# Sub Compact ?



## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

I was taught the only stupid question is the one not asked, I guess I'll have to put that to the test.

1) Are sub compact and a pocket pistols in the same class or is one completely different than the other?

2) When considering a sub compact/pocket pistol should one consider the “bigger bullets are better bullets” thought process?

I guess one should carry what they shoot best but is a .45 or .357 sig for example to much for a small light gun?
It's easy to get caught up in the bigger is better thing.

Steve


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Small framed handguns are harder to shoot than a full-sized handgun. Generally speaking, they are recommended for experienced shooters. 

Pocket pistol and sub-compact pistol can be one and the same.....or not. Depends upon who you speak to or ask. 

I have a substantial collection, and in all of my handguns, only one I consider to be a pocket pistol. That's my AMT Back-Up in .45 acp. I also have a .380 S&W BodyGuard as well, but I think of it as a sub-compact for some odd reason. 

As far as caliber goes, it's whatever floats your boat. You can ask 10 different people, and chances are good, you'll get close to 10 differing opinions.


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## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks for the reply paratrooper. I wasn't going into the "which caliber is best" question but it just seems that shooting a large caliber out of something not much bigger than a bar of soap seems a little rough. I get your comment "Generally speaking, they are recommended for experienced shooters".


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Zeek_in_NMI said:


> Thanks for the reply paratrooper. I wasn't going into the "which caliber is best" question but it just seems that shooting a large caliber out of something not much bigger than a bar of soap seems a little rough. I get your comment "Generally speaking, they are recommended for experienced shooters".


I have huge hands and sub-compacts are a real challenge for me to get a good grip on. I do have a SIG P250C in .40 cal. Surprisingly enough, it's grip is big enough for me to grip well.

The .40 cal. snaps quite a bit more than the 9mm does. It doesn't bother me though at all. Huge hands also absorb recoil better than small hands do. :mrgreen:

And, smaller framed handguns are usually lighter in weight and provide less mass to absorb recoil. That will also be a factor in proper handling, or loss thereof.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

I was like something with a little more girth, but hey that's just me.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> I was like something with a little more girth, but hey that's just me.


Be sure to check with you wife. She might be on the same page. :anim_lol:


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Zeek_in_NMI said:


> I was taught the only stupid question is the one not asked, I guess I'll have to put that to the test.
> 
> 1) Are sub compact and a pocket pistols in the same class or is one completely different than the other?
> 
> ...


1) Subcompacts pistols are generally those which are a step above what is normally considered to be pocket guns, which are loosely referred to as "mouse guns". Good examples of subcompacts are the Kahr MK and PM series, Glock 26 and 27, and the Smith and Wesson M&P Shield to name three. Pocket gun examples would be the Ruger LCP, Taurus 738 TCP, and Kel-Tec P3AT. Generally, pocket pistols stop at the .380ACP caliber, but you can carry the Kahr PM9 or PM40 in a pocket.

2) When considering any handgun for self defense, in terms of caliber and power, you should select the most powerful caliber and load with which you can confidently and consistently deliver rounds to target. There are other factors for sure, such as capacity, weight, and size (a small .45ACP pistol is going to be wider than the same model in 9mm). As a good starting point, for a subcompact, you should not go below a 9mm.

*"I guess one should carry what they shoot best but is a .45 or .357 sig for example to much for a small light gun?
It's easy to get caught up in the bigger is better thing."*

Yes you should carry what you shoot best providing it is acceptable for use as a self defense gun. Example. Many people shoot .22LR pistols very well but that is not the best choice for a defensive caliber. Yes it can kill someone, of that there is no doubt. But the object is to stop your assailant as quickly as possible and in the heat and anxiety of an extreme encounter, you are not going to be Mr. Deadeye with every shot. Most all subcompacts are available in serious calibers. A good example of a near perfectly sized subcompact is the Kahr MK, PM, and CW series. All of these series can be had in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP (PM and CW series only) and are not a handful when shooting these calibers. In fact, the PM40, which is quite light, handles the .40 caliber round nicely.

