# Different grades of guns?



## Jayghf1978 (Jun 11, 2013)

Was visiting the local gun shop today, and had a rather interesting conversation with the girl behind the counter.

"Just checking out your selections, thank you."

"We could also ordering in for you. We ensure you a better product than you get at other stores."

"I'm sorry, could you elaborate?"

"I can see you are new at this. Guns come in different grades. Grade A guns stay with manufacturers for demonstrations. Local gun shops like us get the grade B guns. The C grades get distributed to national chains like Cabella's and such. Online shops are the worst, they get the worst graded items."

"So most malfunction guns were purchased from national chains?"

"We would never sell anything like that here. We value our customers and treat you like one of us."

That is all I needed to hear. I may be naive and gullible, but not that moronic. For her to treat me like I'm 5 is beyond imaginable.

However, it got me thinking. Chains like Wal-Mart are known to carries less than ideal models for less. It would not completely shock me if some places carry less than idea inventory for less.

As a new firearms enthusiasts, what should like look for when choosing a shop to purchase my guns?? Are they the same?

Thanks for reading.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Interesting...

I know in the ceramic tile industry, that the contractor stores get a better version of the same product you get at Home Depot or Lowe's. More in-spec size and less warp due to the position of the batch during the firing process (edge or middle of belt).

I would think any firearm that's out of spec... enough to make any difference... would be unable to be sold for safety reasons. This may be something the salesperson tells newer customers to convince the buyer to make a purchase from them... not a good business philosophy. To think the best "A grade" guns stay with the manufacturer is ridiculous... so the best anyone can hope for is a "B grade" firearm?

I always purchase from stores... whether dedicated gun shops or big box like Bass or Cabela's. I like to inspect my firearms in person. Only time I had one shipped is when I ordered a custom built .308.. but it was from a gunsmith who is well known in his industry.

When choosing a store, I make sure they allow me to handle the firearm, try the trigger (unless it's a rimfire, and don't mind grabbing one out of the back if I have an issue with the floor model... or simply want an unhandled one.

Would love for someone in the firearm sales industry to chime in on this one.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

That's the goofiest thing I've ever heard, and believe me, I've heard some goofy things over the years. 

It just goes to show, that even gun shops don't know what the hell they're talking about sometimes. 

BTW......All the guns I own, are Grade AA+, cause I paid extra for them. :mrgreen:


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Yes there are different grades of firearms but gunshops get what they believe they can sell. Discount stores sell what they can get the best deal from the manufacture. The big Sports stores get a wider selection to cover what their customers will buy. Wally world is not going to carry a BDL grade they can't sell. My favorite local shop doesn't carry many Limited Edition pistols or Les Baers. One question about the sales clerk was she blonde?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

tony pasley said:


> Yes there are different grades of firearms but gunshops get what they believe they can sell. Discount stores sell what they can get the best deal from the manufacture. The big Sports stores get a wider selection to cover what their customers will buy. Wally world is not going to carry a BDL grade they can't sell. My favorite local shop doesn't carry many Limited Edition pistols or Les Baers. One question about the sales clerk was she blonde?


I might be wrong, but I think the OP was referring to different levels of quality within any same model gun.

For example, a Beretta 92FS or a SIG P226. The manufacturer would keep the best ones for themselves, the 2nd best ones would go to gun shops, the 3rd best ones would go to large chain stores like Gander Mountain or Cabella's, and last and certainly least, the worst quality guns would go to on-line stores.

I've heard that for many years, Wal-Mart gets "seconds" or firearms that don't fully measure up in some way. Doesn't matter the brand or model of firearm. Totally 100% BS.

I know a guy that is a buyer for Wal-Mart for their sporting goods dept. Wal-Mart gets good deals ( lower prices) on firearms because of their nation-wide buying power. They also get deals on exclusive issue firearms that other gun shops won't see. Again, because every manufacturer wants to sell their product via Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart gets to call a lot of the shots and the manufacturer(s) are more than happy to dance with them.


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## Tennjed (Oct 21, 2011)

Gun shops do not get a better grade of guns, however it sounds like that store got a lower grade of employee. i wouldn't go back to that gun store


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

You should have told her pigs now fly non-stop to Rome......... :smt082


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

This could be another wives tale but I was told long ago that when the likes of Marlin and Winchester made their off name guns for Sears and such,like the Ted Williams line,there were cheap changes compared to the company's main line.Most that I recall,being a kid back then,was cheaper stocks.That was then.

I've heard it said that WallyWorld gets guns that are similar,some parts are cheaper or on the end of the acceptable tolerances.I don't know.Their electronics are done this way,the exact same tv from WW has a different and unique model number than the regular model the company sells and the innerds are made with cheaper electronics to keep cost down for what WW said they wanted for a price.With the guns I don't know,there's a hell of a lot more liability issues with guns than TV's.


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

I think the girl is full of crap however anything name brand sold at Walmart is cheaper made junk compared to the real thing. I was looking for a new tv and I had the model number from a Sony at Walmart. I went to the Sony web and was going to compare models and I could not find the model number. I called Sony and was told that the tv model was not listed on their site because it was a cheaper sub standard model made only and sold only at Walmart and Costco. I have noticed a lot of junk at Walmart with a name brand on it. For instance look at any Coleman item at Camper World and compare the same thing at Walmart.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

zeke4351 said:


> I think the girl is full of crap however anything name brand sold at Walmart is cheaper made junk compared to the real thing. I was looking for a new tv and I had the model number from a Sony at Walmart. I went to the Sony web and was going to compare models and I could not find the model number. I called Sony and was told that the tv model was not listed on their site because it was a cheaper sub standard model made only and sold only at Walmart and Costco. I have noticed a lot of junk at Walmart with a name brand on it. For instance look at any Coleman item at Camper World and compare the same thing at Walmart.


