# Negligent discharge of firearm.



## jnlbates (Oct 10, 2017)

My husband and I both have a fairly large amount of firearms. He has a Ruger blackhack .45 LC. He had pulled it out of his holster in the dining room and had it in his hands a good 5 seconds. His finger was nowhere near the trigger. We were talking and I was looking right at him when the gun discharged. It missed me by a few inches, I was covered in wood shaving from where it hit the floor. I would be happy to post a photo of the damage to my floor. Needless to say I damn near had a heart attack. So I have been researching single action revolvers having negligent discharge and I am finding very little information. Any advice on how this happened would be welcomed.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

If the hammer is at rest, it is virtually impossible for something like this to happen. And with all Ruger revolvers since 1973 (I believe that was the year), they have had a transfer safety bar installed. This prevents accidental discharges if the gun is dropped on its hammer over a loaded cylinder chamber. You have to pull the trigger to lower that bar in order to fire the weapon.

So what you're describing must be missing some information. These guns just don't go off without help of some kind. At the very least, the hammer would have to have been cocked. Try to recall as much about the condition and state of the gun and your husband's handling of it and report that so that maybe we can help you further.


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## jnlbates (Oct 10, 2017)

He had just pulled it from his holster, the hammer was at rest it was not pulled back. He was holding it and had it turned on its side looking at the screws to change the pistol grips. We had just loaded it with a new ammunition we buy from a local place who makes their own. Again his fingers were nowhere near the trigger. That is all of the information.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Unless the Ruger is a very old model that doesn't have a transfer bar, it is impossible. Even if it IS an older model, the hammer would have to have received an impact & there would have to be a live round under the hammer for the gun to fire; that's why you only load five rounds in such guns & leave the chamber under the hammer empty; otherwise the firing pin is resting on the primer.
Please watch this; very clear & informative video:


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

The ONLY POSSIBLE explanation I can think of - the hammer was NOT completely down. Maybe it was held in place by some burr in the frame or moving parts. And, the hammer got pulled partially back at some point. And then the hammer dropped at some point.

But, this is VERY doubtful, but the only possible explanation. If one assumes the trigger was not pulled. Someone else talked about a gun discharging on its own on The High Road gun forum recently. There was lots of discussion about how it would be impossible for a DA/SA gun to self discharge when in DA mode. I realize your gun is a revolver, but this was one possible scenario someone came up with. Likely? Not really. 

99% of the time, these "discharges" are found to actually be the result of a trigger pull - whether accidental or some other object hitting the trigger.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

I don't know OP, sounds like a mystery to me. Welcome to the forum.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

If it was a Colt SAA, the most notorious for single action firing mis-haps, it STILL would have to be subject to a blow to the hammer to fire. With the hammer down a SA cannot just go off by itself from just holding it. Something called physics?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Shipwreck said:


> The ONLY POSSIBLE explanation I can think of - the hammer was NOT completely down. Maybe it was held in place by some burr in the frame or moving parts. And, the hammer got pulled partially back at some point. And then the hammer dropped at some point.
> 
> But, this is VERY doubtful, but the only possible explanation. If one assumes the trigger was not pulled. Someone else talked about a gun discharging on its own on The High Road gun forum recently. There was lots of discussion about how it would be impossible for a DA/SA gun to self discharge when in DA mode. I realize your gun is a revolver, but this was one possible scenario someone came up with. Likely? Not really.
> 
> 99% of the time, these "discharges" are found to actually be the result of a trigger pull - whether accidental or some other object hitting the trigger.


Her husband's gun is single action.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

The husband had just loaded the gun, and was preparing to replace the Grips? What?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

SouthernBoy said:


> Her husband's gun is single action.


I know. But still same concept. Maybe the hammer was stuck 1/2 way. Like a 1/2 cock position, and then dropped. Otherwise, it is impossible


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

The early (three screw models) of the Blackhawk before 1973 still operated the same way as the Colt, in that the hammer was half

-cocked to load and unload and that the firearm was not safe to carry with all six chambers loaded due to the hammer resting 

upon the sixth chamber. How old is this Ruger blackhawk?

That was a close one, glad nobody was hurt. Is the revolver used for home or general defense?


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## LlamaFan (Oct 11, 2017)

One of my written gun rules for our house: NEVER have live ammunition in the room when working on a gun. Your husband violated that rule.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

jnlbates said:


> He had just pulled it from his holster, the hammer was at rest it was not pulled back. He was holding it and had it turned on its side looking at the screws to change the pistol grips. We had just loaded it with a new ammunition we buy from a local place who makes their own. Again his fingers were nowhere near the trigger. That is all of the information.


