# do you have preference for the 9mm or .40/.45... and why?



## jason0007 (Nov 21, 2006)

is 9mm considered a good self defense caliber? i know the larger caliber rounds .40/.45 can and will do more damage to the BG, but how does the 9mm fare? all the pistols i own are 9mm..and it seems like i always lean toward the 9mm for future buys but DO I NEED AT LEAST ONE PISTOL THAT IS .40/.45???? THOUGHTS?

-----------

beretta 92fs 9mm
beretta px4 9mm
walther p99 9mm
glock 19 9mm


----------



## madmag (Jan 29, 2007)

I guess more (tons) have been written about the 9mm Vs. .45 than any other pistol subject in history. But it is still a valid question. I don't have .40 but do have 9mm & .45. I use both with the same confidence. I won't go into the ballistics, but you just don't get a guarantee with either round. Way back eons ago when I was in the Army they issued a verbal guarantee with the M1 rifle. They said they would guarantee if you shot at the BG and he was still standing...then they would guarantee you missed! Even that is an exaggeration, not even a 30-06 with 180g @ about 3000ft lbs. will always do the job....so a .45 & 9mm @ about 350-400 lbs. must depend on shot placement. Both work. On my own testing my 9mm normally penetrates better than my .45, but enough penetration is all you need.

I know one difference. It is easier for me to load my fat .45 rounds into my mags than the skinny 9mm rounds!

You are OK with the 9mm, but if you like having lots of guns then you might as well add a .40 & .45. The .45 is always fun to shoot...for me anyway.

I am going to add one thought. I normally don't weigh in on the 9 Vs 45 issue because of so many posts. But I have come to my own personal conclusion through the years by looking at results. Not the FBI one stop caliber results, but actual accounts of incidents related in reliable gun books & TV video. For me a picture emerges. If the BG is really hit in a vital area (head/heart) then most cases he is down instantly. Video about 2 years old of (I think Boston) Cop shooting a BG with a knife. The BG dropped like a sack of potatoes....not knocked back like the movies. He was dead. They did not say but you could see he was not hit in the head..so I assume hit in the heart. But these kinds of incidents are the exception. Usually the BG gets shot more than once and does not die...or at least continues fighting for some period. It is also clear that if you hit the BG in center of mass with any good caliber that he will be in trouble in short time. If he is running he will finally stop. If he is attacking he may stop while he is engaging you. Anyway, it says to me if (your life is in danger)....shot more than once and get as many critical area hits as possible...no matter the caliber. 

Now, I think I will go another decade (I promise) without weighing in on the 9mm vs .45 issue.


----------



## jason0007 (Nov 21, 2006)

thanks for that...at the minimum the 9mm will stop the bg in his tracks on some level, and gives you enough time to hit him a few more times if need be...


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

You have to decide which for yourself but I pick the 45 for me.


----------



## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

tony pasley said:


> You have to decide which for yourself but I pick the 45 for me.


YUP


----------



## stetson (May 5, 2006)

I don't care what cailber you pick it's called shot placement !


----------



## -gunut- (May 8, 2006)

The 9mm is a fine defense round. It all comes down to shot placement. I prefer the .45 because regardless of where I hit, it is going to make a bigger hole. I am more accurate with a .45 also. I think the statistics for one shot stop are 87% for 9mm, 93% for .45, and 96% for .40 (Though .45 has more knockdown power).


----------



## scooter (May 9, 2006)

My Fathers old saying
would you rather get hit by a guy on a 10speed bike or a frieght train if you were a bad guy??
I choose the frieght train for self defense! .45acp !


----------



## kansas_plainsman (May 9, 2006)

Half my carry guns are .40, the other half .45 and one 9mm...

... I figure it this way: .40 is nearly as powerful as a .45, and cheaper to practice with. The odds of having to use my carry gun in an actual encounter are pretty small (for me, anyway). The 9mm, while lighter than the other two, is still pretty potent. The odds that I'll be carrying it when the flag goes up are approaching zero, and even then, it's likely to do the job - particularly as the lighter recoil (and the quality of my 9mm) AND the fact that I'm pretty accurate with that 9mm, well, I'm not worried.

But the best argument is that I live in a rural area, know the area and where not to be and when not to be there; my guns are mostly for target shooting.

Then again, I live on a ranch, so skunks and other such hazards are a bigger potential threat.


----------



## hberttmank (May 5, 2006)

You need at least one pistol in 45acp.


