# Another if you would be in charge question



## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

*If you would be in charge to equip our armed forces with sidearms, how would that look like?*

Paratroopers and all forces that have to carry a sidearm for a long haul, like green barrettes or navy seals, that operate often in a distance to any ground base and the amount and weight of ammo to carry is a factor.
The sidearm would be the H&K USP Compact in 9X19.

Flight crews, Pilots and aircraft personnel or office people that have to carry the sidearm under a jacked or a special suit would be equipped with the H&K 45 Compact a 45 acp chambered firearm.

All Ground forces would be equipped with the H&K Mark 23 in 45 acp.

Regardless of any discussion a 45 acp doesn't shrink and if I only can use FMJ bullets, a 45 acp is the number in my book because it have proven to work in combat.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, given the fact that SPECOPS soldiers already have discretion as to what sidearm they carry, and most choose the 9mm, I would defer to their choice. Some already choose a .45, either the HK45 or a 1911, but they have more choice than the avg soldier. The Navy SEALs are issued the Sig P226 while the Army Dealta Force either the M9, CZ-75 or the HK45, I am told, but they all have a little lattitude. Chris Kyle did not like the 9mm P226, so he carried a Springfield Armory TRP 1911 for a while, then chose a Sig P220. 

As for a standard issue sidearm, I would make it as simple as possible with a platform that fit most personnel. In this case, I would pick the Glock 17 Gen4. It is safe, reliable, accurate and easy to use/maintain, and it just works. It has excellent capacity and can be obtained relatively cheaper than any other firearm, I pressume. The HK MK 23 is a massive weapon, and simply would not work for most in any capacity be it conventional soldier to the most elite operator. That is why this platform is no longer widely used. 

WRT to the caliber, it has been proven over and over that caliber does not matter nearly as much as placement when it comes to handgun loads. Pistol cartridges just do not produce the terminal velocity to create significant, incapacitating wound channels when compared to the rifle. So, given that, and the fact that the handgun is a secondary system, accuracy matters most, and most are going to shoot the 9mm more accurately than they will any other caliber, I'll go with the 9mm. That is not to say that some cannot shoot larger calibers accurately, but that everyone will shoot the 9mm more accurately. 

The fact that you are not very likely to drop your target with one shot means that you're going to need good follow up shots to put the target down, and the odds of landing good follow up shots for most people are better with a 9mm than with any other caliber, plus the 9mm gives you more to shoot. So for the masses, it's a 9mm for standard issue. For special operators, it is a personal choice (and most choose a 9mm more than any other round).


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

"green barrettes".......really? 

I've trained with them. I have a feeling that they would not be pleased in regards to your spelling. :buttkick:


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> "green barrettes".......really?
> 
> I've trained with them. I have a feeling that they would not be pleased in regards to your spelling. :buttkick:


Be nice... PT111 was not raised an English-speaker, and his auto-correct probably tripped him up on that. A lot of us born English-speakers have trouble spelling, too.

The word, for the record, is "berets."


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

SailDesign said:


> Be nice... PT111 was not raised an English-speaker, and his auto-correct probably tripped him up on that. A lot of us born English-speakers have trouble spelling, too.
> 
> The word, for the record, is "berets."


"Barrettes" is funnier, though how they can be utilized with a 'highside' is unclear.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SailDesign said:


> Be nice... PT111 was not raised an English-speaker, and his auto-correct probably tripped him up on that. A lot of us born English-speakers have trouble spelling, too.
> 
> The word, for the record, is "berets."


He's from east Texas for crying out loud. If you can't keep up with the pack, you need to move to the side and get the Hell outta the way for those that can.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

hillman said:


> "Barrettes" is funnier, though how they can be utilized with a 'highside' is unclear.




Yup. If you figure out how to use them, pics WILL be required....


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Thank U for your polite comments.


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## muckaleewarrior (Aug 10, 2014)

Teach them to use the force and build their own light sabres. The rest can just have clumsy blasters.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

hillman said:


> "Barrettes" is funnier, though how they can be utilized with a 'highside' is unclear.


