# AD or ND in this situation?



## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Let's say you own a gun that has a known mechanical flaw that causes it to fire when dropped. You choose not to have it fixed. So now you drop the gun, and it fires. Would you consider that an AD since it's a mechanical failure or would you consider that a ND since your negligence in handling the firearm ultimately led to its firing? 

Personally, I have to lean towards ND for two reasons; failure to handle a firearm safely and the fact that you knew of the problem and did not get it it fixed.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

I'd say ND. It'd be like knowing your breaks are bad on your car and not fixing them. Negligent all the way.

Zhur


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

I agree with the ND. You know there's a problem but don't fix it? No brainer.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

ND, no question.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

tekhead1219 said:


> I agree with the ND. You know there's a problem but don't fix it? No brainer.


A no-brainer for all that replied, but I'm sure, sadly, that there is someone out there in this world that would put the blame on the gun. Maybe we'll even see someone here!?! :smt107


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

The obvious negligence is avoiding to fix a known problem. It's possible the dropping may occur from something other than negligent handling. Either way, fixing the gun should take presedence.


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## Fred40 (Jan 7, 2008)

Todd said:


> A no-brainer for all that replied, but I'm sure, sadly, that there is someone out there in this world that would put the blame on the gun. Maybe we'll even see someone here!?! :smt107


Hard to imagine. ND all the way.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

Its negligence on two counts. One on the part of the manufacturer who releases a gun without completing the necessary safety testing, and on the part of the operator who doesn't get the thing fixed.

In this instance, there's no mechanical failure (i.e. nothing broke), but rather a faulty design on the part of the manufacturer that should have been caught before production started.

It will be interesting to see if the SR9 and LCP in their original unrepaired configurations become collectible in 20 years.


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## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

If one neglects to fix a firearm with a known issue, and it goes off because of that issue, it was discharged neglectfully. ND for sure.


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

If we do see someone here.....we can beat it into them.:numbchuck::buttkick::anim_lol:


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

ND. There is no such thing as an AD, in my opinion and according to all the training I have received.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

It is obviously the manufacture's fault, not.

ND without question.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

If you follow the correct rules and practices for handling ANY firearm (ie every gun is a loaded gun... keep your booger-hook off the bang-switch, etc...) there is NO SUCH THING AS AN A.D.!!!

ADs do not happen.

Like a surgeon accidentally amputating the wrong arm...
Like accidentally crossing the center line in your car and killing someone…
Like accidentally shooting someone in the face with a shotgun…
Like accidentally cheating on your wife…

Accidental Discharge is laughing so hard you pee your pants….

… and that’s about the only case…

My Un-Opinionated Opinion
JW


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

JeffWard said:


> Accidental Discharge is laughing so hard you pee your pants&#8230;.


:anim_lol: That is some funny crap, Jeff.


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## stetson (May 5, 2006)

Your kidding right? Who would let a pistol out with known mechanical
defects ? Just asking for trouble !


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

stetson said:


> Your kidding right? Who would let a pistol out with known mechanical
> defects ? Just asking for trouble !


Let's just say I got the idea from a statement made from a member in another, recent thread.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

ND

Anytime you can negate a dangerous situation but choose to not then your inaction is responsible for any problems that inaction causes. Your brakes go bad you fix them. It's still your fault if you don't then wreck your car.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

and "holy greatness" forbid that that member ever have an issue with that gun. Funny though there is no AD response yet.......... 

Negligence is not acting a in a responsible matter. so ND. The discharge part is just the aftermath. or the begining of the aftermath probably.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Todd said:


> Let's just say I got the idea from a statement made from a member in another, recent thread.


Somebody trolling for me?

When somebody drops a gun, it is negligence, whether there is a discharge or not. For the rest of it, you and your posse can discuss it among yourselves and I'll check back in a couple of days for your ruling.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Bisley said:


> Somebody trolling for me?
> 
> When somebody drops a gun, it is negligence, whether there is a discharge or not. For the rest of it, you and your posse can discuss it among yourselves and I'll check back in a couple of days for your ruling.


Well, I was keeping it anonymous as to who "inspired" the thread but since you outed yourself, this is the quote that got me thinking.



