# PT-111 G2 What a great Value!



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

About 1-1/2 yrs ago I bought a Taurus PT-111 G2 for less than 240.00 inc. tax and fees. Like many I was skeptical because of the stories of reliability issues I had heard about Taurus, but after reading all the positive reviews on You Tube and the great price I decided to take a chance. It a great double stack 9mmCC that IMO rivals many guns costing twice as much, its performed flawlessly, with all types of ammo. It has the best grip of any CC gun I've ever tried large enough to fit my meat hooks and molded in grip texture beats any Talon grip tape I've tried, and I'll never have to go through the mess of removing and reapplying tape. I can say its been a joy to own I use it as a EDC along with my Bersa and my LCP it all depends on time of year and type of clothes I'm wearing. PT-111 G2 its a real value!


----------



## Livingthedream (Feb 27, 2016)

Cannon said:


> About 1-1/2 yrs ago I bought a Taurus PT-111 G2 for less than 240.00 inc. tax and fees. Like many I was skeptical because of the stories of reliability issues I had heard about Taurus, but after reading all the positive reviews on You Tube and the great price I decided to take a chance. It a great double stack 9mmCC that IMO rivals many guns costing twice as much, its performed flawlessly, with all types of ammo. It has the best grip of any CC gun I've ever tried large enough to fit my meat hooks and molded in grip texture beats any Talon grip tape I've tried, and I'll never have to go through the mess of removing and reapplying tape. I can say its been a joy to own I use it as a EDC along with my Bersa and my LCP it all depends on time of year and type of clothes I'm wearing. PT-111 G2 its a real value!


I felt the same way in the beginning. Read all the revues most were positive . I figured for a few hundred dollars what the hell. It turned out to be a big mistake . Was affected by the broken trigger safety issue along with possibly a few thousand people. Had a nightmare experience with Taurus cs had to wait 12 weeks for a repair. As far as I am concerned not sure I can ever trust it again. I hope the replacement trigger safety is a more solid piece not prone to breaking. You have been lucky so far. Hope you never have to send in for repair. All the aggravation I have experienced with my G2 was not worth half what I paid. Trying to sell it but it is damn near worthless. My LGS will not even take it on a trade.
Most manufactures have problems from time to time but it is how they prepare and handle the problems. Taurus does a shitty job of it . Quality control also sucks.
Forgot to mention that shipping is not included with your lifetime warranty. After 90 days you are responsible for return shipping which can cost up to $60.00 .


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Hey, *Cannon*, can you tell me about how many shots you've fired through that Taurus of yours, to date?


----------



## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

I own 2 G2 pistols. I have fired over 2500 rds between the two with zero malfunctions. I'm not sure what Livingthedream is going on about since the G2 was not part of the Millenium recall. I've owned older Millenium models and the G2 is a far superior product. I don't doubt that others have had trouble with their pistols, but I've never had any issues with the Taurus pistols that I have owned. In my experience, I'm more inclined to suspect the owner than the product.


----------



## Recoil1 (Apr 26, 2016)

The G2s that were bought towards the end of the year last year are having broken trigger safety's. I had one also. My G2 was made in July. Mine also was in Florida for repair for 12 weeks, they said they were waiting on parts. There was a poll on another forum and 10% of respondents had a broken trigger safety.


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

My G2 had less than 400 rounds and less then 2 months old, when it broke, it was in Florida for almost 3 months. It won't be in my carry line up for a long time, also starting to see a lot of the recoil springs starting to go bad to. It's like everything else some are good some are not, but when it comes to me protecting ny family I'll choice a more relieable gun, won't take the chance on it not working wnen I need it. Like I always say it's my opinion every body has one.


----------



## Livingthedream (Feb 27, 2016)

hud35500 said:


> I own 2 G2 pistols. I have fired over 2500 rds between the two with zero malfunctions. I'm not sure what Livingthedream is going on about since the G2 was not part of the Millenium recall. I've owned older Millenium models and the G2 is a far superior product. I don't doubt that others have had trouble with their pistols, but I've never had any issues with the Taurus pistols that I have owned. In my experience, I'm more inclined to suspect the owner than the product.


