# Is the .380 bad?



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Is .380 s Bad Round? | FourGuysGuns


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

No.


----------



## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

I usually carry a 380 because of the style of dress for work. Usually pocket carry and it would be difficult to carry a 9 without it printing. I prefer the 9mm round but glad to see these test results.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

It all depends on whose on the receiving end.


----------



## Scorpion8 (Jan 29, 2011)

An endless debate that will never satisfy everyone. But I carry my Beretta 84/85s and feel quite secure.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I have and carry the Glock 42. Sometimes as my primary, sometimes as my backup to my Glock 19, depending on the scenario. One thing is for sure. The .380 is a potent round for personal defense when you consider that 97% of all defensive altercations occur withing the 7 yard radius. Sure, I would prefer a 1911 that can carry 15 rounds of .45, but that just isn't possible! So I carry the Glock 19 with 15+1 rounds and a back up mag. I also have no problem carrying the Glock 42 with a back up mag as my primary either. In the right hands a .380 is better than say rocks.


----------



## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

I have carried a .380 on and off for over 40 years.
I never felt under gunned.

AFS


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I actually sort of like it. Hey...if it is good enough for 007!


----------



## Crusader4256 (Aug 20, 2014)

My wife carries a Sig 230, even though she prefers a 1911 - something about female wardrobes, I guess. She is a dead-on shot with it at 25 ft. I carried a PPK for awhile, graduated to 9, then to .40, then back to 9. I think .380 would be fine for urban self-defense.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Me too, Crusader. I believe the .380 is a good urban self-defense round. I actually started with a 9mm, then .45, then to the vaunted .40 for years. Then there was sort of a lull in my active shooting for a time. When I got back into shooting I began to work on actual defense shooting, and through my studies and experience I realized that although I can shoot all these calibers accurately, I can get more rounds on target with the 9mm. When I say more rounds on target I mean quicker follow up shots. I actually like all the rounds mentioned. I would use any of them without hesitation! But given the choice, under the constraints of reality, I choose to carry the Glock 19. It gives me the most firepower in the most concealable platform available. If I could have all the guns I want, money being no concern, I'd have a few in all calibers to be honest, but I'd still carry the Glock 19 backed up by my Glock 42.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

The question was: "Is the .380 bad?"

My answer: Well, our two aren't. They both always behave themselves. I've never had to spank either one. No time-outs, either.


Arthritis and all, I can shoot the darn thing, and pretty accurately too.
And Jean can both hit with her P3AT, and rack its slide fairly easily. (She has trouble with anything else that's smaller than a full-size 1911.)

Better a low-power defensive weapon you can use well, than a hand-cannon that hurts you with your first shot.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Better a low-power defensive weapon you can use well, than a hand-cannon that hurts you with your first shot.


Well said!


----------



## muckaleewarrior (Aug 10, 2014)

James Bond carries the 9mm short which is the same thing. So it must be fine. I believe it can get you out of a hot situation if you know how to use. That's the same with any caliber.


----------



## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

It is a decent round but you must have proper ammo. The list is long on what works but I would try to carry the Hydra Shok or Precision one in the .380 if I could find em. Other than that remember to practice to be able to place rounds on target.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah, I agree. I have HS loaded right now, and as soon as PO is available I'm ordering two boxes. They come in 50 round boxes for around $30.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Is the .380ACP bad? No. Is it as good as a 9mm, a .40S&W, a .357 Sig, or a .45ACP? No. Is it better than a hammer? Yes it is. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to use it in the eyes of an assailant, it can be a very effective and useful caliber.

Very few people want to get shot. That is definitely in our favor; those of us who carry on a regular basis. While something like a Ruger LCP, a Kel-Tec P3AT, or a Taurus 738 TCP may appear very small, or even non-existent, to an attacker, what comes out of the end of it can rearrange his day quite a bit.

So yes, you are much better served by carrying a more serious and powerful caliber as your primary carry sidearm. But also a yes for the fact that the .380 can do a commendable job of saving your behind should you ever have to call upon it.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Is the .380ACP bad? No. Is it as good as a 9mm, a .40S&W, a .357 Sig, or a .45ACP? No. Is it better than a hammer? Yes it is. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to use it in the eyes of an assailant, it can be a very effective and useful caliber.
> 
> Very few people want to get shot. That is definitely in our favor; those of us who carry on a regular basis. While something like a Ruger LCP, a Kel-Tec P3AT, or a Taurus 738 TCP may appear very small, or even non-existent, to an attacker, what comes out of the end of it can rearrange his day quite a bit.
> 
> So yes, you are much better served by carrying a more serious and powerful caliber as your primary carry sidearm. But also a yes for the fact that the .380 can do a commendable job of saving your behind should you ever have to call upon it.


Agreed!


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Is the .380 bad? No

Does it make sense in anything larger than a KelTec or Ruger LCP? Not to me, because 9x19 is available in guns slightly larger, and it is much better...in my opinion.

Ammo? Make mine FMJ for penetration, and I'll try to compensate for the smaller wound channel by placing multiple shots close together.


----------



## CentexShooter (Dec 30, 2007)

I carry an LCP at work in warm weather for purposes of concealment. I feel only marginally under-gunned. In cooler weather with more clothing, I just feel more comfortable with the Nano or G36. But to answer the original question, no, .380 ain't bad. YMMV.


----------



## Ford Truck (Jan 7, 2008)

The .380 is "bad" enough I don't want to be shot with one. Many years ago, I had a Llama .380. I didn't feel naked when I was packing it.


