# Should some type of charges be bought up aganist this guy



## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

_I read this from a Frontsite news letter and agree with their findings. This guy had no right to pull his gun if his or others were not in emdeate danger. These non-professionals are giving us a bad name when they try to play John Wayne. When I was in the food business I always told the cashiers to hand all the money over as quickly as possible so the person would leave. There is not enough money to risk your lifes or others. I think he should lose his CCW at least._

*Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup*

A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.
BY ROBERT SAMUELS
[email protected]
An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.
The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.
The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.
A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun - and the two exchanged gunfire.
The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.
The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.
Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.
"I just hope all my people are OK inside," said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. "It is scary."
Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.
The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood - featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

I knew this was not a Front Sight student because a Front Sight student would know better than to make such glaring mistakes.
In a robbery, you maintain a low profile by keeping your mouth shut, your eyes open, and position yourself for a quick clean shot. If it appears that nobody is going to get hurt, you let the robber take the money and exit the building. You then keep your distance while keeping your eyes on him so you can be a good witness for the authorities who are on their way.
If at any time you reasonably believe that you or those around you are in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death, you present your concealed weapon and deliver fight stopping hits.
Routinely, Front Sight graduates can deliver two center of mass hits from a concealed holster at conversational distances in less than 2 seconds, which is well under the reaction time of someone intent on robbing a clerk.

Had a Front Sight student been in that Burger King, he would not have brought unnecessary attention to himself by confronting the robber or arguing about anything. He would have kept his mouth shut, slowly maneuvered into a position of safety or advantage and set a mental trigger as to what movement or action by the robber would result delivering two, sighted shots to the robber's thoracic cavity in about 1.5 seconds!
If the robber did not display the intent to injure anyone, then there would have been no gunfight. Burger King's insurance would have replaced the few hundred dollars that was stolen and the police would have apprehended the robber after running his license plate and description.
If the robber had shown intent to injure, then the result would have been an incapacitated robber with two or more holes in his chest- who didn't even see them coming.
Unfortunately, the CCW holder in this case was not Front Sight trained. Although heroic in his attempts, getting shot for hamburger money is not a good exchange in anyone's mind. He simply has never received the level of training we provide.
I wish the CCW holder had attended a course with us because the outcome would have been much different.
There is a reason why we provide a Four Day Defensive Handgun Course followed by a 30 State CCW course. It is because we want you trained to levels that exceed law enforcement and military standards so that when you have no choice but to use your weapon, the results are as they should be&#8230; you standing tall and unscathed and the bad guy piled up in a heap of his own body fluids.


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## macgulley (Mar 10, 2009)

spacedoggy said:


> _
> If at any time you reasonably believe that you or those around you are in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death, you present your concealed weapon and deliver fight stopping hits.
> _


_

I think it is reasonable to believe that someone pointing a handgun at someone else presents an immediate danger.
I agree that engaging in a verbal confrontation was probably not the best plan. No warning was necessary before acting to prevent the robber from harming others._


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

spacedoggy said:


> _I read this from a Frontsite news letter and agree with their findings. *This guy had no right to pull his gun if his or others were not in emdeate danger.* These non-professionals are giving us a bad name when they try to play John Wayne. When I was in the food business I always told the cashiers to hand all the money over as quickly as possible so the person would leave. There is not enough money to risk your lifes or others. I think he should lose his CCW at least._


I assume you were there, or it was recorded, or the stellar eye witnesses have total auditory recall. What if the robber said "Give me the cash. Hurry or I'll kill you" (what if'ing it to death, I know). There's no way to tell what transpired until some (if) video footage is released. They didn't mention what the robber was doing with the gun the whole time... was he swinging it around, was it pointed down at the ground, or did he have it pressed up against the cashiers head? All those things would change the overall perception of danger.


spacedoggy said:


> *Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup*
> 
> A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.
> BY ROBERT SAMUELS
> ...


Umm... What the hell is a potential robber? He entered the establishment with a gun and a mask and said gimme the money... I think that pretty much makes you a ROBBER! (Yes I realize this is from the article and not Spacedoggy's opinion)



spacedoggy said:


> I knew this was not a Front Sight student ...snip
> If at any time you reasonably believe that you or those around you are in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death, you present your concealed weapon and deliver fight stopping hits.
> Routinely, Front Sight graduates can deliver two center of mass hits from a concealed holster at conversational distances in less than 2 seconds, which is well under the reaction time of someone intent on robbing a clerk.


