# 9mm vs 9mm Luger



## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

After I finished at the range I wanted to buy some rounds to replace what I shot.

I told the guy I wanted FMJ for range and some sig v crown hollow points.

I got home and noticed that they are all Luger 9mm.

I called him back and he said they are the same thing. I know they are not cuz of the taper.

I shoot Beretta 92FS, Custom Carry II, PX4 Storms, a Jimenez, and an AR chambered in 9mm.

Can I shoot the Lugers from those guns, and is he right, there is no difference?

Thank you so much for your help.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

For someone who says he shoots four separate guns chambered in 9mm you might want to already know this, unless of course you don't buy ammo?

GW


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> After I finished at the range I wanted to buy some rounds to replace what I shot.
> 
> I told the guy I wanted FMJ for range and some sig v crown hollow points.
> 
> ...


*" I called him back and he said they are the same thing. I know they are not cuz of the taper." 
*
Well..... ?
There are several names for the *"*Nine*".*

Here are some:

9×19
9mm
9mm Luger
9mm NATO
9×19mm
9 mil
9×19mm NATO
9mm Parabellum
9mm Para
9mm P

Sam


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

SamBond, your aviator says it all.
Nice list BTW.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

Goldwing said:


> For someone who says he shoots four separate guns chambered in 9mm you might want to already know this, unless of course you don't buy ammo?
> 
> GW


In a week I'm going to be 67, I am a retired LEO. I have forgotten more than you will ever learn. I have four children older than you that are LEO. Save your snark for facebook.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

LostinTexas said:


> SamBond, your aviator says it all.
> Nice list BTW.


Thank you very much. After 40 year career and helping all my kids get set up, I finally made it! No more snow!!!


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

SamBond said:


> *" I called him back and he said they are the same thing. I know they are not cuz of the taper." *
> 
> Well..... ?
> There are several names for the *"*Nine*".*
> ...


I had always bought bulk through the department for my range rounds but this time I bought a box and it's the first time I ever saw the word Luger. So I looked it up and it said the cartridges are tapered so they may not feed from the mag as well as NATO rounds that are straight. That got me all confused, so I thought I would come to you guys and you did not disappoint. Except for that goldwing fella.

Thanks again.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I had always bought bulk through the department for my range rounds but this time I bought a box and it's the first time I ever saw the word Luger. So I looked it up and it said the cartridges are tapered so they may not feed from the mag as well as NATO rounds that are straight. That got me all confused, so I thought I would come to you guys and you did not disappoint. Except for that goldwing fella.
> 
> Thanks again.


Well, you are right and you are wrong. Although it is not too obvious to the naked eye, the 9x19 mm (AKA 9 mm Para, AKA 9 mm Parabellum, AKA 9 mm Luger) cartridge does in fact have a slight taper. The diameter of the case at the case mouth is about .010" narrower than at the neck and about .014" less than at the rim. If you put a few 9 mm Luger cartridges side by side upright at touching at the rim, you can easily see this degree of taper. Some have advocated developing a new 9x19 mm cartridge with a cylindrical cartridge case called the 9 mm Auto or 9 mm Automatic. But the Luger cartridge has been around so long and has worked so well for so many years I don't foresee that happening.

But you are incorrect in thinking that the 9x19 mm NATO cartridge uses a cylindrical case. The 124 grain FMJ 9x19 mm NATO cartridge uses the same case as other 9 mm Luger ammunition does. The differences are that the case is loaded to a slightly higher powder charge and the NATO cartridges have sealed primers. It is a little difficult to compare the maximum pressure of NATO cartridges to standard pressue (P) 9 mm Luger cartridges because most ammunition sold in the US is loaded to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute) and the NATO ammunition and other European ammunition is loaded to C.I.P. (_*Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives*_ ("Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms") standards which uses a completely different case pressure measuring protocol which yields different results from those that SAAMI uses and do not translate exactly proportionally.

