# Scenario open for discussion; Do you shout get out or not



## SouthernBoy

There have been some good and helpful discussions recently regarding scenarios and what people would do or not do under certain circumstances in them. So here is another one. Please do join in with your comments and thoughts.

You are awakened in the wee hours of the morning to the sounds of someone breaking into your home. Once you are convinced that what you are hearing is real, you begin putting into action your plan you and your wife, or husband, have discussed a number of times. As you are set and in a ready/waiting condition, do you shout out to the BG(s) that you are armed and the police have been called, or do you remain quiet and wait until the BG(s) are in your line of sight?

Please include the structure of your home (single level, two-story, apartment, etc.) and briefly where you would be placing yourself as you wait.

Hopefully this will be both entertaining and helpful to others by giving them good information and ideas they may also wish to employ in their own plans.


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## Bisley

Who knows? In the first place, if he has forcibly entered my home, he is 'paid for,' regardless of whatever I decide is necessary for the safety of my family, from that point forward.

If I can see that he is armed, I will almost certainly shoot, because he has a willingness, if not intent, to harm whoever is inside.

Anything else is an unknown that can go any one of a hundred different ways, but I won't take risks, just to save an intruder into my home.


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## GCBHM

Well, given these parameters, my initial thought is that I would not shout out; however, consider this. You're convinced it is real, but it turns out that the "intruder" is one of your half-grown kids who has stupidly made it home drunk, and is fumbling their way through the house just trying to get to their appointed place not alerting you to the fact that they are drunk. We all know how kids are not always the best at deductive reasoning. In that case, if you were to shout out something like "who goes there" it may help to identify friend of foe. 

I live in a multi-level home with the master suite on the main level with a dining room just inside the front door to the left which leads to the kitchen with an off-shute hallway to the MBR. To the right of the front door is another door to the front garage. This direction also leads you into the living room which will also lead you around to the other side of the kitchen. At the entry into the kitchen at that point (which is a rather wide opening) there is a door leading downstairs and just past that, a staircase leading up to the upper level. 

My base of defense is behind my bed which gives me a very open, clear field of vision to the door. It is very close quarters at my bedroom door, so anyone looking to come in will be cramped. My wife's side of the bed is closest to the bathroom, and she would quickly move into the bathroom to position herself in a way that she can see the closet door and main bathroom door, and be on the phone with 911. The boys are upstairs and would be able to defend their area well. It would be difficult for anyone to take the advantage, unless they were actual operators, but I don't think many of us will ever face a scenario where we have to deal with contract operators with real tactical experience and skills. 

An interesting question which I have often thought I would just sit quietly until the police arrive with the thought process that if anyone penetrates my barrier I would open fire. There are a lot of variables to consider, especially if you have kids old enough to be out late. Sounding off, in most cases, I think, would likely serve to either identify the "intruder" to be someone you know or perhaps ward off an actual BG. I really don't want to shoot anyone, and I believe it is our obligation to do all we can to prevent it if at all possible. Most of the time, late night break-ins are not going to be someone there to kill you. I would think those who commit home invasions with the intent to do harm do so at times when people are up, and their targets are usually people they have identified as defenseless either being single women or the elderly. 

At this point, I think I may be inclined to give a warning sound out.


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## TheTourist

If he's dead when the police arrive, what does it matter?


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## paratrooper

No kids in our home. Just me and the wife.

I'm not a heavy sleeper. If / when I get up in the middle of the night, I'm not foggy headed like some might be, probably due to the fact of having worked overnight shifts for years and years. 

Anyways, I'm not a shouter.


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## desertman

It would all depend on the circumstances. If at all possible grab my gun and a cell phone, and try to get out of the house in order to avoid having to shoot somebody. The legal repercussions would be far more costly than a few stolen items. I would most certainly have to hire a lawyer to defend myself in what will surely be a civil suit. Even if the shooting was justifiable.


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## SouthernBoy

My primary question of would you shout to get out or not was directed to; 1) shouting to get them out of the house without resorting to the use of deadly force or, 2) not shouting because it will most likely give your position away.

I don't have anyone who lives in my home other than myself and my wife so there is no concern about someone entering my house who is drunk and who lives there (neither of us get drunk - we are very light drinkers).

If someone breaks into my home in this scenario, he is at least a burglar, which is a felony for which a deadly response is justified. That means it is my decision whether or not to fire on him/them or try to get them out of the house. The issue of giving away my position is a very real concern because you don't know who this or these people are and what their intent is by them being in your home. An attorney well versed in these matters recommended not giving your position away unless you were certain they were not armed. He suggested it would be better to shoot them.

Like paratrooper, I wake up quickly and fully alert to things that are not right in my home. I have been tested with this and know it to be so. Fortunately, the alarm turned out to be false but at the time, we didn't know this and put our plan into immediate play.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> It would all depend on the circumstances. If at all possible grab my gun and a cell phone, and try to get out of the house in order to avoid having to shoot somebody. The legal repercussions would be far more costly than a few stolen items. I would most certainly have to hire a lawyer to defend myself in what will surely be a civil suit. Even if the shooting was justifiable.


Getting out of our house would absolutely not be a smart thing to do. Our home is a two-story single family and going down the stairs to exit the front could put us in mortal danger. Our house is pretty large and there are a number of places where someone could hide on the first floor yet still have an easy shot at someone coming down the stairs to exit. So that option is not an option at all for us.

*"The legal repercussions would be far more costly than a few stolen items."*
I don't anticipate this since I have a personal liability umbrella policy for just such situations. Besides, the way our system here works... If someone was in your home uninvited and a clear danger to your and yours, there is not much chance you are going to be charged. Not out of the realm of possibility, just not too likely.

*"I would most certainly have to hire a lawyer to defend myself in what will surely be a civil suit. Even if the shooting was justifiable."*
This is rare in my state.


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:
We also have stand your ground here in Arizona and it is also highly unlikely criminal charges would be filed. Regardless if you are cleared or not you can pretty much count on being sued in civil court. No matter which state you live in anyone can sue over anything whether it's trivial or not. Especially if you wasted someone's father or husband even though they were engaged in criminal behavior. More than likely these people have nothing to begin with and nothing to lose, that's why they steal or engage in other types of criminal activity to support themselves. There are too many ambulance chasing lawyers that will glom on to these people like flies in shit. At least to me the cost of defending myself in a civil suit would exceed any amount of stolen property that they could physically take out of my home before the police arrived. Of course every situation is different and it would all depend on which area of the home that was broken into and your location at that time. At least for me, if I hear someone breaking into my home and I can safely get out I'm going to do it. I will do all in my power to avoid getting into a shooting incident regardless if the individual deserved it or not. That being said I would not hesitate to use deadly physical force if my life or my wife's was in immediate danger.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> We also have stand your ground here in Arizona and it is also highly unlikely criminal charges would be filed. *Regardless if you are cleared or not you can pretty much count on being sued in civil court. No matter which state you live in anyone can sue over anything whether it's trivial or not.* Especially if you wasted someone's father or husband even though they were engaged in criminal behavior. More than likely these people have nothing to begin with and nothing to lose, that's why they steal or engage in other types of criminal activity to support themselves. There are too many ambulance chasing lawyers that will glom on to these people like flies in shit. At least to me the cost of defending myself in a civil suit would exceed any amount of stolen property that they could physically take out of my home before the police arrived. Of course every situation is different and it would all depend on which area of the home that was broken into and your location at that time. At least for me, if I hear someone breaking into my home and I can safely get out I'm going to do it. I will do all in my power to avoid getting into a shooting incident regardless if the individual deserved it or not. That being said I would not hesitate to use deadly physical force if my life or my wife's was in immediate danger.


While you certainly can be sued over pretty much anything, entering into civil litigation after your actions have been found to be justified or excusable in Virginia is pretty rare. I asked a commonwealth's attorney and a man running for sheriff of that county this very question after a course/seminar on Virginia law and the use of deadly force. Neither of them could recall such a case in the state and certainly not in their county, which touches my county. Both said it was rare.


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## paratrooper

An "intruder" may not always be inside your home.

How about outside, banging on your door at 4am?

Spencer Crandall shot: Sleepwalker pays ultimate sacrifice trespassing - National Top News | Examiner.com


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## paratrooper

SouthernBoy said:


> While you certainly can be sued over pretty much anything, entering into civil litigation after your actions have been found to be justified or excusable in Virginia is pretty rare. I asked a commonwealth's attorney and a man running for sheriff of that county this very question after a course/seminar on Virginia law and the use of deadly force. Neither of them could recall such a case in the state and certainly not in their county, which touches my county. Both said it was rare.


When it comes to crime, courts, and lawsuits, nothing is engraved in stone.....no matter who might imply otherwise.


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> While you certainly can be sued over pretty much anything, entering into civil litigation after your actions have been found to be justified or excusable in Virginia is pretty rare.


