# Who uses FMJ for carry?



## Mdnitedrftr (Aug 10, 2006)

Is there anything wrong with carrying FMJ in a daily carry gun? I was just thinking, what do I need fancy super ultra heat-seeking, exploding, +++++++++P+ ammo for? A bullet is gonna put a hole in something no matter what. Am I right?


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

You are 100% right. A hit with a .45 slug will slow down or stop any human and a follow up should put them out of action. I carry FMJs all the time.


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## madmag (Jan 29, 2007)

FMJ is all I use for .45ACP carry. I use Gold Dot 9mm 124g +p in my XD9.


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with FMJ for daily carry...but here is why premium ammo is more desirable...

FMJ is more lilkey to exit the body. This will make 2 holes, not just 1 in the bad guy. Also, FMJ makes smaller holes, so the trauma is less intense. This can be good for the bad guy, and bad for you...in addition, if the bullets are leaving the bad guy, they may go on to hit other people.

Overall, it is in your best interests if the bad guy lives...you want to STOP him, but not kill him. By making two holes in his body with each bullet, you increase the chances of him bleeding out (some would say). But with premium hollow points, you cause more damage to the body, and in turn, may have a better chance of killing him...

It is almost a wash...but I still think that defensive ammo (JHP) are better than FMJ for stopping bad guys.

Notice how the people in this thread who use FMJ defensively use them in a .45ACP. The larger, slower bullet of a .45ACP give it less chance of overpenetration. Also, since the .45ACP is already bigger than a 9mm...it does not need to expand as much to cause similar damage.

To sum up...if cost is an issue, go with the FMJ...FMJ is better than throwing the gun at them...but if you can afford the JHP premium loads...they are better for the intended purpose.

Just note that you likely run greater liability risks with FMJ over JHP...and try NOT to miss when you fire :smt023


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I carry it in 32 because JHP doesn't penetrate as well and doesn't expand in that caliber reliably anyway.

I think in 9mm and some other rounds, it is irresponsible to carry FMJ - it will definetly over penetrate and U could have a potential of the round hitting someone else. Also, when a round goes thru someone, it doesn't always trvel in a straight line from the gun it fired out of. Sometimes the trajectory changes due to bone, etc.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

*Go figure.*



bangbang said:


> There is nothing wrong with FMJ for daily carry...but here is why premium ammo is more desirable...
> 
> FMJ is more lilkey to exit the body. This will make 2 holes, not just 1 in the bad guy. Also, FMJ makes smaller holes, so the trauma is less intense. This can be good for the bad guy, and bad for you...in addition, if the bullets are leaving the bad guy, they may go on to hit other people.
> 
> ...


 Now can you tell me why it's in my best interest that the BG should live? You want him to live but you are going to shoot him with hollow points? Your not connecting the dots here. If you read your post you sound like a dog chasing it's tail.


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

Baldy said:


> Now can you tell me why it's in my best interest that the BG should live? You want him to live but you are going to shoot him with hollow points? Your not connecting the dots here. If you read your post you sound like a dog chasing it's tail.


It is best if he lives to avoid wrongful death civil lawsuits...besides, why would you want to go around knowing that you killed someone...self defense or not...you do NOT want to kill people.

As for hollow points vs FMJ for tissue damage...I mentioned that already in my post...the FMJ will make an entrance and exit hole while the JHP will likley only make an entrance hole. That being said, the wound channel casued by the JHP will be larger...so I mentioned that it is almost a "wash" in this respect. The extra hole from the FMJ could result in more blood loss...but the expansion from the hollow point bullet is more likley to hit a vital organ...as mentioned...that point is almost a wash...

Overpenetration is regarded by the masses as seomthing undesirable. I am not going to argue that point with you here...read up on it if you want to learn more.

As far as the dabate regarding killing someone vs stopping him...feel free to retort...I am sure that I can come up with a few more reason why the assailant should be kept alive.

Bottom line:

JHP is better for self defense than FMJ for most instances.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

When someone is coming at me to do great harm to me, I am going to stop him in anyway I can. That means stop the threat and if I shoot him I am not going to worry about killing him as I am sure that's what he had on his mine for me. I am not going to try and second guess some BG in the heat of the moment when my life or my familys life is on the line. I know every bullet has a lawyers name on it but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

*.45's aren't magic*

I usually don't carry FMJ, but I have, with guns that had not yet been proven reliable with my regular carry ammo. (.45 ACP, wouldn't carry FMJ in anything less.)
Right when they stopped production, I bought a few boxes of Hornady FMJ Flat Points. I often have those in my spare mag, in case I need to reload because of a malfunction. As reliable as round nose FMJ, but maybe slightly better stopping power with the flat point -- at least one can hope.
.45's are not magic. I have no faith that a well-placed .45 FMJ, or JHP, or anything, will incapacitate somebody. I know a fellow who shot himself accidentally with FMJ, and didn't know it. Bullet hit his collarbone, turned 90 degrees, and came out the top of his shoulder. The noise scared him, but it took him a minute to realize he had been shot (when he saw the blood). But, he was not incapacitated.
I saw a video of a local police shooting where the BG, body-builder type, took 2 well-placed hits in the torso from a .40 JHP, then led police on a car chase, holed up in an apartment for a few hours, then walked out to the ambulance under his own power.
A friend of mine, small-town cop, took two .44 Mags (Rem. 180 JHP) through and through the torso, got knocked off his feet, but was still busy trying to clear his jammed Glock when the backups arrived.
There was a story in the newspaper just the other day about a guy who took a load of 00B in the chest (police, domestic dispute call), returned fire, ran inside the house, and bled to death.
Torso shots, with .45 or anything else, are just what you do to stay busy until a head shot opportunity comes along.


