# DevilsJohnson.....



## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

While waiting on the Springfield that may never come, I have been looking quite a bit at Para's site and notice than many of their are double stacked. I love the feel, function, and especially the LOOK of the 1911 style. I've never looked at PO before, and since they are rare in stores now...

-How is the hi cap of many of their pistols achieved? If its simply a double stack mag, how does it feel in the hand, does the width of the handle vary much from the Springers and Kimbers I've been looking at?

How are their triggers?

BTW, I'm looking at strictly 45 ACP 5" models. (but damn, that Warthog looks sweet for carry!)



You mentioned in a post that a few more and you'd be happy.... same with me, except every time I buy one, i think of 2 more that I want


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

THey use a double stack mag like most other gun makers do. It caused a wider grip on the higher capacity models but they are not so much larger that they are hard to handle. I have a P16 that has 15 round mags. It's a .40 cal. but most of the LDA pistols I've shot like the Tac-Four use a double stack mag and are 45 ACP. Those LDA models are a blast to shoot. The Warthog is a pretty nice weapon. If the wider grip does not sound good to you check out the Companion. They make a Blackwatch that is one of the most sexy compact pistols I have ever held.

The SA model triggers are anywhere from 5# in the GI Expert to a 3.5 that my LTC was when I got it new. The LDA triggers are just amazing. The pull is much lighter than you would expect and the travel is less that any other DA pistol I have ever fired. The thing about the LDA models I can't figure out is how they make the recoil so light. The Blackwatch Companion I got to shoot had less recoil than my 5" 1911's. And it's a 3" bbl!

Many of the Para pistols also have a ramped barrel. This makes feeding any ammo no problem. I have yet to see any Para with a ramped bbl ever have a FTF problem. Of course getting an aftermarket barrel would be quite a problem I guess bu No one I have ever known has changes one. So I guess that point is moot.

The thing that got me looking to Para was when trolling round gun auction sites you hardly ever see any used pistols. Plenty of new ones but not many used at all. This leads me to believe that people get them and want to keep them. I'm a HUGE Springfield fan and always will be but I see many more of those used in shops and on the auction sites that I have ever seen Para's

The double stack models are wider than a standard 1911 but they are not a problem to hold on to. I put a set Pierce grips on my P16 (It had Houge Wrap around when I got it). The Pierce set is also a wrap around but they are a little thinner. More like the original ones. 

If you get a chance check out some of the high-Cap models. I don't think you will be disappointed. AS to the single stacks they are as thin or thinner in some cases then some other 1911's I've had.

I hope I wasn't too long winded and answered your questions. Anything I misssed or didn't say right let me know :smt1099


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

No, long-winded is good! My first guns and nearly every gun I have shot has been double stack, I was just wondering if they were somehow thinly wrapped by the frame and nearly as thin as a double stack 1911.

I got my attention switched over to 1911's after shooting one. My first impression of them was that they were very pretty, but a less less well rounded and practical design as the polymer double actions I had been used to. All it took was to hold one, then shoot it, then hold it..... then be asked for it back. I was bitten by the bug.

The only drawback to the 1911 is the capacity limitations, (and yes I know if you can't hit it in 8 or 9 with 45 rounds of stopping power, then you have a problem) but I like what seems to be Para's approach to creating the best all around combat weapon. I really gotta take a look at some of their double stacks.


So let me get this straight....

-I really like 1911 triggers, how does the LDA trigger differ in feel, being after all, that it is a DA trigger?

-what benefit is there really to the action being a DA on a 1911? with the standard SA If you're cocked and locked, then its ready to go?! Does the DA on those Para's work like any othe DA/SA gun?

Be as long-winded as you want. Fill me in!!


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

...just so ya know, I'm looking at the S14-45 Limited and the PXT-P14 Gun Rights, I am very drawn to the sheer mechanical look of the 1911, with its external safeties and beautiful beavertail, but the Tac Four is a very clean and sexy look, too!


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Man I had my hands on a Tac Four which was a personal gun unshot the seller was selling at the last gun show. If I had the budget to jump off into the tall 1911 grass and run with the big dogs, that little bad boy would have been mine. That thing is sweet!! The guy wanted 9 bills for it brand new just purchased and never deployed/shot.

