# Open carry.



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I know that I've touched on this topic a few times in the past. My wife and I were out and about running some errands. We stopped for lunch @ Culver's, now that they've opened up their dining room again.

Anyways, the tables are regulated to about 50% of full capacity. After we placed out order, we chose a small two person table against a wall. About 6 or 7 feet away from us, was another couple seated at a two person table, but their table was very close to the foot traffic path.

The male was open carrying a full-sized semi-auto. He had it in a plastic holster that appeared to be a Level 1 type security. Nothing more than a thumb break. He was a pretty heavy individual and his butt was about 1 foot away from where people were walking back & forth. He was carrying on his right side.

As others were coming and going, it was obvious to all that he was carrying. More than a couple of times, children would see that and make a comment that I'm quite sure he could hear easily enough.

He made no attempt what-so-ever to secure his handgun by either keeping an arm against it, or having chosen a better place to park his ass, and not make it visible / accessible to those passing by.

If you live in an open carry state, that is great. As I've said often enough, if you do carry, you have a duty and an obligation to keep that handgun secure at all times. Doesn't matter where you are or might be doing, you have an obligation to keep it as secure as possible. I was able to observe this guy for at least 30 min. He never even gave me the impression that he was aware of it, as if he had forgotten all about it. It was his body language and behavior. It was almost as if he was wearing it for shock value. That's the impression I got.

If you choose to open carry, you must adopt and maintain a tactical mindset at all times. That includes *NOT* presenting the handgun to others that might take advantage of the situation that you placed yourself in. These are indeed, crazy times, and lots of people that cannot be trusted.

Anyways, this guy was so wrong to sit where he did. There were open tables available that would have provided a much better situation. It just rubs me the wrong way when I see individuals such as the one in question, open carry and not do a better job of it.

Most any adult with half a brain could have relieved him of his handgun easily enough.


----------



## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Wisconsin has been open carry forever. I never open carry in public. Out in the woods, walking the Rustic Roads, sure. Every single time I have seen open carry in the last two years it was for attention. " Look at me, I'm a real bad guy, " Type of thing. Usually, a shiny inexpensive brand carried in Wal Mart special nylon. One guy had an open topped holster that dumped the gun out twice while he was shopping and once in the parking lot. I saw it both times in the store and cringed. A man I knew told me the parking lot thing he saw was especially bad with the gun hooked to a grocery bag and flying up in the air.


----------



## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

I personally don’t see the need for open carry in this day and age. Who really needs the attention, and who really wants to be the prime target of a bad guy? Surprise is a big part of tactical advantage. Why would anyone want to give that up?


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I see people open carrying fixed knife blades in holders with just a button leather strap. It used to bother me, until I realized it was my own insecurities of not knowing that persons mindset.

It's awful risky trying to take an open carry gun away from someone..


Tangof said:


> Wisconsin has been open carry forever. I never open carry in public. Out in the woods, walking the Rustic Roads, sure. Every single time I have seen open carry in the last two years it was for attention. " Look at me, I'm a real bad guy, " Type of thing. Usually, a shiny inexpensive brand carried in Wal Mart special nylon. One guy had an open topped holster that dumped the gun out twice while he was shopping and once in the parking lot. I saw it both times in the store and cringed. A man I knew told me the parking lot thing he saw was especially bad with the gun hooked to a grocery bag and flying up in the air.


Wow !!
That does sound bad, lol, losing possession of your firearm could get you in hot water.. lol. CCW. or Open carry


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Those with mental issues don't consider risk as something to worry about. If they'll try to disarm a police officer, they'll do the same to the average Joe who is carrying.


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

If you are concerned enough about your personal safety to carry a weapon you need to be of the proper mindset.
Open carry immediately changes your status from* "that guy"* to *"that guy with a gun on his belt."*
Proper concealment allows you to stay out of a disagreement until all options are gone. Open carry may not provide as many options.
GW


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Those with mental issues don't consider risk as something to worry about. If they'll try to disarm a police officer, they'll do the same to the average Joe who is carrying.


Should the police CCW to eliminate that possibility?


----------



## Slowalkintexan (Feb 6, 2007)

Para and gold,,, both you guys really go to the extreme so quickly.; I think you need to ratchet back your thinking a step or two , and stop and thoink about it.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

In Arizona open carry was always legal in fact at one time that was the only way that you could legally carry a sidearm. That is until 1994 when they passed a law where you then could apply for and needed a permit to carry concealed. Permits were "shall issue". This was followed by Constitutional carry in 2010 where permits are not required for either method of carry. Permits are now optional mostly for reciprocity with other states.

While I myself for strategic reasons do not advocate open carry or practice it in public. However a lot of people are used to that mode of carry and have done so for years. I'm guessing that for them the habit is hard to break? Now that Arizona is a Constitutional carry state I don't see too many people openly carrying a sidearm anymore. However it's not unusual to see people going about their daily business open carrying. I've yet to see anyone getting bent outta' shape over it. If they do I doubt they've lived here very long or may be tourists from out of state?

If open carry were made illegal then accidentally "printing" could possibly get you arrested. All it takes is a gust of wind to blow your garment over your sidearm exposing it to the public or bending over to pick something up. Having a permit that requires you to carry concealed means just that, CONCEALED.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Slowalkintexan said:


> Para and gold,,, both you guys really go to the extreme so quickly.; I think you need to ratchet back your thinking a step or two , and stop and thoink about it.


Naw......no need, I'm good.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> Should the police CCW to eliminate that possibility?


Now you're just acting silly................


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Slowalkintexan said:


> Para and gold,,, both you guys really go to the extreme so quickly.; I think you need to ratchet back your thinking a step or two , and stop and thoink about it.


After* thoinking *about it, open carry is a bad idea.
I'm not sure that Paratrooper or myself need to ratchet back anything. We disagree and agree so far without a referee and I would not have it any other way. 
I respect his point of view and he may tolerate my own opinion on occasion, but I think that what you think is not going to effect what I type or how I get along with my esteemed forum members......... Hell, I still think of Saildesign as a lost friend.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Goldwing said:


> After* thoinking *about it, open carry is a bad idea.
> I'm not sure that Paratrooper or myself need to ratchet back anything. We disagree and agree so far without a referee and I would not have it any other way.
> I respect his point of view and he may tolerate my own opinion on occasion, but I think that what you think is not going to effect what I type or how I get along with my esteemed forum members......... Hell, I still think of Saildesign as a lost friend.


Gotta say, you hit the nail on the head! We are two different individuals, so we will think differently some of the time.

Just because you are wrong more times than you are right, I'd never hold that against you. I still think that you are a decent guy.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Open carry or concealed carry. Take your pick, but do so responsibly.


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Just because you are wrong more times than you are right, I'd never hold that against you


At least we agreed on my last post. As far as my ratio of correct verses incorrect posts, that is opinion. 
Happy to share mine with you 'troop!

GW


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

pic said:


> It's awful risky trying to take an open carry gun away from someone..


Why, no. No it's not


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

My personal opinion (based on my experience) is that open carry causes more problems than it solves BUT I would rather it be YOUR choice than The State's.

If I run into somebody open carrying in public I make it a rule to mind my own business. If I run into one of my neighbors open carrying I act like the gun doesn't exist.