Bisley said:


> I have an LCP that has to go back.
> 
> I'm still carrying it every day, and I still shoot it regularly. I just don't drop it.


I don't care what anyone else says, my opinion is it is arrogant and irresponsible to carry a gun that has a known mechanical defect because you "don't drop guns". That gun should be sitting in the safe until it is fixed! If you'd only take yourself out if the unthinkable and impossible happened and you dropped then gun and it fired, then I wouldn't care. I'd chalk another one up to Darwin and move on. But the fact that you are carrying it regularly and bringing it to the range, where you are putting other people in danger because of your hubris, is appalling to me. I don't need a "posse" to discuss it with to come to that conclusion.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

You are making way too big a deal out of this. Until now, I always thought moderators were supposed to mediate and dampen conflict, rather than go out of their way to incite it.

OK, here's my last word on the subject. Do with it whatever you will, because I respect your own good judgement a little bit less, now, and it does not matter very much to me that you disapprove.

First off, I am 57 years old, so I have handled a lot of guns that would fire when dropped. I also drove a car for many years before seat belts became a requirement, and I have ridden motorcycles without a helmet. All of the safety requirements that have been added through the years are OK with me, but I am not afraid of, nor will I reject an older gun, just because it does not have them. That is my personal preference. You know your own limitations better than I, so you do what's best for you and yours.

As for endangering others by carrying a gun that could go off if dropped, I think you can easily overwork the "what if" scenarios, in that regard. Here's the only way I ever carry the LCP. I use it only when going to work, or going to the shooting range, because everywhere else, I am able to carry something much better.:

Take the spare magazine and the gun out of the safe. (The safe is in a room with a wood floor and a thickly padded carpet.) Inspect the gun briefly, drop the mag and tap it lightly on something to reseat the cartridges, then re-insert it. Stick the gun in the holster, stick the holster in right front pocket, stick magazine in left front pocket, and go to work.

Work 8-12 hours, come home, remove the gun from the holster and place it back in safe.

The only opportunity there ever is for me to drop the gun is when I take it out of the safe, or put it back in...unless, God forbid, I should ever have to pull it out to shoot at someone. In that case, any innocent bystanders will very likely have a lot more to fear from the bad guy, than from my bumbling about with a loaded mouse gun.

If I drop the gun when removing it from the safe, and the soft carpet does not cushion it enough to prevent a discharge, then the only person in danger from a negligent discharge is me. 

If I drop the gun at the shooting range, it lands on dirt. If it goes off, it endangers only me, because I choose my shooting times when I will have the handgun range to myself.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do whatever scolding you wanted to do, and let's move on to something more interesting. I'm through with this subject.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Bisley said:


> You are making way too big a deal out of this. Until now, I always thought moderators were supposed to mediate and dampen conflict, rather than go out of their way to incite it.


So because I am a mod I cannot have an opinion on something and am just supposed to sit back and watch the forum go by? Dream on. I'm not inciting conflict. In fact, I kept your name out it it many times and just made it a generic issue and wanted to see people's opinions. You're the one that chose to out yourself and make it personal.



Bisley said:


> because I respect your own good judgement a little bit less, now, and it does not matter very much to me that you disapprove.


Oh no! Say it isn't so! Just as you have no regard for my opinion in this matter, I am equally, if not more, indifferent as to your opinion of my judgment.



Bisley said:


> That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do whatever scolding you wanted to do, and let's move on to something more interesting. I'm through with this subject.


Sugar coat it any way you want about how safe you are. You knowingly carry a defective product. That's all I need to know and care about. It's not scolding. It's simply my opinion. Anyone that knowingly carries a defective gun is reckless and irresponsible. You don't like what I have to say about, don't follow the thread. I'm not going to change my opinion nor am I going to end the thread. It's a real issue and deserves to be discussed if members want to.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Todd said:


> I'm not going to change my opinion nor am I going to end the thread.


Who asked for that?

Use your bully pulpit any way you choose. There are other topics I can possibly make a contribution in, unless you decide to use your immense power to chase me off.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

I do not want to get into an argument with anyone, but I agree with Todd 100% that for anyone to carry a gun they know may fire if dropped is irresponsible. With all due respect, the owner's age and/or experience level does not matter. The weapon can still be dropped. The attitude that one has been around guns long enough as to be trusted with a defective one is, for lack of a better term, very dangerous and arrogant. 