----------



## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Early in my shooting career, I sold all my 9's and went to .45's, based on a presentation/slide show by the late law enforcement legend, Bruce Nelson. He related reports, with some morgue pictures, about police officers who had been killed by people that they had shot with their 9mm's, WITH GOOD PLACEMENT. I remember one fellow had been shot 33 times, his body looked like Swiss cheese. Granted, some of the hits were peripheral, but many were not, yet the guy still killed the two cops before bleeding out.

OK, maybe that was a statistical aberration. Except, Nelson showed documented case after case after case of guys who had been shot with 9mm's, WITH GOOD PLACEMENT, and had kept on fighting. I remember one, the bad guy had a sawed-off Enfield .303 that failed to operate after the first (missed) shot, but the guy bashed the cops head in with the rifle after having been shot with a 9mm WITH GOOD PLACEMENT. In the promotional video produced by Richard Davis, “Second Chance vs. the Cop Killers,” there is a re-enactment of an incident involving a cop who shot and shot and shot a guy who was trying to open his truck box to get to his Thompson subgun. The cop reloaded a couple of times, but the guy would not go down. That was 9mm WITH GOOD PLACEMENT.

That was over 20 years ago, though. Bullet design has been greatly improved. Things might be different now. (In those days, the Remington 115 JHP was pretty much standard issue for police, with some 125 JSP.)

Since then, I also have personally known people who took solid hits from .45 ACP (hardball) and .44 Mag (180 JHP), and were not put out of the fight. I have seen a video of a local police shooting where the bad guy took two center chest hits from a .40, led police on a car chase through two towns, holed up in an apartment for a couple hours, and then surrendered, and walked himself to the ambulance. There was a story in the paper just two weeks ago about a cop who shot a guy in the chest with 12 gauge 00B, and the guy ran inside the house and bled to death. (If a guy can run, he can pull a trigger, no?) On the other hand, I know of a case (because I attended the trial) of a scrawny little guy who felt threatened by a bully, a big, muscular weight lifter, and popped him with a .32 ACP (FMJ). The bully went down instantly, and died on the spot.

I have read of so many (well-documented) cases of failure to stop with 9mm, WITH GOOD PLACEMENT, that I am sure it will no put people down reliably. Sometimes, yes, but not reliably. I have not seen nearly as many cases with .40's and .45's, probably because there are so many more 9's out there. Maybe .40's and .45's are just as inadequate as 9mm’s, so I don’t expect miracles. Or maybe they are better. Don’t know. I know that they are probably not any worse, though, so that's why I prefer calibers starting with "4."


----------



## martial_field (Oct 16, 2006)

This debate goes on forever. From reading descriptions of police shootouts, my opinion is that violent criminals can take one or more hits in the torso with any of the three calibers you listed and not die instantly. They often keep shooting their own weapons even though their wounds are mortal and they will die in a matter of minutes. If one is in this situation, I think the 9 is potent enough with hollow point rounds but the point is that no matter which caliber, you must keep shooting and placing hits as long as the lethal threat continues. For me, I like the 9 because of its reduced recoil, especially in a polymer frame gun, which is what I would choose to carry because of the lower weight. The 9 would, in my view, enable me to place more good shots quickly than the heavier calibers. Obviously, that is just my preference and there are plenty of folks who think the higher calibers are better. It's what you are comfortable with and most confident with that truly tells the tale.


----------



## scooter (May 9, 2006)

ANYBODY shot 33 times(even with a 22 and flying in the ozone on drugs) and still kills 2 cops WAS NOT shot with "good placement".PERIOD.BS.
If he hasnt dropped after 2 or 3 then the cops know enough to start aiming at his head! If your story is true then the cops panicked and got killed because of it.Even 2 or 3 9mm will slow someone down enough to get a try at his head.


----------



## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Some very interesting stuff here:
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
Not totally persuasive to me, because in an autopsy, you can't tell how long it took for the guy to become incapacitated. You know he is dead, but looking at the body doesn't tell you if he fired 30 shots (including reloads) before dying. This guy is convinced that .45's kill more efficiently (that is, with fewer shots) than 9's, but that could also be because the guys shot with .45's survive, couldn't it?
Anyway, interesting, if not dispositive. Enjoy


----------



## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

*9mm vs 45 cal.*

I think it's more in how you practice with your gun than the caliber of it. I practice two in COM and one in the head. Repeat as much as needed. I know of no case where anybody kept fighting after getting shot in the head if the bullet was powerful enough to go through the skull. I know of cases where people were shot in the head with 25s or 22s and they lived. FBI says a man can fight up to a mintue and one half after a shot to the heart. A shot in the head or one that severs the spine and he is out of the fight right now.:smt023


----------



## -gunut- (May 8, 2006)

milquetoast said:


> Some very interesting stuff here:
> http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm


I have seen that before. That guy is a moron. His logic is messed up. How can he say that 9mm does not work as well when the people he sees are already DEAD? That sounds pretty effective to me. He even says the MAJORITY of people he gets in there were killed with 9mm. Again, sound pretty effective. Perhaps he tends to find more 9mm in a person then the bigger calibers because you can get the shots off faster.