In conclusion, a standard or compact series (Example: Glock 17/22 or 19/23) is better than a subcompact. A subcompact (Example: Kahr PM9) is better than a pocket (mouse) gun. And a pocket gun is better than no gun.

Hope this helps.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Be sure to check with you wife. She might be on the same page. :anim_lol:


What does that mean?


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

TheLAGuy said:


> What does that mean?


you really just don't get it, do you?

your consistent use of phallic innuendo makes you come across as a 12yr old or maybe even as someone who feels inadequate. maybe one day you will mature enough to understand.

and i'm with paratrooper. i bet your wife would like a little more girth too.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm just saying that I think a .45 has more girth than lets say a .22. right?


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

TheLAGuy said:


> I'm just saying that I think a .45 has more girth than lets say a .22. right?


i bet you would get more respect if you chose your words more carefully. instead of.....



TheLAGuy said:


> I was like something with a little more girth, but hey that's just me.


try...."i prefer a larger caliber handgun like the .45, but hey that's just me."


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

If that the way you guys talk back in Missouri, so be it.


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

i think you will find it to pretty universal language, even in sunny CA.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Broondog said:


> i think you will find it to pretty universal language, even in sunny CA.


Broondog: whats your favorite firearm?


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

TheLAGuy said:


> Broondog: whats your favorite firearm?


the AKM


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Do you have a pic?


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## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks all for your comments to what may have seemed elementary. I'm not in a financial position to buy any gun that I'd like to try and then regret the decision and have it sit around collecting dust. Where I live there isn't a gun shop within 50 miles and their shelves are pretty thin which makes it pretty hard to handle various models let alone buy one. I helps having people to bounce ideas off of.


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## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks SouthernBoy, your explanation was very helpful and will help a lot making a good decision when purchasing the CCW I'm looking for. And when some salesman try's to sell me a "pocket pistol" that looks like a M&P I can just look back at him with the ole deer in the head light look.



SouthernBoy said:


> 1) Subcompacts pistols are generally those which are a step above what is normally considered to be pocket guns, which are loosely referred to as "mouse guns". Good examples of subcompacts are the Kahr MK and PM series, Glock 26 and 27, and the Smith and Wesson M&P Shield to name three. Pocket gun examples would be the Ruger LCP, Taurus 738 TCP, and Kel-Tec P3AT. Generally, pocket pistols stop at the .380ACP caliber, but you can carry the Kahr PM9 or PM40 in a pocket.
> 
> 2) When considering any handgun for self defense, in terms of caliber and power, you should select the most powerful caliber and load with which you can confidently and consistently deliver rounds to target. There are other factors for sure, such as capacity, weight, and size (a small .45ACP pistol is going to be wider than the same model in 9mm). As a good starting point, for a subcompact, you should not go below a 9mm.
> 
> ...


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

OK, I'll try to get back to the original idea of this thread. I have two guns that I use for CCW. 
They differ a LOT in the amount of recoil "bite".

1. A S&W Airweight 642 (concealed hammer) J-frame five shot revolver in the standard .38 Special. 15 oz. unloaded.
2. A SIG Sauer P290 semi-auto in 9mm. Six round mag (6+1) or extended eight round mag (8+1). 20 oz. unloaded.

I don't think of myself as a "recoil wimp". I'm just fine with my .454 Casull Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan snubby.
But, the SIG has a lot more recoil than the S&W. It has "sandpaper" grips. And 50 rounds at the range will
REALLY "sandpaper" my strong hand. To the point of "redness". I practice with +P in .38 Special, but NO +P in 9mm.

When carrying, I almost always use the SIG. 9 rounds plus an 8 round extra mag wins over five rounds plus
a five round reload "strip". But, it really is harder to shoot well with the SIG than with the revolver.

Just my opinions. YMMV. :smt1099

Oops, forgot to add. I consider both of these sub-compacts, not pocket pistols like the Ruger LCP.


