# Almost pulled trigger on buglar at home



## hargroder (Dec 21, 2006)

Not sure where to post this but on Sunday August 31, 2008 after securing everything for preparation of hurricane Gustov I went to close my garage door and noticed a black man walking out of my garage. I went out and told him to stop and he started running to a maroon older model Cadillac. I am a ccw and immediately pulled out my handgun and for a split second was going to shoot out the tires or the back window. I then realized my life was not in danger and put the gun back in my pocket. Upon entering my garage, I noticed that my boys Yamaha dirt bike and helmet was missing. By the time I got my keys for my truck The burglars were out of the neighborhood and could not be found. The responsibilities and liability of being a ccw suddenly hit me, if I would have shot at the vehicle I would probably be in jail now and would have to pay damages to their vehicle. I called the police and they made a report but could not find the vehicle in my small town. I only lost a dirt bike but could have lost a lot more if I used deadly force. The officer said I was lucky I didn't shoot because it is only justified if my life or someone else's life was in danger. I totally agree. So to everyone reading this please use a cool head in situations like these. I learned my lesson.


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## rvl8 (Jun 4, 2008)

you did the best you could. sorry about the loss of your son's bike. you probably prevented the loss of alot more though. maybe you can claim it under your homeowners insurance?


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## hargroder (Dec 21, 2006)

RVL8, The price of homeowners insurance in Louisiana is very high so I have a $2500 deductible to keep the price down. The value of the dirtbike is $1000 so being reimbursed by the insurance company is not an option.


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

Wise decision Hargroder. A painful one but wise none the less. Good lesson for other CCW's on the site. Sorry for your boy's loss though.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

hargroder said:


> I went out and told him to stop and he started running to a maroon older model Cadillac. I am a ccw and immediately pulled out my handgun and for a split second was going to shoot out the tires or the back window.


I'll play Monday morning quarterback. This is a very cheap lesson. Why'd you pull the gun at all, let alone "almost pulled the trigger?" Because an _unarmed_ guy was _running away_ from you? As they say, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Did he have the *ability* to harm you? Nope, not with no weapons in hand and running in the opposite direction.

Did he have the *opportunity* to harm you? Nope, see above.

Were you in *jeopardy*? Nope, see above.

Without the above factors, you're not justified in shooting. The gun should have remained holstered, and you should have tried to get the vehicle's tag number. We have to think these things through _before_ they happen, and not try to come up with something on the spot, under stress. This is part of that "mindset" thing instructors like to harp on.

_You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to the level of your training._ - Barrett Tillman


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

> I am a ccw and immediately pulled out my handgun and for a split second was going to shoot out the tires or the back window.




Good thing you didn't for several reasons, one being the possibility that the BG could have had a gun as well. It would have sucked bigtime if you would have pissed off the BG and he pulled out an AK47 and decided to shoot back.


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## hargroder (Dec 21, 2006)

I know I was wrong because of the reasons listed above.I do not need to give ccw's a bad rep. I would do it different if I had to do it again. the license plate on the car was full of soot or mud and I couldn't read it. As I stated above the responsibilities of carrying a gun are great. I never should have pulled out my gun. I really feel like I let down my ccw instructer and all who have a ccw. It is a lesson learned for me. I just hope this doesn't happen to someone else and hopefully others will learn from my mistake.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

hargroder said:


> I know I was wrong because of the reasons listed above.I do not need to give ccw's a bad rep. I would do it different if I had to do it again. the license plate on the car was full of soot or mud and I couldn't read it. As I stated above the responsibilities of carrying a gun are great. I never should have pulled out my gun. I really feel like I let down my ccw instructer and all who have a ccw. It is a lesson learned for me. I just hope this doesn't happen to someone else and hopefully others will learn from my mistake.


Frankly, I appreciate your honesty. In this instance you have shared with us a story where you made a mistake and correctly identify the reasons why it was wrong. The only way your tale could be better would be if you confirmed your finger was out of the triggerguard the whole time.

