# FPE and Stopping Power



## billsmanager63 (Sep 2, 2015)

How much FPE and SP does a (HI-POINT 380, Model CF380) have?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

What the heck is "FPE" and "SP"? Are they somehow related to ED and BPH?
If you want answers, spell-out whatever it is you want to know about.

In truth, there is no such thing as "stopping power."
If you are attacked, you keep shooting until the threat stops. It may take only one shot, or it may take two reload magazines.

In the case of the .380, an inherently weak round, accuracy and bullet placement are the all-important factors.
If you shoot inaccurately, and make only peripheral hits (or only misses), there won't be any "stop."
So if you carry a .380 for self-defense, you need to practice your shooting skills until you can make quick, accurate, carefully-placed hits, each and every time.

With no direct experience, I understand that Hi-Point pistols are quite accurate and reliable, although large and heavy.
Their main problem is that they are made of a zinc alloy, which is soft and not terribly strong, and will probably self-destruct at exactly the moment when you need the gun most.

(Truth: My 24/7 pistol is a .380, and I practice a lot. And I have years and years of self-defense-shooting experience.)


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Foot pounds of energy vary with the ammunition shot. Most manufacturers list this on the box, or you can find the information on line. Stopping power is pretty problematic. Any caliber from .22 on up has the potential to stop an adversary and any caliber can fail with poor shot placement. I feel pretty naked carrying anything less than a 9X19MM although I do carry a .380 and more often a 9X18MM for back up. Yours is a reasonable question. The Hi-Point has a pretty good reputation despite it's low cost. Too be honest I would feel better with a CZ or a Glock.


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

faster is not always better. A smaller /faster round may be more likely to pass through your target, so a lot of that energy continues on with the bullet.
A heavier bullet with lesser velocity may have the same energy equivalence, but may also be more likely to stay in your target; in which case ALL of the energy goes into stopping the threat. 
As Steve said, it's hitting your target in the immobilization zones reliably that will stop the threat, not the gun with the greatest muzzle velocity or energy in the bullet.


How do you get to the met, Mister?
"Practice, son, Practice"


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

I'm surprised people are still interested in the .380 caliber. I could understand why when 9mm pistols were larger, but there are very small 9's that are the same size as .380's now, so, why handicap yourself with an anemic caliber? More recoil with the 9mm? In the situation where the gun would be used, I doubt you'd notice it.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

win231 said:


> I'm surprised people are still interested in the .380 caliber. I could understand why when 9mm pistols were larger, but there are very small 9's that are the same size as .380's now, so, why handicap yourself with an anemic caliber? More recoil with the 9mm? In the situation where the gun would be used, I doubt you'd notice it.


One reason for using an "anemic caliber" is the onset of arthritis.
It's all my own hands can effectively handle, right now.

When you grow up, it will eventually happen to you, too.
Then you will finally develop the understanding that not everybody is exactly like you.

And, believe me, the difference between 9mm and .380, particularly in a small pistol, is distinctly noticeable.
It is especially noticeable during necessary, extensive practice.

(Perhaps you don't notice the difference because you don't practice.)


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Well, Temper, Temper. Actually, the LCP and TPH in .380 are smaller than the mini-nines. People may primary carry them for just that reason, although I wouldn't. win231 is right in that in a stress situation you won't notice the recoil. However, you should practice with what you carry, and if you are recoil shy of your pistol you will develop a real trigger jerk. My experience is that the student should start with a mild load and work up. The .380 in a medium sized pistol may be perfect for some. My Daughter, who is ballerina sized, shoots my G21 with no problem. Her Husband, a large man, prefers a CZ 75b in 9MM. Go Figure.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Tangof said:


> ...win231 is right in that in a stress situation you won't notice the recoil...


You wouldn't.
I do.

For more than 20 years, I competed in Practical Shooting using a .45 ACP M1911.
You can take my word for it: I know about recoil management.

I have also taught practical self-defense shooting, and I have been involved in, um, incidents...although I have never had to shoot my way out of any.
So you can assume that I know something about stress, accuracy, and effectiveness.

When your background comes somewhat closer to mine, I might permit you to tell me how wrong I am.
But right now, neither *win231* nor you have enough experience to be able to validly lecture me about shooting the pistol.
And particularly, neither of you have any right to tell me about what I should feel or what I do feel.

Please leave your hubris at home. You might learn something.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Well, I'm not getting out any measuring sticks, but my background is 18 years as a Federal Firearms Instructor. BOP, U.S. Marshal Service, Border Patrol and, believe it or not, IRS Agents. I've instructed in revolver, semi-auto pistol, shotgun and M-16, M-4 and many back up guns so maybe I qualify for a leetle experience.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Yeah. I guess that you do.
OK, I'll listen to what you have to say.

