# Bullet performance in the real world



## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

In the May/June issue of American Handgunner there is a very interesting point raised in the AYOOB FILES column. It concerns a shootout between a California police officer and an Asian gang member, both carrying .45s. As usual the altercation took place at very close range after a foot chase.

The officer received a couple of hits from the Sig P220 in non critical areas and went down, then returning aimed fire from his Glock 21 and taking the gang banger out after multiple hits. A total of 23 rounds were exchanged. It's much more involved, but that's the short version.

The officer was firing CorBon 185 grain +P jacketed hollow points. After this fight and his recovery he switched to Speer 230 grain Gold Dots, and I will quote Ayoob here, finally getting to the point of this post:

"He was not pleased with his bullets' performance. He feels his 185 grain bullets, at 1,150 fps, opened too soon and did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal. One shot did massive damage tracking up the suspects arm, but did not exit the arm to re-enter the chest, which he feels might have stopped the action sooner. Immediately after the gunfight he switched to Gold Dot 230 grain 45 ACP for the Glock 21 he continued to carry in uniform."

Interesting point he made. Does anyone know of similar situations or have thoughts on the heavier bullet vs "too quick" expansion of the lighter, faster bullet? It makes sense and reminds me of the famous FBI Miami shootout where the 147 grain subsonic 9 mms hit but stopped before reaching the heart. That allowed the bad guys to continue the fight even with non-survivable wounds.

I think I'm glad I'm retired.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

DepOne said:


> In the May/June issue of American Handgunner there is a very interesting point raised in the AYOOB FILES column. It concerns a shootout between a California police officer and an Asian gang member, both carrying .45s. As usual the altercation took place at very close range after a foot chase.
> 
> The officer received a couple of hits from the Sig P220 in non critical areas and went down, then returning aimed fire from his Glock 21 and taking the gang banger out after multiple hits. A total of 23 rounds were exchanged. It's much more involved, but that's the short version.
> 
> ...


as the problems with the cor-bon were based on the officers FEELINGS and EXPECTATIONS rather than science there is no rational reason to change..... if the cop wanted to have his bullet expand in the chest cavity, he shouldnt have shot the suspect in the arm..... its about shot placement


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

DepOne said:


> the famous FBI Miami shootout where the 147 grain subsonic 9 mms hit but stopped before reaching the heart. That allowed the bad guys to continue the fight even with non-survivable wounds.


That was the 115gr Silver Tip :smt1099

If you look hard enough you will find that any ammunition will fail if not put in the right place.

Don't know if the officer was using 185s, or 230s, like Da' Bear from hell said, it doesn't matter if they don't hit the vitals.

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific


> *Resistance to Gunfire *
> Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45-*six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot-without any significant effect on his fighting ability. *This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using *.45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition*, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market.
> 
> ....
> ...


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> That was the 115gr Silver Tip :smt1099
> 
> If you look hard enough you will find that any ammunition will fail if not put in the right place.
> 
> ...


It was the 185 gr +p 45 ACP, and of course you are right about shot placement but assuming the bullet didn't hit bone it should go through an arm and into the chest.

Re the Silvertips, I can't argue but only say what I was told by two pretty good sources; I was at Quantico a week after the Miami shooting and that's what the cadre was saying and I recently had the chance to speak with the current HRT guys who said the Hydra Shock 147 gr sub sonic was used. I thought that was designed specifically for a suppressed sub gun?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

DepOne said:


> It was the 185 gr +p 45 ACP, and of course you are right about shot placement but assuming the bullet didn't hit bone it should go through an arm and into the chest.
> 
> Re the Silvertips, I can't argue but only say what I was told by two pretty good sources; I was at Quantico a week after the Miami shooting and that's what the cadre was saying and I recently had the chance to speak with the current HRT guys who said the Hydra Shock 147 gr sub sonic was used. I thought that was designed specifically for a suppressed sub gun?


I'm pretty sure it was the 115. Regardless, most modern projectiles will do the job if put in the right place and fail to do the job if put in the wrong place.

I think people fret too much over this bullet vs. that bullet.


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> I'm pretty sure it was the 115. Regardless, most modern projectiles will do the job if put in the right place and fail to do the job if put in the wrong place.
> 
> I think people fret too much over this bullet vs. that bullet.


I think you're absolutely right. There's no little piece of metal that will break the laws of physics. Placement, placement, placement!


