# Is SIG losing it?



## shootingftw (Jul 9, 2009)

I have been a long time Sig Sauer fan and owner of a P229 in .357SIG /.40 S&W. Obviously these guns are held in a very high light. If you want a reliable pistol look no further than Sig, Glock, or H&K. (Okay maybe Beretta's and some 1911's as well). 

Anyway, I have a friend that works in law enforcement, his office was issued w/ Sig's, I do not know which models but one of the popular ones (228/229/220). Apparently a few of them had catastrophic failures, and of course if you know of people having brand new guns like yours that have had failures you will be less than eager to have your life depend on that model.

Than today I was checking out the new P238 when I noticed on Sig's website the recall orders for potentially faulty safety switches. 

Add to that the VERY finicky nature of the previous Sig Trailsides and now Mosquitos...what's going on here???
Is my favorite handgun company building guns in China or something? 

I sure am glad I have a 229 from what was still their glory years (mid-late 90's). 

This is not a bash, I just really want to know your opinions.


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## SaltyDog (Jan 1, 2009)

I have a P229 less than one year old and a P239 less than 3 months old and I'm completely satisfied with their performance.

Curious as to what the catastrophic failures were? I googled it and no mention anywhere of a problem with any Sig - as a matter of fact most police links highly recommend it! 

My son prefers the Glock to the Sig as a combat weapon but that is because of it's durability. Drop it in the mud, full of sand, 120 degrees outside and it still fires. He prefers the Sig for a patrol carry weapon though and hates the Berretta.

The Mosquito is a .22 - everyone has problems with .22's - usually it's the ammo they feed it. The P238 had a recall after Sig identified a problem with the safety - they called them back and are repairing the weapons. Hell even Honda and Toyota have recalls.

Don't count them out so quick shootingftw:smt023


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

I have read about some disatisfaction with customer support and quality issues on other forums. My personal suspicion is that Sig introduced a lot of new models and variations on old favorites in the last couple of years and it is certainly plausible that QA/QC didn't track at the same frantic pace with all the new releases. Very un-sig like given their previous impressive track record for quality and support. Thus the disatisfaction from those very loyal to the brand and those who procure in volume to fill contracts such as law enforcement. Thier new .380 has been problematic and they pulled some bait and switch routine on aluminum grips for it that has the Sig faithful livid. I would think that those who buy a new Sig and it proves problem free out of the box will be just fine over the long run. From what I am reading, not personal experience, it does appear that it is more of a risk plunking down 700 to 800 on a new sig than it has been before. I'm not a huge fan of accessory rails and upswept arbitrary beaver tails so my tastes would trend towards the older P series models anyway. Tried and true. I have not had any problems with a new to me recent production P220 and a brand new P232 so YMMV.


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

Yeah, Sig quality has declined. I just bought a new P220 Elite Stainless and it has a cutgroove in the frame's rail underneath above the decocker. Not happy! I've emailed SIG the pics to see what they say about it.

We'll see...:smt076

---


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

Wow Ka-chow I'll bet you were not happy. Pretty obvious flaw that should not have left the factory like that. Hope they make it right for you.


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

I emailed sig pics...they email back and said this is normal and made that way by design.

I then called to speak with them and was told that the gunsmiths verified that this is in fact normal.

I'm not buying it! I'm done with SIG! :smt076

They won't do anything about it so I'm stuck. It doesn't seem like it will affect function. Think 2X when buying a SIG these days!


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

That is a surprising response. Gouge out of the underside of the frame rail is normal and acceptable? I have 3 at home and will check and see if any of them have such a mark but I doubt it. If you bought it from a dealer you might take it in to them, show them the issue and see if they will make it right or offer you a credit and/or trade. Most shops have you sign a "we are not responsible for anything related to warranty paper" but in my mind some one in the chain of events should have caught and questioned this including an inbound inventory inspection at the gun shop. Those that care about customer satisfaction and future business will at least try and help and those that only focus on the short sale won't. May be worth a try. My worry would be the slide could eventually bind up on that "normal" gouge but I'm no expert.


