# Advice on first ever gun for personal protection



## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello everyone. I am interested in a handgun for personal protection. That is my main goal here. I also want to enjoy shooting it but mainly want it for that moment you hope you never have to use it for. I am not concerned with name brand, or how pretty it is, or impressing anyone, etc. I want a simple tool that does a simple job....which is to save your life if you were force to do so as your only way out of a bad situation. Yes I do want to enjoy shooting it and practicing at the range, but no plans to enter a shooting competition or anything like that. 
I realize that there are issues in owning and carrying a gun. One would be.....can I deal with the consequences if I ever did have to defend myself with it? I want a gun that I can hide on my person and carry concealed with normal everyday cloths such as jeans, polo shirts, t-shirts, Dickies work pants, etc. My cousin for example has this pocket holster for a Taurus 85 .38 pistol. Then there is the debate on which load to carry.....38, 9mm, .40, .45, .357, etc. My view (being a newbie) is that I want a round that will "do the job" without having to fire an entire clip to save your life. LOL  Do I want semi-auto or revolver? I do not know. I like the simplicity of a revolver but the capacity of a semi-auto. I also want value for money, quality at a good price. It does not have to be the best. I am fine with the "underdog" of guns....if it is a good value. Why pay $1000 for a gun if a $250 will fit my needs? Thank you for the help and advice.


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sig P250sc 9mm....JJ


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I haven't been a member too terribly long, however, I'd suggest you do an archive search concerning you're questions, it's all in here somewhere and has been posted upon in great detail. Great advice by the moderators and members with all you need to know.


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

The first thing to realize is that if you can't shoot well you probably can't defend yourself with a handgun. The second is that most shootings with handgun rounds don't kill so you may need a whole magazine to get the perp stopped. You'll need a gun that will stand up to the amount of shooting you'll need to do to become proficient enough to protect yourself and usually people that need to shoot someone in self defense or to protect someone else's life don't feel too bad about it afterwards. The Taurus handguns have a spotty reputation for quality. I've had some that were wonderful and some that were terrible. The Ruger SP-101 is a reliable weapon and from what I've seen will last indefinitely.


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

I have shot the SP101 and I liked it. I plan on taking classes provided by the local gun shot and get training and not go into this with no education.


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## T-55A5 (Apr 27, 2011)

Glock 30 .45


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

I am not a big fan of revolvers for concealed carry because of their thickness and difficulty of carrying and loading ammo. You said "personal Protection" so I assume you will want to carry it. So, you should be looking for a compact semi-auto. I recommend under 6.5" long, under 25oz, and under 1.2" wide for IWB comfort and optimal concealment. I like 9mm because I can carry more rounds in the magazine and the ammo is at least 30% cheaper. And, if you plan to get good at shooting, you will need to practice a lot. 

That still gives you a ton of options to consider. Then next thing to think about is operation of the gun: 
1) DA/SA with safety or decocker or both,
2) Striker-fired with or without manual safety,
3) Grip safety or not?, Trigger Safety or not?
4) Type of trigger: Long, even DAO or SA-only with manual safety 

I think operation comes down to three types:
DA/SA running decocked or manual safety;
Striker fired with grip and/or trigger safeties;
SA-only carrying cocked and locked.
The heaviness or lightness of the trigger and the feel of the trigger enters here...lots of difference...you want to find a good trigger you like. 

Then comes how many rounds. I think the minimum is 7+1, but I prefer at least 10+1. 

Then its a matter of which grip feels right to you and personal preference. 

I would go to a gun range that rents and try out a bunch of guns to see what you like to hold and shot and pay attention to how you want to operate the gun: DA/SA, Striker, Cocked and Locked. Then, you will have a good idea of the models you should consider for purchase. 

I think you will find the following models will be in your list:
Smith and Wesson M&P Compact;
Ruger LCP 9mm;
Glock 17/19;
Walther P99/PPS;
XD SubCompact;
Cz 2075 RAMI;
SigSauer P250 or 2022;
Taurus Millenium Pro or 709B;
Bersa UC or BP CC 9;
Kahr PM9 or CW9 or CM9;
STI makes a couple of good guns, as well.

