# Why so much doubt with Bersa



## bryan1966

I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa? Most of the negative statments are mad from IMO are people who think they can shoot but really dont know how. I know I will catch crap for that but it is true. And for the record I am an ex-cop, ex-military, and was on the Air Force EST teams as a sniper. So I think I know how to shoot and shoot well. Your responses are welcomed


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## Dsig1

I have/had a Bersa 380 until my wife took it for her full time CCW. Never had any issues with reliability at all. Many people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and aren't looking past multi-thousand round range session reviews to see other types of value in what they might buy. Some guns are not made to have thousands of rounds poured through them. You will see Kel Tecs get the same bad rap but those on this forum who know better carry them all the time as pocket guns. Store owners will also steer you away from these less expensive models to sell the name brands at higher margins. You are right to ask for reviews here. You will get honest commentary from experienced owners.


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## BeefyBeefo

Dsig1 said:


> Many people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and aren't looking past multi-thousand round range session reviews to see other types of value in what they might buy. Some guns are not made to have thousands of rounds poured through them. You will see Kel Tecs get the same bad rap but those on this forum who know better carry them all the time as pocket guns. Store owners will also steer you away from these less expensive models to sell the name brands at higher margins. You are right to ask for reviews here. You will get honest commentary from experienced owners.


+1 to all of that :smt033

I especially agree with the fact that people view inexpensive as "cheap". I personally haven't heard anything bad about any of the Bersa models, although I don't know anyone who owns a .45 Bersa. People with more experience with Bersa will chime in I'm sure :smt1099

-Jeff-


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## Thunder 9

I have no doubt about Bersa. It took a while for me to find a local dealer who had some Thunder 9's in stock. The range I use has many rentals, including a Bersa with (at that time) over 5,000 rounds on it. I bought a Bersa without ever having fired a shot through one. More than 3,000 flawless rounds through two Bersa pistols later I have never regretted that decision. Doubt if you will either.


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## Black Metal

I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues. My wife has a .380cc and she loves it. We would definitly buy Bersa again.


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## Dsig1

I spoke to a store owner in PA today about Bersa (and other lower cost models). He said that the ATF routinely hassles gun store owners about the paperwork for these low cost firearms. He showed me what amounted to an ATF "hit list" for these inexpensive guns. Bersa, Kel Tec, Astra, Star...It seems as they are essentially a hassle to inventory for shop owners so it can be tough to find some of them under the glass in the store. This scrutiny doesn't outwardly seem to transfer to the eventual buyer but my guess is that the ATF keeps a special record of persons who purchase these guns.


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## BeefyBeefo

Drew_Rami_P said:


> I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues.


That's an interesting way to look at it. Good point Drew.

-Jeff-


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## kenn

*Bersa Sales*

I wouldn't rent them if I were a gun shop owner. They're under 300$, so not much of a markup. They're reliable, so no smithing charges. They also might make someone go, "why don't I just get that one for 350.00 instead of this $1400.00 Springfield 1911 (now there's a gun you can make some money on.


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## Mike Barham

Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.

I know that they've been tested by gun rags, but gun rag "tests" seldom expend more than a couple of hundred rounds, and tend to gloss over any failures anyway.

And I know lots of people on the internet post about their excellent Bersas. But once again, we almost invariably see opinions based on low round counts, usually just a couple hundred rounds. I think this may be partially because serious shooters who expend lots of ammo are generally attracted to guns with longer and deeper track records than Bersa can currently produce.

While Bersas may indeed be excellent, long lived, totally reliable pistols, I haven't seen anything that objectively establishes such. I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.

I'm not saying Bersas are bad pistols at all - I know several people who are very pleased with their Bersa .380s. But I think this is why you see "doubt" about them. When someone takes thirty randomly selected Bersas and puts 10,000 rounds through each of them, then reports mean rounds between failure, number of broken parts if any, and accuracy before and after...well, then I will start taking them seriously as service pistols (assuming they survive the test).

And I think I have a reasonable idea of how to shoot, and what good shooting looks like. :mrgreen:


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## BeefyBeefo

Mike Barham said:


> I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.


You forgot XD! :goofy::anim_lol::anim_lol:

I definitely agree though, and I wouldn't mind seeing tests like that with some Bersa models simply out of curiosity.

-Jeff-


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## Mike Barham

BeefyBeefo said:


> You forgot XD!


I intentionally left the XD off the list because I am unaware of such tests. Do you have a link to any?

I know people here think I hate XDs, but I actually think it's a very good pistol (just not quite as good as another that shall remain nameless). I would very much like to see some objective tests on it, though, with multiple gun samples and high round counts.


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## BeefyBeefo

Mike Barham said:


> I intentionally left the XD off the list because I am unaware of such tests. Do you have a link to any?


http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php
I know this is posted on the springfield site, but this is the only one that I know of as of right now. I'm sure it might be a little biased :smt083, and it's not a multiple gun test, but that's the one I have bookmarked :mrgreen: I'll have to do a search and see if I can find any others. Interesting point though, as this is not a multiple gun test.



Mike Barham said:


> I know people here think I hate XDs, but I actually think it's a very good pistol (just not quite as good as another that shall remain nameless).


:anim_lol:

-Jeff-


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## cupsz71

Wife luv's her BERSA T380.

Not many rounds thru it though. I bought it for her as a CCW she can carry, but she picked it out.

She has had 3 "_stove-piping_" in the last 350 rnds......but I attribute them to the wife relaxing her grip and limp wristing.

I personally haven't had any particular issues when I shoot it. Took some adjusting to get it sighted in though.

My observartions:

*PROS*:
1. cost $$$$$
2. good CCW size 
3. safety features
4. Very accutate at 8-10 yrds

*CONS:* 
1. Caliber size in .380 (for me)
2. Hard on the hands after 60+ rounds
3. Field stripping is a challenge

oh......not a con of the actual gun......extra mags are HARD to find.

I personally decided to go w/XD9sc as my CCW.

Good luck:smt023


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## Mike Barham

Heh, that article was originally from _Handguns_ magazine. I wonder how big the Springfield ad was in that issue? :mrgreen:


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## BeefyBeefo

Mike Barham said:


> Heh, that article was originally from _Handguns_ magazine. I wonder how big the Springfield ad was in that issue? :mrgreen:


:anim_lol: I thought you might like that one. I have actually searched and not found any others. Interesting, considering they're trying to compete with Glock the most (atleast it seems that way :numbchuck. You'd think with as long as they've been out, you'd have some independents carrying out tests very similar to Glock tests. Maybe I just can't find them, but I tried and didn't really see any others. I'll just put 20,000 through mine and see...nevermind then I wouldn't be able to clean it like a freak....but it could be 20,000 through a clean gun! :smt033 :smt082 If anyone else has any links to other tests, I'd be interested to see.

-Jeff-


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## Joeshwa24

BeefyBeefo said:


> :anim_lol: I thought you might like that one. I have actually searched and not found any others. Interesting, considering they're trying to compete with Glock the most (atleast it seems that way :numbchuck. You'd think with as long as they've been out, you'd have some independents carrying out tests very similar to Glock tests. Maybe I just can't find them, but I tried and didn't really see any others. I'll just put 20,000 through mine and see...nevermind then I wouldn't be able to clean it like a freak....but it could be 20,000 through a clean gun! :smt033 :smt082 If anyone else has any links to other tests, I'd be interested to see.
> 
> -Jeff-


I am seriously thinking of dropping the 2500 bucks it would cost to do a real independent test on an XD-9. I have worked with the State of New Mexico to develop several measurement tools in regards to testing students in tobacco, alcohol and drug consumption so I have a bit of history in the field of testing. I have gone so far as to contact my local range and Riclin firearms (Our local gun school) to see what kind of help I could get in facilities and supervision and they love the idea. My next step is to contact some ammunition production companies to see if I could get a brake on the ammo to do the test. I know I'm dreaming but I would love to put 20,000 rounds down range over the course of 6 months and really put an XD through its paces.

As far as the Bersa My wife has a Bersa Thunder .380 and it is extremely reliable.


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## BeefyBeefo

Joeshwa24 said:


> I am seriously thinking of dropping the 2500 bucks it would cost to do a real independent test on an XD-9. I have worked with the State of New Mexico to develop several measurement tools in regards to testing students in tobacco, alcohol and drug consumption so I have a bit of history in the field of testing. I have gone so far as to contact my local range and Riclin firearms (Our local gun school) to see what kind of help I could get in facilities and supervision and they love the idea. My next step is to contact some ammunition production companies to see if I could get a brake on the ammo to do the test. I know I'm dreaming but I would love to put 20,000 rounds down range over the course of 6 months and really put an XD through its paces.


That would be amazing and I would love to see it/read reports. I have a feeling the XD could stand up to the tests Glocks have been put through. Good luck with the process and definitely keep us updated! :smt1099

-Jeff-


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## Mike Barham

That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?


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## niadhf

Mike Barham said:


> That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.
> 
> How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?


Mike,
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that I have heard these arguments before. Oh, can't remember 10 or so years ago, when this new Austrian pistol hit the U.S. market? :smt033
Are your points invalid? No. Everyone starts somewhere is my point.

And while this is not a test, the results of this, mmmm, experience, are heartening.
http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=7111


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## Joeshwa24

Mike Barham said:


> That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.
> 
> How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?


Yeah its true you really cant get that kind of testing unless your pistol gets put into intensive service. The Wifes bersa has just over 1000 rounds. I know its not that much but not a failure yet.


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## Mike Barham

More like 25 years ago on the Glock. But the Glock was pretty well field-proven in five or so years, and had been tested (in multiples) by numerous military organization, including the vaunted GSG-9, and was quickly adopted by LE agencies. I remember Miami causing a big stir when it was one of the first big American agencies to chose the Glock.

Neither the XD nor the Bersa has been adopted on such a scale, and both have been on the market for quite a while. If you include the HS2000 years, the XD now has now been around for nine years, and has nowhere near the depth and breadth of the Glock's track record at that same point in Glock production history. Bersas have been around as long as I can remember, and they too lack a substantial track record as service pistols thus far.


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## submoa

Some guns define the manufacturer.

Bersa is known for the Thunder .380. 
Kel-Tec is known for the P-3AT.

Unfortunately, like an actor who has one long lived wildly successful role, these companies have been stereotyped by their most popular product. They are victims of their own success. When you want a deep cover, small .380 CCW these are the products that make the list. But when you need a more serious service pistol, you look elsewhere.

Are their products any good in larger calibers? I wouldn't know. I don't know anyone who has one. But if you need a small .380....


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## Landor

I have a Bersa 380 CC model. It is as finicky as you can get with ammo. It will only feed Hornaday JHP so far and WWB FMJ. Everything else I tried is jam-o-matic. Now normally I would say it is just the gun but a fried of mine has the Bersa 380 full size and it is just as finicky. I trust it with the right ammo but other then that it is my last Bersa 380. When the Ruger LCP 380 hits the stores I will be all over that.

Another friend of mine has the Bersa 9MM and that thing shoots great. I would buy one of them in a minute if I wanted one but I have enough 9mm.


