# At Close Range, 10 Yards and In, Would You....?



## 870ShellShucker (Oct 12, 2011)

Would you stop to focus on the sights and aim precisely, or simply get a hit on COM as quickly as possible, even if that hit was not precisely aimed?

Inside 10 Yards, I can get COM hits without aiming with the sites. It may not be a tight grouping, but they're on COM. Inside 10 Yards, I'm thinking that I need to stop the threat as quickly as possible. Just Point and Shoot, at least the first shot. Focus on the target, while bringing the weapon into the sight picture, and as soon as the front sight "appears" to center COM, give the trigger a squeeze.

I guess this thinking goes back to the idea of landing the first blow in a fight.


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I don't know.


----------



## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

10 yds + aim...closer in point and shoot...JJ


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

10 yards is usually right around the tipping point between point shooting and sighted fire so it would depend on the exact situation plaiyng out. Probably start point shooting for the first couple and then pick up sights for any needed follow ups.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I have always practiced, and still do practice, bringing the sights up to eye level and automatically using the sight-picture that results.
At 10 yards, my pistol would be brought to eye level.
In most cases, that would also be true at seven yards, and probably at five as well.

With sufficient continuing practice, automatically using the sights requires no more time than does point-shooting or "slide-shooting."

Point- or slide-_missing_, however, does take up a lot more time.


----------



## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

You're using the flash sight picture,which is a very viable system.Most people can pull this off at 3yds,10yds is is good instinct-depending.If you are talking a doubletap in an IPSC A zone,excellent!

There are 2 trains of thought on this.If you snake-eye it you have a bigger hole for bloodloss,if you are still in the zone and pull them a few inches off you have 2 separate chances for a vital hit if one just doesn't cut it.My outlook is I'll take a lung and low miss over 2 side by side clips.

If you really want to learn this type of shooting to a level you don't think possible,look up Brownie in Texas that runs Threat Focused, threatfocused.com if I recall.He can teach you this with a rifle at serious range,HTH,and don't piss him off to pull a knife-he carries custom Bowies concealed if you want to play,otherwise he'll spank you with a neck whip or just bitchslap you to the ground writhing in pain.For an old man that's been around he knows some serious stuff that's kept him alive a long time.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

rex said:


> ...[L]ook up Brownie in Texas that runs Threat Focused...[H]e'll spank you with a neck whip or just bitchslap you to the ground writhing in pain...


Nope. Not my kind of teacher at all.

I learned quite well from a former Marine my own age, who knew how to alter his teaching approach to suit each particular student.


----------



## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Brownie is quite versed from hand to hand to firearms.If you want HTH he has classes at different levels for that,knives and firearms the same.His pistol skills are quite high from timer times I've heard and reviews of his classes.He's also one of the few I've heard Quick Kill from,which is nothing but point/index shooting perfected.He can dance golf or tennis balls at over 50yds with a 22 rifle using the technique.

I may have been wrong where he lives,he may be in Arizona and used to live in Texas.I wouldn't hesitate to take one of his classes if I could but it usually works out I can't when he comes to FL.


----------



## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I have always practiced, and still do practice, bringing the sights up to eye level and automatically using the sight-picture that results.
> At 10 yards, my pistol would be brought to eye level.
> In most cases, that would also be true at seven yards, and probably at five as well.
> 
> ...


This.

My experience with point-shooting skills is that they are more situation-dependent than the instructors and users would have you believe. If you aren't squared-up and facing the target on flat, level ground, and NOT MOVING, then getting hits is not very reliable. After someone has demonstrated being able to hit a golf-ball at 15 yards point-shooting, I ask them to turn 45-60 degrees to one side, leave their feet planted, and try again. Or to put one foot up on a wooden box, to simulate stopping on a stairway. Or stand on a heavy sheet of plywood with a spacer under one side edge, to make it a gentle side-slope. Under any of these conditions, the first attempt is usually poor, and you don't get to practice until you get it right in the real world. You have to get it right the first time.

Dangit. Now I'm gonna have a friggin' Billy Joel song stuck in my head for the next couple of days...
("I've gotta get it right the first time 
That's the main thing 
I can't afford to let it pass 
You get it right the next time that's not the same thing...")


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

It's going to depend upon two primary factors: the urgency or the moment (do you have to get shots off RIGHT NOW?) and/or the target presented. As others have stated, frequent practice is key to delivering effective hits to your target and will greatly increase your ability as you continue your training. Nothing is guaranteed but training and practice are your best friend.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> It's going to depend upon two primary factors: the urgency or the moment (do you have to get shots off RIGHT NOW?) and/or the target presented...