I like the hi-cap LDA commander length concept. That gun would make an awesome carry piece. Yeah though it's a DA pistol, the trigger is a thing of beauty which I can only equate a very good Sig DAO to. I thought the grip size in the double-stack was fine, but that's all very personal. If you can wrap your mits around one, it's a great option.. but I wouldn't turn down a good para single stack any day of the week either.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

WEll, if a true 1911 is what you're looking for then the doublestack Para might not be the idea. But if you like the double stack pistols and do like a 1911 then a Para is the way. They are excellent pistols.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

well, like I said the only thing left to be desired with a 1911 is a higher capacity. I like Para's approach to the 1911, by keeping the look and beauty the same with many of their models. Slimmer is always better for me(one of the best feeling guns in my hand is my Kahr), but I love the idea of a high cap 1911 so long as it does not take away from the very natural feel that these guns have. Now I just need to hold one in my hand to see how the feel is. Good luck with that, I guess!


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Just so you understand, the LDA's doesn't have the single action pull of a standard 1911. So if you want that type of trigger pull nix the LDA. I have an LTC with an alloy frame and love it.
This little beauty has been customized quite a bit by me but it is still a good representation of a PARA LTC.








I've shot the double stack version and the grip is a good bit fatter. It is wider at the back and tapers a bit to the front. I wear XL gloves and it was comfortable to shoot but someone with smaller hands might not like it. I'm a Commander sized 1911 fan. It is a good balance between shootability and compact size. It is my Carry weapon. If I were to go out and buy another 1911 right now it would be the stainless steel version of this same pistol.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Here's a side by side of my LTC and my P16. Now the 16 is a .40 and the LTC a 45 but it will give you a pretty good idea what's what. Both these are SA pistols.










I had to add this just because I love posting gun pics..heh










This is two reasons to have a Para..heh. I love those wild cocobolo grips on the LTC. I';d like ot find some wood for the 16 but it's next to impossible. I'm thinking about making them myself. I've made Sig Sauer grips..Anything has to be easier than that!


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

gmaske said:


> Just so you understand, the LDA's doesn't have the single action pull of a standard 1911. So if you want that type of trigger pull nix the LDA. I have an LTC with an alloy frame and love it.
> This little beauty has been customized quite a bit by me but it is still a good representation of a PARA LTC.
> 
> 
> ...


I thought you had ordered grips for that one. I know some sellers that have some amazing grips if you haven't yet. I have quite a few here but I'm not sure I could part with them.heh I guess I just need another 15 1911's to put them on..:smt023


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

DevilsJohnson said:


> I thought you had ordered grips for that one. I know some sellers that have some amazing grips if you haven't yet. I have quite a few here but I'm not sure I could part with them.heh I guess I just need another 15 1911's to put them on..:smt023


All right, all right......I'll get the camera out tonight and post a picture.
I think you're gonna like em!


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

You lazy Americans..wait..I'm a lazy American...Carry on


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

See "Got Grip" thread.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

I think for now, with it being my first 1911, I'll stick with a SA model. I went to the local shop after work, and their range had a couple Para's including a tac four(I see what you guys mean about the DA trigger, its nice!). I don't have small hands, but it doesn't sound like they're as large as yours Johnson. The double stack didn't feel too big to handle at all, but definitely not as comfortable as a single stack does.

So, these are my options as they stand:

-Go with a Kimber Custom II Eclipse, or a very nice Dan wesson(not sure of the model, as I can't find it on their site, but its I believe a Valor with a matte black slide and dark matte grey frame), and decide on a Para when they become easier to come by, OR


-Order a Para double stack SA (one of the 2 that I pictured above), and wait the 1-2 months as Para told me via telephone, rather than risk a hi cap ban and not be able to get a double stack.


What do ya think??


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm not a Kimber guy but they make good guns no question. I just don't feel the love when I'm shooting one. You have some nice choices though it sounds to me.

STI makes a fantastic pistol if you can find one too.

I love my Para P16. It's just shoots. Mine is a no frills gun muck like any old 1911 but it is a double stack pistol. It's no work at all to be dead on target. Being a 1911 guy SA triggers are always fine be me. I have some SA/DA weapons, a couple Sig Sauers and a Browning Pro-40 that I like shooting a lot. But I'm a 1911 guy to the bone. I can't have enough 1911's.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

I think I'm gonna hit the range right after work tomorrow and try those double stack para's. If I like 'em, I'm kinda leaning toward the PXTP14 'gun rights.' its got alot of stainless:mrgreen:, and a very clean look without too many frills. 

