# Doctors vs. Guns



## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

*Doctors:*

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000. 
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000. 
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.​
Now think about this:

*Guns:*

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million..) 
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500. 
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI​
*STATISTICALLY:*

Doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. 
"Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

FACT:

NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Tell that to a liberal and watch the blank look you get.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I think that doctors should be licensed and regulated!

Oh, wait a minute -- they already are!


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## hawcer (Feb 22, 2008)

Great comparison! I guess that's where "Practicing" medicine ,are the key words....

BTW ,Accident isn't the same thing as Negligent in my book!


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Baldy said:


> Tell that to a liberal and watch the blank look you get.


Nawww... They would just start a bill for an "Assault Doctors" ban.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

submoa said:


> Nawww... They would just start a bill for an "Assault Doctors" ban.


Wouldn't that outlaw dentists?


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Wouldn't that outlaw dentists?


Nope, Just get them hired as interogaters for the CIA.:smt033


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## James NM (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm sure you noticed that stats on lawyer malpractice were purposely omitted. Why? Out of concern for public safety.

It was feared that the information on lawyer malfeasance would cause panic and mass hysteria, causing people to seek medical attention.


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## Fred40 (Jan 7, 2008)

Well not to be a stick in the mud.......but let's think about this.

Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

Doctors see a lot of really sick and really injured people......so we would really have to define ACCIDENTAL in this case.

Also, what about people being killed by guns ON PURPOSE?

I don't hear of many Doctors killing people intentionally.....unless you count Dr. Kevorkian (which I wouldn't count.....I agreed with him.....in principle if not action). 

Also, how many people come in contact with a gun everyday.....vs. how many people does a Doctor see? 

Lastly: It is clear this information did NOT come from FBI statistics. In fact no one seems to know where these stats did come from........they hold no weight.....none.


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

This very offensive thread/post is like the bad penny that just keeps showing up and won't go away and die the natural death it should.

It's not funny to those of us who dedicated our lives to caring for patients and the "BS" figures are just that. Here's the best figures available -

The IOM's release of To Err is Human brought medical errors and patient safety the attention it has long needed but never had. The information presented in the report is not new. Indeed, many studies, some as early as the 1960s, showed that patients were frequently injured by the same medical care that was intended to help them (Schimmel, 1964). While evidence of medical error has existed for some time, the report succeeded in capturing the public's attention by revealing the magnitude of this pervasive problem and presenting it in a uniquely compelling fashion. The IOM estimates that medical errors cause between 44,000 and 98,000 deaths annually in the United States.

This is the closest thing I could find on Health and Human services

*The IOM's release of To Err is Human brought medical errors and patient safety the attention it has long needed but never had. The information presented in the report is not new. Indeed, many studies, some as early as the 1960s, showed that patients were frequently injured by the same medical care that was intended to help them (Schimmel, 1964). While evidence of medical error has existed for some time, the report succeeded in capturing the public's attention by revealing the magnitude of this pervasive problem and presenting it in a uniquely compelling fashion. The IOM estimates that medical errors cause between 44,000 and 98,000 deaths annually in the United States.*

Note the medical errors does not attribute all to physicians but include all from physicians to hospital personnel, pharmacists, nurses & aids and all involved in health care.

Note also the wide spread of estimated numbers - 100% apart - ?credibility??

It is my opinion that whenever this post comes up, that thread should be locked and deleted. It's not cute and has no place here!!

These forums are about exchanging information about the guns we love and posting such "BS" drivel offends our doctor members needlessly. If you have a grudge against physicians, take it to the appropriate venue!!!!

:buttkick:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

To *Fred40* and *OJ*:

I guess you two don't understand metaphor and irony.
The point of *submoa*'s post is that, just as doctors aren't really bad, neither are guns.
Nobody's going to "register" doctors because of deaths that happen when patients are in doctors' care.
And nobody should "register" guns because of deaths that happen when they're used, either.


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## James NM (Jan 4, 2007)

Jeez, lighten up. 

It's a jooooke! It's humor.

Everyone is poked fun at eventually. 

Do you see mobs of ******** following Jeff Foxworthy around with murder on the agenda?


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

James NM said:


> Jeez, lighten up.
> 
> It's a jooooke! It's humor.
> 
> ...


OK It's just fun to some -

It's just that some of us really dedicated our lives to taking care of patients and worked hard to even get to be doctors and this post - word for word - keeps coming up. We worked hard to get through med school and worked hours most perople never encountered taking care of patients most would never experience.

