# Opinion: Pit Bull



## falchunt

There are many opinions out there on Pit Bulls, from media coverage, to a pair of old fellas at the diner talking during breakfast. What's Your opinion on them?:watching:


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## Mr.clean

Bully dogs are only as aggressive as the owner teaches them to be.Although Vikings used to use pits as frontline warriors(Allthough they did use a couple of breeds,the pits consisted of 8/10's of there dog army),Unleash the dogs and run right behind em.Only as mean as they are taught.Mine dont have a mean bone in there body.


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## Todd

I had a pit mix for three days before he got parvo and we had to put him down. He was a great dog, although he was only a puppy. I think the breed gets a bad rep because losers/wanna be gang bangers/ "tough guys" have them so they get associated with that type of person and lifestyle. And let's not forget that these losers use them as fighting dogs, so the image gets hurt more. 

I watch a lot of Dog Whisperer and do agree with Cesar that any of the stronger breeds like Bullies, Shepherds, Rotties, etc, need an owner that will set limits or else the dogs, by their nature, will attempt to become dominant more then say a Shit Sue Punt-a-pet (yes, I know I speeeeled it wrong).


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## wkister029

I have owned quite a few Pitbulls in the past and have found them to be very loyal and very playful, they really don't have a mean bone in them naturally, but I have seen some that were trained to be that way.


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## JeffWard

I've been around dogs my whole life, from pits, to labs, to shepards.

Around people, pits are no more aggressive than any breed, as long as they are trained as pets. My best friend has two.

Around other dogs, pits have a loose wire... a bad one. They seem to snap a LOT faster and more often at other dogs.

Some dogs instinctively are better hunters, labs, pointers, etc. Some dogs instinctively are "mousers" like terriers, Jack Russels, etc... Some dogs are instinctively more aggressive like pits. They're not trained to be nasty, its hard wired.

Jeff Ward


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## Bisley

Bulldogs are more dangerous than most other breeds because they are just so damn tough, and relentless, once they decide to fight. 

I grew up with bulldogs, have raised them from puppies, and have even re-trained one that the owner gave me, so he would not have to have him destroyed. They are good dogs, but if one has been abused, or improperly trained, the wise thing to do is just destroy it, because they are just too damn tough to deal with, and cannot be trusted. 

You can raise one to be gentle, from a puppy, and he will probably protect you and the family with his life, for his entire life. But, just never forget what they were bred to do, and what they are capable of. I am a firm believer that no dog should ever be left alone with small kids.


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## Tuefelhunden

I think they mostly get a bad rap. Media doesn't fixate on the cute and cuddly but rather the dangerous and shocking. Never known one personally. I will say due to their physical characteristics I think Pit Bulls are dangerous or maybe a better way to put it is a calculated risk. Power output potential at adult hood is pretty hard to contest. I agree that their nature and how they or any breed interacts with other animals or people has much to do with training and whether they have been abused or loved.

I tend to be a big fan of all dogs and most seem to take to me as well. I have 2 Golden Retrievers currently and it's a rare occurance I meet a dog I don't like or doesn't like me. As a kid I was actually bitten twice by dogs. Once by a small poodle on the ankle for daring to walk by his house and once by a much larger dog (breed unknown) on the side of my jaw/throat when I accidentally stepped on his paw (presumably) when I gave him a hug. I was about 8 at the time. Neither incident jaded my opinion then or now of dogs. I like them, always have and always will. I do think it is worth taking into account power potential however.

If that had been a Pit bull (or insert your formidable breed of choice here) that bit my jaw as a tot would I have just gotten the 20 stitches and an ice cream cone for my troubles or would I be dead or maimed? I do know that I could step on the foot of either one of my 80lb retrievers as an adult and get nothing more than a hurt look and maybe a yelp. That is thier instinctive reaction. I don't think their is any such thing as a bad evil breed out there. I really don't. But I do think one has to carefully weigh their own risk tolerence and make an educated decision. I don't think pits are inherently bad. But they have some features and dynamics due to no fault of their own that certainly make them more of a risk than some other breeds. Not necessarily a negative but this is not a plug and play dog you leave to it's own devises. Many breeds aren't.

For those who keep Pit Bulls because they think that they are the badest of the bad and like that persona I have some bad news. They are not. That title belongs to the Bull Mastiff. Whenever you have an animal that can cleanly seperate the head from the shoulders of a full size police trained German Shepard in the blink of an eye with one decisive chomp as a freind of mines Mastiff did up in Seattle at a police academy a few years ago that is an eye opener. Mild mannered, mellow, love any human that loved him back. Regularily rode around the block with the UPS driver. 180lb lap kitty. Apparently didn't care for the biting and snarling business that Shepard tried to lay on him however.


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## FatRotty

My Pit is fine, behaves well with my other dogs and children. I still watch how the kids play with her.
Don't let them ruffhouse with her.


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## Mr.clean

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa157/yillo2007/?action=view&current=b78e33ca.flv
Watch this video,just like in the vid other dogs attack.


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## falchunt

That is a _great_ video mr clean!


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## Cope's Distributing

I have been around pits all my life I now own two pits and a rott. My Pits are babies. They dont bark, they dont grow, they are just big lap dogs. My aunt and uncle breed pits and have never in all the years had one that turned on them or anyone that took them.


I have been bitten by a dog before and have scars from it, One was a lab yes a loveing lab that would never do that. Wrong it did. The owner use to beat the dog for barking or for running or anything. I get really upset when people say pits are bad. Not true ANY DOG CAN TURN ON YOU!!!! I have had many dogs in my life and I can tell you that most little dogs are worst to have then big dogs. 

I leave my kids out in the yard every day with my pits and rott. If my kids go out of my sight one of the dogs wil come and sit by me then whine a little bit I will go to see what is going on. They do not leave my kids side one dog is always with them no matter what. 

I was working in my garden last night. My two boys were playing in the yard. My youngest goes into the driveway where they are not alllowed to play to throw rocks. I can not see him due to my car being in the way. Blaze comes running to me and lays down then alex starts barking I go over to see what is up and my rott dozer is standing in front of my son not letting him go anywhere and alex is letting me know where he is at. 

My kids ride our dogs like horses and they can walk with us on our nightly walk with out leashes. There is no bad breed only bad owners.


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## Cope's Distributing

Mr.clean said:


> http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa157/yillo2007/?action=view&current=b78e33ca.flv
> Watch this video,just like in the vid other dogs attack.


Love this movie it was what I was trying to say!!!!


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## AirForceShooter

had a neighbor with a pit.
Sweet nice dog. Got along with my dog and others.

Then one day were all out meetning the pit and owner me and my lab and another guy with his Dalmatian.
Everything was fine.

Dalmatian guy and his dog go to leave.
For no reason pit goes after the spotted doggy. I mean tore into him.
3 of us trying to pull the pit off.

Dalmatian took 128 stitches to stop the bleeding.

It could have been my lab or any of us humans.
After that, I won't trust a pit.

AFS


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## falchunt

AFS,

I am not disagreeing with you, or saying you are wrong in any way, just a simple question:

If your neighbors dog was a german shepard or a lab, would you feel the same way about not trusting that breed after the incident? I wonder if the over exposure of this specific breed in the media (all negative) subconciously altered your outlook on them. Think about it.


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## Cope's Distributing

AirForceShooter said:


> had a neighbor with a pit.
> Sweet nice dog. Got along with my dog and others.
> 
> Ten one day were all out meaning the pit and owner me and my lab and another guy with his Dalmatian.
> Everything id fine.
> 
> Dalmatian guy and his dog go to leave.
> For no reason pit goes after the spotted doggy. I mean tore into him.
> 3 of us trying to pull the pit off.
> 
> Dalmatian took 128 stitches to stop the bleeding.
> 
> It could have been my lab or any of us humans.
> After that, I won't trust a pit.
> 
> AFS


I have the same question. If the dog was a husky or boxer would you feel that way hate the breed?


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## Mr.clean

falchunt said:


> That is a _great_ video mr clean!


WORD.When people say pits are dangerous,i tell them IGNORANCE is dangerous.


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## DevilsJohnson

I had one until he was stolen. Great dog. Fantastic with children. The one difference I see between a pit and many other dogs of their size is they seem a little smarter and easier to train most the time. My best friend has one now. They are much like other large dogs. They need to understand where their place in the pack is. That is the same with all dogs really. Big dogs it's just a little more noticeable..They're BIG!. Bit with the proper time a Pit will become a great addition to the family. Also like most other dogs if you just toss it in the back yard and don't do anything with it they can feel dejected and will bark, chew up things, dig up the yard and sometimes act like a pain in the ass.

I personally like German Shepperd more but if the opportunity come around and I was able to get another Pit I would have to really think about it. You will not find a more loyal animal. But like all dogs you have to take the time to train it. Make it feel like it's part of your family. You will be paid back for that time many times over. They seem to learn things on their own that many other breeds wont. My friends will stay between him and any other person if he sees a pistol on their side. Unless he knows them pretty well. It seems to make him a little nervous. He wont get loud or try to get them. He will just make sure that he is between the gun wearer and his master. He loves all other dogs, even other dogs that have come around and given him trouble he wont attack them. He will run after them and when he gets tot hem he will run into them and make them fall over :buttkick: But that is about all. I've seen him get bit and not really do much about it. He will get them off of him then go about his business. The one I had was the same way. 

When a Pit does something like attack another dog it seems to be a big deal. Much bigger than if it was some other breed of dog. I guess because they are big and people have given them a bad reputation. If the owner does work to make them fight yes, you have a bog problem on your hands. They can kill another dog pretty easily if they really wanted to. But that is not ingrained into the breed. I think it's just because they are big and scary that people don't like them. Kind of like liberals and black rifles. They are big and scary so we need to make sure we protect ourselves from them.

The Pit Bull is the AR 15 of the dog world.:smt083
:watching:


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## AirForceShooter

I don't trust Boxers either.
Saw one of those go off.
I love Rotties and Dobies though and I've had shepards.

AFS


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## falchunt

AFS, you did not answer the question at all, but it's OK. I think I get the picture.

Very well said DJ. I have never heard that analogy before but it really fits. I have noticed that my dogs have all been very very smart dogs. All 3 of my pits that I have had know/knew how to open my storm door on the porch, using the handle. That is just an example.

My take on Pit Bulls is this:
Pit Bulls are some of the most versatille dogs on the planet. They are abnormally athletic. Most often they are very strong. They are smarter than most breeds. They are very easy to train. They have the highest drive to please their owner of all breeds. It is a FACT that Pit Bulls have a low temperment. Cocker Spaniels have one of the highest. All of these are good traits.
All of these things together, are the exact reason that _people_, not the breed, have made poor decisions. People have used the good traits of a Pit Bull, for bad things such as fighting. Because bad people have abused and misused a good dog, ignorant people now view the breed as a dangerous and violent breed. This could not be further from the truth. If more of the general public got a chance to really know Pit Bulls, this would not be the case at all.


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## kg333

My thoughts are mostly "bad owners, not bad breeds". I think it'd be a mistake to think pit bulls, Dobermans, and similar breeds don't have a certain natural aggression due to their origins, but it's certainly nothing that can't be handled by training.

The big issue I see with people who own Dobermans, rotts, and pit bulls is a lack of respect for the sheer _size_ of the animals. These breeds are 80-90 pounds plus, and it's all muscle. I get extremely pissed off at people like my neighbors down the street, who stuck two rotties behind an electric fence in their front yard. I saw them out of their yard at least twice, once when I was walking my own dog past (80 pound Lab/Samoyed mix). They just wanted to sniff, apparently, but it still made me freak out, since they'd been back in the bushes in their yard and charged growling halfway across the street to get to me and pooch. I see these same dogs being walked by their owners' 6 year old daughter, who isn't even close to the size required to control one of these dogs if they get ancy.

If you're going to own a large dog like that, I think you should take the time to understand what you could potentially be taking on, instead of the "Daisy wouldn't hurt anyone" attitude I hear so often.

KG


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## tekhead1219

How many attacks on neighbors and kids from Pit Bull's that are great, gentle dogs?


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## JeffWard

My best friend owns a pit, and an American Bulldog. They are both the friendliest, sweetest dogs you ever met. Neither has ever snapped at a human. Both are VERY smart, well trained, and disciplined dogs. Great family dogs...

Until I took one for a walk in my mother's neighborhood, unfamiliar to the dog, where it encountered a Golden Retriever who is VERY docile, about 12 years old, and the same size as the pit. The two went nose to nose, and nose to rear, to sniff things out. Male Pit, female Golden...

With seemingly NO provocation, no sudden movements, and after 3 minutes of pleasant conversation, the Pit damn near removed the upper lip of the Golden. Took me 20-30 sec to separate the pit. The Golden was whimpering and trying to escape, with NO aggression. The Pit would NOT let go. I had to drive my fingers into his mouth and squeeze his lips against his teeth to get him to release (proper technique).

The dog just plain snapped, and attacked the other dog. I've never seen this in any other breed. Only heard of it in Akitas, and a few others. This is an isolated incident, but stereotype develop for reasons.

I love these dogs like my own. I've had them in my home for months on end. He would never bite me. But after that experience, I'd never take him around an unfamiliar dog. Period.

JefWard


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## Bisley

Years ago, one of my rural neighbors had a cross-bred pit that weighed about 40 pounds, that he used to catch belligerent cows, steers, etc. He had brought a bull calf to me, (about 400 lbs.) in payment for some fence I had built for him, and when he released the calf, it took off straight to a hole in the fence, and was immediately loose in the woods. He and his son spent about an hour trying to catch and rope the calf, to no avail, so he resorted to his hole card - the bulldog.

He untied the dog and simply said, "go git 'im." In about two minutes, the calf came running out of the woods, and as soon as he hit the opening, the bulldog ran under him and grabbed him by the nose and backed up between his front legs. The bull calf skidded to a stop and froze in position, his head tucked between his front legs, where the dog was still attached.

Knowing how bulldogs are, I asked him how he was going to get the dog to turn loose. He looked at me with a pained expression, and said, "there's only one way." Then, after his son casually placed a rope around the calf's neck, he bent over and started squeezing the dogs balls with both hands, until he yelped and turned loose to snap at his tormentor. As soon as the dog turned loose, he grabbed his collar, and the dog went back to his normal friendly behavior.


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## Mr.clean

There are many horror stories.Many dogs,they are after all animals.Humans attack as well,animal instinct.


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## dosborn

There are good and bad dogs of all breeds. Pits do tend to draw the media's attention more because alot, but not all, of the people that own them are the just as bad.

I just got a red Dobie about 6-7 weeks ago. He is a very intelegent pup (almost 4 months old) but in the wrong hands could be dangerous. His name is Bocephus by the way.:mrgreen:


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## thelonerang3r

I've never owned a pit, but several of my friends have in the past. The only time I've seen these animals get aggressive, they thought I shouldn't be there or were taken by surprise. A simple scolding by the owner and the dog laid down and went back to a lump on the carpet or changed demeanor and asked for a little loving. I've seen the same traits in the labs/ shepherds I had growing up. Dogs are meant to be big (good first line of home defense). I don't discriminate against breeds but am always cautious around an unfamiliar animal- regardless of size.


