# Best shotgun setup for camping defense



## fivehourfrenzy

I'm so excited...me and one of my best buddies and puppy are gonna spend our spring break camping in the Gorge. Unfortunately, none of the hunting seasons will be open during that time, other than a few furbearers, wild hogs, and coyotes, none of which I have any desire to hunt. However, with backcountry camping, there's always a risk of an animal attack. I've camped there several times and never saw any animal that could possibly injure/kill me, but there are a few could-be-dangerous animals residing in Daniel Boone Forest. Black bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, elk, bobcat, etc. have all been spotted/reported in the area. As with any responsible camping, you don't want to go impeding on territory already claimed by any of these animals, but an attack is always possible, especially when you have a dog on hand that will most definitely bark at anything that moves.

I've heard that in larger animals, especially bears, slugs are preferred to buckshot in that they penetrate more and are more effective in deterring an attack. I've also heard that hikers/campers/hunters will typically load their shotguns with two 3" loads of 00-000 buckshot, followed by 1 oz. slugs for the rest of the magazine...the thought being that the buckshot can be used to cripple a large animal, or at least slow it down, then the slugs can be used to kill it. While I'm not really apprehensive about being attacked by anything, we will be camping pretty far off trail (at least a mile in), and it wouldn't be a bad idea to prepare for the worst. I will of course have my P99 on hand, but handguns don't cut it against most animals (unless they're mice, haha). Any thoughts/advice?


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## PanaDP

I don't really have advice, but I thought I would mention something. This _is_ a place where you are allowed firearms, right?

Have fun.:smt1099


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## Mike Barham

Ah, the obligatory wildlife defense thread! Spring is in the air! As with most things on the Disinformation Cowpath, the threat is blown completely out of proportion by people who just want an excuse to carry their guns around.

Black bears very, very seldom pose any kind of threat to humans. Bear attacks in general are far more common on the internet than they are in real life, and almost invariably involve the big browns.

Coyote attacks are practically unheard of - they're just mangy little 40-pound dogs who usually spook at their own shadows. Wolves are so rare that you'd be lucky to even see one, never mind be attacked by a wolfpack.

The big cats very, very occasionally attack, usually in areas where there is no predator control (natural or otherwise). Elk are harmless and good to eat.

All that said, I usually bring a rifle or shotgun when camping, in addition to my Glock that accompanies me everywhere. This is mainly because I camp in the Arizona desert, and having seen the armament carried by the local deputies, I'd feel a bit "light" with just a pistol. I'm more concerned with stumbling on a meth operation or running across a group of motivated illegals than fighting off some scrawny coyotes, though. 

A repeating shotgun with slugs or any decent .30-caliber rifle will work fine for any of the animals you mentioned, and will also easily put down anything walking on two legs. No reason to get worked up about gun selection for such a pedestrian task. Anything powerful enough to put down a little black bear will work fine.


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## TOF

Mike Barham said:


> Ah, the obligatory wildlife defense thread! Spring is in the air! As with most things on the Disinformation Cowpath, the threat is blown completely out of proportion by people who just want an excuse to carry their guns around.
> 
> Black bears very, very seldom pose any kind of threat to humans. Bear attacks in general are far more common on the internet than they are in real life, and almost invariably involve the big browns.
> 
> Coyote attacks are practically unheard of - they're just mangy little 40-pound dogs who usually spook at their own shadows. Wolves are so rare that you'd be lucky to even see one, never mind be attacked by a wolfpack.
> 
> The big cats very, very occasionally attack, usually in areas where there is no predator control (natural or otherwise). Elk are harmless and good to eat.
> 
> All that said, I usually bring a rifle or shotgun when camping, in addition to my Glock that accompanies me everywhere. This is mainly because I camp in the Arizona desert, and having seen the armament carried by the local deputies, I'd feel a bit "light" with just a pistol. I'm more concerned with stumbling on a meth operation or running across a group of motivated illegals than fighting off some scrawny coyotes, though.
> 
> A repeating shotgun with slugs or any decent .30-caliber rifle will work fine for any of the animals you mentioned, and will also easily put down anything walking on two legs. No reason to get worked up about gun selection for such a pedestrian task. Anything powerful enough to put down a little black bear will work fine.


