# An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power



## VAMarine

This is an interesting article written by one of the instructors @ the Tactical Defense Institute of Ohio

*An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power: Buckeye Firearms Assoc*.

It's not the end-all be-all of caliber debate / discussion but it definitely worth taking a look at.

About the author:



> Greg Ellifritz is a 16-year veteran police officer, spending the last 11 years as the fulltime tactical training officer for his central Ohio agency. In that position, he is responsible for developing and instructing all of the in-service training for a 57-officer police department. Prior to his training position, he served as patrol officer, bike patrol officer, precision marksman, and field training officer for his agency.
> 
> He has been an active instructor for the Tactical Defense Institute since 2001 and a lead instructor for TDI's ground fighting, knife fighting, impact weapons, active shooter, and extreme close quarters shooting classes.
> 
> Greg holds instructor, master instructor, or armorer certifications in more than 75 different weapons systems, defensive tactics programs, and law enforcement specialty areas. In addition to these instructor certifications, Greg has trained with most of the leading firearms and edged weapons instructors in the country.
> 
> Greg has been an adjunct instructor for the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy, teaching firearms, defensive tactics, bike patrol, knife defense and physical fitness topics. He has taught firearms and self defense classes at the national and international level through the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, The American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers and Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police. He has a Master's degree in Public Policy and Management and has written for several publications including: 'The Firearms Instructor", "Ohio Police Chief", "Combat Handguns", "Concealed Carry Magazine" and "The Journal of the American Women's Self Defense Association".


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## chessail77

Excellent article ...thanks for posting it...Semper Fi.....JJ


GO HOKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FNISHR

That was very interesting, indeed. Thanks for putting it up here.


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## KenMac

Interesting read!! Thanks


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## denner

Great article VA, here's another one worth a read seemingly they pretty much come to the same conclusion.

What You Need to Know About Stopping Power

About the author: Lt. Dave Spaulding (Ret.)
Dave Spaulding is a retired law enforcement officer with 28 years of experience. Having retired as a Lieutenant from the Montgomery County (Ohio) Sheriff's Office, he worked in all facets of law enforcement including Communications, Corrections, Court Security, Patrol, Evidence Collection, Investigations, Undercover Operations and Training. He spent 12 years on the SWAT team, 8 of which as Training Officer. He supervised his agency's training program for five years and spent five years as the commander of a federally funded, multi-agency Narcotics Task Force that worked investigations from Miami to Seattle. 
Dave has a Bachelor's Degree in Social Psychology from the University of Dayton with a minor in Physical Education. He is a graduate of most of the major firearms training schools including Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, the Smith & Wesson Academy, the SIG Arms Academy, the Heckler & Koch International Training Division, Defense Training International, CQB Services, Ltd., the Tactical Defense Institute and the Mid South Institute for Self Defense Shooting. He has been a multiple attendee and presenter at the international training conferences for ASLET and IALEFI and was the host for the 2004 international training conference for IALEFI. He has served as an adjunct instructor for H & K, the Tactical Defense Institute and is a past president of the Ohio Tactical Officer's Association.


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## JerryMac

Very Good articles, I am an avid believer in shot placement, and multiple shots, shoot what ya bring is my opinion....


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## NMpops

A 10 year study to tell us what we already knew. If hit in the right spot all the major rounds (.38, .357. 9mm, .40, .45) are all about the same!


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## usmcj

Caliber doesn't count until the shooter has achieved adequate shot placement. It has, and always will be that way. The old saying that "a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45", has been around much longer than most of the highly learned authors that bless us with their thoughts on long-established experience.


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## VAMarine

NMpops said:


> A 10 year study to tell us what we already knew. If hit in the right spot all the major rounds (.38, .357. 9mm, .40, .45) are all about the same!


