# Answer to those who can't shoot handguns?



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

My dad was an infantry 1st Sgt. during the Korean War, and often found himself trying to teach 21 yo 2nd Lieutenants to shoot the Government Model .45 sidearm. He said that some of them were from city environments and just couldn't get it in the amount of time that the Army allotted for such things - in his particular case, immediately prior to going into a combat situation. It was for this particular category of young officers that the M-1 Carbine was invented, in his opinion. It was a very simple light recoiling carbine that was quite effective at short range...and most of all, anybody could learn to operate it effectively and safely, and hit a center of mass sized target at long pistol range, in about an hour.

In my opinion, this new release of the pistol caliber carbine, from Ruger, might be the home defense equivalent to what the M-1 Carbine was for the military.

New from Ruger: Pistol Caliber Carbine - The Truth About Guns










Opinions?


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Bisley said:


> My dad was an infantry 1st Sgt. during the Korean War, and often found himself trying to teach 21 yo 2nd Lieutenants to shoot the Government Model .45 sidearm. He said that some of them were from city environments and just couldn't get it in the amount of time that the Army allotted for such things - in his particular case, immediately prior to going into a combat situation. It was for this particular category of young officers that the M-1 Carbine was invented, in his opinion. It was a very simple light recoiling carbine that was quite effective at short range...and most of all, anybody could learn to operate it effectively and safely, and hit a center of mass sized target at long pistol range, in about an hour.
> 
> In my opinion, this new release of the pistol caliber carbine, from Ruger, might be the home defense equivalent to what the M-1 Carbine was for the military.
> 
> ...


I don't know? I think pistol calibers should be for pistols and SMG's. Rifle calibers for rifles. Me? I'd go for an AR or Mini 14 over that.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

A pistol-caliber rifle is indeed easier to hit with _at longer ranges_, but considering the closer ranges in the confines of a home, the extra length is not needed & is a disadvantage over a pistol. A handgun can be held close to the body where it is much harder to snatch than a barrel of a rifle.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

It is quite possible to miss a man-sized target across the length of a room with a handgun. It has been done many, many times. And if you have to engage an attacker down the length of a hallway, many people will miss with a handgun more often than they will hit. Nearly everyone is more accurate with a shoulder-mounted long gun than with a handgun. If you find yourself with a need to move room to room and around corners with a weapon, then a handgun is the logical choice. If you are hunkered down in a "safe" room, the same rules do not necessarily apply. 

I think a long gun makes a lot of sense for home defense for many people. Why a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle or shotgun? Many just can't control the recoil of a shotgun well enough to be accurate. An AR type rifle with 223 Remington or 5.56x45 mm ammo is pretty easy for most people to control and shoot well, but it is very loud. While it may be true that any firearm reasonable for self-defense can cause permanent hearing damage when fired in a confined area without hearing protection, there is loud and there is LOUD, and there is hearing damage and there is hearing damage.

For those who say a 9mm PCC has inadequate power for home self-defense, would you say the same for a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol? A 16" barrel can boost the muzzle velocity of a 124 grain 9 mm projectile up to near 357 SIG velocity and muzzle energy. The ability of the Ruger PCC to run with Ruger and Glock pistol mags mean that many would be able to use the same magazines for both their handgun and carbine, and consolidate on ammunition purchases. And a 32 round Glock magazine affords a lot of firepower without the need to reload.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Well, I own many handguns and several AR type rifles, and I'm probably going to buy one of these, just because it's a cool rifle and should be a good plinker for just messing around, or a good rifle to carry in a pickup. Yes, an AR-15 is far superior as a rifle, and I have one set up as a self defense type weapon. Yes, a pistol is great, if you can hit target with it, which I can. But this carbine is just a handy little fun gun that can double as an alternative to a pistol, and I guarantee that I can teach any woman in my family to hit a COM sized target at 15 yards, in about an hour. 

