# North Carolina denied my CCW application???



## loki_racer

I live in North Carolina and thought I met all the requirements for a CCW. I applied and was denied due to a 6 year old court case which was sealed by the court.

The sheriff's office says that because I have a sealed case, the permit was denied and if I want to dispute it I need to file with the court.

However, they did not provide any information about who to file the petition with and what I need to file.

I am willing to file and am interested in getting a lawyer to handle this since I feel that I meet the requirements.

Thanks.


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## undrgrnd

did this happen when you were a juvenile? do you mind me asking what the case involved? in texas you would need to contact either the county or district clerk or talk to the da. sealed cases are exactly what it says. they are sealed but not yet dimissed you may have to go to the state level to clear it.


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## Todd

loki_racer said:


> The sheriff's office says that because I have a sealed case, the permit was denied and if I want to dispute it I need to file with the court.
> 
> However, they did not provide any information who to file the petition with and what I need to file.


Did you actually _ask_ for the information and they would not tell you; or did you expect them to just volunteer the information, which they will assuredly not do?


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## loki_racer

I guess I shouldn't have said "they didn't provide any information."

What I should have said is that I was unable to find any information about filing a petition with the courts to have this reviewed. I am pretty decent at locating information on the internet, but without even a law to reference, searching for terms like "petition concealed carry permit denial" in google don't return much.

Here's a blog entry about it all.


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## tony pasley

First you would have to get the record expunged then try for the appeal.
While you have a sealed court record sitting out there you will not get approved no matter what age at the time.


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## Todd

You paid $400 for the permit? Wow! I'd love to know the breakdown of the individual costs where you are. Here in Wake it's at or under $200 total, depending on your class cost.


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## js

from your blog...



> About a week later I received a notice in the mail from the sheriff's office stating that they had found a felon arrest in Alabama and needed me to supply them with a certified copy of the disposition of the case before they would rule on issuing the permit. I knew it was going to be hard to get information about the court case since it was a sealed case. I had pleaded guilty


NC Law for CCW


> § 14‑415.12. Criteria to qualify for the issuance of a permit.
> (a) The sheriff shall issue a permit to an applicant if the applicant qualifies under the following criteria:
> (1) The applicant is a citizen of the United States and has been a resident of the State 30 days or longer immediately preceding the filing of the application.
> (2) The applicant is 21 years of age or older.
> (3) The applicant does not suffer from a physical or mental infirmity that prevents the safe handling of a handgun.
> (4) The applicant has successfully completed an approved firearms safety and training course which involves the actual firing of handguns and instruction in the laws of this State governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and the use of deadly force. The North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission shall prepare and publish general guidelines for courses and qualifications of instructors which would satisfy the requirements of this subdivision. An approved course shall be any course which satisfies the requirements of this subdivision and is certified or sponsored by:
> a. The North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission,
> b. The National Rifle Association, or
> c. A law enforcement agency, college, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school, taught by instructors certified by the North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission or the National Rifle Association.
> Every instructor of an approved course shall file a copy of the firearms course description, outline, and proof of certification annually, or upon modification of the course if more frequently, with the North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission.
> (5) The applicant is not disqualified under subsection (b) of this section.
> (b) The sheriff shall deny a permit to an applicant who:
> (1) Is ineligible to own, possess, or receive a firearm under the provisions of State or federal law.
> (2) Is under indictment or against whom a finding of probable cause exists for a felony.
> (3) Has been adjudicated guilty in any court of a felony.
> (4) Is a fugitive from justice.
> (5) Is an unlawful user of, or addicted to marijuana, alcohol, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance as defined in 21 U.S.C. § 802.
> (6) Is currently, or has been previously adjudicated by a court or administratively determined by a governmental agency whose decisions are subject to judicial review to be, lacking mental capacity or mentally ill. Receipt of previous consultative services or outpatient treatment alone shall not disqualify an applicant under this subdivision.
> (7) Is or has been discharged from the armed forces under conditions other than honorable.
> (8) Is or has been adjudicated guilty of or received a prayer for judgment continued or suspended sentence for one or more crimes of violence constituting a misdemeanor, including but not limited to, a violation of a misdemeanor under Article 8 of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes, or a violation of a misdemeanor under G.S. 14‑225.2, 14‑226.1, 14‑258.1, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑269.6, 14‑276.1, 14‑277, 14‑277.1, 14‑277.2, 14‑277.3, 14‑281.1, 14‑283, 14‑288.2, 14‑288.4(a)(1) or (2), 14‑288.6, 14‑288.9, 14‑288.12, 14‑288.13, 14‑288.14, 14‑318.2, 14‑415.21(b), or 14‑415.26(d).
> (9) Has had entry of a prayer for judgment continued for a criminal offense which would disqualify the person from obtaining a concealed handgun permit.
> (10) Is free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a crime which would disqualify him from obtaining a concealed handgun permit.
> (11) Has been convicted of an impaired driving offense under G.S. 20‑138.1, 20‑138.2, or 20‑138.3 within three years prior to the date on which the application is submitted. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; c. 509, s. 135.3(d); 1997‑441, s. 4; 2007‑427, s. 5.)


