# Polymer Frame: What does it mean?



## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

I don't know much about polymer pistol frames (yet), but I do know a bit about polymers. When a manufacturer says "polymer frame", what do they mean? What polymer? Some are more suitable for this particular application than others. If the polymer is polyethylene or polypropylene), solvents can't do much to harm it. Want proof? Concentrated acids (H2SO4, etc.) are shipped in polyethylene bottles--just check at your local Ace Hardware store. These are low cost, light weight, high performance thermoplastics with a range of physical properties which can be altered to an amazing degree by the mixing in of additives (talc, glass beads, etc., which makes them tougher and further lowers the cost.) Probably the only reason we don't see polymer slides is that they don't take heat well (so far).


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

Polymer engineering - What is the Glock frame made of?


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## TomR (Jul 17, 2014)

"Polymer Frame: What does it mean? "

To me it means plastic gun. I do NOT do plastic guns!


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Polymer is a sufficient , lightweight material for its intended purpose.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TomR said:


> "Polymer Frame: What does it mean? "
> 
> To me it means plastic gun. I do NOT do plastic guns!


Why not?


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Hauptmann said:


> I don't know much about polymer pistol frames (yet), but I do know a bit about polymers. When a manufacturer says "polymer frame", what do they mean? What polymer? Some are more suitable for this particular application than others. If the polymer is polyethylene or polypropylene), solvents can't do much to harm it. Want proof? Concentrated acids (H2SO4, etc.) are shipped in polyethylene bottles--just check at your local Ace Hardware store. These are low cost, light weight, high performance thermoplastics with a range of physical properties which can be altered to an amazing degree by the mixing in of additives (talc, glass beads, etc., which makes them tougher and further lowers the cost.) Probably the only reason we don't see polymer slides is that they don't take heat well (so far).


I don't know about all that, but I do know that Glocks work, and that a whole host of major gun manufacturers now make and sell "plastic" guns bc they are safe, reliable and accurate firearms that are cheaper to produce and often out perform the more traditional "steel" guns some old timers swear are better. Goes back to an old quote I read from Mark Twain. "Ignorance ain't what you don't know, it's what you do know that ain't so."


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## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

I suspect that Glock uses a glass-filled polypropylene, but I don't know for sure. Hence the question--what DO they use?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Secret recipe.... like KFC.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

I don't know for sure. But Bob Vogel sure makes it look good.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> Secret recipe.... like KFC.


It's one of those things that any competitor can easily determine. Chances are they all use essentially the same formula. _Hauptman_, you'll have to ask someone who knows, eh?


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## TomR (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Why not?


Simply because the idea of holding a piece of plastic with a detonating explosive charge setting on top of it, isn't appealing to me and I think a stupid idea!


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

TomR said:


> Simply because the idea of holding a piece of plastic with a detonating explosive charge setting on top of it, isn't appealing to me and I think a stupid idea!


That is one of my favorite things to do. Plenty of people with thousands of rounds through their glocks without an issue including myself.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TomR said:


> Simply because the idea of holding a piece of plastic with a detonating explosive charge setting on top of it, isn't appealing to me and I think a stupid idea!


I could understand that thought process over 20 years ago when Glock first came on the scene, but I have fired literally THOUSANDS of rounds through these plastic guns, and I have never had one explode in my hand. I have read articles where stainless steel pistols have cracked under the pressure of the 10MM round, but the Glock plastic gun is still holding it together. Thousands of others have done the same, but don't take my word for it. Just ask the 65% of law enforcement that currently use a Glock. Of course, I really don't care one way or the other if you ever take to shooting the most reliable pistols on the market! To each his own, but you're missing out on some of the finest pistols on the market which are REALLY reliable and fun to shoot. It's just funny to see someone still holding on to that "I think plastic guns are stupid" line today. Clearly these guns work, and if it works, it isn't stupid. Which begs the question...what is stupid?


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## TomR (Jul 17, 2014)

Read my statement that you quoted.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I did. So are you saying your statement is stupid?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Polymer framed pistols are just as safe as metal frames... i've never heard of anyone having an issue/problem with a frame simply because it was polymer (and not due to some other issue). I understand that some have not warmed up to the idea of polymer pistols... and may never. Some people still use a weaver stance and do the tea cup & saucer grip as well. To each their own I guess... some adapt and change as we make advances in training and construction materials and others stay stuck in a certain place in time... refusing to accept progress or new ideas.