Some folks will never stick to a practice regimen that will make them a decent pistol shooter. These are the ones that may empty a magazine at an attacker, without hitting anything, or they may limp-wrist it, causing a jam. Hell, NYC policemen have done it multiple times. I just think a pistol caliber carbine is a handy tool to have around.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

win231 said:


> A pistol-caliber rifle is indeed easier to hit with _at longer ranges_, but considering the closer ranges in the confines of a home, the extra length is not needed & is a disadvantage over a pistol. A handgun can be held close to the body where it is much harder to snatch than a barrel of a rifle.


Finally, finally, finally.......someone who actually gets it. :smt038

Long guns are terrible for home defense. I've been saying that for as long as I can recall. Even still, there are those who will argue with you.


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## Tangof (Jan 26, 2014)

Well, I won't say which one is absolutely the best because people are different. I have a 13 shot Glock 21 at my bedside, also a eight shot 12 Gauge loaded with Turkey shot and No.4 Buck Shot. I'm comfortable with both. My Wife isn't. Long gun's don't interest Her at all, but she can hit with and is confident in a 12 shot CZ 82 in 9X18MM. A lot of people that buy gun's for self defense don't shoot handgun's enough to be competent with them. I wouldn't totally rule out a shotgun for some people. One Officer I knew just couldn't get his Wife even slightly adequate with a hand gun or shotgun. He final bought her a Ruger 10/22 with a 25 round magazine. She loved it, and could put a dozen holes center mass on a silhouette at 25 yards In a few seconds. Fit the tool to the job. (Or Person)


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

paratrooper said:


> Finally, finally, finally.......someone who actually gets it. :smt038
> 
> *Long guns are terrible for home defense.* I've been saying that for as long as I can recall. Even still, there are those who will argue with you.


Agreed. You'll not get an argument from me. I've got both as I'm sure many on this forum do. I never keep a rifle handy for home defense or a Joe Biden special. Most justifiable self defense situations will probably be at close range, usually under 21 feet. If you've got to use deadly physical force where only a rifle will do you may have some "splainin" to do. "But, but your honor, I had no choice but to shoot my attacker at 50 yards away". Unless maybe someone is shooting at you at that distance, see how well that stands up in court.

I can understand if an angry mob is approaching your home or business during the course of a riot or civil unrest where nothing less than an AR/AK type rifle will do. The pistol variants of those types of rifles may look cool, but are highly impractical as well. About the only way to shoot them comfortably is from the hip unless you use one of those arm braces. Even with one of those the weapon is still unwieldy. Unless you practice an awful lot, and I mean an awful lot, shooting from the hip or "spray and pray" is not the most accurate way of shooting a firearm. The chances of hitting a vital area are reduced and the chances of hitting something you didn't intend to hit are increased. Sights on a firearm do serve a purpose.

Same for those street legal short barreled shotguns such as the Mossberg "Shockwave" and Black Aces "DT-DTVS" series. Most people will probably not be able to handle the recoil of such weapons and they too will require a certain amount of practice to get used to. If you can't handle the recoil it's unlikely you'll practice with it very much.

Most people will probably be able to handle a mid or full sized 9mm pistol. It's one of the reasons that I believe that the military and police have adopted that type of weapon and caliber for their personnel. In which case for most people that may be the most practical choice for personal self defense at home or out on the street. As for me it's gotta' be a .45ACP for EDC along with a small "nine" or "forty" for pocket carry. I've got a few revolvers but their long heavy trigger pulls and limited capacity rule them out. I've also got a few full size "nines" and "forty's". Although I do on occasion, I rarely carry those, if you're gonna' carry something that size it might as well be a "forty five". I find that the Glock G30 or Springfield XDM 3.8 are an ideal size for concealed carry and home defense. In addition to their standard size magazines of either 9+1 or 10+1 you also have the option of 13+1 of .45ACP firepower.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

If you feel that you're going to need a gun for self-defense, it is generally true that a pistol is the best choice..._except_ that...
If you plan to use a pistol, you need to _learn how to use it_, and you need to _practice constantly with it_ to maintain your skills.
Without both competent instruction and consistent, useful practice, you would be better off with a baseball bat. (Shotguns require skill practice too.)

