# Convincing a friend to use a 9mm+



## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

So my roommate just turned 21 and is wanting a handgun for both home defense and concealed carry. I've been trying to get him to go to Bud's gun shop with me and hold a few to see what he likes, but he's somehow convinced that he wants a P22 because it's small and easy to conceal. I've told him everything I know about terminal ballistics, penetration depths, expansion/mushrooming, permanent cavities, etc. He still wants a .22LR because of the size. Can anyone give me some suggestions on a VERY small handgun that's chambered for a 9mm or something bigger? My roommate is super skinny and doesn't think he could conceal anything bigger than a .22, and thinks it's a sufficient caliber for self-defense. I hope I can convince him otherwise before he goes carting a target pistol around on his waist.


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## kenn (Dec 13, 2007)

*Dude, get a Keltec*

While I heard they beat up your hand because they are small, he could get a Keltec PF9, - 9mm, bout the size of a wallet.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pf9.html

Or, if he is hell-bent, aren't there defensive 22 rounds - Quick-Shock? or CCI Stingers? or Federal Hyper Velocity?


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

The Kahr PM9 is very small and concealable. It will fit in your pocket. Goes a little over $600 though. The CW9 is larger but also very concealable. I would recommend the Kahr over the Kel-Tec.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Funny... I chose the Kel-Tec over the Kahr...

Carred a PM40 for 6 months. Now a P11 (if I'm not carrying my XD9SC).

Tell him to stick w/ a 9mm. 380 minimum...


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

He's like the general population who think that any shot from a handgun, assuming it's a body or head shot, will instantly kill you. He thinks if you shoot someone with a gun, regardless of ballistics/caliber, if the bullet hits them anywhere in the body or head, they die. Sure, you can kill someone with a .22LR. But a 9mm will still drop someone faster, all things being equal. Maybe if I set a .22LR CCI mini-mag next to one of my .40S&W Gold Dots and let him see the difference, he'll get it. Most people do.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think a .22 is a bad choice for a new shooter. He'll be able to shoot a lot for very little money and gain skill. Is it ideal for CCW? No, but no gun is perfect. He will at least fulfill the First Rule of Gunfighting (Have a Gun!), and thus be better prepared than 99% of people out there.

A burst of .22LR to the face will end most fights. Anyway, studies show that in something like 19 of 20 cases, the gun isn't even fired. Mere display of a pistol - and the readiness to use it - ends most fights before they really start.

If he's comfortable with the P22 and resistant to changing his ideas, don't harp on him. Let him get it, and go to the range with him. Maybe later he'll upgrade to a bigger caliber, once he gets a feel for shooting.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Finally a reply from Mike. 

I think a .22 is a great first gun. I have no regrets about getting one as they're fun to shoot, CHEAP to shoot, and great for learning the basics.

The issue I'm having with him is simply that he's not talking about getting a .22LR as a first practice gun, then upgrading. He's talking about getting a .22LR as his carry weapon. If he wants to go to the range and shoot for cheap, he can shoot mine while I'm breaking in my P99 even more, or pick one up for $300. Money's not an issue with him either as he probably has enough in his checking account to buy a gold-plated Desert Eagle. He's just convinced that a .22 will stop someone as fast as a 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc.

I'm not trying to keep him from getting a .22, but simply to convince him that's it's not the ideal carry weapon. It's better than nothing, that's for sure, but in the event he'd need to use it, a 9mm would have a better chance of saving his life.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

If he is determined to buy the 22 he'll need a lot of practice so he becomes a very good shot. I agree the 22 is a good first gun and I bet once he gets into it "it won't be the last gun he needs". You can shoot with him and challenge him to matches to see who buys the brewiski's when you are finished.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> ...but in the event he'd need to use it, a 9mm would have a better chance of saving his life.


Agreed, but it's _his_ life. If he's content with a .22 after you've presented him with the other options, let him have at it and don't pressure him. People have to come to their own balance point with their carry guns.

I am not thrilled that my wife carries in a purse, but I am glad she carries a gun. I keep my mouth shut.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

TerryP said:


> If he is determined to buy the 22 he'll need a lot of practice so he becomes a very good shot. I agree the 22 is a good first gun and I bet once he gets into it "it won't be the last gun he needs". You can shoot with him and challenge him to matches to see who buys the brewiski's when you are finished.


He doesn't want the P22 because it's a .22LR. He wants it because it's small and easily concealable. If we could find him a 9mm that was somewhat equal in size, he might choose that. A PPK/S in .380ACP would be a bad option.

I like the idea of making him buy me the drinks every time. I'm actually more accurate with my P99 than my P22.


