# storage of fully loaded double stacked magazines



## backdrman0 (Jul 31, 2012)

i must have several hundred magazines for my autos. they're all fully loaded magazines, an stored. my question is, will the springs weaken due to all the magazines being fully loaded? i have probably thirty some diffrent caliber autos, all with atleast 30 to 40 magazines a piece. i like to know they are ready to be picked up an taken should time ever arise. but if storing fully loaded magazines is o good for the springs, well then i need to know. thank you all for your help an friendship.


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

backdrman0 said:


> my question is, will the springs weaken due to all the magazines being fully loaded?


Nope. Springs wear due to cycling, not being under load.



backdrman0 said:


> i have probably thirty some diffrent caliber autos, all with atleast 30 to 40 magazines a piece.


Holy sheeeet, that's a lot of mags! I'm curious, what's your reasoning for so many?

KG


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

KG is right,but that means they are good springs to begin with.Unless a bad run happens,your top name manufacturers are using quality springs so there should be no concern in most instances.

AR 30rd(at least older ones) and 8rd in 7rd tube 1911 mags depart from this a bit.Both are pushing the limit on the spring fully loaded,hence the old standard of downloading the mag a round or 2.High quality springs shouldn't take an initial set,but some do and it really doesn't matter much as long as it doesn't continue to shorten over time.I use Wolff springs for replacements in just about everything but HKs.Also don't fall into the hype of chrome silicon springs,they aren't better if you ask a metalurgist that works in that field.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

So far you have reeived the correct information. Normally there is one or two who will say metalurgy is like vodoo science and they had a spring once that got weak from being loaded and all springs get weak being loadeed and scientist are part of a conspiracy to make you buy more springs. The guys who abducted them told them about springs as they were probing them in the mothership. 

Springs are designed to carry a load and weaken with cycling.

RCG


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Yes, I am one of those guys who say that magazine springs can weaken from being left loaded - because, I personally have had magazine springs weaken (magazines from more than 1 manufacturer) by leaving mags FULLY loaded for a long period of time... I've had them (the affected magazines) not lock the slide back on an empty mag anymore. At that point, I have to replace them with +10% Wolf magazine springs.

The comment about this train of thought being nonsense comes from some - saying that they can ONLY wear out from actual usage (up and down movement)... However, they have no information or data to back that up. I will say that my real world experience says otherwise...

Also, on the Wolff Gunsprings website (the people who do nothing but make springs for guns), they say the following:



> 5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?
> 
> Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.
> 
> ...


Now, they should know better than anyone else about magazine springs. That is their comment, and I have personal experience to say that their advice seems to be true.

Followers have gotten shorter/smaller, to squeeze in an extra round or two (how more modern 9mm doublestacks have gone from 15 rounds to 17 or 18 rounds in a magazine that is essentially the same length). This puts more stress on the spring when the magazine is fully loaded...

But, discount this information if you wish...


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

As the previous poster said please discount that information. If I were in the business of selling magazines I would word my website very similarily. I would also attempt to train people to believe their real world experiance contridicts science. My attempt might be a little more obvious










SPRINGS WEAKEN FROM BEARING A LOAD...SPRINGS WEAKEN FROM BEARING A LOAD.......

but it obviously could barely be any more effective.

RCG


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

See, but you base that on ZERO data to prove anything. If its true - show it...

I have had HK mags and Beretta mags and Ruger mags have this happen to them. On multiple occasions too (so, more than just 1 mag of each brand). But, you being the metal expert must know otherwise - because you said so. That's it. 

I've explained real world experience AND comments from a spring manufacturer. You say otherwise, just because... I really have no intention of debate, but I love how people take your stance on forums all the time when this question comes up... Call others full of it, and all because "they say so" with nothing else but their claim that everyone else is nuts...

Regardless of what Wolf says (which backs up my point of view) - I've seen it personally. So, there is something to it in some cases, no matter what you show me that says the contrary... And, it makes sense. A 7 round 1911 magazine will likely never have such an issue. There is more room between the bottom of the magazine and the bottom of the follower. Hi cap mags over 15 rounds CAN suffer from this. Do they all? No, but some do.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

I have had this discussion with you before, if not you then the last guy who believes the same folly you do. I have presented the facts and metalurgical specs that explains the way and reactions of spring steel. Only to have it dismissed as silly metalurgy andt that has no place compared to real life, one time, no standard, undocumented, it happened to me and makes sense logic. I will not bother to join the debate you have no intention of having. I will just tell you a fact or two.