There are no miracle gadgets or magic shortcuts which will absolve you of the need to receive instruction and the need to practice, practice, practice.


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

I have a PCC that is used just as a range rifle, for some fun shooting. It stays in the safe when I'm at home, along with my other long guns. I keep handguns available in my home for easy access (when I'm not actually carrying one), I do not feel under-gunned in the least. 

I say; learn how to properly operate your handguns, and keep the PCC for the range! 

Just sayin"!! :smt102


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Pistol caliber carbines were made back in the 1800s because a person only need to carry 1 type of ammo when traveling. It was easier and weigh less for 1 caliber than several different calibers. Today they will fill a small niche for a few people and a great fun gun for others.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

win231 said:


> A pistol-caliber rifle is indeed easier to hit with _at longer ranges_, but considering the closer ranges in the confines of a home, the extra length is not needed & is a disadvantage over a pistol. *A handgun can be held close to the body where it is much harder to snatch than a barrel of a rifle.*


In college I wrote a paper about firearms and home defense and mentioned this very thing in my paper. I gave what I believed to be concrete arguments in favor of the handgun over a rifle in a home. There are other reasons to prefer the handgun for home defense as well. Power, muzzle blast, recoil (think shotgun), and some other particulars. Most all long guns are certainly more powerful than most handguns, but that can be a detriment.

Your best friend in the event of a breach of your home is to have a plan of action which all involved parties know well, have at least one firearm at the ready, and have the ability to use that firearm effectively in your's and your family's defense.

As for pistol caliber rifles, there is one little heard of gem that makes a very good little "stashable" rifle. It can be folded for storage or carry even in a briefcase, then unfolded if needed. The Kel-Tec SUB-2000 in either 9mm or .40S&W caliber. This little gun is great for having in your vehicle should you perceive the need to do so. Simple and accurate enough for the purpose for which it was intended. No frills with this one. I got mine maybe 15 plus years ago for $279 at a gun show. Uses Glock magazines (full size or extended) in 9mm and works great.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/rifles/sub-2000


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

The argument regarding what is the optimal home defense weapon has gone on for years. In my opinion, the argument is a bit silly, because owning one type of weapon certainly does not preclude owning other types, and what is ideal is going to depend on the circumstances. What might be best if you live alone in a private house might well not be the same if you live in a three bedroom apartment with 2 small children in separate bedrooms.

Many times, what is "best" will be whatever you can lay your hands on most quickly. Other times, it will be what you can shoot best with consistent accuracy. For those who might not have the time or inclination to train extensively, there is no doubt that many will have better accuracy with a red dot sight mounted on a long gun than they will with a handgun.

I have a number of handguns (mostly semi-auto pistols) ranging from 9 mm to .45 ACP at various places throughout my house. Nightstand weapon is a .45 ACP SIG Sauer full-size P320 and it is quite possible that if I was suddenly awakened by an intruder, that is what would be immediately at hand. If I needed to go room to room, and especially if I needed a hand free to open doors, use a phone, or hold a light, the obvious choice would be a handgun.

But assuming I had time to get to it, and was hunkered down in a static position, I would have a long gun in my hands, although I might have a handgun on my belt or next to me. My house is L-shaped with the main bedroom at the back with no outside entry from the back except windows. Anyone approaching it would have to come down a long corridor that offers a 15+ yard unobstructed field of fire. If I had my pump shotgun trained on that corridor, anyone charging down it to try to take my gun away would have at least sixteen 33 caliber holes in them before they got to me.

If you poll "experts" on the "ideal" home self-defense weapons, you will get answers all across the board. Here is one such example: http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2017/06/home-defense-gun/

And if you look at that article, check out Bill Wilson's choice (you know that champion pistol shooter guy who makes and sells high end model 1911s and Berettas). It is a 9 mm pistol caliber carbine.


