# note to handgun newbies...



## John2393 (Feb 19, 2012)

I was at a gunshop the other day, and overheard something that i hear more and more and it really bugs me when it goes unchecked... a young guy was pawing at a Judge and considering buying it, bla bla, and he said "yeah, you pull THIS bad boy out and it oughtta scare anyone, that saves me a bunch of legal crap of having to actually shoot it." So i asked (politely) "so youre buying this JUST to scare off attackers, i mean, not to shoot it in a life n death situation, but just to pull it and intimidate?" He said (i swear) "yeah...i dont want to actually KILL someone..." so i walked over to the pepper spray and pulled a can down and handed it to him. The store worker snickered, but i was serious. 

Ok just to clarify to new handgun folks. No offense meant here really, but a handgun is NOT a negotiation tool. Its not an intimidation tool. It is a weapon. A very efficient and easy to use weapon. Pulling a gun and waving it around like a fool to try to scare someone has a legal name...ita called Brandishing, and its illegal. 

Negotiations do not BEGIN when one party pulls a piece. They end. Negotiations already took place, they failed. Sorry to be so blunt and snotty but what the hell? 

Maybe im wrong. I dont know If the new handgun laws require you to waggle your weapon in someones face before you pull the trigger and i just never heard that law? 

But really..a glock 17 isnt a hunting weapon. Its made to shoot 9mm rounds. A round designed to stop baddies from doing bad stuff to you. IF During the "stopping " process, mr baddie dies, well.. thats what handguns do. If you arent comfy with that, thats totally cool. Get a tazer. Pick up a rock, whatever. But please dont go into your new purchase with the mentality of using this tool to settle arguments or intimidate people with. Its stupid, its dangerous, and its illegal. 

K, ill get off my soapbox.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Waggling a gun around will cost you,mmmmmmmmm, starting at about $5000 for legal defense, when the person sues you......if you are going to pull it, you'd better be ready to use it.......


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

Your soapbox was fine...JJ


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

berettabone said:


> Waggling a gun around will cost you,mmmmmmmmm, starting at about $5000 for legal defense, when the person sues you......if you are going to pull it, you'd better be ready to use it.......


No BB NOT just if the other person sues you, In almost every state( actually I believe EVERY state) Brandishing a deadly weapon or exhibition of a deadly weapon is a CRIME (mostly misdemeanor) if it isnt followed up by an arrest or a justified shooting they can call the police and report it and off to jail you go.All they have to do is give an accurate description of the gun to prove they have seen it and you WILL be arrested, maybe it gets dropped later but that doesnt help you right then.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

scooter said:


> No BB NOT just if the other person sues you, In almost every state( actually I believe EVERY state) Brandishing a deadly weapon or exhibition of a deadly weapon is a CRIME (mostly misdemeanor) if it isnt followed up by an arrest or a justified shooting they can call the police and report it and off to jail you go.All they have to do is give an accurate description of the gun to prove they have seen it and you WILL be arrested, maybe it gets dropped later but that doesnt help you right then.


there is no brandishing law in oregon, but in this case open carry would be a great defense.... "of course they saw my gun, i was open carrying" ....


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> there is no brandishing law in oregon, but in this case open carry would be a great defense.... "of course they saw my gun, i was open carrying" ....


Are you positive? Go to walmart and wave it around and see what happens?:mrgreen:

I got curious and found this in Oregons firearms laws

*166.190 Pointing firearm at another; courts having jurisdiction over offense. *Any person over the age of 12 years who, with or without malice, purposely points or aims any loaded or empty pistol, gun, revolver or other firearm, at or toward any other person within range of the firearm, except in self-defense, shall be fined upon conviction in any sum not less than $10 nor more than $500, or be imprisoned in the county jail not less than 10 days nor more than six months, or both. Justice courts have jurisdiction concurrent with the circuit court of the trial of violations of this section. When any person is charged before a justice court with violation of this section, the court shall, upon motion of the district attorney, at any time before trial, act as a committing magistrate, and if probable cause be established, hold such person to the grand jury. [Formerly 163.320]

That pretty much looks like a brandishing law to me...written a little different than most but there it is........