Rare or not, I do not want to be a test case. I wish the laws were set up so that there could be absolutely no legal repercussions either civil or criminal for justifiable self defense. That's just not the case anywhere, Virginia is no exception. Will the lawsuit be tossed out? Maybe, maybe not, you'll still have to hire a lawyer and go to court once the lawsuit is filed. There is no law preventing anyone from filing a lawsuit anywhere or for anything. If you have anything of value, given the opportunity someone will try and sue you for it. Gun manufacturers were being sued in order to try and bankrupt them out of business. Those filing the suits knew they would lose in court but filed them anyway knowing that it would cost the gun manufactures millions to defend themselves. Especially if every individual who got shot with one of their products decided to sue.


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## desertman

paratrooper:


> When it comes to crime, courts, and lawsuits, nothing is engraved in stone.....no matter who might imply otherwise.


Absolutely!


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## Steve M1911A1

TheTourist said:


> If he's dead when the police arrive, what does it matter?


Well, when the police arrive he had better be found dead inside our home, near our "hunker-down" area, and with a deadly weapon in his hand.
If those three criteria are not met, it is we who are in trouble.

A burglar does not have to be alive, to present the investigators with useful testimony and evidence.
Dead people do indeed tell tales.

Our single-story home has multiple entry points, including five "front" doors and lots of easily accessed windows. Our bedroom is furthest from all of the normal points of entry, at the end of a very long hall, but it has two easily accessed windows. All of our entries, windows included, are not easily visible from either the street or from neighboring properties.

If Jean or I heard breaking glass (which would be the only way into the locked-up house) I would arm myself with my 24/7 pistol and a flashlight, and send Jean into the blind-cornered and windowless master bathroom. It would then be her job to call 9-1-1.
As I set off down the hallway, I would retrieve our shotgun from its unlocked holder and rack it. Then, invariably, I would "sing out," telling the intruder that the police are on their way, that I am armed, and that I am hunting him/them.

Standing at our end of our long hallway, I have a clear field of fire. There are no hiding places in the hallway, so I will be able to see anyone who enters or crosses it. There is nobody else in the house but us and him/them. We have dim night lights all over the house, so my dark-acclimated eyes would have the visual advantage.
Ahead is our library, a tactical dead end. To the right is an outside-access door and our office, also a dead end. A few steps past the end of the hallway is a door to the kitchen on my left. That's the most likely place I'd find an intruder who had broken through glass to get into the house.
I would either station myself at the library end of the hallway to await the cops, or "pie" my way to the office to check it. If I had to continue, I'd "pie" the kitchen, but then go straight ahead to the door to the living-and-dining room, on my left. I'd "pie" my way into that, and clear it.
By that time, I'd know whether the intruder is armed. I would do my best to avoid a fire-fight, retreating slightly if possible, and calling out that I know where he is, and that he'd better remain in place. Then I'd just be watchful, and I'd await the police.
When I hear them arriving, I would call out once again, telling them everything I know. I would again call out, asking them to tell me what they want me to do.


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> My primary question of would you shout to get out or not was directed to; 1) shouting to get them out of the house without resorting to the use of deadly force or, 2) not shouting because it will most likely give your position away.
> 
> I don't have anyone who lives in my home other than myself and my wife so there is no concern about someone entering my house who is drunk and who lives there (neither of us get drunk - we are very light drinkers).
> 
> If someone breaks into my home in this scenario, he is at least a burglar, which is a felony for which a deadly response is justified. That means it is my decision whether or not to fire on him/them or try to get them out of the house. The issue of giving away my position is a very real concern because you don't know who this or these people are and what their intent is by them being in your home. An attorney well versed in these matters recommended not giving your position away unless you were certain they were not armed. He suggested it would be better to shoot them.
> 
> Like paratrooper, I wake up quickly and fully alert to things that are not right in my home. I have been tested with this and know it to be so. Fortunately, the alarm turned out to be false but at the time, we didn't know this and put our plan into immediate play.


I don't think giving your position away is all that critical unless you're expecting to have to deal with trained killers. In most situations, I believe that any sort of noise is going to alert an intruder to get the hell out of there b/c they don't want to get caught, or worse, killed. That doesn't mean that they won't attempt to do bodily harm, but if they know that you know they are there, then they have lost the advantage of surprise and it could only go down hill from that point.

I'm not one to think I'm not going to scare them off b/c if they are in my house I want to kill them. I'm not a "tough guy" who thinks I've got something to prove. If there is something that I can do to send an intruder away without killing them, I'm for it. Why? B/c any confrontation increases the odds of me getting killed! Why not alert them? Why put yourself in the position to have to deal with an intruder? If they are there to do harm, they're going to do try to regardless, but if not, the odds are greater that they will leave post haste.

Also, why put yourself in the position, if you do win the confrontation, of having the extra curricular activity that comes with that, such as police reports, trauma of killing someone, especially with the question of if you really had to, etc. Seems to me the confrontation you don't have to confront with deadly force is a win/win.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> It would all depend on the circumstances. If at all possible grab my gun and a cell phone, and try to get out of the house in order to avoid having to shoot somebody. The legal repercussions would be far more costly than a few stolen items. I would most certainly have to hire a lawyer to defend myself in what will surely be a civil suit. Even if the shooting was justifiable.


I agree with the SouthernBoy, I'm not getting out of the house unless that is absolutely necessary. My best chance for survival, in most cases, is barricaded in a good defensive position with my weapons, with the cops on the way and me in communication with them. Once you leave the house, your footing for a justifiable shooting diminishes significantly, as does your odds of survival as you move through the house. Your best bet is to get barricaded, stay put and call for help.


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## hillman

I live alone, in a 2 story house. My bedroom is upstairs. A break-in in the night time requires me to take my gun(s) behind the offside of my bed, where I have a clear view of the head of the stairs. The light there is a little brighter than in my room. If I hear the invader on the stairs, I may or may not tell him in a conversational tone that I have a gun; the odds lean toward not, I don't like the strategy. He ought to assume that I do, this being Vermont.


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> Once you leave the house, your footing for a justifiable shooting diminishes significantly.


You see that's the whole point, once I'm safely outside the house first, it's unlikely that I will even be in a confrontation. I do not want to even be in a justifiable shooting. I will have already called 911 from outside and the police would probably arrive in about 10 minutes. No amount of property is worth killing someone over. Burglary, as much as I detest it, according to law is not punishable by death. The only time deadly force is justified is if your life or the life of an innocent person is in immediate danger. Why put yourself in that situation? Of course there are just too many scenarios to cover on this forum on what an individual might do in any given situation. A lot of it has to do with your location on your premises at the time of a break in and where the break in occurs. If I caught someone by surprise and was able to hold them at gun point and the individual lunged at me of course I would shoot them. Same if they were in the process of breaking into my house and I ordered them to freeze at gunpoint and they still continued to try and enter. Naturally if I was in a room with no way out, the only thing I could do is hunker down and wait for them to come to me, giving me the element of surprise. But generally speaking if I were in another part of the house, heard someone breaking in and had the opportunity to get out, I sure as hell will. Unfortunately none of us can accurately predict what would happen during a home invasion, what the invaders intentions are or where we will be located at the time of a break in.


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## desertman

hillman:


> He ought to assume that I do, this being Vermont.


Same for Arizona!


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> When it comes to crime, courts, and lawsuits, nothing is engraved in stone.....no matter who might imply otherwise.


This is true and I never said it wasn't. I only said not common (yes I know, not my exact words) for the first case and rare for the second.


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> An "intruder" may not always be inside your home.
> 
> How about outside, banging on your door at 4am?
> 
> Spencer Crandall shot: Sleepwalker pays ultimate sacrifice trespassing - National Top News | Examiner.com


Call the police, then pick a good spot that offers both cover and your ability to see what's going down while you are armed and at the ready.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> Rare or not, I do not want to be a test case. I wish the laws were set up so that there could be absolutely no legal repercussions either civil or criminal for justifiable self defense. That's just not the case anywhere, Virginia is no exception. Will the lawsuit be tossed out? Maybe, maybe not, you'll still have to hire a lawyer and go to court once the lawsuit is filed. There is no law preventing anyone from filing a lawsuit anywhere or for anything. If you have anything of value, given the opportunity someone will try and sue you for it. Gun manufacturers were being sued in order to try and bankrupt them out of business. Those filing the suits knew they would lose in court but filed them anyway knowing that it would cost the gun manufactures millions to defend themselves. Especially if every individual who got shot with one of their products decided to sue.


Yes I am fully aware of this and never said otherwise. I simply said that it's rare in my state (not my words, those of someone who would know these things). And that is why I have insurance coverage for just such an event.


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## SouthernBoy

*"Well, when the police arrive he had better be found dead inside our home, near our "hunker-down" area, and with a deadly weapon in his hand.
If those three criteria are not met, it is we who are in trouble."*

This is not the case in my state. Someone who breaks in at night is at the minimum a burglar. Armed or not, they are a felon and the use of deadly force is an acceptable response for this felony. That leaves it up to the homeowner as to what they are willing to do in a situation such as this. You must always assume the worse case scenario when put in an extreme encounter and if you have yelled to them to leave and they don't, then the stakes just got a lot higher.