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## Mr.clean

caution is good


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## Robertkernahan729

*pits are big babys*

i have 2 pits that get along fine with every one people oher dogs dosen matter they get a bad rap from retards that have never had one and belives everything the news tells them:numbchuck:


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## Robertkernahan729

*more stitches from taco bell dogs*

so many more bites than pits little dogs are vicious bites just go unreported


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## James NM

Pit Bulls. Well let's see.

It's about Midnight here in New Mexico on a Saturday night. I'm sitting in my office with my best friend since Sept '01. Lady Bug is a Lab mix that I rescued from a bad home/environment when she was about two years old. I have been a dog owner/lover for about 45 years, and I can say without reservation that Lady Bug is the best dog I have ever known, and I've owned a lot. I own my own business, and this has allowed Lady Bug and I to spend almost every minute of every day together for the last eight years. She has literally been my shadow - where I go, my shadow follows.

Over Labor Day weekend, (two weeks ago) Lady Bug got deathly ill, could not/would not eat, was throwing up, and I feared, near death. When the Vet opened on Tuesday (after Labor Day) I took Lady Bug in to see what was wrong with her. She was running a fever of about 105 degrees, so the Vet gave her a shot of antibiotics and a prescription for more for me to give her orally.

Over the next week and a half, Lady Bug got better, her fever broke, but was still weak. Blood tests revealed that she had an infection of some type, but we don't know what was wrong with her. Before she got sick she weighed 63 pounds, but by today she has lost about 10% of her body weight. She has been eating again, but doesn't have much of an appetite. She is once again my shadow, but moves very slowly and is clearly not herself yet.

So, enough history. This afternoon, my 17 year old niece, one of her girlfriends, and my employee were doing some cleanup on my property so that my niece could bring in a horse. My neighbor's Pit Bull mix charged them, unprovoked, while they were on my property. My employee removed his belt, and started swinging it at the Pit Bull mix to ward it off. Lady Bug saw the Pit Bull attack, and came to the rescue. In her weakened state, she was no match, but she knew her duty. 

I was in the shop when I heard hollering, screaming, and all hell brake loose. I came running as fast as and old, fat, out of shape man could. When I rounded the corner, I saw Lady Bug on the ground and the Pit Bull mix on top of her, trying to shred her to bits. I knew that when I hit the Pit Bull full speed with my foot, that I would knock it off Lady Bug. I was wrong. 

The Pit Bull didn't release it's death grip, so my next instinct was to pull my pistol and shoot the aggressor. But instead, I hit the Pit on it's head thinking that would work - nope. Next I grabbed the Pit's leather collar and tried to pull it off Lady Bug, but all that did was pick up the Pit and Lady Bug, as the Pit had it's jaws clamped on Lady Bug's throat. I then noticed that the Pit also had a chain collar, so I grabbed the chain, twisted it, and hoped I could choke the Pit enough that it would have to release it's grip. Just as I was about to give up and was reaching for my pistol, the Pit finally succumbed to the choke down and released it's grip.

As they carried Lady Bug away, I held the Pit in the choke hold so everyone could retreat. The Pit looked me in the eye, Lady Bug's blood dripping from it's mouth, and the only thing I saw in it's eyes was pure evil. It was all I could do to fight the urge to destroy this beast. But in the end, I love animals, have trained to pull my CC weapon only as a last resort, so I released my choke hold and let the Pit retreat to it's own property.

Well, it's taken me well over an hour to type this, as I stop frequently to comfort Lady Bug, to hold the water bowl so she can drink, to reach for another Kleenex, and to try to regain my composure. I know not whether Lady Bug will live, I have preyed so, but fear the worst. She has not moved from her bed since we returned from the Vet about 10 hours ago, but at least she is drinking some water.

So, let's talk about Pit Bulls. I always thought that Pit Bulls got a bad rap and it was the owner's fault if they were mean and aggressive. But my neighbors are just ordinary people. They are like 60 years old. They are not criminals or drug dealers. They just happened to own a Pit Bull mix.

So what do I think about Pit Bulls? I say to hell with them. My employee tells me that before I got to the scene, the Pit had Lady Bug by the throat and was throwing her around like a rag doll. Had I been there and seen this happen, New Mexico would have one less Pit Bull to worry about.


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## falchunt

Sorry to hear that James, I hope your Lady Bug pulls through. 

On the main topic though, I witnessed the same thing with a beagle, so to hell with all beagles.


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## James NM

falchunt said:


> Sorry to hear that James, I hope your Lady Bug pulls through...


She's doing better, thank you.



> On the main topic though, I witnessed the same thing with a beagle, so to hell with all beagles


Yea, I hear you.

I mean, has there ever been a more vicious dog than Snoopy?

Now, back to the "main topic". Just for grins, what happens with you poll if everywhere you see the word "Dog", you substitute "Snake", and every where you see the words "Pit Bull", you substitute the words "Rattle Snake"?


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## TimothyS

The ignorance on the issue is by fa one of the most ridiculous. I personally own 4 2 of which stay in the house and our big babies. The breed was originally bred to fight and in this process aggression towards humans was bred out. So as records show pit bulls are less likely to bite a human than pomeranians. For example which are in the top ten for most human aggressive dogs. OK here it is for you all
There is a Dog Statistics done on every dog each year that shows what dogs are more aggresive than others. Don't believe me look it up. Atts - Amercian Temperament Test Society
Anything above 80% is good!!!!:smt023
Dalmation 81.8%, Husky 86.6%, German Shepard/ cop dog 83.5%, Rotts
82.6%, Mastiff 83.9%, *American Pit Bull Terrier 84.3%*, American Staffordshire 83.4%, Staffordshire Bull Terrier 85.3%, and Boxer 84.3

Now the beloved little dogs..:smt076
Collie 53.3%, Bichon Frise 79.3%, Corgi 75.4%, Chihuahua 70.3%,
Dachshund 70.2%, Setter 75%, Schnauzer 75.5%, Lhasa Apso 69.2%

So you see that beloved dogs are more human aggressive than the dangerous pit bull!!!:numbchuck:


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## TimothyS

Sorry James I understand your point but I had a lab kill one of my pits when he was 4 months old the lab was 2 years old got out the neighbors yard. I'm not saying that some pits aren't dag agressive, but they're not likely to be human aggressive so before we judge the breed and say kill'em all lets first get rid of the mean breds such as Collie 53.3%, Bichon Frise 79.3%, Corgi 75.4%, Chihuahua 70.3%,
Dachshund 70.2%, Setter 75%, Schnauzer 75.5%, Lhasa Apso 69.2%
Just to name a few!!!


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## falchunt

James, 
For the record, I was not being sarcastic when I was talking about the beagle. Actually, the beagle was my grandfathers. He is a fantastic rabbit hunting dog. Built like a tank, and has a nose like no other. He absolutely will not tolerate any other animals being on my Grandfather's property. He killed a black lab (stray) back in 01. He also attacked my mothers' toy collie, puncturing her rib area several times before I got there and pulled him off. The point is, what happend to your dog (glad to hear shes doing better) does not make any breed bad. Just makes *a* dog dangerous. And TimothyS is putting up some real facts on this page.


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## kg333

Alright, breaking out the stats...here's the CDC's reports on human dog bite related fatalities:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Summary of the totals from 1979-1999, excluding "police dogs at work" as indicated in the report (which would skew the data towards Dobermanns, I assume).


CDC said:


> Pit bull-type: 66
> Rottweiler: 39
> German Shepherd Dog: 17
> Husky-type: 15
> Malamute: 12
> Doberman Pinscher: 9
> Chow Chow: 8
> Great Dane: 7
> Saint Bernard: 7


Also from the report:


CDC said:


> Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF [edit: dog bite related fatality] reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through 1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996.


Basically, I think the conclusion that can be reached from this data and Timothy's is that small dogs are more likely to bite. However, given a bite, pit-bulls, rottweilers, and other large breeds are more likely to kill you.

KG


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## TimothyS

I see CDC facts which are *ten years old*, but as you stated pitbull types. Thats where the media causes the problems they include any dog thats in the bully breed or looks like a pit such as blocky head. So your CDC report maybe fact however it includes way more than pit bulls. I agree with KG but working in a field(I check electric meters on properties of all kinds) where dogs attack you for coming in their territory. I've never been bit by a pit or rott and I've been bitten 12 times. However I've got a scare on my ankle from a collie, was bit 2 times by a beagle mix, 1 saint bernard, 1 shepherd, 1 basset hound,and others that where mix breeds. My wife has a small scare on her face from her mothers Pomeranian.

EVERYONE SHOULD WATCH THIS!!!


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## TimothyS

http://www.pitbulllovers.com

Ten Facts About Pit Bulls Every One Should Know 
1. Pit Bulls are commonly used as therapy dogs. Whether they are visiting a senior care facility or helping someone recover from an emotional accident, Pit Bulls are making a mark as outstanding therapy dogs.

2. Pit Bulls are used in Search and Rescue work. One example of well known SAR Pit Bulls is Kris Crawford and her dogs. Kris and her dogs have helped save the lives of many people during their efforts. http://www.ForPitsSake.org

3. Pit Bulls serve as narcotic and bomb sniffing dogs. One Pit Bull, Popsicle (named that because he was found in an old freezer) has the largest recorded single drug find in Texas history. Read more about Popsicle here. Including how he found over 3,000 lbs of cocaine in Hildago, Texas.

4. Pit Bulls are great with kids. They weren't referred to as the "nanny's dog" for nothing that's for sure.

5. Pit Bulls are not human aggressive. The American Pit Bull Terrier as a breed is not human aggressive. In fact, quite the opposite is true of the breed. They are gentle and loving dogs. Like any dog individuals can be unsound and have behavior problems.

6. The Pit Bull was so popular in the early 1900's they were our mascot not only in World War One, but World War Two as well. They were featured on recruiting and propoganda posters during this time period.

7. Sgt. Stubby. A Pit Bull war hero. Stubby was wounded in action twice, he saved his entire platoon by warning them of a poison gas attack and he single handedly captured a German spy.

8. Pete the Pup on the orginal Little Rascals was a Pit Bull.

9. Pit Bulls score an 83.4% passing rate with the American Temperament Test Society. That's better than the popular Border Collie (a breed who scores 79.6%). View the ATTS stats here.

10. They are dogs not killing machines.


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## js

Why are they called Pit Bulls...?
:watching:


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## Todd

js said:


> Why are they called Pit Bulls...?
> :watching:


Is this a test of peoples' Google-Fu? :numbchuck:


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## js

Todd said:


> Is this a test of peoples' Google-Fu? :numbchuck:


well, my Golden Retriever has the name "Retriever" because it's in his genetics to retrieve. He was created for that purpose through breeding. He pretty much walks around 24/7 with a red ball in his mouth just waiting for someone to throw it so he can go and get it...then drop it at your feet to repeat the process. The "Shepherd" breed are bred to help herd... Poodles are water dogs, Mastiff's are bred to protect... Pointers point... yada, yada, yada... I'm just curious as to why a "Pit Bull" has the name of "Pit Bull".


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## kg333

TimothyS said:


> I see CDC facts which are *ten years old*, but as you stated pitbull types.


Are you claiming that dog behavior has changed in the past ten years? :watching:



TimothyS said:


> I've never been bit by a pit or rott and I've been bitten 12 times.


If you followed the point I was trying to make, you'd realize the above statement is one possible reason you're posting on this board instead of pushing up daisies. I'm not saying pit bulls are more likely to attack, as you continue to try to refute, but that they are a fundamentally more dangerous dog because of the harm when they do attack.

To try to provide another example, I spend a lot of time walking around on a college campus, and I'm far more likely to get run over by a student on a bicycle than by one of the semi trucks that stops by every so often. I got hit just the other day by a yahoo on a bike, in fact. However, if you asked whether I considered the bikes or the semis more dangerous, I'm going to answer "semi" every time. Why? Not because I'm more likely to get hit, which isn't true, but because if I do get hit by a truck, I'm going to be a grease spot on the street.

Same deal with the small dog/pit bull argument. You could show stats that say a toy poodle is 100 times more likely to bite than a pit bull, but virtually no one is going to die from a vicious toy poodle. A pit bull, on the other hand, is quite large and muscular enough to kill anyone younger than a teenager or anyone is handicapped in some other way against an attack.

In my book, this is what makes pit bulls and the like "a more dangerous breed".

KG


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## Tucker

Hmmm...I was police trained in my younger days because I was stalked once. The police people whom I had a good relationship with at the station near my work gave me a Rottweiler/German Shepherd X when I approached them for protection. Since then I have always have to have a Rottweiler or a Rottie/GS around me, not for so much for protection now but because of their temperament -- they are loyal and protective...and intuitive and loves training. I've lost two Rotties last year for health reasons. Picked up another one -- a Texas Rottie, tail intact, very babyish...still a baby up to now even at over a 100 lbs. I train him and he goes to training class for socialization. Never attacked anyone but will lick people who comes near him to death, I suppose...

Now my son in Melbourne (Australia) has a pure-bred pitbull. He wasn't trained but he is trainable. I go home as much as I can and first time we (pitbull and me) met, I find his jumping very irritable so for that two weeks, I trained him to sit everytime -- you know, the usual sit before going out of the door, sit before coming in, sit when he wants to jump at me, etc. He caught on very quick. Sonny boy told me he bought this pitbull because he was intrigue by the breed. He gets to be too much sometimes but he is OK with me and my husband when we are home there...we constantly teach him anything and play with him. My son caught on later on because we have to go back home here in the US and he will have to grin and bear his dog's behavior. Three weeks ago when I went back home to Melbourne, he frustratedly said to me that he wished he just bought a Rottie. I told him it does not matter what sort of breed he has, it will still behave the way he let it. Training is the key.


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## Todd

js said:


> well, my Golden Retriever has the name "Retriever" because it's in his genetics to retrieve. He was created for that purpose through breeding. He pretty much walks around 24/7 with a red ball in his mouth just waiting for someone to throw it so he can go and get it...then drop it at your feet to repeat the process. The "Shepherd" breed are bred to help herd... Poodles are water dogs, Mastiff's are bred to protect... Pointers point... yada, yada, yada... I'm just curious as to why a "Pit Bull" has the name of "Pit Bull".


Damn, now I really miss my Golden. I gotta get another someday soon. Time to start working on the "boss".

IIRC, one of their purposes waaaaaay back was to either herd or fight bulls. I have no idea where the "Pit" part comes from. Now I must research!


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## falchunt

Do you really not know where the name came from js?


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## js

falchunt said:


> Do you really not know where the name came from js?


I'm being sarcastic... but if someone wants a little history lesson, it's provided below...



> American Pit Bull Terrier
> 
> The American Pit Bull Terrier is the product of interbreeding between terriers and a now-extinct breed of bulldogs to produce a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the bulldog. These dogs were initially bred in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and arrived in the United States with immigrants from these countries. In the United States these dogs were used as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions; however, some were selectively bred for their fighting prowess, and starting in the early 20th century they began to replace the bull terrier as the "dog of choice" for dog fighting in the United States.
> 
> The United Kennel Club (UKC) was the first registry to recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. UKC founder C. Z. Bennett assigned UKC registration number 1 to his own dog, Bennett's Ring, as an American Pit Bull Terrier in 1898.
> 
> American pit bull terriers today successfully fill the role of companion dog, police dog, and therapy dog; however, *American pit bull terriers in general have a higher tendency towards dog aggression and constitute the majority of dogs used for illegal dog fighting in the United States.* The fighting reputation of pit bull-type dogs led the San Francisco Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in 1996 to relabel pit bull terriers as "St. Francis Terriers" (not to be confused with the "Terrier" mascot of St. Francis College in New York) so that they might be more readily adopted; 60 temperament-screened dogs were adopted until the program was halted after several of the newly adopted dogs killed cats. The New York City Center for Animal Care and Control tried a similar approach in 2004 by relabeling their pit bull terriers as "New Yorkies," but dropped the idea in the face of overwhelming public opposition.