I carry a Kahr PM9 and a Cz 2075 RAMI. But I am getting ready to switch almost entirely to the RAMI because of the long trigger pull on the Kahr...I suck when I shoot it fast. 

You may want a full-sized gun as well...plenty of options there too. I think you can't go wrong with S&W, Cz, Glock, or XD. Sigs are good to but notoriously heavy and thick and harder to carry. 
CC


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

I realize that this is similar to the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge debates.  Here is what I know, my gunsmith cousin is a huge fan of the 1911. His brand of choice is Springfield Armory. Now I love his 1911 to shoot, but that is about it. It only holds 7 rounds and it is fullsize so way to big to carry concealed and be comfy. I love the feel of it, the short trigger pull, and how it looks. I also shot his 4 inch barrel XD in .45acp. I liked it but again to big to carry and it was very heavy with the 10 round clip in it. My cousin is the "bigger is better" guy. He is the .45acp guy....he believes in the "knock down power" and "one shot one kill" way of thinking. There my gun knowledge is coming from him and is one sided in a way. 
I spoke with a local cop in Walmart while picking up RX meds and our local cops are carrying either S&W or Glock in .40 The cop told me that he preferred Glock to S&W....he said it was because how the Glock felt in his hand compared to the S&W. I want a gun that no one knows I have. I want it to not be seen. My cousin on the other hand has the permit but he carries in the open a lot. I do not want to make a person uncomfy by seeing a sidearm on my hip while pumping gas or buying a soda. I do not want the "bad guy" to know I have it on my person. If I buy something I plan to take classes and do things correctly and legal and safely. I am the type of guy who will believe facts, science, and balistics over a man telling me that a direct hit from a .45acp will knock a man down. 
Now my step dad is ex-Navy and was part of Vietnam and was a diver back then. Now we do not talk much and I know from the past that he does not maintain his guns well and they few of his that I have tried have all failed in some way. Jams and simply failing to fire are the most common of his guns that I have shot, so I do not want his advice. One was a Larson (I think that is how it is spelt) .380. That guns was a pure POS. The other was a Walther PPK....and it would jam or go "click" and fail to fire. 
I have a gunshop close by....it is called A&P Arms (Lynnhaven Shooting Range). That is where my cousin bought his fullsize XD. That is the only place in my area that I have been in. There are others around but have never been there. My goal with this gun is self defense, to practice with, and have fun. My cousin's views are that most attacks will happen within the 7 yard range, so therefor he says I should master the gun at that level at first and then expand to a greater distance. He says that if an attacker is more than 7 yards away....the attacker is not really a threat to harm you unless he has a firearm. Thank you guys for all the help.


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## cougartex (Jan 2, 2010)

The best advice I could give is go fire as many of the guns you are considering as you possibly can. Rent at the range or borrow from friends, if you can. It's difficult, at best, to try to make a decision solely based on reading literature, getting free advice on the internet or even handling pistols in a store. Being able to actually fire a gun is the best way to determine what feels best and shoots best for you. Everyone has a different opinion about which guns are the best. It will ultimately depend on your intended use of the gun, how it feels in your hand, amount you want to spend, etc.


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello again everyone. I am planning on going shooting with my cousin in a few days. He will be off from work for 4 days so we are gonna do something then. Now he is telling me to take a serious look at a Bersa Thunder .380. He says he really likes it for what it is. It is not the best gun in the world but it is cheap and will do the job. I am planning on looking and shooting in a few days....make a day of it. I have never heard of Bersa and because of that I am not sure if it is a quality gun.


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## Leo (Jul 1, 2010)

I suggest you also try the Ruger SR9c. The recoil is very soft for a 9mm subcompact thanks to the dual recoil spring design. It's very accurate and with the 10rd mag, it's very easy to cc.


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

Leo said:


> I suggest you also try the Ruger SR9c. The recoil is very soft for a 9mm subcompact thanks to the dual recoil spring design. It's very accurate and with the 10rd mag, it's very easy to cc.


this is a good gun and one that i was going to suggest or one with the similar feature of different sized magazines with the sr9c you get a 10rd and a 17rd magazine. this is like 2 guns in 1. i think there is an xd like this too. I like carrying my full-sized 1911 but i must admit the ruger is more comfortable.

good luck with your search


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

s1mp13m4n said:


> Hello again everyone. I am planning on going shooting with my cousin in a few days. He will be off from work for 4 days so we are gonna do something then. Now he is telling me to take a serious look at a Bersa Thunder .380. He says he really likes it for what it is. It is not the best gun in the world but it is cheap and will do the job. I am planning on looking and shooting in a few days....make a day of it. I have never heard of Bersa and because of that I am not sure if it is a quality gun.


