# Target distances.



## NLAlston (Nov 15, 2011)

When at the range, with snubbie revolvers, what is a good distance for newbies to begin shooting at 8-1/2 " x 11". Bullseye targets?


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*1.* _Don't use bullseye targets_, unless the range won't permit anything else. Better are the silhouettes used by IPSC and IDPA. They have no scoring rings: You "aim" for the center-of-mass, or for the neck-and-head. Look at: http://www.pistoleer.com/shooting-targets/pics/IPSC(CB).jpg

*2.* _A beginner needs to see success, as soon as possible_. Otherwise, shooting becomes discouraging very quickly. When I have taught a beginner, I have started her off with her target as close as six feet (two yards) away. That's a realistic self-defense distance, and it's easy for a beginner to to hit well.

• When the beginner has learned enough about maintaining a proper sight picture and controlling a trigger all the way through a complete press, which will become evident from closer and closer groupings of a series of hits, then the target should be moved further away...perhaps to five yards (15 feet).
• The next move is to seven yards (21 feet), the width of a normal room. After that, 10 yards; and then 15 yards. I suggest that 20 yards is a very long distance for a beginning pistol shooter, and 25 yards can be complete torture. (At 25 yards, I go prone. There's time to do that because most opponents can't hit you at 25 yards.)

The big difficulty is maintaining a smooth trigger press, without moving the pistol's sights around on the target. To learn how to do that, especially with your double-action revolver, you will have to do a lot of "dry-fire" practice. "Dry-fire": You "shoot" inside your own home, after emptying the pistol of all ammunition and moving all ammunition out of the room.
Your "opponent" is a blank wall: Not a TV; not a picture; definitely not a window; absolutely not a mirror. You do consecutive trigger presses (not "pulls") while gripping the gun very tightly and "isolating" your trigger finger (making it move, independent of your other fingers). The object is to accomplish a trigger press without seeing any movement of the sights, either sight-to-sight, or sights-to-wall.
_Do this practice for no longer than 10 minutes_, and then stop. Making yourself (and your fingers) tired will teach you all of the wrong things. Do 10 minutes, once a day, for the rest of your life, and you will eventually become a wonderfully skilled pistol shooter.

Drawing from the holster is an entirely different skill. You learn that only _after you have learned how to shoot_.


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with Steve... use the Crawl, Walk, Run approach and develop good shooting habits and grasp the fundamentals when starting out... assuming that you're a novice. 

There is nothing wrong with starting out at 3 yards and moving the target further once your making clover leafs. Extend out to 5,7,10 and move out to 25 yards (only once your grouping at closer distances). Having a snubby, with it's short barrel, I'd plan on staying in the 5, 7 & 10 yard range for practical purposes based on your choice of firearm.

Nowadays, I use printer paper (11x14?) or dessert-size paper plates over costly silhouette targets, although I still find them much more useful than Bullseye style targets. I assume (you didn't mention) your shooting for self defense since a snubby revolver isn't the ideal choice for target shooting or range fun.

Good luck and don't get discouraged... shooting well takes times and plenty of practice.


----------



## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

*Bullseye*



NLAlston said:


> When at the range, with snubbie revolvers, what is a good distance for newbies to begin shooting at 8-1/2 " x 11". Bullseye targets?


I prefer using and teaching with Bulleye targets. For one, they are standardized for the range stated on the target. For example, a 50 yard target has larger rings making it the same as a target meant for 25 yards. They are scaled for the stated distance so the target picture remains the same. Regardless, i understand you'd be much closer when you're just beginning. Still, I like the idea of getting used to a particular target type.

Secondly is sight picture. Many of my handguns are sighted at six o'clock. I shot 2700 competition for over 30 years. This means the sights are correct slightly below the black part of the target while the bullet strikes X-Ring. Again, this is more advanced for several types of shooting, but nonetheless, something one might wish to consider for later use and something to get used to early on as far as target choice is considered.

Also, and this is purely my opinion, but I think many younger shooters shoot silhouette targets for a "kewlness" factor. They are shooting people. They'd probably not sell many shaped like a pig or a puppy. Moreover, I want scoring rings so I can tell if I'm doing better. If I want just groups, I'll turn the target over and shoot the blank side. You'd be amazed at how much tighter a novice's groups become shooting blank paper. Try it. 

Finally, there is a man named Bill Blankenship who I met years ago. I bought his book at the time, and I still consider it the most contributing factor to what success I had in the sport. Bill is the best shot I've personally met. He shot on the U.S. Army Pistol Team and was the winner of the National Championship five years in a row. Here's a short summary of his book at this link. The general principles can be adapted from Bullseye to combat shooting.

Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol

The above is purely my opinion and your mileage may vary. Take care and have fun. 

