# Teacher, CCW--- Gun and Holster Suggestion



## jbultman

Hey all,

I am a teacher in Ohio and we just completed the ALICE training. However now there are rumors floating around the school of teachers CCW in the next year or so. I'm starting to do research about CCW and school and all that. I've been to my local shops and got multiple suggestions on guns. 

For the Gun....
I really want something that has two safeties, thumb and trigger or hammer block, just because I'm around kids and I don't want anything happening on accident (This is a requirement!!). I want and have access to 9mm b/c of owning another 9mm firearm. Anywho, the shop suggested;

Sig Sauer P938
Smith and Wesson M&P9c
Ruger SR9c

I was thinking that these might do the trick, but.... are they too big for ccw in school with dress cloths; tucked in oxfords and dress pants, occasionally jeans and a tucked in polo???

I would like to know if any of these are good for what I'm looking for.

And for holsters....
I have been looking at Belly Bands, The Supertuck, Galco SkyOps, 5.11 Holster Shirt and Deep Concealment Holsters.
But I think that I need to find the gun first before the holster.

Suggestions, Comments, Ideas, Thoughts?!?!?

Thanks in advance,
jbultman


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## Steve M1911A1

Belly-bands and holster shirts don't do the job for me. Been there, did that, didn't like it.
Neither one actually fits the gun properly, which further complicates the presentation process, already difficult because you have to somehow undo your shirt quickly—not just when attacked, but also repeatedly when you're practicing the presentation. Yes, you do have to practice. A lot.
It is less difficult and less complex to merely pull your shirt up, or to move your jacket out of the way, to expose the pistol carried in a properly-fitted belt holster.
Galco makes excellent off-the-shelf products. Crossbreed has a very good reputation.

In a classroom environment, it will be your responsibility to be in complete control of your weapon, all of the time.
For one thing, "concealed is concealed": That is, nobody—including especially your students—should know that you are armed.
This fact of armed life removes, to some extent at least, your requirement for multiple safety devices on your pistol. The only safety device which counts, anyway, is the one in your head, between your ears. If that's working properly, the ones on your weapon are almost superfluous. (Besides, you must never rely upon a mechanical device, to deliver the safety that you either need or desire.)

The best way to choose a pistol is to actually shoot it, and see if it fits your hands and capabilities.
Therefore, you might go to a shop-cum-range, and rent time on as many sample pistols as you can afford, perhaps five of them per range session. Take notes.
Then, after trying lots of guns, re-read your notes and zero-in on the most likely choices. Re-try those, and refine your choice to one. Buy that one.
Do not take advice upon which one to get. None of us are you. Try them all, and choose for yourself.


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## jbultman

Thank you very much!!

I am planning on going to the range here soon to do just that and see what I think, but I have another question?

Should I be looking in the Full size or Compact (case in point the ones suggested above) or Sub-compact or even smaller (like a pocket gun) size range? 
How many rounds should I expect to have? Would you carry an extra magazine?
And anything else applicable that you can think of!

Thanks again!


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## pic

Steve in the above post explains in a classroom . My opinion is that classroom is the priority ,really , in a classroom environment you need to conceal 100%. 
You are in a way under the microscope, because of the negative support of teachers being armed. You need to represent 
Properly. Consider yourself a pioneer to a new way of protecting our children . 
All eyes are on you!!!


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## TheLAGuy

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?


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## VAMarine

I'll reply more in depth later, but I strongly urge you to seek out training at the Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, Oh.

Start with their Handguns I-III and check out their Active Shooter training.

More on the equipment/concealment later this evening.


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## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ...Should I be looking in the Full size or Compact (case in point the ones suggested above) or Sub-compact or even smaller (like a pocket gun) size range?...


You're a beginner. You need to learn with a full-size pistol. When you've established good shooting fundamentals, like sight picture, trigger control, and solid grip, then you might consider switching to something smaller.
Compact pistols are hard to shoot well and accurately. They, and especially sub-compact (pocket-size) pistols, are experts' tools. You are not ready for that.

Generally speaking, carry the biggest, heaviest, largest-capacity pistol that you can hide reasonably well, all day long.
Larger, heavier guns are easier to control, and easier to shoot accurately and quickly.
And about large-capacity weapons, other people have already written that, when a fight is over, nobody has ever said, "I guess that I was carrying too much ammunition."

The foundation which permits a person to carry a large, heavy pistol, all day long, is a really good belt.
A good belt is defined as one that is thick, and remains stiff through months of constant wear. A stiff belt provides the support you need, but only of you buckle it tightly around yourself.

I second *VAMarine*: Get formal training.
Pistol shooting is not an easy skill to learn, nor is it easy to maintain. Indeed, I believe it to be the most fungible of all physical skills, so it requires constant, thoughtful practice.


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## DanMN

TheLAGuy said:


> How old are you if you don't mind me asking?


What does this have to do with anything???? Strange question and rather creepy.


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## paratrooper

I'm curious as to where you'll be allowed to carry. I've heard this and that, in regards to teachers being allowed to carry, but the situations seem to vary quite a bit.

Are you saying that you will be allowed to carry on your person at all times while working? In the classroom, lunch room, walking the hallways, etc?

The way I heard it, certain teachers or administrators would have *ACCESS* to a firearm that would be secured somewhere on-site. I've yet to hear that teachers will be actually armed at all times while on campus.

In regards to teachers carrying concealed and the students not knowing that. Good luck with that! Unless a male teacher is wearing some type of blazer at all times, there's no way that he can conceal a handgun via slacks and a tucked in shirt. Even concealed inside a waistband, the students will figure that out very quickly. I'm thinking a female teacher will have the same issues.

Anyways, I'm very interested in how you will be allowed to carry concealed while working. Please update me or do so once you have been further notified.

BTW.....+1 in regards to getting add'l. training as others have said.


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## VAMarine

jbultman said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am a teacher in Ohio and we just completed the ALICE training. However now there are rumors floating around the school of teachers CCW in the next year or so. I'm starting to do research about CCW and school and all that. I've been to my local shops and got multiple suggestions on guns.
> 
> For the Gun....
> I really want something that has two safeties, thumb and trigger or hammer block, just because I'm around kids and I don't want anything happening on accident (This is a requirement!!). I want and have access to 9mm b/c of owning another 9mm firearm. Anywho, the shop suggested;
> 
> Sig Sauer P938
> *Smith and Wesson M&P9c
> *Ruger SR9c


Of those listed, the M&P9C would be my choice. A word on the thumb safety, it takes a good amount of work to build what is referred to as "Muscle Memory" to remove that safety in a time of stress. Call it what you will but the habit of removing that safety needs to be ingrained via many, many repetitions in order to make it second nature. The M&P9C holds 12rds + an additional round in the chamber of 9mm, that's nothing to sneeze at. While Steve is pretty much right about everything he said about size and weight, in the environment that you are in, concealment is probably the biggest concern if you want to keep the same mode of dress so that means that you need to compromise on the gun. Depending on your budget, you can actually get a larger M&P and have the grip chopped down to the size of the 9c and have some of the beneficial traits of both the larger gun and the smaller gun.



> I was thinking that these might do the trick, but.... are they too big for ccw in school with dress cloths; tucked in oxfords and dress pants, occasionally jeans and a tucked in polo???
> 
> I would like to know if any of these are good for what I'm looking for.
> 
> And for holsters....
> I have been looking at Belly Bands, The Supertuck, Galco SkyOps, 5.11 Holster Shirt and Deep Concealment Holsters.
> But I think that I need to find the gun first before the holster.


The holster shirts can be problematic. What I would probably opt for is a *SmartCarry *that wears as such so that the grip of the pistol is above the waist line enough to make for easier access. The holster shirts you either need to try and fight against buttons or down the top of a polo or pulling the polo high enough to get he gun out....they are not recipes for quick access. I think the Smart Carry will be a reasonable compromise.

It will also allow you to carry a spare magazine, get the longer magazine of the full size M&P, if you ever need to reload, you'll want as much ammo as you can carry.



jbultman said:


> Thank you very much!!
> 
> I am planning on going to the range here soon to do just that and see what I think, but I have another question?
> 
> Should I be looking in the Full size or Compact (case in point the ones suggested above) or Sub-compact or even smaller (like a pocket gun) size range?
> How many rounds should I expect to have? Would you carry an extra magazine?
> And anything else applicable that you can think of!
> 
> Thanks again!


Stay away from the pocket guns if you can manage a larger gun. I would go no smaller than the M&P9c, a Glock 19, or maybe....maybe a Glock 26. Contrary to popular belief you CAN conceal a decent sized gun in Corporate Casual. I carry an HK P30 or P30L all day every day and I work around cops and other folks that you would expect to notice such things, granted I do not tuck in my polo shirts, but with a Smart Carry I have no reason to believe I could not pull it off.

The full size grip is going to be harder to conceal, but it is possible but I would probably opt for a Compact grip, I have a gun right now that is the longer upper of a full size gun but the grip will be shorter. The gun in question is a Glock 17 and the grip will be chopped to 19 dimensions.

Getting back to the guns in question, I think the M&P is the best priced and most common offering of the best quality to $$$ ratio with the features you want. The Sig 938 has too little capacity for the intended purpose of why you want to be able to carry. No one has ever gotten out of a gun fight and wished for less ammo. Spare magazines will never make up for a lesser capacity firearm and you want at least 10rds in the magazine.

The SR9Cs are great guns, if you're on a budget. The quality isn't as good as the M&P and the safety is too small. Remember me talking about lots of repetitions to get the safety off? The smaller safety of the SR9 will make it even more difficult.

Do carry the extra magazine(s).

How do you feel about a knife or other impact / contact weapon(s)?

This is the website for TDI
Tactical Defense Institute -- Ohio Firearms - Gun - Rifle - Shotgun - Pistol - CCW - Concealed Carry Permit -- TDI --www.tdiohio.com -- Cincinnati - Dayton - Columbus - Cleveland - Lexington - Louisville - Wheeling - Huntington - Indianapolis

My wife and I have been there for several classes and it is time and money well spent. I doubt very much that you will find better training in Ohio. That being said, if you want some alternatives I would highly suggest.

*Mid Ohio Firearms Training Academy
Little Miami Tactical

*I'm about wrapped up for the night, if you have any more questions etc. please feel free to ask.


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## blake38

paratrooper said:


> In regards to teachers carrying concealed and the students not knowing that. Good luck with that! Unless a male teacher is wearing some type of blazer at all times, there's no way that he can conceal a handgun via slacks and a tucked in shirt. Even concealed inside a waistband, the students will figure that out very quickly. I'm thinking a female teacher will have the same issues.


I've been thinking the same thing.

I've also been thinking, how does a teacher with a compact, concealed carry pistol approach an active shooter like Adam Lanza who has an assault rifle, a Glock 10mm, and body armor? Ok, it turns out Lanza didn't have body armor, but I wouldn't know that as I was approaching, so the prudent assumption would be that he was wearing body armor. Sounds like some serious, tactical training would definitely be warranted.


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## VAMarine

blake38 said:


> I've been thinking the same thing.
> 
> I've also been thinking, how does a teacher with a compact, concealed carry pistol approach an active shooter like Adam Lanza who has an assault rifle, a Glock 10mm, and body armor? Ok, it turns out Lanza didn't have body armor, but I wouldn't know that as I was approaching, so the prudent assumption would be that he was wearing body armor? Sounds like some serious, tactical training would definitely be warranted.


Cover, concealment, *your own body armor, *and believe it or not, a *Crimson Trace laser* or other device such a Leupold Delta Point (*Seen here on my HK P30S*)and yeah, a lot of good training. A 10mm is over kill, a 9mm is plenty capable if you know/learn how to use it.

With the laser you could get really tight on some bullet resistant cover, keeping a majority of you out of sight and put some rounds on target.

As I've said in the past...maybe not here I would assume any active/mass shooter is wearing armor and shoot for the head if it's a good target. If not, even shots on body armor will have some effect on target and change their prerogative. Also aiming for alternate points of weakness such as the pelvic girdle and extremities can turn the tide in your favor. If you disable the arm(s), they stop shooting or at least limit their ability. If you can take out the pelvis you've at least immobilized them that may make escape more possible. Most of these scumbags end their own lives when met with resistance. A couple rounds to the chest and extremities (even if wearing armor) might be enough to get them to end the situation on their own.

Yeah, handguns suck. But it's better than nothing and it's what we've got. I'd much rather have a side folding SBR'd AK in a back pack, but as I can't have that I'll stick with higher capacity 9mm offerings.


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## Smitty79

Training for sure. What do you experts think of competitions, particularly IDPA, to get the blood pumping to be more prepared?


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## Steve M1911A1

...And, you can never get enough training.
Tactical training from a well-respected teacher will be very helpful, even if it only serves to build confidence.

The right kinds of competition can be extremely useful, both in confidence building and in practice at "thinking on your feet."
First you need to build experience in facing already-known courses of fire, with a pre-made plan that you are prepared to follow.
Having done that, the truly most useful competitions, I found, were the "surprise matches," in which the course of fire was completely unknown until you were actually facing it.


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## VAMarine

Smitty79 said:


> Training for sure. What do you experts think of competitions, particularly IDPA, to get the blood pumping to be more prepared?


Its a good suplement to training but it will have a longer learning curve if not done in conjunction with proper instruction.

I love IDPA, it will deinitely help to get one out of their comfort zone and add some stress innoculation into one's diet and get people thinking about different scenarios and some time shooting from some unorthodox positions/circumstances.


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## Russ

jbultman said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am a teacher in Ohio and we just completed the ALICE training. However now there are rumors floating around the school of teachers CCW in the next year or so. I'm starting to do research about CCW and school and all that. I've been to my local shops and got multiple suggestions on guns.
> 
> For the Gun....
> I really want something that has two safeties, thumb and trigger or hammer block, just because I'm around kids and I don't want anything happening on accident (This is a requirement!!). I want and have access to 9mm b/c of owning another 9mm firearm. Anywho, the shop suggested;
> 
> Sig Sauer P938
> Smith and Wesson M&P9c
> Ruger SR9c
> 
> I was thinking that these might do the trick, but.... are they too big for ccw in school with dress cloths; tucked in oxfords and dress pants, occasionally jeans and a tucked in polo???
> 
> I would like to know if any of these are good for what I'm looking for.
> 
> And for holsters....
> I have been looking at Belly Bands, The Supertuck, Galco SkyOps, 5.11 Holster Shirt and Deep Concealment Holsters.
> But I think that I need to find the gun first before the holster.
> 
> Suggestions, Comments, Ideas, Thoughts?!?!?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> jbultman


Excluding the Sig P938 I believe your choice of weapons are on the biggie size for concealment especially as a teacher that will be moving around during the day.

The thickness is the most critical measurement when concealing.

You will have more options concealing a single stack over a double stack.

If you need a thumb safety I would consider the M&P Shield 9mm.

If you plan to wear jeans and pocket is an option and you want deep concealment and lightweight I would look at a 380 caliber.

I pocket conceal all day my Shield 9mm in loose fitting slacks (jeans will not work for most 9mm if you pocket) and honestly as a teacher you are very active moving around and if I was to buy another conceal weapon and a teacher I would look at the Beretta Pico which will be released for purchase this Summer or a Ruger LCP (both in 380)

Trust me I have pocket packed for 2 years and unless you sit at a desk all day I would think smaller (380 caliber) for the reduced weight and deep concealment options especially pocket which is a good option.

Russ

Russ


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## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Of those listed, the M&P9C would be my choice.... The M&P9C holds 12rds + an additional round in the chamber of 9mm, that's nothing to sneeze at. While Steve is pretty much right about everything he said about size and weight, in the environment that you are in, concealment is probably the biggest concern if you want to keep the same mode of dress so that means that you need to compromise on the gun. Depending on your budget, you can actually get a larger M&P and have the grip chopped down to the size of the 9c and have some of the beneficial traits of both the larger gun and the smaller gun.
> 
> What I would probably opt for is a *SmartCarry *that wears as such so that the grip of the pistol is above the waist line enough to make for easier access... I think the Smart Carry will be a reasonable compromise.
> 
> It will also allow you to carry a spare magazine, get the longer magazine of the full size M&P, if you ever need to reload, you'll want as much ammo as you can carry.
> 
> Stay away from the pocket guns if you can manage a larger gun. I would go no smaller than the M&P9c, a Glock 19, or maybe....maybe a Glock 26. Contrary to popular belief you CAN conceal a decent sized gun in Corporate Casual. I carry an HK P30 or P30L all day every day and I work around cops and other folks that you would expect to notice such things, granted I do not tuck in my polo shirts, but with a Smart Carry I have no reason to believe I could not pull it off.
> 
> Getting back to the guns in question, I think the M&P is the best priced and most common offering of the best quality to $$$ ratio with the features you want. The Sig 938 has too little capacity for the intended purpose of why you want to be able to carry. No one has ever gotten out of a gun fight and wished for less ammo. Spare magazines will never make up for a lesser capacity firearm and you want at least 10rds in the magazine.
> 
> Do carry the extra magazine(s).
> 
> How do you feel about a knife or other impact / contact weapon(s)?
> 
> This is the website for TDI
> Tactical Defense Institute -- Ohio Firearms - Gun - Rifle - Shotgun - Pistol - CCW - Concealed Carry Permit -- TDI --www.tdiohio.com -- Cincinnati - Dayton - Columbus - Cleveland - Lexington - Louisville - Wheeling - Huntington - Indianapolis
> 
> My wife and I have been there for several classes and it is time and money well spent. I doubt very much that you will find better training in Ohio. That being said, if you want some alternatives I would highly suggest.
> 
> *Mid Ohio Firearms Training Academy
> Little Miami Tactical
> 
> *I'm about wrapped up for the night, if you have any more questions etc. please feel free to ask.


First off, Little Miami Tactical is not far from my house at all, I might have to stop in on my way home sometime, and I'll be sure to check out TDI. As far as training, I recently purchased a M&P9 full size (but I don't want to chop down the grip) and am considering taking classes once school lets out for the summer (Two birds with one stone: Gun training and required Professional Development).

I do like the idea of the smartcarry holster, and I think it might work, but wouldn't a gun flopping around down there be a little awkward?
I don't know about the knife situation, (I wouldn't mind carrying it but I'm going to have to check, I wouldn't understand why not though. That's a good point!

After doing some research, and taking a step back. I really don't need a gun with 2 safeties, though it would be nice. I think one safty would suffice just fine. I just wouldn't have one in the chamber, and cock it when needed. I am not sure on this though, can someone comment please?

