# Any HVAC guys on this forum?



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

We bought our house in 1988. The heating / cooling system is a Whirlpool, 2.5 ton, 30K BTU, and I'm not all that sure of the SEER rating. I suspect it's about 10 or so. 

It is a combo pack, meaning the heating / cooling system is all in one unit, and it sits on top of the house on the roof. It's been a good one, but it's time to replace it, rather than put more money into repairs. 

I've had a total of four contractors come out to give quotes. three of the four are close in price, and one is clear out in left field. 

The brands being mentioned are Goodman, Carrier, Ruud / Rheem and Trane. We are going to stay at 2.5-3 ton, with a SEER rating of 14-16, but not higher. 

Our house is only about 1400 sq. feet living space. Of the brands mentioned, is one clearly better than the others? I was told that Goodman is made in China, Carrier possibly in Mexico, and Ruud / Rheem and Trane in the USA. 

Myself, I'm leaning towards the Trane. All will have hail guards on them and the Trane has a powder-coated body / shell. The Ruud guy said that his also has powder-coated paint. Powder-coating is important to me as the sun here in AZ. is brutal. 

The Trane model # is XL15C and the Ruud model # is RGEA15. 

Any and all information that you can pass on to me will be greatly appreciated.


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## Ducksoup (May 13, 2017)

Goodman was bought by Daikin, a Japanese firm. They are, however, made in Texas. Consumers energy did a report that showed all makes are fairly close in reliability and instead it was the installation that would make or break the equipment. Ask to see pictures of other installations each company has done, talk to your code officials who approve the work done to find out who does good quality work. Sometimes going with the cheapest isn't always the best as you get what you pay for. Compare apples to apples, why is it that left field company is out of line with the other three prices ( replacing more items? Including more parts?) What is the service like after you've had equipment installed? Does each company replace everything or just the main pieces of the unit and skip things like gas shut offs, electrical connections, drains, filter cabinets, vents etc.

Ps I joined to reply to this thread..and also because I'm hopefully going to purchase my first handgun soon and need more knowledge in this area.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Ducksoup said:


> Goodman was bought by Daikin, a Japanese firm. They are, however, made in Texas. Consumers energy did a report that showed all makes are fairly close in reliability and instead it was the installation that would make or break the equipment. Ask to see pictures of other installations each company has done, talk to your code officials who approve the work done to find out who does good quality work. Sometimes going with the cheapest isn't always the best as you get what you pay for. Compare apples to apples, why is it that left field company is out of line with the other three prices ( replacing more items? Including more parts?) What is the service like after you've had equipment installed? Does each company replace everything or just the main pieces of the unit and skip things like gas shut offs, electrical connections, drains, filter cabinets, vents etc.
> 
> Ps I joined to reply to this thread..and also because I'm hopefully going to purchase my first handgun soon and need more knowledge in this area.


I made sure all four contractors gave me an "all in" price. That is to say, that they will inspect all ductwork, valves, drains, filters, whatever is needed to complete the job 100%.

They will not leave until it's a whole new unit. That also includes having a certified roofer come over and seal all that's needed. Elect. runs to the unit itself will be replaced, as well as the condensate line, and a particulate filter for the natural gas.

All four assured me that they will not nickel and dime me in any way. If ductwork needs to be repaired, that is included. Two of the contractors actually went up into the attic and was pleased with what they saw. It was my understanding that our ductwork is of better quality then what is being installed today.

The standard warranties seem to be very similar in regards to parts & labor. Like I said, for the money, either Trane or Ruud seems to be the way to go. Extended warranties are available, but they are pricey and I have been told to pass on them. Spend that money on an annual service agreement instead.

BTW....welcome to the forum. Lots of great people here who know more about firearms that what might be thought of as normal.

You got questions? We got answers! :smt033


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

I just replaced my furnace and air conditioner.... I went with Bryant 2 stage furnace with variable speed blower and a 13 SEER 1.5 ton A/C have 1000 SQ FT -- Total cost $5970.00

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/top-10-air-conditioner-brands/

https://asm-air.com/heating/top-10-furnace-brands-of-2016/


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Cait43 said:


> I just replaced my furnace and air conditioner.... I went with Bryant 2 stage furnace with variable speed blower and a 13 SEER 1.5 ton A/C have 1000 SQ FT -- Total cost $5970.00
> 
> https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/top-10-air-conditioner-brands/
> 
> https://asm-air.com/heating/top-10-furnace-brands-of-2016/


None of the contractors I've spoken to carry Bryant. But, the price you paid is very close to what I'm seeing. The last contractor I spoke to, will be sending his bid to me via e-mail on Monday. He did give me a ballpark estimate while at our house, but said his final one will be to the penny.

