# Newbie with a question not before seen addressed



## unreal203 (Oct 10, 2017)

fairly new to the reloading game, brand new to hand gun ammo reloading. Working with .45 ACP brass that I'm charging with 6.7 grains of Power Pistol for 850 fps to be put through a Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec model. 2 questions. First, in measuring the case length after resizing, I am seeing the mouth is not flat. I measure, then rotate the case 90 degrees, measure again and I'm getting differences of .002-.006 inches. Never had that with rifle cases. Leave it, or trim to even it up? What about case length? There is full agreement on OAL, but not so much on min and max case length. Set my die for a .898 case seating bullets, but then would a bullet in a .888 case seat properly? Would an .888 setting put too much pressure on a .898 case? How badly would the ones in between be affected in terms of consistency? Set the die to an in between case and deal with it? Biggest concern is the case mouth not being square. Nobody that I have found yet has had this issue. Thanks for your time.


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## noylj (Dec 8, 2011)

>Nobody that I have found yet has had this issue
That should be the answer to your question.
Why do folks bring "rifle" loading tricks into handguns?
You are probably going from a 1 MOA gun to a 12 MOA gun.
1) ANY trimming of a case that head spaces on the mouth INCREASES head space gap and lowers accuracy. SAAMi specifies the "head space" for .45 Auto as 0.898-0.920" and the case length as 0.888-0.898". So, you can see that the head space gap is only near zero if the cases are max length and barrel's head space is min length. 
3) Do whatever makes you happy, as YOU have to have confidence in your loads. For 9x19, I know several folks that sort all cases and save those that are the longest after sizing for match use. None trim cases, as short cases are less accurate.
2) Since bullseye shooters, who only care about accuracy, have NEVER trimmed .45 cases, that should tell you something.
4) You are unlikely to discover any real accuracy improving technique that hasn't already been tried in the last 130 years.
5) How do you "set" some die for 0.888 or whatever? I have no idea what you are talking about. 
The sizing die does not care about case length, unless it is more than 0.100" longer. 
The expander doesn't care about case length, as all that would vary is case mouth flare, and you should be using enough for any reasonable case length variation. 
The seating die doesn't care about case length as it ONLY contacts the bullet meplat or ogive and doesn't touch the case at all. 
The crimp die doesn't care about normal case length variation as taper crimps are designed to not be sensitive to normal case length variation and roll crimps should be used on bullets with crimp grooves or cannelures that are WAY wider than any normal case length variation.
Again, whatever it is has never been a problem and maybe you should spend more time simply reloading per you manual's directions and less time worrying about minutia.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Measure before resizing, and measure after resizing. Maybe the correction is in your resizing tool or method. 
If you can, measure the size before shooting.
Also , does this sizing difference happen with a particular gun ?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Case length can be important in .45 ACP, but it's nothing to obsess about.
Make the case mouth even, so the case length is the same all the way around. One quick scrape with a case trimmer will do it.

Depending upon the use you'll put your reloads to, a good taper crimp is probably more important than case-mouth evenness.
I suggest against any form of roll crimp, in the .45 ACP.

Truth is Stranger Than Fiction Department:
It is true more often than not that reloaded .45 brass "headspaces" on the extractor groove, rather than on the case mouth.
Assuming use in a 1911 with an interior extractor, trimming the case a little too short really does no harm. Taper-crimping too tightly does no harm either.
In normal use, .45 ACP brass will not stretch. Once trimmed to a good length, they'll stay that way.
The .45 operates at such low pressure that it's OK to use cases with cracked and split mouths, in practice shooting.


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## unreal203 (Oct 10, 2017)

pic said:


> Measure before resizing, and measure after resizing. Maybe the correction is in your resizing tool or method.
> If you can, measure the size before shooting.
> Also , does this sizing difference happen with a particular gun ?


I did measure some before resizing. There is a difference on the case mouth before, and the variation does not change after resizing. Not sure what I can change about my method, but my Lee dies seem to be doing the job. The rounds were fired from a WWII era Colt 1911.


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## unreal203 (Oct 10, 2017)

noylj said:


> >Nobody that I have found yet has had this issue
> That should be the answer to your question.


Sorry, but I don't follow you here. Unless you're stating the same thing my techno-geek computer friends do when I take my computer troubles to them. I always have problems they, nor anyone else has ever seen before.



noylj said:


> >Why do folks bring "rifle" loading tricks into handguns?