Nothing wrong with the Bersa pistols. I have two of them and they have ran well for me. I have a Thunder "Plus" and a standard Thunder .380. I have ran about 600 rounds thru the Plus with no issues, and around 250 thru the Thunder .380 without any issues. :smt033


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

My uncle has a Bersa CC 380 and I am going to see if I can use it and try it when I go shooting with my cousin. My cousin and Uncle like it. I am also looking at the S&W Bodyguard 380. From Cheaperthandirt you are talking $50 or so in price difference from the Bersa to the S&W. Not knowing much about guns....other than reading and research....I feel that the S&W would be a better quality firearm. Would this be correct? I also must admit that I like the idea of buying a Made In USA firearm.....not sure why, I just like the idea.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

I carry the Bodyguard, with a later serial #.....so far, so good.............the Ruger can be purchased for less, but I like the trigger on the Bodyguard better......I am a shirt tucker, and I really do not like holsters unless necessary, so this fit my habits better....carrying in the front pocket, with a Desantis holster....it definitely is not my first choice, nor my last, I may change the way I carry in the future....I looked into a Walther, but it was too heavy for front pocket carry....I also have a Beretta 84fs, and I love that gun, but too fat for carry, unless it was under a jacket.......I do like the round though, with the 84fs, super accurate...with the smaller guns like the Bodyguards and Rugers, not as accurate, of course......practice is needed, but these guns aren't used to shoot thousands of rounds through...take a bit of getting used to......if I had really large hands, I think I would probably go a different route...I don't know much about Bersa or Kahr, but it looks like a lot of people own them, and that Kahr looks like it might fit in a front pocket...may check them out in the future.....


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

P.S........Don't skimp when it comes to personal protection......


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

When I wear gloves I am a cross between a medium and large in size. Medium can be tight but large causes me to have loose finger tips. Does that help any as far as my hand/grip size?


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Sounds like about my hand size.......the Bodyguard is a little small for me, but with the mag ext. it works....the Ruger too, for that matter...my 84fs fits my hand better than anything I have ever held or shot, and if I could carry it without someone noticing, I would in a minute...but you won't find one for a couple hundred anyway.....


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

1. Be concerned about name brand. Some manufacturers are known for having guns that have problems. While others are known for being very reliable, and in the case the gun does screw up for some reason a good named company will likely have a very good customer service. All about trust.

2. You get what you pay. Not saying every $250 gun is good and I am also not saying every $1000 gun is good. Do some research. While a $250 gun might be ok you need to see what other people have to say about what they experienced with it. if I can spend $250 more and get a better more reliable gun I will. My life and my family's life is worth it.

3. The odds of you ever having to reload is going to be very slim. If you want a revolver get a revolver. Alot of people carry a revolver for self defense. A typical self defense shooting won't be a gun fight. There are alot of stories where people have just pulled their shirt up or jacket back and the attacker saw the gun and just ran off. 

I would check guns out from Glock, Ruger, S&W, and Springfield for great guns at a decent price. or you can spend alittle more and go with the Sig and Beretta. Personally, just from my experience I would tend to stay away from Taurus, Kahr, Bersa, Kel-tec, Hi-point.


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## Mr.Bluster (Feb 6, 2012)

cclaxton said:


> I am not a big fan of revolvers for concealed carry because of their thickness and difficulty of carrying and loading ammo.


Fair enuff and some good advice in the rest of his post. But in my concealed carry class the two 30-year police officers who taught our course both said don't dismiss a revolver as your concealed carry weapon. The Ruger LCR, for instance, weighs only 13 ounces. It shoots five .38 caliber bullets. That's only 4 oz. heavier than Ruger's smallest CCW semi-auto, the LCP, which shoots the auto's equivalent of .38 caliber. It holds 6 cartridges plus one in the chamber (i.e.) 7 compared to 5. But revolvers are much simpler to use. No manual safeties to override (esp. if you do want to keep one round chambered). No need to rack the weapon to load the chamber if not chambered. Revolvers cannot jam.

