# Here comes the band wagon......again.



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Protesters rally against police shooting of man in Utah

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2038778-155/slcpd-detectives-reviewing-cops-body-cam?fullpage=1

_"This is basically an execution"._ Are you freaking kidding me? :smt076


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Bringing a shovel to a gunfight is a new one on me. 
GW


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## Parson (Jan 7, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> _"This is basically an execution"._ Are you freaking kidding me? :smt076


Yeah... those are pretty harsh words. Officers get blamed all too often. Use of deadly force is bent in the negative too often. Fast reaction shooting is to stop, not kill. It's unfortunate the man died, but the officer probably reacted in fear for his life (a shovel can do some serious damage in all seriousness) and point-shot.

An execution would be more along the lines of the officer walking up behind him with his sidearm drawn, placing it against the man's head, then pulling the trigger. Accidental (or poor, or point-shoot, or whatever you want to call it) bullet placement is not execution. :-/


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

http://www.kutv.com/news/features/l...dly-Avenues-shooting-68064.shtml#.VLHrWqNOnFo

Here's the video.... honestly, does this guy appear to be a calm, gentle man?

The officer acted accordingly in my professional opinion. You violently attack a cop with a shovel and you're gonna deal with the consequences. There was no need to escalate this incident... but hey, some people arn't wired right.

Is cooperating that difficult? The officer was responding to a concerned citizens complaint and has an obligation to investigate the individual... why is this such a hard concept to grasp for some people? Any reason to protest I guess... most protesters probably had no idea what occurred either... but why let that stop em'.

Glad the officer only suffered some fractures and a broken arm.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

WOW. It is amazing to me how things can get out of hand so quickly, but I would not say the officer did anything wrong in any way here.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> WOW. It is amazing to me how things can get out of hand so quickly, but I would not say the officer did anything wrong in any way here.


One thing does come to mind. The fact that the officer allowed the suspect to grab the snow shovel.

That should have been a deal breaker.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> One thing does come to mind. The fact that the officer allowed the suspect to grab the snow shovel.
> 
> That should have been a deal breaker.


The suspect had the shovel in his hand from the beginning of the encounter. The officer didn't seem to know when the shovel was becoming an issue. I think that this should be used to train LEOs to keep a bit more distance between themselves and pissed off people with tools in their hands. From what I have seen the shoot was righteous. IMHO.
GW


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Unfortunately the so called protesting of police shootings has just begun........ More to come.......


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

TAPnRACK said:


> ...honestly, does this guy appear to be a calm, gentle man?...


"But he was such a good boy, Judge..."


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

goldwing said:


> The suspect had the shovel in his hand from the beginning of the encounter. The officer didn't seem to know when the shovel was becoming an issue. I think that this should be used to train LEOs to keep a bit more distance between themselves and pissed off people with tools in their hands. From what I have seen the shoot was righteous. IMHO.
> GW


Click on the link in my post and watch the video again. The suspect did not have it (shovel) in his hand from the start.

It wasn't until after the interview began, that the suspect reached over and took hold of it.

Okay, so I viewed the video in TAPnRACK's post. The video he posted did not start from the beginning. View the video in my post, and you will realize the error of your ways. :smt033


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I stand corrected. 
GW


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Situational awareness! The cop wasn't aware, and he should have been. 

It could have meant the difference between life and death......and it did.


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

Somewhat like the Zimmerman case. All the evidence showed Zimmerman told the truth and was attacked by the "kid".
The family only showed pictures of him as a 12 year old and not the strapping teenager he was when that shooting went down.
Tried in the Press is not a trial by law, peers and evidence.
Want to find out what any other facts of this case may be. The Body camera makes a bid difference. Do they also record sound or just video?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

They record both sound and video.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

He was out shoveling snow door to door, so to grab your shovel it might be perceived as let me get my things and be on my way.

The observation here I made was there was no snow to shovel.

He possibly could have been strong arming(bullying) or frightening people to let him shovel their snow that really did not need shoveling. Creating the police call

He most likely was desperate to get some money to support his drug habit. 

To be shoveling sidewalks n driveways for a living sends up a red flag of a drug addict issue.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Residents stated the same guy was out the other day looking in vehicles too. 

I agree that him grabbing the shovel was to be expected as it was his property and the officer was basically showing up to tell the guy to lost.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> He was out shoveling snow door to door, so to grab your shovel it might be perceived as let me get my things and be on my way.
> 
> The observation here I made was there was no snow to shovel.
> 
> ...


When I rolled up on a call, it was my call to let someone know when I was done with them. I owned the situation and the moment at the time.

Having stated that, when I was speaking to a suspect, they were never allowed to have anything in their hands. And if at all possible, I removed them from any areas that might prove to be favorable / beneficial to them.