Much better than the stupid "its an AD, not an ND" mea culpas we often see.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with *submoa*. Good lesson, and high marks for honesty. Please take my criticism in the spirit intended - that of learning.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

Glad you realized you were in the wrong before you got into a lot of trouble...


hargroder said:


> RVL8, The price of homeowners insurance in Louisiana is very high so I have a $2500 deductible to keep the price down. The value of the dirtbike is $1000 so being reimbursed by the insurance company is not an option.


A dirtbike is considered a vehicle anyway, so Homeowners wouldn't cover it even if your deductible was lower. One of my friends at work found that out when his son's dirtbike was stolen a couple months ago.


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## hargroder (Dec 21, 2006)

My finger was never on the trigger, just outside of the trigger guard. I always preach to my kids that you never put your finger on the trigger until you find your target and look to see what is behind it and are ready to shoot. This still does not make my actions responsible. The more I think about my actions, the more guilty I feel. What if I would have pulled the trigger and killed someone in the car? I carry a Ruger LCP and with the very long trigger pull maybe if I was pulling the trigger I could have stopped the gun from shooting. Makes me wonder if I should be carrying at all. I will definitely practice more and try to take a class or two with a good instructer.


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## hargroder (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks for all the comments. If anyone criticizes me it is because I deserve it, and will take this as a learning experience.


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## jeb21 (Jun 10, 2008)

You did well under a very difficult set of circumstances. I hope that you weathered the storm well also.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

> The more I think about my actions, the more guilty I feel.





> Makes me wonder if I should be carrying at all.


Don't spend too much time worrying about these thoughts. The point is to learn from your mistake and move on but not to cloud your mind so much that you might be hesitant to pull the trigger when it's really necessary.


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## RUT (Aug 28, 2008)

>>Why'd you pull the gun at all, let alone "almost pulled the trigger?" Because an unarmed guy was running away from you?<<

How do you know he wasn't running to his car to get HIS gun? I'd have had my gun out too.... just in case.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

RUT said:


> How do you know he wasn't running to his car to get HIS gun? I'd have had my gun out too.... just in case.


I'd just close the garage door. I'm not looking to fight.


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## Slick (Feb 16, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> I'd just close the garage door. I'm not looking to fight.


If you saw somebody run out of your garage you'd run inside and close the garage door? I think you're actions would be the exception and not the norm. Not saying which is right or wrong. Heck, your actions might be the smart decision. But I think most people would probably chase them just as a natural reaction. I know my first reaction would be to chase after them. I may instantly regret my decision though, lol.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

*Sheepdog alert.* :mrgreen:


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> I'd just close the garage door.


Excellent course of action.


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## Slick (Feb 16, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> *Sheepdog alert.* :mrgreen:


Not at all what I was saying. I just think that for most people it is a natural reaction to confront somebody in the posted situation. More of a reaction instead of thinking.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Slick said:


> Not at all what I was saying. I just think that for most people it is a natural reaction to confront somebody in the posted situation. More of a reaction instead of thinking.


Well, once again, we need to train. See Barrett Tillman quote above. Blindly pursuing a fleeing person, gun in hand, is not a good reaction in most circumstances.


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## Slick (Feb 16, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Well, once again, we need to train. See Barrett Tillman quote above. Blindly pursuing a fleeing person, gun in hand, is not a good reaction in most circumstances.


I'm not even saying w/ a gun in hand. Just somebody in your home that you dont know, it is natural ( I think ) to confront them. Trust me, I know I'm no tough guy. I dont even play one on TV.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Slick said:


> I'm not even saying w/ a gun in hand. Just somebody in your home that you dont know, it is natural ( I think ) to confront them. Trust me, I know I'm no tough guy. I dont even play one on TV.


That's not at all the scenario described above, though. This was a guy fleeing and with no visible weapons, not someone inside the house. The OP took his gun out. *RUT* said he'd take his gun out. You said you'd chase the guy.

