# Precision Engineering and Catastrophic Failure......



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

I have been reading this forum for a while and i joined last month, i have read thread after thread about firearms failing , failing to feed, load, fire, extract or eject. i have read about sights not being accurate or failing to adjust. guide rods breaking , wrong springs , magazine poorly made. 

then i have seen these failures used as proof that this company or that is using poor metallurgy or 3rd world plastics or cheap slave labor and that the reason they are now selling guns that dont last. i have seen every major company listed here as declining in quality because of our experiences with a few of their guns. yep a few. their overall production is not represented here and if you take every gun forum everywhere you still dont have a base set to sample from. we are enthusiasts and we have expectations and i venture to say that our expectations are higher than the average gun owner.

these guns are machines, nothing more than the sum of their parts and like all machines they break or stop working or work less efficient as they wear. thats why there are and always have been gun mechanics. gunsmiths have been around since the first gun was broken. all machines fail, all machines have need of refinement and all need maintained. 

this doesn't mean the company sucks, it means its pretty normal..... designs are produced, consumers determine which are successful and which are not, based on the desires of the consumer not necessarily the overall merit of the design. cars are a great example of designs that dont work.... every model year SOMETHING goes away ..... a bolt, a knob, a fuse or a circuit , maybe even an entire model or brand. and something is introduced. 

the most precise machine ever made was also the most complex. over 2.5 MILLION parts ALL machined or produced to a standard so exact that it boggles the mind. this machine design was used only 140 times and yet it had 2 catastrophic failures resulting in 14 deaths. was the space shuttle a failure? did the design flaws signal the end of our competence? nope, it was a machine and they fail, in ways we cant even imagine until they do. 

your guns are machines, they will fail, doesnt mean they suck or the company sucks or you were screwed.... just means its a machine.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

It's worse than you think.

Many of the "failures" you read about here, and in other forums as well, are the result of user ignorance.
This ignorance includes failure to read the instructions, failure to learn proper technique, failure to practice any technique at all, and a need to blame the machine for the machine user's own failures.

There are exceptions to this "rule," of course. Taurus guns do suffer from poor quality control, as did the oldest Charter Arms revolvers. I'm certain that there are others.

But in most cases, the "machine failure" complaints voiced here are mostly really _machine-user_ failures.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i DO know, my small gun shop in central cal sat on 140 acres of farmland where i built a backstop in front of a berm. i fixed a ton of "broken" pistols by saying "can ya show me what its doing?" many were a result of bad technique. a lot were new guns fired right out of the box with no cleaning or lubrication. quite a few just needed to "wear in" before they settled down to be a good gun. i know many owners manuals do not call for a break-in period but ALL new machines need to have their moving parts contact surfaces wear together before they perform at their peak. and yes there were a few choice brands that will forever be (in my mind) a piece of sh!t.... but not many. they are just pieces of steel and plastic and they do what we want them to do, IF WE UNDERSTAND THEM


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

Kinda disagree bro

Think Mac vs PC, an Apple computer will never fail, a PC (which I use and own a PC) will fail and has a history of failing

Now Glock, Sig, Heckler and Koch... These are the Apple computers of the gun world

Your in an Armory, your going to be in a shootout, you can choose only one of the guns above described or you can use a revolver or a Taraus or a Kahr... Which do you choose? You better choose the ones above and not the ones after, IMO


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Kinda disagree bro
> 
> Think Mac vs PC, an Apple computer will never fail....


this is the link to the apple mac certified repair tech program
Apple - Certification Programs



jakeleinen1 said:


> Now Glock, Sig, Heckler and Koch... These are the Apple computers of the gun world


these are the links to glock and sig certified armorers courses

http://www.glocktraining.com/files/AA_Course.pdf
SIG SAUER Armorer Certification

hk doesnt certify anyone else, you must return your broken gun to them .... and they all have a process because despite your proclaimation of unbreakableness, they DO infact break.



jakeleinen1 said:


> Your in an Armory, your going to be in a shootout, you can choose only one of the guns above described or you can use a revolver or a Taraus or a Kahr... Which do you choose? You better choose the ones above and not the ones after, IMO


and lastly, if i am going to be in a shootout i would choose my own personal taurus pt92af, 15000 PLUS rounds and never a failure of any kind .

only a fool would go into battle with an untested weapon, you might as well grab a hammer....

so bro, infact, everything you listed fails, they break, the manufacturer says so and has a system to deal with it, your opinion should be based on more than pr

EDIT: in full disclosure, i have a sig p6 with over 7000 rounds without any type of failure..... the sig has an 8 round mag, my taurus is fed with ramline 18 round mags.....


