# Tubular Bullets?



## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

Just back from the range where we got into a conversation about tubular bullets. That's right... bullets with a hole right thru the middle down the length of the bullet! Seems they use some kind of sabot device or a disc on the back of the bullet that is blown away when the bullet leaves the muzzle. Allegedly you can get amazing velocities, very flat trajectories, and interesting effects on impact. I'm sure I've read somewhere about 'cookie cutter' rounds that drill their way thru body armor. Any of you guys have personal experience of such munitions?


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

That defies everything I've ever learned about penetration.

The primary rule of penetration is to INCREASE sectional density, not DECREASE it!

Bob Wright


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

Bob Wright said:


> That defies everything I've ever learned about penetration.
> 
> The primary rule of penetration is to INCREASE sectional density, not DECREASE it!
> 
> Bob Wright


Hmmm... Not necessarily so, Bob. Isn't it possible that a fast tubular bullet will have more sectional density than a slow solid bullet? (Assuming sectional density is a product of mass, velocity, and contact footprint i.e. for any given energy level the smaller the footprint the greater the penetration... I think!  )


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

I would think too that'd it be really hard to stabilze it in flight?


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Is this the old straw through a potato theory?

WM


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

Wandering Man said:


> Is this the old straw through a potato theory?
> 
> WM


Well.... when it came down to trying to understand what Bob was saying about sectional density.... yes, pretty much. The directional stability point is right on the mark too. Manufacturing tolerances would have to be very tight.

But this isn't theoretical. Take a look on the web and you will see that it has been done. I just wondered if anyone on here knew a bit more or had actually conducted their own experiments.:toimonster:


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

Sectional density has nothing to do with velocity, its the same with a bullet at rest as it is in motion. That is, its the weight per square inch of a projectile, the weight distributed over an area. As a bullet expands on impact, it lowers its sectional density, decreasing penetration. That is why a non-expanding bullet will penetrate an animal completely, while an expanding bullet may not.

And, weight adds momentum, the tendency of an object in motion to remain in motion. Removing weight (making a tube out of a cylinder) reduces weight, and therefore, momentum.

Bob Wright

(Now I'll try to find the links)


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

Just did a brief search and came up with a reference to .30 caliber tubular bullets, Hebler style, they were called, and date to the 1890s. These were loaded in 1958 in cases marked "LC 58" but no firing data or records were found.

Noted at about the same time was a paper by Peyton Autry on Sectional Density.

Interesting.

Bob Wright


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

Still haven't come up with anything about tubular bullets. Tubular magazines are well discussed. One reference I did find was not tubular bullets at all but wadcutters. The writer referred to these as tubular rather than cylindrical.

Bob Wright


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

I found this under the ammunition collector's site:


> Another interesting load is the Ballistic Action Trauma (BAT) loads developed in Germany and currently in production for use in both Germany and Holland and perhaps other countries. These are solid copper alloy projectiles with a large hollow point filled with a plastic cap to aid feeding in an automatic pistol. (Figure 35). When fired, the hole through the bullet allows the barrel pressure to eject the plastic tip and the solid bullet body is designed for the ideal combination of penetration and stopping power
> 
> 
> > This bullet illustrated has a large hollow point filled with a plastic ogive for feeding purposes, with a narrow "tube" so that the powder charge blows away the nose of the bullet upon firing.
> ...


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

A patent which discusses some of the considerations...

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5515787-description.html


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

...and two items copied from http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5873.html. Note the references to these rounds not being available for civilian use which helps to explain why no one on here has any personal experience...

*Ken Cook01-28-2004, 09:51 AM*Originally posted by eda-koppo 
Tony:
There was another maker who had tried a copper tubular bullet with the core filled with plastic, which separated as the bullet left the barrel, but those don't appear to have ever made it to market.

I believe the one you're talking about is pictured below.

It was designed and manufactured in Germany and marketed in the US (I remember the ads from the back pages of Soldier of Fortune) in the late 80s and early 90s as I recall under the name "B.A.T. Round" which stood for "Ballistic Action Trauma. (Maybe it reads better in German?)

The idea was that the round would feed like ball, but on firing, as the bullet passed through and out the barrel, pressure behind the bullet would force the plastic insert out of it creating a large hollowpoint and a bullet that was roughly tubular in cross section.