Here are facts:
There are many aspects of metal that are not understood or realized by those noyt in the steel industry, first and foremost in this discussion you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years
The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). Maybe that is what was someones real world experiance I cant say but neither can they. If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. or is moving the mags and causing the bullets to roltate or movre in the mag. All of these could cause feed failures. There are many factors that can play into a a loaded magazine and the springs ability to retain uits original shape. However the simple fact that it is loaded sadly is not one of them.

You can have your real world experiance and words of wisdom from vendors of a product that is actually designed not to fail. Without seeding doubt the product will never really neeed to be replaced. I will let this go now but I will not let you tell people what is not true, is true because you seen it happen. When a ship goes past the horizion it does not fall off the earth even if one you saw never came back. You are arguing against science and this is a proven scuence ASTM A228 is the spec for spring type steel, if you have time to see the charts and understand the spec you will know something other then your bullets sitting perfectly still on the spring over time weakened the spring, you think weakened from being loaded. If you need more you you can not be convinced of facts. Good luck be safe....

RCG


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

> I will let this go now but I will not let you tell people what is not true, is true because you seen it happen.


That is my exact opinion of your comments as well. It is one of these things that I will say (and have above, essentially) - believe what you want. But, I have gone back to the habit of the 1980s and early 1990s - underload the magazine by 1 round. I have had much less problems with this issue.

So, once again - I have given specifics, given personal examples, and given quotes from a spring company... But, of course, I am to be ignored because you know better, just because you say so.... Everything I have said is a lie, and I am a crackpot for believing it... Essentially your claim... Whatever....


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Shipwreck said:


> Yes, I am one of those guys who say that magazine springs can weaken from being left loaded - because, I personally have had magazine springs weaken (magazines from more than 1 manufacturer) by leaving mags FULLY loaded for a long period of time... I've had them (the affected magazines) not lock the slide back on an empty mag anymore. At that point, I have to replace them with +10% Wolf magazine springs.
> 
> The comment about this train of thought being nonsense comes from some - saying that they can ONLY wear out from actual usage (up and down movement)... However, they have no information or data to back that up. I will say that my real world experience says otherwise...
> 
> ...


I likewise agree w/ Shipwreck and Wolf gunsprings. I do believe leaving magazines fully loaded and/or cycling often does detrimentaly weaken them over time. My experience coincides w/ what Wolf gunsprings is saying and Shipwreck has experienced, granted whether it's a marketing ploy to manufacturer below spec mag springs so they wear out quicker and consumers need to buy more is a question, however, Wolf gunsprings through my experience are some of the best springs out there. I always left my 92FS magazine fully loaded as a car gun, I'd say at least for 2 years. Took it out to shoot it and it malfunctioned which was a shock to me.Never, ever had that happened, I was glad I tested it instead of experiencing that malfunction in a self defense scenario. I know this particular pistol like the back of my hand and always maintained it 100%. I immediately suspected the magazine spring being the culpirit as I believe the spring was weakened to an extent where it didn't get the round up in time for the slide to pick it up. I subsequently replaced the magazine spring w/ a new one and that indeed was the problem, no guess work there. Being that this particular 92FS had never malfunctioned and I didn't believe it to be ammo, extractor, recoil spring or any other issue than the magazine spring formed my opinion. Likewise, I've experienced the same with my SAR-1 a remarkably reliable rifle that I left 30 rounders fully loaded for a year or so and experienced malfunctions on the last 2- 3 rounds in the magazine once again helping to form my opinion. I've heard argument from both sides whereas magazine springs can only weaken by cycling as opposed to being left fully loaded over time.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

The truth is that _springs shorten slightly_ when they are first loaded, but that slight shortening does not indicate that the shortened spring has been weakened.
Only repeated flexing (that is, for instance, repeated loading and unloading a magazine) will eventually weaken a spring.

Every spring "takes a set" when it is first flexed. That's the shortening you will observe. But taking a set is not the equivalent of weakening.
Only "metal fatigue," the cracking of the molecular bonds of the metal's crystalline lattice, will eventually cause a spring to fail. The metal's crystalline-lattice bonds crack only as the result of repeated flexing. QED.

