# can it pierce kevlar?



## beenen (Jul 20, 2012)

I was just thinking about the recent shooting theater in Colorado about the shooter wearing a kevlar vest. now please excuse me but I am a total noob when it comes to this, but would a regular 9mm be able to pierce that kevlar? or what would you need to get through that stuff?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Kevlar vests are sold in different levels... The higher the level, the more armor protection it gives against stronger calibers... So, that plays a factor... But no, 9mm would not penetrate...


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

What would you need to defeat Kevlar vests?

A Head shot. Put rounds to the body and if they are ineffective, occular box to put the lights out.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Right on......... melon shots, the bad guy drops.

RCG


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

You have to practice it.
It's very difficult at any range but up-close-and-personal.

It used to be called "The Mozambique Drill":
You fire two shots to body center-mass, and _very quickly_ observe their effect.
If he hasn't begun to drop, you fire one shot to "head central."

Try that at 12 yards, and learn why you need to practice, practice, practice.

When you've mastered that, try it at 15 yards, after a quick, smooth presentation.

Finally, try it just after running seven yards to cover.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

The Mozambique or Failure drill are an absolute must for anyone who carries a pistol for defense. But it really is for "bad breath" distances. Not picking on you Steve as I know you are referring to pressing the skill level up, but at 15 yards (45 feet), I'd be moving and shooting. Why? Because it's highly likely that they won't be able to hit at that range either, but likely that they would react to incoming rounds in much the same manner. Very few people "stand and deliver" when the noisy end is barking at them. Move to cover and then open up on the dirtbag.

I often practice it starting at 3 yards, 5 yards, then 7, then 15, but at 15 yards, the split times increase to the point of almost not being practical. Why? Because if they are armored up, they can take their time to take their shot. I don't have that luxury, so I'd move to cover first.


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> Kevlar vests are sold in different levels... The higher the level, the more armor protection it gives against stronger calibers... So, that plays a factor... But no, 9mm would not penetrate...


I thought a 9 would go through a level one vest? Also I've heard from many that getting hit and having the vest stop the round hurts like hell. Someone drilling him would have certainly made him alter his course of action in some way. Bad situation all the way around. Tragic for those affected and ammunition for the anti 2nd crowd.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

the mozambique is a very good drill and most street level crime occurs within conversational reach.A BG isnt gonna stand 15 yds away and pull a gun to rob you,it is gonna be in your face.Carjackings are almost always in the same distance otherwise it wouldnt be a statistic as we could just drive off.I also practice firing from retention for a close encounter,although it usually results in a pelvic shot it will give you time to fire as you back up.I cant run so I practice to fight and stand my ground.I can still hit the ground and rollup firing.You need to be prepared for all situations


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I specified medium-range because of two considerations:

1. The question seemed to be based upon the recent Colorado tragedy. Any defensive shooting by an audience member would've been at medium range.

2. As *zhurdan* understands, you must practice your skill at an extended distance, in order to assure its utility at even the closest range.

Practicing only at "bad-breath distance" really assures very little, in terms of competence.
Under panic-stress, your performance will degrade, so you need to be able to do much better than merely perform to normal standards.
Although *zhurdan* is correct, that moving to cover would be an important component of this drill at medium distance, first you need to be able to do it with assured precision while standing still. Having conquered that hurdle, then you can begin working on the moving-and-shooting and move-first-then-shoot components.


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Kevlar penetrators would be something like the military version of the 5.7x28 FN, the old .22 Jet, the Super 9 might do it depending of the vest. Small caliber high velocity. Most any rifle caliber. In the Colorado case, the shooter was probably safe against most anything someone in the audience would be carrying. How he would have reacted if 4 or 5 people opened up on him is open for debate. Head shots in a darkened theater with a couple of hundred panicked theater goers running about - not a good place to be.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Sgt45 said:


> Kevlar penetrators would be something like the military version of the 5.7x28 FN, the old .22 Jet, the Super 9 might do it depending of the vest. Small caliber high velocity. Most any rifle caliber. In the Colorado case, the shooter was probably safe against most anything someone in the audience would be carrying. How he would have reacted if 4 or 5 people opened up on him is open for debate. Head shots in a darkened theater with a couple of hundred panicked theater goers running about - not a good place to be.


That's why most people who are serious about carrying a gun for defense either carry a flashlight or have one attached to their gun. Still not an easy task, but an essential piece of gear. A person is going to have a hard time shooting something they can't see.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I would suggest reading this thread... I know its on another forum, but I hope the moderators let it go, because it has some fantastic information:

Recent events and rethinking CCW caliber... - M4Carbine.net Forums

There are some good thoughts there (on that thread). I personally have no intention of changing my carry weapon or caliber just because of this incident...


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

When I read these threads I don't know if the assuption is no one really practices. Or really knows the correct way to practice. If so why is it the case? 

RCG


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

recoilguy said:


> When I read these threads I don't know if the assuption is no one really practices. Or really knows the correct way to practice. If so why is it the case?
> 
> RCG


Rhetorical question: Have you ever been to the local gun range and watched what most people who shoot think is "training"?

