# FMJ vs. JHP



## wiseguy

I had an odd conversation today while picking up my HK45. Salesman asked if I wanted to buy ammo...naturally I said yes. He went for the ball ammo and I told him I had plenty of that but I required more hollow points, I used the term "defensive load". The guy gave me a funny look and told me that FMJs were defense loads and that JHPs were considered "offensive"...this is contrary to pretty much everything I've been told. I see where the guy is coming from though. I went ahead and bought some 230gr JHP from Double Tap anyway :smt033 but it leads me to my poll...what do you all load out with for carry/home defense?

PS....I asked the guy what he carried and he replied "Black Talons"..... :smt082


----------



## Mike Barham

Eh? "Offensive load" in a _pistol_, which is conceptually a _defensive_ weapon? WTF does that mean? If I wanted to go on the offense, I sure wouldn't choose a puny pistol.

I carry JHPs in all calibers. .45 ball isn't a terrible choice for defense, but there are lots of better loads.


----------



## mvslay

I carry Federal 200gr Expanding Metal Jacket in my Kimber. My .357 has 158gr Semi Wadcutter in it.


----------



## OMSBH44

My favorite revolver loads are Keith type flat nosed bullets.
BTW I carry a revolver now.


----------



## Revolver

I don't like to use jacketed bullets if I don't need to. I also don't buy factory stuff to carry.


----------



## Baldy

I roll my own and about 95% are 185gr/.45 LSWC's. In my .38/.357's I use a lead 125gr or 146gr LCN. My .380 I use store bought HP's. My .44/.44mag I use LSWC's 200/240gr.:supz:


----------



## VegasEgo

*Democrats*

Well all my JHP, aim for babies and cause cancer. When shooting they go straight for hospitals and schools.... maybe I should get some new ammo?


----------



## glockman19

All of my HD/SD firearms are loaded with either Federal Hydra Shok's or Speer Gold Dot's.


----------



## Charlie

Lead semi-wad cutters for my .44, Speer or Remington HP for the 9 and .45, and FMJs for gongs and paper targets. :smt028


----------



## Water-Man

I would question your salesman's knowledge, and the ammo he carries (Black Talon) is old stuff and not the best.


----------



## gmaske

Tools are neither offensive nor defensive. It's all in how you use them that matters.
45ACP so's if the hollowpoints don't work they still make a pretty big leak.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

If ball ammo was better for defensive purposes we wouldn't be having a million threads discussing different brands/designs of JHPs. Sure, a .45ACP FMJ will still cause as much or more damage than about any expanding 9mm, but why stop there? Make the biggest hole you can...a quality SD round in .45ACP, when fully expanded, will reach diameters of at least .600", some of them even pushing .750"+. That's as wide as a 12-gauge slug.


----------



## stormbringerr

hollow points for self defense always. specifically jhp federal 9mm,147gr.hst for me.:watching:black talons may be somewhat old technology,but i certainly would not want to get hit w/one.
it mostly depends on the placement anyway. i feel i carry one of the best made.for personal defense you should choose the best.


----------



## Tscott

The guy who taught my concealed carry class said he preferred FMJ for self defense in 9mm. His reasoning was all about penetration, he stated that he could shoot through a car door or similar with a 9mm FMJ where a 9mm JHP may disintegrate in a similar situation. I can see his reasoning. Not sure I agree, but hey thats why it's an opinion. I have carried with both and surely do not feel under gunned with FMJ in the tube, but I must admit I prefer a good quality JHP. 

Tom


----------



## brifol6111

I carry Federal HydraShoks if i'm carrying .40s&w or .45acp. For home defence I have a mixed mag in my .380 of Glaser blue tip Frangibles and Winchester STX JHP's.

brokenimage


----------



## Mike Barham

Tscott said:


> The guy who taught my concealed carry class said he preferred FMJ for self defense in 9mm. His reasoning was all about penetration, he stated that he could shoot through a car door or similar with a 9mm FMJ where a 9mm JHP may disintegrate in a similar situation. I can see his reasoning. Not sure I agree, but hey thats why it's an opinion. I have carried with both and surely do not feel under gunned with FMJ in the tube, but I must admit I prefer a good quality JHP.


Wow. 9mm ball generally penetrates over 24" of gelatin. That's pretty much guaranteed to go all the way through an attacker with enough energy left over to wound a second person.

CorBon DPX does very well on cars, and does not "disintegrate." All rounds that meet the FBI protocols do reasonably well on car bodies, auto glass, etc.


----------



## Liko81

I think the statement may have been made as a result of the Harold Fish case in Arizona; Exhibit A was the fact that a 10mm handgun with hollow-point ammunition was used, and the prosecution stressed that Fish overreacted before ever meeting his assailant by choosing to carry that weapon and loading it with that ammunition. The prosecutor's closing remarks included, quote:



> Mr. Fish shot him three times in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets, and caused his death. That's murder.


Fish was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to ten years' imprisonment, and his case is pending appeal.

Because of this, some gun owners are downgrading their choice of caliber and cartridge so they are less likely to be accused of "overpacking". They are switching to whatever the local police department issues for duty sidearms, under the rationale that if the police figure that works, you cannot be faulted for thinking the same way.

Now, I think the whole thing stinks. That's not murder, that's SOP for anyone sho's gone through defensive handgun training. And as for the 10mm pistol loaded with hollowpoints, sounds like a hog and 'yote gun to me and you have to have SOMETHING when you're out in the middle of the Arizona wilderness.


----------



## Mike Barham

The Fish shooting was somewhat questionable even without the 10mm/JHP issue. I lightly followed the case here in AZ, and it seemed (at least from the media) that the circumstances of the shooting were what got Mr. Fish convicted, not the gun and ammo he used.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

> Mr. Fish shot him three times in the chest with *this high powered gun*, hollow point bullets, and caused his death. That's murder.


High powered gun? Whoever said this obviously hasn't compared a 10mm handgun to a .30-06 or a 12-gauge. Yeah it's high powered compared to a .25ACP, but it's a handgun.


----------



## zhurdan

fivehourfrenzy said:


> High powered gun? Whoever said this obviously hasn't compared a 10mm handgun to a .30-06 or a 12-gauge. Yeah it's high powered compared to a .25ACP, but it's a handgun.


High powered cartridge... Whoever said this obviously hasn't compared the velocity of a .45 round from a 4" barrel compared to a 3" barrel, but it's TOTALLY NEGLIGIBLE.