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## Joeshwa24

Mike Barham said:


> More like 25 years ago on the Glock. But the Glock was pretty well field-proven in five or so years, and had been tested (in multiples) by numerous military organization, including the vaunted GSG-9, and was quickly adopted by LE agencies. I remember Miami causing a big stir when it was one of the first big American agencies to chose the Glock.
> 
> Neither the XD nor the Bersa has been adopted on such a scale, and both have been on the market for quite a while. If you include the HS2000 years, the XD now has now been around for nine years, and has nowhere near the depth and breadth of the Glock's track record at that same point in Glock production history. Bersas have been around as long as I can remember, and they too lack a substantial track record as service pistols thus far.


I totally understand this point and it is both valid and true. However, In a world of budget cuts and a "If it aint broke" attitude the XD never had a chance. I think that the XD is just as good as a glock, there's about as much "Proof" out there that XD's are better than glocks as there is "Proof" that they are worse. What I am trying to say is you can no more definitely say that XD's are a lesser pistol than the Glock than you can definitively say that they are a greater pistol than the Glock. The point being that the XD is just as reliable as a glock and beyond that it's personal preference.


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## Mike Barham

I don't know how one can definitively say the XD is, overall, as reliable as the Glock in the absence of actual objective evidence that it is.

I think the XD is a fine pistol, but it doesn't have _nearly_ the track record that the Glock does, and hasn't been put through nearly the multiple wringers the Glock has. The info we have on the XD so far comes mainly from the results of a few tests conducted by amateurs on single specimens of the gun. That's a pretty far cry from the mounds of testing done on Glocks by professional militaries and LE agencies.

And the Glock has a lower bore axis and a shorter trigger reset. :mrgreen:


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## niadhf

Mike Barham said:


> And the Glock has a lower bore axis and a shorter trigger reset. :mrgreen:


axis this. :anim_lol:
i'm joking by the way. I think in terms of the "more extensive testing and use by this term in its life vs......" someone had a good point about timing. The Glock came out at a time (25 Years? good time flies) when many agencies, armies etc were re-thinking their armement. That does tend to lend itself to more extensive testing in a short time.

You know i don't think the Glock is a bad pistol, I just don't like it for me.(yes i have shot them.)
So to avoid another round of "Glock vs ......" lets just say
They both (in this case) seem good, to each, his/her own.

(and my 1911 has a shorter reset so Nya nya :goofy
ok i'll head that one off, the ONLY problems i have had with it in 17 years is when *I* put one of the double springs in backwards. I bought it used and put nothing more into is so its not some x thousands special.:smt082


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## submoa

Mike Barham said:


> Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.


Bersa Thunder 9 pistols are standard issue pistols for the Argentinean Federal Police and the Buenos Aires Province Police.


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## Mike Barham

submoa said:


> Bersa Thunder 9 pistols are standard issue pistols for the Argentinean Federal Police and the Buenos Aires Province Police.


Now we're getting somewhere! Is there a link to their testing procedures and standards anywhere?

(I suspect, sadly, that like most Third World countries, these guys just adopted it because it's homegrown.)


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## submoa

Mike Barham said:


> submoa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bersa Thunder 9 pistols are standard issue pistols for the Argentinean Federal Police and the Buenos Aires Province Police.
> 
> 
> 
> Now we're getting somewhere! Is there a link to their testing procedures and standards anywhere?
> 
> (I suspect, sadly, that like most Third World countries, these guys just adopted it because it's homegrown.)
Click to expand...

Any official docs will probably be in Spanish.

Argentina is not Third World. New Orleans is closer to that standard.

Have you ever known government procurement _not_ to be influenced by politics?


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## Mike Barham

submoa said:


> Any official docs will probably be in Spanish.


I'm from Arizona. :mrgreen:



> Argentina is not Third World. New Orleans is closer to that standard.


I looked up this definition:

_Third World: Phrase used originally to distinguish those countries that were aligned neither with the capitalist West, the First World, nor with the socialist East, the Second World. It remains widely used to describe non-industrialized, ex-colonial, or developing countries despite the collapse of the Second World. 
_
Cosmopolitan Third World, perhaps, but I think Argentina is still a "developing" country. It's hardly a major world power in any sense (political, industrial, economic, etc.). But I may be ignorant, having never ventured to Argentina.

Semantics, perhaps, and not having much to do with guns.



> Have you ever known government procurement _not_ to be influenced by politics?


The JSSAP tests certainly weren't. But it's one thing to put a bunch of guns through the wringer and choose one that passed all the tests because you want to put missiles in the pistol's country of origin. It's another to only test one pistol and adopt it because it's made in your home country.


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## submoa

Mike Barham said:


> The JSSAP tests certainly weren't. But it's one thing to put a bunch of guns through the wringer and choose one that passed all the tests because you want to put missiles in the pistol's country of origin. It's another to only test one pistol and adopt it because it's made in your home country.


I wouldn't know about the selection process used in Argentina, do you? M9s are made in Maryland.

AHEM... JSSAP POLITICS FREE? HA HA HA :smt082

In 1981, the US Army was given control of the JSSAP pistol trials. 85 requirements were laid down for the winning XM9 pistol; 72 were mandatory while 13 were desirable. Only four pistols were entered: the Beretta 92SB (an improved 92S-1), the HK P7M13, the S&W 459A, and the SIG-Sauer P226. However, all four failed, and strangely, the Beretta finished dead last, even behind the M1911A1.

Congress and the GAO were infuriated by the waste of money with no apparent results. Procurement funds for additional .45 ACP ammunition was withheld until the US Army could formulate a test series that a manufacturer could pass. The XM9 trials started again in January 1984. During the mean time, Beretta had improved the 92SB again, calling the resulting pistol the 92SB-F. The competitors included the Colt SSP, the FN Double Action Hi-Power, the HK P7M13, the SIG-Sauer P226, the S&W 459, the Steyr GB, and the Walther P88. In the end, only the P226 and 92SB-F were considered to have passed all of the tests.

After a series of bids in which SIG-Sauer was the low bidder, Beretta was finally given the contract due to a lower price quoted on its spare parts. Needless to say, SIG-Sauer was extremely annoyed, and there were allegations that Beretta was shown SIG-Sauer's final bid in order to under-cut it. Moreover, the other manufacturers were upset for a variety of reasons. Several had worked up bids before they were told that they were in fact not eligible. Moreover, S&W's pistols had failed due to a mathematical error while converting to English units from Metric in determining firing pin energy.

After a series of GAO and Congressional investigations, another series of tests similar to the XM9 trials were ordered for 1987. However, these started off with controversy as well. The US Army fought to keep the 92F (now the M9) from being retested since it had passed the XM9 trials. SIG-Sauer insisted that the P226 didn't need to retested either since it had passed XM9 as well. On the other hand, S&W noted that the Beretta M9s were no longer being built to the standards of the XM9 trials, having received relaxation of several requirements including accuracy.

Around the same time, reports of M9 slide separations were becoming rampant in both the US Navy and Army. The Navy SEALs were arguably abusing their pistols by firing over-pressure ammunition in suppressed examples, while the Army's separations were blamed on the use of recycled slides from a French contract which contained tellurium. Events were becoming so bad that a Safety-of-Use message recommended that slides be replaced after 3000 rounds had been fired; however, this recommendation was lowered to 1,000 rounds after a M9 suffered a slide separation with less than 3,000 rounds fired.

Beretta took a two-pronged response. First, they sued the Department of the Navy because the SEAL Teams had leaked info of the slide separations to Ruger. Second, they designed a hammer pin with an over-sized head to fit into a groove machined in the slide. Thus, if the slide separated, it would not strike the user in the face. Commercially, these pistols are known as the 92FS

The XM10 tests were finally rescheduled for 1988 after being canceled the year before for lack of participation. Beretta refused to submit samples, so the US Army used off-the-shelf M9s. Beretta protested this, but since they had already refused samples, this protest was rejected. SIG-Sauer also refused to submit samples, standing on principle that they had passed XM9 the first time. S&W submitted their 459 again, and Ruger submitted their new P85.

Again, there were allegations of impropriety. The Army refused to relax their requirement for a chrome-lined bore, even if the barrel was made from stainless steel. Moreover, the S&W failed tests that they had passed in XM9. They were the only pistols to pass the XM9 accuracy requirements, yet they failed the XM10. The S&W also failed the corrosion tests in spite of the fact that the affected parts which failed XM10 were made from stainless steel, while the same parts in the successful XM9 samples were made from carbon steel. Ruger wasn't provided any reasons as to why their samples failed.

PS.

"Third World" is 20th Century obsolete, based on ideology that doesn't even exist. Under a more applicable economic definition... GDP of Argentina outpaces New Orleans.


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## akr

Drew_Rami_P said:


> I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues. My wife has a .380cc and she loves it. We would definitly buy Bersa again.


I think you nailed it right on the head.


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## Mike Barham

I have no idea how the Argentinians selected the pistol. That's why I asked you for a link. :mrgreen:

I agree that the JSSAP tests were affected by politics, hence my comment on the missiles. Not only that, the Air Force seemed to have an institutional bias toward the Beretta. But at least the tests were stringent and the Beretta passed them all. It's a good pistol, and it works reliably over here for us. I honestly don't think the domestic pistols tested were as good, though I grant that the SIG P226 is also an excellent pistol.

Slide separations with the Beretta weren't "rampant," to the best of my knowledge. Do you have a hard number on how many actually happened? I am only aware of about a dozen. Which sucks if you're the guy it happens to, but a dozen out of hundreds of thousands isn't what I'd call "rampant." That's just hyperbole.


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## submoa

Mike Barham said:


> I have no idea how the Argentinians selected the pistol. That's why I asked you for a link. :mrgreen:


I have no idea about Argentine procurement process, just the issue of the pistol to their LE. Therefore I question your assertion that they, "only test one pistol and adopt it because it's made in your home country".



Mike Barham said:


> I agree that the JSSAP tests were affected by politics, hence my comment on the missiles. Not only that, the Air Force seemed to have an institutional bias toward the Beretta. But at least the tests were stringent and the Beretta passed them all. It's a good pistol, and it works reliably over here for us. I honestly don't think the domestic pistols tested were as good, though I grant that the SIG P226 is also an excellent pistol.


The version you use is the equivalent of the 92FS. Slide failures occurred on the 92F. Continued use of M9 nomenclature masks this change.

SIG Sauer is a Swiss/German company. SIG P226 also passed all tests but was passed over due to spares pricing. A cloud of corruption stains Beretta's quote as there are claims that SIGs pricing was leaked to them prior to their submission. Your comments about Air Force bias and missile deployment lends credibility to claims of undo political influence in the procurement process. Given the history, I prefer the M11 to the M9 in the field.



Mike Barham said:


> Slide separations with the Beretta weren't "rampant," to the best of my knowledge. Do you have a hard number on how many actually happened? I am only aware of about a dozen. Which sucks if you're the guy it happens to, but a dozen out of hundreds of thousands isn't what I'd call "rampant." That's just hyperbole.


