# The .357 is still the best one-shot performer for self-defense in a handgun.



## 870ShellShucker

In 2011, the ammunition companies still can't duplicate the performance of a 125 Grain .357 Magnum JHP in any .40 S&W, or .45 ACP offering. The .357 is still the best one-shot performer for self-defense in a handgun. (Although the .45 ACP is a Bad Boy in its own right)

Does anyone here disagree?


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## 45Sidekick

agreed except the 357 sig is supposed to "duplicate" the ballistics to the magnum, yet is about 200fps slower on average to the famous magnum.


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## 45Sidekick

i love ye old .357mag i have played with a few and own one which i love, i have considered getting a snubbie as well, such as a s&w for play, but i will definately own more in this caliber its so well rounded. stopping power, accuracy, conveinence, ease of finding ammo, plinker, etc... they are just too good to pass up


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## 870ShellShucker

> agreed except the 357 sig is supposed to "duplicate" the ballistics to the magnum, yet is about 200fps slower on average to the famous magnum.


Well, it comes close then, but still no cigar. Although, I see factory .357 offerings from 1200fps to 1500fps, so there is a range of velocities out there. However, most companies load their 125 Grain JHP pretty hot and label it as a self-defense round. That is still considered the gold standard. The 158 Grain JHP is pretty common as well, and at 25 or 50 yards, it catches and starts to exceed the velocity of the 125 Grain load.


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## 45Sidekick

i have been thinking of getting a glock 32 in 357sig due to ballistics as its as close to a 357mag as they come in a semi-auto thats willing to send over 13 rounds downrange as fast as you can pull the trigger, so its very tempting im sure the glock will be my next pistol for carry, but in reference to your original post nothing other than a 44mag or bigger coould compare to the 357mag in stopping power, yet the 357 is the most versitile as you can comfortably carry an array of 357 caliber framed pistols where the 44 lacks by the undeniable size of the "wheel" that holds these mini-cannon rounds but for a revolver its either 357 or something thats never going to live up to it


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## usmcj

The .357 magnum loaded properly may well be the "best" defense round, if all the variables fall into place. No particular caliber is worth a damn unless the shooter can put a magazine, or cylinder full on target. Even then, a caliber comparison in gel is simply an approximation of tissue density, presence of bone, point of impact, trajectory, and while it's a reasonable comparison, the ability to control one's chosen caliber, and put rounds on target is paramount. Who knows of anyone who carries only one .357 round in a cylinder, because it's a "one shot stopper" ? This debate will surface somewhere on a weekly basis, as will the fact that rounds on target are required BEFORE caliber becomes relevant.


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## 870ShellShucker

> This debate will surface somewhere on a weekly basis


Yes, but the point is, after all of these decades, nobody has brought to market an equivalent semi auto caliber or load that will do what the 125 Grain .357 did with one well-placed shot. The Magnums have reigned supreme for a mighty long time now.


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## usmcj

870ShellShucker said:


> Yes, but the point is, after all of these decades, nobody has brought to market an equivalent semi auto caliber or load that will do what the 125 Grain .357 did with one well-placed shot. The Magnums have reigned supreme for a mighty long time now.


Please don't mis-understand.... I really like the .357. Ok, here we go.... _ Let it be known that the .357 Magnum is undeniably the all around, greatest, no comparison, one-shot-stopper, that has ever been fired._

Speaking of markets... what does your in-depth, without question, market research reveal as the most often carried caliber in the United States? I don't know what it is, but I'll bet lunch that it's not a .357 Magnum.

As I said, if the .357 Magnum is the supreme, grand poobah, nothing better, one-shot-stop cartridge, why is there more than one chamber in a .357 revolver? I have four .357 revolvers, that I've owned for many, many years, and I've carried for over 40 years... but I've never been inclined to carry one of them. There are better concealed carry calibers out there. IN MY OPINION.

Be glad we have the option to carry what we want to... in most states.


