# Yet another school shooting.



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/live-updates-shooting-santa-fe-texas-high-school-150311016.html


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## yellowtr (Oct 28, 2016)

Been outside working on the garden and lawn. Came in and looked at the news and saw this on Fox. 
I am not sure I can comprehend what is going on with the young kids these days. Where does all that hate and anger come from?

Are these kids suffering from mental disease that is being ignored?

This kid loads up with a semi-auto rifle, shotgun, pistol and pipe bombs and just walks into a school and starts shooting and blowing up staff and students? What, were they stealth models? How does that much fire power enter a school undetected?
And with this amount of stuff, it had to be brewing for quite awhile and went undetected by parents, teachers, police?

Very sad day in Texas for sure. 
And yes, the NRA is already being blamed.


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## Bersaguy (May 5, 2018)

Prayers for all affected in this terrible situation. I can't and won't try to think what the parents of those lost children are going through. Back when I was in high school if we had a beef we took it out side and went at it till one or the other gave up and 15 minutes later we were friends again. And back they all of us had shotguns and rifles hanging in the back windows of our pickup trucks so we could go hunting after school. What we didn't have back then was SOCIAL MEDIA and every kid with a cell phone with their eyes trained on it almost 24/7 that is turning children into thoughtless mindless killers...................JMHO


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Bersaguy said:


> Prayers for all affected in this terrible situation. I can't and won't try to think what the parents of those lost children are going through. Back when I was in high school if we had a beef we took it out side and went at it till one or the other gave up and 15 minutes later we were friends again. And back they all of us had shotguns and rifles hanging in the back windows of our pickup trucks so we could go hunting after school. What we didn't have back then was *SOCIAL MEDIA* and every kid with a cell phone with their eyes trained on it almost 24/7 that is turning children into thoughtless mindless killers...................JMHO


Not only is it social media. It's the national news media that sensationalizes these events for months on end. It's now ingrained in these little monster's minds to grab a gun and take out all of their aggressions on their fellow students. Not only that you'll be famous. I swear to God I think it's all intentional on the part of the national news media in order to further their anti gun agenda. The end justifies the means. The more shootings there are the more useless gun laws are passed until one day our 2nd Amendment will be legislated out of existence. Oh we'll still have our 2nd Amendment alright but it will be limited to the types of weapons that were only available in the 1700's.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

There is evil in this world and it will raise it's ugly head when every chance it can. Tragedy always follows evil when it acts, and I have sympathy for those it harms. We can stop some and make it harder to raise it's head, but we can not stop it all. We can only be prepared and willing to face it head on and destroy it.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

I really am saddened by these tragedies. I'm not sure what the solution is. I know it is not a rubber stamp law. I still believe a single manned entrance to schools would go a long way.


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## AZdave (Oct 23, 2015)

Another coward looking for his 15 minutes of fame giving freely by the 24/7 news.


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## sudo (Aug 29, 2017)

A shotgun and a 38 revolver used this time.

So some new targets for the anti 2nd amendment crowd.

I think the lack of parental discipline when raising kids is a partial cause of this. Some people are raising monsters.

Also, fewer families attending church with their kids.

Kids end up with no boundaries and little sense of right or wrong.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Parents aren't parenting like they used to. Too many distractions. Kids are given too much leeway and freedom, and not enough direction in life. 

I also believe that social media is out of control and to blame to a certain degree. Sad thing is, I just don't see all this getting any better.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Time to ban shotguns and revolvers........

Sad day and yet another senseless shooting........

Time of long overdue to repeal the gun free school zone law and have armed guards and or police in all schools.....

