# Whats wrong with .40S&W?



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

I've seen a few posts mentioning a general disdain for .40 cal? Shipwreck is one who has mentioned it. Any particular reason why folks? My wife has her P345 but I was looking toward something a little lighter.


----------



## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

rahlquist said:


> I've seen a few posts mentioning a general disdain for .40 cal? Shipwreck is one who has mentioned it. Any particular reason why folks? My wife has her P345 but I was looking toward something a little lighter.


Some people think the recoil of the 40SW is harsh. They should try those .380 or 9mm plastic pocket pistols.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

.40SW recoil is too much for a round that isn't a true .45

Not only that, but you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist. You have 9mm which travels at upwards of 1200fps. Then you have .45 which is around 850fps. The .40 sits between this but doesn't have the size of the .45 or the velocity of the 9mm. So it's IMO a waste.

Also, you have a number of reported kabooms with .40 chambered pistols. The round is packed hot so that there is a chance for it to blow up in the chamber. Also, the .40 was evolved from the 10mm which is a very high powered round. The 10mm was too much to handle so the .40 was basically a slimed down version of it that can fit into a gun that is the same size of a 9mm. The 10mm required a larger firearm.


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

Dredd said:


> You have 9mm which travels at upwards of 1200fps. Then you have .45 which is around 850fps. The .40 sits between this but doesn't have the size of the .45 or the velocity of the 9mm. So it's IMO a waste.


So youre saying if a person wants more stopping power than a 9mm then a .45acp is the next logical choice and ignore the .40S&W in your opinion?


----------



## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

rahlquist said:


> So youre saying if a person wants more stopping power than a 9mm then a .45acp is the next logical choice and ignore the .40S&W in your opinion?


I did, we got a 9mm for my wife and a 45 for me. I personally don't see any reason to consider 40cal. It DOES split the differences of 9 and 45 down the middle but why? Why do we need it to? I don't know.

I like that the 9mm is cheaper to shoot and a little easier to conceal, and I like the idea of defending my home with .45acp. The 45 is a blast at the range too but so expensive.


----------



## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

In my opinion the .40 is the best of the three.

You can use 1200 fps 155 grain rounds or 200 grain 950 fps rounds.

The .40 produces more energy than either 9MM or .45

You have to use +P+ 9 or 45 to come close.

The .40 is a modern round designed based on modern powders and bullets.

9MM and .45 are both 100 year old designs.

If you want .45 or 9MM performance just load .40 to a wimp or double wimp level. :mrgreen:

Bring on the torches. :anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol: 

:smt1099


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

TOF said:


> In my opinion the .40 is the best of the three.


Ok if thats the case whats you preferred gun for handling this modern ammo?


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Nothing wrong with .40, and it is certainly a useful round. It is more powerful than 9mm but fits in compact guns with a 9mm cycle length, which is something that can't be done with .45ACP. The allows smaller guns with smaller grips - easier to conceal and easier to use for smaller-handed shooters.

9mm is fine for defense, but some people prefer more horsepower. .40 is a logical chocie for them, especially if they want a 9mm-sized pistol rather than a .45-sized pistol. .40 has turned in _excellent_ results in both gelatin testing and actual shootings.

"Ka-Booms" have been an issue in only a very, very tiny minority of pistols.

It kicks more than 9mm, but isn't at all difficult to control by a shooter who knows how to manage a pistol, unless we're talking about miniature pocket pistols. I have attached a pic of me shooting a Glock 23 with full-charge .40 ammo, pistol in full recoil. Anyone who thinks .40 is horribly difficult to control in reasonably sized pistols needs to shoot more or get some training.


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

I like the 40. The 40 is more of a snap and the 45 is more of a push, is how I discribe their respective recoil. 9mm is the easiest of the applicable self defence rounds, but I get bored with it easily sometimes.  I can shoot the 40 pretty accurately, and at $4 less per box of WWB than 45, I can shoot it more.

I really like the 45, but haven't shot mine in about six months. At $31/ 100, I find myself going the 40 or 9mm route more often than not.


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

Spartan said:


> I like the 40. The 40 is more of a snap and the 45 is more of a push, is how I discribe their respective recoil. 9mm is the easiest of the applicable self defence rounds, but I get bored with it easily sometimes.  I can shoot the 40 pretty accurately, and at $4 less per box of WWB than 45, I can shoot it more.


You still swearing by your Steyr M40-A1?


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

rahlquist said:


> You still swearing by your Steyr M40-A1?


