# Breaking the bad habits....how do I find a truly competent firearms instructor?



## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

I have been involved in a couple of scary industrial fires the past few years and I was very surprised at how difficult it was to operate a simple fire extinguisher while in the panic mode. It seemed as if my hands had frozen and all my movements were clumsy, slow and spastic. This has gotten me to wondering how I would handle a weapon (and myself) in a panic situation. 

Even when watching a high speed chase on TV I have seen suspects defaulting to their training and using their turn signals while being pursued. Apparently, when it hit's the fan, training counts for A LOT. I have decided that punching holes in paper has not really prepared me for a sudden crisis situation. I also think for the first time in my life I am truly teachable. Who trained you and was it worthwhile? 

Thanks!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

First rule of preparedness; keep it simple. While it is true that you can train with most any equipment for most any situation, keeping things simple not only facilitates your training but takes a lot of the worry out of operating equipment in an extreme situation. You mentioned how difficult it was to operate a fire extinguisher during a fire. Imagine operating a weapons system when you're suddenly under attack.

Having holsters with buttons and straps and levers and crazy cants and a host of other "stuff" can be a problem when the only thing you want to do is to get that gun into action. And having a gun that has an external safety, perhaps a decocker and whatever else on it can be a problem when you're so focused on your attacker(s) that you forgot the state which that gun is currently in. And there is another factor at play here. Suppose you suffer an injury to your support hand and/or arm or even your shooting hand and/or arm. Having additional things to do before that gun can be brought into action could be disastrous. Still, you can train for most anything. Me? I like to keep it simple and as free of extra "stuff" as possible. Now to your question.

Just punching paper is not training and is not going to test you and your reactions in the event of an extreme encounter. It will help to improve some things, really only a few, but it is not going to test your ability to clear leather, or plastic, get on target, and put rounds into that target. I go to an indoor range every two weeks, usually with a neighbor friend, and we go through a series of drills to put ourselves through various tests. We do not use conventional targets; we use paper plates (6 or 7 inch and 9 inch), index cards (vertical and horizontal), and 8.5"x11" copy paper with drawn numbered shapes. We have the target stays flip from edge to face and back to edge in timed sequences and at varying distances. We do draw and fire exercises, reloads (tactical and full), double and triple taps, multi-target scenarios, strong hand weak hand drills, etc. In other words, we do the best we can do under the confines of a modern indoor range to test our abilities under a little stress. Granted, it is not formal training but it is a heck of a lot better than just punching paper... which we don't do except for a couple of 5-round mags at warmup time.

When you train this way, you'd be amazed how it soon becomes second nature to respond and how everything just falls into place; the draw, the press out, the grip and hold, and the fire. So I would suggest that you first evaluate your equipment. See how well it works for you. Do a lot of draw and fire practice at home with an unloaded gun. Perfect your grip and hold and stance. See how well and how consistently you can get that gun into play. Try to keep things simple because as you have seen with fire extinguishers, the same thing can happen with your holstered gun when you find yourself in a sudden extreme situation.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Do you realize what you're admitting to? There are two separate and distinct physiological methods in which to respond to an emergency situation: Anger, or fear. Fear, or anger. Anger, or fear. That's it! 

Me thinks you've been spending too much time on internet gun forums (or reading the gunzines). What you describe is emotional fear response - NOT anger response. Anger implies determination; and a determined mind will, automatically, rule over any aberrant emotions. 

You don't get tunnel vision; you don't lose fine motor control; there's no auditory exclusion, nor time compression. Once an angry mind focuses there's an extremely high probability that it's going to accomplish whatever goal it seeks to achieve.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

I've never been in a gun fight, but I have run towards the engineroom when the announcing system was screaming "fire in the engineroom". Practice takes over and you do what you've done before. I recommend USPSA or IDPA shooting. When the gun doesn't go "bang", you tap and rack on autopilot. The timer doesn't cause the same stress, but it does cause stress.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Thanks for all the help everybody! Lots of good replies and suggestions. I appreciate the input. 

