# Legal in most states: Small Self Defense Handgun for Backpacking



## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Hello,

I'm looking for a "light weight" handgun that I can take out backpacking. I want to be "able" to hike 10 miles into the woods and be safe at all times.

Details: I want to hike 10 miles, camp, and then come back.

I own a Taurus 45 which I shoot every month. I think it's too heavy to do what I want to do.

If I ever do go on a backpacking trip with one of my large backpacks I will be carrying around 80 pounds. 

On my backpack, I will have at least a sleeping bag, sleeping pad, sleeping foam, tent, (expensive light rubber raft,) tarp for tent, tiny gas stove, fuel for stove, food, eating utensils, paddle for raft, hiking poles, fishing rod and gear, cloths (coat), toiletries, lights, cleaning non-standing water gizmo, fire kit, knives, water bucket, small medical kit, mirror, emergency communication, (shovel, snow shoes,) etc.

So, what is the lightest (can I say best) handgun that I can buy to protect myself on hiking trip(s) and be legal in most states? What else can I buy for that handgun.

Thank you,
SelfDefenseNovice


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

You need to supply a little more information.

o So you want a small handgun or just that it be light weight?
o To what purpose do you wish the gun to serve? Defense against 2-legged predators, 4-legged ones, or both?
o Do you plan to holster the gun or carry it hidden in your backpack?

I'll offer my own opinions to get you started with your quest. I would want to carry my handgun in a holster. This makes it more readily available, offers much better protection for the trigger than just having it in a backpack, and gets a minor amount of weight out of your pack and on your waist.

I would want a sidearm that will offer me decent protection against any predator I am likely to encounter, be it man or beast. And don't forget to carry some extra ammunition just in case you might need it.

If you backpack into country that has black bears and perhaps large cats, a very good handgun to consider is the Glock 30. This gun chambers 15+1 10mm cartridges which are very powerful and well suited for these areas. If your backpacking takes you into larger bear country, nothing short of the venerated .44 Magnum should be considered. A brown or grizzly bear is a tall order for any handgun. And none of those guns, of any decent quality, are going to be light.

If, on the other hand you're only worried about 2-legged critters, there are a wealth of quality handguns to fit the bill. I'd stay in the 9mm or .40S&W corral to get a good, light weight gun that has good capacity. If your wont lies in a revolver, the .357 Magnum in something like the Ruger GP100 would be a fine choice.

So much more to add but this should get you thinking and asking more questions. Best of luck in your search.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

You didn't mention what caliber or what types of wildlife that you might encounter? *Obviously the largest caliber that YOU can shoot accurately in a light weight gun would be your best choice.* Only you can be the one to determine that. If you're accustomed to carrying an 80 pound backpack the extra weight of an all steel gun in a shoulder holster shouldn't make that much of a difference. I prefer while going on hikes to carry a heavier gun in a shoulder holster and a light weight gun on a belt holster. More of a comfort thing if anything.

Some states have magazine restrictions so to be legal you should consider buying a gun that holds 10 rounds or less. But that's besides the point. You should always check with those state's gun laws first before attempting to enter them. Do you have a concealed weapons permit from your home state? If so, does the state(s) that you are entering honor that permit? Even then you have to abide by that state's gun laws which may be different from your home state's. What else to buy for that gun? If it's a semi auto: extra magazines, for a revolver: a couple of speed loaders. You may want to buy some shot loads for each. If you have a semi auto make sure that the gun will function properly with those loads. Not an issue with a revolver.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

I guess you never plan on hiking in the Adirondack or Catskill Mountains in upstate NY then? Or I guess also the Berkshires in Massachusetts? Probably Pennsylvania may be about as far as you can go if you want some hills to climb. Oh, I forgot, I think you're going to have to go around the west end of Maryland also.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

To name two options
S&W Shield .40 (17.9 oz without mag)
Product: Smith & Wesson Performance Center® Ported M&P®40 SHIELD?

