# The 1911, best design ever or not



## bg18566 (Apr 24, 2015)

The 1911 has been around over a hundred years. How does a handgun design survive a century and still be at the top of many peoples list? Why is the 1911 the gun to have, or not have ?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Seems to me that the 1911 fulfills all of the requirements of a sidearm, and sometimes most of the requirements of a main weapon.
1. It's adequately accurate in all of its forms,
2. It can be serviced, and even repaired, in any location and without tools,
3. It "fits" most people, including large children and small women,
4. It's easy to learn to use properly and effectively,
5. Its recoil is a slow push and quite controllable, given a little preparation,
6. It uses an adequately powerful cartridge, excellent for close-range offense and defense,
7. It's easy to reload quickly, given a little instruction and practice,
8. It is available in many different iterations of various sizes and weights, so an experienced user can choose the ideal version,
9. It's reliable to a fault, given reasonable maintenance and good-quality ammunition, and
10. It's æsthetically pleasing, both inside and out.*

Negative "Features"?
1. It is safest when carried in a very-well-designed holster which immobilizes its safety lever,
2. Many versions are hard for some people to conceal,
3. A wise user will understand that training is required, to achieve both safety and effectiveness,
5. In most people's hands, it is a short-range weapon, and
6. It needs preparation and "tuning," if the user wants to use exotic ammunition (_e.g._, JHP bullets).

*The M1911 reminds me of the work of a sculptor named Miguel Berrocal: Its form is æsthetically pleasing, and detail-stripping it without tools is an interesting puzzle to solve.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

As Steve points out there are many good things about the 1911..... However as you point out it is at the top of the list for many gun owners but so are other handguns/revolvers....

What is the best gun to have? It all boils down to personal preference as it is with what ammunition to use, which holster, etc........

To each their own..........


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

It is a shooting platform that is liked by most folks who have tried a variety of semi-autos. I prefer striker fired plastic handguns for concealed carry, but there is nothing I enjoy shooting more than a 1911.


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2013)

Some things reach perfection at their inception. The 1911 is one of them. What other things can this be said about?


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

As Steve said.

It does what it was designed to do most excellently.

And considering it can even stop tanks .... 1983. USMC......


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Cait43 said:


> As Steve points out there are many good things about the 1911..... However as you point out it is at the top of the list for many gun owners but so are other handguns/revolvers....
> 
> *What is the best gun to have? It all boils down to personal preference* as it is with what ammunition to use, which holster, etc........
> 
> To each their own..........


This.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

In order to maintain a measure of objectivity, we would have to agree upon a list of criteria and map that to candidate handguns (I am going to assume this is about handguns since the 1911 was the prime subject of this thread). And even coming up with a list of criteria is going to be hard since individual biases will certainly enter the picture. Knowing all of this, it then must come down to personal preferences, barring obviously flawed products.

My choice would by the Glock over the 1911. I say this based upon the utter simplicity of the Glock design and it's well known record of reliability and dependability. And no, I am not a Glock fanboy. And yes, I do own 1911's.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I might be starting a peeing contest, IMHO for all practical purposes, the best for me is a Glock.:smt014

GW


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

goldwing said:


> I might be starting a peeing contest, IMHO for all practical purposes, the best for me is a Glock.:smt014
> 
> GW


Oh, well... We all know about you people who "drive" Hondas. :smt083


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Oh, well... We all know about you people who "drive" Hondas. :smt083


I ride my Honda, drive my Toyota and my Dodge. My love for my G19 has risen exponentially in the last twenty-four hours since I completed my Ghost trigger job. I haven't

been to the range with it yet, but this is going to turn a good accurate gun into one of those "This is a keeper!" guns. (Pardon my exuberance)

GW:target:......................................:enforcer:


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

There is no 'best'. This is as impossible as people asking what is the 'best' self defense ammo. 

I carry one, but then my 'requirements' are not those of the guy next door. 

It's an impossible question just like questioning what is the 'best' car. I have two: one for around town with my dogs and another for cross country driving.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Liking Glocks is not an unforgivable Sin but it is close repent and follow St. John M. Browning! just had to say it.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

The very best hand gun in the entire world is ( drum roll) the one a person can shoot the best. As most here know I carry a 1911a1 every day and for me there is none better, that is for me. Then there are those who for what ever reason could not hit the side of a barn if they were locked inside the barn with one. Shoot what works best for you and enjoy the banter about what you shoot or carry. even if you are one of those sinners who carry a glock.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

tony pasley said:


> The very best hand gun in the entire world is ( drum roll) the one a person can shoot the best. As most here know I carry a 1911a1 every day and for me there is none better, that is for me. Then there are those who for what ever reason could not hit the side of a barn if they were locked inside the barn with one. Shoot what works best for you and enjoy the banter about what you shoot or carry. even if you are one of those sinners who carry a glock.


