# Kimber is throwing empties at my head...



## ajlandis

Have a super carry pro hd. Gun shoots very well and have had no issues with function. Only problem is it ejects the empties in an arc that comes back toward my head, instead of out to the side. Several have hit me square in the forehead. I don't dare shoot the gun without glasses. Anyone have a similar issue? Is it something kimber would consider unacceptable and fix under warranty?


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## rex

Technically the gun functions per original design but fir something that costs that much and is marketed as 'the best',it isn't right.They may correct it if you call them and it's still in wrranty,a call will cure that up.If they will,don't be surprised if it comes back better but still goofy.I've followed quite a few sent back and only be 1/2 fixed or a new problem,from what I see they just drop in the extractor and ship it,if they can't get it out the door working I have marginal faith that maybe only 1 or 2 people there know enough or care enough to really build a 1911 beyond assembling parts.

What caliber and barrel length?A shortie should have an extended ejector so the tuning of it could be the main issue.The extractor tension,profile and clocking (twisting in the hole) can cause or aggrevate it.Slide speed and port shape/brass bouncing off it can do it also but not as common on fullsize ports like they use.


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## ajlandis

.45, 4"


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## rex

If it can be warranteed call them to discuss it and a repair timeframe,free is better than paying someone or learning on your carry piece.

Look at the ejector,it should be extended and have an extension on the top sticking in the magwell.Look at the cut at the tip,normally the point will be 1/4-1/2 way from the top.The higher the point the more horizontal the brass is kicked,the lower it is the more the brass kicks up.You also have to remember the barrel links up and down so the brass is on the low side of the breechface for ejection,if you have a good wear pattern the bottom of the pattern.Once you know where the brass sits for this,remove the slide and position a piece of brass correctly and look down the ejector cut of the slide.You want to verify you are getting a good smack on the brass and not clipping the edge,breechfaces can be off in the shoulder cuts and it isn't uncommon to see an ejector that isn't wide enough on the inboard side to utilize the full slide cut.

You have to check the extractor no matter what.Tension is as simple as sliding a loaded round into position and roll the slide around with your wrist,the roound should not fall out without a good shaking but not so tight it really holds on and won't let go.Tight usually causes feed jambs.While the case is in position and back against the breechface,hold it to light so you can tell if the tip of the Ext isn't touching the case bevel,big problem waiting to happen.

Adjusting the tension is just a metter of pulling the ext 1/2 way out and pressuring it to add more curve or straighten it and retrying.There is a guage to measure weight but there's a pretty lenient operating range.If it is loose and won't tighten up,the surface directly behind the rim notch is bottoming in the slideand wasn't clearanced enough.

Looking at the ext from the left as it sits in the gun,the bottom 1/3 of the rim cut should be bevelled and radiused to help the case slide up in there.Also,the front wall of the cut should be radiused for about the bottom 1/4,slightly lower than the feed cut.This helps case rollout because there isn't a square corner to hold the case longer.

Clocking is what causes irratic ejection because the ext is turning in the tunnel,causing the contact point of the ext to change on the brass,which causes the case to eject in a different path scattering brass all over the place.The only cure for this is fit an oversize firing pin block.Just about everyone fits there's so it's a slip fit for ease of teardown and assembly,but they take too much off and it doesn't trap the ext cut enough to prevent rotating.If you look at the back of the slide,the ext flat will look crooked off the slide's edge if it's clocking.

Port size and shape can come into play but if the mouth of your cases aren't getting bent or dings in the upper 1/2 of the casewall,you're good there.

If any typos happen or just general confusion,let me know and I'll clear it up whn I get home later.


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## FNISHR

My Glock used to do that but quit after I stopped using Wolf ammunition. I've never understood it.


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## Steve M1911A1

ajlandis said:


> ...I don't dare shoot the gun without glasses...


Well, you shouldn't anyway.
When you shoot a pistol, eye protection is just as important as ear protection.

BTW: *rex*'s advice on this subject is excellent.


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## Holly

I get hit in the head too, but it's because I shoot with my left eye and right hand.


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## VAMarine

Holly said:


> I get hit in the head too, but it's because I shoot with my left eye and right hand.


Really? Who hits you in the head for shooting that way?:mrgreen:

On a serious note, I'm left eye dominant and right handed (Cross dominant) and can't remember the last time I've had a piece of brass hit me that hasn't been bounced back off of something else.


