# Doesn't sound like a good daily routine



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

An Almost Deadly Mistake - USA Carry click link


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

"Just like every night, I take out my Glock, put in a full mag, lock and load one round, eject the mag, put in a second full mag, and place it close but in a safe location."

Why on earth did he, "put in a full mag, lock and load one round, eject the mag, put in a second full mag"? If he's already got a full magazine in the gun when he chambers a round from it, why remove it just to insert another full magazine? Now for the critique.

The less you handle a loaded gun, the better. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, but first let me address this issue. Constant and frequent handling as Roger was doing, becomes a ritual and can lend itself to complacency in good time. This can lead to casualness and a certain cavalier sort of behavior which can lead to missteps and accidents. His better move would have been this.

If he lives in a two story home, insert a loaded magazine but do not chamber a round (this assumes a few things such as an alarm system or an aware dog on the premises). Anyone breaking into his home is going to take a little time before he is a threat and that is certainly enough time to chamber a round and be ready to face an assailant.

In a single level home, keep the gun in full battery but have it handy in an open fanny pack pouch or a friction style holster. This forces you to make a deliberate move to get to your gun, but not so time wasting that you cannot get to it quickly (you don't want it loose on the nightstand and have a bad dream).

There is no need to chamber the gun and unchamber it each time you go to bed and get up in the morning if you have a secure place for once you're up and away. This is an unnecessary move and can, as Roger found out, lead to accidents. Now for the exception.

Trigger discipline. Anyone who carries or keeps a firearm for their protection (especially those who carry) should perform trigger discipline exercises on a fairly frequent basis, say once a week or more. These tasks are not the same as Roger's nightly and morning ritual since, 1) you should be fully awake and, 2) you are wise to vary the circumstances a bit.

I do this several times a week and I have a method that for me, works beautifully. Does this mean that should I do it tomorrow, there's a 100% certainty that nothing bad will happen? Of course not but it's damned close to that. I have done this for years and my method works for me. Handling a loaded gun in full battery, while not in and of itself dangerous, when you introduce distractions, assuredness, over confidence/arrogance, cavalier behavior, or any similar stimuli is a recipe for disaster. A similar behavior I hear some people doing is loading their gun before strapping it on, then when returning home, unloading it an putting it away. Why not just keep it loaded all the time and make sure you have a good way to secure it when it is not on your person?

The title of this thread was aptly chosen.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

He also states that he racks the slide multiple times just to make sure the gun is unloaded. Well ,,if you drop the magazine, rack the slide, shouldn't the chambered round be extracted? I usually extract the round into my hand. Also an important safety measure to ensure the chamber is clear, would to visually look at and sometimes actually feel the chamber.This my way,I'm sure everybody has their own technique .
But obviously SouthernBoy I agree ,why not just secure the weapon. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary moves just to remove one bullet 365 times a year.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> He also states that he racks the slide multiple times just to make sure the gun is unloaded. Well ,,if you drop the magazine, rack the slide, shouldn't the chambered round be extracted? I usually extract the round into my hand. *Also an important safety measure to ensure the chamber is clear, would to visually look at and sometimes actually feel the chamber.*This my way,I'm sure everybody has their own technique .
> But obviously SouthernBoy I agree ,why not just secure the weapon. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary moves just to remove one bullet 365 times a year.


I always make a visual and tactile inspection of the breach end of the barrel with the magazine removed. I use my little finger or sometimes a metal letter opener to verify there is nothing in the chamber.

Yes it is a lot of unnecessary moves and dangerous moves as Roger found out. The enemies of gun handling are complacency, casualness, arrogance, and a cavalier attitude. Any one of these, or a combination thereof, can lead to some bad things. While it is a natural tendency to get over confident as time wears on with one's handling of firearms, this can be disastrous and has no place in a safe program of gun use and handling.


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## blake38 (Apr 18, 2013)

Every morning he puts the gun in locked storage. Every night he takes it out so it will be close at hand. That part I understand. I don't understand the part about chambering and unchambering every day. If he is putting the gun in locked storage, it' seems safer to leave it as is rather than futz with it every morning and every evening. I agree with SouthernBoy's assessment.


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## guardrail (May 23, 2010)

When I store my carry gun in my vehicle at work, I eject the mag and rack the slide to eject the round in the chamber. I do so just in case my wife is driving the vehicle without my physical presence, she will not catch any grief for having a loaded weapon in the car.

When I rack the slide without the mag and a round falls into my hand, it is unloaded. There is no chance another round snuck in there. 