----------



## wildshotII (Jun 17, 2014)

380 is excellent if used for it's intended purpose. A VERY CLOSE RANGE DEFENSIVE HANDGUN. With modern factory ammo it will get the job done, so you can get the hell out of Dodge . That's the important thing. The new pocket pistols are light ,small ,and easy to carry. Something you can stick in your pocket ,rather than go out NAKED. As was stated above , no one wants to get shot ,and just the presentation of a pistol can many times end a bad situation. That's why I purchased one, and will carry it loaded with Federal Hydra Shocks , they seem to excel in the 380.


----------



## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

There is no "good" or "bad" calibers, just "good" and "bad" applications for said calibers. Would I go bear hunting with my .17 HMR? Hell no, but it works great for smaller game. Although, using my .30-06 on say a rabbit, may make dressing the critter a little easier. Lol. :numbchuck:


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Agreed. The article was mainly addressing the misconception that the .380 is not a capable round for self defense.


----------



## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

GCBHM said:


> Agreed. The article was mainly addressing the misconception that the .380 is not a capable round for self defense.


Yeah. There are better calibers out there for self defense than the .380 ACP, but ammunition manufacturers have come a long way the past couple of decades, and the .380 can most certainly kill an attacker. I would not want to stop one of those 90 grain slugs.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

I carried a .380 for many years, I carried , 9mm, and 357 mag. .38 ultra light... when I was younger I carried a Beretta .25 . for anyone who thinks a 25 is a waste of time. go down range about 10 yards and take for or five. 25's in the chest and tell me is wont hurt.. but a .25 is really ineffective as a defense weapon,, to much luck hoping for a magic bullet.. IM 70 now and carry a 1911 45 ACP .because I don't want to physically try to handle a bad guy ( @ 280 lbs amped up on drugs ) who I just pissed off with a .380.
With a 45 ACP chances are good he's going down in a hurry @ 7 to 10 feet. My 45 ACP is no bigger than my .380 and only weighs 5 oz. more @ 25 oz.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

we had a doctor at a local hospital put three .380 rounds in the chest of a bad guy and the BG was able to get off a round which grazed the doctor head. the BG shot and killed his social worker in the doctors office and gave the doctor the chance to draw his weapon and put three in the BG chest.. that would not have happen if those three rounds were 45 ACP. BTW , the BG was carrying 40 rounds of ammo,, looking to take 40 lives. the doctor saved the day even though he was licensed to carry, the hospital had a no weapons policy.. Has that BG got lose in the hospital with no one allowed to carry, he would have accomplished his mission. The BG was in critical condition last I heard.. the doctor spend a night I the hospital and they buried the female case worker.
Bill aka ET


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

EvilTwin said:


> ...I carried a Beretta .25 . for anyone who thinks a 25 is a waste of time. go down range about 10 yards and take for or five. 25's in the chest and tell me is wont hurt...


Nobody I know, including me, would even go downrange in front of a Daisy BB gun, much less a .25 ACP, or even a .22 LR.
But that isn't the point.
It isn't whether a .25 will hurt someone, but rather whether or not the gun and cartridge you're using will _stop a fight_. Right away.

I used to carry a .45. But arthritis ended that. Now I carry a .380, instead.
Will my .380 stop a fight, right away?
I dunno, but it's what I can shoot repeatedly. Ask me again after I've had to use it.

I believe that bullet placement trumps ballistics, just about every time. So I practice to be accurate, even when on "automatic pilot."
(But still, I wouldn't use a .25: too much room for error. I don't think I could make in-the-eye shots...not consistently, anyway.)


----------



## XD40inAVL (Feb 1, 2013)

NO! and because my Sig P238 is much easier to carry, without dressing to carry, I am armed more often. Just drop it in my pocket (with a pocket holster of course) and go.

Any gun is better than no gun.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> we had a doctor at a local hospital put three .380 rounds in the chest of a bad guy and the BG was able to get off a round which grazed the doctor head. the BG shot and killed his social worker in the doctors office and gave the doctor the chance to draw his weapon and put three in the BG chest.. that would not have happen if those three rounds were 45 ACP. BTW , the BG was carrying 40 rounds of ammo,, looking to take 40 lives. the doctor saved the day even though he was licensed to carry, the hospital had a no weapons policy.. Has that BG got lose in the hospital with no one allowed to carry, he would have accomplished his mission. The BG was in critical condition last I heard.. the doctor spend a night I the hospital and they buried the female case worker.
> Bill aka ET


You're assuming that would not have happened if it were not .45 ACP, but that's really not factual. There are numerous accounts where people in similar situation did not go down with a lot more than three .45 rounds in them. While I love the .45, and think it is an effective defense round, it is not the end all, knock down man stopper. There really is no such thing as "knock down" power. The ballistics difference btwn the 9mm, .40 and .45 are not that great. Placement is the difference. If you don't hit a vital organ with your .45, you're not going to have any better chance of stopping a bad guy than if you'd hit him with a .25. Sure, he may eventually bleed out, and he may bleed out sooner bc the holes are bigger, but he might not. No two scenarios are the same. There is no magic bullet.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