pretty cut and dry case... you have been convicted of a felony. Unless you get it expunged, you're not going to get one. You'll have to have the Governor of Alabama expunge/dismiss the felony. Or at least that how it works in NC to my understanding.

No matter what... You're getting ready to spend a whole lot of money... good Luck.

also, from your blog...


> Now, I am no lawyer, but instantly made me sick to my stomach for one main reason. The sheriff's office had decided on it's own that it would decide that it knew better than a court of law what crimes I was guilty of.


NC Law gives the County Sheriff issuing the permit full power of deciding who gets one...and who doesn't. Your Sheriff sees a felony on your record... A felony is a felony. The state gives him the final say.


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## DevilsJohnson

> NC Law gives the County Sheriff issuing the permit full power of deciding who gets one...and who doesn't. Your Sheriff sees a felony on your record... A felony is a felony. The state gives him the final say.


Yup :reading:


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## unpecador

So *loki_racer*, what's your next move going to be? I suppose it's a matter of how bad you want to legally carry in NC, how much money you have, and how far you are willing to take this. Have you considered moving to Alabama? The lady on the phone has assured you that it wouldn't be a problem getting a CCW there.


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## loki_racer

I believe some of you have misread what I wrote. I have a felony arrest. Not a felony conviction.

The police can arrest you on trumped up charges any day of the week. That doesn't mean you will actually go to court over those charges or even be convicted of those charges.

I don't think it's a matter of how bad I want to carry. I don't actually plan on carrying a weapon unless I am headed hiking or camping. I also think that if the sheriff's deem that they knew better than the Alabama court system what I crimes I am actually convicted of, then I have a major problem.

I actually came here looking for advice. I consider myself a good standing citizen. The only interaction with law enforcement since this incident was a speeding ticket. I received DoD Secret clearance after this incident. This will be my last response because I can feel the tone of the members to extremely accusatory.


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## js

loki_racer said:


> I believe some of you have misread what I wrote. I have a felony arrest. Not a felony conviction.


???

But in your blog you said that you pleaded guilty to that felony arrest....? Pleading guilty to a felony or even a misdemeanor is a conviction.



> About a week later I received a notice in the mail from the sheriff's office stating that they had found a felon arrest in Alabama and needed me to supply them with a certified copy of the disposition of the case before they would rule on issuing the permit. I knew it was going to be hard to get information about the court case since it was a sealed case. I had pleaded guilty of being a youthful offender in Alabama and didn't have any information from the case. I called the clerk's office in Alabama and finally got in contact with a lady that could help me get a copy of the disposition to the sheriff's office. She assured me that under Alabama law, being found guilty of being a YOA wouldn't be grounds for denial of a CCW in Alabama


.

It may not be an issue in the State of Alabama, but in this state (NC)... it is.

not trying to be a smartass, I'm just reading what you wrote and trying to tell you what you can expect.

You have two options... Stay is NC and fight it or move back to Alabama where it isn't an issue.


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## Todd

js said:


> ???
> 
> But in your blog you said that you pleaded guilty to that felony arrest....? Pleading guilty to a felony or even a misdemeanor is a conviction.