But when you start writing thing like "you can't tell the difference" to someone who can tell the difference, I suggest that you're stepping out of bounds.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Perhaps I stated it wrong. Of course your going to notice the difference in recoil between a .380 and a 9MM in the same model. What I meant was if someone's shooting at you and your returning fire, felt recoil will not be a factor. It will be a factor in weapon control.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> One reason for using an "anemic caliber" is the onset of arthritis.
> It's all my own hands can effectively handle, right now.
> 
> When you grow up, it will eventually happen to you, too.
> ...


LOL. perhaps you might consider switching to decaf. I'm 62 & I also have some arthritis in my hands. I'm also an instructor & competitive shooter.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

win231 said:


> LOL. perhaps you might consider switching to decaf. I'm 62 & I also have some arthritis in my hands. I'm also an instructor & competitive shooter.


As I wrote to *Tangof*, don't presume to tell me what I feel or don't feel, or what I will feel under certain circumstances.
That includes trying to instruct me about coffee, of which I drink very little.

Polite discussion is no place for judgmental statements, particularly when you know nothing about the person, or the equipment, which you presume to judge.
You occasionally post notes with which I have agreed, and for each of which I appended a "like." But I notice that you are also quite impolite, and tend to leave little room for the opinions of others. I suggest to you that this is not a way to, as used to be said, "win friends and influence people."

I've said my piece about the OP's question.
I'm outta here.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

win231 said:


> I'm surprised people are still interested in the .380 caliber. I could understand why when 9mm pistols were larger, but there are very small 9's that are the same size as .380's now, so, why handicap yourself with an anemic caliber?


Many only 45 caliber shooters would say the same for 9mm.....

Caliber war is one that will never be won by a specific caliber.....

Many deaths have be caused by .22, .32, .380, .38, .38 super, 9mm, .45 none are the "only" one to have......

As others have mentioned its accuracy and bullet placement that are the all-important factors.


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## OldManMontgomery (Nov 2, 2013)

*No simple answer*

By "FPE" I presume you mean "Foot Pounds of Energy", which is a measure of energy derived from the speed of a moving object squared. The underlying fact is, kinetic energy and stopping power have no direct correlation.

Stopping Power, or Incapacitation Probability (and a handful of other labels which proliferate due to the basic refusal of several different schools of thought to agree on a title) are usually defined as something along the lines of being able to reduce an attacker to inability to carry on a meaningful attack. It comes from one of three conditions: death, extreme weakness (usually from blood loss or destruction of ambulatory ability) or a wound to the central nervous system which paralyses voluntary movement.

Despite the working of many shooters, ballisticians, mathematicians, mystics and the odd voodoo doctor, NO DEPENDABLE mathematical system has been developed. There are and have been many theories developed and appreciated, but none of them will predict the results of shooting a hostile attacker.

Brute force - kinetic energy - does not accomplish this until the level available in full size rifle, shotgun or cannon rounds. (A full charge .30-06 round or 105mm recoilless rifle will typically do the trick. Not so much with handgun rounds.)

Pain is not a reliable stopper. It does in some cases, but in other cases, the attacker is immune to pain for one or more reasons, including pharmaceutical and mental influences.

Blood loss is a reliable stopper, but not immediate. Unless a hugely massive bleeding wound is generated, it takes a while for blood loss to incapacitate an attacker.

The good news is there is empirical data to show that the (perceptibly) minor .380 ACP (and the even more minor .32 ACP and .22 long rifle cartridges) HAS in fact stopped an attacker dead - in one or more meanings of the word - in their tracks. But, also empirically, the .380 ACP (et al) does NOT stop an attacker every time.

Steve repeated the often given advice of "keep shooting until the threat stops". This is far more effective and requires fewer shots IF one hits the attacker on ALL attempts; preferably in places that presents more damage to the central nervous system. (Worded another way, it takes more shots to stop an attacker if the first four or five do not hit the attacker.)

How does one 'hit' the central nervous system? First off, consult a medical anatomy text. Look and see where the important stuff is located. Then study it until one understands where those bits are located from various angles. One does not always get a full, frontal exposure of an adversary at which to shoot. Sometimes it's only part of a view, sometimes a three-quarter view, sometimes a sideways (through the upper arm) shot.

With a .380 ACP, I recommend against targeting the heart. It can be penetrated, but with the FMJ rounds needed to penetrate deep enough, it is likely the round will form a ragged hole, which closes up after penetration, and bleeds rather slowly. This allows a determined attacker to continue an attack, even if dying in the process. (If the attacker dies _after_ maiming one, the maimed attackee has little comfort.)

