# Taking guests to the range.



## NLAlston (Nov 15, 2011)

Last month, my brother and I visited the gun range, here. I am licensed, but my brother isn't. Now, I'd heard that a licensed individual would be allowed to bring a guest to shoot, under the licensee's permit. But we were informed, however, that there was a requirement for ALL range visitors to bear gun permits, in order to shoot. We also were told that it wasn't the order of the range, itself, but that it was a New York State law. They would permit us to shoot, but stated that an off duty Officer might be present, at a stall, and see (maybe) a gun handling characteristic that he/she might feel warrants questioning. In such a scenario, the Officer would (very likely) as for the shooter's card (permit) to be shown. My brother's not having one would, very likely, translate into my permit - AND gun - being taken.

Now, I understand that a LOT of licensed shooters take their family members (young sons, daughters, etc.) to the range - and they (at least, for the greater part) don't have permits. I would LOVE to take our daughters out to the range, for the inculcation of proper gun handling aspects. But it seems that I may not be afforded that opportunity. 

I wonder if that is a law just in THIS state, and that other States might be a bit more lenient, in this regard?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I suggest that you had better research NY law on your own.
(All states publish their laws and regulations on dedicated websites, and most are pretty well indexed.)

It seems improbable that your guest must already be as licensed as you, yourself, are.
For one thing, licenses are not granted to minor children, yet parents (and uncles) can legally teach them to shoot, even in NY.

I further suggest that the restriction your range visited upon you was _their own rule_, and not a state rule.
The "it's a state law" thing was, more likely than not, a lie that the owner of the range uses to restrict his potential liability.

If, however, it turns out to be a state law, then it's probably either unique or almost so.
Maybe Rhode Island might have a similar regulation*, but I doubt it. Even California probably has no such regulation.

You might want to find a different place in which to shoot.
(Were it me, I would.)

*In Rhode Island, the shooting range nearest to our son's home requires every new shooter to take a basic safety course, usually at no charge, before being permitted to use the facility.


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## NLAlston (Nov 15, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I suggest that you had better research NY law on your own.
> (All states publish their laws and regulations on dedicated websites, and most are pretty well indexed.)
> 
> It seems improbable that your guest must already be as licensed as you, yourself, are.
> ...


Thank you, Steve - and you are so right. The safest, and wisest move WOULD be to bone up on what the WRITTEN laws are, for one's locality.

What I didn't include in my previous post (and what confused me, a bit) was this: about 7 or 8 years ago, my (now deceased) father-in-law's girlfriend took my wife - who didn't have a permit - to the same range. She'd informed that my wife would be able to go, as a guest, under HER licensing. Now, this woman is a Police Officer (Deputy Sheriff, if memory serves me correct) and there'd been no issue, whatsoever. However, after my previously expressed situation, I began to wonder if this friend's classification might have been the determining factor which differed, from now. If not, then it occurred to me that the lawful regulations might have, since, changed.

But I am certainly going to arm myself with the written laws, so that I'll know what needs to be known - for SURE .

Thanks again, my friend.


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## ddostie900 (May 22, 2016)

The law in NY is you must have a pistol permit to shoot at a range...shoot a pistol that is.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

NLAlston said:


> Last month, my brother and I visited the gun range, here. I am licensed, but my brother isn't. Now, I'd heard that a licensed individual would be allowed to bring a guest to shoot, under the licensee's permit. But we were informed, however, that there was a requirement for ALL range visitors to bear gun permits, in order to shoot. We also were told that it wasn't the order of the range, itself, but that it was a New York State law. They would permit us to shoot, but stated that an off duty Officer might be present, at a stall, and see (maybe) a gun handling characteristic that he/she might feel warrants questioning. In such a scenario, the Officer would (very likely) as for the shooter's card (permit) to be shown. *My brother's not having one would, very likely, translate into my permit - AND gun - being taken.*
> 
> Now, I understand that a LOT of licensed shooters take their family members (young sons, daughters, etc.) to the range - and they (at least, for the greater part) don't have permits. I would LOVE to take our daughters out to the range, for the inculcation of proper gun handling aspects. But it seems that I may not be afforded that opportunity.
> 
> I wonder if that is a law just in THIS state, and that other States might be a bit more lenient, in this regard?


