# Critical defense?



## nukehayes (Sep 22, 2006)

So, I haven't seen any of this stuff in person, but I have seen a few articles on it at Golden Loki and a youtube video with Dick Metcalf. My question is, is the rubber insert in the cavity super squishy or kinda hard and plasticy. My reason for asking, can I replicate this reliable expansion effect by using plain old hot glue in the existing HP cavity. I have some bulk Remington UMC 88gr JHP that shoot and group really well, but when fired into milk jugs out of my PPK/S, the nose closes up on itself, making it a great FMJ. I have experimented with a few rounds by cutting though the jacket where the existing lines are, see picture, and the result in milk jugs is amazing. ~.64 cal measured petal tip to petal tip, however, it did shed it jacket. Now, instead of removing metal, I think using hot glue in the cavity would help. Your thoughts/ opinions? I have no intention of using this for self/home defense, just the mechanic in me tinkering around. Picture: http://img149.imageshack.us/i/88grjhpmod.tif//


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

I'm interested to see some before and after pics. There are a lot of plastic tipped bullets coming out now and I have a feeling there is a bit more engineering that goes in to them than just plopping a dab of plastic on something they already have in inventory. if you're just looking to maximize expansion of the bullet when it hits the water jug, you'll likely do better with something harder than hot glue in the tip of the hollow point. Maybe an epoxy (JB Weld, etc) or even a steel core BB???


And once again, some before and after pics of the bullets!!! :watching:


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## nukehayes (Sep 22, 2006)

Sorry can't get you guys any before and after pics for a few months as the expanded rounds are packed up with the rest of my worldly things to be shipped to Pearl Harbor, HI. Gotta love the Navy. I'm mostly bummed out I had to leave my reloading equipment in OH with my dad, they can't ship the powders and primers and I hear that getting components in HI is a real [email protected]#$.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

Good luck! 

From what I've heard, Pearl Harbor isn't such a bad place to be stationed. :smt023


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I'd of liked to see those too.From the image shack pic I'm not all that sure about what ya got there. It looks like there is plastic down on the shoulder of the bullet(?)


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## nukehayes (Sep 22, 2006)

The pic I put on image shack was of a normal Remington 88gr JHP that I cut the jacket. I don't want to cut the jacket to get it to expand, I just wanna fill it in with hot glue to see if I can get a little bit better controlled expansion.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Keep in mind that if you are considering buying off the shelf factory produced ammo and then altering it in some way, you may be in for very much more trouble if you ever have to use it. Legally altering ammunition isn't something that is allowable by law. As the direction of this thread is beginning to go, I would think the Mods/Administrator of this forum would frown on any further discussion. Generally discussions of illegal or potentially illegal activities is a no-no. FWIW.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Growler67 said:


> Keep in mind that if you are considering buying off the shelf factory produced ammo and then altering it in some way, you may be in for very much more trouble if you ever have to use it. Legally altering ammunition isn't something that is allowable by law. As the direction of this thread is beginning to go, I would think the Mods/Administrator of this forum would frown on any further discussion. Generally discussions of illegal or potentially illegal activities is a no-no. FWIW.


Growler67, I am unaware of any such laws that apply to civilians, although that doesn't mean a great deal, as there are thousands of laws throughout our great land, and I obviously don't know them all. I am aware that military members are not allowed to modify military-issued ammunition, and I wouldn't be surprised if some police departments and security companies also had similar rules/regulations in this area, but I've never heard of non-military laws/regs/rules to this effect. If you have any links to examples, I'd love to see them.

I guess if someone showed me there was something like this somewhere in California or New York or New Jersey, I wouldn't be too surprised.

Now, I do know that Tracer ammo is illegal in some areas, for instance, and if you took non-tracer ammo and modified it to "trace", then of course that would be covered under the original ban. I assume the same thing would apply to having/making hollowpoints in areas where use/possession are restricted.

Not saying that any of this is a good idea, just that it's not illegal to modify ammo from one legal-to-possess type to another, as far as I know.

So, what can you show us? Links?


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## nukehayes (Sep 22, 2006)

I wish you guys would really read my first post starting this thread, I clearly stated that I have absolutely NO intention of using this for self/ home defense, just purely for the tinkering aspect of it. On the plus side, my wife and I just found a house out here on Oahu that we really like and are excited to move in. Lots of room in the garage for my work/reloading bench. :smt1099


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

nukehayes said:


> On the plus side, my wife and I just found a house out here on Oahu that we really like and are excited to move in.


