# Sometimes you can't win



## noproblem5671 (Dec 6, 2006)

I watched this story on Nightline about this guy Martin Fisch ( not sure on last name spelling ) who shot a man and claimed self defense. I'm not going to to bother to go into the details of the case because he was on shaky ground in terms of a self defense claim.

What I was horrified by was that the prosecution put a lot of focus on the fact that he was using hollow point bullets in his 10MM 1911. They played up the 10MM being a higher powered than what the police use, but more so the hollow point issue. The worst part was that the interviews with the jurrors showed that they gave a lot of weight to the fact he was using hollow points. FMJ can create more liability by over penetration and hollow points can get painted as something only a whacko would carry for defense. That guy's defense attorney dropped the ball big time by letting 12 gun ignorant people get the wrong idea about hollow points. 

Don't these idiots understand that the POINT of a gun is to cause great injury to the target. That's what guns do, causing bodily injury is the extent of their effectiveness. If we don't think we are going to be killed or seriously injured we would just punch the guy in the nose.

This PC crap is fine and dandy until you are faced with a threat from one of our many citizens who aren't so PC.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Well it's plain as the nose on your face. Who every his defense lawyer was has a ACLU card in his pocket, a picture of George Soros on his desk, and vote for Hillary bumper sticker on his car. Enough said I am getting sick.


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## noproblem5671 (Dec 6, 2006)

*The up side*

At least Arizona changed or is working on changing it's laws so that instead of the person claiming self defense having to prove it was the court now has to prove it wasn't.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Harold Fish. Read all about it here:

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/


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## VegasEgo (Jul 10, 2006)

so he was found guilty of murder?


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

VegasEgo said:


> so he was found guilty of murder?


Yup.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

These media people have nothing to go with anymore, no real ammunition designed to penetrate vests, so they focus on any ammo that is readily available and tell the ignorant masses all about it. If hollow points were outlawed they would start laying into the over penetration of FMJ rounds. The Liberal media is wonderful.


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## Revolver (Aug 26, 2006)

His conviction really had nothing to do with with the cartridges he carried.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Revolver said:


> His conviction really had nothing to do with with the cartridges he carried.


Interview with juror on Dateline (from transcript at website):

*And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.

Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It's designed to kill.*


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Elliot got a education in bullets. That's why the Police carry them. What a dummy. His lawyer failed him all the way around.


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## Revolver (Aug 26, 2006)

milquetoast said:


> Interview with juror on Dateline (from transcript at website):
> 
> *And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.
> 
> Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It's designed to kill.*


I don't trust information from Dateline. I also don't understand why people are trying to play up this tiny detail after the trial. Fish's conviction had to do more with shooting an unarmed man and the actions that lead to the use of his weapon(even though I don't agree that he was wrong in doing so). No matter what ammunition you use, a prosecutor can and will use it against you. Use 9mm ball and you're using "military ammo". Use .357 Magnum SWC and you're using ammunition "more powerful than normal" and so on. Fish hurt himself by answering questions without a lawyer present(he was the only witness and in doing so put the ball in the court of the prosecution) and apparently not hiring a good one.

It still stands that Fish was not tried for carrying the wrong ammunition. He was tried for murder.


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