# Which barrel looks better of these 2?



## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

The hi-point appears to have 3 lands and 3 grooves, the Jiminez .22 appears to have more and actually looks better to me. ? Also the C9 appears to have no crown at all.
JA-22, C9









Top JA-22, bottom C9


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Is this a question of æsthetics?
I ask because otherwise your question seems to me to be meaningless.
The real question has got to be: "Which of these barrels delivers a more accurate shot?" And that can only be decided by actually shooting them.

I own a Springfield M1903A3 rifle with a two-groove barrel. Yup, only two lands and two grooves.
But it shoots as well as, and in some cases better than, many four-groove barrel Springfields and Garands.

Cheap though they may be, Hi-Point pistols, according to their owners, seem to shoot pretty accurately.


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

I thought maybe you could look at a barrel and tell if it should shoot good. The crown on the Hipoint looks bad or non exsistant to me. I also thought more twists was better

wow two-groove? that doesnt seem possible.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

BowerR64 said:


> I thought maybe you could look at a barrel and tell if it should shoot good. The crown on the Hipoint looks bad or non exsistant to me. I also thought more twists was better
> 
> wow two-groove? that doesnt seem possible.


Rifling twist rates and bullet accuracy


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

What Is the Best Number of Grooves? Barrel-makers report that, as long as the ratio of lands to grooves is relatively constant, there is no demonstrable difference in accuracy among 3-,4-,5-,6- and 8-groove barrel designs. "There isn't any advantage to the shooter. Assuming the ratio of the surface area is kept the same, the number of grooves should not have any effect. Barrel makers use different numbers of grooves for ease of manufacturing and ... marketing hype." That said, in our experience, 8-groove barrels are a little slower, and may foul a bit more quickly because there are more edges to cut into the bullet's jacket and to trap powder residue. We see no reason not to specify a 4-groove barrel if that is your preference. Moreover, IBS Hunter Champion Al Nyhus and others have had great success with Lilja 3-groove barrels. Al believes the 3-groove design cleans up more quickly and yields a bit more velocity. Famed gunsmith and wildcatter P.O. Ackley believed that, all things considered, a properly-made 3-groove barrel is optimal for most common calibers. Ackley believed 3-groove profiles can deliver higher velocities with less fouling and no significant reduction in accuracy. In the months ahead, 6mmBR.com plans to do a comparison test of various barrel formats.


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

Interesting, i figured more is better because it spins the bullet faster and would hold a better line. Thinking about it wouldnt more lines on the bullet creat fins kinda and then slow its rotation? Or maybe the lines it cuts into the bullet would creat fins to help it fly more straight.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

BowerR64 said:


> Interesting, i figured more is better because it spins the bullet faster and would hold a better line. Thinking about it wouldnt more lines on the bullet creat fins kinda and then slow its rotation? Or maybe the lines it cuts into the bullet would creat fins to help it fly more straight.


i know what you mean
velocity, friction, rate of twist, it's a science in itself..


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

BowerR64 said:


> ..._ figured more is better because it spins the bullet faster and would hold a better line..._


_
As *pic* wrote, rate of twist (that is, number of rifling turns-per-inch) is related to bullet weight and length, and also (but to a lesser degree) to velocity.
Counter-intuitively, heavier, longer bullets require a faster twist (more turns-per-inch). My muzzleloaders, firing round balls, all have about one-turn-in 72" twists (1/72 turn per inch); while my Springfields, firing 168-grain, long and narrow bullets work best with one-turn-in-10" twist (1/10 turn per inch).
The number of grooves is a much less important consideration.



BowerR64 said:



I thought maybe you could look at a barrel and tell if it should shoot good. The crown on the Hipoint looks bad or non exsistant to me...

Click to expand...

If you look down a barrel and can see pitting, rust, and big, obvious tool marks, the barrel will probably not shoot well. (Note that word "probably." It's not a certainty.)
In the case of a mangled bore, jacketed bullets are much more forgiving than are lead ones.
Barrels do not need crowning. The edge of the muzzle opening needs only be consistent, all the way around. But adding a nicely bevelled crown is a way of making the muzzle opening consistent.



BowerR64 said:



...[W]ouldnt more lines on the bullet creat fins kinda and then slow its rotation? Or maybe the lines it cuts into the bullet would creat fins to help it fly more straight.

Click to expand...

Once the bullet has left the barrel, the only things that affect it are gravity, friction, and air resistance.
The spin given the bullet by the gun's rifling does not increase as it flies through the air, because the "fins"-the marks that the gun's rifling has added to it-are insignificantly small. Instead, the rotation of the flying bullet actually decreases as it loses energy to rotational friction and to the air's resistance to its forward motion.
Further, the bullet doesn't "fly straight." Viewed from the side, the bullet describes a catenary arc, rising from the muzzle for a short distance, and then consistently falling until it hits something. Viewed from above, the bullet describes another catenary arc, turning to the left or to the right, depending upon the direction (left or right) of the gun's rifling twist. Because of this, even on a no-wind day, long range shots require added windage, as well as added elevation._


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

Does this look any better? i tried to add a crown to it using a crown tool










It couldnt make it shoot any worse could it?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Well, if the crown you added is not extremely carefully centered, and if the tool very occasionally leaned to one side more than to the other, and if the transition from crown to rifling is not really clean and sharp, yes, you might've made things worse.
I hope that you did the job on either a lathe or on a really solid drill press, and if you used a drill press, that you also used a well-clamped machinist's vise on a dead level press table.

Actually, if you exercised a reasonable amount of care, you probably did OK.


Note, BTW, that the barrel did have a crown before you started your own work. There is a slight, but noticeable, bevel inside the unmodified barrel's muzzle.
Note, also, that a properly cut barrel crown exists more to protect the muzzle end of the rifling from damage, than it does to make a more accurate barrel.


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

Nope did it on my knee with a ball grinder bit chucked up in my cordless drill. Used a little polish compound that came with a brass crown restore kit i got everything off e-bay.

At the end if the day its still just a hi-point. If it helps cool, if not no sweat.


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

Well that didnt help at all, shoots the same as it did before.


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## AntzMa (Sep 6, 2012)

How's it shooting?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

BowerR64 said:


> Well that didnt help at all, shoots the same as it did before.


Was it inaccurate, before? In what way?

Don't tell me: It shoots low and left. Correct? :yawinkle:

Hi-Point pistols have the reputation of being pretty accurate, right out of the box.
Yours wasn't?


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

I think i need to try the HI-point again, i did this to a rifle and my sig mosquito and it really helped those alot. Its been a while since i shot the 9 and i was in a bit of a hurry. I also only have 3 boxes of 9mm so i only shot like 10 rounds.

Here is the sig before and after









Here is how it shot new from the factory, and then today after i recrowned it yesterday










Then i only lapped the crown on my rifle with a brass tool off e-bay and a drill









Now it shoots better then it ever has


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## BowerR64 (Oct 2, 2012)

For the heck of it i recrowned this little mouse gun i have (JA-22) and it even tightened it up a little.










From the factory, then after recrowning it.


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