# Observations on shot placement



## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

I have several EDC 9mm pistols with barrel lengths from around 3 to 4 inches. I use commercially loaded, standard pressure (not plus P) 115 and 124 gr FMJs (for practice) and JHPs. Most of my range time is spent shooting at 7-10 yards. I notice that basically all my rounds print just a bit low, like 4-6 inches from my point of aim. This is consistent among the three or four 9mm short barreled pistols I've shot. I'd much prefer that my bullet placement is at point of aim; but I suppose I'd have to get different sights to do that (i.e., a shorter front sight).

Now with my one Glock 30 45 ACP I've tested, with a 3.8 inch barrel, I have noted that my standard load (230 gr, standard pressure, FMJ and JHP) prints pretty much spot on at my point of aim. For that reason I am now inclined to carry that pistol over my 9mms, but there are always times when I'd prefer a smaller, lighter 9mm pistol....but I would like to avoid the complication of using a different point of aim with different pistols.

I wonder if a 9mm 147 bullet might print significantly higher than the 115/124 bullets. Theoretically it should.....but can anyone verify this? I have a box of 147 gr FMJs coming and will test ASAP, but I doubt they will print much higher than the 124 gr bullets. But your feedback is appreciated! Any other issues I ought to consider when carrying 124 vs 147 gr SD rounds? Note I'm not LEO anymore, so don't care about punching through doors or windscreens! <g>

Thanks, ya'll.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

The different load may help, most handguns / sights are based on a 25 yard range to target.

Also, not all sights use the same sight picture. There are three different holds. 6 o'clock, POA = POI, and Cover hold. (That's what I call them but there's probably a better term put there) if your sights are POA/POI (point of aim = point of impact) or cover hold and you're shooting with a 6 o'clock sight picture, you will hit low.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

My short barreled 9mm's all shoot consistently closer to POA with 147 grain bullets. I don't practice enough to be confident that my shooter error is not a factor, but I do 'trend' closer to the bulls eye with 147 grain and I 'trend' low with 115 grain ammo. That's not scientific, I know, but in my opinion, the bullet weight does make some difference in sub-compacts. I think the difference is less with heavier pistols, or lighter recoiling pistols.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Bisley said:


> My short barreled 9mm's all shoot consistently closer to POA with 147 grain bullets. I don't practice enough to be confident that my shooter error is not a factor, but I do 'trend' closer to the bulls eye with 147 grain and I 'trend' low with 115 grain ammo. That's not scientific, I know, but in my opinion, the bullet weight does make some difference in sub-compacts. I think the difference is less with heavier pistols, or lighter recoiling pistols.


More time in the barrel results in higher POI.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

If your group is consistently low, say in the 6 o'clock area, you may be "breaking" your wrist, that is, anticipating the recoil and cocking the wrist down. Low shots also come from improper follow-through when the shooter relaxes too quickly. In my experience shorter barrelled pistols w/ shorter sight radiuses are less foregiving and more susceptible to shooters error.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

My 9 is spot on at 10yrs with 147s and 3in low with 124s


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

If these are your carry weapons and assuming the differences are in the small inches, do you think the bad guy is going to point that out?


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

VAMarine said:


> ....... if your sights are POA/POI (point of aim = point of impact) or cover hold and you're shooting with a 6 o'clock sight picture, you will hit low.


Right, that's the reason I use a "high" center of mass hold on a pistol used for SD work. I have many other pistols that I do use at 15 and occasionally 25 yards, and as you say, the stock sights are generally as you described. Strikes me as old that a pistol supposedly designed for SD tasks (compact frame and barrel, reduced capacity, lightweight) would still be sighted for 25 yards! I suppose old manufacturing practices die hard. However, I cannot imagine a situation as a civilian that I'd need to use my EDC pistol for any range over 20-25 FEET or so.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

hillman said:


> More time in the barrel results in higher POI.


Yes, but there is a less pronounced difference if recoil is controlled properly, either due to a heavier gun or just a better grip, because there is less barrel rise. My CZ RAMI is an all steel double stack subcompact, and you have to be shooting really well to notice a significant difference between different weighted bullets. On the other hand, the difference is very pronounced with the Kahr PM-9 I used to own, because the light weight and shorter grip makes it more difficult to control recoil.

