# Revolver-step down from 38 special?



## wildcat (Jun 23, 2010)

I just got back from the range and I'm amazed how much trouble I had handling my 38 special's recoil. I was using some "Independence" brand rounds in 130 grain. I've used 130 grain before, and I don't remember it hurting my hand and even my elbow and shoulder like that. I literally had to put the gun down between shots and shake it off, it was that bad.

I got a recommendation from the store peeps that I should try some 110 grain ammo, but they were out. Does anyone think that 110 grain rounds will make that big a difference?

I started thinking about trading my 38 in on a lower calibur revolver, but the store owner couldn't think of any other than 22 magnum. I already have a 380 auto, and I used to have autos in other caliburs but had trouble with them jamming, so I got rid of them. 

Soi I really want a revolver for a pocket gun carry weapon, but I don't know what to look for. Does anyone make smaller calibur revolvers, like a 32 special in a pocket size, or something? Should I just try different loads, and maybe resort to custom loads? I already reload rifle rounds, so adding a pistol round die to my press would not be that hard to do.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Roll your own and make them the way you like them. That's what I do.:smt033


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## Ruger71 (Jan 15, 2007)

What kind of rovolver do you have? If it is an airweight type you might consider a heavier revolver as an option.


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## wildcat (Jun 23, 2010)

I definitely don't want a heavier revolver. This one is already too heavy when fully loaded.

It's the Smith and Wesson M&P 340 CT

Product: Model M&P340 CT


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## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

327 mag.

AFS


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

As suggested above, the .327 magnum would be your best option if .38 special is too much for you. It gives you the option of downloading to .32 magnum or .32 S&W. Of course, it's likely going to be in a heavier made gun, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Lighter guns have more recoil, so if you won't go heavier, you may need to do some hand strengthening exercises, or maybe just get some softer grips. It shouldn't be hard to get used to .38 Special in anything with decent grip stocks.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

*Recoil - another long-winded treatise from Dan*



wildcat said:


> I definitely don't want a heavier revolver. This one is already too heavy when fully loaded. It's the Smith and Wesson M&P 340 CT[/url]


Before you go "all expensive" and buy a different gun to get a different calibers (i.e., .327 Fed) or buy a bunch of "reloading stuff"
and use a bunch of your time to "roll your own" light load, let's find out a bit more.

You have a 13.3 oz. gun (unloaded) in your 340. Your "Scandium" alloy makes it 1.7 oz. lighter than my 642 (aluminum frame,
stainless steel cylinder) snubby. And, yours costs twice as much new as mine (different topic). I have a lady friend who has a Ruger LCR, about 13 oz. also.

There is a lot involved in the so-called "perceived recoil".
One thing that doesn't change is a physics law that connects Kinetic Energy, Mass, and Velocity.
K.E. = 1/2 M x V squared. So the "recoil" caused by a given round is function of its Mass (think weight) and its Velocity (speed).

The weight of your current gun is "fixed". At 13.3 oz. unloaded.
The "recoil" can be different depending on the round's "grains" (mass) and feet per second (velocity).
Forget the "needed conversion factors" to get energy in lbs-feet for a bit.

A major operational factor in recoil is the rounds K.E. If you want less recoil, use a round with less K.E.

All of the above is a really long way around to a pertinent question.
Was your "nasty recoil" ammo by any chance labeled "+P" ?
If so, it was higher pressure (+P) than "regular" .38 Spl. Which results in higher K.E.

And, last, before you do anything expensive, try a box of "lower energy" .38 Spl. ammo.

A good one in this category is "Federal Premium Low Recoil Personal Defense" .38 Spl.
It is expensive. It's a hollow-point round designed to expand at its lower energy level.
My lady friend really likes its "less kick" in her lightweight Ruger LCR snubby.

I don't personally use it in my carry weapon. But I got a box for "experimentation".
I noticed less recoil than any my several different "practice" regular .38 Spl. rounds.
And, MUCH less recoil than any of my "practice" +P loads, or the premium self-defense
+P loads I've tried.

I carry Win. 125 grain +P loads in my snubby, and love the CT grips. And, of course,
grip size and "composition" affect perceived recoil a lot also. Think Hogue "Overmolded".

