# help with shooting



## nhbuck1 (Feb 14, 2016)

I just bought a m and p shield and im shooting like 8 or 9 inches low and 4 inches left, i know its me and not the gun, what am i doing wrong? i have shot guns and bows my whole life im 30 now but i dont have much experience with handguns as its an art of it own, any help would be great thanks guys
kyle


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

Low is from anticipating recoil. Left, tighter grip on left hand ( assuming your right handed ) more trigger finger. Those are things that helped me. Its all grip and trigger control. Small light guns like a shield are difficult to shoot accurately. If possible shoot the gun out of a rest and check sites. This will eliminate that cause of error then you know its all you. The trick is to squeeze the trigger without moving the gun, right when the trigger breaks is the most critical time to achieve that. Dry firing can help as well, dry fire (safely) watching front site make sure it doesn't wiggle the least little bit. Get to the range and practice slow fire make each shot count.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

You are "milking" the pistol's grip.
As you squeeze the trigger, you are also squeezing your hand around the gun's grip, and that rotates the pistol's muzzle down and to one side.
Right-handers rotate the gun down and left.

You need to learn to "isolate" your trigger finger.
That is, you need to learn to move only your trigger finger, without moving anything else.
It ain't easy. It takes practice.

Do your practice as dry-fire, looking at a blank wall (with no aiming point).
*Make absolutely sure that there is no ammunition in the gun.* Remove its magazine, and clear its chamber. Insert an inert snap-cap into the chamber, to protect the gun's firing pin while you practice.

Grip the pistol as tightly as you can ("death grip"), and maintain that very tight grip.
Bring the pistol's sights up to eye level, and concentrate on _pressing_ (not "pulling") its trigger straight to the rear _without changing the tightness of your grip on the gun._
If the sights move or change alignment during the trigger press, you're not gripping hard enough. You're still "milking" the grip.


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## nhbuck1 (Feb 14, 2016)

so your saying grip it harder and try more finger on the trigger? i thought i was gripping the gun pretty hard


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

nhbuck1 said:


> so your saying grip it harder and try more finger on the trigger? i thought i was gripping the gun pretty hard


Not "more finger on the trigger," necessarily.
Depending upon the length of your finger and the trigger's pull-weight, you might need more finger, or even less.
But in any case, you want to press that trigger straight to the rear, with _absolutely no side pressure_.

You may indeed be gripping "pretty hard," but you are not gripping it with _the same pressure_, all the way through the trigger stroke.
You may not actually have to grip harder, but only with enough _consistent_ pressure so that the gun doesn't move even the slightest little bit in your hand.
As it is now, the gun's grip is rotating to your left, and its muzzle is rotating downward, _because your grip is changing_ along with the movement of your trigger finger.


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## nhbuck1 (Feb 14, 2016)

so basically flinching anticipating the recoil? gotta learn to keep gun steady through the whole shot?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes... your grip should be like a vise... holding the gun, keeping your sight alignment & sight picture throughout the trigger "press". Hold the gun firm enough to still be able to independently move your trigger finger without disturbing your SA & SP. 

Trigger press should be straight back to the rear, with no yanking or jerking... and keep trigger depressed after the shot breaks. This is called follow-through... and is very important to shooting accurately.

Make sure your bringing the sights up to your eyes and not lowering your head looking down at the sights... this will cause a 2-4" drop in your shot group and is common among newer shooters.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Move 8-9" closer to the target and 4" to the right. :smt033

Or......you could try what others have suggested. :watching:

Another suggestion is practice. Lots & lots of it. Sooner or later, you'll start doing what you need to be doing.


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## Kennydale (Jun 10, 2013)

Get some training from a pro who can watch you and advise you. Its well worth the money!!!!


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Right hand pistol correction chart
www.gunlink.info/targets/PistolChartR1S.pdf

Left hand pistol correction chart
www.gunlink.info/targets/PistolChartL1S.pdf


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

Hey don't feel "Lone Ranger". I been shooting revolvers mostly and I had to learn how to shoot my glock 17 & 19 accurately. The chart cait43 posted helps & fixes issues, too!


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## Argon18smith (Nov 4, 2016)

I love the chart. I have done them all. Practice takes you closer to perfect. What happens when you actually hit the centre of the target?


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## nhbuck1 (Feb 14, 2016)

so should i squeeze the trigger slowly like i would with a rifle? i hear the saying press the trigger can someone explain that would that be slapping the trigger? any places with 9mm bulk ammo cheap for practice? thanks for all the help guys much appreciated


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Argon18smith said:


> What happens when you actually hit the centre of the target?


