# Nite Hawg review (pre-firing test)



## fivehourfrenzy

Picked up my Para Ordnance Nite Hawg today. I'll be shooting it tomorrow so I'll have a range report.

I'm very pleased with the gun so far. Ergonomically it fits my hand very well, although doesn't have the "perfect" fit like the Walther and XD did. Not a big deal whatsoever. The trigger is AMAZING...it's smooth as glass, and breaks quickly. The Walther trigger had some play, then was light, then a heavy spot, then broke. The XD was similar, but smoother. But the 1911 trigger puts both of them to shame as far as a smooth trigger pull.

Decocking it is a bit tricky one handed...the hammer needs to be pulled back a bit further so it touches the top of the grip safety and pushes it down enough to allow the trigger to be pulled to its breaking spot. Cocking the hammer back is easy, but the hand has to be moved from the grip as the grip safety's tail doesn't let you just reach up and cock it.

Now I understand why a 1911 should be carried in condition one. The thumb safety is unlike any other handgun I've handled. It seems difficult to miss the lever or slip off of it to apply to safe, or push it down to make the weapon hot. It's definitly designed to be manipulated by the firing hand without any shift in position on the gun. Very impressive.

The recoil spring is STIFF. It really takes some muscle to pull it back, and the slide catch is far enough forward that I have to reposition my hand on the gun to flick it down. However, it's obviously necessary to place it that far forward to make room for the thumb safety, despite being part of the conventional 1911 design.

I really like the sights. I *believe* they are referred to as dovetail sights. In other words, the tops aren't flat. They create an arc, and the front sight completes it. The tritium glows very bright in the dark, and when the top of the sights are perfectly lined up, the front bead sights directly between the rear beads. The sights are by Trijicon. The only complaint I have is they appear to be way too far to the left, pointing the gun a bit to the right. The rear sights are drift adjustable, so I should be able to fix it without much trouble.

The grip is extremely short, but the double-stack design widens it out, making the overall size of the grip small enough for small hands to grip steadily, but also large enough for the average hand not to wrap completely around it (like my P22). The grip is also aligned with the barrel to where the hand sits pretty vertically instead of being highly angled, which puts strain on the wrist. My first handgun (Walther P99c) demanded that the hand be angled forward...the XD, not quite as much...the Nite Hawg, none at all. Very comfortable to hold and aim.

The flat-black coating seems to have the durability of melonite. I imagine it will scratch and chip fairly easily, but that takes nothing away from the functionality of the gun.

Para ships their guns very differently from Walther. The gun is very well oiled, definitely to the point where I could wipe a bit out.

The Nite Hawg appears to have an extremely low bore axis. I've read that 1911s are notorious for having a low bore axis, which IMO the lower bore axis, the better as it causes a rearward recoil instead of flipping the muzzle.

All in all, I like it a lot. I was told by a customer service rep at Comp-Tac that appendix carry with the double-stacked 3" 1911 would probably be more difficult than an XD due to its width, but I jammed the Nite Hawg down in my waistband and appendix carry seems very doable, more so than with the XD. So I'll be ordering a Comp-Tac 2 o'clock holster like I had for the XD, and possibly another OWB from them as well.

By comparing a .45ACP cartridge to a 9mm cartridge, it's much easier to tell the difference than going by numbers. The .45 is huge compared to 9mm.


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## JeffWard

FHF,
You'll appreciate the intellectual fascination of another, watching the opinion, experience, and learning curve of a gun lover develop... I'm watching in you what happened to me, years ago... from Redhawk Revolver, shotguns and rifles, to Glock, to Kahr, to Sig, to XDs/Kel-Tec. 

I hope your new baby is not one of those painful but lasting learning experiences!!! lol!!!

PS A "dove tail" sight refers to how the sight is attached to the slide. The slot in the slide is wider at the base, than at the top (equilateral trapazoid), and the sight slides in from the side, retained by friction. Dovetails were cuts used in building construction, and eventally fine furniture constrution many, many years before your time. (Funny, I consider myself one of the "younger" guys here, but you were born about the time I was in high school.) The Para is still a "blade" or "fixed" sight, drift adjustable only, compared to a target sight that is windage and elevation adjustable with a screw driver or allen wrench.

