# Is the .45 The Ultimate Caliber?



## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Officer is shot 7 times with a .45 and is back on the job is 6 months.........

It also brings up the question of which is more important...... Size of bullet or shot placement.....


----------



## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

What question? There is no question. Shot placement. Absolutely.


----------



## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

I think his body armor saved his life. He was also lucky the shot to the chin didn't kill him. 

.45 is my first choice, I am just as accurate with it as I am with anything else. 

It just seems to be so ironic sometimes there are stories where a toddler shoots his mom once and kills her in a freak accident and a killer armed with a .45 shoots a cop 7 times and he not only survives but goes back to work. I would definitely say placement is everything. I still choose a well placed .45 as my first choice.


----------



## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

No pistol round that can be reasonably carried is a guaranteed stopper, even with decent shot placement (except cranial ocular shot). Bullet design has advanced considerably since the 1970's and I now feel comfortable carrying most anything. I love the .45, the .357 Sig, .38 Super and 9mm, but I have to do my part and that means accuracy and shot placement.


----------



## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

I gather from reading about it - supposed to be results from an FBI study - that a permanent secondary wound channel requires a terminal velocity of over 2000 fps.


----------



## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

There was a time that I believed that nothing but a 45 acp would do it. Growing up in Europe back than, meant having Guns in .22, 25, 32, or if you really could afford it a .380 or a Macarow 9X18 from the east.We had mostly the FMJ round accessible. 
This rounds didn't necessary reliably stop an intruder, but this rounds are very good in killing people on internal bleeding, if they didn't come to a hospital very fast after they were shot.

Later with more variety of Weapons and Ammo available, I switched to 45 acp. "A 45 acp doesn't shrink" I always said and believed in the stopping power of this caliber.

Well - later I learned from Instructors in the Military that the 45 is a great round but it is much more important where the bullet hits and how often you can repeat that on a target if necessary.
And I hate to say that, but stopping power is found in a rifle and not so often in hand-firearms. Just saying.

Since I carry a gun on a daily base, I have even more learned. The weight of a carry gun is an issue. I like guns and have spend way too much money on them. I like to shoot them on the range too. But in my daily life, other things are more important than a gun. I have no problem to carry concealed a full sized M&P or even a Walther PPX but who really gonna do it when there are so many different weapons out there. We can argue all day long which gun is better, but on the end of the day a H&K VP9 shouts the same bullet than a M&P 9 Shield and causes the same damage to a target when hit on the same spot.

Today I carry comfortably the 9X19 round in a Shield, a M&P 9c or in a Taurus PT 111 Pro on a daily base. Weight is an issue at least for me in my daily life and I want to carry but not really feel all day long that I do. 
I never thought I would buy a plastic striker fired gun and now I have several of this kind of guns. 
Today I carry my Shield and fully loaded with 147 gr ammo (one in the chamber) that thing has 680 gram or that would be 23.98 oz comparing to 920 gram 32.45 oz measured with a full sized M&P 9.
That is plenty to carry on all day long. I prefer the 147 gr bullet because I looking for penetration and put speed second because I don't believe that any bad girl can outrun a 9mm 147 +P bullet.

Exercising the weapon on a regular base that you carry is more important than a bigger round in the chamber. A 22LR that hit the bad boy between the eyes is much better and has more stopping power than the 45 that is blown in the blue sky. Just saying. 

If it comes to home defense weapons were carry weight and guns size doesn't matter, would be a different story.
Like always - The one fits all doesn't exist. 

Opinion off.


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Shot placement. 

I like .45's because it feels right when I shoot it. It's a low velocity, low pressure round that is not hard on moving parts, and has a heavy enough bullet with 230 grains to achieve very good penetration. In order to do similar with a smaller bullet, you have to increase the velocity and therefore the pressure. That changes the shooting characteristics, and while I'm fine with the terminal effect of 9x19 or .40 S&W hollow points, the .45 ACP just feels right to me.


----------



## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Sure I still like the 45 acp. I still have my Sar 1911 from Turkey that I bought way back in the 1980 in Vienna Austria on the black market for I believe 1200.- DeutscheMark including 100 Rounds. 
By the way, the Turks just copy Hand-firearms bottom down to the original measurement and material. There are international lawsuits going on since decates but the Turks just don't care and threaten the Industrial Nations just with going out of the NATO. So it's a politic issue. 

But for example Sarzilmaz or SAR builds the H&K USP, names it SAR ST10, and I believe all parts of that gun are interchangeable with the Original from H&K. EAA distributes those guns and the EAA SAR ST10 has a price-tag of 350 Dollar out the door. Just if someone would like to know. It's nothing, - when you know its a H&K USP copy for that money.
China was not the first that copied industrial products down to the 1/1000 of an inch and sells it with their own brand-name. Turkey was faster on that.

