# New to Shooting...Caliber suggestion with lack of ammo?



## jbultman

Hey all,

I'm am looking to get my first handgun and not quite sure of what to get. I have been looking at calibers like .22 and 9mm however because I can't seem to find any cheap ammo to practice with, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Thus I am quite befuddled on what caliber to get; do I pay more for .22 or 9mm ammo or go with a with more readily available ammo .40 or .45. Will this "shortage" end, where I can get 9mm and/ or .22 cheaper or do i just have to deal with it? Ideally I would learn to reload ammo to save money, but starting out it might be a bit much.

Suggestions on pistols for the suggested caliber is welcome!
I will be using this for the range/ practice and home defense. 

Thanks in advance,
jbultman


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## pic

First handgun, ok, but how much experience do you have shooting, maybe long guns, hunting???? Your talking about reloading which is sometimes a hint of some experience


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## jbultman

pic said:


> First handgun, ok, but how much experience do you have shooting, maybe long guns, hunting???? Your talking about reloading which is sometimes a hint of some experience


Actually not much experience... I have shot .22 and 9mm pistols, and a .22 "ar" rifle and a 16g shotgun. But only a couple of times, and not on a regular basis. The only reason I mention reloading is because of the opportunity to save money.


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## paratrooper

Try not to let the ammo crisis (shortage) play a big role in determining what caliber of firearm to buy. Although it's just my opinion, I truly believe it will blow over in the near future. 

A 9mm is a popular caliber and always will be. And, once the ammo is back on the shelves, it's not all that pricey to buy. 

Since you mentioned that whatever you buy, it will be used for home defense, you don't want a .22 for that. Again, a 9mm will serve that purpose fine. 

The ammo is out there, but you have to hunt for it. Sure, you'll pay more than what it might have been several months ago, but buy it if you can afford it. 

I have several 9mm's and always will have. When it comes to semi-auto pistols, it has a proven track record.


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## Steve M1911A1

I suggest sticking to either 9mm or .45 ACP. Very soon, they will be back on dealers' shelves in proper quantity.
The .40 is more difficult to master than either of those two, and the .22 is ineffective for most handgun uses (except target shooting).

In truth, any cartridge that you use, if you have practiced enough to become proficient with it, will do any job you put in front of it. It's just that some cartridges will do most jobs better.
Accuracy trumps ballistics, every time. But accuracy depends upon practice beforehand, and upon also coolness under stress. There just is no replacement for practice.

The 9mm will end up cheapest, I believe.
I think that the .45 is easier to learn to shoot, if the pistol is full-size and full-weight.


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## jbultman

paratrooper said:


> Try not to let the ammo crisis (shortage) play a big role in determining what caliber of firearm to buy. Although it's just my opinion, I truly believe it will blow over in the near future.
> 
> A 9mm is a popular caliber and always will be. And, once the ammo is back on the shelves, it's not all that pricey to buy.
> 
> Since you mentioned that whatever you buy, it will be used for home defense, you don't want a .22 for that. Again, a 9mm will serve that purpose fine.
> 
> The ammo is out there, but you have to hunt for it. Sure, you'll pay more than what it might have been several months ago, but buy it if you can afford it.
> 
> I have several 9mm's and always will have. When it comes to semi-auto pistols, it has a proven track record.





Steve M1911A1 said:


> I suggest sticking to either 9mm or .45 ACP. Very soon, they will be back on dealers' shelves in proper quantity.
> The .40 is more difficult to master than either of those two, and the .22 is ineffective for most handgun uses (except target shooting).
> 
> In truth, any cartridge that you use, if you have practiced enough to become proficient with it, will do any job you put in front of it. It's just that some cartridges will do most jobs better.
> Accuracy trumps ballistics, every time. But accuracy depends upon practice beforehand, and upon also coolness under stress. There just is no replacement for practice.
> 
> The 9mm will end up cheapest, I believe.
> I think that the .45 is easier to learn to shoot, if the pistol is full-size and full-weight.