Sig Sauer P938 9mm (16 oz without mag)
P938


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## mmais68569 (Sep 20, 2012)

Let me state something as far as backpacking & firearms & trouble. I have personally hiked 1500 miles of the Appalachian trail & over 500 miles of the Florida Trail. My pack is 30-35 lbs which includes 2 1/2 liters of water tent sleep pad change of clothes & 5 days of food. I have encountered 11 bears in the 1500 miles on the AT including a mother with 2 cubs not over 50 feet away. I used to carry a firearm but found no need to have it just an extra 1 Lb + to carry. In my opinion you are safer in the woods without a firearm then you are with 2 firearms in any Wal-Mart parking lot in the USA. The criminals are not going to exert the energy to hike into the woods to cause trouble when they can go to any Mall in town. Leave the gun home & get out & enjoy what nature has to offer.

Mike

PS Forgot to mention I am 65 years young & enjoy getting out.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

If you want to carry a pistol while hiking, you will need a slightly "dropped" holster*, so that it will not interfere with your pack's waist belt.
The holster, and the gun, should _stay on your person_ when you drop your pack to rest or to camp. That way, your defensive weapon will be at hand, no matter what you're doing.

***"Dropped holster" means a holster on a longer-than-normal belt loop, so the holster dangles somewhat lower. By this, I _do not_ mean a thigh holster, because they are both uncomfortable and circulation-inhibiting. The holster you choose might have an inch or two of "drop."

An 80-pound pack seems to me to be overkill. I've never hiked with more than about 35 pounds on my back, plus water and a poncho.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

I don't know 68569, hiking in the backcountry without a firearm? Maybe that'd be OK on the east coast, but I wouldn't think about leaving my gun at home when hiking out here in Wyoming. Black bear sow with cubs at 50 ft.? Are you a "Bear Whisperer"?
Did you ever think that maybe you were just lucky? If I was the OP, I'd get a J-frame S&W airweight in .38 sp. and stuff it full of +P hollowpoint ammo. It'd be just for emergencies and would be used for extremely close range. That'd handle most of what you'd encounter. You'll pack it more than shoot it, that's for sure. JMO


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> If you backpack into country that has black bears and perhaps large cats, a very good handgun to consider is the Glock 30. This gun chambers 15+1 10mm cartridges which are very powerful and well suited for area mentioned in the last sentence. If your backpacking takes you into larger bear country, nothing short of the venerated .44 Magnum should be considered. A brown or grizzly bear is a tall order for any handgun. And none of those guns, of any decent quality, are going to be light.


The Glock 30 is chambered for .45 ACP. The G20 is the full sized 10mm and the G29 is a more compact 10mm. A small amount of modification to the G20 can up it's power near to a .44 magnum, with 200 grain ammo. Even against a brown bear, this would be my choice, due to the likelihood of getting off more shots in a charge situation. I know that lots of folks who have experience with bears are not afraid of them, but I would have a hard time trusting such an unpredictable creature to follow normal guidelines.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

I just watched the Redbox movie titled "_Backcountry_" (the attached link is to the official movie trailer).

At the start of the actual movie and trailer, it said it's based on a true story. But, the park, itself, is definitely fictional. I googled for the Nibookaazo Provincial Park, but found nothing.

I can explain the plot briefly. A couple goes on a trail (called Blackfoot) that is closed, get lost in the woods, a big fat black bear eats the man, and chases the woman. The death is shown in gruesome detail (face peeled away, man's chest without his abdomen etc.). The woman flees and eventually makes it back to where the couple's rented canoe was picked up.

Details:

The boyfriend (Alex Lewis) explains to Jenn (girlfriend) why the Blackfoot Trail is called that. In so many words, he says that the local tribes coined the name for it. This is because when the trail ends it circles around this really small lake, the earth around the lake is black, and when the tribes hunt they follow animal tracks in the black earth. So, the trail was named Blackfoot Trail.

I think maybe the bear, initially, got into the couple's camp by tracking a deer. That's my guess. It was dialed in to the deer hunt so didn't, initially, attack the couple! The couple slept while the bear poked at their tent. (The only thing that I found to be slightly unbelievable was that they didn't wake up at all.) The couple find the half eaten deer the next day.

