# How would you defend yourself at contact distance? Fighting inside the hole.



## tacman605 (Oct 11, 2012)

Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry

I am not endorsing any technique, school, firearm, ammo, training or method. I am not claiming to have developed or discovered anything mentioned in this post. I have trained in the techniques listed with both simunitions and live fire drills and still have all my fingers and toes so take it for what it is worth.

No this is not a topic about fighting in a crater or cave. In law enforcement and training circles "The Hole" is the contact distance of zero to six feet. It is someplace you do not want to be if confronted with a lethal force situation.
A person armed with a bat, broken bottle, knife, corkscrew or simply his hands does not have to be a master of ninja skills to cause you great bodily harm at this distance.
Before you shout "I would never let him get that close to me"!!! Most if not all of us do it everyday and never think about it. Public restrooms, hallways, standing in line at McDonalds, waiting rooms at the doctors office, sitting in the lounge at the wal mart auto department waiting on the oil to get changed.
Unless you prepare for fighting at this distance you will not survive the encounter, there simply is not enough time.

For years it was taught simply get out of the hole, create distance which is great and is still a viable option but only works if the bad guy stood still and let you create that distance but the problem was they often pursued so no greater increase in distance was created. Now you were attempting to back peddle and attempt to draw your gun at the same time or had turned with your back to the bad guy with no way to fend off his attack.

But what if you looked at it this way. What if instead of creating distance you learned how to fight in the hole. Instead of backing off you created not space but time to draw your weapon.

If you are not familiar with the "Tueler Drill" you should be. It was the determination of a cop and his teaching and preaching the "21 Foot Rule" that is in use today. The bad guy can close from a distance of 21 feet and cause you harm before you can draw your gun and engage the threat.
Don't believe it try it sometime with a redgun or simunitions or toy. Have someone stand 21 feet from you and when they are ready charge. Can you get to your firearm and engage the threat? Remember reaction is slower than action.

Now imagine the same thing from six feet. What would you do? How would you react? Some techniques that are used for the Tueller drill can be adapted and used here with good results.
Lateral movement, quickly sidestepping the direct attack while reaching for and drawing your weapon.

The J hook, moving to the side and in the same direction your attacker just came from. This forces him to have to stop forward momentum and redirect in the opposite direction.
Supine, what the heck is that? Supine is just the opposite of prone. You are on your back whether by choice or the force of initial contact has put you there. You can draw, fire and accurately engage a threat from this position.

The one drawback to all this? You have to practice the techniques to see what works for you and what doesn't. I dont know about you but I am 51 years old and my body does not react the way it used to.
You must be at a higher level of proficiency with your firearm for these techniques to work. You must be able to hit a moving target at close range with most shooting done with the elbow locked in and without the use of the sights, at this distance you will not get a second chance.
You must get instruction or teach yourself to fire as soon as the weapon clears the holster and your body. You will not wait for center mass shots.

You will begin shooting as soon as the weapon clears you and is on him. It will not matter if the first shot strikes him in the thigh, then groin, then abdomen, then chest as you bring the weapon up they are all hits that cause pain and trauma that will hopefully either cause him to lose interest in you for the time being or mechanically break him so he goes down and stops the pursuit or the attack. Only after engaging and creating distance would the arms be fully extended and have any portion of a sight picture.

Well hopefully I have given you something to think about and post on. Please give opinions, options ask questions.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

Very good points to think about. We carry our weapons for the SHTF moment in life, we really should be ready for it. IMO I believe we owe that to ourselves and our loved ones. Bouncing off the X and shooting from retention positions is something most have never heard of, and have never trained to do. I agree with you on getting instruction or teaching yourself, it really is not the difficult, but should be considered if you carry a weapon....


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Several posts have been removed:

Last I checked this is the *Tactics and Technique* section of the forum, what's the issue with this thread???

Guys, if you don't want to participate, simply don't post.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, what topic should the man have posted this under?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TurboHonda said:


> Just out of curiosity, what topic should the man have posted this under?


This is the correct sub-forum, my previous comment was posted in regards to several removed posts.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanks. Didn't see the removed posts and was confused.


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## tacman605 (Oct 11, 2012)

Guess I missed them. 

