# Justified Deadly Force



## Marcus99 (Apr 23, 2008)

I just finished reading Chapter 3 of my "Essentials of Criminal Justice" book by Larry Seigel for my Intro to Criminal Justice class and a particular part of the chapter stood out to me. In the section of self-defense it goes a bit into detail of the use of deadly force...

_"Persons can be found guilty of murder in the first degree if after being attacked during a brawl they shot and killed an unarmed person in self-defense. The defendant can be found guilty despite the fact that it was the victim who initiated the fray and pummeled his opponent first; the imbalance in weaponry (gun versus fist) would mitigate a finding of self-defense."_

Obviously, this is only a single situation, but it got me thinking. Clearly, if someone gives you a sucker punch you don't pull out your carry gun and shoot him, but is that to say that if an argument gets out of hand and the other guy really starts going at you that you cannot pull out your carry gun even after sustaining some serious blows. What if you only display the firearm, is that illegal as well? and what if your involved in a fight with someone and you're at a disadvantage due to physical size or age, does that qualify/disqualify a display or usage of your concealed carry because you're in a fight so therefore both people are wrong and a use of a firearm is illegal no matter what? Basically, when exactly is deadly force justified?

I'm new to this major I'm studying and I'll probably get all these questions answered in other criminal justice courses in my years coming up, but I'd hate to wait that long. If you guys wouldn't mind discussing this I'd love that to add to my preparedness for my major as well as my CCW when I become eligible in a few years.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

It comes down to the conditions set by a prosecutor as to reasonable defense compared to the adversary and situation. Outnumbered is one thing, one on one is another and the shift from defender to agressor depends generally on who escalates first and to what degree. *1 has fists #2 gets sucker punched and pulls a gun. #2 has ecalated the situation dramatically. Right and wrong start to fade away and the more prominent arguement becomes justified or not. That then is determined by a reasonable jury based on the arguements posed by the attourneys.

I am not a legal expert nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

What is and isn't justifiable is going to vary from state to state. And even if you are in the right legally, the dearly departed’s family is going to sue the pants off of you and either they will take everything you have or you will spend everything you have trying to defend yourself.

If you knew the attacker was trained in hand to hand fighting techniques and he verbalized a threat of deadly force (I'm going to kill you!!!), you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself (here in NY anyway). But you'll still have a multi-million dollar judgement hanging over your head for the rest of your life. :smt022


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm 56 and might be good for two or three counter punches before I ran out of gas. If some young buck starts beating on me for no reason I think it will be his last time to pick on an easy mark. I just hope my public defender is pro gun and has a few marbles between his ears. I'm a really mellow fellow and I don't rile up easy so it would be a blatant attack. I'd have to feel like I was in danger for my health before I blew him in half though. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do and pick up the pieces later :numbchuck:

The Duke said it best!
"A man's got to have a code, a creed to live by. I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." 

John Wayne 

"The Shootist"


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

As was mentioned already the answer to your question depends on what state the incident might take place. Also, you are never going to get a clear cut answer to your question in a CJ textbook. What you are looking for is something one would discuss in law school or in a good legal class at a police academy.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Marcus99 said:


> I'm new to this major I'm studying and I'll probably get all these questions answered in other criminal justice courses in my years coming up, but I'd hate to wait that long. If you guys wouldn't mind discussing this I'd love that to add to my preparedness for my major as well as my CCW when I become eligible in a few years.


It is not a good idea to add a bunch of other peoples opinions to your legal study.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Got to +1 with unpecador :smt1099


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with the guys who say you should ask an attorney or your professor. But there are a few general things...

The concept of disparity of force can be a vague one. I'm a fairly small guy at 5'8" and average build. If I got in a fight with a guy who is 5'10", I'd likely be in deep kimchee if I shot him. However, if a 6'5" martial artist starts kicking my head in with engineer boots, I am probably safe to shoot him (and I would, taking my chances with the legal consequences).

If I have martial arts or boxing experience, a jury might look poorly on me going to guns unless the situation were truly dire. 

The disabled, the elderly, small-statured women, etc., can all go to guns faster, especially when facing a young, strong opponent. This would probably come up more in the context of a true attack, though, rather than a "brawl," which has connotations of combat by (perhaps tacit) agreement.

