# New to handguns; full size + subcompact or compact + .22 conversion, etc.



## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm interested in purchasing a handgun (my first) and trying to work out the best approach in terms of gun(s) best suited for my intended purpose.

The gun would be for home defense, self-defense (I'll get a concealed carry permit) and range use. I'm not a big guy, and figured that for concealed carry, I'll want something fairly small and light, which I understand might not be the most fun to shoot at the range. So I was thinking maybe a full size pistol (leaning toward 9mm semi-auto) for home defense and majority of range shooting, and a subcompact 9mm for CC.

Then I started thinking about ammo. From what I've read, it seems 9mm ammo is 4-5x the cost of .22lr. Given that I'd like to become proficient and not skimp on range time due to ammo costs, it seems I'd be well served by having the ability to shoot .22 ammo, especially early on in my shooting. And given that I want my range time with a .22 to carry over to my self defense pistol, it seems I should go with either a pistol that can be easily converted to shoot .22 (and easily converted back), or two pistols that are very similar, one chambered for 9mm, the other for .22.

And I'd like a reliable, quality semi-auto from one of the reputable makers, so I'm leaning toward manufacturers like S&W, Beretta, Glock, Sig, etc., and away from the lower end.

All good so far, but here's where I have to start making tough choices. I don't have the budget for a full size, a subcompact and conversion kits (or .22 variants) for both. At the same time, I'm worried that the size and weight of a compact might prove to be too burdensome for everyday carry.

Whew. That's a long post. Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts on this.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

Welcome... you've posted a common question, and I have a common reply that I began using several years ago......

This is strictly my opinion, and has worked in many years of firearms training, and for men and ladies alike. Buy a handgun just like you would buy a pair of shoes. If Ol' Joe over here says he likes Charlie China tennis shoes, and you're looking for a new pair of shoes, do you run out and buy Joe's pick, just because HE likes 'em? Probably not. If a new shooter is asking what to buy for a carry gun, it doesn't matter what works for me, or anyone else. I suggest telling that new shooter to go to many gun shops, and/or gun shows, and handle all the guns they can get hold of. Just like they would try on shoes. Before long they'll be able to make a list of guns that feel ok, pretty good, real good, and "that really feels great in my hands". The last two are the ones to pursue, and here's why I say that....
If a given handgun doesn't feel "right" in your hands, you'll not shoot it enough to become proficient with it, because it's not comfortable, and you won't like shooting it. Just like you rarely wear shoes that are UNcomfortable. If you're not gonna become proficient with it, save your money, and buy a ball bat to carry. *With proper training, and fundamentals, he/she can learn to shoot almost any handgun, or any caliber.* Very few folks can re-train their hands to make just any handgun feel comfortable. The last suggestion.........proper shooting techinques, practiced slowly, but proficiently, will breed speed. Do it slowly, and do it the right way, every time.......If you practice speed first, and introduce less efficient techniques into your training, you'll have to do it all over again to get it right.

By the way..... anyone who introduces a new shooter to our pastime by having them start with a large-caliber handgun, makes a very poor decision. Yes, some folks do ok starting out with large calibers, but the vast majority will not continue to shoot if their very 1st experience is with .50 S&W. Start with a .22 caliber something, and as your technique/accuracy improves, work up from there. Caliber doesn't count until after you can hit your target.

There always will be a trade-off..... light weight, more recoil...... shorter barrel, more recoil... just sayin....

Again, just my ramblings.... but they work for me...

Shoot Safely....


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

You might want to consider a Sig P series pistol for your quality home defense weapon with a .22 kit for practice and when your concealed permit comes then choose that weapon then .....the advice above from usmcj is excellent.....JJ


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## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

What are examples of compact 9mm pistols that offer .22 conversion kits or have very similar models that are chambered in .22?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

beararms said:


> What are examples of compact 9mm pistols that offer .22 conversion kits or have very similar models that are chambered in .22?


Glock 19 + *Advantage Arms .22 Kit*
Sig Sauer P229 w/ *Sig Conversion Kit*
CZ 75 Compacts w/ *Kadet Conversion Kit*


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## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> Glock 19 + *Advantage Arms .22 Kit*
> Sig Sauer P229 w/ *Sig Conversion Kit*
> CZ 75 Compacts w/ *Kadet Conversion Kit*


Thanks, these will be at the top of my list of pistols to try.

