# Off topic question from new member



## JohnCiccarelli (Sep 15, 2011)

I am a new member and I am looking for the best option for Black Bear Protection in North Carolina. I am thinking that I am going to buy a 44Mag Handgun. My question is about my 16 gauge shotgun. How effective would it be compared to the 44Mag. I have read quite a lot and have not seen any discussions on 16 Gauge Shotguns. My other option would be to buy a 12 gauge.

Any Thoughts? John


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

Handguns are for when long guns aren't an option. Since you're considering both, I would definately go with a rifle or shotgun. As far as which long gun and which chambering, I'll have to leave that to someone else with more first hand knowledge regarding what is effective on a black bear.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

JohnCiccarelli said:


> I am a new member and I am looking for the best option for Black Bear Protection in North Carolina. I am thinking that I am going to buy a 44Mag Handgun. My question is about my 16 gauge shotgun. How effective would it be compared to the 44Mag. I have read quite a lot and have not seen any discussions on 16 Gauge Shotguns. My other option would be to buy a 12 gauge.
> 
> Any Thoughts? John


I have a 16 gauge shotgun. A Remington Model 31 pre WWII pump. Well used, but very good condition. My Father got it when his Uncle died while hunting pheasants. A good way to go.
I got it after my Father died. Slowly of increasing kidney failure. Not a good way to go. The gun came with four boxes of never used "Western Super-X". One is # 1 buckshot.

You don't say if your "Black bear protection" shotgun would be carried on "hikes or whatever", or stored at home or in a vehicle "ready for use".
I would recommend "hunting slugs" if you are going to use a shotgun for bears. Whatever gauge. You don't describe your 16 gauge. It may be "sorta valuable". But probably not.
I checked, and Midway USA's ammo section has several brands of 16 gauge slugs for a bit less than a buck a shell.
Ammunition - Shop Premium & Discount Ammunition at MidwayUSA

I have a Mossberg 500 "home defense 12 gauge". 20 inch barrel, eight shot, black finish, black plastic stocks. Cheap ($280 ? ? ?) quality gun. Hard to beat.
It's loaded with "people 00 buckshot". I don't expect any of our Black bears to break into my bedroom at night.

If you want a handy handgun for Black bear protection, a .44 Magnum pistol is hard to beat. I'd recommend a double-action revolver for "defense". Single-action's are for hunting.
Ruger and Smith & Wesson have a number of double-action revolvers. Lots of quality choices here. There are other brands. But . . .

My mountain/wilderness hiking gun is a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454 Casull. Twice the energy of the .44 Mag. Overkill for Black bear or lion. You do have to hit 'em if needed.
But I've always been a bit weird.

Good luck, and let us know what you choose and where you'll store or carry it. :smt1099


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## JohnCiccarelli (Sep 15, 2011)

My 16 gauge is a 1950s Remington Wingmaster Pump that my Dad used to hunt with. I used it for a few years back in the early 90s. It is very good condition and has never been abused. I guess what I am asking is if the 16 has enough stopping power with a slug. I am guessing that it is more powerful then a 44mag. I guess that I could buy a 12 gauge or other rifle if the 16 gauge would not have enough stopping power. 

I will be in the woods with my UTV. So it will be with me and not carried. I will be riding some and picnicing with my wife some. The shotgun will be in an overhead gun rack.

I actually have a bunch of 16 gauge slugs.

I am hoping to find a good used 44Mag.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

I would keep the 16 and invest in a nice 12 for bear medicine. At least they are Black Bears and not Brown Bears - a little tougher to bring them down. Your 44 Mag will also do the trick for your bear defense needs. What is the barrel length on the 44? Either way, 16 Ga. shotguns have a cool factor to them for me, but I feel as though I would be better suited with the 12 Ga., plus there are more ammo selections with a 12 Ga. than a 16 Ga. JMHO.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Brenneke 3inch or 3 1/2 inch 12 Ga. slugs will work on all bear, even grizz and brown. Just hold on tight when you shoot em. A 44 mag with cast bullets would be good medicine as well. A 30-06 with 180 to 200 grain bonded bullets is very good as well.


