# safe Sub-compacts



## C-Kicks (Jan 29, 2009)

As a new CCW Holder I have an M&Pc as my carry. I dont chamber a round when I carry because I am worried I will pull the trigger too soon. I would rather be shot than accidental shoot an innocent person. 

Now I am in the market for a Sub-Compact. Since my experience with handguns is pretty limited. What are some safe gun options? I know there are different types of safeties available but I want to be confident that my gun will not go off due to user error. I am not a clumsy person but I am concerned how I will react in the situation that I might need to use it.


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## rg8866 (Apr 17, 2009)

Hey. I'm new to ccw too and I'm looking to find a sub-compact pistol with a good safety. People have been recommending something double-action like the PPK/S or a similar model. I have owned a couple of da's and have also owned several double action signal pistols, and I must say, the double action is a good bet, you really have to pull that trigger hard. On top of that, most have a thumb safety that you have to disengage before firing. If you pull the hammer back you get a nice quick single action pull too, so it's pretty user-friendly with practice. That's my $.02.


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## Recycooler (Apr 7, 2009)

Seriously ,your best safety is between your ears.Carrying an unchambered round.Is putting you or who ever you may need to save at great risk!Bad guys dont wait for you to rack your slide.Carry it ready or dont please.be thoroughly confident in your gun handling capabilities.and keep your finger off the trigger unless you mean to kill someone.Sorry if Im ranting but its that serious.get to the range and get some time in .I may be counting on you someday:smt1099


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## C-Kicks (Jan 29, 2009)

I am confident in myself. I am very comfortable with my M&P and I was carrying a chambered round but I dont see a very good reason too. I see your point and it is true that I might need my gun just as fast as I can pull it out.


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## truman565 (Jun 27, 2007)

C-Kicks:

I think most people are going to argue strongly against carrying without a round in the chamber. I am one of them. Like Recycooler said a bad guy is not going to wait for you to chamber a round. A more likely scenario would be you drawing your gun, and then having it taken away and used against you while you were attempting to rack the slide. Sorry if that sounds harsh but logic is not on your side. If you are not confident with your personal defense skills then I suggest you enroll in a class aimed at personal defense training. There are a ton of these classes out there. Some offer one on one training while others offer training in a group environment. Whatever the case go and search Google and I know you will find a class near your place of residence.

Most double action guns or DA/SA guns offer a pretty substantial trigger pull of anywhere from 5lbs to 10 lbs. All manufactures list a particular gun's trigger pull.

Don't forget that a safety is simple a mechanical device that CAN fail. Never rely on it completely. No safety is a replacement for proper gun safety techniques.


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## SaltyDog (Jan 1, 2009)

+1 Truman565 - Recycooler

C-Kicks You shouldn't have your finger on the trigger if you're not planning to shoot it.

I'm not a fan of physically operated safeties myself - it takes too much time to find them in critical situations. I just want to be able to pull, aim, and shoot.

I will use the Kahr PM9 (waiting for it to come in) Sig P229 DAK and the Glock23. I carry with one in the chamber and I am not worried about them going off - even if dropped. The Sig and Kahr are both DA pistols and the Glock has 3 safety features which are disabled as the trigger is pulled. 

You are right to be worried about the trigger. That is why you must have a suitable holster to carry your pistol in. Not saying that you do this but one cannot just stick it in there waistband or pocket and expect it not to prematurely discharge.

.02 cents worth


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## C-Kicks (Jan 29, 2009)

I see your points. The place I took my CCW class at teaches a self defense class. It is usually sold out pretty fast maybe I will try to register for it. I am comfortable carrying a chambered gun. 

And I agree with the safety is a mechanical device that can fail. So I know thet is never a good idea to put my finger on the trigger unless I plan to shoot. I was just interested in finding a gun that was reliable that had a saftey mechagnism on it. Somthing I could flip of with my thumb. 