You've found my other concern with the NiteHawg. The traditional single-stack 1911 had/has a huge advantage of being very flat (thin), which is good for carry, but very long (which is bad). The NiteHawg is short (good), but due to the doublestack mag, FAT... around 1.5".

As a CC Newbie, you will learn quickly, that thin is comfortable/concealable, and thick is not. Hence the constant balancing act between capacity, and comfort... and why I alway have a Kel-Tec on me, and carry an XD when I can.

First rule of a gunfight: Have a gun! (Even in shorts and no shirt...)

Good Luck!
Looking forward to the report!

JW


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## submoa

FHF,

Congrats on your new purchase. Handgun ownership is addictive.

Try breaking in with at least 300rd of hardball (FMJ) and let us know if that tames the recoil spring.

PS.. Gotta agree w u about the Walther grip. Wish Moroni made overmolds for other guns.


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## gmaske

Ok, you are my testing ground bro! I've been eyeing the very same pistol so you gotta let me know EVERYTHING! I'd love to see a picture of how it fills your hand. I was concerned that the grip was to short for a 45. I've been looking at the 6 round 1911 shorties that Springfield sells also. I currently shoot a 4.2" barreled 45 and wacking off another 1.2" makes it dang short!


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## Todd

Pictures! This thread us useless without pictures!


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## gmaske

*PICTURES DUDE!
NO COW BELLING ALLOWED!*
:buttkick:


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## fivehourfrenzy

Pure beauty...










With some 185gr Gold Dots...










Size pic...










This pic was tough...had to take the shot left handed from the right side...










Cocked with safety on...










Cocked with safety off...










Width pic...it's not much wider than an XD.










Hammer/safety close-up...










Another hammer/safety close-up...










I tried taking some pics of the night sights in the dark, but I couldn't get them to show up on my POS camera.


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## submoa

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Following pictures are rule II and III violations


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## fivehourfrenzy

How do you know I wasn't willing to destroy what was covered by the muzzle? I even moved my Bowflex for those pictures!!! :mrgreen:

edit: the last picture was not a violation. My finger was not on the trigger, and I would destroy my walls with a smile on my face.


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## submoa

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I would destroy my walls with a smile on my face.


RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Know what it is, what is in line with it, and_ what is behind it_. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.

- Jeff Cooper


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## fivehourfrenzy

Through the wall would be another wall, then another, then the model apartment that is vacant at this hour. So it would go through three walls of my apartment, then another three of the model apartment, then a really nice leather chair (I've been in the model), then an interior wall, then an exterior wall. It would probably stop in the chair.

OR, I could mention that I triple checked the chamber to ensure it's not loaded. Seriously, stop hijacking the thread.


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## submoa

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I triple checked the chamber to ensure it's not loaded.


RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it;e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

- Jeff Cooper

I might seem unsympathetic, but I've seen enough NDs and subsequent denials to drill safety rules whenever I see firearms handled casually, especially where it can influence others to behave likewise. I'd rather bore/nag you than see you or anyone else injured with an ND.

This guy checked the condition of his gun before his ND too, http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=13055

Now that all 4 rules have been covered, I'll stop.


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## fivehourfrenzy

I understanding your reasoning. I follow the same rules, and I never handle a firearm casually, but unless I took my guns out into the middle of nowhere, there's no way I could take pictures without tripping your nag radar.

On another note, I took the magazines apart. No wonder people have feeding problems with the last round. I half expected the spring to come rocketing out like with the XD. Barely any compression unloaded whatsoever.


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## submoa

fivehourfrenzy said:


> there's no way I could take pictures without tripping your nag radar.


Ken Lunde takes beautiful pics of guns w/o rule violations. He has tips posted. http://lundestudio.com/firearms.html#studio



fivehourfrenzy said:


> On another note, I took the magazines apart. No wonder people have feeding problems with the last round. I half expected the spring to come rocketing out like with the XD. Barely any compression unloaded whatsoever.