Try as I may I just cannot imagine how something like this could have happened, given the information you have offered. The only way a single action revolver is going to discharge with the hammer at rest and no one handling it is a round that is "cooking off". This means that the firing pin contacted the primer under force and because the primer was deeply seated, it did not initiate the burning of the powder in the case. Barring that, I just cannot come up with any sort of explanation which would describe how this discharge took place, based upon what we have been told. In essence, a series of events must take place before a cartridge can be fired. I don't see any of those events in what you have described.

Is there anything possibly missing in all of this?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

LlamaFan said:


> One of my written gun rules for our house: NEVER have live ammunition in the room when working on a gun. Your husband violated that rule.


I do have ammunition present when working on firearms in my basement but I also have a specific place were I do this downstairs. Determining the state of a firearm is a very simple task. Unfortunately, many tend to get a bit cavalier about it and that opens the door to potential accidents which can culminate in something disastrous. When I am working on or cleaning my guns, I have a place where I go that is quiet and where I am not bothered by noises or such. I want my full focus on what I am doing.


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## TheReaper (Nov 14, 2008)

I've owned 44mag Ruger SA revolvers for 45 years and never heard of anything close to what the OP is saying happened. You
can beat the bumper off of a F-250 pickup with the hammer while it's resting on a round with the NMSB in my avatar and it will not
discharge. There was some unseen human error in the OP's case.


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## LlamaFan (Oct 11, 2017)

Some of the original Ruger Single Six revolvers could be fired accidentally if the hammer was at half-cock position. It could be driven off that stop with a sharp blow (say by dropping) and fire a round. Ruger recalled them and upgraded them. As someone noted earlier, if the revolver was not one of those early-type designs, it cannot fire even if there is a round under the hammer because of the safety bar, which only moves when the trigger is pulled.

I don't know if other revolver manufacturers had or have similar issues, but personally I frown on handling a knowingly loaded weapon unless at a range. Loaded guns at home should be locked up and left alone unless needed for personal defense. This could have had a tragic ending; thankfully it did not. I hope it was a learning experience for those involved.

Frankly, those who wave guns around and play John Wayne with them are not being responsible gun owners.


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## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

I go along with the "something is missing from the story" comment.


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

jnlbates said:


> My husband and I both have a fairly large amount of firearms. He has a Ruger blackhack .45 LC. He had pulled it out of his holster in the dining room and had it in his hands a good 5 seconds. His finger was nowhere near the trigger. We were talking and I was looking right at him when the gun discharged. It missed me by a few inches, I was covered in wood shaving from where it hit the floor. I would be happy to post a photo of the damage to my floor. Needless to say I damn near had a heart attack. So I have been researching single action revolvers having negligent discharge and I am finding very little information. Any advice on how this happened would be welcomed.


A single action pistol cannot fire unless the hammer has been pulled back....did he have the gun cocked by having the hammer back? Otherwise this makes no sense at all. If the hammer were back, handling it other that pointing at a target isn't a very safe thing to do IMHO.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

papersniper said:


> A single action pistol cannot fire unless the hammer has been pulled back....did he have the gun cocked by having the hammer back? Otherwise this makes no sense at all. If the hammer were back, handling it other that pointing at a target isn't a very safe thing to do IMHO.


papersniper, you need to go back over the posts. Indeed, a pre 1973 Blackhawk(Blackhawks were first produced in the 1950's) and most very early SA revolvers could fire with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Furthermore, a previous post stated there was a recall on some early Blackhawks that could come off half cock and fire on a loaded chamber.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Ya know, I've never been able to figure out why any gun manufacturer would make a revolver with six chambers but wasn't safe to load all six. Even way back then.
And, I just remembered something I read in an old book written by Jeff Cooper around 45 years ago. He talked about leaving the hammer of a single-action revolver down on an empty chamber, then he said something like, "That may have been important in the rough & tumble days of the old West, but it's not much of a safety issue now."
That was one of the few issues I disagreed with him on.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

win231 said:


> "That may have been important in the rough & tumble days of the old West, but it's not much of a safety issue now."
> That was one of the few issues I disagreed with him on.


I agree, I don't understand Jeff's statement either. If you were to drop the revolver on it's hammer, or somehow the hammer gets a sharp hit from behind, "Bang."


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

denner12 said:


> papersniper, you need to go back over the posts. Indeed, a pre 1973 Blackhawk(Blackhawks were first produced in the 1950's) and most very early SA revolvers could fire with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Furthermore, a previous post stated there was a recall on some early Blackhawks that could come off half cock and fire on a loaded chamber.


