# Why out of battery slide with hand insertion?



## Mike47 (Feb 2, 2014)

I own a G23, Gen 4 and have discovered I can have 13 +1 round capacity only if I feed one round from a fully loaded mag. into the barrel breech; then drop it out, put in another round and pop it back in. If I try to hand insert directly into the breech with no mag. in, the slide will not go into battery. I never encountered this with other semi-auto pistols I have owned. BTW, those all use single stack magazines. Is this the nature of all GAPs? Perhaps double stack magazines prohibit hand insertion of ammo into the breech? I could go on guessing as to why this is but I'm looking for answers; not new ways to show my ignorance. OBW, I never fired this G23 or any other Glock before. I'm not to thin-skinned so a little good-natured embarrassment won't make me psycho.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

In the Glock design, a round being fed from a magazine slips up into the claw of the extractor instead of the extractor claw riding over the rim of the case. So inserting a round into the breach and then letting the slide run to battery can possibly damage (break) the claw.

The method you have described for getting the full 13+1 load is the same method I use in all of my semi-autos since it affords the lowest probability of damage to the gun's components.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I should add that with my Glocks and my M&P's, I "ride the slide" forward to battery to avoid bullet setback. I do examine the rounds frequently to make sure they have not suffered this fate. With the Glock design, this is perfectly safe and actually is quite smooth when doing it. With the M&P design, you might have to nudge the back of the slide a little to complete its seating at the breach face.

With the Kahr pistol, you do not want to do this. In fact their manuals specifically explain that you should allow the slide to run forward on its own to strip a round from the magazine and chamber it. Always a good idea to read the owner's manuals and look for any quirks about which you may not be aware.


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## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

I carry +1 too. But I always insert the magazine with the slide locked back, then slingshot the slide (I prefer not "ride" it into battery), then drop the mag, add one round and re-insert the mag. I don't drop a round directly into the chamber, because as mentioned above, that forces the case rim over the extractor rather than slipping it under (as designed).

Rather than riding the slide and worry about setback, I simply fire the first defensive round at range, after dropping the mag and replacing it with fmj for practice. It confirms the pistol would have fired if needed while carrying and also slowly replaces the defensive ammo. I try to shoot every week, so I go through about four defensive rounds per month. Using that process I replace my 20 round box of defensive ammo around every 5-6 months.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SteamboatWillie said:


> I carry +1 too. But I always insert the magazine with the slide locked back, then slingshot the slide (I prefer not "ride" it into battery), then drop the mag, add one round and re-insert the mag. I don't drop a round directly into the chamber, because as mentioned above, that forces the case rim over the extractor rather than slipping it under (as designed).
> 
> Rather than riding the slide and worry about setback, I simply fire the first defensive round at range, after dropping the mag and replacing it with fmj for practice. It confirms the pistol would have fired if needed while carrying and also slowly replaces the defensive ammo. I try to shoot every week, so I go through about four defensive rounds per month. Using that process I replace my 20 round box of defensive ammo around every 5-6 months.


*"that forces the case rim over the extractor rather than slipping it under (as designed)"*
I believe you meant to say, "that forces the extractor to ride over the case rim..."

*"Rather than riding the slide and worry about setback"*
With a Glock, this is not going to force bullet setback if you do this smoothly. I have done this literally hundreds of times with the same bullet when loading my G23 up after trigger discipline practice and when checking the affected round, have never seen any evidence of setback. But your method is fine and an excellent way of cycling through SD ammo.


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## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> *"that forces the case rim over the extractor rather than slipping it under (as designed)"*
> I believe you meant to say, "that forces the extractor to ride over the case rim..."
> 
> *"Rather than riding the slide and worry about setback"*
> With a Glock, this is not going to force bullet setback if you do this smoothly. I have done this literally hundreds of times with the same bullet when loading my G23 up after trigger discipline practice and when checking the affected round, have never seen any evidence of setback. But your method is fine and an excellent way of cycling through SD ammo.


You are correct, sir. That is what I meant to say. My mistake.

And regarding setback, (I'm batting 1000 here) I meant that slingshotting the slide to chamber the round would cause setback if done extensively. Riding it home would not. But I prefer to slingshot the defensive round into battery.

Come to think of it, I've never chambered the same round several/many times (other than snap caps  ), so I've never personally seen one of my cartridges with any setback. I've seen photos, and heard stories, but never experienced it myself - although I'm sure it can, and does,happen.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Mike47 said:


> I own a G23, Gen 4 and have discovered I can have 13 +1 round capacity only if I feed one round from a fully loaded mag. into the barrel breech; then drop it out, put in another round and pop it back in. *If I try to hand insert directly into the breech with no mag. in, the slide will not go into battery.* I never encountered this with other semi-auto pistols I have owned. BTW, those all use single stack magazines. Is this the nature of all GAPs? Perhaps double stack magazines prohibit hand insertion of ammo into the breech? I could go on guessing as to why this is but I'm looking for answers; not new ways to show my ignorance. OBW, I never fired this G23 or any other Glock before. I'm not to thin-skinned so a little good-natured embarrassment won't make me psycho.


