# Federal EFMJ



## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm been curious about Federal's EFMJ (Expanding FMJ) rounds.

I've been doing some research on the Internet but haven't really seen scientific (ie. clothed gelatin wound simulations) comparisons of their performance against my standard SD handgun loads (hydrashok, gold dots). Can anyone point me the right way? Not sure if they pass the ban on hollow points in some states as well.

What I've been able to find out thus far:

Designed by Tom Burczynski, father of Hydra-Shok, EFMJ combines a scored full metal nose over an internal rubber tip that collapses on impact. It never fills with barrier material and assures expansion on every shot. A lead core at the base maintains weight retention.

Federal's EFMJ load for 9mm luger comes in at 105gr.

I've seen anecdotal quotes claiming 9mm EFMJs yield greater wound channel volume than .45FMJ but haven't been able to find sources to prove or disprove these statements.


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## Anarius (Mar 8, 2008)

Not legal for military use. Geneva conventions prohibit any 'expanding' ammo, not just soft-nose. Its much better to shoot them with solid rounds and left them bleed out slowly and die rather than blow big holes in them and let them die quickly. Ahhh....mercy.

As for ballistic tests, I couldn't find any either. That ammo is pretty new so it probably isn't out yet, but you could try contacting a company rep (I'm sure they've done their own tests) he might not show you the gel but he will probably be eager to explain the results.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I found a potentially informative post here: http://9x19mm.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274&sid=f6a282a4490cf2fcb452ebc89971a4a4. Unfortunately, the poster does not cite a reference for his numbers. They do seem like reasonable numbers, though.

*************

5 round avgs, FBI test protocol

P45CSP1 200 gr Glock 21 12/14/00

bare gel 978 12.95/.653
cloth 984 13.7/.651
wboard 983 12.15/.676
pwood 982 12.65/.654
steel 992 12.2/.59 (jacket/core sep/77% ret wt)
glass 1002 11.7/.576 (67%)

P45CSP2 165 gr SIG P220 3/6/01

bare gel 1068 9.1/.74
cloth 1032 9.9/.722
wboard 1054 8.9/.726
pwood 1043 9.55/.743
steel 1047 8.15/.58 (71%)
glass 1047 7.85/.578 (61%)

P9CSP1 124 gr SIG P228 1063 fps 1/00

bare gel 12.85/.519
cloth 12.55/.519
wboard 11.1/.525
pwood 13.2/.51
steel 9.5/.466 (65%)
glass 8.5/.511 (60%)

Beretta 92

bare 11.35/.567
cloth 12.1/.552
wboard 10/.563
pwood 10.8/.561
steel 9.33/.492 (65%)
glass 7.9/.526 (55%)

P9CSP1 124 gr HK MP5 1225 fps 1/00

bare gel 11.3/.600
cloth 10.9/.596
wboard 9/.592
pwood 10.3/.596
steel 11.1/.491 (68%)
glass 8.6/.512 (57%)

P40CSP1

bare 12.45/.617
cloth 13.3/.605
wboard 12.8/.610
pwood 15.95/.579
steel 11.65/.513 (72%)
glass 11.75/.530 (67%)

Compare to:

147 HS 13/.62 bare, 15/.57 cloth
165 HS 13.5/.63, 14.5/.60
230 HS 13.7/.70, 16.4/.66

The 124 +P 9mm EFMJ does 1065 from a G19. Into a deer at 15 ft did 14/.56 (angled down through neck into chest)

Has been tweaked a bit since the above tests, but no major change in performance. Some lots have failed to expand at all. Had some 165/40 that did not expand at all, even when we pulled them and reloaded them to over 1100 fps. Like all other ammo, can vary from lot to lot over time.

As you might expect, the lighter "civilian" personal defense loads (105/9, 135/40, 165/45) expand more and penetrate less than the heavier LE loads tested above.

105/9
bare 10/.57
cloth 10.5/.62
wboard 9.5/.61
pwood 10/.55

165/45
bare 10/.77
cloth 10/.77
wboard 10.5/.76
pwood 12/.67

135/40
bare 11.5/.77

***********

Based on the penetration numbers, I believe I would go with the heavier LE loads rather than the lighter "civilian" loads, if I wanted to carry the EFMJ rounds.