Typically, as denner said, there are so many possible ways for shooter error to creep into shooting small pistols that it is hard to say, definitively, which factors are responsible for shooting consistently low. I spent a lot of time and ammo shooting small handguns from a bench rested position to come up with my my opinions on the subject. That is one way to decrease human error so that the 'science' reveals itself, but it isn't fool-proof. That's why I referred to 'trends' in my earlier post.


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Bisley said:


> My short barreled 9mm's all shoot consistently closer to POA with 147 grain bullets. I don't practice enough to be confident that my shooter error is not a factor, but I do 'trend' closer to the bulls eye with 147 grain and I 'trend' low with 115 grain ammo. That's not scientific, I know, but in my opinion, the bullet weight does make some difference in sub-compacts. I think the difference is less with heavier pistols, or lighter recoiling pistols.


Right. Lighter bullets tend to be driven faster, and leave the barrel a little earlier than heavier, slower bullets. Since the muzzle end of the barrel goes up (hand held pistol), the slower the bullet the higher it will print.....all things being equal! <g>


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

denner said:


> If your group is consistently low, say in the 6 o'clock area, you may be "breaking" your wrist, that is, anticipating the recoil and cocking the wrist down. Low shots also come from improper follow-through when the shooter relaxes too quickly. In my experience shorter barrelled pistols w/ shorter sight radiuses are less foregiving and more susceptible to shooters error.


But that would not explain the 230 gr 45 acp rounds impacting closer to my POA. Plus I'm pretty sure I'm not "breaking my wrist" as you described. I'm familiar with that so dry fire a lot before shooting a new gun (seems to help), and occasionally loading a "dead" round in my magazines at the range to both check for that tendency, and of course to practice a "dud round".


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Smitty79 said:


> My 9 is spot on at 10yrs with 147s and 3in low with 124s


Ah, I was hoping someone would tell me that. <g> I have a box of 147 gr FMJs coming for a test, and will see if that holds true for me also. I realize there are other considerations between a 124 gr and 147gr bullet, but as they say "first, you must hit the target"! <G>


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Spike12 said:


> If these are your carry weapons and assuming the differences are in the small inches, do you think the bad guy is going to point that out?


Yes, these are carry pistols I am describing. But the point of impact more like 4-6 inches low......meaning I'd probably miss a head or heart POA. That's enough, especially with a lighter caliber gun, to NOT stop an attacker.


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## noylj (Dec 8, 2011)

>If your group is consistently low, say in the 6 o'clock area, you may be "breaking" your wrist

I was at the range back in the late '70s and the shooter next to me was shooting a .44 Mag. He was shooting at about 15 yards. Every shot was plowing the ground about 5 yards in front of the target. I'm not sure he hit the paper at all.
First, shoot from the bench with sandbags or other support to eliminate most shooter error.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

Another suggestion. Get a good shooter to shoot your gun.


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Smitty79 said:


> Another suggestion. Get a good shooter to shoot your gun.


Not sure if this was directed to me (OP), but the phenomenon of the 124 gr 9mm bullets striking low happens with _all _my SD pistols, and does not happen with my 230 gr 45s. So I don't think it's me, or my 9mm pistols. I think it's simply that these SD pistols are sighted in at the factory using 115/124 gr bullets at 25 yards.....which doesn't work for me as I do not shoot them at that range, nor would I intend to when carrying.

What you said earlier about your pistol(s) impacting higher with the 147 gr bullets is what I hope to duplicate. The 147 gr ammo I ordered arrived last night. I plan to try it out at the range soon to see if it will print a couple of inches higher at 7-10 yards. If not, I suppose I will have to look at a replacement front sight to bring the point of impact closer to the point of aim. Ah, more fun - if the 147 bullets do print where I'd like, I'll get to go through the ammo compatibility tests with my 9mm pistols again! In the meantime I am carrying my Glock 30 that prints close to point of aim....but that's a large handgun.....comparatively!


