# Attempts at Point Shooting



## Vodoun da Vinci

Recent trip to the range with my Wife to keep skill levels up and learn new ones. This was my first attempt at "Point Shooting" after working on the concept at home with dry firing and visualization. Not great - not bad and pretty surprising at how combat effective this is so I am pleased to have added this skill to my Bag-O-Tricks.










The gun: Colt 1903 Model M, built 1918 (95 years old) in .32 ACP Ammunition: Sellier and Bellot 73 grain hardball at 21 feet. This is my very first attempt at shooting without sight acquisition. I raise the pistol finger off trigger while visualizing pointing my index finger at the red and then fired double, triple, and quadruple taps in a brisk cadence while looking at the target and not the sights. Lower the gun finger off trigger and repeat 5 to 10 seconds later. I'll be working on this technique at the end of every range session from now on as a finishing exercise now that I know I can consistently hit a 6" X 10" target (love the splatter targets!!) intuitively. Plans are to reduce the size of the target and stop using splatters when I get the concept drilled in and go back to silhouette targets at varying ranges between perhaps 8' - 30'. I'll practice this with lateral movements and while moving to cover and increase the cadence when I get out to the range at the Farm.

It's a lot of fun and a very cool break from bullseye target shooting at the range.

Thanks for looking!

VooDoo


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## Steve M1911A1

Nice old gun.
Mine is older—but then, I'm older than you are. :smt033

Next time, take another semi-fraction of a second to see the silhouette of the rear end of the slide, superposed over the target. It's really just as quick, but it's much more precise.
It's also good practice for very-low-light shooting.


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## rex

That's pretty good for a first try.I assume you're doing a sight over of the slide.When this comes together after muscle memory gets you tightened up,start 3/4 and 1/2 hip.When you draw lock your elbow to your side and raise the gun up in the bottom of your peripheral vision but stare at exactly where you want the bullet to hit.your wrist,hand and peripheral vision can do the same thing.Don't change your focal point to POI,keep string at the original POA.When that closes in go down to 1/2 hip where the elbow is locked but the arm is parallel with the ground,also called a speed rock.7 to 10 yd COM shots can be learned fairly quickly.

If you want to expand that further,Brownie at Threat Focused in Arizona teaches this as KwikKill technique as is very good at it with pistol and rifle at much longer distances.Rifles can be a bit easier because you have more gun to index off of.Mas Ayoob laughed at this practice years ago but now teaches the same under a different name.At the moment Brownie is retired from his LE work and gun shop but still conducts training.He does everything from HTH up and is quite wicked with a blade from what I hear from those that have trained with him.His Bowie knife skills are fast and deadly,not somebody you screw with.


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## Vodoun da Vinci

Thanks for the advice! I have heard of Brownie before...sounds like my kind of stuff! 

VooDoo


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## hentom

Voodoo, you have found out how accurate we point our finger! This is an old technique taught to us during jungle warfare training for Vietnam. (1969-70)It was found that many times the enemy would pop up from the jungle floor so close and there would be little time to acquire the typical sight picture. The training began for our group while seated in bleachers, there in front of us was a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood with a life size clown painted on. having a red nose. The instructor had us all point our finger at the clown's red nose, then we were to carefully lower our head and look down the finger and low and behold, we had the nose dead-on! When we moved on to using weapons the barrel had sights obscured, although we were not allowed to bring the weapon to our shoulder anyway. By the end of the day we were all hitting most of the little round metal disks (similar to fruit jar/canning jar lids) that our buddy would toss into the air. Get this, how amazed can a young man be to know he can hit a small moving target while shooting from the hip! Good luck with your new technique. I need to see if I can bring that skill back to life in my own shooting. This method had the distinctive name "Quick Kill"


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## all357mag

Looks good. You taught yourself the MOST important technique for combat/self defense shooting!


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## Glock Doctor

Maybe he did; and maybe he didn't. At 7 1/2 yards it's very very easy to direct your fire by watching the bullet strikes. Try doing the same thing at 12 yards; and, then, see what happens! By the way, whatever happened to, 'pushing the gun into the target'? Out of favor now, or what? 

