# Smith & Wesson M&P...REALLY???



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

"In the design of the M&P, we considered the needs of military and law enforcement from every conceivable angle.* No other polymer pistol offers this combination of versatility, durability and safety*. ALL BACKED BY OUR SMITH & WESSON LIFETIME SERVICE POLICY."

Now I love this line of pistols from S&W, but I don't think they can truly lay claim to the bold statement.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

It is a nice pistol and I love my 9mm M&P


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

shaolin said:


> It is a nice pistol and I love my 9mm M&P


Oh I agree!! I have the Shield, and have owned the 9 and 45. Great pistols!!! Love them! Just that little claim. "NO OTHER polymer pistol offers this combination of..." I don't know about that!


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Well, their polymer frames are reinforced with metal... Glocks are not and Kahrs are not and pretty sure XD's arn't either. Very strong frame design.

That's about the biggest structural design difference.

Versatility would be the ability to get most models with an optional external safety... not all manufacturers offer this feature either.

So, quite possibly... no other manufacturers do offer that combination. No different than the "Glock Perfection" advertising slogan... which we all know isn't 100% true.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

TAPnRACK said:


> Well, their polymer frames are reinforced with metal... Glocks are not and Kahrs are not and pretty sure XD's arn't either. Very strong frame design.
> 
> That's about the biggest structural design difference.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Nothing on this side of existence is "perfection", but Glock does come close.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> Well, their polymer frames are reinforced with metal... Glocks are not and Kahrs are not and pretty sure XD's arn't either. Very strong frame design.
> 
> That's about the biggest structural design difference.
> 
> ...


Maybe so. I do really like the M&P line. Great pistols.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

berettatoter said:


> Yeah. Nothing on this side of existence is "perfection", but Glock does come close.


This is true. The closest I've seen thus far.


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## warbird1 (Apr 17, 2012)

Love my M&P 45c. Had a problem at one time. S&W went above and beyond. They do stand behind their line. Glocks are....for somebody else.


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

As I look at it, the M&P is a worked over Glock. I love my M&P 9 and 9c, I keep looking at a G19 and I don't get one because I already have two of them (for all intents and purposes). I have the Glock 21SF and 41 and will not trade them as they shoot a lot softer than my 1911's. I know I don't need a Glock 19, but then I don't NEED a lot of things.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I have five M&P's, one of which is their fine M&P 22. All of them are great shooters and I have put over 4000 rounds through my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25". It is a little sensitive to dirty magazines and dirt in general from going too long between cleanings (5-600 seems to be the area where you start seeing some failures to feed on occasion). Keep them clean and they run great. And quite accurately, I might add.

Glocks are a bit more forgiving in the dirt category, mostly because of the utter simplicity. So the reliability edge goes to them.... of course, keep that M&P clean and the edge diminishes markedly. My four centerfire M&P's do live in my carry stable with three of them on stand by (this means can be called up at any given time).

Getting a Glock or an M&P means you have purchased something from the top rung of combat pistols. You'd be well served by either of these.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> I have five M&P's, one of which is their fine M&P 22. All of them are great shooters and I have put over 4000 rounds through my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25". It is a little sensitive to dirty magazines and dirt in general from going too long between cleanings (5-600 seems to be the area where you start seeing some failures to feed on occasion). Keep them clean and they run great. And quite accurately, I might add.
> 
> Glocks are a bit more forgiving in the dirt category, mostly because of the utter simplicity. So the reliability edge goes to them.... of course, keep that M&P clean and the edge diminishes markedly. My four centerfire M&P's do live in my carry stable with three of them on stand by (this means can be called up at any given time).
> 
> Getting a Glock or an M&P means you have purchased something from the top rung of combat pistols. You'd be well served by either of these.


I have to admit you got me thinking about that 4" M&P 45! I had the 4.5" and liked it. Even better after the APEX firing pin, but I ultimately traded it for another Glock. I've got my eye on that 4" though!


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Sgt45 said:


> As I look at it, the M&P is a worked over Glock. I love my M&P 9 and 9c, I keep looking at a G19 and I don't get one because I already have two of them (for all intents and purposes). I have the Glock 21SF and 41 and will not trade them as they shoot a lot softer than my 1911's. I know I don't need a Glock 19, but then I don't NEED a lot of things.


I'm right there with ya! Don't need anything else, but uh...


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Sgt45 said:


> As I look at it, the M&P is a worked over Glock. I love my M&P 9 and 9c, I keep looking at a G19 and I don't get one because I already have two of them (for all intents and purposes). I have the Glock 21SF and 41 and will not trade them as they shoot a lot softer than my 1911's. I know I don't need a Glock 19, but then I don't NEED a lot of things.


