# Help!? Revolver identification, driving me nuts.



## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

So, I have this old revolver ... and a few other oldies. Usually, I can research 
one of the old arms in no time flat.

I have spent three days trying to find out what this revolver is ...
Three days! Every time I think I'm close to solving the puzzle, I end up 
back where I started. Back at nothing.

Then, I had this brilliant idea! 
... Forums have always been helpful. Find a good forum and ask people who know about this kind of sh-stuff!

My husband swore it was a LaMat.
No way! I protested.

Another person said it was the same as Billy the kids gun. 
Which led me to the 41 long ... It can't be a colt though. I couldn't 
find any matching colt.

For a full day, I was positive it was a LeFaucheux. Except, no hinge gate.
That was the closest I got ...

I found a capitol "T" stamped on the side and thought, Tula arms!
It's old enough, so it seemed relevant.
But, I read somewhere that an uncircled "T" stamp on the left side of the 
receiver, possibly indicated German military use.

Now I am lost. Dumbfounded. I don't know where to go from here or even 
where to start looking again.

It's a six shot, center fire.

On the cylinder, there is a "CZ" mark and

what looks like a "W" with a circle around it.

Underneath the grips, on the frame is the number "25".

And of course the "T"

Also, when I cock the hammer, the cylinder rotates the wrong direction.

I know it's missing the sight and the ejector ...

Inside the barrel, just the tip is octagonal, the part closet to the 
cylinder is rounded.

Can someone please help me end this frustration?
There must be someone out there way more knowledgable than me.

Please!?

At this point I care less about the value and more about, simply identifying it.

I can take more photos with the grips off if that will help.
Any ideas?

Here are some photos on my flickr. On the right, above the photo, is the "Older" button. You can click that to see 
All the photos. I took pictures of the markings as well.







http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8609853945/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8609853945/
Thank you, anyone, who might have the slightest clue.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Not a LeMat. Not of Billy the Kid.
It looks French or Belgian. Maybe Dutch. But the markings are not helpful.
The style is something like the pistols of the Chamelot-Delvigne system.

Even back then, just about all European guns had to pass through a government safety test at a place called a Proof House. When a gun passed the test, the Proof House stamped an insignia on the gun that showed where it was proofed, and under what conditions.
Usually, the proof mark was some sort of recognizable national insignia. French proof marks involved florid script letters inside ovals. Belgian proof marks displayed, among other things, the picture of a tower. German proof marks included an imperial eagle. And so on.
If there's no proof mark to be found, that may indicate a Spanish gun (although Spain did have a Proof House) or one from the Balkans. Or it may not.

See if you can find a Proof Mark, or marks, anywhere on the gun.
Photograph it, and post the picture.

That's the only way we can help you.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Okay ... All I could find was a seven pointed, asterisk type star. There's one on each side. I took a picture of the one near the grips, on a nail. It's easier to see
Star mark | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
So, those other marks mean nothing?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sorry, Sasha, but that "star" mark seems only either a flourish added to a screw end, or a way of expanding the end of the screw's shaft so it won't unscrew on its own.
Is there anything under the (ebony?) grips?

(It's not that the other marks mean nothing, but rather that they don't tell us very much, and that they don't tell us anything determinate.)

I am not an expert on old, foreign guns. It's just that I have a very extensive gun-reference library, built-up over 70-odd years.
I can't find this one in my library, and the absence of proof marks keeps me from determining its country of origin.
I can tell you its approximate age, and the type of action inside it, but I can't help you with much more than that.

The absence of proof marks could indicate Balkan origin, or it could indicate Belgian origin, or Belgian-made for sale in the Balkans, for instance Montenegro.

One more thing worth trying: How did you come to possess it? What is its history? If it's a family heirloom, from what country (or countries) did your family (or your husband's family) come? Your family name could indicate France, Germany, England, and a few other places. How long has it been in your family?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Does the cylinder open?