Not sure about where you live Recoil, but for the most part, the vast majority of people I run into are at the range to pull the trigger as fast as they can, regardless of where the rounds go. Just to get their kicks. The percentage of people that show up with a purpose is far smaller. Take 20 minutes and peruse YouTube for gun videos. I'd say a good 95% of the videos on there have absolutely nothing to do with actual training. Nothing to do with accuracy and proficiency. I'd say the number drops when talking about people who frequent gun forums, but probably not as much as it should.

Some things I pick up on that have a real world relation (my experiences and those of people I personally know) is that people who own 5-6 different platforms, without purpose (meaning it doesn't fill a practical niche) and are overly concerned about a small scratch on their heirloom grade pistol, aren't using them for genuine practice. It's a show piece. A conversation starter. An extension of their E-peen so to speak. Kinda like the guy we all know that has an F-350 with a 6" lift kit, mudder tires and boosted exhaust and their truck has never been off the pavement.

Now, I'm not saying that valuing the condition of your investment is a bad thing, but there's a stark difference in folks who take care of their stuff and those who baby it. There's a stark difference between people who say their pistol is "flawless" after firing 200 rounds thru it and those that have run their gun thru thousands of practical and beneficial practice. There's a stark difference between people who say they've _NEVER_ had a malfunction and those that have shot them enough to actually wear out a part.

I'm not trying to be snobby, but it's kinda like someone saying they're as good a driver in their stock WRX as "The Stig" from Top Gear. There's just a multitude of differences between owning a gun and shooting a gun.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Understood........ I know exactly what you mean now. When I read this at first, my scope was far too narrow. Sometimes when I am at the LGS and I hear what people say I want to slap the sales guy for even thinking of selling a gun to someone like that. Then I realize OMG its the sales guy talking!!!!!

Practice is important in everything, when you handle a gun I would think it is paramount!

Thank you for helping me widen my eyes, I understand completely now.

RCG


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

Steve M1911A harps about training training training :mrgreen:

And he's right.

I've been through the police academy in 2 states - I have Army training ... and I shoot local self defense competitions 

I still feel I'm not properly trained 

Luckily I've drawn my gun in self defense only twice - and neither time resulted in firing a shot (thank God) .

But I can tell you when the adrenalin is pumping and you're out of breath ... you better have practiced.

And you will still probably miss 

By the way I too have no plans to change the caliber of gun I carry because of the murders in Colorado.

:smt1099


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## Map9690 (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok all you guys are on the right track but missing the point. An average conceal carry citizen will not have experience doing a so called Mozambique drill. Seriously? Most people shoot at 7 yards as is standard for self diffence. And yes an expert would find cover and choose his/her shoots as is dictated by the situation. With the Colorado shooting however, if holmes had been in the bible belt. EX: texas ,Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia. There would have been at least 5 out of 200 that had a gun. And let me tell you beenen I carry a glock 34 with 17 round mag and if you can connect that many shots to center mass it will drop someone regardless of Kevlar. Will it penetrate? No. But it will stop them from what they are doing and allow you to move closer and execute that headshot. However, practice is essential. If you can't react when it is most crucial the your s.o.l. And the reason I go to a range and fire quickly, for instances like this. End points of training; find a grip and stance you are comforitable with and practice your target shooting. There are so many options out there and I see different shooting techniques. Ex; front sight and top shot participants.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Map9690 said:


> ...An average conceal carry citizen will not have experience doing a so called Mozambique drill...


Experience or no, practiced shooter or rank beginner, _any response at all_ would've saved lives.
Even a failed attempt at the Mozambique Drill would have been better than screaming while running toward an exit.



dondavis3 said:


> Steve M1911A harps about training training training...


Well, Don, actually I've said that training is not enough, so I harp upon practice, practice, practice.
But, yes, you should never stop learning. Training is good, and more training is even better.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Smart man that Steve... people should listen to him and stuff. Props Steve.... props.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I dunno, zhur...
I can never tell whether you're being complimentary, ironic, or snarky.
...And stuff.

I guess that I'll think the best, and gracefully accept the compliment.
Thank you.


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## goNYG (Apr 4, 2012)

*Pierce? Irrelevant*



Map9690 said:


> Ok all you guys are on the right track but missing the point. An average conceal carry citizen will not have experience doing a so called Mozambique drill. Seriously? Most people shoot at 7 yards as is standard for self diffence. And yes an expert would find cover and choose his/her shoots as is dictated by the situation. With the Colorado shooting however, if holmes had been in the bible belt. EX: texas ,Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia. There would have been at least 5 out of 200 that had a gun. And let me tell you beenen I carry a glock 34 with 17 round mag and if you can connect that many shots to center mass it will drop someone regardless of Kevlar. Will it penetrate? No. But it will stop them from what they are doing and allow you to move closer and execute that headshot. However, practice is essential. If you can't react when it is most crucial the your s.o.l. And the reason I go to a range and fire quickly, for instances like this. End points of training; find a grip and stance you are comforitable with and practice your target shooting. There are so many options out there and I see different shooting techniques. Ex; front sight and top shot participants.