Not sure about legality in places like New Jersey.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Mike,

Thanks for the stats. Like you, I'm having a hard time tracking original sources for these stats.

You da man.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

submoa, I was just looking at ammoman.com under 9mm and there are a few pictures of the Federal EFMJ including stats as well as pictures of the actual bullet passing through wood and I think a layer of gelatin. I hope that helps 

-Jeff-


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## bpsig (Apr 14, 2008)

Well i have 3 boxes of efmj 9mm 124 gr, 40 165, 45 230gr.
I believe the army has approved the use the 9mm for in theater iraq and Afganistan. The usaf was issuing the federal 115 jhp for deployment for security and fac. They have decided not a enough of a stopper and going back to a 45 acp . The army ordered a lot more 9mms and going to try this round instead of using something with more mass. A 40 would be a large step up with a good hp in 155-165 . But change is a bad thing in the not our idea crowds.
Convention only applies to armies not ragtag bandit crazies. so hp's okay.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

bpsig said:


> Well i have 3 boxes of efmj 9mm 124 gr, 40 165, 45 230gr.
> I believe the army has approved the use the 9mm for in theater iraq and Afganistan. The usaf was issuing the federal 115 jhp for deployment for security and fac. They have decided not a enough of a stopper and going back to a 45 acp . The army ordered a lot more 9mms and going to try this round instead of using something with more mass. A 40 would be a large step up with a good hp in 155-165 . But change is a bad thing in the not our idea crowds.
> Convention only applies to armies not ragtag bandit crazies. so hp's okay.


Where are you getting this information? I just got back from Afghanistan, where I worked primarily in battalion-level Army logistics. We issued nothing but ball ammo, and a very small quantity of 7.62X51mm match (to our snipers). I am completely unaware of any military personnel in theater - aside from possibly a few secret squirrels - carrying _any_ kind of expanding ammo.

Not going to .40 has nothing to do with "not our idea," and everything to do with the infrequency of pistol use and the staggering logistical difficulty of introducing new ammunition into the supply system in wartime.

Neither the Army nor the Air Force has any serious plans to go back to .45ACP in the near future. It makes for good copy in in military tabloids and the gun press, but it's just not an issue in the real world.

Whether or not the Hague Accords and/or Geneva Convention apply to insurgents, we are operating under those rules regardless, which _de facto_ eliminates expanding ammo.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

The purpose of EFMJ is to circumvent the rules in jurisdictions run by pants-wetters. If the City Council says "Icky hollow-points are prohibited," you load up with EFMJ, so you can say, truthfully, "Look at it; it ain't hollow, is it? Happy? Good, now leave me alone."


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I've read the EFMJ from Federal is a good load when potential threats will be too heavily clothed for Hydrashoks to do the job. :smt023


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

I guess this post hasn't died.

I'm sticking to 147gr JHPs as my 9mm load.

As an FYI regarding hollow points in military use, the 7.62x51NATO M852 Match round has been in use by snipers since the 80s. The M852 uses a 168gr Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point boat tail bullet. 

My experience has been that the M852 sacrifices a bit of range, but is a more precise and consistent round than the M118 173gr FMJBT. Currently forces are transitioning to M118LR based on the 175gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Those are match hollow points, which aren't designed for expansion. Rather, the HP tip is a result of the manufacturing process that makes these bullets so very accurate. I believe the military got an "official" ruling that because the HP tip is a result of the method of manufacturing, and NOT designed to upset/expand in soft squishy targets, it is approved for military/wartime use.

