# Need advice S&W sucks



## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

I had a thread earlier on this but wanted to start a new one. What would you do ( I want your advise) if you bought a new S&W 460 revolver from Gander Mtn. You shoot two boxes of Hornady 460's a box of 454's and a box of 45 long colts. The whole time you would shoot it, it would miss fire every 8th round or so, so you take it back to Gander Mtn and the gunsmith takes it in back to test fire it and tells you that the dam thing has a hell of a lot of blow back hitting your face. He even had a burn mark on his face. I thought it was an inherent thing from the 460 cartridge. He notes that too and sends it to Smith and Wesson. They replace the hammer and Cylinder and state the timing was off.
Now I'm happy and we buy a box of Hornady 460's for the next time we go to the range. We fill the gun with the Hornady 460 with witnesses around. We are at the outdoor pistol range and I shoot it once (about all I can handle) and hand it over to my son. He shoots the rest (4 rounds) and comes back to the table. We were in disbelief when we saw this hole in the barrel.










We tried to figure out when it happen and asked the others if every blast they heard from the gun was the same and all said the same. No difference. I have heard a squib before and was able to tell the person to ceasefire and I have seen pictures of gun blown up by a squib but never saw this before and each fired round was the same. With a 460 it is hard not to notice. Now I hit the target that was 20 feet away and my son did not hit a thing. He is an outstanding shooter much better than me so I think it happen when I shot it.
I send it back to S&W stating what happen and that I'm afraid to shoot that gun again. I was hoping that they would send me a new once with an apology for all the hassle that gun put me through.

Now they want me to pay over 300 dollars. I'm getting ready to call them but want to get advice and cool down from my anger. If I pay to have it fixed I end up with a gun I'm afraid to shoot and one I would not sell to others because of the history of the gun.

I want a brand new one. If they won't then I want to ask for my pistol back and post on a website that I will put together what I have been through with this pistol with pictures. I also will rent a table at the gun shows here in NE Texas to show off the gun and tell my story. I have plenty of time on my hands. Also I will be posting on all the gun forum I know and that right there is over a million people. I will be out of 1100 dollars but what the Hell. I don't know if I can take them to small claims but if I can I will. I refuse to use a lawyer because I have paid over 100k to them last year for services (business related)

What would you do in if you were in my place?

Would you want the pistol with the history it has??

Would you sell it to a friend and not tell them the history?

PS I might be selling all my S&W but don't let that get in your way on giving me advice.

I hit the edit button I can't tell you how mad I am. Right now I own 11 S&W firearms and over the years have bought close to 40 and I have given away to close friends 8 S&W firearms and they treat you like dirt.


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## James NM (Jan 4, 2007)

Two questions:

1). What is the reason S&W gives for you having to pay over $300.00?

2). Is your 460 a Performance Center?


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

James NM said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1). What is the reason S&W gives for you having to pay over $300.00?
> 
> 2). Is your 460 a Performance Center?


I will be calling them tomorrow. The gunsmith at Gander Mtn tells me it's all on computer. He said he has an option to click, yes or no. The question is does the customer want it fix for this amount. He can't believe they are charging me with the history of the gun and he's the one who sold me the ammo and no complaints on any of the ammo. It's not a performance model. It's a XVR model. One more question and I'll add it to my post.

Would you want the pistol with the history it has??


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## big dutchman (Jan 9, 2007)

wow, i have never seen anything like that before. i am a big fan of the s&w revolvers, but i have to say that i am really dissapointed that they are not jumping all over this issue. i haven't ever had a reason to contact them myself, but people i know of that have had to in the past, and they tell me that s&w are top notch in customer service and response. i don't think that i would be comfortable shooting that revolver again, even after it's fixed. supposedly they check and fire multiple rounds through every 460 prior to shipping. i don't know how this could have gotten through their system then. perhaps you could try to contact s&w yourself. i haven't been real impressed with gander mountain in the past. maybe you could get a better answer straight from the company?


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

big dutchman said:


> wow, i have never seen anything like that before. i am a big fan of the s&w revolvers, but i have to say that i am really dissapointed that they are not jumping all over this issue. i haven't ever had a reason to contact them myself, but people i know of that have had to in the past, and they tell me that s&w are top notch in customer service and response. i don't think that i would be comfortable shooting that revolver again, even after it's fixed. supposedly they check and fire multiple rounds through every 460 prior to shipping. i don't know how this could have gotten through their system then. perhaps you could try to contact s&w yourself. i haven't been real impressed with gander mountain in the past. maybe you could get a better answer straight from the company?


