# Diminishing Returns on 1911



## Danny (May 25, 2011)

I ran across the Cabot site, and saw that they had several 1911's that sold for $7K +, as do some Wilson's. What are you getting for that much $$$, besides a severe case of sticker shock?

If you apply the Law of Diminishing Returns to the 1911, at what price point, within $500 +/-, does this begin? A little more detail here: for the average, non-competitive shooter, who appreciates the 1911 as a combat/SD gun, how much do you have to spend, to get a RELIABLE, accurate, legit gun that will last a lifetime?



My mostly 'un-educated' guess is about $2000-2500


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Your guess is right. Once you're in the category of a high-quality 1911 (assuming forged, not MIM parts), after that, you're getting frills, useless design changes & maybe exotic finishes.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

About $1500 to $2k.

I have a Nighthawk that cost me $3200, but I had it built from scratch just the way I wanted it. 

It was worth it to me as there were very specific things I wanted and not one 1911 out there was equipped that way.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

That depends on you. I have a good selection of 1911's and 1911a1's with values from$400.00 to beyond what most customs cost. I personally carry a RIA daily that I spent 400 on then made a couple of changes to just to suit me. It was reliable from the box. You have to find the one you like best and that will be your Ideal cost VS. return.


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## bbrovold (Oct 4, 2015)

After the $1k mark it is all about vanity and self indulgence unless you are an exceptional shooter which most are not. I would suspect that Cabot guns get cased as in "glass" and are show pieces.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

This is a point I've been trying to make about 1911s and ARs. I'm all about functionality and I think after about $1000-$1200 on either 1911 or maybe an AR you've got most of the game in your hand. 

After that you're getting stuff that MIGHT be better but won't make any significant difference in functionality or durability. I saw this in sailboat racing.. I guy would spend hundreds on special ropes thinking that would make him faster. The new technology ropes might last 5 years longer but they wouldn't make the boat faster. 

There's scads of stuff you can put into your AR that Uncle Sam doesn't seem to think is needed and he pushes his AR's pretty damn hard. (Roller pins?)

For low end 1911's, the Ruger is a very good buy. But there's others around the same price that are good too.

For the $1200 limit, I like the S&W E series. The places they spent their money on the gun represent real value in functionality I can use NOW, not 10,000 rounds from now. After owning 4 other brands, I carry a SW 1911SC as my daily carry, unmodified. IHMO: the stuff that gets put into a 1911 after that might make the group 1/2 in smaller but now you're up to $2K. The difference buys a lot of practice ammo. After that I think the 'improvements' are just things to make your junk look bigger. 

I'd bet if you fire 1K round through my E vs. a $3 anybody the only thing you'll see is maybe a smaller group. I think the value of a 1911 is in the design, not in how fancy you can build it.


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## Freethought (Jan 10, 2016)

Spike12 said:


> This is a point I've been trying to make about 1911s and ARs. I'm all about functionality and I think after about $1000-$1200 on either 1911 or maybe an AR you've got most of the game in your hand.
> 
> After that you're getting stuff that MIGHT be better but won't make any significant difference in functionality or durability. I saw this in sailboat racing.. I guy would spend hundreds on special ropes thinking that would make him faster. The new technology ropes might last 5 years longer but they wouldn't make the boat faster.
> 
> ...


 I agree with the majority of the above , that said , the difference between a 600 dollar AR and a 1600 dollar AR is eons. The differences aren't quite as great with 1911s but are still quite discernible. At this point I still possess 4 that would be considered " high end" , 2 from Ed Brown , 2 from Les Baer. Are they better than the Springfield in my safe , yes , better than the SIG......maybe not so much.

When you get to high end firearms a purchase is driven by *want* not by need. As an aside I agree as regards Ruger's offerings within the 1911 market , they may well be the best deal for the dollar spent in said market and are a highly usable and functional unit.

1911s in todays world are more of an "enthusiasts" sidearm , they aren't everyones cup of tea. But the fact is that they are to a certain degree the " small block Chevy" of sidearms i.e............what do you want it to do? In the general sense they have the potential to be built to fit the task that the user defines , from Pin Gun to defensive sidearm.

Do I still occasionally carry a 1911 nowadays , certainly , but then I also occasionally carry one of the pre-lock Smith revolvers that I " collect" and have an admitted almost fetish for. For everyday social work/carry though it's in general a P series Sig , either a P220 or a P229.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

As usual, great info here, much appreciated!


