# Whcih 380 would you choose or have made?



## hideit

I wanted to say what is the *best* 380 out there but choose different words.
The current issue of G&A magazine (pg 14) got me thinking about the very small sizes of the ruger LCP and the Sig P238.
These are very small guns for pocket carry but don't fit a lot of hands.

I passed up, in 1971, a Walther PPK in 380 and wish I could take that decision back. Back then they were great guns, a lot better than is what is made today. (so I've read) 
IF THIS IS WRONG - PLEASE RESPOND

Then I started thinking about the Sig P232 in .380 and wondered if readers here think it is better than the presently make PPK. IS IT?

I'm not real sure about a 1911 commander in .380 but I understand where he is coming from - i.e. a .380 that fits the hand better.
COMENTS?


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## berettabone

To me, a 1911 in .380 would be a waste....if you're going to conceal carry something that large, might as well have a larger caliber for sure, and if you're going to open carry, still might as well have a larger caliber. I don't know about your area, but .380 ammo is getting really expensive...... PPk's are nice, old, or new, but I don't like the weight, or the trigger, personally...not to say that they are a bad firearm, just my tastes.......won't comment on the P232..don't know enough about it........I carry a S&W Bodyguard, because it's small, I can carry with a desantis holster, it's light enough, and I have fired it enough to trust it. Is it the most accurate.....no, but I do not intend to get into firefights with it, it is for close quarters only, and for that, I trust it.......just got rid of my Beretta 84fs, nice firearm, but too bulky for carry, and I just wasn't accurate enough with it. I am slowly fazing myself away from .380....it's just getting too pricey, and it's more enjoyable for me, to shoot larger calibers. The Bodyguard's, and the LCP's, and other such models are small in the hand, and take some getting used to, and lots of practice, and even then, they are for 12 yds. or less, in my opinion. I will keep my BG .380, but it will be the only one I own going forward. Other larger caliber firearms in the compacts, are still too difficult to shoot accurately. Like everyone else, I am still waiting for the perfect firearm, but I won't hold my breath....that's why alot of people own more than one firearm, for more than one application.


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## Bisley

The only value a .380 has for me is that it allows for a smaller platform than a 9mm - pocket size, to be more precise. The smallest 9mm (9x19 Luger) is just a bit too large for my pockets (without printing). 

So, anything in a .380 that is larger than a Keltec P3AT or a Ruger LCP is a 'too weak' chambering in a 'too large' platform, in my opinion. The PPK's and their many copies should be 9x19s, in my opinion. It's true that pocket pistols are too small to be comfortable in the hands of a grownup, but they can be adapted to. A small pistol in a weak chambering is already a compromise, so learning how to grip and shoot one somewhat accurately is just part of that.


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## genesis

Hi Hideit. I assume you're looking for a CC gun, or at least something small. I'm a revolver guy, so a 380 auto wouldn't interest me. I've had my share of autos and they worked just fine 99.999% of the time. The mag capacity of most small 380's isn't much greater than a Ruger LCR. My girlfriend has a Ruger LCR 38 Special-$399 (not the 357), which I have shot extensively. It's one sweet gun. Light as a potato chip, reliable as dirt, butter smooth trigger, and accurate as all heck. Don't tell me ya can't hit anything at long distance with a snubby. But CC guns are designed for close range work anyway. And that whole thing about recoil in a light gun is blown all out of proportion. I taught my 67 year old girlfriend how to shoot her LCR, and now recoil is no problem for her. She's gotten really good with it. 3 out of 3 on a pie plate at 15 feet in 3 seconds! I pity the poor soul she drops the hammer on! But we practice *A LOT* together. Drill after drill after drill, again and again and again! I reload for both of us. Drop an LCR in your front pocket, and you will literally forget it's there. It's that light! If ya need to use it, just pull it out and pull the trigger. *BANG!* I'm not a big fan of caliber or firepower either, as skill and presence of mind trump those things every time. But a 38 special is more than a tad better than a 380. Plus with a revolver, there are no safeties or malfunctions to deal with. I'm not saying a revolver can't malfunction. Happened to me in a match once. But I was able to simply pull the trigger to fire the next round, and still won the match. (True story - Bowling pin shoot) It all boils down to personal preference. I'd prefer a 5 shot revolver to any auto for CC. That's just my preference, plain and simple. Now don't you all flame me. You all are entitled to your preferences to. There's no right or wrong or good or bad in a preference. So the OP should get whatever *he's* most comfortable with. Then practice, practice, practice! And by practice I mean not only for accuracy, but practice evaluating and clearing malfunctions quickly. I notice he's a senior member, so he's probably already familiar with all that. But a newbie/rookie reading this post is not gonna be familiar with stuff like that. That's why I mentioned it.

Good luck with your new purchase Hideit. Let us know whatcha get.

Don <><

Here's a 15 minute video review of the Ruger LCR in 38 Special.
Maybe you'll like it and maybe you won't.
I'm just trying to give you some choices.
Maybe you just prefer autos. So be it.


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## Shipwreck

A 380 that you won't be trying to conceal... Best 380 made IMHO - is the Beretta Cheetahs... I like the single stack version, because it just fits the hand so nicely. But, there is a 13 round doublestack one made too.

If I was gonna CARRY a 380 as a mouse gun... For a pocket, I'd grab a Kahr P380. 

Carrying a single action in a pocket is not something I really want to do (the Sig 238). SO, I wouldn't buy that Sig...

If I was going to carry a 380 in HOLSTER on my belt (either OWB or IWB)... I'd pick the Beretta or the Sig 232.


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## Steve M1911A1

I may have to transition to a .380, the result of arthritis.
If I do, it will be a Colt's M.1903 Pocket Hammerless, which is a medium-size semi-auto. (Some people call the .380 ACP version of the M.1903 a "M.1908," but that isn't really correct.)

The reason for carrying such a "large" .380 is that ol' debbil arthritis: The larger grip makes this pistol harder to hide, but much easier to hang onto. Its single-action trigger, and safety lever (just a little too small), makes trigger control easier. (But I just hate its grip safety.)