I like to shoot my 45es but I don't like to carry them anymore. So my 45ves ar Guns for HD or for fun on the Range.


----------



## TheTourist (Dec 27, 2014)

I agree with the observation on shot placement.

But as a reloader and tinkering for decades, I have to say that two factory ammunition examples, the Federal 125 Grain .357 Magnum and the SilverTip 10mm Auto, are probably the most lethal if all else is equal.

My carry pistol is the Kimber UC2. After experimenting, I've found that the .45 ACP Guard Dog and the Hornady Critical Defense cycle seamlessly. At present I give the nod to the Hornady for effect.

I am trying the HST now based on magazine reports. I did have a FTF however, during the initial break-in.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Classic example of the fact that there is no ultimate caliber. Just ultimate placement.


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

It is shot placement until you get to 20mm or above. The ultimate caliber and ultimate handgun is determined by the shooter. What handgun and caliber that you can put hits on the target at best possible speed is the ultimate for you.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Of course, I agree with almost everyone here: Accurate shot placement trumps caliber/bullet weight/velocity every time.

Having written that, and even though I now carry a "mere" .380 ACP pistol, I must admit that I still believe that the .45 ACP round presents the best balance of damage-versus-control of any other easily-available pistol round.
The slow-moving, full-weight, .45 bullet will stay within its, um, target almost all of the time, thereby delivering all of its energy to whatever you've hit.
Smaller, faster, lighter bullets can punch all the way through, delivering a lot of their energy to the wall behind the bad guy, but a properly-placed, 230-grain, .45 bullet, at less than 900fps, won't waste a joule.
At the same time, in a full-size steel pistol, the recoil of the .45 ACP round is experienced as an easily-controlled, fairly slow push, while many smaller-diameter, speedier rounds produce what beginners experience as an uncomfortable, quick jab.

In my own experience, a reasonably adept 10-year-old child can be taught to successfully shoot a .45 ACP, M1911 pistol. A hoplophobic woman-friend, with no shooting experience whatever, learned to consistently hit target centers at 10 yards with my full-size .45, after only one hour of simple instruction and practice.
My petite wife (now 72 years old; 90 pounds, fully dressed and soaking wet) became quite an expert with a full-size M1911, after about one year's-worth of instruction, daily practice, and once-a-week shooting.


----------



## TheTourist (Dec 27, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Of course, I agree with almost everyone here...Having written that, and even though I now carry a "mere" .380 ACP pistol.


So do I, under certain conditions.

In the summer months when I'm riding, I carry a SIG P238. It's gets hot and muggy during Wisconsin summers, and between the heat of the day and the highway temperature of a Harley, you don't want to carry anything you do not need.

Below is an older picture in response to a "what's in your pockets" thread in another forum. Based on this picture, I did pare down the load...LOL


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Hmmm...
With a couple of exceptions, that's what I carry in my pockets.
I don't need an inhaler, my other knife is a Swiss Army type, and my wallet is inaccessible rather than chained.
The big difference is that I also carry one full reload.


----------



## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

The 380 acp is after all a 9mm round. It called also the 9mm short. With a modern round in the chamber is that a WoW. A T-Shirt or a Business Jacked is no protection against the 9mm short.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

TheTourist said:


> So do I, under certain conditions.
> 
> In the summer months when I'm riding, I carry a SIG P238. It's gets hot and muggy during Wisconsin summers, and between the heat of the day and the highway temperature of a Harley, you don't want to carry anything you do not need.
> 
> Below is an older picture in response to a "what's in your pockets" thread in another forum. Based on this picture, I did pare down the load...LOL


That's a lot of items to carry, i can't make out the item next to the wallet that looks like a pipe of some sort


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Not a pipe a flashlight


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Have any of you shot anyone?

That is a question I have both seen and used on occasion when this subject comes up; that of the caliber wars. It is always interesting to me to read of other's opinions on this topic but the people I like to read and listen to most are those who have been there and done that. Of those individuals with whom I have discussed this, in the semi-auto world the most favored calibers have been the .45ACP and the 10mm. In revolvers, it's the .357 Magnum 125gr as mentioned above.

This past November, I was talking to a DHS agent who carries and favors the .40S&W. I don't know if he's shot anyone but he did make mention of some perps shot by agents he knows who just didn't want to go down with hits from the 9mm. I believe their load for that caliber is the Speer Gold Dot 124gr though in the .40S&W, I think he said they were issued HST's. I do know that about 6-8 years ago, Customs was using the Gold Dot 124gr 9mm load in a product number I could not find. I know this because a Customs agent gave me two 50-round boxes of it, which I still have.