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## 870ShellShucker

> Please don't mis-understand.... I really like the .357


I see we have something in common.

Over the past 23 years, at one time or another I've owned handguns in .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, .38 Special & +P, 9x19mm, .380 Auto, .32 Long, .25 Auto, and .22 LR calibers.

I've fired commercial hollow point loads from all of these. I only felt like I really had enough gun when shooting the .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The 9mm option for me was only good if it was a high capacity pistol. To feel comfortable, I wanted twice the ammo in a 9mm, as in a .357 Magnum. Otherwise, why use 9mm? I still feel pretty good about a .38 Special and Hollow Points as a close quarters in-home emergency rig, but I'd much rather have the .357 Magnum.

I felt like the .44 Magnums were impractical for me, but the ones I had all had 7.5" barrels, six-shot cylinders, and weighed a ton. Perhaps a .44 with a 3"-4" barrel, five shot cylinder, and loaded with .44 specials would totally change my mind. I regret not having experience with a smaller, lighter .44 Special rig.


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## usmcj

Well, when a decent 1911 platform is designed to accept a .357 magnum, I'll buy one. I've trained with, carried in combat with, and taught with a 1911 for too many years to change now. With regard to firearms, personal preference is everything. The most efficient defensive caliber in the world is useless, if you don't carry it. Currently, I'd have to guess that the most popular carry guns are 1911's and Glocks, but that doesn't mean that everyone, or anyone, has to like either one. :smt1099


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## 870ShellShucker

I also loved the 1911, FWIW. Best semi-auto I ever shot. I was very impressed.


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## Steve M1911A1

870ShellShucker said:


> In 2011, the ammunition companies still can't duplicate the performance of a 125 Grain .357 Magnum JHP in any .40 S&W, or .45 ACP offering. The .357 is still the best one-shot performer for self-defense in a handgun. (Although the .45 ACP is a Bad Boy in its own right)
> 
> Does anyone here disagree?


Yeah. Me.

1. Some people find the .357 Magnum a difficult round to control, particularly when using a snubbie. Necessary second and third shots are difficult to place quickly, accurately, and effectively.
2. As *usmcj* pointed out, ballistics are meaningless unless the shooter can accurately and effectively place each and every shot. All the kinetic energy in the world becomes a futile expenditure, if the shot misses its mark.

And if you truly believe that a 4" or 5", .44 Magnum is the right carry gun for you, then by all means have at it. They're available from S&W.
Let us know how it works out for you, once you've gained a little real-world experience. (That is, after you've actually shot it a few times.)

Oh, yeah: And please try to remember that _Dirty Harry_ was a movie, and that the gun was loaded with blanks.


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## Russ

If the 357 is tops why do most police department and military not use the 357? I have read you must make the first shot count in a small concealed 357 because the recoil will knock you off Target for a followup shot. It really doesn't mean much if you can't hit the Target because the gun kicks so much due to the shooter flinching. My dad used a 22 to drop 1500 lb beef cattle. Shot placement is everything.


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## 870ShellShucker

> Let us know how it works out for you, once you've gained a little real-world experience. (That is, after you've actually shot it a few times.)


Why, pray tell, do you assume that I haven't shot any of the 5 or more .357's I've owned over the years?



> It really doesn't mean much if you can't hit the Target because the gun kicks so much due to the shooter flinching.


The average distance is 7 Yards. That's a mighty big target at 7 Yards. We're not talking about shooting coke bottles.



> If the 357 is tops why do most police department and military not use the 357?


Because a .357 doesn't offer 15 shots without a reload.


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## Steve M1911A1

870ShellShucker said:


> Why, pray tell, do you assume that I haven't shot any of the 5 or more .357's I've owned over the years?...


I don't.
You were writing about desiring a medium-length-barrel .44 Magnum.
That's the gun to which I was referring, and about your experience with which I was making assumptions.
Of course, if you're going to load a .44 Magnum pistol with .44 Special ammunition, you might as well stick to your .357 Magnums anyway.


