# I'm sure that by now.........



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

......you've all heard about this shooting. This is one of the more interesting police officer shootings that has come up in a while. A tragedy for sure, but the full details have yet to be made public.

Before they are, I was curious as to what you all think.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/tex...aughter-charge-neighbors-death-051802624.html


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

From the article to which we've been linked: "...'If it was a white man, would it have been different? Would she have reacted differently?' Allison Jean said Friday."
I suggest that, if the report we have been given to read is true, the answer to that question is "No."

Let's begin by assuming that, like most of us, the officer kept her apartment locked during her absence.
The officer was for some unknown reason disoriented. She entered an _unlocked_ apartment that was not her own. That was stupidity #1.
Then, assuming that the _unlocked_ apartment was hers, she shot a suspected burglar _even though he was not threatening her_. That was stupidity #2.

The laws of most states do not permit the killing of someone who is not directly threatening you. Police, or not police: It's the same.
Mere burglary is not a reason for shooting. Certainly, it is not a reason for shooting to kill. Most states do not permit you to kill in defense of mere property. There has to be a direct threat to life or well-being.

Therefore, the officer is most likely guilty of murder in one degree or another.
Convicted or not, she deserves to be fired from her job as a cop.
And then there will be the civil suit for both unjustified homicide and the violation of the victim's civil rights.

She is appropriately in a whole lot of trouble.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

15 hour shift (?). Parked on 4th floor instead of 3rd. First action to draw and fire. Based only on that story, should be tried for manslaughter, with adequate representation, before a jury of her peers.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Some thing is missing from the story we are being able to read.


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## crewchief (Jul 25, 2018)

Our Lady cops are dealing with a severe case of pucker factor when dealing with blacks that they presume are guilty before even thinking it out. That's what happened here you can bet on it. She made bad choices, the last was killing an unarmed man!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Heard on the news tonight, that the officer was on the wrong floor, and when she inserted her key fob in the door, she came to realize that it was open a crack. 

She then proceeded in to a totally dark apartment. She then was confronted by the suspect. She fired I think twice at that time. According to her statement, it wasn't until she turned the lights on, that she became aware that it was not her apartment. 

The timeline she gave to police and the timeline that the victim's family has, do not match up. The family says they have proof of theirs.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

paratrooper said:


> She then proceeded in to a totally dark apartment. She then was confronted by the suspect. She fired I think twice at that time. According to her statement, it wasn't until she turned the lights on, that she became aware that it was not her apartment.
> 
> The timeline she gave to police and the timeline that the victim's family has, do not match up. The family says they have proof of theirs.


Hard to believe the family has a timeline since it appears they were not in the apartment...... Anyway, only the dead man, her and God(for those that believe) know the truth......


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> From the article to which we've been linked: "...'If it was a white man, would it have been different? Would she have reacted differently?' Allison Jean said Friday."
> I suggest that, if the report we have been given to read is true, the answer to that question is "No."
> 
> Let's begin by assuming that, like most of us, the officer kept her apartment locked during her absence.
> ...


*"*_*Mere burglary is not a reason for shooting. Certainly, it is not a reason for shooting to kill. Most states do not permit you to kill in defense of mere property. There has to be a direct threat to life or well-being.*_*"*

This happened in Dallas Texas. It is lawful to shoot a burglar inside your home, day or night, in Texas.
At nighttime it is lawful to shoot a burglar outside of your home to retrieve stolen property. (You are to assume they're armed).
Not saying it's right, and it is NOT what I would do, but it is the law in Texas.

Sadly I know people that know this man that got murdered. 
He was a man of God and a missionary with the Church of Christ. I'm told he did not own a gun and was not the type that would be hostile toward anyone, including a white cop.

The news reports have changed. The first report was that the cop pounded on the door demanding he open the door and he did.
I was told the same by those that know him and his family. Also, first reports stated the she cop had worked a 12 hr shift, now we're up to a 15 hr shift.
I heard on the radio today that she said she "shot at a silhouette" in the dark. If true she forgot one of the four basic rules of gun safety. (Know your target)!
At this point we can not count on any "news" reports being accurate. It's simply too early.

