# To make a point.



## Don357 (Dec 4, 2007)

Here's another "Which One" poll. Please be honest, this is a legitamate poll.
Which full size polymer frame handgun, for the sake of argument we'll say .40S&W, based on reliability, durability, accuracy, and general shootability "out of the box", is the better, not the most popular, better.

1. CZ 75 and clones (Witness, Baby Eagle, etc.)
2. HK
3. S'field XD and XDm
4. Glocks
5. Kimber KPD
6. S&W Sigma
7. Ruger P series
8. Taurus 24/7 
9. Sig
10. Beretta PX-4


I intended to post a poll on this, and all input is welcome.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

SiG has 2 poly's currently available.

I've fired the SiG P250 in .40 as well as 9mm but chose to own a SiGPro 2022 in 9mm (also available in .40 and .357SIG - no conversions available between calibers in this model series). It simply felt better in my hands and won out (after several years of "test driving") over all the polymer frame handguns I tried. USP, M&P, Glocks, P2000, XD and all the rest. Some had features I liked, many had features I did not. None of them had "everything" for me to consider it a "be all, end all" epitomy of polymer frames. The SP had the best overall fit and feel for my hands, came in a caliber that is my personal preference (and most proficient with) in 9mm and I got a sweet deal ($) on a German produced French contract overrun.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Number 11


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## johnr (Jun 13, 2008)

no FNP?


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

> 1. CZ 75 and clones (Witness, Baby Eagle, etc.)
> 2. HK
> 3. S'field XD and XDm
> 4. Glocks
> ...


Of the makes listed, I can say that from my own personal experience the Glock wins hands down over the Sig Sauer, the Heckler und Koch, the Sigma and the Ruger. I do not know enough about the CZ, the Springfield, the Kimber, the Taurus or the Beretta to rate them against the Glock.

I have seen a lot of .40 caliber service weapons fired as my time as a law enforcement firearms instructor and the only weapon that I never saw a problem with was the Glock 22. I personally think that this pistol will go down in history as the model 10 of the 21st century. It is used by more law enforcement personnel than any other pistol today.

All that being said, I carry a Glock 19 (9mm) and a Smith & Wesson model 640 (.38 Special).


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## Don357 (Dec 4, 2007)

My point is starting to be made. The gun that sells the best may not be the best or the least expensive. 
Let's keep this going.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

With all due respect, Don, I see no point being made so far. I, for example stated two different points and if you must consider them both together it actually shows you that the most popular (the Glock) also performs the best. 

Anyway, I hope you data collecting continues to work for you. I, for one, have a very hard time seeing any point at all based on the answers so far.

Maybe I can help you a bit further. Of the common service weapons used by law enforcement, for example, the Glock, the Sig Sauer and the H&K are the top three. Of the three, the H&K costs the most, closely followed by the Sig Sauer, and the Glock is a distant third with regard to price. 

Of the three the Glock is the most used, in part due to the low cost but also because it has the best track record of the three as well. For the police officer on the street who may have to buy his/her own weapon it is nice to know that not only does the Glock cost about half of the other two, but it is a better service weapon. 

I have seen far more Glocks used in LE, but have never seen a problem with one. I have seen several problems with Sig Sauers, and a lot with H&K. For me, the numbers speak for themselves. The best story to go along with this is my first FI school. I carried a Glock 22 and my partner a Sig Sauer P229 .40S&W. My partner had so many problems with the Sig that he ordered a Glock 22 the day we got back from the school. 

All that being said, maybe I am missing your point, or misunderstanding something, so please forgive me if I have.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

Until you can determine how many rounds is "reliability", and quantify how long is "durability", and say how small is "accuracy" and standardize a subjective determination such as "general shootability", then neither I nor no one else can say which handgun is "better".

Therefore, your poll is in reality just a popularity poll.....


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

Don357 said:


> My point is starting to be made. The gun that sells the best may not be the best or the least expensive.
> Let's keep this going.


Well...yeah...it's all subjective...

What I consider to be the best or better gun will depend on what I intend to use it for, how it feels in my hand, how well I shoot it, how reliable that _individual gun_ is, etc....


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## xd9atl (Nov 30, 2008)

when i got my XD out of the box, it shot great! granted its not a .40 and ive not shot some of the models you listed, but i thought the XD was amazing!


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## Black Metal (Jan 16, 2008)

The only CZ 75 that has a polymer frame is the phantom and It doesn't have a long enough track record to be on the poll. I don't think you should group the 75 and all of its clones in one selection


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## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

Of those, I'd take the HK.