----------



## Highside (Jan 20, 2007)

I'd have to agree with most above when concerning these three calibers that shot placement is much more of a decieding factor then the caliber.

I'm a .45 guy, but after buying my first 9mm recently I'd feel confident using it to defend myself.....but, given the choice I'd still go for my .45. Of course at home I'm goin straight for the 12 gauge.

Jason, if you are worried that your 9mms are inadequate, i wouldn't worry, just practice and research your self defense ammo carefully. 

Do you NEED a .45? I think so:mrgreen: If nothing else diversity in your collection is a good thing. Have you tried .45? Who knows, maybe you'll wind up liking it better. If it works for you then you have another option.

One thing I always find interesting in these .45 vs 9mm debates, you almost never hear anyone say the 9 is better than the .45 in stopping power, sure for recoil and capacity, but the 9 is always compared to being "as good" with the right ammo. The .45 always seems to be the standard to live up to between the two. In my opinion, if the recoil isn't an issue why not give yourself the known benchmark? Of course for us in CA capacity isn't an issue as it's limited to 10 anyway so that makes it really easy fo me to decide.

As to where the .40 fits in, I can actually shoot better with the .45s power as I find the .40 to be snappier and I get more muzzle flip. So I don't have much use for the .40, I'll take my .45 with 9mm being my second choice.

I keep .357 handy in my revolvers :smt033


----------



## mw1311 (Feb 7, 2007)

I prefer 40S&W & 45ACP.


----------



## Maximo (May 26, 2006)

I could not agree more. Good Shot Placement is in the heart or head, one or two in either will do the job and the caliber is of little consequence.

I recently acquired another 1911 in .45, and still consider it my favorite caliber to shoot but when I leave the house this morning to go to work I will be carrying my Beretta 84,( .380 ) as has become the norm, and I don't feel under gunned in the least.



scooter said:


> ANYBODY shot 33 times(even with a 22 and flying in the ozone on drugs) and still kills 2 cops WAS NOT shot with "good placement".PERIOD.BS.
> If he hasnt dropped after 2 or 3 then the cops know enough to start aiming at his head! If your story is true then the cops panicked and got killed because of it.Even 2 or 3 9mm will slow someone down enough to get a try at his head.


----------



## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Here's a saying from a gentleman on the S&W site and it rings the turth.

"Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

Makes a lot of sense to me. You decide. Good luck.


----------



## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

-gunut- said:


> I have seen that before. That guy is a moron.


Moron? I would say he is an intelligent, articulate fellow with an unusual and valuable perspective, with whom I do not agree on several particulars. On the other hand, some people define "moron" as "anybody who doesn't agree with me."


----------



## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

:watching:


----------



## -gunut- (May 8, 2006)

milquetoast said:


> Moron? I would say he is an intelligent, articulate fellow with an unusual and valuable perspective, with whom I do not agree on several particulars. On the other hand, some people define "moron" as "anybody who doesn't agree with me."


The logic he presents in that article lead me to believe he is a moron. Your opinion may vary.


----------



## jenglish (Dec 29, 2006)

Shot placement can not be stressed enough. I carry a 9mm for work, but also own the same platform in 40SW (Walther P99). I have also owned 357SIG and 45ACP in the past. The size of the round means nothing if you can not hit what you are aiming for. Just my 2 coppers.


----------



## Lawnman380 (Feb 8, 2007)

jenglish said:


> Shot placement can not be stressed enough. I carry a 9mm for work, but also own the same platform in 40SW (Walther P99). I have also owned 357SIG and 45ACP in the past. The size of the round means nothing if you can not hit what you are aiming for. Just my 2 coppers.


 :smt023 Agreed!! Practice-Training-Practice-Training-Practice!!!


