# The Judge



## DjSaneR

Toying with the idea of purchasing the Judge for in-car protection. I saw the demo on the Taurus site and it looks interesting. Those that have it can you chime in an give your overall opinion? Likes/Dislikes.

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## Charlie

They are kinda' unique and certainly would fend off bad guys as long as the shooter did his thing. I'd sure not like one going off inside a vehicle if I could help it and especially if I was shooting through a window! That's got to be a hell of a noise! Pellets may be bouncing around a little also! I generally like the gun but I'd think it might be more suited to woods walking or charming snakes. Just my $.02.


----------



## Mike Barham

My personal opinion is that it's a stupid gimmick gun, at least for self-defense against people. We discussed it pretty extensively here: http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=12561&highlight=taurus+judge.


----------



## DjSaneR

Mike Barham said:


> My personal opinion is that it's a stupid gimmick gun, at least for self-defense against people. We discussed it pretty extensively here: http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=12561&highlight=taurus+judge.


Thanks, Mike


----------



## DjSaneR

Charlie said:


> I'd sure not like one going off inside a vehicle if I could help it and especially if I was shooting through a window! That's got to be a hell of a noise! Pellets may be bouncing around a little also!


Good point


----------



## Wyatt

+1 what Mike said. That video sucked me in too with those two huge holes in the sillouette, but apparently the penetration, at least of the .410 shot, is severely lacking. So unless you are being attacked by a cardboard BG like the guy in the video there are probably better alternatives.


----------



## Todd

Mike Barham said:


> My personal opinion is that it's a stupid gimmick gun, at least for self-defense against people.


Now Mike, don't hold back how you really feel. :mrgreen:

I don't think I'd get one myself. There are many other guns out there that can get the job done better.


----------



## Mike Barham

Todd said:


> Now Mike, don't hold back how you really feel. :mrgreen:


Heh heh. I've never been good at keeping opinions to myself, probably to my detriment.

I just got May's _American Rifleman_, and the Judge won Handgun of the Year. Then again, Taurus has a full-page ad running on page 11, opposite Wayne LaPierre's column. Expensive ad space. :mrgreen:


----------



## submoa

I like the following description better.

I see this as an ideal weapon to keep on the car seat to quickly resolve an attempted car-jacking. When a punk jerks the car door open, a face full of number four shot should rapidly dissuade the social misfit from wanting anything to do with your car, and should also render him unable to pass the eye exam for a driver’s license for the rest of his miserable life. If this seems cruel, so be it. If someone sneaks into a parking lot and hot-wires a car, that is one thing, but if he tries to forcibly take an occupied vehicle at a traffic light, he can learn to read Braille in prison as far as I’m concerned.


----------



## Mike Barham

Unless he's wearing Oakleys. Then you're screwed. :mrgreen:


----------



## submoa

Mike Barham said:


> Unless he's wearing Oakleys. Then you're screwed. :mrgreen:


Those Oakleys are so.... tactical!


----------



## hideit

but seriously
if you had a judge then what would your shot or buckshot number be?


----------



## Capt Cook

All weapons have their pros & cons.

I like the Judge myself for several reasons. It can fire several different loads of ammunition.
The .45LC has great stopping power & with a 3" cylinder & a 4" barrel it's more like firing out of a 5" barrel.
The .410 comes in several different loads that would work great for defensive & hunting rounds. You can use 2 1/2" OO or OOO buckshot as well a 3" buckshots. You might also be able to fire slugs but I'm not sure about that myself. The #4 shot would really put a hurting on anybody it hits. If you don't think so then just let somebody hit you with 40 or so BB's at high velocity & we'll see just how fast you hit the ground screaming!! It will definitely penetrate even heavy clothing & do some nasty damage.
The #5 shot & higher may not kill a person per see but it will most likely incapacitate them to the point that they will be out of the fight & will give a pretty good pattern even at short range.

With the .410 shot you just point & shoot. If you miss a little your still going to at least hit an arm, shoulder or the face & the BOOM from that gun will scare the piss out of most any attacker!!

If all else fails you can club them to death with it :smt075


----------



## Big Jim

*Judge Owner*

I own a Judge Ultralight W/ 3" barrel I like it alot but the 410 shells get quite hot and I cant drop them untill the gun cools down. Someone said that Winchsters won't do that but have not tried them yet. My range will only let me shoot slugs so I have not tried buckshoot. The gun feels real nice. If I could solve the 410 problem I would be very pleased.


----------



## Dsig1

Saw my first one up close at my range this week. The guy who brought it, obviously saw the video. His first round of #4 shot from about 6 yards took out the head of his silhouette and added an array of spatter through my shoot and see which was hung about 4 feet down the line from his target. Looked like a lot of spray with little penetration. He also shot 45 LC and 410 slugs as well. To my surprise, the Long Colts were nicely accurate at 15 yards, as were the slugs (I didn't get the brand but he said they were rifled slugs). We checked the target holes and there weren't any signs of the slugs tumbling at all. 

All things being equal, this gun may have its uses and it has a wealth of versatility, but being limited to 5 shots with the potential of some of those shots not having penetration capability, it's not for me in a defensive situation.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

"Taking the head off" of a cardboard target is not in any way related to the real-world requirement of effectively stopping a bad guy who is intent upon doing some damage to you.
Birdshot from a Judge may blind someone who isn't wearing glasses, if you're aiming in exactly the right place, but that won't be enough to decisively stop a fight.
Buckshot from a Judge will lack penetration and won't deliver enough force to stop a fight, no matter where the buckshot strikes.
Slugs from a Judge have less power and penetration than do bullets from .45 "Long" Colt cartridges.
If you're going to be shooting .45 "Long" Colt cartridges, why not get yourself a dedicated .45 "Long" Colt revolver in the first place?
Why bother with the Judge?

(If I remember correctly, Jeff Cooper's line was, "It's a solution looking for a problem.")


----------



## Big Jim

Try the judge with rifle slugs.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Big Jim said:


> Try the judge with rifle slugs.


To quote myself (see below): Slugs from a Judge have less power and penetration than do bullets from .45 "Long" Colt cartridges.
If you're going to be shooting .45 "Long" Colt cartridges, why not get yourself a dedicated .45 "Long" Colt revolver in the first place?
Why bother with the Judge?


----------



## sosborne

*Amen!!!*



submoa said:


> I like the following description better.
> 
> I see this as an ideal weapon to keep on the car seat to quickly resolve an attempted car-jacking. When a punk jerks the car door open, a face full of number four shot should rapidly dissuade the social misfit from wanting anything to do with your car, and should also render him unable to pass the eye exam for a driver's license for the rest of his miserable life. If this seems cruel, so be it. If someone sneaks into a parking lot and hot-wires a car, that is one thing, but if he tries to forcibly take an occupied vehicle at a traffic light, he can learn to read Braille in prison as far as I'm concerned.


All I can say is AMEN!!!!


----------



## Overkill0084

.410 slug - wouldn't a .45LC "slug" be more effective
.410 shot loads - at anything past point blank, they are less than optimal. So wouldn't a standard handgun load be just fine? If you need a shot load to hit someone at typical SD distances, perhaps more practice is in order. If over-penetration is a concern, consider some frangible SD loads.
Snakes and small vermin - I'm sure that typical pistol cartridge shot loads are more than enough.
I'm sure the Judge is a fun range toy and plinker. I just don't see it changing the face of self defense as we know it.


