# Most well-rounded caliber...



## robanna (Sep 9, 2007)

Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if I might borrow some advice and am hoping I explain this clearly. So, I'm 4 weeks into my NJ gun permit, which means I'm about a third of the way to being legally allowed to purchase in this state.

I've done a lot of research so far to narrow the handguns I'd like, but without having shot anything other than a 9mm, I wouldn't know which caliber is most appropriate to my needs. Understanding placement is key, I'd like something that is accurate for plinking and has good stopping power for HD, but doesn't kick the snot out of me or my wife with every round.

I understand about 9mm being more cost effective, but say price isn't a concern, because I don't anticipate shooting so much that it would be cost prohibitive. Gotta love those Northeast salaries :smt023

So, in order of my personal preferences for caliber, I think I would like:

1) something that doesn't cause a ton of recoil

2) something that doesn't cause an avalanche sound on each round. In September, I stood next to a guy with a revolver, not sure what kind, and every round he fired, actually hurt me to stand next to it. The percussion was sick and the noise was not enjoyable for plinking. I certainly see the value for HD, but this is not what I'd prefer.

3) Something that "feels" like a 9mm, but has more stopping power if needed in HD

I was initially thinking a .357 round might be the way to go, but that's completely ignorant, because I've not shot one. Based on what I've read, I'm not sold on the .40 either.

Can anyone help me set a sequential order on how rounds stack up from a 1 = less recoil/sound/stopping power to # = most recoil/sound/stopping power?

Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate the info. :smt1099


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Not sure why you don't want a 9mm, since it would seem to fulfill all your needs. With good premium modern JHPs, it is perfectly fine for defense and extremely easy to shoot well, even for novices. I've been shooting for 23 years, have taken multiple upper-level training courses, competed for the better part of a decade, and I generally prefer 9mm for defense.

Regarding a "scale," it's a little subjective because opinions vary on "feel" of recoil, but I'll give it a shot. Common full-service defense rounds, in ascending order of general ease and comfort of shooting:

9mm
.38 Special
.40 S&W (depending on load)
.45 ACP (again, depending on load)
.357 SIG
10mm
.357 Magnum

Some people will disagree with this list based on their own experiences with these calibers. A lot of it depends on the load chosen, too. Some .45 ACP loads are more pleasant to shoot than some .40 S&W loads, for example. Ditto 10mm versus .357 Magnum.

I didn't comment on the large bore revolver rounds (.44 Special, .45 Colt, etc.) since so few people use them for defense anymore. They are pleasant to shoot, though partially because they generally come in huge guns.


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## drummin man 627 (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm from New Jersey. When I asked a police officer who was the South Belmar P.D. armorer, and firearms training officer, his reply was to get a .357 magnum, buy the lightest load of .38 specials, and to get very familiar with the front sight. In otherwords get accurate. Then step up to medium loads, etc. Take the N.R.A. Safety course, both of you. 
The .38 special/ .357 magnum route will give you the most versatility. You can use it for just about anything from rabbits to small bears, and the .357 is rated as the best overall manstopper. BUT, you gotta get a solid hit. (practice)
N.J. was such a p.i.a. trying to get a gun legally, that I waited untill I moved to Fl, several years later, then took his advice.
Unless you carry diamonds, or such, you'll never get a carry permit, and you'll only use it at the range, and God forbid, home defense.
BTW, Welcome to the forum. And "What Exit Are You From?" Exit #102 here.....Long Branch. LOL
Good luck.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

I was getting ready to go back to a 45. I posted that tonight. After reading your response Mike I'm back with the nine. I printed that out so the next time I think about changing I'll read it again.

Thanks


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## hberttmank (May 5, 2006)

I think the 9mm round makes an excellent self defense round. I carry a 9mm auto often, and I don't feel unarmed. The nine has minimal recoil and muzzle blast making it easy to shoot rapidly and accurately. You can buy nines in small concealable autos or large frame guns with an impressive magazine capacity in the free states.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

I love my new .45, but to be honest... the versatility round is the 9mm. I would feel completely safe carrying a 9mm for personal defense, the ammo is cheaper, it's pleasant to shoot, and you can buy tons of guns that chamber it. 

