# Is caliber size a real factor



## rseasy1 (Sep 14, 2010)

I've read here and on other forums about the knock down power of the 9mm being insufficient.
I don't know much of anything about this subject but I would think in a shooting situation god forbid it would ever be necessary. That one or two good placed rounds from a 22 or any bullet size would put a fast end to a terrible situation. I have never starred down the barrel of a gun before but would imagine that even a 22 at a close range would appear to be the size of a cannon and strike a mental fear into an assailant. And being shoot with one no matter ware it struck is going to inflict both a mental and physical shock. Law enforcement need the larger calibers for the dope crazed idiots they might need to subdue and put them down before they them self get put down. I keep a 22 hanging from my bed post a fully loaded a revolver because I think they are the most reliable as far as a sure sure fire weapon. Should I put my 22 Revolver in the safe and hang my .40 cal. sig on my bed post?
Would a 22 shot into the arm just be a sting? or a real show stopper.
Or should I hang my 40 which would most likely remove half the arm?


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## timbo813 (Aug 24, 2010)

Most experts recommend using at least 9mm or 38 special with good hollowpoint ammo. Of your choices, the 40 would be much better than the 22. Sig generally makes good stuff but you should shoot some rounds through it to verify that it works reliably. (It's fun and good practice too.)


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## SigZagger (Aug 16, 2006)

Depending on the number of responses to your question will probably determine the number of "so-called" correct answers. Like yourself I am no bullet caliber expert. Lets face it, one can be stabbed with a pen knife and die from the wound if placed in a vital area. So, a .22 would kill a human depending on shot placement. However, as we all know the police deal with life threatening situation everyday. There training dictates shot placement in center mass, along with a 'stoppable' caliber round. The .38 special and .357 magnum was the bullet of choice not too long ago. Then the 9mm and .45 caliber. Today, many PD's carry the .40 caliber. I must assume their research has shown what works best. Having said all that, IMO, I'd shoot your .22 for practice and fun (bulk ammo is cheap) and keep the .40 caliber for HD or CC. With your two choices, bigger is better.


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## MitchellB (Aug 14, 2010)

While a .22 will put a hole in someone and cause them to bleed and with proper shot placement kill instantly, a .40SW will create more flesh damage, deeper penetration and with a more forceful shock to the body. Most experts consider the 9mm or .38 special rounds to be the minimum size that should be used for self-defense. The best analogy I can think of is you have two runaway vehicles, a loaded dump truck and a VW Bug coming down a mountain road, both doing approximately the same speed of 55 mph. Which will be the easiest to stop? Which will do the most damage? The same laws of physics work with bullets size and weights as well. 

In a self defense situation your goal is to stop the threat before it can kill you or someone else. This usually happens so fast you often do not have time to take well aimed shots, you are so nervous you can’t shoot straight and/or you are being shot at; stabbed at or otherwise dodging your assailant. You DO NOT want to try to shoot the weapon out of there hand like the Lone Ranger or shoot to wound them in the arm thinking this will save lives. In a life or death situation you should aim or point your gun to center of mass and keep pulling the trigger until the threat stops. Another defense formula I’ve heard of that some practiced is to shoot stomach, chest and then neck/face if a third round is necessary. But usually 2 rounds to center of mass is the standard preached by most instructors I think. Just look at the printed human targets available at a gun range and you’ll get the idea of proper shot placement. Shooting to wound is a very bad idea, best left to experts or movie cowboys.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but just about everything you said in your quote is incorrect. That's not a reflection on you, just that it seems you've gotten your information from the wrong sources.
I'll block and quote to make it easier...



rseasy1 said:


> I've read here and on other forums about the knock down power of the 9mm being insufficient.


Knockdown power is a myth. The physics make it a fallacy. If a bullet could knock down an assailant, then it would knock you over when you fire it. Simple physics. Throw "knockdown power" as far away from your vocabulary as possible please. The 9mm is completely sufficient, WITH good shot placement.


> I don't know much of anything about this subject but I would think in a shooting situation god forbid it would ever be necessary. That one or two good placed rounds from a 22 or any bullet size would put a fast end to a terrible situation.


As the old saying goes... you don't know, what you don't know. People have been shot up with 10 to 12 or more rounds and still maintain their footing and ability to fight. It has more to do with weather the bullet struck the CNS (Central Nervous System) or not. A strike to the CNS will _most likely_ incapacitate a person simply because it removes the ability for their brain to transmit electrical impulses to the rest of the body. Even if you hit someone in a critical organ, say the heart, a person can maintain functionality for 2 to 3 minutes without blood being pumped to the brain. Now, this of course depends on their "will to fight". Many things come into play (so I hear from some certified professionals). If the sound and thought of being shot is a mental block for them, then they'll either retreat or fall or just mentally shut down (from the fighting). If they're really determined to kill you or hurt you, it'll take a significant blood loss before their body can no longer work. (Think "oil pressure").