Let's re-cap: American *pit bull terriers in general have a higher tendency towards dog aggression* and constitute the majority of dogs used for illegal dog fighting in the United States


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## James NM

js said:


> ...Let's re-cap: American *pit bull terriers in general have a higher tendency towards dog aggression* and constitute the majority of dogs used for illegal dog fighting in the United States


But that's only because the _Killer_ Beagle has long been outlawed - by International Treaty, I forget which one - from dog fighting. The _Killer_ Beagle goes through Pit Bulls like a _Killer_ Bunny goes through Knights.


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## rocweiller

Its how they are raised in my opinion. My dad had a mean ass border collie, that hated kids since the day we got him. Turned out the people we bought him from had a son who teased him and thatw as all he wrote.. Im more a a Rottweiller mastiff type guy myself.. Big somebeach's ..LOL


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## Jimmy Paperboy

My brother has a pit bull and that is the most docile dog I have ever met. It's a little girl and she doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body. She is stout as an ox but sweet as an angel. I really do think it has to do with the environment a dog lives in. Even if a dog is born with aggression it is up to the owner how to control it.


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## bigrobwoot

James NM said:


> Pit Bulls. Well let's see.
> 
> It's about Midnight here in New Mexico on a Saturday night. I'm sitting in my office with my best friend since Sept '01. Lady Bug is a Lab mix that I rescued from a bad home/environment when she was about two years old. I have been a dog owner/lover for about 45 years, and I can say without reservation that Lady Bug is the best dog I have ever known, and I've owned a lot. I own my own business, and this has allowed Lady Bug and I to spend almost every minute of every day together for the last eight years. She has literally been my shadow - where I go, my shadow follows.
> 
> Over Labor Day weekend, (two weeks ago) Lady Bug got deathly ill, could not/would not eat, was throwing up, and I feared, near death. When the Vet opened on Tuesday (after Labor Day) I took Lady Bug in to see what was wrong with her. She was running a fever of about 105 degrees, so the Vet gave her a shot of antibiotics and a prescription for more for me to give her orally.
> 
> Over the next week and a half, Lady Bug got better, her fever broke, but was still weak. Blood tests revealed that she had an infection of some type, but we don't know what was wrong with her. Before she got sick she weighed 63 pounds, but by today she has lost about 10% of her body weight. She has been eating again, but doesn't have much of an appetite. She is once again my shadow, but moves very slowly and is clearly not herself yet.
> 
> So, enough history. This afternoon, my 17 year old niece, one of her girlfriends, and my employee were doing some cleanup on my property so that my niece could bring in a horse. My neighbor's Pit Bull mix charged them, unprovoked, while they were on my property. My employee removed his belt, and started swinging it at the Pit Bull mix to ward it off. Lady Bug saw the Pit Bull attack, and came to the rescue. In her weakened state, she was no match, but she knew her duty.
> 
> I was in the shop when I heard hollering, screaming, and all hell brake loose. I came running as fast as and old, fat, out of shape man could. When I rounded the corner, I saw Lady Bug on the ground and the Pit Bull mix on top of her, trying to shred her to bits. I knew that when I hit the Pit Bull full speed with my foot, that I would knock it off Lady Bug. I was wrong.
> 
> The Pit Bull didn't release it's death grip, so my next instinct was to pull my pistol and shoot the aggressor. But instead, I hit the Pit on it's head thinking that would work - nope. Next I grabbed the Pit's leather collar and tried to pull it off Lady Bug, but all that did was pick up the Pit and Lady Bug, as the Pit had it's jaws clamped on Lady Bug's throat. I then noticed that the Pit also had a chain collar, so I grabbed the chain, twisted it, and hoped I could choke the Pit enough that it would have to release it's grip. Just as I was about to give up and was reaching for my pistol, the Pit finally succumbed to the choke down and released it's grip.
> 
> As they carried Lady Bug away, I held the Pit in the choke hold so everyone could retreat. The Pit looked me in the eye, Lady Bug's blood dripping from it's mouth, and the only thing I saw in it's eyes was pure evil. It was all I could do to fight the urge to destroy this beast. But in the end, I love animals, have trained to pull my CC weapon only as a last resort, so I released my choke hold and let the Pit retreat to it's own property.
> 
> Well, it's taken me well over an hour to type this, as I stop frequently to comfort Lady Bug, to hold the water bowl so she can drink, to reach for another Kleenex, and to try to regain my composure. I know not whether Lady Bug will live, I have preyed so, but fear the worst. She has not moved from her bed since we returned from the Vet about 10 hours ago, but at least she is drinking some water.
> 
> So, let's talk about Pit Bulls. I always thought that Pit Bulls got a bad rap and it was the owner's fault if they were mean and aggressive. But my neighbors are just ordinary people. They are like 60 years old. They are not criminals or drug dealers. They just happened to own a Pit Bull mix.
> 
> So what do I think about Pit Bulls? I say to hell with them. My employee tells me that before I got to the scene, the Pit had Lady Bug by the throat and was throwing her around like a rag doll. Had I been there and seen this happen, New Mexico would have one less Pit Bull to worry about.


That is a horrible story, but I disagree with you that it isn't your neighbors' fault. If you own a dog, you have to train it.

I got a pit bull 2 years ago because I have always been afraid of them. I was 20 at the time, and went to the SPCA to get one as young as I could. I figured that if I trained one, I would fall in love with the breed. I was right.

She was stubborn as a mule when I got her, and 5 months old, 50 lbs. Luckily, I'm a pretty big guy, so I could handle her trying to throw her weight around. Now she's 75-80, and it'd be hard to train her if she didn't already respect me. I have never hit my dog, I don't believe in it, especially one that I get from a shelter. But she does respect me, because I spent months training her to be the dog I wanted her to be. Very few people so this nowadays, everyone expects a dog to just behave.

I have heard stories like yours with a bunch of breeds. I'm sure the dog had a bunch of pent-up energy and aggression because they wouldn't give it the excercise it needs. Pit bulls are very active and need at least an hour of excercise a day, or they will be trouble makers.

My dog is at the point where if she is gettig attacked at the dog park, I can say no, and she will run to my side with the dog biting her. I have use her to help train a friend's aggressive dog, because I know she won't react to the other dog as long as she knows that I am in control of the situation.

Also, ask anyone who has met her, she is the sweetest dog ever. She just wants to be a lap dog, even though she's pushing 80 lbs.

I stand by my opinion that it is the owner and not the dog. My neighbor's 100 lb German shepherd attacked my dog once, and she just peed when she saw him coming. Literally squatted and peed. She can sound like a mean dog from behind a fence, but I appreciate that, because she's protecting me. She will growl and get tense if she hears something outside, but if I show her that I'm okay, then she chills back out. I'm proud to have her as a first line of defense in my house, and I'm also proud that if she is outside, I don't have to watch her because I know how good she is with everyone and all breeds of dogs.

Because of the constant training I give her, she is the best dog anyone could hope for. But it took a lot of work, not just sitting there hoping she'll "grow out of it", which is what most people do.


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## bigrobwoot

js said:


> I'm being sarcastic... but if someone wants a little history lesson, it's provided below...
> 
> Let's re-cap: American *pit bull terriers in general have a higher tendency towards dog aggression* and constitute the majority of dogs used for illegal dog fighting in the United States


That's not the dog's fault. I have a couple friends that are 260ish lbs, and if I was having a people fight, those 2 are the 2 I would "train" to fight. They are the nicest, most soft-spoken guys I know, but they could be "taught" to kill you with their bare hands. If that is how they were brought up, would that be their fault, or their trainers' (parents')?

Pit bulls do make great fight dogs because they are tough as hell, and I have yet to see mine feel pain, even though she is constantly cut up from crawling under the deck in the back yard, or getting beat up by my roommate's dog, or slams her head or body into a wall at a full sprint. That doesn't mean that she _has_ to fight, or is compelled to fight. In fact, I trained her not to even protect herself at the dog park, because everyone would assume that the pit bull is the aggressor.


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## falchunt

Excellent point bigrobwoot, that is a very good analogy of something that is not easy to explain.


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## bigrobwoot

Thank you. It's something that I'm pretty passionate about, because I used to be scared of pit bulls, until I owned one. I try not to let my points get drown out by all of the emotion I put in my posts about it, so it's good to see part of my point got through


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## Atroxus

Pit bulls can be great pets. There are extremely loyal and very eager to please their owners. These traits are what makes them so prized as fight dogs. They are not inherently violent dogs, the people that train them for fights *make* them violent. Unless you train them to be agressive, pit bulls are generally gentle mild mannered dogs. When I was a kid I was in a day care center for several years where the people that ran the day care bred/sold pit bulls to supplement their income. Never once did the dogs bite any of the kids in their care. Obviously they did not breed them or train them for fighting. According to a recent study in the journal _Applied Animal Behaviour Science_ the top three most agressive dogs were the dachsund, chihuahua, and jack russel terrier. It all boils down to proper training in the end though.


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## omegajb

Pit Bull's can be the most wonderful dogs and if you get them as a puppy and work with them you should never have a problem. However if you get one in a shelter you don't know how it was raised.

The thing with pit bulls if they snap that jaw can lock on a kids arm and you would have to kill it to get them loose.


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## Freedom1911

I have knows several people that own PBs, and they are great dogs. Very protective of their families. And all the dogs I have met were big puppies.
My niece had a PB named TK short for TurdKnocker because he farted a lot as a pup.
TK was a big dog, but he was a very loving dog. The entire family, not just my nieces family was heart broken when TK was stolen by a dog fighting ring in the Jeff City Mo area.
We got him back but he was near dead.
She nursed him back to health, (they thought) but there were problems that the vet did not catch (problems/injuries) from being forced to fight. TK passed away less than 5 months after he was found. 
PBs are great dogs, as are most all dogs. They are as bad or good as they are raised to be. Much like children.


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## jfmartin25

As an avid dog lover I find it hard to say that I don't_ like_ pitbulls, but from what I have witnessed I just don't _trust_ them.


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## dpdtc

I agree with alot of the posts about it being on the owner. One of my best friends has a Pit Bull and it is a great dog. That dog knows who is the leader of the pack though. He trains with that dog several times a week. When I say train alot of it is done while they are out playing and getting excerisise. I can't imagine that dog hurting anyone or any other dog unless he was provoked to do so. I imagine he would fight to the death if someone was hurting my buddy.
I have never owned a PB but I have owned other dogs. The hardest to train I ever had was a black lab. He was a good dog but just hard to train. The sweetest dog I ever owned was a Golden Retriever. The smartest and most trainable 2 dogs I have owned have been German Shepards. In the event my family gets another dog I will be going for another one. 
I say if you are going to be a good owner and train with your dog and let him know who is the pack leader go get a Pit Bull if that is what you want. You probably won't be sorry.


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## falchunt

*common misconception*



omegajb said:


> The thing with pit bulls if they snap that jaw can lock on a kids arm and you would have to kill it to get them loose.


I agree with the rest of your post omega, but there is no such thing as a locking jaw. The breed is just more stubborn, or has more drive, however you would like to word it. The locking jaw has been a myth for some time now, and is in no way real.


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## weightlifter01

*pitbulls*

i own 2 full blooded pits as well as a half rott half pitt and a full blooded 110-120 lb rott
pitts are very affectionate and very active dogs .its all about socializing them around people.


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## algore is a fatwoman

A Guy I know had a pit bull mix. It was completely unruly and frankly, stupid. It bit his kid. He got sick of it so took it out into the country and let it go. He said if it wanted to act like a wild animal it could go live like a wild animal.


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## Jiu-jitsu fighter

OK for some reason these discussions irk the crap out of me. Look at it like this. A number of years ago Dobies were consider the bad breed and aggressive. The one my parents had hen I was little would let me pull it's tail roll around on it. My mom had my dressed on sunday and I wanted to go swimming in my kiddie pool. After she told me several times no I bolted out the door towards the pool. She picked me up went to spank me and the Dobie grabbed her by the wrist. Didnt draw blood and wouldnt let her spank me. She would get between me and the garbage man when he would come. Someone ended up taking her. My aunt who lived down a few yards away gae a description of the car but nothing was done after.

Forward a couple of years later. Dobie was considered a good breed and Rotties were the bad ones. Now Rotties arent bad and pits are the bad ones. I have seen aggressive shit-zus, (since I cant spell it the taco bell dogs), labs, etc. They are known to be full of energy and be agressive. The majority has to do with the owner. As with any dog it is best to get them when they are a pup and raise them how you want them to be.

Working as a garbage man I got chased by several dogs. There was a gorgeous pitbull that was by the fence. I would walk up to get he trash can and he would do the whole submit to authority by laying down. His cropped tail just a wagging. So not being scared of dogs I reached over the fence. He jumped up and licked the crap out of me. Needless to say every Tuesday morning abou 7:30 I would pet her and she would get a dog treat. I hate the fact they moved. 

My lanlords husband has a pit that is nice as can be. I went to a guy who raises them. Only one was semi agressive. The rest even the older ones just wanted attention. Pitbulls are the one of the few breeds that has never tried to come after me. The worst being just mutts. Like lab and collie mixes stuff like that.


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## Jiu-jitsu fighter

algore is a fatwoman said:


> A Guy I know had a pit bull mix. It was completely unruly and frankly, stupid. It bit his kid. He got sick of it so took it out into the country and let it go. He said if it wanted to act like a wild animal it could go live like a wild animal.


Stupid people like this shouldnt own animals to begin with. You can always find someone who can take care of it and give it the attention and discipline they need.


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## Jiu-jitsu fighter

algore is a fatwoman said:


> A Guy I know had a pit bull mix. It was completely unruly and frankly, stupid. It bit his kid. He got sick of it so took it out into the country and let it go. He said if it wanted to act like a wild animal it could go live like a wild animal.


Stupid people like this shouldnt own animals to begin with. You can always find someone who can take care of it and give it the attention and discipline they need. Someone who just lets a animal who has been domesticated out in the wild fend for himself. Should be dropped off in the middle of a ton of woods and made for them to defend for himself with his barehands.


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## falchunt

*Stupid is as stupid does*



algore is a fatwoman said:


> A Guy I know had a pit bull mix. It was completely unruly and frankly, stupid. It bit his kid. He got sick of it so took it out into the country and let it go. He said if it wanted to act like a wild animal it could go live like a wild animal.


Your friend sounds like the exact kind of moron who gives this breed a bad name. People like him should not be allowed to own a dog, let alone have kids.:smt076


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## BearValley

falchunt said:


> Your friend sounds like the exact kind of moron who gives this breed a bad name. People like him should not be allowed to own a dog, let alone have kids.:smt076


I have to agree with you. On the other hand, attacks like what happened today (see story below) should NOT be happening for any reason whatsoever, EVER.