(Oh come on FHF, you knew I had to do it hehehehe:anim_lol::anim_lol:

Zhur


----------



## TOF

:anim_lol:You are terrible Zhur, picking on FHF like that! :anim_lol: 

I use Win Ranger JHP in my .40 and 158 Grain SJSP's in my .357.

A bear tore a camp trailer open last night about 1/2 mile from where I sit so my current carry is the .357 with full power loads. It is on my side all day.

BG's and Bear better watch there step.

:smt1099


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

zhurdan said:


> High powered cartridge... Whoever said this obviously hasn't compared the velocity of a .45 round from a 4" barrel compared to a 3" barrel, but it's TOTALLY NEGLIGIBLE.
> 
> (Oh come on FHF, you knew I had to do it hehehehe:anim_lol::anim_lol:
> 
> Zhur


Lol. IMO, if you can't rip a human face past the point of recognition or put a 6" exit wound on a deer, it's not high powered.

But I still feel comfortable carrying my .45 with a *3" barrel and 200gr TAPs because they are good loads for short barrels.* :mrgreen:


----------



## wiseguy

in regards to the fish shooting, i read about that case in a magazine last week and it worried me enough that i stopped carrying my 10mm as my CCW and went back to my USPc .40. from what the mag said the jurors were mostly swayed by the prosecution harping on the 10mm/JHP fact. also, the dead guy's violent history and concealed weapon weren't allowed into court...i'm not sure who's worse....the thugs or the lawyers...


----------



## Ram Rod

Golden sabers or Gold Dots for me mainly. Funny thing about FMJ vs SP's or HP's----couple years ago I went looking for some 7.62x39 ammo at a local shop (this was deer hunting season mind you), and they were selling the boxes of FMJ's for more than the soft point loads. The FMJ displays were affixed with tags that read: "hunting ammo". Needless to say, I didn't say a word and bought several boxes of the soft point ammo. I went back later that week to get more. It's illegal here to hunt anything with FMJ no matter what. That same store is where I made my killer deal on my SLR-95 because they didn't know what they had. Sad to say the place changed ownership and they wised up a bit.


----------



## Mike Barham

There were no witnesses to the Fish shooting, and he shot a man not known to him to be armed. Regardless of what it says in the gun magazines, these facts were much more relevant than the particular gun Mr. Fish used.

It would not be difficult to explain to an Arizona jury why you were carrying a powerful pistol in the wilderness. Explaining why you shot an unarmed man after shooting his dogs is a little bit trickier, obviously.


----------



## OMSBH44

*What you carry makes a difference!*

There is a writer named Ayoob who has been saying for years that you 
should carry what the local police carry. However he has never been able
to show any instance where caliber and type of ammo made any difference
in an actual court case. Until now, I guess.

He did cite a case involving a suicide with target ammo, but I didn't think
much about that case due to the special circumstances of suicide.

Anyway, here we go again with another round of "Carry what the local police carry!"

I don't recall hearing of the "Fish" case. It must not have been reported
in the El Paso news and I don't recall reading about it in any magazine.
I guess I'll have to do a search and see what has been written.

The police here in El Paso all carry Glock .40's with hollow points. I don't
like Glocks and I don't like the .40 caliber, with or without hollow points.

It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I'll continue to carry
my revolver, thank you.


----------



## Mike Barham

OMSBH44 said:


> There is a writer named Ayoob who has been saying for years that you
> should carry what the local police carry. However he has never been able
> to show any instance where caliber and type of ammo made any difference
> in an actual court case. Until now, I guess.


I have taken a 40-hour course with Mas Ayoob and had dinner with him three or four times. While he says carrying what the cops carry isn't a bad idea, what he actually recommends is that you be able to articulate a good reason for carrying whatever you carry. If that's a Delta Elite, so be it.

A guy in the Seattle area blasted a would-be copkiller with a full magazine of Winchester 10mm (using full-charge Silvertips). No legal problems resulted.

Again, the major issues in the Fish case were the lack of witnesses and the fact that Mr. Fish's assailant was only armed with a screwdriver _that Fish didn't even know the guy had_. The gun stuff is very minor in comparison.


----------



## lt1jim

I may be a newbie here but FMJ because it will go through a car door or windshield doesn't sound too much like a DEFENSIVE situation to me.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

lt1jim said:


> I may be a newbie here but FMJ because it will go through a car door or windshield doesn't sound too much like a DEFENSIVE situation to me.


If you want something to penetrate hard materials, get the Corbon DPX. It's a hollowpoint, but technically can't be called a jacketed hollowpoint (JHP) because it doesn't have a jacket.


----------



## Mike Barham

lt1jim said:


> I may be a newbie here but FMJ because it will go through a car door or windshield doesn't sound too much like a DEFENSIVE situation to me.


You might have to fire through your own windshield in a fight - maybe you're at a drive-up ATM when attacked, for example. Someone might shoot at you from inside a car - drive-by shootings aren't exactly unheard of. Someone could try to run you over. Someone might try to yank you out of your car - see Reginald Denny.

None of these are common situations, but neither are they totally implausible.

As *fhf* mentioned, DPX works fine in these situations, rendering FMJ pretty irrelevant for defense.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> rendering FMJ pretty irrelevant for defense.


The only three circumstances I could think of that FMJ should be used for SD are:

1. It's the only ammunition that will reliable cycle in your gun. Solution: get a new gun.
2. You're using a small caliber like .25ACP or .32ACP and JHPs do not reliably penetrate. Solution: get a new gun.
3. Local laws prohibit hollowpoint ammunition. Solution: move.


----------



## babs

I guess it depends on the usage. Maybe for home defense you might want something not so penetrating but when it hits, it makes a mess without peppering the neighbors through the walls... A guy told me about this company.. States they do just that. I haven't read it enough to understand their loads but it's interesting....

http://www.rbcd.net/

.... 9mm at 60 grain, running 2010 fps ??!!?? Is this a misprint?
.... 90grain .45acp running 2036 fps.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Clay Block on Left: Shot with a 230 gr. Hydroshok 45 ACP. Clay Block on the Right: Shot with RBCD Performance Plus 90 gr. TFSP 45 ACP.