But as far as the other choices... what do ya think of the Dan Wesson? I wish I could find a pic of it on the net,but its a very sweet looking gun, and very simple, but for the money a good platform, and maybe some customizing down the road???


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

The Dan Wesson pistols I've seen have all been good ones no question. WE got a few people here that have them. I've yet to hear anything bad about them. I've not owned one but have shot a few. They sure are built right. I say you miss with one you are not doing your part. STI makes a real good one and their in a similar price range. A Dan in the4 hand is worth two in a bush though. :smt082


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

**Deleted - Double post**


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, I got down to the range after work and shot 3 para 45's- 2double stack and one single stack as well as a LDA. The LDA was a nice DA pull, but I knew going into it that I wanted a single action 1911. The double stacks just proved to be too wide for my hand. I feel far more accurate shooting a single stack. The idea of the gun is great, but primarily as a range queen, I'm ginna stick with a Springfield, Dan Wesson, or Kimber

Here is the Springer(my first choice) and the Kimber I'm considering. I can't find a pic online of that Dan Wesson, but its equally as nice.
I should say that they have changed the springfield a little, the raised part of the slide serations are exposed stainless, beter accenting them, as in the second springfield below it. The rest of the gun is the same, no mag well or ambi safety and combat sight rather than target. different grips, too
.
























I sure love that 2-tone look!!
I believe if I got the Dan Wesson, which has a black slide, I would send it away to have the sides exposed as well.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Anyway you go it's going to be a good weapon with the choices you are looking at. I understand the double stack aversion. They are not for everyone. My LTC is still my favorite daily driver. I have two Springers a 9mm and a 45 and both are just awesome. Never mess up and are tack drivers. The Kimbers are some good pistols I really have no idea why I don't feel the love with them but I just don't. They have some of the nicest finishes though. I like those polished flats with the dark in the serrate too. I was thinking about trying to do it to my 9mm Springfield but don't know what rout to take on that. I have way too many things I want to do with some of my pistols. I need to itemize and just get to doing it. :smt082

Keep checking them out, you'll find the one you know you want. I swear they talk to you when you find the right one. Fir me it's like pulling the sword from the stone. Like sometimes the weapon picks me. Whatever it is I've compiled a pretty interesting collection of pistols and rifles with no end in site. Guns have a way getting under your skin. Can't have just one.:smt082


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

What exactly is a "ramped barrel" on a Para? how does it differ from a traditional 1911.

DevilsJohnson, is your LTC aluminum or steel?


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

If you open the slide and look down into the weapon you will see the feed ramp on many Para pistols is part of the barrel. With most all other 1911's the feed ramp is part of the frame. While both will work the 1911 was originally designed to use a 240 gr. hard ball ammo. that is a lot easier to feed. When we try using all the different types of bullets we have these days some 1911's have troubles wit some ammo or simply just feed some better than others.

The ramped barrel moves the feed ramp a little and also with it all on the barrel there's one less spot for the round to get stuck between the barrel and the frame.

If you look at many modern firearms like Sig Sauer, Glock and the like you will see that many of these have the feed ramp as part of the barrel. The "ramped barrels help with the overall reliability of the weapon. Especially with hollow point ammo that does not have that nice hard round nose to help it along it's way to the chamber.

Para uses it to help with feeding. I'm sue especially with double stack mags this would be an asset being the rounds are coming from two different angles.

It seems most the para pistols use the ramped barrel The GI Expert they have out now does not (at least according to the exploded diagram I had seen) but it's built more like a Mil-Spec 1911.

Not I have a few other 1911's that are set up without the ramped barrel and they feed excellent. I'm by no means saying it has to have it to function reliably. My personal history has shown that Para pistols will eat anything put in them and I would be inclined to believe that barrel has some to do with that.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

I did not know this. Learn something every day.. Very cool!

I can certainly see the advantage.. My P226 has the old-style Sig ramp shape on the barrell (old CPO non-rail)... I notice it feeds fine, but makes magazine feed-lip geometry more crucial. With one not-so well shaped old german mag I picked up, leading edge of hollow points will snag on the bottom of the barrel. Easily fixed with a good mag though, or down the road when I swap to a new-style Sig barrel.