Gun saftey is pretty important to me as I am sure it is to most if not all on this forum. I have a Gun-works holster which I find to be very comfortable.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

If you practice getting your weapon out without putting your finger(Always make sure your weapon is empty for this type training). in the guard. Practice this a lot. muscle memory comes in to play in a SD situation. Your body will react even though your head is not quite there yet. It's something that anyone that carries a weapon.

Training like that will help a great deal. If you get some snap caps you can dry fire aiming at some place on a wall. Most the people I shoot with practice drawing at least a couple times a week. In the beginning I practiced 3-5 times a week and it has helped me with my shooting more than anything. You don't have to have Sunday Matinee speed but you will get to a point where you can un-holster your weapon and not put your finger in there until you have the weapon up and acquiring a sight picture. 

Not cambering a round when you carry can backfire on you giving the would be bad guy an edge that you so not want to. That M&P's trigger is not so light that it would pose a problem. You just need to get some practice time in to build your confidence so that you can carry in a way that can be a liability.

Even John Wayne had to practice:smt023


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

By all means get another weapon in you don't trust the one you have enough. I carry 1911's mostly but not because of the safeties (s). I just like the design. 

You have to have a weapon that you are 100% comfortable with. The one you have is an excellent carry weapon. But if you want something else look at maybe FNP/Browning Pro. They are really god weapons and have a safety. The Compact 1911 type pistols are great but they run pretty high for the 3" models like a Para Companion or Springfield EMP.

There's all kinds of people here that can give you great advice but it will be your decision. If you can get your hands on some to see how they feel you might have a better chance to make a good choice.


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## dovehunter (Dec 18, 2007)

If you are looking for a DA/SA pistol, I might be wrong, but I do not know of a brand that has a mechanical safety. They have a de-cocker. I've got a couple of colt double eagle and the only mechanical safety device on it is the de-cocker which only works when the hammer is pulled back. I've also have a sig and FN, they are DA/SA and they all have de-cockers. De-cockers are not really a safety device, it's only purpose is to bring the hammer down mechanically, instead of using your thumb.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

+1 to DJ's comments.

Not chambering a round is like carrying a brick. You might as well throw it at them. What happens if it's a contact distance attack? Naturally, your off hand is going to be on the attacker. At that point, all you have is a $600 club.

With training, your body will do what it is supposed to do, IF you train a lot. There's a couple of things to keep in mind. Bear with me.

1. Square range practice.
2. Defensive practice.

What's the difference? Well, on a square range( pistol range), you have all the time in the world to manipulate your weapon. You practice what are called "fine motor skills". Those are the things like...
1. Being safe all the time.
2. Range etiquette.
3. Loading a magazine with ammo.
4. Holstering your weapon with a conscious effort to keep your finger out of the trigger guard. 
5. Obeying range commands.
6. Focusing on your sights to hit the bulls eye.
7. A slow deliberate trigger pull.
8. Breathing before breaking the shot.

All of those things require you to be focused on what you are doing. Does that mean that carrying a pistol for defense should not involve those things? No, it doesn't, but when it comes down to an attack on you and yours, your adrenaline is going to be pumping and you are going to lose your fine motor skills. Like someone threw them out the window, you will have to rely on gross motor skills. What does that mean? Well, simply, it means what your body remembers what it should do in this situation. That doesn't mean that you need to train for every imaginable situation, just the parts involving your gun and shooting it, and reloading it. (There's a bit more, but for a baseline this will work)

Train at home. Empty your weapon, then check it again and again and again (a fine motor skill). Then put the ammo for that gun and any loaded magazines in another room. Then check your gun again!!!!

Practice drawing your weapon from its holster, repeatedly! (as in hundreds of times) until you feel comfortable being able to find the grip solidly (a shooting grip) and drawing it clear of the holster and presenting it towards a perceived threat. Practice this until you can do it with your eyes closed, without ever putting your finger in the trigger guard. (Along side it, as you would on a square range)

Then, move on to drawing the weapon and disengaging the safety(if required) *(all steps in training require an empty gun of course)* while you present the weapon. Do that until you are comfortable. Keep in mind that at this point, drawing your weapon involves the fact that there's a need to do so. That does not mean that there is a need to fire, that comes later.