Compared to standard pressure (P) 9 mm Luger loads, which are loaded to a maximum case pressure by SAAMI standards of no greater than 35,000 psi and 34,080 psi by C.I.P. standards, the 9 mm NATO cartridge is loaded to a maximum pressure of 36,500 by C.I.P. standards, a little over 7% "hotter" than standard pressure. The SAAMI standard for 9 mm Luger +P ammunition stipulates a maximum case pressure of 38,500 psi, or 10% "hotter" than standard pressure ammunition. This means that the NATO round is decidedly hotter than standard pressure 9 mm Luger ammo, but not as hot as some +P 9 mm Luger ammo. I have shot a lot of the 124 grain FMJ NATO ammunition as well as a wide variety of 9 mm Luger P and +P ammo from various makers from the same pistols and the differences in recoil I have perceived would suggest this it the case.

There are lots of other 9 mm semi-auto cartridges that are very distinctly different from the 9 mm Luger cartridge, however. These include the 9x17 mm also known as the .380 Auto, .380 ACP, 9 mm Kurtz, 9 mm Short, 9 mm Browning, 9 mm Corto, and 9 mm Browning Court, and which is still a very popular cartridge for which many small auto-loading pistol are chambered.

Another popular 9 mm cartridge is the 9x18 mm or 9 mm Makarov, or 9x18 mm PM, which is a pistol and submachine gun cartridge developed by the Russians and is more or less the Eastern bloc equivalent of the NATO cartridge, but typically loaded with a smaller projectile of 92-95 grains.

There are also 9 mm cartridges with cases longer than 19 mm including the 9x21 mm or 9 mm IMI which was developed by the Israel Military Industries and has a very distinctly tapered cartridge case, as well as the Russian 9x21 mm Gyurza. Finally, there is the big 9x23 mm or 9 mm Win, or 9x23 Winchester. The 9 mm case is stretched out by 4 mm compared to the 9 mm Luger but has nearly the same external neck, head and rim diameters. But the 9 mm Win case is much thicker because this high power pistol cartridge is loaded to a maximum case pressure by SAAMI standards of 55,000 psi, as high as a .223 Rem rifle cartridge.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

What a thorough response with much information. 

Thank so much for clearing that up for me.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

9MM can be confusing. There's 9MM Makarov, 9MM X 21MM, 9MM short or Kurz (.380), to name some variations. Think how many different .22's you can buy.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

For years I bought my 9mm rounds 3-4 thousand at a time from the Dept. range and they came in various boxes and bags. They were 115 grn fmj range rounds. I shot a couple hundred rounds a month. I just shot up my last stock so for the first time in 20 years, I am buying 9mm retail and I never noticed the word "Luger".

It's nice to know there is so much information here and a willingness to share it.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> In a week I'm going to be 67, I am a retired LEO. I have forgotten more than you will ever learn. I have four children older than you that are LEO. Save your snark for facebook.


So you are 67 and you have four children older than 59? Have you ever opened up a reloading manual since you know so much more than I?

GW


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2018)

Oh, I'm sorry! By your comment, I guessed you were 12.
No, I don't believe I have ever opened a reloading manual, that's why I came to the forum.

Instead of revealing your expertise in the first comment, you chose to be stupid, not helpful.
How could I know how much you know, if you didn't address the question?

Never mind, others have helped. Go back to reading your book. Gather up all that information so when someone needs you, you can tell them you know the answer, but won't tell them. 
How does anyone get to be 59 years old and still remain such a prick so rude? (my apologies to pricks) 
How sad to be you. And, I so much never to want anything to do with anyone as rude and ignorant as you, I am going to ignore you now so I do not have to entertain anymore of your childish behavior.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I have a hard time believing that you could carry a gun for four decades and yet you don't know what ammo to buy.

I appreciate your clever insults and all, but my question remains. Have you ever bought ammo before?

GW


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