Usually you will win a Cuban cigar.....


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

nhbuck1 said:


> so should i squeeze the trigger slowly like i would with a rifle? i hear the saying press the trigger can someone explain that would that be slapping the trigger? any places with 9mm bulk ammo cheap for practice? thanks for all the help guys much appreciated


*Do not "squeeze."* Press straight back. It's important.
But yes, start off pressing _slowly_, while holding the gun tightly and steadily. *Don't "slap."*
Don't worry that the gun is wiggling around. It's wiggling much less than you think it is.

Another good thing to try: Move closer to the target, or move the target closer to you.
Start at, maybe, three yards. When you're hitting where you're aiming, in small, tight groups, move back to five or six yards. When you're good at that, move back to nine yards. And so on.

Don't know nuthin' 'bout no 9mm ammunition. I shoot .45 and .380, so I'll be no help.


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## nhbuck1 (Feb 14, 2016)

so its not a squeeze like a rifle trigger? i dont have to wory how hard i pressing the trigger? whats the difference?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

As Steve stated, move closer to the target. When you feel good about what you're doing, move back some. Keep doing this until you've reached a distance that you are happy with. 

Be prepared to spend some money on ammo and some time on shooting it. All the good instruction in the world doesn't mean squat unless you're actually shooting enough.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

You're getting good information. Steve knows what he's talking about. 

I hate the word "squeeze" so many use when talking about trigger control. It's just not right for most people. I was trained in the 1960s by the Bill Blankenship method which is pretty much what Steve is talking about. The way Bill explained it and the way I learned was to think of your trigger finger as a separate part of you from your hand and arm. Think of it being attached to a third arm, if you will. Pull it straight back while holding the handgun as tight as possible without cutting off blood supply which would cause shake. This hard hold is with your shooting hand, not so much with your support hand. This is hard to learn, but that's why everyone in not a world champion and Bill Blankenship was many times. It takes a lot of time and practice until it becomes muscle memory. Your life, your family's life and maybe a lot of other folks are dependent on us who have decided to carry a weapon in public.

I do a tremendous amount of dry firing, both fast and slow. I often start by not using sights at all, just staring down at the gun while concentrating on trigger control. You want to move from slow to fast to very fast and back to slow without the handgun moving side to side or up and down. There's no way to "squeeze" I know of to accomplish this skill from slow to fast and back. If you just learn to fire slow and accurately, you'll not have the muscle memory needed when an emergency happens and you need to fire fast and accurately with your adrenalin and heartbeat going crazy as well as tunnel vision setting in.

At the range, I would start with a blank sheet of paper for a target and fairly close. My initial practice would be to be fairly slow, working on keeping the weapon steady as I pressed back on the trigger, thinking about that third hand idea. During this time, I'd probably not worry about sight picture. Just keep it steady and use that blank paper. When you've started to master trigger control and begin considering sight picture, we all know sight alignment is much more important than target alignment so we focus on the front sight allowing the target and rear sight to blur a bit. 

This was how I was trained and many others as well. The problem is that some very modern tactical shooters are starting to question this for defensive use, not targets, practical or even IPSC type competition. Just self and family preservation defensive tactics. They suggest it all changes in the Red zone. People get tunnel vision and can't well focus on the front sight. Our brain focuses on the threat no matter how long and hard we train otherwise. They suggest after learning and mastering the basics of trigger control and sight alignment, to start a program of mastering fast fire while moving, focused on the target, sort of like the old point and shoot methods. This is also somewhat new to me so I can't talk much about it but it makes some sense to me. Time to start my dry fire regimen again, I suppose. 

Finally, there's distance. Most gun battles are up close and personal, but not all. Lately, active shooter scenarios are taking place in malls, parking lots, etc. Moreover, some active shooters are wearing body armor and sporting rifles. What that means to the average guy or gal with the average carry handgun is you have around a 4x6 inch target. I suggest after or while learning all the above, one should also take the time to master precision shooting of their carry gun at 4x6 inch cards at around 20 yards. A group like that with a 380 mouse gun will be very hard for most of us, but I think is something to strive for. Even for an M&P 9mm Shield, that's a tough group, but still I think important to practice. I can do it with my Shield and Walther PPQ, but am still seriously lacking with my Ruger LCPII. Just bought another 300 rounds of 380 JHP. LOL

Practice and train both dry firing, indoor and outdoor ranges. Keep plugging away at it. Also make it fun.