 Did a little further reading... "total fragmenting soft point".... something completely different I'm afraid I'm a total newb about, but I'm sure you seasoned guys might say I've totally derailed from "conventional" defensive ammo.
[/FONT]


----------



## sesquipedalian101

When I carry "open" around home, riding fence, et cetera, I like 300 gr. JHP in .44 mag. When I go to town or other "civilized" area and am carrying "concealed" I often choose a .22 mag. A good friend of mine, a weapons specialist for the Air Force, once explained to me why a .22 in FMJ is an excellent choice against several types of body armor -- he called it the "ice pick effect." Accordingly, I usually carry an H&R double action (w/transfer bar) containing either three rounds of Winchester FMJ 40 gr. (@1910 fps) or, when I can get it, RWS FMJ 40 gr. (@ 2020fps). The "alternate" three rounds are typically 40 gr. JHPs @ 1900fps or better. 

Does the .22 FMJ have good penetration? Well, when I am building (as opposed to "inspecting") fence, I often carry a .22 mag. -- though not the H&R. I like to use railroad ties for gate posts. They work fine; last a long time; but, they are pretty large at 6 inches by 8 inches for the "bail" at the top and bottom of the gate to work well. Ideally, the wire loops should be about 4 inches across to hook over the stays and still be easily manipulated without being too wide and ungainly. The solution, of course, is to drill holes. 

I used to carry a brace & a ¼" wood auger for this purpose. It takes 8 holes -- and about an hour of cranking -- to drill the two ends of the gate for the wire bails. roughly four feet of hand auguring through solid fir or, occasionally, oak. One day, as dusk was coming on, I wasn't looking forward to an hour's drilling followed by picking up after dark; so, making sure there were no unintended targets behind the posts, I tried "drilling" the holes with the .22 mag. The FMJ rounds punched eight neat holes through the two posts in less than five minutes. This counted both reloading time and scrounging around for FMJs to replace the JHP "alternate" rounds (JHPs don't exit the posts). The holes were, of course, less than the ¼ inch I'd been creating, but the #10 wire still went through just fine. Where safe, this is now my standard method of preparing gate posts. Once, I even recovered a bullet that hit the next post in line. After passing through nearly 10 inches of wood in the two posts, it was surprisingly un-deformed -- ice pick, indeed!

-101-


----------



## wiseguy

very true about the Fish case, but if I'm going to be attacked in court for the choice of caliber...i find it hard to explain why in a city environment i require that kind of punch...and with the guy smokin the would be cop-killer, what prosecutor would go after a case like that, it's a sure loss for them...the guy could have used a .500 mag


----------



## Mike Barham

wiseguy said:


> very true, but if I'm going to be attacked in court for the choice of caliber...i find it hard to explain why in a city environment i require that kind of punch...


If you don't have a good reason for choosing something out of the mainstream, then you probably shouldn't carry it. The less crap a DA can throw at you, the less chance he has of hitting you.

Just about any practical gun can be defended in court, though.


----------



## bluehandgun

i voted JHP... i find some of the reasoning for using FMJ interesting, especially about it penetrating a car door... the number one reason i prefer JHP is the reduced risk of collateral damage since the bullets are unlikely to go through a wall, or even thru the intended target and into another person. i am perfectly comfortable with my 9mm and decent 115 or 124 JHP ammo.


----------



## Mike Barham

bluehandgun said:


> the number one reason i prefer JHP is the reduced risk of collateral damage since the bullets are unlikely to go through a wall


JHPs are VERY likely to go through walls - multiple walls. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm


----------



## sesquipedalian101

Mike Barham said:


> JHPs are VERY likely to go through walls - multiple walls. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm


We used to live in a suburban area and, interestingly, this conversation parallels the discussion I had with each of my children as they became mature enough to be considered an "active part" of home defense.

Because, in a home invasion, there is not time to ponder all the the variables, we spent a lot of time up front, complete with "practice weapons," going through "shoot/don't shoot" and considering things like, "Where are the neighbor's houses? Where are your brother's rooms?" "You are short enough that any round you fire at someone's head, whether you miss or not, will likely carry several houses into the neighborhood." "If the person is not armed with a 'ranged' weapon, consider kneecaps, legs, and pelvis as targets because those will put the fellow on the floor where you have the choice of holding him or finishing him as befits the situation."

We had an interesting family discussion several years ago when a 15 year old resident of our nearest "mid-sized regional metropolitan area" (A.K.A. Spokane) came home after school and discovered a "broad daylight" burglary in progress. The young man grabbed his 12 gauge shotgun (it was available in his bedroom, not locked away from the "children") and drove the burglar from the residence. My boys, ranging from 12 to 17 at the time, were of the uniform opinion that that was okay; but, holding him for the police would have been better. There had been a string of burglaries in the kid's neighborhood; this fellow was likely responsible -- the string suddenly stopped! As it turned out, the burglar was (surprise) never caught -- which raises the specter of a possible return engagement. Apparently, he decided to move to greener pastures -- so I've often wondered how many unsolved burglaries, assaults, et cetera the fellow committed after being ejected from the Spokane home...

As one of my boys put it, "If the burglar were too 'light' to lie still on the floor until the officers arrived, one could always 'weight him down' with sufficient lead to cure the problem." Either way, waiting or weighting, no one would need to worry that he might come back next week to rob, injure, or kill a neighbor. (Remember, Spokane endured the terror of the "South Hill Rapist" -- 43 rapes from 1978 to 1981 that never would have happened if the first victim had been armed.)

Okay, so I wandered off topic as usual... Now we live where the nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away; bullet penetration though outside walls is less of a consideration than bullet effect upon an assailant -- though, ironically, where we live, the odds of a confrontation are somewhat higher than when we lived in a suburb adjoining the nearest mid-sized regional metropolitan area...

-101--


----------



## wiseguy

whereabouts in the god forsaken eastern part of my wonderful state do you reside? And is there a .308 in your home defense plan? :smt033


----------



## sesquipedalian101

wiseguy said:


> whereabouts in the god forsaken eastern part of my wonderful state do you reside? And is there a .308 in your home defense plan? :smt033


We're about 30 miles North of Spokane; and, no I don't have a .308 -- I am more an '06 kinda guy. Not that I have anything personal against a .308; I just cannot afford to purchase one because they are a bit spendy for my budget to start with and, generally speaking, firearms cost me at least twice as much as most people have to pay.

For normal outdoor stuff, hunting et cetera, the .30-30 is my favorite; though, I have a .44 that is pretty neat for heavy brush or other "close range" environments...