I carry pepper spray for a reason. :mrgreen:


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

I have read a couple books...One by Ayoob that he put out in the 80's and it has lots of good general info...I recently have thought of a scenario that could play out a couple of ways..

I play in a band and I play about 3 or 4 weekends a month..I help our sound guy with the PA and I am the drummer..So I am always the last one to leave...We usually finish playing at 2 a.m. and it is usually 3 a.m. before I am leaving to go home....Suppose some guy was watching and waiting, knowing I just got paid cash from the gig and now I am gonna be alone in the parking lot at 3 a.m.....If he happens to catch me by surprise (I keep myslef very aware of my surroundings and avoid this at all costs) and gets close and pulls a gun and says "give me your money or I will kill you"...If he has the gun drawn and on me and mine is not drawn, I am a sure dead man to try to draw...if I say "no problem" and go into my pocket and get a gun and bring it out and plant a few in his chest, what happens?

I call the cops and say a guy just put a gun to my face and threatened to kill me, I drew my gun which I legally own, registered and have permit to carry and shot this guy...I am sure the cop will see what is what when he (they) get there...I know I will be cuffed and questioned untill they sort it out...#1...I DO NOT drink, so my being impaired will not come into play..I am a musician that just was attempted to be robbed...it looks like a cut and dry case of justification....Suppose the cop/lawyer/judge/jury ask what happened? what was said? and I say that the guy stuck a gun in my face and said give your your money or I will kill you...they will say that if I would have given up the money, the guy might have taken it and walked away with nobody getting shot or dying, but I CHOSE to shoot and took this guy's life....Suppose the gun this guy had was a Co2 pellet pistol he bought at walmart...they look real similar to a glock or XD...I am sure the guy would not let me look at it to confirm it as this is happening...at that moment I have to choose what to do, but no matter what, if I kill this guy and his family hires a lawyer it is gonna be an uphill battle...

Let's say the guy has a knife and he comes up on me and jabs me with it and we scuffle. I pull my gun and shoot the guy...he dies...no witnesses. The family gets a lawyer and says maybe this guy came up and asked me for a smoke and in my panic and being scared I pulled a gun. This guy thought maybe he should defend himself and pulled his knife and was able to stab me and in the end I shot and killed him....In ANY case in ANY state ANYTHING can happen and things can get twisted around...

But I do know that if my life IS in danger and I am able, I will defend myself and do what I gotta do..

Willy


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Some opinions from a pragmatic viewpoint.

Your grade in your course will depend more on the content of your professor's lectures and assigned reading than what you might know is right.

Regardless of the scenario and local laws, whether or not you are criminally prosecuted in a 'defensive' shooting will have to do more with the judgement of the officers on the scene and the local DA. Even if the prosecutorial pretext is unjustified and the law is on your side, you will be out at least 50k in legal fees.

The only defense against civil suit is Castle Doctrine. Whether or not Castle Doctrine applies depends on the criminal case. Count on another 50k in legal fees.

The only real defense you have is to avoid situations that can result in violent confrontation and de-escalate conflicts if you can. If these options are just not possible, greater safety is in numbers. Surround yourself with buddies you can rely on to step up and do the same for them. This is not to deliver a pounding but for witnesses and to pull the little asshole off you before he can do damage.

PS. Get your NRA membership.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Man I am glad I live in Florida. If it's a justifiable shoot in this state the family can not sue. Pulling a gun (even fake) or knife on someone down here can get you a pine box. Police can pretty well tell what has happen from almost any crime scene. Still going to cost you a small bundle unless it's in your car or home.


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

Chances are if my situation happens and I feel like this guy is gonna rob me and take off, I will just give up the money...Giving up a couple hundred bucks is better than getting shot or killed or dealing with killing someone. I usually will pull my vehicle up close to where I will be taking the equipment out..Then time is on my side as all the people in the bar are long gone and the parking lot is empty...Only the people from the bar are there cleaning up..I usually will look outside and survey the parking lot before I just blindly walk out...It is only a few steps to the truck and I am in, doors locked and rolling away....I usually keep my cash in a place other than my wallet...in my wallet I keep the small bills (10's, 5's and singles) so if they say give me your wallet, no problem...