Beretta M9 slide separation is well documented in the January 1989 GAO report http://archive.gao.gov/d15t6/137930.pdf. At that time the M9 was not fully deployed from the initial contract.

An overview of the M9 slide failure issue and its handling is available http://www.thegunzone.com/m9-a.html. Slide failures were associated with Tellurium (Te), an additive used to control shape, but reduced fracture toughness. Te slides were not used in original XM9 trials but introduced in production. To minimize injury, Beretta increased the size of the hammer pivot (92F to 92FS). Later, Te was quietly removed from Beretta slide metallurgy.

Total count of Navy SEAL slide failures in the field is classified.

In the end, it appears that Beretta provided 'ringers' for the XM9 (JASSP) evaluations, cost cut in production, got caught, and now produce the reliable, but different, gun you are using today.


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## Mike Barham

I wasn't "asserting" that's what the Argentinians did, merely speculating that it would be a lousy way to choose a pistol compared to a more extensive testing regimen. Since neither of us know about the procurement process, though, my guess is as good as yours about how they selected it.

So then you don't have an actual number on the slide failures, but state that they were "rampant?" 

I realize a lot of people are biased against the Beretta. It's not my favorite pistol either, but I have seen many in service and have observed them to be utterly reliable and long-lived pistols, even under poor conditions.


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## submoa

Mike Barham said:


> So then you don't have an actual number on the slide failures, but state that they were "rampant?"


Per my previous post, the January 1989 GAO report on slide failures (http://archive.gao.gov/d15t6/137930.pdf) shows rampant slide failure was a fact for the 92SBF (92F) chosen to be M9. Since you didn't seem to like it, I'll quote from an earlier September 1988 GAO report (http://archive.gao.gov/d16t6/136824.pdf) that you might like better, Quality and Safety Problems with the Beretta M9 Handgun.


The first laboratory slide failure, which occurred on February 8, 1988, involved an Army M9 firing NAKI standard U.S.-produced M882 ammunition. This weapon was one of three M9 handguns being tested for problems related to the barrel. As part of the test, all three weapons had been inspected after 6,000 rounds using a scanning election microscope (SEM) or magnetic particle inspection (MPI) process, and there were no indications of slide cracks. When the M9 slide failure occurred at 6,007 rounds, the broken slide and the slides on the other two test weapons were removed for metallurgical evaluation. The evaluation showed that one of the other slides also had fatigue cracks. This evaluation marked the beginning of an Army slide failure test program to determine why the failures had occurred.

The Army replaced the slides on the three weapons and continued to fire the M9s, using NATO standard ammunition, until each broke. One slide failed at 4,908 rounds, another failed at 21,942 rounds, and the third failed at 21.486 rounds.

The next grouping test results for four other weapons: one M9 and three Army-owned commercial (92SBF) handguns. The slide on the M9 failed after 7,806 rounds, and the slides on the three 92SBFs failed at 17,408, 21,264, and 24,656 rounds.

In 1985, the Army acquired three commercial 92SBFs for testing to determine which part would fail first. The first part to fail was a barrel. After the barrel failed, the Army suspended testing and inspected the weapons using an WI process. The inspection showed slide cracks on all three weapons. Because slides are considered spare parts and there had not been any slide failures at that point in time, the cracked slides did not raise any specific concerns.

The final grouping of weapons involved three M9s that were being tested as part of an annual comparison test. After the weapons were fired 10,000 rounds, the slides were inspected using the MPI process and one slide was cracked. The Army decided to fire all three weapons until the slides failed. Slide failure occurred at the 23,310 round mark on one weapon, 30,083 on another weapon, and 30,545 on the third weapon.​
When every production M9 (92SBF/92F) randomly selected for testing actually fails due to slide failure, and at a low round count, yes I'd say the problem was rampant.



Mike Barham said:


> I realize a lot of people are biased against the Beretta.


Don't be so defensive. I was responding to your statement, "The JSSAP tests certainly weren't," (influenced by politics). Sarcasm is hard to hear on an internet forum. I stated that JSSAP result was a gun with rampant slide failures and backed up my statement with facts. If I do have a bias, its against political interference in military procurement. Approve testing criteria, set a budget, then stay the hell away.



Mike Barham said:


> have observed them to be utterly reliable and long-lived pistols, even under poor conditions.


As I stated before, the gun currently in use as the M9 is the Beretta 92FS. The 92FS is a reliable and durable gun. The 92FS only exists because of the slide failure controversy with the *92SBF/92F*pistol selected by JSSAP to be the M9. You can thank the rampant slide failures of the 92SBF/92F for the 92SF that you use today.


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## akr

I love my 96FS. :smt033


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## DevilsJohnson

Getting back to the Bersa thing. i bought one a while back thinking it might make a good backup type thing and it wasn't much money so I wouldn't cry too much if it wasn't all that good. I can say it's a pretty good pistol. It does what I would expect of anything in the caliber I was using (380) 

_______________________________________________________________

As to this huge thing about those Barettas..people are going to like what they like. Though to compare a 92 Beretta to a 226 Sig for me would be a no brainer. I all about the 226 in that race. I've owned both and I kept the Sig. Why? Because it was more accurate, more reliable, and feels better in my hand. 

I don't much care what tests say especially in the government is involved. I had run my own tests. Thousands of rounds at 25-50 yards(Figuring if I can group in under 3" there I'm good at the 21 feet most all states CCW qualifies). I really like how the Sig breaks down over the Beretta too. The Sig was/is hands down the better of the two there. In fact. The Sig P226 is probably the most accurate Military type pistol I have shot period, though I will admit that the 226 I have shoots a little better than others I have got to hold and send lead down range. After shooting several of both I still have my opinion. 

_______________________________________________________________

Now..Back o the Bersa. anyone getting one I would strongly advise getting to know it really well. Make sure to use only ammo that feeds easy for a couple hundred rounds and it will turn out to be a pretty good little pistol. The 380 is a little tough to take down at first but like most things..Everything is a pain in the rear untill you're used to it:smt082 I've not owned th 9mm but have shot a couple..Not too bad:watching:


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## akr

The Sig 226 costs a lot more, and it should have the edge.


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## Mike Barham

*submoa*, I concede your point on the 92F. I was unable to download the PDF file (bandwidth here sucks), so I appreciate you quoting the second for me. I do not know how many 92F failures occurred in the field/range, but I accept the laboratory evidence.

I think you misunderstood my comment on the JSSAP tests, or I wrote poorly. I was trying to reply to your statement about "test _not_ being influenced by politics" by agreeing that the JSSAP tests *were* politically influenced by our desire to put missiles in Italy. I think there was also some personal bias toward the Beretta with the Air Force testing personnel.

Quite honestly, I think the SIG P226 is a better pistol than the M9, and would rather they'd selected it. But I do think the (current) M9 is a fine service sidearm, regardless of how it was finally achieved. It's certainly been tested a lot. ;-)


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## submoa

NP Mike,

I get pretty riled up about instances where new weapons get rushed into service because of politics. M9 was one example. M16 before they chrome lined the bores and issued cleaning kits is another. The SA80 is the worst not only because they replaced the L1A1 SLR with a total POS, but because it took 18 years before they brought in HK in to fix it (L85A2 upgrade).

In the software industry Version 1.0 syndrome means a reboot. In military procurement, Version 1.0 gets people killed or maimed.


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## WoodLark

Ssshhhh! Don't tell anyone how good the Bersa's are; its hard enough now to find magazines for them.

I have both the 9UC and 45UC. The 9 has been totally trouble free right out of the box. The 45 had some feeding problems initially, but has been getting better as it breaks in. Surprisingly it had less problems with hollow points (Taurus Hex) than with ball (WWB).


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## Longtooths

What is this thread about again, hmmm lets look....



bryan1966 said:


> I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa? Most of the negative statments are mad from IMO are people who think they can shoot but really dont know how. I know I will catch crap for that but it is true. And for the record I am an ex-cop, ex-military, and was on the Air Force EST teams as a sniper. So I think I know how to shoot and shoot well. Your responses are welcomed


When i was looking to purchase a small inexpensive back up gun I stumbled accross the Bersa and the P3at. My father-in-law purchased one first and noted that he liked it fairly well. I have a chance to shoot it and liked it very much. Therefore I made my decision to buy one and have never looked back. I wish I could honestly say that I don't care what others think about guns and that I make my own decisions. But that would be incorrect. I listen to what others say, and at most they will cause me to shoot a gun first before deciding on it.

I am happy with both of my Bersa Thunder .380's as well as my Bersa .380CC model. I fluff, buff and clean my guns religiously and have had no failures of any kind on all three.


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## firestorm40

just so you guys know the buenos aires police carry the bersa and so do some of the argentinian police agencies. just a little bit of info


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## BJElliott

That was probably the best answer to a question I have been wondering for a long time! Thanks pal! BJ


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## tnjack

Mike Barham said:


> Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.
> 
> :mrgreen:


The company was founded in the mid 1950's by Italian immigrants Benso Bonadimani, Ercole Montini and Savino Caselli, all of them mechanical engineers. Montini worked for Beretta in Italy. At the beginning they were producing parts for the now defunct Argentinian arms manufacturer Ballester Molina. Their first handgun was a modified version of a Ballester model which they called "Luan", combining the first two letters of the last names of the 2 designers of the pistol, Luce and Antonovich. The gun didn't have much commercial success and very few of them were produced; nowadays they are quite rare collector's items.

The Modelo 62, one of the early BERSAs 
BERSA Rifle cal. 22 LR 
BERSA ShotgunsIn 1959 the first 22 Long Rifle pistol was commercialized, called "Modelo 60", which later evolved in the "Modelo 62", and based on a modified Beretta design, it sold extremely well. In 1960 the name "BERSA" was finally introduced, it is made up from the initial letters of the founder's first names. Many more successful models in increasingly more powerful calibers were produced in the following years, making BERSA a well known and respected name in the firearms world. In 1989 the first full size combat pistol was introduced, the Model 90, chambered for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge.

In 1994 a new model name for the entire production line was introduced, "Thunder", followed by a number indicating the handgun caliber. However the Thunder series in reality include two totally different designs in mechanics and appearances; for cartridges up to and included the 380 ACP the handguns are compact in size (except for the Thunder 22-6 which is a 22 LR target competition pistol with a 6" barrel) and based on a blowback system, for more powerful rounds, starting with the 9x19mm Parabellum, the Thunder line is based on a locked breech and short recoil modified Browning design.

At the end of the 1990s BERSA won the contract for supplying a new standard sideram for the Argentina Armed Forces and Argentina Federal Police that were looking to replace their aging Browning Hi-Power pistols. The BERSA Thunder 9, an evolution of the Model 90, was chosen.

In the past BERSA also produced 22 Long Rifle caliber long guns and single and double barreled shotguns but they did not have the same commercial success of the pistols and they have been discontinued.

