# Universal 44-40 Round



## Viscomm

Thanks to the help provided from members of this forum I am no longer a novice to reloading and have been successful with calibers from .380ACP to 45ACP. Earlier this year I picked up a Ruger Vaquero with a 5-1/2" barrel chambered in 44-40. I had no trouble learning to reload this caliber. I use a 200 gr. Hunter's Supply LRNFP with 5.9 grs of Trail Boss, Lee's 4-die set with the final die adjusted for a medium crimp. The rounds are accurate and reasonably pleasant to shoot.

Just picked up a Rossi R92 carbine with a 20" barrel. After shooting it yesterday I was rather underwhelmed. The reloads did not seem very exciting to shoot. I know that the 44-40 concept was for a round that cowboys could use in their revolvers and rifles. But am I going about this the right way? Would I be better off with a heavier bullet or maybe a change to some other powder? I "stock" Bullseye and 2400 in addition to Trail Boss. Or, am I just asking the impossible in trying to produce a universal round that will provide the snap in a rifle but not be too rough in the handgun.

Thanks in advance for you time and input.

Robert


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## hillman

Viscomm said:


> Thanks to the help provided from members of this forum I am no longer a novice to reloading and have been successful with calibers from .380ACP to 45ACP. Earlier this year I picked up a Ruger Vaquero with a 5-1/2" barrel chambered in 44-40. I had no trouble learning to reload this caliber. I use a 200 gr. Hunter's Supply LRNFP with 5.9 grs of Trail Boss, Lee's 4-die set with the final die adjusted for a medium crimp. The rounds are accurate and reasonably pleasant to shoot.
> 
> Just picked up a Rossi R92 carbine with a 20" barrel. After shooting it yesterday I was rather underwhelmed. The reloads did not seem very exciting to shoot. I know that the 44-40 concept was for a round that cowboys could use in their revolvers and rifles. But am I going about this the right way? Would I be better off with a heavier bullet or maybe a change to some other powder? I "stock" Bullseye and 2400 in addition to Trail Boss. Or, am I just asking the impossible in trying to produce a universal round that will provide the snap in a rifle but not be too rough in the handgun.
> 
> Thanks in advance for you time and input.
> 
> Robert


Chambering rifles for .44-40 was always a 'matter of convenience' for folks that wanted a little more accurate reach while carrying one cartridge for both guns. Erectile function was never a consideration.


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## TurboHonda

I had the same impression when shooting my Marlin 1894 in .357 Magnum. Handloads that offered lots of noise, fire, and concussion when fired from my S&W Model 19 seemed tame when fired from the carbine. I reasoned that the carbine was heavier and firmly planted and the barrel length offered a much more efficient burning process. 

For safety reasons, I've resisted the temptation to load separately for the two guns.


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## Viscomm

TurboHonda:

Thanks for the reply. I too am concerned about having two flavors floating around and the possibility of loading a mistake.

Winchester factory 44-40, 200 gr. "deer loads" are spec'd at 1190 fps. I never shot any of them. Has anyone else used these in a revolver? Unless I get a better suggestion, I am planning on loading a compromise round that is hotter than cowboy action (800 fps) and less than a deer round (1200 fps). Average would be obviously 1000 fps.

However, do you think my selection of bullet weight is appropriate? Would a heavier bullet shoot better in the Vaquero but, due to the length of the Rossi barrel, gather enough velocity? In terms of powder, I know that Bullseye generally has more snap than Trail Boss or Unique - but there is the case-filling issue although I routinely load 44 Spl with 5.0 grs of Bullseye and 240 gr. Berry plated FP without ignition problems.

Not trying to milk this thread. If you think the only answer is a load for a specific gun then so be it.

Robert


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## Steve M1911A1

The .44-40 was originally a black-powder cartridge. Eventually, it was used in both handguns and rifles..._but the load was always the same_. You just can't stuff more black powder into a case than it will ordinarily hold.

In a rifle, the black-powder .44-40 presented a bit more velocity than it did from a pistol, since the longer barrel allowed all of the powder charge to burn before the bullet left its muzzle. And since the rifle was both heavier and held against a solid shoulder by two hands, the cartridge seemed to recoil less. But except for a slight advantage in velocity and in accuracy, the forces involved were always the same.

I suggest that a volume-measured propellant that can be allowed to fill the entire case will be the only _safe_ bet, for use in both rifle and pistol. I believe that Trail Boss does exactly that.
If you load separate, more powerful cartridges for the rifle, there will, someday, eventually, inevitably be a mix-up for which you may be very, very sorry. I don't think that it's worth the risk.