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

TheLAGuy said:


> Do you have a pic?


you'll find one here.....http://www.handgunforum.net/general-long-gun-area/6040-rifle-actions-2.html



DanP_from_AZ said:


> 1. A S&W Airweight 642 (concealed hammer) J-frame five shot revolver in the standard .38 Special. 15 oz. unloaded.
> 2. A SIG Sauer P290 semi-auto in 9mm. Six round mag (6+1) or extended eight round mag (8+1). 20 oz. unloaded.


it sounds like you and i have similar tastes. my two carrys are a S&W 638 Airweight and a Glock 27 .40 S&W.

however i put a Hogue Handall on the Glock (and trimmed it down to fit the grip and mag well) and that made the little bugger a lot easier to hold on to and much more friendly when putting lots of rounds downrange. you might consider such a modification to your Sig. then again, Hogue makes grip sets for larger frame Sigs (like my P229) so could that be an option as well? i dunno.

but i do know that you are for sure right about one thing.....spare mags win over speedloaders any day!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I too have a S&W 642. It's great for concealed carry. 

It's my favorite snubby.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 Glock 23's. I have others in my carry stable which include other Glocks, a few Kahrs, and three M&P's. For a subcompact, I like my Kahr PM9 (second gen). Handles strong 9mm loads quite nicely and is a good shooter. For pocket (mouse) guns, I have a Kel-Tec P3AT and a Ruger LCP. My preference there is the LCP.

There are others outside of my carry stable that I have carried at one time or another but have retired for various reasons. We gun people tend to do this as it seems we are never totally satisfied and are always seeking that perfect gun. That and the fact that WE change which makes our needs and requirements change, too. Just the way it is, I suppose.


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## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks again all, it's good to see there is no silver bullet, this should be an interesting journey. Guess I'll need a bigger safe.


SouthernBoy said:


> There are others outside of my carry stable that I have carried at one time or another but have retired for various reasons. We gun people tend to do this as it seems we are never totally satisfied and are always seeking that perfect gun. That and the fact that WE change which makes are needs and requirements change, too. Just the way it is, I suppose.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Zeek_in_NMI said:


> Thanks again all, it's good to see there is no silver bullet, this should be an interesting journey. *Guess I'll need a bigger safe.*


Heh, heh. Yep, that's one of the side effects of becoming immersed in the gun world and the gun culture. I bought another (bigger) one a few years ago and it's already filled. Having purchased two new handguns within the last month, finding room for them in my newer safe is going to be fun.

So people spend thousands of dollars on golf and country club memberships, race cars, renting airplanes to fly, boats (been there, done that), and a host of other expensive pursuits and hobbies. In light of these pursuits, firearms are a relatively inexpensive pastime. I tell people that shooting is my golf. Of course, the "golf balls" (ammunition) are getting awfully expensive and hard to locate.

Incidentally, you implied that you would be carrying your firearm. Have you applied for or received a carry permit or are you going to carry openly? While it is a pain to get permission from our public servants to exercise one of our fundamental rights, I would recommend getting a carry permit if you haven't already done this. Next, I would highly recommend that you get quality training from a reputable instructor who not only knows firearms, but also is well versed in the laws of your state regarding the carrying and use of a defensive firearm and the practical side of carrying. I would also recommend you try to locate some courses or seminars on the legal aspects of the use of deadly force. This one is a hard one because all too often, you will find that the instructors in this arena are not the best qualified to teach this topic. Generally a good attorney who has experience defending people who have used a firearm in their defense and is pro-gun makes a good instructor because of his intimate knowledge of the law.