It's crude and stupid and should be dropped from any gun forums. It has no value to anyone and is offensive to many gun lovers who happen to be physicians also.

The numbers are also nothing but BS. I have many patients whose cancers I cured with surgery or save lives when they were victims of trauma - and those frequently came on hollidays, weekends, or in the middle of the night.

The post is stupid, without value, and very offensive to many of us. Stick to guns.

:smt076

:smt1099.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

The category at the top of the screen is:

*Offbeat Area* Forum area for the wacky/funny topics of the day.​
Original post is a satire of gun control.

sat·ire /ˈsætaɪər/ 
-noun 1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc. 
2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule. 
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.

Humor vs. gun control stats don't work because the only people ever killed by humor are its authors.


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

I understand what the original post was about and I also understand the offense that OJ has got from it after dedicating his life to medicine. Though I believe OJ misunderstood the intent of it. 

All I can say that if it were not for modern medicine (And a lot of prayer) I would have died in January of 1985. Actually, my heart stopped three times and the ICU docs started it up again. Because of a shattered femur I developed a pulmonary embolism and a bilateral phemothorax followed. Doctors have saved my life and put pieces back together many times. I think I've paid of a few orthopedic surgeons mortgages.

OJ, I highly doubt if the original post was meant to trash doctors. Our concern over doctors in relation to guns is that many of the liberal ones want them regulated into extinction. 

Your passion for people and their health is admirable and I for one would shake your hand and give you a big thank you.:smt023


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

tnoisaw said:


> I understand what the original post was about and I also understand the offense that OJ has got from it after dedicating his life to medicine. Though I believe OJ misunderstood the intent of it.
> 
> All I can say that if it were not for modern medicine (And a lot of prayer) I would have died in January of 1985. Actually, my heart stopped three times and the ICU docs started it up again. Because of a shattered femur I developed a pulmonary embolism and a bilateral phemothorax followed. Doctors have saved my life and put pieces back together many times. I think I've paid of a few orthopedic surgeons mortgages.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know and I can take a joke as well as anybody - it's just that this is about the ten thousandth time I've seen it and I suspect everyone here has seen it that many times - exactly word for word - and it really gets old after the first several hundred times.

Hard to understand with all the liberal anti-gun doctor organizations - why anyone on a gun forum would post offensive stuff about the pro gun doctors. No matter what you do or did for a living, I doubt you'd like such stuff - especially so obviously false anyway - said about your profession.

If you were a Marine in 1950 and were told this fuzzy faced kid was your Assistant Battalion Surgeon - would that give confidence - or just another reason to try to avoid getting wounded?










Fortunately, he's matured some :smt083










And shares "happy hour" stuff with friends -










:smt1099


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Nobody's going to "register" doctors because of deaths that happen when patients are in doctors' care.
> And nobody should "register" guns because of deaths that happen when they're used, either.


Actually, we do register doctors. And all kinds of other professionals. They are licensed and have to pass licensing board exams.

Maybe I've been brainwashed, but I value the fact that not just anyone can enter my profession, that a minimal degree of profeciency (if not spelling ability) must be shown. That improves the profession and helps maintain standards.

By the same token, I have never resented the state requiring us to take education and profeciency tests before we are licensed to carry. I don't resent having a criminal check run before purchasing a handgun.

Licensing boards for professionals do regulate the profession, and they do protect the public. They have never "banned" a profession.

I read people's rants about having to be licensed to carry, and then the same people post UTube videos about other people committing crimes with illegally obtained weapons.

I could go on, but I won't.

Rant over.

Thanks OJ for bringing some valid concerns.

WM


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

Thank you, Wandering Man.

I thought it was interesting that Dr Jarvik, inventor of the artificial heart had to be legally restrained from advertising for some cholesterol lowering drug. It looked, obviously, like he was prescribing on TV by using his history and calling himself Dr. Jarvik.

He was prohibited from further "advertising - advising" the drug because he isn't licensed (never has been) to practice medicine. 

He was evidently a better engineer/inventor than physician - having both a PhD and MD degrees - he never passed the exam to practice medicine. My suspicion is that he took the exam at least once and didn't pass - I would find it hard to believe anyone would put out the work and study needed to graduate med school and not take the licensing exam at least once.

:smt1099


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

Deleted - Accidental Double Post


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

QUOTE=tnoisaw;108812]I understand what the original post was about and I also understand the offense that OJ has got from it after dedicating his life to medicine. Though I believe OJ misunderstood the intent of it.

