# Thoughts About Self-Defense Pistols



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Here's an essay which may be helpful when it comes to buying a self-defense pistol, or in critiquing the one you already own.

Click on: Thoughts About Self-Defense Pistols | Gun Toters

I realize that my criteria may not also be yours, so I actively request that you post your own arguments, pro and con, either here or attached to my own essay.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Basically a good article could have added practice drawing and presenting as much as target practice.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

My first choice would be a DA revolver with iron sights like a model 58 S&W or a model 65 S&W. I don't need night sights or Red acrylic light bars as they might help the BG's. There are NO children at home. My wife shoots. We have a What-If plan in place. I use a flashlight if needed. I practice reloading with speed loaders.

My second choice is a semi auto as per my model 19 & 21 glock. Just plain 3 dot sights and several Hi cap magazines. Also I like the Gen3 glocks. I like my 1991 1911A1, Novaks low mount sights, 8 round Wilson mags and Silvertip ammo. It has an arched mainspring housing & smooth front strap. Double tap drills quite often! It all goes back to what each person is comfortable with shooting. 

Great article Steve! Ya got me thinking again! Thanks Pardner!


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I agree with the first paragraph. It's good to assume that you'll react this way. 

BUT, Sometimes your senses can tweak to your advantage and YOU become a precision instrument (in a sense).

NICE article, thanks
pic


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Very good Steve.

Not as an argument but maybe an addendum, consider:

Go out to the range. For me, there sits a beretta 84F, A CZ PCR, a SA 1911a1, and a Beretta 96A1 with a fast fire III.

Prepare each pistol as you would carry, c3, c2, c1 - assume you are in a situation where you presume a higher threat level and with back to target,

Make sure you have a friend standing safely away..... who drops a string of lighted firecrackers at that moment.......
Turn and draw.

5 shots. How did you do?

Which was most on target?
Which had a smooth draw from concealment?

Which hit the bullseye on first shot?

Which did you fumble with?
Which took the longest/shortest time?

It will likely be different with each person, skill, practice, physic.

I would want my PCR to be tops, but I know that little 84F would perform best, with the 1911a1 right behind it. Some pistols just naturally fit.

In all the arguments of action, cartridge, sights, grips.....

The strongest is: Which gun has the most accurate time-on-target?
Practice may change this. Modifications can tweak a close call and maybe get you some better ballistic performance,

But better 5 _"marginal"_ .380s quickly and accurately delivered,
than stray .40 smiths spread out and not even getting a disabling hit.

Perhaps this is the subvert message in Steve's essay,

it's not about the cartridge, it's not really about the pistol,

It's about you and the pistol functioning together. A oneness of safety and efficiency.

And you can probably do it without the fancy trappings.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

Thanks for this about the Beretta 84. Just bought the 85, and put my thinking on my choice on the beretta forum. 

It seems to me, that there is a HUGE psychological aspect to the self defense aspect. Firepower is great, but I'd also like to know how things like posture, voice and visibility of the weapon impacts self defense also, and how to use the gun in such a way that makes it less likely I'd have to fire it. I feel like there are two parts to defending yourself with a pistol, drawing and firing. Sure, things happen fast, but I got the weapon because I've been in a few situations around my home, and in each of those situations deterrence was all I had, and it worked. I just intimidated potential attackers with attitude. Now, I WANT to have more than my own obnoxious personality, and that perspective is due to these experiences, and why I bought the gun, and am doing all the training with it, but, honestly.. I may be a bastard, but... i'd just as soon keep my shooting to the range.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Phillip65 said:


> ...I'd also like to know how things like posture, voice and visibility of the weapon impacts self defense also, and *how to use the gun in such a way that makes it less likely I'd have to fire it*...[emphasis added]


The very first thing that came to my mind, as I read that sentence, was: "But you should never use your gun for _anything_, unless you are going to fire it."

That is, your gun stays concealed until you actually need it to save a life.
If you don't need the gun to save a life, and it's only going to be used as a threat, then it should stay concealed.
If you want to use your gun only as a threat, you should instead leave the area and the confrontation, and avoid the fight.