That said... I have a high-cap .45 in my waistband...

I have a .45, a 9mm, and a .40 S&W. I'm going to trade the .40 for another 9mm soon for my CCW.

JW


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## robanna (Sep 9, 2007)

Everyone, thanks so far for all of the responses. Very helpful to my understanding.



Mike Barham said:


> Not sure why you don't want a 9mm, since it would seem to fulfill all your needs.


Mike, I'm definitely not against the 9mm and might end up with one, but I just didn't know how the different calibers stack up to each other. Coming from a non-gun friendly state, I didn't grow up with them. So, I'm in fact-finding mode now. Thanks again for ranking those. It really helped me to understand what rounds fit where. :smt023

Drummin...I'm exit 135 of the GSP. LOL!


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*describe*

robanna: Folks; "Mike Barham" gives good advice.
My approach to answers are a little different. 
1. Will you have time to practice
2. Will you take time to practice
3. Do you have a place to practice
4. by all means this includes you wife
5. Are there 'children in the house'
6. Have you a "safe place for storage when appropriate"
7. Home defense thinking?

Given a yes to most of these answers: Consider the next set
1. A revolver is simpler to load
2. A revolver is basic
3. A revolver is accurate
4. A revolver is "rounder"

1. a semi auto takes a little bit of practice to load
2. a semi auto has more moving parts
3. a semi auto is accurate
4. a semi auto is 'Flatter"

There is more to this list's/list
Given that I have two [2] specific models in mind.
Ruger GP 100 .357 revolver will shoot .38 or .357's
Glock 17 will shoot 9mm's

Advantage GP 100; you will be able to shoot 'cheaper' .38's with less felt recoil [compared to .357's recoil/expense]
Advantage Glock 17; shoot 9mm; cheaper to shoot; equate more practice
My recommendations will take into account "adjustable sights will be on both models.

Conceal ability: both 'suck' Will they be around for your 'great grand Children" the Ruger definitely will. 
My last concern: Should you not "practice" you have just paid an awful lot for a "boat anchor"

Keep posting your thoughts: Thanks; for considering us in your new adventure.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

My impression is that you are looking for one handgun, one that will meet your stated requirements, and evidently will not be used for concealed carry.

I have six 9mm's, so obviously I like them. I do not have a .357. If I were needing something that meets what is stated above, I would get a .357 revolver. A .357 will meet all of your stated needs, including your desire for more stopping power than a 9mm. In fact, a .357 would probably meet requirements you haven't even thought of yet, such as hunting feral hogs (you'll have to forgive me -- I live in Texas....). The versatility of shooting everything from light-loaded lead wadcutters to full-house .357 mag. would be hard to duplicate in most any other handgun cartridge, save the .44mag..

That being said, I would also agree that 9mm is just fine for self/home defense (obviously....). However, one must buy what makes one feel safe, and I wouldn't argue against anyone who wants more power than a 9mm. If I could only have one handgun (God forbid), it would be a .357.

hth,
PhilR.
p.s. You mentioned "wife". Wife means "2nd handgun". Get a .357 *and* a good 9mm. You've got those good eastern salaries after all....:mrgreen:


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

neophyte said:


> Keep posting your thoughts: Thanks; for considering us in your new adventure.


Hey Craig,

That's a very nice sign-off line, and I like it a lot. I hope you don't mind if I use it on some other forums I participate in....

sincerely,
PhilR.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*yes sir*

PhilR. Yes sir; I have no objections.:smt023


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## robanna (Sep 9, 2007)

neophyte said:


> robanna: Folks; "Mike Barham" gives good advice.
> My approach to answers are a little different.
> 1. Will you have time to practice
> 2. Will you take time to practice
> ...


Neophyte,

Great perspective and thanks for taking the time to be insightful. Here are my realistic answers:
1) Given the limited # of ranges locally, I would hope to practice at least 2 times per month. Not a lot but, I would anticipate blowing through quite a bit of ammo on those days.