I personally know some people who had to take a safety course in order to obtain a pistol permit in New York State. Two are retired police officers from that God awful place. One in Mt. Vernon the other in NYC. We have discussed these issues at length. Permits are usually restricted to target and hunting depending on which county you live in. During the safety course permit applicants were not allowed to touch let alone handle a real handgun. Figure that one out? Unless they had a valid permit. The courses are available to any who wish to attend. So I believe that the range operators are 100% correct. They could legally shut down the range. Of course things may have changed since then? Being that it's New York State it probably hasn't and with a Governor such as "I'll Duce" and the "Safe Act" it's probably gotten worse. He even boasted after the passage of the "Safe Act" that people that "do not think like him are not welcome in New York, that's not who we are". When I hear of all this crap, I just thank God I live in Arizona.

Other state's are indeed more lenient. New York State is probably one of the worst states in the union for exercising your 2nd Amendment rights. If you really like living in the northeast, you may want to consider moving to Vermont. Connecticut too is out of the question.

About the only way you could take your daughters out shooting a handgun is to take a long drive upstate somewhere, Catskill's? Adirondack's? and wander off into the woods. Or maybe you know someone who has a cottage up there? HOWEVER THIS TOO WOULD BE ILLEGAL. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but being that it's upstate New York it's a bit more gun friendly and the sound of gun shots would more than likely not bring about anyone's unwarranted attention. If you get my drift.

I hope to Christ that one day you'll be able to leave that place. It's a great big wonderful country with a place for just about everyone. Besides there's nothing like the taste of freedom.


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## NLAlston (Nov 15, 2011)

desertman said:


> I personally know some people who had to take a safety course in order to obtain a pistol permit in New York State. Two are retired police officers from that God awful place. One in Mt. Vernon the other in NYC. We have discussed these issues at length. Permits are usually restricted to target and hunting depending on which county you live in. During the safety course permit applicants were not allowed to touch let alone handle a real handgun. Figure that one out? Unless they had a valid permit. The courses are available to any who wish to attend. So I believe that the range operators are 100% correct. They could legally shut down the range. Of course things may have changed since then? Being that it's New York State it probably hasn't and with a Governor such as "I'll Duce" and the "Safe Act" it's probably gotten worse. He even boasted after the passage of the "Safe Act" that people that "do not think like him are not welcome in New York, that's not who we are". When I hear of all this crap, I just thank God I live in Arizona.
> 
> Other state's are indeed more lenient. New York State is probably one of the worst states in the union for exercising your 2nd Amendment rights. If you really like living in the northeast, you may want to consider moving to Vermont. Connecticut too is out of the question.
> 
> ...


Desertman,

I do remember, when I went for my permit, that I had to take a three (or five?) hour safety classroom course. I remember the instructor having three pistols on the table (first time I had ever heard of, or seen a 454 Casull), with a sign above them in big red letters, which read "DO NOT TOUCH!!". Maybe not such a class requirement is on the tables, in other states, but it sure is required here .

For various reasons, I do not really care for living here. And (If ever to be blessed with a sizable enough financial blessing) I would move put of state in a heartbeat. The weather, which can be absolutely brutal in the winter months, is one reason. But there are other, (what I feel to be) limiting factors, which would fold in to my pulling up stakes, from this State.

I used to know a guy who had a co-worker friend, who owned 160 acres of land in Gowanda, NY. That guy was very nice, and allowed us to come on his land, and shoot - anytime that we desired. I don't associate with that guy I knew, anymore, as he has since went 'rogue'. But I DO miss being out there, and shooting without the concern of time, or expense.

I wish that I, personally, had land enough where I would be able to do the same on my OWN grounds.

Maybe one day .

Blessings,
Nathan


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

NLAlston said:


> Desertman,
> 
> I do remember, when I went for my permit, that I had to take a three (or five?) hour safety classroom course. I remember the instructor having three pistols on the table (first time I had ever heard of, or seen a 454 Casull), with a sign above them in big red letters, which read "DO NOT TOUCH!!". Maybe not such a class requirement is on the tables, in other states, but it sure is required here .
> 
> ...


If you ever do decide to move, I hope that you'll consider Arizona. There's no place else I'd rather be. Nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it. If you own your home free and clear, you can get a lot more house for your money out here and probably most other places throughout the country. That's one advantage of living in New York. You can sell your house out there, and for arguments sake, let's say for around $400,000 and get a comparable home out here for approximately half that. Property taxes are about 1/10th of what they are out there.

