# Why a DAO should NOT have an external safety lever....



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Other then forgetting to disengage the external safety lever in a critical situation,, or eliminating the time it takes to disengage the lever.

I feel IMHO , there is another important factor or variable that should be noted why DAO Strikers should not have an external safety lever.

Pic ? What the hell are you you referring too ? :smt017


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

While I agree with your thesis, I'd like to know what you're getting at.

I think that the whole point of a DAO pistol (striker or hammer) is that it doesn't need a safety lever.
Of course, some have 'em anyway, for instance the new Ruger.

But if you practice properly, disengaging a safety lever becomes an automatic-pilot component of the draw stroke.
If your pistol has a functioning safety lever, even if it's DAO, you had better practice disengaging that safety as part of every draw stroke.
The one time you don't hit the safety, it'll be "on" when you need it to be "off."


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

My thought is around the possibility of inadvertently disengaging the safety lever.

The safety lever on a DAO could give you a false sense of security , based on your dependence of that safety lever.

I apologize about the vaguely stated post.

I think Glock got it Right with no safety lever on a DAO PISTOL.

I have inadvertently tripped off *very tight* safety levers and wondered how the heck it happened,lol.

I would hope the people who are into DAO STRIKERS with safety levers do not depend on the safety lever to a certain degree.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

pic said:


> My thought is around the possibility of inadvertently disengaging the safety lever.
> 
> The safety lever on a DAO could give you a false sense of security , based on your dependence of that safety lever.
> 
> ...


I agree to a certain extent, however, how many ND's have occured resulting in injury to oneself with comparatively light DOA triggers with no safety lever?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I hear ya,
One example in my own personal CCW .

I will pocket carry unholstered my glock 27 without a round chambered.

If I had an external safety lever on my g27 would that allow me to feel safer with a chambered round? It might put me into an unsafe false sense of security.

I will pocket carry my sub beretta , round chambered, but then it's not a DAO. 
We still have the long pull in DA.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Neither of our DAO pocket pistols, one in .380 and one in .45, have safety levers.
Instead, both have revolver-like trigger actions.
Thus, both are perfectly safe for pocket carry with "one up the pipe."

Were I carrying, for instance, the new Ruger 9mm, which is DAO but with a safety, I would leave its safety "off," but I would still press the safety lever down during a presentation.
"Suspenders and belt," as it were: There's that small chance that either I or my pocket lining will have accidentally moved the safety to "on."

If you carry a light-trigger DAO, for instance the Glock, its lack of safety lever is not meaningful _*if*_ your holster covers its trigger, and _*if*_ you reholster very carefully.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

pic said:


> I will pocket carry unholstered my glock 27 without a round chambered.
> 
> If I had an external safety lever on my g27 would that allow me to feel safer with a chambered round? It might put me into an unsafe false sense of security.


Pic, I agree with you, I myself would not have an issue carrying a striker fired DOA in a good kydex shelled holster with good retention IWB. With pocket carry, I'm with you. I personally do not like external safety's for carry myself and if I did I'd train till the cows came home to use it to where it became engrained and second nature, or as Steve has mentioned to make sure it's offbefore presentation.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Before shunning external safety levers, one should ascertain that the gun is truly DA. My definition is this: If I pull the trigger and the hammer/striker falls on an empty chamber and then I can pull the trigger again (no cocking, racking, etc.) and repeat the process, it's double action. That tells me that the striker/hammer is not under full or partial tension.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

H


Steve M1911A1 said:


> Neither of our DAO pocket pistols, one in .380 and one in .45, have safety levers.
> Instead, both have revolver-like trigger actions.
> Thus, both are perfectly safe for pocket carry with "one up the pipe."
> 
> ...


I agree,
The long pull of a double action only as in a revolver is quite a different animal.

Is that action also considered "DAO " ???


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

When I hear or read "DAO" I assume we are referring to a striker fired glock type trigger.

Then there is the "LEM" or " DAk". I have no experience with these, I may be off base here. 

