# INTERESTING - Different Kahr issues, have you ever seen this??



## NickFox

I am going to try at all costs to AVOID this becoming the "typical" Kahr post. 1) It is NOT a bash - these are valid points AND I have un-resolved issues. That said, I REALLY dig the form factor on the Kahr, and it's no-contest between G27 and CW40 for CCW. NO DOUBT. I'm brand new to the forum, but NOT new at all the handguns, and I like alot of the insight I've read in other posts, and thusly, decided to post this.

OK - so to begin, I bought a like-new CW40, so new that you could not see use, and internally, thing looked pristine- right down to the springs. Took down 100% to verify. On first trip to range, had a few FTF (*round kinda got "hung up" between the slide and face of the chamber when slide returned home). I polished all of barrel face, and this has 100% resolved any feeding issues, or so it seems. 550 rounds and counting...

BUT - Here's a serious issue, and it's frustrating the crap out of me. The slide occasionally ceases at the DEAD-STOP. This is completely on back-action. Happens in last (approx.) 1/8th inch of travel, AFTER the slide-stop catch-point. Usually a hand-slap is NOT enough, you need to remove mag, and then give the butt of the slide a good rap on a hard surface. she slams home and will then fire. Happens totally random, and has occurred with ALL of the following ammo:
Hydra Shock
Federal Premium
Winchester white box 
Atlantic cheapo range stuff

2) the 2nd time the ceasure happened, coincidentally (maybe) the follower-front cracked, in the typically spot that happens on PM40s (so I'm told by kahr). Again this is a CW model - Kahr says they've not seen breakages like this on CWs, only on older PM models..

FIRST: I do want to say, I called Kahr twice. The first time I was VERY upset - I did not get the warm and fuzzies from the service person, and honestly was AT THAT POINT very dissapointed with my purchase. I am a manufacturers rep - PRODUCTS BREAK. I get that. However I DO want to be dealing with a company that gives a Flying F and will want to service me and make me feel GOOD about purchasing. Sadly, this did not happen the first time around..

GOOD NEWS: Second time around I spoke to a VERY friendly and knowlegable service person, and feel MUCH better about buying the weapon. They were perplexed by the ceasure issue- I don't know if I believe them on this point, but they say they've not seen that... Again, I'm a manuf-rep... Not sure if I believe or not... BUT - I am very happy with the outcome:

Kahr is sending a new return spring, and a mag follower. I'll re-post once spring is installed... Who knows.. maybe it say so long it got lazy, and thus the ceasing issue.. dunno. Kahr seems to think this may resolve. Hope so...

QUESTIONS: 

- Anyone ever had this happen?? any of it??

- Has anyone figured out a magic solution to shorten trigger reset yet?? 

- Has anyone ever tried the "O-ring" trick as a recoil buffer on a CW pistol?? Seems to me like that might do two things: 1) act as a great snap-buffer, 2) actually REDUCE travel by a tiny amount, such that slide would not hang up or "seize"

COMMENTARY: 

Again, this is NOT a flame post. In short, I REALLY REALLY dig the tiny size of the CW40.. ALSO, did anyone stop to check out comparative barrel lengths?? this is a VERY serious advantage to the Karh, IMHO (pertaining to accuracy) and despite reading hundreds o user reviews, NO ONE has yet to compare (meaningfully) the barrel length:

Specifically, let's compare a Glock 27 (compact .40) to the Kahr CW40 (one model BIGGER than compact)... The CW40 is not only ALOT thinnner, but 1/8" sharter overall length AND HAS +1/2" WORTH OF BARREL... YES- you read that right. The kahr wins HANDS OWN over the Glock in this department: thinner, shorter AND longer barrel, PLUS the hand-grip gives you secure grip with 4 fingers, rather than 2 or 3.. 

Recoil: I don't know how to explain this, but despite the lack-luster trigger on the Karh, is DOES somehow not feel quite as "snappy" as my glock.. Either way, recoil doesn't bother me on either, and I'm a fan on .40 cal. Eventually I will buy a .45 though, for reasons we've all read about... this will be ADDED to collection, NOT to replace the kahr .40.. 

Curious to know if anyone's had this seizing problem. thanks for your responses and thoughts.

