# What are the most dependable compact to subcompact 9mm's out there?



## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

I have been on the rental range looking for a new compact autoloader. I have two basic requirements. One is ZERO malfunctions and the other is a gun that is easy to rack for me and my wife. Eventually everyone of their guns has let me down (except 3) with a failure to feed, fire or eject. A Glock, a Beretta and the Shield have not missed a beat. (The Shield is hard to rack by the way). 

Looking around in these forums I have yet to see a Glock owner complain about reliability issues. Is that a valid observation? I have seen most other brands mentioned multiple times with a failure to feed, fire or eject but not Glock. Did I just miss the thread?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes, you must have missed that thread... no gun is above having a malfunction. 

On the bright side, most malfunctions are caused by the user or ammo selection. Partially seated mags, limp wristing, short stroking the slide while chambering, dirty feed ramp, dirty gun... are some common reasons for malfunctions.

Glocks are not immune.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

ZERO malfunctions in an auto loader ?? 
Maybe a revolver ?


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

pic said:


> ZERO malfunctions in an auto loader ??
> Maybe a revolver ?


Both of my Colt's (a Gov. model and GoldCup) in .45 acp would fail 2 to 3 times per 100 rounds, (stove pipe jams). That is WAY too much. So is 100% too much to ask for?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

KeithC. said:


> Both of my Colt's (a Gov. model and GoldCup) in .45 acp would fail 2 to 3 times per 100 rounds, (stove pipe jams). That is WAY too much. So is 100% too much to ask for?


I agree, 2 to 3 failures per 100 is to much


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

You have, yet, to see a Glock owner complain about reliability issues! Hell, I own three Glock pistols. In spite of the fact that I purchased each of them brand new, NONE OF THEM worked as they should have on the day that I brought each of them home - None of them!

I was already a decent gunsmith before I became involved with Glocks. After I started having really serious RTB problems with my first two G-21's I was forced to bypass Glock's pure bullcrap factory tech support, and figure out how to fix my new Glock pistols all by myself.

While I did make significant progress I might never have been able to completely solve Glock's RTB problems unless the Portland Police Bureau and the Georgia State Patrol filed a class-action lawsuit against Glock, GmbH/Inc. in order to get their own G-21's up and running. ('Perfection', Hell! Most of the time private consumers get crap from Glock; it's the police agencies that get most of the help; but, sometimes, even law enforcement has to go to court in order to get Glock to, 'fly straight'.)

My most recently purchased G-19 cost me over $600.00 dollars to walk out of the store with; and it's MIM extractor has been throwing brass into my head, eyes, and face ever since. I've, now, spent over $300 additional dollars trying to get it to operate as well as my repaired G-21's presently do; but, I've been only marginally successful; (and I've tried absolutely everything).

I've, now, got my troublesome G-19's BTF problem solved; but, with the result that instead of 6 to 10 foot flat-out ejection like I'm getting on my repaired G-21's, I'm getting only marginal 3 to 4 foot, 'humped' ejection tosses; but, at least, I'm no longer getting hit in the head with my own crazy-flying brass; so, I guess, something has improved!

Now, to address your concerns: There is no such thing as, 'zero malfunctions' with anybody's semiautomatic pistol. Here, you're attempting to achieve the impossible. Instead of looking for impossible, 'zero malfunctions' it would be better for you and your wife to, 'bone up' on the various semiautomatic clearance drills.

Ease of slide operation? A slide recoil spring's weight is determined by the caliber and charge of the cartridge the pistol is chambered for. If, for instance, you're using only target quality, 'range ammo' (Think Wal-Mart.) you can get away with using a recoil spring that's a pound, or two, lighter than usual. For LIMITED self-defense use you could, also, use the same reduced power recoil spring for some of your shooting and practice. (Me? I wouldn't; but it can be done.)

I have another approach to this problem: I'm an older pistol shooter; I've been doing this all of my long life; and, nowadays, I've got tendonitis in my well-used hands. It takes some doing for me to go, 'hand-over-top' (the H.O.T. method) in order to rack a slide. I can do it; but, it's not comfortable for me. After talking to a hand surgeon I'm, now, using the two strong, 'grasping fingers' of my hands - the index and middle - in order to pinch the front of my slide and rack it in this way.

In order to avoid breaking Cooper's Second Rule of Firearm Safety, I use only extended muzzles on my larger, heavier sprung, semiautomatics. (No part of my hand ever covers the front of the muzzle!) This method of slide manipulation works for me; and I'm still fast as the dickens using it; but I, also, practice a lot; and it don't take much for other shooters to notice that I'm dealing with some sort of hand problem. (Everybody compensates for something - Right!) Here's a picture of one of my Glocks for you to see what I'm talking about.