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

Bisley said:


> Yes, but there is a less pronounced difference if recoil is controlled properly, either due to a heavier gun or just a better grip, because there is less barrel rise. My CZ RAMI is an all steel double stack subcompact, and you have to be shooting really well to notice a significant difference between different weighted bullets. On the other hand, the difference is very pronounced with the Kahr PM-9 I used to own, because the light weight and shorter grip makes it more difficult to control recoil.
> 
> Typically, as denner said, there are so many possible ways for shooter error to creep into shooting small pistols that it is hard to say, definitively, which factors are responsible for shooting consistently low. I spent a lot of time and ammo shooting small handguns from a bench rested position to come up with my my opinions on the subject. That is one way to decrease human error so that the 'science' reveals itself, but it isn't fool-proof. That's why I referred to 'trends' in my earlier post.


guess I am all set for SD shooting with my Shield--I am all over the place with that gun--LOL

I will ventilate anyone if I use it

seriously though, I find that I must use a much stronger grip the shorter the barrel and the smaller the gun I shoot--JMHO


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

boatdoc173 said:


> guess I am all set for SD shooting with my Shield--I am all over the place with that gun--LOL
> 
> I will ventilate anyone if I use it
> 
> seriously though, I find that I must use a much stronger grip the shorter the barrel and the smaller the gun I shoot--JMHO


A 9mm Shield is one of the guns I carry about 20% of the time. Yep, it's not as accurate as others, like my Springfield XDs 9mm. But, I didn't buy these guns as target pistols. If my shots stay within about a 10 inch ring at 7-10 yds, handheld trying for a realistic "aim time", I'm reasonably happy. <g> Sometimes a heavier grip can be detrimental to accuracy, but it sounds like you've already done some experimenting and found what works well for you.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

How are you using the sights? Most guns now have you cover the target with the front dot. But many people shoot with a 6 o'clock hold, so they shoot low. I have several 9mms with short barrels and do not get this.

Most guns now use sight picture #3:










Many people also pull the gun downwards as they pull the trigger - some guns can cause this than others. I once had a USPc 9mm that caused me fits - I swore the gun shot low until I finally used sandbags as a rest and shot it. I never had that issue with any other gun before. I eventually overcame this, but it took me over 750 rounds. And, the gun just wasn't a good fit for me.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

papersniper said:


> ...If my shots stay within about a 10 inch ring at 7-10 yds, handheld trying for a realistic "aim time", I'm reasonably happy...


Everybody is entitled to select their own personal requirements for accuracy, but that is a low standard, in my opinion.

When you consider the unknown factors involved in any possible SD scenario, of which the likelihood of extreme stress degrading your accuracy is very high on the list, I think 3-4" in a controlled environment is a more sensible goal. A 10" ring on a human silhouette target is likely much easier to achieve than a 10" ring at center mass on a human being who may be ducking, dodging, running, hiding behind partial cover, or firing back.

Also, consider that most people enjoy practice shooting, and guns that you can challenge yourself to fire near their accuracy potential are much more interesting.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

papersniper said:


> Yes, these are carry pistols I am describing. But the point of impact more like 4-6 inches low......meaning I'd probably miss a head or heart POA. That's enough, especially with a lighter caliber gun, to NOT stop an attacker.


I see your position and perhaps this is the case. However, all else being equal, I don't experience a major deviance such as 4-6 inches low or high based soley on the bullet weight in grains and probably no more than a 1/2 inch, if any, in POI between 147's, 124's and 115's at 25 yards on in.

Now comparing .45 vs 9mm projectiles and POI, I dunno. Generally, 9mm shoots considerably flatter than .45 especially and longer distances.

Perhaps shooting greater than 100 yards on out is where you would see those types of deviances come into play. Other shooters experiences may vary. As a side note, I most often tended to shoot low with 3" barreled subcompact pistols, especially at first due to my own shooters error, but don't tell anybody:smt083.


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Shipwreck said:


> How are you using the sights? Most guns now have you cover the target with the front dot. But many people shoot with a 6 o'clock hold, so they shoot low. I have several 9mms with short barrels and do not get this.
> 
> Most guns now use sight picture #3:
> 
> ...


Not sure if this was directed to me, the OP, but I use the "center of mass" hold, which is your #2 in the sketch above. That seems the most natural, and it's how I was taught when I was a LEO. Now when I was in the Navy, long time ago, we used the 6 o'clock hold when qualifying with a Colt 1911. But a lot of "where to hold" is dependent on the range to your target. I suppose I can train to use the #3 hold, but I'd prefer to just use what's "natural", since that's probably what I'd do under stress anyway.

I tested the 147 gr rounds yesterday to see where they printed. These were Federal American Eagle 147 gr FMJs. They did print about 1 to 1.25 inches higher at 7 yards than main main practice ammo, which has been Speer Lawman 124 gr TMJ, Blazer Brass 124 gr FMJs and some others. Not a huge difference, but I found that shooting the heavier bullet was quite a bit more accurate, and more pleasant to shoot. I will start replacing my existing supply of 115/124 gr ammo with 147 gr rounds. Now I need to research a good SD round.....thinking of using Speer's 147 gr Gold Dot. I've been happy with their SD ammo in other calibers.