I open carried for two years as a security guard. I've had people try to take my gun from me. I've had people threaten to take my gun from me and I had one absolute ASS who made a point of FINDING me every time he came on my site and make some stupid remark about how he'd better be careful or I was going to shoot him. It was funny the first FIVE HUNDRED times he said it (not really) after that it got old. He did a lot of work for the client I was contracted to so I had to put up with it but I got pretty good at finding things to do on the other end of the property whenever he showed up. 

When I first started carrying I open carried (apart from work) until the novelty wore off, then I quit. The older I get the more I'd prefer that people outside my IMMEDIATE family didn't even know I owned a gun. 

I meant what I said about not wanting open carry to be outlawed but I also kind of think if it ever is outlawed it's going to be open carriers doing it to themselves. 

I read a blog post by Tamara Keel one time in which she said "There are people who open carry and there are people who open carry AT you." and that's kind of what I see. 

I've never seen a person (including me) open carrying who didn't have an attitude. It's like they want you to see the gun and they want you to know they're not the guy you want to mess with. 

I've also never seen anybody open carrying who had a DECENT retention holster. I seen a BUNCH of SERPAs and the rest were Uncle Mike's. 

I have to admit this is changing but a lot of them that I've seen weren't practicing any kind of situational awareness at all. I see a lot of people walking around open carrying and carrying something in their gun hand. I remember seeing one old man with a cane in his gun hand. IDK maybe it was a sword cane. 

And I won't even talk about the idiots who carry ARs at Starbucks. 

I don't have a lot of use for people who open carry and I go out of my way to avoid them when I run into them in public.

But I've also read a couple of discussions on other forums where the poster sees somebody open carrying and goes out their way to tell them what an idiot they are. I think that's just as counter productive.

I remember one discussion in which the poster saw somebody open carrying, said something to them about it, got told to mind their own business and went to find the store manager to complain!?!? Remember, this was on a gun enthusiast forum. Us, the people who are supposed to be the Second Amendment supporters


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> Why, no. No it's not


I definitely agree any type of carry should be secure including CCW carry.
In the video , looked unholstered. 


paratrooper said:


> Open carry or concealed carry. Take your pick, but do so responsibly.


Responsibly is very much to the point. Great point. Totally agree.
There are many unresponsible gun owners habits or acts that drive me crazy, lol. 
Leaving guns in glove boxes while your vehicle is unattended , is another personal opinion I have of irresponsibility.

I was in a local gun store last week. 
It scared the heck out of me listening to the questions of first time buyers and the types of guns they were purchasing, lol craziness.

I wholeheartedly believe in mandatory training, especially with all these different formatted guns available. 
I grew up with hunter safety courses, gun responsibility people all around me. We are lacking the training of yesterday and putting guns into people's hands ,,,,their reasoning in many purchases is out of fear.

A responsible new gun owner would normally get the proper training to learn how to use the tool (gun) it's not happening . This is not a learn by your mistakes kinda situation.

By the lack of training and responsible handling of any firearm or carry method doesn't enforce our 2nd AMENDMENT, it actually starts to reinforce The lefts argument against guns.


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

https://www.fox21news.com/news/crime/police-suspect-arrested-after-assaulting-man-stealing-his-gun/

Long story short, the "victim" is riding his scooter on the sidewalk when he sees a vagrant laying on the side walk. Instead of driving around the guy the scooter driver starts an altercation with him and demands he get off the sidewalk. The vagrant threatens our hero who then displays his OC firearm. Then the vagrant administers an educational beat down and steals the scooter driver's gun.

Some things aren't clear in the story:

I don't know if "Scooter" is a motor bike or a skateboard with a motor.

The story says scooter guy "displayed" his firearm I don't know if he drew it or turned his body to show the vagrant the gun.

This happened about a block from my house I do know that the area is very open and scooter guy would have had ample opportunity to just drive around the guy and continue on his way. He kinda put himself in that situation.

If you don't feel like reading the whole story the cops caught the vagrant and the gun a few blocks away


----------



## Minorcan (Apr 18, 2020)

Same old, same old discussion and everyone has an opinion. Some people don’t always make the best decisions. No one seems to support open carry, probably for good reason but it can be practical in some non-public cases. Either way more regulations are not the solution.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Minorcan said:


> Same old, same old discussion and everyone has an opinion. Some people don't always make the best decisions. No one seems to support open carry, probably for good reason but it can be practical in some non-public cases. Either way more regulations are not the solution.


I'm not referring to regulations, I'm referring to proper training as you would driving a car, flying an airplane, hunting. .
What these all have in common is the safety of other's lives that your lack of training may impact. 
If someone wants to get their gun an go on their own property and blow their head off, I'm ok with that. 
But when others are around you, your lack of training can carelessly affect others . 
Driving a car in public ,flying a commercial plane, carrying a gun in public.
Training, Training


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Would I hand over a pistol to an eight year old who's never shot or even held a handgun. 
That would be very irresponsible on my part. 
That's what's going on in some states except for the eight year olds involvement, lol


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

pic said:


> I wholeheartedly believe in mandatory training,


What other civil liberties would you put a training requirement on?



pic said:


> I'm not referring to regulations, I'm referring to proper training as you would driving a car, flying an airplane, hunting. .
> What these all have in common is the safety of other's lives that your lack of training may impact.


Do you know what else they have in common? None of them are constitutionally protected civil liberties


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> What other civil liberties would you put a training requirement on?
> 
> Do you know what else they have in common? None of them are constitutionally protected civil liberties


My right to life ( Security) and liberty should not be infringed upon sort of
Sums up the whole constitution. 
A well regulated people of arms.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Cypher said:


> *What other civil liberties would you put a training requirement on?*
> 
> Do you know what else they have in common? *None of them are constitutionally protected civil liberties*


That pretty much sums it up very well.

The next question should be WHO determines how much training is required, how often and at what cost? Politicians such as Mike Bloomberg, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Beto O'Rourke etc? Then a Constitutionally protected right becomes a privilege that only the rich and famous or politically well connected can afford and exercise. Make no mistake about it once we allow these criminal politicians to infringe on our unalienable God given rights there'll be no stopping them. All they care about is absolute power and control. The 2nd Amendment is their main obstacle.

"There are only a few laws in history that are universally applicable. One of these is that the ruling classes do not want the peasantry armed. They will do what they can to convince you that to be armed is dangerous. They will attempt to do this while they themselves are surrounded by armed body guards. Idiots will not notice this hypocrisy and sycophants will ignore it. Fools will surrender their arms in the name of "safety". They will insensibly surrender their liberty at the same time. This is how slaves are made."

We've already compromised enough with the gun control acts of 1934 and 1968. Yet criminals still have access to firearms and continue to use them for nefarious purposes. Only those who use firearms for any lawful purposes are affected by any of these laws. Since we already have thousands of laws that address every conceivable criminal act imaginable, along with thousands of laws that address both the criminal and negligent misuse of firearms. WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE LAWS, PERIOD.

Laws that criminalize and regulate the mere possession of inanimate objects only serve to criminalize the innocent. They also serve as a method to punish one's political enemies by a political party who has shown nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't subscribe to their way of thinking. Not only by criminalizing their lawful activities and possessions but by relinquishing their civil liberties as well. Such as private property rights and due process under the law.