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## ParkerBoy (Feb 23, 2015)

The RIGHT price to pay for a 1911 is whatever makes you happy with the gun. Plain Jane RIA guns have a lot of enthusiasts virtually everywhere you look for info and opinions on 1911s. And the guys who love their high end guns will tell you why their choice is the greatest gun made. And everybody is right. I spent less than $1000 for my 1911(not a Rock) and I'm perfectly happy with it. I'm not in any position to throw stones at the guys who like the higher end guns.......my favorite SXS grouse gun was made in LONDON. We all have our vices.


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## buckhorn_cortez (Feb 16, 2014)

1911's are machines. If they're built correctly, they have to run reliably no matter what the price may be. To a certain price point (about $1200 - $2000) you buy a "better" gun because of bar stock parts versus cast or MIM, more hand fitting and better finishing.

After that ($2K and up) what you're buying are features. Flattened, serrated slide top, carry cuts, specific sights, recessed slide stop, specific finish, etc. In some cases (Les Baer), you can spend extra money for a 1.5-inch guarantee at 50 yards.

Do you need any of that for a reliable gun? No. Will the special features help you shoot better? In some instances they might - but, that's really an individual choice. Some features go beyond cosmetics and may make the gun easier for you to use.

As an example, I have a cataract developing in my left eye. I find glare difficult to deal with under some conditions. The gun I have with a flattened, serrated slide top, the rear of the slide checkered, and a black finish is far easier for me to sight under some lighting conditions. Is it worth the money for those features? For me, it is as it helps me sight the gun faster and more accurately.

Would the cost for those features be beneficial for everybody? Probably not - but, that's the thing with a 1911, it can be whatever you want it to be if you have the money to buy the features you find useful.

If you know what you want in a 1911, then buy the one you want. If you don't - I'd suggest spending under $1,000 and shoot it for a while and you will find out what you like and don't like about the gun. Then, the next one you buy you'll start looking for specific features as you'll have a better idea on what would make the gun better for you.

As for the Cabot gun - their claim to fame is that the parts are so accurately made, that they can interchange any part with any gun and it will be accurate and reliable. Part of the allure is the cachet of owning a high dollar, low production, "exclusive" gun. 

Not much different than owning a Ferrari, Patek Philippe watch, etc.


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

I agree with those who say it is personal--it is 

some ar ehappy with toyotas, som eneed BMW or mrcedes some like trucks

same with 1911s some like the loose fitting gi style(less expensive too). Some (like me) want tight slide to frame fits. and others like the tight guns with lots of options

our first was a DW heritage--still have it still love it. Went over the edge and bought a Wilson(swore I would never spend that much-- never swear to anything I have learned) then another, then a NHC ,then EB, finally a LB. Love them all the same. The semi customs are heavier due to the material used . They all shoot great
they are fun to use .

My limit is 3 grand-- honestly--I swear!!!LOL no really 3 grand wa s it!


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

bbrovold said:


> After the $1k mark it is all about vanity and self indulgence unless you are an exceptional shooter which most are not. I would suspect that Cabot guns get cased as in "glass" and are show pieces.


really high quality 1911s make us look like exceptional shooters--that is one of their appealing points


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

boatdoc173 said:


> really high quality 1911s make us look like exceptional shooters--that is one of their appealing points


So true!! The first time I shot a Kimber 45, which was about 2 months ago, it was the single most eye-opening experience I'd had with a gun! I'm not a terrible shot with a pistol, but I'm not great either, but that Kimber Custom II, made me feel like a marksman...it was so cool. My new Sig P-226, being a 'heavy' gun (9mm), gives me a very similar shooting experience, although I need to work on my basic shooting skills. A Sig 1911 is my next gun, hell, my wife even liked it (the Kimber)...said the recoil was so mild. She has a very strong grip, so that helps some.
We only shot one box through the Kimber, but became instant fans of the 1911!


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Sorry boys, but I have to say that there is nothing more satisfying than using skill to outshoot a guy with a high dollar, big name gun. I've done it a number of times and I will never grow tired of it. Must be some sort of character flaw that I am cursed with.

GW


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Do Cabot's come with gold plated ammunition???


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

bbrovold said:


> After the $1k mark it is all about vanity and self indulgence unless you are an exceptional shooter which most are not.