I respect the knowledge of the Wolff Springs people, but I also believe that anyone who suggests that the best thing to do would be to underload your magazine by one or two rounds is focussed more on the spring than on its function.
The function of a 12-round magazine, for instance, is to deliver 12 rounds to your pistol, reliably and without fail. Although the magazine's spring would last longer, were you to load the magazine with only 10 rounds, doing that would defeat the entire purpose of the magazine.
Load the magazine with the whole 12 rounds, and be aware of potential spring failure from your use. Replace the spring when it starts to misbehave during practice.
Rotate your magazines, using the more-newly-sprung ones for concealed carry, and relegating older springs to practice shooting until those springs fail.
Then replace the spring, and perhaps use the magazine for carry purposes again.

..._But_:
Don't forget that a magazine's feed lips are also springs, also subject to fatigue and failure.
Be prepared to discard magazine bodies, too, when they show symptoms of fatigue.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I have had to replace Beretta mags as soon as 3 months after being loaded to the 15 round max. After 3 or 4 mags of this occurring, I have extra wolff springs on hand. Now, I have the magazines marked that I have replaced the springs in.

Now, loading *those* to full seems to not have the negative effect on the springs as it does on the factory springs. The Wolf +10% springs are apparently better than factory springs. But in general, I still do not leave these loaded to the max anymore.

This is occurring with both 15 round fullsize Beretta mags AND 13 round compact mags. (I have a compact Beretta mag spring I need to replace right now, in fact)

Also, I have owned several Hk handguns over the years. I have had to replace the magazine spring on *EVERY* Hk USPc 9mm and Hk USPc 45 magazine I ever owned (guns I previously owned) for reasons stated in previous posts (just like the Beretta mags). I put the +10% springs in there to help eliminate this need again... When you have to start replacing springs in 10-14+ magazines, it gets expensive (and HK mags are expensive to begin with).

Also had this issue with Ruger magazine springs in the past too.

Now, it does seem that once I replace the magazine spring with a Wolff magazine spring - the problem has never occurred again. But, this illustrates that FACTORY magazine springs can and due suffer. Wolff must make a better product.

Now, I no longer top off the magazine in most of my handguns. I load the magazine fully, then chamber a round, and THEN I do not add one more round to the magazine anymore... hence, underloading it by one. The exception is when the magazine is a 10 rounder or less. I do top those off because of the limited capacity... But, I accept that I may have to deal with this issue with those mags...

Curiously enough, I've never had a problem with magazine springs in a mag that holds 10 rounds or less...

If it's a magazine with over a 10 round capacity, I now underload it by one. I do rotate my magazines.

But the original poster specified that he had a LOT of magazines *fully *loaded. My whole point was that he may want to reconsider that...


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I do believe that the elements contibute to spring fatigue as well, not only cycling, such as: oxidation, reduction, rust, humidity, etc....as well.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

I'll only say this ONE MORE TIME....


If you can't afford to replace a part THAT'S MEANT TO BE REPLACED, then you most likely can't afford to shoot your guns!

Springs are CONSUMABLE parts. That means that they need to be replace when they no longer work. As Steve pointed out, the magazine is there to feed your pistol, not last forever. Why in the hell would you buy a gun capable of holding XX amount of rounds only to carry it everyday with XX-2 rounds? I hope for their sake that the people who down load their magazines because they don't want to replace a $6 spring never run into a situation where they need those extra two rounds.

Six frickin' dollars vs. a potentially life saving couple of rounds. You make the call. (what am I wasting time typing this out for? Many folks couldn't get a draw from concealment hit on a low percentage target in under 4 seconds let alone 2. Hell, download your mags by 5. Your springs will outlive you!)


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

So, first - I'm full of it because I can't possibly be right. Now, "springs are consumables."

Geeze... Once again, the original poster has 30-40 magazines - all loaded (as per his post). he asked a question. According to some, I know not what I say. But, all of a sudden, springs are "consumables." Interesting...

I've dealt with this same issue by leaving rifle magazines loaded to capacity over a long period of time too. I'm not saying every magazine will suffer from this - but some do and will...

