# Pocket Carry Opinions



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

You've probably heard some variation of the old saying, "The first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun," and you may have heard someone say about a particularly unsatisfactory self-defense gun that it is at least "better than a sharp stick." Both of these sayings are in my mind, when I have nothing more than a pocket gun.

Almost any gun that you can carry in your pocket is really too small to be very confident with in a gunfight. Granted that gunfights are to be avoided at all costs, but when you choose to carry, you are basically committing to the prospect of getting into one, should it ever be required to save your own life, or someone else's. You must consider the worst-case scenarios, if you are to be prepared and committed, should the need arise.

Some will argue that the Rohrbaugh or PM-9 fit in a pocket, and that 9mm is adequate. But having owned a PM-9, which is only a quarter inch longer than a Rohrbaugh, this is a stretch. With blue jeans, or slightly less so with khakis, it still makes a fairly obvious bulge. A Smart-Carry rig is a good way to carry this size gun, but it is very hot in the summer, and is not appropriate for just any situation. And although it is true that 9mm is an adequate self-defense round...if you can hit where you aim...the average person cannot shoot the little ones very accurately, past about 5 yards. Also, many, like me, have large hands that make shooting a small gun very difficult, and it requires a lot of practice to overcome this, especially since it is combined with the short sighting radius. 

That's fine, because practice is fun, right? Well, practice gets to be work, when shooting a small handgun, and none but the most disciplined of human beings will continue to do it as diligently as he should, over time. Most of us struggle to get in enough range time to stay proficient, and typically, we end up shooting the guns we enjoy shooting more than anything else, meaning we will probably burn through a couple of magazines with the 'pocket gun,' and call that good.

And then there are the .380 and smaller mouse guns, which actually are legitimate pocket guns. But in the hands of most folks, they are not very accurate, and therefore not very effective. Personally, I consider my LCP to be fit for nothing but a point-blank, last ditch effort at self-defense...and nothing more. And let's be realistic - if your attacker is on drugs, or highly motivated by the need for drugs, he may still beat you to death or carve you up, before he even realizes that you have put 2 or 3 slugs into his chest, that he is eventually going to die from.

So, my conclusion is that, ideally, a person should make great efforts to conform his mode of dress around a good self-defense gun, if at all possible. For me, and a lot of others, it's just not possible, so we do the best we can, and try to heighten our situational awareness to the point that we never get into anything that requires a gun to get out of. The mouse-gun is for that one-in-a-thousand (hopefully) situation that just slipped up on us, or that circumstances just somehow allowed to happen, in spite of all our precautions to the contrary.

What's your opinion?


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## forestranger (Jan 20, 2008)

Agree. I got in the bad habit of only carrying a P3AT quite a bit. Had a situation with a very large person wearing a heavy coat where I thought I was going to have to use it. Did draw but didn't have to shoot. It made me "re-evaluate" things. Now, a 9mm w/+p's is minimum.


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## Joeywhat (Apr 17, 2008)

I have no problems carrying my LCP (when I had it) as my primary. Now that I have a good holster for my G19 it will get some more use...but for the most part I like the comfort and small foot print left by the pocket guns. 

I'm really not worried about it being "enough gun", either. I realize it's not the best choice for a lot of situations, however it IS a gun, and it's better then trying to wrestle some dude. I don't see my fat ass running away too quick, either.

That being said, since I did sell the LCP I'll probably move up to a walther PPS, or if I'm making a few more bones a Rohrbaugh.


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## wjh2657 (Jun 18, 2008)

I have never felt under armed with a .38 Spl. All of the multiple target scenarios are very unrealistic to me. (I have 6 years in VN combat action) as I really believe you are pretty much out of luck in a multiple threat even with an assault rifle (been there, have Purple Heart to show it). My fear is being jumped by one or two BGs up close or being asked to lay down on the floor (execution). 3-5 .38 COM should buy me some chance of survival. I don't have the time or inclination to train on a constant basis for SWAT ( and that is what you are talking with multiple threat.) I am not saying it can't be done, but I feel it is far too risky for one person to try to execute alone. SWAT does this with multiple good guys too, remember. Given my realistic scenario, a .38 or 9mm/.40 S&W should suffice and they come in weapons small enough to be carried.
My preference is a J-frame S&W.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

wjh2657 said:


> My preference is a J-frame S&W.