For most here, a lethal shot is just a horror waiting to happen.. ON May 18 1966 I encountered that horror head on.. It's not a macho thing like many people think ( mostly younger members )... my first was an 18 year old boy.. I pissed my pants and I cried for almost a whole day and night... its the one singular thing that changed my life forever.. after that things got easier.. but the face of that boy will stay with me forever.. I do know what a 45 ACP can do... there is no doubt a well placed .380 can work and even a 22 .. Just ask any Mafioso hit man. the problem is there is so much chaos and you cant rely on a well placed shot with proper weapon control, and proper breathing and a perfect sight picture. training on target requires lots of practice, that's why I do it every week.. just to keep my edge.. OH and BTW I use a laser...on my EDC.. the reason is I am Old : getting a round on target using iron sights requires you look at the sights and not the total area in front of you. It removes your peripheral vision and your ability to scan in front of you.. I can see where the red dot is sitting with both eyes open and have the ability to see if he is coming or going.. or if he has a buddy. My field of view is greatly enhanced when IM not looking at sights.. here is a photo where IM not looking at the iron sights. IM actually taking the photo from the side to show how effective a laser is putting a round on target.. you don't need a sight picture via the Meprolight iron sights... you can tell exacly where this round will go. I could shoot from the hip knowing where my weapon is pointed.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> For most here, a lethal shot is just a horror waiting to happen.. ON May 18 1966 I encountered that horror head on.. It's not a macho thing like many people think ( mostly younger members )... my first was an 18 year old boy.. I pissed my pants and I cried for almost a whole day and night... its the one singular thing that changed my life forever.. after that things got easier.. but the face of that boy will stay with me forever.. I do know what a 45 ACP can do... there is no doubt a well placed .380 can work and even a 22 .. Just ask any Mafioso hit man. *the problem is there is so much chaos and you cant rely on a well placed shot with proper weapon control*, and proper breathing and a perfect sight picture. training on target requires lots of practice, that's why I do it every week.. just to keep my edge.. OH and BTW I use a laser...on my EDC.. the reason is I am Old : getting a round on target using iron sights requires you look at the sights and not the total area in front of you. It removes your peripheral vision and your ability to scan in front of you.. I can see where the red dot is sitting with both eyes open and have the ability to see if he is coming or going.. or if he has a buddy. My field of view is greatly enhanced when IM not looking at sights.. here is a photo where IM not looking at the iron sights. IM actually taking the photo from the side to show how effective a laser is putting a round on target.. you don't need a sight picture via the Meprolight iron sights... you can tell exacly where this round will go. I could shoot from the hip knowing where my weapon is pointed.


You are correct in that most will be fortunate to get their weapon out before getting killed and soiling themselves, but you must count on a well placed shot to save your life. You cannot just simply rely on the fact that a bigger bullet is going to "put them down". Fortunately, I have never had to kill anyone, and I hope I never do! All we can do is train for the best as we expect the worst, but again, there is no magic bullet. I practice all kinds of tactics, but mainly precision shooting and point of aim shooting. I don't look at the sights, and I don't use lasers on my EDC. Why? B/c good luck getting your gun out, tripping your laser and getting around off before some thug with a knife closes the gap and has you cut from waiste to chin in less than two seconds. If we are lucky enough to even be able to face the attacker, we'll be lucky to get a shot off before they are on us, if they are intent to attack. If you're comfortable with shooting from the hip, have at it. I hope you win. I'll do the best I can to shoot. I will have more than six to eight rounds to keep me in the fight if I make it past the first two. I've seen enough video to know a .45 is not guaranteed to put'em down with just one or two or even ten shots, if not well placed. I know you have unfortuate experience, and I hope it serves you well. From one service member to another, keep'em straight!


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

In any of my comments I never said anything about a guarantee...with a 45 or any caliber... what I said " In not so Many words " was that if I'm going to take a swing at a bad guy.. I would rather swing with a Baseball bat than a tree branch... a sledge hammer instead of a tack hammer. if I'm going to throw a rock, I'm going for the biggest rock not the medium rock.
As far as turning on the laser.. if the gun is in my hand the laser is on automatically.. there is no turning on, not extra effort or energy. 
also when it come to bullet mass = energy
E=MC² 
One of the most important implications of this equation is that energy and matter are essentially interchangeable. In other words, a specific amount of mass correlates to a specific amount of energy, and because of the magnitude of the 'C' constant in the relativity equation, we know the transition from matter to energy releases an incredible amount of energy. 
Ill take my chances with a bigger rock.

Also for reasons of time, I carry in my pocket...it gives me an edge. I've been pocket carrying for 15 years of my 40 year license to carry as a civilian.
I would never consider a waist high holster to be a defensive carry . a waste high holster is a convenient way to transport a weapon.. 
I do a lot of research, i'm anal about it... I was born an engineer... the first word out of my mouth as a baby was " Why ? "
when I got out of the service. I immediately went to conceal carry. I carried every type of caliber and weapon type. and did so with a variety of waist high holsters or shoulder holsters. they all were a means to carry a weapon.. But... on many occasion when my gut said there was a potential threat... I never went for my weapon.... reason being I did not want to scare anyone, or telegraph my ready status in a crown of innocent people or where there could be other CCW civilians not knowing my intentions. Or a plain clothed LEO. so in those time I did nothing but be aware.. Now 15 years ago.. I started to train and carry in the pocket... Now when my gut says danger, or a potential threat presents itself.. My hand goes in my pocket.. and I look just like an old guy with his hand in his pockets..in a non threatening way.. casual way.. No one knows I have my hand on the grip, and my finger on the safety, IM already 2 seconds ahead of any waste high holster carrier who might feel the same gut feeling but reluctant to telegraph a ready status.. this 2 send edge.. is the reason I carry in the pocket.. I developed my own pocket holster design. So there is no chance for the holster to come out of the pocket with the gun.. the transition from pocket to presentation is smooth, quick a 2 seconds faster than any IWB or OWB carry... This works for me.. and IM not suggesting it for others.. people make their own choice... At my gun club, I teach this carry... Ive converted hundreds of people to this style of carry. After a year many have told me they are much more confident with this awareness carry, and feel they have a distinct edge over their former carry. I've been a member of my gun club for 40 years.. we have 5000 members and 3000 active members... the difference being 2000 members are social members , they come for the lunch or breakfast at the club house restaurant, and to chat about guns and hunting and fishing.. If they shoot, its to sight in their gun for hunting season...But 3000 members are shooting skeet , trap, pistol, small bore or big bore rifle, shot gun table trap.. archery, or precision air rifle, a couple of times a month.. IM there at least once a week and some weeks 2 or three times.
The End
Bill aka ET


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Point of interest, in 40 years of civilian carry , I had to draw my weapon twice... in both cases, the quick brandishing of my weapon was a strong enough deterrent, to defuse the threat. IN both cases I had every right to use lethal force. IN both cases, my order to run away was taken. The first was a case of " you don't take a knife to a gun fight ", the second was "you don't bring two buddies and a baseball bat to a gun Fight ".


