# New Handgun Owner Help Needed Please



## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Hello Everyone: I am happy to be on this site and proud to be new handgun owner. I like to tell people that I recently moved from a communist country to the great state of VA and I am now able to exercise my constitutional rights and have a concealed permit to carry my first handgun. Actually I moved from DC to VA but regarding gun laws I and others call DC the Socialist Republic of the District of Columbia.

Since I have bad arthritis I started out with Luger LCR .22LR, 8 shot. I know that it is very small for self-defense but better than nothing or a gun that will fly out omy hand after one shot. 

My issue that I need help with is for a very recoil sensitive shooter, is there much of a difference in the Smith and Wesson’s .38 Special 3” barrel weighing about 25 oz. and the .38 Speical 4” barrel weighting about 38oz? I was thinking that the extra weight and barrel length would absorb more of the recoil. I am interested in revolvers for their simplicity.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Congratulations on getting out of that hell hole! Go for the 38 oz 4" you are absolutely correct.


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Depending of the frame size of the S&W. The J frame pocket revolver, 5 shot cylinder 2" or 3" barrel can sting on recoil if you are sensitive to it. The K frame 6 shot will be kinder. A good Model 10 heavy barrel .38 special should be good. You may also want to look at the .32 Magnum (if you can find one and the ammo to shoot)


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Welcome ,
Is the revolver a carry piece .
Lesser recoil usually starts to become less concealable .
You will have to determine a proper compromise between recoil and conceal-ability that fits your needs.
Don't know the recoil specifics of the two s&w revolvers you are looking at.
good luck in your next purchase


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Model 649 all stainless steel and those of that ilk chambered in 357/38 Special +p weighing in at 23 oz / 652.1 g would be my pick for CCW. Shooting 38 special(non +p) would have soft recoil and be very controllable. The other 38 special models you've mentioned may be a little large and perhaps too heavy for comfortable carry. The stock S&W's have a somewhat stiff DA pull but ease up over time or you could have a lighter spring kit installed to make the DA pull lighter if you wish. Pachmayr or Hogue recoil tamer grips do wonders for taming recoil as well. I own a 637 38 Special +p air-weight weighing in at a little more than 15 ounces and with the Pachmayr grips and shooting non +p 38 special the recoil is not bad. It does have a little pop however which I like.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Welcome aboard the great ship of the Commonwealth of Virginia. What a difference a river makes.

If weight is not an issue, go with the 4" barreled revolver. It's extra weight will do as you hope and absorb some recoil. However, revolvers tend to have a high bore axis which translates into muzzle flip and an increase in felt recoil. Just thought you should know.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks for replying. If I understand you correctly Semi-Automatics have less recoil? Are there any simple to use and less complicated Semi-Autos that you would recommend with a caliber having lesser recoil?


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Nice reply denner. Also, thanks to eveyone for the other replies. Are these Pachmayr or Hogue tammer grips something that I could install myself and if so who sells them?


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks Sgt45. By the way what ever happened to those nice blue steel and black .38 revolvers that were prevalent before semi-auto became popular? In the S&W catalog the 4" revolvers have the Satin finish (what i call a Chrome or Chrome look).


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> Nice reply denner. Also, thanks to eveyone for the other replies. Are these Pachmayr or Hogue tammer grips something that I could install myself and if so who sells them?


They are sold practically everywhere, below to name a few. I have Pachmayrs on my 637 air weight and they made a big difference and give you more to hold on to as well. Quality second to none. Hogue are excellent as well.

Amazon.com: Hogue Rubber Grip S&W J Frame Round Butt Rubber Monogrip: Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com: Pachmayr Grips for S and W, J Frame Round Butt: Sports & Outdoors

Hogue Bantam Gun Grip for S&W J Frame Round Butt, G-10 FREE S&H 61167, 61168, 61169, 61667, 61668, 61669, 61767. Hogue Gun Grips & Stocks.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> Thanks for replying. If I understand you correctly Semi-Automatics have less recoil? Are there any simple to use and less complicated Semi-Autos that you would recommend with a caliber having lesser recoil?


That depends on the caliber, and make and size of the semi-auto and or size, weight, and caliber of the revolver. With the setup I described above, shooting 38 special non+p out of an all steel J frame chambered for 357/38 Special +p, I would venture to say felt recoil will be less or on par with a full size 9mm semi-auto but probably more like .380.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> My issue that I need help with is for a very recoil sensitive shooter, is there much of a difference in the Smith and Wesson's .38 Special 3" barrel weighing about 25 oz. and the .38 Special 4" barrel weighting about 38oz? I was thinking that the extra weight and barrel length would absorb more of the recoil. I am interested in revolvers for their simplicity.
> 
> Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks.


You might want to look in a Rhino revolver.... the barrel is on the bottom to lessen the recoil and muzzle flip... Some say it really lessens the recoil in that the recoil with shooting .357 is like shooting .38 and shooting .38 is almost like .22.....