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## IndyRob (Oct 2, 2008)

What about the S&W M&P .40?

I know you guys are fans of Glocks, and think they are the bee's knees, but in the LEO community, you don't hear the term Sig leg, or H&K leg.
And Glock practically gives their hardware away, whereas neither Sig nor H&K does, so I'm not surprised that there's a Glock bias in the LEO community.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Sold 2 Glocks when I got my first Sigma. I never regretted that move. I know..Many will think I'm crazy but that's what I did and would do again.


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## TheReaper (Nov 14, 2008)

Taurus 24/7 .


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## xd9atl (Nov 30, 2008)

wow, there is a very differing opinion on here! lol

a lot for you to think about Don357


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

IndyRob said:


> I know you guys are fans of Glocks, and think they are the bee's knees, but in the LEO community, you don't hear the term Sig leg, or H&K leg.
> And Glock practically gives their hardware away, whereas neither Sig nor H&K does, so I'm not surprised that there's a Glock bias in the LEO community.


Please read my posts again. Cost is not everything. The fact that the Glocks are much more reliable than the Sigs and H&Ks has a lot to do with the Glocks' reputation. I am speaking from my own experiences teaching firearms at both the department and state academy levels. I saw problems with the Sigs and H&Ks but never with the Glocks. Also, I never saw anyone shoot themselves in the leg nor did I see a kaboom or whatever that is called. I have fired and observed others fire tens of thousands of rounds, most of them .40S&W and most of them with Glocks. So based on what I have personally seen, the Glock is a better weapon than the Sigs and H&Ks and I will always pick a Glock over any other semi-auto.

Now, I am not saying that my experiences are typical, but based on what I hear from others, they are as I am not the only one sold on the Glock be THE choice for service pistol. Nor am I saying that Sigs or H&Ks are bad guns; they great guns, just not at great as Glock in my opinion.

Last but not least, I never heard the term "Glock leg" as a member of the law enforcement community. I am pretty sure that is an internet term like kaboom, phase three malfunction and so on and so forth.

I did, however, hear all sorts of choice words when several Sigs jammed when they got too dirty and had to be cleaned several times in one day of training. I also heard such words when a deputy shot the slide of his brand new H&K USP across the pavement. The list goes on and on. To be fair, I did actually see a Glock problem once. The front sight got ripped off during a tactical reload drill. That is it.

Of course, I do not know what your professional background etc. is, but my opinions are based on what I have seen and been part of, not what I read on the internet or in gun magazines. I do not claim to know it all, but I think I am intelligent enough to draw conclusions from facts.

My conclusion remains that the Glock is the best semi-auto on the market for a law enforcement duty weapon. Of course I have been retired for five years so there may have been developments in firearms technology. For example, I do not know much about the Springfield XD or the M&P line from Smith & Wesson.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

IndyRob said:


> in the LEO community, you don't hear the term Sig leg, or H&K leg.


Care to explain what "Sig leg" or "H&K leg" means?

PhilR.


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## IndyRob (Oct 2, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Please read my posts again. Cost is not everything. The fact that the Glocks are much more reliable than the Sigs and H&Ks has a lot to do with the Glocks' reputation. I am speaking from my own experiences teaching firearms at both the department and state academy levels. I saw problems with the Sigs and H&Ks but never with the Glocks. Also, I never saw anyone shoot themselves in the leg nor did I see a kaboom or whatever that is called. I have fired and observed others fire tens of thousands of rounds, most of them .40S&W and most of them with Glocks. So based on what I have personally seen, the Glock is a better weapon than the Sigs and H&Ks and I will always pick a Glock over any other semi-auto.
> 
> Now, I am not saying that my experiences are typical, but based on what I hear from others, they are as I am not the only one sold on the Glock be THE choice for service pistol. Nor am I saying that Sigs or H&Ks are bad guns; they great guns, just not at great as Glock in my opinion.
> 
> ...


I'm very familliar with Sig 226's, not so much with the HK's and it's been my experience the Sigs I've experienced were quite reliable. 
I'm not doubting your experience, or judgement, in fact, it appears my resume is thin compared to yours, that being said, when it comes to Glock, it seems you either are a G guy, or not a G guy. I'm simply not a G guy.


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## IndyRob (Oct 2, 2008)

PhilR. said:


> Care to explain what "Sig leg" or "H&K leg" means?
> 
> PhilR.


There is no "Sig leg, or HK leg" that was my point.

