# I don't understand ammo!!



## jhigley (Sep 1, 2008)

I don't get ammo. I've looked at all sorts of ballistics on personal pertection rounds and it seems like the lighter grain rounds are faster and have more energy. So why would people perferr heavier and slower ammo to protect themselves with.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

Think of it in terms of physics. 

The energy in the bullet = mass (grain wt.) x velocity. A given pressure in the chamber from the burning gun powder will push a lighter bullet faster and a heavier bullet slower. Both will have the same energy leaving the barrel (assuming everything else -friction, etc. stays the same).

A heavier bullet will retain more energy (or will loose less energy) by the time it hits the target - there will be less energy lost to air friction since its going at a slower speed to start with - air friction increases at the square of the speed increase, so if the bullet goes twice as fast, the air friction will be 4 times as much. The heavier bullet has also got more inertia due to the greater weight. 

Also, bigger bullets make bigger holes! 

Does this help?


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Maybe it's because the heavier grain may lodge the bullet more effectively.

Are you looking to buy ammo or just shootin the breeze?


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## jhigley (Sep 1, 2008)

*need ammo*

I'm looking for the best ammo for personal defense. I have a Kahr CW9. I recently bought some Federal Premium 124 gr. Hydra-shok JHP's but they are worthless. They won't even chamber right.


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## Fred40 (Jan 7, 2008)

jhigley said:


> I'm looking for the best ammo for personal defense. I have a Kahr CW9. I recently bought some Federal Premium 124 gr. Hydra-shok JHP's but they are worthless. They won't even chamber right.


Just remember that "placement" is the most important factor of all. I'll kill ya with my .22....if I put it in the right spot. :mrgreen: Granted a larger bullet gives you more leeway in stopping your target.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

jhigley said:


> I'm looking for the best ammo for personal defense. I have a Kahr CW9. I recently bought some Federal Premium 124 gr. Hydra-shok JHP's but they are worthless. They won't even chamber right.


Describe not chambering right.

What is your experience level?
Is your Kahr new?
Has it been thouroughly cleaned?
Does it feed FMJ rounds acceptably?

Give us some info to work with and we will try to help.


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## jhigley (Sep 1, 2008)

*chambered*

I would say I am a ametur shooter but not a rookie. When I put the fereral rounds next to other JHP's they were a touch longer. They wouldn't even feed into the clip right let alone feed to the barrell. When I try to pull the slide back it jams. The gun is still fairly new, I've pumped around 600 FMJ rounds throught it.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

One should always use ammo that functions properly, now you know of one that doesn't, at least for you. When ammo does not feed into the mag properly, that is a good indication that something is wrong and I wouldn't even attempt going any further, my advice would be to try Speer Gold Dot.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

The number 1 criteria is that the cartridge brand/type work in your gun.

Standard Remington or Winchester JHP's are better than any premium high dollar stuff that doesn't feed through the mechanism. A BG will probably not be able to tell you what cost range ammo hit him anyway.

If the cartridge will not load into the magazine properly then that is certainly the wrong round for you.

Did the shorter JHP's work properly or did you just do a physical comparison.?

See if someone will swap a few rounds of a different brand/type and fire for effect.

I would try some lower cost shorter rounds and see what happens.

I don't own a Kahr so can't give you first hand advise but perhaps someone else will chime in.

Good luck,


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## jhigley (Sep 1, 2008)

9mm luger speer gold dot 124gr or 9mm Luger +P speer gold dot 124gr


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## jhigley (Sep 1, 2008)

*what about*

Is Corbon a good ammo? And why does everyone on this forum love speer ammo so much?


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

jhigley said:


> 9mm luger speer gold dot 124gr or 9mm Luger +P speer gold dot 124gr


Check the owners manual.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

jhigley said:


> Is Corbon a good ammo? And why does everyone on this forum love speer ammo so much?


Never tried it. Why would you assume that everybody on this forum loves Speer ammo?


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## jhigley (Sep 1, 2008)

I read through the favorite 9mm loads poll.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

I'm very close to breaking out the BS button but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Try Speer, Corbon, or whatever else you want but if and when you find a brand that works for you then I suggest you stick with it.

Good luck.


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

> And why does everyone on this forum love speer ammo so much?


Speer Gold Dot is one of the preferred rounds around here for several reasons. Firstly, and probably most pertinent to your situation is very few, if any, have had problems with it cycling through their gun. Secondly, it is proven to consistently penetrate sufficiently and expand reliably in ballistic gelatin tests. Thirdly, in the FBI ballistics test, it was considered one of the best 9mm rounds tested, particularly in the +P version. It is one of the rounds used by many law enforcement agencies that go with 9mm.

Having said that, as was previously mentioned, shot placement is king. Most any of the top JHP brands will do given well placed shots - *so long as it will cycle reliably in your gun*.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Corbon is good ammo.

The Speer rounds ppl are talking about are pretty good too. It's odd the Federal rounds are not working fright for ya. They are a good defense round. Al guns are different though and will like some things better than others. I got some Magtech rounds the other day that I really like, Mostly because of how it spreads out on target.


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## Black Metal (Jan 16, 2008)

The federal Hydra-shocks load great and cycle perfectly through my wifes PM9 don't pull the slide back or ride the slide shut, use the slide release and it should chamber fine. If you read your owners manual you would already know that.