Dog pack escapes yard, mauls Fontana kids

FONTANA, Calif. (KABC) --_ A pack of dogs escaped from a fenced yard in Fontana Monday and mauled three kids. One was released from the hospital, another needed 327 staples and one is still hospitalized in critical condition.

Police said five dogs got out of their owner's yard and attacked the siblings, ages 5, 6 and 7, on Tokay Avenue, just south of Arrow Boulevard. The mother of the victims was taking her children out for a walk to the park when the dogs, a mastiff, a purebred pitbull and three other mixed dogs, attacked.

Authorities said the injuries to 5-year-old Destiny Colon were the worst. The mastiff punctured her lung, broke her rib cage and ripped various muscle tissue. As of Tuesday evening, she was still at Loma Linda University Childrens Hospital on ventilator support.

Fontana police said someone at the hospital called after the attack to ask if they had recovered any muscle tissue because if they had, they might be able to reattach it.

"You couldn't ask for too much more of a tragic situation here. You're on your way to a park to take your kids for a reward after school, and you're attacked by a pack of dogs," said Sgt. Jeff Decker of Fontana police.

"I felt helpless. I couldn't help her, but I had five other kids I was trying to help," said Josie Arellano, the mother of the attacked children.

"They knocked us to the ground, and when I turned around, they had Destiny and they were brutally attacking her, biting on her. There were two dogs that were trying to demolish her right there," described Arellano.

"I felt like they were going to eat her alive right there, and I was screaming and some kid happened to hear me, and he came out of nowhere and he started throwing rocks at the dogs. My son came and started throwing rocks, but they wouldn't let her go," Arellano described through tears.

One officer said he was forced to shoot and kill a pit bull because it was so aggressive.

The other dogs of mixed breeds were removed by Animal Control.

"Probably the scariest I've seen in the 12 years I've been doing this," described Jamie Simmons of San Bernardino Animal Control.

"Anytime you have a pack mentality of dogs, it creates a dangerous situation, and I'm relieved they're here and not at large," said Simmons.

"The mother informed us that one of the dogs had actually pulled a child from her arms, and tossed the child around like a rag doll," said Sgt. Jeff Decker of San Bernardino Animal Control.

Residents are furious that something like this had to happen in the first place.

One resident, who has been in the neighborhood for 30 years, says she knows the aggressiveness of these animals well.

"They would come after horses, after people. Everybody was in danger. I'm not surprised," she said. "When people have dogs that are dangerous and they can get out of the yard, what can you expect? Those people need to be stopped."

The dogs live on another street and were being held by Animal Control. They are scheduled to be put down.

At the very least, the dogs' owner will be getting a citation. More serious criminal charges could be pending against the owner if it's determined that he did not do enough to secure the dogs.
(Copyright ©2010 KABC-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)_

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=7252812


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## Jiu-jitsu fighter

Yes but see it wasnt just the pitbull, so you cant blame that on the breed. Couple of things that arent mentioned. How they were raised and treated, and did the kids ever go outside and play and throw stuff or poke the dogs or do anything to provoke them.

My dog has never bit anyone. Neighbors say the little girl walked up to the fence and he tried to bite her. I was sitting outside for fresh air the other night and one of her sisters and her sister's friends was outside. I heard him bark and knew why he was barking. I heard I will shut him up and he wimpered. I was like what the hell then one was like ssshhhhh he cant find us. So I grabbed my flashlight and shined it on them they ran in.

I walked over to talk to my neighbor who basically told me to prove it, keep my dog inside instead of our fenced in property and get off his. I lost my cool and told him I would throw rocks at his kids next time they were outside late and yelling and screaming. Then he ran off at the mouth threatening to shoot me and blah blah blah.

Sad story but we dont know everything and you cant blame one breed. Not to sound too racist. But I can tell you all the dog attack storie I read on line 95% of the time envolve Mexican or someone os hispanic descedant.


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## falchunt

OK we are getting way off point, as usual. The only thing one can take from the story Bear listed, is that a dog is an animal that has to be respected, and must have responsible owners. A horribly tragic story, but this story has nothing to do with Pit Bulls as a breed, or their tendancies. If anything, you could say that mixed dogs cannot be trusted because there were three of them in this story that attacked the kids. Even this would be a foolish statement. It seems fairly obvious to me that the owners in this story are at fault. It sounds like they had too many dogs in the first place, and they weren't paying any attention to ANY of them. Once again, it comes down to the environment that the animals were in.


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## austin88

I voted for the second one. I feel like it's all about how you bring the dog up. I have a few freinds that have more than one Pitt and there the nicest coolest dogs ever. But if your mean and whoop on it of course there going to be mean and may attack with no warning


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## BowhuntnHoosier

I have only been personally around about 5 Pits. And they were all more aggressive than other breeds I have been around.


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## tc15

57% of all human fatalities from dog bites over the last five years were attributed to pitbulls.49% over the last 30 years.It looks like this breed has given its self a bad name.I think this is a more aggressive breed just like my chow,but with proper training and socialization this aggressive nature can be overcome.You can't just throw this breed out in the backyard or on a chain and ignore it except for feeding because nothing good will come of it.It takes work and training to get a good dog.


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## VasSigmeister

I want one, I think the only reason they tend to be aggressive is the owners and training they get... If they are bread to be aggressive they will be


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## falchunt

*They do as they are told*



tc15 said:


> 57% of all human fatalities from dog bites over the last five years were attributed to pitbulls.49% over the last 30 years.It looks like this breed has given its self a bad name.I think this is a more aggressive breed just like my chow,but with proper training and socialization this aggressive nature can be overcome.You can't just throw this breed out in the backyard or on a chain and ignore it except for feeding because nothing good will come of it.It takes work and training to get a good dog.


Something to consider tc15,

Let's say for a moment that German shepherds were the "fighting dog" of choice by your local *******. Lets also assume that he has been training 30 German Shepherds to fight for 6 years. Many other locals follow suit, because this gentleman fighting GS has been very successful. Next thing you know, there are 40 people bringing GS to the dog fights, and soon after many people are purchasing champion fighters to protect their home, because they scare people. I would say the odds are pretty high that a dog with a history of training in violence, in a new environment, will eventually cause problems.

Now knowing what you already know about German Shepherds, would this situation make the breed_* self responsible*_ for their bad name?

Let me help you with that, the answer is no.

Pit Bulls, as a breed, are less "aggressive" or have a better temperament than most other breeds on the planet. Cocker Spaniels, Chihuahuas, Labs, sheepdogs, Rottweilers, Toy Poodles, Dachshunds, Giant Schnauzers, and Miniature Pinschers are all considered to be more _naturally_ aggressive than Pits.

The media always seems to target a certain breed to push negative stereotypes and a poor image onto. For a long time it was the Doberman who was the "vicious beast" of the dog world, now it is the Pit Bull. I believe that some day the negative attention will pass, and people will see this breed for what it is. A fun, athletic, proud breed who are loyal to their owners.
:smt1099


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## Jim522

You could torment and beat the hell out of a poodle until it got the point of being mean and dangerous. 
I think it's ignorant for people to say pitbulls are dangerous. Please do not be offended if you suffer from pitbullaphobia. Cars are dangerous...if you intentionally try to run somebody over. Same way pitbulls are dangerous...if you train them to attack people. I've trained my black labs to attack somebodythat isn't supposed to be on my property. But because the pitbull can do more damage
My last roomate had a pitbull. Nicest dog in the world. You could put your face in her feed bowl while she was eating, she would probably back up until you were done eating. An extremely rare, well mannered, nice pitbull? Nope, just one that was raised right. I would trust my kids to pull on her ears and yank on her tail, and the thought would never cross my mind that she would hurt them.
It's all about publicity. One cop gets attacked by a pitbull that hits channel 6 news with a dumbass for an owner and they get a bad rap. Sure they're capable of ripping your arm off, but only if you teach them to use that capability. I honestly feel bad the dog because it's probably gonna get put to sleep, when it's the owner that needs a shot of go-to-sleep-for-good. 
I have the ability to shoot anything I want. If I choose to go out and shoot everything I see does that make it the guns fault..or mine?
Bottom line, pitbulls are like guns. In the wrong hands, they could hurt or kill somebody. But it wouldn't be the guns fault, nor the dog. It's the owner that doesn't appreciate or respect what it is capable of.


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## fidalgoman

IMHO it is a two part problem. Pits were bred as tenacious fighting dogs. Too many people train (abuse) them to be dangerous animals. How many hoody types do you see with violent pits. It has become a drugs-R-us icon.

You should take the Pitbull test LINK and you might be surprised at what you thought was a pitbull. Just click on the pictures after you guess of course.


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## Jiu-jitsu fighter

Guessed the picture on the first try though a couple about threw me off. But then again when I was looking on getting a dog I did alot of research. So alot of those breeds I had seen before. 

But thank you for posting that. At work they would always bash pitbulls and on the news we would hear about "pitbull" attacks. And they would make remarks. I always said uneducated people wouldnt know a bulldog from a pitbull. And most of the "pitbulls" that I have seen on attacks are only part pitbull. But mainly mutts.

My landlord she has a pitbull. I had to help my wife take care of it and 3 other dogs while they went away. She would growl at me but not my wife. She would attack. With the landlord Gracie (the pitbull) sat beside me and when I sat on the couch she jumped on the couch beside me and laid down putting her head in my lap and wouldnt move. And my wife or the other dogs couldnt come near me. Very sweet dog.


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## Frank45

Dogs become what their owners make them, irresponcible owners make bad dogs. I've known a few pit and they were fine family pets. I prefer my Rotties, they take bigger bites.


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## BearValley

Jiu-jitsu fighter said:


> ...And my wife or the other dogs couldnt come near me. Very sweet dog.


I'm not quite sure how those two statements fit together. I'm guessing that you don't have children?

Any animal that has aggression issues that will not allow others to come near you is completely unacceptable, period, end of discussion. That is a very dangerous situation.


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## bps3040

My daughter has 2 pits....raised them from puppies. Pretty sweet dogs, but even at 12 weeks old, would sit back and be stand offish. They are now going on 2.5 yrs. They are very aggressive(kill or try to) any dog that they can get to. Does not matter what the other dog does...they attack(pack mentality????) do not know.

I go to their house every week. Dogs have always loved me, run right up and say hi. That last few months....more stand offish. One comes up after a min. or two of talking to her...always wagging a tail. The other one waits and sees..after a few min. she comes up, very carefully. Why? have no idea. I bring them treats and have seen them weekly since pups.

I work on their pool. I had my service guy and girl, he was training her, go do a service call there. While my daughter's boyfriend was there....no problem. He leaves after 45 min. As soon as he leaves, dog gets very aggressive. They had to hold equipment between them and the dog to make it back to the truck.... Boyfriend thinks it is funny. I do not.

Neighbor has 2 Pits.....keep chewing,digging out. My wife and I arrive home from bird store. My wife is carrying her bird up our driveway when Pit decides to attack my wife. My chocolate lab saves her and bird. Protects and fights until I can get to them. Kick crap out of dog....finally decides to give it up. Dog owner did not grab it and sat there and watched attack like no big deal.. Finally grabbed it when I told her I was fixing to kill their dog if he charged us again... week later.....digs in to my yard and goes after my dogs when I let them out. Not a good idea......does make it back to his yard. Does it twice more in the next week. Leaves when he sees me now.

I come home for lunch, pit is messing with a lady walking her baby. Lady is freaking, dog acting real aggressive. I am convinced dog would have attacked them if I would not have showed up. I go after dog and runs back home. Lady at 1st thought it was mine...I told her where it lives... she called police. Nothing happens. ( The whole time dog owner keeps telling us how sweet he is)

They decide to get another puppy!!! What a brilliant idea!!!. I come home for lunch, dogs attack my dogs, i go nuts.... the Pit owner sees me chasing her dog around trying to kill it. (in my backyard) Next day she decides to move out of neighbors house. Thank God.

I am walking my dog, Pit runs up and attacks us. My dog grabs it by the throat and hangs on. Pit takes off...turns right around and attack again. Dog grabs it again....I kick crap out of it. Pit hobbles about 20 turns around and charges again. My dog and it go crazy at it. My dog ended up breaking one of his fangs off in the Pitbulls face. It only quit because I was kicking the crap out of it. It was hurting when it left. Animal control came and put it down. I WOULD have shot that dog. I did not have my CHL at the time.

I do not trust them. I tried to be open minded, but my daughters dogs are convincing me the are just aggressive.


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## Tuefelhunden

Bummer bps. Definately not confidence inspiring. I'm seeing a lot of back and forth on this topic which I admited several pages back that I'm anything but an expert on this subject. Starting to think though, based on the longevity of this thread and how so many people either own, owned or personally know pit bulls here, that the sheer numbers that are out there may have something to do with it all. If I recall correctly I have personally known 6 Golden Retrievers and I own 2 of those 6. I can't think of any other breed I can say that about and to my knowledge have never personally known a Pit bull. One thing I've taken away from this discussion is they sure must be prolific little suckers for so many people to be so familiar with them.


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## Sam02S2K

With all things even. A pitbull is more prone to be aggressive than other dogs.


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## VasSigmeister

Well when the pitbull matures, usually around the age of 3 years, that is when any aggressive tendencies it may have come out... Sounds to me like the dogs you're talking about are from a litter that was born from a dog that was trained to fight, or be aggressive, I may be wrong, but that is what it sound like to me...


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## falchunt

:roll:

"With all things even. A pitbull is more prone to be aggressive than other dogs."

Sam02S2K - The Pit Bull has been proven to be a less aggressive dog by nature than most "common" dogs. This has been addressed earlier in the thread. 

Vagsigmeister -

Actually you are pretty close with that. It is much more likely for a dog to be aggressive when its bloodline has been used for fighting or violence. Call it genetic learning, instinct, whatever you prefer. However, these activities were taught to the breed by humans, and therefore the aggression is an un-natural trait of the breed. If you have a bloodline that has never significantly been introduced to violence or fighting, they will tend to be far less aggressive.


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## Sam02S2K

falchunt said:


> :roll:
> 
> "With all things even. A pitbull is more prone to be aggressive than other dogs."
> 
> Sam02S2K - The Pit Bull has been proven to be a less aggressive dog by nature than most "common" dogs. This has been addressed earlier in the thread.
> 
> Vagsigmeister -
> 
> Actually you are pretty close with that. It is much more likely for a dog to be aggressive when its bloodline has been used for fighting or violence. Call it genetic learning, instinct, whatever you prefer. However, these activities were taught to the breed by humans, and therefore the aggression is an un-natural trait of the breed. If you have a bloodline that has never significantly been introduced to violence or fighting, they will tend to be far less aggressive.


Proven by whom? How do you know the statistics that you put up weren't from pitbull owners?


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## Rogelk

We own an Australian Shepherd. A breed that has not yet been destroyed by the AKC. These dogs instincts are incredibly devoloped for herding. Even at 3 mos. they naturally try to herd anything and everything....Pit Bulls have been bred for eons to fight and to kill....think about that.


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## falchunt

*Look it up...*



Sam02S2K said:


> Proven by whom?