----------



## EliWolfe

I like the Judge because it is huge, cheap, heavy, ugly and chambers not one but two semi-effective cartridges. I think I'll wait till they offer it in 28 gauge with a new proprietary .55 Taurus Magnum handgun load.
Sorry, to each his own.
Eli :smt083


----------



## Steve M1911A1

They're comin' out with a 12ga/.75 caliber model in a coupla weeks, Eli.
Only five shots, but what the heck, right?

Jean and I will be away 'till the 15th. See you then.


----------



## EliWolfe

Steve M1911A1 said:


> They're comin' out with a 12ga/.75 caliber model in a coupla weeks, Eli.
> Only five shots, but what the heck, right?
> 
> Jean and I will be away 'till the 15th. See you then.


Roger that.:anim_lol: Have a safe trip.
Eli


----------



## stormbringer

I trust my 3" Judge with my life, that's why it's my nightstand gun. First off, people try to shoot regular .410 shotgun ammo out of it, way too much spread for such a short barrel. I exclusively use the Federal 410 Handgun plated 000 and the Win. PDX1, both have spread control sabots and are made for guns like the Judge. Here's a target I shot with the PDX1 at 25ft.








You can see where the sabot hit the bottom of the target, this would be a real bad day for a bad guy. The Federal plated 000 patterns just as well. It's all in the ammo you feed it and there's always 4 more shots in the cylinder.
I have mine loaded with 2 PDX1's, 2 Federal 000, and 1 of my 45Colt x-tra whoop-ass, handloaded, 250gr XTP's. If that don't stop an intruder I guess you'd better get the kryptonite. I can't understand why people hate this gun so much. I saw past the gimmick and took the time to explore the options available, a couple thousand rounds later, I have no regrets, and no doubt.


----------



## bayhawk2

The Judge is a serious "take out the bad guy"weapon.I agree.The
Federal 000 buck handgun .410's are my favorite.They hold a good pattern
and are bad to the bone.Slap 5 rounds (20) 000 buckshot in the b/g and 
call the dog food factory.Won't be nothing left but hamburger meat.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

bayhawk2 said:


> The Judge is a serious "take out the bad guy"weapon.I agree.The
> Federal 000 buck handgun .410's are my favorite.They hold a good pattern
> and are bad to the bone.Slap 5 rounds (20) 000 buckshot in the b/g and
> call the dog food factory.Won't be nothing left but hamburger meat.


Sounds good, but it just isn't true.
The real fight stopper is penetration, specifically into seriously important organs like the heart, the aortic arch, or the brain. But the buckshot that comes out of a .410 case, particularly through a short barrel, has neither the mass nor the velocity to penetrate to any meaningful degree. Even the .410 slug is less than competent in this regard.
All the Judge will do is create superficial wounds which, although painful and perhaps even blinding, will not stop an oncoming BG. It might even make him that much madder.


----------



## EliWolfe

stormbringer said:


> I can't understand why people hate this gun so much. I saw past the gimmick and took the time to explore the options available, a couple thousand rounds later, I have no regrets, and no doubt.


Sorry to joke about the Judge, I'm sure it is the right choice for you, and that's really the important thing right? I would most definitely not want to take a blast of .410 like your target shows. Is there much muzzle flash in a darkened area? Anyway, apologies for being a smart a%%. i'd say that it won't happen again, but it probably will. Regards, Eli :mrgreen:


----------



## Steve M1911A1

_Quote Originally Posted by *stormbringer*:
"I can't understand why people hate this gun so much..."_

It isn't hate. It's experience, practicality, and the ability to see through the advertising hype.
The Judge seems at first glance to be a good idea, but then, if you examine its abilities carefully, rationally, and with a critical mind, you will find that it can't possibly do what Taurus's advertising says it will do.
Buckshot from the .410 shell does indeed tear up paper targets, but paper targets are not the same as goblins. Further, slug loads from the Judge are inferior to .45 "Long" Colt cartridges.
But if you accept these facts and then decide to shoot .45 "Long" Colt loads, why didn't you buy a .45 "Long" Colt pistol in the first place?

The Judge is a poor, impractical solution to a serious, real-world problem.


----------



## EliWolfe

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Sounds good, but it just isn't true.
> The real fight stopper is penetration, specifically into seriously important organs like the heart, the aortic arch, or the brain. But the buckshot that comes out of a .410 case, particularly through a short barrel, has neither the mass nor the velocity to penetrate to any meaningful degree. Even the .410 slug is less than competent in this regard.
> All the Judge will do is create superficial wounds which, although painful and perhaps even blinding, will not stop an oncoming BG. It might even make him that much madder.


Welcome back Steve. Thank you for your thoughts on the Judge's effectiveness. I guess if it were me I'd tuck a little Stoeger 20 Bore under the bed if I wanted to use a shotgun. Do you think two rounds of 3" 20 Ga. mag 00 buckshot would work? (I would have a 5 round cartridge belt on the stock for reloads, and my bedside Beretta 9mm for backup). I like the handiness of the 20 over the 12. Sorry I am drifting a bit, but we ARE talking shotgun performance here right?
Eli :watching:

Eli


----------



## bayhawk2

Well.I go by what I see.I don't know how deep this converts to flesh
but I wanted to go to as short a barrel as possible to show it.This is
just a little derringer with the 000 buckshot.As you can also see in the video,
he is away from target.YouTube - Water penetration test: Federal Premium .410 000 Buckshot 4 pellet in a Bong Arms Derringer
Superficial?Whatever.I "don't" accept hear say.I accept facts.
This is just what the 000 buckshot will do.The slug is awesome,however I stick 
to what I "KNOW" will take out the B/G.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Well, *Eli*, 20ga is better than .410, but I hesitate to say how much better. Certainly, the longer shotgun barrel will permit the 20ga load to achieve more useful velocity than a pistol barrel would, and "power" (or whatever you prefer to call it) is a function of both mass _and_ velocity.

Given the choice, I'd definitely rather have a 20ga shotgun than a .410 pistol.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

bayhawk2 said:


> Well.I go by what I see.I don't know how deep this converts to flesh
> but I wanted to go to as short a barrel as possible to show it.This is
> just a little derringer with the 000 buckshot.As you can also see in the video,
> he is away from target.YouTube - Water penetration test: Federal Premium .410 000 Buckshot 4 pellet in a Bong Arms Derringer


OK, let's analyze this.
Triple-ought buckshot measures 0.36", and each weighs about 70 grains. Four of them total 280 grains. Google suggests a muzzle velocity of 1,200fps.
One .45 ACP RN lead bullet weighs 230 grains and, in the classic loading, goes out at 850fps. The .45 "Long" Colt has about the same ballistics (but a heavier bullet).
But you have to consider each 000 pellet as a separate missile. That's 70 grains of lead at 1,200fps, taken four times.
So tell me: Which will shock the system more, which will penetrate further, and which will do more fight-stopping damage, a 70gr pellet at 1,200fps, or a 230gr bullet at 850fps?