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## 870ShellShucker

> I don't. You were writing about desiring a medium-length-barrel .44 Magnum.
> That's the gun to which I was referring, and about your experience with which I was making assumptions.
> Of course, if you're going to load a .44 Magnum pistol with .44 Special ammunition, you might as well stick to your .357 Magnums anyway.


OK, sorry I misunderstood what you were getting at. I remember seeing a 5 shot, short barreled .44 Special in a magazine several years back. It sure looked interesting. Like a Governor/Judge without the extended cylinder.


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## DanP_from_AZ

Your original post said


870ShellShucker said:


> In 2011, the ammunition companies still can't duplicate the performance of a 125 Grain .357 Magnum JHP in any .40 S&W, or .45 ACP offering. The .357 is still the best one-shot performer for self-defense in a handgun. (Although the .45 ACP is a Bad Boy in its own right)
> 
> Does anyone here disagree?


OK, let's move the goal-post just a bit to be fair. You say _*"can't duplicate . . . in any .40 S&W offering".*_ You are not comparing apples and oranges.

After the FBI fiasco in Miami, the FBI went to the 10mm Auto. Designed to "match" the .357 Mag performance. And it does.
And then the 10mm was "too much". Hence the "10mm Short", the .40 S&W was created with reduced "power" to allow agents to "shoot better".

125 grain bullets in 10mm are "fairly rare". Most are in the 150 to 200 grain range. But Cor-Bon offers "defensive" loads close in weight for both calibers.

Cor-Bon *.357 Magnum *125 grain Barnes XPB hollowpoint. $31.99/20.
*1300 fps, 469 ft-lbs energy*. At the muzzle.

Cor-Bon *10mm Auto *135 grain jacketed hollow point. $27.19/20.
*1400 fps, 588 ft-lb energy*. At the muzzle.

And you say _*"The .357 is still the best one-shot performer for self-defense in a handgun."*_
I'm not a Glock guy, but I'm fairly certain Glock has at least one handgun model in 10mm.
The Glock contains quite a few more rounds than a 5/6 shot .357 Magnum revolver. Unless you have a semi-auto .357 Magnum.
But, who cares about the number of rounds available when you have _*"the best one-shot performer for self-defense".*_

*Care to revisit your statements ?*

It is never good to put your opinions in the form of "absolutes".
All it takes is one contrary example to refute your "argument".

P.S.
Doubletap has this pretty *hot 10mm Auto *self-defense load in the "fairly rare" 125 grain category. 
125 grain Barnes TAC-XP hollowpoint.
*1600 fps, 710 ft-lb energy*. At the muzzle.

So a single 10mm Auto shot is able to leap tall buildings at a single bound, after driving all the way through a pack of Zombies.

All of the above is *just my opinion*, of course.
And this comparison totally begs off the question of "bullet effectiveness" and all the "one-stop BS".

Your Mileage May Vary. :mrgreen:


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## Russ

I am not going to dispute the ballistic of the 357. However shot placement is the most important factor and that means range time. 357 is a boat load more to practice with than 9 mm. Which I ask is going to be more effective the shooter that has the range time and can place the 9mm or the person with the 357 who can't hit the side of the barn because he couldn't afford to practice because the ammo is too costly.


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## 870ShellShucker

> Cor-Bon .357 Magnum 125 grain Barnes XPB hollowpoint. $31.99/20.
> 1300 fps, 469 ft-lbs energy. At the muzzle.


There are several 125 Grain HP rounds for the .357 which are higher in both velocity and foot-pounds of energy than the one you just cited. From the "old standard" Federal JHP at 1440fps and 575 ft-lbs, to the Hornady XTP at 1500fps and 624 ft-lbs of energy.



> Cor-Bon 10mm Auto 135 grain jacketed hollow point. $27.19/20.
> 1400 fps, 588 ft-lb energy. At the muzzle.





