# Now I'm not sure



## mikemc53 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just finished the class for my CPL and applied yesterday.

Originally I was convinced that I wanted to go with a 9mm subcompact for a couple of reasons. Now I'm not so sure. First of all I want something that is easily concealed and carried - understanding that I am pretty darn small and know that I won't carry if it is too bulky or heavy. There are some smaller 9's available so I was looking that way. I also have spoken to 3 people who are either currently on the job (police), or recently retired, and surprisingly each of them recommended a .380. None of them felt that the extra punch gotten with the 9's was enough to make much difference in the majority of situations and since the most effective gun is the one that you will carry...the .380 seemed to fit.

I am not looking to spend a lot, and I may end up getting a second gun for home and range, but for now I'd like to get anyone's opinion on good, bad, whatever, 380's and maybe some reasons.

It is my understanding that even with the reduced sizes in 9's, there are still more and lighter .380's out there. Also, since any of the small ones are going to be a little snappy I'm looking for thoughts on any that might be just a touch more comfortable than maybe some others.

I know this gets asked a lot but I'm hoping that there will be enough interest to help me out.

By the way, the responses to my post on subcompact 9's was extremely helpful and will be part of the decision-making process.

Thanks.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Check into a S&W .380 BodyGuard.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

I carry a S&W Bodyguard semi auto........front pocket carry, in Desantis holster......never cared for IWB or OWB carry much...not very comfortable......carrying on the belt pulls your pants down from the weight, I don't leave shirts untucked, which causes a problem with IWB. When riding in an automobile, I take it out and put it directly in front of me in the console. If you practice grabbing your pant leg with your weak hand, and drawing the firearm strong hand, IMHO, it's just as fast as OWB or IWB. With this type of holster, you can still draw with one hand if need be, but using the other, if possible, makes it a bit easier and faster. Some people do not think that .380 is a large enough caliber for CCW. I feel that it is...especially when you look at statistics, as far as threat stoppage. I chose the Bodyguard, because for the price point, it had the best sights(nothing spectacular) it had the best DA trigger for me, is built with a sturdier feel, compared with other .380's. So far, it has eaten everything it has been fed..mostly WWB 95 gr. fmj, and Rem. UHD 102 gr.jhp. It has a manual safety. I don't like single action firearms for pocket carry, because of the safety issue....I won't carry cocked and locked. I have fired the comparable pocket Ruger's and Sig's, and Walther's, and prefer the Bodyguard. The Ruger feels cheap, and the sights are not very good. The Walther's have terrible triggers, and are heavier IMO. They are all snappy in recoil, and require some time to get used to, which can be difficult, since these types of firearms are not built to be range guns. They are designed for 10 yds. and under. If you keep this in mind, you can be very accurate at this distance. In colder weather, this of course changes, because my options open up greatly, and I am able to carry a larger caliber firearm. If you are serious about the .380, you need to shoot many types if at all possible. They don't have alot to hang on to, and after you check some out, you may change your mind on the .380. For me, it's about convienience, reliability, concealability.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

How about the Beretta px4 storm, 9mm?


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

mikemc53 said:


> Just finished the class for my CPL and applied yesterday.
> 
> Originally I was convinced that I wanted to go with a 9mm subcompact for a couple of reasons. Now I'm not so sure. First of all I want something that is easily concealed and carried - understanding that I am pretty darn small and know that I won't carry if it is too bulky or heavy. There are some smaller 9's available so I was looking that way. I also have spoken to 3 people who are either currently on the job (police), or recently retired, and surprisingly each of them recommended a .380. None of them felt that the extra punch gotten with the 9's was enough to make much difference in the majority of situations and since the most effective gun is the one that you will carry...the .380 seemed to fit.
> 
> ...


Ask your police buddies if they would carry that .380 as their primary side arm. I bet they say no. If you are going to carrying a gun for protection I suggest you carry one designed to be a fighting pistol. In the small guns arena the only one that comes to mind is the S&W shield. Remember this is just my opinion..


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Harryball said:


> Ask your police buddies if they would carry that .380 as their primary side arm. I bet they say no. If you are going to carrying a gun for protection I suggest you carry one designed to be a fighting pistol. In the small guns arena the only one that comes to mind is the S&W shield. Remember this is just my opinion..


Why does the .380 not have enough man power? I've always heard a .380 is good for your wife as its smaller, less recoil and not as much pizazz!

Would you say a 9mm is enough fire power?


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> Why does the .380 not have enough man power? I've always heard a .380 is good for your wife as its smaller, less recoil and not as much pizazz!
> 
> Would you say a 9mm is enough fire power?


