# Question for the 1911 "HATERS" out there



## emax123 (Aug 18, 2015)

Scenario: 

You've woken up in a world where the only handgun produced was the 1911 variant. No revolvers, no striker fired, only Browning's beautiful 100 year-old design. If you HAD to do it, what make and model would it be? 

(Demolition Man movie tribute question, "now every restaurant is Taco Bell".)

I figured why not save up for the 1911 that even the haters would want.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

It would be the only 1911 I've ever owned that didn't malfunction. Wilson CQB.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Yeah, Wilson here too for the most part.

Runner ups
SACS Professional 
Dan Wesson Valor
Springfield TRP Operator


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## emax123 (Aug 18, 2015)

win231 said:


> It would be the only 1911 I've ever owned that didn't malfunction. Wilson CQB.


J.H.C!!!! I just looked that up. Thats $3500 handgun!! Are you really telling me that the only 1911 worth a damb is $3500?
I might have to add $1200 limit to the question. I take that back. What I will add is "and why". How do you mean "the only one the worked".
How many rounds on average between each malfunction?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Hmmm under $1200??? I shudder at the thought.

I guess if I had to, the Ruger Night Watchman.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm not a 'hater', but did sell the only one I've owned, and don't expect to buy another. If I were to do so it would probably be a Ruger, if only because I would expect them to make right whatever wasn't.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I have owned ten different 1911s since the 90s. Even had two ED Brown Special Forces (about $2.2-2.3k) and a $3k Springfield Custom Shop Gun (the custom shop is not the same as a production Springer).

My favorite 1911 out of all 10 is actually the only one I still own... A stainless govt sized Dan Wesson Valor.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I'll take a WW2, G.I., any-maker, M1911A1, modified with the addition of a M1911 trigger (_i.e._, long) and a M1911 mainspring housing (_i.e._, flat). Seven magazines, total.
...And any decent .30-'06 rifle.

Don't forget the rifle.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

emax123 said:


> J.H.C!!!! I just looked that up. Thats $3500 handgun!! Are you really telling me that the only 1911 worth a damb is $3500?
> I might have to add $1200 limit to the question. I take that back. What I will add is "and why". How do you mean "the only one the worked".
> How many rounds on average between each malfunction?


You may have seen prices on their more expensive models. The CQB retails for $2,900 currently. When I bought mine in 2003 it was $1,900.00. Yes, that's what it costs for a hand fitted, reliable 1911 that is not made with cheap MIM or cast parts.

When I say "The only one that didn't malfunction," I've owned a Kimber Gold Match & three Colts. They all functioned....about 70% of the time. The Wilson never malfunctioned in 6,600 rounds. Interesting that at the time I bought the Kimber Gold Match, it was almost as pricey as the Wilson.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Any old series-70 Colt, or a series-70 Gold Cup. I had one of each of these that ran like clockwork back in the 80s, and before I found out how rare a good accurate and reliable 1911A1 .45 was, I traded them for other shiny toys. Bad move. I've also seen several reliable-out-of-the-box examples of the Ruger 1911A1, and I generally prefer stainless over blue steel nowadays, so that might be another good choice. Whichever pistol it was, I'd also add a double-handfull of Wilson mags and some quality ammo, set it up like Steve described above (flat mainspring housing and a long trigger), perhaps along with a _slightly_ oversize safety and slide release, and I'd be good to go.

And with that problem solved, I'd set out to re-invent the Glock and get it back in production... :mrgreen:


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I've had a few different 1911s. The S&W Series 'E' guns have improvements over the original 1911A1 that I think are _really worth while_ and not just fluff to drive up the price. This one is my preferred carry. So I have a gun that runs all the time and I spent $1100 or you could spend $3000 on a gun that runs all the time. Somebody explain to me why the extra $1900 makes sense. For that matter, why spend more than $650 for a Ruger?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Spike12 said:


> ...The S&W Series 'E' guns have improvements over the original 1911A1 that I think are _really worth while_ and not just fluff to drive up the price...


Doesn't the S&W "1911" have an external, pivoting extractor, rather than Colt's original internal, spring steel extractor?
If my memory is correct, about the S&W, I would have to say that it's not an improvement at all.
The original internal extractor is, I strongly believe, far superior to the external version.