The boyfriend did leave his bloody sock out on a tree to dry. That also might have attracted the bear. Alex hurt his toe when he took the canoe out of the water. The nail came off, disgusting.

The bear pulls the man out of the tent by his leg. The woman doesn't use the pepper spray a second time. My guess is that the can was cheap and only was suppose to work once. It probably discharged completely on the first use of the pepper spray?

The partially eaten man ended up looking exactly like the partially eaten deer shown earlier, gutted. (I turned away and didn't watch this part of the movie.)

At various places on the first viewing, I stopped the movie because I did not want to watch the woman get eaten. Instead, I looked for the plot on the Internet. But the first time I watched the movie I was on the edge of my seat. I managed to finish the movie with only partial details.

She ended up at a small water falls which the guide talked about. The guide had earlier quizzed the woman's boy friend about it. Anyway, she went down the right side of the falls like the guide said. (Was that a coincidence. This made me suspect the guide. Again, maybe the guide was up to foul play.)

A whistle came with the canoe rental. The bear shook its head when the woman blew the thing. (To me a whistle is beneficial to alert humans in your vicinity. I own a few non-orange and non-yellow ones! She probably thought about suing the canoe place.)

Oh yea, she was once a very beautiful woman.

My guess is that the contrast between the scruffy looking boy friend and the A+ looking woman helped to intensify the audience's feelings towards the couple. The boyfriend was unshaven, had unkempt oily hair and oily skin while his girlfriend had a ton of makeup on and looked like a professional model or something. If you watched the movie you would feel she's beautiful. (I.E.: There were scenes in the movie where she looked really nice, and others where she looked human and down to Earth.)

I watched the movie a few times. One thing I noticed was that the couple stumbled onto a rustic guide from Ireland. (I find it hard to ask myself. Did the guide push the bear onto the man, so that he could get the woman? Or, did the guide just want to warn the couple about the dangers in the woods? Maybe, the guide had acquired over the years an attitude to all inexperienced people in the woods. Maybe, the guide was asked to look into the couple if he got a chance. Or, maybe the guide had previously chased the bear around the park a few times.)

Alex works for his buddy's landscaping company.

She's probably a lawyer because she knew what a Grandfather Law is. That's when an old law applies to existing situations, but then new laws apply to future situations. This was brought up by the guide in defense of why he fished when it was illegal to do so.

The woman's pepper spray only pushed back the bear once.

She slept in a tree like the girl in the first _Hunger Games_ movie, but without a rope.

The movie ends with her crawling to and then almost landing in the arms of that rustic guide from Ireland.

That bear had no fear of humans, and liked to continually eat things.

The actor Alex Lewis is also the Executive Producer of the movie.

SelfDefenseNovice

References:

(1) Actress: Missy Peregrym

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missy_Peregrym

(2) The guide described his job as giving backcountry Eco tours to tourists that want a deeper experience of the wilderness. Something more than camping in a parking lot.

Definition: Ecotourism is a form of tourism involving visiting fragile, pristine, and relatively undisturbed natural areas, intended as a low-impact and often small scale alternative to standard commercial (mass) tourism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotourism

(3) Complete death scene:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Make sure that you differentiate between a movie and real life.
The two rarely coincide.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Bisley said:


> *The Glock 30 is chambered for .45 ACP*. The G20 is the full sized 10mm and the G29 is a more compact 10mm. A small amount of modification to the G20 can up it's power near to a .44 magnum, with 200 grain ammo. Even against a brown bear, this would be my choice, due to the likelihood of getting off more shots in a charge situation. I know that lots of folks who have experience with bears are not afraid of them, but I would have a hard time trusting such an unpredictable creature to follow normal guidelines.


Oops. Boy did I blow that one. Thanks for the correction. Now I have to go to the bathroom to get all of this egg off of my face. Incidentally, I did mean to write "Glock 20" since I really do know the difference in these models.

