# Dustoff's question



## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Dustoff wrote:
"I have witnessed hundreds of decisions by these folk, that only led to a more horrific re-occurance of anti-social/criminal behaviors committed by those very miscreants who were given a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, umpteenth chance. I am most curious of the history of these murderers...juvenile, school behaviors, jail/prison time, number of offenses..."

I wanted to start a new thread on this topic, because I don't want to distract from the Disposable Vets thread.

Dustoff, Yes, you are right, there is a lot of folks who get out of the consequences of their actions (prison) by hiding behind the words of psychologist. And there are psychologists out there who make a buck tweaking the data to put the client (offender) in the best possible light, so the attorney can then confuse the judge and jury. Hopefully there is less of that today than there was 10 years ago, as the profession is trying to clean up its act. But it still happens.

Now, as to your question: "I am most curious of the history of these murderers...juvenile, school behaviors, jail/prison time, number of offenses..." 

Was it rhetorical, or would you like to actually hear about some of the dynamics that go on between the ears of these folks? I would be glad to review the different "Mental Illnesses" that these folks often claim to have, if you (and the rest of the forum) are intersted.

I offer this, with the understanding that you do not have to agree with what I say. I would ask, in turn, that you understand that the information I would offer is really just my interpretation of the data/writings of other professionals, tempored by my own experience in working with these folks in a clinical setting.

If not interested (I know this really does not belong on a gun forum), then simply do not reply. Otherwise, I am liable to run at the mouth (keyboard?) for a long time.

:smt1099 

WM


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

victumology has a cottage industry going in the billion of dollars per year.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2006)

*I'm game....*



Wandering Man said:


> Dustoff wrote:
> "I have witnessed hundreds of decisions by these folk, that only led to a more horrific re-occurance of anti-social/criminal behaviors committed by those very miscreants who were given a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, umpteenth chance. I am most curious of the history of these murderers...juvenile, school behaviors, jail/prison time, number of offenses..."
> 
> I wanted to start a new thread on this topic, because I don't want to distract from the Disposable Vets thread.
> ...


....I think this is a subject matter that deserves attention, especially in a gun forum, where there is a perception, or perhaps, a mis-perception that gun advocates are hard line law and order types...I'm open to breaking out the DSM V, or are we up to VI or VII, and discussing the making of a criminal.:smt1099


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## DennyCrane (May 11, 2006)

Dustoff '68 said:


> I'm open to breaking out the DSM V, or are we up to VI or VII, and discussing the making of a criminal.:smt1099


You cannot do that! Dustoff thinks he knows everything... Nothing to discuss... :smt082


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Well, psychiatrists have a difficult time with change. So no, they haven’t published the DSM V, yet (but I think it is lurking in the wings). The current edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is IV-TR. They went from IV to the IV – Text Revision.

Let me start by stating my position on any of these diagnoses: A diagnosis is an explanation. It is not an excuse.

As far as I am aware, diagnoses that have come up in criminal cases range from severe, like psychoses, to minor, like ADHD. Bipolar Disorder (the flavor of the month), and ADHD seem to be attached to a lot of criminal activity. Schizophrenia is usually related to rare but bizarre criminal events. What is less talked about in the news, are personality disorders like Borderline and Antisocial. 

Let’s start with the minor things, then work our way up. I think a big deal was made over Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) a few years back. ADHD is considered to be an impulse control disorder: 
“I have ADHD, so I couldn’t help myself.”

Theoretically, ADHD is related to a part of the brain, the reticular activating system (RAS), that isn’t doing its job. Suspects are birth trauma, anoxia, drugs on board the mother, or bad genes passed down from parent or child. 
The RAS is responsible for making sure the brain is awake, helps to guide your focus to sounds, sights, etc. that are important for you to pay attention to, like a noise that doesn’t belong there, may warn you of a saber toothed tiger stalking you in the woods.