Highly recommend the UPLULA loaders. One UPLULA works on 9mm-.45cal double and single stack. These will save your thumbs, especially during extended range sessions:


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## fivehourfrenzy

submoa said:


> Ken Lunde takes beautiful pics of guns w/o rule violations. He has tips posted. http://lundestudio.com/firearms.html#studio
> 
> Highly recommend the UPLULA loaders. One UPLULA works on 9mm-.45cal double and single stack. These will save your thumbs, especially during extended range sessions:


He also doesn't take pictures of a handgun being held, IIRC. Note that gmaske requested pictures of the gun being held so he could make a visual size reference. I find it pointless it show a size reference picture without a finger on the trigger as it is also very important with regards to how a gun fits.

I may look into a mag loader. Getting the last round in those magazines is just plain awful on the hands.


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## Mike Barham

I'm not sure if you're demonstrating your actual shooting grip in those photos, but consider taking a higher grip. The web of the hand should be pushed up into the tang/grip safety very forcefully, so that the flesh at the web of the hand wrinkles. Also consider resting the strong thumb atop the thumb safety for best control of the pistol.


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## gmaske

Thanks for the pictures bro! You really need that mag extention to get a full hand on it don't ya. What size glove do you wear? If I read the spec.s right you only get one mag with the extention and the other has a standard plate. Is that correct? I'm dieing to know how it shoots:drooling:
I'm stealing work time so I'll ask more later.


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## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> I'm not sure if you're demonstrating your actual shooting grip in those photos, but consider taking a higher grip. The web of the hand should be pushed up into the tang/grip safety very forcefully, so that the flesh at the web of the hand wrinkles. Also consider resting the strong thumb atop the thumb safety for best control of the pistol.


I was trying to, but I wasn't. I was more focused on getting a proper left-handed grip on the camera to get a decent shot. I would try resting my thumb on top of the safety, but that puts it pressed against the slide.

RANGE REPORT IS UP!


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## Mike Barham

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I would try resting my thumb on top of the safety, but that puts it pressed against the slide.


Yes. Why is that a problem?


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## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> Yes. Why is that a problem?


Getting my thumb shredded by the slide when it cycles.


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## Mike Barham

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Getting my thumb shredded by the slide when it cycles.


Then you just aren't doing it right. The thumb exerts gentle pressure _down_, not _in_. I shoot all semiautos with a high thumb and have never been "shredded" by a slide. All champion-level semiauto shooters that I am aware of use a high thumb, which enable a higher grip, thus effectively lowering the pistol's bore axis in relation to the hand.

It's the right way to hold a pistol. Don't be afraid.


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## gmaske

Mike Barham said:


> Then you just aren't doing it right. The thumb exerts gentle pressure _down_, not _in_. I shoot all semiautos with a high thumb and have never been "shredded" by a slide. All champion-level semiauto shooters that I am aware of use a high thumb, which enable a higher grip, thus effectively lowering the pistol's bore axis in relation to the hand.
> 
> It's the right way to hold a pistol. Don't be afraid.


So you are saying that locking the right thumb down with the left thumb is a no no???


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## fivehourfrenzy

gmaske said:


> So you are saying that locking the right thumb down with the left thumb is a no no???


That's how I hold in my weaver gip. My right thumb is sat lower, and my left thumb anchors the top of it between the knuckle and joint. My left thumb sits right below the thumb safety.


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## Mike Barham

gmaske said:


> So you are saying that locking the right thumb down with the left thumb is a no no???


It's not a "no no." It's just far less efficient than shooting with thumbs high.


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## fivehourfrenzy

For one-handed shooting, I can see how a high thumb can equal into a high grip, meaning a relative lower bore axis than a low thumb. I might try that for one-handed. But the most comfortable two-handed grip is a weaver with my left thumb on top of the right.


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## PanaDP

fivehourfrenzy said:


> For one-handed shooting, I can see how a high thumb can equal into a high grip, meaning a relative lower bore axis than a low thumb. I might try that for one-handed. But the most comfortable two-handed grip is a weaver with my left thumb on top of the right.


On a 1911, a thumb on top of that safety can help recover the gun from recoil faster. It's a good little piece of leverage.