All I can say that if it were not for modern medicine (And a lot of prayer) I would have died in January of 1985. Actually, my heart stopped three times and the ICU docs started it up again. Because of a shattered femur I developed a pulmonary embolism and a bilateral phemothorax followed. Doctors have saved my life and put pieces back together many times. I think I've paid of a few orthopedic surgeons mortgages.

OJ, I highly doubt if the original post was meant to trash doctors. Our concern over doctors in relation to guns is that many of the liberal ones want them regulated into extinction.

Your passion for people and their health is admirable and I for one would shake your hand and give you a big thank you.:smt023[/QUOTE]

Thanks again for your kind post. At my age, I should have a thicker skin by now. I am well aware of the anti-gun organizations (the AMA I'm a life member of has nothing to do with medicine - it's motorcycles) as well as very anti-gun doctors. The public health ones are the worst and produce such ridiculous things as claiming "gun violence" is a virus that must be dealt with as any virus.:smt076

A couple of years ago some local cardiologist group with a political agenda (one wanted to be elected mayor) paid one of the most rabid public health doctors to "provide" us with his pitch. Some local pro-gunners resented my not attending the talk (dunno how many days I have left but - I'm sure not going to waste any going to speeches like that). I was somewhat forgiven when I wrote the following letter to editors of our local paper.

*Editors:

Public Health doctors tell us we should regard guns as "viruses" to be eradicated because exposure of persons to this "virus" causes them to contract the disease of "gun violence" that they are powerless to resist. Thus, guns are a public health problem.

Viruses cause hepatitis and AIDS and having close relationships with those harboring these viruses gives one significant risk of catching those diseases. This is clearly a public health problem.

I have had close relationships with guns for more than sixty-five years but have never felt like committing "gun violence." My wife and I have had a close relationship for twenty years and she is not afflicted either.

Astonishingly, public health doctors seem to have ignored the most effective tool ever devised to eradicate viruses-IMMUNIZATION. We inject a less powerful variant of viruses into persons and their bodies develop immunity to the more powerful virus. Using this principle, we could require every person to acquire a less powerful gun such as a .22 caliber single shot rifle. With time, their bodies would develop immunity so they could all safely handle and shoot more powerful guns such as handguns, semiautomatics, and even "assault rifles" without fear of developing the dreaded "gun violence" disease.

It seems to have worked for me.

Yours truly,*

Some people have little sense of humor - :smt083

:smt1099


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

Nice one OJ. I wish we had more docs like you that were more vocal about this.


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## Arcus (Feb 13, 2008)

[Nerd mode]
While this is a forum devoted primarily to the exercise of the 2nd Amendment, there's another that precedes it. I will say as a physician, I didn't laugh at the original post and easily identify with OJ's frustration with the use of medical (lies, damn lies and) statistics in the public press. But, when it comes to sarcasm and what are viewed by some as impolitic comments, I live in a glass house.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> To *Fred40* and *OJ*:
> Nobody's going to "register" doctors because of deaths that happen when patients are in doctors' care.


I and every practicing physician in the country have a very permanent record of my education, professional certifications, malpractice judgements, and disciplinary actions: National Practioner Data Bank
Also, check out your docs here: Docfinder, and here: Federation of State Medical Boards. Registration with the FSMB is effectively mandatory in the USA. 
[/Nerd mode]

[Smartass mode]
I pass gas for a living - unless you're with an HMO...
HMO approved general anesthetic:








[/Smartass mode]


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

Arcus said:


> [Nerd mode]
> While this is a forum devoted primarily to the exercise of the 2nd Amendment, there's another that precedes it. I will say as a physician, I didn't laugh at the original post and easily identify with OJ's frustration with the use of medical (lies, damn lies and) statistics in the public press. But, when it comes to sarcasm and what are viewed by some as impolitic comments, I live in a glass house.
> 
> I and every practicing physician in the country have a very permanent record of my education, professional certifications, malpractice judgements, and disciplinary actions: National Practioner Data Bank
> ...


You're my favorite kinda doc... at least if I don't throw up my lungs after coming back into the half way awake world. Which I haven't in the last few operations (Hurled). The first operation sucked. It was bad enough that I had a pulminary embolism a few years before, now I'm hurling my lungs out.:anim_lol:


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

While I appreciate *OJ's* concerns about the post, I don't really see a problem with a clearly satirical post in the Sound Off subforum. If we locked or deleted everything here that could potentially offend some members, well, we'd have to delete the whole Sound Off section.