Thanks guys this helps knowing that people think this will blow over soon because I really believe that the 9mm is in all honesty what I have been leaning toward the whole time, but wouldn't mind a .40 or .45, too. Now I believe that I'm inching toward the 9mm mainly because of the track record, reliability and (soon to be, again) reasonably priced ammo (However correct me if I'm wrong). I guess the main question is, "What one?" I know there are going to be many opinions on this one, but I've been looking at the 9mm; Smith and Wesson M&P, Glock 17, Springfield XDm or Beretta 92 FS... Suggestions, opinions? I think its going to end up being a preference call because from what I've read there are all good guns. 
Other suggestions are welcome, I know I'm forgetting a lot a good guns and brands. 
Thanks... again


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## Steve M1911A1

jbultman said:


> ...I guess the main question is, "What one?" I know there are going to be many opinions on this one, but I've been looking at the 9mm; Smith and Wesson M&P, Glock 17, Springfield XDm or Beretta 92 FS... Suggestions, opinions?...


Choosing a gun...
See: http://www.handgunforum.net/general-semi-auto/22239-selecting-handgun-self-defense.html
Also see: http://www.handgunforum.net/new-handguns-area/2496-newbie-guns-need-help-where-start.html
Also see: http://www.handgunforum.net/new-handguns-area/34495-another-first-gun-thread.html
Also see: http://www.handgunforum.net/new-handguns-area/29569-valueable-resource-beginer-comparison-site.html

There's lots more. Use the forum's _search_ function, and find 'em.


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## paratrooper

I've always been partial to Beretta or Sig. Both are world-class handguns and excellent quality. 

I have several Beretta's right now, but only one Sig. I do hope to change that in the near future. :smt002


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## shouldazagged

Don't rule out revolvers. A wheel gun in .357 Magnum gives you the option of firing .38 Special or the Mags, and there's a wide range of loads available in both calibers.


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## pic

shouldazagged said:


> Don't rule out revolvers. A wheel gun in .357 Magnum gives you the option of firing .38 Special or the Mags, and there's a wide range of loads available in both calibers.


Absolutely ,,revolvers are great to start with , or end with.


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## SouthernBoy

If it is a pistol you're considering and you want something soon, I am going to take the assumption that you are not only looking to get a "fun" target gun, but also something you will use for home defense and possibly as a carry gun. This is going to pretty much rule out anything in 9mm because of the scarcity of ammunition. And that situation is likely to continue for some time. This leaves us the other two popular calibers: the .40S&W and the .45ACP. speaking strictly from the cost, the .40S&W is going to be less expensive to shoot. When all things are considered equal, gun size, feel, and weight, the .40 tends to have slightly more felt recoil than does the .45... but not all that much.

The guns you mentioned, Smith and Wesson M&P, Glock 17, Springfield XDm or Beretta 92 FS are all full sized guns and three of these can be had in .40S&W and .45ACP, but the Beretta 92 cannot be had in .45ACP Three of them are striker fired and are classed as DAO (Double Action Only) guns, the M&P series, the Glock 17, and the XD series, whereas the Beretta 92 series is a DA (Double Action) design. All are fine guns and should serve you well. Now it gets to the personal opinion segment.

If you are going to carry this gun as well as use if for fun times on the range, I would go with the Glock, M&P, or XD. I say this because they are lighter and because of their DAO design, then do be better carry guns. Please, for my friends on this site, I stress that this is entirely a personal opinion.

Now for a newbie to all of this, of this three striker fired guns in the .40 or .45, the M&P has the edge simple because of its ergonomics and general overall feel. It tends to spread recoil throughout the entire hand(s) and is quite comfortable to shoot in the .40 and the .45 caliber. This makes this gun easier to master and easier for the shooter to gain confidence as he practices.

Now if you don't mind waiting until things national smooth over and ammunition is generally more readily available, then this changes the picture and I would suggest the 9mm because of its lower cost and the fact that it is an easier platform for someone new to this. And if things ease up, you really need to do what anyone new to all of this should do. Go to a range that rents these guns and try out the ones you have in your candidate list. That is going to be the best arbiter for your decision process.


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## pic

Like I said about revolvers being very good to start/end with, I forgot to mention if you decide on a semi auto, I'ts my opinion to get an exposed hammer, with an external manual safety that sometimes has the built in decocking feature.
I would avoid striker fired handguns as a first gun newbie. I have had great feedback from my people in their quick gains of confidence with the obvious visuals of exposed hammer , safety lever, decocking action.


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## Steve M1911A1

SouthernBoy said:


> ...This leaves us the other two popular calibers: the .40S&W and the .45ACP....[and] *the .40S&W is going to be less expensive to shoot*...[emphasis added]


Is this really true?
I seem to have noticed the exact opposite, but that was a long time ago.