This part cracks me up. The perception of immediate danger of serious bodily injury or death is determined by who? A Frontsight instructor, who isn't there? As has been often said, perception is reality, and if the CCW permit holder "percieved" he or others were in immediate danger, then I'd say he did what he thought was right. Now, as to weather or not he did a good job of it, that can be debated, but who of us would have done better (or worse)?


spacedoggy said:


> Had a Front Sight student been in that Burger King, he would not have brought unnecessary attention to himself by confronting the robber or arguing about anything. He would have kept his mouth shut, slowly maneuvered into a position of safety or advantage and set a mental trigger as to what movement or action by the robber would result delivering two, sighted shots to the robber's thoracic cavity in about 1.5 seconds!


This is totally subjective on the authors part. Just because someone took their course and passed, doesn't mean they'll be able to perform as they did in a controlled environment, when they are confronted with real world "omg, I could die" kinda stress.



spacedoggy said:


> *If the robber did not display the intent to injure anyone, then there would have been no gunfight*.


I'd say that walking into a restaurant with your face covered and a gun in hand displays a wanton display of intent to injure someone.

No offense to Spacedoggy, but this article sounds like a bunch of HOOEY to sell some Defensive pistol classes.

Zhur


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

Lots of forum members covered this topic here:

http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=18829

As many have stated in the earlier thread, not all the details are out, but if they did go down in the manner the original article describes, I think the CCWer was justified in shooting a deadly threat.

I personally think the article does give the CCWer a bit of a tarnish by saying there was an "argument." It could have been as simple as him saying "FREEZE!" while drawing, followed by a "F YOU!" from the robber. One or two seconds later, shots are fired. Witnesses may have recalled yelling before the shots but whether or not there was an "argument" isn't exactly clear.

I'd love to get more details but I doubt that'll happen anytime soon. For now, my bottom line is a bad guy threatening lives with a gun = justified shoot in my book.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

In the humble opinion of someone on the internet who wasn't there: Seems to me that the guy was foolish, but justified. Very fortunate for the clerk who was in immediate danger, very costly for the shooter who just bought himself a world of trouble.


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## jeffreybehr (Feb 10, 2009)

How the hell are WE to determine what should happen to this guy? WE WEREN'T THERE!

Had I been there and IF--IF--IF what is stated above is all the impoortant info, I would have watched him leave while I got ready to punch 9-1-1.

BUT I WASN'T THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

Personally, I think the analysis by Front Site reads too much like a sales pitch for my taste. Taking an incident like this and turning it into a marketing ploy is behavior I find a bit disappointing. Like several others have said, a single new article, which is possibly biased against the CCW holder, is not nearly enough info.

I'm also somewhat surprised at the idea of pulling his CCW due to this incident, even assuming he did try to argue with the robber first. Seems to me to be in the same situation as a driver ignoring or not fully complying with one of those yellow recommended speed limit signs for a curve. It might be foolish, but it's not an offense you pull someone's license for. In the CCW case, intent to harm was established as soon as the robber brandished his weapon. I don't think there's any doubt he was within his rights to draw his weapon to protect himself and those around him, although the wisdom and timing may be questionable.

KG


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## Benevolentshooter (Mar 27, 2009)

So heres how i feel. The guy was stupid for the way he proceeded. The guy got shot several times and now knows exactly why he should not have reacted the way he did. But, did the guy do anything wrong,No. The Florida state law says that you can draw and use your gun to defend yourself or others when there is signifigant danger,OR and this is important, to stop someone in the commision of a felony. Armed robbery is a fellony last i checked, and workers and customers at gunpoint are in signifigant danger in my head. However i would have let the guy leave if possible. I am not wyatt earp and this aint the old west. All and all the guy sholud get to go home when he gets out of the hopital if all is as it apears to be, but i think this is a gleaming example of what not to do.
What was the name of this thread? Was it something like should this guy face charges or was it hey look how great my shooting school is. Really you can put an add in the yellow pages. :buttkick:


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## Benevolentshooter (Mar 27, 2009)