Many companies (manufacturers) produce various products for different stores. For the most part, the item is identical, except for a few cosmetic changes that the seller requires. This is done so that a store's item will appear to be different from the same product being sold just down the street at a different store.

The mattress industry is notorious for this. They make the same mattresses with the same internals, but with differing exterior material, so that it will appear different than the same exact mattress being sold across the street by another store.

And, model numbers of items are also different so that the consumer will not be able to compare item for item at different stores. Once again, the mattress industry is notorious for this as well. Same mattress, looks just a bit different, with different model numbers.

Consumer Reports exposed this many years ago. I have a BA Degree in Business Administration. Several of my classes dealt with marketing and this topic was covered many times in various ways.

Bottom line.......is that a company like SONY isn't going to cheapen down one of their products so that Wal-Mart will sell it. What SONY will do, is make some cosmetic changes on the product (so it looks a bit different) and give it a different model number, so that the same SONY tv that Target sells, will be just different enough so that the consumer can't price compare tv for tv between the two stores. The tv's look a bit different and the model numbers aren't the same, so they must not be the same. :mrgreen:

By doing this, it also allows the stores to independently price their products w/o appearing to price them higher than other stores with the same product(s).


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## Tip (Aug 22, 2012)

It also allows stores to "match every price" and "never be undersold".
They have unique model numbers so no other stores have the same model number.
The boasts sound great to the consumer but are completely worthless in the end.


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

paratrooper said:


> Many companies (manufacturers) produce various products for different stores. For the most part, the item is identical, except for a few cosmetic changes that the seller requires. This is done so that a store's item will appear to be different from the same product being sold just down the street at a different store.
> 
> The mattress industry is notorious for this. They make the same mattresses with the same internals, but with differing exterior material, so that it will appear different than the same exact mattress being sold across the street by another store.
> 
> ...


I guess the guy at Sony didn't know what he was talking about when he said " they look alike on the outside but have cheaper components on the inside. They are good tv's but not as good of quality as the others."


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

zeke4351 said:


> I guess the guy at Sony didn't know what he was talking about when he said " they look alike on the outside but have cheaper components on the inside. They are good tv's but not as good of quality as the others."


Several years ago, I had to call Beretta USA to discuss a few issues my dept. was having with some 92FS's. The guy I spoke to at Beretta was in customer service. From what I recall, he had been working for them for a few years.

After I had addressed the issues I called about, we were talking about a few other issues not related to the guns in my dept. Anyways, he went on to say that the Beretta's being made in the USA were much higher in quality than the ones made in Italy. After a brief moment of being shocked, I knew that I was talking to an idiot. Beretta has been making firearms for over 600 years, long before we (USA) even thought of becoming a country. To say that they don't make a higher quality firearm than we produce, was ludicrous.

I'm a *BIG* Beretta fan, and have been for many years. Of all the Beretta's I own (total of 9), all but one is made in Italy. I'll go out of my way to find one and pay extra for it, if it's made in Italy.

SONY may or may not dumb down their products to sell in stores such as Wal-Mart. The 42" big screen that we currently own, was bought at a Wal-Mart. It's going on 4 years old and has been perfect in every way.

Rumors about stores like Wal-Mart selling major brand-name products that are thought to be 2nd rate quality, will most likely go on and on for years to come. That tends to make people suspicious, when they can sell items for less than their competitors.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I can understand inconsistencies with the steel, alloys, carbon content, hardness , quality batches of recycled metals. This is an area that may be different from a gun from one batch to the next.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

zeke4351 said:


> I guess the guy at Sony didn't know what he was talking about when he said " they look alike on the outside but have cheaper components on the inside. They are good tv's but not as good of quality as the others."


This I agree with because if you take your WallyWorld tv to a repairman and there is one of Sony's identicle models there,he will show you the internal difference where the WW models get sub standard boards,chips,whathaveyou.Ask them.WW and Sam's tires are the same way,they are off by enough to justify the cheaper price.There's something to buying in bulk to offset the price from those that buy lesser quantity,but these places place a set price on what they are willing to spend to mark up for a profit at their discount price.That equals somewhere,something is skimped on,plain and simple.

As I said,guns open up a whole new liability issue,I don't believe without proof that this works the same way.I can understand some less than stellar builds being grouped together for the "mass" buys,but they are still basically in spec to avoid any litigation.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> I might be wrong, but I think the OP was referring to different levels of quality within any same model gun.
> 
> For example, a Beretta 92FS or a SIG P226. The manufacturer would keep the best ones for themselves, the 2nd best ones would go to gun shops, the 3rd best ones would go to large chain stores like Gander Mountain or Cabella's, and last and certainly least, the worst quality guns would go to on-line stores.
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Jayghf1978 said:


> Was visiting the local gun shop today, and had a rather interesting conversation with the girl behind the counter.
> 
> "Just checking out your selections, thank you."
> 
> ...


Also many believe
The above is a rumor that has been pushed by gun store owners for years.

