# Carry on college campuses?



## dbarnett0311

I am a Tennessee resident who frequently has to be on college campuses, and it is not legal to carry when on any school property here. Currently there is a debate emerging among students and faculty who have permits and want to carry due to this years publicity regarding campus shootings. The current emergency plan is linked through cell phones of all students and faculty, which notifies them to stay put and lock the classroom/office doors when a warning is active. What do you think? Should permit holders be allowed to carry on campus, and if so how would you suggest getting it passed?


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## BeefyBeefo

Absolutely. I went to the University of Iowa and they had the same alert system that would call you and send you an e-mail. As always, there are glitches, and the system can't simultaneously call 25,000 students _plus_ the faculty to "alert" them. Not only that, but once you get the alert, that means something has already happened.

Colorado State University allows carry for permit holders on its campus, and I think that's how it should be everywhere.

-Jeff-


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## kev74

The only way to convince government to do anything is to make them think their jobs are on the line. And the way to do that is to motivate enough people to lobby their representatives - letters, phone calls, emails, etc. 

If you haven't done so already, join the organizations that share a similar interest, like the NRA, Second Amendment Foundation, Students for Concealed Carry. The more people who back this cause, the more likely it is to get passed. :smt023


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## tekhead1219

BeefyBeefo said:


> Absolutely. I went to the University of Iowa and they had the same alert system that would call you and send you an e-mail. As always, there are glitches, and the system can't simultaneously call 25,000 students _plus_ the faculty to "alert" them. Not only that, but once you get the alert, that means something has already happened.
> 
> Colorado State University allows carry for permit holders on its campus, and I think that's how it should be everywhere.
> 
> -Jeff-


+1....can't say it any better than this.:smt023


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## TOF

I don't plan on going back to school but I'm with you on this subject.


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## kg333

I think they absolutely should. We've got the exact same cell phone alert system down here at UK, and it's done no good whatsoever. We've had a kidnapping and a couple gun incidents where an alert never went out or went out hours after the incident. When the county was under a tornado warning, they didn't get the alert out on cells until _after_ the tornado had passed. The chances of them getting a warning out in time for an active shooter are zilch, frankly. :smt076

If you want to help support this particular issue, I'd recommend joining Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. They focus their efforts specifically on this issue alone so as to have the widest possible base, and sometimes do "empty holster" protests on campuses to show support.

http://www.concealedcampus.org/
Also on Facebook
http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2383535699&ref=ts

KG


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## usmamg

Since CCW holders have been investigated and cleared they are "safe and sane" to have weapons. I see no difference between a university or a large shopping mall. Perhaps if there was a CCW holder in the right place and time at one of the university incidents, the outcome would have been much different.


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## Todd

I think CCW should be allowed on any school property. If someone is going to go on a shooting rampage, a sign or law or rule is not going to stop them. The only people that this law affects is the law-abiding ones.


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## Steve M1911A1

Permit holders should be allowed to carry _anywhere_.
Do we prohibit people with driver's licenses from driving on certain public roads?
The state has "vetted" us, and says that we're safe with a car and safe with a gun. Differentiating between the two kinds of permit is at least silly, and could be life-endangering.


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## meatman

Daughter goes to FSU
3 rapes in the last week
need I say more


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## kev74

And, getting back to the original post, 


> ...and if so how would you suggest getting it passed?


Any suggestions? :watching:


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## tboone

I'm the campus leader for Students for Concealed Carry at 1 school (my primary college) and the de facto leader at another (where I take some classes). Just last week there was a gun fired in the dorms at my non-primary college. Fortunately/somehow no one was hit, but an email was sent out several days later, and no text/call was sent. Several weeks ago, several students were shot and killed at Central Arkansas University (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/27/central-arkansas-universi_n_138033.html).

Obviously, violence does not stop at the college entrance sign, and neither should rights. The mentally ill, criminals, and any with bad intentions can easily come onto campus and cause all sorts of violence (no need to provide examples, plenty are well known); there is no imaginary difference between a college campus and the "real world."

I have taken recently to having my P3AT holster on me at all times when disarmed on campus, both in case violence, God forbid, were to ever happen so I (or my family) could say that a CCW permit holder could have made a difference but also to be able to tell people who I discuss the topic with that "I have a holster on me, and if I were armed, it obviously has not created any distractions from academics nor caused disturbances. No one has ever noticed it, or my gun when off campus, on me. It is obvious that anyone can easily carry a firearm on campus, so it only makes sense to allow those who have been properly vetted to be allowed the same right to self-protection they are anywhere else." Obviously, there are many more arguments supporting CCW on college campuses and I am ready to discuss these as well, but even just these examples are some basic things to discuss with people about.


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## Double0

As a University of Florida student (GO GATORS!) I would NEVER advocate that someone break the laws and carry on campus, but I will say this, how important is your life to you?


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## Todd

Double0 said:


> I would NEVER advocate that someone break the laws and carry on campus, but I will say this, how important is your life to you?


Yet you're subtly alluding to it.

A reminder to all, do *not* go down the road of discussing illegal carry here. This is a "no tolerance" rule and nothing good will come from a post discussing it. This is a good thread, let's keep it on track.


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## BeefyBeefo

Nevermind...


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## Double0

Was implying that we push to make it legal, sorry for the lack of clarification.


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## funkypunk97

Everyone should hear the story of the kid from Virginia Tech who was 20-feet from the gunman but did NOT have his CCW on him because he is a law abiding citizen....instead his gun was off campus in his apartment.

I saw the kid on TV just about crying while telling his story of how he could have stopped this killer cold and saved probably 20+ lives since his was one of the first rooms the killer stalked. 

The kid was hunkered behind a desk, watching his friends and classmates die, waiting for it to be his turn. But for some reason the killer missed him and moved on. 

And there is at least one other story exactly like this, a professor on the other side of the building has a CCL but did not have his CCW with him because again, he's a law abiding citizen...... 

Students are literally sitting ducks on every campus in America. Since on most not even the campus security can be armed. And of course any psycho knows this.......


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## Double0

Priorities are a wonderful thing


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## Black Metal

Here in Utah we already can!


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## tboone

Drew_Rami_P said:


> Here in Utah we already can!


I don't think you have any idea how jealous I am...


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## BeefyBeefo

I see a vote for "No" is there a reasoning behind this vote?

-Jeff-


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## Double0

I think he didn't understand the question. Its like those trident commericals where they say 4 out of 5 dentists like it and then the 5th dentist gets bit by a squirrel which causes him to scream no. Same thing.


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## bprince04305

Drew_Rami_P said:


> Here in Utah we already can!


+1 im jealous


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## Todd

BeefyBeefo said:


> I see a vote for "No" *is there a reasoning behind this vote?*
> 
> -Jeff-


Troll.


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## BeefyBeefo

:anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## bprince04305

Ok guys i got a question(DONT GET TOO UPSET WITH ME). Let me say this first, i agree with carry on campus, but what do u think will happen if a maniac is shooting up a big school (2500 + students), and students also have guns. Lets say out of 2500 students you have 20 students with ccw, you dont think it would make the situation worst?


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## Todd

bprince04305 said:


> Ok guys i got a question(DONT GET TOO UPSET WITH ME). Let me say this first, i agree with carry on campus, but what do u think will happen if a maniac is shooting up a big school (2500 + students), and students also have guns. Lets say out of 2500 students you have 20 students with ccw, you dont think it would make the situation worst?


Provided the students that have guns don't go all "Rambo" and try to hunt the guy down, but instead stay put and protect themselves and the people around them, then no, I don't see a problem. I see a potential problem if any of them do try to hunt the guy down (whether individually or in a group), especially with weapons drawn, because the local LEO's arriving on the scene will only know "Student with a gun" and may take down the wrong person. Same goes with one CCW student taking down another CCW student. However, this "problem" is not limited to schools only. Multiple CCW people can be on the scene in the general public as this recent thread discusses http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=16435

Long story short, if you have a CCW, prudence is the best action.


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## kg333

bprince04305 said:


> Ok guys i got a question(DONT GET TOO UPSET WITH ME). Let me say this first, i agree with carry on campus, but what do u think will happen if a maniac is shooting up a big school (2500 + students), and students also have guns. Lets say out of 2500 students you have 20 students with ccw, you dont think it would make the situation worst?


At that ratio, you would maybe have one or two people carrying in the shooter's area. By the time the others heard about it, the cops would likely be on scene and it'd probably be over. Big schools are spread over a large area, and you'd probably end up with a shooter moving from classroom to classroom of 100 students max. I'd be surprised if anyone carrying even saw each other.

KG


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## Double0

No it would not make the situation worse, the individual walks into the front of the classroom, and it becomes a firing squad on him. Problem solved.


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## dbarnett0311

I think it is important to remember that a CCW permit holder does not have legal right to be a LEO and chase anyone for anything. Also, as a CCW permit holder it is well defined in the wording of state codes that a weapon of any kind must be used in a strictly defensive manner. It must be proven that the actions taken by the individual(s) were not excessive in any way, and each round is justifiable when it leaves the barrel. Any action outside of these parameters is illegal on or off campus, and that is why I feel that I should be able to defend myself in the same way on as I do off campus, by carrying a firearm in a concealed posture that is available to me should a situation arise. I am not Rambo, I am a citizen who chooses to carry a gun on me at all times where I am legally able so that if an incident were to arise where I needed a firearm I would not become a statistic...... Just my .02 contribution.


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## vrodcruiser

Had this discussion with a grade school teacher (anti-gun). Surprisingly after clarifying that we were talking about college she said absolutely you should be able to carry on campus and she was surprised that you can not. 
She doesn't want people to be able to carry on grade school campuses though.
This led to that circular argument that if someone intends to use a gun at a school they are not worried about being charged for carrying on campus. 

I am in Tennessee so let me know what we can do to help. I will watch for the issue on the ballot till then.


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## rccola712

im a junior at school in north carolina, and until recently, ive been torn on this issue, and still am to a certain degree, but leaning more toward legalizing it. i can certainly see the benefits to allowing carry concealed on campus, but ive always been torn because of the potential confusion it could cause for LEOs. would LEO's be able to tell the difference between a gunman and someone who is carrying concealed and had to draw their weapon?


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## Black Metal

rccola712 said:


> im a junior at school in north carolina, and until recently, ive been torn on this issue, and still am to a certain degree, but leaning more toward legalizing it. i can certainly see the benefits to allowing carry concealed on campus, but ive always been torn because of the potential confusion it could cause for LEOs. would LEO's be able to tell the difference between a gunman and someone who is carrying concealed and had to draw their weapon?


Anyone that would chose to carry on campus legally has already decided it is a risk they are willing to take. If its not an acceptable risk to you, then don't carry. Carry in all public schools including k-12 is legal in Utah. In fact most teachers can get firearm training as well as CFP training for free.


