# What stops an attacker?



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

What Stops An Attacker?

Now, keep in mind - an 8″-penetrating bullet may hurt like hell, it may cause a lot of bleeding, it may make the person who got shot drop their weapon and say "no more!" That all may happen. But it may not. The target may be feeling no pain, they may be on drugs or feeling so much adrenaline that they don't actually recognize that they've been shot, they may continue attacking even after having been shot. That 8″ bullet may actually kill them eventually, too, through aggregated blood loss or through infection or any number of reasons. But when talking about having to shoot in self defense, we're not trying to kill our attacker, we're trying to STOP our attacker - immediately. And the only way to force a quick stop is to either hit the central nervous system (brain/upper spine) or damage the circulatory system such that it causes a rapid bleed-out and thus loss of blood pressure, which will deprive the brain of oxygen and cause them to fall unconscious. That's the goal - stop the attacker from continuing their attack. We're not trying to "kill" someone, we're trying to stop them from killing us.

Bullet Effectiveness ? what?s the big deal about 12? penetration anyway? | Shooting The Bull


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

What stops an Attacker?

Multiple hits on the threat... my philosophy is shoot, and keep shooting til the threat is stopped. It may be one round or several rounds... I don't get too hung up on penetration inches or millimeter differences in bullet expansion. More holes = more trauma to organs and more blood loss. I am not sure how many people would actually rely on one round stopping an attacker... nor should they as too many variables come into play (distance, clothing, drugs in system, body armor, etc, etc).

Just my 2 cents... i've noticed lots of threads where gel tests and velocities are more of a concern than the thought process/mindset of multiple hits on target quickly. Dump rounds into the threat until it is stopped... simple.

People die all the time from 3" stab wounds. Whether my rounds go 6" or 12" into a threat is secondary as to how many rounds I can get into the threat (hopefully center mass) to stop it quickly.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

A detective once told me to fill them up with so much lead that they have to back a flat bed wrecker truck to them and haul them off.
Mozambique drill and or Zipper Drill should do the trick.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> What stops an Attacker?
> 
> Multiple hits on the threat... my philosophy is shoot, and keep shooting til the threat is stopped. It may be one round or several rounds... I don't get too hung up on penetration inches or millimeter differences in bullet expansion. More holes = more trauma to organs and more blood loss. I am not sure how many people would actually rely on one round stopping an attacker... nor should they as too many variables come into play (distance, clothing, drugs in system, body armor, etc, etc).
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. The thing is, you're never going to know how a BG is going to react to being hit until you open fire. Assuming that you are going to have some misses and probably hits to non-vital areas, you have little choice but to be prepared to shoot multiple times.

You make excellent points in your post.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Agreed. The excerpt is from the article I posted which explains the penetration issue quite well. It's a good read, but more about ammunition, and why penetration is measured and compared, than actually shooting someone. Choosing the right bullet is as important as choosing the right weapon, in my opinion. It's all relative to the situation.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> What Stops An Attacker?
> 
> Now, keep in mind - an 8″-penetrating bullet may hurt like hell, it may cause a lot of bleeding, it may make the person who got shot drop their weapon and say "no more!" That all may happen. But it may not. The target may be feeling no pain, they may be on drugs or feeling so much adrenaline that they don't actually recognize that they've been shot, they may continue attacking even after having been shot. That 8″ bullet may actually kill them eventually, too, through aggregated blood loss or through infection or any number of reasons. But when talking about having to shoot in self defense, we're not trying to kill our attacker, we're trying to STOP our attacker - immediately. And the only way to force a quick stop is to either hit the central nervous system (brain/upper spine) or damage the circulatory system such that it causes a rapid bleed-out and thus loss of blood pressure, which will deprive the brain of oxygen and cause them to fall unconscious. That's the goal - stop the attacker from continuing their attack. We're not trying to "kill" someone, we're trying to stop them from killing us.
> 
> Bullet Effectiveness ? what?s the big deal about 12? penetration anyway? | Shooting The Bull


About a year and a half ago, I was having breakfast in a local McDonald's when in walks a few young guys, one of whom was rather large... in several ways. I had a perfect view of his profile and it dawned on me that if I had to shoot someone like him, I'd be asking my chosen round to do a hardy day's work. His girth was quite impressive and I would bet his heart was every bit of 12-16 inches in his chest. This was rather sobering to me.