My hope is that this was a horrible mistake in that the cop really did believe she had no choice but to shoot and *NOT* that she saw a chance to kill someone she believed to be a bad guy in her place. 
I know he was a good guy, in his own place....

Keep your door locked at all times and call 911 if a cop demands you open it.

Sam


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Something I read in one of the articles stood out: The officer said she "saw a silhouette in the dark room & she fired at it." Any gun owner should know better than to shoot at a shadow or silhouette. She couldn't identify the target.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

win231 said:


> Something I read in one of the articles stood out: The officer said she "saw a silhouette in the dark room & she fired at it." Any gun owner should know better than to shoot at a shadow or silhouette. She couldn't identify the target.


You have a point, however what if a single person enters their home(knowing that no one should be in the house) and its dark..... They see a silhouette in the dark room and waits to identify the target.... They turn on the light and the former silhouette(bad guy) has a weapon and fatally shoots the person.....


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Cait43 said:


> You have a point, however what if a single person enters their home(knowing that no one should be in the house) and its dark..... They see a silhouette in the dark room and waits to identify the target.... They turn on the light and the former silhouette(bad guy) has a weapon and fatally shoots the person.....


I guess it boils down to making sure you're entering your own house.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

One night I was working very late in my race shop. I thought the front door was locked. It was not.
The door quickly swings open and in walks a BIG man. I was working on the computer at the business counter. I immediately drew my pistol but kept it out of his vision.
Turns out the guy was blind drunk and had no idea where he was or what he was doing. I sent him on his way telling him this was not a bar and his wife was not here.
Just because someone invades your castle (or you believe they did) does not mean they need to be dead! That scared little girl should have known better than to shoot at what she could not identify. _If that's what happened. _

Sam


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## aarondhgraham (Mar 17, 2011)

I want to read the results of the toxicology report.

Aarond

.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

aarondhgraham said:


> I want to read the results of the toxicology report.
> 
> Aarond
> 
> .


Since she was a cop, it's unlikely to be made public.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Recent article disputes the cop's version. Neighbors heard her pounding on the door, yelling "Let me in." That suggests to me she was intoxicated.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

She worked a 15 Hour shift? So what? I worked many, many 16 hour shifts as an Armed Escort Officer. You don't go into a Zombie like state after a double shift. There's more to this story, has to be. Wrong floor, wrong apartment, shoot's at a shadow that is not presenting a threat? She's got a lot problems facing her.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, there's a lot of things that ain't adding up. She's only been on the police force for 4 yrs. Still very new and inexperienced.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

It is my understanding that she asked for a blood sample to be taken for testing. If she was intoxicated, or on a sleep medicine like Ambien, would proof of that help her in any way? ? ?




Sam


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SamBond said:


> It is my understanding that she asked for a blood sample to be taken for testing. If she was intoxicated, or on a sleep medicine like Ambien, would proof of that help her in any way? ? ?
> 
> Sam


Whether or not she asked for a blood test, all appropriate testing will be automatic and mandatory.

If by some chance she was intoxicated or on a sleep aid like Ambien, that was a HUGE mistake. But, I just don't see that as being a possibility. There's more to the story, and it will be exposed soon enough.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

A SEARCH WARRANT? ... Looking to trash the MURDER VICTIM ! If they want to search someplace it should be the home of the cop that MURDERED the man.
Now I've seen it all. This is just toooooo much.

*"*Police executed multiple search warrants at Botham Jean's apartment in the aftermath of the killing, and investigators said they found several items, including a small amount of marijuana, FOX 4 News reported.*"*
Lee Merritt, the attorney for Jean's family, blasted the search at Jean's apartment, saying it "highlights just sort of the nefarious nature of their investigation."

Botham Jean family lawyer slams police over apartment search after fatal shooting | Fox News

Sam


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

SamBond said:


> A SEARCH WARRANT? ... Looking to trash the MURDER VICTIM ! If they want to search someplace it should be the home of the cop that MURDERED the man.
> Now I've seen it all. This is just toooooo much.
> 
> *"*Police executed multiple search warrants at Botham Jean's apartment in the aftermath of the killing, and investigators said they found several items, including a small amount of marijuana, FOX 4 News reported.*"*
> ...