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## jc27310 (Dec 14, 2008)

I may not know much about guns, but I know a little about manufacturing. That looks like a tool mark to me....
When the slides are cut, I would guess they use a precision grinding tool (cnc machine) to cut the channel. That looks like the wheel to me.
... or I could be totally wrong!
-jc


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## jc27310 (Dec 14, 2008)

*really? what function*



ka-chow said:


> I emailed sig pics...they email back and said this is normal and made that way by design.
> 
> I then called to speak with them and was told that the gunsmiths verified that this is in fact normal.
> 
> ...


Huh...
what function does it serve?
additional relief when sliding onto the frame?
:?:

looking at it a little more, it doesn't look accidental, I'd be interested if anyone else has the same marks on theirs...


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## MauiWowie22 (Jun 19, 2009)

I will only buy older Sigs....
I too am not satisfied with the new products but the old Sigs I MUST have all of them!!!


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

I couldn't take it anymore. I called SIG again about the groove issue and sent another email to another SIG guy. He said he'd check with SIG gunsmiths again about it. I got a follow-up email within an hour saying...

verbatim:

"THE EMAIL FROM RAY THIS MORNING WAS CUT AND PASTED FROM THE GUNSMITHS EMAIL. I HAVE THE 220 STAINLESS ON MY DESK WHICH WAS THE PREDECESSOR TO THE 220 STAINLESS ELITE AND IT HAS THE SAME GROOVE IN THE FRAME RAIL ON THE LEFT SIDE ABOVE THE DECOCKER. WE DON'T HAVE A CAMERA WITH A HIGH ENOUGH RESOLUTION TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A PICTURE OF THE AREA."

So there's nothiing else to do but believe them...Stange they didn't have a camera to take a shot...my camera is nothing special bought over 7 years ago. (it has a close-up function--but what camera doesn't?)

So either they are BSing me..or ..Some SIGs are made on a machine that does this..or..all SIG P220s have this.
I can't keep calling (I've called 3 times about it/ and sent 2 different guys the pics) I'll have to take their word for it. 

I will say this...The slide goes on and off perfectly with no bindin or hang-up. 

Just curious...does ANYBODY OUT THERE HAVE A SIG P220 ELITE STAINLESS with this? PICS please.

Thanks guys,

ka-chow


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Have you tried looking at some other 220's to look for this mark?


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

DevilsJohnson said:


> Have you tried looking at some other 220's to look for this mark?


Well, basically I'm hoping (maybe praying) that someone can offer their insight that owns or saw this on a 
P220 Elite stainless. I really don't have the time to call around and then drive to a gun shop to check. Some shop owners aren't too happy to see someone strip a gun apart either.

Anyone? anyone out there?


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## jc27310 (Dec 14, 2008)

is it me, or can you make out the slide notch on this photo?
-jc


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## Yellojacket (Jan 27, 2009)

You got me curious about mine now. I have a p220 elite carry (non stainless) and I don't see a groove that severe on my slide rail.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

ka-chow said:


> Well, basically I'm hoping (maybe praying) that someone can offer their insight that owns or saw this on a
> P220 Elite stainless. I really don't have the time to call around and then drive to a gun shop to check. Some shop owners aren't too happy to see someone strip a gun apart either.
> 
> Anyone? anyone out there?


Well, I think there are a couple here with the same if not similar weapons. What you will need is as many examples as you can get. From Elite Stainless weapons and other models. I have two Sigs (229 & 226) and don't see it on either of them. The guy I shoot with most has an older 220 I'm trying to get hold of him to see if he can snap me a pic of his.

I think the best examples will be from those that have the same make/model as yours. Armed with that info and pics from other like weapons you might have a foothold in dealing with the company.

My friend is a tool & die guy(He also has the 220 I mentioned) . I'm also asking him about the groove. I would like to be able o to show him the pic of yours if it's OK with you for me to make a copy. I don't liek doing things like that without asking. I make digital art that people just love to take an use for commercial reasons and leave me out of the loop. So I like ot show everyone the same respect:smt023


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

And dang jc! that's H U G E I had my video out run to me 46" lcd TV when I first posted....