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

I like to think pocket pistols are less than 6.0 " overall length or a J frame revolver 2" barrel
i think the biggest pocket pistol, maybe the best, is the sig 938 in 9mm at 5.9" overall length
yes the kahr pm45 is 5.8" OAL but that's gotta be pretty snappy
that is why the .380s are so popular - with the new tech ammo they are quite adequate
then again it depends on the pocket size - i like my 5.11 cargo pants

i think subcompact pistols have an OAL of less than 7"


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 Glock 23's. I have others in my carry stable which include other Glocks, a few Kahrs, and three M&P's. For a subcompact, I like my Kahr PM9 (second gen). Handles strong 9mm loads quite nicely and is a good shooter. For pocket (mouse) guns, I have a Kel-Tec P3AT and a Ruger LCP. My preference there is the LCP.
> 
> There are others outside of my carry stable that I have carried at one time or another but have retired for various reasons. We gun people tend to do this as it seems we are never totally satisfied and are always seeking that perfect gun. That and the fact that WE change which makes our needs and requirements change, too. Just the way it is, I suppose.


what do you think of the g-23? theres one on sale at the turners outdoorsman for $540. im considering getting it. seems like a pretty solid gun.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Which generation is it? I have two gen3 G23's, one of which is my primary carry gun. According to a writer, well known to the gun culture, the Glock 23 is the finest combat handgun you can carry (Boston T. Party in "Boston's Gun Bible").


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

It's a gen3. That's great to hear, thinking about picking it up then.


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## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Heh, heh. Yep, that's one of the side effects of becoming immersed in the gun world and the gun culture. I bought another (bigger) one a few years ago and it's already filled. Having purchased two new handguns within the last month, finding room for them in my newer safe is going to be fun.
> 
> So people spend thousands of dollars on golf and country club memberships, race cars, renting airplanes to fly, boats (been there, done that), and a host of other expensive pursuits and hobbies. In light of these pursuits, firearms are a relatively inexpensive pastime. I tell people that shooting is my golf. Of course, the "golf balls" (ammunition) are getting awfully expensive and hard to locate.
> 
> Incidentally, you implied that you would be carrying your firearm. Have you applied for or received a carry permit or are you going to carry openly? While it is a pain to get permission from our public servants to exercise one of our fundamental rights, I would recommend getting a carry permit if you haven't already done this. Next, I would highly recommend that you get quality training from a reputable instructor who not only knows firearms, but also is well versed in the laws of your state regarding the carrying and use of a defensive firearm and the practical side of carrying. I would also recommend you try to locate some courses or seminars on the legal aspects of the use of deadly force. This one is a hard one because all too often, you will find that the instructors in this arena are not the best qualified to teach this topic. Generally a good attorney who has experience defending people who have used a firearm in their defense and is pro-gun makes a good instructor because of his intimate knowledge of the law.


SouthernBoy, you've hit this on the button. This is about CCW and open carry. I've had BB guns, pellet guns .22 rifles. Not to mention shot guns and a staple of center fire rifles including 30.30, .223, .284, .270, 30.06, 45.70, .35 Remington and I'm sure I've forgotten one of them but I will tell you that this CCW arena has opened up a whole new can of worm's. I appreciate your suggestions on taking the extra courses and will do accordingly. Again, thanks and Duly noted!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Zeek_in_NMI said:


> SouthernBoy, you've hit this on the button. This is about CCW and open carry. I've had BB guns, pellet guns .22 rifles. Not to mention shot guns and a staple of center fire rifles including 30.30, .223, .284, .270, 30.06, 45.70, .35 Remington and I'm sure I've forgotten one of them but I will tell you that this CCW arena has opened up a whole new can of worm's. I appreciate your suggestions on taking the extra courses and will do accordingly. Again, thanks and Duly noted!


Good for you.... you're moving in the right direction. Over the years, I have attended six courses/classes/seminars on safety, carrying, practical carry and use, and the legal aspects of the use of deadly force. You never stop learning this stuff. My first class was an actual college course in college. Half was classroom lecture and half was on a skeet and trap range. Perhaps the most useful of these six were the three lectures on the use of deadly force and the law in my state. These dispelled a lot of rumors and old wive's tails and was very informative.


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## XD40inAVL (Feb 1, 2013)

I carry an XD40sc 3", and have an XD40 Service 4" for home defense.

