# Water heater question.........



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Our 18 yr. old water heater needs to be replaced. It's a 40 gal. natural gas type. Anyways, it went out last night and I could not get the pilot light re-lit after several tries.

My wife and I went to both Home Depot and Lowe's today. Got a quote from HD for an all-inclusive price of $1107.00. That includes the water heater, all needed supplies, such as gas and water lines, new expansion tank, labor, tax, permit, and of course, labor and removal / disposal of old tank.

I had a local plumbing company drop by today for an in-home estimate. It was over $1800.00. It too, was an all inclusive price.

*Note:* I mistakenly thought that we had a 50 gal. tank. It wasn't until the guy dropped by our home to give the estimate, that he noticed we had a 40 gal. tank. So.....that will make out HD estimate bit cheaper.

My question is, what are the better brands of tanks to look for? The guy that dropped by the house, also told me that the water heaters are almost identical in build quality, and the pricier ones are that way, cause you are paying extra for the longer warranty. He said to stick to one with a 6 yr. warranty, vs. one with 12 yrs. or more. Same water heaters, just different warranties, according to him. He said that he's been installing water heaters for over 30 yrs.

I do want one with the new electronic ignition system. They all seem to come with it anymore. Other than that, I don't want any bells or whistles.

Any and all tips, advice, or recommendations will be greatly appreciated.


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## Tip (Aug 22, 2012)

Consider replacing it with a tankless if you can afford the steep initial cost. Measure the high price against the fuel savings over the next few years to see the balance point. Benefits = unlimited hot water, far longer life, far less fuel usage; Cons = higher initial cost.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Tip said:


> Consider replacing it with a tankless if you can afford the steep initial cost. Measure the high price against the fuel savings over the next few years to see the balance point. Benefits = unlimited hot water, far longer life, far less fuel usage; Cons = higher initial cost.


Naw.....at this point in time, I would rather stay with a conventional water heater. There's only me and my wife in the home. I'm not sure just how much longer we'll be in this house, but I don't want to drop a bundle of money right now into a tank-less system.

*Interesting read:* http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Usually the cause of not keeping the pilot light lit is the inexpensive thermocouple unit.

Pilot won't stay lit... Loose or faulty thermocouple. Sold at hardware stores, Home Depot, etc. If you are handy you can replace it yourself.. 
No Hot Water - How to Replace a Thermocouple - YouTube

If you do purchase a new one and as you stated you want to keep the cost down just get a basic 40 gallon water heater. 
GE 40 gal. Tall 6 Year 36,000 BTU Natural Gas Water Heater-GG40T06AVG01 at The Home Depot


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Yeah, your problem sounds like a bad thermocouple. Why not have a plumber come and fix that rather than spending a bunch of money on a heater that you may not yet need. Buying new wouldn't be my first choice.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The one thing to be wary of is the fact that it is an 18 year old water heater. Remove the pilot light access panel, get down close with a flashlight, and check the area under the tank for rust, leaks, or drips. If you see any of this, it's not a bad idea to replace the unit. One of my neighbors, when two days into his week-long vacation, had his tank rupture and for five days, water ran into his finished basement. Fortunately for him, his tank was located close to his sump pump and that's where nearly all of the water managed to drain into.

It was the original tank installed by the builder's subcontractor. Hearing this, the following year, I had mine replaced to avoid anything like this. Mine is a 75 gallon unit (spec'd for the house), and is a top tier piece of equipment. It's a Bradford White high efficiency unit and I have been very pleased with it. I did note that my gas bill dropped about a third (summer time use) after this unit was installed.

BTW, you should drain about 1/3 of your tank once or twice a year, depending upon the mineral content of your water supply. This will extend the life of the tank and the sacrificial anode.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for the tips and advice. I did think about replacing the thermo-couple, but that won't change the age of the heater itself. I just don't want to take a chance and try to get a couple of more years out of it, and then wake up some day to a flooded garage. 

It's been a great heater so far, and it's been running fine since the guy re-lit it. It should get us thru the weekend. We are going to go back to Lowe's and Home Depot either today or tomorrow. My wife recalls seeing a 40 gal. clearance heater at Lowe's. 

Any store that installs a new heater, wants to also install all new gas and water lines. They also want to install a new safety (expansion) tank. 

