# What are the laws with defending in self defense, or pulling out your gun?



## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Hey guys, I was just wondering the laws and circumstances that you act in self defense, or even pull out your hand gun out of the back of your car, or wherever it may be stashed.

I live in California but I'm guessing the "acting in self defense" are pretty much all over the US.

Thanks in advance!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

California laws are quite peculiar.
As I've told you before, you either need to speak with a California lawyer, or you need to do some serious legal research on your own.
I don't believe that there's anybody on this forum who is completely competent to give you legal advice on the peculiarities of California gun and self-protection law. Including me.

In California, you have the duty to retreat, even within your own home.
If you stash a handgun in the back of your car, it had better be unloaded, and in a separate container from its ammunition.

Go talk to an attorney.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> California laws are quite peculiar.
> As I've told you before, you either need to speak with a California lawyer, or you need to do some serious legal research on your own.
> I don't believe that there's anybody on this forum who is completely competent to give you legal advice on the peculiarities of California gun and self-protection law. Including me.
> 
> ...


Ditto to this.

I had some similar questions a while back and I met an attorney in my state who specializes in defending people who have had to use deadly force or have been charged with gun-related "crimes". He is also a strong gun rights proponent and he gives classes/lectures on the use of deadly force and I have attended three of his courses, among other ones. He is now a friend and I have had the opportunity to learn from him. One can also get books and view videos on the subject. One of the video sets I have on the use of deadly force has an interview with an attorney in California and he is quite knowledgeable.

The basic criteria for the use of deadly force as a defense is pretty much the same across the nation. But it is the peripheral stuff that can and does vary, can be confusing, and can get someone in a lot of legal trouble. You have mentioned one of them here; the duty to retreat.

I didn't know that California has this requirement before one can use deadly force in their defense. When I was in college, I did a paper on this and at that time (late 70's - I was a late college student), there were six states that had this law on their books.

Your advice for the OP to seek the council of a qualified attorney is spot on. I would also suggest that he visit opencarry.org and peruse the California forum, not for legal advice per se, but rather to gain some fundamental and general knowledge.

The biggest problem with attorneys is finding one that is not anti-gun and that has a strong knowledge and back ground in this area. So many of them have a strong bias against firearms in general and their carry and use by citizens in particular.

Lastly, the internet is a fine source of much information provided the reader knows enough to separate the BS and outright lies from fact. A perfect example is the old, "if you shoot him on your porch, just drag him inside" mentality. It is amazing how many people spread this crap and believe it.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the responses.

A few questions here: I know you can not have a loaded weapon in your vehicle, even in the truck. But could you have the semi-auto in a gun case, with the magazine loaded next to the gun? Or do you have to have the magazine in a different bag? I figured as long as its not inside the hand gun, you're fine.

Which also is kind've confusing is, so you have to retreat? So if someone busts in your house and you feel threatened you still have to retreat? Somewhat defeats the purpose of having a fire arm, right?

Also my other question was, what happens if you were somewhere, someone was harassing you and your friend (girl friend) what have you? If the person would not back off, could you pull your weapon out of your vehicle if you feel threatened?

Thanks again guys!


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

TheLAGuy said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> A few questions here: I know you can not have a loaded weapon in your vehicle, even in the truck. But could you have the semi-auto in a gun case, with the magazine loaded next to the gun? Or do you have to have the magazine in a different bag? I figured as long as its not inside the hand gun, you're fine.
> 
> ...


Your first question is most likely no. A loaded magazine (or clip  lol) is considered a "loaded firearms" in many cases. It's probably the dumbest law ever made. So if you have a gun with a loaded mag in your car and the mag isn't in the gun, its still considered loaded.

If someone bursts in your house and threatens to kill you shoot them please. I won't elaborate, shouldn't have to.

Your last question has too many variables. Most likely you will, but sometimes you get screwed over like Nick Cage in Con Air. So you have to weigh out the options. Someone else would be better suited to answer the last one for you.


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## cjs1945 (Nov 26, 2012)

The law is vary different from state to states, you need to research the laws in your stare. A self defense or concealed weapons class is a good place to start, they will advise you as to when it is legal to use deadly force and what the legal method of carrying and storing your weapon are in your stare.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Your first question is most likely no. A loaded magazine (or clip  lol) is considered a "loaded firearms" in many cases. It's probably the dumbest law ever made. So if you have a gun with a loaded mag in your car and the mag isn't in the gun, its still considered loaded.


