# They got it wrong ! DAO ?



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Let's go over this one more time, lol .

The m&p strikers, the VP strikers, the sig strikers all have a crisp single action pull. 

They are beautiful guns. 

They should be SAO STRIKER FIRED HANDGUNS, yes , the Glock also. Don't justify a little movement as part of a double action .poppycock! Whattya think?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

How 'bout making it four separate kinds of trigger actions?
SA, TDA, DAO, and whatever you want to call the Glock-type action.
Glock calls it the "Safe Action," but I don't think that it really is. It needs a different name.
.


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## Dvidos (Aug 23, 2019)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> How 'bout making it four separate kinds of trigger actions?
> SA, TDA, DAO, and whatever you want to call the Glock-type action.
> Glock calls it the "Safe Action," but I don't think that it really is. It needs a different name.
> .


+1


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> How 'bout making it four separate kinds of trigger actions?
> SA, TDA, DAO, and whatever you want to call the Glock-type action.
> Glock calls it the "Safe Action," but I don't think that it really is. It needs a different name.
> .


Ok , let's start with " any gun, that the trigger can repeatedly (like after a misfire) be pulled ( action cycles ) with only the trigger qualifies as a double action mechanism.

Revolvers have it right, they're ok ,lol.

DA/SA has it right also, you have a double action and single action, they're not misrepresented. When the slide engages and chambers a round you are in single action mode.

NOTE , STRIKERS ARE ALL ENGAGED WITH THE SLIDE ACTION . They can not be repeatedly pulled like a true double action
I don't understand why they had to take an easy CONCEPT of DOUBLE ACTION and make it confusing.

The glocks "safe action" is a little unnoticed twist that some want to justify as stage one of it's double action label. GIVE ME A BREAK, LOL.

I really like my single action striker fired guns. But let's be real about it.
Don't tell me I'm holding an ORANGE when I know it's an APPLE.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

My understanding is that when Glock introduced their pistol, the BATF had to give the trigger mechansim a classification. At the time, the options they had to work with for pistols were SA, DA/SA, and DAO. Glock was successful in getting them to classify the pistol "DAO" on the basis that the striker spring was only partially tensioned by slide reciprocation, and that the trigger both fully tensioned the striker and released the sear. This was advantageous to Glock because some law enforcement agencies mandated that pistols be either DA/SA or DAO.

I have shot a bunch of striker-fired pistols, "Crisp" is a relative term but my concept of a crisp single-action trigger would be that of a well-tuned model 1911, or a quality double action revolver fired in single action mode. I have yet to shoot a striker-fired pistol with a trigger action that I would call "crisp". Striker-fired pistol triggers vary a great deal in terms of pull weight, take-up, quality of break, and positivity of reset, but in general I would agree that they are much more like a single action hammer-fired trigger than a double action trigger on a TDA, or DAO pistol, or a double action or DAO revolver. Striker-fired pistols also vary a great deal in the extent to which the striker is tensioned by slide reciprocation.

I have always felt that classifying striker-fired pistols as either SAO or DAO was non-sensible.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pic said:


> ...Don't tell me I'm holding an ORANGE when I know it's an APPLE.


It's an orange-colored apple.



pblanc said:


> ...I have yet to shoot a striker-fired pistol with a trigger action that I would call "crisp"...


OK, but I have a couple of hammer-fired pistols which are DAO, and they, too, do not have trigger actions one could call "crisp."
Not "mushy," but certainly not "crisp."

It is not a matter of hammer versus striker. It's solely a matter of the trigger action.
.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

There are many references describing the vp9 or the ppq as a s crisp trigger .
Define crisp, I don't know .

Trigger pull is a steady 5.6 pounds, though the trigger is the party piece, as Walther's butter-smooth and crisp striker trigger is widely thought to be the best striker trigger available. Continue reading at: https://aliengearholsters.com/blog/walther-ppq-vs-hk-vp9/


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

I have a Glock 19. I have two SIG P320s. I have an M&P Shield. I have shot many Glocks, the SIG P365, some FN FNS pistols, some Springfield XDs, a Walther PPQ and P99, an HK VP9, and a Beretta APX. The trigger actions vary significantly but all have had a good deal of what I am going to call "creep".

Hammer-fired pistols and double action revolvers fired in DA mode, whether DAO or not, are all going to have a good deal of creep by necessity. During the resistance phase of the trigger press the trigger pull must cock the hammer against the resistance of the mainspring before releasing it.