In conclusion, I really like BOTH Kahr and Glock. If I needed higher capacity etc, I'd carry the glock, despite the extra chunkiness. 95% of the times though, I'm more concerned for UC duty-carry, and rely on the tiny diminutive size of the Kahrs, vs. the glocks. Despite the hiccups, I must say, there IS no other choice out there for tiny/reliable. ALL small-small pistols have tighter tolerances, and ergo, perhaps the reason there are MANY negative posts about MANY different brands of micro/compact. That said, I wouldn't carry a Kimber nor a PPK, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna bet my life on a Kel-tec 9mm... lol. For me, Glock is still my favorite.. however for CCW duty, the CW frame is VERY hard to beat- it's smaller AND has a longer barrel and more secure-feeling hand swell.
Now I just need to make it as reliable as the Glock, and I'll deal with the trigger...


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## shaddaddy

NickFox said:


> I am going to try at all costs to AVOID this becoming the "typical" Kahr post. 1) It is NOT a bash - these are valid points AND I have un-resolved issues. That said, I REALLY dig the form factor on the Kahr, and it's no-contest between G27 and CW40 for CCW. NO DOUBT. I'm brand new to the forum, but NOT new at all the handguns, and I like alot of the insight I've read in other posts, and thusly, decided to post this.
> 
> OK - so to begin, I bought a like-new CW40, so new that you could not see use, and internally, thing looked pristine- right down to the springs. Took down 100% to verify. On first trip to range, had a few FTF (*round kinda got "hung up" between the slide and face of the chamber when slide returned home). I polished all of barrel face, and this has 100% resolved any feeding issues, or so it seems. 550 rounds and counting...
> 
> BUT - Here's a serious issue, and it's frustrating the crap out of me. The slide occasionally ceases at the DEAD-STOP. This is completely on back-action. Happens in last (approx.) 1/8th inch of travel, AFTER the slide-stop catch-point. Usually a hand-slap is NOT enough, you need to remove mag, and then give the butt of the slide a good rap on a hard surface. she slams home and will then fire. Happens totally random, and has occurred with ALL of the following ammo:
> Hydra Shock
> Federal Premium
> Winchester white box
> Atlantic cheapo range stuff
> 
> 2) the 2nd time the ceasure happened, coincidentally (maybe) the follower-front cracked, in the typically spot that happens on PM40s (so I'm told by kahr). Again this is a CW model - Kahr says they've not seen breakages like this on CWs, only on older PM models..
> 
> FIRST: I do want to say, I called Kahr twice. The first time I was VERY upset - I did not get the warm and fuzzies from the service person, and honestly was AT THAT POINT very dissapointed with my purchase. I am a manufacturers rep - PRODUCTS BREAK. I get that. However I DO want to be dealing with a company that gives a Flying F and will want to service me and make me feel GOOD about purchasing. Sadly, this did not happen the first time around..
> 
> GOOD NEWS: Second time around I spoke to a VERY friendly and knowlegable service person, and feel MUCH better about buying the weapon. They were perplexed by the ceasure issue- I don't know if I believe them on this point, but they say they've not seen that... Again, I'm a manuf-rep... Not sure if I believe or not... BUT - I am very happy with the outcome:
> 
> Kahr is sending a new return spring, and a mag follower. I'll re-post once spring is installed... Who knows.. maybe it say so long it got lazy, and thus the ceasing issue.. dunno. Kahr seems to think this may resolve. Hope so...
> 
> QUESTIONS:
> 
> - Anyone ever had this happen?? any of it??
> 
> - Has anyone figured out a magic solution to shorten trigger reset yet??
> 
> - Has anyone ever tried the "O-ring" trick as a recoil buffer on a CW pistol?? Seems to me like that might do two things: 1) act as a great snap-buffer, 2) actually REDUCE travel by a tiny amount, such that slide would not hang up or "seize"
> 
> COMMENTARY:
> 
> Again, this is NOT a flame post. In short, I REALLY REALLY dig the tiny size of the CW40.. ALSO, did anyone stop to check out comparative barrel lengths?? this is a VERY serious advantage to the Karh, IMHO (pertaining to accuracy) and despite reading hundreds o user reviews, NO ONE has yet to compare (meaningfully) the barrel length:
> 
> Specifically, let's compare a Glock 27 (compact .40) to the Kahr CW40 (one model BIGGER than compact)... The CW40 is not only ALOT thinnner, but 1/8" sharter overall length AND HAS +1/2" WORTH OF BARREL... YES- you read that right. The kahr wins HANDS OWN over the Glock in this department: thinner, shorter AND longer barrel, PLUS the hand-grip gives you secure grip with 4 fingers, rather than 2 or 3..
> 
> Recoil: I don't know how to explain this, but despite the lack-luster trigger on the Karh, is DOES somehow not feel quite as "snappy" as my glock.. Either way, recoil doesn't bother me on either, and I'm a fan on .40 cal. Eventually I will buy a .45 though, for reasons we've all read about... this will be ADDED to collection, NOT to replace the kahr .40..
> 
> Curious to know if anyone's had this seizing problem. thanks for your responses and thoughts.
> 
> In conclusion, I really like BOTH Kahr and Glock. If I needed higher capacity etc, I'd carry the glock, despite the extra chunkiness. 95% of the times though, I'm more concerned for UC duty-carry, and rely on the tiny diminutive size of the Kahrs, vs. the glocks. Despite the hiccups, I must say, there IS no other choice out there for tiny/reliable. ALL small-small pistols have tighter tolerances, and ergo, perhaps the reason there are MANY negative posts about MANY different brands of micro/compact. That said, I wouldn't carry a Kimber nor a PPK, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna bet my life on a Kel-tec 9mm... lol. For me, Glock is still my favorite.. however for CCW duty, the CW frame is VERY hard to beat- it's smaller AND has a longer barrel and more secure-feeling hand swell.
> Now I just need to make it as reliable as the Glock, and I'll deal with the trigger...