One of the men I met and got to know put over two dozen BG's in prison. In the process, he shot, as I recall, seven BG's of which five succumbed to their wounds. His choice of carry was a 1911 in .45ACP. I never knew what sort of LEO he was though I suspected that he was a Federal Marshall from some of the things he said.

The issue of shot placement being paramount is also a critical factor and I concur with that as well. Chances are, if you can throw a number of high quality SD rounds into some effective parts of a perp's body, you're going to get the results you intend... stopping his actions against you and/or yours. If you can do this with a 9mm pistol, so be it. If you can do this with something more powerful, so much the better. This is why we practice.

So the question of "how many of you have shot someone" is valid. I should say that I am not asking this question of you people... just offering an example of what I have encountered on some other sites from those who have been through this and who have very important things to say about it. What I like to do is to throw out a few questions and then just shut up and listen.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Have any of you shot anyone?
> 
> That is a question I have both seen and used on occasion when this subject comes up; that of the caliber wars. It is always interesting to me to read of other's opinions on this topic but the people I like to read and listen to most are those who have been there and done that. Of those individuals with whom I have discussed this, in the semi-auto world the most favored calibers have been the .45ACP and the 10mm. In revolvers, it's the .357 Magnum 125gr as mentioned above.
> 
> ...


To answer your question, fortunately, no. I have talked with several who have though, and their choice of caliber has ranged from 9mm to .45. One local cop that I know shot/killed did so with and carried the Sig P220. My own cousin (local LEO) carries the M&P45, although he tells me he is considering going back to the 9mm, as have a lot of his fellow officers. The Navy SEAL I spoke with said he chooses the Sig P226 over all the guns he could choose, and I know two DEA agents who choose to carry a .40, one the Glock 22 and the other a Sig P229. I know the BHMPD issues the S&W M&P9, while the Hoover PD issues the Glock 17.

The DEA agent who carries the G22 said that the DEA and FBI are both switching back to the G17/19, and that they have for the last few years issued the G22/23 unless the agent could not score well enough with it, at which time they were reissued a 17/19. Seems the technology advancements with 9mm recently have turned a lot of people back to it, but I personally see nothing wrong with people carrying whatever they are comfortable with. I carry a 9mm for a few reasons. One, I shoot better with it. I can carry more bullets, and it is cheaper than practicing with .40 and .45. I actually like all three calibers and believe all are great rounds for the intended use; defense. If I think I'm going to need a gun, I'll take my rifle. ;-)

There was a big deal of this issue, the caliber debate, several years ago when I lived in TN. The Chattanooga PD switched from a S&W 9mm to a S&W 45, and there were mixed feelings among the officers about it. Some LOVED it while others did not, and this was in the early 2000s. I've learned it all boils down to preference. Some, who have real experience killing, seem to prefer different calibers by my experience, while those who have not killed anyone also prefer different calibers. For me it really isn't an issue. I say carry what you want. Just practice with it!


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM

I agree with your statement about shooting what one wants. I have said many times that one should use the gun and caliber with which they are most effective; that they can deliver rounds to target confidently, consistently, and effectively. It is far better to be able to do this than to go to something with which you might only hit a few times out of a full magazine which also holds fewer rounds.

Another criteria which is rarely mentioned is human change. We all change over time. We age and we are subject to the ailments of aging. I have osteoarthritis. It started in my knees, resulting in two knee replacements (one total and one partial), and of late, my right index finger is giving me problems... that is my trigger finger.

This aging process can most definitely be a determining factor in which sidearm is going to work best for you. Funny thing. I have three Glock 23's, two gen3's and one gen4, and I shoot my gen4 G23 better than any other Glock I own. Don't understand it other than perhaps the new textured grip, of which I am quite fond.

BTW, you are also correct about the advancements in SD ammunition. The 9mm has benefited from this greatly. I don't fret on those days when I choose to carry one of my 9mm pistols stoked with either some Federal HST 124gr +P (or 147gr +P) or some Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. I know I wouldn't want to get hit by any of this nasty stuff.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

No doubt about the nasty stuff! And great point about the human factor! One of the reasons I transitioned back to the 9mm was b/c I just shoot better with it, and that took me some time to get my head wrapped around b/c I loved the .40. One of the reasons was b/c I think as I have aged (still only 43, but that is 20 yrs older than 23) I have found my eye sight has changed, and so has my hand strength. I am still pretty strong, but I know I'm not 23 anymore, and I can just control the 9mm a little better now.