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## pic

SB, 
As you stated, "once you are convinced " 
I would most likely stand my ground behind a bulletproof tactical position. I would want full advantage in this situation. 

I did this once, was quiet as a mouse, but the next time might be different. I was scared.


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> I don't think giving your position away is all that critical unless you're expecting to have to deal with trained killers. In most situations, I believe that any sort of noise is going to alert an intruder to get the hell out of there b/c they don't want to get caught, or worse, killed. That doesn't mean that they won't attempt to do bodily harm, but if they know that you know they are there, then they have lost the advantage of surprise and it could only go down hill from that point.
> 
> I'm not one to think I'm not going to scare them off b/c if they are in my house I want to kill them. I'm not a "tough guy" who thinks I've got something to prove. If there is something that I can do to send an intruder away without killing them, I'm for it. Why? B/c any confrontation increases the odds of me getting killed! Why not alert them? Why put yourself in the position to have to deal with an intruder? If they are there to do harm, they're going to do try to regardless, but if not, the odds are greater that they will leave post haste.
> 
> Also, why put yourself in the position, if you do win the confrontation, of having the extra curricular activity that comes with that, such as police reports, trauma of killing someone, especially with the question of if you really had to, etc. Seems to me the confrontation you don't have to confront with deadly force is a win/win.


You have made very salient points and have hit at the heart of this thread. I don't know whether or not I would call out for them to get out of my home... I suppose I would probably handle this on a case by case basis and leave that door open to the instant case at hand. Like you I am not anxious to shoot anyone, nor do I wish to deal with the aftermath, whatever it could be. My preference would be to shout at them, "The police are on the way, get out of my house" and chalk it all up to lessons learned.

The issue of shout out or not is a difficult one to decide upon but my inclination is to warn them to leave immediately.


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## SouthernBoy

hillman said:


> I live alone, in a 2 story house. My bedroom is upstairs. A break-in in the night time requires me to take my gun(s) behind the offside of my bed, where I have a clear view of the head of the stairs. The light there is a little brighter than in my room. If I hear the invader on the stairs, I may or may not tell him in a conversational tone that I have a gun; the odds lean toward not, I don't like the strategy. He ought to assume that I do, this being Vermont.


If he is rather close when you take your position and see him, then some thinking requires a drastic change. If you tell him to leave, will he turn, see you, and fire or run towards you? That attorney I mentioned said if he is coming up the stairs, shoot him.

These are hard decisions and you people have made some good points.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> You see that's the whole point, once I'm safely outside the house first, it's unlikely that I will even be in a confrontation. I do not want to even be in a justifiable shooting. I will have already called 911 from outside and the police would probably arrive in about 10 minutes. No amount of property is worth killing someone over. Burglary, as much as I detest it, according to law is not punishable by death. The only time deadly force is justified is if your life or the life of an innocent person is in immediate danger. Why put yourself in that situation? Of course there are just too many scenarios to cover on this forum on what an individual might do in any given situation. A lot of it has to do with your location on your premises at the time of a break in and where the break in occurs. If I caught someone by surprise and was able to hold them at gun point and the individual lunged at me of course I would shoot them. Same if they were in the process of breaking into my house and I ordered them to freeze at gunpoint and they still continued to try and enter. Naturally if I was in a room with no way out, the only thing I could do is hunker down and wait for them to come to me, giving me the element of surprise. But generally speaking if I were in another part of the house, heard someone breaking in and had the opportunity to get out, I sure as hell will. Unfortunately none of us can accurately predict what would happen during a home invasion, what the invaders intentions are or where we will be located at the time of a break in.


*"No amount of property is worth killing someone over."*
Not even your home? I can think of an event of property destruction which is answerable with deadly force.

*"The only time deadly force is justified is if your life or the life of an innocent person is in immediate danger."*
In the case of burglary, that is a felony for which the use of deadly force can be a justifiable response.... where I live. There are four others.

You see in my case, trying to get out of my house if I hear a break in is not a viable option since it is a two-story single family home. Add to this the fact that my wife can't move as quickly as can I, the issue gets more complicated. Our best bet is to dial 911 right away then employ the second part of our plan; take our predetermine places and wait for the cavalry while armed and alert.

The most obvious place where someone is likely to break into my house is at the door at the bottom of our basement walkup. That is a wide area, maybe eight feet across with French doors (one that's real and one that is just for show). This will set off our alarm and get us moving in our plan.

People who live in single story homes have a more immediate situation because they lack the buffer of the second story. We lived in a rambler for 24 years and had to put our plan into effect twice. Whole different set of circumstances in that home.


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## pic

I would not run out of my house.

You might run into a possible look out partner of the bad guy inside the house.

Rather have the dead perp. Inside my house rather then outside. 

Also , if the cops were called, you don't need to be standing outside with a firearm


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## GCBHM

U


desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> You see that's the whole point, once I'm safely outside the house first, it's unlikely that I will even be in a confrontation. I do not want to even be in a justifiable shooting. I will have already called 911 from outside and the police would probably arrive in about 10 minutes. No amount of property is worth killing someone over. Burglary, as much as I detest it, according to law is not punishable by death. The only time deadly force is justified is if your life or the life of an innocent person is in immediate danger. Why put yourself in that situation? Of course there are just too many scenarios to cover on this forum on what an individual might do in any given situation. A lot of it has to do with your location on your premises at the time of a break in and where the break in occurs. If I caught someone by surprise and was able to hold them at gun point and the individual lunged at me of course I would shoot them. Same if they were in the process of breaking into my house and I ordered them to freeze at gunpoint and they still continued to try and enter. Naturally if I was in a room with no way out, the only thing I could do is hunker down and wait for them to come to me, giving me the element of surprise. But generally speaking if I were in another part of the house, heard someone breaking in and had the opportunity to get out, I sure as hell will. Unfortunately none of us can accurately predict what would happen during a home invasion, what the invaders intentions are or where we will be located at the time of a break in.


Why risk putting yourself in harms way trying to get out when you're at least as safe staying barricaded waiting for police? It's foolish. You're odds of getting into a confrontation only increase when you start moving around, unless you can egress from your bedroom. Best to stay put with your defensive posture. You start moving and you're now on the offensive.


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## paratrooper

No one should discount just how crazy someone might be that breaks into your home. Trying to apply normal person responses to someone that decides to enter another's home is crazy. 

Criminals don't always act like you or me. They do things that simply astonishes the average person. They do things that we are not expecting. Many times, drugs are involved, and only make matters worse. Just because you have a gun in your hand and you have it pointed at the intruder, don't even think that you have everything under control. Many are convinced that you won't have the mental fortitude to use it. Drugs make some feel invincible. 

It's literally impossible to paint a picture of what or what not to do in any given situation. Give three people the same exact environment, the same situation, and the same training, and you'll more than likely end up with three different outcomes.

There comes a point that you have to trust your gut and your instincts. They are what keep most of us alive on a dally basis. Training makes you aware. It doesn't always make you right.


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> You have made very salient points and have hit at the heart of this thread. I don't know whether or not I would call out for them to get out of my home... I suppose I would probably handle this on a case by case basis and leave that door open to the instant case at hand. Like you I am not anxious to shoot anyone, nor do I wish to deal with the aftermath, whatever it could be. My preference would be to shout at them, "The police are on the way, get out of my house" and chalk it all up to lessons learned.
> 
> The issue of shout out or not is a difficult one to decide upon but my inclination is to warn them to leave immediately.


I'm really glad you posted this scenario b/c I honestly did not consider calling out until you forced me to think about it, but then it just sort of came to me. I'm not an "old" man, as it were, but I have been exposed to a lot of things many men my age haven't just due to the military and training we receive; however, I've still got a LOT to learn, and this thread (along with this forum) is an outstanding resource for exactly that.

Of course, as you said, these things have to be dealt with on a case by case basis, and even then, no two scenarios will ever be exactly the same. I like what Steve said about calling out and telling the intruder what you know. I think doing so would only serve to communicate to them that you are alert, you have the advantage of knowing the landscape, and that help is on the way. Most intruders will flee upon the first sign of trouble, but if one wants to be stubborn, this plan could only help my cause. At least, I think so. Maybe shouting something like "I have called the police and I have plenty of fire power. Get the hell out while you can!" will help to keep both of us alive.

For me, I have a pretty good defensive position, I have my EDC pistol and an AR-15 pistol (which is perfect for CQC) if the need to use it should arise. From this position, I should be able to fend off any type of attack at least until the police arrive, and if they get me in a rush, then it really doesn't matter. But like I said, most of us really don't have to worry about having to deal with a hit squad.

Leaving the house just isn't an option for me. I lose my advantage altogether. I'm in the open, and like someone pointed out, why would I want to be outside with a gun in my hands with police on the way? Not to mention that once I start moving through the house my odds for confrontation increase exponentially. THAT alone is reason enough to just stay put.

Good thread!