Click to enlarge------>


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Texas school resource officers are being praised as 'heroes' for quickly confronting the Santa Fe shooter in the middle of the attack..........
https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...shooter-in-the-middle-of-the-attack/23438401/


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Just a couple of thoughts that I have noticed about these high school shootings, first is the size of theses schools all well over 1,000 children, no wonder they crazies slip through the cracks, second most if not all have been prescribed some type of mind altering drug, third parents in denial, or not even there at all. No one has taught them some people just won't like you and say mean things to you, oh well suck it up buttercup that is life.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

sudo said:


> ...I think the lack of parental discipline when raising kids is a partial cause of this...Kids end up with no boundaries and little sense of right or wrong.





paratrooper said:


> Parents aren't parenting like they used to. Too many distractions. Kids are given too much leeway and freedom, and not enough direction in life.
> I also believe that social media is out of control and to blame to a certain degree. Sad thing is, I just don't see all this getting any better.


Exactly!


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

I know it's not popular to suggest this, but I think part of the problem is computer and console games. I know they are just games and most don't act out based on these fantasies, but never the less, I think it can desensitize some of these children, especially those who might already have borderline personality disorders. Take Grand Theft Auto for an example. The player gets points for being a pimp and murdering his ladies in a gruesome manner. In the game Postal, you're a mail carrier and are expected at some point to become an active shooter, killing as many as possible until law enforcement takes you down. Even the war game Call to Duty, you're given a choice of weapons and go out and slaughter as many of the other team as possible. That other team is made up with other real people playing the game online with you. If you are killed, you just come back to life after a short pause. What does that teach about death? There's less and less strategy any more. Just destroy as many people as possible. I'm not saying these games create monsters in and of themselves, but I think it contributes by desensitizing children to the realities of life and death. Death no longer causes revulsion in some immature children like it might for members of an older generation.


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## yellowtr (Oct 28, 2016)

Talked to my daughter, who teaches 6th and 7th grade math and science. She believes part (most) of the problem with these young kids is the lack of a father figure deep in their everyday lives. 
She has to deal with their lack of concentration and overall discipline everyday. She thinks that when the boys and girls are bored at home, the parent just gives them a cell phone and tells them to play a game or something. 
What should happen is the parent should instead do something with the kid. Get involved in their lives, activities etc.

I look back at my childhood and me and my brother were always doing something to keep us busy. And on weekends we would be with both parents going here and there for swimming, travel, and the ever present rock collecting trip. My dad was an avid collector and his hobby was transplanted to us not only as a hobby for us but a way for Dad to teach us and most important just being around.

Other Dads of the era took their children fishing, hunting, golfing etc.
I think, for the most part, that era is long gone and my daughter sees that as a core cause of what we are living with today.

The problem is there is no easy fix. And with all the high taxes imposed by local, state and federal govts. in most cases both parents have to work at full time jobs leaving less time for their kids.


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## joepeat (Jul 8, 2015)

Craigh said:


> I know it's not popular to suggest this, but I think part of the problem is computer and console games. I know they are just games and most don't act out based on these fantasies, but never the less, I think it can desensitize some of these children, especially those who might already have borderline personality disorders. Take Grand Theft Auto for an example. The player gets points for being a pimp and murdering his ladies in a gruesome manner. In the game Postal, you're a mail carrier and are expected at some point to become an active shooter, killing as many as possible until law enforcement takes you down. Even the war game Call to Duty, you're given a choice of weapons and go out and slaughter as many of the other team as possible. That other team is made up with other real people playing the game online with you. If you are killed, you just come back to life after a short pause. What does that teach about death? There's less and less strategy any more. Just destroy as many people as possible. I'm not saying these games create monsters in and of themselves, but I think it contributes by desensitizing children to the realities of life and death. Death no longer causes revulsion in some immature children like it might for members of an older generation.


I think that's a *big* part of the problem. Couple those games with a teenage brain and you have a recipe for disaster: ...emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

joepeat said:


> I think that's a *big* part of the problem. Couple those games with a teenage brain and you have a recipe for disaster: ...emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25.


I've read many of the same studies on brain development. As I remember, the male's brain is slower to reach maturity than a female's, though not by a lot. Those studies seem to indicate a young boy under 25 is still developing long term brain connections and are liable to make poor choices. This development and resulting poor decisions can be affected by poor input like games, poor parenting and television.

