# Ammunition Recommendation(s) . . .



## DrDoctor (Apr 15, 2020)

Greetings . . . I’m an “immigrant” – I “migrated” from another site that just recently made a change of platform (and not for the better), so I “got on the train outa town” with many of the frequenters there. I looked around, and found this site.
OK, that takes care of the introduction, now for the background for my question – my wife and I have been had 2 attempted home invasions. “Attempted” implies that those attempts were thwarted, which they were, by bluffing the potential interloper on each occasion. However, the state police (we live in the county, not in town) advised us to get a couple of “contemporary” firearms (I have a muzzle-loading pistol, and a muzzle-loading rifle, along with a cap-and-ball percussion revolver). So, we got 2, and then another, and then another . . . (it’s almost like an addiction). The first 2 – a Taurus Judge, and a Smith & Wesson 642LS Lady Smith (specifically for her – she wanted her own). The 3rd one was a Smith & Wesson 460V, and the 4th one was a 4” 686 L-Frame .357 Magnum. The last 2 are now polished to a chrome-like shine, and they each wear hand-made wooden grips – the 460V has Kansas Black Walnut grips, and the 686 had Black Walnut grips. And, each now sleeps in its own hand-made wooden felt-lined presentation case.
OK, that takes care of the background, now for the question itself – for home protection, we purchased Liberty Ammunition Civil Defense ammunition. For the 460V, its .45 Long Colt 78gr 1,800 FPS. For the 686, and the 642LS, its .38 Special 50gr 1,500 fps. For the Taurus Judge, its Hornady Critical Defense 410 Triple Defense shot-shells (with a “FTX” slug, and 2 round balls), and Federal Ammunition’s 410 Handgun shot-shells (with 4 pellets of 000 buckshot). So, for those who care to comment – what’s your opinion of these rounds for the respective gun mentioned???
Thank You in advance to all who decide to chime in. Warmest regards . . .


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

Well, as a party of one, step away from that frilly niche brand ammo.
I'm sure some like it and others will tell you all about how great it is, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not a single one is a service ammo. No departments or military uses them.
I'm no fan of 38SP but if that is all you have, go with Ranger, HST, Golden Saber, or any of the main stream ammo, it is there for a reason. Same with the 357 Mag.
They are made to be consistent, low flash, manageable recoil, and just work. Follow up shots are always a consideration, and I was always taught to shoot until the threat was no longer a threat. It very likely will not be after one round.
Same with the 45 Colt. These are usually a hand full, have you fired this ammo? If you have, you know more than I do about it, but would stick with the above if you can find it. If not a Cowboy load in a flat nosed bullet would be my choice. Manageable, plenty of punch and the truncated cone will disrupt more tissue than a round nose.
Practice, practice, practice. Many like wheel guns, but auto loaders will give you a lot of advantage. If you decide to buy again, keep this in mind.
Caliber is pretty subjective. All the service calibers are very close to recoil and performance. You have to decide capacity and pistol size. Sorry, I can't help with the shotgun shell recommendation. 410 is a pretty mild shell especially from a short barrel.
Try out some reliable offerings, there are plenty, and make a choice.


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## sacooper321 (Apr 24, 2019)

Boy, you said a lot about the fancy weapons and their pretty cases. But do you shoot them? 

The gent above nailed it. Practice, practice, practice. 

My advice, enjoy your collection. But buy a 9mm and keep it by the bedside. Maybe one for each of you. Then read the many ammo threads on here, buy a couple to test fire and see what your gun likes and what you shoot well. Then keep practicing with FMJ ammo in the same caliber and grain. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

38 special loads to look at.









The rest sounds fine to me.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

I would suggest taking Luck Gunner testing with a large dose of salt. They even admit their testing is marginal, at best. Clear gel is in no way comparable to 10% ordinance gel for penetration and temporary and permanent cavity measurements. Unfortunately there is no magic math formula to get the observer close to meaningful results.
Even with all of this, the casual observer will conclude that all things are near equal, but in reality they aren't. That is why people make a career studying these things. The FBI has been said to have made a lot of claims in the past couple of years to the superiority of 9MM. Most didn't happen or were made purely out of context. 9MM is now adequate. That means a lot of things, but it doesn't mean it is a better performer than the other service rounds.
It is easy to find (mostly), has a wide offering of ammo and load out, inexpensive ( I never really got this part. For an agency, OK. For the average shooter that may put 1K through one in 5-10 years, the cost savings just isn't there), lighter recoil (there is a reason for that), and some other things. Most of them lead to $$ or getting the most people weapons qualified.