The sub-compact has a shorter barrel and grip, but with a Pierce mag extension, the grip is the same. The only real difference in shooting is the sight radius is 1" shorter, but I shoot them equally as well. The sub compact being lighter does have a noticeable more recoil, but when I have sights on the target I can't really tell which gun I have in my hand.

The 1" shorter grip and barrel does make the sub-compact a good bit easier to conceal.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Zeek_in_NMI said:


> Thanks SouthernBoy, your explanation was very helpful and will help a lot making a good decision when purchasing the CCW I'm looking for. And when some salesman try's to sell me a "pocket pistol" that looks like a M&P I can just look back at him with the ole deer in the head light look.


Narrowing down your candidate selection list can be a harrowing and frustrating process. There are scads of variables to consider and the fact is, more often than not, those considerations sometimes don't manifest themselves until after your purchase is made. Then you find yourself kicking your butt because some criteria you had overlooked surfaces and is rather significant. I would wager that this has happened to most of us "experts" over the years.... I know it has with me. So taking your time, asking questions, and not rushing in head on is definitely a good thing. If for no other reason, the whole process should turn up more criteria to consider and weigh.

In the fall of 2011, I began a process of re-evaluating my primary carry gun. For four and a half years, it had been a gen3 Glock 23. A neighbor friend and I would hit the range ever two weeks, not for target shooting in the traditional sense, but "scenario" shooting. Our targets were paper plates, index cards, 8.5" x 11" copy paper with shapes drawn or printed, and some other things. The range we hit was (is) the NRA headquarters range and you can set the target holders to present then hide your targets in timed fashion. We did (do) draw-and-fire exercises, picking up from a table and shooting, double taps with reload, short hand/weak hand drills, you name it. This was wonderful for me and has made me a better shooter. But it pointed out some areas I needed to address with my equipment.

So I would take different guns to the range and put them through our paces. I don't remember how many I evaluated but I believe it was six. I have gone full circle and am back to that original gen3 Glock 23. My second choice would be my M&P 9mm Pro Series 4.25" barrel; a really fine shooter. One thing I did during this that really improved my consistency and accuracy with that gen3 G23 was I changed its sights. It came with the factory night sights, but I had a set of Trijicon night sights, GL01, installed. These allow just a little more light to escape around the front post to the rear notch and that was what I needed.

Finally, gun sales people. Crazy as it seems, some of them just don't know guns and will tell you almost anything. I've heard my share. Police can be like this as well. So you are much better off to go in armed with the best information you can so that you can dispel the truth from the BS. Judging from your postings, I don't think this will be a problem for you.


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## Zeek_in_NMI (Apr 14, 2013)

> There are scads of variables to consider and the fact is, more often than not, those considerations sometimes don't manifest themselves until after your purchase is made. Then you find yourself kicking your butt because some criteria you had overlooked surfaces and is rather significant. I would wager that this has happened to most of us "experts" over the years.... I know it has with me. So taking your time, asking questions, and not rushing in head on is definitely a good thing. If for no other reason, the whole process should turn up more criteria to consider and weigh.


It's encouraging to know that I'll get yet another opportunity to kick myself in the butt over a purchase I've made but at least this won't be something like a pair of shoes that would eventually end up at the Good Will store.



> Finally, gun sales people. Crazy as it seems, some of them just don't know guns and will tell you almost anything. I've heard my share. Police can be like this as well. So you are much better off to go in armed with the best information you can so that you can dispel the truth from the BS. Judging from your postings, I don't think this will be a problem for you.


I'm finding this has proven to be one of the most interesting elements of this process. Where else can one get the pleasure of watching someone expertly field strip a weapon in 10 seconds as they spew useless dribble about the qualities of this or that. I say that loosely but actually have run across some very helpful sales people who I believe genuinely are trying to help. But more often than not you'll run across the shop that would love to sell you a box of 50 9mm JHP for $69.95 and never crack a smile. But that's another thread. Next weekend about an hour from where I live there is going to be a gun show and I'll be getting up early, grabbing my travel mug, and taking to the road in search of the "holy grail", life don't get no better than this. I love living in this great land of opportunities!


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