The cost difference between the least expensive generic brand (Goodman) to the Trane I'm considering is right at $1000.00. I plan to call the Ruud factory on Monday and get some info. first hand from them.

If there was a huge difference in price between Trane and the rest, my decision would be easier.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

According to Consumers' Union (_Consumer Reports_ magazine), the *failure rate* for Whole-House Heat-Pump systems, least failures to most failures, is:
American Standard...31%
Bryant....................34%
Trane......................37%
Carrier....................38%
Lennox...................38%
Ruud......................43%
Amana....................43%
Rheem....................44%
Goodman................48%
York.......................50%

The failure rates for "Conventional" Whole-House systems are:
American Standard...20%
Lennox....................21%
Trane......................21%
Bryant.....................23%
Carrier.....................24%
Rheem.....................27%
York........................28%
Goodman.................29%
Amana.....................30%

Does that help?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> According to Consumers' Union (_Consumer Reports_ magazine), the *failure rate* for Whole-House Heat-Pump systems, least failures to most failures, is:
> 
> American Standard...31%
> Bryant....................34%
> ...


It mentioned heat pump. That is different than the system I'm looking at. The system I need is a gas pack. The furnace is gas fired (nat. gas) and the A/C is of course electric.

Heat pump systems are less effective than a gas pack unit. They consume more electricity, while at the same time, produce less BTUs.

But, it was interesting none-the-less looking at the outcome.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

See my second set of scores, below the heat-pump scores.
They're for "conventional" whole-house systems. (But I dunno what "conventional" means.)


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> See my second set of scores, below the heat-pump scores.
> They're for "conventional" whole-house systems. (But I dunno what "conventional" means.)


For some reason, the 2nd set of stats didn't show up initially.

Now that it has, I'm liking what I seeing, in regards to a Trane system. And yes, it helped. :smt038

Conventional system is what I'm looking at. Notice that the conventional system failure rate stats are lower than that of a heat pump system?


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## Ducksoup (May 13, 2017)

I mostly work with Amana and Carrier and prefer to install the Amana brand (Goodmans version of a Cadillac) because it is an easier install. Nothing wrong with Carrier (Payne, Bryant, Carrier etc are the same company), just the locations of some of their test ports are goofy and a pita to get to.* A quality install will make or break a system.* I replaced a 10 yr old system recently because the venting had a slight sag which caused water build up which made the inducer work harder and also the water collected particulates which eventually ran back through the drain system plugging that up and the secondary heat exchanger killing the system.. all this could have been prevented if the installers had added one more vent support.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Don't know if it makes a difference or not, but of the four contractors that came to give me an estimate, two of them were the actual owners of the company. 

Both assured me that their quote was rock solid and would not go up due to nickel and diming. I liked that for obvious reasons, as well as knowing that I was speaking to the owner and not an estimator. 

I did what I could when speaking to all four contractors, that I've done my research as best I could, to learn enough about what I wanted to buy. I didn't want to portray myself as someone who didn't care enough to investigate or learn about what he was spending his money on. 

I tried to ask the right questions and be knowledgeable. And, I schooled my wife as well, so she knows what is going on, and why we are asking the questions that we are. 

She's no dummy that's for sure. If you recall, she's the one that wanted her own 1/2" capacity, multi-speed, Lithium-ion, DeWalt drill for Christmas. :mrgreen:


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks to Steve and post #6, the wife and I have decided on a brand. 

I found out that American Standard and Trane are the same company. I verified this by calling one of the contractors that carry Trane. 

Two of the contractors that gave us quotes, carry Trane. One is more aggressive about not being undersold by the other. I called him back, told him what we wanted. A Trane, 2.5 ton, and either a 14 or a 15 SEER unit. 

