# Combat Accuracy vs Target Shooting



## SargeC4 (Dec 2, 2017)

What are everybody's thoughts on combat accuracy vs target shooting. What level accuracy versus speed of shooting is acceptable in a self defense scenario? 



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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I watched the first two minutes of this video and I wholeheartedly agree with the ideas presented.

When I go to my regular range, I do not shoot normal targets or B-27's. I shoot three different sizes of paper plates and two different sizes of index cards. My range trips are actually mini training sessions for me. I put myself through a series of drills, almost all of which are specifically geared towards defensive shooting. I make the target flip from an edge to a face presentation and back under timed intervals and do double and triple taps, draw/fire drills, reloading drills, and a number of other drills to task me in getting my gun into play quickly and effectively. I don't just shoot holes in targets, other than ten rounds for warm up at three yards and five to ten rounds at seven yards to finish up. 

There are two pretty good drills that can serve as mile markers for you as you continue along the path of improving your skills. One a draw/fire in a timed interval and the other is the triple five.

Draw/fire in timed interval. You start out with a draw from concealment when the target flips from edge to face. You have two seconds to deliver one shot in the kill zone (basically anywhere on a six inch paper plate with a preference to get that shot into the flat four inch area. The distance is no less than twelve feet and no more than fifteen feet to start. Your goal is to be able to draw and fire three shots in the same area and within the same amount of time out to seven yards.

The triple five. Set your target up at five yards with edge presentation. When the target flips to face, you have five seconds to fire five shots into the area described above from a high compressed ready position.

The most important training tactic you want to develop is speed at getting your gun into the fight and hitting an assailant quickly and first. That first hit gives you the greatest opportunity to followup with additional hits until the threat is over. You won't have time to worry about pin point accuracy or deliberate fire. Getting that gun out and firing rounds to target is your goal and will give you the best chance of walking away alive from a gunfight.

Hope this helps.


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## AllenFromPa (Dec 4, 2017)

Well i think he should have had a real life size torso target for the combat part.


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## crewchief (Jul 25, 2018)

The main problem is we can't duplicate the Pucker Factor in combat shooting at the range!!!!!!! Our B27s don't shoot back..


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

Try to keep it in an 8 inch circle. Practice every chance you get. I don't use a Glock to shoot precise. They will work, but there are better choices.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

LostinTexas said:


> Try to keep it in an 8 inch circle. Practice every chance you get. I don't use a Glock to shoot precise. They will work, but there are better choices.


I use my Glock to shoot precision. Works great! What is the problem with a Glock?

GW


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

goldwing said:


> I use my Glock to shoot precision. Works great! What is the problem with a Glock?
> 
> GW


Nothing. 
Do you shoot a single hole at say 30 feet? Bench? Long range?
If you do, more power to you. Precision, or target shooting is more times than not accomplished with a SA offering. You may not call precision the same thing I do and nothing wrong with that.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

LostinTexas said:


> Nothing.
> Do you shoot a single hole at say 30 feet? Bench? Long range?
> If you do, more power to you. Precision, or target shooting is more times than not accomplished with a SA offering. You may not call precision the same thing I do and nothing wrong with that.


sounds like a weird post. Made a bunch weird posts myself, lol.
i surely don't understand the hand placement on the target. .
Combat shooting Vs Target shooting... Hmm 
Well i think any shooting practicing, teaches,, and that's a good thing. 
have fun , be safe.✌


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

LOSTIN TEXAS "Do you shoot a single hole at say 30 feet? Bench? Long range?"

Why would you slight Glocks on your second post here? I have hit cucumbers consistently off a bench at 100 yards with my old G17.

I don't need to defend my choice of handgun. To each his own IMO.

Maybe you know of a much better value that I am unaware of?

GW


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

First, 
goldwing, that's impressive.

I have a 44 mag (7.5" barrel) that I can hit an 8" x 10" piece of paper at 100 yd (off bench) and that's just hitting the paper, not a cucumber.
With my 357 I have one load that shoots about as well at 100 yd unless a fair amount of wind is blowing, then I'd need the 44.
I'm not a Glock guy so correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't a G17 a 9mm? Impressive to be that accurate at 100 with any nine.

Back on topic.
With any SD handgun I only shoot / practice combat style, in that I only go for center of mass hits.
I shoot as far away as 25 yd and as close as 15 yd, sometimes closer. If my groups can be covered with my hand I'm shooting too slow IMO.
I practice shooting while moving laterally, forward and while backing up. (Closer than 25 yd when moving).
With 3 or 4 targets up I double tap each target. Sometimes I'll double tap the first two then one shot on the last one or two targets.


Hey crewchief,
In an attempt to duplicate the Pucker Factor maybe get somebody to shoot us in the butt with a BB gun while we practice. :anim_lol:
On second thought... probably not a good idea. :smt102


Sam


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## SargeC4 (Dec 2, 2017)

SamBond said:


> First,
> goldwing, that's impressive.
> 
> I have a 44 mag (7.5" barrel) that I can hit an 8" x 10" piece of paper at 100 yd (off bench) and that's just hitting the paper, not a cucumber.
> ...


