# enlighten me on sniper fundementals



## 45Sidekick

Does anyone know where to find some good literature on sniping fundamentals such as: spin drift calculations, windage, corealas effect, etc??? im really intrigued by it and would like to learn more as im wanting to step up in some long range shooting. main things im looking for is the calculations/formulas needed for such shots in 600+yds any advice or direction where to find this knowledge is much appreciated
thanks
45Sidekick


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## Gunners_Mate

covers all of those questions and more, gives you a good solid understanding, as well as goes in depth enough to put the knowledge to functional use. awesome book, I take it with me every where to re-study or as a reference.


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## 45Sidekick

thanks much does this cover extreme long distance shooting?


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

the best place to find the correct information on "sniping fundamentals" is thru free training offered by either the USMC or the USArmy . both have excellent sniper schools and will even pair you up with a "weatherman" . let us know how it works out for you.....

oh, wait...... are you not interested in being a real sniper? just wanna learn long distance marksmanship but not have to do "real sniper stuff"? like a half mile crawl in a ghillie suit in 100 degree weather just to be in place to take a shot 5 hours later? 

probably prefer to sit in a shaded shelter and rest your rifle on a nice flat bench and make a shot in between sips of an iced cold fuji water?..... its not the same!


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## Gunners_Mate

every effect including corealis effect. it will give you the understanding and knowledge used for making long distance shots. at the point how far you can accurately shoot is up to you and your firearm


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## sgms

Try doing a google search on long distance shooting basics. That should get a few good reads and hopefully send you to whatever you are trying to find.


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## Packard

There are several forums devoted to the subject; Google "sniper rifle forums".

This seems to be one of the more popular ones: Sniper's Hide Forums - Forums powered by UBB.threads™

These people make some of the best sniping rifles: http://www.undergroundsw.com/page7.php

Their "Perseus" rifle is one of the very best.


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## 45Sidekick

Thanks guys and teddebear I would like to join in but can't for reasons that have nothing to do with this forum either way extreme long distance shooting is referred to as sniping. So sorry for whatever disappointment I put you through. But I already knew the usmc had the best school. That's why I was asking for literature and formulas not classes and training. But thanks anyway.


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## Packard

These people offer a sniper school. Five days, ten hours per day. $220.00 per day = $1,100.00

It appears that it is open to civilians, but is designed for pre-deployment and LEO mostly. You'd have to contact them to be sure. They list "prerequisites: none". Located in Arizona, so go in the winter during your Christmas vacation or it will be too hot.

GPS Defense Sniper School - Sniper Courses


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## 45Sidekick

thanks gunners mate i am ordering that book right now. hope its as good as you say lol. and thanks packard but im really just looking for literature and how to calculate long shots right now.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

you didnt put me thru anything.... my point is only that words mean things and long distance marksmanship and sniping are not and never will be the same thing. different skills are needed for each. they are not interchangeable.


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## 45Sidekick

well the fundamentals on achieving accuracy and target aquisation are the same principals as in sniping for an army the main difference is doing so under pressure with time limitations and problem solving on the fly. im very aware of the difference between the two and your right they are not the same cuz a bullseye and a person cannot be compared as the same. but ALL the fundamentals are the same down to breathing right, spotting yourself/and or having a spotter, and the ballistics that come with shooting distances over 600 yards. like i said im trying to get into extreme long distance shooting so the more i learn the better aside from military training.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

45Sidekick said:


> well the fundamentals on achieving accuracy and target aquisation are the same principals as in sniping for an army the main difference is doing so under pressure with time limitations and problem solving on the fly. im very aware of the difference between the two and your right they are not the same cuz a bullseye and a person cannot be compared as the same. but ALL the fundamentals are the same down to breathing right, spotting yourself/and or having a spotter, and the ballistics that come with shooting distances over 600 yards. like i said im trying to get into extreme long distance shooting so the more i learn the better aside from military training.


i gotcha. your definition as applied by you make you correct.... a long distance marksman is the same as a sniper. i am sure carlos hathcock , vassili zaitsev and christopher reynolds would have welcomed the news that all of their other skills werent needed at all.

rock on armchair sniper!


