# Interested in CCW but need advice...



## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

I've been lurking for a while here and finally decided to officially join. I am interested in getting my CCW but I have been running into more questions than answers. 

First off, let me tell you what I do know. I know that the best CCW pistol is the one that you will always have on you. Whatever suits your need/comfort/dress/level of proficiency. I also know the laws in my state and the hoops I have to jump through. I know I am going to take a CCW course even though it is not going to be required after the first of the year. I am not new to shooting, I own several firearms but i think the course will help me polish a few techniques I have been working on. Obviously I am new to CCW. My foremost concern is my safety and the safety of those (not trying to rob me) around me. Anyway, the more questions I ask the more questions I seem to have. 

I am getting conflicting reports on the reliability of small semi-autos such as the Ruger LCP. Not to pick on that one specifically, but any gun in the subcompact category. The course I am going to take requires up to 400 rounds put thorough it and the instructor has indicated that he has seen lots of problems with the subcompacts after that level of use. Even after 50-75 rounds. He recommends a "service size" pistol. Any thoughts?

Reliability aside, I am concerned about the actual physics of carrying. I am about 5'8" tall, #160. I can't easily (read: comfortably) conceal a large weapon. If I am not comfortable I won't carry and that will defeat the purpose. What recommendations do you have regarding holster options? I know there are pocket, waistband, etc options but I am having trouble visualizing the actual setup. I feel like a waistband (inside the pants type) holster would make the pants too tight. Or at the very least you would have to wear loose pants to be able to access the gun. And I already carry a wallet and car keys in one front pocket and a cell phone in the other. Any help here would be huge. 

Lastly, caliber. I know that this is opening up a can of worms but I have to ask. I understand the trade offs between the weight of the gun and recoil and how that affects acquisition of the target after the first shot. I understand that a .22 won't stop a grizzly. I understand that at the end of the day I have to choose a weapon for myself, that I am comfortable with. With all that in mind are there any suggestions of a gun that you feel combines size/weight/caliber ideally? 

A little background on myself. I'm 30 years old and married. I don't have any children. I am a normal guy like all of you. I don't live a dangerous lifestyle. I don't walk down dark alleys at 3am. I am not aware of any grizzlys in my area.  My philosophy on carrying is that I never want to have to pull a weapon and I don't think I ever will. But if that day comes, I feel like the situation will be such that the gun will never be fired, but I am mentally ready to fire if I have to. I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't buy the argument that "nothing less than a .45 has the stopping power I need". I would like to stay in the .380-9mm range if that is realistic. 

If you're still reading, I really appreciate it. Thanks in advance for your advice and sorry for such a long first post. :mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

A beginner should avoid small pistols. It's hard enough to use a large handgun effectively. Learn good technique first with a full-size, heavy gun, to make the job of learning less complicated and more comfortable. Later, if you still want one, you can switch to a "mini-gun."
No matter the stopping factor, or the fight-ending factor, or the ability to hit the moon with the very first shot, generally speaking a full-size, all-steel .45 ACP is the easiest semi-auto to learn to shoot. That's because its recoil is soft and manageable. Revolvers are easier to use in a panic because they present fewer complications than most semi-autos, but a single-action semi-auto is easier to learn to use well.
If you intend to carry a self-defense weapon, you will have to make "sartorial readjustments." Thus wearing an inside-the-pants holster presents the concomitant need for larger-size pants. There's no way out of it. You will also need a really strong, really stiff belt, regardless of how you decide to carry. Further, you will need a holster of a commensurate quality to your pistol. Holster, belt, and magazine carrier together will cost at least a third of the price of your gun, and more likely more than half.
The hard part of concealing a gun is its grip area, which really wants to stick out. There are holsters which partially solve this problem by pulling the grip tightly against your body. Because of this tightness, you will have to practice your presentation-from-concealment on a daily basis, forever. It's best to start off with one of these rigs, and learn to use it from the very beginning. Learn slowly by concentrating on smoothness; speed comes only with practice.
Let us know how you do.


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

Steve is right on. You'll be suprised what you can comfortably conceal with a QUALITY holster and belt. I'm basically your same size and I have no problems hiding a full size 1911. Do it right the first time and spend some money on your holster/belt you DO get what you pay for.


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## oldguy (Apr 1, 2010)