Also the longer the barrel and heavier the weapon lessens recoil and muzzle flip........
Chiappa Firearms

Here is a review of the Rhino.... At 11:33 It starts a comparison of recoil between a Colt Python .357 4" barrel vs a Rhino .357 4" barrel......... Big difference.......
Chiappa Rhino 40DS "White Rhino" .357 Magnum Revolver Review - YouTube


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## donk123 (Jun 6, 2013)

to get to your question, yes, a longer barrel and more weight definately help with recoil. the 4" barrel should do the trick for you, as long as your not using +p ammo. i don't know if you want this for c&c or just the range. i wouldn't use this round for personnal protection, but for targets it would be great. semi-autos are really not too complicated, just a few more parts. if you can look into semis, then a bigger .380 or 9mm might be ok for you. cz has a discontinued .380(cz 83) that might be to your liking. 9mm would have to be on the larger size if you have hand issues.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> Thanks for replying. If I understand you correctly Semi-Automatics have less recoil? Are there any simple to use and less complicated Semi-Autos that you would recommend with a caliber having lesser recoil?


If the size and weight of the two sample handguns is around the same (revolver vs pistol) then yes, the pistol will have less felt recoil. This is largely due to the action imparted on the slide when a round fires. The slide is shoved rearward to eject the spent round's case and then cocks the gun for the next shot and strips a new round from the top of the magazine, forcing it into the barrel's chamber to put the pistol in battery.

Arthritis is going to hamper your ability to work a pistol's slide and to field strip that pistol for cleaning. This means if you do choose a pistol, you want to handle a number of them to see which ones have the easiest slide for you to work. If you go with a 9mm, the Smith and Wesson M&P series slides are lighter than many of the other ones on the market. Same for the Beretta 92 series. There are others for certain so take your time and check them out.

However for your particular concerns, a revolver may just be your best bet. Give the Ruger GP100 a serious look. This revolver has an excellent feel, good weight distribution, and is quite accurate. Plus in .357 Magnum, you have the luxury of shooting .38 Special loads if you are of a mind to do so.

Ruger® GP100® Double-Action Revolver


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

That was a very well written response SouthernBoy. Thank you. I believe my next handgun is going to be a .38 Revolver. Besides Smith and Wesson can you recommed any other Brands that I should consider looking at? Any suggestions are appreciated since handguns are still new to me. Thanks and Happy Bird Day. :smt1099


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

Have you checked out the Beretta PX4 storm series? 

- the slide comes off very easy. 2 tabs to pull down and if you have the slide forward the hammer will push the slide a tish so that you don't have to really work the slide
- the barrel rotates on recoil instead of tipping making the 9mm very soft shooting
- the safety/decocker is ambi and sticks out a bit so when working the slide there is a lot to grab on to and you don't have to tighten your hands so much or that well
- the slide release is a decent sized paddle to find
- it comes with 3 different backstraps to fit the gun to you: these are hard to change and depending on your hands that day you may need help
- there is good checkering on the front and back straps of the pistol helping it stay in your hands very well

I'm talking about the full sized 9mm I think the compact is close to the say however sub-compact is a tilting barrel so you lose that point if you go to the really small one


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> That was a very well written response SouthernBoy. Thank you. I believe my next handgun is going to be a .38 Revolver. Besides Smith and Wesson can you recommed any other Brands that I should consider looking at? Any suggestions are appreciated since handguns are still new to me. Thanks and Happy Bird Day. :smt1099


If you're talking revolver, I think your best bet is a Ruger, as I wrote, or a Smith and Wesson. My preference is a Ruger but an S&W is one fine revolver. And I would get a .357 Magnum since it affords you the opportunity to load either .357 or .38 Special in it. A bit more flexibility is a good thing.

If you're looking at pistols (semi-autos), the choice is truly mind boggling. I suggest visiting a major gun show where you can handle a variety of pistols to see which ones feel the best in your hand. I mentioned the M&P and the Beretta. But there are Glocks, Springfield XD's, Sig Sauers, H&K's, and just a mess of them from which to choose. In your case, do keep in mind how well and easily you can work the slide and also give good consideration to field stripping the gun. If this gun is to be primarily a range gun, then the Beretta 92FS may be one of the best to consider. Light recoil, easy to take down, and a fun gun to shoot... quite accurate. Damned good looking gun to boot.

If it's going to serve dual purpose, I would consider the M&P 9 Pro Series. Again, very accurate, a superb feel in the hand, and simple to disassemble. So many good choices, so little time and money.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Consider also some recoil helpfully grips. Some like ones that cover the blackstrap. Others don't. I do, usually. 
The Ruger all steel revolvers (GP100 and SP101) are heavy also, which will help with recoil.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

SouthernBoy said:


> If you're talking revolver, I think your best bet is a Ruger, as I wrote, or a Smith and Wesson. My preference is a Ruger but an S&W is one fine revolver. And I would get a .357 Magnum since it affords you the opportunity to load either .357 or .38 Special in it. A bit more flexibility is a good thing. .......


Now THAT really is good advice! I was, also, going to suggest looking at heavier (and easier-to-control) Ruger SP101 revolvers in - not 38 Special, but - 357 Magnum caliber.

http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html

My very gentle wife, who is not a particularly large or strong person, carries a Ruger SP101 with a 3 inch barrel, exposed hammer spur, and soft rubber Hogue, 'Monogrip'. (4 inches would have been better; but at the time we purchased it, the 4 inch model wasn't available.)

She's trained, extensively, with me; and, as a result, she handles 357 Magnum very well. (Because I never taught her to fear recoil; instead I taught her that RECOIL IS A TOOL that a good shooter needs to learn how to use in order to shoot the gun straight!)

For range practice I give her 38 Special ammunition; then, as the practice session progresses, I slowly switch her over to, 'full house' 357 Magnum. Quite honestly, I've never heard her complain about anything other than the increased noise; and (happily) she continues to stay on target.