Does S&W make a compact 9mm that can be converted to .22?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

beararms said:


> Thanks, these will be at the top of my list of pistols to try.
> 
> Does S&W make a compact 9mm that can be converted to .22?


They do have an M&P .22 Pistol, not sure what size it's for.


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## 500Benz (Dec 7, 2011)

Anybody else on the site really endorse shooting .22?

Had some .22s in all types of formats (rifle, autos, revolvers) and just doesn't seem
helpful to be skillful in shooting a 22 and then carrying a 9mm platform.

I don't think .22 shooting will really translate into 9mm firing as far as accuracy and precision go.

But thats just my opinion. What do other members think.

_Athough 9mms are more expensive and the round is slightly more expensive, 
its still relatively cheap to shoot (100 for 16.99 bucks sometimes at walmart.) 
Defensively it stacks up well enough, and is funner to shoot than 22 IMO _


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Trigger control is the most important part of shooting. Learning to control the trigger on a .22 will be very beneficial in learning control of any weapon. Learning to handle your weapon and having confidence is paramount. Just taking a gun out and pulling the trigger is one thing/ Making it hit what you hope too is another. I endorse using a .22 and I find folly in anyone who dismisses it's effectiveness in teaching proper technique.

RCG


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

Just my opinion but as a man in this world and for my money, a 9mm for training purposes is sufficient and can also be used as a defensive handgun. If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm and sufficiently learn stances and trigger control, then don't own guns. Im buy things for the utility of them and .22 for me at least have no utility.

I can see for plinking a .22 is good for like economical shooting if you like to shoot alot, but that is the only purpose for .22 in my opinion. That and zombies...lol


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

I'd bet that fundamentals are most often taught with .22 caliber firearms than any other caliber. Stance, grip, and trigger control are most easily taught/learned with a firearm that has little to no recoil. Once a shooter becomes proficient (but most often before proficiency is obatained) then fundamentals can translate to larger calibers.


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## 500Benz (Dec 7, 2011)

For beginners a 22 is a no brainer, but I'd say anyone considering carrying should be proficient in their caliber of choice for self defense, rather than play with .22s


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

...again.... most folks become proficient in fundamentals with a .22.... then move up in caliber.. Play with .22's ? Well the Israeli's were/are very efficient "playing" with .22's. One who is not proficient with a given tool rarely recognizes how effective that tool can be.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

For your information Benz...

Feel Free to try to convince others that .22's are only to be played with. I know better, as do most folks.

Tactical-Life.com » Israeli Mossad .22 LRS
Israeli Ruger 10/22 Suppressed Sniper Rifle




> For instance the Mossad (the Israeli's CIA) uses the .22 caliber round (a very weak, nearly harmless round) as a 'signature' weapon in assassinations. A .22 round is nearly harmless and it takes great skill to use it to kill with.


 Fire Fight Dynamics


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## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

500Benz said:


> _Athough 9mms are more expensive and *the round is slightly more expensive*,
> its still relatively cheap to shoot (100 for 16.99 bucks sometimes at walmart.) _


Only slightly? I was under the impression that 9mm rounds are roughly 4x more expensive than .22. Is that incorrect?


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Just my opinion but as a man in this world and for my money, a 9mm for training purposes is sufficient and can also be used as a defensive handgun. If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm and sufficiently learn stances and trigger control, then don't own guns. Im buy things for the utility of them and .22 for me at least have no utility.
> 
> I can see for plinking a .22 is good for like economical shooting if you like to shoot alot, but that is the only purpose for .22 in my opinion. That and zombies...lol


Well having an opinion is one thing but actually knowing stuff is quit another thing. Especially when the opinion is as flawed and the proof uses zombies.

The "if you can't shoot a 9 don't own a gun" attitude is .....I guess your opinion. It is not the opinion of someone with knowelege, experiance or reasoning. It's cool that you own some Glocks and that you like the big caliber guns and your buddy has a bunch of bullets. That makes you experts only in your eyes. If you can't see the advantage of the correct tool in the correct situation, you still have many things to learn. It sounds like my opinion, it's not. It is the way it is.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

jakeleinen1 said:


> If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm and sufficiently learn stances and trigger control, then don't own guns.


That sir, is a foolish statement.

