# Very HEAVY 357 bullets possible?



## magnumb (Mar 23, 2018)

This may be a very stupid question, but here goes.
I was wondering if there is a practical limit for bullet weight. I know the overall length is a constraint for many firearms, but the 357 shell case is very long. it seems a very long bullet could be cast and still have enough room for powder. Could a 357 be 200 grains, 240, more? For most handgun distances trajectory is not an issue. I'm not worried about bullet drop at 15 yards. It seems a really heavy, really soft lead bullet could pack quite a wallop. Don't know if this has ever been tried, but imagine a 250 grain travelling 700 fps. instead of 125 grain at 1400 fps. Can this be done? If you could do it, would it make any sense.?
Thanks:smt1099


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I suggest that recoil control would be a major issue.
The heavier the bullet, the more recoil you are called upon to control.

Another major issue would be chamber pressure.
The heavier bullet would move out of the chamber much more slowly at first, which would act to greatly elevate the pressure that the chamber would be called upon to contain.
When Elmer Keith was developing the loads which eventually became the .44 Magnum, he destroyed several revolver cylinders while attempting to fire maximum-weight bullets and also, separately, maximum powder charges. Keith used a device to hold his pistol, while he stood way far off, so the KABOOMs didn't injure him.

And then there is bullet length.
Your .357 Magnum's chamber length severely limits bullet weight.
For instance, IIRC, a 200 grain, 30-caliber bullet is about 1-1/4" long. (I used to shoot them out of my .30-40 Krag.) A 200 grain, 357-caliber bullet wouldn't be much shorter. (You do the math. I'm too old.)
The revolver's cylinder is maybe 2" long (?), so there wouldn't be room for both the bullet and a small charge of powder.

And, finally, there's the burning rate of the powder.
If you don't have much room for the powder, then the powder has to be more powerful than usual, so that a small amount of it can get the big bullet to move.
But "more powerful" powder is more powerful because, in a pistol, it has to burn faster, and that faster burn is what destructively elevates chamber pressure and causes those KABOOMs I mentioned earlier.

So, in answer to your question, YES there is a practical limit for bullet weight in every bullet diameter.
That limit is always smaller in pistols, and larger in rifles...sometimes.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Great answer!


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I agree with Steve completely on the testing dangers involved. Still, there is probably a heavy bullet/lighter load combination that would work, with modern powder and bullet technology. For example, a .40 S&W is an example of achieving approximately the same terminal effect as a 230 grain .45 ACP, using a 180 grain bullet. So, it isn't out of the question for a .357 magnum. In fact, a 158 grain .357 bullet achieves (or maybe even surpasses) this already. 

It is likely that what the OP suggests has already been done, and this is the best result. I don't think Elmer Keith overlooked the .357 magnum when he was working on this subject.


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

magnumb said:


> This may be a very stupid question, but here goes.
> I was wondering if there is a practical limit for bullet weight. I know the overall length is a constraint for many firearms, but the 357 shell case is very long. it seems a very long bullet could be cast and still have enough room for powder. Could a 357 be 200 grains, 240, more? For most handgun distances trajectory is not an issue. I'm not worried about bullet drop at 15 yards. It seems a really heavy, really soft lead bullet could pack quite a wallop. Don't know if this has ever been tried, but imagine a 250 grain travelling 700 fps. instead of 125 grain at 1400 fps. Can this be done? If you could do it, would it make any sense.?
> Thanks:smt1099


Yes, it can be done, but you would be regressing back to a round that did not work very well, namely the Super Police. I have a link for info if you want to read up a bit on that. The short story is, it failed to do the job.

Now compare that to a .357, 125 grain at 1,450 FPS, and the comparison is all in favor of the 125 grain. It works so well, that it is the #1 man stopper, according to reports. And the 158 grain ain't far behind it, either of those rounds will stop a man, with 1 shot.

So, the round has been perfected, no need to reinvent things. And your thinking is just how the British thought, a big slow bullet should stop a man, but it doesn't.

.38-200 | Military Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

BigHead said:


> ...Now compare that to a .357, 125 grain at 1,450 FPS, and the comparison is all in favor of the 125 grain. It works so well, that it is the #1 man stopper, according to reports. And the 158 grain ain't far behind it, either of those rounds will stop a man, with 1 shot...


Well, it depends, of course, on how carefully and accurately the bullet has been placed into the, um, target.
In truth, I do not believe in "one-shot stops." It can happen, but one mustn't either depend upon or expect it.

I tend to prefer the heaviest bullet I can find, _but_ (it's a _big_ "but"), as the British showed us, even a very heavy pistol bullet won't do useful, man-stopping damage unless it's travelling at a very useful velocity.
I know that a 230-grain, .45 ACP bullet at just under 900fps will do useful damage, so I tend to measure every other self-defense pistol load by that specific criterion.

But that's just me.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, it depends, of course, on how carefully and accurately the bullet has been placed into the, um, target.
> In truth, I do not believe in "one-shot stops." It can happen, but one mustn't either depend upon or expect it.
> 
> I tend to prefer the heaviest bullet I can find, _but_ (it's a _big_ "but"), as the British showed us, even a very heavy pistol bullet won't do useful, man-stopping damage unless it's travelling at a very useful velocity.
> ...


