# Penetration



## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm tired of all these reports, pictures, and diagrams about the penetration effects of different calibers. Does it really matter. If I'm shot in the chest, wouldn't 6-10 inches of penetration go through my heart? My head isn't 12 inches thick either. My point being a 38, 9mm, and sometimes a 22 penetrates enough.


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## truman565 (Jun 27, 2007)

nailer said:


> My point being a 38, 9mm, and sometimes a 22 penetrates enough.


I think "sometimes" is the key word in that quote. Sure a .22 can penetrate "enough" sometimes but it sounds like you are assuming a straight on shot without any trouble from the ribs. Point being that if the shot placement isn't perfect more caliber might succeed where a lesser caliber would fail. If the person is wearing heavy clothing the bullet is not going to penetrate as far as if they were wearing light clothing. Some hollow points have been shown to have trouble expanding when trying to punch through heavy clothing.Also, if you shot someone in the arm with a .22 I doubt it is going to go through their arm and still have enough punch to get to some vitals in the chest. I mean if you are trying to put a hole through something wouldn't you rather it be a bigger hole then a smaller hole?

Once again, as with a lot on this forum, personal preference plays a large role. Some people would rather not bother with a gun so they don't carry. Some people feel fine carrying a .22 because a .22 can be deadly under the right circumstances. People usually choose a bigger caliber because they want that bullet to be deadly under any circumstances. Whether or not that is valid is always debated and probably always will be. I carry a 9mm. I think it is fine. Some don't so they choose a .40 or .45 or something else. All up to you.


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## knoxrocks222 (May 1, 2008)

thats why i carry a .357sig round, i know my hp will go through thick clothing and still hit my target but not over penetrate


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Someone once compared using a .22 RF or a .25 ACP to using a .45 ACP in a particularly apt way, as follows:
Would you rather be stuck with a needle, or hit with a sledgehammer?
Either one could kill you. Even the needle would be deadly, if it's stuck deeply enough into the right place.
But which of the two would be more likely to make you immediately stop what you're doing?

The point of a defensive weapon is not to kill, _per se_, but to immediately stop the fight.
Your weapon may indeed kill, but that is a secondary consideration. The important function of a defensive weapon is to stop the attack with which you're faced, immediately and before any innocent person is injured.
Therefore, the real criterion for choosing a defensive weapon is its balance, in _your_ hands, of "fight-stopping power" versus your ability to control the delivery system (that is, to make accurate and effective hits). Carry weight and convenience are relatively less important considerations.
Some people can do the job with a .45, some people do it better with a .38 Special, and some people have to get along with a "mere" .22 RF. Nobody I know could do it consistently with a .44 Magnum.

Think about it. :watching:


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## lechwe (Dec 14, 2008)

2 1/2" is all the penetration required to reach the heart. I'd like just a little more to account for clothing and such but you don't need a ton. All the better if your rounds don't exit. You don't need to worry about bystanders being injured that way.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"Reaching the heart" won't instantly stop a fight.
You'll have to wait for your opponent to bleed to death, which could take a long enough time to allow him to cause you no end of misery.

I suppose that multiple, rapid-fire, .22 RF hits might be a fight stopper, but I suggest not depending upon it unless that .22 RF gun is the only thing you have at hand, or it's the only pistol you know how to use well.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

nailer said:


> I'm tired of all these reports, pictures, and diagrams about the penetration effects of different calibers. Does it really matter. If I'm shot in the chest, wouldn't 6-10 inches of penetration go through my heart?


Go with it, if you are sure about all of that.

But here's something to consider. It is fairly common for deer, shot through the heart and lungs with a high-powered rifle, to run off...maybe a hundred yards, maybe a mile. When field dressed, their major organs are jelly, yet they were able to 'continue the fight,' somehow.

Humans mostly don't do that, because they know they are supposed to die, but the attacker you draw may be fueled by some drug that can make a man act like an animal, when hurt...policemen do encounter this occasionally.

And also be aware that most of the people who have survived gunfights advise a person to carry the most powerful gun they can manage.