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> Point of interest, in 40 years of civilian carry , I had to draw my weapon twice... in both cases, the quick brandishing of my weapon was a strong enough deterrent, to defuse the threat. IN both cases I had every right to use lethal force. IN both cases, my order to run away was taken. The first was a case of " you don't take a knife to a gun fight ", the second was "you don't bring two buddies and a baseball bat to a gun Fight ".


So, in point of fact, a .22 would have been adequate in every situation you encountered in the last 40 years...


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Ford Truck said:


> The .380 is "bad" enough I don't want to be shot with one. Many years ago, I had a Llama .380. I didn't feel naked when I was packing it.


I carried a .380 for many years.. as far as feeling naked.. I never felt Naked carrying my Beretta .25 Jetfire.
AS far as felling confident, I fell much more confident with a 45 than I do with my .380.. that's why Im not carrying it as my EDC. both are sitting right here, I can choose either one.. both fit in my modified pocket holster.. but Ill choose the 45 everytime... there is nothing the .380 gives me that is superior in any way, so why carry it... Like I've said so many times at 70 years of age, I feel more confident with the 45. I am in no way suggesting other people do what I do... I'm just offering my experience with the caliber in question.

my .380, 357 mag, and 45 ACP note the bullet mass...


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

ET, I would be willing to bet that a fast thug with a knife would make quick work of you before you could get your pistol (the pistol you carry) out of your pocket and shoot him. I have a pocket holster for my Glock 42 .380. I worked with it and half the time I could not get that thing out of my pocket and at the ready just practicing it in my home. I can only imagine how that would work if I were confronted and under durress from an aggressor. Now I'm not saying you can't get it done. I know people can do amazing things quickly even to the point of it seeming impossible, but I no longer carry my pistol in my pocket. I usually carry appendix, but I would not recommend that with a 1911 style pistol. Before then, I carried at the 3, and before that I carried behind the back at the 6 position. Of all three, the 1 spot gives me the best access to my weapon. I work with the draw and I'm ok with it from that position. How did I come to this? By simply doing what you do. I asked why. Why do I carry here? What would I do if this or that happened. Granted, there is no way of really knowing exactly what you'd do in any given situation, but your odds of doing what you want to do increase with work. 

In response to your point of interest comment above, I think most will stop at even the motion of going for a gun. Glad it was enough just to show them. I am a firm believer that the best gun fight is the one you never have to shoot.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

SailDesign said:


> So, in point of fact, a .22 would have been adequate in every situation you encountered in the last 40 years...


If you want to use that as an argument that all you need is a 22, then by all means carry a 22. IM way too old and have been around the block too many times to think that you can put me in a box... with illogical reasoning.. If either of those two situations went to the next step, a 22 would not have been the best choice. Three 20 year old thugs with a base ball bat and my 22 looks like a toy and sounds like a cap gun would have only escalated the situation. A big gun makes a " BIG "noise and does "BIG" damage


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> If you want to use that as an argument that all you need is a 22, then by all means carry a 22. IM way too old and have been around the block too many times to think that you can put me in a box... with illogical reasoning.. If either of those two situations went to the next step, a 22 would not have been the best choice. Three 20 year old thugs with a base ball bat and my 22 looks like a toy and sounds like a cap gun would have only escalated the situation. A big gun makes a " BIG "noise and does "BIG" damage


Well, either way, as it turned out, those times the .22 would have sufficed. I agree that in most cases the .45 is superior. I would carry a .45 before I would carry a .22 although I would carry a .22 before I carried nothing. I think the .45 is a great round. So is the .40! It never has been about the round, but the theory behind it all. I believe that it really doesn't matter what you shoot as long as you're proficient with it, but the good thing about it all is that we all have a choice.


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> If you want to use that as an argument that all you need is a 22, then by all means carry a 22. IM way too old and have been around the block too many times to think that you can put me in a box... with illogical reasoning.. If either of those two situations went to the next step, a 22 would not have been the best choice. Three 20 year old thugs with a base ball bat and my 22 looks like a toy and sounds like a cap gun would have only escalated the situation. A big gun makes a " BIG "noise and does "BIG" damage


Nope. Just stating a fact. In 40 years of carrying, you've only drawn twice, and never had to fire.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I like SteveM1911A1's approach to all this. Shoot what you can handle. Shoot well. Hope you never have to.


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> I like SteveM1911A1's approach to all this. Shoot what you can handle. Shoot well. Hope you never have to.


That ^^^

Steve's not as dumb as I look.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Where is a  tongue icon when you need one.


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Where is a  tongue icon when you need one.


Hah! There IS one - just hard to find the little sod... 

Thanks.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

choices










which would be the bigger deterrent:


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

This forum is called Home defense.. I use this avatar at times,,, but on this forum a 50 X 50 pixel limit does not show enough detail but is perfect for personal defense or Home defense representation..


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> choices
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This would:










Or this:










But that's not the point...