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

They used 115 grain silvertips, I read the official FBI report/investigation. The 147grn's only came into being as a result and after the Miami fiasco. I've heard of issues of 147's overpenetrating, but not underpenetrating.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

VAMarine said:


> I'm pretty sure it was the 115. Regardless, most modern projectiles will do the job if put in the right place and fail to do the job if put in the wrong place.
> 
> I think people fret too much over this bullet vs. that bullet.


You are correct sir, but it sure makes for a good poll, or to show someone they know how to google to get info!

There is a lot of to do about this bullet vs that bullet. I agree with hellbear a well placed .25 will do the job a poorly place .45 acp won't.

RCG


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## sgms (Jun 2, 2010)

Yes bullet placement is every thing. However to be able to place that bullet where it needs to be during an 'Oh my god he's trying to kill me!!' moment requires far more practice, training, dedication, and out lay of money than most people are willing or often able to commit to. And we all know that by using modern S.D. ammunition that 'right place' is larger than it would be with say f.m.j. or lead wadcutter. So I think all this carrying on about this or that bullet is just a search for the magic bullet that will pull some ones back end out of a place he shouldn't have allowed himself to be in the first place.(or even admit that maybe the should have practiced more) Theses bullets are just tools and will work well but just like driving a nail with a screw driver you can do it but you have to hit it a lot more times.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

The shot placement argument is still the most important. A well placed shot with a .22LR can kill your opponent, but I still feel that in 9mm the 124 grain is still the best. I also make sure I keep my .45 loaded up with the original .45 ACP load - the 230 grain version. Just my personal preference.


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## jdw68 (Nov 5, 2011)

I completely agree with the idea of shot placement being most important. However, I also think that some people expect to much from their handguns. For example, a direct hit to the brain will likely cause an immediate stop, but a solid center of mass shot will not always cause an immediate stop. I have never shot a person before, but have shot several deer. I have shot deer with a 30 06 rifle and 180 grain bullet and 308 and 150 grain bullet. I have shot deer with perfect heart shots that were very effective in killing the deer with one shot, but the deer still ran 50 yards before falling. If that deer had been an armed man he could have returned fire before he died. If you cannot expect an immediate stop from a 30 06 or 308 with a well placed heart shot, then why would you expect that from a 45? With deer you can just wait for them to fall because they don't run very far. However, with an armed attacker you might want to keep shooting until the threat stops. Doesn't matter the caliber or the bullet you may still need to shoot more than once.


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

I think the difference here is that a deer is instinctively confused and momentarily alert but really has no concept of what has happened. A human knows what's going on and some are spurred on to amazing acts of defiance and defense while others can panic from just the thought of being injured and simply give up. Human animals are much less predictible. Unless the shot it a stopper there is no real analogy between critters and man.


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## jdw68 (Nov 5, 2011)

There is at least an anology that the animal doesn't fall down and die the moment it is hit, unless the spinal cord or brain is struck by the bullet. The animal has time to run at least 50 yards before it dies. It's true that a person may be spurred on to fight or my fall for psychological reasons. However, a person shouldn't be expected to fall down and die immediately unless they are hit in the spinal cord or brain. If someone hits someone, even with a good center of mass hit, they shouldn't expect an immediate knock down. They should be ready to shoot again, if necessary. My point is that its not bullet failure if the person you shoot doesn't drop immediately. If rifles don't produce that kind of success why would we expect our handguns to produce that kind of success?


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

denner said:


> I've heard of issues of 147's overpenetrating, but not underpenetrating.


Not just 147 gr bullets, but *sub-sonic *147 grainers. Regardless of supposed less expansion due to lower velocity, I still don't think a sub-sonic round will penetrate as far as a sonic round. Research would be interesting but I do recall that the 147 gr. subsonic was specifically developed for a suppressed sub gun, not as a pistol round.


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## haree (Dec 4, 2011)

Awesome dude very nice information sharing by you dude, this is the way to expose to your ideas. i really like to this very much.
Bullets are for your security and psychologically you feel secure to yourself.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

I always carried 230 gr. FMJ ball ammo when I carried my Gold Cup. 

That round has a proven track record for its man-stopping ablity. Of course it was in comparison to 9mm and .38 FMJ which are woefully inadequate in that loading in my opinion.

I liked the FMJ ball because it was 100% reliable in feeding and the big heavy bullet would get the job done.

Newer designs of JHP feed much better nowadays so that is less of an issue.

