# Which Premium Production 1911???



## JeffWard

Looking to spend between $1000-$1400 for a Production, Factory Warrantee, "Premium" 1911...

Which and Why?

1. Springfield Armory Loaded Target Stainless ($1048.00 MSRP)
2. Kimber Gold Match Stainless II ($1427 MSRP)
3. Smith and Wesson SW1911 DK ($1359.00 MSRP)

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY:
SA Loaded Target Stainless
All Springfield Armory® Loaded 1911-A1 pistols include all the modern-day improvements that used to be performed only by custom gunsmiths. These features include: Precision-fit forged frames, slides and barrels, front and rear cocking serrations, flat, serrated mainspring housing, lowered and flared ejection port, delta lightweight hammer, loaded chamber indicator, titanium firing pin, Carry Bevel™ Treatment, ambidextrous thumb safety, High-Hand™ Beavertail Grip Safety, dovetail front sight, premium fixed or adjustable rear sights (many with tritium inserts), Torx™-head grip screws and lightweight, adjustable speed trigger.

Frame: Forged Stainless Steel, Matte Rounds with Polished Flats
Barrel: 5" Stainless Steel Match Grade Barrel and Bushing
Sights: Low Profile Adjustable Rear, Dovetail, Front, Target
Slide: Forged Stainless Steel, Matte Rounds with Polished Flats
Trigger: Long Aluminum Match Grade, 5 - 6 lbs.
Recoil System: 2 Piece Full Length Guide Rod
Magazines: 2 - 7 Round, Stainless Steel
Grips: Cocobolo Hardwood

KIMBER:
Model:	Kimber Gold Match Stainless II™ / .45 ACP 
•	Oversized 5-inch barrel fitted by hand in the Custom Shop for accuracy. 
•	Kimber's adjustable sight with positive and responsive steel-on-steel click adjustment dials. 
•	8-round magazine is standard with all Gold Match pistols. 
•	Premium Aluminum Trigger™ is standard on all Gold Match pistols. 
•	All Gold Match and Team Match pistols have an ambidextrous thumb safety. 
Frame Material: Stainless steel
Slide Material: Stainless steel
Finish: Highly polished stainless steel (flats)
Front serrations
Barrel: 5", Steel, match grade, Stainless steel match grade bushingSights: Kimber adjustable, Radius (inches): 6.8
Grips: Rosewood Double diamond
Trigger: Premium Aluminum Match Grade Factory setting (approx. lbs): 3.5 - 4.0
MSRP: $1427.00 Gold Match Stainless II™ .45 ACP

SMITH AND WESSON:
Model SW1911 DK Pistol $1359.00 MSRP
•	Oversized Magazine Well 
•	Ambidextrous Safety 
•	"Designed in Collaboration with Doug Koenig" 
•	5" 1911 Configuration 
•	Doug Koenig Hammer 
•	Flat Competition Speed Trigger 
•	Rosewood Grips with Smith & Wesson Silver Medallions 
•	External Extractor for Extremely High Reliability 
•	Adjustable Target Sights 
•	"Doug Koenig" Professional (DKP) Serial Number Run 
For the ultimate competitive shooting pistol, Smith & Wesson is introducing the Doug Koenig Professional Series Model SW1911, designed in collaboration with Doug Koenig, the world's most accurate pistol shooter. These models feature Doug Koenig's Speed Hammer, Flat Competition Speed Trigger with Overtravel Stop and a variety of other special features that deliver superior accuracy and performance.


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## JeffWard

Pics:


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## Mike Barham

I'd get the Smith, no question about it. Better rep for reliability, and more thoughtfully laid out for practical shooting. I especially like the trigger.

And I have a horrible weakness for 1911s with the _correct_ two-tone layout of blue over silver.


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## Baldy

I have two S&W's and they been very good guns right out of the box. I see no reason to change brands when I am getting the reliability that I am from the Smiths. I would get the DK model in a heart beat if I had the beans. Good luck with what ever you get Jeff.:smt1099


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## DogRanger

I just have a thing for Springfield,I think they are all good weapons.