A coworker says as long as both are locked in separate locked bags, I should be okay. I'm a little confused here but thanks for the help. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of this!


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Talk to someone who knows the law....like Steve said a lwyer is a good choice. He will answer your questions with facts and based upon the laws of your state. Here you will get many experts opinion, which often times make more sense then the law, but don't matter in court.

RCG


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

It just seems a bit pointless in CA to even own a handgun. And don't take this personal to any of you guys. But from what I've seen, you guys travel around with "one in the chamber". From what it seems in CA, unless your at OWN home, you have to keep the gun with rounds outside the magazine, outside the gun? Lets say your in a bind with the car in the back of your trunk. You literally have to take a minute to get everything "ready to roll". 

I'm just a little confused if you can actually have the magazine loaded, outside the gun, separate enclosures, in the back of your trunk.

Other question is, can you get in trouble with the law for simply pulling a gun on someone?

Thanks again guys!


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> It just seems a bit pointless in CA to even own a handgun. And don't take this personal to any of you guys. But from what I've seen, you guys travel around with "one in the chamber". From what it seems in CA, unless your at OWN home, you have to keep the gun with rounds outside the magazine, outside the gun? Lets say your in a bind with the car in the back of your trunk. You literally have to take a minute to get everything "ready to roll".
> 
> I'm just a little confused if you can actually have the magazine loaded, outside the gun, separate enclosures, in the back of your trunk.
> 
> ...


If you have a permit (which you're probably not going to be able to get) you can have your gun loaded. If you don't have a permit. You must transport the gun unloaded, this may include the magazine itself.

As for pulling a gun on someone, you can most certainly get in trouble for that if its not justified.

Brandishing, assault with a deadly weapon...just to name a few.

You really need to stop asking strangers on the internet and find a local educator in the know about use of force laws in CA.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

You really need to talk to an attorney or take a qualified and GOOD course on the use of self defense. You're asking questions that show you could get yourself in trouble so please do yourself a favor and get some accurate information from a solid and reliable source. Here's a start,

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/california.pdf

I would strongly, as in very strongly, advise you NOT to carry or attempt to use a firearm without first knowing the law. Now there are a few exceptions to this, example being that you are in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or worse. But you really need to study the law in your state regarding this issue, get appropriate training, and take courses conducted by an attorney knowledgeable in these matters.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Hey guys relax, I'm just asking the "general" laws as I'm a first time gun owner. I'm not trigger happy, I just did not know the laws as far as keeping my hand gun in the back of my car, whats considered loaded, safe without getting into trouble.

I also have heard that lets say you find someone in your house, a burglary, unless your in harm, you can't shoot.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TheLAGuy said:


> Hey guys relax, I'm just asking the "general" laws as I'm a first time gun owner. I'm not trigger happy, I just did not know the laws as far as keeping my hand gun in the back of my car, whats considered loaded, safe without getting into trouble.
> 
> I also have heard that lets say you find someone in your house, a burglary, unless your in harm, you can't shoot.


You see, here's the problem; "I also have heard....". We have all "also heard" but believe me, more often than not what we have heard ain't in compliance with the law. "I also have heard" can get you in a world of trouble.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> You see, here's the problem; "I also have heard....". We have all "also heard" but believe me, more often than not what we have heard ain't in compliance with the law. "I also have heard" can get you in a world of trouble.


Well then why don't you set the record straight?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

As it so happens, here's. An excerpt. From my current read, Facing Violence by Rory Miller


1.1: legal (criminal) Force law varies by state and sometimes, especially as it applies to weapons, by city. The principles are pretty universal but you need to personally read the statutes of your state. If you are a self-defense instructor, you need not only read them; but also to understand them, print them out, and have copies available to your students. Do a web search for your state and statutes or “revised statutes” and then search the statutes for “self-defense” and “force” and “justification.” Printed copies of the criminal code and statutes for your state will also be available from your state government. READ THEM YOURSELF! If your on-line search through the statutes for self defense law comes up empty, it is possible that the state has not codified the law. Try a global search for “your state” + “self defense” + “jury instructions.” 