I shall repent (with my Glock on my hip):smt083

GW


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## OldManMontgomery (Nov 2, 2013)

*Best Design - So Far...*

Two reasons for the Government Model's longevity:

1. What Steve M1911A1 said early on, and -

2. Since going on sale to the public, the Model O design has been lengthened, shortened, widened, narrowed, had useless crap added on, had more or less useful crap removed, been altered to every conceivable caliber from .22 long rifle to .460 Rowland - including .38 Special. It has been adorned with nearly every sort of metallic sight ever designed, dreamed up or cobbled AND most types of glass, electronic and psychic powered sights. The results have been blued, nickeled, gold-plated, silver-plated, copper-plated, spray painted, teflon coated and I frankly don't know what all. In the ensuing one hundred and four years since 'birth', it has aftermarket parts made for it by about every manufacturing concern with enough metal working machines to attempt it.

_And it keeps working._

*Special note to Glock lovers.*
Glocks are okay handguns. I know many people love them. When aftermarket Glock parts are made by countless businesses for thirty or forty years after the patents run out, we'll see how well they hold up in real use.


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2013)

When it comes to Glock, all one has to do is look at all the Glock inspired copies on the market today to realize that it is a great design and will probably go down in history along with the 1911 as one of the great designs. But the same can be said for S&M revolvers and Beretta 92 as well. Look at the many Kel-tec P-3AT inspired .380's out there today.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Greybeard said:


> ...But the same can be said for *S&M revolvers*...[emphasis added]


So _that's_ what you use 'em for!

I'd always wondered why people bought revolvers...

Can you offer us any basic instruction?


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> So _that's_ what you use 'em for!
> 
> I'd always wondered why people bought revolvers...
> 
> Can you offer us any basic instruction?


I can't believe I did that again.............S&W, not S&M.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

OldManMontgomery said:


> Two reasons for the Government Model's longevity:
> 
> 1. What Steve M1911A1 said early on, and -
> 
> ...


Aftermarket "countless" businesses" already do make parts for Glocks and have been for quite some time. And they do work quite well... some better than others just like any aftermarket product in any firearm. Glocks have already proven themselves so that issue is old hat.

As I said I am not a Glock fanboy, just like I am not a 1911 fanboy or a 92FS fanboy. I admire anything that works well, is of a time-proven design, and is reliable. The argument between Glocks and 1911's will probably go on long after I am dust but this shouldn't take place because these two designs are NOT even in the same category. The 1911 is a single action pistol whereas the Glock is a double action only design. This is similar to comparing oranges and apples.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Greybeard said:


> ........... But the same can be said for S&M revolvers ......


Kinda gives a new meaning to _pistol whipping_....

_50 Shades of Steel_?


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Greybeard said:


> I can't believe I did that again.............S&W, not S&M.


A Freudian slip


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Ah, yes...
My psychiatrist's lover: The girl in the Freudian slip.


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

Getting back to the original topic, if I were going strictly for simplicity and reliability I'd get another Pistolet Makarova. (But I believe I'll stick with my Model of 1911, Model 1911A1, and two Series 70 Government Models.)


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## dakota1911 (Jun 9, 2015)

Although I like them and have been carrying a 1911 for a long time, I am amazed at how many people are making them these days. One thing I think that helps is that given different grips, main spring housings, triggers, grip safeties, thumb safeties, etc you can get the grip just the way you like it. It is about the best for that given the huge aftermarket of parts suppliers. Maybe in the future you will have something like a SIG 320 with a steel substructure as the gun, stick your hand into a 3D scanner and have a 3D printer give you a grip that fits your hand exactly, but till now the 1911 has been pretty good.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

dakota1911:


> I am amazed at how many people are making them these days


Indeed many do there has to be a reason. The Great American Desert I see? :smt023 :smt023 :smt023


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## Liamettocs (Dec 30, 2014)

While I agree that the Glock is a fine handgun, probably iconic, but it's intrinsic weakness is its plastic frame. In the hands of most shooters, the 1911 will probably be more accurate, especially with follow-up shots, because of the way the all metal frame absorbs recoil.