But, my "tastes" in recoil are different. I shoot my Ruger Alaskan "snubby" in .454 Casull a lot.

Obviously, your needs are different. Try the "softer" factory loads first.
Sorry if you already knew all this, and I was "preaching to the choir".:mrgreen:
Good Luck ! :smt1099


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...To which I'll add that a heavy, slow-moving bullet will deliver lots of useful K.E. to the target, but will present you with much less _perceived_ recoil in the process.
Although the K.E. received by your hand will (approximately) equal the K.E. received by your target, a heavy, slow-moving bullet will present your hand with a more-comfortable slow shove, rather than a sharp, fast jab.
My wife, Jean, who weighs 100 pounds fully dressed and sopping wet, has no difficulty shooting her .38 Special, short-barrel revolver using 158-grain bullets in a factory-standard loading.
We remain confident that those big, slow, 158-grain slugs will do the job just as well as 125-grain, Super-WhizzBang, +P+ loadings will.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> . . . Although the K.E. received by your hand will (approximately) equal the K.E. received by your target, a heavy, slow-moving bullet will present your hand with a more-comfortable slow shove, rather than a sharp, fast jab.


What he said.
Thanks Steve. :smt039

Although I can't resist with your moniker, "Steve M1911A1", that kinda gives away the .45 Auto mantra.
"230 grains at 850 f.p.s." is more stopping power than those itty-bitty faster than a speeding bullet calibers like "Wonder Nines".
Oops, velocity faster than a speeding bullet "bullet" doesn't sound "quite right". :mrgreen:

I'm a retired mechanical engineer with too much time on my hands.
So yes, recoil has more factors than just K.E. exiting the barrel.
I was just trying to make it simple in only a few hundred words. Wordiness just a failing I can't overcome.

And, of course, "stopping power" is another BIG can of worms.
But, nothing at all wrong with the "big slow push" recoil theory.

Peace, Steve :smt1099

Oh, I can't resist. Notice there is a "time factor" down below. 
For a given cartridge, the bullet mass is "fixed". The exit velocity from the barrel is "fixed". Or, repeatable enough to say "fixed".
But, the acceleration versus time "path" to achieve that velocity can change. It affects recoil. Even though the exit K.E. is "fixed". 
I hate calling it "perceived recoil". IT IS the recoil.
Just the very long way around to say what Steve said. {:^)

_Newton's Second Law:
A body of mass *m *subject to a force *F *undergoes an acceleration *a * that has the same direction
as the force and a magnitude that is directly proportional to the force and inversely proportional to the mass, i.e., *F *= *ma*. 
Alternatively, the total force applied on a body is equal to the time derivative of linear momentum of the body._


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Dan*;
What follows is elucidation, not argument.
It's called "perceived recoil" because subjective feelings do not necessarily correlate to scientific facts.
Although the "time curve" explains why the recoil resulting from firing a big, slow bullet may be more comfortably absorbed by the shooter and his/her hand(s), it is not the complete story. One must also take into account the psychological and emotional effects involved.
Noise is also a factor, for instance. A louder noise of higher fundamental frequency and shorter duration will make the shot seem to recoil more sharply and less comfortably, notwithstanding the actual measurable numbers involved.
A save-your-life shot taken quickly and in a panic may well present no apparent recoil at all, and may also subjectively make no apparent noise.
And so on...

(I shoot the .45 ACP almost exclusively because it projects the most K.E. with the least perceived recoil of all of the guns I've tried. Jean learned to shoot with a full-size, full-weight M1911 in .45, for exactly the same reason. My experience has been that any normal 10-year-old can be taught to successfully, and comfortably, shoot a full-size .45 semi-auto. Jean carries a .38 Special "snubbie" only because there is no way to conceal a full-size 1911 on her small body, and because she finds the slides of small .45 autos very hard to rack, due to their stiffer recoil springs.)


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## BULLMACK45 (Mar 12, 2010)

*low power 38*



wildcat said:


> I just got back from the range and I'm amazed how much trouble I had handling my 38 special's recoil. I was using some "Independence" brand rounds in 130 grain. I've used 130 grain before, and I don't remember it hurting my hand and even my elbow and shoulder like that. I literally had to put the gun down between shots and shake it off, it was that bad.
> 
> I got a recommendation from the store peeps that I should try some 110 grain ammo, but they were out. Does anyone think that 110 grain rounds will make that big a difference?
> 
> ...