If it means anything to you, I am of the 'momentum' faction. I think heavy (the heaviest possible) bullets moving as fast as is practical (observing the limits of the cartridge and arm) imparts the greatest injury and 'shock' - a relative and disputed word - of any handgun. Plus, one needs to penetrate the body sufficiently enough to damage the brain, spine or bone structure immediately.

I personally prefer a 105mm recoilless rifle. However, they are hard to holster and carry discretely.

My best wishes.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> As I wrote to *Tangof*, don't presume to tell me what I feel or don't feel, or what I will feel under certain circumstances.
> That includes trying to instruct me about coffee, of which I drink very little.
> 
> Polite discussion is no place for judgmental statements, particularly when you know nothing about the person, or the equipment, which you presume to judge.
> ...


Such misinterpretations commonly occur when someone reads things into a post that aren't there. :mrgreen:


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

win231 said:


> Such misinterpretations commonly occur when someone reads things into a post that aren't there. :mrgreen:


I don't believe Steve read things into a post that aren't there.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

Chipmunks the world over, tremble at the very mention of the .380!


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

shootbrownelk said:


> Chipmunks the world over, tremble at the very mention of the .380!


Mr Bond saved the world with a .380

but then life imitates art too.:smt066


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

shootbrownelk said:


> Chipmunks the world over, tremble at the very mention of the .380!


LOL! A quote from Jeff Cooper: _"It's a great caliber if you want to stop a canary...provided it was seriously wounded in the first place."_

Ya think he was exaggerating just a bit?


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

CW said:


> Mr Bond saved the world with a .380
> 
> but then life imitates art too.:smt066


Ian Fleming's Bond carried a .25 ACP first, then had to give it up for a real "Stopper" Walther PPK in .32ACP.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Cait43 said:


> I don't believe Steve read things into a post that aren't there.


 You might want to re-read some posts. Saying to someone "When you grow up"
and the egotistical " When you have as much knowledge, training, experience etc. as I do then you can post." I'm sure there are people on this Forum that have just as much or more (a lot more) experience and training with firearms but do not need beat someone over the head with it.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

billsmanager63 said:


> How much FPE and SP does a (HI-POINT 380, Model CF380) have?


FPE in a .380? In a commercial load, probably Buffalo Bore's 380 Auto +P Ammo - 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.)

On a side note; in one of my favorite series "The First 48" alot of unfortunate folks are murdered by .380 caliber if that tells you anything.


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## HK Dan (Dec 22, 2010)

LOLOLOL--Yah, the .45 guy WOULD disparqage it. I'm no fan of the .380, BUT if it's all you have, it'll work. Lemme demonstrate--all of you nay sayers, back up against the wall of the room. Relax, I'm only going to shoot you I the leg...Second thoughts? LOLOLOL


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

HK Dan said:


> LOLOLOL--Yah, the .45 guy WOULD disparage it. I'm no fan of the .380, BUT if it's all you have, it'll work. Lemme demonstrate--all of you nay sayers, back up against the wall of the room. Relax, I'm only going to shoot you I the leg...Second thoughts? LOLOLOL


Well put Dan..............


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## OldManMontgomery (Nov 2, 2013)

*A word about meanings and definitions.*



denner said:


> On a side note; in one of my favorite series "The First 48" alot of unfortunate folks are murdered by .380 caliber if that tells you anything.


Yes, people, perhaps 'many' (how 'many' is that, a percentage of the total of murder victims?) have been murdered by pistols in .380 ACP. Many people have been murdered by pistols in caliber .32 ACP as well. Urban legend has it 'many' people have been murdered by ice picks.

So what?

Murder is NOT the same thing as self defense. Not even close. Not in a legal legal perspective, not in terms of physical circumstance.

Self defense stems from reaction to an immediate, lethal force. The defender responds to the threat. When confronted with immediate, lethal and illegal force (who cannot legally 'defend' one's self from a lawful arrest, for instance) the defender wants the lethal threat to stop immediately. The attacker is prepared, willing and to some degree, motivated.

Murder is done by a combination of surprise and stealth in some form. I'll leave it at that.

Remember this: Confusing 'killing' with effective self defense is extremely misguided. Consider: one is attacked by a villain with a broken bottle (normally considered a deadly weapon) and one shoots the bottle equipped attacker without stopping him immediately. The attacker then carves one's face essentially off the skull, then moves off and dies. The attacker is now dead, resulting from being shot. I submit the defender with the missing face did not 'win'.