You prefer the four 36-caliber, 70gr pellets. I prefer the 45-caliber, 230gr bullet.
_Chaque'un à son gôut._


----------



## EliWolfe

Steve M1911A1
You prefer the four 36-caliber said:


> Chaque'un à son gôut.[/I]


Oui Stephane, de gustibus non est disputandum!
Elijah Wolfe


----------



## Steve M1911A1

EliWolfe said:


> Oui Stephane, de gustibus non est disputandum!
> Elijah Wolfe


Some people mix metaphors, but you, *Eli*, mix _languages_. :mrgreen:

_Veritas simplex oratio est_, say I. :smt023

...And, oh, that I could play as well as Stephane Grappelli!


----------



## EliWolfe

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Some people mix metaphors, but you, *Eli*, mix _languages_. :mrgreen:
> 
> _Veritas simplex oratio est_, say I. :smt023
> 
> ...And, oh, that I could play as well as Stephane Grappelli!


:anim_lol: You one funny hombre Steve. Hey, didn't they name the grappelling hook after that guy?
Adios mon ami, I must cease and desist before the drifter authorities arrive.
Eli


----------



## zebramochaman

I own one. It shoots .45 Colt without any problems, but .410 shotgun freezes the cylinder. I'm not sure if it is the gun or the ammo.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

zebramochaman said:


> I own one. It shoots .45 Colt without any problems, but .410 shotgun freezes the cylinder. I'm not sure if it is the gun or the ammo.


I have been reliably informed that the cause of this particular problem *may* be that the cylinder is too loose, in a front-to-back direction. The solution, _if that's the case_, is to place a thin shim at the _front_ of the cylinder, on the cylinder's axis. (This is a job for a gunsmith-or for Taurus, under warranty.)


----------



## j4l

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Sounds good, but it just isn't true.
> The real fight stopper is penetration, specifically into seriously important organs like the heart, the aortic arch, or the brain. But the buckshot that comes out of a .410 case, particularly through a short barrel, has neither the mass nor the velocity to penetrate to any meaningful degree. Even the .410 slug is less than competent in this regard.
> All the Judge will do is create superficial wounds which, although painful and perhaps even blinding, will not stop an oncoming BG. It might even make him that much madder.


Wow. the internet myths just keep coming...25 acp, birdshot, fmj, all have their myths about what they will or can or wont/cant do.

I had to drop a guy with a single-shot, NEF .410 about 13 yrs ago, when he was attempting a home-invasion. Busted open my door,despite my calls to him to leave, Im armed. They NEF was the only thing I had in the house at the time. Soon as he came through the door- I fired from 15 feet with the #4 load I had in it-straight into his face. DOA. Instantly.

Try this- #4 or #6 shot in .410 , 25 meters, 4 inches of pine 1 inch of steel for target.. then come back and lets us know how "superficial" you think the wound would be. 
A few months back, I tested .410 and 12 on a bunch of typical household materials I had around from an old out-building that we took down. #4, #6 and 000 in .410, and 00 in 12. 
Only #6 shot failed to go all the way through everything. Open cyl, on both shotguns- no chokes. 
Biggest spread of any of the shots was #6 @ 25 meters- out to about 11 inches. everything else patterened into a spread u can cover with your palm. I tested this because of all the interweb debates and bad advice folks give each other about 00 vs. birdshot for home-defense, penetration of walls etc. Make no mistake about it- #4, #6 shot are going to penetrate almost everything 00 or 000 do. Little Suzie 3 rooms down is no more safe with birdshot.
Dont take anyone's word on it though, try for yourself-seeing IS beleiving.

That said though- the Judge would be an ideal snake gun- (get a lot of Rattlesnake/Cottonmouth here). Wouldnt hesitate to use it for human pests if needed either.


----------



## zhurdan

j4l said:


> Wow. the internet myths just keep coming...25 acp, birdshot, fmj, all have their myths about what they will or can or wont/cant do.


No offense, but the fact that you consider Taurus to be in any way, shape or form a quality firearm kind of detracts from any info you're posting about load data. Taurus is the Yugo of the gun world, sure it'll work... right up until you need it to.


----------



## j4l

zhurdan said:


> No offense, but the fact that you consider Taurus to be in any way, shape or form a quality firearm kind of detracts from any info you're posting about load data. Taurus is the Yugo of the gun world, sure it'll work... right up until you need it to.


And brand snobbery most certainly lends credibility...?  If reading-comprehension were a skill of yours, you'd note I hadnt fired any of the loads I mentioned from the Taurus- it was an NEF in .410, and a Remington 870 for the 12... The load data holds. The tool itself, is of a design ideal for the task mentioned.

As for credibility of Taurus owners/users, I suppose you deem yourself credible enough to discredit everyone on this thread page? Tell us, plz, oh guru of gun wisdom, what brought you to the Taurus brand pages with your extensive free time?


----------



## EliWolfe

Judge not, that ye may not be Judged.
Eli :smt083


----------



## j4l

bayhawk2 said:


> Well.I go by what I see.I don't know how deep this converts to flesh
> but I wanted to go to as short a barrel as possible to show it.This is
> just a little derringer with the 000 buckshot.As you can also see in the video,
> he is away from target.YouTube - Water penetration test: Federal Premium .410 000 Buckshot 4 pellet in a Bong Arms Derringer
> Superficial?Whatever.I "don't" accept hear say.I accept facts.
> This is just what the 000 buckshot will do.The slug is awesome,however I stick
> to what I "KNOW" will take out the B/G.


Exactly. Both my own experiences by using, and testing. as well as the dozens of folks Ive seen brought into the E/R I worked in for years. Lot of internet "experts" regurgitate a lot of myths,w/out any of the above, and before you know it folks are making potentially life/death decisions on what they decide to buy and use on such nonsense. Graveyard's are full of folks that lived according to old wive's tales...


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Um, I have to assume that many of those E/R patients lived through their experiences. Correct?

The Bond Arms .410 derringer, even loaded with slugs, won't do as much to *instantly stop a fight* as will my six-shot AMT .45 Backup pocket pistol.
For one thing, it's more than likely that you'll get off only one derringer shot, since you will have to manually re-cock for the second. For another, you will have to be shooting from very, very close range (that is, inches not feet), which means that you would be in jeopardy from the BG's _fists_, not to mention any weapon he might be accessing.
Tactics, therefore, will be a deciding factor. The Bond Arms derringer puts you at a gigantic tactical disadvantage, while a small, multi-shot, semi-auto, .45 ACP pistol permits rapid-fire response and repeated, effective, fight-stopping hits at any distance from bad-breath to 20 yards, including while maneuvering evasively.

There is a tremendous difference between the better ballistics of a long-barrel NEF shotgun, and the ineffective ballistics of any short-barrel pistol, for instance the Judge or the Bond Arms derringer. Don't make the mistake of believing that the two are equivalent, just because they fire the same load. It just ain't so.


----------



## zhurdan

j4l said:


> And brand snobbery most certainly lends credibility...?  If reading-comprehension were a skill of yours, you'd note I hadnt fired any of the loads I mentioned from the Taurus- it was an NEF in .410, and a Remington 870 for the 12... The load data holds. The tool itself, is of a design ideal for the task mentioned.
> 
> As for credibility of Taurus owners/users, I suppose you deem yourself credible enough to discredit everyone on this thread page? Tell us, plz, oh guru of gun wisdom, what brought you to the Taurus brand pages with your extensive free time?


Hahaa.. this is truly funny. I think we found Gecko!