Again, with weapon carefully checked to be unloaded, move onto the next step.

Draw the weapon from the holster, disengage the safety, and point it at the perceived threat, and move your finger to the trigger. Practice this until you are comfortable you can do it without mistake. (This does not involve pulling the trigger) There is a conscious decision that needs to be made about EVER pulling the trigger, it should not be a reflex, ever!!!

If you practice these things long enough, your body will remember them when needed. I'll post some video of some reactive shooting, but keep in mind, it has taken YEARS to get to this point, not weeks or months. This whole thing of carrying a gun for defense is a life long ordeal. You will NOT get it after a few weeks, or even a few months. It is an ongoing process. Do not get discouraged, just keep practicing, safely!! See below for some video of what I started doing after YEARS of practice.



(some have seen this one before)

The point is, it's taken me YEARS to get to this point. Don't expect to be anywhere near this fast (and I'm not really that fast compared to others)

The next video is me in a class specifically designed for advanced users(including funny blooper). Why do I want to show it? Because I want new shooters to know that there is an immense amount of fun that can be had once you practice the basics over and OVER AND OVER!!!! Don't try to do this, you'll see it in Hollywood movies and want to try it, but trust me when I tell you that it takes many years to get proficient enough to not shoot yourself in the leg or worse. This drill was caught on film by my lovely wife (who seems to have a problem running the camera except when it's something she want's to film) of me doing what is called a 360 drill. I'm about 2 magazines into the drill at this point. It teaches you to handle your weapon against a threat in whatever condition it may be in. The first round I fire puts it in "slide lock", which requires a "tactical reload". That basically means "right the frak now! reload. Normally your weapon would not be in this state, as it'd be full and ready to go, as in a round chambered, but I was mid way thru the drill. You can see how long it takes for me to deploy the pistol. Add racking the slide to that under duress and you'd probably be dead.


Anyways, practice is the word of the day. Practice at home with an empty gun a lot. Once you get it down pat, you won't be worried about putting your finger in the trigger prematurely.

Hope this helps. (Anyone feel free to add or critique as I'm tired and need to go to bed.)

Zhur

As far as the blooper is concerned, it happens. My t-shirt came untucked during the session, I tried to reholster into my Galco IWB holster and basically branded myself with the slide of the gun. Everyone had a good laugh at my expense, so why shouldn't you. Either way, I maintained muzzle discipline and kept the range safe, even though my adrenaline was pumping like an oil well.


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## truman565 (Jun 27, 2007)

One gun off the top of my head that is DA/SA with a thumb safety is the H&K USP. The USP also comes in a compact size that would be nice for carrying. The USP is also a polymer gun and has a decent mag capacity. I have never shot one but I rarely hear complaints except for the price. Depending on where you shop you are going to pay at least $750 and up. I am sure there are other weapons on the market with the features you want but I can;t think of any off the top of my head right now. You might want to check out www.impactguns.com . There are very few guns that they don't carry and the prices are pretty good. If nothing else it is a good resource to see what it on the market. I agree with others though that if for some reason you don't have confidence in your carry weapon then perhaps you should get another one. If more training and more time doesn't increase your confidence in the weapon then start shopping around and see if something else strikes your fancy.


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## rg8866 (Apr 17, 2009)

I carry my D/A with a round chambered, safety on. Lots of practice drawing and firing the quick D/A shot has gotten me well used to it. I also find though that removing the safety and cocking the hammer on mine are quite quick to do if I need the S/A for any reason, and I've practiced this heavily also. I really want to find a D/A sub-compact for ccw. I get tired of carrying a big one around. Any suggestions?


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## BigdogBro1 (Jan 4, 2009)

I carry a Sig P229R. It's a DA/SA and has no safeties with a decocker. My safety is between my ears. When you begin to carry with a chambered round you must be mentally focused and prepared for that transition. If you get a strange or unsafe feeling after you chamber a round in your home before you holster, then you may not be ready for that commitment. 

