# Getting a Grip on My Grip



## wazmo

Although I'm not new to firearms, I've recently come to realize that I'm definitely doing something wrong with my grip.

No matter the caliber that I own (.22, 9, .40, .45), my shots tend to go to the left, as a group, usually about 3-4 inches. Yes, I can adjust some of my guns’ sights, but I'm thinking that's just jury rigging a bigger problem.

Yesterday, I was firing a new handgun that has a great reputation: an H&K P2000sk. While I don't expect (or want) match level accuracy from a defensive carry gun, there were two things I noticed while firing it:

1. As a group, my shots are going left about 3-4 inches. In the case of yesterday's trial, this was at about 20 ft.

2. While all my shots went off without a hitch using Federal 180gr. solid nose, without any failure to feed, etc., there were three times when the slide failed to lock back after the last shot. Not part of the H&K reputation.

That second point is telling me that I'm probably limp-wristing my shots. Possibly the cause of my left-drifting shots, as well.

So, my question is this:

Any pointers on holding the handgun to provide a more solid platform without resorting to muscling the grip? Some notes:

1. I use a two-thumbs forward technique (if there is a formal name for it, I'm not aware of it) which I feel very comfortable and solid with. I’d rather not abandon it.

2. When I look at videos of other, most likely, experienced shooters, I usually notice very little upward flip due to recoil, taking into consideration the caliber they are using. I have the feeling that if I were to video tape myself shooting, my gun would show a higher flip on recoil (not sure...I never taped myself).

3. My hand's webbing is up high (can't help it anyway on the '2000).

4. My arms are out forward, locked.

5. I'm slightly leaning forward with solid footing.

6. I'm not recoil shy, having loved my .45 for a very long time, so that's not a problem for me.

7. My H&K P2000sk is a .40, which doesn't bother me a bit but I'm thinking the limp-wristing is causing cycling problems, resulting in failure to lock after the last shot and shots going off mark to the left.

8. I'm confident my fundamentals are good. I'm really good with rifles and even teach rifle marksmanship for a national marksmanship program. So, I feel that things like NPOA, site picture, etc. are not the problem in this case.

9. I tried sand-bagging the gun yesterday to get a benchmark accuracy test and it performed beautifully.

10. When I grip the gun tighter, the muzzle shakes. There has to be a better technique to tighten up the gun without muscling it.

So, the problem is with my hands/hold. Maybe I’m just too much of a girly-man for my own good?

Any thought/opinions are appreciated.


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## VAMarine

wazmo said:


> Although I'm not new to firearms, I've recently come to realize that I'm definitely doing something wrong with my grip.
> 
> *No matter the caliber that I own (.22,* 9, .40, .45),* my shots tend to go to the left,* as a group, usually about 3-4 inches. Yes, I can adjust some of my guns' sights, but I'm thinking that's just jury rigging a bigger problem.


I would wager it's not your grip but your trigger control. Throwing shots left with a .22 is not a grip problem.



> Yesterday, I was firing a new handgun that has a great reputation: an H&K P2000sk. While I don't expect (or want) match level accuracy from a defensive carry gun, there were two things I noticed while firing it:
> 
> 1. As a group, my shots are going left about 3-4 inches. In the case of yesterday's trial, this was at about 20 ft.
> 
> 2. While all my shots went off without a hitch using Federal 180gr. solid nose, *without any failure to feed,* etc., there were three times when the slide failed to lock back after the last shot. Not part of the H&K reputation.
> 
> That second point is telling me that I'm probably limp-wristing my shots. Possibly the cause of my left-drifting shots, as well.


Again, trigger control, trigger control, trigger control. What variant is the P2000SK? LEM or DA/SA? Regarding the slide not locking back, I would also guess that your support hand is riding the slide stop lever. If the gun is feeding properly, I doubt you are limp wristing.



> So, my question is this:
> 
> Any pointers on holding the handgun to provide a more solid platform without resorting to muscling the grip? Some notes:
> 
> 1. I use a two-thumbs forward technique (if there is a formal name for it, I'm not aware of it) which I feel very comfortable and solid with. I'd rather not abandon it.
> 
> 2. When I look at videos of other, most likely, experienced shooters, I usually notice very little upward flip due to recoil, taking into consideration the caliber they are using. I have the feeling that if I were to video tape myself shooting, my gun would show a higher flip on recoil (not sure...I never taped myself).
> 
> 3. My hand's webbing is up high (can't help it anyway on the '2000).
> 
> 4. My arms are out forward, locked.
> 
> 5. I'm slightly leaning forward with solid footing.


Sounds good to me. Regarding #2, they work very, very hard to get to that point.