This is purely my own, admittedly newbie opinion, but a CCW should be simple to operate, light in weight and unobtrusive. You're not going to be in an action movie-length fire fight. Nor do you need the knock down power of a hand cannon. A single well placed .38 will convince most perps that there are easier pickings elsewhere. In truth, you're more likely to use it against an attacking dog. In either case, quick access and response is more important, IMHO, than a belt of ammo.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

This is strictly my opinion, and has worked in many years of firearms training, and for men and ladies alike. Buy a handgun just like you would buy a pair of shoes. If Ol' Joe over here says he likes Charlie China tennis shoes, and you're looking for a new pair of shoes, do you run out and buy Joe's pick, just because HE likes 'em? Probably not. If a new shooter is asking what to buy for a carry gun, it doesn't matter what works for me, or anyone else. I suggest telling that new shooter to go to many gun shops, and/or gun shows, and handle all the guns they can get hold of. Just like they would try on shoes. Before long they'll be able to make a list of guns that feel ok, pretty good, real good, and "that really feels great in my hands". The last two are the ones to pursue, and here's why I say that....
If a given handgun doesn't feel "right" in your hands, you'll not shoot it enough to become proficient with it, because it's not comfortable, and you won't like shooting it. Just like you rarely wear shoes that are UNcomfortable. If you're not gonna become proficient with it, save your money, and buy a ball bat to carry. With proper training, and fundamentals, he/she can learn to shoot almost any handgun, or any caliber. Very few folks can re-train their hands to make just any handgun feel comfortable. The last suggestion...get some training......proper shooting technques, practiced slowly, but proficiently, will breed speed. Do it slowly, and do it the right way, every time.......If you practice speed first, and introduce less efficient techniques into your training, you'll have to do it all over again to get it right.

By the way..... anyone who introduces a new shooter to our pastime by having them start with a large-caliber handgun, makes a very poor decision. Yes, some folks do ok starting out with large calibers, but the vast majority will not continue to shoot if their very 1st experience is with .50 S&W. Start with a .22 caliber something, and as your technique/accuracy improves, work up from there. Caliber doesn't count until after you can hit your target.

There always will be a trade-off..... light weight, more recoil...... shorter barrel, more recoil... just sayin....

Again, just my ramblings.... but they work for me...

Shoot Safely....


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

usmcj said:


> This is strictly my opinion, and has worked in many years of firearms training, and for men and ladies alike. Buy a handgun just like you would buy a pair of shoes. If Ol' Joe over here says he likes Charlie China tennis shoes, and you're looking for a new pair of shoes, do you run out and buy Joe's pick, just because HE likes 'em? Probably not. If a new shooter is asking what to buy for a carry gun, it doesn't matter what works for me, or anyone else. I suggest telling that new shooter to go to many gun shops, and/or gun shows, and handle all the guns they can get hold of. Just like they would try on shoes. Before long they'll be able to make a list of guns that feel ok, pretty good, real good, and "that really feels great in my hands". The last two are the ones to pursue, and here's why I say that....
> If a given handgun doesn't feel "right" in your hands, you'll not shoot it enough to become proficient with it, because it's not comfortable, and you won't like shooting it. Just like you rarely wear shoes that are UNcomfortable. If you're not gonna become proficient with it, save your money, and buy a ball bat to carry. With proper training, and fundamentals, he/she can learn to shoot almost any handgun, or any caliber. Very few folks can re-train their hands to make just any handgun feel comfortable. The last suggestion...get some training......proper shooting technques, practiced slowly, but proficiently, will breed speed. Do it slowly, and do it the right way, every time.......If you practice speed first, and introduce less efficient techniques into your training, you'll have to do it all over again to get it right.
> 
> By the way..... anyone who introduces a new shooter to our pastime by having them start with a large-caliber handgun, makes a very poor decision. Yes, some folks do ok starting out with large calibers, but the vast majority will not continue to shoot if their very 1st experience is with .50 S&W. Start with a .22 caliber something, and as your technique/accuracy improves, work up from there. Caliber doesn't count until after you can hit your target.
> ...