I think the point about people seeing doctors because they are already sick makes the original post pretty irrelevant politically, but it is _satire_, after all, and not meant as a serious point for argument.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Thank you, Mike.

I wish that all you MDs would stop quoting me out of context, too.
My comment about "registering" doctors was a satiric comment on the metaphor, satire, and irony of the original joke (which, by the way, was not posted by me).

Lighten up, guys.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

OJ said:


> This very offensive thread/post is like the bad penny that just keeps showing up and won't go away and die the natural death it should.


Jokes circulate on the internet because of their noteriety. Voicing outrage and adding responses to this thread might yield results opposite to what you seek.

It is the nature of humor that not everyone will find everything funny. Some people might even get offended by some jokes. But why take anything seriously in a forum called the "Offbeat Area?"

Its more fun to share a drink with Hawkeye Pierce and BJ Hunnicut than Charles Emerson Winchester III.


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## Arcus (Feb 13, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Thank you, Mike.
> 
> I wish that all you MDs would stop quoting me out of context, too.
> My comment about "registering" doctors was a satiric comment on the metaphor, satire, and irony of the original joke (which, by the way, was not posted by me).
> ...


My humble apologies.  I should probably assume everything is at the very least tongue-in-cheek in this subforum.


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## Arcus (Feb 13, 2008)

submoa said:


> Jokes circulate on the internet because of their noteriety. Voicing outrage and adding responses to this thread might yield results opposite to what you seek.
> 
> It is the nature of humor that not everyone will find everything funny. Some people might even get offended by some jokes. But why take anything seriously in a forum called the "Offbeat Area?"
> 
> Its more fun to share a drink with Hawkeye Pierce and BJ Hunnicut than Charles Emerson Winchester III.


Personally, I like my martinis dry & dirty. And in case you think we can't make fun of ourselves, here's a couple of wiseass British anaesthetists on stage: Anaesthetist's Hymn It's LOL funny if you work in the OR environment, but good nonetheless.


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## Arcus (Feb 13, 2008)

tnoisaw said:


> You're my favorite kinda doc... at least if I don't throw up my lungs after coming back into the half way awake world. Which I haven't in the last few operations (Hurled). The first operation sucked. It was bad enough that I had a pulminary embolism a few years before, now I'm hurling my lungs out.:anim_lol:


If you want more info re. the various proemetic (puke) and antiemetic (antipuke) factors and drugs of post-op nausea/vomiting I'll give ya the run down. There's been good progress over the last decade in identifying the components on both sides in addition to the antiemetic drugs we already had.


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## OJ (Dec 25, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> While I appreciate *OJ's* concerns about the post, I don't really see a problem with a clearly satirical post in the Sound Off subforum. If we locked or deleted everything here that could potentially offend some members, well, we'd have to delete the whole Sound Off section.
> 
> I think the point about people seeing doctors because they are already sick makes the original post pretty irrelevant politically, but it is _satire_, after all, and not meant as a serious point for argument.


From the dictionary, we get the following definitions of satire:

*1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc. 
2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule. 
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions. *

That identical post has been around for several years and, on other forums, blocked - it has no redeeming value and, as I pointed out, those figures have never been posted by HHS regarding deaths due to doctors as was claimed in the post and is blatantly BS.

However, it clearly has the approval of the administration here and I think I am not compatible with that kind of thinking and will withdraw from this forum. I am more interested in sharing information about technical stuff and most of the threads I see look more social, at best, and most don't give formal approval of this kind of "satire" nonsense.

So Long


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

OJ doesn't get it, does he?
The satire was about *gun control*, not doctors.

Too bad...it's never nice to lose a correspondent. Especially one who likes scrub jays and squirrels.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> OJ doesn't get it, does he?


There is the possibility we may have been had by a master of subtlety and irony. For example, there is the irony inherent in his sig line:



OJ said:


> Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.


A possible objective of the protest could be to take the controversy to the next level of 1st amendment debate in an obviously humor oriented subforum. Getting folks riled up with a hoax could be seen as infinitely more amusing than the original post.

If this is true, well done!


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Well, I'm sorry to see *OJ* go over something so petty, but perhaps the answer for a lack of a sense of humor is to avoid subforums that are primarily about humor. I've seen this same post on several other forums, and never saw it locked, nor have I seen anyone get all offended by it.


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