Yes bears are highly unpredictable beasts and coupled with their power and speed, this makes them probably the most dangerous 4-legged predators in the U.S. A Glock 20 loaded with Double Tap, Underwood, or Buffalo Bore ammo would make a formidable sidearm to have in bear country.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Coroner: Bullet, Not Bear Killed Woman
Playing dead was the wrong move during Yukon attack
By Rob Quinn, Newser Staff 
Posted Dec 26, 2015 7:33 AM CST

Claudia Huber's husband, Matthias Liniger, fired at the bear as it dragged her away during the October 2014 attack, and Yukon Chief Coroner Kirsten Macdonald determined that she was killed not by the grizzly bear, but by a bullet that "struck a tree branch and deflected from the anticipated path and trajectory," hitting her in the chest, CNN reports

Link to Article, Coroner: Bullet, Not Bear Killed Woman


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## berudd (Jan 22, 2016)

Man, if I could carry an 80 lbs pack 10 miles I doubt I be worried about the difference in weight between and stand and sub-compact handgun.

As far as criminals not wanting to venture out to find trouble that's not always the case. Several years ago a guy was troll a part of the AT here in NC and did kill people. A friend of mine actually came across him while hiking be as he was with a group of people was safe. He didn't find out until later that's who it was.


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## Freethought (Jan 10, 2016)

mmais68569 said:


> Let me state something as far as backpacking & firearms & trouble. I have personally hiked 1500 miles of the Appalachian trail & over 500 miles of the Florida Trail. My pack is 30-35 lbs which includes 2 1/2 liters of water tent sleep pad change of clothes & 5 days of food. I have encountered 11 bears in the 1500 miles on the AT including a mother with 2 cubs not over 50 feet away. I used to carry a firearm but found no need to have it just an extra 1 Lb + to carry. In my opinion you are safer in the woods without a firearm then you are with 2 firearms in any Wal-Mart parking lot in the USA. The criminals are not going to exert the energy to hike into the woods to cause trouble when they can go to any Mall in town. Leave the gun home & get out & enjoy what nature has to offer.
> 
> Mike
> 
> PS Forgot to mention I am 65 years young & enjoy getting out.


 Best temper that advice , while it may be valid for your area ( I personally still wouldn't do it without one) it's not valid for all areas. I split my time between northern Wyoming and Alaska , in either location it's more than a bit foolish to go out hiking unarmed.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

.357 is the best general purpose cal. I would recommend a S&W model 66-3 for light weight but enough power for most varmints 2 or 4 legged. This is just general info to help but the 2 legged varmints are the most dangerous and the do like trails because help is far away.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

Ruger SP101, SS, 357mag, Hard cast Lead bear loads, (NO JHP). 2" barrel. Chest mounted holster. 
S&W model 60, same ammo, same rig.


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## Bobshouse (Jul 6, 2015)

Sounds like your looking for a Kahr P380, CW380, Ruger LCP 380 or some other pocket size carry.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

I did some research, and I found a recommendation for a 25 pistol. The reasoning was it was better than nothing.

What do you think of carrying a 25 handgun into the back country. It certainly is lighter than my 45. That is one benefit. My reference was worried about weight.

He also would commonly carry a 22 rifle out into the woods to hunt small game.

His backup was a KA-Bar (standing for Kill A Bear) knife.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

The .25 ACP pistol is considered to be an effective defense against bears, but only if you hike with a companion.
If you are attacked by a bear, you use your .25 ACP pistol to shoot your companion in the knee.
Then, since you are now the speedier of the two of you, you escape while the bear eats your companion.

A man much wiser than I once observed that the best way to protect yourself with a .25 ACP pistol is to cover it completely in Vaseline.
He continued by saying that if you shoot a bad guy with it, you will make him so angry at you that he will take your pistol from you and shove it up your nether orifice.
Since it will have been made slippery by the Vaseline, it will thus do you the least harm.