What are the most lightly sprung semiautomatic pistols? Glock, Springfield, Smith's M&P, and FN-USA. In fact try anything with a plastic frame. What you're looking for is a pistol with a significantly modified, Browning, (tilting barrel) lock-up mechanism. (Think the Glock design!) A little high tech grease in the slide channels, also, helps.

Personally I like Sentry Solutions, 'Hi-Slip' grease. Sentry Solutions: Hi-Slip Grease 12cc./ 12ml.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

"What are the most lightly sprung semiautomatic pistols? Glock, Springfield, Smith's M&P, and FN-USA."

Thanks for the input Glock Doctor! Of those three I found the Glock 26, M&P9C and the FN the easiest to rack in the rental guns. Although a new M&P9C I tried to rack was really stiff....(break in needed)? Oh, and the brand new M&P9C had a different trigger in it. It was MUCH better than the rental gun.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Your stovepipes in the 45,were they ejection or feeding?If you're getting ejection stoppages in both of those you have strength problems and are inducing it.It sounds weird,but a 45 in those 2 guns are the least likely to jam due to limp wristing,the lighter weight of plastic will aggrevate it.The 9 and 40 are even worse due to them being a higher pressure round needing more of a stout hold on the frame.You can spring them down a little but then you're increasing felt recoil and frame battering in general,some external hammer guns like a 1911 can be resprung to control rearward and forward slide speed but the majority of other guns don't lend themselves to this.

For out of the box,most dependable pistol out there,you're going to have to look at HK.The P2000 is about the smallest they make,but with compacts you also get a stronger recoil spring assembly.The P30 is about mid sized with the USP compacts right in the same neighborhood.If you can shoot 45s now,I'd look into the USP or HK45 in the compact version,their recoil spring assemblies (in all HKs) are a little stiff off the bat but loosen up in few boxws of ammo or just lock the slide open a few days.They aren't quite as smooth as a Beretta but they aren't hard to rack at all,and the system really tames the recoil hit you feel.

If you talk to HK's armorers,and I would suspect others of plastic guns,they will tell you they rarely see a 45 in for feeding and ejection issues,it's the 9s and 40s that people are limpwristing or they're shooting bunnyfart loads in them.That is one problem with HK,they are made for real ammo and if you want to download the ammo as in target or bullseye,you need to respring the gun because they are built as a working man's gun.

I'm not a striker fired fan at all,but if I went that route I'd look at the M&P above all unless I wanted to spend the money on HK's older P7 line.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

rex said:


> Your stovepipes in the 45,were they ejection or feeding?If you're getting ejection stoppages in both of those you have strength problems and are inducing it.It sounds weird,but a 45 in those 2 guns are the least likely to jam due to limp wristing,the lighter weight of plastic will aggrevate it.The 9 and 40 are even worse due to them being a higher pressure round needing more of a stout hold on the frame.You can spring them down a little but then you're increasing felt recoil and frame battering in general,some external hammer guns like a 1911 can be resprung to control rearward and forward slide speed but the majority of other guns don't lend themselves to this.
> 
> For out of the box,most dependable pistol out there,you're going to have to look at HK.The P2000 is about the smallest they make,but with compacts you also get a stronger recoil spring assembly.The P30 is about mid sized with the USP compacts right in the same neighborhood.If you can shoot 45s now,I'd look into the USP or HK45 in the compact version,their recoil spring assemblies (in all HKs) are a little stiff off the bat but loosen up in few boxws of ammo or just lock the slide open a few days.They aren't quite as smooth as a Beretta but they aren't hard to rack at all,and the system really tames the recoil hit you feel.
> 
> ...


The Colt issues were a mix of ejection and failure to feed, (mostly failure to feed). Those guns were sensitive to hollow points.

I am going to rent the HK last since it is a rental facility pretty far from the house.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Gotcha.If they are older Colts with unthroated barrels that may be it,or the extractor may be of the A1 variety without the entry/exit cuts,or they just may need to be tuned.Colt was pretty good about getting the extractor tension in a workable range unlike some other copies but stuff happens.

In the GC,if you have the light target recoil spring in it the hotter ammo can cause the slide to outrun the mag spring.Normally you get a bolt over base jam where the bullet hits the ramp but the bottom of the slide (stripper/disconnector rail) is holding the lower end of the case body in the mag.If it's close to working the rim barely gets grabbed and nosedives the round into the ramp.

If you have more than 3000 rounds through either replace the recoil springs,that's not too bad a count for target loads but anything above the original ball load has already killed it.That's the one thing that bugs me on 1911s,they eat springs unless you convert to Wilson's new flat wire and recoil guide assembly.That's also one good thing about the HKs,the USP is good for 12-15,000 rounds.That works out good because it is a small job to replace them being a captured spring system.I haven't played with the P series but the USP is set up that way.