Don't get me wrong... more than half my guns are all metal (Sig/Beretta/CZ to name a few), but polymere is strong, light and durable.... they've been around long enough and used in the field long enough that that FACT is hard to dispute...it is not a passing fad. 

I love my Kahr CM9 and M&P Pro (polymer frames)... and rely on a Glock 22 to protect myself or others on duty. So far no issues since the mid 90's when most departments started utilizing em'.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Speaking of the Kahr, have you had any issues with it?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Nope... smoothest double action i've felt on a subcompact yet. It's more difficult to break down than a Sig, M&P or Glock... but it's not like I plan on field stripping it on the street in a hurry. Small, reliable and light... and 9mm... just what I want.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

OK...I've been looking at them for a placement gun, per se...you know, have a weapon where you need it kind of thing. Tea pot, etc, but don't want junk.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Btw, polymer and plastic aren't the same material. Anyone who calls polymer frame guns "plastic" really do themselves an injustice.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Btw, polymer and plastic aren't the same material. Anyone who calls polymer frame guns "plastic" really do themselves an injustice.


Most plastics aren't plastic anymore, either....


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## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

"Plastic" is a generic term which encompasses a broad range of substances, many (or most) of which are polymers. Metal, too, is a generic term--steel and titanium are metals, but so are tin, sodium and mercury. Some plastics, like some metals, are suitable for gun frames. Some are not. You could fashion a gun out of lead, have it explode, and then condemn ANY gun made of metal. When I was a kid (in the '50's), I stuffed a firecracker into the barrel of a plastic toy gun and blew the hell out of it. I probably said at the time that a plastic gun was a bad idea. I later learned much more about plastics and about the tremendous range of physical properties available. So did the aerospace industry, and many others, including the firearms industry. Enter Glock and Ruger, among many others.

After doing a bit of research, I learned that the Glock frame is made of Zytel, which is Dupont's trade name for its glass-filled nylon. It is indeed a polymer, and thus a plastic. Ruger makes its polymer frames out of glass-filled nylon too. Maybe Zytel maybe not. As the science and engineering of polymers progresses, We're bound to see them fill more and more roles in manufactured products.


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## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

"Plastic" is a generic term which encompasses a broad range of substances, many (or most) of which are polymers. Metal, too, is a generic term--steel and titanium are metals, but so are tin, sodium and mercury. Some plastics, like some metals, are suitable for gun frames. Some are not. You could fashion a gun out of lead, have it explode, and then condemn ANY gun made of metal. When I was a kid (in the '50's), I stuffed a firecracker into the barrel of a plastic toy gun and blew the hell out of it. I probably said at the time that a plastic gun was a bad idea. I later learned much more about plastics and about the tremendous range of physical properties available. So did the aerospace industry, and many others, including the firearms industry. Enter Glock and Ruger, among many others.

After doing a bit of research, I learned that the Glock frame is made of Zytel, which is Dupont's trade name for its glass-filled nylon. It is indeed a polymer, and thus a plastic. Ruger makes its polymer frames out of glass-filled nylon too. Maybe Zytel maybe not. As the science and engineering of polymers progresses, We're bound to see them fill more and more roles in manufactured products.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

TomR:


> To me it means plastic gun. I do NOT do plastic guns!


Yeah, I felt the same way. At one time I swore I'd never own a polymer gun until I bought one. The advantages are that you can have a double stack magazine and maintain a narrow grip frame since there are no grip panels. In the case of the Springfield XDS series (single stack) an extremely flat gun. The frame is also impervious to weather, sweat and finger print etching. There is no finish to wear off and they are light weight. They are cheaper to manufacture yet still maintain their reliability and quality. As much as I like all stainless steel guns the weight can be a bit much for EDC or pocket carry. Since I bought them I find that the compact Glocks, the G26, G30 and Springfield XDS .45 are now my favorite pistols to carry. Sure, the all metal guns look better with their nice grip panels against all that finely machined metal I just hate like Hell to scratch them up by carrying them everyday either aluminum or carbon steel guns that are blued or painted. I usually polish my stainless guns instead of leaving them bead blasted this way if they do get scratched you can easily polish it out. Against a bead blasted finish scratches stand out like a sore thumb.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Hauptmann:
Interesting information regarding polymers!


> Probably the only reason we don't see polymer slides is that they don't take heat well (so far).