...


affirmative defense The first thing you must understand is that in court self-defense is an affirmative defense. This has two huge implications. The first is that you are acknowledging the basic facts of what you did—if you hit someone with a brick and caused severe injury you are acknowledging that what you did falls under the definition of assault with a dangerous weapon and/or aggravated assault. Serious felonies


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> Well then why don't you set the record straight?


Because hes not going to do the work for your lazy self and spend 6 days reviewing California law just to pass his thoughts (which could be totally wrong) on those laws.

YOU need to start exercising some initiative and find "the answers" yourself or find a live person on your state to teach you.

Very few people will divulge legal info on the Internet, and for good reason.


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## barstoolguru (Mar 3, 2012)

this will help;
Handgunlaw.us


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

To *TheLAGuy*:
I don't know where you live in L.A., but I do know that there's a law library within easy reach. Los Angeles County maintains law libraries at every county courthouse: Downtown (the main and best of them), West L.A., the Valley, Chatsworth, and in other places too. The phone book will direct you to the nearest county courthouse.
All L.A. County law libraries are open to you, free of charge. Every one of them has at least one experienced law librarian available, to help you research the subjects in which you're interested. All you need do is phone to find out the hours during which they're open, and then drive, bus, or walk right in.
The only things you need, to use the county's law-library system, are an inquisitive mind, a little perseverance, and a functional knowledge of the English language. You already exhibit all three of these traits.
Bring a pad of lined paper and a bunch of pencils with you. Listen to what the librarian tells you, and do what he or she says. Take lots of careful notes.

You are now on your own.
I, for one, will no longer attempt to answer your endless, repetitive, lazy-minded questions.
Go do your own work.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> To *TheLAGuy*:
> I don't know where you live in L.A., but I do know that there's a law library within easy reach. Los Angeles County maintains law libraries at every county courthouse: Downtown (the main and best of them), West L.A., the Valley, Chatsworth, and in other places too. The phone book will direct you to the nearest county courthouse.
> All L.A. County law libraries are open to you, free of charge. Every one of them has at least one experienced law librarian available, to help you research the subjects in which you're interested. All you need do is phone to find out the hours during which they're open, and then drive, bus, or walk right in.
> The only things you need, to use the county's law-library system, are an inquisitive mind, a little perseverance, and a functional knowledge of the English language. You already exhibit all three of these traits.
> ...


Thanks for the heads up Steve!


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> Because hes not going to do the work for your lazy self and spend 6 days reviewing California law just to pass his thoughts (which could be totally wrong) on those laws.
> 
> YOU need to start exercising some initiative and find "the answers" yourself or find a live person on your state to teach you.
> 
> Very few people will divulge legal info on the Internet, and for good reason.


 rayer: rayer: rayer:

LAGuy, no offense but you seem to be extremely hard headed or having problems digesting the very good advice given, especially when a Forum Moderator chimes in. Asking advice from a handgun forum about the consequences of using deadly force with a firearm, or pulling out your gun in any state, but especially California is extremely risky at best. Maybe this guy can help you with answers : The California Gun Attorney - Self-Defense in Your Home


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

denner, that was actually a really good article.

let me once re-iterate i was mainly asking for the laws of carrying a hand gun in the trunk of my car. can i have a loaded magazine inside the trunk? or does it have to be un-loaded? if loaded can it be together in the same case, but not inside the gun.

believe me guys, i will use extreme caution when handling this man cannon!


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

LAGuy the site is not just an article but an attorney w/ 20 + years experience in firearms law in the State of California, it look's like you can zip his staff an e:mail and find the qualified answers you're looking for. All the best, be safe and good shooting.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah but attorneys never answer questions for free! lol


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Does ammo in a magazine =loaded gun? - Page 3 - CalCCW

I found some info!


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

You are in Komifornia,and in the worst spot for this topic,I would look into moving north or better a different state that is free.NY,DC,Chicago are suppressed just like you.

Unless you are versed in legalese (sp?),read as much as you can and when you don't understand it ask a lawyer that is versed in the law,it's the ONLY way to CYA.DON"T ask a cop,they don't know and I suspect most in your area are completely clueless and biased.