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## JeffWard

Mike, (and others)

You like the external extractor? Why external over internal?

Just want to know opinions...

Jeff


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## Mike Barham

I don't have a preference so long as the gun works. For all the hype about reliability, externals are mainly just for ease of manufacture. I've seen good and bad examples of both.


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## bac1023

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't consider any of those real premium production 1911s. While all are quality guns, they are all lower end 1911s in the grand scheme of things. The Loaded is actually more of an entry level 1911, while the Smith and Kimber are above entry level, but still low end to low mid range 1911s. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I own many lower end 1911s that work great.


If you can spend up to 1400, go with a Springfield TRP, Kimber Gold Combat II, Colt Special Combat, or STI Trojan. They are premium production 1911s and can be had for $1400 or slightly less.

I think the best production 1911 is the Kimber Super Match II, but they cost $1700-$1800 in stores.

I collect 1911s, so I'm giving you feebback based on experience and ownership of many models.


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## Teuthis

I have a Kimber and I love it. But I handled a Smith and Wesson recently and I love those too. I am considering getting one. I have an older Springfield, and I consider it to be an excellent defense pistol. I would like to have night sights on it. 

I say you cannot go wrong with the Kimber.


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## JeffWard

Kimber Gold Match Stainless II (low end?)
or
Kimber Gold Combat II (premium?)

Same gun, different sights!!!!!

TRP vs Loaded Springfield??? The TRP is a flat black "Loaded" with tritiums...

The Trophy Match is the only step above the Loaded, and it's $1500+ if you can get one.

Now the STI's... they might turn my head... Researching...

JW


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## bac1023

JeffWard said:


> Pics:


Like I posted earlier, if you want a top notch production 1911 and are willing to spend $1400, forget those three. They are quality 1911s, but not what you said you are looking for.

Take a look at these models. They normally run $1200-$1450.

Sig Sauer STX



















STI Trojan hard chrome



















Springfield TRP stainless



















Colt Special Combat Government



















Kimber Super Match II. In my opinion the best production 1911 made. Prices are $1700-$1800. The Gold Combat is less and is basically the same gun without the accuracy guarentee or target sights.


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## bac1023

JeffWard said:


> Kimber Gold Match Stainless II (low end?)
> or
> Kimber Gold Combat II (premium?)
> 
> Same gun, different sights!!!!!
> 
> TRP vs Loaded Springfield??? The TRP is a flat black "Loaded" with tritiums...
> 
> The Trophy Match is the only step above the Loaded, and it's $1500+ if you can get one.
> 
> Now the STI's... they might turn my head... Researching...
> 
> JW


 You are looking at retail prices, not what they sell for. Believe me, I have dozens and dozens of 1911s, from $4500 to $400, and know what I'm talking about. The Trophy Match sell for $1100 in stores, the TRP is a step above the Trophy Match. I have Springers from the $3200 TGO1 to the $500 GI. You're not going to teach me about 1911s.

You are not correct about Kimber or Springfield. The TRP is in a totally different class than the Loaded. The Loaded is NOWHERE NEAR the TRP. They don't even come close to being the same. Only Loaded owners will tell you that, as they think they got the same gun for half the price, what a joke. For your info, the Loaded is made in Brazil with the other entry level Springfields.

The Gold Combat and Gold Match are also much different. The Combat is a custom shop Kimber, the Match is not. Prices retail for a $500 difference and they feel totally different in hand.

I'm trying to help you get a nice 1911. Don't flame me for it. I know my way around a 1911 and I'll help you if you want.


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## JeffWard

MMMMMM.... STI Trojan 6.0... In hard chrome??? Okay, maybe $1600...

Now THAT'S a gun...

Email sent...

JW


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## bac1023

JeffWard said:


> MMMMMM.... STI Trojan 6.0... In hard chrome??? Okay, maybe $1600...
> 
> Now THAT'S a gun...
> 
> Email sent...
> 
> JW


The Trojan is an awesome gun, as are the others I gave you pics of.


