# Full-on rant......plumbers / electricians beware!!



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I was reminded just today how crooked the plumbing industry and plumbers are in general. We're still at my father's house getting things done for him and his care-giver.

His care-giver was saying how much she would like to have a garbage disposal in the kitchen sink. It's already wired for one, there's a switch on the wall and a wall plug under the sink.

We stopped by Home Depot a few days ago and bought a decent disposal for $99.95. USA made and all that jazz.

The plumber stops by today to give us an estimate for the work we wanted done. I also wanted a Moen push/pull faucet in the tub / shower repaired, as it's frozen up from not being used enough. All that it required is a replacement insert cartridge.

I'm not a plumber obviously, but I have a very good idea as to how long each task should take. The disposal should require an hour or so labor. The control valve in the tub / shower, maybe 30 min. if it's not corroded too very badly. Let's say a total of two hours for both projects for the sake of argument.

The plumber sat down and got his guide manual out and started figuring an estimate. When he was done, he presented the estimate to me. It was almost $575.00.

I said something like Jesus F'N Christ. He said that he's just going by the industry guidelines. He was a nice enough guy and I told him that I realized that it wasn't his fault.

I had a 3rd project that I wanted done, that involved installing a full-port ball valve in an open and very accessible location, in a standard copper line so that a hose bib could be turned on / off from inside the house. Almost $230.00 just to do that.

All in all, all 3 projects came to almost $800.00. After I peeled myself off the wall, I told him that his price was ludicrous and that it wasn't going to happen.

I asked him what his hourly rate was, and he said they don't go by the hour any more. They charge by the specific job required. I told him that I used to be a cop, and I once responded to a traffic accident and pulled three people from two burning cars and to safety. I told him at that time, my hourly rate was a little under $30.00 an hour. It took me about 3 min. to do what I did.

At least he didn't charge me a fee just to come out and give an estimate. The first plumbing company I called, wanted $70.00 just to show up and give an estimate........prior to any work being done.

I'm sure that electricians are every bit as bad as plumbers. Bunch of crooks, the whole f'n industry. I plan to go on CL and write my own ad in regards to getting a plumber to give up a couple hours of their time and see if he/she will do it for anything less than a king's Ransom.


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## OldManMontgomery (Nov 2, 2013)

Do it yourself. It ain't rocket science. 

Special tools are nice.


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

That's good, cause p'trooper ain't no scientist, rocket or otherwise :anim_lol:


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

You need to talk to someone else about your plumbing. 

GW


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

If I lived close I would do it for ammo!


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

$100-$150 for the garbage disposal, $100 for the labor for the ball valve plus the valve (1/2", 3/4",1" - the price varies on size and quality). You should be able to find someone to do it for these numbers. Perhaps a handyman rather than a "smell good" plumber.


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2013)

good luck


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Supply, demamd, and local regulations typically pump the price up.

Most electrical and plumbing I do myself, but the dishwasher was an installed job. Shop around and look for a general contractor, not a specialized plumber.

Also Home Depot outsources repair jobs and we had very good service with some cabinet/door work and a fair price.

It does get to be a problem when the labor source is thin as they charge more. When work is scarce you get much better pricing. 
Shop around and don't do hourly - pay by the job - and check references. Guarantees and follow up are often part of the price so don't go too cheap.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

the ball shut off valve is a snap. Either sweat one on or now they have new compression ones that work fine. Garbage disposal is no big deal as long as wiring is in place. Is the sink drain fitting also in place? That could take a little fooling around with. $800 for your three jobs does sound a little much. BTW, you might want to take that disposal back and swap it for the $139 one. I installed one of the $99 specials about 18 months ago and the bearings went out of it last month. Had to go get the heavier one from Home Depot. Should have done that one to begin with. None of them are made that well anymore and I was surprised the first one only lasted 18 months (just 6 months out of manufacturer's warranty, of course), so take my advice, if you're going to do it anyhow, get the heavier duty one now rather than later. Of course it's probably a function of how much use they get but there are just two of us in the house now, and the first one only lasted 18 months, as I mentioned. Good luck.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

You have to shop around. If a contractor has plenty of work, he prices high because he doesn't care if he gets the bid or not. It's capitalism - charging whatever the market will bear. Nowadays, there are too many easy marks out there who will pay too much. A frugal person has a lot of trouble negotiating a fair deal for anything, be it buying a gun, securing a hunting lease, buying a car - because there are too many people who simply go by whether or not they can make the payments, rather than getting a fair price.

