# I'm not a betting man...............



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

........but if I was, I would have bet a bundle on this exact outcome. Kudos to the jury for only taking three hours to get the job done.

Minnesota jury finds Byron Smith, 65, guilty of murdering two teen intruders - NY Daily News


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

What a tragedy. Justice is served, no doubt. There was absolutely no cause to kill those kids, especially given the fact that the homeowner more than likely knew they were just kids before he shot them. He could have easily held them until police arrived. However, if those kids had not broken into his home, they'd probably be alive today. How important is it to train your kids in the way they should go.


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## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

I'm sorry but those kids committed a crime, against a person. What should he have done? Served them ice cream :smt076

Shinning example of times the gene pool is self cleaning. Two career criminals stopped before they cause more hurt.:mrgreen:

The jury didn't want to be there, and were missing their favorite TV shows.:smt076


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

lefty60 said:


> I'm sorry but those kids committed a crime, against a person. What should he have done? Served them ice cream :smt076
> 
> Shinning example of times the gene pool is self cleaning. Two career criminals stopped before they cause more hurt.:mrgreen:
> 
> The jury didn't want to be there, and were missing their favorite TV shows.:smt076


I think not waiting a day before notifying anyone of the two dead unarmed kids would have been a good start in things to do.

Calling the cops before confronting them would be a close second.

Holding the m till police arrived would be a close third...


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

lefty60 said:


> I'm sorry but those kids committed a crime, against a person. What should he have done? Served them ice cream :smt076
> 
> Shinning example of times the gene pool is self cleaning. Two career criminals stopped before they cause more hurt.:mrgreen:
> 
> The jury didn't want to be there, and were missing their favorite TV shows.:smt076


Wow, just wow!

As hard as I tried to come to the same conclusion as you did, I could not. The defendant was wrong on so many different levels, I really don't even know where to start to discuss them. So.....I won't.

I got the impression that you are, or were, LE. I keep trying to twist my mind and thought process in different directions, but it doesn't do any good. I simply cannot come anywhere near to where you are in your opinion.

The defendant acted as judge, jury and executioner. In all my years as a cop, I never once thought of myself as being entitled to act as such, in any way, shape or form.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> I think not waiting a day before notifying anyone of the two dead unarmed kids would have been a good start in things to do.
> 
> Calling the cops before confronting them would be a close second.
> 
> Holding the m till police arrived would be a close third...


I agree, he was very well prepared and lying in wait. He purposely parked his vehicle away from view to give the impression no one was home. Set up audio and video cameras, stored food, weapons and ammunition. He had all the premeditated intention to kill the unarmed teens regardless of the circumstances and no intention to call the police.

If he would have called the police they probably would have caught the two teens red handed. Once the teens were incapacitated by multiple gun shots he still proceeded to execute them by coup de grâce shots. Way overboard in my opinion, especially being that the teens were unarmed and committing a crime against property not the person. However, 1st degree burglary is a very dangerous undertaking, but, this person in my mind was very irrational under the circumstances.


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## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Wow, just wow!
> 
> As hard as I tried to come to the same conclusion as you did, I could not. The defendant was wrong on so many different levels, I really don't even know where to start to discuss them. So.....I won't.
> 
> ...


You are correct on all of your points. Who really knows what actually went on. I can't help but think that the guy got done being scared and realized that he screwed up. Then didn't know what the heck to do.

I don't mean to be too harsh, but if those kids had not been bent on doing a crime, they might still be alive. I do believe that there is more than enough blame to go around. And of course we really don't know the whole story.

As a LEO my job, after the incident was to get as much information as possible (keeping my opinion to myself). Produce a complete report, make an arrest as required by laws and department policies. The arguing over details and additional or fewer charges. Was not my job or my place in the scheme of things. That was the job of the D.A.'s office. You know, "the facts and nothing but the facts"

Having said that, I have seen far to many young people go from break-ins to armed robberies and worse. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that there is a large number people that are scared to even leave their homes.