In closing, I will say that I personally think that leaving a lot of mags fully loaded for a long period of time is a bad idea. If you want to leave a lot of mags loaded, under-loading by 1 CAN and WILL extend the life of your magazine spring (*NO WHERE DID I SAW UNDERLOAD BY TWO, I said ONE* - and I admitted that I do not do this for 10 or less round magazines).

Cycling loaded mags also help save the life of a magazine spring (this was advice in like EVERY gun magazine in th e 1990s and 2000s... But, if springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded, why would some of you advocate this as a strategy? If I am wrong, then it would make no sense now, would it?

"Consumable" talk all you want... If he (the original poster) needs those mags one day - the ones left loaded for extended periods of time... When he's using them is NOT the time to find out that they MIGHT NOT be working because they were left loaded too long. Tell the bad guy to wait while you order some new springs and change them.....

Am I exaggerating? Well, look at what Denner said... His gun didn't work when he hit the range because of it... But he's lying too, right? And, if Denner needed his gun the night *before* he went to the range (for self defense purposes)? What then? Well, springs are "consumables" at $6... So, he can tell the attacker to wait a minute while he stops to change mags?

Yes, I am being sarcastic because of the attitude here... I feel like I have to spell it out 1 letter at a time... I A-M N-O-T S-A-Y-I-N-G T-H-A-T T-H-I-S E-F-F-E-C-T-S E-V-E-R-Y M-A-G-A-Z-I-N-E, but it can effect some.

This topic is always annoying because the "springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded" guys still have no proof that I am wrong. I just am just "wrong" because they say it's so... I must be so out of it, because what I have seen with my own eyes can't possibly be true. I MUST be lying or making things up or be in denial...... None of that could have possibly happened, because they say so...

Also, there is always some way they can validly excuse the FAQ info from a GUNSPRING manufacturer, right?

I'm finished with this thread. Others can take from it what they wish... I am not wrong...


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

denner said:


> I do believe that the elements contibute to spring fatigue as well, not only cycling, such as: oxidation, reduction, rust, humidity, etc....as well.


Yes. Of course.
But cycling contributes the most toward the spring's demise.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Don't ya love this subject,hehe?Believe it or not,everyone has a point here.My 'puter ate the big one but I had a spring metalurgist jump in to one of these and lost that and more-again.The initial set is seriously dependant on-guess what-price.

Like I said,Wolff is basically THE spring as stated.The only thing I don't use them for is HK because they have had known bad runs as Shipwreck has implied.The dude I had the article from had covered all aspects of this conversation covered,but it wasn't limited to just mag spring,it was springs period.We accept a set and lived with it,no biggie as long as they don't go in the crapper fast.That being said,in a situation where the spring isn't being taxed by pushing the line between it's compressed length and space to be so,they're good.As SW said,Beretta pushes the line by my experience in the 92FS and I have 10 to prove it,a 7rd 1911 doesn't near as bad.GI 30rd AR mags do also.Throw 8rds in a 7rd tube 1911 mag conversion and they hit the sheeter fairly quick too.

Your car sits on springs,buy one and park it for decades.A cheap car may sag from set,a good spring will not,even holding up 2 tons.Part of that 'set' also has to do with the seals in the shocks deteriorating and leaking down a touch.Considering when a 1911 recoil spring is 1/2" short of new and spent,we're really talking peanuts to a point.Now throw in an original spec 1911 mag that performed 60 years later fully loaded,and trying that with a mag that cost a good 7X that with basically a new and improved spring,follower,and hey-let's add 1/4" to relive some pressure on the spring.

Sorry guys,rambling again,trying to get over losing a pool tournament by one freakin'shot.Later.


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## Reddog1 (Oct 26, 2011)

