# Nice to know - Lake City Arsenal



## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

I found out that Lake City, Mo. US Arsenal is now making ammo for Winchester as well as Federal starting just recently. For quite a few years now, Federal leased the facility and made most of the military's needs for 5.56 NATO munitions both in M193 and M855 standard or green tip. A good deal was also sold on the civilian market and I liked it quite a bit. Now Winchester also is making the same ammo in the same factory using the same brass, primers, bullets and power as Federal does to make Mil Spec ammo, but Winchester seems to be a good bit cheaper. I just ordered 500 rounds of M193 55 grn. 5.56 NATO from Cheaper than Dirt for *$164.89* which I think is a good buy considering the quality of Lake City stuff. It's all brass and boxer primed. The bullets are FMJ Boat-tail and they're loaded to Mil-Spec with that annealed discoloration to the brass which the military insists on. That's less than 33 cents per round. Pretty good. Just thought I'd give a heads up. Many rifle training courses will chew up 1,000 rounds in a weekend and I don't like trusting the somewhat cheaper Russian steel cased ammo like Brown Bear or Tulammo. They aren't that much cheaper at 25 cents per round and they are Berdan primed so unreloadable.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

I would like to hear a report from you on the reliability and accuracy of this ammunition. I have generally shot the Federal American Eagle XM193 and XM855 ammunition made at by Lake City, but I have also shot a fair bit of IMI (Israel Military Industries) and PPU (Prvi Partizan) versions of M193 and M855 as well.

In the past, the Winchester 5.56x45 mm 55 grain FMJ ammunition was made in Korea and went by the product number Q3131A1 (instead of Q3131L). I never shot any because I usually found the above alternatives at prices as cheap or cheaper. There was also an interesting test of consistency and accuracy of different M193 and M855 clones posted on this forum:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-511804/?

In that testing which seems to have been done in quite a consistent fashion, the IMI M193 outperformed the Lake City Federal by a small margin, and both outperformed the PPU and Winchester Q3131A1, which were more or less on par with each other.

In the testing of the M855 loads at 100 meters from a 20" 1:9 twist barrel, I was a little surprised to see that the accuracy of the IMI M855 load outperformed not only Winchester Ranger M855, Federal XM855 (Lake City), and PPU M855, but also outperformed all of the four previously tested M193 clones as well.

My impression has been that the performance of the PPU M855 load is roughly equivalent to that of Lake City Federal American Eagle XM855, and these tests would appear to bear that out.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

It arrives on Thursday and I'll probably go to the range this Saturday to try it out. If not, it'll be next week. According to the Winchester material I read, they're using the same exact components at Lake City as Federal does and the same equipment. As you say, it's Winchester #Q3131L. The LC number on the Winchester bulk is USA556LK. All the data on it including ballistic data matches the Federal M193 exactly. I'd guess it will be the exact same thing as the Federal Lake City ammo, but I'll soon see.

Here's their description:_ "Lake City Army Ammunition Plant has extended its facilities and equipment to Winchester to load their Mil-Spec brand of ammunition using Lake City Mil-Spec components; bullet, primer, powder and brass. In the recent past, Federal was the exclusive source for Lake City ammunition, but now you can purchase ammunition loaded in the Lake City Plant from Winchester. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant now contracts to build Mil-Spec, consumer ammunition are now shared with Federal, Winchester, and Hornady. The last time we saw Mil-Spec, Lake City, M193 ammo from Winchester was the Q3131 white box that was loaded in the Lake City Plant back when Olin ran the plant. Welcome the return of the Winchester Mil-Spec ammunition, loaded by a name you trust, backed by Lake City quality, and priced very competitively."_

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/winchester-lake-city-556-nato-ammunition-500-rounds-fmj-55-grains-00020892225114.do

I've had good luck in the past with PPU but I've mostly used American Eagle M193 because I've always done well and it's always been reliable for me. I've not ever tried the IMI because of so much online chatter about blown primers or light hits. I've not had any personal experience with it to know and probably won't.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