While that may be the case for some, there are plenty that don't know and even for those of us that do know, it's always nice to have supporting data. :smt1099


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## johnme

I will Save this info for my ccw classes, that ? always comes out.
I stopped at a lgs just kill time, bad work :] a lady and the sales person slid over to me looking threw the glass , holding her new ccw card in her hand.
She seemed pissed off at the sales man for showing the 9mm pistols to her. I heard her say 2' from me. { I want a one stop shot gun } ! I had to step
in and told her I am A NRA instructor and can I help ? sales man smiled at me, like thanks ! Told her about the new sd ammo and everyone needs a22lr
pistol to cross training, with the price of ammo ! Someone missed a big part of teaching her the basics !


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## Vodoun da Vinci

Thanks for sharing this information. I found this information some time ago on my own trying to defend my position that shot placement beats all other criteria including caliber. Bigger is better *but* accurate bullet placement, no matter what caliber you fancy, is the show stopper we all seek in a self defense situation.

My mentors on the "stopping power" issue as far as handguns are concerned were two ER doctors who also happen to be avid handgunners. These guys have seen and treated more gunshots between the two of them than many of us can fathom.

And their conclusions echo the above data almost perfectly. Carry and shoot a gun that you can place fast and accurate follow ups with and let caliber and all that fall further down the list of essentials.

VooDoo


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## Cait43

Basically what he is stating is carry the weapon you(not anyone else) feel comfortable carrying and shooting and be sure to use hollow points(just about any brand) for defense....... Good article........


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## zeke4351

I call BS on these self proclaimed experts. They leave out things to make their articles look like that they know what they are talking about. A lot of people have been shot with the 10mm because the FBI and a lot of other LE agencies used to carry it at one time. Why does this yoyo not even mention it? Because it would ruin his whole story.


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## zeke4351

Also I have noticed where everyplace this picture gets posted on a gun forum the 10mm is left off the bottom where it was originally included. Beware of the things you read and see on the various gun forums and do your own research other places.


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## VAMarine

zeke4351 said:


> I call BS on these self proclaimed experts. They leave out things to make their articles look like that they know what they are talking about. A lot of people have been shot with the 10mm because the FBI and a lot of other LE agencies used to carry it at one time. Why does this yoyo not even mention it? Because it would ruin his whole story.





zeke4351 said:


> Also I have noticed where everyplace this picture gets posted on a gun forum the 10mm is left off the bottom where it was originally included. Beware of the things you read and see on the various gun forums and do your own research other places.


"Self Proclaimed expert"

Greg's (the author) bio and back ground is included at the bottom of the first post, I'd love to see your resume. As far as "Yoyo" is concerned, you might want to do a couple things before resulting to name calling:

1: Do your own research re: the 10mm. The FBI did not use it long, and the number of agencies that issue it is few.

2: If you're going to use a photo of penetration and expansion to back any kind of argument, you might want to find one that hasn't been photoshopped.

3: The author had no end-game with the article and I've never heard him refer to himself as an expert, and I actually know the guy. How including the 10mm would invalidate his argument (what is the supposed argument?) is beyond me. I'm sure if he had enough data to show the 10mm he would have, but the fact of the matter is that the 10mm is not in much use.


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## zeke4351

The mushroom has been added somewhere but leaving that off you can tell the rest is real. The man might be your best friend but the fact remains he left out 10mm on purpose and never bothered to mention that it was left out and why. I have a State Police issued 1076 S&W in my safe right now along with some of their ammo that has their initials in the base of the brass. The ammo is full power and not the sissy FBI loads. If the man had mentioned the 10mm it would have changed his whole story around so he left it out. It is what it is no matter what you don't like about what I have said. The 10mm was used by a lot of agency's and lot of people shot with it. The 10mm is not used anywhere now that I know of but he says he went back 10 years right?