:smt1099


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

pic said:


> When I hear or read "DAO" I assume we are referring to a striker fired glock type trigger.
> 
> Then there is the "LEM" or " DAk". I have no experience with these, I may be off base here.
> 
> :smt1099


Yes, of course there is hammer fired DAO, which in my understanding is half cocked when cycled and generally has a heavier/longer pull and longer reset than a striker fired DAO, but in other aspects has the same attributes, except perhaps for the ones mentioned above.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

My trigger scale tops out at 12 pounds.
Our .45 ACP DAO pocket pistol pins the scale. The Kel-Tec's trigger "weighs" about eight pounds.

Regardless of whether or not their triggers are pre-set or partly cocked, these "weights" of trigger are safety enough.


Glock triggers are not true DAO actions. That's why I used the term "light-trigger DAO."
Revolvers which cannot be thumb-cocked are indeed DAO.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Yea that's an issue. What if you forget to take the safety off? What if you forget to load a round in the chamber and what if you aim and forget to pull the trigger. I'll think when people starting to develop dementia and it starts to show it's may time to give the drivers license back and do not carry a gun anymore.
I make a bet, the ones that unable to handle mentally a manual safety have their doors in their homes equipped with roller latches because they fear that they forget to turn a door knob and fear to hit the head on the door. Right? You can admit that I don't tell. 

In a perfect world Glock style safety guns are perfect. But sorry we don't live in a perfect world. I know every single one here loads his automatic gun, but the gun in the holster and will never ever pull the gun out of that holster if it is not an emergency situation and no one at least here in that forum had ever handled his loaded or unloaded gun unnecessarily. Right? 

Accidents with guns don't happen because someone shoots at someone. The most people harm themselves or innocent bystanders when guns are handled unnecessary. That is a fact.

You have roller latches on your doors and put a automatic door closer with a heavy spring-load on it, because you fear that you might forget to turn a door knob and may hit your head on the door. I like doors that are latching securely in their frames and have never forgotten, in my entire lifetime, not even when I was drunk, to turn a door knob before entering a room, and that is now more than a 1/2 century. 

You like it this way and I like it that way and that makes our world almost perfect and lovable.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> My trigger scale tops out at 12 pounds.
> Our .45 ACP DAO pocket pistol pins the scale. The Kel-Tec's trigger "weighs" about eight pounds.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not their triggers are pre-set or partly cocked, these "weights" of trigger are safety enough.
> ...


I feel the same way about the DAO striker fired guns, eg GLOCK.

BUT, it seems to now own the "DAO" label, title, whatever.
I personally just refer to the letters "DAO " when mentioning the striker fired DAO 's.

It's a battle I used to fight, lol. But have conceded, :smt033


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yes, what Steve said about Glocks not being DAO systems is true. It is a DA, and yes, that is the only operation it has, but a DAO is typically a hammer fire pistol with no option of SA operation. There is a significant difference in these two systems. The pull on a DAO is usually almost twice as hard and long as a standard striker fire pistol, like Glock, M&P, etc.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

denner said:


> I agree to a certain extent, however, how many ND's have occured resulting in injury to oneself with comparatively light DOA triggers with no safety lever?


We have seen that happen some years ago in Washington, DC. But at that time, some of the people hired had criminal records. The training was next to ridiculous.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I would never carry a Glock, an M&P, or an XD (or any similarly designed trigger) in a pocket. These designs are intended for a specific use and feel. However, I have carried DAO's which fall into the design type of the Kahr, the Kel-Tec, and the LCP. Their triggers are much like that of a DA revolver being operated in DA mode.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

The terms SA and DA have been around longer than the pistols that they are now forced to describe. Glock tried to avoid the pigeonholing with the term "safe action". It didn't work.
A more modern description of DA is that the sear performs two functions. It completes the cocking process and releases the moving part that directly or indirectly causes the dimpling of the primer.
The when, where, and how much of this process is what everyone should know about their particular weapon. Then they won't fall into the trap of thinking, "Oh, my gun doesn't need a safety. It's striker fired."