Are there any guns that would fit into this category? 
XD-m Compact/ Sub-compact
Kahr PM9/CM9
Beretta PX4 Compact/ Sub-compact
Kel-Tec PF-9
H&K USP compact
.......... just naming them off

For now lets say price isn't an option, for a child's safety I'll pay anything (but I would like to keep it reasonably priced and I know I'm contradicting myself). Basically I just want to make sure that I can carry a effective size gun and make it not seen in 'teacher attire'!! How hard can that be?! haha



paratrooper said:


> I'm curious as to where you'll be allowed to carry. I've heard this and that, in regards to teachers being allowed to carry, but the situations seem to vary quite a bit.
> 
> Are you saying that you will be allowed to carry on your person at all times while working? In the classroom, lunch room, walking the hallways, etc?
> 
> The way I heard it, certain teachers or administrators would have *ACCESS* to a firearm that would be secured somewhere on-site. I've yet to hear that teachers will be actually armed at all times while on campus.


Alright well as far as I know the deal is yes, you will be allowed to carry it on your person at all times, but you have to; you can't leave it anywhere! Even though my desk locks, legally I can't leave it in there for the risk of a student breaking in.

As for the guns in general, for all schools its different. But its my understanding that, you have to have your CCW, approval by the school board and school principal, and you have to notify the local sheriff's office.

Case in point, Springboro HS in Dayton is allowing 3 teachers to 'test' out this. Also I found that a sheriff has proposed allowing concealed carry in local school districts by retired police officers working as substitute teachers. Interesting!!



Russ said:


> If you need a thumb safety I would consider the M&P Shield 9mm.
> 
> If you plan to wear jeans and pocket is an option and you want deep concealment and lightweight I would look at a 380 caliber.
> 
> I pocket conceal all day my Shield 9mm in loose fitting slacks (jeans will not work for most 9mm if you pocket) and honestly as a teacher you are very active moving around and if I was to buy another conceal weapon and a teacher I would look at the Beretta Pico which will be released for purchase this Summer or a Ruger LCP (both in 380)
> 
> Trust me I have pocket packed for 2 years and unless you sit at a desk all day I would think smaller (380 caliber) for the reduced weight and deep concealment options especially pocket which is a good option.
> 
> Russ


I don't believe that the shield has a thumb safety just the M&P compact, but correct me if i'm wrong. The reason I considered 9mm was because of the full size 9mm I mentioned above. I am very active moving around, I teach 6th grade, so yes whatever I decide to get would need to accept (for lack of a better word) this set up.


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## Russ

jbultman said:


> First off, Little Miami Tactical is not far from my house at all, I might have to stop in on my way home sometime, and I'll be sure to check out TDI. As far as training, I recently purchased a M&P9 full size (but I don't want to chop down the grip) and am considering taking classes once school lets out for the summer (Two birds with one stone: Gun training and required Professional Development).
> 
> I do like the idea of the smartcarry holster, and I think it might work, but wouldn't a gun flopping around down there be a little awkward?
> I don't know about the knife situation, (I wouldn't mind carrying it but I'm going to have to check, I wouldn't understand why not though. That's a good point!
> 
> After doing some research, and taking a step back. I really don't need a gun with 2 safeties, though it would be nice. I think one safty would suffice just fine. I just wouldn't have one in the chamber, and cock it when needed. I am not sure on this though, can someone comment please?
> 
> Are there any guns that would fit into this category?
> XD-m Compact/ Sub-compact
> Kahr PM9/CM9
> Beretta PX4 Compact/ Sub-compact
> Kel-Tec PF-9
> H&K USP compact
> .......... just naming them off
> 
> For now lets say price isn't an option, for a child's safety I'll pay anything (but I would like to keep it reasonably priced and I know I'm contradicting myself). Basically I just want to make sure that I can carry a effective size gun and make it not seen in 'teacher attire'!! How hard can that be?! haha
> 
> Alright well as far as I know the deal is yes, you will be allowed to carry it on your person at all times, but you have to; you can't leave it anywhere! Even though my desk locks, legally I can't leave it in there for the risk of a student breaking in.
> 
> As for the guns in general, for all schools its different. But its my understanding that, you have to have your CCW, approval by the school board and school principal, and you have to notify the local sheriff's office.
> 
> Case in point, Springboro HS in Dayton is allowing 3 teachers to 'test' out this. Also I found that a sheriff has proposed allowing concealed carry in local school districts by retired police officers working as substitute teachers. Interesting!!
> 
> I don't believe that the shield has a thumb safety just the M&P compact, but correct me if i'm wrong. The reason I considered 9mm was because of the full size 9mm I mentioned above. I am very active moving around, I teach 6th grade, so yes whatever I decide to get would need to accept (for lack of a better word) this set up.


Steve

I own a Shield 9mm. I pocket conceal daily for 10 hours. I have owned the weapon for 1 year. I have shot 1,200 rounds through the weapon. I have also owned a Kahr CM 9 and Beretta Nano.

If I tell you my Shield has a manual safety don't question me. If your district requires a manual safety the Shield will meet that requirement plus it is a single stack which makes it easier to conceal over every other weapon you listed with the exception of the Sig P938.

The Sig however is a1911 cocked and lock which I would never own for a conceal carry weapons especially if pocket is an option.

Russ


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## SouthernBoy

One of the gun series you mentioned, the Kahr PM9/CM9, are subcompact guns and are quite small, though larger than pocket (mouse) guns. You might want to take a look at the Kahr K9. While it is classed as a compact, it is thin and very concealable. It is a true DAO (Double Action Only) pistol, without second strike capability, and has an excellent single stage trigger with only a 3/8" travel. There are no external safeties but it does have internal safeties. It's only downside is the fact that it is not a double stacked magazine gun so you are limited to eight rounds in the magazine.

Though I have three M&P's, I do not own a Shield. I have heard some very good things about this little pistol so I would think that one would be a member of your serious candidate list.


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## VAMarine

jbultman said:


> First off, Little Miami Tactical is not far from my house at all, I might have to stop in on my way home sometime, and I'll be sure to check out TDI. As far as training, I recently purchased a M&P9 full size (but I don't want to chop down the grip) and am considering taking classes once school lets out for the summer (Two birds with one stone: Gun training and required Professional Development).
> 
> I do like the idea of the smartcarry holster, and I think it might work, but wouldn't a gun flopping around down there be a little awkward?
> I don't know about the knife situation, (I wouldn't mind carrying it but I'm going to have to check, I wouldn't understand why not though. That's a good point!
> 
> After doing some research, and taking a step back. I really don't need a gun with 2 safeties, though it would be nice. I think one safty would suffice just fine. I just wouldn't have one in the chamber, and cock it when needed. I am not sure on this though, can someone comment please?
> 
> Are there any guns that would fit into this category?
> XD-m Compact/ Sub-compact
> Kahr PM9/CM9
> Beretta PX4 Compact/ Sub-compact
> Kel-Tec PF-9
> H&K USP compact
> .......... just naming them off
> 
> For now lets say price isn't an option, for a child's safety I'll pay anything (but I would like to keep it reasonably priced and I know I'm contradicting myself). Basically I just want to make sure that I can carry a effective size gun and make it not seen in 'teacher attire'!! How hard can that be?! haha


Regarding having one in the chamber and "cocking when needed" that's all around bad ju-ju. If the difference is a gun with thumb safety and round in chamber vs. no safety and un-chambered (to you) go with the safety and chambered (loaded) gun.

I can talk for days on end about why empty chamber is bad. Especially when coupled with deep concealment. Despite the fact that you will probably go all your days never having to draw the gun, the primary purpose of the gun is a defensive tool *RIGHT NOW!* when you need it. Not "Hold one, let me dig this out of my multiple layers of clothing, no let me try and chamber a round...OK NOW I'm ready to shoot back. Remember, if you NEED to draw, your first indication of that is going to be someone all ready shooting at you or around you. You are all ready going to be drastically behind in terms of action vs. reaction.

I will talk more about chambered carry later. But will just simply ask:

How will you chamber the gun if your other hand is tied up? Either by holding a door closed, shielding a student, fending off an attacker?



> I don't believe that the shield has a thumb safety just the M&P compact, but correct me if i'm wrong. The reason I considered 9mm was because of the full size 9mm I mentioned above. I am very active moving around, I teach 6th grade, so yes whatever I decide to get would need to accept (for lack of a better word) this set up.


As has been mentioned, it does have a safety, but that safety is in the same category as the Ruger SR Series. It's there to please the people that want one, but small enough not to get in the way for those that do not want one thus it won't "get in the way"










In my opinion, making it that small makes it a bad choice for those that want a thumb safety. I've been carrying a gun with some type of thumb safety for about the last nine years and I've seen a good many other shooters miss the smaller safeties. You don't want them to be too large, but you don't want them too small either.

You can get an idea of the "depth" of the safety lever on this HK45










And this M&P9C










vs the Sheild:












Russ said:


> Steve
> 
> I own a Shield 9mm. I pocket conceal daily for 10 hours. I have owned the weapon for 1 year. I have shot 1,200 rounds through the weapon. I have also owned a Kahr CM 9 and Beretta Nano.
> 
> *If I tell you my Shield has a manual safety don't question me*. If your district requires a manual safety the Shield will meet that requirement plus it is a single stack which makes it easier to conceal over every other weapon you listed with the exception of the Sig P938.
> 
> *The Sig however is a1911 cocked and lock* which I would never own for a conceal carry weapons especially if pocket is an option.
> 
> Russ


Three things:

1: Don't be a dick
2: The Sig 938 is not a 1911. Maybe you meant 1911 "style" in that it is cocked and locked. But a 1911 it is not.
3: See number 1.

To be continued....


----------



## denner

jbultman said:


> XD-m Compact/ Sub-compact
> Kahr PM9/CM9
> Beretta PX4 Compact/ Sub-compact
> Kel-Tec PF-9
> H&K USP compact
> .......... just naming them off


I was not going to chime in, but since you have expanded your options in which 2 mentioned above are owned and carried by me on a daily basis, here it goes. I agree wholeheartedly with VA's and Steve's suggestions. In my experience of over 20+ years of CCW, tucking in a shirt and concealed carry is going to be challenging, an un-tucked shirt leaves you with multiple choices for IWB carry from anywhere from full size to compact etc....If you are protecting kids, school staff, etc...I'd personally opt for a double stack 9mm pistol. I own and carry the Beretta PX4 Compact 15+1, 17+1 and subcompact 13+1, 16+1(I added the 3+ baseplate for grip and capacity) 17+1 mag works as well. All PX4 magazines are interchangeable, except of course you can't use the 13+1 subcompact mag's in the larger pistols. In my personal opinion the Beretta's, Sig's and the H&K hammer fired DA/SA de-cocker safety platform is the most forgiving platform when it comes to carting around loaded pistols in your pants, but to each their own. Personally, I converted my PX4's to "G" models in which you only have the first DA as a security measure, but the DA is plenty enough security for me, but if you train, the PX4's slide mounted safety when down renders the trigger inoperable until you push it up to fire. In your position this may be a very good option because if someone happened to get a hold of your pistol nothing would happen until they figured the pistol was on safety and knew how to disengage it and/or were familiar with Beretta's DA/SA platform. Rest assured, I would feel confident with these platforms in a school environment. Just my 2 cents on what I carry and how the pistols perform and what I prefer in capacity, but again, there are many other good pistol platforms and pistol options as well.


----------



## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Regarding having one in the chamber and "cocking when needed" that's all around bad ju-ju. If the difference is a gun with thumb safety and round in chamber vs. no safety and un-chambered (to you) go with the safety and chambered (loaded) gun.
> 
> I can talk for days on end about why empty chamber is bad. Especially when coupled with deep concealment. Despite the fact that you will probably go all your days never having to draw the gun, the primary purpose of the gun is a defensive tool *RIGHT NOW!* when you need it. Not "Hold one, let me dig this out of my multiple layers of clothing, no let me try and chamber a round...OK NOW I'm ready to shoot back. Remember, if you NEED to draw, your first indication of that is going to be someone all ready shooting at you or around you. You are all ready going to be drastically behind in terms of action vs. reaction.
> 
> I will talk more about chambered carry later. But will just simply ask:
> 
> How will you chamber the gun if your other hand is tied up? Either by holding a door closed, shielding a student, fending off an attacker?
> 
> As has been mentioned, it does have a safety, but that safety is in the same category as the Ruger SR Series. It's there to please the people
> 
> In my opinion, making it that small makes it a bad choice for those that want a thumb safety. I've been carrying a gun with some type of thumb safety for about the last nine years and I've seen a good many other shooters miss the smaller safeties. You don't want them to be too large, but you don't want them too small either.
> 
> You can get an idea of the "depth" of the safety lever on this HK45
> 
> And this M&P9C
> 
> vs the Sheild
> 
> To be continued....


I see where you are going here, carry one in the camber with a thumb and trigger safety. I agree, except in the HK45 and M&P9c that seems HUGE and the M&P (at least from the picture) flimsy? Is is not?

Is safe up or down with the thumb safety?

Whats your opinion on the deep concealment hostlers?



Steve M1911A1 said:


> You're a beginner. You need to learn with a full-size pistol. When you've established good shooting fundamentals, like sight picture, trigger control, and solid grip, then you might consider switching to something smaller.
> Compact pistols are hard to shoot well and accurately. They, and especially sub-compact (pocket-size) pistols, are experts' tools. You are not ready for that.
> 
> Generally speaking, carry the biggest, heaviest, largest-capacity pistol that you can hide reasonably well, all day long.
> Larger, heavier guns are easier to control, and easier to shoot accurately and quickly.
> And about large-capacity weapons, other people have already written that, when a fight is over, nobody has ever said, "I guess that I was carrying too much ammunition."


What about something like the SR9c, a Glock Compact or XDs with the extended mag and a grip extension? So that I'm practicing on a full size grip but the gun I would CCW w/o the grip extension?

Just a thought!


----------



## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ...What about something like the SR9c, a Glock Compact or XDs with the extended mag and a grip extension? So that I'm practicing on a full size grip but the gun I would CCW w/o the grip extension?
> Just a thought!


That would help.
But the issue of making things easier for the beginner has more facets than merely the size of the gun's grip.
Weight, which "absorbs" felt recoil, is also very important.
It is felt recoil which promotes both bad technique and flinching, so anything that can be done to lessen the apparent jolt will make a very big difference in the learning process.


----------



## pic

jbultman said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am a teacher in Ohio and we just completed the ALICE training. However now there are rumors floating around the school of teachers CCW in the next year or so. I'm starting to do research about CCW and school and all that. I've been to my local shops and got multiple suggestions on guns.
> 
> For the Gun....
> I really want something that has two safeties, thumb and trigger or hammer block, just because I'm around kids and I don't want anything happening on accident (This is a requirement!!). I want and have access to 9mm b/c of owning another 9mm firearm. Anywho, the shop suggested;
> 
> Sig Sauer P938
> Smith and Wesson M&P9c
> Ruger SR9c
> 
> I was thinking that these might do the trick, but.... are they too big for ccw in school with dress cloths; tucked in oxfords and dress pants, occasionally jeans and a tucked in polo???
> 
> I would like to know if any of these are good for what I'm looking for.
> 
> And for holsters....
> I have been looking at Belly Bands, The Supertuck, Galco SkyOps, 5.11 Holster Shirt and Deep Concealment Holsters.
> But I think that I need to find the gun first before the holster.
> 
> Suggestions, Comments, Ideas, Thoughts?!?!?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> jbultman


How many fail, or are turned away.Is Completing the training enough of a qualification to conceal carry in the school?
What s the 9 mm you currently own? How do you like your current 9mm


----------



## denner

Steve M1911A1 said:


> That would help.
> But the issue of making things easier for the beginner has more facets than merely the size of the gun's grip.
> Weight, which "absorbs" felt recoil, is also very important.
> It is felt recoil which promotes both bad technique and flinching, so anything that can be done to lessen the apparent jolt will make a very big difference in the learning process.


Ditto to that concerning recoil: but the grip or magazine extension for training and converting back to the non grip extension for CCW would be a no go. Why you ask? The pistol you will be carrying should always be in the same exact configuration you train with. If you go with an extension always go with an extension, if you go with the shorter grip always go with the shorter grip. The pistol and it's configuration you will be carrying is the one you should always use and train with. Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, Oh., as mentioned above, will square you away.


----------



## VAMarine

jbultman said:


> I see where you are going here, carry one in the camber with a thumb and trigger safety. I agree, except in the HK45 and M&P9c that seems HUGE and the M&P (at least from the picture) flimsy? Is is not?
> 
> Is safe up or down with the thumb safety?


Not so much that it is flimsy, but that it is harder to actuate with the thumb. Regarding carrying with a round in the chamber, a majority of more modern pistols are safe to be carried this way, thumb safety or not. The reason that I kind of like the thumb safety in your case is due to the deeper concealment aspect of your situation. Deep concealment holsters are typically not the most secure in terms of firearm fit and most are kind of one size fits "X" etc. If the gun were to be worn in a more exposed fashion, holsters with sloppy fit are so far down on the list and are typically the worst choice possible.

On the safety, it depends on the gun. The one's I illustrated above UP=safe / Down = Fire. It's a more instinctive motion to bring the thumb down rather than push up, especially when under stress or grasping an object.



> Whats your opinion on the deep concealment hostlers?


Generally, not good. But if you are limited in dress code, you're limited in dress code. I can get away with a medium to full size pistol with untucked polo. Most of the tuckable inside the pants holsters will have some device or mounting attachment that can be seen on the belt. I think someone mentioned the Crossbreed line of holsters? These are some of the worst in my opinion for tucked carry as the clips are very noticeable









Photo stolen from Google images.
A closer look at the clips and you'll see a big cross.

Will your average 6th grader know what it is? probably not. Will their parents? Maybe. Will the kids ask questions? Probably.

There are some other holsters out there that have different methods of attachment such as the *Galco SkyOps*










All you are supposed to be able to see are the three little teeth on the belt. This is probably what I would choose if in your shoes, either for a Glock 17 or 19. But that's me. That holster is not available for many guns. There might be some more "custom options" out there, but that would be a pretty easy combo to find.

As previously mentioned, the shirt holsters are problematic for access. The SmartCarry isn't the best fitting, but you also have a belt to help keep the gun in....you will be wearing a belt and with the smart carry you don't really need a gun belt.

What I would do, if the Sky Ops wasn't an option I was willing to explore would be to use a smart carry, a tucked in shirt using a uniform under belt to keep the shirt in place (after much practice to make sure I could still clear the gun with the belt in play.

As you get dressed, under shirt on first, then gun/Smart Carry combo, worn so that the grip of the gun is over the belt line of your pants, then over shirt; be it tucked in polo or oxford etc., shirt stay belt then pants and normal belt.

The access to the gun will need the support hand (your left hand assuming you are right handed) to grab and clear the shirt and your strong hand acesses the gun. yet another reason you want a round in the chamber, your support hand will be busy getting clothes out of the way of the gun.