*I feel your pain*

I know what you're going through. I have been shooting for over 50 years but I'm new to CCW and recently went through what you are working through now. Until recently I lived in Maryland where they agonize over letting law enfocement carry and consider any private citizen who wants to carry to be, at minimum, suspicious. So what to carry wasn't an issue. I now live in an enlightened state, with civilized people who recognize that the second amendment is as important as all the rest. I took the CWL course, required for the permit, and started looking for concealable guns. You say you are not new to shooting, so you probably have some basic skills. If you don't, I agree with the last poster, a full size gun is easier to develop the necessary skills. But they are hard, is not impossible to conceal. Check the definition of concealed in your state. Usually, the law is more liberal than most people's personal definition. Personally, I want a gun I can completely conceal. I want not only to be legal, but I also don't want to upset or make anyone nervous around me with suspicious bulges in my clothes. And I don't subscribe to the school of thought that says only 9mm or bigger is sufficient for defense. A .380 or even a .32 are potent weapons at close range (up to 15 feet) in the hands of a skilled shooter. If the danger is further away than that, I'm going to be seeking cover, probably not standing my ground. And most .380 compacts or sub-compacts, after some work on the range, are good out to 10 yards. I suspect that 5 .380s on target in rapid fire will do. We are not talking sub-inch groups here. We are talking 5 rounds on a torso sized target. Remember, the goal is to stop the danger, not to kill, unless that is necessary to stop the danger. And think about this. If you do happen to hit an assailant beyond 30 feet away, you may have a hard time showing that your life was in immediate danger. You may be able to show intent, but opportunity and means could, and probably should be questioned. When we put that piece in our belt, we take on a much higher standard of care and responsibility.
In any case, I chose a Walther PPK/S .380 for home and cold weather carry and the Ruger LCP for hot weather carry. I've worked with both, feel confident in my skill and I'm comfortable carrying them.Under those conditions, both are completely concealable. I'm getting a Ruger LCR .38+P also. When I do, and after enough range time to give me confidence I can handle it effectively, it will probably be my primary carry piece with the LCP as a back-up piece when I feel the need. I have CTC laser grips on all and work with the laser every time I go to the range. Doesn't replace good basic skills, but the laser, after some work, provieds new skills that are effective in low light, and especially on rapid fire.
Hope some of this is helpful. Good luck. Practice, Practice, Practice. Be a safe and effective shooter.


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

All very good responses! 

Moving forward based on these posts leaves me with just a few questions. 

I guess I wouldn't classify myself as a "beginner". I have been shooting for several years and own a revolver and several long guns. I am certainly not "advanced" which is why I am taking the CCW course. I have fired just about every mainstream caliber in semi-auto and .38-.357 in revolver. I am comfortable with the basic operation and maintenance of a pistol. 

I must admit, I am guilty of wanting it all. A gun that is not there until I need it and when I do it pops out and hits like a 10 gauge. Of course, that is not realistic. Having never concealed, I have only my conclusions to draw from. I assume that a smaller gun will be easier to conceal as a general rule. Starting from that premise I would like to choose the smallest weapon that I am comfortable with. That may end up being be a full size frame, and it may not. 

Money is not an issue. However, I don't want to purchase more than one gun. I don't want to have one to learn on and one to carry. I already know how to shoot, so the only thing I have to learn is how to carry. I don't mind spending whatever is necessary to safely and legally carry, that includes any accessories I need. 

Which brings me to my last point. I could really use some direction as far as brands and models of gun matched up with holster and belt. I would like to see as many options as possible so I can try each and see which I like best. 

Old guy, I am concerned about the reliability of the small Ruger. Any thoughts on that? And, Steve, I literally lol'ed when I read your comment about hitting the moon with the first shot. That is so true!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Since you have shooting experience, maybe you're ripe for a mini-pistol.
You wrote that you want one that "pops out and hits like a 10 gauge." That's actually possible, especially since you also wrote that "money is not an issue."
Here's what I suggest:
There are two "heavy hitting," but really tiny, pocket pistols. One is the Rohrbaugh 9mm, at about $1,200.00, delivered. The other is the AMT .45 Backup, currently at about $650.00, delivered. Either one will do the trick, if you do your part. Both ride easily in any pants pocket (in a holster, of course).
Both of these pistols are DAO, and do not have safety levers or slide stops. The Rohrbaugh comes ready to use with a very nice trigger pull. The AMT requires either the attentions of a gunsmith or a bit of careful kitchen-table, do-it-yourself work. (Assuming the use of a really good gunsmith, the AMT will end up costing somewhat under $900.00, once the necessary trigger, feed-ramp, and chamber work is done.)
Add to that a good pocket holster, somewhere around $50.00, and there's your outfit.

Pocket pistols require lots of extra practice. They are not comfortable to shoot. Hitting with them isn't easy. Bear all that in mind, as you make your decision.

(I carry the AMT .45 Backup, 24/7. I did my own gunsmithing, and it was tedious but not difficult.)


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

CZ75 in 9mm OR a Kimber Custom target in 45 ACP.


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

I guess I was exaggerating to make a more dramatic point when I referred to the 10 gauge. I'm not sure it needs to hit quite that hard. 

To Steve and Sully, what holsters are you using with the pistols you mentioned. Like I said, I am most concerned about comfort since I won't likely carry a gun I am uncomfortable with. As far as the pocket holsters go, do they somehow anchor in the the pocket? How do you pull the gun out without also pulling the holster? Or do you pull the holster out with it? With the hip holsters I have seen the grip sticks out above the waistline. It is covered by an untucked shirt. Is there another type I should be aware of? I have also seen a very low profile fanny pack (for lack of a better description) style that goes either in the front or back near the waistline. I have pretty much ruled out any type of ankle carry. 

Thanks for your patience. You guys are PROs!


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

kyro.... in IWB (Inside Waist Band) there are tuckable and untuckable. Both are covered by an overshirt, however with tuckable the clip holding it to the belt is such that you can place your shirt between the holster and the belt. This makes for very good concealment (with the right setup of course)..BUT adds steps and time (and therefore practice) to your draw. I tend to wear tuckable holsters, but only tuck them when i need to tuck the shirt (say professionally).

pocket holsters can work in a few ways. some are leather with the rough side out to keep them "stuck" in the pockets, or some form of "grippy" material (nylon with a grip etc). Some have a "hook" at the back or front of the holster, and as part of the (practice) draw, you hook that part on the pants pocket, keeping the holster in the pocket while the gun is drawn out. I have even seen some where you use another finger on your drawing hand to "push" the holster while"pulling" the gun.