Check out the Beretta PX4 sub-compact. It's a DA/SA and has a decocker like Sig. It's my next purchase.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Like everyone has said, I never rely on a manual safety, and I carry with a round chambered all the time. My previous XDs didn't have manual safites and my current Sig doesn't either, and I have never felt it was an issue. In fact, I much prefer to not have a manual safety that I have to worry about. My number one safety is my brain and my number two is my index finger. Muscle memory takes over whenever I hold a gun and my finger naturally goes along the frame. Hell, whenever I pick up anything with a trigger now (gun, pressure washer, chain saw, etc.) my finger goes straight out.


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

Hrm.

Well I certainly don't want to rock the boat, nor do I want anyone to think I am suggesting anyone change their ways, but I am VERY adamant about carrying and storing my handguns without a round in the chamber. It's very simple really. I've been walking and talking for nearly 34 years, but I also trip over my words and my steps on a regular basis. Now I am not clumsy, mentally challenged, insane, or careless. I am simply human. I also prefer open-top OWB holsters and while my EDC is snug and the trigger is completely covered, it is NOT securely locked in place. 

I have trained myself to rack on the draw, and while this adds time to "ready" position, the amount of time added by racking the slide, once in the habit of it, is under a second, even in the event I am using my belt to snag the slide via sights in an effort to simulate an incapacitated hand. Does the added time concern me? Certainly. Do I think an added 0.5-0.75 seconds is going to make me or break me? No. Frankly, I don't see much difference between loaded/unloaded chambers versus cocked-and-locked carry, i.e. with or without a manual safety. You're either comfortable withit or you're not, but either way you drill yourself around your preference accordingly. I don't see people telling CCWers who carry 1911s "carry without a manual safety or don't please" so I don't think it's fair to say the same about carrying with an empty chamber. It all comes down to comfort. Truth be told, if you are disciplined about the rules firearm handling, carrying with a loaded chamber isn't a problem. But if you are not comfortable after trying it, then you need to reevaluate your situation and find circumstances which work for you. C-Kicks, you are not the only one who carries with an unloaded chamber and I would be very hesitant to tell you to do otherwise, especially if this is something which has become routine. If you cannot bring yourself to comfortably carry loaded then make necessary adjustments to carry as you desire.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

There can be times when you don't have that extra time to rack a slide. That's why I say to train to use a weapon with a chambered round. I can tell you that SD situations are nothing like on TV where you get to hear everyone racking slides bringing hammers to a SA ready position. The reason many of us choose to carry a weapon is to be ready (heaven forbid) if a time comes that we need that weapon for our protection. And your weapon is not ready if it's empty. 

No I wont go as far as to say everyone needs to do this. But when a situation presents itself that you or yours is in danger every second will count and you will be on the other side of it saying to yourself it all happened. way too fast. 

I don't know what most of y'all are carrying but I don't own a weapon that will go off if I drop it or I fall down on it. If I did have one that could go off in that situation I would surely not carry it.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Trance,
I can understand the apprehensiveness. But that is what training is for, to get rid of the doubt in ones self. The reason I'm advocating carrying with one in the tube is because I see far more benefits from reducing the amount of things a person would need to do in the event of a self defense situation. Perhaps it's a matter of compromise. Carry how you feel comfortable but train to get past that, perhaps? 

I realize that any man made object can fail, but there also comes a point where you have to trust your equipment a little bit. Not to mention, I'd bet that most accidents with firearms are operator error. So, practicing to the point where the operator is less of a risk is the way to go. In the event I needed to draw and fire my weapon, I'd hate for something like a lack of training to be the death of me, especially since most of it is free, just add repetitions.

You are correct though, people should only carry what they are comfortable with.

Zhur


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## mels95yj (Nov 25, 2008)

I have to agree with all the above posts. I have a H&K USP compact that I carry with the safety on, but don't completely rely on it. The only other one I know of, that has a manual safety, is the Beretta PX4 subcompact. The first night I carried, I carried without one in the chamber. I mentioned this to my wife, and her reply was, "Then, why even carry one?" I've carried with one in the chamber ever since.