The big stores get the best deals because they make huge purchases is more likely


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Years ago, Wal-Mart was selling Ruger 10-22's with the laminated stocks. They had both blue and SS models in stock. Back then, they were priced at about $199.00 or so, if I remember correctly. 

I had a hunch that they were going to go up in value as the years went by. I bought about 7 or 8 of the SS ones. At that time, the gun shops couldn't even order any, because WW had an agreement with Ruger for exclusivity for a few years. Lots of gun shops in my area were pissed about it and not being able to order any themselves. 

So, they (gun shops) began a negative campaign, bad-mouthing WW and the rifles in question, claiming that they were seconds and of lower quality. It was about 2-3 yrs. before the same rifles made it into gun shops, and the prices were much higher than WW was selling them for. Oddly enough, once they were in the gun shops, the quality of the rifles had become excellent and no longer a second class production.

By the way, I still have three of them, still NIB. :mrgreen:


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Years ago, Wal-Mart was selling Ruger 10-22's with the laminated stocks. They had both blue and SS models in stock. Back then, they were priced at about $199.00 or so, if I remember correctly.
> 
> I had a hunch that they were going to go up in value as the years went by. I bought about 7 or 8 of the SS ones. At that time, the gun shops couldn't even order any, because WW had an agreement with Ruger for exclusivity for a few years. Lots of gun shops in my area were pissed about it and not being able to order any themselves.
> 
> ...


sold !!! , I'll be right there.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Years ago, Wal-Mart was selling Ruger 10-22's with the laminated stocks. They had both blue and SS models in stock. Back then, they were priced at about $199.00 or so, if I remember correctly.
> 
> I had a hunch that they were going to go up in value as the years went by. I bought about 7 or 8 of the SS ones. At that time, the gun shops couldn't even order any, because WW had an agreement with Ruger for exclusivity for a few years. Lots of gun shops in my area were pissed about it and not being able to order any themselves.
> 
> ...


btw, how come you are a "Senior Member" and I am not? I joined in 2009.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Because he's older?



...or because he has more posts. Maybe once you hit a thousand posts you get "senior" status.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

TAPnRACK said:


> Because he's older?
> 
> ...or because he has more posts. Maybe once you hit a thousand posts you get "senior" status.


well your probably right, but he talks about cats , chainsaws stihl, weed wackers, trucks, those posts should not be included. I think he is just trying to run the score up,lol.:smt033


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> btw, how come you are a "Senior Member" and I am not? I joined in 2009.


Cause I'm better looking. :mrgreen:

BTW.....I'm just about to head out the door, as I'm going for a 300 mile motorcycle ride. The weather is perfect, I have some $$'s in my wallet, and my head could use some airing out. Riding always does that for me, and it's much cheaper than seeing a shrink. :smt033


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Enjoy your ride & be safe.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TAPnRACK said:


> Enjoy your ride & be safe.


Ended up putting in about 350 miles. Rode to Kingman, AZ., via old Route 66. Traffic was very light and no cops anywhere. I got to Kingman and decided to have lunch at Mickey D's. There was a very high-end exotic sports car club having a meet there. There was about 18 or so cars, such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and a McLaren I think. I can't give you any model numbers or years of manufacture, as I don't know enough about them. All I know, is that there was about $3M worth of cars parked side by side.

On the way back, I hooked up with three other BMW riders from WA. state. Not sure where they were headed, but between the four of us, we were moving right along. I won't go into any details, so as to protect the guilty. Let's just say, we were pushing the envelope and triple digits. :smt119


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

WalMart has over 4,000 stores. Let's say they order 5 10-22s for each store. Let's see, that's an order for 20,000 rifles. Now let's look at your LGS. Your LGS orders 5 10-22s for his store. Now give it some serious thought and who do you think is going to get a better price? 

Who in their right mind thinks Ruger looks at 20,005 rifles and picks out the 5 best to send to your LGS? Get real!!!


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Ended up putting in about 350 miles. Rode to Kingman, AZ., via old Route 66. Traffic was very light and no cops anywhere. I got to Kingman and decided to have lunch at Mickey D's. There was a very high-end exotic sports car club having a meet there. There was about 18 or so cars, such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche and a McLaren I think. I can't give you any model numbers or years of manufacture, as I don't know enough about them. All I know, is that there was about $3M worth of cars parked side by side.
> 
> On the way back, I hooked up with three other BMW riders from WA. state. Not sure where they were headed, but between the four of us, we were moving right along. I won't go into any details, so as to protect the guilty. Let's just say, we were pushing the envelope and triple digits. :smt119


Very nice!
You were riding a BMW also?
Those guys from Washington state ,did any of them have a beard or a pocket imprint of a colt hammerless. Or maybe you just didn't look.

btw who had the faster bike?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

high pockets said:


> WalMart has over 4,000 stores. Let's say they order 5 10-22s for each store. Let's see, that's an order for 20,000 rifles. Now let's look at your LGS. Your LGS orders 5 10-22s for his store. Now give it some serious thought and who do you think is going to get a better price?
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks Ruger looks at 20,005 rifles and picks out the 5 best to send to your LGS? Get real!!!


your words make sense to me


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> Very nice!
> You were riding a BMW also?
> Those guys from Washington state ,did any of them have a beard or a pocket imprint of a colt hammerless. Or maybe you just didn't look.
> 
> btw who had the faster bike?