> What about something like the SR9c, a Glock Compact or XDs with the extended mag and a grip extension? So that I'm practicing on a full size grip but the gun I would CCW w/o the grip extension?
> 
> Just a thought!


You can do that, and there is some benefit to getting the fuller grip. A lot of people will do that but I am of the mind to train how you fight and fight how you train. I know it's a tired, over regurgitated, over used, over-hyped saying. But it works. You really won't get that much benefit of the longer grip in practice other than the added ammunition.

As for the previously mentioned .380 pocket guns. Don't. Too little ammo, too little effectiveness. Very concealable and can be effective but you're all ready going to be under gunned in an active shooter situation just by having a compact handgun and not full sized pistol or a rifle etc.

Keep thinking, keep asking questions. No one should get offended at those that are legitimately looking to learn.


----------



## jbultman

pic said:


> How many fail, or are turned away.Is Completing the training enough of a qualification to conceal carry in the school?
> What s the 9 mm you currently own? How do you like your current 9mm


I actually stated earlier however its ok... Its not a pass or fail thing. Its more of a you have to have your CCW, approval by the school board and school principal, and you have to notify the local sheriff's office.
I currently own a M&P 9, I like it but the take up is a little gritty and the break is different. I actually ordered a APEX DCAEK kit and awaiting its arrival


----------



## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Not so much that it is flimsy, but that it is harder to actuate with the thumb. Regarding carrying with a round in the chamber, a majority of more modern pistols are safe to be carried this way, thumb safety or not. The reason that I kind of like the thumb safety in your case is due to the deeper concealment aspect of your situation. Deep concealment holsters are typically not the most secure in terms of firearm fit and most are kind of one size fits "X" etc. If the gun were to be worn in a more exposed fashion, holsters with sloppy fit are so far down on the list and are typically the worst choice possible.
> 
> Generally, not good. But if you are limited in dress code, you're limited in dress code. I can get away with a medium to full size pistol with untucked polo. Most of the tuckable inside the pants holsters will have some device or mounting attachment that can be seen on the belt. I think someone mentioned the Crossbreed line of holsters? These are some of the worst in my opinion for tucked carry as the clips are very noticeable
> 
> All you are supposed to be able to see are the three little teeth on the belt. This is probably what I would choose if in your shoes, either for a Glock 17 or 19. But that's me. That holster is not available for many guns. There might be some more "custom options" out there, but that would be a pretty easy combo to find.
> 
> Keep thinking, keep asking questions. No one should get offended at those that are legitimately looking to learn.


I was seriously looking at the SkyOps Holster I really like the idea behind it, and I think that is exactly what I need!! However the only guns that I would even consider that holster with would be the Glock 19/26/36, H&K USP Compact, Sig P239, Springfield XD(m) 3.8. 
I'm interested in the Springfield XD(m) 3.8 but would the compact fit?

Would you get the gun with a holster in mind, such as the skyops. Or get the gun then worry about the holster?

Thoughts?


----------



## pic

jbultman said:


> I actually stated earlier however its ok... Its not a pass or fail thing. Its more of a you have to have your CCW, approval by the school board and school principal, and you have to notify the local sheriff's office.
> I currently own a M&P 9, I like it but the take up is a little gritty and the break is different. I actually ordered a APEX DCAEK kit and awaiting its arrival


Will the other educators be aware if your carry side arm?

One other question . What are the age of the students or grades of the students?

I apologize if you already mentioned the fact, I didn't see whether their kindergarten age or high school age.

The young ones will obviously be less observant. Thanks.
I personally would go with a pocket carry, manual safety. But I have been shooting small guns for awhile . 
Maybe your choice should be an iwb with the guns grip riding just above the belt line.
Comfort for you will be a big issue also.something you will not be adjusting all day.
Good luck, 
Manual safety, exposed hammer if you go with an auto, much safer for being around the kids, IMO


----------



## pic

If I do an iwb with the metal clip over the belt i sometimes tuck my shirt in ,,but where the metal clip is attached to the belt ,I pull the shirt out very slightly and sometimes tuck the shirt under the metal clip depending on the shirt . It sounds sloppy but very unnoticeable


----------



## Cavere

+1 to training and shooting your choice. 

I am about to do something i never do and recommend a subcompact. Pocket carry is most likely your best option due to dress and career. 

The difference between most carry situations and teaching is that your students are constantly looking at you and may be more likely to notice printing.


----------



## Survivor

I have read the previous posts and don't remember seeing this; what grade level do you teach? I ask because I'm curious as to who you feel would be the most likely to notice a gun, students or co-workers? I would imagine that if the school district has embraced concealled carry by their staff, most would understand the need for secrecy and not say anything even if they did notice. I don't think you would have much to worry about if you were teaching grade-schoolers. Middle-schoolers are a bit nosey and high-schoolers will definitely give you the once over.
I tend to look at things a bit differently than most and used a different approach when choosing my mode of carry and firearm. I started with "HOW" I would conceal a gun. I have to conceal around a "dress code" as well. So, once I determined how I would dress, I started looking for firearms that would work under those circumstances. I then took Steve's approach and looked for the largest gun I could shoot well that I could hide. I suggest that in the interim between now and when you intend to start carrying, that you push the dress code to it's limits, that's what I did. See how far you can stray from your current "normal" before your superiors call you on it. Even a small change in how you dress can have a great impact on what and how you carry at work. In my case, just wearing my work polo untucked opened many more doors for me. There are many dress type shirts that have a squared bottom hem that still look semi-professional untucked. An untucked shirt would make your gun print a little less if worn on your hip and make drawing your firearm much easier in the event you needed to. 
With regards to the type of firearm and round capacity, I will offer this analogy...shoes. You see alot of commercials for name brands; your friends will tell you what they consider the best; but you won't know what's best for you until they're on your feet and you've walked in them. You've already been given the best advice, shoot as many guns as you can until you find the one that fits. Don't get sucked in by brand names or sales pitches.
I don't know if any of this will help, but there it is. You have received plenty of good advice prior to my post. Best of luck and stay safe.


----------



## TheLAGuy

So you guys think that manual safeties are lacking?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> So you guys think that manual safeties are lacking?


Not me.
_If you train to remember to press the safety lever to "off,"_ as I have when shooting a 1911, it is no problem at all.
In fact, the downward pressure that my thumb maintains on the 1911's safety lever actually adds to the stabilization of the pistol, and helps with recoil control.

However, my every-day carry (EDC) is a double-action-only (DAO) semi-auto, without any safety lever.
Since I pocket carry, I feel that a gun which replaces the safety lever with a long, somewhat stiff trigger action will be safer: There's no safety to wiggle to "off" unexpectedly.
(I have not yet found a pocket holster which properly secures a pistol's safety lever, the way a properly-designed belt holster can.)

Manipulation of the safety lever is just another thing to learn, along with grip, trigger control, recoil control, and sight acquisition.
A beginner _may_ be better served by having a light-action DAO pistol, without a safety lever to think about.


----------



## TheLAGuy

I have a px4 storm type f, and TBH, I usually just have the safety off. locked up with a full magazine right next to it (in case).

I'd like to possibly get a glock but I'm somewhat of a newbie to guns, I do like the safety and the DA/SA to see what I'm dealing with... Does that make sense?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Yes, *TheLAGuy*, it makes sense.
The safety is a visual reminder that the gun is "safe."

The problem is that you would now be relying on that mechanical safety, to make certain that your pistol is "safe."
That's the part that doesn't work.

The safety lever is merely a mechanism, and you must not allow a mere mechanism to be your "safety."
Following that path leads to complacency, and complacency leads to mistakes and negligent discharges.

The better method is to think of a gun as _never_ being "safe." Remember: "Treat all guns as if they are always loaded (and ready to fire)."
That places the onus for real safety upon your brain, which is the one and only, true "safety mechanism."

If you see things this way, the factory-issued Glock, with absolutely no safety lever, is perfectly "safe."


----------



## jbultman

pic said:


> Will the other educators be aware if your carry side arm?
> 
> One other question . What are the age of the students or grades of the students?
> 
> I apologize if you already mentioned the fact, I didn't see whether their kindergarten age or high school age.
> 
> The young ones will obviously be less observant. Thanks.
> I personally would go with a pocket carry, manual safety. But I have been shooting small guns for awhile .
> Maybe your choice should be an iwb with the guns grip riding just above the belt line.
> Comfort for you will be a big issue also.something you will not be adjusting all day.
> Good luck,
> Manual safety, exposed hammer if you go with an auto, much safer for being around the kids, IMO





Survivor said:


> I have read the previous posts and don't remember seeing this; what grade level do you teach? I ask because I'm curious as to who you feel would be the most likely to notice a gun, students or co-workers? I would imagine that if the school district has embraced concealled carry by their staff, most would understand the need for secrecy and not say anything even if they did notice. I don't think you would have much to worry about if you were teaching grade-schoolers. Middle-schoolers are a bit nosey and high-schoolers will definitely give you the once over.
> I tend to look at things a bit differently than most and used a different approach when choosing my mode of carry and firearm. I started with "HOW" I would conceal a gun. I have to conceal around a "dress code" as well. So, once I determined how I would dress, I started looking for firearms that would work under those circumstances. I then took Steve's approach and looked for the largest gun I could shoot well that I could hide. I suggest that in the interim between now and when you intend to start carrying, that you push the dress code to it's limits, that's what I did. See how far you can stray from your current "normal" before your superiors call you on it. Even a small change in how you dress can have a great impact on what and how you carry at work. In my case, just wearing my work polo untucked opened many more doors for me. There are many dress type shirts that have a squared bottom hem that still look semi-professional untucked. An untucked shirt would make your gun print a little less if worn on your hip and make drawing your firearm much easier in the event you needed to.
> With regards to the type of firearm and round capacity, I will offer this analogy...shoes. You see alot of commercials for name brands; your friends will tell you what they consider the best; but you won't know what's best for you until they're on your feet and you've walked in them. You've already been given the best advice, shoot as many guns as you can until you find the one that fits. Don't get sucked in by brand names or sales pitches.
> I don't know if any of this will help, but there it is. You have received plenty of good advice prior to my post. Best of luck and stay safe.


I figured I would answer this again, combine it all and elaborate more...

I am a 9 year teacher at a school district in Ohio and I teach 6th grade. I have anywhere from 24-27 students in class, ages from 11-12. Now, the other teachers will know about who is carrying and who isn't. As far as the CCW, you have to have to have it, along with approval by the school board and school principal, and then you have to notify the local sheriff's office.

I will think about modifying my dress and 'stretching' it a little *but* I have to wear dress pants and an oxford (no tie), tucked in Monday-Thursday. Friday however is a little different I'm allowed to wear jeans and a polo. I haven't tried untucking my shirt but, I don't think it will matter because of my dress M-TH.

I do know I will going to the range and trying out as many as I possibly can!!!


----------



## jbultman

Now with all this in mind would you recommend getting something similar to the CCW I'm looking at, completely different or does it even matter?


----------



## TheLAGuy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yes, *TheLAGuy*, it makes sense.
> The safety is a visual reminder that the gun is "safe."
> 
> The problem is that you would now be relying on that mechanical safety, to make certain that your pistol is "safe."
> That's the part that doesn't work.
> 
> The safety lever is merely a mechanism, and you must not allow a mere mechanism to be your "safety."
> Following that path leads to complacency, and complacency leads to mistakes and negligent discharges.
> 
> The better method is to think of a gun as _never_ being "safe." Remember: "Treat all guns as if they are always loaded (and ready to fire)."
> 
> That places the onus for real safety upon your brain, which is the one and only, true "safety mechanism."
> 
> If you see things this way, the factory-issued Glock, with absolutely no safety lever, is perfectly "safe."


So would you take a glock over a beretta px4 storm type f?


----------



## jbultman

TheLAGuy said:


> So would you take a glock over a beretta px4 storm type f?


Whats the type f part in the 'beretta px4 storm type f'?


----------



## TheLAGuy

Beretta Px4 Storm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it has the safety. MA / DA.....


----------



## jdeere9750

TheLAGuy said:


> it has the safety. MA / DA.....


I think he means SA/DA (Single Action/Double Action).


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> So would you take a glock over a beretta px4 storm type f?


Dude, stop hi-jacking this thread with your Glock or Beretta BS. You've asked this question enough in every other thread you've started. Take the conversation back to one of those threads if you want to talk about that particular topic...

LIke this one: http://www.handgunforum.net/general-semi-auto/32719-beretta-glock.html


----------



## TheLAGuy

Will do! Sorry VAMarine....


----------



## pic

I have been through it. dark pleated dress pants, POCKET gun that you can shoot well, 40 or a 9 mm. 
I sometimes carried a glock 27, 10 round, unchambered.but I live in NY , your options may be better as far as the amount of rounds carried In a handgun. 
chances are in a school situation there will be more of a warning, enough time to pull the gun and rack the slide.
Your pocket will not be as scrutinized as your waist line. I have never been asked about whats in my pocket?
Carry along the waistline, I have been busted a few time, just be a bump or brush, a friendly touch.
Nobody reaches down and touches your pocket area.. it's to close to your fly,lol. just kidding.
With todays, cell phones, car keys, everybody' pockets are full.lol.
just get a good pocket holster that will not print. along with the dark pleated pants, you will be comfortable all day.
just make sure to use only the pocket for the gun.
If I had to stand up and give a presentation while walking around more closely to the students. these are older people 20's 30's I would sometime take a set of keys and slide them in front of the holster just to offset a possible print , but remove them later. try it you'll like it ,again IMO


----------



## jbultman

pic said:


> I have been through it. dark pleated dress pants, POCKET gun that you can shoot well, 40 or a 9 mm.
> I sometimes carried a glock 27, 10 round, unchambered.but I live in NY , your options may be better as far as the amount of rounds carried In a handgun.
> chances are in a school situation there will be more of a warning, enough time to pull the gun and rack the slide.
> Your pocket will not be as scrutinized as your waist line. I have never been asked about whats in my pocket?
> Carry along the waistline, I have been busted a few time, just be a bump or brush, a friendly touch.
> Nobody reaches down and touches your pocket area.. it's to close to your fly,lol. just kidding.
> With todays, cell phones, car keys, everybody' pockets are full.lol.
> just get a good pocket holster that will not print. along with the dark pleated pants, you will be comfortable all day.
> just make sure to use only the pocket for the gun.
> If I had to stand up and give a presentation while walking around more closely to the students. these are older people 20's 30's I would sometime take a set of keys and slide them in front of the holster just to offset a possible print , but remove them later. try it you'll like it ,again IMO


If I were to consider this option, how small technically is a pocket gun? What size barrel? Rounds? And real quality gun options?

What do you think the advantages are for a pocket gun over a larger say xdm subcompact on your hip? Disadvantages?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to assess, evaluate, compare and contrast the options I have to get the best possible gun for me in the classroom scenario. Thanks


----------



## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> If I were to consider this option, how small technically is a pocket gun? What size barrel? Rounds? And real quality gun options?
> 
> What do you think the advantages are for a pocket gun over a larger say xdm subcompact on your hip? Disadvantages?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to assess, evaluate, compare and contrast the options I have to get the best possible gun for me in the classroom scenario. Thanks


Pocket guns, also known as "mouse" guns, are exemplified by the Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P3AT, and Taurus 738 TCP. These generally have 6+1 round capacity. In my opinion, they are not the best for your needs and purposes. They make very good BUG's (Back Up Guns), but not the best primary carry guns. The posters on this thread have given you excellent suggestions and it also appears you are doing your best to soak all of it up. I would stay with something along the lines of what you have been considering before the mention of pocket guns. Just my opinion.

I have a good friend who has gone from a belt holster for his gen3 Glock 19 to an inside the waist holster. He likes this and says it's comfortable. His draw is noticeably slower, however. If he continues on this path, he will pick up speed. The fact that you're hampered by dress is your major impediment. I've never been in this situation so I am pretty clueless as to what I might want to do and what sort of options would be available to me. But as for the gun, I would stay in the subcompact to compact range and if at all possible, a double stacked magazine.


----------



## mikemc53

Here is my two cents (probably only worth about a penny, actually) but do please take it with the requisite grain of salt. I have not been carrying very long and I am no gun expert by any means but I did want to mention my experience(s), just for reference.

I am a small guy so coverage/printing is a concern. I carry a SCCY CPX-2 (9mm) which would probably be considered a sub-compact as it's a bit large for pocket carry. I carry with an inexpensive IWB, tuckable, Ace Case holster. I usually wear business attire but as the weather warms I often remove the coat, so you'd be looking at dress slacks and dress shirt, minimum. The gun/holster combo has not been an issue as far as anyone noticing or mentioning and, trust me, the environment that I'm normally a part of is definitely the type that would bring about comments were there any printing issues. I carry at all times and in all places where there will be no "legal" issues and have never been outed for carrying. Also should note that I am pretty intolerant of any physical discomfort and had concerns when I first started carrying around the house (before CPL arrived), but I actually feel perfectly comfortable with the set-up that I have been using.

As I said at the beginning of this post...just my two cents. Whatever you choose to do - Good Luck - and a thumbs up for helping to guide our next generation(s) forward.


----------



## jbultman

SouthernBoy said:


> The posters on this thread have given you excellent suggestions and it also appears you are doing your best to soak all of it up. I would stay with something along the lines of what you have been considering before the mention of pocket guns. Just my opinion.
> 
> The fact that you're hampered by dress is your major impediment. I've never been in this situation so I am pretty clueless as to what I might want to do and what sort of options would be available to me. But as for the gun, I would stay in the subcompact to compact range and if at all possible, a double stacked magazine.


That's exactly what I'm trying to do, just gather all the information that I can and make my decision from there. Right now I am leaning towards what most people on here have been saying. Double stack, compact or Sub-Compact in a tuckable IWB holster or SmartCarrt (-esk) deep concealment holster.

Specifically the XDm 3.8 Sub-compact. M&P Compact (possibly the shield), Glock compact/ sub-compact, and PX4 compact/ sub-compact. Not Quite sure on the caliber.* Another teacher brought up the idea "with a possible miss in a shooter scenario, what should I be expecting a bullet to do? Hit the wall and imbed it self with in, bounce off the lockers or go completely though the wall and into the classroom?" Which leaves us questioning caliber, .22, 9mm, .380, .40 or .45?
*
Ugh so many decisions!!

