. Or just the honest assessment that one isn't going to put in the work to make the juice worth the squeeze.

No ones saying that everyone should use a TDA or DAO gun, just that there are some very good reasons to do so.

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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

I've made a lot of the same moves as I'm now primary toting a Hk P30LS in light LEM. 

This splits the differences pretty much perfect for me in that it still retains the thumb safety that I'm used to from the 1911 days + I carry appendix, and has a long length of first pull like a TDA but the breaking weight is more Glock-like.

I've been messing with the Beretta LTT Elite of late as a possible replacement but I've been dealing with some really bad tendonitis in my right arm which makes that 1st double action shot a chore.


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## Brazos Dan (Aug 10, 2019)

PhuBai70 said:


> I don't think a light trigger pull is a good idea for self defense. When you consider things like the heat of the moment and the adrenaline rush it may be too easy to unintentionally pull the trigger before you're ready. In some situations you may only have one shot.
> I believe that the majority of self defense scenarios will happen at short distances and a firearm with a standard trigger pull is all you need.


I totally agree. At the risk of being berated as a "boomer", I'll admit to being 73, although I dont think a healthy distrust of light triggers on striker-fires is an age thing. My favorite 9mm for the range is a VP9, but I feel much more at ease with my decocker w/safety on the nightstand. This is not due to lack of experience either. I've been putting a LOT of lead down range for almost 60 years through nearly every configuration of handgun.


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