# On Buying Handguns; Customer Service/Policy Question



## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

Hi,

I decided to purchase my first handgun and first firearm in years. I went to the "best" store in town and inquired and shot a couple.

Being unsure what style or calibre to purchase I handled many and shot two .40's. Now I would have shot more but here's my question;

This costs almost $50, $10 range fee, $10 rental, $20 50 rounds of ammo, +targets tax etc… I wanted to shoot a couple more but any other calibre's would have cost me ~$30 more!

Should I have been offered some sort of break, some amount applied to a purchase etc…? Heck I would have shot at least 2 more calibres and maybe 3 (.38, 9mm, .45) but now were talking well over $100. I can see one range fee and one rental fee and of course buying ammo from them but to be forced to buy 50 rounds of each even when they only had one rental of certain calibres available...

I'm not looking for a free lunch and there other shops/ranges nearby. Should I shop around more and be looking for some kind of deal?

I would have dropped $6-$700 instead of $50 and not looked elsewhere..…seems like bad business. I do think any "discount" would have to have been only for that day or even before I leave the store.

What are your thoughts and advice? Should I be seeking a deal?

Thanks,

Dignan


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## jtguns (Sep 25, 2011)

The over all cost of test firing several handguns will pay off in the end when you find the right gun for you, meaning that you didn't get the one gun that your comfortable with overall. What you might want to find is someone (friend or coworker) who is into handguns and ask if they could go out with you with some of their guns to test drive. Another would find some other like minded folks and share the cost of rental and ammo.

Remember shoot safe and have fun doing it


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Gun shops and gun ranges are in business to make money. Some more so than others.

Having said that, I would have set down some requirements up front, before laying down any money to rent a gun or buy ammo and targets. Make it very obvious that you are serious about buying a firearm. Let them know that you are concerned about costs (who isn't) and that you want your $$'s to go as far as possible. 

If you don't ask for some special consideration, they aren't going to offer you any. Having said what I've said, I've never rented a firearm in my life, so I don't know how many gun shops have guns available to rent. Obviously, they have to have a range, and many don't. 

Anyways, set some parameters next time up front. Tell the clerk that you want any money spent on renting a gun, buying ammo and targets, credited to the purchase price if you end up buying a gun from them. All they can do is tell you no. If that's their response, either move on to another shop, or bite the bullet and get out your wallet.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Adventure Outdoors (the biggest gun store in Georgia) will let you apply the rental price towards a same day gun purchase. But they charge a per item rental fee which is annoying.

Trigger Time (my favorite range) charges one flat fee for handgun rentals and I can swap out the weapon as many times as I want to (must use their ammo). This really speeds up the selection process. They are patient with me as I go back and forth swapping out weapons, over and over and over. Sweet Deal. : )


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## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

Thanks guys and keep 'em coming!

I'm a student out of state and have not met others to shoot with yet and not sure I will. I'm a graduate geology student and spend extended times alone out in the field and one of my possible regions is Texas near the border. Crossers and critters can tear ya new ones.

So I'm at the mercy of rentals till I decide. 

I'm just not sure how it's done and would like to keep a good relationship with what ever shop I choose so I don't want to make what are unreasonable requests as per the industry.

Love to hear from any shop owners who have an opinion.

Thanks,

Dignan


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## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

@Keith.

Yea I don't mind "paying" $200 on rentals if I can put it towards the purchase. Heck I'd have decided by now and be more talking about my new -fill in the blank. The store would have $600 and a customer who would probably be a range member, ammo accessory buyer…

Not all the shops or any others have indoor ranges around here so I may be SOL but will try again tomorrow to make a deal somehow.

Dignan


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## Gruesome (Apr 30, 2013)

The gun store closest to me charges $20 per gun to rent, $20 range fee, and requires you use their ammo (wildly overpriced.) It is a pretty big ripoff UNLESS you have your choices narrowed down and you really need to sample the merchandise. THEN it can pay off in spades. I would say that if you can fire a gun before. I own a perfectly good gun I can't use because it fits my hand so badly so I know what I'm talking about. Now at the prices you quote, I'd be a happy man.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Gruesome said:


> The gun store closest to me charges $20 per gun to rent, $20 range fee, and requires you use their ammo (wildly overpriced.) It is a pretty big ripoff UNLESS you have your choices narrowed down and you really need to sample the merchandise. THEN it can pay off in spades. I would say that if you can fire a gun before. I own a perfectly good gun I can't use because it fits my hand so badly so I know what I'm talking about. Now at the prices you quote, I'd be a happy man.