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

yes, i am positive


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## Blade (Feb 23, 2012)

I agree 110%. I saw a debate on another forum about someone who said they carry around a non-firing replica of a gun for the purpose of "intimidating" someone in a confrontation, because he was uncomfortable carrying a loaded weapon. What stunned me was the number of people who were agreeing with the guy, telling him this was a good idea. Of course, the brandishing thing still applies, even though its not a real gun. In this state, if a toy or fake gun is used in a crime and the victim believes that it is real, than it is real, as far as the law is concerned. Secondly, pulling out a gun may scare off some two bit punk, but you come across some hard core gang banger, and it's like waving a red flag in front of a bull. You're issuing a challenge, and they WILL try to take you out. And all you have to answer them with is a "gun" that goes click. Carrying a fake gun, blank firing gun, or an unloaded gun is a quick way to land in jail......or dead.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

The very best thing, of course, is to avoid the necessity of a confrontation in the first place.
Thus, you avoid the possibility of illegally brandishing your pistol, and also of standing trial for manslaughter.

The very best defense is situational and environmental awareness.
That is, don't get into the fight in the first place.

Your weapon is there only for use when all else fails.
It is the last resort.


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## dhonda02 (Feb 6, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The very best thing, of course, is to avoid the necessity of a confrontation in the first place.
> Thus, you avoid the possibility of illegally brandishing your pistol, and also of standing trial for manslaughter.
> 
> The very best defense is situational and environmental awareness.
> ...


 Darn good advice.


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## John2393 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wow. Ive heard of people carrying unloaded, but a fake gun is just plain nuts!

I didnt know it was a $5000.00 whack for brandishing. But yeah i never have had to pull my piece on a person yet, and its a 3 1/2" 44 magnum. It looks scary as hell! Im 6'4" 250 lbs with hands like a bunch of bannannas and it STILL looks like a cannon. My friends nicknamed it "Thumper". But I still dont see it as all right to pull it to scare anyone. Like i said, legal or illegal its just stupid. 

I read a really good article and if i can find it again ill post it here but it addresses the reasoning behind why this fella owns a gun for self defense, instead of a tazer or whatever (or just relying on the readiness and lightening fast response time of the police- just kidding to all you cops!) I cant remember it word for word and its kinda long, but the gist of it was this : he said 'I dont own a gun so i can force my will on others, its not to make me feel tough, or to settle my fights for me, etx... I own a gun so that in a life or death situation, with a person, or animal, i have the OPTION to use this tool to help me survive the situation, owning or even carrying a handgun doeant neccisarily mean ill even get a shot off or come out on top, it just gives me an option and possibly an edge that i wouldnt have if i were unarmed. And as far as the people part of the scenario goes, it gives me no more "power" over another peraon except to not allow someone to force me to do something, or anything for that matter, against my will.'

There was more to it and he was a writer for a living so it was written much better. But i liked it. It made a lot of sense. Kinda summarized how i feel about my piece. But ive ALWAYS been a defensive owner/carrier.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Here, in my state, I was told by my CCW instructor, that if you DO have to pull your weapon, after the incident is over, you need to go to the nearest police station, report the incident, and get your side of the story down on paper first, before the other person involved decides to go to the police, and tell them that you're some kind of crazy man waving a handgun around.........you still may be sued, but here, if you are sued, if the other person loses, they will have to pay your legal fees....makes them think twice, as long as YOU were in the right.....


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## manta (Jul 2, 2010)

There is another thread on this forum asking how many have had to use their gun. A lot said that they did not have to use their gun drawing it was enough to defuse the situation. So the gun intimidated the bad guy.

What are you saying if you have to draw your gun its time to start shooting. Police draw their guns all the time to intimate with out shooting.

I don't see a problem with using your gun to intimate or threaten in a dangerous situation you have of course be willing to use it if need be as a last resort.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

OK, I totally agree with the analysis by *John2393* on brandishing by idiots.



berettabone said:


> Waggling a gun around will cost you,mmmmmmmmm, starting at about $5000 for legal defense, when the person sues you......if you are going to pull it, you'd better be ready to use it.......