> I have never starred down the barrel of a gun before but would imagine that even a 22 at a close range would appear to be the size of a cannon and strike a mental fear into an assailant. And being shoot with one no matter ware it struck is going to inflict both a mental and physical shock.


I had to draw my weapon on a guy years back. He was in such a rage, he didn't even SEE the gun until I brought it up to eye level and told him to stop or I would shoot him. Mad people often end up with tunnel vision (so did I during the situation to be honest).


> Law enforcement need the larger calibers for the dope crazed idiots they might need to subdue and put them down before they them self get put down. I keep a 22 hanging from my bed post a fully loaded a revolver because I think they are the most reliable as far as a sure sure fire weapon. Should I put my 22 Revolver in the safe and hang my .40 cal. sig on my bed post?
> Would a 22 shot into the arm just be a sting? or a real show stopper.
> Or should I hang my 40 which would most likely remove half the arm?


Personally, I'd recommend keeping whatever you shoot the best for self defense. Why? Because you're going to be amped up more than you've ever been in a situation where you have to even _think_ you're gonna need your gun. Your body will default to it's highest current level of training. If that training is shooting pop cans with your buds once in a while on the weekends, then you're going to be at a serious disadvantage. If you've got some meaningful trigger time doing shooting drills AND RELOADS, then you'll be better off.

In closing, caliber is and will be a much debated point. Two things that is NOT in question is what stops a person from aggressive movement towards you. The first is a CNS shot Those areas are small and not easy to hit while shaking like a leaf in the wind, but it will most likely stop a fight regardless of caliber. The second is blood loss. If the person bleeds out enough, they won't have enough blood pressure to continue to fight. It's not like Hollywierd. It takes a person a long time to bleed out. That being said, bigger holes mean bigger blood loss, and multiple bigger holes makes it even faster.

ETA: Typed this at the same time as MitchellB


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

People who know and love guns argue about the effectiveness of the various cartridge sizes continuously. Everyone has their own preferences and prejudices, and everyone thinks their reasons are more logical than the person they are arguing with.

The best benchmark for determining adequate self defense chamberings, for all sorts of attack, is generally considered to be the FBI ballistic gel tests, and of course, that is also argued. But, generally speaking, it is the benchmark most folks go by, simply because there isn't a better one, and we all tend to want to be able to quantify everything. Most folks will look at them and say that 9mm (Luger) and above, to include .38 Special (with certain loads), .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP are the best choices.

The standard I pay most attention to is what paramedics and doctors say, who see bullet wounds on a regular basis. My take on that is that they cannot tell much difference in the mortal wounds caused by hollow point ammo fired from a 9mm, 40 S&W, or .45 ACP. I believe that, but I still carry a .45 most of the time. :mrgreen:


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## rseasy1 (Sep 14, 2010)

*all good info on this topic*

Thanks guys I think I got my question answered,I can shoot the 22 sig pretty proficiently rather taking aim or point shooting, And I have hit the heads on land scapeing nails with my 40 cal. Sig.
What I understand about knock down power was the ability of a bullet to put something down from the shock applied being a man or animal! Given a well placed shot ,I guess the myth of knock down power comes from those with biased opinions people who say a 22 won"t work just cause they don"t care for a 22. Perhaps they are just .45 caliber fans. Like the old saying goes bigger is better.
On the other hand one should consider also what they can handle the best. My next gun purchase is going to be a 9MM. And will practice alot with it as that is what I want as my bed hanger.The 22 sig
is a reliable gun with the correct ammo not going to trust my life with the cheap bulk ammo.

This is what I like about these forums ! Different opinion from those that know more than I do or just pick up good useful info thanks everyone.
In the mean time think I'll pickup a box a hollow points for the .40 cal .....And hang it from the bed .


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## Hstead (Aug 19, 2010)

I am by no means an expert, but when it comes to "knock down" power, there is definitely a difference between calibers, especially the .22LR. Take a look on youtube and search for videos of either bear, boar, or any other large game being shot. If you shoot a bear with a .22LR, it better be through the ear, because anywhere in the body is just going to piss it off. If you shoot a bear with a .45, it is at least going to knock it down usually, but the .22Lr is not even going to make him flinch.