Keep us informed how things go,and a belated welcome to the forum.


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## thepozr (Jan 7, 2014)

I have the Beretta Storm sub-compact. It's the .40, not the 9, but I haven't had any issues at all with it. Put about 200 rounds through it and haven't had any issues at all. I would assume the 9 would be the same. I really like shooting it. Hope you find what you're looking for.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

rex said:


> Gotcha.If they are older Colts with unthroated barrels that may be it,or the extractor may be of the A1 variety without the entry/exit cuts,or they just may need to be tuned.Colt was pretty good about getting the extractor tension in a workable range unlike some other copies but stuff happens.
> 
> In the GC,if you have the light target recoil spring in it the hotter ammo can cause the slide to outrun the mag spring.Normally you get a bolt over base jam where the bullet hits the ramp but the bottom of the slide (stripper/disconnector rail) is holding the lower end of the case body in the mag.If it's close to working the rim barely gets grabbed and nosedives the round into the ramp.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the welcome Rex. You described the jam really really well. Most of the loads were home cooked and fairly hot, some were target. Both guns were built in the 80's. Both have been sold. Actually the Gold Cup was the last gun I ever sold from my home. I remember the guy that bought it. He was a beast of a man. His silhouette filled my kitchen door when he walked in. I was thinking O-M-G I am freak'in doomed. He's gonna kill me and steal my gun. Last time I ever put an ad in the paper.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Haaa,that was funny.

I forgot one thing which I'm sure you discovered,some guns recoil and behave just the opposite of what you would think and expect.My USP 45 fells like a powderfuff load in a 9mm,but my boy bought an EAA plastic 40 that really shocked me.The few 40s I've shot were pretty snappy but this thing was very mellow and a nice shooter.I can't remember the exact model but if I see him later I'll ask.It's something like a PO-1 or similar,staggered mag with a barrel in the low 4" I belive.I was really impressed with the gun and EAA has had a pretty good track record with their guns.He got a real good deal on it but I still think they go for about $450 or so.I'll let you know when I see him.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Your question is about Glocks and their reliability. In my experience, they are among the best of the lot. I own nine currently and have owned an additional three others. My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 G23's. It has had exactly two failures... stovepipes, both. This was early on and I know what caused these malfunctions. Other than that, this gun has been 100% reliable with everything sent down its barrel. I have other Glocks that this can also be said about. Am I a Glock fanboy. Nope. I just admire things that do what they are suppose to do.

Are Glocks 100% reliable across the board. I rather doubt that. But of the semi-autos I own, they are the most reliable of the lot. Are they susceptible to the same problems as other semi-autos? Of course they are. They're mechanical devices. Their beauty is in their simplicity.

If you're looking for that pistol that is going to have "ZERO malfunctions" as you stated, you're never going to purchase one. If, on the other hand, you want one that is close to that criteria then there are candidates from which to choose.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

My very first handgun I bought at age 21 in 1993 was a Glock 17. Piece of garbage. Even sent it back to Glock 1x - it never ran right. However, I knew that waas unusual. I owned 4 other Glocks afterwards. Suffered non stop ejected cases from the last one, but all the others ran right. However, Glocks can have problems like any other gun. They are not immune to it.

I want to caution the original poster that he is basing his decision on the reliability of range rental guns. That is a bad idea. Range rental guns are often abused, played with in unknown ways by various renters. And, they are not kept the cleanest. Also, guns do have a maintenance schedule - with recoil springs, and sometimes other parts (Beretta 92 for example - the trigger spring should be changed every 5k). Rental guns usually just keep getting rented until they stop working. THEN they look into why and start changing springs.


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

^Very well said, sir!^


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

"(Beretta 92 for example - the trigger spring should be changed every 5k)."

Are you figgin kidding me?Is this all or just "recent" ones.I thought the locking block was the weak link,mine is from just before the bad run of slides years ago.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

rex said:


> "(Beretta 92 for example - the trigger spring should be changed every 5k)."
> 
> Are you figgin kidding me?Is this all or just "recent" ones.I thought the locking block was the weak link,mine is from just before the bad run of slides years ago.


No, all Beretta 92s.. Recoil spring every 3-5k and the trigger return spring every 5k.

It may last 2x that. It may get to 15k... But the day it breaks when you last expect it, you are gonna wish you changed it.

The newer trigger springs in the past few years are actually a little sturdier. So, it may last longer now than a Beretta 92 would have 20 years ago. But, I change mine every 5k rounds.

