# Defensive Ammo



## Wells85 (Mar 25, 2016)

My entire "Handgun owning" life I carried Federal Hydra-Shock in all my CCW Handguns. After a lot of research and ballistic review I recently started carrying Hornady Critical Defense. 
What do you carry for defense? 
Any thoughts on the Hornady Critical Defense?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

The Critical Defense didn't have all that great if barrier penetration, the Critical Duty is supposed to solve that problem.

Personally I carry either Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T


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## Wells85 (Mar 25, 2016)

Yeah I read critical duty is recommended for law enforcement. The only problem I saw with it is the average pentraction is well over 18". Where self defense ammo is recommended at 12-16". If I carried critical duty I wonder what situation I'd be in where I need to go through steel or auto glass.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The Federal Hydra-Shok line was replaced some years ago with their HST, which is rumored to stand for Hydra-Shok Two. The HST load is much better and more consistent in every caliber in which it is offered.

To answer your question, my preferences for defensive loads, in no particular order, is the Federal HST and the Speer Gold Dot JHP. In 9mm, I like the 124 grain +P loads. In .40S&W, I like the 165 grain loads (for Gold Dot I like the hotter load in this caliber). In .45ACP, I like the 230 grain +P HST.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> The Federal Hydra-Shok line was replaced some years ago with their HST, which is rumored to stand for Hydra-Shok Two. The HST load is much better and more consistent in every caliber in which it is offered.
> 
> To answer your question, my preferences for defensive loads, in no particular order, is the Federal HST and the Speer Gold Dot JHP. In 9mm, I like the 124 grain +P loads. In .40S&W, I like the 165 grain loads (for Gold Dot I like the hotter load in this caliber). In .45ACP, I like the 230 grain +P HST.


The HydraShock is still available and in production by Federal.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Truth-be-told, I don't get too uptight when it comes to self-defense ammo. I have a very good stock of many brands. 

I just make sure the caliber is right. :smt033


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

I picked up some Ruger ARX in 9mm to try the next time I"m at the range. (composite bullet)


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

VAMarine said:


> The HydraShock is still available and in production by Federal.


Thanks for the correction. I had thought by this time, Federal had phased it out in favor of their HST design, which is a lot better and a more reliable expanding round.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm still working through my stock of Remington Golden Sabre believe it or not.

The replacement, after I'm sure that my gun likes it 100%, will be Critical Defense. One, it was designed for the average guy where Duty was built to pass the FBI protocols of shooting through car doors, glass etc. That to me is over penitration that i don't need. Secondly, I understand that when you go to court the ammo you used will be brought up in court and possibly used against you. Thus the fact that my ammo's name is Critical _Defense_ can't hurt. It doesn't show prementitation.

As far as bullet performance goes, I'm sure all those other brands' magic self defense bullets look great in their tests. Further I'm sure those manufactures know what they're doing. But I think in the real world any those magic bullets will work if you hit your target where you should.

Finally, if ball ammo has been so effective in .45ACP all these years, then how is the difference between brand Y and brand X JHP going to make a difference?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Spike12 said:


> Secondly, I understand that when you go to court the ammo you used will be brought up in court and possibly used against you. Thus the fact that my ammo's name is Critical _Defense_ can't hurt. It doesn't show prementitation.


Highly unlikely, unless you live in New Jersey. This is going to depend upon in which state you reside.



Spike12 said:


> As far as bullet performance goes, I'm sure all those other brands' magic self defense bullets look great in their tests. Further I'm sure those manufactures know what they're doing. But I think in the real world any those magic bullets will work if you hit your target where you should.


There's no such thing as a magic bullet, however I do see your tongue-in-cheek humor in this.



Spike12 said:


> Finally, if ball ammo has been so effective in .45ACP all these years, then how is the difference between brand Y and brand X JHP going to make a difference?


Of course, a quality expanding bullet is nearly always going to be better than ball ammunition. The venerable .45 just made a larger hole.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

He was shot eight times (I believe) at point blank range with a .45acp.

He survived and is now out of the hospital and recuperating at home.

Idaho Pastor Shot, Critically Wounded After Delivering Prayer for Ted Cruz - NBC News


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## Wells85 (Mar 25, 2016)

With the drugs that are on the streets now turning people into zombies, in my opinion it's becoming more and more important that you choose ammo that Passes the heavy clothing test. Making sure your brand of ammo is causing as much cavitation as possible, because cavitation is where you get your knock down. And ammo that is shredding and sticking. A 9MM that shreds and sticks is most likely going to do more damage than a super charged, super caliber that just causes a through and through wound. Let's face it. You're most likely going to be standing 5-7 feet from the person you are engaging. When you start carrying ammo that goes through auto glass and steel plating you're loosing some of the fundamentals of self defense. And your right if you're on the stand trying to explain why it was necessary for you to fire into a vehicle...that's going to be costly.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Barrier penetration matters in a civilian context too, we spend a lot of time in and around cars and parking lots are a popular place to get jacked.