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## paratrooper

From what I've seen lately, the .40 cal. is more expensive and harder to find.


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## pic

Here in NY , Where 10 rounds is the limit..
That brings the 45. 40 ,more into play as equaling demanding as a 9 mm where high capacity is allowed in other venues, states.


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## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Is this really true?
> I seem to have noticed the exact opposite, but that was a long time ago.


It was the last time I bought WWB at Wally World. Of course, ammo is no different that any other commodity; supply and demand. These two calibers are pretty close in a lot of things, so it comes down to physical characteristics in the guns chambered for them, my opinion. Example, with the M&P Smiths, their versions in .40S&W are fine shooters and quite comfortable as are their .45ACP versions. So that one really pretty much eliminates concerns about recoil.

His best friend is to try his candidate selections at some range or through a friend who had these guns so that he can see what works best for him.

As for me, I am by no means a snob when ie comes to calibers and have great examples in all three of the ones the OP favors. And I have carried all three, but admit to preferring one of my gen3 Glock 23's (which is, of course, a .40s&W). But then, the one that is in my home for HD is a gen3 Glock 19 (which is a 9mm as most know). Go figure. And the when I carry a .45ACP, it is my M&P full size frame with a 4" barrel that gets the nod. I will say that I have been considering getting a Glock 21SF. It gets great reviews and does interest me. I'm covered when it comes to a quality 1911 with my Kimber Custom.


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## mjl4237

Jbultman
I haven't been shooting in a couple years and got back into it the last few months. I got a Glock 17 because I wanted to try the IDPA competition (which is a lot of fun). I've done it a few times so far. If there are any clubs in your area I encourage you to try. Its also good practice. Anyway, I got the G17 because I can also put a conversion kit on it for .22lr. Tactical solutions and Advantage Arms makes the kit (there are other conversion kits for other brand weapons also). The Tactical solutions 17/22 conversion kit that I got is a little finicky on the ammunition used. It likes the CCI mini mag so far. I'm still working on breaking it in. Take a look on Youtube for some good reviews also.


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## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> It was the last time I bought WWB at Wally World. Of course, ammo is no different that any other commodity; supply and demand. These two calibers are pretty close in a lot of things, so it comes down to physical characteristics in the guns chambered for them, my opinion. Example, with the M&P Smiths, their versions in .40S&W are fine shooters and quite comfortable as are their .45ACP versions. So that one really pretty much eliminates concerns about recoil.
> 
> His best friend is to try his candidate selections at some range or through a friend who had these guns so that he can see what works best for him.
> 
> As for me, I am by no means a snob when ie comes to calibers and have great examples in all three of the ones the OP favors. And I have carried all three, but admit to preferring one of my gen3 Glock 23's (which is, of course, a .40s&W). But then, the one that is in my home for HD is a gen3 Glock 19 (which is a 9mm as most know). Go figure. And the when I carry a .45ACP, it is my M&P full size frame with a 4" barrel that gets the nod. I will say that I have been considering getting a Glock 21SF. It gets great reviews and does interest me. I'm covered when it comes to a quality 1911 with my Kimber Custom.


Wish I could get a high capacity up here in NY.

DARN CUOMO trying to knock it down to seven rounds max for any new magazines .

They are talking about allowing the 10 round mags but still only loading 7 bullets..that is nuts.


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> Wish I could get a high capacity up here in NY.
> 
> DARN CUOMO trying to knock it down to seven rounds max for any new magazines .
> 
> They are talking about allowing the 10 round mags but still only loading 7 bullets..that is nuts.


You certainly are correct about that. It truly is nuts. But then, those idiots you have in elected office have armed personnel with no seven or ten round limitations to worry about. Gee, I guess that make them special and you other folks in New York, who pay their salaries and are their bosses, are just plebeians at best in their eyes.

Contrast with what I am able to do where I live. Walk out of my home, sidearm or my choice on my person in full view, and go about whatever business I have in mind without fear of being hassled by my local police where I live or where I might go. And no cries of MAN WITH A GUN in a local business, no running from the door with their kids in arms, no nasty comments, and no wide-eye stares. Well, I do get the occasion wide-eyed stare and I make it a point to note the license plate when I can. Almost always it comes from out-of-staters.