(My personal belief is that having a rifle and a pistol which use the same cartridge either short-changes the rifle, or overstresses the pistol and its shooter. Now that we are no longer limited to volume-loaded black powder, the utility of having a rifle and a pistol using the same cartridge is almost nil...except, of course, in SASS competition.)


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## hillman

"...the utility of having a rifle and a pistol using the same cartridge is almost nil..."

The rifle extends the _accurate_ range of the pistol cartridge, that's about the only advantage in having 2 guns and one cartridge. That statement even covers the magnum cartridges.


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## TurboHonda

Viscomm said:


> TurboHonda:
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I too am concerned about having two flavors floating around and the possibility of loading a mistake.
> 
> Winchester factory 44-40, 200 gr. "deer loads" are spec'd at 1190 fps. I never shot any of them. Has anyone else used these in a revolver? Unless I get a better suggestion, I am planning on loading a compromise round that is hotter than cowboy action (800 fps) and less than a deer round (1200 fps). Average would be obviously 1000 fps.
> 
> However, do you think my selection of bullet weight is appropriate? Would a heavier bullet shoot better in the Vaquero but, due to the length of the Rossi barrel, gather enough velocity? In terms of powder, I know that Bullseye generally has more snap than Trail Boss or Unique - but there is the case-filling issue although I routinely load 44 Spl with 5.0 grs of Bullseye and 240 gr. Berry plated FP without ignition problems.
> 
> Not trying to milk this thread. If you think the only answer is a load for a specific gun then so be it.
> 
> Robert


I found this in my Hornady 7th Edition Reloading manual on the 44-40 (pistol) page.

*We experienced difficulties in our load development with bullets heavier than 200 grains. Factory and fired cases have a strong cannelure , designed to keep the factory loaded 200 grain bullet from being pushed too deep. Heavier bullets caused this cannelure to bulge out, producing chambering problems. The 44-40 Winchester is at its best with 200 grain bullets. During our testing 2400 and IMR 4227 performed well with jacketed bullets.*

As to the question of powder, I don't favor using Bullseye in carbine length barrels. It's very fast burning and easy to ignite and I love it in most pistols.


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## Viscomm

Thanks very much to all who responded. As usual, it is great to have a resource like Handgunforum available.

I think I am going to stick with the 200 gr. bullet and bump the powder charge to 6.1 grs. of Trail Boss. There is ample room in the case. That's a touch above the midpoint between min and max and should give me around 800 fps with the handgun. This will save my wrist with the revolver and hopefully satisfy the fun-factor with the rifle. Plus I will stay within my indoor range's limitations. Santa is bringing me a Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt 5-1/2 for Christmas. I assume I will be likely following the same strategy when I get the companion carbine.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year shooting to all.

Robert


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## hillman

Merry Christmas & Happy 2015 right back at you.

The modern .45 Colt case doesn't have the pressure limitations the old balloon case had. The Blackhawk will handle loads at or near the listed maximums and it's heavy enough to save your wrist - unless you "limpwrist" it. I'm not checked out on available lever actions in .45 Colt, but the Henry - the Big Boy? - will handle the loadings too, and it has cachet.

Right now I can only do the handgun-rifle-cartridge combination in .44 Magnum/.44 Special, which isn't 'Cowboy'.


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## noylj

What exactly do you think you should be getting? No rifle firing a 200gn bullet at 1200 fps, at most, is going to be much of anything "exciting." You can load your rifle M92 up to 22,000 CUP (if Rossi says you can), but not necessarily your handgun—but that will only get you 1400 fps with Unique and a 205 gn bullet. 
IF you want more, get a .44 Mag revolver and carbine.


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## OldManMontgomery

*Good round with some problems*

I have a 'combination' set of single action revolver (Uberti Model P clone) and a Rossi (1892 clone) in .44 Winchester Central Fire.

I shot them in 'Cowboy shooting' so one load did for both. For a while I loaded Pyrodex CTG, full case. Then I cut back to a lowered charge of Pyrodex and filled up the 'rest' of the case with cornmeal. Then I loaded something in the Unique range, but same load for everything. It was close to the top end in the revolver and not so much in the carbine; but it shot accurately from the carbine and did all that was needed. Were I starting over, I'd probably go with a powder in the range between Unique and 2400; Pistol Powder sounds promising.

I checked my handy records and I don't seem to have any of my information for .44-40 handy. I'll have to find some of my old note books.

Sadly, the .44-40 case is somewhat 'flimsy'. I crunched more cases trying to seat a bullet than I lost to other factors.