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## VAMarine

zeke4351 said:


> The mushroom has been added somewhere but leaving that off you can tell the rest is real. The man might be your best friend but the fact remains he left out 10mm on purpose and never bothered to mention that it was left out and why. I have a State Police issued 1076 S&W in my safe right now along with some of their ammo that has their initials in the base of the brass. The ammo is full power and not the sissy FBI loads. If the man had mentioned the 10mm it would have changed his whole story around so he left it out. It is what it is no matter what you don't like about what I have said. The 10mm was used by a lot of agency's and lot of people shot with it.


Ok, so just what are you saying that the 10mm would have changed regarding "his story" I'm just not seeing it.


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## zeke4351

If the 10mm information had been used in this guys study all would have not turned out even like he says. It would have shown it to be superior to the other hand gun calibers and all the talk about all calibers being equal would have went down the drain after people swearing for years that caliber makes no difference.


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## borris

W O W ! Someone Is Stuck On 10 ! Y Not 11, L.O.L.


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## denner

"Ellifritz's study looked at over 1800 shootings and concluded that the average number of rounds for incapacitation was 2.08 for the .45; 2.36 for the .40; and 2.45 for the 9mm. All very close. Again, your decision."

"What about carrying a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm, etc? Since these guns require bigger and wider frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal and weigh more. Try carrying one of them around for just a few days and see how it feels. Width is more important than length for a carry gun. These large guns, although they have slightly better overall stopping power than the 9mm, .45, and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control, accuracy, and practical use. Again, it depends mostly on you and your fundamentals, shot placement skills, and practice. Another consideration now is cost and availability of ammo. Can you afford to practice regularly with this caliber? Larger caliber ammunition is generally more expensive than smaller caliber ammunition."

"The author believes concealed carry shooters should focus on developing their fundamental shooting abilities and accuracy skills, rather than overly-focusing on their gun, calibers, and equipment. It is the shooter's ability and skill at placing whatever caliber rounds (he/she chooses to carry in their handgun of choice) on target consistently that determines whether they will live or die in a deadly encounter."

The articles above focus on popular calibers used for self defense and law enforcement. The 10mm would not fall into this category. There was a reason the .40cal was developed and the 10mm dropped by the FBI as a primary cartridge.

The Best Handgun Caliber for Your Concealed Carry Weapon? - USA Carry


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## TAPnRACK

^ Agree... if size was that important we'd all be carrying these...








...and running 325gr bullets through em.

Shot placement trumps everything else in the real world... and how fast you can perceive danger and react to it.


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## denner

TAPnRACK said:


> ^ Agree... if size was that important we'd all be carrying these...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and running 325gr bullets through em.
> 
> Shot placement trumps everything else in the real world... and how fast you can perceive danger and react to it.


Remember "Scorpio". 
Dirty Harry - My, that's a big one. - YouTube


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## Lonestar3

I just watched an episode of the cop murder show 48 hours where a guy on video shot and killed 3 people with a .380 in less than one minute. The smaller .380 gets a bad rap in a lot of gun forums for being too small. The 3 dead people would disagree ...except they are dead.
The article is very good. It points out the fact that big is not necessarily better in all situations. Smaller is also usually cheaper. Bullet manufacturers probably hate this guy.


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## Lonestar3

The FBI probably realized there was only marginal difference between a a dead perp and a REALLY dead perp.


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## AdamSmith

VAMarine said:


> This is an interesting article written by one of the instructors @ the Tactical Defense Institute of Ohio
> 
> *An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power: Buckeye Firearms Assoc*.
> 
> It's not the end-all be-all of caliber debate / discussion but it definitely worth taking a look at.
> 
> About the author:


Great article, VAM, thanks !!!

So he concludes that there is not much difference between/among any of the handguns (pistols and revolvers).

His charts indicate that the shotgun and rifle are superior though. By rifles, he must mean the battle carbines. I don't know of too many incidents with bolt action hunting rifles.

I think it makes sense to keep a shotgun handy at home, and use the pistol as a backup then.

For the street you cannot sensibly carry around a shotgun or carbine rifle though.