I've noticed games over the past decade have shorter and shorter scenarios. Whereas older games might take weeks or even months to complete, their modern versions consist of a series of short scenarios which can be completed in hours or even less time. The children these days have such shortened attention spans, the game writers have been forced to design their games consistent with this phenomena though computing power has increased dramatically over the same period.

One lengthy study I looked at addressed this shortened attention span in young people as being a result of too much television at too early of ages and development. It talked about television being used as a modern baby sitter. Television shows are made of extremely fast scenes linked together. Flash one scene, then seconds later another and so forth. Computer animation of cartoons have really sped it up with repeated actions over and over, flashing on the screen. Babies' and young children's brains train to accommodate this fast changing visual story line. They fail to learn how to process longer data streams and this stays with them through maturity.

Look at the interviews of that Cruz guy in the Florida shooting as an example. He looked and talked in a confused manner and showed remorse, yet didn't fully understand what he had done. He just couldn't seem to put two and two together. I think this is indicative of the studies you and I have seen. I don't know of an easy solution. We'd have to adjust the way we parent for starters. We'd have to get away from the divorce rates we now have to provide children with two parents. Getting back to reading books and playing team sports at an early age comes to mind. Television should not be used as a baby sitter. Even adults might consider less television and more community activities like going on Boy Scout camp outs, to church, reading to their younger children etc. It would take a wholesale change in the way we're doing things these days.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Good analysis, Craig.
I agree.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Things seem to get worse once it took both parents working to make ends meet....... My opinion, it was done by design rather than necessity........


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Cait43 said:


> Things seem to get worse once it took both parents working to make ends meet....... My opinion, it was done by design rather than necessity........


I think this has been prevalent throughout history. Because the winners write the history books, we often don't see it. For example, the pre-civil war South had slavery. These workers made very little for themselves, just the basic food, clothing, and shelter needs. The ruling class reaped the excess of this work. In the North at that same time, things were very similar. It just wasn't called slavery. You had factories employing very young children and women as well as men for very long hours, seven days a week with no holidays and for very low pay, just the basics again. The excess work went to the ruling class, the factory owners, in this case with a few professionals like doctors and politicians. Like the South, there was a very small yeoman class with limited entrance, like blacksmiths, subsistence farmers, barbers, saloon owners, etc. The North and South were very similar in structure and close to European models as well. Today, is much the same. I'm not saying I disagree with this model as long as entrance to higher class is not barred by law. Moreover a constitution and bill of rights type documents have to be in place and be observed to protect the lower classes in their ability to pursue a higher station. I think there is a need for the highest class to preserve an entrepreneurial structure so the lower classes have a mechanism available to them so they can rise. In the past skin color, sex, religion, and age designated people who were legally barred from entrance into the entrepreneurial classes or even the free yeoman classes.

So, I don't know if having a system which requires both parents working is by design or not, but it certainly helps to bar advancement at times. Part of this is caused by entitlement mentality and cheap credit. In the past, the company store acted in much the same way, locking employees into continued low wage employment. A difference today might be people volunteering to become indebted when they have to have that new car, television, iPhone, etc. They feel entitled in the same way many unemployed feel entitled to taking from the wage earners in the form of taxation. It's all of the same thing, if you analyse it at all. History just repeats itself. Occasionally, men have to rise up, tear down the castles, and start over. I'm just too old to start tearing down castles. It will happen some day. It always does. There will be too many slave holders, factory owners, Kings and knights, against the entitled who feel disenfranchised but actually are not. It finally explodes and the castle walls come crumbling down. This is known as "Bad Luck."