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## kg333

rccola712 said:


> im a junior at school in north carolina, and until recently, ive been torn on this issue, and still am to a certain degree, but leaning more toward legalizing it. i can certainly see the benefits to allowing carry concealed on campus, but ive always been torn because of the potential confusion it could cause for LEOs. would LEO's be able to tell the difference between a gunman and someone who is carrying concealed and had to draw their weapon?


That's a universal CC issue, not a campus-specific one. A person that chooses to carry knows there is an inherent risk of being mistakenly shot by the police, and if they're smart, makes sure they behave in a way to minimize that risk.



> Carry in all public schools including k-12 is legal in Utah.


Really? I don't think that's the norm in most states...I know here in Kentucky K-12 are definitely off limits, and KY is considered one of the most gun-friendly states.

KG


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## Black Metal

Well I should clarify, carry with a permit is legal in all public schools. Open carry is also legal here without any permit as long as the gun is unloaded (Utah state law says that two empty chambers in a revolver and empty chamber in a semi auto is considered unloaded) but there are tons of places where its not permitted, schools and public transportation being a couple.


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## SwooshOnLn

ill throw my .02 in:


First off cool forum. Ill be on here a lot. But to the OP, I am all for guns, and permits to conceal, but allowing students to carry guns on campus is stupid. 

Lets look at it like this: the last thing you want when you have a crazy psycho on campus shooting, is another shooter (albeit good or bad). Now, yes it would help out the situation if say a student or teacher had a gun to try to neutralize the shooter, but who's to say hes/shes not going to miss and shoot a innocent bystander? Does everybody with a concealed permit know how to shoot a target? Under pressure? No. The last thing you want is two or three students with guns shooting off shots blindly from wherever they are. Sure, they can hit the target, but they can just as easily shoot somebody else. 

With that said, when police/swat/whoever do arrive, how will they be able to immediately tell the students from the psycho? They can't. There will be no time for "YOU GOT THE WRONG GUY ITS THAT GUY OVER THERE!!".

If anybody should be allowed, it should be at MOST the teachers. But then you can say "well the bad guys will just go for the teachers first," which might be true, but you got to draw a line from when something goes from "controllable" to just a "uncontrollable tragedy."

The bottom line is allowing guns on campus would be frightening to a lot of people, and when a tragedy does actually happen, could possible turn out worse then if nobody was armed.



Then again a well placed shot from a student would save lives. But what are the chances? I mean really? Like I said, I am all for guns and concealed permits, but a college campus is not a place for guns. Metal detectors in front of every door on campus would do worlds more for the students then letting students arm themselves. Bottom line.


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## Willy D

I think if it were known that a campus HAD CCW then the likelyhood of a fellow student or someone from the public opening fire could go down because if that person knew that the people he/she was gonna target might shoot back, they might not do it...

It is kinda like someone going into a place and shooting it up where CCW is illegal, the shooter knows they can get away with shooting and killing with a very unlikely chance they will be shot from people there...

If a college had random armed people on campus and it was known, a person would be less likely to go in shooting....I would not be opposed to there being certain requirements for students who do want to legally carry on campus (like a legit training course in gun handling, shooting AND the legality issues)..

My oldest son is a college sophomore. Untill I went to his campus the first year he went there, I did not realize how easy it is for someone from the public to park there and walk into almost every building without even being questioned...Kinda scary

Willy


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## SaltyDog

SwooshOnLn said:


> ill throw my .02 in:
> 
> .


Thanks for your .02 worth

Here's mine

_"Lets look at it like this: the last thing you want when you have a crazy psycho on campus shooting, is another shooter (albeit good or bad). Now, yes it would help out the situation if say a student or teacher had a gun to try to neutralize the shooter, but who's to say hes/shes not going to miss and shoot a innocent bystander?"_

The CCW holder has a responsibility of maintaining his/her shooting skills. I go to the range weekly to maintain my accuracy from the draw and at distances up to 15 yards. I have taken advanced combat courses, more for the fun of it, to prepare for the chance that a gun battle may breakout. Believe you me I would take a bullet before accidentally shooting an innocent bystander. Taking the life of any human being should not be taken lightly but if it is my life or the bad guy's life - it will be the bad guy every time.

_"Does everybody with a concealed permit know how to shoot a target? Under pressure? No. The last thing you want is two or three students with guns shooting off shots blindly from wherever they are. Sure, they can hit the target, but they can just as easily shoot somebody else."_

Yes everyone with a CCW do know how to shoot and hit a target. The classes required by law - in Ohio - require a class instructed by a qualified NRA instructor. The instructors do not hand out their certificates just for attending class. If a shooting does occur with a student from a CCW class the instructor could be held liable for their actions.

_"The bottom line is allowing guns on campus would be frightening to a lot of people, and when a tragedy does actually happen, could possible turn out worse then if nobody was armed."_

Only to the liberal media.

_"Then again a well placed shot from a student would save lives."_

Absolutely

_"Like I said, I am all for guns and concealed permits, but a college campus is not a place for guns. Metal detectors in front of every door on campus would do worlds more for the students then letting students arm themselves. Bottom line"_

Who is going to pay for the metal detectors? Where do you put them? The last time I went to college there are many ways to enter a building and many buildings. Then if the metal detector went off who is going to check and see what set it off? They don't work at Elementary and High Schools - kids as young as 8 years old are caught with weapons. Also who says the bad guy is going to go into a building anyway? Maybe he'll start a shooting on the campus grounds?

I'm not sure where you get the impression that a person with a CCW will just wildly shoot in the general direction of gun fire. Remember as someone has already stated the CCW is for defensive purposes not offensive. I am not going to chase down a guy with a gun or aimlessly take pot shots at them. All of the CCW holders that I know are responsible, law abiding, accurate shooters.

So let's say I'm a criminal and psycho killer with some intelligence (if there is such a combination) Where am I going to go to commit crimes? Why the places that don't allow conceal carry of course! Schools, stores with no carry signs in the windows etc.

Ohio does not allow conceal carry on campus but they are making headways as they do now allow a CCW to bring the weapon to school but it has to be locked in the vehicle. Hopefully they will come to their senses and allow conceal carry on campus.:smt001


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## bprince04305

With that said, when police/swat/whoever do arrive, how will they be able to immediately tell the students from the psycho? They can't. There will be no time for "YOU GOT THE WRONG GUY ITS THAT GUY OVER THERE!!".


The bottom line is allowing guns on campus would be frightening to a lot of people, and when a tragedy does actually happen, could possible turn out worse then if nobody was armed.




Just to again add my .02 cents. The extra training would be a must do, and I also feel that if a person were to conceal carry on campus they would probably also need to give up the whole right of running out of the building. I know that seems unreasonable however a crazed gun men, and another, or even multiple students running around with guns in there hands is going to make the situation worst. The reason I believe this is I’ve been reading some of the articles that the cops that were involved in these active shooter type situations leave, and there basically saying when they entire the building there usually not identifying themselves (tactical reasons of course), and having a few more people running around with guns is going to give away a cops tactical advantage of “I see the guy first put him down”. Obviously you don’t want to create a situation where the cop has to first think is this the wrong guy, and what not. I know some off you probably wont agree with that, but that’s my .02 cents.:smt1099


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## Willy D

If I was at a store or a mall and somebody started shooting, the last thing I would do is pull my gun from it's holster and move around with it in my hand for those very same reasons...First things first...if there is a shooting I would make sure the people who were with me (if I wasn't alone) were located by me and then I would look for the nearest available exit and get myself and them out alive and un harmed first and foremost...I would do that without ever unholstering a weapon...Now...If I were to be by myself, my first train of thought is to leave the situation and get to safety without ever unholstering a weapon...as I am doing this I am looking and listening to see if I can identify who is shooting and where they are...if the person with the weapon invades my safety space and I feel I will be shot it would be then and only then that I would draw my weapon to shoot and I would make damn sure the person I shot at was the one who was initiating the shooting and that I could hit the target and not someone else...

The same goes for a college campus....if you are a responsible CCW person who knows these things, the first thought should be to get yourself to safety and the others around you...if you are inside of a classroom, you stay there..you get on the cell phone and you call the police..if possible you try to give info to them about what is happening and WHERE it is happening...You would probably come up with a plan on how to barricade yourself and the others in the classroom to stay safe. if the gunman comes into your safety space and is attempting to shoot you or someone in there, you draw when you should and you shoot what you hit...If you do not have that person in your space, weapon stays concealed and you communicate with police...You don't call your other buddies who carry and form a posse and go on the prowl...

it can be no different on a college campus as it would be in any other public place...you have to act responsibly and within the law...people in a shopping mall that have this happen and they draw and go on the offensive are bound to get shot by police or another armed legal CCW person...That is why you DO NOT do that....You carry for defense, not for offense..

Willy


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## BT2Flip

HOWEVER IN THIS AREA...Massachusetts to be exact 
to have a gun anywhere Near a school of any kind ...gets you automatic time in the slammer


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## kg333

bprince04305 said:


> Just to again add my .02 cents. The extra training would be a must do, and *I also feel that if a person were to conceal carry on campus they would probably also need to give up the whole right of running out of the building*. I know that seems unreasonable however a crazed gun men, and another, or even *multiple students running around with guns in there hands is going to make the situation worst*. The reason I believe this is I've been reading some of the articles that the cops that were involved in these active shooter type situations leave, and there basically saying when they entire the building there usually not identifying themselves (tactical reasons of course), and having a few more people running around with guns is going to give away a cops tactical advantage of "I see the guy first put him down". *Obviously you don't want to create a situation where the cop has to first think is this the wrong guy*, and what not. I know some off you probably wont agree with that, but that's my .02 cents.:smt1099


Emphasis added by me to the quote.

Alright, first off: Give up the right to retreat because you're carrying a gun? As stated by several others already, concealed weapons are a defensive, not an offensive measure. If a CCW holder gets word that there's an active shooter in another part of the building, they're going to follow directions and get out just like everyone else, not go hunting. The idea that they aren't allowed the right to leave a hazardous area like everyone else is unenforceable.

Second: As also stated by several others, CCW holders are not going to start running around with drawn weapons. The only time you would see their weapon in that situation would be if they're actually engaged and shooting at the BG. Which leads to my last point:

If I remember correctly, it was stated on this forum not long ago that cops are already trained in general to expect that there may be armed civilians in a situation, and that it will be fairly obvious who the perpetrators are. The BGs will be shooting into the crowd and attempt to fire upon responding officers, while armed civilians, if any, will be returning fire at the BG only.

Finally, punctuation and grammar are your friends, and contractions should be used with caution.