Keith


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Glock Doctor said:


> Do you realize what you're admitting to? There are two separate and distinct physiological methods in which to respond to an emergency situation: Anger, or fear. Fear, or anger. Anger, or fear. That's it!
> 
> Me thinks you've been spending too much time on internet gun forums (or reading the gunzines). What you describe is emotional fear response - NOT anger response. Anger implies determination; and a determined mind will, automatically, rule over any aberrant emotions.
> 
> You don't get tunnel vision; you don't lose fine motor control; there's no auditory exclusion, nor time compression. Once an angry mind focuses there's an extremely high probability that it's going to accomplish whatever goal it seeks to achieve.


I can't imagine saying that to someone, whether it's a matter of being frightened or angry. I'm going to keep this short, but you can train all you want, and the day of reckoning, is the day that determines whether or not, all the training you've had in the past, pays off.

You speak to 10 people that have had to point a gun at another, or have had a gun pointed at them, and chances are very good, not all replies will be of a positive nature. For those that have had to exchange gun fire, the curve is even more skewed.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

KeithC. said:


> I have been involved in a couple of scary industrial fires the past few years and I was very surprised at how difficult it was to operate a simple fire extinguisher while in the panic mode. It seemed as if my hands had frozen and all my movements were clumsy, slow and spastic. This has gotten me to wondering how I would handle a weapon (and myself) in a panic situation.
> 
> Even when watching a high speed chase on TV I have seen suspects defaulting to their training and using their turn signals while being pursued. Apparently, when it hit's the fan, training counts for A LOT. I have decided that punching holes in paper has not really prepared me for a sudden crisis situation. I also think for the first time in my life I am truly teachable. Who trained you and was it worthwhile?
> 
> Thanks!


Keith, what you have realized, few people understand. Good for you.

I think the NRA has the most readily available instructors. You should ask around and try to find a LEO instructor as well, if you can find one.

If you can't find a LEO instructor, then an NRA instructor who is also a LEO would be a great choice.

The various police academies do the best job of teaching pistol defense. So someone who has been through that or who teaches that would be your best bet.

You should also note that the FBI teaches things differently than other LEO's. I'm not sure they are better or worse. Just recognize that the two are different.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Glock Doctor said:


> Do you realize what you're admitting to? There are two separate and distinct physiological methods in which to respond to an emergency situation: Anger, or fear. Fear, or anger. Anger, or fear. That's it!
> 
> Me thinks you've been spending too much time on internet gun forums (or reading the gunzines). What you describe is emotional fear response - NOT anger response. Anger implies determination; and a determined mind will, automatically, rule over any aberrant emotions.
> 
> You don't get tunnel vision; you don't lose fine motor control; there's no auditory exclusion, nor time compression. Once an angry mind focuses there's an extremely high probability that it's going to accomplish whatever goal it seeks to achieve.


Everyone needs to be trained and re-trained. About every 3 to 6 months at a minimum for the re-training. So at least twice each year.

And this does not mean just going to a range and plinking. It means taking a course with an instructor who knows what they are teaching.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Glock Doctor,

_"Once an angry mind focuses there's an extremely high probability that it's going to accomplish whatever goal it seeks to achieve."_

How can an angry mind make up for the lack of high quality, well executed and repetitively reinforced training? Can the precise muscle memory needed for fine motor skills be created by mere attitude? Or is it a part of training? Am I missing something?


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Adam,

What is a LEO?

Thank you.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> Adam,
> 
> What is a LEO?
> 
> Thank you.


Law Enforcement Officer.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

KeithC. said:


> Glock Doctor,
> 
> _"Once an angry mind focuses there's an extremely high probability that it's going to accomplish whatever goal it seeks to achieve."_
> 
> How can an angry mind make up for the lack of high quality, well executed and repetitively reinforced training? Can the precise muscle memory needed for fine motor skills be created by mere attitude? Or is it a part of training? Am I missing something?


When you were clumsy with the fire extinguisher what emotions were you feeling?


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Frustration. My body could not go as fast as my mind.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

CLICK LINK BELOW
Stressful encounters: Why anger and fear can be good


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

pic said:


> CLICK LINK BELOW
> Stressful encounters: Why anger and fear can be good


Thanks for that link pin!


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

AdamSmith said:


> Keith, what you have realized, few people understand. Good for you.
> 
> I think the NRA has the most readily available instructors. You should ask around and try to find a LEO instructor as well, if you can find one.
> 
> ...


