# Looking for lifepartner



## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

strange title, I know, but you'll understand here in a second. 

I'm not new to handguns per se', I've been playing with the Barreta m9 (or 92fs) for years now as the navy's standard handgun of choice. When it come's to anything else however, I've only fired a glock and a taurus 9mm that was so small the magazine actually had an indent on it to serve as a part of the grip, which just barely gave me somewhere to put my pinky finger (or 5th phallange if you will)

after this deployment I'm in I'll at last be able to purchase and carry my own handgun, but which to choose, which to choose. 

we all know their are practically infinite choices, and most of you own multiple handguns, I'm sure. I myself would LOVE to own a whole armada's worth, but I find myself with other passions that also require and investment of money, and a lack of money. so back to the strange title name. 

You've heard, no doubt, the quote "Beware the man who own's only one gun, he probably know's how to use it". Well, thats the initial idea behind this. I want a handgun that will last my whole life. One that I can depend on if china invades, if my home get's burgled, or if the bank I happen to be wishing I had more money in is being held up by armed me (granted if china invades I'm going to the nearest base, flashing id, and heading for the armory anyways, I'd like to be able to get there with my long arm and a back up, and no I have no current belief or reason to believe china is invading up, tis but a exaggerative example))

I'm looking for a weapon that nearly never has a stoppage, has a high service life, and very few (or rare and far between) nessacary part replacements. I'm looking for sub 1" to 1.75" 5 round grouping's at 25 yards. I don't like grip style safeties, fixed sights with high visability in low light are a must. double/single action is a must. a weapon that can be feildstripped (in the true sense, meaning, no special tools nessacary). 
American made for american defense. 

I haven't yet chosen a specific caliber. I know for a fact 9mm DOES provide sufficient stopping power, however that doesn't mean I'd rather forgo the double tap for a .45 acp. right now I'm torn between 9mm, .40 s&w and .45 acp. but I'm still open to change my mind on this. 

I don't want a particularly small weapon. I expect accuracy and as such I know this inherently means a longer barrel (typically) however I intend to carry as well and don't want the whole world to see my D.E. though my jacket like superman. The weapon I choose ultimately has to suit my hand. I'll compile a list of weapons which suit my needs and I'll find them one by one, checking to see which my hands prefer.

this being the criteria I avidly await criticism, help, suggestions and pointers. 

I've looked at some kimber's and don't like the rust issue I keep hearing about, though I might be tempted to get one anyways and have it specially coated elsewhere. 

I've looked at colt's series 70 but saw that is was single action only (which I'm now realizing might be a 1911 thing more than just a colt thing, are 1911's all single action?)

I like the m9, but I hear alot of crap from people who DON'T like them. and I know baretta makes larger caliber's as well. I'm looking into alot of different stuff but ultimately I'd like to see what you guys have to say. 

one more thing. price. this being my one weapon that I intend to very well know how to use, initial price is not a concern so much life time cost. that said I won't pay 3k or more for a handgun. for that much I could get my hands on half the materials needed to make my own. 2.5k is probably my max unless I truly fall in love with something just under 3, but no more than that


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Oh boy...where to begin? When in doubt start at the top and work your way down I guess. I'm cutting out the bulk of your post and addressing what I consider to be the meat and potatoes of your post.



Gunners_Mate said:


> I'm looking for a weapon that nearly never has a stoppage, has a high service life, and very few (or rare and far between) nessacary part replacements. I'm looking for sub 1" to 1.75" 5 round grouping's at 25 yards. I don't like grip style safeties, fixed sights with high visability in low light are a must. *double/single action is a must*. a weapon that can be feildstripped (in the true sense, meaning, no special tools nessacary).
> American made for american defense.


OK, right here we have some issues we need cleared up.

You say nearly never has a stoppage...all guns will fail at some point, you seem to grasp that concept well. High service life...what do you consider to be a high service life? Here's the part we really need to address, SUB 1" groups? I don't think that's a realistic factor. Sub 1.75" can be done in high end 1911s but as you don't like grips safeties, I don't know what to tell you. There are a couple 1911 makers that will guarantee 1.5" @ 25, but I've never heard the claim from anyone else. Keep in mind, these guarantees mean from a rest with a particular ammunition. Guns need work to reach that level of accuracy and in the 1911s you will probably need a bushing wrench at the minimum. As for "American Made" do you mean MADE IN AMERICA, or American owned? The two are not the same. As for DA/SA being a must...WHY? You're ruling out a lot of nice guns and almost everyone that will meet your accuracy requirement, and I'm not just talking about the 1911. There are several very accurate SAO guns out there other than the 1911 such as the Sig 220 Match, X5, etc.