Now if all of these gents were threats to my future existence my caliber and load would indeed, be taxed to save my hide as all of them were large bipeds. This incident definitely made me consider a few things that many times, a lot of us just take for granted.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Agreed. The excerpt is from the article I posted which explains the penetration issue quite well. It's a good read, but more about ammunition, and why penetration is measured and compared, than actually shooting someone. Choosing the right bullet is as important as choosing the right weapon, in my opinion. It's all relative to the situation.


The article is a good read and I think the most salient part is the fact that you are never really going to know how an extreme encounter is going to occur because there are just so many variables involved. And this also applies to trying to deliver rounds to your assailant. I think the writer stressed these facts very well.


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## shooter69 (Jan 8, 2014)

One good shot in the head!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

shooter69 said:


> One good shot in the head!


I wouldn't bank on this. A BG's not about to hold still while you take aim for a head shot. If you are able, that is one thing but chances are you are not going to be so fortunate. COM shots are your best bet in an extreme encounter.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Actually, the best bet is not center-of-mass, but rather to keep your shots within a triangle formed by the sides of the chest just below the armpits and the bottom of the chin.
This gives you a large enough aiming area within which to do good, useful damage, while encompassing the most important breathing and blood-flow apparatus in the body.
Check-out an anatomy-cutaway diagram, and you'll see what I mean.

Another area that's easy to hit is the pelvis. Break a pelvic bone, and the opponent can't move very well. Hit one of the two important arteries, and quick bleed-out is assured.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Actually, the best bet is not center-of-mass, but rather to keep your shots within a triangle formed by the sides of the chest just below the armpits and the bottom of the chin.
> This gives you a large enough aiming area within which to do good, useful damage, while encompassing the most important breathing and blood-flow apparatus in the body.
> Check-out an anatomy-cutaway diagram, and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> Another area that's easy to hit is the pelvis. Break a pelvic bone, and the opponent can't move very well. Hit one of the two important arteries, and quick bleed-out is assured.


That would encompass a good deal of center mass as would center mass encompass a good deal of your triangle. In my frame of mind, center mass entails a 9" paper plate placed on the chest with the center of the plate over the solar plexus. Directly behind that center point lies the heart.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> The article is a good read and I think the most salient part is the fact that you are never really going to know how an extreme encounter is going to occur because there are just so many variables involved. And this also applies to trying to deliver rounds to your assailant. I think the writer stressed these facts very well.


I've read/watched several of this guy's reviews, and at first he came across a little artsy, but he has some really good input, and seems to be very thorough and knowledgable. Pretty balanced, actually.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Actually, the best bet is not center-of-mass, but rather to keep your shots within a triangle formed by the sides of the chest just below the armpits and the bottom of the chin.
> This gives you a large enough aiming area within which to do good, useful damage, while encompassing the most important breathing and blood-flow apparatus in the body.
> Check-out an anatomy-cutaway diagram, and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> Another area that's easy to hit is the pelvis. Break a pelvic bone, and the opponent can't move very well. Hit one of the two important arteries, and quick bleed-out is assured.


I've heard the FBI teaches to start shooting aiming at the waist, and move up, which makes sense when you look at tue human anatomy. Kidneys, lungs, heart, middle from waist to chin is extremely vascular, and if you can manage several hits in this region, especially the triangular area you mentioned, Steve, I think your odds of stopping an attacker are good.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> That would encompass a good deal of center mass as would center mass encompass a good deal of your triangle. In my frame of mind, center mass entails a 9" paper plate placed on the chest with the center of the plate over the solar plexus. Directly behind that center point lies the heart.