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## rseasy1 (Sep 14, 2010)

*Good point*



Hstead said:


> I am by no means an expert, but when it comes to "knock down" power, there is definitely a difference between calibers, especially the .22LR. Take a look on youtube and search for videos of either bear, boar, or any other large game being shot. If you shoot a bear with a .22LR, it better be through the ear, because anywhere in the body is just going to piss it off. If you shoot a bear with a .45, it is at least going to knock it down usually, but the .22Lr is not even going to make him flinch.


I would think a man would be much easier to stop than a bear but your point is well taken and correct.
For now I'll keep my .40 sig with quality hollow points handy and am going to start shopping for a nice 
9MM.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

rseasy1 said:


> Thanks guys I think I got my question answered,I can shoot the 22 sig pretty proficiently rather taking aim or point shooting, And I have hit the heads on land scapeing nails with my 40 cal. Sig.


Keep in mind that doing something on a square range is far different than doing it while under duress. Your hands will be shaking, your mind will be racing, your heart will be pounding and that's not even including the physical interaction with the bad guy and the weapons system.



> What I understand about knock down power was the ability of a bullet to put something down from the shock applied being a man or animal! Given a well placed shot ,I guess the myth of knock down power comes from those with biased opinions people who say a 22 won"t work just cause they don"t care for a 22. Perhaps they are just .45 caliber fans. Like the old saying goes bigger is better.


Knockdown power isn't real. Want some expert opinions on the matter? Google DocGKR. He works in the ballistics field and is recognized as an expert on the matter on many forums. (m4carbine.net for one if you're interested). Hydrostatic shock has been debunked time and time again for pistol caliber rounds. They simply do not have the velocity to make it happen. Now a rifle round is far different, but it's still not "hydrostatic shock", it's wound channel. As for if I'm biased on caliber... you bet I am. Given a choice, I'd rather have a larger caliber than a smaller one, BUT that's only because I train all the time and know that I can put rounds where I want them to go even under stress. I shoot .22's all the time, in fact, they have some really good training benefits. You flinch with a .22, you can "feel" it when the shot breaks. Not so much with a larger caliber. .22's are a great training gun/plinking gun, but I'd rather have a 9mm or better for defensive situations.


> On the other hand one should consider also what they can handle the best. My next gun purchase is going to be a 9MM. And will practice alot with it as that is what I want as my bed hanger.The 22 sig
> is a reliable gun with the correct ammo not going to trust my life with the cheap bulk ammo.


I agree that the gun you shoot the best is probably the best to use in a defensive situation.


> This is what I like about these forums ! Different opinion from those that know more than I do or just pick up good useful info thanks everyone.
> In the mean time think I'll pickup a box a hollow points for the .40 cal .....And hang it from the bed .


You really should read up on DocGKR. He's a veritable wealth of knowledge on the subject. There's a sub forum on m4carbine.net dedicated to Terminal Ballistics and some very interesting threads on shooting myths. Worth the read.

Shoot safe.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Hstead said:


> If you shoot a bear with a .45, it is at least going to knock it down usually, but the .22Lr is not even going to make him flinch.


It is against the laws of physics to believe that a .45, or any other pistol or rifle cartridge can 'knock down' a large animal, or a human for that matter. A perfect shot that disconnects the brain from the rest of the body may cause it to drop, in place, but that has little to do with bullet size. A shot into the heart or major arteries may cause such a sudden and dramatic loss of blood pressure that he will immediately faint, and then bleed out without regaining consciousness, but again, it requires a well placed shot.

A larger bullet and a more forceful impact may allow you to do that kind of damage with a shot that is merely very close, whereas something smaller might have to be a perfect strike, and that is a definite plus. But the main advantage of a bigger gun is that it has more ability to shock the central nervous system, even when a shot is not made to a fatal location. Broken bones and lacerated muscles can cause debilitating pain that may abruptly end an attack, and large guns are better at accomplishing this than small guns.


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

I usually say to this argument let us go out back and at ten paces I will have my .22 and you can choose whatever you want with the catch that I can go first. Most people do not take that offer and for good reason. Shot placement is far better than any kind of large portion of lead in whatever configuration you want.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

snowman46919 said:


> I usually say to this argument let us go out back and at ten paces I will have my .22 and you can choose whatever you want with the catch that I can go first. Most people do not take that offer and for good reason. Shot placement is far better than any kind of large portion of lead in whatever configuration you want.