Yeah, I have a 2003 BMW R1150RT. I was taking a break (to rest my right knee) in a very small town named Peach Springs. The three riders came in to town and stopped to talk to one another for a few minutes. Since they were heading my way, I decided to tag along with them. Never spoke a word to them, just a nod of my head and we were off.

The BMW's they were riding were newer than mine and were the GS models, 1200cc's, and were the kind of bike that was a little off-road capable as well as on-road. Nice bikes to be sure. Anyways, they liked to cruise right at about 90 or so. I felt right at home. :mrgreen:

Their bikes looked like these: http://www.way2speed.com/2012/10/2013-new-bmw-r-1200-gs.html#axzz2gIYHTuj9


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Yeah, I have a 2003 BMW R1150RT. I was taking a break (to rest my right knee) in a very small town named Peach Springs. The three riders came in to town and stopped to talk to one another for a few minutes. Since they were heading my way, I decided to tag along with them. Never spoke a word to them, just a nod of my head and we were off.
> 
> The BMW's they were riding were newer than mine and were the GS models, 1200cc's, and were the kind of bike that was a little off-road capable as well as on-road. Nice bikes to be sure. Anyways, they liked to cruise right at about 90 or so. I felt right at home. :mrgreen:
> 
> Their bikes looked like these: 2013 NEW BMW R 1200 GS - Grease n Gasoline


those are nice. they look very fast and comfortable.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> those are nice. they look very fast and comfortable.


They aren't nearly as fast as some of the Japanese super bikes, or some of the new Ducati's. I had a 2003 Kawasaki ZRX1200R. I sold it about a year ago, and although it was only 50cc bigger than my BMW, it made half again the hp. It was a four cylinder, after-market carb jet kit, full performance exhaust system and a few other horse-power add-ons.

0-60 in 3 seconds and a top speed in the area of 165. It was soooo fast, that some times, you didn't really have time to prepare for the rush once you got on the gas. I got to the point that I didn't want to try and keep up maintenance on two bikes. Just too expensive and time consuming.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> They aren't nearly as fast as some of the Japanese super bikes, or some of the new Ducati's. I had a 2003 Kawasaki ZRX1200R. I sold it about a year ago, and although it was only 50cc bigger than my BMW, it made half again the hp. It was a four cylinder, after-market carb jet kit, full performance exhaust system and a few other horse-power add-ons.
> 
> 0-60 in 3 seconds and a top speed in the area of 165. It was soooo fast, that some times, you didn't really have time to prepare for the rush once you got on the gas. I got to the point that I didn't want to try and keep up maintenance on two bikes. Just too expensive and time consuming.


Do you think the BMW compares with the Japanese bikes when it comes to Quality/reliability . I owned Japanese Bikes, but admired the BMW . Didn't much care about the Harley's. The Harley's had some quality issues, AMF bought them out at one time. Then sold them. I like Harley's but they had reliability issues in the past.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> Do you think the BMW compares with the Japanese bikes when it comes to Quality/reliability . I owned Japanese Bikes, but admired the BMW . Didn't much care about the Harley's. The Harley's had some quality issues, AMF bought them out at one time. Then sold them. I like Harley's but they had reliability issues in the past.


Bottom line? I've always believed that the Japanese make the best motorcycles in the world, be it on-road or off-road. Yes, there are some nice (good) European bikes, but they tend to be fussy or finicky. They do fill a niche, but lack when it comes to overall usefulness and application.

My present BMW is my 1st and last BMW. I was always curious about them, and knew that some day I'd own one. That day came back in Nov. of 2002. At the time, the dealer had the one I wanted in stock, and BMW was having a 0.9% APR program.

I like the bike, but I'm not in love with it. European bikes have a mindset all their own, as well as a personality. It's kind of hard to explain, but they ride and run differently. I turn 59 next month, and I don't anticipate buying another bike in the future. Mine only has a little over 30K on the clock, so it's just now beginning to get broken-in.

I like that it's not liquid cooled. No radiator or leaks to worry about. The engine is air / oil cooled, as it has two high volume oil pumps, one for lubrication and one for internal cooling. I like having shaft-drive, but then again, it does act differently than a chain drive does. More parts, more weight, and things to worry about over a chain drive.

It does handle well, and the Europeans do seem to have a distinct advantage over the Japanese, when it comes to handling and suspension. The Germans are notorious for close tolerances when it comes to manufacturing. You can see that when you nose around and closely inspect the bike. It is well-made.

Of all the road bikes I've ever had, the one that got the most attention from bikers and non-bikers, was a 1982 Honda CBX SuperSport that I had. Six cylinders, air cooled, six carbs, and a gorgeous Mother of Pearl white factory paint job. No matter where I stopped or why, I always got questions about it. It was a big, long, tall bike, and it fit me very well. There was a story on one that a guy bought to drag race with it. He made some major engine / frame / etc. mods and installed a super-charger on it. It ended up making 365 hp. The only thing that still resembled a stock CBX on the bike, was the engine.

But to answer your question about quality, the Japanese have made great strides in quality and technology in their bikes. So much so, that they lead the world in m/c sales. A lot of their racing technology from Formula race cars trickle down to their motorcycles.

I've never had any use for Harley Davidson. All show and no go. Chrome doesn't improve handling, hp, or performance. In this day and age, all that it does is pretty much drive up price.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I do remember the six cylinder that came out. I understand exactly what you're saying.