Sounds like a valid reason to "remain silent and let others think you a fool, rather than to speak and remove all doubt".


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

recoilguy said:


> Trigger control is the most important part of shooting. Learning to control the trigger on a .22 will be very beneficial in learning control of any weapon. Learning to handle your weapon and having confidence is paramount. Just taking a gun out and pulling the trigger is one thing/ Making it hit what you hope too is another. I endorse using a .22 and I find folly in anyone who dismisses it's effectiveness in teaching proper technique.
> 
> RCG


couldn't agree more
those three other fingers do need to be trained not to pull your shot off
controlling the thumb and trigger finger is one thing - those other three can be a nuisance until the muscle memory is learned


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## 500Benz (Dec 7, 2011)

They did decomission those guns after reading the article. Something to be said of that.

But everyone is right that 
-it kills like any bullet
-cheap, gives practice
-ect. ect.

I still maintain its best to practice with the calibers you carry and its cool if you have a 22 or whatever. 
I just don't think many ppl carry .22 so why be proficient, its already a pretty accurate round anyway.

If your carrying a 9mm, get it in with a 9mm at the range.

Lastly, my accuracy and precision with a .22 ruger, say, won't translate well
if I'm carrying a subcompact .40/9/.45 ect. I guess thats my only point to add the conversation.

.22s have advantages, but who carrys a .22?


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

A.22 handgun is a hand gun.....it works by pulling the trigger to make the weapon fire. It has a sight plain, and a front sight, a rear sight, a trigger, a handle, and holds bullets. You must aim the .22 correctly, maintain control of the sight plain and press the trigger to the rear with out altering your point of aim. The recoil from a .22 happens after the trigger is pulled the bullet leaves the .22 handgun after the trigger is pulled. You must reaquire the target to make shot #2. If you anticipate the recoil from a .22 you will not effectively perform a controlled trigger pull

A 9mm handgun is a hand gun.....it works by pulling the trigger to make the weapon fire. It has a sight plain, and a front sight, a rear sight, a trigger, a handle, and holds bullets. You must aim the 9mm correctly, maintain control of the sight plain and press the trigger to the rear with out altering your point of aim. The recoil from a 9mm happens after the trigger is pulled the bullet leaves the 9mm handgun after the trigger is pulled. You must reaquire the target to make shot #2
If you anticipate the recoil from a 9mm you will not effectively perform a controlled trigger pull.

Your accuracy should translate very well if you do both properly. If it does not my guess is you are accurate with neither, consistantly. Granted, there are some differeances......... I have a friend who carries a .22. Quigg is his name, he is a biker buddy of mine. If you ask him about shooting a .22 his standard response is "it won't blow your arm off but if you think you can survive 10 stabs in the chest with a 6" long phillips screw driver, come in my house without asking. My wife at times carries a .22. If you tried to car jack her you would have 5 small holes in you in less then 2 seconds. I bet you wouldn't even have time to say ouch. If she was armed with her Kahr the holes would be bigger and maybe a second slower but either way the accuracy would translate into her keeping her car but having too get it cleaned.

RCG


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

tumbleweed


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

so the most common caliber in the world has "no utility" for some and is used as a very effective training aide for others? 

i guess i would take a look at the experience of the owners of those opinions and decide who to learn from.

the .22 may not be the best defense weapon you can find, but it IS better than a bat or an axe or a rock..... and as a survival weapon it has few peers. it can easily be carried, along with 1000s of rounds of ammo. while it may not be the most effective, it WILL take down big game. and in a SHTF scenario its a great gun to get a better gun with. easily suppressed and very accurate. 

so it will teach you
feed you
defend you 
and get you a better gun

and yet it has NO utility? except for zombies? :roll:



like i said, people will tell you everything you need to know about themselves if you just pay attention.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

> and yet it has NO utility? except for zombies? :roll:


Whenever your position is indefensible, you call in the zombies..... :smt1099


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i guess i shouldnt take it personally considering that there is an entire generation whose experiences are based on an rpg (NOT a rocket propelled grenade) ..... not real world experience but opinions offered up in a cloud of clove cigarette smoke and sipping lattes while feeling oppressed by "the man" cause they cut the funding for "saving the rain forests by a multicultural student exchange of glbtvrg peoples of all races" 

zombies must seem to be a real threat.... thank god i will not be around to see these people become our future leaders.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

You zombaphobe.........I agree 100% with your post 3 back. Nicely played sir!