The climate too is a lot better depending where you are. There are a lot area's of Arizona that have four mild seasons. Anywhere the elevation is around 5000 ft. above sea level. Flagstaff at about 7000 ft. gets pretty cold during the winter and a lot of snow. Then there are places that are hotter than holy hell, that Arizona is famous for, Phoenix and its metro area, Yuma, Lake Havasu City, Bullhead City etc. Tucson is not as hot as Phoenix, but still hot, it's around 2600 ft. Phoenix is around 1100 ft. The hottest I've experienced was in Wikieup when it was 118 in August. Good place to fry your ass off during the summer. "But it's a dry heat". Still hotter than hell. In the winter those places are paradise.

There are a lot of places to go shootin' out here. Outside of city limits you can drive out into the middle of nowhere and blast away to your hearts content and nobody gives a shit as long as you do not leave anything behind. You do not need a permit to carry either openly or concealed and you can carry just about anywhere except on the Indian reservations. Warning! They make their own laws.

Whatever you decide to do I wish you all the luck in the world. You certainly deserve to live better than where you are.

"DM"


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## NLAlston (Nov 15, 2011)

desertman said:


> If you ever do decide to move, I hope that you'll consider Arizona. There's no place else I'd rather be. Nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it. If you own your home free and clear, you can get a lot more house for your money out here and probably most other places throughout the country. That's one advantage of living in New York. You can sell your house out there, and for arguments sake, let's say for around $400,000 and get a comparable home out here for approximately half that. Property taxes are about 1/10th of what they are out there.
> 
> The climate too is a lot better depending where you are. There are a lot area's of Arizona that have four mild seasons. Anywhere the elevation is around 5000 ft. above sea level. Flagstaff at about 7000 ft. gets pretty cold during the winter and a lot of snow. Then there are places that are hotter than holy hell, that Arizona is famous for, Phoenix and its metro area, Yuma, Lake Havasu City, Bullhead City etc. Tucson is not as hot as Phoenix, but still hot, it's around 2600 ft. Phoenix is around 1100 ft. The hottest I've experienced was in Wikieup when it was 118 in August. Good place to fry your ass off during the summer. "But it's a dry heat". Still hotter than hell. In the winter those places are paradise.
> 
> ...


Never been to Arizona, but have heard a lot about it. Had a deceased sister who moved there, from Buffalo - and who loved it. It was in Phoenix that she resided. I also have a brother-in-law who lived there for a few years, until he was contracted to work in Aubu Dabi (did I spell that right?). He's been there for eight years, and wants to come back. His aim is to return to Phoenix, or head to Las Vegas. But even HE had grand things to say about Arizona.

Id always thought of Arizona as having heat with a near kinship to the innards of a volcano , and I do NOT handle high heat well, at all. I've read you to say that some places in Arizona get downright cold - and that's ANOTHER thing that I really don't care for. But I'm sure that there is somewhere, there, which prove to be a happy medium for me.

Our home IS paid for, but we are prevented from selling it (without cash penalty) for another seven years. That's because of a home improvement grant that the Town benefitted us with, three years ago. That will give us time to get some other improvement issues taken care of. Then, we will surely be looking into selling, and getting away from here. Arizona will be a State that we'll look into considering.

It would sure be nice to live somewhere without the imposition of such heavy limitations. Besides, the much better climate would be icing on that cake .


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

There ain't NO WAY I would take anybody to a range with me. Too many ways to get asked to leave and too many rules. Just go by yourself and learn your gun and how to use it. It's like having someone over to ride your horse when you don't know if they can ride? Poor horse! fwiw


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

NLAlston said:


> Never been to Arizona, but have heard a lot about it. Had a deceased sister who moved there, from Buffalo - and who loved it. It was in Phoenix that she resided. I also have a brother-in-law who lived there for a few years, until he was contracted to work in Aubu Dabi (did I spell that right?). He's been there for eight years, and wants to come back. His aim is to return to Phoenix, or head to Las Vegas. But even HE had grand things to say about Arizona.
> 
> Id always thought of Arizona as having heat with a near kinship to the innards of a volcano , and I do NOT handle high heat well, at all. I've read you to say that some places in Arizona get downright cold - and that's ANOTHER thing that I really don't care for. *But I'm sure that there is somewhere, there, which prove to be a happy medium for me.*
> 
> ...


If you are interested in moving to Arizona, you should look into the tri-city area; Prescott, Prescott Valley, and Chino Valley. Along with Cottonwood, Clarkdale, Sedona, and Payson. During the winter it's usually in the 50's with some 60's and an occasional 70, some snow. When it does snow it's usually gone in a day or two. Summertime it's in the mid 80's to mid 90's. You also have to take into consideration the low humidity which makes those temperatures even more comfortable. Even during the winter. In my opinion these are the ideal places to live in Arizona.