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## Cat

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, you shouldn't anyway.
> When you shoot a pistol, eye protection is just as important as ear protection.
> 
> BTW: *rex*'s advice on this subject is excellent.


I 2nd that... Safety first... :smt1099


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## ajlandis

The glasses comment was a sarcastic way of illustrating the point that I have objects flying at my face on a regular basis when shooting this pistol. I'm familiar with safety equipment, as I wear earplugs and glasses 50-60 hours a week, as well as when I shoot.


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## Yoyoescalona

Lol!! I would hate to have that problem. i myself own a glock 23 and eclipse pro 2 an would not be able to handle rounds ejecting straight into my face. i would definitely contact the manufacture.


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## ajlandis

It doesn't hit me on every shot. Maybe once every mag or two. It definitely adds another element into the shooting experience. A guy had once asked me to set up a tactical course on my property. I told him I'd let him shoot on my range, and at the same time I'd take random shots at him with a paintball gun from behind. I figured it would be a good test of his shooting instincts/ training if he was anticipating being smacked with a paintball at any given time. He never took me up on the offer. At any rate, shooting this gun reminded me of that offer. It really doesn't hurt, it's just an unpleasant surprise that stays in the back of my mind while I'm trying to focus on my form.
Rex, when I get back in town, I'll check out all that you've mentioned and report what I find. Thanks much.


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## rex

No prob man,been there and had to deal with the distractions mid match.I strive for a nice pile of brass about 4' away without bouncing,of course it's only general.On occasion you subconsciensely limp it so that gets ignored,but if there's a so called pattern to it there's a little tuning to be done.I believe HK is about the best out of the box,spew lead as you can afford gun there is,but they choke on occasion.Man made,the level of pride and knowledge dictates the quality but there is still human influence,who flung poo?The real question comes down to is it a malfunction,or just a stoppage.The former happens way too often in today's world,the latter is Murphy saying hello again and keeping us on our toes testing our instincts.TRB or snatch out the BUG.

Keep in touch after you get home,it's something you don't need to put up with since it isn't a GI spec piece.


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## paratrooper

Before you send it back for work, try using a different brand of ammo. 

Kimber is gonna ask you what type ammo you're shooting anyways.


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## rex

Occasionally helps.A pic of the ejector from the side to see the profile of the tip shape would be cool.The extractor is causing the bean hits but it sounds like the ejector could use a slight adjustment also,that's why I'd like to see it.What shape the brass is in and what and where any dings may be is helpfull.


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## paratrooper

I didn't read all the responses (someone might have already said it), but try a different type of ammo.


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## ajlandis

Okay, finally got some home time to check this info out. I'm going to try to reply to each issue independently so that I can give you as good a picture that I can, to make sure that I'm looking at the right stuff. I'll post a few different times as time here allows me. I used my DW CBOB for comparison. The geometry of the 4.25" barrel should be close to the SC, and it runs very well.
First, the ejector: The point is roughly twice as tall as it is wide. It does fill the cut-out reasonably well, but there is a bit of gap between the ejector and the inside of the cut. CBOB is much tighter fit and the point is a slight bit wider than it is tall. It's about half the size of the kimber. The SC ejector seems to sit further away from the center of the breech face. On top of that, the wear pattern is definitely on the lower section of the ejector. That point of obvious dominant contact is roughly on a 45 degree angle from the firing pin. However, the top half of the ejector shows little, if any wear, even though it appears to be square to the breech face. The CBOB's appears to have a slight angle with the top being more forward than the bottom. The impact point seems to be at a distance twice as much to the side as to the bottom.
Another area of concern is the part of the slide just forward of the breech face, opposite the ejection port (might this be the 'shoulder cut' you were referring to?). There is a significant wear pattern from the case rims that does not exist on my other 1911's. It is obvious to me that the rims are rubbing pretty hard while being stripped from the mag and chambered. It also seems that when ejected, they are scraping off the side of the slide when departing from the breech face. The wear is a defined vertical line on a slightly rearward angle from the mag to the breech. Then there is a broader horizontal 'brush stroke' of wear at a level just below the firing pin. 
As for tension on the extractor the SC is pretty snug. Takes quite a shake to get a round to drop from it's grip. The CBOB holds it secure, but a quick shake frees it. The SC does not have any brass wear on the extractor side of the slide. But the extractor itself shows, what I would consider, heavy wear on the inside of the notch. Not from the front of case rims being ejected, but from the edges of the rims rubbing. There is also some wear on the outside, forward part of the claw from where it has been contacting the body of the cases while chambered. 
I'm going to take some pictures. As soon as my wife gets done being pissed at me, I'll ask her to help me post them. It'll show much better than I can describe it.