I just re read your post and i am now sure that i dont want to ever attend any classes you have to offer. You advocate moving around to a good position during a robbery. You implied a good witness would follow at a distance. You stated that your students could out gun a mere would be robber. So lets see here you move around during a robbery and he turns and says i told you to stay still then unloads on you and the crowd. You follow the robber after the event he notices you and there is a gunfight that you win only to go to prison afterward for murder, because you are not a cop and you cant just follow the guy and risk an armed confrontation. Now YOU are the aggressor creating a situation that was not neccessary. And finally you totaly under estimate the oponent. What if this crook is a cop or a guy who just got out of the millitary after two tours with the rangers over in afganistan. You have no idea what his training is or his motivation, but i guess 4 whole days at the range with you beats 18 weeks to a year of training in the millitary or le and a couple of years practical use of that training. I think one of your students is going to get killed if you teach what you have written, I hope you just miss spoke.


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## Chesty21 (Mar 14, 2009)

First no the CCW should not be charged with anything. The injuries and possible life long problems he will endure is punishment enough for any possible mis-action he might have taken. 

I will not go into what if it did not turn out as well as it did, which I believe that when a fire fight opens up in a public place and only the two people involved are injured that is something of a miracle. 

Finally I agree just because you take a course does not mean crap when the Sh*t hits the fan and for anyone to say if they only had this training it would have been different is the words most likely from someone who has never been in a life or death situation. Being a Marine I have seen men who excelled in training fold completely lose it under pressure. So training is good but sorry no school and no training is as good as the poster attempts to make his school sound with such blanket statements.

Finally the article is complete BS, the article was obviously written by someone who is against the right to bare arms. Hell the article almost had me passing a negative judgment on the CCW, but as others stated we were not there.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Benevolentshooter said:


> I just re read your post and i am now sure that i dont want to ever attend any classes you have to offer. You advocate moving around to a good position during a robbery. You implied a good witness would follow at a distance. You stated that your students could out gun a mere would be robber. So lets see here you move around during a robbery and he turns and says i told you to stay still then unloads on you and the crowd. You follow the robber after the event he notices you and there is a gunfight that you win only to go to prison afterward for murder, because you are not a cop and you cant just follow the guy and risk an armed confrontation. Now YOU are the aggressor creating a situation that was not neccessary. And finally you totaly under estimate the oponent. What if this crook is a cop or a guy who just got out of the millitary after two tours with the rangers over in afganistan. You have no idea what his training is or his motivation, but i guess 4 whole days at the range with you beats 18 weeks to a year of training in the millitary or le and a couple of years practical use of that training. I think one of your students is going to get killed if you teach what you have written, I hope you just miss spoke.


+1
Moving around during a robbery is a pretty easy way to get hurt or worse.


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## truman565 (Jun 27, 2007)

> This guy had no right to pull his gun if his or others were not in emdeate danger.


Like everyone else here, I was not there. You can read numerous articles on this and get different things from each. However I am assuming the robber pointed the gun at the clerk in which case that would justify danger. I am certain that even someone as supposedly badass as a Front Sight student would feel that he/she was in danger if a gun was being pointed at them.

Secondly, I think turning this story into a sales pitch is deplorable. The guy didn't do "insert questionable Front Sight teaching" so obviously he isn't a Front Sight grad and obviously isn't qualified to be a CCW. Please, and Mexico is right next to America so therefore all of these guns being used by the cartels obviously must e coming from America. Awesome skills of deduction.

The ego of the Front Sights author offends me and I will not be looking to them for training. Stand up marketing guys.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Benevolentshooter said:


> I just re read your post and i am now sure that i dont want to ever attend any classes you have to offer.


Just to clarify, I'm pretty sure the OP is not a Front Site instructor and was only posting what was written in a newsletter.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

I have to agree with the thought that a man entering a public establishment with a ski mask and a gun DOES, by itself, display an intent to harm! The only next step for him would be to actually pull the trigger. The idea of standing there and waiting for the situation to progress, isn't comprehendable to me.

Not that they form a basis for any thought process, but I've seen plenty of those 'caught on tape' shows where the armed robber, without any warning, just opens fire, even if all is going well in his favor. A firearm drawn on the store worker is display of an intent to shoot. 