Trigger Time is a $12.50 per day range fee, $7.50 handgun rental and you can shoot as many guns as you want, 9mm reloads are $14.95 per 100 rounds. Targets $1.50, eye and ear protection $1.00. Yet I spend more at this range than any other range I have been to. They make it so easy I can't stop.


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## HighlandLofts (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm 40 miles north of Seattle, Washington. The local Shooting range (Norpoint) has bout 55 rental handguns, The cost is $15 for one handgun or $25 for as many as you want to use. You have to buy Range Ammo, so you have to buy 22LR, 380, 38spl (which you can shoot in the 357Mags), 9mm, 40 Cal, 45acp to shoot all of the guns they have. Most people want a certain caliber and only buy the calber of their choice and shoot all of the guns they have in stock in that caliber. 
It's a good way for people to try out a bunch of guns to see what they can shoot comfortably with out having to spend hundreds of dollars for something that they might not want. 
I recommend them to new people that never shot a gun before. 
Norpoint Shooting Range has a web-site if you want to check them out.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Dignan (nice Irish name -- all the other Dignan's that I know live in Boston btw), it's hard to tackle your questions because we don't know where you are from, where you are going to grad school, what the states in relation to your current state are that your studies will take you to (although you mentioned Texas), or how good you are yet with a gun (firearm). All these details weigh heavily on what others including myself are likely to tell you or caution you about.

When I was in your situation but during undergrad, and I had just turned 21, during my last year, I was lucky enough to have a roommate in our 6 person apartment who was a gun collector -- he collected modern guns not antiques. So I got to fire everything he owned. I concluded that the 9mm was the best self defense round for me at the time, and that the Browning High Power design in a Smith & Wesson Model 39 was the bet fitting handgun (a gun that you can shoot with 1 hand -- although 2 hands is still better). So that's what I bought, and it lived with me until I was trained on a somewhat bigger handgun (the 45 ACP 1911A1 by Springfield).

In your case, I would try out the 9mm and if you like it, go with that. As a beginner, I doubt you would be comfortable or proficient with a 45 ACP, and I am certain you would not be comfortable or proficient with a heavier handgun like a 40 cal or a 10 mm.

Now all you need to decide is whether you can be a safe Glock owner without the substantial risk of shooting yourself with it. So try a few Glocks in 9mm (the Model 17 being a classic choice for new shooters). If you manage to shoot yourself at the range with it, then you need to get another make besides a Glock, one with an external hammer that you can see, and several safeties on it that will prevent you from shooting yourself again.

The money you spent on the ammo and the targets is gone. Those cartridges are shot and the targets are shot up. This is a consumption cost, and you should not whine about having to pay it. It costs the same whether you are shooting your own gun or a rental.

The rental fee makes up for the cost of the gun range keeping money invested in rental guns and the wear and tear on them from people shooting them all the time. So you should stop whining about that too.

After you figure out which 9mm to buy, then you can stop wasting 40 cal or 10 mm or 45 ACP ammo and targets.

You are probably a lot safer in Texas than you would be in California, Illinois, Florida, Maryland, NY, or any of the other rat hole Communist states in the USA. So I would not worry too much about Texas, or the border with Mexico. Just don't carry a lot of money on you, and fork it over right away if you get held up. That will cost you a lot less than a gun.

With a gun, you need to invest a lot of money in a good gun, a good holster, good ammo, practice, instruction, and time. Not everyone is cut out to be a good gun owner.

Good luck and good hunting.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Buy something with a full size frame and a barrel longer than 4 inches in: 357 Magnum, 9mm, or 45 ACP; and be done with it! 

(After you've, 'eaten the meal' is NOT the right time to argue about the price on the menu.)


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## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

Thanks again,

I found another shop that does exactly what I suggested AND will rent you any brand new gun for $45 and apply that towards to purchase that day.

I'll post back later as I'm on my way now.

@AdamSmith. Thanks for the advise, I'm a bit older student and have not shot myself yet  I am wary of the modern firearms though and have shied away from Glocks for this reason. The .40's I shot yesterday were indeed more of a surprise, seem to pack more of a punch than the .45's I shot years back but those were probably full size Colts.

Dignan


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Dignan said:


> Thanks again,
> 
> I found another shop that does exactly what I suggested AND will rent you any brand new gun for $45 and apply that towards to purchase that day.
> 
> ...


Dignan, in that case it sounds like you fit in better with the "Old School" than with the "Glock crowd."