I did own about four JAP bikes. The only issue I ever had was with the shaft drive on my 82 Yamaha 1100 maxim. I kept stripping out second gear in the tranny. I was hard with the bike off the line. The shafts were kinda new back then


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

The cheapest wood and crappiest bluing I've ever seen on a gun I (repeatedly) saw at Wal-Mart. I think Winchester's formerly excellent 9422's and 9422M's went to hell on an express train after Wal-Mart began selling their own versions of these once superlatively built rifles. (I have two of the original, first production models; the last time I saw bluing, checkering, and nicely figured walnut like these Winchesters it was displayed on my old Sako Finnbear; and my beautiful 9422's are, 'dime busters', too.)










The above Winchester is a later, 'XTR' grade. It's finished with lacquer. Mine are oil finished, hand-rubbed walnut! A few years ago I thought I'd sell one; but when the callers on the other end of the phone heard the price they, all, thought I was crazy. Only one guy actually came to the house to look at the gun; and when he saw it, he whistled! He reached for his wallet, and offered me what he had inside; but it wasn't anywhere near enough. The fellow liked my 9422 so much that he started asking me to, 'be a good guy' and sell him the gun for what he could afford to spend; but, I wasn't in the mood to, 'be a good guy' (Read, 'stupid').

I am, also, 100% certain that one of the major firearm distributors in our area definitely, 'grades' his inventory; and sells any problems he might have to those gun shops where he knows price is often an issue. Consequently, I bought my second Glock from Gander Mountain; it WAS defective in several different respects like the front sight repeatedly falling off; but I blame this on Smyrna's spotty customer service; and, right from Glock, Inc. it had a defective trigger bar; but, again, I can't blame Gander Mountain because, at the time, Glock was selling defective trigger bars to everyone who bought this particular pistol.

Previously I had tried to buy my second Glock from a well-known gun discounter in our area. It was a mistake! When the guy handed me my, 'special order' pistol (He didn't have one in stock.) it had a very noticeable chip out of the muzzle's crown. The price was right; so I said to him, '_How about getting me another one?_' The boss looked at the Glock, then up at me, and said, '_As far as I can tell that Glock is, 'within spec._' (Yeah, he got it from THAT distributor!) I walked out of that, 'firearm whorehouse', and never went back again.

After looking through numerous local gun shops, and not finding anything but a lot of poorly made Ruger revolvers, I went to the largest (and most expensive) gun store in the county. There it was! The first perfectly built SP-101 I was able to find. So, I paid the, 'big gun store' price, and went home happy. I, also, made a mental note that the same firearms distributor was actively supplying all of the gun shops I'd been to.

There's a lot of hanky-panky in the gun business. I've seen factory refurbished H&K, P-7's advertised for sale as being, 'new' for the ridiculous price of $589.00. I phoned the shop to verify that these pistols were new, was assured that they were, jumped in my truck, and raced 45 miles in order to buy a pair. When I got there the owner handed me a P-7 with a German police insignia on the slide! When I pointed out to him that the gun wasn't, 'new'; and he'd brought me over there on a, 'wild goose chase' he looked at me with his angry, 'dead' eyes and replied, '_It's new to some people!_'

So, who's the biggest all around offender in selling crap guns that sometimes work, and other times don't? Some people aren't going to like this; but, as far as I'm concerned Glock, GmbH/Inc. is way out ahead of the competition! I don't think there's another gun manufacturer in America who's foisted more, 'gun junk' on the American public. (I base this conclusion on reading Glock Talk's Internet Forum for more than eleven years.) Once, when I asked a friendly gun shop owner, 'How' Glock was repeatedly able to get away with marketing their poorly developed guns and numerous mechanical problems' to Americans, his reply was, '_Price, really superior advertising, huge police discounts, and an enthusiastic under 30 audience that believes all the gung-ho folderol on the Internet._'

Personally, I don't think this sales girl is, 'full of crap'; instead she needs to redefine her terms, get her facts straight, and restate her argument in a more cogent and plausible manner. She's NOT all wrong; she just needs to work on her sale's presentation and restate her case for doing business with her company in more realistic and believable terms. If I were thinking about buying a gun from her, I'd want to speak with her boss in order to see if HE were, also, will to make a similar 100% satisfaction guarantee?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I'd like to know, once and for all, if all this talk about firearms being 2nd's, 3rd's or whatever, is true or not. I really find it hard to believe that a firearms manufacturer would go ahead and send out a product with their name on it, to be sold no matter the venue, if it wasn't 100% up to standards, for a variety of reasons. 

I can see (and understand) a firearms manufacturer producing a "plain jane" model of a firearm to meet the marketing needs of a particular chain of retail stores. I can also understand a firearms manufacturer producing a high-end model of a firearm for yet another store to meet a higher degree of consumer tastes. 

All that I can go by, is my own experience with purchasing firearms at a local dedicated firearms dealer, or a retailer such as Wal-Mart. I've never purchased a firearm that I thought to be a "2nd" in nature, or one that was so poorly constructed and/or finished, that it made me suspicious as to it's initial quality and history.


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## Jayghf1978 (Jun 11, 2013)

Speaking with a supplier for the local gun shops, I have the following to share.

