# 1986 FBI Miami Shootout & Training



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm sure we've all heard of this fateful incident and how it impacted the gun ammunition industry, but I spent some time watching the documentary (parts 1 & 2) and came to a simple conclusion. It seems to me that the FBI was not out gunned, the were out trained. They simply were not ready for the kind of street fight that erupted when they decided to corner a combat veteran with actual advanced combat training and experience.

I've known about this even for a number of years, but never really took the time to look into it. However, after doing so there were so many things that went wrong for the FBI simply b/c they just took a lot of things for granted, made really poor decisions, and just got out fought. That's not to say that they did not fight valiantly, or that they were stupid. They just never expected an old Army Ranger to be ready to fight like he did, and they didn't have ample advanced combat training. Watch the videos from the link below and you'll see what I'm talking about. This gun fight should have ended before it got started. I guess that is the difference btwn federal agents and a determined combat veteran with advanced combat training.

For me, the takeaways are 1. train the best you can, and 2. avoid trouble if you can. I know the police aren't supposed to run from trouble, but it seems to me they really should have reconsidered their options before cornering these two that day.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, if you look at the reports, Matix wasn't much of a factor. Platt was. Matix was a cook in the Marines and a cop in the Army, but Platt was an Army Ranger with experience, and as I said, the FBI was not prepared for the fight that erupted when they decided to corner them. 

Moral of the story? Don't let your false sense of superiority get you killed.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I know. That's what I've said, twice.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thanks for your input!


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Thanks for the link GCBHM. : )


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I have followed this case in one way or another for a long time (over 20 years). The best write-up I have read was by Massad Ayoob in his book, "The Ayoob Files: The Book";

Ayoob Files: The Book: Massad F. Ayoob: 9780936279169: Amazon.com: Books

There are other very good cases in this little handbook as well.

The Miami FBI Shootout led to a number of changes in department ordinance and procedures. The 10mm replaced the 9mm as their standard sidearm. Later, that was changed to the .40S&W because the smaller agents and the females had trouble with the larger framed 10mm guns and the attendant recoil of the cartridge. FBI tactics and training were also changed due to this event, as well they should have been. This single extreme encounter is the most studied and reviewed such event in the U.S. for law enforcement personnel.

Two weeks ago, I wrote this;

*"..One should never underestimate a potential adversary, nor should one discard any information which could give one an advantage should an extreme encounter ensue.

Assuming a threat is better equipped and prepared than you can give you a valuable edge."*

Confidence in your ability and your equipment is one thing. Cockiness and arrogance is an entirely different animal and is dangerous to your welfare and longevity.

There was a good full length movie made about this event in 1988 called "In The Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders" which aired on TV as I recall. Here it is in its entirety;


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

SouthernBoy said:


> Cockiness and arrogance is an entirely different animal and is dangerous to your welfare and longevity.


I notice you and the fellow Southerners above are assuming all this. But then you Southern people have always had a problem with the Feds right.
Try this one on for size, they where doing exactly as procedures had called for in 1986. We did not even have swat at the local levels like we do today. And now even the FBI has their own.

I'll admit I feel somewhat remorseful as labeling them inept, because the truth of it is they weren't.

Bottom line in the end they prevailed, and they prevailed because they never gave up. And had the FBI not engaged them they would have continue on their killing spree and robbing spree. These two people where no doubt low-lives before they ever join the military. And their actions confirmed it.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Thateus said:


> I notice you and the fellow Southerners above are assuming all this. But then you Southern people have always had a problem with the Feds right.
> Try this one on for size, they where doing exactly as procedures had called for in 1986. We did not even have swat at the local levels like we do today. And now even the FBI has their own.
> 
> I'll admit I feel somewhat remorseful as labeling them inept, because the truth of it is they weren't.
> ...


I'm not arguing that they weren't following procedures, in fact I never said or inferred that at all. I only commented that this event resulted in some major changes to procedures and equipment. We could say that the FBI was forced to evolve. This also happened in the early 1930's when they were faced with a whole different type of criminal.