I bought a new gen3 Glock 21SF last November and for some reason after getting it home and thinking about it, found I didn't care for it. What I really liked better was the gen4 Glock 21. It measured just a slight bit smaller in the grip than the G21SF and with the new grip texturing, felt so much better. So I boiught a gen4 G21 and sold the G21SF on consignment. I only lost $35 which is not much to lose when you realize you made a mistake.

My gen4 G17 and G22 both feel great in my hands and I shoot them well. For my hands, what Glock has done with the gen4 grip size, texturing, and pull length works great.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> I have to admit you got me thinking about that 4" M&P 45! I had the 4.5" and liked it. Even better after the APEX firing pin, but I ultimately traded it for another Glock. I've got my eye on that 4" though!


I have three .45ACP pistols (Kimber Custom, gen4 Glock 21, and the M&P 45 4"), and the 4" M&P has the best feel and balance of the lot for me. Have to ask... you put an Apex firing pin in your M&P? Never heard of that being done. Why did you decide to do this? Most people replace trigger components, sears, springs, and striker safety blocks in their M&P's.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

I have 3 current, 2 former, and 1 future M&Ps. I find that they, my (former) 1911, and my Kel-techs point naturally for me. The Glock and Revolvers I have to relearn my grip. So for me, the M&Ps are top carry guns. And my 45c is THE most comfortable of them to carry (this may change when the shield arrives)
As for advertising, I take them ALL with a salt block.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> I bought a new gen3 Glock 21SF last November and for some reason after getting it home and thinking about it, found I didn't care for it. What I really liked better was the gen4 Glock 21. It measured just a slight bit smaller in the grip than the G21SF and with the new grip texturing, felt so much better. So I boiught a gen4 G21 and sold the G21SF on consignment. I only lost $35 which is not much to lose when you realize you made a mistake.
> 
> *I have found the same to be true! I just like the Gen4s b/c of the little tweaks Glock made. It truly makes them a totally different pistol.*My gen4 G17 and G22 both feel great in my hands and I shoot them well. For my hands, what Glock has done with the gen4 grip size, texturing, and pull length works great.


The size difference in the grips with the MBS and the texturing makes all the difference in the world! This is why I went back to Glock. Before I was put on the Gen4, I was carrying the Sig P226, which is a great pistol, but the Glock just makes more sense for CC.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> I have three .45ACP pistols (Kimber Custom, gen4 Glock 21, and the M&P 45 4"), and the 4" M&P has the best feel and balance of the lot for me. Have to ask... you put an Apex firing pin in your M&P? Never heard of that being done. Why did you decide to do this? Most people replace trigger components, sears, springs, and striker safety blocks in their M&P's.


Actually, it was my cousin's recommendation. He is a local cop and he carries the M&P 45 4.5", and he changed the pin in his. It changed the trigger pull trememdously. It was so smooth, almost like a hair trigger, and it changed the way the pistol performed to the point that I almost cried when I traded it. It was just a little large for a CCW, which is why I am curious as to how your 4" compares to the size of your Glock 23. I carry the Gen4 G19 now, with factory night sites, and that pistol is like it was made to fit my hands custom, but I love the feel of that M&P 45. I just wanted it to be a touch smaller.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Somewhere I have a pic of my 45c on top of my G19 & vice versa. The size is negligible at best. Only real difference TO ME is the Glock grip angle, which in a holster, pokes my ribs more. Although this ALSO tucks it in tighter for comcealment.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

niadhf said:


> Somewhere I have a pic of my 45c on top of my G19 & vice versa. The size is negligible at best. Only real difference TO ME is the Glock grip angle, which in a holster, pokes my ribs more. Although this ALSO tucks it in tighter for comcealment.


Thanks for the input! I'm really torn here on whether to trade my 17 for the 45c or just wait a bit and buy one out right. Decisions!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Actually, it was my cousin's recommendation. He is a local cop and he carries the M&P 45 4.5", and he changed the pin in his. It changed the trigger pull trememdously. It was so smooth, almost like a hair trigger, and it changed the way the pistol performed to the point that I almost cried when I traded it. It was just a little large for a CCW, which is why I am curious as to how your 4" compares to the size of your Glock 23. I carry the Gen4 G19 now, with factory night sites, and that pistol is like it was made to fit my hands custom, but I love the feel of that M&P 45. I just wanted it to be a touch smaller.


