# possible issue with px4...



## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Ok so since i havnt been able to shiit my new px4 compact (due to lack of ammo supply) ive been doing some practice with it trying to get accoustom to it. Like drawing it taking it off of safe and dry firing. Ive noticed that in order for me to manipulate the saftey and even the mag realease i must re adjust my grip. Ive found that i can flip the saftey off with my non firing hand as i draw the weapon. Its just kind of annoying not being able to manipulate the controls with one hand. Is this normal or are my hands just to dang small. I already have the smallest backstrap on as well.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

youngvet24 said:


> Ok so since i havnt been able to shiit my new px4 compact (due to lack of ammo supply) ive been doing some practice with it trying to get accoustom to it. Like drawing it taking it off of safe and dry firing. Ive noticed that in order for me to manipulate the saftey and even the mag realease i must re adjust my grip. Ive found that i can flip the saftey off with my non firing hand as i draw the weapon. Its just kind of annoying not being able to manipulate the controls with one hand. Is this normal or are my hands just to dang small. I already have the smallest backstrap on as well.


Well, what I would do is reverse your mag release to the right side if you're right handed and use your right index finger to release the magazine for a quicker reload if you must. As far as the safety, I'd just carry the pistol in a holster that covers the trigger w/ the safety off being the pistol is a DA if your hands are too small to disengage it.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Ill have to try that thanks.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

If you are doing a lot of dry firing practice(a good thing) I'd suggest snap caps(recommended in the manual) if you haven't got them already.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thats what ive heard but i dont know where to find them


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Brownells. Click on: World's Largest Supplier of Gun Parts, Gunsmith Tools & Shooting Accessories - Brownells


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Steve: that site had basically everything i could use i just dont know what to look for lol


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Lol blonde roots must be getting to me i realize why you poated the site thanks


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

youngvet24 said:


> Thats what ive heard but i dont know where to find them


Most gun shops carry them as a standard inventory item.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

This is why I would never buy a gun with an external safety for carry and home defense. Yes, that is strictly a personal preference and I well admit to that. Other's mileage may vary. Do what denner suggested above;

"I'd just carry the pistol in a holster that covers the trigger w/ the safety off being the pistol is a DA if your hands are too small to disengage it."

That way you won't have to concern yourself with the safety. Granted you can train for most anything. But it is best to keep in mind that when the chips are down and your butt is about to experience some serious sphincter contractions due to an immediate extreme encounter, the fewer things you have to do to get your gun into action the better.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thats pretty much what ivve been thinking. I like the saftey precaution of the DA. Im not really liking the external saftey so far. But ill keep training and eventually take it to the range. Andsee what happens. Hind sight is always 20/20


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Youngvet
A slight grip adjustment is not uncommon when operating a firearm , be careful not to lose control of the handgun when trying to manipulate everything with one hand .
I am right handed but prefer to use my left hand to drop the mag And rack the slide. 
Use your left hand as needed, your left hand will be on the gun as you shoot.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thats basically what i have to do. Im faster using my left hand to take the saftey off than i am trying to re adjust my grip


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

youngvet24 said:


> Thats basically what i have to do. Im faster using my left hand to take the saftey off than i am trying to re adjust my grip


When using your left hand to take the safety off, with your left hand also, you now have the opportunity to cock the hammer for the first shot.

Practicing the trigger pull in double action for the first shot is good practice . But you do have the option of cocking the hammer for the first shot


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thats true but in a deffinsive standpoint speed and precision are vital so i dont wanna have to worry about manipulating too many controls so i can save on time


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

1. The fastest draw begins with a full firing grip, requiring no later adjustment, before ever beginning the presentation from the holster.
2. The quickest presentation comes after lots and lots of slow, smooth practice. Practice doing the job slowly. Go for smoothness. Quickness comes "automatically" after lots of practice. (The key word, in pistol shooting, is *practice*: lots and lots of slow, smooth _practice_.)
3. Don't try to thumb-cock the hammer for your first shot. You chose a Traditional Double Action (TDA) trigger system, so you'll have to learn to use it. If you try to thumb-cock, you will eventually experience a negligent discharge. You may even shoot yourself in the leg.
4. Once the pistol has been made safe, push the safety to "off." Keep your finger away from the trigger, put your thumb on the gun's hammer, and holster the pistol. Use your thumb to push the pistol down into your holster, so you know that it won't accidentally discharge in the process. (If the hammer starts moving under your thumb, you will know that something is seriously wrong. Check it out before continuing.)
5. Now you may completely disregard the safety lever. The first shot's double-action trigger pull, and your own, functioning brain, are the only safety mechanisms you need. (Of the two, your brain is the most important.)