Whom? Well...lets see:

1. The ATTS (American Temperament Test Society)
2. The AKC (American Kennel Club)
3. The APDT (The Association of Pet Dog Trainers)
4. The ADBA (American Dog Breeders Association)
5. The ADOA (American Dog Owners Association)
6. The CKC (Continental Kennel Club)
7. The NKC (National Kennel Club)

I think you should be able to get the picture.....



Sam02S2K said:


> How do you know the statistics that you put up weren't from pitbull owners?


Well Sam, that's easy. I know because I don't just post comments about topics that I don't know anything about. I have researched it a great deal. If _you_ had, then you wouldn't have typed the previous question. It only takes a quick google search to find that temperament tests have been done for years and Pit Bulls are not among the breeds at the top of that list.


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## Sam02S2K

falchunt said:


> Whom? Well...lets see:
> 
> 1. The ATTS (American Temperament Test Society)
> 2. The AKC (American Kennel Club)
> 3. The APDT (The Association of Pet Dog Trainers)
> 4. The ADBA (American Dog Breeders Association)
> 5. The ADOA (American Dog Owners Association)
> 6. The CKC (Continental Kennel Club)
> 7. The NKC (National Kennel Club)
> 
> I think you should be able to get the picture.....
> 
> Well Sam, that's easy. I know because I don't just post comments about topics that I don't know anything about. I have researched it a great deal. If _you_ had, then you wouldn't have typed the previous question. It only takes a quick google search to find that temperament tests have been done for years and Pit Bulls are not among the breeds at the top of that list.


Every dog was bred for a purpose. I think everyone could agree on that.

Take a border collie for example. This specific dog was bred for the intention of herding sheep. Through generations of breeding if that dog senses sheep its going to instinctively go start herding sheep.

So what do you think Pitbulls were bred for? Kill rodents, small animals, go after cattle, and the biggest one dog fighting. So I'm not trying to take away the thousands of great dog owners like yourself that are responsible with their pitbulls. I agree there is the strong possibility every dog can or is different in some way. However, instinctively Pitbulls were bred for a reason and thats why they are considered highly aggressive along with rottweilers, dobermans, german shepards.


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## falchunt

Pit Bulls were not bred to be dog aggressive, or human aggressive. They were bred not to back down when an animal that weighs 20 times what they do is staring into its eyes, and to have the athleticism to move quickly and force the bull to submit and comply. This was generations ago, and many years of ignorant misguidance has given this breed a bad name. And yes, there are many pit bulls that I would not trust due to their individual history or aggressive nature. This is the same with any breed on earth. Every dog is capable of being violent at any time, and must be respected.

The discussion that we are having here is how they compare to other breeds. The fact is that when you throw out the cases in which the animal has been directly involved in fighting or abuse, Pit Bulls are more passive than many dogs that humans love and trust as a whole. 82% of Pit Bulls that went through the temperament test passed. In order to pass, the dog must be able to show very good judgement in a situation that is very stressful.

"The test simulates a casual walk through the park or neighborhood where everyday life situations are encountered. During this walk, the dog experiences visual, auditory and tactile stimuli. Neutral, friendly and threatening situations are encountered, calling into play the dog's ability to distinguish between non-threatening situations and those calling for watchful and protective reactions."
-The ATTS (American Temperament Test Society) website

One slip up and the dog will fail this test. They do not allow re-takes. There is enough evidence by this test alone to show that the breed is not _naturally agressive_.


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## Sam02S2K

falchunt said:


> Pit Bulls were not bred to be dog aggressive, or human aggressive. They were bred not to back down when an animal that weighs 20 times what they do is staring into its eyes, and to have the athleticism to move quickly and force the bull to submit and comply. This was generations ago, and many years of ignorant misguidance has given this breed a bad name. And yes, there are many pit bulls that I would not trust due to their individual history or aggressive nature. This is the same with any breed on earth. Every dog is capable of being violent at any time, and must be respected.


I never said anything about Pitbulls were bred for sheer aggressiveness. I only stated that they were bred for a specific purpose and that purpose made them more aggressive than any other breed. Do you think a dog not backing down isn't aggressive? You stated that, *"They were bred not to back down when an animal that weighs 20 times what they do is staring into its eyes, and to have the athleticism to move quickly and force the bull to submit and comply.This was generations ago, and many years of ignorant misguidance has given this breed a bad name."* You think generations of an animal being subjected to that doesn't have some form of effect on the animal today?



falchunt said:


> The discussion that we are having here is how they compare to other breeds. The fact is that when you throw out the cases in which the animal has been directly involved in fighting or abuse, Pit Bulls are more passive than many dogs that humans love and trust as a whole. 82% of Pit Bulls that went through the temperament test passed. In order to pass, the dog must be able to show very good judgement in a situation that is very stressful.


So how many Pitbulls do you know that have been in fighting/abuse situations and are actually passive? "*You state that Pit bulls are more passive than many dogs that humans love and trust as a whole." *Thats an entirely emotional statement with no facts to back up. Don't you think you're being a bit bais considering you were or are a pitbull owner? 82% of pitbulls went through the test. 82% of what? 82 percent of pitbulls in the world? I highly doubt that.



falchunt said:


> The test simulates a casual walk through the park or neighborhood where everyday life situations are encountered. During this walk, the dog experiences visual, auditory and tactile stimuli. Neutral, friendly and threatening situations are encountered, calling into play the dog's ability to distinguish between non-threatening situations and those calling for watchful and protective reactions."
> -The ATTS (American Temperament Test Society) website
> 
> One slip up and the dog will fail this test. They do not allow re-takes. There is enough evidence by this test alone to show that the breed is not _naturally agressive_.


You're giving me a test thats in a completey controlled environment. You can't possibly be able to put a dog through every possibly scenerio to see if hes aggressive or not. You don't know whats going through a dogs head. For all you know a child walking down the street isn't threatening to the pitbull but a child throwing a frisbee is and thats what makes the dog attack. You mean to tell me one test is all you need to convince you that this dog is in fact not "naturally aggressive?"

The facts are that the dog was bred for a specific purpose. Generations of breeding is what makes the dog the way it is today. The facts are the facts. Do I have anything against Pitbulls? No, and I'm sure they are great dogs with the owners on here. Will I ever own one? Probably not. I'm not sure I'm responsible enough to watch a Pitbull with its energetic temperment and take on the responsibility if it ever gets out. I've had numerous dogs however I think my next dog will be a more laid back one like an English Bulldog. haha


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## falchunt

*Slow down*

 Ok, I think you need to slow down and READ a little before you respond.



Sam02S2K said:


> 82% of pitbulls went through the test. 82% of what? 82 percent of pitbulls in the world? I highly doubt that.


If you re read what I wrote you will see that I stated OF the Pit Bulls THAT WERE tested, 82% passed. Just FYI, there were over 600 randomly chosen Pit Bulls for the test. The numbers tested for other breeds varied, but very few had as many as the APBT. What this shows is that the breed has good self control. Many breeds were close to the 70% area for passing.



Sam02S2K said:


> You state that Pit bulls are more passive than many dogs that humans love and trust as a whole." [/B]Thats an entirely emotional statement with no facts to back up. Don't you think you're being a bit bais considering you were or are a pitbull owner?


Actually it is quite opposite of what you are saying here. The *facts* are in the temperament test. If you look it up, you will likely be surprised that the most aggressive dogs out there are poodles, collies, etc. However, poodles and collies are widely accepted as "family pets" whereas Pit Bulls are portrayed as vicious dogs owned by drug dealers.

As far as being biased, yeah I could very easily be biased, and rightfully so. I have had 3 Pits total of my own, 2 of which I still have. There is no other dog or animal in the world right now that has more of a negative image than the pit bull. When was the last time that you saw an image of a Pit on TV wagging his tail and playing fetch with his owner? A majority of the negativity stems from the irresponsibility and immaturity of _humans_ and not wrongdoing of the breed.



Sam02S2K said:


> Generations of breeding is what makes the dog the way it is today.


Now here is where we can totally agree 
People have mistreated this dog for hundreds of years, abused the athleticism and power, and we point the finger at the dog??? Where does that make sense? It makes a big difference what bloodline of dog you have for what characteristics you will get. My point is that if the dog's older generations have not been abused or used for dog fighting you will have a loyal, athletic, fun loving, often goofy, kid friendly, incredible animal. Therefore, it is not NATURAL for the animal to be aggressive, but a learned trait.



Sam02S2K said:


> Will I ever own one? Probably not. I'm not sure I'm responsible enough to watch a Pitbull with its energetic temperment


I am glad that you are being honest with yourself, and I only wish that more people were. They really are a handful, they have more energy than I could possibly have and they need to be exercised a lot. sometimes that is difficult to do, with everyone's busy schedules. I am lucky enough to own and live on several acres of land out in the middle of nowhere, so my pups have free roam out here.


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## Rogelk

I really only have three rules in life:

1- Don't ever own a Self Defense Handgun that requires two hands to shoot.
2- Don't own a motorcycle heavier than I can lift.
3- Don't ever own any pets that I can't take in a fight.


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## PSYCHOFREAK3

I will admit I didn't read the entire thread but I read most of it and the responses of most people. To give you alittle background I have a year and a half old pitbull and a 6 month old chocolate lab oor yeah and a 5 and a half month old son. My pitbull is the best dog I have ever had, non confrontational, and even though as a parent I could nto do this with any animal but I would feel completely secure leaving my pitbull alone with my son for a couple minutes (the reason not to is because my son is an infant and you don't leave them alone period) however I have raised my dogs correctly, and in an attempt to copy the temperment tests, I, or my wife, or believe me a stranger to the household can grab her paws, ears, pull her tail, seperate her pads on her feet, cover her eyes, do pretty much anything you could imagine that would upset a dog and I stand by that 100%. So for those saying that pit bulls are inherently evil/violent/dangerous you have to ask yourself what situation the dog was brought up in. I know that has been stated and I have met unfriendly pit bulls however they were bred by druggies that beat the dog so what could you expect.


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## crash972

It's all how you raise your dog.There are some exceptions tho.


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## Gunners_Mate

I don't like how the poll questions are phrased, it gives a misleading ideal so I chose other. 

yes they ARE more dangerous than other breeds, in that a pitt bull that attacks you will cause significantly more damage than a chihuahua, a poodle, or a dobermen pincher. this isn't the dogs fault, the breed is simply capable of doing more damage. 

that being said akita's hunt bears and have a much large maw and bite force than any pitt bull I've seen and thus dog's more POTENTIALLY dangerous (ie damaging) than pitt bulls exist. 

however this is NO way shows that pitt bulls are inherently dangerous as the media would like to portray. I've known pitt bulls to be just as sweet as the most child friendly golden. it's all in the upbringing, period. 

it's unfortunate my viewing of them has been skewed as of late, I now see them as being relatively small dogs, whereas growing up I always thought of them and being pretty big. damned bulky akita's got me all out of calibration.


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## 8Eric6

I love my pitbull!!!!! It's all about how YOU raise them. Too many people raise them as inmates rather than members of the family, it's a dog not a status symbol. Any dog can be mean it rests in the hands of the owner. You treat any animal like crap it's gonna be aggresive. Media as it does with everything just blows this way out of porportion.


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## Frank45

8Eric6 said:


> I love my pitbull!!!!! It's all about how YOU raise them. Too many people raise them as inmates rather than members of the family, it's a dog not a status symbol. Any dog can be mean it rests in the hands of the owner. You treat any animal like crap it's gonna be aggresive. Media as it does with everything just blows this way out of porportion.


+1 I've owned guard/family dogs for the better part of 40 years, including Pits, Dobies and Rotties. They all were exceptional family members. Some were a little head strong but with proper, constant training they were brought into the fold. They are all smart, they can and will learn. It is the owners commiment or lack of that makes the differance. True, adopted dogs can be extremely difficult but they too can be transformed. I have had both, raised as pups and adopted. Right now I have a small 100lb.abused Rottie and an adopted pit/mix street dog that are some of the best I've had. Both are little babies to family members, and still are exceptional watch dogs. Nothing gets past the little female's ears. One bark and the big guy is on alert. I appoligize for rambling but it just gets to me when people talk down breeds of dogs, because they got barked at or charged at when they got too close to someone's fence.There is no bad breeds, only idiot owners.


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## Cope's Distributing

Like I have said before. I own a pitbull who is now 1 yr old I also own a Rott who is 4 yrs old. They are the 2 best dogs I have ever had in my life. I have a 5yr old on and a 3 yr old son who climb all over them ride them pull them. My 3 yr old son was attacked by a dog back in April and has had several surgeries. The dog got his face and both eyes. They thought my son would lose his vision. This was a family pet I was told over and over she will never hurt a fly! What breed was she you will ask. She was a english bulldog. She ripped into my sons face. No one has ever heard of a dog that size being small.. I was even more upset when a different doctor would come into the hospital room and say so he was attacked by a PITBULL..... I got to the point where I would say look I own a pitbull and no this was not done by one. 

it is not just pitbulls that are mean it is any and every dog. that cute little weenie dog could tear into you just as fast as a lab could. So stop judgeing a dog cause of its breed!


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## Frank45

Cope's Distributing said:


> Like I have said before. I own a pitbull who is now 1 yr old I also own a Rott who is 4 yrs old. They are the 2 best dogs I have ever had in my life. I have a 5yr old on and a 3 yr old son who climb all over them ride them pull them. My 3 yr old son was attacked by a dog back in April and has had several surgeries. The dog got his face and both eyes. They thought my son would lose his vision. This was a family pet I was told over and over she will never hurt a fly! What breed was she you will ask. She was a english bulldog. She ripped into my sons face. No one has ever heard of a dog that size being small.. I was even more upset when a different doctor would come into the hospital room and say so he was attacked by a PITBULL..... I got to the point where I would say look I own a pitbull and no this was not done by one.
> 
> it is not just pitbulls that are mean it is any and every dog. that cute little weenie dog could tear into you just as fast as a lab could. So stop judgeing a dog cause of its breed!


Thank you and I am hoping that you son recovers fully and does not have any lasting effect of fear for dogs in general. That would be a damn shame, again I'll state any dog will attack if it is not trained right. it is the owner's total commitment to training ANY dog.


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## sig225

Wherever they go ..... trouble soon follows. 

Do you ever see that breed as a Leader Dog ?

Or a Police Dog ?

We all make choices.


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## Frank45

sig225 said:


> Wherever they go ..... trouble soon follows.
> 
> Do you ever see that breed as a Leader Dog ?
> 
> Or a Police Dog ?
> 
> We all make choices.


What breed are you refering to?


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## 8Eric6

sig225 said:


> Wherever they go ..... trouble soon follows.
> 
> Do you ever see that breed as a Leader Dog ?
> 
> Or a Police Dog ?
> 
> We all make choices.


it appears your mind is already made up no reason to speak on your Ignorance.