OK folk, here goes. First off thanks for this post. I must agree that I must be accurate first before I worry about the power of a bullet. Now I did go and do some shooting and here is what happened. :

Gunes used:
Taurus 85 .38 (cousins gun)
Springfield XD 4inch Darell .45acp
Springfield 1911 fullsize .45acp
Larinson .380 (step dad's gun)

I shot at 7 yards with a fullsize torso target at an indoor range. The Larinson .380 was a pure piece of junk. It jamed with range rounds and just did not feel good in my hands at all. I did not like it. The Taurus 85 was ok. I like being able to pull back the hammer and get a short trigger pull that way while shooting in a range....I know when the gun is going to fire. However I could not hit the broad side of a barn with it. I even shot off one of the clamps that held the target in place. The gun also had a sharp/snappy kick that I was not comfortable with. Next we have the XD. Nice gun and I liked it overall. However it is heavy to me and I did not like the long trigger pull all the time. I never knew when the gun was going to fire, so at times I jerked the gun and was not smooth with it. Now we come to the fullsize 1911. I love that gun. It is nice to look at.....however looks do not really matter when you get down to it. It felt nice in my hand. I love the short trigger pull as well. I was able to keep a 7 round clip in the chest area @ 7 yards with that gun in .45acp range rounds. My only issue with the 1911 was its size and weight. It is way to big to carry concealed. My cousin carrys it open on under a shirt on a belt holster. I did not mind the kick of the 1911 at all and was not jerking the gun when it fired. I put 50 rounds through the 1911 and my hand was not sore after doing so.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

s1mp13m4n said:


> OK folk, here goes. First off thanks for this post. I must agree that I must be accurate first before I worry about the power of a bullet. Now I did go and do some shooting and here is what happened. :
> 
> Gunes used:
> Taurus 85 .38 (cousins gun)
> ...


The first thing you should consider is to what primary purposes you plan to put the gun. It is for target shooting, self-defense, or both? I am going to assume both for the sake of what follows. Next thing to consider is your budget. You should have some idea of the maximum you are willing to spend before you get to the point of developing a list. Then the last thing is how you plan to carry the gun: openly, concealed, or deep concealment. I am going to assume concealed.

There is a huge array of handguns at your selection disposal and one of the best ways to begin developing a list is to visit a major gun show where you can see and handle a variety of pistols and revolvers. You want to see what feels comfortable and natural in your hand, what points naturally, and what allows you to obtain a sight picture quickly. Try to avoid going cheap but do remember that there are a lot of high quality handguns at reasonable prices. Glock, Smith and Wesson (M&P), Springfield Armory XD series, Ruger, Beretta, Taurus.... these are just a few of those out there from which to choose.

Caliber. If the gun is to be used for defensive work, you'd be best not to go less that a 9mm in a pistol or a .38 Special in a revolver. The gun websites are raft with opinions and arguments about which caliber is best and what does and does not work well. Try to visit a range where you can rent different guns and try them out, or if you have friends who have a good selection, see it they will take you along with them shooting. The gun with which you can consistently and confidently deliver rounds to target is better than the one with which you can't seem to even reliably hit the paper.

And what are the basic fundamentals of a defensive sidearm? In the simplest of terms, they follow:

o Reliability. The gun must go bang when it is suppose to. If it is unreliable the next two factors are moot.
o Practical accuracy. This is the ability of the gun and shooter combination to consistently hit the target.
o Power. The cartridge/caliber must be able to deliver sufficient energy and penetration to incapacitate an assailant as quickly as possible.

Good luck in your search.


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

**



SouthernBoy said:


> The first thing you should consider is to what primary purposes you plan to put the gun. It is for target shooting, self-defense, or both? I am going to assume both for the sake of what follows. Next thing to consider is your budget. You should have some idea of the maximum you are willing to spend before you get to the point of developing a list. Then the last thing is how you plan to carry the gun: openly, concealed, or deep concealment. I am going to assume concealed.
> 
> There is a huge array of handguns at your selection disposal and one of the best ways to begin developing a list is to visit a major gun show where you can see and handle a variety of pistols and revolvers. You want to see what feels comfortable and natural in your hand, what points naturally, and what allows you to obtain a sight picture quickly. Try to avoid going cheap but do remember that there are a lot of high quality handguns at reasonable prices. Glock, Smith and Wesson (M&P), Springfield Armory XD series, Ruger, Beretta, Taurus.... these are just a few of those out there from which to choose.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the help. I did like shooting the Springfield XD. I am planning on going to the local gunshow when it comes to the area. From what I have tried so far, the most comfy gun to hold and the gun that just feels right in my hand is the 1911. Trouble is that gun is very large and would be hard to conceal.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

May I ask in which part of Virginia do you reside?


