# Pro Carry II with Failure to extract spent brass



## hxer

Just looking for suggestions to clear up a problem. I have a Kimber Pro Carry II 9mm stainless that is having multiple failures, jams, etc. The gun is failing to eject spent brass and when it does it throws the brass either straight up or barely off to the side, the majority of the time the spent case will be left in the chamber of the barrel or slightly pulled out. I replaced the extractor with a new one I ordered from Kimber, the problem still persists and may even be worse. I have tried different factory ammo with the same results. Can anyone make recommendations on the next steps I should take to resolve the problems. Thanks


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## VAMarine

*Troubleshooting 1911 Ejection *


> *Empties dribble out*If the empties are barely rolling out of the gun and falling at your feet with every shot, your recoil spring is too stout or your ammo is too weak....


Call Kimber, see if they will send you a new *recoil spring* what types of ammo are you using?

Better yet, call Kimber and have them fix the gun...


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## hxer

Trying to avoid the hassle of shipping the gun and those issues. I have used several types of ammo, federal, remington, and PMC. All produced the same results. I have a recoil spring coming in and will try that. Thanks for the link.


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## VAMarine

Can you be a little more specific on the ammo? 115gr? 124gr? 124gr NATO any type of +P? 147? Gr?

Try some loads with more umph. 

If the spring doesn't work. Send the gun in. Been there done that with not wanting to send the gun back to Kimber...but I should have.


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## hxer

I have only run 115 gr. through it.


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## VAMarine

hxer said:


> I have only run 115 gr. through it.


Where are you getting your ammo from? Walmart or an actual gun store?


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## scooter

Remove the slide, slide a live round(bullet and all for weight reasons) under the extractor and shake the slide a little bit, the shell should NOT fall out if it does your extractor may need to be adjusted(tweaked/bent/whatever) till it holds the shell in place w/o the barrel .
If it passes this test and still FTE spent rounds it probably is too stiff recoil spring assy.

This is all based on an internal extractor, some kimbers had external extractors , which is yours?


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## hxer

I have tried this and it seems to hold properly, I have to shake it pretty hard 2-3 times to get it to fall out, it is an internal extractor. I don't have the equipment to test the weight of the hold on the extractor, I have seen that it should be about 25 oz.


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## hxer

VAMarine said:


> Where are you getting your ammo from? Walmart or an actual gun store?


Most of my ammo is either from wal-mart, academy, and some I have ordered from reputable online sales. I have had no issues with any of the ammo in other handguns I have.


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## scooter

One other point you may already know about but here it is anyway...the short bbl. 45s I have require a very stiff wrist when shooting or the slide will short cycle, Try(if you havent already) to NOT let the barrel flip up at all when firing and see if that helps?
Also I have heard of people cutting of 1/2 coil at a time from the spring and having good luck with that but I dont know that for a fact , I have never had to try it
If it is under warranty I would let them try to fix it first


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## hxer

I have extra springs, I may try to cut one 1/2 coil at a time to see if that helps. Thanks for the advice.


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## VAMarine

hxer said:


> I have extra springs, I may try to cut one 1/2 coil at a time to see if that helps. Thanks for the advice.


I wouldn't go cutting on the springs if I were you, that's a bad habit to start getting into.

As for the ammo and other guns, that's irrelevant as it's obviously not working in this gun. If indeed the spring is too strong, the different loads may function better and provide more information to better find a likely diagnosis for the issues., 1911s can be finicky some times, and 9mm 1911s more so. Try some heavier grain ammo, some +P ammo, or some* 9mm NATO ammo*


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## hxer

So here is what fixed it - I took and compared a new spring from Wolff and the original. The new wolff spring was exactly one coil longer than the original spring that came with the gun when I got it. I installed new spring and FTE continued. I then cut the wolff spring off (one coil) to make it match the length of the original spring. Fired approximately 40 rounds without any trouble. I even shot several with loose grip letting the barrel jump and there were no issues. One more thing I did was polish the ramp with dremel and polishing compound, couldn't tell it made much difference in looking at it but it ran fine.


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## rex

That spring was longer because it was new and never was installed to set,it would have matched the old one in no time installed.I'd check for spring bind,snipping a coil didn't really change the spring weight much at all but it gave less to stack.If it was bind you're lucky because it would break something soon.

Remove the plug and spring (leaving the rod in) and run the slide back all the way and mark the slide tunnel at the front of the frame,then assemble and repeat,if it binds you will stop shy of your mark.Things sound good now but you'll want to know for the next spring replacement,which I would go down one weight instead of snipping it.

Also,on your extractor,does the hook catch on the edge of the hole to remove?It should on 9 and 38 Supers to overcome the narrower case head.You said they were losing grip on the head originally so that's all I see since you have tension.The tip of the hook will also bottom in the case groove on a 9,as opposed to a 45 where the rim is what touches the extractor flat.The front still can't ride the case bevel though,you'll never keep it tensioned right if it does.