KG


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## SaltyDog

bprince04305 said:


> and I also feel that if a person were to conceal carry on campus they would probably also need to give up the whole right of running out of the building. The reason I believe this is I've been reading some of the articles that the cops that were involved in these active shooter type situations leave, and there basically saying when they entire the building there usually not identifying themselves (tactical reasons of course), and having a few more people running around with guns is going to give away a cops tactical advantage of "I see the guy first put him down". Obviously you don't want to create a situation where the cop has to first think is this the wrong guy, and what not. I know some off you probably wont agree with that, but that's my .02 cents.:smt1099


I'm not a LEO - maybe a LEO out there can help with this - and I do not know their tactical maneuvering during a shooting call but I'm sure they do not shoot first and ask questions later. The only time I believe they would fire on a BG unannounced is if their lives, a fellow Officers life. or a citizens life were in danger.

As far as running out of the building I wouldn't have my weapon drawn (common sense) and I would have my hands in the air then announce to the Officer that I have a CCW and a loaded weapon (as required by law in Ohio). I may end up kissing the dirt and be wearing a set of wrist bracelets but I respect the Officers safety in a situation like that.

Also if I were engaged in a gun battle with a BG and I saw guys dressed in black with helmets, SBR's and SWAT or Police on their clothing hollering put down your weapon I would disengage and put down my weapon. That's how they tell the good guys from the bad.

OK this is a lot of situational what-ifs that could apply anywhere as pointed out by Willy D and kg333.

Now let me ask some questions. What makes a college assume they are immune to crime? Do they believe this is a sanctuary of higher learning and that citizens paying (taxes or tuition) to attend should be denied their 2nd Ammendment rights? Or is it that the young adults attending college cannot be trusted to responsibly own and operate a weapon within our current laws? Finally you say you are for CCW and the use of firearms then why is it you *really* do not want CCW on campus? Come on be honest!:smt083


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## BT2Flip

things could "GET OUT OF HAND" at all those frat partys...:anim_lol::smt033


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## bprince04305

Ok forgive me for not explaining on the whole not running out the building thing. What I was meaning is for someone to not be running around, gun unholstered trying to get out of the building. I just feel that, that should be added as a law, not as a common sense thing in order for us to be able to carry guns on campus, etc. As far cops being trained to handle armed civilians while responding to an active shooter call, I would hope they are, however I was just going off some articles that I read a few days earlier.:smt1099


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## bprince04305

Now let me ask some questions. What makes a college assume they are immune to crime? Do they believe this is a sanctuary of higher learning and that citizens paying (taxes or tuition) to attend should be denied their 2nd Ammendment rights? Or is it that the young adults attending college cannot be trusted to responsibly own and operate a weapon within our current laws? Finally you say you are for CCW and the use of firearms then why is it you *really* do not want CCW on campus? Come on be honest!:smt083[/QUOTE]

Personally I am all for ccw any and everywhere. I just also understand (try to anyway) why were not allowed to carry everywhere. I'm in college now, and honestly there are some bone headed people in school. I know we all say well we wouldn't do this, and we wouldn't do that, but it's a different thing when your in the situation, and I can see someone making a bad situation worst. Hopefully I'm wrong cause I sure would feel a lot better going to school if you could ccw, until then I'll say my prayers and call the wife before I go to class.


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## SaltyDog

bprince04305 said:


> Now let me ask some questions. What makes a college assume they are immune to crime? Do they believe this is a sanctuary of higher learning and that citizens paying (taxes or tuition) to attend should be denied their 2nd Ammendment rights? Or is it that the young adults attending college cannot be trusted to responsibly own and operate a weapon within our current laws? Finally you say you are for CCW and the use of firearms then why is it you *really* do not want CCW on campus? Come on be honest!:smt083
> 
> Personally I am all for ccw any and everywhere. I just also understand (try to anyway) why were not allowed to carry everywhere. I'm in college now, and honestly there are some bone headed people in school. I know we all say well we wouldn't do this, and we wouldn't do that, but it's a different thing when your in the situation, and I can see someone making a bad situation worst. Hopefully I'm wrong cause I sure would feel a lot better going to school if you could ccw, until then I'll say my prayers and call the wife before I go to class.


Too funny BT2Flip :smt082

Well the way I figure it is that we have to take baby steps - first they let us CCW and then we push to have the laws revised to allow conceal carry on campus and other places. Be patient.

As far as another law - me I'm against it. We are being confronted every day with more and more laws to forbid or allow something. Case in point seat belts, smoking (I don't smoke by the way), helmets etc. I don't like the government issuing laws they say are to protect me??? The way I figure it I should be able to make those decisions on my own - just give me the info and statistics and leave it at that. If I want to drive my car without a seat belt on it should be up to me to decide.:smt076


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## Naterstein

I think it will cure more than it ails, but only time will tell.


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## BlueGumyBear

I simply believe that everyone has the right to protect themselves. I'm sure the parents of the students who were killed at those college shootings wish that another student was carrying a gun, maybe then their child would still be alive.


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## AdamSC46

I personally think carrying on campus should be legal. Why should your rights be revoked because you decided to pursue a better education for yourself?

As far as the argument about LEOs being confused in a situation on a campus with legal CCW - I believe if I was carrying on campus with a permit and a shooting broke out, I would do everything in my power to avoid the situation. And, as someone else mentioned, I would definitely surrender my weapon and obey all commands if any LEO entered the scene. Cops usually don't shoot people who comply with their orders, whether they're armed or not (unless, apparently, you live in Oakland ). I do also agree that you should assume a certain degree of risk when you apply for a permit. But I would rather take my chances with LEOs (you're talking about a VERY small risk here anyway) than go unprotected.

By the way, I do not have a carry permit. But this is something I plan on pursuing in the very near future (just picked up my first handgun).


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## Waffen

rccola712 said:


> im a junior at school in north carolina, and until recently, ive been torn on this issue, and still am to a certain degree, but leaning more toward legalizing it. i can certainly see the benefits to allowing carry concealed on campus, but ive always been torn because of the potential confusion it could cause for LEOs. would LEO's be able to tell the difference between a gunman and someone who is carrying concealed and had to draw their weapon?


Keep one thing in mind. The CC person if willing to use his/her weapon will most likely stop the threat before the cops even arrive. It may not be as big a concern as you think..

JMO

W


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## will

I am a High School Teacher and believe we should carry with a permit. I think what we may be forgeting is that it is for self-defence. Just because we carry does not make us an LEO. If it were at my school and I were allowed to carry and the administration knew about it, I'm sure they would expect something different from me is something were to happen. 

It does worry me that one day you could be reading about my school in the news. Not just worry but scares me.


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## Enforcer6908

I go to school at Auburn University (War Eagle). I am a responsible 21 year old with a CCL and carry anywhere it's legal. I would love to carry on campus. I can't imagine ever needing here, but I am sure that's what VT students thought too. 

My thing is, the government trust me to carry at the local mall but I can't carry at school. I don't understand that reasoning. Especially with all the school shootings in the recent past. Do I feel safe on campus? Yes. But, I would feel better if I were allowed to carry. 

Like with all crimes, criminals are going to do it even though it is against the law and sometimes our laws hurt law-abiding citizens worse than the criminals. I don't think the law should take away my right to keep living.


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## truman565

Wow good thread. Lots of good ideas being debated.:watching:

Now for my .02. I think that this issue brings up the bigger issue of a CCL in general. There is no consistency in the system. My best friend just got his CCL in Texas and he had to take a 10 hour course. The course consisted of in classroom training on where to carry,where not to carry,the laws concerning deadly force, rules of engagement,etc. They even had to qualify with a weapon by shooting a target and could not pass unless they achieved a certain score.

In contrast here in Alabama I only had to fill out some paper and undergo a background check. O yeah and I had to meet with campus PD so they would know I had a CCL and so they could tell me where not to carry. That is about it. No training and no awareness of the law except for what I seek out and read. Should everyone seek out their state laws and read them? Of course. I am not saying I want things spoon fed to me but my buddy's instructor went over case studies with them. Case studies are priceless. They basically allow you to learn from someone else's mistake and save you a trip to jail. Everyone knows that some laws are black and white and some are horribly gray. 

Bottom line I want to carry on campus. However I think that additional training should be needed for such a thing and moreover I think that many states, such as Alabama, need to require training to get a CCL. Training would be the solutions of so many of the problems listed in this thread. How would the SWAT know who was the bad guy and who was a CCL holder? Wouldn't students just be running around with guns drawn? Would they know to stay put or how to engage? All covered under a good training program.

Who is going to pay for this? How about let gets some of that awesome:anim_lol: stimulus package. That would create some jobs as I am sure more people would need to be hired to assist with all that training and it would make the US a safer place on and off campus. 

Well I am going to stop now. I feel a full out rant coming on.


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## Blanco720

CCW on ALL campuses in my opinion. The more armed individuals, the less criminals will feel they have an edge.


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## USAFgsm

Really good thread. I get a lot from looking at other people's opinions. I agree with some and disagree with some.

I feel that concealed carry should be allowed on campus as well. I was surprised about what truman565 said... how some places you just fill out some paperwork and now you can carry. Here in TN you have to take an 8 hour class and pass a shooting test, and I think it is awesome. I couldn't believe that some people think armed citezens would be running around with guns drawn, but that was before I realized that not everyone who carries has been taught the laws. I like the way they do it here. Anyone (except for felons and other obvious exceptions) can get a permit, but you do have to take a class, learn the laws, and show that you can use a weapon. Everyone has to take a test to get a driver's licence, right?

There seem to be a lot of Tennesseeans in this thread... what schools do you all go to? I go to MTSU :smt023


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## Marcus99

Being as I am in college I believe it should be allowed. I don't fear for my life at school, far from it. However, many of you carry for the same reason I think students should be allowed to carry; you never know what the future holds. Since when were colleges and universites entrusted to permit or restrict the bill of rights? God forbid something goes awry, I want to be able to defend myself.


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## Todd

USAFgsm said:


> I couldn't believe that some people think armed citezens would be running around with guns drawn, but that was before I realized that not everyone who carries has been taught the laws.


So do you think that because someone is from a state that doesn't require a formal class and test, the people are ignorant to the laws? If you do, then by that rationale, since all people have to pass a driver's test, there should be no speeding, illegal turns, DUI, or running of red lights since a test was passed and people know the laws.

There are a lot of people, myself included, that feel that even though people have been taught the laws they will:


Ignore them because they feel they know better than the lawmakers.
Because of the stress of a situation common sense goes right out the window.
They are simply idiots and even though they took a class and "know the laws" think they are there to protect the sheep because they are a CCW holder and laws be damned!
 Here in NC we also have an 8 hour class and a shooting qualification. My class had about 20 people in it and I can easily think 5 people in there either by the fact that they never handled a gun before or because of a very immature attitude throughout the class, have no business carrying a gun in public. But guess what? Everyone passed because the class and the shooting test is a joke. It doesn't take a PhD or any shooting experience to pass a basic gun class. They were teaching us, and it was part of the test, to name the parts of a gun! Jesus, my 6 year old knows most of them! Now if one state had you go through a Gunsite course to get your permit and another had you do nothing, then I might be inclined to agree with you. But as it stands, just because someone's state doesn't require a formal class, don't assume that they are ignorant of the laws or aren't as properly prepared as someone who slept though their state's joke of a class and passed a basic shooting qualification.