[edit] Overview
BERSA is nowadays one of the largest privately owned corporations in Argentina. It produces, among many handguns, the very popular BERSA Thunder 380 and the BERSA Thunder 9 pistols and the Utra Compact series of the Thunder chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The company is well known among firearm enthusiasts for producing high quality guns at very reasonable prices and it spends very little money on advertisement. Lifetime warranty coverage is provided to the original owners. However, firearms made by such companies can cost as much as twice or more compared to a BERSA pistol in the same caliber and with similar features. The Argentine company is often influenced by the German firearms manufacturer Walther in the design of its handguns; the Thunder 22, 32 and 380 are basically clones of the famous Walther PP and PPK while the Thunder 9 and 40 are somewhat similar in appearance and some mechanical aspects to the Walther P88. For many products in the past, a similar source of technical "inspiration" was Beretta. The full size Thunder combat pistol is the standard sidearm of the Argentina Armed Forces (Thunder 9), Argentina Federal Police (Thunder 9), Buenos Aires Provincial Police (Thunder 9) and several other Law Enforcement agencies (Thunder 9 & 40).

The Model 90 Combat Pistol, forerunner of the Thunder 9 
BERSA Thunder 22-6 cal. 22 Long RifleThe Thunder 22 pistol chambered for the 22 Long Rifle cartridge is widely used among recreational shooters in Latin America and the Thunder 22-6, a longer and thicker barrel version of this handgun, is used in more serious competitions. Team BERSA, equipped with Thunder 9 and Thunder 40 pistols, has won several IPSC matches. The Thunder 32 and 380 handguns sell very well in countries that ban the use of more powerful cartridges for civilian personal defense purposes. The Thunder 380 is immensely popular in the US market as a small and light, easy concealable, high quality and competitively priced personal defense handgun.

I think this should answer your question about military use and/or reliability.


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## HvyMtl

TNjack - as in the Bersa talk member? 

Hello. HvyMtl

Anyway, I own a Ultra Compact 45 Bersa. The deal it this - $350 - comes with 2 magazines

The issue I think relates to the older versions of the model which had one spring instead of the dual springs they have now. 

True, you can buy a Taurus for around $299, but it is not set up for ambidexterous (spelling not strong point) use out of the box. 

I like the dual action safety/decocker and the grip design. 

I am no strongman - far from it, but I can easily one hand this with either hand.

I believe it is a little to do with the gun snobbery out there. 

Yes, I have fired a Sig Sauer, Browning, and I have fired a $3k 1911 Caspian. I like my Bersa better. 

Don't expect the fit and finish of a $600+ handgun. Expect it to work.


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## nelskc

My understanding of XD's is that they have been used extensively by the Croatian military and Croatian polices forces as of the late 90's (assuming it is the same product basic product that is imported and sold in the US). I would be curious to see if those agencies conducted high round counts or torture tests like have been performed on Glocks.


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## oak1971

Buy what suits you, and shoot the piss out of it. End of test. Duh.


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## curly

I own two Bersa pistols, a .380 and a Thunder .380 and really like them. As far as reliability, any issues that I have had with them are my lack of proper cleaning. The main reason I bought my first Bersa was because of how well the pistol fit my hand..... I was sold instantly. I added a set of rubber finger-groove grips (factory grips) and that even made them feel better IMO.

On a side note, where is the best <cheapest> place to get a factory clip for a Thunder .380?


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## IndyRob

curly said:


> On a side note, where is the best <cheapest> place to get a factory clip for a Thunder .380?


It's a magazine, not a clip :numbchuck: But seriously, I've found mags for Bersa's for $26.95 @ 
yourgunparts.com

& $27.97 @ gunsatcost.com


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## jediwebdude

Mike Barham said:


> I don't know how one can definitively say the XD is, overall, as reliable as the Glock in the absence of actual objective evidence that it is.
> 
> I think the XD is a fine pistol, but it doesn't have _nearly_ the track record that the Glock does, and hasn't been put through nearly the multiple wringers the Glock has. The info we have on the XD so far comes mainly from the results of a few tests conducted by amateurs on single specimens of the gun. That's a pretty far cry from the mounds of testing done on Glocks by professional militaries and LE agencies.
> 
> And the Glock has a lower bore axis and a shorter trigger reset. :mrgreen:


I realize that this is an old discussion, but I couldn't resist replying. When I was at a gun store last year and was looking at a Glock 9mm with composite underbody, the salesman pulled an XD-9 out of the case and said "let's compare." He took both pistols apart and showed me differences in construction. The XD appeared to be better built and more durable, so I purchased it. I realize that the information provided to me by the salesman is no substitute for long-term durability testing, but I do feel more confident shooting the XD in the range because of the differences he pointed out.

-PJ


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## mharveyww1

*ANY manufacturer can turn out a lemon.*

Re: the Springfield Armory post.

Just yesterday I read an online rant by a very unhappy new owner of a Springfield 9mm EMP. Trust me - if I had a $1,000+ handgun that was as troublesome as his...I'd be ranting too!
But, just a few days before, I had bought _my own 9mm EMP and put over 500 trouble-free, nearly-joyous rounds through it.
It may turn out to be the most satisfying handgun I've ever owned (and I've owned well over 100).

So what is the typical owner experience with a Springfield Armory handgun?
I tend to think that the unhappy owner simply got a "lemon". Somehow it slipped through QC. Otherwise we wouldn't see so many prospective buyers shelling out the kind of $$$ it takes to get one of their top-of-the-line 1911's.

I can also directly relate to the Bersa "question", having bought a .380CC for my wife about a year ago. It seemed to have at least one FTE per magazine!
Just as I was about to trade it in, another Bersa owner urged me to hold off until I had put a couple-hundred rounds through it. Since my wife loved the fit and feel of the gun, I grudgingly agreed to do so.
Wonder of wonders! Some time shortly after 200 rounds the Bersa began to function flawlessly...and it continues to do so.

And, ironically, JUST TODAY I was in one of the largest gun stores in the area
(Central Florida) and a rather elderly couple was looking for a "small gun for self-defense". The salesman was pitching them on a Ruger LCP...for $500!!!
Aside from the price, the couple said it just didn't feel right in their hands.
I suggested they take a look at the Bersa .380.
The salesman refused to even show them one! He said "no, they're just junk". I asked, if that's the case why they would SELL "junk"? 
He threw up his hands and walked away!!!
The couple decided to shop elsewhere.

Mike_


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## Atltech

I own a 380 Plus and have no problem staking my life on it.To date I have shot about 500 rounds thru it with some jamming issues when it was new.
This seems to be a common complaint for most small caliber CC pistols.
After it was "broke in" it has performed perfectly every shot.
I can feed just about any brand of ammo with no complaints.It does what it was designed to do very well.
I trust this weapon,I don't like the current price of .380 AUTO ammo.
For what it's worth,my friends have all had similar experences with their "other"
brand of guns.Actually my Bersa seems to be the less finickey of the bunch..
Go fiqure...


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## literaltrance

I've never shot a Bersa, but I did hold a 45ACP Thunder about a month ago. I must confess it sure did feel like a whole lot of gun for $350 and I'm sure they can be had for cheaper. Hell, I was tempted to buy it in the hopes it would suffer from some feeding issues so I could turn it into a gunsmithing project!

At any rate, it had a tight fit and was plenty comfortable. It's also among the few ranks of compact firearms with a safety (at least it sure looked like a manual safety). Assuming it doesn't have reliability issues, it's a steal at $350 to obtain a concealable weapon like this.


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## Benevolentshooter

I recently took my wife to the range for the first time and she instantly fell in love with shooting. When we returned home she began to search the internet for a gun she could carry. After a couple of days she came to me with this add for a bersa thunder 380. In the two weeks since she first shot we have returned to the range twice and she has learned alot about shooting(even out performing my novice shooting MALE friend. Who although i have told him otherwise seems to think that if he aims at the ground he will hit the target with the kick of the gun lol) At first all i could say is i have heard of bersa nothing good nothing bad just heard of them. Now after two weeks of research i am going to purchase the gun. Inexpensive does not always meen cheap, and inexpensive now dosent always meen inexpensive tommorow. If any of you remember in the early 90's you could get a russian made SKS for 100 bucks all day long now they retail where i live for 3 to 4 hundred. So i am getting my "cheap" gun now while they are still that way, and thanks to you guys im sure it will be a fine and dependable gun. 
Side note i didnt care for most of the keltek pistols too small too long on the trigger as would be expected. I dual purpse all my pistols for personal security and range fun. I just dont think the keltek would be range worthy.


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## Benevolentshooter

One more note. My brother is a cop and sometimes i go shooting with him and some of his friends. Now i was in the millitary but learned to shoot long before i joined for my 4 short years, and i only saw live amunition in a pistol 3 times during those years. At any rate by alot of your standards i would be considered an amature shooter and i consistently out shoot the "profesional" shooters (cops) all the time. Being a cop or in the millitary dosnt make you a great shooter practice does. and incidnetly there is no set regiment of pracitice in my brothers station which is a major metropolitan police station. Most of his friends see the range 4 to 10 times a year where as i shoot 2 to 4 times a month, so whos the amature shooter?


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## nighthawk74

literaltrance said:


> I've never shot a Bersa, but I did hold a 45ACP Thunder about a month ago. I must confess it sure did feel like a whole lot of gun for $350 and I'm sure they can be had for cheaper. Hell, I was tempted to buy it in the hopes it would suffer from some feeding issues so I could turn it into a gunsmithing project!
> 
> At any rate, it had a tight fit and was plenty comfortable. It's also among the few ranks of compact firearms with a safety (at least it sure looked like a manual safety). Assuming it doesn't have reliability issues, it's a steal at $350 to obtain a concealable weapon like this.


How was the recoil?


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## AC_USMC 03

honestly i hav enever heard of bersa maybe they do not advertise enough


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## clanger

Why all the hate? 

Because a lot of Sheeple are 'gun snobs' running with the flock. Unless it's one of the pricey 'big 3', "it's junk", according to most 'group huggers' seeking interweb approvals.

There's nothing that does not break. Sooner or later, everyting will fail. For one reason or another. 

We've got Bersa's, Rossi's, Taurus', FireStorm's as well as high-end stuff. They are all more accurate than most can hold. They all run like champs (on factory and re-loads) untill they need something. 

More $ don't always = more better. Fancier? Yes. Better? Depends on your definitiion. 

I've shot some REALLY expensive custom stuff that I'd be a tad reluctent to trust my life with. 
Nice to look at, tight as a drum, uber-gucci and all that stuff? Yep, it should be for that money. 

But gimme an old, well worn 'shake-rattle-n-roll' when the fight starts though, anyday. And I can't see, nor could not care less, what name is stamped on it when it goes *bang*.


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## gschnarr

One of the reasons you do not hear of Bersa very often, is that they do not advertise which helps keep the cost down. Right now, I have 2 bersas and am looking for a third. People hate them because they are inexpensive, accurate, but not "look at this wonder gun-but don't touch it or drop it. It only cost 4 arms and a leg". Both my wife and I have no problem entrusting our lifes to them.


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## recoilguy

Wow I bet most people who "hate " Bersa never took the time to shoot one. I have heard people give my SR-9's a load of bad mouthing, My Bersa Thunder CC a bunch of bad mouthing and I am looking at a Stoeger Cougar right now and have heard my gun friends laugh that I would stoop so low. All of them have lost alot of respect from me because of their narrow mindedness. I own a Harley but I also own a Suzuki and a Kawasaki. I hear the same ignorant retoric from motorcycle people I am hearing from gun people. It bumms me out. 

