# Point Blank Range



## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

I hear this term being used incorrectly all the time,like clip and magazine.It it used all the time to describe up close,in your face distances for someone being shot,stabbed,etc.

Point blank range has no set distance,it's dependant on external ballistics of that particular projectile,be it a bullet,arrow,thrown knife or a rock.

When a bullet leaves a barrel it is pointing upward,either by the position of the sights or muzzle rise from recoil.Gravity is always at work so from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle it's dropping to the ground.To correct for that the bore is pointing up when the bullet leaves.At 10 to 15ft the bullet raises above the line of sight and climbs to it's highest point of it's arc,called the midrange trajectory.From that point it heads back to the ground and passes the line of sight again which is your sight's zero.From there it continues to the ground.Adjusting the arc of the bullet is where you get to adjust the distance your sights are zeroed in for a particular load.Just like throwing a baseball over home plate.This is external ballistics in short,speed,ballistic coefficient and energy are involved too.

Point blank range changes not only by external ballistics of the projectile used but by the target,the target being the bigger picture.

PBR is the distance you can put your sights on the center of the target and hit in the kill zone above and below the target.A deer has a kill zone of 8" so we'll use this as a base.If you put the sights in the middle of that 8",you have +/- 4" for a good hit.That means your midrange trajectory will be 4" high,you're dead on and when the bullet drops 4" you now have your PBR.In a rifle this is well beyond in your face and more like 150yds or more,dependant on caliber,bullet choice-external ballistics.

Change your target,bullet weight,velocity,or caliber,your PBR changes.A squirrel has a short PBR with a 22,an elk has a long PBR with a 300mag.

I've heard this term lately used a lot (not so much here in a bit) and thought it would be nice to clarify it for the newbies.This one for some reason bothers me more than the clip/mag issue,and that doesn't bother me as bad as others,but proper terminology is always nice.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I've never really fully understood what point blank range, or just point blank, was since like you stated, one never hears of any specific distance. So I have always assumed that point blank is close enough to leave burnt powder residue on the clothes or skin of someone. Like so many other terms, such as "knock down power" and their like, point blank has always seemed to me to be a term coined by non-gun people or at least those not very intimate with firearms and ammunition. Perhaps I'm wrong with this.

BTW, when a bullet has leaves a barrel there is virtually no recoil going on. Yes an almost imperceptible amount has occurred but it is almost never evident to the naked eye in slow motion film. With semi-auto pistols, the bullet is long gone before the slide begins its rearward travel.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

The PBR is kind of like the speed of sound for super or subsonic,it can have a determined value but it depends on many factors.

I disagree with the last statement,there was a very long discussion on that topic months ago by some people that knew more about internal ballistics than I.I also learned a few things I was always unclear of until then.Recoil starts almost immediately.Using a short recoil locked breech as in a 1911,when the bullet leaves the case Newton's law is at work,equal and opposite reactions.Peak pressure is normally had when the bullet is only an inch or so into the barrel,and this is why the slide and barrel are recoiling .100" before unlocking until the bullet leaves and pressure drops to a safe level to open.If there was ne recoil the slide could not start recoiling.In Blowback guns the heavy spring delays opening long enough,but I've seen them open soon.

The max pressure so soon in the barrel is what I learned,and clarified breechface erosion,sooty cases,and the improperly termed detonation that happens with certain powders like 296 and H110.

In erosion and sooty cases,the primer or case don't expand quickly enough to seal due to a light load,so either gas escapes the primer and causes erosion or the case doesn't expand fast enough causing blowby and sooty cases and chamber.A faster powder or heavier load will get peak pressure up faster to perform as intended.

Using light loads of 296 and getting dangerous pressures is a weird phenomenon,I forget the technical term but everyone says detonation which it isn't.What the jist is,is that a light load only partially ignites and pops the bullet into the leade or rifling with such low pressure the bullet slows or actually stalls with the resistance.Then the charge fully ignites and the pressure builds having to restart and propel the bullet.Similar to booting one behind a squib but the pressure is hell because you're right at the chamber with the obstruction and the pressure is still building.With a normal squib the pressure is built and then hits resistance,causing a barrel bulge down in the barrel.I saw a case of this with a revolver long ago,there was more damage than a doublecharge would have done.This is the reason H110 and 296 have the warnings about adhering to their data or it can get dangerous,unlike other powders.Some powders you can load over max without a problem,and some you can throw a few sprinkles in to drive a soft slug out the muzzle to collect for slugging the bore instead of driving it down the bore manually.Not with these powders though.Interesting stuff,and there's still a lot I don't know.

I forgot,in that discussion slow motion film came up,and most is too slow.One was done with an extremely high frames per minute,like 1000,and you could see recoil begin milliseconds after the hammer drops.The slide and barrel are recoiling,the bullet leaves and the barrel unlocks while the slide continues it's cycle during muzzle flip.I believe the whole conversation started over how a primer only squib could cycle the action so one got booted behind it.I'm not sure that was ever answered but there was some very good internal ballistics discussed throughout it.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

You can thank Hollywood for the term, "point blank range". You can also thank them for the 1000rd. magazines in semi-auto pistols and machine guns, and suppressors on revolvers. 

We can also thank them to some degree, for the demise of this great nation, by putting profit above all else.