Good idea if all fails I'll see if Gander Mtn corp can help. The gunsmith and sales guy's can't believe S&W is charging me. A couple of them who saw the gun when I brought it in said they were not going to sell them after seeing it. Wait until I take it to a gun show if it goes that far. It was a lemon from the start.


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## James NM (Jan 4, 2007)

I also think you should contact S&W directly. Sounds like to me Gander is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Smith will send you out a UPS shipping label to pay the freight. Include a note telling them the history and your concern about shooting the gun again. Wouldn't hurt to mention the 40 some odd other S&W guns you've purchased & been happy with. I believe Smith will make it right.

I've only had to send back one gun to Smith, and I was very pleased with the experience.

Keep us posted.


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## bigdave (Jun 12, 2007)

Just in the nick of time. This is my first post on this forum; I’ve been on Glocktalk for some time now. My wife went with me today to take a look at a s n w xvr at doc’s guns. I was hoping to find some info on them here. The owner told me they had a recall but not to worry. He has it on sale for $850.00. My wife gave me the go ahead for father’s day. I’m going to put it on hold until I hear what happens to you. Good luck.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

S&W was having some barrel issues with the 460 performance center verision. I think I would deal with S&W direct on this one. I think you got a problem with the retail store. Be calm and cool till you give them a chance to work this out for you. There's plenty of time to protest later. Write down all your information like ammo and lot number sales receipt and anything else you can come up with. I don't think S&W would want that gun out in the public and I think GM is tring to make a buck on you. Good luck.


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## Revolver (Aug 26, 2006)

bigdave said:


> Just in the nick of time. This is my first post on this forum; I've been on Glocktalk for some time now. My wife went with me today to take a look at a s n w xvr at doc's guns. I was hoping to find some info on them here. The owner told me they had a recall but not to worry. He has it on sale for $850.00. My wife gave me the go ahead for father's day. I'm going to put it on hold until I hear what happens to you. Good luck.


Give the Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull a serious look before you buy.

Spacedoggy, that really doesn't surprise me. PC S&W's have been having serious barrel issues the past few years.


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## Rob P. (Jun 7, 2007)

spacedoggy said:


> What would you do if you bought a new S&W 460 revolver... You shoot two boxes of Hornady 460's *a box of 454's* and *a box of 45 long colts*.


Question (cuz I'm not that familiar with this caliber): Do all these different calibers actually FIT this weapon? If so, then I learn something and this is a non-issue. If not, then there's where your problem started.



> The whole time you would shoot it, it would miss fire every 8th round or so, ... [we] send it to Smith and Wesson. They replace the hammer and Cylinder and state the timing was off.


Ok, so S&W has had the weapon in their hot & grubbies at least once before and they failed to see a problem with the barrel. However, this could be good for you in the event you want to file a small claims or civil action.



> I send it back to S&W stating what happen and that I'm afraid to shoot that gun again. I was hoping that they would send me a new once with an apology for all the hassle that gun put me through.
> 
> Now they want me to pay over 300 dollars.


Ok, now S&W has the weapon and THEY are the ones who want to charge you for the repair? Or, is it GM who wants to charge you?

Seems odd to me that a new weapon which malfunctions, is repaired under the warranty, and when it immediately malfunctions again it is, or should be, still under warranty.

There should be no charge for this repair BUT it will depend on the assessment from S&W on what/who caused the damage. THIS will be important as to determine who pays.

Perhaps the test fire by the gunsmith was done behind a squib? Prior to that you hadn't noticed any blowback yet HE was the one who mentioned it. If so, the GM _may_ be responsible for the repair costs.

The metalurgy may have been defective. If so, then S&W pays.

You may wind up being responsible for the costs if you cannot prove that it was not YOU or your son who damaged the weapon.

I would not be afraid to use the weapon after it was repaired PROVIDED that I received a certificate of some sort from S&W stating that the weapon was checked and that all systems and components were within spec. AND it had been test fired more than once by S&W prior to such certification. I may use a test stand for the first several rounds and then have the weapon checked by a DIFFERENT 'smith than the one at GM but I would not be afraid of it. Prudence is not fear.

I could not sell the weapon unless I had personally fired it several times after the repair. You will also have to disclose the repair/defect issue to the buyer no matter what.