EDIT: located a source, but I don't think this is the original document, or even a copy of it; it seems to be a recreation. But anyway, this is the info/ruling I was talking about. Since the original ruling, I believe it may have been expanded.

http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html

Back to the EFMJ bullets. I tried a 50-shot box through each of my Glock 9mms when these rounds first became available, and was surprised to get a couple of hangups in the subcompact G26 (feed ramp stoppage, or failure to chamber). I dissected a few of the rounds/bullets, shot various items with them, and came to the conclusion that they were nothing I needed to have. If legal in states/areas like NJ, with their JHP ban, then they might serve a useful purpose; but for those of us lucky enough to live in areas without such concerns, a standard-construction JHP should take care of most of our needs.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

submoa said:


> I'm sticking to 147gr JHPs as my 9mm load.


After reading your other post on this and the other info in that thread, http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=13488, I've decided to go that route as well once I pick up a XD9SC; which hopefully will be this weekend if I can convince the wife to give me an early Father's Day gift.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

DJ Niner said:


> Those are match hollow points, which aren't designed for expansion. Rather, the HP tip is a result of the manufacturing process that makes these bullets so very accurate.





submoa said:


> My experience has been that the M852 sacrifices a bit of range, but is a more precise and consistent round than the M118 173gr FMJBT.


Use of terms "open tip," ogival spitzer tip, and "match hollow points" are just attempts to differentiate certain hollowpoints from the 'expanding/fragmenting' category. The cavity in open tips are smaller than those seen in JHP sidearm loads. However, the manufacturer of MatchKing bullets used in the M852 rounds does not ease any confusion by continuing to call them "Hollow Point Boat Tails." http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=rifle&brandID=1

In reality, unless you are shooting at extreme range or through an intermediate barrier such as a wall, glass, vehicle, etc. wounds produced by a sniper rifle are through and through regardess of whether you use HPBTs or FMJBTs. There is no additional 'unnecessary suffering,' and this I believe was the basis for the original JAG approval.

Its unfortunate, but the ongoing confusion over HPBT rounds has resulted in a lot of stupidity in Iraq.



> The Washington Times
> 
> January 20, 2006 Friday
> 
> ...





> Sniper punished
> The Army has cleared a sniper in Iraq of violating operational security rules in helping to educate a judge advocate general (military lawyer) about the legality of open-tip bullets used by snipers to shoot insurgents who are killing American and allied troops.
> However, the sniper, Sgt. Arthur J. Hushen, is continuing to face retaliation for blowing the whistle on an improper order for snipers to stop using the highly-effective M118LR ammunition in Iraq because it was thought to be an illegal hollow-point bullet. He was recently forced to move to a tent for "outcasts," said his wife, Sherry.
> Sgt. Hushen recounted in a statement how he challenged the 4th Infantry Division lawyer, a woman identified only as "Maj. Card," after he obtained information from an Internet sniper forum showing that the bullets had been judged legal for use for years.
> ...


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Interesting. I had not heard of that incident, or the follow-up.


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## nukehayes (Sep 22, 2006)

For formal gel testing on the EFMJ bullets, go to www.brassfetcher.com and also try www.theboxotruth.com, not so sure about the latter, but I think he did some. I carry the 105gr. 9mm load. I got to thinking about overpenetration with my 147gr Rem Golden Sabers and everywhere I go, there are a lot of people, I would rather not kill an innocent once my bullet has done it's job on the bad guy. I probably won't take a shot anyway if there are people behind the BG and/or he's close enough to ensure a good hit. The EFMJ gives me just a little more peace of mind, it has nothing to do with the feeding characteristics. I hope the websites help.:smt1099


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Thanks.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm Federal 105gr Expanding Full Metal Jacket.html Gelatin not calibrated to FBI standard. Fired from "Recoil-operated handgun with 4.0" barrel length". What semi-auto gun? Rifled or hex barrel? Is this the same gun for all their tests?

The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% Ballistic Gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight (i.e., one pound of gelatin to 9 pounds of water). The gelatin is stored at 4° Centigrade (39.2° Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature.

If overpenetration worries you, load with Blue Glasers or Extreme Shock Silent Warrior frangible rounds. Glasers are supposed to be safe for use inside pressurized aircraft.

Was originally curious about EFMJs because JHPs often plug and not expand. EFMJs were supposed to expand more reliably but there has been no credible proof of this claim.

Sticking to 147gr JHP loads for SD.


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