# Negligent discharge



## Budd (Dec 17, 2016)

A member on another forum just posted that while lowering the hammer on a live round, his pistol discharged. He called it an accidental discharge.

This was not an accidental discharge. It was a negligent discharge. His negligent action could have cost some one their life. Thankfully no one was hurt.

Please be aware that the hammer should never be "thumbed" down on a live round.  Never. Not ever.

Edit to add: After being schooled by CW I have to add "*if you have another option*", don't ever lower the hammer........


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

There are no "accidental discharges."
All unintended discharges are the results of negligence.
Sometimes, stupidity is also a factor.


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## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> There are no "accidental discharges."
> All unintended discharges are the results of negligence.
> Sometimes, stupidity is also a factor.


True indeed, the only exception is a mechanical failure of the firearm. If a mechanical component fails the unintentional discharge can rightly be called "accidental".

A good example is the Remington Model 700 trigger.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Agree on the Remmy. 

One day my Rem 788 went click when I moved the safety off on an empty chamber. I was able to repeat the failure.

My Timney Trigger replacement works beautifully.


Not knowing it would fail would be accidental.

But once I knew of the failure, I suppose it would then be negligent.



Budd... Never?

I guess once you cock a single action Ruger.......


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

I ALWAYS leave my Colt SAA on a spent round in safety notch. My 1892 Winchester the same way. When going out for the first time my 1892 just has the magazine tube loaded, No round in the chamber. I had a hunting outfitter that drilled into all his hunters to just load your rifle when you see the game. Ther is plenty of time. I carried my 4 270 rounds in my pocket! Fun was had by All!


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

CW said:


> Agree on the Remmy.
> 
> One day my Rem 788 went click when I moved the safety off on an empty chamber. I was able to repeat the failure.
> 
> ...


Great point! There could be many instances where one would have to safely lower the hammer on a live round. Not only on an SA revolver but on a DA/SA revolver. For example: You've cocked the hammer, get ready to fire and the target suddenly runs away. Or any other circumstance where you've decided to cease fire after first cocking the hammer. It's impossible to remove the remaining rounds in a revolver anyway with the hammer already cocked. You're certainly not going to want to walk around with the hammer cocked? Or holster a cocked gun. The objective is to not point the gun at anything that you do not wish to destroy while safely lowering the hammer. Obviously one should practice this with an empty gun.


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## Budd (Dec 17, 2016)

CW said:


> Budd... Never?
> 
> I guess once you cock a single action Ruger.......


Good point. You know what they say.... Never say never.

Can't remove the cylinder on a cocked SA Ruger (at least not on my blackhawk) so if you decide not to take the shot you have little for options.

But I still think my point is valid, even if I did get a little over excited. 

Now I guess I gotta edit the OP.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

That's another reason to love my PCR - Decocking lever .... YES! [Beretta 84 and 96a1 are similar... G conversion may yet happen on the 96]

I do really appreciate the transfer bar in Ruger singles. [even the old Nagant has a similar safety now]

Even if the thumb slips, the hazard can be minimalized.... provided the THE MUZZEL is POINTED in a SAFE direction. [Your point is very valid as any device can fail]
-All gun safety rules work together.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Thats why the hammer has the hole in it . 
You tie a string through the hole and hold the string very carefully as you lower the hammer.







R


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pic said:


> Thats why the hammer has the hole in it .
> You tie a string through the hole and hold the string very carefully as you lower the hammer.
> 
> View attachment 5681
> ...


Dang!
I wish I'd'a thought'a that! :smt115

rayer: I bow to your superior wisdom!


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

pic said:


> Thats why the hammer has the hole in it .
> You tie a string through the hole and hold the string very carefully as you lower the hammer.
> 
> View attachment 5681
> ...


You can also tie a loop at the end of the string so you can hang your firearm on a coat rack.......