Yup, that's where I'm confused too. I read it that you had a felony arrest and pleaded guilty to that arrest, which means you were guilty of a felony. If you pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor or had some other deal with the DA, please clarify.

The other option, since you said you're only going to carry while hiking or camping is open carry. No permit needed for that. Of course, open carry or CCW, you best be sure you're not carrying on federal or state property or you will be explaining yourself to a NC judge.



loki_racer said:


> This will be my last response because I can feel the tone of the members to extremely accusatory.


Members being accusatory? Come on now. Everyone here, IMO, has tried to help, but I think we don't have the whole story. You want accusatory, this is accusatory. Your very first post and you tell us you got denied your CCW and, how all of us read it, you pleaded guilty to a felony in AL. It's as if you want someone here to provide you with some magic solution to circumvent the laws here in NC. You're not going to get it. Free advice time is over. You want it so bad, call an attorney. Frankly I think you're lucky that people took the time to respond and didn't just hit the bullshit button because your story has more holes in in than an overused target.









I have to say it really pisses me off when *any* new member shows up asking some type of question, doesn't get the answer he likes, then tries to dump on the long standing members of this forum that took the time to try to answer the question!


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## loki_racer

You can call the bullshit all you want. I was arrested for a felony. Being arrested for something is completely different than being convicted of something.

I was arrested for a felony. I plead guilty to being a YOA, which is not a felony.

I'm not looking for an out or an easy route. I'm was looking for information about how a YOA/sealed case effected getting a CCW in NC. I know I did a crime and I have done the "time". I'm not a felon and don't feel that a sheriff's office, in any state, has the right to determine the letter of the law. They are there to enforce the law, not to interpret it. That's what courts are for.

What this boils down to is simply this. I do not have a felony conviction in any state. The local sheriff's office declined my permit because they determined that under NC law, even though I didn't receive a felony conviction in AL, that I would have received one here. If I had been in NC at the time, I would have dealt with it differently, obviously.

I have contacted an attorney, but wanted to see if I could resolve this, with some insight from people on the internet (this forum) without having to spend a lot of money. If it had been as cut and dry as having a felony conviction, I wouldn't have even pursued the CCW. I didn't show up here looking for specific answer.

I showed up here looking for intelligent insight on gun laws in NC and opinions on what route to take.


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## Mike Barham

A felony conviction makes you ineligible to even _possess_ a firearm under federal law. Not sure if the youthful offender program in Alabama is supposed to erase records after a certain time, but apparently it didn't in this case, since the guilty plea showed up on a background check.

For insight on law, it is best to contact a practicing attorney, not some random people on a shooting forum.


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## loki_racer

I know I said I wouldn't respond, but I feel that this forum is the best way to advertise(for lack of a better term) information about this type of situation.

I found this information about YOA in Alabama. Paragraph (a) says it all.


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## Mike Barham

loki_racer said:


> I found this information about YOA in Alabama. Paragraph (a) says it all.


How does an Alabama law apply to North Carolina?


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## Todd

Mike Barham said:


> How does an Alabama law apply to North Carolina?


I think we all know the answer to that. :smt033


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## unpecador

Mike Barham said:


> For insight on law, it is best to contact a practicing attorney, not some random people on a shooting forum.


+1 :mrgreen:


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## loki_racer

Sorry for the bump on this old thread, but I have some news that I wanted to share with others that could be in the same situation as I was.

I did hire a lawyer. Before he filed the petition with the clerk of courts he contacted the sheriff's office lawyer and after many months of back and forth, they finally issued the permit.

I am now in the process of suing the sheriff in small claims for the cost of the lawyer.

It was extremely costly for me and took much longer than a normal permit takes to receive, but in the end, I was right about the sheriff making the incorrect decision to issue me a concealed carry permit based solely because I pled guilty to being a youthful offender.


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## Waffen

loki_racer said:


> Sorry for the bump on this old thread, but I have some news that I wanted to share with others that could be in the same situation as I was.
> 
> I did hire a lawyer. Before he filed the petition with the clerk of courts he contacted the sheriff's office lawyer and after many months of back and forth, they finally issued the permit.
> 
> I am now in the process of suing the sheriff in small claims for the cost of the lawyer.
> 
> It was extremely costly for me and took much longer than a normal permit takes to receive, but in the end, I was right about the sheriff making the incorrect decision to issue me a concealed carry permit based solely because I pled guilty to being a youthful offender.