Looks like you're going to have to edit your location information. :smt023


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

nukehayes said:


> I wish you guys would really read my first post starting this thread, I clearly stated that I have absolutely NO intention of using this for self/ home defense, just purely for the tinkering aspect of it. On the plus side, my wife and I just found a house out here on Oahu that we really like and are excited to move in. Lots of room in the garage for my work/reloading bench. :smt1099


I read it, and I understand where you're coming from. I did the same kind of "tinkering" when I was just getting into shooting and reloading. Heck, there were articles in the major gun magazines of the 70s and 80s that talked of ammo modifications and wild reloads. Multiple thin wadcutters in the same revolver case, pointy cast lead slugs, adding various "stuff" to JHP cavities; all semi-normal back then.

One of my favorite articles (mag is saved somewhere in my vast library) was titled "Dracula Droppers." Wooden bullets, hand profiled and cut from hardwood dowels chucked in a drill press, loaded over a stiff charge of fast burning powder. I made up a few .44 Mags just for giggles. Horribly inaccurate, but an interesting combination of no recoil, a thunderous roar, and a massive flashbulb-type flash on firing; and splinters everywhere if they hit something. :mrgreen:

Ah, those were the days. I sometimes wonder how I survived them...


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

DJ Niner said:


> Not saying that any of this is a good idea, just that it's not illegal to modify ammo from one legal-to-possess type to another, as far as I know.
> 
> So, what can you show us? Links?


I haven't found any links for backing up what I stated. I was possibly mixing a few things though. The Military clause as mentioned combined with a couple of articles I read several years ago where an individual was being prosecuted for putting Mercury into the well of JHP bullets and sealing it in with parafin or crazy glue or something. The prosecutor was arguing that modifying the bullet to do more damage when used over and above what the manufacturer had designed and tested was agregious not to mention poisoning a potential victim with a toxic substance so-on and so-on. IIRC, the BATFE was involved because of the modification of factory produced ammo fell into their realm of definition and jurisdiction. I don't even remember where I was reading it now but the articles were about the same case.

Sorry to have made an assertion without having anything to back it up. It does seem very plausible, IMO, that any given prosecutor would take the tack that I read about when one takes it upon themselves to modify/alter something of this nature (ammunition). I don't think this was a state prosecution because of the BATFE's involvement. Without the resources to design and test such modifications (after the fact - purchased factory produced ammo) just seems like a bad idea to me from any angle. Just sayin'.

If I find any references or recall where I had read about the case mentioned, I'll post with an update.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Thanks for letting us know your train of thought on the subject. I know I've heard stuff like this on TV shows and in movies more than a few times, so something like that might have stuck in the back of your mind as well. I usually remember references like that because of the effect on my blood pressure... :smt076

:mrgreen:


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Growler67 said:


> I haven't found any links for backing up what I stated. I was possibly mixing a few things though. The Military clause as mentioned combined with a couple of articles I read several years ago where an individual was being prosecuted for putting Mercury into the well of JHP bullets and sealing it in with parafin or crazy glue or something. The prosecutor was arguing that modifying the bullet to do more damage when used over and above what the manufacturer had designed and tested was agregious not to mention poisoning a potential victim with a toxic substance so-on and so-on. IIRC, the BATFE was involved because of the modification of factory produced ammo fell into their realm of definition and jurisdiction. I don't even remember where I was reading it now but the articles were about the same case.
> 
> Sorry to have made an assertion without having anything to back it up. It does seem very plausible, IMO, that any given prosecutor would take the tack that I read about when one takes it upon themselves to modify/alter something of this nature (ammunition). I don't think this was a state prosecution because of the BATFE's involvement. Without the resources to design and test such modifications (after the fact - purchased factory produced ammo) just seems like a bad idea to me from any angle. Just sayin'.
> 
> If I find any references or recall where I had read about the case mentioned, I'll post with an update.


Well I would imagine that if a person was to use the ammo in a defense situation there might be the same type of backlash or even more using the mind set of creating the projectile at home trying to hurt peope more. Like using reloads as carry ammo. I still am at a loss how that even could work being you are shooting someone. I think the intention is clear what you want to accomplish. But that's another thread. The OP says that he just wants to play around with them for personal use then have at it...I guess. It's not something I would do but there are probably a lot of things people do that I wouldn't. It's hard to say what is right or wrong about it unless he used it in a defense situation. I'm sure the lawyers, being it's what lawyers do, would have something to say about it.


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