# What if scenario. Self-defense or not.



## HardLivin (Mar 5, 2008)

Suppose this happens in North Carolina. What's your opinion on the following scenario based on your understanding of the law? NC has no Castle Doctrine.

*Here's the scene:*
You have a concealed handgun in your vehicle. You're in your car at a stop light. There is no physical way of removing yourself from this situation without exiting your vehicle due to cars surronding you. Even if you could exit the vehicle, you have the complication of removing three other family members from the vehicle safely and timely. A person comes up to your rolled down window and demands your wallet, your wife's purse, whatever. You say no, not happening. The person then begins a physical altercation through the window to which you have to defend yourself physically. You, as a man, have not seen a weapon yet but you are now in fear for your life, your loved ones' lives, and/or grave bodily harm to any and all of you. This guy isn't making any headway by fighting you through your window so he retreats from your window but not the scene. He then reaches into his jacket, pants, behind his back, wherever.... but now you have a very strong suspicion that things are getting ready to go bad, fast.... and you still haven't seen the weapon but you know you're getting ready to. At this exact point in time, not a second later..... What does the state/federal law allow you to do to defend yourself giving this entire situation? You have yet to see a weapon.

*Background information as I understand it:*

In NC, you have a duty to retreat when not on your own property and a vehicle does not qualify as property in this case. In the above situation, retreating was not an option so I assume self defense in a public area would be within the law.

Could you be deemed the "Instigator" because you did not comply with the person's request to hand over your possesions. I would assume not. Demand for my possesions was instigated by this person. What's the jury going to think?

In NC, a man has to see a weapon before a deadly weapon can be used in self defense. A woman does not, she can be in fear of sexual assault and does not need to see a weapon.

This is not a question of what would you do to protect yourself or your family. It is simply what provisions does the law provide you to protect yourself in a yet to become but a certainly imminent deadly situation.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm in NC so I'll take a stab at this one.

I was in that situation, and the guy had his body through the window and was attacking me, I'd be drawing my gun. The SOB has demanded my money and is now physically assaulting me through my window. Weapon visible or not, I feared for my safety and the safety of my wife and kids. I probably would not fire though and hope the guy would have enough common sense to realize that my money was not worth dying for as he was looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. By that time, I would hope, the light would have turned green and I was driving away, calling 911. However if I did have my gun drawn, he walked away and looked like he was going for a weapon, I would more than likely shoot. Again, he has already established the fact he's willing to assault me and my family, he looked like he was reaching for a weapon, and I was still in fear (even more so) for my safety and my family's safety. Would I lose my gun? Yup, it's evidence. Would I be arrested? Maybe. Would a jury convict me if I did go to trial? Hopefully not. Would my family be alive? Yes, and that's all that matters. 

I don't see how you'd be considered the instigator as you were sitting at a red light, minding your business, and some BG demanded your money. 

Situations like this make me glad that we're moving back to FL where there is a castle doctrine and no duty to retreat to give scumbags like the one in this scenario a fighting chance.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

I don't care where I am at if he comes through the window he will be shot weapon or no weapon. I may do time but my family will go home with out harm at all cost.


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

Luckily in MI we have the Castle Doctrine with no duty to retreat and we only have to be in FEAR of death, great bodily harm, sexual assault or rape to justify using force to defend ourselves or someone else. 

Even so, in this situation I would just give the guy my wallet. He'll get 40 bucks max and my credit cards (which will be cancelled five minutes later.) I'd get as much info. as possible (physical description, direction he fled, plate number etc.) and let the police deal with him. While this may not seem like the "manly" thing to do, it keeps me from the possibility of spending $40,000 on a defense attorney and my kids being traumatized from seeing a human being killed in front of their eyes. Worse yet would be the guy starting to shoot back with lots of innocent bystanders (like my wife and children ) around. Remember, even with several direct hits from a handgun many people can continue the fight. For what, pocket change?

To clarify, I say this in response to the scenario you laid out. The first thing the BG did was demand your money and you refused which escalated the conflict (not saying your the instigator but your refusal escalated the situation). If I gave the individual the money and that did not satisfy him the entire situation would change. At that point you could conclude rather decisively that his motives extend beyond robbery and I feel the use of force against him would be unquestioned. Just my opinion!