It's not about brand snobbery, it's about detailed accounts of Taurus' choking over and over, and as you are so fond of saying... go look it up for yourself! As far as my ability to comprehend... well, you were espousing the merits of Taurus in ANOTHER THREAD all the while, denouncing the future of the 9mm in another thread, also while spouting off the awesomeness of the .25ACP. Seriously? You think that a 9mm is crap, but nooooo, don't count out the mighty .25ACP!!! As for your assertions of going down to the local trauma center to see hoards of shooting victims... well, I'm smart enough to NOT live in an area where that occurs. Seems to me, making better decisions not only applies to your choice in weapons, but could use some work on where you live if GSW's happen with that level of frequency. Just sayin'.

As far as why I'd waste my time in the Taurus forum... well, (since you're questioning my wisdom with insults) When you come to the site, you click the gigantic "What's New?" button near the top left of the page... and guess what, it lists all the new threads on the forum. Imagine that, a tool that actually works! I read most all the threads because guns are an interest of mine, I respond when someone needs help or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. I'll let you decide which category you fall into.


----------



## EliWolfe

zhurdan said:


> EDIT:
> I read most all the threads because guns are an interest of mine, I respond when someone needs help or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. I'll let you decide which category you fall into.


+1, I really think this guy is just having us on a bit, attention seeker perhaps and look at his success!
Eli


----------



## j4l

zhurdan said:


> Hahaa.. this is truly funny. I think we found Gecko!
> 
> It's not about brand snobbery, it's about detailed accounts of Taurus' choking over and over, and as you are so fond of saying... go look it up for yourself! As far as my ability to comprehend... well, you were espousing the merits of Taurus in ANOTHER THREAD all the while, denouncing the future of the 9mm in another thread, also while spouting off the awesomeness of the .25ACP. Seriously? You think that a 9mm is crap, but nooooo, don't count out the mighty .25ACP!!! As for your assertions of going down to the local trauma center to see hoards of shooting victims... well, I'm smart enough to NOT live in an area where that occurs. Seems to me, making better decisions not only applies to your choice in weapons, but could use some work on where you live if GSW's happen with that level of frequency. Just sayin'.
> 
> As far as why I'd waste my time in the Taurus forum... well, (since you're questioning my wisdom with insults) When you come to the site, you click the gigantic "What's New?" button near the top left of the page... and guess what, it lists all the new threads on the forum. Imagine that, a tool that actually works! I read most all the threads because guns are an interest of mine, I respond when someone needs help or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. I'll let you decide which category you fall into.


W/e. the facts are what they are. Not liking any of them does'nt make them any _less _a fact. 
You've sure made up your mind as to what interweb mythology you choose to regurgitate, without relying on any actual personal experience or knowledge,all the while slamming another's information-without refuting a single point, of course. 
Ignorance may indeed be bliss, but we have a term for folks like you. We usually call them _victims._ Post mortem.


----------



## zhurdan

Ok.. want a few threads chock full of information about their quality? (I might add, you've only added anecdotal "evidence" as well concerning your "facts".)

http://www.handgunforum.net/taurus/26348-taurus-quality.html
(This one has about a wheelbarrow full of Taurus quality links in it - thanks Shipwreck)
http://www.handgunforum.net/taurus/26321-taurus-overall.html
http://www.handgunforum.net/taurus/25617-taurus-customer-support-loses-taurus-customer-forever.html
http://www.handgunforum.net/taurus/23419-taurus-customer-service.html

And these are just from THIS forum.

As for personal experience, I'd say I have more than most. I actually train with my weapons, not plink cans on the weekends. I go train with experts in the field, I shoot all year long and as of 3 months ago I'm starting to formally train people. Amazing, those assumptions you made about me as well, huh?

I've faced the devil and guess what, my training and dedication to the pistol brought me thru unscathed. I'd say that's a might bit better than say... I dunno, getting shot in the hand.

Anyways, I should have remembered the primary rule of forum posting... "Never argue with idiots, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."


----------



## EliWolfe

zhurdan EDIT Anyways said:


> +1 :anim_lol:


----------



## j4l

Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...

http://www.handgunforum.net/beretta/25932-beretta-tomcat-jaming-issues.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/beretta/25463-92fs-jamming-issues.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/beretta/24583-beretta-92fs-trigger-reset-problem.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/beretta/23910-bad-experience-how-properly-lubricate-my-beretta-m9.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/beretta/17598-stove-pipes-my-92f.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/beretta/19271-issue-90-two-mag-need-help.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/25290-potential-p99-problem.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/glock/24238-slide-problems.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/glock/22898-shooting-issues.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/glock/21902-slide-lock-spring-broke-help.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/glock/21859-40-kb-big-issue-not.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/glock/21480-sight-problem.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/glock/21740-magazine-release-problem.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/fn/21418-slide-malfunction.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/fn/19698-fnp-9-problems.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/fn/15017-trigger-work-fnp_9-a.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/23371-loose-magazines-kahr-pm9.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/26522-cw45-jamming-help.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/26437-interesting-different-kahr-issues-have-you-ever-seen.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/8571-kahr-reliability.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/24569-anybodys-p380-slide-lock-shut-range-report-too.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/21200-kahr-pm45-most-unreliable-ever.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kahr/15285-picked-up-used-cw40-will-not-eject-live-rounds.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kimber/4440-possible-kimber-issue.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kimber/16909-kimber-feed-problem.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kimber/22991-tactical-ultra-ii-turning-purple.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kimber/25118-rust-attack.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/kimber/22868-having-second-thoughts-kimber-need-advice.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/23403-round-stuck-barrel.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/21450-sig-trigger-job-anyone.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/19736-plastic-recoil-spring-guide-rod.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/23716-whats-first-thing-go-sig.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/22315-p229-jamming.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/24867-i-have-pitting-problems-my-gun.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/25854-short-trigger.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/26412-sig-sauer-inside-slide-discolored.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/18809-had-some-jams-please-help.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/17695-bad-first-experience-xd-45-a.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/20571-xdm-did-not-like-steel-cased-bullets.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springf...my-xd-magazine-loader-working-right-help.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/21472-xd9-troubles-ejecting-xdm-vs-xd-question.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/21860-round-would-not-extract.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/24563-xd-magazine-problems-help.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/smith-wesson/23488-s-w-25-5-cyl-unlocks-rotates-back.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/smith-wesson/24502-s-w-5906-mag-questions.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/smith-wesson/20773-should-i-concerned-m-p.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/smith-wesson/26156-617-leading-problem.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/12006-my-ppk-s-going-gunsmith.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/2816-new-walther-ppk-s-jammed.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/17207-new-p99-finally-arrived-rust-slide.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/17303-walther-ppk-broken-hammer.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/17559-possible-premature-fatigue-striker-spring-walther.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/18198-s-w-ppk-ppk-s-recall.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/21734-slide-problem-p99.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/21625-walther-p5-compact-gritty-trigger.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/24851-officially-waltherless-now.html

http://www.handgunforum.net/walther/23615-pps-problems.html


----------



## EliWolfe

j4l said:


> Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...
> 
> :smt082


----------



## zhurdan

j4l said:


> Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...