I don't really know what my next step is, other than take a trip to the store and talk some more with the people there, as well as hold and shoot as many as I can!!



mikemc53 said:


> Here is my two cents (probably only worth about a penny, actually) but do please take it with the requisite grain of salt. I have not been carrying very long and I am no gun expert by any means but I did want to mention my experience(s), just for reference.
> 
> I am a small guy so coverage/printing is a concern. I carry a SCCY CPX-2 (9mm) which would probably be considered a sub-compact as it's a bit large for pocket carry. I carry with an inexpensive IWB, tuckable, Ace Case holster. I usually wear business attire but as the weather warms I often remove the coat, so you'd be looking at dress slacks and dress shirt, minimum. The gun/holster combo has not been an issue as far as anyone noticing or mentioning and, trust me, the environment that I'm normally a part of is definitely the type that would bring about comments were there any printing issues. I carry at all times and in all places where there will be no "legal" issues and have never been outed for carrying. Also should note that I am pretty intolerant of any physical discomfort and had concerns when I first started carrying around the house (before CPL arrived), but I actually feel perfectly comfortable with the set-up that I have been using.
> 
> As I said at the beginning of this post...just my two cents. Whatever you choose to do - Good Luck - and a thumbs up for helping to guide our next generation(s) forward.


Don't sell yourself short, this was actually really helpful for what I'm looking for cloths wise. I'm really not sure on what I'm going to as far as that is concerned other than the usual. Do you think that if you were in a classroom your gun would be concealed enough that the kids won't call you out on it? bending down, sitting, walking, rotating, and with your hands above your head

How do you like your SCCY?


----------



## jdeere9750

jbultman said:


> Do you think that if you were in a classroom your gun would be concealed enough that the kids won't call you out on it? bending down, sitting, walking, rotating, and with your hands above your head


Don't forget that you can slightly modify your movements to help keep your weapon concealed. Examples: Reach high over your head with the arm opposite of where you carry your gun. (If you carry IWB on your right hip, reach with your left arm.) Bend with your knees, not your waist. Hang your coat (if you have one) over the back of your chair so that it helps to conceal the gun when you're seated. They're small changes, but they make a pretty big difference.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ...[W]hat should I be expecting a bullet to do? Hit the wall and imbed it self with in, bounce off the lockers or go completely though the wall and into the classroom?" Which leaves us questioning caliber, .22, 9mm, .380, .40 or .45?...


What should you expect your bullet to do?
_You should not carry a pistol until you can have a strong expectation that your bullet will hit that at which you aimed it!_

In a crowded environment like a classroom full of panicked students, if it ever comes to that, you must first have learned how to "pick your shots"-including knowing when _not_ to shoot. This is one of the things that a good tactical instructor should teach you. (And if he doesn't, ask!)
There are techniques for shooting "safely" in a crowded environment. For instance, one of them is to kneel or lie down and shoot upwards, causing your miss to pass over most bystanders' heads. (This may not work, if there is a second floor above you.)

In any case, you can't choose the caliber based upon the expectation of a miss or a wild shot.
You choose the caliber based upon whether or not it will stop the attack. Then you learn to shoot well enough that you have confidence that your shots will not be wild, and that they will not miss. (Of course some shots will miss, or be marginally effective, but you train to do your best to keep that from happening.)


----------



## Charliefox

Whatever gun you choose, it has to fit three major categories:

1. Ultra-concealable
2. Able to be carried all day, every day
3. Powerful enough to stop a determined threat

I think any of the guns listed will do the job well. I'm partial to the Kahr CM9. It's 9mm, lightweight, very flat, only two external controls (slide release and magazine release), has a grat trigger pull and carries 7 rounds. It can be concealed just about anywhere on the body in many different clothing styles (a Super Tuck holster would be just the thing, depending on your mode of dress).


----------



## TheLAGuy

The beretta nano might be a good selection too my friend!


----------



## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> Pocket guns, also known as "mouse" guns, are exemplified by the Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P3AT, and Taurus 738 TCP. These generally have 6+1 round capacity. In my opinion, they are not the best for your needs and purposes. They make very good BUG's (Back Up Guns), but not the best primary carry guns. The posters on this thread have given you excellent suggestions and it also appears you are doing your best to soak all of it up. I would stay with something along the lines of what you have been considering before the mention of pocket guns. Just my opinion.
> 10
> I have a good friend who has gone from a belt holster for his gen3 Glock 19 to an inside the waist holster. He likes this and says it's comfortable. His draw is noticeably slower, however. If he continues on this path, he will pick up speed. The fact that you're hampered by dress is your major impediment. I've never been in this situation so I am pretty clueless as to what I might want to do and what sort of options would be available to me. But as for the gun, I would stay in the subcompact to compact range and if at all possible, a double stacked magazine.


10 round glock 40 is a mouse gun?


----------



## VAMarine

pic said:


> 10 round glock 40 is a mouse gun?


I fail to see where he mentions any 10rd Glock .40s, only pocket guns, which a Glock 27 really isn't one of.


----------



## pic

VAMarine said:


> I fail to see where he mentions any 10rd Glock .40s, only pocket guns, which a Glock 27 really isn't one of.


Start at post # 45


----------



## VAMarine

pic said:


> Start at post # 45


yeah, still not seeing it.

Any way, like I told the other guy that's now banned. Don't be a dick.

If you don't want to take the time to try and help someone, that's fine. If you don't want to contribute you can take the silent route. And if you are going to try and say that someone said "X", you might want to try and quote the relevant material to support your argument.

You guys can argue and bicker all you want, but do it in a polite manner and try and stick to what people are actually saying.

Not saying that it wasn't said, but I'm not seeing it.

Give the new guys a break (unless they've ran out of rope like some do), everyone's got to start somewhere and if they botch some terminology, lead them down the right path and educate them.

:smt1099


----------



## pic

VAMarine said:


> yeah, still not seeing it.
> 
> Any way, like I told the other guy that's now banned. Don't be a dick.
> 
> If you don't want to take the time to try and help someone, that's fine. If you don't want to contribute you can take the silent route. And if you are going to try and say that someone said "X", you might want to try and quote the relevant material to support your argument.
> 
> You guys can argue and bicker all you want, but do it in a polite manner and try and stick to what people are actually saying.
> 
> Not saying that it wasn't said, but I'm not seeing it.
> 
> Give the new guys a break (unless they've ran out of rope like some do), everyone's got to start somewhere and if they botch some terminology, lead them down the right path and educate them.
> 
> :smt1099


Understood , thanks, great forum, I do get carried away. My fault


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> 10 round glock 40 is a mouse gun?


Where did I say that??


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> Start at post # 45


I don't see it and post #45 is yours. I know better... believe me. I own four Glocks in .40S&W so unless I made some typo, there is no way I would claim mouse gun status for any Glock.


----------



## TheLAGuy

It was more implied than anything else.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Charliefox said:


> Whatever gun you choose, it has to fit three major categories:
> 
> 1. Ultra-concealable
> 2. Able to be carried all day, every day
> 3. Powerful enough to stop a determined threat
> 
> I think any of the guns listed will do the job well. I'm partial to the Kahr CM9. It's 9mm, lightweight, very flat, only two external controls (slide release and magazine release), has a grat trigger pull and carries 7 rounds. It can be concealed just about anywhere on the body in many different clothing styles (a Super Tuck holster would be just the thing, depending on your mode of dress).


If I may offer a correction to your enumerated list, the most important factors for a defensive firearm are in order;

1. Reliability. The gun must go bang every time, or as close as possible to every time. If it doesn't, the next two criteria are moot.

2. Practical accuracy. This is the ability of the gun/shooter combination to deliver rounds to target consistently, confidently, and accurately. If you cannot do this, the next criteria matters not.

3. Power. The ability of the caliber and load to incapacitate your assailant as quickly as possible so that they can no longer attempt to do you harm.

Hope this helps.


----------



## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> I don't see it and post #45 is yours. I know better... believe me. I own four Glocks in .40S&W so unless I made some typo, there is no way I would claim mouse gun status for any Glock.


I'm sorry buddy, I was in a hurray, my fault , just got home, 
You are correct.


----------



## SouthernBoy

TheLAGuy said:


> It was more implied than anything else.


No inference on my part. Please cite the post # so I can take a look.


----------



## VAMarine

Lets all get back on topic, everyone just take 10 and remember that it's important to read what people ARE saying and make sure you're replying to the right person and in an appropriate manner.


----------



## VAMarine

jbultman said:


> That's exactly what I'm trying to do, just gather all the information that I can and make my decision from there. Right now I am leaning towards what most people on here have been saying. Double stack, compact or Sub-Compact in a tuckable IWB holster or SmartCarrt (-esk) deep concealment holster.
> 
> Specifically the XDm 3.8 Sub-compact. M&P Compact (possibly the shield), Glock compact/ sub-compact, and PX4 compact/ sub-compact. Not Quite sure on the caliber.* Another teacher brought up the idea "with a possible miss in a shooter scenario, what should I be expecting a bullet to do? Hit the wall and imbed it self with in, bounce off the lockers or go completely though the wall and into the classroom?" Which leaves us questioning caliber, .22, 9mm, .380, .40 or .45?
> *
> Ugh so many decisions!!
> 
> I don't really know what my next step is, other than take a trip to the store and talk some more with the people there, as well as hold and shoot as many as I can!!
> 
> Don't sell yourself short, this was actually really helpful for what I'm looking for cloths wise. I'm really not sure on what I'm going to as far as that is concerned other than the usual. Do you think that if you were in a classroom your gun would be concealed enough that the kids won't call you out on it? bending down, sitting, walking, rotating, and with your hands above your head
> 
> How do you like your SCCY?





Steve M1911A1 said:


> What should you expect your bullet to do?
> _You should not carry a pistol until you can have a strong expectation that your bullet will hit that at which you aimed it!_
> 
> In a crowded environment like a classroom full of panicked students, if it ever comes to that, you must first have learned how to "pick your shots"-including knowing when _not_ to shoot. This is one of the things that a good tactical instructor should teach you. (And if he doesn't, ask!)
> There are techniques for shooting "safely" in a crowded environment. For instance, one of them is to kneel or lie down and shoot upwards, causing your miss to pass over most bystanders' heads. (This may not work, if there is a second floor above you.)
> 
> In any case, you can't choose the caliber based upon the expectation of a miss or a wild shot.
> You choose the caliber based upon whether or not it will stop the attack. Then you learn to shoot well enough that you have confidence that your shots will not be wild, and that they will not miss. (Of course some shots will miss, or be marginally effective, but you train to do your best to keep that from happening.)


Steve pretty much nailed it. To add to his post I would also say that any projectile and act strangely if your intended target is missed. There's not one round that's really going to work better where misses are concerned.

Stick with the 9mm for now, there's not much other calibers do better and if you're looking at the smaller guns the 9mm will hold one to several rounds more than guns of the same size in a higher caliber.

I will also say that larger guns are typically easier to shoot well (and more accurately) than smaller guns.


----------



## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Steve pretty much nailed it. To add to his post I would also say that any projectile and act strangely if your intended target is missed. There's not one round that's really going to work better where misses are concerned.
> 
> Stick with the 9mm for now, there's not much other calibers do better and if you're looking at the smaller guns the 9mm will hold one to several rounds more than guns of the same size in a higher caliber.
> 
> I will also say that larger guns are typically easier to shoot well (and more accurately) than smaller guns.


Once Steve said "You should not carry a pistol until you can have a strong expectation that your bullet will hit that at which you aimed it!" then "shooting "safely" in a crowded environment" I went *DUH* it was a stupid question!! And I saw the answer coming once I started reading his comment.

Back to guns, I e-mailed Galco and their Skyops Holster fits the Xdm 3.8 subcompact. Thats one I am looking at! Also the Glock 19/26/36 and H&K USP Compact..

Now in an earlier post someone metioned SCCY; yes, no, thoughts, opinions? I haven't really heard of them


----------



## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ..._n an earlier post someone metioned SCCY; yes, no, thoughts, opinions? I haven't really heard of them_


_
When SCCY's pistols first came out, they developed a reputation for, well, fragility.
To that, I must add that their safety levers operated in the wrong direction, for what I consider to be good shooting technique.

I don't know much more than that, except that they now sell pistols without safety levers. I approve of that.
Their guns seem to have slide stops and slide-stop levers, which I believe to be a good thing...if the pistol stays open after its last shot.

More than that, deponent sayeth not._


----------



## jbultman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> When SCCY's pistols first came out, they developed a reputation for, well, fragility.
> To that, I must add that their safety levers operated in the wrong direction, for what I consider to be good shooting technique.
> 
> I don't know much more than that, except that they now sell pistols without safety levers. I approve of that.
> Their guns seem to have slide stops and slide-stop levers, which I believe to be a good thing...if the pistol stays open after its last shot.
> 
> More than that, deponent sayeth not.


I found out this morning that one of my friends from the back in the day has one and is willing to let me shoot it. From what he says, the Gen 1 was a no go just like Steve said it was fragile and just plain not good. But he says that the Gen 2 is much better and they fixed the problems that they had in the Gen 1.

I don't know when we will have the time to get together to shoot it, but i'm really interested to see how it goes and shoots.

As of now I'm leaning towards the XDm subcompact, so we will just have to see


----------



## Survivor

I also own and currently carry a SCCY CPX-2 (Gen2). I initially had some reservations about this gun when I purchased it. Who are they and is this gun "CHEAP" or just inexpensive. Prior to carrying it, I put a little over 200 rounds through it. I used a variety of ammo to see if it would have any issues; there were none. I am very pleased with it and do trust my life to it. Since I started carrying it, I have put another 200 or so rounds through it and still no failures. Does this make it a great gun, one to rival one of the big name brands? Only time will tell.
With regards to the other firearms you're interested in, the only one I have some experience with is the M&P 9c. It is a fine weapon. I prefer the SCCY because it had the features I was looking for. It is easy to conceal, it is accurate, it has a very manageable recoil for such a light gun (15oz. empty), it is double action only (no manual safety), it has a trigger pull similar to my Ruger GP100 when I shoot it double action, and most of all - it works.
You also had concerns about revealing your gun while moving about in the classroom. In my line of work I do all of those things - bending, twisting, reaching, kneeling. I will offer this in response, don't worry about it. I am costantly in the public eye interacting with a wide range of individuals. Some who are so pro-gun that they would not think twice about enthusiastically and publically asking me all about what I'm carrying, to those "Soccer Mom" types who would readily accuse me of being a terrorist and want to see me taken away in chains. No one has noticed a thing. For the most part you will be dealing with 10-11 year olds who probably won't be paying that much attention to you. By that I mean how you're dressed or if you're carrying...no offense.


----------



## jbultman

Survivor said:


> I also own and currently carry a SCCY CPX-2 (Gen2). I initially had some reservations about this gun when I purchased it. Who are they and is this gun "CHEAP" or just inexpensive. Prior to carrying it, I put a little over 200 rounds through it. I used a variety of ammo to see if it would have any issues; there were none. I am very pleased with it and do trust my life to it. Since I started carrying it, I have put another 200 or so rounds through it and still no failures. Does this make it a great gun, one to rival one of the big name brands? Only time will tell.
> With regards to the other firearms you're interested in, the only one I have some experience with is the M&P 9c. It is a fine weapon. I prefer the SCCY because it had the features I was looking for. It is easy to conceal, it is accurate, it has a very manageable recoil for such a light gun (15oz. empty), it is double action only (no manual safety), it has a trigger pull similar to my Ruger GP100 when I shoot it double action, and most of all - it works.
> You also had concerns about revealing your gun while moving about in the classroom. In my line of work I do all of those things - bending, twisting, reaching, kneeling. I will offer this in response, don't worry about it. I am costantly in the public eye interacting with a wide range of individuals. Some who are so pro-gun that they would not think twice about enthusiastically and publically asking me all about what I'm carrying, to those "Soccer Mom" types who would readily accuse me of being a terrorist and want to see me taken away in chains. No one has noticed a thing. For the most part you will be dealing with 10-11 year olds who probably won't be paying that much attention to you. By that I mean how you're dressed or if you're carrying...no offense.


What holster do you carry with it?

My main concern with the SCCY is the lack of knowledge, in general of this company and gun. I'm going to need something when called upon is going to work, is going to go BANG when I pull the trigger.


----------



## ResearchLabs

Have you considered the Kahr P380? Here's a review here. There's also some holster suggestions near the bottom. Great concealability.


----------



## Survivor

As I posted above, I was worried about this little known company also. So far, I am very satisfied with it. I took my wife and grandkids out shooting yesterday and put another 100 rounds through it. That makes just over 500 rounds since I bought it this past January and I have had no failures of any kind - it "Goes Bang". I guess the only problem I've encountered with it has been trying to find a fitted Kydex OWB holster for it (this is my preferred method of carry). The gun is so new that very few manufacturers have molds for it.
I currently carry it IWB in a Remora Holster. I have to admit that I'm very pleasantly surprised with this holster. It securely holds the gun in place, covers the entire trigger/trigger guard, and is very comfortable. The one big drawback with it is trying to re-holster the gun. Remora does make a holster with a reinforced top to address this, but I opted not to get it (see the "shoes" reference in my previous post).
Please don't let anything I've posted prevent you from getting out and shooting your friends's SCCY. I think you should still try out as many different guns as you can before you purchase. When you shoot the right gun for you...you'll know it. That's the one you should buy.


----------



## Smitty79

BrownSafe said:


> Have you considered the Kahr P380? Here's a review here. There's also some holster suggestions near the bottom. Great concealability.


I wouldn't buy a P380. The CM9 is cheaper and can still be put in a hip pocket holster, a good place for a teacher gun. Very secure and covert. Bigger gun would be nice, but I don't see how to keep the "kids" from figuring out that you have it. 
I shot mine for first time this weekend. I could consistently hit upper torso sized targets out of the box at 25yds. I am not a great shot. Very low recoil for "mouse" gun. I found it easier to shoot than an LCP and comparable for concealment. Stopping power of a 9mm over a 380.


----------



## TheLAGuy

I still think the Beretta Nano is 2nd to none!


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Smitty79 said:


> ...Bigger gun would be nice, but I don't see how to keep the "kids" from figuring out that you have it...


A best-quality "tuckable" holster, worn at "4:00," would be a good start.
Limiting the kids' physical access to your body would be an excellent second step. (No hugging!)

Once you have learned enough about personal-defense shooting to be able to successfully handle a properly powerful pocket pistol, that might be the third and final step.
(Alliteration: Ain't it wonderful? :yawinkle


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> I still think the Beretta Nano is 2nd to none!


Based on exactly what experience? You Got your first gun how long ago?


----------



## VAMarine

Steve M1911A1 said:


> A best-quality "tuckable" holster, worn at "4:00," would be a good start.
> Limiting the kids' physical access to your body would be an excellent second step. (No hugging!)
> 
> Once you have learned enough about personal-defense shooting to be able to successfully handle a properly powerful pocket pistol, that might be the third and final step.
> (Alliteration: Ain't it wonderful? :yawinkle


Agreed. It can be done. If I can get away with carrying a service pistol concealed in some of the places I do...so can you. Especially with a tuckable holster.