Whereas the 40's and 357's give slightly superior performance, they also risk greater collateral damage with these, as with the 44 mag.

The 9mm's seem to be the most popular, however their performance is little different than any other cartridge, taking about 2 hits to incapacitate, as do almost all of the handguns (pistols and revolvers).

Good study, and good charts, thanks VAM.


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## AdamSmith

denner said:


> "Ellifritz's study looked at over 1800 shootings and concluded that the average number of rounds for incapacitation was 2.08 for the .45; 2.36 for the .40; and 2.45 for the 9mm. All very close. Again, your decision."
> 
> "What about carrying a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm, etc? Since these guns require bigger and wider frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal and weigh more. Try carrying one of them around for just a few days and see how it feels. Width is more important than length for a carry gun. These large guns, although they have slightly better overall stopping power than the 9mm, .45, and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control, accuracy, and practical use. Again, it depends mostly on you and your fundamentals, shot placement skills, and practice. Another consideration now is cost and availability of ammo. Can you afford to practice regularly with this caliber? Larger caliber ammunition is generally more expensive than smaller caliber ammunition."
> 
> "The author believes concealed carry shooters should focus on developing their fundamental shooting abilities and accuracy skills, rather than overly-focusing on their gun, calibers, and equipment. It is the shooter's ability and skill at placing whatever caliber rounds (he/she chooses to carry in their handgun of choice) on target consistently that determines whether they will live or die in a deadly encounter."
> 
> The articles above focus on popular calibers used for self defense and law enforcement. The 10mm would not fall into this category. There was a reason the .40cal was developed and the 10mm dropped by the FBI as a primary cartridge.
> 
> The Best Handgun Caliber for Your Concealed Carry Weapon? - USA Carry


This separate study concludes the same thing -- no big difference between/among the various pistol/revolver cartridges.


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## AdamSmith

zeke4351 said:


> I call BS on these self proclaimed experts. They leave out things to make their articles look like that they know what they are talking about. A lot of people have been shot with the 10mm because the FBI and a lot of other LE agencies used to carry it at one time. Why does this yoyo not even mention it? Because it would ruin his whole story.


If you added the 38 special, 357, and 44 mag to this chart, it would blow away the 10 mm.

The problem with these 4 rounds is that they are better suited for highway patrolman work, when shooting through cars might become an issue.

But with them the collateral damage is greater.


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## AdamSmith

johnme said:


> I will Save this info for my ccw classes, that ? always comes out.
> I stopped at a lgs just kill time, bad work :] a lady and the sales person slid over to me looking threw the glass , holding her new ccw card in her hand.
> She seemed pissed off at the sales man for showing the 9mm pistols to her. I heard her say 2' from me. { I want a one stop shot gun } ! I had to step
> in and told her I am A NRA instructor and can I help ? sales man smiled at me, like thanks ! Told her about the new sd ammo and everyone needs a22lr
> pistol to cross training, with the price of ammo ! Someone missed a big part of teaching her the basics !


A true one stop gun would be a 44 of some kind, either the special or the magnum. And these are both revolvers, so the ammo capacity is low.

I therefore prefer the 45 ACP as the mean and measure of all things, with everything else falling to the right or the left of them -- the 9mm slightly weaker and the 40 slightly stronger.


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## SouthernBoy

The .44 Magnum would be a rather poor choice as a SD daily carry gun. It is large, heavy, and the recoil and muzzle blast don't aid in rapid followup shots. I do love that caliber for its intended purpose; hunting large game animals and protection against large and aggressive animals.

Handgun calibers and cartridge loads have always been a hotly debated topic when the issue of self defense is the center of that discussion. I don't imagine that is going to change while I am alive. My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 Glock 23's loaded with either Federal 165g HST's or Speer Gold Dot 165gr JHP "hot load" (#53970). It is currently stoked with the aforementioned Gold Dots. I do carry a 9mm from time to time and even a .380ACP when I cannot carry one of my preferred guns.