It is generally a sad thing when someone loses their life, especially a young person. As I said it appears to me that in this case there is plenty of wrong doing on both sides. Truth is we can only speculate.

Of course this is only my opinion and probably not worth the paper(?) that it's written on.

In closing, I feel bad for all of those (and their families) involved. Please remember there is probably more than two sides to this incident.

And yes I know that I can be a little(?) harsh at times.

Stay safe


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> What a tragedy. Justice is served, no doubt. There was absolutely no cause to kill those kids, especially given the fact that the homeowner more than likely knew they were just kids before he shot them. He could have easily held them until police arrived. However, if those kids had not broken into his home, they'd probably be alive today. How important is it to train your kids in the way they should go.


Age makes no difference if the perps are a threat to you. In some states, mine for one, when someone breaks into your home at night, they are classed as a burglar and since that is a felony crime, subject to a deadly response by the owner. While prudence should always dictate one's actions, the onus is on the perp where it belongs.

I well remember a case in Florida where a 13-year old killed a British tourist who stopped in a test stop along route 10. Three weeks before this happened, me and my family stopped in that same rest stop and took a nap for an hour in the middle of the night. Thirteen years old makes no difference when someone is armed and is a threat to you. You can bet my handgun was out and within quick access when we made that stop in '93.

Now this doesn't mean that I justify what this homeowner in the OP's link did.... I don't know enough about that case to make a judgement. As I understand, he went overboard with his response. I know little more so I will not argue for or against what he did.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

lefty60 said:


> I'm sorry but those kids committed a crime, against a person. What should he have done? Served them ice cream :smt076
> 
> Shinning example of times the gene pool is self cleaning. Two career criminals stopped before they cause more hurt.:mrgreen:
> 
> The jury didn't want to be there, and were missing their favorite TV shows.:smt076


While I do agree the kids committed a crime, I disagree altogether with your assessment. No, he should not have served them ice cream, but what this homeowner did was not only illegal, but it is sick. Evidently there had been multiple break ins b/c no one goes through the steps this guy did just to see if he can catch someone breaking into his house. This was in no way self defense. It was an ambush. There were several things he could have done besides killing them. I can tell you that killing is not a physical action, it's mental. For this man to go through the steps he did to ambush them, not tell anyone until the next day, and then liken the kids to vermin after it was in the legal system tells me he is a very definite danger to society. Had he confronted them and been attacked, ok sure, shoot them in self defense. But that clearly is not what he did. If they had awakened him from a dead sleep while he was on the couch and he shot them, ok, justifiable homicide. But this man methodically set a trap, and ambushed kids. I do not agree with it at all.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Age makes no difference if the perps are a threat to you. In some states, mine for one, when someone breaks into your home at night, they are classed as a burglar and since that is a felony crime, subject to a deadly response by the owner. While prudence should always dictate one's actions, the onus is on the perp where it belongs.
> 
> I well remember a case in Florida where a 13-year old killed a British tourist who stopped in a test stop along route 10. Three weeks before this happened, me and my family stopped in that same rest stop and took a nap for an hour in the middle of the night. Thirteen years old makes no difference when someone is armed and is a threat to you. You can bet my handgun was out and within quick access when we made that stop in '93.
> 
> Now this doesn't mean that I justify what this homeowner in the OP's link did.... I don't know enough about that case to make a judgement. As I understand, he went overboard with his response. I know little more so I will not argue for or against what he did.


I agree with you in that age makes no difference, and my initial thoughts were they deserved what they got for breaking in; however, once I learned what all this guy did to ambush them, I changed my mind. Like you, I do not know the full case file, but I will say this. If you take the time to set a trap like that, it indicates you had prior knowledge of something. What? I don't know, but when you ambush "kids" the way he did, in the public eye you're going to be guilty of murder, and I'm not sure I disagree. For me it really doesn't matter what the age is. I don't disagree with him setting up like he did. What I disagree with is the fact that he ambushed them and told no one about it until the next day. Why would you do that? That is my question. All that aside, the my point in the post you addressed was to child training. Sadly, these kids are dead b/c their parents failed to train them properly. It was never a thought in my mind to break into someone else's house like that, and it's sad that these kids are dead.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

denner said:


> I agree, he was very well prepared and lying in wait. He purposely parked his vehicle away from view to give the impression no one was home. Set up audio and video cameras, stored food, weapons and ammunition. He had all the premeditated intention to kill the unarmed teens regardless of the circumstances and no intention to call the police.
> 
> If he would have called the police they probably would have caught the two teens red handed. Once the teens were incapacitated by multiple gun shots he still proceeded to execute them by coup de grâce shots. Way overboard in my opinion, especially being that the teens were unarmed and committing a crime against property not the person. However, 1st degree burglary is a very dangerous undertaking, but, this person in my mind was very irrational under the circumstances.


Another point I agree with. I do not in any way condone the actions of these kids. Not at all! However, I certainly don't condone what this guy did. I believe in defending house and home all day long. But when you set a trap like he did, with a tarp to keep from getting blood on his carpet...set up audio...pack food and water to sustain yourself while you wait...how do you explain you were just defending yourself? No, this was premeditated. I would not be surprised if he knew who the kids were, but either way he set himself up for a first degree murder charge, and a jury convicted him for it.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Another point I agree with. I do not in any way condone the actions of these kids. Not at all! However, I certainly don't condone what this guy did. I believe in defending house and home all day long. But when you set a trap like he did, with a tarp to keep from getting blood on his carpet...set up audio...pack food and water to sustain yourself while you wait...how do you explain you were just defending yourself? No, this was premeditated. I would not be surprised if he knew who the kids were, but either way he set himself up for a first degree murder charge, and a jury convicted him for it.


Yes, you make good points here. I have heard some of what this guy did and it crosses the boundaries of a justifiable act. In my state, there are five felonies for which deadly force can be a response: burglary, robbery, murder, rape, and arson. These kids committed the first of these felonies but the owner's actions do tend to bring into question his actual innocence. As I understand it, his home had been broken into a number of times and he was just fed up with it. He could have taken other options I suppose and were it me, I would not do what he did. However, I would definitely have one of my guns on my person at all times with a number of others strategically hidden in my home.

I need to learn more about what transpired with this incident.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Yes, you make good points here. I have heard some of what this guy did and it crosses the boundaries of a justifiable act. In my state, there are five felonies for which deadly force can be a response: burglary, robbery, murder, rape, and arson. These kids committed the first of these felonies but the owner's actions do tend to bring into question his actual innocence. As I understand it, his home had been broken into a number of times and he was just fed up with it. He could have taken other options I suppose and were it me, I would not do what he did. However, I would definitely have one of my guns on my person at all times with a number of others strategically hidden in my home.
> 
> I need to learn more about what transpired with this incident.


Exactly right! I did not disagree with anything he did, until he killed the intruders without cause for actual self defense. I think the things that got him convicted was the fact he had audio, which gave proof he wasn't in any real danger at the time he pulled the trigger, and the fact that he didn't tell anyone. I don't blame him for setting a trap to catch them in the act. I don't disagree with his frustration. I would not have gone to the extent he did, but there was nothing wrong with setting a trap. Just not an ambush to kill.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

It was disclosed that at one time (a few years ago) the male intruder had worked for the defendant, doing such things as yard work around his home. Someone working within the investigation suggested that the male intruder had done so in order to case his house. 

And, it was reported that the female had been shot numerous times, but did not die immediately. The defendant then drug her into another room, put the firearm's muzzle up to and under her chin, and fired one more time to finish her off. 

I didn't follow this case day by day, nor did I do anything out of the ordinary to keep up on it. But, from what was disclosed, it wasn't much of a challenge for me to come to the conclusion that I did. 

The defendant was obviously a very disturbed person, having done what he did, and respond in such a way, that it boggles the mind of a "normal" person.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah, I don't hesitate to support anyone's right to defend their life and home against any enemy, but you can go too far. Even if the law justifies your actions, you will pay for it at some point. I don't know many people who can live with themselves although I know the world is full of those who can, but the fact is people like this man need to be prosecuted. While we do have the right to defense, there is a line somewhere. There has to be!