Changing the slide stop spring and trigger bar spring periodically is not a bad idea either...

More frequent recoil spring changes will increase the life of the locking block. Current third generation locking blocks are rated to 20k rounds. But I have seen a lot of posts on various forums of people having them break at just a few rounds past 20k. I think changing the block at 15k is a smarter thing to do. A broken locking block sometimes breaks the frame (not always), making the gun a paper weight. And, once a 92 breaks a block, they tend to break faster and more often for some strange reason.

And finally, I hate my damn auto correct on my iPad after typing this post out


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Lots of great stuff here guys! Thanks for all the advice. I will lower my expectations a bit. And yes I am basing my assumptions off of dirty, worn, range guns with cheap reloaded ammo.

The Glock angle of the question came up because I have never considered one before. I keep running into people who promote the weapons reliability. I am getting older and can no longer outrun the threat or overpower an attacker. So more than ever I feel the need to carry again and the gun has to work.

I fully intend to take classes with the weapon I choose to carry. I want to train in an adrenaline charged state so that I can be sure my hands will work in a crisis. Right now I slow WAY down when in crisis.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Cheap, reloaded ammo can screw up any gun. That right there is problem number one.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Your question is about Glocks and their reliability. In my experience, they are among the best of the lot. I own nine currently and have owned an additional three others. My primary carry gun is one of my gen3 G23's. It has had exactly two failures... stovepipes, both. This was early on and I know what caused these malfunctions. Other than that, this gun has been 100% reliable with everything sent down its barrel. I have other Glocks that this can also be said about. Am I a Glock fanboy. Nope. I just admire things that do what they are suppose to do.
> 
> Are Glocks 100% reliable across the board. I rather doubt that. But of the semi-autos I own, they are the most reliable of the lot. Are they susceptible to the same problems as other semi-autos? Of course they are. They're mechanical devices. They beauty is in their simplicity.
> 
> If you're looking for that pistol that is going to have "ZERO malfunctions" as you stated, you never going to purchase one. If, on the other hand, you want one that is close to that criteria then there are candidates from which to choose.


What you are saying I am hearing a lot. That their failure rate is the lowest but nothing is perfect. For all of my life I have tuned out everything Glock. With glazed eyes and ears I have ignored other peoples comments, gun reviews, praises or criticisms.... I just tuned it out. I am new to the forums so there is a lot I have never even heard before.

Now I am listening to what people have to say. Not just what I want to hear.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

To the OP. You might want to consider some of the most recent pistols Ruger has brought out as well.


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## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

Don't know if you would consider it a sub, but my 2 Taurus G2's have over 800 rounds through them with zero malfunctions! Accuracy is far better than I expected.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

berettatoter said:


> To the OP. You might want to consider some of the most recent pistols Ruger has brought out as well.


A Ruger SR9C has been in the rental rotation as well. It is an outstanding pistol.

Have not tried a Taurus.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> What you are saying I am hearing a lot. That their failure rate is the lowest but nothing is perfect. For all of my life I have tuned out everything Glock. With glazed eyes and ears I have ignored other peoples comments, gun reviews, praises or criticisms.... I just tuned it out. I am new to the forums so there is a lot I have never even heard before.
> 
> Now I am listening to what people have to say. Not just what I want to hear.


Good for you. And this is exactly what you want to do in order to form a valid and solid decision. Just remember that people have their own opinions and experiences, like you've clearly seen here, and they may vary quite a bit. This is all well and good. I will say this about the Glock. If you buy one that seems not to be quite right, and I have done this recently, they are very easy and inexpensive to correct. The same can be said about some other guns but Glock does seem to have a corner on this one.

Take a look at the Smith and Wesson M&P series. Try to handle and fire one if you can. They are fine pieces and _very _good shooters... very accurate. They are more complex than the Glock and not as easy to detail strip. They are also a little more involved to clean (not bad, they just seem to have a few more nooks and crannies).

I mentioned that my chosen primary carry gun is a Glock; a gen3 G23. It has been 100% reliable since its second stovepipe. Both stovepipes were caused by something. The first was me shooting it from a rest with the magazine base plate resting on a block of rug covered wood. Under recoil the magazine was driven a little further up in its well and force a stovepipe. The second time was when a friend was shooting it. She was tea cupping the gun and a bit of limp wristing forced a stovepipe. That's it. Nothing has happened since. I have modified this gun to my specific needs and requirements and it goes where I go most all the time I am armed.... which is nearly all of the time.

