# Shoot/No Shoot



## Spazz (May 3, 2009)

Was pondering the idea of someone robbing me at gun/knifepoint. What should I do as a CCW carrier? I obviously would rather give up my wallet and have the incident over at that, but having been mugged before when I was younger, what if the guy wants more? Luckily when I was mugged there was no weapon involved but say there is and the guy wants to follow me home? Or has a friend or two? What should I do if they want more after my wallet? 

I've seen advertisement video clips for training classes where they teach the student to react and fire at the first sign of a weapon...to me this seems nightmarish in court. Is there a simple answer to this?


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## Waffen (Feb 8, 2006)

Spazz said:


> . Is there a simple answer to this?


I think the answer is, there is no simple answer. It depends on how prepared you are at the moment, how far away you are from the bad guy? Do you have enough time to draw and shoot without being knifed/shot first? If you do shoot and miss will you hit an innocent?

Lots of possibilities but no clear cut answer to your question.

JMO

W


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

If someone has a knife or gun on me (threatening me with deadly force) I fully believe they will follow through with it regardless if I comply or not. Therefore, I will do my best to respond with equal force.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

If they have produced a weapon and are threatening I will attempt to use greater force faster than they use theirs.

If they have a club I have a gun, if they have a knife I have a gun, if they have a gun I hope to be faster.

I won't take a beating either. :numbchuck:

You don't play "FAIR" in this activity you play to win and live.

Stay safe

tumbleweed


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

Here in NY, you can not use deadly force unless you are under imminent threat of deadly force. That means you can't shoot unless they are trying to kill you.

No matter how justified you are, if you ever have to shoot some one in that kind of situation, it will likely cost you everything you've ever worked for trying to defend yourself against prosecution and the inevitable lawsuits from the "victim's" family. That's something to think about. :watching:


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

kev74 said:


> Here in NY, you can not use deadly force unless you are under imminent threat of deadly force. That means you can't shoot unless they are trying to kill you.
> 
> No matter how justified you are, if you ever have to shoot some one in that kind of situation, it will likely cost you everything you've ever worked for trying to defend yourself against prosecution and the inevitable lawsuits from the "victim's" family. That's something to think about. :watching:


Or you could just let them take your wallet, then stab you in the guts because they're too close for you to do anything about it then. All I can say is, if someone has a weapon while in the commission of a crime against me and mine... I DEFINATELY would feel as if I am under thread of deadly force. I hope and pray the situation never arises for anyone here, but I can tell you that when your in a situation like that, your priorities change... A LOT. If they or their family sues me, at least I'll still be alive to be worried about it.

It's a judgement call for each person, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let someone knife/beat/shoot me, then do who knows what kinds of horrible things to my wife.

Zhur


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Spazz said:


> Was pondering the idea of someone robbing me at gun/knifepoint. What should I do as a CCW carrier? I obviously would rather give up my wallet and have the incident over at that, but having been mugged before when I was younger, what if the guy wants more?


If you have been mugged before, you have more experience, already, than most of us. What would you have done then, had you been armed, and what would the consequences have likely been?

Nobody knows for sure what they will do, but if you carry a gun, you better have some plan, and you better know where you draw the line, as for what you will let someone do to you.

For me, once I have made the decision to draw my gun, the 'die is cast,' pretty much. The only thing that will prevent me from firing into my attacker is an immediate surrender or retreat. If I'm unsure as to whether someone means me harm, I probably won't draw. I fully understand that this decision may cause me to get beat up, or worse, but that's the chance I was taking, before I started packing, so I'm no worse off. And I might be better off, because I might still get an opportunity to draw and fire, before the BG finishes me off.

My approach may be wrong, but it is what I can live with, personally, and it takes a lot of indecision out of the equation for me. I'm a large man, and I don't rattle easily, so a mugger is probably going to pass over me, in his 'victim selection process,' but if he doesn't, he's not likely to try bluffing me, or taking me without a weapon, so I'm betting that his intentions will become known to me quickly.

To me, having a lethal weapon changes nothing in the way I would react to any of the experiences that I have already had. The weapon is for that one time when I know that I, or someone I want to protect, is about to be seriously harmed.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

zhurdan said:


> If they or their family sues me, at least I'll still be alive to be worried about it.