The most accurate for me was the Fiocchi Exacta 69 grn Matchking from a Mossberg MVP Thunder Ranch. It was sub-MOA at 100 yrds. I didn't shoot it at a longer range as the gun wasn't mine. I plan to get one, though.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Ok, my shipment arrived today about noon. I'd ordered a 22 cal Hoppes bore snake, a Magpul 20 rnd AR mag for the range, a Ruger Mini-14 mag, and a 30 rnd OK AR mag as well as the 500 rounds of Winchester 5.56 Nato M193 Lake City Arsenal. The question was are they the same exact cartridge as the Federal Lake City round of the same designation. According to Winchester, they are the exact round made in the same US facility with the same Lake City US Mil Spec brass, powder, primers and bullets and using the same machinery and methods.

The only difference I see is the head stamp with the Winchester saying Winchester and the Federal saying Federal. I looked at Federal American Eagle LC, Federal Lake City, and these new Winchester Lake City and I see no difference right down the the annealing discoloration on the brass and the LC ring type crimp on the primer pocket. All the Lake City stuff looks the same and different from anything else I've used like PPU which had staked crimps instead of the ring type.

It'll probably be a week or so before I get out to the range. I might try them on a new Mossberg Thunder Ranch bolt action 18.5" barrel I'm ordering. Sweet rifle for longer ranges than my normal AR rifles and Mini-14. It might become my longer distant pig gun. My Super Blackhawk is my shorter distance pig gun. Anyway, I don't expect there to be any difference whatsoever between the 55 grn 5.56 NATO rounds from Lake City regardless on whose name is on the box. If so, the new Winchesters are the least expensive by a nice margin.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Ok, after a couple of hours at the club range trying out the new Winchester Lake City ammo. I shot two different boxes of Federal, one labeled American Eagle and one the older Lake City box. I then shot several boxes of the new Winchester M193 equivalent. The accuracy was the same for all, at least as good as I am with a Holosun 503C Red Dot at 50 and 100 yards. They all shot from a rest to 2 MOA which is combat accurate enough for me. In fact, it's better than I usually am with that sight. That M&P Scout II AR15 has a 1:9 twist barrel. Reliability was flawless using Magpul, OK Industries, and C-Products magazines. The firearm was completely clean and well lubed. 

Next I tried a two 20 rnd magazines using my circa 1980s Ruger Mini-14. It was flawless using a Ruger and a Promag 20 rounders. Normally, I don't use Promag, but the 20 for this rifle has never failed. This rifle only has iron sights and my accuracy was poorer. I shot 3-4 MOA with my tired older eyes. That's combat accurate enough though. I've actually gotten almost a consistent near MOA results at 50 yards shooting Fiocchi 223 Rem. with 50 grain Hornady VMax bullets from the factory, also with 40 grain rounds of the same type. Those have a muzzle velocity of 3,600 fps. It will literally explode a melon or a can of soda. With its low penetration and devastating results, I use it as one of my home defense rounds. I pity the surgeon who has to try to remove it and repair the damage or me having to remove pieces of home invader from my walls.

I have not received that Thunder Ranch rifle yet, but I'm sure the round will do well there.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Thanks for the report. I have generally found American Eagle Lake City XM193 at a decent price as Academy often has it at reduced price. But I will look out for the Winchester and give it a whirl if I find it at a comparable price.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

pblanc said:


> Thanks for the report. I have generally found American Eagle Lake City XM193 at a decent price as Academy often has it at reduced price. But I will look out for the Winchester and give it a whirl if I find it at a comparable price.


I like the Federal M193 stuff, but lately I've found the price a little high. The cheapest I've seen it was in 420 rnds per box at around $187 per box or which works out to around 45 cents per round. The Winchester Lake City is $162 per 500 right now. That's around 32 cents per round. That's a lot more reasonable for me. I've not yet seen any of the LC by Winchester in green tips. We'll see. After the varmint stuff, I pretty much only use XM193 or XM855.