I agree that the wildlife threat is generally overblown however it does exist. Poisonous snakes are in general more of a threat than Bear or Lion. We have however, had children attacked by Mountain Lion and Bear of the black variety in very recent Arizona History. Last I heard we didn't have any "Brown" Bear in the area although I have observed a couple of Cinnamon Color phase bear in my front yard within the past 12 months. One of my shooting buddies has a Lion pelt hanging on his wall that he shot in mid air on the attack. He had inadvertently been enticed in by a varmint call that was meant for coyotes. Although wildlife, as indicated by Mike, very seldom pose a threat to man, when they do it can be a very significant threat. In my opinion the danger level in the boonies is not much different than when walking down the street in a big City. Most of us will never need our CCW but when it is needed it is truly needed. Not being familiar with "The Gorge" I don't know what potential threat you face so my recommendation is based on Arizona. The Black Bear in Arizona I have personally seen have been as large as 454 pounds. That weight was taken by Forest Service personnel after trapping a bear that had broken car windows to get to dog food and cabin windows to get to grocery stores in the kitchen of a house 400 feet from mine. The cabin incident is what prompted me to pressure my wife to carry a .357 snubby loaded with .38Spl. during her walks in the woods each day. That is not what I want her to carry but she is not ready for any more yet. I carry a 4" .357 or M&P40 With hot loads. As usual for maximum protection a 12 Gauge with slugs could be carried but I believe to be overkill in most of the lower 48. When I was in Alaska the 12 gauge was minimum but I believe your .40 will provide the level of protection you need and be much less of a hassel to carry. Bullets intended for protection against man are not the best selection for protection against Bear or Hogs. You need something that will penetrate such as FMJ if Hunting bullets are not available for the chosen gun. 

Enjoy your outing.

:smt1099


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## submoa

Use common sense. Secure your food up in a tree away from your tent and/or vehicle.

On the other hand if you are really scared of Yogi and Boo-Boo mugging you and your buddy at night, I like my favorite Anti-Zombie weapon, the AA-12 automatic 12 gauge shotgun:

1 - Ammo Capacity: Even the Benelli Super-90 only holds eight rounds, and as evidenced by a panicked Ving Rhames in "Dawn of the Dead", 8 is not enough. The AA-12 holds a minimum 10 rounds in a quick loading mag, or 20 or greater in a fast firing (and easy to load) drum. 
2 - Reloading Ability: No longer is the shotgun operator stuck opening the breech or sliding in shell after shell - just drop and replace a mag or drum with the AA-12. 
3 - Rate of Fire: No contest here. The AA-12 Automatic Shotgun produces an incredible 300 rounds per minute - thats 5 rounds per second you're pumping into zombie heads, always on target. You can even mount it on a vehicle. 
4 - Range and Power: You certainly don't need to worry about range and power when your grouping and accuracy is so tight. Not to mention you can fire grenade rounds 175 yards - more later. 
5 - Ease of Use: It may be heavy, but it's rugged and reliable, and incredibly easy to use; even a 100 pound woman can fire the weapon one-handed. Point and shoot - it doesn't get any easier.










PS. As it is not hunting season, you might want to consider the available fin-stabilized FRAG-12 fragmentation round. The only way Ranger Bob will know about what you've done is through chemical analysis of the Yogi-paste on the trees.










PPS. Don't let your buddy touch the AA-12 if he's Dick Cheney.


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## JeffWard

... Yogi-paste...

:smt082


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## Mike Barham

*TOF* makes good counterpoints, as usual, and is correct that in many areas snakes are the biggest problem. Just being smart and maybe having an uncool .22 revolver with ratshot will usually deal with a snake.

*submoa* slays me. :mrgreen: However, I fear this will give *fhf* some scary ideas.

I'm not saying there is _no_ threat from wildlife, of course, just that it is minimal compared to what we read on the internet. I think a lot of people who post about guns for wildlife defense on web sites seldom actually leave their computers and spend any time in the woods/desert. Anyway, bring any good long gun and then enjoy the camping trip, instead of suspiciously eyeballing every tree that might be concealing a Zombie Elk. ;-)