you asked for specifics. ok. I have a galco belt (forget the model, but it has a taper for the loops and buckle), and either a MTAC Spartan (S&W M&PFS) or a home made Kydex tuckable for a 2" .357 revolver. Both holsters, in conjunction with the belt, hold the grip in tight to my body. both take practice to wear and draw/reholster from. There are 2 brands of full leather holsters that i like also. K&D holsters, and lasco leather. overall it is getting used to wht you carry, and finding (often by trial and error) what works for YOU.

hope this is some help.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Pocket Holsters:*
I believe that the best of these have a covering rectangle of holster material (leather, plastic, or fabric) on the outside, secured only at the bottom of the rig to ease access, which makes the outfit look like a wallet. It will inevitably "print," but it will print as a wallet.
The best all-leather pocket holsters, for instance those made by Doug at Bear Creek, are cut so that the thumb of the firing-grip hand has a "push-off point," to separate gun from holster.
Other pocket holsters, for instance the artificial-leather ones made by Robert Mika, are covered on the outside with "sticky" material. Robert uses the latex-on-fiber webbing you'd use to secure a rug to the floor. This stuff has to be kept clean, so it's best attached to a washable material.
It has been my experience that a pocket pistol should be carried in the strong-side, upper front pants pocket, not in a "cargo" pocket or a hip pocket. The reach for a pistol in a "cargo" pocket is too far, and is complicated by the pocket's closures, all of which makes a presentation much too slow. You end up sitting on a pistol carried in a hip pocket, and I find that pretty uncomfortable. On the other hand (literally), a pocket-carried back-up to a full-size gun should better be carried on the weak-hand side.
The most difficult thing about pocket carry is to figure out where to put its reload(s). Weak-side-hand access seems to be the most important issue here.

I carry a closer-to-full-size gun occasionally, a 1911 "shortie." This goes OWB, on my belt. I prefer Bob Mernickle's holsters for this use, because they ride the gun higher than do those from any other maker. The higher ride makes OWB concealment easier, but it isn't the best method for carrying long, full-size pistols.

My wife prefers the Smartcarry for her Kel-Tec P3AT, although she also likes the Clipdraw that's attached to her S&W Airweight Bodyguard revolver. She has two clip-on, IWB, Galco holsters she really likes, too.

The best ready-made, off-the-shelf, leather holsters seem to come from Galco.


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

kyroguy said:


> I guess I was exaggerating to make a more dramatic point when I referred to the 10 gauge. I'm not sure it needs to hit quite that hard.
> 
> To Steve and Sully, what holsters are you using with the pistols you mentioned. Like I said, I am most concerned about comfort since I won't likely carry a gun I am uncomfortable with. As far as the pocket holsters go, do they somehow anchor in the the pocket? How do you pull the gun out without also pulling the holster? Or do you pull the holster out with it? With the hip holsters I have seen the grip sticks out above the waistline. It is covered by an untucked shirt. Is there another type I should be aware of? I have also seen a very low profile fanny pack (for lack of a better description) style that goes either in the front or back near the waistline. I have pretty much ruled out any type of ankle carry.
> 
> Thanks for your patience. You guys are PROs!


I use a Bianchi #5 for the 1911's....and a BlackHawk for my little SW MPc. Both of my holsters are held on via a waistbelt...only way the holster will come undone is if I pull my pants off at the same time....:anim_lol:

I dont always "carry" ( on my person) a weapon but always have it "close at hand". At 5'10" and 240 lbs + - Ive told the police there isnt enough room in my pants for ME..let alone an inside the pants type of holster. Mine is shoved in between the seat and the center console of my Jeep Liberty...OR....inside one of the little "pockets" in the door itself. Just tooooo many places one cant carry and I dont want to be putting it on and taking it off all the time.

I think you will find after awhile that a 1911 is a LOT of baggage to be toting around all the time...hence the reason I went to a MUCH smaller weapon for carry


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Sully2 said:


> Both of my holsters are held on via a waistbelt...only way the holster will come undone is if I pull my pants off at the same time....:anim_lol:


I would be laughing at the sight...until I saw the gun come out!

Ok, now we're talking. This talk of specific brands it exactly what I need. I think now my day will be filled with Google images. I also really appreciate the visual description of how the pocket holster functions. That helps a lot.

One last question. (for now anyway) Sounds like you guys carry a fully loaded gun. For those that carry a semi auto, do you have one in the chamber? Or do you have to pull the slide back on presentation to chamber the round? It also sounds like some of you carry extra magazines. What is the thinking there? I wasn't thinking I would ever need the extra mag, can you convince me otherwise?


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## oldguy (Apr 1, 2010)

*I like the Tuff Pocket Roo for the LCP*

I have a Galco inside the belt and a Galco belt holster for the Walther. Since I only carry it in cooler weather when I wear the clothes to conceal it, both work well. I use a Tuff Pocket Roo for the LCP. The pocket roo does double duty. It has kind of a sticky sufface (Not wet sticky) and clings to fabric well.So I use it in the pocket or as a wasitband holster. It has a compartment for an extra Mag.