So far so good. I've shot 600 rounds though it and it hasn't given me any issues yet. I know it's not a ton of rounds by any means, but it's a good start. I am looking forward to shooting it more but I blew through my last 250 rounds of 40 through my USPc.

A couple of my better targets from this weekend, both from a standing position and non-supported:

1) From 7 yards. 3 mags/ 36 rounds...









2) From 50 feet. This was my best of the grouping from this distance. Less than 1"!!! I couldn't believe it. Not typical for me  . One of the other four targets on the page had a bullseye, too.









Next time I get some 40 ammo I will take the Steyr out again and try to duplicate the results. Here is a target I kept from 7 yards and a rest.









Don't get me wrong, the HK is definitely more sturdily built, but for under $400 the Steyr is almost half the price. The trap sights are way cool, too. Great gun for the price.


----------



## hawcer (Feb 22, 2008)

TOF said:


> In my opinion the .40 is the best of the three.
> 
> You can use 1200 fps 155 grain rounds or 200 grain 950 fps rounds.
> 
> ...


That's my thoughts on it too..

+1

Why try to push a 147gr through a 9mm for more stopping power or a light weight bullet through a 45acp designed for low pressure rounds,for higher velocity,when you can get it done with a 40S&W?


----------



## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Just Because......I like the .45ACP! It is a lot easier than I thought it would be to shoot and it makes BIG HOLES :supz: Never shot a .40 but I'm thinkin it ain't as bad as a .357....or am I wrong?????


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

The only "issue" I've noticed with the Steyr, is when I fill the mag to maximum capacity (12), the slide can be stubborn to load the first round. Not sure why, and it can be racked, it just takes more force than if the mag only had 11 rounds in it.

But, with my experiences with the gun, I'd put it in my nighstand for sure.


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

Spartan said:


> But, with my experiences with the gun, I'd put it in my nighstand for sure.


How about CCW?


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

gmaske said:


> Just Because......I like the .45ACP! It is a lot easier than I thought it would be to shoot and it makes BIG HOLES :supz: Never shot a .40 but I'm thinkin it ain't as bad as a .357....or am I wrong?????


The 357sig is a little firecracker and has quite a bit of snap, IMO. Much more than the 40. Admittedly, I've only shot two 357sig pistols, and they were both Glock 31s. My G31 is ported and helps a lot.


----------



## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

rahlquist said:


> Ok if thats the case whats you preferred gun for handling this modern ammo?


M&P40

2nd choice XD40

M&P fits my hand better

Some one mentioned the .357. I haven't used a .357 Sig but do have a GP100 4" .357 Mag.

The GP100 kicks much harder than the .40 if using full power loads.

:smt1099

:smt1099


----------



## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

I only chose to dump the 40, to eliminate one caliber. I've owned and Glock 23C, and a Kahr PM40. The 40 is a good round, butNASTY in the paocket-size Kahr. That said, I'm all 9mm and 45 ACP now ('cept for my Keltec).

Personally, for small guns, 9mm is plenty of power, and more controlable. In a full size frame, nobody has proven to me that there is ANYTHING better than a 45ACP. For accuracy, or stopping power.

I plink with my 22 Buckmark, and my two 9mms. Mine and Carla's. Cheaper.

I carry at LEAST the Kel Tec. (Pocket gun)
Most often, the 9mm XDSC. (IWB/OWB Shirt-Hem Concealed)
When possible, the XD45. (Jacket OWB Concealed)

I've yet to find ANY 1911 more accurate than my personal 4" XD45. Period.

JW


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

rahlquist said:


> How about CCW?


Sure.

Too bad you don't live closer to me or I'd let you shoot the hell out of mine to decide for yourself. It's not a very accessible gun, unfortunately. I took a shot in the dark with it after reading the trails-and-tribulations on Steyrclub.com. They come in 9mm and 357sig (though very rare in 357S) also.

If you have any more questions or want me to take some detailed photos of it together or apart, let me know.


----------



## mnhntr (Mar 23, 2008)

TOF said:


> In my opinion the .40 is the best of the three.
> 
> You can use 1200 fps 155 grain rounds or 200 grain 950 fps rounds.
> 
> ...


i can agree the 40 is the best of the 3 however i think the 10mm and the 357 sig are far superior calibers to all three. if i wanted the full power auto i would go 10mm and if i wanted to go lighter it would be the 357 sig. IMO the 9mm is a joke of a round for anything but plinking and paper punching. and the 45acp is a bit of the old school that has been outdated and upgraded but there are too many die hards for it to go away.