(Clint Eastwood does some phenomenal point shooting in all of his, 'Spaghetti Westerns'.) :smt083


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## Ksgunner

From all I have seen and read, most gun fights happen within 7 yards so I would say the OP has done well here. How much time will there be for obtaining a solid site picture and squeezing the shot off. Remember to breathe and we need a real tight group here...


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## Glock Doctor

Ksgunner said:


> From all I have seen and read, most gun fights happen within 7 yards so I would say the OP has done well here. How much time will there be for obtaining a solid site picture and squeezing the shot off. Remember to breathe and we need a real tight group here...


:smt001 Maybe this will help you: As Dave Spaulding has pointed out; and as Jim Cirillo's own personal style with a handgun often demonstrated during his time on the NYC PD's Stakeout Squad:

*YOUR SUPPOSITION IS A POPULAR INTERNET GUN FORUM (AND ASS-BACKWARD GUNFIGHTING SCHOOL) MYTH.*

It has been egregiously derived and incorrectly promulgated from erroneous conclusions formed, largely, from older NYC Police and FBI annual reports on CQB pistol encounters between law enforcement, and violent criminals in which the criminals prevailed, and police officers lost the gunfight.

*IF YOU STICK TO THIS SAME HALF-ASSED GUNFIGHTING PSYCHOLOGY (AND ADOPT THE SUBSEQUENTLY INDICATED ERRONEOUS PROTOCOL) YOU WILL, PROBABLY, GET SHOT THE VERY FIRST TIME YOU, 'GO UP TO BAT'.*

I don't know exactly what you've been reading; BUT, clearly, you need to read some more. Hopefully (with you being a, 'good guy' and all) you'll be able to ascertain for yourself exactly, 'Why' you never want to allow:

*THE OTHER GUY - WHO'S, PROBABLY, GOING TO BE SURPRISINGLY QUICK ON THE DRAW - TO BE THE FIRST ONE TO ENTER INTO HIS OWN, 'PERSONAL COMBAT COMFORT ZONE' BEFORE YOU'RE ALREADY 100% READY TO ENGAGE HIM.*

*LIKE SO MANY OTHER MISINFORMED PISTOLEROS YOUR SUPPOSITION IS A POPULAR INTERNET GUN FORUM (AND ASS-BACKWARD GUNFIGHTING SCHOOL) MYTH - A PERSONALLY DANGEROUS MYTH!*

Read Dave Spaulding's, 'What Really Happens In A Gunfight?' and Jim Cirillo's, 'Tales Of The Stakeout Squad' These texts should give you a much better idea of what's going on in a real world armed encounter, as well as the correct and most advantageous manner in which you should proceed to commence, both, an anticipated AND successfully concluded CQB pistol gunfight.

(If you don't know, 'How' to correctly anticipate, 'trouble' when you're suddenly confronted with it &#8230;&#8230; well, you're either able to see it, or you don't. That's one problem you're going to have to work on all by yourself.) :smt002


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## Ksgunner

Wow...another internet commando here...


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## rex

:watching:


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## Ksgunner

^^^ this ^^^^ I wish we had a like button


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## Glock Doctor

:roll: Oh, the darkness! Nothing worthwhile to contribute except ill-informed juvenile sarcasm. ('Junior Member' next to the screen name really says it all!) :smt018


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## Ksgunner

Yeah, post count really matters huh..after all you have 60 more post than me,,what vast knowledge that must be..


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## rex

I remember Spaulding but didn't always agree with what he said.I also remember Cirillo,Skelton,Rogers and others of the old days.Point shooting is old as guns and Munden is proof of that.

I had to shoot 1/2 hip in qualifying for LE at the 3yd line with a revolver,wasn't rocket science after a few shots.7yds is just a little more practice with your specific gun,indexing is a natural process and all you have to do is refine it.There are also different levels of point shooting:1/2 hip,3/4 hip and I consider a low sight over right in there.Mas Ayoob laughed at the QuikKill technique Brownie in Arizona taught long ago-guess what,Mas now teaches the same under a different name.If you learn it,you can shoot a handgun or rifle at distance and make soda cans dance.7yds is nothing.When I shot run and gun a lot,I never used the sights under 25ft or so,I just did a sight over.With shotgun I shot from the hip as I was still on my way to the next station.The shotguns aere easy,there's a lot of barrel in your peripheral vision to index off.

