# .380 Ammo Choice Follow Up



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Here is a pretty thorough review. Thoughts?

Ammo Quest .380 Final Wrapup: finding the BEST ammo for a .380ACP pistol - YouTube


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

My thoughts are that he refuses to test the most likely best .380 ammo available because it is+P. The Underwood +P that is loaded with the 102 grain Remington Golden Saber should pass the test. I understand that he doesn't want to shoot that ammo in his Diamond Back but I would be willing to pay for him renting a Sig P238 and test some +P. Some of the Buffalo Bore ammo should also pass the test.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I believe the Underwood, Remington and Buffalo Bore were in one of the stacks he discarded. I'm not sure how many brands he had tested, but there were several considered. But keep in mind that he did specify that this test was to find the best ammunition for the "micro-pistol", which are pistols with a 2.5" barrel. Granted the P238 has a 2.7" barrel, but that can make a difference in performance. My Glock 42 has a 3.25" barrel, which is another 3/4" of barrel. That would change the performance of the bullet drastically. 

This guy seems to test for specific guns that are not often tested in ballistic performance tests. Like in 9mm, he used the Sig P938, which comes with a 3" barrel. He specifically tests for results in shorter barrels to see which ammo works best for that platform. I do wish he would do tests with standard size barrels (i.e. 3" .380 and 4" 9mm and higher), but I do find these tests useful. In his 9mm test of Critical Duty, this round over penetrated to at least 24" with no expansion at all, which made the bullet perform much like FMJ. But in a service pistol, with at least a 4" barrel, this round performs really well. 

This guy is looking to find out which is the best round for specific size "defense" pistols. I've seen other reviews by tnoutdoor9 using a Bersa .380 which has a 3.5" barrel, and the ammunition has a completely different result altogther. For example, with the micro-pistol .380, the Hornady Critical Defense does not do so well, but with the Bersa .380 with a 3.5" barrel, it did quite well. Another inch made all the difference in the world. Using the right ammo in the right pistol can be a critical decision.


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

He has never tested + P rated .380 ammo. He mentions the Sig P238 as one of the guns he is testing for in some of his videos or in the introduction written below the video. I mentioned Sig P238 because he doesn't believe there is such a thing as +P .380 ammo and his DB .380 would probably not handle it but the Sig will and does. The Diamond Back .380 he uses has a very bad reputation but they do look like a Glock. I have talked to him many times about all this. He thinks because SAMMI doesn't list the ammo there is no such thing. SAMMI doesn't list 9mm +P+ either but LE has and still uses it. All ammo has been watered down from its original design. In 1908 the original 9mm was a 124 grain bullet rated at 1260 fps. By today's standards that would be a +P++ or something. Some people freak out over the +P ammo because they don't educate their selves on how it came about and what it is. It's a shame Shootingthebull 410 is one of those people. He does great testing and seems to be a great guy.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

New Life for the .380 ACP | Shooting Illustrated

This might be why he does not test +P loads.

"Recoil impulse in foot-pounds was calculated for each load as if fired from a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard. Interesting data, but not near as helpful as actually shooting the load in your handgun because the recoil variance is quite extreme. The Winchester SilverTip load was a joy to shoot out of the .75-pound Bodyguard, but the +P Buffalo Bore loads felt like you had a tiger by the tail.

The Federal Hydra-Shok bullet has a great reputation as a fight-stopper in every cartridge in which it is offered. This low-recoil load's performance ranks about average among .380 ACP loads.

SAAMI does not recognize +P .380 ACP loads. According to Western Powders Lab, where pressure testing is conducted for many ammunition manufacturers, most factory .380 ACP loads generate a maximum average pressure about 3,000 PSI below the SAAMI maximum. Granted, compliance with SAAMI standards is voluntary, but there are very few +P .380 ACP loads available because of the SAAMI limit. Those from Buffalo Bore were the only ones tested.

Do .380 ACP +P loads increase terminal effectiveness? Probably. In the case of the Buffalo Bore JHP loads, the +P load increased penetration by 10 percent and the crush cavity by about 3 percent. Are they safe to shoot in your handgun? Probably.

I talked with Buffalo Bore's Tim Sundles at length about the safety issue, and he said the .380 ACP case is very strong; as strong as the 9 mm case. He has run thousands of his +P loads through every type .380 ACP pistol he can find. Regardless, recoil is intensified as is wear on the handgun. If you only shoot +P loads at bad guys, accelerated handgun wear is moot unless you live in a very, very bad neighborhood.