The 200/205 grain bullet has always been the 'normal' bullet weight. I suppose a 180 grain bullet would possible go faster, but I'm not sure one would get much more in the way of usable horsepower from doing so. The lighter weight would lose velocity faster as well.

Just as a historical note, the .44 W.C.F. was first introduced in the 1873 lever rifle. It was first a rifle caliber. However, as the size was right, it was chambered in the Colt Model P revolver rather quickly thereafter.


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## SavvyJack

Viscomm said:


> I was rather underwhelmed. The reloads did not seem very exciting to shoot.


That is because the 44-40 now days has been neutered [The problem is chamber pressures, yeateryear vs today] from what it originally was.



> I know that the 44-40 concept was for a round that cowboys could use in their revolvers and rifles. But am I going about this the right way?


Yes and no....[The problem is chamber pressures, yeateryear vs today]....lets review a little history for a better understanding!!!



> Would I be better off with a heavier bullet or maybe a change to some other powder?


Yes, I will cover this "load" below but....

Well I see this post is over four years old but........

I always say the 44-40 can't be explained in a few sentences or even a few pagers but.....

To try and answer your questions we must go back and look at a little history....why it "once was" and why it "no longer ain't"!!!!

*Trying to replicate History...*
It is very hard to "replicate" the original charge of black powder along with the original (427098) type lead bullet and maintain original ballistics and stay below max chamber pressures. Those early original loads catapulted a lead projectile downrange at 1,245fps and chamber pressures stayed below 13,000cup/11,000psi (SAAMI), 15,000cup/15,954psi (CIP). The bullets were lubricated well enough to lob 30 shots 110 yards downrange and all hit inside a 4" circle without cleaning the barrel between shots (Doc Pardee 1875 Winchester catalog). It just didn't get much better than that. Even today shooters such as John Kort prove the ole' cartridge and it's original ballistics by consistently hitting steel javelina at 300 meters (but with using a scope). The purpose was to prove the rifle/cartridge, not the shooter's eye sight or shooting skills! Results from my gel testing days..._"75/1 bullets penetrated 27" of clear gel and expanded to .528"..."The handgun loads gave velocities from 941-963 fps at 10 ft., perforated and exited the 32" gel block"_...excerpts taken from an article by Ed Harris but I did the gel testing.

*Moving on up to modern factory/handload cartridges*...modern velocities are about 1,190fps, [neutered] still well plenty enough to knock down a whitetail but accuracy plummets in many cases out to and past 100 yards. In addition to many firearm's differences in barrel sizes, tolerances, projectile weights and other sizes piled up on top of a somewhat finicky to load thin-walled cartridge....the 44-40 has achieved a very unfair but understandable bad reputation.

When a person begins to understand all of these issues, learns to adapt and overcome, a whole new world will open up. The 44-40 is actually a very multifaceted cartridge. From shotshells, round ball "game getters", 180gr XTP coyote loads to 240gr deer loads...from 50 yards to 300 yard options....decisions on a load can be almost endless not to mention the fact that you are enjoying a classic rifle cartridge along with the firearms chambered for it. Most modern weapons cannot compete with that list. Let's don't forget the revolvers too.

*Now we get to the good stuff....*
Looking at Lyman's reloading manual #49 page 299, *(Double check my numbers)* Lyman lists several powders and charges for the 44-40. In particular, Lyman lists 2400 powder in use with the Speer 200gr JSHP bullet #4425. Lyman shows they use a 24" Universal receiver with 1:36" twist for these particular tests. Cases trimmed to 1.295 and an AOL of 1.600. Lyman's measurements (plus some of my misc. measurements) with Starline brass and, using QuickLoad...gives a bullet seating depth of .313" as well as the pressures noted below. Your mileage may vary.

Lyman Manual.... vs...QL *(Quickload)* Data (*Group II not for Colt SAA revolvers*) [I use these loads in my larger 44 magnum frame revolver BUT using a 44-40 cylinder....Uberti "Buckhorn"]

grains/powder/velocity/cup/QL psi CIP

Group I Rifles *(weak actions like the Winchester 73')* (Lyman lists ten rifles) ....._That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40_
16gr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=*Current Factory Velocities) Normal [neutered] Loads*

Group II Rifles *(strong actions like the Winchester 92/94 and Marlin 94)* (Lyman lists nine rifles) ....._That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40_
18gr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=*Original Historical Velocities) +P Loads* due to higher than max pressures
20gr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) *Factory "High Velocity" Replication) +P+ Loads* due to excessive high pressure

Lyman also lists *Unique and IMR4227* powders for Group II Rifles

*My Goals....*
Personally, I will not shoot anything in my Marlin with CIP estimated pressures over 26,000psi CIP, we all have our limitations, right? My first goal was to replicate the 1903, more yet...the 1910 "High Velocity" ballistics.... not to try and make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum as so I have been accused. I consider these HV loads as 44-40 "+P+" loads for those that like to use the "+P" status. My second goal was to share that my first goal is not needed to kill deer, but may highly improve accuracy out to 200-300 yards....again your mileage may very!