RCG


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

recoilguy said:


> That makes you experts only in your eyes. If you can't see the advantage of the correct tool in the correct situation, you still have many things to learn. It sounds like my opinion, it's not. It is the way it is.


Haha this thread is hilarious, and blown out of proportion

The zombies thing was a joke but i guess only the young can enjoy humor. If you wanna talk about experts they aren't training with .22 bro.... Thats a fact. Who are the experts? I'm talking law enforcement, military, etc. guys who actually use the guns not just recreationally.

Now will training with a .22 help you? Of course... Will training with a non-gun or a totally plastic non-firing pistol help as well? Yeah
The point is that training always helps. But the NEED for a .22 is outmatched by the fact that the other calibers out there destroy it simply because they are more useful and practically applied in the real world whereas the .22 is not.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

> But the NEED for a .22 is outmatched by the fact that the other calibers out there destroy it simply because they are more useful and practically applied in the real world whereas the .22 is not.


Read the original post... *New to handguns* ... get it? here's some more of the original post....


> Then I started thinking about ammo. From what I've read, it seems 9mm ammo is 4-5x the cost of .22lr. Given that I'd like to become proficient and not skimp on range time due to ammo costs, it seems I'd be well served by having the ability to shoot .22 ammo, especially early on in my shooting. And given that I want my range time with a .22 to carry over to my self defense pistol, it seems I should go with either a pistol that can be easily converted to shoot .22 (and easily converted back), or two pistols that are very similar, one chambered for 9mm, the other for .22.


Hence the reason training and .22's were suggested. It's rarely successful to start a NEW SHOOTER out on larger calibers... oh, wait... this has already been discussed, and logic explained.... but you obviously didn't get it then either. Best of luck to ya.


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

Just in Case! - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc 
Zombie Max Ammunition..


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

Getting back to the practical side of this discussion, I own a S&W 15-22 and use it for practice as the controls are identical to the (3) AR 15s I also own, when I transition the time spent shows up in proficiency and the cost difference to train is huge.....JJ


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

chessail77 said:


> Getting back to the practical side of this discussion, I own a S&W 15-22 and use it for practice as the controls are identical to the (3) AR 15s I also own, when I transition the time spent shows up in proficiency and the cost difference to train is huge.....JJ


This is exactly what works best. Thank you chessail77 for your input. This is one of the reasons I have a Sig 1911 chambered in .22, and precisely why my wife has a Bersa Thunder .22 to pair up with her Bersa Thunder .380....


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## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

So how much more expensive, on average, is 9mm ammo than .22 ammo because an earlier poster made it sound like it was only "slightly" more expensive.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

It depends on the quality of the ammunition. Rimfire plinking ammo can be bought for a little as $20 for a box of 500 rounds... 9mm I've seen as low as $108 for 500 rounds. (eastern bloc steel cased)...

Rimfire match ammo can be expensive... like Lapua Midas +... $157 for 500 rounds... Champion's Choice - Detail1 - 420162 - Lapua Midas + .22LR Match Ammunition (per 100 Rounds) - Ammunition - Champion's Choice

Hornady Steel Match 9mm ammo is $210 for 500 rounds... Champion's Choice - Detail1 - H90275 - HORNADY STEEL MATCH AMMO 9MM LUGER 125 Gr. HAP (50) - Ammunition - Champion's Choice

Prices vary, but higher quality costs more, and you may well find better prices here and there.....


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## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

usmcj said:


> It depends on the quality of the ammunition. Rimfire plinking ammo can be bought for a little as $20 for a box of 500 rounds... 9mm I've seen as low as $108 for 500 rounds. (eastern bloc steel cased)...


OK, it sounds like .22 ammo is generally sufficiently less expensive that it makes sense to have a way (either conversion kit or similar styled pistol chambered in .22) to shoot .22 for bulk of practice when your primary pistol is a 9mm.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

beararms, ...That's the way I see it, but obviously, some see it differently. YOU have to choose what works for you, and your wallet, then be glad you have the choice. I believe that to have the same platform chambered in .22 for most training, and your preferred caliber for carry, and supplemental training, is the best mix of cost and proficiency. In the end, it's up to the individual.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

recoilguy said:


> You zombaphobe.........I agree 100% with your post 3 back. Nicely played sir!
> 
> RCG


yvw


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

:smt179:smt169


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

Is a zombie a democrat who hasn't had his latte yet ????