Do you carry it in your pocket?

I have a Model 642 also, and I also feel fairly confident with it, inside of ten yards. But it prints pretty noticeably through a blue jeans pocket. It works OK in some khakis, or in a coat pocket, but I can't carry it everywhere I can carry the mouse guns.

My point, really, is that I believe most folks will decide not to carry a j-frame or a small 9mm, because they are just not quite small enough for everyday carry in a pocket, and will therefore probably end up with a .380 or a .32, for convenience, either one of which is very suspect in its ability to stop a genuine threat.

Most of the folks who are rushing to get their carry permits don't realize what a pain in the butt it is to carry every day, everywhere that they legally can. Also most have not thought it out far enough to realize that if they don't carry all the time, they are quite likely to simply guess wrong about when they will need to defend themselves.


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## wjh2657 (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, I pocket carry the 642 and the 640. It really depends on your choice of clothing. I wear Haggar and Docker slacks, _Relaxed Fit_, and pleated. The 64xs disappear into the pocket. I usually carry the 642 during warm weather, belt only. I carry the 640 in corduroys( again _Relaxed Fit_) in colder weather, belt and Perry suspenders, with a sweat shirt or sweater over the suspenders.

I found that I couldn't effectively pocket carry in jeans either. When I wear jeans I carry the 60 with a Clip Carry IWB (with undershirt). I always wear a loose shirt or sweatshirt outside the pants when I wear jeans so the gun is hidden. I leave the Clip Carry on the gun and it is my dedicated jeans and "just stick it in your pants" gun.

If you are really more comfortable with more stylish, hence more tight fitting, clothings, you may very well end up having to carry a .32 or .380.

You have to go with what fits your life style, or you will stop carrying.


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## hemmigremmie (Jan 23, 2008)

I like the smaller guns. Use good ammo. HG


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## Old Padawan (Mar 16, 2007)

Tom Jones called, he wants his pants back…:mrgreen:

Seriously, it’s the pants. You make note of dressing around the gun, the same is true of pocket guns. 

Pocket holsters work best with trousers that are a bit loose in the front of the body. Like any other carry method the effectiveness of the carry will change from person to person based on physical shape and clothing.

Mike and I were in the store once and I actually asked him if he was armed. I couldn’t tell. He was wearing a G26 in the front pocket of his cargo shorts.

I don’t often use a pocket holster, when I do its with a P3AT. I do not feel underarmed. 

I sense the eer present argument of the inadequacies of the 9mm in our future… (sigh) How many people does a caliber have to kill before it is accepted?


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

I just picked up my 642 last night...Now I have to decide how I am gonna carry it...I wear jeans...I never wear corduroys or khaki's...I dont wear jeans real loose or real tight...I may find an IWB or OWB holster to carry it..When it gets colder, I will probably switch to my XD9 as a gun ON me..

time will tell...

by the way..I shot .38 special +p ammo through it..At 21-25 ft I was hitting all groupings in the chest area of the target although not tight groups..Definitely a handful too shoot versus 38 special in the GP100..

Willy


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Old Padawan said:


> Mike and I were in the store once and I actually asked him if he was armed. I couldn't tell. He was wearing a G26 in the front pocket of his cargo shorts.


Some of us should not wear shorts. :mrgreen:

I don't wear tight pants, nor do I feel undergunned with a 9mm or a .38+P. I can conceal either of these, or something larger, about half of the time. It has more to do with the size of the pocket, anyway, than how tight the pants are. But, rather than argue about what can be concealed and how, I would rather just address the point I was trying to make.

My point is just that a person who, for whatever reason, has settled for a mouse gun should not make the mistake of thinking that they have all the bases covered, when it comes to self-defense. It _can_ save you, depending upon the persistence and aggressiveness of your attacker. But, things like distance, time, accuracy, and several other factors are always in play, no matter how you are armed, and in my opinion, you have seriously degraded your ability to address these factors, once you step down from something like a G26 to something like a P3AT.