Look for the good in the gun and allow the owner to enjoy his choice and take pride in his or her weapon. A Glock was untested at one time too. If buying a Bersa expands the group of people that do what we do it is a good thing. If buying a Bersa allows someone to protect them self for 350 bucks as opposed go unprotected because they can not afford 600 bucks and their bills cut them slack. 

RCG

.........It's that you shoot!


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## rachilders

FWIW, I've owned a Bersa UC-45 for almost five years and several Bersa 9mm's for 1-5 years, depending on the particular gun. My wife shoots a Bersa 380 as BUG for her S&W "J" frame 38. My UC-45 has several thousand rounds through it and the Bersa 9's from 1,000 (the newest) to at least 4,000 for the oldest. With the exception of my UC-45 when it was new, *NONE* of my Bersa's has ever had a problem of any kind, period! Those initial problems I eventually discovered were due to weak recoil springs installed in certain production runs of the 45. My particular pistol was an early production model and I guess the bugs hadn't been completely removed by the factory. OTOH, after the cause of my problems was determined, that problem was corrected with new springs and I've never experienced another problem with the gun. Except for a Ruger P-85 I bought new in 1988 (which I still own) my Bersa's have been the most reliable and user friendly pistols I've ever owned. I currently own several SIG's, Rugers, CZ's and K-T pistols - to name a few - in addition to my Bersa's. I would gladly put my Bersa's up against any of them in quality and reliability. :smt023

BTW, Bersa is the official pistol of the Argentine military as well as many local police forces in Argentina, where Bersa is made. I can only assume these organizations would not use a weapon that had problems with reliability. If you want to get the real lowdown on the "big" caliber Bersa pistols in 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP you should check the main Bersa forum, http://bersatalk.com.


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## bertobruca

Mike Barham, I am buying a Bersa .380 from a pawn shop locally, and I'm concerned about the coil spring on the ejector (it may be worn) Should I order a new one right off or wait til put some rounds throught it? And what type do you recommend?
Bertobruca


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## smiley

On the low price issue, the Argentine economy is in really bad shape, so they have a low exchange rate with the dollar and we can get a good quality handgun for a low U.S. price. I think that if Argentina's economy was as strong as Germany's for example, you'd see the Bersa have a bigger price tag - which is one of the reasons Sigs are more expensive. 

Almost all of the reviews I have seen rate the quality of Bersa very high; great features for a great price in Bersa's case means value, not cheap!

Smiley


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## smiley

Almost everything I read about the Bersa Thunder 9s and 45s is very good. I have heard more good about them than the 380.

Well made, good shooters, dependable, great features (with the exception of the finish, which is no big deal to me).
Most reviews describe no FTFs and FTEs.

The ultra-compact 9s and 45s get great ratings. Personally, I like the weight and balance of the UC 9, and I have large hands. To me, it has a great feel. 

The price is good because of the exchange rate, not cheap because of quality issues.


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## BigDaveP

bryan1966 said:


> I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa?


I don't claim to know how to shoot, but I can say my UC9 compact has chewed through a few thousand rounds with nary a flaw... it's a superb gun, with most of the controls on both sides for lefties like me, very easy to shoot straight, eats all kinds of ammo including the steel cases, and the compact holds 13 rds... that's BIG for a designated compact carry gun.. wife's Glock 26 is 10, or 12 with a new style of mag..

This Bersa is fabulous for the money, and compares well without even considering cost.. conventional hammer, but it's skeletonized... and unlike the glock, I can chamber a round and flip up the safety, and carry it with hammer down on a round in full safe mode. Pull it out of the pocket, flip down the safety and shoot 14 in a row, pulling double action on the first one. Safe, easy, not much thinking involved when you're reacting to something... it's the perfect conceal carry for me. all steel, rugged enough, should last a nice long time...


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## falchunt

I have shot more than one Bersa. They are crap. I don't care who loves them or how many they own. Nobody is going to convince me that Bersas are of high quality. I won't tell anyone they are foolish for owning one, but I wouldn't reccommend them to anyone either. That is just my experience with them. Just so we are clear.....I have shot two brand new Bersa's (one 45, and i believe the other was a 9mm, It has been years since i shot the 9mm) and an older 380. I had cycling problems with the two newer ones. They were both owned by a friend of mine. He laughed and said "that's normal". I didn't think it was very funny. the 380 just slung lead all over the place. I think it had about a 16" group from 6 yards.


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## recoilguy

One thing I have noticed about Bersa folk is their extreme hate for other brands. I am not sure if it is a complex they have or just admission to the "Bersa Club" They bad mouth every other brand except the might Kel-Tec as if it justifies paying 350 for a weapon.

I have witnessed more hate from Bersa folks then I have towards Bersas in my pistol owning and shooting experiance. 

RCG


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## mactex

RCG, I have had the same feelings. I own two Bersas and had ongoing problems with both of them. The BT-380 I eventually fixed myself but could not post the fix on the BersaTalk Forum due to the admins rules. My 380cc has been to the favored gun smith on the forum twice for the same problem without resolution. Posting my experiences on BersaTalk got me nothing but silly messages about how I didn't know how to shoot a gun or that I should send the gun in again. Funny, I've been shooting for almost 30 years. I thought I had a pretty good idea about how to work a pistol. As for sending it in again, that would mean again spending quite a bit to ship to ship an inexpensive gun that I'm not convinced can be fixed based on prior experience with it.


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## recoilguy

It's too bad because they aren't an undesirable weapon and a lot of people shot now because they can afford a Bersa. As a matter of fact (well really my opinion) Bersas are a decent pistol. If someone is on a limited budget or wants to become a shooter or protect themself I think Bersa is a very wise choice. Owning a Bersa and being protected is way better then no being protected. Being able to go to the range with a Bersa is better for the shooting sport then to have someone not go.

I haven't got anything against Bersa, I do not own one anymore, but the rabid Bersa owners hatred for plastic and their uncanny ability to dig up every other companies recalls and problems and then write their own shortcomings off so casually is unsettling. I understand loyalty, but I do not understand justifying by bad mouthing. It seems to be a popular Bersa owners trait. That is not saying anything bad about the gun or Bersa as a weapon. 

RCG


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## BigDaveP

recoilguy said:


> It's too bad because they aren't an undesirable weapon and a lot of people shot now because they can afford a Bersa. As a matter of fact (well really my opinion) Bersas are a decent pistol. If someone is on a limited budget or wants to become a shooter or protect themself I think Bersa is a very wise choice. Owning a Bersa and being protected is way better then no being protected. Being able to go to the range with a Bersa is better for the shooting sport then to have someone not go.
> 
> I haven't got anything against Bersa, I do not own one anymore, but the rabid Bersa owners hatred for plastic and their uncanny ability to dig up every other companies recalls and problems and then write their own shortcomings off so casually is unsettling. I understand loyalty, but I do not understand justifying by bad mouthing. It seems to be a popular Bersa owners trait. That is not saying anything bad about the gun or Bersa as a weapon.
> 
> RCG


Haven't done any recall-comps or any research at all, really.. just keep taking my UC9 to the range and staying happy.. I'm upwards of 3k rounds now, gun still perfect.. had an FTE on very first magazine, but it was a limpwrist and I firmed up the grip to put an end to it.. no more, after 3k rounds.. no failures at all... a solid steel, wonderfully built, totally ambidextrous (only the mag release is marooned on the left side, the rest of the controls all appear on both sides, very handy for me as a lefty) pistol... on the heavy side but not so bad...

and it shoots as straight as anything else I've got.. reliable, solidly built, straight shooter... for $350... I just couldn't be happier..

wife has a glock 26 and I like this Bersa MUCH better... I like that I can chamber a round and put it on safe and drop it in my pocket.. pull it out, flick down the safety, pull the first round DA and I'm shooting.. it seems the best way, to me... some ppl say the extra step of the safety introduces doubt as to whether it's ready to shoot... but for me, never having had anything else to use regularly, it's automatic in my mind to flick down that safety when I grab the gun... to each his own, I guess..

Bersa... great gun, whatever the price... if you prefer plastic, never mind.. but a solidly built steel gun doesn't come much better than this.


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## recoilguy

Its good that you like your weapon and have good things to say about it. It is rare that a Bersa Pep doesn't put a Glock or Ruger down in the same sentence they are proping up their gun. Case in point.

No Doubt the UC9 is a good 350 dollar steel pistol. It's not that I perfer plastic by any stretch it's that I like guns. Not just inexpensive straight shooting steel ones.

I have never said a bad thing about the weapons Bersa makes...........in any of the posts I have made. I just made an observation. It must be how you get in the club.

RCG


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## snakedoctor

*Bersa reliability*

As the owner of a Bersa UC .45 since May, I can tell you, that Bersa may be the best kept secret in the handgun market today. I will not lie and say that the Bersa is equal to Glock, Sig etc. What I will say, is that Glock, Sig etc, may COST twice as much, but they are NOT twice the gun. To boot, Bersa has a lifetime warranty. In addition to the .45UC, I will be picking up my new UC 9 Pro later this month. And yes, my .45 has been sent back to the warranty center once...but not for anything mechanical. I felt the dutone finish on the slide was starting to peel, and a had a new slide installed under warranty.


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## Mr.clean

My dad has the same atitude toward Bersa's.Im gonna get one just to make him mad.LOL.


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## mactex

snakedoctor said:


> As the owner of a Bersa UC .45 since May, I can tell you, that Bersa may be the best kept secret in the handgun market today. I will not lie and say that the Bersa is equal to Glock, Sig etc. What I will say, is that Glock, Sig etc, may COST twice as much, but they are NOT twice the gun. To boot, Bersa has a lifetime warranty. In addition to the .45UC, I will be picking up my new UC 9 Pro later this month. And yes, my .45 has been sent back to the warranty center once...but not for anything mechanical. I felt the dutone finish on the slide was starting to peel, and a had a new slide installed under warranty.


Your story is impressive. So many of the louder complaints I've heard on the primary Bersa forum delt with Bersa not warrantying the finishes on their pistols. Congradulations on getting yours fixed!


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## recoilguy

I think a better question is why so little interest in Bersas? Why no activity?

No one even looks at the Bersa forum on here. The bersatalk forum has 15 frequent posters and everyone else just reads it and runs away from it as fast as they can. Bersas aren't bad weapons, as a matter of fact they are nice guns. I understand on a board like this there actually has to be a few of them sold to generate some action. Maybe thats it, I am curious.

RCG


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## The Box

I use a Bersa Thunder 9 Pro HC. I don't have a lot of experience with other models but the full size Bersa fits my hand well and I like the heft of it as well as the large magazine. It seems that most who swear by Bersa use the UC's and I see very little commentary on the HC version. I can tell you it shoots as straight as I do and has never failed at the range.

Mark me down as a Bersa supporter.


