# Best SD hollowpoints for a 3" barrel?



## gilfo (Dec 5, 2007)

I have a CZ Rami which I use Hornaday 124 tap in. Just wondering if the Federal 147 HST might be better less recoil better penitration?
Any thoughts/comments.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Paging *submoa*!


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I'd stick with 124gr loads. The 147gr bullets don't get much acceleration coming out of a 3" barrel, and don't have much velocity. You could also try 115gr loads from Corbon...the 115gr +P DPX is a highly rated SD round. They kick pretty hard, but they're manstoppers. 115gr is for high velocity, 147gr adds a lot of momentum because of the added weight, and 124gr is a good medium between the two. Try firing both 115gr and 124gr loads in +P pressure ratings, and see which ones feed/cycle reliably. If both loads work, pick the one that you feel most comfortable with. That might be based on recoil, accuracy, or whatever, but pick the one YOU feel the best about. The most important part of a defensive handgun is being confident in your equipment. So far, I feel the most confident in the Corbon DPX 185gr +P (in .45 auto). So that's what I keep it loaded with.


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## cupsz71 (Nov 19, 2007)

K posted this on another forum heading (_no idea how to redirect to it_) 
Anyways, it was in response to another member's question concerning my comment on an article I'd read about best SD hollowpoints in 9mm. I found the article and summarized the author's findings to clarify:

......(_read soooo much stuff it's all becomming a blurrr)_

Anyways,

I omitted the intro, but he's basically taking about how popular 9mm SC have become and how good they are. And he goes on to compare barrel lengths in GLOCKS... a 17 being full sized......19 being compact......26 being sub-compact etc....

The ammo he's providing info on:
Carbon 115 DPX JHP
Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr +P+ JHP
Winchester 147gr JHP
Winchester 147gr SXT JHP

....not sure where he gets the rest of his ammo info.....not documented or listed.......

COMBAT HANDGUNS - June08'
By: Chuck Taylor - "Best Loads for Mini-9s"

*Muzzle Velocities*

"_This means that muzzle velocities are also substantially reduced, making JHP expansion less that optimum. Let's take the new Springfield Armory XD-9 series as a further example. The "Tactial" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of a "standard" model mesures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzel velocity by a full 40 percent.
Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 FPS from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 FPS. While it narrows the field of which bullets will or will not expand, it isn't a disaster by any means. Even at 1120 FPS, several loads will have at least some expansion.
However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 FPS. 
Suddenly, our presumption of substantial JHP expansion is no longer valid. In fact, at 840 FPS, with most JHP's any degree of expansion would be exceptional. And that is what the small 9mm and .38 Special snub have in common: muzzle velocities reduced to the point where, more often that not, JHP expansion cannot be expected.
Even with the 4-inch compact, many 9mm JHP's don't reliably upset in ballistic gellatin. For this reason, the 147-grain loads should catigorically be avoided. Only rarely to they break 950 FPS from a 4-inch barrel, so while they're highly accuarate and usually shoot to point-of-aim at 25 meters, bullet expansion is, at best, negligible.
A 3-inch barreled sub-compacts gets even worse with velocities in the 800 FPS range being common. If the JHP won't expand at 950 FPS, it certainly won't expand at 800 FPS, so once again the 147-grainers should be disqualified from consideration."_

He goes on.....

*Loads that Work*

"_One load that shoots exceptionally well and demonstrates good expansion from a 4-inch compact is *Hornaday's TAP 124-grain JHP*. Utilizing their excellent XTP bullet, accuracy, functional reliability, low muzzel flash and good terminal ballistic performance are all achievable with this load. For these reasons, the 124-grain TAP has become popular and prolific police service load. Another notable performer in a 4-inch barreled compact is *Winchester's Ranger SXT 127-grain +P+ J*HP. It, too, is a popular police load and is highly sought-after by civilians as well.

MORE......

Clearly, the 3-inch sub-compact 9mm in the version that limits ammunition the most, so careful testing is required to determine which loads perform well, or at least satisfactorily in it. After years of investigation, I've found only 2 loads that meet this criterion.
First is *CarBon's 115-grain DPX JHP*, utilizing the supurb Barnes-X JHP bullet. Superbly designed, it features a solid copper bullet with 6 "petals" that begin to peel back with only minimal hydraulic "push" in the hollow cavity. Even at the low velocities produced from a 3-inch barrel, the result is a surprisingly uniform "ceiling fan" effect as the petals react, thus transmitting maximum energy (and shock) to the target producing the largest possible wound channel.
The second 9mm load that performs in a sub-compact in the *Glaser Blue*. Weighing a mere 88 grains, it features a frangible bullet jacket with a hard rubbrer nose-plug, within are suspended a quantity of chilled lead shot. When the bullet impacts, the hard rubber plug is driven backwards, rupturing the jacket and releasing the shot pellets, causing immediate energy release into the target and a terrific wound channel."

"In summary, compact & sub-compact 9mm pistols are not only here to stay, but continue to increase in popularity. They're easy to shoot, more than sufficiently accurate for any tactical purpose and minimally inconvienient to conceal. In addition, they're controlable, utilize a relatively large capacity magazine (a popular issue with many shooters) and require no special maintenance or special holsters. As such, they offer much to anyone who has need of their lightweight and small size.
However, this being said, they can achieve even better performance if you carefully select ammunition you intend to use in them. All ammo isn't the same and the high speed, life-and-death environment inherent to the combat handgun confrontation demands that we give ourselves every advantage."_

ow...my hands hurt.