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Youngvet
Shooting defensively in single action would be faster and more accurate, if the situation allows.
If you hear an intruder downstairs in your home, would you cock the hammer back to put the firearm in single action mode or keep the px4 in double action mode?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

You pays your money, and you makes your choice...

If you thumb-cock into single-action mode, you had better have practiced it a lot beforehand.
If you "go hunting" in your home in single-action mode, you had better have practiced a whole lot of shoot/no-shoot drills beforehand.

It's your gun, your home, and (at least potentially) your family, so it's all your choice.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> 1. The fastest draw begins with a full firing grip, requiring no later adjustment, before ever beginning the presentation from the holster.
> 2. The quickest presentation comes after lots and lots of slow, smooth practice. Practice doing the job slowly. Go for smoothness. Quickness comes "automatically" after lots of practice. (The key word, in pistol shooting, is *practice*: lots and lots of slow, smooth _practice_.)
> 3. Don't try to thumb-cock the hammer for your first shot. You chose a Traditional Double Action (TDA) trigger system, so you'll have to learn to use it. If you try to thumb-cock, you will eventually experience a negligent discharge. You may even shoot yourself in the leg.
> 4. Once the pistol has been made safe, push the safety to "off." Keep your finger away from the trigger, put your thumb on the gun's hammer, and holster the pistol. Use your thumb to push the pistol down into your holster, so you know that it won't accidentally discharge in the process. (If the hammer starts moving under your thumb, you will know that something is seriously wrong. Check it out before continuing.)
> 5. Now you may completely disregard the safety lever. The first shot's double-action trigger pull, and your own, functioning brain, are the only safety mechanisms you need. (Of the two, your brain is the most important.)


I would totally have to agree with Steve on this one. Cocking the hammer to get the first shot off defeats the purpose of having a DA pistol, you might just as well go with a SA or DOA if that's the case. It is likewise not recommended to cock the hammer of a .38spl snubbie for SD purposes.

Foregoing the first DA pull is counterproductive in a SD situation as time and the chances of missing the hammer or half cocking the hammer and it's ramifications are outweighed by practice, practice, practice of the first DA pull and transitioning to the SA pull in which the pistol was designed for. Not having faith in your accuracy for the first DA pull is far, far, from optimal.

Fortunately, the PX4's have a very nice somewhat short and crisp first DA pull which is very easy to get your shot on target and transitioning to SA w/ accuracy via practice as Steve has so eloquently stated. In other words and in my experience the PX4 DA pistol is about as good as your gonna get in a stock DA platform.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I thought we were keeping our fingers off the trigger guys.
The px4 does have a blocking mechanism .
Remember the 1911 , single action, great trigger.
Why not ,given the opportunity switch to single action .


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

youngvet24 said:


> Thats pretty much what ivve been thinking. I like the saftey precaution of the DA. Im not really liking the external saftey so far. But ill keep training and eventually take it to the range. Andsee what happens. Hind sight is always 20/20


You have to train w/ the safety on or safety off. Or convert it to a "G" model which has no safety and is always ready to go. My Beretta PX4 compact and 92"G" Police Special are "G" models. No worrying about safeties on them rest assured.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pic said:


> I thought we were keeping our fingers off the trigger guys...


Did someone recommend having a finger on the gun's trigger?
If someone did, I haven't noticed it.

Please indicate the text in question.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

pic said:


> I thought we were keeping our fingers off the trigger guys.
> The px4 does have a blocking mechanism .
> Remember the 1911 , single action, great trigger.
> Why not ,given the opportunity switch to single action .


Pic, that is true with Beretta's, no matter what you do with the hammer, if you have your finger or whatever off the bang switch it won't go bang. But then again if you practice to shoot the first DA well why bother?


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Steve: i agree with what your saying i hve no need in pulling the hammer back (my prefrence) if that was the case i would have bought a SA handgun. As far as my brain being a saftey im pretty confident in that aspect i have enough training thats been embeded in my soul. A saying they always taught us that still holds true today is "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast" . I like the DA pull the px4 has it seems to be just right.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Did someone recommend having a finger on the gun's trigger?
> If someone did, I haven't noticed it.
> 
> Please indicate the text in question.


you definitely stated "keep your finger off the trigger"

I agree with what you said, it's spot on for great advice.
Especially the point stressed about Quality first


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Just to clarify with everyone. My finger NEVER touches the trigger until i want the gun to fire


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

youngvet24 said:


> ..."slow is smooth, and smooth is fast"...