I have some other guns in my carry stable which have been flawless as well. Lots of good stuff out there, so take your time and do your homework. The best gun is the one that works best for you.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Good for you. And this is exactly what you want to do in order to form a valid and solid decision. Just remember that people have their own opinions and experiences, like you've clearly seen here, and they may vary quite a bit. This is all well and good. I will say this about the Glock. If you buy one that seems not to be quite right, and I have done this recently, they are very easy and inexpensive to correct. The same can be said about some other guns but Glock does seem to have a corner on this one.
> 
> Take a look at the Smith and Wesson M&P series. Try to handle and fire one if you can. They are fine pieces and _very _good shooters... very accurate. They are more complex than the Glock and not as easy to detail strip. They are also a little more involved to clean (not bad, they just seem to have a few more nooks and crannies).
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the good stuff to think about. More and more my thinking is changing. That the gun needs to be as simple as possible. And after having seen how I handle myself in a crisis...how difficult it can be to use my hands...I do need a weapon that is as simple to use as possible...with a failure rate as low as possible. I want every possible edge without adding in potential problems. I like well crafted, all steel guns with lots of buttons. I admire the beauty and craftsmanship but I need a survival tool, not a range toy.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> Thanks for all the good stuff to think about. More and more my thinking is changing. That the gun needs to be as simple as possible. And after having seen how I handle myself in a crisis...how difficult it can be to use my hands...I do need a weapon that is as simple to use as possible...with a failure rate as low as possible. I want every possible edge without adding in potential problems. I like well crafted, all steel guns with lots of buttons. I admire the beauty and craftsmanship *but I need a survival tool, not a range toy.*


This, should be your goal. As for simplicity of operation, I agree completely. I want the least amount of things in my way if and when I have to pull that gun and use it. Of course, the best reliability I can acquire is number one. There are a lot of good choices out there so please do take your time and don't rush in. People here have given you their ideas and that is all well and good. However, you must do the work and decide what is best for you. For what it's worth, here are the three most important criteria in order, for a defensive handgun;


Reliability. If it doesn't go bang when it must, everything else is moot.
Practical accuracy. This is the ability of the shooter/gun combination to deliver rounds to target accurately, consistently, and confidently. If you can't do this, the next item is meaningless.
Power. The ability of the chosen caliber and load to do sufficient damage to an assailant to stop his attack as quickly as possible.

Start reading some gun carry magazines along with perusing gun websites to develop a list of candidate sidearms. You should only select guns that have a proven track record and are quality products. This is not the easiest thing when starting out doing something like this with little or no background. Watch out for the BS you are sure to received from gun show and gun shop people as well as those on the net.

Next, visit a major gun show or a number of gun shops to work your list down to a solid list of candidates. Then try your best to visit ranges where you can shoot the ones on your list to see which ones feel the best, are the most natural in your hand, and with which you can do a good job of sending rounds to targets. Your goal is to narrow that list down to only a few guns from which to take your final decision. Then do some real analytical research on those guns to see which one or ones come out on top. This can all actually be a fun process so try to think of it as this.

Good luck in your search.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Thanks SoutherBoy!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> Thanks SoutherBoy!


You're welcome. BTW, I forgot to mention something right up your alley since your question only addressed the 9mm. I have four Glocks in 9mm: a gen3 G26, a gen3 G19, a gen3 G17, and a gen4 G17. All have been exceptional. I have been shooting my new gen4 G17 more than any of the others lately and it has not had one hiccup. Just thought you might want to know.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

KeithC. said:


> (The Shield is hard to rack by the way).


You might want to try this option.......
Sling Shot Slide Racking Method - YouTube


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Cait43 said:


> You might want to try this option.......
> Sling Shot Slide Racking Method - YouTube


Thanks Cait43


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## ArmyCop (May 7, 2006)

TAPnRACK said:


> Yes, you must have missed that thread... no gun is above having a malfunction.
> 
> On the bright side, most malfunctions are caused by the user or ammo selection. Partially seated mags, limp wristing, short stroking the slide while chambering, dirty feed ramp, dirty gun... are some common reasons for malfunctions.
> 
> Glocks are not immune.


Part of my reason's for going to revolvers for defense. Good comments, thanks.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

ArmyCop said:


> Part of my reason's for going to revolvers for defense. Good comments, thanks.


Thank you ArmyCop. Oddly, that is always in the back of my mind when I shop for guns. I carried a backup S&W Bodyguard Airweight .38 for years. I knew it would always work and it would work in a panic.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

If revolvers really were better then I'd still be carrying this ~

http://imageshack.com/a/img716/7199/bd7j.jpg

(And I'm not!)


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Another big Glock fan here, but even though mine have been near-perfect, I have seen a very few that were problematic.

