# Carry w Safety On or Off?



## zogger (Jul 11, 2015)

I was wondering how people are carrying their Berettas (92s and Px4s)? Do you carry with the safety on or off?

I carry with the safety on and then flip the safety off as I draw.

Looking fwd to hear what others do.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I don't carry a double action pistol. All of my carry guns are classed as DAO's. Only one of them has a settable safety and with that one, the safety is always off when I am carrying it. The last thing I want is to have to worry or think about a safety if I have to draw a gun and use it.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

My view (and this all boils down to personal preferences...) is that DA guns should be carried with the safety off. Personally, I won't carry a DA gun that has a thumb safety. An unintentional engagement of the thumb safety is a failure point if the weapon is needed. The only gun I will carry with the thumb safety engaged is the 1911 (which I rarely carry, except when out in the back country). DA guns should come with a decocker, not a safety.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

zogger said:


> I was wondering how people are carrying their Berettas (92s and Px4s)? Do you carry with the safety on or off?
> 
> I carry with the safety on and then flip the safety off as I draw.
> 
> Looking fwd to hear what others do.


Safety off! It's just one more thing you have to do. Will you remember to do it in time? What if your thumb slips? What happens in a fraction of a second could cost you your life. No matter how many times you practice. I've practiced so many times with a 1911 that I have it down to a science. But still I am not 100% sure I could do it in time in case of an armed confrontation. I have since switched to a Glock G30 as my primary self defense weapon.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

If I were rocking a 92 it would be decocker only.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

One of the drills I do at the range is two second face, two second edge, then repeat both one more time.

The target starts with an edge presentation. When it flips to face, you have two seconds to draw and fire two rounds. It then goes to edge for two seconds in which time you have to do a reload and go to full battery for the next flip to face for two seconds when you fire your second two rounds. The targets are 7" paper plates at 15 feet. Try it. It's fun and a good drill to use. I would not want a gun with a safety when performing this drill.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Do what you are comfortable with doing, however, make sure it's the "only way you do it." If you train instinctively to disengage the decocker when drawing from a holster on your Beretta so be it. 

My brother also prefers carrying his Beretta's with the safety engaged as you. I prefer decocker's only on my Beretta's and feel the first DA pull weight and length of pull is ample for my preference.

Odds are for most of us an unintentional discharge by the operator with a 5 1/2 pound DAO pistol with no external safety is more likely (i.e. glock-legged) than failure to disengage your decocker on a draw if you are instinctively trained to do so. Just my opinion.


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## zogger (Jul 11, 2015)

When carrying a 1911, isn't it standard to be "cocked & locked"? Meaning the hammer is back but the thumb safety is on? Isn't that the same as having the 92's safety on? In both cases you have to take the safety off to fire.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Yes...


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## Philco (Apr 17, 2012)

My CZ Rami offers the option to carry "cocked and locked" (hammer cocked with the safety engaged) or to carry with the hammer down or in half cocked position and the safety off. You can't engage the safety unless the hammer is fully cocked. I prefer to carry with hammer down and the safety off. That gives me a double action first shot followed by up to 14 more shots in single action mode.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

zogger said:


> When carrying a 1911, isn't it standard to be "cocked & locked"? Meaning the hammer is back but the thumb safety is on? Isn't that the same as having the 92's safety on? In both cases you have to take the safety off to fire.


That is how a 1911 is designed to be carried. The difference is that the 1911 is a SA pistol with a short, light trigger pull (or at least, that's what it's supposed to have... junk does exist). The Beretta is a DA/SA or DAO with a long, heavy first pull. Just like firing a revolver. That is why many believe that a thumb safety on such a gun is at best unnecessary and at worst dangerous.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

No reason to have the safety on when the gun has a heavy first-shot trigger pull like a D.A. revolver, but (of course) it's up to you.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

DirtyDog said:


> My view (and this all boils down to personal preferences...) is that DA guns should be carried with the safety off. Personally, I won't carry a DA gun that has a thumb safety. An unintentional engagement of the thumb safety is a failure point if the weapon is needed. The only gun I will carry with the thumb safety engaged is the 1911 (which I rarely carry, except when out in the back country). DA guns should come with a decocker, not a safety.


