# Purchasing First Rifle - Looking for Advice



## Marcus99

Hey Guys,

I just got a new job that pays better than the last, and judging from the hours I'll be working I figure I can make roughly around $400 in a month, maybe a bit more. Anyhow, I'm looking to buy a rifle with that money, but I don't know much about rifles. I'd sooner get a handgun but I can't legally take it to the range so there's no point in getting another handgun. 

Now, I have one rifle but It's a plinkin' rifle (.22) and I didn't purchase it. I also already have four of my six firearms chambered for .22 anyway, so I'm not looking for another one. I'm looking for a good quality, new, larger caliber rifle for target practice and maybe hunting further down the road, but mostly target practice and working on my accuracy. Maybe a Winchester or Remington? I'm thinking bolt-action but I suppose a semi-auto would be alright (those tend to be more $, correct me if I'm wrong). M4 or that new Sig 5.56 rifle would be real nice but those are pricey from what I gather. 

So I'm thinking a Winchester or Remington, bolt-action and larger caliber for somewhere in the $400-$750 price range (please tell me if that's not reasonable). Any help you could offer or advice would be much appreciated. 

Thanks Guys,
Marcus

P.S. Judging from what I'll make at work I'm hoping to have this at latest by late June so I can enjoy using it during the summer. I think that's a reasonable time frame to aim for.


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## kev74

How about a shotgun? You can shoot at moving targets (skeet) at the range, make holes in paper with either slugs or shot, and its good for home defense if thats what you're looking for. Also good for hunting....


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## PanaDP

If it were me, I would get a ruger or remington bolt action rifle in 30-06 or .308.

They'll be great hunting rifles and fun to target shoot out to several hundred yards.


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## Todd

Remington 700 is going to my my choice when I get a bolt action eventually. Probably in .308.

An AR type rifle is definitely beyond what you want to spend, and also a big no-no there in M*ass*achusetts. Yet another reason why I'll never move back there, I couldn't bear to part with mine.


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## 220combat

I'm a big fan of the .270WIN You can get a wide range of loads, cheaper ammo than a .30-06, and is very flat shooting. More than capable for most North American game. Also, recoil is lighter than most of the 30's. It is basically a necked down .30-06 case


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## Mike Barham

In that price range, I'd look very closely at a Savage bolt gun in .308 or .30-06.

I do not know of any factory .270 ammo that is less expensive than the surplus .30-06 sold by the CMP.


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## 220combat

You're right Mike, I am only considering factory new ammo, not surplus.


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## JeffWard

I own a Ruger M77, but I've also owned Remingtons in the past, in both 308 and 30-06, and 243. Both are great rifles. Do your research on ammo choices, and down the road hunting expectations.

30-06 is nasty for extended range work, but will take virtually anything in the Mainland US. 308 is plenty for most everything, and can go hot, or mild, depending on the load. Some of the most accurate guns on earth are in 308. 243 is great for varmint shooting and lighter game, deer, antelope, etc... Under 200lb.

Price your ammo. Test a few if you can, and shop away. Under $750 is a good number. Under $400 will get you junk... Get a good used (under-used) Ruger or Remington, and you'll be very happy, and it will last you for ever.

PS... I got my Ruger from my Mom!!! It/she has taken 6 whitetail deer, and one 56" North Cape Caribou... with 8 total shots. She needed 2 on one of the deer. The first one through the lungs didn't drop it... Never knew it was dead in its tracks. The second shot took the left shoulder. It does not miss... Either that, or Mom does not miss... LOL

JeffWard


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## Marcus99

Todd said:


> Remington 700 is going to my my choice when I get a bolt action eventually. Probably in .308.


I think we're on the same page Todd. I've been looking at Remington's and the 700 that you're talking about is a bit beyond what I want to spend, but the 715 ($350), 770 ($450) and the 798 ($650). I'm liking the 770 because it doesn't seem too expensive and from what I've read on the Internet it's a solid and good rifle. Judging from my work schedule I could afford it by the end of May or the beginning of June, so I could have it for the summer too.

How is Remington? I know that they're an old, established company, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they make good rifles today. Does the 770 Remington look good, and what caliber would you recommend of what they offer (243, 270 and 308 Win as well as the .30x06 and a few other oddball rounds)?

Please keep in mind that I haven't been shooting nearly as long as many of you have, I've only got six years under my belt while some of you guys seem to have decades. I don't need something of top-notch quality, just something that's good quality and I can have fun with until I get older and finish up with college and can afford some of what you guys are buying. I'm also looking for a caliber that's common and preferably one that they sell at Walmart so I don't have to spend a lot, although I do understand that typical rifle ammo is pricey (the .30x06 seems to fit this bill).