Haha... why would anyone take you up on that? You get to go first? Now, if it was just an on the draw sort of deal (which would be far more realistic in relation to defensive shooting, just make sure you never say that to a person who can shoot just as well if not better than you can with a larger caliber. :mrgreen:

Not trying to be argumentative, but it seems as though people are relating punching holes in paper with the almighty .22 to combative shooting/defensive shooting. The premise of the thread was *gag* "knockdown power* or as I'd call it... incapacitation factor. There's a serious contrast between being accurate, and surviving a gun fight/defensive shooting. If the goal was to punch out the X on a piece of paper, sure, give me a .22, if the goal is to punch some asshats ticket who's trying to kill me... I'll take a 9mm or bigger every day.

I think this thread is moving in two different directions. One being the caliber war diatribe and the other being shot placement. Both are very valid points, but if you put both together, they're far more effective. That only comes with training and actual trigger time.

Me, I can put rounds in a combat effective area with decent speed...
Glock .357Sig at 7 yards. El Presidente. 7.82 seconds Missed one round out of 6 on last target so adding one second to 8.82.



Glock .357Sig at 6-ish yards (kept creeping up on it as the day went on by accident) First run 1.82seconds 4 shots, 4 hits, second run 1.80seconds 4 shots, 4 hits.



Not much slower with a .45ACP


Mind doing that with a .22 on the clock? That way no one has to get shot to prove a hypothetical point. :mrgreen:


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

My point is if I shoot you right between the eyes with a .22 and with a smith and wes 500 I am pretty srue your dead either way. If you break into my house and get past the dog then I am going to shoot you with whatever I get to first. If I am going for self defense in an open area 9 times out of 10 I am going to be with my family and I am still going to put it right between your eyes before you ever get a chance to get close to me or my family. No matter the caliber at the end of the day it has to be whatever you can comfortably shoot to protect yourself and if you go for bigger caliber to compensate for something maybe you shouldn't have a gun in the first place.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

You can't really intend that last remark for they guy who just posted those pics because that is some very good shooting right there. 

It does have to be what you are the most cofortable with but to believe in a situation you or your family is danger you will put one "right between the eyes" ............thats real good shooting.

I shoot a lot and I practice going from my holster to the target, shoot 2 very quickly, getting my gun and aquiring the target. I do it a lot. I probably shoot 200 to 250 rounds every week in the summer and only a hundred or so in the winter and I am not sure, I could under stress hit anyone in between the eyes. Heck when adrenaline is pumping it is hard to find the sites at times.

I am not compensating I have a grip on reality, I should have a gun in the first place!

RCG


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

I was a bit off in saying i am going to put one between your eyes that's unrealistic, i would empty the entire clip and chamber in the body mask until you stopped coming at me thank you for pointing that out. And fast shooting at close range to a steel target although quite impressive doesn't cut it, you can't really imitate a real life situation with targets because god knows what someone is going to do especially if they are desperate enough to come after you. For that matter while I am at it what drugs they may be hopped up on.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

snowman46919 said:


> ... If I am going for self defense in an open area 9 times out of 10 I am going to be with my family and I am still going to put it right between your eyes before you ever get a chance to get close to me or my family. No matter the caliber at the end of the day it has to be whatever you can comfortably shoot to protect yourself and if you go for bigger caliber to compensate for something maybe you shouldn't have a gun in the first place.


It is ridiculous to think that anyone but maybe a stone-cold sociopath would be able to state categorically how well he will perform under extreme duress. Very experienced shooters fail to execute, quite often, under extreme stress.

Do yourself a favor and use the .22 to hone your marksmanship skills. Then get something bigger to protect your family with, and learn how to 'comfortably shoot' it.... like in the videos, above.


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

Bisley said:


> It is ridiculous to think that anyone but maybe a stone-cold sociopath would be able to state categorically how well he will perform under extreme duress. Very experienced shooters fail to execute, quite often, under extreme stress.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and use the .22 to hone your marksmanship skills. Then get something bigger to protect your family with, and learn how to 'comfortably shoot' it.... like in the videos, above.


If it comes to home defense I am grabbing the shotgun anyway, I don't currently carry anywhere but on the farm anyway because of how impossible my county has made it to get a permit. At any rate the OP asked what he should do keep his 22 revolver out or use his .40 sig and I say whichever he is more comfortable shooting because in the heat of the moment he is going to run on adrenaline and instinct and if he can shoot the 22 revolver without fail under pressure thats what I would go to.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

snowman46919 said:


> I was a bit off in saying i am going to put one between your eyes that's unrealistic, i would empty the entire clip and chamber in the body mask until you stopped coming at me thank you for pointing that out. And fast shooting at close range to a steel target although quite impressive doesn't cut it, you can't really imitate a real life situation with targets because god knows what someone is going to do especially if they are desperate enough to come after you. For that matter while I am at it what drugs they may be hopped up on.