I don't pretend to be a metalurgist but I do have a degree in civil / structural engineering so I know just enough to be dangerous. There are good springs made for high cycle use and there are inferior springs made to mimic the part design but at less cost. Springs work essentially by resisting a load that attempts to twist (torsion) the wire from its manufactured or "formed" state. So the number of cycles placed on the spring does result in some fatigue, the actual amount of weakening varying depending on the composition of the steel, load, temperture, and number of cycles placed on it. Also, if you took a new spring and loaded it just once and left it that way for an extended period it would be expected to suffer "some loss" of resistance to the load too but the actual amount would depend again on the metalurgy, temperture and other factors and it might be very, very minimal as to be negligible. Basiclly, we are talking about a $30.00+/- clip here so does it really matter in the end? Buy good quality clips manufactured with top quality parts and use them as they were designed. I think there is a little paranoia present in this discusion and I wonder if it is based on actual problems with clips or a perceived problem with clips? If you are worried about it then rotate the clips you have preloaded with empty clips periodicly to reduce the stress placed on the springs. And buy the best quality clips you can afford. And just because one spring in one clip fails does not necessarily mean that there is a problem with all of the same brand clips or for that matter the design. There ............ I feel better. Hope this helps a little.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> So, first - I'm full of it because I can't possibly be right. Now, "springs are consumables."


Springs ARE consumable parts, to include your recoil spring, extractor spring (if there is one), hammer spring, etc. If you don't think so, sorry... you're wrong. They're just like oil in your car. Try going without changing that out periodically and see how it works out for you.


> Geeze... Once again, the original poster has 30-40 magazines - all loaded (as per his post). he asked a question. According to some, I know not what I say. But, all of a sudden, springs are "consumables." Interesting...


There's no "all of the sudden". Springs have ALWAYS been a consumable parts. It's just that most people don't bother to maintain their weapons or don't shoot them enough before selling them off for the next "hotness" to ever have to worry about it. You'll also notice that I never said leaving magazines loaded is a good idea, other than to have them readily available. Having 30 guns with eleventy-billion magazines all ready to go, in my opinion, is silly. Personally, for one of my guns, I have about 60 magazines. 15 are loaded and used on a regular basis. The others sit stored for later use. Why anyone would load eleventy-billion magazines is beyond me. They can't carry them all with them in the event then needed to exfil the hell outta Dodge.



> I've dealt with this same issue by leaving rifle magazines loaded to capacity over a long period of time too. I'm not saying every magazine will suffer from this - but some do and will...


Great. Good for you. Oh, and by the way, I was never addressing YOU specifically, but it seems as though you've taken this personally because you like to toss "consumables" around. I'm not taking it personally, I'm just exasperated by the steadfastness which people continue (read many people, not poor you) to think that things should last forever and never get scratched or ever have a broken part, etc.


> In closing, I will say that I personally think that leaving a lot of mags fully loaded for a long period of time is a bad idea. If you want to leave a lot of mags loaded, under-loading by 1 CAN and WILL extend the life of your magazine spring (*NO WHERE DID I SAW UNDERLOAD BY TWO, I said ONE* - and I admitted that I do not do this for 10 or less round magazines).


Again, I WASN'T ADDRESSING YOU SPECIFICALLY! There's many of us that always contribute to this same topic and I was talking to everyone... not just you. Please, for future reference, if I'm addressing you, I will quote your post or specifically type "@Shipwreck". Kaythanks.


> Cycling loaded mags also help save the life of a magazine spring (this was advice in like EVERY gun magazine in th e 1990s and 2000s... But, if springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded, why would some of you advocate this as a strategy? If I am wrong, then it would make no sense now, would it?
> 
> "Consumable" talk all you want... If he (the original poster) needs those mags one day - the ones left loaded for extended periods of time... When he's using them is NOT the time to find out that they MIGHT NOT be working because they were left loaded too long. Tell the bad guy to wait while you order some new springs and change them.....


You seem to like to point out what other people say... unfortunately, you're not very good at it. I've never advocated keeping a shit ton of magazines loaded, just the ones you need/use. I never said YOU said down load by 2. See how that works, I read what you typed. I didn't wave at the pool and say "Hey deep end, you've met your match today!!!"


> Am I exaggerating? Well, look at what Denner said... His gun didn't work when he hit the range because of it... But he's lying too, right? And, if Denner needed his gun the night *before* he went to the range (for self defense purposes)? What then? Well, springs are "consumables" at $6... So, he can tell the attacker to wait a minute while he stops to change mags?


I don't think you're exaggerating, in fact I also never even mentioned that either. If a gun doesn't work because it's been sitting there and then when you take it to the range and it doesn't work... that's because the gun isn't being maintained properly. I guess I never have that issue because I function check my weapons when they come out of the safe. Pretty simple to do and it eliminates 99% of the issues one may have if a gun sits idle. (counting up the references to "consumables" just to make sure you're taking what I said personally... too bad, I wasn't talking directly to you... you just took it that way. Often a sign.)