However, compare the same basic scenario with the following results: Upon being shot, the attacker immediately ceases his attack. He doesn't even fall over, but drops the bottle and remains inert long enough to be taken into custody. The attacker is (while under arrest and in official custody) taken to hospital. He is diagnosed and treated with a cleaning, band aid and some pain killers. The attacker then goes on to live for a considerable amount of time. (Hopefully turning to more productive choices.) In all this, the defender is *uninjured.* I submit the defender won the encountered rather handily.

I - among others - do not think the .380 ACP round to be likely to end an attack by shooting. (For this discussion, I'm ignoring those times attackers run away at the sight or threat of a firearm; I'm talking about actual physical encounters and use of lethal force.) Others have differing opinions. But confusing 'killing' with 'stopping' is widespread and misguided. Potentially tragic.


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## OldManMontgomery (Nov 2, 2013)

HK Dan said:


> LOLOLOL--Yah, the .45 guy WOULD disparqage it. I'm no fan of the .380, BUT if it's all you have, it'll work. Lemme demonstrate--all of you nay sayers, back up against the wall of the room. Relax, I'm only going to shoot you I the leg...Second thoughts? LOLOLOL


Sure, Dan. You can shoot me in the leg with a .380. Immediately AFTER I hit you up side the head with a baseball bat. Does this 'prove' the effectiveness of a baseball bat over a .380 ACP?

The argument is rather childish. Self defense is a serious subject and deserves actual thought.

Some of your statement is useful. When under immediate attack, what one has is what one is able to use. The question here is 'how does one prepare?' not, 'how under-prepared can I be and conceivably survive?' To _intentionally_ under equip one's self for any endeavor is ill advised.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

I'm not sure, I have no facts to present. But the lowly .22 rimfire has probably killed more 4 legged & 2 legged varmints than all others combined.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I am moved to make one last comment on this subject: Accuracy and careful bullet placement beats ballistics, every time.

Yeah, I know that keeping cool under attack is damned difficult. But keeping as cool as possible is what will save your life.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

If Steve1911A1 tells me that a piss-ant can pull a freight train, I'm probably going to start hunting for a harness. He isn't infallible, of course, but the odds are to my personal liking. :mrgreen:


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

shootbrownelk said:


> I'm not sure, I have no facts to present. But the lowly .22 rimfire has probably killed more 4 legged & 2 legged varmints than all others combined.


Suggestion: Read an educational Post....like #26, paragraph 6.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

win231 said:


> LOL! A quote from Jeff Cooper: _"It's a great caliber if you want to stop a canary...provided it was seriously wounded in the first place."_
> 
> Ya think he was exaggerating just a bit?


When I was a kid, it was widely 'known' by every snotty-nosed kid, that you could sneak up behind a parakeet and snap your fingers, and it would have a heart attack and drop dead.

I don't have any 'facts' about canaries, though. They must be even more delicate.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Bisley said:


> If Steve1911A1 tells me that a piss-ant can pull a freight train, I'm probably going to start hunting for a harness. He isn't infallible, of course, but the odds are to my personal liking. :mrgreen:


As Bugs Bunny used to say: "Ahhh, me public..." :yawinkle:


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

OldManMontgomery said:


> Yes, people, perhaps 'many' (how 'many' is that, a percentage of the total of murder victims?) have been murdered by pistols in .380 ACP. Many people have been murdered by pistols in caliber .32 ACP as well. Urban legend has it 'many' people have been murdered by ice picks.
> 
> So what?
> 
> ...


With all due respect one wouldn't know how one was murdered by a .380ACP caliber handgun unless you knew the facts surrounding that murder.

A 380ACP can kill and immobilze a human being as fast as any other handgun caliber.

To isolate all murders with any given caliber of handgun and then use that to determine it's effectiveness for self defense is an extremely weak and unsupported hypothesis in my opinion.

In other words your supposition is that a murder victim generally dies or succumbs much more easily to .380 bullets then the rest of the population?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

No, the .22 has not killed more blah blah blah blah blah
...

http://gunstuff-jd.blogspot.com/2013/03/but-22-has-killed.html?m=1

In the Ellifritz study referenced in the above artlcle (my own) while it has higher fatalities it does not have more than "all combined" when you take into account the criminal studies I referenced you can see that the .22 is not well represented.

The .22 had one of the lowest rates of incapacitation, in other words death took place AFTER the event had ended. Simply being shot with the .22 did not have much deterrence.

The .380 surprisingly did very well for a "sub service caliber".

Is it the best? Probably not but in some cases itay be the best choice.

P-SOUT

Closed.


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