Adam,

Thank you for the encouragement to follow through with this.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not going to argue this one; and if I've, 'stretched' anyone's credulity I apologize. Admittedly my viewpoint and physiological reactions are unique; but, from a very early age in life - and well before, 'Kung-Fu' ever made its first appearance on American TV, and launched the martial arts craze - I was already sweating in various dojos; and practicing the Eastern Arts and psychologies. Consequently I do NOT take modern western combat psychology seriously.

To my mind modern combat psychology is just that much more, 'socialist crap'. It ain't good for anything in combat other than, perhaps, getting the practitioner killed. Neither should anyone confuse physical training with emotional training as several people have, now, already done. The two are adjuncts; and the one is not equal to the other.

If it might shed light on this, admittedly unique, confrontational physiology: Visualize, if you will, a Ninja warrior fumbling with his weapons. Even in the worst of, 'B grade' movies it never happens - Right! Now visualize a highly self-disciplined, Okinawan, Qi Gong Master moving across the dojo at you. Same thing! I will, further, assure you that there ain't going to be no loss of fine motor control, auditory exclusion, or tunnel vision taking place - Not with someone like that!

Remember Tom Cruise's, 'Last Of The Samurai' movie? Remember the young man who warned Algen when he was getting his ass thoroughly kicked, '_Two minds!' 'Two minds!_' This is, 'What' I've been alluding to. If anyone wants to stay with the more conventional, modern western view of what physiological combat reactions are then, hey, that's fine with me. Sorry if I intruded. I don't fight like everybody else; I fight as I was trained to do when I was a young teenager. So far, the techniques have kept me in good stead and helped to give me a long life.

(Which goes a long way toward explaining, 'Why' I'll never be an atheist.)


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Glock Doctor,

Thank you for explaining yourself. Actually, I don't read gun magazines and I know nothing about modern western combat psychology. My question was who trained you and was it worthwhile. Thank you for contributing.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Glock Doctor said:


> Do you realize what you're admitting to? There are two separate and distinct physiological methods in which to respond to an emergency situation: Anger, or fear. Fear, or anger. Anger, or fear. That's it!
> 
> Me thinks you've been spending too much time on internet gun forums (or reading the gunzines). What you describe is emotional fear response - NOT anger response. Anger implies determination; and a determined mind will, automatically, rule over any aberrant emotions.
> 
> You don't get tunnel vision; you don't lose fine motor control; there's no auditory exclusion, nor time compression. Once an angry mind focuses there's an extremely high probability that it's going to accomplish whatever goal it seeks to achieve.


Half of "it" is personal and psychological, yes.

But the other half, as you have apparently learned yourself, is all about training.

And training is not a one time thing. You must constantly be re-trained.

I undergo pistol and shotgun training several times a year, in case I ever need to kill someone with my 45 ACP or my 12 gauge, so that it will be automatic and unhesitant.

I practice sword fighting practically every day, in case I ever need to kill someone with my knife.

I practice kata as well in case I am ever unarmed, which is rare -- I am virtually always armed -- and there are usually good weapons lying around if you just look.

Given the personal mental capacity to kill, one still needs constant training to do it -- whether defensively or on offense (as in the military).


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

AdamSmith said:


> Half of "it" is personal and psychological, yes.
> 
> But the other half, as you have apparently learned yourself, is all about training.
> 
> ...


You sound like a well trained killing machine.:numbchuck:
Just remember though, after you've defended yourself without hesitation ,the prosecution (district attorney) will come after you also AUTOMATICALLY without HESITATION


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

pic said:


> You sound like a well trained killing machine.:numbchuck:
> Just remember though, after you've defended yourself without hesitation ,the prosecution (district attorney) will come after you also AUTOMATICALLY without HESITATION


That's true, so it is better not to hang around.

And if at your own home, they teach you to yell a lot before you shoot, just like Zimmerman did.

You need to be aimed on target, center mass, finger on the trigger, while you are yelling.

And if the guy runs, don't shoot him in the back. Same code as in the Old West.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

I think the "Anger or Fear" response is better described as "Fight or Flight"... as uncontrolled anger causes mistakes or irrational behavior. Controlled anger is beneficial... and fear is simply something one must overcome to survive.

