# Chuck Hawkes and Advice for a Novice



## mith_maker (Apr 25, 2013)

Hello all ~

I'm new to the site and relatively new to shooting. I've read all the newbie stickied posts on handgunforum.net, so I promise not to ask which gun I should buy. (I have a Browning Buckmark for practice, and I have a list that I am working through to see what works best for me for home defense. So far, I like the Glock 17 and the XDM.)

However, Chuckhawkes.com has some confusing information on his site. In short: Are revolvers better for home defense? Also, he claims S&W has a "dark side," and has declined dramatically in quality since the 60s. How much of a concern are the issues he raises??

And, a related, but a non-Hawks question: Are there any sites that research the *reliability* of guns post-shipment from the manufacturers? A gun won't do anyone much good if it won't fire! I checked out Genitron, which is a cool site, but does not include any stats on reliability, meeting specs, jamming, etc.

The longer version is below:

1) He says that the semi-auto "It is not so good for the casual user who is not an avid shooter and/or not particularly knowledgable." His main arguments are: a) Because, "Magazines should be rotated on a monthly basis. The spring in a loaded magazine left unattended for an extended period of time may take a "set" and then lack the pressure to reliably feed cartridges, causing a jam at the worst possible moment." b) Most autoloaders, especially older designs such as the M-1911 and Luger, become unreliable if left uncleaned. c) Autoloading pistols are more likely to jam than a revolver, particularly if fired through cloth (say from a pocket in a sudden emergency), from an unusual orientation (sideways or upside down), or with a "limp wrist" (insecure hold). If a criminal grabs the barrel/slide." (See Handguns for Home Defense for details.)

2) The incidents he describes with new S&Ws are pretty grim. Cylinders so far out of spec, they would not rotate; bulged chambers; etc. See The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson.

Yet, at the same time, a guy at a local gun dealer referred to S&W as the "Cadillac of Revolvers." I was looking through the S&W posts, and there are some recalls, etc.

Thanks for your help and your patience.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*About S&W:* Some time ago, S&W was briefly owned by a British company that was pro-gun-control, but that issue is long gone. S&W makes good stuff.
*About Magazine Springs:* What Chuck Hawkes, whomever he is, says about magazine springs is pure and unadulterated bull-puckey. Springs wear out only from repeated compression and relaxation. Fully-compressed springs will return to full uncompressed length after remaining compressed for years and years.
*About Gun Reliability:* You get what you pay for. Cheap guns may work well for a while, but they will fail sooner than you want them to. Taurus is a special case, since their designs are pretty good, but their quality-control has been spotty, so buying one is a crap-shoot.
*About Gun Choice:* Some semi-auto pistols are harder to manipulate than some revolvers. But since you need to practice pistol shooting to become effective and accurate, the point is moot. You learn as you shoot, so choose either one. _But_: It is easier to learn to shoot a gun which presents you with the very same trigger action for each and every shot. Pistols with triggers which shuttle between a long, hard, double-action trigger and a short, lighter, single-action trigger are bad for beginners, and for learning in general.

_Other Stuff..._
*The 1911 and Luger are Unreliable:* _All_ guns are unreliable, if left uncleaned for any length of time. The 1911 is particularly _reliable_, even when dirty, because _it was designed to be reliable when dirty_. The Luger is unreliable, period-depending upon the ammunition you're using.
*Jams When Firing Through Cloth:* If you fire a shot from inside a pocket, a jam will be your least worry. More important, especially if you're firing a revolver, will be the major burns that you will suffer as a result of fire and very hot gas coming out of various gun orifices. And then, of course, there is your inability to hit your target, because your gun is in your pocket.
*Unusual Orientation:* No properly designed and handled gun will jam or misfire because you're "holding it funny." Upside-down? OK! Sideways? OK! Straight up? OK! What is not OK is _holding it wrong_, about which Mr. Hawkes is finally correct. Hold semi-autos _firmly_. Better is _very firmly_. I tell beginners to "use a death grip."
And finally, *Never Let Anybody Grab Any Part of Your Gun*, ever.

Based upon your quotes, I do not think very highly of Chuck Hawkes's advice (and I can't access a website in that name, either).
At the same time, beware of the gun-shop salesman who wants to sell you what he has lots of in stock. He does not have your best interests in mind.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Just remember, opinions are just like feet.

They *ALL* smell to some degree or another.

BTW.....Who or what is a Chuck Hawkes? :watching:


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Chuck Hawks is a regular guy who likes to write and likes guns... he basically takes other peoples work, thoughts & experience and makes it his own (whether factual or not)... and reviews firearms, usually with bias.

His credentials are serving in the Air Force where he once qualified as a Marksman and being certified by the NRA in basic classes. He started a slick looking website and actually has a small following (mostly new gun owners). He has a lot of charts for velocity and recoil & other stuff (researched by others) which is appealing to users.

Not impressed... I think there's more practical knowledge (first hand) and experience in here... and only a little bias, usually toward Taurus, lol.


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## mith_maker (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for the comments guys.

TAPnRACK is right. It looks impressive and seems like a valuable resource, especially if you are just starting out, but the pieces were not adding up after awhile. 

Steve, would you tell me more about what you mean re: kinds of guns shuttle between long and short triggers? Are you referring to all DA Revolvers or something else? Thx.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Steve's referring to firarms with DA/SA... first trigger pull is a Double Action (long and heavy) with all subsequent trigger pulls being Single Action (short and light) until the gun runs dry & slide locks.

