# Target Ammo?



## almanor (Jun 15, 2013)

Was at the range the other day shooting the 45 auto. Another shooter asked what I used for target ammo and HD. I have been reloading the same load for all applications on the theory that if I need the gun for home defense, it should be the load I am used to. I shoot 200 gr. hp in 45 acp. I'm a fair shot with it, can put 7of 7 onto a torso target out to 50 yds. This is at a range, not under stress mind you, never been in that situation, hope never to be. I just like target shooting for fun. P.S. gun is a Ruger P-90 dc. I love the feel of it in my hand, much more so than other pistols I have shot.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

almanor said:


> ...I have been [using] the same load for all applications on the theory that if I need the gun for home defense, it should be the load I am used to...


Exactly!
Good thinking!


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## Overkill0084 (Nov 28, 2010)

Aside from what I can only imagine is a noteworthy additional cost, your theory is valid. Seems to me using 200 gr bulk plated RN or FMJ for plinking/practice (same charge) would make for noteworthy savings when compared to appropriate SD quality HPs. Save the top shelf HPs for social work. 
But hey, I'm a cheapskate. YMMV.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

What exactly is your loading,that will make a difference.My pet load is a 200swc at about 900fps,but I carry 230HP in the same neighborhood plus.POI is a bit off but..... If you load it pushing the 200 in the range it will perform you're cool,if it's downloaded to a target load you might as well save a few bucks with the H&G 68 copy SWC.


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## almanor (Jun 15, 2013)

I shoot the 200 hp with 5gr of titegroup. It shoots very flat trajectory and has manageable recoil. It will go through about 10" of phone books or through and through a 5 gal propane tank. I figure that is enough muzzle velocity to do the job. I'm new at this so may be wrong. Just like plinking at targets, that and P.O. ing my son who has been shooting for the 20 yrs, and can't hit what his old man can after a year with a pistol. (We won't mention long guns it's another story there)


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## HDKorp (Aug 10, 2013)

Guess I'm a cheapskate as well! HPs are too expensive comparatively for tearing through paper. Especially, if you go to the range aloften. Now, I do understand why you would do it though. Me...I would try to find comparable FMJs to use. Plus, if and when you were ever in a high stress situation and needed to act, I highly doubt you'd notice the difference.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

That's a decent load about middle of the road.My data says you should be pushing around 880fps +/-.I used to shoot target loads but I prefer to keep the recoil impulse close to what I carry while keeping it a little economical on the powder.I could change powders to even it out but 231 has been such a nice powder for me.


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## almanor (Jun 15, 2013)

One other thing, since I handload, it costs about $6.00 per 500 rds for hp over fmj or wadcutters. It is not worth it to save a penny a round and have to keep track of two sets of bullets and two powder measures. I too am cheap, tired of hearing about "wasting all that money on your guns" from the wife. Strangely it was her that got me the pistol in the first place, just didn't know how much I would like it VBG.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

When, 'your juices get flowing' I doubt you'll even know the gun is going off! If anything you probably won't even notice the recoil. (I never did!) Target focus is, after all, target focus. ;-)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Glock Doctor said:


> When, 'your juices get flowing' I doubt you'll even know the gun is going off! If anything you probably won't even notice the recoil. (I never did!) Target focus is, after all, target focus. ;-)


First of all, I have to admit that I've never had to shoot anyone, or shoot my way out of a fight.

However, I have shot through quite a lot of "practical" tactical pistol, rifle, and three-gun competitions in which the pressure has had to have been somewhat like that of a real gunfight, judging by the "almost-fights" I have experienced in real life.

My observation is that, "Yes, you do know that the gun is going off." That's because the gun moves against your hand, and your sights move off of your aiming-point. You are faced with a need for a tight grip, continuing trigger control, and very quick recovery, all of which are strongly influenced by perceived recoil.

Thus, it is-at least in my experience-an absolute necessity that you practice with ammunition that delivers the same effects to your hands, eyes, and reflexes, as does your chosen self-defense ammunition.

You don't have to use expensive bullets, or even the same powder, but the bullets and the powder with which you practice should present you with the same interior and exterior ballistics as does your chosen self-defense ammunition.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> First of all, I have to admit that I've never had to shoot anyone, or shoot my way out of a fight.
> 
> However, I have shot through quite a lot of "practical" tactical pistol, rifle, and three-gun competitions in which the pressure has had to have been somewhat like that of a real gunfight, judging by the "almost-fights" I have experienced in real life.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion! This said, and real world gunfighting aside, twice in my life I've walked off a firing line to receive a loud standing ovation for the marksmanship and speed I'd just demonstrated with a handgun. Both times the audience was made up of either New Jersey State Troopers, or other municipal Pennsylvania Law Enforcement Officers. (That's the truth, no internet B.S.)

When I think about these events I am convinced that the best shooting anyone will ever do in his life is always done on a proprioceptive, almost subconscious, level of performance. Said another way: Anytime I thought about performing well, I was usually mediocre; and whenever I simply did as I'd trained for months to do - and believed I could do well - my performance would well exceed even my own personal expectations for myself.

I, also, agree with Jeff Cooper's sage comment that a competent gunman should be able to pick up anybody's weapon, and perform well with it. In my opinion it's the conscious mind that preoccupies itself with necessities to, 'keep everything the same' as well as to eliminate as many variables as possible. Great, almost subconscious, performance doesn't occur on that level; AND, of this, I am absolutely positive.