Just a thought. Everything is a compromise. You can't prepare for everything, so you do the best you can. Sure, you might run into a wacko spaced out on PCP, unable to feel pain and I remember the guy who stole a tank and went on a rampage. But unless you want to figure out how to conceal a LAW, you ain't going to kill a tank. The wacko might be harder to stop than a person operating on normal brain functions, but if it's a deadly force situation, not by much. So I subscribe to Aristotle's Golden Mean. "The virtuous mid-point between two vices." I want enough to do the job in the majority of potential situations, but I don't want a Barrett .50. I know that leaves a lot of room, but the point is, it's all a compromise. That's why I chose two pieces. The range of compromise was split into two smaller areas.(Well that's the reason I gave my wife)

The LCP, as does most sub-compact semi-auto's, has a problem with some hollow point ammo, and I'm still working through that. It's a matter of range time to find the brand the gun likes to eat. And, .380 is often hard to get. It has no promlem at all with any brand of ball. So I carry ball ammo. I suspect that 5 rounds of ball on target will do a credible job, even in .380. That is also why I'm getting the LCR .38+P revolver. I'm an old wheel gun guy who just recently started using seni-auto's. Don't get me wrong, I like the LCP. It's an amazing little gun. I was impressed with it's accuracy. And field stripping and cleaning is a breeze. But for reliability, I guess I'll always be a wheel gun fan, especially for a primary piece.

I do carry a round in the chamber with the Walther. It is DA on first pull and has a safety. I don't carry a round in the chamber on the LCP.

I like your approach. Get lots of opinions, read the reviews, maintain a healthy skepticism, then decide. I didn't do it that way and spent a lot of money I shouldn't have. I first boughtr a Taurus 709 slim because I like the looks and feel of it. But then I found out my old hands couldn't control 9mm in such a light gun. I traded it on a Walther PPK/S .380 two weerks later. Ka-Ching. I really like the Walther, but found that it was too big (even though it is a sub-compact) to carry in light clothes. So I bought the Ruger LCP. Ka-Ching. And now, after a few mis-fires, I am longing for the absoltute relaibilty of a quality wheel gun. Ka-Ching. Oh well, I do like all three and when I get the LCR, I think I'll have the bases covered. If I had known what I know now, I would have bought the LCR or maybe a S&W Centennial first and probably added the LCP later. But I do like that Walther. And you know, I've been looking at that North American Guardian.....


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

kyroguy said:


> One last question. (for now anyway) Sounds like you guys carry a fully loaded gun. For those that carry a semi auto, do you have one in the chamber? Or do you have to pull the slide back on presentation to chamber the round? It also sounds like some of you carry extra magazines. What is the thinking there? I wasn't thinking I would ever need the extra mag, can you convince me otherwise?


I dont carry with one in the chamber...BUT..there is one in the chamber LONG before I might need to use it ( after extracting from the holster)

Extra Mag? I have my weapon for "self defense" and if I havent defended myself with 8 to 12 rounds...well. If I intended on shoot up the area...carry 2 or 3 extra mags.

I look at loading any of my semi autos in the same manner as a pump shotgun.. Jacking a round in the chamber and making sure everyone hears and see it is a large deterrent in itself.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

Sully2 said:


> I look at loading any of my semi autos in the same manner as a pump shotgun.. Jacking a round in the chamber and making sure everyone hears and see it is a large deterrent in itself.


You've watched too many Hollywood movies.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*This is an important point:*
If you carry a defensive weapon with an unloaded chamber, all you are carrying is a very expensive rock.

*An absolute:*
When you need self protection, you _absolutely will not_ have time to rack the slide of your pistol. You'll be injured or dead first.

*A corollary:*
If you feel unsafe carrying a fully-loaded, ready-to-shoot pistol, either you need to re-think your philosophy, or you need to take a force-on-force class, or you need to give up carrying a defensive weapon.

*A couple of tests:*
Unload your pistol, and place every last cartridge you own in another room. Check the pistol's chamber. Check it again. Holster your pistol. Now, have a friend come at you from across the room while you draw, rack the slide, and "fire" a shot.
Next, have the friend stay across the room, facing away from you. At _his_ signal, draw, rack the slide, and "fire" the shot as he turns to face you and pretends to fire his own shot.
Are you "dead" yet?


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *This is an important point:*
> If you carry a defensive weapon with an unloaded chamber, all you are carrying is a very expensive rock.


Untrue!


> *An absolute:*
> When you need self protection, you _absolutely will not_ have time to rack the slide of your pistol. You'll be injured or dead first.


At the mere perception of any sort of "problem" a round will be in the chamber! PRIOR to any actual need in defense


> *A corollary:*
> If you feel unsafe carrying a fully-loaded, ready-to-shoot pistol, either you need to re-think your philosophy, or you need to take a force-on-force class, or you need to give up carrying a defensive weapon.


Personally I dont feel unsafe in any manner, but I dont need a handgun; shotgun or any defensive weapon including a knife...if Im in "the shower"...or driving down my country road at 45 MPH.


> *A couple of tests:*
> Unload your pistol, and place every last cartridge you own in another room. Check the pistol's chamber. Check it again. Holster your pistol. Now, have a friend come at you from across the room while you draw, rack the slide, and "fire" a shot.
> Next, have the friend stay across the room, facing away from you. At _his_ signal, draw, rack the slide, and "fire" the shot as he turns to face you and pretends to fire his own shot.
> Are you "dead" yet?


Thats assinine! Let him try and break into my home and see if he confronts me with a handgun with no round in the chamber!

Dont confuse "condition 1 with "paranoia!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sorry, Sully, but you're willfully misunderstanding what I wrote.
The point about being "attacked" by a friend is a demonstration of your inability to rack a round into your pistol's chamber at the moment you're being assaulted. It has absolutely nothing to do with any home-invasion problem. I specified being in a room because it defines a distance, and that's the critical distance at which most attacks occur.
Feeling unsafe carrying a fully loaded pistol has nothing to do with taking a shower without one.
Further, nobody, not even you, can actually predict when an attack will occur.