A plus pressure .45 ball sounds like it would have a lot (maybe too much) penetration. Certainly it would be a lot for civilian use.


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

Packard said:


> I liked the FMJ ball because it was 100% reliable in feeding and the big heavy bullet would get the job done.


I have always meant to call or email Wilson about a statement they make in the very complete literature they include with every gun. When I bought my CQB the manual said that the most difficult rounds to get to feed reliably was the standard military full metal jacket round nose. Sounded strange to me, but I'm not about to argue with Bill Wilson.

Any thoughts on this?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

DepOne said:


> Not just 147 gr bullets, but *sub-sonic *147 grainers. Regardless of supposed less expansion due to lower velocity, I still don't think a sub-sonic round will penetrate as far as a sonic round. Research would be interesting but I do recall that the 147 gr. subsonic was specifically developed for a suppressed sub gun, not as a pistol round.


1126 FPS, I don't know of any 147 gr 9mm bullet to date or in the past commercially manufactured that are not subsonic? There were never issues of the older 147 grn bullets underpenetrating, the issues were failing to cycle properly, not expanding, and over penetrating. Todays top 147 grn hollowpoints tend to cycle, expand, and penetrate at least 13 inches in ballistic gel. I hope you're not confusing the 115 grain silvertip that was used by the FBI in the Miami Fiasco which was claimed to underpenetrate as opposed the the early 147 grn 9mm bullets that I've already mentioned. A non expanding older 147 grn hollowpoint going 860 fps will get you anywhere from 18 to 24 inches in ballistic gel if not more. As far as your claim I don't know whether you're refferring to HP or FMJ as far as penetration sonic vs subsonic. If you shoot a ranger t-series 124+p+ and a t-series 147 grn into ballistic gel and they both expand the heavier slower bullet will give you more penetration at the cost of expansion in the tests I've seen. All in All heavier slower bullets tend to penetrate further than faster lighter ones at least in the expanding HP realm.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

DepOne said:


> I have always meant to call or email Wilson about a statement they make in the very complete literature they include with every gun. When I bought my CQB the manual said that the most difficult rounds to get to feed reliably was the standard military full metal jacket round nose. Sounded strange to me, but I'm not about to argue with Bill Wilson.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


I got my Gold Cup in 1980. Hollow points were relatively new at that time and the first ones I believe were designed for revolvers. In any case the openings tended to be wider with a more open "mouth" and sometimes those would hang up on the feed ramp. Ball would not do that.

Newer hollowpoints are much improved on that issue. For most guns you can find a brand that will feed reliabley nowadays. But that was not always the case.

But to address your question, I cannot imagine how that statement can make much sense. The 1911 was designed to feed ball ammo, and I always found that ball worked well. And the copper jacket tended to help things along too.

A soft nose cast lead ball probably would do more damage though.


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

Packard said:


> But to address your question, I cannot imagine how that statement can make much sense. The 1911 was designed to feed ball ammo, and I always found that ball worked well. And the copper jacket tended to help things along too.


That's my point also but, I think Bill Wilson knows a little bit about the workings of a 1911 and what makes it work and not work well. I don't understand the statement either but I certainly don't have the background to refute statements made by one of the premier custom 1911 makers in the world. I was hoping someone here might have expert insight into this rather than an opinion.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

DepOne said:


> That's my point also but, I think Bill Wilson knows a little bit about the workings of a 1911 and what makes it work and not work well. I don't understand the statement either but I certainly don't have the background to refute statements made by one of the premier custom 1911 makers in the world. I was hoping someone here might have expert insight into this rather than an opinion.


Bill Wilson also sells ammo, none of which is ball...


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

And he has made that statement long before he was in the ammo business. What do you think he is, a multimillionaire mogul out to screw the public with the massive amounts of ammo he sells? I really get sick of people that immediately think anyone in business does nothing but tell lies to line his pockets. Give me a break. I asked a simple question and that's hardly constructive input.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Some guys just think like that. Wilson ammo is relatively new, very accurate and pretty expensive. Not for the plinker in the crowd. If Bill Wilson says it..... that is pretty hard to beat in the "I know from which I speak" category. Heck maybe he is just trying to get guys not to buy his guns so he can go out of business and retire. Then he won't have to work anymore, sabotage his own company...yeah more time off.

RCG


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## DepOne (Oct 15, 2011)

I think his son is pretty much running the show now, but I'm sure he's still lurking in the background.


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