# Ruger LCP



## hargroder

I just put down a deposit for the new Ruger LCP which should be coming in mid March. I own a Keltec P32 that has been flawless for over 300 rounds. I wanted a 380 Keltec when I purchased the 32 but none were available in my area. I know some of you are saying that I should wait until Ruger gets all the bugs out of a new model before I buy one, but I have 2 Rugers now and are very satisfied with them. I am kind of impulsive and just had to have it. When I do receive it I will post on how it shoots. Hope I am not making a mistake, but I will always have the Keltec to fall back on.


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## Baldy

It's a proven design and I don't think Ruger will change anything inside the pistol. Looks like Kel-tec may be making them for Ruger:smt104. I know they changed over two of their production lines to making the 3AT&.32's as they can't fill the orders fast enough. Maybe they are parteners?:smt017


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## hargroder

Baldy, its funny you say that because they look very similiar. My receipt from the gun store says Kel Tec Ruger 3701. Maybe they are partners.


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## AZ Outlaws

Hmmmm... it looks interesting, very interesting.

I've been looking for a small compact for carry. I'll have to check it out. On the other hand, 
there are already some good 9mm pistols out there which raises the question, "which is a better 
round for self defense"? I'd have to say the 9mm wins hands down, on paper at least. That is 
unless you are looking for a super small, ultra light weight pistol.

I pulled the following numbers from  this site:

.380 ACP Caliber: (9 mm Short, 9 x 17 mm, 9 mm Kurz)
One Shot Stopping Success: 51-70% (Actual)
With Recommended Cartridges: 57-70%
Self Defense Rating: Good

9 mm Parabellum Caliber: (9 mm Lugar, 9 mm NATO, 9 x 19 mm, 9 mm)
One Shot Stopping Success: 63-91% (Actual)
With Recommended Cartridges: 79-91%
Self Defense Rating: Better

When you crunch the numbers, that's a big difference. The new Ruger LCP may be a fine pistol, 
but I think I would stick with the bigger and heavier 9mm Luger for personal protection. We'll see.

Comments and other opinions welcomed....


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## hargroder

9 mm is better but once I got used to the small size and easy conceilability of a pocket gun like the Keltec it would be hard for me to switch. I do have a M&P 9mm and Ruger 38 special but they do not fit in my pocket.


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## AZ Outlaws

hargroder said:


> Baldy, its funny you say that because they look very similiar. My receipt from the gun store
> says Kel Tec Ruger 3701. Maybe they are partners.


Here you go (the Ruger is the better looking of the two). Maybe they will come out with a 9mm at a later 
date.


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## Baldy

Well my 3at is used for a back only when I leave the house. I allways have something else bigger.


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## hideit

yea why not 
a single stack 4 shot mag and one in the chamber 
that would equal a lot of the snub nose 5 shot revolvers


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## Baldy

There are 6 in the mag and 1 in the pipe for a KT. To me they are a last chance line of defense. My wife hates them but yet she shoots a Colt Government .380acp all the time. They are a little bear and take some getting use to.


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## forestranger

Bottom line- LCP is a clone of P3AT. Whether it's an improved clone, time will tell. 380 is usually BUG to BUG for me and very rarely carry only 380. It's not the gun I don't trust, it's the caliber. DPX helps the comfort factor a little.


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## Guest

I agree the 9 MM is a much better self defense cartridge but the range on stopping power is 63-91%. What does that mean? I would guess somewhere in the 80's but to have a range on a quantifiable number doesn't make sense.


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## forestranger

Thinks range relates to type of ammo used. FMJ on low end with premium JHPs on upper end.