Good God.... then how else do you imitate a real life situation? Just go out and shoot people? Be mindful, if you say paintball my head will explode!  Unless you have access to some high dollar facilities, there are very few places where you can put yourself under stress and shoot live ammo. I've found one in the past, but it is no longer in operation. It was in SLC and it basically had a white sheet that played video of different scenarios and tracked your shots via a laser intersect system, so believe me when I say that I've done the closest thing to doing it for real aside from FoF training.

As far as "fast shooting at close range" goes... you do realize that 7 yards (21 feet) is widely known as the maximum distance that you "should" shoot someone at given a life threatening situation right? Of course you did. If you shoot someone outside that (approximate) range, a lawyer will have you for lunch if all your P's and Q's aren't in order.

I've had my pistol trained on a live, walking talking human being before and I can tell you that the precision you _think_ you'll have goes right out the damn window. Your adrenaline is pumping like an oil well and your hands WILL shake, so you go right on believing that you'll hit them right between the eyes or even in the chest for that matter.

People train to shoot at close distances for a reason. Because that's where most defensive shootings occur. Like I said earlier, it's far different than punching out the X's on a target... it's combative shooting. I've watched seasoned shooters fumble their gun or miss a target simply with the added effect of someone yelling in their ear after the timer goes off. If something as minute as someone yelling at you can make seasoned shooters fail, what is going to happen when the excrement hits the oscillator? I train repetitive drills so that my body will remember what to do when my mind starts racing.

Besides, I'd be happy for you to prove me wrong if you can. :roll:


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

snowman46919 said:


> If it comes to home defense I am grabbing the shotgun anyway, I don't currently carry anywhere but on the farm anyway because of how impossible my county has made it to get a permit.


So wait a minute... you don't even carry a gun? Why the hell am I even debating with you? I've carried a gun for 16+ years, every day. You have no frame of reference for your spouting.

As for the .22 Revolver.. especially for a new shooter... that limits them to 6 or 7 shots depending on the revolver, whereas an Auto in .40 will give them far more opportunities to put a hole in what needs a hole in it. He should learn to shoot the .40 better.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

If you can shoot the El Presidante in 7.82 seconds, I would want that guy on my side in a gun fight. It maybe doesn't recreate a drug crazed douche bag attaching you but it says you can draw you weapon, aquire your target. pull the trigger 6 times changing the point of aim 3 times, twice and do it in less then 8 seconds. 

Close up steel shooting only looks easy because that guy is good at it. 

Do you need a permit to have a handgun in your home? 

It is pretty smart to grab a shotgun rather then a .22 but a .22 is better then nothing.

I didn't think you did carry much it was pretty obvious.

It is hard too know what you would do until you have to do it, and if you don't even carry you probably will only be able to guess what you will or would do. 

Good luck and I hope your county makes it easier to carry soon!!!

RCG


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

zhurdan said:


> Good God.... then how else do you imitate a real life situation?


I was simply stating that there is no way to truly imitate a real life situation.



zhurdan said:


> So wait a minute... you don't even carry a gun? Why the hell am I even debating with you? I've carried a gun for 16+ years, every day. You have no frame of reference for your spouting.


I have carried every day on the farm since I was little. Gpa started me on a 45 to scare the crap out of me when I was just barely out of diapers. Also my place of employment would probably have me promptly escorted off the premise if not arrested if I carried daily so sorry if we don't all follow a career path which allows us to carry everyday.

sorry that sounds as if I carried a hand gun as a child which isn't the case.. I started on a rifle as a child and as I got older I moved on. Personally, I carry a 22 because I can't afford anything else right now, tied with the fact that I can't afford to take a day off work to go get my permit.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Dude I looked close and it looks like you are cheating and using a laser............I new it.

just giving you a bad time but I thought it was funny!

RCG


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Nice Recoil... nice!! You probably know how I feel about lasers!!! hehe

You did see that all three were videos right? The first one just looks different than the other photobucket ones.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

snowman46919 said:


> I was simply stating that there is no way to truly imitate a real life situation.


There are ways, but it's expensive. I went to a Magpul Dynamics Carbine/pistol class this last spring, and let me tell you, they CAN put you under stress, and they do... on purpose! They're great instructors, but expensive.


> sorry that sounds as if I carried a hand gun as a child which isn't the case.. I started on a rifle as a child and as I got older I moved on. Personally, I carry a 22 because I can't afford anything else right now, tied with the fact that I can't afford to take a day off work to go get my permit.


That sucks, but that's not what kinda... _kinda_ set me off. It was this little gem..


> and if you go for bigger caliber to compensate for something maybe you shouldn't have a gun in the first place.