I just spent a week sawing up four oak trees that a storm took down. I'll spend another week cleaning it all up. All of this because I wouldn't pay a contractor $1000 for doing something I could accomplish myself. The contractor would have completed the entire job in a day, but I wouldn't pay it. In retrospect, it would have been a fair deal, but I couldn't see it at the time. But, I still have the $1000, so now I can replace the trampoline that the trees landed on, and get the grandkids off my back. :mrgreen:


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Tree guys are a rip off also. Gotta watch out for them. All are way overpriced and don't do what you want so get a contract in writing if you deal with any of them.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

BackyardCowboy said:


> That's good, cause p'trooper ain't no scientist, rocket or otherwise :anim_lol:


Nope! But he has the amazingly rare talent of being able to say "THIS is where my talents stop."


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

no guts, no glory..........

how do we learn other than by our mistakes..... from the Plumbing handbook??? Real men never read the instructions first, only afterwards when they can't figure it out any other way...!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I went on CL and found a handyman site. He's coming out tomorrow to give me an estimate.

In regards to abilities and specialties, I have and can perform many. It's just that they are, well....let's say, highly defined and extremely specialized. 

"When push turns to shove", I'm your man. :numbchuck:


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

RK3369 said:


> the ball shut off valve is a snap. Either sweat one on or now they have new compression ones that work fine. Garbage disposal is no big deal as long as wiring is in place. Is the sink drain fitting also in place? That could take a little fooling around with. $800 for your three jobs does sound a little much. BTW, you might want to take that disposal back and swap it for the $139 one. I installed one of the $99 specials about 18 months ago and the bearings went out of it last month. Had to go get the heavier one from Home Depot. Should have done that one to begin with. None of them are made that well anymore and I was surprised the first one only lasted 18 months (just 6 months out of manufacturer's warranty, of course), so take my advice, if you're going to do it anyhow, get the heavier duty one now rather than later. Of course it's probably a function of how much use they get but there are just two of us in the house now, and the first one only lasted 18 months, as I mentioned. Good luck.


Insinkerator disposal, everything else is just a Taurus


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> I went on CL and found a handyman site. He's coming out tomorrow to give me an estimate.
> 
> In regards to abilities and specialties, I have and can perform many. It's just that they are, well....let's say, highly defined and extremely specialized.
> 
> "When push turns to shove", I'm your man. :numbchuck:


Use your professional street smart skills , you may need them when dealing with CL. 
I Deal with craigslist from time to time. I usually do the business in the driveway.
Only , a very small percentage need to be weeded out.
Sometimes I think it's better to pay the extra, especially since you'll be gone back home.
If there is a future problem with the install, who's gonna back up the work?
The craigslist guy. IMO


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm actually re-thinking the disposal install. We still have to speak to his care-giver and discuss a raise and/or some of her time-off stipulations.

If we can't come to an agreement with her, it looks as if I might move to my father's house either with his care-giver still here and I would share her duties, or I would move here to his home and take care of him by myself until he passes.

If the care-giver stays here and I still move in, she's going to have to agree to a reduction in pay that could be substantial.

My father is *NOT* doing well. He may have one year left, if even that. I don't want him to pass w/o having family at his side.

If that means my wife and I living apart for a while, that's what will happen. We've discussed it a bit already, and she's okay with that.

My younger brother arrives this coming Saturday, and we will have a lot to discuss with him, as I want his input as well.