> I haven't yet chosen a specific caliber. I know for a fact 9mm DOES provide sufficient stopping power, however that doesn't mean I'd rather forgo the double tap for a .45 acp. right now I'm torn between 9mm, .40 s&w and .45 acp. but I'm still open to change my mind on this.


If accuracy is your major concern, and you expect to find something that lives up to it, find the gun/platform first, worry about caliber later.


> this being the criteria I avidly await criticism, help, suggestions and pointers.
> 
> I've looked at some kimber's and don't like the rust issue I keep hearing about, though I might be tempted to get one anyways and have it specially coated elsewhere.


Kimber probably won't meet your accuracy requirements, and I gotta ask, if you don't want a grip safety, or SAO, why are you looking at 1911s to begin with? You need to reevaluate what you want and what you need. Kimbers parts quality and overall QC is also suspect to many, but hey I'm biased and I freely admit that I am so when it comes to Kimber.



> I've looked at colt's series 70 but saw that is was single action only (which I'm now realizing might be a 1911 thing more than just a colt thing, are 1911's all single action?)


Yes and no, all genuine real deal 1911s are SAO, Para makes a 1911_*ish*_ DAO 1911, but that is still out of your parameters of DA/SA being a must. Again, to get your accuracy requirement, you need to look at the Special Combat line from Colt, but if you want DA/SA and don't like grip safeties, your SOL.



> I like the m9, but I hear alot of crap from people who DON'T like them. and I know baretta makes larger caliber's as well. I'm looking into alot of different stuff but ultimately I'd like to see what you guys have to say.


I don't think you're going to get your accuracy requirement out of the box with a Beretta. Speaking of which, regarding your accuracy requirement, are we talking out of the box or after a couple trips to a gunsmith?



> one more thing. price. this being my one weapon that I intend to very well know how to use, initial price is not a concern so much life time cost. that said I won't pay 3k or more for a handgun. for that much I could get my hands on half the materials needed to make my own. 2.5k is probably my max unless I truly fall in love with something just under 3, but no more than that


As you're open to input, I have to suggest Wilson Combat, Les Baer, or Ed Brown. I don't know if Brown has an accuracy guarantee but Wilson and Baer do.

About the only other options that come to mind that even come close to your requirements might be a Sig 226 Elite or Combat (I would suggest the X5, but it's not what I would consider a carry friendly gun), they are made in NH but foreign owned, they may or may not meet your requirements for accuracy, but in my opinion what your asking for in a fighting pistol is somewhat askew from what one really needs. That level of accuracy will detract from reliability. Wilson and Baer seem to do it right, and I've heard the same said for Brown but if you don't want a $2K 1911 I don't know what to tell you regarding the accuracy. A CZ 75 Shadow should meet all your requirements other than being US made. The HKP30L should also be a contender as I recall some reports where it has met you accuracy requirements.

Now I'm not saying that other guns can't do this type of accuracy, but it takes a little more work than just ordering up a gun, opening the box and going to the range.

I understand where you're coming from in the accuracy dept, having a gun that is mechanically capable of shooting insanely tight groups from a rest is a nice thing and a good confidence builder, but actually being able to shoot to the guns potential @ 25 yards is something else.

Parting thoughts:

You need to take another look at trigger types, without argument statistically speaking the Glock is the most reliable gun out there, but it does not meet any of your requirements, but can be enhanced without much compromise in terms of overall performance.

You need to reevaluate the "US made" aspect. I like buying American, but in terms of pistols, some of the best options are foreign made or owned, especially in 9mm and .40.

Regarding accuracy, if you buy a gun capable of such accuracy, you need to feed it ammo capable of meeting those expectations.

Regarding price, you don't need to spend $3K on a gun to get what you're looking for.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Here's some accuracy stats. I am in now way stating that every gun from these makers will do the same, but it does show some interesting findings. Obviously these tests were done by some different folk and we can't guarantee a 100% identical test procedure/variables, it provides a good reference. All of these are at 25 yards from an rested position.

Kimber Gold Match II










NHC 10-8










NHC Custom Dominator










STI Spartan










*RIA Match *: LOW COST-Tight Groups










Colt Combat Elite


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

I need to disect your post as much as you mine, if not more, so I'm just going to embolden after certain points.