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## JohnCiccarelli (Sep 15, 2011)

berettatoter said:


> I would keep the 16 and invest in a nice 12 for bear medicine. At least they are Black Bears and not Brown Bears - a little tougher to bring them down. Your 44 Mag will also do the trick for your bear defense needs. What is the barrel length on the 44? Either way, 16 Ga. shotguns have a cool factor to them for me, but I feel as though I would be better suited with the 12 Ga., plus there are more ammo selections with a 12 Ga. than a 16 Ga. JMHO.


That was my thought also about the 16 gauge. I guess I will look for a decent used 12 gauge. I do not have a 44 yet, but I am thinking 4 - 5 inch barrel. I think that longer would tougher to carry.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Pepper spray. (First choice).

HowStuffWorks "Bear Spray Effectiveness"

or a 10mm Glock.


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## JohnCiccarelli (Sep 15, 2011)

Packard said:


> Pepper spray. (First choice).
> 
> HowStuffWorks "Bear Spray Effectiveness"
> 
> or a 10mm Glock.


I do also plan to have bear pepper spray. I really do not want to get that close if there is an option.

I am also considering a Glock 20. The Semi Auto with more shots does seem to have some advantages over just power.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

JohnCiccarelli said:


> I do also plan to have bear pepper spray. I really do not want to get that close if there is an option.
> 
> I am also considering a Glock 20. The Semi Auto with more shots does seem to have some advantages over just power.


Most of the sprays seem to have a range of about 30 feet. And since it is a continous stream you can adjust your aim as you shoot. Bears (dogs too) have much more sensitive membranes and I don't think the concentration in bear spray is as much as in human spray. They come in larger cylinders with a larger capacity and a greater range. No recoil, so any member of the family can use it.

The Glock is by far the lightest of the 10 mm autos out there. You can use either the 20 or the 29. The Model 29 is not as small as the other baby Glocks--nearer in size to the mid-range model 23.

Loaded with high pressure loads it will generate close to 700 foot pounds of energy. An awful lot of them are lower pressure and not much more than a hot .40. So you need to check the ammo.  Double Tap makes some hot loads in 10mm.


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## johna91374 (Aug 16, 2011)

I will agree that a shotgun would be a better choice but I personally have never been a long gun fan. Owned and shot several rifles and shot guns but never really cared for them. They always seemed to awkward for me and I've grown up with hand guns so that's what I'm familiar and comfortable with. For stopping a Black Bear I would think that something in the .44, .45, 454 would work well. I have a friend in Tenn. that swears up and down that his .40 would be more than enough but I'm not sure I would want to run that risk. From what I understand you want the heaviest bullet you can find for your caliber. You also want a hard case to help penetration. I myself would not feel like I had enough gun unless I was packing .44 or something equivalent. That being aid I have gone hiking with nothing more than my old Glock 27 .40 and my Sig 226 in 9mm. I was more afraid of 2 legged threats than 4.


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## postmaster (Aug 16, 2011)

*Black bears*

A black bear in NC that would attack is very rare. I have encountered many black bears in the smokies while hiking long distances.

They may woof at you and stand up against a tree,but usually any noise will keep them away.

A small can of pepper for the bears, and a CCW for hostile people.

I have camped remotely and had as many as 6 or 7 wander around the camp at night looking for food, because some idiot fed them at some time. They can smell food a mile away, so keep food sealed, and when walking make a little noise, and you won't even see one.

(probably)


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

MONTANA GRIZZLY BEAR ALERT

In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Montana Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

"We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear."

It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear excrement:

Black bear excrement is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.