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## James NM

Hey Jeff, don't you remember the "modest" collection of 1911's that bac1023 showed us in this thread? http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=13529

I know I would welcome his advice on 1911's, and that was not even the subject of the thread.:smt033


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## Mike Barham

> You're not going to teach me about 1911s.


However, a bit of humility goes a long way.

Not that I am one to talk. :mrgreen:


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## brisk21

I gotta go with the springfield. I'll bet the reliability is still top knotch, and I just always like springfield guns. in fact, the loaded target model is on my list of must haves, but it is the other model, the stainless with black grips that is two tone with black. that gun is everything a modern 1911 should be. It will go good with my mil-spec springfield 1911.


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## brisk21

bac1023 said:


> You are looking at retail prices, not what they sell for. Believe me, I have dozens and dozens of 1911s, from $4500 to $400, and know what I'm talking about. The Trophy Match sell for $1100 in stores, the TRP is a step above the Trophy Match. I have Springers from the $3200 TGO1 to the $500 GI. You're not going to teach me about 1911s.
> 
> You are not correct about Kimber or Springfield. The TRP is in a totally different class than the Loaded. The Loaded is NOWHERE NEAR the TRP. They don't even come close to being the same. Only Loaded owners will tell you that, as they think they got the same gun for half the price, what a joke. For your info, the Loaded is made in Brazil with the other entry level Springfields.
> 
> The Gold Combat and Gold Match are also much different. The Combat is a custom shop Kimber, the Match is not. Prices retail for a $500 difference and they feel totally different in hand.
> 
> I'm trying to help you get a nice 1911. Don't flame me for it. I know my way around a 1911 and I'll help you if you want.


so, in your opinion, whats the best 1911 you can buy for 1200 dollars?


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## submoa

1,000-1,400

In your price range, I'd suggest an STI Targetmaster. For the money, you can afford a full on competition gun (MSRP 1,440) and one of the best values for a bull barrel 1911. STI has one of the best 1911 actions in the industry and is the go-to supplier for 1911 pattern race guns.


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## bac1023

Mike Barham said:


> However, a bit of humility goes a long way.
> 
> Not that I am one to talk. :mrgreen:


I have plenty of humility, but I also needed to correct the info given about Springfield and Kimber 1911s.

No big deal.


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## Mike Barham

Just givin' you a hard time, *bac*.  I am not the most humble person on the face of the planet, as many here will attest. :mrgreen:


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## James NM

Mike Barham said:


> Just givin' you a hard time, *bac*.  I am not the most humble person on the face of the planet, as many here will attest. :mrgreen:


Now here's one of Mike's posts I can agree with completely!:smt033

Can I get a +1 Brothers & Sisters???


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## Fred40

Hey Bac, what about the Dan Wesson Pointman Seven? Looks like a real steal!

http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/product_detail.php?id=65

_The Pointman Seven is a 5" series 70 style 1911 featuring a stainless steel frame and forged stainless steel slide. Like all Dan Wesson 1911s, Pointman models incorporate top quality parts from the best names in the industry

· Forged, one piece match grade barrel and bushing.
· Round top slide with Bo-Mar style adjustable target sight
· Hand polished flat surfaces with contrasting bead blasted rounds
· Flat, all steel 20-LPI checkered mainspring housing
· Front and rear cocking serrations
· Beveled magwell
· All sharp edges dehorned by hand
· Lowered and flared ejection port
· Hand polished feed ramp
· Ed Brown slide stop
· Ed Brown memory groove grip safety
· Tactical extended thumb safety
· One piece full length stainless guide rod
· Commander style match hammer
· Match grade sear
· Aluminum trigger with stainless bow
· Extended serrated magazine catch
· Wolff springs used exclusively
· Diamond checkered coco-bolo grips
· Tuned, machined, internal extractor
· Test fired for reliability
· 38 ounces unloaded_


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## submoa

Fred40 said:


> Hey Bac, what about the Dan Wesson Pointman Seven? Looks like a real steal!
> 
> http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/product_detail.php?id=65
> 
> The Pointman Seven is a 5" series 70 style 1911


Beautiful finish on DWs. Plus I like the lack of a firing pin safety and no MIM.