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## bluehandgun

the LCP is a locked breech gun, not a blowback like the kel-tec.. the LCP also sports a slide stop... that right there makes the LCP an improvement over the keltec.... not to mention the all around better quality, fit and finish and look of the gun... for example, comments from someone who has held a LCP;

"I've held the LCP the keltec feels like aluminum foil while the LCP feels like billet aluminum"


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## Mike Barham

AZ Outlaws said:


> I pulled the following numbers from  this site:
> 
> .380 ACP Caliber: (9 mm Short, 9 x 17 mm, 9 mm Kurz)
> One Shot Stopping Success: 51-70% (Actual)
> With Recommended Cartridges: 57-70%
> Self Defense Rating: Good
> 
> 9 mm Parabellum Caliber: (9 mm Lugar, 9 mm NATO, 9 x 19 mm, 9 mm)
> One Shot Stopping Success: 63-91% (Actual)
> With Recommended Cartridges: 79-91%
> Self Defense Rating: Better


I looked at the referenced site. Those numbers look _very_ suspiciously like they came from the long-discredited Marshall-Sanow One Shot Stop "study," which is so replete with holes, impossible math, and misinformation that I am unaware of anyone (outside of some gullible and/or agenda-driven gun rag writers) who actually takes it seriously.

The OSS "study" is taken apart pretty well here, by some well-qualified people:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs31.htm

If they are pulling from some other documented source, it would be very interesting to know about. I didn't find a reference on the site, though maybe I just missed it.


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## Wandering Man

bluehandgun said:


> the LCP is a locked breech gun, not a blowback like the kel-tec.. the LCP also sports a slide stop... that right there makes the LCP an improvement over the keltec.... not to mention the all around better quality, fit and finish and look of the gun... for example, comments from someone who has held a LCP;
> 
> "I've held the LCP the keltec feels like aluminum foil while the LCP feels like billet aluminum"


The slide stop would be a nice addition. I still haven't seen one show up in the local shops. I'm looking forward to seeing them in person.

WM


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## Mike Barham

bluehandgun said:


> the LCP is a locked breech gun, not a blowback like the kel-tec..


Where in the world did you get the idea that the P3AT is a BLOWBACK? Have you actually ever held, operated or fired one? http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/p3at.html



> the LCP also sports a slide stop... that right there makes the LCP an improvement over the keltec....


Not if it makes the gun significantly wider/thicker (though the difference appears slight, with the KelTec at .77" and the Ruger at .82"). The Ruger is an ounce heavier, too. I do not know anyone who plans on speed reloads with a little polymer pocket .380, anyway, but maybe there are some.



> not to mention the all around better quality, fit and finish and look of the gun... for example, comments from someone who has held a LCP;
> 
> "I've held the LCP the keltec feels like aluminum foil while the LCP feels like billet aluminum"


Well, my P3AT doesn't feel like aluminum foil, so I expect these are just biased words from a Ruger guy who is offended that Ruger had to copy a gun perceived as low-rent, just to make a decent pocket gun.


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## bluehandgun

did not post to ruffle feathers. 

my apologies for thinking keltec was blowback - i honestly thought it was. 

whatever the case may be, there are copies of copies of copies out there in the gun world. big deal. 

now the world has two choices, the ruger or a keltec. competition is good.

have a great day!


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## Mike Barham

bluehandgun said:


> did not post to ruffle feathers.
> 
> my apologies for thinking keltec was blowback - i honestly thought it was.
> 
> whatever the case may be, there are copies of copies of copies out there in the gun world. big deal.
> 
> now the world has two choices, the ruger or a keltec. competition is good.
> 
> have a great day!


I was harsh in my reply. I apologize.

I agree completely that competition is a good thing. What I really hope is that Ruger uses the LCP as a springboard into something like a good "pocket nine" that is reasonably priced. THAT would really be something!


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## AZ Outlaws

Mike Barham said:


> I looked at the referenced site. Those numbers look _very_ suspiciously like they came from the long-discredited Marshall-Sanow One Shot Stop "study," which is so replete with holes, impossible math, and misinformation that I am unaware of anyone (outside of some gullible and/or agenda-driven gun rag writers) who actually takes it seriously.
> 
> The OSS "study" is taken apart pretty well here, by some well-qualified people:
> 
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs31.htm
> 
> If they are pulling from some other documented source, it would be very interesting to know about. I didn't find a reference on the site, though maybe I just missed it.