I recall a basic student in the police academy where I served as a firearms instructor who refused any advice from the staff with regards to firearms. He claimed to have been the state pistol champion in the 1970s and knew all there was to know about shooting and about handguns in general. We tried to work with him but felt that as long as he was safe, we would let him do his own thing. Approximately five minutes before our first live drill session, the student came to get me and stated that his gun was "broken." He showed me a S&W model 4506 and said that it fired when he engaged the safety. He then proceeded to decock the weapon. 

Upon inspection of the weapon, I discovered that there was nothing wrong with it and I asked how much he had shot it in the past. It turned out that it was not even his and that he had borrowed it from a friend. He had never shot it, nor read the instruction manual. His attitude was that, as the alll knowing 1970 whatever state pistol champ, he knew how to shoot and operate any and all pistols. 

I think we can all agree that this could have all ended very badly had he not admitted his ignorance of the particular weapon he was using, and asked for help.

Again, I am not trying to "jump" on anyone, or lecture, but I do feel that the topic is an important one to discuss.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Bisley said:


> Use your bully pulpit any way you choose. There are other topics I can possibly make a contribution in, unless you decide to use your immense power to chase me off.


PM inbound.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Ptarmigan said:


> I do not want to get into an argument with anyone, but I agree with Todd 100% that for anyone to carry a gun they know may fire if dropped is irresponsible. With all due respect, the owner's age and/or experience level does not matter. The weapon can still be dropped. The attitude that one has been around guns long enough as to be trusted with a defective one is, for lack of a better term, very dangerous and arrogant.


I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. :smt023


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

I certainly hope that others here agree with us. 

Nebraska tried for years to get a CCW law on the books, but one of the issues that kept it from being passed was the attitude of many supporters that there should be no training requirement.

Many voiced the view that they knew enough about guns and should not have to take a class to prove that they could be trusted to carry one. That pretty much killed the bills in committee each year along with other stuff like individuals making statements in public hearings about wanting the right to carry a weapon to protect themselves against the "corrupt governments of the United States and the state of Nebraska." I am sure you can guess how well that went over.

As gun owners, we must show that we can be trusted with the great responsibility of possessing a firearm, and statements like "I know what I am doing" often become famous, or infamous, last words. I think most of us have seen the video of the DEA agent who was "the only one professional enough" to handle a Glock model 22 that he then proceeded to fire, hitting himself in his leg or foot.


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## nelskc (Jan 15, 2008)

> I always thought moderators were supposed to mediate and dampen conflict, rather than go out of their way to incite it.


+1

It's a tough forum to go against the majority and mods. Especially the administrator.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

nelskc said:


> It's a tough forum to go against the majority and mods. Especially the administrator.


I respectfully disagree. With the fear of sounding like a suck-up, I think that *js* is very tolerant of views that differ from his. That was tested a great deal during the weeks leading up the election.

Everyone I am aware of who have been banned or "corrected" since I have been a member here were given plenty of opportunity to turn things around. Some more than I personally felt was deserved.

I served as a moderator on another gun forum, and it is not an easy task. I think the mods here do a great job. :smt023


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Ptarmigan,

Those are fine stories, and I don't disagree with the sentiments contained within them, but you are merely changing the subject.

I made what I thought was an innocent comment in the first thread, which was intended to simply mean that the LCP problem only made it the approximate equal of millions of other guns that have been and still are being used for self-defense.

I am a stickler for safety, and resent comments that suggest otherwise. If someone wants to argue my reasoning, they should simply state their case, and apply some facts, or at least some logic, rather than merely changing the subject to me being an arrogant old fool.

I took the time to describe my use of this 'dangerous' gun. Why don't you tell me where my judgement is wrong, instead of giving me stories.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

nelskc said:


> It's a tough forum to go against the majority and mods. Especially the administrator.


