# Home Defence....Reload or Factory?



## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I have become aware that the general rule of thinking is that you use factory loaded ammo. My original plan was to buy cheap ammo and reload the brass with my own home defence loads. I ordered up some Hornady .451 200 GR HP/XTP bullets for just this reason and planned on working with a powder to get both velosity and accuracy. My thoughts are that you are using a standard reloading formula and therefore are not creating some mutant load that is designed to kill on contact any more than the factory loaded Hornady XTP ammo. If I coated the bullets with teflon or cut grooves in the tip for better expantion there would be an argument here. I think it's a pretty flimsy arguement when standard reloading practices are used by the book. Maybe it is better to be safe than sorry but I think it is B.S. that you gotta pay huge amounts of money for half the ammo that is supose to be for "Home Defence"


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## forestranger (Jan 20, 2008)

Lots of "experts" say don't use reloads for both liability and quality reasons. I started reloading in 1967 for cost savings and because there wasn't any decent "woods carry" or SD factory ammo available. That's no longer true. Lots of factory ammo available as good or probably better than anything I can reload. I carried a SW airweight Bodyguard with slightly less than +p 158 LHP handload for years because it shot to POA and they didn't make a factory equivalent. Still feel it's much more important that you're legal to shoot than what you shoot. My advice is find a factory load you like, then duplicate it in a handload and practice with that but carry the factory load...mainly due to quality of factory ammo.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm just getting back in to reloading after a number of years of a layoff. My loads that I was using for my .357 were better in accuracy than anything I was able to buy at the time and velocity was probably hotter. If you set up your equipment correctly your hand loads are going to be equal to or better than anything you can buy in my opinion. I am willing to trust my life on what I've developed from established safe load data far quicker than a machine that is pumping out thousands of rounds per hour that is set up to deliver a genericly safe load designed to cover the expected variables of the machine. I'm betting that even the variables that are inherent to our bulk powder measures are far more accurate than the factory systems.
I guess it's really a moot point in that the odds of me having to shoot someone are pretty low. I don't live or travel in high risk areas that much. Most BG's can't afford to live were I live. If I do it will be because I really needed to "SMIGHT" the sucker in the first place so hopefully the law will be on my side as well as the sircumstances.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

If you do decide to go the reload route, make sure to store away some "exemplar" loads from the _same_ batch of reloads you are using for defense. This way if there is a question about the distance the shot was fired, the forensics people can use your exemplars to recreate powder dispersion, etc.

I know everyone thinks they can make reloads better than the factories, but I have seen a lot more guns choke (I mean real jams, not simple malfunctions) on reloads than factory ammo. YMMV.


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## forestranger (Jan 20, 2008)

I recently chronographed some 20 year old 38Sp and 45acp reloads and some new factory loads. My ancient loads had much better SD and ES and chronographed right what the old 1967 Lyman manual said they were supposed to do. Agree that my 38s, 357s, and 45acp(w/lead bullets) are more accurate than lots of factory loads I've tried. I never could get jacketed bullets in autos tight enough to prevent an occasional bullet set back so I just stuck to lead for 45. Think factories use "cement" on non-crimped jacketed auto rounds.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

forestranger said:


> I never could get jacketed bullets in autos tight enough to prevent an occasional bullet set back so I just stuck to lead for 45. Think factories use "cement" on non-crimped jacketed auto rounds.


 That's bad news! I'm in the process of ramping up a .45ACP reload program.....I hope you're wrong 
I guess time will tell. I'll be shooting a lot of my own so I'll know the score soon enough. If I find a reliability problem I can't address then it's plan B.....Factory loads. I have some copper plated 200GR HP's that I will load light for practice and the Hornady's will be full house. Both will get cycled a whole bunch so if there are bugs I should find it out in short order.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I went to the range today with a box of 50 factory ammo just to get in some regular shooting time. I walked away with over 150 shells. I'm loving it.
There was this group of young people....three guys and two girl friends! I just sat in the car and watched.....Pretty Scarey! Lousy gun handling and stuff like a 9mm in each hand and blasting away like in the movies. I just waited till they were done.


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## Dragonfire (Jun 17, 2007)

Use the reloads for pratice. If you use reloads and you actually use it in self defense I am fairly sure this will come up in any trial that is subsequent. I am a huge fan of using factory ammunition with "personal self defense" on the box (ie like winchester loads). If for instance your uncomfortable with the stopping power then move up a caliber (9mm to 40 etc).


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Dragonfire said:


> Use the reloads for pratice. If you use reloads and you actually use it in self defense I am fairly sure this will come up in any trial that is subsequent. I am a huge fan of using factory ammunition with "personal self defense" on the box (ie like winchester loads). If for instance your uncomfortable with the stopping power then move up a caliber (9mm to 40 etc).


I ain't got no problem with stopping power with my .45ACP:smt068
FMJ's placed right would do in a pinch me thinks:smt033


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm no lawyer but handloads just gives the District Attorney and the civil attorney that will bring suit against you something else to use against you. Don't think you can just tell them they are the same as factory loads as they will ask you if you tested the loads in pressure vessels to be sure they meet SAAMI specs. blah, blah,blah. They will make you out to be a viglanti who laid in wait with super loads for the poor innocent misguided young man who had such potential blah..... You may beat the charges and subsequent lawsuit(s) but the cost will be steep.

I handload and use the handloads for practice and factory for carry. Factory loads by no means insure the above won't happen it just takes away one more stick to beat you with.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

TerryP said:


> I'm no lawyer but handloads just gives the District Attorney and the civil attorney that will bring suit against you something else to use against you. Don't think you can just tell them they are the same as factory loads as they will ask you if you tested the loads in pressure vessels to be sure they meet SAAMI specs. blah, blah,blah. They will make you out to be a viglanti who laid in wait with super loads for the poor innocent misguided young man who had such potential blah..... You may beat the charges and subsequent lawsuit(s) but the cost will be steep.