I never mentioned firepower, never even implied that. I said fighting pistol. A pistol that can be used in a dynamic situation. Most of you .380 are so small, making a mag change can be a chore. In terms of a SD gun, I would think the OP would be better served by a fighting pistol.

The smaller the handgun the more difficult it is to shoot, thus giving a wife a .380 mouse gun would not be one of my recommendations to one of my female students. I personally believe that there is a lot of mis information out there regarding handgun use and choice.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I've never heard anyone (until now) use the term_ *fighting pistol*_.

And, I've been around firearms for well over 40 yrs. Even did a stint in the Army.

I'm all for education. Please educate me. :watching:


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> I've never heard anyone (until now) use the term_ *fighting pistol*_.
> 
> And, I've been around firearms for well over 40 yrs. Even did a stint in the Army.
> 
> I'm all for education. Please educate me. :watching:


Without getting into writing an essay. If you can run your pistol, like they do in the video, you have a fighting handgun. If you cannot. Then IMO you need to rethink what you are carrying...It also involves mindset, In fact mindset is probably most important...And yes I have been thru this class....


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

The pocket sized .380s fill a unique niche for guns to be carried when concealment is the largest concern but there are certain variables that negate the overall desirability of the platform.

The small size and lightweight coupled with typical heavy triggers and lack of sights make for a headaches when it comes to new shooters.

There's not much to hang on to to get a good grip.
The lightweight and lack of overall mass make for more felt recoil, the heavy trigger makes it harder to learn proper trigger control.

While a mid-sized 9mm may cost notr, if you plan on shooting a lot the higher cost of .380 ammo will offset the savings on the gun side. 

In a pocket platform, the .380 makes a little more sense, in a subcompact or compact the 9mm is the better choice.

If not looking for a pocket gun, I would look at the Beretta 84 and 85, maybe a Sig 232. Just be advised that some .380s will have more felt recoil than some 9mm offerings. And the guns I listed are heavier .380s but they will be easier to shoot.

For general carry purposes, you just can't beat a midsized 9mm like the Glock 19 or Smith M&P Compact.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> For general carry purposes, you just can't beat a midsized 9mm like the Glock 19 or Smith M&P Compact.


:smt023


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

mikemc53 said:


> Just finished the class for my CPL and applied yesterday.
> 
> I also have spoken to 3 people who are either currently on the job (police), or recently retired, and surprisingly each of them recommended a .380. None of them felt that the extra punch gotten with the 9's was enough to make much difference in the majority of situations and since the most effective gun is the one that you will carry...the .380 seemed to fit.


I could not disagree more, the best .380 load is not even comparable to the best 9mm load and even a mediocre load in 9mm. This is my opinion, but I'm of the FBI school of thought that 12 inches of penetration through denim in ballistic gel or in ballistic gel is a minimum. In a confrontation you will not be assured of a full frontal shot, or the weight and size and what clothing an individual may be wearing. Are you planning on using the .380 as a back up gun? If you want to go micro in a pocket than a .380 platform may fill the bill, but with the superior flexibility and ballistics and cost of 9mm in a very small package I just don't see how anyone would choose a 380 over a 9mm for a primary or even a secondary. See if any .380 can come close to this coming out of a 3 inch barrel and if you can you may have changed my mind, but you won't. You make the decision. The loading below is on par with the best .40cal and .45cal load and there isn't any .380 anywhere near the ballpark. A .380 will certaintly work, but i do believe a 9 is optimum in most situations over 380.

9mm Federal 147 Grain HST +P Clear Gel Test - Short Barrel - YouTube


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Okay, I watched the video and now understand the term. I've been thru similar classes. 

But, for the average person, they won't be willing to be that dynamic and put up with that much stress. Classes such as that, appeal to a small percent of gun owners. Would it be great if everyone was able to take and complete such a class? Yes it would. But, in the real world, they won't even come close. 

LE, military, body guards, security, etc., I see taking such a class. The vast majority of gun owners aren't going to be able to do a tactical mag. exchange, or exchanging mags while on a dead run. 

The vast majority of gun owners aren't going to run thru a full magazine, and then find out that they need another. Many gun owners just aren't in a good enough physical shape to even consider such training, let alone the stress that is involved. 

The vast majority of gun owners will never find the need to draw down on someone, let alone take a life. Yes, it does happen, but not as often as it does in the movies. 

Good training? A big yes! But not nearly for everyone.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Double post


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

So are you guys saying that the .380 is pretty much a useless round and should be sh*t-canned, or left for the novices?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I have a couple of .380's. I own them for a reason. They are indeed effective, if used properly. 