Sorry, man, but I do not suffer fools gladly. This ends our conversation.


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Sorry, man, but I do not suffer fools gladly. This ends our conversation.
> 
> Further, nobody, not even you, can actually predict when an attack will occur.


The first comment suits me fine
The second I also agree on and trust me or not,..and it sure doesnt matter to me, while an "attack" cant be "predicted"...the mere preception that one MIGHT is enough cause to go to condition !.

An M1 Abraham's doesnt run around with a round in the breech, but at the mere conception of one..they sure will "lock and load".

"To Suffer Fools"...
What were are people trying to express, and why were they are using these same words? There's something puzzling going on here, because that term makes no sense if you think about it. To say that someone doesn't suffer fools implies that there are others who do. Can this be the case? Are there individuals (never mentioned in newspapers, incidentally) who eagerly cultivate the acquaintanceship of fools and enjoy their company? Surely theirs can be no more than a minority taste. The absence of it hardly merits comment. So when writers and others use that phrase, they don't mean it literally. They are trying to make a point without stating it.

Suffer-fools, a malleable euphemism, carries a rich load of ambiguity. Everyone who uses it means something different, and readers take from it whatever they choose. If it's said often enough about the same person, we may guess it's an oblique attack. It suggests that the subject is brusque to the point of rudeness, uncaring about the feelings of others, given to rages when crossed. Often it's an attempt to avoid risking offence while describing someone totally disagreeable. To Suffer-fools-also works as thinly disguised self-praise.


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

This is my thread and I'm the boss. The rules here are that there is not fighting...especially when you are all giving me good advice. If you must fight, then it will have to be a duel. Each gets a six-shooter and ten paces will separate you. But I digress...

I don't feel unsafe with a fully loaded weapon. In fact I don't feel anything because I have never carried. I am looking for opinions or preferences from people that do. I was curious how safety's (or would it be safties or maybe even safti) played into the equation. I know that many smaller guns don't have a safety. They are also double action on the first pull and many are double action only. I figured that this was a sort of a built in safety. I have also read of guns such as the Ruger LCP being recalled because they fire when dropped. I realize this was years ago and the problem is fixed now (hopefully) but this was part of what prompted my question. If you were unholstering the weapon for any reason, even at the end of the day in your home and happened to drop it you obviously wouldn't want it firing. It couldn't possibly fire if there was no round in the chamber. Please be aware that I am not using that example to express a preference of keeping one chambered or not, simply illustrating how I came to the question. 

As far as predicting an attack, yeah, I can't. If I could do that I would only be interested in carrying on the days I was going to have an altercation. I'm not sure if I'm on board with the friend attacking me demonstration. I don't point a gun, even unloaded, at something I don't intend to shoot. But it does make a valid and important point. An attack can come quickly, very quickly. In that situation I don't think I would have time to pull the slide to chamber a round. I'm not sure that I would even have time to draw the gun depending on how it was holstered. I guess that is where practice comes in. At the end of the day if someone comes up behind you and hits you in the head with a ball bat it's all a moot point...but again I digress.

Anyone carry a small revolver?

I mentioned the extra magazines because I thought I read a previous post that said someone was carrying one. I tend to think that if I can't neutralize a threat with a full mag or revolver that I'm probably not a very good shot...or I'm some place that I really shouldn't be...by myself...

So, keep the suggestions and opinions coming. And play nice! :smt1099


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

kyroguy said:


> ......
> 
> I don't feel unsafe with a fully loaded weapon. In fact I don't feel anything because I have never carried. I am looking for opinions or preferences from people that do. I was curious how safety's (or would it be safties or maybe even safti) played into the equation. I know that many smaller guns don't have a safety. They are also double action on the first pull and many are double action only. I figured that this was a sort of a built in safety. I have also read of guns such as the Ruger LCP being recalled because they fire when dropped. I realize this was years ago and the problem is fixed now (hopefully) but this was part of what prompted my question. If you were unholstering the weapon for any reason, even at the end of the day in your home and happened to drop it you obviously wouldn't want it firing. It couldn't possibly fire if there was no round in the chamber. Please be aware that I am not using that example to express a preference of keeping one chambered or not, simply illustrating how I came to the question.
> 
> As far as predicting an attack, yeah, I can't. If I could do that I would only be interested in carrying on the days I was going to have an altercation. I'm not sure if I'm on board with the friend attacking me demonstration. I don't point a gun, even unloaded, at something I don't intend to shoot. But it does make a valid and important point. An attack can come quickly, very quickly. In that situation I don't think I would have time to pull the slide to chamber a round. I'm not sure that I would even have time to draw the gun depending on how it was holstered. I guess that is where practice comes in. At the end of the day if someone comes up behind you and hits you in the head with a ball bat it's all a moot point...but again I digress.


I dont feel UNsafe with a fully loaded weapon either...but it doesnt HAVE TO BE condition 1 ..100% of the time.

Example: I see you live in Iowa....which I travel thru on I80 about 75% or more of my vacations. Now..do I NEED to be in condition 1...while driving down the interstate highway in a 15 TON vehicle..??? Now...should I stop at a rest stop...or even STAY overnight in a rest stop....THEN I go to "lock and load". see what I mean?