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## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> You certainly are correct about that. It truly is nuts. But then, those idiots you have in elected office have armed personnel with no seven or ten round limitations to worry about. Gee, I guess that make them special and you other folks in New York, who pay their salaries and are their bosses, are just plebeians at best in their eyes.
> 
> Contrast with what I am able to do where I live. Walk out of my home, sidearm or my choice on my person in full view, and go about whatever business I have in mind without fear of being hassled by my local police where I live or where I might go. And no cries of MAN WITH A GUN in a local business, no running from the door with their kids in arms, no nasty comments, and no wide-eye stares. Well, I do get the occasion wide-eyed stare and I make it a point to note the license plate when I can. Almost always it comes from out-of-staters.


 Sounds great, do you open carry handguns? 
What are the out of staters staring about? Do you have a hunters long lgun rack, in a pick up truck?
Have a great day


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> Sounds great, do you open carry handguns?
> What are the out of staters staring about? Do you have a hunters long lgun rack, in a pick up truck?
> Have a great day


Most of the time I open carry and for very good reasons as far as I'm concerned and yes, they are handguns. I do carry concealed when I deem that to be in my better interests at some given place and time. I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees which means that I can no longer run or fight as I was once capable of doing My visible sidearm serves as a warning to anyone looking to do me harm that perhaps they would be better served to pick another victim. And while I did have one total knee replacement last October, I still have an "OEM" left knee and anyway, running and hard fighting is not in my picture. Add this this LSS (Lumbar Spinal Stenosis) which surfaced last January 2nd and things really go down hill for me. Yesterday, I had outpatient back surgery (the MILD procedure) and my back is slowly improving. But it's far from being back to 100% as it will take about two weeks to approach normalcy with it.

I suspect that when out-of-staters stare, it's because when they see my little friend it's just not something that is so foreign to them and something they would never imagine anyone could or would do. But then again, this IS Virginian and not New Jersey or New York so I would expect them to be somewhat taken back by it. About two years ago, I helped some New Yorkers get back on an interstate highway in my area. I started at a gas station when they asked my how they could find an entrance to this highway. I told them but then I suggested they follow me through a back way to get to this highway, which they did. They were very nice and I never saw them gawking at my visible sidearm. I was in my car that day.

My other vehicle is a Ranger pickup whereas my two cars (one driven by my wife) are performance sedans. I do not have a gun rack in my pickup.


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## chiltech500

Good luck with your decision jbult I know all that jargon in these threads will eventually come to mean something to you  I'm into my 4th month of handgun ownership and I have finally figured out all the acronyms and terms. May I recommend an NRA basic pistol course...they will touch on all these topics and help you out quite a bit - best deal at $100-125 going.

In PA we can open carry legally but I've been advised law enforcement isn't to keen on it and will check you out carefully.


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## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> Most of the time I open carry and for very good reasons as far as I'm concerned and yes, they are handguns. I do carry concealed when I deem that to be in my better interests at some given place and time. I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees which means that I can no longer run or fight as I was once capable of doing My visible sidearm serves as a warning to anyone looking to do me harm that perhaps they would be better served to pick another victim. And while I did have one total knee replacement last October, I still have an "OEM" left knee and anyway, running and hard fighting is not in my picture. Add this this LSS (Lumbar Spinal Stenosis) which surfaced last January 2nd and things really go down hill for me. Yesterday, I had outpatient back surgery (the MILD procedure) and my back is slowly improving. But it's far from being back to 100% as it will take about two weeks to approach normalcy with it.
> 
> I suspect that when out-of-staters stare, it's because when they see my little friend it's just not something that is so foreign to them and something they would never imagine anyone could or would do. But then again, this IS Virginian and not New Jersey or New York so I would expect them to be somewhat taken back by it. About two years ago, I helped some New Yorkers get back on an interstate highway in my area. I started at a gas station when they asked my how they could find an entrance to this highway. I told them but then I suggested they follow me through a back way to get to this highway, which they did. They were very nice and I never saw them gawking at my visible sidearm. I was in my car that day.
> 
> My other vehicle is a Ranger pickup whereas my two cars (one driven by my wife) are performance sedans. I do not have a gun rack in my pickup.


Open carry is a great option to have. I'm sure you wear it well ,with your knowledge and experience.
Would like to have the option here, but NY is tough. CCW is not bad for an upstate New Yorker , I'll take it


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## paratrooper

Here in AZ., we can carry open or concealed w/o a permit. It's not uncommon to go into a McDonald's or a grocery store, and see someone packing in plain view. 