The Marine Corp drilled the phrase "Adapt & Overcome" during my time in the Corp and I am a firm believer in Adaptive Combat Training as you can never prepare for every possible scenario. Being able to adapt to your surroundings, body position and the threat is something you'll have to deal with (adapt & overcome). If you slip and fall... you may not have time to get up, you'll be fighting from your back if that's what it takes to survive. Over the years I've changed my opinion of different philosophies regarding training due to either personal experience or experiences of those who have survived gunfights. I personally don't put a lot of stock in theories or training programs from those who have never been exposed to combat or faced with a deadly threat... that's just me, your millage may vary. Finding qualified, experienced instructors has always been important to me.

As a LEO, I've had the good fortune to train with some amazing instructors from road patrol to SWAT team instructors from all over the country. I've met amazing people like Lt. Col Dave Grossman who teaches combat mindset to the military and police officers. I've been to multiple schools that create stress to evoke emotional responses and test abilities... and uncover weaknesses as well. Again, the ability to adapt and overcome... the mindset one needs to survive is paramount. Mindset goes hand in hand with physical training and is of equal importance imo. I work in an area that demands me to be ever vigilant. I don't feel it necessary detail my personal experiences over the internet... just to prove I speak from experience, however, I find myself reacting to threats instinctively as a result of regular training. Training with stress is a huge benefit to overcoming fear/flight and put you into the anger/fight mentality. Physical stress through physical exertion during firearms training as well as audio stress help you to focus on the task at hand... survival.

Last time I was in a deadly force confrontation (not too long ago)... I was on auto-pilot. Once I saw the armed suspect cross my path, running on foot, I simply acted. I don't remember stopping, putting my car in park, getting out of my vehicle or drawing my sidearm... it just happened. I was focused... in the zone so to speak. I didn't feel any emotion (that I recall)... just focus. Focus on the threat and focus on survival. Afterwards, having time to reflect on that event, I realized those actions were done subconsciously and without deliberate thought or premeditation... due to training and my mindset.

Most confrontations on the street require you to simply react... without much warning or preparedness. Things sometimes happen very quickly and reacting is all you can do... obviously being prepared is a luxury not always offered. Staying current with your training goes a long way to keeping skills sharp, as shooting is a perishable skill as well as a quick draw/presentation.

Others may have a difference of opinion and I respect that...not everybody has to subscribe to my way of thinking. MY opinion comes from MY training and MY personal experience... not a book or website (although i do read up on the subject). Adaptive training imo works for me... and if I find something new down the road that makes sense to me, I may incorperate that too. One who refuses to learn or change does themselves a disservice.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

TAPnRACK,

Thank you for sharing your real world experience. That is very meaningful. One of our CPR trainers at work told us that 80% of what we learned in his class that day would be forgotten within 6 weeks if we made no intentional attempt to retain it.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

TAPnRACK said:


> I think the "Anger or Fear" response is better described as "Fight or Flight"... as uncontrolled anger causes mistakes or irrational behavior. Controlled anger is beneficial... and fear is simply something one must overcome to survive.
> 
> The Marine Corp drilled the phrase "Adapt & Overcome" during my time in the Corp and I am a firm believer in Adaptive Combat Training as you can never prepare for every possible scenario. Being able to adapt to your surroundings, body position and the threat is somethong you'll have to deal with (adapt & overcome). If you slip and fall... you may not have time to get up, you'll be fighting from your back if that's what it takes to survive. Over the years I've changed my opinion of different philosophies regarding training due to either personal experience or experiences of those who have survived gunfights. I personally don't put a lot of stock in theories or training programs from those who have never been exposed to combat or faced with a deadly threat... that's just me, your millage may vary. Finding qualified, experienced instructors has always been important to me.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your dedication, great points you make, especially the stress training with different elements ,there are many officers who just want to get their time in, and I could understand that.
But I think you are someone who loves what they do, and does it well. Thanks


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## Lonestar3 (Dec 25, 2013)

After hearing about and receiving instruction and helpful hints from many shooters, professional and otherwise, i have come to the conclusion I have to do what works best for me in the area of marksmanship. There are some absolutes I have adopted, some I modified and some just didn't work for me. I find I shoot best when I just set myself with a grip and stance without thinking much about it. What I Find amusing is the helpful shooter or RM that offers suggestions on what I am doing wrong when they can see a big ragged hole in the bullseye on my target. I am not sure what I will do in a self defense situation and I don't want to find out but I do know It is very unlikely the average street thug is a better shot than I am. Confidence comes with practice more than instruction or anything else.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Lonestar3 said:


> After hearing about and receiving instruction and helpful hints from many shooters, professional and otherwise, i have come to the conclusion I have to do what works best for me in the area of marksmanship. There are some absolutes I have adopted, some I modified and some just didn't work for me. I find I shoot best when I just set myself with a grip and stance without thinking much about it. What I Find amusing is the helpful shooter or RM that offers suggestions on what I am doing wrong when they can see a big ragged hole in the bullseye on my target. I am not sure what I will do in a self defense situation and I don't want to find out but I do know It is very unlikely the average street thug is a better shot than I am. Confidence comes with practice more than instruction or anything else.


Avoidance and awareness of your surroundings is my primary focus when out n about.
A street thug might not be a great shot, but they will pull that trigger without even thinking about it.
You and I ,will most likely not pull the trigger until we are surely justified .


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## OGCJason (Nov 4, 2013)

What a great discussion thread, and I'll say this: I agree with everything said! 

I'd categorize training into 3 categories:

1. Target training (this is what's needed to learn to hit the target and to retain that skill)

2. Tactical and Mechanical Training - this is where you learn more complex skills such as weak handed draw, shooting under duress, in inclement weather, in the dark, etc. 

3. Mental training - having discussions with friends, family, and loved ones about your home and self defense mindset. What does it mean to take a life? What is the likely aftermath? Legal issues? Family support and solidarity, etc. 

These are all topics I discuss in my CCW training classes, along with the statement that their training for the CCW is a lifestyle and my class is only the beginning. A verbatim phrase I use is:

"I don't care where you train or with whom. I'd prefer you came back to me for refresher and continued learning as I will undoubtedly learn more myself to pass on on the next 6-12 months. But no matter what, you should continually be training and learning."

One that I'll add after reading this thread includes self defense with other items besides guns as they are but one tool. Other tools could be knives, your hands or any one of a number of items be it a crowbar, hammer, axe or whatever.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

I believe TapNRack has given the best advice so far. His point being, which I agree with, is that training under stress is a major requirement. My point as well, that continuous re-training is further required, will hopefully be comprehended by those who think simply plinking at targets at the range is good enough. It is not good enough -- definitely not. Much more is continuously required.

And KeithC's dawning of this whole concept is refreshing, that someone could realize all this on their own and seek improvement. That's simply great !!!


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## OGCJason (Nov 4, 2013)

While TapnRacks thoughts here are extremely lucid and well document his own experience, I would add an addendum to that, primarily being that training can take many forms and that all training styles are not suited to every scenario. 

One of the most popular training classes is the certification for CCW. In most states this is usually anywhere from 4-12 hours of class time and sometimes 2-4 hours of range time. I recently audited a CCW class with a buddy in Ohio and the instructors were former Marines, NRA Instructors, etc. 

They took a very heavy-handed approach to this class of civilians, with several females and a few senior citizens. The "class" was them regaling us with tales from their military days dropping HALO jumps from choppers and other aircraft. It was very surrealistic because as a former military man myself, much if it reeked of Hollywood commando visuals not the more realistic side of military lifestyle. 

They insisted we address them as "Sergeant" and all that. Scared two women out of even coming out for the range day. Said if we brought a gun to the range that wasn't clean to their standard, they'd turn us away with no refund. If we did A, B, or C wrong, we'd fail and no refund. 

I bit my tongue until it was done and the head guy gave me the certificate. He asked me what I thought and I said, "Really?"

Combat training, and introducing stressors is all well and good once you have basics down, but it's done in building blocks and they were putting the cart before the horse. One guy was up practicing his weak handed draw before his strong draw was even hitting the target consistently. 

I didn't say this to him but did say I thought it was a little heavy on anecdotes and light on the meat of what I thought a CCW class should include, specifically the basics of guns, cleaning, maintenance and the law, as well as the ethical element. Scaring people into not owning a gun is not the goal and I think they were approaching it a little backwards.

