# how should I measure my groups??



## Flashbang (Sep 11, 2006)

Over the last 8 years, I have shot almost all of the premium loads for the 357 sig out of my P229. I have kept all the targets, and would now like to get the ruler out and measure my group sizes to compare accuracy. I shot 3 strings of 6 shots offhand at each target from a distance of 25yards... so 18 shots total per target.
(other than that, this is totally unscientific - Some days were hot, some were cold - some days I was tired, some days well rested)
My question is.... how many shots should I eliminate as "flyers" to more accurately represent the group sizes.....


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## big dutchman (Jan 9, 2007)

i say count them all. i include all flyers into my group sizing. i practice so that i can maintain peak performance with my handguns and to identify any areas of weakness. if i continue to have unexeptable 'flyers' with a certain gun in a certain scenario, that's what i will be practicing until i am comfortable with it. i don't shoot competition at all, so i'm not interested in averages. all my shooting is done in preparation of self defense or hunting, both of which depend alot on that first shot (which for me is usually the flyer).


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## Flashbang (Sep 11, 2006)

In this case I am more interested in representing the capability of the round correctly for comparison purposes. I will admit that the flyers are most likely me and not the round, or firearm... I'm definately taken the concensus of the poll tho" ( plus one I posted on another site )


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## big dutchman (Jan 9, 2007)

i carry a 229 in 357sig in the winter months. i will be very interested to hear what round had the best accuracy out of your sig. please let me know, perhaps there is one i need to try out.


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## Theprofessor (Jun 24, 2007)

count them!


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Only count the ones that hit the center ring.

:smt160 :smt071:smt068:smt070 :smt067 :rock::enforcer::impact::rip::shock::snipe:

WM


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## Anxiety. (May 1, 2007)

I may be new but shouldn't they all be counted. Obviously the BG doesn't care if one bullet out of the ones that hit him is a couple of inches away. But i believe they should all be counted.

Nate


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## drummin man 627 (Dec 25, 2006)

Count them all. Note one flyer.


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## JimmySays (Jun 8, 2007)

Count them all. The flyer is usually the shooter not the firearm.
Concentration is the key. Always remember, shooting is just like real estate.
Location, Location, Location.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

If you are writing for a gun magazine, count only the best 3, then divide by 2.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

milquetoast said:


> If you are writing for a gun magazine, count only the best 3, then divide by 2.


:smt023

:anim_lol:ROTFLMAO:anim_lol:


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Flashbang said:


> Over the last 8 years, I have shot almost all of the premium loads for the 357 sig out of my P229. I have kept all the targets, and would now like to get the ruler out and measure my group sizes to compare accuracy. I shot 3 strings of 6 shots offhand at each target from a distance of 25yards... so 18 shots total per target.
> (other than that, this is totally unscientific - Some days were hot, some were cold - some days I was tired, some days well rested)
> My question is.... how many shots should I eliminate as "flyers" to more accurately represent the group sizes.....


Just how many targets do you have? I would need a pretty large store room to hold an 8 year supply. :smt1099


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Wandering Man said:


> Only count the ones that hit the center ring.
> 
> :smt160 :smt071:smt068:smt070 :smt067 :rock::enforcer::impact::rip::shock::snipe:
> 
> WM


:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Flashbang (Sep 11, 2006)

JimmySays said:


> Count them all. The flyer is usually the shooter not the firearm.


Exactly!! Again, I am not trying in any way to gauge , compare or chart _my_ abilities. I'm trying to compare the potential of one brand of ammo to another brand of ammo. This is why I think a flyer or two should be eliminated to reduce my human error. Ideally, you would use a ransom rest in identical weather conditions but that's not the way I did it.....


> Just how many targets do you have? I would need a pretty large store room to hold an 8 year supply


Let me clarify... when I say premium rounds, I mean JHP's. I mostly shoot FMJ's when I practice. I have kept virtually every target when I used Pemium JHP's in these....


> I shot 3 strings of 6 shots offhand at each target from a distance of 25yards


...conditions



> Only count the ones that hit the center ring.


This may be more telling than counting all of them actually


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## Dragonheart (Jan 30, 2012)

The most accepted method is to fire three to five strings of five shot groups. The group size is measured from center to center of the farthest two shots in the group, so yes flyers count. Then compare your best group and worst group and average.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Unless you are a superior marksman, and shooting at longer distances (say, 25 yards), the data you create isn't going to be very representative, in my opinion. Most handgun shooters are simply not consistently accurate enough to be able to assess differences in similarly loaded ammo by shooting groups. Shooting handgun ammo with the same weight bullet that is loaded for the same velocity is going to nearly always be very close, in a handgun round, with an average shooter at the controls.

About the only time I shoot groups with a self defense handgun is when it is shooting consistently high or low and I want to try to change the POI by using a different bullet weight. Often, the POI of a gun that is shooting low can be raised by shooting a heavier bullet (and vice-versa), which is usually a better option than banging around on, or filing on fixed sights.


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## Haas (Jun 24, 2009)

I gotta say, I was a little nervous opening a thread that began with, "How should I measure my...."


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## beretta9mm (Feb 13, 2012)

Being new to shooting what do you mean by "flyers". Sorry if that's a stupid question.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

A flyer is the 'one that got away.' 

All but the most experienced marksmen will "yank one" fairly often, when trying to shoot for groups, especially a 5 shot, or more, group. By that, I mean that you may shoot 4 out of 5 that are fairly close together, and one that is way off, in comparison. Usually, you will know immediately, when you let one get away. When shooting handgun groups at shorter ranges, it is nearly always shooter error, resulting from a momentary lack of concentration, whereas it could be the result of a wind gust on a long shot, or possibly a faulty charge on one round of ammo.


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## beretta9mm (Feb 13, 2012)

Bisley said:


> A flyer is the 'one that got away.'
> 
> All but the most experienced marksmen will "yank one" fairly often, when trying to shoot for groups, especially a 5 shot, or more, group. By that, I mean that you may shoot 4 out of 5 that are fairly close together, and one that is way off, in comparison. Usually, you will know immediately, when you let one get away. When shooting handgun groups at shorter ranges, it is nearly always shooter error, resulting from a momentary lack of concentration, whereas it could be the result of a wind gust on a long shot, or possibly a faulty charge on one round of ammo.


Ah... thanks. Most of my shots are flyers then LOL


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Bench rest the pistol? That in essence will take out as much human error as possible.


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