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## scooter

One other point to check would be the firing pin retainer, sometimes sanding the bottom edge to a slightly rounder profile will let the slide push the hammer back just a tad easier, between the recoil spring and the hammer spring it may just be a little too much for the 9mm


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## hxer

Rex - the extractor does catch on the edge of the hole when removing, I would like to try a 13lb. spring but didn't have one to try. I guess its time to place another order. Thanks for the advice. By the Way we share the same name. 


Thanks Scooter I will also do that with the firing pin retainer. Then I may try the regular spring again, I have noticed that this particular gun has a pretty stiff hammer pull. 

Rex


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## rex

Pretty wild on the name,didn't see that coming.Cool she's working now,I'm still wondering why the extractor was losing the rim and the case was partially chambered,very odd.

Since Scooter brought up the FPS and you said the hammer is sprung pretty hard,I'd look there for the cure.I need to look up your gun,I can't remember what size goes with names anymore.I'll be back later.


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## rex

OK,you basically have a Commander that's 1/4" short.I didn't find any 9 info but they're running a 22lb recoil spring in a 45,a little heavy so I'm wondering how they set up the main resistance to the recoiling mass.Unless you're getting hammer or strut bind of the grip safety or in the mainspring housing,they oversprung the hammer for some reason.I can't remember factory weight for a 9 on springs but a 23lb mainspring should work just fine.Where are your empties hitting the ground now,over or under 4ft ?


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## hxer

The original spring weight is 14 lbs. in the manual. The empties are hitting anywhere from 3-5 feet away now. much better than before.


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## rex

That's cool.3 is a little shy for full power loads but fine for target and a standard ball round,but 3-6 is the range you want.Once you vary from that you want to control the slide speed better even of it is functioning.


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## scooter

In re-reading this I think I have discovered something important, From all your info it would appear (and I missed it totally) that you have NOT been having a failure to EXTRACT but a failure to EJECT problem. Anyway the recoil spring and hammer spring and firing pin retainer would still be the route we ended up on. The Slide was not coming back far/fast enough to spit the shell out.:mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1

Maybe you're "limp-wristing" the gun. Hold it tighter, with rigidly-locked arms and wrists.
See if that helps.

Failures to eject, especially in short-barrelled pistols, can sometimes be attributed to operator error.


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## hxer

Steve I would like to have the gun able to with stand a little limp-wrist so that my son could shoot it also. Another reason it was purchased was for my wife to carry. So essentially I need it to function flawless. I think I have got it there now. It was never a real problem for me to shoot but when I would intentionally grip it loosely it would fail to eject every round. After a few modifications spoken of earlier I can grip it loose and allow the barrel to flip and it is not jamming now.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

hxer said:


> Steve I would like to have the gun able to with stand a little limp-wrist so that my son could shoot it also.....


i would think that you would teach your son proper technique so he wouldnt be limp wristing it


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## VAMarine

hxer said:


> Steve I would like to have the gun able to with stand a little limp-wrist so that my son could shoot it also. Another reason it was purchased was for my wife to carry. So essentially I need it to function flawless. I think I have got it there now. It was never a real problem for me to shoot but when I would intentionally grip it loosely it would fail to eject every round. After a few modifications spoken of earlier I can grip it loose and allow the barrel to flip and it is not jamming now.





TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i would think that you would teach your son proper technique so he wouldnt be limp wristing it


A bad spring is going to cause issues. A lot of people like to jump up on the limp wristing bandwagon, but it really takes a crappy grip to cause issues in a properly functioning gun. You shouldn't need a death grip to make a gun function.

I'd wager that the original spring was out of spec and that's what caused what appeared to be limp wristing issues with the gun, the weaker 115gr ammo would just make it worse.


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## hxer

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i would think that you would teach your son proper technique so he wouldnt be limp wristing it


I really didn't expect to be lectured about teaching proper handgun techniques, but to make you feel better a nine year old just doesn't have the strength of a full grown man. He probably handles a handgun as well as many adults and safer than many I have seen. He has been taught proper techniques and safety and wouldn't be allowed to participate in shooting if he did not use those techniques and practice safety rules. As a matter of fact I've seen him tear the center out of a target and keep putting rounds through the hole at 20 yards using the weaver stance and proper two handed grip.

He also shoots my .45ACP with no issues, so it goes to reason that the 9mm should function with him also. I think I have the problem fixed anyway, I appreciate the input that those gave concerning the issue I was having.


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## hxer

VAMarine said:


> A bad spring is going to cause issues. A lot of people like to jump up on the limp wristing bandwagon, but it really takes a crappy grip to cause issues in a properly functioning gun. You shouldn't need a death grip to make a gun function.
> 
> I'd wager that the original spring was out of spec and that's what caused what appeared to be limp wristing issues with the gun, the weaker 115gr ammo would just make it worse.