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

Spartan said:


> If you have any more questions or want me to take some detailed photos of it together or apart, let me know.


 How difficult is it to field strip and clean? Say compared to the p345 ruger ( video: http://video.google.com/url?docid=-...ndex=1&usg=AL29H20U9oi6bwOz9OTzh-RtS-myJO2kLQ )

I really like the look of that grip and it seems size comparable to the Beretta 92 which fits my hand better than my wifes p345.


----------



## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

Make sure you don't go by pictures as far as the grip is concerned. Pictures can be deceiving. It may look like it would feel one way but you get it in your hands and you don't like it at all. Have you held one? Just my .02

-Jeff-


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

Hang on a sec and I will get some pics and put a post together...


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

BeefyBeefo said:


> Make sure you don't go by pictures as far as the grip is concerned. Pictures can be deceiving. It may look like it would feel one way but you get it in your hands and you don't like it at all. Have you held one? Just my .02
> 
> -Jeff-


Absolutely Jeff, I wont buy one without holding at the very least or firing if I can. It's just the grip looks skinnier which I like!


----------



## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

rahlquist said:


> Absolutely Jeff, I wont buy one without holding at the very least or firing if I can. It's just the grip looks skinnier which I like!


Just making sure :smt023

-Jeff-:smt1099


----------



## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with the .40cal. If you can shoot .357's the .40 will be just fine for you. Go for it. :smt023


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

To take it apart is very similar to the 92FS.

The gun must be in the de-cock position or it won't dissemble. Simply push down on that little lock button and swing the little lever forward. The key is NOT required to take the gun apart. I put the key in the pictures to show how you can lock it a few pics below*.



















Once the slide is off, simply remove the spring and barrel. Done.










To put it back together, just put the slide back together, put the slide on the handle and pull it back. It will automatically re-lock the slide similar to a Glok.

*To completely lock the system, use the key to push in the button and turn it 90 deg CCW. Once locked, the slide will not move and the trigger cannot be pulled. Simply reverse the process to unlock it.










You mentioned the 92FS. Here is a side by side comparison of the two. Steyr is definitely smaller. It's got about a 4" barrel.










I handled a couple at shows, but bought it online witout having a chance to fire one.

Hope this helps.


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

Spartan said:


> To take it apart is very similar to the 92FS.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Oh my side! LOL

You sir rock! Thank you for going to all that effort for me, and I think you have sold me pending getting my hands on one.

The 92 I held recently had grips more along the lines of this
http://www.self-defender.net/weapons/beretta92.gif

That just looks perfect to me, no sharp or pointy edges too like the 92 has a few of, wearing my wifes p345 in its holster is a bit uncomfortable due to its size too. 









Thank you so much!


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

Sure, no problem. The link you posted didn't work, but I am thinking you're referring to the Vertec edition of the 92/ 96 which is definitely more 'edgy' than the regular 92, and meant to resemble a 1911 grip style... aaaaaaaaaaaaaand I just so happen to have one lying around ::mrgreen:










Kind of blurry, but the battery died after this shot so it's all I have for right now...










Glad to help. This is the type of stuff I wish was easier to come by when I am looking at buying something that's not readily available at a local store.

But, don't take my word for it, handle one and try to shoot one to make sure for yourself. :smt023


----------



## rahlquist (Nov 29, 2007)

Spartan said:


> Sure, no problem. The link you posted didn't work, but I am thinking you're referring to the Vertec edition of the 92/ 96 which is definitely more 'edgy' than the regular 92, and meant to resemble a 1911 grip style... aaaaaaaaaaaaaand I just so happen to have one lying around ::mrgreen:
> 
> Glad to help. This is the type of stuff I wish was easier to come by when I am looking at buying something that's not readily available at a local store.
> 
> But, don't take my word for it, handle one and try to shoot one to make sure for yourself. :smt023


Definitely going to try to get my hands on one unfortunately looks like most of the local dealers listed on the Steyr website are not where I'd prefer to shop but I did find one near my work I have been meaning to visit http://www.advout.com so now may be the time.

Thanks againQ


----------



## Don357 (Dec 4, 2007)

I had a Taurus Mil-Pro PT-140. It was a great CCW. Mine shot very good. Understand that I'm not the best shot in the world, but I could do 2 1/2 to 3 in 10 rd groups at 30ft on a good day 5 to 6 on a bad one. I loved the gun but I sold it to buy a rifle. I regret selling it too! It was easy to conceal and easy to shoot. That Taurus was a well made gun!