Same here. That's why I like the Sigarms & Glocks.

But I have one exception: MY HKUSP 45 has such a positive thumb safety, it NEVER goes on unintentionally. It takes considerable effort to thumb it down.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

If you are used to carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, you can do the same with a DA and it's lever safety, although my personal preference on a DA/SA would be hammer down and safety off. I solve the dilemma by carrying striker fired guns, mostly.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Bisley said:


> If you are used to carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, you can do the same with a DA and it's lever safety, although my personal preference on a DA/SA would be hammer down and safety off. I solve the dilemma by carrying striker fired guns, mostly.


The problem with that is "most" DA autos with safeties work in the opposite direction on the 1911 so that if you are used to the 1911 (up = safe / down = fire) throwing in a gun that is up = fire / down = safe can be problematic.

I've all ready seen one knuckle head get confused going from a 1911 to a Walther P22 and forgetting how the safety worked...one ND later and I think he figured it out.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

VAMarine said:


> The problem with that is "most" DA autos with safeties work in the opposite direction on the 1911 so that if you are used to the 1911 (up = safe / down = fire) throwing in a gun that is up = fire / down = safe can be problematic.
> 
> I've all ready seen one knuckle head get confused going from a 1911 to a Walther P22 and forgetting how the safety worked...one ND later and I think he figured it out.


Man, you really nailed me on that one. I actually sent my Walther P-22 into S&W for repair, because I was too stupid to read the instructions. What really threw me was that the Walther safety only keeps the firing pin from engaging the primer - it still lets you pull the trigger and the hammer still operates. You are right, I was truly a knucklehead on that one.

Good one! :smt023


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Bisley said:


> Man, you really nailed me on that one. I actually sent my Walther P-22 into S&W for repair, because I was too stupid to read the instructions. What really threw me was that the Walther safety only keeps the firing pin from engaging the primer - it still lets you pull the trigger and the hammer still operates. You are right, I was truly a knucklehead on that one.
> 
> Good one! :smt023


Totally by accident.  this case was even worse as dude swore up and down the gun was firing (it wasn't as the safety was on) thinking the safety was off. To put a feather in his cap during the argument he put the weapon on fire (thinking it was on safe) and pulled the trigger sending a shot into the dirt.

He was pretty embarrassed.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

I have Beretta DAs and SAs. And after getting my Sig, I now favor de-cock as the better way to carry... hence my intent to add a CZ PCR to my collection.

I think I can update my 96a1 to a DA de-cocker only by swapping the safety.

On my Beretta DAs I thumb the safety to de-cock+safety on, then thumb the safety off. As stated previously, now my safety is a double-action trigger pull along with the firing pin block connected to the trigger.

My SAs are used for range-target shooting and the safety seems more applicable to that environment.

Also when unloading, IMO it seems safer to clear from a de-cocked state - pop mag, cycle clear, inspect, de-cock.
Cycling-unloading from a cocked state leaves a moment's chance that a finger may slip during the process and cause a discharge.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

VAMarine said:


> Totally by accident.  this case was even worse as dude swore up and down the gun was firing (it wasn't as the safety was on) thinking the safety was off. To put a feather in his cap during the argument he put the weapon on fire (thinking it was on safe) and pulled the trigger sending a shot into the dirt.
> 
> He was pretty embarrassed.


I did, at least, use a new snap cap and then looked for strike marks, but still did not figure it out. Anyway, the Walther got a nice 8 day vacation on its round trip to Massachusetts, a Fed Ex guy got an education on his company's policy on shipping firearms, and my gun magically worked when I got it back, even though they said nothing was wrong with it.