Owning and carrying a gun and driving a vehicle are two entirely different things. As your chances of getting into an auto accident are far greater than being accidentally shot by someone who is lawfully carrying a gun either open or concealed. Besides there is no Constitutionally protected right to operate a motor vehicle on a public highway. Yet we do have the right to defend ourselves both inside and outside of our homes. In Constitutional carry states that right extends to the means of which to protect ourselves.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> That pretty much sums it up very well.
> 
> The next question should be WHO determines how much training is required, how often and at what cost? Politicians such as Mike Bloomberg, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Beto O'Rourke etc? Then a Constitutionally protected right becomes a privilege that only the rich and famous or politically well connected can afford and exercise. Make no mistake about it once we allow these criminal politicians to infringe on our unalienable God given rights there'll be no stopping them. All they care about is absolute power and control. The 2nd Amendment is their main obstacle.
> 
> ...


The right wing pro gun activists should should be the body to regulate anything involving the 2nd amendment. 
If the right wing pro gun activists don't act on the regulated 2nd amendment agreement with the right to bear arms ,,IMO we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Would you hand out a firearm plus ammo to your family members and friends without knowing their abilities to handle the firearm? 
That would be irresponsible and against the constitutions 2nd amendment right and against the first amendment rights.

Comparing driving a car and operating a firearm in public does reflect the constitutional right to Security, life and liberty


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

There are plenty of individuals carrying either openly or concealed that don't have a clue as to what they can or can't do. Actually, a lot more than we'd like to think.

Anyways, some education and/or training can go along ways in regards to being safe and responsible. I'd be open minded to that being somewhat mandated to some degree or another.

Times now are much different than they were 200+ years ago. What was fair & effective back then, isn't so much these days.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

DES,
You're not smelling the coffee, guns are at record sales. The right is missing an opportune time to express their concerns. Guns are getting into the hands of first time handgun owners who've never held a gun before.
There should be a responsible measure from the right to secure our 2nd amendment rights aren't being reversed into an abuse of our long time argument.

BTW, the Dems aren't worried about the AFFORDABLE CARE ACT or ROE VS WADE .
They don't want the nomination of AMY Because in reality the Election results most likely will go to the Supreme Court


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> There are plenty of individuals carrying either openly or concealed that don't have a clue as to what they can or can't do. Actually, a lot more than we'd like to think.
> 
> Anyways, some education and/or training can go along ways in regards to be safe and responsible. I'd be open minded to that being somewhat mandated to some degree or another.
> 
> Times now are much different than they were 200+ years ago. What was fair & effective back then, isn't so much these days.


I totally agree, pro gun activists should control the situation. 
Responsible gun ownership


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

A friend of mine bought his first handgun, semi auto, magazine. 
He couldn't understand how the bullet got from the magazine into the chamber. True story. 
I had to explain it to him more then once, until we got the chance to shoot the gun


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Never really bought the _God given right_ part. According to who?

Was this a witnessed event, or is there some kind of an agreement in writing?


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> The right wing pro gun activists should should be the body to regulate anything involving the 2nd amendment.
> If the right wing pro gun activists don't act on the regulated 2nd amendment agreement with the right to bear arms ,,IMO we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
> 
> Would you hand out a firearm plus ammo to your family members and friends without knowing their abilities to handle the firearm?
> ...


No matter what the right wing pro gun activists do the left wing is out to destroy our Constitutional Republic. It's up to right wing pro gun activists to stop them by refusing to compromise with them. I'm not about to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with a political party that has vowed to destroy us. The more you give into them the more they will demand and take. It's not just about guns. Anyone that pays any attention to politics would understand that. It's the reason why we have the 2nd Amendment in the first place. I'm not willing to compromise that "right" into extinction.

I've already mentioned that we already have thousands of laws that address both the criminal and NEGLIGENT misuse of firearms. *I have no problems with those laws.* I don't think that you'll find too many people that would just hand anybody they don't trust with a gun and ammo? Just as I wouldn't hand over the keys to my vehicle to someone that I know is a reckless driver who's had a number of accidents. What that has to do with either the 1st or 2nd Amendments is beyond me? There's a difference between individual rights and criminal negligence laws. Rights are rights, laws are laws each serve a different purpose.

*Criminal Negligence - Meaning, Application And Defenses*
www.shouselaw.com/.../laws/criminal-negligence
Apr 23, 2020 · Criminal negligence refers to conduct in which a person ignores a known or obvious risk, or disregards the life and safety of others. Federal and state courts describe this behavior as a form of recklessness, where the person acts significantly different than an ordinary person under similar circumstances. An example is a parent leaving a loaded firearm within reach of a small child.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

paratrooper said:


> Never really bought the _God given right_ part. According to who?
> 
> Was this a witnessed event, or is there some kind of an agreement in writing?


According to those who wrote the Declaration of Independence and drafted the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I guess you've never heard of the phrase "We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights?" I don't think that the founders of this nation had our mothers and fathers in mind? It doesn't state that: "We are endowed by our mothers and fathers with certain unalienable rights" or "We are endowed by our elected officials with certain unalienable rights." If that were the case it would've been stated as such.

Regardless of whether you believe in God or not? It's what our individual civil liberties are based upon, that it was our Creator that endowed us with these natural rights, not mortal man. Therefore only our Creator can rescind them not the government or an elected body of officials. These are the principles of which this nation was founded on. It doesn't matter whether you or anyone else "buys it" or not? As neither you or anyone alive during the past two centuries wrote those founding principles.

If you wish to change it than go ahead and amend the Constitution. Good luck with that as it will require a two thirds majority vote in Congress and the Senate along with two thirds of all state legislatures. Until that happens our Constitution and Bill of Rights will remain as the laws of the land.
Of course if you don't like or agree with it you always have the option to move to another country of your liking.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

It's tough for me to put a while lot of faith in mankind, when he is the most imperfect species of any animal known to exist.

What was relevant 200+ years ago, doesn't always remain relevant today.

I've never known or heard of a perfect person. They don't exist, in today's time or hundreds of years ago.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> No matter what the right wing pro gun activists do the left wing is out to destroy our Constitutional Republic. It's up to right wing pro gun activists to stop them by refusing to compromise with them. I'm not about to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with a political party that has vowed to destroy us. The more you give into them the more they will demand and take. It's not just about guns. Anyone that pays any attention to politics would understand that. It's the reason why we have the 2nd Amendment in the first place. I'm not willing to compromise that "right" into extinction.
> 
> I've already mentioned that we already have thousands of laws that address both the criminal and NEGLIGENT misuse of firearms. *I have no problems with those laws.* I don't think that you'll find too many people that would just hand anybody they don't trust with a gun and ammo? Just as I wouldn't hand over the keys to my vehicle to someone that I know is a reckless driver who's had a number of accidents. What that has to do with either the 1st or 2nd Amendments is beyond me? There's a difference between individual rights and criminal negligence laws. Rights are rights, laws are laws each serve a different purpose.
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't you allow an untrained bunch of friends or family access to use your firearms? 
Why do states allow the sale of these same firearms to the public only on a background check? 
If they allow these people in public untrained, that puts my constitutional rights to life , liberty, Security at risk.

