# Shotshell lethality



## MichaelT. (Jun 20, 2007)

I just bought a snub nose revolver for home defense for the wife. I have considered different loadings for it for protection and also consider the safety in the home a serious matter ( shots going through walls etc... ) and was wondering if .38 shotshells are a viable alternative. We bought some and shot them into cardboard ( thick ) and they messed it up pretty badly. 

Anyone have any opinions?

Thanks,

God Bless


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

MichaelT. said:


> I just bought a snub nose revolver for home defense for the wife. I have considered different loadings for it for protection and also consider the safety in the home a serious matter ( shots going through walls etc... ) and was wondering if .38 shotshells are a viable alternative. We bought some and shot them into cardboard ( thick ) and they messed it up pretty badly.
> 
> Anyone have any opinions?


These will be VERY short on penetration in a human body. You need a bullet that digs deeply enough to destroy/traumatize vital organs and bodily structures. Opinions vary on how deep this needs to be, but tiny shot will not do it. Rather, it will only make a superficial wound. Small shot has even been defeated by heavy clothing.

The unfortunate truth is that any bullet that will penetrate a bad guy deeply enough to disable him will also sail through the walls of a typical American home. This means you need to learn to shoot carefully and set up (relatively) safe fields of fire in your home.


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

I'm with MIke, shotshells aren't what I'd use for self defense except maybe for snakes, etc. Remember also, that .38 snubby is at it's best at 10 or 15 ft. max. It's the true....."oh sh*t!" gun for last minute defense, either at home or concealed carry. Some folks get discouraged after buying a snubby and taking it to the range 'cause it hurts to shoot after not too long, but they forget it's not for plinking or hunting, just for the concealment aspect and up-close encounters when everything else has failed. Just my $.02 . :smt028


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## MichaelT. (Jun 20, 2007)

Interesting thoughts , guys. I have owned snubby's before., and the wife really likes hers. I may need to check in to the availability of fragable ammo instead. I have also thought about going and getting a Taurus " Judge " loaded with 3" 410 shells. I do think that would penetrate...:mrgreen:

Plus..... I always need more guns.:smt023

Thanks for the input , gentlemen.

Michael


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

MichaelT. said:


> Interesting thoughts , guys. I have owned snubby's before., and the wife really likes hers. I may need to check in to the availability of fragable ammo instead. I have also thought about going and getting a Taurus " Judge " loaded with 3" 410 shells. I do think that would penetrate...:mrgreen:
> 
> Plus..... I always need more guns.:smt023


You have several perfectly adequate home defense guns listed in your signature. Why not just use one of those? A USP .40 is about as good a defensive handgun as you can buy.


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## MichaelT. (Jun 20, 2007)

I bought the .38 snubby for the wife to use when I am gone some nights. I am not worried about myself, but she has very limited handgun experience, so I bought her a point and shoot for ease of use and reliability. She just shot her first semi. about two weeks ago when I took her out shooting, but that is not enough experience to hand her one and say take care of your self and the kids. The point and go bang is the best choice until I can get her more familiar and comfortable with a good semi gun. But she did like my HK..... I may not should have let her shoot that one. She always takes my best stuff.....LOL.

But like I said, if I can find a fragable ammo for the .38 wheel gun, that would serve her pretty well I guess. If the fragable ammo is available for it.


And like I also said.....I always need more guns.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

*Not no, but hell no*

I cannot say this strongly enough, or clearly enough. .38 Special shotshells are not suitable for self-defense. "Lethality" is not the issue. "Stopping" is the issue. "Saving your life" is the issue. If your assailant dies at the hospital, after chopping you to pieces with a meat cleaver, then you won't really care that the shot was ultimately "lethal."

Anything, including a shotshell, a blank, or even an unloaded gun or toy gun waved menacingly, could scare off an evil-doer, but that does not mean shotshells, blanks, unloaded guns or toy guns are good choices for self-defense. Of those four bad choices, shotshells are the worst, because they are highly unlikely to stop anybody, yet they could still kill or maim somebody.

Your wife's best choice for a .38 snubby is a good hollowpoint bullet. The Speer Gold Dot is popular these days. If your wife is uncomfortable about the idea of killing or maiming another human being, her next best choice is pepper spray.

Not shotshells. Absolutely not.


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## MichaelT. (Jun 20, 2007)

Oh NO .... neither of us have a problem with using lethal force, all I was speaking of was that a round could go through a wall and enter a childs room. SO I was asking about how likely a shotshell would incapicate or be lethal, thus lessening the chance of a round striking a child or someone in another room. Hell yes kill the bad guy..... but not our kids. If shotshell would likely kill, and I don't care if we had to shoot someone in the face or whatever, I want them stopped. 

If shotshell will not do the job, then I need to find a highly frangable bullet.