About that PPK...
I am a firm believer in trigger actions which stay the same, all of the time.
It's hard enough, to reliably hit what you're aiming at with a pistol, without then adding the complication of a changing trigger when your mind is occupied instead with saving your life.
So my personal preference is that my carry pistol have either a double-action-only (DAO) trigger, or a single-action (SA) trigger and a safety lever. That decisively rules out the PPK's "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger, with its DA first shot, its SA subsequent shots, and its hammer-dropping safety.

I've shot SA-with-safety 1911s for years and years, so it's an automatic, built-in part of my drawstroke, to get my thumb onto the safety, press it down, and leave it there to stabilize my grip and the gun. If I'm carrying a gun in a OWB holster, it's a 1911; so if I have to reach for it at about "4:00," the thumb action proceeds without conscious thought.
My EDC nowadays, though, is my AMT .45 Backup, which is DAO. I've carried that, and practiced with it, for years and years, too. If I'm carrying a gun in my front pants pocket, it's the AMT .45 Backup; so if I reach into my pocket, I am programmed not to deal with a safety, but instead to work with a DAO trigger.
It's all a matter of practice, practice, practice.


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## VAMarine

And my answer is........

Colt .380 Government










Don't let the Government fool you, think of it as an enlarged Colt Mustang / 238

I need to try and find one in rough shape and have it fluffed up and some decent sights added. The one pictured is too nice to carry.

Would love to have one made up like* THIS*


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## rex

I haven't seen the new PPKs,but the originals had an attrocious trigger and the bottom of the slide was sharp enough to draw blood on the web of your hand.I hads 2 Sig 230s and they were very good pieces,basically Sig's version of the PPK.The blue version was really nice to carry because of the aluminum frame,the stainless was quite heavy.Unfortunately Sig saw fit to revamp them in the newer 232 and had problems in the beginning with a redesigned breechface,but as far as I can tell the issue has been solved.

I'm not a big fan of the 380,but if I were to get one I'd find an old blue Sig or the Beretta 84 or 85,whichever one is the doublestack.


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## berettabone

I would have to agree that the Beretta Cheetah 84fs could be the best .380 out there, as far as feel, ease of maintainance, etc., but if you're a shirt tucker like me, can't CCW the thing, and you'd have to change the sights....atrocious.


Shipwreck said:


> A 380 that you won't be trying to conceal... Best 380 made IMHO - is the Beretta Cheetahs... I like the single stack version, because it just fits the hand so nicely. But, there is a 13 round doublestack one made too.
> 
> If I was gonna CARRY a 380 as a mouse gun... For a pocket, I'd grab a Kahr P380.
> 
> Carrying a single action in a pocket is not something I really want to do (the Sig 238). SO, I wouldn't buy that Sig...
> 
> If I was going to carry a 380 in HOLSTER on my belt (either OWB or IWB)... I'd pick the Beretta or the Sig 232.


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## chessail77

Had a PPK and it was a bit risky to shoot as hand placement was vital to keep all your hide, was heavy and trigger was marginal, sold it and bought a Bersa which was modeled after it and shoots much better. ...JJ


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## hideit

Shipwreck said:


> A 380 that you won't be trying to conceal... Best 380 made IMHO - is the Beretta Cheetahs... I like the single stack version, because it just fits the hand so nicely. But, there is a 13 round doublestack one made too.
> 
> If I was gonna CARRY a 380 as a mouse gun... For a pocket, I'd grab a Kahr P380.
> 
> Carrying a single action in a pocket is not something I really want to do (the Sig 238). SO, I wouldn't buy that Sig...
> 
> If I was going to carry a 380 in HOLSTER on my belt (either OWB or IWB)... I'd pick the Beretta or the Sig 232.


thanks - that feedback is very good


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## hideit

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I may have to transition to a .380, the result of arthritis.
> If I do, it will be a Colt's M.1903 Pocket Hammerless, which is a medium-size semi-auto. (Some people call the .380 ACP version of the M.1903 a "M.1908," but that isn't really correct.)
> 
> The reason for carrying such a "large" .380 is that ol' debbil arthritis: The larger grip makes this pistol harder to hide, but much easier to hang onto. Its single-action trigger, and safety lever (just a little too small), makes trigger control easier. (But I just hate its grip safety.)
> 
> About that PPK...
> I am a firm believer in trigger actions which stay the same, all of the time.
> It's hard enough, to reliably hit what you're aiming at with a pistol, without then adding the complication of a changing trigger when your mind is occupied instead with saving your life.
> So my personal preference is that my carry pistol have either a double-action-only (DAO) trigger, or a single-action (SA) trigger and a safety lever. That decisively rules out the PPK's "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger, with its DA first shot, its SA subsequent shots, and its hammer-dropping safety.
> 
> I've shot SA-with-safety 1911s for years and years, so it's an automatic, built-in part of my drawstroke, to get my thumb onto the safety, press it down, and leave it there to stabilize my grip and the gun. If I'm carrying a gun in a OWB holster, it's a 1911; so if I have to reach for it at about "4:00," the thumb action proceeds without conscious thought.
> My EDC nowadays, though, is my AMT .45 Backup, which is DAO. I've carried that, and practiced with it, for years and years, too. If I'm carrying a gun in my front pants pocket, it's the AMT .45 Backup; so if I reach into my pocket, I am programmed not to deal with a safety, but instead to work with a DAO trigger.
> It's all a matter of practice, practice, practice.


steve: sorry to hear about the arthritis but yea it happens and probably to me soon.
so here is a notable gun writer stating he would like to see a bigger 380 and he goes right to the top of the 1911 type guns. wonder if he even thought about Browning's original 380 design. You have a great point on this weapon - original design and by the famous JMBrowning.


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## hideit

yea VAMarine - i wonder how many even remember Colt's Government 380

Didn't it have a lot of design problems - or did it just not sell because it was ahead of its time for the 380 crowd


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## VAMarine

hideit said:


> yea VAMarine - i wonder how many even remember Colt's Government 380
> 
> Didn't it have a lot of design problems - or did it just not sell because it was ahead of its time for the 380 crowd


The latter, the Colt .380s actually run pretty well. When Colt trimmed back their offerings in the 90's, the .380 variants were axed.