----------



## pic

VAMarine said:


> Agreed. It can be done. If I can get away with carrying a service pistol concealed in some of the places I do...so can you. Especially with a tuckable holster.


What have you pocket carried ,,that would fall into the category of powerful , maybe firepower ?.
Or maybe pocket carry is ,just not your thing which is ok.
Pocket carry is a whole new prospective that you can't just google.


----------



## VAMarine

pic said:


> What have you pocket carried ,,that would fall into the category of powerful , maybe firepower ?.
> Or maybe pocket carry is ,just not your thing which is ok.
> Pocket carry is a whole new prospective that you can't just google.


In the past I carried a Kahr PM40 and occasionally a .357 Magnum J-Frame. I've got some big legs so pocket carry doesn't work to great for me.

I've also pocket carried a couple different Colt and Sig .380s...not what I would consider high in fire power.

In terms of power, I think the 9mm Nano, Kahr PM9 / PM40, KelTec PF9 are decent enough guns, but they are severly lacking in capacity.

I can conceal a HK P30 (15rd 9mm) just as easily for the most part in a regular AIWB holster with an untucked polo shirt. I could probably hide a Glock 19 in the same spot and hide it under an untucked T shirt.

With a tuckable holster I could conceal quite a bit. I may have to go get a Smart Carry just to illustrate.

For the application in THIS thread, responding to an active shooter displaying intent on mass casualties, I want more than a pocket anything.

Absent a rifle, I'll take a double stack 9 that holds more than 10 shots.


----------



## denner

VAMarine said:


> For the application in THIS thread, responding to an active shooter displaying intent on mass casualties, I want more than a pocket anything.
> 
> Absent a rifle, I'll take a double stack 9 that holds more than 10 shots.


rayer:

In this scenario, which indeed any teacher could face, a pocket pistol maybe comfortable to conceal and carry, but in my opinion far from comforting.





 Check out this video in which the Middlefield Police engage a hostile armed with an AK. It takes at least 12 very good hits which I would presume to be .40's or 45's to drop this nut job.


----------



## pic

denner said:


> rayer:
> 
> In this scenario, which indeed any teacher could face, a pocket pistol maybe comfortable to conceal and carry, but in my opinion far from comforting.
> 
> Gunman Shooter James Gilkerson Fires On Police With AK47 of Middlefield Ohio [FULL VIDEO] - YouTube Check out this video in which the Middleton Police engage a hostile armed with an AK. It takes at least 12 very good hits which I would presume to be .40's or 45's to drop this guy. Pocket Pistol?


 I don't think it a would be impractical to have access to an AK OR AR. 
But it would be practical to have plan in place ,professionally, implicated by a certain accessibility plan.. 
VaMarine you're correct about the application to this thread I was off base .
I was just curious to confirm your pocket carry usability or should I say your unusable preferences. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's all good


----------



## VAMarine

pic said:


> I don't think it a would be impractical to have access to an AK OR AR.
> But it would be practical to have plan in place ,professionally, implicated by a certain accessibility plan..
> VaMarine you're correct about the application to this thread I was off base .
> I was just curious to confirm your pocket carry usability or should I say your unusable preferences. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> It's all good


Pocket carry has it's place, while some use it as a primary means of carry I typically do not advocate it as such unless that is the ONLY option. As a back up, I think it's fine. Again, it's not really my cup of tea for various reasons but for many its preferred.

I'd rather see someone pocket carry than not carry at all :mrgreen:


----------



## TheLAGuy

VAMarine said:


> Based on exactly what experience? You Got your first gun how long ago?


BAsed on the experience that I've "mandled" several different smaller guns. I think that's reason enough to think my thoughts are on point.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> BAsed on the experience that I've "mandled" several different smaller guns. I think that's reason enough to think my thoughts are on point.


The unpleasant implications inherent in the mash-up word "mandled" cause me to shudder.
Do you do it only to guns, or do you also use women in the same way?

Please stop injecting machismo, and its resultant social perversions, into every conversation.

Merely having handled-or fondled-a series of pistols does not equip you to suggest that any one of them is superior to any other of them.
In order to make a useful suggestion, you must first exhibit some shooting skill, and then you must amass some shooting experience.
At your level of knowledge, you may be competent to suggest that the pistol with which you are most familiar is both useful and reliable, and fits your own hand comfortably.
And that's all.


----------



## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> For the application in THIS thread, responding to an active shooter displaying intent on mass casualties, I want more than a pocket anything.
> 
> Absent a rifle, I'll take a double stack 9 that holds more than 10 shots.


Thanks for getting it back on task, from what I'm finding this is going to be exactly what I am going to need, well want. I just haven't a clue which one, there are so many to chose from!!

Do you think I'm going to need something with a thumb safety or should a trigger safety be enough?


----------



## denner

jbultman said:


> Thanks for getting it back on task, from what I'm finding this is going to be exactly what I am going to need, well want. I just haven't a clue which one, there are so many to chose from!!
> 
> Do you think I'm going to need something with a thumb safety or should a trigger safety be enough?


After reading this thread I would come to a couple conclusions or advice I'd contemplate. You have a M&P full size and I assume you are familiar with that platform. The logical choice, if you like the platform and are accustomed to the M&P series would be the M&P9c. It has adequate firepower(VA went into detail), the safety is not tiny*( VA went into detail) holster and carry options(VA went into detail). It's really not rocket science, you must find what fits you best and what you shoot the best and what you have confidence in carrying 5 days a week while on the job. In my mind there is no such thing as a trigger safety. I'd carry a Glock in a heartbeat, the Glock is a wonderful combat pistol, however, you must have a very good holster to cover the trigger if you consider this to be one pistol you are referring to as having a so called trigger safety and carrying it CCW.


----------



## jbultman

denner said:


> Ditto to that concerning recoil: but the grip or magazine extension for training and converting back to the non grip extension for CCW would be a no go. Why you ask? The pistol you will be carrying should always be in the same exact configuration you train with. If you go with an extension always go with an extension, if you go with the shorter grip always go with the shorter grip. The pistol and it's configuration you will be carrying is the one you should always use and train with. Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, Oh., as mentioned above, will square you away.


Well said.... I still haven't decided, but does anyone know or have a list of CC 9mm with a 10+ round magazine much like VAMarine and Steve described?


----------



## VAMarine

jbultman said:


> Thanks for getting it back on task, from what I'm finding this is going to be exactly what I am going to need, well want. I just haven't a clue which one, there are so many to chose from!!
> 
> Do you think I'm going to need something with a thumb safety or should a trigger safety be enough?


Foe me, it would depend on holster. If I had something that was properly molded for a specific firearm, I would be OK sans thumb safety, if I was using a Smart Carry or a holster shirt, belly band type deal, I would probably opt for the thumb safety.

As far as a list goes, this would be a good start. My preferences in bold.

Beretta: PX4 Compact & Subcompact, *92Compact*
Bersa: Thunder 9 Pro, Pro9 Compact
CZ: 2075 RAMI, P01, 75Compact
*Glock: 19, 26
*HK:* USP9C,* P2000, *P2000SK*, *P30 or P30S*. The P2000 and P30 are a little larger than the typical compact, just slightly larger than a Glock 19.
Ruger SR9C
*S&W M&P9 & M&P9C
**Walther PPQ
*Kel-tec P11
Sig Sauer: P229, *P224, M11A1*
Springfield: *XDM 3.8 Compact* / XD Sub Compact

There's some offerings from Taurus as well, but I would not recommend them.

For the most part, I'd stick with the following manufactures.

Beretta
Glock
HK
Sig Sauer
Smith & Wesson
Springfield Armory
Walther


----------



## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Foe me, it would depend on holster. If I had something that was properly molded for a specific firearm, I would be OK sans thumb safety, if I was using a Smart Carry or a holster shirt, belly band type deal, I would probably opt for the thumb safety.
> 
> As far as a list goes, this would be a good start. My preferences in bold.
> 
> Beretta: PX4 Compact & Subcompact, *92Compact*
> Bersa: Thunder 9 Pro, Pro9 Compact
> CZ: 2075 RAMI, P01, 75Compact
> *Glock: 19, 26
> *HK:* USP9C,* P2000, *P2000SK*, *P30 or P30S*. The P2000 and P30 are a little larger than the typical compact, just slightly larger than a Glock 19.
> Ruger SR9C
> *S&W M&P9 & M&P9C
> **Walther PPQ
> *Kel-tec P11
> Sig Sauer: P229, *P224, M11A1*
> Springfield: *XDM 3.8 Compact* / XD Sub Compact
> 
> There's some offerings from Taurus as well, but I would not recommend them.
> 
> For the most part, I'd stick with the following manufactures.
> 
> Beretta
> Glock
> HK
> Sig Sauer
> Smith & Wesson
> Springfield Armory
> Walther


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!

I think I'm leaning more towards the sub-compact (correct me if I'm wrong), more for the 'concealability' factor of it all. A compact or full size would be nice if shtf but for a daily carry in my situation with dress cloths I think I'm leaning more sub-compact. Not pocket or mouse but from the ones you mentioned specifically like the; Beretta PX4 Subcompact, Glock 26 and Springfield XD Subcompact.

I was thinking about giving a IWB tuckable holster a go and seeing where it ends up, with a thought of trying the SmartCarry if things don't work out with that one.

....I'm also thinking about getting a "home defense" gun (Bumping up to a .45 or .40), and delegating the M&P to a range gun. 
Any quick suggestions to look at? (off topic i know, I appologize) but would getting something on a similar frame and/or same brand be helpful? Like: (for example) Carry the Glock 26 and get the 21? or Carry the XD Subcompact and home defense XDm 4.5?

Thanks


----------



## pic

VAMarine said:


> Pocket carry has it's place, while some use it as a primary means of carry I typically do not advocate it as such unless that is the ONLY option. As a back up, I think it's fine. Again, it's not really my cup of tea for various reasons but for many its preferred.
> 
> I'd rather see someone pocket carry than not carry at all :mrgreen:


I feel much more assured when I carry my sig1911 ,verses the pocket carry. like you said, they both have their places, .:smt023


----------



## pic

jbultman said:


> Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!
> 
> I think I'm leaning more towards the sub-compact (correct me if I'm wrong), more for the 'concealability' factor of it all. A compact or full size would be nice if shtf but for a daily carry in my situation with dress cloths I think I'm leaning more sub-compact. Not pocket or mouse but from the ones you mentioned specifically like the; Beretta PX4 Subcompact, Glock 26 and Springfield XD Subcompact.
> 
> I was thinking about giving a IWB tuckable holster a go and seeing where it ends up, with a thought of trying the SmartCarry if things don't work out with that one.
> 
> ....I'm also thinking about getting a "home defense" gun (Bumping up to a .45 or .40), and delegating the M&P to a range gun.
> Any quick suggestions to look at? (off topic i know, I appologize) but would getting something on a similar frame and/or same brand be helpful? Like: (for example) Carry the Glock 26 and get the 21? or Carry the XD Subcompact and home defense XDm 4.5?
> 
> Thanks


you will be able to conceal the sig just as well. 
with a sub compact you will not be as accurate. 
I own a subcompact px4, and they are kind of bulky.
you can get away with a more slim profile sig that will shoot much better then a sub compact..
sorry if this starting to sound a bit redundant,, I just had to pipe in. good luck


----------



## mikemc53

Just for informational purposes the SCCY also has a 10 round magazine.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!
> 
> I think I'm leaning more towards the sub-compact (correct me if I'm wrong), more for the 'concealability' factor of it all. A compact or full size would be nice if shtf but for a daily carry in my situation with dress cloths I think I'm leaning more sub-compact. Not pocket or mouse but from the ones you mentioned specifically like the; Beretta PX4 Subcompact, Glock 26 and Springfield XD Subcompact.
> 
> I was thinking about giving a IWB tuckable holster a go and seeing where it ends up, with a thought of trying the SmartCarry if things don't work out with that one.
> 
> ....I'm also thinking about getting a "home defense" gun (Bumping up to a .45 or .40), and delegating the M&P to a range gun.
> Any quick suggestions to look at? (off topic i know, I appologize) but would getting something on a similar frame and/or same brand be helpful? Like: (for example) Carry the Glock 26 and get the 21? or Carry the XD Subcompact and home defense XDm 4.5?
> 
> Thanks


And your quest continues... good for you.

*"I'm also thinking about getting a "home defense" gun (Bumping up to a .45 or .40), and delegating the M&P to a range gun."*
Why not let your M&P serve both purposes. It is accurate, reliable, enjoyable to shoot, has excellent handling and feel, and would make a fine HD gun. Unless your bent on getting a .40 or .45 for your home use, I'd give some serious consideration to staying with your M&P.

Which M&P do you own? I assume it's a 9mm, but what is its frame size and barrel length?


----------



## pic

There you go ,,M&P. your already proficient with it. External safety, bingo.
CASE CLOSED , good choice.
Gmorning SouthernBoy
Have a great day


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> There you go ,,M&P. your already proficient with it. External safety, bingo.
> CASE CLOSED , good choice.
> Gmorning SouthernBoy
> Have a great day


'Morning to you, friend. Did he get an M&P with the external safety? I get you're correct with this. I have three M&P's, none of which have the external safety or the magazine disconnect. All are great shooters. A 9mm, a .40S&W, and a .45ACP.


----------



## TheLAGuy

if you guys are going to get a m&P, i'd just get a beretta px4 storm. way better gun IMO.


----------



## jbultman

pic said:


> you will be able to conceal the sig just as well.
> with a sub compact you will not be as accurate.
> I own a subcompact px4, and they are kind of bulky.
> you can get away with a more slim profile sig that will shoot much better then a sub compact..
> sorry if this starting to sound a bit redundant,, I just had to pipe in. good luck


Yea from what I see the Px4 is a little bulky, what Sig are you referring to? The ones VAMarine suggested or Sig's in general? Comparability the Sigs are heavy though



SouthernBoy said:


> And your quest continues... good for you.
> 
> *"I'm also thinking about getting a "home defense" gun (Bumping up to a .45 or .40), and delegating the M&P to a range gun."*
> Why not let your M&P serve both purposes. It is accurate, reliable, enjoyable to shoot, has excellent handling and feel, and would make a fine HD gun. Unless your bent on getting a .40 or .45 for your home use, I'd give some serious consideration to staying with your M&P.
> 
> Which M&P do you own? I assume it's a 9mm, but what is its frame size and barrel length?


I have a full Size M&P 4.25" barrel with no external safety (Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm)

The reason for thinking about getting a .40 or .45 is, well ....... because, different caliber, Why not? 3 guns are better than 2 right?!


----------



## TheLAGuy

sometimes you just have to mandle it. act like you own it!


----------



## pic

jbultman said:


> Yea from what I see the Px4 is a little bulky, what Sig are you referring to? The ones VAMarine suggested or Sig's in general? Comparability the Sigs are heavy though
> 
> I have a full Size M&P 4.25" barrel with no external safety (Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm)
> 
> The reason for thinking about getting a .40 or .45 is, well ....... because, different caliber, Why not? 3 guns are better than 2 right?!


I thought the M&P had an external safety, my mistake .


----------



## VAMarine

TheLAGuy said:


> sometimes you just have to mandle it. act like you own it!


:smt075


----------



## Steve M1911A1

"Mandle"...sounds Yiddish, but I absolutely know that my father never used the word.
"Schmendrick"? Yes.***
"Schnorrer"? Yes.*‡*
"Momser"? Yes.*‹*
But "mandle"? Nope.

***"Hapless fool."
*‡*"Someone who wheedles."
*‹*"Bastard" (literally).


----------



## TheLAGuy

man handling it.. aka mandling it


----------



## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> "Mandle"...sounds Yiddish, but I absolutely know that my father never used the word.
> "Schmendrick"? Yes.***
> "Schnorrer"? Yes.*‡*
> "Momser"? Yes.*‹*
> But "mandle"? Nope.
> 
> ***"Hapless fool."
> *‡*"Someone who wheedles."
> *‹*"Bastard" (literally).


You left out " schmuck " which is very popular today,lol.
And the car salesmen had to give me his whole "spiel" before I could get away.


----------



## TheLAGuy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> "Mandle"...sounds Yiddish, but I absolutely know that my father never used the word.
> "Schmendrick"? Yes.***
> "Schnorrer"? Yes.*‡*
> "Momser"? Yes.*‹*
> But "mandle"? Nope.
> 
> ***"Hapless fool."
> *‡*"Someone who wheedles."
> *‹*"Bastard" (literally).


steve, question for you... why do you always disagree with everything I post?


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheLAGuy said:


> steve, question for you... why do you always disagree with everything I post?


Please see my PM.
This is not a subject for discussion here.


----------



## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Please see my PM.
> This is not a subject for discussion here.


HEY I BOUGHT A TICKET. :watching:


----------



## TheLAGuy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Please see my PM.
> This is not a subject for discussion here.


No PM. Was it sent?


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> I thought the M&P had an external safety, my mistake .


You can get them with external safeties if you want.


----------



## TheLAGuy

A lot of people on here shun upon external safeties. I'm a newbie to the rodeo but I kinda like the external safety option.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> I have a full Size M&P 4.25" barrel with no external safety (Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm)
> 
> The reason for thinking about getting a .40 or .45 is, well ....... because, different caliber, Why not? 3 guns are better than 2 right?!


My M&P 9mm Pro Series has the 4.25" barrel and it is great in that configuration. I understand your thinking because I also tend to think like that many times with firearms. Covering more bases is never a bad thing. My M&P 40 is also a 4.25" barrel and like its 9mm brother, is a real nice shooter.

Last month, I picked up a new gen4 Glock 22 (.40 of course) and though I have yet to shoot it, I love the new texture and the slightly shorter length of pull. It really fits my hands well.


----------



## TheLAGuy

SouthernBoy said:


> My M&P 9mm Pro Series has the 4.25" barrel and it is great in that configuration. I understand your thinking because I also tend to think like that many times with firearms. Covering more bases is never a bad thing. My M&P 40 is also a 4.25" barrel and like its 9mm brother, is a real nice shooter.
> 
> Last month, I picked up a new gen4 Glock 22 (.40 of course) and though I have yet to shoot it, I love the new texture and the slightly shorter length of pull. It really fits my hands well.


You've had it a month and haven't shot it yet? You need to get out there my friend.


----------



## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> You can get them with external safeties if you want.


Wow that 's a great option.
Depending on the gun's duty or personal preference .
I need to buy my wife a handgun, not sure which one exactly. Just wish the shelves at the gun shops had the inventory ,lol.
Thanks.


----------



## denner

denner said:


> Ditto to that concerning recoil: but the grip or magazine extension for training and converting back to the non grip extension for CCW would be a no go. Why you ask? The pistol you will be carrying should always be in the same exact configuration you train with. If you go with an extension always go with an extension, if you go with the shorter grip always go with the shorter grip. The pistol and it's configuration you will be carrying is the one you should always use and train with. Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, Oh., as mentioned above, will square you away.