> 6. I'm not recoil shy, having loved my .45 for a very long time, so that's not a problem for me.


Says you. The .45 and .40 are two totally different animals, especially in a gun the size of the SK.


> 7. My H&K P2000sk is a .40, which doesn't bother me a bit but I'm thinking the limp-wristing is causing cycling problems, resulting in failure to lock after the last shot and shots going off mark to the left.


What cycling problems? Failure to lock open on empty is not a cycling problem as there is nothing to cycle. Again, trigger control is probably the cause of the shots going left and you're probably riding the slide stop causing it to intermittently fail to lock. As for the .40, it's snappier than a .45 and in the SK it's going to be a handful. A lot of shooters, even experienced shooters develop a flinch shooting sub-compact .40s.



> 8. I'm confident my fundamentals are good. I'm really good with rifles and even teach rifle marksmanship for a national marksmanship program. So, I feel that things like NPOA, site picture, etc. are not the problem in this case.


Have I mentioned trigger control? That being said, I don't know how many rifle experts I've met that can't shoot a pistol worth a darn. Rifles and handguns are totally different items. Just look at the points of contact with a rifle. Forearm, grip, cheek weld, stock/shoulder etc. Not to mention a HUGE sight radius etc. All those things help shooting accurately with a rifle and it's all gone with a pistol. That's why trigger control is huge with pistol shooting.



> 9. I tried sand-bagging the gun yesterday to get a benchmark accuracy test and it performed beautifully.


This is common, and I'm glad to see that you did this before posting here. What bench resting does really well, is allow the shooter to focus on.....

You guessed it. TRIGGER CONTROL.



> 10. When I grip the gun tighter, the muzzle shakes. There has to be a better technique to tighten up the gun without muscling it.
> 
> So, the problem is with my hands/hold. Maybe I'm just too much of a girly-man for my own good?
> 
> Any thought/opinions are appreciated.


Like I said, hands is part of it regarding the lack of slide lock. Shoot the gun one hand only so there's no support hand to contact the slide stop and see if problems persist. Or, you can take a pen or something and ink the slide stop, if you come away with a ton of ink on your support hand, it's probably riding the slide stop.

For trigger control, do a lot of dry fire practice and some *ball and dummy drills* while at the range.

Kudos on not blaming the gun and looking at yourself to see what the issue is and good job taking the gun to a rest, not a lot of people do either one of those prior to asking how to "fix the gun"


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## Steve M1911A1

Gripping a pistol with such force that the muzzle shakes is a _good_ thing!
At defensive-pistol-shooting distances, that shake will not affect your shot placement.
It's less of a shake than you think it is.

Of you use a two-hand technique, there should be oppositional force, one hand against the other.
While the master hand pushes forward, toward the target, the support hand should be pulling back, trapping the pistol between your hands.
(In the ads on the back pages of so many comic books of the '40s and '50s, this was called "Dynamic Tension," and was guaranteed to build rippling muscles.)
Doing this causes some shake, but the oppositional forces involved damp out most of it, and keep it from significantly affecting your aim.

If you were NRA-style bullseye shooting, you wouldn't want this shake at all.
But in self-defense, practical shooting, it actually helps, since it indicates proper stabilization of the gun.


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## rex

Great post by VA.That HK is a very accurate peice and there are few reliability problems with them.

On the trigger,where is your finger?Too much on a right right handed person will pull shots left and using the tip will pull right.I'm surprised you didn't say low also.alot of people initially shoot HKs low.There's a chart around here somewhere that describes grip/trigger and where your shots will go but I'm too computer stupid to attach things in a post.

Which grip are you using.The old grip was a push/pull.Your strong hand gripped the gun and you pushed it into the support hand pulling back.It's a fine grip but doesn't lend itself well to a high hold with thumbs foward.

The other grip is a squeeze that came about in the 90's by Todd Gerrett I believe.Using the high thumbs opens up more grip room for support,so grip the gun as normal squeezing front to back.When you bring your support hand in it goes as high as possible for maximum contact,and may break the wrist down compared to the push/pull.Instead of pulling,you squeeze the grips together.There is more grip pressure applied to the support hand than the strong,in the neighborhood of 60/40 or more.

Since you're using the high thumbs,try the squeeze if you aren't,it may help.Pay attention to your strong hand grip also,the more pressure you use on it the more control of your trigger finger you lose.As VA said,pay attention to the weak thumb too,the high thumb hold puts you right there at the slide stop.I've always shot different platforms so I never went to the high thumbs,without a safety to ride it's too easy to ride the slide or a revolver cylender latch beat your thumb up.