Hundreds if not thousands of people have had problems with their G2' s. I owned a recalled Pt111 millPro .Taurus replaced it with a G2 , waited 6 months for it, then I had the problem with the G2 trigger. Between the 2 guns Taurus has had them longer than I have. I have read multiple posts on multiple forums and most have preferred there recalled ptmillpro's back. As far as the hundreds of triggers breaking and the recoil spring issue's you can't possibly be implying that is from user error? You must not be very experienced!!! I have and have owned many handgun's from multiple manufacturer's and have never heard of hundreds of people having the same issue and it not being a problem with quality and manufacturing of the firearm. If it was any other manufacturer there would probable be a recall for the trigger safety blade but it would most likely bankrupted the company since they are in the hole for $44 million plus from the lawsuit plus the cost's of replacing all the guns effected by the recall somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 thousand to 100 thousand guns covering some 8 or 9 models.Their stock has plummeted over the past year.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Hey, *Cannon*, can you tell me about how many shots you've fired through that Taurus of yours, to date?


That's the $64,000 question. With so many bad comments from people who've actually owned them it's a wonder that Taurus is still in business. I find that you can't go by what's printed in any of the firearms publications. After all they earn their bread and butter from the manufacturers that advertise in them. Including, I hate to say "The American Rifleman". There's a reason why it's only a $240 dollar gun. And that's retail. It probably cost them around $75 to manufacture if that. No credible manufacturer is going to be making a gun that is worth $500 and selling it for $240. Maybe it's just me but I would never purchase anything that I was skeptical about. You may as well flush your money down the toilet hoping that you'll get a return on your investment.

Buying a firearm is not like buying a cheap set of ratchets from Harbor Freight. Bust a ratchet or socket and you may smash your fingers. Having a gun blow up in your face or fail at the worst possible time could cost you your life, or the life of an innocent person and at the very least some type of serious bodily injury. Not only to the shooter but to those that may be around them. We all should be grateful for those who have shared their horror stories by admitting their mistake in buying such an inferior product. Let any future buyers beware!

I have never owned nor ever even considered handling one of Taurus products let alone buy one. The only experience I've had with one was when one of my neighbors bought one of their .38 caliber polymer revolvers. I think it was a Model 85? The damn thing locked up the very first time she tried to dry fire it. Straight out of the box. She is a real estate agent, didn't know jack shit about guns or the cost of a decent one but wanted one for personal protection. She bought it from a sporting goods store who wouldn't take it back and instead told her that she had to ship it back to Taurus for repairs. Their salesperson probably didn't know shit about guns either. More than likely he/she worked in the sneakers department. You won't find too many gunsmiths that will work on them. Could be more of a liability issue if anything? Or the cost to fix it may be more than what the guns are worth? Besides there are no parts available for them anyway. To make them from scratch would more than likely be cost prohibitive. I work on my own guns, always have and have no idea what gunsmiths charge per hour.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

Wow I'm thinking if there are so many problems why You Tube doesn't show them? They sure do about other brands? Anyway as far as rounds down the pipe its in excess of 1,0000. Never had a trigger problem with the G2, I do know there were some issues with the original PT-111 Millennium Pro. But the G2 has been avail. for over 3yrs now, sorry a few here have had issues with theirs but I'm thinking if it were a major problem You Tube would be lit up with people warning others to avoid the G2. Anyway the gun has proven itself to me to be a low cost reliable CC pistol, and that's all that matters to me.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Congratulations: You got a good one!


(I assume that you meant one-thousand rounds, not ten-thousand. Right?)


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

Yeah Steve 1,000 but the gun has been a solid performer with no issues.


----------



## Livingthedream (Feb 27, 2016)

There are some good one's out there that were manufactured properly . But many were not and got through their poor quality control.
Just read on another sight that G2 owner just got his new gun back from Taurus after a trigger safety break took it to range and pulled trigger, no click, no bang and slide locked up. Let's try and justify this one. O wait maybe it was user error!!!!!!