Avoidance is top of my list...shooting would be last thing and only if I thought I was gonna get beat to death my multiple guys, a guy with a weapon or stabbed or shot..This is a situation where showing the weapon can diffuse...Guy walks up and says he wants my wallet and I see both hands empty, he would be looking down a barrel in a short time...

Willy


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Deleted


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

To make it simple, as I'm on lunch break,

If they are not threatening to end your life, punch back, run. 
If they say they are going to kill you, you can ask all the other questions later, if you survive. I know the legal end comes into play, but seriously, if someone told me they were going to kill me, if they said those words... lights out for them.

Zhur


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> I agree with the guys who say you should ask an attorney or your professor. But there are a few general things...
> 
> The concept of disparity of force can be a vague one. I'm a fairly small guy at 5'8" and average build. If I got in a fight with a guy who is 5'10", I'd likely be in deep kimchee if I shot him. However, if a 6'5" martial artist starts kicking my head in with engineer boots, I am probably safe to shoot him (and I would, taking my chances with the legal consequences).
> 
> ...


I liked this answer best so far. It's got good balance to it. The bottom line is that the gun stays in your pants until you have no other choice. It's the tool of last resort. I think even if I were being robbed unless the guy got really agressive it ain't worth the trouble. A few bucks is cheaper than a lawyer any day of the week.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

gmaske said:


> I think even if I were being robbed unless the guy got really agressive it ain't worth the trouble. A few bucks is cheaper than a lawyer any day of the week.


So you would let somebody rob you even if you are carrying a gun and as long as the BG doesn't get too aggressive?


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

unpecador said:


> So you would let somebody rob you even if you are carrying a gun and as long as the BG doesn't get too aggressive?


Frankly....yes. He's already got the drop on me so if all he really wants is the few bucks in my pocket it ain't wort the escalation and higher risk factor of being cut or shot. If he gets my money and turns his back to leave then it's revenge if I shoot him and were does that leave you when the cops show up? It really depends on if the guy is showing signs that I'm dead meat either way but in that case he would have made his attack already anyway. If you think on it a bit you'll see my point. Just cause I got a gun in my pants doesn't mean I'm Superman all of a sudden.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

gmaske said:


> Frankly....yes. He's already got the drop on me so if all he really wants is the few bucks in my pocket it ain't wort the escalation and higher risk factor of being cut or shot. If he gets my money and turns his back to leave then it's revenge if I shoot him and were does that leave you when the cops show up? It really depends on if the guy is showing signs that I'm dead meat either way but in that case he would have made his attack already anyway. If you think on it a bit you'll see my point. Just cause I got a gun in my pants doesn't mean I'm Superman all of a sudden.


If you say the BG has already got the drop on you then perhaps you should be more aware of your surroundings. Why would you assume that all the BG wants to do is to take your money? How would you know for sure if the BG won't cut or shoot you anyways? How about taking a few steps back and create some distance in between you and the BG? What have you got to lose if you already assume you're dead meat anyways?


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

gmaske said:


> If you think on it a bit you'll see my point. Just cause I got a gun in my pants doesn't mean I'm Superman all of a sudden.


Thought about it more and I've come to the conclusion that you are exactly what the BG ordered... and it appears you would be carrying. You may have a gun in your pants but apparently no balls.


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

I know just speaking for me...I run those types of scenarios through my head all the time...I am most vulnerable the last 20 minutes when I am at the bar alone loading my car and leaving..When I am loading the car, I have both hands full of drums and I am trying to get done..Usually before that, I am helping our sound guy load his trailer...there are two of us and every trip out I look around the parking lot to see if there is a car sitting or anything weird...Once he leaves, then I go pack my kit up and load it in the car...I make sure the car is the closest to the building as I can get, so I am not walking across a parking lot...but assuming someone is clever and hides in the shadows somehow and when I walk that last 10 feet, he is able to get behind be and the first sound I here is the click from a hammer back and the guy says to stop, not turn around and give me your wallet. at that point even if I had a gun in my hand inside my pocket, I would be hard pressed to pull it, spin around and get a shot off before I get shot. If I have to draw from a holster anywhere on me, that is even that much more...If this guy is nervous he could shoot me even by flinching...So at that point, I have a loaded gun on me and he has his pointed at me..I cannot see him or evaluate anything other than his voice...What are my options?? Give the wallet up to avoid being shot..that is why I keep my cash somewhere else...