Glad I don't own any of those but a Glock, Kimber and a Kahr, all of which are about 4 years older than any of those threads. Glocks as of late have been having issues Gen3 and 4, mine is a Gen2, runs like a top. My kimber I've had tuned and parts replaced and it runs like a top. My Kahr sits in the safe because no one will buy it at what I would consider an acceptable loss to me.

A smarter person than I graciously pointed out to me that I was kinda of being a jerk IN the Taurus sub-forum. I'm glad he did. So, with that being said, I want to apologize for crapping all over this thread. That doesn't change my opinion on Taurus, nor will it stop me from trying to influence people to buy a better quality weapon for self defense purposes, but I'll bite my tongue when it comes to "lumping things together" in respect to _all_ items of one brand.

Stay safe... and Oh, I'm done with this thread.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

I certainly am glad that my M1911s and my AMT .45 Backup didn't make that long malfunctions list! I'd hate to think that I might be carrying a...Gasp!..."Taurus Equivalent." :anim_lol:

I notice that nobody seems to have internalized the information I presented in my previous post.
Oh, well...
May the guys with the Judges and Bond Arms derringers never have to put their weapons' inadequacies to the test. :smt083


----------



## j4l

Hmm. Good of you not to lump "everything" then. My point was- there's problems and malfunctions in all makes of all products. Be it guns, cars, etc. Problems arent exclusive to a particular brand or make. 
Some are better at customer service and quality control than others, that's a given..
But, if one looks at things, 9 out 10 "problems" turn out to be Operator Headspace anyway- clowns with screwdrivers trying to be desk-top "gunsmiths" , mis-handling, wrong ammo/loads, improper maintenence, etc. 
But heck. I've had malfunctions- everything from simple jams, to catastrophic failures with Barettas, Sigs, Brownings, Colts (rifles) ,more than I recall. Doesnt mean I've lumped all types/makes into the failure-avoid like the plaque category.

As far as particular calibers go- ya there are definitely some that just plain dont work. That's based on documented history, personal witness, personal experience, and having seen hundreds of clowns I used to X-ray in an ER. I've seen what works, and what doesnt work, in a lot of different ways. 
I know pro-9mm types get their panties in a wad anytime anyone points out they've chosen mothballs for defensive rounds, but..sometimes reality sucks like that. Im not going to, in good conscience, suggest such loads for folks to defend themselves with, just to be "nice".

On shotgun loads, I kept reading where folks suggest this or that load for home defense- because it "penetrates less" etc. Someday some folks are going to find out a really, really lousy lesson heading such advice. We're talking about firearms, folks. Not sneakers or stereos. What we discuss in places like this can and will get people killed. Under-estimating certain loads-esp. in shotguns is a HUGE mistake. But again, dont take _my word_ for it. Gather some materials, go out back in the yard, *and try it for yourself,* rather than reading my rants, or interweb mythology.

As for the Judge itself-since this got so side-tracked, MY intent for the weapon is primarily for use against SNAKES around my home. A defensive role against humans, if needed, would be secondary at most. But that would not make me hesitate to make use of what;s at hand.


----------



## bayhawk2

And what's at hand with the Judge and Federal handgun 000 buck is not
bad.Some critisize just to critisize.I guess they have nothing better to do.
Know it alls.We all have them in our lives somewhere.


----------



## EliWolfe

j4l said:


> EDIT: What we discuss in places like this can and will get people killed. Under-estimating certain loads-esp. in shotguns is a HUGE mistake. QUOTE]
> 
> I would love to stop reading your rants but I find them somehow stimulating :mrgreen:. Please unwad my panties (gently please) and don't get someone killed by telling them an adversary with a 9mm is no real threat because you saw it on an X-Ray somewhere. You may just get them killed by your own admission. Your failure to respond to my post on another thread about the 9mms devastating effect in the Gifford shootings puts your credibility in question.
> Eli


----------



## Steve M1911A1

bayhawk2 said:


> ...Some critisize just to critisize...


...And some defend their purchase just to defend their own impulsive choice.

(Note that I'm not criticizing your spelling.) :smt083


----------



## Couch Potato

j4l said:


> Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...


Having issues is not what gives Taurus a bad reputation, but the hassle of dealing with their incompetent, unresponsive customer service.


----------



## bayhawk2

I should have known never to doubt your word about
the Taurus Judge.I know you know much more than I do about it,after all,I've only put about a
"thousand rounds through mine".Oh sure you never held one or shot one,but the amount you have
read on it?No doubt you are the man.
P.S. End of conversation.I won't agrgue with a "know it all."


----------



## wjh2657

First off, I am not a .410 bore basher. I own 3 of them myself. However, they are all shotguns not pistols. Out here in "semi-rural " country ( 3-15 acre lots, but houses within 200 yards of each other) the .410 is the "Yard gun" or "Critter gun" of choice for pests. It fills a definite niche, but as a shotgun.

I have a Mossberg 500E (youth model) for the Grandkids when they hunt with Grandpa, an NEF Pardner with wood youth stock for "first shotgun" training for same and a composite stocked, weatherproofed H&R Pardner with a shell sleeve on stock that is the garage wall mounted "Duty Critter Gun." The first two sit with pride in the gunsafe alongside their numerous 12 gauge and 20 gauge "cousins." 

But I fail to see practicality of .410 in such a short barrel. To me it is a shotgun caliber/bore not a pistol cartridge.

BTW Mike, as I sit here typing, my 642 is nestled inside a GALCO Pro #158 in my front pocket.


----------



## j4l

EliWolfe said:


> j4l said:
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: What we discuss in places like this can and will get people killed. Under-estimating certain loads-esp. in shotguns is a HUGE mistake. QUOTE]
> 
> I would love to stop reading your rants but I find them somehow stimulating :mrgreen:. Please unwad my panties (gently please) and don't get someone killed by telling them an adversary with a 9mm is no real threat because you saw it on an X-Ray somewhere. You may just get them killed by your own admission. Your failure to respond to my post on another thread about the 9mms devastating effect in the Gifford shootings puts your credibility in question.
> Eli
> 
> 
> 
> Well,genius, havent read your comment in the other post...sooooooooooooo......
> As for x-rays, how does an average of 4-6 GSV's per night over the course of 5 yrs- about 80% of whom had 9mm rounds that failed to stop the persons, failed to expand , and as often as not failed to penetrate even minor bones when hit, disqualify the fact that the round flat out fails. Repeatedly.
> Punching a few holes in a piece of paper at the range once so often does'nt un-do any actual street facts, much as that may offend those who've made up their minds that they have a snow-ball's chance in hell of relying on them in an actual shooting.. :numbchuck:
> 
> Consider also: The majority of rounds used in the GSV's we had in -since most of the GSV's were gang-bangers , and wannabe gang-bangers, were 9mm.
> After that were .25 acp hits. Most didnt expand or were hardball anyway-but by far the round most often resulting in death. Next were .40- these most often being Police use. (another failure of a round most of the time) w/ many GSV's shot multiple times by multiple officers,with no result other than a lot of holes. Once in a blue moon, someone would come in shot by a .380 or a .38 spl-=these were usually civillian CCW folks shooting those. 50/50 results with those.
> The *ONLY* rounds we saw result in death of the GSV more than 90% of the time were .45 acp, .25 acp, 12 gauge, and 7.62x39mm. End of story.
> 
> But from my own perspective of a 9mm use- try putting _14 rounds_ (center-mass torso, all the way up to his forehead) into some Somali turd who MIGHT have weighed in at 70 lbs soaking wet, and with all his weapons and ammo, and have the guy *still *coming at you until your M9 is _empty_ and _you have to beat him to death with it_. I assure you, your faith in 9mm will take a nose-dive. But hey, what the hell would I know about any of it ,anyway...
Click to expand...