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

Baldy said:


> When someone is coming at me to do great harm to me, I am going to stop him in anyway I can. That means stop the threat and if I shoot him I am not going to worry about killing him as I am sure that's what he had on his mine for me. I am not going to try and second guess some BG in the heat of the moment when my life or my familys life is on the line. I know every bullet has a lawyers name on it but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


Given that situation, I may also fire to the head, or other fatal area...like multiple shots to the same spot in the chest near the heart.

I suppose the only real place to kill in the chest is the heart or a main artery right...anything else will simply cause discomfort and slow him down a little...or result in bleeding which can take hours to kill.

I kinda like the idea of a few shots placed at the right shoulder...if done properly, he will have a hard time raising his gun or other weapon at you...of course, he can switch hands...so you gotta be ready to shoot the other shoulder...

I am not at the point where I can deliver 3 aimed bullets to the same spot. I plan to be there this year, and when that happens, I will try to incorporate more drills to get better at shot placement consistancy.

I have a crimson trace laser which is calibrated to 21ft at this time. I think if I shot someone 3 times in the shoulder/chest area, and then put that laser in his face...he would likley "STOP" and give up...you never know though...you may have to kill him.

My genreal policy is that once my gun is on you, and your weapon is not as lethal as mine, I will likely shoot you in a non-lethal zone...I would rather incapacitate than to kill...but if he has a gun pointed at me, my only option would be chest shots followed by a head shot.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Most attacks happen with in 20'. The BG can cover that distance in a heart beat. How many aimed shots are going to get off in that time? If your lucky one that hits him. With your heart pumping, and your blood preasure going out of sight. I ask where's the time to aim at his right shoulder? That why all self defense schools teach COM. Once you pull a gun out you had better be ready to use it. The gun doesn't scare a BG away and neither will that little red dot. Its not a matter of less than lethal. Its a matter of stopping the agression against you or your family.


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

Baldy said:


> Most attacks happen with in 20'. The BG can cover that distance in a heart beat. How many aimed shots are going to get off in that time? If your lucky one that hits him. With your heart pumping, and your blood preasure going out of sight. I ask where's the time to aim at his right shoulder? That why all self defense schools teach COM. Once you pull a gun out you had better be ready to use it. The gun doesn't scare a BG away and neither will that little red dot. Its not a matter of less than lethal. Its a matter of stopping the agression against you or your family.


I think that after being shot a few times, the red dot on his head would in fact scare his ass. But like you said, by the time you fire 3 shots, he will be on you...so those 3 have to count.

I am a 250lb individual, so anyhthing short of a gun or knife being weilded at me is not going to make me automatically use my gun in a manner that will kill. I may not even pull it out right away if all he has is a baseball bat or golf club. Would you shoot someone to kill if he was coming after you with a golf club? I would rather not have to kill someone who came after me with a golf club...even though a golf club can be lethal...it will take a few shots to the head to be deadly.

Instead, I prefer to shoot him in parts of his chest that are not critical...or make it such that he is unable to advance properly in order to use the club on me...like a shot or two to his knees, groin, or lower abdomen.

I do agree with you though...if there is a gun involved, it is likely best to go ahead and kill him on the spot...the legal issues are much less when the bad guy actually has a gun. The less lethal his weapon becomes, the more your lawyer will have to work for you to walk away from the even smelling like roses.

What would you do if someone came after you with a 2X4 or a hammer?


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

*Agression.*



bangbang said:


> I think that after being shot a few times, the red dot on his head would in fact scare his ass. But like you said, by the time you fire 3 shots, he will be on you...so those 3 have to count.
> 
> I am a 250lb individual, so anyhthing short of a gun or knife being weilded at me is not going to make me automatically use my gun in a manner that will kill. I may not even pull it out right away if all he has is a baseball bat or golf club. Would you shoot someone to kill if he was coming after you with a golf club? I would rather not have to kill someone who came after me with a golf club...even though a golf club can be lethal...it will take a few shots to the head to be deadly.
> 
> ...


 I will stop any act of aggression upon me or family anyway I can. That's why I carry a gun is for protection. During the heat of the moment I don't think you will be as cool as you think. If I thought the way you do, I would practice nothing but shoulder shots. Its not going to happen with me. 
I think we have beat this back and forth enough. If you want to wear a dirt overcoat from being beat to death with a golf club, go for it. If I have to spend all I have in court, so be it. My family and me will be alive.:smt1099


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

I've never carried FMJ in my Sig, but I did for a long time with my Bersa. I got some Hornaday last week and that is when that changed. My main concern with FMJ is over penatration. I'm not so much worried about the guy trying to kill as me as I am about the kid that may be five feet behind him. 

On another aspect, as far as the Sig goes, hollow points have been a must since I got her because she's been a working gun since day one and the three jobs we've had required hollow points. FMJ was completely forbiden, and even a fireable offense in my armored slots.


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## mw1311 (Feb 7, 2007)

fmj tends to over-penetrate but is acceptable in .32, .380 & .45. However, I stick with quality hollowpoints for anything bigger then .380


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