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

I'm not doubting Livingthedream but if this trigger problem was such a huge problem you can bet it would be all over You Tube. I see very few problem posts about the G2, the reason I like You Tube so much is most reviewers are regular guys like you & me, they tell us just what they think about a gun or pistol. I see fluff pieces by some shooting publications that are filled with ads for guns and I sometimes doubt their opinion. Their are many follow up posts about the G2 and how it has performed, I know if I had a problem I'd post up the issue on You Tube, will the G2 fail? Yes in time all things do! But I'm hoping that day will be many years away.


----------



## Livingthedream (Feb 27, 2016)

Cannon said:


> I'm not doubting Livingthedream but if this trigger problem was such a huge problem you can bet it would be all over You Tube. I see very few problem posts about the G2, the reason I like You Tube so much is most reviewers are regular guys like you & me, they tell us just what they think about a gun or pistol. I see fluff pieces by some shooting publications that are filled with ads for guns and I sometimes doubt their opinion. Their are many follow up posts about the G2 and how it has performed, I know if I had a problem I'd post up the issue on You Tube, will the G2 fail? Yes in time all things do! But I'm hoping that day will be many years away.


It is a big problem with one survey on another forum suggesting that 10% of 100.000 guns are effected. Not every one is a youtuber.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

So true livingthedream not everyone is a You Tuber, and I realize you were affected by this issue but to make claims based on a survey? Is at best only a guess and not based on actual warranty claims of trigger problems. Not saying your wrong or that you don't have a problem, but that gun does have a lifetime warranty, so send it in they will fix it. If this were such a chronic problem You Tube would be lit up with people complaining about it... So far the people complaining are a very small number vs. the people that are amazed at the value of the G2.


----------



## Gainestruk (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm with Livingthedream here, go to Taurus forum and most any other that has general firearms section and you will read about it.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

Gainestruk, I'm not saying there aren't those who have had an issue with broken trigger assembly. I'm saying the actual number of defects aren't as large as some here claim. As I said they do have a lifetime warranty, they will repair it. I've been very happy with the G2 sorry a few have had problems. Every mechanical device will fail in time this also applies to firearms no matter who made them or how much they cost they do break at times. I'd rather have a lifetime warranty that comes with the G2 than a year of coverage or no warranty at all.


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

Well the way I fell you need a life time warranty with Taurus, they have so many breaking now they even changed the shipping policy for returning them. Now you get a whole 90 day free shipping ,after that it's 50 bucks. Got mine back from the broken safety trigger, only took 3 months, good service for a trigger, went to the range today 100 rounds 115 gran , federal, fired them all but it doesn't come close to my xd9 mod2, xd is far more accurate, shoots nicer, and even looks better. Like I said before when it's my life or my families life it will not be a Taurus I'll be pulling out, if I'm lucky maybe the other guy will have a Taurus.


----------



## Livingthedream (Feb 27, 2016)

Cannon said:


> Gainestruk, I'm not saying there aren't those who have had an issue with broken trigger assembly. I'm saying the actual number of defects aren't as large as some here claim. As I said they do have a lifetime warranty, they will repair it. I've been very happy with the G2 sorry a few have had problems. Every mechanical device will fail in time this also applies to firearms no matter who made them or how much they cost they do break at times. I'd rather have a lifetime warranty that comes with the G2 than a year of coverage or no warranty at all.


There was a moderator at another forum that agreed on the amount of trigger safety issues. He had direct contact with Taurus and how would you explain a 3 month wait.I do not think that est.5000 to 10000 thousand guns is considered a few defects. Let's be conservative and say 2500 to 5000. I agree that mechanical things fail but when it is due to lousy manufacturing and poor quality control on behalf of the manufacturer I have a major problem with that. Yes they do have a lifetime warranty but you are responsible for return shipping which can be pretty expensive and odds are you will have to wait 3 months for the repair to be done. All is I am saying is buyer beware. You get what you pay for. Do not try and tell me that Taurus is a reputable company with reputable products. I have read to many bad things about them. My opinion.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

Well as they say a haters gonna hate, but waiting 12 weeks for a firearms repair? I'm guessing they had issues getting parts, I've waited longer than that on a Browning BPS that was sent in for function issues took just over 4 months. This was a shotgun that failed on me 3 times in the 1-1/2yrs I owned it after the last repair I traded it for a different brand shotgun. But I still own a Browning O/U shotgun, point is any gun can give you issues. I've been very satisfied with my Taurus PT-111 G2 and would recommend it as a great low cost CC !