Here's an example here in FL.Cops would tell you there's a 3 step rule for carrying in your car.The law reads it can not be readily accessible and securely encased,period.Snap it in a holster and throw it in the glove box,the center console,under the seat,under the center console,100% in compliance of the law but it has nothing to do with 3 moves.

Brandishing was another.In the early days of CC if you reached up on a shelf and your weapon or holster peeked out and the cops were called there was a brandishing or improper exehibition charge,neither law existed and by the law there had to be a wanton and malicious act to fall under a charge,as in openly carrying where you couldn't or pulling it out and waving it around like a whackaloon.

Trust nobody's opinion besides a lawyer's that is versed in firearm law.It may cost a few bucks for a consultation,but that's a hell of a lot cheaper than getting 3 hots and a cot and losing everything you have.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

To help familiarize yourself with your new purchase this may help. Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm - YouTube


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

TheLAGuy said:


> Yeah but attorneys never answer questions for free! lol


Thats because they answer the questions................they don't just guess.

The real answer for a price is way better then someone who thinks they are right cause... one time in Iowa a guy they Know asked a guy who sells pistols who's dad was a cop well not a real cop but a mall security guy , but he knew the law!

Bad advice will eventually cost you way more then the real honest answer.

RCG


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

I don't plan on using my gun other than firing range guys, I'm just asking your guys knowledge, pretty simple. For some reason I'm getting the feeling that you guys think I'm some trigger happy fool, and I'm quite the opposite!


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Then on your way to the range and then on your way back home, keep your gun in the case and your mags stored seperate. Do not have any bullets in your mags or your guns. Store said bullets in a seperate locked box away from your weapons. Then even if its over kill you are good. It doesn't take long to load your mags at the range. A little over caution is never a bad thing. No one thinks you are _ trigger happy _fool!

RCG


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Better be safe than sorry?! So could I have my mag and hand gun in the bag, locked away and my ammo sitting a foot from it? In my trunk?


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## rdstrain49 (Dec 13, 2012)

No offense to anyone here, but the internet is hardly the place to obtain information that well may effect the rest of your life. I know, I know, if it's on the internet it must be true, but-----


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

It's so much easier where I live. Wallet in back pocket, keys, change, gun in holster on strong side (loaded), and off to the range. When I finish up and leave, gun is in holster on strong side fully loaded. Any extra handguns are in the range bag. Pretty simple.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm not going to live my life by it, just some simple advice.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> It's so much easier where I live. Wallet in back pocket, keys, change, gun in holster on strong side (loaded), and off to the range. When I finish up and leave, gun is in holster on strong side fully loaded. Any extra handguns are in the range bag. Pretty simple.


So do you go shopping at Walmart with your weapon just chillin by your side?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TheLAGuy said:


> So do you go shopping at Walmart with your weapon just chillin by your side?


Yep. And a host of other places. This week included grocery shopping, several trips to Lowe's, Home Depot, Walmart, Kohl's, Barnes and Noble, Taco Bell, McDonald's, Target, Goodyear Tire and Auto, Costco, and BJ's and those are the ones that come to mind right away. Tomorrow my bank and perhaps a little more shopping.

My carry rig looks professional, non-descript, and is pretty simple and unobtrusive. Certainly not threatening. It really is a no-brainer here and just doesn't create the kind of stuff so many people on these forums claim will happen. People scared and running from you, calls of MWAG (Man With A Gun), parents pulling their children close and exiting stores, hard stares, nasty comments, police harassment.... don't see any of this.


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## wazmo (Jan 1, 2012)

Sometimes I take living in Vermont too much for granted.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

wazmo said:


> Sometimes I take living in Vermont too much for granted.


Yeah, no permits required there for either mode of carry. But what about the general attitude of people going armed? Is it considered acceptable and pretty much normal or the opposite? I've never visited Vermont so I am clueless of how the people there view the carrying of firearms in public.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Asking when or when you can't use a firearm in self-defense, is like asking how do you fly a plane. 

You will be best served by researching this on your own and in your own area of residence.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Yah I think its a natural reaction if you need to use it, right?


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## Scott9mm (Jul 2, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> It just seems a bit pointless in CA ...


Yup! Move to a state with better laws and better taxes.


