# Democrat=Socialism=Slavery



## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

*Contrast the following quotes with each other. Makes one wonder if the democrats should have the donkey as their mascot when the hammer and sickle would be more appropriate.*
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_"The United States can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."_
Bill Clinton

_"To renounce liberty is to renounce being a man, to surrender the rights of humanity and even its duties. For he who renounces everything no indemnity is possible. Such a renunciation is incompatible with man's nature; to remove all liberty from his will is to remove all morality from his acts."_

Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712 - 1778)
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_"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."_
Hillary Clinton

_"History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy." _
Karl Marx (Letter to His Father) 
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_"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe."
_ Diane Feinstein

_"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."_
Heinrich Himmler

_"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so."_

Adolph Hitler

_"Deep concerns have been raised about his record on gun control. He has
called James Brady the leading enemy of responsible gun owners. Senator
Ashcroft is so far out of the mainstream that he has said citizens need
to be armed in order to protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

Our government, tyrannical? In fact, he relies on an extreme reading of
the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment to the Constitution to oppose virtually all gun control laws."_

Senator Ted Kennedy (during confirmation hearings for John Ashcroft for Attorney, January 16, 2001)
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"A system of licensing and registration, is the perfect device to deny gun
ownership to the bourgeoisie."_

Vladimir Lenin

_"We're here to tell the NRA their nightmare is true! We're going to hammer guns on the anvil of relentless legislative strategy. We're going to beat guns into submission!"_

Charles Schumer
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"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We wouldn't let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?"_

Joseph Stalin

_"Every good communist should know that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

"War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party."

"After the enemies with guns have been wiped out, there will still be enemies without guns; they are bound to struggle desperately against us, and we must never regard these enemies lightly."_

Mao Zedong (Chairman of the Communist Party of China In office 1945 - 1976)

_"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." _
Benjamin Franklin (Nov 11 1755, from the Pennsylvania Assembly's reply to the Governor of Pennsylvania.)

_"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." _
Thomas Jefferson's ("Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764.)

_"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."_ (3 Elliot, Debates at 380)
George Mason

_"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."_
Noah Webster (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

_"A free people ought to be armed." _(Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)
George Washington

_"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."_ (T. Jefferson papers, 334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)
Thomas Jefferson

_"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."_
James Madison (Federalist Paper #46)

_"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."_
Patrick Henry

_ "This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty&#8230; The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."_
St. George Tucker
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"...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."_
Thomas Paine

_"But now whoever has a purse or a bag, must take it and whoever does not have a sword must sell his cloak and buy one."_ 
Jesus (Luke 22:36)

_"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed."_ (Exodus 22:2)

_"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe."_ (Luke 11:21) (Note, the text later states that a stronger or better armed criminal could overpower a weaker or poorly armed victim, so get a 1911 .45 ACP!)


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## JimmySays (Jun 8, 2007)

Excellent post Tony. I will be borrowing a few of your quotes for the left wingers. :smt023


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## Alaskan_Viking (Jun 13, 2006)

I noticed me sig in there somewhere.:smt1099


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## kansas_plainsman (May 9, 2006)

Thanks for the post. Needed to be said.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't really see the connection to socialism, which is just an economic system (if a lousy one). Several socialist countries have relatively liberal gun laws, like Israel and Switzerland and some Scandinavian nations. And many socialist nations - even those with strict gun control - have a free press, free elections, religious freedom, etc. Not that I'd want to live in any of them in preference to America, of course.

Authoritarians aren't necessarily socialists, or vice versa.

I have donned my Nomex underwear. :mrgreen:


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Well mike if you cant see the connection between socialism and the dem. party I would tend to believe you are a democrat and dont WANT to see the way that party is headed (and not at a snails pace either.)They are rapidly sending this country down the toilet of socialism and I for one find it disturbing that they seem to be doing it "almost" unchallenged by the people who want to remain free.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

scooter said:


> Well mike if you cant see the connection between socialism and the dem. party I would tend to believe you are a democrat and dont WANT to see the way that party is headed (and not at a snails pace either.)They are rapidly sending this country down the toilet of socialism and I for one find it disturbing that they seem to be doing it "almost" unchallenged by the people who want to remain free.


Oh, I see the connection between the Democrats and socialism. Some people think I am a Democrat because I am critical of the GOP and do not march in blind lockstep with Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter, but I am actually a libertarian-leaning conservative. I am currently a card-carrying Republican, though I may re-register as an independent. I could point out a _very_ long list of liberty-destroying things that the GOP has enacted or supported, as well.