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

Wow for a minute there I thought I was on a different forum, being called a hater, guess next we'll be bashing the company. Just opinions some like them some don't I happen to be one that doesn't.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

joepolo, fair enough, and as you can tell like the G2,it has served me well. I think that some just can't understand how a value CC pistol can compete with guns costing much more... Me... I'm happy I took a chance and bought it.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Cannon said:


> joepolo, fair enough, and as you can tell like the G2,it has served me well. I think that some just can't understand how a value CC pistol can compete with guns costing much more... *Me... I'm happy I took a chance and bought it.*


You're happy as a pig in poop with your purchase, that's all that really counts. If you want to keep buying them fine, it makes no difference in my life. But you'll never be able to convince me and many others of what a great value Taurus products are. Maybe you got a good one? Maybe not? Only time will tell. There are just too many others that have not. More so than with many other manufacturers. That's an irrefutable fact. I'm guessing that if Taurus made such a great product you'd hardly hear of any complaints about them. If they were comparable to others that cost twice the price you'd think that they would have at least put all the other manufacturers out of business. How could those other manufacturers possibly compete?

Love 'em or hate 'em Taurus products are what they are. You do get what you pay for. As for me I'm not much of a gambler at least not enough to stake my life on a company that has had such a bad reputation for manufacturing such an inferior product. I don't know if it's the materials they use, their labor force, quality control, customer service, whatever. Dealing with any of that is just not worth the aggravation just to save a coupla' bucks. Not to mention I could never trust it. I'd never know when it would be about to fail. "Murphy's Law" I guess.

I like to call them the "Harbor Freight" of firearms. A lot of people who buy them really don't have much interest in firearms. They just want a gun for personal protection, don't want to spend a whole lot of money, don't do any research, go home throw it in a draw and forget about it. Hoping that they'll never have to use it. I know quite a few people who are like that. Same with "Harbor Freight" tools. You do not see them in too many mechanics tool boxes. Just as you do not see too many, if any law enforcement or military agencies with Taurus products on their side. As a matter of fact I don't even think that they were ever taken into consideration. You'd think they would have been if they were such a bargain. Especially when federal, state and local governments are under budgetary constraints.

As one who works on my own guns I also want to be able to get my own parts should anything fail. Instead of having to send it back to the factory and deal with all that bullshit. What good is a lifetime warranty if the gun is constantly going back for repairs? The shipping costs alone would add up to more than what the gun is worth. As evidenced by some of the comments here.

I don't know maybe I'm foolish but when choosing a firearm I'd rather buy one that the professionals choose. One that those who are more than likely to be in a position to ever use one then I would ever be. One that they have confidence in and would stake their lives on.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

I appreciate your thought but the last paragraph explains precisely why I decided to take a chance on purchasing the Taurus PT-111G2. Here's your last paragraph...

(I don't know maybe I'm foolish but when choosing a firearm I'd rather buy one that the professionals choose. One that those who are more than likely to be in a position to ever use one then I would ever be. One that they have confidence in and would stake their lives on.)

That paragraph does a great job of explaining how I decided to buy the Taurus. First off although we all think we know firearms for the most part most people really only know if what they own has worked and base our narrow opinions on that. When a new model comes out we depend on experts in the magazines or a site like You Tube that has some of what I consider very good gun experts that will put a new model through its paces. I trust the opinions of You Tube gun guru's like Hickock 45, Mrgunsngear, Jeff Quinn from Gunblast.com all say the Taurus G2 is a great handgun value for the money. Now these are guys who have tested hundreds of handguns, rifles & shotguns, there opinion is based on being able to compare brand A against most of the other current brands avail. and giving positive or negative feedback on why they like a brand they don't play favorites. I bought the Taurus originally as a truck gun because of the price. But the more I shot and used it the more I came to realize there's no reason it couldn't be an EDC CC gun. Yes there are better guns that can be bought, but you'll spend twice the price of the Taurus and in many cases that Taurus will best them.