*Somewhat of a conclusion...*
Reputable writers have been using and publishing the +P type loads that replicate original 1,300fps velocities (but produce higher than black powder chamber pressures) in magazines and online articles for years.

For all the nay sayers, dudes, weekend range worriers and city slickers.... the loads are right there in the reloading manual!!

Not in Lyman's #49 but is in #47 is the *240gr lead bullet information, 23.5gr of Reloder 7 that produce 1,200fps at "Group I" rifle category pressures.* *[10%to 20% more "power" than original loads]* The same info is/was listed on Lee's 44-40 reloading 3-die-set pamphlet.

Although the modern 1,300 fps velocities replicate original velocities using both black powder and early smokeless powder, the modern pressures generated are above SAAMI/CIP max pressures. I call modern 1,300fps velocities +P loads because of the higher than standard pressures of the earlier black powder and smokeless powder ballistics. The 1,400fps-1,600fps step in velocities I call +P+ loads.

Again not trying to make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum.... simply just trying to get that projectile downrange accurately and maintain enough energy to knock down that whitetail The 44-40 is capable of distances further than 100 yards if the handloader does his homework.

HAPPY HUNTING!

CIP vs SAAMI Chamber Pressure Testing Methods
44-40 SAAMI Pressures, 13,000cup (page 21) and 11,000psi (page 33)
44-40 CIP Pressures, 15,000cup and 15,954psi

For tons of information, visit (to be edited....I think)


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## SavvyJack

With all that said I can try to compress a little information.

As far as rifle and a revolver as companions - Original black powder charges were more powerful and accurate than today's cartridge's ballistics can offer. This drops the revolver's performance down to pitiful......mainly "cowboy farts"

Even with the information I posted above, original performance can not be achieved and stay within safe chamber pressures for the standard Colt Single Action Army revolvers or replicas. Some guys, to include myself, will shoot 10gr of Unique in modern revolvers and replicas BUT don't on a regular bases. 7.9gr of Unique is safe [per Lyman] and will give approx 902fps in a 5 1/2" barrel [my results] but is well below original ballistics. Using a caseload of RL-7 and a 200gr lead bullet like the 427098 puts me in the ballpark of original velocities BUT pressures are estimated borderline max. The problem with slower burning rifle powders like RL-7, only about 56% of the powder is burned...the rest wasted but is needed to get those results. Economically is the reason most folks use pistol powders. I don't like the pressure spikes pistol powders produce and shy away from them as much as possible.

I could go on and on but I gave myself a headache.


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## retegret

Thanks Savvy Jack for the good info. I like 44-40 and load for my rifle and download for my pistol, but would like a backcountry carry revolver that would handle the rifle loads. It doesn't have to look like a cowboy pistol. Looking at S&W 544, it's a commemorative pistol, but can find in a price that I'd be willing to use. Am worried though that it has a 44mag barrel (.430) and the 44-40 bullets (.426) would be sloppy in it. Can't find any dimension data on it. Any recommendations on a pistol that is strong enough for higher velocity 44-40 rounds that is made for 44-40?


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## Steve M1911A1

Look for a _used_ pistol.
Colt's made a few fairly modern double-action revolvers in .44-40.
There's a write-up on one of them, by John Taffin, in the current (April 2018) issue of _Guns_ Magazine, pp. 18-19.


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## Blackhawkman

I load 44/40's using Unique and the 200 grain LSWC's. My loads work in my Colt SAA, 1892 Winchester & Pop's 1866 carbine. Tryin to stuff more Oomph in a 44/40 & an excellent round anyway? Like stuffin 5 lbs of "stuff" in a 3 pound bag!


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## SavvyJack

retegret said:


> Thanks Savvy Jack for the good info. I like 44-40 and load for my rifle and download for my pistol, but would like a backcountry carry revolver that would handle the rifle loads. It doesn't have to look like a cowboy pistol. Looking at S&W 544, it's a commemorative pistol, but can find in a price that I'd be willing to use. Am worried though that it has a 44mag barrel (.430) and the 44-40 bullets (.426) would be sloppy in it. Can't find any dimension data on it. Any recommendations on a pistol that is strong enough for higher velocity 44-40 rounds that is made for 44-40?