As a general rule, striker-fired pistols do not have external manual safties (I know there are plenty of exceptions). After chambering a round, the pistol is at least partially "cocked" and often nearly completely cocked, and with few exceptions cannot be decocked. So the sear engagement surfaces must of necessity be fairly long and have postive sear angles for safety's sake. 

TDA pistols and double action revolvers are not intended to be carried with the hammer cocked. Well, some CZs are designed so that they can be carried cocked, but these also have a manual thumb safety. These do not require as long sear engagemnt surfaces in the single action mode because the long, heavier double action trigger pull acts as the safety.

Single action hammer fired pistols have one or more external manual safeties to prevent the trigger from releasing the hammer, so they can also have shorter sear engagement surfaces and more neutral sear engagement angles making for a crisper trigger break with less creep.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

pic said:


> Ok , let's start with " any gun, that the trigger can repeatedly (like after a misfire) be pulled ( action cycles ) with only the trigger qualifies as a double action mechanism.


None of the early S&W DAO autoloaders can be repeatedly cycled in DA mode as you described, and as far as I know, these were the first "DAO" autoloaders made and successfully marketed by a large gunmaker. Actually, the number of DOA autoloaders that have true "second-strike" DAO capability (if the gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled, another attempt to fire can be made just by pulling the trigger again) is not as large as you might think, if you count the current models with this feature. Like the S&W DAO models, most DAOs partially pre-cock the hammer to lighten the pull weight, in a similar manner to the Glocks and some other striker-fired pistols.

If the trigger action of a pistol just releases the stored energy in the hammer or striker, is is performing a "Single Action" -- releasing that stored energy to fire the pistol. If the trigger is completing the cocking step by adding energy to the hammer or striker by further compressing a spring in the firing mechanism, and THEN releasing that energy to fire the pistol, it is performing two functions -- thus, a Double Action mechanism. It does not matter how _much_ energy is being added; it is the 2 separate functions of adding energy and then releasing all the stored energy that makes it a DA mechanism.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

What were the early s&w models ?
The partial stored energy or already cocked firing spring is very inconsistent to almost non-existent ( fully compressed ) in certain models like the Vp 9 or the PPQ.

My 1911 could be considered a double action in the same way then.
The hammer cocked equals stored energy , the second action is the hammer going forward, the third action is striking the uncocked firing pin.
I just created a triple action 1911. Lol

Maybe that could be the argument that unconfuses everyone.
Any stored energy in the firing mechanism is considered a single action.

I'm trying to think if there's any stored energy in a double action revolver.

Great point about the stored energy, it's something to think about.

I don't think the Manufacturers ( marketing ) are going to change anything based on my objection. Lol


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

pic said:


> What were the early s&w models ?


The ones I remember (because I owned one of each at various times; all are 9mm) were the 3953 (stainless-looking-alloy-frame, stainless-slide, 8-shot DAO); the 3954 (blued-alloy-frame, stainless-slide, 8-shot DAO); and the 5946 (stainless-looking-alloy-frame, stainless-slide, 14-shot DAO). These were all introduced around 1990/1991.

The hammer was left partially cocked by the motion of the slide during initial loading or firing. Pulling the trigger finished cocking the hammer, then released it to fire the pistol. If you had a misfire, you had to hand-cycle the slide to eject the bad round and re-pre-cock the action. If you just pulled the trigger after a misfire, prior to cycling the slide, the trigger would move, but nothing else would happen.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

pic said:


> What were the early s&w models ?
> The partial stored energy or already cocked firing spring is very inconsistent to almost non-existent ( fully compressed ) in certain models like the Vp 9 or the PPQ.
> 
> My 1911 could be considered a double action in the same way then.
> ...


Maybe the best way to think of a Glock trigger is that it is partially cocked. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker.

The VP9, PPQ, etc has a fully cocked striker which releases when the trigger is pulled w/o the trigger completing the cocking cycle. I agree not a whole lot of difference in those actions.

The 1911 is definitely a SA trigger.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I also hear many times the term " True Double Action" used in a description.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

The terms "single action" and "double action" originated with revolvers and had easily understood definitions that conveyed useful information . With single action revolvers the hammer had to be cocked to unlock, rotate, and lock the cylinder and the trigger then dropped the hammer with a relatively light and short trigger pull. With a double action or "trigger cocking" revolver, the trigger pull, though much longer and heavier, performed the actions of rotating the cylinder and cocking the hammer before releasing the hammer. In the event of a misfire, the trigger could be pulled again to rotate the cylinder to the next chamber without manually cocking the hammer.