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## hideit

thanks again SHIPWRECK AND STEVEM1911A1
I already own 3 pocket pistols and a 1911 NIB west point pistol that i don't want to break in

did some more research today and that colt pocket hammerless has about the same dimensions and weight as the Cheetah but it is a lot more expensive if you can find one. and I wouldn't want to carry a collector's gun.
That Cheetah has almost identical dimensions as a glock 19!
However recoil and over penetration are two reasons I like the 380.
what started off as a little research from Patrick Sweeney's comment in the latest issue of G&A magazine has resulted in a new gun on my purchase list.
now i gotta hold the cheetah 84 and 85 to see which feels better in the hand.


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## Hurryin' Hoosier

My favorite .380, overall, is my Beretta 84BB. The one I'd pocket-carry, though, is my trusty old Beretta Model 1934.


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## Dragonheart

If you want a 380 I assume you want to carry? As far as full time carry in any kind of weather or dress means pocket carry. The best of the small 380's, suitable for pocket carry, that I have found, and I have looked and fired most of them, is the Sig P-238 and the Walther PPK/S. My opinion is based on reliability first and accuracy second. When I say accuracy, I mean a shooter with reasonable skills can empty the magazine into a six inch circle at 10 meters. Of the two my vote for #1 goes to the Sig due to it's smaller size, lighter felt recoil and the ease of racking the slide, which is a problem for a lot of women on most auto handguns. Obviously, there will be others with different opinions.


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## Steve M1911A1

hideit said:


> ..._ did some more research today and that colt pocket hammerless has about the same dimensions and weight as the Cheetah but it is a lot more expensive if you can find one. and I wouldn't want to carry a collector's gun..._


_
Ours is not a collector's gun. Its condition is not fine enough for that.
But it shoots to point-of-aim.
It would be overpriced at $600.00, but they can be found for about $100.00 less than that._


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## Shipwreck

Yes, check out the 84 and 85 cheetah to see which you like best. They really are almost like mini 92's. They are really overbuilt 380s, and would probably be the least recoiling current production 380s.


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## hideit

yea I looked at several youtube videos today and it is a mini 92 and thus i expected it to be overdesigned for a .380 WHICH IS GOOD
less recoil, less over penetration - 14 rounds avail. - new 380 ammo is GREAT - what's not to like
I used to own an LCP but sold it - when I practice I don't want to leave the range with a sore hand after 50 rounds - I usually shoot 150-200 rounds
hmmmm I wonder if I can talk my wife out of that 38 spl snubby and into this? LOL


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## hideit

I keep forgetting - I'm left handed and the AMBI features make this even more appealing


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## Shipwreck

Well, let us know what U decide


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## berettatoter

hideit said:


> I wanted to say what is the *best* 380 out there but choose different words.
> The current issue of G&A magazine (pg 14) got me thinking about the very small sizes of the ruger LCP and the Sig P238.
> These are very small guns for pocket carry but don't fit a lot of hands.
> 
> I passed up, in 1971, a Walther PPK in 380 and wish I could take that decision back. Back then they were great guns, a lot better than is what is made today. (so I've read)
> IF THIS IS WRONG - PLEASE RESPOND
> 
> Then I started thinking about the Sig P232 in .380 and wondered if readers here think it is better than the presently make PPK. IS IT?
> 
> I'm not real sure about a 1911 commander in .380 but I understand where he is coming from - i.e. a .380 that fits the hand better.
> COMENTS?


The Walther I have was made in Ulm, Germany back in the 1980's. It has always done good for me. I pocket carry most of the time now though. The Ruger LCP is my first choice. Second, I do carry a Kel Tec P3AT at times, and I also have a I.O. Hellcat. I recommend the Ruger of the three, then the Kel Tec, and lastly the Hellcat. The Hellcat has done OK for me, but I do experience the occasional FTF with it.


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## berettatoter

Shipwreck said:


> Yes, check out the 84 and 85 cheetah to see which you like best. They really are almost like mini 92's. They are really overbuilt 380s, and would probably be the least recoiling current production 380s.


Shipwreck knows what he is talking about here, so listen up. I have one Model 84 and one Model 85. I don't carry them much, but man do they shoot!:smt033


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## Milhouse58421

Sig 232. If they made it in a 9mm Luger, it would put everyone else out of business.


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## Steve M1911A1

Milhouse58421 said:


> Sig 232. If they made it in a 9mm Luger, it would put everyone else out of business...


Um, not everyone likes exactly the same things that you like.
That's precisely why there are so many choices out there.


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## Milhouse58421

Wow. Have you ever heard of the term "Tongue in cheek". Maybe try not to take things quite so literally.


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## Steve M1911A1

It's kinda hard to see that your tongue's in your cheek when you're typing words.
Maybe next time you could choose different words, or use a "smiley."


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## Milhouse58421

At ease soldier....


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## Russ

*You can stop holding your breath, Your wait is over for the perfect firearm....*



berettabone said:


> "...Like everyone else, I am still waiting for the perfect firearm, but I won't hold my breath....that's why alot of people own more than one firearm, for more than one application.


Berettabone:

You can stop holding your breath. Your wait is over for the perfect ccw. I have owned and sold a Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano and shot most of the major ccws on the market and without question my search is over for the ideal ccw and after 500 flawless rounds I am convinced my expectation (i.e. reliable, pocket concealment, accurate, full size shooting comfort in a sub compact 9mm caliber) have been exceeded.

Which ccw is in the most demand right now? Backordered everywhere and selling on Gunbroker for crazy sums of money.

One range trip helped me understand why people are willing to drop down $100 - $200 over suggested retail for this gem.

Russ


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## Steve M1911A1

[Content deleted by M1911A1.]


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## Skimo

I feel let down by the p238 I bought, heard nothing but good about Sig, previous owner had to send it back for failure to eject. After 50 rounds i was irate with 4 failures of the slide not locking back, no limp wrist. The front sight is far to low, I can adjust my aim, but at that point there's no use in tritium sights. Factory LASER, after adjusting the elevation, two shots later the windage was a foot off at 10 yards.

I'm no gun nut, but I know a lemon when I shoot one. 

I got it based on size, because it's good to go in Massachusetts and because with a little tweaking I heard the trigger stops sucking. I think it'll go to warranty service and get sold or traded for something else.