Now, that's not to say that your pistol absolutely must remain holstered until circumstances require that you shoot. That would put you at a terrible disadvantage.
You could, for instance, quietly draw the pistol and conceal it behind your body (or your hip), ready for use, in case it might be needed.
But it should remain concealed until you actually need to shoot.

Threatening someone with your gun will escalate the potential fight, which puts you at a legal disadvantage.
It also gives your opponent a chance to grab your gun and take it away from you, since he knows that you're not about to shoot.
Why give him that tactical advantage?



Phillip65 said:


> ...I've been in a few situations around my home, and in each of those situations deterrence was all I had, and it worked. *I just intimidated potential attackers with attitude*...[emphasis added]


Now, that's the idea!
That's exactly the best tactic to use, reserving the concealed gun for a last-ditch, save-your-life defense.
But merely having the gun available to you is extremely comforting, just in case intimidation isn't working for you this time.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

I hear what you're saying about escalation vs. de-escalation, and I see your point. A lot of people don't understand that important aspect of 'self-defense' and often don't realize that many and perhaps most 'self-defense' situations can be avoided by avoiding escalating. From what my friends with a CCW permit tell me, that's a big part of CCW training, but I still have to take the course, so perhaps the course will clarify my thinking on this.  Nor do I propose that drawing the pistol without intending to use it is a very intelligent position. 

Yet, I don't know. Many years ago, two homeless guys attacked me outside my apartment, and one had a huge metal bar. I had to fight them off, and wrestle the metal bar away from one of them, while the other hammered on me. Now, they came at me from a distance. I saw them coming. I've worked a lived in rough neighborhoods, and learned a lot about your important point about escalation the hard way (though I'm hoping to learn more in the CCW class), and I've never had a situation where someone came 'out of nowhere,' though I admit it's possible. There was always an approach of some sort, and by the time they were too close to me, it was too late. Dead or alive was sheer luck and attitude at that point. At that proximity, I'd follow your instructions, exactly, but by then, gun or no gun it's still a flip of the coin, it seems like to me. 

Were I in that situation with the two homeless guys again, if I'd concealed the weapon until last minute, as I hear being suggested here, I DEFINITELY would have had to shoot at least one of them as they came at me, maybe both, and I MIGHT have hit one of them, since they weren't going to follow my instructions to keep back. It WAS life or death. If I pulled the weapon BEFORE they got close enough to be a threat, and given them the warning to keep back, I MIGHT have had to shoot one of them and could have shot both of them before they got to me, almost certainly, but judging by how quickly they ran away once I got hold of the metal bar, I'm betting the appearance of the gun would have sent them skittering away. I stood my ground in that case because I wasn't going to deal with a metal bar in the back of the head while running, and I was hemmed in from running - cornered at my front door. I made a tactical decision. I'd rather have had the option to make the same tactical decision at 7 yards, so I didn't have to risk a close up wrestling/fight. Isn't that the point? I have a stun gun and stun baton for up close, and honestly, I'm more comfortable using those at close distances involving being able to be touched - 2-10 yards distance is really the key I want out of a pistol. STAY AWAY. At that distance, while I wouldn't draw it without the intention to use it if I needed to, it seems like it would give me a minute to command a person to stay away, and deal with a certain threat if they're really committed to harming me. 

Helping others is pretty vague to me, so I can't comment on that. 

Thanks for your help and thoughts on this guys!


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## RolandD (Apr 28, 2016)

Phillip65 said:


> Were I in that situation with the two homeless guys again, if I'd concealed the weapon until last minute, as I hear being suggested here, I DEFINITELY would have had to shoot at least one of them as they came at me, maybe both, and I MIGHT have hit one of them, since they weren't going to follow my instructions to keep back. It WAS life or death. If I pulled the weapon BEFORE they got close enough to be a threat, and given them the warning to keep back, I MIGHT have had to shoot one of them and could have shot both of them before they got to me, almost certainly, but judging by how quickly they ran away once I got hold of the metal bar, I'm betting the appearance of the gun would have sent them skittering away.