Remember that, in the urgency of the moment, you'll still need some sort of sight picture in order to make a fight-stopping hit (or two).
If your opponent is close enough, slide-shooting _may_ be enough of a sight picture.
But it's still a sight picture.

Thought about another way: Do you really have enough time to miss? No? Well, OK, then you need your sights.

...And picking up from where *DJ Niner* left off:
I have learned, and still practice, to draw while making a turn (to the left or the right), _acquire the sights_, and make the shot, all within a "normal shot" time frame. I do shallowly-oblique, right-angled, sharply-oblique, and 180° turns in both directions. In several of these movements, the first shot is fired while I'm off-balance, and a follow-up shot goes off as soon as I've reacquired stability in the new position. (However, I admit to getting slow and creaky nowadays.)
I find that I can also move at a reasonably quick clip across a three- or four-target front, firing as I go, and deliver one shot to each target, and then another shot to each target, before coming to rest. All of this involves the sights, for each and every shot.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *Remember that, in the urgency of the moment, you'll still need some sort of sight picture in order to make a fight-stopping hit (or two).*
> If your opponent is close enough, slide-shooting _may_ be enough of a sight picture.
> But it's still a sight picture.
> 
> ...


This is why I mentioned urgency. One could be faced with a moment of such urgency that trying to acquire a sight picture is not in the cards. But I would venture to state that in those cases, more often than not one's assailant is not likely to be the requisite 7 yards distant but more likely to be pretty close. Using one's sights is always the best way to go when one has that option. But when the shot has to be made as quick as humanly possible, you do what you can and must. If my assailant was right in front of me, six feet away and it was now or never, I'm pulling and pulling if I see the opportunity avail itself.

(pulling and pulling = pulling my sidearm and pulling the trigger)


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Don't "pull" that trigger.
_Press_.

Yeah. OK.
At six feet, I think that I might actually move toward the target, and fire just before making contact.
And, yes, in that case I would not be using the sights.
Nor would I be using two hands.

But it'd still be a trigger _press_. :yawinkle:


----------



## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

This could be a long thread,but parameters need set really because the OP of 30' not only is a static situation,but is a flash sight picture,or high elbow,whatever shot.That was the question but what at shorter range as brought up?At 21' you better be backing up.A speedrock,or before/at a low elbow,will get you a hit in a 6" circle COM,but if they don't drop they are on you bleeding or not.If you never tried it,do so training either on the timer seperately or just playing tag 21' apart.Now throw in .4 or .5 sec penalty for reaction since you know this is happening.

Speedrocks are a must for a natural instict fit because you never see the gun,at all.I live by the 1911 but a 4" Smith L frame is my buddy there.1/2 elbow,or index, is easier because you see the muzle and some barrel to learn an index off.3/4 elbow,or flash sighting,is very usable in SD as long as it's practiced and ingrained like breathing.Sights are for precision shots,a natural ingrained sightover of the slide or barrel will give you surprisingly good hits consistantly.When that's accomplished,run back from setting the targets,turn and do it.Then double the run..You don't need a timer because you will know what's good and not,but they really are the only difinitive proof of progress.


----------



## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

Point, Click, Bang.

What sights?

AFS


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Are you absolutely certain that it isn't "Point, Click, Bang...Miss"?

Ten yards is further than most people think, when shooting to make effective, fight-stopping hits.
I don't believe that merely pointing is enough.


----------



## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Are you absolutely certain that it isn't "Point, Click, Bang...Miss"?
> 
> Ten yards is further than most people think, when shooting to make effective, fight-stopping hits.
> I don't believe that merely pointing is enough.


Practice.

AFS


----------



## 870ShellShucker (Oct 12, 2011)

The longest line of sight inside my home (across 3 rooms) is 19 yards. Most areas have no more than 5 to 10 Yards of line of sight. So, inside my home, my sights may or may not see use. Outside, 10 Yards and out I believe I'll use the sights. Any closer than that, I'd just point and shoot.


----------



## dman (May 14, 2012)

This is something I still do on occation . I've got a CO2 pistol pellet gun that I practice all the time , point shoot , no aim just point and shoot. It's amazing how fast you pick this up and get good at it , center mass every time.It's fun and cheap and same as any other gun. You'll be amazed how fast you pick this up. Give a try !


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I practice frequently (twice a month and more sometimes), and I like to challenge myself with a variety of targets at differing distances. Sometimes momentary presentation (target presents and then turns 90 degrees), sometimes from a table, sometimes from a draw, and sometimes from a compressed ready position (low and high). I always use my sights when doing this because I want to instill muscle memory and hand and eye coordination when delivering rounds to target.