Now if I see someone approaching me, I hope that I can read body language and get a feeling of good or bad intent..I try to maintain as much distance as I can and put my own body language out to appear strong and prepaired...here is where a fine line comes in...Usually you pull because of immediate and imminant (sp?) danger...That means a strong verbal threat, a visible weapon, etc,as this person is bearing down on you. This is where a snubby in my hand in my coat pocket could be the quickest presentation and defense...Distance is what I want to maintain, possibly backing up to keep it...If the guy has a club or a knife when he gets close he is gonna see the barrel...whether he gets shot at that point will be his choice...if he has a drawn gun, then other things come into play..No situation is cut and dry...if the guy has a drawn gun and I cannot get mine out, he has the upper hand..if he robs me and turns to walk away, I dont think I can legally shoot him..The immediate threat of my life ending in the eyes of the law is over...deadly force cannot be used...

Lots of things become factors...

Willy


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

unpecador said:


> Thought about it more and I've come to the conclusion that you are exactly what the BG ordered... and it appears you would be carrying. You may have a gun in your pants but apparently no balls.


Nice. A personal attack over a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation. I thought that was only allowed on political threads... :buttkick:


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

kev74 said:


> Nice. A personal attack over a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation. I thought that was only allowed on political threads... :buttkick:


The Devil made me do it. :smt077


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

We can't be alert enough to anticipate every threat that could ever possibly materialize. It's a cop-out to say "Well, if you were in Yellow, you would have seen the threat." Crap happens in real life, and sometimes undesirable people get close to us. Very occasionally, they try to hurt us.

I have no real issues with someone making the informed decision to give up a little bit of cash to avoid shooting someone. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to use to respond to every situation. *gmaske*'s decision to fork over a hundred bucks or whatever may be perfectly rational when compared against the $50K or so in attorney's fees he may have to pay if he shoots a guy. And the fact that he decides to cough up the cash doesn't prevent him from shooting if he sees the need and an opening to do so with reasonable safety.

Weighing the cost-benefit ratio, I might do the same, while carefully eyeballing the guy to see if I will need to shoot him. It's not so much a lack of courage (or "balls," if you prefer). It's more that I can swallow a lot of pride to avoid shooting someone. I don't have anything to prove, and I certainly have nothing to prove to some lowlife street criminal whose opinion of me matters not a whit.

Just because you _can_ shoot doesn't mean you _should_ shoot. And just because you don't shoot doesn't make you a coward. It may, in fact, make you smart.


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is what Mike said:

We can't be alert enough to anticipate every threat that could ever possibly materialize. It's a cop-out to say "Well, if you were in Yellow, you whould have seen the threat." Crap happens in real life, and sometimes undesirable people get close to us. Very occasionally, they try to hurt us.


Look at the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan...Broad daylight, secret service agents surrounding him. Guns ready..Highly trained..alert and ready for any threat on the presidents life...Then look at the gunman, his gun and training...A wacko with a 6 shot 22 cal revolver...Not trained in shooting, bought the gun at a pawn shop and hit 4 different people with the six shots....

Willy


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

I never said the best thing to do is shoot nor have I made any suggestions to shoot or taking any unlawful actions. I don't view it as pride either, I do not like the idea of submitting and then hoping everything works out for the best based on BG's good faith if such exists. However, to each his own.

I realize that I was out of line for making that comment about *gmaske*, it was an assumption and inappropriate on my part.


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

unpecador.....I, like you, cringe at the very thought of having a gun on me, knowing how to use it and giving up money to some ass who comes up and sticks a gun in my face...I have never had this happen and I hope I never do...Ever since I first bought my first gun, I have played that scenario through my head...I have talked to people and read stuff (In the Gravest Extreme, by Ayoob and quite a few stories he has written in handgun magazines) and what that has done is made me stop and think of things...I have read Ayoobs book on combat handgunnery too...I want to be prepaired mentally and physically IF something like that should ever arise and at the same time, I hope it never happens to me and I try to think ahead and not get in that situation....

If it ever happens, what will be impprtant is what I DO DO and not what I should do or could do...I hope I make the right choices..I really do

Willy


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Reading books and magazines is okay, but if this stuff really concerns you, don't buy yet another gun. Spend the money on training instead. I've taken Ayoob's LFI-1 course, and it is well worth the money and time.