The issue of penetration is very important and this was driven home to me about a year and a half ago. I was sitting in a McDonald's having a quick breakfast when in walked three or four young men. One of these men was a large fellow, not so much in height but in girth. There was a lot of meat between his chest and his back and I got to thinking that if I had to shoot this man, I would be asking my bullet to do a lot for me. The distance through his upper torso had to be in the neighborhood of over two feet. Add to that the fact that he was clothed and was wearing a jacket or coat. All of a sudden that 9mm didn't seem to have much of a chance to stop him should he be of a mind to do me harm. It was a sobering experience.

I don't claim to have the answers to what is best in terms of caliber and load, though I have made my choices in this arena. I'm not going to know if I am right until the time comes when I have to find out quickly. And then I had better be at least a bit right.... and damned accurate.


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## SouthernBoy

AdamSmith said:


> If you added the 38 special, 357, and 44 mag to this chart, it would blow away the 10 mm.
> 
> The problem with these 4 rounds is that they are better suited for highway patrolman work, when shooting through cars might become an issue.
> 
> But with them the collateral damage is greater.


The .38 Special is nowhere near the measure of the 10mm.


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## AdamSmith

SouthernBoy said:


> The .38 Special is nowhere near the measure of the 10mm.


Yet it is in the same category of over-powered cartridges.


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## AdamSmith

SouthernBoy said:


> The .44 Magnum would be a rather poor choice as a SD daily carry gun. It is large, heavy, and the recoil and muzzle blast don't aid in rapid followup shots. I do love that caliber for its intended purpose; hunting large game animals and protection against large and aggressive animals.
> 
> Handgun calibers and cartridge loads have always been a hotly debated topic when the issue of self defense is the center of that discussion. I don't imagine that is going to change while I am alive. My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 Glock 23's loaded with either Federal 165g HST's or Speer Gold Dot 165gr JHP "hot load" (#53970). It is currently stoked with the aforementioned Gold Dots. I do carry a 9mm from time to time and even a .380ACP when I cannot carry one of my preferred guns.
> 
> The issue of penetration is very important and this was driven home to me about a year and a half ago. I was sitting in a McDonald's having a quick breakfast when in walked three or four young men. One of these men was a large fellow, not so much in height but in girth. There was a lot of meat between his chest and his back and I got to thinking that if I had to shoot this man, I would be asking my bullet to do a lot for me. The distance through his upper torso had to be in the neighborhood of over two feet. Add to that the fact that he was clothed and was wearing a jacket or coat. All of a sudden that 9mm didn't seem to have much of a chance to stop him should he be of a mind to do me harm. It was a sobering experience.
> 
> I don't claim to have the answers to what is best in terms of caliber and load, though I have made my choices in this arena. I'm not going to know if I am right until the time comes when I have to find out quickly. And then I had better be at least a bit right.... and damned accurate.


I believe the US Army settled all this back in 1911.

Then the Europeans came along and introduced their own version in the 9mm.

The two are fairly similar IF you use expanding bullets. Then there is hardly a difference at all.

Everything else is either lighter or heavier.

Heavier makes no sense unless you are a highway patrol officer.

The article demonstrates that lighter is ok too.


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## denner

SouthernBoy said:


> All of a sudden that 9mm didn't seem to have much of a chance to stop him should he be of a mind to do me harm. It was a sobering experience.


There are plenty of very good 9mm loads that equal .40 and .45 in penetration if that's what you're referring to. 9mm is more load selective, 147's or bonded 124's or 147's come to mind, or even Corbon's 115 gr DPX.:smt083


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## SouthernBoy

AdamSmith said:


> Yet it is in the same category of over-powered cartridges.


Hard to imagine that when one considers the fact that it has less power than a good 9mm, let alone a .40S&W or a 10mm. Check out how it did in the Philippines uprising.