So you shoot what you like and I'll shoot what works best for me and my budget... 
How about that?


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I've sent three guns back for repair to Ruger, S&W, and CZ. The longest one was gone was for 15 days (CZ). All were fixed and have been perfect, since. S&W had my Walther P-22 back in 8 days. Kahr told me how to fix my K-9 by phone and confirming email.


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

I sent 1 Taurus back took 3 months for a safety trigger,and the gun was only 2 months old, so I do understand why a value pistol should not be used for a cc, but if you fell that's what your life's worth then that's your decision.


----------



## Livingthedream (Feb 27, 2016)

Bisley said:


> I've sent three guns back for repair to Ruger, S&W, and CZ. The longest one was gone was for 15 days (CZ). All were fixed and have been perfect, since. S&W had my Walther P-22 back in 8 days. Kahr told me how to fix my K-9 by phone and confirming email.


I have sent in one s&w 6906 in for repair they refinished the frame for me did not even ask for that and had it back in 10 days.
Recently sent in a M&P 45acp for bent trigger bar was replaced and took 7 days. Sent in a Remington 597 for inaccuracy , was bad barrel. Replaced barrel had back in 10 days.Sent in a century arms opap ak for slanted front sight had it back in 14 days. That is what I call excellent service. Did not pay a penny for shipping for all 3.Taurus broken trigger safety blade 12 weeks.


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

Here's a video to watch gotta love them Taurus's https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/video-accidental-shooting-taurus-lawsuit/


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

Hey guys instead of whining maybe you should explain why you bought a Taurus? After all if your so dead set against Taurus why did you decide to get one? Secondly how do you explain all the positive reviews by both gun magazines and those on You Tube? Any gun can fail and every gun manufacturer has had guns that should have never been introduced. As far as C.S. check out Remington, Browning and every other gun manufacturer they have kept guns for many weeks as well. Hell it happened to me with a Browning and I'll be the 1st to say waiting sucks... But when the parts come in guess what? They return your gun... I'm guessing they came up a better part to replace the one that was breaking and they had no choice. After all do you want them to send it back with parts they know have a problem with just so you can break it again? Okay so take a pill and relax, sorry you had a problem. I've had zero issues as have thousands of others so cry me a river... And again just why did you by a G2, after all you guys say nothing cheap is worth having... So whats your reason for buying A cheap pistol like the G2?


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

Ok same reason you did look & found good reviews found cheap price so I bought one, it broke very quickly, so I looked again found a ton of bad reviews on youtube and all over the internet, even there own forum, customer service is the worst I ever had to deal with. Comparing the PT to my other fire arms and I could understand why they compare it to a harbor frieght gun it's cheap and cheaply made. So there's my answer.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Cannon said:


> Hey guys instead of whining maybe you should explain why you bought a Taurus?...


I'm not a Taurus owner, but I believe that I have an answer to that question.
Taurus pistols are not only inexpensive, but also they are innovative.
Taurus has designed guns which appear to either fill a need better than others, or even which have created, and filled, a brand new need.

It is the tragedy of Taurus's poor quality control that these interesting, innovative products are very poor choices for any practical use.

Oh, yeah...BTW...I suggest that the "Harbor Freight" of guns is not Taurus, but rather Hi-Point.
While perhaps 50% of Taurus's guns seem to have problems, all of both Harbor Freight's and Hi-Point's products function pretty well from the start, and have only occasional hard-use and longevity problems.
Although I don't own any Hi-Point guns, I have corresponded with people who do. And I do have a Harbor Freight air compressor, and one of their socket-wrench sets, both of which do everything that they're supposed to do without fail...so far.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Cannon said:


> I appreciate your thought but the last paragraph explains precisely why I decided to take a chance on purchasing the Taurus PT-111G2. Here's your last paragraph...
> 
> (I don't know maybe I'm foolish but when choosing a firearm I'd rather buy one that the professionals choose. One that those who are more than likely to be in a position to ever use one then I would ever be. One that they have confidence in and would stake their lives on.)
> 
> ...