I think Map9690 is on to something...why are we even talking about "piercing"? Some shots will and some won't depending on caliber, speed, distance...But that doesn't mean that shots to center mass don't have an effect. A 9mm bullet shot at 15 feet into the chest of a person wearing the IIIA vests that NYPD cops wear will put that person on the floor, no question. A 40 or 45 slug from same just might break a rib. Just because bullet isn't inside your body tearing your vitals to shreds, doesn't mean it isn't working to stop you from doing bad things. Mozambique? Head shots? C'mon. Beefy NYPD cops take hits to the vest all the time and they all hit the deck...Holmes looks to be of average build, he could have been neutralized fairly simply regardless of what he was wearing.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

@ Steve M1911A 

I thought it was training you harped about .:mrgreen:

But it is practice practice practice 

My bad :anim_lol:

But you're right both are good.

:smt1099


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I dunno, zhur...
> I can never tell whether you're being complimentary, ironic, or snarky.
> ...And stuff.
> 
> ...


I do try to keep people guessing, but in this case, I was serious.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

I think "the problem" in Aurora for anyone who could have been carrying was a "REAL problem".

In this environment, most (all?) people have been conditioned to almost expect "fun stuff" before
the movie starts. This was already "out" as "trailers" for the movie. You would have to recognize
amongst the smoke and noise/flash this is real killing. Not an "enhancement to your movie experience".

I think the person who could actually understand they were in a real kill zone during the seconds this occurred
would be quite rare. Would you actually fire at a person who might be nothing more than a movie theater stunt ?
I'm afraid I would not be up to that task.

YMMV. :smt1099


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

While I agree... sort of, there's a distinct difference between blanks and live rounds. More-so because they simply WOULDN'T come into a theater firing a blank gun at the crowd. Too many liabilities. I've been shot "near" before and I can tell you for a fact that it is VERY disconcerting and very different than a T-shirt cannon going off, or some guy pulling a "party popper" firework. Perhaps some people who haven't been around guns all that much may not recognized the tell tale signs of muzzle flash and percussive force, but I for one would and I'd have _tried_ to drop his ass as soon as possible.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...And talk about liability!
If an "entertainer" came out, on stage, dressed as Holmes was and firing only blanks out at the crowd, and if someone in the audience was carrying, got alarmed, and cut him down, I will bet that the concealed-carrier's response would pass the "reasonable man" test, and that the theater owner and manager would be held liable for the death of the "entertainer."

Riddle me that one, Batman!


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And talk about liability!
> If an "entertainer" came out, on stage, dressed as Holmes was and firing only blanks out at the crowd, and if someone in the audience was carrying, got alarmed, and cut him down, I will bet that the concealed-carrier's response would pass the "reasonable man" test, and that the theater owner and manager would be held liable for the death of the "entertainer."
> 
> Riddle me that one, Batman!


It's possible the CCW dude could prevail in their trial. Personally, I agree it would be "reasonable".
But, I am just an old right-wing gun nut white man, reformed from a left-wing liberal "young man" by a REALLY close call.

But, in a Denver CO suburb ? This might be a big stretch to "get off scott-free". I'd guess manslaughter at a minimum.
In any case, the person would lose REALLY big-time in legal costs.
See "George Zimmerman" vs. young black man casing houses in the rain under the influence of "Lean".


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## Map9690 (Aug 2, 2012)

Ya. And with that many people scrambling around can you imagine a beginner firing wildly into a crowd. Even if the intentions are good it would be hard as hell to get a clear line of sight. Maybe if you were in the first 3 rows or so. I want to know why an alarm didn't go off when he opened the emergency door before the movie started.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

DanP_from_AZ said:


> It's possible the CCW dude could prevail in their trial...But, in a Denver CO suburb ? This might be a big stretch to "get off scott-free". I'd guess manslaughter at a minimum...


The gun-toter would also get a chance at the theater owner, in civil court, for steep damages.
There, too, there's a good chance that he would prevail and, maybe, even be made whole.



Map9690 said:


> Ya. And with that many people scrambling around can you imagine a beginner firing wildly into a crowd...


Three responses:
1. That's why a gun-toter can't just put a gun on his belt and think himself ready for action. Do you carry a gun without really knowing how to use it?
2. That's why a gun-toter has to practice, practice, practice. If you don't practice, you don't make hits under pressure and while experiencing a confusing environment.
3. Some kind of response would've been better than no response at all. Even a peripheral hit would've stopped this fight.

Holmes is a power-and-control fantasizer, living is a self-created dream world. One wounding hit would've brought him back to reality really quickly. He would then either have exited whimpering, stage left, or fallen to the floor and started crying.


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## Dragonheart (Jan 30, 2012)

As far as the shooting in Colorado it was mistakenly reported that the shooter was wearing body armor. What the FBI found was he actually was wearing a tactical vest, which is typical nylon with multiple pockets for magazines. This type of vest would have offered no protection from a typical handgun caliber unless the round hit a magazine and stopped or deflected. Had anyone been able to return fire, whether they were capable of a head shot or not, I think the outcome would have been quite different. 

The posts that comment on the lack of skill of the average person with a concealed carry are quite accurate.


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