Often times, people who say stuff like that revert to 3rd grade tactics because they can't compete at the same level of skill as who they are trying to bash. Not saying you're one of those people thru and thru, but it sure started to seem like it.

Shoot safe.


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

zhurdan said:


> Often times, people who say stuff like that revert to 3rd grade tactics because they can't compete at the same level of skill as who they are trying to bash. Not saying you're one of those people thru and thru, but it sure started to seem like it.
> 
> Shoot safe.


Sorry, that wasn't really directed towards anyone here but on a daily basis I deal with a guy that insists the only way to protect yourself is with a smith and wes 500 which he also hunts (read cheats at hunting) deer with. I am not saying that a 357 sig .40 or .45 is over compensating either, but I know a fair amount of people that will go out and buy say a .45 as an ego thing not because they are comfortable shooting it. Or people that buy 1911's as a scare tactic, I deal with a lot of people like this in my area recently. My concern for the OP was that it seems he is not necessarily comfortable with his sig .40 in the first place and add confusion, nerves, and adrenaline that is not a good mix. I would hate to say oh use the .40 you have more chances to put a hole in something. The key word in that sentence is something, if he is uncomfortable or unpracticed with it under calm circumstances that something could be himself in a situation where someone just broke down his door at three in the morning.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

zhurdan said:


> Nice Recoil... nice!! You probably know how I feel about lasers!!! hehe
> 
> You did see that all three were videos right? The first one just looks different than the other photobucket ones.


Yeah I do know how you feel..... I am not on the same page on that subject and we have bantered about it.

I did see the videos.....Nicely done. If shooting was as easy as good shooters make it look there would be no need to practice. I practice a lot because I make shooting good look as hard as it really is.........

Nicely done on all 3 of the Vids

RCG


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Lasers Shmazers!! hehe

I'll never figure photobucket out. One video looks different when you post it than the others, so sometimes people think it's just a picture.

Thanks for the compliment. I've been shooting for just about as long as some people have been alive... that helps. Plus, I've gotten some really good instruction from some really great people over the years. I've still got a long way to go to even come close to people like Travis Haley or Chris Costa (Magpul Instructors) or Todd Jarrett (shooting masta).


To the OP... if it's a possibility, I'd STRONGLY recommend going to a defensive shooting class or weapons manipulation class. They're expensive, but they're worth every penny and they're a whole hell of a lot of fun! Take the wife/girlfriend and make 'em take pictures. I did, and she loved it (not really, but I did promise her sand and sun. Unfortunately, it was in Pueblo Colorado, hot as hell, and the sand was blowing at about 40 mph!)


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

*.22 rimfires can work just fine*

As for using .22 rimfires on perps, here is the proper procedure.

1. Place the first round on the bridge of the nose, exactly between the eyes.
2. The bullet will not penetrate, but will be deflected to either the left OR the right eye.
3. Carefully place the second shot into the OTHER eye. The one that did NOT receive the "owie".
4. While the perp is bent over saying things like "Damn, DAMN, that SMARTS" walk up to him.
5. Use the butt end of the .22 rimfire to smash the back of his skull. Perp problem solved.

Folks, that is a JOKE. However, it has a minor bit of rationale involved. :mrgreen:


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

zhurdan said:


> Unless you have access to some high dollar facilities, there are very few places where you can put yourself under stress and shoot live ammo. I've found one in the past, but it is no longer in operation. It was in SLC and it basically had a white sheet that played video of different scenarios and tracked your shots via a laser intersect system, so believe me when I say that I've done the closest thing to doing it for real aside from FoF training.


The military uses those for their FATS training, it's pretty nifty. :smt023 I got to practice shoot/no shoot scenarios, against attackers using various kinds of weapons once during a visit to Wright-Patt AFB. I wouldn't say it simulates stress very well, but it does hone judgement a bit.

KG


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## rseasy1 (Sep 14, 2010)

*9 MM still on my list*

Well I think I will purchase a 9MM to keep as my main HD weapon and become good enough to place my shots into a tight group I can do that with my .40 cal. now and do pretty quickly I think what I learned here that 
a 9MM is small enough to control and large enough to be more than sufficient.
Also mass center shots are more sure fire thing! than trying to bounce .22's off someones nose to get em in the eye ( Just joking I liked that one)


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## Couch Potato (Jun 3, 2010)

zhurdan said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but just about everything you said in your quote is incorrect. That's not a reflection on you, just that it seems you've gotten your information from the wrong sources.
> I'll block and quote to make it easier...
> 
> Knockdown power is a myth. *The physics make it a fallacy. If a bullet could knock down an assailant, then it would knock you over when you fire it. * Simple physics. Throw "knockdown power" as far away from your vocabulary as possible please. The 9mm is completely sufficient, WITH good shot placement.