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

bg18566 said:


> The 1911 has been around over a hundred years. How does a handgun design survive a century and still be at the top of many peoples list? Why is the 1911 the gun to have, or not have ?


I liked it because of its feel, and point-ability; and that it was a Browning design; and that it was a .45 ACP.
It is more popular now than it was then, 35 years ago. I don't know how many makers there are now, but, it seems like every major gun company has one.
That was unexpected, with the rush to Glock by so many police and civilians. It is counter-intuitive that an old design, is more popular than ever, but there it is.


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## glockman99 (Jul 4, 2015)

IMO, the Glock is a good handgun for folks with little training, where the 1911 is a gun that requires a fair amount of training to use safely.

For me, I'll take a 1911 everytime.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

glockman99 said:


> IMO, the Glock is a good handgun for folks with little training, where the 1911 is a gun that requires a fair amount of training to use safely...


While you're correct about the need for training, to use a 1911 safely, it is my own experience that, given good instruction, the 1911 is a better pistol for beginners than is the Glock.

It's easier for a beginner to learn good trigger control with a 1911 than with a Glock. Further, the weight of a 1911, and its distribution, makes recoil easier to handle than with a Glock. The 1911's safety, and the need to use it, makes the beginning shooter think about what he's doing, and also it gives the instructor more information about the shooter's attention and concentration. Further, the continued downward pressure of the beginner's thumb on the safety adds to a better hold and better recoil control.

The Glock is "point and shoot." The 1911 is "think, point, think, shoot."
When learning to shoot the pistol, thinking is a good thing.


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## glockman99 (Jul 4, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> While you're correct about the need for training, to use a 1911 safely, it is my own experience that, given good instruction, the 1911 is a better pistol for beginners than is the Glock.
> 
> It's easier for a beginner to learn good trigger control with a 1911 than with a Glock. Further, the weight of a 1911, and its distribution, makes recoil easier to handle than with a Glock. The 1911's safety, and the need to use it, makes the beginning shooter think about what he's doing, and also it gives the instructor more information about the shooter's attention and concentration. Further, the continued downward pressure of the beginner's thumb on the safety adds to a better hold and better recoil control.
> 
> ...


What I am thinking, from the standpoint of "safety", is that a Glock , since it is a striker-fired pistol, it takes a 5-6.5 pound, fairly long trigger-pull (due to the "take-up slack") to fire the pistol, where a "tuned" 1911, only takes 3.5-4 lbs of a short trigger-pull to fire the pistol.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

glockman99 said:


> What I am thinking, from the standpoint of "safety", is that a Glock , since it is a striker-fired pistol, it takes a 5-6.5 pound, fairly long trigger-pull (due to the "take-up slack") to fire the pistol, where a "tuned" 1911, only takes 3.5-4 lbs of a short trigger-pull to fire the pistol.


Yes, but... (Don't you just hate people who say, "Yes, but..."?)

Regardless of the longish, slightly firmer trigger action of the Glock, since there is no safety to think about and manipulate, it's all too easy for an inexperienced shooter to unthinkingly press the trigger and let off a shot.
I suppose that what I'm trying to point out is that the Glock can "lull you into a false sense of safety," if you depend upon its trigger action to keep you from doing the wrong thing. You can come to believe that you don't need training, because the Glock's "safe action" trigger will do the job for you.

In the case of a pistol with a safety lever (like, for instance, the 1911), and particularly if the shooter has received some training, an extra bit of thinking needs to take place before the shot goes off.

Of course, the one and only really effective safety mechanism resides in your head, right between your ears. But all too many people don't use it, or, at least, don't use it effectively or all of the time.

BTW: A double-action-only (DAO) or kinda-double-action-only (Glock) trigger is, I believe, ideal for deep-cover concealment and pocket-holster carry. In fact, I would never carry a single-action (SA) pistol, safety lever or not, in my pocket.
I have even used OWB belt holsters which, far from immobilizing the SA-pistol's safety lever, actually seem to help it to move to "off." A well-designed holster will immobilize a SA pistol's safety lever. Any decent holster should cover a gun's trigger completely, too.


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

To my Model of 1911, my Model 1911A1, and my two Colt Government Models, I have now added a new Browning Hi-Power. (Hard to get enough of Browning's creations!)