I wonder if this ramped barrel design is fairly common in better new-build 1911's or if this is a predominant Para-Ord design? I'm guessing the better models of a lot of brands do this now in their 1911s as a "good" improvement to John Browning's original design that might not be considered blasphemy by the 1911 purists.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

Okay, so I didn't care much for the double stack .45 Para 1911. It held nice in my hand, but when fired, seemed to walk around a little too much for my not so large grip. 

I was at the gun store today and saw a barely used Tac 5 (double stack 9 mm LDA) for $550. The only thing that got me about the .45 was the kick was a little too unmanageable. I'm really tempted to pick that 9mm up as I have a XD 40 and was thinking about a XDM-9 to fill my empty hi-cap 9mm slot. The Para is a 18+1. 

Does that sound like a good price? I'm thinking that the 9mm recoil will be far more manageable,and the store employee who showed me this gun had also fired one and said he was very impressed at how dead on it was. Too bad I can't find one to shoot, but what do ya think??


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

The 9mm wont have the same muzzle flip as the 45. Also the rounds being smaller will make the double stack not as wide and easier to manage. And everyone needs at least one 9mm:smt023


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

babs said:


> I did not know this. Learn something every day.. Very cool!
> 
> I can certainly see the advantage.. My P226 has the old-style Sig ramp shape on the barrell (old CPO non-rail)... I notice it feeds fine, but makes magazine feed-lip geometry more crucial. With one not-so well shaped old german mag I picked up, leading edge of hollow points will snag on the bottom of the barrel. Easily fixed with a good mag though, or down the road when I swap to a new-style Sig barrel.
> 
> I wonder if this ramped barrel design is fairly common in better new-build 1911's or if this is a predominant Para-Ord design? I'm guessing the better models of a lot of brands do this now in their 1911s as a "good" improvement to John Browning's original design that might not be considered blasphemy by the 1911 purists.


There are some higher end 1911's From a few gun makers with a ramped barrel.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

Actually, the 9, 40 and 45 double stack Para's are all the same width. The mags on this 9mm I was looking at are the same profile as the 45's but with channels stamped in them along the sides to make it in internally narrower. My issue with the LDA triugger is not its feel, Its very light and smooth. I diidn't care much for the reset. It had no definite point where it felt like it reset, so several times when shooting it, I returned the trigger back thinking it had reset, and got nothing on the next round. Of course, this was right after shooting a couple SA 1911's and I'm wondering if I would get used to the LDA system and be fine with it. They don't offer the Tac 5 anymore(wonder why?), so I couldn't look up a new price. But I was wondering if this gun at $550 is pretty good. My thought is that, being used, I could always resell and get nearly the same back?


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

The Tac-5 was 550.00 right? There's one on gunbroker with a 1000.00 tag on it. Says it had 36 rounds through it.

Para makes a good pistol. But if the double stack is not totally comfortable with you I would not get it. The idea of getting used to it is not always the best rout to take. I've seen people do that in hopes that they would shoot it better later and they end up with the little bug in their ear that it's too this - too that and they never shoot it as well as they might another model. Your best bet is to get a pistol that when you have it in your hand it feels like it's was supposed to be there all along. Getting a pistol for an investment is like any other investment. You have no idea if it will raise in value or how much. A Para should hold it's value or go up some over time being it's a well made weapon but in the world of gun collecting some models will always be the got to haves. Smiths, Colts are the must have brands. Para while a great weapon is one of the better kept secrets out there. He shop I bought my P-16 in the guy told me that it had been there a while because no one knew a thing about Para Ordinance. It was good for me because I got it at a great deal. But I knew what the weapon was. Anything for sale is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. That's what makes gun collecting for later sale is a big risk in many cases.
The big run on "black rifles" has driven the price sky high. What you think will happen id Nobama does not try for a new ban? Those rifles that people are buying for a few hundred over list will not bring what they paid for them. For the guy with a closet full of them that can be a lot of lost money.