To hell with all that. I'd just close the garage, pull my cell phone out of my pocket, call the cops, and try to give them a good description of the car and its occupants. There's nothing a guy could carry out of my garage worth $50,000 in attorney's fees.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> pull my cell phone out of my pocket,


+1 on the cellphone...
I'd add use the camera on the cellphone.


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## dannyb (Jun 17, 2008)

I am neither LEO nor trainer, but I think I'd still point out a couple of things. We know by hindsight that the intruder was the only one person; if there had been a look out who had not come into view yet, perhaps one who might have been armed, the presence in hand of the OP's firearm was not necessarily a bad thing. The fact that he had his finger outside the trigger guard and had declined to fire when not confronted seems to show good scenario discipline even if he's second guessing now. Of course if there is no way that a second intruder could have been involved, then my speculation is clearly wrong.

I am no expert, I'm just mulling this scene as presented by the OP. If I'm wrong please please please correct me.


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

dannyb said:


> I am neither LEO nor trainer, but I think I'd still point out a couple of things. We know by hindsight that the intruder was the only one person; if there had been a look out who had not come into view yet, perhaps one who might have been armed, the presence in hand of the OP's firearm was not necessarily a bad thing. The fact that he had his finger outside the trigger guard and had declined to fire when not confronted seems to show good scenario discipline even if he's second guessing now. Of course if there is no way that a second intruder could have been involved, then my speculation is clearly wrong.
> 
> I am no expert, I'm just mulling this scene as presented by the OP. If I'm wrong please please please correct me.


The main problem I see with this scenario (a 2nd unseen armed BG) is that if you present to the first guy you will get shot. Not a good result considering the first guy was retreating.


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> pull my cell phone out of my pocket, call the cops,


+1 on the cell phone



Mike Barham said:


> There's nothing a guy could carry out of my garage worth $50,000 in attorney's fees.


You just made a defense attorney very unhappy.:smt082


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## jeb21 (Jun 10, 2008)

It is very easy for those of us who were not involved in moment to play Monday morning quarterback. Are there things he could have done differently - yes- but he did not get hurt, the fleeing felon did not get shot, a small amount of property was lost, but that was it, no police, no jail, no need for lawyers. I believe he did great. Especially, given all of the emotions that were running through his head at the time.

I am sure that he will learn from what happen and will benefit from this experience. 

BTW I am a lawyer, I teach the legal use of deadly force, and if I had a stranger in my garage, my gun would be in my hand. I would not simply close my garage door because once I have identified the threat, I would want to know what the threat was going to do. Is he leaving the property? Is he simply going around back? is he running to the car to get a weapon or back up? Where is my family? ect . . . Closing the garage door until you know that information is simply putting your head in the sand and hoping that everything works out.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

jeb21 said:


> no police


According to the OP, there were police involved.



> Where is my family?


Exactly, closing the garage door is a means to secure the premises especially if there is access into the house from the garage.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

jeb21 said:


> It is very easy for those of us who were not involved in moment to play Monday morning quarterback. Are there things he could have done differently - yes- but he did not get hurt, the fleeing felon did not get shot, a small amount of property was lost, but that was it, no police, no jail, no need for lawyers. I believe he did great. Especially, given all of the emotions that were running through his head at the time.


We need to keep our emotions as controlled as possible in a potential fight. Unchecked emotions can lead to an inadvertant escalation that is best avoided.

I do agree that all's well that ends well.



> I am sure that he will learn from what happen and will benefit from this experience.


And so can we, which is why he posted it and why we are discussing it.



> BTW I am a lawyer, I teach the legal use of deadly force, and if I had a stranger in my garage, my gun would be in my hand.


Once again, the guy was not in his garage. The guy was fleeing/retreating to a vehicle, with no visible weapons. Why would you pull a gun on a guy who is moving away from you, leaving your property, has no weapons you can see, and isn't even carrying anything he may have stolen from your garage? Maybe he's a Jehovah's Witness who wants to give you a copy of _Watchtower_, maybe he's a salesman, maybe he's a "community organizer," maybe he's at the wrong house, whatever. Do you whip out your pistol every time you see a stranger in your driveway?