This statement is incorrect. I know it is popular, and often repeated, but it is a misapplication of physics. While the force of the bullet does have equivalent opposing force, that opposing force need not be a single force directly to the rear. Multiple forces to the side could add together to equal the force of the bullet. If those side forces are semetrical, the shooter would feel no force at all yet the bullet could knock someone over. Yes, I am oversimplifying in the opposite direction to make the point, but it is valid none the less.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Couch Potato said:


> This statement is incorrect. I know it is popular, and often repeated, but it is a misapplication of physics. While the force of the bullet does have equivalent opposing force, that opposing force need not be a single force directly to the rear. Multiple forces to the side could add together to equal the force of the bullet. If those side forces are semetrical, the shooter would feel no force at all yet the bullet could knock someone over. Yes, I am oversimplifying in the opposite direction to make the point, but it is valid none the less.


Misapplication in angular physics but not in relation to guns. There are no opposing forces to the sides other than that against the chamber walls and the breach which is what forces the bullet down the barrel. The energy has to go somewhere. In the case of guns the amount of ft-lbs at the muzzle minus any recoil absorbed by the weapons action is the amount of energy felt by the shooter.

Not to mention, the outward forces DO happen from time to time... they're called KaBOOMS.


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## 8Eric6 (May 9, 2010)

between the .22 and the .40 cal I would go .40 but, I would take my shotgun before either


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## Couch Potato (Jun 3, 2010)

zhurdan said:


> Misapplication in angular physics but not in relation to guns. There are no opposing forces to the sides other than that against the chamber walls and the breach which is what forces the bullet down the barrel. The energy has to go somewhere. In the case of guns the amount of ft-lbs at the muzzle minus any recoil absorbed by the weapons action is the amount of energy felt by the shooter.
> 
> Not to mention, the outward forces DO happen from time to time... they're called KaBOOMS.


The outward forces exceeding the ability of the gun to absorb them results in KaBOOMS, but the outward forces are always present when a gun is fired. If energy was not absorbed by the gun, it would not become hot when fired. It is not a simple bullet goes forward, gun goes backward equation to evaluate the energy of firing a handgun.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Makes sense, but what are the numbers, in general terms?

I'm betting that at least 75% of the 'equal and opposite reaction' still goes to the rear, in the form of recoil.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Bisley said:


> Makes sense, but what are the numbers, in general terms?
> 
> I'm betting that at least 75% of the 'equal and opposite reaction' still goes to the rear, in the form of recoil.


Pretty much what I was getting at Bisley.

Couch... IN RELATION TO FIREARMS... there is no way to redirect enough energy sideways, longways, upways, downways or diagonalways to completely negate felt recoil. The Kriss does do some energy vectoring with its recoil system, the .50 cal rifles have baffles and breaks that _reduce_ recoil, but it is still there. I think you're over complicating it on purpose for the sake of argument.


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## Couch Potato (Jun 3, 2010)

Certainly a good portion of the the force goes into the hand of the shooter, and I am not defending the concept of "knock down" power. Hit an off balance person high with a .22cal., and they might be knocked down. Hit a large man running toward you in the gut with a .50 cal., and they might keep coming. The number of variables is enormous. The speed of the bullet is a more important factor than its mass, but obviously the size of the bullet makes a difference.

I would argue the choice of firearm and the ammunition with which it is loaded is the least important factor in a self defense situation beyond them being functional. Personal preparation in the form of practice and decision making is far more important. Bullets that miss an attacker have the same effect on the attacker regardless of caliber (though the effect on the surroundings can vary greatly.)


zhurdan said:


> Pretty much what I was getting at Bisley.
> 
> Couch... IN RELATION TO FIREARMS... there is no way to redirect enough energy sideways, longways, upways, downways or diagonalways to completely negate felt recoil. The Kriss does do some energy vectoring with its recoil system, the .50 cal rifles have baffles and breaks that _reduce_ recoil, but it is still there. * I think you're over complicating it on purpose for the sake of argument.*


It is not so much just for the sake of argument (although anyone who knows me knows I love to argue) as it is being annoyed by trite saying you quoted. It is an erroneous statement, that detracts from your otherwise fine post on the subject.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

Couch Potato said:


> . . .The number of variables is enormous. The speed of the bullet is a more important factor than its mass, but obviously the size of the bullet makes a difference . ..


1. K.E. (Kinetic Energy) = 1/2 Mass times Velocity Squared.
2. Any caliber is a sufficent self-defense weapon as long as its number begins with a ".4".
3. The "caliber" of a bullet is its diameter. But, its area = Pi times radius squared.