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Hey, *j4l*, please tell me about *the .25 ACP deaths* you've seen in your E/R.
• Was it, in any of these cases, possible to infer the distance between shooter and victim at the time the shot(s) were fired?
• In the most usual (maybe the mode, but not the median or average) case, how many hits did the victim receive?
• Could you infer or define which particular hit caused the (modal) death, or was the death a result of receiving multiple hits?
• If the (modal) death was the result of a single hit, where was that hit? Head (eye, nose, ear, brain)? Heart? Neck? Thigh? Thorax? Pelvis?
• Were there any remarkable, or unusual, factors involved in the (modal) death?
• Was there evidence of drugs in the victim's system, in the modal or in the general case?
• Is there any important factor I forgot to ask about?


----------



## EliWolfe

j4l said:


> EliWolfe said:
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> Well,genius, havent read your comment in the other post...sooooooooooooo......
> 
> 
> 
> A genius? Wow, thanks. My comment on the other post was relative to the recent fatal shootings surrounding Congresswoman Gifford. Just looking for your streetwise wiggle on that incident.
> Eli :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


----------



## EliWolfe

j4l said:


> EliWolfe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go. I'm all ears.
> You have stated that the 9mm FAILS Utterly as a handgun cartridge. You site "street" information and unknown physicians as proof. Well sir, in the recent shooting involving Congresswoman Gifford, a magazine full of 9mm fired spray and pray by a deranged drug addict totally destroys your pet "theory". That the Congresswoman survived is a miracle of sorts, but had she been a BG, her wound was a one shot stop. I am also willing to bet that the shooter used ball ammo, a 9mm+P hollowpoint might well have been fatal.
> 
> So as for your "streetsmarts" best rethink it. In the meantime, here is a list of folks you can't call to your defense as unfortunately the are now deseased, killed by the TOTALLY ineffective 9mm. You might consider an apology to these innocents, as I apologize for using them to illustrate a point. Please don't try to disect this shooting into some convoluted "proof" that the 9 won't kill folks. The verdict is allready in. Game over.
> Eli
> 
> May they rest in peace.
> 
> Six people were killed in the attack;[101] all but Christina-Taylor Green died at the scene of the shooting.[102] The deceased are (in alphabetical order by surname):
> 
> 1.Christina-Taylor Green, 9, of Tucson.[103] Green was accompanied to the meeting by neighbor Susan Hileman.[35][104] Born on September 11, 2001, she had appeared in the book Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11 (page 41).[105][106][107] She was the granddaughter of former Major League Baseball player and manager Dallas Green.[106][108]
> 2.Dorothy "Dot" Morris, 76, a retired secretary from Oro Valley; wife of George, who was wounded.[101][109]
> 3.John Roll, 63, chief judge of the U.S. District Court for Arizona, named to the federal bench by President George H. W. Bush in 1991.[35][110][111][112]
> 4.Phyllis Schneck, 79, homemaker from Tucson.[101][113]
> 5.Dorwan Stoddard, 76, retired construction worker, from a gunshot wound to the head; his wife Mavy was wounded.[101][114]
> 6.Gabriel "Gabe" Zimmerman, 30, community outreach director for Giffords,[6][35] and a member of Giffords' staff since 2006.[115]
> Thirteen people were wounded in the attack; a fourteenth person was injured at the scene, but was determined not to have been shot. Gabrielle Giffords and two other members of her staff were among the surviving gunshot victims.[3]
Click to expand...


----------



## j4l

Didnt say it never happens, merely that it does so rarely enough to be foolish to rely on it to do so for you. For any one case you can cite of 9mm performing fatally, im quiet sure a 10000 more folks can counter with the opposite. 
Again, there's a lot of valid reasons why the Feds, all but perhaps 3 or 4 law-enforcement agencies in the U.S., and the military have dropped the 9mm cold. 
In the LEO end of things, most opted for the .40, and If you ask most of em- they'll tell you flat-out they want the .45, because the .40 is barely an improvement over the 9 most of the time. (and no, i dont mean run of the mill officers, i mean officers that have had to use the round in action. ) 

The military has already laid out the specs /minimal requirements for the next service pistol- even though the program was killed for politics/financial reasons. But the spec remains- .45 acp. nothing less. Why, would they return to that old round after 20+ yrs of 9mm NATO? 
Ask em.


----------



## EliWolfe

j4l said:


> Didnt say it never happens, merely that it does so rarely enough to be foolish to rely on it to do so for you. For any one case you can cite of 9mm performing fatally, im quiet sure a 10000 more folks can counter with the opposite.


OK>>>I surrender...:anim_lol: This is a great site and I have been drifting endlessly for which I apologize to our hosts.
Eli


----------



## EliWolfe

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Hey, *j4l*, please tell me about *the .25 ACP deaths* you've seen in your E/R.
> • Was it, in any of these cases, possible to infer the distance between shooter and victim at the time the shot(s) were fired?
> • In the most usual (maybe the mode, but not the median or average) case, how many hits did the victim receive?
> • Could you infer or define which particular hit caused the (modal) death, or was the death a result of receiving multiple hits?
> • If the (modal) death was the result of a single hit, where was that hit? Head (eye, nose, ear, brain)? Heart? Neck? Thigh? Thorax? Pelvis?
> • Were there any remarkable, or unusual, factors involved in the (modal) death?
> • Was there evidence of drugs in the victim's system, in the modal or in the general case?
> • Is there any important factor I forgot to ask about?


Insensés Suffer plaisir!
Eli :mrgreen:


----------



## Steve M1911A1

...Mais, il n'offrait pas une réponse complet, ou aussi du pointe a pointe. :smt076


----------



## disgusted

*taurus judge*

there seems to be a lot of discussion about the ballistics of this revolver. as with any caliber and or weapon it seems no one can ever completely agree. a lot of the discussions have gone off the original points. 
i bought a taurus judge in the polymer model. had to return it to the dealer.. right out of the box the cylinder and timing would not lock up when closing the cylinder..dealer was very agreeable and replaced said gun but for a few dollars more i opted for the public defender ultralite.
kept it loaded with 000 for a month before actually firing it..after 5 rounds and ejecting spent shells the cylinder would not lock up and the hammer spring was broken .. am going back to dealer this weekend..will see what he will do about this issue because i do not want another taurus..my take on this is that taurus has tried to meet the demand for these revolvers and quality control is lacking..
i think that several of you are correct about the sales hype .
the smaller framed judges have a lot of recoil ,,unless you shoot a lot and are used to it,,i think in an extreme situation follow up shots would be difficult for the average person..just saying..
also most forums/sights including taurus point out that the .410 slug is not very accurate in this revolver,,hence the .45 colt 
also most of the judges are too big for cc and the smaller frames have considerable recoil.. smaller grips..also i have a s/w 500 and am used to recoil..
my only reason to posting on this thread is to point out my personal experience with this revolver..you can argue about the rest ..


----------



## Packard

To do real damage to an adversary you need to first, get sufficient penetration, and second have a fairly large wound cavity.