Thank you very much guys, I appreciate this help,
Marcus


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## KingAirDriver

Sucks you've got the whole MA-state issue to deal with, otherwise... Don't let an AR price tag disappoint you. If you want one, have you thought about building one? You could easily build one from a kit for about $600 or less. Sounds like these guys have you squared away with other rifles, but thought I'd throw my $.02 out there.  Building an AR from a kit is incredibly easy, and you don't have to be anywhere near a mechanical genius or anything to do it! I built mine, so I'm proof of that, LOL. (And all you'd assemble is the lower, the upper comes assembled in a kit.) Let me know if you'd want to learn more...I'll point you in the right direction. :smt023


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## Liko81

I think a Remington 700 SPS, somewhere between .243Win and .30-06, would fit the bill as a good centerfire rifle, and they run about $475-$550 depending on the store. You will also need to figure in the price of a scope; if you follow conventional wisdom and put a scope of equal cost to the rifle on, you're talking more like a grand for a new rifle, but you can probably make due with a $150-$200 scope, putting the price at about $700.

As far as caliber, it all depends on what you want to shoot. .243 is kinda wimpy for big bucks or other large trophy game (though better then the .223), but there's probably nothing better for taking down 'yotes at distance without pounding your shoulder, and a clean heart or head shot will take a deer if you don't mind a little walking (the deer will still bolt on anything other than a CNS shot, and the round will probably not do enough bone/joint damage to cripple).

Slightly stronger at .270 is what I would bring if I expected to take a 200-300 yard shot. It's a good distance round, with a higher muzzle than most other common rounds except .223 and better retention of velocity and energy than any other round (meaning it has the flattest trajectory of any of the above). Ballistics are generally comparable to the .308 in velocity and energy; the 30-06 has better energy over the entire flight path. Both of these bullets have better terminal ballistics than the .270 however.

.308 is a big bullet, and very common so prices are reasonable. Like I said, it's similar in performance to the .270, with lower velocity but practically the same energy curve, but it's a much bigger bullet so terminal ballistics will be different. It's a very good deer bullet for most situations, meant to make a big hole and do a lot of other damage besides and certainly accurate enough up to 150 yards, though it has the most drop of any of these rounds.

30-06 is the granddaddy. Big bullet + high muzzle velocity means one hell of a kick, but it's got the most foot-pounds of any bullet here. It's what you take if you want that deer to drop where it stands, or if you're hunting anything bigger than a whitetail.


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## Todd

KingAirDriver said:


> Don't let an AR price tag disappoint you. If you want one, have you thought about building one? You could easily build one from a kit for about $600


Even if price wasn't an issue, he can't have an AR until he gets out of that state. It's kind of a moot point unless his parents move or he finds a place to keep one out of state.


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## Mike Barham

I can't believe these comments about how the .30-06 kicks so hard. It might kick a little more than is desirable for a raw beginner, but it's not like it's a super magnum or something, especially in the typical over-scoped sporter that probably weighs 8.5-9.0 pounds loaded.

Last time I was at the range, I shot about 40 full-charge rounds (most of it from the bench) though my Steyr Scout, a 7-pound .308 that kicks way more than a heavier .30-06. I'm not a big guy or anything, and I was only wearing a light t-shirt, but I was totally fine and didn't walk away bruised or flinching.

Good thing our great grandfathers didn't know a .30-06 was such a hurter when they took their 1903 Springfields to war!

Ballistic differences between .308 and .30-06 are pretty minimal. I'd just buy the one that shot cheaper ammo (I have no objections to surplus as practice ammo). Unfortunately, prices have been fluctuating a lot lately.


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## submoa

You really can't go terribly wrong with a Remington 700. The Remington 700 is a proven design and forms the basis of 7.62x51 (aka .308Win) sniper rifiles in use by USMC M40A3 (short action) and M24 SWS used by US Army and IDF (long action.. convertible to .300WinMag).

One of the advantages of a rifle design that has been in continuous production for a number of years is the wealth of knowledge available from owners and users for reliability testimony and tweaks... plus availability of options in the aftermarket.

IE. you can find a good basic 700 at a reasonable price... and frankenstein it to where you need/want later.


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## Marcus99

Whew, so much Info.

Regarding a semi-auto rifle, that isn't really something I want since I already have five semi-automatic firearms and I'd like something different. I've used a few different bolt-action rifles down at the range and I really liked them. The semi-auto's that I saw looked real mean and I like them, but as already stated they are too mean for MA. I could keep them up in NH but even so. I think when I start making a bit more money and invest more time into the sport I'll take a closer look at them.