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## PanaDP (Jul 20, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> A PPK/S in .380ACP would be a bad option.


Huh? That seems like a fine option, actually. Let me know if he might be interested in a PPK. I'm selling a blued one in .380.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

PanaDP said:


> Huh? That seems like a fine option, actually. Let me know if he might be interested in a PPK. I'm selling a blued one in .380.


Certainly: if he wants a pocket pistol, the PPK is even smaller overall than the P22, and .380 is a far more effective defense load than .22. I'd certainly look hard at a PPK as a pocket pistol for CCW. I personally would prefer the 9mm cartridge over .380 though; the extra oomph would give the bullet the penetration a 9mm-diameter round needs, and it's a more substantial bullet weight that gives you all the options for expansion etc. I'm decently sure Walther has a 9x19mm version of this design, but haven't found it.


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

there is no 9mm ppk
the ppk is smaller than the P22
the ppk is smaller than the ppk/s in height
I own a P22 and love it and it has the walther laser sight - 

since it is his first gun - get the 22
if he gets the keltec 3AT he won't practice with it very much


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Liko81 said:


> Certainly: if he wants a pocket pistol, the PPK is even smaller overall than the P22, and .380 is a far more effective defense load than .22. I'd certainly look hard at a PPK as a pocket pistol for CCW. I personally would prefer the 9mm cartridge over .380 though; the extra oomph would give the bullet the penetration a 9mm-diameter round needs, and it's a more substantial bullet weight that gives you all the options for expansion etc. I'm decently sure Walther has a 9x19mm version of this design, but haven't found it.


... There ya go.. Sell him on the PPK if he's a Bond fan. Right, Moneypenny. :smt033










But seriously, it's also a proven long-run pistol that's been out there since Roger Moore or maybe even Sean himself was doing Bond flicks.. After all the flack they got because Bond originally carried a Beretta.  Looks like a fabulous carry gun... Correction: For 75 years per Walther's page.. Developed in 1931!










That new PPS looks like an Awesome pocket gun as well..









... In 9MM!!

Actually, I agree that if he's set on the .22, at least he'll have something, in which case I can imagine in just about all cases, something is better than nothing.. Even poorly aimed hits with a .22 would sting pretty darn good I'd bet, enough to deter about anyone unless they're cracked out.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Go to a gun range that rents .22 and 9mm.

Get a piece of leather. Fold it in half. Then fold it again. 

Hang the leather in front of your target, leaving at least an inch space and shoot it at 7 yards with the .22

Replace target paper and shoot again with the 9mm.

Then ask your buddy if he only plans on defending himself against naked people.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Sorry guys, that was a typo. I meant to say a PPK in a .380ACP *wouldn't* be a bad option. .380ACP sure packs more of a punch than a .22LR. Never held one, but they sure are snazzy looking guns, and super concealable according to dimensions. He DID at one point mention getting a 1911...apparently his friend has one. I said, "yeah they're a steadfast gun, but if you think the P22 feels good in your hand, the 1911 is gonna be way too big, and you're not gonna like the kick." He's not a real strong dude, he's about 5'9" and probably 110 pounds.

Pana hamananah, PM me about the PPK. If my roommate isn't interested I might pick it up instead.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

WOW That PPS look great. I like the P22 design just not the caliber.
I'm wondering why no one has suggested the Beretta Model 84 - Cheetah? My dad has a PPK/S which I have shot a whole lot more than he has. It is a great little gun but definitely too small for me, the slide is so close to the dovetail it cuts my hand if I'm not careful. I am not a *total *noob to guns but I will be buying my first handgun soon and if I didn't feel so strong about having a .45 in the house first and foremost I would be buying the Cheetah. Feels great in my hand, very concealable but not too small.

FYI - I'm going with the XD45 Compact 4". I like everything about it, but I know in a year or three (or two or five, who knows) I will be ready and wanting to have something more concealable and unless I learn something I don't now know about the 84 or something better comes out it will almost definitely be my second handgun.

First post here BTW. Great place to learn, seems most people here appreciate their guns for the little engineering marvels they are rather than something to show off. There are so many things in this world to be amazed by not the least of which is that we have gone from throwing rocks at maybe 50-80mph to throwing little chunks of metal at thousands of fps. If someone from the VERY distant past were here today they would think we were ALL magicians!

Ben


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

themayer78 said:


> First post here BTW...If someone from the VERY distant past were here today they would think we were ALL magicians!


Welcome aboard!

