# Rifle Positioning



## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Hey all. I have a little bit of an issue. First off, it is really hard for me to shoot a rifle standing up. My left arm gets way too tired way too fast and then it just becomes a waste of ammo (and I have tried several ways of holding it, most suggested by seasoned rifle shooters). I thought it was just my K31, but I have the same problems with the lighter AK47. 

However, I can't lay prone with the rifle like I would really like to (the K31). I only have access to an indoor range and they do not allow shooting prone. I also can't kneel. So my options are stand or sit. But when I sit, I can't get low enough to aim the rifle correctly. I spent 20 minutes today just trying to get into a good position to shoot while seated and it never did happen. I ended up putting 20 rounds down range and putting the rifle away due to my arm getting tired. But I can't get low enough, even with the rifle propped up on a sandbag, to even get my face on the stock correctly and acquire a target. If I push that seat back any further to get lower to the rifle I'm blocking everyone else from getting to the door or to the rest of the lanes. 

Propping it up on my hand with my arm on the table yields the same issue as standing. 

Any ideas? I looked into bipods, but you really can't mount one on a K31 without drilling the stock and I am not willing to drill the stock. I have tried constantly to push myself with the rifle in hopes of strengthening my left arm, but it hasn't done much good at all. Do I have any options or do I just need to basically hope to get the money up for one of these ultra expensive clubs so I can shoot prone outside?


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Get some light hand weights 1 to 5lbs and keep working with them. There's no trick method for lack of strength. You can do it while watching TV or almost anywhere. In about two weeks you'll see the difference. Good luck.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Well, I moved a 1100 lb safe the other day without breaking a sweat but can't hold up a 7 lb. rifle. LOL! I dunno.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Are you talking about a field sitting position, or sitting at the bench?

With the AK, have you tried using the front of the magazine as a makeshift vertical foregrip?


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

One word...

Sling

They aren't just for carrying the rifle.

When used properly the weight of the rifle is on your upper arm.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

bruce333 said:


> One word...
> 
> Sling
> 
> ...


I second the motion.

:smt1099


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I like slings as marksmanship aids, but I've never seen a truly satisfactory one for an AK. Then again, I don't know anyone who takes marksmanship seriously with an AK. :mrgreen:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> I only have access to an indoor range and they do not allow shooting prone. I also can't kneel.


You really need to get up to the Wake County range. You can stand, sit, kneel, lay prone. As long as you're hitting the paper, the RO's are cool with any shooting that's safe.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

I agree with both answers...

1) Strength train!
2) Get a properly fitted sling, and you'll vastly increase control, and weight shift.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

I'm so much worried about marksmanship with the AK. I just like how it feels to shoot. LOL!

The K31 has serious sling issues. It took about a year for me to land a sling that would stretch and attach correctly, and the one that did is almost as old as the rifle. I've had seasoned marksman use this rifle with that sling with no success. But all the others I've tried fitting to it won't stay on, are too tight to get a hand around, are too loose to be helpful, or just simply won't attach with the way this rifle is laid out. 

Mike: I'm bench shooting. It's actually a little stupid table they set up out there because the "bench" built into the lanes can't take the load of rifles. But when I sit at the table it is down by my hips, so when I try to sit with the rifle I'm stretched way out and it bothers my back (and blocks everyone else from being able to get by). I really, really hate that stupid table. Haven't tried that with the AK (honestly, I've only gone out on the range with it one time). I will the next time I get her out for some excersise. 

Todd: that's what everyone tells me. I need to get some time, suck it up, and take their massive safety course. I haven't done so yet because I just can't bear yet another long safety class in five years. LOL! But I'll get down there eventually.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

SuckLead, there are several companies that make monopods, bipods or shooting sticks that are tall enough to use in a standing position. Check this link for a photo that shows what some of them look like:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/detail.cfm?ProductID=766
Most of these do not attach to the rifle as they are so tall it would make moving the rifle nearly impossible; instead, they have a V-notch or padded cradle for the forearm, and the rifle simply rests on the monopod/bipod/sticks.

Hold your weapon normal shouldered position while standing, and have a friend measure the distance from the forearm to the floor (you don't have to support it yourself; rest the barrel on something about the right height). Use this floor-to-stock-belly measurement to select the right monopod/bipod/sticks height and model.

Similar devices made for shooting sitting or kneeling might also work for shooting from your range's table. Again, get someone to measure the approximate height you'll need when seated in a comfortable upright position.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> Todd: that's what everyone tells me. I need to get some time, suck it up, and take their massive safety course. I haven't done so yet because I just can't bear yet another long safety class in five years. LOL! But I'll get down there eventually.


It's really not that bad. 2 hours and most of it's range rules and tour of the facilities versus "this is a gun and the bullets come out very, very fast." It's $15 and gets you your first hour of range time. Plus, once you have your range card, it's good indefinitely; unlike some other place I know whose range card is only good for a year. :smt077


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> I'm so much worried about marksmanship with the AK. I just like how it feels to shoot. LOL!


That's cool. I sort of view AKs and M4s and such as big pistols, anyway. :mrgreen: Did you try using the mag as a makeshift VFG? That's how many of us shoot our M4s here.



> Mike: I'm bench shooting. It's actually a little stupid table they set up out there because the "bench" built into the lanes can't take the load of rifles. But when I sit at the table it is down by my hips, so when I try to sit with the rifle I'm stretched way out and it bothers my back (and blocks everyone else from being able to get by). I really, really hate that stupid table.


Can you sit on the floor and use the table that way? Bring lots of sandbags, too, since you need sandbags front and rear for proper bench shooting.

*DJ Niner's* suggestion on shooting sticks is a great thought.