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## berettabone

Gee, ok, I'll play............uhhhhhhhhhhh.....rhymes with field? Like I said, I'm still waiting........


Russ said:


> Berettabone:
> 
> You can stop holding your breath. Your wait is over for the perfect ccw. I have owned and sold a Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano and shot most of the major ccws on the market and without question my search is over for the ideal ccw and after 500 flawless rounds I am convinced my expectation (i.e. reliable, pocket concealment, accurate, full size shooting comfort in a sub compact 9mm caliber) have been exceeded.
> 
> Which ccw is in the most demand right now? Backordered everywhere and selling on Gunbroker for crazy sums of money.
> 
> One range trip helped me understand why people are willing to drop down $100 - $200 over suggested retail for this gem.
> 
> Russ


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## aarondhgraham

*Several people have mentioned the Beretta Cheetah series,,,*

I have the Model 85 single-stack and simply adore this gun,,,
But I purchased mine used for a very good price.

They traditionally run well over $650.00,,,
One other gun to consider is the Bersa Thunder 380,,,
Or the Bersa 380 CC version which is smoother in profile.










They are virtually the same size,,,
In fact holsters for one fit the other just fine.

My Bersa has proven itself to be as reliable as my Cheetah,,,
It has a decocker which the Cheetah does not,,,
Round capacity is the same for each,,,
But the Bersa is only $285.00.

I own and love both guns,,,
The Beretta is my briefcase gun,,,
The Bersa is the one I strap on for carry use.

Aarond

.


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## Packard

Shipwreck said:


> A 380 that you won't be trying to conceal... Best 380 made IMHO - is the Beretta Cheetahs... I like the single stack version, because it just fits the hand so nicely. But, there is a 13 round doublestack one made too.
> 
> If I was gonna CARRY a 380 as a mouse gun... For a pocket, I'd grab a Kahr P380.
> 
> Carrying a single action in a pocket is not something I really want to do (the Sig 238). SO, I wouldn't buy that Sig...
> 
> If I was going to carry a 380 in HOLSTER on my belt (either OWB or IWB)... I'd pick the Beretta or the Sig 232.


The Beretta with a tip-up barrel was a great choice especially for people who had problems racking the slide. I think it is out of production.

I had the PPKS which I bought (in stainless steel) in about 1982. I had it for many years and it was reliable, had good sights, was accurate and concealed well on the belt. It was stamped "made in Germany" but was actually made in Portugal. German law allows "Made in Germany" imprint if the final assembly is done on German soil. The grip halves were screwed in on German soil, so it was "made in Germany".

The "made in Germany" label has some cache, but I am not convinced that the American made version is in any way inferior. Maybe if S & W shipped the guns to Germany and had the grip halves screwed together the quality was assume a higher status.

Some here have complained about the Walther trigger. But mine was excellent.


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## Russ

berettabone said:


> Gee, ok, I'll play............uhhhhhhhhhhh.....rhymes with field? Like I said, I'm still waiting........


berettabone

Have you personally shot a Shield?

I can speak from experience. I have shot a Kahr CM 9 Beretta Nano Kimber Solo Sig 238 (I know its a 380) Glock 26 Ruger LC9 and the Shield out performed every gun I mentioned.

I have no allegiance to any gun maker. I purchased the Kahr and Nano last year and dumped them both when they failed. I would have done the same if the Shield did not meet my expectations

Russ


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## berettabone

Personally, I am not in the habit of having to "dump" firearms. Too costly. I do my homework before I purchase ANY firearm. I have been shooting handguns off and on for about 37 years, and have not yet found, seen, shot etc. the perfect firearm yet. It's why I own more than one. With the competition these days, for firearm sellers, anyone who would pay more than suggested retail for a firearm, is either rich, or foolish, or both. The OP is asking about .380.'s. I only carry a mouse gun at this time, because it's the only comfortable way for me right now. Otherwise, I would carry nothing but Beretta. I have owned over the years, semi's, and revolvers, and have NEVER had a misfeed, or a misfire. So, back to the original post, I have yet to see the perfect .380. I just sold my Beretta 84fs, because I am getting away from .380.......getting too expensive. Besides my carry firearm, I shoot nothing but .40 cal. I would rather carry a large frame handgun, but for right now, I like my Bodyguard.....it does what it's supposed to do, and what it's capable of. I never purchase a firearm, because of all the hoopla someone gives about one firearm or another...to me, the shield is just another small firearm. I am glad that you are happy with yours, that's the main thing.


Russ said:


> berettabone
> 
> Have you personally shot a Shield?
> 
> I can speak from experience. I have shot a Kahr CM 9 Beretta Nano Kimber Solo Sig 238 (I know its a 380) Glock 26 Ruger LC9 and the Shield out performed every gun I mentioned.
> 
> I have no allegiance to any gun maker. I purchased the Kahr and Nano last year and dumped them both when they failed. I would have done the same if the Shield did not meet my expectations
> 
> Russ


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## Russ

Berettabone

Thanks for the reply.

I am not rich and I hope I am not foolish.

I was very fortunate when I purchased the Kahr CM9 last year after 3 trips back I convinced Kahr to refund my money. My second CCW purchase was the Beretta Nano. After 4 months of frustration with FTEs I convinced Cabelas to trade straight across for the S&W Shield and I pocket conceal 10 hours a day in Dockers and I honestly enjoy shooting my Shield more than my XD 45 and the grip is molded nicely for my medium size hand. 

If you have an opportunity try it. The extended magazine which comes with the Shield is a delight for big hands. 

Russ


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## hideit

I held an 84fs the other day and was surprised that it is smaller than I thought it would be.
however the reach to the trigger is longer than the 3at, the lcp, or the sig 238 so I like that feature as it is easier on the finger.
feels good in the hand and it fit fine in my 5.11 pants however I might get an inside the waist band holster for it
yea - I like the 84fs


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## Shipwreck

I wanna get an 85 model one of these days


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## TheGunTutor

I picked up a Walther PPK this summer, and I like it a bit more than others in the thread. I use it as a backup pocket pistol in a jacket pocket, usually. Because I teach beginners I find it is a good gun to introduce shooters with small hands to something with a little more recoil than a .22. With a longer barrel it's easier to learn with than the true "pocket pistols."