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## 45Sidekick

not what i said the principals are the same but the follow through is totally different. generally people (citizens) refer to extreme long distance marksmen as snipers for the distance and fundamentals they both follow, like i said there is no comparison between being at a shooting competition vs. vietnam, etc... so since its obviously a sore topic for you to accept that generally people refer to long distance shooting to sniping. ok you win cuz they are wrong, BUT you cannot tell me that the fundamentals for shooting that long of a distance are the same as sniping fundamentals for the same distance, all you do is subtract the war, and add a competition and where are you? the same place shooting essentially the same guns and the same distances... so let me go ahead and apologize again for the misunderstanding on sniping vs. long distance marksmanship.


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## Gunners_Mate

45Sidekick said:


> thanks gunners mate i am ordering that book right now. hope its as good as you say lol. and thanks packard but im really just looking for literature and how to calculate long shots right now.


no problem. I love that book, it goes above and beyond my level of skill without a doubt, and goes into mathematical formulae that I honestly don't have the education to figure out, as yet. But it does a VERY good job of putting the concepts into laymans terms, and illustrating thing's in ways to help make sense. It will teach you thing's you hadn't even imagined about firearms prior to reading it. enjoy!


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## 45Sidekick

well thanks again i cant wait til it comes in, that stuff is really interesting, I'm trying to learn all i can


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## Packard

Perhaps "sniper" was the wrong word. There are shooting competitions over 600 yards and 1,000 yards. Nothing dies; paper gets wounded.

See: NBRSA Records's blog | National Benchrest Shooters Association

I could see the pleasure derived from putting three round groups into a target at 200 yards inside a circle measuring .375".

We don't have any 600 yard ranges around our neck of the woods, but there are plenty of 100 yard ranges and a few 200 yard ranges where we can try this. If I had a rifle that was capable of those tight groups I'd give it a try. The ammo is crazy-expensive, especially if you go to something like a .338 Lapua. Where some of the rounds are $5.00 per shot.

But there are worse hobbies to get into. And as a hobby, actual killing is contra-recommended.

I think "sniping" was a poor word, but it adequately described the information the O.P. was looking for.


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## 45Sidekick

Thank you Packard for your wisdom


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

Packard said:


> I think "sniping" was a poor word, but it adequately described the information the O.P. was looking for.


i tend to disagree, did he want info on stealth approach?? making his own ghillie suit? recon? intel? egress and exfo?

but again, i leave it to the armchair snipers. whimper fi!


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## Steve M1911A1

I have to agree with Ted (yet again): Long-range shooting and "sniping" are nothing like the same.
I've done quite a lot of 1,000-yard "practical" shooting, including at moving targets. I know how difficult it is, to consistently make good hits at distances past 600 yards, especially with the first shot. But that is not sniping.
Sniping involves a lot more than "mere" shooting, and long-range shooting isn't the half of it.

Before you begin to learn, you have to first decide what it is that you want to accomplish.
That includes learning something about the nomenclature involved, so you can ask cogent questions.


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## 45Sidekick

let me go ahead and appologize for the miscomunication on my part by refering sniping in the wrong sense. i was trying to find out the procedures, formulas, and calculations to take extremely long shots thats why i refered to sniping as the marines have the best to offer on the subject whether you are going to be a true sniper or use the knowledge for competition shooting as i am intending on doing, at the end of the day im just searching for the knowledge to do so. so again sorry on part for not correctly refering it as extreme long distance marksmenship, but i would like to learn more about sniping as well. my main goal was to learn formulas, as well as sniper training basics to exercise myself as i would like to take 600+yard shots after running my a** off. so please understand no harm intended and just want to learn the most i can about the subject, outside of joining the marines or air force as i am unable to for now


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## 45Sidekick

btw does anyone have some hands on experience with a 38super caliber gun, if so please check my post on the subject, thanks


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## MLB

Crikey! Glad we all hashed out the obvious that sniping and long distance marksmanship are not the same. Seems as though 45Sidekick has been satisfactorily flambeed for his terminology faux-pas. Are we trying to find out just how many apologies we can get out of the newcomer? Give the guy a break already.

45Sidekick, I'd suggest that you guard against ever referring to a magazine as a clip, or there might be a lynching.


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## Holly

MLB said:


> I'd suggest that you guard against ever referring to a magazine as a clip, or there might be a lynching.


BwaHaHaHaaaHa!