There are three kinds of ADHD: Inattentive type (Can’t sustain attention; as in if asked to do three things, you really only listened to the first), Impulsive/hyperactive type (If you want it, you take it and/or have to keep the body moving or you fall asleep), and combined type (both of the above).
It is my personal opinion that we do not do enough in our world today to teach kids or adults to stretch their attention span. Remember when you had to pay attention to a ½ hour long TV show? Since Sesame Street, everything is broken into bite sized chunks. Sesame Street was controversial when it started because of all of the short segments. Their claim was they wanted to be able to address the fact that young kids have very short attention spans. The result of their success is that there is now nothing on TV that doesn’t break everything into very short segments. Video games don’t help, either. If you want to work on stretching your ability to concentrate or attend, you need to read a book, engage in a lengthy conversation, or do some other activity in the real world.

A lot of kids get sent to me because parents think their children have ADHD. Often we “cure” the ADHD with parenting. I have a whole big rant on how too many parents today want to be their children’s buddies and not their parents. I’ll save that for later (maybe).
Other emotional disorders sometimes look like ADHD, like anxiety and depression. Both genetics and inconsistent parenting can cause those disorders, too.

So, does ADHD really exist? Yes. Does everyone who claims to have ADHD really have it? No. The treatment for ADHD is usually to go to your physician, and get a prescription of Ritalin, or some other form of amphetamine. This helps keep your brain alert, and some people without ADHD like the “wired” feeling.

Can ADHD cause bad behavior? No, but it can contribute to it. If no one steps in and starts setting boundaries for the child, then the child never learns to begin self-control. Kids with ADHD can be very wearing on parents. The require extra vigilance to adequately parent the child, but once the parents have a plan in place, are consistent in their discipline techniques, then the child becomes easier to parent.

Sometimes, kids never learn about consequences until they are adults, and in trouble with the law.

Now, how many toes have I stepped on here? 

I’ve got to go to work now. I’ll let ya’ll mull this stuff over in the meantime.
Lets talk about Bipolar Disorder next. It’s the flavor of the month.

WM


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2006)

*I don't think you have stepped on any toes...*



Wandering Man said:


> Well, psychiatrists have a difficult time with change. So no, they haven't published the DSM V, yet (but I think it is lurking in the wings). The current edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is IV-TR. They went from IV to the IV - Text Revision.
> 
> Let me start by stating my position on any of these diagnoses: A diagnosis is an explanation. It is not an excuse.
> 
> ...


...I, of course, am opposed to all so-called ADHD drugs....as a practicing Nurse Practitioner/Physician Assistant, I counsel parents who come to our practice looking for "speed" for their kids, because some 20 something year old teacher says that little Johnny is so bad, and she will have him expelled if he isn't "chemically restrained"...I do know that an active engagement of your children, appropriate nurturing, and limit setting, with appropriate rewards, plus a little bit of appropriate punishment, goes a lot farther than setting up your children for a life long dependence on chemicals....I do not believe in better living through chemistry...diet, love, care, support, rewards and punishment....that's what has worked for me and my 4 siblings, and what has worked for my kids.

OK....let the flame wars begin....


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

*+1*

+1 for Dustoff. I am out of here.. 
:watching: :watching: :watching: :watching: :watching: :watching: :watching:


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

Dustoff '68 said:


> ...I, of course, am opposed to all so-called ADHD drugs....as a practicing Nurse Practitioner/Physician Assistant, I counsel parents who come to our practice looking for "speed" for their kids, because some 20 something year old teacher says that little Johnny is so bad, and she will have him expelled if he isn't "chemically restrained"...I do know that an active engagement of your children, appropriate nurturing, and limit setting, with appropriate rewards, plus a little bit of appropriate punishment, goes a lot farther than setting up your children for a life long dependence on chemicals....I do not believe in better living through chemistry...diet, love, care, support, rewards and punishment....that's what has worked for me and my 4 siblings, and what has worked for my kids.
> 
> OK....let the flame wars begin....


+ Gazzilion Couldn't agree more.......proper disipline goes a LONG way!!!!