Regarding the Remingto 770 and scope, I wasn't aware of the fact that they came separately from Remington. I thought it was a bit of a deal to drop $450 and get all that, haha. So I'm looking at $450 for the rifle and about $300 for a good scope? I could certainly use dry sights for a while though, I wouldn't mind, but is the Remington 770 a rifle that you really are supposed to use a scope on?

And regarding the caliber, I picked the .30x06 out as a desired one because from what I've read it's proven, durable and pretty accurate. Like I said, I don't know if I'll be using this rifle to hunt or on a longer range some point in the future, so I'd like something that's got a flat trajectory and has some stopping power. I'm not looking for a small bullet, a big, fast one is what I'm looking for, and I don't mind shelling out the money for a box of 20 of them every so often. The info you provided Liko is great, thank you.

Thank a lot guys, please keep the advice rolling in as I'm hoping to get moving on this within the next month or so.

EDIT: I'm looking at the Remington website for the 770 and it looks like it comes with the scope (http://www.remington.com/pdfs/m770_brochure.pdf). It even says its premounted, but I figure that Remington could be wording the ad tricky. It looks like it's ready-to-go out of the box, which is nice for me since I know practically nothing about Rifles, but I'm willing to be that you guys would look down on a out of the box mentality the way I look down on out of the box computers (I build my own)


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## Liko81

Marcus99 said:


> Regarding the Remington 700 and scope, I wasn't aware of the fact that they came separately from Remington. I thought it was a bit of a deal to drop $450 and get all that, haha. So I'm looking at $450 for the rifle and about $300 for a good scope? I could certainly use dry sights for a while though, I wouldn't mind, but is the Remington 770 a rifle that you really are supposed to use a scope on?
> 
> EDIT: I'm looking at the Remington website for the 770 and it looks like it comes with the scope (http://www.remington.com/pdfs/m770_brochure.pdf). It even says its premounted, but I figure that Remington could be wording the ad tricky. It looks like it's ready-to-go out of the box, which is nice for me since I know practically nothing about Rifles, but I'm willing to be that you guys would look down on a out of the box mentality the way I look down on out of the box computers (I build my own)


Well, as with anything, what you get is dependent on the model, and on the price you pay. A Remington 700 SPS (Special Purpose Synthetic) comes scopeless and sightless, but drilled and tapped for any scope system, for about $475. And yes, a Remington 700 isn't complete without a good scope; the SPS at least does not have iron sights, and if you're sighting on a target the size of a deer's heart at 100 yards, you will want magnification of and a precise sighting on your target.

The 700 more accurately describes the action than the rifle; similar to Ruger's M77 or other related rifles, you can get that rifle chambered in any centerfire caliber short of .50BMG, in either wood or synthetic stocks, stainless or powdercoat, scoped or just drilled and tapped. On top of that, 700s are the 10/22 of centerfire rifles; apart from the receiver, every part of the weapon can be swapped for a variety of aftermarket upgrades, and every gunsmith worth his salt knows how to work on a 700. However, you get what you pay for; a $400 Rem 700 is your basic model.


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## Marcus99

Liko81 said:


> Remington 700 SPS (Special Purpose Synthetic)


Sorry Loki, but I think I'm not understanding what you mean exactly. When you refer to the 700, are you referring to the whole series (715, 770, 798 etc.), are you referring to the 770 which is what I'm looking at, or are you talking about the Model 700? The Model 700 is a bit more than I'm looking to spend ($1,000+) compared to the 770 (less than $500).


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## Todd

The 700 comes in many different "flavors". This is not counting the 770 or any other series.

Model 700™ CDL™ SF Limited Edition
Model 700™ VTR
Model 700™ XCR Compact Tactical
Alaskan Ti
BDL
CDL
CDL SF
CDL "Boone & Crockett" Series 
LV SF
Mountain LSS
LSS .257 Weatherby Mag 50th Anniversary Limited Edition 
SPS
SPS Buckmasters Edition 
SPS DM
SPS Stainless
SPS Tactical 
SPS Varmint 
VLS
Sendero SF II
VSF
VS SF II
VL SS™ Thumbhole 
XCR
XCR RMEF Edition


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## Marcus99

Todd said:


> The 700 comes in many different "flavors". This is not counting the 770 or any other series.


Thank you Todd, I didn't see all those when I was browsing their site before. Even so though, the 700 is still in the upper range if not above what I want to spend. I'm going to need money next year in college and over the summer to do some work on my Cadillac. Hell, I'd love some of those rifles, but I simply can't put that kind of dough out.