The whole world IS NOT a huge pitbull at the end of his chain thats ready to break...while he is snapping at your throat...and I try my dam'est to stay AWAY from alocation or a situation where I feel I need everything from "belts of ammo" to a razor sharp KaBar on me.


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Two questions, Sully.

First, did I miss something? What was condition one?

Second, what the heck is a KaBar? lol


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## cougartex (Jan 2, 2010)

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Kabar - A knife.

https://www.kabar.com/index.jsp


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

kyroguy said:


> ...Anyone carry a small revolver?...


Yeah. My wife, Jean, does.
She has slide-racking issues. I've taught her how to best use her upper-body strength to rack a Kel-Tec P3AT, but small semi-autos have stiff recoil springs. Our full-size 1911s give her no trouble at all.
Her five-shot, 2", .38 Special is less easy to conceal than my pocket .45 semi-auto, but since she wears elastic-top pants over a Smartcarry, it is invisible enough. It's easy for her to access it, too.
Some people like revolvers for pocket carry, but I think that they print too easily. It's the diameter of the cylinder. In concealment, the flatness of a semi-auto is a huge advantage.

The Smartcarry works best in a pretty limited environment. Men's belts get in the way of both access and reholstering. Some men access the Smartcarry via their fly-zippers. That works well only if you practice the heck out of it.
Were I to carry any revolver, I would put it in a good-quality, leather belt holster, probably OWB.


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Some people like revolvers for pocket carry, but I think that they print too easily. It's the diameter of the cylinder. In concealment, the flatness of a semi-auto is a huge advantage.


That's exactly what I was thinking. I love the reliability of the revolver, but I couldn't imagine the bulk of the cylinder not being a problem. A friend of mine (a veteran who is very comfortable with all types of weapons) is strongly pushing a revolver. He forwarded me an article about "limp wristing". It detailed physiology during stressful periods and talked about the increase in likelihood of a weak grip jamming an auto. Of course we are all going to post here about how strong our wrists are (from shooting of course) and how that would never happen to us. Bottom line, though, is that it could happen. The article went on to talk about close quarters fighting where pressing the gun to an attackers body while firing, or an attacker grabbing the slide could jam the gun. Of course, in all likelihood at least one shot will still go off. Hopefully that shot is on target. Additionally, your training should prepare you to clear a jam quickly in any situation. But there is no denying a revolver won't jam like that. And the last thing I want to be doing in that situation is trying to clear a jam...

As far as retrieving a gun through your fly...I would love to see a video of that! I can imagine the look on the attackers face. I can imagine them stopping dead in their tracks at the sight. Thinking, "WTF is that guy doing? I'm about to rob him and he is...I don't know what he is doing." Then you finally produce the weapon and the bad guys problem is now in his own pants. But not in the front, in the rear....


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

kyroguy,

Obviously, from reading your posts, you are an intelligent guy, who has thought this all out pretty well, so you will end up recognizing the sound advice that you have been given, and will end up doing about as well as anyone can, until they actually start executing the plan. 

Most sensible folks started out about the same way as you are, though I'll personally admit to being a little bit less thorough. Initially, the plan is always to get by with one handgun and one holster, practice once a week, and just carrying when you think a heightened level of care is necessary.

It never works out that way. You will eventually realize that if you intend to truly be able to defend yourself, you are going to need to carry every day, everywhere the law allows. You will likely either come to that conclusion, or stop carrying altogether, because it is just too much hassle. If you do continue to carry, you will likely purchase several guns and have a drawer full of holsters, within a couple of years...always searching for that perfect combination of comfort and firepower. You will alter the way you dress, where you go, and a dozen other little minor things...just to accomodate your desire to be properly armed, should the need ever arise. You may even feel pretty vulnerable on those occasions when you cannot be armed.

Personally, I recommend that you just go ahead and buy a mid-sized 9mm, and start shooting a lot. Buy a good IWB holster and discover all its disadvantages. IWB usually ends up being the most practical, for most people, because, although you will usually have to have a cover garment, it allows you to conceal a serious SD handgun (9mm and above).

If you then decide that you have to be able to pocket carry to be armed all of the time (as is true in my case), buy something like an LCP, and begin discovering its limitations. My personal compromise is an LCP with Crimson Trace laser sight, which gives me a bit more confidence in my ability to stop a threat with a .380. I at least believe that I have a chance to get a few rounds on target, even if not at ~ point blank ranges. I carry two extra mags, not because it's likely that I will need to fire 19 rounds, but because I can drop a magazine and insert another, in case of a failure. My LCP has never failed to load, eject, or fire...but I assume that it will, if I ever really need it. 

You will do fine...just start.


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Bisley said:


> Buy a good IWB holster and discover all its disadvantages.
> 
> If you then decide that you have to be able to pocket carry to be armed all of the time (as is true in my case), buy something like an LCP, and begin discovering its limitations.


I like the way you say it. There are going to be disadvantages to every aspect, and we have to identify them. Only then can we (semi) comfortably and safely carry.

I certainly don't mind purchasing several weapons over a period of time, in fact I already only several long guns. My concern was having to lay down hundreds of dollars for a course, hundreds more for a gun, hundreds more for the accessories to carry it safely/comfortably, and staying married at the same time. :mrgreen: I think you guys probably get the picture... I can only ever imagine carrying one gun at a time so if it can be avoided, there is no sense in buying more than one at this point.