At 7yds or less that the majority of confrontations happen,using your sights not only slows you down but your focus is off the threat and any in the vicinity.Practice teaches you the proprioception (muscle memory) that you automatically are on target after the draw,and COM is a big target that you don't want to play bullseye with and drill one hole-spread them out for new wound channels and hydrostatic damage.A head shot,yeah I'll align that one up because you have a 3 to 4" triangle to drill,a bit more precision.

I'm not taking sides on this gig,just my view of up close survival if you can get a pistol into play.


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## Ksgunner

I agree with you rex and I was trying to point that out. I guess my attempt at humor was not taken well by some members. I don't believe there will be a lot of time for site picture in any gun fight in side 7 yards. I could be wrong as I haven't been in a gun fight this close in my 70 years of life. Hope in never comes down to that.


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## Glock Doctor

Ksgunner said:


> I agree with you rex and I was trying to point that out. I guess my attempt at humor was not taken well by some members. I don't believe there will be a lot of time for site picture in any gun fight in side 7 yards. I could be wrong as I haven't been in a gun fight this close in my 70 years of life. Hope in never comes down to that.


Wow! We're the same age. (Who would have thought?) Yeah, I guess I am a lot more serious an individual than you appear to be. That's OK; we're, all, different; and stuff like this keeps the Internet interesting.

My whole point (and, yes, unfortunately I've already been there) is that I will do everything possible in order to keep the other guy with a gun away from myself. Once an attacker gets inside that genuinely (Read, 'mutually') deadly 7 1/2 yard perimeter, BOTH protagonists are in serious trouble and share equally in the mutual risk of being seriously wounded.

Cirillo knew this; and that's, 'Why' he would often rush an opponent while firing; and, truth be known, Jim preferred to fire first. Spaulding's work on CQB gunfights is, in my opinion, seminal to our day and age. It corrects so many of the popular pistol gunfighting misconceptions of the past. For the record I don't require anybody's agreement-by-rote. Everyone's free to contribute what he will. Me? I prefer sensible criticism(s) and cogent replies rather than so much of the Internet tomfoolery that is always so prevalent on these boards. (You know what I mean, right!) :smt002

NOTE: I like the comments about, 'proprioceptive memory' (conditioned muscle reflex). Here's a target that I just grabbed off the bench, put out at 18 yards and fired from the hip and just as fast as I could pull the trigger with a G-21. (Which I do NOT consider to be a, 'naturally pointing' handgun.) I stuck some 357 cartridges I had with me through the holes in order to highlight the hits. Not too bad, I think; but, then again, I've been point shooting pistols since I was about 16 years old.

Because I'm sure someone's going to notice: I seldom write out the abbreviation, 'yds.' when I'm at the range. Everything is measured in yards; and I simply mark, ( ' ) after the distance; but, it's definitely, 'YARDS', OK.










(I've shot many dozens of targets like this; and close-in I'm considerably more accurate, too. I stopped needing to use the sights many years (decades) ago. 'Proprioceptive memory' does it all for me!)


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## Steve M1911A1

I admit that I've never had to kill anyone, or even had to _try_ to kill anyone, but I've done a whole lot of "practical" shooting, and I've been in-and gotten out of-a couple of pretty serious almost-gunfights.

It is my own practice to either use my sights or to "slide shoot" (see post #2 in this thread) at any distance past that at which I can push my opponent away with my offside hand.

Some people are very surprised at how quickly I can acquire my sights, during a presentation and a shot. However, one must not strive for precision in a pistol fight: that is best left to the use of rifles at longer ranges. But it is very useful to know approximately where one's shot will actually land, and even to be able to rapidly correct one's aim when there is time and it is necessary.