Handloading data for the .380 ACP is held to this same SAAMI 21,500 psi maximum, and old standby pistol powders like Unique, Bullseye and Winchester 231 will work for all bullet weights. Slower-burning powders like Ramshot's True Blue work well, too. Loading the .380 ACP requires no special attention beyond maintaining overall cartridge length and a tight case mouth to prevent bullet set-back during feeding. Avoid the temptation to create your own +P loads; minuscule increases in the powder charge can spike pressures.

Picking a .380 ACP load for carry is mostly a matter of personal preference, tempered by what you expect of a defensive handgun. If you believe the trolls that might attack you will be hiding behind windows and car doors, go with a deep penetrator. If you're recoil sensitive, go with standard-pressure loads."


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

Why exactly? I don't see a reason in the article you posted other than being recoil sensitive. What did I miss here?


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

zeke4351 said:


> Why exactly? I don't see a reason in the article you posted other than being recoil sensitive. What did I miss here?


I don't know why he does not test the +P. I just offered that second article as a possible reason as to why. According to the article, there really isn't that much of a difference in standard and +P rounds.

"Do .380 ACP +P loads increase terminal effectiveness? Probably. In the case of the Buffalo Bore JHP loads, the +P load increased penetration by 10 percent and the crush cavity by about 3 percent. Are they safe to shoot in your handgun? Probably." A 3 percent increase in cavity crush factor isn't much, which is probably why the SAAMI doesn't recognize a .380 +P load, so perhaps that is why the reviewer doesn't either.


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

With .380 being border line on power to start with I want all I can get when I have to carry it. I only carry it when I can't conceal anything else. If I was testing to find a .380 that met spec out of a short barrel I would test everything available. That's just me I guess. All or nothing. With some ammo testing so close the curiosity would get the best of me.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

zeke4351 said:


> With .380 being border line on power to start with I want all I can get when I have to carry it. I only carry it when I can't conceal anything else. If I was testing to find a .380 that met spec out of a short barrel I would test everything available. That's just me I guess. All or nothing. With some ammo testing so close the curiosity would get the best of me.


I don't blame you! Not at all. Maybe he didn't test it bc it was a 2.5" barrel, but I carry the hydrashok in my G42. Bit I also carry the G19.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm kind of set in my ways, I guess, but the .380 is the gun I carry when I don't feel like carrying, at all. I know that it has successfully defended a lot of folks, in certain circumstances, so I don't rule it out altogether. But I don't obsess over what ammo to use, usually just carrying it with whatever FMJ I have. 

I figure the value of a .380 is in having a gun when your attacker is sure that you don't have a gun, and that if I ever get in a situation I cannot retreat from, I may get an opportunity to successfully resist by firing it into a vital place, at very close range. While the FMJ will not expand, it will punch through whatever clothing my attacker is wearing, or an arm or other bones that could obstruct the 'vitals,' and still make about a 3/8" diameter hole most of the way through the chest. Three or four holes like that can cause severe leakage, in case the noise and surprise has no effect in stopping the attack, and I just might get a chance to retreat and punch three or four more holes in my attacker...or, preferably, escape.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Bisley said:


> I'm kind of set in my ways, I guess, but the .380 is the gun I carry when I don't feel like carrying, at all. I know that it has successfully defended a lot of folks, in certain circumstances, so I don't rule it out altogether. But I don't obsess over what ammo to use, usually just carrying it with whatever FMJ I have.
> 
> I figure the value of a .380 is in having a gun when your attacker is sure that you don't have a gun, and that if I ever get in a situation I cannot retreat from, I may get an opportunity to successfully resist by firing it into a vital place, at very close range. While the FMJ will not expand, it will punch through whatever clothing my attacker is wearing, or an arm or other bones that could obstruct the 'vitals,' and still make about a 3/8" diameter hole most of the way through the chest. Three or four holes like that can cause severe leakage, in case the noise and surprise has no effect in stopping the attack, and I just might get a chance to retreat and punch three or four more holes in my attacker...or, preferably, escape.


You touched on something that I think is the most important defense tactic one can employ. Retreating from a potentially dangerous situation, avoiding it altogehter if you can, is the smartest defense technique any of us can employ. I don't disagree with anything else you said either. I think what it all boils down to is doing what you feel most comfortable with. Learn what you can, make smart decisions, and stick with what you're most comfortable with.


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