> Doubletap has this pretty hot 10mm Auto self-defense load in the "fairly rare" 125 grain category.
> 125 grain Barnes TAC-XP hollowpoint, 1600 fps, 710 ft-lb energy. At the muzzle.


The Hornady XTP .357 Magnum at 624 ft-lbs toes the line pretty well with the 10mm.

Numerous current handguns are offered in .357, as well as there being a huge supply of used handguns in .357. The 125 Grain ammo is plentiful, and offered by every company under the sun. There are numerous HP designs available to choose from. The .357 didn't fall out of favor with law enforcement agencies because it didn't do its job well. They simply wanted higher capacity, without having to deal with a giant revolver cylinder.

You know, for this to be the General Revolver Area, there sure are a lot of semi-auto fans hanging out here.


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## Steve M1911A1

870ShellShucker said:


> ...You know, for this to be the General Revolver Area, there sure are a lot of semi-auto fans hanging out here.


...And I like women, too! :smt083


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## 870ShellShucker

> ...And I like women, too!


Finally!!! We completely agree.


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## Steve M1911A1

870ShellShucker said:


> Finally!!! We completely agree.


:anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol: :smt083


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## 45Sidekick

ha i just bought a ruger gp100 today in 357 mag with a 4 inch barrel for a new play toy, and after cleaning it up, it is a fun one... but also deafening i cant hear sh^^ now after about 80 rounds with no hearing protection like the dumby i am lol but its a good fun pistol


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## Steve M1911A1

*Warning*: Although I have always liked music, I can no longer hear very much of it. I can still remember the exact moment when I lost all of my high-frequency hearing. All it took was one shot. Just one.

Your hearing will accept the insult of repeated loud, explosive noises, and it will recover nicely in a very little while, until you finally subject your ears to the one, final noise. That moment is unpredictable, and its occurrence is different for each individual, but it also is inevitable.

Young though you may be, you are not indestructible. You are not Superman.
Wear hearing protection, each and every time you shoot. (Yes, for .22 rimfires too.)

And while you're at it, wear eye protection too.


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## 45Sidekick

its kinda peaceful once the bells quit ringing huh? see? i cant even hear on here lol


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## 870ShellShucker

When I was younger, we hardly ever had any ear plugs on when we shot. Most of us didn't even own a pair. Now, I always wear them when I am shooting targets. I don't wear them when I'm hunting, though. I fired 11 shots with a 12 Gauge while on a hunt last weekend, and it didn't ring my ears one bit. But, I was in big timber, far off the road. It seems like sound waves bounce off of houses and buildings and increase the perceived volume when I practice. (I don't live in town.)


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## 45Sidekick

shotguns dont usually bother me unless my girlfriend happens to have the barrel parallel to my ear lol that was concusive lol but anything bigger than a 9mm in a pistol about rocks my world lol


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## Steve M1911A1

870ShellShucker said:


> ...It seems like sound waves bounce off of houses and buildings and increase the perceived volume when I practice. (I don't live in town.)


My loss happened in open scrub forest, in a clearing that is 100 yards by 50 yards.

Don't kid yourself.

(There are devices you can wear within your ears that allow you to hear normal sounds, but which shut down when strong sound waves are detected.)


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## DanP_from_AZ

870ShellShucker said:


> There are several 125 Grain HP rounds for the .357 which are higher in both velocity and foot-pounds of energy than the one you just cited. From the "old standard" Federal JHP at 1440fps and 575 ft-lbs, to the Hornady XTP at 1500fps and 624 ft-lbs of energy.
> 
> The Hornady XTP .357 Magnum at 624 ft-lbs toes the line pretty well with the 10mm.
> 
> Numerous current handguns are offered in .357, as well as there being a huge supply of used handguns in .357. The 125 Grain ammo is plentiful, and offered by every company under the sun. There are numerous HP designs available to choose from. The .357 didn't fall out of favor with law enforcement agencies because it didn't do its job well. They simply wanted higher capacity, without having to deal with a giant revolver cylinder.
> 
> You know, for this to be the General Revolver Area, there sure are a lot of semi-auto fans hanging out here.