We can own / possess full-auto firearms as well, with appropriate permits.


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## OHshooter

I just got a conversion barrel for my Glock 27 and it works great. For $100 I can now switch calibers in 30 seconds and it let's me shoot what I can buy so that could be another option. Also in my area you can buy .38 all day long if you want to try a revolver.


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## pic

paratrooper said:


> Here in AZ., we can carry open or concealed w/o a permit. It's not uncommon to go into a McDonald's or a grocery store, and see someone packing in plain view.
> 
> We can own / possess full-auto firearms as well, with appropriate permits.


What are the requirements to purchase a handgun?


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## paratrooper

There's no waiting period, also known as a cool down period. After you fill out the 4473 Form, the dealer makes the telephone call to run the application. It's never taken me more than maybe 15-20 min. tops, for the whole process to take place. 

If it clears, you pay for the firearm and hit the door.


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> Here in AZ., we can carry open or concealed w/o a permit. It's not uncommon to go into a McDonald's or a grocery store, and see someone packing in plain view.
> 
> *We can own / possess full-auto firearms as well, with appropriate permits.*


We can, too. It's just that full auto firearms have to have been manufactured prior to 1986 (federal law), so their number is limited which makes them quite expensive. Then you have to find people willing to sell. We have some Class 3 dealers in my area so it is possible to get a fully automatic firearm if you really want one.

If this is too much to go through, just get one of these for your AR. Perfectly legal, not a Class 3 firearm which means no $200 tax stamp and trip through BATFE checks.

S&W M&P 15 w/ Slide Fire Stock - YouTube


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## SouthernBoy

Deleted due to duplicate post.


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## berettatoter

I used to have a "Pig from every Pen" when it came to handgun calibers, but have settled on the 9mm Luger. Its easier to stock just one caliber, but I have seen more .40 S&W around my area than any other caliber.


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## pic

paratrooper said:


> There's no waiting period, also known as a cool down period. After you fill out the 4473 Form, the dealer makes the telephone call to run the application. It's never taken me more than maybe 15-20 min. tops, for the whole process to take place.
> 
> If it clears, you pay for the firearm and hit the door.


I would have a big issue with such ease of access..
My wife would be bitching At ME.
"I send you out for a gallon of milk and you come home wit a 9mm,lol"
Actually it's not that difficult here in upstate ny once you already have your permit.
The liberal hoplophobes do not think that we are ready to be accountable for our actions as law abiding Americans .
I agree that there are people who should not own firearms. But then again ,there are more people out there who should not have children either,lol. Or driving an auto mobile..
once you have that firearm or become a parent.
Unless you really have a screw loose, responsibility, accountability takes hold .


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## chiltech500

> Actually it's not that difficult here in upstate ny once you already have your permit.


I'm surprised from what I've heard, it must be the NY City area then that is restricted. My indoor range is close to the border of NJ and it is home to lots of Joisey and Newyawkas, who talk about their restrictive situations 

Please don't take offense at my humor because I was born in Calicoon NY on the Deleware and spent my high school years in north jersey. Fortunately I spent 20 happy years out west in UT, ID, NV and Ca before relocating east to semi-rural PA. California did me in on dense population and I could never live in a major suburb of a big city again. PA seems to be an excellent choice for handguns too as it is a 15 minute phone call and 2 quick pages to fill out to buy.


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## pic

chiltech500 said:


> I'm surprised from what I've heard, it must be the NY City area then that is restricted. My indoor range is close to the border of NJ and it is home to lots of Joisey and Newyawkas, who talk about their restrictive situations
> 
> Please don't take offense at my humor because I was born in Calicoon NY on the Deleware and spent my high school years in north jersey. Fortunately I spent 20 happy years out west in UT, ID, NV and Ca before relocating east to semi-rural PA. California did me in on dense population and I could never live in a major suburb of a big city again. PA seems to be an excellent choice for handguns too as it is a 15 minute phone call and 2 quick pages to fill out to buy.


Your correct ,NY CITY is very restrictive.. I have a New York State permit, but not allowed to carry in the city of New York 
Fortunately I' m about 5-6 hours away. LIBERAL MINDED. Dumb #%*!!#$&?% NEW YORKERS. Watching my tongue,lol.
I have Gay people in my family whom I love, I will not judge them. I respect their rights.
But when I see governor Cuomo and Mayor Bloomberg marching in the gay parade and then denying or trying to change my way of life ,my rights. I object . During these gay parades, they happen all over the country,they sexually flaunt obscenely ,dress inappropriately, kissing each other's privates,, men grinding on each other, wearing womens clothes, wearing fake breasts.How do I explain to my children why these people are dressed and acting like that in public. Am I thinking with prejudice . Am I to narrow minded?