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## Bersaguy (May 5, 2018)

Well I guess my family was a little different back when I was growing up. there was myself and 3 older brothers. I was into hunting and fishing and buy age 10 I owned a 22 rifle and a 4.10 shotgun and hunted small game. My older brothers all had things they were interested in doing. One was into cars and lke hangin arond a local garage in the small town we lived in and learned how to fix cars. One was into collecting baseball cards and Comic books and the oldest brother was a book worm and loved reading. many times we would go out in back yard and play wiffle ball or some other games, Marbles was another big one for all of us. As far as spending time with our parents. Well there was a limited amount for that. Father was an over the road trucker and mother was short order cook in a local meat and 3 resturant that served breakfast thru supper and she was the morning cook and gone and it was up to us to get up and dress and make it to school and every morning it was a team effort but we managed to catch the school bus every morning. When we moved down here to Tennessee I was already in 12th grade and all the other brothers had followed their own courses. Oldest joined Air Force, next oldest joined Navy. Brother next to me was in college on a scholarship and that left me at home. Father retired and became a farmer on my grandfathers huge farm and mother tended to house things about it such as meals and house work. We now lived way out in the country so I was now driving to school and my 61 Chevy Convertable stuck out like a sore thumb in school parking lot of pick up trucks with rifles and shotguns hanging in gun racks in the back windows. I talked with my grandfather and father about it and a week later my convertable got traded for a nce dressed up Chevy Pick up with a gun rack and guns in the rack.On the 2nd day of school with my truck I was invited to go hunting with a few kids at school. It was squirrel season and if I can remember I got 3 that evening. 
Now with al that said here is 4 boys with both parents working while growng up yet we lived and did what kids should do growng up. Not one of us ever got in trouble with the law. One thing I notice a while back that I will never understand. I was with my daughter and grand daughter having lunch and some resturant and there was 2 girls about 16-18 years old sitting in a booth opposite us and both had cel phones in their hands. First one would text and then the other would text. My grandaughter informed us that they were talking to each other. I said you have to be kdding and she said no, that she knew them both. I said why don't they just talk to each other and she said because most kids don't consider talking as being cool. Form your own opinion on that but I have mine and it ain't cool..................:watching:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Craig*: Another very nicely done analysis! As is often the case, we agree.

*Bersaguy*: The key phrase in your piece, I think, is, "it was a team effort." You and your siblings learned responsibility, and ethics too, by having had to take care of your own needs together, coöperatively.
Most modern kids have it handed to them, and have no concept of what the delivery costs. The result is that they have neither a value structure nor the intellectual tools with which to acquire one.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

yellowtr said:


> Talked to my daughter, who teaches 6th and 7th grade math and science. She believes part (most) of the problem with these young kids is the lack of a father figure deep in their everyday lives.
> She has to deal with their lack of concentration and overall discipline everyday. She thinks that when the boys and girls are bored at home, the parent just gives them a cell phone and tells them to play a game or something.
> What should happen is the parent should instead do something with the kid. Get involved in their lives, activities etc.
> 
> ...


Mother always had the liberal, enabling attitude. 
Father was always the hard arse.
When mom lost control, it was, and we all heard it " wait til your father gets home "


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

That being said about fathers.
We don't possess that strength or moral values that DAD used to bring to the table. 
A vast majority of Dads today are liberal minded, enabling, and not worth a fuc!


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## Bersaguy (May 5, 2018)

My father was a wonderful gentle man "UNTIL" one of us kids push his button and he was quick to correct what ever issue needed dealing with. Even though we seldom got to see him while growing up because like I said he was aroad driver and gone for 2 to 3 weeks at a time many trips. Didn't have super highways back then. I can rememeber 1 story my mother use to love to tell folks about me and Dad. I was about 3 years old and it was a weekend so Mom was not at working yet She didn't begin working till we were all in school. 
Sometimes my father would come home in the middle of the night and to not disturb anyone he would just stretch out on the couch with a blanket and a pillow. I got up early that morning and went down stairs to the bathroom and when I came out I went in the living room and saw Dad!!! He had been gone about 3 weeks to California. I started running into my mothers bedroom screaming "Momma Momma that mans here again"!!! Well needless to say I woke the entire house up about 7AM with my screaming. My mother hugged me and she said "son, thats your father and you need to go hug his neck." So I did and everything was ok again. He got to stay home for about 4 days before I leaving again and for those 4 days we were all together and a family once again.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

pic said:


> "wait til your father gets home "


My dad's rule with mom was to handle things immediately. He was that way too. He felt punishment delayed lost effectiveness. If she said, "wait till your dad gets home," like as not, he'd not do a thing unless mom was sick or something. Mom learned in short order, and we learned not to mess with mom. She could bend you over with dad's belt in hand as well as dad could. Punishment was metered out right away without recrimination or anger. It just was a painful lesson.

I remember the last time mom had said, "wait till your dad gets home." We three boys were fairly young and waited in a bedroom. We stuffed our pants with books. Dad came in with his belt and made us grab our ankles. He whipped away right on the books, and we started chuckling. He stopped, stood up, and sternly told us if we didn't start crying out loud, he would make us remove the books. LOL Lesson learned again. Until the day mom died, she's the one who often recounted that story. She said she was so angry at dad. She had heard the whole thing from the other room. She said this was the day she decided to always mete out her own punishment. Cut a switch boys.

Edit: Mom sometimes used dad's belt, but her weapon of choice was an orange tree sucker limb. They were strong, flexible, but thin and created a bright red welt. Bare butt or through jeans depending on the crime committed. I really don't think it mattered much. You couldn't sit down either way.


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## Bersaguy (May 5, 2018)

Well as I was starting a family of my own I would hear other young parents say that they wanted better for their children than what they had growing up. My kids got no more or no less than I did while growing up. They got the necessities that is needed in life but anything special they earned. Not by working as much as by just staying out of trouble and doing what was right. Being responsible was one of those things that earned anything extra for them. My Sons raised their children with that same attitude. My sons and their wives were very good parents and that trait has been passed down to my Grandsons who are starting their families. And yes there are guns in every house locked away in gun safes except when in use and the few that are house protection and they are out of sight and reach of the children.


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## Babbalou1956 (Sep 2, 2014)

Before honor & wisdom went out of fashion we were taught coping skills. Home & school. "Experts" said that was bad for self-esteem so, use prescription drugs instead. Drugs masked the symptoms but didn't fix the problem. So the problem grew until the kid snapped. In my high school nearly every truck had a deer rifle in the back window & we didn't shoot each other. In the 90s I worked at a place where homeless kids lived, waiting to be adopted. About half of them were on Ritalin & they fought us & each other like rabid wolves. We were all trained in using physical restraints. Going back to the 1930s my dad worked to help feed his family from about 10 & on because his dad left. He joined the Army Air Corps at 17 & went to Germany. Came back & put himself through college plus a brother & sister. Rough way to start life but he never spent a day in jail. Prescription drugs were not an option. It was adapt or die. That mindset is long gone in our culture & that's why so many vote for the free crib & bottle. And once in awhile snap & make news when life gets too hard.


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## Bersaguy (May 5, 2018)

We could blame a lot of things on why young people are acting out and lashing out at others. I can give you another couple. 1st would be the Department of Human Services when they got the laws past stopping corporal punishment in the home. Parents where not longer allowed to discipline their own children. I don't mean abuse them but a butt whipping never hurt me physcially but taught me not to do what earned me that last one. 2nd was the Child Abuse Hotline. It didn't take the kids but a few days to pick up on how to use it to control their parents and get what they wanted. Just call the Hot Line and report that one parent or the other was abusing them and DHS was knocking on the door with police in two to remove the abuser when there was never any abuse to begin with. Parents learn quickly not to correct their chidren for fear of being arrested. Now we are reaping what damages DHS did back in the 1990s with kids killing other kids. DHS is the cause of a lot of single parent homes by having 1 parent removed from the home because of a phone call made by a child. I have known a few truely abused kids and one of them told me one time that he wold never call that number. I asked him why and he said. " because if they did not take the abuser out of the home which on many occassions they didn't the abuse would be 10 times worse after DHS and the cops left." These are just some of my opinions.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