You're happy with your purchase and wish to tell others of what a great bargain you've got. That's fine. I'll stand by my statement and would rather choose the types of firearms that professionals have chosen to carry out their daily duties. How that statement led you to buy a Taurus is beyond me? I know of no military or law enforcement agencies that have chosen Taurus as their official sidearm. Maybe Brazil? But not any here in the United States at least none that I know of. Most of them use Glocks.

As far as on-line gun reviews and those that are found in publications. While entertaining, I don't put too much faith and trust in them. I've yet to read a bad review of any commercially produced firearm even in "The American Rifleman". A lot of them get paid by a manufacturer to post their opinions of their products. Many times the manufacturer will make damn sure that the guns that are provided to them have been thoroughly gone over before submitting them for a review. This is true for just about any product. Guns that are used here by the military and police have undergone rigorous testing before their personnel are issued them. I put more of my faith and judgement in them than in any of the so-called gun guru's. Whether they give a good or bad review. Many are subject to personal preferences. Kind of like a Ford/Chevy kind of rivalry.

No, I'm not telling you what to buy. That's your business and you're free to buy whatever you choose. As of now it's still a free country, for how long is another subject for another time. I'm just stating my opinions as to why I would never buy Taurus products.
How about that?


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

desertman said:


> ...I know of no military or law enforcement agencies that have chosen Taurus as their official sidearm. Maybe Brazil?...


Brazilian law-enforcement agencies and its military do seem to use Taurus guns. But it was at least one Brazilian law-enforcement agency that turned-in all of its Taurus pistols because of the shake-and-fire safety problems that they were experiencing.
I believe that Brazil's military uses Taurus's Beretta clone, which does seem to have a pretty decent reputation.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

joepolo, I probably looked at the same reviews you did, only thing is I didn't find a ton of bad reviews when I did a google search or on You Tube. Yes there are a few for light primer strikes. That's usually caused by packing grease in the firing pin channel its a reason I always field strip every new gun to get the cosmoline removed from those areas. And there were some that had a problem with the trigger saftey but in the same search there are a ton of good reviews all praising the fact that Taurus got this one right! But hey any of you go to You Tube and in the search bar type in (Taurus PT-111 G2 issues) and there are very few bad reviews... PERIOD. But their are hundreds of reviews that are amazed Taurus was able to make such a good pistol at such a low price.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I'm not a Taurus owner, but I believe that I have an answer to that question.
> Taurus pistols are not only inexpensive, but also they are innovative.
> Taurus has designed guns which appear to either fill a need better than others, or even which have created, and filled, a brand new need.
> 
> ...


That's it!
Yeah, some of Harbor Freight tools are okay as long as they are not used frequently or for small jobs. You said it: "So far". Some can be downright dangerous depending on the product. Especially lifting equipment. You know you've had a bad day when a vehicle or engine lands on top of you! Just having a socket break as you're torquing down engine or suspension components and smashing your fingers is no fun. I've been doing mechanical work practically all my life, as with Taurus, I stay away from them. I hate having tools break in the middle of a project or worse yet irreparably damaging something that is hard to replace.


----------



## joepolo (Mar 28, 2016)

And how old are those reviews, check the dates. We're never going to agree cause I think the gun is junk and you think it's great, so you got a good one that's great for you . You'll never see me recommending this gun to anyone cause I don't trust them, and the last thing I want is a friend not being able to defend himself because of something I told him was good, With that said again these are our own opinions, so you keep your's and I'll keep mine, I know what I have and I'll keep carrying my XD.


----------



## Cannon (May 1, 2016)

joepolo, I agree I'm entitled to my opinion and you to yours. You think the PT 111G2 is trouble, I know from my experience its been a great value for the money spent.


----------



## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

joepolo said:


> And how old are those reviews, check the dates. We're never going to agree cause I think the gun is junk and you think it's great, so you got a good one that's great for you . You'll never see me recommending this gun to anyone cause I don't trust them, and the last thing I want is a friend not being able to defend himself because of something I told him was good, With that said again these are our own opinions, so you keep your's and I'll keep mine, I know what I have and I'll keep carrying my XD.


 + 1 million!!!!!!!!


----------