There are bunch of guys on this forum who live in states that don't require a formal class. In many cases, I'd much rather have them watching my back because I know they have the experience and common sense than some Rambo who passed a test and therefore should, in theory, know what to do.


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## tekhead1219

Todd said:


> There are a lot of people, myself included, that feel that even though people have been taught the laws they will:
> 
> 
> Ignore them because they feel they know better than the lawmakers.
> Because of the stress of a situation common sense goes right out the window.
> They are simply idiots and even though they took a class and "know the laws" think they are there to protect the sheep because they are a CCW holder and laws be damned!
> 
> There are bunch of guys on this forum who live in states that don't require a formal class. In many cases, I'd much rather have them watching by back because I know they have the experience and common sense than some Rambo who passed a test and therefore should, in theory, know what to do.


+1 Todd...Mainly I have to go with #2 on your list. There are many CHL/CCL holders that never fired a handgun until they took the test. Now they have a license, they're packing, and maybe practice once every couple of months, and never practice drawing from a holster. Now put them in a HIGHLY stressful situation and they'll either forget that they have a handgun, or, end up shooting themselves or a bystander. Not trying to upset anyone here, just stating reality. Just my .02.


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## USAFgsm

Todd said:


> So do you think that because someone is from a state that doesn't require a formal class and test, the people are ignorant to the laws? If you do, then by that rationale, since all people have to pass a driver's test, there should be no speeding, illegal turns, DUI, or running of red lights since a test was passed and people know the laws.


No, I wasn't saying that at all, but now that I re-read what I wrote I see how it can sound that way.

I'm just saying that here we have to be taught the laws, and I did not realize that some places aren't like that. I guess I assumed you had to take a class everywhere, and I know I'm glad I took it because there are laws I know about now that I wouldn't have.

And I know there are a lot of unqualified people carrying guns who took the class, I'm like you, there were plenty in my class that I wish weren't carrying guns. 
But if they paid attention in class, they did get a lot of good info on when deadly force is/isn't authorized, and stuff like that that isn't alwasy as common sense as people assume.

So no I'm not saying I think I'm Rambo by any means because I took the test. I'm just saying that I'm glad I did because I know more than I would have if I didn't have to take the test. And it doesn't make sense to say that you trust people who live in states not requiring tests more... I don't see how that makes them any more informed or experienced. There were plenty of both experienced AND inexperienced people in the class, and I think you'll find that pretty much everywhere.


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## Todd

tekhead1219 said:


> +1 Todd...Mainly I have to go with #2 on your list. There are many CHL/CCL holders that never fired a handgun until they took the test. Now they have a license, they're packing, and maybe practice once every couple of months, and never practice drawing from a holster. Now put them in a HIGHLY stressful situation and they'll either forget that they have a handgun, or, end up shooting themselves or a bystander. Not trying to upset anyone here, just stating reality. Just my .02.


I mainly go with #2 myself, but had to put the others in there since I have seen those ideas expressed here and on other forums in the past.


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## Todd

USAFgsm said:


> And it doesn't make sense to say that you trust people who live in states not requiring tests more... I don't see how that makes them any more informed or experienced.


Here is my direct, unedited quote:



Todd said:


> There are bunch of guys* on this forum* who live in states that don't require a formal class. In many cases, *I'd much rather have them watching my back *because I know they have the experience and common sense than some Rambo who passed a test and therefore should, in theory, know what to do.


Now if you actually read what I wrote, I said I trust some people here on this forum that live in states that do not require a class more than just some guy I don't know that has taken the class. I base that statement from being a member on this forum for a few years now, knowing how guys here have responded to past posts, and what types of training and competition they do. I did _*not*_ make a blanket statement that I trust people who don't have to take a class more than someone who has.


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## MLB

Regardless of who trusts whom on whatever forum, I can see how it would be advantageous to CWL holders to be formally advised of the law. My own required training class was very simplistic. Basic firearm and cartridge identification, and a short exercise on sight picture. Any info I have on case law came from independent research.


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## dbarnett0311

*Been a while since I checked in*

I am glad to see that this has been a useful thread, and many of you have had some great views. I am now the official representative for students for carry at Belmont university... Those of you who feel strongly about this topic might look into who the representative is at your school, and if you are not a student you can call your state officials. Again, keep up the great ideas and opinions...

DBarnett
USMC 0311
International Business 
Belmont University


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## club708

Doing a lot of reading here because this caught my interest. For what it is worth I would think that a CCL holder with a CCW in college would have to have more sence then your average Joe. (they have at least decided to further their education) I don't think that anyone with a CCW is going to openly carry to hunt someone down on campus in the case some crazed psycho is shooting up a school. The only time the CCW should be out is when being used for defence only which everyone with a CCL knows.


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## novacody78

I 100% agree that concealed carry should be allowed on college campuses. As a current college student I wish I could carry on campus. Luckily I have a very good state senator who aggrees with me. There has been alot of talk about this bill in my area. There has been 2 shootings so far this year that has been linked to students at my school. I hope something is done about this issue.


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## mustnggt619

Yes i do believe a ccw should be able to carry anywhere a potential threat could be... Thats anywhere. Like always the more laws and restrictions they put on able and law abiding people the more power the criminals have. LE cant be everywhere so we need to be responsible for our own safety and the safety of other that arent able to protect themselves.


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## Todd

club708 said:


> For what it is worth I would think that a CCL holder with a CCW in college would have to have more sence then your average Joe. (they have at least decided to further their education).


Higher education does not automatically give someone common sense.


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## BeefyBeefo

Todd said:


> Higher education does not automatically give someone common sense.


I agree 100%! I met many individuals in college whom had zero common sense. Book or school sense does not equate to common sense in any way, shape, or form.


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## kg333

Todd said:


> Higher education does not automatically give someone common sense.





BeefyBeefo said:


> I agree 100%! I met many individuals in college whom had zero common sense. Book or school sense does not equate to common sense in any way, shape, or form.


Straw man argument. club708 stated that "a CCL holder with a CCW in college" would have more common sense than "your average Joe", not that anyone in college has more common sense.

Considering that the individuals club708 refers to have gone to the precaution of ensuring they are prepared for the worst, I agree with him that they have more common sense than the "average Joe" who does not.

However, comparison of CCL holders who are in college, versus those CCL holders of the same age who are not, would be an interesting topic. :watching:

KG


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## BeefyBeefo

kg333 said:


> However, comparison of CCL holders who are in college, versus those CCL holders of the same age who are not, would be an interesting topic. :watching:


That's exactly my point. Just because a CCL holder is in college, does not mean that he/she has any more common sense than any other CCL holder.


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## kg333

BeefyBeefo said:


> That's exactly my point. Just because a CCL holder is in college, does not mean that he/she has any more common sense than any other CCL holder.


Fair enough. I know a lot of guys who did trade school or started working after high school who have a lot more gun sense than some of the schmucks running around at my college. To be fair though, I know several guys around here who also have plenty of experience handling firearms. UK has a crazy good rifle team. :smt033

I don't think a college education has much to do with gun safety, which goes back to the starter's original point: If someone has been found to be responsible enough to carry a weapon, there's not really any reason they shouldn't be allowed to carry at college, the same as anywhere else.

KG


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## jdeere9750

As a recent graduate of college, I can (with full confidence) tell you that a college education does not in any way allow a person to have more common sense than anyone else, myself included. :mrgreen:

I am a permit holder, and I do carry whenever possible. Throughout my college years, I would have loved to carry on campus. If it is done correctly and the gun is truly concealed, I don't see that it will not cause problems in the classroom, and it could prevent some of the horror stories we all hear on the news. IMO, I don't think metal detectors, signs, or anything else will stop a gunman. I'm also inclined to disagree with the thought that knowledge of an armed campus would stop a gunman - I put most of them in the same category as terrorists (I don't think they care/they are willing to die anyway.) Just my thoughts.

Also, I agree with some of you in saying that the requirements to get your license should be a lot tougher. In the class that I attended, the instructor practically gave us the answers to the test, and the shooting part was a joke. I did learn a lot about the laws and specifics of carrying, but only because I wanted to. Others in my class were either asleep or playing games on their cell phones the whole time.

End Rant. Sorry. :smt076


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## MLB

I'd say it's a fair argument that college students licensed to carry a handgun are less experienced than the average license holder, but that's mostly due to age. I've learned a lot about life in general since I was 21, and hopefully less likely to make stupid mistakes. ;D


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## kg333

MLB said:


> I'd say it's a fair argument that college students licensed to carry a handgun are less experienced than the average license holder, but that's mostly due to age. I've learned a lot about life in general since I was 21, and hopefully less likely to make stupid mistakes. ;D


Following your argument, then young, inexperienced 21 to 23ish year old citizens shouldn't carry due to their age, regardless of whether they go to college or not.

The problem I'm seeing in all of these "college students are irresponsible partiers" arguments is that it's not an apples to apples argument. Comparing the responsibility of your average (i.e. older) CCW holder with that of frat boys is like comparing the academics of honors students to that of high school dropouts working at Walmart.

If you compare 21-23 year old CCW holders in college with 21-23 year old CCW holders not in college, I very much doubt you would find the ones in college are any less responsible than their workforce counterparts. It's not valid to say to these individuals, who have passed the requirements the state believes necessary for proper handling of a weapon in public, that their privilege is suspended simply because they are in college.

KG


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## MLB

kg333 said:


> Following your argument, then young, inexperienced 21 to 23ish year old citizens shouldn't carry due to their age, regardless of whether they go to college or not.
> 
> <snip>
> KG


You could extend my comments that far, but I didn't, and it doesn't necessarily follow.

I agree with you that there's no reason to think that college student CCW holders are somehow less responsible than those not attending college.

Anyone that is licensed to carry a concealed firearm should be able to carry it anywhere. That being said, I think you can expect younger people to be involved in more "accidents" than older people. It's just a fact that young people are concentrated at colleges.


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## clewis

dbarnett0311 said:


> I am a Tennessee resident who frequently has to be on college campuses, and it is not legal to carry when on any school property here. Currently there is a debate emerging among students and faculty who have permits and want to carry due to this years publicity regarding campus shootings. The current emergency plan is linked through cell phones of all students and faculty, which notifies them to stay put and lock the classroom/office doors when a warning is active. What do you think? Should permit holders be allowed to carry on campus, and if so how would you suggest getting it passed?


I also live in TN and if memory serves me, it is up to the dean if anyone is allowed to carry on campus. I'll see if I can find the rules/regs on this. If you can get enough people on-board, and have a second amendment supporter for a dean, then you might be able to get things changed on your campus.