The very best handgun for you would be a CZ 75 of some sort.

CZ 75 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is that these guns are so popular they sell out fast, so they are hard to find.

Second best would be a SIG, if the price is not too high for you.

As for 9x19mm or 40 cal, I believe the 40's are way too overpowered for practical self defense. They are somewhere between a good practical choice like a 9mm or a 45 ACP and the extreme end of 38 special or 357 magnum.


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## Gruesome (Apr 30, 2013)

I will second the CZ 75 respect. I recently bought a CZ P01 which is a compact version of the 75. It is hard to find fault with the gun. And having gone through the .38/9mm/.40/.45 issue myself in the last year, I can say that maybe .40 is best saved for later. 9mm is popular for a reason. Your mileage may vary, but I dove into the deep end and and bought a .40 first and I wish I had been more cautious. I just bought that CZ P01 in 9mm and I adore it.

You are doing the right thing by renting. You will really only learn what you need to know about the gun when you fire it.


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## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

Shot and loved the Ruger SR9. Bought it. 

The Sig was quite tempting but I may or may not pursue shooting on such a serious level. The sr9 seem to fit in between CC and Sig type range pistol. 

I think it'll work fine for me. Already impressed myself with accuracy .


Dignan


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Dignan said:


> Shot and loved the Ruger SR9. Bought it.
> 
> The Sig was quite tempting but I may or may not pursue shooting on such a serious level. The sr9 seem to fit in between CC and Sig type range pistol.
> 
> ...


Well, it is what we call a Glock knock-off. It is designed just like a Glock.

So be careful, study the working elements, and be careful that you don't accidentally shoot yourself with it.


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## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

AdamSmith said:


> Well, it is what we call a Glock knock-off. It is designed just like a Glock.
> 
> So be careful, study the working elements, and be careful that you don't accidentally shoot yourself with it.


Thanks Adam,

I liked the safeties on the SR9, seem to fit my style.

All kidding aside how often to careful serious shooters shoot themselves? In other words how often does a quality firearm discharge in such a fashion to make a trained shooter shoot himself or others? I'm not trained yet but will be embarking on such a path asap.

I'm gonna clean it and keep the ammo away for now, get used to having it and using it at the range. Not too concerned about home protection but will eventually keep it more in that fashion as I get more comfortable with its working.

See ya on the Ruger page!

Thanks,

Dignan


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Dignan said:


> Thanks Adam,
> 
> I liked the safeties on the SR9, seem to fit my style.
> 
> ...


Most of the unintentional discharges I am aware of in which the shooter shot themselves was when they were drawing from a holster. There is not a range anywhere near me anymore that allows the shooter to practice drawing from a holster. Occasionally I have heard of someone shooting their freehand. Not sure how they did that one.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Dignan said:


> ....... All kidding aside how often to (SIC) careful serious shooters shoot themselves? In other words how often does a quality firearm discharge in such a fashion to make a trained shooter shoot himself or others? I'm not trained yet but will be embarking on such a path asap. .......


Why do I have the feeling that I'm reading somebody's Glock forum this morning? The correct answer to your question is,

'*ALL OF THE TIME!*'

The day you take a gun for granted is the same day something bad is most likely to happen.

(1) Never assume that you're, 'better' than the gun.

(2) Never assume that the gun is too well made to hurt you.

(3) Never completely trust any mechanical firearm safety.

(4) Never attempt to catch a falling Glock or another, 'Glock-like' pistol.

Each of these assumptions can get you - or worse, someone else - seriously wounded. (Maybe permanently so!)


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## Dignan (Jan 17, 2014)

Glock Doctor said:


> Why do I have the feeling that I'm reading somebody's Glock forum this morning? The correct answer to your question is,
> 
> '*ALL OF THE TIME!*'
> 
> ...


I'll do some searching but are the any classic thread here about gun accidents ?

I recall an excellent article in Fine Woodworking that was a synopsis of shop accidents. All the accidents were user error. Generally working with dangerous tools while tired, rushed, distracted. Most of the responders mentioned they had a sense something was wrong and proceeded with bad results. I recall several where they set up tools improperly.
I learned a lot from that article and never had more than a splinter in 30 years.

I found a small range with a full time range master and will shoot there for now and take many courses. I have no plans to be a shoot from the hip type, I understand most of the military self inflicted wounds were holster related.

Thanks for the post,

Dignan


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Many years ago I was on a firing line, turned my back on the guy standing next to me, and got shot in the ankle when that fellow attempted to clear his pistol. (22 LR out of a short barrel and it knocked me right off my feet!)