The .410 certainly makes a wide wound cavity. I think the penetration is quite limited, except at very close range.

I will Google ".410 shot in ballistic gelatin" to see what results are out there.

Also, S & W makes a similar weapon (but of much higher quality) called "The Governor".


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Packard said:


> ...The .410 certainly makes a wide wound cavity...


Under what conditions, exactly?
With what load?
And from where did you get the information?

As I understand it, when shot from a pistol:
The .410 slug load neither penetrates well nor makes a "wide wound cavity."
The .410 buckshot load does not penetrate well, but rather spreads its shot quite widely and ineffectually.
The .410 birdshot load neither penetrates nor makes any sort of "wound cavity" at all.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell

:watching:


----------



## skidder

Buy the Taurus, and with the money you save take a class in pistol whipping. When the gun locks up trade it in for a 16 oz hammer. That way the decision to buy the Taurus won't be a total loss. :smt021


----------



## Cat

That was good Steve m1911A1 :smt1099


----------



## hud35500

I'm sure there's a place for guns like the Judge, but all I can see is "collateral damage" from a shotshell. I would be nice for shooting .45LC though.


----------



## skidder

They are sloppy crackle cakes made of some kind of peanut brittle alloy. Remove the side plate to reveal the marshmallow filling. Mine had a crunchy chocolate filling inside. I will never buy another one unless they throw in a glass of milk.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

skidder said:


> They are sloppy crackle cakes made of some kind of peanut brittle alloy. Remove the side plate to reveal the marshmallow filling. Mine had a crunchy chocolate filling inside. I will never buy another one unless they throw in a glass of milk.


:anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol:
My thoughts about the Taurus product exactly!
:watching:


----------



## Vector16

Its a great gun, SD i don't know about. I like using it for when I am gathering goodies like wild artichokes, snakes like the undergrowth alot. the .410 comes on handy for a quick shot at a few feet. if you were going to use it for SD, keep the .45s loaded and for what I use it for .410's


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Vector16 said:


> ...[W]hen I am gathering goodies like wild artichokes, snakes like the undergrowth alot. the .410 comes on handy for a quick shot at a few feet...


Yeah, OK...
But do you eat the snakes you kill?

Do you know why we aren't knee-deep in rats, mice, and voles?
It's because snakes eat 'em.

The only reasons to kill a snake would be because it threatens you in such a way as to keep you from retreating, or because you're hungry for snake meat.


----------



## IamArmed

Tired of hearing all of this penetration nonsense. While it is important in a single projectile not so much in multiple. You can hit someone in the face with a blackjack filled with lead shot and get no penetration at all but they are going down for the count. I am not counting on how deep it penetrates. I am counting on stopping the attacker. While penetration is important to reach vital organs I am looking to stop the attacker not necessairly reach vital organs. The only sure stoppers instantly are the femer bone or a brain box shot or sever the spinal cord. I know of a lot of cases with wounds of the lungs and or heart and the attcker keeps on coming stabs you to death or beats you to a pulp then dies. However a face full of birdshot is a stopper. Also 7 yards is quite a long distance in a home. you are talking 21 feet. Sooo...just saying. A judge is a stopper, not an instant garanteed killer, nothing is. Also a great penetration round is not much good if it misses, and a lot of people under stress are not great shots at 7 yards with a single projectile weapon...however with some scatter shot...well I hope you see my point.


----------



## pic

DAD ,(my son speaking) 
A shot to the brain, heart,or lungs always stops the attacker. Certain animals have smaller brains making the target smaller.
My jaw hit the floor how he would even say or know this. He was playing his Wii video games..oh boy,


----------



## SteamboatWillie

DjSaneR said:


> Toying with the idea of purchasing the Judge for in-car protection. I saw the demo on the Taurus site and it looks interesting. Those that have it can you chime in an give your overall opinion? Likes/Dislikes.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


Wow! Quite a thread.

Maybe a silly question, but wouldn't it be easier to just use the handgun you carry for in-car defense? I guess that assumes you carry one. If you don't, I'd highly recommend it. Then you can defend yourself in AND outside your car. Or are you asking about carrying the Judge in your car in addition to your carry gun?


----------



## GunHappy

All I know is I love my Taurus Judge Magnum. Unless I`m facing a truly insane person or a real zombie, I think a normal bad guy is gonna crap their pant if a Judge is pointed at them. After the first BOOM, if they are still standing, I believe they are gonna be running as fast as crap smeared legs will allow. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

IamArmed said:


> ...You can hit someone in the face with a blackjack filled with lead shot and get no penetration at all but they are going down for the count...


...So then are you implying that a lead-shot-filled blackjack is as good as a gun?
Do you mean that merely knocking an attacker down is sufficient to permanently end the fight?
Have you ever tried this? Or is it mere conjecture?



GunHappy said:


> All I know is I love my Taurus Judge Magnum...After the first BOOM, if they are still standing, I believe they are gonna be running as fast as crap smeared legs will allow...


Have you ever tried it? Or is this, too, merely conjecture?


----------



## IamArmed

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...So then are you implying that a lead-shot-filled blackjack is as good as a gun?
> Do you mean that merely knocking an attacker down is sufficient to permanently end the fight?
> Have you ever tried this? Or is it mere conjecture?
> 
> Have you ever tried it? Or is this, too, merely conjecture?


Nope definitely not conjecture. Having had experience with seeing people shot in the face with a shotgun with number 6s and 7 1/2 half not even talking about the defensive loads made for this weapon (Judge)...saw this in Nam I never saw anyone have any fight left in them. However I will admit it was with a 12 gauge but the distance was further of course that does alter the equation but on every occasion the individual was blind and rendered helpless. With a 410 in the face at 10 to 20 feet which I feel is where this weapon is used I think it is extremely effective if used correctly and more than likely the altercation is over.

To answer your question about the blackjack I just used that as a point of getting hit in the face with quite a bit or force. If you can stand getting hit in the face with a blackjack weighing around 2 or 3 pounds by someone you are one guy to be feared for sure. It takes the fight out of one for sure. I believe it was Mike Tyson who said everyone is a tough guy until they get hit in the face.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

IamArmed said:


> ...[I've] had experience with seeing people shot in the face with a shotgun with number 6s and 7 1/2...*However I will admit it was with a 12 gauge*...[emphasis added]


I note that the Judge is definitely not a 12ga, and also that its rifled barrel tends to disperse its shot column widely, even at close range.

While I definitely would not stand up well to a blow to the face with either a blackjack or Mike Tyson's fist, neither of these examples defines the performance of the Judge.


----------



## IamArmed

You are absolutely correct... neither of these examples defines the performance of the Judge. The Judge speaks for itself.

Take The Judge out loaded with anything from 7 1/2 to 000buck and use it on a target at 10 to 20 feet and see what you come up with. If a head shot the face will be obliterated. It this were a person the incident is over.

Here is some interesting info on the Judge. Ballistic Gelatin Results

I am not saying it is the most fantastic stopper in the world, but I am tired of hearing some people saying how inadequate of a stopper it is.


----------



## TAPnRACK

How could this be considered "inadequate"?, lol.

The Raging Judge...


----------



## Steve M1911A1

...And it's so easy to conceal!


----------



## paratrooper

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And it's so easy to conceal!