The topic of this thread is, something of, a concern for me, too: I'm getting older; and every year I seem to have a little more tendonitis in my well overused hands than the year before. I suppose this is the reason, 'Why' I've sold off many of my semiautomatic pistols and kept most of the revolvers.

It's true that some semi-autos have lower bore axes; but a marginally lower bore axis doesn't, necessarily, translate into reduced recoil. I've got Mag-Na-Ported revolvers that are an absolute dream to shoot; better, in fact, than similarly ported semiautomatics I, also, own, (or have owned).

As one of the older shooters on this board I'd suggest learning how to USE RECOIL as a tool in order to shoot straight, rather than attempting TO FIGHT, or avoid it. Above 22 LR and, maybe, 32 ACP recoil is a reality of pistol shooting. I know from long experience shooting firearms that the sooner a shooter learns how to use (or manage) recoil then: (1) the straighter he's going to shoot; and (2) the easier it's going to be for him to handle a pistol.

I've always tried to teach students to, 'rock 'n roll' with the recoil, to get their repetitive firing INTO A PATTERN OF MOVEMENT that their proprioceptive reflexes are able to recognize; and, then, use whatever recoil motion the pistol generates in order to hit the target. (Not everyone is able to grasp this concept; but, in my experience as a firearms instructor, those students who do are well on their way to becoming, 'scary good'.)

A two-hand hold, a soft rubber, Hogue, 'Monogrip'; and a (if you'll permit me to say so) a better understanding of the dynamics of pistol recoil should go a long way to helping you to successfully manage a handgun. Perhaps I should mention what my own favorite EDC revolver setup is. I prefer to use a Smith & Wesson, Model 686 with a 1/2 inch underlugged barrel, and a set of Safariland, 'Comp II' speedloaders. I carry the gun and speedloaders in a (really beautiful) Matt Del Fatti rig. I prefer this revolver because it's (1) nice 'n heavy, (2) nice 'n large, and (3) has an oversized Hogue, 'Monogrip' that fits my older hands very well.

Here's a picture; I usually carry it with 12 extra rounds in two Del Fatti speedloader pouches WHICH SHOULD ALWAYS BE CARRIED, A LA CIRILLO, ON THE STRONG SIDE OF YOUR GUN BELT AND IMMEDIATELY IN FRONT OF YOUR HOLSTER. (According to Jim Cirillo, who would have known the right way to do it, a pistolero should never attempt to load a combat revolver with his support hand.)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/513/iuk3.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/716/bd7j.jpg

Here's my wife's Ruger SP101:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/51/6tft.jpg

(She uses Bianchi, 'Speed Strips' instead of the Safariland, 'Comp II' speedloaders.)

NOTE: Sometimes a student will complain to me about the weight or size of his EDC pistol. I always make the same reply: '_The weight and size of a pistol are only problems when you're NOT using it to fight for your life!' 'Whenever you actually need a pistol there is no such thing as, either, too heavy, or too large._' '_When you're in trouble the bigger and heavier the pistol, the better!_'


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Glock Doctor said:


> Now THAT really is good advice! I was, also, going to suggest looking at heavier (and easier-to-control) Ruger SP101 revolvers in - not 38 Special, but - 357 Magnum caliber.
> 
> Ruger SP101® Double-Action Revolver
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I have a Ruger Security Six stainless 4" barrel that I bought in 1976. I has "Made in the 200th year of American Liberty" embossed on the left side of the frame which I suspect makes it a collectors' item. I looked carefully for this gun, trying out numerous versions. When I bought it, the barrel/cylinder gap measured 15/10,000ths of an inch. It was so close that after two or three cylinders of .357, the metal swelled enough to keep the cylinder from turning. I had to stone the forcing cone just a skosh to keep this from happening. It is one beautiful gun. I have Pachmayr grips on it and that is pretty much it. Shoots great and is great.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

I have a Redhawk .44 Magnum 7 1/2" barrel and when compared to my Model 29 4" and 629 Talo 3" it is quite a bit beefier than the Smith's. I believe that Ruger's .357's are also, when compared to the S&W line of .357's the extra weight will help dampen recoil.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Southern Boy:
"When I bought it, the barrel/cylinder gap measured 15/10,000ths of an inch. It was so close that after two or three cylinders of .357, the metal swelled enough to keep the cylinder from turning."

I had the exact same problem with the Redhawk, I bought it in 1980 right after they first came out, the gun was only a couple of weeks old, at that time I was new to handguns and had no idea what was causing the problem, it worked fine until the 18th round or so and then would bind up. I brought it back to the gun store, and they we're just as puzzled as I was. They sent it back to Ruger who took care of the problem and the gun was returned within 2 weeks and I've never had that problem since. The mystery is finely cleared up after all these years!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I bought my first Redhawk in, I believe 1983 or 84 (just not sure which year it was). I traded a Ruger Super Blackhawk I had bought in 1973. That first Redhawk had the 7 1/2" barrel. Not too long after buying it, I became disillusioned with it. I didn't shoot it well and was just not satisfied. Then Ruger announced that they were going to introduce a 5 1/2" version of the Redhawk. It dawned on me that the balance of my 7 1/2" version was not suited for me so I traded it for a 5 1/2" Redhawk and have been pleased ever since doing this. The gun is insanely accurate (2 1/2" groups at 50 yards from a rest), great to shoot, and I have modified it to fit my needs. I installed Ruger hunting sights (small bold bead on a thin post for the front (think .22 rifle) and a wide 'V' in the rear. I also installed Omark springs and Packmayr grips.