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## SouthernBoy

denner said:


> There are plenty of very good 9mm loads that equal .40 and .45 in penetration if that's what you're referring to. 9mm is more load selective, 147's or bonded 124's or 147's come to mind, or even Corbon's 115 gr DPX.:smt083


Believe me, I am quite familiar with the various offerings in 9mm ammunition.


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## Liamettocs

The best part of the Spalding article was the quote from Dr. DiMaio: "The secret to handgun stopping power remains where you shoot your opponent and how many times you shoot them."

I know its popular for manly men to declare the 10mm the be-all and end-all. I don't test my manhood by my ability to shoot the 10mm and, frankly, I question the manhood of those that do. 

The problem is recoil. The recoil of a 10mm (heck, even a 40 cal) makes it hard for the average citizen to get off a good, quick second shot. I've worked hard to get good with the .40, shooting 2x week, but the average citizen (indeed, the average LEO) doesn't shoot nearly that often. And I lift weights (heavy and hard) 4x/week, so I'm not a girly girl. 

At the end of the day, it comes down to what Dr. DiMiao said - shot placement and follow-up shot placement.


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## GCBHM

Liamettocs said:


> I've worked hard to get good with the .40, shooting 2x week, but the average citizen (indeed, the average LEO) doesn't shoot nearly that often. At the end of the day, it comes down to what Dr. DiMiao said - shot placement and follow-up shot placement.


Just think about how quick and accurate you would be if you were shooting the 9mm. I was a died in the wool, got to shoot a .40 to be serious about defense years ago. Then I began to think about defensive shooting differently. I began to look at what ballistics experts said about handgun bullets, and at what experts said about shot placement, etc. So I tested myself, and over the course of a couple years shooting several guns in these three main calibers, 9mm, .40 and .45, I realized two things. First, I was pretty accurate with all three. Accurate enough to be lethal with all three. Secondly, I was best with the 9mm of all three. And when you consider that the most elite military specops units all use the 9mm, and how the FBI (the agency that swore the 9mm off for the .40) is going back to it, and considering that there is not enough of a difference btwn the three to give one a distinct advantage of the other ballistically, I went back to the 9mm. If you're good with the .40, I promise you will be better with the 9mm. Even if you're "deadly accurate" with the .40, you will be better with the 9mm, and when you consider wear/tear on the gun, what's the point of shooing the .40?


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## Liamettocs

I pretty much agree with everything GHCBM said except for the part about wear and tear on the gun. That may be a consideration for police depts and the military, but not for civilians. The only civilians I've known who have worn out a handgun are active competitors in IDPA etc.


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## GCBHM

Liamettocs said:


> I pretty much agree with everything GHCBM said except for the part about wear and tear on the gun. That may be a consideration for police depts and the military, but not for civilians. The only civilians I've known who have worn out a handgun are active competitors in IDPA etc.


This is true, unless you're one of those non-competive civilians who shoot a lot. 

Not too many competitive shooters shoot the .40 that I'm aware. I think most shoot the 9mm, but the .45 is also a popular round for them.


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## crewchief

I know this is an old thread but does anybody remember the US ARMY had to ship thousands of old 45 colt single action army revolvers to the Phillipines cuz our 38spl revolvers weren't cutting the mustard on killing the Moros? It is why the Army decided on the 45 cal handgun weapons. NATO is the reason for the US sticking with the nine. So many girls joining our police agency's is also the reason why the 40 is going by by. The 10mm went by by cuz 50 percent of the FBI agents couldn't qualify with it.. Hell I've been hearing the guys can't qualify with the 40 either now!!! So everybody's gonna be shooting the nine. Yeah I hear the nines so much improved now but the 40 has had the same Upgrades!!!


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## Tangof

I believe they were .38 Colt, not .38 Special, and they were a wimpy caliber.


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## Steve M1911A1

That's correct.


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