*Ken Cook01-28-2004, 10:15 AM*The other type of round you may be referring to is the infamous "Cookie Cutter" round.

This round gained a certain understated noteriety after it's use against the Branch Davidians at Waco, Tx.

The round is basically a steel tube bonded inside of a gilding metal (mix of bronze and brass) jacket with a small plastic plug at the back end.

The purpose of this round is to defeat all levels of soft body armor by CUTTING it's way through rather than trying to push it's way through as a conventional bullet would.

They work exceptionally well and are thus banned for all but Federal Law Enforcement Officers and presumably, some Spec Ops applications. (I think we can safely assume the Delta guys at Waco would have been given access to this ammo if they wanted it.)

Interestingly enough, Precision Metallic Cartridge Company (PMC of Korea) came out with an economy version of this bullet and I believe the original inventor was involved in the commercial development and release. The ammunition was a one piece projectile with the aforementioned plastic plug in the base but was made entirely from cast zinc. This created an ultra fast, very flat shooting round that was only offered in .38 Special before the Feds yanked it off the market. (Seems they want to be able to penetrate our vests but think it would be bad if we could penetrate theirs. Go figure.)

At any rate, here's a picture of the Cookie Cutter round and a few other exotic 9mm rounds.

This picture and the one in the post above are taken from this EXCELLENT website and I highly recommend everyone interested in this thead take the time to go read and see. It's one of the best ammo pages I've ever seen.

(May take a minute to load, lots of pics.)

"Cookie Cutter" round is the first round on the left. _(Fig. 36?)_
http://cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm

_(I think that's me about done on tubular bullets now!  )_


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/cyclone.html


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

Well, Sir, if you're done on this subject, start another one equally as interesting!

Bob Wright


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## Stephen A. Camp (May 9, 2006)

Hello. The only tubular bullet I'm aware of is pictured below.









_These are from PMC and were called UltraMag. They were sold briefly in the '80's before their brass bullet design was banned as it could penetrate the Level II body armor worn by many law enforcement officers. As best as I can recall, the bullet weighed about 66 grains and was reported to hit about 1400 ft/sec from a 4" bbl. The ones I shot hit considerably lower than POA at other than contact distances. The hole in the bullet goes all the way through, but there is a polymer ball at the bottom so that gas pressure can build. I think that the idea is that the bullet cuts tissue it contacts but penetrates a few inches and begins tumbling. I have no further information on the round nor have I heard of anyone using it in a fight._

Best.


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## Orion6 (Jul 29, 2006)

Thanks to Stephen for relating some first hand experience, and thanks to Bob for coming up with the science as well as the web research. Is it your interpretation of what we have seen that any experimentation with tubular bullets nowadays would potentially get you arrested??? :reading:


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## Stephen A. Camp (May 9, 2006)

Hello. So long as the material doesn't penetrate body armor, there's no problem...I believe, but I'm not sure that it's worth the effort with the current expanding bullets which are available.

There are extremely fast (for caliber) loads that do tremendous damage (for a handgun) but penetrate less than the 12" recommended penetration depth. Examples might be Corbon's 9mm 115 and 125-gr. JHP +P or their .38 Super in the same weight and bullet construction. Their Pow'Rball seems to get about 12" in some calibers and less in others but expand like it is trying to turn itself inside out. Their DPX seems a very good balance between expansion, weight retention, and penetration.

Likewise, Remington's Golden Saber in the mid-power 357 magnum 125-gr., 9mm in either 124gr std or +P, or their 230-gr. JHP in .45 ACP seem to work nicely despite their occassionally sheding their jackets in "soft targets." (From what I've seen in animals and other informal testing, this usually occurs in the last few inches if at all.

Speer's Gold Dot does very well in most calibers and seems to be consistent as well.

With the weight/velocity attainable at most handgun velocities, I'm not sure how "true" a tumbling bullet might continue in tissue. I have no idea if it might veer off its intended path and tear up tissue in a non-vital area. Even expanding (and solids) can do this at handgun bullet speeds, but I have no "feel" or experience in how the tumbling tubular bullet, which will by necessity, be long for weight would do.

Best.


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