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## Steve M1911A1

rex said:


> ...The other grip is a squeeze that came about in the 90's by Todd Gerrett I believe.Using the high thumbs opens up more grip room for support,so grip the gun as normal squeezing front to back.When you bring your support hand in it goes as high as possible for maximum contact,and may break the wrist down compared to the push/pull.Instead of pulling,you squeeze the grips together.There is more grip pressure applied to the support hand than the strong,in the neighborhood of 60/40 or more...


Hmmm...
I dunno whether *wazmo* is going to try this, but I certainly am!
Thanks, *rex*.


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## rex

No problem.God I type slow,your post wasn't there when I posted.

If I recall the story right,Rob Leatham was with him when he tried this grip.I don't recall if Rob took to it or not but Rob used to hold the gun until it shook and backed off just enough to steady it.


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## wazmo

Thanks, folks, for the quick responses.

Well, I went to the range yesterday afternoon to try out some of the suggestions you all mentioned. This was all at 20 ft or so with the same Fedral 180gr that I mentioned above.

I paid a lot more attention to my trigger control, making sure I pulled smoothly straight back and not to 'pivot' my finger in any way, or snatching, etc. Only the pad of my finger on the trigger. Grip was fairly tight: at least enough to see a bit of shaking but not too bad. I pushed with my trigger hand and pulled with my support. This did make a big difference. Not perfect, but my groups got a lot closer... averaging about an inch or so to the left. Not bad for right now and practice will improve on that.

Unfortunately, the slide is still not locking back after the last round on many of my groups. I prepped my mag with 5 rounds and I made sure I counted the shots, making sure I knew that I was about to fire the last shot. I then made real sure I had my fingers and other parts of the hand away from the slide, the words of VAMarine above ringing in my brain.

Still, some failures to lock. I only fired four groups of five for a total of 20 rounds yesterday but 3 of the 4 groups failed to lock.

If the firearm is cycling okay, then I assume it is not a gun issue. Maybe a mag issue? I did only try one mag out of the three the gun came with, although I'm not convinced this is the problem either. The gun is brand new, so maybe it's too tight right now? But, no, because it is cycling okay. I haven't shot enough rounds through the thing to blame it on a dirty weapon. I still think I'm doing something wrong.

The recoil doesn't feel that bad to me and was really impressed when the gun dealer allowed me to test fire it at his range before I bought it (I was considering the 9mm version at first). I think there were some posts somewhere on this forum by some who thought the .40 P2000sk might be a bit too snappy. I was pleasantly surprised that I didn't find it to be...for me at least. I remember firing a Kahr .38 a few years back that felt a lot snappier than this .40 H&K.

BTW: in answer to some other questions, the gun is a V3... DA/SA and the grip is the medium size one. Yes, the center of the pad of my trigger finger reaches comfortably to the trigger and my palm wraps naturally around the grip. I don't think gun fit is the issue here.

Any other ideas? Again, thanks.


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## Steve M1911A1

If the slide-release problem continues after you've fired between 300 and 500 rounds through it, I would consult either H&K or a good pistolsmith.
(You have cleaned off all of the manufacturer's rust-preventative grease, haven't you?)
Sometimes, yes, it's just a break-in issue.


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## wazmo

My current theory, which I'm yet to experiment with at the range, is this: the p2000sk has a fairly large (long) slide release. I wonder if I'm not just riding it with my thumbs (thumbs forward grip, remember?) and on last shot, as the gun flips up on recoil, the thumbs hold the slide release, flipping it down (actually keeping it in place) in one movement as the gun itself goes up. Maybe the last shot not locking up is because I'm actually accidentally releasing the slide as I hold it during recoil.

I'll experiment with holding the gun with thumbs crossed, lower on the grips.


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## VAMarine

wazmo said:


> My current theory, which I'm yet to experiment with at the range, is this: the p2000sk has a fairly large (long) slide release. I wonder if I'm not just riding it with my thumbs (thumbs forward grip, remember?) and on last shot, as the gun flips up on recoil, the thumbs hold the slide release, flipping it down (actually keeping it in place) in one movement as the gun itself goes up. Maybe the last shot not locking up is because I'm actually accidentally releasing the slide as I hold it during recoil.
> 
> I'll experiment with holding the gun with thumbs crossed, lower on the grips.


Yeah, that's what I was trying to convey.

Shoot the gun one handed. That will remove the support hand thumb from the equation, or shoot with a high thumbs grip.










See how her thumb is up and away from the slide? Try something similar to that AFTER shooting one handed. If the slide locks back shooting one handed, you know it's probably you and not the gun. Look at your grip and see if you can position your left thumb so that it's not coming close to the slide stop lever. Also try your other magazines.