And I agree with *berettabone *too.

Especially the part about the *STARTING * dollar amount. 
My multi-talented law firm is VERY good. The best in town. 
They've done REALLY well for me. But, I have my divorce receipts to "prove" the expensive part. "My" firm partner was well worth it ! :anim_lol:


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> . . . The very best defense is situational and environmental awareness.
> That is, don't get into the fight in the first place.
> 
> Your weapon is there only for use when all else fails.
> It is the last resort.


I CERTAINLY agree with that.

Gunsite is about 13 miles north of my place. Col. Jeff Cooper built it, and lived there until he died.

His "Combat Mindset" - Cooper Color Code includes Conditions White, Yellow, Orange, and Red.
Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almost all "the folks" stumble around in Cooper's "White", totally oblivious of "anything".
Almost all cops are walking or riding around in "Yellow". NEVER give them cause them to go "Orange". Or "RED". :mrgreen:

Steve M1911A has it right. Don't get a surprise.


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## Blade (Feb 23, 2012)

It's an absolute proven fact that the best way to prevent yourself from becoming a crime statistic is to pay attention. Most criminals are looking for easy victims. Be aware of your surroundings, and be OBVIOUS about it. If you hear footsteps behind you, LOOK. If someone is lingering nearby, LOOK. Let them know that you know they are there and you are paying attention. This by itself will cause most bad guys to go look for easier game. They'll shy away from a person waling upright and looking around, noting everything that's going on. They prefer the woman walking to her car in a parking lot, with her head locked in the down position, busy texting on her cell phone.


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## Survivor (Oct 30, 2011)

manta said:


> There is another thread on this forum asking how many have had to use their gun. A lot said that they did not have to use their gun drawing it was enough to defuse the situation. So the gun intimidated the bad guy.
> 
> What are you saying if you have to draw your gun its time to start shooting. Police draw their guns all the time to intimate with out shooting.
> 
> I don't see a problem with using your gun to intimate or threaten in a dangerous situation you have of course be willing to use it if need be as a last resort.


I responded to the thread you are referring to ( I drew my gun, no shots fired). I will try to make this brief.
I make deliveries for a living. It was pre-dawn and I was in the back my truck (Ryder type box truck) preparing an order for a customer. A man with a knife jumped into my truck with the intention of stabbing/robbing me. Initially I attempted to remove him from my truck using some work equipment at my disposal. I was cornered, he was not going to quit. When I felt I had exhasted all other options, I drew my weapon and verbally gave him one last chance to leave. He did...rapidly! The safety was off, my finger on the trigger, and my target was his face (maybe 3 feet away).
When it was over I shook violently for many minutes. It still bothers me to think how close I came to using my gun. I did not draw my gun with the intention of scaring him off; no, I was prepared to shoot him...and I hate myself for it. I never want to go through that again.

I apologize for going off topic. With regards to the original post, I would have corrected the individual as well.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Survivor said:


> . I did not draw my gun with the intention of scaring him off; no, I was prepared to shoot him...and I hate myself for it. I never want to go through that again.


I do not understand why you would hate yourself for being ready to preserve your life against that of a criminal with a knife??
If you hadnt done what you did would you be here today? Do you have a family that would miss you, your love or your income to survive?
Dump the pity party and realize you did what was best and didnt go past the point that was necessary.
With my history as a LEO and if I were in your shoes at that time there would be one less felon on the planet


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Would you have felt better, if you would have let him stab you a couple times first? As soon as he jumped in the truck, and as you say, he wasn't going to quit, my mag would have been unloaded center mass....would I have felt bad, yes...would I have felt alive, yes.....