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

As others have already hinted For defensive shooting i would tend to recommend a “service” caliber. This would mean .38 Special, .357 magnum, 9mm, ..357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.

Reasons being:
1 tested and employed by military or police units. They generally are looking for effective and practical and they have budgets to test and study these factors.
2 loads are developed specifically to meet the needs to stop attackers
3 loads are generally available that have an actual track record of effectiveness. Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady FTX rounds, etc. have passed law enforcement testing.
4 avoiding exotic rounds prevents a lot of guess work and undemonstrated theory. Could avoid painting you as a nut job as well. (People will debate wether this is actually an issue or not, but I’ll stick with the defense of “it isn’t to nutty for the police to use” for now.)

What Makes a handgun round effective, you ask? (I’m not a paid professional expert, but the paid professional experts seem to have agreed on some criteria.)

1 it must function reliably. No explanation required.
2 it must create sufficient trauma or blood loss to efficiently incapacitate an attacker. In order to accomplish this the projectile must:
a. Get deep enough into human tissue to have a good chance of hitting major blood vessels, which tend to be deep in the torso, or major blood filled organs such as heart, liver, kidneys, or hit major segments of the central nervous system.
b. Expand to increase tissue damage And blood loss, while retaining enough mass and integrity to get to accepted penetration depth range.
c. accepted depth range is 12-18” of calibrated gelatin (bare and after heavy clothing and barrier penetration tests. Why so deep? Not all bad guys will let you shoot them standing square on to you, without having to go through an arm or other heavy bones before the bullet even enters the torso. Also, gelatin is not a direct human analog, but is a way of testing different loads under lab repeatable conditions and comparing lab results with field results.

why avoid exotic ammo?

Exotic ammo is often driven at velocities or uses bullet materials that cause early fragmentation. Makes impressive gel pictures of massive disruption, early in penetration due to this fragmentation. That comes as a tradeoff in loss of penetration. Loss of mass will cause projectiles to under penetrate. Handgun velocities generally are not high enough to cause additional permanent tissue damage from a temporary stretch cavity. Most studies will show, stretch cavities can become permanent cavities once velocities are over 2200 fps, this is rifle territory. So for handguns physical expansion of bullets and retention of weight are key factors in ensuring adequate penetration and larger permanent wound cavities.


For a defensive handgun, pick one you can afford to shoot a lot. Pick one you like to shoot a lot. Pick one you shoot well, almost without trying hard. Pick one that is easy for you to load, unload, reload, and handle if you have to manipulate it through a malfunction. When things go sideways you don’t want something overly complicated that requires a lot of fine motor skills to get running and keep running.

I note a lot of revolvers. They don’t fail often, but when they do, they are generally worse than auto loaders to get back up and running. Reloading, (without having as much trigger and reload experience as Jerry Miculek) is generally slow and requires more precision than inserting a magazine and letting the slide go home. But the revolvers will generally work fine against most attackers.

of the handguns you list, the two I would pick to press into service would be the 686 and The Lady Smith. I would center my practice around them. The 460 is a hand cannon, and fun to shoot at the range, and cool for impressing folks. Might not look great to a jury, and overpenetration potential is high. (Yeah, we still want the bullets to stay inside the body if we can.). Plus the handling of the gun isn‘5 what I call intuitive or fast. The Judge to me is still more novelty than practical piece. It has its devoted fans but you still don’t see LE jumping on them. I also find the handling of them to be awkward. Practical handgun defensive loads for the Judge and .460 would be hard to find, cost a lot and aren’t conducive to getting adequate practice.

if I were to try to press you toward a service pistol I would say a full size or mid sized (compact, but not sub-compact) handgun in a service caliber would be appropriate.

i would recommend 9mm in any time but a crisis. Right now and during the last ammo buying panic, 9mm flies off the shelves and getting a good supply of practice ammo may be a little harder now. .40 stick around on the shelves a little longer and seems to return to adequate supply reliability sooner. But for the long haul, the 9mm may be more practical. The lesson is to stock up when times are good, so you can still practice when times are not good.

hopefully there is good info in this without me coming off as a judgmental jerk.