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## AllenFromPa (Dec 4, 2017)

I have 3 pistol caliber carbines. I love them for plinking and varmints. For home defense a hand gun is my choice. For folks who are not good with pistols a shot gun i feel would be better for home defense.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

AllenFromPa said:


> I have 3 pistol caliber carbines. I love them for plinking and varmints. For home defense a hand gun is my choice. For folks who are not good with pistols a shot gun i feel would be better for home defense.


The only problem with a shotgun inside a house is that most folks don't seem to realize that you still have to aim at a small target, because the shot does not expand very much at 10-15 yards, even with an 18" improved cylinder barrel. You can't just 'point it west' and pull the trigger, as has been asserted in many TV shows. Likely, anything you can hit with a shotgun at indoor ranges, you can also hit with a 9mm carbine. The advantage to a shotgun, indoors, is that you are firing a devastating round from a platform that is easy to aim at a human sized target. By the same token, you can fire multiple rounds with a light recoiling carbine, and it, too, will be devastating, if 4-5 rounds hit center of mass.

It is a great topic for argument, and I'm enjoying it. But the reality is, as I see it, is that there are hundreds of possible scenarios in a home defense episode, and self-confidence is going to play a large part in every one of them. If a person feels more 'adequate' with a short rifle than with a pistol, it is a good option. Every one of us has an idea of the type of fight or flight scenario we would be most likely to face, and we are probably all wrong about many things in our plans for how to fight. The pistol carbine is a reasonable option for any type of confrontation except clearing rooms by jumping around corners or point blank confrontations.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

Just settle down and learn to shoot a pistol. Ya don't have any business owning guns if ya can't shoot a pistol! jmho


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Blackhawkman said:


> Just settle down and learn to shoot a pistol. Ya don't have any business owning guns if ya can't shoot a pistol! jmho


+1 to be sure.

I know more than one individual that has purchased a handgun for the first time, knows nothing about them, other than how to load and shoot them. Seems to be more common place than not.

I always recommend taking classes on shooting and liability issues in regards to self-defense. I pretty much get the response, _I don't have the time, and/or it's too expensive. _


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Blackhawkman said:


> Just settle down and learn to shoot a pistol. Ya don't have any business owning guns if ya can't shoot a pistol! jmho


I don't accept the idea that anyone who doesn't master a pistol deserves whatever he gets, if attacked. If you read about all of the incidents where an armed citizen has broken up a robbery or attack, you will find that a great many of the successful ones were not carried out by highly trained individuals who executed a perfect plan. Most of them that succeed are due to their will to fight back and firing shots at the perps that send them skittering away, often unhurt or with minor injuries.

Personally, I feel competent enough to defend myself with a handgun in many circumstances, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer a long gun in some situations, and maybe a baseball bat in others.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Here is a pretty good article that includes a breakdown diagram and accuracy testing for the new Ruger PCC:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/2/tested-ruger-s-pc-carbine-and-security-9-pistol/


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## Oldhand (Apr 4, 2017)

One thing not being considered is penetration. One of the things making the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor popular is the 410 shotgun round. I have seen a 9mm go through a person, then a door, pass three feet and through a wall. Glaser safety Slugs are also a good bet.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Oldhand said:


> One thing not being considered is penetration. One of the things making the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor popular is the 410 shotgun round....


I suggest sending a .410 load out against some drywall, to see what happens.
My (aged) memory believes that the wad from a .410 shot load can penetrate drywall. So can the shot column.



Oldhand said:


> ...Glaser safety Slugs are also a good bet.


I am not certain that Glaser Safety Slugs are sure fight stoppers or bag-guy droppers.
They _seem_ on the surface to be a good idea, though.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

For personal protection, I'd never use a Glaser Safety Slug.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

pblanc said:


> The argument regarding what is the optimal home defense weapon has gone on for years. In my opinion, the argument is a bit silly, because owning one type of weapon certainly does not preclude owning other types, and what is ideal is going to depend on the circumstances. What might be best if you live alone in a private house might well not be the same if you live in a three bedroom apartment with 2 small children in separate bedrooms.
> 
> Many times, what is "best" will be whatever you can lay your hands on most quickly. Other times, it will be what you can shoot best with consistent accuracy. For those who might not have the time or inclination to train extensively, there is no doubt that many will have better accuracy with a red dot sight mounted on a long gun than they will with a handgun.
> 
> ...


