# LEE 3 or 4 die set????



## fusil

Salut,
I'm at my wits end.:smt021
I'm looking to order my 2 next sets of dies for my 9mm & 45 ACP.
I have the die set for loading 38spl's-de-cap/flare & powder/ seat/ roll crimp.
The fellas at the range this morning have totally confused me (which aint hard).
Why do I need the 'factory crimp' if the 3rd die seats and crimps???:smt102

fusil

_*ps
I'll say thank you to TOF & Steve in advance.:smt168*_


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## Steve M1911A1

*Fusil*;
First of all, there are two different types of crimp: the _roll_ crimp and the _taper_ crimp.
The *roll crimp* is used mostly in revolver cartridges, because a revolver subjects each unfired cartridge in its cylinder to repeated recoil forces, as each round is fired. Further, most revolver cartridges are held in place in the gun's cylinder by the cartridge's rim, so the shape of the front edge of the cartridge case is not important to the weapon's function.
The *taper crimp* is used mostly in semi-automatic pistol cartridges. Although the taper crimp is not quite as strong as a deep roll crimp, the way the semi-auto's magazine holds its cartridges subjects each of them to somewhat less perceived recoil, so the taper crimp is quite strong enough. Further, since most semi-auto cartridges are "rimless," the cartridge is held in its proper place in the pistol's chamber by the edge of the case's mouth, so a roll crimp would let the cartridge slide too far forward. (Or, if the roll crimp were set farther forward, holding the case farther back, the case would be too long for its chamber after firing, when the roll crimp has "unrolled.")
A "combination seating die," one that both seats and crimps, _must_ be of the roll-crimp variety because the crimp has to happen well after the bullet is fully seated. A taper crimp requires so much case length that the bullet would be shaved or compressed incorrectly, if a die tried to do both seating and taper-crimping at the same time. Thus, a seating die used to load semi-auto cartridges can't taper crimp, and there is a need for a separate crimping die.
When you load revolver cartridges, you could use a combination seating-and-crimping die. But you would get better results, and more control over the process, if you would separate the seating and the crimping operations.
Bullet seating is a delicate process, and balancing the exact depth of the bullet in the case with the exact placement of the final crimp is a difficult operation. It is much easier to do, and much easier to control, when you use a separate seating die and a separate crimping die. For revolver cartridges, the two dies could be exactly the same: one, for seating, is set up so it will not crimp; and the other, for crimping, should have its seating parts removed so it will only crimp. Or, you could buy a combination seater-crimper for the seating operation, and a special-purpose _roll_-crimping die.

At any rate, your question was about 9mm and .45 ACP, both semi-auto cartridges. It is my strong opinion that, in both cases, you need a separate taper-crimping die.

Does that answer your question satisfactorily? Is it clear and comprehensible? If it's not, ask for more information.


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## TOF

I hope you haven't converted your 4 stage turret to 3 cause I believe you would be better served with a Factory Crimp die for all calibers it is available for.

Even your revolver rounds will benefit should you buy one for them.

I am still using my 3 stage Lee Pro 1000 because I am cheap but have decided to treat myself on my birthday with a Loadmaster just so I can seperate the seating and crimp process.

I prefer SJHP or SJSP bullets for my .357. When I use the combined seat and crimp the bullet nose is deformed slightly by the pressure required in the final few thousandth's of an inch. Seperate crimp will eliminate bullet deformation.

I recently had a couple of 9MM bullets load into the case slightly crooked creating a slight bulge on one side. I didn't realize it untill it failed to extract. A factory crimp die would have also Post Sized the case and prevented the FTE. 

Try it you will like it.


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## mccoy

TOF,
Have you noticed any increased accuracy from the SJSP bullets in your Ruger?

I'm asking that because I heard one revolver competitor here saying the most accurate bullet he ever used for the S&W 627 Pc revo is a SJSP.

So maybe that's a kind of bullet wich tends to yield an across the board accuracy regardless of the weapon.


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## TOF

mccoy said:


> TOF,
> Have you noticed any increased accuracy from the SJSP bullets in your Ruger?
> 
> I'm asking that because I heard one revolver competitor here saying the most accurate bullet he ever used for the S&W 627 Pc revo is a SJSP.
> 
> So maybe that's a kind of bullet wich tends to yield an across the board accuracy regardless of the weapon.


Hello mccoy,

I don't consider them more accurate then the others I have used. The only ones I have used to date are Berry Plated RN 158Gr, Bushwhacker hard cast 158Gr. Hornady 158Gr LSWC, Winchester. Remington and Zero SJSP and SJHP. They have all yielded 5/8 to 1 inch groups at 15 yards with the right powder charge. I typicly chrono and accuracy test several powder weights when using new style, weight or brand bullets. If they will not meet the 1 inch at 15 yard test from sandbags they become fodder for trade or to be loaded real soft for my wife to practice with. So far none of my .357 bullets have failed meet that criteria for at least one of the powder settings.

I tried some 9MM Berry Plated hollow points a couple of years back that went through the target sideways at 15 no matter what powder charge. I believe they were undersize. Needless to say I don't buy them anymore.

I have shot at steel plate targets at up to 75 yards offhand and usualy hit them but havent shot bulseyes at those distances.

I purchased some Hornady 180Gr XTP's for an upcoming Elk hunt. Haven't loaded them yet but will do so in a couple of weeks. We will be testing them at a bit more distance. I will try to remember to give you a report.


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## mccoy

Thanks very much TOF, I'd appreciate the report. Elk hunting with 357 magnum? Didn't know it was possible.

I've settled now with 158 grs LRN bullets on 38 sp cases and quick powder, I've noticed that, when my hand is steady, the combination is pretty much accurate, the indian requires more fine work than the arrow yet. Got to experiment quicker powder though.


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## TOF

mccoy said:


> Thanks very much TOF, I'd appreciate the report. Elk hunting with 357 magnum? Didn't know it was possible.
> 
> I've settled now with 158 grs LRN bullets on 38 sp cases and quick powder, I've noticed that, when my hand is steady, the combination is pretty much accurate, the indian requires more fine work than the arrow yet. Got to experiment quicker powder though.


The .357 will only be used on an Elk at close range. My Grandson will be using it but will also have a .308 along for the ride. We can usualy get withn 25 to 30 yards so it should be a relatively easy thing to do.

I've taken them with rifle and bow in years past so have a pretty good idea what it takes.

It won't happen till October.

tumbleweed


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