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

zhurdan said:


> Trance,
> I can understand the apprehensiveness. But that is what training is for, to get rid of the doubt in ones self. The reason I'm advocating carrying with one in the tube is because I see far more benefits from reducing the amount of things a person would need to do in the event of a self defense situation. Perhaps it's a matter of compromise. Carry how you feel comfortable but train to get past that, perhaps?


I agree, there are more benefits, provided it is a SD scenario, with one in the tube rather than without. I dare say if a true SD situation comes about, response is going to dictate whether or not a shot even needs to be taken and thus becomes more important than say, shot placement. Risk, response, threat....options have to be weighed in what is probably not going to be a whole lot of time. Uh oh, does this mean shot placement ISN'T #1? Granted, shot placement is usually debated in threads addressing caliber effectiveness. Nevertheless, it's worth noting. Also, I did carry with a loaded chamber for a few weeks but I couldn't not get over the fact so I stopped. Perhaps I should have given it more time. Then again, I have no regrets of incorporating racking as part of my draw routine.



zhurdan said:


> I realize that any man made object can fail, but there also comes a point where you have to trust your equipment a little bit. Not to mention, I'd bet that most accidents with firearms are operator error. So, practicing to the point where the operator is less of a risk is the way to go. In the event I needed to draw and fire my weapon, I'd hate for something like a lack of training to be the death of me, especially since most of it is free, just add repetitions.


I think I might have been misunderstood. I am not worried about mechanical failure or a round going off because a handgun is dropped. If anything, it's to avoid unintentional operator error; i.e. ME  I have never pointed a firearm at someone, nor have I ever forgotten to check/clear a firearm when handling it. Even with a perfect record, I am reminded daily "to err is human" and it is this very reason I choose not to carry with the pipe stocked. BTW I would also take that bet suggesting most accidents occur due to operator error; I'm in total agreement with you here.

This is the one incident which really helped me make up my mind on the subject:

I used to train at the range with 10 rounds in the mag. I did it because it was an easy for me to keep track of how many shots I was using for the day. Well, one time I was at the range with a friend and he was loading all mags to capacity, i.e. greater than 10. When I shot the first mag he reloaded, I brought the weapon to rest after 10 rounds (still pointed downrange, just more towards the ground) for a moment when I realized the handgun still felt a little heavy! I should mention I do NOT count my rounds as I fire. I believe I was so used to firing 10 round intervals my body and mind had somehow become accustomed to this repetition. Once I noticed the slide was forward I knew what was going on. Still, it took me a few seconds to figure out what was going on and I can't help but wonder how much this moment of pause would cost in a SD scenario. Needless to say I load magazines to capacity unless I am practicing speed drills (and even then it really depends on what I'm working on). If I can cause myself hesitation at the range, in a controlled environment, in SPITE (and with, perhaps, a hint of irony) of the fact that I was applying drills which are supposed to prevent this kind of thing, how can I confidently say what will happen or how I will react in a real-life self-defense scenario where I am in survival mode? I wish I could say I would do well...make the right decisions, but the truth is it hasn't happened yet. Hopefully it never will. Regardless, the point is this topic is all supposition, at least that's how I see it.



zhurdan said:


> You are correct though, people should only carry what they are comfortable with.
> Zhur


No doubt, sir. No doubt. :smt023

[Edit]: LOL, I just watched your videos. I'm gathering from your second video that pressing the slide of a recently-fired handgun into your hip isn't the most pleasant thing in the world....


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## C-Kicks (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice. Has anyone on this forum shot themselves in the leg due to misshandling the gun while holstering it with one in the chamber?


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

C-Kicks said:


> Thanks for all the advice. *Will* anyone on this forum *admit to shooting* themselves in the leg due to misshandling the gun while holstering it with one in the chamber?


I edited it for you. :smt033


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I don't know of anyone personally that has shot themselves in the leg with their own weapon. I'm sure it happens though. Plexico Burris is an example. Even did it with the Safe Action Glock no less. It goes to show though. Don't get your booger hook inside the trigger guard unless you want the weapon go bang.


