# I'll be first, I need some advice



## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Well I may have to make an amendment to my post in the "For The Married Guys" thread in the "OFFBEAT AREA". Please don't flame me if you see me discussing this topic in other threads.

I have done some reading and talked to a guy at my gun shop whose opinion I value and have learned some very discouraging things about the Taurus Millennium series. My gun shop doesn't even keep them in stock anymore because they got tired of sending them off for warranty work. I have heard about Taurus's CS being poor of late and various problems with their Millennium line, feeding problems, frames cracking!?! etc. We had settled on the Taurus PT111 for her because she has small hands and it fits her very well, the slide is easy to rack (she will be working on her hand strength so she will have more options for a second gun), and the price is reasonable. She shot a SW 38special and does NOT want a revolver.

Any of you guys have suggestions about what to look at? I would love to get her an XD9SC and we will also be looking at the Walther P99 but on the other hand we're wanting to stay under/around $450.00 (or less!!). Any suggestions will be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Ben


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

A reliable, quality autoloader fit for small hands and under $450 is a steep order.

Have you tried or looked at a Ruger P95? It's a larger gun, but should fill the bill in (most) all of the other areas.

You might find a used XD or Glock 19 for around/under $450 if you keep your eyes open. Stick with the 9mm for less recoil, less expensive shooting, and a lower cost on most used guns.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

HMPH, well maybe we'll have to spend more than we wanted to. This is not going to be a short-term purchase so I do not want to compromise on quality. Fortunately gun shopping is fun.

Ben


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

themayer78 said:


> ...
> This is not going to be a short-term purchase so I do not want to compromise on quality.
> ...


That's a darn good thing to remember while shopping. :smt023

Spending a bit more may open up some more options, but even then, a list of proven and reliable autos of at least 9mm caliber that will fit small hands is still a short list. There are many new-to-the-market guns that will fit small hands, but are unproven, or relatively so. There are many proven guns that are not the smallest, but may be able to be managed by a person with smaller hands, given some training and practice. Finally, there are at least a few small guns with decent track records, designed primarily for concealed carry, but some are so small and light they can be unpleasant to shoot.

Have her hold a few models, check her finger's reach to the trigger when the trigger in the farthest forward position, see if she can work the slide, and keep a list of problems with each one you reject. For instance, seeing a list of guns that you both thought were too large hands/grip might help give us a better idea of her hand size.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Thanks for the advice and suggestion of taking notes. That's a really good idea. I have always liked the way the Ruger P95 felt in hand but have never fired it. I just found the Ruger SR9... looks like a good gun. Doesn't look compact but it is definitely one we will be looking out for. I have to say I'm really looking forward to seeing the LCP in person. I know it's only a .380 and the spitting image of the Kel-Tec, but it just looks nicer, better constructed than the Kel-Tec.

I don't know why the sudden Ruger kick. I guess they are a trusted name and reasonably priced. And I don't know why they get knocked for being so ugly. Glocks are about the ugliest gun I've ever seen and they have a cult following that eludes me.

Again I would love to see her settle on (not _for_!!) the XD9SC (to match my 4"45C - such a great gun) but I think it might be a little too wide for her to carry. She is very excited about the search for the right gun for her. I'm sure I will have an update within a few days.

Thanks again

Ben


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*small hands*

themayer78: Sir; Stating the obvious first. 
about any of the "double stacks" have 'big' handles. By nature; to get that many rounds in them.
Ruger SR9 got around ?partly? this problem. 
.380's back again:mrgreen:

Jumping away for the Semi's for thought purpose. 
Revolvers have smaller Handhold
Revolvers are suited to many many different rounds
Revolvers are ?more reliable? [opened a can of worms]
Revolvers can be made light. J frame
Revolvers are less susceptible to dirt [another can of worms]

Sir; I carry at different time GP100, SW638, Glock 17 Glock 22 SW Model 10

My favorite are the Rugers, I have others, Carring the 638 daily I haven't ever feared to be undergunned. 5+6 bad people haven't shown up yet.