2) As much as possible. I might even use it as a different type of "date night" with the wife. Leave Jr. at Granny's and head to the range. If that happens, I'd say the practice goes up to 3-5 times per month.
3) limited within 25 miles
4) Yep
5) Yep (2-yr-old boy)
6) FWIW, my friends call me "Capt. Safety," because I have tons of safety gear for whatever I do. Hell, I'd wear a helmet walking if I could  I am researching safes and will most likely look for a small tamper-proof one that has a keypad or biomarker entry. I would not want a key to be lost or Jr. to find out how to reset the digital fingerprints. I prolly would not store the loaded magazine anywhere else for HD purposes, but it not be "in" the gun for storage. I might like the trigger lock on it, but again in an HD situation that might be counterproductive and dangerous. So, right now, leaning toward a small (two handgun + ammo) sized best, most tamper proof safe I can get money no worries. I'd rather spend it on safety and have peace of mind.
7) HD would involve my gun in the BR and I'm currently thinking in the wall or bedside. I don't know if NJ allows a rail light, but I'd like one for an additional safety measure (see what I'm shooting when time to pull trigger). I'm sure a 9mm would work just fine and I'd have 10 tries to stop the attacker before it goes h-2-h. I'll have my trusty SpyderCo knife for that.

Thanks again for the great feedback.

Phil R.--Thanks to you as well. I will not carry as it's extremely hard to get CCW in NJ. You're thoughts about two guns are directly in line with my thinking, but my wife is dragging her feet with her app, so I'm at least 6 weeks ahead of her in the system so far and no telling when she'll drop it off. I could choose to do a larger caliber for me and the 9mm for her!

Thanks guys! :smt023


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2007)

I orginally thought you were getting a CCL but in rereading it sounds like a permit to purchase/own. I tend to be in the revolver camp as I think they are safer for a novice. The old S&W model 10 (38 SPL) has been around over 100 years and can still do the job. The previously mentioned GP 100 (357 Mag) is built like a tank, accurate and in 357 Mag a primo stopper. I own both but my nightstand gun is a Ruger P94 in 40 S&W. It is very accurate with 155 gr JHP and 100% reliable. The P94 is a large auto and as such recoil isn't an issue to me. I feel most any of the major calibers previously listed will do the job and what your primary consideration should be is safety.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*good thinking*

robanna: Folks; without rhetoric thinking. Mr. and Mrs. guns should be compatible. Your away she/he grabs one; happens not the one she/you are not completely familiar with. PROBLEM.
1. most new-comers will practice at HOME with handling unit; GOOD 
2. most new-comers will read all about there new unit; Good
3. most new-comers have a preconceived opinion about this unit ??
4. most new-comers are led by a friends advice ??
5. most new-comers believe what they see [about guns] on TV; not good
6. most new-comers don't spend enough time with said unit.; not good

Without boring you to tears.
1. I do not know how to use a VCR/Disk thing/ microwave oven 
a. I am Federally licensed Amatuer Radio Tech 
2. I train specialized tool repair across the country plus design specials
a. I have problems with a channel changer
3. I have worked below ground; worked on towers
a. I haven't/don't know how to set the clock in my truck of 17yrs.

What is my point?
1. Some things to me are important
a. Yeah Right.

Understanding the function; understanding the principle; understanding MY priorities; understanding my curiosity

With any weapon that I am involved; my life is at stake. I promised myself my wife and son that I would be responsible. Reading exploring seeing how/why/when things happen. Important to me, and should be important to you. {we go shooting together] MY life is in your hands.

You may see that I haven't mentioned again about 1 weapon over another.
With purpose I left out Brand A-X
Best ADVICE you'll ever recieve/get
DON'T COVER WHAT YOU DO NOT INTEND TO DESTROY.
all guns are loaded
all guns are always loaded
If you become uncomfortable at your shooting PLACE? Leave 
Should you see people playing with a weapon/weapons? Leave

These are my Rules.

If you are interested I'll do a break down of the positive and negative
of the different units

Thanks for making me think.