Sorry I dont have specific answer to the problem u r having - but I am having similar issue with Kahr customer service -- also kinda curious why everyone seems to think someone is a "basher" or a "flamer" when someone mentions a problem with ANY gun -- it seems we have to write a book to explain why we are not bashing the company. Most people report negatives - primarily those looking for answers ! - Am I the only one who thinks this way ???


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## Shipwreck

I've never had issues with my Kahr 9mm. Only contact I had with the company was to order a new slide stop, because the finish on my original got scratched up. Mine has been 100%. If those parts don't fix it, I would suggest you call back and send it in.

As to the trigger, that's just the design of the weapon. I see all sorts of "kits for Glocks, M&Ps and XDs. I do not recall seeing any trigger mod for a Kahr. Sorry.


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## EliWolfe

There are people who have "never had a problem" with their Ket-Tec .32, and there are people who have had problems with "troublefree" Glocks. Until the magic day comes when they finally figure out how to mass produce a machine that can handle the demands of feeding, firing, extracting, and ejecting PERFECTLY, well, that's why I really like revolvers (yeah, I have had one with timing issues). The web is chock full of "problem" semis, yet each case seems to be a surprise to the owner. Semi automatics have been shown over and over again to be prone to odd performance issues, methinks it is the nature of the beasty. By the way, I've had rhe PM9 and Glock 26/27. They were all "flawless" shooters out of the box!
Eli :smt083


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## zhurdan

EliWolfe said:


> There are people who have "never had a problem" with their Ket-Tec .32, and there are people who have had problems with "troublefree" Glocks. *Until the magic day comes when they finally figure out how to mass produce a machine that can handle the demands of feeding, firing, extracting, and ejecting PERFECTLY,* well, that's why I really like revolvers (yeah, I have had one with timing issues). The web is chock full of "problem" semis, yet each case seems to be a surprise to the owner. Semi automatics have been shown over and over again to be prone to odd performance issues, methinks it is the nature of the beasty. By the way, I've had rhe PM9 and Glock 26/27. They were all "flawless" shooters out of the box!
> Eli :smt083


I'm pretty sure they call them HK's. :mrgreen:


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## EliWolfe

zhurdan said:


> I'm pretty sure they call them HK's. :mrgreen:


So I've heard. Just never got around to buying one which is pretty odd for me. My longtime gunstore bud swears by them. 
Eli :mrgreen:


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## jimkimmons

I first purchased the Kahr CW 40 for the very carry reasons you mention. It's a joy to carry. However, after appropriate suggested break-in, I was still having premature lockback issues with rounds still in the mag. I ordered another slide lockback spring, and then another and the screw that mounts it, and the slide stop and replaced them. I had fewer problems, and at about 1000 rounds through it, I found that one of my three factory new magazines seemed to be part or all of the problem. I now consider the gun reliable enough to carry, but I also have a Glock 27 which I carry at times. It's just not as much fun in the vest or IWB holster.