The barrel/cylinder gap on my Redhawk measures 3/1000ths of an inch which is fine as far as I'm concerned. One solid and hard hitting gun, I loaded 225 grain Speer 3/4 jacketed hollow points over 23 grains of 2400 for a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps. Still have a few loads left in a box in one of my safes.

I was lucky to have kept my old feeler gauge set from the 60's that I used to use to set distributor point gaps and adjust valves on cars. It goes down to 15/10,000ths of an inch which is pretty darned thin.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The more I think about the OP's original post and his very valid concerns, the Beretta 92FS looms larger in my mind as a very good choice for him if he should decide to go the route of a semi-auto pistol. I don't think he'll have any problems with the slide on this gun and its weight and balance should be excellent for him. Of course, only he would be able to confirm this.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Southern Boy:
My first .44 Magnum was an S&W Model 29 with an 8 3/8ths barrel, I bought that and the Redhawk in 1980, there was something that was impressive about those long barrels, but it was unwieldy and cumbersome, I had a tendency to shoot low with it, probably because of the extra weight of the barrel. After putting about 10,000 full power loads out of the "29" the forcing cone was starting to erode, so I switched it out for a 4" barrel and it made a huge difference in both portability and shootability. I don't think I'll change the barrel of the Redhawk, I've got to at least have one .44 Magnum with a long barrel. Happy Thanksgiving!


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## steepcliff (Nov 27, 2013)

If weight is the biggest problem......go with the less weight ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,both are very accurate.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

ponzer04 said:


> Have you checked out the Beretta PX4 storm series?
> 
> - the slide comes off very easy. 2 tabs to pull down and if you have the slide forward the hammer will push the slide a tish so that you don't have to really work the slide
> - the barrel rotates on recoil instead of tipping making the 9mm very soft shooting
> ...


Thanks ponzer04. I will definitely take a look at this Beretta


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks Glock Doctor for the detailed reply. You made some outstanidng points.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Cait43 said:


> You might want to look in a Rhino revolver.... the barrel is on the bottom to lessen the recoil and muzzle flip... Some say it really lessens the recoil in that the recoil with shooting .357 is like shooting .38 and shooting .38 is almost like .22.....
> 
> Also the longer the barrel and heavier the weapon lessens recoil and muzzle flip........
> Chiappa Firearms
> ...


I just watched the video and the Chippa Rhino is certainly an interesting functioning revolver. I do not like the looks of it but in my case function is more important than form. How is the reliability with this firearm?


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

HandgunsAreGreat
Re Rhino:
I don't know, I've seen them at a gun show and there was an article in the NRA,s publication "The American Rifleman" showing a schematic of one, the inner workings are very complicated in order to get the gun to fire from the bottom of the cylinder and to also allow the hammer to be manually cocked. Until it's a proven design with a good track record, I think I would avoid it. It doesn't seem like people are rushing out to buy them, maybe because it is more of a curiosity, and If you don't like it you might be stuck with it because of it's limited market. Who knows? This is just my guess.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Happy Bird Day Eveyone: Two more questions for anyone would be appreciated. 1) What happened to the blue steel and black .38 revolvers? I did not see any in the S&W catalog. Have they stopped making them for S&W and is there another quality brand of revolvers that I should look at?

2) For my Ruger LCR .22LR the manual does not specify type of ammo. I found some CCI Stingers .22LR but I did not know if the following restirction were acceptable for my Ruger? The ammo is now gone but it stated something a bout meeting ANSI standards. I assume that the Ruger meets these standards?

Thanks and good turkey eating.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

If your owner's manual does not specifically mention which ammunition your gun should use, or not use, I should think that anything in the chambered caliber would be fine. I have a .22 rifle that does specify which ammunition the gun will handle. Anything outside of that list would be a no-no.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Sgt45 said:


> Depending of the frame size of the S&W. The J frame pocket revolver, 5 shot cylinder 2" or 3" barrel can sting on recoil if you are sensitive to it. The K frame 6 shot will be kinder. A good Model 10 heavy barrel .38 special should be good. You may also want to look at the .32 Magnum (if you can find one and the ammo to shoot)


Right!?! Or maybe something in a .327 Federal Magnum...again, good luck with the ammo situation.:smt076


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> Happy Bird Day Eveyone: Two more questions for anyone would be appreciated.
> 
> 1) What happened to the blue steel and black .38 revolvers? I did not see any in the S&W catalog. Have they stopped making them for S&W and is there another quality brand of revolvers that I should look at?
> 
> ...


(1) High carbon, military grade (very hard) steel is what used to be blued at the S&W factory. The process was (is) very expensive; and the high carbon steel wore out Smith's tool heads a lot faster than the softer stainless steels that,

EVERYBODY IN THE REVOLVER MANUFACTURING BUSINESS IS USING TODAY.

Bluing, also, costs additional money; and revolver manufacturers like Smith & Wesson, and Sturm-Ruger have been quick to move away from the process.

(2) ALL of my Smith & Wesson 22 LR pistols, and the Ruger, 'Mark III' 22LR pistols that I've, also, shot handle CCI, 22LR, 'Stingers' just fine! (In fact I've got over a 1,000 rounds of CCI Stingers, and CCI, 'Mini-Mag' 22LR cartridges sitting, right here, on my desk as I input this text. Don't overthink things. You're, 'golden'; so stop worrying about non-sequiturs.