Follow up. Thanks


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Craig,

Thanks for the suggestions. I have to say revolvers have been ruled out. She liked the idea of a revolver for all the reasons you listed. Then we borrowed a friends' S&W 38 spec the other day and while I had a blast shooting it her experience can be described as almost traumatic. It was too loud (Yes we had ear protection) and kicked too much. Surely with more experience she will be able to handle a 38 better but shooting that gun a few days ago was anything but fun for her. We also shot a Walther P22, VERY fun to shoot but wouldn't buy one until we both have SD-worthy guns; a full size Glock 9mm (not sure of model), I really dislike Glocks, she liked it but wants a smaller frame; and a Taurus 1911, great gun; and last but not least she shot my XD for the first time. She liked my XD but does not want a 45 for her first gun. I on the other hand feel like I have absolutely purchased the perfect first gun for myself:mrgreen:. I hope we can find a gun she will be as happy with.

Until next time,

Ben


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

I have pretty small hands for a guy, and I thought the trigger reach on the XD9 was pretty short. I could be wrong though. Maybe have her try out a CZ Rami. That's all I can think of at the moment...

-Jeff-


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## kenn (Dec 13, 2007)

themayer78 said:


> I have done some reading and talked to a guy at my gun shop whose opinion I value and have learned some very discouraging things about the Taurus Millennium series. My gun shop doesn't even keep them in stock anymore because they got tired of sending them off for warranty work. I have heard about Taurus's CS being poor of late and various problems with their Millennium line, feeding problems, frames cracking!?! etc. We had settled on the Taurus PT111 for her because she has small hands and it fits her very well, the slide is easy to rack (she will be working on her hand strength so she will have more options for a second gun),


That's weird, I own a T Mil and love it.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

The Walther PPS in 9mm would probably be a great gun, but you won't get it for under $600. Have you looked at a PPK in .380ACP? They're super small and go for around $500 or so.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> The Walther PPS in 9mm would probably be a great gun, but you won't get it for under $600. Have you looked at a PPK in .380ACP? They're super small and go for around $500 or so.


The PPS is a very cool looking gun, but it is quite expensive. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one someday and putting a few rounds through it.

-Jeff-


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

A Bersa Thunder .380 might fit your requirements on price and SD.

They are a highly reliable blowback design similar to Walther PPK. The low bore axis and small (but effective) .380ACP caliber should address her recoil concerns.

Bersas also have the slide stop that's missing on the PPK design.

Lipseys sells a tutone for $294.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

submoa said:


> Bersas also have the slide stop that's missing on the PPK design.


PPKs don't lock the slide back?


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> PPKs don't lock the slide back?


An empty mag locks the PPK slide back. To close the action, you rack the slide.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Kenn, I'm glad to hear you have not had problems with your T Mil. I wouldn't tell someone that I think Taurus makes bad guns, I'm just hesitant to spend my hard earned money on one after reading about all of the problems other T Mil owners have had. Which model do you have? How many rounds so far? And no probs at all for you? No FTF or FTE at all?


My Dad has a PPK/S .380. Definitely a high quality gun. I don't like shooting it because the slide cuts my hand and the sights are just awful. I know this gun won't be for me but I want to be able to enjoy shooting it too! I didn't even know they made a PPK in 9mm, interesting. We looked at the Bersa PPK replica, she liked the way it felt but had trouble racking the slide although come to think of it I think she had a much easier time of it when she pulled the hammer down first. We will be going to a local gun store that almost always has just about every gun made in stock. Too bad their prices are ridiculous, good place to browse though.