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## rex

I hope she isn't still mad at you now,that's definately not good.I was hoping for pics,it is hard to describe things some times.I have to run now but I'll check back later when I get home,the Harley is begging to go for a good hard run.


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## Jammersix

The face of the ejector is what matters, and the difference is very small.

There's nothing wrong with the weapon.

The best solution is 300 rounds a week for a year and a half.

Good luck.


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## rex

Not necesarilly.It sounds like the extractor is a bit tight,lenient on a 5" but not a shorty.The ejector has a big factor but if it's cut right other factors clue in.Springing, slide speed,grip,it's an elimination process.


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## ajlandis

300 rounds a week for a year and a half. 23,400 rounds seems like a bit much to break in a $1300 pistol. Ran another 100 through it yesterday. Now I'm having another problem. The first round through the mag isn't wanting to feed, and sometimes the second round, as well. I can take the mag and put it in with the slide locked open. Hit the mag release and it feeds the round halfway into the chamber. Does it with most of the mags I've got. The ones that do allow it to go to battery, still seem like there is a hesitation halfway through the slide drop. However, if I hold the mag up tight into the magwell while I hit the slide release, the rounds feed fine. All of these mags feed fine in three other 1911's. I wonder if the combination of too tight of an extractor is coupling with a sloppy mag catch to cause this problem. I was told that kimber uses an mim extractor, and that tensioning it is very difficult. Is that true? I'm not wanting to change anything until I can get photos posted to show the current conditions. And the wife is in a better mood, but I won't be back in town for a couple days. Fwiw, the gun does shoot very tight groups. At least it has that going for it.


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## VAMarine

ajlandis said:


> 300 rounds a week for a year and a half. 23,400 rounds seems like a bit much to break in a $1300 pistol. Ran another 100 through it yesterday. Now I'm having another problem. The first round through the mag isn't wanting to feed, and sometimes the second round, as well. I can take the mag and put it in with the slide locked open. Hit the mag release and it feeds the round halfway into the chamber. Does it with most of the mags I've got. The ones that do allow it to go to battery, still seem like there is a hesitation halfway through the slide drop. However, if I hold the mag up tight into the magwell while I hit the slide release, the rounds feed fine. All of these mags feed fine in three other 1911's. I wonder if the combination of too tight of an extractor is coupling with a sloppy mag catch to cause this problem. * I was told that kimber uses an mim extractor, and that tensioning it is very difficult. Is that true? I*'m not wanting to change anything until I can get photos posted to show the current conditions. And the wife is in a better mood, but I won't be back in town for a couple days. Fwiw, the gun does shoot very tight groups. At least it has that going for it.


I'd say no regarding the extractor.

Stop trying to find a magical solution to make this gun run, call Kimber, send it in for warranty service, when it comes back, get rid of it and get something else.


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## Jammersix

ajlandis said:


> 300 rounds a week for a year and a half. 23,400 rounds seems like a bit much to break in a $1300 pistol.


It's to break in the shooter, not the weapon. The weapon is fine.


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## VAMarine

Jammersix said:


> It's to break in the shooter, not the weapon. The weapon is fine.


Doubtful.


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## ajlandis

VAMarine said:


> Stop trying to find a magical solution to make this gun run, call Kimber, send it in for warranty service, when it comes back, get rid of it and get something else.


With all due respect, I'd rather try to work this out without having to send it back. I'm a very curious sort when it comes to mechanics. I believe it is kimber's responsibility, but I would really like to use this as an opportunity to learn the nuances of how all the little things add up to work together, and what to look for when they don't. I'm not looking for a magical solution. I just want to learn what is going wrong and why. The info that Rex has given me so far has been enlightening, and I'd like to see it through. The education is more important to me than just getting it fixed. I see it as something that will come in handy for years down the road. If this is a subject that the mods would prefer not to have discussed on the site, I'll respectfully drop it. I'm not looking to upset anyone. I just want to understand my guns better.