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

DevilsJohnson said:


> Well, I think there are a couple here with the same if not similar weapons. What you will need is as many examples as you can get. From Elite Stainless weapons and other models. I have two Sigs (229 & 226) and don't see it on either of them. The guy I shoot with most has an older 220 I'm trying to get hold of him to see if he can snap me a pic of his.
> 
> I think the best examples will be from those that have the same make/model as yours. Armed with that info and pics from other like weapons you might have a foothold in dealing with the company.
> 
> My friend is a tool & die guy(He also has the 220 I mentioned) . I'm also asking him about the groove. I would like to be able o to show him the pic of yours if it's OK with you for me to make a copy. I don't liek doing things like that without asking. I make digital art that people just love to take an use for commercial reasons and leave me out of the loop. So I like ot show everyone the same respect:smt023


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No problem...send it to whomever you like. I'll be happy to get to the bottom of this once and for all.
Anybody else? I still have yet to see pics of the P220 Elite STAINLESS in question.


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

Yellojacket said:


> You got me curious about mine now. I have a p220 elite carry (non stainless) and I don't see a groove that severe on my slide rail.


---
Yellojacket...I looked at your pics very carefully and I swear I see the cut groove on the lower pic you took! 
Is that a groove that your fingernail could feel and travel through? Please let me know! It looks like you've got the groove cut in question! Do you?!


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

I may have the answer at last!!!

I have this issue posted on sigforum.com

2 members have stated they have identical marks/grooves in their Sig P220 Elite Stainless! --The same as mine!

And as mentioned before, I swear I see the groove on Yellojacket's lower pic on his Blued P220! Waiting to get confirmation on that. I drew a red frame box where I beleive I see Yellojacket's cut groove on his P220.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Well, I went to looking at my two again and when I run my thumbnail down that part of the rail you can feel a change in the channel. I can't really see it being mine are not stainless but you can feel a little difference in that part of the slide rail. Also if you run your finger down the outside edge of that rail you will feel where it goes in a little in that same spot. It's the same on my 229 and my 226. And both my Sigs are made in the 90's 

Take your thumb and fore finger and run them down both rails at the same time on that outside edge. you can feel where it moves in a little in the same spot you are showing that groove.


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## MT Wallet (Aug 27, 2009)

Hello everyone please allow me to introduce myself!

I am new here, and I saw this thread. My SIG P229R was bought new last month and has only about 220 rounds through it (9mm) and I also have that groove or scratches on the rail, only it's on the other side of the gun, opposite the de-cocking lever, etc.

I can see where the black nitron finish has been worn away and I can see shiny metal underneath on the bottom of the frame rail.


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

I looked at mine last night (228, 232, 225) and did not see any gouging. Starting to sound like it might actually be a 220 thing given some of the other feedback and pics here. I agree that looks like a tool mark left by a wheel and for the life of me studying the design cannot imagine a practical intentional purpose for it but Sig knows how to make a good handgun and I do not. Looks suspicious to me and I think you were right to question it but if it's common and people are not having function or durability problems directly attributed to it then not much can be done I guess.


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

Tuefelhunden said:


> I looked at mine last night (228, 232, 225) and did not see any gouging. Starting to sound like it might actually be a 220 thing given some of the other feedback and pics here. I agree that looks like a tool mark left by a wheel and for the life of me studying the design cannot imagine a practical intentional purpose for it but Sig knows how to make a good handgun and I do not. Looks suspicious to me and I think you were right to question it but if it's common and people are not having function or durability problems directly attributed to it then not much can be done I guess.


--
Yeah, certainly seems odd..but it is apparently intentional. It was driving me nuts! But others have come forward and seen the same groove gouge on their P220s. Don't know what purpose it serves either. Makes no sense....SIG swears its on their P220s and is "normal and by design."

Anyone feel free to post more pics and discussion but I'm satified now.

Long live the Sig P220 (and the strange gouging groove..:smt023)


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

MT Wallet said:


> Hello everyone please allow me to introduce myself!
> 
> I am new here, and I saw this thread. My SIG P229R was bought new last month and has only about 220 rounds through it (9mm) and I also have that groove or scratches on the rail, only it's on the other side of the gun, opposite the de-cocking lever, etc.
> 
> I can see where the black nitron finish has been worn away and I can see shiny metal underneath on the bottom of the frame rail.


---
Welcome! Nice to have you aboard.

Try and grab a camera and take a pic of the groove gouge you see.--I'm sure others would be interested in seeing. Set camera to close-up and alternate with/without flash to see the best pic. Try natural sunlight like I did. This worked much better for me.