I also understand your point about carrying extra mags. I wasn't thinking about having to drop one on a jam. Again revealing my need to take the CCW class. I couldn't possibly imagine all the tactical situations that you guys have been exposed to. That's why I'm here...


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## oldguy (Apr 1, 2010)

*LCR is about as small as they go*

Try out the Ruger LCR 38sp+P Steve. The wheel makes use of all the advantages of modern steel to strip it down to minimum size. I haven't fired it yet, but I've held it and tried in in a pocket. Yes, it prints through some but not obvious with a flat pocket holster and lose pockets. Heck with the style of jeans and shorts today it wouldn't be noticable and the thing is very light. It won't weigh down your pocket. The weight is my only concern, .38+p is a lot of powder in such a light pistol. 13 oz, I think. I want to shoot one before I buy. I don't want to make the same mistake I did with the Taurus 709 slim.

Limp Wrist: I haven't found it to be a problem with the LCP or the PPK/S. The LCP fits tight in my hand and the size incourages a tight grip. I had trouble with the Taurus and had to work on my grip to get the thing to fully cycle every time and cock for the next round. But I don't seem to have that problem with sub-compacts.

In a high anxiety situation, at least in my experience, you are more likely to grip too hard than to go limp. Things go to hell pretty fast with incoming, buit the tendency is to tense, not relax. But I'm not an expert here, I can only tell you what happened to me. Might be different for others.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"Limp wristing" is not a problem to one who practices a firm shooting grip, preferably two-handed whenever possible. (But do practice one-handed and weak-hand-only shooting.)
Modern pistols and modern ammunition generally preclude misfires, so no "double-strike" or "immediate next shot" capability is really needed.
These facts mean that you can choose to carry either a semi-auto or a revolver on the merits of the gun, and not in preparation for a failure.

I second *Bisley*'s comments. Whatever you choose will be the right thing...for a while. Then, once you have gained self-protection experience, you can experiment to find the next right thing, and the next, and the next.
I must add, however, that being able to use lots of different pistols is not truly practical. Concentrate on being extremely good with one particular, easy-to-carry gun, rather than being merely adequate with many different ones.

I'd love to try out the Ruger LCR, *oldguy*, but Jean is learning two different pistols already (besides her "beginner's" 1911), and I don't want to overload her.
Besides, her Airweight Bodyguard is almost as small, just as easy to conceal, and just as light. She would neither be comfortable nor accurate with .38 Special +P ammunition anyway, so we have no real need for it.
Thanks for the thought, though.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

And back to the OP's question about revolvers. I also carry a revolver often. I carry IWB strong side. tuckable. I find i carry the revolver in nuetral vcant whereas a semi-auto i carry with a cant. why? the revolver grip i find easier to conceal under a t-shirt than even my small (not kel-tec p3at) semi-auto. and pocket carry i tend to use a semi auto (p3-at or p-11) due to (as Steve said) the flatter slide being easier to conceal than the cylinder of the revolver.

I carry loaded. whether that be a full cylinder in a revolver, or a loaded chamber. I DO NOT have confidence in my ability to draw, rack, and get on target in so short a time as will likely be needed, and feel no need (indeed being here in NY this could present numerous problems) to be repeatedly loading/unloading a chamber depending on situational awareness. Or having to thinki, "is there one in the chamber, do i have to rack the slide" etc. I carry loaded. I practice loaded. at night.. i unload the chamber. yeah i know many don't agree with this but.. I am asleep. if someone else gets the gun, i dont want it ready for them (like the dogs will let that happen). If i grab it half asleep, i want to need that extra step of rack it to get my (probably groggy) head fully in the here and now.

I carry spare ammo no matter which gun. 10 rounds (2 speed strips) with the revolver, 10 (1 mag) with the semi-auto. OP, please don't buy the "a revolver wont fail" argument. they, like any mechanical device, can fail. and are harder (usually) to get back in action if they do.

Gather info (which you seem to be doing very thoroughly), try, buy, practice.

I practice with both, my primary semi-auto, and my priamry revolver. I do however find myself quilty of NOT practicng as much as i should with the p3-at.


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## twomode (Jun 7, 2009)

Owning a weapon(s) is a big responsibility. Carrying whether OC or CC is in my mind the ultimate responsibility. Take your time, explore all options, experiment with different configurations and dig for as much info as possible. Much of the best answers are right here and there are a couple other places as well. The learning curve for me has gone on for a year, and may never end. Thankfully I can post what might seem the dumbest question and get good responses. You will too. Get started!


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

kyroguy said:


> ....
> As far as predicting an attack, yeah, I can't. If I could do that I would only be interested in carrying on the days I was going to have an altercation. I'm not sure if I'm on board with the friend attacking me demonstration. I don't point a gun, even unloaded, at something I don't intend to shoot. But it does make a valid and important point. An attack can come quickly, very quickly. In that situation I don't think I would have time to pull the slide to chamber a round. I'm not sure that I would even have time to draw the gun depending on how it was holstered. I guess that is where practice comes in. At the end of the day if someone comes up behind you and hits you in the head with a ball bat it's all a moot point...but again I digress.


Kyro: I missed this paragraph earlier and just wanted to maybe clear up a point. I dont even beging to percieve myself as "Matt Dillon" who ONCE "attacked" will pull my weapon and THEN jack a round in the chamber. FARRRR too late for that move.....but as a small analogy let me say this.