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

first.... @mlb .....i aint looking for an apology or any other kowtowing from the new member, and forgive me in advance if i something i said gets your panties in a bunch..... didnt mean to make you cry..... but if he DOES call a magazine a clip i do hope someone educates him on the correct terminology.

@45sidekick.... i do hope you understand that its nothing personal with me, i am not and never was good enough to be a sniper for any military unit anywhere except maybe luxembourg. BUT i had scout/snipers on my fire team and i have the ultimate respect for them. anyone who can make 2 kill shots at 8000 feet is godlike in his ability to rain down death and destruction...... and yes, 8000 feet is 1.5 miles.


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## 45Sidekick

thanks mlb, teddebear its fine it seems like your almost as stuborn as me, but do understand that it was a mistake and not a huge one so no hard feelings


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## Gunners_Mate

You guys are too uptight about the misuse of words. if one would have simply over-looked the fact to begin with this thread would be full of.... 2 useful posts to the OP. 

yes there's a difference between a sniper and long distance shooting, bench rest or no. by the questions asked in the original post it was plainly obvious he wasn't talking about camoflouge fundamentals, cover and concealment, stealth, silence, approach and departure towards a target, using environments to your advantage, ect. 

now if the thread could possibly continue with it's original intent, the discussion of long range shooting and the factors and equations involved in solving for said factors. 

for example did you know the Navy was at one point effectively putting bullets down ranges of over 24 nautical miles? effective kills from over the horizon, now THATS sniping,


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## 45Sidekick

now thats bada***


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## VAMarine

:watching:

This shit's better than Dish.


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## DanP_from_AZ

Gunners_Mate said:


> . . . now if the thread could possibly continue with it's original intent, the discussion of long range shooting and the factors and equations involved in solving for said factors. . .


I'll try to actually "add a bit" to the previous good references.

Go to the Millett sight home page link below. Click on "Shooting Tips from Major John Plaster" He may have been a sniper, but this is just "shooting".
The tips are a series of sorta short but VERY DETAILED items about individual considerations and techniques for LONG distance shooting.
They can be read on the site, but are most useful as PDF downloads suitable for reading and printing. And re-reading. :mrgreen: 
Millett Sights - Home

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Millet. Or the Major.

Last year I bought a Millet TRS-1 (Tactical Rifle Scope) 4x-16x by 50 mm. With their "Mil-Dotbar" illuminated reticle. Reset to zero "target/tactical knobs".
Their setup allows you to read and adjust elevation/windage knobs while your cheek is still "welded" to the stock.
Also, their site has the "Instruction and Operation Manual for the TRS-1. Presents how to use Mil-Dot reticles for long range shooting.

Their TRS-1 is on a Rem. 700 I bought back in the '90's. A Rem. 700 with stainless receiver, heavy stainless fluted barrel, composite stock. Harris bipod.
Rem. catalogued this as a "varmint rifle". Which it mostly was(is). Mine is the top of the range of Rem. "varmint cartridges". As in the Win. 308
nee 7.62 NATO. I have been known joke with friends it's for "very large varmints". It's basically the M40, except not all black.

The Millet replaced a standard reticle target scope. This "new" combination shoots very well. I am lucky enough to be able to go out to our Nat'l Forest.
Where I can try (try is the correct word) to make shots at "unknown distances well beyond 100 yards". The scope is designed to help you do just that.
I find this is a LOT more fun than trying to minimize a group at 100 yds, over and over and over again. Your mileage may vary. :smt1099

I guess some folks might think I'm a "wanna be" sniper. Nope, at age 69 I just enjoy the "shooting challenge" different from the 100 yard target deal.
I don't even own any camo or black tactical clothing. :anim_lol:


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## Packard

For some instant gratification try Googling "zeroing in long distance scope" and you will find many articles and discussions on the subject.

See: zeroing in long distance scope - Google Search

As for actual shooting, the same skills that get you bulls eyes at 100 and 200 yards will get you good marks at the longer distances. But your errors will be magnified by 3 or 6 times. So if you are shooting to 1" at 100 yards you might find your groups now at 6". Lots of practice involved (and no coffee just before shooting.)


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

:roll:


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## 45Sidekick

thanks guys ill check them out


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## VAMarine

There is absolutely no good reason to revive and re-hash this thread.


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