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## Smitty79

Why no Ruger love here? My SR40 has less felt recoil than the 1911's I used to shoot and feels better in my hand than anything I have tried.


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## paratrooper

Just saw on FOX News yesterday, that NY is the most *non-free *state in the union.

North Dakota was the most free state in the union.

This was a survey I guess, of individual rights of citizens in each state and whether or not, the state in question was over-bearing and / or, too restrictive in it's governing.


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## pic

paratrooper said:


> Just saw on FOX News yesterday, that NY is the most *non-free *state in the union.
> 
> North Dakota was the most free state in the union.
> 
> This was a survey I guess, of individual rights of citizens in each state and whether or not, the state in question was over-bearing and / or, too restrictive in it's governing.


NYC has 9 million people. The rest of ny state is 10 million..NYC should be it's own state. A republican president never wins NYS. The liberals love NEW YORK CITY


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> NYC has 9 million people. The rest of ny state is 10 million..NYC should be it's own state. A republican president never wins NYS. The liberals love NEW YORK CITY


I remember reading some years ago that when Andie MacDowell went to New York City to pursue her modeling career, she was told to lose her Southern accent or lose her chance at modeling . That tells me a lot right there.


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## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> I remember reading some years ago that when Andie MacDowell went to New York City to pursue her modeling career, she was told to lose her Southern accent or lose her chance at modeling . That tells me a lot right there.


Been to the big city a few times .Glad I live 5-6 hours away. It's nice to visit ,,to see the amazing skyscrapers, and a few other tourist spots. But it does attract the weirdos,etc,lol


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> Been to the big city a few times .Glad I live 5-6 hours away. It's nice to visit ,,to see the amazing skyscrapers, and a few other tourist spots. But it does attract the weirdos,etc,lol


I've never been to NYC. I'm not a fan of cities in general, preferring to live and work in the suburbs or even a little further out. Where I live now is three miles from the beginning of the Blue Ridge Mountains, yet I am about 35 miles west of Washington, DC so if I was of a mind to go city hopping, that's not too far away. But DC"s the pits so I don't go there unless I absolutely have to for some reason. Besides, you're not free if you live or go to DC. Maybe one of the prettiest cities I've seen is Charleston, SC. Wilmington, NC is nice, too. I've been to Los Angeles and that place is huge!


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## blake38

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...I think that the .45 is easier to learn to shoot, if the pistol is full-size and full-weight.


I have not heard anyone say that before. Can you elaborate? (What makes it easier.)

thanks
~ blake


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## Steve M1911A1

.
To my claim that the .45 ACP is an easier caliber with which to learn pistol shooting, *blake38* asked:



blake38 said:


> I have not heard anyone say that before. Can you elaborate? (What makes it easier.)
> 
> thanks
> ~ blake


I strongly believe that beginners should use a full-size, all-metal, full-weight pistol when learning pistol technique. The pistol should be held very firmly in the hands. (I tend to say "in a death grip" to make certain that this is clearly understood.) The shooter's elbows should be locked, as well.
In that case, the .45 ACP cartridge, particularly in its standard 230-grain-bullet, 850fps-velocity load, presents very little perceived recoil ("felt recoil") when its pistol is gripped correctly. The effect of this lessened perceived recoil is to help the shooter avoid pain, and the resultant flinching. (As a side issue, the "death grip" almost eliminates any possibility of "milking" the pistol's grip.) This adds tremendously to his (or her) success, accuracy, and feelings of confidence.
The .45 ACP cartridge fired from a heavy and full-size gun presents an easily accommodated "slow push" recoil effect, which differs materially from the "quick jab" of the 9mm and .40 cartridges. Since quite a lot of good self-defense pistol technique revolves around recoil control, I believe the .45 ACP to be ideal as a beginner's cartridge.


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## blake38

Thanks Steve. That's very interesting. I've never shot .45 ACP. I might give a rental a try. I currently own a Sig 1911-22--my first and only gun so far--my training wheels so to speak. I do like the ergonomics of the 1911 design.
~ blake


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## plp

I also live in an open carry state (Alabama) and when working in rural areas often do, but don't in urban or suburban areas. With the local farmers, firearms are just another tool and no big deal. 