What I do not see is a necessary connection between socialism and gun control, since I cited several socialist countries with fairly good gun laws. I also do not see the necessary connection between socialism and slavery, since there are many socialist countries with a free press, free elections, religious freedom, etc.

I do not like socialism as an economic system, since it is incompatible with individual economic liberty and rewards incompetence. However, we should not pretend that every nation with a socialist economy is an authoritarian dictatorship like Venezuela. In some ways, Europeans have more liberty than we do, despite their socialist economies.


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

Others can better clarify what I am trying to say so here is an article by Larry Pratt that may help on this subject.

Who's Larry Pratt? Look here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Pratt
www.gunowners.org
Jun 2003
Gun Control Is Socialist
by
Larry Pratt

As columnist Paul Craig Roberts has put it, "Law, once a shield of the innocent, is now a weapon in the hands of government."

Roberts is referring to a long and dangerous trend to expand the concept of crime to actions and non-actions in which no individual is harmed or threatened with harm. In our time one can be convicted of a felony and put in jail for killing a turtle, chopping down a tree, draining a swamp, polluting a body of water, and generally not doing everything that some bureaucrat says you have to do.

When we study socialist countries -- be they Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or too many others -- we find a concept in the law called "crimes against the state." These are also sometimes called crimes against the people. In earlier days, they might have been called crimes against the king's peace. Biblically and constitutionally, crimes are against individuals and should result in capital punishment, restitution or acquittal. Non-criminal damages should lead to restitution. In the 17th and 18th centuries, this was how the criminal justice system operated in America.

Add to these crimes against the state that of possessing a prohibited object, specifically a firearm. Several local jurisdictions in the U.S. have banned a wide range of guns, and the federal government has banned a bunch as well. One need not commit a crime to risk being sent to jail for possessing a combination of metal, wood, and plastic parts.

What our founders required by law -- carrying guns -- is now illegal in many jurisdictions. And in all but Vermont and Alaska, permission is needed to exercise the "right" to bear a concealed firearm.

To the extent that the United States has imposed gun controls on a population "protected" by our Bill of Rights, we have a measure of how socialist our country has become. Our government was founded on the idea that individuals have God-given rights that need to be protected from that same government. Furthermore, government was seen as having no rights, but only a few well-defined duties. Socialism requires the reversal of our founding premises.

In Joyce Lee Malcom's study of Guns and Violence: The English Experience we find the record of how gun control came to England. It began to get very restrictive following World War II. Now that most guns have been confiscated (all legal guns were registered long ago), England is roaring into the socialist pit.

(Listen to my interview with Professor Malcolm about her book on the GOA website. Go to http://gunowners.org/radio.htm and click on Previous Episodes.)

Margaret Thatcher sold off many government-owned industries when she was Prime Minister, but as we can see in the U.S., socialism through regulation can be just as stultifying as socialism in which the government owns the productive sector. Regulatory socialism was the Nazi model, proving that nominal private ownership does not prevent control from the center.

England is moving to crush other personal freedoms now that gun ownership has been virtually eliminated. Prime Minister Tony Blair has proposed restricting jury trials, eliminating the prohibition on double jeopardy and most ominously, proposing that an anonymous complaint be enough to put somebody in jail because he is deemed a danger to himself or the community.

Worse still, self-defense -- even without a gun -- is penalized. Everything else is monopolized in socialist England, so it is no surprise that self-defense becomes a monopoly of the state.

At the core of the Christian common law, the people are understood to be the owners of the law. Socialism considers law (and everything else) to belong to the government or to be controlled by it. The police are under the control of whoever owns the law.

Consider who are the most ardent gun control advocates in America. Senators Charles Schumer, Hillary Clinton and Diane Finestein are among the most eager to ban guns, and they are among the most socialist of our national politicians.

In the House, a dedicated opponent of firearms ownership and self-defense is Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, an avowed socialist. This can be said because she is a member of the House Progressive Caucus, which is affiliated with the Democratic Socialists of America, which is affiliated with Socialist International.

Socialism is based on the arrogant assumption that there are a few (elected or in power by force) who are uniquely suited to decide all issues of life. Folks who think like that are hardly likely to make an exception for their subjects to take personal responsibility for their own defense.

As a rule, the more socialist the politicians, the more they want to restrict gun ownership to those who protect politicians -- whether that be law enforcement agencies or private security guards (such as the NY City armed detective who travels as an armed guard for Sen. Schumer). Law enforcement is in place largely to tell the subjects of the socialists to obey the regulations of the regime or risk being put in jail.