Generally speaking guns from Sturm-Ruger are just a little bit tougher than Smith's comparable models. Because Ruger uses, 'investment cast' frames and barrels their revolvers require a slightly higher mechanical safety factor; or, at least, that's the way things used to be. I don't really know; but S&W might, also, be using investment castings in their revolvers now, too.

For whatever it's worth: I doubt you'd be happy with a 327 Magnum; a 357 Magnum would be a much more versatile, easy-to-find (and affordable) revolver for your use. Remember: You can use low power 38 Special cartridges in any 357 Magnum revolver; however, in a 327 Magnum your choices are going to be limited to (still relatively, 'hot') 327 Magnum, or a couple of odd ball and often hard-to-find other cartridges. (32 H&R, or 32 S&W Long and Short ammunition) NOT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO FIND IN YOUR TYPICAL WAL-MART SPORTING GOODS DEPARTMENT; so, 'Why' put yourself in that position?

The reason, 'Why' I've got over a thousand rounds of 22LR ammo in inventory is because I shoot 22LR all of the time; and FOR MORE THAN A YEAR I wasn't able to find any 22LR ammo, at all! Just yesterday I was at our local Wal-Mart, 'Super Store'. The ammo shelves were almost completely bare! Since the Sandy Hook massacre all of us, 'good guys' really have to scramble in order to feed our guns! Which makes for the second time in my life that I've had to endure a severe shortage of small arms ammunition. The first time was immediately before and during the next four months after Obama was elected; and, now, we're still dealing with some sort of, 'national punishment' for what happened in New Town.

(No, please don't tell me about all those huge law enforcement and military ammunition contracts. I thoroughly researched these ammunition shortages; and, trust me, I earned my living as a highly regarded professional market analyst for almost two decades. There is no valid business or supply reason - other than the New Town massacre - for these shortages to have occurred. It's all about, 'big business' (the conglomerate investment holding companies) flexing their muscles, playing with the supply, and dealing punitively with the gun owning/using American public.)

Stay away from, 'oddball' calibers. If and when you get into shooting and range practice you're going to have a hard enough time trying to feed your gun(s). In fact, in my opinion, now would be a good time for you to think about getting into archery, instead of guns. If I didn't have tendonitis in my hands as bad as I do that's what I would do.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Glock Doctor said:


> (1) High carbon, military grade (very hard) steel is what used to be blued at the S&W factory. The process was (is) very expensive; and the high carbon steel wore out Smith's tool heads a lot faster than the softer stainless steels that,
> 
> EVERYBODY IN THE REVOLVER MANUFACTURING BUSINESS IS USING TODAY.
> 
> ...


Great reply. After more research I agree about the .32. I have not found much ammo out there.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

HandgunsAreGreat:
With the exception of a very few I don't think any of the new firearms either semi auto or revolver are blued any more. The new finishes in most but not all are more durable than blueing which is actually a type of stained rust. I think Kimber offers one of their 1911's blued.

I'm pretty sure that you can use any .22LR ammo in your LCR, but not magnums.


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## Oppy (Nov 29, 2013)

I'll chime in with an option you are likely very familiar with... Makarov. Operation and take down are as simple as can be, accurate and no issues ever. It is a bit on the heavy side compared to the newer polymer choices of similar size, but recoil is quite manageable and it is also easily concealable if you choose to carry. I own and carry one. Good++ condition can be had for $300-ish.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Oppy said:


> I'll chime in with an option you are likely very familiar with... Makarov. Operation and take down are as simple as can be, accurate and no issues ever. It is a bit on the heavy side compared to the newer polymer choices of similar size, but recoil is quite manageable and it is also easily concealable if you choose to carry. I own and carry one. Good++ condition can be had for $300-ish.


Thans for the reply Oppy, I appreciate your suggestion. I have heard a little about these pistols, Russian I believe, one thing is that some are reliable and some are not. Right now I am still considering Revolvers for ease of simplicity and relaibility.

Question: Is the Makarov available used from some gun shops? I assume that there is not a current manufacturer or is there? Thanks.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

HandgunsAreGreat:
Regarding the Rhino I found this information on (gunsumerreports.com/Chiappa_Rhino_60DS/Chiappa_Rhino_60DS_059.JPG) looks like a lot of parts and a complex firing mechanism.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Oppy said:


> I'll chime in with an option you are likely very familiar with... Makarov. Operation and take down are as simple as can be, accurate and no issues ever. It is a bit on the heavy side compared to the newer polymer choices of similar size, but recoil is quite manageable and it is also easily concealable if you choose to carry. I own and carry one. Good++ condition can be had for $300-ish.


Plus one for the MAK, but have not seen any around in a while, nor the 9 x 18mm ammo.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

desertman said:


> HandgunsAreGreat:
> Regarding the Rhino I found this information on (gunsumerreports.com/Chiappa_Rhino_60DS/Chiappa_Rhino_60DS_059.JPG) looks like a lot of parts and a complex firing mechanism.


Thanks desertman. Yes the Rhino certainly does look complicated. Oh well I thought i found a way around the recoil issue. Now I am back considering the Ruger GP101 .327 Federal Magnum or a K Fram S&W .38, 4 inch barrell.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

HandgunsAreGreat:
You're welcome. The Rhino is not cheap, I think around $700. You can, for a lot less buy the Ruger or the S&W at least they are a tried and true design, and I don't think that you'll find the recoil objectionable with either one. Just make sure that the revolver is all steel, and shoot standard .38 loads out of it and you should be okay. I've never fired a .327 Magnum, and have no idea what that is like compared to standard .38's out of an all steel gun. Sorry, can't help you out on that one. Good luck whatever you decide!