----------



## Steve M1911A1

SouthernBoy said:


> (Quoting me): "Well, when the police arrive he had better be found dead inside our home, near our "hunker-down" area, and with a deadly weapon in his hand.
> If those three criteria are not met, it is we who are in trouble."
> 
> *This is not the case in my state*...[emphasis added]


You keep writing this (and in several different threads).
Are we to only consider a scenario in terms of the Commonwealth of Virginia?

In the State of Washington, I can reply to an attack only with equivalent force, or with greater force only if I am at a life-threatening disadvantage.

Thus, I cannot kill out-of-hand someone who "merely" enters my home to commit burglary. If he tries to avoid me, I may not press the issue, although I can follow him, and I can even cut off his escape route, trap him, place him under arrest, and hold him for the police.
Of course, I still find our state's restriction against using deadly force to resist burglary to be ludicrous, since someone who is willing to commit a "hot" burglary (that is, when the resident is known to be at home) must be, by definition, either insane or armed and desiring a confrontation.


----------



## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> No one should discount how just crazy someone might be that breaks into your home. Trying to apply normal person responses to someone that decides to enter another's home is crazy.
> 
> Criminals don't always act like you or me. They do things that simply astonishes the average person. They do things that we are not expecting. Many times, drugs are involved, and only make matters worse. Just because you have a gun in your hand and you have it pointed at the intruder, don't even think that you have everything under control. Many are convinced that you won't have the mental fortitude to use it. Drugs make some feel invincible.
> 
> It's literally impossible to paint a picture of what or what not to do in any given situation. Give three people the same exact environment, the same situation, and the same training, and you'll more than likely end up with three different outcomes.
> 
> There comes a point that you have to trust your gut and your instincts. They are what keep most of us alive on a dally basis. Training makes you aware. It doesn't always make you right.


I agree! All the more reason to stay in a defensive position, whether you call out or not. I do not want to have to face down a threat for exactly the reasons you stated. If I don't have to, I'm not going to! Like I said, I have nothing to prove to anyone. I'm not a special operator, so why the hell would I want to start trying to act like one working my way through my house looking for the intruder or trying to get out? No, I'm going to stay put, and if I have to defend my position, I will at all costs. But if I don't have to, then I'm much better off.


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## DirtyDog

It depends...

If the bad guy has empty hands and is between me and the door, I'm happy to give them the opportunity to flee.
If they're armed or has to get closer to me in order to leave, then no, I am not going to give them that chance. I mght (or not, depending on the exact situation) give them the chance to lay down prone and avoid being shot. But any movement towards me will be considered an attack.


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## GCBHM

DirtyDog said:


> It depends...
> 
> If the bad guy has empty hands and is between me and the door, I'm happy to give them the opportunity to flee.
> If they're armed or has to get closer to me in order to leave, then no, I am not going to give them that chance. I mght (or not, depending on the exact situation) give them the chance to lay down prone and avoid being shot. But any movement towards me will be considered an attack.


OK, but the scenario is that it is late, and you are awakened out of a sleep to the sound of an intruder. What do you do?


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> You keep writing this (and in several different threads).
> *Are we to only consider a scenario in terms of the Commonwealth of Virginia?*
> 
> In the State of Washington, I can reply to an attack only with equivalent force, or with greater force only if I am at a life-threatening disadvantage.
> 
> Thus, I cannot kill out-of-hand someone who "merely" enters my home to commit burglary. If he tries to avoid me, I may not press the issue, although I can follow him, and I can even cut off his escape route, trap him, place him under arrest, and hold him for the police.
> Of course, I still find our state's restriction against using deadly force to resist burglary to be ludicrous, since someone who is willing to commit a "hot" burglary (that is, when the resident is known to be at home) must be, by definition, either insane or armed and desiring a confrontation.


Absolutely not.

I only mention that to give a level of credence to what I write and to show that I am not speaking in general terms. I am not very familiar with the laws in other states, in your state, so I cannot speak with the level of fact in those cases.


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## Goldwing

GCBHM said:


> I agree! All the more reason to stay in a defensive position, whether you call out or not. I do not want to have to face down a threat for exactly the reasons you stated. If I don't have to, I'm not going to! Like I said, I have nothing to prove to anyone. I'm not a special operator, so why the hell would I want to start trying to act like one working my way through my house looking for the intruder or trying to get out? No, I'm going to stay put, and if I have to defend my position, I will at all costs. But if I don't have to, then I'm much better off.


"The fight that you avoid is a fight that you won"
GW


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## Steve M1911A1

goldwing said:


> "The fight that you avoid is a fight that you won"
> GW


...Most of the time, anyway.


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## Cait43

No way do I inform an intruder of anything.......... When he/they happen upon me my gun will go bang because I am in fear for my life........

Wisconsin law makes it perfectly clear... and also is immune from civil liability in a self defense shooting.........
Wisconsin Legislature: 2011 Wisconsin Act 94


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## DirtyDog

GCBHM said:


> OK, but the scenario is that it is late, and you are awakened out of a sleep to the sound of an intruder. What do you do?


Just what I said. The time of day doesn't change my response. 
If the badguy doesn't have a weapon in hand and can exit my home without exposing any of us to additional risk, then I will probably let them go. If not, then I will (depending on the exact circumstances) either give them the choice of capture or death. If they have a weapon in hand or are do anything threatening (like, say, taking one step towards me or mine) then I will kill them.



Cait43 said:


> No way do I inform an intruder of anything.......... When he/they happen upon me my gun will go bang because I am in fear for my life........
> 
> Wisconsin law makes it perfectly clear... and also is immune from civil liability in a self defense shooting.........
> Wisconsin Legislature: 2011 Wisconsin Act 94


Colorado is the Home of the Make My Day law. That doesn't mean I don't have a moral and ethical obligation to avoid killing someone except as a last resort.


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## paratrooper

Armed intruder or not, they all get the armed treatment from me. If someone enters my home, I have to assume they mean me and mine, harm. 

There's no way that I can positively tell if someone is armed or not, simply because their hands are empty. "Been there and done that," many times over. 

I know my home better than anyone else, and can negotiate it in total darkness. It's not so big that you can get lost or turned around in it under those conditions. I know what noise is common late at night and what isn't. And, I know where those noises originate from. 

To each their own on how they want to protect their "castle" and their loved ones. As I mentioned previously, I don't have kids in my home. If I did, they would be first and foremost on my mind, and getting to them would be paramount. That would mean leaving the security of my bedroom and going to theirs. 

There are very few free passes in life anymore. If you are so desperate and stupid to enter into my home w/o permission and your intent is to rob or harm us, even if you are unarmed, you will not get a free pass. Depending upon the circumstances, you will either walk out while under escort, or you will be carried out. 

It really is just that simple!


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## thewoodshop

Sorry to shift focus. Does this question still apply after the dogs have had a go at the intruder. They are going to hear him/her before I do and are not going to be too friendly to him/her.


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> No one should discount how just crazy someone might be that breaks into your home. Trying to apply normal person responses to someone that decides to enter another's home is crazy.
> 
> Criminals don't always act like you or me. They do things that simply astonishes the average person. They do things that we are not expecting. Many times, drugs are involved, and only make matters worse. Just because you have a gun in your hand and you have it pointed at the intruder, don't even think that you have everything under control. Many are convinced that you won't have the mental fortitude to use it. Drugs make some feel invincible.
> 
> It's literally impossible to paint a picture of what or what not to do in any given situation. Give three people the same exact environment, the same situation, and the same training, and you'll more than likely end up with three different outcomes.
> 
> There comes a point that you have to trust your gut and your instincts. They are what keep most of us alive on a dally basis. Training makes you aware. It doesn't always make you right.


Excellent post and excellent points. I have also said and written for years that one of the things that gets good people injured or killed in an extreme encounter is that they cannot think like a BG. They just don't do this. Most believe that there is good in everyone so this tends to cause them to hesitate when they shouldn't. And BG's know this.

Excellent post.


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> I'm really glad you posted this scenario b/c I honestly did not consider calling out until you forced me to think about it, but then it just sort of came to me. I'm not an "old" man, as it were, but I have been exposed to a lot of things many men my age haven't just due to the military and training we receive; however, I've still got a LOT to learn, and this thread (along with this forum) is an outstanding resource for exactly that.
> 
> Of course, as you said, these things have to be dealt with on a case by case basis, and even then, no two scenarios will ever be exactly the same. I like what Steve said about calling out and telling the intruder what you know. I think doing so would only serve to communicate to them that you are alert, you have the advantage of knowing the landscape, and that help is on the way. Most intruders will flee upon the first sign of trouble, but if one wants to be stubborn, this plan could only help my cause. At least, I think so. Maybe shouting something like "I have called the police and I have plenty of fire power. Get the hell out while you can!" will help to keep both of us alive.
> 
> For me, I have a pretty good defensive position, I have my EDC pistol and an AR-15 pistol (which is perfect for CQC) if the need to use it should arise. From this position, I should be able to fend off any type of attack at least until the police arrive, and if they get me in a rush, then it really doesn't matter. But like I said, most of us really don't have to worry about having to deal with a hit squad.
> 
> Leaving the house just isn't an option for me. I lose my advantage altogether. I'm in the open, and like someone pointed out, why would I want to be outside with a gun in my hands with police on the way? Not to mention that once I start moving through the house my odds for confrontation increase exponentially. THAT alone is reason enough to just stay put.
> 
> Good thread!