Would any of you see any foreseeable mechanical problems with the Remington 770? Or any reasons at all why I shouldn't get it?

You guys are great. Thanks a ton.


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## brokenviewfinder

Hey Marcus,

I don't have much advice for your choice rifle, but I want to commend you for your straight-forward and polite search/posts for help on forums like this. Being more than twice your age, I know of people my age who cannot/will not make decisions like yours without a good amount of personal prejudice (for whatever reason). Good for you, it seems like your on the right path.

Anyhow, when you are finished with college and making more dough, check out trap and skeet shooting. Smashing 25 of 25 flying clay birds is really fun! (Turkey is pretty tasty too)

.:smt023


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## Mike Barham

Marcus99 said:


> Would any of you see any foreseeable mechanical problems with the Remington 770? Or any reasons at all why I shouldn't get it?


It seems the 770 is just a re-badged version of the problem-child 710, so I'd pass. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=271932

I've seen 700 ADL's for relatively low prices, and would strongly prefer a budget 700 to a 710/770.

I still say the Savage is the best value in your price range. http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire_home.htm


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## 220combat

the 770 is a relabeled 710, and it has had problems. I would stay away from this model. I have had problems with mine.


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## Marcus99

brokenviewfinder said:


> I don't have much advice for your choice rifle, but I want to commend you for your straight-forward and polite search/posts for help on forums like this. Being more than twice your age, I know of people my age who cannot/will not make decisions like yours without a good amount of personal prejudice (for whatever reason). Good for you, it seems like your on the right path.


Thanks. I usually don't speak so formally but I'm new here and would like to be able to stay around on these forums for a while and I figure being polite is a good idea, haha.

So the 770 has a grandfather with a history of problems? It looked like a cheap alternative to the 700, but if you guys think it'll present problems then I don't want it. Thanks guys.

So I take it the Remington model 700 has somewhat of an old and established reputation? It seems to be their most widely produced firearms. I found the Remington model 700 SPS which costs $620 for the .30x06 (I've been thinking about the caliber and I've pretty much settled on the .30x06). That's a lot cheaper than the rest of the model 700 lineup, and it doesn't look that bad either. I'd prefer the wooden frame, but the plastic one doesn't bother me much. How do you think the model 700 SPS would be as a choice?

I'm thinking maybe it's better to save up a bit more dough and get this thing later in June. I've done a lot with building computers and such and it usually stands true that a more expensive part is better than a cheaper one, and from what I gather that's true for rifles as well. So I'm guessing that it's a general consensus that the model 700 would be a good investment and would last?

Anyhow, thanks a lot for this help, and just know that I'm considering all this advice and that I am going to make an actual purchase on a rifle sometime soon, so this info isn't just for a curiosity.


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## 220combat

the list price for the 700 SPS is $620, you should be able to get a dealer toorder one for you for about $550-$575. This is a great gun and a very capable caliber. If you plan on hunting with it, don't skimp on a cheap scope. Optics are just as important as the gun and ammo.


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## Marcus99

220combat said:


> the list price for the 700 SPS is $620, you should be able to get a dealer toorder one for you for about $550-$575. This is a great gun and a very capable caliber. If you plan on hunting with it, don't skimp on a cheap scope. Optics are just as important as the gun and ammo.


I just got back from the gun shop. It's run by two brothers who go shooting at the same range as we go to. My grandfather's bought over a dozen pistols from them over the past 20 years as well. We talked and he gave me a price of $520 for the Model 700 SPS and said we can put a scope on anywhere from $50 upwards of $500. He said that since I'm not looking to spend too much we can put one on for around $150 and keep the price at or below $700 total for the whole shebang and he could have it within a week of ordering. He's an honest guy and I don't think he's looking to screw me.

So anyhow I'm pretty set on that. It's a lot of money to spend on my first rifle that I'm actually purchasing, but it's only to hold me over until I turn 21 or move up to NH. I'd rather spend a lot now and have something that'll last and I can keep than something that'll break or won't perform well.

So now that I'm set on what rifle I'm going to work towards getting, what should I look for in a scope (brands, price, features, zoom ability (is that what those numbers like 4x32 mean, haha)?


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## tschmittel

I just checked budsgunshop.com and that rifle is $490 delivered. You have to pay a transfer fee but no sales tax. Good luck.:smt023


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## Todd

Marcus99 said:


> It's a lot of money to spend on my first rifle that I'm actually purchasing, but it's only to hold me over until I turn 21 or move up to NH. I'd rather spend a lot now and have something that'll last and I can keep than something that'll break or won't perform well.