The prices on water heaters now have pretty much tripled in price or more. The one we have now, was $149.00 back in Sept. of 1995. It's a 6-yr. warranty model. 

I'm thinking that we'll stay with a 6-yr. warranty model, and I'll make it a point to drain it once a year. The service guy that came out to give us an estimate, got it re-lit, and as it was heating up, he could hear the noise that it makes while doing so. He said that it was calcium build-up (scale) and that's why it sounds like an old-style coffee pot that you used to put on a stove and it would make that percolating sound. 

So far, we've looked at GE and Whirlpool brands. The local ACE Hardware store sells Reliance, our current brand of heater. In fact we bought our current one from them way back. 

In closing, I definitely want to get a new heater. For peace-of-mind as well as anything. I've been told that water heaters should be replaced at about the 12 yr. old period.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*paratrooper*, I have some funny water-heater information for you.

We heat our water with electricity. It's a very expensive way to get hot water, but it's all that's available to us, here on this little island.
But there is a good side to all this: Our water heater never fails without giving us lots of notice first.

Electric heaters have two tank-heating coils within them. There's one near the top of the tank, and one almost at the bottom. Both are easily replaced-they screw in from outside.
The uppermost coil never gives us trouble. It lasts forever. But the bottom coil needs to be replaced on a three-year cycle (approximately).

Our water contains a lot of dissolved manganese. In the water heater, the manganese precipitates out as an insoluable solid: manganese dioxide. Eventually the precipitated manganese dioxide fills the bottom of the tank, and then it covers-and burns out-the lower heating coil.
When that happens, the water heater still works, but the hot water in it will no longer last through a normal morning shower. That's our signal that the collection of manganese dioxide has risen to the point of burning out the lower coil.

So we drain the tank, unscrew and remove the lower heating coil, and vacuum-out the accumulated manganese dioxide. Then we screw in a new heating coil, and everything goes back to normal for about three years.
Thus we are forced to drain, examine, and service the water heater every three years, whether we want to or not. Further, the thick layer of accumulated manganese dioxide seems to protect the bottom of the heater tank, so it hardly ever needs replacement. The previous water heater was at least 20 years old. Our present house unit is 10 and counting, and the one in the dance studio is 16.

Life is a long series of mixed blessings.


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## hammer1 (Oct 7, 2013)

GE tanks from HD are not good tanks, ive put them in as a customer provided tank, and had them leak, wont light or stay light. All tanks now are enclosed combustion chamber, the main reason the govt efficiency requirements. Lochinvar, bradford white, and a.o. smith are all good tanks, and are what we are required to put in by company policy. 18 years from a tank is damn good, its probably a third of the way full of sediment and isnt worth repairing. Most tanks now are 6 year tanks.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hammer1 said:


> GE tanks from HD are not good tanks, ive put them in as a customer provided tank, and had them leak, wont light or stay light. All tanks now are enclosed combustion chamber, the main reason the govt efficiency requirements. Lochinvar, bradford white, and a.o. smith are all good tanks, and are what we are required to put in by company policy. 18 years from a tank is damn good, its probably a third of the way full of sediment and isnt worth repairing. Most tanks now are 6 year tanks.


Interesting info. on brands of tanks. So far, I haven't run into the brands you mentioned. I am familiar with Bradford White, as it was the original tank that was in our house when we bought it back in 1988. Back then, it was set-up for propane. We got natural gas in 1996, and switched at that time. City code would not allow converting a tank from propane to natural gas.

It looks as if I'm going to need to investigate a little further to get a better brand. The guy that did come out to give me an in-home quote, did say that they only use Bradford White, but his quote was over $1800.00, all inclusive. That was about $600.00 more than Home Depot quoted me for a 12 yr. GE model, fully installed.

All the tanks we are seeing are either 6, 9 or 12 yr. warranty.

Crap.....this is turning into a lot more work than should be necessary. BTW, where do they get off charging the labor rates that they do?