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## Glock Doctor

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ....... It is my own practice to either use my sights or to "slide shoot" (see post #2 in this thread) at any distance past that at which I can push my opponent away with my offside hand.
> 
> Some people are very surprised at how quickly I can acquire my sights, during a presentation and a shot. However, one must not strive for precision in a pistol fight: that is best left to the use of rifles at longer ranges. But it is very useful to know approximately where one's shot will actually land, and even to be able to rapidly correct one's aim when there is time and it is necessary.


Good reply! That's a valid (and very quick) technique for making some of the longer shots.

When it was taught to me it was called, 'squaring up the back of the slide'. Used properly it requires a slightly lower than usual hold against the target; AND, you want to be able to see the very front of the gun while you fire by looking straight down a slide that's being held as level as possible. (Takes practice!)


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## Steve M1911A1

Glock Doctor said:


> ...(Takes practice!)


Ah, but doesn't it all!

The real problem, as I've noted from reading many, many posts on this forum and on others, is that all too many people _think_ that pistol shooting is easy and instinctive, while I _know_ that doing it effectively takes lots and lots of practice.

Yes, pistol shooting is indeed instinctive. But that's only after one has done all of the absolutely-necessary practice that turns the learned skill into an instinctive response.

It is not enough to merely own and carry a pistol. Indeed, it surprises most beginners to find that they cannot immediately make useful hits at across-the-room distances.


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## Glock Doctor

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ah, but doesn't it all!
> 
> The real problem, as I've noted from reading many, many posts on this forum and on others, is that all too many people _think_ that pistol shooting is easy and instinctive, while I _know_ that doing it effectively takes lots and lots of practice.
> 
> Yes, pistol shooting is indeed instinctive. But that's only after one has done all of the absolutely-necessary practice that turns the learned skill into an instinctive response.
> 
> It is not enough to merely own and carry a pistol. Indeed, it surprises most beginners to find that they cannot immediately make useful hits at across-the-room distances.


Very insightful! (I can tell you've been doing this for awhile.)

Perhaps the other thing that should be mentioned is that: PISTOL SHOOTING IS A NATURALLY SELF-DEGRADING SKILL. Not 100% self-degrading, but partially degrading nonetheless. If a pistol shooter doesn't practice regularly, and stay with it, then some percentage of his acquired talent is going to be diminished. Translation? Ya got 'a practice; 'bite the bullet' so to speak; and spend your so-called, 'discretionary income' on ammunition and supplies!

The very best pistol shooting I've ever done in my life came at a time when I was doing between 1,000 and 1,500 fired rounds a month. (Something I, really, can no longer afford to do.)


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## Steve M1911A1

Glock Doctor said:


> ...The very best pistol shooting I've ever done in my life came at a time when I was doing between 1,000 and 1,500 fired rounds a month...


Me, too.

I can still afford to do it, but between arthritis, and having to go off-island on a one-hour ferry ride and take a 80-mile drive to get to someplace where from-the-holster shooting is not forbidden, there just is very little opportunity.
I make-do with dry-fire practice and a few live-fire excursions every year, and I make Jean do her own practicing too, but that's about it.

I love interesting words, so I tend to write that "pistol shooting is a very fungible skill." I know that the word is a little bit obscure. It just means that it's a skill that's "self-degrading," just as you have written.


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## TAPnRACK

I can only afford about 300 rounds a month (most months)... good thing doing dry fire drills at home is free, lol.

I agree that firearm skills are perishable... it's definitely an expensive skill to keep up, and one that may save your life one day.


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## paratrooper

When push turns to shove, the adrenaline flows and muscle memory takes over. Everything that you think you might have forgotten, comes flooding back.

You really don't remember all that much, other than the fact that you fired. Everything slows down (as in slow motion) and your ears tend to turn off. 

You go back over and over it in your mind for a long time to come.


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## Steve M1911A1

TAPnRACK said:


> I can only afford about 300 rounds a month (most months)...


To paraphrase a line of dialog from _The Graduate_: "One word, my boy: Reloading."

