# FL CWL Holder Stores Gun In Diaper Bag - 6 Year Old Finds Gun and Fires Shot



## sdh91 (Dec 12, 2015)

Not really sure where to start on this one... So he goes through the 3 hours of CWL training FL requires, submits his application, obtains a CWL and decides its OK to store his pistol in his girlfriends diaper bag while at the park.

How do you deal with this type of ignorance? Before the permit is issued through more training/education or after the incident occurs through a stiff penalty/sentence?

 6-year old boy finds gun in diaper bag fires shot in tampa park


----------



## RobertS (Jan 7, 2016)

And he (the boy's father) attempts to throw it away, prompting a tampering with evidence charge.


----------



## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

*** Edited by Moderator -- stay on topic. ***


----------



## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

*** Edited by Moderator -- stay on topic. ***


----------



## sdh91 (Dec 12, 2015)

I see a few posts have been edited by the moderator. I sincerely would like to hear opinions of how help reduce incidents of this in the future. 

*Is the answer more education, is 3 hours of training enough to obtain a CWL? Personally, I think you could double the training FL requires and end up with safer, more prepared CWL holders ( 2-hours on gun safety, 2-hours on legal implications, 2 hours on the range.). Not saying it would stop someone from making such a poor decision. Would stiffer penalties make people think twice about their decisions?


----------



## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

sdh91 said:


> I see a few posts have been edited by the moderator. I sincerely would like to hear opinions of how help reduce incidents of this in the future.
> 
> *Is the answer more education, is 3 hours of training enough to obtain a CWL? Personally, I think you could double the training FL requires and end up with safer, more prepared CWL holders ( 2-hours on gun safety, 2-hours on legal implications, 2 hours on the range.). Not saying it would stop someone from making such a poor decision. Would stiffer penalties make people think twice about their decisions?


Do you know how many Florida CCW holders there are? Approximately 1,384,756. One individual does something extremely stupid and it's an issue of Florida's lack of CCW training? Speculation, but do we know this individuals previous training or other qualifications, or do we just assume? I'd first ask, is this sort of thing happening with pattern or great frequency with the other million or so Florida CCW holders?

How about the other responsible million or so having no such issues. It must be very satisfactory training looking at the numbers if you ask me. I'd first start with some statistics before making suggestions concerning more training or lack thereof. I've been through Florida's training and it is very sufficient in my view.

Florida has penalties such as this one: 790.174 "Safe storage of firearms required" and 784.05"Culpable Negligence." It looks like this idiot will never have the priviledge to CCW again. Culpable negligence and tampering with evidence convictions should prevent that and perhaps other charges. According to the facts in this case looks like he will be facing a felony of the third degree. If the DA wants him, they got him, or he's gonna need a dream team.


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with Denner... all the training in the world won't prevent a careless gun owners from making careless decisions.

When one makes the decision to carry, the firearm must remain within their control AT ALL TIMES.


----------



## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

TAPnRACK said:


> Agree with Denner... all the training in the world won't prevent a careless gun owners from making careless decisions.
> 
> When one makes the decision to carry, the firearm must remain within their control AT ALL TIMES.


And, for those that may not know, TAPnRACK has very high credentials in this area of topic and if he disagreed with my humble opinion, I would certainly re-think it.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

denner said:


> Do you know how many Florida CCW holders there are? Approximately 1,384,756. One individual does something extremely stupid and it's an issue of Florida's lack of CCW training? Speculation, but do we know this individuals previous training or other qualifications, or do we just assume? I'd first ask, is this sort of thing happening with pattern or great frequency with the other million or so Florida CCW holders?
> 
> How about the other responsible million or so having no such issues. It must be very satisfactory training looking at the numbers if you ask me. I'd first start with some statistics before making suggestions concerning more training or lack thereof. I've been through Florida's training and it is very sufficient in my view.
> 
> Florida has penalties such as this one: 790.174 "Safe storage of firearms required" and it looks like this idiot will never have the priviledge to CCW again. Culpable negligence and tampering with evidence convictions should prevent that and perhaps other charges.


Right on there brother! Couldn't have said it any better. Just because someone passes a road test doesn't make them a good driver.


----------



## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Perhaps new CCW holders are nervous at first, and need to practice carrying UNLOADED for a week or two.

Learn the holster type that works for you. Learn to properly dress. Gain some confidence with the gun - BEFORE you load and carry.

Work on safe and effective ways to handle.

And if you still have problems ..... DON'T CARRY. Its not for you.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

CW said:


> *Perhaps new CCW holders are nervous at first, and need to practice carrying UNLOADED for a week or two.*
> 
> Learn the holster type that works for you. Learn to properly dress. Gain some confidence with the gun - BEFORE you load and carry.
> 
> ...