I think the point is don't draw your weapon until the situation escalates to the point where you are justified in pulling the trigger. Being threatened by two assailants, one with a steel bar, would definitely be a justified situation.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Phillip65 said:


> I hear what you're saying about escalation vs. de-escalation, and I see your point. A lot of people don't understand that important aspect of 'self-defense' and often don't realize that many and perhaps most 'self-defense' situations can be avoided by avoiding escalating. From what my friends with a CCW permit tell me, that's a big part of CCW training, but I still have to take the course, so perhaps the course will clarify my thinking on this. Nor do I propose that drawing the pistol without intending to use it is a very intelligent position.
> 
> Yet, I don't know. Many years ago, two homeless guys attacked me outside my apartment, and one had a huge metal bar. I had to fight them off, and wrestle the metal bar away from one of them, while the other hammered on me. Now, they came at me from a distance. I saw them coming. I've worked a lived in rough neighborhoods, and learned a lot about your important point about escalation the hard way (though I'm hoping to learn more in the CCW class), and I've never had a situation where someone came 'out of nowhere,' though I admit it's possible. There was always an approach of some sort, and by the time they were too close to me, it was too late. Dead or alive was sheer luck and attitude at that point. At that proximity, I'd follow your instructions, exactly, but by then, gun or no gun it's still a flip of the coin, it seems like to me.
> 
> ...


Hopefully when you draw a weapon the sight of it might stop the threat. Chances are that you will only have a split second to decide whether to shoot or not. There are many hardened criminals out there that do not fear the sight of a gun especially if they are on mind altering drugs as many of them are. Some of those drugs make them feel like they are invincible with super human strength. After all in many instances they are not afraid of getting shot by the police. In addition they might be so doped up on pain killers they may not even realize they've been shot. It is imperative to carry a gun with the greatest amount of stopping power that one can handle accurately. For me it's gotta' be at least a .40 although a .45 is my constant companion.

Chances are that because of the environment they live in many criminals have been involved in violent incidents before, up to and including being shot. If someone were coming at me with a huge metal bar and I couldn't get the hell out of there you're damn right that individual(s) are going to get shot. Of course every incident is different but you may not even have time to order them to stop. As "Steve" mentioned in his post threatening someone with a gun will indeed "put you at a legal disadvantage". Using a gun to defend yourself has to be the last alternative in order to save your life or that of a loved one.

Helping others? Coming to the aid of a stranger brings about a whole new set of problems and circumstances. You'd first have to be able to determine who is the victim and who is the aggressor and whose life is in immediate danger. It may or may not be like throwing a drowning person a life preserver. A complicated situation indeed. Not only that we are not duly authorized law enforcement personnel. It's not up to us to take the law into our own hands. Of course if someone burst into a public place and started indiscriminately shooting people you may want to take action. Your life too would be in immediate danger.

If you are lucky and the threat stops at the first sight of your gun you are not legally justified in shooting that individual(s). As much as one would like to, neither are you justified in shooting someone if you catch them stealing your possessions. Theft is not the type of crime that is punishable by death. Forensic investigators will be able to make a very accurate assessment as to whether the use of deadly force was justified or not. If the case were ever to arise where you did have to use deadly physical force, invoke your 5th Amendment right and do not answer any questions without having a lawyer present. What you say will indeed be used against you.

Unless it's absolutely necessary, about the best thing you can do is to stay out of questionable places especially at night. That includes bars as guns and alcohol certainly do not mix. Just being around intoxicated people while carrying a gun is never a good idea even if the carrier doesn't drink. At least here in Arizona it is illegal to consume alcoholic beverages while out in public while carrying a gun. It probably is in other states as well. If you must go to a bar for a night out on the town it's best to leave your gun at home along with your vehicle.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

All great and helpful thoughts. I'm glad you made the distinction about property and people stopping an engagement. Important stuff! I don't think a lot of gun owners know that, and I think it's important to know those distinctions. News stories have so many tragic tales of gun owners going to jail because they don't know these important points! Was it a rap artist who had a stand off with the police because he used his gun to intimidate some girl who he was trying to charm and she ran away...? Not the smoothest move, IMHO... I prefer a little Miles Davis played on 3 in the background, perhaps some dimmed lights and sweet talk... pistol seems like the wrong tool for that job!


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> But it should remain concealed until you actually need to shoot.


This is key to my self defense strategy.