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Actually, most striker fire pistols do actually have external safeties. Granted, these safeties are not traditional external safeties, but they are safety mechanisms, and they are external. Glock, M&P, HK, Walther & SA, all have safeties in the trigger. The SA XDs have an additional external safety in the grip, and the M&Ps come equipped with a traditional external safety. I'm not a fan of external safeties on DA/DAO guns, but each his own.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> I would never carry a Glock, an M&P, or an XD (or any similarly designed trigger) in a pocket. These designs are intended for a specific use and feel. However, I have carried DAO's which fall into the design type of the Kahr, the Kel-Tec, and the LCP. Their triggers are much like that of a DA revolver being operated in DA mode.


I have no problem pocket carrying a glock 27, really quite comfortable.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

pic said:


> I have no problem pocket carrying a glock 27, really quite comfortable.


In or outside a holster?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> I have no problem pocket carrying a glock 27, really quite comfortable.


It's not the comfort I am concerned about, pic. It's what can happen with the Glock trigger when unprotected by a good holster that concerns me. Doesn't take much to discharge that weapon. I have owned Glocks for 20 years so I am quite familiar with their design and operation. I won't tempt the gods of fools.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> It's not the comfort I am concerned about, pic. It's what can happen with the Glock trigger when unprotected by a good holster that concerns me. Doesn't take much to discharge that weapon. I have owned Glocks for 20 years so I am quite familiar with their design and operation. I won't tempt the gods of fools.


I couldn't agree with you more SB.

If anybody knows about GLOCKS, It's you, NO DOUBT.

I chose to carry unholstered without a round chambered in the pocket. I first carried the 27 holstered for a couple years.

Then decided that the design of the GLOCK and careful attention to the pocket carry , the holster was burdensome in my situation.

I agree the GLOCK is not a designed pocket carry handgun.
Great point. 
:smt1099


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

GCBHM said:


> Glock, M&P, HK, Walther & SA, all have safeties in the trigger. .


GCBHM, ya sure, an external safety on the trigger? That's like saying, hey look, my brake pedal is my gas pedal. I'm not buying it, and neither should anyone else. A Glock is likewise not a DA triggered firearm, it is indeed a DAO trigger or SA trigger. All DA triggers have this one common attribute unlike DAO and SA only triggers in that they have the capability of repetitive strike capability W/O the slide cocking the trigger mechanism.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

SouthernBoy said:


> I won't tempt the gods of fools.


Ahhh, well said.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

denner said:


> Ya sure, an external safety on the trigger? That's like saying, hey look, my brake pedal is in my gas pedal. I'm not buying it, and neither should anyone else. A Glock is likewise not a DA triggered firearm, it is indeed a DOA trigger or SA trigger. All DA triggers have this one common attribute unlike DOA and SA only triggers in that they have the capability of repetitive strike capability W/O the slide cocking the trigger mechanism.


Sure I'm sure. The triggers have either a tongue or a hinge which mechanically prevents the trigger from being depressed unless you depress the safety mechanism. I don't see it as saying the pedal thing...not all DA triggers have that in common. Actually, the Sig P320, for example, does not have any sort of external safety on the trigger or anywhere else on the gun.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Funny how we recommend Glocks to newbies, but somehow now , it's become a special duty gun. :smt033


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Neither of our DAO pocket pistols, one in .380 and one in .45, have safety levers.
> Instead, both have revolver-like trigger actions.
> Thus, both are perfectly safe for pocket carry with "one up the pipe."
> 
> ...


Never knew RUGER had such a piece, good example .
Link
http://stevespages.com/pdf/ruger_p89-p944_double_action_only.pdf


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

GCBHM said:


> Sure I'm sure. The triggers have either a tongue or a hinge which mechanically prevents the trigger from being depressed unless you depress the safety mechanism. I don't see it as saying the pedal thing...not all DA triggers have that in common. Actually, the Sig P320, for example, does not have any sort of external safety on the trigger or anywhere else on the gun.