If you're going to be shooting 1,000 to 1,500 rounds in a month, you really need a Dillon press and a wholesale-size supply of components.
It was also nice to have a helpful daughter...at least until she discovered boys.

On rare occasion, I found myself firing 1,000 rounds in a _weekend_! But that was very serious match-preparation practice.


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## TAPnRACK

Believe me Steve, I've contemplated getting into reloading several times as I also shoot precision .308 (an even more expensive venture). I may look into it more this winter as a hobby. 

I usually save my brass for my reloading buddies who tell me that reloading won't save me much money, but will allow me to shoot more (for my money), lol.


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## rex

Now we're talking.this is what proves staring at the front sight nay be enough time to for you to take the first hit.Practicing the sight-over at close range is where it's at,and practice it!Luckily in my short stint in LE I never had to pull,and once I just had to show I was armed to difuse a situation,but the world is a crazy and dangerous place.When we still called it combat matches,anything under 7yd/25ft was a sight-over hammer.Up close I could run run with or beat a comped Super with a Gov't 45 with only sights and a good trigger.Not a hosedown on plates or pins in general,but I pissed a few off.If the gun fits you and you learn it,and maybe set it up better,practice can get you blinding fast with hits.

While the gamer Grand Masters are awesome at speed and snake-eye hits,that's completely opposite of SD.Yes they can deviate,but many are in awe of their ability and strive for it hindering real life.You need to place your shots accurately,but drilling a few shots in the same hole just doesn't cut it.We're using handguns,hysrostatic shock is limited.A paper plate is COM,keep them inside that fast.Lung,other lung,heart,the perfect hit is a central nervous shutdown.Spread those puppies out a few inches and if you don't shut down the CNS,you're creating multiple leaks and maximizing what jellow you can create to stop a threat.Up close and a sight-over accomplishes that,staring at the front sight slows you down.


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## Vodoun da Vinci

Sorry I haven't been back to check/add to this thread in a while. I have expanded this style of shooting to longer distances and used it with several other pistols now...it was self taught and has now become my standard for combat stye shooting. At 30' rapid fire the groups opened up a bit but then as I practiced more they closed back up a bit. Practice makes perfect or at least better I guess.

This technique is devastating with my new Glock 26 as well asmy Colts including the Officers ACP...I'm sure it will work with any pistol that fits me and points naturally for me. At an outside range I can now move laterally and consistently drill a 6"X10" target at 30' without ever acquiring a sight picture or even remotely thinking about a sight....I still visualize my forefinger as pointing where I want the bullet to go and it does. It goes where my mind sees my finger pointing even if I look at a target and then start shooting and look at another target. Move the focus and the Mind's Finger to another target and the rounds go there. I can do this now from the hip, from chest level, or even as I present the weapon. I can look forward and see a silhouette out of the corner of my eye using my periphery vision (which is very sensitive to movement in low light) and thrust my pistol out from the shoulder at a 90 degree angle and hit that target without ever taking my eyes off of what I am looking at in front of me!

I practice about 20 - 30 minutes a day, 3 days a week with dry firing (unload it and disassemble/reassemble and put the ammo in another room works for me...) using various targets on basement walls in various levels of light. I start with my finger extended along the side of the pistol and point then verify the target acquisition with my sights. If anything this has added to the precision. After a few minutes of this point and verify I switch the forefinger to the trigger and raise the pistol and "snap shoot" visualizing the finger pointed in the "background" of my mind. Click, freeze, verify target acquisition with sights. Reset (rack) the empty pistol and repeat.

Thank Gaad for the 'Net - I read about Point Shooting, Quick Kill, etc and disassembled the theory and applied the basics to what I already knew about shooting and martial disciplines and it has blossomed into an extremely useful and functional tool that I am completely comfortable with. Truthfully I have played with point and click acquisition in the total darkness, and with looking at a target and seeing where it is and then immediately switching my eyes to another target while engaging the first target with my Minds Finger. The bullet goes where the finger points everytime. I am a professional musician and my ears are very well tuned to knowing where something is exactly located when I hear it. I can now point at a sound with my minds finger and hit it in the dark...verified with a laser on a Ruger LCP!