As far as the revolver/semi-auto deal, I follow the Federal EEO (Equal Employment Opportunity) rules and have plenty of each type in the name of diversity. :mrgreen:

And back to the "load number comparison, where you keep moving the goalposts.
After your citing your "Hornady XTP .357 Magnum at 624 ft-lbs. toes the line pretty well with the 10mm" I actually see "my" 10mm hot load was "better" by quite a bit.
_Doubletap has this pretty hot 10mm Auto self-defense load in the "fairly rare" 125 grain category. 
125 grain Barnes TAC-XP hollowpoint.
1600 fps, 710 ft-lb energy. At the muzzle._

A tiny bit of mathematics shows "my 710" versus "your 624" has my 10mm load with 13.7821 % more energy than your "toes the line pretty well" weak sister .357 Mag load. So there. Take That.
And while we are casting stones, energy is properly expressed in lb.-ft. Not ft.-lbs. Torque is in ft.-lbs. I just normally go along with "accepted" (but incorrect) practice.

For our next pissing contest (or is it "who has the biggest d_ck?) I suggest shifting to "who's got the biggest gun and the hottest load actually strapped to their hip?"

I've skipped right over the .44 Mag. My carry revolver is a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 2 1/2" snubby in .454 Casull.
Carry Load: Win Supreme Elite Dual Bond 260 grain JHP.
1800 fps, 1870 ft-lb.
Practice Load: Magtech 260 grain SJSP (Semi Jacketed Soft Point).
1800 fps, 1870 ft-lb. (yes, there is a reason it matches my carry load).

Your turn.
Can you raise me a S&W .500 ? (max. energy).
Or a S&W .460 ? (max. velocity).
Both are certainly more "manly" than my .454 Casull.

And I'd hazard a guess that any of the above three "placed to the center of mass" sternum might be "one-shot stoppers".
And possibly the next two or three folks stacked behind "the perp".

OK, enough touch-typing fun. 
Any intelligent person knows the "best one-shot stop" deal is impossible to determine scientifically.
Not enough good data. Never will be. Who "bets their life" and stops after one shot "to collect valid data".

Now, I've got a few chores to do. Really, this was just all in fun while waiting for football to start. Peace. :smt1099


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## DanP_from_AZ

Steve M1911A1 said:


> . . . (There are devices you can wear within your ears that allow you to hear normal sounds, but which shut down when strong sound waves are detected.)


Sorry for your loss.
I am VERY lucky. For years I worked around unmuffled race cars. First at drag strips next to funny cars and top fuelers. As in standing between them.
Then a lot more years around unmuffled road-race cars. There really is no "scientific reason" to account for my hearing at age 69 being "acceptable".

I wear electronic earmuffs when shooting. I like the "normal sounds are amplified, but loud is chopped" type. Actually, not "chopped out", but attenuated.
I like to wear them when hiking and "stalking" animals for photos also. Unless a wind is blowing. Then they'll drive you crazy. Time for the off switch. :mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1

DanP_from_AZ said:


> ...Unless a wind is blowing. Then they'll drive you crazy. Time for the off switch. :mrgreen:


...Just like my high-end hearing aids!


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## 870ShellShucker

> I actually see "my" 10mm hot load was "better" by quite a bit.


My point was that you initially compared an average velocity 125 grain .357 hollow point load, to a red hot 10mm 125 grain load, showing a great disparity between the two. I was simply pointing out that the .357 could close the gap with the 10mm round you referred to, somewhat, if we compared the hottest factory loads of each. I also knew very well that a .41 magnum, .44 magnum, .460, .500, etc. would have more knock-down power than a .357; as you can see I never claimed that the .357 was the most powerful handgun in the world.