I never mentioned compromise with the DEMS . Im stating the pro gun activists take control, not compromise. Safety and proper training is never a compromise. 
When I first started hunting I had to take a hunters safety course mandated by pro hunting enthusiasts. 
A fence will only last as long as its owners maintain its integrity. 
It's our 2nd amendment, should be our regulations, no compromises with the left. Absolutely agree on that


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> It's tough for me to put a while lot of faith in mankind, when he is the most imperfect species of any animal known to exist.
> 
> What was relevant 200+ years ago, doesn't always remain relevant today.
> 
> I've never known or heard of a perfect person. They don't exist, in today's time or hundreds of years ago.


I agree wholeheartedly, that's why we've added amendments to the constitution. 
Our 2nd amendment does secure our rights to bear arms. 
The words "WELL REGULATED" can be interpreted differently. 
Des, 
Mentions we have many regulations in place already, I can't believe training or learning is not one of them. 
We go to school, we learn, life is a constant learning process. 
I can't believe we are disagreeing about proper firearms learning or training.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Des, 
I'm agreeing to back your opinion, we need more hardliners. 
I'm a former training and safety guy in the construction industry. 
AUTHORIIZED OSHA TRAINER. Seen plenty of accidents due to a lack of training. Seen plenty with the proper training ,
Got knocked down myself by a piece of equipment by an unauthorized untrained individual.
It was a few surgical procedures to fix that knockdown, lol. 
But I do appreciate your hard stance. 
I also stand hard , right behind you, 
Keep up the fight.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

paratrooper said:


> It's tough for me to put a while lot of faith in mankind, when he is the most imperfect species of any animal known to exist.
> 
> What was relevant 200+ years ago, doesn't always remain relevant today.
> 
> I've never known or heard of a perfect person. They don't exist, in today's time or hundreds of years ago.


Regardless of what happened 200+ years ago the principles of which this country was founded on are just as relevant today. Whether you or I agree with them or not. Obviously you do not. Technology may have changed but that's about it. It's those principles that made this country the greatest place on earth. A country that millions of people throughout the world are trying to get into instead of fleeing to get out of.

None of this has anything to do with whether mankind is perfect or not. Our founders set out to form a more perfect union. I'd say they did a pretty good job of it in spite of any flaws. Hopefully we can keep it.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.---Preamble to the United States Constitution


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

When I took my training for the Wisconsin concealed carry permit six or seven years ago I was out the door with a diploma in well under three hours.
I never shot a gun or even watched a video of someone firing a gun. The instructor could not answer many questions from the class. This was at a state owned technical school.
Fortunately I had 48 years of training and experience at the time. Most of the class knew nothing, but we all got a diploma.

IMHO those who don't know what they are doing can save themselves a lot of grief by seeking out good training. Making it mandatory is a shitty idea any way I look at it.

GW


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Goldwing said:


> When I took my training for the Wisconsin concealed carry permit six or seven years ago I was out the door with a diploma in well under three hours.
> I never shot a gun or even watched a video of someone firing a gun. The instructor could not answer many questions from the class. This was at a state owned technical school.
> Fortunately I had 48 years of training and experience at the time. Most of the class knew nothing, but we all got a diploma.
> 
> ...


Lol, 
When I first started hunting the people around you were very conscientious of your safety. Cleaning the shotgun. Constantly reminding each other of anything you may be doing wrong. 
Introducing a new member to your hunting party was closely watched. 
Performing deer drives with people posted could be very dangerous. 
It was a different time then. 
Hunters would buy their own property just to safely hunt the land and maybe knowing the deer on the land is yours if they didn't get spooked off


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> Des,
> I'm agreeing to back your opinion, we need more hardliners.
> I'm a former training and safety guy in the construction industry.
> AUTHORIIZED OSHA TRAINER. Seen plenty of accidents due to a lack of training. Seen plenty with the proper training ,
> ...


I've had people that know me that don't own any guns that have expressed interest in buying a gun for the first time. The first thing I tell them is to seek out instruction for the proper and safe handling of firearms before choosing a gun as there are many courses available along with a wide variety of firearms to suit their needs. I'm not opposed to training in fact I'm in favor of it and have taken both safety and tactical handgun courses myself.

That being said I am vehemently opposed to making it mandatory where some elected bureaucrat/politician gets to pick and choose who may or may not exercise a Constitutional right based on conditions that they impose. They can implement exorbitant fees or require courses that even Seal Team 6 couldn't pass. They can make it nearly impossible to exercise that right. If you think I'm kidding just try and get a concealed weapons permit in a place like New York City. Unless you're rich and famous or politically well connected you can just forget about it.

In places like New York City even if you've gone through the process of getting a concealed weapons permit elsewhere, the moment you set foot in that God awful place with a concealed weapon you're an instant felon. This in spite of the fact that you've already been fingerprinted, investigated and taken all of the required courses to obtain a concealed weapons permit in another jurisdiction.

What a lot of people even some that are supposedly on our side don't understand is that our opposition will never be satisfied until the 2nd Amendment is eradicated from the Bill of Rights entirely. However they can only do it incrementally with regulation after regulation over time. It's what they call the boiling frog syndrome. Which is the inability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually until it's too late.


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

I don't even know where to get into this discussion. One thing I do know is that while yes Firearms sales and Firearms ownership all-time record highs according to the CDC accidental firearms related injuries and deaths are at historic LOWS. 


So apparently there's not a real problem. We're up to I think it's 16 States now that don't require you to have any type of permit at all to carry a handgun, concealed or openly, on your person and nobody's reporting an increase in the number of firearms related accidents in those States

I'm not aware of any firearm sold in the United States that doesn't come with a manual. I'm not aware of any Firearms manufacturer in the United States who won't send you a manual if you ask. 

So what level of training are we talking about? If you can't grasp the four rules in about 10 minutes what good would more "Safety" instruction do?


----------



## Minorcan (Apr 18, 2020)

You can’t make stupid people smart with training, ask any teacher. The stupid will always be with us. There are laws, often unenforced, to deal with stupidity. Having “pic” decide that we all need training is not the fix to any problem. From his posts here he seems to be a trainer So it makes sense he would go there but as much as OSHA is a good organization with excellent training and trainers we still have industrial accidents. Why, because stupid people Do stupid things and no amount of training will fix that.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> I don't even know where to get into this discussion. One thing I do know is that while yes Firearms sales and Firearms ownership all-time record highs according to the CDC accidental firearms related injuries and deaths are at historic LOWS.
> 
> So apparently there's not a real problem. We're up to I think it's 16 States now that don't require you to have any type of permit at all to carry a handgun, concealed or openly, on your person and nobody's reporting an increase in the number of firearms related accidents in those States
> 
> ...


If it comes with an owners manual, that's all you need. 
If that's your position we'll leave it at that.
Hopefully they were trained or educated enough to READ. 
Ohh Reading comes with a textbook or manual. 
Why have teachers if Manuals are available??