My 2 centavos.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

Rob P. this is all on S&W and they are the ones wanting to charge me. The guy's at Gander can't believe it and a few told me they will talk people out of them. Yes it does shoot all 3 rounds that's why I bought it. The 460 is to much for me and if they send me a new one all I'll shoot is 454's out of it. I'm getting ready to call them now.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

Don't know where to start. I talked with the gunsmith at Gander mtn and he said that he believes the gun to be defective and remembers S&W calling him stating that they can't tell what happen and they are going to send the gun to upper management. I called S&W and gave my order number to the customer service rep who was very nice. I told him my complete story after he told me that S&W said it was a squib and I have to pay so I asked to speak with management. Told her my story and she inter upped and seemed like she was reading a script. Over and over again how they have the experience of so many years and how the warranty works and she said it was Hornady's fault. She kept saying how it is test fired before leaving. I then ask how did it get through the first time. I asked her if 300 hundred dollar was worth losing a life time customer and she could care less. I told her my plans that I will tell my story on the web and at gun shows and she said go ahead. Well I'm finished with S&W and for good reason. I told her to have it sent back in the same condition. I already sold my P99c to a guy who lives 3 house down and his brother is buying my 357. I'm looking forward to buying some Rugers. I'm selling these guns so that these people will not buy new ones. I know I'm not going to make a difference but I refuse to have anything S&W in my home.

I can see looking at the gun that it looks like a squib but everyone one who heard the gun go off said they did not hear any difference with any of the 5 rounds shot. That's why I think it must have been some kind of defect. It was hard to pull back the hammer and my son told me each time he fired it got harder. When we got it to Gander it was really hard. What caused that. I know S&W comes out with some great guns but beware.


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## Rob P. (Jun 7, 2007)

Something I just thought of....

Have S&W ship the weapon back to you as-is. Take the weapon to a different gunsmith and ask that the barrel bore and forcing cone be checked for proper diameter/size. Also ask him to check the cylinder timing too.

The reason I bring this up is that the gun already had a timing problem once. IF, (and it's a big IF), the timing was still incorrect then the weapon could be shaving & depositing bullet fragments/lead at the forcing cone ahead of the cylinder. If it builds up enough it could make it harder and harder to operate. It could also possibly cause a failure in the barrel by causing the bullet to try to jam or get stuck from the deflection after hitting the forcing cone edge. Bullets aren't meant to travel sideways down the barrel.

The weapon could also do this if the barrel bore diameter is incorrect for the chambering size. Essentially the bullets would be too big and the pressures would be enormous until there is a failure of some part. Possibly the barrel, possibly the frame or cylinder. Again, this could also cause the hard revolver operation which increases in difficulty with each round fired due to depositing of bullet material between the forcing cone and the cylinder.

I would have an independent gunsmith check EVERYTHING to verify that the weapon is correctly manufactured. If it is, then the blame lies with either you, the gunsmith at Gander Mountain, or the ammo manufacturer. Tell the 'smith you do not care what the results are just that they be hard facts and numbers/specs that can be backed up and verified. This eliminates the possiblity that your "expert" will tell you what you want to hear because you are the one paying for it. You want verifiable facts not his personal opinion that things should be different than the mfg's specs "because its better".

Also, until you can verify that the weapon is incorrect, then you cannot blame S&W for the failure. You may believe the weapon to be defective but you cannot PROVE it. Without proof all you have is your opinion and there are too many other possibilites which cannot be eliminated (like there really was a squib fired by someone other than yourself who did not recognize it).


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

Rob P. said:


> Something I just thought of....
> 
> Have S&W ship the weapon back to you as-is. Take the weapon to a different gunsmith and ask that the barrel bore and forcing cone be checked for proper diameter/size. Also ask him to check the cylinder timing too.
> 
> ...


WOW I can't thank you enough for your advice. It seems really sound and I will pursue it. I'm also going to write Gander Mtn. and Hornady with my story and ask them for advise. I do not hold them responsible even with S&W telling me it's Hornady's problem. Each shot sounded the same, if it didn't I would be going after Hornady. I think what bothers me the most is S&W additude. I know they come out with some of the best gun's in the world so I'm sure they could care less what happens to me.


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## mvslay (May 6, 2007)

In the upcoming year I plan to buy at least 2 new revolvers. It's good to know I can scratch off at least one mfg.