For the most part paraphrasing but nonetheless true and accurate: "Big stores like Wal-Mart and Cabella's dictate and influence the market with their presence. Most manufactures, most specifically riffles, are often made to tailor their needs and asking price. The ones made for those stores are designed to be more affordable than the average market, using less than ideal but effective parts. In order to meet the demands of such big chains and their desire to sell for less, the gun makers will tailor their models to fit the shelves of these national chains. These guns although slightly less in quality, are built to accomplish the same results. The manufactues will acknowledge these gun tailor made for the big chains, but claim they are made with equal expectations. Some of those gun were made cheaper due to less the ideal finishes and other cosmetic reasons, but others were made using less than quality parts. He went on to say Glock is one of a few that does not cave in to these chains, built and sold with intent for all stores.

Not sure why this has not been a common knowledge for all firearm enthusiasts, but this message shall be cemented into our minds forever.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> I'd like to know, once and for all, if all this talk about firearms being 2nd's, 3rd's or whatever, is true or not. I really find it hard to believe that a firearms manufacturer would go ahead and send out a product with their name on it, to be sold no matter the venue, if it wasn't 100% up to standards, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> I can see (and understand) a firearms manufacturer producing a "plain jane" model of a firearm to meet the marketing needs of a particular chain of retail stores. I can also understand a firearms manufacturer producing a high-end model of a firearm for yet another store to meet a higher degree of consumer tastes.
> 
> All that I can go by, is my own experience with purchasing firearms at a local dedicated firearms dealer, or a retailer such as Wal-Mart. I've never purchased a firearm that I thought to be a "2nd" in nature, or one that was so poorly constructed and/or finished, that it made me suspicious as to it's initial quality and history.


OK, I'll give you one example I know about: I believe this information has been generally known for, at least, several years now. Glock GmbH/Inc. gets into an argument with a large police agency like, say, the Portland Police Bureau, the Saint Louis, MO Police Department, or the Illinois State Police (There are others, as well.) An agency like one of those listed above is, for whatever reason(s), highly dissatisfied with the performance of whatever Glock model they are using; and expects Glock to take back their marginally performing pistols and give them either a credit, or a Glock that works (like, say, the G-17).

Glock, GmbH/Inc. hems, haws, finagles, and finally agrees to swap a whole bunch of whatever generation G-19's, or whatever batch of G-22's, and replace them with another Glock product. So, the take back and the replacement are completed and, then, what happens? Several months later a whole bunch of, 'factory refurbished' Model 19's, or Model 22's, or Model 21's suddenly begin turning up at gun shows and FFL vendors all over the United States. As most longtime board members over at Glock Talk know: If this has happened once, it has happened, at least, a half dozen times during the past 20 years. (I'm not telling you anything, here, that hasn't been discussed many times before on various internet gun forums.)

Would you like another example? How about the fact that Strum-Ruger, Inc. does NOT have a quality control department, and does not employ quality control inspectors IN THE CONVENTIONAL SENSE of these terms. Why? I've read about and been told that it's far more profitable for Strum-Ruger to take back any number of guns each year (and to work to the customer's complete satisfaction) than it is for them to carry the expense of a - large and, of necessity, diversified - quality control department; or this is, at least, what I have repeatedly read about Strum-Ruger; and it, also, corresponds closely with my own gun buying experiences.

(Perhaps I should tell you that I am, presently, a big fan of S-R revolvers, and customer service. Strum-Ruger is, in my opinion, a great gun manufacturer to deal with; it's just that I, too, have had to take advantage of their outstanding customer service.)

TMF: Sturm Ruger Concerns / Sturm, Ruger & Company 
Sturm, Ruger & Co. Opinions ... - The Firing Line Forums (In particular Posts #5, #9, #11, & #12)

There's one other example I can think of, too: How about the current situation with Steyr's different generations of, 'M' series pistols! It's being reported on the Internet, right now, that the current pistols Steyr has for sale are built from an amalgamation of parts from several generations of, 'M' series pistols; AND the current slides, sights, and part numbers reflect this fact. (Which is NOT to say that Steyr makes, 'bad pistols'; I don't think that they do. It's just that in recent years Steyr pistols have had their problems; and it's going to take the new American distribution arm awhile to, 'get their act together'.)

Gun Review: Steyr M9A1 | The Truth About Guns

Hope this helps you out.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Glock Doctor said:


> OK, I'll give you one example I know about: I believe this information has been generally known for, at least, several years now. Glock GmbH/Inc. gets into an argument with a large police agency like, say, the Portland Police Bureau, the Saint Louis, MO Police Department, or the Illinois State Police (There are others, as well.) An agency like one of those listed above is, for whatever reason(s), highly dissatisfied with the performance of whatever Glock model they are using; and expects Glock to take back their marginally performing pistols and give them either a credit, or a Glock that works (like, say, the G-17).
> 
> Glock, GmbH/Inc. hems, haws, finagles, and finally agrees to swap a whole bunch of whatever generation G-19's, or whatever batch of G-22's, and replace them with another Glock product. So, the take back and the replacement are completed and, then, what happens? Several months later a whole bunch of, 'factory refurbished' Model 19's, or Model 22's, or Model 21's suddenly begin turning up at gun shows and FFL vendors all over the United States. As most longtime board members over at Glock Talk know: If this has happened once, it has happened, at least, a half dozen times during the past 20 years. (I'm not telling you anything, here, that hasn't been discussed many times before on various internet gun forums.)
> 
> ...


Interesting reading. Food for thought, perhaps.

As far as Ruger goes, I've never, ever thought of them as a high-quality firearms manufacturer. Innovative and cost-effective, yes. I have my fair share of some 10/22's, MKII's, and a Mini-14. I'd never carry a Ruger for self-defense though.