I would not like this at all. Suppose someone is in danger, threats, attacks, etc., and they need to have that carry permit and their gun with them at all times, loaded and ready to go?

I am all in favor of getting as much training as one needs to both carry safety and to use that firearm effectively should the need arise. There are no fixed or pat answers to this. The man made a VERY bad mistake and deserves to be punished for his actions. That gun should have been where it is suppose to be... on his person, not in some diaper bag.


----------



## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

The couple weeks of carrying unloaded is part of the training. 
Sometimes you have to acclimate to the new normal. 

My first loaded concealed carry was a little spooky to me.
You may think everyone is looking at you, or you worry about printing....etc.

Dry runs help build confidence yet offer a better margin of safety. 
Perhaps those with experience should take newbies on a walks through the mall to help them gain confidence.
And afterward a de-brief is helpful.


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

It comes down to responsible ownership... if you choose to have a firearm, one should want to be familiar and comfortable in safely operating/carrying it. If you choose to carry, gain as much information and training as possible... that's the responsible thing to do.

As far as mandating such training... that's a topic that's debatable. A responsible gun owner should WANT to be as proficient as possible and learn as much about gun safety as possible. Unfortunately many gun owners pass the basic CPL/CCW class (very brief overview of gun safety/operation) and call it good. Their training and knowledge base ends there... and that's a shame.

Learning takes time and professional training costs money... too many underestimate the value of both.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

"Denner" said it best:


> Do you know how many Florida CCW holders there are? Approximately 1,384,756. ONE INDIVIDUAL does something extremely stupid and it's an issue of Florida's lack of CCW training? Speculation, but do we know this individuals previous training or other qualifications, or do we just assume? I'd first ask, is this sort of thing happening with pattern or great frequency with the other million or so Florida CCW holders?


I don't have all the statistics, but I'd be willing to guess that of all those who have concealed weapons permits nationwide there are very few incidents such as this happening. If there were you can bet that the media with it's anti-gun bias would be relentless, as if they are not already in condemning those who choose to legally carry concealed handguns. But all they've got at least in this case is ONE out of 1,384,756. Yet they are still making a big issue out of it. The odds of being struck by lightning are ONE in 1,190,000 --www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml. I'd say overall we are a very safe and responsible group of individuals.


----------



## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

desertman said:


> I don't have all the statistics, but I'd be willing to guess that of all those who have concealed weapons permits nationwide there are very few incidents such as this happening. If there were you can bet that the media with it's anti-gun bias would be relentless, as if they are not already in condemning those who choose to legally carry concealed handguns. But all they've got at least in this case is ONE out of 1,384,756. Yet they are still making a big issue out of it. The odds of being struck by lightning are ONE in 1,190,000 --www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml. I'd say overall we are a very safe and responsible group of individuals.


rayer:

Oh, another little tidbit: "During over two decades, from October 1, 1987 to May 31, 2014, Florida has issued permits to more than 2,031,106(wikipedia numbers) since adopting its law in 1987, with the average person holding a permit for more than a decade. About 0.006 percent have had their permits revoked for any type of firearms related violation, the most common being accidentally carrying a concealed handgun into a gun-free zone such as a school or an airport, not threats or acts of violence. It is an annual rate of 0.0002 percent. It also notes that the already low rate of permits being revoked is also declining."


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

CW said:


> The couple weeks of carrying unloaded is part of the training.
> Sometimes you have to acclimate to the new normal.


I have mixed opinions on this for the reasons I already wrote. I think most people would just naturally move into the carrying aspect in a way which is comfortable to them. If that means that they would want to carry unloaded, or unchambered, that should be entirely up to them. For me, it was a no-brainer. I already had 27 years behind me with firearms experience before I received my state's shall issue permit (July 1995) so carrying with a loaded gun was no different than before I had a concealed carry permit.



CW said:


> My first loaded concealed carry was a little spooky to me.
> You may think everyone is looking at you, or you worry about printing....etc.


The day after I received my CHP (which took place on a Friday), I had to go to a bank to get Traveler's Cheques for a vacation trip. I admit to being a little self-conscious when sitting in the bank with my sidearm hidden from view but I quickly got over it. Funny thing, a customer at the gas station across the street was murdered the week before (stabbing).



CW said:


> Dry runs help build confidence yet offer a better margin of safety.
> Perhaps those with experience should take newbies on a walks through the mall to help them gain confidence.
> And afterward a de-brief is helpful.