When TDA pistols came around, the terms single and double action still had clear and useful meanings. The double action trigger pulled cocked the hammer from its fully down state and released it without the need to rack the slide or cock the hammer. The double action trigger pull remained very different in pull weight and length from the single action trigger mechanism that applied if the hammer was already cocked. And in the event of a misfire, the pistol had double strike capability.

With hammer-fired revolvers and pistols the term DAO was also easily understood. The trigger action was the same as that of a double action revolver or a TDA pistol fired in DA mode. They simply lacked the facility to cock the hammer for a short, light trigger pull. And the revovler trigger could still be pulled to rotate the cylinder to the next chamber or the pistol trigger pulled a second time in the event of a misfire.

Single action hammer-fired pistols worked much the same as single action revovlers except slide reciprocation cocked the hammer after the first shot. Trigger pull remained short and relatively light.

Then came the Glock and a subsequent plethora of striker-action pistols. In my opinion, to apply the terms SAO or DAO to these pistols is of little to no value and basically debases the former meaning of these terms except perhaps in the case of a pistol like the Walther P99 which does truely have two very distinct trigger pulls. Whether a striker-fired pistol is termed DAO or SAO really does not convey much information at all as to what to expect of the trigger pull in terms of weight or length. A have shot Glocks with modfied triggers which had very light trigger pulls, despite the fact that their strikers were only partially-tensioned by slide reciprocation. None of them have double strike capability. What is more, none of the striker-fired pistols can be decocked after chambering a round, unlike with a cocked hammer-fired revolver or pistol in which the hammer can be carefully lowered.

To claim that a striker action pistol is DAO because the striker spring is tensioned to a very small additional degree by the trigger pull is even more absurd IMO. Because the great majority of unmodified TDA pistols shot in SA mode tension the mainspring to a slight additional degree when the trigger is pulled. That is because they have positive sear engagement angles for safety. You may not see the hammer coming back, but if you cock the hammer of your unloaded Beretta, SIG, etc. and put your thumb on the back of the hammer as you pull the trigger, you will feel it. So if we are going to call a striker action pistol DAO on the basis that the trigger pull applies the last 1% of tension to a 99% tensioned striker spring, I guess we will have to reclassify TDA pistols DA/DA.

Who really cares the degree to which the striker in their pistol is tensioned before pulling the trigger? It is the length and weight of the trigger pull and the quality of the break that matter and calling a stiker action pistol DAO conveys none of that information.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

pblanc said:


> Who really cares the degree to which the striker in their pistol is tensioned before pulling the trigger? It is the length and weight of the trigger pull and the quality of the break that matter and calling a stiker action pistol DAO conveys none of that information.


You make a persuasive argument, but I think using the basic description of an action type to try to determine what to expect out of that action in the way of "feel" has also long gone by the wayside. Many of the less-expensive 1911A1 Single-Action pistols have so much sear engagement and pull weight that a stock Glock trigger is easier to manage (and more often than you'd think, lighter in pull weight).

Even within the handgun type categories, the action description is quite misleading when it comes to "feel". The DA pull on a S&W J-frame revolver is far different in feel and manageability than a S&W K- or L-frame revolver DA pull, both in weight and smoothness. Contrast a SIG "DAK" DAO trigger weight and feel with that of a true DAO that has double-strike capability; something like a Beretta 92D DAO or a Ruger P93 DAO has a MUCH different weight and feel (generally much longer and heavier throughout the pull). I've said several times that if SIG could have gotten their DAK trigger action to the market and into police hands before Glock, then Glock might never have taken-off in the police world the way they did.

We have so many different action-type choices nowadays that the old terms, created when there were far fewer options, are struggling to describe the choices in a way that is still useful. Companies often do name their new/different action types, but I think that's more to get their name out there and claim a certain mechanism type or description as their own, than to help the consumer differentiate between them.

EDITED: to correct the model number on the Beretta I was discussing; originally, it said 92G, the correct model number for the model 92 DAO was 92D.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

pblanc said:


> To claim that a striker action pistol is DAO because the striker spring is tensioned to a very small additional degree by the trigger pull is even more absurd IMO. Because the great majority of unmodified TDA pistols shot in SA mode tension the mainspring to a slight additional degree when the trigger is pulled. That is because they have positive sear engagement angles for safety. You may not see the hammer coming back, but if you cock the hammer of your unloaded Beretta, SIG, etc. and put your thumb on the back of the hammer as you pull the trigger, you will feel it. So if we are going to call a striker action pistol DAO on the basis that the trigger pull applies the last 1% of tension to a 99% tensioned striker spring, I guess we will have to reclassify TDA pistols DA/DA.