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

I just came back from my local range in No. VA, BRA, and had a great time. I tried my Ruger LCR .22 LR and rented a revolver to try .38. I shot 38 Special, 130 Grain FMJ, Federal Ammunition, Range Target Practice. Specifications on box state 790 fps at 25 yards with Energy of 180 (ft-lbs). I used a large 4 inch S&W .357 Magnums with a 4 inch barrel. It was a nice steel gun. The revolver felt heavy but that did not bother me at all. Unfortunately the recoil was too much for me. I shot about 30 rounds and then had to stop. I shot 120 rounds out of my Ruger LCR .22 LR and it seemed easy.

One issue that bothered me was I was not very accurate with the .38. I will not be getting this firearm. I asked the store to check on the Ruger GP101 and they said it was discontinued. It is still listed in Ruger's catalog but that does not mean anything. I also shoot with Nikon DSLR equipment and once a camera or lens is discontinued, it can take several years to get out of the catalog/website. I also checked on Ruger's website and the retailer to which they referred lists them as not available. 

I am still a little unsure about buying a revolver with somewhat outdated ammo, i.e., .32. For my needs, a large steel revolver shooting .32 would deal with my recoil issue and provide me with better stopping power. It seems to be a good solution but I still need to check the availability of .32 ammo.

The salesperson suggested maybe a .380 in a larger handgun, 25 to 35 oz. Not very easy to conceal but better stopping power and reduced recoil. I assume that I would have to move over to Semi-Auto and then deal with a more complicated firearm.

Any suggestions on the .380 and recoil and with that caliber what load should I look at? Thanks everyone.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Most experienced instructors in the world of self defensive handguns will tell you that the .380ACP is at the bottom rung of the SD caliber ladder. While there are some decent loads in this caliber you should be aware of its limitations. I don't imagine any perp is going to tell you to go ahead and shoot him with your .380 so yes it is better than nothing at all. But in general, it is considered a backup caliber rather than a primary one.

Now there are very good reasons to carry a gun that chambers the .380ACP and you have already outlined good ones in your particular case. So I am certainly not here to tell you that you'd be making a terrible mistake by going this route. After all, if that is what you find you must have and can use it well then you are ahead of the game.

The .380ACP has mild recoil (obviously depends upon the gun), is easy to shoot, and comes in some nice, small packages. The Bersa Thunder 380 gets a lot of attention and I know at least one lady who carries one on a regular basis.... it is her primary carry gun. Sig Sauer has their P238 and P232 to consider. And there's the Walther PPK/S-1. Of course there are others so you can do some searching to see what appeals to you.

If cost is not a major concern, take a look at the Kahr steel guns. I'm thinking about 9mm here and specifically their K9 or T9 series. The T9 is their full size (it is not large) and handles the 9mm very nicely.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Most experienced instructors in the world of self defensive handguns will tell you that the .380ACP is at the bottom rung of the SD caliber ladder. While there are some decent loads in this caliber you should be aware of its limitations. I don't imagine any perp is going to tell you to go ahead and shoot him with your .380 so yes it is better than nothing at all. But in general, it is considered a backup caliber rather than a primary one.
> 
> Now there are very good reasons to carry a gun that chambers the .380ACP and you have already outlined good ones in your particular case. So I am certainly not here to tell you that you'd be making a terrible mistake by going this route. After all, if that is what you find you must have and can use it well then you are ahead of the game.
> 
> ...


Nice post and good info Southern Boy. I did not realize the status of the .380. Interestingly I just finished watching the Sci-Fi movie remake of "Total Recall" with Collin Ferrell, Kate Beckinsale, and Jessica Beil. When Kate Beckinsale's character tries to kill Collin Ferrell's character she is using silver Chiappa Rhino with some added aqua light on the bottom. Interestingly this gun is supposed to be a weapon from the future. In the movie it looked good. I did not find any "bad" info on the gun on the web besides it looks and price. I tend to doubt it would have much resale value in the future considering its unusual design and looks. The long-term reliability of course is yet to be determined.


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## Oppy (Nov 29, 2013)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> Thans for the reply Oppy, I appreciate your suggestion. I have heard a little about these pistols, Russian I believe, one thing is that some are reliable and some are not. Right now I am still considering Revolvers for ease of simplicity and relaibility.
> 
> Question: Is the Makarov available used from some gun shops? I assume that there is not a current manufacturer or is there? Thanks.


Occasionally you'll find one in a store that sells used guns (Pawn shops etc). I found mine on-line locally, in like new condition. For fit and finish my Bulgarian is better than my Russian makarov, though I am not certain if that applies in general or just in my case. For me, the 9x18 rounds are almost exclusively an on-line purchase but not hard to find compared to the 9x19 which seem to be hoarded the last several years.

Let us know what you decide.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

desertman said:


> HandgunsAreGreat:
> Regarding the Rhino I found this information on (gunsumerreports.com/Chiappa_Rhino_60DS/Chiappa_Rhino_60DS_059.JPG) looks like a lot of parts and a complex firing mechanism.


This photo is misleading.... It is not as complex as it seems.... In fact the S&W 642 revolver has 97 component parts compared to the Rhino with 75 parts.....