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## sig225

No .... just common sense. My post are not intended to start any type of argument. Remember, we all vary in our ideas and the choices we make. Nothing against the Pitbull breed. They are just not for everyone. I just don't beleive in them as a family "pet" where there are children involved. I respect your opinion, and that is your right.
Also .... this is a handgun forum, so I try not to get personal on topics other than firearms. We're all here for a reason ... :smt023

:duel:


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## 8Eric6

sig225 said:


> No .... just common sense. My post are not intended to start any type of argument. Remember, we all vary in our ideas and the choices we make. Nothing against the Pitbull breed. They are just not for everyone. I just don't beleive in them as a family "pet" where there are children involved. I respect your opinion, and that is your right.
> Also .... this is a handgun forum, so I try not to get personal on topics other than firearms. We're all here for a reason ... :smt023
> 
> :duel:


I guess I was kinda being a weiner. I just love my dog like family as I'm sure you do with your pets, so I get defensive. I guess we'll just agree to disagree, But I see we agree on sigs being amazing!!!!:smt082


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## sig225

Hey ... no sweat ... that's why we are here, to discuss, learn \"doggy: .. and compare notes ... :watching:


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## MikePapa1

I voted other. I had two pi tbull females, both spaded. Apart they are both fabulous dogs, great with people. They lived happily together for two years and then suddenly became aggressive toward one another. Their fights were terrifying and expensive in vet bills. After the third fight, we had to get rid of one pf them because they would not quit fighting until exhausted and injured. I love pit bulls, but they are dangerous when they move into the "red zone" and the transition is so rapid that it makes them unpredictable.

I would not have one with small children or other animals, but I still love them.


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## falchunt

*thoughts*

I started this thread a long time ago to see what everyone's "opinions" were on the breed and I have to say I am overall impressed with the response, and somewhat surprised at the poll numbers. The breed obviously gets a bad rap from the media. It is unfortunate that due to their skills and abilities they often times attract the type of person that is not responsible enough to raise them the right way.

I know that there are still plenty of people that will say that pits are all evil and cant be trusted. That is to be expected...I hope that there was someone who read this thread or left a few comments that might have learned something and have a better understanding about the breed. If not, then it was good conversation to say the least :mrgreen:


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## snowman46919

I voted that they are just another dog. My 11 week old pitbull made his first step to becoming a great dog last night and put himself between coyotes and my family. Not only did no one see the coyotes but because of his early warning I was able to unload birdshot and load some more formidable shells in my mossberg grab the mag lite and watch the varmints follow the fence line and get the hell out of dodge while my moms rott and terrier stood there dumb founded.


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## Swamp

I voted that they are more dangerous which is the only choice like that. I believe Pit Bulls are far more capable of being dangerous dogs than most other breeds; for example Chows can also be vicious dogs. The most important factor though is training and how the dog is handled/treated. I live in a big city and watch people walking Pit Bulls that are literally dragging them down the street giving the impression the dog is completely untrained and probably quite vicious. I would say that people in big cities tend to buy them as weapons and even often train them to be aggressive and they are a great bread to get if that's your intention. On the other hand, Pit Bulls can, with proper training be as lovable and well behaved as a Golden Retriever, they're just more likely to be the weapon of someone who wants the breed for protection. Lets face it, if a dog owner whats a loving dog, you cant beat a Golden Retriever with no special training. So you have to ask yourself, if someone buys a Pit Bull and doesn't intend to PROPERLY train it, why are they buying it?

Frankly after seeing repeated carnage from Pit Bulls, I believe you should be required to buy at least a million dollar umbrella insurance policy to cover the damage such dogs cause in the hands of irresponsible people, or some sort of mandatory training and followup. Sounds mean but when you see a little girls face ripped off and there's no money to make it right because it's a typical lower income city resident's daughter and dog owner who acted irresponsibly??? Tell that little girl who now looks like a freak what loving dogs Pit Bulls are and see if she believes you. I watch court TV programs all day long and you can count on multiple Pit Bull carnage hearings daily; that's no accident or coincidence. It's a numbers fact, you can cry unfair, it's only a dog or any other politically correct response you want but a Pit Bull in the wrong hands is dangerous, the numbers say so indisputably. Sometimes you need to face reality.

I've considered getting a Pit Bull, trained right of course because I live in the city; they're dang good watch dogs but I have a rental on my property and cant take the risk even with proper training; you never know.


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## bayhawk2

Pit bulls differ from all others due to their jaw strength.Bites measured by
P.S.I...These dogs are chosen fighters because of it.Not that they are more
aggressive,but because they do more damage with a single bite,than
most others do with several.


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## Swamp

So then you're saying it's just a coincidence that Pit Bulls are the subject of consistent news reports and law suits about Pit Bull attacks and the death and carnage they do while going nuts on people and other dogs and no other breed but a close second Rottweilers? Is it just their strong bite that causes them to grab the neck of their prey and shake them till their death similar to a alligator's death strategy?

Buy the way I had a client and friend whose Rottweiler was so playful and gentle that it completely changed my mind about vicious dogs till I got the call that out of nowhere, the dog, in one bite, almost took her eye out and after several reconstructive surgeries still looks a mess. This is the danger if you're not the Dog Whisperer, you NEVER know when the switch will be pulled by something you'd never expect it to and it's all over but the multiple surgeries trying to put you back together.

When they take our guns, you probably wont be able to afford to or even find one for sale. I know I'm not interested in a "pet" that needs constant psychological nurturing to keep it from becoming a monster.


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## snowman46919

Swamp said:


> So then you're saying it's just a coincidence that Pit Bulls are the subject of consistent news reports and law suits about Pit Bull attacks and the death and carnage they do while going nuts on people and other dogs and no other breed but a close second Rottweilers? Is it just their strong bite that causes them to grab the neck of their prey and shake them till their death similar to a alligator's death strategy?
> 
> Buy the way I had a client and friend whose Rottweiler was so playful and gentle that it completely changed my mind about vicious dogs till I got the call that out of nowhere, the dog, in one bite, almost took her eye out and after several reconstructive surgeries still looks a mess. This is the danger if you're not the Dog Whisperer, you NEVER know when the switch will be pulled by something you'd never expect it to and it's all over but the multiple surgeries trying to put you back together.
> 
> When they take our guns, you probably wont be able to afford to or even find one for sale. I know I'm not interested in a "pet" that needs constant psychological nurturing to keep it from becoming a monster.


Then quite frankly I don't think you need a dog at all. All dogs need constant nurturing because of the pack mentality that they all have. A lone dog just like a lone wolf is one of the worst animals you can come across. Even your beloved golden retriever if not nurtured or cared for can turn into a vicious unprovoked attacker. I had a retriever try to take my arm off just this weekend and had he not been chained up you would have seen me in the news for shooting a dog at least 5-6 times or until it stopped twitching. My dog nipped at a stranger this weekend and even though it wasn't all his fault I thought long and hard about getting rid of him. The point of all this is any dog can do this I have been harassed by everything from a chow to a min pin to a cocker. All dogs have the capability after all they are an animal and can never be completely tamed.

On a second note you admitted that you watch court tv shows all day. So there is absolutely no chance that your views can be skewed in no way whatsoever? Please say they are not so I can :anim_lol: Do you honestly think that the news or some lawyer claiming to be a judge on TV is going to do some big spiel about the neighbors labracrapdoodle attacking a neighbor kid? Hell no because there will be almost no ratings to that show and all the elitists that pay several thousands of dollars for dogs like that will sue their pants right off of them. If this weren't a handgun forum I would almost expect you to have an anti gun stance as well.

Education and training are the first and foremost things that keep people alive and well on this tiny little blue and green dot. Both of my kids have gotten in serious trouble for getting in my PIT BULLS face but you don't see them in the ER for being savagely attacked. Have they been nipped at or scratched sure, but in a playful manner just like any other dog would that is simply how they play. An intelligent animal will always figure things out and figure out how to manipulate you unless you show dominance and that you are the pack leader from the get go. My dog will listen to me on most occasions but he is still a pup. But if he is hungry he brings me his food bowl if he is thirsty he brings me his water bowl. Both are almost completely identical yet he can differentiate between the two even when empty. He knows that when he comes in for the night he goes to the kennel because he still chews on things if your not there to watch him, soon I bet I won't even have to close the door on it just because he learns so quickly just like any other dog.


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## Swamp

I partially agree with you; all but expert training and nurturing are paramount to owning a dog bread to be capable of being extremely vicious which you can watch on city streets almost daily. You seem to think that the issue is that there is a conspiracy against the loving sweet gently Pit Bull and like blacks, only the bad news is broadcast; not true in either case case, blacks commit more crime per capita and Pit Bulls destroy more lives than any other breed, they are bread to be that way. Use the conspiracy theory all you want, the facts are in the actual numbers.

Ask yourself this: when you go to buy a dog and at each end of the personality scope there is a Pit Bull that can eat your child for lunch and a Golden Retriever that wouldn't injure a rodent; why do people pick Pit Bulls and who are they and where do they typically live? Enough with the political correctness requiring blinders so the obvious is impossible to see.

And buy the way dogs are great companions and a balanced personality dog packs up well with the owner and poses no danger to others with minimal training.


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## snowman46919

Swamp said:


> Ask yourself this: when you go to buy a dog and at each end of the personality scope there is a Pit Bull that can eat your child for lunch and a Golden Retriever that wouldn't injure a rodent; why do people pick Pit Bulls and who are they and where do they typically live? Enough with the political correctness requiring blinders so the obvious is impossible to see


Did you miss or just blatantly ignore that a golden retriever tried to take my arm off this weekend? I myself and most people I know that own pit bulls live out in the boon docks.



Swamp said:


> the facts are in the actual numbers.


 Yes you should go back and look at the facts and numbers listed in plain black and white earlier in this thread that prove you wrong.



Swamp said:


> why do people pick Pit Bulls and who are they and where do they typically live?


I pick a Pit Bull because of its pure undying loyalty to those that nurture and care for them, I am a good all american man born and bred and raised on a farm not in some suburb as "your numbers" seem to portray. I also chose a Pit Bull because no matter the obstacle a pit bull when raised properly and in a good environment will protect you with it's life and never have a second thought about it. Pit bulls are one owner dogs period. Once they have imprinted on a particular family or pack that is their pack for life no matter what because of it's undying loyalty. This is true with a lot of large breed dogs and why you see so many behavior issues with second and third owner dogs.

As far as your bigotry I will ignore that because this thread is too good to be locked.


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## Swamp

...and you completely ignored my statement that if raised properly, almost with expert skills, they can be a good pet. As far as any claim of fact in a gun forum thread I dismiss that as someones opinion and as you prove, a Pit Bull owners opinion is perverted to the utmost ridiculousness especially when they claim Golden Retrievers are vicious animals and Pit Bulls aren't.

I'm guessing you're a liberal and void of factual information and reject all presented to you. So I'll end my participation in this thread as it cant go anywhere containing reality.

Ta, ta....


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## snowman46919

Swamp said:


> ...and you completely ignored my statement that if raised properly, almost with expert skills, they can be a good pet. As far as any claim of fact in a gun forum thread I dismiss that as someones opinion and as you prove, a Pit Bull owners opinion is perverted to the utmost ridiculousness especially when they claim Golden Retrievers are vicious animals and Pit Bulls aren't.
> 
> I'm guessing you're a liberal and void of factual information and reject all presented to you. So I'll end my participation in this thread as it cant go anywhere containing reality.
> 
> Ta, ta....


My claim was simply that any dog can be vicious and that golden retrievers have the ability to be just as vicious as any other dog. The facts that you call opinions from early in the thread were direct from scientific research but if you prefer to ignore that is fine. At any rate the simple fact I was trying to get across is dogs like people are not predisposed to anything it is the environment and education that they grow up with. As to your liberal statement my guess is your looking in the mirror as like I stated above you ignore scientific research as fact, maybe because you did not care to read the entire thread and didn't realize that it was there or you are blatantly ignoring the ATTS tests showing that:


American Temperament Testing Society said:


> AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER	772	664	108	86.0%


first number being amount tested, second amount passed, third amount failed, and percentage of passed. Just food for thought by the way:


American Temperament Testing Society said:


> GOLDEN RETRIEVER	746	631	115	84.6%


and so that my post is not taking up an entire page here is the link to the test


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## Swamp

I'm not even reading your post but you know what's the scariest thing abut this thread and what makes Pit Bulls so very dangerous?? The denial attitude of Pit Bull owners demonstrated here..and you know whats funny (pathetic)? what's being said here in defense of Pit Bulls is just about word for word what every defendant says in court. "Not y baby, he's not vicious" and the Judge looks at them as though they lost half their brains to be in such deep denial.

I'm unsubscribing so don't waste your breath.


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## bayhawk2

I blame the owner more than the breed.Dog owners
should always expect the unexpected.Before that 2 year old gets too close.
Before the mailman comes into the yard.Dogs do have a tendacy to protect
their owners.I had a cousin that had a little chaquaqua.Dern thing bit me
every time I came over to his house.I threatened to kill the little $h#@
each time.Dogs also don't like strangers getting too close in their face.
Grabbing them or startling them is not too popular either.Once again,the owner should
expect something and interviene.Bottom line, it is the owner,not the dogs fault for
unexpected injury.My opinion.


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## Swamp

*The Top 10 Most Dangerious Dogs... AND NUMBER ONE IS...GUESS*

Yes the obvious is absolutely true (at the bottom of the post), Pit Bulls are in fact THE MOST DANGERIOS DOGS. Though the American Temperament Testing Society disagrees, if you read how their test works it is conducted in as little as 8 minutes in a controlled environment on dogs brought to them by their owners; talk about adverse selection for the purpose of posting information masquerading as scientifically factual. What a scam.

Look for yourself: Top Ten (10) Most Dangerous Dog Breeds | Pets Do But lets not let facts get in the way of defending the family pet... You know when people post a poll asking for peoples opinions, it shouldn't be used to identify people who don't agree and need beat up till they conform to the opinion however misinformed it might be of a select group. Polls aren't supposed to be bear traps.

Sorry for coming back but I told a friend last night that someone on a forum is trying to say Golden Retrievers are more dangerous than Pit Bulls. We laughed and laughed then I couldn't help but dig up some real information.

Top Ten (10) Most Dangerous Dog Breeds
All dogs can be potentially dangerous, however some dogs are more dangerous than others. Various types of breeds can be considerably stronger and larger than a person of average size. Training, socialization and proper care can make a significant impact, however some dogs are by years of breeding more aggressive. After in depth research and analyzing the studies performed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States, we have compiled the top ten most dangerous dog breeds. By: admin Posted: October 15, 2007 10. Dalmatian

Dalmatians are very protective dogs and can be aggressive towards humans. They are very active and need lots of exercise. They have very sensitive natures and an excellent memory. This bred is famed for their intelligence, indepedence, and survival instincts.

Weight: 40-70 lbs.
Origin: Yugoslavia

9. Boxer

Unlike their name suggest, these dogs are not typically aggressive by nature. They are bright, energetic and playful breed. Boxers have been known to be "headstrong", which makes it a bit difficult to train them but with positive reinforcement techniques, Boxers often respond much better.

Weight: 50-70 lbs.
Origin: Germany

8. Presa Canario

Originally bred to guard and fight with cattle, an attack by this dog has been described as hopeless for the victim. They are a guardian breed with man-stopping ability, incredible power and a complete lack of fear.

Weight: 80-115 lbs.
Origin: Canary Islands

7. Chow Chow

These dogs can be aggressive if poorly bred. The Chow Chow may appear to be independent and aloof for much of the day but needs constant reinforcement.