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## DrDoctor (Apr 15, 2020)

SSGN_Doc,
Nope, you didn’t present to me as a jerk, so no offense taken. On the contrary, you made some very cogent comments. The reason we purchased a 410 pistol is that’s what the 2 state police officers recommended after the 2 attempted home invasions. As for the 460V, they said that a lighter round fired in a heavier gun would yield minimal recoil. They cited the .38 Special / .357 Magnum as one example, and the .45 Colt in the 460V as another. So, we took them at their word. I’ll never fire a .460 S&W Magnum round in it, nor a .454 Casull, just the .45LC. I think I’ll expand my criteria as to ammunition on our next trip to the gun store. Thx . . .

Great feedback from one and all, and we sincerely appreciate your taking the time to do so. Thx . . .


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## DrDoctor (Apr 15, 2020)

Gungeezer,
Glad you made the trip from the “other site” successfully, as well. Do you know if any of the others made the trip to this destination??? Thx.

PS – How does one add someone to their “like” list???


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## wirenut (Dec 16, 2015)

DrDoctor said:


> Gungeezer,
> Glad you made the trip from the "other site" successfully, as well. Do you know if any of the others made the trip to this destination??? Thx.
> 
> PS - How does one add someone to their "like" list???


I have been here for awhile.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

DrDoctor said:


> SSGN_Doc,
> Nope, you didn't present to me as a jerk, so no offense taken. On the contrary, you made some very cogent comments. The reason we purchased a 410 pistol is that's what the 2 state police officers recommended after the 2 attempted home invasions. As for the 460V, they said that a lighter round fired in a heavier gun would yield minimal recoil. They cited the .38 Special / .357 Magnum as one example, and the .45 Colt in the 460V as another. So, we took them at their word. I'll never fire a .460 S&W Magnum round in it, nor a .454 Casull, just the .45LC. I think I'll expand my criteria as to ammunition on our next trip to the gun store. Thx . . .
> 
> Great feedback from one and all, and we sincerely appreciate your taking the time to do so. Thx . . .


What state? It really doesn't matter. They gave you just about the worst advice all around, especially for a new shooter. Hand cannons are fun on the range and useful in the woods, but not so much a SD device. 38 SP is an anemic round. The +P is even marginal. These are low round count and either way too much or just barely. Five to six shots is arguably not enough, especially if there are multiple attackers. If that is all you are allowed, then so be it, atleast you have more than one
Hopefully you will be able to make the best of them and find a good place.


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

Odd as it may sound, many police officers are really not “gun people”. Many never consider “why” their duty sidearm was chosen by a department Over what they may recommend.

At any rate, you’ve got tools to work with.

Glad to have you onboard.


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

First of all the 38. cal is not anemic and used by many in self defense. The Problem with a short barrel firearm, 380 or revolver is they are not for beginners. They require a lot of training and diligent training. I think the police gave you good advice. On another forum there was a lot of discussion on the Governor and the Judge. Jerry MiCulik video of the Smith was very enlightening. I had never considered one, but seems like a good choice. 
Small revolvers and small 380 are my favorite guns that I shoot. However it took me a long time and a lot of ammo to become proficient with one. 
Personally I believe the Single Shot shotgun in a light gauge is the best choice. Many articles and videos on them. I have quite a bit of shotguns, but actually put many aside for the very light weight
4 1/2 lb 18" single shot shot gun. So light weight and so easy to maneuver. And so SIMPLE to use. 

But any gun takes practice and training. AlL OF THEM.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

Jeb Stuart said:


> Personally I believe the *Single Shot shotgun* in a light gauge is the best choice. Many articles and videos on them.


 I believe this *^* is the first time I have ever seen that recommendation.
Now I know why Obamaha wanted to ban them.