Craig


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## Budd (Dec 17, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Do your practice as dry-fire, looking at a blank wall (with no aiming point).
> *Make absolutely sure that there is no ammunition in the gun.* Remove its magazine, and clear its chamber. Insert an inert snap-cap into the chamber, to protect the gun's firing pin while you practice..


This is good advise, and if I may, I would add that it may be best to insert the snap-cap by using the magazine to avoid possible damage to your extractor.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

*The use of Snap Caps*



Budd said:


> This is good advise, and if I may, I would add that it may be best to insert the snap-cap by using the magazine to avoid possible damage to your extractor.


This is one thing I disagree with just about half of all shooters on. That's the use of snap caps. I don't think they make a hill of beans difference in damage to any centerfire firearm. Maybe some rimfire and certainly side-lock shotguns, but other than that, no.

Having to reload the snap cap every time you dry fire for practice would make it impossible to practice to the levels I suggest. Having to remove the magazine, insert a snap cap and reinsert the magazine then rack the slide would be tedious at best.

With a striker fired weapon and practicing fast, I just have to use a loose trigger and double up at the range. With hammer fired, I can just use it over and over for double action but ear the hammer back to practice single action. No need to rack the slide. Again, follow it up with range time.

I'll tell you, if you needed a snap cap to dry fire, you'd have a hard time abiding by both IPSC and USPSA competition rules which require dry firing at the end of every course of fire. Every major competition for every type of handgun as well as many rifle competitions; requires you to dry fire the weapon before leaving the firing line. Leaving the hammer back in your holster so you can go get a snap cap would earn you a violation.

Standard safety procedure before leaving the firing line. 

Remove the mag
Show the official an empty chamber
Dry fire the weapon pointed down range
Holster the weapon


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

All true, Craig, with the exception of an exposed-hammer single-action semi-auto. (Whew...that's a lot of hyphens!)
Dry-fire practice with a 1911, with a snap-cap, requires only thumb-cocking the hammer and re-applying the safety. With repetition, it's a less-than-a-second, two-thumb process. (Been there, done that.)
Other exposed-hammer pistols exist. They'd work the same.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I purchased a Laserlyte practice cartridge a couple of years ago. If you are not familiar with them they project a laser dot at your aiming point when you press the trigger. It gives you instant feedback with every "shot". Dry fire practice bored the hell out of me before I bought this little gem. I use small pieces of reflective tape for targets. When you score a hit it lights up like a flashbulb.

GW


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> All true, Craig, with the exception of an exposed-hammer single-action semi-auto. (Whew...that's a lot of hyphens!)
> Dry-fire practice with a 1911, with a snap-cap, requires only thumb-cocking the hammer and re-applying the safety. With repetition, it's a less-than-a-second, two-thumb process. (Been there, done that.)
> Other exposed-hammer pistols exist. They'd work the same.


I know and I agree, having owned and competed with many SA Hammer fired weapons in my life. I also agree using a Snap-Cap for dry firing on this type of weapon would not be too much of a hindrance. The point is it's just not necessary. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never actually seen or heard of a firing pin being damaged in a 1911a from dry firing, even literally thousands of times. They can break, just not from that. If there were the least possibility, I guarantee the rules for all these competitors would be hastily changed, like the IDPA, IPSC and all the rest. We constantly dry fire during competition. It's required. If you were observed poking a snap-cap into your chamber on the firing line during the safety step down or "hammer down", you'd be called out immediately by anyone watching, including the range officer. You'd certainly be told to clear the weapon again.

As I said earlier, with other types of weapons, snap-caps just add a significant and unneeded step in the practice process. The time would be much better spent actually practicing. Moreover, we'd be doing our part to end this old wives-tail and myth. Steve, we usually agree on so much and I consider you a friend on this forum, among others. We'll just have to disagree on this one. 

Don't get me wrong. I own and use snap-caps for useful purposes like functionality testing after reassembly or after cleaning a magazine, just to name a few. They are a whole lot safer on the workbench than using live ammo. I think I probably have a few dummy rounds in almost every caliber I use. I paint the bullets with hot pink acrylic to identify them. When my daughter was a teen, she thought I was swiping her nail polish one time. She was not much happier when I admitted I had swiped her art supplies instead. ;-)



goldwing said:


> I purchased a Laserlyte practice cartridge a couple of years ago. If you are not familiar with them they project a laser dot at your aiming point when you press the trigger. It gives you instant feedback with every "shot". Dry fire practice bored the hell out of me before I bought this little gem. I use small pieces of reflective tape for targets. When you score a hit it lights up like a flashbulb.
> 
> GW


LOL That might indeed add some fun to the dry fire drills. On the other hand, when practicing pure trigger control, I sometimes don't want to know where I'm aiming. I only care to observe the pistol and it's movement in my hand. Still, I do like that laser, especially to discover a flinch at the range. When that dot jerks before the bang, something needs to be worked on. Me! ;-)


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## Argon18smith (Nov 4, 2016)

Laserlyte doesn't seem to make a cartridge for 38/357 cal.


