# Carrying a concealed handgun requires a permit and mandatory training



## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

*Carrying a concealed handgun requires a permit and mandatory training*

By SHARON MONTAGUE
Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:00 am
Salina Journal

Say you're a 24-year-old man with muscles sculpted by hours in the gym. You're driving, alone, on a rural road, at 2 a.m., and a tire blows.

As you're changing the flat, you're approached by a knife-wielding man who demands money and threatens to kill. Are you justified in pulling your concealed handgun and shooting the assailant?

Say you're a woman, 5-feet, 4-inches tall and 120 pounds, and you're in the same situation. The attacker is that 24-year-old man with sculpted muscles. Are you justified in pulling your concealed handgun and firing?

As instructors for Kansas' concealed handgun curriculum will tell you, along with the right to carry that hidden gun comes the responsibility to judge situations and decide when it should be used.

And in many situations, they say, it's not an easy call.

"As far as anyone determining exactly when it's appropriate, that's probably a best guess on most people's part," said Chuck Sexson, director of the concealed carry program for the Kansas Attorney General's Office.

Nearly 4,900 people have applied for Kansas concealed handgun permits, with about 100 of those being from Saline County.

Any Kansan who wants to apply for a license to carry a concealed handgun is required to first pass an eight-hour course taught by a state-certified instructor. Almost half of that day of training is dedicated to the use of deadly force and its aftermath.

"It exposes them to the law on the use of deadly force, and part of it has

to do with preparedness for confrontations," Sexson said.

*The statutes*

Kansas Statute 21-3211 says a person is justified in the use of force when "such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force."

It goes on to say the person is justified if he or she "reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person," and when "force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon such person's dwelling or occupied vehicle."

The statute also says a person is justified in the use of deadly force "to prevent or terminate unlawful entry into or attack upon any dwelling or occupied vehicle if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or another."

*If you can, run away *

Sexson notes that Kansas law was changed to emphasize that a person is not required to attempt to retreat from a situation. In fact, the law says a person "has the right to stand such person's ground and meet force with force."

Nonetheless, instructor Robert Muir of Salina says he suggests that his students run, if possible, instead of shoot.

"If you have a way to get away, that's what you should do," Muir said. "Even though it's not legally required, if you can leave without being harmed yourself or having someone else harmed, that's the thing to do."

Muir teaches students to be aware of their surroundings at all times, so they can try to prevent problems.

"It's kind of like defensive driving," Muir said. "I teach them about mental awareness, things to look for. Most people in the world aren't very aware of their surroundings. They're insular and self-absorbed. We try to teach them not to be that way, so they won't walk into situations where they could get into trouble."

Chuck Harter, owner of The Outback, a public shooting range in McPherson County, gives his students copies of the laws pertaining to concealed handguns and personal protection. He emphasizes to students that he's not an attorney, so he can't make judgments on whether it's legal to draw a handgun in a certain situation. But students can and do suggest scenarios that are discussed during the class.

"We advise them to speak to an attorney if they have technical questions," Harter said. "In our classes, everything has to be hypothetical. They bring up the hypotheticals, and we bring our practical experiences. They use their imaginations on what they would do, and we help talk them through that."

*You need to think -- quickly *

Harter tries to teach his students to quickly analyze a situation, and consciously think through how they would react. There won't be time, when they're in such a situation, to consult an attorney or their instructor.

"The whole idea is to be able to relay to law enforcement, or whoever is investigating the shooting, that you felt, in your mind, that you were definitely at risk, that your life was in danger or your children were in danger, and why," Harter said.

Roger Struble, a Salina defense attorney, said that being able to articulate that fear of loss of life or limb is vital.

"I would think that it would have to be a risk of immediate deadly force being used against you," to justify the use of deadly force, Struble said. "And it better be clear-cut if you're going to shoot first. If you're defending yourself from a shot, if someone fired three shots at you with an Uzi, then that's one thing, but that's not likely to happen."

Harter said people should consider carefully the liability they assume when they decide to carry a concealed handgun.

"Your liability turns over 10 times more than what it is if you don't have a firearm," Harter said. "If you really want to have a firearm for protection, you really ought to know what you're doing."

*Pray you don't need to shoot *

Muir said there are limited situations when simply displaying a handgun can cause an attacker to back away. But if you decide to display a handgun, you can't count on that scaring away the attacker. You have to be prepared to use it.