I mentioned that I was on the fence about yelling out a warning to someone who has broken in. My reason was that this could give away your position in your home. Well there is another part of this which has not been addressed.

If the BG(s) is armed with a firearm(s) and is of a mind, he could now send a barrage in the direction of your voice. Bullets generally have little trouble penetration drywall and even floor joists. You and your wife, and others, could get hit in a hail of brass and lead. As paratrooper wrote, you have no idea what their plan of action is going to be once inside of your home.


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## SouthernBoy

DirtyDog said:


> Just what I said. The time of day doesn't change my response.


Unfortunately for me, it does make a difference in my state. This is a holdover from our original laws dating back to 1607. If someone breaks in after the sun goes down, essentially night time, then they are a burglar. If this take place in the daytime, they are a trespasser. Trespassers are treated differently than burglars so in the daytime, I would have to be in fear of serious bodily harm to myself or others before I could employ deadly force to a trespasser.


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## desertman

Paratrooper:


> *It's literally impossible to paint a picture of what or what not to do in any given situation.* Give three people the same exact environment, the same situation, and the same training, and you'll more than likely end up with three different outcomes.


Exactly! My first plan *if at all possible* is to get out of the house to avoid a confrontation and be involved in a shooting incident. As I tried to explain in one of my earlier posts this may not be possible because of where the break in occurred and where I am located in the home at that time. One can come up with hundreds of different situations and there can be hundreds of different ways to respond to them. Only after it occurs will one know whether they did the right thing or not.


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> why would I want to be outside with a gun in my hands with police on the way?


I'm not going to be standing outside of my home with a gun in my hands. I'm smart enough to conceal it while waiting for the police to arrive. Just as I would not want to be caught by the police inside the home with a gun in my hands. What's the difference? How would the police differentiate who is the victim or who is the invader? You could be in your house barricaded in your room ready for the intruder to come in. Only unbeknownst to you it is the police who arrived. It's dark they've got a flashlight in your face. All you see is maybe a silhouette. How do you know it's the police? The police mistake you for the intruder, see you have a gun in your hand and shoot you dead. Anything could happen, we can come up with thousand's of "what ifs". My thinking on this is that once you are out of the house more than likely the intruder or intruders will be inside and you will no longer be in any danger. There are more places you could go outside instead of being trapped inside your home. You could go to a neighbors, hide out in the yard, walk across the street etc. while waiting for the police to arrive. Granted, it may not be possible to get out, but if it is that is the first thing that I would do. Another thing I would do is give the police a description of myself and what I am wearing. Once they arrived I would put my hands up, inform them that I am armed, where the gun is on my person, and let them take it from there.


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## desertman

duplicate post


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## desertman

SouhernBoy:


> Not even your home? I can think of an event of property destruction which is answerable with deadly force.


More than likely a burglar is not going to be interested in burning down your home. They just want to get in steal what they can steal and get out. Arson is a completely different story for which the use of deadly physical force is justified. No one can tell anyone what they should do in any given situation. After all none of us will be there to instruct them when it happens to someone else. I'm just saying what I would do if it happens to me and the reasons why I would take that course of action. I fully understand because of different circumstances that course of action may not be possible. Not only for me but for anyone.


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## desertman

Paratrooper:


> How about outside, banging on your door at 4am?


I had that happen once, only it was around 1 am. A couple of people were banging on our door at that time. We didn't answer it and immediately called the police. We looked out the window as they were standing in the walkway and all we could see was their silhouettes, heard them talking and assumed they were about to break in. They then left. Between 5 and 10 min. later the police arrived, unfortunately we really couldn't give them a description of the individuals. We think it could have been a couple of teenagers at the wrong house looking for an all night party or something?


----------



## pic

desertman said:


> Paratrooper:
> 
> Exactly! My first plan *if at all possible* is to get out of the house to avoid a confrontation and be involved in a shooting incident. As I tried to explain in one of my earlier posts this may not be possible because of where the break in occurred and where I am located in the home at that time. One can come up with hundreds of different situations and there can be hundreds of different ways to respond to them. Only after it occurs will one know whether they did the right thing or not.


Your response probably suits your situation.

I would trust your response based on your situation, no doubt.

Adding children to the equation may change things. Adding 10 lbs of gold bullion might change ones action, lol.


----------



## paratrooper

thewoodshop said:


> Sorry to shift focus. Does this question still apply after the dogs have had a go at the intruder. They are going to hear him/her before I do and are not going to be too friendly to him/her.


Dogs are and can be a great asset when it comes to protecting a home. That's if you have one. They are a great first line of defense.

We've never had a dog, but we do have three cats, but not by choice. They tend not to be all that confrontational when it comes to intruders. That, and the fact that you can't even herd them all that easily.


----------



## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> SouhernBoy:
> 
> *More than likely a burglar is not going to be interested in burning down your home.* They just want to get in steal what they can steal and get out. Arson is a completely different story for which the use of deadly physical force is justified. No one can tell anyone what they should do in any given situation. After all none of us will be there to instruct them when it happens to someone else. I'm just saying what I would do if it happens to me and the reasons why I would take that course of action. I fully understand because of different circumstances that course of action may not be possible. Not only for me but for anyone.


I agree with this. The problem with nighttime break-ins is that the BG has to assume that there are going to be people in the home asleep, and he does run the risk of encountering at least one of them. Unless he knows that the home is unoccupied (vacation, just moved out, etc.) he must take into consideration what he is going to do in the event he does encounter someone inside.

This whole scenario raises the problems an individual might encounter during a break-in and I am very thankful for that. There has been some excellent dialogue and some valuable points put forth which I imagine some have not thought of before.


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## desertman

SuthernBoy:


> This whole scenario raises the problems an individual might encounter during a break-in and I am very thankful for that. *There has been some excellent dialogue and some valuable points put forth which I imagine some have not thought of before.*


Indeed there has! Most burglaries occur during the daytime while the occupants are away at work. Criminals do not like the thought of armed confrontation either. A dog can be good but poses it's own set of problems when locked up inside the house all day. Ours would go to the bathroom all over the house. A good alarm system and a good quality safe in my opinion is the way to go.


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## desertman

paratrooper:


> We've never had a dog, but we do have three cats, but not by choice.


We have two cats, by choice. Only once had a dog, that was enough. Nothing against dogs, just not for us.


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## rustygun

I don't know if I would yell out. I do know I would not warn the intruder I have a gun. I would save that for a loud surprise if needed. In my state I can shoot an intruder but I would try to avoid that. Calling the police, getting to a gun, making sure everyone is accounted for is top on my list. You just never know what that bump in the night could be, is it some career criminal, the 17 year old neighbor kid breaking into your house who you have known since he was 5 and now addicted to drugs and cant help himself or even a group of people. Really hope I never have to find out but it is good to prepare.


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## Steve M1911A1

SouthernBoy said:


> I mentioned that I was on the fence about yelling out a warning to someone who has broken in...If the BG(s) is armed with a firearm(s) and is of a mind, he could now send a barrage in the direction of your voice...


I consider this scenario possible, but relatively unlikely.
People who commit "hot" burglaries are either insane, or they are looking for a confrontation in order to prove their _machismo_.
The confrontation seekers will be exhibiting fear, will be easily "spooked," and will not be thinking clearly. The insane ones will also not be thinking clearly.
In both cases, shooting fairly accurately at an unseen voice will not be within their normal capacity. (Shooting wildly, of course, may indeed be within their capacity.)

Shooting wildly at me merely gives me license to stop them from further attempts to harm me and my wife.
That cannot end well for the intruder.

But most likely, I believe, a forceful challenge coming unseen "out of the night" would cause a "normal" intruder to flee in fear.
Thus, the encounter would most likely end with no shots fired by either side.


----------



## GCBHM

DirtyDog said:


> Just what I said. The time of day doesn't change my response.
> If the badguy doesn't have a weapon in hand and can exit my home without exposing any of us to additional risk, then I will probably let them go. If not, then I will (depending on the exact circumstances) either give them the choice of capture or death. If they have a weapon in hand or are do anything threatening (like, say, taking one step towards me or mine) then I will kill them.
> 
> Colorado is the Home of the Make My Day law. That doesn't mean I don't have a moral and ethical obligation to avoid killing someone except as a last resort.


Ok, well there is no way of you knowing if the intruder has a weapon unless you go find him and confront him, at which point you've put yourself in a rather precarious position of dealing with him, needlessly. Why not get to a position of defense, call the police and wait for help?