> Yes, I am being sarcastic because of the attitude here... I feel like I have to spell it out 1 letter at a time... I A-M N-O-T S-A-Y-I-N-G T-H-A-T T-H-I-S E-F-F-E-C-T-S E-V-E-R-Y M-A-G-A-Z-I-N-E, but it can effect some.
> 
> This topic is always annoying because the "springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded" guys still have no proof that I am wrong. I just am just "wrong" because they say it's so... I must be so out of it, because what I have seen with my own eyes can't possibly be true. I MUST be lying or making things up or be in denial...... None of that could have possibly happened, because they say so...
> 
> ...


Shipwreck, you're asking for data points. You've provided two. A gunspring manufacturer (who's in the business of SELLING gunsprings) and your own anecdotal evidence. So, a sample of two? Wow. That's definitive! You aren't proving the point from your point of view to any notable degree, except in your own mind. What I'm advocating, as you seem to have taken great affront to this word, consumable parts need replaced. Simple as that. Do springs have magical properties? No. Do they last forever? No. Do they need to be monitored and maintained? Absolutely. Should people come up for air from the deep end of the pool. Please do.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

:smt038

Nicely played........


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set' ………


The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

Shameful Spring Benders

To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I'm not going to debate this any further - I took my tone in my replies as that tone had already been set.

I have SEEN this occur with my own eyes - I've stated my opinion, and I'm not going to repeat myself over and over. 

Believe whatever you wish to...


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> I'm not going to debate this any further - I took my tone in my replies as that tone had already been set.
> 
> I have SEEN this occur with my own eyes - I've stated my opinion, and I'm not going to repeat myself over and over.
> 
> Believe whatever you wish to...


Don't debate if you wish. I WILL believe what I've seen and it's entirely contrary to your experience. See, data point of one x 15,000+ rounds a year.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

zhurdan said:


> Don't debate if you wish. I WILL believe what I've seen and it's entirely contrary to your experience. See, data point of one x 15,000+ rounds a year.


So now it's experience vs experience? I don't shoot that many rounds in a year, but I do shoot probably 5-7k a year, and I've probably own(ed) more handguns than you will likely ever own. So, what does that matter?

We can agree to disagree. What is strange is that the opposing side of this argument typically cannot let it go at that...


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> So now it's experience vs experience? I don't shoot that many rounds in a year, but I do shoot probably 5-7k a year, and I've probably own(ed) more handguns than you will likely ever own. So, what does that matter?
> 
> We can agree to disagree. What is strange is that the opposing side of this argument typically cannot let it go at that...


That's because you are seemingly unwilling to understand that physics and metallurgy aren't hocus pocus. Is it applicable in every instance? Of course not. Does it have merit based on decades of empirical evidence? Absolutely. Your personal experience doesn't trump that. I brought up MY experience because you continually say things like "I have SEEN this occur with my own eyes" and "Believe whatever you wish to..." which are statements that are personal experience related, not empirical and cannot be analyzed by others.

My opinion on the matter... if you have a magazine that isn't functioning properly, replace the spring. If that doesn't fix it, replace the magazine. If that doesn't fix it, get the gun checked out or change ammo. See, that's a method, as in scientific method. Elimination of variables, not _just believe me, a single solitary person who refuses to accept scientific evidence_. These threads are replete with examples of long lasting springs and the things that damage springs and how springs function. Hooke was no slouch and his theory has been verified and re-verified many times. Who am I to discount good science? Keep in mind that Hooke's law is based on the technology of it's time. Did he have tempered high quality materials? No. Do we have those materials now? Yes. Am I being unreasonable to ask that someone believe what has been "witnessed" by thousands of people over decades of use? I think not.

It's all about data points. If I take a poll of experts on springs and I get 4 people to answer or I take a poll of experts on springs and get thousands of answers... well, the one with more data points is _more likely_ to be the truth. You are a data point of one. I'm not calling you out, I'm not trying to berate you, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm not saying you don't know anything about anything. I'M SAYING THAT MANY PEOPLE BEFORE YOU (and me) have a better idea of how things react OVER TIME. *cough* datapoints *cough*.