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

ac·ci·dent
ˈaksədənt/
noun
noun: accident; plural noun: accidents

1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

neg·li·gent
ˈneɡləjənt/
adjective
adjective: negligent

Failing to take proper care in doing something.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Accident: euphemism for the inability of a child to "hold their water"; also the approaching hazard of such an event: as in _I'm going to have an accident._

And here I thought that hammer hole + loop was for drop cocking. (see _drop starting a chainsaw _for reference)


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Dang!
> I wish I'd'a thought'a that! :smt115
> 
> rayer: I bow to your superior wisdom!


Lol, maybe we can patent a little rod of some sort that could actually benefit the lowering of the hammer. Don't anybody go running to the patent place , Peyton place . I know there's a place for theses ideas. I heard THAT , who said GARBAGE CAN? Lol


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

There have been many model 1911 shooters who have thumbed down cocked hammers on a loaded chamber. I'm sure this has been true for other single action only pistols and DA/SA pistols that lack a decocker, such as some CZ75s.

Nowadays the great majority of those who carry a loaded 1911 do so in condition 1: cocked and locked. However, some holsters such as full flap and some thumb break holsters due not accommodate a 1911 with a cocked hammer. If the protection of a flap holster is required, the majority of 1911 shooters would probably recommend condition 3: loaded magazine, hammer down on an empty chamber. But condition 3 does pretty much require the use of both hands to bring the gun into action since the slide must be racked to chamber a round. Condition 2: hammer down on a loaded chamber, allows the pistol to be brought into action with one hand by thumb cocking the hammer.

I am not really recommending thumbing down a hammer on a loaded chamber, but for those who do so, remember that there is not only the danger of an unintentional discharge if the hammer gets away from you, with your thumb and hand right behind the slide you are quite likely to sustain significant hand injury when the slide cycles. Some of those I know who do thumb down hammers on loaded chambers recommend putting the thumb of the support hand between the gun and the hammer as the hammer is initially released.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

pblanc said:


> There have been many model 1911 shooters who have thumbed down cocked hammers on a loaded chamber. I'm sure this has been true for other single action only pistols and DA/SA pistols that lack a decocker, such as some CZ75s.
> 
> Nowadays the great majority of those who carry a loaded 1911 do so in condition 1: cocked and locked. However, some holsters such as full flap and some thumb break holsters due not accommodate a 1911 with a cocked hammer. If the protection of a flap holster is required, the majority of 1911 shooters would probably recommend condition 3: loaded magazine, hammer down on an empty chamber. But condition 3 does pretty much require the use of both hands to bring the gun into action since the slide must be racked to chamber a round. Condition 2: hammer down on a loaded chamber, allows the pistol to be brought into action with one hand by thumb cocking the hammer.
> 
> I am not really recommending thumbing down a hammer on a loaded chamber, but for those who do so, remember that there is not only the danger of an unintentional discharge if the hammer gets away from you, with your thumb and hand right behind the slide you are quite likely to sustain significant hand injury when the slide cycles. Some of those I know who do thumb down hammers on loaded chambers recommend putting the thumb of the support hand between the gun and the hammer as the hammer is initially released.


The 1911 is very safe cocked n locked without the thumbbreak holster. You have the grip safety, manual safety and some series models have a trigger safety system


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Generally, the M1912 and M1915, G.I. leather holsters for the M1911 are roomy enough for Condition One carry.
And if one isn't, a slight modification to the hole in the flap fixes the problem.

The M3 and M7 shoulder holsters also permit Condition One carry.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

I lower the hammer on a chambered round everyday on a CZ75b or P-09. Place the non-shooting thumb between the hammer and the back of the slide when lowering the hammer. The hammer is not going to go through your thumb. Muzzle pointed in a safe direction of course.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Tangof said:


> I lower the hammer on a chambered round everyday on a CZ75b or P-09. Place the non-shooting thumb between the hammer and the back of the slide when lowering the hammer. The hammer is not going to go through your thumb. Muzzle pointed in a safe direction of course.


m

There must not be a half or quarter cock position on those models.. Every time I use my finger the hammer doesn't lower all the way, lol.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Maybe I wasn't clear....I'm lowering to the half cock notch for carry in the DA mode.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Tangof said:


> View attachment 5730
> Maybe I wasn't clear....I'm lowering to the half cock notch for carry in the DA mode.