Glock leg happens when you accidentally discharge into your leg or foot while drawing or holstering your Glock.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

IndyRob said:


> Glock leg happens when you accidentally discharge into your leg or foot while drawing or holstering your Glock.


There shouldn't be such a thing as "Glock leg" either. This type of scenario could happen with a Sig or HK or any other pistol for that matter, considering it is most commonly caused by operator error or improperly handling the pistol.

-Jeff-


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

IndyRob said:


> I'm very familliar with Sig 226's, not so much with the HK's and it's been my experience the Sigs I've experienced were quite reliable.


The Sig 226 is a great gun and very reliable. In my experience the Glock is more reliable.



IndyRob said:


> I'm not doubting your experience, or judgement, in fact, it appears my resume is thin compared to yours,


I did not mean to imply that you did not believe me, sorry if it came off that way. By the way, are you on the job?



IndyRob said:


> that being said, when it comes to Glock, it seems you either are a G guy, or not a G guy. I'm simply not a G guy.


Fair enough. I am very much a G guy, just in case there was any doubt. :mrgreen: I would carry a Sig, H&K, Beretta or any of the other common duty weapons with no problem. They are all great guns. As long, however, as I am free to choose, I choose Glock. :smt023


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

IndyRob said:


> What about the S&W M&P .40?


I agree, you can't leave the M&P off the list.

For me, a toss-up between the M&P and XD. I'm a huge XD fan, but my new M&P is growing on me.

JW


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## IndyRob (Oct 2, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> I did not mean to imply that you did not believe me, sorry if it came off that way. By the way, are you on the job?


Yes, I'm a newly Deputized Marshal here in Indiana


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## Don357 (Dec 4, 2007)

OK, "Glock Leg " can happen with any "Safe Action" trigger system such as is on the Glocks, S&W's, and several other pistols. After all the Sigma series S&W, is a copy/clone of the Glock. The Glock company even filed a suit against S&W when they first released the Sigma pistols. And I apologize about leaving the M&P off the list. It was meerly an oversight on my part. And also , as you can see, I left off the polymer framed 1911's. This was on purpose as they are a totally different animal.

Now, I know that I'm going to catch some flak about this, but here are my findings so far.

1) There is a definite bias in favor of Glock. But, those who are singing Glocks praises the loudest, have never tried much of anything else, and are going on the fact that because many LEO Depts issue them, they must be the best thing going. However, they are oblivious to the fact that civilian police depts operate on a municipal budget that is mandated by people who probably have never even held a gun, much less fired one or had to intrust their life to one. All they see is dollar signs. I'm not saying Glocks are bad guns, just not one I would buy or use unless I was like so many LEO's and forced to do so by my dept. Anyway, if they are so good, why doesn't the US military use them as the primary handgun of the US forces?

2) There are as many opinions as there is stars in the sky. And while it's impossible to officially determine the age of many of the posters/members on this forum, judging from many of the posts I've read, alot of the "experience" some are basing their opinions on, come from RPG Video games. While others get it from "I saw in a movie...", or "So and so said..." and even "I read it on a forum". There are lots of legitimate opinions here and I value each one. We just have to be cautious about which ones we believe and do our own research too.

3) There are lots of fantistic guns on the market, and many of them are being ignored and/or being put down because, a) they don't cost enough, b) there's a "guilt by association" thing (as in the case of Ruger and Bill Ruger's stance against hi-cap mags), which has absolutly nothing to do with the quality of the gun. And, c) they're just not cool looking or exotic enough. I run across this with guitars too.

4) Many people have the mindset that their's is the only opinion that counts and anybody that thinks differently is stupid. 


OK, lets keep this going a while longer. I'm getting some great stuff, and will update my findings later. 
Thanks for participating,
Don


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

Don357 said:


> OK, "Glock Leg " can happen with any "Safe Action" trigger system such as is on the Glocks, S&W's, and several other pistols.


I'm glad we agree on something. :mrgreen:



Don357 said:


> Anyway, if they are so good, why doesn't the US military use them as the primary handgun of the US forces?


Among with many other requirements, I believe one of the requirements for the Military was a manual safety. That alone disqualifies the Glock (obviously). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.



Don357 said:


> 2) There are as many opinions as there is stars in the sky. And while it's impossible to officially determine the age of many of the posters/members on this forum, judging from many of the posts I've read, alot of the "experience" some are basing their opinions on, come from RPG Video games. While others get it from "I saw in a movie...", or "So and so said..." and even "I read it on a forum". There are lots of legitimate opinions here and I value each one. We just have to be cautious about which ones we believe and do our own research too.