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## Hawk451 (Jan 13, 2016)

I like Federal HSTs: 230gr 45 ACP & 124gr 9mm, both in standard pressure. Also 135gr Speer Gold-Dot for short barrels in the J-frame.


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## Wyoming_1977 (Feb 24, 2016)




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## Wells85 (Mar 25, 2016)

VAMARINE I guess your right. Two situations I can think of is a gun fight in a parking lot or just around a single parked car and 2. If someone was attempting to carjack you, you might be forced to quickly draw and shoot through your own car door or window. I have an old car door off a Cavalier I could do some testing with. Do you guys matters too much how it reacts as long as it peniatrates the door completely? Or would you put something behind the door to simulate a person? If so what would you put behind the door?


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Oath Ammo
The entire Tango line consists of all precision machined Lead Free defense rounds that deliver the most reliable and unique penetration characteristics of any special purpose ammunition. The Tango series is the first defense projectile that delivers optimal energy transfer upon penetration.
OATH- Operators American Tactical Hardware . HANDGUN AMMO

Video's
OATH- Operators American Tactical Hardware . Videos


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## Wells85 (Mar 25, 2016)

I saw a demo on that RIP ammo in 9mm. It performed poorly. The talon like sharp edges basically fell apart, and the would cavity was the same as a 22LR.


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## muckaleewarrior (Aug 10, 2014)

9mm: 147 grain standard pressure HSTs, Gold Dots, or Golden Sabers are preferred but I will carry Hydra Shoks or similar if I am out (I had to carry FMJs for a while in 2013)

40s&w: 180 grain following the same pattern


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## Wyoming_1977 (Feb 24, 2016)

Wells85 said:


> I saw a demo on that RIP ammo in 9mm. It performed poorly. The talon like sharp edges basically fell apart, and the would cavity was the same as a 22LR.


*shrug* I wouldn't know. I was just trying to be helpful by showing some other options. I don't carry or feel like I need to. I'll mind my own business.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

As long as shooters feel there may be a better bullet yet to be manufactured, bullet manufacturers will make that very bullet year after year. :smt002


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## Wells85 (Mar 25, 2016)

I fired Hornady Critical Defense from my Glock 23 through a Cavalier car door and it performed very well not only did it penetrate it expanded and mushroomed. I'm pretty confident in carrying it. The FBI claims it goes well through auto glass. Lol I don't have any spare windshields laying around to test that one.


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## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

Wells85 said:


> VAMARINE I guess your right. Two situations I can think of is a gun fight in a parking lot or just around a single parked car and 2. If someone was attempting to carjack you, you might be forced to quickly draw and shoot through your own car door or window. I have an old car door off a Cavalier I could do some testing with. Do you guys matters too much how it reacts as long as it peniatrates the door completely? Or would you put something behind the door to simulate a person? If so what would you put behind the door?


I attended a handgun class last spring (I live in the Cinci area too) that dealt entirely with shooting around, into and out of vehicles. Very eye opening. No issues shooting thru the windshield from the driver's or passenger seat. The shots typically veered up slightly after passing thru the glass - we were shooting with mostly FMJ range ammo in calibers from .380 to .45 in pistols. The windshield never collapsed, but the rear window did with enough shot through it and side windows disappeared most of the time on the first shot.

The pillars were incredibly good barriers. We shot everything into them including a .41 and .556 - no complete penetration. Several of the rounds didn't even penetrate the doors if they hit the window mechanism.

I'm sure they will have a similar class this year - PM me if you'd like info on it.

Back to the subject at hand, I use Speer Gold Dots in my carry gun, either 115 grain or 124. And I still believe the rule of threes - most self defense shooting happen at 3 yards or less, require 3 rounds or less and happens in 3 seconds or less. (but ya, I still carry a spare mag). :mrgreen:


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

Wells85 said:


> I fired Hornady Critical Defense from my Glock 23 through a Cavalier car door and it performed very well not only did it penetrate it expanded and mushroomed. I'm pretty confident in carrying it. The FBI claims it goes well through auto glass. Lol I don't have any spare windshields laying around to test that one.


The lady who owns the Cavalier called and would like you to call and speak with her attorney.


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