Socialists do not like bad attitudes among their subjects, as we saw at Ruby Ridge and Waco, or as we saw in Chicago when Secret Service officers threatened a woman who expressed her disgust with Bill Clinton.

Socialists have an "us versus them" view of society. They are angry and feel threatened when they hear criticism of their policies. Did you see Sen. Clinton screaming at the top of her lungs when some of her subjects disagreed with her position on the Iraq war? As one wag quipped, he thought she was talking to Bill when she first heard her.

In any case, a government that sports a "bad attitude" combined with the belief that one is everyone else's Big Brother will result in a socialist crusade against guns.

Fight socialism. Buy a gun.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Mr. Pratt's essay is interesting, but I think he is misusing the word "socialism." He is really talking about authoritarianism, which comes in many more forms than socialism.

Some definitions of "socialism" from a few sources:

* (_Dictionary.com_) A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

* (_American Heritage Dictionary_) Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

* (_WordNet_) A political theory advocating state ownership of industry.

I didn't bring my Oxford dictionary to Afghanistan, but I suspect it would have a similar definition.

By contrast, "authoritarianism" is defined by these same sources as:

* Favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom: authoritarian principles; authoritarian attitudes.

* Of or pertaining to a governmental or political system, principle, or practice in which individual freedom is held as completely subordinate to the power or authority of the state, centered either in one person or a small group that is not constitutionally accountable to the people.

* Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom.

It's a semantic argument, obviously, but precision in communication is important. Railing against "socialism" when we actually mean "authoritarianism" just makes us look like we don't understand the commonly-accepted definitions of the words we're using.

Mr. Pratt makes the usual appeal-to-authority argument (about God-given rights) that is an utter failure in the modern world. As most of the world - and America with it - moves away from the influence of religion, the concept of God-given rights will have less and less sway in arguments. This is basically an "it's so because God says it is" argument, and has zero credibility with people who are irreligious or lean toward scientific explanations of human relationships.

Anyway, Mr. Pratt's essay, while ably documenting the British experience with gun control, does not address at all other real-world examples of socialist countries with fairly reasonable gun control laws. Nor does he address at all the fact that the citizens of many socialist nations - even those with strict gun control - enjoy more liberty in some spheres than do Americans. In most of Europe, I can smoke in a restaurant. In Germany, I can drive pretty much as fast as I want on the _Autobahn_. In Amsterdam, I can ingest various drugs that are banned in America. In most Scandinavian countries, I can marry anyone I want, regardless of gender. In most of the rest of the world, I can drink when I am 18.

These are just some examples off the top of my head. Now, some of us may not like these particular liberties, but they nonetheless show that a socialist economy does not necessarily lead to a complete abridgment of personal liberty, as Mr. Pratt's essay claims. And of course the citizens of the above nations may not like our liberty to own and carry guns.

Once again, I am a proponent of _laissez-faire_ capitalism, and opposed to socialism. But I am also a proponent of precise communication and recognition of reality.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

So you think he is misusing "socialism" and it is therefore FACT. You win , We should quit!
Everyone on the entire Fn planet is deluded and mis-informed/stupid except for Mike Barham. 
This is my last post here and last visit. I have had enough of Barhams condescending attitude and blatant arrogance to last me a fucking lifetime. 
Good luck Ya'll:smt023


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## Alaskan_Viking (Jun 13, 2006)

Scooter please don't leave because of something so inconsequential. Mike isn't a Commie pinko, or somekind of a forum bully, he's just very particular and a little rough around the edges sometimes...


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

scooter said:


> So you think he is misusing "socialism" and it is therefore FACT. You win , We should quit!
> Everyone on the entire Fn planet is deluded and mis-informed/stupid except for Mike Barham.
> This is my last post here and last visit. I have had enough of Barhams condescending attitude and blatant arrogance to last me a fucking lifetime.
> Good luck Ya'll:smt023


Wow. I thought the whole point of discussion forums was debate. What a dull world it would be if we all agreed on everything. But I guess if all one has are curses and insults, one doesn't have much to contribute to a debate anyway.

I don't see where I called anyone stupid or deluded. I just cited the dictionary and stated some opinions about the nature of liberty. If anyone dislikes my debating style, well, they're certainly not obligated to read my posts.


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## stormbringerr (May 22, 2007)

way to go again, barham. i don't want to read your posts either, but i cant put you on my ignore list. it wont let us put moderators on it.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm speechless... :smt092

I'm not going to deal with type of BS.

thread closed until further notice....


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