I can't comment on the Glock issue, as I wasn't aware of it, but do know that there are plenty of LE agencies / depts. that use them. I myself, have a 3rd. generation Glock 21C. No issues or problems since I've had it.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> Interesting reading. Food for thought, perhaps.
> 
> As far as Ruger goes, I've never, ever thought of them as a high-quality firearms manufacturer. Innovative and cost-effective, yes. I have my fair share of some 10/22's, MKII's, and a Mini-14. I'd never carry a Ruger for self-defense though.


OK, I've never fired a Mini-14 that I considered to be truly accurate. A LOT of the people I shoot with are using customized MKIII's. I've fired a few; and, in all honesty, the ones I've used have rivaled my own superlative S&W Model 41. I do, on occasion, 'pilfer' my wife's SP-101. The action has been improved from the rough factory standard; and I've got to say that it shoots quite well; (in either of our hands) and I like the one we have; but, yes, it did take two tries, and a, 'heart-to-heart' talk with Ruger's Steve Saneti before I finally found an SP-101 that was genuinely well put together.



> I can't comment on the Glock issue, as I wasn't aware of it, but do know that there are plenty of LE agencies / depts. that use them. I myself, have a 3rd. generation Glock 21C. No issues or problems since I've had it.


Over the past decade I've encountered numerous police agencies who were very dissatisfied with their Glocks; i.e.: The Portland Police Bureau, The Georgia State Patrol, (Both of whom filed suit against Glock, Inc.) The Illinois State Police, and the Kansas City, (MO?) Police Department. Of course Glock Inc.'s problems with both the Nassau County Police, and the New York City Police Department are well known and undeniable. In more than a decade of reading Glock Talk I'd like to have $50.00 (the present day equivalent of our original 1950's dollar!) for every police officer who has posted some sort of negative comment about not wanting, or not trusting his issued Glock.

Please don't think that I'm, 'Glock bashing'. I assure you I'm not. In fact I carry one of several Glocks with me everyday, and trust my life to each of them.

Which is not to say that when I purchased each of these Glocks it was a, 'perfect' flawlessly operating pistol. NONE of them were that; and ALL of them have, now, been extensively reworked by both myself and several other gunsmiths - NOT, any of these factory classroom, '3 day wonders' who like to call themselves, 'Glock armorers'. Two of the (real) gunsmiths who repaired and tuned my Glocks have been repairing firearms for more than three decades; and, trust me, their skill and services were necessary in order to turn the factory, 'blocks of plastic' I purchased into genuinely trustworthy CQB pistols!

The, 'hard truth' - the reality that many internet, 'Glockophiles' don't want to face - is that some Glock models work, and some model lines are (or have been) riddled with problems. In the particular case of Glock's Model 36 (No, I don't care if YOUR G-36 has been flawless!) it took Smyrna more than 2 years to finally get their G-36 problems straightened out. All of which causes me to wonder what has happened to all those plastic pistols that have never worked well since the day they were purchased?

This is the principal reason, 'Why' I do not, and would not, purchase any used Glock with which I am not intimately familiar and have repeatedly fired; (I'm saying that I don't buy used Glocks!) and, yes, I've been on internet gun forums long enough to know that there are respondents out there who HAVE bought used Glocks and never had any kind of a problem - That's the Internet; but it's, also, not the point to anything I've said, here.)


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Glock Doctor said:


> OK, I've never fired a Mini-14 that I considered to be truly accurate. A LOT of the people I shoot with are using customized MKIII's. I've fired a few; and, in all honesty, the ones I've used have rivaled my own superlative S&W Model 41. I do, on occasion, 'pilfer' my wife's SP-101. The action has been improved from the rough factory standard; and I've got to say that it shoots quite well; (in either of our hands) and I like the one we have; but, yes, it did take two tries, and a, 'heart-to-heart' talk with Ruger's Steve Saneti before I finally found an SP-101 that was genuinely well put together.
> 
> Over the past decade I've encountered numerous police agencies who were very dissatisfied with their Glocks; i.e.: The Portland Police Bureau, The Georgia State Patrol, (Both of whom filed suit against Glock, Inc.) The Illinois State Police, and the Kansas City, (MO?) Police Department. Of course Glock Inc.'s problems with both the Nassau County Police, and the New York City Police Department are well known and undeniable. In more than a decade of reading Glock Talk I'd like to have $50.00 (the present day equivalent of our original 1950's dollar!) for every police officer who has posted some sort of negative comment about not wanting, or not trusting his issued Glock.
> 
> ...


I have heard that you should never use re-loads in *ANY* Glock. Feeding problems obviously.

When it comes to operational / functionality issues, it always tends to be with semi-autos. It could be due to the wrong kind / type / form of ammo (pick one), limp-wristing, lubrication issues, and/or dirt / debris situations.

Some people simply should not be in possession of a semi-auto, let alone try to use one. And.....there are some people that should not be in possession of any firearm.......period. But, that's a whole nother subject.

And.....I've heard of stories of people buying a handgun, only to completely re-do it in some way or another, believing that it wasn't satisfactory in the manner in which it came from the factory. Make of that what you will.