I also fail to see the need to pull the trigger. It is an unnecessary step. The gun will be just fine until I load it again for carrying.


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## XD40inAVL (Feb 1, 2013)

You don't 'rack the slide' to make sure it is unloaded, you hold (or latch) the slide back and you *LOOK!* You LOOK to see if a round is in the chamber, and you LOOK to make sure there is no magazine, or an empty mag.

I also see no reason to 'pull the trigger' to put a gun in a safe.

I have a bedside safe, and my gun is fully loaded and chambered 24/7. The safe is locked when we are not at home, or when the grandkids are here. Otherwise it is open. It has a push button lock, and when opened the door opens up and present the gun in a holster that is part of the safe. To secure, just close the door.

What is the reasoning in removing a round from the chamber, and turning right around in putting a full mag in the gun to put it in the safe?


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

did you just say fanny pack? 

i didnt know those still existed but you have some valid points my friend!


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## XD40inAVL (Feb 1, 2013)

guardrail said:


> When I store my carry gun in my vehicle at work, I eject the mag and rack the slide to eject the round in the chamber. I do so just in case my wife is driving the vehicle without my physical presence, she will not catch any grief for having a loaded weapon in the car.
> 
> When I rack the slide without the mag and a round falls into my hand, it is unloaded. There is no chance another round snuck in there.
> 
> I also fail to see the need to pull the trigger. It is an unnecessary step. The gun will be just fine until I load it again for carrying.


Some states don't differentiate between a loaded vs. unloaded gun in a vehicle. If it is within reach of the driver or passenger, and concealed from view, it is considered a concealed weapon, and you better have a permit. Without a permit it must be visible (seat or dash) or must not be accessible to driver or passenger (in trunk, or locked compartment).

Aside from that, why doesn't your wife have her concealed carry permit?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

As we all should know by know, the most dangerous part of handling a firearm, is when you load / unload it. 

Excessive handling and loading / unloading is a potential disaster just waiting to occur. 

One dept. that I worked for some years ago, required us to unload / clear our sidearm after the end of each shift. We had a clearing barrel that required you to move back and forth between it and our secured gun locker. 

I spoke to the Chief about the unnecessary handling and it just went in one ear and out the other. Oh, and BTW, he had a gun locker in his office and he never unloaded / cleared his .38 snubby. He just plopped in it and closed the door. 

He was such a frigging idiot. :smt030


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> As we all should know by know, the most dangerous part of handling a firearm, is when you load / unload it.
> 
> Excessive handling and loading / unloading is a potential disaster just waiting to occur.
> 
> ...


Where did you work bro?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> Where did you work bro?


You know the ole saying.......If I told ya, I'd have to........well, ummm, you get my drift. :numbchuck:


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## guardrail (May 23, 2010)

XD40inAVL said:


> Some states don't differentiate between a loaded vs. unloaded gun in a vehicle. If it is within reach of the driver or passenger, and concealed from view, it is considered a concealed weapon, and you better have a permit. Without a permit it must be visible (seat or dash) or must not be accessible to driver or passenger (in trunk, or locked compartment).
> 
> Aside from that, why doesn't your wife have her concealed carry permit?


Missouri and Kansas allow an unloaded gun out of reach without a permit. That's why it's unloaded and under the cargo area in the wagon when I'm not carrying.

My wife has no desire to get a permit, that's her decision.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

About that pulling-the-trigger thing...

When you unload a semi auto _which has a visible hammer_, the final thing I would suggest doing is: Point the gun in a safe direction, and pull its trigger to drop its hammer.
This presents proof that the gun is empty-no "BANG!"-and also visual proof that it cannot be fired unless something more is done to it.

Think about it: If the hammer is down, the least that has to be done to make it shoot is to cock its hammer-if there's a round in its chamber. More likely would be to rack its slide, thereby proving that either there is a loaded magazine in the gun, or there is not. Then you act accordingly.
In any case, with the hammer down, something more has to be done. This gives you a pause during which you are supposed to think about what you're doing. And if you are the sort of person who doesn't think about what he's doing... Well, why are you monkeying around with a gun anyway?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TheLAGuy said:


> did you just say fanny pack?
> 
> i didnt know those still existed but you have some valid points my friend!