Finding a good instructor that recognizes the needs if the students and adapts instruction accordingly is critical. These guys were not instructors, they were gung-ho former marines hanging onto their glory days by finding new people to tell stories to under the auspices of training them

Being former military doesn't necessarily qualify ANYONE as an instructor. Don't get me wrong here, I have the utmost respect for military and LEOs, but that doesn't qualify them as teachers.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

OGCJason said:


> While TapnRacks thoughts here are extremely lucid and well document his own experience, I would add an addendum to that, primarily being that training can take many forms and that all training styles are not suited to every scenario.
> 
> One of the most popular training classes is the certification for CCW. In most states this is usually anywhere from 4-12 hours of class time and sometimes 2-4 hours of range time. I recently audited a CCW class with a buddy in Ohio and the instructors were former Marines, NRA Instructors, etc.
> 
> ...


Military instructors focus too much on long range accuracy, even though spray and pray is the current modern shooting model for the military now.

LEO instructors focus more on stress. Plus LEO's are the experts with handguns and shotguns, not the military.

The military are experts with the carbine battle rifles. And in a typical gunfight you are not going to be using your carbine or even your shotgun.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Jason,

Sounds like you had a bad experience which is unfortunate. 

All the experience or knowledge won't make a good instructor if they can't convey knowledge so the student understands the information and apply it... and I agree not every person who has served in the military or is a LEO is automatically a qualified instructor.... teaching takes a lot of work & patience and not everyone is able to do it effectively, and not everybody should. If my previous post came off that way I apologize... as that is not what I meant.

A good instructor needs to understand the skill level of the students and run the class accordingly... for safety reasons if nothing else. Basic marksmanship and fundamentals must be established before moving on to more advanced techniques. Most start out with a CCW/CPL and move onto a Level 1 course which must be completed before a Level 2 handgun class is attended. 

The greatest challenge of being an instructor is maintaining safety as you teach new techniques and perform live fire exercises. I think anyone interested in becoming an instructor should invest the time in the NRA Instructor Courses to learn techniques on how to instruct. It's a worthwhile class even if you don't end up instructing.

Coming up with appropriate courses of fire based on skill levels and experience is something every good instructor needs to consider... you cannot move onto more advanced skills or drills without the basics firmly engrained and well as the 4 rules of firearm safety constantly being observed.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I took the two day NRA course in 1995 just to hear and see what the day offered. We had two lectures that day with range time, though I was asked to give up my range time to someone else because I was a member at the facility. The two lecturers were most interesting. One was a Sheriff's captain in the local county and the other was an attorney aligned with the NRA. Both were excellent.

Since then I have taken four classes (seminars really) on related topics. Three were about Virginia law and the use of deadly force and one was more like an advanced after-issue class for permit holders. All were valuable and well worth the time and costs and I frequently recommend to those who chose to carry a firearm that they get this sort of training. The three laws and deadly force courses were conducted by an attorney well known to many in the gun culture in my state. He is a strong supporter of our rights and even carries himself.

Training in the use of your firearm is only part of the equation. You really need to learn the intimacies of the laws in your respective states so that you don't get caught up in legal entanglements. I also advise people to consider purchasing a personal liability policy to protect their assets in the event they have to use that gun and are sued by the perp or his family. Protecting what is yours is also quite important.


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## OGCJason (Nov 4, 2013)

TAPnRACK said:


> Jason,
> 
> Sounds like you had a bad experience which is unfortunate.


Thankfully, as an NRA Instructor myself, and one with over a decade if teaching experience, I was able to kind of just observe things and remove myself from the role of a student. Additionally, as a former serviceman, I understand something of the military style of "training" (if you can call it that) - the one where you tear people down and rebuild them in the image of a soldier.



> All the experience or knowledge won't make a good instructor if they can't convey knowledge so the student understands the information and apply it... and I agree not every person who has served in the military or is a LEO is automatically a qualified instructor.... teaching takes a lot of work and not everyone is able to do it effectively. If my previous post came off that way I apologize.


No apologies required (though apologies from me if you thought my comment was directed at you specifically, it was not intended that way). My follow up was just to point out that in finding an instructor one needs to find someone with both firearms experience AND teaching experience.

(Is it time for a group hug yet? LOL)


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Lol, no need... I have thick skin. 

Sometimes the writen word suggests something other than the actual thought or intent of the author. Part of online forums I guess.


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