I'm also new to firearms for all practical purposes, although I have occasionally shot and hunted since I was a kid. I prefer to plink with .22's at the range to keep my hand in, but .22 long rifle is getting just ridiculous as far as price, actually bought 1k rounds of 9mm at a gun show today cheaper than the asking price for the same amount of .22! 

As far as handguns, I researched long and hard before buying, and ended up getting a Ruger P-89 and P-90, in 9mm and .45ACP respectively. They are essentially the same handgun, extremely reliable, easy to break down and clean, and comparatively inexpensive. They are full framed, light recoil compared to a compact in the same caliber, and duplicate the operating system of my wife's SR-22, so she can pick either one up and know what to do in a stress situation. While my CCW is a S&W Bodyguard in .380 ACP, if I had to narrow everything down to a single caliber and single handgun, I'd go with the P-89 in 9mm. 

As to reloading, I'm in the same position as you, just don't know if I really want to go that route right now but have considered it due to ammo availability. My observations have been that if a retail outlet is out of 9mm, they are probably out of primers, brass and bullets as well. Back in February, which seemed to be the worst of the shortage, most places still had SOME .45ACP. I was buying it as an investment back then, had a good bit before I purchased my used P-90.

BTW, Steve is the equivalent of E.F.Hutton on this site. His practical, common sense advice is echoed by many of the more informed sources I've followed.


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## Trev1337

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I suggest sticking to either 9mm or .45 ACP. Very soon, they will be back on dealers' shelves in proper quantity.
> The .40 is more difficult to master than either of those two, and the .22 is ineffective for most handgun uses (except target shooting).
> 
> In truth, any cartridge that you use, if you have practiced enough to become proficient with it, will do any job you put in front of it. It's just that some cartridges will do most jobs better.
> Accuracy trumps ballistics, every time. But accuracy depends upon practice beforehand, and upon also coolness under stress. There just is no replacement for practice.
> 
> The 9mm will end up cheapest, I believe.
> I think that the .45 is easier to learn to shoot, if the pistol is full-size and full-weight.


My chief is all hung up on having us go with .45 as opposed to 9mm. Do you have an opinion on why he would want this? What are the significant differences, etc.?


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## pic

That was always the big debate years ago. A 45 knockdown round, or twice as many 9mm ,a more penetrating round, without the knockdown force..
today's ammo , ballistic forensics , changes everything...there is no set in stone rules ,or whatever to rule out one or the other. , Bullet placement,etc,etc,etc,


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## Steve M1911A1

Trev1337 said:


> My chief is all hung up on having us go with .45 as opposed to 9mm. Do you have an opinion on why he would want this? What are the significant differences, etc.?





pic said:


> That was always the big debate years ago. *A 45 knockdown round*, or twice as many 9mm ,a more penetrating round, without the knockdown force..
> today's ammo , ballistic forensics , changes everything...there is no set in stone rules ,or whatever to rule out one or the other. , Bullet placement,etc,etc,etc, [emphasis added]


*Trev1337*;
Maybe your chief believes (as I do) that a bigger hole is better than a smaller one, all other things being equal.
Maybe it's because the .45 is easier to learn to shoot well, as previously discussed.
Why not just ask your chief outright? Report back with his answer, and maybe we'll all learn something.

*pic*;
There's no such thing as "knockdown." Nothing short of a .50 "Ma Deuce" will reliably knock anyone down. Sometimes, multiple vital-zone hits will have almost no immediate effect, while at other times a "dink" with a .22 rimfire will result in instant incapacitation.
As you noted, it all has to do with accurate bullet placement...and also faith and patience.

A European gun writer once observed that when a European bad guy was hit with a single .32 ACP or .380 ACP bullet, he would be so dismayed and insulted that he would immediately sit down on the nearest curbstone and begin to cry. But when an American bad guy was hit with multiple .45 ACP bullets, he would become so angry that he would immediately try to kill the cop who had shot him.
It's all a matter of culture and custom.