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## milquetoast

Re the NiteHawg: Very nice concept, eager to see how the function testing goes.

Re the two digressions:

- Safety.
Sorry, I don't have much of a sense of humor about this. If you insist on calling what submoa writes "nagging," then you have the wrong attitude. You are an accident waiting (trying) to happen. There is no asterisk in the safe handling rules that says "*except when taking photographs." Get over the defensiveness. Take a couple of deep, cleansing breaths, apologize to the man, and resolve to do better in the future. You just got your money's worth out of this forum; by posting your pictures, you have learned something that will make you a safer gun owner for the rest of your life.

Here's some actual constructive advice: When handling a gun in your house (including loading, unloading, disassembling, assembling, and taking pictures), point it at something that will stop a bullet. Point it at a brick wall instead of drywall. I use an old Second Chance vest. If you don't have Kevlar, make a stop box: gather all those old phone books that you used to throw away, and wrap them up with duct tape. Get a cardboard box, and fill it with your old college textbooks. Stack of plywood. Scrap steel plate backing a stack of newspapers. You get the idea. Improvise.

- Grip.
Barham is being polite. On a 1911, put your thumb on top of the safety and leave it there while shooting.


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## Mike Barham

fivehourfrenzy said:


> For one-handed shooting, I can see how a high thumb can equal into a high grip, meaning a relative lower bore axis than a low thumb. I might try that for one-handed. But the most comfortable two-handed grip is a weaver with my left thumb on top of the right.


Gunsite, _the_ place to learn the Modern Technique (of which the Weaver Stance is an integral part), always teaches a high thumb grasp on the pistol, whether shooting one or two-handed.

It's all right if you don't adopt the right techniques now. You will - at least if you want to progress as a shooter.


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## fivehourfrenzy

milquetoast said:


> Re the NiteHawg: Very nice concept, eager to see how the function testing goes.
> 
> Re the two digressions:
> 
> - Safety.
> Sorry, I don't have much of a sense of humor about this. If you insist on calling what submoa writes "nagging," then you have the wrong attitude. You are an accident waiting (trying) to happen. There is no asterisk in the safe handling rules that says "*except when taking photographs." Get over the defensiveness. Take a couple of deep, cleansing breaths, apologize to the man, and resolve to do better in the future. You just got your money's worth out of this forum; by posting your pictures, you have learned something that will make you a safer gun owner for the rest of your life.
> 
> Here's some actual constructive advice: When handling a gun in your house (including loading, unloading, disassembling, assembling, and taking pictures), point it at something that will stop a bullet. Point it at a brick wall instead of drywall. I use an old Second Chance vest. If you don't have Kevlar, make a stop box: gather all those old phone books that you used to throw away, and wrap them up with duct tape. Get a cardboard box, and fill it with your old college textbooks. Stack of plywood. Scrap steel plate backing a stack of newspapers. You get the idea. Improvise.
> 
> - Grip.
> Barham is being polite. On a 1911, put your thumb on top of the safety and leave it there while shooting.


Nagging is when something is being repeated AFTER the point has been made. submoa's point was made. I'm not here to argue where or not he was truly and technically nagging...that's not the point.

The point is I am extremely cautious and keep firearm safety at the top of my list. You might say that I'm being arrogant and foolish to say I'm extremely cautious, but what else should I say? Should I say I'm not cautious? The truth is I am. I've taken the responsibility of owning a gun and being a safe, responsible gun owner, and I intend to keep it that way.

Now, if you're going by the context that even if I have verified the firearm is completed unloaded before taking pictures but you can't verify because you're not physically there, it's just that...you're not physically there, and can't be harmed by a ND. That's not to say that I can't, but since I stick to triple checking a chamber after dropping the magazine, then theoretically, I should never experience a ND. When I handle a firearm, my safety and the safety of those who could potentially be harmed by a ND are my top concern...so, again theoretically speaking, if I am vigilant (sp?) 100% of the time, a ND will not occur, nor will it occur through a picture on a computer screen.

