# Ccw



## tradrick (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm looking to purchase a new CCW.Something that you will truly carry everyday.Afterall having a firearm you leave at home or in the truck ain't doing you much good.So, that got me to comparing several of the most pouplar quality models such as:Kahr PM9,Walther PPS,Springfield XD9SC,Smith & Wesson M & P Compact and the NAA Guardian 380ACP.These are all models I'm considering.I've compared weight,heigth,width,magazine capacity and overall length.I've read good reviews and customer comments on all models.So basiclly I want the litest and thinnest I can get were I would accutally carry it everyday.Out of my comparisons the winners are the Kahr PM9 and NAA Guardian.The Kahr is a borderline pocket pistol and good IWB.The Guardian would be excellant for either.My question is:Is a 380ACP enough for personal protection with quality hollow points.I know most would say it would be good for backup.I have a S&W 686-4 357 mag 4'' bbl.But I don't never carry it CCW because its to big and heavy.I've owned numerous other handguns in all shapes and sizes but the only one I've ever truly carried on my person everytime I walk out the door was a NAA Mini revolver in 5 shot 22 mag.And what I'm searching for is something thats as easy to carry but with more power.So how does everyone think the 380ACP would stack up to a pesonal defence weapon?Thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments.tradrick


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## Dynamik1 (Dec 23, 2007)

I would be ok with .380 as an option for deep concealment. I wouldnt, however, choose the NAA - I have heard too many respected opinions about the quality and reliability. Personally, I chose a Kel-Tec PF-9mm for concealed carry. Its not quite a pocket gun, but with the attached clip it nearly disappears behind my belt. In the future I may pickup the Kel-Tec P3-AT (.380) as a deep concealment pocket gun. 

I chose the Kel-Tec because of size, but some of the guns on your list are bigger and thicker (Kahr, Springfield and S&W) - if you dont mind the thickness, have you considered a baby Glock? They come in just about any caliber and have the Glock reliability factor.


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

as far as a .380 goes with the modern speer etc hollow points
it has 200FPE which is the same as the 38 special that was used by the police for probably over 50 years - they were everywhere
so
yes it is adequate and the satisfaction of having it 100% of the time is very comforting
these are front pants pocket guns with a nemisis holster (or other)
i would pick the ruger LCP - second choice would be the keltec 3AT
the next smallest in a 9mm would be the keltec PF9
in my opinion anything bigger is no a pocket gun and then you open a BIG BIG world of choices


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## tradrick (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks for the quick responces.I have'nt considered a Keltec was'nt sure about the quality.I actually just learned of the Ruger LCP last night from a magazine add.These are two more I guess I can look into.Does anyone have any comments on the quality and reliability of these two guns?I've owned several Ruger's in the past.They always had excellant quality IMO.Thanks tradrick


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## tradrick (Nov 15, 2008)

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCP.htm

Just read this excellant article on the litle Ruger LCP.


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## HowardCohodas (Nov 16, 2008)

tradrick said:


> Thanks for the quick responces.I have'nt considered a Keltec was'nt sure about the quality.I actually just learned of the Ruger LCP last night from a magazine add.These are two more I guess I can look into.Does anyone have any comments on the quality and reliability of these two guns?I've owned several Ruger's in the past.They always had excellant quality IMO.Thanks tradrick


I love my LCP as a BUG. I'm not so happy with it as a primary, but the new Hornady ammunition will go a long way to making the 380 an effective round. 
The best resource I've found so far that covers the choices associated with concealed carry is this.

[quote="Beginner's Guide To Carry
The first thing to learn (which will be demonstrated later) is that in regards to concealed carry, everything is a compromise. You sacrifice caliber for capacity or overall size, features for cost, sight radius for concealability, etc. Get used to this concept now as it will be a factor in every decision you make from this point. There is no perfect gun, there is no magic bullet, and despite my best efforts (in this message) there is no one size fits all.[/quote]


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## tradrick (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks for the links they have been helpful.And after a few days of researching and thinking about it.I think I'm more sold on what is considered the pocket pistols.Such as NAA Guardian,Keltec P3AT,Seecamp 380(not sure about price or avalibility) and the Ruger LCP.Now I've been to all 4 of these weapons forums.And as always have read numerous good things and few bad about all of them.All 4 seem to be of good to excellant quality.If I had to guess I would think that the best quality would have to go to the NAA and the Seecamp.But thats just how it seems to me after reading alot on each forum.I'm really kind of partial to the NAA Guardian.I can't seem to find anything negative about them that I have'nt heard about the other 3 also.Most owners have nothing but good things to say about them.So,I have to ask is there anything about the Guardian's quality or reliabilty I should consider?Thanks tradrick


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## JustRick (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm not really trying to toss dirt in the water here, but why don't folks talk about the CZ-83 in these discussions? Just wondering...