The external extractor adds at lest two more parts to the gun: its pivot pin and its spring.
The external extractor is not field-replaceable, and certainly requires tools to replace and adjust, while the internal version just slips out, and can be either tuned or replaced without tools.
The external extractor cannot be easily adjusted, requiring tools and a difficult disassembly procedure, while you can bend and reset the internal version simply and without tools.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Loving my sig 1911 traditional ss.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Doesn't the S&W "1911" have an external, pivoting extractor, rather than Colt's original internal, spring steel extractor?
> If my memory is correct, about the S&W, I would have to say that it's not an improvement at all.
> The original internal extractor is, I strongly believe, far superior to the external version.
> 
> ...


The overly average person doesn't know how to adjust an extractor anyway. So, for a vast majority of people, this is a non issue. Plus, S&W seems to be the first out of anyone who got the external extractor right on the 1911. If I wanted one of their guns, this wouldn't stop me.

They had a routine of problems concerning the plunger tube coming off all the time when they first started making 1911s. But that issue has been resolved now.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

What I find curious is the "haters" comment in the subject line. Some people are not interested in the 1911. When I first got into guns in 92-93, all I was interested in were Glocks. I didn't get into 1911s until around 1997. It actually held no interest for me until I kept seeing one on my favorite show at the time - Nash Bridges. It was in 1997 that I bought my first 1911.

So, some people don't like the design. Although, once they try shooting one, many people fall in love with them.

But - just because something doesn't interest you doesn't make someone a hater. Now, I admit that I AM a Taurus hater 

And, I don't personally like CZs. I don't hate them, but I have no interest in them. They do zero for me, and I will never buy one. There are several other brands like that for me. But for example... Why must some CZ super fan have to assume I am a "hater"? The same with someone who doesn't care for the 1911 design. It may not interest someone. So what....

I will never buy a revolver. They hold no interest in me. I grew up as a teen in the 1980s. Just like people older than me like the revolver because they grew up seeing all the westerns on tv and had to have one... I grew up in the age of the semi autos being the thing. I just don't care to own a revolver. Am I now a "hater"? I never talk bad about revolvers, but I won't own one...

Just an example....


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Shipwreck said:


> The overly average person doesn't know how to adjust an extractor anyway. So, for a vast majority of people, this is a non issue. Plus, S&W seems to be the first out of anyone who got the external extractor right on the 1911. If I wanted one of their guns, this wouldn't stop me.
> 
> They had a routine of problems concerning the plunger tube coming off all the time when they first started making 1911s. But that issue has been resolved now.


I've never understood the need for "adjusting" a spring steel extractor. My Uzi has the exact same type of extractor as a 1911's internal extractor. I've never adjusted it & it has over 24,000 rounds through it....without a single malfunction. It is the original extractor that came with the gun, purchased new in 1980. I've taken it out every few thousand rounds to clean it & clean the extractor channel.

I think if spring steel is properly heat treated, it would never go out of adjustment in normal use. It barely has to bend during firing.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Match shooters like to be able to adjust the throw of their pistols' extractors.
Sometimes it's because they want to avoid the possibility of receiving a hot empty down a shirt neck.
Sometimes it's as a courtesy to the shooter standing next to them.
There are other reasons too, some having to do with headspace (particularly in the .45 ACP).


Although you may not believe it, extractors occasionally break. (It has happened to me.)
The Browning-designed internal extractor of the original 1911 is instantly hand-replaceable, as long as you have, or can scrounge, another extractor.
Replacing a broken or chipped external extractor is a difficult job, usually requiring a bench vise, at least one punch, and a lot of care.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

emax123 said:


> Scenario:
> 
> You've woken up in a world where the only handgun produced was the 1911 variant. No revolvers, no striker fired, only Browning's beautiful 100 year-old design. If you HAD to do it, what make and model would it be?
> 
> ...


I don't recall any posts from 1911 "Haters" here. I honestly believe that there is an unspoken reverence for the 1911 around here. My one and only was a S.A. G.I. Milspec style, and I loved it.
I don't know that I will replace it any time soon, but it won't be because of hate.

GW


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## emax123 (Aug 18, 2015)

Shipwreck said:


> I have owned ten different 1911s since the 90s. Even had two ED Brown Special Forces (about $2.2-2.3k) and a $3k Springfield Custom Shop Gun (the custom shop is not the same as a production Springer).
> 
> My favorite 1911 out of all 10 is actually the only one I still own... A stainless govt sized Dan Wesson Valor.


That's a pretty lady.