----------



## BackyardCowboy

Depending on the layout of your house, yelling out may tell the intruder exactly where you are.
The main question being that if you yell, do you say "Get out of my house" "I am armed, get out" or another statement.
Remember any response/comment you post on this or any forum could come back to haunt you if you are ever in such a situation. The prosecutor (or in civil court the plaintiff's attorney) would want to know any and all internet forums you belong to. They'll look at your Facebook pages and any other social media forum as well.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> I'm not going to be standing outside of my home with a gun in my hands. I'm smart enough to conceal it while waiting for the police to arrive. Just as I would not want to be caught by the police inside the home with a gun in my hands. What's the difference? How would the police differentiate who is the victim or who is the invader? You could be in your house barricaded in your room ready for the intruder to come in. Only unbeknownst to you it is the police who arrived. It's dark they've got a flashlight in your face. All you see is maybe a silhouette. How do you know it's the police? The police mistake you for the intruder, see you have a gun in your hand and shoot you dead. Anything could happen, we can come up with thousand's of "what ifs". My thinking on this is that once you are out of the house more than likely the intruder or intruders will be inside and you will no longer be in any danger. There are more places you could go outside instead of being trapped inside your home. You could go to a neighbors, hide out in the yard, walk across the street etc. while waiting for the police to arrive. Granted, it may not be possible to get out, but if it is that is the first thing that I would do. Another thing I would do is give the police a description of myself and what I am wearing. Once they arrived I would put my hands up, inform them that I am armed, where the gun is on my person, and let them take it from there.


I understand, but why put yourself at greater risk of having to confront and possibly injured or killed by the intruder just to get outside? How is getting outside going to give you an advantage?


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## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> An "intruder" may not always be inside your home.
> 
> How about outside, banging on your door at 4am?
> 
> Spencer Crandall shot: Sleepwalker pays ultimate sacrifice trespassing - National Top News | Examiner.com


If someone is outside your home, they are not an intruder. You shoot them and you're going to jail.


----------



## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> I mentioned that I was on the fence about yelling out a warning to someone who has broken in. My reason was that this could give away your position in your home. Well there is another part of this which has not been addressed.
> 
> If the BG(s) is armed with a firearm(s) and is of a mind, he could now send a barrage in the direction of your voice. Bullets generally have little trouble penetration drywall and even floor joists. You and your wife, and others, could get hit in a hail of brass and lead. As paratrooper wrote, you have no idea what their plan of action is going to be once inside of your home.


Like I said, if someone is in the mind to hurt you, they're going to attempt it regardless of what you do. So don't yell out to them. That's fine. Just barricade, call the police and wait for them to arrive. If the BG leaves before police arrive, survey the loss and file the report, but if they are of the mind to hurt you, they will come looking for you, and when they find you, you are barricaded and have the full advantage.

If you're roaming through the house, you give that advantage away. If you're dealing with a hit squad, all this is really academic.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I consider this scenario possible, but relatively unlikely.
> People who commit "hot" burglaries are either insane, or they are looking for a confrontation in order to prove their _machismo_.
> The confrontation seekers will be exhibiting fear, will be easily "spooked," and will not be thinking clearly. The insane ones will also not be thinking clearly.
> In both cases, shooting fairly accurately at an unseen voice will not be within their normal capacity. (Shooting wildly, of course, may indeed be within their capacity.)
> 
> Shooting wildly at me merely gives me license to stop them from further attempts to harm me and my wife.
> That cannot end well for the intruder.
> 
> *But most likely, I believe, a forceful challenge coming unseen "out of the night" would cause a "normal" intruder to flee in fear.
> Thus, the encounter would most likely end with no shots fired by either side.*


I'm pretty sure that this is how most break-ins wind up when someone is home and presents a threat to the BG. I don't know what the statistics show with this but I would wager you're correct.


----------



## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> Like I said, if someone is in the mind to hurt you, they're going to attempt it regardless of what you do. So don't yell out to them. That's fine. Just barricade, call the police and wait for them to arrive. If the BG leaves before police arrive, survey the loss and file the report, but if they are of the mind to hurt you, they will come looking for you, and when they find you, you are barricaded and have the full advantage.
> 
> If you're roaming through the house, you give that advantage away. If you're dealing with a hit squad, all this is really academic.


It's hard for me to imagine a situation where I would leave my position and try to hunt down some intruder. That is just begging to windup in the hospital or the morgue as far as I can see.


----------



## GCBHM

I don't understand this obsession with not wanting to give your position away. Think about it. It's in the middle of the night, and you are awakened by the noise of someone breaking in. In most cases, an intruder breaking in during the middle of the night is probably doing so b/c they think you're not there, but even if they know you are there, where are you most likely to be? In most cases, in this scenario, you're going to be asleep in your bed, in your bedroom. I don't know about your houses, but it's not hard to tell where the bedrooms are most of the time. Most burglars do case their targets out before they hit, and most hit while you're not home b/c they do not want to risk being confronted, but if they do decide to break in while you may be there, odds are they already have a good idea where you are. No, they don't "know", but let's be real. You are most likely going to be in your bed, and they know it. 

If it's the kid next door, he already knows the lay out of the house anyway, so they have a pretty good idea where you are anyway. Besides, it isn't like yelling out is going to tell an intruder exactly where you are. They don't know where you have positioned yourself in your bedroom/bathroom/safe room, and you still have the advantage of seeing them coming or fighting from a defensive barricade. 

If you are in fact dealing with someone who is there to hurt you, you have an entirely different set of circumstances altogether. Most of the time, if someone wants to hurt you, they are not going to break in your house in the middle of the night, but if they do it will be quietly so that you don't hear them coming in. The odds are greater that if someone wants to hurt you they will attack you while you're out and they have the advantage of catching you in a far less defensive position, but again, this is a whole other set of circumstances. 

OK, so let's say you yell out and they do start shooting in your general area. Now you know they aren't professional, and the odds of them hitting you are slim, if you're barricaded in your defensive position. Now you can tell the 911 operator they have shot at you, and they can notify the police so that they have knowledge of it. Now you know their intent is to do harm, you know to be quiet, and let them come to you. If they leave when you yell out, then you can just wait until the police arrive and investigate the scene. Now you have help there, and your odds of survival have increased. 

I guess my question is what is your motive. There is nothing wrong with not yelling out. Like I said, I never considered doing so until I read this thread b/c I always thought I would just barricade and let them come to me. If they left without looking for me, great, but if they did come looking for me, I am in a better position to fight if I am barricaded. I think in most cases, if you yell out (or the dog barks) the intruder is gone. In the case that the intruder is of a mind to hurt you, then they are going to try to do it regardless, in which case they are going to figure out pretty quickly where you are anyway. I think there is a lot of reading into it, and maybe a little TV specops going. "If the intruder has a weapon I'll kill them". Well yeah...unless they kill you first. I promise you that you're not the black ops special operator you think you are, and you will likely get yourself killed. 

I'm pretty well trained to use weapons and think critically, and the one time that I thought I was going to have to shoot someone who had broken into my home my heart was beating so hard I could literally hear it in my hears, and taste it on the tip of my tongue. I can tell you that if you have only "thought" about what you would do, you are not prepared. I can tell you that if you have had no tactical training at all from someone who knows what they are doing, you are not prepared. Every cop that I have asked about home invasions has said get somewhere you can defend well and call 911. DO NOT go looking for the threat! Also, it is a good idea to have an egress route identified in the case you NEED to get out of the house, but if you can, stay put until the police arrive. Yell out or don't yell out, that is up to you, but you are far better off in a defensive position with your weapon on the phone with 911.


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## GCBHM

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I consider this scenario possible, but relatively unlikely.
> People who commit "hot" burglaries are either insane, or they are looking for a confrontation in order to prove their _machismo_.
> The confrontation seekers will be exhibiting fear, will be easily "spooked," and will not be thinking clearly. The insane ones will also not be thinking clearly.
> In both cases, shooting fairly accurately at an unseen voice will not be within their normal capacity. (Shooting wildly, of course, may indeed be within their capacity.)
> 
> Shooting wildly at me merely gives me license to stop them from further attempts to harm me and my wife.
> That cannot end well for the intruder.
> 
> But most likely, I believe, a forceful challenge coming unseen "out of the night" would cause a "normal" intruder to flee in fear.
> Thus, the encounter would most likely end with no shots fired by either side.


I have to agree. I really believe 99.9% of the early morning intrusion we would have to deal with could be diffused with a yell/command to get the hell out. A dog could stop them from even coming in at all! IF you are dealing with the 1%, per se, then it's going to get exciting regardless. Hunker down and be smart.

If you are the target of a high level hit squad, well...


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> I understand, but why put yourself at greater risk of having to confront and possibly injured or killed by the intruder just to get outside? How is getting outside going to give you an advantage?