Ben


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Yes, the PPK slide *does *lock with an empty mag.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Okay, so the slide locks back on an empty mag, but you can't manually activate a slide catch when you rack the slide? That's stupid. On the XD you have to use the slide catch to turn the takedown lever for a field strip.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

themayer78 said:


> I didn't even know they made a PPK in 9mm


Ben,

PPK is available in .32ACP or .380ACP. .380ACP is also known as 9mm _kurz_ aka 9mm Browning short aka 9mm _corto_. .380ACP is 9x17mm.

Most of us talking about 9mm rounds are usually referring to 9mm Luger (Parabellum) which is 9x19mm.

Many calibers have a 9mm diameter but different lengths and the brass is a different between revolver and auto ammo.

.380ACP should not be confused with .38Super or .38Special or .38S&W. or .38 Long Colt or .38 Short Colt.

Nor should 9mm Luger be confused with 9mm Makarov or 9mm Kurz.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Okay, so the slide locks back on an empty mag, but you can't manually activate a slide catch when you rack the slide? That's stupid. On the XD you have to use the slide catch to turn the takedown lever for a field strip.


The PPK is the compact version of the Walther PP - ie. PP Kurz. The PP was introduced in 1929 (PPK 1931) and has been continuously manufactured since. PPK is the standard for small concealable semi. For years, the only real competition was the Mauser HSc but it was only available in .32 until the 70s. Neither has a slide stop.

To field strip a PPK, you set the safety, lower the triggerguard and pull the slide back and off. The barrel is fixed in the frame and the recoil spring is coaxial to the barrel.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

themayer78 said:


> trouble racking the slide although come to think of it I think she had a much easier time of it when she pulled the hammer down first.


Generally, the smaller the gun the stiffer the recoil spring. Deal with it.

DA/SA guns have a heavier DA trigger pull (hammer on slide) although PPK is one of the heaviest.

When I got my wife her PPK she had the same difficulty. Here's what works:

Slide - grasp the grip in right hand (finger outside triggerguard!). With left hand, grasp the slide serrations FROM THE TOP OF THE SLIDE. Her arms should form an 'O' rather than a 'V'. Rotate her body so the pistol points downrange. Rather than pulling the slide, 'hug' the gun and the slide should rack easier.

DA trigger - Most people fail to practise this in training with a DA/SA gun (after reload, hammer is back ready for SA trigger) Have her exhale when squeezing the trigger. A lot of people hold their breath when shooting. If this doesn't work and you are truly training her for self defense, have her Ki-ai (karate scream) when squeezing the trigger. Not only will this give her more strength to operate the trigger, it will make her look psycho - hopefully adding discouragement to the bad guy.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Submoa,

Wow, that's interesting about the difference in those rounds. I didn't realize .380acp was 9mm in diameter. So if I set a .380 round on a table next to a "9mm" round (for example: the round that I would use in a XD9SC) the only difference would be that the .380 is 2mm shorter? Thanks for the heads up. Now I'm thinking back hoping I haven't unwittingly showed my ignorance on the subject to the local gun guys!

Ben


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Price really should not be the big factor when you go looking for something that may have to protect you or your family. There are hand guns that will not eat as much of your wallet as much as others but you should look for something you know you can trust no matter what. It's often said in these forums that someone wants to find a good pistol but they want it cheap. In replying I can only ask how much is your life worth? That question too many times was under bud and they end up in the news. 

There's a lot of really well learned people that post these forums. I'm sure that you will get some good ideas. for me..I just love a 45 and I am a 1911 junkie...but there are some others out there that are also pretty nice.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Submoa,

HAHAHAHA I can just imagine my petite beauty screaming HAY-YAHH (or anything else) while shooting. I'm sure that will draw attention at the range. Although DA trigger pull has not been an issue for her with any gun so far, not even the PPK, just racking the slide has been a challenge on more guns than not. Your suggestion about slide racking technique is what already she does, I don't know if someone showed her that or if it came natural to her. I'm always nervous she might pinch herself. It's like watching someone stand close to the edge of a cliff, only not as bad. Come to think of it she actually did pinch her hand in a gun store pretty badly with a Beretta Cheetah (model 84, .380). She actually bled but took it like a... ahem... man.