So find the model that fits best. You have fired a few calibers and tried SA and DA. Now it's all a matter of what you tried you liked best. If it was me I'd go with a modes that was not as wide as you are saying they did fit you better. And stick with a SA being the opinion you had about the LDA reset. I think in the long run that will be what makes you the happiest.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

Agreed. I just switched my deposit money from the back-ordered Loaded Springer over to the Dan Wesson that i'd been eyeing the last couple weeks......... I did this while in the shop picking up a AR lower:mrgreen:


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Pretty lucky to get an R lower anymore. Even the last gun show I went to didn't have but a few. I had bought a Double star AR a while back wanting to get some stuff for it later. Sadly the later is not and stuff is a lot more expensive and harder to find right now. It's fine as it is but I was thinking about a flattop upper and maybe a longer bbl but I think I'm going to wait till I luck into the stuff later. I seem to find things I want more when IO stop looking so hard..heh.,


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

Yeah that always happens, you'll search like mad and go crazy, but if you let things slow down a little, you'll just stumble upon it! I couldn't find any either except my usual spot, and they said they ordered a TON and got a huge shipment in not too long ago. They've been selling 4 or 5 a day. I'm new to the AR market, so I'm not used to what they go for, but the had about 5 left, all Rock River's selling the single stage for $305 and the 2 stage for $409. Does that sound like a decent price now?


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

That's not a bad price. I had just today sen a double star lower on gunbroker going at 225.00. And a Rock River is a lot more sought after. But in all fairness I don't think the name Double Star is about there all that much. They are made here in Ky (Winchester if I remember right). Real nice rifles though. I love mine.I'll put a link in this post if you would like to look at their stuff. I think they have their parts under the Rifle Options & Upgrades section. Check out their custom section. Some pretty nice little cap guns they got in there :smt1099

You have any idea what you are going to put around that lower?


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

yeah, post that link. As far as what I'm gona put on top... not sure what caliber I'm gonna go with yet. Like I said, very new to the AR market, and I atleast wanted to get myself "grandfathered in" with a lower, then do some readin, talkin, and research to figure out what upper route to go. 

I almost picked up a complete gun, but I figured it would be better to pick up that lower that could be used with any setup I choose(besides, there's more excitement this way.) The counter guy was trying to talk me into a 5.?? round that feeds out of a 50 round mag atop the upper assembly and ejects straight down out of the mag receiver. Sounds like hell on wheels to me! But, I want to do my research. Primarily I want a fairly tactical AR, not really concerned too much with extremely long range, just want a "shit hits the fan" gun.

As you can tell, I'm very green when it comes to rifles. Open to all suggestions, thanks for all the input DJ What do ya think?


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Link to Double Star:smt023

Sorry, I meant to put that in the earlier post Sorry about that.


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## oldscot3 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a hi-cap, all steel, single action LTC. I've never seen it in Para's catalog. Needless to say it's butt heavy when loaded full, but it shoots well and I like it in spite of its unusual color.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Para makes both a steel and alloy LTC. I have not seen one in OD green before but that could have easily been added later. Yours Looks real good.:smt023

I really like my LTC. It out shot my Colt Combat Commander to the point I stopped using it and sold it off to get an AR a while back..LOL..When you could get an AR without selling your house or a child.

I want to put a new finish on mine but I've not been in a big hurry and I have no isea what color(s) just yet.


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## oldscot3 (Jan 4, 2008)

The green finish came from Para. I have a friend with an identical pistol. I think they may have been in a special run for a large wholesaler.

You don't find this combination of features, regardless of color, in Para's catalog. Commander size, single action, all steel, hi-cap. You can get the commander size in a hi-cap, but it's a LDA (Tac Four). You can get the the commander size in a single action, but it's a single stack (1911 LTC). 

I don't know why Para doesn't offer my version as a standard catalog model, seems like there would be a market for it. I'm guessing when the last ban sunseted and hi caps became easily available, the fickle buying public decided they didn't want them anymore and trended toward the single stacks. Perhaps that trend will reverse again if the government starts restricting magazine capacity again.

Anyway, I have mine, with extra mags, and am happy with it. It's not just a range toy, I carry it frequently, especiall open, at the ranch. It shares concealed carry duty with a Kahr, the deciding factor being my choice of clothing.


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## YFZsandrider (Feb 28, 2009)

what model Kahr? I carry a P9


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## oldscot3 (Jan 4, 2008)

K 40 with night sights, black stainless model.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Looks just like mine except it has black fire controls with the OD green rather then the black wit stainless. Is it a double stack? It's hard to tell from the pic. It is a good look though. I hadn't seen them like that new. I am kind of surprised that they don't make more of them. I'd say they would sell pretty good. LOL! I'd get one,.


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## oldscot3 (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes, hi-cap. It takes the same 14 round mags as the full size P-14.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

oldscot3 said:


> Yes, hi-cap. It takes the same 14 round mags as the full size P-14.


Nice :smt023


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