Pistols firing the .22 Long Rifle rimfire cartridge are almost exactly as ballistically powerful (if that is the correct word to use) as those firing the .25 ACP cartridge.
But .22 rimfire cartridges cost less than half of what .25 ACP cartridges cost, and .22 rimfire guns are more accurate than .25 ACP guns.
This comparison should give you the inkling that the .25 ACP cartridge will not protect you from bears, bad people, wolves, coyotes, rabid dogs, or even bunny rabbits. Mice? Maybe.

If you want to carry a gun, carry an effective gun, and learn to be effective with it. Otherwise, don't carry a gun.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

I find myself carrying a S&W Shield 9mm with the Underwood Extreme Penetration Round. The round goes deep and causes a bigger wound channel. Most black bears and humans are wimps when they get hit and run for the hills if they don't die on the spot. You still have the ability to get a head or neck shot with it to kill the bear. Regardless of what folks say a handgun doesn't have the ability to stop a critter unless you hit the nervous system. Even if the bear doesn't die right away it will learn not to mess with people anymore. The chances of that happening are low. Now regarding crime on the trail it is low but there are times you will sleep better knowing you can defend yourself. I see hikers on all kinds of drugs when I am out there and there are crazy people too along with feral dogs and mean hogs. There might be a low risk of getting into an accident when riding in the county roads but I still wear a seat belt.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

.22 mag revolver.

Selection of shot shell for snakes, FMJ for dire point blank bear -head shots, or defensive hollow points for 2 and 4 legged predators.

Its a surprisingly effective cartridge for the weight and there are a couple selections out there.

That said, in the wild, you're not likely to need it as a walking stick will probably be more effective for wild life.
However in our urban rail-trail areas, 2 legged predators are finding the pickings a little easier so an escalation of equipment would be in order,
say a .380 or a nice 9x19 compact like my CZ PCR.

As for one size fits all, I doubt you will find one, and as you move from state to state, you have the convolution of CCW laws, Handgun Hunting permits,
or even protected specie [DON'T shoot up a massasauga thinking its a timber rattler].


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## BZimm (Feb 29, 2016)

I am airing out a new Glock 23 right now. My secondary reason for this handgun was when I am in the woods. Bear, wolf, coyote and other miscreants are all possible. I wouldn't be comfortable carrying anything less than 0.40.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Make sure that you differentiate between a movie and real life.
> The two rarely coincide.


Thanks for your help! Since you have about 1,000 times more experience than I do, I have to ask for helpful clarification. You seem to be really good at assisting people. So, can you post some "useful" examples of the point you are trying to make.

This might help me and others.

Again thanks,


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Thanks for your help! Since you have about 1,000 times more experience than I do, I have to ask for helpful clarification. You seem to be really good at assisting people. So, can you post some "useful" examples of the point you are trying to make.
> 
> This might help me and others.
> 
> Again thanks,


See the PM that I'm just now sending you.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I originally sent the following as a PM, but, since the OP thinks that my input might help others, as a second thought I am posting the information I sent him in my PM publickly here.

*I Wrote:*
"Make sure that you differentiate between a movie and real life. The two rarely coincide."

*You Answered:*
"Thanks for your help! Since you have about 1,000 times more experience than I do, I have to ask for helpful clarification. You seem to be really good at assisting people. So, can you post some 'useful' examples of the point you are trying to make. This might help me and others..."

OK. Here goes...

It should be pretty obvious that the things that you see in movies are scripted and controlled, and the dangerous stuff is carefully planned and done by professional stunt-persons.
But in real life, everything is an unknown until it's actually happening and nothing is controlled, and everything that's dangerous happens in real time to completely unprepared people.

For instance: Naïve people see gunplay in movies and come away with the impression that shooting is easy to do. Remember the old Westerns, in which the heroes routinely shot guns out of the hands of the bad guys? This is not real. It can't be done.

Well, the same sort of untruths can be said about the movie about bears to which you referred. It is my understanding that it is rare for the bears we have in the "Lower 48" to attack people, unless you get between a momma bear and her cubs, or unless you bring food into your tent with you at night and a pre-hibernation-hungry bear just happens to walk by. (Bears in Alaska are different.)
Unless something very unusual happens, you are not going to become a bear's lunch. Normal bears don't eat people (except in Alaska). Momma bear may maul and kill you because she thought that you were threatening her cub, but she won't eat you.
Normal, "Lower 48" bears are more afraid of people than people are afraid of bears.
Noise is the best defense against bears. Let them know that you're coming.