_"You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."_ - Barrett Tillman


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Willy D said:


> unpecador.....I, like you, cringe at the very thought of having a gun on me, knowing how to use it


Huh...? I don't carry but I'm very comfortable with handling guns regardless.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> We can't be alert enough to anticipate every threat that could ever possibly materialize. It's a cop-out to say "Well, if you were in Yellow, you would have seen the threat." Crap happens in real life, and sometimes undesirable people get close to us. Very occasionally, they try to hurt us.
> 
> I have no real issues with someone making the informed decision to give up a little bit of cash to avoid shooting someone. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to use to respond to every situation. *gmaske*'s decision to fork over a hundred bucks or whatever may be perfectly rational when compared against the $50K or so in attorney's fees he may have to pay if he shoots a guy. And the fact that he decides to cough up the cash doesn't prevent him from shooting if he sees the need and an opening to do so with reasonable safety.
> 
> ...


*EXACTLY MY POINT!*
Thank you sir! :smt023


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

unpecador
I'd rather keep my balls and loose a few bucks than the other way around! No harm no foul and thanks for the PM.

Every situation has its veriables so what you could or should do is diffrent for each circumstance. Step one should always be to try and avoid getting in to a corner in the first place. Now that I can and do carry I see things a bit diffrently. I'm old enough to know that there are going to be times that if somebody has the upper hand you do what you need to do to survive. If things start to get bad you still have the ultimate option. It is easy to sit in front of a computer and think, "I have a gun so no one is ever going to get the better of me", but reality can be quite diffrent. I find that the more I think on it the more I question just what would justify deadly force. If you are confronted with deadly force then by all means if you can defend yourself then do it and don't mess around about it but there is a lot of gray to concider also.
The points and questions asked in the original post are very good ones. Anyone that carries needs to think on them.
(I just keep adding to this)
(A side note)
When I finally got my CCL and started to carry the biggest thing I felt was a sense of *responsibility!* At the very least I'm glad I was mature enough to see that.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

You're welcome. :smt023

I am well aware of real life situations, I have defended myself on more than one occasion and in each of those, the thought of submitting never crossed my mind as I had no intention of finding out what would happen if I cooperated. The concern that I have when somebody has the upper hand over me is trusting them not to do me harm even if I cooperate.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

unpecador said:


> The concern that I have when somebody has the upper hand over me is trusting them not to do me harm even if I cooperate.


......and there in lies the rub! If you are young and quick and you see your chance then it's your play. When you get older and stove up a bit you have to think about it a bit more.....BUT.....Just remember, Old men don't fight fair! :numbchuck:


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Understood sir. 

I too would prefer to cheat in a fight as well.


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## Kyle1337 (Mar 22, 2008)

my .02 cents. From my own couple of personal experiences of being acosted with a gun to me twice and a knife while working I've found that feigning weakness can give you a way bigger advantage in a "fight" or confrontation with an armed individual. The outcomes depending on the circumstances can hardly been seen in most situations, that will change once we're all able to read minds. Both times of being acosted I was armed myself. With the knife incident, I talked the person down even though I had an asp and oc spray at my disposal. But I didn't use them. My verbal judo actually worked! Now while at gun point I just gave them what they wanted, so I had to cancel my cards and checks. I never carry cash. No biggie. However when it comes down to lethal force that's depedant on a million different reasons, circumstances, thought processes, thinking and yes possibly even feelings, its hard to let those go and think clearly in a fast paced stressful situation. That's why we train and train and train. So it becomes muscle memory and those feelings and thoughts don't interfere. Anyway, I'm veering a little off track. My final thoughts on this is only this in the very end of using lethal force, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I was held up, Jennings .22 or .25 held to my head as I sat in the passenger seat of my wife's car, by a 16-year-old kid and his friend. They wanted some cash to play with, in the nearby video-game parlor.
I lived in a city that did not allow its citizens to carry a defensive gun, so, pursuant to the law, I was unarmed at the time.
The kid didn't get my money because I wouldn't coöperate and I fought back, and also because my wife blew the car's horn to scare the kid. The two of them ran off.
I still think about it: Had I been armed, I would've killed at least one 16-year-old child.
That possibility still bothers me.


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