Go to the following link and click on "_Rhino Exploded View and Parts list APR2013.pdf_" to see the component parts for the Rhino.......
Chiappa Firearms

Rhino's are great firearms that are getting a bad rap due to its a newer weapon, the barrel on the bottom and that some feels it too ugly.......


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

:smt017 Be careful! 

Some 32's and 380's fire from a locked breech; and others fire by a simple blowback action. I own an old German-made Walther, 380, PPK/S. It has a blowback action; and IT KICKS LIKE A MULE! I like the size; I like the pistol; and I realize that it's a collector's piece; but, at the same time, I find my Walther PPK/S to be a very uncomfortable gun to shoot. 

Makarov and Bersa pistols are, also, blowback operated, and kick accordingly. The SIG P238, however, fires from a locked breech - A mechanical fact that is reflected in its comparatively mild recoil. (Which, still, might be an issue for someone with arthritis who is particularly recoil sensitive.) 

Not to be rude; but if someone can't handle a weak 38 Special target round, with a muzzle velocity of only 790 fps and 180 ft/lbs. of energy, then the personal recoil sensitivity issue is a serious one! (It would have been nice to know what model S&W revolver was used; but, still, I now doubt that it matters.) 

Even at my own, presently, advanced age I am still a very good shot with a pistol; and, when I was a young man, I was even better. Naturally, this gave me a lot of self-confidence (probably too much) when I had a gun in my hand; and, quite truthfully, I have been an excellent one-handed, 'point shooter' all of my life. Why am I telling you this? Because, for more than 2 decades, I used a long barreled 22 LR pistol (an S&W Model 41 with a 7 inch barrel) for home self-defense. 

True, during all this time, I only actually needed to use this pistol exactly once; and when I did need it the pistol was upstairs while I was downstairs standing, empty handed, in the middle of the living room! I used to keep this 22 LR pistol with two extra magazines next to it for a combined total of 30 rounds of round-nosed (solid) 40 grain bullets; and, because of my innate shooting ability, I never felt, 'undergunned'. 

What standard did I hold myself to; and what standard would I require anyone else I might train to rise up to? I required myself to be able to rapidly fire all 10 magazine rounds into a 6 inch circle out to 12 yards (which is well within typical room fighting distance). If a shooter can do this then he's going to be able to make the lowly 22LR work for him! What does NOT work is using a 22LR pistol to strike a target in a widely dispersed (torso) pattern. If the hits are widely dispersed about a target's torso then the impact force is, also, going to be equally dispersed and, consequently, have only minimal impact value. 

The other thing that does NOT work with a 22LR pistol is using a pistol that has only 5 or 6 shots in it before it is necessary to stop and reload. In fact I'm of the opinion that for anyone - except the most skilled of shooters - to attempt to use a double-action 22LR pistol in self-defense is largely self-defeating! (You're getting this from someone who is familiar with the development work the Israeli Mossad did while they were developing the 22 LR cartridge for covert use.) 

The extreme recoil sensitivity problem (fortunately) doesn't come up very often; but when it does I've always recommended using a short-barreled carbine instead of a handgun. The technique is to tuck the carbine's stock underneath an arm, and fire (at relatively close range) by pointing the barrel at the center of the target. Believe me now that I'm getting older, myself, I'm able to appreciate that the day might very well come when none of the beautiful handguns in my collection are going to be of any good use to me. (Kind 'a makes me feel like crying; but, if a person lives long enough that day is bound to arrive!) 

The only other thing that stands out to me in the above post is the, somewhat curious, fact that the shooter was able to fire as many as 30 rounds before he, 'had to stop'. This raises other questions: What was the rate-of-fire? (A higher rate is going to be more difficult to control than a slower rate.) What grips were on the gun? (A decent grip CAN MAKE a huge difference in how recoil is perceived.) What is the shooter's actual skill level? (Someone who knows how to shoot double-action and who USES RECOIL AS A TOOL instead of fighting it is going to be much, 'easier on his body' and more comfortable than a shooter who, 'just pulls the trigger' and hopes for the best. 

Before I'd write-off any or, in this case, most handguns I'd want to do a lot more than simply try different model pistols in order to see how they, 'feel'. Me? I'd want to connect with a genuinely knowledgeable (probably older) firearms instructor, and have him analyze my, 'natural technique' and make suggestions for my own good use. Pulling a trigger, and firing a handgun in comparison to actually KNOWING HOW to pull a trigger, and actually, 'rock 'n rolling with recoil' are very different realities. 

(It's, something like, when a person falls down all tensed-up and stiff, compared to someone else who falls down, 'drunk as a skunk' and all loosened up! The person who's all tensed-up is going to really feel the fall; but the person who's drunk and, 'loose as a goose' will hardly know that he just fell down!) 

I don't think that I've got too much more to offer on this subject; so I'm going to stay with the suggestions to use a 22LR caliber, semiautomatic pistol with several backup magazines and solid RN bullets; or else, and at least for home defense, start thinking about using a carbine-type arm. 

Good luck to you!


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

Glock Doctor said:


> :smt017 Be careful!
> 
> Some 32's and 380's fire from a locked breech; and others fire by a simple blowback action. I own an old German-made Walther, 380, PPK/S. It has a blowback action; and IT KICKS LIKE A MULE! I like the size; I like the pistol; and I realize that it's a collector's piece; but, at the same time, I find my Walther PPK/S to be a very uncomfortable gun to shoot.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much GlockDoctor. I deeply appreciate the long and detailed response. It was very nice of you to take the time to send it. You made some outstanding points that I had not previously considered such as grouping multiple .22LR rounds and becoming more proficient with the 22. For home I have a .410 shotgun and I ordered another .410 that is shorter 34". I seem to be able to handle them since they are much larger and the recoil is absorbed.