Trust me, I've seen what a bullet can do. I take every precaution to make sure I am safe with a firearm at all times. And although you can't assume I'm being 100% safe with a firearm while taking pictures, you can't assume I'm not. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I'm ignorant, unintelligent, or just plain stupid. If anything, it means I have a higher ability to learn and retain information than someone 10 or 20 years older than me. Don't take that as a direct insult, because with age comes time, with time comes experience, and with experience comes wisdom.

I can't say, "I've been there, done that" like most of you. But with firearm safety, I don't need a "been there, done that" incident to make me a safe gun owner. I can sit here and say I'm 100% safe...whether or not I'm telling the truth or whether or not you believe me is irrelevant to the fact that being safe 100% of the time is necessary, and also the best you can do. I'm not sitting here arguing with anyone about the necessity of proper safety standards with a deadly weapon. I don't need to see someone accidentally get shot to know the consequences because others have done it before me (and it's common sense since it's a gun).

I realize the preaching I'm receiving is in the best interest for me, and those around me, and is only done out of concern and sincerity. What you're saying is not falling on deaf ears, but my defensive attitude came from the implied "you're not being safe with your guns because you're taking pictures of them." If that's not what was implied, great, but that's still how I took it. I pride myself in being responsible with anything, whether it be making it to work on time, being a safe driver, being a friend, or handling my firearms in the safest way possible, and anything implying that I don't is yes, an insult.

Yes, you always assume a firearm is loaded until you can personally check, double-check, and triple-check that it is not, and from that point forward, you still treat it as if it were loaded. I think that's where the preaching came about is because I had my finger on the trigger with a cocked hammer and safety off. I realize that may not be treating a firearm as if it were loaded, but if you ALWAYS treat a firearm as if it were loaded, how do you go about dry-firing? I guess that's where the bullet-proof box would come in handy, which I personally think is a great idea. Still, if I treated the firearm as if it were loaded, I wouldn't shoot it at a box in my apartment, but I think we're coming to some terms here.

submoa is right...if I treat every firearm as if it were loaded, I should not have had my finger on the trigger with a cocked hammer and safety off, and I should've had it pointed at something that would stop a bullet. BUT, submoa's post came across as an accusation that I wasn't a safe and responsible gun owner, at which point I will get defensive because I am a safe and responsible gun owner. It's true, you can never be too safe, but I do as much as I can to be as safe as possible, and anything that implies that's not true is an insult. In other words, reminding me of proper firearm safety is fine, acceptable, and constructive. Reminding me of proper firearm safety and implying that I'm not at all doing it just turns into an attack. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but that's just how it came across at the time I read it.

To touch on the thumb safety issue, the safety sits right next to the slide, and getting any kind of good leverage on it (pushing down with my right thumb) presses it up against the slide at least a little bit. Even if it is the proper way to hold and fire a 1911, simply put, I don't feel safe doing it. If I put my thumb on top and push down, it either slides off easily, or if it's got a steady grip on it, it's touching the slide. I'm not familiar with the wide array of 1911s, and it's possible the larger models have a wider thumb safety. According to my ruler, the flat section of the top of the safety is only 1/8" wide, and it's slighter less than 1/8" to the slide from the inner most edge of the safety. To get any kind of grip on the safety with my thumb requires touching the slide, and I've read numerous times that you should keep clear of the slide when firing (which is also common sense). I'm not arguing that's it the proper way to fire a 1911...the simple fact is I can't get a grip on it without touching the slide, which is why I don't feel safe doing it.


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## BeefyBeefo

I don't mean to jump in here, but I don't think anyone meant to insult you _fivehourfrenzy_. I also don't think that anyone was assuming you hadn't checked it multiple times. The truth is, if I were taking pictures, then I could have my finger running along the side of the gun to get a _good enough_ idea of the the trigger reach. I would NEVER put my finger on the trigger no matter how many times I had checked the chamber unless I was at the firing range and ready to fire, or ready to fire to defend myself. I may be wrong here, but I believe that this is where most people were coming from, and that is where I would have been coming from myself had I said anything in the first place. Don't take this offensive in any way, I'm just saying what I THINK everyone else meant, as well as what I would do in this scenario. I see where you're coming from, but I also see where others are coming from. If it was me, I wouldn't have done it the way you did, but I'm not saying it's totally wrong. This is only the way that *I* look at it, so take it for what it is 

-Jeff-
Be safe and be happy.