Now, we just wait for the final revised quote. :smt033

And a big thanks to Steve! :smt023


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"We endeavour to please, sir." -Jeeves (by P.G. Woodhouse)


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

paratrooper,
Being a guy who retired from the HVAC business after almost 45 years (almost 20 of which was as a technician in a truck!), I think I may have some input that you may find beneficial. I have serviced EVERY manufacturer's equipment out there. Even though Daikin did in fact buyout Goodman, it is not of the same quality as the Daikin VRV systems. We were huge Trane dealers in WNY, when I left there. BUT, when it came time for me to replace the unit at our home down here in KY I went with a RHEEM system. Mine is also a package gas/ac system. The reason I selected the RHEEM is based upon the quality of the contractor. Pretty much ANY of the major manufacturer's products are going to serve you very well. Usually when you hear someone just screaming bloody murder about how they got hose by this manufacturer, or that manufacturer, it is due to a slipshod installation. I could have gotten a smoking deal on both Trane or Bryant due to my relationship with the factories, and the amount of equipment I purchased when still in WNY. I didn't want to do an install, and wasn't happy with the level of expertise available by the local installing contractor network down here. 
First and foremost, did any of them actually do a load calculation on the house? DO NOT let anyone tell you bigger is better. The problem is if the AC ends up oversized, you will drop the temperature before you wring out enough humidity in the house. This will lead to HUGE problems down the road. The other thing is if you do not already have an attic exhaust fan, have 1 installed (assuming you have a pitched roof with some vented attic space of course!). The fan will lower your cooling load by approx. 1/2 ton, which may not sound like much, until you see the bills. The energy credits ran out this year for high efficiency equipment upgrades (they were only $300). 
We're traveling this week, but if you want to drop me a PM with any questions you might have I will try to answer them for you.

Good luck!

ETA: Just saw your most recent post. Yes American Standard and Trane are the EXACT unit. Sounds like you are choosing wisely. Just be sure you are comfortable with the contractor you ultimately choose. You will be way happier if it costs you a couple of bucks more to do business with someone you feel you can trust, and more importantly, who will be responsive if/when you need service.

MO


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

MoMan said:


> paratrooper,
> Being a guy who retired from the HVAC business after almost 45 years (almost 20 of which was as a technician in a truck!), I think I may have some input that you may find beneficial. I have serviced EVERY manufacturer's equipment out there. Even though Daikin did in fact buyout Goodman, it is not of the same quality as the Daikin VRV systems. We were huge Trane dealers in WNY, when I left there. BUT, when it came time for me to replace the unit at our home down here in KY I went with a RHEEM system. Mine is also a package gas/ac system. The reason I selected the RHEEM is based upon the quality of the contractor. Pretty much ANY of the major manufacturer's products are going to serve you very well. Usually when you hear someone just screaming bloody murder about how they got hose by this manufacturer, or that manufacturer, it is due to a slipshod installation. I could have gotten a smoking deal on both Trane or Bryant due to my relationship with the factories, and the amount of equipment I purchased when still in WNY. I didn't want to do an install, and wasn't happy with the level of expertise available by the local installing contractor network down here.
> First and foremost, did any of them actually do a load calculation on the house? DO NOT let anyone tell you bigger is better. The problem is if the AC ends up oversized, you will drop the temperature before you wring out enough humidity in the house. This will lead to HUGE problems down the road. The other thing is if you do not already have an attic exhaust fan, have 1 installed (assuming you have a pitched roof with some vented attic space of course!). The fan will lower your cooling load by approx. 1/2 ton, which may not sound like much, until you see the bills. The energy credits ran out this year for high efficiency equipment upgrades (they were only $300).
> We're traveling this week, but if you want to drop me a PM with any questions you might have I will try to answer them for you.
> ...


Thanks for the reply and information. Of the four contractors that came to give quotes, only two handled Trane, and of those two, only one sold them exclusively.

Of those two that sell Trane, one came in at $5521.00, and the other was a bit over $6100.00, for the same exact unit. I went on the BBB web-site and found that the guy who wanted the higher quote, had seven feedbacks, four of which were negative. The other guy had a total of four feedbacks, three of which were positive.

The guy with the lower quote was the one that suggested I check my local BBB. He also talked about the quality of the install / work as being just as important as the quality of the unit / components.