Fanny pack pouch... just the pouch portion. Or you could use one of the triangular zippered handgun carriers if you prefer. The point is to make it a more deliberate move to get to your gun so that if you have a nightmare, you diminish the chance of putting a round through your ceiling... or something else.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

XD40inAVL said:


> Some states don't differentiate between a loaded vs. unloaded gun in a vehicle. If it is within reach of the driver or passenger, and concealed from view, it is considered a concealed weapon, and you better have a permit. Without a permit it must be visible (seat or dash) or must not be accessible to driver or passenger (in trunk, or locked compartment).
> 
> Aside from that, why doesn't your wife have her concealed carry permit?


We don't have to worry about this in Virginia. You can carry a gun, loaded or unloaded, in your glove box or center console without a CHP and it is perfectly legal. Of course, you could also carry one on your person in a holster and it would also be legal as that would be open carry which for us is our normal mode of carry here.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> About that pulling-the-trigger thing...
> 
> When you unload a semi auto _which has a visible hammer_, the final thing I would suggest doing is: Point the gun in a safe direction, and pull its trigger to drop its hammer.
> This presents proof that the gun is empty-no "BANG!"-and also visual proof that it cannot be fired unless something more is done to it.
> ...


True.

My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 Glock 23's and those times when I unload it, I always pull the trigger, same as for the ones that are in my safe. This relieves unnecessary tension on the striker spring and offers a sure indication that the gun is not chambered. The Glock has two loaded chamber indicators which are both visible and tactile. They only advertise one, the extractor, but the fact is if the trigger is in its fully rearward position, there can't be a round in the chamber and even if there was, the gun would not be able to discharge that round. Yes you can feel the trigger in that position and there is a way to do it safely, but I prefer to use the visible check when dealing with triggers.


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## guardrail (May 23, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> About that pulling-the-trigger thing...
> 
> When you unload a semi auto _which has a visible hammer_, the final thing I would suggest doing is: Point the gun in a safe direction, and pull its trigger to drop its hammer.
> This presents proof that the gun is empty-no "BANG!"-and also visual proof that it cannot be fired unless something more is done to it.


If you pull the trigger to verify or assure there isn't one in the chamber, you are foolish and reckless. I doubt that's what you meant (hope not, anyway), but that's how it sounds.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

guardrail said:


> If you pull the trigger to verify or assure there isn't one in the chamber, you are foolish and reckless. I doubt that's what you meant (hope not, anyway), but that's how it sounds.


Well, if you're stupid enough to drop the hammer on a chambered, loaded cartridge, as long as the pistol is pointed in a safe direction, at least you won't destroy something that you didn't mean to break.
And certainly, the event will be a learning experience that probably won't be repeated.

If you read what I wrote just a little more carefully, you may note that what I wrote was that dropping the hammer _proves_ that there's no loaded round in the chamber.
You don't do it as some sort of test. You do it to reassure yourself and the people around you.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I just drop the mag, rack the slide and lock it to the rear, and do a visual inspection. 

Hasn't let me down yet. :smt047


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

If I do unload ,to add a little oil or whatever. I always find it a good opportunity to practice a little dry fire.
Especially with that sig 1911 trigger that keeps getting better with age.
Ok , I bet a few horses in the Kentucky derby, wheeled the 14,16 horse in the trifecta, giddy-up !!!

Had the winner , but didn't have the second place horse. Trifecta is 1st,2nd,3rd place horse .


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## guardrail (May 23, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, if you're stupid enough to drop the hammer on a chambered, loaded cartridge, as long as the pistol is pointed in a safe direction, at least you won't destroy something that you didn't mean to break.
> And certainly, the event will be a learning experience that probably won't be repeated.
> 
> If you read what I wrote just a little more carefully, you may note that what I wrote was that dropping the hammer _proves_ that there's no loaded round in the chamber.
> You don't do it as some sort of test. You do it to reassure yourself and the people around you.


When I eject the mag and see the round ejected, I know it is unloaded. No need to "drop the hammer". But to each his own.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

guardrail said:


> When I eject the mag and see the round ejected, I know it is unloaded. No need to "drop the hammer". But to each his own.[/
> No need to drop the hammer if you keep the slide locked open, because obviously you can't drop the hammer. But when you retrieve that loaded gun from its locked storage ,or unlocked storage you should be handling the gun once more as a loaded handgun until you have properly checked it's condition. The gun has been out if your possession and that justifies it as a loaded handgun ,until you verify it's condition..
> When at your local gun shop to view guns, the salesmen never hands you a gun with the hammer cocked.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

guardrail said:


> When I eject the mag and see the round ejected, I know it is unloaded. No need to "drop the hammer". But to each his own.