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

jay

most i have read is 124g +P 9mm
speer gold dot or
remington golden sabre

I shot a clip thru my gun to make sure all functioned then i kept them for the SD clips - i use the cheaper 115g from walmart for practicing

i also was surprised that most recommended the 124 +P - I would have thought the 147g for a bigger bullet - most incidents are within 30' so i think any would do at that range - if it is an intruder in the house - you can check you own house and realize what the max distance would be thus
any bullet at closer distances would work


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

As a couple of the guys have pointed out, just about any of the modern, premium HP loads work fine for defense. The performance of one is almost indistinguishable from the next. Find one that is reliable in your pistol and that you can control in rapid fire.

Then forget about ammo and move on to things that actually matter for defense: mindset, marksmanship, gunhandling skill, and tactics. People get way too worked up about the almost-irrelevant "hardware" and forget that it is the critical "software" that matters.


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## OMSBH44 (Jul 7, 2006)

Something no one has yet mentioned. 

If it won't fit into your magazine, then it is probably one of two problems.
Either you have the wrong magazine, or the wrong caliber.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Mike makes a great point. Many shooters get very confused and worry too much about ammo selection. I should know because I used to lose sleep over such matters. 

I am of the firm belief that the premium selection from any of the big ammo companies will work for self defense as long as it functions in your weapon. Right off the top of my head I can think of Federal Hydra-Shok, Tactical, HST, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester whatever they call their stuff these days, or Speer Gold Dots. I am sure there are many more selections out there.

I should add that when I have a choice, I normally buy Speer Gold Dots and I prefer the 124 grain rounds. Also, if I have a choice between "regular" and +p, I buy +p. So I do have a prefered load, but that does not mean I do not feel comfortable using something else.


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## Jon S (Nov 18, 2007)

Here's a thought I heard a while back on the GunTalk radio show. Tom said something about slow and heavy being good for a 45 to avoid overpenetration (I halfway remember this, halfway I am making it up). I do know that he recommended fast and light for a 9mm to insure proper expansion. He made a claim that a HP might not expand much if it hits the target at a low velocity. FWIW


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Shoot the BG with whatever you have until the threat is eliminated.


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## Old Padawan (Mar 16, 2007)

You will note that most of the people in this thread have said a very similar thing. It doesn’t really matter as long as it works. Take that info to heart. People spend too much time on the minor detail of bullet weight vs. powder charge. Worry about training and practice.
Some people will still purchase a premium Hollow Point; I carry the Remington 180 grain HP. I make this choice because they are cheap to buy at Wall mart in the 100 round boxes.
I disagree with the thought process of preserving my “carry ammo”. I don’t believe in unloading my carry ammo when I get to the range and not shooting it because it is expensive. Some people have had the same ammo with them for months to years. I shoot my gun as it sits when I get to the range. When I leave, I put my spare mag in and carry those until the next shooting trip.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

kev74 said:


> Think of it in terms of physics.
> 
> The energy in the bullet = mass (grain wt.) x velocity. A given pressure in the chamber from the burning gun powder will push a lighter bullet faster and a heavier bullet slower. Both will have the same energy leaving the barrel (assuming everything else -friction, etc. stays the same).
> 
> ...


You've got it off by a bit Kev...

Assuming the bullet stays inside the target (ie 100% energy expenditure), the Kinetic energy imparted by a bullet = mass X velocity SQUARED. Or, simply put, E=MxVXV.

The velocity of the bullet has MUCH more to do with energy than the mass.

The momentum imparted by a bullet = mass X velocity.

But, in most cases, it's energy that does the damage, more so than momentum, since no matter how fast a 124, 147, even 230gr bullet is moving, it won't impart enough energy to knock you over.

But then... energy is not the only factor that determines "leathality", or "stopping power". Momentum (ie mass) is more important for "stability" of the bullet (deflection from path). A heavier bullet, AT THE SAME VELOCITY, will have a greater tendancy to stay "on path" through clothing, bones, belt leather, bullet proof vests... in order to get to vital organs. Because of this, heavier bullets will tend to penetrate deeper, maintaining more energy after initial impact.

The lighter faster bullet gets there quicker, with more "energy", but also bleeds off energy faster after it hits. It tends not to penetrate as deeply.

So which is better???

Which came first, the chicken, or the egg...

There are as many legitimate arguements for fast and light, as there are for heavy and slow... In reality, BOTH will do the job equally well 99% of the time.

Which should you choose?

Choose the ammo that 1) Functions flawlessly in your carry gun of choice, 2) Allows you to control the gun the best, as 2-3 good hits is always better than one marginal hit, and two misses.

That said, virtually ALL the modern hollowpoint, brand name ammo is fine... the rest is just marketing BS to get you to pay more for one brand over another...

Good clear thinking, good tactics and training, plenty of practice with the gun you actually carry, and good bullet placement account for 99% of success or failure (life or death) in a gun fight... IMO

Ammo selection makes up the other 1%...

In my growing state of "informedness"...

Jeff


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

JeffWard said:


> Which came first, the chicken, or the egg...


A chicken and an egg are in bed together when the chicken rolls over and starts to smoke. The egg then says, "Well that solves that argument then..."

BTW, all that reading has got me feeling... 

Good info though. :smt023


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