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## JerseyJubal (Feb 1, 2013)

It's not only the "Criminal Court" system you must be worried about living in the "Land of Butterflies, Rainbows, Unicorns, and Fairies", you will be sued "civilly" by the perpetrator (if he/she survives) or their heirs/relatives who are out to make a fast buck off their criminal gene bearing brethern. 

Most intelligent state legislatures have adopted protections holding homeowners "immune" from "civil liability" if they shoot, wounding or killing, a home intruder. Sadly my state, NJ as well as NY, Kommiefornia and others protect the criminals and their families by letting them sue the REAL victims of violent crime. How else are these money hungry enablers who profitted from the relatives "criminal enterprises" going to make up the losses when their relatives, ie. "street corner enterpreneurs" can no longer deal drugs, rob, burglarize, rape, and murder at will.


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## faststang90 (Apr 8, 2013)

when i got my conceled handgun license. l was told to try and leave first. if you are leaving and they are coming after you and you have already told them you have a conceled handgun license. you tell them to stop if they dont then you use your gun. i was told to make it only a one person story and always say you was in fear of your life. we was told never to pull your gun unless you use it. 
is that better steve and yes you must be old lol.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I must be getting old. (Must be? No. I absolutely am old!)
I had lots of trouble reading that last post.
"u"? "chl"? No capital letters? I'm glad that there were at least periods!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

faststang90 said:


> when i got my conceled handgun license. l was told to try and leave first. if you are leaving and they are coming after you and you have already told them you have a conceled handgun license. you tell them to stop if they dont then you use your gun. i was told to make it only a one person story and always say you was in fear of your life. we was told never to pull your gun unless you use it.
> is that better steve and yes you must be old lol.


Firstly, in which state do you reside?
Secondly, who told you this?

Based upon what you wrote here, you really do need some training in this area. My advice to you is to find and take a course, seminar, or lecture covering the legal aspects of the use of deadly force in your state. I have taken four such courses and still learn new things. Don't just rely on "what someone told me" information. Find out the facts that apply to you in your state or locale. Consult with an attorney who has experience in defending people who have had to use deadly force. Ask him your questions. Yes this can cost something but it could mean the difference between a horrible mistake or a justifiable/excusable homicide.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

There are 2 battles in a Self Defense Shooting:

The 1 on the street
The 1 in the court

You can win one but lose the other, knowing the law in your state... really knowing the law, can help you win both. Your life depends on both if your going to carry. You may win your life but lose your freedom without this knowledge.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

The court battle is not easy. You might as well take that written law n wipe your
Almost Anything can be disputed in court, wills,written contracts ,and Yes even the law. Of course it would be advisable to know your laws.
BUT DON'T trust the law , just because it's written in black n white.
You better have good judgement before you kill a man.


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## faststang90 (Apr 8, 2013)

i live in texas. the chl teacher told us this.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Okay, so now that I know your state, here goes. First your post;

"when i got my conceled handgun license. l was told to try and leave first. if you are leaving and they are coming after you and you have already told them you have a conceled handgun license. you tell them to stop if they dont then you use your gun. i was told to make it only a one person story and always say you was in fear of your life. we was told never to pull your gun unless you use it.
is that better steve and yes you must be old lol."

Texas is not a duty to retreat state so as long as you have a legal right to be where you are, you do not have to retreat in the face of imminent danger. What your instructor may have meant was that it is prudent to retreat if you can do so safely because by retreating, you may very well avoid a confrontation. Also, just because you're armed is no guarantee you are going to come out the winner... you could lose and in a gun fight that is know as a bad thing.

I would never tell someone I have a concealed carry permit/license who is coming at me in a threatening manner because if they have not seen the gun and you do this, now they know you're armed and they might act differently. Yes, most likely they are going to cease their advance on you but again, there are no guarantees. They may pull a gun and shoot you whereas they may otherwise not have done this. It really should depend upon the nature of the imminent assault.

As for when to use your firearm, I STRONGLY advise seeking valid and concrete information on this in your area. Don't simply rely on what someone told you or you have read on some webpage or forum. The general rule of thumb is if you are in imminent or immediate danger of serious bodily harm or worse. In my state it is, if you hold a good faith believe, based upon objective facts, that you are in imminent danger of serious bodily harm [or death], you may use deadly force. This can vary by states. The rest, you are going to have to find out for yourself.