If the revolver is not offered in 44 Magnum, I would treat it kindly ;-) We know the 44 mag frame will handle the pressures BUT the key here is cylinder wall thickness. The SAA 44-40 cylinder wall is typically thinner than the 44 magnum BUT if the 44-40 cylinder wall for a magnum frame revolver is thicker than a normal SAA or clone cylinder, you will be okay with, for example, 10gr of Unique on a normal basis. I would not use such loads regularly but would use them with confidence for the occasional use in a firearm like the Colt New Frontier.

I have an Uberti Buckhorn 44 Magnum SAA with a 44-40 cylinder.








Buckhorn 44-40 Cylinder on left, Cattleman 44-40 cylinder on right








Buckhorn 44-40 Cylinder on left, Cattleman 44-40 cylinder on right

The .426 bullets should be fine in close but not worth a toot for distance shots.







1 7/8" groups @ 50 yards (not for weak action rifles or revolvers)
Marlin 1894CB 44-40


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## SavvyJack

For anyone interested in why the 44-40 has a bad reputation, I encourage you to learn it's history, how it was changed over the years, and how it can be loaded today. I hope it is okay to post this link. It is to my website, no money and is not a business.....just loaded with information about the 44-40.

Pace yourself, don't burn yourself out and lose interest in the 44-40!!!

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

Using the Nav Bar Links....

Home - Brings you here to the welcome and how to navigate page

Blog Posts - takes you to the blog post page were you will find many posts by a few reputable writers. You will also find a few posts by folks that just like to share experiences handloading, hunting and shooting this great cartridge.

History - Takes you all the way back to the year 1860 by 44WCF historian John Kort and gives a time frame from the advent of the cartridge, different changes to the cartridge and the standardized designation "44-40" as most of us refer to it today.

Modern Day - A two part series article by Ed Harris that explains a little history and the many many so called problems shooters can face that scare away the faint at heart or create frustrations for the determined. Explains why early ballistics are hard to replicate without an understanding of how powders, components and firearms have changed over time.

High Velocity - Explains the ever so controversial subject of high performance +P/+P+ cartridges manufactured by at least Winchester and Remington as well as Peters and maybe a few others. Also explains replications of such loads using modern components as well as the Chamber Pressures they create.

Frontier Six Shooter - Explains a little about the revolvers used as a companion to the rifles that chamber the same round as well as some Fast Draw skills used in our beloved tv and movie Westerns.

Hunting Loads - One of my favorite subjects. Inside there are blog posts featuring hunting experiences using this cartridge. Creating a purposeful load for a specific situation. Anything from shotshells, round balls, 140gr small game rounds to 240gr larger game rounds as well as long distance accuracy vs short distance power loads.

Contributors - A brief description of a few of the contributors like Ed Harris and John Kort. It was the knowledge that these two have that pushed me to gather, somewhat condense and place into one location all I can so one does not have to beat their heads searching for countless weeks for information. Understanding the Myths vs Truth about this cartridge.

Contact Information - feel free to contact me!! Facebook, email or even by phone.

SJ


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## SavvyJack

THIS JUST IN!!!!!

Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40

Don't let the name fool you!!!!

Today I noticed that back in December 2017, Buffalo Bore manufacture and is offering what they call a "Heavy" 44-40 cartridge available in two and soon to be three bullets/weights and designs. These loads are manufactured *STAY WITHIN the max pressures of 13,000cup*. That makes these loads *safe for Group I rifles* like the Winchester 73' 66', their replica counterparts and all "safe to shoot" revolvers (originals, replicas etc). Once I get a chance to test a batch, I will post the results. I am very excited to test these loads. This is what I have been waiting for!!! This ammunition replicates early original black powder ballistics using modern smokeless powder and staying within SAAMI's 13,000cup pressures.


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## SavvyJack

Yesterdays range report using the Buffalo Bore ammunition.

The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.

Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest








#177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. *975fps* with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77
#178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. *1,055fps* with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41
#179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. *1,436fps*, ES 48, 1/34' to 3 3/4" Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP
#180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. *1,500fps*, ES 45, 2" Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI
*#181 - Buffalo Bore 200gr Hard cast/10.gr of something, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI*
#182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. *1,382fps*, ES 53, *1 3/4"* Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI

It is really nice to finally see factory loaded ammunition that is accurate out to 100 yards and replicates original 1870s velocities at 1870s pressures proving that the Winchester factory ammunition has been neutered for nearly 63 years.


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