i was hunkered down , I couldn't believe how heavy that handgun became. I kept the hand guns, but switched over to a long gun cocked and propped up. 
It became necessary as fatigue set in. And my ability to accurately shoot the handgun was slipping away. 
Test yourself in a 45 minute hunkered down situation . The scenario included being hunkered down waiting and staring at the entry point of the intruder . FATIGUE can be a factor.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Fight or flight can be an issue for some. For me, it's always been clearly defined. 

I won't hunker down and wait for the fight to come to me. It's just not my nature. Long guns require the use of both hands. Sure, there's a place for long guns and I have my fair share of them. 

I know how to clear rooms, buildings and large structures. I know my home better than anyone. I know where the light switches are, I know what to avoid knocking over in pitch black conditions, and approx. how many steps it is from point A to point B. 

If by some odd chance, I do physically engage an intruder, I want my left hand / arm free to push, punch, shove, strike, or choke. You cannot do that holding a long gun. 

Since my home is only about 1400 sq. ft., I don't have any long hallways to be concerned about and how a rifle would be more effective.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

paratrooper said:


> Fight or flight can be an issue for some. For me, it's always been clearly defined.
> 
> I won't hunker down and wait for the fight to come to me. It's just not my nature. Long guns require the use of both hands. Sure, there's a place for long guns and I have my fair share of them.
> 
> ...


I understand, I was on the first floor and didn't feel comfortable when I noticed a window penetration. 
Right then I felt disadvantaged. Was I being scoped from an outside window on the first floor??? Windows became my vulnerability, my weakness, it was dark out side. 
My instincts told me I was at a disadvantage downstairs. I quickly moved upstairs taking the windows out of the equation or threat.. And because of the breached window I had to fortify upstairs


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

*Personally I prefer using these.............*


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Oldhand said:


> One thing not being considered is penetration. One of the things making the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor popular is the 410 shotgun round. I have seen a 9mm go through a person, then a door, pass three feet and through a wall. Glaser safety Slugs are also a good bet.


A .410 'self defense' round fired through a pistol-length rifled barrel is unlikely to be lethal at distances beyond 10 yards. It can be, but usually isn't. For one thing, the rifling in these handguns cause a hole in the center of the pattern that gets bigger with more distance, and the other thing is that large pellets fired from a .410 handgun don't penetrate very deeply, beyond 5-10 yards. Granted that any sane person who gets shot with one should be scared shitless, and would likely leave the scene, post haste. But, that doesn't make it a highly desirable self defense platform to me, because I don't count on my potential attackers to be sane, sober, and free of drugs. A sober analysis of self defense tactics has to entertain the thought that lethal force may be necessary to stop some attackers. The tests I've read of .410's fired from rifled pistol barrels and Glaser slugs don't consistently show an ability to accomplish that in every likely confrontation...in my opinion.

As for over penetration from a 9mm with 16" barrel, such a 9mm self defense round will approximate a .357 magnum handgun round. So, if you live in a small apartment or a tightly packed subdivision, this can be a concern, but not one that differs from that of using any powerful handgun. You always have to be cognizant of what is behind your target, and also need to understand that any off-target rounds you fire are more dangerous than the over-penetrations, which are partially spent before they pass through walls.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Just recently here in AZ., near Pine, some contractors dug up some Claymore Mines, C-4 explosives and some deck cord. There were also some "clackers" as well, but they weren't mentioned.

According to authorities, these items had been buried in heavy plastic tubes for a period of about 20 yrs.

Nothing says you are very serious about protecting your home more than having a few Claymores positioned here and there.

https://www.pvtrib.com/news/2018/jan/05/stolen-military-explosives-found-buried-pine-arizo/


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## Oldhand (Apr 4, 2017)

paratrooper said:


> For personal protection, I'd never use a Glaser Safety Slug.