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## wazmo

I'll give this grip a try. Is her left thumb actually away from the gun? Not touching it? Any part of the thumb touching, like the lower, meaty part of the thumb by the palm?


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## VAMarine

wazmo said:


> I'll give this grip a try. Is her left thumb actually away from the gun? Not touching it? Any part of the thumb touching, like the lower, meaty part of the thumb by the palm?


The thumb can make some contact with the slide...

take the gun by the slide, holding it with your left hand, grip pointing to your right. Drive the web of your right hand as high up the back strap of the gun as you can and then wrap your fingers around the grip, making sure the mid section of your fingers (*Middle phalanx) *is what is making contact on the front strap of the gun. Once the gun if firmly gripped, take your left and hand start wrapping it around your right hand, starting with your finger tips, with your thumb in a thumbs up position (think *Fonzy** *) as your wrapping your left hand around, watch for placement of your thumb and keep it to the rear of your slide stop.

There's a* slimmer slide stop lever* for the HKP2000 & SK, HK45/45C and P30 variants, but they are hard to find. I just got one dropped off yesterday and will take some pictures of the standard vs. the slim later.

If you find that the Fonzy grip works to cure the failure to lock open, but want to keep the thumbs forward or "competition grip", the slim slide stop may be a hardware fix.

If you can't get a slim set of levers, you can have the current slide stop ground down and refinished to the same dimensions of the slim slide stop.


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## wazmo

Thanks, VA... I'l give it a try this week (Wednesday is the soonest I can make it to the range). BTW: is that you in the picture, black shirt?


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## VAMarine

wazmo said:


> Thanks, VA... I'l give it a try this week (Wednesday is the soonest I can make it to the range). BTW: is that you in the picture, black shirt?


LOL! No, that's *David Bowie*, I'm the scruffy bastid' in the green shirt. My wife is the shooter. The picture was taken during some down time @ *TDI's Partner Tactics Course*, we were taking shots @ a bowling pin around 30-35 yards.


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## rex

Wazmo,does the slide lock back on an empty mag normally when not shooting?This problem happens on 1911s quite often.If it is locking back look to see if there's a good bit of contact between the follower and slide stop.There should be,but until you get the thumbs out of the equasion you won't know if it's gun related.Also,is your slide stop walking out on you?It should click in place and stay there, there's a spring in there somewhere that puts pressure on it to keep it in place.If that spring isn't in just right the stop can walk out a little while shooting.Someone recently had this problem on another forum,if it walks out enough the follower has nothing to grab.


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## dondavis3

I agree with VAMarine

Here is a good graphic of the usual trigger control issues we all can have.










This isn't my graphic, but it's a good one.

:smt1099


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## VAMarine

Here's a thread onHKPro re3garding the slim levers:

"Slim" slide stop levers for HK P2000 SK (and HK P2000)

They almost disappear on my HK45


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## wazmo

EPILOG:

Okay, I finally made it to the range today and tried modifying my grip...one based on the image of VAmarine's wife above. I found, though, that in my case I needed to switch my thumbs around from how it's shown above. In my case, I had my right hand thumb under my left, since doing it as above, my left thumb was still riding the slide release. So, my right thumb was under the slide release with the left above it.

I then prepped one round in the magazine and loaded that, simulating the last round. I did that twenty times (twenty rounds). In all twenty shots, I found the following:

1. The slide never failed to lock back for all 20 rounds. So, I'm going to assume that the previous failures to lock were as a result of my thumb riding the slide release on last shot. _Problem solved._
2. As a benefit, the remaining small 1-2 inch left drifting hits have now all gone to point of aim. Apparently, this grip agrees with me in that the left thumb is now providing more support...at least towards the right. _Problem solved here, too._

Thanks to all who helped, especially you, VAmarine. Give a special thanks to your wife for me, too, although I'm sure she won't know what the heck that's all about. ;-)


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## VAMarine

wazmo said:


> Thanks to all who helped, especially you, VAmarine. Give a special thanks to your wife for me, too, although I'm sure she won't know what the heck that's all about. ;-)


You're quite welcome! :smt1099


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## rex

Glad you got everything worked out.


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## VAMarine

Wazmo,

Just a heads up, the the s*lim slide release levers are back in stock @ HkParts.net*, they aren't cheap, but they do help reduce the slide not locking open on empty.

Might want to give them a try.


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## wazmo

Excellent, VA... Appreciate the suggestion. Bookmarked the site for other possible HK stuff, too.


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## VAMarine

wazmo said:


> Excellent, VA... Appreciate the suggestion. Bookmarked the site for other possible HK stuff, too.


:smt1099


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