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## sgms (Jun 2, 2010)

It looks like it could be a Lefauchux-Francotte centerfire however the markings are not correct. Maybe it is a copy of one.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

I appreciate your help, honestly I do. Thank you.
It very well could be Belgian ... European for sure.*
Funny though, my husband is German ... my mother is French (I was born in America, so I like to leave the French part out. Plus I occasionally have a southern drawl) We live in the durty south, Florida.
It's not an heirloom. My husband traded for it. The revolver and a few*
other old guns for a shiny shotgun... The people who we traded with said,*
they got it from a crack head who probably traded it for a bag of meth.*
Forgive my speech, but it's the truth.
You've inspired me though. I took it apart, stared at it until my eyes blurred.
Inside the grips, only the number 25.
On top, at the tip of the barrel ... Is an "S". At first I thought it was and 8. But the 13 yr old who works on our farm, who has better eyes, swore it was a "S" when I asked him.*
I don't know if that is helpful.
Did I mention the "T"?*
There are at least three T's stamped on it. And on the top of the barrel is a faint encircled "T". *Very faint.
Again, I'm not sure if these are helpful. Right now, you are are my only hope at ever figuring this out.*
I don't think it's Balkan. I don't think it's Spanish either but, then again, it very well could be either one. You said earlier, no marks indicates a Spanish gun?
If the T and S and CZ and W and #25 mean nothing without proof marks (if none of those qualify as proof marks) ... What would be your honest opinion on this piece without the proof?
I came across the ChamelotDelvigne and it seems to bulky and this revolver seems more on the*LeFaucheux side of things (excluding the model of the hinge) ... But, it can't be either... I'm no gun expert at all but, you seem to know alot more and have more access to documents than I do.
I took a few more pictures. Including the S ... :/ Thank you for your time.
Apart. | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Cylinder doesn't open ... Centerfire. Single double action.


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

may i post this on another gun board i am on? sometimes folks are pretty knowledgeable over there.

not that we aren't here but new eyes might help.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

In my references, all of the French and Belgian revolvers of the same age as yours have much different ways of latching the reloading gate. They also come apart much differently.
I can't help.
Sorry.

The grips aren't ebony after all, I guess. (Although ebony can be brown, in its natural state.)
The number "25" may be its serial number.

I'm left with one last conjecture: Dutch.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Interesting, in that it has no front sight? No front sight seems rather odd at least from an accuracy standpoint, or unless it was suppressed. I want to think it's a clone of a Nagant, at least you will see the same type of hammer on the M1878 Belgian Nagant. If it has a 20 pound DA trigger pull, rest assured it's a Nagant of some type in that the Nagant uses a special trigger mechanism to both rotate the cylinder and push it forward when the trigger is pulled and likewise was the only revolver of it's time that could be suppressed. That's my guess?


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Broondog said:


> may i post this on another gun board i am on? sometimes folks are pretty knowledgeable over there.
> 
> not that we aren't here but new eyes might help.


Please do. New eyes, new insight. That would be greatly appreciated if you would do that.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

denner said:


> Interesting, in that it has no front sight? No front sight seems rather odd at least from an accuracy standpoint, or unless it was suppressed. I want to think it's a clone of a Nagant, at least you will see the same type of hammer on the M1878 Belgian Nagant. If it has a 20 pound DA trigger pull, rest assured it's a Nagant of some type in that the Nagant uses a special trigger mechanism to both rotate the cylinder and push it forward when the trigger is pulled and likewise was the only revolver of it's time that could be suppressed. That's my guess?


Well, I may or may not have had a front sight. There is a little indent where the sight should be, which leaves me to assume it had a sight at one time. I thought Nagant at one point too ... But, it just doesn't seem right. It seems as though it could be a copy of a few things ... I'm still guessing.
Apparently, it's never been to a proof house... I can't be satisfied yet... There's another one out there... Gotta be.


