# Everyone wants a Utah CCW Permit!



## Shipwreck

*Popularity of Utah gun permits puts hole in budget
Agency calls trend a burden on taxpayers, safety controls*
By Glen Warchol 
The Salt Lake Tribune

In the 11 years since its passage, Utah's concealed-weapon law has become the closest thing to a national concealed-carry permit, with six of every 10 permits this year going to out-of-state residents.

A tidal wave of nonresident applicants since January has state Bureau of Criminal Identification officials overwhelmed and concerned that Utah taxpayers are subsidizing nonresidents' gun permits. Worse, they say the huge numbers of out-of-state applicants are robbing resources from other important public safety duties - particularly doing criminal background checks on school employees.

"Utah's is the de facto national concealed-carry permit," says Ed McConkie, chief of BCI, which administers the state's concealed-weapons licensing. Of more than 62,000 permits issued from 1995 to 2005, 19,000 have gone to nonresidents.

Applying for Utah's permit requires a gun-safety class, fingerprinting, a criminal background check and $59. An applicant does not have to be a Utah resident - or even have set foot in the state - to get a concealed-gun permit. Utah has licensed instructors in 42 other states and Canada to remotely train applicants for its permit.

Out-of-state applicants, for the most part, are not seeking to carry concealed weapons in Utah. Instead, they want to carry in the more than 30 states that recognize Utah's permit. Utah has the highest level of acceptance in the nation. Add that to the permit's five-year duration, low fee, ease of renewal and modest level of training, and it's no wonder gun rights activists call Utah's "the most valuable permit in the nation."

"With a Utah permit, a nonresident can carry in many other states because those states look at Utah's permit system and say, 'It's a good program. We will accept that,' " says Clark Aposhian, a gun rights lobbyist and chairman of the Utah Concealed Weapon Review Board.

Apparently, word of Utah's bargain concealed-gun permit has spread. The number of out-of-state permits has been increasing rapidly every year - but BCI has not seen anything like this year's onslaught.

The bureau projects the number of concealed weapon applicants will hit 16,138 by the end of 2006, breaking 2005's record of 10,767. But even more shocking to the bureau, fully 58 percent of 2006 applicants do not live in Utah.

Many nonresident applicants apply for Utah permits because their own state's regulations are more stringent or the fees are higher. Then, Utah's reciprocity allows them to carry a concealed handgun on their own turf, says McConkie. "It's better to have a Utah concealed-carry permit in Florida than a Florida permit."

Art Gordon, a gun dealer in St. Louis who has a Utah training licence, says half the people he trains for concealed-carry permits are applying to faraway Utah. Charging $80 each, Gordon has prepared about 200 applicants for Utah's permit. Though Utah only requires "familiarity" with guns - it's possible to get a Utah permit without firing a weapon - Gordon requires his students to prove handgun competence on a shooting range.

"Missouri doesn't have reciprocity with as many states as Utah; that's the primary reason its permit is so popular," Gordon says. "My students come from Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma and Ohio to get Utah permits."

Curtis Oda, R-Clearfield, one of the Legislature's leading gun-rights advocates, is not concerned by the growing number of Utah permits going to nonresidents who are trained out of state.

"As long as they are teaching the proper things, the more people who have concealed weapons, the better," Oda says. "Utah's permit is the most valuable in the country. We are the standard now and more and more states want to have reciprocity with us."

Steve Gunn, a Salt Lake lawyer who is on the board of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah, says he is not surprised about the popularity of Utah's permit considering how easy it is to get one.

"It's a shame that we make these permits available so easily and that we don't have more stringent requirements to get them," Gunn says. "The ease with which one can obtain a permit is not in the best interest of the public."

Though BCI will collect more than $500,000 in fees this year, the program will cost $610,000 to administer, according to bureau figures. Yet, the Legislature only appropriates $88,000 to run the program. "That pays for about one employee," says McConkie.

"The money [from fees] disappears into that big blue ocean of the state budget," says the Department of Public Safety's Col. Claron Brenchley, who oversees the concealed-carry program. The department subsidizes the program through other parts of its budget.

At the same time, the Legislature requires BCI to process the applications within 60 days. This month, for the first time, the six BCI workers who handle the concealed-carry background checks and paperwork have fallen behind. "We are technically in violation of the statute," says Brenchley.

McConkie emphasizes the majority of the backlog of 2,600 applications are from nonresidents. "Out-of-state applicants are driving this dramatic increase in applications. It is skyrocketing."

To keep up, Brenchley says the bureau has been tapping resources in other BCI programs, including employees and computers that should be screening teachers and other workers in sensitive public jobs.

"This has become a public safety issue," Brenchley says of the lagging educator checks. "What is more important, a concealed-carry permit or checking the background of a teacher?"