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## gb6491

zhurdan said:


> I'm pretty sure they call them HK's. :mrgreen:


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## guitargeak99

NickFox said:


> BUT - Here's a serious issue, and it's frustrating the crap out of me. The slide occasionally ceases at the DEAD-STOP. This is completely on back-action. Happens in last (approx.) 1/8th inch of travel, AFTER the slide-stop catch-point. Usually a hand-slap is NOT enough, you need to remove mag, and then give the butt of the slide a good rap on a hard surface. she slams home and will then fire. Happens totally random,


This exact thing has happened on my PM40. I have only about 150 rounds thru it and it has locked back once, past the slide-stop. After break-in this will be a CCW..., and I'm not feeling to good about this. I was somehow hoping that this was a "before break-in" issue, but I've never had a pistol do this. Other than that I like this gun. I'll notify Kahr CS tomorrow, and continue to shoot it.


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## zhurdan

gb6491 said:


>


L I M P W R I S T I N G!!!

It's not the gun. I've shot at least 10 different HK USP's and have never had a problem.. I'd bet a $100 bucks that if I shot his pistol, it'd run like a raped ape. Watch how much recoil he's experiencing. That's not normal for a 45 unless you are a vagina pants. Seriously... If I can keep a .357 Sig on target, rapid fire... (which has more recoil impulse), he's just not doing it right.


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## gb6491

zhurdan said:


> L I M P W R I S T I N G!!!
> 
> It's not the gun. I've shot at least 10 different HK USP's and have never had a problem.. I'd bet a $100 bucks that if I shot his pistol, it'd run like a raped ape. Watch how much recoil he's experiencing. That's not normal for a 45 unless you are a vagina pants. Seriously... If I can keep a .357 Sig on target, rapid fire... (which has more recoil impulse), he's just not doing it right.


So we know for sure that at least 10 HK USPs will work:watching::smt083..........all kidding aside, I tend to agree with you; I imagine that improper technique is behind many a complaint about lightweight semi autos.


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## HadEmAll

Nick,

Did the spring fix your problem? I would hope you'd come back and let people know. That's how these forums help. Anyway, since you haven't posted, I'm going to do a little ranting and raving about Kahr related issues.

First, a little background. I've had a K40 for 11 years, a CW40 for 3 years, and have acquired a PM40, PM9, and P380 in the 
last year, so I have some Kahr knowledge to back up what I'm going to say.

I've got Berettas, Brownings, Sigs, Kimbers, S&Ws Rugers, etc, but Kahrs are unique in several ways. Not everything about other pistols can be applied to Kahrs.

You apparently bought a USED CW40. Not necessarily bad, but sometimes when you buy used, you buy somebody else's problem, and that looks like what happened to you. That's probably why it looked pristine as you say.

The only Kahr I had problems with out of mine was the P380. It required me to call Kahr customer service and I can tell you this.......... When you spend as much on a gun as you do on a Kahr, it's natural to want to chew some ass when it doesn't work right. However, IT DOES NO GOOD to chew out the guy who answers the phone at Kahr. He isn't the guy who built it, and he isn't the guy who's going to work on it when it gets back there. Follow me? If you give him that "I spent a lot of money on this POS, and by god I want it work right, you are just creating a pissed off phone answerer. It is counterproductive. You need to count to 10 or whatever works for you, and just discuss the problem. He has heard it all, and may have dealt with other irate callers in before you that day.

I have literally had steam coming out of my ears because I was so pissed off about my P380's problems THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN BACK TO THEM ONCE, that I had a very hard time keeping a civil tongue in my head the second time I had to call them, but again, I realize that they guy on the phone was not responsible for either the manufacturing flaw, or the botched repair.

They are getting P380s back for the 2nd and 3rd time. So they are dealing with some pretty pissed off people.

Talking nice can get you prepaid shipping, parts, or better service. That's all I can say about that.

Now for the guys blaming the slide lockbacks mid magazine on the user, that's possible, but there are plenty of documented cases (especially in P380s and PM9s) of poorly manufactured slidestops that need some material removed to keep it from contacting the bullet noses. 
The best way to tell is remove the slide, reinsert the slidestop, and insert a loaded magazine. Watch the bullet nose on it's path past the inside portion of the slidestop, and you can see whether it might be an issue with yours. Some do it themselves, some get a new slidestop from Kahr, and some send them back. It appears to be more common with the larger bullets, the 102 grain Rems in .380, the 124's and 147's in the PM9. So don't automatically assume its you hitting the slidestop, or limp-wristing. It may be, but if paying attention to that doesn't work, check the slidestop. If you just call Kahr and tell them your pistol is locking the slide back mid-magazine, and nothing else, they are going to assume it's you. It helps to be prepared to tell them (nicely) that it is not you, its probably the slidestop.