DevilsJohnson,

I couldn't agree more. Price has always been second to quality when we have shopped for guns. At this point we have resigned ourselves to spending ATLEAST $450 up to $600 for her gun. We may do some bargain hunting in the future but for each of our first guns we are not compromising. I don't think I have said this in the last 3 hours so her I go again... I am so pleased with my first gun choice (4"XD45C!!!). Our goal is to find the gun she will feel the same way about.

Ben


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

themayer78 said:


> Your suggestion about slide racking technique is what already she does, I don't know if someone showed her that or if it came natural to her. I'm always nervous she might pinch herself. It's like watching someone stand close to the edge of a cliff, only not as bad. Come to think of it she actually did pinch her hand in a gun store pretty badly with a Beretta Cheetah (model 84, .380). She actually bled but took it like a... ahem... man.
> 
> Ben


She needs to RELEASE the slide when fully back. Let the recoil spring do all the work, otherwise the gun could jam.










If slide racking is that bad for her, perhaps you should re-consider a small caliber revolver. No slide or safety. Just squeeze trigger and repeat until bad guy is 'stopped.'










Otherwise, open your wallet for a better gun like a Springfield EMP (9mm) ~ $1,000. Single Action only and soft recoil.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

I have always thought my wife has good taste. Today was no exception. See sig for addition to the family.:mrgreen:


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

:smt023


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I saw you were snooping around the Ruger site. I have a P345 and love it. Great gun so far. It points well and isn't to big. Ruger is discontinuing a lot of their all metal autos so if you want one don't wait. They are going Poly frame with nearly everything so I've read anyway. The P345 is a poly frame also.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm glad to hear you are happy with your P345, good looking gun. No, not looking for an all metal any time soon. I am very pleased with poly right now. I am very happy with my XD and my wifes M&P seems to be a GREAT gun too. I am looking forward to seeing two guns. The Ruger LCP and the SW M&P45c (late '08?). Oh and an all black Walther P22 w/ laser sitting in my collection.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Well... here we go again. She's not happy with the M&P. Kind of disappointing but hey, WE GETS TO DO MORE GUN SHOPPING!!!

Obviously we're going to take a hit on her gun but its a lesson learned, and a very expensive gun rental. She's more upset about chosing the wrong gun than losing the value on her brand new used gun. I'm sure seeing me happy as can be with my XD doesn't help either. 
We will be looking at the XD9SC and the HK P30 tomorrow, among others.

I'll keep you guys posted so you don't get too sore sitting on the edge of your seats! 

Wish her luck!


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

That would be great if she liked the XD9SC. Does she like the feel of your XD? If so, then she'll probably like the XD9SC. I almost shoot my sub-compact better then my service. Good luck on your search, the shopping is almost as fun as the shooting 

-Jeff-


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Almost, I think one of the best parts of shooting is when the gun store guy hands you the gun you just bought. After I bought my first gun a buddy asked me, with a grin, "How did it feel buying your first gun?" and I have to say it is a uniquely wonderful and empowering feeling.

She loves the feel of my XD and actually prefers the longer mag/fullsize grip, but wants something she can fit in her purse or IWB (and no wheels, WA Wa wa). She really thinks the XD9SC is ugly but loves how they are engineered and is willing to "settle" for one with the SS slide. I don't know whats wrong with her, I think they look great and would love to get the SC. I think if she gets one she'll appreciate what a great gun it is and won't think it's so ugly after a few hundred rounds. I admit I don't know too much about the HK's but have held the P30 and would love to see her be happy with this one too!! Really I don't care WHAT she gets as long as she likes it and will be motivated to go to the range with me.