Anyways, I called the guy back with the lower quote and told him he had the job. He also told me that his quote is an "all in" quote. There will be no nickel and diming that will take place. That's an out the door, end of the day, all taxes incl., including any and all incentives, rebates, etc., price.

I feel good about making the choice and having him do the work. He also warned me about not letting anyone talk me into a larger unit then was necessary. My current unit is a 2.5 ton. And yes, he is going to do a complete inspection of the ductwork, as well as a load test.

And I will ask him about an attic fan (which we don't have) as well as the possibility of having some more blown-in insulation installed. We had that done when we bought the house (in addition to what was already there). One of the four contractors did suggest that we increase the insulation in the attic.

I appreciate you taking the time and making the effort to post what you did. Knowledge is a good thing. It is empowerment. I thank-you for it.


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## Ducksoup (May 13, 2017)

Glad to hear you have selected a company to work with. MoMan hit the nail on the head with oversized units..bigger is not always better especially in the hvac business. Now that you have the contractor and unit, do you have a service plan to go with it? Regular check ups can help keep it running at peak efficiency and help you get the maximum lifespan out of your hvac equipment. Keeping those filters changed is critical to making sure your blower isn't working harder than it should, which in turn keeps the amp draw lower and the heat exchanger doesn't get plugged up with dirt or the bottom of the ac evaporator. (You wouldn't believe how many times I've pulled a furnace out and the ac coil was plugged solid..and surprise surprise..the heat exchanger was cracked because it couldn't get rid of the heat). Also cleaning the condenser fins keeps your ac running at peak efficiency.


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

I know your decision has been made, but let me just relate a little information. I live in a small subdivision (19 houses) all built between 2005 and 2010. There were three different contractors who built in our subdivision. The original contractor built 12 of the 19 houses. ALL 12 houses had Goodman heat pumps. ALL 12 Goodman's have had to be replaced. None lasted more than 7 years. 9 families went with Trane. 8 ended up using the same HVAC firm. 1 unit was defective and had to be replaced in the first 30 days. The 3 that did not get Tranes, got 1 Rheem, 1 Bryant, and 1 Carrier. 

Yes, I was one of the people who went with Trane, and have been well satisfied with the service I have received.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks again to all of you. 

I buy my furnace filters in bulk and change them out routinely. It's easy to do, as the return air vent is located in our hallway and I'm tall enough to change out the filters w/o the need for a step stool. :smt033

I do plan to talk to my Trane contractor about a service contract. I've been told that a service check in the Spring and again in the Fall is a good idea. 

I'm hoping that he might cut me a good deal on something like that. 

Anyways, it's a big load off my shoulders knowing what brand we are going to get and feel good about the company installing it. Their business is located a little more than a mile from where we live. Family owned and operated as well. The owner's wife is the office manager and answers the phones. The owner and his wife are both very pleasant and polite.


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

Sounds like you've done the proper due-diligence, which usually ends with a GREAT project.

It's funny how many people will neglect importance of changing filters regularly, then complain when the system isn't operating properly. When they finally decide to place a service call, the tech is the bad guy because: "all he found was a plugged filter". The best is when it comes time to pay the bill and they aren't happy, because: "I could have changed that"!!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Our new heating & cooling system gets installed tomorrow. We went to a home & garden show yesterday. Talked to a company called AeroSeal that seals duct work from the inside. They also sell and install attic fans that are thermostat controlled. 

Once the rooftop system is up and running, they will come by and inspect all the duct work and do an efficiency test / rating on it. 

Gonna be a busy week. That's okay though.......I'm retired. :smt033


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Our new heating & cooling system is in place. Took two guys right at three hours from start to finish. 

Crane guy showed up on time and all went smooth, removing old system and placing the new one. The owner of the company will be by later this week to do load tests and conduct a full inspection of the duct system. 

And, we got a Honeywell large display read-out thermostat. Back lit, and real simple and easy to use. No need for a programmable unit. 

It's real nice having heat and a/c again. :smt033


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

Schaweeeet!!:smt023


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks again to all of you for the advice, tips, and information. Your help made our choice of a unit much easier. :smt023


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> It's real nice having heat and a/c again. :smt033


Just remember, Trump requires all new HVAC units to be programed to put out heat only in the summer and cooling only in the winter. :smt082


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