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## emax123 (Aug 18, 2015)

goldwing said:


> I don't recall any posts from 1911 "Haters" here. I honestly believe that there is an unspoken reverence for the 1911 around here. My one and only was a S.A. G.I. Milspec style, and I loved it.
> I don't know that I will replace it any time soon, but it won't be because of hate.
> 
> GW


I'm glad to read this. I haven't been part of the "gun culture" for very long, but one thing I never can understand are the people who are one or the other. If you like glocks well then you should hate Springfields. If you love 1911s you hate the polymer wonders. AK47 or AR 15. 9mm vs the .45 vs the .40. I guess it gives us something to talk about but honestly, I love it all. Unfortunately I can't afford to have it all so I ask questions like these. So I can make the best decision on what for me is a major purchase. If I spend that much coin on gun and doesn't work!!! Well, I may end up joining the "Negative Nancy Club" (James Yeager, founder and President). I really don't want that to happen.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

emax123 said:


> I'm glad to read this. I haven't been part of the "gun culture" for very long, but one thing I never can understand are the people who are one or the other. If you like glocks well then you should hate Springfields. If you love 1911s you hate the polymer wonders. AK47 or AR 15. 9mm vs the .45 vs the .40. I guess it gives us something to talk about but honestly, I love it all. Unfortunately I can't afford to have it all so I ask questions like these. So I can make the best decision on what for me is a major purchase. If I spend that much coin on gun and doesn't work!!! Well, I may end up joining the "Negative Nancy Club" (James Yeager, founder and President). I really don't want that to happen.


Not a hater but I love my Glocks!

GW


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## miketx60 (Jul 20, 2015)

I bought a Springfield Armory full size 1911a1 in 2004 for 450.00. It has yet to suffer a malfunction. The only thing that has happened is that a 40 dollar Chip McCormack mag failed in it after 100 rounds.

This is it:









I bought the grips at Amazon.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Well if I _had_ to get another ...... Singer 1911a1 with a trigger shoe.

To replace my Springfield millspec.

Interesting how the 1911 is one of those iconic designs that can work for secret agents, scientist, cowboys, steampunk ... and the Phantom. (although he later traded for high capacity)


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

emax123 said:


> Scenario:
> 
> You've woken up in a world where the only handgun produced was the 1911 variant. No revolvers, no striker fired, only Browning's beautiful 100 year-old design. If you HAD to do it, what make and model would it be?
> 
> ...


just 1--really?

hard to do

I would have to limit my choices to the following

ed brown kobra vs wilson CQB vs NHC shadowhawk-- I guess if I have to take 1--forget it I cannot do that---LOL I Love all of my 1911s(and all of my guns)

the way Co -Nazi-cut is going I may only be left with my 1911s and my revolvers and no ammo soon


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

emax123 said:


> J.H.C!!!! I just looked that up. Thats $3500 handgun!! Are you really telling me that the only 1911 worth a damb is $3500?
> I might have to add $1200 limit to the question. I take that back. What I will add is "and why". How do you mean "the only one the worked".
> How many rounds on average between each malfunction?


what malfunction? the reason you buy a wc, nhc, ed brown or even a Dan wesson is to NOT experience malfunctions as much as to enjoy shooting such fine weapons


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## USNA85 (Feb 2, 2016)

I "grew up" on the real GI 1911 (trained and qual'd on it in the military) and love the platform! I know it can be finicky and more complicated than other models, but if you "know and love" it, it will serve you well AND you can fix damn near any problem in the field. The military designs were intentionally a little "loose" to allow for for a mix and match parts approach from different manufacturers. This meant a small sacrifice in accuracy for a big return in reliability and repairability. I have had very good experience with guns as varied as LLama (yes, I loved my Llama - reliable, accurate, etc., while some people hate them and question the quality of the metal), Springfield, Colt, etc. For my money, for a range gun, I like the Springfield Range Officer (lots of upgrades and very similar quality to their higher end models at a lower price). For home defense, I'd be comfortable with any Springfield, Colt, Wesson, Rock River (good luck finding one!), or the like.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Doesn't the S&W "1911" have an external, pivoting extractor, rather than Colt's original internal, spring steel extractor?
> If my memory is correct, about the S&W, I would have to say that it's not an improvement at all.
> The original internal extractor is, I strongly believe, far superior to the external version.
> 
> ...


I leave such fine OCD points to the engineers. I've read threads which support the external extractor but then I'm with you, the internal one seems to work just fine too. But considering all the other pluses of the E models, I didn't see something that, to me, makes no difference as a deal breaker. Things like the trigger, undercut, fit/finish, mag well, sites, etc. and value came first, JMHO (and my $$).