If you say so. But please do not rely on that "so called" trigger safety mechanism especially while handling or reholstering the chambered firearm and make sure when you carry the pistol that safety mechanism is well covered and inacessable by the holster. Last, but not least, if you happen to inadvertantly drop your loaded Glock, please "do not" rely on the trigger safety mechanism to try to catch it on the way down.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

denner said:


> If you say so. But please do not rely on that "so called" trigger safety mechanism especially while handling or reholstering the chambered firearm and make sure when you carry the pistol that safety mechanism is well covered and inacessable by the holster. Last, but not least, if you happen to inadvertantly drop your loaded Glock, please "do not" rely on the trigger safety mechanism to try to catch it on the way down.


The Glock actually has a drop safety which is designed to prevent discharge due to being dropped, so you don't have to be concerned about me relying on the trigger safety for that. Also, please bear in mind that I never said that I would carry a Glock with the trigger unprotected. The safety mechanism is not fool proof, but then which one is? This trigger safety is designed to prevent glancing blows from tripping the trigger like can happen on DA pistols when cocked to SA mode, but something tells me you really already know this. Of course, anyone who would not be conscious of their trigger while re-holstering their pistol is foolish at best. At the end of the day, no gun is dangerous. People are. But then people tend to be funny creatures anyway. Some even start straw-man arguments for no apparent reason.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

GCBHM said:


> The Glock actually has a drop safety which is designed to prevent discharge due to being dropped, so you don't have to be concerned about me relying on the trigger safety for that. Also, please bear in mind that I never said that I would carry a Glock with the trigger unprotected. The safety mechanism is not fool proof, but then which one is? This trigger safety is designed to prevent glancing blows from tripping the trigger like can happen on DA pistols when cocked to SA mode, but something tells me you really already know this. Of course, anyone who would not be conscious of their trigger while re-holstering their pistol is foolish at best.


Yes, I'm aware of Glock's and most modern semi's internal drop safeties, that's why it is always best to let them drop as opposed to trying to catch them on the way down. One case in point is an undercover officer using a port-o-poty at a fair. He drops his Glock while pulling up his trousers and attempts to catch it on the way down. The result was an 81 year old shot in the leg in the next port-o-poty over. :toimonster:

The safety action trigger in which you purport to being an external safety is all too often defeated by such things as coat drawstrings, worn leather holsters, or anything that can get to that trigger "dingy". Would you carry around your G-19 chambered and unholstered in your pants or pocket and rely on the so called external "safe action trigger?"


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thanks for your input, denner. I'll advise Glock of your findings.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

GCBHM said:


> Thanks for your input, denner. I'll advise Glock of your findings.


Thank-you, GCBHM. BTW, G-19's Rock. If I wasn't a Beretta fanboy, I'd be owning Glocks.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

denner said:


> Thank-you, GCBHM. BTW, G-19's Rock. If I wasn't a Beretta fanboy, I'd be owning Glocks.


Well, as it were, if I weren't a G19 man, I believe the PX4 Storm compact would do me quite well. That is a dandy of a little gun.


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## Niland (Jul 29, 2014)

My spouse and I both carry DAO SIG's with no safety and one in the pipe. I can't imagine what combination of Tom foolery I'd have to engage in to cause an ND. If you are carrying a weapon, you should always exercise prudence. In this case, practice, practice and more practice with the gun and holster you use to carry. After you are done practicing get some training and practice more. 

I'll grant you it's possible you could get clothing or something caught up while holstering, but you'd have to work at it. Again, practice and practice until you don't screw up through rote muscle memory...and complacency kills. Don't ever forget what you are carrying and why.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

BTW: The Ruger DAO pistol with a safety lever is their LC9s.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic:


> I chose to carry unholstered without a round chambered in the pocket. I first carried the 27 holstered for a couple years.