The problem with this argument against reloads for defense is that even its biggest proponent, Mas Ayoob, can't produce a case where a shooter was convicted or even lost a lawsuit based on using reloads. The best he can offer is a suicide where a bystander was accused of murdering the suicidal person, based on some rather sketchy evidence involving powder dispersion and questionable handloads. The bystander was eventually acquitted.

Still, I can see the potential for a problem in some jurisdictions, so if I were to use reloads for defense, I would (a) load lighter rather than hotter than factory ammo, and (b) have the exemplar loads available, as I mentioned above.


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

The justice system is meant to be adversarial. That means that an attorney must present the worst possible scenario to make his/her case. If s/he does not attempt to bring into question the testimony of the opposing side, then s/he is not doing his/her job.

That said, it is your attorney's job to present you in the best possible light. 

Just because an attorney can bring to court this argument or that argument does not mean that you have lost the case. It simply means the attorney is doing his/her job, as painful as that may feel.

It is up to your attorney to convince the judge or jury that you did all that was proper. 

Trials are painful, but there are always two sides that MUST be heard by the judge and jury.

Using handloads in self defense may be an issue the prosecution brings up, but, as Mike points out that does not automatically mean you will be convicted. 

I don't see the need to practice with handloads and carry factory. That sounds just as pre-meditated as making "practice loads" and "self-defence" loads. Besides, if you only practice with handloads, how will you get good with the factory loads?

WM


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Well, practicing with handloads is very often less expensive than practice with factory ammo, so it makes good economic sense. When I competed, there was _no way_ in the world I could have afforded to shoot the prodigious amounts I did if I didn't reload. And any halfway decent handloader can easily concoct loads that mimic factory ammo in recoil and point of impact.

A miss, due to lack of practice, that hits a bystander will land you in a whole lot more legal hot water than using reloads for extensive practice. I don't see a problem carrying factory and shooting reloads for practice, as long as you shoot enough factory to know it's reliable in your gun.


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## JohnnyFlake (Jan 30, 2008)

Handloads are great for practice, out door plinking and competition shooting, etc., however, when it comes down to personal defense, I am an advocate of Factory Loads! IMHO, the four most important reasons you should only consider Factory Loads for personal defense are Reliability, Reliability, Reliability and Legal Issues. Oh!. did I mention Reliability! 

Johnny


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## PanaDP (Jul 20, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> Still, I can see the potential for a problem in some jurisdictions, so if I were to use reloads for defense, I would (a) load lighter rather than hotter than factory ammo, and (b) have the exemplar loads available, as I mentioned above.


Admittedly, I haven't given this a lot of serious thought. It will be a while before I can seriously consider CCW. I will have to live in my state for another year and a half.

What Mike mentions above would be the draw of handloading SD loads for myself, if I decided to do it. Through some simple testing, one could find the lowest velocity that consistently expands the hollowpoints of your choice. Loading to that or a little above for safely, theoretically anyway, would provide an adequate SD load and probably end up lighter than factory loads. That would make follow up shots easier and, in the event of a lawsuit, would make you look much less evil. What kind of awful, guntoting villain loads his shots lighter?


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## JohnnyFlake (Jan 30, 2008)

PanaDP said:


> Admittedly, I haven't given this a lot of serious thought. It will be a while before I can seriously consider CCW. I will have to live in my state for another year and a half.
> 
> What Mike mentions above would be the draw of handloading SD loads for myself, if I decided to do it. Through some simple testing, one could find the lowest velocity that consistently expands the hollowpoints of your choice. Loading to that or a little above for safely, theoretically anyway, would provide an adequate SD load and probably end up lighter than factory loads. That would make follow up shots easier and, in the event of a lawsuit, would make you look much less evil. What kind of awful, guntoting villain loads his shots lighter?


What your suggesting may be doable if you are using a revolver. However, if you are using a semi-auto, which seems to be favored far more than revolvers now days, you need to be very careful when loading lighter loads than standard factory loads for any type of bullet. The reason being, is that a lighter load may not reliably operate the recoil and ejection system on your weapon of choice. Food for thought!


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

PanaDP said:


> and, in the event of a lawsuit, would make you look much less evil. What kind of awful, guntoting villain loads his shots lighter?


Attorney: "So, Mr. PanaDP, you used handloads with less powder so that you cause a slower, more painful death, isn't that true?"

"Did you used to pull the wings off of flys, and set fire to cats as a kid, too?"

"And are you still beating your wife? Yes or no, please."

Doesn't matter what you do, if they want to make you look evil, they will.

Just do what you believe is responsible, and forget worrying about how attorneys will attack you.

For every defense, there is an offense.

Its up to the jury or judge to make the decision, anyway.

WM


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

PanaDP said:


> Through some simple testing, one could find the lowest velocity that consistently expands the hollowpoints of your choice.


Heed *JohnnyFlake's* wise words on gun functioning. Light loads that barely cycle an auto under sterile range conditions are very low on the ladder of good defense choices.

Anyway, the only testing medium that gives realistic feedback on bullet performance is calibrated ordnance gelatin. It is _anything_ but simple to work with. When I worked for a gun importer I was assigned to do some bullet testing. We dutifully ordered gelatin for our tests - what a _gigantic_ PIA.

I know the gun rags like to use stuff like gallons of water, wet phone books, etc. But all this tells you is how bullets work in water or wetpack, not how they work in people.


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