I really don't see where somebody can functionally show me where a $3500 gun is 3x better than my S&W 'E' in any area that truly counts..


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

USNA85 said:


> I "grew up" on the real GI 1911 (trained and qual'd on it in the military) and love the platform! I know it can be finicky and more complicated than other models, but if you "know and love" it, it will serve you well AND you can fix damn near any problem in the field. The military designs were intentionally a little "loose" to allow for for a mix and match parts approach from different manufacturers. This meant a small sacrifice in accuracy for a big return in reliability and repairability. I have had very good experience with guns as varied as LLama (yes, I loved my Llama - reliable, accurate, etc., while some people hate them and question the quality of the metal), Springfield, Colt, etc. For my money, for a range gun, I like the Springfield Range Officer (lots of upgrades and very similar quality to their higher end models at a lower price). For home defense, I'd be comfortable with any Springfield, Colt, Wesson, Rock River (good luck finding one!), or the like.


You had my attention,very high marks ,up until the llama ,lol.


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## nrd515525 (Feb 12, 2007)

Honestly, I would probably just not collect/shoot handguns any more. Seriously. I don't hate 1911s, but I have no real love for them. I can think of a whole lot of .45ACP guns I would, and did buy other than a 1911. But if I had one, it would be the old Colt "klunker" that looks like crap, but shoots great a friend's dad gave him years ago. It's rough, but shoots anything. But I would rather have a CZ97B, an S&W 4506, or my only present .45, a SAR K2 45 than a new 1911. All the money saved buys a lot of ammo. A better price, and probably less headaches is a winning combo.


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## Desertrat (Apr 26, 2007)

I'll have to go with a Colt or a Dan Wesson.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

nrd515525 said:


> Honestly, I would probably just not collect/shoot handguns any more. Seriously. I don't hate 1911s, but I have no real love for them. I can think of a whole lot of .45ACP guns I would, and did buy other than a 1911. But if I had one, it would be the old Colt "klunker" that looks like crap, but shoots great a friend's dad gave him years ago. It's rough, but shoots anything. But I would rather have a CZ97B, an S&W 4506, or my only present .45, a SAR K2 45 than a new 1911. All the money saved buys a lot of ammo. A better price, and probably less headaches is a winning combo.


The 1911 trigger is one of the best , 
I haven't heard anybody ever modify their 1911 trigger to feel more like CZ, GLOCK,ETC.


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## nrd515525 (Feb 12, 2007)

Really, triggers have never been all that important to me, as long as they aren't insanely hard to pull, like my AMT Back-Up .45 was, close to 30 pounds out of the box, and still bad after some polishing! Or have sharp edges or grooves. I don't like the grip of the 1911 at all, it's too narrow vs it's depth. The SAR K2 grip is great, IMHO, as are pretty much all CZ based guns. I don't have big hands, BTW.


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

I would grab my Ruger SR1911 CMD. I sold my Custom Kimber, and kept this one. I had to try a few at my LGS before selecting this one with a butter smooth trigger. 














Obviously there are other platform choices, but being limited to a 1911, I would stake my life on this pistol. It has been totally reliable, w/o even a hiccup in the past 2-3 years. I would put the number of rounds through it at probably 1,400 to 1,500. I realize that's not a lot, but it certainly is enough for me to have total confidence.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

nrd515525 said:


> ...my AMT Back-Up .45 was, close to 30 pounds out of the box, and still bad after some polishing!...


Um, make that maybe 15 pounds at worst, and maybe 13 pounds after polishing.
Mine is off the scale of a normal pull gauge, but not that far off of it.

I don't find my AMT .45 Backup all that difficult to control and manage, but then, I've had a lot of practice.
I had to lay off of it for a couple of years, with pain that I thought was arthritis. But now that it's being controlled with medication, I plan to go back to my little "pocket protector."


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

emax123 said:


> J.H.C!!!! I just looked that up. Thats $3500 handgun!! Are you really telling me that the only 1911 worth a damb is $3500?
> I might have to add $1200 limit to the question. I take that back. What I will add is "and why". How do you mean "the only one the worked".
> How many rounds on average between each malfunction?


its only a 2800 dollar gun--the cqb elite is the 3500 dollar model--lol

and per your request you said something about saving for one that other would not hate>>>>wilson is that gun


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