They are cranking the PM9 and P380 out like hotcakes, and quality control has slipped a little. I fixed my PM9 myself.

Now that I've done all this spouting off, I realize that I have no guess as to a solution for your original problem. I'd guess a frame problem, but will wait until I see if you even read this before discussing it further.

One last rant. When the K9 and the other Kahrs came out 11 or 12 years ago, the trigger was what everybody raved about. It was like a double-action revolver with no stacking. Safe, smooth, and once you master it, capable of very nice accuracy. No safeties to fumble with. It's part of what put them on the map, and a large part of what made their product a premium product over the Keltecs with their 25 pound trigger pulls.

Fast forward to today. I am irked when I see people new to Kahr complaining about the Kahr trigger as too long, lackluster, blah, blah, blah. Why did you buy it? The trigger is what it is, a KAHR trigger. Long, soft, and smooth.


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## jakeleinen1

zhurdan said:


> L I M P W R I S T I N G!!!


Nice catch Zhurdan!!! That dude is limp wristing the shit out of that HK

There exists pistols that are reliable, alot of folks need to stop trying to defend their tinker jamming pistols by calling out QUALITY brands that have proven reliability.


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## zhurdan

Yeah, it always surprises me when people blame a fantastic brand of pistol for it's bad functioning. I like how he said they were full power loads, not the powderpuff that Todd Jarrett uses. Laughable.

Here's some full power loads, and I don't seem to have that problem. Hmmmm. Anyone still think it's the gun? Hehehe


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## jakeleinen1

^ is that you shooting... Sweet video!


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## zhurdan

Yup. That's little old me. There's another one with a 357sig on my youtube page.


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## johej

zhurdan said:


> L I M P W R I S T I N G!!!
> 
> It's not the gun. I've shot at least 10 different HK USP's and have never had a problem.. I'd bet a $100 bucks that if I shot his pistol, it'd run like a raped ape. Watch how much recoil he's experiencing. That's not normal for a 45 unless you are a vagina pants. Seriously... If I can keep a .357 Sig on target, rapid fire... (which has more recoil impulse), he's just not doing it right.


About limpwristing.

If the gun will not work with a limp wrist it is crap AND the manual should state:

This gun will not function if:
1) you become wounded and experience loss of strength 
2) you get shot in you right arm and is forced to use your left arm
3) you get shot and your wife or kid needs to pick up the gun and defend you
4) you get in a shooting and things get messy and stressful and you get the grip of the gun slightly wrong

In fact, dont buy this gun at all, because it might not work when you need it to save your life


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## zhurdan

johej said:


> About limpwristing.
> 
> If the gun will not work with a limp wrist it is crap AND the manual should state:
> 
> This gun will not function if:
> 1) you become wounded and experience loss of strength
> 2) you get shot in you right arm and is forced to use your left arm
> 3) you get shot and your wife or kid needs to pick up the gun and defend you
> 4) you get in a shooting and things get messy and stressful and you get the grip of the gun slightly wrong
> 
> In fact, dont buy this gun at all, because it might not work when you need it to save your life


Hilarious. Should they also make sure to let people who buy hammers know that if they don't hold it firmly that it sucks because they aren't using the tool correctly? The whole principle of recoil in semi-automatic handguns is for the pistol to have something to recoil against. aka a firm grip.

Whenever I hear about a gun, especially one from a quality manufacturer, that doesn't "work", I'd put money on it being the shooter 9 times out of 10 rather than the actual gun having an issue. Sure, there are lemons out there, but I've personally fired weapons that other people say are junk (HK's, Glocks, 1911's, even a highpoint for hells sake) and they seem to work just fine for me. Imagine that, you change one variable and they work. What was the variable? The SHOOTER.

Use a tool how it's intended to be used. If you plan on limpwristing your gun, you might as well carry a hammer instead.

As to your examples, they are part of what _can_ happen in a gun fight, not what causes the gun to malfunction on a square range. Number 4 is especially wrong. If you practice enough, you have a much higher probability of getting it right than you do of getting it wrong. Train to the best not the worst.