Craig


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Craigh said:


> ...If I want just groups, I'll turn the target over and shoot the blank side. You'd be amazed at how much tighter a novice's groups become shooting blank paper...


...And that is exactly the point of my suggestion...and TAPnRACK's too.

Also, I'm not sure that a pistol meant for defensive carry (the OP's stated intent) should be sighted in (zeroed) for a six-o'clock hold.
I suggest, rather, that a defensive weapon should hit as close as possible to where its sights are held.


----------



## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

I use a silhouette with a one inch red sticker dot. I start at 7 yards and fire for grouping. Then move to 10, 15 & 20 etc! You'll find your point of aim(POA) and Point of impact POI) that way, and what load your pistol likes. I have my own range out back so I can use any targets I want. I use this system when I get a new pistol and a new Load. Hope this helps.


----------



## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

Steve, I use the 6 o'clock hold for point shooting at close range. CQB. I just wouldn't tell any prosecutor that I was "Point shooting"! right? I'd just want a new shooter to get used to shooting his new-to-him pistol. jmo


----------



## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And that is exactly the point of my suggestion...and TAPnRACK's too.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure that a pistol meant for defensive carry (the OP's stated intent) should be sighted in (zeroed) for a six-o'clock hold.
> I suggest, rather, that a defensive weapon should hit as close as possible to where its sights are held.


Hey Steve. I wasn't suggesting a 6 O'clock hold for defensive shooting so much as one of several reasons to get used to round Bullseye targets in case the OP decides later to become a target shooter in many types of competition. My defensive weapons and hunting weapons are generally sighted x-ring, but my competitive handguns are indeed sighted 6 O'clock. In combat scenarios it probably wouldn't make so much of a difference.

I agree with sometimes using a blank paper target for grouping as well as flinch detection. I've done so many times while training, including myself. It's a good tool. Sometimes a colored sticky dot in the center also helps. As a steady diet, I prefer targets with scoring rings. At our range at the ranch, pop cans, bottles, metallic shapes, etc. make for fun and training.

Take care. 

Craig


----------



## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

I usually use silhouette targets but I don't think the target type makes all that much difference. I would simply make the target or target backstop big enough so that the shooter can clearly see where a miss went, so that they can appropriately correct.

When I am shooting a brand new to me pistol I have never shot before, or teaching an entirely new shooter to shoot, I will usually start at 3 yards. I agree that shooting at long distances too early can be discouraging. I find that many shooters can pretty quickly go to 5-7 yds. Once the grouping is reasonable, I try or have them try 10-12 yds, and perhaps consider 15 yds if I or they are doing really well.

Shooting at distances greater than 15 yds is a challenge for most new shooters, and even some more experienced shooters such as myself. I think it can be helpful however, in detecting and correcting small errors in technique. A small sight misalignment or minor glitch in trigger control that might not be too obvious at 10 yds or less, becomes very obvious at 20-25 yds.

For shooting at distances of 20-25 yds I think a 9" diameter paper plate makes a fine target. Draw a colored dot in the center with a magic marker if you like. If you can keep your shots on a 9" paper plate shooting freehand at 25 yds, I think you are doing just fine from a combat shooting perspective.


----------



## dereckbc (Jan 2, 2016)

Good luck getting a straight answer. Been there and done that. What I learned watching people I respect and impressed with use used silhouettes and put those 3 x 3 Post-A-Note stickies on them, or just paper plates. As your grouping improves, keep moving them back 1 yard at a time. Start at 3 to 5 yards.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

NLAlston said:


> When at the range, with snubbie revolvers, what is a good distance for newbies to begin shooting at 8-1/2 " x 11". Bullseye targets?


*Snubbie revolvers are not meant for target shooting.* They are designed for personal self defense. They are often called "belly guns" and for good reason. I would as others suggested practice dry firing to get used to the trigger pull. Then where appropriate and with an unloaded weapon practice drawing and firing as if you were in a self defense situation. Use one hand as you may not have time to assume a shooting stance, take aim and assume a two hand hold as you would at a range. Once you've got that down pat you can move on to live ammunition and practice hitting a silhouette target by drawing and firing with one hand. Distance should be at around 10 ft. or less. There's a big difference between using a gun for self defense and plinking away at a range.

If it's bullseye target shooting you're after you've chosen the wrong gun.


----------



## NLAlston (Nov 15, 2011)

desertman said:


> *Snubbie revolvers are not meant for target shooting.* They are designed for personal self defense. They are often called "belly guns" and for good reason. I would as others suggested practice dry firing to get used to the trigger pull. Then where appropriate and with an unloaded weapon practice drawing and firing as if you were in a self defense situation. Use one hand as you may not have time to assume a shooting stance, take aim and assume a two hand hold as you would at a range. Once you've got that down pat you can move on to live ammunition and practice hitting a silhouette target by drawing and firing with one hand. Distance should be at around 10 ft. or less. There's a big difference between using a gun for self defense and plinking away at a range.
> 
> If it's bullseye target shooting you're after you've chosen the wrong gun.