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## clewis

I've seen more older guys that think they know everything about everything, act a lot more careless at the range than any 21-23 year-old.


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## C-Kicks

Ok what is a LEO? 
I am writing an essay on this topic for my college writing class. My tought behind it is simple.
A CCL gives me the right to carry protection to protect myself. End of discussion.

nobody knows how this situation will turn out if a gunman opens fire on students and there are CCW holders in the room. No matter how long this debate goes on we will not know until the law is changed.

I find it hard to belive that responsible citesens would make the situation worse.


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## Todd

C-Kicks said:


> Ok what is a LEO?


Leo is the fifth astrological sign of the Zodiac, originating from the constellation of Leo. In astrology Leo is considered to be a "masculine", positive(extrovert) sign. The Sun is in Leo roughly from July 23 to August 23.

Seriously, it a cop. * L*aw *E*nforcement *O*fficer.


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## jdeere9750

Todd said:


> Leo is the fifth astrological sign of the Zodiac, originating from the constellation of Leo. In astrology Leo is considered to be a "masculine", positive(extrovert) sign. The Sun is in Leo roughly from July 23 to August 23.


:anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol:


----------



## Todd

C-Kicks said:


> I am writing an essay on this topic for my college writing class. .


You may want to take a look at this.

http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=18442


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## Hills Creek

I had 7 rescue teams at Va Tech on the day of the shooting there. There is no question in my mind that guns should be allowed on campus.


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## macgulley

Our dean started a "Coffee with the Dean" meeting where he met with groups of staff and faculty to talk about what's going on and ask for our input/concerns. I was able to bring up the subject of allowing concealed carry on campus. He didn't really think it was "necessary" but he didn't totally reject it. We had a decent discussion and I think it was a step in the right direction.


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## Pistolero

Time for equal rights for law abiding citizens. Bad guys got guns on campus? Good guys get guns on campus. What's the hold-up?!


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## firefighterwall

I don't think concealed carry on a college campus is anything different than concealed carry in a crowded shopping mall, the local park, or downtown.

What I mean is, the chance for a CCW holder to act in an irresponsible manner is equally there..you can't suddenly say "Oh, it's because they're in college that they're going to act irresponsibly with it."

Obviously if they've taken the required classes and gotten their permits to make their concealed carry legal, it's not like they're a regular college drunkard running around -- I think they've already (to a degree) defined their level of personal responsibility and maturity.

As a Virginia resident (where firearms are illegal on school grounds except under certain situations), I sure wish that someone had been carrying a pistol to pop that bastard that did the Virginia Tech shootings.

Imagine that....psycho decides to go on a rampage and kills maybe one person before a CCW draws on him and blows him away. ONE person's family is sad and crushed, not 20+....and one person is a hero.

Plus, you think that any shooter is gonna try anything there again, seeing what happened to the last dude who tried it?


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## ericridebike

Just curious, anyone know what the rationale is for not being able to carry on campus? I know places that serve alcohol, government buildings, etc... are obvious reasons, but I don't see any "dangers" on campus that are obvious.


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## MLB

firefighterwall said:


> ...
> 
> Imagine that....psycho decides to go on a rampage and kills maybe one person before a CCW draws on him and blows him away. ONE person's family is sad and crushed, not 20+....and one person is a hero.
> ...


I agree with your points, but I'd like to comment that if that "hero" had to be me, there would be at least 2 sad and crushed families. I'm sure taking anyone's life would have a serious and detrimental effect on yours, even if justified.


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## Todd

firefighterwall said:


> Plus, you think that any shooter is gonna try anything there again, seeing what happened to the last dude who tried it?


Yup. People who go on shooting rampages aren't called "psychos" for nothing. They don't think rationally and probably could care less what happened to the last guy. They just want to kill and then usually want to die themselves.


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## Todd

ericridebike said:


> Just curious, anyone know what the rationale is for not being able to carry on campus? I know places that serve alcohol, government buildings, etc... are obvious reasons, but I don't see any "dangers" on campus that are obvious.


I'd say it falls under that blanket rule of no guns on the property of any school. Instead of making a sub-rule based on the ages of the students, it was probably easier for the lawmakers to say no schools at all.


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## Todd

*Let's say it gets passed*

So lets say it's OK to carry on college campuses. Now what? If you go to a state school, does that law override the law of no carrying on state owned property? You go to a private school. Does that law override the school's ability to say, "Our property, our rules" just like a business owner can? Seems like even if it gets passed, there are more hurdles to overcome.


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## MLB

Todd said:


> So lets say it's OK to carry on college campuses. Now what? If you go to a state school, does that law override the law of no carrying on state owned property? You go to a private school. Does that law override the school's ability to say, "Our property, our rules" just like a business owner can? Seems like even if it gets passed, there are more hurdles to overcome.


I'd imagine that the state school and state property would be one and the same issue. One law should take care of both, but that depends on each state I suppose.

Regarding the private school issue, I'd say that it should remain as any other private property. They should be able to prohibit firearms (and live with the consequences, financial or otherwise.)


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## ModernElite

As a recent college graduate, I would be a little scared by people with guns who can't even remember to turn their cell phone off in class. I hope they're more considerate with their fire arms. My biggest fear would be a bunch of stupid frat boys all going out and getting conceal and carry permits because they think it is "cool".

HOWEVER, and I am contradicting myself on purpose... there are a hell of a lot more idiots not in college that have no place owning a gun and yet I would never claim anyone doesn't have a right to a firearm, so yeah, go for it!


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## Guest

I go to college and I have to admit that frat boys with guns sounds a little scary. That being said, I would feel much more comfortable with responsible people being allowed to carry on campus. I think theres a middle ground that a university could offer... such as special certification or registration.

The area around my campus is a bad neighborhood, and things on the campus are broken into and robbed constantly. In broad daylight.


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## Gearheart

Enough with the fratboy argument.

If you look at any segment of the population, you'll find a few complete idiots.


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## Guest

Wasnt trying to offend people in frats...


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## C-Kicks

Guest said:


> I think theres a middle ground that a university could offer... such as special certification or registration.
> 
> The area around my campus is a bad neighborhood, and things on the campus are broken into and robbed constantly. In broad daylight.


I agree on the middle ground. I am willing to let my school know that I might be carrying a gun.

One thing we have to remember here is there are not that many college students that own guns let alone have a conceal carry permit. So it is not like if became legal that all sudden every student would have a gun.


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## jump15vc

i would be willing to do so but not if it results in increased attention from campus security, professors etc. it would have to be a sealed file that cant just be accessed by anyone, otherwise CCW's could be discriminated against because as we all know, college campuses are very liberal, liberals are not fond of people with beliefs contrary to theirs and are not afraid to make this clear. Im not saying this about all liberals of course but there seem to be plenty who act in this manner, especially at my age


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## jump15vc

if given the oppurtunity though i would jump at the chance to carry at school, the idea that im surrounded by thousands of people i dont know on a campus where anyone can walk on is the only place that i cant stay strapped is a scary one at least. i know a few frat guys who do have guns and may have originally gotten them because they are cool but from what ive seen theyve embraced the responsibility that comes with owning a gun and are very safe with them. They have no problem letting people know that they carry or showing them off but ive never seen them handle their guns in a way that wasnt responsible or safe.


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## Jerbear

It's time to get rid of the execution zones period. It seems that the only places people are getting killed now are these places where were as law obiding citizens are not allowed to defend ourselves.

JMHO.....


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## tekhead1219

Sad news...this issue died waiting to get put on the calendar in Texas.:smt086


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## jump15vc

:smt086


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## nailer

My daughter was in a classroom when the shootings occurred at Virginia Tech. They locked the door and sat on the floor with their backs against the wall. Fortunately, the shooter didn't get to her room. It dramatically affected her in regards to gun control. She was for it, now she sees what can happen. I've always told her that if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have them.


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## tekhead1219

In an earlier post, I stated that the Texas bill for campus carry had died waiting on calendar. It did, but, only so far as the House went. The Senate passed the bill and now it goes back to the house for more debate. Keeping my fingers crossed as well as staying in contact with my state Rep. Have sent emails to him with favorable responses and he has co-authored the bill.:smt023


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## tekhead1219

Bill died in committee. House recessed and left it unscheduled.:smt086


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## austin88

i most definitely think they should allow this on campus especially after all these crazy campus shooting. i mean if you think about it say one out of every 10 people on campus had a ccw, then the crazy person planning to shoot up the school might think twice. and even if they went through with the shooting you wouldnt see as many innocent young people being killed


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## Geoff

*Common Sense*

I agree that people should be able to defend themselves. I have read and understand both sides of the issue and have one main concern that may draw some criticism.

I saw a lot of people mentioning common sense in their posts. Well, to quote the late Boyd Coddington "common sense is not all that common these days." How many people who are carrying, and could be shot at in a school or mall, will be able to display the kind of common sense mentioned?

Writing about common sense in a nice safe bullet free environment is fine, but displaying it under fire is a totally different matter. Common sense is not taught, it is learned by using your head and being observant.

Most people have mentioned why TO carry. Saving lives, or the possibility of saving lives. But what about accidental shootings where innocents are shot?

There are two sides to every strory and it is not always just kill or be killed. An accidental shooting can inflict as much emotional damage as an intentional shooting. But no one has bothered to mention this side of the story.


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## kg333

Geoff said:


> Writing about common sense in a nice safe bullet free environment is fine, but displaying it under fire is a totally different matter. Common sense is not taught, it is learned by using your head and being observant.


That's a fair enough point, but it applies to carry anywhere in public, not just colleges, which tend to fall under far more restrictive regulations than other public areas.

KG


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## falchunt

Anyone who meets the requirements set forth to obtain a CCW should be allowed to carry, NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, PERIOD. If the government does not trust us at colleges, governments buildings, schools, etc....they then do not trust us anywhere. If 50% of the colleges in the US allowed ccw, and 50% did not, I don't know anyone personally who would go to the latter percentile. We have a right to protect ourselves from danger, and I believe I will do anything I can to excersize that right.


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## Geoff

*Not My Point*



falchunt said:


> Anyone who meets the requirements set forth to obtain a CCW should be allowed to carry, NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, PERIOD. If the government does not trust us at colleges, governments buildings, schools, etc....they then do not trust us anywhere. If 50% of the colleges in the US allowed ccw, and 50% did not, I don't know anyone personally who would go to the latter percentile. We have a right to protect ourselves from danger, and I believe I will do anything I can to excersize that right.


My point was not to debate the right to carry and protect yourself. My point is that college students need to be able to exercise common sense and caution if they have a pistol strapped on them.

Statistically, college students are heavy drinkers, and the numbers are rising. I live in Hays Ks, about four blocks from Fort Hays State University, not by choice, but for the cheap rent. I see for myself how college kids party. I have had the cops at the kids' house across the street at 3 am because of the partying and noise. And seriously, I hope that college freshman DOES NOT have permission to carry concealed.