I believe the FN "Five Seven" has a polymer clad slide and so does the Kel Tec "PMR 30" perhaps this could be the wave of the future? An all polymer slide? Maybe, but I doubt that the breech face could hold up to it unless it had a steel insert. As with most polymer frame guns the recoil spring absorbs most of the recoil along with the steel locking block that is incorporated into the frame. Someone made a 3-D printed gun entirely made out of plastic, I believe it was a .380. The barrel was about 2 inches thick, I think it blew up after a few rounds. But even if the barrel could hold up to the explosion a hot lead or jacketed bullet would most certainly melt the plastic as it travels down the barrel. I don't foresee a time when plastic or polymers will have a higher melting point than lead or copper. Might make a good choice for a gun that is extremely cheap and could only be used once, that is to save your life. Providing it just melts and doesn't explode.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Hauptmann said:


> "Plastic" is a generic term which encompasses a broad range of substances, many (or most) of which are polymers. Metal, too, is a generic term--steel and titanium are metals, but so are tin, sodium and mercury. Some plastics, like some metals, are suitable for gun frames. Some are not. You could fashion a gun out of lead, have it explode, and then condemn ANY gun made of metal. When I was a kid (in the '50's), I stuffed a firecracker into the barrel of a plastic toy gun and blew the hell out of it. I probably said at the time that a plastic gun was a bad idea. I later learned much more about plastics and about the tremendous range of physical properties available. So did the aerospace industry, and many others, including the firearms industry. Enter Glock and Ruger, among many others.
> 
> After doing a bit of research, I learned that the Glock frame is made of Zytel, which is Dupont's trade name for its glass-filled nylon. It is indeed a polymer, and thus a plastic. Ruger makes its polymer frames out of glass-filled nylon too. Maybe Zytel maybe not. As the science and engineering of polymers progresses, We're bound to see them fill more and more roles in manufactured products.


While it is true that all plastics are polymers, not all polymers are plastics. That said, the point is that these guns are not just "plastic". Polymer isn't just a "plastic" material. In fact, borrowing a quote from Glock, the plastic used to make the Glock (Polymer 2) was specially formulated to provide increased durability and is more resilient than carbon steel and most steel alloys. Polymer 2 is resistant to shock, caustic liquids and temperature extremes where traditional steel/alloy frames would warp and become brittle. So, lament all you want "plastic" gun haters, but your opinions are unqualified. Now if you just don't like them bc you prefer steel, fine! Who cares! But to say they are unsafe bc they are plastic...science and years of proven service say otherwise.


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## TomR (Jul 17, 2014)

desertman said:


> TomR:
> 
> Yeah, I felt the same way. At one time I swore I'd never own a polymer gun until I bought one. The advantages are that you can have a double stack magazine and maintain a narrow grip frame since there are no grip panels. In the case of the Springfield XDS series (single stack) an extremely flat gun. The frame is also impervious to weather, sweat and finger print etching. There is no finish to wear off and they are light weight. They are cheaper to manufacture yet still maintain their reliability and quality. As much as I like all stainless steel guns the weight can be a bit much for EDC or pocket carry. Since I bought them I find that the compact Glocks, the G26, G30 and Springfield XDS .45 are now my favorite pistols to carry. Sure, the all metal guns look better with their nice grip panels against all that finely machined metal I just hate like Hell to scratch them up by carrying them everyday either aluminum or carbon steel guns that are blued or painted. I usually polish my stainless guns instead of leaving them bead blasted this way if they do get scratched you can easily polish it out. Against a bead blasted finish scratches stand out like a sore thumb.


Happy for you. If I decide to buy a plastic gun it will be a squirt gun and I'll give to my Grandson.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

TomR:


> Happy for you. If I decide to buy a plastic gun it will be a squirt gun and I'll give to my Grandson.


I've got all steel, all stainless, aluminum alloy, and polymer guns I like 'em all and have nothing against any of them. Don't have any squirt guns though or grandkids for that matter.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

desertman said:


> TomR:
> 
> I've got all steel, all stainless, aluminum alloy, and polymer guns I like 'em all and have nothing against any of them. Don't have any squirt guns though or grandkids for that matter.