Lastly, take a look at this Galco sling: http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterP3.asp?ProductID=3194&CatalogID=408. It's a little unorthodox, but I personally did the field testing with it, and it works. It can be made to fit on practically any rifle. PM me if you're interested in trying it.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> Lastly, take a look at this Galco sling: http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterP3.asp?ProductID=3194&CatalogID=408. It's a little unorthodox, but I personally did the field testing with it, and it works. It can be made to fit on practically any rifle. PM me if you're interested in trying it.


Is the rear swivel removeable? The issue I always have with slings on this rifle is the rear end of the rifle. If I remember tonight I'll take pictures of the rear end of it when I'm cleaning the rifle then. But if it can come off, that might work.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Todd said:


> It's really not that bad. 2 hours and most of it's range rules and tour of the facilities versus "this is a gun and the bullets come out very, very fast." It's $15 and gets you your first hour of range time. Plus, once you have your range card, it's good indefinitely; unlike some other place I know whose range card is only good for a year. :smt077


I'm going out tomorrow for the class. There is apparently one scheduled for 1:30 and since I'm off with nothing to do, I just found something to do. LOL! Hopefully they'll let me on the range tomorrow afternoon, too. I'll bring my handguns and my AK47 just in case. But the K31 needs a nap. LOL! I'll let the AK test the waters for my K31.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> I'm going out tomorrow for the class. There is apparently one scheduled for 1:30 and since I'm off with nothing to do, I just found something to do. LOL! Hopefully they'll let me on the range tomorrow afternoon, too. I'll bring my handguns and my AK47 just in case. But the K31 needs a nap. LOL! I'll let the AK test the waters for my K31.


There should be plenty of room on the range. The place is pretty big. Just leave the guns in the car until after class since they don't allow guns in the classroom where you'll take the class.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> Is the rear swivel removeable?


It doesn't come with swivels. Just thread the strap through the existing rear sling swivel (or whatever attachment point the K31 had). Since the strap is nylon, you can trim it if the K31 has small swivels. Just lightly melt the edges where you trimmed, to keep it from fraying.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

*Todd:* Got through the class and am now a card carrying member of the Wake County range. Wish I'd known your full name, I could have got you a free hour! Only found that out at the end of the class. But my word, what a fantastic range that was! I didn't realize they had so many lanes. Only thing I don't like is the lack of dividers. I was able to grab a net this time around to save the guy next to me from being showered with AK shells.

*Mike:* Did what you suggested with the AK and problem solved with that one. Thanks a bunch! Threw 100 rounds down range today without a problem. Need to rethink the 100 rounds before shooting handguns, though. LOL! My right arm wanted nothing to do with that Glock today and I spent the session shooting left handed. Needed the practice anyway.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

*Glad You Liked It*



SuckLead said:


> *Todd:* Got through the class and am now a card carrying member of the Wake County range. Wish I'd known your full name, I could have got you a free hour! Only found that out at the end of the class. But my word, what a fantastic range that was! I didn't realize they had so many lanes. Only thing I don't like is the lack of dividers. I was able to grab a net this time around to save the guy next to me from being showered with AK shells.


No biggie on the free hour, just glad that you liked the range. I hate when I recommend something and the person doesn't like the product or the place. The place is huge, especially considering half the time they have a Sheriff patrol car on range one and that only shuts down 25% of the ranges. I've only seen the place full once and that was the Thursday before hunting season; all the rifle lanes were full. But I was going to shoot pistol that night anyway so it didn't matter. The lack of dividers on the rifle ranges is kinda a pain, but the nets help. You should have seen it one time when it was me and 6 other guys on range 4 all with ARs. There was a lot of brass flying that night! :mrgreen:


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Todd said:


> No biggie on the free hour, just glad that you liked the range. I hate when I recommend something and the person doesn't like the product or the place. The place is huge, especially considering half the time they have a Sheriff patrol car on range one and that only shuts down 25% of the ranges. I've only seen the place full once and that was the Thursday before hunting season; all the rifle lanes were full. But I was going to shoot pistol that night anyway so it didn't matter. The lack of dividers on the rifle ranges is kinda a pain, but the nets help. You should have seen it one time when it was me and 6 other guys on range 4 all with ARs. There was a lot of brass flying that night! :mrgreen:


It's rare that I don't like a firing range. I've found one or two things about every single range I've ever been to that I really didn't like. Most I will return to. There are only two I won't return to.

They were just about full yesterday. I had to take what I could get there, that's for sure. But I like a busy range. A busy range sticks around a while.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> They were just about full yesterday. I had to take what I could get there, that's for sure. But I like a busy range. A busy range sticks around a while.


I usually go on Tuesday or Thursday nights so as not to miss too much family time on the weekends. They probably get a lot more action on the weekends, now that I think about it. They'll be there a while, that's for sure. :smt023


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

Arm Circles!

Seriously, it was my band director's favorite method for causing pain at 7:30 in the morning on the practice field, but more importantly it builds your deltoids, which is vital for being able to hold a trombone, or a rifle, out in front of you for long periods. Simply hold your arms out straight to each side, and do a series (50-100) of small forward circles, small backward, large forward, large backward. Don't use weights unless this is ridiculously easy (I doubt it will be) and you don't have time to up the reps; this isn't weight training per se, it's more muscle stamina.

Also, if you don't have anyone else around the house to be freaked out (or you can lock yourself in your man-cave), stand there and hold your rifle. Pin up a paper target and sight on the bulls-eye, then concentrate on holding your aim *using as little muscle power as possible*. If you hold your stance very tensely you will wear yourself out.

All I can say is keep at it; the more you do a physical activity, the easier doing that same level of activity becomes.


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