A DA/SA usually has a DA pull of 8-12 lbs with the SA pull being approx 4.5-3 lbs. (In most cases).

Classic examples being Beretta 92's or Sig P226.

The "other guns" that are referrenced have the same trigger pull every time... they are SAO or DAO. They are only capable of one type of trigger pull.

Examples would be a 1911 or Glock.

Revolvers are a different animal in the fact they are DA that can be "staged" into SA by cocking the hammer back. The difference is every time you fire a revolver it will fire in DA unless you physically pull the hammer back for every SA shot (which is not the same as a Beretta or Sig).


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

mith_maker said:


> ...Steve, would you tell me more about what you mean re: kinds of guns shuttle between long and short triggers?...


There are three basic trigger actions, plus variations on them, as follows:
• *Single-Action (SA)*-The hammer (or striker) is cocked by some external means, for instance by the shooter's thumb or by the movement of the gun's slide, providing a short, reasonably light trigger let-off that is the same for each shot. (Examples: M1911 Government Model, Colt's Single-Action Army Revolver.)
• *Double-Action-Only (DAO)*-The hammer (or striker) is both cocked and released by the same fairly long, fairly heavy trigger movement, which remains the same for each shot. (Examples: Kel-Tec P3AT, S&W M.442 revolver.)
• *Traditional Double-Action (TDA)*-The hammer (or striker) may be externally cocked, as in SA, or may be both cocked and released with the trigger, as in DAO. A TDA semi-auto pistol is usually fired DA for its first shot, while its hammer is slide-cocked for subsequent, all-SA shots. (Examples: Beretta M9, Colt's Detective Special revolver.)

The beginning shooter has enough to contend with, learning grip, sight picture control, and recoil control. Requiring the beginner to also master a trigger action which switches from a DA first shot to SA subsequent shots is just too confusing, and is counter-productive to good shooting practice.

(Sorry for the duplication, *TAPnRACK*: You posted while I was still writing.)


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

No problemo Steve... he was asking you anyways.

It's always good to see the same info explained 2 different ways... and still getting the information across.


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## mith_maker (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes, actually the duplication is helpful, especially since I was definitely confused on that point. Would I be correct in believing that the Glock 17 and the Springfield XDM are both DAO? (I'm mentioning those specifically because I've actually fired those.) The trigger pull seemed to be fairly consistent from beginning to end, as I recall. Is one type of action "safer" than another, or is it personal preference?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Glock coined the phrase "Safe Action Trigger"... but it is the same as other striker fired handguns (action wise).

As far as a DA/SA, DAO, SAO, TDA, TSA goes... safety is dependant on the user. The more you practice, become familiar with a particular firearm's functions and the more you train... the safer you will become.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

A wise man once said: "The most effective safety mechanism is the one in your skull, between your ears. Make sure that it is always turned on."

It is a bad mistake, to rely for safety upon the mechanical safety mechanism of your firearm.
But if you conscientiously apply the basic laws of gun safety, your weapon's mechanical safety can fail and you still will not do any damage.

1. Treat _all_ guns as if they are loaded and ready to fire, _all_ of the time.
2. Don't point any gun at anything that you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger, until you are committed to firing a shot.

• I believe that the Glock (and the XDM) should be considered to have DAO trigger actions, for conceptual purposes. They don't, mechanically speaking; but functionally speaking, they do.


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## blake38 (Apr 18, 2013)

Mith_Maker

I think you would find a glock 17 or XDM reliable and easier to shoot than a revolver. The long, heavy, double-action trigger pull on a revolver makes it challenging to keep the front site steady-on-target as you are pulling the trigger. This can be overcome with enough practice, I'm just saying the revolver's trigger takes more practice to master. 

Ideally, I would find a range that rents guns and test this out yourself. Next best thing, dry fire a revolver in a gun store while carefully watching the front site. Try the same thing with a glock or XDM. I would bet that you find the latter guns easier to keep still. 

Blake


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

All this _mechanically speaking_ and _functionally speaking_, is getting me all excited and stuff.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

Chuck Hawkes = -1.
For some reason unknown to me, he hates S&W.
Just my biased opinion about his biased opinions.

I have only one S&W. The Model 642 J-frame snubby. I added CR laser grips.
It has never failed to perform. Mechanical performance and quality seem perfect.
But, this is only ONE data point.

YMMV. :smt1099


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

When it comes to revolvers, it's S&W for me, period. I've owned Colts in the past, and was fine was them. But, I keep going back to S&W.

I'm a bit more opened minded with it comes to semi-autos. But still, my list of preferred brands is short.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> A wise man once said: "The most effective safety mechanism is the one in your skull, between your ears. Make sure that it is always turned on."
> 
> It is a bad mistake, to rely for safety upon the mechanical safety mechanism of your firearm.
> But if you conscientiously apply the basic laws of gun safety, your weapon's mechanical safety can fail and you still will not do any damage.
> ...


Good advice to live by. Literally !!


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> Just remember, opinions are just like feet.
> 
> They *ALL* smell to some degree or another.
> 
> BTW.....Who or what is a Chuck Hawkes? :watching:


_Feet_? That ain't the way I heard it!

And I think that Chuck is one of old man Hawkes's boys.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I take care of my feet


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Hurryin' Hoosier said:


> _Feet_? That ain't the way I heard it!
> 
> And I think that Chuck is one of old man Hawkes's boys.


I was just tryin to keep it poolite. :mrgreen:


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