Guns for bears? Think big-and-powerful. Bears are hard to kill quickly: If one is "on" you, and you kill it, it will still do you significant damage before its death takes full effect and the attack stops.
A pistol which will quickly kill a bear, especially when it's already "on" you, will be very heavy to carry and very hard to shoot. Think: .44 Magnum revolver. But also think: Expert's tool. A bear-killing pistol is not something that a beginner can carry with him "just in case." Using it effectively, even on an up-close bear, requires lots and lots of both manipulation and shooting practice.
But to effectively use a bear-killing pistol, you first have to learn quick and effective pistol shooting with a milder, lesser gun. Then you "work yourself up" to the powerful bear-killer, step-by-step.
It's a life's work.

Once again, bear-avoidance is the best defense. Let them know that you are coming. Make noise as you hike. Stay alert so that you see the cub before momma sees you. Be particularly careful around berry bushes (although I know several people who have safely shared berry patches with bears).

Now, people are another problem entirely. Bad people are predators who want to harm you, which is quite different from bears.
A gun is an excellent defense against people. But, once again, pistol shooting is a skill that requires lots of practice. You can't simply carry a gun "just in case." Preparation is required, as is life-long practice.
A gun to protect you against people need not be either powerful or heavy. But the lighter and less powerful the gun is, the more skilled you need to be. That's because only quick accuracy is effective, and you can only make up for less power with more accuracy.
The smaller the pistol, the harder it is to shoot quickly, accurately, and effectively. Small guns are experts' tools, just as very powerful guns are. So, once again, you need to start out with a "normal-size" gun, and work your way to proficiency with it before you "graduate" to a small, lightweight, maybe-less-powerful pistol.

So there you have it.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

There is a video of some nut waiving his pistol about and a police marksman with a specialist rifle shot the pistol out of his hand.
Considering all the factors - especially: where is the bullet going to wind up, it was a remarkable and very rare shot.

It definitely aint like the movies out there.


As for hiking, my number 1 fear would be to happen upon a drug deal. Them 2 legged varmints are cunning and nasty.

No 2. would be feral dogs.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Excellent synopsis, Steve (as usual).


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...But the OP didn't seem to like it.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Like it or not he needs to hear it. In Western North Carolina it is 2 legged, feral dogs wild boars, coyotes. rabid raccoons finally snakes. I travel back country a lot mostly on horse back so I am not bothered by most because the noise a horse makes walking. Now at camps is where the biggest dangers arise the horses are tied up and they are a prey animal. I have an F-250 truck with a 3 horse trailer several thousand dollars worth of tact and camping supplies, which is a tempting target for a thief.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I originally sent the following as a PM, but, since the OP thinks that my input might help others, as a second thought I am posting the information I sent him in my PM publickly here.
> 
> *I Wrote:*
> "Make sure that you differentiate between a movie and real life. The two rarely coincide."
> ...


Thanks Steve for the information, to better formulate this tread the following question could have been asked instead of the question that I asked. This newer question would be amusing but more enlightening.

So, the question probably could have been: what are some stupid things to do with a handgun while camping. Or, what are some blooper videos showing people forgetting to treat a pistol as a dangerous weapon. What are some stupid accidents people have been involved in because they did not think before they acted. Thus, this question applies not only to the situation of backpacking but every other situation in life while carrying a hand gun. Backpacking is a subset of a much larger set of situations. By talking about the much easier set of situations you get a better feeling of smaller sets of situations like backpacking.

So, as an example you should not throw a bullet into a campfire. You shouldn't shoot into the air for fun. While hiking through thick brush you shouldn't blindly shoot into the brush. You shouldn't sleep with your handgun in your sleeping bag next to your hand. Your handgun shouldn't be packed loosely in a backpack when where it can accidentally misfire. You shouldn't flaunt your handgun in front of others.