I disagree with this - whole heatedly... Especially the terminology you use there.

But, ya know what... I used to believe the same thing that some here say - that these high end 1911s are just a waste of money... How could spending $2k be worth it, and why not buy two $1k 1911s instead... Or, why spend $3k on a single 1911 when you can buy SEVERAL guns for that price... But, I slowly worked my way up the 1911 food chain (I have owned ten different ones to date). I lusted after the higher end models for years - and I finally took the plunge one day...

I have even previously found old posts FROM ME on other forums - stating essentially the same thing (commenting on the excess of money for the product)...

But, now that I have owned 3 semi custom/custom 1911s in the past, I have no interest in standard production 1911s anymore for the most part - except for the Dan Wesson Valor line (nicest "standard production" 1911 out there IMHO - and I like it more than some of the semi customs I have previously owned)...

The biggest issue is that once you have owned one of these higher end 1911s, you just won't be satisfied with any Standard production 1911. Just picking them up and feeling how the moving parts work, how the trigger breaks, etc.. You CAN tell and feel the difference. On any normal production 1911 except the Dan Wesson line, I usually find that the trigger itself rattles and doesn't fit well, and the trigger leaves a lot to be desired...

The price isn't for everyone. But, there IS a difference. When I pick up a cheaper model 1911 now and then, and I handle it, I can many "flaws" that bug me... And when I say flaws, I can tell that the quality isn't just the same. But, you don't necessarily feel the difference just by shooting 1 mag through someone else's 1911. I have shot many higher end 1911s over the year - when people on the range let me shoot a few rounds thru their gun.

*Some people won't ever "get it." And, I can honestly say that until you actually own one, you may never "get it." * And, no amount of trying to explain it will fix that for some people. I'm not trying to be a gun snob or anything - in stating that I don't like standard production 1911s anymore. But the fit and finish and attention to detail is much greater on the higher end 1911s. And while I have shot many 1911s over the years that are accurate, I can say that without a doubt, the two Ed Browns and the Springfield Custom Shop 1911 I previously owned were the most accurate 1911's I have ever shot.

Of course, despite my interest in high end 1911s - what is my favorite platform? The Beretta 92 platform. So, I'm not an exclusive 1911 guy.


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## buckhorn_cortez (Feb 16, 2014)

> Sorry boys, but I have to say that there is nothing more satisfying than using skill to outshoot a guy with a high dollar, big name gun. I've done it a number of times and I will never grow tired of it. Must be some sort of character flaw that I am cursed with.


That proves nothing. You're purposely conflating the cost of the gun with the ability of the shooter. You know and I know it doesn't work like that - so, you've done exactly ZERO in making any kind of a point.

Part of the fun of shooting is using the gun itself. When you have a 1911 with the features you want, it can enhance the enjoyment of shooting - and that has NOTHING to do with "outshooting" someone else.

Other people buy expensive 1911's for pride of ownership. I understand the reason, I just don't relate to it. I'm not one of those people who rush to post on an Internet gun forum, "Just ordered my new xxxx!!!!!" Or, "Woohoo!!!...Finally got my new xxxx!!!"

You can always tell how excited they are by counting the number of exclamation points in the post...

I buy my guns for other reasons - mainly how they work and the user features.

I never expect the gun will magically make me a better shooter - it will only enhance the experience of shooting.

I will take it for granted that you can understand the difference between thinking you can buy better shooting skills and enhancing the shooting experience.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

People who know guns and appreciate the finer points will usually buy the best example they can afford. I'm a 'function type,' personally, and am satisfied with a decent looking pistol that shoots to POA and has a nice trigger. My best pistol cost me about $800 OTD, and I'm pleased with it. I can think of several modifications that would make me like it even more, and I may spend the money some day for those improvements. For those who can justify more expensive guns, I say go for it. It's about personal satisfaction, and if you can spend whatever you want to get that, you should, by all means.


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## 1911crazy (Jul 16, 2015)

My cheapest new 1911a1 when they were first offered was the new Kahr auto ordnance army ww2 clone for $389. Using wolf ball ammo. It's been flawless since 2004. It's the first brand new 1911 that was flawless right out of the box. I started out as a kid with a p&j sandwhich. Then it was ham & cheese, cold cuts. I was happy I didn't need steak.
Today give me an affordable 1911 that shoots I'm happy.