Sedona while absolutely gorgeous is a bit too touristy and more expensive. There are also hundreds of small towns throughout the state with only a few hundred or even less people. However they lack the amenities of the more populated area's. No city water, lack of medical facilities, major shopping etc. They are literally in the middle of nowhere. For obvious reasons you do not want to live in any of the border towns. Arizona is the 6th largest state, some of it's counties are larger than some states. There's a place and climate to suit just about anyone.

Well you've got at least 7 years to plan, giving you plenty of time to research these places. Or there may be other states that you may want to consider. Whatever you decide I hope it works out well for you.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Blackhawkman said:


> There ain't NO WAY I would take anybody to a range with me. Too many ways to get asked to leave and too many rules. Just go by yourself and learn your gun and how to use it. It's like having someone over to ride your horse when you don't know if they can ride? Poor horse! fwiw


I'll agree with that! Not only that some people have done some pretty stupid things at a range. You never know who you'll be shooting alongside.


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## AZdave (Oct 23, 2015)

NLAlston said:


> Id always thought of Arizona as having heat with a near kinship to the innards of a volcano , and I do NOT handle high heat well, at all. I've read you to say that some places in Arizona get downright cold - and that's ANOTHER thing that I really don't care for. But I'm sure that there is somewhere, there, which prove to be a happy medium for me.


The climate is something you get use to. Like shirt sleeve weather of 40 degrees in March in IN or OH.

Last night here in Phoenix/Chandler it was shirt sleeve and nice at 100.

In NY you are indoors 3 months of the year winter, here we swap that for air-conditioning in the summer. But it is a *dry heat*.

I would definitely stay away from the vortexes of Sedona (weather is nice but a lot of kooks). Not to mention they have polluted the city with traffic circles (or round abouts), that no one understands.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

AZdave said:


> The climate is something you get use to. Like shirt sleeve weather of 40 degrees in March in IN or OH.
> 
> Last night here in Phoenix/Chandler it was shirt sleeve and nice at 100.
> 
> ...


I never understood what that was all about? Gotta' admit it is beautiful there. Too "touristy" for me. A lot of "yuppies" wandering about, oohing and aahing. Indeed there are those traffic circles, and the tourists not knowing where the hell they are going?

It's a dry heat alright, but it's still hot as hell. Ever see those T-shirts with two skeletons making the statement "but it's a dry heat"? My favorite place in Arizona is the Sonoran Desert with it's hauntingly, mysterious landscape and all the creatures that survive out there. The rock formations and desert vegetation is mesmerizing. There's just nothing like it anywhere else in the world. In spite of it's harsh environment the place is teaming with life. A fascinating place indeed! The Mojave Desert is pretty bland by comparison, more like a baked endless sandbox.


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## Scorpion8 (Jan 29, 2011)

NLAlston said:


> I wonder if that is a law just in THIS state, and that other States might be a bit more lenient, in this regard?


You need to move. Draconian is the term most closely associated with that kind of Stazi-level-control. Family day at the range is one of those "normal" family things.


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## otisroy (Jan 5, 2014)

NLAlston said:


> ... an off duty Officer might be present, at a stall, and see (maybe) a gun handling characteristic that he/she might feel warrants questioning. In such a scenario, the Officer would (very likely) as for the shooter's card (permit) to be shown. My brother's not having one would, very likely, translate into my permit - AND gun - being taken.


Papers! Show me your papers!


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## SamBond (Aug 30, 2016)

Hey NLAlston,
My job took me to Phoenix in the early 1990's for a couple of years. At that time the law was open carry only.
Now, as desertman stated you can carry as you please there. I absolutely loved Arizona when I was there.
We used to go a few miles north of Phoenix, pull down some small mountain path/road and blast away. 
You REALLY should take a vacation and visit some of the places desertman suggested. You won't want to leave!
Bring your guns and experience real freedom. 

Hot? Yeah Phoenix is Hot alright. 120 was the highest I remember. But it's a dry heat... That's what the skeleton on the desert floor said. 
Strange as it may sound, up to about 100 degrees is pretty comfortable in that dry heat. 

I've always wanted to live about half way between Phoenix and Flagstaff, Gods country up that way.

It's crazy how some states have absurd laws about guns, gun ownership and shooting ranges like you have in NY.

I've found when I take someone to the range it's best to give them a crash course in range safety before we go.
If they don't take it seriously they don't go! If they 'know better' than the rules while at the range we pack up and go home Right Now!


Sam


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