*"I notice you and the fellow Southerners above are assuming all this."*
Assuming what? Did I miss something here in the translation?

*"But then you Southern people have always had a problem with the Feds right."*
You could say that since they invaded our country a little over 150 years ago. But there are other reasons as well.

It is in the American psychic to distrust government. That is normal and natural and the way the nation was founded. Over the last two+ centuries, a good deal of that basic and essential belief has been lost in some parts of the country but still resides healthy and fairly strong in the South... and some other regions as well.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

And evolve they did. But they did Nothing Wrong !
That;s how the game was played back then. It will always be a new game. 
Now they are faced with 'pressure cookers'.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Events like this usually effect the evolution of training and response, much like changes made after the L.A. bank robbery and recent school shootings. Events & current equipment are evaluated and beneficial changes are made to increase the response. 

Before the LA bank robbery incident, most LE Dept's reserved carbine rifles for special units... relying on the pump shotgun for heavy work... now, most officers have one in each patrol car. Before school shooting became common, a perimeter was established until the calvary arrived... now we go in immediately and stop the threat.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

B


Thateus said:


> I notice you and the fellow Southerners above are assuming all this. But then you Southern people have always had a problem with the Feds right.
> Try this one on for size, they where doing exactly as procedures had called for in 1986. We did not even have swat at the local levels like we do today. And now even the FBI has their own.
> 
> I'll admit I feel somewhat remorseful as labeling them inept, because the truth of it is they weren't.
> ...


I posted this so that ppl could talk about training and being prepared, not so you could come in to set everyone straight and insult us "Southerners". You're welcome to contribute, but please do us all a favor and stop trolling.

Thank you!


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

I'll apologize to SouthernBoy only !
Me thinks you may have been hitting that bottle a little hard last night being Friday night and all.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thateus said:


> I'll apologize to SouthernBoy only !
> Me thinks you may have been hitting that bottle a little hard last night being Friday night and all.


I see why you were banned from the other forums. Perhaps you should consider that before you get kicked off this one. Just food for thought.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> Events like this usually effect the evolution of training and response, much like changes made after the L.A. bank robbery and recent school shootings. Events & current equipment are evaluated and beneficial changes are made to increase the response.
> 
> Before the LA bank robbery incident, most LE Dept's reserved carbine rifles for special units... relying on the pump shotgun for heavy work... now, most officers have one in each patrol car. Before school shooting became common, a perimeter was established until the calvary arrived... now we go in immediately and stop the threat.


I find it interesting that the FBI is going back to the 9mm and recommending other LE agencies do so as well. We always had an official debrief message after an exercise or actual situation in the Navy called "Lessons Learned" that discussed every facet of the event, what we did right, what we did wrong, and solicitations for recommendations for changes that would improve the way we work. I know the FBI has learned a lot from this incident, and today they handle things differently from their recruitment to their training to execution on the streets.

Sometimes there is no amount of training one can do to prepare you for what is about to happen, but I do think that the one take away from this situation that could have changed the outcome was to have been more patient and not be too hasty to corner these guys. I know those agents felt they were ready and trained, but looking back, one can see they were underestimating their adversary, and grossly overestimating their own abilities. I hope they've learned that lesson.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

In my opinion the FBI shooting like it happen back than is today impossible.

Like GCBHM already said the LEO had a terrible lack of training. It really doesn't matter if there where soldiers that were cooks, worked in the laundry or was a Ranger. If they were in the streets of Saigon, Hua, Ho City .... they were trained by doing street fights on almost a daily base. If you was there and survived you know all about street fights with handguns.

Thinking back into 1985, the world was different and the today's younger generation can not even imagine how the people lived.
Even criminals had something like morals and honor. That was the times when LEO even in big cities run around with a 32 S&W long round. 
Shootings, if they really happen, where very short and killings on both sides of the fight where rear. A 38 special or a 380 acp was a big round and mostly totally unnecessary to use.