I've found it to be accurate on drills, even with the single/double trigger. I posted a review online a while back Walther PPK Accuracy and Defensive Test | The Gun Tutor


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## cwl1862

I have four 380's currently a Colt Govt 380, Beretta 84, Bersa Thunder 380 Plus, and a Ruger LCP, and have previously owned the SIG P230, a Walther PK380, and a Taurus PT58HC. All were fine reliable weapons although built for different purposes. The ultimate for CC would be hands down the LCP although I believe your looking for something a bit larger. Next up in size is the Colt Government model 380, a great weapon but only available on the used market now as colt stopped making them some time ago, You may want to look at the SIG P238 or the new Colt Mustang (basicly the same pistol) though somewhat small in grip size. The Colts and P238 are single stacks and SA only, and must be carried cocked and locked just like a 1911. Next up in size are the SIG P230 and Walther PK380, both are single stacks but DA/SA, both are good reliable weapons, however if you have large hands the SIG P230 like the Walther PPK will give you a good case of slide or hammer bite as in both cases the slides rather close to the web of you hand and are not friendly to folks with large hands. I had no complaints with the Walther PK380 which I sold to make room in the safe for something else. Next up the size scale are the Beretta 84 and the Bersa Thunder Plus. Both are DA/SA firearms with double stack magazines, totally reliable although a bit heavy and some think a little thick in the grip, however this doesn't bother me because of the afore mentioned large hands and having 14 to 16 rounds on hand doesn't hurt matters either when dealing with goblins, here more is always better when were dealing with the 380.
The last up is the Taurus PT58HC which is a DA/SA with a 19 round mag, this pistol was 100% reliable, but was in the same size class as a full sized handgun kind of the same as a Beretta 92 compact except in 380 instead of 9mm so not very practicle. and was sold off again to make room.


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## padom

I've had my LCP for a while now and just cant get comfortable with it. I'm a pretty good shot with all my other guns but my big hands just cant grip the LCP comfortably. I saw a thread with these grips on a guys LCP and decided to order them for my LCP to see if it helps me improve accuracy. I would never rely on my LCP as my main gun for CCW (SIG .40) but want an accurate back up gun.

I am probably going to sell my LCP and go with a SIG P238 if the new grips dont improve my accuracy with this tiny gun.

Amazon.com: Pearce Grips Gun Fits Ruger LCP Grip Extension: Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com: Hogue Handall Hyb Lcp: Sports & Outdoors


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## PistolChick86

Started out with a Ruger LCP, which had to much recoil and was just to plain small to handle. Traded it in for a Smith&Wesson Bodyguard, which had the longest trigger pull I have ever felt. Traded that in and I currently have a Bersa Thunder Duotone, which I haven't yet shot but am very much looking forward to it. My collection also includes a Taurus .357 Magnum, a Ruger SR 22, Beretta Px4 Storm Compact 9MM.


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## Bisley

padom said:


> I've had my LCP for a while now and just cant get comfortable with it. I'm a pretty good shot with all my other guns but my big hands just cant grip the LCP comfortably.


I have the same problem, but it is a necessary trade-off for something that will work in a normal pocket. Anything that helps with the feel defeats the original purpose, except the Pierce mag extensions, which do help, some. My hands are large enough that nothing 'feels just right' except a full-sized pistol.

I have learned to adapt my conventional 'combat grip' so that I can use it without impeding the slide or shooting the end of my thumb off, and by bowing my trigger finger out to use only the pad on the first joint. It isn't comfortable, but I can usually shoot inside a 4" circle at about 10 yards.


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## MLB

If the OP is considering a ppk or ppk/s, consider handling both the current production from S&W, and used ones imported by Interarms. They are easily discernible by looking at the rear tang; S&W versions have an extended tang that eliminates the "Walther bite" common with the German and French versions. I have a S&W version, and agree that it had a few sharp edges. As mine is stainless, these were very easily remedied with a pin file.

Steve's comments on trigger types are something to think about. The DA trigger on mine is rather heavy, and very different from the much lighter SA pull.


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## shotlady

I got the blued ppks, the serial indicates a late 80s model. we polished the feed ramp and it shot so nicely. I was just too sketchy on keeping my skin in tack and dont like having something that would bit. my sons as they are about 6 feet 4 & marines so my armory is always open to them. and it had an odd metally smell to it. i gave it away the same week i got it to my range friend, wendy.

i really wanted a smaller carry so i got the ruger sr22. im very happy with that little gun. havent rethought the .380


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## shotlady

PistolChick86 said:


> Started out with a Ruger LCP, which had to much recoil and was just to plain small to handle...


i tried that too and thought it was an obnoxious little gun.


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## PistolChick86

shotlady said:


> i tried that too and thought it was an obnoxious little gun.


Did you end up trading it in for something? If so, what did you decide to get and are you sticking with it?


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## Tuefelhunden

A little late to this discussion but would +1 the 84/85 Beretta Cheetah line, P232 and honorable mention to the LCP if you can shoot it comfortably. I would add that for me the Sig P232 alloy frame version is pocketable in dress pants, cargo shorts, etc. I know it doesn't seem like it would work but the weight, thickness and shape despite it's size works well. Pleated docker type pants or cargo type shorts it disappears and the weight is just light enough. The stainless version would be too heavy in my opinion for the pocket. As a pocket application gun I find the heel mag release location a positive in this instance and the weapon is large enough to be very shootable. YMMV


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## padom

Just installed the Hogue grip and the Pearce mag extensions on my Ruger LCP and it feels like a new gun. Much better grip, very comfortable. 

Have to go to the range now and test accuracy. If this improves my accuracy I will keep it as back up gun otherwise I will sell it and put the money towards a Sig P238.