I live in the country in the middle of a large woods. Should I hear "something" outside in the middle of the night..do I go outside and once I come upon whatever it is then chamber a round? NO WAY JOSE. Ive got a round chambered before I even step outside. What is it out there? Skunk? Deer? BigFoot? or someone attempting to break into my home.

DO I go to the "bad sections" of Cincy at 2 Am with $100 bills hanging out of my pockets? ( What do you think?) I have no business there..thusly I dont even GO there ( The cops dont even want to go in less than groups of two!!

Thats all I was trying to say


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Wow I have read through this thread and found it very interesting. Some very good advice, some varied opinions presented.

I am in the camp of get a good weapon a good holster and a good belt. I agree with who ever said a good holster and belt will cost up to 1/3 what your weapon did. I also am a firm believer that one in the tube is how a gun should be carried but I understand others have contradicting opinions. I am not in the camp that if you carry without one in the tube you should give up carrying. I am not a fan of pocket carry however I have done it when it seemed my only option. Just because I am not a fan makes it neither right nor wrong it only makes it my opinion.

I do think learning with a larger (midsized) gun makes a world of sense and seems more intellegent then starting out with a little guy. I think a good midsized gun can be concealed and with good gear can be done so very comfortably and effectively. I understand why some one would think 8 bullets is enough but I also always have extra ones on me.

If you truly want one gun to learn good habits and the limitation I would also suggest a mid sized 9mm and a good IWB holster. I agreed with Bisleys fine post on this thread, he hit it right were I think. If you buy a good mid sized 9mm ie a CZ P-01(for size comparison) and use it and practice with it you will either quit carrying or have many guns and a hanger or two full of holsters.

Good luck with your choice, good luck with what ever gun you decide. Have fun, become proficient. practice with what you use. I carry a Kahr CW9 85% of the time in a IWB http://jndtactical.com holster. The other 15% I carry a CZ P-01 in a High Noon IWB or a Hazel OWB holster. Hazel makes great over the counter leather holsters!!!!!! They are what I practice with and what I feel comfortable with. I shoot a few other guns too but these are my personal protection ones. This has benn a very good thread with good questions and good banter.

RCG


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Sully2 said:


> I live in the country in the middle of a large woods. Should I hear "something" outside in the middle of the night..do I go outside and once I come upon whatever it is then chamber a round? NO WAY JOSE. Ive got a round chambered before I even step outside. What is it out there? Skunk? Deer? BigFoot? or someone attempting to break into my home.


There really is a BigFoot?!?!? Holy crap, that is the most important information yet to be revealed in this thread!

Kidding of course. There is tons of good info here. Keep it coming if you come up with anything else and I will keep you updated as I get closer to making a decision.

:watching:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

1. We, here in the far upper left-hand corner of the US, have the exclusive ownership of the Big Foot brand and all of its products, including oversize trailers, oversize Boogymen, and oversize beer bellies. There are no legally sanctioned Big Foot products, including the big guy himself, anywhere near Cincinnati.

2. Look into my eyes. Look deeply into my eyes. You are getting drowsy. When I snap my fingers, you will rush out to your nearest gun store and buy a plain and simple M1911, .45 ACP pistol, four spare magazines, a Galco holster, and a very stiff belt.
SNAP!


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

kyroguy said:


> There really is a BigFoot?!?!? Holy crap, that is the most important information yet to be revealed in this thread!
> 
> Kidding of course. There is tons of good info here. Keep it coming if you come up with anything else and I will keep you updated as I get closer to making a decision.
> 
> :watching:


Did you happen to see the news lately about that HS kid that fell off the 5th floor balcony in Florida and died. He was from Cincy. 17 yrs old...6'8"....280 lbs.! So what do you think??...:anim_lol:


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

thats enough with the Bigfoot stuff



> *PROHIBITED TOPICS*: The discussion of any illegal activity is strictly prohibited. This is a no-tolerance issue. Members who are in violation of this rule will have their accounts closed upon the first infraction with no warnings given. SHTF, TEOWAWKI, & Zombies: SHTF (S#*t Hits The Fan), TEOWAWKI (The End of The World As We Know It) and Zombie threads (*this includes any fictitious or yet to be verified creature) are prohibited*. Legitimate discussion about short-term survival from a natural disaster like a hurricane or flood will be allowed, but will be closely moderated and threads closed without warning at the first sign of deviation. Violations of this rule will result in warnings and account closure depending on the frequency and severity of the offensives. "Gangsta" talk: "Gangsta" talk and slang is prohibited. Depending on the severity of the infraction, a member may receive a simple warning or may have their account closed.


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## Sully2 (Mar 9, 2010)

Sorry about that Mod if I "infracted"..? ( is that a word??)


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## kyroguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Holy crap, Steve. I just woke up in my front yard...wearing nothing but a stiff belt. I went in the house and there was a brand new .45 and some spare mags. Do your powers work for stuff like the lottery too...?

:anim_lol:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sully2 said:


> Did you happen to see the news lately about that HS kid that fell off the 5th floor balcony in Florida and died. He was from Cincy. 17 yrs old...6'8"....280 lbs.! So what do you think??...:anim_lol:


Yeah, yeah, yeah... But, in the words of the late, great Fats Waller, "Was his _*feets*_ too big"? :mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

kyroguy said:


> Holy crap, Steve. I just woke up in my front yard...wearing nothing but a stiff belt. I went in the house and there was a brand new .45 and some spare mags. Do your powers work for stuff like the lottery too...?
> 
> :anim_lol:


Nope. Just with shooters...and women.


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