# Group Size Question



## CHAZ37 (Apr 8, 2008)

Hi everybody, Im new to the forum and have a question. Do you think being able to keep all of your rounds fired within a nine inch circle at a distance of about 17-20 yards to be good shooting? I notice when I go to the range most people shoot within the 5 to 10 yard range. Thanks for reading my post.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Depends what you're shooting...

In a combat/defensive handgun, benchrest accuracy is around 2-4" at 25yds.

For defensive shooting, the VAST majority of shooting is within 10yds. (How often are you going to shoot inside your house to defend your family at more than 30ft?) Most defensive shootings are between 0 and 5 yds. If you're shooting "defensively" out past 25yds... 1) You ain't hittin' sh__ with rounds coming your way!, and 2) it'll be really hard to defend yourself in court!!! Distance is your best defense. If you're already 25yds out, make it 50 quick, unless you're cornered.

I do the majority of my defensive training at 7yds. I've been shooting for years, and I shoot at least once per week. My slightly custom XD45 will shoot 1.0-1.5" groups offhand at 7yds, and 3 inch groups at 10-15 yds.

Most of the people shooting at my range are lucky to group inside of a FOOT at 7yds. They are lucky to hit the paper at 15yds.

I'd say that a nine inch circle at 15-20 yards is MUCH better than most. By comparison, competition bullseye shooters, at 25 yds, typically shoot 3.0-3.5" groups!!!

At 15 yrds, I'd guess I average 3-5" groups slow fire... 5 rounds in 10-15 seconds. Breathing and squeezing.

My best gun is a XD45 with a Springfield Custom Shop Competition Trigger Job, at 3.5#, with a shortened length of pull, overtravel stop, and almost no uptake. This one will do 3" at 15yds.

My little XD9SC carry gun will shoot 2 inches at 7yds, but I rarely push it past 10yds.

My KelTec P-3AT will shoot about 4" at 7yds.

If you want small groups...
1) Dry-fire 2-4 nights per week. I usiually dry-fire for 5-10 minutes.
2) Shoot live ammo at least once a week, and work outward from tiny groups at 7yds, to 10yds, to 15yds, to 20. Confidence builds.
3) Get a quality 22 Pistol (Buckmark, Ruger), and tweak the trigger to feel as much like your center-fire gun as possible. 

JW


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

*Jeff* offers sound advice, as usual.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Back in the olden days, when Cooper was running Gunsite, if you shot small groups, he would look at your target and say, "Too slow."

Yes, you need to establish that you understand trigger control, and can put all your bullets into one hole at 7 yards. (The standard drill is to put a small piece of tape on the paper, then "make that piece of tape disappear.") But once you have established that, your mission is to shoot 10-inch groups -- as fast as you can. At Gunsite, the "best" shooter is the person who can hit a 10" target -- _anywhere_ inside the 10" circle -- faster than everybody else. At 3 yards to 100 yards, how fast can you hit a 10" target, starting (1) from "ready" position and (2) from the leather.


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## PanaDP (Jul 20, 2007)

milquetoast said:


> Back in the olden days, when Cooper was running Gunsite, if you shot small groups, he would look at your target and say, "Too slow."
> 
> Yes, you need to establish that you understand trigger control, and can put all your bullets into one hole at 7 yards. (The standard drill is to put a small piece of tape on the paper, then "make that piece of tape disappear.") But once you have established that, your mission is to shoot 10-inch groups -- as fast as you can. At Gunsite, the "best" shooter is the person who can hit a 10" target -- _anywhere_ inside the 10" circle -- faster than everybody else. At 3 yards to 100 yards, how fast can you hit a 10" target, starting (1) from "ready" position and (2) from the leather.


...and if one's goals are NOT shaped by defensive shooting?


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

PanaDP said:


> ...and if one's goals are NOT shaped by defensive shooting?


then go small. on the groups that is. Heck even if ones goals are i would have to say that. Sorry mister cooper.


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## Ram Rod (Jan 16, 2008)

I use 9" paper plates for my targets often. Keeping all shots within the 9" circle should be good out to 20 yards IMO. 5-7 yards more like 3-4" or less.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

As stated above, I shoot for both.

When I'm bearing down and front-sight focused... trigger control... breathing... it's ragged holes, with a gun that will do it.

When I'm practicing for defensive shooting, the focus is different, the expectations are different. Obviously we should all be able to empty a mag as fast as possible into a 10" group at 3-5yds.

But heaven forbid... If I have to hit a 6" target (head shot) at 7yds, with my adrenaline pumping... I'd HOPE that I can hit a 2" target relaxed...

Like an agressor in full body armor.

You'll never know what you have to shoot until you have to shoot it. And most likely, it will NOT but what you imagined in your wildest dreams. So practice for everything...

Practice, practice, practice... Heaven forbid...

JW


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## CHAZ37 (Apr 8, 2008)

Thanks for the replies everybody. I am more of a combat type shooter I guess. Id love to be able to have tight groups at 25 yards. I also agree that you need to have basic marksmanship skills before you start to work on speed or moving and shooting. I will work to always improve those basic skills but I also will work on getting the gun out and up quickly on target. A hit within that 9 inch circle at over 15 yards is fine with me.


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