Those are things that come to the mind of a novice!

Thank you Steve


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> ...you should not throw a bullet into a campfire...


It's not as big a deal as you might believe.

If you throw a _cartridge_ (not a "bullet") into a fire, there will be a loud noise, and the campfire will be rearranged somewhat, but if there's a fire ring or pit, there shouldn't be any real danger. (A "bullet" is an inert lump of metal, which will only melt.)

To make the bullet of a cartridge move about with any force, the cartridge must be contained in a way that requires the expanding gasses generated by the burning gunpowder to be focussed upon the base of that bullet. If the cartridge is uncontained, the force of the expanding gasses acts globally.

Of the components of a loaded cartridge, the bullet is the heaviest (has the most mass). So if the force of the expanding gasses is not focussed upon it, it will tend to remain in place (since, as Newton told us, an object at rest tends to stay at rest).
Meanwhile, most of the force involved will be working to burst the cartridge case (made of thin brass), and that force will expend itself radially while doing so.

The thin brass of the cartridge case has little mass, so the force we're discussing won't move it much. Further, being ductile rather than brittle, it tends to stay in one piece (albeit now blooming-flower shape), so shards of it don't scatter around.
The case and the bullet will indeed separate, but they won't go far from one-another.

Thus, although it is a stupid prank to do, and although it presents a fire danger from scattered burning pieces of campfire wood, and although the noise will be unpleasant, throwing a loaded cartridge into a fire will most likely cause no direct harm to anyone who is near the campfire.



SelfDefenseNovice said:


> ...You shouldn't sleep with your handgun in your sleeping bag next to your hand...


No. Instead, it should be under whatever you're using for a pillow, and preferably in its holster.
Wherever it is, it should be under your direct control, and should be placed so that it can come immediately to hand in an emergency.

All of your other observations about appropriate behavior are entirely correct, and are obviously the result of good, careful thinking.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Instead, it should be under whatever you're using for a pillow, and preferably in its holster.
> Wherever it is, it should be under your direct control, and should be placed so that it can come immediately to hand in an emergency.


With a magazine in my 45, pointed away from my body under my pillow, in leather holster, thanks


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The .25 ACP pistol is considered to be an effective defense against bears, but only if you hike with a companion.
> If you are attacked by a bear, you use your .25 ACP pistol to shoot your companion in the knee.
> Then, since you are now the speedier of the two of you, you escape while the bear eats your companion.
> 
> ...


Very good "Steve", I got a good laugh out of your first two paragraphs. All kidding aside I never go anywhere without at least a .45 and at the very least a "nine". I don't know, I've done a lot of hiking in what some would consider rough terrain the extra weight of an effective firearm was never an issue. I usually carry more than one.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Note: I'm not "Steve."
My name really is Steve.
(Well, actually Steven.)


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Note: I'm not "Steve."
> My name really is Steve.
> (Well, actually Steven.)


My name isn't really "Desertman" either, at least that's not what my mother or wife calls me. Just a moniker for the place we love, a vast radiant wilderness, full of mystery and suspense.


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## AZdave (Oct 23, 2015)

desertman said:


> My name isn't really "Desertman" either, at least that's not what my mother or wife calls me. Just a moniker for the place we love, a vast radiant wilderness, full of mystery and suspense.
> 
> View attachment 2175
> View attachment 2176
> ...


@desertman Like the pics. Seen some similar territory on my hikes.

I'll join the "I'm not" game. You can call me sir, and my name is David. ;-)

Just taken today, hay fever season at Lost Dutchman.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Boy! Them saguaro cactus: Always giving you the finger!
And some of 'em, in Disneyland, even talk to you!


Every time I look at The Great American Desert, I get thirsty.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Every time I look at The Great American Desert, I get thirsty.


Same as every time ya get into a sleeping bag ya gotta pee.............


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...Yeah. It's caused by some arcane chemical that they treat all sleeping-bag liners with.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

AZdave said:


> @desertman Like the pics. Seen some similar territory on my hikes.
> 
> I'll join the "I'm not" game. You can call me sir, and my name is David. ;-)
> 
> Just taken today, hay fever season at Lost Dutchman.