I am a bit confused. If you don't want posts about tactics and techniques in the tactics and techniques sub forum you need to change the name to I love my Barbie or something.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

tacman605 said:


> Guess I missed them.
> 
> I am a bit confused. If you don't want posts about tactics and techniques in the tactics and techniques sub forum you need to change the name to I love my Barbie or something.


Yeah, I don't get it either, but I'm one of those guys and goes and trains....:horsepoo:

Regarding fighting in the hole... it depends, if we're defending against an edged or other contact weapon, and you have some good hand to hand skills, you're probably better off getting control of the weapon hand and striking the opponent, then creating distance, j-hooking etc. and get your gun into play. The gun is not always the right option.

If the person is right on top of you, you need to act immediately with hands or a knife etc. Semi-autos can get nasty at true bad breath distance. They can be forced out of battery, thus inoperable which is a huge selling point for your carry revolvers. There have been some cases where autos have actually gotten their actions jammed with chunks of flesh from the attacker....

The wife and I are heading back to TDI next fall for their *ECQ class:*


> We believe this unusual, innovative class to be the first of its kind ever offered. No one weapon is the sole answer. You may well have to engage with your hands prior to deploying another weapon. ECQ integrates the use of the hands, knives and handguns in the extreme close quarter's environment.
> Learn weapon retention and takeaway, physical interaction with hands and other weapons. Deal with single and multiple assailants. Learn to protect your partner/family member in the ECQ environment. This class is not for the faint at heart and a must for law enforcement professionals and citizens alike.


To better address close range issues, for those looking for more localities for such training, I know Suarez Intl. has *Close Range Gun Fighting* and *0-5'* Gun Fighting, both are classes I want to attend.

We're also both studying Krav Maga and that's going well, we're about a month and a half in and it's good to knock the dust off the H2H skills, we won't be doing any of the advanced weapons related stuff till much later down the road, but even with the basics it gives you some options for dealing with close range threats.

Regarding the references to stats...


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## tacman605 (Oct 11, 2012)

Good for you. If I ever get back in the CONUS I want and need to go to some of TDI's or Suarez courses.

Krav Maga has always appealed to me will have to see what I can find.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

tacman605 said:


> Good for you. If I ever get back in the CONUS I want and need to go to some of TDI's or Suarez courses.
> 
> *Krav Maga has always appealed to me will have to see what I can find*.


I'm kind of amazed that we have it available where we're at now. MMA is kind of a big thing in Iowa so that may have influenced it but had you told me a year ago that we'd have a Krav class in the more rural area of central Iowa, I wouldn't have believed it. If I can stick with it for 4-5 years I may try and get certified to instruct in it.

Definitely get to TDI when you can, we love it so much I almost want to relocate to Ohio to be closer to it.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> I'm kind of amazed that we have it available where we're at now. MMA is kind of a big thing in Iowa so that may have influenced it but had you told me a year ago that we'd have a Krav class in the more rural area of central Iowa, I wouldn't have believed it. If I can stick with it for 4-5 years I may try and get certified to instruct in it.
> 
> Definitely get to TDI when you can, we love it so much I almost want to relocate to Ohio to be closer to it.


Are you taking regular or private lessons. I had some private lessons and loved it. I was still smoking at the time, so regular lessons would have killed me. TDI must be real good. Dave Spaulding is going to be in my area in May, I will be attending....:mrgreen:


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Disregard Frogger, that is TriColordad, aka CamouflageSamuri or something, enough of his pot-stirring. Might be time for an IP block.



Harryball said:


> Are you taking regular or private lessons. I had some private lessons and loved it. I was still smoking at the time, so regular lessons would have killed me. TDI must be real good. Dave Spaulding is going to be in my area in May, I will be attending....:mrgreen:


Regular lessons, Mondays and Wednesdays. I quite the smoking a couple of years ago and it's still having negative effects. Don't have the wind that I used too. TDI is great, I really can't say enough good things about the place.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> Disregard Frogger, that is TriColordad, aka CamouflageSamuri or something, enough of his pot-stirring. Might be time for an IP block.
> 
> Regular lessons, Mondays and Wednesdays. I quite the smoking a couple of years ago and it's still having negative effects. Don't have the wind that I used too. TDI is great, I really can't say enough good things about the place.


My wind is gone, I am trying to work on it. Its only been 6 weeks, but I do notice a difference. I think I am going to have to check out TDI myself. It seems a lot of folks like the place.


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## tacman605 (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok thanks VAMarine. 