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## hammer1 (Oct 7, 2013)

Paratrooper, I dont know where you are, here in western NY, the company I work for, we do 40 gal, nat gas, installed, old tank taken with us, is around 900 bucks. Thats a bradford white tank, depending on the township, we are required to install a dual check valve, and expansion tank. Thats another 400 bucks, most townships here doont need a permit for a simple tank replace. Tankless systems are permitted and inspected. We dont mess around with 6,9 and 12 year warranty, we only do 6 year. The multiple warranties cause problems, with keeping track. Once you get past a year with the tank , the manufacturers pro rate the repairs


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hammer1 said:


> Paratrooper, I dont know where you are, here in western NY, the company I work for, we do 40 gal, nat gas, installed, old tank taken with us, is around 900 bucks. Thats a bradford white tank, depending on the township, we are required to install a dual check valve, and expansion tank. Thats another 400 bucks, most townships here doont need a permit for a simple tank replace. Tankless systems are permitted and inspected.


Here in AZ., city code requires a Permit ($60.00), but yet the county doesn't. We have an expansion tank on our current water heater. But, we are being told, that if it's over 5 yrs. old, we have to get a new one. They sell for about $40.00 or so in the stores. But, if they supply one when the heater is installed, the price is about $150.00. And, they will not use any customer supplied parts what so ever.

Lowe's, Home Depot or a private plumbing company, you have to use their parts, as they will not warranty any consumer supplied parts. I can understand that to a degree. But.....it takes about two hours or so to remove and completely install a new water heater. Where are they coming up with the labor charge of well over $600.00 or so?

The plumber that came out to our home for the in-home quote, quoted me a little over $1800.00 for a complete install. That was for a Bradford White tank. He was a nice guy and all that, re-lit the heater and gave me a heavy-duty full-port brass, ball drain valve for free. He said that he understood my concern in regards to the price quote, but said that he's just a tech and doesn't set prices.

I'm just shocked at the labor rates I'm getting. I actually set in place and hooked up our existing tank back in 1996. When the city inspector came out to check out our furnace conversion from propane to natural gas, he looked over the tank and signed off on it. But, I'm older now and not quite as confident as I used to be, when it comes to natural gas and plumbing.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Life is good. Went water heater shopping again today and found a RHEEM 40 gal. natural gas model at Home Depot for $337.00. Only $3.00 more than a GE model of same size / specs. 

Then we went to a True Value Hardware Store and spoke to a guy in their plumbing dept. Come to find out, he's been installing water heaters for over 35 yrs. He installs them on the side with the store's blessing. 

He charges $35.00 per hour, + parts needed. He said that he doesn't care where we buy the tank or parts. 

So, I'll return to HD and buy the RHEEM tank, as well as a new safety tank. Also, going have him replace the copper flex cold and hot water lines with the new flexible stainless-steel wire mesh lines. He will also remove the old gate valve for the incoming cold water, and sweat on a new full port brass ball valve. 

I told him that I would remove the old tank prior to him showing up, thus saving him a lot of work. He was okay with that. 

So, now I feel as if I have costs under control. I went from an easy $1200.00+ install, to approx. a $500.00 install, plus an hour or so of labor. 

So far, our existing tank has been staying lit and working fine. I'm sure that it will continue to do so until sometime later next week, when we decide on a day and time for him to come out.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Consumer reports states,

Most storage-tank water heaters look alike on the outside. But sawing open a cross-section of gas and electric storage-tank models in our lab confirmed that paying a little more typically buys a better water heater. Those with longer warranties tended to have larger heating elements, thicker insulation, and thicker or longer corrosion-fighting metal anodes.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

What I've been hearing over and over from those in the business, is that if you do only one thing to prolong the life of a water heater, is to drain it every year preferably. Every other year at most. 

I was remiss in doing this with our current heater. It did it a couple of times, but it was years apart when I did it. It still lasted 18 yrs., and I have a feeling, it would be good for a few more, but I'm not going to chance it. It was rated as a 6 yr. warranty model. They all come with either a 6, 9, or 12 yr. warranty. 

One thing that I do know, is that I'm learning a lot more about water heaters than I would have ever imagined......or wanted.