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## hideit

Today I held the bersa thunder and the cheetah 84fs
the SA trigger pull is just a bit smoother on the cheetah
the DA trigger pull seemed to be about the same. If there was a pound difference I couldn't feel it.

the thing that I liked best was that your index finger pushes down to disengage the safety on the Cheetah but your finger has to push UP to disengage the safety on the Bersa.
Drawing the pistol from a holster.... I wonder how many people have an index finger strong enough to push up on the safety.
seems that two hands were required


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## niadhf

My answer to your original question is a Makarov. Although i prefer them in the 9x18. Nice and alim. Smaller than my other FS (even the compact) double stacks. 
8+1. Easy on the hands (for me) for recoil. 
Sights are piss poor hard to see. 
And the safety is down for off (if you choose to carry safety engaged), which for me means, a natural action during the draw stroke. Pushing up for safety of was never right for me. 
So, of a med/full size .380ish, that is my choice. Probably be what i go back to of i reach the age where arthritis comes into play. 
Good luck.


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## aarondhgraham

*I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned a Bersa Thunder 380,,,*

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Bersa Thunder 380,,,
Mine is a great little pistol that simply does not malfunction.

Now having said that, I absolutely love my Beretta 85,,,
It's like Mr. Beretta snuck in and took a mold of my hand.










The Beretta has less felt recoil than the Bersa,,,
But it also costs more than twice the money.

New Bersa's are around $285.00,,,
New Beretta's (84 or 85) are over $700.00.

The Beretta fits my hand perfectly,,,
The Bersa fits my hand nicely,,,
I hit well with either gun.

New Beretta pistols only have a three year warranty,,,
New Bersa pistols have a lifetime warranty for the original owner.

Aarond

.


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## kaboooom

I have the Bersa Thunder duo-tone 380. Had lots of FT-etc issues. Replaced recoil spring and that cured all the issues except for last round failure. Bought a new Bersa mag since I wanted two and only one came with purchase. Same problem. Ordered two new mag springs (ps: cleaning didn't help). Haven't got to the range to test it further yet. I can't polish the feed ramp because of the iodized coating (wish I had not got the duo tone for this purpose). But the feed ramp appears ok, I just like to have them slick as snot as a rule. At any rate, I am thinking of getting the Kahr CW380 since it is a couple inches shorter than the BT380 and shorter grip for ease of pocket carry. I figure my PX4 40 cal is the cold weather carry, the BT for late spring and early fall carry, and the cw380 for hot weather minimum clothing carry. Can't carry a full size 40 cal w/o printing in hot weather very well. The cw380 is supposed to be great for +p. I can't find one to shoot so figure a Hogue will ease that issue if it is there. My BT380 handles the +p fine and can shoot it all day.


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## bluedoors

I carry a Ruger LCP IWB during cooler weather, target round in the pipe and 6 hollow points in the mag.
Then a Sig Sauer P230 .380 OWB when it's hot enough to sweat Elsie rusty in the summer, 7 hollow points in mag and nothing chambered


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## BigCityChief

My two favorite .380's are my Beretta 84 FS and my Sig Sauer P238.


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## nrd515525

I've had a lot of .380's and IMHO, nothing beats the Beretta 84 (Pick a variant) and it's closed slide "brother", the Browning BDA380. If you look around, and wait, you can find either of them in decent used condition, for about $300. I bought an 84BB a couple of years ago, in "85%" condition, for $289. A friend recently bought a BDA380 for $329, in excellent (I would say 90%) shape. Both shoot anything you put in them, as long as it's loadable. I've had one FTF, due to a severely out of round case. This was the same cause of the only failures I had with my previous 84 and my BDA380's, going back to about 1980.


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## TAPnRACK

My vote is for the Sig P238... simply on another level than most other .380's (Beretta's are very nice too), also in another price range than most. Worth every penny imo. The dependability and quality you expect from a Sig in the palm of your hand.


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## Glock Doctor

hideit said:


> ....... I passed up, in 1971, a Walther PPK in 380 and wish I could take that decision back. Back then they were great guns, a lot better than is what is made today. (so I've read)
> IF THIS IS WRONG - PLEASE RESPOND
> 
> Then I started thinking about the Sig P232 in .380 and wondered if readers here think it is better than the presently make PPK. IS IT?
> 
> I'm not real sure about a 1911 commander in .380 but I understand where he is coming from - i.e. a .380 that fits the hand better.
> COMENTS?


I have an old German-made, Armaloy plated, Walther PPK-S in 380 ACP. It is utterly reliable and has never failed me; but it's, also, blow-back operated and, quite frankly, kicks, 'like a mule'.

NOT all Walther PPK-S pistols are, 'the best'. When Interarms began manufacturing them, here, in America and, 'under license' they screwed a lot of them up. Many of the early, American-made, Interarms AND Smith & Wesson pistols have uncorrectable feed ramp problems. So, when you look at old Walthers you have to be careful. It's only the German-made pistols (many of them imported by Interarms and stamped accordingly) that are actually superior little pistols.

New Walthers? They've got some MIM parts in them; but, they work fine. By the way, this is just a personal observation on my part; but, as of now, I've never met anyone who enjoys shooting a Ruger LCP. Carry? Yes, but not actually using for, say, an extended practice session.

May I ask, 'Why' you're so enamored with 9mm Kurz? It's NOT a great self-defense caliber? In fact I only carry mine (with two extra magazines) when I'm wearing a lightweight suit - Which, nowadays, ain't all that often. Perhaps, an honest-to-goodness 9 x 19mm pistol would suit BOTH your hands and your needs a whole lot better!

To answer your last question: Personally I'm not a SIG fan. I don't like alloy frames; and I don't like the premium prices SIG pistols command. I've, also, had to repair a few of them; and, once taken apart, I've seen too many metal stampings and tool marks on the inside. I don't remember seeing any MIM parts; but, I wasn't looking for them; and, somehow, I think they must have been present - especially in two, 'Mosquitoes' that I repaired.


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## Garyshome

The one I have! Ruger LCP


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## SNAGG

I have owned two Beretta Cheetah 85s over the years & love this weapon. I have large hands & find the ergonomics great. It is large & heavy enough to shoot rapidly & accurately, yet light & small enough to carry comfortably & concealed all day.

Does anyone know where I could find either laser grips or a laser guide rod for this? Beretta makes laser grips & guide rods for the 92 series, but haven't found anything for the 84/85 series. Thanks!