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

i thought Nagant at first as well but the loading gate flips the wrong way. very interesting to say the least.

i posted it on another board to see what they think over there.

link to thread......firearm ID


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

A member on the other board mentioned a pinfire conversion,which is ironic because a pinfire popped in my head reading through this post.Is that a possibility?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Not a pinfire conversion. The hammer and its mortice are both wrong for that. See the photo with the "CZ" callout.
Depending upon the shape of the hammer's nose, it was built as either a rimfire- or a centerfire-cartridge gun. (Sasha says that it's a centerfire.)


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

could the "W" in the circle actually be a "Y" in a circle like this?  Russian proof


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks Steve,I've seen the ammo but never saw a gun.Wish I could get my hands on an old friend's collection.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Hmmm ... Took another look at the "W" .... Not a "Y". Definitely a "W".
Took a better picture to compare. Also took another picture with the hammer cocked.
Link:W ... Better photo | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

cocked | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

The "W"-in-an-oval does look like a proof mark to me, but I can't find anything like it in my references.
(My chief-and best-reference is Wirnsberger, G., and R.A. Steindler, _The Standard Directory of Proof Marks_; Jolex, Inc.; 1975.)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*I GOT IT!*

It's _*Dutch*_! (That was one of my conjectures, as you may remember.) It's something like the Dutch M.1873 Military Revolver, or a civilian version much like that, although I suspect that it's an older model (since the frame isn't solid). Also, it seems to be a much larger caliber than the 9.4mm of the army version. But it is definitely Dutch.
Please don't ask us to date it, though. That might be impossible.

The general layout is the same, as is the loading gate. But the military version ejects differently (using a removable cylinder pin as the ejection tool).

See: Google Image Result for http://www.montywhitley.com/img/items/128570312538084100.jpg


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

By George I think he's got it , or close. I like a good puzzle. The read below may be helpful as well, especially concerning Military Firearms. Do we have a caliber determination on this pistol? 

Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used to identify the manufacturer. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber determination. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military weapon.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Steve ... You are close... At least the loading gate is correct/similar. I can't find anything that matches though, according your description. Didnt you say earlier you could tell me the approximate age and action used inside it? We have a few friends that live in holland, my husband is going to e-mail them tonight. Maybe they can give us something more to go on ... Hopefully, maybe.
denner, It seems the bore is one and one sixteenth in centimeters... The closest SAE we can find is .45...
If someone could help with the NATO of a .45 equivalent ... ?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Antique Gun Collecting, Pistols, Rifles and Revolvers, at CorEden.com Fine Antique Arms

Nouvelle page 0

It's very close and after research many manufactured the old model and only one manufactured the new model(round barrel). Many such variants' including one that was modified to fire gas cartridges. One thing is constant however and a tell all, if the caliber of this pistol is 9.4mm it's Dutch and only Dutch of some variant, maybe a crude and/or cottage industry type as mentioned. And yes (W) is a Dutch proof mark. That crown on the bottom of the grip is extremely odd and seems out of place as if it belonged on a pistol 100 years prior?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*denner*, that's a duplicate of the gun that I found.

*Sasha*, it's possible that your pistol was either the predecessor model; or even a manufacturer's sample, in the attempt to get the Dutch Army contract. If it were the maker's sample, it would have no useful markings.
You say that the bore measures about 10.06 centimeters. No-it's gotta be _millimeters_. That'd be 0.396", I think-nominally .40 caliber. The .45 is about 11.43mm, or 1.14cm. The Dutch Army caliber is 9.4mm, or about .38 caliber (actually 0.370").
I'd place the gun at just the advent of fixed, center-fire cartridges. That's about 1870. (If it fires rimfire loads, that could push it back to the middle-to-late 1860s.) The Dutch Army pistol is the model of 1873, so it probably just barely predates that. Somewhere between 1870 and 1873 is as close as I'd care to date it (but I could be way wrong).