Oda, Aposhian and others in the gun lobby say the solution is to funnel the state's share of the permit fees directly to BCI to cover the costs of the program. By their math, the state of Utah is making a profit on issuing the permits.

"There is no way BCI can continue to do this," Aposhian says. "They flat-out don't have the manpower to stay in compliance."

Aposhian, chairman of Utah Shooting Sports Council, the local National Rifle Association affiliate, says he would be willing to raise out-of-state permit fees - if the money went to BCI. "I don't want Utahns spending a dime to subsidize out-of-state permits."

But Oda maintains the solution is for the Legislature to mandate all concealed-weapon fees to flow directly to BCI.

"The numbers are there. They have plenty of money to administer the concealed-weapon regulation," he says. "Yet they are only allocated back $88,000, and have to rob Peter to pay Paul to run the program."

McConkie fears any solution that involves increasing the price of permits or limiting issue to nonresidents could trigger a political battle between national gun-rights and gun-control groups. "If Utah is seen as the last bastion of gun permits - it may become a national rallying point."


----------



## propellerhead

Interesting... Thanks.


----------



## Shipwreck

no problem :mrgreen:


----------



## waterburybob

I've been thinking of getting a Utah permit for several years. That, or Florida (good in two more states).

If the permits are costing Utah money, then they didn't set the fee correctly. But hey - when did a government agency ever do anything along the lines of good business principles?


----------



## Buckeye

I believe that Ohio has decided that if you have an out of state permit with a State that has Ohio receprocity, you better be a resident of that other State, otherwise you better have an Ohio permit. This point was stressed in my CCW class.


----------



## Shipwreck

Buckeye said:


> I believe that Ohio has decided that if you have an out of state permit with a State that has Ohio receprocity, you better be a resident of that other State, otherwise you better have an Ohio permit. This point was stressed in my CCW class.


That makes sense


----------



## Todd

I'll just stick with my NC permit. It has pretty good acceptance. I was going to get a MA permit for the times I have to visit my in-laws, but it's too much of a hassle and not worth the money, IMO.


----------



## Shipwreck

I looked at some of these non resident permits a month or so ago when a thread here covered the topic. I took the time and looked - I think it was the NH permit people were talking about - I think all I would gain was NH itself - and I never see myself going there.

My TX permit is good enough.

Actually, the Texas requirements are pretty strict (renewal classes, qualifying, etc) - so, it seems like most issueing states would accept ours.


----------



## 223HollowPoint

Heck I live there (here) Maybe I'll go get me one. I know I'm glad I live in a state that knows its population likes to bear arms.


----------



## MJZZZ

I was all set to get my KS permit but since they don't have reciprocity, I think I'll get the FL and Utah non-resident. Between the two of them they cover every state I travel through. Mike Z


----------



## MJZZZ

Buckeye said:


> I believe that Ohio has decided that if you have an out of state permit with a State that has Ohio receprocity, you better be a resident of that other State, otherwise you better have an Ohio permit. This point was stressed in my CCW class.


I'm calling all the state AG offices to get the verified poop on the individual state laws that I will travel in. I talked to the Ohio Att Gen office this morning and they honor both FL and UT non-resident permits and you do not have to be a resident of issuing state. This law has been in effect since 2004. Mike Z


----------



## Buckeye

MJZZZ said:


> I'm calling all the state AG offices to get the verified poop on the individual state laws that I will travel in. I talked to the Ohio Att Gen office this morning and they honor both FL and UT non-resident permits and you do not have to be a resident of issuing state. This law has been in effect since 2004. Mike Z


Yes this is true if you are NOT a resident of Ohio (maybe I misspoke about being a resident of the issuing state)...but as an Ohio resident I can't float on a Florida Permit....the person who related this info to me has been an expert witness in a number of firearms legal proceedings...if I have time to wade thru the statute and various court cases to verify it I will...like I said it was specifically stressed in my CCW class.

BTW...how do you like our on-your-person-in-plain-sight or locked box in plain sight vehicle laws...carrying on your right hip if an officer comes to the driver side window could end you up in jail, as can having your gun locked up in a box under the seat (the Officer will know you have a CCW before he even approaches, because it pops up as a felony stop when they run your license plate) Not to mention that G-banger rolling with his boys in their tricked-out SUV can look down and see a gun on your person  How about the fact that minor firearms infractions are elevated to felonies for CCW Permit holders? How bout the fact that the media publishes lists of CCW holders because they have specific rights to that information under the Ohio law...how about the fact that criminals use those lists to find LEO's and CCW holders to rob and intimidate because they can get them...how bout it's easier to wind up with a felony for trying to follow the law in Ohio than to not have a permit and just carry anyway...Run into the wrong officer or anti-gun judge, you're hozed no matter how carefully you try to follow the law...how about they had to sue and get a court order for some of the big city county sheriffs offices to actually issue the permit after the legislation was passed and signed into law...how bout the AG's office was passing out "No Guns" signs to businesses after the law was passes essentially tricking them into thinking they had to post the signs when they did not... could go on but I'll get off my soapbox, like I've said before, you have to start somewhere, I feel fortunate that I have the privilege. 