VAMarine said:


> Oh boy...where to begin? When in doubt start at the top and work your way down I guess. I'm cutting out the bulk of your post and addressing what I consider to be the meat and potatoes of your post.
> 
> OK, right here we have some issues we need cleared up.
> 
> ...


you never mentioned what I said about field stripping, and what do you mean about accuracy detracting from reliability? a more accurate weapon is more likely to produce a stoppage or will require more major maintenance over time?

alas I feel woefully ignorant with the m9 being my only real handgun knowledge base (with a little bit of the sig 229 mixed in ((m11))


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

> I was/am trained on the da/sa baretta m9, every bit of muscle memory I have is upon that 16lb double pull and 6 lb single. I just feel like it would be crazy akward to have to cock the hammer first.


OK, stop right there. A single action only pattern semi-auto is NOT carried hammer down, the hammer is cocked and a thumb safety is engaged.

Read this article and follow the links.
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm



> i might be insane but I think the da/sa would be the faster option between the two, after all as your non dominant hand comes up to mate with the weapon and your dominant the direction of your thumb is towards the muzzle, not down away, the quickest way to set the positioning of your hands is impeded by needing to pull the hammer back, and the idea of doing it with your dom hand is even more akward. I dunno how anyone does it. if I can choose between the two i'm going da/sa with out a doubt. unless I can be convinced otherwise, and muscle memory can be rebuilt after all.


Your understanding of a SAO auto is flawed.

In your other thread you say you've been in two years as a gunners mate, correct?

How much actual pistol training (time wise) do you have, hours, days, months? How often do you practice? Unless you're doing hours of dry firing a week working both the DA and SA portion of the M9 trigger, you don't have half the muscle memory you think you do. Not trying to be jerk, but one week of dry fire here and there and an annual qualification does not make anyone Jesus with a pistol. Military pistol instruction for those other than your secret squirrel types has always been sub-par.



> I recently read an article on the kimber gold classic ll and it shot between 1.75 and nearly 1" with differet ammunitions from a bench rest. as for the grip safety, I'm opposed to it mostly because it's different. what kind of "pull" (granted it would be more of a push) do those usually require? if it's relatively little I might be game, but still there's just the whole design of it that would have to be set up perfectly to my liking considering a relatively large part of the back of the grip pivots into a different position.


I don't know how to give a metric for that, it doesn't take much pressure and what pressure is needed/ease of deactivation varies pending on what exact type of grip safety is used.



> you never mentioned what I said about field stripping, and what do you mean about accuracy detracting from reliability? a more accurate weapon is more likely to produce a stoppage or will require more major maintenance over time?


Field stripping of a 1911 is not as difficult as some make it out to be, but it is not as easy as say a Glock. You get more mechanical accuracy by tweaking on the original design. Less movement between the parts = a tighter more accurate gun. Making the gun tighter by reducing tolerances can make a gun run not as well.

A barrel bushing is a piece of metal that holds the barrel in the slide, the barrel rides in the bushing and when the slide is in battery, the barrel is held in place by the bushing. A tighter bushing to barrel fit will remove play in the barrel-bushing-slide. As this gets tighter, the ability to remove it by hand is degraded and a "bushing wrench" is used to remove the bushing.

In a bushing-less gun gun the barrel mates up to the slide. I have some pictures of the differences, but have yet to upload them but they are at home.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Welcome, and thank you for your service to America.

I'm thinking Springfield TRP in .45 ACP. It's what I think I would buy, if I was only gonna have one pistol, and was not concerned with concealment. I've never handled one, but I have two other Springfields and I'm impressed with their quality and reliability, as well as being pleased with the fit and finish, and accuracy. 

Truthfullly, though, if I was going to be using a pistol in a combat environment, I might just want a ~$500 Glock, in either 10mm, or .45ACP, simply because of the simplicity and dependability. I've just purchased a 10mm recently, my first Glock, and I like it, so that may be influencing my opinion. It's not American made, and I doubt if it will do 1.75" at 25 yards, consistently. But it's a workhorse that likely would not let you down, and it is an accurate handgun - just not match quality.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

A 1.5 group @ 25+ will be a target weapon and therefore not work well for any other uses. Being it will be really tight to help make that killer group there isn't any room for dust, dirt, powder foul, air..All the things that combat type weapons have room for but you lose a little on the group. You can actually with a more practical weapon. Although with a good bit of practice you can get one of those sloppy old tidings to group really well after the shooter learns all the little quirks that will assuredly be seen soon after the first mag is dropped. So basically the idea of a combat tack driver just is not gonna happen unless you get pretty good with your weapon. I can get 3"- groups at 50 yards with most my 1911's and my 226 Sig. My 229 is close but it starts getting a little squirrelly at those kind of ranges. any of mine will hit a paper plate all day long at out to 50 yards. That's plenty good enough for the needs specified in the OPs post. And they are much more reliable than the 1.5 weapon being there's placers for things to get into. And things like getting into placers. It's what things do. find a place.And some thing is in it.