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## Rys2k8Altima

Well, after reading this, Im actually considering a Thunder 9 Pro HC. Shame no ranges around here have Bersas to shoot at the range. Oh well, for 350 USD, I guess I really cant complain


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## Freedom1911

Rys2k8Altima said:


> Well, after reading this, Im actually considering a Thunder 9 Pro HC. Shame no ranges around here have Bersas to shoot at the range. Oh well, for 350 USD, I guess I really cant complain


Thunder HC9mmPro is a great gun. I have one and recently purchased a laser sight from my brother for it.

Bersa is a great brand that gets little recognition due to the almost non-existent advertising here in the states. Bersa is made in Argentina and the full size Thunder combat pistol is the standard sidearm of the Argentina Armed Forces (Thunder 9), Argentina Federal Police (Thunder 9), Buenos Aires Provincial Police (Thunder 9) and several other Law Enforcement agencies (Thunder 9 & 40).

So in that region of their world, Bersa is counted on by the good guys daily. Until just a few years ago I had never heard of FNH. or HK. so it is not surprising that many have not heard of Bersa.
Most people know, S&W, Ruger, Browning,Colt, Winchester and the other big name American founded brands. But there are many that have never even heard of Springfield.
No lie. I have a friend that lives in Ill, BIG gun guy. When I told him about my Springfield XDm he said. He never looked at generic guns. I asked him if it was the XDm or Springfield he did not know and he said he had never heard of Springfield. This dude is about 50 years old. If he had never heard of Springfield he has probably never heard of Bersa.


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## recoilguy

He is also probably not as BIG a gun dude as he pretends to be. Bersas are nice, cheap guns. I didn't even know Argentina had a military..............so all 6 guys use Bersas, thats cool. (befrore you get nutz it was a joke)

Bersa owners are like miata owners........They justify their products shortcomings by talking about the fact that they do go vroom when you step on the gas and man are they less money so you can put up with a rattle or rust spot or two. They look like the more expensive cars, until you look close. Bersas are a very good weapon for the money it takes to own one.

I used to own a Bersa I do not anymore. It was a good starter gun, I am seriously thinking about getting another one soon, for my daughter to carry. It is a great gun for her, I will not buy a Kel Tec.

RCG


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## Rys2k8Altima

I think Ill get a Bersa, if I can find one easily. I buy this gun and all the break in rounds needed for the same price as the XD M that I want


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## recoilguy

Hold it and make sure it feels good first, then buy it because its cheap and has a good feel to it. Don't buy it because its cheap and then hold it and try to like it because you got some free bullets with it instead of the gun you want.

If you hold it and it feels good, very cool. Then you got a reliable weapon for very little scratch.

RCG


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## meanmachine1961

Local gun store just got in a Bersa Thunder 9 Pro HC. I handled it and it felt really good in hand. It is the first Bersa 9mm that I've seen in person, he usually keeps a few .380s in stock. Seems like a lot of gun for the money.


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## Freedom1911

meanmachine1961 said:


> Local gun store just got in a Bersa Thunder 9 Pro HC. I handled it and it felt really good in hand. It is the first Bersa 9mm that I've seen in person, he usually keeps a few .380s in stock. Seems like a lot of gun for the money.


The BersaHC9Pro is a fine gun. I have one and can speak from experience that the quality and dependability of the Bersa I own is every bit as good as the Glock, XD, XDm, HS2000, Springfield 1911, Walther P99 that I own. 
I am sure to get more guns and I am sure that my Bersa will continue to be a excellent pistol, with quality and performance equal to these new purchases.

I took my BHC9Pro to the range the same day I took my new G17 and New to me HS2000 and it was as accurate right out of the box as the New G17 and the HS that I had purchased from a guy in Arkansas.
If you buy one of these guns you will not be disappointed. This is my third Bersa, each one has been a step up in caliber or frame size. I have never been disappointed in my purchases. Neither will you.:smt1099


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## meanmachine1961

Well I purchased the Bersa HC9Pro this afternoon, I just couldn't resist it! Intended my next purchase to be a .45 or .40 since I already have a couple of 9mm but this gun was just calling out to me. Buy me! Buy me! So I did.


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## JayPee

Congratulations MM1961. I'm sure you'll like it. Here is the text of a range report I did on my Bersa Thunder 9 on another forum last month, at which time it had surpassed 550 rounds without a failure and has now passed the 600 round mark. Here's what I said on the other forum:

"I made it up to the range today for some more "therapy" to my recently surgicalized shooting arm and continued shooting the Bersa Thunder 9. I'd say 95% of the rounds fired were fired in defensive exercises.

The pistol has now passed the 550 round mark without a failure of any kind, and that is with four brands of 115 gr FMJ and three brands of 115 and 124 grain JHP, one being +P and the other two being no slouches in the pressure department. I've double tapped, triple tapped, mag dumped, stagger loaded, didn't clean it for the first 300 rounds, and did everything else I can think of to make an auto pistol fail and it has refused to do so. I rapid fired a ten round aimed string of Gold Dot 124 +P's at a 6 inch bullseye target at 15 yards from the bench and they all went into about a three inch group.

So I'm hangin' in there with my earlier assessment that the Bersa Thunder 9 is not only a very good service pistol, it's probably the best "sleeper" to hit the market since the FEG PJK 9HP's twenty years ago. The Thunder 9 sells for $339 delivered to your FFL dealer from:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/produ....oducts_id/15060

Here's the pistol I'm referring to;









Best wishes"

And here is a quick photo of some accuracy testing I did with it earlier this year.










JP


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## meanmachine1961

Appreciate the info JayPee. Was hoping to put a few rounds thru it today but it is pouring down rain here. Maybe by the weekend.


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## Freedom1911

If your pistol is like mine was right out of the box. You will be extremely happy with it.


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## JayPee

Here are some other reviews of the T9 I've done in the last year in case you're interested...about five of them.

http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?p=196825#post196825

JP


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## Freedom1911

recoilguy said:


> He is also probably not as BIG a gun dude as he pretends to be. Bersas are nice, cheap guns. I didn't even know Argentina had a military..............so all 6 guys use Bersas, thats cool. (befrore you get nutz it was a joke)
> 
> Bersa owners are like miata owners........They justify their products shortcomings by talking about the fact that they do go vroom when you step on the gas and man are they less money so you can put up with a rattle or rust spot or two. They look like the more expensive cars, until you look close. Bersas are a very good weapon for the money it takes to own one.
> 
> I used to own a Bersa I do not anymore. It was a good starter gun, I am seriously thinking about getting another one soon, for my daughter to carry. It is a great gun for her, I will not buy a Kel Tec.
> 
> RCG


Please read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersa


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## recoilguy

That said exactly what I said. 
Thanks for verifying my opinion.
It was indeed longer and had a bit more detail. Itwasn't much of a read however.

RCG


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## Freedom1911

Maybe not. But it is a verifiable source of information concerning the history and departmental uses of the Bersa brand.


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## recoilguy

Good point no sense taking the word of a long time gun owner. With experiance owning many brands to compare. One who knows a lot of other shooters who shoots weekly,shooting many weapons.......its best to get your info from wikipedia. Thank you for setting the record straight.

Bersa what a good weapon for the little bit of money it takes to own one. Worth every penny!

RCG


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## adjohns3

Must be jealous...BERSA is a great value by any standards.

I had to write the distributor in NJ and they were WONDERFUL and responsive...they actually did CUSTOMER SERVICE...as shocking as that might seem in today's world.

The only bad news with BERSA is that more folks are finding out about them and they are harder to find. We want to share good news like this!

:smt1099


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## Sully2

cupsz71 said:


> My observartions:
> 
> *PROS*:
> 1. cost $$$$$
> 2. good CCW size
> 3. safety features
> 4. Very accutate at 8-10 yrds
> 
> *CONS:*
> 1. Caliber size in .380 (for me)
> 2. Hard on the hands after 60+ rounds ...
> 3. Field stripping is a challenge
> oh......not a con of the actual gun......extra mags are HARD to find....


 1. cost $$$$$ When you buy a handgun based on $$$...your just asking for problems
2. Hard on the hands after 60+ rounds .. That would be enough to cool me from buying
3. Field stripping is a challenge...That would be enough to cool me from buying

.extra mags are HARD to find....That would be another BIG negative for me


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## laktrash

New here but I don't understand why field stripping would be a challenge. I have a nickle uc 45 and its easier than most of my autos but you do have be careful with what you clean the nickle finish with,


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## Freedom1911

BTHC9mm is the easiest gun I have ever seen to field strip.
Drop the mag, flip the switch, slide goes off the front.
Could probably do it all with one hand and in a couple seconds with a little practice.


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## Dsig1

Handguns magazine promises an upcoming article that will include Bersa. Look for it.


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## adjohns3

Check out a LOT of info at BERSA.com. They have a nice web site, good user Forums and such support speaks well for the product. If you want to know a lot about a firearm, ask the people who own and use them. Not that having a spiffy site makes a weapon any better, but it does speak to their success when you see their info and support. Some folks don't speak well of Bersa because they come in a BOX, not in a case. Obviously superficial and to help hold down costs.

Several indoor ranges I know/frequent sell and rent Bersa regularly. They always talk about the reliability. I have shot many of them without any issues. My wife has a 380 Thunder with Crimson Trace lasers and it is a winner. It is dead on accurate and again, never an issue. I have a Bersa ultra compact pro 9mm in duotone finish. Great weapon and after MANY rounds, no issues. I do keep it super clean, as we all do (?).
I have a Beretta Storm PX4 9mm sub compact and it is advertised as one of the most accurate guns in the business. It is a GREAT gun for sure but I am not so sure which I would pick if I had to go with Bersa or Beretta. Beretta has been around a LONG time and proven their worth over the years.

I believe the Bersa is one of the greatest values in handguns. Like everything else, it is only what YOU think that should count. If it feels good and you are comfortable when you shoot it, what else matters?
Whether it is guns or guitars, one guy likes Esteban guitars (while most "Experts" would say they are junque), and another swears by Martin or Gibson, the old line forever companies. Individual choice and as long as you are happy...go for it. ENJOY the search...should be FUN.
:mrgreen:


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## Freedom1911

Are you sure on that web address. Bersa.com comes up with a dead web page on my end.


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## Freedom1911

Dsig1 said:


> Handguns magazine promises an upcoming article that will include Bersa. Look for it.


Did they say what month that was going to show in?


