# Red Dot/Promo powder in .45 ACP



## Kosh75287

I'm interested in results obtained from others when using Alliant Red Dot (or Promo) in .45 ACP with 200gr. (LSWC or RNFP) or 225gr. -230gr. (any configuration) projectiles. I'm looking for a load that develops 855 - 880 f/s (200 gr.) or 745-760 f/s (225gr. - 230gr.) from a 5" barrel. Velocities from other barrel lengths are also of interest, so don't hesitate to post if your results are from other barrel lengths. 

The reason for my interest in these particular combinations is that I'm sitting on the better part of 8 pounds of Alliant Promo that I bought for use in IDPA competition, and would like to obtain a load that exceeds their 165 PF by a comfortable but not excessive margin.


Before we get started, yes, I DO know that all firearms will tend to give different velocities with the same ammo, and that the REAL way to develop such a load is with a chronograph (it's on order). But published loading data indicates that 4.0/Red Dot/230gr. cast gives 810 f/s, while 5.0/Red Dot/230gr. FMJ gives 910 f/s. It is difficult to interpolate probable charge levels, when projectile composition differs. The first load MIGHT give a similar velocity in MY pistol, but such a load is more powerful than I need by more than 10%, which engenders control and accuracy issues. Any info you can send my way would be very much appreciated.


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## Steve M1911A1

The kind of load you're contemplating, in the cartridge you're using, probably doesn't need to be chronographed.
(Of course, that depends upon what you're going to use it for.)
The load you seek presents low pressure, and will be used in a very strong cartridge case. Therefore, there is no real sensitivity about the issue. Just exercise normal caution and pay attention to the possibility of double charges.

I suggest that, at the distances at which you'll be shooting, paying attention to developing extreme accuracy is unnecessary.
If _the combination of you and your pistol_ will hold 3" at 15 yards, slow-fire, offhand, it'll be enough.

You seem to have accessed Alliant's own website, seeking .45 ACP loads with that particular powder. That's a good start.
The other possibility would be to buy Alliant's own reloading manual, if they publish one.

How 'bout using 4.5 grains of Red Dot?
And, by the way, you can safely use the exact same, relatively mild powder charge with both 200 grain and 230 grain bullets.
There will be no measurable difference in accuracy.


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## Kosh75287

*STEVE1911A1*,

Thanks for your reply and input. While accuracy is never a "non-issue", in this case I believe, as you do, that its importance is somewhat secondary. My SA 1911A1 NM routinely shoots under 2" at 15 yards, depending on the number of rounds in the shot string.

I should have been more clear in stating my goal(s). I'm looking for other's results obtained from a chronograph, from which I can narrow the charge weight range and find loads which reliably (the rules call for 2 of 3 rounds, I'D prefer 9 of 10) exceed the 165 PF level ([bullet weight x muzzle velocity]/1000). In terms of numbers, I'd like the envelope of MY obtained PF to be 169 - 173. Narrower is okay, broader is problematic. These figures translate to a 200gr. projectile with M.V. of 845 to 865 f/s, or a 230gr. projectile at 735 -755 f/s. I believe, as you said, that these velocities are obtainable without straining anything, so it is nice to not be sailing under THAT dark cloud.

I think your recommendation of 4.5/Red Dot/200 or 230 will probably exceed the 165 PF with a 200gr. cast, and will very likely exceed the 165 PF with the 230gr. cast. The question that remains is, "by how much". ONE veteran of IDPA and several 8# jugs of Red Dot/Promo says 4.5/Red Dot (Promo)/230gr. cast will likely exceed the 165 PF by 10% or more. Ordinarily, I would not object to this, but the extra power can engender control issues, lower (MY) accuracy, increase shot-to-shot intervals, and depress my score (which I can do well enough, with no help from my ammo).


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## Steve M1911A1

Wow!
I haven't done any IPSC-style shooting since about 1985, so my information is rusty.
Also, I used WW231, not Red Dot.

I know that six grains of 231, behind a 200-grain H&G #68 semi-wadcutter, and behind a 230-grain H&G round-nose (#34?), both were quite accurate enough, and also neither had any problem meeting "major caliber" energy.
Chamber pressure? Velocity? Haven't the foggiest idea. All I know is that these loads worked without fail, were accurate enough, and always made "major caliber."


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## Kosh75287

*STEVEM1911A1,*

Thanks again for the loading data. I'm sure that today's data for W231/HP38 has changed since 1985, but Hodgdon's website says your 200gr. load is over max by 0.1 gr. and your 230gr. load is over max by 0.7gr.

I have every confidence that the loads you mention would be sufficiently, even perhaps SUPERBLY accurate (I have no trouble admitting that *I'M* the weak link in the accuracy equation). But the loads you mention are way, WAY hotter than what I need (by over 16%, by one calculation).

I'm looking for 745 - 760 + 25 f/s for a 230 gr. projectile, and/or a 200gr. @ 855-880 f/s, nothing heavier. I know the final measurement must be my own, with a chronograph, but I'm hopeful that I can glean info from the experiences of others.

I haven't used W231/HP38 in a couple of decades, but inherited 2 pounds recently, so I'll probably need to do something with THAT stuff, soon. It's not that I DIS-like W231, I just never saw what all the FUSS was about. It burns clean, meters well, etc., etc... But it lacks the economy of Red Dot/Promo, and the versatility of Unique.


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## Steve M1911A1

The point I was trying to make is that .45 ACP is a very "forgiving" cartridge.
It can take small overcharges, and still deliver accuracy and function. And, assuming a solid and well-made pistol, no harm will come of it.
Similarly, it can take small undercharges, too, and still deliver accuracy and function.

Yeah, I suppose that my competition loads are "over maximum"; except that in this cartridge, in a solid and well-made pistol, they still will never be a problem. Ever.

I'm not certain that a 200-grain bullet travelling at (average) 860fps will make "major caliber."
I am also uncertain whether a 230-grain bullet at (average) 750fps will make "major caliber."
Bu then, I've been out of the game for so long, what could I know?

I believe that you are over-thinking the problem.


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## Kosh75287

Unless it's changed recently, minimum PF for "major caliber" is 165. For a 200gr. projectile, that requires 825 f/s, minimum. Of course, a consistent 826 f/s would be nice, but I know better than that. I'd settle for any velocity between 845 and 880 f/s. A 200gr. projectile at 860 f/s works out to a PF of 172, which would be WONDERful. A 230gr. projectile at 750 f/s works out to 172.5, which would ALSO be great. 

I COULD use the loads you mentioned, or something close to them. They'd be accurate enough, and I have ZERO doubt that the loads would make major, but control and accuracy issues would abound. I can embarrass myself on a firing range QUITE ably without without using reloads generating velocities well in excess of what's needed. Over thinking? MAYbe, but I don't think I'm wasting my time by minimizing obstacles to shooting well, where and as I can. YMMV


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