...God forsaken? Maybe... I like it though -- we're less than an hour away from skiiing, fishing, scuba diving, mountain climbing, desert, forest, theater, opera, fine food, fast food, places crowded enough to make my skin crawl, and places where you can go weeks at a time w/o seeing another human being... Take your pick -- all are within 60 to 70 miles... Oh, and both the "target" range and hunting preserve (mostly white tail) is in my "backyard" (just make sure the neighbor is not cultivating his field).

-101-


----------



## wiseguy

i never looked at it that way...you almost make it sound as nice as the western half :smt033


----------



## Clyde

JHP :smt023


----------



## toopercentmlk

My HD loads will be .40s&w 155gr. Winchester Rangers but used to be .230gr. Federal Hydr-shoks.


----------



## cupsz71

FEDERAL HYDRA-SHOK 9mm 135grn JHP in both my XD9 CCW and my HD Beretta 92FS.:smt023

I use mostly WWB ammo for most target practice.

_Full expansion of a JHP w/3" barrel in 9mm being "effective" can be debated due to reduced muzzel velocity...better w/the full size 5" Beretta. That being said, I tend not to buy/store multiple brands of ammo....especially HD stuff. I find a brand that is acceptable/available for me, and use it._

ahhh...neeed more coffee......


----------



## Willy D

From the stuff I have read from Ayoob, he stands by the fact that if you are attacked you have the right to use deadly force to end the attack, but the big IF is that your life was truly in danger...He used a good example...

Lets say that you live fairly close to an area that is high crime, lots of shooting and murders going on....You and every person withing 100 miles know that it is dangerous and you should absolutely not go there...if you had no gun you would not go there. Prior to owning a gun you did not go there...you went and bought yourself a gun and found yourself there, you got assaulted and ended up shooting and killing a gang member...The judge and jury are gonna have a field day with that...They are gonna say that you bought a gun and then you went looking to kill someone and say it was justified.....Moral of the story??? Don't do stupid stuff just because you now have a gun...and if you buy a big powerful handgun it is gonna look even more like you were looking to kill..

Willy


----------



## Mike Barham

Never go anywhere _with_ a gun you wouldn't go _without_ a gun.


----------



## Teuthis

Well you have me outvoted but not convinced. haha. For the 45 ACP I still prefer ball. I can also see your former instructor's preference for 9mm ball. It is a matter of one's experience and comfort.


----------



## Natureboypkr

Some say FMJ fopr the 45ACP are suffcient enough for defensive because they *may* not over penetrate due to the size of the bullet. In my opinion I think Double Tap 45 ammo would b a good round to have, JHP of course.


----------



## Mike Barham

Natureboypkr said:


> Some say FMJ fopr the 45ACP are suffcient enough for defensive because they *may* not over penetrate due to the size of the bullet.


According to Ayoob, FMJ .45ACP perforates human targets seven times in ten. It has 27+ inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin.


----------



## Natureboypkr

Mike Barham said:


> According to Ayoob, FMJ .45ACP perforates human targets seven times in ten. It has 27+ inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin.


Dont know if you saw the "may" in bold letters to indicate the info is not 100%. We have to take in consideration the ballistic gelatin does not mimick the human body 100%, due to the fact that you have to consider different types of tissue in the body with different densities. Anher thing that should be considered is the bones in the body.


----------



## Mike Barham

Natureboypkr said:


> Dont know if you saw the "may" in bold letters to indicate the info is not 100%. We have to take in consideration the ballistic gelatin does not mimick the human body 100%, due to the fact that you have to consider different types of tissue in the body with different densities. Anher thing that should be considered is the bones in the body.


We recently covered this in the ".45 ACP" thread begun by *Teuthis*. Correctly calibrated 10% gelatin actually does mimic penetration in human bodies reasonably well. This has been confirmed in actual shootings by San Diego PD among others. 10% gelatin attempts to replicate the totality of the human body, with its various densities.

Again, Ayoob states flatly that .45 hardball perforates human targets 70% of the time *in actual shootings*, of which he has studied a great many. It goes through and through seven times in ten in real, living bodies. This might be okay for a battlefield (though perhaps not a "battlespace"), but is inappropriate for use in American civil society.


----------



## Natureboypkr

Mike Barham said:


> We recently covered this in the ".45 ACP" thread begun by *Teuthis*. Correctly calibrated 10% gelatin actually does mimic penetration in human bodies reasonably well. This has been confirmed in actual shootings by San Diego PD among others. 10% gelatin attempts to replicate the totality of the human body, with its various densities.
> 
> Again, Ayoob states flatly that .45 hardball perforates human targets 70% of the time *in actual shootings*, of which he has studied a great many. It goes through and through seven times in ten in real, living bodies. This might be okay for a battlefield (though perhaps not a "battlespace"), but is inappropriate for use in American civil society.


You're right I just got finished talking to a few of my fellow USMC comrades. I just got used to having ball ammo in my issued pistol.


----------



## sesquipedalian101

Mike Barham said:


> *snip* .45 hardball perforates human targets 70% of the time *in actual shootings* *snip* This might be okay for a battlefield (though perhaps not a "battlespace"), but is inappropriate for use in American civil society.


Just so we're clear here: Are we talking "inappropriate" because of potential collateral damage to unintended downrange targets; or, because there is something "unethical" about punching a hole clear though the bad guy as opposed to stopping somewhere inside of a major organ?

(If the latter, does such ethical consideration apply to an epee, foil, or saber as well? :duel: )

IMWTK
-101-


----------



## Wyatt

I'm sure inappropriate relates to potential harm to innocents from a though and through.


----------



## Mike Barham

I want to inflict maximum damage on the opponent. I do not want to inflict any damage on anyone else. A bullet that exits has much greater chance of harming bystanders than one that stays inside the opponent. If .45 hardball does indeed exit 70% of the time, as Ayoob states, I consider that inappropriate for a civil environment where bystanders can reasonably be expected to be present.


----------



## hideit

well
i think this thread is closed

looking at the votes
LOL


----------



## JJ

> Sure, a .45ACP FMJ will still cause as much or more damage than about any expanding 9mm, but why stop there? Make the biggest hole you can...a quality SD round in .45ACP, when fully expanded, will reach diameters of at least .600", some of them even pushing .750"+. That's as wide as a 12-gauge slug.


im pretty sure ive heard of cases where 147gr 9mm expanded to .70~.

doubt a .45 FMJ (that likely passes through the BG) is going to cause as much damage.