You can google this topic. There are lots of reports about bad things that happen to good people with guns. I'd refer you to Glock Talk; but articles that describe safety issues and/or accidents with Glock pistols are routinely, 'scrubbed' after a period of weeks. (Even when I've kept the web addresses it's still impossible to retrieve threads that have been, 'archived'.)

Here's one of the photos I did manage to save, though:










Here's an interesting, 'insider report' that comes out every month on police-involved negligent (accidental) discharges. It shows some of the things that can go wrong - and that most people never even bother to think about - with both the general public, and those who travel among them while carrying loaded guns. (Many of these, 'gunmen' were, presumably, professionally trained!) 

Accidental Discharges - POLICE Magazine

A Google search will reveal many other shooting accident reports.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot -- literally. Gross photo -- you can even see the bone of the big toe.

Great reading though, GlockDoc, thanks.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Dignan said:


> I'll do some searching but are the any classic thread here about gun accidents ?
> 
> I recall an excellent article in Fine Woodworking that was a synopsis of shop accidents. All the accidents were user error. Generally working with dangerous tools while tired, rushed, distracted. Most of the responders mentioned they had a sense something was wrong and proceeded with bad results. I recall several where they set up tools improperly.
> I learned a lot from that article and never had more than a splinter in 30 years.
> ...


Dignan, you will be wise to attend several formal training classes by certified instructors for handgun training.

Many of us have undergone that, and some of us do so regularly. Regular training is a must to stay current in your skills.

The greatest danger is when new shooters fail to take any training.

The second greatest danger is when veteran shooters who once took training begin to assume they don't need re-training.

This includes proper use of holsters.

As for what is the #1 reason for shooting accidents? It is violation of rule #1 -- Never point a gun at anything (including yourself) that you do not intend to kill, no matter if the gun is loaded or not.

There are several additional variations of this rule -- Always treat any gun as if it is loaded, whether loaded or not -- and -- Always keep the muzzle of the gun pointed downrange at all times.

Shooters most often seem to shoot themselves (1) when they are trying to clear a jam; (2) when they are cleaning their gun; (3) when they think they have fired the last round, but there is still one more live round in the chamber; or (4) when someone else gets their hands on their gun. So be very careful about those particular situations.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Use of holsters is a completely separately skill set for handgun shooters. This needs to be professionally taught as well as re-trained regularly.

Handguns are typically carried in a holster of some kind. A holster is safer than a pocket or a belt-carry alone.

The holster allows you to put the handgun away for the moment, and have both your hands free, such as when you are patrolling an area, or when you are hunting.

It also allows you to keep a handgun on your person safely while you are not immediately using it.

So, having said that, holsters are GOOD.

You should always mount your holster on your person WITHOUT a gun in it.

Once the holster is adjusted and fits properly, THEN you can properly put the gun into it.

BEFORE you put a gun into a holster, you must ensure some type of safety feature on the gun has been actively and properly set.

Actively setting a safety means doing something specifically to the gun so that it cannot fire while it is in the holster. A passive safety system alone is NOT sufficient.

There are several choices. One choice is to make sure the chamber is empty, even though the magazine (of a pistol) or the other chambers (of a revolver) are loaded. When the chamber is empty while the gun is loaded, this is called Condition #3. This is the appropriate condition for a novice shooter using a holster, who must then chamber a round before being able to shoot the gun. Condition #3 is NOT a great ready position for self defense however, because it requires two hands in the case of a pistol (semi-auto handgun) to ready and fire the gun. The military has always loved it, and it is a common military configuration for non-combat holstered use of a pistol.

Another alternative is to chamber a round, but put the hammer all the way down on the live round. You need to check the manufacturing spec's of your handgun to make sure it has a safety spring on the firing pin first, however. If it does not, then this would be an unsafe carrying position. This position is called Condition #2. It is my favorite ready position, because my 45 ACP does have a safety spring manufactured into it. The Germans first invented this ready position with their Luger pistols in double action, so that a Luger could be drawn and fired with one hand, a major advantage over the 1911A1.

Condition #1 is yet another safety position, first mentioned in the US Army training manuals for the 1911A1, which I am reluctant to discuss, but which the 1911A1 affectionados/aficionados love. There is current controversy and debate as to whether Condition #1 was originally intended only for a brief interval or as a permanent carry condition. For many, if not most, it has evolved into a permanent carry condition, which I disagree with personally. Somebody from the 1911A1 camp will certainly flame me now and talk about my mother. I have even had a babe from the 1911A1 camp who is young enough to be my granddaughter tell me I don't know what I am doing or talking about -- amusing little babe. Never seen that kind of arrogance in a girl or young lady before.