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## hammer1 (Oct 7, 2013)

Excellent, glad you got it squared away, we are the plumbing contractor for target stores, they require rheem tanks. Didnt know home depot carried them. Up here, rheem ruud is kinda rare. Something else to consider, check your water pressure, NY state code is between 40 and 80 PSI incoming pressure, over 100PSI, and the tank T&P valve can start leaking. We have townships that water pressure can get to over 120. After heating the water, a leaking valve is the result. Pressure reducing valve is then required.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hammer1 said:


> Excellent, glad you got it squared away, we are the plumbing contractor for target stores, they require rheem tanks. Didnt know home depot carried them. Up here, rheem ruud is kinda rare. Something else to consider, check your water pressure, NY state code is between 40 and 80 PSI incoming pressure, over 100PSI, and the tank T&P valve can start leaking. We have townships that water pressure can get to over 120. After heating the water, a leaking valve is the result. Pressure reducing valve is then required.


Our water pressure here is lousy. It's like about 42 psi or so.

We went to Home Depot and bought our water heater. It's a RHEEM as I mentioned, and we got 10% off the price because I'm a veteran. And, we took Home Depot up on a credit card offer. If you apply for one and get approved, you get $25.00 worth of free merchandise. So, that paid for our new flex water lines and a good part of our new safety tank.

All in all, we did very well shopping at HD. To make matters even better, I charged it all on my credit card with 0% interest for 15 months.

One of the HD employees said that they are phasing out GE water heaters and will stock RHEEM. The RHEEM we bought, was about 15 ft. up on a shelf. There wasn't even a price on it, as HD wanted to deplete their GE stock before putting RHEEM down on the floor. It was kind of funny as the sales guy really didn't want us to buy the RHEEM. He tried his best to sell us a GE. It didn't work out though.


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

If you have an old gate valve for a shut-off at the water heater, it is a good idea to replace it with a ball valve while doing the heater.........just saying.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

bigjohn56 said:


> If you have an old gate valve for a shut-off at the water heater, it is a good idea to replace it with a ball valve while doing the heater.........just saying.


Yes......that is going to happen for sure. Also going to use one for the drain valve in the tank.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I got my new water heated installed today. For the most part, all went well. One of the water supply hoses I bought was bad and had to be replaced. Then, the flu stack wasn't quite right and we had to go run and get a new one. 

But, other than that, it went well. The plumber removed the old gate valve from the cold water supply line and installed a new full-port ball valve. Same for the tank drain. All new stainless-steel wire mesh flex water lines too. 

The RHEEM water heater has an electronic ignition system. No more matches or lighters and trying to find the thermo-couple. A little red light flashes as long as the system is lit and functioning properly. 

Everything incl. new water tank, expansion tank, a few new parts, and labor, still under $550.00

Sure beats the Hell out of Home Depot's estimate of $1200.00, or a local plumbing company's estimate of $1800.00


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Good for you!
My only question: Will the electronic ignition system still function during an electric-power-out?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Good for you!
> My only question: Will the electronic ignition system still function during an electric-power-out?


I might have misstated how the system functions. I'm not a plumber, so I think I need to better describe how it works. There's a button that you depress that creates a spark. Once it's lit, a red light flashes on and off, about once every 2-3 seconds. The light functions as long as the system is lit and operating.

There's no 110v plug or anything like that, that plugs into a wall socket. It was described to me as an electronic ignition system. There are some electrical wires, but as I mentioned, no 110 v. plug. :smt017

What I do know, is that it's a big improvement over the tank that was removed. I hated trying to re-light a pilot light via a thermo-couple.

But.....to answer your question, yes it will still function during a power outage.


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## hammer1 (Oct 7, 2013)

Its peizo electric ignition, you still have a thermo couple , and a standing pilot. It lights like the grill igniter on a home grill. You dont open the bottom of the new tank and use a match to light the pilot. Its a bit more energy efficient, and safer. The blinking led tells you the tank status and can be used as a diagnostic tool if there are issues with the tank. Glad to hear everything worked out.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Ah... Got it.

The igniter is a spark generated by pressing a button to bend a crystal, making "instant electricity."
The little blinking red light is powered by either a constantly-charging battery or a constantly-charging capacitor, fed by either line voltage (while the juice is on) or by some form of heat-generated electricity.

Thanks!


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm very anxious to hear the results of the autopsy ,, on the old water heater. 
Be sure to wear respirator , ear n eye protection when cutting open the old tank.
Probably best , it be done outside with proper ventilation.


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## iGuy (Feb 12, 2014)

Darn, I missed this... I would have mentioned a Crown Mega-stor indirect heater. Fantastic. My cousin is a commercial plumber, and installed mine.... If anyone else has the need. Check these out...