In the event an extreme encounter takes place, I am a firm believer that one never really knows how they are going react until the situation is in their face LIKE RIGHT NOW. But I also believe that frequent practice can do no harm and can only help you hone your skills so that IF that time ever comes, you will stand a better chance of escape with your life.

The worse thing someone can do is to buy a gun, load it up, and then go about their business while never putting in any range time. I consider this to be at best, a fool's folly.


----------



## SteveC (Apr 27, 2012)

_The worse thing someone can do is to buy a gun, load it up, and then go about their business while never putting in any range time. I consider this to be at best, a fool's folly. _

Got that right. I do the same kind of "challenge" drills and I'm continually amazed by how many people do nothing more than stand 7 yards from a target and calmly crank out a few rounds. They are kidding themselves if they think this is preparing for defending themselves. Have to wonder how many of them would even get the gun out of the holster.


----------



## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> I practice frequently (twice a month and more sometimes), and I like to challenge myself with a variety of targets at differing distances. Sometimes momentary presentation (target presents and then turns 90 degrees), sometimes from a table, sometimes from a draw, and sometimes from a compressed ready position (low and high). I always use my sights when doing this because I want to instill muscle memory and hand and eye coordination when delivering rounds to target.
> 
> In the event an extreme encounter takes place, I am a firm believer that one never really knows how they are going react until the situation is in their face LIKE RIGHT NOW. But I also believe that frequent practice can do no harm and can only help you hone your skills so that IF that time ever comes, you will stand a better chance of escape with your life.
> 
> The worse thing someone can do is to buy a gun, load it up, and then go about their business while never putting in any range time. I consider this to be at best, a fool's folly.


You are dead nuts on there.The other techniques are valuable though without ruining anything.Sightover shooting is just easy index shooting and can be surprisingly accurate.

Action shooting I discovered that on the close non-obstucted targets out around 5yds or so I never saw the sights.The gun was automatically going to target,but I was staying focussed on where I want the shot and the gun stopped just under line of sight.I don't know why I started doing it but it worked.When you're practicing presentations,when your sights are lined up just pick your head up to look just over the sights.Look at the original POA and reference the pistol to it,looks like you are low but aren't.Every time you see that "sight" picture,your sights are aligned to the spot you are looking.

Up close is easy but yardage obviously increases the dificulty.The Quick Kill skills are what give you the info on the longer stuff that would take you longer to learn on your own.


----------



## lamrith (Apr 23, 2012)

SteveC said:


> _The worse thing someone can do is to buy a gun, load it up, and then go about their business while never putting in any range time. I consider this to be at best, a fool's folly. _
> 
> Got that right. I do the same kind of "challenge" drills and I'm continually amazed by how many people do nothing more than stand 7 yards from a target and calmly crank out a few rounds. They are kidding themselves if they think this is preparing for defending themselves. Have to wonder how many of them would even get the gun out of the holster.


Yeah not practicing makes having the weapon pretty much useless, if not dangerous. I grew up around firearms, but my 1st time back at the range in a while I was nervous. Only my past experience kept me from doing some seriously dumb moves. Now I have a number of visits done and that old training has kicked back in, plus I am more familiar and comfortable with the weapon.

I just purchased my 1st person handgun and picked it up Tues (M&P9fs). Yesterday I was able to get to the range and practice with it. I am nowhere close to ready fo rthe advancted drills, but once I feel more comfortable I will start upping the "stress" level and vary the presentation.

One challenge I know I will have is that my range does not like people constantly drawing from thier holster, be it OC or CC. that means practicing at home with an empty weapon will be my only way to practice.


----------



## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Empty the friggen magazine.............


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SteveC said:


> _The worse thing someone can do is to buy a gun, load it up, and then go about their business while never putting in any range time. I consider this to be at best, a fool's folly. _
> 
> Got that right. I do the same kind of "challenge" drills and I'm continually amazed by how many people do nothing more than stand 7 yards from a target and calmly crank out a few rounds. They are kidding themselves if they think this is preparing for defending themselves. Have to wonder how many of them would even get the gun out of the holster.


You're right there.

I forgot to mention that I also use different targets and almost never use standard bullseye or B27 silhouette targets. I use index cards (vertical and horizontal), 9" paper plates, and 8 1/2" x 11" copy paper with different printed shapes and such. I shoot from 9 feet to 75 feet with most at or under 21 feet. I do aimed "taps" where I'll fire two rounds into a paper plate and one into an index card above the plate. In other words, I vary my targets, distances, scenarios, and firing method (I mentioned everything from ready to high compressed ready to low ready to gun on table to holstered gun). I will have the target non-presented and then timed to present for a few seconds and then turn 90 degrees back to non-present. I rarely see other people doing drills like this at a range.


----------