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Minorcan said:


> You can't make stupid people smart with training, ask any teacher. The stupid will always be with us. There are laws, often unenforced, to deal with stupidity. Having "pic" decide that we all need training is not the fix to any problem. From his posts here he seems to be a trainer So it makes sense he would go there but as much as OSHA is a good organization with excellent training and trainers we still have industrial accidents. Why, because stupid people Do stupid things and no amount of training will fix that.


Cranes , excavators, Running electrical wiring, Fall Protection all come with Manuals . 
In order to operate a Construction Crane you need a certain amount of training, even with an owners manual. 
Why have Apprenticeship Programs to learn a trade ? 
Lot of this is common sense guys. 
A manual or CDC statistics just doesn't compare to a solid learning experience.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> I've had people that know me that don't own any guns that have expressed interest in buying a gun for the first time. The first thing I tell them is to seek out instruction for the proper and safe handling of firearms before choosing a gun as there are many courses available along with a wide variety of firearms to suit their needs. I'm not opposed to training in fact I'm in favor of it and have taken both safety and tactical handgun courses myself.
> 
> That being said I am vehemently opposed to making it mandatory where some elected bureaucrat/politician gets to pick and choose who may or may not exercise a Constitutional right based on conditions that they impose. They can implement exorbitant fees or require courses that even Seal Team 6 couldn't pass. They can make it nearly impossible to exercise that right. If you think I'm kidding just try and get a concealed weapons permit in a place like New York City. Unless you're rich and famous or politically well connected you can just forget about it.
> 
> ...


I acquired my NYs CCW permit without any required courses or training.
Your information is skewed, as permits are issued differently as per county requirements.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Another piece of information us pro gun people should take notice of .
The criminal element who own guns, where are these guns coming from


desertman said:


> I've had people that know me that don't own any guns that have expressed interest in buying a gun for the first time. The first thing I tell them is to seek out instruction for the proper and safe handling of firearms before choosing a gun as there are many courses available along with a wide variety of firearms to suit their needs. I'm not opposed to training in fact I'm in favor of it and have taken both safety and tactical handgun courses myself.
> 
> That being said I am vehemently opposed to making it mandatory where some elected bureaucrat/politician gets to pick and choose who may or may not exercise a Constitutional right based on conditions that they impose. They can implement exorbitant fees or require courses that even Seal Team 6 couldn't pass. They can make it nearly impossible to exercise that right. If you think I'm kidding just try and get a concealed weapons permit in a place like New York City. Unless you're rich and famous or politically well connected you can just forget about it.
> 
> ...


I think the real major threat to the 2nd amendment may be our inability to keep the firearms out of the Criminals Hands, Because they are pointing their Finger at the law abiding as a source of illegal guns.
What do we about that ?
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> I acquired my NYs CCW permit without any required courses or training.
> Your information is skewed, as permits are issued differently as per county requirements.


My information is not skewed. I mentioned New York City not New York State*.

New York State concealed weapons permits are not valid in New York City neither are permits from any other jurisdiction whether they be from New York State or any other place throughout the United States that issues concealed weapons permits.

I have two friends here that have lived in New York that had to take a firearms safety course before they could get a permit. They moved out here to get away from all of that bullshit. Even law enforcement officers both active duty and retired have to get a permit for their own personal handguns. I also know three of them, one was a corrections officer the other's were Mt. Vernon and New York City police officers.

There are God only knows how many states or municipalities that require a firearms safety course before they will issue a permit. I have an Arizona CCW, I had to take one here in Arizona where a concealed weapons permit is not required to carry a handgun either open or concealed. Just because the county you live in does not require one does not mean that others don't. *It would be nearly impossible for me to list every jurisdiction's requirements to obtain a concealed weapons permit throughout the entire United States. *

Indeed each county in New York has their own requirements as there are no state preemption statutes. In other words counties and municipalities are free to enact their own gun laws that are more restrictive than the state's. Some counties issue unrestricted permits that are valid throughout New York State with the exception of New York City and I think but am not sure about Buffalo? Some counties only issue restricted permits such as target and hunting or premises only.

Restricted permits are just that, you can only carry or possess a handgun according to the restrictions listed on the permit even when visiting counties that issue unrestricted permits to their residents. If you have a permit that is restricted to target and hunting only, you can only carry a handgun while engaged in those activities. Get caught carrying a handgun in public for anything other than that and they can revoke your permit and confiscate your handgun(s). Whereas if you have an unrestricted permit you can legally carry unrestricted throughout the entire state even in counties that only issue restricted permits to their residents. *Again the exception is New York City and possibly Buffalo.*

In New York State a county judge is designated as the county's licensing officer who has to sign off on and approve an applicant's permit. It's also left up to that individual to decide what type of permit you'll be issued. One person I know applied for an unrestricted permit (full carry) but was denied and issued a restricted permit limited to target and hunting instead.

*In places like *New York City* even if you've gone through the process of getting a concealed weapons permit elsewhere, the moment you set foot in that God awful place with a concealed weapon you're an instant felon. This in spite of the fact that you've already been fingerprinted, investigated and taken all of the required courses to obtain a concealed weapons permit in another jurisdiction.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> My information is not skewed. I mentioned New York City not New York State*.
> 
> New York State concealed weapons permits are not valid in New York City neither are permits from any other jurisdiction whether they be from New York State or any other place throughout the United States that issues concealed weapons permits.
> 
> ...


NyCity is like another state , you got that right


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> NyCity is like another state , you got that right


If the Democrats take control of all three branches of government the entire country will be like New York City probably worse as there will be no way to stop them from implementing their entire agenda. Maybe then people will realize how important the 2nd Amendment and Constitutional law are? As far as compromise: *NOT ONE INCH!*

As far as New York City goes you can have years of firearms training and have undergone numerous background checks, but unless you have a concealed weapons permit issued from the City of New York you can forget about lawfully carrying a concealed weapon there. That all started with the Sullivan Act in 1911 and has only gotten worse.


----------



## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

The Second Amendment is a prescribed Federal right. If you have been background checked, fingerprinted and cleared by the main Federal Law Enforcement agency as to your status to own and carry a handgun, why should any state have any additional say in it? I can understand having to obtain a State driver's license where you live, because driving on public highways is a privilege, not a right. Gun ownership and use for self defense is a right and should be treated as such anywhere in this nation. Simply because someone crosses a state border does not instantly make them ineligible to carry a handgun for self defense.


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

pic said:


> If it comes with an owners manual, that's all you need.
> If that's your position we'll leave it at that.
> Hopefully they were trained or educated enough to READ.
> Ohh Reading comes with a textbook or manual.
> Why have teachers if Manuals are available??


If you're going to argue the point at least try to come up with a cogent argument.

According to the CDC fire ARMS-related deaths and accidents are at an all time low. There are currently 16 states that don't require any form of permit to carry a gun at all. They don't have a higher rate of accidents or deaths related to guns.

Several other states require no training before issuing a concealed handgun permit. Again, no statistically higher number of accidents.

Why don't you address that?


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> If you're going to argue the point at least try to come up with a cogent argument.
> 
> According to the CDC fire-related deaths and accidents are at an all time low. There are currently 16 states that don't require any form of permit to carry a gun at all. They don't have a higher rate of accidents or deaths related to guns.
> 
> ...