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## mikemck (Jun 5, 2007)

To me, that looks like a squib, and I would not expect S&W to pay if I did that to a gun.
Yes, I know you say all the shots sounded the same, but can you say for 100% sure there were no squibs? You say your son shot the gun 4 times and did not hit anything, so how can you know none of those were squibs?

I understand your frustration, but I can also understand S&W not tripping over themselves to repair a gun that looks like a squib blew a hole in the barrel.

Just my thoughts on the matter...


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## SigZagger (Aug 16, 2006)

I won't comment on a possible cause because I do not know for sure. But I can tell you my personal experience dealing with gun issues and S&W. In short, I wrote letters last fall directly to the president (very professionally written and reasonable I might add), quality control and newly hired Julie Goloski, the new production rep. I NEVER heard a word from any one of those persons. I traded away my S&W handguns and switched to SigSauer. Screw 'em. I feel we individual handgun owners are simply that...one small little lonely gun owner. If the military or a police agency had serious issues with them, they would correct it immediately. You know those serial numbers on your S&W guns...that's all you are to them, a number. I do hope you get the barrel repaired. If not, your plan to set up a booth at the gun show seems reasonable.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

mikemck said:


> To me, that looks like a squib, and I would not expect S&W to pay if I did that to a gun.
> Yes, I know you say all the shots sounded the same, but can you say for 100% sure there were no squibs? You say your son shot the gun 4 times and did not hit anything, so how can you know none of those were squibs?
> 
> I understand your frustration, but I can also understand S&W not tripping over themselves to repair a gun that looks like a squib blew a hole in the barrel.
> ...


My first thought too but I asked everyone their if they heard any differants in sound and when you shoot these guns believe me everyone knows. Everyone agreed. I'm not a hundred percent sure it wasn't but the history of the gun tells me it probably wasn't. The gun smith at Gander Mtn doesn't think so. The trigger was really hard to pull back. I asked for the pistol back the way it was. Well they fixed that problem and who knows what else. When they got the gun they called the gunsmith and asked him what happen to it and he told him that we shot Hornady ammo through it. The guy at S&W said that he was going to send this one up to upper management. Now why would they do that. The gun was not right when we got it and they had to replace the hammer and Cylinder and state the timing was off. We get it back and it blows up the first five shots. 
They said they would replace the barrel for 350. Would any of you trust this gun what use 460 round. squib or no squib they should of given me a new one. They even had to question that by sending the gun up to upper management. I post some new picture. I'll be right back.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

new picks I'll get better ones when my son gets home. Looking forward to showing this at this weekends gun show in Tyler


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

One more thing. I could have had them fix it a sell it. Would you buy it knowing its history. I'm a responsible gun owner and I would never sell this gun fixed to anyone.

If you want to tell S&W what you think about this, this is a email I found on their site. They will tell you that it's a squid caused by the ammunition and it's their policy.

[email protected]

If you agree to the following you can cut and paste.

Why was this gun sent up to upper management by your gunsmiths?

How did this gun get through your quality control before leaving the plant the first time?

This person has been a very good customer and has over 10 S&W firearms in his collection and over the years bought at least 40 from you and what he has been through with this firearm and he's afraid to shoot it even if you fixed it, why would you not replace it with a new one?

http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?p=73750&posted=1#post73750


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

What a great way to meet people. I took it to the gun show this weekend and I can't tell you how many people that gun attracted. Even a number of dealers were dismayed with S&W. I thought I might talk one or two people out of buying the gun and I think the number was close to 20. I think a few of them were BSing me. Most of them were going for the 500 and it's basically the same gun. I now have 3 new shooting buddies and got 5 people to join my range. I think I'll keep this gun forever. Every gun show I go to from now on I will be wearing this around my neck so people see it. A few said they were going to email S&W but I might just use the thing to get people to join the range I shoot at.


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## mikemck (Jun 5, 2007)

Wow, those new pics are bizarre. Maybe not a squib after all.

Barrel does not appear bulged, just blown completely out!

I would have to agree, from what I have read and now seen, S&W should replace that gun under warranty. Until now, I had heard/read nothing buy great things about S&W CS, but sounds like they really dropped the ball on this.

I would never trust that gun again, or even another in that caliber. Just too much potential for something even more destruction in that caliber. Would induce a serious flinch every time I pulled the trigger, wondering what might happen.

Thanks for those pics.


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