The thing that got me back to Glock was the Gen4. The grip texture is really great, but the smaller grip fit my hand better, and I know that is what made the difference for me. It is only 1/32" thinner from front to backstrap, but that made a huge difference for me. Now, when I pick up a Gen3 I just don't like it b/c of the Gen4 grip. Glocks really are great guns, and I'll have more in time. I just like them! But for now, I'm just stuck on that VP9. The ergonomics are just amazing, and the trigger is really great. I just shoot better with it, which gives me the confidence I need to carry it over the Glock. I will probably never have to shoot anyone at 25 yards, but I'm just that much better at that distance with the VP9. I think it is attributed to the ergonomics and trigger. 

I'm looking now for HST, and as soon as I can find it, I'm going to snatch a few boxes up as I'm cycling ammo. I like the Critical Duty, but I just think the HST is a better round for me. Don't anticipate having to shoot through windshields and steel much in my line of life.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Oh, I left off one other man I knew when I was a teenager. He shot two people. I don't know if he killed both but I do remember him telling me that he killed one of them. It happened during a routine traffic stop... he was a cop. As he was approaching the vehicle, the driver suddenly exited and fired a shot at him from a .38 caliber revolver. The LEO was hit in the lower leg and went down. As he was falling, he pulled his 1911 and shot the guy in the chest; one shot, one kill.

This happened probably 60 to 70 years ago so I would imagine the LEO was using ball ammo. He showed me the scar from the bullet wound in his lower leg. I was probably 13 years old so this was all new to me.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Interesting stories. I posted an article about this a few months ago, written by a cop who has interviewed shootings over the last 25 years for really the same reasons you stated you ask the question. He said he's seen some pretty crazy things. One was a woman on a shooting he was called to investigate that had been shot in the middle of her forehead with a .357 mag. She was sitting on the couch when he walked in talking to the uniformed cop. She was a lucid and alert as anyone else in the room. Turns out the bullet split the lobes of her brain perfectly causing no significant damage to her brain at all. Another was a cop he interviewed that had shot a man five times in the chest with a .45, and the guy did not die. Another was a little old lady who shot a home intruder with a .32, and dropped him on the spot severing his aorta instantly. The one thing he said was that you never know what is going to happen in a gun fight/shooting. I suppose that is the truth!


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

"The one thing he said was that you never know what is going to happen in a gun fight/shooting. I suppose that is the truth!"

THIS !!

Absolutely. There are virtually an unlimited number of variables involved in a gunfight. This is why I like to say that if you are involved in a SD shooting, you are only going to know how well your selected caliber and load performed for that specific case.

Sometimes the craziest things do happen. You told of the lady who was shot in the forehead with a .357 Magnum. I used to know a kid who went to school with my oldest daughter. He, and a bunch of other boys, used to hang around our house often. After he graduated from high school, he got a job driving an ambulance. He was called to the scene of a shooting in which the victim had been shot in the head with a shotgun.

He was prepared to face a heck of a mess but when he got there, the man was sitting on the edge of a bed being interviewed by a police officer. The man had been shot in the temple with a slug and of course, it was a through an through wound. What blew the kid's mind was the victim's eyeballs were blown out of their sockets and were hanging down on his upper cheeks.


----------



## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Have any of you shot anyone?


I'm happy to say I have not. I have, however, spent about 30 years in the ER patching up people who have been shot. Which is why I am completely convinced that shot placement is what it's all about. A single properly placed .380 round will drop you. A half dozen poorly placed .45 rounds will just piss you off.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

DirtyDog said:


> I'm happy to say I have not. I have, however, spent about 30 years in the ER patching up people who have been shot. Which is why I am completely convinced that shot placement is what it's all about. A single properly placed .380 round will drop you. A half dozen poorly placed .45 rounds will just piss you off.


I always laugh at those guys I see who say things like "one shot from a .45 will drop any man on the spot".


----------



## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> I always laugh at those guys I see who say things like "one shot from a .45 will drop any man on the spot".


It's kind of like that rule for businesses...
Location, location, location!


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> I always laugh at those guys I see who say things like "one shot from a .45 will drop any man on the spot".


The 1 oz. of lead from a 12 gauge might be enough, but you still have to hit 'em where it matters.
GW


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

DirtyDog said:


> I'm happy to say I have not. I have, however, spent about 30 years in the ER patching up people who have been shot. Which is why I am completely convinced that shot placement is what it's all about. A single properly placed .380 round will drop you. A half dozen poorly placed .45 rounds will just piss you off.