Add to that: "Smooth is faster than fast."

My mentor was a former Marine who passed through Boot Camp with less than stellar physical abilities. He made it through on his extremely competent marksmanship with any firearm he was handed, and, later, he continued his success with his proven ability to coach other Marines into much improved riflery scores. "Smooth is faster than fast" was one of his favorite pieces of advice.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Ill have to remember that one. So what would be your suggestion for the dilema im facing with having to adjust my hand to take the saftey off? Just keep using my non firing hand?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

:watching:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

youngvet24 said:


> ...[W]hat would be your suggestion for the dilema im facing with having to adjust my hand to take the saftey off? Just keep using my non firing hand?


As I previously wrote, don't use the safety lever-except as a decocker.
• Insert a loaded magazine.
• Rack the slide to load a round into the pistol's chamber.
• Use your "offside" hand to make the safety decock the pistol, being sure to point it in a safe direction.
• Move the safety lever back to the "off" position, and _leave it there_.
• With your thumb on the gun's hammer, carefully holster the pistol.
• Tell your real "safety device" (your brain) to remember that the pistol is fully loaded and its safety is "off."

The presentation from the holster begins when you place your strong-side hand onto the pistol. Your hand grasps the pistol's handle in a completely-formed firing grip, and it tightens around the handle appropriately.
Only then do you begin to pull the pistol out of its holster, to make a completed presentation. On the gun's way up to meet wherever your eyes are focussed, your offside hand trails the pistol so that it never crosses the gun's muzzle, and then that offside hand meets the pistol and your strong-hand's firing grip, and it wraps properly into place.
The presentation is complete when the pistol's sights have reached the level of your eyes, you have formed a steady sight picture centered upon your, um, target, and then you have sent your first shot on its way.

This forum is a useful place, full of good information. But it's not a very good place to learn how to handle a self-defense pistol well. I strongly suggest that you need to go to a high-quality self-defense-pistol-shooting school, and to take at least the basic course.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

I love how you break everything down into such a simplistic form. I just dont understand the pulling of the trigger part could you break that down for me as well lol


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I could break the trigger press (not "pull") down into segments, too, if you'd like.
But you'd really have to want to learn, to get me to do it.

Talk about practice: learning the trigger press is worth a whole thread of its own.
You can get away with a lot, with a M4 at 50 yards. But pistol shooting is a whole lot less forgiving. Think "M4 at 600 yards" for something similar to pistol shooting.
Except that at pistol-defense distances, you have to do it a lot faster.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

It has been suggested to use your left hand to work the hammer and the magazine catch. This is NOT a good thing to train for nor to use if you ever have to pull that gun in your defense. The reason is this.

If your left hand or arm is disable by a bullet or hit with something like a bat or knife, or if you need it to ward off or push away an attacker, you are not going to be able to use than hand and arm for anything else. Your training should include strong hand/weak drills for sure but for draw and fire exercises, your strong hand should be the one working the controls on the gun.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

True ill keep practicing and probably due as steve said and leave the saftey off


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

denner said:


> Pic, that is true with Beretta's, no matter what you do with the hammer, if you have your finger or whatever off the bang switch it won't go bang. But then again if you practice to shoot the first DA well why bother?


The double action on a da/sa is a long pull. I like the option of having that long pull double action. But given the *opportunity*, I would cock the hammer and put the gun in single action.
If I stored my gun without a round in the chamber and after racking the slide I am now in single action mode ( unless your safety is a decocker,lol ). should I keep the gun in single action mode or lower the hammer and use its double action feature. My thought is, just because it has the feature of first shot double action, why should you stay committed to use it?
We all know sa is more accurate. 
If I were hunting with my ruger redhawk and I had a deer out about fifty yards, shouldn't I cock the double action redhawk to get off a more accurate shot. Hopefully I won't spook him with the cocking of the hammer,lol.
I totally understand that youngvet is new to handguns and he is getting the best advice available. The point i'm making might,, just be confusing at this time. We both know every situation is different.
Southern Boy also brings up a good point. What if your left arm is disabled? What if your right arm is disabled ? Do I practice shooting with my left hand? I think sometimes your just shit out of luck .