I think it was Heinlein who wrote that, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

And speaking of advancing technology, I personally no longer see the point in the big .380s like the Beretta 84. There are several 9mms and .40s smaller than those guns. I'd much rather have the more powerful gun.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Sorry guys, that was a typo. I meant to say a PPK in a .380ACP


Honestly - While I am a super Walther Fanatic - the current PPKs seem to be very spotty. It's almost a roll of the dice from all the complaints I have read over the past couple of years. Unless U find a used one and they will let ya try it out first, I personally would look for another 380.

I had a Bersa 380 that I sold to my mother. Works great - looks like a Sig 232.

The Beretta Cheetahs are also awesome.

The problem with 380 ammo is that it costs as much as 40 cal. 9mm is cheaper.


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## themayer78 (Jan 23, 2008)

> speaking of advancing technology, I personally no longer see the point in the big .380s like the Beretta 84. There are several 9mms and .40s smaller than those guns. I'd much rather have the more powerful gun.


Very good point, I have just been in love with the 84 for years since I first saw it. Have you held the HK P30 yet? It is a masterpiece, although I say that w/o having shot it. It feels better than probably any gun I have ever held.

I read alot of Heinlein when I was younger, I REALLY enjoyed his work.

Mike, I have read several of your posts as well as Ship's, I have some questions for you guys that know more than the rest of us but I don't want to hijack this thread. I will post in the General Semi-Auto spot later today.

FiveHourFrenzy, if money is not a factor then tell him to get 3-4 guns so he can carry what he likes according to his mood. But if he is just absolutely stuck on the P22 well then he's got to start somewhere. This reminds me of when I used to sell motorcycles in Florida. Occasionally I would get a guy who would INSIST on buying a Ninja-*250!!* for his first bike because he had no experience and wanted to crawl before he walked. Sometimes I could talk enough sense into him not to waste his money on the immediate depreciation, the other times I got to tell someone "I told you so". It was never more than 2-3 months before they were tired of riding a glorified scooter.

If your friend insists on buying a P22 first, great, he needs to learn all the basics of safety, maintenance, etc. anyways. He should be aware though that if he takes a real interest in shooting he will want more and probably very soon.

Ben


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## XD_Hokie (Dec 29, 2007)

Kel-Tec PF-9 would be great and not break the bank of a 21 year old. Easy to tinker on and learn about guns, 9mm, and will handle +P for limited use. He can learn and not risk much if he messes something up tinkering and Kel-Tec has a lifetime warranty, and great customer service if he has problems with it, and *we all know it will not be his last firearm purchase.*:smt023


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

The problem with those little Keltec 9mms is that they are not fun to shoot at all. A lot of recoil.

I think that if he wants to have fun with a gun AND use it for self defense - he needs to find a midsize gun - Glock 19/Walther P99 size. They have 4" barrels, but the grips are not huge like some of the larger semi autos.

That will afford him fun at the range and usable for self defense


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

He did mention Glocks. It wasn't because of their ability to shoot underwater Mike, but he's done some reading and would like to at least hold one and see how it feels. He also wants something pretty compact, so I've suggested the G26 and G27. He's considering a .45ACP, which is kind of on the opposite spectrum of the .22LR, but I told him that the recoil and cost of ammo wouldn't do him very well. And like we've all read a thousand times, a smaller caliber that is easier for someone to shoot and actually hits on target does a whole lot better than a big and bad .45 that misses. I actually wouldn't mind test firing a G26 and G27. The only Glock I held was a G17, and I shouldn't condemn all Glocks for feeling like 2x4s based on one model. He held my P99c the other night and commented on what a small gun it was. I assured him there are smaller ones out there that can pack just as much of a punch.

I've also told him to look at the compact and sub-compact Baby Eagles, and possibly some revolvers if he wants to go with something super small. He's into high-tech stuff though, so I doubt he'll be getting a revolver. I'm sure he'd much rather prefer an autoloader. And as most 21-year olds are, he'll want one that looks cool. I realize that shouldn't be a priority, but when you're young and stupid like we are, it sneaks up into higher ranks on importance than it should. My Walther sure is a beauty, but I would never have bought a gun that did not feel right in my hand.

I think I just need to take him to Bud's with me to shoot, let him get the feel of shooting with my P22, and take it from there.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Ok I will mention it since no-one else has. Although the costs have come up some, the Makarov pistols are nice. Tuff, Shoot well, and are (or at least have been) inexpensive. Comfortable to shoot and still small. Some drawbacks (European style mag release) some benefits (Really accurate, inexpensive, avail in .380 and 9x18). 
I just attended a tactical pistol course and used my friend's Makarov (he has 2 and learned to shoot when he was in Russia during college years.) My Officers .45 was left here at home while i flew 5 states away to attend the course with him. Overall i was quite impressed and am now looking for one. But my point is, look (and think) creatively.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

It's not really an issue anymore. I mentioned a PPK to him and all I got was, "Dude, I'm not gonna get a gun. Just give me the combination to your safe so I can use your gun when you're not home."