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## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

After reading the additional information, I can only add that It would appear that everyone involved committed "moral and legal" crimes.

In my not so humble opinion the whole thing should NOT have happened. Maybe some folks will learn from this, maybe not.

I am positive that the pain and suffering caused by this event (at least for family and friends) will last for a good long time. 

As to how to stop this kind of tragedy, laws and moral values seem to not have been of use in this case.

Who knows for sure?


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

lefty60 said:


> After reading the additional information, I can only add that It would appear that everyone involved committed "moral and legal" crimes.
> 
> In my not so humble opinion the whole thing should NOT have happened. Maybe some folks will learn from this, maybe not.
> 
> ...


Agreed. In my initial post I stated that it was a tragedy mainly b/c the kids were killed due to a lack of training. Child training has to begin immediately, and if done right it will prevent kids from doing the things these did to put themselves in positions to be killed. Terribly sad.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I know families that did their absolute best to raise their children in such a way as to be an asset to society and not a liability. Even then, I know of several kids that still took it upon themselves to go their own way and choose a life of crime. 

At some point, parents have done all they can to insure good morals in their children. They can no longer do anything to prevent their off-spring from going down the wrong path. 

I'm a huge proponent of individual responsibility. I've always been so and it dates way back to when I was a young child. I made minor mistakes as I grew up and paid for them in a way that was acceptable to my parents and society. I never once blamed my parents for what I did. And.....I learned from each and every mistake I made. 

Some people just have a propensity to be evil to some degree or another. It's embedded in their brain for whatever reason. Sooner or later, it will play a part in the decision making process on whether or not they will live to a ripe old age. 

Life is enough of a risk just being an honest person. It only gets more complicated and challenging by those who are not.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

paratrooper said:


> I know families that did their absolute best to raise their children in such a way as to be an asset to society and not a liability. Even then, I know of several kids that still took it upon themselves to go their own way and choose a life of crime.
> 
> At some point, parents have done all they can to insure good morals in their children. They can no longer do anything to prevent their off-spring from going down the wrong path.
> 
> ...


We think a lot alike. I am also a strong proponent of individual responsibility. I have also known families with several children where one was just into everything. The rest were fine. But the one problem kid just could not keep his nose clean. I have also known a lot of families where the parents wanted to "give their children space, freedom to express themselves, and honor their privacy". Boy is that a recipe for disaster and there is proof of both of these examples in my own neighborhood. Doing this may make the parent feel good about themselves but it is not going to raise responsible citizens. Let's face it. Some people are just born bad. It's a fact of life.

Parents need to be very nosy and know as much as possible about their kids and their kids' friends. "You shall be known by the company you keep" and "show me your friends and I'll show you your future" are lessons that are time tested and universal. When you look at my daughters you will see responsible, law abiding, and productive adults. We did the work and the results are proof positive of our efforts.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> I know families that did their absolute best to raise their children in such a way as to be an asset to society and not a liability. Even then, I know of several kids that still took it upon themselves to go their own way and choose a life of crime.
> 
> At some point, parents have done all they can to insure good morals in their children. They can no longer do anything to prevent their off-spring from going down the wrong path.
> 
> ...