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## Swampguy

Like others on here, in the .380 caliber, I prefer the Sig 238. Due to arthritis, my wife had to trade her Remington 380 because of the long trigger pull and after much searching and trying just about every .380 around, she decided on the Sig 238 for concealed carry and now loves it. It works for her, fits her hand well, and she shoots it very accurately. She loves those rosewood grips. Being and old Colt 1911 .45 guy, (own 4, 3 full-size and 1 Colt Officers Model), when I decided to downsize even more, I first went to the 9mm CZP-01 Compact and then the 9mm Sig 938 with extended magazine (+1) as it is like a baby 1911 to me. I also now have a Sig P238 (.380) as it is more concealable when one wants to be a bit more sneaky. I put different rubber-like Hogue grips on mine and with the extended magazine (+1), I can hang on to it and shoot it pretty well. Together, we can put lots of lead in the air fairly accurately. Works for me, but I can see where those who don't like 1911 style handguns would not like it. Mostly though, I carry the P938.

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

Cheers


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## Squid

I've currently got three pistols chanbered for .380ACP: A TCP, G42, and P238. I've located a used P230, and I'm saving my pennies for that. The TCP is a great concealed carry weapon, but the ergonomics on it stink. The G42 is a great little gun, and I love it. But the P238... swee-eet!... especially with the VZ hyena grips. I don't care for bulky guns, and really won't cary anything bigger than a Makarov, so my P238 gets a lot of carry. Love it.


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## BigCityChief

I just picked up a Browning 1911-380 and love it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## desertman

I've got a Walther PPK/S, Kimber Micro Carry "Raptor", Sig P238HD all stainless and a Remington RM380. 

I like the Remington only because it's a DAO and is the lightest and smallest of the bunch. It's modeled after the Rohrbaugh .380. I rarely carry a .380 though.

The Sig P238HD is the best made followed by the Walther. The DA trigger on the Walther is horrible, long and heavy and I mean HEAVY.


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## paratrooper

Beretta 84BB. 

Extremely well-crafted. :smt023


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## Cait43

Sig Sauer P238


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## KSDeputy

I carry a Ruger Custom LCP around the farm. I have Walthers and a Bersa, but the little Ruger fits in my pocket. If I drop it, I have not messed up a very expensive pistol, such as a PPK.


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## Greybeard

I pocket carry a Taurus TCP. Mine had issues tripping the last round hold back before the mag was empty. I ended up filing off the tab and not worrying about it. I carry it in a Barson leather pocket holster. The other day I held and dry fired a Ruger LCP II. It is about the same size as the TCP and is much nicer all the way around. It is a single action hammer fired with a smooth trigger. I liked it so much that I'm considering replacing my TCP with the new LCP II. I also have a LC9s and full size M&P 9mm. I bought the LC9s with the intention of pocket carrying it but, it is just a little too big and heavy for me to pocket carry. I know that .380 is a compromise round but, the bigger guns won't do me much good if I'm not carrying them. I have also look at and like the Kahr .380 and Beretta Pico


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## Greybeard

LCPII-5 by TOM STRAIGHT, on Flickr

Just bought this one today. $239 at 2nd Amendment Sports in Morgantown WV. It has a better trigger than any other of these type little guns and I've tried most if not all of them. I'm taking it to the range tomorrow and putting a few boxes through it.


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## Babbalou1956

I looked up the SIG P232 & was surprised to see it discontinued. 2015 was its last year but it stuck around nearly 4 decades. Always liked the looks. Anyway, my personal choice for a 380 is my Beretta Pico. I shot 2 other true DAO 380s & liked the trigger best on the Pico. The grip looks shrink wrapped around the magazine, like holding a cigarette lighter with 1 1/2 fingers. I couldn't hit squat with it first time out. I trimmed the longer magazine for a 2 finger hold & put on a slip-on grip so it's ok now at 7 yards. Strictly a BUG. If I carried a 380 as my primary EDC it wouldn't be a Pico. I'd want something larger & also DAO, just a preference.


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## berettatoter

hideit said:


> thanks again SHIPWRECK AND STEVEM1911A1
> I already own 3 pocket pistols and a 1911 NIB west point pistol that i don't want to break in
> 
> did some more research today and that colt pocket hammerless has about the same dimensions and weight as the Cheetah but it is a lot more expensive if you can find one. and I wouldn't want to carry a collector's gun.
> That Cheetah has almost identical dimensions as a glock 19!
> However recoil and over penetration are two reasons I like the 380.
> what started off as a little research from Patrick Sweeney's comment in the latest issue of G&A magazine has resulted in a new gun on my purchase list.
> now i gotta hold the cheetah 84 and 85 to see which feels better in the hand.


I don't believe Beretta makes the single stack 85 anymore, but they most certainly make the 84....watch out, they are pricey.


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## Blackhawkman

The Glock 42.....? It fits my large hand and I can shoot it accurately & CC. jmho


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## MoMan

If I'm carrying a .380, it's my SIG P238 in a pocket holster. I also have a Bersa T380, which is an incredible handgun for the price. It has NEVER given me any problems over the 8+ years I have owned it. 

If I do not have to pocket carry, I am usually CC-ing either a G19, Gen 5, if i am not trying to deep conceal carry, otherwise it is a Springfield XD-S 3.3", 9mm.


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## Outlaw

There are some good, expensive 380's on the market, I'll stick with my 2 basics that go boom EVERYTIME. The LCP and the Bodyguard.


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## Steve M1911A1

We just had our P-3AT expensively modified by Galloway Precision.
The improvement is stunning, and seems to be worth the price. (The shipping is almost the same price as the work.)

The P-3AT's two major drawbacks are the shape of its trigger and the strength of its mainspring. They work together to decisively pinch the shooter's finger.
Galloway Precision replaces both parts, and, _voila_, the pinch is gone!


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## Craigh

I like my Ruger LCP II about as well as any mouse gun. It's single action pull is way nicer than my LCP. I still don't find it fun to shoot at the range to practice with, but at least I am combat accurate with it, something I just couldn't seem to master well with the LCP where I was lucky to be Minute of Paper. That was with considerable concentration. Without that concentration, I might be Minute of Barn Door. That's not good under stress. 