That's when I decided to read the instructions.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Imo, if your gun is equipped with a safety,,,,whether you carry with the safety on or off ,,,it should be automatic to feel the safeties position before an engagement..

Safeties can be inadvertently engaged or disengaged without knowing .


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## zogger (Jul 11, 2015)

*Still Confused*

First, tx for all the comments. It got me thinking (not always a good thing my wife says!)

I own both a 92FS and a 1911. So I can work with both to try different approaches.

Please bear with the long wording below.

The recommended way to carry the 1911 is locked and loaded (hammer cocked and thumb safety on). You are protected from a discharge because 1) no finger on the trigger 2) the grip safety is on 3) the thumb safety is on. So even if the thumb safety was off, you are protected by the other two. The concern is the SA low poundage, short travel 1911 trigger makes it easy to fire the gun with just a small amount of pressure on the trigger. This is what makes the gun nice to shoot but a concern for discharges.

When you draw it, the grip safety is turned off due to you gripping it, and you are to push down on the thumb safety, and then finger on the trigger (assuming you want to shoot).

What I have found is that if you leave you thumb on top of the thumb safety, there is a tendency to not grip the gun right and hence not disengage the grip safety. So it seems that if you move your thumb below the thumb safety after you push down on the thumb safety, your grip is good enough to disengage the grip safety.

So on a 1911, you need to train to 1) grip the gun properly to disengage the grip safety 2) as your shooting hand grips the gun, push down on the thumb safety with you thumb 3) move the thumb on your shooting hand to below the thumb safety 4) make sure your grip is still good to disengage the grip safety.

Now with the 92:

If you carry it with the safety on, you are protected by 1) no finger on trigger 2) trigger disengaged 3) DA trigger pull. If you carry with safety off and decocked, you are protected by 1) no finger on trigger 2) DA trigger pull.

If you carry the 92 with the safety on, then as you draw you use the thumb of your shooting hand to flip up on the safety and then put your finger on the trigger. You need to put strong pressure on the trigger since you are in DA.

If you carry the 92 with the safety off, then as you draw you put your finger on the trigger. You need to put strong pressure on the trigger since you are in DA.

Contrasting the above. If you carry the 92 with the safety on, you are "1911" like. But I would contend that because you push up on the safety and don't need to re-position your thumb that this makes it more likely you would "remember" to disengage the 92 safety over the 1911's two safety's.

If you carry the 92 with the safety off, then you are "Glock like" where the long trigger pull and poundage are your "safety".

Have I described things correctly?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

zogger said:


> If you carry the 92 with the safety off, then you are "Glock like" where the long trigger pull and poundage are your "safety".
> 
> Have I described things correctly?


I agree with everything you've stated but the above. The 92 DA trigger is not Glock like but more revolver like, relatively long and generally in the 10 to 12 pound pull weight range and you have an exposed hammer.

Whereas, the Glock trigger(or any striker fired trigger) is generally a much shorter pull and about 4.5 to 5.7 pounds in general(some may be heavier or lighter), however, you can make a Glock type trigger heavier in pull a.k.a. a NY trigger up to about a 11 pound pull or so.


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## Ziegler1776 (Aug 24, 2015)

Think about it this way. If you were in a high stress level and needed to pull your firearm, would you remember to flip off your safety? If you second guess if you can or not then off it should be. I carry with no safety for that reason. I dont want to be in the situation and have more to think about than i already have too.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Yet on the 92/96,

when you engage the safety you *also* de-cock resulting in a DA trigger pull in addition to having to disengage the safety.


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## zogger (Jul 11, 2015)

*A Summary*

So to summarize the various comments:

1) Never carry a gun with a safety since you might forget to disengage it
2) If your gun has a safety, do not carry with the safety engaged

Applying this:
-*Never carry a 1911*. The recommended way to carry it requires the thumb safety engaged. This violates rule 1. Also it has a grip safety that you cannot disengage which also violates rule 1 & 2.