In fact when I'm training someone in how to handle a pistol, one of the techniques I use is to start students out on, 'target grade' ammunition; and, then, towards the end of a training session and without saying anything to anyone, I'll start to fill the speedloaders with, 'full house' 357 Magnum ammunition. Know what! I've yet to see a warmed up and reasonably competent student ever go, 'off paper' when the switch is made to hot self-defense ammo. The groups will open up; and I'll get a few comments about the increased noise; BUT, so far, I've never had a student overwhelmed by a sudden switch from target to self-defense quality ammunition. (And, I've been doing this for more than a few years.)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Glock Doctor said:


> ...[T]he best shooting anyone will ever do in his life is always done on a proprioceptive, almost subconscious, level of performance...Anytime I thought about performing well, I was usually mediocre; and whenever I simply did as I'd trained for months to do - and believed I could do well - my performance would well exceed even my own personal expectations for myself.
> 
> I, also, agree with Jeff Cooper's sage comment that a competent gunman should be able to pick up anybody's weapon, and perform well with it...


Although you won't convince me to train my wife, or practice myself, with "softer" ammunition, certainly I have to concede to your points, as quoted above.
The first equates to my own personal experience; and in the second case, still from purely a match-shooting perspective, I also have to agree with both you and Colonel Cooper.

I think that the disagreement we've been having has its basis in my belief that most people don't get enough training, and don't practice enough.
In such cases, there is a strong need to "keep it real" during every minute of what little practice one gets. Thus my strong recommendation to practice with the ballistic equivalent of what you carry in real life.
I also think of the fabled PPC-course qualifiers who are taught to stop and collect their empties, and who then do the same practiced thing in a real street fight, losing their lives in the process.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve ,Glock 
You guys made some very spot on points. That is totally my opinion based on my knowledge. ( I am no expert )
I just want to expand a little about picking up any gun and being competent with it. I am very confident in that regard.
Just a word of caution for users to also practice, which should be covered under ,as you state, practice, practice, practice.
Be very careful when switching first from a harder trigger pull (glock for example) to a 1911 trigger pull.
It will surprise you , lol. The first shot could go anywhere, unless you've followed the rules through practice.
It usually takes one trigger pull with an un familiar gun ,then it ( the readjustment ) will be mentally locked in for a competent shooter.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Although you won't convince me to train my wife, or practice myself, with "softer" ammunition, certainly I have to concede to your points, as quoted above. The first equates to my own personal experience; and in the second case, still from purely a match-shooting perspective, I also have to agree with both you and Colonel Cooper.
> 
> I think that the disagreement we've been having has its basis in my belief that most people don't get enough training, and don't practice enough. In such cases, there is a strong need to "keep it real" during every minute of what little practice one gets. Thus my strong recommendation to practice with the ballistic equivalent of what you carry in real life.
> 
> I also think of the fabled PPC-course qualifiers who are taught to stop and collect their empties, and who then do the same practiced thing in a real street fight, losing their lives in the process.


Not really an argument - More of an exchange of viewpoints with, 'points scored' on both sides. :mrgreen:

Back in 2009 I sold, 'a ton' of reloading equipment and presses. (When the prospective buyer walked into my reloading room he looked like he'd just died and went to heaven!) Up until then I was firing between 1,000 and 1,500 fairly hot practice rounds each and every month. The typical distance at which I practiced was 16 yards; and all the distance and practice imbued me with a certain sense of physical surrealism. I would hit everything I pointed my muzzle at; and, just like at a Master's level shooting match, I could do this at blistering speed.

Sometimes I would come off the line as the most puzzled person there. I USED TO WONDER how, the heck, I was able to do that? I discovered that if I tried to do it, I didn't shoot so well; but, if I just let my reflexes do everything for me then I was able to shoot at a phenomenal level of performance. As in one or two other sports I came to the conclusion that the conscious mind (and self-doubt) can be your own worst enemies.

Ya got 'a train; ya got 'a train hard; and, then, you've got to let that training take over. IT IS SURREALISTIC to perform at such a high level; and little things like an exact choice of weapon, or whatever ammo might be used fade into non-sequiturs. Unfortunately, I've been seriously injured several times over in my life; and, upon recovery, the retraining came very hard; but, if you stay with it, the day will arrive when the skill sets (and the belief) finally return. Today, the only thing that bothers me about little things like an exact choice of weapon, or perceived recoil (Because IT IS, 'perceived recoil'.) is the tendinitis in my hands; as I continue to age it becomes more noticeable; and it can be distracting.

NOTE: The reason I usually practice pistol shooting at 16 yards is because when you can hit consistently at 16 yards then everything less than 16 yards suddenly becomes, 'a sitting duck'! Typically, I start at 7 to 10 yards and progressively work my way out. After I, 'come on' I'll shoot several 16 yard targets to smithereens; and, over the years, this has usually been a very easy thing for me to do. I won't really start thinking about aiming again until I get beyond, about, 20 yards. At 20 to 25 yards I will admit that I always work with my conscious mind and have to actually aim.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Glock Doctor said:


> Not really an argument - More of an exchange of viewpoints with, 'points scored' on both sides. :mrgreen:
> 
> Back in 2009 I sold, 'a ton' of reloading equipment and presses. (When the prospective buyer walked into my reloading room he looked like he'd just died and went to heaven!) Up until then I was firing between 1,000 and 1,500 fairly hot practice rounds each and every month. The typical distance at which I practiced was 16 yards; and all the distance and practice imbued me with a certain sense of physical surrealism. I would hit everything I pointed my muzzle at; and, just like at a Master's level shooting match, I could do this at blistering speed.
> 
> ...


We have quite a few posters on this site with varying specialities and knowledge along with great attitudes.
Appreciate you sharing your knowledge n experiences also. I am the only one with a bad attitude n hard head , stubbornness,lol.
thanks
PIC


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