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Very few BG's will actually look at the hole in the end of the barrel. Shoot, very few SHOOTERs will do that. If I take my Winchester 52B to the range (which has large "No Centerfire Rifles" signs) I will be told by 5 people before I've finished un-boxing it that centerfire rifles are not allowed. There is something about that 7/8" diameter barrel that says "big!", until you really look at the .22" hole bored in it.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I worked in a gun store when I was a kid. I LOVE it b/c although I got my butt worked off, I was around guns all day. All kinds of guns from single shoorters to machineguns. One day a friend walked in who was a former LEO. He and I were standing by the back door next to one of the owner's desks, and on it lay a Styer AUG. I looked at it and said "that's mean looking gun, isn't it Mr. Brooks". To which he calmly replied, "Son, they're all mean when you're looking down the barrel of one."


----------



## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

I like .45 ACP.
If people think carrying a .22 would be sufficient because the mere sight of a gun is enough why not just carve a nice one out of wood and paint it black. I would rather have the .45.


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

rustygun said:


> I like .45 ACP.
> If people think carrying a .22 would be sufficient because the mere sight of a gun is enough why not just carve a nice one out of wood and paint it black. I would rather have the .45.


No problem with that. For clarification, I don't carry - never have, never seen the need to.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rustygun said:


> I like .45 ACP.
> If people think carrying a .22 would be sufficient because the mere sight of a gun is enough why not just carve a nice one out of wood and paint it black. I would rather have the .45.


I don't think anyone here dislikes the .45. I think the point was that in the example ET provided a .22 would have sufficed. I love the .45 round, but if anyone thinks carrying a .45 makes you superior to someone who isn't carrying a .45, or even a gun at all, then you might want to do some research b/c there are plenty of cases where the guy with a knife beat the guy with a .45.


----------



## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

GCBHM said:


> I don't think anyone here dislikes the .45. I think the point was that in the example ET provided a .22 would have sufficed. I love the .45 round, but if anyone thinks carrying a .45 makes you superior to someone who isn't carrying a .45, or even a gun at all, then you might want to do some research b/c there are plenty of cases where the guy with a knife beat the guy with a .45.


Not debating caliber choice or gun vs. knife. I would not rely on the site of a gun to always work as a means of protection.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Well your initial statement was reflective of the fact that your opinion is that anyone who thinks carrying a .22 would be sufficient defense b/c the sight of a gun would work might as well carry a painted stick. I don't think anyone was actually relying on the sight of a gun to stop a BG. ET stated that the mere sight of his gun was enough to ward off the BGs, but I don't doubt he would have used it had they not stopped. The point saildesign made was that in ETs 40 years, he only had to pull his weapon twice, and in both of those instances a .22 would have worked b/c ET seems to think that it was the sight of the .45 that warded them off rather than the fact that it was a gun.


----------



## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

Good thing you are here to clear things up.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

IM not sure how this thread got out of hand,,, Not dangerously.. but assumptions can redirect the intent... just to make it clear... I never said the sight of a gun will turn someone a round... IN fact although I did not specify... both of those incidents was way before I pocket carried my 45 ACP... in the case of the three bad guy with the bat.. it was about 2 am.. I was stopped at a light with a truck in front of me.. a cement median on my left.. I was making a left turn behind a truck also making a left turn. the car, full (4 ) guys in a car pulled right next to me on my right.. there was no one in front of them...they had their rap music blaring obnoxiously loud..they had me blocked in because I could not back up because the median was blocking me, it was 15 ft wide behind me making an isolated and protected left turn lane. this was a four lane each way highway by the airport.

Anyway... when I looked over I heard one of these thugs say. " Whatca lookin at White boy " with disgust I said " Not much ".. immediately they get out of the right side of their car the driver stayed in the car. they ( three of them , one with a Bat or a pipe) came around the front of their car and toward me from the front of my car..I hear one of them say "we are going to fuc you up white boy" ON my seat and now in my hand, was my 6 " nickel plated Colt Python 357 mag red ramp. I put my car in neutral and set the parking break.. opened the door put my left foot out brought my body half way out and brought the weapon to bear ( IM left handed ) directly at the head of the guy with the bat.. they were about 8 / 10 feet away.

The guy dropped the bat and their hands went up and said hey " we cool./. we cool backing up all the time .. I told them to get out of my face or I would fux them up .. they got back in the car and drove off quickly.. it was a highly visible intimidating weapon..

The second time was in the city IN china town.. not the best neighbor hood but a place where good Chinese restaurants are everywhere.. it was just before dusk my wife and kids in front of me with me scanning the forward view.' we had just finished eating and going back to the car parked a block away on the street. a guy came from nowhere and went toward my wife and kids... he wanted money... I Had a 5 shot S&W 38 air light at that time.. nickel plated.. I drew the weapon, pointed it right at his face.. got between him and my wife and kids and told him to run away... which he did... 
These forum post can get real long real fast.. but when the details are lacking , people can assume anything..

Sorry for the long post but wanted to clarify the intent of my original post.. some how a little black 22 would not have offered the same visual "Presents" as a 6 inch Nickel plated 357 mag.. had it been a small unrecognizable weapon, those three guys might have chose another path. My whole contention is not trying to scare people away as my defense.. but to be powerful enough to follow through in an effective manner. Actually the absolute best outcome in drawing a weapon would be that the weapon itself would be the deterrent.. and not the act of lethal force. My present carry has crimson laser grips... its just another tool to get on target quickly but it adds another level of deterrent. in that the BG can see the laser, you could actually blind them with it... but also he knows that I've painted a target on him that would be successful and it puts, in his face, that this guy is about to shoot me. If the laser turns him around , then I don't have to follow through and I can avoid all the grief..

Someone said a knife is faster than a gun at times.. No one is going to pull a knife on me and single me out of a crowd of people just to rob me... If a guy has a knife and there is no one around , he's not going to get close enough to mug me... when he 20 feet away and coming at me with a knife he's already on my radar.. I've already got my pocket carry in my hand and my finger on the safety... if the guy keeps coming at me, at 15 feet my gun is drawn.. unless he has a 15 ft knife he in trouble.. anyone coming at me with a knife from 15 feet away, will get stop waning, and if he doesn't comply immediately.. he will be dead, at 12 feet and still coming a couple of 9mm may not do it. a couple of 45 may not do it.. but he will be in much worse shape with a few hits from the same distance from a 45 than a .380 or 9mm.
this was the point to my post... 