----------



## wahsben

Usually JHP but if out in the wilderness where I might need more penetration for 4 legged critters I would probably load FMJ.


----------



## stormbringerr

when i carry my 40cal. XD in the winter,i use federal jhp 165gr. hst....an excellent defensive round. :smt083


----------



## toolboxluis

all of my guns have hollow point 
9 mm xst 147 gr 
9 mm bonded 126 gr 
.45 federal hydro shock 230 gr 
.22 federal 40gr


----------



## Growler67

Range: ball (FMJ)

HD/SD: 230gr Federal HydraShok in .45, 147gr Federal HydraShok in 9mm

I usually go with WWB for range purposes but make a point to include some HD/SD loads during a session. UMC is okay too, though a bit dirtier afterwards. Having known someone who was killed by an ND with a .22 through a wall, leaves me believing that placement trumps the caliber debate. I always keep in mind that even a puny .22 could drop me when I carry. Most times it's my P228 as I'm the most proficient with it.


----------



## lostsoul

Revolver said:


> I don't like to use jacketed bullets if I don't need to. I also don't buy factory stuff to carry.


Being a Glock-a-holic,I prefer the jacketed ammo.Easier clean up.


----------



## revolvers&w

Winchester Rangers


----------



## knoxrocks222

i carry federal hydra shocks at work because its against the law to carry round nose fmj's cause if i have to shoot someone i want the bullet to expand and stop rather than going straight through and hitting someone else..................i think the only thing a fmj slug is good in is a .45, if i had to translate.....it would be like a bowling ball being thrown at u somewhat fast as opposed to a golf ball being shot at u really fast, ur gonna know when u get a .45 slug to the chest as oposed to a .380 or a 9mm<<these 2 require jhp's, just my thoughts

knox


----------



## 3/325

gmaske said:


> Tools are neither offensive nor defensive. It's all in how you use them that matters.


That's the sum of it right there. Imagine trying to make a distinction between an "offensive" knife and a "defensive" knife. That salesman is a moron.


----------



## curmudgeon8

JHP for HD and SD, but FMJ in spare carry magazine in case the JHPs malfunction.
FMJ for practice, plus a few JHPs to monitor reliability.
(Gotta try to stay on top of all the "Murphy" stuff.)


----------



## DevilsJohnson

I guess being I never thought about being the bad guy I never actually thought about a round being an offensive round. The idea of poking a hole all the way through does not appeal to me at all though. That seems a little more offensive. That being said I still think a good JHP round just makes the best sense. I reload a HP/JHP and that's for the most part what I will carry and practice with. It just always made more sense to me to use the same ammo for both. That way the gun should always act the same.


----------



## TOF

Defense or offense (defensive offense if invaded) I prefer HP's. Winchester Rangers till I run out then whatever is handy.

My intent is for the bullet to stop the thing I am aiming at. Whatever is behind it will get a bullet, if warranted, as soon as number 1 falls.

If the job takes more than 30 rounds (2 mags) my handloads are just effective as the Rangers. That's a bunch of bad guys! :numbchuck:


----------



## kg333

Looking at the original post, the salesman said he carried Black Talons. According to Wikipedia, these _are_ hollow-points...I wonder what his deal was with thinking it was odd to carry other JHPs.

KG


----------



## JeffWard

knoxrocks222 said:


> i carry federal hydra shocks at work because its against the law to carry round nose fmj's cause if i have to shoot someone i want the bullet to expand and stop rather than going straight through and hitting someone else..................i think the only thing a fmj slug is good in is a .45, if i had to translate.....it would be like a bowling ball being thrown at u somewhat fast as opposed to a golf ball being shot at u really fast, ur gonna know when u get a .45 slug to the chest as oposed to a .380 or a 9mm<<these 2 require jhp's, just my thoughts
> 
> knox


Have you ever been hit by a golf ball???

Somehow, I think "most" people are "gonna know" they've been hit in the chest by a 9mm, or .380... Caliber in a handgun is irrelevant... this has been beaten to death. NO carry-caliber handgun will knock you down. A .50BMG to the chest will not knock you over!!! A 9mm delivers MORE energy to target on average than a 45ACP... (assuming it stays in the body)

I'd much rather a bowling ball be thrown at be than a golf ball be hit at me. But like a 9mm or a 45 ACP. Both are going to hurt like hell. Both are hopefully going to take the fight out of an opponent, and NEITHER will kill you unless it hit a vital organ. A "golf ball" to the temple is much more deadly than a bowling ball... Ball or bullet, it's all about shot placement...

JW


----------



## Ptarmigan

JeffWard said:


> Have you ever been hit by a golf ball???
> 
> Somehow, I think "most" people are "gonna know" they've been hit in the chest by a 9mm, or .380... Caliber in a handgun is irrelevant... this has been beaten to death. NO carry-caliber handgun will knock you down. A .50BMG to the chest will not knock you over!!! A 9mm delivers MORE energy to target on average than a 45ACP... (assuming it stays in the body)
> 
> I'd much rather a bowling ball be thrown at be than a golf ball be hit at me. But like a 9mm or a 45 ACP. Both are going to hurt like hell. Both are hopefully going to take the fight out of an opponent, and NEITHER will kill you unless it hit a vital organ. A "golf ball" to the temple is much more deadly than a bowling ball... Ball or bullet, it's all about shot placement...


+1 Good post, Jeff. :smt023


----------



## JagFarlane

knoxrocks222 said:


> i carry federal hydra shocks at work because its against the law to carry round nose fmj's cause if i have to shoot someone i want the bullet to expand and stop rather than going straight through and hitting someone else..................i think the only thing a fmj slug is good in is a .45, if i had to translate.....it would be like a bowling ball being thrown at u somewhat fast as opposed to a golf ball being shot at u really fast, ur gonna know when u get a .45 slug to the chest as oposed to a .380 or a 9mm<<these 2 require jhp's, just my thoughts
> 
> knox


Ok, lets discuss this lightly in terms of physics and biology. Why? Because when you get down to reasons, these are what bullet makers use to determine rounds.

