# 'Caliber Debate'



## rccola712 (Aug 26, 2008)

I just found this article and thought it was an interesting read. He talks about the caliber debate and how its kind of useless one. he basically says what i've read several times here. Thought some of you might enjoy it. I do wish this guy would be more definite, he says probably and might alot, but oh well.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Have No Faith.htm


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## mactex (Jan 23, 2007)

I like Steve Camp's thought on most things. If you look around the internet you'll find that he posts on a few forums from time to time. He even has his own section on the Texas CHL forums.


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## Kyle1337 (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm not able to view the link, but like I always say, what difference is it going to make if you have two in the chest and one in the head.


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## TheReaper (Nov 14, 2008)

I'll take a .40 or larger.


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## Barryd (Mar 15, 2009)

Well placed shots mean more to me than caliber.

Barry


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## The Goat (Jul 23, 2009)

I keep a 357 at the ready, but my 9mm would be ok. A good bullet and a percise shot is all I need. But I can hit some with my 50 through the door.


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## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

I recently read an article about calibers. I'll try to find it. Surprisingly, the well known writer,(so well known I forget), said a 22 magnum with its high velocity in a JHP has great stopping power and penetration. Has anyone heard this before?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Anybody who states that a .22 rimfire, even a high-velocity Magnum HP, has "great stopping power" is one taco short of the full combination plate.
It is useless to debate the merits of good defense cartridges, one against the other; but you must remember that, right in the first place, this statement applies only to _good defensive cartridges_. There are no modern rimfire cartridges in that group. Not even the rimfire magnums firing HP bullets.

You can eventually _kill_ someone with a .22 Magnum rimfire HP, but you cannot "stop" someone with it.
Further, the guy you kill with that .22 will very likely do you a whole lot of damage, before he finally does die.

Some people believe that the .380 ACP is the absolute minimum in defensive cartridges. Others say that the .38 Special is the absolute minimum. Either of those make the very bottom rung.
But .22 Magnum rimfire doesn't even come close, not even to the "effectiveness" (if you can call it that) of the .32 ACP, which is a short step below .380, and maybe a long step below .38 Special.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

rccola712 said:


> I just found this article and thought it was an interesting read. He talks about the caliber debate and how its kind of useless one. he basically says what i've read several times here. Thought some of you might enjoy it. I do wish this guy would be more definite, he says probably and might alot, but oh well.
> 
> http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Have No Faith.htm


In the article, Mr Camp states "placement is power."

I like that, and agree.

I think I have a new motto/sig line.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Done!


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## Kyle1337 (Mar 22, 2008)

Placement is power even with a .22, I don't care who ya are, if a piece of metal is traveling 800 FPS or more at you, your in bad shape. Thats why even bb guns are are able to kill ya, rare...but it happens. Recently a child in Arizona I think it was maybe Nevada, killed his parents with a .22 rifle. A guy walked into a nursing home open fired and injured and killed people with a .22, .22 is a piece of metal going very fast, it can kill you, don't take it for granted. Alot of spys especially back in the cold war days usually carried a .22 suppressed and possibly using subsonic rounds going less than 1,000FPS...seems to have done the job I'm sure.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

Kyle1337 said:


> Placement is power even with a .22, I don't care who ya are, if a piece of metal is traveling 800 FPS or more at you, your in bad shape. Thats why even bb guns are are able to kill ya, rare...but it happens. Recently a child in Arizona I think it was maybe Nevada, killed his parents with a .22 rifle. A guy walked into a nursing home open fired and injured and killed people with a .22, .22 is a piece of metal going very fast, it can kill you, don't take it for granted. Alot of spys especially back in the cold war days usually carried a .22 suppressed and possibly using subsonic rounds going less than 1,000FPS...seems to have done the job I'm sure.


The very first autopsy I ever saw was a guy who was killed by a single gunshot to the head. The prelim. x-ray showed the bullet had come to rest inside the far wall of the skull. I thought it might be a .22 since it was fairly small, and that's what it turned out to be.

Although a .22 would not be my choice for a defensive round (as it would not be for the great majority of CHL's), I certainly do not discount what a well-placed round of any cailber can do.....


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

Barryd said:


> Well placed shots mean more to me than caliber.
> 
> Barry


+1, which is why I prefer a higher capacity than a larger bullet. Higher capacity means you get more attempts to put the bullet in the right place. After all, the size of the bullet means nothing if it's not put into the right place....


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

OK, folks, let's get real.

• A .22 Magnum that enters the eye socket and proceeds into the brain would be an excellent "stop" shot.
• A .22 LR that hit dead-center on the larynx would provide a pretty quick stop.

So now, here's the question:
From a reasonable distance, for instance five yards, and _in a save-your-life panic_...
• Can you reliably center-hit a target the size of an eye socket?
• Can you reliably center-hit a target the size of a person's larynx?

Be truthful with yourself, now.
Maybe go out to the range and try it. Take a friend along, and have him/her scream at you when you are to draw and fire, and than continue to scream in your ear while you present the weapon and take the shot.
How did you do? Honestly.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> OK, folks, let's get real.
> 
> • A .22 Magnum that enters the eye socket and proceeds into the brain would be an excellent "stop" shot.
> • A .22 LR that hit dead-center on the larynx would provide a pretty quick stop.
> ...