I tend to disagree a bit comparing a Glock trigger action with that of a unmodified TDA pistol or shall we say a DA/SA pistol in SA.

The TDA pistol in single action mode performs in the same exact manner as any SA pistol, there is no partial tension applied by the mainspring after the pistol is fully cocked or when the hammer is released by the sear and certainly the trigger does not complete the cocking cycle of the mainspring in order to fire the pistol.

When I pull the trigger on any of my DA/SA pistols in SA mode, I feel no rearward movement of the hammer, the hammer drops forward after being released by the sear, via the disconnector, via the trigger, etc....

SA





Glock


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

denner12 said:


> When I pull the trigger on any of my DA/SA pistols in SA mode, I feel no rearward movement of the hammer...


I won't say it's ALWAYS there, but it's OFTEN there; however, it's a very, VERY tiny amount. You'd probably have to dry-fire the pistol by pulling the trigger _very_ slowly while watching the hammer from the side to even detect it, but it's usually there. As pblanc said, it's more a function of the sear angle engagement surfaces than any deliberate want or need to add more tension to the mainspring, but it still does so.

Side note: If your AR-15 has a stock military-style trigger in it, it also adds a bit of tension during the trigger squeeze due to the relatively large and angled sear surfaces. The tip of the hammer may move rearward up to 1/8th of an inch during the trigger pull, depending on how well the parts are machined.

So, there you go; most stock AR-style rifles actually have a DAO trigger pull (by this definition).

.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

DJ Niner said:


> I won't say it's ALWAYS there, but it's OFTEN there; however, it's a very, VERY tiny amount. You'd probably have to dry-fire the pistol by pulling the trigger _very_ slowly while watching the hammer from the side to even detect it, but it's usually there. As pblanc said, it's more a function of the sear angle engagement surfaces than any deliberate want or need to add more tension to the mainspring, but it still does so.
> 
> Side note: If your AR-15 has a stock military-style trigger in it, it also adds a bit of tension during the trigger squeeze due to the relatively large and angled sear surfaces. The tip of the hammer may move rearward up to 1/8th of an inch during the trigger pull, depending on how well the parts are machined.
> 
> ...


Gotcha, but I tried with my Beretta's in SA and I don't perceive any rearward movement of the hammer whatsoever, either tactile or visual, the hammer just drops forward seemingly, but again it's a Beretta, lol.

PS *pblanc, I stand corrected. *


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Well, I have a Beretta 92FS, two Beretta Cougars, and a Stoeger Cougar and with a thumb on the rear of the hammer when slowly pressing the trigger with the hammer cocked, I can feel rearward pressure on the hammer with all of them. As DJNiner said, this is a function of the sear engagement angles that are present on most (perhaps not all) stock DA/SA pistols and not an intent to further tension the mainspring. The postitive sear engagement angles are there to reduce the likelihood of sear step off. Smiths will often rework sear engagement angles on target pistols to neutral to reduce the pressure on the sear engagement surfaces and lighten the SA trigger pull weight.

sear engagement angles


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## Babbalou1956 (Sep 2, 2014)

No matter what the makers call them I don't consider them DAO if they don't have restrike capability. IMHO partially cocked isn't DAO. On an odd side note, Taurus makes 2 SA pistols that have restrike capability, the G2C & G3 & they do call it "SA w/Restrike" on their website.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

pblanc said:


> Well, I have a Beretta 92FS, two Beretta Cougars, and a Stoeger Cougar and with a thumb on the rear of the hammer when slowly pressing the trigger with the hammer cocked, I can feel rearward pressure on the hammer with all of them. As DJNiner said, this is a function of the sear engagement angles that are present on most (perhaps not all) stock DA/SA pistols and not an intent to further tension the mainspring. The postitive sear engagement angles are there to reduce the likelihood of sear step off. Smiths will often rework sear engagement angles on target pistols to neutral to reduce the pressure on the sear engagement surfaces and lighten the SA trigger pull weight.
> 
> sear engagement angles


Sounds good! You actually learn stuff hanging around here.


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