Almost sounds like your cousin changed the sear and not the firing pin on his M&P. My M&P 45 4" has the Apex hard sear, which is part of their DCAEK, and it breaks almost like a 1911... think a small glass rod.

Now as for the size difference between the G23 and the M&P 45 4", I just went down to my basement to compare the two to one another (I have another gen3 G23 in my safe). They are the same length with the exception of the beavertail on the M&P, which does extend a little more to the rear than does the one on the G23. Of course, the M&P is wider due to the larger caliber (the G23 is the same size as the G19). The height of the two guns is different with the M&P being 5/8 of an inch taller. So there you have it. The most noticeable size difference is in the height.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> Almost sounds like your cousin changed the sear and not the firing pin on his M&P. My M&P 45 4" has the Apex hard sear, which is part of their DCAEK, and it breaks almost like a 1911... think a small glass rod.


I was thinking the striker boll was replaced with the USB was what was replaced, as that tends to smooth out the gritty feel of the Stock block.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Almost sounds like your cousin changed the sear and not the firing pin on his M&P. My M&P 45 4" has the Apex hard sear, which is part of their DCAEK, and it breaks almost like a 1911... think a small glass rod.
> 
> Now as for the size difference between the G23 and the M&P 45 4", I just went down to my basement to compare the two to one another (I have another gen3 G23 in my safe). They are the same length with the exception of the beavertail on the M&P, which does extend a little more to the rear than does the one on the G23. Of course, the M&P is wider due to the larger caliber (the G23 is the same size as the G19). The height of the two guns is different with the M&P being 5/8 of an inch taller. So there you have it. The most noticeable size difference is in the height.


YES! I'm sorry...it was the sear. For some reason I've got firing pin stuck in my head, but it was the sear. Not enough of a size difference to really notice when carrying I'm guessing. Thanks for that input!!! And you're right, the break is very much like a smooth 1911.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

niadhf said:


> I was thinking the striker boll was replaced with the USB was what was replaced, as that tends to smooth out the gritty feel of the Stock block.


Replacing the factory striker block safety with the USB from Apex is the best way to remove that gritty pre-travel. The difference is astounding. All four of my centerfire M&P's have at least this mod (two of them have the Apex DCAEK installed but with the factory OEM trigger spring).


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> YES! I'm sorry...it was the sear. For some reason I've got firing pin stuck in my head, but it was the sear. Not enough of a size difference to really notice when carrying I'm guessing. Thanks for that input!!! And you're right, the break is very much like a smooth 1911.


Yep, I was really surprised with the difference that hard sear makes. Of course you still have the pre-travel but that's not a problem at all for me. I'm used to that in both my M&P's and my Glocks.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> YES! I'm sorry...it was the sear. For some reason I've got firing pin stuck in my head, but it was the sear. Not enough of a size difference to really notice when carrying I'm guessing. Thanks for that input!!! And you're right, the break is very much like a smooth 1911.


What I noticed mostly between the Glock 23 and the M&P 45 4" was the additional width and to a little lesser degree, the longer grip. And then there is the weight difference. Those 230 grain .45's do account for an increase in weight, especially when you consider the larger slide and barrel. But still not a major concern by any stretch. I use a Comp-Tac belt holster with my M&P 45 and it sits just fine with it. I also use the small backstrap because I don't have large hands. Fit is great and the pull length is also very good. Trigger pull weight comes in at 5 pounds and oh... that crisp break. Factory trigger was 8 pounds 5 ounces and the DCAEK kit took it to 6 1/2 pounds. I replaced the Apex trigger spring with the factory unit to get the pull weight down to where I have my other carry guns. I did the same thing to my M&P 9c.

I have a gen4 Glock 21 which I really like but my M&P 45 4" beats it in the fit and feel department.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> What I noticed mostly between the Glock 23 and the M&P 45 4" was the additional width and to a little lesser degree, the longer grip. And then there is the weight difference. Those 230 grain .45's do account for an increase in weight, especially when you consider the larger slide and barrel. But still not a major concern by any stretch. I use a Comp-Tac belt holster with my M&P 45 and it sits just fine with it. I also use the small backstrap because I don't have large hands. Fit is great and the pull length is also very good. Trigger pull weight comes in at 5 pounds and oh... that crisp break. Factory trigger was 8 pounds 5 ounces and the DCAEK kit took it to 6 1/2 pounds. I replaced the Apex trigger spring with the factory unit to get the pull weight down to where I have my other carry guns. I did the same thing to my M&P 9c.
> 
> I have a gen4 Glock 21 which I really like but my M&P 45 4" beats it in the fit and feel department.