Thanks for listening to my rant


----------



## propellerhead

Anyone know of issues with having an out of state CHL? I have a friend here in Texas that would rather get a Utah CHL mainly due to its reduced cost. $59 vs the $140 in Texas.


----------



## Shipwreck

I think if U are a resident of Texas, U MUST get a Texas CHL. An out of state person visiting here would probably be okay.

This question came up a while back on another site I believe, and someone posted up the law.


----------



## propellerhead

I'd appreciate a link to that.


----------



## AirForceShooter

I'm good. I have Florida

AFS


----------



## dglockster

If you have a Texas CHL, you have reciprocity with 28 states and one other state honors the CHL.


----------



## Shipwreck

propellerhead said:


> I'd appreciate a link to that.


I don't havea link. But, I have seen the question come up before on other boards, and someone provided the info. I wouldn't be able to find it, though.

But think about it. If you are a Tx resident, with a Tx DL. And, U have an out of state CHL, but not one from your own state... Being a resident here, you must have the TX CHL in order to be legal. Why would they allow that? Its not the same as a guy from MN (a MN resident) coming here with FL CHL. This is your own state.


----------



## propellerhead

We share the same sentiments on the issue. If you're a TX resident, then you should have TX plates on your cars, TX drivers license, TX CHL, etc. However, Utah has been issuing something like 40% of their licenses to residents from other states. Can all the ones from TX be carrying illegally? I think not. It has to be one of those holes they haven't plugged. I don't think there's a rule that says you have to convert your CHL to a TX CHL within 30 days of moving here. I know you have to for your car tags and DL. So, let's say I'm a Utah resident with a new Utah CHL. My company moves me to Texas. Within 30 days, I switch my DL and my car tags. Could I not carry legally at that point?


----------



## Shipwreck

I think texas residents may have the Utah AND the TX CHL... I know there is a rule someplace - U may have to call DPS to find it.


----------



## john doe.

Gotta Montana one. It's good in every state that they allow it in.


----------



## propellerhead

Found the answer on another forum!

Utah does not require you to be a Utah resident to get a Utah CHL. It's in the FAQ of the Utah CHL website. Texas does not require you to be a resident of the state that issued you your CHL. As long as Texas has reciprocity with that state, you're good to go. There were several links posted plus the email I got back from the Texas CHL place.


----------



## Shipwreck

propellerhead said:


> Found the answer on another forum!
> 
> Utah does not require you to be a Utah resident to get a Utah CHL. It's in the FAQ of the Utah CHL website. Texas does not require you to be a resident of the state that issued you your CHL. As long as Texas has reciprocity with that state, you're good to go. There were several links posted plus the email I got back from the Texas CHL place.


Well, I knew the answer about Utah - yes, they do not require U be a resident. And, TX may not require that U be a resident of the state your CHL is in - but that still doesn't answer SPECIFICALLY if a TX resident can have an out of state one w/o having a TX CHL first.

Texas doesn't care if a FL guy comes thru on a Utah CHL. But, they may care of a Texas resident has a Utah CHL and is carrying in TX without a TX CHL...

Confusing, huh? 

Do what you want. But if it were me, I'd make sure Ihad a Tx CHL is I lived in TX.


----------



## propellerhead

Shipwreck said:


> But, they may care of a Texas resident has a Utah CHL and is carrying in TX without a TX CHL...


They *may *care? Do you have a link or anything to support that or are you speculating again?


----------



## Shipwreck

propellerhead said:


> They *may *care? Do you have a link or anything to support that or are you speculating again?


I prev stated that I swear I've seen someone post some info stating this. But now, I don't have any sources. I'm not going to spend an hour trying to find it, sorry.


----------



## propellerhead

Shipwreck said:


> I prev stated that I swear I've seen someone post some info stating this. But now, I don't have any sources. I'm not going to spend an hour trying to find it, sorry.


Noted. Thanks.


----------



## Shipwreck

Sorry I dragged your thread all this way with no results  :smt105 :smt105 :smt105


----------



## mw1311

anybody know a Utah certified Instructor in the Houston area?


----------



## S&W Tiger

*Some Links That Might Help.*

http://www.handgunlaw.us/
http://www.opencarry.org/
http://www.packing.org/


----------



## noproblem5671

*Utah*

I was exicted by the possibility of abtaining a non-resident permit when I read this, but I read up on packing.org and my state CA does not honor any other states permits. Not a one.


----------