First, basic concept. There are essentially two types of energy, static energy and dynamic energy. 
Static energy is stored energy, while an object is at rest. For example, a golf ball sitting on a tee has static energy, also known as potential energy. There is a potential for the energy to cause said golf ball to move, but not enough for it to move on its own.
Dynamic energy is energy at motion. Say, a golf club swinging towards the golf ball. This is transferred energy, in this case, the energy you are transferring into the golf club from your own motions.
When the golf club hits the golf ball, it will transfer energy from itself into the golf ball, causing the golf ball to move off the tee and fly the couple of hundred yards that it does. [there is, of course, much more into this involving friction, etc etc]

Now, you have JHPs and FMJ rounds. And now we get into friction and biology. Ever look at rounds hitting ballistics gel in slow motion? Imaging that will help with this.

For simplicity, we'll imagine both rounds are 147gr 9mm rounds. Both will leave the gun at the same speed. And we'll ignore air friction and such for the time being. And we will presume the rounds both hit in the chest area, and don't hit ribs.

As the FMJ round hits someone, there will be the initial shock, as dynamic energy is passed into the person. The bullet will pass through, causing some damage, and passing on some energy. However, because of its design, it will remain, for the most part, intact. And eventually it will exit the person, at a slower speed due to having retained the vast majority of its mass.

As the JHP enters the person, there is the initial shock. However, the JHP mushrooms, it opens up more surface area for the transfer of energy, as well as more area to wound. A good JHP, however, opens up only so much, because it needs to retain some amount of mass in order to retain forwards motion through the body. However, while its inside, its causing more damage and pushing a body a little bit harder backwards due to the extra energy transfer. As it leaves the body, it will be slower [which is better to minimize collateral damage] and leave a much larger exit wound [which you can compare the two with video of ballistics gel].

A larger JHP causes more damage, and by default, retains more energy. This is why a .45 is generally considered superior in "knockdown power". However, one also must keep in mind other variables. A potential target generally will have adrenaline flowing, which can override some of the effects of being shot. They also could be drunk or under the influence of illegal drugs. People like that can, and have been known, to take several rounds and still not go down. This is where the 9mm is superior, in that a 9mm can carry more rounds.

But when you really boil it down between the two, it comes down to confidence in the ability to hit the target. With the 9mm you have more rounds available, in case you miss, and less recoil allowing for a faster followup shot. However, with the .45 you have more "knockdown power" and someone whom has practiced quite a bit with one, can shoot followup shots accurately in almost the same amount of time as someone with a 9mm.

So, in brief, you are better off to always use JHPs, more damage and more energy delivered to the target. As for the 9mm vs .380 vs .40 vs .45 discussion, it comes down to the abilities of the shooter really. Remember that even a .22 in the right hands is downright deadly. If you have a shooter who has taken the time to practice with their weapon and can reliably hit the target every time, then it doesn't matter the caliber used. Preferences come into play there, which ever the shooter prefers to use. Thats why there is no definitive one defensive caliber, and why you're offered so many choices. It comes to your choice. If you're going to be more comfortable with a 9mm then go with the 9mm by all means. If you're more comfortable with a .45 then go with that.

ETA: One last thing, generally most premium brands do the same thing. They mushroom to an extent and retain a good chunk of mass. Beyond that, its personal preference and the preference of the firearm. Not all guns will like Federal, not all will like Hornady, some may prefer Winchester, some may prefer Remington.


----------



## drummin man 627

*My Personal Defense Loads*

In my 9mm, I have Speer GDHP. In the .380 acp, I have Speer GDHP. The reasons I choose these are: #1) Other companies seem to think that this projectile is good enough to load in their P.D. offerings, ie reliable expansion. (They're the experts, not me.) and: #2) They have been 100% reliable in practice sessions. (Most important to me).
In the .32 acp I have Fiocchi APHP, only because they are the "warmest" load that I have found locally. I also have Fiocchi FMJ, also very "warm". The concensis opinion of the experts about the .32 is that because of the smaller wound channel, it requires deep enough penetration to break bone, or get to the spinal column.
In the .357 mag, I'm back to Cor-bon 110 gr JHP.


----------



## hbski

9mm JHP to minimize the potential of pass through and collateral damage.

There were several references to the Harold Fish case in this thread

After reading the MSNBC story, I'd have to say Fish got a raw deal. 
He didn't shoot the dogs involved, only a warning shot, and the guy he shot has a very checkered history of anti-social and violent behavior. From the story it looked like the guy was down on his luck, living in the woods, and related better to animals than to humans. Then figure in the guy believing that one of the dogs was shot by Fish, and I certainly could see him going crazy in Fish's direction real quick. Unfortunately it seems most of the guys past was ruled inadmissible.

DJ


----------



## amourandcris

In my opinion you don't need to completely destroy vital organs, just hit them. And chances are the FMJ's are gonna have it a lot easier reaching those organs then a Hollow point that could expand too rapidly and not reach the organs.

Especially if your BG is shooting from the inside of a car or something. Even if he's not, FMJ's behavior is a lot more predictable than that of a JHP. And thus more reliable(in my eyes).

I personally would rather see my rounds reaching those vital organs, even if they don't blow them into a billion pieces, then have hp's making huge holes and bouncing off of ribs.

I'd carry .45 ACP FMJ's

But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Big_Guns

*Defense Ammo*

Speer Gold Dot in .357's, #3 buckshot in 20 gauges, #1 buckshot in 12 gauge.


----------



## Growler67

amourandcris said:


> In my opinion you don't need to completely destroy vital organs, just hit them. And chances are the FMJ's are gonna have it a lot easier reaching those organs then a Hollow point that could expand too rapidly and not reach the organs.
> 
> Especially if your BG is shooting from the inside of a car or something. Even if he's not, FMJ's behavior is a lot more predictable than that of a JHP. And thus more reliable(in my eyes).
> 
> I personally would rather see my rounds reaching those vital organs, even if they don't blow them into a billion pieces, then have hp's making huge holes and bouncing off of ribs.
> 
> I'd carry .45 ACP FMJ's
> 
> But that's just my opinion.


Seen the recall on THESE?


----------



## dondavis3

I've been taught to use JHP (if your gun will feed dependably with them) and to minimize the potential of pass through (both the body and the walls) thereby creating collateral damage.

:smt1099


----------



## tateb24

FMJ mixed with JHP in my magazines, helps for many types of self defense situations.


----------



## zhurdan

tateb24 said:


> FMJ mixed with JHP in my magazines, helps for many types of self defense situations.