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## bac1023

Fred40 said:


> Hey Bac, what about the Dan Wesson Pointman Seven? Looks like a real steal!
> 
> http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/product_detail.php?id=65
> 
> _The Pointman Seven is a 5" series 70 style 1911 featuring a stainless steel frame and forged stainless steel slide. Like all Dan Wesson 1911s, Pointman models incorporate top quality parts from the best names in the industry
> 
> · Forged, one piece match grade barrel and bushing.
> · Round top slide with Bo-Mar style adjustable target sight
> · Hand polished flat surfaces with contrasting bead blasted rounds
> · Flat, all steel 20-LPI checkered mainspring housing
> · Front and rear cocking serrations
> · Beveled magwell
> · All sharp edges dehorned by hand
> · Lowered and flared ejection port
> · Hand polished feed ramp
> · Ed Brown slide stop
> · Ed Brown memory groove grip safety
> · Tactical extended thumb safety
> · One piece full length stainless guide rod
> · Commander style match hammer
> · Match grade sear
> · Aluminum trigger with stainless bow
> · Extended serrated magazine catch
> · Wolff springs used exclusively
> · Diamond checkered coco-bolo grips
> · Tuned, machined, internal extractor
> · Test fired for reliability
> · 38 ounces unloaded_


The Pointman is great, as is the entire Dan Wesson line. I have the CBOB.



















I plan on getting a Valor, which is an upgrade over the PM and CBOB, and in the class of some of the other 1911s I listed as being premium production models.

I would consider the CBOB and Pointman lower mid range 1911s, albeit very good quality guns.


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## Fred40

bac1023 said:


> I plan on getting a Valor, which is an upgrade over the PM and CBOB, and in the class of some of the other 1911s I listed as being premium production models.


I don't see the Valor on the website??

What is the trigger weight on the CBOB?


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## bac1023

Fred40 said:


> I don't see the Valor on the website??
> 
> What is the trigger weight on the CBOB?


The Trigger feels to be about 4-5 lbs.

The Valor is brand new and didn't make it to CZ's website yet. Its DW's new top of the line 1911.

Here's a generic Valor pic. Its stainless with a black Teflon finish. I think its beautiful. Right now, they are hard to come by, however.


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## submoa

bac1023 said:


> Right now, they are hard to come by, however.


Only 200 will be made this year.


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## oak1971

Les Baer. Mine will be here in a month.


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## xjclassic

This is totally off topic but every time I open this thread my AVG software tells me that there is two viruses in somebody's Photobucket links. Never had this happen before and it list two links or photos infected.


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## USAFgsm

I'm not sure what the "DK" means, but I would personally choose the S&W. I was in the market for a Springfield Loaded, until i found the SW1911. That gun just felt so much better to me in every way. And thats just the $830 version, not this "DK" model. Its all just personal preference i guess, but thats how I feel about it.


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## submoa

USAFgsm said:


> I'm not sure what the "DK" means


DK stands for Doug Koenig, a competitive shooter. S&W is his sponsor. No major wins since 2003. Apparently S&W 1911DK is their competition 1911.

Then again, I like Todd Jarrett better but that alone won't motivate me to get a Para Ordnance.


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## AZ Outlaws

So, my made in Brazil, Springfield PX9151LP Loaded is at the bottom of the food chain... now you tell me!!! :mrgreen:


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## submoa

AZ Outlaws said:


> So, my made in Brazil, Springfield PX9151LP Loaded is at the bottom of the food chain... now you tell me!!! :mrgreen:


You are comparing a $1,000 service gun to the $1,500 competition guns in the poll.

I shouldn't worry...

Both Kimber and S&W use a Swartz Safety FPB. Swartz's are finicky about grip safety alignment to allow you to fire. Kimber's Swartz uses a small plunger pin that is prone to shearing. One more thing to worry about when competing.