JPFO just published the following editorial:

*Liberals Must Step Back for School Safety*
*AMERICA CAN NO LONGER TOLERATE DELAYS AND BLIND FEAR*

In Santa Fe, Texas, a teacher, a former Marine, was next door to the latest mass murderer--disarmed due to irrational liberal gun policy. That particular liberal obstacle, disarming competent adults, must end. This is the position of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

"When it comes to gun policy, the political left is harming America, delaying rational programs, and flatly denying the public's rights. Denying civil rights always has bad consequences, as we saw here," said Alan Korwin, an author and consultant to the group. JPFO notes that arming pilots was delayed for years by left-wing fears, the same as their virtually paranoid efforts to block non-existent "invisible" guns, which became the police-standard polymer sidearms, and delays to the public's crime-stopping concealed-carry permits, now working just fine in all 50 states.

"Liberal democrats are mainly to blame for keeping schools defenseless," said Alan Gottlieb, JPFO's Chairman. "By constantly lobbying to prevent any form of armed protection in schools these politicians defeat the Bill of Rights and put our children at risk. Democrats and progressives must relent and protect our kids." Texas law allows firearms in schools in the hands of trained people. "Remove the roadblocks, save our kids, and make it so nationwide," he said. JPFO promotes sane gun policy.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Bersaguy said:


> Department of Human Services when they got the laws past stopping corporal punishment in the home. Parents where not longer allowed to discipline their own children. I don't mean abuse them but a butt whipping never hurt me physcially but taught me not to do what earned me that last one. 2nd was the Child Abuse Hotline. It didn't take the kids but a few days to pick up on how to use it to control their parents and get what they wanted. Just call the Hot Line and report that one parent or the other was abusing them and DHS was knocking on the door with police in two to remove the abuser when there was never any abuse to begin with. Parents learn quickly not to correct their chidren for fear of being arrested.


I don't know if anyone here has ever watched the comedian Russell Peters, but he's one of my very favorites. He's hilarious. He's a Canadian whose family is from India and he does an Indian accent to perfection, especially when talking about his father. One of the expressions his father used prior to punishment was, "Somebody gonna get a hurt, real bad" and this has become one of Peter's trade sayings in his act. Probably my favorite was his story about how he took the advice of another child and threatened to call Children's Aid, which is similar to DHS in the States. His dad's reaction is so funny. I'll include the short video here. It's funny yet appropriate to our discussion.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

That was wonderful!
Thanks, Craig.

I got spanked once, and only once.
Ever after, when I did something bad, one parent or another would say, "Do you want another spanking?"
It worked pretty well on me, I gotta say.

So I did the same with my own daughter.
One day, at age maybe four, she heedlessly ran out into the street. So I gave her a swat. Only one, and not terribly hard.
Ever since then (and maybe even now, when she's 40 and with a kid of her own) I would only have to say, "Do you want another swat?" And I got instant obedience.

My friend and talented gunsmith, Charlie, had three sons. The oldest one was strong and forthright. The youngest was totally obedient and a really good scholar. But the middle son was rebellious and extremely difficult to control.
The middle son got lots of swats, mostly after behaving really badly, and therefore with his father's belt. Charlie's method was to tell the middle son to go up to the closet and choose the belt with which he was to be beaten. This was excellent intimidation and focus control, and it worked pretty well, for about a week at a time.
But it came to an end when the middle son was about 12 years old. He did something really bad, so his father told him to go to the closet and pick out the belt with which he would be beaten. The middle son had gotten clever, and he came back with the soft, terrycloth belt from his father's bathrobe.
I've lost track of the kids, now that Charlie has died, but I bet that the middle son is now in one California prison or another.


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