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## lostsoul (Sep 30, 2008)

When in doubt,10mm. !!:mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

lostsoul said:


> When in doubt,10mm. !!:mrgreen:


No.
When in doubt, practice to make better hits.
It isn't the caliber, or the gun, it's the shooter and his skill.
:croc:


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...practice to make better hits.
> It isn't the caliber, or the gun, it's the shooter and his skill.
> :croc:


+1...practice, practice, and more practice.:smt023


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

I always liked the quote that went something like, "you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight." 

On the same lines as, "a .380 at CoM is much better than a .45 in the dirt."


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

lostsoul said:


> When in doubt,10mm. !!:mrgreen:


They still make these?  hehehe sorry.
Just kidding.. Actually I've been told and have read it was indeed a good round but just didn't catch on with the .40 S&W having similar ballistics. I dunno.. no expert.

But on the subject of penetration, it's only one parameter of the ballistics of any particular round from a particular barrel length at a particular distance..

Penetration itself can be a good thing, and a not-so-good thing depending on the scenario.. In home-defense, probably one of the reasons a lot of folks love the .45 acp.. "They say" (keywords meaning this is hearsay and not my opinion as I'm not qualified to argue nor do I even wanna get into a caliber debate)..

But folks have said to me, that a 9mm in the home can be an issue because of overpenetration reaching through walls.. potentially causing a bad scene if a friendly is in the way, whereas a .45 might not.. I seriously doubt I'd want to test that.. With any caliber .22 on up, I'm sure a couple layers of drywall would stop anything except maybe a spit-wod from a straw. Remember a defendant is responsible for the shot and whereever it goes beyond the intended target.. neighbors, kids, etc.

"know thy target and what is beyond it... Never point thy muzzle at anything or anything beyond what you can see that you're not willing to put holes in."

Knowing that the "placement" parameter is King in stopping an altercation, the other parameter of ballistics I'd be more interested in is "energy".. Whether the round goes through or stops, it's energy deliverance and soft-tissue damage that stop the fight. Experts, feel free to correct me if wrong, as I know I'm no expert on it.. and hope I never have to find out.


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## lostsoul (Sep 30, 2008)

Simply put.the threat is over with a well placed 10mm. All i do is practice ,practice practice.I also have a .45 and 9mm and I feel equally comfortable with any of them.The 10,just makes me smile is all.:mrgreen:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Ah, well...The whole point of life is to enjoy yourself, even if it's with a .40! :mrgreen:


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## StatesRights (May 13, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> "Reaching the heart" won't instantly stop a fight.
> You'll have to wait for your opponent to bleed to death, which could take a long enough time to allow him to cause you no end of misery.
> 
> I suppose that multiple, rapid-fire, .22 RF hits might be a fight stopper, but I suggest not depending upon it unless that .22 RF gun is the only thing you have at hand, or it's the only pistol you know how to use well.


Steve, you're 100% right. I'm a professional firefighter/EMT and I've made calls where someone has been shot in the heart and is still conscience when we get there. Not often, but it does happen. They can be talking to you and not realize they're dead yet. Bummer! 
Heck, I've seen people shot in the head (small caliber bullets) that were still talking.

You need that WALLOP that a large caliber bullet will hit you with.

Any deer hunters? Ever shot a whitetail through the heart or lungs and have to blood trail them for a couple of hundred yards? It happens.


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## gilream (May 5, 2009)

You are so right. I once shot a big whitetail buck at about 40 yards directly in the heart lungs with a fast expanding Nosler Ballistic Tip with a 7mm Rem Mag. He ran flat out for 100 yards before stopping. Field dressing revealed total liquification of his heart/lungs. Amazing


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## steelontarget (Apr 28, 2009)

*10mm*

40 is nothing like 10mm. Most 10 is loaded weak but the full power loads are hard to equal in a handgun unless you go to 357mag or higher.

I am no expert in shooting people or such but it seems the best course is to maximize effect without resorting to a gun that is unsuitable for the task. Ex if you are looking for a carry gun you want anough gun but do not want to carry a cannon. In the home you can have a cannon but you do not want something that is going to kill the invader and people in the next three houses. You want enough gun AND the skill to use it so buy the largest caliber gun that is small enough for you to carry realisticly (if carry is the task) The largest you can control, operate and shoot with skill and practice to maximize the likelyhood of making a good hit when the need comes up. My 45 holds 15 in the mag but I would not want to have to use 15 when one well placed shot would do the job.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

steelontarget said:


> ...I am no expert in shooting people or such but it seems the best course is to maximize effect without resorting to a gun that is unsuitable for the task...You want enough gun AND the skill to use it so buy the largest caliber gun that is small enough for you to carry realisticly (if carry is the task) The largest you can control, operate and shoot with skill and practice to maximize the likelyhood of making a good hit when the need comes up...