Barrettes: They keep the beret on, during extreme exertions. Parachuting, for instance.

(Orthodox Jewish men use bobby pins. So why not barrettes for the Green Berets?)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

To answer the original question: Everybody gets a semi-auto, DA, DAO, or SA pistol in .45 ACP. Everybody uses the same magazine, so it's all interchangeable. Beyond that, choose your own gun and learn to use it.

And while we're at it... Almost everybody gets a _rifle_ in .308, and all of those rifles use the same magazine. Designated marksmen get "tweaked" rifles. Snipers get something bigger and nastier, for instance .338 Lapua, but the sniper team's equipment includes at least one .308 rifle and two pistols. Some people get sub-guns in .45 ACP.

Neither the Navy, the Coast Guard, nor the Air Force get to specify the battle equipment to be issued.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> <snip>
> 
> Neither the Navy, the Coast Guard, nor the Air Force get to specify the battle equipment to be issued.


Amen.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Steve there are some Navy men that might take offence at that. Naval Special Warfare units.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

tony pasley said:


> Steve there are some Navy men that might take offence at that. Naval Special Warfare units.


Not enough to beat-up all those Marines, though. :numbchuck:
And then there's the Army. :smt033

I think that NSW is outnumbered. :watching:


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> He's from east Texas for crying out loud. If you can't keep up with the pack, you need to move to the side and get the Hell outta the way for those that can.


:smt017


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

I would let the professionals select their own tools within reason.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Not enough to beat-up all those Marines, though. :numbchuck:
> And then there's the Army. :smt033
> 
> I think that NSW is outnumbered. :watching:


But smarter and more well trained.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Rifles/carbines stay the same as they are now. Everyone gets an optical sight in a Quick-Detachable mount and a second similar (backup) optical sight in a QD mount. Sight-in the backup sight, remove and store it in a carry pouch, sight-in the primary, leave it on the gun. Carry the backup sight if you need to deploy with the rifle/carbine.

All Berettas, SIGs and other non-Glock 9mm handguns get converted to Glock 19s. If you are SF/NSW, you can use any caliber/size Glock to meet your mission needs (suppressed, etc.), and can apply for a waiver to use other weapons if you have a clearly identifiable need that cannot be filled by a Glock (good luck with that). Folks with a need to carry something smaller than a G19 concealed can change to a sub-compact 9mm Glock 26 if they shoot expert with first the G19, and then maintain their expert shooter status with the smaller G26.

Combat and Security/Law Enforcement forces will qualify quarterly with their primary weapon(s), and semi-annually with any secondary weapons. Non-Combat/L.E. forces will qualify semi-annually with their primary weapon, and annually with any secondary weapon. I don't care if you're a nurse or a truck mechanic or a cook or a paper-pusher; the top line of your I.D. card says "Armed Forces" and you will damn sure be able to be armed at a moment's notice and be effective with that weapon. Or you will be replaced.

To prevent attacks on non-combat-zone military installations, 10 percent of the personnel on any base or post will draw and carry their issued firearm, loaded, on a daily basis. This internal security duty can be rotated on a daily basis, so the same folks need not be armed every day, but 10% of the people in every building/facility WILL be armed at all times -- period. Carry means carrying it, too; no parking it behind a desk and wandering away without it. Living with your firearm means you will know how to handle it if you need it on short notice. If you are not reliable/trustworthy/stable enough to draw and carry a gun in everyday life, then buh-bye, you're out of my military forces. Temporary waivers relating to medical or short-term mental challenges will be considered on a case-by-case basis; no long-term waivers will be issued.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

The Beretta M9A3 would be a good choice in my opinion. The M9 is not going anywhere for a good while, at least until the contract expires in 2017. Another good choice would be Beretta's PX4 Storm in 9mm or .45. My choices are subject to the head to head testing and trials on performance of course. May the best pistol win if in fact the DOD truly decides to follow through with a replacement.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

From what I've read, the MGS plans to replace the M9 in 2017, but there is no guarantee that the trials will be over by then. I do think it is going to be interesting to see what the Army chooses. My guess is that they have consulted the Royal British Army about the Glock 17 Gen4, and that S&W is working hard to produce a pistol that will fill the requirements. I think they are going to go with a striker fire gun this time. Which remains to be seen.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Y


GCBHM said:


> From what I've read, the MGS plans to replace the M9 in 2017, but there is no guarantee that the trials will be over by then. I do think it is going to be interesting to see what the Army chooses. My guess is that they have consulted the Royal British Army about the Glock 17 Gen4, and that S&W is working hard to produce a pistol that will fill the requirements. I think they are going to go with a striker fire gun this time. Which remains to be seen.