Dude - time to get your girly panties out of a bunch. No one is talking about condoning the use of a .22 for defense purposes. IOW, just _talking _about what _can_ happen with one isn't the same as telling others that it makes a good choice for a defense caliber. Jeeezzz...:smt017


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## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

The article I referred to was written by Jeff Quinn on Gunblast.com. He states, although the 22 magnum is not my first choice for self-defense, with the right bullet , it has just as much penetration as some larger calibers.
He is saying it's not he best (obviously), but better than one would think.
I would rather have my 357mag or 38 snubby, but on the trail the 22 mag might come in handy.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

nailer said:


> The article I referred to was written by Jeff Quinn on Gunblast.com. He states, although the 22 magnum is not my first choice for self-defense, with the right bullet , it has just as much penetration as some larger calibers.
> He is saying it's not he best (obviously), but better than one would think.
> I would rather have my 357mag or 38 snubby, but on the trail the 22 mag might come in handy.


I could see why he would not pick the .22mag as his first choice, and I'll bet that it would not be his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th choice either. Obviously it's not your first choice either, nor would it be mine. In fact, unless it's the only thing available, no one in their right mind would pick it over a larger centerfire caliber.

But penetrate it will, and if that was the only thing I had around to defend myself, I would not hesitate to use it. I'm sure Mr. Quinn would do the same, and I would bet that you would too.

PhilR.

To other members of the forum -- we are merely talking (writing) about the .22 mag. We are not, and I repeat, we are _not_ saying that this is what a person should go out and purchase in a defensive hangun. That is fodder for another discussion.....


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

PhilR. said:


> Dude - time to get your girly panties out of a bunch. No one is talking about condoning the use of a .22 for defense purposes...


Oh, yeah?
Go back and read some of the previous posts a little more carefully, dude.
And don't let your little-boy pull-ups get into a bunch either.

BTW: Don't call me "dude." I probably ride a horse better than you, I don't wear pseudo-cowboy clothing, and I know which way the brim on my hat goes, to give me the best shade.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Oh, yeah?
> Go back and read some of the previous posts a little more carefully, dude.
> And don't let your little-boy pull-ups get into a bunch either.
> 
> BTW: Don't call me "dude." I probably ride a horse better than you, I don't wear pseudo-cowboy clothing, and I know which way the brim on my hat goes, to give me the best shade.


That's it? That's all you can come up with? How original.....:anim_lol:

Dude, if you were to go back through this thread, you would find that not a single person here said that we or anyone else should go out and get a .22, nor has anyone made the statement that a .22mag makes a great choice for a defensive caliber. That a lot of interesting conversation about it's use has transpired does _not _an endorsement make. Also, stating that one would use a .22mag if a forced occasion arises does not constitute an endorsement either. Unfortunately, you cannot distinguish between the two. Pretty sad for a full-grown man*.

*I'm assuming here...


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Phil, if all you can think of is to disparage other posters on this forum, you are acting like an immature fool.
Dude, you're on your own here. I'm done with you.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

*forum guidelines guys... read carefully. This particular **section **of the guidelines (below) applies to what is forming in this thread. Please stop, take a moment and breathe... and no insults.

*


> *• POST CONTENT:* Choose appropriate language. "Flaming", insults, name-calling, and foul language are not acceptable. Any material (including topic titles, links, avatars, images and signatures) that, is hostile, harassing, defaming, derisive, offensive or abusive will not be allowed, and will result in the post being edited or removed from view. We do not allow personal attacks on other members either in public forums.


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## falchunt (May 8, 2009)

Steve,

I promise, if you take a .22 mag to the head, you will stop. You will not pass go, you will not collect....well you know the rest. .22 has enough power to penetrate the skull, and anything that penetrates the skull, well, isn't good for you anyways. I would not PREFER to use a .22/.22 MAG, but in a pinch i sure would use it. Not trying to pick on anyone at all, just giving my opinion.


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## rccola712 (Aug 26, 2008)

This article and therefore this thread is about comparing accepted self defense ammunition... .380/9mm/.38 Spl/.357 Mag/10mm/.40/.45, and the like. It is saying that in a self defense scenario, there is no 'best' round for all situations, it is completely dependent on what the shooter is best able to control, shoot, ect. This is the fact that 'placement is power' as stated in the article. Yes, a .22 has potential to be lethal, everyone knows this, but it is not an accepted self defense round. as steve said, in order to drop someone you have to have pinpoint accuracy and hit incredibly small targets perfectly. So yes, you can kill someone with a .22, but it may take a while.


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## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

Everyone calm down. I think it is obvious no one on this thread would choose a 22lr or 22 mag for self - defense. I want to change this discussion a little. Is there any good reason for me to use a 22 mag for varmints, chucks, possum, and the like, instead of a 22lr? Isn't the 22lr good enough for that?


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## Desertrat (Apr 26, 2007)

Just remember.....the ER's around the country are filled with people hit by.22's....and some don't make it.


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