Police always trash the victim whenever they do something terrible. They want everyone to think he deserved it...no great loss, etc.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

The process undertaken by the police doesn't seem to fit the 'official' story. The case needs to go to trial, probably with manslaughter charged. Even so, looks like there will be no balance in the investigation. An LEO principal _plus_ racist 'lean' is a formula for injustice.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

It is normal to extensively search a crime scene where a possible felony has been committed. This certainly does appear to be looking for a way to "smear" the victim, but it's not unusual at all to obtain a search warrant in a case like this even if a LEO hadn't been involved. I do think there's more to the story than we know of.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

According to early ear witness accounts, two individuals stated that they heard a female banging on the apartment door, and shouting, let me in. 

Yes.....there's going to be more to the story than what has been exposed already.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I believe that I read somewhere that the cop has been arraigned on a charge of manslaughter.
That would seem at least minimally appropriate.

Is my memory correct, about what I read?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> From the article to which we've been linked: "...'If it was a white man, would it have been different? Would she have reacted differently?' Allison Jean said Friday."
> I suggest that, if the report we have been given to read is true, the answer to that question is "No."
> 
> Let's begin by assuming that, like most of us, the officer kept her apartment locked during her absence.
> ...


It's much needed to note (as you did) the big " IF ". 
Source of information, reliability, etc.

Then give an opinion based on " IF " this is true....My opinion would be.....


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I believe that I read somewhere that the cop has been arraigned on a charge of manslaughter.
> That would seem at least minimally appropriate.
> 
> Is my memory correct, about what I read?


Yes, manslaughter.

However, in a case where murder _could_ be the crime, or the lesser crimes of manslaughter or even involuntary manslaughter _could_ be appropriate a defendant could be charged with murder but convicted of a lesser crime.
The jury would decide between the three assuming they are given the choice to do so.

BUT, being charged with manslaughter there is a chance that the jury could be given the opportunity to decide on the lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter.
Possibly (?) even something as low as violating the mans civil rights.... ? < Anybody here know about that one? 
Could she end up convicted of violating his civil rights?

Sam


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SamBond said:


> ...Could she end up convicted of violating his civil rights?


That's a federal charge, to be separately fought through federal courts.

Her manslaughter charge is a state matter, which, in many states, would first be handled by her county's Superior Court.
(I don't have any knowledge of the Texas legal system. They may do things differently...or larger...in Texas.)


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dallas-police-officer-accused-neighbors-death-fired-161117434.html


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

I keep coming back to the red door mat. It just seems to me one would notice something like that. Maybe things will be better explained in the future.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, this is going to be an interesting one to follow.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

Unless there is some sort of probable cause to believe she had some sort of relationship, motive, or even knew the gentleman, I believe her story. A 15 hour shift arresting multiple suspects for armed robbery/ that's a long day in anybody's book. Sounds like she was doing more than eating donuts that night. If you have sleep deprivation you can get very spacey to say the least. Some may have never experienced this, but I have, and could have walked right over a red carpet not realizing if it was mine or not, coupled with the fact we don't know the lighting or even if a red carpet was there in the first place. 

Remember, we don't know all the facts, and we were not there, so best to leave it to the fact finder. 

Then again, I've had folks live above me in a condo and tromp around that could really get on my nerves and drive me nuts. Then again, I was known to have some pretty wild parties myself and my guests were tromping around, boxing drunk, wrestling, etc........ A race baiting article and a black lives matter attorney? Here we go.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

denner12 said:


> Unless there is some sort of probable cause to believe she had some sort of relationship, motive, or even knew the gentleman, I believe her story. A 15 hour shift arresting multiple suspects for armed robbery/ that's a long day in anybody's book. Sounds like she was doing more than eating donuts that night. If you have sleep deprivation you can get very spacey to say the least. Some may have never experienced this, but I have, and could have walked right over a red carpet not realizing if it was mine or not, coupled with the fact we don't know the lighting or even if a red carpet was there in the first place.
> 
> Remember, we don't know all the facts, and we were not there, so best to leave it to the fact finder.
> 
> Then again, I've had folks live above me in a condo and tromp around that could really get on my nerves and drive me nuts. Then again, I was known to have some pretty wild parties myself and my guests were tromping around, boxing drunk, wrestling, etc........ A race baiting article and a black lives matter attorney? Here we go.