Not to be argumentative, but I believe a single action that is not cocked cannot discharge unless the trigger is pulled. I did not mean to discuss what might happen if the pistol were dropped, hit with a baseball bat, involved in an aircraft accident, etc. I maintain the simple <mis>-handling of that SA pistol would not have discharged under the scenario presented earlier <not cocked, finger off trigger>. Yes, basically anything is theoretically _possible_, but at some point the odds of that happening are infinitely small.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

papersniper said:


> Not to be argumentative, but I believe a single action that is not cocked cannot discharge unless the trigger is pulled. I did not mean to discuss what might happen if the pistol were dropped, hit with a baseball bat, involved in an aircraft accident, etc. I maintain the simple <mis>-handling of that SA pistol would not have discharged under the scenario presented earlier <not cocked, finger off trigger>. Yes, basically anything is theoretically _possible_, but at some point the odds of that happening are infinitely small.


You are mistaken. The chances are not small...unless the single action is a modern design. Scroll to 2.47 of the video.

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...t=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldHPNnsp-cs


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

I believe a few find the scenario presented by the original op to be missing some important details. We don't know whether it was a pre or post 1973 model. There was a very good reason why five chambers were loaded as opposed to six on pre 1973 or Colt SA revolvers and I don't think it was because they couldn't possibly fire unless the trigger was pulled.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

If the hammer was down and the trigger not touched, it was a miracle, plain and simple.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

Just keep your F'n finger off the dang trigger & don't point the gun at anything you don't want to destroy, Idiot!


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## Oldhand (Apr 4, 2017)

I have a three screw Ruger Blackhawk that has not been modified. Load one chamber skip one then load the rest, lower hammer on empty chamber. Still do not understand why the op would load the gun before taking off the grips.


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## AllenFromPa (Dec 4, 2017)

Maybe the OP'S husband was trying to get rid of her via accidental death,


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

> *A Free Safety Offer From Ruger Do you own an "Old Model" (pre-1973) Ruger Single-Six, Blackhawk,
> Super Blackhawk, or Bearcat single action revolver like these?*
> The patented Ruger Conversion Kit is an entirely new operating system for these revolvers. *It can help prevent accidental discharges caused by a drop or blow to the hammer if the user has failed to take the basic safety precaution of keeping the hammer down on an empty chamber. That's very important!*
> This mechanism can be factory-installed without any further alteration. The frame and other major parts will not be affected by this Conversion. The value of the gun will not be impaired, and we will return your original parts for collector's purposes.
> ...


Maybe that explains it.

I never owned one of those revolvers or know whether it has the firing pin fixed to the hammer like a Colt SAA or a floating firing pin? So I can only guess that the firing pin was resting on the primer and it didn't take much to set it off?

Obviously Ruger was aware of the possibility of an accidental discharge if those revolvers were loaded with six rounds. They now have transfer bars to prevent this.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

AllenFromPa said:


> Maybe the OP'S husband was trying to get rid of her via accidental death,


I sure hope not, but something seems amiss. Generally these sort of things can be explained relatively easily but this one remains an enigma?


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## AllenFromPa (Dec 4, 2017)

I hope not too. Hope she checks in and lets us know she is ok.


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## TheReaper (Nov 14, 2008)

Operator error, know matter how you look at it.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

His finger bumped the trigger! It ain't no mystery....it's just poor gun handling! Duh!


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

And.......you posted this stuff on the Forum! Jeesh!


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Blackhawkman said:


> And.......you posted this stuff on the Forum! Jeesh!


she posted on the forum most likely out of a concern. 
Her concern should be the bullshit story her husband gave her, lol.
Those large spurred hammers in single action are fun to play with,,,, manipulating the trigger n hammer with great confidence.
Might be a case of overconfidence combined with a little slippage, lol.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

pic said:


> she posted on the forum most likely out of a concern.
> Her concern should be the bullshit story her husband gave her, lol.
> Those large spurred hammers in single action are fun to play with,,,, manipulating the trigger n hammer with great confidence.
> Might be a case of overconfidence combined with a little slippage, lol.


Slippage can cause a negligent discharge....


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## wildcatter (Feb 12, 2018)

The OP's husband was irresponsible,, period! You can make it as responsible in you own mind as you want and blame the revolver, but that is just ignorance to the design and responsible loading and use of these fine revolvers. I have owned em all in my over 63 years in this life, and responsible firearms handeling with respect to any Ruger Backhawk single action is required and knowing which one you own is mandatory to know how responsible handling is determined!

