# Remington Model 11 shotgun question



## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

I know this is a Handgun Forum! ...... But there are so many knowledgeable people here, and there IS this section for long guns!! .....so I figured I'd give this a try:

Been looking at a buddy's Remington Model 11 12 ga, 18" bbl, and wanted to get some opinions from you experts. It seems to be a WWII era shotgun (from the preliminary web research I've done) since it has a serial number of B41xxx. But nowhere on it does it say "Remington", only has "Browning" on the left side of the receiver. The barrel says "Browning Arms Co St. Louis MO" on the top, and has some proof marks on the left side (near the chamber end): what looks like a heart, and to the right of that, the initials BP contained within an oval. The barrel has a four digit serial number on the right side, near the chamber end; this serial number does not match in any way to the receiver serial number. The gun has the fancy scroll work on both sides of the receiver, and has what appears to be some sort of bead blast finish on the rounded portion of the top of the receiver. It is in overall very good (maybe VG+) condition, both wood and finish, and does not appear to have had any re-finishing done (although the bead blasted top of the receiver makes me wonder......) Anyway, he wants $500 for it. Any of you experts care to share your thoughts on this gun, as described?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I believe the shotgun is an "American Browning Auto-5", built by Remington between 1940-47, with Browning markings with a magazine cut off. It is actually a modified Model 11, with a separate SN range with either "A", "B" or "C" as a SN prefix:
A5000-A19450 (16ga) 
B5000-B43129 (12ga)
C5000-C16152 (20ga) 

From the Blue Book of Gun Values: 

American Browning Auto-5 - 12, 16, or 20 gauge, Remington produced a model of the Auto-5, very similar to the Remington model 11, except with Browning logo, magazine cut-off, and different engraving, over 38,000 mfg. in 12 gauge, serial number range B5000 - B43129, over 14,000 in 16 gauge, serial number range A5000 - A19450, and 11,000 in 20 gauge, serial number range C5000 - C16,152, stocks have Remington style round knob pistol grip. Mfg. from 1940 to 1949.


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## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

Yes, that all makes sense. What do you think about those proof marks? Are those typical for a commercial gun? Based on those serial number ranges, I'm guessing this particular gun was a bit post-WWII production.


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## Philco (Apr 17, 2012)

I'd love to own it.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

mswmsw said:


> What do you think about those proof marks? Are those typical for a commercial gun?


The proof marks are typical for an "American Browning" made by Remington during this time period. I believe all "American Brownings" carry those identical proof marks. "Barrel says "Browning Arms Co St. Louis MO" on the top, and has some proof marks on the left side (near the chamber end): what looks like a heart, and to the right of that, the initials BP contained within an oval." During World War II, civilian firearms production ceased at FN in Belgium due to it's occupation by Nazi Germany. Therefore, Browning turned to Remington Arms in the US to produce Auto-5s under the Browning name.


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## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

Denner, your info matches what I've read elsewhere. However, that other info (that I've read) also states that the bbl's were marked "Remington". So what puzzles me is to have a Browning marked bbl on it. This could easily be explained if it was a mis-matched bbl swapped onto it at some later time (the serial number on the bbl does not match the gun). But if the proof marks are common Remington proof marks of the period, would they Remington) have commonly proofed and used Browning manufactured and marked bbl's on their "American (Remington produced) Browning A5's", especially one not serialized to the receiver?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

mswmsw said:


> Denner, your info matches what I've read elsewhere. However, that other info (that I've read) also states that the bbl's were marked "Remington". So what puzzles me is to have a Browning marked bbl on it. This could easily be explained if it was a mis-matched bbl swapped onto it at some later time (the serial number on the bbl does not match the gun). But if the proof marks are common Remington proof marks of the period, would they Remington) have commonly proofed and used Browning manufactured and marked bbl's on their "American (Remington produced) Browning A5's", especially one not serialized to the receiver?


A little caveat: I'm no expert, but I research very well. I don't have comment on your other info and I don't know of any unaltered "American Browning" with Remington barrels. To the contrary, if it's an original unaltered "American Browning" made for Browning by Remington there would be no Remington proof marks on the receiver nor barrel as your sample suggests. You have a properly marked Browning barrel on an "American Browning" reciever.