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## hyatt76

*longest, most reliable,error proof...why not go with a bowandarrow???http://www.handg*



Mike Barham said:


> Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.
> 
> I know that they've been tested by gun rags, but gun rag "tests" seldom expend more than a couple of hundred rounds, and tend to gloss over any failures anyway.
> 
> And I know lots of people on the internet post about their excellent Bersas. But once again, we almost invariably see opinions based on low round counts, usually just a couple hundred rounds. I think this may be partially because serious shooters who expend lots of ammo are generally attracted to guns with longer and deeper track records than Bersa can currently produce.
> 
> While Bersas may indeed be excellent, long lived, totally reliable pistols, I haven't seen anything that objectively establishes such. I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.
> 
> I'm not saying Bersas are bad pistols at all - I know several people who are very pleased with their Bersa .380s. But I think this is why you see "doubt" about them. When someone takes thirty randomly selected Bersas and puts 10,000 rounds through each of them, then reports mean rounds between failure, number of broken parts if any, and accuracy before and after...well, then I will start taking them seriously as service pistols (assuming they survive the test).
> 
> And I think I have a reasonable idea of how to shoot, and what good shooting looks like. :mrgreen:


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## laktrash

Try www.bersa.com.ar or bersatalk.com or www.bersafirearmusa.com I did just a search on bersa forums and came up with these


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## rondg

Here's 1000+ rounds in one go through a bersa:

http://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/videos/test.html


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## triplerider

I use a Bersa .380 'pimp-daddy' gun (black with gold levers) for SOB carry on occasions where it's really got to be tucked away. It shoots well and easily, and part of that is a bigger grip, for me. I carried a Thunder Pro (I think) .45 for a while but it seemed to be a harsh shooter in my old hands. It required clean slippery magazines to feed correctly. I upgraded it to the current Ruger P345 which feels much more gentle.


----------



## R.Ph. 380

Freedom1911 said:


> Are you sure on that web address. Bersa.com comes up with a dead web page on my end.


 Try www.bersachat.com best info and a lot of fun


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## clarke9mm

*Doubt with Bersa*



bryan1966 said:


> I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa? Most of the negative statments are mad from IMO are people who think they can shoot but really dont know how. I know I will catch crap for that but it is true. And for the record I am an ex-cop, ex-military, and was on the Air Force EST teams as a sniper. So I think I know how to shoot and shoot well. Your responses are welcomed


Love small guns... Owned many... Study CCW and it's tactics... Have owned many Bersas/Firestorms...Don't carry it to defend myself. I have owned (and still own) 22LR, 32 acp, 380 (most models), 9mm, 40... We enjoy shooting these on the range... All of these must be very clean to perform consistently - (our experience)... I have heard mixed results with these firearms... Generally, I trust my own personal results - while cognizant of other's results... and I am very demanding of a firearms - from a point of reliability... We have carried Glock, Ruger sp101/LCP, S&W 442 (no lock 1994/1999 versions), Kahr PM9, Kahr P380(after serious breakin)... There are a lot of good firearms out there...YOU just have to get comfortable with what you are carrying...

If you "work" on the Bersa's... I'm sure they can be pretty reliable... Best of luck...


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## ohioman

ok what is a good breakin shots for a bresa firestorm 380?


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## epsanto2

I own a Bersa 383DA and love it. The first one would not stay open after the last shot, bad slide. Bersa put a new slide on it and 
same thing. The second time I sent it back, they replaced the whole pistol..... not one jam, FTF, or glitch of any kind no matter what I fed it. My only issue with Bersa is they stopped making the clips for it when they stopped making the pistol. (Note to self, buy 
at least four extra clips when buying the pistol. Maybe if they get enough emails at Bersa.com requesting the clips they will make 
them again.) The Bersa is going in the vault with the last good clip I have for it. I just bought a Walther PPK/S and was torn 
between the Walther and the Bersa. Spent the extra money and got the Walther because the trigger felt better and the history with 
out of production clips. I pick the Walther up tomorrow and am ordering extra clips tomorrow as well.


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## WesternGuy

Greetings...

I'm new and just here to research... but thought that I woud add some input to the Bersa chat... since it was one of the top topics when I logged in.

Looks like there are many reasons that people have doubts about Bersa... lack of test data... lack of retail support... lack of respect for the Argintinian factor... and so may ways to spend more money on a Carry gun.

I'll add another. Bersa's are known for a blotchy finish... nothing polished looking about this brand... and very few people would ever be impressed with it.

I am much more impressed by my other Semi-Autos... and none are really expensive (Berettas, Ruger)... but I carry the Bersa Thunder .45... a lot of punch for the size and price.


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## trailblazer

Mike Barham said:


> Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.
> 
> While Bersas may indeed be excellent, long lived, totally reliable pistols, I haven't seen anything that objectively establishes such. I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.
> 
> I'm not saying Bersas are bad pistols at all - I know several people who are very pleased with their Bersa .380s. But I think this is why you see "doubt" about them. When someone takes thirty randomly selected Bersas and puts 10,000 rounds through each of them, then reports mean rounds between failure, number of broken parts if any, and accuracy before and after...well, then I will start taking them seriously as service pistols (assuming they survive the test).
> 
> And I think I have a reasonable idea of how to shoot, and what good shooting looks like. :mrgreen:


 Bersa supplies handguns to both the military & police forces in argentina. i've not seen the results & i'm not sure if they were even made public, bit, i'm sure the guns were tested extensively by these agencies before purchase.

secondly, what percentage of gun owners will ever put 10,000 thru a pistol? i would guess not many. for the average shooter, wondering about 10,000 rd reliability is moot.

TB


----------



## trailblazer

Freedom1911 said:


> Are you sure on that web address. Bersa.com comes up with a dead web page on my end.


Bersa Chat Forum


----------



## denner

I've read of Beretta M9 pistols being tested under U.S. Army supervision at BUSA go 168,000 rounds before a single malfunction, now that's some good testing. "168,000" I still have a hard time believing that claim.


----------



## denner

tumbleweed


----------



## denner

> "Bersa supplies handguns to both the military & police forces in argentina. i've not seen the results & i'm not sure if they were even made public, bit, i'm sure the guns were tested extensively by these agencies before purchase".
> 
> Good point.


----------



## berettatoter

Again, I have had some experience with Bersas, and at their price point, I think they are good solid handguns. The only one I did not like was the CC version of the .380 Thunder. JMHO.


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## recoilguy

Argentina has a military? Who Knew?

Did all 3 guys get a Bersa or do they have to share each guy gets to use it every 8 hours?

Not a knock on Bersa I just actually laughed out loud when I read Argentina military. ......It probably isn't funny but but sure struck me that way today.

RCG


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## Deadwood

I have a Bersa 9UC which I bought last Oct.and has over 2000 + rounds through it so far. It fits my hand beautifully, is very accurate and has a sweet smooth trigger on it. It is very bit as good as my S&W 439, which I bought 24 years ago. Last July I bought the BT 22, and now have over 1000's rounds through it. Another sweet pistol for the money. You can't beat them for their quality or price. Both are easy to break down for cleaning. Their value is great for the money, and you get excellent quality. They are very under rated by those who really don't know anything about them. Also, a life time warranty for the original owner. What more do you want. Go to Bersa Chat and enter their forum and get the feed back from the many satisfied Bersa owners.


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## berettatoter

recoilguy said:


> Argentina has a military? Who Knew?
> 
> Did all 3 guys get a Bersa or do they have to share each guy gets to use it every 8 hours?
> 
> Not a knock on Bersa I just actually laughed out loud when I read Argentina military. ......It probably isn't funny but but sure struck me that way today.
> 
> RCG


They were the ones who fought the British over the Falkland Island. Argentina has a long history of maintaining not only a fine military, but being in the forefront, as far as South America is concerned, of maintaining some of the most cutting edge small arms that have been available. Not trying to put a plug in for the country or anything, but their history is what it is.


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## Blade

I carry a Bersa Thunder 9 Ultra Compact Pro. I have over 500 rds through it now, and I have never had a single failure, of any kind. And it doesn't matter what ammo I put in it. It shoots everything and works first time, every time. And there was no break in period. It shot everything out of the box. It is more than accurate enough for its intended purpose. The gun is rugged, solid and well made. Fit and finish are equal to anything out there. And it has features that you generally only find on much more expensive guns. Like a match grade barrel with polygonal rifling. And all the controls are ambidextrous, with the exception of the magazine release, which can be switched to either side in seconds using a simple screwdriver. The double action trigger is long and heavy (as you want it to be in a defensive gun), but it is glass smooth, with no stacking or stutters. The single action trigger is equal to any production gun made. It breaks smartly at 4 1/2 pounds, with only the slightest hint of creep. And you really have to be looking for it to feel it at all. I don't care what it cost, it is, without a doubt, the best handgun I've ever owned.

Oh, and one of the reasons that the gun is inexpensive is that Bersa does not dump millions of dollars into advertising. You rarely see them advertised. And they pass the savings on to you.

And one more thing, having to do with round counts and the long term reliability of the gun after thousands of rounds. 90% of the people out there aren't looking for a gun to storm the beaches of Iwo Jima and shoot it out with an army. They are looking for a good gun that will defend their life when they need it. Most people (like me) don't go to the range every day and pump a case of ammo through their guns. If for no other reason, they can't afford it (like me). So the ability to survive 10,000 rounds of use is not a requirement for a typical shooter.


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## vlasfarg

Doubts can come from ignorance, snob-ism, lack of exposure, lack of reputation ...

I took the plunge 2.5 years ago with a Bersa Thunder 9 Pro HC. Since then I added a Thunder 22.

The BTh9 Pro HC is my favorite range gun since then. The finish is not as good as the finish of my Glock 26 Gen4, but after 4000+ rounds, the Bersa show very little signs of wear. So, to me, it is a solid, reliable and very accurate pistol. I would carry it with no fear.

It took some time to break it in about 300 rounds (the slide did not lock back when the gun was empty with weaker rounds). I had an issue to eject 20% of the time with 1 mag only. It was perfect with the other mag and the 2 other mags I purchased after.
So, for the heck of it, I got it sent back with that mag before I would have to pay for shipping (i.e. before 1 year). There is life time warranty on the Bersas, but you need to pay for the shipping (I believe). They must have done something right because the gun has been flawless with any kind of ammo I have put through it since then. The service was quick and no question asked (I gave a good description when I gave it back and the gun was back 4 weeks later at Academy for me to pick up). They described what was done clearly: they test fired, changed the ejector, not the extractor, and test fired again, cleaned up (Thanks!).

The 22LR is great (robust, accurate for its size, balanced, great sights) and it fits in small hands and big hands so it is an outstanding gun to introduce young and new shooters to the sport. It is as reliable as the 22lr ammo you put it in. I have lost count of the # of rounds it has been through.

I am very happy with my 2 Bersas - I would be happy to add a UC9, but I really do not need it.

Before that, I had a Beretta 92FS. 
I now have a (great) Glock 26G4 (took more time to break it in than the Bersa 9 btw, but after 1000+ rounds it is great), a Walther P22 (not sure how long it will go, but so far, it has 4000+ rounds too), a flawless since day 1 Keltec sub 2000 9mm, and a Maverick 88 (very simple and reliable shotgun). 
So I do not believe I can be called a Bersa snob. The price for the Bersas went up about 15% since I bought mines. I would buy them again even at the new price if I had to as they are a lot of guns for the money.
I have no experience with the .380 ACP models except that they fit my hand like a glove (same as the Th22). I heard good things about them though.

Vincent


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## Roverhound

I have a Thunder 40 uc that I carry daily. I have put about 750 rounds through it with no issues. It is a firearm I trust to do what I want when I need it.