If I do move in with my father, he will save a substantial amount of $$'s. Anyways, I have a ton on my mind, and I'm sorting thru it piece by piece.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Sorry to hear ,,real tough decisions. Wishing you the best through a tough time.
:smt1099


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

PM sent 'Troop

GW


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

goldwing said:


> PM sent 'Troop
> 
> GW


Received and greatly appreciated. :smt023


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

pic said:


> Sorry to hear ,,real tough decisions. Wishing you the best through a tough time.
> :smt1099


Thanks for the kind words.


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## ybnorml (Nov 26, 2014)

First of all, I'm sorry to hear of your Dad's failing health and the family issues involved. I know full
well of what's happening, as I went through this same situation with both of my parents.

When you classify all plumbers / electricians as crooks is a low blow to those plumbers / electricians
that are honest and trying to make a living for their families. 
Under this same umbrella, I can classify all cops / leo's / and military personal as crooked and the such, right ??
I have been in the plumbing industry since 1975....and have seen major changes in the way companies do business.

Just because one quote for plumbing issues seemed high to you, and you feel as if you would be ripped-off with the work
doesn't mean all quotes would be in the same ballpark.
I have had bids come in for various projects, with over $250,000 difference between the competing bids. Does this mean the 
high bidders were trying to rip us off ?? Absolutely not !!!

Your generalization of "all plumbers and electricians are crooks" is purely absurd.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Sorry to hear this - it's never an easy time.

Best wishes.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

ybnorml said:


> First of all, I'm sorry to hear of your Dad's failing health and the family issues involved. I know full
> well of what's happening, as I went through this same situation with both of my parents.
> 
> When you classify all plumbers / electricians as crooks is a low blow to those plumbers / electricians
> ...


Point made, and point taken. I was venting to get it out of my system. It doesn't help that some no longer go by the hour. They now quote the job and how long it takes (or doesn't take) doesn't matter.

Lots of m/c shops are now doing the same thing. A while back, I had a shop quote me $75.00 to mount and balance a tire off the bike. We're talking 15 min. of labor......tops!

I was dumb-founded when the plumber quoted me $350.00 to install a garbage disposal. I looked at him and said, Are you serious? He said yes, and that he understood my concern. Apparently, he gets this kind of reaction quite often.

Anyways, I was taking a jab, the same kind that LE gets all too often. There's bad apples in every career / profession on the face of this messed up planet. Just like there's no perfect person. Never has been, and there never will be. You simply cannot expect perfection from a species that is so seriously flawed from the start.


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## ybnorml (Nov 26, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Point made, and point taken. I was venting to get it out of my system. It doesn't help that some no longer go by the hour. They now quote the job and how long it takes (or doesn't take) doesn't matter.
> 
> Lots of m/c shops are now doing the same thing. A while back, I had a shop quote me $75.00 to mount and balance a tire off the bike. We're talking 15 min. of labor......tops!
> 
> ...


It's all good man, no offense taken.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

CL guy and a female helper is here. He looked at the three things I wanted done, said no problem, and quoted me about $200.00 + supplies. 

The plumbing company that came out a few days ago, quoted me right at $800.00 or so. 

CL guy quoted me about an hour for the disposal, and about 30 min. x 2 for the rest. 

This is what I was talking about in my rant. Fair pay for a fair amount of work.


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## ybnorml (Nov 26, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> CL guy and a female helper is here. He looked at the three things I wanted done, said no problem, and quoted me about $200.00 + supplies.
> 
> The plumbing company that came out a few days ago, quoted me right at $800.00 or so.
> 
> ...


Good people / companies are out there, it just takes time to weed out the other not so good ones.
Glad you found them without wasting a lot of valuable time.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

CL plumber and his assistant have come and gone. Everything that I wanted done, was done, and very well mind you. 

Not quite 2 hrs. total labor. Parts and labor came to $245.00

I was so damned happy and pleased, I gave them a $30.00 tip. :smt033


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

You just have to shop around and get multiple estimates. We had to have a sewer line put in and had 5 different estimates. 4 of them came in between $4500 and $8000. No shit, if you'll pardon the pun. Another came in at $1400. Needless to say we went with the $1400. Three people showed up at our house with a backhoe and they were done in less than 6 hours. They were all licensed, bonded and insured. We could not believe the price discrepancy. The owner of the company that we hired said it made him sick that there were others out there ripping people off as soon as they use the word "excavate".