I don't understand why you would want to do that in the first place? It serves no purpose. That's not how a semi auto is designed to function, any semi auto. Especially those that have a fixed extractor such as a 1911 which could conceivably weaken it. Extractors are not designed to "snap" over the case rim doing this continuously could possibly damage it.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> I should add that with my Glocks and my M&P's, *I "ride the slide" forward to battery to avoid bullet setback.* I do examine the rounds frequently to make sure they have not suffered this fate. With the Glock design, this is perfectly safe and actually is quite smooth when doing it. With the M&P design, you might have to nudge the back of the slide a little to complete its seating at the breach face.
> 
> With the Kahr pistol, you do not want to do this. In fact their manuals specifically explain that you should allow the slide to run forward on its own to strip a round from the magazine and chamber it. Always a good idea to read the owner's manuals and look for any quirks about which you may not be aware.


So do I and for that very same reason. A lot depends on the gun too. I've found that on 1911's that do not have a ramped barrel the bullet nose tends to slam into the feed ramp first before entering the chamber. There is always some degree of bullet set back. Especially with hollow points. My compact Kimber's have aluminum frames along with ramped barrels that are designed to eliminate wear on the frame. Because of the ramped barrel there is less set back. Bullet set back is a lot easier to detect with cannelured bullets and a crimped case. You can tell by just looking at and comparing it to another cartridge rather than measuring it.

I've also found that in semi auto's where you can easily and slowly hand cycle a round without any perceivable resistance. Chances are that, that particular gun will give you very few if any problems in the future. I have a wide variety of different semi auto's. Those that chamber rounds easily by slowly hand cycling the first rounds have had least for me no signs of bullet set back or any issues. I can't say the same for those guns where rounds must be "slingshotted" in order for it to successfully chamber a round.

If the slide has to be "nudged" a little that's okay too as the momentum of the slide during normal firing will take care of that. Sometimes just polishing the breech face and inside of the chamber will eliminate having to nudge the slide. But like I've said that really isn't an issue.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

After chambering a round I open the slide just a tad for a visual


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SteamboatWillie said:


> You are correct, sir. That is what I meant to say. My mistake.
> 
> And regarding setback, (I'm batting 1000 here) I meant that slingshotting the slide to chamber the round would cause setback if done extensively. Riding it home would not. But I prefer to slingshot the defensive round into battery.
> 
> Come to think of it, I've never chambered the same round several/many times (other than snap caps  ), so I've never personally seen one of my cartridges with any setback. I've seen photos, and heard stories, but never experienced it myself - although I'm sure it can, and does,happen.


Using the sling shot method or the overhand method to release the slide and let it run to battery on its own multiple times with the same round will definitely put that round in jeopardy of bullet setback. BTW, the method I use to chamber a round when at the range and when practicing (snap caps) or training is the overhand method. It is very natural for me, especially when doing reloads on timed targets.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> After chambering a round I open the slide just a tad for a visual


Do you press check when doing this? With the Glock this is not necessary since the loaded chamber indicator is both visually and tactile verifiable.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

desertman said:


> If the slide has to be "nudged" a little that's okay too as the momentum of the slide during normal firing will take care of that. Sometimes just polishing the breech face and inside of the chamber will eliminate having to nudge the slide. But like I've said that really isn't an issue.


What I find interesting is that the slide on my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" barrel stops just short of going into full battery whereas my M&P 9c and 40c and my new M&P 45 Shield run all the way through to full battery just like my Glocks. Perhaps it's because my 9 Pro was purchased in July 2010 while the other three M&P's I mentioned are all rather new (the 9c is two years old). Maybe some internal changes took place and this is a nice consequence of them.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

desertman said:


> So do I and for that very same reason. A lot depends on the gun too. I've found that on 1911's that do not have a ramped barrel the bullet nose tends to slam into the feed ramp first before entering the chamber. There is always some degree of bullet set back. Especially with hollow points. My compact Kimber's have aluminum frames along with ramped barrels that are designed to eliminate wear on the frame. Because of the ramped barrel there is less set back. Bullet set back is a lot easier to detect with cannelured bullets and a crimped case. You can tell by just looking at and comparing it to another cartridge rather than measuring it.
> 
> I've also found that in semi auto's where you can easily and slowly hand cycle a round without any perceivable resistance. Chances are that, that particular gun will give you very few if any problems in the future. I have a wide variety of different semi auto's. Those that chamber rounds easily by slowly hand cycling the first rounds have had least for me no signs of bullet set back or any issues. I can't say the same for those guns where rounds must be "slingshotted" in order for it to successfully chamber a round.
> 
> If the slide has to be "nudged" a little that's okay too as the momentum of the slide during normal firing will take care of that. Sometimes just polishing the breech face and inside of the chamber will eliminate having to nudge the slide. But like I've said that really isn't an issue.


You mentioned Kimber. I have one I just decided today to sell. It's a 1997 "Classic Custom".