I've been a handgun guy most of my shooting life and never bought my own long gun until I bought my AR last year (all the others I had in the past were given to me). So far I've probably got close to $2000 into my first long gun purchase. So, IMO, you're in good company! :mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## 4X4SNEAK

Sorry, I am a bit late jumping in here. Don't be afraid of a used rifle, 700 or whatever. A lot of time the common calibres like 270/308/30.06 are hunting season guns that see very little use. A good used 06 around here, in Montana, will sell for $350.00 with a scope.


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## Marcus99

4X4SNEAK said:


> Sorry, I am a bit late jumping in here. Don't be afraid of a used rifle, 700 or whatever. A lot of time the common calibres like 270/308/30.06 are hunting season guns that see very little use. A good used 06 around here, in Montana, will sell for $350.00 with a scope.


Thanks, but I have never liked used stuff. The only two rifles I would ever buy used are a Krag and the old British Enfield .303's. I shot a Krag a while back and I've read up on them over the years and I really like it, and the Enfield because my grandfather had one when he was a kid and said it was the best rifle he ever had.

Good news is my father's going to pay along with me for one of the better model 700's other than the SPS, and preferably with a wooden stock. I'll let you know how it goes later this month.

Thanks a lot guys!

EDIT: A bit of a change guys. I took a look at the tires on my Cadillac and the tread is really low, they're going to need to be replaced. So far my parents haven't put any money into the car (it's been all me) and I'm going to need to do this. There are a few other things that are starting to go on the car that will need to be fixed soon, such as the brakes. Luckily I can do this work myself, but I'm going to have to pay for this. I don't see any way I can afford this new rifle, so now I'm looking for a used one, despite the fact I'd rather have new.

Sorry, I know it seems like I'm jumping around here, the money just isn't there though. Would you guys say I could find a used Springfield 1903, a Krag or one of those old British Enfield's from WWI out there and for a reasonable price (less than $300)? I saw a few of these at the gun show's I went to recently, but at that time I wasn't looking so I don't know the prices that these typically go for.

Thanks guys, sorry for the hassle


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## PanaDP

Marcus99 said:


> Sorry, I know it seems like I'm jumping around here, the money just isn't there though. Would you guys say I could find a used Springfield 1903, a Krag or one of those old British Enfield's from WWI out there and for a reasonable price (less than $300)? I saw a few of these at the gun show's I went to recently, but at that time I wasn't looking so I don't know the prices that these typically go for.
> 
> Thanks guys, sorry for the hassle


Since money is a consideration, I have one important question: do you reload?

If you don't, I would think twice about buying a rifle in an antiquated cartridge like the .303 or 30-40 krag. They will be quite expensive to feed unless you reload.

An m1903 in .30-06 would probably be the least expensive to feed of that bunch since the .30-06 is such a standard.


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## Liko81

Marcus99 said:


> I just got back from the gun shop. It's run by two brothers who go shooting at the same range as we go to. My grandfather's bought over a dozen pistols from them over the past 20 years as well. We talked and he gave me a price of $520 for the Model 700 SPS and said we can put a scope on anywhere from $50 upwards of $500. He said that since I'm not looking to spend too much we can put one on for around $150 and keep the price at or below $700 total for the whole shebang and he could have it within a week of ordering. He's an honest guy and I don't think he's looking to screw me.
> 
> So anyhow I'm pretty set on that. It's a lot of money to spend on my first rifle that I'm actually purchasing, but it's only to hold me over until I turn 21 or move up to NH. I'd rather spend a lot now and have something that'll last and I can keep than something that'll break or won't perform well.
> 
> So now that I'm set on what rifle I'm going to work towards getting, what should I look for in a scope (brands, price, features, zoom ability (is that what those numbers like 4x32 mean, haha)?


For my money, if the company's good at camera optics, they're getting my money for a rifle scope. Nikon and Pentax both make good scopes, but there are plenty of good brands to choose from.

Scopes are classified primarily by aperture. When you hear 20x40 or 30x60, they're talking about the entry and exit lens diameters in millimeters. The first number is the sight lens (the end you look into), while the second is the target lens (on the other side). A larger target lens collects more light, so the scope is more useful in low-light situations like deer-hunting at 4:00 in the morning. A larger sight lens (really a larger combination of both) gives you a larger off-angle view, so you can still see the crosshair even if your eye isn't completely in line with the scope's lenses, allowing you to acquire your target more rapidly and easily, especially when you're in an odd position like up a tree. The downside of a larger scope is the size, and also the cost as making a perfect big lens is more difficult than making a perfect small lens (it's kinda like diamonds; your average quarter-carat flawless diamond is nothing special, but a 2-carat flawless diamond is very difficult to come by).