Either my thread was not fully read, or I just cannot seem to make my thoughts clear. I want to kill em dead with the least amount of force necessary, to lessen the chances of others being harmed. Others being the kids.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

In that case, still not shotshells. Highly unlikely to incapacitate, do the job of saving lives.
True, .38 shotshells won't go through drywall, but anything that won't go through drywall won't incapacitate.
You could look at Glaser Safety Slugs (about $3 per round, sold in 6-packs). My biggest problem with Glasers is that they have rather bright flash/loud noise in comparison to conventional rounds. But, they are _supposed_ to have good incapacitation of soft tissue, yet break up on contact with hard surfaces. Worth considering, anyway, for a gun that will only be used inside a house.
Hell of a problem we have, isn't it?


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## MichaelT. (Jun 20, 2007)

I'll check into some of the Glaser safety slugs, and see if there are any other options, but that at least gives me a start. Thanks for the help.


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## stormbringerr (May 22, 2007)

if its mainly for home defense get a Mossberg 12 gauge persuader w/pistol grip. a shotgun is by far the best home defense weapon.no bad guy is going to keep coming after one hit from a 12 gauge. i have read(cant remember where) that they make a special ammo for home defense but cant remember all the stats on it.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

stormbringerr said:


> if its mainly for home defense get a Mossberg 12 gauge persuader w/pistol grip.


I can't imagine a worse choice for a female non-enthusiast. It kicks very hard, is difficult to aim, is easy for a bad guy to take away, and is more complex to operate than a revolver. Don't fall for the marketing or the mall ninja looks.



> a shotgun is by far the best home defense weapon.


If you're sitting in a fixed position, perhaps. Not when you're moving around, unless you've had high-level training on room clearing and weapon retention.

If you're in a fixed position, then you don't need the pistol grip - you need a full stock.



> no bad guy is going to keep coming after one hit from a 12 gauge.


It has happened in the past, and will happen again. Guys have been hit with every round imaginable, including 12 gauge buck and slugs, and stayed in the fight. So you need to be able to fire a quick and accurate follow-up if necessary - and a hard-kicking shotgun with no stock isn't exactly optimum for that mission.



> have read(cant remember where) that they make a special ammo for home defense but cant remember all the stats on it.


The "tactical" loads recoil less than full-power loads. They are still punishing out of a pistol-grip only shotgun.

By the way, the "tang" safety on the Mossberg is slow to operate when you have a pistol grip rather than a conventional stock.


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## stormbringerr (May 22, 2007)

get a regular stock in 20 gauge then w/a short barrel, and how in the world would a shotgun be easy for a badguy to take away,i dont get that at all. im sure if you look hard enough you can find people that are hit and still keep comming by just about any type of gun. but people that keep comming let alone take the gun away after being hit by a 20 gague are like angle visits few and far between and pumping a new round in doesnt take but 0.5 second. i just mentioned pistol grip for manuverability,i agree pistol grip would not be good for this lady.also anybody you heard or read about that kept comming after being hit by 12g buck shot must have been wearing kevlar or else they were bary grazed somehow.i had a neighbor in lakeway that i knew personally that had to shoot a guy six foot six 260 lbs with a 12g and did not shoot at him well because he was on the ground when firing,the 12g buck shot blew his whole leg off.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

stormbringerr said:


> get a regular stock in 20 gauge then w/a short barrel, and how in the world would a shotgun be easy for a badguy to take away,i dont get that at all.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never been in a weapon retention course, or cleared a building with a long gun.



> im sure if you look hard enough you can find people that are hit and still keep comming by just about any type of gun. but people that keep comming let alone take the gun away after being hit by a 20 gague are like angle visits few and far between


They might be more common that you think, and you don't have to look that hard. A perusal of the literature seems in order. Read Mas Ayoob's work, for one example, to find examples of shotgun failures to stop. Every gun has failed, specifically including shotguns. This is why few people recommend single-shot weapons for self defense.



> and pumping a new round in doesnt take but 0.5 second.


That's shooter dependent. I have seen people who were VERY fast with pump guns, and others whose splits were well over a second. With some training, most people can shoot a .38 or 9mm at about four rounds per second on a 5 meter target. Follow-up shots are pretty handy if you miss or the guy doesn't stop.



> i just mentioned pistol grip for manuverability,i agree pistol grip would not be good for this lady.


So you actually recommend a 20 gauge with full stock, not a 12 gauge with no stock?



> also anybody you heard or read about that kept comming after being hit by 12g buck shot must have been wearing kevlar or else they were bary grazed somehow.


Ummmm, no. Unarmored people have taken center hits with 12 gauge buck and slugs and continued to fight. Granted, a 12 gauge is very likely to put someone down (and moreso than a .38) but _nothing_ is 100%.



> i had a neighbor in lakeway that i knew personally that had to shoot a guy six foot six 260 lbs with a 12g and did not shoot at him well because he was on the ground when firing,the 12g buck shot blew his whole leg off.


Good show! We can put that in the "success" column. But not every shooting goes down perfectly.


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## MichaelT. (Jun 20, 2007)

Well we went out shooting and she is better with the .38 than I would have thought. At 15 feet she can take out 4 out of 5 , 20 ounce soda bottles filled with H2O with standard .38 special hard nose rounds. That means she is keeping her shots consistantly within a 3 inch area. I think she might be a better shot than anticipated. It may be time to introduce her to the finer points of the semi-auto.


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