----------



## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

This debate will go on forever. Long after you and I are here. Everyone will agree that shot placement is key. Acquiring the follow up shot is also as important. But not all situations are perfect. If you get a chance to fire off five rounds and only one hits, would you want that to be a .45 or a 9mm? I carry .45 and I don't have to constantly rationalize that 9mm is sufficient as long as bla bla bla...


----------



## madmag (Jan 29, 2007)

I think of extremes. If an M1 shooting 30-06 @ 180g and about 3000ft lbs. muzzle energy will not always stop someone unless hit in a vital area, then why would a 9mm or .45acp at about 400 ft. lbs stop them...unless hit in vital area? It's all about shot placement. 

Well, OK if they are at 500 yards or wearing body armor, then I will take an M1. Come to think of it I will always take the M1 but it is hard to carry in a concealed holster.


----------



## scooter (May 9, 2006)

400 fps??????????????


----------



## madmag (Jan 29, 2007)

> 400 fps??????????????


Not feet per second....foot lbs.


----------



## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Yup , trying to read too fast again...


----------



## LoneWolf (Jan 2, 2007)

Wouldn't it just be easier to say that every caliber has it's place. One just needs to pick there tools that is best going to fit his / her mission. At least that is how I would look at it. :numbchuck:


----------



## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Lawnman380 said:


> Practice-Training-Practice-Training-Practice!!!


+ 1 :smt023

I carry a .45, but would feel fine with a 9mm or .40

My reasons for carrying a .45 are simple, I like the way it feels and I shoot better with it. Everyone is different, experiment a little and find out for yourself what you shoot better with, then go from there.


----------



## P97 (May 8, 2006)

All are good defense calibers. It boils down to personal preference. As has been previously mentioned, shot placement and practice is the most important thing. I personally like to shoot the .45 and reload it.


----------



## sje0123 (Jul 6, 2006)

Not a true answer to the situation, but this may help a little.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2007)

I only use 9mm because I cannot fire the larger calibers rapidly and keep control of the weapon accurately enough to hit anything. I can double tap and fire 9mms rapidly and keep them on target.


----------



## OrangeSkies (Jul 5, 2006)

> You have to decide which for yourself but I pick the 45 for me.


Yep, add me to this group. Since I obviously can't guarantee perfect shot placement in a stressful situation, I at least want maximum tissue damage where ever I do hit.

Besides, I never cared much for the l'il euro-pellet.


----------



## scorpiusdeus (Feb 7, 2007)

9MM, .40 S&W, .45 I believe all will get the job done in the hands of a competent shooter.

For me I prefer to stick w/ .40 S&W just because I can shoot it accurately, and I like the platforms it's available in.

I own a .357 Mag and a 9MM, but for Duty/CCW/home defense it's .40 S&W for me.


----------



## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

OrangeSkies said:


> Yep, add me to this group. Since I obviously can't guarantee perfect shot placement in a stressful situation, I at least want maximum tissue damage where ever I do hit.
> 
> Besides, I never cared much for the l'il euro-pellet.


Yup. That's what I'm saying. I agree with shot placement and follow up. I also agree with maximum expansion. But these are all great in a lab environment. Put yourself in a difficult situation where you *might* get one out of five shots to hit the bad guy, you want maximum damage.


----------



## USAFgsm (Dec 18, 2006)

all this talk makes me wonder where the other 4 out of your 5 shots are going. :smt108


----------



## mw1311 (Feb 7, 2007)

USAFgsm said:


> all this talk makes me wonder where the other 4 out of your 5 shots are going. :smt108


they are hitting that kid playing ball 300 yards away...:help:


----------



## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

Gentlemen, I'm not saying it's ok to shoot wildly. You're missing my point.

Accuracy, shot placement, follow up shots, etc. can be agreed upon by anyone. Everybody should practice and learn. No disagreeing there. However, if the situation you're in results in only one or two hits on the bad guy, wouldn't you want that to be a .45 instead of a 9mm? It's the same logic as avoiding situations where you might have to defend yourself. Avoid dark alleys. Don't tailgate. Avoid conflict. And so on. But if you do end up in such a situation, wouldn't you want to have your pistol with you? Or will you just forever assert that avoiding dark alleys is sufficient?

I practice a lot. I'm comfortable with my gun. I know I shoot better than other people I see at the range. Still, I carry a .45.


----------



## mw1311 (Feb 7, 2007)

no arguement there. I always say use the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately. Me & my wife prefer cal. 40 & 45 ourself. We don't think much of 9mm and smaller even tho they might be sufficient with good shot placement. 
In our household the only place the 9mm has is for training at gunsite or blackwater we plan on going to since 9mm ammo is cheap and shooting 500 rounds + a day with a .40 or .45 gets exhausting.