"If you don't use it, they'll take it away," Muir said. "Once you've committed to revealing the firearm, you have to be committed to shooting it. Make sure that when you bring it out, that is your intention."

Whether you shoot your handgun or not, if you draw it on someone, you should call police and make a report.

"You want to be the reporter of that type of situation, not the subject of the report," Muir said. "If you had to display your gun to keep three guys from attacking you in a parking lot, and they ran off, that's fine, but you need to call the police, tell them you were assaulted and show them your gun and your license to carry."

If you fire your weapon, Muir said, expect an investigation, and be prepared to defend your decision to fire.

"Even if you're correct in shooting, it's going to be one of the worst things that ever happened to you," Muir said.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

I don't care what my physical appearance is or the other guy's. If someone is walking towards me with a knife, demanding money or else I will be killed, the gun is coming out. I'm not going hand-to-hand with someone with a knife. I don't have the training and that's a fight I know I would lose. If the guy is walking, I would probably give him a verbal warning and chance to stop. If he's running, the 21 foot rule is going to be going through my brain .... and a couple of .40's through his. There would be no verbals in that situation.

On the overall point of the artice, I definitely feel that there should be mandatory training if you want your CCW. Most people had to go through some sort of driver's ed to get their driver's license, why should this be any different? Frankly, the states where you can just walk in, pay some sort of fee, and walk out with your CCW scare the crap out of me. We have to sit through an eight hour class, pass the written test, and do a shooing qualification. I think that states who don't have a mandatory class and expect people to either read a manual on the laws or look them up on their own are being irresponsible.


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## XD9OD (Jan 30, 2007)

I can remember my CCDW class in december and after taking it I felt that all firearms owners should take that level of instruction. Simply wonderful in information taught. Well worth the $$ invested. CCDW is a very serious thing. I only took the class so i could CC while camping, but now it's a part of me. I like the option of tomorrow!


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

> I don't care what my physical appearance is or the other guy's. If someone is walking towards me with a knife, demanding money or else I will be killed, the gun is coming out.


Amen to that!!!! I'll add that in assition to the gun coming out, what in it is coming out as well!!!!


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## Mdnitedrftr (Aug 10, 2006)

I support firearms training. I think it should be mandatory.


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## Revolver (Aug 26, 2006)

CCW permit fees and required class fees are just a way for keeping those on tight budgets from carrying. Kind of like needing to buy a permit to speak your mind or worship in public. And judging from how well I've seen some CCW'ers shoot, I say that the course makes them no more dangerous. And I feel a hell of a lot safer in a state like VT where you can carry without permit than FL for obvious reasons.

Firearms are not the problem, it's the government and associated "justice" system that perpetuates the proliferation violent crime and our current "culture" that glorifies such behavior. 
We could require courses for possession of rifles and shotguns or possession of pistols on private properties or ranges on the same token(i.e. permit to possess). The same issues are a concern in HD scenarios.

I'm glad I personally never had to take any of these courses.

I'm against the permit system, especially since it requires fees to be paid which reveals the true motives behind this system. They justify the fees with extra paper work and background checks but it often requires background checks to buy firearms. Also, criminals don't concern themselves with carrying legally, so the alleged goal of the permit system is not addressed. This makes it a broken system which only discourages those who want to protect themselves and are a lot less likely to misuse their firearms to begin with.


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

Revolver said:


> This makes it a broken system which only discourages those who want to protect themselves and are a lot less likely to misuse their firearms to begin with.


Yes, you are mostly right in my opinion...but keep this in mind...

I do not pretend to know what is going through a police officer's mind, but if I was a cop and I pulled someone over for a traffic stop, and they told me about the concealed weapon and the permit to carry, and once all of that checked out...you have just captured MUCH of the officer's trust. He knows that you have gone through the trouble of taking a class, paying some fees, getting fingerprinted, and even going in person to the sheriff's department and sitting down with an officer to get the permit.

In his eyes, you are one of the "good guys". I am not saying that it will get you out of a ticket, but if you are truely a "badguy" who has jumped through all the hoops of conceal carrying...then the traffic stop will likley only venture into the depths of a traffic stop. If you have a dead prostitute in the trunk, the officer may be less likely to ask you to search the trunk...or what if you were a drug runner with a CCW? I bet once you get the speeding ticket (drug runners shouldn't speed anyway), the officer is more likely to send you on your way rather than getting suspiscious of illegal activities (unless you are acting weird or there is an odor).