The problem with using sandbags in my mind is that it's too "artificial". I think dry firing, or loading the occasional dummy round during range sessions is more effective than using sand bags.


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Bisley said:


> Everybody is entitled to select their own personal requirements for accuracy, but that is a low standard, in my opinion.
> 
> When you consider the unknown factors involved in any possible SD scenario, of which the likelihood of extreme stress degrading your accuracy is very high on the list, I think 3-4" in a controlled environment is a more sensible goal. A 10" ring on a human silhouette target is likely much easier to achieve than a 10" ring at center mass on a human being who may be ducking, dodging, running, hiding behind partial cover, or firing back.
> 
> Also, consider that most people enjoy practice shooting, and guns that you can challenge yourself to fire near their accuracy potential are much more interesting.


I can't argue on that. I much prefer more accuracy (duh!<g>), but I was thinking that 10 inch dinner plate for quick shooting where I don't have time to "precisely" aim. Luckily my groups tend to be much tighter than 10 inches in the "controlled environment" that you describe above. <g>

Who was it that said "Only accurate guns are interesting". It's a quote in one of my reloading manuals I think.......................


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

denner said:


> I see your position and perhaps this is the case. However, all else being equal, I don't experience a major deviance such as 4-6 inches low or high based soley on the bullet weight in grains and probably no more than a 1/2 inch, if any, in POI between 147's, 124's and 115's at 25 yards on in.
> 
> Now comparing .45 vs 9mm projectiles and POI, I dunno. Generally, 9mm shoots considerably flatter than .45 especially and longer distances.
> 
> Perhaps shooting greater than 100 yards on out is where you would see those types of deviances come into play. Other shooters experiences may vary. As a side note, I most often tended to shoot low with 3" barreled subcompact pistols, especially at first due to my own shooters error, but don't tell anybody:smt083.


Well, I dunno.....I tend to have my shots about 5 inches low at 7-10 yard with the lighter 9mm, and about 1.5 inches higher with heavier ones. Now these are short barred handguns....the Shield 3.1 inch barrel and M&P 9c 3.5 inch barrel are the two I've been using the most lately. It may be a combination of my glass, my age (!), how I hold the pistols, etc. But it's me, so I have to learn to live with it. I believe I may begin to train using the #3 hold described above, so that my sights obliterate the point of aim. That is not natural for me.....and I may be unsuccessful. So, I will use heavier bullets and consider changing out my front sites as an option also. In any event, I confirmed yesterday that my Glock 30 doesn't print lower....my 230 gr FMJs and JHPs are centered directly over my point of aim. It does have a bit longer barrel (3.8? inch) but then it fires a heavier, slower bullet also. I think the weight and speed are more significant than the extra 0.25 inch of barrel.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

My post was geared towards the original poster.

Some different bullet weights do have different POI spots. I have had some 115gr JHP rounds hit low, yet 115gr FMj is dead on.

I use sight picture 3 on all my handguns at 10 yards or less. Once i get out to 15 yards to 25 yards, then some guns i have use sight picture 3, and some use a 6 o'clock hold.

I was just offering the original poster info that might help him... It is possible that shooting low could be a result not using the sights right. Many current self defense pistols use sight picture 3.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

My S&W Shield grouped low with any ammo, till I modified the trigger.


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## noylj (Dec 8, 2011)

>And, the gun just wasn't a good fit for me.

When the Glock first came out, I went to the range and handled one. My GOD, that gun felt terrible.
About 7 years ago, thinking that the articles about Glock improving the feel of the grip might mean that it would feel more comfortable, I went to the range and handled one again. I picked up the gun, closed my eyes, and "aimed" ahead of me. I opened my eyes and the muzzle was pointing UP at a 30-45° angle (this is the exact same thing that happens when I shoot a non-Bisley Cole SAA). Lowering the muzzle to the target, my arthritic wrist screamed in pain.
The thing is, my P-08s feel good in my hand and they point to the target when I bring them up with my eyes closed, so it isn't JUST the grip angle, and 1911s and CZ-75s are perfect, but them Glocks just don't do it for me.
Moral: To shot a handgun well, it really should fit you naturally.

>10 inch ring at 7-10 yds...
I know this is personal, but you need to shoot more often.
"Speed is important, but accuracy is everything."