Jbultman, to reconsider this post, or make myself a little more clear, once you become proficient with your pistol of choice you will probably be carrying it with a flush magazine, if subcompact. Once you become proficient shooting the pistol with the flush magazine, get proficient shooting the pistol with an extended magazine, if applicable, and you would be fine either way. Extended magazines do well as your backup magazine(s) if you wish.


----------



## jbultman

denner said:


> Jbultman, to reconsider this post, or make myself a little more clear, once you become proficient with your pistol of choice you will probably be carrying it with a flush magazine, if subcompact. Once you become proficient shooting the pistol with the flush magazine, get proficient shooting the pistol with an extended magazine, if applicable, and you would be fine either way. Extended magazines do well as your backup magazine(s) if you wish.


I see what your trying to say, it was nice to have a clarification, Though I am still stuck in the decision of what to purchase phase....


----------



## denner

jbultman said:


> I see what your trying to say, it was nice to have a clarification, Though I am still stuck in the decision of what to purchase phase....


Yes, I understand, with VA's list of pistol suggestions you can't go wrong. It will still come down to what feels best to you, what you shoot the best, feels most comfortable carrying, etc.... your first pick may or may not be your final pick for sure. You really need to try to shoot some on the list if at all possible, and likewise carry the pistol in your desired holster and set up, but that is much, much, easier said than done.


----------



## Cait43

Might want to look into the S&W M&P 9mm Shield
Gun Review: Smith & Wesson M&P9 Shield | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns


----------



## pic

If I were part of the approving school board, there would be physical characteristic requirements of the hand gun ,other then the required certification ,for the inexperienced, especially with children involved..
sorry, thread got so long ,it might have already been mentioned .
I work around people with with certifications all day long in the construction industry, still does not make them proficient. Nothing negative implied personally. That's just the way it is.
Some people are quick to learn, some never get it. Sometimes training with a stack of certificates is just not good enough. This is in General what I see everyday.
You can have a certification to rig,signal and hoist materials for a jobsite CRANE. The Crane operator will know if your qualified when he watches you signal ,or rig the material or unit to be hoisted. Your good to go, or back on that hand shovel,lol.:smt1099


----------



## SouthernBoy

TheLAGuy said:


> You've had it a month and haven't shot it yet? You need to get out there my friend.


Worse than that, I have purchased two new guns over past two months, installed two after market triggers in two AR's, and put different sights on one of my .22LR pistols and have not first any of them since doing all of this. The reason is due to something that happened to me on January 2nd.

I was in a PetsMart getting some cat food and as I bent over to my left to see something on a shelf, I felt something "catch" or pull in my lower back. It didn't go away. So I went to a specialist, had an MRI, and I have been diagnosed with LSS (Lumbar Spinal Stenosis). This is a compression of the spinal cord within my spinal column. Since then, I have had six separate series of shots and one MILD surgical procedure and nothing has worked. I go in next month for open back fusion surgery so please keep your fingers crossed for me if you will. This is why I have not been able to go to a range since January.


----------



## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> Wow that 's a great option.
> Depending on the gun's duty or personal preference .
> I need to buy my wife a handgun, not sure which one exactly. *Just wish the shelves at the gun shops had the inventory* ,lol.
> Thanks.


Ain't that the truth.


----------



## paratrooper

pic said:


> HEY I BOUGHT A TICKET. :watching:


Are season tickets available yet? :watching:


----------



## VAMarine

paratrooper said:


> Are season tickets available yet? :watching:


I wouldn't invest that much at this time.


----------



## TheLAGuy

LOL, you guys crack me up.


----------



## plp

double post


----------



## plp

First of all, thank you for making a choice to be a protector, not a victim. Nobody can argue that school children don't need to be protected from the evil that sometimes invades our world, again thanks for taking a realistic assessment of the situation and making an informed decision. 

The great thing about dealing with educators is, y'all do your homework. You have expressed in your posts a willingness to do this right, to be the best you can be and that begins, as others have stated, with training from good instructors. I would let them know up front you are a teacher, bet they will go out of their way to make sure you get the best instruction they can offer. 

I am not a huge fan of the M&P, but nothing against them, just have personal preferences that do it better for me than the M&P. While I agree with the wisdom more and bigger is better as far as caliber, there are situations when a multiple stage approach might serve you better. Who bats an eye about a teacher carrying an attache case or messenger bag? As a second stage defense situation, this opens up the choice of large frame handguns and multiple magazines. 

Concealed carry for your dress code requirements may present some problems. I don't know Ohio's political climate (and don't really want to go down that road) but I can see slight printing being escalated into brandishing by a hysterical anti-gunner, hope you don't have to deal with THOSE people but know they do exist in the education industry. 

I'd suggest looking into the dreaded and reviled mousegun realm as a first stage defensive weapon, simply because they are so much easier to conceal. Use it to fight your way to your briefcase and more firepower in a larger caliber IF you can't opt for the larger weapon immediately. I have pretty much the same approach for how I carry, difference being I am working my way back to a rifle in my vehicle. I carry a Smith and Wesson Bodyguard, and can carry it undetected in 4 different positions, preference being crossdraw at 2 O'clock. I can (and do) carry it a variety of ways, from round in battery and safety off (with the double action trigger as the only safety, similar to the Glock safety) to empty chamber and safety on. The majority of people here will espouse there is no reason in their world to carry one that way, in my world there are situations where I make that choice for the added safety factor. 

The important thing for you is, find what works best for you, be open minded about trying different options, and once you decide on it , practice, practice, practice. You are in a unique situation where you may be the LAST person anyone would expect to be armed, figure out how to use that to your advantage in a defensive situation. 

You are also in the unenviable situation of possibly being the last line of defense between a maniac and a room full of kids. Whatever else you decide about caliber, capacity, carry, etc., practice it to the point you can't get it wrong.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

plp said:


> ...[T]here are situations when a multiple stage approach might serve you better. Who bats an eye about a teacher carrying an attache case or messenger bag?...*[use a] mousegun...to fight your way to your briefcase and more firepower in a larger caliber*...


_*I'm pretty upset at this suggestion!*_
You're telling a teacher, in a classroom full of children, to leave a gun-loaded or not-in his occasionally-unattended briefcase!

Sorry: Dumb idea.
Think about it.

(If you want me to explain my disagreement, I'll be happy to.)


----------



## jbultman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> _*I'm pretty upset at this suggestion!*_
> You're telling a teacher, in a classroom full of children, to leave a gun-loaded or not-in his occasionally-unattended briefcase!
> 
> Sorry: Dumb idea.
> Think about it.
> 
> (If you want me to explain my disagreement, I'll be happy to.)


I agree completely, I am not going to put a loaded gun in my backpack and leave it in my room. That's an accident waiting to happen. That isn't even a viable option in my situation, I need to carry it with me, period.
Sorry to be so blunt


----------



## pic

Absolutely doesn't make sense as written! But the idea has merit. Deep detailed specifics ,managed by controls , central security room would be an advisement.
I agree whole heartedly with Steve M1911A1's initial assessment, "dumb idea" , there is to much space for error


----------



## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Foe me, it would depend on holster. If I had something that was properly molded for a specific firearm, I would be OK sans thumb safety, if I was using a Smart Carry or a holster shirt, belly band type deal, I would probably opt for the thumb safety.
> 
> As far as a list goes, this would be a good start. My preferences in bold.
> 
> Beretta: PX4 Compact & Subcompact, *92Compact*
> Bersa: Thunder 9 Pro, Pro9 Compact
> CZ: 2075 RAMI, P01, 75Compact
> *Glock: 19, 26
> *HK:* USP9C,* P2000, *P2000SK*, *P30 or P30S*. The P2000 and P30 are a little larger than the typical compact, just slightly larger than a Glock 19.
> Ruger SR9C
> *S&W M&P9 & M&P9C
> **Walther PPQ
> *Kel-tec P11
> Sig Sauer: P229, *P224, M11A1*
> Springfield: *XDM 3.8 Compact* / XD Sub Compact
> 
> There's some offerings from Taurus as well, but I would not recommend them.
> 
> For the most part, I'd stick with the following manufactures.
> 
> Beretta
> Glock
> HK
> Sig Sauer
> Smith & Wesson
> Springfield Armory
> Walther


I just stopped by a new shop that just opened by my house. Its run by police officers that are still working on the force. None-the-less the suggested the P238.

They made a couple points that make sense and would like your opinion;

Smaller = super easy to conceal/carry
Able to carry an extra magazine very very easily
Round and Capacity doesn't matter much because of the mind set of 'shooters' entering the building
No Double Stack, Go with Single Stack

I know we've talked about a double stack with 10+ rounds in 9mm. But I'm not sure some things they said tonight make complete sense and I would consider!!


----------



## denner

It makes sense for comfort because you are restricted by your dress code(i.e. deep concealment) and you'd be carrying the pistol everyday as part of your attire. Like a BUG of last resort for an LEO in which they probably have ample experience carrying everyday.

I'd suggest carrying an extra magazine in a single stack, but that just adds more to the mix. The premise here is; if you find the pistol too uncomfortable to carry everyday you'd probably leave it at home and any gun is better than no gun. To categorize the mindset of all shooters entering the building, I would basically agree that generally they are psychopath cowards seeking easy targets with least resistance, but that's a big what if.

I however agree and stand with VA"S assessment that I would not want to face a heavily armed adversary or multiple adversary's with a pocket anything. If I were going single stack, I'd look hard at Kahr's PM9, S&W Shield, XDS9, or Beretta's Nano.

I'd feel much more secure w/ a PX4 Subcompact, Glock 26, or any of the pistols mentioned in the subcompact list above. I own and carry the PX4 Subcompact and what people fail to mention is what people perceive as chunkiness 1.4 inches including the de-cocker(same width as the G-26 and XD sub) is the overall length of just 6.2 inches making it very comfortable when sitting and carrying concealed.

Unless you are a string bean, I find the pistol very comfortable for CCW. If you were in need, I promise you it would get someone's attention. I'm not pushing it, but I have owned and carried it for over 2 years, as such, I feel it's the only pistol on the list that I feel qualified to talk about other than the PX4 compact.


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## Steve M1911A1

If you can carry a pistol IWB, then you can also carry _two_ reload magazines IWB.

If you're going to carry a small pistol, put in a whole lot of practice time.
Learn to hit the head or, better, the base of the neck with every shot, from bad-breath distances out to 10 yards.
Assume that every adversary is wearing body armor, even though they probably won't be, and shoot accordingly.

Don't forget to practice quick, sure reloading until you can do it without looking.
Bring the pistol up to eye level and "look the reload in," but keep your eyes focussed on the target (not the reload) while you're doing it.


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## VAMarine

Pretty much EVERYTHING will be harder with a pocket gun with the exception of concealment.

I've had a 238 and a host if its Colt predecessors and it would not be my first choice. For a single stack I would opt for the aforementioned Shield or the Sig 938 which is the 9mm big brother of the 238, preference being for the Shield.

Regarding smaller guns, particularly pocket guns:
The mags are smaller, the grip is smaller, the barrel and sight radius are smaller.

This all makes for a gun that is easy to deep conceal, but harder to get a hold of, harder to shoot well, and harder to reload.

Yes, carry extra mag etc, but extra ammo on person will never be better than having more rounds in the gun. The best time to take on a school shooter is when reloading, the same applies toward you. Every second spent reloading is more time that you are not shooting, moving, or communicating.

6 or 7 rounds of .380 in the 238 depending on magazine type...not a warm and fuzzy for me given the nature of why you want to carry. 

The 238 is also a "cocked and locked" firearm, I have concerns with this type of gun in pocket carry or otherwise deep concealment roles as lint build up may obstruct the hammer from hitting the firing pin. It's a long shot, but so is the idea of you needing to carry in the first place. Method of carry may negate that concern and I've never heard of it happening but that doesn't mean it can't.

I've had lots of lint/fuzzy build up in other cocked and locked style firearms (including the 238) but have never tested how much it would take to obstruct the firing sequence...


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## Steve M1911A1

VAMarine said:


> ...I have concerns...as lint build up may obstruct the hammer from hitting the firing pin...I've had lots of lint/fuzzy build up in other cocked and locked style firearms (including the 238) but have never tested how much it would take to obstruct the firing sequence...


I've pocket carried for years, until very recently.
All I've ever had to do was blow the small amount of accumulated lint out from the pistol's hammer area, every night just before I went to bed.
Then, about once a week, I emptied the pistol and checked the barrel and "works" for lint. I've never found lint in the barrel, but I did occasionally have to use a Q-Tip on the accessible inside parts and crevices.
Two things helped: I kept the pistol pretty dry, and my pocket holster has a closed muzzle-end.


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## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> Pretty much EVERYTHING will be harder with a pocket gun with the exception of concealment.
> 
> I've had a 238 and a host if its Colt predecessors and it would not be my first choice. For a single stack I would opt for the aforementioned Shield or the Sig 938 which is the 9mm big brother of the 238, preference being for the Shield.
> 
> Regarding smaller guns, particularly pocket guns:
> The mags are smaller, the grip is smaller, the barrel and sight radius are smaller.
> 
> This all makes for a gun that is easy to deep conceal, but harder to get a hold of, harder to shoot well, and harder to reload.
> 
> Yes, carry extra mag etc, but extra ammo on person will never be better than having more rounds in the gun. The best time to take on a school shooter is when reloading, the same applies toward you. Every second spent reloading is more time that you are not shooting, moving, or communicating.
> 
> 6 or 7 rounds of .380 in the 238 depending on magazine type...not a warm and fuzzy for me given the nature of why you want to carry.
> 
> The 238 is also a "cocked and locked" firearm, I have concerns with this type of gun in pocket carry or otherwise deep concealment roles as lint build up may obstruct the hammer from hitting the firing pin. It's a long shot, but so is the idea of you needing to carry in the first place. Method of carry may negate that concern and I've never heard of it happening but that doesn't mean it can't.
> 
> I've had lots of lint/fuzzy build up in other cocked and locked style firearms (including the 238) but have never tested how much it would take to obstruct the firing sequence...


After considering my options what y'all are saying and what they said at the shop lat night;
I am considering one of 2 options

1. Single Stack w/ extra magazine (9, .40 or .45) -- example; Shield, P938 or XDs
2. Double Stack w/ or w/o extra magazine (9, .40 or .45) -- example; Px4 storm Sub-compact, Glock Sub-compact or XD Sub-compact

Ideas?

I'm thinking about taking a CCW course by my house and they have multiple CCW options for me to shoot before/ during or after the test so I truly decide before buying. Opinions?


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## Steve M1911A1

Take the CCW course, and try every gun they've got.

Choose for comfort in your hand, and concealability.
Don't worry about accuracy—they'll all be more accurate than you are.


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## denner

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Take the CCW course, and try every gun they've got.
> 
> Choose for comfort in your hand, and concealability.
> Don't worry about accuracy-they'll all be more accurate than you are.


:smt083


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## VAMarine

jbultman said:


> After considering my options what y'all are saying and what they said at the shop lat night;
> I am considering one of 2 options
> 
> 1. Single Stack w/ extra magazine (9, .40 or .45) -- example; Shield, P938 or XDs
> 2. Double Stack w/ or w/o extra magazine (9, .40 or .45) -- example; Px4 storm Sub-compact, Glock Sub-compact or XD Sub-compact
> 
> Ideas?
> 
> I'm thinking about taking a CCW course by my house and they have multiple CCW options for me to shoot before/ during or after the test so I truly decide before buying. Opinions?


You all ready know which direction I lean.

Take the course, check out some guns. Go from there. On top of "feel" of a gun, look at the controls of the gun, can you reach them easily?


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## jbultman

VAMarine said:


> You all ready know which direction I lean.
> 
> Take the course, check out some guns. Go from there. On top of "feel" of a gun, look at the controls of the gun, can you reach them easily?


Yea I do,

Thanks you guys are a great help!!
I'm planning on taking the course June 15 or July 13 depends on vacation plans with the family

I really liked the feel of the Sig P238 last night, it felt like a quality well built gun able to withstand anything I can ponder up. I felt like it was even better (at least my opinion) than the shield. All Sig's that I have held have been that way, well minus the polymer/ modular ones (because I have yet to hold those). My question is; Is there a Sig (or equivalent; maybe HK) built with the quality, feel and all around 'put-togetherness' of the P238 but double stack with 10+ rounds in 9mm, .40 or .45 and size-wise equal to PX4 storm Sub-compact, Glock Sub-compact or XD Sub-compact?

I know this is a tall order but I think that is going to be my best bet!!


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## denner

Quality, put togetherness? All the pistols VA mentioned are quality and put togetherness. Frankly, the Shield, or Nano would stand up 10 fold against a P238 if you ran them hard. You will not get the same feel w/ a single stack pocket pistol as compared to any double stack pistol. There's the Sig 938, but then again a single stack cocked and locked single action pistol. You may perceive those two to be well built and put togetherness, but in my opinion neither are built to be run hard or for high round counts(not that you would need to run them hard). If Sig's are feeling good to you try the Sig P224, basically a chopped down P226, a pistol with a bloodline of battle service, or the single stack P290. Take your ccw course, and shoot as many pistols as you can before you decide. Did you see the P238 or P938 on VA's list?


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## jbultman

denner said:


> Quality, put togetherness? All the pistols VA mentioned are quality and put togetherness. Frankly, the Shield, or Nano would stand up 10 fold against a P238 if you ran them hard. You will not get the same feel w/ a single stack pocket pistol as compared to any double stack pistol. There's the Sig 938, but then again a single stack cocked and locked single action pistol. You may perceive those two to be well built and put togetherness, but in my opinion neither are built to be run hard or for high round counts(not that you would need to run them hard). If Sig's are feeling good to you try the Sig P224, basically a chopped down P226, a pistol with a bloodline of battle service, or the single stack P290. Take your ccw course, and shoot as many pistols as you can before you decide. Did you see the P238 or P938 on VA's list?


Ha I see what your saying, but to me the 238 felt solid, to say the least. I partially believe that its from the amount of metal in it. I didn't hold the shield for too long though. I'll take a look at the p224, p290, and in general VA's list again


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## TAPnRACK

My P238 is solid... over 1,000 rds and counting. It's built to take abuse, and abuse it I do as it is my EDC for off duty. I trust my life & the lives of my family with it. 

While not a good choice for home defense... it is the best pocket pistol I've carried or shot, and extremely easy to conceal with any attire... and I carry OWB in a pancake holster w/extended mag.

When making your choice, are you planning on defending your class of students or actually engaging armed threats wherever they may be within the school?