The G26 subcompact 9mm is among the best of a very fine lineup of 9mm Glocks. In a discussion I've had several times, online and off, if asked to pick a single 9mm based on reliability and suitability for concealed carry, the G26 would be it. The G19 compact is enough larger to be easier to manipulate and shoot well, but for some folks, the size (or circumstances) can make it more difficult to conceal than a G26, so the baby Glock is the best, in my opinion.

I've voted with my wallet on this subject -- twice (Gen3 and Gen4). Still have them, and they've been flawless.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Beretta=Dependable, any Beretta in my possession I'd stake my life on for it's reliability. If they weren't I wouldn't own them. S&W, Glock, H&K, Walther, etc..... all have a superb track record for reliability. Next question is which one fits and you shoot the best?


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Glock Doctor said:


> You have, yet, to see a Glock owner complain about reliability issues! Hell, I own three Glock pistols. In spite of the fact that I purchased each of them brand new, NONE OF THEM worked as they should have on the day that I brought each of them home - None of them!
> 
> I was already a decent gunsmith before I became involved with Glocks. After I started having really serious RTB problems with my first two G-21's I was forced to bypass Glock's pure bullcrap factory tech support, and figure out how to fix my new Glock pistols all by myself.
> 
> ...


I decided to search for Glock threads that expressed problems....HOLY COW! Where have I been? A lot of issues with the Gen 4 G19's. Have they got them all fixed or is the Gen 3 a better bet?


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

denner said:


> Beretta=Dependable, any Beretta in my possession I'd stake my life on for it's reliability. If they weren't I wouldn't own them. S&W, Glock, H&K, Walther, etc..... all have a superb track record for reliability. Next question is which one fits and you shoot the best?


Of all the guns I have tried this month the Beretta Storm is my absolute favorite! I just love to shoot it. Can't put it down.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

DJ Niner said:


> Another big Glock fan here, but even though mine have been near-perfect, I have seen a very few that were problematic.
> 
> The G26 subcompact 9mm is among the best of a very fine lineup of 9mm Glocks. In a discussion I've had several times, online and off, if asked to pick a single 9mm based on reliability and suitability for concealed carry, the G26 would be it. The G19 compact is enough larger to be easier to manipulate and shoot well, but for some folks, the size (or circumstances) can make it more difficult to conceal than a G26, so the baby Glock is the best, in my opinion.
> 
> I've voted with my wallet on this subject -- twice (Gen3 and Gen4). Still have them, and they've been flawless.


DJ Niner,

Thanks for the input on the 26. Each time I go to the range I try it out just one more time. And each time I shoot it a little bit better than the time before. I don't like it yet but I am developing a lot of respect for it. I keep mixing sub compacts with compacts as I try out new guns....which is not really fair. The compacts always shoot better for me and they are far more comfortable and fun to shoot. (Although I can now shoot that 26 as well as the larger compacts I've tried).

I think you might have hit the nail on the head with your suggestion, since in reality, I am looking for a permanent replacement for a S&W Bodyguard. I want a new core carry gun that I can always have with me and I want to become proficient with it.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> I decided to search for Glock threads that expressed problems....HOLY COW! Where have I been? A lot of issues with the Gen 4 G19's. Have they got them all fixed or is the Gen 3 a better bet?


From what I've heard, the problems have been corrected for the gen4's. I have three of them and not one has had any failures.


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## DWARREN123 (May 11, 2006)

I do not know about the compact model but my Sig 226 is the easiest 9mm I have found to rack the slide on. Also with the Short Reset Trigger it is a great trigger system.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

KeithC. said:


> I decided to search for Glock threads that expressed problems....HOLY COW! Where have I been? A lot of issues with the Gen 4 G19's. Have they got them all fixed or is the Gen 3 a better bet?


Before I begin let's try to put this discussion into its proper perspective:

Ever since I, first, went onto Glock Talk the board has been a mixture of different Glock owners making entirely contradictory statements about the performance of their Glock pistols - Entirely contradictory. One owner will say, '_My Glock doesn't work; and, worse, Glock, Smyrna hasn't done me any good_'; and another owner will say, '_My Glock is the best pistol I've ever owned; and the factory has been, 'golden' with me_'. THIS is the Internet! In order to finally (if ever) arrive at the truth it becomes necessary to wade through a veritable solar burst of, 'cyberspace noise'.

Personally, I have reason to believe that as many as 15%, or more, of all brand new Glocks do NOT perform correctly and up to specification (or the designer's original intent) immediately after they are purchased; and, yes, I've read printed statements - one of them from Smyrna, itself - to substantiate this opinion.

Generally speaking, 'What' will internet gun forums tell you? The broad conclusion is that far too many brand new Glock pistols do not perform up to the purchaser's (reasonable) expectations of what a brand new pistol should be. Neither am I surprised that this thread, itself, is no exception!