Beyond that, zoom capability is also tracked. Each scope size has its maximum; larger lenses can usually zoom farther. A scope may say it is 2-9x; that simply means it provides a zoom level from 2x to 9x magnification. When you use a scoped weapon, usually you need magnification, so very few scopes are 1x.

When you buy a scope, look through it (duh). Most sights are your standard wire crosshair, though "tactical" sight pictures such as a T-bar or triangle are also available, often on the same model. If the scope has a focus adjustment, set it so that the sight picture and field are both in focus (your eye can focus independently to bring one or the other into clarity, but you want both otherwise the sight picture can literally disappear on you when you focus on the field). If the scope does not have a focus adjustment, try moving it closer or further away from your eye (to prevent smacking yourself with the scope, it's generally mounted about a foot away from your eye). If you simply cannot get a sharp picture, try another scope.

Once you've found one that gives a good picture, adjust the scope through its zoom range while looking through it. The scope should hold focus as you zoom. Cheaper scopes are generally deficient here and will move out of focus as you zoom in (this is both a function of lens quality and tolerance of distances between lenses in the scope); a focus control is a workaround and totally adequate for stand-hunting with a bait (just focus in on your bait, set and forget), but if you're on the prowl for your deer you don't want to be fiddling with your scope, you want to be taking the shot.

Lastly, a good scope adjusts smoothly but resists incidental changes from minor bumps. You do not want a scope that takes a pair of pliers to adjust zoom or focus, but at the same time a slight nudge should not bump the scope out of focus. Really good ones have adjustable tension or a set screw that allows you to sight in and lock down.

If you find a scope with these qualities at a price you can afford, that's your scope. This will hopefully not be the most expensive one in the case, but you're probably looking at about $200 minimum. Better scopes than that zoom farther, have larger lenses and more precise tolerances, but the law of diminishing returns kicks in and there will be a point at which you cannot see an increase in picture quality in the next most expensive scope until you zoom out to 20x and sight on a target a mile away (that's world-class sniper shooting right there). Depending on your hunting grounds and preferred game, 200 yards is about the longest practical shot you can take, and that's quite a ways; imagine trying to bullseye your average pistol target from across two football fields. You should be able to find a $200-300 scope that will do the job admirably and will take you as a shooter a long while to outgrow.


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## Mike Barham

I'd get an Enfield #4. Impact Guns has them for $160 in "fine" condition, for example. They have good aperture sights and are heavy enough for comfortable shooting despite the hard buttplate. The ten-round mag is fun, though it will need replacement for hunting in most states. Properly scoping an Enfield is a challenge, however.

Look _very_ hard at the bore of any of the old milsurps.

.303 Brit ammo actually isn't that expensive right now. Sportsmans Guide has Pakistani surplus .303 for $73 for 320 rounds. That's _way_ cheaper than, for example, surplus .308.


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## PanaDP

Mike Barham said:


> I'd get an Enfield #4. Impact Guns has them for $160 in "fine" condition, for example. They have good aperture sights and are heavy enough for comfortable shooting despite the hard buttplate. The ten-round mag is fun, though it will need replacement for hunting in most states. Properly scoping an Enfield is a challenge, however.
> 
> Look _very_ hard at the bore of any of the old milsurps.
> 
> .303 Brit ammo actually isn't that expensive right now. Cheaper Than Dirt has Pakistani surplus .303 for $73 for 320 rounds. That's _way_ cheaper than, for example, surplus .308.


I won't say that Mike is wrong, but check the shops in your area. I know I would never find .303 ammo in my area, and I have to pay FFL fees to have it shipped to me so I would personally steer clear of the .303. Your area may be different (i.e. better than Southern California) like Mike's.


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## Mike Barham

You pretty much have to order online to get the good prices. This isn't a problem if you live in America. :mrgreen:


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## PanaDP

Mike Barham said:


> This isn't a problem if you live in America. :mrgreen:


Ooh. That one hurt, Mike. Hurt bad.:smt089


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## lovain1932

7mm-08 is a great caliber also out of the box savage accuracy wins hands down


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## sesquipedalian101

So I do have one (1) question: Have you actually held one of these rifles?

You mentioned hunting as a possible use for the rifle at some future date. There are a number of standard "positions" for shooting a rifle. At the gun range a lot of people do the "bench rest" thing -- which is fine for sighting in a rifle because you want to minimize the variation introduced by anything other than sight settings. Out in the field you may well have to use what for most people is the "most difficult to hold on target" position: standing.