Careful examination of the above statements will result in endless discussions
generating untold amounts of creative justifications for one's personal biases. :mrgreen:

:duel:


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## rseasy1 (Sep 14, 2010)

*simple question*



DanP_from_AZ said:


> 1. K.E. (Kinetic Energy) = 1/2 Mass times Velocity Squared.
> 2. Any caliber is a sufficent self-defense weapon as long as its number begins with a ".4".
> 3. The "caliber" of a bullet is its diameter. But, its area = Pi times radius squared.
> 
> ...


So stick with my .40 cal.???
I graduated the 12th grade but never knew any science be hind bullets and guns to me it's kinda like driving a car gas and brake don't really need to know how it works .
I am a mechanic by trade working mainly on Cummings and Detroit diesel and was asked once by a guy what the temp was in the cylinder at the time of combustion when replied I don't know I was accused of being stupid and not knowing my job but I'm paid very well for being stupid and not knowing my job. I still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a bullet even by someone who has no clue like myself about the science behind it .all this is way over my head I'll point and shoot!
And the end result hopefully would be in my corner.
No pun intended towards anyone here .


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## snowman46919 (Dec 16, 2009)

DanP_from_AZ said:


> 5. Use the butt end of the .22 rimfire to smash the back of his skull. Perp problem solved.
> 
> Folks, that is a JOKE. However, it has a minor bit of rationale involved. :mrgreen:


Sorry have to do it, but as much of a joke as this is I do believe the upper receiver/barrel of my mkII would almost have the force of an 8 lb sledge hammer. On further review it looks like it only comes in at 2.87 pounds and some change but considering 2.5 or so is in the receiver and for its size that dense of an object would do some potential damage.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

rseasy1 said:


> So stick with my .40 cal.???


Yeah, load it with premium quality JHP ammo and hit where you aim and you will be ahead of most folks.:mrgreen:


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

rseasy1 said:


> . . . I am a mechanic by trade working mainly on Cummings and Detroit diesel and was asked once by a guy what the temp was in the cylinder at the time of combustion when replied I don't know I was accused of being stupid and not knowing my job but I'm paid very well for being stupid and not knowing my job . . .


So, "that guy" was an idiot, in my humble opinion.

I'm a retired mechanical engineer. 
And I used some of "that scientific method problem solving" college education for 31 years.
But, I worked summers on a 65,000 acre cattle ranch while in high school and college.
A real job. THAT was the real world side of my education. And, I NEVER forgot it.

NEVER underestimate the practical problem solving capability of the man with a wrench and experience.
And who knows how to use it for real world benefit. :smt1099


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

Great last point DanP. Regarding the greater debate at hand big +1 zhurdan and Bisley.

In a handgun platform I think comparing 9mm and up is apples to apples and .22 to 9mm and up is apples and oranges. A .22 can kill certainly but how quickly and will anything but blind luck result in an instantaneous stop. A stop is dead, too physically messed up to continue or I lost my mental mojo to continue. The objective of a justified self defense shoot and dare I say most combat encounters in most instances isn't to kill but rather to stop. Death and destruction may indeed be the final result but is not the ultimate objective.

Knockdown outside of Barrett 50 cals and up is largely a myth. Put them down not knock them down. Putting them down is about application of will followed by execution of proper shot or strike placement, volume of same and power in that order. Wild card also already mentioned is size of the fight in the dog rather than the size of the dog in the fight. Huge factor. DocGKR as Zhur mentioned has written some incredible stuff on the whole subject of temperament, ballistics and placement based on his real world forensic experience. Lets just say reality is stranger than fiction.

All this to say there are so many wild cards at play in any given scenario no one can say with 100% certainty what will or will not happen. Flesh wounds can kill and many a man has walked away mortally wounded to fight again another day. So what do we make of it all? What the credible experts have always told us. Carry the largest caliber and capacity you can handle at an "expert" level making fast accurate shots and keep going until the threat stops. Tried and true shoot em to the ground philosophy. Only time it doesn't work is when the other guy is using the same philosophy and out executes you.

I'm a nine is fine guy not because it is the best but because I can use it the best. Frankly all handgun chamberings suck compared to rifle calibers and velocities so we are faced with a compromise based on what we can tote around all day and handle effectively. What will give us the individual the best odds in a fight or die scenario. My first shot with anything providing I am familiar with the platform should be the same. Shot #2 and so on is what I consider because since all handgun cartridges suck as I put it I know I should not count on a one shot stop. Follow up times and shot to shot recover is why I like the 9 and thus it is my compromise choice.


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