_Excellent_ advice! :smt023


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> No.
> When in doubt, practice to make better hits.
> It isn't the caliber, or the gun, it's the shooter and his skill.
> :croc:


In fact... start shooting competetively. NOT JUST SQUARE-RANGE SHOOTING!

My ability to make multiple hits to a 6X11 "A-Zone" at extreme speed, with accuracy, while moving, under stress... has tripled or better in 6 months of shooting USPSA.

The guys who shoot competetively for speed and precision, are hands down, the best "civilian" shooters in the world. As good and better than the Special Forces Operators I've shot with.

For more realism, shoot IDPA, but USPSA still trains you to think on your feet, FAST, focus, make hits, and do it under stress. Shy of man-on-man simunitions training, it's awesome... and it's a blast.

I now outshoot most of the cops I compete with, and I'm sure THEY are better than 99% of their co-workers who carry in harms way every day.

I'll put a USPSA A-Class shooter (with a 9mm) up against virtually any thug-in-the-street any day, with any gun you want... Caliber makes NO difference. It's all skill and training.

JeffWard


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Yup. I agree completely.
(I started in IPSC/SWPL in the mid-1970s.)


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## B Brazier (Sep 30, 2008)

Doesn't the 9mm FMJ penetrate further than most other calibers? Bigger isn't always better, shot placement is the most important thing.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

B Brazier said:


> Doesn't the 9mm FMJ penetrate further than most other calibers? Bigger isn't always better, shot placement is the most important thing.


Penetration, _per se_, is not enough to immediately stop a fight. Indeed, if the bullet goes all the way through, it will have relatively little effect, all by itself.
Not even excellent shot placement will immediately stop a fight, all of the time.
What is required? A combination of shot placement, enough (but not too much) penetration, a bullet carrying lots of momentum (energy), and all of that energy delivered to the target.
If you do a little reasearch in Fackler and Thompson/LaGarde, you will find hints about how much energy needs to be delivered to effect an immediate stop. (There is no absolute answer to this question.)
The diameter of the bullet doesn't matter, as long as it carries with it sufficient energy, and it stops within the target (so it delivers all of its energy).
That said, I must add that intuitively I feel that a bullet of larger diameter, or a bullet that has expanded to a large diameter, will be more effective, all other things being equal.


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## StatesRights (May 13, 2009)

The problem with the fmj is that the bullet goes all the way through the victim, taking all its kinetic energy with it. Plus it'll hit people behind your target and injure them too. My CCW instructor showed us some 9mm fmj that were fired against steel targets and they barely had dents in them. 
You want a bullet that hits, stays inside the target, and dumps all its kinetic energy right there.


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## maddmatt02 (May 2, 2009)

you mean barely a dent in the target because the bullet went right through no problem? how thick of steel was this?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

StatesRights said:


> The problem with the fmj is that the bullet goes all the way through the victim, taking all its kinetic energy with it. Plus it'll hit people behind your target and injure them too. My CCW instructor showed us some 9mm fmj that were fired against steel targets and they barely had dents in them.
> You want a bullet that hits, stays inside the target, and dumps all its kinetic energy right there.


I thought I'd just written that.



maddmatt02 said:


> you mean barely a dent in the target because the bullet went right through no problem? how thick of steel was this?


We're not talking about _steel_ targets.


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## StatesRights (May 13, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I thought I'd just written that.
> 
> We're not talking about _steel_ targets.


Duh! I know that. I meantioned the steel target because there was a question about 9mm fmj and I was making a point that it has TOO MUCH penetration. And when I said "target" and hitting someone behind your "target", I meant the PERSON you were shooting at. When you aim at a person, he/she becomes your target.
I think in these forums, people are so busy criticizing what others say that we lose site of the original purpose in the first place. 
The original comment was about penetration.... and I think 9mm fmj pentrates too much and presents a danger to those behind your intended "target".


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