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## Budd (Dec 17, 2016)

Craigh said:


> I know and I agree, having owned and competed with many SA Hammer fired weapons in my life. I also agree using a Snap-Cap for dry firing on this type of weapon would not be too much of a hindrance. The point is it's just not necessary. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never actually seen or heard of a firing pin being damaged in a 1911a from dry firing,


I think that the firing pin positioning pin is more in danger than the firing pin itself. Perhaps this is more true with Sig P series than other guns. It is in discussions about Sigs that the I have heard the warnings. I am by no means an expert, and am not looking for an argument. Soooo as they say.... Your mileage may vary.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Budd said:


> I think that the firing pin positioning pin is more in danger than the firing pin itself. Perhaps this is more true with Sig P series than other guns. It is in discussions about Sigs that the I have heard the warnings. I am by no means an expert, and am not looking for an argument. Soooo as they say.... Your mileage may vary.


This really isn't an argument. I'd guess fully half of all "gun nutz" believe dry firing is bad for something, be it a firing pin or something. I think it's a myth from the old cap and ball days, but I don't know. I do know many folks cringe when they see someone dry firing and sometimes say something. It's sort of like the people who put UV filters on every camera lens they own, thinking it will protect it somehow. They will often come up with all kinds of third party anecdotal stories about that filter saving a friend of a friend's expensive lens. I think the dry fire concerns are the same kind of thing, whether it be a Sig or a Keltech. I've got a Sig P220 I purchased new sometime around 1976 and have dry fired it thousands of times and no issues. It works just fine.

Now let me go put my tin foil cap back on. You never know about the government or aliens reading your mind. ;-)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Craigh said:


> ...I'd guess fully half of all "gun nutz" believe dry firing is bad for something, be it a firing pin or something. I think it's a myth from the old cap and ball days, but I don't know...


Dry firing is bad for _some_ guns; most rimfires, for instance (and all percussion-cap guns).
Dry firing is bad for Jean's Kel-Tec pistol, because of the way that the firing pin is retained in the slide. You should use a magazine-full of snap-caps whenever you're dry firing a Kel-Tec.
Dry firing is bad for my Colt's Pocket Hammerless, also because of the way that the firing pin is retained. I use a magazine-full of snap-caps in it.

In a 1911, the problem isn't the firing pin. It "floats," controlled by a spring. Dry firing won't hurt it.
The problem is the 1911's hammer. It may be a little on the hard side, and could chip (or even shatter - but that's really unlikely).
I always would put a small piece of leather into the hammer slot of the slide, to cushion the hammer's drop, when I was doing _extensive_ dry-fire practice.
Heck...it couldn't hurt.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Dry firing is bad for _some_ guns; most rimfires, for instance (and all percussion-cap guns).
> Dry firing is bad for Jean's Kel-Tec pistol, because of the way that the firing pin is retained in the slide. You should use a magazine-full of snap-caps whenever you're dry firing a Kel-Tec.
> Dry firing is bad for my Colt's Pocket Hammerless, also because of the way that the firing pin is retained. I use a magazine-full of snap-caps in it.


Yep, very few modern firearms. I didn't know that about the Kel-Tec, but after my experience with them early on, I'll absolutely never get another. Two of my brothers and I purchased the P-3AT pretty much when they were released. We live less than 40 miles from Kel-Tec so thought if we had any issues, we could drop in to the factory. We all three must have purchased lemons and all three spent considerable time trying to get them fixed. Finally, one brother and I just sold ours. The third one, a doctor, went back to Kel Tec one more time. Some lady gunsmith took his gun into the back and spend almost two hours with it. She didn't replace any parts we can see, but that gun is a miracle now. It's been flawless in its performance. It's that brother's standard EDC now days. In a way, I kind of wish I'd kept mine and gone back there with him to let the lady gunsmith perform her magic. That's water over the dam now, and my pocket mouse gun is the new Ruger LCPII which I like a lot.


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