ETA: I'd almost forgotten about this video that I filmed for the express purpose of showing people that recoil can be mitigated with a USP .45 with the proper stance and grip. It's just amazing that I can keep it from jumping all over the place... AMAZING. hehe


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## recoilguy

johej said:


> About limpwristing.
> 
> If the gun will not work with a limp wrist it is crap AND the manual should state:
> 
> This gun will not function if:
> 1) you become wounded and experience loss of strength
> 2) you get shot in you right arm and is forced to use your left arm
> 3) you get shot and your wife or kid needs to pick up the gun and defend you
> 4) you get in a shooting and things get messy and stressful and you get the grip of the gun slightly wrong
> 
> In fact, dont buy this gun at all, because it might not work when you need it to save your life


Thank you for joining the forum. This is a quality first post!

RCG


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## johej

zhurdan said:


> Hilarious. Should they also make sure to let people who buy hammers know that if they don't hold it firmly that it sucks because they aren't using the tool correctly? The whole principle of recoil in semi-automatic handguns is for the pistol to have something to recoil against. aka a firm grip.
> 
> Whenever I hear about a gun, especially one from a quality manufacturer, that doesn't "work", I'd put money on it being the shooter 9 times out of 10 rather than the actual gun having an issue. Sure, there are lemons out there, but I've personally fired weapons that other people say are junk (HK's, Glocks, 1911's, even a highpoint for hells sake) and they seem to work just fine for me. Imagine that, you change one variable and they work. What was the variable? The SHOOTER.
> 
> Use a tool how it's intended to be used. If you plan on limpwristing your gun, you might as well carry a hammer instead.
> 
> As to your examples, they are part of what _can_ happen in a gun fight, not what causes the gun to malfunction on a square range. Number 4 is especially wrong. If you practice enough, you have a much higher probability of getting it right than you do of getting it wrong. Train to the best not the worst.
> 
> ETA: I'd almost forgotten about this video that I filmed for the express purpose of showing people that recoil can be mitigated with a USP .45 with the proper stance and grip. It's just amazing that I can keep it from jumping all over the place... AMAZING. hehe


Sure. Hammering in a nail with a limp wrist might not work so well.

But a gun should reload no matter how loose you hold it.
Even if you place the gun on the floor, ejection port upwards, press the trigger with your index finger while your thumb is behind the grip, the gun should reload.

Im talking about the gun to function regardless of how it is held. Not the proper technique to hold the gun.

You might be too hilarious too see the difference though.


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## zhurdan

johej said:


> Sure.* Hammering in a nail with a limp wrist might not work so well.*


That's the point. If you are not using a tool properly, it WON'T work properly.



> But a gun should reload no matter how loose you hold it.
> *Even if you place the gun on the floor, ejection port upwards, press the trigger with your index finger while your thumb is behind the grip, the gun should reload.*


This is not how the gun is intended to be used. My point was that the guy in the HK video with all the malfunctions wasn't using the tool correctly. It's no wonder it didn't function.



> Im talking about the gun to function regardless of how it is held. Not the proper technique to hold the gun.


Want a gun that will fire in any position? Shoot a revolver. Want a gun that is specifically designed to use the "recoil" against a solid hold, then hold the dang gun like it's supposed to be held. For a gun to function as intended, it needs to be used as intended. When they make a gun, they don't make it to be shot on the floor with two fingers. Cause and effect.



> You might be too hilarious too see the difference though.


I stand by my "observable" findings. With over 30 years of shooting under my belt and plenty of quality training with quality instructors along with the ability to show the significant difference in recoil management (the other dudes HK vid compared to mine) it stands to reason that the guns function when they are operated properly. Not hilarious at all, actually.

In fact, it's the one thing that bothers me about the gun community. Many people either make excuses or buy parts and pieces to "make" them a better shooter, rather than spending the time and effort to actually BECOME a better shooter. I can't count how many times I've seen people, even on this very forum, say the following things.

1q. "I just bought a XXX and want to know what trigger enhancements are available."
1a. "Have you shot the gun yet to see if it needs a trigger job?"
1q. "No, but it'll be awesomererer."

2q. "I just _ordered_ a XXX and want to change out the xyx..."
2a. "You don't even have the gun yet and you want to change something???"

3q. "Does anyone know where I can find the skeletonized trigger bar? I heard it gives you 0.05seconds faster lock up"
3a. "Do you realize that you probably don't even have the necessary skills to fathom a 0.05second difference in the recoil process? Why do you need it?"