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

I understand what your saying pic. But i personally believe that if you practice enough in DA there is no need to spend the extra time cocking the hammer back. Ive been in stressful combat situations where every split second means life ir death. But ill save that for another day and bottle of jack. My thing is this: you can have your theories of what your gonna do when shit hits the fan but at all that goes to shit when when your life is on the line and adrenaline is rushing the only thing you can rely on is reflexes because thats all theres time for. You can muster up a million theories and situations and say "ill do this and ill do that" and it never works like that. Practice till its burned deep into your mind like breathing.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

youngvet24 said:


> I understand what your saying pic. But i personally believe that if you practice enough in DA there is no need to spend the extra time cocking the hammer back. Ive been in stressful combat situations where every split second means life ir death. But ill save that for another day and bottle of jack. My thing is this: you can have your theories of what your gonna do when shit hits the fan but at all that goes to shit when when your life is on the line and adrenaline is rushing the only thing you can rely on is reflexes because thats all theres time for. You can muster up a million theories and situations and say "ill do this and ill do that" and it never works like that. Practice till its burned deep into your mind like breathing.


Go shoot the gun, be safe, have fun. 
Pic


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Oh defintitly thats the best part about having a gun is tge firing part


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> The double action on a da/sa is a long pull. I like the option of having that long pull double action. But given the *opportunity*, I would cock the hammer and put the gun in single action.
> If I stored my gun without a round in the chamber and after racking the slide I am now in single action mode ( unless your safety is a decocker,lol ). should I keep the gun in single action mode or lower the hammer and use its double action feature. My thought is, just because it has the feature of first shot double action, why should you stay committed to use it?
> We all know sa is more accurate.
> If I were hunting with my ruger redhawk and I had a deer out about fifty yards, shouldn't I cock the double action redhawk to get off a more accurate shot. Hopefully I won't spook him with the cocking of the hammer,lol.
> ...


This is why I suggested that one's training should include strong hand/weak hand drills. These are one-handed drills meant to simulate not having the use of the other hand for whatever reason. In my opinion, these are very valuable drills to perform. Yes, most of our practice is going to be draw and fire with two handed holds, I prefer the isosceles stance with a bent forward solid squared off shoulder approach. However, Weaver and its variants are certainly excellent drills to run as well.

But definitely include some single strong hand/weak hand drills in your regime.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

youngvet24 said:


> I understand what your saying pic. But i personally believe that if you practice enough in DA there is no need to spend the extra time cocking the hammer back. Ive been in stressful combat situations where every split second means life ir death. But ill save that for another day and bottle of jack. *My thing is this: you can have your theories of what your gonna do when shit hits the fan but at all that goes to shit when when your life is on the line and adrenaline is rushing the only thing you can rely on is reflexes because thats all theres time for. You can muster up a million theories and situations and say "ill do this and ill do that" and it never works like that. Practice till its burned deep into your mind like breathing.*


Absolutely true. I couldn't have said it better myself. Add to this the fact that one really never knows how they are going to respond to an extreme and immediate encounter until it is staring them in the face like RIGHT NOW. We cn train for all kinds of scenarios and hope that we have done our best by instilling our actions into our instinctive reflexes, but like you said.... when the stuff hits the fan, that is when we will know if what we have done is enough and works. We'll also know if our gun and ammunition choices were right but only for that given instance.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

Thats something i never thought of i will definitly put those in my training. Ill have to look up those stances you were talking about im not familiar with all of that. When your training has become instinctive your doing the right thing


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

"We all know sa is more accurate". Well: 

Pic, I understand what you're saying, however, I promise you a DA shot can be just as accurate as a SA shot if you practice in a SD pistol like the PX4. Unlike a Ruger Redhawk shooting deer @ 50 yards, a SD pistol is very often needed where seconds can be the difference between life and death. Relying on and having the mindset of cocking the hammer in a DA for more accurate shots in a SD pistol is the wrong way to go in my opinion. I've owned DA pistols exclusively for many, many, moons. At the beginning I'd contemplate shooting the first DA into the ground to get to the SA. However, through training and much practice my DA's are as good as my SA's in general SD distances. In most scenarios, I need good quick hits in the 10 ring not pin point hunting accuracy @ 50 yards. Sure, you have the option to cock the hammer for the first shot in a DA SD pistol, but, the mindset that I can't be as accurate is the wrong one.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

denner said:


> "We all know sa is more accurate". Well:
> 
> Pic, I understand what you're saying, however, I promise you a DA shot can be just as accurate as a SA shot if you practice in a SD pistol like the PX4. Unlike a Ruger Redhawk shooting deer @ 50 yards, a SD pistol is very often needed where seconds can be the difference between life and death. Relying on and having the mindset of cocking the hammer in a DA for more accurate shots in a SD pistol is the wrong way to go in my opinion. I've owned DA pistols exclusively for many, many, moons. At the beginning I'd contemplate shooting the first DA into the ground to get to the SA. However, through training and much practice my DA's are as good as my SA's in general SD distances. In most scenarios, I need good quick hits in the 10 ring not pin point hunting accuracy @ 50 yards. Sure, you have the option to cock the hammer for the first shot in a DA SD pistol, but, the mindset that I can't be as accurate is the wrong one.