( are you shooting 38 special or 38 special + P ?? ) ??


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

1. Try shooting this with an accessory grip in place of the factory grips. 
2. Are you shooting +P ammo? Switch to a lighter pressure.
3. Lighter bullets have less recoil.
4. Try target ammo and get used to that then venture up a little. Target ammo has quite low pressures and are easy rounds to handle.
5. Try a weapon with a longer barrel. Barrel length alters the recoil. Short barrels will twist your wrist back; long barrels will tend to lift your arm rather than twist the wrist.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Packard said:


> ...3. Lighter bullets have less recoil...


Except in the possible case of light target loads, this is exactly the opposite of the facts.
When loaded to deliver fight-stopping power, light-bullet recoil delivers a sharp jab which many shooters find uncomfortable, especially in a lightweight, small gun.
When loaded to deliver the same fight-stopping power, a heavy-bullet load recoils with a slow push, which most people find more comfortable to absorb.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Except in the possible case of light target loads, this is exactly the opposite of the facts.
> When loaded to deliver fight-stopping power, light-bullet recoil delivers a sharp jab which many shooters find uncomfortable, especially in a lightweight, small gun.
> When loaded to deliver the same fight-stopping power, a heavy-bullet load recoils with a slow push, which most people find more comfortable to absorb.


I've shot some 125 grain +P loads out of my old stainless steel bodyguard .38, and then I shot some 160 grain +P from that same revolver. The 160 grain bullets were far more punishing than the 125 grain bullets were. I am comfortable with the statement that heavier bullets have more recoil (with similar pressures).


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

In the case of +P loads, I'm sure that you're correct.
However, the question was about lessening the perceived recoil impulse, so +P loads are not under discussion here.
Assuming normal pressures and velocities, using heavy-bullet loads reduces the perceived recoil impulse.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> In the case of +P loads, I'm sure that you're correct.
> However, the question was about lessening the perceived recoil impulse, so +P loads are not under discussion here.
> Assuming normal pressures and velocities, using heavy-bullet loads reduces the perceived recoil impulse.


OK. No more arguing on that point.

Target ammo generally has very low recoil, is very accurate and well-placed it is deadly and a man-stopper. At a later date, after the shooter is comfortable with the wadcutters, then he can move up in velocity and power with heavier loadings.

See: Federal Premium - Handgun Details

These are lightly loaded cartridges; if the shooter has good grips on the weapon that fit his hand, and cannot shoot target ammo well, then perhaps a much heavier gun is in order. A heavier gun with a longer barrel will always have less percieved recoil. Magnaporting will help also, but not nearly as well as a longer barrel and more mass.

Would you agree that if the shooter cannot handle the gun with target ammo that another gun might be in order?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...Not only another gun, but also maybe another caliber.
This has already been discussed here. (See previous posts.)

The problem with a heavier (and/or larger) pistol is that it may lead to concealment difficulties. My wife, Jean, for instance, is extremely capable with a full-size .45 Government Model, but there's no way for her to conceal one on her small, thin body.
That said, of course it's true that a beginner should be learning with a full-size pistol, not with the most concealable one in the chosen caliber.
However, there are places where "low-recoil caliber," "concealable pistol," and "full-size pistol" intersect. The various larger .380 ACP pistols are one example. Think M1908 Colt's, for instance.
Of course, that brings up the ancillary problem that "comes with" all of the smaller, low-recoil calibers: The user must really work at learning reflexive, accurate shooting, with the emphasis placed on _accurate_.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree. But some weapons point well for some people and not others.

For my hands the 1911 Colt pointed most naturally. My Smith & Wesson Bodyguard least naturally. With the Bodyguard I had to train myself to have my wrist pointed down as compared to the 1911 which would point as naturally as my pointer finger.

Practice with a weapon will always (almost always) improve your shooting; but starting with a weapon that points naturally for you will yield the quickest results and the most reliable result when under stress.

If a shooter has continuing difficulty with a weapon then choosing another might be the route the quickest results. If the O.P. is a member of a gun club then he might have opportunities to try other weapons (the gun club I used to be a member of would allow members access to used store weapons for use on the range prior to purchasing).


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