# Passed NRA Conceal Carry Course: Just interested in self defense



## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Today. I passed my NRA "Conceal Carry" course. It was like I couldn't miss the 5 1/2 inch target circle. In order to pass the course I had to hit a target 5 times from 21 feet away.

My instructor had me put 5 rounds in the magazine. For the first shot, she had me do something with the Taurus PT1911 handgun which made me waste my first shot. I don't even fully remember what she had me do. I felt that the gun wasn't loaded, but it was. The way I would usually shoot single rounds was to load the magazine with one round, put the magazine in the gun, cock the gun, aim and press the trigger.

Question: My gun is for defense purposes only! How often should I go the shooting range for practice. Would once a year be enough, or can I get away with not going to the range for years. Seriously, I'm a busy person and feel I don't need that much practice. I just have to press the trigger slowly if I have to. I have 800 rounds of target ammo which took more than two weeks to reach me though my gun dealer.

My handgun shot about 80 rounds since its last cleaning. Should I clean it again. Is it due if I'm not planning on using it a lot. I'm going to clean it tomorrow to make sure I know how. I'm planning on not shooting a lot. I do need the cleaning practice. My gun dealer showed me once, and if I have problems I can see him again. When he cleaned my gun, the spring popped out and hit my eyebrow. He was scared of that happening. The trick for me is to remove the frame (slide) I have to pull it (jerk it) way way back over the hammer, I guess! To put the frame back on, I have to push down a weird pin near the hammer and jerk it back on in the reverse direction.

What are some practical ways I can use my conceal carry permit.

Here's my application for a conceal carry permit in Virginia. I'm going to fill it out tomorrow and take it to the police station next week.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/SP-248_Application_for_Concealed_Handgun_Permit_Rev_7-1-2012.pdf

The Conceal Carry course had overlap wih my NRA Handgun First Steps Orientation course. Should I take the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

" I don't even fully remember what she had me do". " I felt that the gun wasn't even loaded, but it was". I think that you need a bit more " awareness" as to what condition your firearm is in, at all times. I realize you may have been a bit nervous(maybe not) but knowing what condition your firearm is in, is of utmost importance, always. IMHO, you need to familiarize yourself with your firearm more, before you start carrying it around. Everybody's practice times are different. Some feel that a couple hundred rds. a year are enough, others shoot thousands of rds. a year. No one can tell you how much range time you think you need. How much range time do YOU think you need. If the firearm is going to stay in your home, versus carrying....I would think that practice time would vastly increase if your going to carry. Personally, I don't see how anyone could CCW a firearm, and not shoot at least 400-500 rds. a year, depending on your backround and prior experience.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Everyones different, but shooting is a perishable skill that needs to be maintained to keep proficiency with a weapon. I suggest try to work on drawing from the holster & dry firing at least once a week. I would think live fire your weapon at least once a month... round count is what you can afford. Buy snap caps and practice malfunction drills as well. That's my opinion as an NRA instructor and Tactical Handgun/Carbine instructor. 

Everyone should know or be able to figure out how much time they need for practice based on experience and proficiency.

Congrats on your CPL/CCW.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

A normal learning regimen must include 10 minutes of dry-fire practice a day, plus at least 50 rounds of live-fire practice on one day of each week.
This course of behavior teaches both familiarity with the tool, and familiarity with the process. (However, never let familiarity become overconfidence or complacency.)

As your skill improves, you should then add-in presentations from the holster, and then, when you're comfortable with that, presentations from the _concealed_ holster.
Every presentation at dry-fire should end with a "shot." The process should be a completed one.
Most formal gun ranges will not allow presentations from the holster, so live-fire training will become an issue. Maybe you can find a place which will permit this.

The next step is a presentation from concealment which ends in a "double tap," that is, a two-shot presentation. In dry-fire practice, only the first "shot" will be functionally represented, but the second one can be faked with success. Many ranges will not permit live-fire "double taps," so that, too, may become an issue.
Then go to "double taps" on more than one target: Either "one on each" of two targets, or even "two on each" on as many as three separate targets.

There's more, but the above regimen will occupy more than a year of learning.

At least _lightly_ clean a gun, including the barrel's bore, after each live-fire session.
Detail-strip it for deep cleaning after every 200 to 500 shots. (Instructions may be found in the book that accompanied your pistol.)
Wipe it with a lightly-oiled rag after every use, including dry-fire practice.
Do not store a gun in its holster.

If you properly strip a 1911 pistol, the recoil spring will not hit you. You must control it with your thumb, as you rotate the barrel bushing to set it free.
Once the spring is no longer compressed, taking the gun apart becomes quite simple and somewhat intuitive.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I've been at this for 45 years and there certainly have been times when I have been lax on my trips to the range. But never a year between sessions; probably not more than three months between them at the most. However, for some time now I have been pretty diligent with my practices and for the past year and a half, I have been going every two weeks.