Yeah, if you're 10'-6" and weigh 650 lbs. :anim_lol:

When it comes to preventing a car-jacking, I just drive with the doors locked and the windows up.


----------



## BowerR64

One good thing about that gun is you can find ammo anywhere right now for it. 45LC maybe not but 410 is just about every where and its cheap.


----------



## USVI

BowerR64 said:


> One good thing about that gun is you can find ammo anywhere right now for it. 45LC maybe not but 410 is just about every where and its cheap.


An inexpensive gun that can fire a shotgun round through a short barrel that is marginally effective and is able to fire a 100+ year old antiquated pistol round too? How could that be a bad thing?


----------



## IamArmed

USVI said:


> An inexpensive gun that can fire a shotgun round through a short barrel that is marginally effective and is able to fire a 100+ year old antiquated pistol round too? How could that be a bad thing?


Oh boy. Another nay sayer. Please explain "marginally effective".

If properly used in the confines of the distance this is made from up very close and personal to 20 0r 25 feet and one shoots for the head why do you feel it is as you say "marginally effective". If one gets shot in the face with the discharge from this weapon at this range the senario is over. More than likely the attacker is blind and if not blind in such pain as they cannot function after getting hit in the face with a 410 shotgun shell charge.

Yea marginally effective if you are trying to be a cowboy and shot someone at 30 yards with your Judge 410 that is not a threat to you. Give me a break. I posted earlier on this thread ballistics on this weapon at reasonable distance. Check them out then tell me it is marginally effective. All weapons are marginally effective if you use them in the wrong way and at the wrong distances. This is a close up weapon to be used as a stopper at distances from very close to aroound 25 feet. In that vein it goes way beyond marginally effective if you do your part as with any weapon.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

I guess that my question about the Judge is, "Why?"

Every bullet-firing pistol is more effective, usually by a large margin.
Even if the .410 shot-shell works at very short range, so does a bullet, with less felt recoil, and from a more concealable and easier-to-handle gun.
Using a Judge still requires of its user the same practice, to achieve effectiveness, that a bullet-firing gun requires.

What does a Judge do, that lots of smaller, handier, less user-painful, lighter-weight, bullet-firing pistols won't also do?


----------



## USVI

IamArmed said:


> Oh boy. Another nay sayer. Please explain "marginally effective". .


This...



-V-



If I have to explain why you don't aim at someones "face" then I am wasting my time.


----------



## IamArmed

Yes you are wasting your time as your post shows nor explains anything. To be effective one must hit what they are aiming at. Much easier to hit something with the Judge than a single projectile firearm under duress. I have shot a Judge and all of the popular calibers of pistols and by far and away the Judge is the easiest to score a head shot with the lest amount of practice at 15 ft at speed. By the way I do not own a Judge. 

Further more to answer the question of WHY THE JUDGE. Simple answer multiple projectiles. Much better chance of hitting your target under stress. Take a quick point and shoot shot with a single projectile firearm at 15 feet. Now do the same with the Judge. Tell me how well you did by shooting at the head with both firearms. Let me tell you. You have wounds with the Judge and you "may" and I say "may" have hit the head with the single projectile firearm. If you missed your adversary is now closer and closing with speed. However believe me if he got hit with a projectile from the judge he is definitely slowed down or stopped and you can fire again for a complete stop in the face.

By the way I do not care how much penetration you get to reach vital organs from the other weapons. I am looking for an attack stopper...that is where the Judge excels. It is not for penetration and killing lions and tigers and bears and deer...it is made to stop an attacker. If I want penetration... I feel most handguns are inadequate and if penetration is what I want I will use a rifle as that is what it is intended for.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

*IamArmed*;
Please refer back to *USVI*'s post.
• The yellow gelatin with the short ruler in front of it displays typical penetration by pellets from a Judge's .410 load. Note that these pellets penetrate less than four inches. This represents insufficient penetration, in respect to human flesh and whatever might be covering it. Further, the pellets' channels exhibit very little tissue damage
• The FBI has decided, after extensive testing, that for a sure stop, penetration into gelatin needs to be in the vicinity of one foot. This translates into an ability to pass through clothing and still do useful damage. Note the associated photos of gelatin penetration of several bullets, and the wound cavity those bullets leave behind.
• Hits to the face may be ineffective because the human skull is a pretty tough piece of armor. Yes, the Judge's pellets will damage the face, and _may_ even blind someone, but this is not a sure thing because the Judge seems to have proven itself to be fairly inaccurate when firing shotgun pellets.
• Pain itself is not a sure stopper, particularly when your opponent is "high" on angry adrenaline or one drug or another. The only sure stopper, it seems, according to the FBI, is shock and tissue damage, and neither of these are the products of a shot load from the Judge.

That is why several of us believe the Judge to be ineffective and fairly useless.
You may feel differently. You, or any Judge user, can freely put yourself "on the line" with whatever defensive weapon you choose.
We merely disagree with you. Strongly. As the result of hard evidence.
That's all.


----------



## pic

*Rapid fire of a Sig P226 Tacops Threaded barrel 9mm - YouTube*
The above link is just a you tube of a rapid firing sig 226, looks like recoil is minimal.
The judge is More like a conversation piece, look at the conversation we've had already.
The judge might have a purpose, but I would be more confident rapid firing a hail of 9 mm rounds in a self defense situation.
YES, I would own a Taurus judge. I would find a use for it.


----------



## Overkill0084

While the Judge may rise to the level of adequate depending on ammo, it's by no means reinvented the concept of self defense with a handgun. 
As a shotgun, the judge is compromised by it's exceedingly short, rifled barrel. 
As a "normal" revolver, it's accuracy potential less than that of a standard .45 colt revolver, due to the long chambers.
As a firearm in general, it's compromised by being a Taurus.
The worst of all possible worlds. 

If for some reason one feels that this type of weapon is the way forward, at least spring for the S&W Governor.


----------



## VAMarine

Overkill0084 said:


> While the Judge may rise to the level of adequate depending on ammo, it's by no means reinvented the concept of self defense with a handgun.
> As a shotgun, the judge is compromised by it's exceedingly short, rifled barrel.
> As a "normal" revolver, it's accuracy potential less than that of a standard .45 colt revolver, due to the long chambers.
> As a firearm in general, it's compromised by being a Taurus.
> The worst of all possible worlds.
> 
> If for some reason one feels that this type of weapon is the way forward, at least spring for the S&W Governor.


I love the smell of good posting in the morning, smells like....victory.


----------



## faststang90

i have one but it is not to carry in my truck. i like the gun just as something to go to the range with i use PDX1 410 defender ammo. i would say its not a good gun to carry in your car.


----------



## SteamboatWillie

DjSaneR said:


> Toying with the idea of purchasing the Judge for in-car protection.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


My solution for "in car protection" is the same as my bedside gun; I use the gun I carry. I'm not sure a firearm like the Judge would give you any real added benefit for the money paid. Now if you want one because you like the concept, or you like the novelty of it, go forth and prosper. But any real protection advantage - sorry, I don't really see it.

But that's just my point of view. Then again, what do I know, I carry a 9mm! :anim_lol:

And by the way, I've owned a Taurus hangun before, their PT1911 used as a range gun, and had zero issues with it.


----------



## kibbleking

Anyone here reloading with copperhead BB's ??


----------

