# How much is (WAY!) too much?



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

John Farnam, of DTI, is a trainer I have respected for many, many. I bought his "Street Smart Gun Book" back when I was but a wee lad of sixteen or so. I had the pleasure of finally meeting him at SHOT Show a couple years ago, and he is a very fine gentleman. However&#8230;

&#8230;on his website (www.defense-training.com), he posted the following in the "Quips" section, talking about the recent National Tactical Invitational match:

_"This year, I used my SIG/229/DAK in 40S&W, carried, as always, in my Comp-Tac/C-Tac IWB. My backup pistol was my Detonics/CM in my wonderful Lou Alessi shoulder holster. My second backup was my Kel-Tec/380 in a Comp-Tac neck holster. In addition, I carried my Cold Steel Vaquero Grande in a pocket,a Cold Steel Culloden neck knife, and a Blackhawk/HT automatic knife, also in a pocket. Finally, I carried a Blackhawk/Gladius flashlight, a Photon neck light, Fox OC, and a Boston Leather flat sap. Covering it all was my Concealed Carry Clothiers vest."_

Now, John has always been a common-sense advocate of the "train as you fight, fight as you train" approach. So I am left scratching my head. Does he carry all this stuff every day, or just at NTI? How does one live a normal life when so burdened? I mean, *three* guns, *three* knives, *two* lights, OC *and* an impact weapon? Does he have an M4 down his pants leg, too? Cripes, I am in a war zone and I don't carry all that!

In my civilian life, I normally carry one gun with one reload, one smallish folding knife, and one small Surefire light. An ASP Palm Defender (OC spray) is attached to my keys. I sometimes think I am quite the mall ninja with this stuff, though the knife and light come in handy pretty much daily. I have never used the gun or the OC for real (thank God), and I live in the nation's fifth-largest city, which is overrun with illegal aliens.

I just cannot imagine a realistic circumstance where even a police officer in America would need all the stuff John mentions, never mind Joe Citizen. Maybe I am just too much of a minimalist. As I said, I think highly of John Farnam, and hope to take a class from him someday&#8230;but this just struck me as very odd.

Of course, the longer I am away from the gun industry and doing "real world" stuff, the sillier the industry begins to look.

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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Maybe he just got into body building. I couldn't make it two blocks with all that and my bad health. Jeezzz.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

I carry a full size 45, a folding knife, a reload now. Ten years ago when I traveled to some unfriendly places I was known to carry a back-up pistol several reloads and at least 2 knives.


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## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

No such thing. 

Everyone carries what they are comfortable with. If we lined up everyone by amount of personal security and protection they have, each person can always look to their left and say "You're not prepared enough." At the same time, they can always look to their right and say "You are overdoing it." All this time, that person will say "My stuff is just right."


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## kansas_plainsman (May 9, 2006)

Robert Heinlein said that "Survival is more an art rather than it is a science." He then went on to illustrate how very different approaches worked for different people.

Now he made the comment through a fictional character, about fictional characters, but RAH was known to be an aggressive and thorough researcher. I take it that it was informed opinion on the subject back in the 50s.

Translating it to the here-and-now, I'm agreeing with the opinion expressed above - one mans burden is another man's minimal 'kit'.


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## Revolver (Aug 26, 2006)

I think "whatever floats your boat" applies here. Some may think you carry too much. I for instance don't carry OC(and won't) and I don't usually don't carry a flashlight during the day. I don't think what you carry is excessive. It just doesn't work for me. Some would say the fact that I carry "full size" revolvers and won't carry a compact as excessive. I don't like compacts and would rather carry the extra weight and size.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree that everyone needs to find their personal comfort zone. But has there _ever_ been a case where an armed citizen (or even a cop) had to use three handguns, or multiple knives, to survive a defensive situation in America? I think there comes a point where being loaded down with a giant amount of weaponry just becomes irrational.

The items I carry fit specifically into a "use of force continuum," to use faddish high-speed jargon. Granted, I do not have a whole lot of redundant capability, but where are the cases where a private citizen needed it? Playing "what if" is good to a point, but thinking about outlandish scenarios where you'd need three guns - then following through by carrying enough steel and lead to sink a small boat - seems odd. I wonder what an investigating officer or local DA would say if you shot a guy with your main gun, then opened your super-tactical "shoot me first" vest to display an array of weapons not seen since Keanu Reeves in _The Matrix_.

Years ago, in "Handguns" magazine, Mas Ayoob wrote an article about home defense where he advocated suiting up like a SWAT cop. Body armor, multiple handguns, a Steyr AUG, multiple spare mags, flashlights, chem lights, ballistic goggles, the whole bit. It was about that time that I quit taking Mas too seriously on "tactical" stuff, and I still have a hard time with internet commandos who say you absolutely need an M4gery with six spare mags to defend your home.

I understand the industry makes (lots of) money on guys who buy into this, and that may be the primary motivation behind all this, rather than a realistic assessment of the threat to Joe Citizen in everyday America.