Springfields have no FPB and use a titanium firing pin instead. Yours has a forged frame, slide and barrel.

All three in the poll have MIM internals that is unacceptable in a $1,500 gun.

At the price you paid for yours, you can have a gunsmith replace all the MIM with tool steel and still have money left over, confident your gun is more reliable than those in the poll.


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## hornblower

*Best 1911*

"In your price range, I'd suggest an STI Targetmaster. For the money, you can afford a full on competition gun (MSRP 1,440) and one of the best values for a bull barrel 1911. STI has one of the best 1911 actions in the industry and is the go-to supplier for 1911 pattern race guns. "

If price is not an obstacle, which 1911 would you buy, including true custom models?

Thank you.


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## jacksmatrixxx

+1 for the cbob i love mine


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## DevilsJohnson

Have to say the Springer. I have two and they are two of the best pistols I have ever had:watching:
Neither has yet to not do what it's supposed to do over thousands of rounds. Are they the best? Depends on how you look at things. I've had 1911's that cost em a whole lot more and were supposed to be "top of the line" but failed on more than one occasion and made me not trust them 100%....So they had to go away. My 9mm is a Brazil gun ..the other is an older used to be middle of the road 45 ACP pistol that was rebuilt by me and a tool maker friend of mine. I have no idea what it would sell for..It's priceless to me though. That's the great thing about 1911's. There's so much you can do to them to make each one unique. I have never looked at a 1911 in the box without thinking what I will want to do to it to make it my own. It would do my no good to buy some custom shop gun. I don't want to trust someone elses work when I can take it and do what I want and I know exactly what was done and how it's going to perform


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## oak1971

Springfield TRP 1300 and it's got lots of custom features. Some hand fitting and 2 inch accuracy at 25 yards.


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## jacksmatrixxx

double post


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## wahsben

Sometimes S&W have some major sales and you could probably get an S&W performance center model for around $1400 or a little more.


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## Dredd

Old topic, but I had to point out something.



> I would consider the CBOB and Pointman lower mid range 1911s, albeit very good quality guns.


They are not "low end" when you shoot them. They shoot much better than many guns that are hundreds of dollars over their pricepoints. Plus, even the Springfield TRP has an ejector that is glued in and has come loose in the past. Neither of the Dan Wesson guns use MIM and everything is of a higher quality than the TRP or the Kimber IMO.

Worth a look and you may save some cash anyway.


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## bac1023

They are low end models when you shoot them as well.

I didn't say they were bad. I think they are the best $800-$900 1911s you can buy. However, they are what they are and nothing more. Any more than that and you can get an STI Trojan, which to me is a better 1911 than either of those two.


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## Dredd

bac1023 said:


> They are low end models when you shoot them as well.
> 
> I didn't say they were bad. I think they are the best $800-$900 1911s you can buy. However, they are what they are and nothing more. Any more than that and you can get an STI Trojan, which to me is a better 1911 than either of those two.


Old thread, but

BS ALERT!

Dan Wesson does not use MIM. STI does...that alone makes the DW better value regardless of price. Shootability is excellent, holding quarter sized groups easily if you do your part. Your idea of them being low end is ridiculous and very wrong. Don't compare them to an Ed Brown or Wilson Combat, that isn't their target demographic. The DW guns are better than any Kimber I've ever seen and that includes the ones they want $1200 for.

The price that DWs go for does not reflect the true value of the weapon.


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## mcd1824

*Springfields*

I have six springfields with barrels ranging from 4 inches (The Champion) to a six inch longslide. Two of my 5 inch guns have had the Bobtail modiification done to the frames and they are a joy to carry (no sharp corner poking my short ribs). All of them ran out of the box. I changed the ambi safeties on a couple because I prefer the standard extended.

I have one Kimber. Expect the small molded parts to break. I've have three small parts break on the same 4 inch compact. Finally took it to a smith I trust and changed out the guts to more durable parts.

Have to admit I have no experience with Smith & Wesson 1911's but its hard to beat their revolvers. I just don't like the blue parts they use on an otherwise stainless gun. The grip safety and other parts would be expensive to change out on their stainless guns.