She is often quick to bust out an "I told you so" when she can (which I admit is often). I have really been biting my lip lately... She gave me a lot of $H!T about researching handguns for 6 weeks before I decided to get my 4" XD45C. She decided on the M&P after about 3 visits to local gun stores. I feel bad for her because she is so upset with herself for getting the wrong gun so I'm not going to kick her while she's down, but man I gotta get this out... HAHA I TOLD HER SO!! I told her the time I put into my decision was not a waste. OK I'm done, now back to being an adult and helping my lovely wife find a great gun she will enjoy forever and ever.

I'll post pics when the time comes.

OH YEAH! Anybody want to buy a perfectly good S&W M&P9c? I posted in the Handgun Classifieds if anyone is interested, and I am open to negotiating a mutually fair deal.

p.s. Beefy, you guys still happy with that Stoeger? I currently have a Beretta Cougar 45 on loan from my cousin, should get to shoot it Sunday. I like the design of these guns and the Stoeger prices are great. Any issues with the different finish? My cousin tells me they are painted rather than blued like the Berettas were. True? Comments?


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Well I think we found a winner. She got the P30, which was almost twice our original budget, but well worth it. I told her if she changes her mind about this one then she's on her own because I'm not letting it go anywhere, I ALMOST got this gun instead of my XD but decided I had to have the 45.

We bought it from a gun store / outdoor range so we walked right over to test it out. She fired off two rounds and turned to me smiling ear-to-ear and very calmly says "I LOVE this gun!". She shot about 150 more, I shot about 50. She really is in love with her gun now, I'm very happy for her. Today was a good day.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

It sounds like you found the right one for her. Hopefully she continues to enjoy it just as much 



themayer78 said:


> p.s. Beefy, you guys still happy with that Stoeger? I currently have a Beretta Cougar 45 on loan from my cousin, should get to shoot it Sunday. I like the design of these guns and the Stoeger prices are great. Any issues with the different finish? My cousin tells me they are painted rather than blued like the Berettas were. True? Comments?


We both love the Cougar, but she is insanely in love with it. I joked about getting right of it one time and I thought she was going to rip my eyeballs out :mrgreen: It shoots great and we haven't had a single problem. We have almost 800 rounds with it and it looks just like it did the day I bought it. But, we can't carry so there's really no reason for there to be any damage on the finish. Once we get home from the range, I clean the guns and the Cougar goes back in its case. The finish looks great and seems to be very durable, but it hasn't been tested by any means as far as carry/holster wear is concern. As far as it being painted and not blued, these Cougars are made on the EXACT same machinery as the Beretta models were. The guns are pretty much exactly the same besides the name stamped on the side. Mine even came with Beretta mags. Beretta owns Stoeger, and the guns are the same they were then, just cheaper. I got a great deal on this Stoeger. They raised the price on it $80 while mine was sitting in the back waiting for my permit to purchase to arrive. I say if you like it and you're considering buying one, then go for it. I really like the feel of it and she loves it. Hope that helps 

-Jeff-


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Glad to hear your liking the Stoeger, my cousin LOVES his. I did get to shoot it today and I have to say this is why they make different guns, I like my XD more. The Cougar is a real nice gun it just doesn't fit me as well. I now have 1200 through the XD, what a gun. Is your girl new to shooting or just new to the Cougar? My wife is new to shooting and she's loving it. It's nice to be married to such a cool girl, there is something hot about watching her shoot and seeing her get so enthusiastic about it.

I'll get some pics up next week, I'm leaving for NYC in about 3 hours.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

She is totally new to shooting and the Stoeger Cougar was the first handgun she ever shot. She's shot a couple others now but still loves the Stoeger. I'm glad she does because I just want to see her happy. It's also great because she's an all-time range partner. She's always more than willing to go and even WANTS to go almost all the time when we actually have the time (provided I buy the ammo :anim_lol. It's a lot of fun seeing her get so excited, and she's actually becoming a damn good shot.

-Jeff-


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