I want these kids to be able to protect themselves also. But how prepared can one be if something happens and you have to be able to defend yourself or a friend and you are suffering from a hangover?

The right to own and carry does not always mean the owner will exercise proper caution once he has a permission to carry concealed. I was at a party at my cousin's house a few years ago, and I saw a college student, drunk, messing with his gun. He was standing in front of the bathroom mirror holding his gun sideways and trying to be cool. But I freaked out when the dumb *#$% put the gun to his temple and made banging noises. Constitution or not, some students are too immature to own a firearm. ESPECIALLY if they drink.


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## dbarnett0311

*Common sense*



Geoff said:


> My point was not to debate the right to carry and protect yourself. My point is that college students need to be able to exercise common sense and caution if they have a pistol strapped on them.
> 
> Statistically, college students are heavy drinkers, and the numbers are rising. I live in Hays Ks, about four blocks from Fort Hays State University, not by choice, but for the cheap rent. I see for myself how college kids party. I have had the cops at the kids' house across the street at 3 am because of the partying and noise. And seriously, I hope that college freshman DOES NOT have permission to carry concealed.
> 
> I want these kids to be able to protect themselves also. But how prepared can one be if something happens and you have to be able to defend yourself or a friend and you are suffering from a hangover?
> 
> The right to own and carry does not always mean the owner will exercise proper caution once he has a permission to carry concealed. I was at a party at my cousin's house a few years ago, and I saw a college student, drunk, messing with his gun. He was standing in front of the bathroom mirror holding his gun sideways and trying to be cool. But I freaked out when the dumb *#$% put the gun to his temple and made banging noises. Constitution or not, some students are too immature to own a firearm. ESPECIALLY if they drink.


The traditional freshman has just graduated high school, is 17-18 years old, and does not have the right to carry in any state at any time. The right to carry on campus would mainly effect a traditional senior or junior in college and adult students as well as faculty. I personally would like to be able to defend myself against a student who illegally obtains a firearm and decides to go on a shooting spree. Why do people automatically assume that some scenario of animal house will be played out with guns and alcohol? Additionally, it is illegal to consume alcohol while in possession of a firearm, this means you do not have the right to carry if you are at a frat party doing keg stands. I would assume that the above person notified the owner of the property about the drunk suicidal kid in the bathroom and the police were called to take the kid to a safe place to get help, if not... They have bigger issues to worry about.


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## falchunt

*I wasn't talking to you, but....*

Even though i wasn't talking to you...	:smt075..You are absolutely right Geoff, I wouldn't argue with the fact that there are a lot of irresponsible college students. Guess what else....There's even more people who are irresponsible and more immature outside of college campus. Maybe we shouldn't let them carry with ccw either. Is that how your logic works? Look I know from personal experience that guns, alcohol, and college students are a bad combination. I also know that the students that you have to worry about are most often too lazy and irresponsible to go and get their ccw. Which means that they will probably have their guns on campus whether or not it is

technically legal, and whether or not they are legally carrying at all. I knew a lot of people who have carried their guns on campus while I was in school. It's just the way it's going to be. We might as well teach them how to do it the right way...:smt1099

You cannot put a blanket stereotype on just college students. If you wanted to do that, you might as well put sports fans right in that statement, and say, "If you watch sports you are more likely to get drunk and do something stupid with your gun". Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

If you meet the requirements set forth by the government to obtain your ccw, and your background and mental history are clear, you should be allowed to carry, PERIOD!!!!!!!!


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## dondavis3

If you've qualified and passed the concealed handgun license process, it should not be different than anywhere else.

:smt1099


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## Geoff

*Angry?*

My objective was NOT to piss anyone off, PERIOD!!!!!!!! I was just voicing concerns. I did not have Animal House in mind when I posted.

And for the record I DID NOT say that college students should not carry concealed. Just voicing concerns based on statistics and personal experiences. :buttkick:


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## dbarnett0311

*Flip-flop?*

Geoff, I think you should know that the arguement you are making is more for the prevention of alcohol on campus than the prvention of people who are already permit holders.
To quote you:
"Statistically, college students are heavy drinkers, and the numbers are rising. I live in Hays Ks, about four blocks from Fort Hays State University, not by choice, but for the cheap rent. I see for myself how college kids party. I have had the cops at the kids' house across the street at 3 am because of the partying and noise. And seriously, I hope that college freshman DOES NOT have permission to carry concealed."
Also, the argument you are making is the very same one that lawyers and politicians are trying to use to paint a picture of drunken college kids running around campus with firearms because they think it's cool. The reality is, the KIDS you are worried about can't get a permit. This is a worthy cause that many people have invested time and energy to support, and they may get a bit snippy when the same position is taken from all the nay Sayers. Try not to confuse their passion for anger... Big hugs, and that IS a P245 in my pocket if you were wondering.


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## falchunt

very well said, dbarnett0311.

For the record, I wasn't angry, just making my point as well. If you stated how you truly feel, you have every right to do so.


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## Geoff

*Misunderstanding.*

I apologize for any misunderstandings. I HATE whate the government is trying to do to our second amendment rights. If my posts painted the wrong picture I am sorry. I get a bit wound up sometimes and I guess I put it down wrong.

I am fighting for the right to keep and bear arms for any who legally can. I have written congress, lawyers, advocacy groups, senate, and etc to add my voice to those who have already made theirs heard.

If my passion for the cause got in the way of my writing and I put it down wrong or offended anyone in the process, please accept my apologies. Sincerely.


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## dbarnett0311

*Good to go*

Keep on fighting the good fight people, our second amendment rights are in the sights of congress and without a collective effort to defend ourselves we could lose the fight. Look into what the HR-45 bill is trying to do, and spread the word that congress is trying to sneak it through...


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## von buck

One of the reasons I'm working on getting my permit is that I'm the evening librarian at a intercity community college, where there have been several robberies in the surrounding area.

Andy


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## Todd

von buck said:


> One of the reasons I'm working on getting my permit is that I'm the evening librarian at a intercity community college, where there have been several robberies in the surrounding area.


Of course, you not going to be carrying at work once you get your permit since firearms on college campuses are a big legal no-no, as is discussing illegal activity here on the forum.

And everyone knows what happens if that line is crossed since we've all read the guidelines.


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## kg333

Todd said:


> Of course, you not going to be carrying at work once you get your permit since firearms on college campuses are a big legal no-no, as is discussing illegal activity here on the forum.
> 
> And everyone knows what happens if that line is crossed since we've all read the guidelines.


This depends on your state...lucky Utah-ians. :smt019 :mrgreen: There's a few other states where college carry is neither legally protected nor legally prohibited, which leaves you at the mercy of the university policy makers.

That said, I don't think CT is one of them. :watching:

KG


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## Todd

kg333 said:


> That said, I don't think CT is one of them. :watching: KG


Nope. 

*CT Firearms On School Property and School-Sponsored Events*

It is illegal, with some exceptions, to possess firearms on any elementary or secondary school property or at any school-sponsored event, if the person knows that he or she is not licensed or privileged to possess such firearms.  A violation is a class D felony.  The law does not apply to the otherwise lawful possession by: 
1.  anyone using a firearm as part of an approved school program; 
2.  anyone who has an agreement with the school allowing the firearm; 
3.  peace officers functioning in their official capacity;  and
4.  anyone with an unloaded firearm crossing school property to hunt, provided entry is allowed (CGS § 53a-217b).


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## von buck

Todd said:


> Of course, you not going to be carrying at work once you get your permit since firearms on college campuses are a big legal no-no, as is discussing illegal activity here on the forum.
> 
> And everyone knows what happens if that line is crossed since we've all read the guidelines.


Of course I'm not planning on carrying on campus. I'm not even going to carry anywhere, I'm looking for home defense.

Andy


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## kg333

To keep definitions straight though, Todd, the regulation you cited is about "elementary or secondary school", not colleges. I don't think any state allows firearms in grades K-12 schools. KY has a similar restriction on grade schools and high schools while leaving colleges the ability to regulate firearms on their properties.

Section 2 made me do a double take, though...odd that CT allows school administrators to effectively override that law if they wish.

KG


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## Todd

kg333 said:


> To keep definitions straight though, Todd, the regulation you cited is about "elementary or secondary school", not colleges. I don't think any state allows firearms in grades K-12 schools. KY has a similar restriction on grade schools and high schools while leaving colleges the ability to regulate firearms on their properties.
> 
> Section 2 made me do a double take, though...odd that CT allows school administrators to effectively override that law if they wish.
> 
> KG




True. Everything I could find this morning leaves it pretty open. I'd be willing to be though, that if you asked to carry on campus, the answer would not be "No", but "Hell no!"


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## kg333

Todd said:


> True. Everything I could find this morning leaves it pretty open. I'd be willing to be though, that if you asked to carry on campus, the answer would not be "No", but "Hell no!"


Heh, no kidding. My university president told the student president of Students for Concealed Carry: "You'll have to wait for another president" at a press conference...the politically acceptable version of "hell no" apparently.

KG


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## Sonny Boy

*In CA guess what, we can!*

Here is a link to a CCW Forum for CA. With all our moronic gun laws schools and universities for legal CCWs is OK:

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/where-can-t-i-carry/922-can-i-carry-school-university.html


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## kg333

Sonny Boy said:


> Here is a link to a CCW Forum for CA. With all our moronic gun laws schools and universities for legal CCWs is OK:
> 
> Can I carry in a school or university? - CalCCW


If permitted by university regulations, which I'll guarantee you is "no". Per my university PD, it isn't illegal to carry on campus in Kentucky either, but it leaves you open to university penalties.

KG


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## cclaxton

I didn't vote in the poll because this is not a black and white issue. In fact no law is black and white. Just look at the statutes of any state and you can understand that regulations have a lot of exceptions and subtleties. Issuing Concealed Carry for campuses is a great opportunity to provide proper training in the safety of firearms and more importantly, the appropriate use in those rare occasions when it might occur. The are at college....they are already in a learning environment. 

For Concealed Carry Holders who are not students and over the age of 21, they should be required to check with the University Police when entering campus to verify CC permit and make campus police aware, but they should not be prohibited from campus except in special circumstances (emergencies, campus shutdowns, fire, prohibited locations (hospitals, etc.), etc.).

For students under the age of 21, the legal age they can purchase ammunition or firearms, they should not be allowed to carry. However, if they want to carry when they reach the age of 21, they should be required to take 9 months (one school year) of a handgun class taught by the University Police or the Police contractor. That could be taken before the age of 21. The University Police should issue a campus CCH permit. In the class they would be taught safety, as well as how to respond in the rare situations when the legal and appropriate use of the firearm applies. They should also be taught conflict resolution as a part of the class so they understand the firearm is not a means to settle personal disputes. And, they should be taught that when unusual emotional situations occur, they should temporarily hand over their firearms to the university police for safe keeping until the emotional stress is confirmed to be over. (Girlfriend breaking up with boyfriend, for example.) And, they should be required to meet with University Police monthly to review campus incidents and gain knowlege from the LE's. Also, CCH students should live separately from non-CCW students (separate floor or section of student housing), or live off-site. They should be required to have a gun safe at their dorm room or house. And, if any student violates safety or concealment regulations, their campus permit can be rescinded. (Some sort of judicial review can be performed.)