They will never go with a striker fired handgun. It's a cocked action firearm if a round is chambered . Never happen. IMO


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I don't like the Glockmeister Manufacturer. No this has nothing to do with the product but more something with the Company itself in Österreich (Austria) and how the Company deals with their employees.

But even if the Glock product is a good product I'll don't think the US should go with Glock or any foreign product.

Today I spend 3 hours on the Shooting Range where Smith & Wesson started a cruel attack to my saving account again. I shot the M&P 9 Pro with the 12.7 cm ( 5") barrel. Dang - and I had to order that gun, what actually is not justifiable because I already have a M&P 9 and one in 40. 

I'll think that there are many US products in the US that easy comped with the Glockmeister guns. Smith & Wesson is only one of them, if it really has to be a striker fired rubber gun. 

Argentina and their forces carrying Bersa equipment.
In Brasil they carry Taurus,
The Mexicans carry Smith & Wesson because they don't have a weapon industry.
Germany and France using the Swiss, France, German joint venture product SigSauer. 
The Italians Beretta
The US Beretta ..... Uuupppps.

Well everyone uses their own home grown manufacturers when it comes to such a insanely amount of contract that a weapon manufacturer becomes with the military gun order. This company hit the jack pot, won in the Lottery, made the big Bim-Bam.... short, - that is like a warranty card against going broke. 

I don't think that the United States of America should use a Österreichisches (Austria) product because the US has unemployed workers enough that really need all the support that they can get. Why should the US Taxpayer support a title Republic in the European Mountains, clamped between Germany, Italy, Swiss and Slovenia and turn their back on their own US Workforce. No just because Glockmeister build some weapons in the US is that not the same. Not in reality.

Based on experience in my daily business life, I really believe very strong, that the woman and men engineers and the US American workers can put a Sidearm together that every US Soldier, wherever s/he is deployed in the world, has all the reason to be proud of. The US should support their troops and their workforce.

The British? Well the British do all the time exactly the opposite from what others do. Even if it kills them, but they have to say No where others say Yes and so on. This way they ruined their Coal industry, than the Electric industry the Home appliance Industry..... and at the end even their Automobile Industry. They drive on the wrong side of the road, they refuse to participate in the Euro but complain that no one is listening to their money adjustment ideas...... The British Game being against everything that make sens goes on since at least 600 years and has some tragic comic in it.
No the British has everything not to be a ideal for the US Americans. No not the British please. 

Opinion off.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

pic said:


> Y
> 
> They will never go with a striker fired handgun. It's a cocked action firearm if a round is chambered . Never happen. IMO


Everyone I've talked with about this say they are going with a striker fire. In fact, I've heard some talk about STI making a striker fire 1911 for S&W.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/2/


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

When Beretta got the M9 contract back in the 1980s, they didn't have a factory here in the U.S., but one of the contract requirements was to set-up a factory here, if they won the bidding. If I remember correctly, the first two years of M9 production were Italian-made pistols, the third and fourth years' pistols were assembled here from Italian-made parts, and the fifth and all remaining years of the contract required all pistols and parts to be manufactured and assembled here.

Glock has been making pistols in the good old USA for several years now. Initially, they were made only for export, but for the last couple of years, more and more of the guns sold here have been made here in Glock's Smyrna, GA, factory. Here is a dual-shot close-up of the of the markings of the most recent addition to the Glock shelf in my safe:

Click link to see photo >>>


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yep! Would be really easy to supply the troops with Glocks.


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