Again, not following. What am I doing wrong?



noylj said:


> >
> 5) How do you "set" some die for 0.888 or whatever? I have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> The seating die doesn't care about case length as it ONLY contacts the bullet meplat or ogive and doesn't touch the case at all.


If I have a case that is .888 inches in length, I put the case into my reloader, lower the handle to raise the case all the way up, thread the die until it just touches the case then make and additional 1/16 turn as per instructions, the die will seat the bullet to the required depth. If I put in a longer case, say .898 inches, the bullet will be set deeper into the case. Like wise if I go through the above mentioned steps but start out with the longer case, the bullet may not seat far enough in a shorter case to properly crimp. Not sure how big of an issue a bullet too deep would cause even with OAL in spec. However in thinking about it, the bullets seem to have a bit more than a .010 inch leway, and with a proper taper crimp on a deeper set bullet, I should not have to worry about too much brass gripping the bullet making it harder to launch. Right?



noylj said:


> >
> Again, whatever it is has never been a problem and maybe you should spend more time simply reloading per you manual's directions and less time worrying about minutia.


I used to be a machinist. Consistency and precision are just some of the bad habits I picked up on that job.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

unreal203 said:


> ...I used to be a machinist. Consistency and precision are just some of the bad habits I picked up on that job.


Ah...
There's the problem!

*noylj* pointed out that most pistol shooting, because it is done at close range, does not demand rifle-cartridge-loading accuracy.
I add that practical pistol shooting (rather than high-accuracy bullseye work) is a minute-of-man proposition, not minute-of-angle.
Normal pistol-cartridge reloading does not demand small-detail, high-accuracy attention.

For example, I spent almost 30 years loading .45 ACP for practical-pistol competition, and for practice toward that endeavor. (I was modestly successful.)
I used the same primer, _and the same charge-weight of the same powder_, to reload both 230-grain round-nose and 200-grain semi-wadcutter bullets.
I used once-fired military brass for competition, and undifferentiated range-pick-up brass for practice rounds.
Shooting from my non-accurized M1911, better shooters than I could keep my practice reloads, fired from my own pistol, within the 10-ring of a 25-yard target at 15 yards. (I let others set that standard for me, because I was never that good from offhand.)

What kind of accuracy do you expect to achieve? (Offhand? From a rest?)
For what purpose?


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

If you were a machinist, what are you doing shooting a Mil Spec 1911, undoubtedly one of the most loosely machined pistols in existence?

I would think the minute variances in your ammunition would be the least of your concerns.

I'm not trying to be rude, but many Mil Spec 1911's rattle; that's how loose they are. With all their faults, the 1911 style pistol remains one of the most popular pistols out there.

When I started reloading, my LGS told me I needed a case trimmer. Fortunately I shot my first IPSC match before I invested in that case trimmer, and got some excellent advice from several veteran shooters.

I have not been reloading as long as Steve (by about 5 yrs), but I have never trimmed a .45 case, regardless how many times it has been reloaded, and have never seen any degradation in accuracy. As long as I can hit the 0 ring more times than not, on an IDPA target, I don't care how long my cases are.

The pressures on a .45ACP are so low, it is unlikely your cases will ever distort before they split.


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## unreal203 (Oct 10, 2017)

high pockets said:


> If you were a machinist, what are you doing shooting a Mil Spec 1911, undoubtedly one of the most loosely machined pistols in existence?.......
> 
> .........
> I'm not trying to be rude, but many Mil Spec 1911's rattle; that's how loose they are. With all their faults, the 1911 style pistol remains one of the most popular pistols out there.


AK-47's are pretty loose too, but I love'em anyway. As for the first question, I inherited one from my Grandfather years ago. Can't beat classic style, and while I do miss it, I have no regrets about passing it down to my son. He got better groupings with it than I ever could. But, I feel my gun collection just isn't complete without one, so....



high pockets said:


> When I started reloading, my LGS told me I needed a case trimmer. Fortunately I shot my first IPSC match before I invested in that case trimmer, and got some excellent advice from several veteran shooters.


Did any of those veteran shooters give advice about crimp? I have seen taper crimp dies, and factory crimp dies. The reviews I have read are pretty even as to which is better, but I would still like some more insight, and maybe a clearer understanding of what exactly the difference is.


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## unreal203 (Oct 10, 2017)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> What kind of accuracy do you expect to achieve? (Offhand? From a rest?)
> For what purpose?