... and you know which one is on tap for each situation how exactly? It's far better to have the same type of ammo that you know works reliably rather than have a mixed bag of possible malfunctions in the magazine. If it ever comes down to it, I'd rather have a single proven bullet design on tap.


----------



## Atroxus

Tscott said:


> The guy who taught my concealed carry class said he preferred FMJ for self defense in 9mm. His reasoning was all about penetration, he stated that he could shoot through a car door or similar with a 9mm FMJ where a 9mm JHP may disintegrate in a similar situation. I can see his reasoning. Not sure I agree, but hey thats why it's an opinion. I have carried with both and surely do not feel under gunned with FMJ in the tube, but I must admit I prefer a good quality JHP.
> 
> Tom


I could see needing rounds that will penetrate a car door for someone in law enforcement where it is fairly reasonable to expect that they might have to fire through one. I can't think of any "home defense" or "self defense" situations off the top of my head though where I would need to shoot through a car door. Window, or windshield maybe, but door...not so much.

I also prefer JHP though for SD/HD. I use FMJ for target shooting though cause those speer gold dots are expensive.


----------



## ROBINPA

I carry the exact same ammo that i practice with , it may not destroy tissue like some of the personal defence ammo but it feeds reliably 100 % of the the time and is very accurate out of my handgun. As for collateral damage i live alone out n the boonies , if it goes thru a wall it might hit a oak tree.:smt033


----------



## 45man

When talking about JHP vs FMJ Has anyone considered the percentage of misses in that?

Now if you search that you will see that misses are a very high percent of hitting some one or something beyond your target. I searched that long ago so I won't again but when under stress you will miss,

Now do you think in all reality what would you rather miss with JHP or FMJ? Also at that point will it matter which one you are using FMJ or JHP's? Read some police Stats and they miss more then hit and they are most likely trained to respond under stress then the common person.

And I do remember that the % of misses is a lot higher then thru and thru shots.

For the most part wether you use FMJ or a good Hollow point practice is the key, because under a stressful SD shoot you aim will dramatically decrease! 

Really a thru and thru shot is the least of my worries I've been involved in different law enforcement positions for many years before retiring and the officers I trained would miss from the stress I put them under.


----------



## omegajb

JHP for home defense, I live in a townhouse and want to minimize going through a wall and hurting a neighbor.


----------



## nUgZ

JHP all the way! I live in a condo, so it's the responsible thing to do.


----------



## copyoftheoriginal

*you might be overlooking something*

I shoot both hollow points and FMJ rounds. I've never had a hollow point fail to feed properly,but there's a first time for everything. In my opinion, I would have problems with a hollow point before I would with a full metal jacket.
So, in a defensive position, when it's ABSOLUTELY GOTTA WORK.

I choose FMJ


----------



## Spazz

10mm 230gr Equalizer from DT :smt033


----------



## Dragonsblood

*JHP All Day*

I prefer to use JHP. The last thing I want is a BG to keep going because the ball ammo struck and he didn't feel anything. I have Gold Dot and HST loaded in my Glock and Taurus.


----------



## Barryd

JHP for me.


----------



## gunsite

wiseguy said:


> I had an odd conversation today while picking up my HK45. Salesman asked if I wanted to buy ammo...naturally I said yes. He went for the ball ammo and I told him I had plenty of that but I required more hollow points, I used the term "defensive load". The guy gave me a funny look and told me that FMJs were defense loads and that JHPs were considered "offensive"...this is contrary to pretty much everything I've been told. I see where the guy is coming from though. I went ahead and bought some 230gr JHP from Double Tap anyway :smt033 but it leads me to my poll...what do you all load out with for carry/home defense?
> 
> PS....I asked the guy what he carried and he replied "Black Talons"..... :smt082


FMJ do the most damage, starting with making two holes, one in and one out. Two shots... FOUR HOLES, more bleeding.

Many Police Dept use Hollow points because it's a safer round and less lethal, it penetrates and stays in the body... one hole, less chance of bleeding out, and/or having the round exiting, and hitting someone else.

Hollow points are a great as home defense round, first of all it won't penetrate walls and hit anyone else, and for stopping your intruder.

BUT... lets say your intruder has on a winter coat, or layers of clothes, or is a big/fat/heavy/thick individual, WILL YOUR HOLLOW POINT PENETRATE... enough.

I use Heavy FMJ... LFP 220gr 10mm and 230gr 45 cal FMJ made by DOUBLE TAP AMMO.

Full Metal Jackets go through concealment, hollow points stop.


----------



## niadhf

Hornady XTP or FTX (when available) if they feed reliably in the gun. Federal Hydro shock in the Keltec (P-11) and 158 lswc in the 38/357

AS for the above, there are many studies about penetration, through materials (clothing and wall board etc) and expansion verses through and through. Makes for good reading on a long winter night. I recommend doing some searching.


----------



## falchunt

*Really?*



gunsite said:


> *FMJ do the most damage*, starting with making two holes, one in and one out. Two shots... FOUR HOLES, more bleeding.
> 
> Many Police Dept use Hollow points because it's a safer round and less lethal, it penetrates and stays in the body... one hole, less chance of bleeding out, and/or having the round exiting, and hitting someone else.
> 
> Hollow points are a great as home defense round, first of all it won't penetrate walls and hit anyone else, and for stopping your intruder.
> 
> BUT... lets say your intruder has on a winter coat, or layers of clothes, or is a big/fat/heavy/thick individual, WILL YOUR HOLLOW POINT PENETRATE... enough.
> 
> I use Heavy FMJ... LFP 220gr 10mm and 230gr 45 cal FMJ made by DOUBLE TAP AMMO.
> 
> Full Metal Jackets go through concealment, hollow points stop.


Go Shoot a pumpkin with a FMJ...and then another with a JHP, and let us know which one does "more damage". There is no doubt that JHP cartridges do *more damage*.


----------



## algore is a fatwoman

I used to fill my .357's cylinder with jelly beans to avoid lawsuits. I switched to the new hornady critical defense in .40, 9mm, .357, .38 and I'm still trying to track down hornaday CD for .380. I really wish hornady made critical defense in .32 magnum. Now that I think about it, I wish A N Y B O D Y would manufacture HP .32 mag ammo!


----------



## Freedom1911

Dont understand the sales mans thinking.

To me ball ammo is range ammo and defensive rounds.
Hollow point is defensive ammo.

Looking at the definition of the two words.