I would also take a look at the Dan Wesson line now made by CZ. I have one of their bobtail commander length guns. Other than changing out a blue barrel bushing and blue firing pin stop with stainless parts to match the rest of the gun, I have no complaints. It ran fine out of the box.

ALSO, make sure you run your gun on good magazines. I've sold every other kind I had and bought Wilson mags with the slim profile metal floor plates. I've never had a problem with them jamming or locking the slides back on the last round. I rotate the mags whenever I go shooting even though I probably don't need to.

Finally, get good leather. Kramer, Galco, Sparks, Mitch Rosen are all good choices. I like IWB holsters but they're no everyone cup of tea. I've just found they don't stick out from under the short jackets and sweatshirts I wear on the weekends. Rosen has the best mag pouches. I like their combination pouch for my Wilson mag and Surefire flashlight. All the leather I use has 1 1/4 belt loops and I like the heay double thick belts.

Anyway, hope that helps! Have fun!


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## ratrodfink

One of each!


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## oak1971

Les Baer's can be had from ProLoad for 1500


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## GLI45

I have to go with some of the other posts suggesting STI. There are 3 or 4 full size 1911s in the price range. In addition to the Targetmaster mentioned earlier, there is the Rangemaster and both the 5' & 6" Trojans. I have 3 STI pistols with a 4th on order and in my opinion STI is a step up in class. Nothing wrong with DW, SA, or S&W. All are very solid weapons that will perform. However, STI built their reputation on crafting fine competition pistols and that expertise runs through the entire line.


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## gilream

Have all of these pics been deleted or something? I find this thread very ineresting but very few of the pics posted are visible. Sounds like a lot af knowledge and great information here about 1911s but please, learn how to post a picture. Even I can do it.


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## DevilsJohnson

gilream said:


> Have all of these pics been deleted or something? I find this thread very ineresting but very few of the pics posted are visible. Sounds like a lot af knowledge and great information here about 1911s but please, learn how to post a picture. Even I can do it.


If there's just a place holder then the pics have been moved from the host site or been deleted.


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## crash8168

I have a springfield operator with the cocobo grips, its beautiful and less expensive than the pistols above, plus since i am a fairly large man i can hide it under a t-shirt quite easily....


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## txgolfer45

bac1023 said:


> If you can spend up to 1400, go with a Springfield TRP, Kimber Gold Combat II, Colt Special Combat, or STI Trojan. They are premium production 1911s and can be had for $1400 or slightly less.
> 
> I think the best production 1911 is the Kimber Super Match II, but they cost $1700-$1800 in stores.
> 
> I collect 1911s, so I'm giving you feebback based on experience and ownership of many models.


Any thoughts on the STI Lawman? Considering it, SA TRP and Kimber Raptor or Grand Raptor. Need to look at the Colt Special Combat you listed above.


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## dondavis3

I currently own a Kimber and a Smith & Wesson .45.

They are both very good guns.

The Smith is 20 years old (I bought it new) and carried it as my duty gun.

The Kimber is brand new and a dream to shoot - it comes with a lot of "gunsmith" custom work already done to it.

Everyone knows how good the Springfield is - 

So I guess I'm saying "get the one you want" - the one that really turns you on, because all three models and brands are outstanding.

:smt1099


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## dances with guns

i voted for springer. mainly because i have one and it is a fantastic 1911. it's a champion operator.:smt023

based on everything i've heard from kimber owners at the range, i would never buy one. just my preference.

i hear smith has nice nice 1911's though.


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## DevilsJohnson

dances with guns said:


> i voted for springer. mainly because i have one and it is a fantastic 1911. it's a champion operator.:smt023
> 
> based on everything i've heard from kimber owners at the range, i would never buy one. just my preference.
> 
> i hear smith has nice nice 1911's though.


I've got a chance to see and shoot a few of the Smith 1911's. I was surprised at how well they shot truth be told.

Can't go wrong wit ha Springer in my opinion either :smt023


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