Decades ago, a study by the FBI said that the 125 grain .357 JHP was the best, based upon real-world data at the time, and the factory offerings for the .357 have continued to get better since then.


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## denner

The so called "one shot stop" theory is junk science. The theory or testing relies on a plethora of unprovable variables. Likewise this testing is outdated. The mental state, shot placement, what loading was used, what organs, and/or if the central nervous system was hit, the physical makeup of the individual, what type of clothing, etc.......must all be created equal to make this theory anywhere near legitimate. Unfortunately, if taken from real life shootings there would be no way to know if the same individual who succumbed to a .357 would not have succumbed to a 40., .45 or 9mm under the same exact set of circumstances provided they all used the same type of hollowpoint.


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## 45Sidekick

denner has a very good point as he is correct on how everything would have to be the same without these variables to have an accurate testing. much props on things people usually think of to create a better understanding on how a round will work under a stressful situation, but from another standpoint where i believe 870 is coming from, there should be much recognition to this round, it is extremely versitile and comes in a wide range of frames, designs, company logos, etc... i personally love a .357 for home defense as for the ballistics and stopping power, as it is undeniably a very powerful round. unless you go bigger such as a 44mag, 500, 10mm in the automatic, etc... the .357 still has a managable recoil, dont get me wrong it will definately let you know its there after sqeezing the trigger. but i believe it is and always will be a very popular round and has incredible ballistics to back it up as a 30 caliber handgun will never live up to. and i said 30 caliber HANDGUN so there is no confusion. i believe in it whole heartedly to protect me at my home but it is not what i carry as it is too bulky and i believe in having more than enought rounds at the ready to back me up(more than 6) but i believe this is what he was inplying just my 2 cents and my opinion on the matter
45Sidekick


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## 45Sidekick

as in one shot stop, noones to know the best unless its a 12 guage at 5ft from target at center mast with 00 buckshot in the chamber different people, different scenerios, etc all play a factor so its something we'll never know for sure


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## 870ShellShucker

But my, hasn't it been a robust discussion? The truth is, there are several great options available. The .40 and .45 are both awesome, the 9mm and .38 are pretty good in their own right, and the .357 hangs in there with pretty much anything. I admittedly have no experience with the 10mm, but do know personally that the .44 is a hand-canon. So much recoil, and so much time to get back on target, but what a heck of a first shot.

The .357 has all the recoil I'd want to have to deal with in a defensive situation. Unless a perp was on PCP, he'd never stand a chance.


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## 45Sidekick

this is true


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## DanP_from_AZ

870ShellShucker said:


> But my, hasn't it been a robust discussion? . . .


That is sure a refreshing attitude.
I'm an long-winded and opinonated old "you know what". And a lot of people don't take kindly to "that".

I just deleted another too long reply on valid statistical studies and verifiable computer modeling that have been done.
And can't be done for "bullet stops". Denner has a very good take on "problems". It is even more complex than that.

I've never fired a .44 Mag, but have spent a fair amount of time with .454 Casull hot hollow-point loads in my Alaskan.
It's hell on water-filled milk jugs. A REAL BIG step up over full-power .45 Long Colt hollowpoints.

But it's not on my nightstand. That is the job of my Beretta 92FS. And it's job is to give my time to reach the Mossberg 500 eight-shot.
Use the proper tool for the proper job, and you won't skin your knuckles. Or worse. :mrgreen:


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## 45Sidekick

handguns are just a way to keep a perp occupied until you can get your hands on a real gun lol, i have a mossberg 835 sawed off pump with 6 shells as my door-stop for such an occasion lol


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## 870ShellShucker

Every country boy should have a 12 Gauge Pump, and a .357 Revolver. They just "feel" right. I appreciate other guns too, but these two should be on everyone's short list. They ought to be experienced. Thank God for the 2nd Ammendment.