Stuff like that. People either justify their dissatisfaction of a gun by blaming it on the gun or they justify their lack of skill by saying, again, it's the gun and it needs modified.

Please don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to be an ass, but it gets frustrating when people expect the impossible from a gun when it was never designed to operate that way.

BTW, do you know of a gun (semi-auto) that will reliably function in the fashion you described?(on the table, two fingers)? I wouldn't be willing to test it, as it's unbelievably unsafe, but hey, if you wanna try it or already tried it, please let us know.

Shoot safe.
Zhur


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## johej

zhurdan said:


> BTW, do you know of a gun (semi-auto) that will reliably function in the fashion you described?(on the table, two fingers)? I wouldn't be willing to test it, as it's unbelievably unsafe, but hey, if you wanna try it or already tried it, please let us know.
> 
> Zhur


Actually, this test can be performed in a safe way:
Load the gun with one round in the chamber and a emty magazine inserted.
Point the gun downrange, lying at a surface that doesnt scratch the gun.
Fire, using two fingers only.
If it the slide locks back, it would have reloaded properly.

The only reason for a gun to not work with "limpwristing" is if a too hard recoil spring is installed.
A slightly softer recoil spring will allow the gun to function with a less firm wrist.


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## jakeleinen1

johej said:


> About limpwristing.
> 
> If the gun will not work with a limp wrist it is crap AND the manual should state:
> 
> This gun will not function if:
> 1) you become wounded and experience loss of strength
> 2) you get shot in you right arm and is forced to use your left arm
> 3) you get shot and your wife or kid needs to pick up the gun and defend you
> 4) you get in a shooting and things get messy and stressful and you get the grip of the gun slightly wrong
> 
> In fact, dont buy this gun at all, because it might not work when you need it to save your life


I limpwristed my glock 17 when I first got it, and it jammed, never happened again though because I just gripped my gun bad that one time...

So your saying all the law enforcement officers who shoot GLOCKS should return them??? MOST polymer pistols can be limpwristed see video below if you doubt it

Limp Wrist Test - YouTube


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## recoilguy

3 posts now, arguing with someone who knows what he is talking about and verifying your statement with such a ridiculous example. 
I agree with everything zhurdan has said so far. You obviously have come here to provoke a response.....mission accomplished. You loose credibility with each post you make and you are already up to 3.

Enjoy your 2 finger semi auto, what? ....oh you don't have a handgun you just know these things? I see. 

RCG


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## gb6491

jakeleinen1 said:


> Nice catch Zhurdan!!! That dude is limp wristing the shit out of that HK
> 
> There exists pistols that are reliable, alot of folks need to stop trying to defend their tinker jamming pistols by calling out QUALITY brands that have proven reliability.


Who called out a QUALITY brand? If you're referring to my post with the HK video, you missed the point. That being any pistol can jam (even full size HKs) and many times it's caused by operator error; especially in a platform as small as some Kahr pistols. Then people start calling them "tinker jamming pistols" as I imagine the guy in the video does in regards to his HKs.


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## cclaxton

I agree that some level of competency is needed to operate a automatic handgun. But, why shouldn't I expect a personal protection device be easy enough to use in most cases? 
In short, why shouldn't a handgun be expected to work even with limpwristing?
I have the same question about ammo: Why shouldn't we expect all ammo of a particular caliber to work in a modern auto pistol?
Thanks,


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## recoilguy

Why shouldn't a car stop on an icy road before it smashes into a phone pole even if you put on the brakes, why doesn't E85 work in all cars? 

Because machines are influence by outside factors, and some machines are designed only to work properly only under certian conditions. 

If you want a handgun that works when limp wristed buy a nice Ruger revolver. 

The blame for crap ammo not working in all guns or good ammo not working crap guns lies equally in the ammo as in the weapon. The question should be why can't we expect all Ammo manufactures to make ammo of suficent quality to work in all modern guns. True they are not all designed the same nor do they all feed from the same angle have the same size mag wells the same # mag spring . The answer is because then it wouldn't be cheap and people like cheap alot! Cheap ammo works great in Kel Tecs.......with their very loose tolerances and workmanship that barely qualifies as such. However they go bang, they don't weigh much, and they are cheap. So folks will defend them and blame a quality made ammo for not working in a crappy gun. Others spend big bucks on a weapon and buy 8 buck a box aluminum greasy ammo with varied OAL's and visible grease on them and wonder why they won't work in a gun made for quality, consistant ammo. If you want something to work under all conditions you must give up something else. If you buy something designed sopecifically to work under certian condition and they don't work under others, ones objections are not valid and amounts to no more then whinning. Know what you are buying, expect it to work under the circumstances it is created to work under and do not bad mouth what doesn't work under conditions it is not designed to do so. 