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

A little bit off track, I guess, but the wildest concept (fact?) that I've heard is that a bullet is going to take exactly the same amount of time to hit the ground whether it's been fired or been dropped. Supposedly, if it were possible to drop a bullet from a point even with the muzzle at precisely the same instant that a twin bullet exited the muzzle (the barrel being exactly level) they would both hit the ground at the same time. The one which had been fired would just be further away. Sounds crazy, but they say that it's a fact.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Hurryin' Hoosier said:


> A little bit off track, I guess, but the wildest concept (fact?) that I've heard is that a bullet is going to take exactly the same amount of time to hit the ground whether it's been fired or been dropped. Supposedly, if it were possible to drop a bullet from a point even with the muzzle at precisely the same instant that a twin bullet exited the muzzle (the barrel being exactly level) they would both hit the ground at the same time. The one which had been fired would just be further away. Sounds crazy, but they say that it's a fact.


I'm not a scientist, but I have spent a couple of nights at a Holiday Inn Express.

So.....let me get this straight. If we were to go to the roof top, of let's say, a 20 story building, and we pointed a handgun facing down towards the ground, and someone alongside us, was going to hold a bullet in his hand and drop it at the same time the handgun was fired, both bullets would hit the ground at the same time?

Is that what is being claimed? If so, I'm calling BS. :smt075

I'm only human and I'm sure that I've been wrong at least once or twice in my life, but if I was, I can't recall the time or incident. :smt083


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> If we were to go to the roof top, of let's say, a 20 story building, and we pointed a handgun facing down towards the ground, and someone alongside us, was going to hold a bullet in his hand and drop it at the same time the handgun was fired, both bullets would hit the ground at the same time?
> 
> Is that what is being claimed?


No, that's not what's being claimed. _Please re-read_. The theory involves a barrel being pointed _perfectly level_, and nothing was said about a 20-story building. Altitude would have nothing to do with it, other than the time required to hit the ground. Supposedly, gravity would effect both bullets equally, regardless of forward momentum or lack thereof.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Hurryin' Hoosier said:


> No, that's not what's being claimed. _Please re-read_. The theory involves a barrel being pointed _perfectly level_, and nothing was said about a 20-story building. Altitude would have nothing to do with it, other than the time required to hit the ground. Supposedly, gravity would effect both bullets equally, regardless of forward momentum or lack thereof.


Okay, I re-read what you said. I took my time and now have a better understanding.

That having been said, and the fact that I am retired, I can walk away from this discussion with no guilt and no worse for wear. :smt1099


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> You can thank Hollywood for the term, "point blank range".


Well, not necessarily, PBR has been with us for centuries being a term first used by the French for the effect of cannon ball trajectory and line of sight. Also maximum MPBR is often used to determine what a round can do before having to compensate for loss of trajectory. Rex is right that the term is often misused to denote shot at extremely close range in which I also have used it's term. But in essence if something is shot at PBR the shooter need not to compensate for bullet drop which technically would be an accurate statement. I guess when we Zero are hunting rifles, Proper Zero, PBR and MPBR would become synonymous I suppose.:snipe:


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

Since the 6 people already involved in this discussion have an aggregate 4937 posts, I guess saying "Welcome to the forum, newbie!," would be somewhat superfluous.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

high pockets said:


> Since the 6 people already involved in this discussion have an aggregate 4937 posts, I guess saying "Welcome to the forum, newbie!," would be somewhat superfluous.


Oh great.....now I have to go find out what superfluous means. :smt086


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> Oh great.....now I have to go find out what superfluous means. :smt086


Not a problem. I'm retired, too. I'll take this one! :smt002


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Hurryin' Hoosier said:


> No, that's not what's being claimed. _Please re-read_. The theory involves a barrel being pointed _perfectly level_, and nothing was said about a 20-story building. Altitude would have nothing to do with it, other than the time required to hit the ground. Supposedly, gravity would effect both bullets equally, regardless of forward momentum or lack thereof.


By excluding the very minimal curvature of the earth and disregarding the sights or scope ( the barrel is bubble level ) , you are corect. The bullet, being round and not airplane shaped, has no induced lift.


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

TurboHonda said:


> By excluding the very minimal curvature of the earth and disregarding the sights or scope ( the barrel is bubble level ) , you are corect. The bullet, being round and not airplane shaped, has no induced lift.


That's what they say, whoever "they" are. It took me a while to get my head around it, but I guess it's true.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

This is going a different direction but let it roll. :watching:


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

denner said:


> Well, not necessarily, PBR has been with us for centuries being a term first used by the French for the effect of cannon ball trajectory and line of sight. Also maximum MPBR is often used to determine what a round can do before having to compensate for loss of trajectory. Rex is right that the term is often misused to denote shot at extremely close range in which I also have used it's term. But in essence if something is shot at PBR the shooter need not to compensate for bullet drop which technically would be an accurate statement. I guess when we Zero are hunting rifles, Proper Zero, PBR and MPBR would become synonymous I suppose.:snipe:


Any time the French get involved, things tend to get misconstrued.

That and the fact, they're willing to raise a white flag at the first hint of danger. :anim_lol:


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Any time the French get involved, things tend to get misconstrued.
> 
> That and the fact, they're willing to raise a white flag at the first hint of danger. :anim_lol:


 Just for fun, go to google and type in French Military Victories and push the I'm feeling lucky button.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Popcornsmilie That's a bottle of Bud light,Im watching my weight.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> Any time the French get involved, things tend to get misconstrued.
> 
> That and the fact, they're willing to raise a white flag at the first hint of danger. :anim_lol:


OUI, OUI, Monsieur


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

In external ballistics, point-blank range is the distance between a firearm and a target of a given size such that the bullet in flight is expected to strike the target * without adjusting the elevation of the firearm.
*
Point-blank range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

Cait43 said:


> In external ballistics, point-blank range is the distance between a firearm and a target of a given size such that the bullet in flight is expected to strike the target * without adjusting the elevation of the firearm.
> *
> Point-blank range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Makes sense to me. Leinies and cheese curds all around!


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