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## denner

I guess the point I'm trying to make is just because a pistol feels solid doesn't necessarily make it the most durable, comfortable, accurate, easiest to shoot and reload under stress, or the best option for deep concealment. Now if you told me I've trained with it and have put 1000 rounds down range that's a much different story. I believe if you did that in comparison with the Shield, P290, Nano vs. the P238 I'd think you'd know what I mean, but to be fair after reading the report from TapnRack they all have their niche. A pocket pistol has it's place, but defending students or engaging armed threats within a school, not the best option.


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## SouthernBoy

Now this is a personal opinion and I feel that must be stated up front before I continue with this post.

From what I understand, the Sig Sauer P238 is a single action pistol. For the purposes to which you have described this gun is to be put, I would not recommend a single action pistol. I would go with preferably a DAO or perhaps a DA rather than a SA pistol. And for your specific requirements you have outlined, I would want an external safety on the gun. This will narrow your candidate selection quite a bit. However, if you are set on the Sig product line, I'm sure they have something like I have mentioned here.

Once again, this is entirely a personal opinion and nothing more.


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## jbultman

TAPnRACK said:


> When making your choice, are you planning on defending your class of students or actually engaging armed threats wherever they may be within the school?


Actually our school let out today and next week there will be a meeting with the staff, administrators, superintendent, school board and sheriff. We will not only discuss what you mentioned but also some other things that we mentioned in this thread, and more. So we'll find out what the school's planning. If it were up to me, i'm not sure, I guess It would depend on the situation.



denner said:


> I guess the point I'm trying to make is just because a pistol feels solid doesn't necessarily make it the most durable, comfortable, accurate, easiest to shoot and reload under stress, or the best option for deep concealment. Now if you told me I've trained with it and have put 1000 rounds down range that's a much different story. I believe if you did that in comparison with the Shield, P290, Nano vs. the P238 I'd think you'd know what I mean, but to be fair after reading the report from TapnRack they all have their niche. A pocket pistol has it's place, but defending students or engaging armed threats within a school, not the best option.


I understand what you are saying 'just because a pistol feels solid doesn't necessarily make it the most durable, comfortable, accurate, easiest to shoot and reload under stress, or the best option for deep concealment.' I am stating to agree with ya'll that the P238 or 938 isn't the best bet (sorry VA and Steve for second guessing you guys).

I'm going to take a look at VA's list again, do you guys any guns (if anything) a bit smaller but not pocket size?

I'm going to go to the class and hopefully then...decide 100%. I HATE HOW I"M INDECISIVE!



SouthernBoy said:


> From what I understand, the Sig Sauer P238 is a single action pistol. For the purposes to which you have described this gun is to be put, I would not recommend a single action pistol. I would go with preferably a DAO or perhaps a DA rather than a SA pistol. And for your specific requirements you have outlined, I would want an external safety on the gun. This will narrow your candidate selection quite a bit. However, if you are set on the Sig product line, I'm sure they have something like I have mentioned here.


I agree to some extent, I think I would much prefer a hammer fired DA/SA or DA or striker fired (not SAO hammer fired) and definitely an external safety, IMO.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> I agree to some extent, I think I would much prefer a hammer fired DA/SA or DA or striker fired (not SAO hammer fired) and definitely an external safety, IMO.


*"I think I would much prefer a hammer fired DA/SA or DA"*
These are one and the same. There is no difference between these terms and they are redundant. I refuse to use the term "DA/SA" simply because it is a relatively new term and if a gun is a DA, it is automatically a SA as well... hence double action.

*"(not SAO hammer fired)"*
The Sig Sauer P238 is a SAO hammer fired pistol. There is nothing wrong with this. I just didnt' think it tended to fit some of the criteria and requirements you have spoken of in this discourse.

From what I have read in your posts, one of the primary pistols that would seem to fit your bill would be the Smith and Wesson M&P Shield. A small, light weight striker fired pistol with an externally settable safety and a DAO to boot. DAO (Double Action Only) pistols make very good defensive arms because you get the same trigger feel and action from the first shot to the last. This helps with training and use. If you are willing to drop the externally settable safety requirement, the Kahr K9 would be an excellent choice as well. A little heavier since it is all steel, but it has a beautiful trigger and what many feel is a better DAO design. The trigger action is very much like a fine DA revolver in feel. But for what you have indicated, the M&P Shield may be the best of the lot.

The only real downside to these compact pistols is round count. But there is one thing in your favor even with this fact. Should the time come when you ever have to call upon that pistol to help you and your students out, the active shooter will most likely crap his pants as he is not likely to consider the fact that you will be in that school, armed and ready to use your firearm. His expectations would be a gun free zone so running into someone who is perfectly willing and able to take him out is going to disrupt his plans and more than likely cause him to rethink his agenda.

I know this has been a harrowing decision for you but hang in there... you'll get there. It's much better that you do your homework up front then to take the wrong decision and go with something that does not fit your needs.


----------



## jbultman

SouthernBoy said:


> *"I think I would much prefer a hammer fired DA/SA or DA"*
> These are one and the same. There is no difference between these terms and they are redundant. I refuse to use the term "DA/SA" simply because it is a relatively new term and if a gun is a DA, it is automatically a SA as well... hence double action.
> 
> *"(not SAO hammer fired)"*
> The Sig Sauer P238 is a SAO hammer fired pistol. There is nothing wrong with this. I just didnt' think it tended to fit some of the criteria and requirements you have spoken of in this discourse.
> 
> From what I have read in your posts, one of the primary pistols that would seem to fit your bill would be the Smith and Wesson M&P Shield. A small, light weight striker fired pistol with an externally settable safety and a DAO to boot. DAO (Double Action Only) pistols make very good defensive arms because you get the same trigger feel and action from the first shot to the last. This helps with training and use. If you are willing to drop the externally settable safety requirement, the Kahr K9 would be an excellent choice as well. A little heavier since it is all steel, but it has a beautiful trigger and what many feel is a better DAO design. The trigger action is very much like a fine DA revolver in feel. But for what you have indicated, the M&P Shield may be the best of the lot.
> 
> The only real downside to these compact pistols is round count. But there is one thing in your favor even with this fact. Should the time come when you ever have to call upon that pistol to help you and your students out, the active shooter will most likely crap his pants as he is not likely to consider the fact that you will be in that school, armed and ready to use your firearm. His expectations would be a gun free zone so running into someone who is perfectly willing and able to take him out is going to disrupt his plans and more than likely cause him to rethink his agenda.
> 
> I know this has been a harrowing decision for you but hang in there... you'll get there. It's much better that you do your homework up front then to take the wrong decision and go with something that does not fit your needs.


I'm sorry I ment DAO not DA.To restate it properly... '"I think I would much prefer a hammer fired DA/SA or DAO." I
apologize.

* 'But for what you have indicated, the M&P Shield may be the best of the lot.'*
I like the feel of the shield, however I have yet to shoot it and not to mention none of the shops around here have the 9mm. Only one shop has the .40 and only 2 more. Opinions on jumping up to the Shield .40? and 'pulling the trigger'-- Pun intended!

*'Should the time come when you ever have to call upon that pistol to help you and your students out, the active shooter will most likely crap his pants as he is not likely to consider the fact that you will be in that school, armed and ready to use your firearm. His expectations would be a gun free zone so running into someone who is perfectly willing and able to take him out is going to disrupt his plans and more than likely cause him to rethink his agenda.'*

Very very well stated. I agree 100%!! _enough said_


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## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I've pocket carried for years, until very recently.
> All I've ever had to do was blow the small amount of accumulated lint out from the pistol's hammer area, every night just before I went to bed.
> Then, about once a week, I emptied the pistol and checked the barrel and "works" for lint. I've never found lint in the barrel, but I did occasionally have to use a Q-Tip on the accessible inside parts and crevices.
> Two things helped: I kept the pistol pretty dry, and my pocket holster has a closed muzzle-end.


What I like to recommend to people who carry is to use a quality dry lube like Hornady's One Shot or a good silicone spray such as made by CRC. This really helps to keep the gun from attracting lint, dirty, and other debris the gun will be exposed to when carried. For pocket carry, which I also do from time to time, I prefer CRC Heavy Duty silicon spray.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> * 'But for what you have indicated, the M&P Shield may be the best of the lot.'*
> I like the feel of the shield, however I have yet to shoot it and not to mention none of the shops around here have the 9mm. Only one shop has the .40 and only 2 more. Opinions on jumping up to the Shield .40? and 'pulling the trigger'-- Pun intended!


While I tend to prefer the .40S&W over the 9mm and carry one every day in the form of a gen3 Glock 23, in your situation, I would go with the 9mm. However, I _would _give very serious consideration to the .40 in this gun and would have no problem getting one in that caliber. The fact that you can get your hands on one and that ammunition is more available in .40 than 9mm at this time could be a deciding factor. Yes, there will be a little more recoil but that shouldn't be a cause for concern. You do lose one round with the .40 when compared to the 9mm.

As for 9mm, I can well imagine finding one is hard since that caliber and the Shield are in high demand at present time Do you have any local gun shops that are willing to order one for you? Buds Guns is showing the Shield at $388 for the last price they had (they are currently out of stock). They may be willing to put you on a back order list.

Check around on the web to see if anyone has one. Of course, the first thing you should do is shoot one at a range by either renting one or having a friend who has one go with you (that could be hard). I have bought guns in the past before I shot them and just went with how they felt in my hand. Only twice was I fooled by how they felt when fired compared to how they felt in my hand.

Now you have the summer on your side to try to come up with an appropriate gun for your needs and requirements. You've received a lot of good information on this thread so hopefully that helps a great deal. The ball is in your court now so good luck.


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## jbultman

SouthernBoy said:


> While I tend to prefer the .40S&W over the 9mm and carry one every day in the form of a gen3 Glock 23, in your situation, I would go with the 9mm. However, I _would _give very serious consideration to the .40 in this gun and would have no problem getting one in that caliber. The fact that you can get your hands on one and that ammunition is more available in .40 than 9mm at this time could be a deciding factor. Yes, there will be a little more recoil but that shouldn't be a cause for concern. You do lose one round with the .40 when compared to the 9mm.
> 
> As for 9mm, I can well imagine finding one is hard since that caliber and the Shield are in high demand at present time Do you have any local gun shops that are willing to order one for you? Buds Guns is showing the Shield at $388 for the last price they had (they are currently out of stock). They may be willing to put you on a back order list.
> 
> Check around on the web to see if anyone has one. Of course, the first thing you should do is shoot one at a range by either renting one or having a friend who has one go with you (that could be hard). I have bought guns in the past before I shot them and just went with how they felt in my hand. Only twice was I fooled by how they felt when fired compared to how they felt in my hand.
> 
> Now you have the summer on your side to try to come up with an appropriate gun for your needs and requirements. You've received a lot of good information on this thread so hopefully that helps a great deal. The ball is in your court now so good luck.


And for that reason I am leaning towards going with a .40.

Actually at another range they have a Shield .40 that they rent and I would be able to shoot it. However they are unable to get any, they have placed orders for them however with each shipments arrival they have still yet to come in.

*Now you have the summer on your side to try to come up with an appropriate gun for your needs and requirements. You've received a lot of good information on this thread so hopefully that helps a great deal. The ball is in your court now so good luck.*

Agreed I'm going to hopefully finish my homework up here soon, and get what I want so I can be ready when the decision is made to carry or not to carry.


----------



## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> And for that reason I am leaning towards going with a .40.
> 
> Actually at another range they have a Shield .40 that they rent and I would be able to shoot it. However they are unable to get any, they have placed orders for them however with each shipments arrival they have still yet to come in.
> 
> *Now you have the summer on your side to try to come up with an appropriate gun for your needs and requirements. You've received a lot of good information on this thread so hopefully that helps a great deal. The ball is in your court now so good luck.*
> 
> Agreed I'm going to hopefully finish my homework up here soon, and get what I want so I can be ready when the decision is made to carry or not to carry.


An M&P Shield in .40S&W would be a formidable subcompact sidearm and should serve you well. I seriously doubt you would have any problems shooting this gun. I have had three subcompacts in this caliber and none of them gave me cause for concern (Kahr PM40 and MK40 Elite, and a Firestar 40). The PM40 is over three ounces lighter and the grip is 1/2" shorter than the M&P Shield in 40 and I shot that little gun quite well. Surprisingly, the recoil was not a problem with the PM40. I would bet that the M&P 40 is even better in that regard.

Do a search for "M&P 40 for sale" and you'll turn up some sites that are showing this gun as available.


----------



## Smitty79

Lots of them on Gunbroker. Can be had for under $450.


----------



## jbultman

SouthernBoy said:


> An M&P Shield in .40S&W would be a formidable subcompact sidearm and should serve you well. I seriously doubt you would have any problems shooting this gun. I have had three subcompacts in this caliber and none of them gave me cause for concern (Kahr PM40 and MK40 Elite, and a Firestar 40). The PM40 is over three ounces lighter and the grip is 1/2" shorter than the M&P Shield in 40 and I shot that little gun quite well. Surprisingly, the recoil was not a problem with the PM40. I would bet that the M&P 40 is even better in that regard.
> 
> Do a search for "M&P 40 for sale" and you'll turn up some sites that are showing this gun as available.


I like the idea of getting the shield .40 minus the 6 round magazines


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## SouthernBoy

jbultman said:


> I like the idea of getting the shield .40 minus the 6 round magazines


Incidentally, I noticed I mentioned in my last post the M&P 40 when of course, I meant to write M&P Shield in 40. At present, I have six pistols in the .40S&W cartridge. Two gen3 Glock 23's (one of which is my primary carry gun), a gen3 Glock 27, a gen4 Glock 22, an M&P 40 w/4.25" barrel, and a Kahr K40 Elite '98. All are superb in their own right and are going to remain in my collection. I have yet to fire my new gen4 G22 because I have LSS (Lumbar Spinal Stenosis) and am going in for open back surgery in 16 days. But in July, you can bet that gun will get rung out. The K40 Elite '98 is one sweet gun. It's all stainless steel and I replaced the standard grips with smooth walnut grips so it wouldn't snag on jackets with felt linings. Feels great in the hand.

The .40S&W is a great cartridge and in the better SD loadings, it has a proven record on the street. I prefer the Gold Dot 165 grain JHP "hot" load (#53970) or the Federal 165 grain HST. Of course you'll never know what works best until the time comes that you have to use your gun. And even then, you're only going to know how well it worked, or didn't work, for that specific incident.


----------



## pic

I think we need to realize that the reason for an armed teacher or teachers main objective is to stop or slow down an intruder. The bad guy and good guy might need to take cover, Until the professionals arrive. Chances are the bg Will not know what he us up against as far as armaments are concerned .He will be in most cases better armed. 
I think we are looking for a safe gun that will go bang and stop the school intruder until help arrives .


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> I think we need to realize that the reason for an armed teacher or teachers main objective is to stop or slow down an intruder. The bad guy and good guy might need to take cover, Until the professionals arrive. Chances are the bg Will not know what he us up against as far as armaments are concerned .He will be in most cases better armed.
> I think we are looking for a safe gun that will go bang and stop the school intruder until help arrives .


True. But I would bet that if a shooter came into a school, the last thing he is going to be thinking is running into an armed teacher or employee of some kind. These people are basically cowards and someone who can and will shoot them is definitely not in their plan.

As for, "a safe gun that will go bang and stop the school intruder until help arrives", the first part applies to any firearm carried for self defense. The first rule of a defensive arm is reliability. It must go bang every time... as much or close to this as is humanly possible. The loudest sound in the world in an extreme encounter is CLICK.


----------



## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> True. But I would bet that if a shooter came into a school, the last thing he is going to be thinking is running into an armed teacher or employee of some kind. These people are basically cowards and someone who can and will shoot them is definitely not in their plan.
> 
> As for, "a safe gun that will go bang and stop the school intruder until help arrives", the first part applies to any firearm carried for self defense. The first rule of a defensive arm is reliability. It must go bang every time... as much or close to this as is humanly possible. The loudest sound in the world in an extreme encounter is CLICK.


True about the cowards.
Schools are going to look at their liability interests in every situation. Was the armed person/ teacher overly aggressive in a situation. Opens a whole new can of worms


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> True about the cowards.
> Schools are going to look at their liability interests in every situation. Was the armed person/ teacher overly aggressive in a situation. Opens a whole new can of worms


Yep it does. But frankly, if I had young children in school and an active shooter entered to do his dirty work, I'd much rather have a few armed employees try to take him out than to have what happened at Sandy Hook. Dying like trapped ducks in a shooting gallery doesn't set well with me. And that's exactly what the idiots in charge have turned schools into in their quest to make them safe. You really have to wonder about the cranial ability of anyone who believes that putting gun buster signs up with gun free zone signs is going to turn people with evil intent away.


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## pic

I absolutely agree with having armed personnel on school grounds.
If Cuomo wanted to be the true hero to a sad situation ,he should have truly taken a positive action position that would have had an immediate impact . The legislation he enacted did nothing but politicize the incident. He said time was of the essence, I agree time was of the essence which would have justified Putting armed personnel in schools. 
School cameras in conjunction with a manned security control room should become a part of every school.


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## schyfy

not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, I got to this forum a little late and Im not going to read 7 pages worth. But have you considered a Glock 26 in an ankle holster? Its standard 10 rd magazine is not bad to start and you can also throw in a 17rd mag as a back up. Or even better. The 33 rd mag. Great option IMO. Has no safety like you wanted but still a great gun.


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## Steve M1911A1

schyfy said:


> not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, I got to this forum a little late and Im not going to read 7 pages worth. But have you considered a Glock 26 in an ankle holster? Its standard 10 rd magazine is not bad to start and you can also throw in a 17rd mag as a back up. Or even better. The 33 rd mag. Great option IMO. Has no safety like you wanted but still a great gun.


Have you ever worn a Glock anything in an ankle holster, all day long?

I think that this style of carry would be particularly unwieldy when you're riding herd on a classroom full of kids-especially of they're 'teenagers.

...And where would you suggest hiding that 33-round reload magazine?
Have you ever used one?
And, if you have, have you ever tried to use it while kneeling among tables and desks?


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## jbultman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I think that this style of carry would be particularly unwieldy when you're riding herd on a classroom full of kids-especially of they're 'teenagers


Nice job description, I might have to use that!!


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## Steve M1911A1

Been there, done that.
Until recently, I was a "volunteer art docent," bringing instruction in art technique to Fourth and Fifth Graders.
(I firmly believe that a little bit of classroom chaos helps kids to freely exchange ideas. The difficulty comes in keeping the chaos down to "a little bit.")

And, as far as I am concerned, "concealed is concealed."


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## Jammersix

Take a class.