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## ronmail65 (Jan 18, 2011)

The first advice I give to all new prospective first handgun owners is to take an NRA handgun safety course (if you haven't done so already) and then try to find a range that rents guns and try as many as you can. Then, research the guns for reliability, potential issues, price, etc... on this website and others. Then you'll be in a position to make a well-informed decision and be a safe user/owner.

On to your questions... I like your approach of using a 22LR for practice as a beginner and for fun. It's good for reasons mentioned by others (trigger practice, site alignment), but it's generally not a recommended caliber for defense. 9mm is good for defense, but there are some who may disagree. Another nice thing about 9mm is that the ammo is plentiful and inexpensive compared to just about everything but 22. *A note of a caution:* you must split your practice time with the 22LR and the 9mm (or whatever caliber you choose). Recoil, time to regain site alignment and other factors will be quite different -- even with the same gun in combo. You need to be prepared.

I would also recommend learning/getting your first experience with a compact (NOT a sub-compact) or full size gun. Then look into smaller guns for concealed carry once you gain some proficiency and experience. I think sub-compact or mouse guns would be more challenging and less enjoyable to a beginner who is trying to acquire good fundamental skills.

I personally went down a similar path as you and purchased 2 separate guns; a 9mm and a 22LR. And, just recently, have become interested in smaller guns for better concealment. My brother is just now going down the same path and he is considering the EAA Witness 9mm and 22LR combo on Bud's for $419. It seems like a great deal. And from what I can tell, EAA has a pretty good reputation. I started a thread a day or two ago to start collecting opinions from others. You might want to search for it and see what others have to say about EAA if you're interested.

If I had it to do all over again (knowing what I know now), I'd seriously consider this EAA deal. The Glocks, Sigs, and others for which you can purchase conversion kits will end up costing you at least double what this EAA deal is going to cost. Arguably, you may end up with a higher quality gun by going with Glock or Sig -- it depends how much you want to spend (or save) at this point.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

I would be very hard pressed to assume you end up with a higher quality gun if you go with Glock or Sig. EAA Tangfolio is a very good weapon and in most models an excellent one. 

RCG


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## beararms (Dec 5, 2011)

ronmail65 said:


> The first advice I give to all new prospective first handgun owners is to take an NRA handgun safety course (if you haven't done so already) and then try to find a range that rents guns and try as many as you can. Then, research the guns for reliability, potential issues, price, etc... on this website and others. Then you'll be in a position to make a well-informed decision and be a safe user/owner.
> 
> On to your questions... I like your approach of using a 22LR for practice as a beginner and for fun. It's good for reasons mentioned by others (trigger practice, site alignment), but it's generally not a recommended caliber for defense. 9mm is good for defense, but there are some who may disagree. Another nice thing about 9mm is that the ammo is plentiful and inexpensive compared to just about everything but 22. *A note of a caution:* you must split your practice time with the 22LR and the 9mm (or whatever caliber you choose). Recoil, time to regain site alignment and other factors will be quite different -- even with the same gun in combo. You need to be prepared.
> 
> ...


Yes, I plan to take a course first. And yeah, I've heard that subcompact is not a good first firearm.

Thanks, I'll check out the EEA thread.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Who are the experts? I'm talking law enforcement, military, etc. guys who actually use the guns not just recreationally.


Oh, you mean the guys NOT paying for their own ammo....gotcha'

During the post election ammo shortage a lot of carbine classes being taught by "the experts" were done with students using .22 conversion kits etc.

There's a lot of good to be had from owning a .22 kit.

Beararms,

Once you get your gear and start putting it to good use, check out this article for some tips on the conversion kit as a training aid.

*pistol-training.com » .22 Training Pistols: Pros & Cons*


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

I went to my LGS last night with a good buddy of mine, and the LGS had the exact EAA Tang 9mm/22lr kit you are describing. He has it listed at $529 the best deal he would give me was $479. He would not go any lower. It is a good kit, my buddy bought it when we were there for the $479. We are going to the range tonite to give it a whirl. Basically 2 guns for $479 hard to beat that. 

RCG


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