Because I am not absolutely sure of how my motor skills are going to be affected by a potentially deadly confrontation, it is my opinion that I should make the decision about whether to shoot at a human being before actually pointing a gun at them. Once the gun is out and pointed, the time for de-escalating the situation has probably passed, and the act of drawing a gun makes it very likely that somebody is going to get hurt. An immediate surrender or withdrawal might change that, but the odds are not great that it would come quick enough to avoid shots being fired.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

Bisley said:


> Once the gun is out and pointed, the time for de-escalating the situation has probably passed, and the act of drawing a gun makes it very likely that somebody is going to get hurt. An immediate surrender or withdrawal might change that, but the odds are not great that it would come quick enough to avoid shots being fired.


I'm not really thinking in "probablies" but in the context of "probablies" you may be right, I don't know.

The reason I bought a pistol is coming home to a VERY specific scenario. Nothing abstract, and nothing I can do about it. I don't hang out in bars, nor do I mess around with nonsense. I'm not worried about vague scenarios walking around somewhere. I can't argue those, perhaps in those, you're correct, I can't say. I'm talking about a very specific set of events that share a common theme when I come home, because my neighborhood is shadier that it was when I first bought the place, and I'm under water, so I can't move yet.

I usually have 15 yards of some punk seeing me and deciding to engage with me.

In every case I've run into, it's a 10-15 yard walking approach, from a target speaking and acting in a threatening manor. Not a running immanent approach from 15 yards. So, the threat doesn't become 'immanent' until the person is pretty close. like 5 yards or so. So, I figure the moment of firing and killing someone is maybe 3-4 yards, minimum for a walking target who has established himself as a threat during a 7-10 yard approach and ignores verbal warnings to leave me alone and stay away.

So, you're going to drill him down at 5 yards? You aren't going to say anything? Just wait while he approaches in an obnoxious way, and drill him down? Ok. At what point? 7 yards? 5? 4? And he gets' NO warning or notice that you are armed and willing to take lethal action? At what yardage does killing someone for approaching you in a fairly threatening way (but not running towards you) become legally, morally and tactically sound?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how drawing and providing a warning not to approach any further at around 7-10 yards once he's established himself as a threat ISN'T the most tactical, moral, and legal thing to do. In that scenario, I think IMMANENT threat is around 5 yards, and that's when I would imagine you have the legal right to fire to my understanding. I don't see why I SHOULDN'T draw at 7, provide a warning if I can, and fire at 5, if he ignores the warning. So, you're saying, draw and fire at the last minute - the moment of 'immanent threat'? Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Why not draw at two yards sooner and give a verbal warning?

Please, no more abstractions, I'm not buying a gun to defend myself against abstract scenarios. This is the ONLY scenario I'm really worried about. That is the EXACT situation I'm imagining, nothing abstract. In the abstract, I don't know what to say, and honestly, I don't care. I don't go to weird places where people 'might' hurt me, I don't hang out in random places where 'maybes' happen. I'm a middle aged man with his boring little routines and generally pleasant little life who found himself under-water in a condo mortgage and watched his nice neighborhood get shady around him, but can't move, and keeps running into random punks late at night wandering by, wanting to randomly mess with him, perhaps because no-one else is around that late at night. They usually shout something at him as he's getting out of his car, coming home from a late night at work, he tries to ignore them, they keep approaching with that, "Hey, you, I want to talk to you! Hey, hey F****er! I'm TALKING TO YOU!!!" This is the place, this is the scenario, there is no maybe or possibility about it. Nothing I can do about it. I'd move if I could. Blame the banks, it's a product of the housing market crash. Seriously, what's your strategy in THAT SPECIFIC SCENARIO, because that is EXACTLY the scenario that I'm concerned about and want to protect myself against. Nothing abstract.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

One of my primary thoughts of self defense is:

Look Prickly.

Predators typically leave porcupines alone and go after easier prey.

That does not mean flashing guns,

but like a coral snake's bright colors, your demeanor, motions, confidence tell others: Leave me alone.

Yet a coral snake's bite is often fatal, so be prepared to deal with those who cant take the hint.