Nice shot of the "Superstitions". You every find any of the "Lost Dutchman's" gold?


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Boy! Them saguaro cactus: Always giving you the finger!
> And some of 'em, in Disneyland, even talk to you!
> 
> Every time I look at The Great American Desert, I get thirsty.


Maybe this will quench your thirst. We've even got our own traffic cop directing the lizard's. They'll even scratch your back for you. Never had a conversation with them though. There's also a whole lot of "Nothing" out here. Even "Snoopy" loves it.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Yeah. That's the saguaro to whom I was last speaking.
He didn't say much, though.

And I'm very well acquainted with the Colorado River: It's where our water came from, when we lived in Lost Angels.

I hope that nobody will knock Snoopy's head off, as some idiot recently did to a balanced rock in a National Park.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

mmais68569 said:


> Let me state something as far as backpacking & firearms & trouble. I have personally hiked 1500 miles of the Appalachian trail & over 500 miles of the Florida Trail. My pack is 30-35 lbs which includes 2 1/2 liters of water tent sleep pad change of clothes & 5 days of food. I have encountered 11 bears in the 1500 miles on the AT including a mother with 2 cubs not over 50 feet away. I used to carry a firearm but found no need to have it just an extra 1 Lb + to carry. In my opinion you are safer in the woods without a firearm then you are with 2 firearms in any Wal-Mart parking lot in the USA. The criminals are not going to exert the energy to hike into the woods to cause trouble when they can go to any Mall in town. Leave the gun home & get out & enjoy what nature has to offer.
> 
> Mike
> 
> PS Forgot to mention I am 65 years young & enjoy getting out.


You are indeed more fortunate than I am. I used to hike but gave it up after encountering the two-legged types who somehow found the energy to hike into the woods.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

S&W does make a lightweight 44 Mag - the Model 328PD. The Glock Mod. 20 (10mm) would also be a good choice & has more capacity. Both are rather large guns, but the S&W is very light if weight is a factor. From personal experience, if you're wearing a backpack, you might consider a crossdraw holster. The backpack makes strong side wear & drawing rather awkward. Another option: A chest holster:

Guides Choice Chest Holster, Original Alaskan Holster

A video of this type of holster with a heavy gun in 454 Casull:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

win231 said:


> S&W does make a lightweight 44 Mag - the Model 328PD. The Glock Mod. 20 (10mm) would also be a good choice & has more capacity...


Remember that the OP calls himself *SelfDefenseNovice*.
I am not sure that a .44 Magnum, or even a .40 Glock, would be an appropriate defensive weapon for a novice with undeveloped shooting skills.


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## AZdave (Oct 23, 2015)

desertman said:


> Nice shot of the "Superstitions". You every find any of the "Lost Dutchman's" gold?


The photo was made with 4 or 5 of my cell phone pictures spliced together with software.

No gold, but I saw broken Dr. Pepper bottles and rusted tin cans, lots on four legged animal waste. And we didn't even have time to finish the hike.
It also looks like the park rangers patrol frequently. Very crowded and no shade. Now I am thirsty.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

AZdave said:


> The photo was made with 4 or 5 of my cell phone pictures spliced together with software.
> 
> No gold, *but I saw broken Dr. Pepper bottles and rusted tin cans,* lots on four legged animal waste. And we didn't even have time to finish the hike.
> It also looks like the park rangers patrol frequently. Very crowded and no shade. Now I am thirsty.


Doesn't that just piss you off? It does me. Bunch of freakin' slobs. I'd love to shove them into a patch of prickly pear, they'd be pickin' glochid's out of their ass for months.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Remember that the OP calls himself *SelfDefenseNovice*.
> I am not sure that a .44 Magnum, or even a .40 Glock, would be an appropriate defensive weapon for a novice with undeveloped shooting skills.


He did state that he shoots a Taurus 45 every month, so I doubt his shooting skills would be "undeveloped."


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