Shot placement and accuracy on target are just as important IMO as caliber choice. I have no plans to change my choice in Defensive ammo (_Federal Hydra Shok 135grn JHP 9mm_) at this point.

It was good read though.:smt023


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

First, any bullet that makes a hit is infinitely more worthy for self defence than one that misses. Expensive equipment and exotic bullets will not compensate for lack of skill.



> 2/7/2008
> Winchester® Ammunition is proud to announce that it recently was awarded a second contract to service the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). In addition to its contract with the FBI to supply 40 Smith & Wesson loads, Winchester Ammunition will also supply 9mm Luger ammunition.
> 
> The new 9mm Luger contract is worth a maximum of $54 million, and the two contracts combined will be worth a maximum of $108 million over five years - the largest ammunition contracts in the history of federal law enforcement.
> ...


http://www.winchester.com/news/newsv...px?storyid=229

On 11 April 1986, an FBI rolling stakeout squad got shot to pieces in Miami by a mortally-wounded bank robber, all within the four minutes between receiving a "non-survivable, potentially fatal wound" (actual "cop-speak") from a Winchester 115-grain Silvertip, and the application of a headshot with a 158-grain 38 Special +P round.

For mostly political reasons, in September 1987, the FBI convened and facilitated its first "Wound Ballistics Seminar" at Quantico, Virginia, during which Colonel Martin L. Fackler, M.D., U.S.A., then at the Army's Letterman Institute/Presidio, delivered his seminal position paper which essentially stated that "penetration is everything" in the matter of effective wounding with handgun projectiles, opining that the days of "light 'n' fast" rounds, championed by an earlier National Institute of Justice study, such as the 90-grain and 115-grain 9 X 19mm, 110-grain and 125-grain .38Special/.357 Magnum, and 185-grain .45 ACPs, were over if one was serious about taking a handgun to a lethal encounter.

From that Seminar emerged the buzzwords "penetration" and "subsonic," as well as the first skirmish in a war that endures today&#8230; the light 'n' fast / Marshall-Sanow faction of empiricists, versus the heavy and deep / Fackler-IWBA faction of gelatin shooters (a/k/a "JellO-junkies").

Shortly after that 1987 seminar, the ammunition manufacturers, led by Winchester with its "OSM" round, all introduced 147-grain loadings in their 9 X 19mm cartridge lines, some even marketing their products as "subsonic."

*147gr hollowpoints has been the standard 9mm load for FBI ever since.*

*Interpreting Gelatin Results*

Comparing bullet ballistic results in gelatin are worthless unless the gelatin has been previously calibrated to a published standard. Always look for the 'calibrated' qualifier when evaluating statements about gelatin performance for a particular round and make sure that the same gun is used. For these reasons, comparing gelatin ballistic claims between different magazine articles, and even within a single magazine article may be meaningless.

In a SD situation, the BG will almost always be clothed. Likewise look for 'clothed' gelatin results for comparing bullet performance for self defense. Even through light t-shirt material, cloth often plugs the bullet cavity changing expansion characteristics through subsequent gelatin.

FBI protocols always use calibrated gelatin and evaluations always involve penetration through an initial barrier such as cloth first.

*Recoil*

147gr will have less felt recoil than 124gr bullets with standard SAMMI propellant levels. Shooting slow heavy rounds have less recoil than fast and light. In the real world, the small difference in recoil will not have meaning under stress.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

So... SubMOA...

If you HAD to carry a XD9SC as your only defensive weapon... and assuming the gun functioned well with EVERYTHING (which it does)...

What round would you put in the tube?

JW


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

JeffWard said:


> So... SubMOA...
> 
> If you HAD to carry a XD9SC as your only defensive weapon... and assuming the gun functioned well with EVERYTHING (which it does)...
> 
> ...


Any bullet that makes a hit is infinitely more worthy for self defence than one that misses.

Civilians can't get their hands on the 9x19 CBAP Velet ammunition that would be my preferred handgun round for dealing with BGs and Zombies

I buy any new stock brass cased, 147gr 9mm JHP, SAAMI spec propellant, quality name brand ammo: Winchester, Remington, Corbon, Black Hills, etc. In the end, what's on sale will make more difference for me. Just avoid Wolf - poor quality russian crap.

Your selection of a subcompact vs service sized gun will make a greater difference in terminal ballistics than your choice of 147gr. JHP ammo, just as how the sight radius will have a greater effect on accuracy at distance. Don't expect your handgun is a sniper rifle with one shot kill capability. Train to make shots count and bring enough ammo to put enough bullets in the BG to get the job done.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Giving me good excuse to burn up my 124gr Hydrashock collection.

I've come to the big 'n slow is better conclusion too. Hense my preference for 230gr .45ACP...

I guess I'll get my XD9SCs some 147's and shoot them side by side.

Re Accuracy? Could not agree more. That said I have STACKS of 1.5" to 2" groups with my XD9SC slow fire. Rapid fire... Lift, acquire front sight, squeeze again as fast as I can find it again... 4-6" at 7M... ALMOST as accurate as my XD45 4". I can keep a full 10 round mag in 5-6" in 4-5 seconds at 7M. That's MUCH better than most.

I understand the theory behind fast and light for sure, and I understand the advantages of full expansion... But between a .38 bullet expanded to .45 to .50, or a .38 bullet expanded to .40 to .45??? I'll take .40 and deeeeep. Through a jacket, through glass (my own car), and through a light door...

We'll see what the recoil feels like. After shooting LOTS of .45 ACP from a 4" poly gun, I'm not sure there is a 9mm on the planet that will be "hard to shoot".

JW


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