Now, you ask whether or not the problems with 4th generation G-19's have been corrected, and whether or not 3rd generation Glocks (G-19's) might, also, be involved in the problems about which you have been reading? My answers: There's a lot more Glock models than just G-19's involved in these problems; and, yes, recently produced 3rd generation Glock pistols are also involved. (One of the things you need to appreciate is that Glock, GmbH has changed - and is currently continuing to change - many of their manufacturing techniques. (Which is nothing new for Glocks!)

What do I think is the most practical way to approach purchasing a brand new Glock pistol? (Remember I carry an early model, low serial number G-21 everyday.) I think buying a new Glock is, something of, a crapshoot. You put your money down, and hope for the best. Sometimes things work out; and the new Glock runs well; and, at other times, the, 'turn of the cards' works against you. THIS has, certainly, been my own personal experience; and I've got a troublesome, 'P' prefix, 3rd generation G-19 presently sitting inside my gun safe to validate this opinion.

Broadly stated: There are brand new Glocks pistols that work; and there are other brand new Glock pistols that do not. Me personally? I will never purchase a brand new Glock, again. Life is too short; I'm too old; and I really don't need the aggravation. If I want to gamble I'll drive over to Bethlehem, PA and visit The Sands beautiful casino complex. At least this way, if I lose, I'll still have had as good a time for the lost money as possible; (and I won't have a constant reminder of my bad luck sitting in the gun safe to goad me every time I pull the door open).

If I had to choose only one word in English language to describe the performance of Glock pistols that word would be, INCONSISTENT; and, yes, I'm certain many other Glock owners would disagree with me; but, again, that's the Internet!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Glock Doctor;

Of the nine Glocks I currently own, my new gen4 G17 had the worse trigger and for my specific requirements, required the most attention to its internals. Now I do check my guns carefully when I buy them. In fact on the day I bought this G17, the salesman (at a gun shop) laid out three new and boxed gen4 G17's for me to check out. Perhaps I was loony that morning because the one I bought felt okay in the store, but very shortly there after, I must have awakened because the trigger was most definitely not to my liking not long after arriving home. The problem was in the first stage of the trigger and I could easily feel the bump on the outside of the trigger bar safety block cam contacting the right slide rail and the feeling was not at all smooth. Gritty and what is best described as a "dragging" feel was what I felt.

I first polished the internals very nicely and to a nice sheen. That didn't work. So next, I took a Dremel to that bump and worked it down some then re-polished it. Still didn't work. On close examination, I thought I noticed that the OEM gen4 trigger bar that came with my G17 had its safety block cam canted a little to the outside, which would put additional friction and drag on the right slide rail. So I compared the trigger feel to my other gen4 Glocks (G21 and G22) and the others felt fine. I ordered another gen4 trigger bar, polished it, and it didn't make any difference. Still had the problem.

Then I robbed a trigger bar from my other gen3 G23 and installed it in the G17. That worked beautifully; problem solved. So I ordered another gen3 trigger bar, polished that one, and put it in the G17, after removing the gen3 trigger bar I had robbed and returning it to its gen3 G23 from whence it came. The trigger on that gun is now quite good for SD work, home or carry. When I bought it the measured trigger pull weight was 6 pounds 8 ounces. It comes in at 4 pounds 9 ounces with its current configuration (the gen3 trigger bar, a 3.5 Glock connector, and a 6 pound trigger spring plus a nice polishing job). 

What I have noticed with Glocks is that not one of them feels quite the same when just out of the box. Every one I have measured has had a different trigger weight and certainly not what appears on the case label. I suspect this is due in large part to the stamped steel parts, the polymer frame, and the lack of machining on much of the gun. But at least with after market parts, many of which are Glock, modifications can be made to get something that works for the individual.

You referenced GockTalk.com. You may also notice on that site that there are a group of members who are steadfast against making any modifications. I am of the opinion that if something is not quite to your liking but is easily addressed, the do it. I have four S&W M&P's, three of which are centerfire. All of those three have had modifications done to them to meet my specific wants and needs. No harm done there and I have what I want. In the end, that's really all that matters.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

SB, You and I are definitely, 'old school'.

You were lucky with that trigger bar. I've gone through as many as three or four before finally finding one that wasn't too twisted along it's length to work smoothly. With Glock, GmbH/Inc. 'OEM' can mean the part was made by any number of outside contract suppliers; so, yes, there's going to be mechanical variance. The only question is, '_How much?_'

Another thing some, 'Glock doctors' do is to take a Dremel and a stone to, 'break' the trigger bar's edges. So far I haven't had to do this; and switching bars has always gotten me where I want to be; but I know Glock owners who have. The trigger break on any factory Glock isn't going to be consistent. On my own pistols I get breaks measuring between 4.9 and 5.2 lbs. I use a Lyman gauge and always measure from the middle of the trigger's face.