On a side note, I'm having more fun with my Heritage Rough Rider 6.5" SA 22LR than I ought to be able to for the price. It has Fixed sights, but I filed down the front blade to be dead on elevation wise at 10' and 20'. At 10' it hits about 3/4" to the Left, and at 20' it hits about 1.5" to the Left. At 30', it leaves the bullseye, about 2" High and 3" to the Left. Beyond 30', it starts getting crazy. At 75', it hits about a Foot from where I aim. I still intend to try some of the CCI Shotshells that have 165 #12 Lead Pellets in them. I bought a couple of boxes of them, but I haven't put any on paper yet.


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## usmcj

45Sidekick said:


> handguns are just a way to keep a perp occupied until you can get your hands on a real gun lol, i have a mossberg 835 sawed off pump with 6 shells as my door-stop for such an occasion lol


I have a Rem 870 handy as well... just make sure your "sawed off" shotgun still measures over 18 " closed bolt (less firing pin) / 26" overall length.... if you ever have to use it, and it's short of either measurement, you're not gonna be a happy camper.


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## zhurdan

Love the "one shot stop" stuff. I hope people don't honestly believe this garbage. Furthermore, I hope people don't TRAIN this way. Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. If it takes one .357mag, fine, but if all I had was a .357mag, and there were need to shoot something with it, I tend to believe that it'd get more than one just for good measure.


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## usmcj

zhurdan said:


> Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.


Absolutely correct......



zhurdan said:


> but if all I had was a .357mag, and there were need to shoot something with it, I tend to believe that it'd get more than one just for good measure.


If the threat ceases to be a threat, and you add one more _just for good measure_, the local prosecutor may be less than impressed.


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## Packard

45Sidekick said:


> agreed except the 357 sig is supposed to "duplicate" the ballistics to the magnum, yet is about 200fps slower on average to the famous magnum.


Also, because the size of the bullet is different they needed to beef up the hollow point area so that it would not disintegrate. So the projectile is the same weight, but not the same exact configuration.

Even when they duplicate the velocity they don't duplicate the results.

But from everything I've ever read, the 125 grain Federal JHP in .357 has the best record for stopping bad guys. Everything else is just trying to be "just as good as..."

Note that the .45 military round has always been listed as a major man-stopper. (And it is.) But it was being compared with other military rounds (all of which are full military jacketed). The size of the .45 does not translate into super results once you go to JHP in .45. Though it is certainly my first or second choice for personal protection. Not as effective as the .357 but (from my experience) vastly easier to learn to shoot really well.

And that leads to the biggest failing of the .357. In the smaller sized weapons that make good carry pieces, the .357 can require significant amounts of practice; and that practice must be on-going to keep sharp. Brief lapses in training on the .45 would have less impact than similar lapses in .357 (based on my experience only).


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## zhurdan

usmcj said:


> If the threat ceases to be a threat, and you add one more _just for good measure_, the local prosecutor may be less than impressed.


You know what I mean. I run splits in the .18-.22 range on the timer. If two more rounds hit the bad guy in .5 seconds, they'll have a hard time pinning down exactly _when_ the BG stopped becoming a threat.


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## 45Sidekick

Nice nice I have an old 870 myself and I cut the mossberg over legal lenght so its cool but it has a spread like crazy


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## Packard

usmcj said:


> Absolutely correct......
> 
> If the threat ceases to be a threat, and you add one more _just for good measure_, the local prosecutor may be less than impressed.


Just tell them that you always trained for three-shot sequences; tap-tap-tap; tap-tap-tap.

The minimum number of rounds I would put in a bad guy is three shots (unless I missed one shot, or two, or all three).