I tend to agree with the spring issue, new one installed, and polished ramp seem to do wonders


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## Steve M1911A1

VAMarine said:


> ...A lot of people like to jump up on the limp wristing bandwagon, but it really takes a crappy grip to cause issues in a properly functioning gun. You shouldn't need a death grip to make a gun function...


I respectfully disagree with that statement.

In a short-barrelled semi-auto pistol, grip and technique are of supreme importance to reliable function. If enough recoil force is "scrubbed off" by a loose hold or a limp wrist, reliability will suffer. The pistol may not fail to eject every time, but it won't be reliable.

I suggest that a small, powerful, semi-auto pistol will not be at its best in weaker hands, be they the hands of a young child, those of an inattentive man, or the hands of a less-than-fully-strong woman.

Bear in mind that I believe that any reasonably motivated 10-year-old can successfully shoot a full-size, full-weight .45 Government Model. Shorties are, however, quite a different matter.


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## VAMarine

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I respectfully disagree with that statement.
> 
> In a short-barrelled semi-auto pistol, grip and technique are of supreme importance to reliable function. If enough recoil force is "scrubbed off" by a loose hold or a limp wrist, reliability will suffer. The pistol may not fail to eject every time, but it won't be reliable.
> 
> *I suggest that a small, powerful, semi-auto pistol will not be at its best in weaker hands, be they the hands of a young child, those of an inattentive man, or the hands of a less-than-fully-strong woman*.
> 
> Bear in mind that I believe that any reasonably motivated 10-year-old can successfully shoot a full-size, full-weight .45 Government Model. Shorties are, however, quite a different matter.


If we were talking about small guns I would agree with you. A Commander sized 1911 in 9mm (light weight it may be) is not what I would call small or overly powerful for it's size.


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## Steve M1911A1

That's true.
I thought that it was a smaller version than that.
Sorry.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

hxer said:


> I really didn't expect to be lectured about teaching proper handgun techniques, but to make you feel better a nine year old just doesn't have the strength of a full grown man. He probably handles a handgun as well as many adults and safer than many I have seen. He has been taught proper techniques and safety and wouldn't be allowed to participate in shooting if he did not use those techniques and practice safety rules. As a matter of fact I've seen him tear the center out of a target and keep putting rounds through the hole at 20 yards using the weaver stance and proper two handed grip.
> 
> He also shoots my .45ACP with no issues, so it goes to reason that the 9mm should function with him also. I think I have the problem fixed anyway, I appreciate the input that those gave concerning the issue I was having.


wasnt a lecture, it was a one sentence comment.


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## scooter

VAMarine said:


> If we were talking about small guns I would agree with you. A Commander sized 1911 in 9mm (light weight it may be) is not what I would call small or overly powerful for it's size.


Yes thats true but 9mm's can and a lot of the time do have a snappier recoil ,especially ball ammo. So while I agree a commander length should be better than that, it is still a possibility.
Like I said before it was probably a spring or combination of springs that were the problem


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## VAMarine

Steve M1911A1 said:


> That's true.
> I thought that it was a smaller version than that.
> Sorry.


No worries, manufacturers fail the KISS principle. :mrgreen:


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## retiredracer

I came across this old post and wondered if you resolved the extraction issue? I have an utra carry II and mine partially extracts the fired rounds and then drops them. It does this with factory ammo or reloads. I sent it back and they replaced the extractor (since the gun was purchased new). I still have problems. Im thinking I should have bought a S&W m&p or a glock. I have run about 2000 rounds through it. I'm just trying to find out more before calling kimber again.


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## rex

retiredracer said:


> I came across this old post and wondered if you resolved the extraction issue? I have an utra carry II and mine partially extracts the fired rounds and then drops them. It does this with factory ammo or reloads. I sent it back and they replaced the extractor (since the gun was purchased new). I still have problems. Im thinking I should have bought a S&W m&p or a glock. I have run about 2000 rounds through it. I'm just trying to find out more before calling kimber again.


I totally forgot about this post.

He did fix it with a new recoil spring,which you should replace now with that many rounds.Kimber has been known to be weak on their extractors and tuning them,they may have replaced it and a few rounds worked and shipped it.Check the tension as the begining of this thread said if it's still dropping them.

There are 2 other possible problems in this scenario I don't think I mentioned.First is a weakened mag spring but I doubt that's the issue.What may happen is a weak extractor lets the case drop a touch and when it gets to the next round,since 9s are short,the case bumps the round and the hook loses the rim.Another problem that's rarer is the extractor is too long and bumping the barrel face.If light it will keep knocking pressure off the extractor,if heavy it will break the hook clean off.Try a new proper wight recoil spring first,the shorties should be replaced pretty often and need a good hold compred to the 4"+ guns.An easy way to get more lockdown without a death grip is roll your elbows out when you get extended,it helps stiffen everything to your shoulders.


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