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

All this talk about the Steyr makes me want to go shooting with it. It's now next on the list.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

rahlquist said:


> So youre saying if a person wants more stopping power than a 9mm then a .45acp is the next logical choice and ignore the .40S&W in your opinion?


That's how I feel yes, but to state something on record I feel the 9mm with a quality JHP loading is fine. I'd put my life on my 9mm with Gold Dots or Federal HSTs.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

TOF said:


> In my opinion the .40 is the best of the three.
> 
> You can use 1200 fps 155 grain rounds or 200 grain 950 fps rounds.
> 
> ...


DoubleTap loads a 230gr .45 to do 1010fps. Federal HST .45 JHP expands to 1" in tests. So it's really not a contest IMO. Not to mention all the kabooms from .40 and it's something I don't like.


----------



## Patient_Zero (Mar 14, 2008)

Dredd said:


> .40SW recoil is too much for a round that isn't a true .45
> 
> Not only that, but you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist. You have 9mm which travels at upwards of 1200fps. Then you have .45 which is around 850fps. The .40 sits between this but doesn't have the size of the .45 or the velocity of the 9mm. So it's IMO a waste.
> 
> Also, you have a number of reported kabooms with .40 chambered pistols. The round is packed hot so that there is a chance for it to blow up in the chamber. Also, the .40 was evolved from the 10mm which is a very high powered round. The 10mm was too much to handle so the .40 was basically a slimed down version of it that can fit into a gun that is the same size of a 9mm. The 10mm required a larger firearm.


This is almost completely untrue.

The .40 recoil IS harsh, but there are worse calibers. I'm not sure where you came up with the information that the velocity was lower than a 9mm. I have a magazine in my gun right now that clocks in at 1325fps. 135gr. CorBon. Besides, it's performance is between a 9mm and a .45, how is that a bad thing?

While the .40 IS a very high pressure round, the KB's you mentioned tend to happen due to the casing not being fully supported at the base, it's not due solely to the pressure generated. If the case is fully supported, the chance of a KB is no worse than any other round. You can find pressures just as high with almost every caliber, just look on the box. It will say +P+.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

Patient_Zero said:


> This is almost completely untrue.
> 
> The .40 recoil IS harsh, but there are worse calibers. I'm not sure where you came up with the information that the velocity was lower than a 9mm. I have a magazine in my gun right now that clocks in at 1325fps. 135gr. CorBon. Besides, it's performance is between a 9mm and a .45, how is that a bad thing?
> 
> While the .40 IS a very high pressure round, the KB's you mentioned tend to happen due to the casing not being fully supported at the base, it's not due solely to the pressure generated. If the case is fully supported, the chance of a KB is no worse than any other round. You can find pressures just as high with almost every caliber, just look on the box. It will say +P+.


125fps from a 135gr bullet is not special to me. It's almost down to 9mm weights at that point.


----------



## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I have a few 40's and I like them a lot. Recoil is not bad and with a good hollow point you have a darn good carry round. I've had the SW40VE and still have a Para P16, Browning Pro 40, and just got a Taurus PT140 Pro. I've used the Smith as a carry pistol and now use the Para as CCW pistol. The PT140 is smaller then all of them and was bought for a summer CCW pistol.

I don't see any problem with a 40 recoil but I'm used to 45ACP o the 40 is a good bit less. In my Para the recoil to me is not much different than a 9mm. The Browning is a little more but I chalk that up to the lighter frame. 

I tell people often that want to move to a bigger load than a 9mm to try a 40 before running out and getting a 45 ACP. Don't get me wrong, a 45 1911 is still my drug of choice. I'm just saying that the 40 round has it's place. I've had several people that have shot one of my 40's like it better than a 45 when it come to making the move from a 9mm to a bigger load. They will like the lighter recoil over a 45 and after all it's what individual shooter is most comfortable with that makes for what's best. If someone isn't totally comfy with their pistol then that can lead to a dangerous situation for them.:smt023


----------



## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

*Caliber*

The .40 is a proven round and is used widely in law enforcement. The fact the some of the .45 worshippers resent it would not daunt me in the least.