When carrying my G26 in a pocket, I always use a pocket holster that completely covers the trigger mechanism along with a round in the chamber. I'm curious as to why you would want to carry your G27 unholstered without a round in the chamber in your pocket? Pocket holsters are not burdensome, there are many different types that are available. It seems to me that you would have to draw the weapon and chamber a round before you could use it, costing you precious seconds if you were in a life or death situation. Defeating any advantage of pocket carry. If you do choose to pocket carry and are apprehensive of carrying your G27 in a pocket holster you might be better off choosing a different type of weapon such as an S&W hammerless J-frame which would be better suited for that purpose. Still, I would not even recommend carrying one of those or any gun without a suitable pocket holster. Pocket holsters are designed to stay in your pocket as the weapon is being drawn. They also keep the weapon in an upright position instead of flopping around in your pocket. Whenever I re-holster my G26, I remove the holster from my pocket, place the weapon in the holster, grasp the sides of the holstered pistol between my thumb and forefinger and carefully place the holstered weapon back in my pocket. I use this method for all types of pistols that are suitable for pocket carry. Pocket holsters also help disguise the pistol as there is less of a chance of "printing". Unless you're carrying an empty gun, and if that's the case you may as well carry a brick, it really makes no sense to not use a pocket holster. If I have to draw a gun to defend myself I just want to draw it, pull the trigger and not even have the slightest chance of fumbling with an un-chambered weapon. No offense intended, but I would hope that you reconsider your method of pocket carry.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> I couldn't agree with you more SB.
> 
> If anybody knows about GLOCKS, It's you, NO DOUBT.
> 
> ...


At the risk of sounding a bit off base, may I suggest that you reconsider carrying in less than full battery (though not in your pocket with your G27). It takes time to get a gun out of a pocket and even more time is lost working that slide to chamber a round. We want you around for a long time. Do give this some thought.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Your absolutely correct in your recommendation. I would never advise my method of pocket carry. 

I realize I give away an advantage, but at times I could have grand kids that want to jump all over me at times. I might find myself chasing , on a good day, after a frisbee or jumping on a bicycle , all without proper notice,lol. 

Point well taken,
Pic


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic:
Thanks "pic"! For appreciating our suggestions regarding pocket carry. Some people do get bent out of shape when others make suggestions. Glad you're not one of them. Safety should be our prime concern when posting on forums such as this as many people look to these forums for information. It is our duty to steer them in the right direction.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

pic said:


> Funny how we recommend Glocks to newbies, but somehow now , it's become a special duty gun. :smt033


Glocks have always been special duty guns, but its the fact that they are so simple to operate and maintain that they are recommended to newbies. At least, that's my side of it.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Your absolutely correct in your recommendation. I would never advise my method of pocket carry.
> 
> I realize I give away an advantage, but at times I could have grand kids that want to jump all over me at times. I might find myself chasing , on a good day, after a frisbee or jumping on a bicycle , all without proper notice,lol.
> 
> ...


Believe me, I understand your predicament. That's why when I determine that pocket carry is in my best interests, I go with either a Ruger LCP or a Kahr PM9. Their triggers are very similar to those of DA revolvers fired in DA mode. The Kahr has a very smooth trigger with 3/8" travel. The LCP trigger is a little heavier and a touch longer in the stroke. These two guns make very good pocket guns but, of course, nothing is perfect.

When one chooses to pocket carry, one has to be aware of the potential danger on their person and go about their activities accordingly.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

As I mentioned earlier, I would never pocket carry a Glock, or a gun with a similar trigger, where the trigger is unprotected by a holster. Their design is such that if that trigger got snagged or bumped, there is a very real possibility that the gun could discharge.

I know of a man who was re-holstering his Glock 23 in his leather belt holster while sitting in his SUV in a shopping center parking lot. His wife had to run back into a store and his children were in the vehicle with their dad. As the man inserted his gun, a flap of leather engaged the trigger and fired the gun, sending a .40S&W bullet into the man's right leg and severing his femoral artery. He exsanguinated right there in his SUV.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

denner said:


> If you say so. But please do not rely on that "so called" trigger safety mechanism especially while handling or reholstering the chambered firearm and make sure when you carry the pistol that safety mechanism is well covered and inacessable by the holster. Last, but not least, if you happen to inadvertantly drop your loaded Glock, please "do not" rely on the trigger safety mechanism to try to catch it on the way down.


That "trigger safety" on a Glock is actually a drop safety. The Glock has three safeties; one external and two internal. The two internal safeties work very well and are next to impossible to defeat.


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