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> I'm very anxious to hear the results of the autopsy ,, on the old water heater.
> Be sure to wear respirator , ear n eye protection when cutting open the old tank.
> Probably best , it be done outside with proper ventilation.


Ummmm........I never said that I was going to cut open the old tank. Way too much work and I really don't need to know what it looks like inside.

We ended up taking it to the local landfill yesterday. Cost us $10.00 to drop it off. Funny thing though. After I dropped it off, the bulldozer operator came over in his dozer and cut it in half with the blade. I was watching him do this in my rear-view mirror as we were driving off in our pick-up.

So, in essence, the tank did get cut open, but it wasn't due to me, and I wasn't able to check out the insides of it.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Ummmm........I never said that I was going to cut open the old tank. Way too much work and I really don't need to know what it looks like inside.
> 
> We ended up taking it to the local landfill yesterday. Cost us $10.00 to drop it off. Funny thing though. After I dropped it off, the bulldozer operator came over in his dozer and cut it in half with the blade. I was watching him do this in my rear-view mirror as we were driving off in our pick-up.
> 
> So, in essence, the tank did get cut open, but it wasn't due to me, and I wasn't able to check out the insides of it.


Yea, I know ,
you never said anything about opening the tank.
I was just thinking you might have gotten a little more into it , with your investigative nature, lol. 
Sounds like you made a great deal.


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## hammer1 (Oct 7, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ah... Got it.
> 
> The igniter is a spark generated by pressing a button to bend a crystal, making "instant electricity."
> The little blinking red light is powered by either a constantly-charging battery or a constantly-charging capacitor, fed by either line voltage (while the juice is on) or by some form of heat-generated electricity.
> ...


Exactly steve, your thermocouple produces a few volt of electricity by being heated by the pilot light. Keeps the whole thing running. No electricity needed. The only time you need a outside electric source for a hot water tank is a electric( obviously), or a power vent, which has a blower to force out the exhaust from combustion.


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## hammer1 (Oct 7, 2013)

Well, paratrooper, we get 30 bucks a tank at the scrap yard


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

hammer1 said:


> Well, paratrooper, we get 30 bucks a tank at the scrap yard


30$ scrap value?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hammer1 said:


> Well, paratrooper, we get 30 bucks a tank at the scrap yard


I was kind of thinking about calling a scrap yard, but I wasn't familiar with any in our area. Matter-of-fact, the last time I dealt with a scrap yard, the owner and I got into a shouting match in regards to the quality of service he was providing, or lack of, actually.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> I was kind of thinking about calling a scrap yard, but I wasn't familiar with any in our area. Matter-of-fact, the last time I dealt with a scrap yard, the owner and I got into a shouting match in regards to the quality of service he was providing, or lack of, actually.


30 bucks, very unlikely. The metal of any value on the water heater would have had to be separated from the rest of the unit.
To much of a pain for your valuable time. 
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see 30 $ worth of scrap metal on an 18 year old water heater,lol.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Paratrooper

About the time you were inquiring about water heaters, I suggested to my wife we should change our 9 year water heater , being that it was 12 years old.
But no , let's wait til football Sunday for it to shit the bed.

Called Home Depot, back n running. You don't realize how much ,
you can miss the
"flushing of the toilet"
Turned off the main valve because I have a drop ceiling and finally got tired of climbing over crap an getting fiber dropping in my face from the ceiling tiles . I was all done!!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Surprised to see this thread back alive. Anyways, this summer while at my dad's place, his water heater was showing signs of old age. It was at least 12 yrs. old from what I could determine.

Went to the local Home Depot where he lives and arranged for them to install the same brand / model of heater we bought. Contractors installed new ball shut-off valve, new cold / hot lines and made some repairs to the chimney where the exhaust stack ducted into. 

Install went well and also discovered his water pressure was almost 95 psi. Had them install a water pressure reduction valve while they were there. Max. pressure according to them should be no more than 60-65 psi. 

When we go back up next Spring for a visit, I plan to have his natural gas furnace replaced with a new one. The present one was installed when the house was built in 1975. It still works "okay", but it too, is showing it's age, and I don't want it going out on him unexpectedly. A new, current, hi-efficiency one, will run about $4K.


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