*"i was told to make it only a one person story..."*
This implies that you have the intent to kill your attacker, not just stop him. NEVER adhere to this and especially NEVER tell the police or an attorney this. Your thrust is to stop the attack. Whether or not the BG dies is not a concern.

*"and always say you was in fear of your life"*
Say virtually nothing to the police and consult with an attorney. And NEVER lie. When you lie, you WILL forget what you told people. Again, get training in the legal use of deadly force in your state.

*"we was told never to pull your gun unless you use it."*
I would clean this up a little to read, "We were told to never pull a gun unless we were prepared to use it." Your text implies that you are going to shoot, regardless of what happens when you pull your firearm. Suppose you do pull and the BG stops and either freezes or takes off running away. Now the thread has ended so you do not have any justification to open fire. However if you do pull it, you should be prepared to use it if needed.

Hope this helps and please do get some training on the legal aspects of the use of deadly force in your state.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

These instructors are making a pay check, citing state law.
They are not to be relied upon when educating the class on the use of deadly force.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

All reputable CCW/CPL classes will use an attorney or LEO to teach the legal portion regarding Deadly Force. This does not always mean they are well versed and knowledgeable on the subject. Every gun owner should take it upon themselves to gain information in their state or others if you intend to carry there.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> All reputable CCW/CPL classes will use an attorney or LEO to teach the legal portion regarding Deadly Force. This does not always mean they are well versed and knowledgeable on the subject. Every gun owner should take it upon themselves to gain information in their state or others if you intend to carry there.


Very true... all of it.

Three of the seminars I attended on the use of deadly force were conducted by an attorney with experience in this arena. He even carries. He is well know among those in the gun culture in Virginia. The other seminar was more along the line of an advanced course in carrying with time spent on the practical side of carrying and using your firearm. The instructor was a former LEO and was quite good and also known in gun culture circles in my state.

There is so much claptrap, hearsay, old wives tales, and down right misinformation out there when it comes to using a firearm in one's defense. It never ceases to amaze me what I hear sometimes coming out of peoples' mouths when discussing this topic... in person and on forums. Fools are targets for opportunists and this subject area is no exception.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> Very true... all of it.
> 
> Three of the seminars I attended on the use of deadly force were conducted by an attorney with experience in this arena. He even carries. He is well know among those in the gun culture in Virginia. The other seminar was more along the line of an advanced course in carrying with time spent on the practical side of carrying and using your firearm. The instructor was a former LEO and was quite good and also known in gun culture circles in my state.
> 
> There is so much claptrap, hearsay, old wives tales, and down right misinformation out there when it comes to using a firearm in one's defense. It never ceases to amaze me what I hear sometimes coming out of peoples' mouths when discussing this topic... in person and one forums. Fools are targets for opportunists and this subject area is no exception.


I thought that if you read it somewhere on the inter-net, it had to be true? :watching:


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

paratrooper said:


> I thought that if you read it somewhere on the inter-net, it had to be true? :watching:


Well now that I think of it....

:smt024 :smt030


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## Trev1337 (Apr 21, 2013)

An old saying I like to go by is, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." A quote my chief always pounds into our heads. Of course I'm not telling anyone to "pop a cap" into every person you think is intruding in your home, but use discression is my advise. If it is an eminent threat, do what needs to be done. As everyone else says, a lawyer would be the best route to go just to make sure. but even if he/she tells you something, I sure as hell would rather shoot the son of a gun before letting them hurt my family or myself.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Trev1337 said:


> An old saying I like to go by is, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." A quote my chief always pounds into our heads. Of course I'm not telling anyone to "pop a cap" into every person you think is intruding in your home, but use discression is my advise. If it is an eminent threat, do what needs to be done. As everyone else says, a lawyer would be the best route to go just to make sure. but even if he/she tells you something, I sure as hell would rather shoot the son of a gun before letting them hurt my family or myself.


proper training is more then a four hour class and a conversation with an attorney. 
proper training also includes field experience.
An attorney would use that statement against your department chief, that he pounds into everyones head *"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."* 
He is almost saying shoot first, ask questions later. 
It might be construed as pre meditated.