3 screw, or Old Model. This is the same as other single actions that do not use a "TRANSFER BAR STYLE FIRING PIN", in these revolvers pulling the hammer to the second notch (click) then it is in free spool and loading of one case,, skip a chamber,, load the next five,, take to full cock and lower the hammer all the way put's it on the empty chamber, it is the responsibility of the person loading it to assure it is, this the only responsible way to carry and holster the revolver responsibly! If this was done there is no way any round can be fired even if you beat the back of the hammer with a 6# sledge hammer,, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO FIRE under this responsible loading procedure as nothing but air is under the firing pin and in line with the barrel! If you have a round under the hammer on these revolvers is it always in the firing position, even if using the half cock safety

New Model, Post 1973 Blackhawks, the most common 45 colt chambered Balckhawk available! load six with the hammer in the rested (hammer down) position. with these revolvers they use a transfer bar that has to be raised up, covering the firing pin to be ompacted by the drop of the hammer to hit the firing pin. If the trigger is not pulled to the rearward position, their is no way for the hamer to hit the transfer bar, as the when the triger is moved forward it also pulls the transfer bar down out of the way of the firing pin. There is no way possible for the hammer to contact the firing pin with the trigger forward, it is impossible, the trigger itself must be pulled fully to the rear firing position for the tranfer bar to be in contact with the firing pin. PERIOD! 

on the new model trigger fully rested forward, a loaded round under the firing pin, you can hit the hammer with anything you want a club, a hammer, a tire iron whatever, and you cannot contact the firing pin, you can pull the trigger back until the hammer starts to fall and hold it with your thumb, take your finger off the trigger while holding the hammer back,, and if you drop the hammer without holding the trigger back the revolver can not fire, as the transfer bar has to be in the retracted position as the trigger is now forward!

This is the absolute physical facts of these two designs, and responsible loading of both, makes either one impossible to have an accidental discharge without user error! Those are the facts! As Clint once said,,, a man has to know his limitations, and if you don't use these two weapons as described, you have certainly over stepped your limitations using a single action revolver.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

wildcatter said:


> The OP's husband was irresponsible,, period! You can make it as responsible in you own mind as you want and blame the revolver, but that is just ignorance to the design and responsible loading and use of these fine revolvers. I have owned em all in my over 63 years in this life, and responsible firearms handeling with respect to any Ruger Backhawk single action is required and knowing which one you own is mandatory to know how responsible handling is determined!
> 
> 3 screw, or Old Model. This is the same as other single actions that do not use a "TRANSFER BAR STYLE FIRING PIN", in these revolvers pulling the hammer to the second notch (click) then it is in free spool and loading of one case,, skip a chamber,, load the next five,, take to full cock and lower the hammer all the way put's it on the empty chamber, it is the responsibility of the person loading it to assure it is, this the only responsible way to carry and holster the revolver responsibly! If this was done there is no way any round can be fired even if you beat the back of the hammer with a 6# sledge hammer,, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO FIRE under this responsible loading procedure as nothing but air is under the firing pin and in line with the barrel! If you have a round under the hammer on these revolvers is it always in the firing position, even if using the half cock safety
> 
> ...


Very well said and educational


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

wildcatter said:


> The OP's husband was irresponsible,, period! You can make it as responsible in you own mind as you want and blame the revolver, but that is just ignorance to the design and responsible loading and use of these fine revolvers. I have owned em all in my over 63 years in this life, and responsible firearms handeling with respect to any Ruger Backhawk single action is required and knowing which one you own is mandatory to know how responsible handling is determined!
> 
> 3 screw, or Old Model. This is the same as other single actions that do not use a "TRANSFER BAR STYLE FIRING PIN", in these revolvers pulling the hammer to the second notch (click) then it is in free spool and loading of one case,, skip a chamber,, *load the next five*,, take to full cock and lower the hammer all the way put's it on the empty chamber, it is the responsibility of the person loading it to assure it is, this the only responsible way to carry and holster the revolver responsibly! If this was done there is no way any round can be fired even if you beat the back of the hammer with a 6# sledge hammer,, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO FIRE under this responsible loading procedure as nothing but air is under the firing pin and in line with the barrel! If you have a round under the hammer on these revolvers is it always in the firing position, even if using the half cock safety
> 
> ...


I think you meant load the next *four*?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Given that she has never been back since 10-1 - I doubt we will ever know all the details from the original poster


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## Ratpacker (Mar 7, 2013)

I guess she and her hubby went back to " WESTWORLD".


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