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## VAMarine

There's nothing wrong with the topic, but come up with a $$$ amount that you're willing to spend to fix this gun yourself when Kimber should be fixing it for free.

Been there done that and what I ended up spending on trying to fix & test two of them, I could have bought a Wilson Combat or Ed Brown.


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## Jammersix

The dollar amount will be the cost of a 6 inch file.

All that has to be done is to file the end of the ejector so, rather than being square, it is slightly angled to the right (towards the ejection port.) The angle needed is not large.

If one is careful, and doesn't take a lot off at once, there is plenty of material on the ejector to experiment with angles.

This is a matter of preference-- as long as the weapon ejects, it is functioning properly.

The most this exercise could cost is the price of a new, gunsmith-installed ejector.


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## VAMarine

ajlandis said:


> The first round through the mag isn't wanting to feed, and sometimes the second round, as well. I can take the mag and put it in with the slide locked open. Hit the mag release and it feeds the round halfway into the chamber. Does it with most of the mags I've got. The ones that do allow it to go to battery, still seem like there is a hesitation halfway through the slide drop. *However, if I hold the mag up tight into the magwell while I hit the slide release, the rounds feed fine.* All of these mags feed fine in three other 1911's*. I wonder if the combination of too tight of an extractor is coupling with a sloppy mag catch to cause this problem.* I was told that kimber uses an mim extractor, and that tensioning it is very difficult. Is that true? I'm not wanting to change anything until I can get photos posted to show the current conditions. And the wife is in a better mood, but I won't be back in town for a couple days. Fwiw, the gun does shoot very tight groups. At least it has that going for it.


I've had a Kimiber with an out of spec mag catch before and it presented in exactly the same way., *get one of these from EGW* to fix that issue. \

What kind of magazines are you using?

As for the extractor, it is not MIM and it is not hard to tension, BUT re-tensioning an extractor is probably a temporary fix. Odds are it will be off again later. Better to replace it now but before you do that, make sure you remove the extractor and get any gunk out of there. Tips and tricks on tensioning it etc. have all ready been listed, but make sure it's clean in there. About how many rounds do you have through the gun?

Kimber 4" springs often go fast (Kimber suggests replacing every 800 rds), go ahead and get a couple *new ones from Wolf*, or while you're ordering from EGW, get one of *their .25" guide rod assys with the flat spring* and some spares of those.

Also, what kind of ammo are you shooting?


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## rex

Jammersix has the most likely cure for the original problem but pics really help.

VA is spot on for the new one.The EGW parts are top notch,but you may have to masage it in.The right side was just a little large to get in my Colt frame but a few swipes with a stone on the high spots cured it.

Low setting mags happen,but look that the front of the mag baseplate isn't bottoming on the frame causing it.Another issue that popped up on Kimbers was a shallow frame feedramp.The very bottom of the ramp cut should be about even with the bottom of the hole of the slidestop right next to it.This was partially the reason George at EGW made the mag catch that holds mags .020" higher.

Jerry Kunhausen has 2 books on the 1911 that are excellent.The first is operation,specs and how a 1911A1 should be fit to original spec,the second goes more into performance specs and fitting but you have to remember this is kind of 'old school' in some areas.An example is peening the rails and squeezing the slide to tighten up the fit,today welding and recutting the frame rails is prefered.I think anyone that wants to know or work on a 1911 should start with these 2 books.


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## Jammersix

rex said:


> I think anyone that wants to know or work on a 1911 should start with these 2 books.


As do I.


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## sonja

That used to happen to me occasionally. A guy at the range asked me if I was rotating my wrist to soak up recoil. He told me to concentrate on my hold, using a "push-pull", with about 60% of my grip from my "weak hand" -- concentrate on keeping the pistol straight, don't rotate. 

I never sent a gun back . Never repaired anything, concentrated on my grip -- you know, not a "death grip", not attempting to "strangle" the pistol, but a good firm grip with a push-pull.

It worked. I haven't been hit in the head, or had an empty go down my top in years. 

Anyway, that's what worked for me.


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## Steve M1911A1

I think she may be right.

Try it.

(As I've said before, I believe that these things are mostly matters of technique, more than they are matters of hardware.)


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## Jammersix

Yup.

300 rounds a week for a year and a half.


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