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## dallaswood43

*true dat*

i enjoy fishing and hiking and just about every type of outdoor activity. we receive a few outdoors magazines at my work and i have to get a kick out of them and i think its where a lot of animal threat fears originate. you get headlines such as "killer bear attack," "cougar threat," blah blah and blah blah. i just see it as justification for predator hunting quite frankly. the scarier and more threatening we can make these animals seem, the better we can feel about shooting them. if people want to hunt them in regulated seasons then hunt them, but the portrayal is hilarious at best and hillbilly-ish at worst. there is a really funny south park episode where they go out hunting and they convince each other that they will be justified in shooting anything that moves as long as it poses a threat. they proceed to shoot rabbits and all other manner of harmless animals, but first they scream the obligatory "it's coming right for us!" i take it that many hunters shoot bears and such in real danger but sadly probably just as many seize the opportunity to poach and then when busted tell the tale of how they were "attacked." i'm not anti hunting actually although you might get that impression. i go rabbit hunting just about every year and have been deer hunting 2 or 3 times as well.

one might just as easily say that a human attacker is just as unlikely as an animal attacker i suppose. i would argue however that human behavior is more unpredictable than animal behavior.


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## fivehourfrenzy

I've spent my entire life camping...and have never come across any dangerous wildlife, other than several full grown striped skunks that I got within three feet of walking around trees, boulders, or brush. There's nothing more unsettled than turning a corner and seeing a huge skunk eyeing you, then starting to turn itself around to spray. I've never pulled a 180 and ran so fast in my entire life.

Venomous snakes are rated to be the biggest threat in this area, and whatever is in second place is way behind. 2 3/4" #4 buckshot would take out a rattler or cottonmouth pretty quick. Or you could simply walk around it, but if you've already made camp and a snake decides to boogy on in with an attitude, I'd rather shoot the damn thing than move camp or climb a tree. However, snakes can make for great entertainment. Dad and I were camping at the Kentucky State Park and our campsite, which was at a campground, had a series of rocks jutting out of the ground next to the pavement. There were holes all over, and we saw a field mouse running in and out of it. He looked spooked. We soon found out why...a small copperhead slithered out of one of the holes, then in another. The chase went on for well over an hour, and Dad and I put our chairs about ten feet away and watched while we ate our dinner. Then some three-year old girl came flying into our campsite on a tricycle completely out of control, went off the pavement, and ate sh*t in the bushes. Her two brothers ran down, picked her up, and carried her back to their campsite, leaving the tricycle.

Yes, guns are legal in the area, and are generally recommended for safety reasons. In all honesty, I would be more worried about some weird hermit stalking us at night than an animal attack. You meet some weird folk when you camp for a couple of decades. A handgun would suffice, but I might as well bring the shotgun. I could bring a few boxes of slugs and some targets, find a spot with a secure backstop, and zero my sights.

I do need to get two new epi-pens before we leave as I'm highly anaphylactic. I've built somewhat of a tolerance since I was first stung on the forehead by a paper wasp, but a venomous snake could put me out of my misery pretty quickly if I can't get epinephrine in my system soon enough after a bite.


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## john doe.

A black bear is often more aggressive than it's brown cousin. I fear a cougar more than anything else. In my area of the rockies we don't (at least that's what I've heard and I have not seen one) have a rattle snake population.

I have a Reminton 870 but don’t want the extra weight for camping. It may be a good thing to keep tucked away in our camper though. I use to haul around a Ruger Super Blawkhawk when I went backpacking in Alaska. I never did see anything that worried me except my buddy did get his finger bit by the ground squirrels we were feeding out of our hands.


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## sheepdog

The threat of bear, cat, or snake is real, if rare....the threat of 2-legged trouble, greater; If I were camping, I'd carry a 12 ga. pump loaded with a shotshell(#6 Hi-Brass) in the chamber(which you can shuck if a larger threat shows up) and the magazine full of slugs...some buckshot for reloads....other than the snake, pinpoint accuracy may be necessary...and buckshot renders you unarmed if the perp is standing behind your loved one, and is much less effective on a bear....until you can smell his breath...full stock and alertness go with that...seeing the snake/bear/perp first reduces the likelihood of a shooting being necessary...just like on the street....be prepared...be alert...and learn to do this wherever you are...and still enjoy your life...it's not so hard....


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## Mike Barham

Here's a link to fatal bear-human collisions in North America: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_decade. Black bear attacks are more common recently, while brown bear attacks dominate the older attacks. Anyway, the overwhelming majority of the attacks happened in Alaska and Canada, while a few happened in northern CONUS. One was in Tennessee, and it looks like it was a little kid.

Anyway, fatal attacks in the southern states appear exceedingly rare.


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## TOF

As indicated within the list, the list is incomplete. I know a number of attacks have occured in Arizona over the years none of which are listed. As with many things on the Internet the list is only part of the story.