At Academy Sports right now, Federal XM193 is $189.99 for a box of 420. That works out to around 45 cents per round. They'd have to put that on sale for $134 to equal the Winchester at 32 cents per round. Cheaper than Dirt gets it to me in 3 or 4 business days with standard free shipping to my doorstep.

I've purchased the Federal Lake City in two different box art. The newer American Eagle and this older Lake City box in pretty much all weights and amounts. Moreover, I really like Federal for most of my ammunition needs. Well, that's except for defensive handgun ammo and my nod goes to Speer Gold Dots, though my 2nd choice Federal HST is darn good too, and I have a couple of boxes.










I was worried about shooting 5.56 NATO in the Ruger because it said 223 Rem on the barrel. I wrote Ruger a while back and was told all Mini-14 rifles are chambered for 5.56 NATO and they are safe to fire. The owner's manual hints at this saying the rifle has been chambered and tested for military and civilian ammunition.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I've used a lot of 62 grain steel core bullets for hand loaded practice ammo, through a 1:7 16" barrel, using Winchester brass and primers, and Varget. On a good day, using a 1-4x Leupold shotgun scope, they will hover around 1 MOA at a hundred yards, if I throw out the flyers, which occur at the rate of about one for every 5-6 rounds. If I count the flyers, 2 MOA is probably about right. It's not anything near what can be done with better bullets, so I don't keep close track of it. Basically, it's good plinking ammo that will hit a beer can at 100 yards, about 3/4 of the time.

Sounds like you have accomplished about the same result, without staying humped over a reloading table for several hours.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Bisley said:


> Sounds like you have accomplished about the same result, without staying humped over a reloading table for several hours.


Well my friend, I've handloaded all my life, but in the case of .223/5.56 ammunition, I just find it pretty inexpensive and less time consuming to purchase it in bulk, especially considering my press is an old non-progressive RCBS. I'm also not looking for anything more than basic combat accuracy and plinking. I generally sight my ARs and Mini at 50 yards and hope for 1 inch groups at that close range, but it's often more like 1.5. Only that S&W M&P Scout II with its 1:9 twist seems to edge MOA for some reason. I think with scoped optics I could do better with all of them. My DYI AR with Anderson lower and a pencil barrel is the least accurate in my hands of the two ARs, but it still only has Magpul polymer sights; no optics. I've just never really liked it as much as the out of the box M&P so haven't bothered to scope it yet. That excellent M&P AR15 just has a superb Holosun Paralow solar powered 503C red circle-dot. It's only around $200 and is the best red dot I've tried, even against my old AimPoint. The only other accessories are a Magpul 2 point sling and a Nitecore P05 on a Magpul offset M-lock cantilever rail. Again, that little Nitecore is 460 lumens and seems better built than tactical lights costing 3 times more. It's all metal, submersible, and just slightly over fifty bucks. About the size of your thumb, weighing around 2 oz.

Nitecore Tactical Light P05

Holosun 503C Circle Red Dot

That Holosun comes with two mounts and an extra battery, but will work with solar panels without batteries in fair to good light. It makes a battery last almost forever; turns itself off and shakes awake. They claim the battery will last two years when left on constantly, but the solar technology, auto off, and automatic brightness features work together to extend the battery life dramatically beyond that. Pretty sweet. You get both a low mount and a higher co-witness mount in the package along with an allen wrench and nice felt lined box. I wish the caps were flip up, but they're not so easy to lose. I don't bother with them anyway. It weighs around 4 oz.

The MS1 Magpul 2 point sling weighs 6 oz and I like it over anything I've tried yet. It's very fast to use with that MS1 slider.