They shoot FMJ because the DumDum (HP) ammo, used by the Russians in WWII, was outlawed because of the damage that this rounds did. It was a different world back than and honor and morals was a life style and not a political correct definition

The FMJ round kills people when the victim is not going to see a doctor. The HP kills people regardless.
They could afford to shoot FMJ because the rounds where not meant to kill. A 32 has a weaker load and don't passes trough Windshields, Body and gypsum walls. The threat was not to shoot to kill, the threat was if you don't quit right now you will die. Even among criminals was killing a person a no go back than.

Platt and Matix was the new kind of criminals. They showed how criminals will act in the future, when lived morals and honor get replaced by political correct definitions of the words.
Platt and Matix showed the world of the future, the criminals of the 90ties. Platt and Matix were just ahead of the time while the LEO didn't even dream what kind of world will be created in the future.
The FBI realized that and responded with heavier firearms and loads that were before than unnecessary. 

I trust a 32 S&W long, a 38 special or a 380 acp with my life, the same way I trust a 9mm luger, 45 or a 40 S&W XTP.
It is all about shot placement. If one of the officers would have taking the time to aim and shoot them in the head, the shooting would be over right than and there, regardless of the bullet type or size.
That is what I see when I read or watch the Platt and Matix incident.

Thanks for reading, it was long again.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

... and yet at the end of the day they prevailed. So much for that lack of training and the arm chair quarterbacks here uh.
Unbelievable !
Completely miss they where following correct procedures and because of that incident adopted new procedures. 
And will forever adapt and adopt as the game continually changes.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thateus said:


> ... and yet at the end of the day they prevailed. So much for that lack of training and the arm chair quarterbacks here uh.
> Unbelievable !
> Completely miss they where following correct procedures and because of that incident adopted new procedures.
> And will forever adapt and adopt as the game continually changes.


Even more compelling is that you deleted your original reply in which you stated how incompetent the FBI was. Convenient.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

I simply returned to my critical thinking skills when I realized who I was talking here with.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Thateus said:


> ... and yet at the end of the day they prevailed. So much for that lack of training and the arm chair quarterbacks here uh.
> Unbelievable !
> Completely miss they where following correct procedures and because of that incident adopted new procedures.
> And will forever adapt and adopt as the game continually changes.


Not sure anyone was saying the FBI did anything wrong... and yes, eventually the FBI agents won the day.

Bottom line is... You keep throwing bullets at something and eventually you'll kill it.

Note: I accidentally "liked" your comment and i'm unable to retract it.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

TAPnRACK said:


> Note: I accidentally "liked" your comment and i'm unable to retract it.


Relax, we've known about you for sometime now.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Thateus said:


> And evolve they did. But they did Nothing Wrong !
> That;s how the game was played back then. It will always be a new game.
> Now they are faced with 'pressure cookers'.


I think you are missing what I said. They did do a lot of things wrong but you were correct when you said that this was how they were trained at the time with the equipment they had. They didn't know any better.

We are not at opposite ends with this.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

He's too dumb and opinionated to realize that SB... plus, if he agrees with something, that means he can't insult or offend that person. Part of the troll game is to be at opposite ends of a discussion.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

PT111Pro said:


> In my opinion the FBI shooting like it happen back than is today impossible.
> 
> Like GCBHM already said the LEO had a terrible lack of training. It really doesn't matter if there where soldiers that were cooks, worked in the laundry or was a Ranger. If they were in the streets of Saigon, Hua, Ho City .... they were trained by doing street fights on almost a daily base. If you was there and survived you know all about street fights with handguns.
> 
> ...


Platt received several mortal wounds but continued to function. Had he collapsed from those wounds, he would have exsanguinated. Had he been hit with something akin to modern ammunition, more powerful rounds, or a larger caliber then chances are he would have not been able to continue the fight as long or as effectively as he did... though this is something we'll never know.