Other things I do to improve a Glock's trigger include: using 6 lbs trigger and striker springs, installing a trigger stop, a '3.5 lbs' connector, and (because I have the older, Tenifer-treated, hardened steel, internal components) I give everything a bright mirror shine. What have I found to be the biggest impediment to having a smooth Glock trigger? That would be the striker safety and its associated TB cam. So, ....... your initial instincts and attention to this area were only too correct.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Glock Doctor said:


> SB, You and I are definitely, 'old school'.
> 
> You were lucky with that trigger bar. I've gone through as many as three or four before finally finding one that wasn't too twisted along it's length to work smoothly. With Glock, GmbH/Inc. 'OEM' can mean the part was made by any number of outside contract suppliers; so, yes, there's going to be mechanical variance. The only question is, '_How much?_'
> 
> ...


"Old school" is good in so many things... as long as we remain open to new things coming down the pike. I also use a Lyman digital trigger gauge and measure from the middle of the trigger's face. I would bet that a lot of people measure from the tip, or close to it, in order to report a really light trigger.

I do concentrate on the striker safety block when polishing the internals along with the trigger bar safety block cam in order to improve smoothness in the trigger's first stage. Those parts plus the end of the trigger bar plus the connector get most of my attention. The best out of the box Glock trigger I have ever experienced in a new Glock was my second gen3 G23 that I bought in early 2008. Frankly, it was near perfect as it was for a Glock, though I did modify it to mirror my primary carry gen3 G23. Both of these guns come in at around 4 pounds 12-14 ounces. That's fine for me for a carry gun.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

"If I had to choose only one word in English language to describe the performance of Glock pistols that word would be, INCONSISTENT; and, yes, I'm certain many other Glock owners would disagree with me; but, again, that's the Internet! "

Thank you for so candidly sharing your experience. I find that very helpful. It sounded fair, balanced, and honest.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> "If I had to choose only one word in English language to describe the performance of Glock pistols that word would be, INCONSISTENT; and, yes, I'm certain many other Glock owners would disagree with me; but, again, that's the Internet! "
> 
> Thank you for so candidly sharing your experience. I find that very helpful. It sounded fair, balanced, and honest.


Everyone has their own experiences. Of all of my semi-autos, my Glocks have been the most reliable. There are a few others in my collection that come close and one or two that tie this record, but in general that has been my experience with them.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Everyone has their own experiences. Of all of my semi-autos, my Glocks have been the most reliable. There are a few others in my collection that come close and one or two that tie this record, but in general that has been my experience with them.


You guys have given me much to think about and for that I am grateful. Your sharing your experience without an agenda and that means a lot to me.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> You guys have given me much to think about and for that I am grateful. Your sharing your experience without an agenda and that means a lot to me.


Thank you. There are a lot of good people on this website who are more than willing to help others along with their questions and concerns. You will find that this is one of the most civil gun-related websites out there, which for me is very refreshing.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Thank you. There are a lot of good people on this website who are more than willing to help others along with their questions and concerns. You will find that this is one of the most civil gun-related websites out there, which for me is very refreshing.


Your most welcome SouthernBoy. I also find it very refreshing that people are allowed to express their point of view without getting attacked in the process.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

KeithC. said:


> Your most welcome SouthernBoy. I also find it very refreshing that people are allowed to express their point of view without getting attacked in the process.


Couldn't agree more. Here's an example of how ridiculous some websites can be/get. I posted this thread last September about what I thought was a very innocent and interesting thing I had seen at a range I frequent. Check out some of the responses I received. I couldn't believe them. Just amazing to me.

Never know what you're going to encounter at the range

Now I'm a pretty even keeled guy but I have to tell you, this really got my dander up. I was pissed to say the least. Some sage people have said repeatedly that before you put something down on paper or in a message that is going to transverse the internet, you may want to read it first and imagine how it might appear to others. I think they were on to something.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Sorry that happened to you SouthernBoy...that was really uncalled for.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

It was uncalled for but it doesn't bother me. I think of it as being petty and small minded. I pick my friends and those people are not among that group. One of them is so entrenched in himself that one time I tripped him up on something when he was trying to chastise me for referring to an attorney who had told me something which this guy thought was absurd. I turned the tables on him and he still stayed entrenched.

Keyboard commandos. People who like to play superman behind a keyboard but in person would most likely never say the things they post on forums. Little minds that creep out when they can't be seen.


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