You know, I do too! I have owned many over the years, and I like them all...well, those of good quality anyway! But to each their own. I have no problems with anyone sticking with what they know and love. Nothing wrong with that! I just don't summarily dismiss anything without at least some level of actual research and testing. I think that is stupid.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Hauptmann said:


> I don't know much about polymer pistol frames (yet), but I do know a bit about polymers. When a manufacturer says "polymer frame", what do they mean? What polymer? Some are more suitable for this particular application than others. If the polymer is polyethylene or polypropylene), solvents can't do much to harm it. Want proof? Concentrated acids (H2SO4, etc.) are shipped in polyethylene bottles--just check at your local Ace Hardware store. These are low cost, light weight, high performance thermoplastics with a range of physical properties which can be altered to an amazing degree by the mixing in of additives (talc, glass beads, etc., which makes them tougher and further lowers the cost.) Probably the only reason we don't see polymer slides is that they don't take heat well (so far).


Well, Hauptmann, with very little research, it seems the plastic used to make the Glock (Polymer 2) was specially formulated to provide increased durability and is more resilient than carbon steel and most steel alloys. Polymer 2 is resistant to shock, caustic liquids and temperature extremes where traditional steel/alloy frames would warp and become brittle. I am somewhat askance of your question "what do they mean". It has been mentioned the polymer Glock uses is called "Zytel" which is a DuPont product; however, Glock maintains Gaston Glock produced "polymer 2" for the manufacturing of his pistols.

I'm not sure why we have not yet seen a polymer slide, but it seems to me if the frame is able to withstand the heat and pressure of shooting, a polymer slide would withstand the same. I don't know, but polymers are used in engines where heat goes to severe extremes, and as previously stated here, the polymer often holds up better than carbon steel/steel alloys. Perhaps the idea of a completely "plastic" gun just wasn't what Gaston Glock had in mind when he produced the Glock 17. What was it that spurred your curiosity?


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

GCBHM:


> I just don't summarily dismiss anything without at least some level of actual research and testing. I think that is stupid.


My father was obsessed with computers and the internet. At the time I could never understand why. My interests were always mechanical things not electronic gadgetry. Still is, and still not into gadgetry. Now I find that it is something we can't live without, not only do we earn a living using one but the internet is like having a vast resource of reference materials right at your fingertips. Let alone finding things that you could never have found otherwise. At one time I swore I'd never own a Glock or any other polymer frame gun for that matter. Until one day I said why not? I now have 6 polymer frame guns along with the others. Buying guns, like cars are always subject to personal preferences it's not for me to decide what someone else should own. Only to point out the merits or demerits of each based on personal experience and an unbiased view. I like all of the guns that I've bought otherwise I wouldn't have bought them. I really can't pick a favorite. I bought a 2500 HD Chevy truck, is it any better than Ford or Dodge? I don't know. They are all quality trucks and get the job done, it just so happens that I bought a Chevy.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> My father was obsessed with computers and the internet. At the time I could never understand why. My interests were always mechanical things not electronic gadgetry. Still is, and still not into gadgetry. Now I find that it is something we can't live without, not only do we earn a living using one but the internet is like having a vast resource of reference materials right at your fingertips. Let alone finding things that you could never have found otherwise. At one time I swore I'd never own a Glock or any other polymer frame gun for that matter. Until one day I said why not? I now have 6 polymer frame guns along with the others. Buying guns, like cars are always subject to personal preferences it's not for me to decide what someone else should own. Only to point out the merits or demerits of each based on personal experience and an unbiased view. I like all of the guns that I've bought otherwise I wouldn't have bought them. I really can't pick a favorite. I bought a 2500 HD Chevy truck, is it any better than Ford or Dodge? I don't know. They are all quality trucks and get the job done, it just so happens that I bought a Chevy.


I agree. Like you, my intent is to poitn out the merits. Like I said, if someone doesn't want to own a "plastic" pistol, I couldn't care less, but to just say shooting a plastic pistol is stupid...well, like Twain said. In the Navy we have a saying. If it is stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid. I wasn't a Glock fan at first, but I took an honest look at the pistol and realized it's actually a quality piece of work, and it out performs a lot of steel guns, as to all the polymer guns. I really don't care if someone doesn't want to own one. I really don't care if they say things like "plastic guns". It's no reflection on me, and like you said, it isn't for me to say what someone should own. Own what you want! But at least educate yourself on the facts instead of unqualified opinions.