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

Both Shuttle failures were due to poor decisions made by people and were 100% avoidable. They were people failures not machine failures. Machines follow the laws of physics and some machines aren't built to withstand the forces acting upon them. All machine failures can be traced to some mistake made by a person. Now lets get to the real reason for this thread. You are a Taurus fan because you got lucky and got your hands on one of the good ones. Good for you. That doesn't change the fact that an unacceptably large percentage of Taurus firearms are unreliable and cause the owners nothing but problems. You can continue to attempt to convince people that Taurus has a reputation they don't deserve and I will continue to say that their reputation accurately represents their product quality and customer service quality.



TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> this doesn't mean the company sucks


Say what you want, but poor manufacturing standards coupled with lousy customer service when you are talking about a company that tries to sell a person a product that the company knows might be one of the many defective ones that they know they produce....and this product is meant to be used in many cases for defending the customers life......that is the definition of a company that sucks.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

SMann said:


> Both Shuttle failures were due to poor decisions made by people and were 100% avoidable. They were people failures not machine failures. Machines follow the laws of physics and some machines aren't built to withstand the forces acting upon them. All machine failures can be traced to some mistake made by a person. Now lets get to the real reason for this thread. You are a Taurus fan because you got lucky and got your hands on one of the good ones. Good for you. That doesn't change the fact that an unacceptably large percentage of Taurus firearms are unreliable and cause the owners nothing but problems. You can continue to attempt to convince people that Taurus has a reputation they don't deserve and I will continue to say that their reputation accurately represents their product quality and customer service quality.
> 
> Say what you want, but poor manufacturing standards coupled with lousy customer service when you are talking about a company that tries to sell a person a product that the company knows might be one of the many defective ones that they know they produce....and this product is meant to be used in many cases for defending the customers life......that is the definition of a company that sucks.


actually i got luckier , i have 3 taurus..... all are good. i also have smiths, colts, sig, ruger and rossi.... all shoot as well as the others. as for being a fan, i have used taurus lifetime warranty on a pt100 that has a finish issue, they replaced it and did so quickly with no hassles. so i can talk about my experiences positively but i am not preaching here or anywhere the merits of one brand over another.

you speak of an unacceptably large percentage of the guns are unreliable, i would love to see your data, the model in question, the number sold, the number returned etc etc etc because until there is some data, its antecdotal evidence not fact. if an individual here has a bad taurus, its a fact that his taurus is bad, if 40 people here have bad taurus, its a fact that 40 are bad. but what is an unacceptable large number would have to be based on data of guns produced, sold, returned..... its math, it works everytime.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I feel compelled to add that PC failures have mostly been "people failures" as well.
The problem seems to be the poor, rush-to-market quality of Microsoft's programming, not something endemic to the PC's architecture.
But that's merely an opinion based upon small-sample observation, since I am anything but a computer expert.

I do know of one specific catastrophic failure of a Taurus semi-auto pistol, in the hands of an experienced shooter who is a very reliable reporter.
At about the 300th round (IIRC), the gun's frame broke in a very decisive manner, effectively destroying the pistol.
That speaks of poor engineering and below-par quality control.
However, it is only one sample.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

and studies abound concerning the M9 and slide failures..... poor engineering and below par quality control? 160,000 pistols recalled or retrofitted by beretta in the early years of the program .....


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## IshootThings (Jun 5, 2011)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Kinda disagree bro
> 
> Think Mac vs PC, an Apple computer will never fail, a PC (which I use and own a PC) will fail and has a history of failing
> 
> ...


You obviously have no idea. Macs are just as bad as PC's. 99% of problems are user errors and this "history of failing" is due to the fact that PC sales are way higher than Mac sales therefore there are way more PC problems due to the shear number of PCs out there. It's also due to the fact that most people who by a Mac usually have a little bit more computer knowledge than the average person and therefore make fewer mistakes. If Macs didn't have problems like PCs do then there wouldn't be just as many maintenance, recovery and anti-virus programs.


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i have 3 taurus..... all are good.
> 
> i would love to see your data, the model in question, the number sold, the number returned etc etc etc
> 
> ...


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

SMann said:


> TedDeBearFrmHell said:
> 
> 
> > i have 3 taurus..... all are good.
> ...


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

‪kyroguy's Channel‬‏ - YouTube

One example of many.


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