It is not just that it is a weaker round, but also that you are firing it from a weaker platform, one that does not lend itself to a high degree of accuracy...especially in a highly stressful situation. I'm a firm believer that proper shot placement is the most crucial part of defending yourself with a gun, and even though I shoot my LCP a little better than most folks I see shooting such guns, I am not at all confident that I would be able to stop a determined attacker with it, at least no before he was able to do some damage of his own.


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## Old Padawan (Mar 16, 2007)

Bisley said:


> Some of us should not wear shorts. :mrgreen:
> 
> It is not just that it is a weaker round, but also that you are firing it from a weaker platform, one that does not lend itself to a high degree of accuracy...especially in a highly stressful situation. I'm a firm believer that proper shot placement is the most crucial part of defending yourself with a gun, and even though I shoot my LCP a little better than most folks I see shooting such guns, I am not at all confident that I would be able to stop a determined attacker with it, at least no before he was able to do some damage of his own.


What level of accuracy are you looking for in a pocket pistol? I have never had a problem striking center body mass with the 3AT at 7 yards while moving.
If you feel the caliber to be inadequate, don't carry it. No insult or snide comment intended. If you don't have confidence in a tool, choose another tool. 
"Determined attacker". There are documented cases of .45, and .357mag shots not stopping a "determined attacker". There are also documented cases of .22 - .380 caliber handguns putting a stop to problems.
I should mention that I am being a bit of a devils advocate here. I seldom carry my P3AT. I refuse to let the weather decide what I will carry. I have carried either a 4 1/4" 1911 or a G23 for the last 20 years (some others tossed in for short term). 
I carry a 40 as opposed to a 9 only because it l was the best deal I could get on a compact Glock at the time. The caliber made zero difference in my choice.
My comment comes around to what it generally does in postings such as this. It isn't about the equipment (the gun or the caliber), it's about the person. Bring the proper mindset, Get competent training and then practice, practice, practice&#8230;


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Old Padawan said:


> I should mention that I am being a bit of a devils advocate here.


Well, I thought that's what I was doing, since I have already stated that I do carry an LCP quite often, and that I do shoot it fairly well. Pardon me for encroaching on your personal turf. In the future, I'll try to just stick to the discussions on which is better, 9mm or .40 cal. I never get tired of those stimulating discussions. No sarcasm intended.


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## Old Padawan (Mar 16, 2007)

UUUMMMMM OK?:?

Not sure how, but I seem to have insulted you. Not intentional.

Not loosing sleep either.:smt172


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## hemmigremmie (Jan 23, 2008)

forestranger said:


> Agree. I got in the bad habit of only carrying a P3AT quite a bit. Had a situation with a very large person wearing a heavy coat where I thought I was going to have to use it. Did draw but didn't have to shoot. It made me "re-evaluate" things. Now, a 9mm w/+p's is minimum.


Aim for the head or thighs. Hg:mrgreen:


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

well.......
not sure of the second post by Bisley but his first post i had to disagree
and with others
stand out there at 7 yards or less and let me shoot you
see how it feels
I think that having a 380 in the front pants pocket is very satisfactory for 99% of civilians
If you are a police officer or related then you are use to carrying a heavier weapon
Someone mentioned a person running at 7 yds - he better be running at you or you could find yourself going to jail if you shoot him - try defending a person running away from you......


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

hideit said:


> well.......
> not sure of the second post by Bisley but his first post i had to disagree
> and with others <snip>


What can I clarify for you? I have merely stated an opinion, and asked for others to submit their own. I just think this is an interesting topic for discussion. Saying, "I disagree," or "You're wrong," isn't discussion, unless you expand upon it a little bit.

All I'm saying is that a person should carry the best gun they can conceal, and never be over-confident about its ability to rescue them from dangerous situations.

I like my LCP just fine. I'm not attacking the utility of the gun, or anyone's judgment for carrying one. As I said, it is what I have to settle for, myself, a large amount of the time.

But I'll admit that I do worry about someone who thinks a gun like this is the answer to all of the many self-defense scenarios that a person can find himself in.


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

I'm sooooooooooo confused!!!

:watching:


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