I don't know if I've ever seen anyone on this forum reference an RPG or video game or a movie as "experience." Perhaps I overlooked a couple? If you have any links to the threads, I would love to see them. You are making a pretty big accusation here. I get quite sickened by individuals that completely disregard every other brand or model of firearm, but I rarely see that happen around here. I'm far from claiming that I have a ton of experience, but just like _most_ of the people around here, I think there exists experience with a wide range of different firearms. Even those that rely on Glocks and speak so highly of them, most of those individuals have _at least_ a fair amount of experience with other firearms. I just recently purchased my first Glock, and I can see the attraction. I'm not saying they are for everybody, because there exists not a single firearm for everyone, but something can be said about the reliability, accuracy, etc.



Don357 said:


> 3) There are lots of fantistic guns on the market, and many of them are being ignored and/or being put down because, a) they don't cost enough, b) there's a "guilt by association" thing (as in the case of Ruger and Bill Ruger's stance against hi-cap mags), which has absolutly nothing to do with the quality of the gun. And, c) they're just not cool looking or exotic enough. I run across this with guitars too.


Just curious as to whether you're referencing this forum here? Again, I have very rarely, if ever, seen this type of thing on this forum.



Don357 said:


> 4) Many people have the mindset that their's is the only opinion that counts and anybody that thinks differently is stupid.


See above. I agree that this exists out there in the world (not just the firearms world). I also think that it's completely ridiculous and an immature way of thinking. Having said that, you may be confusing some comments and recommendations with this immature activity/logic. I very well could be wrong, but at least around this forum, this very seldom happens.

The reason I keep referencing this forum is because this "data" you're collecting is from this forum. I'm assuming this is what you mean by your "findings."



Don357 said:


> OK, lets keep this going a while longer. I'm getting some great stuff, and will update my findings later.
> Thanks for participating,
> Don


I'll be interested to see what kind of "findings" you come up with from this thread. :watching:

-Jeff-


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

BeefyBeefo said:


> I don't know if I've ever seen anyone on this forum reference an RPG or video game or a movie as "experience."


That's why I haven't participated in this thread so far. Call of Duty 4 only has the M9, USP, 1911, and Desert Eagle for pistols, so I don't have any experience with the Glock (unless they come up with a patch to add it). Now if you want to know about the M4, AK47, or MP5 I'm your man!

Wait a minute, what forum am I logged into? :smt017


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

Todd said:


> Wait a minute, what forum am I logged into? :smt017


:anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

IndyRob said:


> Yes, I'm a newly Deputized Marshal here in Indiana


Outstanding. :smt1099


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

BeefyBeefo said:


> :anim_lol::anim_lol:


Beefy? What are you doing here on the game forum?


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Don357 said:


> Now, I know that I'm going to catch some flak about this, but here are my findings so far.
> 
> 1) There is a definite bias in favor of Glock. But, those who are singing Glocks praises the loudest, have never tried much of anything else, and are going on the fact that because many LEO Depts issue them, they must be the best thing going. However, they are oblivious to the fact that civilian police depts operate on a municipal budget that is mandated by people who probably have never even held a gun, much less fired one or had to intrust their life to one. All they see is dollar signs. I'm not saying Glocks are bad guns, just not one I would buy or use unless I was like so many LEO's and forced to do so by my dept. Anyway, if they are so good, why doesn't the US military use them as the primary handgun of the US forces?


Don, why do you refuse to read my posts? I mean, you seem to ignore anything I write about reasons other than cost for Glocks being in good standing with LE. Also, me saying I like Glocks and being a retired cop does not indicate a "definite bias." Are you running this study on other sites as well and excluding the feedback you get there? Also, you "insight" in municipal budgets is a bunch of crap. You can't just assume that because it might be that way one place, it is like that everywhere. I would like to know what your background is. City manager, mayor, police chief, something along those lines? The line about the U.S. military not using Glocks is just silly. Speaking of low bid contract buying.



Don357 said:


> 2) There are as many opinions as there is stars in the sky. And while it's impossible to officially determine the age of many of the posters/members on this forum, judging from many of the posts I've read, alot of the "experience" some are basing their opinions on, come from RPG Video games. While others get it from "I saw in a movie...", or "So and so said..." and even "I read it on a forum". There are lots of legitimate opinions here and I value each one. We just have to be cautious about which ones we believe and do our own research too.