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## Trev1337

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *Trev1337*;
> Maybe your chief believes (as I do) that a bigger hole is better than a smaller one, all other things being equal.
> Maybe it's because the .45 is easier to learn to shoot well, as previously discussed.
> Why not just ask your chief outright? Report back with his answer, and maybe we'll all learn something.
> 
> *pic*;
> There's no such thing as "knockdown." Nothing short of a .50 "Ma Deuce" will reliably knock anyone down. Sometimes, multiple vital-zone hits will have almost no immediate effect, while at other times a "dink" with a .22 rimfire will result in instant incapacitation.
> As you noted, it all has to do with accurate bullet placement...and also faith and patience.
> 
> A European gun writer once observed that when a European bad guy was hit with a single .32 ACP or .380 ACP bullet, he would be so dismayed and insulted that he would immediately sit down on the nearest curbstone and begin to cry. But when an American bad guy was hit with multiple .45 ACP bullets, he would become so angry that he would immediately try to kill the cop who had shot him.
> It's all a matter of culture and custom.


He says more power, bigger hole, and since he's the one training me, it's what he has always shot and it's what he recommends.


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## Steve M1911A1

*Trev1337*;
Generally speaking, a slow, heavy bullet will stop within its, um, target, and thereby transfer all of its energy to the target to do damage.
There are times when a fast-moving, relatively lightweight bullet will just pass on through, leaving little energy-and damage-behind.
Even though it tends to be a kind of weighted crapshoot, your chief and I choose to take our chances with the relatively slow, relatively heavy bullet. In cases in which the lighter and faster bullet might pass on through, the heavier and slower bullet will almost always stay within the target. Therefore, it seems to us to be a better bet.

Full Disclosure: Because of arthritis issues, I can no longer handle a .45 pocket pistol. I now use a really wimpy .380 ACP, and rely instead upon my ability to shoot accurately.


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## Trev1337

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *Trev1337*;
> Generally speaking, a slow, heavy bullet will stop within its, um, target, and thereby transfer all of its energy to the target to do damage.
> There are times when a fast-moving, relatively lightweight bullet will just pass on through, leaving little energy-and damage-behind.
> Even though it tends to be a kind of weighted crapshoot, your chief and I choose to take our chances with the relatively slow, relatively heavy bullet. In cases in which the lighter and faster bullet might pass on through, the heavier and slower bullet will almost always stay within the target. Therefore, it seems to us to be a better bet.
> 
> Full Disclosure: Because of arthritis issues, I can no longer handle a .45 pocket pistol. I now use a really wimpy .380 ACP, and rely instead upon my ability to shoot accurately.


Thanks for the advice, mate. You thinking I should stick with a .45 then?


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## Steve M1911A1

I can't tell you what to choose, but the .45 would be my own choice (absent the arthritis). It was my choice for about 40 years.
It seems to be your chief's choice, too.

Us old folks may not know all about the most recent whiz-bang wonder weapons, but we know a thing or two about what has been working well for quite a long time.
Lots of people in our military services are disillusioned with the 9mm pistol round, and some of the special-task services have switched back to the .45 ACP.


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## Trev1337

Well I really appreciate the advise. Helps out knowing people are open and able to help in my time of question.


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## pic

Also ,the 1911 is noted for it's excellent trigger.


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## Trev1337

I've been advised away from the 1911 because of the price. What's a good single stack handgun with no trigger safety or thumb safety? And NOT a Glock.


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## TAPnRACK

Sig Sauer P220 is a single stack .45 with a decocker. You can get an SRT trigger installed to make it a very fast shooter (or buy it already installed).


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## Trev1337

What's an aprox. retail price on that?


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## TAPnRACK

$800-$1,100... several variant models available. You may qualify for a police discount which will make it a little easier on the wallet.


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## pic

P220 is a very nice gun to take a look at

Gun Review: SIG Sauer P220 | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns


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## Trev1337

TAPnRACK said:


> $800-$1,100... several variant models available. You may qualify for a police discount which will make it a little easier on the wallet.


Excellent. Thanks.


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## Trev1337

pic said:


> P220 is a very nice gun to take a look at
> 
> Gun Review: SIG Sauer P220 | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns


I'll take a look. Much appreciated.


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## TAPnRACK

The Sig P226 Tac Ops is available in a .40 as well if you really want maximum capacity with just about every bell & whistle you could ask for in a serious duty/combat pistol. Mine's in 9mm and serves as my training & HD gun.










Comes standard with 4 mags as well... little harder to find right now, but people in here have been locating em' with a little effort & patience.


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## Trev1337

The major thing I'd like to do is decide which caliber to carry. Seems to be another tough choice.


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