I think placement and the ability to use the weapon effectively are the overriding factors. Those three calibers, 9mm, .40, and .45 are all going to do just about the same thing if you can shoot them accurately. So go with what you like and feel good with. I would feel comfortable with any of them.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

Teuthis said:


> The .40 is a proven round and is used widely in law enforcement. The fact the some of the .45 worshippers resent it would not daunt me in the least.
> 
> I think placement and the ability to use the weapon effectively are the overriding factors. Those three calibers, 9mm, .40, and .45 are all going to do just about the same thing if you can shoot them accurately. So go with what you like and feel good with. I would feel comfortable with any of them.


That's 100% true. Shot placement is key. I'm a fan of .45 though and always will be. I wouldn't feel outguned if I had a 9mm though. I just don't like .40 because 9mm works fine, and if I need more I'll go right to .45. It's just my choice.

didn't mean to sound hateful towards anyone who likes the .40 It's just IMO, a caliber that attempts to put a band aid on a spot that doesn't need it.


----------



## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

*.40 vs. .45*

Not only that, but you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist. You have 9mm which travels at upwards of 1200fps. Then you have .45 which is around 850fps. The .40 sits between this but doesn't have the size of the .45 or the velocity of the 9mm. So it's IMO a waste.

Remember if penetration is a desired trait, .40 is far superior (at least in my experience) than the .45, while also carring more knockdown energy than the 9mm...I can fire my p226 .40 faster and more accurate than I can a 1911 in .45, and feel much more confident with the stopping power of the .40 then I do with a 9mm...Granted I am fairly new to shooting handguns and have a lot to learn, anyone want to set me straight, please feel free.


----------



## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

Dredd said:


> .40SW recoil is too much for a round that isn't a true .45
> 
> Not only that, but you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist. You have 9mm which travels at upwards of 1200fps. Then you have .45 which is around 850fps. The .40 sits between this but doesn't have the size of the .45 or the velocity of the 9mm. So it's IMO a waste.
> 
> Also, you have a number of reported kabooms with .40 chambered pistols. The round is packed hot so that there is a chance for it to blow up in the chamber. Also, the .40 was evolved from the 10mm which is a very high powered round. The 10mm was too much to handle so the .40 was basically a slimed down version of it that can fit into a gun that is the same size of a 9mm. The 10mm required a larger firearm.


Remember if penetration is a desired trait, .40 is far superior (at least in my experience) than the .45, while also carring more knockdown energy than the 9mm...I can fire my p226 .40 faster and more accurate than I can a 1911 in .45, and feel much more confident with the stopping power of the .40 then I do with a 9mm...Granted I am fairly new to shooting handguns and have a lot to learn, anyone want to set me straight, please feel free.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

SigShooter127 said:


> Remember if penetration is a desired trait, .40 is far superior (at least in my experience) than the .45, while also carring more knockdown energy than the 9mm...I can fire my p226 .40 faster and more accurate than I can a 1911 in .45, and feel much more confident with the stopping power of the .40 then I do with a 9mm...Granted I am fairly new to shooting handguns and have a lot to learn, anyone want to set me straight, please feel free.


Confidence is a key factor to be sure. I'd wager your Sig is marginally more comfortable for you to shoot than a 1911 which is why the preference.


----------



## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

themayer78 said:


> I like that the 9mm is cheaper to shoot and a little easier to conceal, and I like the idea of defending my home with .45acp. The 45 is a blast at the range too but so expensive.


Well, 9mm's getting expensive too. I do most of my plinking with a .22 Buckmark, and only run about 50-65 rounds through my 9mm pistol per range trip (50 FMJ into a B-27 or something similar, 15 of my Hydra-Shoks into a standard target to rotate stock and prove they still work, and any other shooting I do is .22). If I had a .45 I'd probably treat it similarly to my 9mm with JHPs; one, maybe two clips to maintain proficiency, and that's it.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

Liko81 said:


> Well, 9mm's getting expensive too. I do most of my plinking with a .22 Buckmark, and only run about 50-65 rounds through my 9mm pistol per range trip (50 FMJ into a B-27 or something similar, 15 of my Hydra-Shoks into a standard target to rotate stock and prove they still work, and any other shooting I do is .22). If I had a .45 I'd probably treat it similarly to my 9mm with JHPs; one, maybe two clips to maintain proficiency, and that's it.


I shoot 100 rounds of FMJ in my .45 and 9mm each trip. I usually shoot slow, deliberate, aimed, ad controlled shots. I try to keep trigger control in mind and point of aim/sight picture control all the time. Then I load up 1 mag of my carry/defense ammo in each of my guns and practice with it to be sure they function properly etc. I would normally practice double taps for the first few rounds, then controlled and aimed shots afterwards.


----------