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> May I ask in which part of Virginia do you reside?


I am in Virginia Beach, VA.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

s1mp13m4n said:


> I am in Virginia Beach, VA.


I am outside of Manassas in the western fringe of Prince William County which is roughly 35-40 miles from Washington, DC. You will find a bunch of good people down in the Tidewater area who are more than willing to help you along in a number of ways. Consider perusing opencarry.org, not so much because it is an open carry supportive website but more because you will find out a LOT about carrying in our commonwealth. The Virginia forum on that site is very active, you'll see me there as well, and you will learn a great deal. But it is devoted to open carry so keep that in mind.

I would be happy to offer any information I can so please feel free to ask. And I'll attempt to be objective so as not to introduce any preferences or biases where they are not welcome.... unless you request such. You will find that Virginia is the most lenient and gun-friendly state in the South and the carrying of a firearm is rarely a cause for concern, be it open or concealed. So ask away.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

s1mp13m4n said:


> ...Now we come to the fullsize 1911...My only issue with the 1911 was its size and weight...


It was exactly the size and weight of this pistol that helped you to have as much success with it as you did.

The full-size, full-weight 1911 is the perfect beginner's gun: Its cartridge recoils "softly," rather than sharply, and the pistol's weight and length tame that already soft recoil down to pretty comfortable proportions. Further, as you noted, its trigger is an easy one on which to learn control. Further yet, its safety lever forces you to pay attention to preparing to fire, and thereby helps to enforce the rules of gun safety.

About carrying its weight and size, a man wiser than I once said, "Your pistol should be comforting, not comfortable."


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> It was exactly the size and weight of this pistol that helped you to have as much success with it as you did.
> 
> The full-size, full-weight 1911 is the perfect beginner's gun: Its cartridge recoils "softly," rather than sharply, and the pistol's weight and length tame that already soft recoil down to pretty comfortable proportions. Further, as you noted, its trigger is an easy one on which to learn control. Further yet, its safety lever forces you to pay attention to preparing to fire, and thereby helps to enforce the rules of gun safety.
> 
> About carrying its weight and size, a man wiser than I once said, "Your pistol should be comforting, not comfortable."


I did not think of things from your point of view. I see what you are saying about the gun. I like the fact that gun gun will not fire unless you are holding it correctly and have your palm on the grip safety. The hammer must be back for it to fire, thus you have a visual reminder as well. I like that about the gun. I like the clip release being where it is and not say at the bottom of the gun near the end of the grip. Maybe I am looking at things wrong in that carrying a gun will not always be a comfy thing to do.....such as a pocket knife that you may forget you have on you because it disappears. I feel comfortable using and fieldstripping a 1911 as well.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

s1mp13m4n said:


> ...I like the *clip* release...[emphasis added]


Actually, it's a _magazine_.

Here's the distinction: You use clips, which one discards after use, to load magazines, which are either removable but necessary, or permanently attached.

(There are exceptions. For instance, the US M1 Garand rifle requires its user to load "en-bloc" clips, without which the gun is merely a single-shot device, into its magazine. Another is the Mannlicher clip, seen mostly in Austrian and some Italian rifles, which is loaded, like the M1's, into the gun's magazine, cartridges and all.)

When I was just about to buy my first competition pistol, my (now ex-) wife and I had also been looking at the complex-puzzle sculptures of Miguel Berrocal. After I showed her how the M1911 can be taken completely to pieces without the use of any tools except its own parts, her response was, "It's just like a Berrocal sculpture. Get the pistol instead, because it's more useful than a sculpture would be."