So, really. Just about any of the quality manufacturers can supply you with what you need. It's all a matter of what fits you best. So get out there. Pick up a bunch of them. And at some point you will find one that feels better than all the others. It's all a matter of what grip angle, width, length, etc does it for you.

Check out a 220 Sig...To hell and back reliability and no grip safety. And you can get one with night sights. THey don't have a true adjustable sight but those are pretty much for target weapons anyway. You want to know that the sight isn't moving around when those pesky Chinese come anyway. And they can be moved if need be to allow you to hold it as you see fit.

Oh Thanks for your service, There are many of us out there that do truly appreciate out men and women that choose yo defend this country.....and welcome to the forum from the Great state of Ky.:smt1099


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

_I'm just throwing this out there as I've seen it posted a time or two on multiple forums, this is not pointed at anyone in particular.
_
Regarding the too tight 1911s...

I've found that most people that claim that a too tight 1911 is bad for "combat this, combat that" have never owned a 1911 of that variety, have never been in combat, or a mixture of the two.

A couple points I want to make.

USMC MEU-SOC Force Recon pistols were provided by Springfield Armory's custom shop: These are not loose guns. 
USMC MARSOC Det-1 (now disbanded) had Kimber Warrior 1911s: These are not loose guns.
FBI HRT is another customer of Springfield's Custom shop, and they are still not "loose" guns.

If FORCE RECON MARINES are* choosing* (not getting stuck with, but going out and selecting these guns) guns that are "too tight", shouldn't that tell you something?

My wife and I both carry, shoot, and train with a Wilson Combat Professional and a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. I'm not even going to try and guess the round counts from training classes, range trips, IDPA etc. But neither one of us has had a stoppage, failure, malfunction, etc. in almost three years of using these two guns. During one class my "loose fitting" Colt started choking after 100 rounds, the Baer kept plugging away.

Here is one article regarding a "too tight" 1911

*2k Round Challenge Results (Manky Picturey Goodness Inside)*

I have no doubt that my gun would do the same, as well as my wife's Wilson.

I really have to ask how many people here have actual fist hand experience over a couple years with these too tight 1911s to say that they are less capable than a more loosely fitted gun and have you actually tested them in an unforgiving environment?

As long as the gun is correctly built, "too tight" should never be a factor.

*Edited to add:

There are rumors that the USMC as not as happy with their Kimbers and Springfield compared to their inhouse USMC armorer built Colts. Also of note is that the FBI guns did have some issues which have never been fully disclosed, but were resolved.
*


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

How many rounds between cleanings?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

DevilsJohnson said:


> How many rounds between cleanings?


Can't speak for the Wilson as that's the wife's responsibility, but the Baer's ran from 500-1500 with nothing but a quick wipe down.

I'm thinking I'm going to fill a bucket up with...something, dunk the gun, let it sit and see what happens. Seems that's what people like/need to see to believe something...

I've never seen intentional not cleaning as a good measure of reliability and I think it's kind of silly unrealistic to go 30,000 rounds with no cleaning, but whatever floats your whistle.

Another point to ponder, everyone likes to claim that the WWII era 1911s were made loose to accommodate for dirt, debris, etc. but on all accounts they were made loose to ensure parts compatibility between the manufactures. Even then, they really aren't that loose. When you start getting into arsenal rebuilds etc. you may find more play, but when you have an original slide/frame they aren't that loose.

Original Gov't 1911 and Commercial models are generally tighter than the A1 and they passed this:



> A torture test was conducted on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would  be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.


So I guess I'll go to Menards tonight and pick up some media to fill a bucket with.

What do you guys want me to bury the Baer in? Anything but snow and kitty litter is fair game as long as I can find it. It's an hour and a half drive round trip to Lowes or Home Depot, so I'm limited...Play ground sand? Potting soil?


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm pretty sure I'll get more rounds through a Mil-Spec than most can a target weapon. . Being I was the one that brought it up in this thread I thought I might try and see if we can resolve the issue. 

You are right., I've not been in combat. It wasn't for a lack of trying but my spine and right knee would not cooperate with me enough to do it. I've had degenerative disc disease from 17 (3 discs then..I'm up to 5 now that are bad). I blew the knee wrestling in my freshman year in high schoo.l I have been a 1911 carrier from way back. All kinds from higher end Wilson, Les Baer, and the horrid Kimbers of several varieties. During that time I was great at the range with any of these but you were not going to get a lot of rounds between cleanings. The tighter tolerances while making it more accurate can and most often will cause problems. Just like the M16 when compared to an AK. There is nowhere for the crap to go. Now I'm not going to get into a pissing contest between a an AR and AK. It's just a simple truth. When you are out and about. Things get in places and you will not stop it. And yeah I own both an AR and AK. I've sen first hand just how much you can work them hard and still get them to work.