Will a 45 always be successful ? No ! there are no absolutes.. but as I said earlier, if IM going to pick up a rock to defend myself, its going to be a big rock.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I hope you're right in the scenario of the guy approaching you with a knife. I've seen a lot of accounts where the guy with the gun lost.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Knife or no knife, if someone approaches me he/she will be confronted by an alert "senior citizen" who always keeps his eyes on the person's hands and his head on a swivel.
Further, I walk (longish distances) with a cane, and I know how to use it to parry attacks.

Normally, my obviously-wide-awake alertness and my determined stare keeps people at a distance.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I would think so, Steve. I'm just thinking of how fast a guy can close the gap verses how fast one can pull a compact 1911 out of their pocket before they get cut, assuming the gun carrier knows the attacker is there.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Somehow, we got off the topic and on to a knife vs. a Gun..

Just some more input.. for the original poster. the .380 is hardly an ineffective caliber, people have been killed with a sling shot ask " David" he carried the .380 of biblical mythology times. it can get the job done. 

I carried a .380 for years.. what a carry weapon gives you, is the sense of having a chance in a bad situation. I like the idea of having a chance when I walk out the door. A carry weapon no matter a .22 or a .50 cal. offers the confidence in your posture.,.. where that confidence posture can remove you from the tag of looking like a victim. BG's look for the weak and not the strong and confident..


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Actually, I'm the original poster. This thread is a bit old, and sometimes the discussions seem to go down a winding road, which is fine with me as long as it remains civil. I also believe I made the first comment about a knife as related to your carrying your gun in your pocket. That may work extremely well for you, I don't know, but it doesn't for me. The Glock 42 is about half the size as your 1911, and I know I had a difficult time getting it out of my pocket at times. Other times I came out smooth as silk, but I decided I was better off with an IWB holster rig. I agree with your premise that the BGs look for victims. Like you, I'm always alert with my head and eyes on a swivel. Also, I do agree knowing you have a weapon does give you a sense of confidence that can be seen from a potential BG, and most of the time that will keep you from becoming their prey. I'll bet you David carried a .50 rock!


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Actually, I'm the original poster. This thread is a bit old, and sometimes the discussions seem to go down a winding road, which is fine with me as long as it remains civil. I also believe I made the first comment about a knife as related to your carrying your gun in your pocket. That may work extremely well for you, I don't know, but it doesn't for me. The Glock 42 is about half the size as your 1911, and I know I had a difficult time getting it out of my pocket at times. Other times I came out smooth as silk, but I decided I was better off with an IWB holster rig. I agree with your premise that the BGs look for victims. Like you, I'm always alert with my head and eyes on a swivel. Also, I do agree knowing you have a weapon does give you a sense of confidence that can be seen from a potential BG, and most of the time that will keep you from becoming their prey. I'll bet you David carried a .50 rock!


 I am trying to add discussion and not a take over to your thread... AS an engineer I like the ability to be ready without telegraphing te ready position. The flaw in the pocket carry for thousands of people is the holster,, you never want to just throw a small gun in your pocket. your pocket carry should be in a pocket holster that covers the trigger. the problem with every pocket holster is the inadvertent removal of the weapon and the holster comes with it......this creates a poor posture and fumble mentality when you only have a second to react... I asked why this happened and spent time researching an failure modes effect analysis... F.M.E.A. we use FMEA's to design components for a Corvette.. anyway.. making it short and sweet if that is possible...

What would keep the holster in the pocket when drawing the weapon from the holster,,, the answer is.. increase the coefficient of friction on the outside and decreese the coefficient of friction on the inside.. after much experimentation. I came up with the solution. If I feel a threat or a potential threat I can put my hand in my pocket with no one knowing what IM doing.. I have my hand around the grip. finger on the safety.. when the gut feeling or visual concern becomes a real and present threat. I can draw my weapon in less than 1 second.

OK back to the draw...
an Uncle Mikes Pocket holster # 3 it fits my 45 ACP and my .380 which ios where I developed this holster design.. 
to increase the friction, the sticky holster does not work the remora Nemisis does not work, and hock style hoster does not work 100 % of the time.
I took a #3 holster and add friction to both sides of the widest part of the holster where the slide fits in the holster in the longest part of the holster.. I take the hook and eye side of a Velcro strip and add it to both sides of the holster two 3 inch strips.. I also make sure the hook and eyes are pointed in such a way that there is resistance coming out of the pocket and not into the pocket.. the hooks will ad enough friction by grabbing the pocket lining. Next I made a template of the holster,,, I took a piece of heavy duty waxed paper... folded it over and traced the template.. then cut out the waxed paper to fit inside the holster.. the waxed paper keeps any moisture that may be on the holster from touching the weapon.. you open the waxed paer and add the gun.. the waxed paper will immediately mold to the gun....