Thanks for pointing that out and for the additional data. I'm by no means an expert, I was just quoting some information I thought came from a reputable source.

Okay, to save time and avail myself of your firearm knowldge, how do the qualified experts rate the .380 against the 9mm? Or, is there even that much difference between the two? From my uneducated point of view, I'd say 9mm is the better all around self defense round, but I have only caliber size to base my opinion on.

I'm sorry to hargroder for have taken his thread off topic....


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## hargroder

AZ Outlaw, no apology needed. I enjoy reading any comments about guns. I also enjoy watching Mike Barham fly off the handle! No offense Mike, I like your passion of firearms.


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## forestranger

The LCP has a manual slide lock for cleaning. Just got back from range where my 2+ year old "aluminum foil"(p3at) performed flawlessly for 50 rds including 7 DPX. (Two PF9s did the same thru 100 rds.) I own 4 Rugers and have owned 8 so I'm not bashing them but LCP is a "copy" of the p3at just like Taurus copied Beretta and S&W. Maybe it's a better copy. Have to be much better to beat my p3at. Time will tell. It is prettier.


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## Mike Barham

9mm generally penetrates more reliably and expands to greater diameter than .380, so it causes more tissue damage and destruction at the necessary depths (which is the goal). The degree to which it is better depends on the load, and how well it penetrates and expands compared to a given .380 load.


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## hideit

mike said, "....from the long-discredited Marshall-Sanow One Shot Stop "study," which is so replete with holes, impossible math, and misinformation that I am unaware of anyone (outside of some gullible and/or agenda-driven gun rag writers) who actually takes it seriously."

*my question is : what is the drawbck/criticisms to relying on the hatcher formulas?*

I have a long list of RSPs based on the hatcher formula - i think they made sense -


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## hideit

".... (though the difference appears slight, with the KelTec at .77" and the Ruger at .82"). The Ruger is an ounce heavier, too."

it will be interesting to see long time tests on the LCP but imho I do think that in the metalurgy world, a little different metal, a little more thickness and weight CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE in reliability. i am ordering an lcp this weekend when the snow and ice clears!


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## Todd

Never got into the whole "1 Shot Stopping Power" thing. I know that if I ever was in a defensive situation I sure would not be just firing one shot and waiting to see if it stopped the guy. That being said, I'm not worried when I carry my P3AT as my primary.


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## Mike Barham

hideit said:


> mike said, "....from the long-discredited Marshall-Sanow One Shot Stop "study," which is so replete with holes, impossible math, and misinformation that I am unaware of anyone (outside of some gullible and/or agenda-driven gun rag writers) who actually takes it seriously."
> 
> *my question is : what is the drawbck/criticisms to relying on the hatcher formulas?*
> 
> I have a long list of RSPs based on the hatcher formula - i think they made sense -


Hatcher didn't take bullet expansion into account. This made sense at the time, since there were no good expanding pistol bullets. It is far less relevant now.


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## Mike Barham

hideit said:


> ".... (though the difference appears slight, with the KelTec at .77" and the Ruger at .82"). The Ruger is an ounce heavier, too."
> 
> it will be interesting to see long time tests on the LCP but imho I do think that in the metalurgy world, a little different metal, a little more thickness and weight CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE in reliability. i am ordering an lcp this weekend when the snow and ice clears!


My KelTec is 100% reliable, so I don't know how the Ruger could be better than that.

The whole appeal behind these guns is that they are small/light/flat. Making them bigger and heavier seems like going in the wrong direction.

The Ruger may perhaps be more durable than the KelTec, but if my KelTec breaks after 5000 rounds, I'll consider my purchase money well-spent and just get another cookie-cutter P3AT for under $300.

None of this is to say the Ruger is a bad gun or anything. I just don't really see why I should choose it in preference to a lighter, smaller, cheaper KelTec.


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## Wandering Man

Mike Barham said:


> 9mm generally penetrates more reliably and expands to greater diameter than .380, so it causes more tissue damage and destruction at the necessary depths (which is the goal). The degree to which it is better depends on the load, and how well it penetrates and expands compared to a given .380 load.