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## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Well, Hauptmann, with very little research, it seems the plastic used to make the Glock (Polymer 2) was specially formulated to provide increased durability and is more resilient than carbon steel and most steel alloys. Polymer 2 is resistant to shock, caustic liquids and temperature extremes where traditional steel/alloy frames would warp and become brittle. I am somewhat askance of your question "what do they mean". It has been mentioned the polymer Glock uses is called "Zytel" which is a DuPont product; however, Glock maintains Gaston Glock produced "polymer 2" for the manufacturing of his pistols.
> 
> I'm not sure why we have not yet seen a polymer slide, but it seems to me if the frame is able to withstand the heat and pressure of shooting, a polymer slide would withstand the same. I don't know, but polymers are used in engines where heat goes to severe extremes, and as previously stated here, the polymer often holds up better than carbon steel/steel alloys. Perhaps the idea of a completely "plastic" gun just wasn't what Gaston Glock had in mind when he produced the Glock 17. What was it that spurred your curiosity?


The world of materials has always interested me, as has the advancement of materials science. I bought my first car in 1958 (a '50 Merc 2-dr post). All structural parts were metal. My '13 Ford Focus has so much plastic in it that there is no place to attach a magnetic "Hide a-Key". The new Boeing 787 is built largely of composites-Oh, God--Somebody better warn Tom R--he may want to stick to wooden biplanes. It's probably just a matter of time before "plastic" slides (with metal inserts) become commonplace.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Hauptmann said:


> The world of materials has always interested me, as has the advancement of materials science. I bought my first car in 1958 (a '50 Merc 2-dr post). All structural parts were metal. My '13 Ford Focus has so much plastic in it that there is no place to attach a magnetic "Hide a-Key". The new Boeing 787 is built largely of composites-Oh, God--Somebody better warn Tom R--he may want to stick to wooden biplanes. It's probably just a matter of time before "plastic" slides (with metal inserts) become commonplace.


LOL!!! Something tells me TomR may want to just stay home. I used to run a transmission shop, and I have seen the internal transmission parts transition to a lot of "plastic" parts and wondered how in the world they don't melt, but as we've seen, this new plastic often out performs steel and metal, and it is much cheaper to produce, so I guess it's the new age. Interesting though!


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## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

desertman said:


> Hauptmann:
> Interesting information regarding polymers!
> 
> I believe the FN "Five Seven" has a polymer clad slide and so does the Kel Tec "PMR 30" perhaps this could be the wave of the future? An all polymer slide? Maybe, but I doubt that the breech face could hold up to it unless it had a steel insert. As with most polymer frame guns the recoil spring absorbs most of the recoil along with the steel locking block that is incorporated into the frame. Someone made a 3-D printed gun entirely made out of plastic, I believe it was a .380. The barrel was about 2 inches thick, I think it blew up after a few rounds. But even if the barrel could hold up to the explosion a hot lead or jacketed bullet would most certainly melt the plastic as it travels down the barrel. I don't foresee a time when plastic or polymers will have a higher melting point than lead or copper. Might make a good choice for a gun that is extremely cheap and could only be used once, that is to save your life. Providing it just melts and doesn't explode.


Interesting!


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Haup, do you have any polymer frame guns? I have several, and have owned several over the years, but still love the steel pistols too. Currently, my only all steel guns is the CZ-75B, and it is an excellent pistol. Love it! But I carry a Glock 19 for EDC. It is much lighter, and has a smaller bore axis. Plus, it just works.


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## Hauptmann (Aug 2, 2014)

Hard to beat a Glock. I had a Kel Tec P3AT which I wasn't too thrilled with--had nothing to do with the polymer frame, however. I'm now trying to arrange delivery of my new Ruger LCP. I have my sights on the Glock 42, but I've decided to wait for the rumored 9mm version to be released. Shot many other Glocks, and they're great. Also I am really intrigued by the Kimber Solo .380 which is supposed to start shipping in October. If it ONLY had a polymer frame to knock that 13.4 oz. weight down to 9.5 or 10. Sigh!


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I have the 42, and love it! Perfect discreet carry gun. If Glock makes a single stack 9, I'll get it.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

If Glock made a crossbow you'd get it, lol.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

TAPnRACK said:


> If Glock made a crossbow you'd get it, lol.


They would probably make it out of plastic.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rustygun said:


> They would probably make it out of plastic.


Or polymer...


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> If Glock made a crossbow you'd get it, lol.


It would be difficult to conceal. Any ideas?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Not gonna go there, lol.

No comment.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm thinking I'll need a hood.


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