Who's to say I'd be at greater risk? If I were in a part of my home where there was no way to safely exit, naturally I wouldn't even attempt it. If I were in a part of my home where I could safely exit I would. Why put yourself in the position to confront an intruder(s) if you can get out of the house safely? It just makes no sense to me. You have to understand that every possible situation has to have a different solution. No one can say that in all circumstances you should just barricade yourself in a room and wait for the intruder(s) to come to you. Many things can go wrong then too. There really is no one easy answer as to how to respond to a break in that will work for all circumstances. No matter where you are in your home you could still possibly be killed or injured by an intruder(s). Maybe the intruder(s) come barging into your barricaded room flashlight in hand blinding you, you can't see them but they can surely see you. What do you do shoot at the light? Say they're holding the light away from their body? With a gun in the other hand? It would be pretty difficult to aim and fire a handgun accurately while staring at a blinding light. More than likely the intruder(s) will have a flashlight. Say you're barricaded in your room and the door starts to creak open. What do you do? Start blasting away at the door? Say it turns out to be your wife or kid at the door seeking refuge from the burglar who has just broken into your home from the basement. They might be afraid to call out to you for fear of giving away yours or their position. As "SouthernBoy" and "Paratrooper" correctly stated:



> If the BG(s) is armed with a firearm(s) and is of a mind, he could now send a barrage in the direction of your voice. Bullets generally have little trouble penetration drywall and even floor joists. You and your wife, and others, could get hit in a hail of brass and lead. As paratrooper wrote, *you have no idea what their plan of action is going to be once inside of your home.*


This is the main reason that I will, *if at all possible*, I repeat* if at all possible* try and get out of the house. Once you are safely outside the police will be in a better position to handle those that are still inside of your residence. That is what they are trained to do. The only way I would even attempt to confront an intruder is if I had absolutely no other choice.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> Who's to say I'd be at greater risk? If I were in a part of my home where there was no way to safely exit, naturally I wouldn't even attempt it. If I were in a part of my home where I could safely exit I would. Why put yourself in the position to confront an intruder(s) if you can get out of the house safely? It just makes no sense to me. You have to understand that every possible situation has to have a different solution. No one can say that in all circumstances you should just barricade yourself in a room and wait for the intruder(s) to come to you. Many things can go wrong then too. There really is no one easy answer as to how to respond to a break in that will work for all circumstances. No matter where you are in your home you could still possibly be killed or injured by an intruder(s). Maybe the intruder(s) come barging into your barricaded room flashlight in hand blinding you, you can't see them but they can surely see you. What do you do shoot at the light? Say they're holding the light away from their body? With a gun in the other hand? It would be pretty difficult to aim and fire a handgun accurately while staring at a blinding light. Say you're barricaded in your room and the door starts to creak open. What do you do? Start blasting away at the door? Say it turns out to be your wife or kid at the door seeking refuge from the burglar who has just broken into your home from the basement. They might be afraid to call out to you for fear of giving away your position. As "SouthernBoy" and "Paratrooper" correctly stated:
> 
> This is the main reason that I will *if at all possible* try and get out of the house. Once you are safely outside the police will be in a better position to handle those that are still inside of your residence. That is what they are trained to do. The only way I would even attempt to confront an intruder is if I had absolutely no other choice.


You're reading into the scenario. It's the middle of the night, and you are awakened by an intruder, so unless you're asleep somewhere other than your bedroom, that is where you will be when this scenario takes place. Asleep, in your bed, in your bedroom. Can you get out of your house from your bedroom without potentially crossing paths with the intruder?

Sure, there are other scenarios under which actions other than barricading is more appropriate, and that has been covered. "In most cases", under the conditions of the scenario presented, the best choice is to barricade, call police and stay put. I said previously that I have a gun on me at all times in the case that someone decides to invade my home while we are up and moving about, eating dinner, doing what people do before they go to bed. So let's say it's 5pm, that I'm sitting at my kitchen bar, two of the boys are upstairs playing their games, and my little girl is playing in the living room. My wife is in the garage working, and some fool bursts in the front door. I doubt seriously that I'm going to run to my bedroom to barricade and call police.

I can't tell you exactly what I would do, but I can tell you my initial response will be to assess the situation to determine how to best confront the threat as quickly as possible. Past that, it will just depend on the circumstances at hand, but this scenario was what do you do when you're awakened in the middle of the night by an intruder breaking in. Do you yell out or do you not yell out. Do you still submit that your initial response will be to get out of your house?


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> You're reading into the scenario. It's the middle of the night, and you are awakened by an intruder, so unless you're asleep somewhere other than your bedroom, that is where you will be when this scenario takes place. Asleep, in your bed, in your bedroom. Can you get out of your house from your bedroom without potentially crossing paths with the intruder?


Unless they break into my bedroom directly, yes I can. Again, I said *if at all possible* get out of the house. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand? If I am awakened when the alarm goes off or the sound of glass breaking and the intruder is coming through the window or door of my bedroom I will grab my gun and do what I have to do. There will be little time left to do anything else.


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> Do you still submit that your initial response will be to get out of your house?


I don't know, we can come up with all kinds of circumstances all day long and different ways to handle it. Again, I said *if at all possible*. Man, this is getting tiresome, I'm going to bed I hope that nobody tries to break in.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> Unless they break into my bedroom directly, yes I can. Again, I said *if at all possible* get out of the house. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand? If I am awakened when the alarm goes off or the sound of glass breaking and the intruder is coming through the window or door of my bedroom I will grab my gun and do what I have to do. There will be little time left to do anything else.


It isn't difficult to understand that you said "if at all possible". The question was WHY at all would you want to get out. But hey...it's just a discussion bruh...no need to get tired or irritated over something so trivial. Sweet dreams my friend.


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## DirtyDog

GCBHM said:


> Ok, well there is no way of you knowing if the intruder has a weapon unless you go find him and confront him, at which point you've put yourself in a rather precarious position of dealing with him, needlessly. Why not get to a position of defense, call the police and wait for help?


If I can see their hands, I can see if they're empty. If they're not, or I can't see them, then it's not unreasonable to assume there's a weapon in them. If they're empty and I have a gun aimed at them, I am pretty sure I can fire faster than they can draw, aim and fire. And if I'm uncertain, I'll err on the side of MY safetey, not theirs.


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## GCBHM

DirtyDog said:


> If I can see their hands, I can see if they're empty. If they're not, or I can't see them, then it's not unreasonable to assume there's a weapon in them. If they're empty and I have a gun aimed at them, I am pretty sure I can fire faster than they can draw, aim and fire. And if I'm uncertain, I'll err on the side of MY safetey, not theirs.


I think you're missing the point. The only way you can see their hands is if you are near them, which can really only happen one of two ways. One, they breaking into your bedroom (or the room in which you're sleeping) which would make your statement make sense. Or two, you go looking for them (which is really a more likely scenario) which is why I asked why would you go looking for them.

You never actually stated how you got to the point where you see them, which is why I asked. No big deal, just curiousity on my part. I think in most cases an intruder isn't going to break in to the bedroom of the homeowner. Not that it is impossible, but most of the time break ins occur in another part of the house, and I think that was assumed in this scenario since the question was "do you yell out or not". If they are in the room with you, there would be no need to yell out.


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> The question was WHY at all would you want to get out.


I think I've explained that.



> But hey...it's just a discussion bruh...no need to get tired or irritated over something so trivial.


No offense intended or hard feelings but it gets to a point where I have to repeat myself. I guess what this entire discussion boils down to is that no one solution is possible for a variety of different circumstances. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.


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## Bisley

desertman said:


> ...I guess what this entire discussion boils down to is that no one solution is possible for a variety of different circumstances. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.


In the end, you can't know how any scenario is going to branch off into something you weren't expecting.

The bottom line is that you have to be committed to doing what it takes to win, try to choke down the panic that might be threatening to destroy your ability to think, and do the best you can.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> I think I've explained that.
> 
> No offense intended or hard feelings but it gets to a point where I have to repeat myself. I guess what this entire discussion boils down to is that no one solution is possible for a variety of different circumstances. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.


I agree there isn't only one solution. I guess I keep asking looking for something that sticks with me. I think the whole point of it is to see what you can gleen from others so that you have more than one idea of how you might be able to handle it if you do find yourself in THAT situation you never thought you'd be in.


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## DirtyDog

GCBHM said:


> I think you're missing the point. The only way you can see their hands is if you are near them, which can really only happen one of two ways. One, they breaking into your bedroom (or the room in which you're sleeping) which would make your statement make sense. Or two, you go looking for them (which is really a more likely scenario) which is why I asked why would you go looking for them.
> 
> You never actually stated how you got to the point where you see them, which is why I asked. No big deal, just curiousity on my part. I think in most cases an intruder isn't going to break in to the bedroom of the homeowner. Not that it is impossible, but most of the time break ins occur in another part of the house, and I think that was assumed in this scenario since the question was "do you yell out or not". If they are in the room with you, there would be no need to yell out.


Our master suite is in the basement - we're day sleepers. 
There are other bedrooms on the ground floor. If there is a bad guy in the house, I'm going after them, not hiding downstairs while they do whatever they want with the kids. 
I'm a light sleeper, and since we work nights we tend to be up late even on our days off. If the kids come home late, they announce themselves - "it's me..." Or something. So the 'bump in the night means I'm coming up. Armed.