What is the number one reason for a weapon to fail? Is it a spring? Bushing? Sear? No it's not. If it was then I guess that soldiers would carry a bunch of gun parts. Dirt, powder, gummed up lube. These things will cause a weapon to fail more often than a part of the weapon that breaks. I replace springs on my 1911's after a few thousand rounds. You can see the recoil spring will be shorter than it was when it first went in. I do not think I could say I'm not going to clean my weapon because it's not an issue. and when you have less room for said debris what's going to happen?

No, you got me..I wasn't good enough to go into service. Nothing like yet another reminder of what I consider one of the biggest failures of my life. I signed up. I was set to go. But back in the early 80's they could afford to be a little picky and the guy with the dead guys tendon in his leg and the spine that allowed me to be .75 inches shorter after 4 years of high school was not what they thought was worth the effort.So a fighting machine I might not be but I am pretty sharp. I've spent years working on weapons of all kinds. I've taken classes to with the hope of being a gunsmith or at the least an armorer, and have put that knowledge to work. and no matter how hard you try you will not get 10 pounds of crap in an 8 pound bag. Something has to give. 

Now I'm not saying that a weapon has to be sloppy. But target weapons do not make good combat weapons.If they did then everyone would want them and they would carry them. But real tight weapons and big old target sights are just not made for daily carry.Sure there will be exceptions to the rule. But I know when it's my life on the line the last thing I want to have to think about is when was the last time I cleaned it. So I'll take my Springer or my Para 1911 that I rebuilt and know how far it can go before it gets funky. The before mentioned weapons (Les, kimbers etc.) while very good shooters could start to act up after 750-1000 rounds. I can shoot 2-3 times that with my Springer or my Para. I don't think it's a good idea to do that. But I could. So the crap that gets into a weapon while you pack it around in the back woods here in Ky is not so much a concern for me. Abnd that';s just the 1911 angle.

What about Glock, Sig Sauer, and the rest that arm people all over the globe? I'm sure any of these could use to be tightened up to get better groups. But they are not built that way for a reason. Because they are expected to work...No matter that. If it was not the exception and not the rule. Then all the gun makers would build tighter weapons. Because along with reliability....Accuracy is very important.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

It's not the bucket of dirt that is of any interest to me. It's being able to wear it while I'm out in the world. I am not afforded the luxury of the ideal situation where stuff does not get into my weapon. I am out here in the woods. Where we have cattle to feed. a garden that needs tended. I use the premise of long spans of not cleaning as a way of illustrating how debris will effect the function of a weapon. It don't have to be a bajillion rounds. But we are on premise beach after all. So any what if will do.


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

VAMarine said:


> OK, stop right there. A single action only pattern semi-auto is NOT carried hammer down, the hammer is cocked and a thumb safety is engaged.
> 
> Read this article and follow the links.
> http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm
> ...


as for putting your baer into some media to test some crazy form of reliability no one should require this. if in the most unrealistic situations gunfolk will find a way to maintain their weapon to a high degree, thus rendering testing under absurd conditions nothing more than an interesting conversation point, or a bragging right for some.


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## SaltyDog (Jan 1, 2009)

VAMarine said:


> What do you guys want me to bury the Baer in? Anything but snow and kitty litter is fair game as long as I can find it. It's an hour and a half drive round trip to Lowes or Home Depot, so I'm limited...Play ground sand? Potting soil?


Honey and nuts?:mrgreen:


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Some fine silica sand might produce interesting results.

tumbleweed


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## MonsterB (Oct 25, 2009)

Gunners, I dont have any experience with the 1911 but to take appart the glock is suer simple. You clear it, pull the trigger, pull the slide back a bit, pull down on the little slide release lever, and the slide comes right off...pull out the mainspring anx barrel, and its field stripped...I am by no means a gun expert but a few weeks ago I timed myself field stripping it and then putting it back together, took 19 seconds on the second try, somebody good could probably do it in 1/2 that


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

SaltyDog said:


> Honey and nuts?:mrgreen:


:anim_lol:Only if we're talking about ground up Cheerios.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

*Getting back on topic...*



> Great article, those are some unusual condition codes. it seems weird to me, however, to cwc for any amount of time with a fully cocked weapon. any time we store a weapon we remove any and all spring tension we can from the weapon. some weapons, such as the m4, require the hammer to be cocked before putting on safety, so we store it on fire instead, though when issued we do cock and safe the weapon. I suppose that ultimately I'm at a crossroads. obviously this spring tension on 1911's mainspring all day long must have little to no effect on the weapon's lifespan, otherwise it'd have never lasted as long as it has.