So, were I you, buying a rifle that would have to "do me" for a number of years, before I worried about caliber or action or price or make or model or which is good or which has problems, or other specifications, I would find a rifle that "fit" me. This has more to do with length, weight, balance, the amount of "drop" to the stock, straight-stock versus pistol grip, et cetera than it does particular model or caliber. You might start with your friend at the gun shop and see if you can "shoulder" a variety of what he has in stock. You don't need to even work the action or "dry fire" anything to start with; just see if you can comfortably "hold" on target for 30 seconds to a minute in an "off hand" position. Once you find something that fits, then start working towards the "best" caliber, price, et cetera.

Okay, here's a tip on scopes...

Price is *not* a reliable indicator of quality these days. There are some really good Japanese and Taiwanese scopes that cost less than $50 and some crappy (my opinion) American made ones that cost ten times that amount. (Of course, you can also get $50 crap and $500 excellence too.)

A story:

My personal favorite is a Tasco that I bought, on sale, for $26 at a gun show; my least favorite is a Weaver that cost 7X that amount. The difference? Well, I discovered that the hard way. My wife and I have several "matching" rifles (its a long story, suffice to say that I can have any firearm I want -- so long as I buy her an equivalent one first). We used to target practice by shooting at dimes at 100yds. When that got too expensive, we swiched to pennies. Then we got a new set of rifles. Her new gun did a fine job of turning coinage into jewelry; with mine, I couldn't get reliably closer than about two inches! We had mounted the "cheap Tasco" on her gun; the Weaver on mine (I said "equivalent"; not "identical")

One of our local sporting goods stores has a whole display of scopes mounted at the front of their establishment. They are set up so that you can look through them and see the outside world. Two of these scopes happened to match the ones on our new rifles. With them solidly affixed to an immovable surface, I discovered the source of my accuracy problems. When I looked through the Weaver at the object across the street on which it was trained, moving my head even slightly made the crosshairs shift an inch or more in the field of view. Moving my head changed the sight picture! With the Tasco, moving my head made no difference in the perceived point of aim. Sure, move it far enough, and the image in the scope would start to "go dark"; but the point of aim remained the same.

Another Story:

In my day job, I do networking. One of our emergency restoration devices is a Free Space Optical Transmission set. These are basically lasers that you aim at one another across open distances of up to 400 yards. The lasers are invisible (infrared) and you have a 2-inch circle you have to hit at the far end. The whole kit was about $10,000 for the "low end" unit we bought. To aim accurately across the open spaces, the company shipped a couple of telescopic sights that, on the open market, are about $250 each. When we set the gear up to try it, we discovered that one could get as much as 1/4 inch shift in the point of aim, by moving one's head, just sighting from one side of our office to the other (about 20 feet). Move that shift out to 400 yards, and you get a 15 inch displacement in the aim point! I brought in the Tasco (from my wife's rifle  ) for long distance set up.

A Scope Primer:

So, in picking a scope, here are the critical things:

1) Pick one designed for the caliber you are using. Generally speaking, I like to go heaver rather than lighter -- despite opinion to the contrary, a high power rifle scope will work on a .22; a .22 scope on a high power rifle will shift adjustments randomly due to recoil and, eventually, leave you with scope parts lying about in unauthorized places.

2) Pick the right eye relief. The more the rifle "kicks" back toward your shoulder when you fire it, the more space you want between it and your eye. Here again, a .22 scope on a high power rifle will cause problems -- in fact, it might not fall apart because of repeated recoil; if your head is hard enough, it might break against your eyebrow on the first shot 

3) Pick the right tubes. Generally speaking, larger tubes gather more light (are brighter), are more robust, and are easier to mount.

4) Pick the right mounting. More kick and "sharper" kick from a gun requires more strength and more "grip" in the mounting. The wrong mounting system can require you to over torque the mounts (and bend tubes) to make everything hold still. Further, a mounting system that allows adjusting the aim point on the scope is a good idea. Most scopes now come with "click stop" windage and elevation adjustments. Most shooters slap the scope on top of the rifle, then use these adjustments to "sight in" their scope. The problem is, these adjustments are typically designed to be some reliable fraction of a MOA (minute of angle) per click. This makes them ideal, once you know your gun, for adjusting your scope in the field to accommodate an estimated range -- provided that you didn't use up all of that adjustment to get your gun zeroed at 100 yards.

5) Pick the right power. The higher the power, the better you can see at distance. The higher the power, the harder it is to find your target up close. When that bear is charging you from 40 yards, do you really want a 12 power scope that will show a tick crawling on his hide but not whether said tick is between his eyes or on his rear end?