 I'm not arguing, just bringing up a simple point of training. 
Training and learning is a necessary part of your existence. 
I'm not in fear of applying it to handgun ownership for first time owners .

When comparing driving lessons , etc ,training verses handgun training not being the same , they are very different. 
I totally agree with that point. 
A handgun is classified as A deadly weapon and shouldn't be compared to other devices that " just a Manual will suffice "


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

pic said:


> I'm not arguing, just bringing up a simple point of training.
> Training and learning is a necessary part of your existence.
> I'm not in fear of applying it to handgun ownership for first time owners .
> 
> ...


Given, not having mandatory training doesn't seem to be causing a problem what's your rationale for requiring training?

What problem (that doesn't actually exist) are you trying to solve? Or are you just adding regulation for the sake of adding regulation?


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> Given, not having mandatory training doesn't seem to be causing a problem what's your rationale for requiring training?
> 
> What problem (that doesn't actually exist) are you trying to solve? Or are you just adding regulation for the sake of adding regulation?


Good question, 
If we engaged as pro gun activists, instead of the left demanding a mandate it would give us credibility that we care about gun safety/responsibility.
We don't have to mandate this as a requirement, we can advertise this in a way to give pro gun owners credibility of responsible ownership.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

We may have a blue wave one day, allowing the Dems to totally knock out gun ownership. 
We need of course in my opinion a positive campaign ahead of time showing we are the responsible gun owners


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

pic said:


> Good question,
> If we engaged as pro gun activists,


I'm beginning to suspect that you are NOT a pro gun activist.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> Good question,
> If we engaged as pro gun activists, instead of the left demanding a mandate it would give us credibility that we care about gun safety/responsibility.
> We don't have to mandate this as a requirement, we can advertise this in a way to give pro gun owners credibility of responsible ownership.


It doesn't matter what we do or say as pro gun activists. The Left is out to destroy us along with the principles that this great nation was founded on. It's not just about guns, it's our entire political philosophy that they're going after. They're an anathema to everything that this country stands for.

The Left believes that the Constitution is a living breathing document that was written by a bunch of old men and hasn't kept up with the times. That it's an old outdated document that has no relevance in today's society. I'm tired of playing nice with them. If we are to save our Constitutional Republic, we've gotta' do everything in our power to stand up and defeat them.

I'm against the entire Democrat Party's platform and every f'n thing that they supposedly stand for. They don't give a rat's ass about us or what we have to say. All they care about is absolute power and control over our everyday lives with promises of cradle to grave entitlements. This is how slaves are made. They've already enslaved and condemned millions of people to a life of poverty and despair and that's just where they want to keep them as they are easier to control and will never bite the hand that feeds them.

Do you seriously believe that the Left wing news media who has the same agenda as the Democrat Party gives a shit about our opinions? To them we're nothing but a disgruntled group of poorly educated trailer park trash. Deplorables and bitter clingers if you will. I can't count how many times we've been referred to as just that?

*The Left does not want us to own guns, PERIOD!!!* Even if there were no crimes and accidents involving guns ever. Civilian gun ownership represents freedom from oppression. In order for a socialist aristocracy to survive and thrive the private ownership of firearms must be eliminated as it's the last bulwark against tyranny.

Does any of this sound familiar? It should as it's everything that the Democrat Party stands for:

1 Healthcare-control healthcare and you control the people

2 Poverty-increase the poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.

3 Debt-increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.

4 Gun control-Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.

5 Welfare-Take control of every aspect of their lives (food, housing, income).

6 Education-Take control of what people read and listen to-take control of what children learn in school.

7 Religion-Remove the belief in God from the Government and schools.

8 Class warfare-Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

9 Open borders

10 Universal basic income

11 Eliminate the electoral college for a popular vote

12 Globalism--Giving the UN control over both our foreign and domestic policies.

13 Reparations for slavery

14 Free college tuition--Colleges and Universities will become part of our public education system.

15 Relief of student debt

16 Health care for all--Including for all of the illegal invaders.

17 Eliminate voter ID laws

18 Abolish the Bill of Rights--By declaring the Constitution as a "living breathing document" subject to the whims of activist judges.

19 Establish multiculturalism--We will no longer be a sovereign nation.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> We may have a blue wave one day, allowing the Dems to totally knock out gun ownership.
> We need of course in my opinion a positive campaign ahead of time showing we are the responsible gun owners


Forget about guns, we've gotta' convince people what life will be like if we lose our Constitutional Republic. Every time I hear that we are a "Democracy" I want to puke.

*Constitutional Republic:*

A Constitutional Republic is a form of government where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, representatives mandated to govern according to existing constitutional law. *It is because of this mandate that the elected class in a Constitutional Republic is limited in their power over the citizenry.* The United States of America was created as and intended to survive as a Constitutional Republic.

Our Constitutional Republic is separated into three separate but equal branches of government; the Executive, Legislative and Judicial, represented by the Presidency, Congress and the Courts. Because of this no branch has a rein on absolute power thus assuring that there will be checks and balances to the governmental system and protection for the rule of law.

Through the elected representation employed by our Constitutional Republic the influence of the majority is tempered by protections for individual rights as mandated by constitutional law. *Our form of government is deliberate in its attempt to thwart majoritarianism, thereby protecting political dissent and individuals and minority groups from the "tyranny of the majority" by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population.* The power of the majority of the people is checked by limiting that power to electing representatives who are required to legislate with limits of overarching constitutional law which a simple majority cannot modify.

*"A pure unbridled democracy is a political system in which the majority enjoys absolute power by means of democratic elections. In an unvarnished democracy, unrestrained by a constitution, the majority can vote to impose tyranny on themselves and the minority opposition. They can vote to elect those who will infringe upon our inalienable God-given rights. *Thomas Jefferson referred to this as elected despotism in Notes on the State of Virginia (also cited in Federalist 48 by Madison):"


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> I'm beginning to suspect that you are NOT a pro gun activist.


I'm pro gun, 
absolutely correct,, I'm not an activist. 
I'm a law abiding gun owner. 
My Vote is as active as it gets. I Don't actively campaign


----------



## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

anyone who does not vote against the Democratic Party this time deserves what they get. Unfortunately you will also be voting against maintaining our Constitutional Republic, as the Dems have designs on complete control of the three branches of Government by any means necessary. If they win the WH and take the Senate, Biden will pack the SCOTUS and anything they want to do will happen.

Unless you are completely ignorant to what they are planning, you must vote Republican regardless of who the candidates are. Wake up...they just spent the last 4 years trying to remove Trump. What do you think will happen if they are in complete control? You won’t have any guns any longer, and that’s only the start.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> Forget about guns, we've gotta' convince people what life will be like if we lose our Constitutional Republic. Every time I hear that we are a "Democracy" I want to puke.
> 
> *Constitutional Republic:*
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying, but does the public understand. 
You're getting to deep for the simple minded public to understand. 
Look how many people are gonna vote for Joe Biden,


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

If the left eliminates guns , what happens next?


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Des, 
Welcome to NYC, if the left wins, not right away though. Maybe right away,


----------



## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

pic said:


> Des,
> Welcome to NYC, if the left wins, not right away though. Maybe right away,


Yup, you have no guns but murders and shootings go up all the time. Wonder why, when they have the toughest gun laws in the country? Oh, well maybe gun laws don't work? Nah, the Dems always say we need more of them.
...once again, the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time...