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## rachilders

I currently have 4 Bersa 9mm's (two UC-9's, a UC-9 PRO and a full size T-9), a UC-45 and two T-380's. All are excellent pistols, though I'm particularly fond of the UC-9s. My UC-45, a UC-9 and one T-380 I've owned since '04 while the newest gun (the PRO) was purchased in '09. I think they were one of the best kept secrets out there. However, that seems to have taken a change for the worse in the last year or so. I noticed there has been a CONSIDERABLE increase in the past couple of years in *ALL* Bersa handguns. Just 18 months ago a new T-380 was less than $250 and I purchased two T-380's NIB for $189 just a few years ago. As of last week, the local Academy sells T-380s for $350 and UC-9 PRO's go for over $450! My UC-45 was only $289 when I got it in '05 and the last UC-9 I saw at a local gun show last year was $350. At these prices, the days of Bersa pistols being a good deal may be a thing of the past!


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## TGeneC

Wow... Try reading every single post here. The topic answers go from political infighting, name calling, haters, lovers, noobs, dumb owners, snobs and slobs... I've probably been tied up in every one of those categories over my lifetime - does that qualify me to respond? I recently purchased both a Thunder .380 Plus (15+1) and the Thunder 9 UC Pro (13+1). Both had 200 rounds through them (cheap Atlanta Arms & Ammo refurb target rounds) on day one, 200 on day two. Long term reliability - no freaking clue, out of the box performance on both - not one single issue. Zero misfeeds. Stripping and cleaning - just a bit of a juggle to reseat the .380 slide on re-assembly, so simple your dog could do it on the 9mm. Both feel good, shoot as straight as I can make them (which after 10+ years of ZERO shooting was about an 8" circle at 20 feet). I have shot Beretta, Glock, Colt, Ruger, Browning, Taurus and S&W. The feel of the Bersa is just as good as any of them, better than a few. All I can say is the price was outstanding, they fit my hand and they shoot cheap ammo just as well as the high priced HP rounds. Very impressed so far - another 400-500 rounds without mishap and I'll give them my total trust as primary carry weapons. 

A complaint here I agree with is the finish is not as nice as more expensive guns. But then again the Colt and Beretta's I carried in the military had the finish worn to hell and they looked beat. They still shot straight and the Bersa does to. Sorry, but if I'm forced to draw it is NOT going to be with the intent to shock and over-awe my would be assailant with the awesome shine and beauty of the finish. Unless they can see how shiny the tip of the Hornady HP round is as it's coming at them?


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## cluznar

Stick to your guns.  I own a Bersa Thunder .380, a Ruger SR9c, and a Stoeger Cougar compact 9mm and all 3 are excellent guns. I carry the Bersa and SR9c and trust them completely and the Stoeger is the most accurate of them all and great to shoot. You made some good choices.


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## berettatoter

I have owned a number of Bersa pistols, and have never had an issue with any of them. Now, will the Bersa pass the 30,000 round test? I don't know, but the ones that I had all performed well and were good looking guns too. I can't say that my Hi Point JHP, in .45 ACP looks good, but it shoots like a house on fire and is very accurate. I have just over 600 rounds thru it without any malfuntions. I run ball and HP ammo in it and it always does a good job. Some of my fellow shooters laugh at me when I get that big ugly gun out, until they see it shoot and then they shut up. (Especially when they find out how much I paid for it NIB) Don't worry what others think of your Bersa, they are not the ones who shoot it, you are so you be the judge.


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## Duggap

New to the forum, but I have two Bersa pistols and they are number 1 in my book. My 380 thunder is absolutely wonderful. Takes all brands of ammo and just keeps on firing. I wasn't happy with my Ruger SR9c because it keeps jamming so I bought the Bersa Thunder 9mm ultra compact. Wonderful carry gun and again no jams, it justs keeps on going. Best kept secret in the gun world.


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## cluznar

Sorry to hear your disappointment with the SR9c, mine has fired flawlessly with over 400 rounds thru it. But since you replaced it with a Bersa and are happy I'm glad for you. People who don't own a Bersa really need to understand how good a gun they are. Ruger and Bersa are both favorites for me, mine have always been dependable.


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## dragonXXX

Mike Barham said:


> Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.
> 
> I know that they've been tested by gun rags, but gun rag "tests" seldom expend more than a couple of hundred rounds, and tend to gloss over any failures anyway.
> 
> And I know lots of people on the internet post about their excellent Bersas. But once again, we almost invariably see opinions based on low round counts, usually just a couple hundred rounds. I think this may be partially because serious shooters who expend lots of ammo are generally attracted to guns with longer and deeper track records than Bersa can currently produce.
> 
> While Bersas may indeed be excellent, long lived, totally reliable pistols, I haven't seen anything that objectively establishes such. I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.
> 
> I'm not saying Bersas are bad pistols at all - I know several people who are very pleased with their Bersa .380s. But I think this is why you see "doubt" about them. When someone takes thirty randomly selected Bersas and puts 10,000 rounds through each of them, then reports mean rounds between failure, number of broken parts if any, and accuracy before and after...well, then I will start taking them seriously as service pistols (assuming they survive the test).
> 
> And I think I have a reasonable idea of how to shoot, and what good shooting looks like. :mrgreen:


Very well said. I totally agree with your observation.


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## JBFL

dragonXXX said:


> Very well said. I totally agree with your observation.


You might like this (speacially the ones that have really tried a Bersa before).....1,400+ rounds on a Thunder Pro 9 MM non stop!

Part 1: GUNS: Bersa Thunder fires 1400 rounds with no jams! - Part 1 - YouTube

Part 2: GUNS: Bersa Thunder fires 1400 rounds with no jams! - Part 2 - YouTube

Is there a similar video about some of the other great brands that you are aware of? Not saying this is a complete test (not quite 10,000 rounds for sure), just curious....


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## Tnic

Haven't found any conclusive test results but this wiki article might lend some more credibility to the Bersa brand. The Argentine military and their National Police all carry the Bersa Thunder 9 (as of the writing of the article).

Bersa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bersa also makes the fighter jets for the Argentine Air Force so they know a thing or two about metallurgy and building solid weapons systems. Add in the Beretta pedigree from one of the founders and their reputation, though not widely known, is well deserved.

Works for me.

They may be less expensive, but they're far from cheaply made.

Just my 0.02 kopeks.


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## opos

A major issue in California is that Bersa did not spend the time or money required to "register" anything but the 380's for the California qualified hand gun list...that means that no dealer can sell any new Bersa in California and no one can ship a bersa (new or used) other than one of the 380's that is on the list (all the 380's are not on the list). Lots of folks feel if Bersa doesn't think their guns can pass the California "drop and safety test" that they don't want to own them. There are some 9's and 45's that have been around in the state and can be sold private party to private party but no dealer can sell them and again no one like dealer or private party can ship them into the state....That coupled with the disconnect spring hassles on the earlier 380's (don't know if they ever fixed it) and no local warranty repair shops (the best and I think the closest was in Fort Collins, Colorado) were, again, red flags. I had 2 of the duo tone 380's and sold both of them because I was into bigger calibers....they didn't bring near what I'd paid for them.


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## Coyotemoon

I own many pistols-1911's-Bersa's-Taurus-Ruger's
I can say without a doubt that my Bersa's are the MOST reliable of them all 110%. I have never had a malfunction of any kind with them.mechanical or ammo.
Bersa Thunder 9-Bersa Thunder 380-Bersa Thunder 40UC Pro
I should have said that my Ruger's are 200% reliable, but they are Revolvers.
My 1911's are next in line 99.99%
My 1911's and Bersa's are my daily carry pistols.Your life depends on them working


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## mustang652

As mentioned on other post, I've got one Bersa built Firestorm 22lr, Two BT380s and the 9UC which is now my primary carry. Like any gun, you can get one with problems. On new guns, the lifetime warranty covers the issues, and I've seldom heard a case where a used one could not be repaired, but there are a few around. I feel comfortable enough with the brand that one of my 380s and the FS22lr were purchased used. For the overall volume of sales, I don't blame them for not dealing with California on other than the 380 sales. I don't remember which company(s) it was, but this is not the first time I've heard that a smaller company had decided not to deal with the overboard regulations for which California is noted. My only complaint is that the finish is not the best on the Bersas, but I've not had a single mechanical problem with any of the four. The only problem I've ever had with the BT380s is a "me" problem. I have a grip problem due to some carpal tunnel and little finger neuropathy nerve damage and have had a half a dozen "limp wrist" failures to chamber over the six years on the two 380s I have. When I shoot the 380s for defense shooting, I use both hands and have not had the problem from this position.


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## Coyotemoon

Sully2 said:


> 1. cost $$$$$ When you buy a handgun based on $$$...your just asking for problems
> 2. Hard on the hands after 60+ rounds .. That would be enough to cool me from buying
> 3. Field stripping is a challenge...That would be enough to cool me from buying
> 
> .extra mags are HARD to find....That would be another BIG negative for me


Why is field stripping hard? I can field strip my 380-40-9 in about as much time as it took to type this.


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## Themajickman

To be honest with you the only complaints I've heard about Bersa is that the finish is not good as some other brands. Oh and, to cut some production costs they come in a cardboard box instead of a plastic carrying case. Popcornsmilie


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## sclark

I just bought a Thunder .380 as a CC handgun and love it. So much so that I'm researching their .45 UC as my next purchase instead of a 1911. 

That said, in regards to the Argentinian police and military carrying Bersa sidearms, you have to remember that (1) by buying Bersa's they're keeping Argentinians employed, (2) it's a matter of self-sufficiency (much like the US military buying weapons made in the US), (3) it's a matter of national pride, and (4) these decisions are usually more political than proven performance. On the other hand, if they were garbage, either some Bersa executives would be doing time in the worst kind of S American hellhole prison or they'd be swapping them out with FN or Beretta products.

But I don't think that's the case. I've been pretty impressed with the quality of mine, after being a little leery of the low price. I DID lose the screw that holds the rear sight in place the first day at the range, but Bersa promptly sent a replacement from NJ to MI and I got it within 3 days - over Christmas. I've run about 150 rounds through it so far w/o issue. It's a solid shooter - and deadly accurate at 7 yds right out of the box - and even my gun-oriented in-laws seemed surprised by the quality when they handled it. I don't think you can find a better value out there. And it feels good not to pay for a name.


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## FrankBrady

While Argentina isn't exactly a super power, Bersa Thunders are the standard sidearm of the Argentine military and police.


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## FrankBrady

Just to keep this information on a relatively current page (although others have posted this in the nearly five years this thread has been running), Bersa Thunders are the standard side arm of the Argentine military and police. They are design clones of the Walther P88, one of the best engineered pistols every made IMHO. One of the reasons for the low price is the exchange rate--which is working very much in favor of the dollar at this point. Finally, I suspect that at least some of the "doubt" about Bersa reliability is generated by competitors who are vulnerable on the price point vs. quality metric (present company excluded, of course). I've personally put thousands of rounds through a Bersa Thunder 9UC and a Bersa Thunder 45 UC with zero problems. No FTF. No FTE. No problems. Nada. None.


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## FrankBrady

Me too on the ease of take down It is as easy as it gets!


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