You describe center-of-mass quite well.
But be aware that if the solar plexus is the center of your center-of-mass, most of that nine-inch circle covers the guts, not the necessary plumbing. A gut shot is painful, but a gut-shot deer will run for quite a long time before laying down.
Further, the heart is at the top of that nine-inch circle, and the rest of the truly essential plumbing is above that. Therefore, a better stopping shot would be centered a good deal higher than the solar plexus. That would add the advantage of hits to the trachia and bronchi, which are also instant fight stoppers.

I'll stand by that triangle I've described.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> You describe center-of-mass quite well.
> But be aware that if the solar plexus is the center of your center-of-mass, most of that nine-inch circle covers the guts, not the necessary plumbing. A gut shot is painful, but a gut-shot deer will run for quite a long time before laying down.
> Further, the heart is at the top of that nine-inch circle, and the rest of the truly essential plumbing is above that. Therefore, a better stopping shot would be centered a good deal higher than the solar plexus. That would add the advantage of hits to the trachia and bronchi, which are also instant fight stoppers.
> 
> I'll stand by that triangle I've described.


Oops... Steve, I must apologize. I did not mean the solar plexus. I meant the sternum and I can assure you that I do know the difference between these two parts of the human anatomy. My mistake. I wrote what I was not thinking or intending to convey.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

It's good to also remember that center mass changes if the threat is behind cover or moving or not facing directly at you.... you then aim for center of "exposed" mass, which would be the center of the largest exposed area visible to you.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Many things, if applied properly, can stop an attacker.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> Oops... Steve, I must apologize. I did not mean the solar plexus. I meant the sternum and I can assure you that I do know the difference between these two parts of the human anatomy. My mistake. I wrote what I was not thinking or intending to convey.


OK. Got it.
Thus, we are in pretty close agreement.

Mr. Raggio, my high school math teacher, might've said: "Circles are prettier, but triangles are more satisfying, both structurally and mathematically."


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Good points all. Steve, I'd heard of your idea of shooting high just recently, I makes sense, now to unlearn 40 odd years of training. It always amazes me that the older I get the more I realize how much I don't know.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

This was more informational from the article standpoint than a solicitation, but some good input nonetheless.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanks Steve for your input on the triangle target area. There's no shame in saying one learns new things all of the time. Anyone who tries to convince people that they know everything there is to know about a given subject is either lying or a fool. My take is that he is both.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

"Caliber War" is a constant in the gun world..... However intense constant training and shot placement usually trumps caliber...

Keep in mind that both you and the bad guy will be "pumped" which can give one unfeasible speed, strength and not realizing one has been shot......

Training/practicing constantly helps when intense fear shuts down your rational brain you will still be able to function on "autopilot".


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

bander said:


> maybe you are willing to wait 4 seconds+ for the guy to bleed out, but I am not. After 2-3 rds at his chest, I'm switching to most of the rest of the magazine to his head. Not waiting to see any effect, understand me? Just an automatic, trained-in switch of target. *The range, for justifiable civilian stuff, is nearly always sub 5 yds, and mostly more like 6 ft. Just ask George Z about that.*


Who told you this? Can you cite this law in your state?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

bander said:


> maybe you are willing to wait 4 seconds+ for the guy to bleed out, but I am not. After 2-3 rds at his chest, I'm switching to most of the rest of the magazine to his head. Not waiting to see any effect, understand me? Just an automatic, trained-in switch of target. The range, for justifiable civilian stuff, is nearly always sub 5 yds, and mostly more like 6 ft. Just ask George Z about that.


Have you ever been in a gunfight?
Have you ever been in a confrontation which almost became a gunfight?

One thing that I have learned, during my life so far, is that you cannot predict exactly what will happen. Ever.
Another thing that I've learned is that when the music actually starts, your head empties out and you cannot even predict your own behavior.

You believe that you will have the presence of mind to do a Mozambique, according to your ingrained training and muscle memory, but reality will prove vastly different.

(No, I've never been in a real gunfight. Close, a couple of times, though. Very close.)


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Have you ever been in a gunfight?
> Have you ever been in a confrontation which almost became a gunfight?
> 
> One thing that I have learned, during my life so far, is that you cannot predict exactly what will happen. Ever.
> ...