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## MT Wallet (Aug 27, 2009)

ka-chow said:


> ---
> Welcome! Nice to have you aboard.
> 
> Try and grab a camera and take a pic of the groove gouge you see.--I'm sure others would be interested in seeing. Set camera to close-up and alternate with/without flash to see the best pic. Try natural sunlight like I did. This worked much better for me.


 I just looked at my friend's .40 P229 and he has almost the exact same wear on the rails, except it's on both sides of the gun.

His gun is older than mine, and I think has seen way more rounds than mine.

It actually looks like normal wear and tear people. And according to my friend, the gun shoots just fine.

I'm not worried about it. :smt1099


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

Ka-chow-

I went out shooting with some buddies today, low and behold one of them had a p220. It was an older 2 tone model with nickel slide and fire controls. I pulled the slide off the frame... and there it was, the same machining mark that yours has. Exact same in shape and size!

Your biggest problem now in life, is that endless supply of .45!:smt023


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

YFZsandrider said:


> Ka-chow-
> 
> I went out shooting with some buddies today, low and behold one of them had a p220. It was an older 2 tone model with nickel slide and fire controls. I pulled the slide off the frame... and there it was, the same machining mark that yours has. Exact same in shape and size!
> 
> Your biggest problem now in life, is that endless supply of .45!:smt023


Hey, thanks again for checking! May the gouge live on!


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## Yellojacket (Jan 27, 2009)

Well I looked at mine again today with better lighting and guess what? It too DOES have that same groove in the rail as you do. I can't get a better pic of it with my camera but if you look closely it is there...


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## ka-chow (Aug 6, 2009)

Yellojacket said:


> Well I looked at mine again today with better lighting and guess what? It too DOES have that same groove in the rail as you do. I can't get a better pic of it with my camera but if you look closely it is there...


---
YeaH, I thought I saw the groove on your lower pic you took. Guess it's on blued AND stainless P220 models. Really strange.

I can't for the life of me figure out why...but...I guess, " if it ain't broken don't fix it!"

:mrgreen:


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## shootingftw (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't recall what the failure was and don't want to spread any mis-information. 

Well, good that those were machine marks and not blemishes...and that SIG wasn't BSing you on the matter too.

I guess it just won't be known for a while what SIG is really pumping out of their factories right now. I still have faith in their std models, but won't be buying any .22 from them in the near future unless I read plenty of positive reports.


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## oldphart (Oct 20, 2007)

The only Sig I've had trouble with is my new 232 and that may be because of the ammo available. I have not shot any American made full metal jacket ammo in the gun because none is available in my area. I don't think Sig is "losing it," although any manufacturing company suffers from expansion in the area of quality control, and Sig has been very busy for a few years.

All my Sigs, except the one mentioned above perform flawlessly. I've bought them all within the last 4 years. Excepting the 232 mentioned above, my most recent buy was the 229 Elite in .40. Beautiful piece.


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## oldphart (Oct 20, 2007)

MT Wallet said:


> I just looked at my friend's .40 P229 and he has almost the exact same wear on the rails, except it's on both sides of the gun.
> 
> His gun is older than mine, and I think has seen way more rounds than mine.
> 
> ...


Wear on the rails is normal and more pronounced, in my experience, in .357 Sig.


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## madderg (Sep 18, 2009)

I have been around guns all my working life. I am a NRA instructor for about 20 years now, and have worked in and around law enforcement all that time. I am also a machinist and have worked tool and die issues. For the last few years I have carried and shot a P226 in 357 Sig...many thousand rounds. I have just purchased a P220 Super Match and have spent range time with it just yesterday. In my opinion, you can find no better hand gun than Sig Sauer. Period. If you have one that has come out of the USA production factory look at the inside of the slide. You can study it and be very hard-pressed to find any machine marks or swerals. The fit to finish is as good as a custom built gun. They all are. The function and fire is such that they will eat anything and give a lifetime of superb accuracy. The trigger is one of a kind SWEET in this day and age of " lawyer triggers " Sig has had some problems, though mainly minor on some of their hand guns, as they are new offerings they may have a bug now and again. They will stand behind their products and make it right. Every manufacturer has the same problems. All in all I find them superb, and I stake my life on them. Good shooting, Gary.


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