:smt1099


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## fivehourfrenzy

Well, in any case, I'll have slugs and buckshot with me. And yes Mike, I'll have a side saddle so I can quickly load up anything I might need in an emergency. Not really justification for a side saddle, but I want one, so I'm getting one. :mrgreen: That and a mag extension and my shotgun is finished.

Having a firearm on hand just makes me feel safer in any situation. It doesn't make me do what I wouldn't do without a gun, or make me feel like a badass, or this and that, but gives me a safe feeling of comfort for those "just in case" scenarios.

I did some more reading on the Gorge and there are definitely a ton of venomous snakes in there. I prefer to do my hiking off trail and get somewhat lost (not the point of not being able to get out), and I'm not afraid of snakes, but I don't like them. Especially since a snakebite could kill me rather quickly. It's too bad poison ivy doesn't get killed by buckshot as I'm highly allergic to it as well, but in mid March, it's not out yet.

As far as threat of attack goes, there's a higher chance of a human being creating a problem than a black bear or cougar. I've come across the shadiest, creepiest people in the woods...messed up people. I even had a guy follow me into a bathroom at a camping ground and peer at me over the stall door when I sat down on the toilet. I'm not kidding. Weird.


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## Mike Barham

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I even had a guy follow me into a bathroom at a camping ground and peer at me over the stall door when I sat down on the toilet.


Maybe he just wanted a better look at your tattoo. :mrgreen:


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## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> Maybe he just wanted a better look at your tattoo. :mrgreen:


I was thirteen or fourteen at the time. I didn't get my first tattoo until I was nineteen. :numbchuck:


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## gmaske

As I understand the buck shot and slug thing. The buck shot goes to the face to blind the bear and the slugs are to finish the job. It is supose to be what the Alsaken bear hunting guides carry.


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## fivehourfrenzy

Whether it be a shot to the shoulder or face, the buckshot's for slowing the bear down so one can effectively place a slug where it needs to go. If there's an animal that can't be taken down with 1 or 1 1/4 ounce slugs, you shouldn't be there, period.


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## Mike Barham

I'd load all slugs and shoot carefully.


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## dallaswood43

*black bear fatality*

a young boy was killed in utah just last year by a black bear. i don't think it was in the national headlines but it was all over the news here. it took him from his tent at night. so i guess just like anything else freak things can happen.


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## fivehourfrenzy

That's unfortunate...and if you're mauled while sleeping, there's no weapon in the world that can save you.

I could be wrong, but I've heard from pretty reliable sources that if a brown bear is approaching or standing up on its back legs, it might just be curious and wanting to get a good look at you. If a black bear is approaching, it has full intentions of making you a meal. We don't have brown bears here, but we do have black bears, and although the threat is next to none of an attack, it's still there.


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## submoa

fivehourfrenzy said:


> That's unfortunate...and if you're mauled while sleeping, there's no weapon in the world that can save you.


When camping, always bring a buddy who is fatter and slower than you and smells like salmon. Better still, take my ex-wife who is all three.


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## fivehourfrenzy

submoa said:


> When camping, always bring a buddy who is fatter and slower than you and smells like salmon. Better still, take my ex-wife who is all three.


:anim_lol::anim_lol::anim_lol: Give me her number and I'll take her with me!


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## niadhf

submoa said:


> When camping, always bring a buddy who is fatter and slower than you and smells like salmon. Better still, take my ex-wife who is all three.


:smt082:smt082:smt046:smt082
do you live in Florida and did you try to outrun the police in your new vet? (see joke in offbeat)

FHF here is an excuse for a new handgun. Revolver (sa or da) in 45 colt or 41 or 44 magnum. Loaded with shot realoads you can take snakes easy. plent of other ammo options for other alternating cylinders, and much lighter/easier to carry than the old street howitzer


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## fivehourfrenzy

niadhf said:


> :smt082:smt082:smt046:smt082
> do you live in Florida and did you try to outrun the police in your new vet? (see joke in offbeat)
> 
> FHF here is an excuse for a new handgun. Revolver (sa or da) in 45 colt or 41 or 44 magnum. Loaded with shot realoads you can take snakes easy. plent of other ammo options for other alternating cylinders, and much lighter/easier to carry than the old street howitzer


I haven't entertained the thought of a revolver. I don't plan on getting another handgun anytime soon. I have one for CC, one for target/small game, and in a coupla' weeks a 12-gauge for camping defense, home defense, and small game. Don't really need another one.


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