Correct.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

bander said:


> maybe you are willing to wait 4 seconds+ for the guy to bleed out, but I am not. After 2-3 rds at his chest, I'm switching to most of the rest of the magazine to his head. Not waiting to see any effect, understand me? Just an automatic, trained-in switch of target. The range, for justifiable civilian stuff, is nearly always sub 5 yds, and mostly more like 6 ft. Just ask George Z about that.


I'm not sure what you're talking about, and I'm pretty sure you're not either. None of this even sounds real, at all. How much real-world experience do you have in this arena? I mean, how many people have you shot and/or killed? How many actual altercations have you actually encountered where you used your built in training to, you know, just switch targets after two to three shots to the chest? Have you ever been shot or actually seen anyone else get shot? I have, both actually, and I can personally attest that a single head shot can and will drop a man instantly, and not kill the victim. Most ppl would think a direct head shot like that is instant death, but not necessarily. There are all sorts of crazy things that happen in the real world that cannot be explained or predicted. It isn't quite as cut and dried as you seem to think.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Have you ever been in a gunfight?
> Have you ever been in a confrontation which almost became a gunfight?
> 
> One thing that I have learned, during my life so far, is that you cannot predict exactly what will happen. Ever.
> ...


Extremely correct!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*bander*;
Don't be a snarky snot. It doesn't help your argument.
Be as polite as you can, and we'll all pay close attention to your words. Be snotty, and we'll just dismiss you as a fool.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Bander, you're the kind of guy, we in the military, typically shy away from. You're a legend in your own movie it seems. Btw, just bc you have pulled a gun on a man means nothing. Follow Steve's advice and lay low foe a while. You're starting to make a name for yourself, and it isn't good.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Bander's info re: distance / range in incidents and oxygenated blood in the brain is pretty accurate. Just poorly delivered.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

VAMarine said:


> Bander's info re: distance / range in incidents and oxygenated blood in the brain is pretty accurate. Just poorly delivered.


Have a look at his other posts...not the only thing poorly delivered.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Yeah I just banned him.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

GCBHM said:


> Have a look at his other posts...not the only thing poorly delivered.


Don't get bent because someone dosent agree with you.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

When you are dead you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rustygun said:


> Don't get bent because someone dosent agree with you.


Really bro? :-/


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## Newell52 (Mar 25, 2013)

I understand the importance of shot placement. I also know familiarity with your chosen weapon is of utmost importance and that no one actually knows how they would react in a real life situation. But when it comes to proper ammo for carry I wonder if I am correct in the way I do it. In the summer months I always fuel up with good hollow point defensive loads since everyone usually is dressed light here in my area and in the winter months I usually carry with FMJ ammo because I believe it would penetrate heavy coats and clothing much better than FMJ. Is my thought process correct? If not, would appreciate your input on proper ammo to carry in each season. Thanks


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Somebody (Hornady?) makes pistol ammunition loaded with bullets guaranteed to penetrate any overlying strata, and then still both expand and penetrate properly.
Look for their ads in the various gun magazines.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Newell52 said:


> I understand the importance of shot placement. I also know familiarity with your chosen weapon is of utmost importance and that no one actually knows how they would react in a real life situation. But when it comes to proper ammo for carry I wonder if I am correct in the way I do it. In the summer months I always fuel up with good hollow point defensive loads since everyone usually is dressed light here in my area and in the winter months I usually carry with FMJ ammo because I believe it would penetrate heavy coats and clothing much better than FMJ. Is my thought process correct? If not, would appreciate your input on proper ammo to carry in each season. Thanks


Slightly off topic - but people actually wear heavy clothing and coats in 'Bama? I thought the South was always warm....


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Most of the year, but it can get bitterly cold btwn say Nov-Feb. Well below freezing.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Anyone remember Verbal Judo? It was all the rage at one point in time. 

I thought it was a bunch of BS from the very start. The instructor(s) and I didn't get along at all.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I recall some cop friends of mine going through the training and I thought it sounded silly.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Ahhh... Verbal Judo : The Gentle Art of Persuasion. 