The thing is, Platt and Matix had nothing to lose. The FBI agents did. This made Platt and Matix very dangerous and very determined fighters and gave them an important edge.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> He's too dumb and opinionated to realize that SB... plus, if he agrees with something, that means he can't insult or offend that person. Part of the troll game is to be at opposite ends of a discussion.


I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I much prefer a mature and civil discourse to one that is filled with angst and emotional sputum.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Fair enough, I think we've tried that before though... didn't work out too well. Time will tell.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I agree SoutherBoy. 
I only want to draw the picture of 1985. It was a different world back than. The FBI couldn't be prepared for such an incident. It did just not happen because even criminals had a codex of honor.
Platt and Matix was like some criminals out of the nowadays liberalized society of entitlement and excuses for almost everything unthinkable. 
Platt and matix didn't fit in their times.
I know who brutalizes today s children but I have absolutely no idea who brutalized Platt and Matix. They just didn't fit in this time.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

PT111Pro said:


> I agree SoutherBoy.
> I only want to draw the picture of 1985. It was a different world back than. The FBI couldn't be prepared for such an incident. It did just not happen because even criminals had a codex of honor.
> Platt and Matix was like some criminals out of the nowadays liberalized society of entitlement and excuses for almost everything unthinkable.
> Platt and matix didn't fit in their times.
> I know who brutalizes today s children but I have absolutely no idea who brutalized Platt and Matix. They just didn't fit in this time.


It was in 1986 that this shootout took place.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thateus said:


> I simply returned to my critical thinking skills when I realized who I was talking here with.


No you didn't. You just have no clue what you're talking about. That, we can all see.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Ooohhh,
You was in the actual shootout or in Miami in 1986?

Germany had something similar to that in 1971. Bader Mainhoff (RAF) had a similar shootout. One of that criminal became in the early 1990 a state secretary for foreign affairs Mr. Fischer. 
They changed back than the rounds from 7.62mm to 7.65mm. (32 acp - 38 acp)


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

GCBHM said:


> You just have no clue what you're talking about. That, we can all see.


If I don't you sure as hell don't with the crap nonsense abut benevolence, arrogance and being cocky.
That was their job to engage. In 1986 you don't call tactical to make a pull over felony arrest because there is no such thing. Today a field agent no longer makes those types of arrest the tactical units do. And those tactical units are not necessarily dressed like a local swat member. You have spent far to much time here giving these criminals some sort of platform. As if they where smart or something. They had frig'n rifles behind cover !

And they where locked and loaded from the start. Until the fire fight begins no one knows jack on the FBI side. And until it ended they never even knew their backgrounds. These guys where not smart, they where simply vicious people, and they are the ones who where arrogant. And I mention that arrogance, an because of the other people they murdered. Notice how I didn't say kill.

And you come on here running your mouth as if you are sort of expert because you yourself where in the service. You ain't got a clue !
The civilian world is whole other ball game far removed from any suppose great training you ever received. And the proof of that can be found in how many of you young vets get out thinking your all about something end up pushing daisies cause you went up against the wrong person out here.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Thateus said:


> If I don't you sure as hell don't with the crap nonsense abut benevolence, arrogance and being cocky.
> That was their job to engage. In 1986 you don't call tactical to make a pull over felony arrest because there is no such thing. Today a field agent no longer makes those types of arrest the tactical units do. And those tactical units are not necessarily dressed like a local swat member. You have spent far to much time here giving these criminals some sort of platform. As if they where smart or something. They had frig'n rifles behind cover !
> 
> And they where locked and loaded from the start. Until the fire fight begins no one knows jack on the FBI side. And until it ended they never even knew their backgrounds. These guys where not smart, they where simply vicious people, and they are the ones who where arrogant. And I mention that arrogance, an because of the other people they murdered. Notice how I didn't say kill.
> ...


That's sound logic. It won't be long before you're kicked off here. It's just a matter of time.


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