6) If you go with a variable power, be sure neither the focus nor the aim point changes when you change power setting. Also, be sure you can easily return the scope to the lowest setting w/o more than 3/4 to one full turn -- the bear isn't going to wait for you to fumble.

7) Finally, my secret tip, check to be sure the aim point does not move when you shift your eye positon. I know, in the ideal world we are supposed to put our head in the same position every time. Tell that to the buck you can only see when laying head down half across the log shooting left-handed (right-handed for me).

8) Ok, the last one was "next to final"; Check the scope for all of the above before buying. In my experience, make and model is not always reliable. I've seen name brand's where last year's model of scope was excellent; this years version had problems; and next year they fix the problems. Check what you buy and make sure it is compatible with your gun before you buy it.

Beyond the simple stuff listed above, you get into things like coatings, nitrogen filling, recticle style, et cetera. Some of these things make a difference to some shooters under some conditions. Know the purpose of each "option" the salesguy is hawking and decide if it suits your needs before you shell out an extra $100 to add a particular feature.

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## sesquipedalian101

Okay, if you are still open to alternative rifle options, here is a short (for me) suggestion...

Look into a high power air rifle; they are:
1. Cheap to shoot. 
2. Relatively quiet. 
3. Truly Smokeless.
4. No muzzle flash.
5. Not classed as a firearm (except, unfortunately, in Mass and certain other socialist states). 
6. Older technology than cartridge firearms.
7. First successful repeating military weapon.
8. An Historically significant technology -- (Lewis & Clark had a peaceful expedition primarily because of the air rifle they carried)
9. Can be shipped w/o FFL. 
10. Decent for home defense. 

Unfortunately, not legal for big game in the U.S. -- but used to hunt deer in other countries. 

Something to check out -- at least for "fun."

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## Marcus99

sesquipedalian101 said:


> So I do have one (1) question: Have you actually held one of these rifles?


Yes, I've held all three of those, although I don't know what varients they were.

My reason for choosing the Krag is...a) I liked the rifle overall when I shot it. Smooth and very neat looking. b) I love studying the Spanish-American war and the Krag was an instrumental part in our winning of the conflict. I'd love to have a piece of history from that war that I can actually use.

I like the Springfield and British Enfield's as well. Each time I used them I found that they were pretty accurate, but as someone else said, finding ammo for the Krag and Enfield isn't that easy unless you reload. My grandfather actually had a whole setup in his basement for reloading that he sold about ten years ago :smt022

I was really set on the Model 700, it's too bad that I won't be able to afford it. But I love history, especially the Spanish-American and First world war, and when I think about it I'd love to have something that saw that war such a long time ago, even if it is dated and not as good as these modern rifles. And again, I don't plan on taking up rifle's, I'm definately sticking with handguns, but until I turn 21 I don't have much of a choice.

Got to get to work, thanks guys!


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## sesquipedalian101

Marcus99 said:


> My reason for choosing the Krag is...


Understood... and accepted.

My Dad carried a Krag during WWI. He trained in Southern California and, prior to his scheduled departure for Europe, and was assigned transportation duties (mule team) in support of the troops guarding the Mexican Border. Most of these troops (sorry, don't remember the division number) were Spanish American War Vets who, according to Dad, had been promised by T.R. that they would never have to "serve in a foreign war" again. So, they wound up chasing bandits (and others) on the Mexican Border. Before my Dad's unit was due to ship out, the war ended. Had he gone overseas, he would have had to turn in his Krag for an Enfield or other weapon; as it was, he was allowed to keep it when he mustered out. So, he brought it home and...

...had it turned into an ash tray! I've never understood that! My Dad didn't even smoke, but we now have this family heirloom that is basically a Krag barrel and action mounted (breech end) on a four-footed piece of cast iron with a stamped steel ash tray screwed into the muzzle. So far as I know, all of the parts work (yes, as a kid, I spent a lot of time investigating the action and trigger), but the stock et al are long gone. When I was about 13, I pulled the sights off of the barrel and mounted them on another gun because I figured they would serve better killing varmints than snuffing cigarettes -- but that is another story...

...Dad always said turning your rifle into an ashtray was "the fashionable thing to do" at the time -- I never got more of an explanation than that from him -- though, I am betting his first wife had a hand in it. At least nothing he brought home from WWII suffered the same fate. 

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## Marcus99

You guys have given me more than enough information to make a decision. I'm going to start seriously looking around and I'll update this thread when I get whatever I end up purchasing or run out of money and end up with nothing 

Thanks again guys!


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