This stuff works and it does not require over thinking or an instructor to use if you self teach *very carefully* and proceed slowly with complete safety as your goal. This technique uses basic skills and the fact that we can point at what we see/hear with unbelievable accuracy and after some muscle memory is developed we can begin to concentrate on clearing the mind of the physical aspects of shooting and concentrate on the "situation" and what is behind the target and the relative location of other targets while leaving the sights and manipulation of targeting to a silent part of our mind. For me, the pushing of this concept involves clearing the mind and making the hits seamless and without sighting and allowing the forward part of the mind and eyes to concentrate on threat assessment and tactical/situational awareness instead of tying up brain space on targeting and sight acquisition.

If yer not a good self teacher find a teacher who teaches this and get cracking even if you have to pay the price of a couple good pistols to get to the training. It *will* change the way you shoot in combat/SD situations and give you a peace of mind I cannot describe. I'll try and get some video of this next Spring if I can.

But learn this, you guys. This is very simple and powerful stuff.

VooDoo


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## pic

Vodoun da Vinci said:


> Recent trip to the range with my Wife to keep skill levels up and learn new ones. This was my first attempt at "Point Shooting" after working on the concept at home with dry firing and visualization. Not great - not bad and pretty surprising at how combat effective this is so I am pleased to have added this skill to my Bag-O-Tricks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gun: Colt 1903 Model M, built 1918 (95 years old) in .32 ACP Ammunition: Sellier and Bellot 73 grain hardball at 21 feet. This is my very first attempt at shooting without sight acquisition. I raise the pistol finger off trigger while visualizing pointing my index finger at the red and then fired double, triple, and quadruple taps in a brisk cadence while looking at the target and not the sights. Lower the gun finger off trigger and repeat 5 to 10 seconds later. I'll be working on this technique at the end of every range session from now on as a finishing exercise now that I know I can consistently hit a 6" X 10" target (love the splatter targets!!) intuitively. Plans are to reduce the size of the target and stop using splatters when I get the concept drilled in and go back to silhouette targets at varying ranges between perhaps 8' - 30'. I'll practice this with lateral movements and while moving to cover and increase the cadence when I get out to the range at the Farm.
> 
> It's a lot of fun and a very cool break from bullseye target shooting at the range.
> 
> Thanks for looking!
> 
> VooDoo


Be careful with all that lateral movement, etc,lol.
I wouldn't go near anybody practicing their lateral movement with live ammo.


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## Glock Doctor

Ahh, that's exactly what a lot of other pistols shooters (including myself) do when they're practicing IDPA shooting. A large group of pistol shooters at one of my gun clubs meets once a week in order to do exactly this style of shooting. We shoot at varying distances from either far away, or up close and move across multiple targets as we continue to fire. (Usually from left to right, but not always.) The only hard fast rule is that THE MUZZLE ALWAYS HAS TO POINT DOWNRANGE.


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## pic

Glock Doctor said:


> Ahh, that's exactly what a lot of other pistols shooters (including myself) do when they're practicing IDPA shooting. A large group of pistol shooters at one of my gun clubs meets once a week in order to do exactly this style of shooting. We shoot at varying distances from either far away, or up close and move across multiple targets as we continue to fire. (Usually from left to right, but not always.) The only hard fast rule is that THE MUZZLE ALWAYS HAS TO POINT DOWNRANGE.


Your no spring chicken anymore Glock Doctor, with all that running around with a loaded gun,lol.
Just teasing.
Keep your shoelaces double tied For that lateral movement and have fun.


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## rex

pic said:


> Keep your shoelaces double tied For that lateral movement and have fun.


Or,leave them untied for practice going prone or diving to cover.Make sure the brass is picked up after each run and move rt to lt,landing on brass can pull a nice little wound.I can personally verify that.


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## pic

rex said:


> Or,leave them untied for practice going prone or diving to cover.Make sure the brass is picked up after each run and move rt to lt,landing on brass can pull a nice little wound.I can personally verify that.


LOL, !!
You made me laugh at 6AM before coffee.


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