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

JustRick said:


> I'm not really trying to toss dirt in the water here, but why don't folks talk about the CZ-83 in these discussions? Just wondering...


Because the 83 is does not even come close to being a pocket pistol.

PhilR.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I think you have correctly assessed that the real question is, "is .380 an adequate self-defense round?" It is definitely hovering near the borderline, and there are lots of different opinions on the subject (most of them uninformed).

There is a wide assortment of decent guns in .380, some of them of a size and weight to make them suitable for pocket carry. I personally think that 9mm is really about the smallest acceptable CCW, yet I do often settle for carrying an LCP, rather than not being able to carry anything at all. 

A well placed shot (or, preferably, several well placed shots) with a 9mm, .40, .357, or .45 has a decent chance to stop the 'average' attacker, or at least distract him enough so you can run away. They are less affected by his size or whether he has heavy clothing, etc. Guns of these calibers are also usually built on a more user-friendly platform, meaning that it is usually a little easier to actually hit where you aim.

The .380 falls into that 'iffy' category of rounds that will probably work, if fired accurately, if the attacker isn't unusually large and strong, wearing a heavy coat, or on drugs, or any of several other factors. The effectiveness of the .380 improves a little, when fired out of a longer barrel, or a more stable platform that promotes better accuracy, but if you go up very much in size, you might as well have a 9mm.

My advice is to plan on buying at least two guns for carry. The first one should be of sufficient size and quality that you will want to go practice with it a lot. There is absolutely no substitute for marksmanship, when you are considering how to have the best CCW equipment. When you are confident with it, and have burned lots of good habits into your brain, get a good, cheap pocket gun, and start all over trying to learn to hit something with it...then don't carry it unless you just can't carry the other one. You likely will not want to practice very much with the pocket gun.

Just my opinion.


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## cvillechopper (Jan 27, 2008)

Bisley said:


> You likely will not want to practice very much with the pocket gun.


That's what I was going to say. Even my CW9 gets rough on the wrists after about 100 to 150 rounds at the range. I've seen people at the range that didn't get through 3 magazines with an LCP before they were shaking their hands and holding their wrists. Hard to be effective if you don't enjoy practice.


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## HowardCohodas (Nov 16, 2008)

Bisley said:


> I think you have correctly assessed that the real question is, "is .380 an adequate self-defense round?" It is definitely hovering near the borderline, and there are lots of different opinions on the subject (most of them uninformed).
> 
> There is a wide assortment of decent guns in .380, some of them of a size and weight to make them suitable for pocket carry. I personally think that 9mm is really about the smallest acceptable CCW, yet I do often settle for carrying an LCP, rather than not being able to carry anything at all.
> 
> ...











Perhaps Hornady's new Critical Defense Ammo might cause many of us to reevaluate our concern about the adequacy of the 380 round.

Product Spec Sheet: http://www.hornady.com/images/sell_sheets/09-critical_defense.pdf

Guns & Ammo article: http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Critical+Defense?packedargs=pagenum=2

The first listing for distribution in the retail channel that I've found is MidwayUSA. You can't order it, but you can sign up for email

notification.

Price: $18.49 for 25
Date Expected In-Stock: 11/27/2008

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=352263&t=11082005


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## Will R. (Oct 14, 2008)

I'd like to suggest the Walther PPS in 9mm to you.

I have one and it's been a great pistol for concealed carry.

Also, it's the size of a PPK/S but packs 9mm power.

Will


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

HowardCohodas said:


> Perhaps Hornady's new Critical Defense Ammo might cause many of us to reevaluate our concern about the adequacy of the 380 round.


I think that bullet technology has pretty much reached its potential, and that anything fired from an LCP or P3AT sized gun is going to be lacking in either penetration or expansion...that is, if you believe the FBI standards are valid. It's probably always going to be a choice between JHP for expansion, or FMJ for penetration.

Of course, the FBI benchmarks on expansion and penetration are not the final word on what is needed for self-defense, but they do give us something to measure by, and .380 is light by those standards.


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