The statement really does not have any training significance.


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## Trev1337 (Apr 21, 2013)

pic said:


> proper training is more then a four hour class and a conversation with an attorney.
> proper training also includes field experience.
> An attorney would use that statement against your department chief, that he pounds into everyones head *"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."*
> He is almost saying shoot first, ask questions later.
> ...


I think in the line of self defense, "shoot first, ask questions later" can be something that we police officers need to go by to a certain extent though.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Trev1337 said:


> An old saying I like to go by is, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." A quote my chief always pounds into our heads. Of course I'm not telling anyone to "pop a cap" into every person you think is intruding in your home, but use discression is my advise. If it is an eminent threat, do what needs to be done. As everyone else says, a lawyer would be the best route to go just to make sure. but even if he/she tells you something, I sure as hell would rather shoot the son of a gun before letting them hurt my family or myself.


The test for warranted use of deadly force in my state is (paraphrased) this;

If you hold a good faith belief, based upon an objective set of facts, that you are in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, or worse, you may use whatever force is needed, up to and including deadly force, to repel the attack.

It doesn't matter where you are as long as you have a legal right to be where you are. And we are not a "duty to retreat" state. There are five felonies for which the use of deadly force is an option: rape, robbery, burglary, arson, and murder.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> proper training is more then a four hour class and a conversation with an attorney.
> proper training also includes field experience.
> An attorney would use that statement against your department chief, that he pounds into everyones head *"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."*
> He is almost saying shoot first, ask questions later.
> ...


Here in Virginia, we have what is known as an "affirmative defense". This pretty much negates any attempts by a prosecutor to prove that your actions were negligent or were the result of modifications you made to your gun (the trigger, for example). In an affirmative defense, you admit that you shot your assailant and under the same set of circumstances, you would do so again. Hard to show that a lighter trigger was the culprit when you tell the court that you deliberately shot Mr. Jones.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Trev1337 said:


> I think in the line of self defense, "shoot first, ask questions later" can be something that we police officers need to go by to a certain extent though.


Trev, my understanding is your a 19 yr old Auxillary officer... not a sworn police officer with powers of arrest. You need to understand that your not protected by the Dept like an actual police officer. I assume you went to a part-time citizens academy... not a full time academy since your not even old enough to purchase a handgun from an FFL dealer (in most states). Your level of training is not the same and you really need to understand this.

I'm only saying this because you need to understand the rights and protection (criminal/civil) offered by city/county/state extended to certified/sworn police officers does not always extend to auxiliary... at least in most of the country.

I can see your eager and you seem to be enthusiastic about being an auxiliary officer... that's great, just be safe and use sound judgement.

Good luck Trev.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I understand ,knowing the law is only part of the picture , I also understand the laws have differences from state to state.
I think we discussed this before. But an attorney in a court room can turn things around very quickly..
That black n white writing on paper can not be trusted. 
Remember one important fact. If you kill someone in self defense, and have to go to court. 
The states attorney is not representing the law abiding shooter that claims self defense.
Do not trust the court system . Do not trust the words written in black n white .


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

paratrooper said:


> I thought that if you read it somewhere on the inter-net, it had to be true? :watching:


:watching:

ditto


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh totally true if you read it on the internet!


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

"Trev, my understanding is your a 19 yr old Auxillary officer... not a sworn police officer with powers of arrest".

That depends.In FL you do have arrest powers and you have the majority of the Acadamy training.Truthfully you wouldn't want to.You're working for free,have a job,and if you make an arrest you now have to do the paperwork and take off work to go to court.That's technically,because you may be working under the full Officer's powers on the scene.If there is no full time Deputy with you,the desired outcome would be detainment until one arrived.That's an excellent policy because I saw some real doosies that were a bit on the scary side to be working,let alone carrying.

Relying on memory here,I think the Auxillary is basically the same as Corrections,and both fall short of full by around 100hours?I believe that 100 hours is somewhere at 1/5 or so of the whole time but I can't remember the exact numbers.I'm not sure if Aux and Corrections are the same exact thing but I would say no.I would think between the 2 the amount of certain sections being cut short would be different.I think the only section that gets full time is the range but there could be more,I do recall traffic and law being short on AUX and don't see Corrections even needing traffic.


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