Defensive. 
Main Entry: 1de·fen·sive
Pronunciation: \di-ˈfen(t)-siv, ˈdē-ˌ\
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century

1 : serving to defend or protect <defensive fortifications>
2 a : devoted to resisting or preventing aggression or attack <defensive behavior> b : of or relating to the attempt to keep an opponent from scoring in a game or contest <a player with good defensive skills>
3 a : valuable in defensive play <a defensive card in bridge> b : designed to keep an opponent from being the highest bidder <a defensive bid>

Offensive. 
Main Entry: 1of·fen·sive
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈfen(t)-siv, especially for 1 ˈä-ˌfen(t)-, ˈȯ-\
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1564

1 a : making attack : aggressive b : of, relating to, or designed for attack <offensive weapons> c : of or relating to an attempt to score in a game or contest; also : of or relating to a team in possession of the ball or puck
2 : giving painful or unpleasant sensations : nauseous, obnoxious <an offensive odor>
3 : causing displeasure or resentment <offensive remarks>

It sounds like the sales man is saying that JHP ammo is for going out and aggressively going after people with the intent to harm.
Where guns and people are concerned, (with the exception of war, and I think in war they always use ball/jacketed ammo) any and all ammo should be viewed as defensive.


----------



## Jiu-jitsu fighter

By ball ammo are you talking about the ammo the ball at the end. Looks like a hollowpoint with a ball put in the hole? I am curious as to how this ammo is. I think it is called Powerball.


----------



## kg333

Jiu-jitsu fighter said:


> By ball ammo are you talking about the ammo the ball at the end. Looks like a hollowpoint with a ball put in the hole? I am curious as to how this ammo is. I think it is called Powerball.


I believe they meant FMJ ammo, but I looked up the kind you're talking about...interesting idea. Looks like that's exactly what it is...a JHP with some kind of filler put in the end, which is supposed to help it feed better than a regular JHP round.

KG


----------



## Jiu-jitsu fighter

Yeah more reliable feed, and supposedly the ball pushes inside and helps on the expansion.


----------



## cougartex

Jhp


----------



## Gunners_Mate

Jiu-jitsu fighter said:


> By ball ammo are you talking about the ammo the ball at the end. Looks like a hollowpoint with a ball put in the hole? I am curious as to how this ammo is. I think it is called Powerball.


Ball ammo is simply FMJ. I dunno where the term is derived but nearly all military ammunition is referred to as Ball, although nearly everyone on this site would say FMJ.

the military uses several different kinds of ammo, none of which is a hollow point. armor piercing, incendiary, tracer, point detonating, some of them get pretty crazy. nearly all are fmj with something special in the core as opposed to lead. if it's just lead, then it's basic Ball ammo.

the ammo your talking about with a ball in the hollow point is something else entirely, however I am unfamiliar with it and therefor cannot clarify.


----------



## 1911/W_HotSauce

Cor-Bon DPX 45 ACP +P 185 Grain Barnes XPB Hollow Points


----------



## nailer

Mr. Fish was released from prison in July of 2009. His conviction was reversed in an appeal. It seems the judge told the jury that Mr. Fish had to prove it was self defense and that was wrong. It was the prosecutor's job to prove it wasn't self defense. Accordingly, the weapon or means of self defense isn't as important as the life threatening situation. Therefore, JHP, FMJ, baseball bat, TNT, rock, etc., should not be the determining factor for guilt or innocence. The determining factor is "was a life in danger". The prosecutor must prove that a life was not in danger. I think I said it correctly.


----------



## BowhuntnHoosier

With family members in the house I prefer HP's. Besides I believe more in tissue damage(heart) than exit hole.:mrgreen:


----------



## bertanicholson

Hi this is Bertan.
Actually i don't know what is FMJ and JHP? So i can't discuss on this topic. But i want to about these topic, so please share the information about these topic.


Thankyou


----------



## Reddog1

With regard to the Fish case, would the DA then make the argument that if he had used a, say, .22mag to protect himself that he would have been guilty of NOT using a large enough caliber to protect himself? What if he had just injured the bad guy? Just wondered.

I have several handguns that I keep available in the house. One is a .44 mag with 240 grain HP's. The others are .45 ACP's with HP's. I don't plan to do a lot of thinking if my home is ever invaded by bad guys. Chances are most people are going to be rattled if alarmed in the night anyway and are prone to empty the mag/cylinder in the general direction of the bad guy. I think there is way too much thinking done with regard to "perfect calibers and ammo types" these days. If you are a reasonable shot the bad guy will go down and will not be getting up. Moral here is accuracy wins over perfect ammo normally.


----------



## borgranta

*Fmj vs jhp*



bertanicholson said:


> Hi this is Bertan.
> Actually i don't know what is FMJ and JHP? So i can't discuss on this topic. But i want to about these topic, so please share the information about these topic.
> 
> Thankyou


FMJ short for Full Metal Jacket is just simply a solid bullet the most common is made out of a copper covered lead bullet.

HP short for Hollow Point has an exposed lead core in the tip of the bullet but expands unpredictably but is much safer by releasing more of the energy into the threat than FMJs and does not overpenetrate as much.

JHP short for Jacketed Hollow Point are like HPs except the lead is bonded to the copper jacket which cause the expansion to be perfectly uniform and dependable and some JHPs such as Hornady critical defense and zombie max among others have a polymer tip to prevent heavy clothing from clogging the hole and disrupting proper expansion.


----------



## borgranta

Reddog1 said:


> With regard to the Fish case, would the DA then make the argument that if he had used a, say, .22mag to protect himself that he would have been guilty of NOT using a large enough caliber to protect himself? What if he had just injured the bad guy? Just wondered.
> 
> I have several handguns that I keep available in the house. One is a .44 mag with 240 grain HP's. The others are .45 ACP's with HP's. I don't plan to do a lot of thinking if my home is ever invaded by bad guys. Chances are most people are going to be rattled if alarmed in the night anyway and are prone to empty the mag/cylinder in the general direction of the bad guy. I think there is way too much thinking done with regard to "perfect calibers and ammo types" these days. If you are a reasonable shot the bad guy will go down and will not be getting up. Moral here is accuracy wins over perfect ammo normally.


Fish should carry a Desert Eagle chambered in 50 AE for protection from wild animals while hiking and/or camping and if he had to use it for defense he can honestly say it is for protection against hostile animals.


----------