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## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> I agree that everyone needs to find their personal comfort zone. But has there _ever_ been a case where an armed citizen (or even a cop) had to use three handguns, or multiple knives, to survive a defensive situation in America? I think there comes a point where being loaded down with a giant amount of weaponry just becomes irrational.


Consider airport security. Before 9/11, George Carlin's stand up comedy act included a segment on how absurd and overboard airport security was. It was something to laugh about. Today, the situation is totally different. I'm not saying we need three handguns, multiple knives and a blackbelt in some martial art. I'm just saying that it is impossible to define what's enough and what's overboard.

I carry a single semi-auto pistol. No back up mags. No back up guns. I may not be as prepared as others but it's not my only weapon against becoming a victim. I also avoid shady places and always let the hot headed rude driver get around me without incident.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

propellerhead said:


> Consider airport security. Before 9/11, George Carlin's stand up comedy act included a segment on how absurd and overboard airport security was. It was something to laugh about. Today, the situation is totally different. I'm not saying we need three handguns, multiple knives and a blackbelt in some martial art. I'm just saying that it is impossible to define what's enough and what's overboard.
> 
> I carry a single semi-auto pistol. No back up mags. No back up guns. I may not be as prepared as others but it's not my only weapon against becoming a victim. I also avoid shady places and always let the hot headed rude driver get around me without incident.


Well-stated points. But taking your airport security analogy, if we followed John's advice, we'd strip-search and interrogate every passenger before they boarded, "just in case." And while it could be done, it would be so inconvenient that it would make air travel impossible for normal people.

If I seriously thought I needed three guns and a wide variety of impact weapons, I wouldn't leave my house. I'd just sit there with my M4 aimed at the door, and my quality of life would only be marginally less than if I carried all the armament John talks about.

Your points on avoidance are excellent. That falls under the "mindset" thing that is so much more important than hardware.


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## Rustycompass (Jun 25, 2006)

*What ever works ...*










~ this is all I carry:

* XD45 4" in a Blackhawk serpa paddle
* Spyderco Dragonfly

I have been questioned on the "bulky~ness" of the 4" 45 ACP. But it;s what I what to carry. Reason being... it's what I feel comfortable with & have TOTAL confidence in the weapon.









I initially purchased that to go on my Black Rifle but I really like it so I might start carrying it at night or on overnight trips.

I feel it's whatever measures it takes to help that person achive the level of confidence & comfort he need to feel safe.


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## P97 (May 8, 2006)




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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

We would have to interview a lot of dead people to determine what is not enough before a definitive answer to the base question could be developed.

:smt1099


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## jpruett79 (Sep 23, 2006)

This past winter i was in a rater unsafe neighborhood passing out food and blankets to some of the homeless population. I was carrying 3 handguns and 3 extra mags. However under different circumstances i would not go to places were i was compelled to carry that much.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

TOF said:


> We would have to interview a lot of dead people to determine what is not enough before a definitive answer to the base question could be developed.
> 
> :smt1099


Not so sure about that, at least as it relates to Farnam's quote. I mean, can anyone produce a case of a private citizen who used a pistol that ran out of ammo or malfunctioned, then drew a second gun and did the same, then drew yet ANOTHER gun and continued the fight? Whether they lived or died, such a case would certainly draw some attention.

Mas Ayoob did write of one gun shop owner who very aggressively used an AR15, a submachinegun, and IIRC a pistol. But this guy fired almost 200 rounds for very, very few hits in a rather questionable "defensive" scenario.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> <snip>
> 
> Now, John has always been a common-sense advocate of the "train as you fight, fight as you train" approach. So I am left scratching my head. Does he carry all this stuff every day, or just at NTI? How does one live a normal life when so burdened? I mean, *three* guns, *three* knives, *two* lights, OC *and* an impact weapon? Does he have an M4 down his pants leg, too? Cripes, I am in a war zone and I don't carry all that!
> 
> <snip>


I know John. I can assure you that, yes, that is his daily carry gear, not just at NTI. I think it's a little much, but that's a different issue. As to whether he is being a gamesman, or training with what he carries -- that's what he carries.

John covers it all with one of these: http://www.concealedcarry.com/
I bought one, just because it is what John uses. You would never guess that he is carrying all that stuff. (When you met him at the SHOT Show, he was wearing a vest, wasn't he? He was wearing all that gear, too, and you weren't aware of it.) I paid $70, at the SHOT Show. I have never worn it, not once. It just does not fit my style, looks goofy on me. But for John, it works, both functionally and aesthetically. Anybody who wants to give me $50 can have mine, including shipping. I've been meaning to eBay it anyway.

As to the separate issue of whether anybody could ever "need" all that stuff, the answer is no -- not all of it at once. I think what John is looking for is to always have one close, accessible, and working, whether standing, sitting, arms full of groceries or luggage, etc. He's got a "main" pistol on the strong side, another "main" pistol on the weak side, in case that's the only side available, and a backup, in case his "main" gun fails. (I have a friend whose Glock died after one shot, and he took two .44 Mags through the chest. He was wishing for a backup gun as he was bleeding on the ground; now he always has two guns on him.)