Learning about the responsibility of owning and carrying and using a firearm is immensely valuable , and knowing that they can react legally when that rare occasion occurs will give them the confidence to carry. This training will stay with them their entire lives, make their lives safer and protect them from being prosecuted for its unlawful use.


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## SMann

cclaxton- So should all your proposed rules associated with cc only apply to college students who want to cc on campus? Training and education is always a good idea for anyone wanting to cc, but making different standards for different people in different locations doesn't sound right to me. I understand that what is right for one area (like New York) isn't always what is right for another area (like Texas) and that is why most Federal laws make me nervous, but having differing standards within an area for different groups of people doesn't seem like the right approach. I would rather see any interested American have the oppurtunity to get training and education regarding firearms paid for by tax dollars. And start it at an early age. It would be a better way of spending Defense dollars than spending money building up countries that hate us. It will never happen, but I can dream.


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## kg333

cclaxton said:


> For Concealed Carry Holders who are not students and over the age of 21, they should be required to check with the University Police when entering campus to verify CC permit and make campus police aware, but they should not be prohibited from campus except in special circumstances (emergencies, campus shutdowns, fire, prohibited locations (hospitals, etc.), etc.).


My state has specific laws against disarming the populace in a state of emergency.



cclaxton said:


> For students under the age of 21, the legal age they can purchase ammunition or firearms, they should not be allowed to carry. However, if they want to carry when they reach the age of 21, they should be required to take 9 months (one school year) of a handgun class taught by the University Police or the Police contractor.


That would be more stringent than any state requirement I'm aware of right there.



cclaxton said:


> And, they should be taught that when unusual emotional situations occur, they should temporarily hand over their firearms to the university police for safe keeping until the emotional stress is confirmed to be over. (Girlfriend breaking up with boyfriend, for example.)


Politely, no. I am not "temporarily handing over firearms to university police" for any reason short of a warrant.



cclaxton said:


> And, they should be required to meet with University Police monthly to review campus incidents and gain knowlege from the LE's. Also, CCH students should live separately from non-CCW students (separate floor or section of student housing), or live off-site. They should be required to have a gun safe at their dorm room or house. And, if any student violates safety or concealment regulations, their campus permit can be rescinded. (Some sort of judicial review can be performed.)


OK, now you're just trolling. CCW holders not permitted to live with other students who do not hold a CCW? And "required" to have a gun safe at their private residence to hold the university CCW permit you propose? I suppose that means opening my apartment to inspection by campus police to verify the presence of said safe?

To be blunt, sir, you sound like you neither have a CCW permit nor own a firearm. The restrictions you propose are draconian and absurd to the point of most gun owners refusing to pursue such a permit, which I suspect would be the entire point.

KG


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## cclaxton

KG,
I do have CC permit and I own five handguns. I carry a Bersa 380 with MagTech HP's. And, I have a daugher starting as a Freshman at college this summer, so I do have a stake in this decision. I am not here to debate the second amendment or make a mandate on anyone. I have given this a lot of thought and talked to my daughter about it as well. In my State no one is allowed to carry on campus without the University President's approval or being in LE. That is the starting point. 

I asked myself the question: "If tomorrow CCP was available to any college student who wanted and could carry anywhere on campus, would that be safe and appropriate for college students?" The answer is no. I don't know how many kids you have raised, but I have raised four teenagers and they were not responsible enough to carry concealed a firearm under the age of 21. With training, they can handle themselves at the range and at the skeet range and lightweight hunting. But to be able to carry responsibly and to know when it is appropriate to use it?...Not ready. For the same reasons the laws prohibit drinking until the age of 21. In my state you cannot apply for a CCP until the age of 21 anyway, and I would not want to change it. 

Also, I did not suggest disarming anyone...I was simply saying that if there were an emergency ON-Campus, the University Police should have the ability to keep you off campus or, if you need to get on campus, have you lock it in your vehicle or in their safe. This situation is that you are a VISITOR to campus and not a campus CCP holder. I think campus police need that discretion and I am willing to concede that. 

I think using the word "stringent" is too much. We all know that most states require very little training to get your CCP, and I talk to trainers and they all say the same thing: People need a LOT more training. We demand more training to drive a car than to carry a firearm, and I think that should change. CCP holders have a responsibility and an obligation to really know how to safely operate and use a concealed carry firearm. 

There are a lot of parents, and I would argue MOST parents would not want their student rooming with or living on the same floor with students with concealed firearms. The easiest answer to that is that only students who live off-campus can carry. 

I am not trolling or trying to get anyone upset or excited. I just put forward what I think would be generally acceptable to the electorate and be accepted by the political middle of America. (Obviously, that will vary based on the community). 

I also think draconian is too strong a term. Today most campuses don't allow concealed carry or the possession of handguns by any students. Wouldn't the proposals I made move it in the right direction, albeit not far enough for you? And, more importantly, wouldn't giving students high quality training on the safety and use of concealed carry firearms be a good thing?

Again, I am not here to get into a 2nd amendment debate or be difficult or excite anybody. As a parent, the regulations I proposed would be acceptable to me and my daughter, and I think to the majority. But that is not going to satisfy everyone.


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## Steve M1911A1

I suggest a different approach: Send your daughter to a school where firearms on campus are prohibited, and stop advocating the control of other people just to make you, or your daughter, feel safer.
If someone meets the requirements of the state in question, to issue a concealed-carry permit (age, training, _etc_.), then no other restrictions need apply to the case.

Restricting the law-abiding (a permit holder, QED) has no effect upon the felonious.


----------



## kg333

cclaxton said:


> "If tomorrow CCP was available to any college student who wanted and could carry anywhere on campus, would that be safe and appropriate for college students?" The answer is no.


Most in this thread are not suggesting extending general CCW permits to any student, only permission to carry to those already in possession of one. The idea of drunken frat boys running around with Glocks has already been beaten to death.



cclaxton said:


> I think using the word "stringent" is too much.


I said a 9 month CCW course was _more_ stringent than any state requirement I'm aware of. Until you can show me a state that requires a 9 month long course with monthly refresher courses, "more stringent than any state requirement" remains correct. I also disagree that CCW permits are too easy to obtain. Crime rates among CCW holders in many states are already far lower than the general population. For example, Florida revoked no CCW permits at all in 2009-2010, including revokations for reasons other than committing a crime. In comparision, there were 29,511 firearms related offenses in the same state that year.

Adding additional requirements to CCW holders is unnecessary when their responsibility has already been solidly demonstrated.



cclaxton said:


> We demand more training to drive a car than to carry a firearm, and I think that should change.


Why? A car is a complex mechanical device that causes tens of thousands of deaths every year. A firearm is a considerably less complicated machine. I fail to see why there should be more training required for a less complicated task, other than guns give people the heebie-jeebies.



cclaxton said:


> Also, CCH students should live separately from non-CCW students (separate floor or section of student housing), or live off-site.
> ...
> There are a lot of parents, and I would argue MOST parents would not want their student rooming with or living on the same floor with students with concealed firearms.


I was under the impression you were suggesting CCH students could not live with non-CCH students off campus either, my mistake.



cclaxton said:


> I also think draconian is too strong a term.


My main objections to your points are the measures you suggest to allow carry on campus. Requirement of ownership of gun safes, including off campus locations as you suggest, sacrifices your Fourth Amendment rights against search without probable cause or warrant. Similarly, surrendering a firearm to your university until they determine your "emotional stress is over" is a violation of Second Amendment rights. One's ability to carry a concealed weapon is restricted by the state and not directly subject to the Second Amendment, but you're suggesting restricting basic possession of a weapon, and once again include off campus properties.

As a college student and CCW holder, I would most certainly not sacrifice basic freedoms under the Second and Fourth Amendments to carry on campus, even if given the opportunity.

KG


----------



## cclaxton

KG,
I am glad we can disagree on these matters in a civil manner. First....thank you for that. I completely understand and respect your positions on these. It also sounds like we agree on some things as well.

First, I would like to give my daughter sufficient training when it comes to concealed carry firearms. I may concede the point about a two semester course being more stringent than most states require, and I might call it rigorous, but* isn't that a good thing??? *Shouldn't we use the opportunity in the debate about CC on campus to emphasize education and training for our college students? The most important part of CC training is learning how to exercise good judgement when faced with a potentially violent situation or an actual violent situation. That judgement must include understanding her legal liability when she draws or pulls the trigger. Learning to operate handguns safely and shoot well enough is not too difficult, but still requires sufficient training. College students are still learning how to exercise good judgement....just look at the percentage of college students that smoke marijuana or drink alcohol under 21.

I will stand my ground on the comparison of how much training we require to operate vehicles versus firearms. They are both very comparable...both involve legal liability, potential manslaugher charges, plenty of experience, good judgement, good behavior, etc. Anybody can learn to drive a car or shoot a handgun, but operating them in a manner that is legal, proper and with good judgement....education and training will make a big difference. And, it seems like a reasonable requirement for college students over the age of 21 to carry concealed on campus.


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## SMann

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I suggest a different approach: Send your daughter to a school where firearms on campus are prohibited, and stop advocating the control of other people just to make you, or your daughter, feel safer.
> If someone meets the requirements of the state in question, to issue a concealed-carry permit (age, training, _etc_.), then no other restrictions need apply to the case.
> 
> Restricting the law-abiding (a permit holder, QED) has no effect upon the felonious.


+1 on the above. Also, while on deployment I was on bases where everyone, including the 18 year olds, were armed. I felt much safer there than I do when I go shopping at home knowing that I may be the only good guy that is armed. Your speculation and apparent general distrust of fellow CCP holders has formed your opinion. My actual experience has formed mine.


----------



## kg333

cclaxton said:


> First, I would like to give my daughter sufficient training when it comes to concealed carry firearms. I may concede the point about a two semester course being more stringent than most states require, and I might call it rigorous, but* isn't that a good thing??? *


Your desire to ensure that your daughter is adequately trained is absolutely a good thing, and commendable that you want to take the initiative. However, I never consider additional governmental regulation and bureaucracy to be a good thing, only a sometimes necessary evil. For students who already hold a CCW permit, I don't find it to be necessary.



cclaxton said:


> Shouldn't we use the opportunity in the debate about CC on campus to emphasize education and training for our college students? The most important part of CC training is learning how to exercise good judgement when faced with a potentially violent situation or an actual violent situation. That judgement must include understanding her legal liability when she draws or pulls the trigger. Learning to operate handguns safely and shoot well enough is not too difficult, but still requires sufficient training.