Frankly, just paper targets I can be proud of. I'm not a competitive guy. I shoot for fun and nothing else, with the exception of the occasional hunting trip. But I still like to maintain some image of competency. Now, I am aware of the "it's not the arrows, it's the indian" analogy, but ammo still does play a role, and I have had bad ammo before. I would like to not make it myself. I am an anal-retentive jerk, and I just cannot handle doing anything unless it is to the best of my ability. And I wish to expand my ability as far as I can.

Pardon me for repeating a question asked just prior to this, but what is your experience with taper crimp dies vs. factory crimp dies?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

unreal203 said:


> ...[W]hat is your experience with taper crimp dies vs. factory crimp dies?


Roll (what you call "factory") crimps are for revolvers, in which headspace is not an issue.
Revolvers use the case rim to correctly position the cartridge.

Semi-autos headspace on the case mouth (except that in the 1911, cases often "headspace"on the extractor hook). For that purpose, the case mouth has to be both unambiguous and in the proper location to correctly position the cartridge.
The roll crimp makes the case mouth an ambiguous shape which lies at an ambiguous distance from the case's base and its primer. It will not correctly position the cartridge, and may even allow it to slide forward too far for sure ignition.

A properly loaded cartridge for a semi-auto pistol will display a sharp-edged case mouth that has been pressed tightly against (or even slightly into) the bullet. This sharp-edged case mouth contacts a slight ridge at the forward end of the pistol-barrel's chamber, keeping the cartridge from entering the chamber too deeply.

However, the 1911 is a special case. It uses an internal extractor which presses more directly and (usually) more strongly against the extractor groove of the .45 ACP case, than would an external extractor in one of the many other pistol designs.
The 1911's internal extractor forcefully presses the .45 case against the barrel's chamber wall, thereby holding the case in place even when it is too short to properly headspace on the chamber's mouth.

Notwithstanding the internal extractor's role in positioning the case, a taper crimp "gives the case mouth a chance," just in case it is at the right length.

Perhaps more important, though, the taper crimp stresses the case much less than does a roll crimp, and thereby permits the case to "live" through many more cycles of being reloaded and fired. Since the case is still the one most expensive component of the reloaded cartridge, making it last longer is a good and useful thing.


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## unreal203 (Oct 10, 2017)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Roll (what you call "factory") crimps are for revolvers, in which headspace is not an issue.


Since it's listed as a .45 ACP, I thought the factory crimp die would have been taper as every factory made round I have had over the years has been. That's why I was wondering why I would see a .45 ACP factory crimp die, and a .45 ACP taper crimp die from the same company with different part numbers. Especially confounding is reviews that say they used a taper crimp die, then switched to the factory crimp die with better results and vice-versa. People who shoot revolvers designed for the ACP cartridge cant be that numerous, so I assume the reviewers are all talking about semi-autos. Well, looks like trial and error will have to be played. Thank you for all your help.


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## noylj (Dec 8, 2011)

If you are adjusting the DIE BODY to set your seating depth, you aren't doing it right.
If you have a separate crimp die, you:
1) put case in shell holder and raise ram
2) screw the seating stem all the way UP
3) hold the ram all the way up, screw the die body down until the crimp section contacts the case
4) screw the die body UP two full turns and turn the die body lock ring down
5) lower the ram and place bullet on the case
6) raise the ram all the way up
7) screw the seating stem DOWN until it contacts the bullet
8) lower the ram a little and screw the seating stem down two full turns
9) raise the ram and seat the bullet
10) incrementally adjust the seating stem down until you reach your target COL
11) lock the seating stem
Again, the CASE does not contact the SEATING DIE, except when crimping—and seating/crimping is not the optimum method.

If you want to crimp with the seating die, you would now raise the seating stem back up and then adjust the die body down until you get the crimp you want and then lock the die body down and screw the seating stem down until it just contacts the bullet and lock the seating stem.

My point was, if NO ONE in over 100 years as had the problem, YOUR problem is either due to doing something wrong or you are worried about something that doesn't have any effect on shooting out to 50 yards, at a minimum. I admit that some folks can discover the weirdest failure modes, but .45 Auto case length has never been an issue for accuracy.

The Lee .45 Auto FCD is a taper crimp die. Now, before Lee raised the price of the Taper Crimp Die, I always recommended folks buy the Lee TCD as it is as good as any and was much less expensive. My issue with the FCD is that the "iron out the bulge" carbide ring will swage down my lead bullets and cause a drop in accuracy and leading from an undersized bullet; however, if you knock out the carbide ring, the die is as good as the Lee Taper Crimp Die that now costs the same.


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