You can go against the mods, *js,* or anyone else here as long as you're disagreeing about *the topic.* Also, PM me a real example of *js* abusing his power as the administrator and not allowing someone to express their opinion on a topic. I'll be the blue guy in the corner holding my breath waiting. I think we're pretty damn tolerant about allowing differing opinions. We have in fact lost members here because we allowed people to voice their opinions that were not in line with what people thought should be the views of a "traditional conservative gun owner". Where we draw the line is where people start violating the forum rules, one of them being:

*• CRITICISM OF MODERATORS AND ADMINISTRATORS:* The forum is an inappropriate venue for publicly discussing any problems you may have with the rules or the administration of the forum. Please contact the moderators or administrators privately by email or PM if you have concerns about rules and administration. In order to respect the privacy of our members we do not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the member concerned.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Bisley,

I was trying to make a point without directly "targeting" you.

Since you asked, however, I feel that you are being irresponsible for keeping and carrying a firearm that is not working correctly. If it does not fuction as it was designed to, please get it fixed. 

Also, if you know the weapon may fire if dropped, you should not carry it around loaded. No matter how much experience you have, you may still drop it and thereby endanger not only yourself but people around you.

If the weapon may fire if dropped, then it may also fire if struck hard enough in the right place. There is a good chance you cold be injured if the weapon is fired while in your pocket or in a holster on your person.

Bottom line is that as a repsonsible gun owner you should not use a weapon that is unsafe for anything other than to look at, in my opinion.

There, how was that?

By the way, I think your claim of anyone calling you "an arrogant old fool" is a bit over the top. No one called you that.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> By the way, I think your claim of anyone calling you "an arrogant old fool" is a bit over the top. No one called you that.


Well, of course not. That would be a personal attack, which is not allowed.

Look, I honestly do not even want to be having this 'debate.' I reacted to sneering remarks from an unexpected source, and as a result, ended up trying to defend against all the straw-man arguments. I thought everyone got their kicks in the other thread, and it was all over. Now here we are, again, because someone wanted to beat a dead horse.

In a lot of circumstances, I would not carry the gun, for the same single reason that you guys keep repeating over and over and over - that it might go off, if dropped - period. But I have made the judgment that it is safe for me to carry it in the circumstances I have described. I have made the rationalization that because there are probably more guns out there without modern safety features than there are with them, and that a lot of them are being carried for self-defense, that I, too, can do it, for a short period of time, and with extreme care being given to not dropping the gun on a hard surface. The alternative is to not carry in certain circumstances.

All of you have just dug in your heels to say it's not safe, and you are not hearing arguments to the contrary. This is not as big of a deal as you all seem to think it is.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Bisley,

I must confess that I did not read the other thread, and I was not aware that this had alread been discussed. No dead horse beating intended from my end.

I do see your points, and they do make sense. I do, however, agree with you that I am saying it is unsafe and that is that. That is exactly what I am saying. When it comes to gun safety there is only black and white, no gray areas. I realize that this is a purist view, but yet, it is the one I choose to take.

One point you make has got me thinking. Carrying an unsafe gun or no gun at all. To be honest, I don't know what I would do. It would be easy for me to sit here and claim that I never would, but of course there would be times where it may be the only option.

Please do not feel that I am coming down on you, or questioning your level of experience etc. I do not know you, and based on your posts here on this forum I have read, you seem to be a level headed person who respects firearms. 

Let me ask you this: Is the weapon in question designed that way or is there something wrong with it? If it does nto work correctly, how difficult would it be to have it excahnged or repaired?


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Bisley said:


> I have made the rationalization that because there are probably more guns out there without modern safety features than there are with them, and that a lot of them are being carried for self-defense, that I, too, can do it, for a short period of time, and with extreme care being given to not dropping the gun on a hard surface.


So because all the people are doing it, it's OK for you? As a responsible gun owner, it's your duty to ensure that your firearms, especially the ones you carry in public, are in their optimal condition and function as the manufacturer intended. The other people that are carrying unsafe guns be damned! A gun that is not functioning properly belongs in a safe, in display case, or at the gun smith; not in a holster out on the street!



Bisley said:


> This is not as big of a deal as you all seem to think it is.


Carrying a gun with a known defect is not a big deal?!?! Wow! I honestly never thought I would see a statement like that made here. I don't know if I should be shocked or pissed.

*EDIT:* After further thought, I'm closing this tread. I don't want some new member, or worse, a new gun owner, to get the impression any member here condones the use or carry of a defective gun.


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