It's not a useless round. Actually, I can't even think of a truly useless round. They all have their place in the firearms industry, and serve a purpose. 

I carried a .380 as a back-up for years. Fortunately, I never had to use it. But, if I had, I knew that it would have been a kill or get killed situation. 

It's a personal choice and one made by the user. It's not good for everything, but neither is a butter knife.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

So what do you carry now?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> So what do you carry now?


I acquired a SIG P250C in .40 cal. a while ago. I took it in on trade for a new Echo weed-eater. That's true, even though it sounds silly.

Anyways, I liked it so much that I decided to start using it when I decide to carry. I don't carry all the time anymore, like I used to all the time during my career.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Okay, I watched the video and now understand the term. I've been thru similar classes.
> 
> But, for the average person, they won't be willing to be that dynamic and put up with that much stress. Classes such as that, appeal to a small percent of gun owners. Would it be great if everyone was able to take and complete such a class? Yes it would. But, in the real world, they won't even come close.
> 
> ...


I fully understand your point, but allow me to ask a question. Does the bad guy that us lowly civilians have to deal with differ from the bad guys the cops have to deal with?

From my experience the answer to that question is no. All of your points are well taken. It is unfortunate like you said, we have a bunch of coach commandos out there, saying one thing and doing another. Personally I find that unacceptable. If we are going to carry a gun, we should know how to use it. Even folks with handicaps have no excuse...Whether you agree with yeager or not, the individual in the video is an inspiration and puts the excuses you listed into a different perspective.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

double post


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Harryball said:


> I fully understand your point, but allow me to ask a question. Does the bad guy that us lowly civilians have to deal with differ from the bad guys the cops have to deal with?
> 
> From my experience the answer to that question is no. All of your points are well taken. It is unfortunate like you said, we have a bunch of coach commandos out there, saying one thing and doing another. Personally I find that unacceptable. If we are going to carry a gun, we should know how to use it. Even folks with handicaps have no excuse...Whether you agree with yeager or not, the individual in the video is an inspiration and puts the excuses you listed into a different perspective.


I too, understand your points and perspectives. Just because people possess and carry a handgun, doesn't mean they're going to do the right thing by it.

The most dangerous thing a person can do on a daily basis, is to get into a car and drive. I take it very seriously. Others, just hop in and assume that they will get from Point A to Point B w/o incident. They don't pay attention, try to eat while driving, turn the music up so loud, they can't hear the surrounding traffic, and a whole host of other attention detracting variables.

You simply cannot take a class like the one you mentioned just once, and forget about it. What they teach has to be practiced routinely. Muscle memory fades quickly. Reflexes slow down and go stale without practice. This is why such a class has to appeal to such a person that will practice what has been taught and preached.

Have you paid attention to the younger crowd these days? Have you noticed how unfit they are? They couldn't run a block w/o stopping to rest. It's pathetic! They also have a different mindset. Things don't seem to register as quick anymore.

Yes, I do agree, it's great training, but a bit too much for many and not for everyone.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> I too, understand your points and perspectives. Just because people possess and carry a handgun, doesn't mean they're going to do the right thing by it.
> 
> The most dangerous thing a person can do on a daily basis, is to get into a car and drive. I take it very seriously. Others, just hop in and assume that they will get from Point A to Point B w/o incident. They don't pay attention, try to eat while driving, turn the music up so loud, they can't hear the surrounding traffic, and a whole host of other attention detracting variables.
> 
> ...


Very True..Good post.

To the Bold: They are not the only game in town. A lot of instructors will run classes (myself included) that will cater to those with the problems you have stated...You are right not everyone can do that.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Have you ever heard of Calibre Press and some of the LE classes they give?

I've attended twice over the years. They used to offer 2 and 3 day courses. No shooting mind you, but just classes on being street smart and all that a cop needs to survive. Very intense training, graphic videos, and guest speakers from all different types and kinds of LE depts and agencies. 

Open only to LE personnel and you need a badge to get into the class, no press or others allowed. Dependents can't even attend. I went twice, to the seminars held in Vegas.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

First rule of a gun fight is HAVE a gun... if this means a .380 due to size & weight... so be it. Too many people get caught up on bigger is better and feel it unmanly to carry a .380. I know too many people that buy large, high cap EDC guns, then realize it's not always convenient to carry everyehere, everyday. I find I am able to carry my Sig P238 everywhere very discretely even in a t-shirt & shorts. I know a large percentage of people that take CCW/CPL classes carry for a bit but stop because of size or weight of the firearm they chose... if a firearm isen't easily concealed (size/weight) and becomes cumbersome to wear everywhere, people sometime tend to not carry. 