Exactly. Carrying C&L is not as common as it once was with the increase/popularity of DA/SA, DAO, and various striker fired guns.



> you'll never hear any claims of jesus-hood from me, far from it. I'm better than your average guy, but thats not saying much at all. I have gone through a tad more weapons training than your average sailor, but it's of no consequence, you are correct, I don't train weekly (though not that way by choice). I could retrain myself rather easily, I suppose it's mostly just preference to maintain what I already know and practice in uniform


 Fair enough, I'm glad to hear you have a little more hands on than the average guy.



> compare to an m9 if you'd please, as I haven't yet gotten my hands on a glock besides to fire a couple mags.


Here's a good LINK to the take down process including the bushing wrench.



> as for putting your baer into some media to test some crazy form of reliability no one should require this. if in the most unrealistic situations gunfolk will find a way to maintain their weapon to a high degree, thus rendering testing under absurd conditions nothing more than an interesting conversation point, or a bragging right for some.


Thanks, but I will probably still do it just for kicks I think it would be an interesting conversation point. I think after I buy my next carry gun that I will go ahead with this. I'm not taking my EDC out of rotation to humor the masses.

Getting back to you and your gun selection. Given that you want to stay DA/SA, I think you really need to go Sig with either a 220 or 226 Elite or the 220 or 226 Combat or HKP30L. With a heavier push toward the Sigs, especially if you want to maintain some familiarity with your service pistol(s). However with the right ammunition, the HKP30L is capable of 1" groups at 25 yards, and if that's not a combat pistol, I don't know what is.

Regarding a service life of 20,000 rounds before replacing any major parts...I don't think that will be an issue with any quality firearm that has been suggested in this thread however there are some things that will need to be replaced no matter what such as your springs. Barrel life is not something that can be easily estimated, there are too many variables that will effect the life of the barrel, what kind of ammunition, cleaning practices etc. In the link above regarding the HKP30, the guy has over 77,000 rounds though the gun in the same barrel, slide and frame over a 34 week period. Modern guns last a long, long time.


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## VasSigmeister (Jan 3, 2010)

I learned so much from this thread...


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm not discounting the 1911's just yet based purely on the single action, I'm just exploring the waters at the moment. 

and as pertaining to that I've noticed that almost every 1911 is a single stack magazine, with relatively little magazine capacity. I understand the size of the .45 acp is a huge factor, but surely someone makes a magazine well and magazine that is staggered? I dont feel one would need to make the handle too much larger to make this a reality, and it should make for a round count of 10 or 11 at least. I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy..

I've held the 226 in my hands, played with it quite alot, and broke it down to it's bare frame, every screw, pin, detent, and spring detached from all other components. I like the feel of it in my hands, it was very agreeable to my grip, I liked the trigger pull, it was a good 4 pounds or so lighter than what I get out of my baretta's, and a couple pounds less on the single action as well. The decocking lever is nice, and with in reach of my thumb without manipulating my hand around, a plus for sure. I feel like I could really get used to and love this gun. it's only draw back being that I havent fired it yet. some of the guys at my armorer school didn't like them, but then they didn't seem to like anything. 

I'm trying to discern a difference between the 220, the 226 and 229 

the 226 combat only comes in 9mm, and I'm thinking I'm going to prefer a .40 or .45 ultimately, so as for as the 226 goes I'm leaning towards the elite which comes in .40 s&w with a 10 round mag cap, not to mention the beaver tail and rose wood handgrips are just dead sexy. 

the 229 has a shorter barrel, same capacity, minus the beavertail and dead sexy grips, but also for a lower price. it would be worthy of consideration if size where a big deal, which it is not. 

the 220 elite seems to have my favor at this point as it's chambered in .45 acp and has the same benefits of the 226 elite. 

all shall be taken into consideration, and hopefully some test firing will be done before I make the final call, but this is to occur sometime late 2010 as their are no gun shops on base in the desert...


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Gunners_Mate said:


> I'm not discounting the 1911's just yet based purely on the single action, I'm just exploring the waters at the moment.
> 
> and as pertaining to that I've noticed that almost every 1911 is a single stack magazine, with relatively little magazine capacity. I understand the size of the .45 acp is a huge factor, but surely someone makes a magazine well and magazine that is staggered? I dont feel one would need to make the handle too much larger to make this a reality, and it should make for a round count of 10 or 11 at least. I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy..