Weight: 50-70 lbs.
Origin: China

6. Doberman Pinschers

Dobermans are great guard dogs for their alertness, intelligence and loyalty. They can be agressive dogs when provoked. The typical pet Doberman attacks only if it believes that it, its property, or its family are in danger.

Weight: 65-90 lbs.
Origin: Germany

5. Alaskan Malamutes

These dogs are very energetic and active. If they are bored, they can become destructive. That's why this dog needs lots of exercise to be happy.

Weight: 75-100 lbs.
Origin: Nordic

4. Huskies

Very energetic and intelligent dogs. Not considered a good guard dog because of its personality characteristics and gentle temperament. A 2000 study of dog bites resulting in human fatalities in the U.S. found fifteen such fatalities (6% of the total) were caused by "husky-type" dogs between 1979 and 1997.

Weight: 44-66 lbs.
Origin: Alaska

3. German Shepherds

These dogs are intelligent and very alert. They are highly used by local authorities such as the police K-9 unit. German shepherds are known to be fearless and confident dogs.

Weight: 70-100 lbs.
Origin: Germany

2. Rottweilers

Rottweilers are known to be very aggressive dogs because of their keen territorial instincts. That's why they make great guard dogs.

Weight: 100-130 lbs.
Origin: Germany

1. Pit Bulls

A pit bull is a fearless dog that will take on any opponent. They will lock their jaws onto the prey until it's dead. Pit bulls have a reputation of mauling people to death and they are highly sought for dog fighting.

Weight: 55-65 lbs.
Origin: United States

Dogs most often make wonderful pets, however in certain circumstances, any type of dog can be dangerous. Even friendly dogs, can inflict great harm in the wrong circumstance.


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## snowman46919

Swamp said:


> 1. Pit Bulls
> 
> A pit bull is a fearless dog that will take on any opponent. They will lock their jaws onto the prey until it's dead. Pit bulls have a reputation of mauling people to death and they are highly sought for dog fighting.
> 
> Weight: 55-65 lbs.
> Origin: United States
> 
> Dogs most often make wonderful pets, however in certain circumstances, any type of dog can be dangerous. Even friendly dogs, can inflict great harm in the wrong circumstance.


 I am glad that you came back, I am glad you did research and I am glad that you have decided to show this all in a respectful manner as I will you. However their information on the pit bull is flawed and therefore I am not sure where they pulled it from. The pit bull is not physically capable of locking it's jaw, it is a myth accepted as fact.

Also I said that Golden Retrievers * CAN * be just as vicious as a pit bull. I dare you to get between any nursing bitch or queen and man handle her pups. Act aggressively towards a kid or come on someones property that has a female dog and you might not come back from it. That being said the one that came after me had no provocation whatsoever that I know of, there are a lot of things that people don't see as an aggressive gesture that animals do. Also I watched something interesting last night that aggressive behavior is based entirely in genetics and can be bred out in 3 generations no matter how aggressive the bloodline started. Also, with this they took a non aggressive pup and put it with an aggressive mother and it remained gentle. Then they took an aggressive pup and put it with a gentle pack and it was less inclined to aggressive behavior but was still sketchy. That being said it very much has the capability of contradicting what I feel about my own personal pet as well as the breed. Another big however though is that I know my dog's bloodline to an extent and none have shown aggression so far. I worded it open ended because I can not guarantee what will happen tomorrow or the next day for any animal or person for that matter.


----------



## Swamp

snowman you're spreading BS is over OK? Pay close attention to my post which states how your irresponsible source came up with such incredibly flawed information and let me quote the source of the information I just posted (you can read it in the post if you're not so hell bent on proving that the most dangerous dog on earth is docile. Here it is _"All dogs can be potentially dangerous, however some dogs are more dangerous than others. Various types of breeds can be considerably stronger and larger than a person of average size. Training, socialization and proper care can make a significant impact, however some dogs are by years of breeding more aggressive. *After in depth research and analyzing the studies performed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States, we have compiled the top ten most dangerous dog breeds. *By: admin Posted: October 15, 2007 10. Dalmatian"_

Save what's left of your dignity; you're done dude, you're making a fool of yourself. Pray for your children that they don't get mauled someday since NO Pit Bull can be trusted 100%.

I'm leaving again because you're talking crazy and refuse to accept the truth. Just do a Google search of "Most Dangerous Dogs" and you'll see Pit Bull in every top ten (No. 1 position). There is obviously nothing that could change your mind but to come home someday and find your child having been made lunch by your dog. And buy the way, Ohio DOES have the law requiring Pit Bull owners to have an Umbrella Liability Policy to cover the likely carnage of their Pit Bull. Oh and I didn't see Golden Retriever in that top 10 list. LMAO.....you've got to be kidding me.

Here's a copy of the email I sent to the fools at that site you refer to for posting such lies about dogs; they ought to be sued along with some Pit Bull owner for being so misguided posting such terribly wrong information.

To: '[email protected]'

Dear Sirs,

I came upon a person on an Internet forum who quotes statistics from your sites "Breed Statistics" making the argument that Golden Retrievers are as dangerous as Pit Bulls (which certainly implies the reverse that Pit Bulls are as docile as Golden Retrievers). Your test appears to be so flawed that it is actually irresponsible to post the results. If you Google "Most Dangerous Dogs" you will find the results of many reputable, leading dog organizations that have information that makes yours look foolish irresponsible dribble. I encourage you to stop posting such incorrect information so people don't get a breed of dog based on any of your worthless statistics and have one of their children eaten alive or a neighborhood child.

Please check out this of many sites that say what can't be more obvious if you watch court TV programs and see a constant supply of law suits resulting from the brutal mauling of family pets, adults and little children by Pit Bulls that you claim are as docile as Golden Retrievers. Shame on you.

Top Ten (10) Most Dangerous Dog Breeds | Pets Do

PS I'm not saying this because I'm a Golden Retriever owner but because I'm a resident of e neighborhood with a little 6 year old child who barely has a face left after what you call a stellar pet almost successfully killed her.


----------



## snowman46919

And I quote from the American humane society: there is no evidence to support a pit bull can lock its jaw. However your third party surely unbiased author quoted exactly the opposite from the same source... see what I mean about your information being flawed? And to think I would let my children alone with any animal outside of my observation is foolish. Also you misquoted me once again in saying that I said All Goldens are as dangerous as an American Pit Bull. I said that any dog including a Golden can be just as dangerous as a Pit Bull. And if the scar on my son's head is in fact from a breed that simply wouldn't harm a person THEN YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO HIM WHY AT THE AGE OF FOUR HE GOT TO HAVE HIS FACE BITTEN AND COVERED IN BLOOD AND NOW LIVES WITH THAT... fortunately he is not carrying a hatred for your socially acceptable breeds because then he might be a backward thinking liberal that can't even see the evidence on his own face.

You are living under the assumption any animal is safe and for that I feel sorry for you good day to you sir.


----------



## Swamp

snowman46919 said:


> And I quote from the American humane society: there is no evidence to support a pit bull can lock its jaw. However your third party surely unbiased author quoted exactly the opposite from the same source... see what I mean about your information being flawed? And to think I would let my children alone with any animal outside of my observation is foolish. Also you misquoted me once again in saying that I said All Goldens are as dangerous as an American Pit Bull. I said that any dog including a Golden can be just as dangerous as a Pit Bull. And if the scar on my son's head is in fact from a breed that simply wouldn't harm a person THEN YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO HIM WHY AT THE AGE OF FOUR HE GOT TO HAVE HIS FACE BITTEN AND COVERED IN BLOOD AND NOW LIVES WITH THAT... fortunately he is not carrying a hatred for your socially acceptable breeds because then he might be a backward thinking liberal that can't even see the evidence on his own face.
> 
> You are living under the assumption any animal is safe and for that I feel sorry for you good day to you sir.





> A pit bull is a fearless dog that will take on any opponent. They will lock their jaws onto the prey until it's dead. Pit bulls have a reputation of mauling people to death and they are highly sought for dog fighting.


That information comes from the conclusion of a study done by the *American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States*

snowman I can believe you continue to argue this when you are so dead in the water your carcass has rotted to nothing. You're done snoman but for the lies in your own head.


----------



## Swamp

*Email exchange with ATTS*

American Temperament Testing Society replied and I again replied all included here in full. Notice ATTS essentially says their findings aren't statistically valuable in his first sentence. Remember emails are from top to bottom in reverse order as they are sent back and forth; last communication/reply on top.

Well Tom the more I look at information you suggested the more I find your study results irresponsible and worthless. Keep in mind that your results put Pit Bulls and Golden Retrievers on a par as far as danger is concerned and, you yourself Google "federal dog bite statistics" and read the results from many National sites. Not one list will include Golden Retrievers, which your study says is just as dangerous/safe as a Pit Bull which ranks most dangerous in the National Statistics, and not by a slim margin, the difference between one and two is HUGE. You make a lot of excuses for aggressiveness while National Statistics covers every day life and what you can expect and frankly if you don't agree with that, you ought to get out of the business of stating dog temperament. Having done it since 1977 tells me that in 33 years you still haven't figured out your criteria is seriously flawed. 8 minutes with a dog does not constitute a study anymore than 8 minutes with a mentally disturbed person produces a conclusion. I think your organization has blinders on that you cant see therefore you believe in your data that is proven wrong by any other collective behavior records.

I agree with your statement of owner influence and the dog is not responsible but you leave out that Pit Bulls can easily become killers while Golden Retrievers, for example are not at all likely to be killers. In other words to parallel your statement; nitroglycerine is as safe as a glass of water, it depends on what you do with it that makes nitroglycerine explode; the nitroglycerine can not be responsible for exploding. See you say in your reply that all dogs will bite and yes that is true but lets define bite; a bite is anywhere from a nip to a killing yet you make no distinction. You force me to ask what organization are you satisfying a need for false information for profit?

Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to June 25, 2010 - By Clifton Merritt - DogsBite.org

I hope this helps you,
Xxxx

PS Notice the actual bite numbers for Huskies in the collected bit information of actual dog behavior results. While you're at it, see if you can find 1 Golden Retriever "Bodily Harm" incident verses 1654 Pitt Bull incidents. How can you possibly defend your study results that say the two breeds have equally temperament?

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Szebenyi [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:32 AM
To: Xxxx Xxxxx'
Subject: RE: Your breed statistics

Hi Xxxx,

Our site contains raw data, with no statistical significance. We have been doing these test since 1977 and all evaluators go through a lengthy apprenticeship. If you look at our data - the average passing rate for all dogs is about 80% and I would not give any significance for passing rates between 75-85%. People read into the data what they wish. Please look at our site.

In many cases dog bites are not properly investigated. The only information on the web that I trust is the State health departments dog bite statistics and the Federal dog bite statistics. Everybody has an ax to grind especially PETA. Any dog will bite (I would add humans too) if cornered and have nowhere to escape. No child should be left alone with a dog, unless properly educated - age? A provoked aggression against a human is not the dogs fault but the owners who let it happen. An animal will react to pain - not think. Thus a child falling over a sleeping dog might get bit because the dog will react to an attack. The circumstances of a bite is very important. Even after passing our test a dog can develop a tumor, hormone imbalance and other medical problems that might turn it human aggressive. Any test gives results on that day, state of dog, state of human and other factors influencing the dog. AS the AKC puts it - Responsible dog ownership - the owner is responsible for the dog - the dog cannot be responsible for itself.

I just looked at the site and I do not believe what it says. I own Siberian Huskies and they are not human aggressive. They have to live in igloos with humans and other dogs. The site does not give any links to these studies.

Hope this helps.

Tom

Thomas Szebenyi
ATTS Chief Tester
Newfield, NY
USA
E-mail: [email protected] 
Web: ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - Home

From: Xxxx Xxxxx [mailto: Xxxx Xxxxx @hotmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 3:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Your breed statistics

Dear Sirs,

I came upon a person on an Internet forum who quotes statistics from your sites "Breed Statistics" making the argument that Golden Retrievers are as dangerous as Pit Bulls (which certainly implies the reverse that Pit Bulls are as docile as Golden Retrievers). Your test appears to be so flawed that it is actually irresponsible to post the results. If you Google "Most Dangerous Dogs" you will find the results of many reputable, leading dog organizations that have information that makes yours look foolish irresponsible dribble. I encourage you to stop posting such incorrect information so people don't get a breed of dog based on any of your worthless statistics and have one of their children eaten alive or a neighborhood child.

Please check out this of many sites that say what can't be more obvious if you watch court TV programs and see a constant supply of law suits resulting from the brutal mauling of family pets, adults and little children by Pit Bulls that you claim are as docile as Golden Retrievers. Shame on you.

Top Ten (10) Most Dangerous Dog Breeds | Pets Do

Xxxx Xxxxx

PS I'm not saying this because I'm a Golden Retriever owner but because I'm a resident of e neighborhood with a little 6 year old child who barely has a face left after what you call a stellar pet almost successfully killed her.


----------



## Swamp

Sorry snowman but as I admitted I hadn't read many of your posts in their entirety, I sat down and the browser window was still sitting on this thread and even though I think the point is undeniably made (even to you) I read your last few posts and cant help but comment.

In post #113 you say your arm almost got ripped off by a Golden Retriever to support the ridiculously incorrect temperament statistics of your favorite "Pit Bulls are precious misunderstood animals" site. Then as the pressure increases that your position is seriously flawed at best, you suddenly remember in your post #121 that your son's face is all but bitten off mentally scaring him for life by a Golden Retriever.

Maybe it's just me but if I was muled by a Pit Bull and even on a separate occasion my young son was also mauled by a Pit Bull and scared for life, I'd put both of those events in the same post to make my point; not escalate the story 8 posts later. I'd say your family is either the unluckiest people in all of mankind; have a neighbor with a rabid Golden Retriever that you and your son taunted till it attacked (not even likely for a rabid Golden but I'll give some latitude here); or you're making up stories here thinking you're going to convince me and I'm stupid; I'm betting the last is true.

In conclusion to your creative writing; I wouldn't say it's impossible but I seriously doubt you could abuse a Golden such that it would maul someone as seems to happen to you and your family regularly. Golden Retrievers typically flee abusers; and I say typically only because you might find one or two in the world that would.

Rest assured now that I have posted my last information. Again sorry but I just couldn't resist pointing out your creative, escalating writing skills.


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## snowman46919

Swamp said:


> In post #113 you say your arm almost got ripped off by a Golden Retriever to support the ridiculously incorrect temperament statistics of your favorite "Pit Bulls are precious misunderstood animals" site. Then as the pressure increases that your position is seriously flawed at best, you suddenly remember in your post #121 that your son's face is all but bitten off mentally scaring him for life by a Golden Retriever.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but if I was muled by a Pit Bull and even on a separate occasion my young son was also mauled by a Pit Bull and scared for life, I'd put both of those events in the same post to make my point; not escalate the story 8 posts later. I'd say your family is either the unluckiest people in all of mankind; have a neighbor with a rabid Golden Retriever that you and your son taunted till it attacked (not even likely for a rabid Golden but I'll give some latitude here); or you're making up stories here thinking you're going to convince me and I'm stupid; I'm betting the last is true.
> 
> In conclusion to your creative writing; I wouldn't say it's impossible but I seriously doubt you could abuse a Golden such that it would maul someone as seems to happen to you and your family regularly. Golden Retrievers typically flee abusers; and I say typically only because you might find one or two in the world that would.
> 
> Rest assured now that I have posted my last information. Again sorry but I just couldn't resist pointing out your creative, escalating writing skills.


