# How to aim?



## ajlandis (May 11, 2008)

I have two 1911's. A PT1911 and a DW CBOB. Neither shoot where I aim. Not sure if I'm lining up the sights right. On both of them I fill the notch of the rear sight in with the blade of the front sight, making the tops of them both even. Then I'll put the top of the blade on the center of the target, just so I can see the top half of the bull above the sights. On the DW, I have three dots, two on the rear sight, and one on the front. All three line up horizontally when I aim. On the Taurus, it has the heine sights. One dot below the notch in the rear sight, and one dot in the front blade. Whe I aim, the dots stack up like an 8. But when I shoot, the DW hits 4" high at 15 yards, and 5 1/2" high at 25 yards. Damned thing is, whe I shoot the PT, it shoots 2" low at 15 yards, and 5" low at 25. Both guns are pretty accurate, but it drives me crazy not hitting where I aim. Am I doing something wrong? Ammo is all wwb 230 grain ball. What's the deal?


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Some sights need adjustment. If you are certain it is not you, the old fashioned method of adjustment is to file the front sight to raise POI and rear sight to lower it. I prefer POI to be 1" to 1 1/2" high at 15 yards. To get a sharper view of sight -target alignment I place the bottom of bull on top of front sight with sights positioned as you indicated,


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

ajlandis said:


> I have two 1911's. A PT1911 and a DW CBOB. Neither shoot where I aim. Not sure if I'm lining up the sights right. On both of them I fill the notch of the rear sight in with the blade of the front sight, making the tops of them both even. Then I'll put the top of the blade on the center of the target, just so I can see the top half of the bull above the sights. On the DW, I have three dots, two on the rear sight, and one on the front. All three line up horizontally when I aim. On the Taurus, it has the heine sights. One dot below the notch in the rear sight, and one dot in the front blade. Whe I aim, the dots stack up like an 8. But when I shoot, the DW hits 4" high at 15 yards, and 5 1/2" high at 25 yards. Damned thing is, whe I shoot the PT, it shoots 2" low at 15 yards, and 5" low at 25. Both guns are pretty accurate, but it drives me crazy not hitting where I aim. Am I doing something wrong? Ammo is all wwb 230 grain ball. What's the deal?


If it's possible for you, hit the local indoor range and request a rangemaster shoot a few rounds with you to get a second opinion on the sights. Most rangemasters are pretty damn good shooters and more often than not they can verify if the sights are fine. You also have the option to test the sights via benchrest shooting, although a second opinion is more immediate and productive.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Before I did any filing on the sights, as suggested above, I would do some bench shooting with several different types of ammo - more specifically, ammo with different bullet weights. For the gun that is shooting high, try lighter weight bullets, and for the one that is shooting low, heavier bullets.

All other things being equal, a heavier bullet will stay in the barrel longer, during recoil, and shoot higher than a lighter bullet, and vice-versa. How much difference this makes will vary, because of many possible variations in charge, barrel length, caliber, etc. But I have had guns that would vary as much as 6" in elevation, from the lightest to the heaviest. I've also had guns that would shoot about the same with any bullet, but still, it's worth a try, unless you are just locked in on using a specific cartridge.


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## ajlandis (May 11, 2008)

I first noticed the issue while just shooting offhand. A few friends of mine also had the same complaints. That's when we got out the bench and sandbags. The groups at fifteen yards averaged about 2" for each gun. All groups were consistant with the way they shot offhand (DW several inches high, pt couple inches low). All of us have been shooting since kids, although handguns were basically limited to trapping pistols. However, the size of our groups give me reasonable confidence in our ability. Damn thing is, I've got a glock 22, a xd-m and a m&p compact, that are giving me the same issues- some a bit high, some a bit low. Same group of guys shooting, same hold, all consistant in poi. Most of my revolvers are dead-on. I just picked up a few different types of ammo for both the .45's and the 40's yesterday. If it stops raining long enough, I'll get out and see what they do. I'm hopeful, but it seems like 2-5" at 15 yards is a lot to overcome with just a change of ammo. But then again, I'm mostly a rifle guy, so I shouldn't assume these respond in similar manners. I'd hate to think I need to file down sights. Does anyone make sights with different elevations, short of going to a target sight? 
Thanks for the help, by the way.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

ajlandis said:


> I'm hopeful, but it seems like 2-5" at 15 yards is a lot to overcome with just a change of ammo.


It may work out that way.

But I had a Kahr 9mm that shot 6" low with 115 grain practice loads (FMJ) and dead on with 147 grain JHP's in a self-defense load. I had a similar experience with a Kahr P-45, between 185 grain and 230 grain ammo. These were both short-barreled guns, with polygonal rifling, and I don't know if that is a factor.

It's just something I would check, before doing anything to the sights, unless I was determined to shoot specific ammo. In my case, with the Kahrs, I just switched ammo.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Bisley said:


> It may work out that way.
> 
> But I had a Kahr 9mm that shot 6" low with 115 grain practice loads (FMJ) and dead on with 147 grain JHP's in a self-defense load. I had a similar experience with a Kahr P-45, between 185 grain and 230 grain ammo. These were both short-barreled guns, with polygonal rifling, and I don't know if that is a factor.
> 
> It's just something I would check, before doing anything to the sights, unless I was determined to shoot specific ammo. In my case, with the Kahrs, I just switched ammo.


+1

I've had and still have some handguns that just don't shoot some ammo as well. It's one of the things that got me into reloading. Looking for the bullet weight and load behind it for the best accuracy. Just because they cycle does not mean they are working well. Before I went to making a mod to a weapon I'd check out several different loads and be somewhere where I could bag in and really check things out.


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## FlaChef (Dec 31, 2008)

at least with the heine's i beleive they are designed for a "combat hold" where one covers the bulseye with the dot vs a "target hold" where you put the top of the post at bottom (or mid) of bullseye.


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## ajlandis (May 11, 2008)

Well, I finally got a chance to shoot some different ammo today. The only stuff I could get the other day was blazer brass and speer lawman, both 230 grain fmj. Anyway, the blazer shot the closest to poa out of those two and the wwb. It was still about 1" low at 15 yards, and a couple inches low at 25 yards. Not exactly satisfied, but it gives me hope that I'll find something that shoots where I want it. The CBOB is a different story. Both of the two new types of ammo shot almost exactly the same as the wwb. 3-4" high at 15 yards, 5-6" high at 25, but accurate as hell with all ammo. Might end up biting the bullet and installing target sights on that one. And a trigger job is in order. I'm going to try to find some more different brands and varying weights and see what happens. 
What are good brands of target sights if I end up going that way? Are they fairly durable? What should I be looking for?

PS FlaChef, I didn't try groups with the hold like you mentioned. I aimed like that, but couldn't get used to aiming without the bull being visable. I'll try a few groups like that when I get back out.


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## ECHOONE (Dec 10, 2008)

Practice dry firing


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