I am very tempted to modify my G19 the way you have your 23, and perhaps trade my 17 for an M&P. But let me ask you. Why do you prefer to carry your 23 over any of your M&Ps?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> I am very tempted to modify my G19 the way you have your 23, and perhaps trade my 17 for an M&P. But let me ask you. Why do you prefer to carry your 23 over any of your M&Ps?


*"Why do you prefer to carry your 23 over any of your M&Ps?"*
Size mostly. The two guns in my carry stable that I shoot the best are my primary gen3 G23 and my M&P 9 Pro 4.25". There are a few others I shoot nearly as well but these two lead the pack. Next up would be my gen4 G17 and my M&P 40 4.25". Mostly size cuts the decision. I have carried both of the aforementioned M&P's and when I do, I usually go with my M&P 9 Pro.

*"I am very tempted to modify my G19 the way you have your 23.."*
For the record, I describe again what I have done to my primary gen3 G23 (I say primary because I have two of them, configured the same way);


Trijicon night sights, model GL01.
Polished all internal contacting metal parts.
Smooth faced trigger (as used on the G22).
Contoured trigger safety to match curvature of the trigger face and to be flush when depressed.
Glock 3.5 connector.
Six pound trigger spring.
Pull weight comes in at or slightly under 5 pounds with a nice break.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> *"Why do you prefer to carry your 23 over any of your M&Ps?"*
> Size mostly. The two guns in my carry stable that I shoot the best are my primary gen3 G23 and my M&P 9 Pro 4.25". There are a few others I shoot nearly as well but these two lead the pack. Next up would be my gen4 G17 and my M&P 40 4.25". Mostly size cuts the decision. I have carried both of the aforementioned M&P's and when I do, I usually go with my M&P 9 Pro.
> 
> *"I am very tempted to modify my G19 the way you have your 23.."*
> ...


Did you do the work yourself or send it in?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Did you do the work yourself or send it in?


With the exception of the sights, I did it all myself. The reason I didn't do the sights is because where I purchased them an armorer is always on duty and will install them at no cost. So why not? I do have a sight tool and have used it on other pistols.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> With the exception of the sights, I did it all myself. The reason I didn't do the sights is because where I purchased them an armorer is always on duty and will install them at no cost. So why not? I do have a sight tool and have used it on other pistols.


My 19 already has the night sites, but I am interested in changing the spring, etc. How easy is it? What tools do I need?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> My 19 already has the night sites, but I am interested in changing the spring, etc. How easy is it? What tools do I need?


If you're talking the trigger spring, it's quite simple. The most common internal mods that people make with their Glocks are connector and trigger return spring replacements and internal polishing. You have to detail strip your pistol and yes, this is very simple to do. However, I would venture this suggestion to you before you do this.

Consider what it is you want and what you expect to achieve with any modifications you want to make first. And you might not want to jump in and do everything right away. In other words, just one or two mods may do it for you and give you what you're looking for with your Glock. Glocks are funny. Some tend to need more changes that others to get you to that really good trigger (Glock-wise, of course). So it's best to be clear in your mind what you think your gun needs before starting out with this.

You can get all the information you need off of YouTube for detail stripping a Glock and doing the work. But before trying this, make sure you understand how the gun functions and how the parts interact with each other. Not knowing this can result in an improper re-assembly and a malfunctioning gun. I have done this many times with mine and other's Glocks so I am very comfortable with all of this.

As for tools, you can buy the "Glock Tool" or just use a 1/16" roll punch (I think that's the size... I use the Glock tool). If polishing (view online videos), you may also want to use a curved needle nose plier (straight nose works, too) to hold a few of the parts (connector, trigger bar, striker safety block).

Once again, know what you're doing before you start any of this. You do not want to do anything that will mess up your gun. If you do, the parts are inexpensive but be safe and know before going in.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> If you're talking the trigger spring, it's quite simple. The most common internal mods that people make with their Glocks are connector and trigger return spring replacements and internal polishing. You have to detail strip your pistol and yes, this is very simple to do. However, I would venture this suggestion to you before you do this.
> 
> Consider what it is you want and what you expect to achieve with any modifications you want to make first. And you might not want to jump in and do everything right away. In other words, just one or two mods may do it for you and give you what you're looking for with your Glock. Glocks are funny. Some tend to need more changes that others to get you to that really good trigger (Glock-wise, of course). So it's best to be clear in your mind what you think your gun needs before starting out with this.
> 
> ...


Great! Thanks very much for the insight. I will look to do exactly that.


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