:smt023:smt023


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## ViolentJ (Feb 10, 2009)

This stuff should have all been covered in your concealed carry class. If it wasn't then I am sorry you got jipped. Not sure about where you live, but here in New Mexico, especially in the common sense rural area where I live according to my course instructors (Police officers and Detectives) it's all about what you can articulate at the time. If you can get the feeling across to the police and court that you believed that you were in serious danger of losing your life and you believed the attacker had the motive and capability then you will be good to go criminally and usually in the civil case(s) that will surely follow. According to my instructors the civil cases most times go no where if there is no conviction (not always, ie. OJ Simpson). 

I too have been mugged when I was younger, several times, when I lived in Harlem and Souoth Bronx (long story). As I was a law biding citizen, too young to have a handgun permit and living in the pinko NYC I was obviously not armed. Good for the scum bags and bad for me. Luckily all I ever got was a stout butt kicking. Honestly man, biggest thing is deciding right here and now if you are willing to use deadly force and when. If you aren't then you're better off to hang the side arm up so as to not arm the thug. A life and death (or potentially deadly) situation is no time for indecision. 

Another big thing that a lot of people don't throw into the equation is the mental or emotional repricussions. I know we are all supposed to be hard core tuff guys etc. but I am telling you that even if you are completely justified there will not be a day that goes by in your life that you aren't haunted by that ghost. Everyday I think of the families sitting down to dinner without a father, mothers without sons, children with no father or where my errant rounds impacted, becuse of the decisions I made to engage and neutralize hostile targets in Iraq. I am NOT saying I regret it or would do things any different because I wouldn't and I was totally justified in what I did because they were terrorists and meant to kill me or any other American they could, here or there. All I am saying is that you need to think about that BEFORE you get into that situation. You don't know if it will be on your way to work tmw. or 30 years from now, or never. Doesn't matter, a decision must be made. Sorry I rambled a bit there, just feel that's an important point.


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## Spazz (May 3, 2009)

Thanks for the responses, insightful. Unfortunately every firearms class I've been to has been rather vague on the line to draw where you can clearly say your life was in serious danger. If I ever shoot someone it will be because there was no alternative and it was live or die. But I'm always worried about the prosecution. However in my case the old saying of "rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" holds true.


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## clanger (Jan 27, 2009)

*...in Ca.*

Things one needs to consider:

*Force on Force.

Was the amount of force excessive? Excessive force can result is criminal prosecution. 
If you are in a fight, in most cases, fists do not justify the taking of a life unless it can be proven that such retaliation prevented great bodily harm or death.

*What would a 'reasonable person' do in similar circumstances.

I look at it as "what can I prove?"

*If you pull a gun, and the threat backs down, you cannot shoot them.

Period. End of story there. Everyone goes home (or jail).

*What if I pull my gun, and so does he, then so does someone else?

I call this using discretion. Just 'cause there's a threat, don't mean I need to go to a firearm everytime. Avoid escalation.

*Murder, mayhem, rape and robbery are considered examples of 'forcible and life threatening crimes' that one can justifiably use lethal force on.

You now have the green light to Light 'em Up.

*

I can only carry concealed legally in L.A. on my property. And I do. Everyday. 
If I produced a firearm, concealed or being transported and used it accordingly I'd be in the right, in either case.

The fact one saves a life trumps the fact one had a firearm in violation of a misdemeanor.

Same is the reason for a small revolver. 
It's gonna be VERY CQB when it happens. 
I don't need an auto jamming or coming out of battery while attempting to press-fire while going to the ground.

I also won't use a handgun for stand off on the street. I'll bail first or wait for up close shots, but the first thing I do is *find cover *(use your environment to your advantage).

Yes, I've been beaten, robbed and shot at (two 9mm holes in my driveway from some gang bangers last time- crapy shots :anim_lol. The few bucks and teeth I've lost aint worth going to jail over (been there too and it sucks), or losing my roller and I walked home each time.

Try and wrap me up or put me in a sleeper and there's the rub. That's when a 'burner' is indispensable.


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