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## schyfy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Have you ever worn a Glock anything in an ankle holster, all day long?
> 
> I think that this style of carry would be particularly unwieldy when you're riding herd on a classroom full of kids-especially of they're 'teenagers.
> 
> ...And where would you suggest hiding that 33-round reload magazine?
> Have you ever used one?
> And, if you have, have you ever tried to use it while kneeling among tables and desks?


33 rd mag in a briefcase of some sort. I was just throwing out ideas..


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## Steve M1911A1

schyfy said:


> 33 rd mag in a briefcase of some sort. I was just throwing out ideas..


All ideas-even not-so-good ones-add to the conversation, and may spark better ideas.

It was not my intent to stifle you, or to curb your creativity.
I hope that you understand that.


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## Jammersix

When you get to something called "Skeeter & Booger's Excellent Holster and iPhone Case", or something that's packaged in ziplock bags, that's a clue.

Carrying weapons isn't new. A lot of the problems have been worked out.

A class can, at least, show you what you don't know.

The good thing about the internet is that anyone can answer your question. The bad thing about it is that anyone can answer your question.


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## Steve M1911A1

Jammersix said:


> When you get to something called "Skeeter & Booger's Excellent Holster and iPhone Case"...


...Or something called the "FlashBang"...



Jammersix said:


> ...that's a clue...


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## jbultman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Been there, done that.
> Until recently, I was a "volunteer art docent," bringing instruction in art technique to Fourth and Fifth Graders.
> (I firmly believe that a little bit of classroom chaos helps kids to freely exchange ideas. The difficulty comes in keeping the chaos down to "a little bit.")
> 
> And, as far as I am concerned, "concealed is concealed."


Oh, well you have the experience then and you know what I deal with everyday!! It is a blast 99.9% of the time. And yes I agree that * 'a little bit of classroom chaos helps kids to freely exchange ideas. The difficulty comes in keeping the chaos down to a little bit.* that's prefect.

So considering your experience.... would you agree with what VA said; Regarding the caliber, size, holsters and suggestions? (Double stack 9mm, compact/sub-compact in a quality tuckable holster (Galco or Crossbreed) or Supertuck with the best gun that I can fit, feels the best and hope I have the opportunity to shoot them (from the list VA suggested))



Jammersix said:


> The good thing about the internet is that anyone can answer your question. The bad thing about it is that anyone can answer your question.


Touche


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## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ...[C]onsidering your experience.... would you agree with what VA said; Regarding the caliber, size, holsters and suggestions? (Double stack 9mm, compact/sub-compact in a quality tuckable holster (Galco or Crossbreed) or Supertuck with the best gun that I can fit, feels the best and hope I have the opportunity to shoot them (from the list VA suggested)...


In some ways, I'm the wrong person to ask.
I am a very experienced pistol user and, as I proved today, still a pretty good shot.***
But you are a novice, and that which suits me and my abilities would very likely be quite difficult for you to master. Further, *VAMarine* is more conversant with pistols more modern than those I use, so his recommendations would have less of an antique-store quality about them.

Until very recently, my everyday-carry gun has been an extremely small .45 ACP semi-auto with a fairly stiff DAO trigger action, which I carried in a holster in my pants pocket. But this is not a beginner's gun; it is an expert's tool. The upside is that it was, in practical terms, invisible.
(Jean has also become a pretty good pistol user-proven yet again today-and her preferred pistol is a tiny Kel-Tec P3AT, another "expert's tool," which she carries in a Smartcarry just inside her loose-waistband, soft and fuzzy, Polartec pants.)

I still suggest a DAO pistol to you, but you should choose one that has a fairly light trigger action-perhaps five to nine pounds. A double-action-only pistol presents you with the very same trigger action for each and every shot, which is the best system for a beginner. Further, most DAOs do not complicate your life with a safety lever to remember to press upon.
In a classroom, if hidden properly, a DAO pistol, even one without a safety lever, will be entirely safe. I believe that a high-quality tuckable holster would be your best choice, probably worn at "4:00" (behind the strong-side hip, somewhat). Your reloads would be carried, also tucked, at about "8:00." You will very carefully have to keep your students from ever touching or hugging you-which I would have found to be a difficulty, had I not been pocket-carrying.

Carrying in a "tuckable" holster will require extra practice, in order to make effective and reasonably quick presentations. I suggest the help of a professional trainer, to accomplish this, since writing can't replace demonstrations.
The main issue in practice, both dry- and live-fire, is to practice being _smooth_. It is counter-productive to attempt to practice being quick. If you work hard at being both smooth and physically efficient, with no wasted motion, you will very soon become quick "automatically" as your skill develops. However, if you try to practice being quick, you will waste motion, move inefficiently, and make serious tactical errors-which you will only perpetuate as you try to move even more quickly.

Those are my basic suggestions. More answers will be forthcoming upon request.

***Jean and I travelled to the mainland today, and found a disused quarry on Forest Service land. It has a level floor and maybe as much as 500 yards of free space in front of its cliff face (on a weekday, when nobody else was there). Even including the two hours spent on the ferry, and the four hours of 'round-trip driving time, it is the perfect place for us to shoot. There seems to be a high-quality B&B within 20 miles, so next time we'll go for an entire two-day shooting orgy. I will finally be able to sight-in my rebuilt "semi-scout" rifle!


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## Gunners_Mate

^^ Great post Steve, and I may have to find out where this nifty little shooting spot is one day, if I ever find my way back home. 

What is this about a "semi-scout" rifle? do you have a thread about it? I'm very interested in what it is you've come up with, I've been in the market for a scout, or something similar to, rifle for a while now, and I don't want to hijack this thread, I'm off topic as it is!


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## SouthernBoy

*"A double-action-only pistol presents you with the very same trigger action for each and every shot, which is the best system for a beginner."*

I would advance the proposition that a DAO pistol is an excellent EDC (Every Day Carry [gun]) for the reasons Steve offered and the level of one's experience is not any issue with this. What is an issue is what works best for the individual. I have been in the gun culture for over 45 years now and have experimented with SA revolvers, DAA revolvers, SA pistols, DA pistols, and DAO pistols and it is my opinion that the DAO pistol design meets all of my wants, needs, and requirements in a carry gun. I have a lot of experience in this area and have tried numerous guns in the action and type categories I just mentioned and it is the DAO pistol I prefer over any other design. Once again, this is my opinion and my preference only.

Steve just gave some excellent advice to our OP, as have most of the responding posters, and particularly about draw and fire practice (dry fire, of course). Starting with speed in mind is NOT the way to begin this process as it can and will implant bad technique. Start slowly and concentrate on proper draw and presentation. Speed will naturally follow. How often to practice? As often as one can muster the time and space (not good to have others around when doing this in the quiet of your home).


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## Steve M1911A1

Gunners_Mate said:


> ...What is this about a "semi-scout" rifle? do you have a thread about it?...


*G.M.*;
I started a thread about it.
Click on: http://www.handgunforum.net/long-gun-photo-gallery/24948-semi-scout-rifle.html


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## pic

Back to the main topic of this thread, I personally am very uncomfortable with an inexperienced teacher learning how to properly conceal a handgun in a classroom environment . Professional or experienced would be a mandatory requirement.
Most likely that muzzle will be pointing at the children throughout the day , even though it might/ should be properly holstered. 
Only experts need apply, I'm sorry.
I will not allow my ten year old child with an inexperienced teacher packing a gun


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## jbultman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> In some ways, I'm the wrong person to ask.
> I am a very experienced pistol user and, as I proved today, still a pretty good shot.***
> But you are a novice, and that which suits me and my abilities would very likely be quite difficult for you to master. Further, *VAMarine* is more conversant with pistols more modern than those I use, so his recommendations would have less of an antique-store quality about them.
> 
> Until very recently, my everyday-carry gun has been an extremely small .45 ACP semi-auto with a fairly stiff DAO trigger action, which I carried in a holster in my pants pocket. But this is not a beginner's gun; it is an expert's tool. The upside is that it was, in practical terms, invisible.
> (Jean has also become a pretty good pistol user-proven yet again today-and her preferred pistol is a tiny Kel-Tec P3AT, another "expert's tool," which she carries in a Smartcarry just inside her loose-waistband, soft and fuzzy, Polartec pants.)
> 
> I still suggest a DAO pistol to you, but you should choose one that has a fairly light trigger action-perhaps five to nine pounds. A double-action-only pistol presents you with the very same trigger action for each and every shot, which is the best system for a beginner. Further, most DAOs do not complicate your life with a safety lever to remember to press upon.
> In a classroom, if hidden properly, a DAO pistol, even one without a safety lever, will be entirely safe. I believe that a high-quality tuckable holster would be your best choice, probably worn at "4:00" (behind the strong-side hip, somewhat). Your reloads would be carried, also tucked, at about "8:00." You will very carefully have to keep your students from ever touching or hugging you-which I would have found to be a difficulty, had I not been pocket-carrying.
> 
> Carrying in a "tuckable" holster will require extra practice, in order to make effective and reasonably quick presentations. I suggest the help of a professional trainer, to accomplish this, since writing can't replace demonstrations.
> The main issue in practice, both dry- and live-fire, is to practice being _smooth_. It is counter-productive to attempt to practice being quick. If you work hard at being both smooth and physically efficient, with no wasted motion, you will very soon become quick "automatically" as your skill develops. However, if you try to practice being quick, you will waste motion, move inefficiently, and make serious tactical errors-which you will only perpetuate as you try to move even more quickly.
> 
> Those are my basic suggestions. More answers will be forthcoming upon request.
> 
> ***Jean and I travelled to the mainland today, and found a disused quarry on Forest Service land. It has a level floor and maybe as much as 500 yards of free space in front of its cliff face (on a weekday, when nobody else was there). Even including the two hours spent on the ferry, and the four hours of 'round-trip driving time, it is the perfect place for us to shoot. There seems to be a high-quality B&B within 20 miles, so next time we'll go for an entire two-day shooting orgy. I will finally be able to sight-in my rebuilt "semi-scout" rifle!


Thank you very very much for this it was truly helpful, I went to the range today. Rented the Glock 26, M&P9c, Springfield XD Subcompact, PX4, and P2000. I like them all for different things and reasons. But I can't stop thinking about the Glock. I'm not a glock fan per say because the 'blocky' grips don't fit in my hand well. But, the 26 didn't feel like that. It felt normal and actually very good. My practical accuracy with it was quite good, shooting both slow and fast.

* high-quality tuckable holster* After the night at the range, shooting, I started looking at holsters. specifically the Galco King Tuck, SkyOps and Crossbreed IWB Tuckable. Thoughts?

* Your reloads would be carried, also tucked, at about "8:00." * Suggestions on a mag tuckable mag holster? Galco, Crossbreed...

At the shop today they mentioned that I need to carry the 50gr 9mm hollow point Liberty USM4 Fragmenting round, Opinions?

I think I am going to go back one night next week and run 100 rounds though it to make sure that is the one I want before I buy. Should I look at the gen 3 or gen 4?

Thanks for everything guys


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## Jammersix

pic said:


> Back to the main topic of this thread, I personally am very uncomfortable with an inexperienced teacher learning how to properly conceal a handgun in a classroom environment .


Absolutely!

The only requirement to hang out your shingle as an instructor is a shingle, and if you're tight, you can skip that.

So the field is full of "instructors" who don't know the difference between grazing fire and a crossing target, and while they've been taught to slice the pie, they don't know what to do if your opponent starts slicing *YOUR* pie.

I've seen women teaching women's only classes eleven months after buying their first weapon, I've seen instructors claim safety rules don't apply to them, and I've seen instructors running classes on Forest Service land, out in the tulies, without even a bandaid, let alone a gunshot kit. Of course, since they've never seen a gunshot wound, let alone been trained to handle them, the kit would just be a case of bandaids, anyway. I stuck around to watch after dark, because I wanted to see what happened in his "low light" class. Yee gods. How can this get worse? Well, we can do it in the dark...

Don't get me started.

Oh, wait, too late.


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## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ...*high-quality tuckable holster* After the night at the range, shooting, I started looking at holsters. specifically the Galco King Tuck, SkyOps and Crossbreed IWB Tuckable. Thoughts?


Galco makes the highest-quality, ready-made (off-the-shelf) holsters that I've seen. Crossbreed has a good reputation too.
Crossbreed, someone else has pointed out, puts a very visible crucifix logo on their holsters' belt clips. Anybody who knows anything about guns will thereby know that you are armed. Will that be important to you?



jbultman said:


> ...*Your reloads would be carried, also tucked, at about "8:00."* Suggestions on a mag tuckable mag holster? Galco, Crossbreed...


See above.
I suggest that you carry two reload magazines.



jbultman said:


> ...At the shop today they mentioned that I need to carry the 50gr 9mm hollow point Liberty USM4 Fragmenting round, Opinions?


That's silly.
If you are ever protecting your class from attack, you will not want light-bullet, fragmenting loads. You will need _penetration_, and you will need to have practiced delivering accurate, effective fire under pressure, to make sure that your bullets don't go somewhere inappropriate.
Light, fragmenting bullets do not, as a rule, deliver fight-stopping penetration. This is particularly true against, say, a winter overcoat or other thick (or tough) clothing.



jbultman said:


> ...I think I am going to go back one night next week and run 100 rounds though it to make sure that is the one I want before I buy. Should I look at the gen 3 or gen 4?...


Here's where we need *VAMarine*.


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## VAMarine

As for the Gen 3 vs. Gen 4 Glocks...

Do you have smaller hands?
Are you left handed?
If you can get hands on both which grip texture do you like better?

Personally it doesn't make a difference to me, but if you have smaller hands or are left handed the Gen 4 might be the better choice as it has the changable back straps and reversible mag release.

DJNiner might have more info on advantages of Gen4 vs Gen3, but that's all I've got at the moment. 

I'm inclined to say that the Gen4 guns have a slightly better trigger, but I'm of the opinion that all stock Glock triggers tend to be too spongy.


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## SouthernBoy

I can weigh in on the gen3 vs gen4 question. In their subcompact guns, the gen4 has a definite advantage due to the rough texturing of the grip. You can really feel the difference between this and the grip on the gen3's. Frankly, this new texture works very well on the popular compacts, such as the 19 and 23, and the full sized guns like the 17 and 22. It really is an improvement.

As for the trigger, the gen4's out of the box can be expected to have a higher pull weight than the gen3's due to a design change in the gun. What they've done is change the safety block cam on the trigger bar so that it now has an alignment "bump" on its outside that contacts the inside starboard rail on the slide. This imparts a little drag from the friction of the contact which adds some weight to the pre-travel (stage one) of the trigger. You can improve this and I have done such with my new gen4 G22, but it is always going to be there unless you swap the trigger bar for one from a gen3 or file that bump down (I don't recommend this). At any rate, you can come up with a decent trigger on the gen4's at little cost to you.


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## jbultman

pic said:


> Back to the main topic of this thread, I personally am very uncomfortable with an inexperienced teacher learning how to properly conceal a handgun in a classroom environment . Professional or experienced would be a mandatory requirement.
> Most likely that muzzle will be pointing at the children throughout the day , even though it might/ should be properly holstered.
> Only experts need apply, I'm sorry.
> I will not allow my ten year old child with an inexperienced teacher packing a gun


Alright well here's the deal... Coincidentally, we had a staff meeting with the school board, sheriff, and superintendent yesterday. The majority decided to not allow teachers to carry in the school, next year. So I guess this whole thread is a mute point, minus what the future has in store and CCW. However everyone is going to meet next year around this time and vote on this 'issue' again. Now, with that being said they are going to allow teachers to have guns in their car, which opens a whole new can of worms, with options ranging from my first shotgun I shot that my father still has and is willing to give to me, a custom AR (I haven't decided what caliber yet) my wife is having made for me for our 15th wedding anniversary (some how some way), and my M&P 9 Full size.

I am going to take my CCW course and other classes that might help me in a situation that I might encounter. I know this wouldn't make some people feel better only because its just a class. But I do believe that within a year and a half I can be extremely proficient at using and carrying.



VAMarine said:


> As for the Gen 3 vs. Gen 4 Glocks...
> 
> Do you have smaller hands?
> Are you left handed?
> If you can get hands on both which grip texture do you like better?
> 
> Personally it doesn't make a difference to me, but if you have smaller hands or are left handed the Gen 4 might be the better choice as it has the changable back straps and reversible mag release.
> 
> DJNiner might have more info on advantages of Gen4 vs Gen3, but that's all I've got at the moment.
> 
> I'm inclined to say that the Gen4 guns have a slightly better trigger, but I'm of the opinion that all stock Glock triggers tend to be too spongy.


I have regular size hands about a 9 or 10 and am right handed. I can get my hands on both gen 3 and 4, however I have only held the gen 3. The only thing about me that is 'irregular' per-say is that I am right handed but left eye dominant. I don't know if that is an issue or not.

I am looking at the gen 4 because of the exchangeable back straps and a "stiffer" trigger. Though I believe that I am going to have to feel them to be certain which one is the best for me.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> Galco makes the highest-quality, ready-made (off-the-shelf) holsters that I've seen. Crossbreed has a good reputation too.
> Crossbreed, someone else has pointed out, puts a very visible crucifix logo on their holsters' belt clips. Anybody who knows anything about guns will thereby know that you are armed. Will that be important to you?
> 
> That's silly.
> If you are ever protecting your class from attack, you will not want light-bullet, fragmenting loads. You will need _penetration_, and you will need to have practiced delivering accurate, effective fire under pressure, to make sure that your bullets don't go somewhere inappropriate.
> Light, fragmenting bullets do not, as a rule, deliver fight-stopping penetration. This is particularly true against, say, a winter overcoat or other thick (or tough) clothing.


Galco SkyOps looks like a great hoster as VA suggested before. However there is something appealing about the Crossbreed, and from doing a little reading I found that the Crossbreed has an option for 3 different clips...










From left to right... SnapLock, J-hook and V-Clip. The Snap lock is the stock one with the cross. Now the J-hook and V-Clip are optional. It looks like the J-hook runs under your belt and a little piece is shown at the bottom. The V-Clip, from what I read attaches via Velcro on the backside of the belt. I don't know if these would be a better option. Ideas?

FYI, I'm still going to consider the SmartCarry. However I would feel more comfortable with a tuckable IWB holster.

What ammo would you take a look at then?


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## Steve M1911A1

I don't carry IWB, and I don't do "tuckable" because it's too awkward and slow, so I'm the wrong person to comment about the Crossbreed system.
However, using pure logic, I can say that I would place little faith in small-area, Velcro-only attachment for supporting or positioning a fully-loaded pistol.
"J-hook," yes. "V-hook," no.

And as for ammunition... Well, my personal preference is to use proven hollow-point bullets that produce the required (about 12") penetration in ballistic gelatin, in the heaviest weight available for the caliber (because recoil will be "softer"), loaded by a reliable, major-brand ammunition manufacturer. (Jean and I both currently carry Remington Golden Saber.)


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