Grizzly bear excrement has little bells in it and smells like pepper.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

JohnCiccarelli said:


> . . . I am thinking that I am going to buy a 44Mag Handgun. My question is about my 16 gauge shotgun. How effective would it be compared to the 44Mag. . . My other option would be to buy a 12 gauge.


Back to your original question. We will assume "muzzle energy" somewhat equates to "effectiveness".
Some folks subscribe to the "more bullet weight with less speed" is more effective than lighter/faster loads. Even though the "heavier" load has less energy. 
It does have some merit, but I'll leave that discussion for another time and place. I think it applies more to "big brown (or white)" bears than Blacks.

For both 16 gauge and 12 gauge shotguns, below I use Federal Powershot Hollowpoint Rifled Slug data,
For both .44 Mag and .454 Casull, below I use Winchester Super Elite Dual Bond Jacketed Hollow Point data. Which I use in my .454 hiking carry gun.
Both of the shotgun and handgun loads would be considered full-power "Big". No wimps with either.

16 gauge: 1989 ft. lbs., 1600 fps, 4/5 oz. slug. Which is 350 grains. You can find .44 Mag/.454 Casull lead bullets "up" in this weight range. They will be "slow" in muzzle velocity.
12 gauge: 2518 ft-lbs., 1610 fps, 1 oz. slug. Which is 437.5 grains.

.44 Mag: 900 ft-lbs., 1300 fps, 240 grain bullet.
.454 Casull: 1870 ft-lbs., 1800 fps, 260 grain bullet.

Obvious conclusions if maximizing "effectiveness" is important and energy translates to "Black bear stopping power". I think it correlates pretty well.
1. The 12 gauge sends MORE energy down-range. All due to the heavier slug. As always, Energy = 1/2 Mass x (Velocity Squared). Here, velocity is "equal", mass is not.
2. The 16 gauge gets you a bit more than twice the energy of a .44 Mag. It "wins" in both weight and speed. (remember the Velocity Squared above).
3. The popularity of the .454 Casull over the .44 Mag is obvious for folks in "real Grizzlie/Kodiak bear" country. Twice the .44 Mag energy in the same size/weight gun. 
Due to velocity for this particular ammo. There is quite a range of "weights" for both .44 Mag and .454. 
There is plenty of "discussion" about "more weight/less velocity" or the opposite "less weight/more velocity" in handgun ammo for bears. 
Some reputable people REALLY BELIEVE in more bullet weight. And they actually shoot bears with handguns. The big nasty ones.

As for "your" shotgun, I still like the idea of a "home-defense" low-cost ($270) 12 gauge on your ATV. Shorter, tougher, and easier to handle than your 16. Keep the 16 "nice".
I think I said before I favor the Mossberg 500. The tang-mounted (at the back/top of receiver) is a much better "SHTF" deal than a trigger-guard mounted "cross-bolt".
I think the importance of the Mossberg safety "just push forward" with your strong-hand thumb (left OR right-handed) to fire cannot be underestimated when the "SHTF".

As always, you get a long-winded "discussion" from me, and YMMV. :mrgreen:


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

postmaster said:


> A black bear in NC that would attack is very rare. I have encountered many black bears in the smokies while hiking long distances.
> 
> They may woof at you and stand up against a tree,but usually any noise will keep them away. . . (probably)


Really, your "very rare" is correct. Lion attacks around here are much more likely. But even those are very rare. One/two a year at the most.
But, I have seen two videos done by unarmed guys who spotted a Black bear, and found it was stalking them.
No harm done, but there was some real "spiking" of blood pressure, pulse rate, and adrenalin. And talking in squeaky voices to the bear.

Last year we had a Black who was "removed to wilderness" twice. Tranquilized first time. Second time chased the Nat'l Forest twosome trying to tranquilize it back to their truck. Now THAT was funny.
But they got it, and set it free 50 miles away. Third time, it was observed watching kids at a bus stop. That is violation of our "Game & Fish rules". Penalty is death. So it is ordered, so it is done.