Wow CamouflageSamuri? Really.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

tacman605 said:


> Ok thanks VAMarine.
> 
> Wow CamouflageSamuri? Really.


Yeah. :numbchuck:


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Harryball said:


> *My wind is gone, I am trying to work on it*. Its only been 6 weeks, but I do notice a difference. I think I am going to have to check out TDI myself. It seems a lot of folks like the place.


OK, don't laugh, but check out various back bends....

Part of Yoga, supposed to help increase lung capacity.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> OK, don't laugh, but check out various back bends....
> 
> Part of Yoga, supposed to help increase lung capacity.


If it helps, Ill try it. The wife will do it with me, If she is happy I get another gun. Worth a try...LMAO


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## Nanuk (Oct 13, 2012)

To the original post.

As Va has posted as close distance for me I will generally go hands on. You must factor in that me is not everyone. I am a pretty big guy and have trained in Tae Kwon Do, wrestling, PPCT as well as the crap that they teach cops, coupled with over 25 years as a street cop.

That being said if my attacker has a knife/bottle,club yes I will take the defensive wound and go to guns. If he is unarmed, he is going to need to be really good for me to go to guns. What scares me is the knife I don't see.

I have been in a few fights with guys way faster than me (usually the little boxer gang bangers) I have found that while very fast they lack enough power to do anything more than annoy me. Fortunately for me they were unarmed. 

I saw this study the FBI did where they distilled assaults on police and assigned a weighted scale by:

Size/Strength
Skill
Conditioning

As it was weighted size was the most important with skill being the equalizer in the middle and conditioning being last. If there is a disparity of size, the smaller guy needs more skill to over come this, conditioning only comes in if the parties are more evenly matched. 

I can only remember one fight where conditioning was really an issue. I had chased this car thief for 3 blocks before he turned and fought. We fought for 10 minutes (when I called out last on the radio) until back up officers found us in an alley. I was totally exhausted. He went to the hospital for his injuries, broken arm, collarbone, ribs where I discovered he was on PCP/heroin.

I always stress training!


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## tacman605 (Oct 11, 2012)

> PPCT as well as the crap that they teach cops


LOL Yep been there done that. In a controlled situation, aka the academy, it works great on the street with an immune to pain street thug no so well.

Like you the knife seems to worry me more than a gun.


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## Nanuk (Oct 13, 2012)

The other thing I wanted to touch on here is where and how you carry your gun. When I wear a jacket I like my shoulder holster. I use a Galco jackass rig and I like it because it is comfortable, it allows for 2 mags on the off side and also allows for concealment of a larger gun. The down side is that to draw from a SH you must cross your body and it is slower to draw in a get off me scenario.

I have been using AIWB almost exclusively for the last year and I really like it. I am also a huge proponent of a BUG, just like redundant safeties. My BUG is my 640 Pro loaded with 125 grn DPX maggies and that I carry AIWB while the big gun is in the SH. My BUG floats depending on dress and situation. I just don't like it so deep I can't get to it. I like the J frame for the BUG, because if it comes to that IT MUST WORK. 

Depending on the situation the BUG may become the primary to make time/space to get the big kahuna out.


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## tacman605 (Oct 11, 2012)

I ride a lot when home and have found that AIWB works well to. My worries about my shirt or vest riding up showing my gun are gone.

I use the same shoulder rig as you do with my heavier guns it does balance and conceals well under riding clothes. I have the .38 pro port J frame which fits the need as a BUG or very light primary for short trips or around the neighborhood. I started using the Galco J hook holsters for a lot of AIWB carry and recently got a Dale Fricke Archangel for my Glock 19 but have not had the chance to use it yet.

I purchased a Vintage Colt Detective Special awhile back but it was in such mint condition I have not had the heart to shoot or carry it yet. The extra round in the Colt in about the same size as the J frame would work nicely for a BUG on trips.

As much as I like the shoulder rig it does bother me that you have to use a cross body draw which if someone was close enough it would cause problems. What I decided was that if I needed to draw from it I would put step back with my right foot and assume a cover position using my off hand to shield my head and at least no one would get between my arm and the gun.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Wow, those FBI statistics tell it all. I'd use the offhand to the perps face technique while drawing then shooting from the hip w/ the pistol angled away from my waist, being careful not to shoot my offhand in the process.


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