-If you carry a 92 like pistol, carry it decocked but the safety off. Alternately, either buy a version with just a decocker or have the safety on yours made into a decocker only.

-Carry either a revolver or a striker fired pistol that has no safety. A striker pistol like the M&P Shield would have to be carried with the safety off. Better yet, don't carry a Shield since you might accidentally engage the safety.

Did I summarize things right?


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Looks like your summary is pretty good.

So that begs the next questions: Why carry loaded and ready to shoot? Why even have a safety?

Safeties are designed to prevent accidental firing. Perhaps best employed at the gun range, or where a drawn weapon needs to quickly go from Hot to Safe then back to Hot again.
This would seem dependent on the event and the abilities of the shooter.

Perhaps many of the skilled shooters here consider safeties like training wheels - needed until the discipline and use mean you are better without.

Carrying loaded and ready to shoot, where a safety adds critical seconds to the shot, implies you are in a situation so fragile, one might wonder why you have even allowed yourself into such a predicament. 
Certainly training and technique will allow you to carry and draw effectively and safely with or without a device to assist you.

But we are all human and can in the blink of an eye fumble and do something wrong. Safeties are an added device to protect us. 
Whether you do better with or without probably *depends upon you.*

Are you disciplined? Are you constantly in harm's way? Can you effectively add the safe off or even the load cycle to your draw.
Obviously an empty chamber is safest way of all to carry - but may not be the most effective for you.

Personally I like SA with a safety at the range. If there is an issue, I can immediately stop and safe, wait for the all clear, and with a click, resume shooting.

If I'm hauling cash or something of a higher threat risk, I prefer a de-cocker DA where response to an aggressor needs to be immediate.
And part of my draw is the tell-tale click of a hammer cock - even if I do not need to. That little noise can unsettle an aggressor and give you an edge.

If you're still perplexed about safeties,

buy a revolver.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

zogger said:


> So to summarize the various comments:
> 
> 1) Never carry a gun with a safety since you might forget to disengage it
> 2) If your gun has a safety, do not carry with the safety engaged
> ...


It's all a matte of opinion and perspective.

1: The M&P and Shield can be had without the thumb safety.

2: If you train, the safety is a non issue.

3: if you don't train...safety is an issue and maybe a manual safety is a good thing.

I can take them or leave them. There is no difference in my draw to first shot with or without a thumb safety on two almost identical pistols.

I would not carry a Shield with the thumb safety (if so equipped) engaged as it just too small to engage reliably under stress. The same goes for several Rugers. The Shield saftey was designed to try and please both camps, those that wanted a safety and those that didn't by making it small enough to be out of the way...which too me translates to too small for those that want it.

The market still wanted one sans safety and would be my choice in that pistol.

There is no one size fits all answer.


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## zogger (Jul 11, 2015)

Thanks for the carefully thought out responses.

I am not too the point that I feel it's right for me to carry wo the safety on. So,I practice at home and at the range drawing the pistol and flipping the safety off as I draw. I also practice with the gun already out and as I raise it, flip the safety off. We will see how I feel in the future.

My only other comment is that based on the feedback, nobody should be carrying a 1911. But it is a very popular carry gun! I do recall reading on a site where a guy got into a situation where he had to draw his 1911 and actually try to fire it. But because he never practiced at the range flipping the off, he forgot and left the safety on! Fortunately the bad guy saw the gun and fled. This guy now practices taking the safety off before he fires.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

There was a time when the 1911 was THE GUN.

For years it was my carry and only once did I have the need for a live round in the chamber. The Safety was on.

Since then, many new pistols have been introduced along with new training and ways to use these pistols.

Again it rolls around to what works for you. It also can change as you experience using different pistols and increase your knowledge, skills, and abilities.

So find the safest and most effective firearm for you as well as the best way to use it.


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