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Dustoff '68 said:


> ...I, of course, am opposed to all so-called ADHD drugs....as a practicing Nurse Practitioner/Physician Assistant, I counsel parents who come to our practice looking for "speed" for their kids, because some 20 something year old teacher says that little Johnny is so bad, and she will have him expelled if he isn't "chemically restrained"...I do know that an active engagement of your children, appropriate nurturing, and limit setting, with appropriate rewards, plus a little bit of appropriate punishment, goes a lot farther than setting up your children for a life long dependence on chemicals....I do not believe in better living through chemistry...diet, love, care, support, rewards and punishment....that's what has worked for me and my 4 siblings, and what has worked for my kids.
> 
> OK....let the flame wars begin....


In my clinic, a lot of parents want the easy route: "give me a diagnosis so I can go back to my doctor and get a pill for the kid."

One treatment I did not mention is EEG biofeedback, or neurofeedback. We've had pretty good success over the years doing this treatment in combination with parenting training.

I'll not argue with anyone who does not want to drug their kids.

WM


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

*Bipolar Disorder*

Let's see, Bipolar Disorder. There is so much, let me try to condense.

Bipolar Disorder simply means that you have a mood disorder that cycles between two extremes: Depressed and Manic. There are varying severities, from Cyclothymia to Mild to Moderate to Severe, to Severe with Psychotic Features. It is usually people with the Severe or Severe with Psychotic Features that end up in the papers or the courtroom.

It is usually the Manic mood swings that get people into trouble with the law. When swinging into the Manic phase, people can begin to feel grandiose, invincible, and very good about them selves. They can also become very irritable and delusionally angry over the smallest of slights. It is during this phase that people do highly risky behavior: promiscuous sex without protection, driving too fast, shoplifting, spending money they don't have, drinking excessively, or doing drugs.

If they are psychotic, then they have lost touch with reality, and may develop delusions, or irrational beliefs. Believing that God wants them to sacrifice their children, or that Paris Hilton will love them if they perform some outrageous public act. These are the folks who, if they act out their delusions, grab big headlines.

It's the other, less psychotic folk, who usually just end up in jail, or on the back pages.

Treating Bipolar Disorder takes an effort. But, just because someone has this disorder does NOT mean they are excused from acting appropriately. It is their responsibility to seek treatment and to follow through with treatment. Treatment is usually done with medication management and education. This is not a disease that can be "cured" by talking about how bad mommy treated me as a kid. BUT, talk therapy, if focused on education and skills building can help when medication management is underway.

A mood chart is essential. It is the responsibility of the client to monitor his mood swings, to learn what kinds of daily stressors can through him into a cycle, to be aware when his sleep patterns are changing, and what the early warning signs are to a mood swing. He or she should then take steps to prevent the mood swing from going out of control.

Not all folks with Bipolar Disorder end up in jail or on drugs. So just having the label does not excuse the bad behavior.

Folks with Bipolar Disorder are usually the ones with poorest medication compliance. They often believe they no longer need the medication once they swing into the Manic phase. Or they are afraid of loosing their creative edge. In addition to taking risks in relationships and other aspects of life, they may also take risks with artwork. Often people will be at their most creative when in a manic state. Poetry, music, paintings, sculpture, etc. is often drawn from the depths of their depression, and expressed during the manic phase.

Cognitive techniques can be helpful in teaching folks with Bipolar Disorder to control irrational destructive beliefs. Family and friends should be incorporated into treatment to help the individual learn to monitor his or her behavior. If there is a family history of it, then you are at a higher risk. And you don't just get struck by the Bipolar Fairy overnight and wake up the next day with a full-blown disease. There are usually signs of Bipolar Disorder at an early age. When mild depression starts to deepen, or when hyperactive behavior starts to worsen, then you should go see a doctor. If you consistently find that you really don't need much sleep, or if you have gone more than 24 hours without sleep and you don't really feel it, then see a doctor. If you find that you start a lot of projects, and never really finish any of them, see your doctor. Or go see Dustoff 68.