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Before I owned my first Glock, I didn't like the grip angle or the blocky feel of the grip. Eventually, I realized that despite this, I could shoot the Glock well, and I noticed that other good shooters did, too, the first time they tried. So, I quit worrying about it. My G-20 feels worse in my hand than any full sized pistol I've tried, yet I shoot it better than some of the pistols that do feel good in my hand. If you can shoot, everything doesn't have to be tailored to your preferences.

A Glock is just a Glock, and they just work.


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

Yeah, but they are just so danged UGLY! :mrgreen:Now keep in mind I finally own two; a G42 I've had for about 4 months, and a G30 I bought about a month ago. The G30 is becoming my favorite carry pistol, and the G42 is all I ever carry on my motorcycle. It's just the right size and still shootable, unlikethe other 380s I tried.

But, no one can ague that Glocks are lovely! <g>


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

It's different from gun to gun.

I exercise my edc in a target distance of 8 meters (24 feet).
The home defence based on the largest distance in the house in a distance 15 meters (45 feet).

My M&P Shield9 likes 124 grain xtp bullets. It hits POA in a (VA said) cover hold. But is with that ammo spot on.
My M&P 9c likes the 115 gr xtp much better in a 6 O'clock point of hold. But is very low on 147 and still high with 124gr.
Walther (PPX M1 and PPQ M1 home defence in 40sw) likes hot loads 185gr+P (golden sabre) bullets to be spot on.

End of story is, you have to test your edc and home defence with the defensive rounds to know how your gun shot with what bullet and with what grain.
Most people buy a box of 20 HP rounds based on internet gel test but exercise their gun only with cheaper FMJ and than wonder when they don't hit anything with the defense round.

I don't do it in the ideal way neighter. But I shoot the defensife round at least 4 times a year with 50 rounds each time. The other time I use for my edc also FMJ. I exercise my edc twice a month.

5 Cent off


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

"...It's different from gun to gun.

I exercise my edc in a target distance of 8 meters (24 feet).
The home defence based on the largest distance in the house in a distance 15 meters (45 feet).

My M&P Shield9 likes 124 grain xtp bullets. It hits POA in a (VA said) cover hold. But is with that ammo spot on.
My M&P 9c likes the 115 gr xtp much better in a 6 O'clock point of hold. But is very low on 147 and still high with 124gr.
Walther (PPX M1 and PPQ M1 home defence in 40sw) likes hot loads 185gr+P (golden sabre) bullets to be spot on...."

Interesting. My results at 7.5 yards: My 9mm carry pistols all shoot generally low with a center of mass aim. The heavier the bullet, the higher the point of impact. There is some variation between 9mms, I suspect due to barrel length. I too own a Shield 9mm and a M&P 9c, and there isn't much difference in where mine print with the same ammunition. SD rounds do print a bit smaller group. I only use standard velocity, no Plus P ammunition, in my pistols. I had been using 115 and 124 gr practice ammo, but once that runs out I'm going to use only 147 gr practice and SD ammunition because it prints closer to my point of aim. I am currently researching which 147 SD loads are available. I will probably go with Speer's Gold Dot offering, or one of Federals just because Federal American Eagle FMJs do well in all my 9mm pistols. 

My only 45 ACP carry, a Glock 30, prints just about at point of aim. I've only used standard velocity 230 gr practice and SD rounds...and they are nearly the same print on paper, although the Speer Gold Dot SD rounds are a smaller group. Heck, they ought to be at their prices! :mrgreen:


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Ha.. papersniper. I learned that it is not the gun. Often it is not I should say. It is all in your head. It has something to do with the balance in your hand, trigger point and other ergonomics. What fits me don't have to fit necessarily fit you in the same way.
If I aim with my shield9 in covered mode and you with the same gun, even using my gun with the same ammo, have to aim different.
That is the reason why we have so many different guns. That is why H&K offers back straps and side straps to customize the gun.
It's happen mostly in your brain. At least that is was I learned.
But this is what makes life colorful and exiding. Don't ya think?


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## papersniper (Oct 14, 2015)

".....It's happen mostly in your brain. ....."

OMG, that is a scary thought! 

Yep, can't disagree with you.....but what you're calling "not in the gun", like balance and ergonomics, I would define as "in the gun". Subtle difference and probably not significant.......

"...But this is what makes life colorful and exiding. Don't ya think? "

YES! :mrgreen:


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