Two guys it is: tap, tap; tap, tap. And then head shots: tap; tap. (If required)


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## usmcj

Packard said:


> Just tell them that you always trained for three-shot sequences; tap-tap-tap; tap-tap-tap.
> 
> The minimum number of rounds I would put in a bad guy is three shots (unless I missed one shot, or two, or all three).
> 
> Two guys it is: tap, tap; tap, tap. And then head shots: tap; tap. (If required)


I truly hope you don't have to relate that to a real prosecutor, but best of luck to you if it comes to that.


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## Packard

usmcj said:


> I truly hope you don't have to relate that to a real prosecutor, but best of luck to you if it comes to that.


I'm not going to tell them anything. I'm going to call my sister-in-law (who defends all the gang-bangers with big dough) and tell her to take care of it.

But I do train with a tap-tap; tap-tap; and then back again with two head shots; or one bad guy: tap-tap (torso), tap (head). So I would guess that is what I'd do in a real confrontation. _You are supposed to shoot the way you practice; and practice the way you intend to shoot._

"Gee, Mr. Prosecutor, I was trying to shoot the gun out of his hand. Must've been a flier that caught him between the eyes."


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## specops

The only proven one shot stop is to hit the brain stem, caliber doesn't matter as long as you have the penetration. A brain shot will not do it (ask Gabby Giffords) by it's self and a center mass hit still requires either a bleed out or suffocation (oxygen starvation to the brain) which can take 6-10 seconds. If you sever the spine above the shoulders (neck shot) it will incapacitate the body and their ability to be a threat though the brain will still live on for a few seconds. Someone mentioned the Miami shootout. Manix was killed by a .357 bullet that hit his right eye socket ranged downward through his cheek into his neck and severed the spine. He had already been shot 5 times before that. Upon exiting their car, Platt took a 9mm in the upper right arm that penetrated the chest, took out the right lung but stopped short of the heart. He got off 42 rounds of .223 and 3 rounds each from 2 different .357 Mag revolvers before a hit to the chest penetrated and bruised the spine. Since he had almost a liter and a half of blood in the body cavity from the lung hit, it has always been a question as to whether he just bled out or the bruised spine stopped the fight. He took 12 hits before expiring. Unfortunate timing and bad tactics played a major part in the carnage. Platt's coolness under fire (he was an ex Army Ranger) and superior marksmanship with a .223 carbine left good men dead. FYI both Manix and Platt were drug free at the time of the shootout. Just like in hunting, it ain't the caliber, it's where you put the bullet and what it does after it gets there. :smt1099


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## 870ShellShucker

If an attacker is down and out of the fight, that is a one shot stop. A one shot stop does not necessarily require that the attacker be terminated. We are talking about self-defense. If you are perceived to have crossed the line to start executing "judgement" upon your attacker, you may well find yourself being prosecuted. Don't put yourself in a prosecutable situation, but by all means protect yourself. 

Happy to live in a "Castle Doctrine" state.


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## spanish073187

usmcj said:


> Well, when a decent 1911 platform is designed to accept a .357 magnum, I'll buy one. :smt1099


 Found one :-D
Coonan - Welcome to Coonan!


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## Packard

Russ said:


> If the 357 is tops why do most police department and military not use the 357? I have read you must make the first shot count in a small concealed 357 because the recoil will knock you off Target for a followup shot. It really doesn't mean much if you can't hit the Target because the gun kicks so much due to the shooter flinching. My dad used a 22 to drop 1500 lb beef cattle. Shot placement is everything.


While civilians are not expected to get in gun fights (you'd get in trouble even if you are in the right), the police can expect to get in gun fights. A gun fight might easily require more than 6 rounds, so an automatic makes more sense. It carries more ammo and reloads much quicker than a revolver.


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## usmcj

spanish073187 said:


> Found one :-D
> Coonan - Welcome to Coonan!


Interesting. I'll look closer at that..... thanks


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## Packard

usmcj said:


> Interesting. I'll look closer at that..... thanks


Just a note: Coonan came out with this gun years ago and went bankrupt. They are re-introducing the gun. There was neve anything wrong with the weapon, but you should know the history of the manufacturer.


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