Now the holster stays in the pocket and the gun has no resistance and comes right out... it was a revelation when I did these two things.. I've drawn both weapons in practice at least 1500 times each and I have never had a draw where the holster came out with the gun.. the liner is easily replaceable.. it keeps gun oils from the inside of your holster and keep moisture from your holster off the gun.. its a win win. and twice as fast to draw than any waste high holster. And you have the added advantage of hands on your weapon without anyone knowing it. If my gut or the hairs on my neck are telling me there is a possible danger, my hand is in my pocket.. I never have to say should I go for my gun in a waist high holster even thought there is no actual threat... but that edge of going for it before an actual threat is the edge you may need to save your life. plus there is less worry in a potential threat when you already on you gun, and no one knows and you don't have to wrry about anyones reaction, because they don't know what you are doing.. try that with a waste high holster and every person around with a CCW, plain clothes LEO will have you on their radar wondering what your intention is.
Bill aka ET


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Long threads, where there is a lot of content and different opinions allow people to see thing from a different points of view... this thread has been very civil.. some content about my way is better than yours, but hardly confrontational... there are people that are viewing this thread and have a short amount of time in concealed carry... they are trying to feel their way around for the best advantage... Those of us with a lot of experience can offer that experience here.. it doesn't mean that people will have to use it... it just gives them some data to digest.. and if it works for them that's great and if it doesn't , no one is hurt. This was never a post about mine is bigger than yours.. its was about my personal confidence in my carry and why I choose to do what I do.. it really doesn't matter to me if my experience is of no interest to some..


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> ...I'm just thinking of how fast a guy can close the gap verses how fast one can pull a compact 1911 out of their pocket before they get cut, assuming the gun carrier knows the attacker is there.


I pocket-carried (a .45) for years and years and years.
With practice, and using a really good holster, the presentation from a front pocket is at least as quick as that from any other position.

Thus, the only defensive considerations beyond that become your awareness level and your personal reaction time.


----------



## XD40inAVL (Feb 1, 2013)

EvilTwin said:


> we had a doctor at a local hospital put three .380 rounds in the chest of a bad guy and the BG was able to get off a round which grazed the doctor head. the BG shot and killed his social worker in the doctors office and gave the doctor the chance to draw his weapon and put three in the BG chest.. that would not have happen if those three rounds were 45 ACP. BTW , the BG was carrying 40 rounds of ammo,, looking to take 40 lives. the doctor saved the day even though he was licensed to carry, the hospital had a no weapons policy.. Has that BG got lose in the hospital with no one allowed to carry, he would have accomplished his mission. The BG was in critical condition last I heard.. the doctor spend a night I the hospital and they buried the female case worker.
> Bill aka ET


Confirms my point, any gun is better than no gun.

I pocket carry my P238 when I am not willing to dress to carry my bigger and heavier guns. Having a smaller gun because I like my comfort, especially in hot weather.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

XD40inAVL said:


> Confirms my point, any gun is better than no gun.
> 
> I pocket carry my P238 when I am not willing to dress to carry my bigger and heavier guns. Having a smaller gun because I like my comfort, especially in hot weather.


I don't think you could find one sane person that would argue the point that any gun is better than no gun..

AS far as a comfortable carry...
Here's my summer/winter carry short pants in the summer long pants in the winter..
1911 45ACP in my Left pocket... I've been licensed to carry since returning to civilian life in 1977. for the last 15 years Ive been carrying in my pocket using a Mike's modified pocket holster. At my Age, I feel more comfortable with a big caliber gun. At 70 I am not a slave to fashion and dress around my carry and not carry around my dress.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Is that a pistol that's bulging out your pocket, or are you just glad to see me? -with apologies to Mae West


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

EvilTwin said:


> Long threads, where there is a lot of content and different opinions allow people to see thing from a different points of view... this thread has been very civil.. some content about my way is better than yours, but hardly confrontational... there are people that are viewing this thread and have a short amount of time in concealed carry... they are trying to feel their way around for the best advantage... Those of us with a lot of experience can offer that experience here.. it doesn't mean that people will have to use it... it just gives them some data to digest.. and if it works for them that's great and if it doesn't , no one is hurt. This was never a post about mine is bigger than yours.. its was about my personal confidence in my carry and why I choose to do what I do.. it really doesn't matter to me if my experience is of no interest to some..


Like I said, I don't mind the winding roads so long as the conversation is civil. A lot of times things on threads like this are taken the wrong way b/c you don't have the luxury of body language, but I post things like this so that others can contribute for people to have the opportunity to digest as you have said.

I appreciate your input and insight, which is why I said on another post you're welcome to comment and discuss. Don't take it as a personal attack or that I, at least, think you're trying to cause a riot when I offer an opposing point of view. Put your points of view out there so that I and others can see it, but tell us why you do what you do so we have the whole picture. Now that you have taken the time to elaborate on all the time and diligence you have put into this pocket carry method, it provides a completely different picture than just simply saying "I pocket carry a 1911 compact" and leave it for us to assume you've done the experimenting you just laid out. Now I've learned something. Now I want to hear more about what you have to say. Now you've earned credibility with me b/c you took the time to teach me something. That's what I am here for.

I wish I could see your holster and design as you're talking about it so that I could have a visual with your instruction. That would be invaluable. Thanks for your time and detailed tutorial. THAT is what this forum is for. That's what I meant by saying we have to validate our opinions. Now you look like a wise but EEEEEviiiiil master mind instead of just another old codger who thinks he knows it all, and perception is reality whether it is true or not.


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> <snip>
> Don't take it as a personal attack or that I, at least, think you're trying to cause a riot when I offer an opposing point of view.
> <much more snip>


Unless you're a lib'rul - in which case you're apparently fair game. 

On the snipped parts - yup! Insights appreciated, even encouraged because we are all different, and therefore have something different to teach.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Lib'ruls aren't to be reasoned with. They're to be defeated! ;-)


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Lib'ruls aren't to be reasoned with. They're to be defeated! ;-)


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Sorry! It just fit so perfectly there. Got that from Rush Limbaugh many years ago. Used to be a NEOCON b/c it was popular. I've since learned and educated myself. ;-)


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Sorry! It just fit so perfectly there. Got that from Rush Limbaugh many years ago. Used to be a NEOCON b/c it was popular. I've since learned and educated myself. ;-)


Pah! No need to apologize.