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## fivehourfrenzy

I think I read too much into it. I do plan on making one of those boxes full of phone books, sounds like a cool idea.


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## gmaske

FHF
Without getting in to the middle of the whole debate on proper gun handling I would like to commend you on your cool and level head through this. Frankly the only real mistake (that could have been questionable) was the cocked hammer. It is true that some of the photos don't represent "correct" gun handling to a casual browser so we'll *ALL* learn a lesson from it. Anyway thanks for the pictures that showed what I needed to see that appears to have come at your expence. Most people would have said an F U and left the forum. The Seals are getting some good raw material for sure! I'm in your debt:smt023


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## fivehourfrenzy

Lol, thanks for the props. To comment on the SEAL thing, I've been doing my homework and I'm starting to lean towards the Army. Airborne and Ranger schools for sure, then get as far as I can toward an elite special forces unit, or sniper school if I'm up to the challenge.

But as for the improper gun handling, submoa was correct in his statements. However, I do practice safe and responsible handling of any firearms, including mine, and I don't want people thinking that I handle them casually, even if that's what the pictures depicted. The hammer was not cocked and my finger was not placed on the trigger until I was absolutely sure there was no possibility of the gun discharging a bullet.

On a second note, I ordered some Comp-Tac holsters...the 2 o'clock IWB and Gladiator OWB last night, and the order processed this morning, so within two weeks or so I should have some more pics, as well as more range reports. I've got 150 rounds through it so far, and once I break 500 the gun should be fairlyl broken in, and I'll be able to tell you exactly what to expect if you get one. But one thing's for sure...I'll be keeping this sucker around for awhile!


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## Mike Barham

Sigh.

Thumb atop the safety is _perfectly_ safe.  If it weren't, the technique wouldn't be in use by virtually every single champion-level pistol shooter, literally tens of thousands of graduates of Gunsite and similar Modern Technique schools, and almost every competitor in IPSC and IDPA regardless of classification. I have _never_ been injured by a moving slide in firing tens of thousands of rounds from autos. What you "feel" and what is actually true are two different things.

PM me if you need info on Army schools. I am good friends with some snipers. On the other hand, if you are afraid of the little slide on your pistol, perhaps you should reconsider Ranger school. Sometimes Rangers have to do things that aren't very safe. :mrgreen:


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## fivehourfrenzy

Tell yah what. Next time I'm at the range I'll give it a try. I have to admit that thumb atop the safety does move the grip up right along side the barrel, so it seems it would give excellent control for one-handed firing. However, it feels extremely odd for a two-handed weaver grip. I'll play around with it at the range and see what I come up with. I'm not really afraid of it, but from holding it it just seems there's no way I could get a good grip on it without getting hit by the slide. But at least to me, it's worth a try. I'll either discover a great method of one-handed firing, or I'll prove Mr. Barham wrong, the latter costing me the use of my thumb for a couple of weeks, but at least I'd prove you wrong! :anim_lol:

On the flip side, I've found a handgun I'm sure I'll stick with for awhile. It's got the 10-round capacity of most subcompact 9mm handguns, has controllable recoil, is reliable with the right ammo, and packs the punch of a .45ACP. I'm pretty happy, and hopefully by the end of the week a Benelli 12-gauge will join the family.


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## Mike Barham

As taught at Gunsite, lay the thumb of the non-firing hand atop the strong thumb. This allows the "drumstick" of the weak thumb joint to lay against the grip panel, further enhancing two-handed control.

http://www.rifleforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22&d=1179244678


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## fivehourfrenzy

Feels awkward but I'll give it a shot. It means I have to move my left hand up a bit so it doesn't resemble a weaver much anymore. I'll try it and see.


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## Mike Barham

Can you post a picture of your version of Weaver?


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## fivehourfrenzy

Not unless I can train my dog to take pictures. :mrgreen: I'll get my roommate to take a shot or two tomorrow.