Several makers have a double stack 1911 which holds up to 14rounds, but they are on the large side, I've had a couple and favor the single stack, some favor the double stack it's all a matter of opinion.



> I've held the 226 in my hands, played with it quite alot, and broke it down to it's bare frame, every screw, pin, detent, and spring detached from all other components. I like the feel of it in my hands, it was very agreeable to my grip, I liked the trigger pull, it was a good 4 pounds or so lighter than what I get out of my baretta's, and a couple pounds less on the single action as well. The decocking lever is nice, and with in reach of my thumb without manipulating my hand around, a plus for sure. I feel like I could really get used to and love this gun. it's only draw back being that I havent fired it yet. some of the guys at my armorer school didn't like them, but then they didn't seem to like anything.
> 
> I'm trying to discern a difference between the 220, the 226 and 229
> 
> the 226 combat only comes in 9mm, and I'm thinking I'm going to prefer a .40 or .45 ultimately, so as for as the 226 goes I'm leaning towards the elite which comes in .40 s&w with a 10 round mag cap, not to mention the beaver tail and rose wood handgrips are just dead sexy.


Where you stationed/reside while not OCONUS? Unless you live in a state where high cap mags are not permitted, the capacity of the 226 and 229 is higher than 10 rounds. If you live in a nanny state the double/single stack capacity is really a non-issue.



> the 229 has a shorter barrel, same capacity, minus the beavertail and dead sexy grips, but also for a lower price. it would be worthy of consideration if size where a big deal, which it is not.
> 
> the 220 elite seems to have my favor at this point as it's chambered in .45 acp and has the same benefits of the 226 elite.
> 
> all shall be taken into consideration, and hopefully some test firing will be done before I make the final call, but this is to occur sometime late 2010 as their are no gun shops on base in the desert...


The 220 is a damn fine gun, but if you have an issue with only having 8 rounds, the 226 would be my pick.


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't really have an issue with the 8 rounds, at least, not when I separate myself from where I am now, and the situations that may occur over here, and the purpose of THIS weapon, and the situations that may occur _there_

(consider landslide I've got 90 rounds of green tip .223 for my m4 and on the water I've got 400 rounds for each of my three crew served weapons)

there being portsmouth, Va.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Gunners_Mate said:


> I don't really have an issue with the 8 rounds, at least, not when I separate myself from where I am now, and the situations that may occur over here, and the purpose of THIS weapon, and the situations that may occur _there_
> 
> (consider landslide I've got 90 rounds of green tip .223 for my m4 and on the water I've got 400 rounds for each of my three crew served weapons)
> 
> there being portsmouth, Va.


OK, there are no magazine capacity limits in VA, so you can have the higher cap mags.

226: 15-9mm - 12-.40
229: 13-9mm - 12-.40


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

VAMarine said:


> OK, there are no magazine capacity limits in VA, so you can have the higher cap mags.
> 
> 226: 15-9mm - 12-.40
> 229: 13-9mm - 12-.40


good to know. virginia has many downs in my experience, but this appears to be an up.

any smith and wessons worth mentioning that I may be interested in?

also, several companies have law enforcement or military models, being military can I get my hands on one for personal use, or is this a government pay only type deal?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Gunners_Mate said:


> good to know. virginia has many downs in my experience, but this appears to be an up.
> 
> any smith and wessons worth mentioning that I may be interested in?
> 
> also, several companies have law enforcement or military models, being military can I get my hands on one for personal use, or is this a government pay only type deal?


Regarding S&W, you might like the M&P Pro Series...

As for "LE/Military Models, of pistols they are nothing special that you can't get in the civilian world as long we're not talking class 3.

What "LE / Military" models are you talking about? Pretty much every pistol in duty use in the US is nothing special as long as we're not talking class 3 items.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

VAMarine said:


> OK, there are no magazine capacity limits in VA, so you can have the higher cap mags.
> 
> 226: 15-9mm - 12-.40
> 229: 13-9mm - 12-.40


These are stock capacities...

aftermarket mags(Mec gar) can be purchased that hold more without extending the basepad.


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

VAMarine said:


> Regarding S&W, you might like the M&P Pro Series...
> 
> As for "LE/Military Models, of pistols they are nothing special that you can't get in the civilian world as long we're not talking class 3.
> 
> What "LE / Military" models are you talking about? Pretty much every pistol in duty use in the US is nothing special as long as we're not talking class 3 items.


sorry for delayed response, took a little hiatus to do more studying and such, been trying to figure out which long arm I want as well.

as for your question I was referring to the several manufacturers that have weapons labeled as le/military. I've found some are actually available to everyone and some are not.

i looked at the sw's and I don't seem to like anything about them. much like glocks, I'm just not "turned on" by the composite receiver, and internal hammer. I'm sure they operate well, but I just can't get over those two issues with the both of them. maybe I'm old fashioned, when it comes down to it I will almost always take wood grips, external hammer, and all metal over anything else, every time.