In regards to what I posted actually it was two different dogs. The one that went after my son was owned by sub standard people who never should have had a dog in the first place the one that went after me was at a family members house and I was on his property and smelled of another dog is the best reason I can provide for it. I did not provoke him in any manner. I am sorry if both of these things did not occur to me at the same time.

As for your article in which they site these sources:

The American Veterinary Medical Association opposes pit bull bans, or any other breed-specific regulation, saying that more than 25 breeds have been involved in fatal attacks on people. Rather, the association recommends enforcement of leash and anti-dogfighting laws, mandatory neutering (which minimizes sexual/territorial aggression and roaming) and instruction in responsible pet care in schools.

I already posted that the American Humane Society clearly states that pit bulls can not lock their jaws however thats what your author posted in their article. The CDC also states that their statistics are based on "Pit Bull Type Dogs." In a line up of 25 "Pit Bull Type Dogs" most people can't pick American Pit Bull Terrier out of the line up. I bet I could find several more breeds that someone could mistake for a Pit Bull. The past two vet appointments for puppy shots everyone was just in love with my chocolate lab, and I only own one dog.

I don't care to go around telling people about every bad experience I have with a dog because I simply do not base bad experiences on breeds but on dogs. If I must I will post pictures of my sons face to prove to you that happened or at best the medical records because they insisted on taking pictures of something I thought was a moot point. If the AVMA and HMSA thought that pit bulls were so incredibly dangerous why do they expend such time and effort defending the breed specific legislation and pit bull bans? The CDC already admits that their statistics may be flawed, and there are I don't know how many statistics out there on the misidentification of breeds. At best currently without any type of blood testing done only 25% of all canines in America can be identified on physical appearance alone. That being said there is an immeasurable amount of mix breeds out there that simply don't need much pit bull genetics to get the physical appearance of a pit bull.

Here is a short list of the people that don't support the breed specific legislation that you seem to be close to promoting:
American Dog Owners Association (ADOA)

American Humane

American Kennel Club (AKC)

American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)

American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)

American Working Dog Federation (AWDF)

Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT)

Best Friends Animal Society

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)

International Assocation of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)

International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP)

National Animal Control Association (NACA)

National Animal Interest Alliance (NAIA)

National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors (NADOI)

And since they are such a dangerous dog I am glad they don't use them as therapy dogs in nursing homes and hospitals... Oh wait that would be here. I really wouldn't want such a dangerous type of dog that rips people to shreds with nothing but blood on their mind to help rescue bleeding injured victims wait that would be right here.

And by the way you once again misquoted and misread saying that my son was mentally scarred when he simply wasn't he loves dogs, all dogs no matter their breed. If I said that he was I misspoke and I apologize. Another huge point that needs to be made here is that my dog and the original poster's dogs are all American Pit Bull Terrier to be completely politically correct. The term pit bull in most professional circles relates to about 20 breeds of dogs.

Some other foods for thought:


National Canine Research Foundation said:


> No breed or type of dog has a particular method of attack or inflicts an exclusive type of injury. Claims that one breed of dog inflicts injuries unlike other breeds have no merit.


And for a closing chuckle, the dachshund and retriever is also on the list of animals that have caused fatalities from attacking people.


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## Swamp

You're too funny.... just cant get it can you? I know; it's the whole rest of the World that is screwed up but you've got it right.

So let me guess, Pit Bulls are determined to not be able to "Lock" their jaws because they don't come with a key? You've never seen a Pit Bull attack or you're in denial while the footage plays. Pit Bulls lock on with unbreakable determination; they grab the neck of their prey and shake them till they die. As many attacks as I've seen, that support the overwhelming information supporting it, the dog clamps down and even while being beaten with a bat by a strong adult man will not release their death hold on their prey.

Hey have any other family members come to mind that have been mauled by a Golden Retriever? As a joke I tell my friends that story and none of them respond with anything but: "If my son were mauled by a Golden Retriever it would be the first thing I said about the subject". Snowman it's just not something you forget to mention but nice try backpedaling..


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## snowman46919

Swamp said:


> You're too funny.... just cant get it can you? I know; it's the whole rest of the World that is screwed up but you've got it right.
> 
> So let me guess, Pit Bulls are determined to not be able to "Lock" their jaws because they don't come with a key? You've never seen a Pit Bull attack or you're in denial while the footage plays. Pit Bulls lock on with unbreakable determination; they grab the neck of their prey and shake them till they die. As many attacks as I've seen, that support the overwhelming information supporting it, the dog clamps down and even while being beaten with a bat by a strong adult man will not release their death hold on their prey.
> 
> Hey have any other family members come to mind that have been mauled by a Golden Retriever? As a joke I tell my friends that story and none of them respond with anything but: "If my son were mauled by a Golden Retriever it would be the first thing I said about the subject". Snowman it's just not something you forget to mention but nice try backpedaling..


Actually its the medical evidence with the structure of the skull, mandible, and muscle structure. A German Shepard and Rottweiler both have a harder and stronger bite but I certainly haven't heard about their locking jaws. As for the whole Golden Retriever thing I really could give a damn less what dog attacked my son as long as it was a dead dog. As far as back peddling I maintain what I have said to be true and will stand by it no matter what you seem to think to be true.

*But let's just get this straight you are denying the evidence put forth by almost every respected animal organization in this nation as well as using the CDC's bite statistics while taking them out of context?* The ASPCA one of the leading if not top animal organizations in the country have stated that all dogs are a predatory animal by nature and should be treated as such. Key phrase there is all dogs and this was an answer about the specific tenacity of a pit bull.

Keep drinking your Court TV eye witness accounts of pit bull attacks bet you can't pick one out of a line up.


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## Swamp

SNOWMAN YOU ARE TOTALLY FULL OF CRAP.

You should be an Obama speechwriter you spin so well. Clearly the obvious eludes you and the only information you think is right is what says what you believe which is crap. Just because all dogs can bite doesn't mean they all hold the top "most deadly dog" position like Pit Bulls do. What don't you understand about that? Nothing is going to convince you so just remain in La, La land till it hits home.

That's a rhetorical question.... Ta, ta.


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## bayhawk2

Ahh.If we all agreed on everything this would be a perfect world.
As we all know it is so -so far away from being perfect.Sometimes
we just have to agree to dis agree.If that does'nt work then we just
walk away.


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## 77transam

As a pitbull owner, I must say that I'm a little biased here, :mrgreen: but I've owned various breeds in my 42 years, and hands down, my pit has been the best dog I've ever had. She's been socialized from day one, never hit,slapped, or wrestled with. She's leash and hand/vocal trained. Whenever I take her out with me in public, the first thing most people do is get really nervous and freeze. Then, when she gets to wriggling and licking them, they realize she's just a sweet dog and relax. But I don't allow anyone to encourage her to be aggressive. (y'know what I'm talking about, the play slapping and pushing)

Dogs don't play like humans. They don't interact like humans. Their thought processes are not human. They operate by sight and smell and body language. They have a pecking order. That's just their nature. As responsible owners, we can modify their natural traits to fit in with ours, but in the end, they are still domesticated wolves. In the wild, if a pack encounters a lone wolf, they will do 1 of 2 things. Incorporate it into their pack or kill it. It all depends on how their Alpha handles it. Yes, they do have differing levels of tolerance/aggression, just like every other species here on the planet.

Past dogs I've owned; German Shepards, Labs, Pomeranian, and Chihuahua. The pom and chi were BY FAR the most aggressive. I mean just flat out ferocious!:smt082 If another dog/cat got within smelling distance, they would try to go after 'em. Just totally nuts! 

Pits are just the flavor of the week as far as perceived aggression. In the past it's been German Shepards, Dobermans, Chows, Akitas, and Rottweilers. At one time in America, pits were considered the ideal family pet. Anybody remember the Little Rascals? Petey (the dog) was a UKC registered Amer. pit bull terrier. Buster Brown shoes put its mascot in every shoe with the image of Tige, an American Pit Bull Terrier, to enhance its image as a sturdy, dependable shoe. RCA used Nipper, a pit bull of unknown ancestry, to illustrate the clarity of sound emanating from its phonograph.

The associations with gangs and illegal dog-fighting has pushed Pits to the forefront of the media, and all the negativity that comes with it. When in reality, the American Pit Bull Terrier is a loyal,loving,intelligent, and well-balanced breed that has a long and storied history that is an important part of this country's heritage.

Just like recent events have shown, humans are far more dangerous and likely to snap than Pitbulls, or any other dog for that matter. :yawinkle: I get rather upset when I hear of cities/counties outlawing/banning pit bull ownership because of perceived aggression. So, many shelters do not offer pit bulls or any dog that might be part pit bull to be adopted. Insurance companies cancel house insurance if a pit bull is in residence. Neighbors mistake everything from Boxers to Pugs as "pit bulls". Elimination/outlawing of a breed of dog because of poor, irresponsible ownership and media sensationalism is a tragedy to me and a testament to the public's ignorance of the breed's history and true character.:smt1099


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## Swamp

Oh give me a break with your heart felt story. I don't doubt for a minute that there are Pit Bulls in some peoples possession that are not monsters otherwise the breed would be exterminated but your story and the stories of the other few here are isolated dogs and as the compilation of information so clearly and loudly states from organizations that to say the least dwarf your testimony, Pit Bulls ARE THE MOST DANGERIOUS DOG YOU CAN OWN.

I'd suggest you read the entire thread and look at the renowned organizations that contradict your dog (singular) or maybe you can straighten out the ignorance if their experiences. LOL Click on all the URL's and read, and then YOU'LL not be ignorant and blinded by one dog. You are aware that there are states that require a Pit Bull owner to carry a Million Dollar umbrella liability policy to help cover the carnage these dogs are so famous to cause don't you? Gee, wonder why it's only Pit Bulls they require that of? Must be that nasty lying media making those dogs eat their neighbors children then reporting the carnage.


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## 77transam

Oh give me a break with your trolling,confrontational style. Using your obviously superior intellectual argument and statistical wizardry, here's some statistics for you:

1) About 40 people (children)per year die by drowning in 5 gallon water pails. A person, during their lifetime, is 16 times more likely to drown in a 5 gal. water pail than be killed by a pitbull.

2) Approx. 50 children in the US are killed by their cribs-25 times the number of adults/children killed by pitbulls.

3)Approx. 150 people a year are killed by falling coconuts, therefore you are 60 times more likely to be killed by a palm tree than a pitbull.

4)Every year, 350 people drown in their bathtubs. You are 151 times more likely to be killed by your bathtub than a pitbull.

5)Every year, more than 2000 children in the US are killed by their parents or guardians, either through abuse or neglect. A child is 800 times more likely to be killed by their caretaker than by a pitbull.

6)It has been estimated that for every pitbull that kills, there are 10.5 million that don't.

So it's obvious to me that water pails, bathtubs, coconuts, and parents are FAR more dangerous than pitbulls, as STATISTICALLY, they kill far more people/children. Yet when's the last time you saw a nationwide campaign to outlaw/ban buckets, palm trees, or bathtubs?

And since we're on a gun forum, do you want me to start quoting statistics for people crippled, maimed, or killed by guns? Using your same logic and "documented" and "irrefutable evidence", I could make the same argument that all handguns should be outlawed because every major study shows that the overwhelming majority of people killed in violent crimes were killed by a handgun. So handguns are the most dangerous weapon out there. Never mind the fact that it takes a human being to pull a trigger. Never mind the fact that it takes a human being to leave a gun loaded and accessible to a child.

Just like all the media fear-mongering about the dangers of certain types of guns and that this gun is more dangerous than that gun, ALL guns can be dangerous. Just because more people are shot with a 9mm does not make it more dangerous than a .357. The FACTS of the matter are human negligence,carelessness and stupidity are responsible for violence, not guns.

The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by *at most* 0.2% of mtDNA sequence. In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence. All the different breeds and their characteristics and traits have been selectively bred into them by HUMANS. ALL medium/large dogs have the physical and mental capability to kill and maim, because they are predatory animals. But because 10 pitbulls out of 10 million are reported for attacks, and only 4 Labradors are reported, the breed is "FAR" more dangerous and should be outlawed/eradicated? Heck, while were at it, lets do the same with humans. Whatever ethnic group has the highest percentage of violent crimes committed, let's list them as the "MOST DANGEROUS RACE IN THE WORLD!"

But no, we wouldn't do that because it's unethical,biased, and racist.

People like you are hilarious to me because you like to quote statistics and surveys and yet neglect to account for the human factor behind those statistics. You claim that statistics that dispute yours are "biased" or "flawed". LOL.:smt082. Just like gun statistics, the overwhelming majority of accidents, attacks, and fatalities can be traced to negligent/uncaring/irresponsible owners. Poor breeding practices, encouraging aggression/fighting, and lack of supervision and proper training are the primary causes of ANY dog attack, not just pitbulls. And the FACT that in a significant # of these attacks, the dogs are not true purebred American bull terriers, but mixed breeds coming from unstable genetic bloodlines and puppy mills.

Yes pitbulls can be dangerous. Yes, they can be an unrelenting, aggressive, and deadly dog, I'm not disputing that. But to lump the entire breed into a category based on the actions of isolated attacks is biased and flawed thinking. Just as all law-abiding gun owners should not be held responsible for the isolated actions of idiots and criminals who abuse their right to own a firearm. My pump- action 12ga. can be a dangerous,unrelenting, and deadly weapon if used irresponsibly. But if someone kicks my front door in, I would consider those traits to be quite valuable. My dog is no different.

I didn't get my dog because I wanted the notoriety of owning a "pit". I adopted her to save her from being killed as a bait dog or seized and euthanized because of her "ethnic" background. She is now 3 years old, socialized with animals and people of all shapes and sizes and fully leash trained. Because I, as a responsible owner, took the necessary steps to train her that way.

You obviously know nothing about responsible ownership and training of ANY animal, because if you did, you would not be spewing the same old rhetoric and fear that the dogs are to blame. The true American Bull Terrier is recognized as a loyal,trustworthy, and noble breed. Why don't YOU do a little research into the breeds true history (I would suggest starting with the UKC/AKC and library of congress) and quit trying to convince others that you actually know anything about the true breed and the history behind it.


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## Swamp

I refuse to even read all that twisted justification/gibberish.....

Here's the bottom line; which is the most dangerous dog? Answer; Pit Bull by a landslide.

The question isn't Pit Bulls or swimming pools, but then I ask why you don't include how many people die in automobile accidents verses killed by Pit Bulls.

You ought to run for president; you're good at twisting horrible facts into great news.

Remember, the only question here is which breed of dog is the most dangerous?.....and you cant accept the answer.

I cant wait to see your next perversion of the facts/issue. Go pick a fight you can win...troll.


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## 77transam

:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084:smt084 Then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Swamp.


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## Swamp

I'd call it something very different but I'll go with that so you might post something valuable somewhere since every post since you joined is bellyaching about Pit Bulls being the most dangerous dog.

For the safety of the people around you and God help your children if there are any; don't be more dangerous than your dog by denying reality.


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## bruce333

77transam said:


> Then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Swamp.


exactly


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