I shot 30 rounds with the .38 over 30 minutes switching back and forth with my .22LR. While I hit the target most of the time, my shots were not grouped and I know that I would need a lot of practice with the revolver to become proficient which is something that would not be good for my wrists.

I do not know the model of S&W .357 but it was 4" barrel, stainless steel and felt liked it weighed 30 or 40 oz. It was a nice looking gun.

Now I am thinking of obtaining a second .22LR Ruger LCR with a Laser Sight or a Chiappa Rhino. I am unsure about the Rhino because of the cost and complicated trigger mechanism. I will research the subject more.

The .22LR revolver is for concealed carry, self-defense.

Thanks for all the comments and have a nice day.


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

Cait43 said:


> You might want to look in a Rhino revolver....


Yes, the Rhino would be a wonderful choice--for recoil--but the trigger is difficult, especially for someone with arthritis.
And I have heard of quality-control issues from Chiappa, as well.

For simplicity, I think Glock would be best, in 9mm. Say, a Glock 19. Compact, but not small, it's easy to handle. Generation 4 would be excellent: with the double recoil spring and the very sure grip. These features help to reduce the already manageable recoil of a 9mm. And then there is the small, consistent trigger. Maybe a very good choice, in this case.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

northstar19 said:


> Yes, the Rhino would be a wonderful choice--for recoil--but the trigger is difficult, especially for someone with arthritis.
> And I have heard of quality-control issues from Chiappa, as well.
> 
> For simplicity, I think Glock would be best, in 9mm. Say, a Glock 19. Compact, but not small, it's easy to handle. Generation 4 would be excellent: with the double recoil spring and the very sure grip. These features help to reduce the already manageable recoil of a 9mm. And then there is the small, consistent trigger. Maybe a very good choice, in this case.


Thank you for the reply northstar19, I appreciate it. I conducted some searches on the Rhino on the web and found people talking about the trigger issue. Several folks had to send the gun back since the pull was very difficult; maybe over 14lbs. trigger pull. Considering the cost and complexity of the trigger mechanism I am considering a handgun that is more conventional and widely sold.

I tried to buy the Ruger GP100 .327 and planned to load it with .32 long rounds but the gun is no longer available. I can try looking on used sites.

I do have one question regarding you suggestion with the Glock. If the recoil from a .38 special 130 grain round out of S&W 4" .357 magnum revolvers was too much recoil, would the 9mm Glock also have too much recoil?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

HandgunsAreGreat said:


> Thank you for the reply northstar19, I appreciate it. I conducted some searches on the Rhino on the web and found people talking about the trigger issue. Several folks had to send the gun back since the pull was very difficult; maybe over 14lbs. trigger pull. Considering the cost and complexity of the trigger mechanism I am considering a handgun that is more conventional and widely sold.
> 
> I tried to buy the Ruger GP100 .327 and planned to load it with .32 long rounds but the gun is no longer available. I can try looking on used sites.
> 
> *I do have one question regarding you suggestion with the Glock. If the recoil from a .38 special 130 grain round out of S&W 4" .357 magnum revolvers was too much recoil, would the 9mm Glock also have too much recoil?*


I can jump in on this. The felt recoil of the Glock 19 with decent 9mm loads is going to be more than that of the S&W shooting .38 Special loads. It isn't bad at all but since you are sensitive to recoil, it could be a problem. I have a new gen4 Glock 17 (their standard full size 9mm) and it has more felt recoil than my S&W M&P 9 Pro Series. Now the M&P might be something to consider. Mine has the 4.25" barrel and is quite manageable. Noticeably less recoil than a Glock 19 or 17. Very comfortable gun to shoot.

I had mentioned several .380's the other day, one of which was the Bersa Thunder. About 15 years ago, I owned a Bersa DA in .380ACP, I suspect it was the forerunner of the Thunder since it looked so much like one of those, and it was a very nice gun. Recoil was mild and the gun carried very nicely. This just might be the one for you. Try to find one and see how it feels and if possible one where there is an indoor range where you can shoot it.


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## HandgunsAreGreat (Nov 26, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> I can jump in on this. The felt recoil of the Glock 19 with decent 9mm loads is going to be more than that of the S&W shooting .38 Special loads. It isn't bad at all but since you are sensitive to recoil, it could be a problem. I have a new gen4 Glock 17 (their standard full size 9mm) and it has more felt recoil than my S&W M&P 9 Pro Series. Now the M&P might be something to consider. Mine has the 4.25" barrel and is quite manageable. Noticeably less recoil than a Glock 19 or 17. Very comfortable gun to shoot.
> 
> I had mentioned several .380's the other day, one of which was the Bersa Thunder. About 15 years ago, I owned a Bersa DA in .380ACP, I suspect it was the forerunner of the Thunder since it looked so much like one of those, and it was a very nice gun. Recoil was mild and the gun carried very nicely. This just might be the one for you. Try to find one and see how it feels and if possible one where there is an indoor range where you can shoot it.


Thanks for the tip SouthernBoy. I can research the Bersa Thunder and see if my local range has them to rent.


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