Got it, I guess the safest measure is to always have the gun pointed in a safe direction.
Also I do consider the collateral damage if the hammer slipped and your gun wasn't equipped to catch the hammer, and it goes bang. 
Collateral damage meaning, a hole in the floor, bullet through the tv, etc ,lol.

Very good topic to discuss from time to time. It became more necessary since they started chopping off the Hammer Spurs or tang? Whatever , but I used to one handed cock n decock all the time including my 70 series colt govt.. the hammers nowadays have became bobbed or modified. 
Your confidence level should , in this maneuver should be very strong, confidence doesn't omit the cardinal rule of *maintaining that safe muzzle direction in what ever pertains to gun handling*. 
Merry Christmas and a better New Year . Pic


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## DLYskes1976 (Sep 15, 2015)

so when i bought my 1911, i ended up with this dilemma... how do you drop the hammer? well, after trying it several time unloaded... i found my thumb would slip off the hammer more often than not... so, what i started doing is, releasing the mag, and then racking the slide to eject the live round... and then dropping the hammer on a unloaded gun....


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

DLYskes1976 said:


> so when i bought my 1911, i ended up with this dilemma... how do you drop the hammer? well, after trying it several time unloaded... i found my thumb would slip off the hammer more often than not... so, what i started doing is, releasing the mag, and then racking the slide to eject the live round... and then dropping the hammer on a unloaded gun....


Don't just _release_ the magazine.
_Remove_ it.

Then eject the chambered round.
And finally, press the trigger and drop the hammer on an empty gun.

Unless instructed otherwise by a Rangemaster, if the hammer is down, it indicates that the gun can't be fired.


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## therewolf (Jan 10, 2017)

You can parse the terms, but the gun went off when you didn't want it to.

Now, if what you claim is true, why don't they call all car accidents 

"auto negligents"?

Rather than worry about correct terminology, maybe our time would be better 

spent, if we all considered ways to avoid AD/NDs for ourselves, in the future.

Because this is starting to sound like the clip/mag argument-yanno, really,

who cares ?


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## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

I agree that the topic has been discussed a lot. But the point is that "accidental" makes it sound like the shooter had almost nothing to do with it, when actually it's his/her fault for not using proper care and he/she should accept responsibility rather than dismissing it as an accident. 

How many times have you heard stories where after the fact someone says, "I was just pointing it and it suddenly went off!. Really? Or, "I was just cleaning my Glock and it went off!" That's no accident - that's negligence.

That's why "accidental" should be reserved for mechanical failures - because the person in control of the firearm was not at fault. IMHO.

It goes back to that old saw, "words mean things".


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I learned a long, long time ago that there is no such thing as an automobile _accident_.
Mishaps are caused by inattentive drivers, or those in too much of a hurry. They aren't "accidents."

By extension, there is no such thing as an _accidental discharge_.
(See "automobile accident," above.)


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I've been around and shooting firearms since about age 8 or so. Learned all about firearms handling & safety from my father and some safety courses as a youngster.

I couldn't begin to estimate how many rounds I've fired over the course of my life up to now. Not once, have I had any kind of unintentional firearms discharge that I hadn't planned for and/or executed. Nothing even close to resembling an issue of that type or kind.

I'll be the first to say that there are a lot of people in possession of firearms, that shouldn't be. I've witnessed that fact time and time again over the years, in different places and various situations.

For me, it was about education, training, and experience. I've been very fortunate to have received some of the very best, both while in the military and LE. I also sought out specialized training on my own quite often back when.

As others have implied in previous posts, I don't believe in AD's or ND's. I've yet to see or hear of a firearm simply going off by it's own that wasn't in the custody of a human being.