Excellent points, and I like the way you train.

For those that say Glock's aren't accurate, here's me hitting a 12"x20" 2/3 size IDPA target at 100 yards, from a standing position, using my G41 45 acp with off the shelf target ammo. Now of course the red dot helped make this possible, but the gun its self is quite accurate.

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## crewchief (Jul 25, 2018)

Sarge, you having a problem sleeping??? Maybe you need to go to the VA?? Just kidding, when I was dropping off $$$$ all over Atlanta years back with Loomis Fargo I learned about the Pucker Factor every day in that shit hole somewhere!!! Now our best drill was the 21ft rule. They put a guy 21ft away from us on the range (side of us). Our job was to draw a fire down range before that guy grabbed us by the shouders. None of us could beat him, period. Practice that with your friends it's an eye opener!!


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## SargeC4 (Dec 2, 2017)

crewchief said:


> Sarge, you having a problem sleeping??? Maybe you need to go to the VA?? Just kidding, when I was dropping off $$$$ all over Atlanta years back with Loomis Fargo I learned about the Pucker Factor every day in that shit hole somewhere!!! Now our best drill was the 21ft rule. They put a guy 21ft away from us on the range (side of us). Our job was to draw a fire down range before that guy grabbed us by the shouders. None of us could beat him, period. Practice that with your friends it's an eye opener!!


Ha ha! No, I'm just getting ready for work. We go in at 05:00 when we're working days. And they've recently expanded the 21' rule all the way out to 28'. A lot of people overestimate their abilities. I'm glad to see someone on here keeping it realistic.

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## Pistol Pete (Jan 8, 2010)

goldwing said:


> I use my Glock to shoot precision. Works great! What is the problem with a Glock?
> 
> GW


You can keep them in the 10 ring at 50 yards with your Glock??????????????


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Pistol Pete said:


> You can keep them in the 10 ring at 50 yards with your Glock??????????????


What I did do was hit 10 cucumbers that were hung on spikes at 100 yards. I was shooting off of a bench and if memory serves I had a couple of rounds left when I shot the last one. This took place at my friend Steve's range which happened to be surrounded by acres of cucumbers. Gary Kassera was there with his new AR and he could not hit the cucumbers to save his life. I shot the cucumbers with the Glock to needle him.

GW


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I once cut a playing card with my 2010 M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" barrel. The card was placed into a cut made with a knife in a cardboard backing. The distance was either 9 or 12 feet (don't recall which), and this was in 2011 or 2012... again, I don't recall the year. I still have the card. My shooting buddy wanted to try something different.

Best shot I've ever made with a handgun? A hanging ram on a metallic target range from 200 meters (656 feet) from a rest with a Ruger Super Blackhawk with stock sights and handloads. Hit it on the second attempt.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

goldwing said:


> LOSTIN TEXAS "Do you shoot a single hole at say 30 feet? Bench? Long range?"
> 
> Why would you slight Glocks on your second post here? I didn't. I have hit cucumbers consistently off a bench at 100 yards with my old G17. Impressive. I would like to have seen that.
> 
> ...


It wasn't about you.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

SouthernBoy said:


> I once cut a playing card with my 2010 M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" barrel. The card was placed into a cut made with a knife in a cardboard backing. The distance was either 9 or 12 feet (don't recall which), and this was in 2011 or 2012... again, I don't recall the year. I still have the card. My shooting buddy wanted to try something different.
> 
> Best shot I've ever made with a handgun? A hanging ram on a metallic target range from 200 meters (656 feet) from a rest with a Ruger Super Blackhawk with stock sights and handloads. Hit it on the second attempt.


I'll readily admit, I can't shoot that good but I have seen people that can... The Super Blachawk reminded me of one.
Me and one other guy had the range to ourselves. I was shooting rifle handloads off the bench.
He was standing and shooting rams at 200 yd with a Super Blackhawk, open sights. He must have fired 80 rounds or so before he missed one, ONE!
The guy was devastated that he missed, said he'd never win shooting that bad.
Go Figure.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SamBond said:


> I'll readily admit, I can't shoot that good but I have seen people that can... The Super Blachawk reminded me of one.
> Me and one other guy had the range to ourselves. I was shooting rifle handloads off the bench.
> He was standing and shooting rams at 200 yd with a Super Blackhawk, open sights. He must have fired 80 rounds or so before he missed one, ONE!
> The guy was devastated that he missed, said he'd never win shooting that bad.
> Go Figure.


That 200 meter shot I made with my Super Blackhawk was in 1984, as I recall. The Stainless Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum with a 5 1/2" barrel I bought in the mid 80's is my most accurate revolver. Back then I installed Ruger's hunting sights for that gun and an Omark hammer spring, plus did a little smoothing out of the trigger. Added Pachmayr grips to finish it off. Best group at a hunting distance of 50 yards I ever managed from a rest was 2 1/2" with that gun. Very accurate and very consistent. I still own it.