I don't know or have explanation for possible mis-matched serial numbers from reciever to barrel on "American Brownings." If I were to speculate, and it was the case that a Remington barrel was on an "American Browning" the original barrel would have been removed by someone other than Remington at date of manufacture and replaced with a Remington barrel if it could be done. If you can post a photo of an "American Browning" with a Remington marked barrel, I'd like to see it. However I did come across this little tid-bit, and whether it's true or not: Remington date coded some of the shotguns with their date codes . Look on the right side of the barrel next to the receiver for a stamp such as RR or whatever?


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## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

Here's a couple pics of the left and right side of the bbl near the receiver. On the left side, just to the right of the heart and the BP within an oval, there is almost what looks like a very faint capital R inside a circle. On the right side, it looks like upside down serial numbers 1137. What do you think?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

mswmsw said:


> Here's a couple pics of the left and right side of the bbl near the receiver. On the left side, just to the right of the heart and the BP within an oval, there is almost what looks like a very faint capital R inside a circle. On the right side, it looks like upside down serial numbers 1137. What do you think?


Well, I think it's an authentic American Browning Auto-5 Shotgun and barrel manufactured by Remington under license from Browning stamped "Browning Arms Co St. Louis MO" on the top, and proof marks on the left side (near the chamber end): what looks like a heart, and to the right of that the initials BP contained within an oval." I believe it if were a Remington M-11 barrel manufactured by Remington for Remington shotguns(in which both were produced at the same time) would denote manufactured by the Remington Arms Company not Browning Arms Co St. Louis MO and with those markings described above.

The very faint capital R inside the circle on the right side with those numbers are perhaps a Remington stamped date code( not a serial number that would match the reciever), which I believe you can find from Remington to determine the date of manufacture. In other words, if you believe it's a swapped out Remington Licensed Barrel on a American Browning Auto-5 Shotgun reciever, I would believe that to be incorrect. If it is a swapped out barrel it would be from another American Browning Auto-5 Shotgun and I'd be willing to bet the farm on that one. I stand corrected on the (R) marking/stamp as noted in my previous post as perhaps some American Browning Auto-5 Shotguns would have that Remington stamp to denote the manufacture date under a Remington code.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Remington Dates of Manufacture

Is it perhaps L(1942?) E(Oct) TT(1948)? but 1948, how could that be I wonder? As Remington states unlike Remington manufactured barrels for rifles, using these barrel codes to date a shotgun is somewhat unreliable, as shotgun barrels are often interchanged at random. One needs to be sure that the barrel is original to the gun before trusting the Barrel Code listing, above.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

$500.00 seems a bit high to me. Does it have a fixed choke or tubes?


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## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

denner said:


> Remington Dates of Manufacture
> 
> Is it perhaps L(1942?) E(Oct) TT(1948)? but 1948, how could that be I wonder?


Does sort of look like a date code, now that you mention it. But is it 1942 or 1948? I don't think Remington made American Browning A5's in 1948, did they? I think I read they stopped in 1947?


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## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

shootbrownelk said:


> $500.00 seems a bit high to me. Does it have a fixed choke or tubes?


18" riot gun, no choke.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

Somebody cut the barrel to 18" or is it a slug barrel? This gun is starting to sound like a mongrel. I have 4 Browning A-5's. I have only seen a couple with slug barrels starting in the 70's. Sounds like a $250-$300 gun to me. Have you shot it ?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

mswmsw said:


> Does sort of look like a date code, now that you mention it. But is it 1942 or 1948? I don't think Remington made American Browning A5's in 1948, did they? I think I read they stopped in 1947?


I'm stumped, I do believe it's a Remington date code, and I 'm fairly certain I'm seeing an "E" and "T" "T" and that first marking less certain but perhaps an "L"? If I'm seeing it from left to right. You may want to post your pics on the Remington forum and ask for assistance?


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## mswmsw (Jan 18, 2015)

Thank you all for your help and input. Yup, maybe I'll give the Remington forum a try.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

mswmsw said:


> Thank you all for your help and input. Yup, maybe I'll give the Remington forum a try.


Sounds good, give us an update with what you find out.


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