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## KD7ONE (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs and I can handle a .45 with one hand, but a 9mm is a good round.

With a 9mm you might have to worry about round placement (go for the head).

With a .45 you can hit the intruder anywhere and they are going down.


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## robanna (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks to all for the answers. And, thanks to Neophyte and KD7 for the latest ones.

I must say that I've had tons of fun researching just about everything I can get my hands on, so I'm learning. In addition, my wife and I have had several important and interesting discussions about guns, cartridge, caliber, and safety.

That said, I'm still not sure what we'll get, but after receiving some good feedback here the current strategy involves a 357mag/.38 revolver for me (neophyte: which my wife will also practice with, because it will be the one we grab for HD) and a 9mm semi-auto like the Walther P99 or S&W M&P for plinking and HD backup.

The revolver suggestion has really peaked my interest, because I never considered it really. I love the idea of something from S&W Performance like the the 327M&P R8 8shot, because it seems like it would be a blast at the range!

The one thing that really sux is that I will have to make the decisions without shooting one. There are NO, I repeat, NO gunshops that I've found locally that allow you to shoot a gun prior to buying it. I'm going to keep looking.

Mike was kind enuff to provide a list of expected recoil with different cartridges, but can someone explain if the .357 has unbearable recoil? I know that sounds subjective, but if the general consensus is that the shooter will suffer each time a .357 fires, then it seems like that would sap our enjoyment of this gun.

The S&W M&P R8 has rubberized grip to absorb the recoil, but I really just don't know what to expect having never shot one. I could deal with some pain and still control the gun, but my wife is on the smaller side and for HD we'd keep the 357s handy. I wouldn't want it flying out of her hand.

Thanks again! :smt023


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## drummin man 627 (Dec 25, 2006)

Continue your research. 
Recoil is subjective. If you are being threatened you'll hardly notice it. Most of the "premium" .357 magnum rounds seem to have the lighter weight projectiles. They kick less than a 158 + grain hunting projectile.
As with anything new, start slow, using the lighter .38 special loads. They , too come in several different weights. Again, the lighter loads generally kick less. 
You'll both need to learn to control the gun at ranges from 5 feet to 30 feet. Start at 5 feet. As the groups shrink, move the target out a couple of feet at a time.
A 9 inch paper plate makes a good, cheap target. I use 8 1/2 X 11 in computer paper. Most times I don't even print targets on them. I'm only looking for "practical" accuracy. With a revolver you can get a replacement grip to better suit your needs. I put a Hogue soft rubber monogrip on my revolver, and feel that I am always in control of the grip, even if not the groups.
If memory serves me right Exit 135 is near Rahway. I used to gig up there many years ago. I'm surprised that there aren't any ranges that rent. Then again, knowing the Jersey mentality about guns, I shouldn't be.
Good luck.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*The Gun Guy*

robanna: Folks; webcon.com/gun_/rangesnj.htm check these folks out. Ask them where you can rent and shoot.
You have received good advice from "drummin man 627" 
You have received thinking from KD7ONE 
again another perspective 
1. recoil is subjective
2. recoil is manageable
3. recoil isn't anything to be afraid of [in stock forum] exclude above .45
4. recoil is a mind set

KD7ONE suggest one hand .45 auto: weighing in at 5'4" 110lbs. I'm not surprised. Recoil has little to do with your physical size. Recoil is manageable.
1. recoil is a product of powder-bullet-gun weight-hand placement-conditioning
a. a mouthful
2. recoil is a product of mind set [in conventional guns] redundant
3. recoil in 'semi auto's' of a .40 is less than a revolver at .357
a. dynamics of physics
a. revolver has one dynamic energy moment
b. 'semi' has multi motions; almost simultaneously

Placement of thinking:
Sit in an office; shuffling paper, typing, answering phone, most days sitting at desk, walking about office space, catch a cab home, play with baby, occasionally grocery store shopping: basic daily exercise 
Some people have a natural ability without totally understanding what/how they have accomplished some perceived difficult activities. It is not explainable; it is one of wonders of the world.
Shooting guns fall into part of this. Some conditioning is required. I described it above with Placement of Thinking.