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## Mark Metz (May 8, 2007)

*I somewhat disagree...*

How many headlines have you seen that the money was turned over then the BG shot anyway. If at all possible I'm hitting the gas and taking his melon with me...if not he's going to have my muzzle in his mouth. Most likely by this time though my wife would have already put a bullet or two in his direction...she's a hot head.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Mark Metz said:


> How many headlines have you seen that the money was turned over then the BG shot anyway.


Big +1 on that! There's no regard for life. You do as you're told and you still get shot. They'd just as soon shoot you than not. Why? No witness.


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

Mark Metz said:


> How many headlines have you seen that the money was turned over then the BG shot anyway. If at all possible I'm hitting the gas and taking his melon with me...if not he's going to have my muzzle in his mouth. Most likely by this time though my wife would have already put a bullet or two in his direction...she's a hot head.


If you read my post I stated that I was reacting to the scenario he laid out. At no time during the scenario was a gun present for the BG to shoot you with (just the belief). The BG bacame agitated when the GG didn't give up the money. I did clarify that if the BG wasn't satisfied even after being given the wallet the entire scenario would change and force wouldn't be a question. The scenario also stated that other cars were around making stepping on the gas to escape a impossibility, otherwise, that would be the best response to this situation.


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## HardLivin (Mar 5, 2008)

These responses are more of the "What I would do" and understandably so. I know exactly what I would do. My priorities would be simple: my family's, mine, and the public's safety.

But with the given scenario, what are the legal provisions to protect my family and myself with deadly force? None?

I certainly escalated the situation by not submitting to the BG. However, as I understand it, my state does not require my submission to anybody (except LEO) just to avoid escalating a situation into a potentially deadly one but I certainly understand how that could be the preferred route.

Retreat is not an option in the above scenario. From a legal perspective, do I have to see the BG's weapon before I can draw down on him given his physical attack and lack of desire to retreat from the scene?


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

But with the given scenario, what are the legal provisions to protect my family and myself with deadly force? None?

]
The legal provisions unfortunately vary state by state. In MI we have the "Castle Doctrine" laws. They state we do not have a duty to retreat from ANYWHERE we have legal right to be. You only have to be in FEAR of death, bodily harm, sexual assault or rape of yourself or someone else but your response must still proportionate to the threat (you can't shoot an unarmed person for shoving you etc.). You must be an innocent victim. The burden is put on the prosecutor to prove you were unjustified if they want to file charges and if you cannot be prosecuted you cannot be sued. If you are sued the state pays all costs and fees. 

Unfortunately I believe only 14-15 states offer this type of protection to the average citizen and you should really find out exactly what the laws are in your state.


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## HardLivin (Mar 5, 2008)

vernpriest said:


> But with the given scenario, what are the legal provisions to protect my family and myself with deadly force? None?
> 
> ]
> The legal provisions unfortunately vary state by state. In MI we have the "Castle Doctrine" laws. They state we do not have a duty to retreat from ANYWHERE we have legal right to be. You only have to be in FEAR of death, bodily harm, sexual assault or rape of yourself or someone else but your response must still proportionate to the threat (you can't shoot an unarmed person for shoving you etc.). You must be an innocent victim. The burden is put on the prosecutor to prove you were unjustified if they want to file charges and if you cannot be prosecuted you cannot be sued. If you are sued the state pays all costs and fees.
> ...


I understand and agree that one should know exactly the laws they fall under within their jurisdiction.

NC is also a state where you can only meet force with like force. In this scenario, my gut tells me I would have to wait until I saw a weapon before I could use mine. I would have to disregard the physical attack in making the decision to pull a gun on the BG. In NC, from what I understand, a male victim can use any legal weapon (gun included) once the BG shows a weapon of anykind, even if it is a stick.

In this scenario, it would seem that I could only draw a gun once I had positively identified a weapon on the BG and hopefully once that happens, I would have enough time to beat the BG to the trigger pull.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

HardLivin said:


> The person then begins a physical altercation through the window to which you have to defend yourself physically.


Have wife call 911.
Scream for help, don't hurt my family and say you are handing over your money, repeatedly.
Remove keys from ignition.
While screaming for help, use keys to remove BG's eyes.


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