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## hartgk01 (Jan 8, 2012)

*Bulk purchases*



high pockets said:


> WalMart has over 4,000 stores. Let's say they order 5 10-22s for each store. Let's see, that's an order for 20,000 rifles. Now let's look at your LGS. Your LGS orders 5 10-22s for his store. Now give it some serious thought and who do you think is going to get a better price?
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks Ruger looks at 20,005 rifles and picks out the 5 best to send to your LGS? Get real!!!


Thank goodness someone gets it.


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## KampfJaeger (Sep 25, 2013)




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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

:snipe:


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

KampfJaeger said:


>


Dude,that's just too funny!

I believe Jay in post 37,those of us old enough to remember Sears and Monkey Wards selling rifles can relate to it.That Marlin or Winchester made Ted Williamd brand was not the same.If you look up the values in blue books,you will see that they are much lower priced than the real McCoy.The reason is the quality is lower so a profit can be made at discount pricing by both the manufacturer and vendor.I'm not saying the guns were crap,they weren't,they just weren't built to the original specs.

WallyWorld does the exact same thingwith electronics and other things.Take your WW Sony tv to a repair shop and compare it to Sony's exact same model they sold.The model number is different so they can differentiate the grades and you will find sub spec boards and chips in it.Tires are the same way there and Sams.Firestone may make it but it has a different name,cheaper price,and it's size is different than Firestone's even though the size says the same.I have seen this with tires because it's a real PITA when a wrecked vehicle needs a tire replaced with these oddballs.

I agree with what High Pockets says,they don't hand pick them because they are separated.Today they don't change the names like they did years ago with the Ted Williams,etc. line of guns,I believe what they do now is put "blems" to the side and do runs of cheap stocks,finishes,cheaper part substitutions and build that lot for the specific vendor.Lew Horton and TALO does it all the time but it isn't in the "generic" category.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

rex said:


> Dude,that's just too funny!
> 
> I believe Jay in post 37,those of us old enough to remember Sears and Monkey Wards selling rifles can relate to it.That Marlin or Winchester made Ted Williamd brand was not the same.If you look up the values in blue books,you will see that they are much lower priced than the real McCoy.The reason is the quality is lower so a profit can be made at discount pricing by both the manufacturer and vendor.I'm not saying the guns were crap,they weren't,they just weren't built to the original specs.
> 
> ...


I just received a stamped ,marked on the barrel ,Sears Roebuck from my father inlaw.. It's not the Ted Williams , but I am pretty sure it's a marlin, like you said the resale value is very low.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> I've heard of stories of people buying a handgun, only to completely re-do it in some way or another, believing that it wasn't satisfactory in the manner in which it came from the factory. Make of that what you will.


:smt017 I don't make anything out of it! As long as your EDC goes, 'Bang!' every time you pull the trigger you're, 'golden' no matter what you use. This said: I'd like to have $100 dollars for every brand new, factory stock, Glock that wouldn't go, 'Bang!' - or, at least, wouldn't go, 'Bang!' consistently - in a new owner's hands. Heck, let's face facts, I'd pick up all those nice green hundred dollar bills and become a multimillionaire! (Like it or not, THAT is the historical truth!) :smt023


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Glock Doctor said:


> :smt017 I don't make anything out of it! As long as your EDC goes, 'Bang!' every time you pull the trigger you're, 'golden' no matter what you use. This said: I'd like to have $100 dollars for every brand new, factory stock, Glock that wouldn't go, 'Bang!' - or, at least, wouldn't go, 'Bang!' consistently - in a new owner's hands. Heck, let's face facts, I'd pick up all those nice green hundred dollar bills and become a multimillionaire! (Like it or not, THAT is the historical truth!) :smt023


That's funny, you are the only Glock owner who *freely* admits they are not perfect .lol


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

:mrgreen: I am! I am! (Truthfully, it does seem like it at times, though.) Maybe it's because, one time when I was just getting started with Glock pistols, a brand new Glock Model G-21 with a poorly manufactured trigger bar almost exploded in my face! 

If it hadn't been for the conscious shooter standing next to me on the line, I would have kept on firing horribly belled Hydra-Shok cartridges until one finally exploded in my face! I don't know who that guy was; but, if he hadn't tapped me on the shoulder, handed me a few of my badly bulged ejected cases, and told me to STOP, I'm certain things would have turned out very poorly for me that day. 

(This at a time when a Secret Service Agent in Manhattan had his G-21 blow up in his face, damage his eyesight, and force his early retirement from the Service.) Quite frankly I consider myself to be very lucky to have survived two defective G-21's in a row without violent mishap - Very lucky!


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

pic said:


> I just received a stamped ,marked on the barrel ,Sears Roebuck from my father inlaw.. It's not the Ted Williams , but I am pretty sure it's a marlin, like you said the resale value is very low.


If it looks like a Marlin it is,a bolt or semi auto that kind of copies the 10/22?I think that auto was the model 60 from Marlin if the memory still works.Ted Williams may have been the brand from Monkey,I mean Montgomery Wards.That I can't remember or some of the other names because we're going back 40 years.I don't know if Remington ever made these type of runs but Marlin,Winchester and I believe Savage all made guns under their generic names.I had a Blue Book of values that listed all of them but it disappeared and I haven't bought another since.I found Flayderman's about the best but they could be off the mark at times.Now I just research around to see what the market is bringing and find a pattern for condition and pricing.

If it's in good shape and sound,I'd shoot it.Just check the chamber for peening from the firing pin if they "dropped the hammer" on an empty chamber.If it is,any smith that plays with 22s should have a chamber iron to clean it up.


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