Also, I carry tons of stuff in my car. I may only have a .38 in my pocket, but there is a .45 in the center console, a .40 in my briefcase, and another .45 and a .22 in the "secret compartment" under the seats. John lives on the road, so whatever he has, it has to be on him.

Anyway, that's way more than I carry, but it is definitely John's daily gear.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

milquetoast said:


> I know John. I can assure you that, yes, that is his daily carry gear, not just at NTI. I think it's a little much, but that's a different issue. As to whether he is being a gamesman, or training with what he carries -- that's what he carries.
> 
> John covers it all with one of these: http://www.concealedcarry.com/
> I bought one, just because it is what John uses. You would never guess that he is carrying all that stuff. (When you met him at the SHOT Show, he was wearing a vest, wasn't he? He was wearing all that gear, too, and you weren't aware of it.) I paid $70, at the SHOT Show. I have never worn it, not once. It just does not fit my style, looks goofy on me. But for John, it works, both functionally and aesthetically. Anybody who wants to give me $50 can have mine, including shipping. I've been meaning to eBay it anyway.
> ...


Thanks for that. John was indeed wearing the vest when I met him. I am unsurprised he had that amount of gear under it (I do sell holsters for a living when not stuck in Third World countries). He could have had an MP5K under it, too. I knew John would have a good justification for having all that gear. "Living on the road" makes some sense.

I don't normally carry extra weapons in my vehicle. Unless wearing a suit or running, I have a Glock and a spare mag on my person, which I think will be sufficient. Though when the illegal aliens hold their rallies, I keep a rifle in the Jeep.

Glad your friend made it.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> <snip> . . . and I still have a hard time with internet commandos who say you absolutely need an M4gery with six spare mags to defend your home.
> 
> I understand the industry makes (lots of) money on guys who buy into this, and that may be the primary motivation behind all this, rather than a realistic assessment of the threat to Joe Citizen in everyday America.


Now, on that, we agree. There are a lot of postings about how much ammo to carry when the "SHTF." I can see, if you're in Afghanistan, and your weapon is full auto, and you are part of a fire team that hoses general areas while you call in artillery and air, and you have helicopters flying in resupply, that you would carry 200 rounds of ammo. But, for me, if I have 20 rounds, that should be enough to shoot 20 people. How would I need to shoot 20 people? OK, in a gunfight, maybe I'll miss. Maybe 20 rounds is only enough to shoot 10 people, or 7. When am I ever going to need to shoot 7 people? That's a lot of people!

Folks talk about the big test case, New Orleans. Considering how awful things were there, there were very, very few instances of people needing guns to defend themselves, and in those few, there were no scenarios that could not have been solved with a six-shot revolver, or a Winchester 94.

A 30-round magazine of 5.56 weighs about a pound. Rather than carry six pounds of ammo, if the "SHTF" as they say, I'd rather have 1 pound of ammo, and another 4 pounds of water and 1 pound of nutrition bars.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

milquetoast said:


> Now, on that, we agree. There are a lot of postings about how much ammo to carry when the "SHTF." I can see, if you're in Afghanistan, and your weapon is full auto, and you are part of a fire team that hoses general areas while you call in artillery and air, and you have helicopters flying in resupply, that you would carry 200 rounds of ammo. But, for me, if I have 20 rounds, that should be enough to shoot 20 people. How would I need to shoot 20 people? OK, in a gunfight, maybe I'll miss. Maybe 20 rounds is only enough to shoot 10 people, or 7. When am I ever going to need to shoot 7 people? That's a lot of people!
> 
> Folks talk about the big test case, New Orleans. Considering how awful things were there, there were very, very few instances of people needing guns to defend themselves, and in those few, there were no scenarios that could not have been solved with a six-shot revolver, or a Winchester 94.
> 
> A 30-round magazine of 5.56 weighs about a pound. Rather than carry six pounds of ammo, if the "SHTF" as they say, I'd rather have 1 pound of ammo, and another 4 pounds of water and 1 pound of nutrition bars.


Here in Afghanistan, I carry 240 rounds for the M4 and an M9 with two spare mags. There're usually extra mags in any vehicle, too. We issue a satchel that carries another six mags if necessary. This is on top of whatever crew-served weapon is in the turret - M2, MK 19, M240B - plus maybe a couple rocket launchers.

But even in Katrina, that M4 "basic load" would be a ridiculous amount of ammo. As you stated, a decent lever gun in .30-30 or .44 Mag, with maybe a buttcuff at most, would be more than sufficient - in addition to being considerably handier than the comparatively clunky M4, and vastly less expensive. This plus a normal carry pistol would get you through anything that is realistically survivable by a regular guy who isn't looking for trouble (as part of an LE or military team).

Someone should write an article about that, though I doubt any gun magazine would publish it for fear of offending the 6,713 manufacturers of AR replicas and accessories who spend advertising money.


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