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## SaltyDog (Jan 1, 2009)

Hey Trance that is a good training exercise. 

My son and I do that too each other on occasion loading each others mags and not telling how many rounds are in the mag. Helps to stop those JERKIES and keeps you concentrating on your form.

It does keep ya on your toes. :numbchuck:


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Like I usually tell people, if you are worried you might pull the trigger while drawing, get a revolver. True, they don't hold 60 rounds, but the trigger is heavier and you need to pull a little harder.


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## TrapperJohn (Apr 19, 2009)

Thanks, I learned a lot from this thread...


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## Redwolf (Nov 29, 2008)

Lets start with “new CCW holder”, congrats, but being new you need to get comfortable with carrying a weapon period. It comes with training and practice.

“I have an M&Pc” you have 1 of the safest weapons out there; it will not fire unless YOU pull the trigger. I own both but prefer the full size. 

“I don’t chamber a round when I carry because I am worried I will pull the trigger too soon” tells me you keep your finger on the trigger whether your ready to shoot or not, very bad habit.

“I would rather be shot than accidental shoot an innocent person” +1 enough said.

“What are some safe gun options?” Just about any late model pistol with a finger safety (keeping your finger off the trigger till your ready to kill your target). Once you remove the safety what’s to stop you from pulling the trigger, your finger. If you practice racking the slide upon drawing then not much difference then carrying with a loaded chamber, except for time, if you draw then you’ve already made a conscious decision to shoot. 

“I want to be confident that my gun will not go off due to user error” The only way to get this guarantee is to lock up your weapon and never touch it. If this is not an option, get more training. 

I ask you this, how often to do you shoot and how many times have you accidentally shot your target. I’ve seen very few accidental shootings in my life and most of them were with a Ma Deuce, 

Good luck with your search.


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## Steve2112 (Nov 19, 2008)

FWIW, the Taurus Millennium Pro has a manual safety. I know many people have a down opinion on Taurus, but it does fit the requirement of a subcompact with a manual safety.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

literaltrance said:


> [Edit]: LOL, I just watched your videos. I'm gathering from your second video that pressing the slide of a recently-fired handgun into your hip isn't the most pleasant thing in the world....


Yeah, hot slide + bare skin = YEOOUCH!!!!! Usually my T-shirt will stay put, but they ran me thru about 5 magazines that go around without stopping, so I didn't have time to adjust my T-shirt. I sure as hell hope I'm never in THAT bad a situation where it requires that many mags. Fun class though

Zhur


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## rg8866 (Apr 17, 2009)

I love the double action pull on mine. I have made a habit of switching off the safety during the draw. Now that I've practiced it a lot, it works well for me


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

If you don't train... don't carry.

Once you have/do train(ed), carry loaded.

There are THOUSANDS of brand new CCW holders on the street today, and plenty on this forum. Carrying concealed is a huge responsibility. One of life and death.

Before you start driving on a street, you learn to drive in a parking lot.
Before you start scuba diving in caves, you learn in a pool.
Before you start carrying a gun for personal/family protection... GET TRAINING.

Start at home with an UNLOADED GUN.
Progress to a "square range" with a loaded gun, working SLOWLY.
Progress to a "square range" with a loaded gun, workng faster/safely.
Then, move to a discipline like USPSA or IDPA, or get formal training, and train in a realist self-defense manner... OR DON'T CARRY.

Once you are confident with your ability to handle a loaded gun, you are ready to carry one.
If you are not confident in your ability to carry loaded, don't carry loaded... but I'd suggest you learn really quick...

If you're worried about shooting yourself... you shouldn't carry.
If you're worried about driving in traffic, why are you on the freeway???

JW


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## C-Kicks (Jan 29, 2009)

I have been practicing and I am becoming more confindent. One thing I do is, when I get home and I want to take my gun off I leave the gun in the holster and pull the holster off and set it on my nightstand. (single guy & no kids) 

I dont carry very often since, I do not go many places that yeilds the option to carry. I wish ohio would change the laws about going into places that serve alchohal. Such as resturants that serve and not bars/nightclubs.


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