But for the past 20+ years, my interests have shifted completely to defensive shooting. That's a whole different animal. Tack driving accuracy is not the goal. Speed and consistency take center stage with this type of shooting. It's a different thrust but one which is absolutely essential to those who carry and may one day have to depend upon their sidearm.


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## Expatriate (Nov 11, 2018)

This is a sore subject with me. 

I've noticed that those who poo-poo those of us who enjoy shooting for groups at 25yds and instead extoll the virtues of "combat accuracy" usually are not capable of impressive groups when bench resting pistols at 25yds.

When I buy a new pistol, I enjoy seeing how tight of a group I can get at 25yds to benchmark how accurate the pistol is. The more accurate it is at 25yds, the more effective it will be when in my hands.

That being said, I fully understand and appreciate the reasoning of combat drills. They utilize a whole different set of muscle groups and hand and eye coordination. They also are the skills that you will fall back on if ever faced with a self-defense shooting.

I shoot indoor GSSF matches which are timed and from distances of 5yds to 25yds. I can shoot the occasional 1.5" group at 25yds with my match pistol; a Glock G35 that is all stock except for the Dawson FO front sight. But when in a match and I have to fire offhand, ten rounds in ten seconds at 25yds, I have yet to keep all ten rounds in the 8" circle. Out of 500 possible points, my best has been 497. Close but no cigar.

Now if that same pistol was only capable of 6" groups at 25yds, then my chances of hitting ten rounds inside of an 8" circle offhand at 25yds are greatly diminished. That's why I test my self-defense and match pistols at 25yds.

That being said, the most effective pistol I own at ringing steel quickly and efficiently is a Taurus G2c. It points extremely naturally for me and I rarely use the sights. Still, it barely gets 5" groups at 25yds. It's not my EDC as a result.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Expatriate said:


> This is a sore subject with me.
> 
> I've noticed that those who poo-poo those of us who enjoy shooting for groups at 25yds and instead extoll the virtues of "combat accuracy" usually are not capable of impressive groups when bench resting pistols at 25yds.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with striving for pinpoint accuracy with a handgun, nothing at all. I just see the two disciplines in discussion, combat accuracy vs target (pinpoint) shooting as two different animals. The best of both worlds would be to excel in both of these disciplines. But there is a bit of a danger with this. Muscle memory along with essential training memory. That which one drills into their core is most likely that which they will call upon naturally when the need arises.

The other day I was watching a video of a man going through some training techniques with a new pistol review. He would draw his gun, press out to full extension, and then pause for perhaps over a second before firing the gun. I couldn't help but think what he would do if he was being attacked and if his target was just going to stand there and get shot. My take is that once you have taken the decision to get your gun into the fight, you must get it out quickly and as soon as humanly possible, start getting shots off. No waiting for that perfect sight picture. In fact, more than likely in such a situation, your sights are not even going to be a factor because you probably are not going to have the luxury of time on your side. If you do, great but you should not train for this.


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## crewchief (Jul 25, 2018)

Talk about our targets shooting back..... About an hour ago at the indoor range on my third shot from my glock 19 the bullet came back, hit me on the right side. I saw it coming and couldnt get out of the way it happened sooooo fast!!! It didn't hurt but scared me and the guy next to me bad. He looked at me and said OMG you're shot. They closed two lanes down and moved us down. Said bullet build up caused problem.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

crewchief said:


> Talk about our targets shooting back..... About an hour ago at the indoor range on my third shot from my glock 19 the bullet came back, hit me on the right side. I saw it coming and couldnt get out of the way it happened sooooo fast!!! It didn't hurt but scared me and the guy next to me bad. He looked at me and said OMG you're shot. They closed two lanes down and moved us down. Said bullet build up caused problem.


Good Lord Almighty! You should have bought a Lotto ticket, on your way home.


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## Pistol Pete (Jan 8, 2010)

goldwing said:


> What I did do was hit 10 cucumbers that were hung on spikes at 100 yards. I was shooting off of a bench and if memory serves I had a couple of rounds left when I shot the last one. This took place at my friend Steve's range which happened to be surrounded by acres of cucumbers. Gary Kassera was there with his new AR and he could not hit the cucumbers to save his life. I shot the cucumbers with the Glock to needle him.
> 
> GW


Proves the gun can do it. Can you shoot standing on your hind feet, one hand and keep them in the 10 ring at 50 yards. Can you keep them in the 10 ring , timed and rapid fire , one hand at 25 yards. This is precision shooting, conventional pistol. The Glock is an accurate pistol but extremely hard to shoot accurately. Sand bags prove the gun and the ammo, not whether you can shoot. We do want to know that a gun shoots where it's pointed. Army 1911 gun is supposed to hold a 4" group at 50 yards. Pretty accurate but not accurate enough to shoot precision pistol.


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## crewchief (Jul 25, 2018)

I've heard about this happening but never really been there when it's happened!!! It was all over the 12 lanes and I had folks saying holly shit is this for real? The guy next to me saw it bounce off me and hit the floor. The range had just opened and no casings were anywhere on floor. My three casings were there and the spent bullet. Bullet was hot as hell still from going down the tube of my glock19.


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