If your experience is such that you believe what you do, fine, but I'd hope you would recognize that a data point of one is a lonely place to be.

Good day sir.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Not changing my mind, and I can probably find articles to back up my point of view as well. We're not getting anywhere here.

We can agree to disagree - others can read the thread and make up their own mind.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Wrong or Right, Copper to Gold, Batwings to Cauldron, I will always follow the advice below as even if I'm wrong I know my magazine springs will be right. A self defense pistol or rifle for that matter which fails to function in a time of desperate need is a terrible thing one much worse than arguments over springs. Furthermore, creasing of the rounds by being left fully loaded in magazines for extended periods of time is perhaps another good reason not to. I know one thing when I shot that Berreta that didn't cycle because of the magazine spring or creasing of the rounds it shook me real good to consider what if? I know I will never leave magazines fully loaded for extended periods of time and rely on them 100%. 

5. How often should I change magazine springs? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? 
Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting. 

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines which could last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring. 

More recently higher capacity magazines have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical. 

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably.


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## jdw68 (Nov 5, 2011)

The truth is we really don't know what exactly caused a spring to fail when we discover our spring is bad, because there are just to many variables. For example, did the spring come with a defect from the factory, is it made from a cheaper material, is this spring loaded in a single or double stack magazine, and what are the conditions in which it is stored. Some folks will claim to have knowledge in metallurgy, science, experience, etc, but they don't all seem to agree. I am not an expert on this subject and certainly am not trying to change the way anyone practices. However, common sense just tells me that rotating a magazine every month or two just seems to make sense. I also only load my Beretta 92 mags one shy of max capacity when being left stored. Why? Because, I doubt that I will ever be in a gunfight and lose because I had 14 rounds instead of 15. I also think that a large double stack mag puts more pressure on springs than a 1911 style. In addition, every once in a while I like to shoot the expensive hollow points at the practice range just to make sure everything is still functioning properly before I load it back up for defensive purposes. That way I know the magazine is working, the gun still cycles that ammo, no creases are forming on the cases, and I can hit with the ammo I plan to use for self defense. I may be crazy and waisting my time, but it really doesn't take that much time to cycle a magazine, especially if your doing it at the range And, for those who like to claim that science has already discovered the answer and that we are backward not to accept the facts. Well, the problem with scientists is that they are always discovering the answer and then later discovering that what was so obvious before is now obviously wrong. Sometimes, common sense tells me to stick to what works.


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

It has been my experience that the weapons I've fired that use double stack mags have springs that are fully compressed when fully loaded. When trying to insert a fully loaded mag when the slide or bolt is forward, the top round in the mag must be pushed down by the slide/bolt for the mag to be inserted. If the spring is fully compressed the extra space is made by the staggered rounds being pushed outboard. This made me have to hit the bottom of the mag to get it to lock in. The sides of the mag bulge causing the mag to want to stay in place even if the mag release is pressed. I have even seen m16 mags split at the seem where they are spot welded together due the performing repeated combat reloads with fully loaded mags (inserting fresh mag while round is still in chamber meaning bolt is forward). Because my carry piece has plastic double stack mags and plastic seems to have memory, I download them by 1. There are reasons other than 'spring fatigue' to consider downloading certain mags.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i use ramline magazines, no longer made.... but they used a coiled ribbon spring to maintain a steady pressure, no binding, and since the spring isnt under compression when the magazine is loaded, it makes these kinda debates useless. the coiled ribbon spring becomes smaller as the magazine is loaded and therefore creates more room for additional rounds beyond the standard magazine. these carry a lifetime guarantee thru ramline.... 

the company stopped producitng them during the assault weapons ban and magazine capacity limits.... too bad.


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## 870ShellShucker (Oct 12, 2011)

This thread could be used to help sell Revolvers.

This is a very good group of forums.


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

zhurdan said:


> That's because you are seemingly unwilling to understand that physics and metallurgy aren't hocus pocus. Is it applicable in every instance? Of course not. Does it have merit based on decades of empirical evidence? Absolutely. Your personal experience doesn't trump that. . . *cough* datapoints *cough*.
> 
> If your experience is such that you believe what you do, fine, but I'd hope you would recognize that a data point of one is a lonely place to be.