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

It all depends where I am at. Around where I live it doesn't matter every one knows if I am dressed I carry. When I have no choice but to go to a city I carry concealed to keep people from wetting their panties,


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> If you're going to argue the point at least try to come up with a cogent argument.
> 
> According to the CDC fire ARMS-related deaths and accidents are at an all time low. There are currently 16 states that don't require any form of permit to carry a gun at all. They don't have a higher rate of accidents or deaths related to guns.
> 
> ...


I looked at the CDC site, I'm reading a different story.

*How has the number of U.S. gun deaths changed over time?*
The 39,773 total gun deaths in 2017 were the most since at least 1968, the earliest year for which the CDC has online data. This was slightly more than the 39,595 gun deaths recorded in the prior peak year of 1993. Both gun murders and gun suicides have gone up in recent years: The number of gun murders rose 32% between 2014 and 2017, while the number of gun suicides rose each year between 2006 and 2017 (a 41% increase overall).


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

You take 10 people and have them read the same study / report, and chances are, you're gonna end up with at least 6-7 varying versions.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

This is the positive action we need to support our agenda.
https://komonews.com/news/nation-wo...to-pe-curriculum-in-two-iowa-school-districts
Many other schools are following course, it's positive enforcement of our gun culture


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> This is the positive action we need to support our agenda.
> https://komonews.com/news/nation-wo...to-pe-curriculum-in-two-iowa-school-districts
> Many other schools are following course, it's positive enforcement of our gun culture


That makes way too much sense and is a great idea.

It'll never fly.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> That makes way too much sense and is a great idea.
> 
> It'll never fly.


Years ago in schools they taught gun safety, 
I'm hoping it catches and grows once again, it is part of our culture .
Hoblophobic. Attitude needs to be addressed at a younger age


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> Years ago in schools they taught gun safety,
> I'm hoping it catches and grows once again, it is part of our culture .
> Hoblophobic. Attitude needs to be addressed at a younger age


Yes, I recall a class or two on firearms safety while in elementary school.

Our high school had an underground shooting range.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Yes, I recall a class or two on firearms safety while in elementary school.
> 
> Our high school had an underground shooting range.


You probably remember these signs

https://images.app.goo.gl/cD9mbtjWqU78P7rk7


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> I understand what you're saying, *but does the public understand.*
> You're getting to deep for the simple minded public to understand.
> Look how many people are gonna vote for Joe Biden,


We're at a tipping point where half the public understands and the other half doesn't. A lot of them believe that if they hear it from the media then it must be true. To make matters worse 90% of the media are extremely Left wing and it's their main source of information. I think that it was Goebbels who once stated that if you repeat a lie often enough it then becomes the truth, or something to that affect?

Unfortunately a lot of them too have become indoctrinated in our public school system and colleges and universities which only exacerbates the problem. They're being taught that the United States is inherently evil and the cause of half the world's problems. They're even tearing down statues of the people who made this country what it is, including memorials for those that fought and died for our freedoms. They did indeed vandalize the World War Two Memorial in DC. If that's not enough to make you sick I don't know what does?

Our lax immigration system and multiculturalism are also leading to our demise. As these foreigners have no understanding of American history or the principles of which this country was founded. A lot of them believe that we are just like the countries that they've left. It's not that they're inherently stupid it's just that they don't know any better. Which all plays into the Democrat Party's hands as these people are a lot easier to manipulate. That too is all part of the Democrat's plan.

Biden is a f'n criminal and one of if not thee most corrupt politicians that ever was. How anyone could vote for that m'r f'r or any Democrat is beyond me? Biden's crimes are all coming to light just two weeks before the election. Along with the Clinton's, Obama, Clapper, Comey, Brennan etc. They've all conspired to orchestrate a coup d'état against a duly elected president based on fabricated lies and innuendo. Every f'n one of them should be in prison. If Biden gets elected it will all be swept under the rug and they'll all walk away scott free. There's a two tiered system of justice. If you're a Democrat politician you can get away with anything. Doesn't that make you happy?


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> You probably remember these signs
> 
> https://images.app.goo.gl/cD9mbtjWqU78P7rk7


I do! I actually had one in my bedroom when I was in junior high school.


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

pic said:


> I looked at the CDC site, I'm reading a different story.
> 
> *How has the number of U.S. gun deaths changed over time?*
> The 39,773 TOTAL gun deaths in 2017 were the most since at least 1968, the earliest year for which the CDC has online data.


TOTAL =/= accidental


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> We're at a tipping point where half the public understands and the other half doesn't. A lot of them believe that if they hear it from the media then it must be true. To make matters worse 90% of the media are extremely Left wing and it's their main source of information. I think that it was Goebbels who once stated that if you repeat a lie often enough it then becomes the truth, or something to that affect?
> 
> Unfortunately a lot of them too have become indoctrinated in our public school system and colleges and universities which only exacerbates the problem. They're being taught that the United States is inherently evil and the cause of half the world's problems. They're even tearing down statues of the people who made this country what it is, including memorials for those that fought and died for our freedoms. They did indeed vandalize the World War Two Memorial in DC. If that's not enough to make you sick I don't know what does?
> 
> ...


The mueller report,the impeachment hearings and especially the FBI, CIA, and whatever other government intelligence operatives that were involved. 
Oh yeah, if that doesn't make anybody mad as hell they aren't looking or seeing through the correct window, a window full of corruption.

Then The Covid pandemic, my opinion is the covid was released to take down the economy and bring about what we are currently witnessing .
The deep state which is made up of the economic world globalists. 
The CDC , I don't trust anymore either. 
The economy shut down to quickly as if things were pre planned, the timing of the Covid Virus is extraordinary. 
The Covid blame game was already in place. 
I forgot to mention the medias most corrupt role since before day one.

After all this concerted effort to oust President Trump, we are SUPPOSED TO ACCEPT ELECTION MAIL IN PAPER BALLOTS CONTROLLED BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CORRUPT SINCE DAY ONE. 
The fix is in,
Democrats allowed looting , take overs, and destruction of monuments. 
ANTIFA, BLM. 
That's why the appointment of Amy to the Supreme Court Is a very necessary action. 
It's not about the affordable care act, which is mainly only a welfare Medicaid program that the average worker can't afford, I've tried. 
It's not about Roe Vs Wade.

The Dems don't want AMY Appoited because the election results have a good chance of being determined by the Supreme Court.
The Trump Administration already has already mounting the corruption already happening with these paper ballots, the case is being established for just cause. 
People can go the Grocery Stores, They can go to the Voting Polls. 
Ballot harvesting, which has been the Dems go to scheme, should not be allowed.
Voting in America should have the highest degree of a secure ballot process to ensure the integrity of the election, it's a sacred process that needs to be protected


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> TOTAL =/= accidental


I would like to see the link, You didn't supply a link. 
I don't trust the CDC.
Plus I don't believe much about accidents when it comes to Gun Safety , Gun Handling. 
I believe the majority of Gun accidents are negligent handling of the firearm. 
Improper handling of a firearm.