Condition #0 is defined as when the pistol is loaded and chambered, the hammer is back all the way, the safeties are all OFF, and the gun is ready to shoot whenever you are. You should never, never return a gun to a holster in this condition, because it could easily lead to an accidental discharge and shooting yourself in the foot. If holster issues have cause an accidental discharge, this is probably the reason why. Or else it could be due to the newfangled Glocks.

With the Glocks and the Glock copycats (called Glock knock-offs), you DO NOT have an external hammer to work with. So that is a disadvantage of a Glock in one major respect. I don't want to get into a Glock debate here. I just want to point out the lack of an external hammer on this design of gun.

There are even revolvers that do not have external hammers, which lends itself to the same disadvantage in them -- not having control over the position of the hammer with your eyes and thumb.

So with a Glock or copycat, you need to be extra careful NOT to shoot yourself.

All this needs to be demonstrated, taught, and drilled. Certified instructors are great at teaching all this.

So you will need this kind of training, quickly.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Glock Doctor said:


> Many years ago I was on a firing line, turned my back on the guy standing next to me, and got shot in the ankle when that fellow attempted to clear his pistol. (22 LR out of a short barrel and it knocked me right off my feet!)
> 
> You can google this topic. There are lots of reports about bad things that happen to good people with guns. I'd refer you to Glock Talk; but articles that describe safety issues and/or accidents with Glock pistols are routinely, 'scrubbed' after a period of weeks. (Even when I've kept the web addresses it's still impossible to retrieve threads that have been, 'archived'.)
> 
> ...


When I was in the military and going thru basic training, we marched approx. 8 miles to the M-16 range. We spent the better part of he day there, and at the end of the day, we had an 8 mile march back to post.

About an hour or so before we were to march back, some guy shot himself in the foot. Initially, it was thought to have been an accidental discharge. The next day, we found out that he had shot himself in the foot intentionally. He didn't want to have to march back to camp.

And of course, he was given a discharge from the Army.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

A word about working out of a holster: Until a shooter has learned how to keep his trigger finger ABSOLUTELY, 'ARROW STRAIGHT' whenever he makes a grab for a holstered pistol, AND is, also, able to keep his trigger finger absolutely, 'arrow straight' until AFTER the muzzle passes the 45 degree, 'low ready' position, he should NOT attempt to draw any loaded pistol from any holster.

I'm still able to draw and make an aimed shot in .43/.45 second out of an exposed, open-topped, Kydex, Blade-Tech holster. This is not a skill that can be easily learned overnight. It takes a lot of EMPTY GUN PRACTICE with the, 'right' holster before someone becomes competent. (Personally, I think this sort of empty gun practice is every bit as important as routine dry-fire practice.)

It continues to surprise me that skillful holster work is one of the most - if not thee most - UNDISCUSSED firearm safety topics on today's internet gun forums. Exactly, 'Why' I do not know? (Many a time I've walked up to somebody's handgun firing line, and thought to myself, '_Geeze, I sure hope all of these shooters know what they're doing!_' So far so good, though!)


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

"You can google this topic. There are lots of reports about bad things that happen to good people with guns. I'd refer you to Glock Talk; but articles that describe safety issues and/or accidents with Glock pistols are routinely, 'scrubbed' after a period of weeks. (Even when I've kept the web addresses it's still impossible to retrieve threads that have been, 'archived'.)"

If that isn't the truth,Glock is very protective of their image so people don't discover their shortcomings until after the sale.My old computer had an official letterhead complaint from a Northern PD or SO that was getting away from Glock,and Glock threatened a lawsuit if they didn't take it off the net.I tried to find it a few days after my computer crashed and it was nowhere to be found anywhere,hmm.

Never be complacent around a gun,I don't care if it has 10 safeties.The 4 rules of gun safety are there for a reason and if you abide by them the chances of an ND are reduced to damn near nill.I say not eliminated because of the "safe action" design,reholstering can boot one down your leg even with no finger on the trigger.Even highly trained and proficient pistolero's have shot themselves from complacency/poor equipment (meaning the Serpa holster).

I've had one ND (technically 2 but that one hit the target from a premature trigger press in a match) and it scared the poo out of me.Repetition and complacency were the cause and all it did was poke a hole in the sheetrock at the base of a block wall.


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