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## gmaske

I really like the .45ACP in that for me it is pretty comfortable to shoot also so I'm with ya on that score. I've been tempted by the Nite Hawg as it has night sights and is really small but, I'm seriously looking at the Para PCX745R. It's a pretty neat pistol and it's fairly small also. I said it before but if money weren't an object I'd buy the Nite Hawg, the PCX745R which is a light weight officer's model, and a 5" barreled one just for range shooting. Allas I'd be going out on a limb just buying any one of the above right now. My head got really turned around about two weeks ago when I shot that guys high capacity full sized Para 45. It made an instant by half improvement in group size over my Ruger P345. Having never shot a 1911 and being my first mag through the pistol that's pretty dang impressive. I'll be trying the thumb up style myself this weekend although I don't have a safety in the right place to rest on.


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## Mike Barham

gmaske said:


> I'll be trying the thumb up style myself this weekend although I don't have a safety in the right place to rest on.


Not a problem. I shoot Glocks (no manual safety) from Modern Isosceles with the correct high thumb. Even from Weaver on a "safety-less" gun, the high thumb is very beneficial, especially on guns that torque in recoil - like .45ACPs.


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## Charlie

fivehourfrenzy,
Probably the only thing you could do to get these guys off your case about gun handling would be to take a close up pic of the chamber and mag well showing NO bullets. Geezz, lots of anality creepin' around here. :anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## submoa

fivehourfrenzy said:


> BUT, submoa's post came across as an accusation that I wasn't a safe and responsible gun owner, at which point I will get defensive because I am a safe and responsible gun owner. It's true, you can never be too safe, but I do as much as I can to be as safe as possible, and anything that implies that's not true is an insult.


Since you have invoked the name of the almighty subMOA, I shall respond.

Firearms are a responsibility. And the oft quoted 4 Handgun Safety Rules is nothing to take lightly or casually.

Pictures and comments in a public forum are viewed by people with different levels of experience and training. Some with none at all. Posts that violate or 'appear to violate' any or all of the handgun safety rules influence novices that unsafe practices are OK. In retrospect, I should have been harsher to drive home the message to novices that unsafe handling of firearms is not only wrong, but definitely uncool.

Identifying safety rule violations in posts might offend your ego but in the end, I'm sure you'd feel a lot worse if a novice had an ND influenced by your posts.


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## MLB

Thanks for the review FHF.

The pics caught my attention too, but really, how many posts laced with personal attacks does it take to make a simple point?! Sheesh!


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## fivehourfrenzy

submoa said:


> I'm sure you'd feel a lot worse if a novice had an ND influenced by your posts.


I could sit here all day and argue with you, but it's not gonna make any difference whatsoever. You've made your point about firearms safety and safe handling, which none of us will dispute. However, trying to say that a novice might have a ND because of the pictures I posted is stretching it. If someone who is new to firearms is dumb enough to look at pictures and think they should cock a hammer back and put their finger on a trigger of a gun they don't even know how to check its status, then they're gonna have a ND at some point, regardless of the pictures they look or looked at. I'm not gonna sit here and take blame for a ND that may or may not happen. Each and every individual owner should take the responsibility of learning how to safely handle any kind of firearm before even going near one, and know what's safe and what's not. And if I were new to handguns, I wouldn't be reading a public forum on tips how to handle one safely as any public forum can have misleading information, which is what you're saying I've given anyone who looks at the thread. I would personally have a qualified individual show me the basics, and take a firearms safety course, and if I had a ND, I sure as hell wouldn't blame it on some guy on an internet forum, and blame it on the pictures he put up.

submoa, you've made your point. I'm a horrible accident waiting to happen, a complete disgrace to responsible gun owners, and a juvenile 22-year old who is completely ignorant regarding much more experienced gun owners, and for all that I should be banished from guns, the internet, photographs, and probably the country.

Yeah, I know that's not your point, but your point was made days ago.


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## Todd

Since we've gone way off topic form the original gun review and turned this into a gun safety thread, complete with personal attacks, there's no point in keeping it open.


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