1. guns and recoil
a. powder-bullet-gun weight-hand placement
a. lighter the load; less the recoil
a. 110grn bullet load will have less recoil than .158 grn. load
2.Physics 101
a. pulling trigger sets off a series of events.
a. firing pin hits primer, which set off powder in case, when ignited powder blows the bullet out the barrel while still burning some of the powder

Too much info. huh. Try this: KISMIF rule:
The lighter the load i.e. bullet/powder combination the less recoil. You at this time will not be able; within reason; to control 'powder' in your case.
So control bullet weight. 
110grn. bullet for .38 equals fun
175grn. bullet for .357 equals fun with increased felt recoil i.e. don't start with this. It will rock and roll; It will not blow out of your hand; again within reason. Manageable just a different level of 'fun'
With Revolver/Semi Auto purchase lighter loads. You'll not have any problem with RECOIL: Firm Grip; not strangling a mangy dog who hasn't eatin in a month. Allow gun design to carry it through its designed moment/motion; Lighter bullets will teach you what your particular unit habits are. Nothing to be afraid of.

Had to think to much; again thanks for allowing us to be a part of your new adventure.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

robanna said:


> Thanks to all for the answers. And, thanks to Neophyte and KD7 for the latest ones.
> 
> Mike was kind enuff to provide a list of expected recoil with different cartridges, but can someone explain if the .357 has unbearable recoil? I know that sounds subjective, but if the general consensus is that the shooter will suffer each time a .357 fires, then it seems like that would sap our enjoyment of this gun.
> 
> ...


Full power .357 rounds in a light revolver will leave you bloody after a very few rounds. They are not fun to shoot unless you happen to be a masochist. Your wife will not like them. Light is anything under 30 oz. IMHO.

If you wish to shoot hot .357 get something with a 4" to 6" barrel and weighing near 40 oz.

I recently chronographed Winchester White box 130 Grain .38 specials out of a 2 1/4 inch snubby. Velocity averaged 773 Fps. Not very impressive if a BG is wearing a jacket. 125 Grain Gold Dot +P came in at 950 which might have trouble getting thru a coat + sweater. You have to use Magnum loads to achieve better than Mouse Gun performance with a snubby then you get beat up.

Make the effort to find a range that will rent what you wish to try or something close to it before purchasing.

Florida is a big modern place and I expect is up to providing a sample shoot for someone that really wants one.

Good Luck.

:smt1099


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## astrogus (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree that the .357 is the best "one gun" answer. I just recently got my 1st gun and it is a 7shot S&W 686 w/ a 4" barrel. I'm 160lbs and 5'9, I can shoot it accurately after a lot of practice. A girl I take shooting can handle it as well. It does kick, but you get used to it. I've shot it one handed several times now too. Shooting .38s is a breeze with the gun.

That said, I keep .38+p's loaded in it at home. THE MOST important lesson I've learned is that if you shot this thing w/ .357s in the dark in a room at your house it would be overwhelming. You would end up half blind(from the flash) and completely deaf for a period of time. That could be a problem. The .38s are very manageable.

I also just got a 9mm, it is very manageable but less accurate( shorter barrel. I've since sold the 9mm because it just doesn't compare. In a situation, I KNOW the .357 will go BANG. That R8 .357 sure is sweet, I've checked one out.

Sorry for the long post. Doug


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## Bullseye (May 14, 2007)

Definitely 357, I have nines, .40's & 357's, and the 357 is the most versitile. It gives you the stopping power of a magnum and will also allow you to shoot 38 special. Someone earlier recommended a Ruger gp100. I concure with that, it is built rock solid and Ruger's customer service cant be beat, they really back their product. It will outlast you, if taken care of.
Good luck


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## ORYGUN (Oct 20, 2006)

*best round*

.357
It's got range close to some rifle rounds. readily available. Can be carried in a small package. Used in carbines made for it, and can kill most medium game. I've got two.


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