I've looked at a great deal of handguns in the last month and I've become interested in stoeger cougar's slightly but mostly only as an alternate 9mm secondary stay at home weapon.

mostly I'm still torn between a 1911 from a manufacturer I still haven't figured out yet, or the p220 elite or elite carry. considering I intend to carry the weapon as much as possible I've brought the carry into consideration.

being interested in the 1911 poses an interesting problem. there's SOO many, and clearly I'm pretty picky. ive become less picky with the ammo capacity, SAO, and grip safety, but really thats only allowed me greater interest in the 1911 and hasn't narrowed anything down.

having looked at some wilsons I've come to experience the OMGWTF, too much factor. 2.5k for a handgun? i'm sure it's worth it, but I'd rather invest that kind of money in the machinery to build my own

so I've narrowed the price range down to 700 to 1400. unless something truly catches my eye above or below that price range I'll be sticking to it.

and having found les baer's prices I've found those are also out of range.

so it seems when it comes to 1911's I want be looking at high end 1911's so much as what would seem to be mid range. so the new question is, who do you prefer for your mid range 1911's manufactuers? who, arguably, produces the best product at that price? I've looked at a few para's, some kimbers, sig's, and a few others. what do you guys think?

also, no plastic, period. I've seen a few polymer triggers and it's not that I can't appreciate the material, it's simply that I can't blue, parkerize, add or (in my right mind) take away material to a polymer.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Gunners_Mate said:


> ...$700 to $1400
> 
> who, arguably, produces the best product at that price? I've looked at a few para's, some kimbers, sig's, and a few others. what do you guys think?


Any thing from Dan Wesson, Maybe a Colt Special Combat, Springfield TRP or Loaded Model or maybe some select models from STI like the Duty One, Lawman, or Ranger II.


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## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

found dan wesson with cz, I like some of his stuff and the prices, in particular the guardian, I've got one major problem though. I can live with it being 9mil, but the fact that it's 9mil and only has a mag cap of 9 rounds is discouraging. looking into it I found the CCO and the V-bob both of which I really like, though the extra conceal-ability of the CCO and 500 dollar difference is tempting. I like the Springfield gi, loaded and mil-spec, trying to find out what consumers think on those, looked at sti for the first time today, and I like their lawman, but I've also got a soft spot for the ranger II. time to find out what the people think


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## Rogelk (Jan 23, 2010)

Get a SIG and don't look back. A P229 SCT is the one I like.


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## Frank45 (Feb 21, 2010)

Whew what a great thread, it kept my interest. :smt023:smt023:smt1099


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

i have real all the threads
below is my input
my age - 60 and i still own a 1911

everything will produce a stoppage at some point, nothing is perfect, but I'd like something I can beleive to be near enough to it. as for service life I'd like to put at least 20k rounds through it before having to replace a barrel, purchace a new receiver, or slide, depending on which of those major parts will wear out first

a glock gunsmith told me the barrel is good for 1M rounds before replacement

I've read in quite a few articles of weapons achieving sub 1.5 ammo with certain ammunition. other ammo's didn't produce quite the same accuracy in the same weapon, there was usually about an inch of deviation, so I suppose I could in the interests of not being terribly difficult and unrealistic lower it to an average or claimed grouping of 2.5 or less at 25.

Entry 1911's are 3 inch at 25yds - $1,200 to $1,800 1911's are 2" and $2,000 guns like STI are 1" at 25yds
But you don't like 1911's - I really don't understand that - there are several grip options

Have you looked at the FNP-45 - double stack - that has been tested a lot and is very well made
Or the Springfield TRP
Or the Glock 21 SF - now here is a real reliable pistol - and double stack
Or the Sig in 45acp
Or the PARA 1911 - they have a light double action and can be double stack

Oh - just read no plastic
Then add to the list the PARA GI EXPERT - entry level cost and a good company and made in America

See
http://www.m1911.org/m1911dt.htm

see
http://www.m1911.org/images/full_anim.gif

see how to assemble a 1911:


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## fishnpbr (Mar 23, 2008)

No mention of HK. I have a HK p2000 that that has been an awesome handgun in every regard. Here is a thread from the HKPRO Forum on the p2000's reliability and durability. Just food for thought.

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?51749-Project-Break-my-P2000&highlight=p2000+test


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