They are still teaching that in the Academy. I remember quite a few folks thinking it was BS, lol.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I am a firm believer in the art of persuasive communication, and most situations can be resolved with words if those involved are cooler headed types, but there are some folks who just won't cooperate with you regardless only bc they want a fight.


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## campbed (Feb 16, 2013)

2 center mass, 1 in the computer. Repeat as necessary.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah, I agree that's the goal. But I dare say that is a lot easier said than done.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Newell52 said:


> I understand the importance of shot placement. I also know familiarity with your chosen weapon is of utmost importance and that no one actually knows how they would react in a real life situation. But when it comes to proper ammo for carry I wonder if I am correct in the way I do it. In the summer months I always fuel up with good hollow point defensive loads since everyone usually is dressed light here in my area and in the winter months I usually carry with FMJ ammo because I believe it would penetrate heavy coats and clothing much better than FMJ. Is my thought process correct? If not, would appreciate your input on proper ammo to carry in each season. Thanks


*"winter months I usually carry with FMJ ammo because I believe it would penetrate heavy coats and clothing much better than JHP."*

I think you meant what I corrected for you (in the red). Now to your comment. The only time I would load my defensive sidearm with FMJ ammo is if nothing better was available at the time. There are some very high quality JHP loads out there that will do a very good job of getting through clothing and into your primary target. Use one of them in the winter months.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Yeah, I agree that's the goal. But I dare say that is a lot easier said than done.


I train for this and other scenarios but as is always the case, there are no guarantees and no BG's who are going to emulate targets.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> *"winter months I usually carry with FMJ ammo because I believe it would penetrate heavy coats and clothing much better than JHP."*
> 
> I think you meant what I corrected for you (in the red). Now to your comment. The only time I would load my defensive sidearm with FMJ ammo is if nothing better was available at the time. There are some very high quality JHP loads out there that will do a very good job of getting through clothing and into your primary target. Use one of them in the winter months.


I echo this advice. I use either Hornady Critical Duty, Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot. Preferably 124 gr or 135 gr for the Critical Duty.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> I train for this and other scenarios but as is always the case, there are no guarantees and no BG's who are going to emulate targets.


I also train for it, but mainly I train for a three round burst to center mass. I figure if i can pop the torso with three rounds my odds of hitting at least one vital is better, and I focus on maintaining control. But like you said, I doubt many of the BGs will stand still for me.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> I also train for it, but mainly I train for a three round burst to center mass. I figure if i can pop the torso with three rounds my odds of hitting at least one vital is better, and I focus on maintaining control. But like you said, I doubt many of the BGs will stand still for me.


Yep, it's crap shoot (pun intended). Just far too many variables at play to be able to say with certainty that two to CM and one to the head is the way to go. When I train, I use flipping targets and various arrangements for targets (I never use conventional targets). I even use double targets to simulate two attackers. And I can do draw and fire exercises at the range where I go. Mixing things up and taxing yourself with different scenarios helps you envision situations that could exist in actual encounters is a very good friend to your toolbox of skills.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Yep, it's crap shoot (pun intended). Just far too many variables at play to be able to say with certainty that two to CM and one to the head is the way to go. When I train, I use flipping targets and various arrangements for targets (I never use conventional targets). I even use double targets to simulate two attackers. And I can do draw and fire exercises at the range where I go. Mixing things up and taxing yourself with different scenarios helps you envision situations that could exist in actual encounters is a very good friend to your toolbox of skills.


Agreed! Unfortunately, the range I have access to doesn't really allow for much other than stationary targets, and you can't shoot from the draw. There is a training facility close by, and they do offer some classes, but its main function is training for professionals from local to international firms. It is a phenomenal facility with instructors ranging from active police officers to ex-military operators (SEALs, Green Beret, etc.). The only draw back is that the classes are expensive. I have some property that my wife and I have thought about turning into a shooting range, but seems it may be more trouble than it's worth. I try to change it up as much as I can though. Shooting at different distances, different frequency, different targets at times, although I mainly use a silhouette target. I do the best I can to train my mind, to create as many visions of scenarios that I can, and pray I never have to employ them! LOL


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