Yes, he really did say that. And no, he's not getting the combination. He said he didn't have any money, yet he comes home from every night shift he works bragging about how much he made...his income per week is probably $300-400, yet he says he has no money. I think it's because he spends every last penny on Xbox360 games, most recently Rock Band, and I'm about sick and tired of his buddies coming over and playing the virtual drums at 2am.

I think the way we spend our money is a bit different. I spend mine on my car, my puppy, guns, tattoos, snowboarding, fishing, camping, good healthy food, guitars (real guitars, not that guitar hero BS), and top-of-the-line face wash.

He spends his on random girls at bars who give him nothing in return for free drinks (he'll learn eventually), little flat screen TVs to mount on his wall, every new DVD that comes out, and freezer food because God bless his heart, the kid cannot cook anything other than mac&cheese.

We have different priorities, which is fine. He was psyched about being able to get a handgun. Now he probably wouldn't take one of it was given to him.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Most "problems" like this resolve themselves. Sounds like he's not ready for a gun, and maybe he never will be. Lots of young guys just think the idea of carrying a gun is cool, and flirt with it a little. Eventually, they realize it is basically a giant pain in the butt, expensive, and limits some leisure time activities. Then they forget about it.

Not knocking the guy. I spent a lot of money on pretty girls in bars when I was young, too. :mrgreen:


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I've flirted with it, gone on a few dates, and hooking up will definitely take place once my CCDW paperwork shows up. I wonder what's taking so long...

I'm not trying to knock him, but it's hard not to. Halo 2 is cool and all, but instead of getting awesome with a make-believe super mega death ray atomic nuclear fireball alien zapper, I'd rather have an actual firearm, train with it, get good with it, get really good with it, and have it just in case my life ever depends on it. I mentioned hunting to him and he expressed a bit of interest as he considers himself an outdoorsman, but the kind that doesn't like to get his hands dirty or get rained on. I told him he could get a decent bolt action rifle for $500 or so, and he brought up the money issue. I told him he'd be working more in the summer, and if he made an extra $100 from a single shift at his work, he'd have enough in five weeks. I don't really think he'd ever get into hunting though, he's a full-blown city boy. I've honestly never met someone who refused to do dishes or take out the trash because it's "dirty." I'm putting words in his mouth to an extent, but he won't do either, and it's not laziness because he's not lazy.

Fortunately my best friend is moving in with me in August, and he's a bit more country than my current roommate. He can't fish, pitch a tent, or start a fire worth d*ck, but he does like to hunt.



Mike Barham said:


> Not knocking the guy. I spent a lot of money on pretty girls in bars when I was young, too. :mrgreen:


I let the others spend their money...once they're good and drunk I take them home. Lol, not really, but for some reason my ex-g/f gets all the free drinks she wants from random dudes, calls me to come pick her up, __________________________________, then I take her home in the morning. The last time she was here I handed her my completely unloaded P99, told her it was loaded, and had to catch it as she literally threw it at me. I assured her it was unloaded, racked the slide to prove it, then handed it back to her. Watching her try to hold it out in front of her was probably the funniest thing I've ever seen. She's never held a gun in her life.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> The last time she was here I handed her my completely unloaded P99, told her it was loaded, and had to catch it as she literally threw it at me. I assured her it was unloaded, racked the slide to prove it, then handed it back to her. Watching her try to hold it out in front of her was probably the funniest thing I've ever seen. She's never held a gun in her life.


No one knows how to hold a gun until they are shown. I get a bigger kick out of the pics of gunwriters who have no idea how to hold a pistol.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

That's true, but she's the typical girl who had no idea whatsoever. I'll try to describe it in case you're feeling humorous. Hold the grip lightly, as if you were holding your scrodum...lean in in 45 degrees, or halfway between upright and the ghetto way (sideways)...now bend your elbow to 135 degrees. :mrgreen: I got a kick out of it. She wants to learn to shoot though, so one of these days I'll take her with me and set her up on the P22.


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## glock27bill (Dec 29, 2007)

You HAVE made certain he's taken a gun safety and/or conceal carry class, haven't you?

This should be Step 1, shopping for a gun is Step 2.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

He hasn't. That was gonna be part of the picture if he decided to get one, but he's not. He'd rather spend his money on cheap beer and video games. Fine by me. If he doesn't feel the need to purchase a firearm, train with it, and carry it legally, then he shouldn't. I guess if someone ever breaks in it's up to me to hold the stairway down while he calls the cops.


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