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Actually, it's a _magazine_.
> 
> Here's the distinction: You use clips, which one discards after use, to load magazines, which are either removable but necessary, or permanently attached.
> 
> (There are exceptions. For instance, the US M1 Garand rifle requires its user to load "en-bloc" clips, without which the gun is merely a single-shot device, into its magazine. Another is the Mannlicher clip, seen mostly in Austrian and some Italian rifles, which is loaded, like the M1's, into the gun's magazine, cartridges and all.)


my m1 carbine and my m98 mauser both use stripper clips to load the magazines.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Yes, Ted, exactly.
(I thought I'd said that. Did I leave something out?)


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

Thanks for the correction.  Newbie mistake I think, doh.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yes, Ted, exactly.
> (I thought I'd said that. Did I leave something out?)


i liked your first response better..... and i was just backing your play steve, you did it all correctly

:smt1099


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i liked your first response better..... and i was just backing your play steve, you did it all correctly
> 
> :smt1099


Thank you.

(I thought that my first response could've been misinterpreted as being a little snide or snarky, so I changed it.)


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> (I thought that my first response could've been misinterpreted as being a little snide or snarky, so I changed it.)


i can take snide and snarky, my skin is thicker than the average bears..... but never know who else might make that leap....


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello again everyone.  I have another newbie question. I am curious about something and the brand name seems controversial. Is Hi-Point a quality beginners gun at not much money or is it a pure POS? I mean a .45acp gun for under $200? That seems too good to be true. I like the idea of being made in the USA, but what are they doing to make the guns at such a low price? 
I saw a goofy video on FaceTube about a torture test with the brand, but it was hardly a professional review. I mean doing things properly at a range, using gun control, proper grip, etc.....would that not solve the issue of jamming due to a limp wristed grasp of the gun when shooting it? I do not really care about how the gun looks, I want a simple tool that goes bang when you practice at the range and goes bang should you ever have to protect your life with it. Thanks for the help.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

s1mp13m4n said:


> Hello again everyone.  I have another newbie question. I am curious about something and the brand name seems controversial. Is Hi-Point a quality beginners gun at not much money or is it a pure POS? I mean a .45acp gun for under $200? That seems too good to be true. I like the idea of being made in the USA, but what are they doing to make the guns at such a low price?
> I saw a goofy video on FaceTube about a torture test with the brand, but it was hardly a professional review. I mean doing things properly at a range, using gun control, proper grip, etc.....would that not solve the issue of jamming due to a limp wristed grasp of the gun when shooting it? I do not really care about how the gun looks, I want a simple tool that goes bang when you practice at the range and goes bang should you ever have to protect your life with it. Thanks for the help.


buy a used .38 revolver


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi Points are cheap for a very good reason. They are CHEAP! If you want a cheap gun and all you really want is to get by cheap and own a gun. Hi Point baby.
If you think a 1911 is heavy and big, you aint seen nothing like the Hi Point. Although more money, at least 1911's are made well. Almost anyone can justify the 179 buck price tag and then call others gun snobs ect if they don't like the Hi Point. It is a very viable and often repeated play. Some Hi Points work, some of them even work twice. There are those who have them and are happy with them. I assume they are not hard to please or have never shot a good smooth weapon. Or just don't like to spend money and then feel the need to justify that fact.

RCG


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## Jess (Feb 24, 2012)

Try a shooters rental place if you have one where you are. Rent a few different calibers and makes and models. Get a feel for the bang that works for you then narrow it down. Truth is, as you progress, you will own a variety. I've traded, sold and changed so many times and many of those I let go I later regretted losing. But every one of them was a quality learning experience.

...And there's soooooo many more I want...

PS- I second the used .38. Simple, powerful (with +P duty loads flat out deadly) and super easy to get started on. Then you can branch out and get CRAZY man! It's an expensive habit, er, I mean hobby.


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## 21246 (Feb 4, 2012)

I see your point about a Hi-Point. I am just trying to learn and asking questions is a way to do that. I am trying to work out going back to the range with my cousin and do some more shooting with different guns.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

My advice is to buy a high quality gun.

Go rent several high quality guns and find the one that fit's you best.

Then if a new one of that high quality gun is to expensive ... find it used to buy.

I always buy Good / High Quality guns - either used or new.

I've always been disappointed in "cheap" guns ... because you get what you pay for.

IMHO

:smt1099


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