Most self defense engagements happen at 7 to 10 feet and involve point shooting using less than 5 rds. They happen hard and fast... and when the victim least expected it. Something to think about when choosing a caliber too.

Obviously my thoughts on an appropriate HD gun differs... as well as my opinion on carrying in a high crime area. I have multiple size firearms and base my carry choice on destination & attire... that way I have no excuse not to carry.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Have you ever heard of Calibre Press and some of the LE classes they give?
> 
> I've attended twice over the years. They used to offer 2 and 3 day courses. No shooting mind you, but just classes on being street smart and all that a cop needs to survive. Very intense training, graphic videos, and guest speakers from all different types and kinds of LE depts and agencies.
> 
> Open only to LE personnel and you need a badge to get into the class, no press or others allowed. Dependents can't even attend. I went twice, to the seminars held in Vegas.


No, I have not. Looking at their web page it looks interesting. I think I have derailed this thread. I would love to hear more, but I think we should do it in PMs. LOL....:mrgreen:


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Aw....it's not a big deal to derail a thread. I'm sure that most everyone has done it at some time or another.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> So are you guys saying that the .380 is pretty much a useless round and should be sh*t-canned, or left for the novices?


Quite the opposite. The .380 as a back up gun or ultra concealable option is great. The pros of the .380 as a small gun quickly become the cons when a couple of things happen:
[*]People start shooting thier small little .380s and don't understand thier usefullness vs. Limitations
[*]People decide to start shooting the gun that do understand thier limitations vs usefullness and want something better.

Going beyond the pocket/backup concept with a .380 just doesn't make sense, this are the two areas where they excel.

If doesn't take a lot of effort to conceal a slighly larger 9mm that can serve in more roles than a .380, but again when ultimate discretion is required, the .380 makes sense.

The only other time this doesn't pan out is if due to physical limitations etc that is too recoil sensitive to handle the 9mm but can handle a .380 in the same size equivalent gun.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

9mm is superiror, I think you would agree....


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## mikemc53 (Feb 11, 2013)

Now this is what I'm talking about! Excellent points made and some great discussion.

I am learning a little more all the time and I am enjoying the heck out of this.

By the way...very impressed with the knowledge here and the good sportsmanship. This is showing to be a top-notch forum.

Thanks gang.


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## ronmail65 (Jan 18, 2011)

As a general rule, the larger and more powerfully loaded calibers have superior stopping power. But, if you have excellent, consistent, and reliable aim -- then a 380 or even a 22LR can do the trick.

My experience - I really like and would recommend the Bersa Thunder 380. It's small, but not too small to get a good grip. The sights, trigger, and reliability are very good for a gun this size. And they are a good value. They make a concealed carry version that is slightly smaller (bobbed trigger, smoothed edges), and a slightly thicker one with a double stack magazine for more ammo. It's a small gun, but it doesn't feel like a small gun.

That said, 380 ammo is expensive -- quite a bit more than 9mm and even 38 special. A Glock 26 (9mm sub-compact) is about the same size as the Bersa and is a rock solid gun with a great reputation. Cheaper for range practice and training. A little bigger is the Glock 19 (also a 9mm) which is considered a compact, but not really compact if you ask me. Still easier to conceal than a full sized handgun.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Some years ago, I ran across a DOJ study that concluded .22LR ammo has killed more people in the USA than any other caliber(s).


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

paratrooper said:


> Some years ago, I ran across a DOJ study that concluded .22LR ammo has killed more people in the USA than any other caliber(s).


That was supposition on the part of the author with no data to support the statement.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> Some years ago, I ran across a DOJ study that concluded .22LR ammo has killed more people in the USA than any other caliber(s).


MMM, if you just go back 30 years or so, I believe that distinction would go to the most used and popular caliber in the world, and that would be 9mm. I did some research a while back concerning FBI records of officers killed in the line of duty over the past 30 years and by a 3/1 margin 9mm holds that distinction over all other calibers and that includes rifles and shot guns as well.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

denner said:


> MMM, if you just go back 30 years or so, I believe that distinction would go to the most used and popular caliber in the world, and that would be 9mm. I did some research a while back concerning FBI records of officers killed in the line of duty over the past 30 years and by a 3/1 margin 9mm holds that distinction over all other calibers and that includes rifles and shot guns as well.


Keep in mind that the info you have is for officers shot and killed and while I don't recall the percentage, a good portion of those officers were killed with their duty guns which is why most officers were killed with .38 caliber revolvers prior to the 90's were the 9mm came into large use and then supassed the .38 as the leading killer.