Maybe I am reading between the lines too much, but are you trying to imply that I am some video game playing kid making stuff up? I get the feeling that you are, based on your use of "experience." I think I have been pretty open about my background and such. Let's hear what you bring to the table.



Don357 said:


> 3) There are lots of fantistic guns on the market, and many of them are being ignored and/or being put down because, a) they don't cost enough, b) there's a "guilt by association" thing (as in the case of Ruger and Bill Ruger's stance against hi-cap mags), which has absolutly nothing to do with the quality of the gun. And, c) they're just not cool looking or exotic enough. I run across this with guitars too.


Again, where in this thread are you seeing this?



Don357 said:


> 4) Many people have the mindset that their's is the only opinion that counts and anybody that thinks differently is stupid.


Like who? Who on this board and in this thread has displayed that kind of attitude?



Don357 said:


> OK, lets keep this going a while longer. I'm getting some great stuff, and will update my findings later.
> Thanks for participating,
> Don


Would you care to state your thesis and your method of research for this project of yours? It seems to me that you are not really paying much attention to what is being posted but, rather, have something to say. Why not cut all the "I am getting good stuff" and tell us what the point is? After all, the title of your thread is "To make a point." Please make it already.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Todd said:


> Beefy? What are you doing here on the game forum?


That's funny! :anim_lol:


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Why not cut all the "I am getting good stuff" and tell us what the point is? After all, the title of your thread is "To make a point." Please make it already.


+1

Yes, please make your point, already!


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Ptarmigan said:


> After all, the title of your thread is "To make a point." Please make it already.


 +1! (That's a huge plus one) 

Let's get to the point and stop playing games, or one of us will put this thread out of its misery.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

:watching:


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

BeefyBeefo said:


> Among with many other requirements, I believe one of the requirements for the Military was a manual safety. That alone disqualifies the Glock (obviously). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> -Jeff-


The primary reason the Glock was not chosen during the M-9 contract (replacement of the M1911 and M38 as primary sidearm) bid AND the re-bid was that they didn't submit a candidate for evaluation/trials. The SiG didn't have a manual safety and actually out performed the Beretta in several areas of evaluation. SiG actually got selected by the Secret Service and SOCOM as their replacement for the M1911. SOCOM now chooses to have a little of everything available for training purposes. There is NO official word on what is issued when elements deploy, nor would I expect there to be.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

Growler67 said:


> The primary reason the Glock was not chosen during the M-9 contract (replacement of the M1911 and M38 as primary sidearm) bid AND the re-bid was that they didn't submit a candidate for evaluation/trials. The SiG didn't have a manual safety and actually out performed the Beretta in several areas of evaluation. SiG actually got selected by the Secret Service and SOCOM as their replacement for the M1911. SOCOM now chooses to have a little of everything available for training purposes. There is NO official word on what is issued when elements deploy, nor would I expect there to be.


Thanks for the clarification. :smt023

-Jeff-


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

The Secret Service is not part of the military. I believe you mean CID, the Criminal Investigative Division. The Sig Sauer P228 is known as the M11 in the U.S. military.

Also, I do not think SOCOM chose a sidearm so to speak. SF normally uses the M9, the SEALs the Sig Sauer P226, Delta whatever they want, some of the Marine units (now part of SOCOM) use a Kimber 1911 of some sort. 

My understanding is that the M9 is the official sidearm of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force, with the M11 being used for certain MOS and/or units. The H&K SOCOM, which is a huge .45ACP, is also used. It does seem that other sidearms are being used, and units like Delta can probably use whatever they want.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Umm..Where is the point and how do we get to it?:smt083


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> The Secret Service is not part of the military.........The Sig Sauer P228 is known as the M11 in the U.S. military.


I didn't say the SS was part of the Military. They chose the SiG in part because of it's performance in the M-9 competition. Also because it was smoother on the exterior (no apendages like external safeties and such) for ease in concealability without snagging on the draw. The Navy has the M-11 as one of the available options for their aviators to carry as a sidearm.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

DevilsJohnson said:


> Umm..Where is the point and how do we get to it?:smt083


We don't know and never will.

I am of the opinion that this thread is a veiled attempt at Glock bashing and seriously doubt there is any sort of "research" going on. While I do not own a Glock nor am I a "fan boy", I do recognize they make a quality pistol. Since this thread has not proven to create any sort of meaningful discussion, and since the OP has not responded to many members' request to get to the point he was saying he had, we can all stop wasting our time with this thread.


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