The officer should have remained away from the base of the steps, and called the suspect out and away from the porch and out into the yard, leaving the shovel behind.

Shame that a field interview had to end up in the loss of a life. From the first month of having become a police officer, I had one premise in mind and I never once forgot it:

"*If you don't take **CONTROL** of the situation, the situation will take **CONTROL* *of you*".


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I just read a story where police shot a guy with a Samurai sword, and the family is suing b/c they say the police used excessive force. That he should have been able to have the sword as a means of defense. Well...I'm thinking ok...first, if the police stop to talk to you b/c you're carrying a sword into a restaurant, why are you going to have a confrontational attitude about it? Surely you can understand that it isn't something that is "common" and it is very likely going to alert people. 

This guy was acting very suspicious from what I saw in the video. The sidewalk didn't have any snow on it, and he seemed to be somewhat tense when the cop showed up, a sign that you may be doing something you think a cop is going to "get you" for. His girlfriend said that he looked very afraid in the video. Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, why be afraid of the cops? I know, I know...cops kill unarmed black people...ok, whatever. BULL!!! 

I know cops are trained to read people, and most people are not aware that over 70% of communication is given through body language, not what you say. This guy's body language was suspicious to me. I think if I were a cop, I would have maintained some distance, especially when the guy grabbed the shovel and started yelling. I don't care what sort of guy he "normally" was, that behavior was NOT calm or normal, nor was it warranted from the cop's questions. This sort of thing is exactly why cops are aloof and defensive a lot of the time. Sure, there are always the power-hungry jerks who get their jollies from pushing people around, but on the whole, cops are regular people doing a dangerous job that can explode in a second.


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> I just read a story where police shot a guy with a Samurai sword, and the family is suing b/c they say the police used excessive force. That he should have been able to have the sword as a means of defense. Well...I'm thinking ok...first, if the police stop to talk to you b/c you're carrying a sword into a restaurant,


Maybe the meat was very tough to cut in that restaurant?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> Police release 'bodycam' footage from deadly shooting in SLC - KUTV -
> 
> Here's the video.... honestly, does this guy appear to be a calm, gentle man?
> 
> ...


These injuries, or the threat of them, are grounds for the use of deadly force for private civilians.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> I just read a story where police shot a guy with a Samurai sword, and the family is suing b/c they say the police used excessive force. That he should have been able to have the sword as a means of defense. Well...I'm thinking ok...first, if the police stop to talk to you b/c you're carrying a sword into a restaurant, why are you going to have a confrontational attitude about it? Surely you can understand that it isn't something that is "common" and it is very likely going to alert people.


Okay, I can't resist. I am going to play devil's advocate with this for a moment if you don't mind. Suppose we substitute the reference to a sword to that of a gun? Now all of us are gun people and I'm quite sure most of us go to restaurants while armed. And most of us would be offended and quite put out if the police were called because of our actions.

I just read a story where police shot a guy with a holstered handgun, and the family is suing b/c they say the police used excessive force. That he should have been able to have the handgun as a means of defense. Well...I'm thinking ok...first, if the police stop to talk to you b/c you're carrying a handgun into a restaurant, why are you going to have a confrontational attitude about it? Surely you can understand that it isn't something that is "common" and it is very likely going to alert people.

See how that now looks? I go to restaurants all the time while armed. Just over the past week, I've been to three restaurants, all while armed and in one, openly armed. No problems, no screaming people grabbing their children and running for the door, and no one calling the police.

Now I will grant you that seeing someone enter a restaurant armed with a Samurai sword would definitely get my attention and put me on notice, what I just wrote above says a lot about the progress we've made towards going armed among the general public. This is good for us and good for everyone at large.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

BackyardCowboy said:


> Somewhat like the Zimmerman case. All the evidence showed Zimmerman told the truth and was attacked by the "kid".
> The family only showed pictures of him as a 12 year old and not the strapping teenager he was when that shooting went down.
> Tried in the Press is not a trial by law, peers and evidence.
> Want to find out what any other facts of this case may be. The Body camera makes a bid difference. Do they also record sound or just video?


Zimmerman was also attacked with a deadly weapon.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> These injuries, or the threat of them, are grounds for the use of deadly force for private civilians.


Absolutely.

It's a felonious Assault.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> I just read a story where police shot a guy with a Samurai sword...


Please, oh please, tell me how they did that.
All of the swords I have can only cut.

(I'm sorry about that. I waited and waited, hoping that my impulse would go away, but it wouldn't.)

Years ago, Leslie Charteris wrote a "Saint" story in which similar wordplay was a pleasant feature.
The passing comment in the story involved a missing person: "The body of the missing woman was found Wednesday by a tramp, in an advanced state of decomposition."
Our hero paused to contemplate what it must be like to travel all around England in an advanced state of decomposition. Who would give you a lift?


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

You shoulda seen the site!


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