This year a Black was tracked and destroyed. For the crime of killing and eating people. Apparently, they had just finished breakfast, and "smelled like bacon".
OK, only the dead people part is true. I subscribe to the "Be Prepared" school of thought. My Boy Scout "stuff" still hangs around after 55 years.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

I carry a 45 acp or a 44 spl when I am out trail riding, hiking, rafting or camping and I am living in the mountian of Western NC year round. Use of common sense and you mostly just have a little extra wieght to carry. This time of year you have more to worry about from cash croppers, bow hunters, and two legged varmits.


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## JohnCiccarelli (Sep 15, 2011)

DanP_from_AZ said:


> Back to your original question. We will assume "muzzle energy" somewhat equates to "effectiveness".
> Some folks subscribe to the "more bullet weight with less speed" is more effective than lighter/faster loads. Even though the "heavier" load has less energy.
> It does have some merit, but I'll leave that discussion for another time and place. I think it applies more to "big brown (or white)" bears than Blacks.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the very detailed response. I guess I am going to find a Mossberg 500. Wouldn't a Semi-Auto Shotgun be a better choice or is this a bad idea due to jams or excessive cost?

I am still on the fence about what handgun. I think that I would rather have a Glock 20 then a 44Mag, but I do not want to sacrifice safety. I think the 10mm would be more versatile.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

I don't feel the least bit under gunned for Black Bear and or Mountain Lion when carrying my 4".357Mag or .45 ACP. I live among them and have had several in my yard and have encountered as many as 3 a day in the boonies of Northern Arizona.

44 Mag's and 454 Casull's are great if you are acustomed to shooting them. Your basic question and comments lead me to believe you are not. I believe you will be best served for the stated use by a weapon you can handle well and get off multiple quick accurate shots with under stress. I suggest you obtain a .357M revolver, 20 or 12 Gauge reasonably short barrel shotgun using slugs or .45 Auto. As you gain experience you can always move up to the big boomers but don't start there. Black Bear are simply not that hard to kill. A .45 would make a good bedside HD gun also.


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## JohnCiccarelli (Sep 15, 2011)

TOF said:


> I don't feel the least bit under gunned for Black Bear and or Mountain Lion when carrying my 4".357Mag or .45 ACP. I live among them and have had several in my yard and have encountered as many as 3 a day in the boonies of Northern Arizona.
> 
> 44 Mag's and 454 Casull's are great if you are acustomed to shooting them. Your basic question and comments lead me to believe you are not. I believe you will be best served for the stated use by a weapon you can handle well and get off multiple quick accurate shots with under stress. I suggest you obtain a .357M revolver, 20 or 12 Gauge reasonably short barrel shotgun using slugs or .45 Auto. As you gain experience you can always move up to the big boomers but don't start there. Black Bear are simply not that hard to kill. A .45 would make a good bedside HD gun also.


I agree with this. Wouldn't a Glock 20 be a good choice with heavy loads. It has more power then both the 357 and 45.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

packard said:


> montana grizzly bear alert
> 
> in light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the montana department of fish and game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.
> 
> ...


lol!


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

TOF said:


> I don't feel the least bit under gunned for Black Bear and or Mountain Lion when carrying my 4".357Mag or .45 ACP. I live among them and have had several in my yard and have encountered as many as 3 a day in the boonies of Northern Arizona.
> 
> 44 Mag's and 454 Casull's are great if you are acustomed to shooting them. Your basic question and comments lead me to believe you are not. I believe you will be best served for the stated use by a weapon you can handle well and get off multiple quick accurate shots with under stress. I suggest you obtain a .357M revolver, 20 or 12 Gauge reasonably short barrel shotgun using slugs or .45 Auto. As you gain experience you can always move up to the big boomers but don't start there. Black Bear are simply not that hard to kill. A .45 would make a good bedside HD gun also.


Sure can't disagree with your rationale and logic. :smt1099


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