The reason I mentioned them was that they are designed to use entire energy on the person shot. Actual results were reported to appear a shotgun was used. The point is not to go through a wall and harm those not intended as targets.


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## Tip (Aug 22, 2012)

There’s always the Ruger Charger spray and pray method. Yeah, it’s a .22 but not many folks will advance into a stream of shots coming at them regardless of caliber. A charger and a couple 25 round mags can send a serious message.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

It's great to have so many options. I have a glock 17 or 19 close by for home defense like those because wife can shoot them as well. For my shotgun choice Mossberg 590 with 18" barrel and magpul SGA stock (very ergonomic). Just to be sure all bases are covered a tavor x95 w/ aimpiont ACO 26 1/4" OAL and can be shot easily one handed.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Tip said:


> There's always the Ruger Charger spray and pray method. Yeah, it's a .22 but not many folks will advance into a stream of shots coming at them regardless of caliber. A charger and a couple 25 round mags can send a serious message.


If your opponent is high on one or more of several drugs, even light-caliber hits won't stop him.
A .22 is better than nothing, but you've got to be able to make accurate hits...in the eyes, for instance...with it.
The spray-and-pray technique merely wastes ammunition, and lends you the illusions that you don't need something more powerful and that you don't need to practice enough to be able to shoot accurately under severe pressure.

What do we call people who believe that spray-and-pray will do the job?
We call them "maimed" or "dead."


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

One thing about a PCC - my Hi-Point *45* anyway, is that it ain't loud enough indoors to deafen me. It ain't all that long either. Loaded with ARX it doesn't over-penetrate so much either. I still prefer a 45 auto handgun for in-the-home sd, but I can actually hit what I'm aiming at when it's that close. And - if Ruger comes out with a 45 auto version of the PCC before I check out, I'm gonna get one. And - feel the need to add another 'either'.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

*This is guaranteed to work, even with your eyes closed...........*


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...But it's not too good for the house.
Maybe start smaller, with, for instance, a Zippo lighter and a fart


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...But it's not too good for the house.
> Maybe start smaller, with, for instance, a Zippo lighter and a fart


Can of hair spray and a Zippo........


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

A can of long range wasp spray is a pretty good substitute for pepper spray. That's good, since it doesn't kill wasps worth a damn (in hot weather, when they are most aggressive).


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...But it's not too good for the house.
> Maybe start smaller, with, for instance, a Zippo lighter and a fart


Don't forget the can of Lysol! :anim_lol:


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

After re-reading this entire thread, I get the idea that those who are most against a long gun for self defense seem to think they know what kind of scenario they will be in. Personally, I believe strongly in Murphy's Law, that anything that can go wrong, will go wrong. So, I don't let myself be lulled into a false sense of security. A self defense scenario has about a thousand ways to go sideways, so I think I won't be terribly surprised if it does.

The scenario I fear the most has always been the suicide shooters like the Luby's Massacre, in the late '80's, or any of the mass shootings that have occurred in small buildings against unarmed innocents. But, the carbine would not apply in that situation because you wouldn't have it. So, I try not to get locked in on it, or any of the inside-the-house scenarios where I would have to be clearing rooms. In fact, I would not do that, at all, unless I had to rescue someone else, in which case, I think a pistol might be best.

I personally believe a long gun is practical for anything beyond about seven yards or so, yet I am still confident with a standard sized pistol at 15 to 25 yards. If I buy the carbine and like it, I will probably keep it handy inside the house, just in case I need to arm my wife, who can shoot a revolver a little bit, but never does. She likes to shoot my AR's, and is pretty good with them under 50 yards, with standard 'iron sights,' so I expect her to really enjoy a 9mm carbine. I'll post back with my observations if I do indeed buy one. They aren't even on the shelves, yet, to any great extent.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

There are a few early reviews of this carbine on rugerforum dot net. The Ruger carbine seems a bit on the heavy side, a little heavier than most ARs. It is about a half pound heavier than the Hi-Point 995TS 9 mm carbine that I play around with. That carbine seems just a little on the heavy side but is quite manageable.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *If your opponent is high on one or more of several drugs, even light-caliber hits won't stop him.*
> A .22 is better than nothing, but you've got to be able to make accurate hits...in the eyes, for instance...with it.
> The spray-and-pray technique merely wastes ammunition, and lends you the illusions that you don't need something more powerful and that you don't need to practice enough to be able to shoot accurately under severe pressure.
> 
> ...