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *denner*, that's a duplicate of the gun that I found.
> 
> Yes I know, just adding a little background data and history to your discovery.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Sasha*;
Look at the fourth picture down, in the site to which *denner* has linked us. There is the "W-in-an-oval" mark. (That's something that my link does not provide. Nice work, *denner*.)
I believe that it is, indeed, some sort of proof or government-acceptance mark.

At the same site, we also find this: http://www.littlegun.info/arme pays bas/artisan/a de beaumont revolver francotte gb.htm
This is even more similar to your pistol, in terms of general arrangement and its extractor-rod setup.

And here is the slightly earlier, pinfire version of your pistol: http://www.littlegun.info/arme pays bas/artisan/a brossois gb.htm
Note that it goes together in exactly the same way, and ejects in the same way too. Only the hammer, its mortise, the cylinder, and the loading gate are different.
The pinfire versions seem to date from around 1869, and the official military version from 1873, so I think that my guesstimate of 1870, '71, or '72 is correct.

*denner*, I apologize for being dismissive of your find. The site you found had much more valuable information in it than did mine. Nice work!


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

But, it's not a pin fire There are no notches in the cylinder for the pins, also no hood on the hammer to set off the pins. * I don't think it's modified either. Centerfire. ... Oh! That's right, you already explained that in your 'pre-dating'.
It's like a cross of*Lefaucheux and a Belgium/Dutch pistol.*
It certainly looks like that last pinfire you showed me ... At least, just the body and barrel. Minus the grips and butt too. The last picture also looks like a*Lefaucheux, same body and loading gate as one. It's like the revolver is made with both parts from 1850 and 1890 ... Is that a possibility?
The first picture link though ... Is like a distant relative, three times removed.
I can't be satisfied until I figure out the loading gate mystery. Nothing has revealed that answer .... You say 1870-ish Dutch sample of a revolver... I can take your word for it but, it's still hard to swallow as truth. I sure wish I could find one like it in a photograph ...
I couldn't see the W in denners link ... I'm sure it's there, I just couldn't see it.
Where on the gun was it stamped? Position of the gun in photo? So I can look again.Thank you for your help.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Sasha*;
It's in the fourth picture down at: Nouvelle page 0
The position is on the front of the frame, just below the cylinder-arbor-and-hole-for-the-ejector, right in the center of the photo.
The shape of the "W" is slightly different from the one on your gun.

Your gun is a centerfire Hembrug, but it's an older model that's based upon the previous pinfire version.
I guess you might call it a "transitional model," in much the same way that the Richards/Mason conversion and the "M.1872" are transitional models between the 1860 Colt's Army Model percussion revolver, and the M.1873 Army in .45 "Long" Colt and the .44-40 "Peacemaker." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Model_1871-72_Open_Top

Your pistol shows influence from the Austrian Gasser pistol of 1870. See: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=gZVcUYajAujriwL0oIDoAw&ved=0CBwQ9QEwAQ
However, it is not a Gasser. Yours has no Austrian proof marks, for one (very important) thing. The loading gate is definitely Dutch, for another. Finally, the barrel assembly connects to the frame in a different way.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Thank you very much. A 1870-1873 Dutch Origin, Hembrug, manufacture's military model/prototype (makers sample) centerfire, sa/da, .45 revolver. Thank you very much for solving my mystery Steve and denner. I appreciate it. ( I say .45 because, .35 and .38 fell through. .44 was to loose. .45 was a good fit for an acp. )
Again thank you very much!  Thank you. Thank you.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *Sasha*;
> Look at the fourth picture down, in the site to which *denner* has linked us. There is the "W-in-an-oval" mark. (That's something that my link does not provide. Nice work, *denner*.)
> I believe that it is, indeed, some sort of proof or government-acceptance mark.
> 
> ...


Ah thank-you, priviledged to be # 1 assistant. Like Watson to Sherlock.


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