Magpul MS1-sling

Moreover, I'm ordering an 18.5 inch barreled Mossberg Thunder Ranch, and it will need the last of my meager funds to scope it first. I cancelled my cable tv and that money goes to club dues and gun stuff along with required withdrawals from my retirement accounts. I live day to day on SS and my pension. Sales from my art gallery can also go to gun stuff. LOL If some of the buyers only knew! Many are very liberal.

MVP Patrol Rifle - Thunder Ranch | O.F. Mossberg & Sons

Darn, I could write a book. Sorry. Actually, not sorry because I enjoy this.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

Great post Craigh. Thanks for the indepth report on the new LC & Federal ammo. I still have 2K of the old LC ammo from the early 80's! I shoot that in my SP1 and I can shoot 3-4 MOA when the need arises. Good Shootin Pardner!


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Blackhawkman said:


> Great post Craigh. Thanks for the indepth report on the new LC & Federal ammo. I still have 2K of the old LC ammo from the early 80's! I shoot that in my SP1 and I can shoot 3-4 MOA when the need arises. Good Shootin Pardner!


Thank you, but remember, I was shooting from a cast iron Hoppes bench rest with a very good red dot at only 50 yards, getting close to one inch groups with a rifle I shoot well. All bets are off if I have to stand or not use the rest. It goes poorly rather quickly at longer ranges too. I wanted to use the rest because I was comparing the ammo and wanted me out of it as much as possible. I'm just combat accurate, not a competitive shooter in the least. At 100 yards standing, I doubt I'd be 3-4 MOA. Without my cane, I'm not the most stable person around. LOL


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Academy Sports quite often puts their 20 round boxes of American Eagle 5.56 XM193 on sale for $6.99 which makes it just under 35 cents a round and usually less expensive than the cost per round for their 100 or 120 round boxes. They also ship free for on-line orders over $25, but you will probably have to pay sales tax. So not as cheap as what can be had by purchasing in larger quantities, but not too bad.

I much prefer buying ammo cased in smaller boxes where the rounds are physically separated by dividers as there is less potential for damage than with large cases of loose rounds. I suppose stripper clips would be OK. I have had to throw out rounds that came packed loose in boxes as a result of projectile set-back or severely damaged cases. These represent only a small percentage of the total number of rounds, but I am always concerned I will overlook a badly damaged cartridge when loading a magazine and suffer adverse consequences.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Craigh,

I find myself buying more factory ammo, these days, since there are often good buys on line, especially in 5.56. Of my four AR style rifles, only the budget build Palmettos that I assembled from parts and helped my grand son put together have ever had factory ammo fired through them. 

I ignored AR-15's for decades, after studying them carefully in the mid-sixties, with my dad. As a WWII and Korean War veteran, he was fascinated with the concept, and we both read everything that was published on the .223 and similar calibers, for years. But, I never really understood how accurate they could be in the AR-15 platform, till I had the opportunity to shoot one, about ten years ago. Now, the most accurate rifle I own is a 1:8 20" Heavy barrel AR, that easily shoots 1/2 MOA, with Hornady Match 68 grain bullets, and close to that with 70 grain Barnes TSX (for hunting).

But I keep a good stock of mil-surp type factory loads and even some of the 75 grain Gold Dots that were so cheap, for a short time.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

I think the price for factory 556 ammo and components to reload are close nowdays. I reload commercial brass 5.56 cases on the Clubb's Dillon Super 1050 and that works in our situation. I have plenty LC .223/5.56 ammo......


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

pblanc said:


> I much prefer buying ammo cased in smaller boxes where the rounds are physically separated by dividers as there is less potential for damage than with large cases of loose rounds. I suppose stripper clips would be OK. I have had to throw out rounds that came packed loose in boxes as a result of projectile set-back or severely damaged cases. These represent only a small percentage of the total number of rounds, but I am always concerned I will overlook a badly damaged cartridge when loading a magazine and suffer adverse consequences.