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## Donn (Jul 26, 2013)

Might not be the best design, but it's one of them.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Far as I'm concerned, the only 'bad' in the 1911 is most of the feed ramp being in the frame.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

glockman99 said:


> IMO, the Glock is a good handgun for folks with little training, where the 1911 is a gun that requires a fair amount of training to use safely.
> 
> For me, I'll take a 1911 everytime.


You're kidding... right?


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## glockman99 (Jul 4, 2015)

SouthernBoy said:


> You're kidding... right?


No...Should I be?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

glockman99 said:


> No...Should I be?


For certain they are different platforms but I have found that there is nothing in the Glock design to make it a better choice for people with little training. To add to this, I have found nothing in any semi-auto pistol design that lends itself better for people with little to no training. What I have found is a lot of different pistols with varying designs, shapes, and feel that tend to have their own quirks and peculiarities with both aid and hinder a shooter's familiarity with them.

I have trained with a number of different handguns, pistols and revolvers, and while there certainly are differences, all required one to be willing to put forth the time and effort to become effective and consistent with them. Granted some were better than others, but I am of the opinion that this is largely a matter of the individual more than the gun.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

Upon reading the other posts this thought struck me...

There's really no way to answer this question because of an 'apples/oranges' issue.

Show me another pistol that's been around 100+ years, then you'll have something to compare the 1911 with. I mean, everything you propose to compare it to is just an infant by comparison. Is that really fair or meaningful?


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I think the fact that the Glock design can be used for .380, 9mm, 10mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 acp and are all in production at the same time says it all. Colt is circling the drain as far as I can tell. Glock has been imitated by nearly every gun maker on planet Earth, I doubt they're going away any time soon. JMHO YMMV

GW


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Seems to me that the 1911 fulfills all of the requirements of a sidearm, and sometimes most of the requirements of a main weapon.
> 1. It's adequately accurate in all of its forms,
> 2. It can be serviced, and even repaired, in any location and without tools,
> 3. It "fits" most people, including large children and small women,
> ...


as usual Steve is right about this topic BUT

do you realize that you can say the same thing about most striker fired guns especially Glocks too?

personally I love the guns and hate the reASSEMBLY-- todays barrels have the integrated links that make assembly easier for sure

JMHO


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## bluedog46 (Jan 29, 2015)

The 1911 is my favorite gun. The trigger is really sweet and crisp. Great safety features and mags are cheap. 

The only drawback is 8 rounds, but that is what they make a new york reload for ( back up gun in the pocket and extra mags)


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

Steve, you are the expert. I'm just an amateur. But, for me, one negative feature of the 1911 is the takedown. Compared to the takedown of, say, a Sig P220, the 1911 has, for some of us, "too many moving parts." Then again, the 1911 has been tweaked and re-tweaked for over a 100 years. Maybe some company out there has been able to improve the takedown. Are you aware of any? 'Cause I would be very interested in such a model, if so.


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

bluedog46, I agree with you. However, Para USA claims to have solved that problem, with their double-stack 1911 magazines. I've always wondered, though: How does the double-stack magazine affect the grip of the 1911? Anybody ever tried one of those out?


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

For me, the Glock is like a pit bull dog. It ain't pretty, but it's incredibly tough. And you can always rely on it to stay in the fight till the end. BUT, not everybody likes a pit bull dog. And besides, there are so many wonderful breeds to choose from. Do we have to choose just one?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

northstar19 said:


> Steve, you are the expert. I'm just an amateur. But, for me, one negative feature of the 1911 is the takedown. Compared to the takedown of, say, a Sig P220, the 1911 has, for some of us, "too many moving parts." Then again, the 1911 has been tweaked and re-tweaked for over a 100 years. Maybe some company out there has been able to improve the takedown. Are you aware of any? 'Cause I would be very interested in such a model, if so.


Nope, nobody has yet figured out how to make the 1911's takedown simpler or easier.
I believe that the reason for that is, if you'll pardon my bluntness, that the 1911's takedown isn't terribly difficult. Remember that GIs who were issued the 1911 were required to strip and reassemble it blindfolded. Lots and lots of right-off-the-street recruits learned to do that, even during the rush-'em-through years of WW2.