I also had to have a cast iron exhaust manifold for an antique car welded as the flanges were broken off. I went to a restoration shop who advertised that they performed this type of work. They told me it would cost $6500 to have it repaired as they had to pull the engine out of the car to use as a jig in order to get the part to fit right. I thought somethings just not right with this picture. I went through Hemmings Motor News and looked up a cast iron welder who told me to bring the manifold to him and he could fix it. I asked him if I needed to pull the engine out of the car. He looked at me as if I were crazy. So I told him what the owner of the restoration shop said. His reply was that the owner of the restoration shop was "full of shit" as he did all of the cast iron welding for work for him, and that the owner of the shop never sent him an engine along with a manifold. The problem with some of these shops is that people drop off their cars to be restored, they do not know jack shit about them and all they do is sign checks. Same I guess for a lot of things especially when hiring contractors.

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of good people in the trades, you've just got to find them. I consider myself to be very lucky as I can fix damn near anything if it is mechanical in nature or involves hand tools. However there are certain times when you do have to rely on others.

People can also use the internet to look up problems that they are having with mechanical devices and appliances. Many times it is something really simple and within the capabilities of the average homeowner to fix with simple hand tools. I've repaired many different types of appliances during all the years that we've owned a home even before the internet. Saved us a hell of a lot of money and best of all you do not have to depend on someone else. Or even take the chance of being ripped off.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

desertman said:


> You just have to shop around and get multiple estimates. We had to have a sewer line put in and had 5 different estimates. 4 of them came in between $4500 and $8000. No shit, if you'll pardon the pun. Another came in at $1400. Needless to say we went with the $1400. Three people showed up at our house with a backhoe and they were done in less than 6 hours. They were all licensed, bonded and insured. We could not believe the price discrepancy. The owner of the company that we hired said it made him sick that there were others out there ripping people off as soon as they use the word "excavate".
> 
> I also had to have a cast iron exhaust manifold for an antique car welded as the flanges were broken off. I went to a restoration shop who advertised that they performed this type of work. They told me it would cost $6500 to have it repaired as they had to pull the engine out of the car to use as a jig in order to get the part to fit right. I thought somethings just not right with this picture. I went through Hemmings Motor News and looked up a cast iron welder who told me to bring the manifold to him and he could fix it. I asked him if I needed to pull the engine out of the car. He looked at me as if I were crazy. So I told him what the owner of the restoration shop said. His reply was that the owner of the restoration shop was "full of shit" as he did all of the cast iron welding for work for him, and that the owner of the shop never sent him an engine along with a manifold. The problem with some of these shops is that people drop off their cars to be restored, they do not know jack shit about them and all they do is sign checks. Same I guess for a lot of things especially when hiring contractors.
> 
> ...


I've used YouTube a few times to get an idea as to what it takes to do something. At least it gives me an idea as to whether or not I want to mess with what needs to be done.

Cabin filters in vehicles come to mind for one thing............:smt033


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

Glad it worked out for you and it sounds like the pricing was very reasonable!


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

paratrooper:


> At least it gives me an idea as to whether or not I want to mess with what needs to be done.


I hear ya' If you do not care or want to tackle it you will now have a general idea of what is involved or if someone is feeding you a line of bullshit. About the only time I will not attempt to fix something is if I need to buy a special tool that I would only use once and whose cost is a lot more than what the repair would be. I can't tell you how much money we've saved over the years repairing things that have broken. Just recently I fixed our refrigerator which kept icing up, the damn things only 5 years old. Just our luck it started just after the warranty expired. The appliance repairman wanted $300 for a simple fix. Which was to wrap a length of copper wire around the heating coil and extend it down into the drip tube which was getting clogged with ice. Every week there would be about a half inch of ice underneath the crisper bins. Got tired of hearing the wife complain, now she's happy as a pig in shit.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

bigjohn56:


> Glad it worked out for you and it sounds like the pricing was very reasonable!