I don't have any of the above problems to deal with, so a CCW for me is not a disguise, but I bet there are many out there who may be on the borderline of being "stand-up citizens" but the CCW gets them out of further trouble given the trust level they earn from the cop...

I dunno...just thinking out loud...


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

This may open a BIG can of worms, but so be it.

While I think everyone should get some training proior to carrying a weapon. I DO NOT believe it should be a requirement. There is NOTHING in the 2nd ammd of the constitution that says "the right to keep and BEAR arms, after properly trained" IMHO, mandatory training is just another 'feel good' infringement on our rights.

A gun is just a tool, one should always learn (get trained) on the proper usage of any tool. 

My 2 cents.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Todd said:


> I don't care what my physical appearance is or the other guy's. If someone is walking towards me with a knife, demanding money or else I will be killed, the gun is coming out.





jwkimber45 said:


> Amen to that!!!! I'll add that in assition to the gun coming out, what in it is coming out as well!!!!





jwkimber45 said:


> This may open a BIG can of worms, but so be it.
> 
> *While I think everyone should get some training proior to carrying a weapon. I DO NOT believe it should be a requirement. There is NOTHING in the 2nd ammd of the constitution that says "the right to keep and BEAR arms, after properly trained"* IMHO, mandatory training is just another 'feel good' infringement on our rights.
> 
> ...


I agree, if you have a knife or other weapon and threaten my life, I'm going to shoot to stop the threat.

JW, I agree with you on that. Good response... :smt023


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## mike468 (Jan 5, 2007)

Anyone who carries a handgun should be responsible enough to get training in its lawful and safe use. Period. Permits are another matter.


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## Sean (Feb 5, 2007)

I absolutely believe training should be mandatory before one is given a CCW. There are SO many misconceptions and half-truths running rampant in the gun community.

*"If you shoot someone, drag them into the house"* NOT! This is one of those classic examples of a situation that deadly force might have been justified, but by someone tampering with evidence, and therefore lying gets into a whole new trick bag. I know I am preaching to the choir...but how many of you have heard this or similar statements????

I no longer get paid to run toward gunfire, and I have only my wife, and child to protect, but I will do so with all the ferocity and savagery of a pissed off grizzley bear. That being said....I will also do my daggum best to AVOID those situations all together.

Knowing when to shoot is ALMOST second in priority to knowing when NOT to shoot.

The Tueller drill has proven a knife within 21 feet IS an immediate and deadly threat. Same with a bat, an axe, a club....you name it.

We need to remember to carry COMMON SENSE as a backup to our CCW gun.

IMHO


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## Tecumseh (May 25, 2006)

bangbang said:


> Yes, you are mostly right in my opinion...but keep this in mind...
> 
> I do not pretend to know what is going through a police officer's mind, but if I was a cop and I pulled someone over for a traffic stop, and they told me about the concealed weapon and the permit to carry, and once all of that checked out...you have just captured MUCH of the officer's trust. He knows that you have gone through the trouble of taking a class, paying some fees, getting fingerprinted, and even going in person to the sheriff's department and sitting down with an officer to get the permit.
> 
> ...


So then why do I read posts about people SOMETIMES being disarmed by officer friendly? A CCW permit does not mean your a good guy. It just means that the state has licensed you to carry a gun.

I think training and permit requirements are unconstitutional.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

bangbang said:


> Yes, you are mostly right in my opinion...but keep this in mind...
> 
> 1.I do not pretend to know what is going through a police officer's mind, but if I was a cop and I pulled someone over for a traffic stop, and they told me about the concealed weapon and the permit to carry, and once all of that checked out...you have just captured MUCH of the officer's trust. He knows that you have gone through the trouble of taking a class, paying some fees, getting fingerprinted, and even going in person to the sheriff's department and sitting down with an officer to get the permit.
> 
> ...


1. Thats a relief
2. As a former LEO I know that just because you have a CWL DOES NOT mean you immediatley "earn my trust" it just means I " may" not keep as close an eye on you as I might have otherwise! Earning trust takes time and effort and usually the people LEO's spend the most time with ARE NOT going to earn their trust , probably ever.


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