I understand time may be of the essence, but I do state "given the OPPORTUNITY" I would cock the hammer to put my auto in single action mode , thanks
PIC


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

pic said:


> I understand time may be of the essence, but I do state "given the OPPORTUNITY" I would cock the hammer to put my auto in single action mode , thanks
> PIC


I got cha Pic! Nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is that my PX4 DA can be mighty accurate in my humble experience. I probably would cock to single action trying to hit a muskrat @ 30 yards or so, but, I can stage the DA really well so it would be a toss up. Just keep those sights on target through the trigger press in either mode and it should all work out.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pic said:


> I understand time may be of the essence, but I do state "given the OPPORTUNITY" I would cock the hammer to put my auto in single action mode , thanks
> PIC


To coin a phrase: _Chacun à son gout._ :watching:

(To phrase a coin: _E Pluribus Unum_.) :mrgreen:


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

steve m1911a1 said:


> to coin a phrase: _chacun à son gout._ :watching:


oui, oui!


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> To coin a phrase: _Chacun à son gout._ :watching:
> 
> (To phrase a coin: _E Pluribus Unum_.) :mrgreen:


 Absolutely,,
YES I HAD TO GOOGLE THE PHRASE,lol.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

pic said:


> Absolutely,,
> YES I HAD TO GOOGLE THE PHRASE,lol.


Me too! lol:smt039


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

denner said:


> I got cha Pic! Nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is that my PX4 DA can be mighty accurate in my humble experience. I probably would cock to single action trying to hit a muskrat @ 30 yards or so, but, I can stage the DA really well so it would be a toss up. Just keep those sights on target through the trigger press in either mode and it should all work out.


I would bet money, you would !! HIT THAT MUSKRAT IN DOUBLE ACTION.

I also have kept my gun in double action in a situation, even though I could have cocked the hammer. One little variable can change your whole approach.
I'm starting to think I have a "hard head". Do I come across as stubborn? Thanks Mr. D


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

No matter what we sit and theorize about whats better or faster or proper i believe its whats most comfortable for the shooter


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

youngvet24 said:


> No matter what we sit and theorize about whats better or faster or proper i believe its whats most comfortable for the shooter


Yes sir, I agree. People are different. They have different wants, needs, and requirements and that is why we have a very wide firearms market to serve us. I personally think arguments between single action (think 1911) vs double action (think Beretta 92) vs double action only (think Glock and its clones) are pretty useless other than to help people new to this gain some basis from which to begin their quest for what's best for them. We all have our own personal likes and dislikes about a variety of things and guns are certainly one of these things.

As you said, what's important is what works for the individual. Really that is all that matters in the end.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...To which I am moved to add: Yeah, but you gotta learn to properly use what you've already got.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...To which I am moved to add: Yeah, but you gotta learn to properly use what you've already got.


Yep. I would think that goes without saying. What I have found myself doing over the past years is hopping from gun to gun in that search for the perfect gun (as in carry gun). In fact, there is no such thing. Granted some are better than others of which I have no doubt or argument. Two years ago, I began a process of re-evaluating my carry gun at the time, which was a gen3 Glock 23. I went through perhaps a half a dozen other guns in an effort to see if, because of normal body changes, anything might be a better choice. This process took about a year and took me right back to my venerable gen3 G23 which is once again my primary carry gun.

But the process was really a good thing in that I attained better skills with a few of those other candidate carry guns that I had had before. Better skills and a better appreciation as well. So in the event my primary gun is not available to me for some reason, I do have others in my stable that I can call upon to use with confidence. One in particular is my M&P 9mm Pro Series 4.25" barrel. A tack driver and very reliable. And there are others, too.

As a side note, this has been a good thread and I am sure a great help to the OP. Nice and civil and informative. Good show.


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## youngvet24 (Aug 21, 2013)

+ 1 on that southernboy. This thread was VERY insightful to me thanks guys


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"We endeavour to please, sir." -Jeeves, to Bertie Wooster


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