It was a lot more reasonable than buying a backhoe! For between $4500 and $8000 I could have bought a used one.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I guess it depends on area and availability of craftsman.

I use since years the same general contractor for everything and had just (February) a complete shower redone. Old shower out, new one in. The TAG was $ 430.00 including the new shower-box including the waste taking away, including silicone work water and plumbing connection.
I'll think shopping around is a good advise if you don't know contractors around you. But in general building a general connection to a allways go to contractor is not a bad idea on the long run.


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## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

I'm very fortunate to have a plumber, electrician, and HVAC guys that are trustworthy and affordable.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Back home, I met a guy at a TrueValue hardware store. He's an employee there in the plumbing dept. He's also a retired plumber. 

He still does work on the side with the blessing of the store. He charges $35.00 per hour for labor. About a year ago, I had him help me install a new water heater. Actually, I more or less supervised the work while he did it. 

Anyways, it cost me a little over $105.00 for the labor. He told me that if I hadn't been "helping" him, it would have only been $75.00. :anim_lol:


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Back home, I met a guy at a TrueValue hardware store. He's an employee there in the plumbing dept. He's also a retired plumber.
> 
> He still does work on the side with the blessing of the store. He charges $35.00 per hour for labor. About a year ago, I had him help me install a new water heater. Actually, I more or less supervised the work while he did it.
> 
> Anyways, it cost me a little over $105.00 for the labor. He told me that if I hadn't been "helping" him, it would have only been $75.00. :anim_lol:


My Dad (wooden boat builder/restorer/designer) had a sign on the shop door:

"Hourly Rate... $25
You Watch ... $50
You Help ... $75"

Everyone just left him in peace to do the beautiful work he did.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

My friendly local gunsmith, back in Los Angeles, displayed a similar sign. But it was quite selective.
I felt blessed that he allowed me to do my own work in his shop, since he had tools that I didn't have, and he even helped me with the necessary lathe work and machine milling.

If I'd done all of the preliminary work at home, and came to him with only the machining to do, I was never charged a cent. I believe that he enjoyed teaching me.
I learned all sorts of useful things, including why all of the smaller nuts and bolts always live at the bottom of the storage jar.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> M<snip Good Stuff>
> I learned all sorts of useful things, including why all of the smaller nuts and bolts always live at the bottom of the storage jar.


For the same reason you always find things in the last place you look?


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

SailDesign said:


> For the same reason you always find things in the last place you look?


Usually. In this case the little stuff just falls through the ******.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

hillman said:


> ...In this case the little stuff just falls through the ********. [emphasis added]


_Political Incorrectness!!!_ Penalty: Five Yards!


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> _Political Incorrectness!!!_ Penalty: Five Yards!


"*Chinques*" is how it SHOULD be spelt, anyway.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

RK3369 said:


> Tree guys are a rip off also. Gotta watch out for them. All are way overpriced and don't do what you want so get a contract in writing if you deal with any of them.


It's a mixed bag, in my locale. I've been ripped off once, grudgingly satisfied once, and been completely satisfied once. The last guy I had out had some minor experience as an Oregon lumberjack. He was an absolute professional, by local standards, but he bid my job too cheap. He 'delivered the goods,' as promised, anyway, so I gave him a $200 tip. Unfortunately, he moved back to Oregon, else I would have hired him and probably would have accepted whatever bid he made.

So, I avoid making blanket statements about contractors. There are good ones around.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Bisley said:


> It's a mixed bag, in my locale. I've been ripped off once, grudgingly satisfied once, and been completely satisfied once. The last guy I had out had some minor experience as an Oregon lumberjack. He was an absolute professional, by local standards, but he bid my job too cheap. He 'delivered the goods,' as promised, anyway, so I gave him a $200 tip. Unfortunately, he moved back to Oregon, else I would have hired him and probably would have accepted whatever bid he made.
> 
> So, I avoid making blanket statements about contractors. There are good ones around.


Same goes for cops! I know I'm pretty much preaching to the choir here, but I just like to remind everyone from time to time.

I can't think of a single profession on the face of this planet that is 100% perfect.


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