----------



## madmag (Jan 29, 2007)

I sometimes think this never ending, but often entertaining debate would be less if all involved had done a lot of hunting. When you hunt you learn fast that you have to have at least the minimum power and caliber to do the job, but after that it's all shot placement.

Uh, I think I said earlier that I was going to wait another decade before I said more about the 9mm VS .45 debate. Never say never.


----------



## jason0007 (Nov 21, 2006)

that's why i am purchasing a .40 caliber pistol for my next gun...
i have 4 pistols all 9mm...but i think i need a .40 just in case..


----------



## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

Just have a look at this. That hole was made by a .45ACP, NOT a 9mm. 

Would you want to get hit by that?


----------



## mw1311 (Feb 7, 2007)

Here in Texas we have the saying "The bigger the better" ...the same is true for bullet size.


----------



## busdriver72 (Feb 9, 2007)

ANY caliber is better than no gun at all.



> Just have a look at this. That hole was made by a .45ACP, NOT a 9mm.


I dunno, man.....looks like a 50cal to me.


----------



## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

According to that image, it looks like the 357 Sig would be the way to go. The wound channel seems to be the greatest. I find it odd that all bullets penetraded equally (more or less)

The only real difference between 357 Sig and 9mm is the speed. It is amazing what an extra 150fps will do to the wound channel.

How similar would a 124gr +P 9mm behave?



sje0123 said:


> Not a true answer to the situation, but this may help a little.


----------



## scooter (May 9, 2006)

I was looking at that too , but look "where" the .45 does its greatest damage! AFTER it penetrates its damage swells(near vital organs!!).
Just convinces me even more to stick to the old .45:smt033


----------



## rachilders (Oct 25, 2006)

Many people seem to consider the .40+ calibers as the minimum caliber one should carry when it comes to self defense. OTOH, I talked with a retired Texas Ranger a few months ago about this same subject. To begin with, he said of the dozens of fatal shootings he investigated over a 25+ year career, well over half involved long guns (rifles and shotguns), not pistols. I guess it supposts the old adage that if you know you're going to a gun fight, bring a rifle/shotgun! Of those that did involve handguns, he remembered that those involving large caliber pistols (calibers beginning with "4") could be counted on one hand. The fact was almost all the pistol shootings were commited with four calibers; .22, .380 .38 SPL or 9mm, with the 9mm and 22 have the lions share. Strangely, two killings involved black powder guns, almost as many as involved "big" caliber pistols?? Still, ALL were fatal, including the BP, and aside from the .22's, almost all the rest are in the same caliber range (.380, .38, 9mm).

For anyone interested, his personal carry gun is a .357, his duty gun was a .45 ACP and his BUG was (is?) a .38 derringer. It's interesting his "work" gun was a 45 but his personal guns are in the .38/9mm range.


----------



## mw1311 (Feb 7, 2007)

A lot of LE Agencies are still buying 9mm guns, that doesn't mean I have to. Also, the reason that most fatal shootings he investigated involved small caliber guns is because the thugs can't afford much more. Just go to an police auction where they auction off guns used in crimes...about 90% of these are chambered in something smaller than 9mm. It's also a long known fact that thugs love the '9' because you can spread more bullets. 
but, as always...shot placement is key. If you can hit with a bigger bullet the better are the results most likely. 


btw; the .357 Magnum is a well proven manstopper for a long time.


----------



## Highside (Jan 20, 2007)

rachilders said:


> The fact was almost all the pistol shootings were commited with four calibers; .22, .380 .38 SPL or 9mm, with the 9mm and 22 have the lions share. .........Still, ALL were fatal, including the BP, and aside from the .22's, almost all the rest are in the same caliber range (.380, .38, 9mm).


I've seen these type of statistics before, an I have no doubt they're true.

But what conclusions do you draw from these statistics? Remember the main idea when being attacked is not to fatally wound the attacker, but to stop them right now from attacking. I'll bet that in many of these instances the person shot either died on the way to the hospital, maybe at the hospital, or at least a few minutes after the incident. I'm sure some lost the ability or will to fight right away, but how many didn't? If they didin't you're still in danger. I'd still bet on larger calibers to maximize my chances of stopping the attacker right now.

Heck, you could shoot someone with a .22 in the leg in the middle of the desert and it may prove to be a fatal wound, but is that what we're looking for?:mrgreen:


----------