> I would not simply close my garage door because once I have identified the threat, I would want to know what the threat was going to do.


I can observe him much more safely from a window in my house. Then he can't turn around and a hit/stab me. A wall or door is way more effective than a gun at stopping impact/edged weapons. This also gives me distance/time to call the police, who can come identify "the threat."

Let's hypothetically say he IS a threat and I am gawking at him with the garage door open. He turns and shoots me, since his action beats my reaction (or if you like cool-guy jargon, he "got inside my OODA loop"). I am rendered _hors de combat_ and go down. He and his buddies now have unimpeded access to my open home, and my family inside, without having to do so much as defeat a locked door. How am I winning now?



> Is he leaving the property? Is he simply going around back? is he running to the car to get a weapon or back up? Where is my family? ect . . . Closing the garage door until you know that information is simply putting your head in the sand and hoping that everything works out.


So you're just going to stand out in the open, gawking at the guy with your pistol hanging out? To what end? Are you going to shoot him if he goes around back? Can you shoot an unarmed man for trespassing?

Wouldn't it be better to be inside the house, making sure all the doors are locked, verifying the safety of the family, and maybe fetching a shotgun/carbine - in case he actually does transform into a threat?


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## RUT (Aug 28, 2008)

>>So you're just going to stand out in the open, gawking at the guy with your pistol hanging out?<<

You're damned right I would, and I bet he'd never come back either!


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

RUT said:


> >>So you're just going to stand out in the open, gawking at the guy with your pistol hanging out?<<
> 
> You're damned right I would, and I bet he'd never come back either!


Guys who think they're tough get shot all the time. They also often end up in jail.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Wouldn't it be better to be inside the house, making sure all the doors are locked, verifying the safety of the family, and maybe fetching a shotgun/carbine - in case he actually does transform into a threat?


Yes! I'm not a doctor or lawyer but this makes a lot of sense.


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## jeb21 (Jun 10, 2008)

Stating that we need to keep emotions in check is a valid point but we must still recognize that there will be emotions fear, anger, confusion and so on. We do have to work through them to think clearly, but those emotions will still have to be dealt with. Our original poster dealt with these emotions, and ultimately made the right decision, not to shoot.

An uninvited stanger on my property is a potential threat. I am allowed legally to respond to that threat, hence the weapon in my hand. This weapon in my hand gives me a chance in case things turn violent. As you said "action beats reaction". Say for instance if he turns towards me, and draws a weapon. I don't want to get into a quick draw competition with anyone, especially with my slow reflexes. Gun out finger on the outside of the trigger guard, weapon in a ready position, but not pointing at the intruder sounds about right to me.

As for the gawking in the open, give me a break and a slight bit of credit. It is possible to keep the garage open, and observe the stranger, while not exposing yourself to potential fire. Hell, we practice this type of drill every month at IDPA. Cover, concealment, and line of sight. 

The bottom line is that I do not want to lose sight of this intruder until he leaves my property. If nothing else maybe get a good description of him for the police, and again to make sure that he does leave my property. If he has a vehicle, maybe get a description of the vehicle and the license plate.

As for all of the possible innocent explanations for this intrusion, lets look again at the original post:

"Not sure where to post this but on Sunday August 31, 2008 after securing everything for preparation of hurricane Gustov I went to close my garage door and noticed a black man walking out of my garage."

The salesman -ect does not fly under those circumstances. The man was in the garage. Solicitors do not do that With a hurricane on the way there really is not reason for any stranger to be on my property.

Of course you do not pull your pistol on every stranger on your property, but in these circumstances as described you have a right to be suspicious/ threatened. 

Please understand that in my opinion the best confrontation is one that does not ever escalate to violence. The original poster handle the situation well.


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