----------



## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

SailDesign said:


> Pah! No need to apologize.


Actually, Yes, there is... For EVER being a NEOCON. Geez!


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SailDesign said:


> Actually, Yes, there is... For EVER being a NEOCON. Geez!


It's just what good sheeple do! You know the type. They come in all forms...neocons...ultralibs...you know...scum.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

I've been doing the forum stuff for a long time ( 25 years ).. Over in my automotive forum as their GM factory engineering guru.. I sometimes get as many as 50 PM in a day about their Corvette.. Im very open to discussion here, and willing to share... I do have a lot of knowledge in a lot of areas, and it come off sometimes as being a " Know it all aHole " .... so I have to tread lightly.. with long post and details, my personality becomes more evident.. I've had a remarkable life.. a great career, and enjoy sharing my experience.

Making a forum " Fun " with specific entitlements ( gun talk ) combined with some good hearted humor and even some irreverence in the sake of a laugh can make a good forum a great forum.. People want to come for the total experience, getting the facts, getting a few laughs, building some friendships, and enjoying this hobby and life style. When people get comfortable in a forum, they open up, feel comfortable sharing their experiences.. Lots of newbies come to a forum like this, and are afraid to say anything in fear that their question or comment might be considered stupid.. so they lurk and just listen... I don't know how many time, ( Hundreds ) where a newbie will post his first question with the caveat " I know this is a stupid question. "..WE all know there are no stupid questions.. 
AS you can see my motor mouth is in high gear this afternoon..

Some people are not going to like my long winded approach to commenting in this forum... I figure the more detail the better, as it was pointed out previously... IM really a former tough guy who has been a pussy cat for many years... IM always open for a Private message, and Ill be the first to tell someone if I don't know the answer. 

Finally I get a good feeling about this forum...just the right mix of people and interests.. for me I have plenty of time on my hands.. but for others they may only come here for a few minutes a day , but its the content that will help get them through their day.. be it a piece of good information , or a belly laugh.. so I encourage everyone to participate.. I see newbies come to this forum and introduce themself.. I see sometimes 100 or 150 view of that introduction but only 10 or so actual replies... if people view a newbie thread, and are interested in who the newbie is.. why don they all just say Hi.. it would encourage the newbie to stick around because its a friendly forum.

The End
Bill aka ET


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Agreed.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Agreed.


IM not sure of your name GCBHM, but you asked about my pocket carry... Ive already hijacked this thread a few times.. but my chat gene, takes over and I yak away.

IM not sure where to post my pocket carry hardware modification, and the principles of this carry that I teach at my gun club...
I have posted some specifics in other post Ive made. with so many sub forum on this website, its hard to find the appropriate place..

I just posted a New thread about participation , and I'm not sure where I should have posted it.. to get the most exposure and participation. It about my opinion on making the forum more active and encouraging new members..
Bill aka ET

BTW I post my real first name Bill and my nick name ET so people might feel more comfortable. calling me Bill or ET... first names or nick names help make people feel this is a friendly guy.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Just call me GC. As you've seen, there are multiple forums here, but most recent posts pop up on the Active Topics tab. That's where I usually go first to see what the latest and greatest is. Anything you post will show up there. Depending on how active the site is, your post may remain toward the top or it may get buried. I've posted a few things that have taken off, like this particular thread has, while others have gone relatively unnoticed. I guess all we can do is post and hope that others take an interest. 

I have come to realize that once your name is out there, and folks have determined you're a pretty good poster (meaning you don't post junk just to post or that you're not a flamer) they tend to look to see what you've had to say. I post a lot of informational things that don't really solicite a reply, but sometimes folks respond. This is a good forum. I like it b/c it has some really good folks that have good things to share with good reasoning behind it. And it isn't stuck on one make/model of gun like some forums are. Those tend to be the more clickish forums you mentioned in my experience. Not to mention, you can't get an objective opinion on anything. 

You'll feel your way around. It's pretty easy as you've seen. Just keep posting and you'll start to get in the mix. Just takes a little time.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

If IM going to take the time to post in a forum, I would like it to be fun and informative, whether I'm a giver or a taker... because I'm so sick, I spend a lot of time at the keyboard, but I do get out and can drive and shoot once a week at least. I maintain my carry edge at the range weekly. 
As I said, IM engaged here.. Im heavy on my automotive forum, I'm in two photographic forums and am involved in a high end watch forum. Keeping my mind active helps...


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I've enjoyed the conversations with you, for what that's worth, ET. I certainly respect your service, from one vet to another, and appreciate your experience. So please, throw it out there. Let's hash it out. I'll hear what you have to say.


----------



## EvilTwin (Sep 4, 2014)

Thank You GC, and again my apologies to the OP.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Don't mention it. No worries.


----------



## HiVel (Sep 5, 2014)

I tote a Ruger 380 LCP with a CTC laser and a Kel Tec side clip on it. /works great . Then sometimes I take a larger gun depending on the trip and the heat of the day. I have several 380 pistols and am comfortable with all. They work ! 
Prefer my Glock 10mm actually.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I shot the 20 for the first time a few weeks ago and was really surprised at how smooth and easy the 10mm was. I've heard it can be a bear in other frames. 

I really like the .380. I carry a 9mm primarily, but this little G42 is perfect for the occasion when a bigger gun just won't do.


----------



## JWG (Sep 8, 2014)

My work takes me outside on construction sites daily. Most of which are not in the most desirable areas. I carry a P238 because it fits my needs on a daily basis. Small enough to be carried all of the time. I have carried other calibers but my .380 carries the most comfortable, therefor I always have it on me. Lots of good info going around. Thanks for all the input.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thanks for your input! Glad you appreciate the thread.


----------