Other non-lethal options include skunk oil mace, flash bangs- firecrackers if legal, or maybe even a compressed air USCG approved hand-held mini distress horn.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Phillip65 said:


> I'm not really thinking in "probablies" but in the context of "probablies" you may be right, I don't know.
> 
> The reason I bought a pistol is coming home to a VERY specific scenario. Nothing abstract, and nothing I can do about it. I don't hang out in bars, nor do I mess around with nonsense. I'm not worried about vague scenarios walking around somewhere. I can't argue those, perhaps in those, you're correct, I can't say. I'm talking about a very specific set of events that share a common theme when I come home, because my neighborhood is shadier that it was when I first bought the place, and I'm under water, so I can't move yet.
> 
> ...


Unless anyone of us is actually there no one here can tell you exactly what you should or shouldn't do. We can only provide you with general information that many of us have learned from taking firearms and self defense courses. There are probably an infinite number of different situations one may face. All I can say is that you'd better be damn sure that your life is in immediate danger before resorting to the use of deadly physical force. Someone cursing at you or the feeling that you may be harmed just will not cut it.

Maybe you could get a neighborhood watch program started. Or call the police and report each and every incident. I don't know, but then again I'm not there. Only you can be the judge as to what action you should take.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

Very helpful stuff. Thanks!


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Phillip,

You are correct that I speak in 'abstract' terms, as does anyone who is not facing your specific threat. I can only plan for scenarios that I suspect might happen.

In your case, you must determine what is the best response, short of lethal force. Obviously, the people who harass you either see you as a potential victim, or they are testing everybody as a potential victim - maybe not for assault, but possibly for aggressive panhandling. It is very hard to know the difference between dangerous people and aggressive beggars, and I have no experience to draw from to advise you.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

Well, more like drunk/high punks looking for a fight/conflict who live nearby. 

But you've been very helpful, and I appreciate the back and forth. I think you guys challenged me in exactly the right ways and got me thinking about responsible handgun use for self defense, which is what I was looking for. I'm re-thinking in all the right ways, and REALLY looking forward to the CCW class and am going to be prepared to listen hard and ask good questions, so you guys have been a great resource, thank you!


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Phillip65 said:


> Well, more like drunk/high punks looking for a fight/conflict who live nearby.
> 
> But you've been very helpful, and I appreciate the back and forth. I think you guys challenged me in exactly the right ways and got me thinking about responsible handgun use for self defense, which is what I was looking for. I'm re-thinking in all the right ways, and *REALLY looking forward to the CCW class* and am going to be prepared to listen hard and ask good questions, so you guys have been a great resource, thank you!


Well "Phillip", you're welcome! Taking the class is a great first step. One other bit of advise; If at all possible you want to avoid any confrontation like the plague. The other thing I forgot to mention is that if you see these punks hanging out, by all means don't park or get out of your car. Just drive to your local police station and explain the situation. More than likely they would have a squad car follow you home. At least I hope they would. It's a God damn shame you can't feel comfortable in your own neighborhood. I hope for your sake that you will eventually be able to get the hell out of there.


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## Phillip65 (Sep 1, 2016)

Thanks! And Phillip is my real name.


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## OldManMontgomery (Nov 2, 2013)

My major disagreement with the essay is the unspoken assumption no one will, or should, carry a double action revolver. I got the feeling he isn't aware they exist. 

Double action revolvers are quite reliable, dispose of suitable power - as with semi-automatic pistols, depending on caliber - and are reasonably easy to fire and accurately deliver one's shots. Most of them don't have manual safeties, either. They are supremely simple, even.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Phillip65 said:


> Thanks! And Phillip is my real name.


I think I understand your situation with the condo, neighborhood n all.

I agree with your reason for not shooting people down.

Are you , or have you been the aggressive party in the past? Calling cops, trying to improve the neighborhood, fed up etc.

Sounds like they're playing around , but playing tough , within the law. The homeless definitely know their rights.

Then again I could be far off.

Good luck with your situation.

:smt1099


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## BZimm (Feb 29, 2016)

Steve, I'm happy to have read that article. I don't own a modern revolver at this point, and would never (hardly ever) consider using the ones I have in an emergency situation. Eventually I will start down the revolver road though, and the article brought up thoughts of what action I will choose. I appreciate that because it is a decision that I will not make lightly. To me the article reinforced my feelings of running lots of ammunition down range to make myself as comfortable as possible. And even more dry fire practice in simulation around the house and property. Thank You.

BZimm


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