OK, I've been here more than a few times. In my humble opinion, no one is totally right or wrong about "springs".

1. I'm on *Zhurdan's *side with regard to scientific method. And with regard to springs. 
This has the caveat that the springs in question have to be properly designed with regard to all the possible spring variables to promote "proper life".
Amongst a myriad of "stuff", this means the spring metallurgy is "properly done", as well as the design variables.

2. I'm on *Shipwreck's* side when he claims "real world experience" In my humble opinion, his observations occurr because the
spring manufacturer did NOT follow all of the design/metallurgy requirements to achieve a spring with "infinite life" given it usage requirements.
Whether this is due to design ignorance, lack of proper steel material selection/heat treating, or just plain saving dollars I cannot say.

But:
I can say that *Shipwreck's *"treating magazine's safety items" as the cautious alternative can obliviate "Item 2 problems" makes sense.

When in doubt, go conservative. (This is a real problem with airplanes. If you go "too conservative", the damn things won't fly).
Not a problem with magazines. Screw "the debate". Go conservative, replace springs. Expect them to work EVERY time they are needed.
The problem with this is do you actually know the replacement springs are any better than the "trash" you replaced ? Do you ?

Hey, I just stumbled on the answer ! It's revolvers !
In return for going back to only five or six rounds, the damn things work every time !
I'm taking my FS92 and my extra 15 round mag off my nightstand next to my Mossberg 500 with 7 + 1 double-ought buckshot.

And, replacing it with my Ruger SuperRedhawk Alaskan 2.5 in. snubby in .454 Casull.
I may not be able to hit anything when the dogs wake me up from a deep sleep. But, by G_D, they'll be bailing due to the noise ! :mrgreen:


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## jm38 (Jun 30, 2012)

Spring steel comes in different tensile strengths and will not change by being compressed. Working the spring rapidly will create heat, and heat, over time will alter the tensile strength of the spring. Loading a spring and leaving it loaded will not weaken the spring steel.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i use ramline magazines, no longer made.... but they used a coiled ribbon spring to maintain a steady pressure, no binding, and since the spring isnt under compression when the magazine is loaded, it makes these kinda debates useless. the coiled ribbon spring becomes smaller as the magazine is loaded and therefore creates more room for additional rounds beyond the standard magazine. these carry a lifetime guarantee thru ramline....
> 
> the company stopped producitng them during the assault weapons ban and magazine capacity limits.... too bad.


I'm gonna avoid the main topic because it never ends - just see the post right before mine (#33)... I've stated my opinion and cited examples...

But as for ram line, you should check the glocktalk forum... There is a guy that started a thread there last week, nostalgic about the old Ramline items...No remember Ramline differently, and so does everyone else that posted, except for mr nostalgic.... 

I remember Ramline mags in the 1990s are jam-o-mastic garbage that wouldn't even feed one round without jamming. Right before the 1994 ban, distributors hoarded hi cap factory mags, in anticipation of what they could get for them once the ban went into effect. So all that was left in my area of the country were aftermarket mags... I tried several Ramline mags. They were horrendous.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Shipwreck said:


> I'm gonna avoid the main topic because it never ends - just see the post right before mine (#33)... I've stated my opinion and cited examples...
> 
> But as for ram line, you should check the glocktalk forum... There is a guy that started a thread there last week, nostalgic about the old Ramline items...No remember Ramline differently, and so does everyone else that posted, except for mr nostalgic....
> 
> I remember Ramline mags in the 1990s are jam-o-mastic garbage that wouldn't even feed one round without jamming. Right before the 1994 ban, distributors hoarded hi cap factory mags, in anticipation of what they could get for them once the ban went into effect. So all that was left in my area of the country were aftermarket mags... I tried several Ramline mags. They were horrendous.


roflmao.... so i own the only taurus pistols and the only ramline mags that arent crap and never jammed? i wish i had used that kinda luck to win the lotto instead...i coulda bout good stuff with the money


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I see all sorts of typos in that from my ipad autocorrect - Damn autocorrect...

But yea - Ramline is known as junk....


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Shipwreck said:


> I see all sorts of typos in that from my ipad autocorrect - Damn autocorrect...
> 
> But yea - Ramline is known as junk....


then i guess i will keep the 4 that i have as examples of the exceptions to the rule.


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