Everyone will handle that situation differently, but remember- criminals aren't smart. Nor do they pass things through a logical thought process. Giving him time to do anything might be the worst decision you could make


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## Benevolentshooter (Mar 27, 2009)

Even if the guy had a knife it wouldnt make a diffrence Florida law allows for the use of force to stop a felony including rape, robbery, burglary ect. its written plainly in florida statute 790. He could be armed with a potatoe peeler and you still have the right to stop him with deadly force. If the perp is laying dead on the ground afterwards it will be hard for him to argue that he couldnt hurt anyone with a potatoe peeler. maybe the clerk is allergic to potatoes.:anim_lol:


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## undrgrnd (Jul 10, 2008)

did the situation go down like text book says it should. no. but how many situations when deadly force is justified are going to be textbook. should he have argued with the perp? probably not but he didn't think he was going to have to save innocent people because an idiot wanted to make some quick cash while he got his burger or nuggets. he did what was necessary and he ended up hurt. good thing is that the threat was eliminated the ccw holder should be ok and no one else was hurt. my .02


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

In the confusion afterward, one could propably run back there and make a couple whoppers... completely unnoticed!opcornsmilie


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## wjh2657 (Jun 18, 2008)

Can't pull his permit, Florida law says he was legal. I voted other however, because I wonder if it isn't bad judgement to draw a weapon in a fast food place (lots of little kids and scared civilians around who might get in the way)so I can't say, without being there, that he is a _hero_. If the other guy already has his gun drawn, I don't care if you are Wyatt Earp, you are in a bad situation. With all of the third prties around big chance that if you fire and just hurt BG, he will start spraying and hit some of the bystanders. Bottom line, I wasn't there so I don't really know the real situation, but I would reserve jumping in and saying this was the smart thing to do. 
What would I do? I don't know and won't know _until I am there_!


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## C-Kicks (Jan 29, 2009)

I dont belive all the facts are here. It is hard for me to belive a news story. I also do not know what I would have done if I was in his position. I am glad to see that there was only one injury annd the robber was killed.


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

I have to question the part of the story that reads "he showed his gun and demanded money". Does that mean he pulled his gun or did he open his shirt tail to show he had one tucked in his waistband? I can't imagine standing there and having an argument with a man that has a gun in his fist. That boggles my mind.


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## mikej997 (Jan 26, 2008)

tekhead1219 said:


> I have to question the part of the story that reads "he showed his gun and demanded money". Does that mean he pulled his gun or did he open his shirt tail to show he had one tucked in his waistband? I can't imagine standing there and having an argument with a man that has a gun in his fist. That boggles my mind.


+1 I don't understand that part of it either.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

No I was not there just an email I got. I've been in situtions like that but that's when I was an LEO. I don't want any unprofessional pulling his gun when shots have not been fired. If he really wants to shot someone then wait until he is outside. I have no idea what was going through his head and I wonder if he was thinking about bystanders...Took an FBI cource over thiry years ago and it taught me to wait until the person was not supecting you were coming and to wait until he is in an area where others would not be harmed. When I was an LEO and it looked like he was just going for the money I would of waited until he was outside. I know there are a bunch of unanswered questions here I just wanted to see people reactions. I have yet to read about a CCW shooting anyone by mistake, I'm sure it has happen but it's nice not to see it in the news. Now if the guy had his wife go in to get something and he saw what was going on I would not blame him for running in and taking the guy down. I would in a second. It all depends



zhurdan said:


> I assume you were there, or it was recorded, or the stellar eye witnesses have total auditory recall. What if the robber said "Give me the cash. Hurry or I'll kill you" (what if'ing it to death, I know). There's no way to tell what transpired until some (if) video footage is released. They didn't mention what the robber was doing with the gun the whole time... was he swinging it around, was it pointed down at the ground, or did he have it pressed up against the cashiers head? All those things would change the overall perception of danger.
> 
> Umm... What the hell is a potential robber? He entered the establishment with a gun and a mask and said gimme the money... I think that pretty much makes you a ROBBER! (Yes I realize this is from the article and not Spacedoggy's opinion)
> 
> ...


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

spacedoggy said:


> ... I don't want any unprofessional pulling his gun when shots have not been fired. ...


Could be too late by then. Seems to me that if a person threatens another with a firearm, they should expect to be shot.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

spacedoggy said:


> ... I don't want any unprofessional pulling his gun when shots have not been fired. ...


I'm not even going there...it's too easy...


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## macgulley (Mar 10, 2009)

I'll go there:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

All righty then. Now that we all agree we weren't there and will never know all the true facts, and since this topic has been beaten to death in two threads now, time to move on.


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