Yes, I full well understand that snubbies are not meant for target shooting; owing to the fact of their barrells being too short. Armed with that awareness, I am not expecting to 'drill' the center marked locations of longer distanced targets, with my snubbies. But I have seen many videos of shooters (with the very same snubbies I'll have) marking exceptionally well on targets that were at least twice the distance of my 20ft attempts. I remember one, in particular, who gave himself a 15 yard spread (which, as we all know, is 45ft) from his target - and who did very well on his silhouette target. And, again, he was shooting an SP-101. Can I say that I will reach that level of ability? Well, let me put it like this: if I DON'T, it won't be due to a lack of practicing . I'm just striving to be as good, and as accurate as I can - with my guns.

I have received a HUGE wealth of information from forum members, here, and I can't thank you all enough. The technique building exercises - and everything else that's been shared - amounts to a level of gratitude that I just don't have words for.

I often read back over all responses (as well as responses to threads started by others) in my bid to committ the valuable information to a permanent station in my mindset. It's like having some very knowledgable instructors at my side, to teach and guide me along the way.

Yes, I AM truly grateful.

Blessings,
Nathan


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Thank you for the kind words Nathan, I'm sure everyone reading your post appreciates them. Pretty much everyone here is happy to help others and share knowledge gained over years... and most of us are still learning, lol.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"We endeavour to please, sir." -Jeeves (P.G. Wodehouse)

I, for one, seem to have developed a strong urge to teach.
As I am almost about to enter my ninth decade (in just a year and a little bit), I find that I can no longer do all those things that once I could.
For instance, my wife can now outshoot me. (Oh, where has all my macho gone...?) She was once my backup, but now I'm hers.
So I guess that it's time for me to try to pass on all of the information that I've accumulated, especially to new shooters.
And that's why I'm still here, and why I'm still writing this stuff.


----------



## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Barrel length per se has little, if any effect on accuracy. Some rounds may not reach their full potential muzzle velocity in a short barrel, but that is unlikely to be much of a factor when shooting at 25 yds distance or less.

What will be a factor is the shorter sight radius (distance between front and rear sights). This will make precise sight alignment more difficult.

Most critical is trigger control: a smooth, rearward trigger press without altering the sight alignment and without anticipating the trigger break (which tends to promote jerking the trigger). Trigger control can best be developed with dry fire practice as Steve outlined.

Precise sight alignment is the next most important factor. Even a relatively small misalignment of the sights will result in a large miss at distances of 20-25 yds. It is more important to focus on the precise sight alignment than the exact point of aim on the target. This is one of the reasons that virtually all handgun marksmen advise focusing the eyes on the front sight, not on the target. Shooting freehand, you will experience some "arc of movement" of the pistol relative to the target and you need to accept that. As the gun moves the sight picture will drift a bit across the bullseye. Resist the temptation to jerk the trigger right as the sights cross the bull, as doing so will almost certainly result in pulling the sights off target.

With refinement of stance and grip, and a lot of practice, the arc of movement will become less and your accuracy will improve.


----------



## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

One foot
two foot

lead shoot
dead crook

:thumbs up to the others. 
Start close, get proficient, then slowly add range. 5 to 15 yards is where it will likely happen. 
Longer range is still good for skill honing especially for hunting.

I use a cartoon - but life sized - woodchuck [photocopy] , or 6" paper plates from a dollar store.


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Here's my range set up from yesterday using plates and pieces of paper.







Set up one of my barricades for some unconventional positional training.







Using plates marked with numbers, colors and shapes can create a Target ID drill where a partner calls out either a number, color or shape and the shooter puts accurate hits on the designated target. Gets you thinking and can be enhanced to increase difficulty by calling out multiple combinations. Turns 3 plates into 9 possible targets.


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

There is an endless number of drills and courses of fire possible using paper, plates and 3x5 cards... all that will enhance and develop a shooters skill set.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pblanc said:


> Barrel length per se has little, if any effect on accuracy...


While this is generally true, barrel length can control sight radius (if the front sight is at the muzzle end of the barrel); and the longer the sight radius, the more accurate the shooter can be...once he has mastered trigger control and the other necessary techniques.


----------



## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> While this is generally true, barrel length can control sight radius (if the front sight is at the muzzle end of the barrel); and the longer the sight radius, the more accurate the shooter can be...once he has mastered trigger control and the other necessary techniques.


Yes and I did, in fact, say just that.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pblanc said:


> Yes and I did, in fact, say just that.


My apologies.
I read your post, but not carefully enough.

Sorry.


----------