...And try telling that to the Rangemaster.


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## guardrail (May 23, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And try telling that to the Rangemaster.


I am the range master where I shoot. I will decock a weapon with a hammer, but I see no need to dry fire it. A visual inspection is all that is required. Locking the slide back is a much better way to assure everyone the weapon is unloaded.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

guardrail said:


> ...Locking the slide back is a much better way to assure everyone the weapon is unloaded.


Agreed!
Except if it has been holstered.
But then, most formal ranges no longer permit a holstered pistol anyway.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

The trigger pull is the last step in a procedure that is designed to be fail safe. When we unload and clear a gun, we first do a visual and physical check of the chamber. For the most part, we will do this correctly and the chamber will be empty. However, there is still a very small chance that we screwed up and the is still a round in the chamber. We can all say that such an error will never happen with us and hopefully, we will be proved correct. But that is something that we cannot say with absolute certainty. That last trigger pull with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction is a check to ensure the chamber is empty. You may want to consider it a secondary check but it is still a check. So if we failed to properly check the chamber visually and physically, the procedure to pull the trigger with the muzzle in a safe direction is a final safety check. If there is a round in the chamber, the procedure just cause you to AD into a safe direction. Nothing injured but your ego. 

Just to be sure, we are not decocking the hammer. We are actually dropping the hammer down on what hopefully is an empty chamber. And if it not empty, you just AD'ed into a pile of dirt. You'll be red faced but no blood.

Standard practice at any IDPA match. When you are being unloaded under the directions of the Safety Officer (SO), you are commanded to first "unload and show clear". That is when you remove the magazine and pull the slide back to show the SO you have an empty chamber. The next command is "slide forward". Once the slide is forward, the next command is "hammer down". This is when you pull the trigger and let the hammer fall and strike the firing pin. You are not permitted to use the decocking lever. This is the last and final act that will ensure the chamber is empty. All this is done while the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction down range and no one is allowed to ahead of the muzzle. 

This may seem unsafe but if enough mistakes are made and a round is still left in the chamber, at least the AD will be controlled and will occur in a safe direction. I have witnessed on AD as a result of the shooter not properly emptying the chamber the got ahead of the SO so the SO could not verify an empty chamber before the round was discharged. But the AD was in a safe direction so the only injury was to his ego.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Long guns are not an exception. I witnessed a negligent discharge with a 12 gauge shotgun slug.
We were emptying our shot guns at the end of the day.
He did not have the gun pointed in a safe direction . Well he pressed the trigger thinking the gun was empty. Instead of going click , it went bang. 
The slug flew about six inches away from my friends head, his face was splattered with powder, or whatever other forceful byproduct that occurs when a slug passes your head from such a close distance.
This happened 38 years ago. Trust me ,this is so vividly detailed in my mind,it's like it happened yesterday. I watched him unload his shotgun. He stated that the gun was empty.. The boogeyman or devil will sometimes put a round in your 
gun without notifying you.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

guardrail said:


> I am the range master where I shoot. I will decock a weapon with a hammer, but I see no need to dry fire it. A visual inspection is all that is required. Locking the slide back is a much better way to assure everyone the weapon is unloaded.


Different ranges have different rules, mostly subtle but still different. I am a member of two ranges; one outdoor and one indoor. At the outdoor range when it's hot you can lay your gun down, muzzle forward, while maybe adjusting your spotting scope or getting another box of ammo. At the indoor range if you lay your gun down, it must be unloaded with the action open. I can practice draw and fire drills at the indoor range but cannot do this at the outdoor range.

I've seen all sorts of mishaps and rules broken at ranges over the years, fortunately with no one getting injured, and I've even seen a range master do something really dumb and really bad where I was the potential victim of his error. Murphy's Law is alive and well at shooting ranges.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks, *pic*.
I learned the same procedure at the IPSC matches in which I used to compete.
I have always felt that it was the most rational way of "showing clear," but I also know that many ranges do not permit holstered guns, while IPSC and IDPA do.

Some people get stuck in their own grooves so solidly that it might as well be a trench. Different ways of accomplishing the same objective with equal effectiveness just don't seem to register.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Agreed!
> Except if it has been holstered.
> But then, most formal ranges no longer permit a holstered pistol anyway.


One of the two ranges where I am a member do allow holstered handguns. In fact, if your gun is still loaded, you cannot just lay it on your lane's table. You have to either unload it and open the action or holster it. This is the NRA national headquarters range.


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