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

scooter said:


> I do not understand why you would hate yourself for being ready to preserve your life against that of a criminal with a knife??
> If you hadnt done what you did would you be here today? Do you have a family that would miss you, your love or your income to survive?
> Dump the pity party and realize you did what was best and didnt go past the point that was necessary.
> With my history as a LEO and if I were in your shoes at that time there would be one less felon on the planet


+1 he almost died because of HIS actions..... you lived because of yours..... rejoice


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## Blade (Feb 23, 2012)

+1 

I'm a big Sci Fi fan and an even bigger fan of the Firefly series. In one of the scenes, a crazed guy is holding one of the crew hostage. Another crew member distracts him. Mel draws his gun and shoots the guy in the chest. The guy looks down at his wound and says "You've killed me Mel". Mel replies "No son, you killed yourself, I just carried the bullet for a while". And that's the way I see it. If someone becomes a threat to me, or my loved ones, to the point where I need to draw and/or use my gun, he/she brought the action on themselves, not me.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Blade said:


> +1
> 
> I'm a big Sci Fi fan and an even bigger fan of the Firefly series. In one of the scenes, a crazed guy is holding one of the crew hostage. Another crew member distracts him. Mel draws his gun and shoots the guy in the chest. The guy looks down at his wound and says "You've killed me Mel". Mel replies "No son, you killed yourself, I just carried the bullet for a while". And that's the way I see it. If someone becomes a threat to me, or my loved ones, to the point where I need to draw and/or use my gun, he/she brought the action on themselves, not me.


loved the firefly....but his name was Malcolm.... Mal for short.... and to quote River _*"Mal... from the latin, it means "BAD""*_


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

:smt023Yeah Firefly!!
You wouldnt happen to be a frelling 'scaper too would ya?:mrgreen:


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

scooter said:


> :smt023Yeah Firefly!!
> You wouldnt happen to be a frelling 'scaper too would ya?:mrgreen:


not i, the gf dragged me kicking and screaming into the firefly series... i love it but still i drew the line... no farscape


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Oh, well...this thread has already been hijacked, so my own tale will not be out of place.

The next-to-last time we travelled by Amtrak, two years ago, the counter agent who checked us in had a model of Serenity on his desk. I commented about it, and we talked briefly about the series.
The last time we travelled by Amtrak, there was a serious problem with our tickets. The guy with Serenity on his desk recognized me (after a year!), took our problem over from the incompetent who was refusing to correct it, and straightened everything out for us very quickly.
It's good to know people in high places! (Outer space is a high place, right?)


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## manta (Jul 2, 2010)

It wasn't a criticism. I was making the point that sometimes having a gun and be willing to use it is enough as was in your case. You could have being justified in shooting but you did the right thing a verbal warning and the sight of the gun was enough. The original post said that when you drew your gun negations were over. In a way you where still negation you just raised the anti and that was enough.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

scooter said:


> Are you positive? Go to walmart and wave it around and see what happens?:mrgreen:
> 
> I got curious and found this in Oregons firearms laws
> 
> ...


there is a difference between this law, which is POINTING a gun at someone and BRANDISHING which is anything from actually HOLDING the gun at a low ready to actually WAVING it about.

close but no cigar my friend.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Having to pull your sidearm is very likely to intimidate your assailant and cause him to take off running without you having to fire a shot, and that is fine. But the OP is correct. To carry a firearm with the mindset and deliberate intention of NOT having to use it but rather to [hope] cause your attacker to shiver in his shoes and turn to butter borders on absurdity. If you are not mentally prepared to use it, then the answer is quite simple... don't carry it.

Regardless of what we may hear from armchair quarterbacks and pseudo heroes, unless someone has been in a similar situation, you will never really know how you're going to react when faced with an extreme encounter until it happens. Training, conditioning, and mental preparedness are your best friends to get you to the point of being ready to go the full distance should the need arise. But carrying a gun strictly and solely for the hope of intimidating an attacker is lunacy.


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## Blade (Feb 23, 2012)

In Missouri brandishing is defined as any display of a firearm in a provocative or threatening manner. So all someone has to do is answer yes to the question "Did you feel threatened?" and you may be found guilty of brandishing. In my opinion, and this is my opinion, not legal advice. I am NOT advising anyone to do anything. But in my opinion, my gun does not come out of its holster unless I intend to use it. Now, if as a result of drawing the gun, the bad guy bales, I'm obviously not going to shoot them in the back. I'm just saying I don't draw the gun until I feel the situation has reached the point where I need to use it. If that gun comes out, I want it to be clear to any idiot, that I had no other choice. 