Paratrooper's statement regarding casualties is for the entire populous, not just slain officers.

The answer is probably somwhere in the middle but I still have a hard time beliving that the .22 has killed more "than all others combined"

To be continued...


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, my response was to the US population in general, not just LE.

I'll do what I can to locate that report. It's been quite a while, but I do recall reading it clearly. 

There's also more .22 cal. firearms in U.S. house holds than any other caliber of firearm.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Yes, my response was to the US population in general, not just LE.
> 
> I'll do what I can to locate that report. It's been quite a while, but I do recall reading it clearly.
> 
> There's also more .22 cal. firearms in U.S. house holds than any other caliber of firearm.


Really? why? I've always heard that .22's are pea shooters and good for target practice due to cheap ammo. But if your in a pinch, good luck. Barely can pierce skin I"ve heard.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

paratrooper said:


> It was a DOJ study that was done back in the early 1980's.
> 
> It was a restricted study that was basically for LE statistics, that pertained to US firearm ownership.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf



> *Probably more people in this country have been killed by .22 rimfires than all other calibers combined, which, based on body count, would compel the use of .22's for self-defense. The more important question, which is sadly seldom asked, is what did the individual do when hit?*


That's opinion. There is no database of a majority of non LE shootings that contain caliber. The CDC, DOJ, AND FBI have some good stats on type of guns used, but when it comes to calibers there just isn't enough data available.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

I'm working pulling some more info in on this but have a busy weekend, hope to have something more in depth Sunday night...


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> Really? why? I've always heard that .22's are pea shooters and good for target practice due to cheap ammo. But if your in a pinch, good luck. Barely can pierce skin I"ve heard.


Okay......so now I have to ask. Just how old are you?

"Barely pierce the skin".........you've heard?

I don't even know where to start....................


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> Okay......so now I have to ask. Just how old are you?
> 
> "Barely pierce the skin".........you've heard?
> 
> I don't even know where to start....................


I'm joking my friend, I've just heard that its not exactly a round for self defense per se.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> I'm joking my friend, I've just heard that its not exactly a round for self defense per se.


It wouldn't be my first choice, that's for sure.

But, never under-estimate it's lethality. It _*can be*_ a very effective round, under the appropriate circumstances.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> It wouldn't be my first choice, that's for sure.
> 
> But, never under-estimate it's lethality. It _*can be*_ a very effective round, under the appropriate circumstances.


Very true it can be very lethal, but you and I both know that when it comes to self defense we are not worried about lethal. We want the round to incapacitate them, IE stop the threat.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Harryball said:


> Very true it can be very lethal, but you and I both know that when it comes to self defense we are not worried about lethal. We want the round to incapacitate them, IE stop the threat.


True, but I was more or less trying to make the point, that no matter how small or innocuous it may be, it still can still be deadly.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> True, but I was more or less trying to make the point, that no matter how small or innocuous it may be, it still can still be deadly.


No argument from me. It is deadly. I just do not want folks to mistake deadly, for incapacitation. :smt023


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Harryball said:


> No argument from me. It is deadly. I just do not want folks to mistake deadly, for incapacitation. :smt023


Quite true.

If you look at "An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power" you will see that the .22 ranks 2nd highest in terms of lethality (looking at handguns only), but third from the bottom in in incapacitation.



















Seems kind of paradoxical so I asked the author...



> I think the two may be somewhat related...
> 
> It's a small bullet, it doesn't incapacitate well. I 'm guessing that many of the people who were hit with it (even seriously) didn't know they were hit. They didn't immediately go to the hospital for treatment. By the time they recognized they had a problem, it was too late and they died.
> Many of the people shot were criminals. They don't want to go to the hospital with a gunshot wound. They see a little .22 hole in their skin and they say "that ain't shit" as they slowly bleed to death internally.
> One other factor to consider is that the .22 is outside lubricated. It picks up all kinds of crap as it goes down the barrel and through clothing. It carries all that crap into the wound. The death rates from infection are likely higher with it than with other bullets.


So yeah, while it's certainly lethal it's not immediately so based on that particular study.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

About the only round that I would put 100% faith into, as far as instant incapacitation, would be the .50 cal. BMG. 

That sucker could hit you in your ankle, and rip you leg off, clear up to your hip.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> About the only round that I would put 100% faith into, as far as instant incapacitation, would be the .50 cal. BMG.
> 
> That sucker could hit you in your ankle, and rip you leg off, clear up to your hip.


Kinda hard to conceal one of those...LOL


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Harryball said:


> Kinda hard to conceal one of those...LOL


Awww, one with a 2.5" barrel wouldn't be so bad. :mrgreen:


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