Me, as well. I like a fairly heavy bullet, but as Steve says, shot placement is the most important aspect. I'll add, mindset is underrated, yet so important in shot placement. One shot stops require hitting a very small area.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, it depends, of course, on how carefully and accurately the bullet has been placed into the, um, target.
> In truth, I do not believe in "one-shot stops." It can happen, but one mustn't either depend upon or expect it.
> 
> I tend to prefer the heaviest bullet I can find, _but_ (it's a _big_ "but"), as the British showed us, even a very heavy pistol bullet won't do useful, man-stopping damage unless it's travelling at a very useful velocity.
> ...


Using that criterion, 180 gr jacketed HP, driven at 1050 or so fps, should do 'useful damage' from the 357 Magnum. Lyman 50 lists 1109 from a 4" Universal Receiver, generating 39,000 C.U.P. (H-110 powder).

That's ~200 fps slower than 125gr bullets move from similar pressure, and Lyman doesn't get into terminal ballistics stuff, so how far a 150 pound BG gets knocked back when struck on the breast bone at 30 feet is left to our imaginations.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

hillman said:


> ...Lyman 50 lists 1109 from a 4" Universal Receiver, generating 39,000 C.U.P. (H-110 powder)...


Remember that Lyman's "universal receiver" does not have a cylinder-to-barrel gap, so your bullet's actual velocity may be somewhat less.
(Not that it'll make any appreciable difference, of course. I note this just "for the record.")


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, it depends, of course, on how carefully and accurately the bullet has been placed into the, um, target.
> In truth, I do not believe in "one-shot stops." It can happen, but one mustn't either depend upon or expect it.
> 
> I tend to prefer the heaviest bullet I can find, _but_ (it's a _big_ "but"), as the British showed us, even a very heavy pistol bullet won't do useful, man-stopping damage unless it's travelling at a very useful velocity.
> ...


Hollow Points, driven to high speed, is how I tend to go: in 9mm, .45 & .357 Magnum. 
An exception is the 230 grain .45 Auto, in a 1911; it has killed/stopped so many men in combat, that it is indisputably an excellent man stopper.
And, I do believe in one shot stops, I have seen one, and it was impressive. And the round was a .357 Magnum.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

BigHead said:


> ...I do believe in one shot stops, I have seen one, and it was impressive...


Please note the words that I've emphasized here, from what I'd originally written:



Steve M1911A1 said:


> ..."one-shot stops." *It can happen, but one mustn't either depend upon or expect it*...[emphasis added]


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

:horsepoo: If I could count on one shot stops every time, I would only need:










I'd love one anyway.


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

Craigh said:


> :horsepoo: If I could count on one shot stops every time, I would only need:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had one, in .44 Magnum, a Thompson Center Contender, they are excellent guns. And I will add here, if I had ever needed it for that one shot stop, it would have done it.
It had a 14 inch barrel, and was more rifle than handgun. PS: Are you saying that 1 shot stops are horse poo? That is what I gather by your smiley.
They are not.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

One shot stops are the ideal, completely possible for someone shooting at a stationary target, preferably at short range. A good shooter can do it more often than not, at 15 yards or less...on a silhouette target.

Change that situation to a gun fight, and it requires more calmness than a normal person can reasonably expect from himself, even if he is an exceptional shooter and his foe cooperates, by standing still. Try sprinting 100 yards, and see how long it takes your breathing to slow enough for you to hit a 2" target at 10 - 15 yards. Stressful situations can cause similar effects to your body.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

BigHead said:


> Are you saying that 1 shot stops are horse poo? That is what I gather by your smiley.
> They are not.


No of course not. There can always be one shot stops, but that's not the point. The point is to not count on them because they are often more luck. Stress and distance also play a roll. It takes skill to put three shots on a 4x6 post card at 50 feet, but for that to translate to a one shot stop made under stress starts to be luck. An inch to the side and it may no longer be a one stopper, so be prepared for followup shots. There's only a very small area on a human target which will drop them dead on the spot.

As far as the horse poo smiley. I apologize. I really thought it was Don Quixote, meaning it would be foolish to bet one's life on one shot stops. Not meant to be insulting.


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

Craigh said:


> No of course not. There can always be one shot stops, but that's not the point. The point is to not count on them because they are often more luck. Stress and distance also play a roll. It takes skill to put three shots on a 4x6 post card at 50 feet, but for that to translate to a one shot stop made under stress starts to be luck. An inch to the side and it may no longer be a one stopper, so be prepared for followup shots. There's only a very small area on a human target which will drop them dead on the spot.
> 
> As far as the horse poo smiley. I apologize. I really thought it was Don Quixote, meaning it would be foolish to bet one's life on one shot stops. Not meant to be insulting.


OK. My policy is--to not expect a stop with each shot, but to be prepared to shoot them, until they do stop. I can shoot a pistol pretty well, but if there is something coming at me, I will let it close the distance, or I will close it. So that, if there is some shooting to be done, I will do it up close and personal.
And, I have listened to Don Quixote on a CD book, it is hilarious. (Where is the OP? He posts a question and then vamooses?)


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

BigHead said:


> (Where is the OP? He posts a question and then vamooses?)


It happens all the time - doesn't matter. Once we start down the trail, there's no stopping us, anyway.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

Bisley said:


> It happens all the time - doesn't matter. Once we start down the trail, there's no stopping us, anyway.


LOL Yeah, we get a lot of one post wonders who hit and run. Maybe the OP will eventually reply.


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