Another thing rarely discussed at times, is the subject of intimately knowing the firearm you are handling. Knowing *EXACTLY* how it functions and performs. Many people buy a firearm and really don't take the time and make the effort to know it like the back of their own hand. They assume that it functions just like all the other firearms they have owned or shot at some time. How many literally sit down and read the owner's manual front to back.....and maybe read it all over a second time? Few I'm sure!

It really is all about education and knowledge. Both are empowerment. The more you know, the better off you are.


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## therewolf (Jan 10, 2017)

Let's re-look at the auto "accidents" analogy again. Ever notice how some people have 

a lot of "accidents"? Of course, they want to call them "accidents", it is convenient wording,

in order to avoid answerability and responsibility. Somebody with an AD is trying to salve their

own conscience, in order to gloss over the fact they were careless with a gun. As such, they will 

also continue to do so.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> I've been around and shooting firearms since about age 8 or so. Learned all about firearms handling & safety from my father and some safety courses as a youngster.
> 
> I couldn't begin to estimate how many rounds I've fired over the course of my life up to now. Not once, have I had any kind of unintentional firearms discharge that I hadn't planned for and/or executed. Nothing even close to resembling an issue of that type or kind.
> 
> ...


Very good, well explained. 
I too, have been around guns all my life.
Today we have two separate groups of Gun owners, maybe a third.

The first group many here on this forum belong to. We've grown up with guns in our hands.

The second group are the people who are buying guns for the first time, mainly out of fear, changing times.

When I was born the doctor told my mother it's a boy, it's a snub nose 38 revolver. The sad part is , it's still a snub nose , lol


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## specgrade (Jan 17, 2017)

I guess I'll have to start using the de-cocker on my S&W 686plus....oh wait...:mrgreen:

Sounds like something to practice at the range.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Perhaps there may be some consideration that accidents really do happen...

But it's the causal factor that is most important.

Was it a catastrophic failure like a master cylinder or brake lines blowing? Or how about the old Isuzu Troopers which had the front wheels separate from the axel [bad welding at manufacturer]? .... automotive failures seem to have many more incidents to best illustrate the point...

Someday I have to get the picture up of an old Melior .25 with the bullet sticking out of the muzzle.

My friend had this pistol - a war curio, and decided to load it for home protection. He let go of the slide and Bang! Fortunately it shot only the door jamb.
The call was frantic....I did what you showed me!!!!!...What went wrong?????? .....I calmed him and he was able to unload the pistol safely.

Out to the farm it went and with a single cartridge in the magazine I reproduced the discharge. (safely down range)
Trigger was not touched, grip safety was not squeezed, safety was engaged, yet the pistol went off.
Gun was disassembled, examined, reassembled, dry cycled functioned correctly....
but once a cartridge was cycled through..... Bang!

Finally a third attempt was tried and this time a slam-fire on an open breach. That is why the bullet is about 90% out of the barrel.
It appears the frame and sear were worn to the point that the pressure of a cartridge in the mag against the slide was enough to cause the firing pin to skate over the sear
and cause a slam-fire each time it was cocked. Needless to say the firing pin is removed and the pistol serves as an excellent teaching tool.

Mechanical things do break. And as one may state the discharge was accidental, it would have been negligent to allow the gun to remain in such a state. It also goes to show how all safety rules work together.

Treat EVERY firearm as if it was loaded.
Keep the muzzle under control and aimed in a safe direction.
Do not touch the trigger until ready to shoot
KNOW your target as well as what's behind it
**When in doubt get a _competent_ gunsmith involved

Yea, the last one I added, 'cause even when you think you've seen it all, something unexpected will happen.

I suppose negligent is a label for anyone who has become lax in following the safety rules, as even with an accidental mechanical failure
such negligence will magnify the effect.

A lesson for us all? 
Hopefully.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

As far as dropping the hammer on one of my 1911a pistols, I believe in letting it fall freely on a live round while being pointed in an entirely unsafe direction within my own home under certain and specific circumstances.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

[irrelevant post deleted by poster]


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