I understand your opinion of a few basic rules should be read out of an owners manual and then you're "GOOD TO GO "

I believe there should be some kind of Human interaction for a first time gun owner.

Keeping your finger off the trigger advice is good, but there's much more to gun safety , then what the Manual can provide.

Would you go out hunting into the thickets or the woods with someone who just bought a shotgun for the first time in their life?

Now if you would please answer or address that question like you've asked me to address the CDC statistics. Then I can understand your attack on proper gun training
Thanks


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

I'm done troll


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> I'm done troll


Don't walk away mad. 
Here's a big kiss for you. 
https://images.app.goo.gl/DoEhw4e25J7SNntp7


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

A firearm owner's manual may address all the pertinent information when it comes to using and maintaining it.

But, I've yet to see one that tells you when you can or can't shoot another person, and under what circumstances, and what to expect after the fact, in regards to legal issues. 

This is where education and training comes into play.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Pic ain't no troll. The vast majority of us know that.


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

paratrooper said:


> A firearm owner's manual may address all the pertinent information when it comes to using and maintaining it.
> 
> But, I've yet to see one that tells you when you can or can't shoot another person, and under what circumstances, and what to expect after the fact, in regards to legal issues.
> 
> This is where education and training comes into play.


First, I'm not against training. I never said I was.

What I AM against is a state mandated training requirement for firearms ownership.

Once you let the state start mandating training it won't be long before the training requirement is beyond the average person


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

paratrooper said:


> Pic ain't no troll. The vast majority of us know that.


First there aren't enough people here to BE a vast majority.

Second if someone continually refuses to address what was actually said and keeps moving goal posts that person gets labeled a troll


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I try not to post in threads that are more than 40 posts deep. It's kind of like entering a saloon just before it closes, there aint nothing good going on in there. YMMV

GW


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Cypher said:


> First, I'm not against training. I never said I was.
> 
> What I AM against is a state mandated training requirement for firearms ownership.
> 
> Once you let the state start mandating training it won't be long before the training requirement is beyond the average person


I can see your point! Training is a good thing. Problem is, most will pass on it if given a chance. Especially if it costs them some money and time.

When I went to college, I was forced to take many classes that I knew would have no bearing what-so-ever on what I wanted to accomplish. They cost me time & money.

Although the state had little to no say on what classes I had to take, the college did, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit, if the state did indeed, have a say in the matter as to what it took to obtain a degree.

If you run a business in any particular state, the state does have a say in how it's run. You either meet their criteria, or you go elsewhere.

I see carrying a firearm on my person as an awesome responsibility. Not everyone sees it as I do. I go above & beyond in regards to the education and training. Others strap on a gun and don't give it a second thought.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Cypher said:


> First there aren't enough people here to BE a vast majority.
> 
> Second if someone continually refuses to address what was actually said and keeps moving goal posts that person gets labeled a troll


If you have 10 people in a room, and 8 or 9 of those agree on any given topic, you have a vast majority.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Goldwing said:


> I try not to post in threads that are more than 40 posts deep. It's kind of like entering a saloon just before it closes, there aint nothing good going on in there. YMMV
> 
> GW


I don't patronize saloons or bars, so I wouldn't know.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Goldwing said:


> I try not to post in threads that are more than 40 posts deep. It's kind of like entering a saloon just before it closes, there aint nothing good going on in there. YMMV
> 
> GW


 Back in the day . Entering a nightclub towards last call ,,,where the women danced n partied paid off . 
The women were already boozed up, n ready to be picked up. Lol


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> I can see your point! Training is a good thing. Problem is, most will pass on it if given a chance. Especially if it costs them some money and time.
> 
> When I went to college, I was forced to take many classes that I knew would have no bearing what-so-ever on what I wanted to accomplish. They cost me time & money.
> 
> ...


Great thinking outside the box. And to the point, Good info


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I try not to make it a habit of thinking. But, when I do, I try to stay outside of the box.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Cypher said:


> First there aren't enough people here to BE a vast majority.
> 
> Second if someone continually refuses to address what was actually said and keeps moving goal posts that person gets labeled a troll


I'm sorry if I left a sour taste , I apologize, it was not my intention. 
I'll take full responsibility .


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Having a discussion on an internet forum, and trying to make and keep your point clear, isn't always possible.

There's a lot of goal post moving that occurs inadvertently. That's a fact of life, and it ain't gonna change anytime soon. 

Even if you do feel that you've made your point clear and concise, there will always be those who refuse to see it that way.


----------



## Injunbro (May 9, 2020)

When in a restaurant I like to have my back to a wall & never show off a gun that's tactically stupid. I often OC but seldom in town (of course I seldom go to town). One time my wife wanted something @ the store (several "towns" here consist of a little store & a few houses) so I went. My revolver was in my holster since I'd been doing ranch work & occasionally need it for snake & coyote taming, etc.. When I went in the store there were several drunken migrant workers talking loud in Spanish & acting stupid. Suddenly the sight of an armed 220 lb. halfbreed made them all realize they had pressing appointments elsewhere. When I paid for whatever I bought the clerk asked if I could come in every day about the same time? The local deputy tried to but was often busy elsewhere. No, but soon after she started OC behind the counter & things got civilized. OC has it's points. For the record I don't know anyone who lives here that isn't armed & crime is very rare.


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

We see quite a bit of OC around here. Not many get upset by it. I see the ones that behave in such a way, that they come off as responsible. It's their behavior, mannerisms, and body language. 

And, there are those that don't come off as so responsible. It's their behavior, mannerisms, and body language as well. 

That "blade" cuts both ways. I do not condone a cowboy type holster with no security features. And yet, you still see plenty of them around here. 

Not that long ago, I saw an individual with one. He was tall and very slim. I swear his cowboy holster was half-way down the side of his right leg, it was hanging so low. 

Funny thing, his belt also had round holders on it, and every one was filled. He must have had close to 40 or more rounds. Can't forget to mention tassels. His holster had leather tassels on it, with silver and turquoise emblems.

Not so up on my cowboy six-shooters. No clue as to the make or model of gun. The cartridges looked to be .357 mag.


----------



## Injunbro (May 9, 2020)

I find a gun in a chest holster is just as accessible as a belt holster, don't pull my britches down, doesn't bash my kidney sitting in bucket seats & is harder to anyone else to grab. A shirt covers it.


----------



## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

Goldwing said:


> I try not to post in threads that are more than 40 posts deep. It's kind of like entering a saloon just before it closes, there aint nothing good going on in there. YMMV
> 
> GW


There are not enough likes in the World


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Cypher said:


> There are not enough likes in the World


Just remember, this is just an internet forum, and at the end of the day, when the smoke has cleared and the dust has settled, it pretty much means nothing at all.


----------



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> I can see your point! Training is a good thing. Problem is, most will pass on it if given a chance. Especially if it costs them some money and time.
> 
> When I went to college, I was forced to take many classes that I knew would have no bearing what-so-ever on what I wanted to accomplish. They cost me time & money.
> 
> ...


Did you have the pleasure of attending. Gotta think way back when, lol.
Psychology 
Sociology 
Criminology 
Criminal Justice
Constitutional Law
Penal Law


----------



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Law Enforcement, General Education (Liberal Arts) and Criminal Psychology.


----------