Don't sue the Sheriff I'm sure he didn't do anything with the intent of hurting you. Remember in a court of law you'll need to show intent and damages because of that intent. If he was doing his job and saw a sealed felony conviction he did the right thing and you will lose.

JMO

W


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## C-Kicks

I read this whole thread. I am a little disapointed in that the blog link does not work. I am interested in reading that. I am glad to see it all worked out for you. Do you mind telling us how much you spent on attorney fees and other cost and how much you plane to sue for?


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## loki_racer

C-Kicks, I fixed the link to my blog entry.

Waffen, again, there was no conviction. I was never convicted of a crime, ever. Pleading guilt to being a youthful offender isn't a conviction. I'm suing because the Sheriff failed to do his job correctly and I feel that by him failing to do his job correctly, he damaged me. If he had done his job correctly, I wouldn't have had to hire a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, so obviously this is just how I feel and I might not win.

The lawyer cost $1500. I plan on suing for $1500 + court fees and my time.


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## babs

This is the reason I'm one of those radicals that agrees with the motor-city madman, good ole' Ted.. When he says sternly "The blankity blank 2nd amendment itself IS my license to carry". .. Though I maintain as disclaimer that I am a completely law-abiding citizen :smt083 who will be applying myself soon for the NC CC permit. 

I don't know that I can necessarily say the Sheriff was at fault, but the system around the whole issue was surely at fault. Good luck suing the system. 

If you notice.. The system is by design a guarantee to keep attorneys who built the system gainfully employed.


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## dave33

loki

Congrats on getting your CC license issued. Did the lawyer you hired advise you to sue for attorney fees? Just curious. If you are going to sue in small claims court and represent yourself keep in mind you are going to be presenting your case in front of a magistrate, not a real judge or jury and they do not always know the law. Might be good to get a little professional advise before you spend the time and effort on something that may be a waste in the first place.

I have no idea if you are legally entitled to your attorney fees or not but it seems like your attorney would have mentioned that to you so he could represent you and sue for even more fees. Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.


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## Waffen

loki_racer said:


> C-Kicks, I fixed the link to my blog entry.
> 
> Waffen, again, there was no conviction. I was never convicted of a crime, ever. Pleading guilt to being a youthful offender isn't a conviction. I'm suing because the Sheriff failed to do his job correctly and I feel that by him failing to do his job correctly, he damaged me. If he had done his job correctly, I wouldn't have had to hire a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, so obviously this is just how I feel and I might not win.
> 
> The lawyer cost $1500. I plan on suing for $1500 + court fees and my time.


I hope it all works out. But keep in mind one thing for future reference. You did get convicted, not by a jury or judge but by your own words when you said I'm guilty... Sorry buts that's how it works.

W


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## DevilsJohnson

I think I'm missing something here. A guilty plea gets you convicted of something. Maybe not the original felony but something. I am guessing the sheriffs office run your Soc and got the hit in Al that you went to court on a felony charge. Now if plea bargained with the DA great. But if it was sealed you still went to court on a felony charge and they seen a guilty plea and that's what bumped you. While I'm happy it all worked out for you I really don't see this as the sheriff's office being at fault for anything. While you may well get a judge to grant you the judgment being the law really does not have a lot to do with civil court I don't know ....If it was me if I could ask them to pay for a mistake that in the beginning I made.

The office had nothing to go on but the court record they were allowed to see. Really if you want to lay blame it's at the feet of the one that was arrested to begin with. And the burden of proof that you that you did not get convicted. Getting a permit is not a criminal court. You are not innocent until pronounced guilty. 

If they would have given you the permit to begin with and then were audited and seen according to the information about you that the auditor could get that you were not supposed to get the permit. Because they still would have not been able to access a sealed case. That could have caused a lot of trouble. Maybe get enough backlash that many other people don't get a permit. But you got yours, and you're going to get them to pay for it. Good deal.

Glad you got it straightened out.


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