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## GCBHM

DirtyDog said:


> Our master suite is in the basement - we're day sleepers.
> There are other bedrooms on the ground floor. If there is a bad guy in the house, I'm going after them, not hiding downstairs while they do whatever they want with the kids.
> I'm a light sleeper, and since we work nights we tend to be up late even on our days off. If the kids come home late, they announce themselves - "it's me..." Or something. So the 'bump in the night means I'm coming up. Armed.


That is a slightly different layout than most, so I understand your thought process on it. I think as long as you have a plan then you've got a leg up. Something for everyone to consider.


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## paratrooper

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/attachments/img_408196663055641-jpeg.380150/

Sometimes, the simplest and most obvious solution is the best. :watching:


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## desertman

GCBHM:


> I agree there isn't only one solution. I guess I keep asking looking for something that sticks with me. I think the whole point of it is to see what you can gleen from others so that you have more than one idea of how you might be able to handle it if you do find yourself in THAT situation you never thought you'd be in.


Fortunately, I doubt any of us will ever be in THAT situation. Most break in's occur during the daytime and on weekdays when most people are at work. Nothing beats a good alarm system preferably one that operates with a cellular phone so there are no phone lines to cut and a heavy safe of good quality. Depending on where you live such as states that are 2nd Amendment friendly most people are armed. Your average everyday burglar looking for drug money does not want to risk armed confrontation. As to an individual or group of murderous thug(s) just out to break into someone's home just to kill somebody. How often does that happen? That being said I still carry sidearm's every where I go and have a few on me constantly while I am at home. You never know.


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## Shipwreck

As a probation officer, I read a lot of offense reports after people get caught. Most of these people in many of these break-ins are doing it for drugs. Meth, cocaine, marijuana. They take the high end stuff and sell it for pennies on the dollar to buy drugs. Most are not the brightest, are are not the "professional" thieves with the smarts on where to look at in your home that you hear about on tv all the time. That may be the case in large cities, but not so much in the country or small towns. At least IMHO.... 

Many of these breakins happen WITH the people at home. But, a lot of the ones out in the country happen during the day, when they expect people to be gone. Those are usually done by meth heads...

As for myself - I have a fair share of people who "hate me" because of my job - and I've had some threats made against me here and there. So, an intruder in my house could be there for more than one reason. I have to keep that in mind.

That being said, I won't go step by step on what I would do on an open internet forum. Sorry. I think that's a bad idea for various reasons...

However - pretty much all the experts (for whatever that is worth) state that leaving your house in the middle of a burglary is probably a bad idea. I will second that and say that I think it's a poor idea unless some strange circumstances dictate it. But, do what you want. Most crooks will start running as soon as one shot is fired. So, even with multiple assailants, I wouldn't leave the home. It's unlikely that they will all continue towards you unless more than a burglary is going on. 

But, do what you want.


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## paratrooper

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> Fortunately, I doubt any of us will ever be in THAT situation. Most break in's occur during the daytime and on weekdays when most people are at work. Nothing beats a good alarm system preferably one that operates with a cellular phone so there are no phone lines to cut and a heavy safe of good quality. Depending on where you live such as states that are 2nd Amendment friendly most people are armed. Your average everyday burglar looking for drug money does not want to risk armed confrontation. As to an individual or group of murderous thug(s) just out to break into someone's home just to kill somebody. How often does that happen? That being said I still carry sidearm's every where I go and have a few on me constantly while I am at home. You never know.


There are times when criminals target the wrong house in regards to drugs or a drug deal gone bad.

The criminals don't care what time of day it is or if anyone is home. If it's a drug deal gone bad, obviously, they want to "talk" to someone about it.

Myself, I worry little about burglars. I'm more concerned about a home invasion, and some douche bags looking for some quick cash and / or valuables. Home invaders are much more prone to use violence against the home's occupants in order to get what they want.

I live in a good community. I've mentioned it in the past, and we just don't see or experience the level of violence / crime that other communities do. And yes, I'm aware that crime can occur anywhere at anytime. No need for any schooling on that point.

Like I said, a home invasion is much more devastating of an experience. I don't carry while home or on my property. I'm not so concerned during the day, but at night, I am more aware of what's going on in our neighborhood.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> Fortunately, I doubt any of us will ever be in THAT situation. Most break in's occur during the daytime and on weekdays when most people are at work. Nothing beats a good alarm system preferably one that operates with a cellular phone so there are no phone lines to cut and a heavy safe of good quality. Depending on where you live such as states that are 2nd Amendment friendly most people are armed. Your average everyday burglar looking for drug money does not want to risk armed confrontation. As to an individual or group of murderous thug(s) just out to break into someone's home just to kill somebody. How often does that happen? That being said I still carry sidearm's every where I go and have a few on me constantly while I am at home. You never know.


Yeah, I think 99% of all break ins are as you said. And if we're dealing with the 1%, well...it's good to be ready as possible.


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## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> There are times when criminals target the wrong house in regards to drugs or a drug deal gone bad.
> 
> The criminals don't care what time of day it is or if anyone is home. If it's a drug deal gone bad, obviously, they want to "talk" to someone about it.
> 
> Myself, I worry little about burglars. I'm more concerned about a home invasion, and some douche bags looking for some quick cash and / or valuables. Home invaders are much more prone to use violence against the home's occupants in order to get what they want.
> 
> I live in a good community. I've mentioned it in the past, and we just don't see or experience the level of violence / crime that other communities do. And yes, I'm aware that crime can occur anywhere at anytime. No need for any schooling on that point.
> 
> Like I said, a home invasion is much more devastating of an experience. I don't carry while home or on my property. I'm not so concerned during the day, but at night, I am more aware of what's going on in our neighborhood.


I carry all the time, especially during the day if I'm at home, specifically b/c of home invasions. That said, I think reports/statistics prove that burglaries are more likely than home invasions, especially depending on your demographics. I used to never carry once I got home. I'd always unchamber the weapon and put it away for safe keeping, but when you read stories of home invasion and being prepared at all times...well, I started carrying it even when I get home.

Of course, there are all sorts of scenarios we could discuss, but I appreciated the specific question of yelling out to an intruder. That isn't something that is often thought of, and it opened a great discussion for ideas to circulate. Thanks to those who stuck to the subject matter as closely as possible!


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## pic

Most break in burglaries or street crimes can be directly or indirectly related to drugs.

I run a rehabilitation program once you've entered my residence (once I'm convinced as indicated in the original post by SouthernBoy). 

You will be cured of your addiction.


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## GCBHM

Post haste!


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## Goldwing

WRONG HOUSE ASSHOLE! short pause, engage target(s). :smt067
GW


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## high pockets

I would call 911 and tell them to send the police and an ambulance, then I would probably just get a mop, to clean up the blood.



He sleeps in the bedroom doorway, and doesn't like uninvited guests.


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## Steve M1911A1

desertman said:


> ...Nothing beats a good alarm system..


My years-ago experience running a very successful urban neighborhood watch organization taught me that alarm systems are not to be relied upon.

First of all, there's the problem of false alarms, some of them triggered by potential burglars who are testing the response to them, and the response time.
Then there's that response-time problem. Burglars get in, take, and get out, long before anybody shows up.
And also there's the problem of the lazy alarm-response guy, who just does a cursory drive-by, and, if everything looks OK from the outside, just drives on to the next call.

If an alarm system is to work, it must be public, loud, and backed-up by a well organized neighborhood watch who are trained to observe and to be good witnesses.
And even then, the alarm system will not keep your house and its contents safe. You'll just have a bunch of really good witnesses.


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## GCBHM

Steve M1911A1 said:


> My years-ago experience running a very successful urban neighborhood watch organization taught me that alarm systems are not to be relied upon.
> 
> First of all, there's the problem of false alarms, some of them triggered by potential burglars who are testing the response to them, and the response time.
> Then there's that response-time problem. Burglars get in, take, and get out, long before anybody shows up.
> And also there's the problem of the lazy alarm-response guy, who just does a cursory drive-by, and, if everything looks OK from the outside, just drives on to the next call.
> 
> If an alarm system is to work, it must be public, loud, and backed-up by a well organized neighborhood watch who are trained to observe and to be good witnesses.
> And even then, the alarm system will not keep your house and its contents safe. You'll just have a bunch of really good witnesses.


Agreed. I think the only real advantage to these type systems is the fire aspect of it. Nothing beats being prepared and a good neighborhood watch system, IMHO.


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## pic

high pockets said:


> I would call 911 and tell them to send the police and an ambulance, then I would probably just get a mop, to clean up the blood
> 
> He sleeps in the bedroom doorway, and doesn't like uninvited guests.


Nice looking dog.

You're probably already aware about the clean up of the blood to quickly,lol.

BUT , Beware!

Certainly your dog might want a lick of the sweet blood. Don't let him. \"doggy:

The felon might have had a drug problem .

Blood may be contagious .

https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_BloodborneFacts/bbfact01.pdf


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