I had the opportunity to a sanity eval on a guy who shot a woman with a .380.

I read the medical reports as part of my evaluation.

I think she would have been just as dead with a 9mm.

WM


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## hideit

well today i ordered the ruger LCP
the price quoted was $286
that puts it very close to the 3AT
my wife and i like the looks of the LCP over the 3AT
the extra ounce does not bother me at all
i think i'll have to try the cor-bon dpx 
any other cartridges best to use for SD?


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## forestranger

Have tried most of the "premium" 380 loads and Dpx chronographs the fastest, expands the most reliably in wetpack, and has about as good or better penetration as anything but fmj. It's expensive! Second choice for me would probably be Fed. HS or Rem. GS.


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## Mike Barham

I was reading John Farnam's thoughts on the SHOT Show, and came across these two things:

"_Ruger is now marketing their new, seven-shot, LCP, which is a near-perfect copy of the Kel-Tec 380_."

"_Unlike the Kel-Tec version, Ruger's has a manual slide lock and a *distinctively shallow trigger reset*, both significant improvements._"

While I don't find the slide lock much of a factor on a pocket pistol, a better trigger reset is _always_ welcome! If my interest in the KelTec PF9 doesn't pan out, I may look at the LCP to replace the P3AT that has been appropriated by my wife in my absence.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html


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## Cthulhu

Handled a non-firing factory proto Ruger LCP this past weekend. 
The frames construction and materials feel much more solid than Kel Tec and the trigger quality is noticeably improved over the P3AT. The slide stop is nice feature, especially for range use, and is not obtrusive or snag prone. If the final production pieces retain the same level of quality, people will definitely pay $20-$30 more for the Ruger name and improved feel/trigger, especially if the two are compared side by side as in a retail setting. 

The KelTec is a derivative design, so Ruger or anyone else can copy it and market it. I think Ruger's decision to copy the well established P3AT was a smart one from the marketing standpoint. Since Bill Sr died and his son turned over control of the company, the Ruger execs have seen the light and noticed markets out there that Ruger is/was missing out on. Notice Ruger seeking out those markets where people previously just modified existing Ruger products and did the same from the factory.

Accuracy Speaks Mini-14 = Ruger Mini-14 Target
Volquartsen = Ruger 10/22 Charger
Wildwest Guns = Ruger Alaskan
Bowen = Ruger 4" Redhawk & Ruger 5 Shot SRH.
CAS Shooters = Montado

Ruger wanted to get in the CCW market and do so quickly. The KelTec P3AT is a great design that a competing original designed product by Ruger (or anyone else) would do little to improve upon. So rather than reinventing the wheel, Ruger is adapting a proven gun and using its mass production infrastructure to improve the products feel and perceived level of quality while keeping costs low and getting Ruger in the market immediately.
We as consumers benefit all over, as Kel Tec will either lower costs to compete or get moving on products Ruger doesn't offer, like their .308 Bullpup rifle.


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## big dutchman

i just bought a keltec p3at and couldn't be happier. 100% flawless in 600 rounds so far (short of twice when i purposly limp wristed to see how finicky it was). the lcp 380 doesn't interest me right now, but if ruger does alright with the p3at knock off, i assume they will go into the pf9 type design. that would interest me quite a bit. i am willing to pay a little more for the ruger name and quality. even an upgrade in steel selection would make the price worthwhile.


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## leeburl

*A good holster for the LCP*

I just ordered an LCP. My first pocket pistol but own several autos including a G19 which I love and revolvers. Shoot 44 mag in a Super Blackhawk with no problem at all thanks to Hogue. So a couple of questions if you guys could help out.

What does the recoil compare to?

What is a good conceal carry holster. I'm leaning towards a pocket holster since I live in the hot south and ankle (shorts) or sholder holster would be exposed. It's hot down here!

How much of an outline does the pocket holster really make as I'd like to carry almost all the time?

Thanks in advance for your guidance.


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