One of the men I knew from another website and who once set a bunch of people straight about a few things was also someone who worked in the medical field and saw a lot. He had been a cop before entering medicine (I think he was a nurse in an emergency room theater). He was very frank and quite interesting.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> No doubt about the nasty stuff! And great point about the human factor! One of the reasons I transitioned back to the 9mm was b/c I just shoot better with it, and that took me some time to get my head wrapped around b/c I loved the .40. One of the reasons was b/c I think as I have aged (still only 43, but that is 20 yrs older than 23) I have found my eye sight has changed, and so has my hand strength. I am still pretty strong, but I know I'm not 23 anymore, and I can just control the 9mm a little better now.
> 
> The thing that got me back to Glock was the Gen4. The grip texture is really great, but the smaller grip fit my hand better, and I know that is what made the difference for me. It is only 1/32" thinner from front to backstrap, but that made a huge difference for me. Now, when I pick up a Gen3 I just don't like it b/c of the Gen4 grip. Glocks really are great guns, and I'll have more in time. I just like them! But for now, I'm just stuck on that VP9. The ergonomics are just amazing, and the trigger is really great. I just shoot better with it, which gives me the confidence I need to carry it over the Glock. I will probably never have to shoot anyone at 25 yards, but I'm just that much better at that distance with the VP9. I think it is attributed to the ergonomics and trigger.
> 
> I'm looking now for HST, and as soon as I can find it, I'm going to snatch a few boxes up as I'm cycling ammo. I like the Critical Duty, but I just think the HST is a better round for me. Don't anticipate having to shoot through windshields and steel much in my line of life.


I bought a gen4 G19 last year and did my usual modifications to the trigger plus adding quality aftermarket sights. It is basically set up nearly identical to my gen4 G23 but for some reason, I just do not shoot it anywhere near as well as my gen4 G23. That makes no sense to me. Now my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" is one 9mm pistol I do shoot very well. It's quite accurate in my hands and is a great shooter. I just wish I could get that gen4 G19 to come around like my gen4 G23.


----------



## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> One of the men I knew from another website and who once set a bunch of people straight about a few things was also someone who worked in the medical field and saw a lot. He had been a cop before entering medicine (I think he was a nurse in an emergency room theater). He was very frank and quite interesting.


I have a good friend (the guy who reloads for me) who went the other direction. He was an ER nurse and then became a cop. Just made detective, as a matter of fact.
Being frank is something of a job requirement in the ER. I don't know about interesting, but we do tend to be a rather bount bunch.

Two recent cases that illustrate the importance of shot placement.
A rather foolish man tried to rob a gun store with a knife. That didn't work out, so he ran away. A cop confronted him. He stabbed the cop in the left shoulder. The young and relatively new officer fired 5 rounds at arms length. Two rounds missed completely. One resulted in a flesh wound to the upper arm. One went passed through below the ribs on the right, one just above the belt on the left. Neither actually penetrated the abdominal cavity; very superficial. He was out of the ER and off to jail in about 90 minutes.

Another rather foolish man shot at (and missed) an officer. The officer returned fire. He fired twice. One round hit just left of the sternum at about the level of the nipple. The other was just to the right of the sternum at about the same level.

He was transported, but was DRT.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> I bought a gen4 G19 last year and did my usual modifications to the trigger plus adding quality aftermarket sights. It is basically set up nearly identical to my gen4 G23 but for some reason, I just do not shoot it anywhere near as well as my gen4 G23. That makes no sense to me. Now my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" is one 9mm pistol I do shoot very well. It's quite accurate in my hands and is a great shooter. I just wish I could get that gen4 G19 to come around like my gen4 G23.


I found that to be the case btwn my Glock 17 Gen4 and G19G4. I could shoot better with the 19, which I never understood. It didn't make sense to me b/c the 17 actually fits my hands a little better. IDK...maybe I concentrated a little more with the 19, but even when I did focus trying to shoot better, I never shot better with the 17.

Now this new VTAC I have, different story. I shot better with it out of the gate better than I've shot any other M&P, that I recall. I've owned the standard M&P9 and the 45, both of which I loved...but the VTAC just seemed to perform a little better for me. I was no better with the other two M&Ps as I was my Glocks, so I stuck with the Glocks since I just knew them better. Now that the VP9 has spoiled me, I gave the VTAC a shot, and I did well with it. I feel I did as well with it as I do the VP9, and that is very interesting to me.

To be honest, I still like and want Glocks. I still have the little G42 for special occasions, like church, weddings, etc., but I just like the Glock. For now, I'm content with what I have, but in time...all that.


----------