I feel any brand new 1911a1 at any price should run ball ammo with no FTF. The problems start when we try running JHP bullets when the 1911a1 isn't made for it by the manufacturer. Let's face it there using the orginal 1911 prints. If there just starting manufacturing a 1911a1. Today not every new 1911 feeds JHP bullets. This is were the 1911 gets a bad rap. Or they load a round in the chamber by hand then slam the slide over that round and detune the extractor and the stove pipes begin. Then the 1911's are no good. The new 1911a1's should come with a instruction sheet explaining the do's and dont's. The biggest problems I see with the 1911a1 is detuned/unspring extractors. 

I think the best quality, most bang for our buck new 1911a1 price range is between $400/$600 today for a no frills, no bells, plain Jane 1911. I like my women plain too no surprises in the morning.


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

bbrovold said:


> After the $1k mark it is all about vanity and self indulgence unless you are an exceptional shooter which most are not. I would suspect that Cabot guns get cased as in "glass" and are show pieces.


Call me vane and self-indulgent! I love my 1911s - all 24 of them.


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## casurvivor (Jan 23, 2015)

all my hand guns including 1911s are under $1000.00 or close to it.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Well, after lots of looking, I decided on the Sig 1911 Fastback.









It's my first one, so I hope I made a good choice. I also looked hard at the SA TRP, which was very nice, but it was $1582, a little more than I could afford at the time. Also, the front checkering/knurling on the grip was very aggressive, and although I lift weights, and work with my hands, I found it to be 'over-done' for everyday shooting. If you were wearing gloves, it would be perfect, but I have no reason to wear them.
Anyway, I traded a Beretta PX4 Storm 4" .40, and an old Taurus 38 snub nose, so I have $452 left to pay on the 1911 which I put in layaway. I'm really looking forward to shooting it. I had just bought a P-226, and I already had a Sig M400, so my Sig family is growing!!


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

casurvivor said:


> all my hand guns including 1911s are under $1000.00 or close to it.


Well, mine are not. I even have two Berettas that were more than $1k (Wilson Brigadier Tactical and M9A3). Guess I am vain and self indulgent too...


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## DLYskes1976 (Sep 15, 2015)

i'd say once you get over 1500$ for a handgun.... then it's just for show.... 

my sig 1911 cost me 1100$ and runs like a champ... i had thought about buying something like a RIA or CIA 1911 and building it up with add on's.... but when i started to think about the individual cost of everything like grips, sights and stuff i was basically at the cost of my Sig...


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## Donn (Jul 26, 2013)

Some say You get what you pay for. Others insist their RIA or Norinco 1911 runs like the Energizer Bunny and always has. Meanwhile, James Yeager says he's never had a student in one of his classes who's 1911 didn't malfunction, regardless of name on the slide or price. Me? If I had the $$$, I'd already have a Wilson. Till then, I'll have to muddle thru with my Colt Series 70 MkIV.


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## fauxpa46 (Mar 12, 2016)

I am on the verge of purchasing my first 1911. The history (mystique?) of this gun draws me to it. As I've stated in other posts/forums, I almost quit searching, simply because of all the brands/models available - It is simply too confusing. So, instead of looking at ALL of them, I began looking at only those within the price parameters that I would spend. That narrowed the field considerably, but not as much as one would think. Don't want the cheapest, but certainly don't need, nor am I worthy of the most expensive. I'll never, ever shoot enough, or well enough to warrant ANY $2000-$4000 gun. That's certainly no dispersion on anyone who owns them, however.

ALL 1911s are good, few are bad, and many are awe-inspiring. I just want one I can occasionally carry, sit on my nightstand, and take to the range to get rid of ammunition for anywhere between $600 and $800. Most of the owners of 1911s in this price range LOVE their gun(s); "It's the best; nothing like it anywhere; no failures; had it for almost 60 years now, and my daddy before me". I used to be a painter. Every painter I ever met said the paint they use is the best on the market; every one.


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

I enjoy every one of the 24 1911's I own.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

BigCityChief said:


> I enjoy every one of the 24 1911's I own.


Damn! You got a lot of 1911's! :smt033


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

berettatoter said:


> Damn! You got a lot of 1911's! :smt033


25 as of today - just bought a Springfield Armory Range Officer Compact.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

BigCityChief said:


> 25 as of today - just bought a Springfield Armory Range Officer Compact.


You sir, are most certainly a steely-eyed missile man! :smt1099


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