Yes, such walk-alongs can be very helpful to those new to all of this and is actually done numerous times in my state by those who carry. However, most of the time this is for those who choose to open carry instead of conceal carry.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

denner said:


> rayer:
> 
> Oh, another little tidbit: "During over two decades, from October 1, 1987 to May 31, 2014, Florida has issued permits to more than 2,031,106(wikipedia numbers) since adopting its law in 1987, with the average person holding a permit for more than a decade. About 0.006 percent have had their permits revoked for any type of firearms related violation, the most common being accidentally carrying a concealed handgun into a gun-free zone such as a school or an airport, not threats or acts of violence. It is an annual rate of 0.0002 percent. It also notes that the already low rate of permits being revoked is also declining."


Unfortunately the national news media and the Democratic Party has an agenda to abolish the 2nd Amendment. They could care less about statistics that contradict them. They will use any means necessary to further their goals. They are beyond reason. To most of us that have been in this fight understand, is that the 2nd Amendment is there to preserve our individual civil liberties from an oppressive over bearing government. To our adversaries it is the only amendment that stands in the way of enslaving us to a socialist society of which they control. Equally shared misery except for those who rule over us being the end result. That's what it's all about, it has nothing to do with crime or making us all safe. Every time there is a Democratic administration the United States of America takes another step toward socialism. Socialism thrives on an indigent population. Hence the need to import tens of millions of the world's indigent populations to our shores. We can not allow the United States of America to become the world's dumping ground or forever hold our peace.

Another reason is political retribution: What better way to punish your political enemies than to outlaw and criminalize what was once a lawful activity not to mention a basic civil right? Such as what has happened with the passage of New York's "Safe act" and similar legislation that either has passed or is currently pending in other jurisdictions. Which by the way are overwhelmingly run by Democrats. Is this the America we want, one that punishes the innocent for the acts committed by the guilty? That's what we're up against. No different than Nazi Germany. The $64,000 question is: What do they have in store for us next, once Constitutional Law has been successfully abolished either legislatively or through the courts? A terrifying proposition indeed.


----------



## sdh91 (Dec 12, 2015)

TAPnRACK said:


> A responsible gun owner should WANT to be as proficient as possible and learn as much about gun safety as possible. Unfortunately many gun owners pass the basic CPL/CCW class (very brief overview of gun safety/operation) and call it good. Their training and knowledge base ends there... and that's a shame. Learning takes time and professional training costs money... too many underestimate the value of both.


I think you hit the nail on the head and couldn't agree more. Thank you everyone for your insights and a productive discussion.


----------



## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

A responsible gun owner will seek training and seek to educate themselves.
Some of it is actually common sense, which you can try and instill, but can't really teach.
And, you can't MAKE someone learn/use common sense (unfortunately).


----------



## aarondhgraham (Mar 17, 2011)

> Would stiffer penalties make people think twice about their decisions?


In all of history they never have,,,
Well, maybe the ones that keep honest people honest.

Stiffer penalties only have the effect of,,,
Making the lawmakers feel they have done something positive.

Aarond

.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

BackyardCowboy said:


> A responsible gun owner will seek training and seek to educate themselves.
> Some of it is actually common sense, which you can try and instill, but can't really teach.
> *And, you can't MAKE someone learn/use common sense (unfortunately).*


That's for sure! And indeed as you say: "A responsible gun owner will seek training and seek to educate themselves."

Training can be a very subjective thing. How much training one requires depends on the individual. In many areas of the country guns are a way of life. Handling them in a safe and responsible manner becomes second nature even at an early age. Parents often take their kids out shooting on a regular basis. As more state's, (I hate to say this) ARE ALLOWING for concealed or open carry where it had never been commonplace before. There are more people getting weapon's permits who have never had any experience handling any type of firearm before. Is a 3 or 8 hour class adequate for those individuals? The question then becomes: How much training should those individuals be required to have before they can exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed right? And if that's the case that Constitutionally guaranteed right now becomes a privilege. That one must demonstrate to some bureaucrat has the proficiency to exercise. I'm not trying to argue for or against training I think it's a good thing. I'm looking at it from a Constitutionalist's, (of which I am), point of view. And of how this methodology could apply to the rest of the "Bill of Rights". For the record I have an Arizona Concealed Weapons Permit which is not required by law to carry either openly or concealed. I also have voluntarily attended firearms training facilities.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

aarondhgraham said:


> In all of history they never have,,,
> Well, maybe the ones that keep honest people honest.
> 
> Stiffer penalties only have the effect of,,,
> ...


Agreed! How in the world do you legislate against carelessness without any criminal intent? Everyone of us has probably at one time or the other done something that they later on regretted. Only to kick themselves in the ass thinking: Why the hell did I do that, or what was I thinking? I'm proud to say that I've never done it with firearms though.


----------