I know and agree. I made my fair share of idiotic choices as a kid and am grateful to be alive. I firmly believe in individual accountability. Unfortunately that is not something I believe most parents instill these days. Everybody wants to have choices and freedom of speech, but no one wants to be accountable for their choices. That's the society in which we live, and it is our own fault. Everybody is a victim. There is absolutely no excuse for those kids being killed. Not from them, not from the one who shot them. Now how many kids do these things compared to those who do not? I'm not talking about your career criminals, but kids like these, who looked to be very well cared for, everyday average kids. I dare say the per enrage is small. Unfortunately not many will take note. Hopefully they do, but for the love of God, parents...teach your kids. Stop trying to be a friend, set stamdards, be the standard and make them mind. It's ok if they get mad. They'll get over it! The alternative is what you see here.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> I know and agree. I made my fair share of idiotic choices as a kid and am grateful to be alive. I firmly believe in individual accountability. Unfortunately that is not something I believe most parents instill these days. Everybody wants to have choices and freedom of speech, but no one wants to be accountable for their choices. That's the society in which we live, and it is our own fault. Everybody is a victim. There is absolutely no excuse for those kids being killed. Not from them, not from the one who shot them. Now how many kids do these things compared to those who do not? I'm not talking about your career criminals, but kids like these, who looked to be very well cared for, everyday average kids. I dare say the per enrage is small. Unfortunately not many will take note. Hopefully they do, but for the love of God, parents...teach your kids. Stop trying to be a friend, set stamdards, be the standard and make them mind. It's ok if they get mad. They'll get over it! The alternative is what you see here.


That's something important enough to high-light, that I forgot to include. In this day and age, parents want to be thought of as cool and hip, and friends to their children. Your first responsibility to your own child, is to be a parent. You need to set standards and enforce them accordingly. These days, kids aren't respectful to adults, let alone their own parents. Kids are savvy in ways that they should not be. They are street-smart and pretty much know that if they get in trouble, their friends (parents) will bail them out.

And.....while I'm at it, what's up with school graduation ceremonies with kids from the 1st grade and up anymore? A few years ago, my grand-son "graduated" from 4th grade. There actually was a ceremony at the school, as well as caps & gowns. And yes, they all received a graduation certificate.

I thought it was all a bunch of BS, but I had to attend in order to stay on the good side of my wife. And, what's up with sports and all the kids having to be declared a winner? Again.....bunch of BS. Just saw on the news a couple of nights ago, that juniors in HS have a prom. What??

Society has once again, gone the wrong direction. We now treat kids as if they are adults and have certain rights and expectations. Kids suing their parents for a myriad of reasons. I also feel that a parent has a right to discipline their children, both in private and in public. My father was a lumber-jack and then a long-haul truck driver. As a kid, if I messed up, I got a size 12 boot up alongside my ass. Didn't matter if we were at home or in public. I didn't call the local news station and claim child abuse. And, I didn't contact an attorney and file a law-suit.

I won't get into the subject of tattoos on kids these days, once 18. Same goes with adults with sleeve tattoos, as well as their neck and chest covered with them. Seems like females are every bit as bad as males these days, when it comes to tats. I don't want to piss anyone off, so I'll keep my opinion(s) on tattoos, to myself.

Bottom line, and I've stated this before, this society as we currently know it, is heading south at a break-neck speed. I truly don't see much of any chance of it righting itself and heading in a different direction.

At least I'm old enough to say that I've seen good times, I remember them and always will. I feel bad for those that are in their early years. I wish them the best of luck, cause they're going to need it.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

paratrooper:


> "The defendant was obviously a very disturbed person, having done what he did, and respond in such a way, that it boggles the mind of a "normal" person."


I have to agree with you there, unless your life is in immediate danger or that of a loved one, nothing is worth taking someone's life over. As for me, If I have the opportunity, I'd call 911, grab my cell phone and gun (I wouldn't want the intruder to get it) and get the hell out of the house. There's not one item that I own that is worth the cost of defending myself in a criminal trial or a civil suit, or the fact that you've killed someone over a video game console or something like that.


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## andymidplains (Nov 30, 2012)

My son and his friend went out in the woods, not far from a neighbor's house and shot her son's hunting trailer all to pieces, scaring her half to death. We found out and hauled the kids over to apologize. Then the friend's father brought a tractor and I brought a manure spreader, and the two boys spent a long day shoveling dry goat shit out her barn. Then they bought her son a used trailer... I'm sure glad someone didn't shoot them.


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

Byron Smith committed murder - plain and simple.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Two wrongs never make a right. This is a story of many wrongs and no one was right until it got to the jury. Trying to come up with reasons will just fluster the mind and it is just guessing games. The end is 3 people make bad choices that made them criminals and all 3 are off the streets so the streets are a little bit safer.


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