Again, all commendable goals, but I personally draw the line between emphasizing the importance of training, and making that training an additional legal requirement on those who have already committed to and completed a level of training determined to be suitable to those who carry weapons in public places.



cclaxton said:


> College students are still learning how to exercise good judgement....just look at the percentage of college students that smoke marijuana or drink alcohol under 21.


As I've mentioned, these students and students who possess a CCW permit rarely, if ever, overlap.

You do seem sincere, so I apologize for accusing you of trolling earlier. If I might offer a bit of advice for your incoming freshman, have her get pepper spray and make sure she knows how to use it. At least on my campus, crime rates against women particularly are disturbingly high, and pepper spray is one of the few options left for self-defense on campus. That would probably go much further towards keeping her safe than anything else available right now.

KG


----------



## cclaxton

*Clarify My Statements on CCW for students at college.*



SMann said:


> "Your speculation and apparent general distrust of fellow CCP holders has formed your opinion. My actual experience has formed mine."


Let me be clear about my statements: I am not suggesting distrust of fellow CCP holders. I AM suggesting that, on average, students attending college under the age of 21 do not have sufficient training, experience and judgement to allow CC on campus. (There are, of course some who do, and some who have been shooting since they were teenagers, but they are a tiny minority.) I am suggesting that CC with firearms in a college level training course would insure that they do carry responsibly and better protect them from legal liability. And, that is the reassurance that I think most parents would like to see in order to tell their politicians to vote to allow CC on campus...at least in my jurisdiction.

BTW, this is not based on speculation. but on experience raising four teenagers. Good judgement is somehow tossed out the window in the campus environment, often the first real freedom kids experience once they are away from Mom and Dad. They are going to push the envelope and experiment and do some crazy things. We need to let them get that out of their system and make some mistakes, which is a part of maturity. I just don't want one of those mistakes involving them being accidentally shot or them being prosecuted for manslaughter or assault because they didn't think through the consequences of pulling the trigger.

A rigorous college level CC firearms education and training would certainly do no harm and create more responsible and better trained CC citizens.

BTW, one exception that would make sense is any person who is a veteran and honorably discharged should be granted a campus CCP without the training requirement...they have earned it.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

Um, Mr. *CClaxton*, who, exactly, has declared _you_ fit and capable to carry a concealed weapon?

I'm gonna guess here, and say that your state issued you a concealed carry permit after you passed whatever background checks and classwork that they have mandated.
Am I correct?

Why then, pray tell, would this same set of conditions be insufficient for issuance of the same permit to a college student of the required age?
What makes college students different from any other person of the minimally-required age?

This is a serious point which you have, so far, refused to address.

Mere fears and suppositions are insufficient cause for oppressive restrictions. You'll have to do better than that.


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## SMann

I have four kids as well. 21 year olds can vote, drink, drive, join the military, buy a gun and cc it. Well, not on campus unless they follow a bunch of rules that only apply to them and nobody else.:smt102 I will say that I respect your opinion, I just don't understand it or agree with it.


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## noway2

I am a staff (non faculty) employee at a university in North Carolina, which has recently (effectively) renewed the ban on campus CC with the passage of HB-650. The regulations are particularly stringent in that it kept the prohibition from having them locked in your vehicle while it is parked on school property while removing this restriction from many other areas like govt property. In my, not so humble, opinion the only thing that this has done is take away my ability to carry for defense on may way to and from work as I park in a univ lot. The majority of my driving is to and from work and this is a major percentage of my away time away from home or office. In this regard, it could be reasoned that, if I were to need protection that the averages say that it would be during this time. The college campus ban has done NOTHING to make the campus safer for all of the reasons spelled out in this thread. I believe that it in fact makes it less safe and it certainly deprives me of my safety.

At the same time, I don't think that *offering* a course such as proposed by CClaxton is a bad thing. I personally would even be interested in more study and training, especially in regards to handling threating situations that may escalate. Making them a requirement of obtaining a CCW, though, goes too far as others have pointed out; it clearly goes way in excess of any requirement of the state.


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## ozzy

Nevada didn't pass the campus carry this year because some POS would not bring it to vote. All other Legislation passed with flying colors.


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## dondavis3

Texas just passed a law saying that your employer can't not force you to drive to work w/o gun in your car because of parking in company parking lot.

You can have it in the car but of course can't bring it into business if employer says no. 

But still no guns on campus or in government buildings.


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## kg333

dondavis3 said:


> Texas just passed a law saying that your employer can't not force you to drive to work w/o gun in your car because of parking in company parking lot.
> 
> You can have it in the car but of course can't bring it into business if employer says no.
> 
> But still no guns on campus or in government buildings.


Out of curiosity, do you have a link to it? Kentucky has a similar law on the books, but it's unfortunately ineffective since it only protects you from criminal penalties. Basically, your employer can't charge you with trespassing for having a weapon in your vehicle, as could any other private business, but they can still fire you.

KG


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## dondavis3

Sorry - I don't - I read it online.

You might try the Star Telegram on line or DFW 4 Fox news online


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## jakeleinen1

BeefyBeefo said:


> Absolutely. I went to the University of Iowa and they had the same alert system that would call you and send you an e-mail. As always, there are glitches, and the system can't simultaneously call 25,000 students _plus_ the faculty to "alert" them. Not only that, but once you get the alert, that means something has already happened.
> 
> Colorado State University allows carry for permit holders on its campus, and I think that's how it should be everywhere.
> 
> -Jeff-


Haha, I go to the U of I now, and it sucks No Carry... Makes me unmotivated to get my carry license. Guess I'll have to take a bullet instead of drawing my weapon when the next kid who goes crazy comes out of the woodwork... That kid doesn't care about any "anti-carry" policies


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## cclaxton

*Virginia Commonwealth University Rules*

According to the VCU Police Dept, you are allowed to park your car on campus property and keep your firearms locked in the trunk or rear compartment of the vehicle. You can walk and drive the public streets and sidewalks while carrying, but you have to be careful because you can easily step into an alley that is owned by VCU, because not every piece of VCU property is marked clearly. After speaking with police there, they are not real concerned about legal concealed carry, but about unauthorized people on campus property with guns. But the police made a compelling argument that because of the specialized training they have, especially since Virginia Tech shootings, that they are best trained and equipped to handle a campus shooter. They also teach an Aggressive Rape Program for students to learn self-defense techniques to fend off potential attackers. And, they do allow pepper spray and will train students on its proper use. They also have an excellent security system, including video surveillance, building monitors with police radios, and a excellent student awareness program. They have a excellent notification system with web-based updates and lock-down procedures that they practice. I have to say it is one of the most well run security systems I have seen at a college campus. They are in the middle of Richmond, VA and parents expect it.

I am not saying that college carry should not be allowed, but I am saying that there are a lot of very good security measures that can and should be done and that firearms alone is not a solution.

I still support the idea that students may carry at the age of 21, and only after successfully passing two semesters of handgun training and legal use of a handgun and legal liability education. By successful, I mean they have to prove proficiency and safety and knowlege of the law and prove the knowlege of their legal obligations and appropriate use. I also support allowing ordinary citizens to carry on campus, but I think the Commonwealth needs to raise the standards so that a concealed permit is granted only after sufficient training, proof of safe and appropriate use is proven.

Thanks,


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## Steve M1911A1

cclaxton said:


> ...[T]he police made a compelling argument that because of the specialized training they have, especially since Virginia Tech shootings, that they are best trained and equipped to handle a campus shooter...


That may be true, but the police, best trained and equipped as they may be, can only arrive _after the killing has begun_. Usually, that's long, long after.

What are the potential victims to do until the police arrive?
What if nobody has called the police?

When the police agency states that only they "are best trained and equipped to handle a campus shooter," that statement tells me that the police are more interested in power and control, than they are in saving innocent lives.

BTW: What is the "magic" in specifically _two semesters_ of training? Other 21-year-olds receive carry permits after much less training-time than that. Why must "students" be different from others of the same age?
You never have addressed that issue, probably because you know that your argument is based upon emotions, and you also know that it has little logic in it.


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## cclaxton

Steve M1911A1 said:


> That may be true, but the police, best trained and equipped as they may be, can only arrive _after the killing has begun_. Usually, that's long, long after. What are the potential victims to do until the police arrive? What if nobody has called the police?
> When the police agency states that only they "are best trained and equipped to handle a campus shooter," that statement tells me that the police are more interested in power and control, than they are in saving innocent lives.


I agree with you. With CC Holders around, it is more likely an armed civilian would take him down IF an armed student or staffer or civilian were in the area at the time. Let's also be honest here....not many people will choose to carry on campus...college kids have other things on their minds. My main point here was that the police have invested in significant training to be able to respond to an incident like Virginia Tech, AND they have implemented really great security measures to prevent crime on college campuses....especially the most common crimes: Theft, property damage, drugs, under-age alcohol consumption,and assault. And, having a few armed students/staff around is no substitute for having good police patrolling, monitoring, security systems and access processes in place.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> BTW: What is the "magic" in specifically _two semesters_ of training? Other 21-year-olds receive carry permits after much less training-time than that. Why must "students" be different from others of the same age? You never have addressed that issue, probably because you know that your argument is based upon emotions, and you also know that it has little logic in it.


Just because non-students got a permit without the two semesters of training doesn't mean that the University shouldn't make that a requirement in order to help reassure parents that those who will be carrying on campus are properly trained on safety, appropriate use, risks and liabilities. And, as I have said before, there is nothing wrong with providing our college students with BETTER training than we receive, is there?

In fact, there is nothing wrong with requiring more training to hold a CC permit, in my opinion. I recently did a Gander Academy virtual training where the pistols use modified Glocks and Berettas to simulate recoil and you have to make decisions about whether to flee, fire, or refrain from firing, and to be aware of the things that can happen in a given situation. This is like the training that police received except with scenario's are appropriate to armed citizens. After going through that training this is what I learned:
- I need more training like that so I can practice making good decisions and being aware of all the possibilities, such as a 2nd shooter from behind;
- I was a pretty good shot...I hit my targets 90% of the time;
- I need a really good holster so I can react quickly in a threatening situation;
- Talking to the potential criminals is an important part of identifying the risk and making good shoot/noshoot decisions;
- Run or back away whenever possible.

Whatever we can do to help our kids get this kind of quality training is going to protect them...and that is the end goal, isn't it?
Thanks,


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## Steve M1911A1

Thank you for finally addressing those points. I understand your point of view.

However, I must admit that I still disagree with you in at least one respect: There is no need for a college student of the required age to be made to receive more training than anyone else of the same age.

I do agree, however, that almost all licensees really need more practice, and more practical experience, than they normally get.
But I would require it as "continuing education," rather than as a preliminary necessity. When required as a prerequisite, it could keep someone who is in emergency-need mode from being able to protect herself or himself.


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