For example, I'm in a parking lot and some guy gets hot saying I took his parking space. This happened recently. He approaches me in an openly treating manner saying he's going to beat the crap out of me. I retreated. I got back in my car and left the area. He didn't pursue, he just stood and yelled insults at me. I didn't care. Sacrificing a little bit of my pride, isn't worth getting in a situation where I have to explain why I shot someone. Now, had he pursued me, or cornered me where I had no retreat option, the rules change. By the way, I'm not a pushover. I played ice hockey for years, and have the broken teeth and scars to show for it. But now I'm a 58 year old guy with arthritis and bad knees. Standing toe to toe with a young, healthy, 250 lb guy is NOT an option. But even if it was even up, standing up to the guy when you are armed can cause problems. What if you begin to lose the fight? Can you use your gun then? You've already demonstrated a willingness to engage in violent activity. The courts have demonstrated time and again that an armed individual is held to a higher standard of restraint and behavior than an unarmed one. You KNOW the situation can escalate to the point where life may be lost. The other guy doesn't.

And PLEASE do not construe this as criticism of anyone else's opinion, or actions in a given situation. Every situation is different. Every person is different. And no one can truly say what they would or wouldn't have done in a given situation until they've been through it. It's up to each person, as responsible individuals, to do what you think is best. You have to go with your gut and do what feels right to YOU.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't go to gunshops as much as I used to, but I can't count the number of times I've heard a customer (or gunshop employee) mouth off about something totally wrong or ridiculous. 

At one point, a long time ago, I would have cared. 

Now? Not so much. :watching:


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## capgun (Jan 27, 2012)

Some mindsets regard weapons presentation as a challenge. Most times when men are killed by armed women their last words were "You ain't gonna shoot me!" just before they jumped in.


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## FearNot (Feb 19, 2012)

steve m1911a1 said:


> the very best defense is situational and environmental awareness.
> That is, don't get into the fight in the first place.
> 
> Your weapon is there only for use when all else fails.
> It is the last resort.


amen!


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## SigmaBoy (Mar 18, 2012)

Well said Blade. I'm like you and I've swallowed my pride quite a few times. Situations like a parking spot isn't worth a confrontation especially that we are armed. We are bigger men than them. My life's still at peace and that's the way I like it.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

scooter said:


> No BB NOT just if the other person sues you, In almost every state( actually I believe EVERY state) Brandishing a deadly weapon or exhibition of a deadly weapon is a CRIME (mostly misdemeanor) if it isnt followed up by an arrest or a justified shooting they can call the police and report it and off to jail you go.All they have to do is give an accurate description of the gun to prove they have seen it and you WILL be arrested, maybe it gets dropped later but that doesnt help you right then.


In New York, I believe it is called "menacing". If they don't think you were a reall menace they will reduce it to "disturbing the peace". Either way, you lose your pistol license.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

manta said:


> It wasn't a criticism. I was making the point that sometimes having a gun and be willing to use it is enough as was in your case. You could have being justified in shooting but you did the right thing a verbal warning and the sight of the gun was enough. The original post said that when you drew your gun negations were over. In a way you where still negation you just raised the anti and that was enough.


The gun coming out is most DEFINITELY NOT part of the negotiation. Why? Because guns do not deploy instantaneously. When the situation dictates that you are at the point of no return, that doesn't mean the "shooty" part, it means the point at which you can still deploy your weapon. The "shooty" part is a separate decision.

In other words, the situation is fluid and may change from when you decided that this is the point at which gun clears leather. Happened in my situation too. The situation was escalating, so I escalated my response. I wasn't negotiating with him, I was preparing to put a bullet between his eyes. I couldn't have deployed my gun if I'd waited until the "shooty" decision was made. He'd have been right on top of me and my brains would have probably been leaking from my ear.

Once the gun was out, I hadn't decided to shoot, I was preparing to shoot because you can't shoot someone from your holster.


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## multistage (Feb 24, 2011)

You don't ever draw a weapon with the hope that you will scare an assailant. If you draw, it had by God better be YOU who is scared.

Fake gun. Good Lord.


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