RCG


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## cclaxton

First, not badmouthing anything although I have had some problems with Kahrs.

Second, I don't think the analogy of the car stopping on an icy road is a fair analogy. 

We live in an era when technology can be built to overcome user faults and consumable faults. Cadillacs are built to run on 87 gas even though they work better with 93 gas. Cadillacs are built with sensors to ensure they don't run into other cars when parking. 

And, while I agree that some higher end handguns need great ammo and sufficient skills to operate properly, and that makes sense for competition, target, etc. When it comes to defensive use, I would expect an automatic to work when I pull the trigger and no matter what kind of commercially available ammo I put in the magazine. Now maybe it means a revolver is the ONLY handgun that would meet those requirements, but having shot enough automatics, I think that is attainable by autmomatics as well. The Keltecs are perhaps good examples of that. So my question is this: Why can't we expect gun manufacturers to meet those same expectations as long as ammo mfgs meet the minimum requirements? I think its just a matter of good engineering design and good manufacturing.


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## zhurdan

cclaxton,
I guess we could expect that, but you also don't get the accuracy out of a Keltec that you do out of an HK either. Something has to give. Same goes for 1911's that will feed anything, they aren't as accurate.

Personally, if a defensive gun is "minute of man" accurate at 20 feet and it feeds whatever you put in it and doesn't break down every 300 rounds, sounds like a decent gun.

On the flip side, if I do _my_ part as the operator of the gun, and put decent ammo in it, almost any gun will run. It takes meeting in the middle. Like I said earlier, recoil operated guns operate on the principle of RECOIL. Recoil needs to be up against a firm grip.

Someone else mentioned switching to a lighter recoil spring. Did they consider that if you do that, it may not feed the next round reliably? There's a reason gun manufacturers do what they do, not just to piss of the whip wristed folks who refuse to recognized that it's the shooter not the gun in 99% of the cases. I hate to bring it up again, but the guy with all the misfeeds in his HK was totally limpwristing the gun. As was evident in the amount of jump he was getting at the muzzle. All that energy that went "up", was wasted and the recoil operation was not completed because it did not have the required energy to finish. Good engineering is only as good as it's end user. Put the average Joe in a Formula 1 car and see how they handle it at top speed... not a good idea. Neither is firing a gun with two fingers or limp wristed.


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## jakeleinen1

recoilguy said:


> 3 posts now, arguing with someone who knows what he is talking about and verifying your statement with such a ridiculous example.
> I agree with everything zhurdan has said so far. You obviously have come here to provoke a response.....mission accomplished. You loose credibility with each post you make and you are already up to 3.
> 
> Enjoy your 2 finger semi auto, what? ....oh you don't have a handgun you just know these things? I see.
> 
> RCG


Sorry Bro

Thought you were disagreeing, didnt read your post carefullly enough...


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## recoilguy

The car on ice is a perfect anology.......a car will stop in X feet under ideal conditions if it has proper tires proper brake shoes and a proper amount of brake fluid in the car. If it is rainy it will still stop in pretty much the X factor of feet given the same parameters. If it is windy or hailing or sunny or cold or there are acorns on the street it will still stop in the X feet factor also. However if the road is icy then there is no way for friction (which I believe is the principle used in stopping forward momentum) to be exeherted to counteract the forward motion. Thusly with out sufficent Wrist no recoil can be used to make the machine ( a semi-auto) perform as designed. Just because you would like it to doesn't mean it should. To answer the question about expecting gun manufactures to produce something other then what they feel is of the quality they want their brand to be assosiated with, well I would rather have almost any gun then a Kel tec I could care less if they can shot 8 buck a box shells or not. If I buy a quality gun and it will only run on quality brass with round nose bullets loaded to 1.125 OAL or less, even though a 9mm can be loaded to 1.169 and be in spec, I will either load ammo to fit my gun or buy the brand that works. If I do either or both then all the ammo I have available for my weapon will work flawlessly in my weapon. If something won't work in my weapon i will not buy it, if I don't buy it. There are plenty of Kel tec owners to buy the other brands.

RCG

RCG


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