Sam


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

I like Shotguns. For home defense for a person that has no training with a pistol etc. they are SIMPLE. Use some snap caps and can practice at home. A 410 action with defense ammo would be a good choice. Don't know why you have never heard of one for home defense, but many articles etc. on them.
For one thing they are inexpensive. No need to spend a lot of money to get your through until the ranges open up. You can use them for home defense, hunting etc. I have taken down many Deer and Turkey with them. Even though I have some very expensive Shotguns. They are easy to carry in the woods and swamps.










Check out the video.

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBc4mefYz5A*


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

If picking a shotgun for home defense, a single shot would not be my first choice. Not that they are horrible, but a used pump isn’t too much more and probably a bit more practical. The majority of ammo you will find will still be bird or buck shot. I’d go with a 20 or 12 gauge for the ammo. 12 and 20mguage often can b3 found cheaper than .410 for whatever reason. 

My Grandmother lived by herself on a hill in SW Texas. She had 3 guns. 7x57mm Mauser for deer and maybe a big cat or bear if they happened to be roaming. A .410 for snakes or crows, armadillo, and rabbits that would get in her garden and a .22 Rifle Which pretty much filled the same role as the .410.

I guess any of the 3 could be used on home invaders as well. I’d have felt better if she had a 20 or 12 gauge though with some buck shot.


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## Jeb Stuart (Jan 19, 2020)

We are talking about someone that has little or no experience. I have a number of pumps. But there is a learning curve with them. My gosh, a single shot is as about as simple a device as I have seen. And again we are talking about safety for the homeowner as far as handling. But even a single shot needs time on the range. And one thing about shotguns, I do not like to leave one cocked. Bad for the Spring and it better darn well have a good solid way to brace one for a far. 
We had a deer hunger killed not to long ago when a gun leaning on a car fell over. I certainly do not want to shoot a 12 ga. in my house at night.


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

What is the most complicated manipulation performed with use of a shotgun?

- loading/reloading. A single shot may require doing this under stress with every shot needed. Hopefully no shots are needed o4 one at most, but it’s not a guarantee. Cycling a slide is easier if a follow up is needed. I can port load a pump shotgun faster than I can reload a single shot because of having to guide the shell into the chamber manually. 

as for storage, hammer spring fatigue, and security from a fall, her we go:

A pump or even semi auto shotgun may be stored with the magazine tube loaded, chamber empty, and hammer down. To ready the shotgun the action is cycled.

I know I’ve just done a lot of explaining in another thread about no carrying a handgun with an empty chamber. In this case we are talking about a firearm stored in a house in the event of a home invasion.

Logical and reasonable arguments can be made for keeping the shotgun fully loaded and chambered with the safety on as well. Spring fatigue is a function of repeated compression and relaxation. I really don’t think hammer spring fatigue is going to be the critical issue here.

I whole heartedly agree, that no matter what shotgun would be selected (or any firearm for that matter) practice is required. A single shot can indeed work. But loading practice will be critical. A pump requires practice as well, knowing how to cycle the pump if the hammer is cocked (engaging the action release) is critical. Understanding how to load, make ready and unload safely.

I had to qualify with a Mossberg 590, 12 gauge on a recurring basis (used on the subs for security in the boats and pier side, as well as for my auxiliary security force training and pre-deployment training, before they would issue Corpsmen a rifle.) and understand that this may influence my perception, that it does not take long to get someone up to a level of reasonable proficiency with this type of platform. I also owned a Mossberg 500 before I joined the Navy, which may also influence my stance.

in full disclosure I also own 3 single shot shotguns. My great Grandfathers 20 gauge H&R that likely is pre-20th century or near the turn of the century (action is loose, making it unsafe to actually fire, and the firing pin is had made out of a piece of bar stock, indicating this shotgun saw a lot of use.). My Grandfathers 12 gauge Savage/Springfield, which was my first shotgun and is still a solid shooter, but more punishing than my Mossberg. And my grandmothers H&R .410. hitting that narrow chamber and cocking the hammer, trying to get a second shot at a jackrabbit is tough with that .410. it makes you take your time and learn to lead pretty quick.


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