Further, as stated before, no other widely-used gun (not merely pistol) can be completely disassembled, and repaired with scrounged replacement parts in the field, all without the use of any tools other than the other parts of the gun. And there is no loss of combat accuracy.
A Mauser semi-auto pistol and a French revolver come close, as does the Garand. But still, none disassembles completely, and the Mauser usually won't use scrounged parts. And the Garand needs to be re-zeroed afterward.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Nope, nobody has yet figured out how to make the 1911's takedown simpler or easier.
> I believe that the reason for that is, if you'll pardon my bluntness, that the 1911's takedown isn't terribly difficult. Remember that GIs who were issued the 1911 were required to strip and reassemble it blindfolded. Lots and lots of right-off-the-street recruits learned to do that, even during the rush-'em-through years of WW2.
> 
> Further, as stated before, no other widely-used gun (not merely pistol) can be completely disassembled,*and repaired with scrounged replacement parts in the field, all without the use of any tools other than the other parts of the gun. And there is no loss of combat accuracy.*
> A Mauser semi-auto pistol and a French revolver come close, as does the Garand. But still, none disassembles completely, and the Mauser usually won't use scrounged parts. And the Garand needs to be re-zeroed afterward.


i am curious about the scrounged replacement parts, which parts, are we cannibalizing other guns? What part of the gun do you use to take the grips off?

My Glock tool box only has a 3/32ths pin punch in it.Popcornsmilie

GW


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## bluedog46 (Jan 29, 2015)

northstar19 said:


> bluedog46, I agree with you. However, Para USA claims to have solved that problem, with their double-stack 1911 magazines. I've always wondered, though: How does the double-stack magazine affect the grip of the 1911? Anybody ever tried one of those out?


THe 1911 double stacks seem to be not too much bigger, but you can feel the double stack 45


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## Philco (Apr 17, 2012)

OldManMontgomery said:


> Two reasons for the Government Model's longevity:
> 
> 1. What Steve M1911A1 said early on, and -
> 
> ...


Post of the year here folks! Please take note. Post of the year!!!!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

goldwing said:


> i am curious about the scrounged replacement parts, which parts, are we cannibalizing other guns?


The 1911 user can cannibalize other guns, use purchased parts without any fitting (except the safety, which sometimes has to be fitted), use battlefield pickups, or whatever.



goldwing said:


> What part of the gun do you use to take the grips off?...


To unscrew the GI-standard slotted screws which secure the grips, you use the right-angled bottom flange of the sear/trigger/grip-safety spring.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

It's hard for me to imagine any sort of argument between the merits and shortcomings of any firearm design that has stood the test of time and use. Quite simply put, all of this with these two fundamental designs (1911 and Glock) is a matter of personal preference.

My stance is this. I have examples of both in my collection but what sits around in my home and leaves the house with me when I head out is most of the time, one of my Glocks and not infrequently, an M&P 9 Shield. I know folks who prefer the 1911 in one of its variants and carry accordingly.

Preferences are funny things. They tend to lead to opinions which in turn, tend to lead to strong disagreements and arguments. So I like my M&P's and Glocks for carry and home defense. Steve prefers his 1911's for the same use. And this is not only fine but exactly how it should be. Preferences are indeed, funny things.


(Sorry Steve, not picking on you. It's just that your name was the first that came to mind.)


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

1911, 51 parts. Glock, 33 parts. I like simplicity!

GW


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> ...(Sorry Steve, not picking on you. It's just that your name was the first that came to mind.)


No worries, mate.
I feel honored!

And, BTW, although I truly believe that JM Browning sits at the right hand of God (if God exists, that is), and I recommend the Model O, the 1911, for every purpose including æsthetic ones, I no longer use or carry one!
Arthritis has reduced me to a .380 pistol. But it's a Browning design, made by Colt's.


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

Steve, as the 1911 is to you, the Glock 17 is to me. Especially nowadays, with the Gen4 grips and the high-tech hollow-point ammo. I too could wax rhapsodic about its many virtues, as it seems to me. And very few negatives. However, pretty it ain't. Unless someone likes spartan, even unto the point of brutal. Is brutal an aesthetic category? Maybe to some. It's like having a dog that is so ugly that you're almost proud of it. But it's also very smart and very tough. And you raised it from a puppy. So it's part of the family. That's the Glock 17. To me.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Nostalgia.

Patriotism.

They're sexy.

Whatever the U.S. Army chose is good enough for me.

It's the one my dad used in the war.

"It's all steel, man....no plastic."


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