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> You mentioned Kimber. I have one I just decided today to sell. It's a 1997 "Classic Custom".


I've got 5 Kimbers, Super Carry Pro, Super Carry Ultra, Ultra RCP II all .45's, a Solo Carry 9mm and a Micro Raptor.380. Of the .45's the Super Carry Ultra's are the best, they work with all types of ammo and they're both "shorties" with 3" barrels. I think it's because of their ramped barrels? The Super Carry Pro is ammo picky especially with hollow points, it does not have a ramped barrel. I've had no issues with the Solo Carry and have yet to fire the Micro Raptor.

I know Kimber's have gotten mixed reviews. But I really like their compact Ultra's especially with the rounded heel at the bottom of the frame. My 1911's are basically just for fun. For EDC my preferences are either a striker fired or SA/DA semi auto .45. I've taken a real liking to my Sig P227 SAS. Tomorrow it may be my HK45C. The day after that maybe my G30 or Springfield XDM? God damn it! I've got too many to choose from. I guess my favorite all depends on the one I choose to carry on any particular day. I just bought an FNX .45 15+1, I've yet to fire it. It's not much bigger than the P227. Nice gun but it's still not a Sig. The "plastic fantastics" are all great. Lord knows I've got a bunch of 'em. But I'm still partial to all metal.


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## Mike47 (Feb 2, 2014)

SouthernBoy,
Much thanks for your very informative response to my question. The explanation of how the Glock extractor works brought understanding as I pictured, in my mind, a magazine round coming up from the magazine hitting and being directed by the barrel feed ramp up into and between the extractor claws. My previous mental picture was incorrect, as you pointed out, and does not occur in GAPs, *i.e., extractor claws striking the cartridge case and riding over the rim into the extraction groove.* So glad I didn't continue to force the issue and end up breaking extractor claws trying to achieve battery. I also believe your concern about bullet setback is wise. However, I do not reload or rechamber my self defense ammo much but I never liked to allow the slide to slam into battery under its own spring pressure so I guess I'm somewhat of a natural "slide rider." 
BTW, the Glock Owers Manual does not even address 13 +1 full loading. Paraphrasing the chapter on loading, it merely says insert a full magazine and rack the slide to chamber a round. If the slide is locked in the rear position press the slide release or pull it back a little and let'r fly.


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## Mike47 (Feb 2, 2014)

desertman said:


> I don't understand why you would want to do that in the first place? It serves no purpose. That's not how a semi auto is designed to function, any semi auto ... .


My rationale, be it ill advised, was: it seemed to be easier, with fewer steps, to hand feed a round into the chamber and insert a full magazine than to stuff in a full mag. rack up a chambered round, drop out the mag., add one more and reinsert. Maybe I just got away with it before using my old Colt Government model Mk 4 .380 and Ruger Mk 4 .22 because they very easily went into battery. Always been a shotgun and rifle guy but since I've moved away from Montana to the PNW I have given up hunting. Too many other humans and too few places to hunt with permission.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Mike47 said:


> SouthernBoy,
> Much thanks for your very informative response to my question. The explanation of how the Glock extractor works brought understanding as I pictured, in my mind, a magazine round coming up from the magazine hitting and being directed by the barrel feed ramp up into and between the extractor claws. My previous mental picture was incorrect, as you pointed out, and does not occur in GAPs, *i.e., extractor claws striking the cartridge case and riding over the rim into the extraction groove.* So glad I didn't continue to force the issue and end up breaking extractor claws trying to achieve battery. I also believe your concern about bullet setback is wise. However, I do not reload or rechamber my self defense ammo much but I never liked to allow the slide to slam into battery under its own spring pressure so I guess I'm somewhat of a natural "slide rider."
> BTW, the Glock Owers Manual does not even address 13 +1 full loading. Paraphrasing the chapter on loading, it merely says insert a full magazine and rack the slide to chamber a round. If the slide is locked in the rear position press the slide release or pull it back a little and let'r fly.


I'm very pleased my posts helped you with this.

What I always do when I purchase a new semi-auto pistol is load the magazines to their full capacity with target rounds and just let them stay that way for a few weeks. During this time I will unload partially or fully and reload them both to test their progress and to help relax the springs. I do this to take the stiffness out of the springs and make it much easier to load the mags when I put the gun into service... if it is to be a carry gun.

As for being concerned about letting the slide run forward on its own, don't be worried at all about do this. After all, that is exactly what takes place when you fire the gun, only then it is under even more abuse. But they'll take this for many, many rounds. It's pretty amazing how long parts do last on firearms when you consider what they have to go through under fire. Glock has a model 17 that has over one million rounds through it and still has the original barrel, so I've heard.

I have three G23's: two gen3's and one gen4. One of my gen3's lives in my primary carry stable and is as smooth as can be. It's sitting behind me now as I write this. It's one of my favorite carry guns.

Here's an animation video of how the Glock internals operate. Note how the next round in the magazine gets stripped from the mag and how its rim moves up from under the extractor claw.


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