That's some pretty wild speculation you're offering up. I've worked 24 hr. shifts plenty of times and never once went home and entered the wrong residence.

There's more to the story and it'll be made public sooner or later.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

paratrooper said:


> That's some pretty wild speculation you're offering up. I've worked 24 hr. shifts plenty of times and never once went home and entered the wrong residence.
> 
> There's more to the story and it'll be made public sooner or later.


So, what do you believe happened? In that 24 hour shift, did you arrest multiple armed robbery suspects? Wild speculation, just because you didn't doesn't mean somebody else couldn't, does it? At hotels not that much unlike apartments I've got the wrong door once or twice.

Para, this is an interesting article on officer sleep deprivation and insomnia:

https://www.nij.gov/journals/270/Pages/officer-wellness.aspx


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

denner12 said:


> So, what do you believe happened? In that 24 hour shift, did you arrest multiple armed robbery suspects? Wild speculation, just because you didn't doesn't mean somebody else couldn't, does it? At hotels not that much unlike apartments I've got the wrong door once or twice.
> 
> Para, this is an interesting article on officer sleep deprivation and insomnia:
> 
> https://www.nij.gov/journals/270/Pages/officer-wellness.aspx


I worked rotating shifts for 30 yrs. I changed shifts sometimes as often as one week.

I'm just thinking there's more to it than just a mistaken apartment. The fact that there's not more info. being released as of yet, leads me to that. It's being held back for a reason.

Sleep disorders of some kind or another, are very common, and not just among police officers. More people than not, have some kind. It's more prominent as you grow older.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

The lawyer for the family of the man that was murdered claims there have been multiple noise complaints, from the she cop, against him. (Directly above her place).
He also claims neighbors heard her demanding he open the door along with loud voices.

You can be sure the family is in shock, makes them easy to manipulate. It's too bad the family let that race bating lawyer get in on it. 
That alone makes me wonder if spin is more important than truth with _that_ lawyer. (I know it has been in the past).
But if what he's saying is true.....

Sam


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

A recent article said the officer has been fired.

When she went back home, I wonder if she had trouble finding........


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

Meanwhile, one year later...

Reported on national news this morning, the she cop's murder trail will start this coming week.
If reported correctly that would mean she has been charged with murder?
We'll see what happens...



Sam


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

CONVICTED


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

tony pasley said:


> CONVICTED


Yes, I'd heard the same thing.


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

SamBond said:


> You can be sure the family is in shock, makes them easy to manipulate. It's too bad the family let that race bating lawyer get in on it.
> That alone makes me wonder if *spin is more important than truth with that lawyer.* (I know it has been in the past).
> *But if what he's saying is true.....*
> 
> Sam


*"But if what he's saying is true....." *Turns out, not true. Just spin... AGAIN ! The she-cop was not banging on the door demanding he open up.

The Texas Rangers investigated the case and recommended a charge of manslaughter.
The grand jury didn't fall for that. The charge was murder. The convection, murder. The sentence, ten years. 
The investigator, on the stand, said the she-cop did not commit a crime when she shot Jean. 
If it had been a black guy (or anyone) that got the wrong apartment and shot a cop... Would that Texas Ranger still claim it was not a crime?

Click below for a report from Dallas news w/video. Might want to bring Kleenex.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cou...-sentencing-phase-amber-guygers-murder-trial/

Botham Jean's brother said he forgives she-cop and doesn't even want her to have to go to prison.
He has Christian love for her. He asked the judge if he could step down so he could hug her, and he did just that.
Those people (Botham's family) are better people than I could ever hope to be.

Sam


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