Quite honestly, I listened to Steve because I valued his thinking and he seemed to have some aging issues I also experience. I thought about what he and his wife used. I know he didn't choose what I did, but he influenced me into looking at older handguns for carry. I bought a minty Bulgarian Makarov and now love it. It shoots a slightly larger round than .380 (9x17) by one millimeter, the 9x18 and the same bullet. Initially, I had a hard time finding modern defensive ammo, but Hornady came out with their Critical Defense line with the flex tip 95 grain hollow point for the Makarov and all is now well. It has become my small EDC of choice. With shorts and a tee-shirt, I go back to the LCP II and for heavier clothing, I move up to my Shield or even my PPQ. 

PS: Speer makes the excellent Got Dot bullet which can be hand-loaded, and several other companies make defensive JHP ammunition for the Makarov like PPU, Buffalo Bore and Underwood. I'd love if Speer made complete Gold Dot ammunition in that round.


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## hideit

new to me is that S&W has made a full size 380 
the M&P shield 380 EZ

has anyone shot this and their thoughts......


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## crewchief

With all of the small nines out there now I would not ever carry a 9mm kurtz.....


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## Steve M1911A1

crewchief said:


> With all of the small nines out there now I would not ever carry a 9mm kurtz.....


Wait until the arthritis hits...
Or maybe PMR (polymyalgia rheumatica).

Then tell me that.


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## Craigh

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Wait until the arthritis hits...
> Or maybe PMR (polymyalgia rheumatica).
> 
> Then tell me that.


You ain't just whistling Dixie, Brother Steve. There are some days where there is no way I'd go to the range with any handgun because of my pain levels, and also because much of the feeling has gone out of my hands. That sounds counter intuitive to many people. They ask, "how can you be in agonizing pain yet claim to have no feeling in that same place." Believe me, you can. The Neurologist did a study on the half of my hands controlled by the Ulnar nerve (radial nerve on the other half). Just lightly touching caused severe pain that morning, yet I couldn't even feel a needle he stabbed into me. The same goes for one or both feet and/or legs when an attack hits about twice per day. Right now this moment, it's pretty good with pain levels at around average at maybe a 4 or 5 and zero feeling in the Ulnar area and right foot. I know. Strange, but such is life.

Fortunately, the ulnar nerve controls the pinkie finger part of your hand and wrist or I'd have to give up shooting altogether. On rare occasions when both sides of the hand kick in, I can't shoot at all. Hopefully, no uninvited guests will appear when that's going on or I'd just have to yell, Bang Bang and trip them with my walker. 

My two primary carry guns are my LCP II and 9mm Shield for good days. I gave my Makorov to my daughter and am looking for another. It was close to perfect for the not so good days. It is a slight bit more punchy than .380, but more importantly, the gun is a little bigger and heavier than my LCP II. She loves it and I agree. What a great gun. That Makorov is the only handgun my son in law or I've been able to get he to carry consistently and also to practice with. That makes it worth it to me to give up.

Another fantastic choice for some of us with these types of issues, I've found to be Browning's 1911-380. I've shot my cousin's fairly extensively and Wow, it's about a perfect combination of low recoil, weight, and being easy to rack. With modern ammunition, I think it's just acceptable and a lot better than no gun. In fact, I'm considering two of them. One in 380 and the other in rimfire for tin cans and soda bottles.


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## berettatoter

crewchief said:


> With all of the small nines out there now I would not ever carry a 9mm kurtz.....


Right, but sometimes, some of those small 9's can be punishing....I have a couple that are.


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## bambam

Pretty much already discussed, but I'll reiterate...it defeats the purpose of having a .380 ACP (small size and conceal-ability) to have it in a medium or large frame. In that case you would have a more effective weapon by also moving up in caliber/power. There would be no advantage to having .380 ACP in a medium to large frame. 

Although I'm skeptical of the usefulness of the .380 ACP, mostly because of the availability of 9 mm guns that are similar in size, my choice for a .380 ACP gun would be the Sig P-238 hands down. Very smooth, easy to rack and very accurate. Especially good CC gun for women that have difficulty with larger guns.


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## Steve M1911A1

bambam said:


> ...it defeats the purpose of having a .380 ACP (small size and conceal-ability) to have it in a medium or large frame...


Don't make definitive statements until you have all of the necessary information.

When you get older, and arthritis or PMR strikes, you will find yourself quite thankful for a medium- or large-frame .380 pistol.
Its size and hand-filling shape helps to absorb the recoil impulse, which is enough in even a .380 to be quite painful to an older person or frail woman.

Both my wife and I were quite expert with .45 ACP pistols, including a lovely "shortie."
But now, in old age and with painful joints, my M.1903 Colt's Pocket Hammerless (in .380) is the perfect self-defense weapon for me.
And my wife is thinking hard about the S&W M&P .380 Shield EZ (to replace her Kel-Tec P-3AT).

Accurate bullet placement is more important than mere caliber.
And we are both still quite competently accurate, as well as smooth and quick.


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## VAMarine

I'm about sold on the Shield EZ just to set aside for later in life. Get one now, set it up how I like with holster, sights etc and just stash it.

The Sig 238 leaves alot to be desired. If they could keep the slide stops from falling out, that would be a good start.



Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## bambam

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Don't make definitive statements until you have all of the necessary information.
> 
> When you get older, and arthritis or PMR strikes, you will find yourself quite thankful for a medium- or large-frame .380 pistol.
> Its size and hand-filling shape helps to absorb the recoil impulse, which is enough in even a .380 to be quite painful to an older person or frail woman.
> 
> Both my wife and I were quite expert with .45 ACP pistols, including a lovely "shortie."
> But now, in old age and with painful joints, my M.1903 Colt's Pocket Hammerless (in .380) is the perfect self-defense weapon for me.
> And my wife is thinking hard about the S&W M&P .380 Shield EZ (to replace her Kel-Tec P-3AT).
> 
> Accurate bullet placement is more important than mere caliber.
> And we are both still quite competently accurate, as well as smooth and quick.


You're absolutely correct! I went off ill informed and um...half cocked. Certain medical conditions do indeed create the need for alternative choices. Thank you for setting me straight on this.


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## Steve M1911A1

We endeavour to please, sir! -Jeeves (P.G. Woodhouse)


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