Did I mention they often do drugs? Some may use the illegal drugs as self-medication. But I have also run into situations where it is unclear if the person really has Bipolar Disorder, or if their manic states (read: criminal behavior) are the result of cocaine abuse or methamphetamine abuse. It can be easy to misdiagnosis Bipolar disorder when doing a Pre-Sentencing Evaluation and you've only had a short time to observe and interview the person. I usually err on the side of caution, and add a Rule/Out diagnosis of Substance Induced Mood Disorder.

Bottom line, if you end up on a jury where the defendant says he couldn't help himself because he has Bipolar Disorder, remember that he had the responsibility to seek treatment and to follow through with that treatment.

OK, what did I miss?

WM


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## Hal8000 (May 8, 2006)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that out side of the gun, ADHD drugs was a common denominator in all of the school shootings...

The guy that attacked my family was reported to have stopped taking his meds prior to shooting us up.

I work at a very high suspension bridge where we have at least one person jump to their deaths each year, and almost every one of them where either on or just off their meds...

The stuff seems to have VERY negative side effects to me....


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, I have dealt with many bipolar people over the years - I can say that w/o medicine and treatment, they are a big danger to others. WIth it, assuming they don't quit taking the medicine when they feel "better," they are much better off.

What else can be done w/ guys like this - ya can't lock them up forever for being bipolar. So, treatment is about all U can do. Only think I could see is making the treatment more enforceable/mandatory - but then ya need a whole other "police force" going to all their homes to verify they take their medicine all day long...


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## Hal8000 (May 8, 2006)

I don't pretend to know what the answers are Ship, but these drugs are not cutting the mustard from my admittedly limited point of veiw...


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Nuke 'em:smt011


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Hal8000 said:


> I don't pretend to know what the answers are Ship, but these drugs are not cutting the mustard from my admittedly limited point of veiw...


You're right, when it comes to Bipolar Disorder, the meds are far from perfect. Often some one with Biploar Disorder first goes to their doctor or psychiatrist for Depression. Antidepressants by themselves will sometimes trigger a manic episode.

Then they are put on mood stablalizers. But which one? Lithium is the oldest, and works OK with some folks. Then they started putting people on Anti-seizure medication with some success. There are now newer generations of mood stabalizers. But, to find the right one and the right dosage for the person can take a long time.

A lot of the medications cause weight gain, and people complain and become noncompliant. Adding illegal drugs into the mix further complicates how well or if the medications work. Some people are coming in to see the psychiatrist at our office every month for a med change.

This is not exact science, and there are no good answers.

WM


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2006)

*One of the major problems with anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, etc., is that you would be in good shape if you didn't have any other medical problems...many of these drugs cannot be taken with ace inhibitors, ant-hypertensives, if one is on oral hyperglycemics, etc....AND, there are limitations to what foods and drink you can injest, further adding to the high rate of non-compliance, and secondary complications due to bad interractions with many other drugs and foods. THEN, you have to have regularly scheduled tests to determine LFT's, TSR's, Lithium levels, cardiac enzymes, EKG's....jeeeezzzuzzz....forget the science.....we're killing these folks with science........*


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Dustoff '68 said:


> *One of the major problems with anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, etc., is that you would be in good shape if you didn't have any other medical problems...many of these drugs cannot be taken with ace inhibitors, ant-hypertensives, if one is on oral hyperglycemics, etc....AND, there are limitations to what foods and drink you can injest, further adding to the high rate of non-compliance, and secondary complications due to bad interractions with many other drugs and foods. THEN, you have to have regularly scheduled tests to determine LFT's, TSR's, Lithium levels, cardiac enzymes, EKG's....jeeeezzzuzzz....forget the science.....we're killing these folks with science........*


+1

Wasn't it easier when we just locked 'em up in an asylem and forgot about them?

WM


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Yes, I see lots of complaining, but at the current time, there is nothing else that can be done. Some people are able to live normal lives on their medications. Some can't - but, its the only option we have at the moment - Only other thing is like Wanderingman said. And we can't always do that....


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