I completely agree. That shipment of Winchester XM193 from Cheaper than Dirt came in a cardboard box. Inside was 25 Winchester boxes of 20 rounds per box with that plastic divider. I don't prefer loose bulk either. I also don't prefer stripper clips. I've got a g'zillion of them and now just toss them or give them away. I keep ten or more 30 rnd magazines loaded and use colored whiteout to color mark the base plates to designate what they're loaded with if it's not obvious. Whiteout is easily removable with solvent. I basically only have five different loads. XM193, XM855, 62 grain hollowpoints, 50 grain Fiocchi with Hornady VMax and 40 grain of the same. I have a mixed batch of a few other types but not in magazines ready to go.

Ready to go, I keep around 10 30 round magazines charged. 2 with the 50 grn Fiocchi VMax, 1 with the 40 grn of the same, 2 with 62 grain hollowpoints, 3 with XM193 and 2 with XM855. This is just a general loadout. It can change. My less cumbersome 10 and 20 round magazines are usually used for the range. They don't poke down so far as to hit the table. I do test all the 30 rounders before I commit them to defense use, though, so they get some range time as well. My magazines are PMags, C-Products, and Okay Industries in order of preference, but I trust them equally and buy these three, often based on price. The excellent Okay mags would be rated higher but often come with some burrs at the welds I have to file off and blacken. Other than that, they are well made and reliable. I'd trust Lancer and maybe others, but why bother since these three have proven themselves to me and are less expensive.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Blackhawkman said:


> I think the price for factory 556 ammo and components to reload are close nowdays. I reload commercial brass 5.56 cases on the Clubb's Dillon Super 1050 and that works in our situation. I have plenty LC .223/5.56 ammo......


How about hand loading 223 Remington or 5.56x45 with the heavy 69 and 77 grain Sierra Match King projectiles? The commercial loads for those tend to be rather pricey, unless someone knows of a lower cost vendor.


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## kerryJ (Feb 27, 2018)

Glad to know about it. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

pblanc said:


> How about hand loading 223 Remington or 5.56x45 with the heavy 69 and 77 grain Sierra Match King projectiles? The commercial loads for those tend to be rather pricey, unless someone knows of a lower cost vendor.


I've got very few of those and I'll doubt I'll need them, but if I shot enough of those heavier bullets, I'd probably invest in a 3 die carbide set w/taper crimp. I hate lubing brass.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/757170/rcbs-carbide-3-die-set-with-taper-crimp?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Reloading%20-%20Dies%20%26%20Shellholders&utm_content=757170&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Reloading%20-%20Dies%20%26%20Shellholders-_-RCBS-_-757170&gclid=CjwKCAjw75HWBRAwEiwAdzefxIYgiGfSS86h_ZYYXxtma9xhcZDfEavEvNSflxJCnws8CiDEOPIbThoCcJYQAvD_BwE



kerryJ said:


> Glad to know about it. Thank you so much for sharing.


Thank you for saying so. I appreciate it. Do you currently live in Bangladesh? I have a very good friend and his family from Bangladesh. I asked him to bring me back one of those beautiful sweaters the next time he visits. They live here in Orlando now. His wife is a doctor, but she's having a hard time getting certified here. I don't know why. He's a computer guy. His name is Mesbah Ahmed.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Just saw it. At Cheaper than Dirt, they are now offering bulk Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO ammo for even less but in larger amounts. Only 31 cents per round when you buy 2,000 rounds of XM193. That's $623.49 and you're set for a while. You get 100 boxes of 20 with a little plastic divider separating 10 rounds per box so they don't get banged up (no pun intended) and makes it easier to take what you need to the range. You don't have to break them down loose into ammo cans. Very convenient.

We're starting to get down to the range of crappy steel Russian ammo like Tulammo or Wolf at these prices.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/winchester-lake-city-223-556-nato-ammunition-2000-rounds-fmj-55-grains-00020892225091.do?sortby=ourPicks


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