As many of them are. People need to take into consideration that in addition to getting you wasted, a lot of those drugs are meant to kill pain. In addition to possibly getting you maimed, killed, or at the very least wasting ammo, spray and pray is probably one of the most reckless things you could do. Once those bullets leave the barrel there ain't no way they're comin' back.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

desertman said:


> As many of them are. People need to take into consideration that in addition to getting you wasted, a lot of those drugs are meant to kill pain. In addition to possibly getting you maimed, killed, or at the very least wasting ammo, spray and pray is probably one of the most reckless things you could do. *Once those bullets leave the barrel there ain't no way they're comin' back.*


It should be unnecessary to add (but just possibly may help), bullets are not guided missiles and are not sentient, will kill the innocent without regard or regret. _The shooter_ has to guide the gun, and supply the sentience.


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

Bisley said:


> My dad was an infantry 1st Sgt. during the Korean War, and often found himself trying to teach 21 yo 2nd Lieutenants to shoot the Government Model .45 sidearm. He said that some of them were from city environments and just couldn't get it in the amount of time that the Army allotted for such things - in his particular case, immediately prior to going into a combat situation. It was for this particular category of young officers that the M-1 Carbine was invented, in his opinion. It was a very simple light recoiling carbine that was quite effective at short range...and most of all, anybody could learn to operate it effectively and safely, and hit a center of mass sized target at long pistol range, in about an hour.
> 
> In my opinion, this new release of the pistol caliber carbine, from Ruger, might be the home defense equivalent to what the M-1 Carbine was for the military.
> 
> ...


I like it, and I think that it would make a good house gun, or a good general purpose self defense weapon. And I agree with what you have said. I see that some don't think that it would be good for in the house, but I think that it would be fine for that. I can think of a scenario where a bad guy might grab the barrel; but, that that might make it easier to put a bullet in him. It would deliver a powerful butt stroke, but a man must train himself to deliver those; and have the right mindset.
And it would be a great truck/trunk gun.


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## Slowalkintexan (Feb 6, 2007)

Two things.....years ago in a small Texas town there was an old timer who carried a shotty with him everywhere. Fortunately the sheriff or local police had other things to be concerned about.
]

Second...Who said,,,A pistol is only good to get to your rifle or shotgun.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The Ruger PC series of pistol cartridge rifles is not new though this new iteration does have some features the original ones did not have. The original Ruger PC rife was introduced over 20 years ago. I bought a PC4 at a gun show in the mid 90's. It was chambered for the .40S&W cartridge and was very accurate. Sold it a while back but wish I had kept it.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Slowalkintexan said:


> ...Who said, "A pistol is only good to get to your rifle or shotgun."?


Might've been Colonel Cooper.
Might've been Clint Smith.

For sure, it wasn't me.
I'm still pretty good with a pistol.


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## Babbalou1956 (Sep 2, 2014)

One possible compromise may be a carbine with a pistol grip. Less shootable than using a shoulder stock but easier than a pistol. You could still turn around in a hallway without banging into the walls. Maybe a laser, tritium sight or fiber optic sight. Out of a 16" barrel the 9mm is making 400-600 FPE ( Ballistics by the inch ) Enough to save my life without blowing out my eardrums like an AR-15. Imagine shooting one of those in a bedroom without hearing protection, 2 or 3 times. But someone who can't shoot a pistol straight just needs to keep practicing until they can & maybe get an instructor. Anyone who still can't hit center mass at 7-10 yards with a full size pistol after 1,000 rounds may need to see an optometrist.


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