As has been mentioned, shooting and good gun handling techniques are skills that need to be kept up with frequent practice if you hope to expect to be good enough to call upon your sidearm should the need arise. I would set aside time several days a week for dry practice (drawing, trigger discipline, proper hold, sight alignment, etc.) and hit the range at least once a month.

BTW, in what part of Virginia do you live?


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

The broke man perspective:

I can't tell if you have a .45 or what caliber you have, reguardless buying ammunition is expensive. I recommend you stock up on some ammo and rotate when you go to the range.

Dry fire with snap caps is good as well. Practice drawing. And another member on the forum brought up something very good. Awareness. Thats number 1 when your carrying and when your observing the enviornment around you. Always have the jump on the baddies my friend.

Lastly research, there's alot of fine print and things you need to know should you ever have to use your weapon. I suggest listening to people who have drawn or used it, theres alot of gun youtubers who have, read some laws, read forum stories, get a sense for what it means and possible consequences. Nevertheless be firm and if the time comes be ready and prepared!!!


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

I've been shooting for 37 years and feel I need to be at the range at least once/week. I've carried a firearm daily for the last 33 years. You will want to become intimately acquainted with any firearm you stake your life on. You'll want to develop the muscle memory needed to make your firearm an extension of yourself. You've received good counsel from the replies to your post. I hope you heed the sound advice you've received so you can enjoy the shooting sports. Good luck.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> There's more, but the above regimen will occupy more than a year of learning.


I'm going to buy from my gun dealer two holsters, an open carry and concealed carry holster. I'll practice drawing the gun from both. I'll concentrate on the open carry holster first. I'll also practice shooting while I duck down behind something. First, I'll use snap caps and then go to the shooting range.

But, I'm curious what else can I do to improve my chances of surviving a real serious attack.

I don't want to neglect things necessary for survival!


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Take a Tactical Handgun course... look for some in your area and look at the instructors credentials. My advice is to look for a company with instructors with LE or Milirary backgrounds so you get practical knowledge and not just "theory" instruction. Look for a course with dynamic shooting (outdoor) vs static target shooting on a traditional range. Some even offer a moving target systems to practice on.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Check out FPF Training, they are in VA and have a pretty good reputation.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

What state are you (OP) located in?


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

TAPnRACK said:


> Take a Tactical Handgun course... look for some in your area and look at the instructors credentials. My advice is to look for a company with instructors with LE or Milirary backgrounds so you get practical knowledge and not just "theory" instruction. Look for a course with dynamic shooting (outdoor) vs static target shooting on a traditional range. Some even offer a moving target systems to practice on.


I agree with you on the training part. As far as the LE or Mil background, I have to disagree on. There are very good instructors out there that were neither. As long as they know the craft, that should work. JMO


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

I just feel those who have experienced either combat or deadly force confrontations on multiple occasions may have more to offer in way of practical application gained through personal experience vs someone who has never actually been in a high stress deadly force confrontation.

I do think there are some amazing instructors out there with no real life experience... but far too many bad ones who read a book or took an 8 hr instructor class as well being Tacti-cool.

Just my opinion... based on the many schools I've attended and the feedback from students at the company I teach for.

Would you rather go to a Sniper School ran by real Snipers with time in the field or a group of Hunters who shoot long distance for a hobby?


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

TAPnRACK said:


> I just feel those who have experienced either combat or deadly force confrontations on multiple occasions may have more to offer in way of practical application gained through personal experience vs someone who has never actually been in a high stress deadly force confrontation.
> 
> I do think there are some amazing instructors out there with no real life experience... but far too many bad ones who read a book or took an 8 hr instructor class as well being Tacti-cool.
> 
> Just my opinion... based on the many schools I've attended and the feedback from students at the company I teach for.


I can understand your point. Some of the instructors I have run into thru my training schedules have been there and done that as civilians. Some of the LE have never pulled there gun in the line of duty. You are right about checking creds, it does help. I have seen to many times someone that was in LE or Mil were not what they claimed. IE: A truck driver in the Mil. or a desk jockey as LE. Some of us have seen the elephant....:smt023


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Very true... there are a lot of those out there too.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

TAPnRACK said:


> Very true... there are a lot of those out there too.


And a lot, and I mean a lot of the tacti-cool instructors as well. Its really bad in some areas...Sometimes I have to wonder what the hell the training counselors are thinking letting some of these jokers thru....


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Harryball said:


> And a lot, and I mean a lot of the tacti-cool instructors as well. Its really bad in some areas...Sometimes I have to wonder what the hell the training counselors are thinking letting some of these jokers thru....


A lot of it is lack of oversight after the fact/certification. They can fake the funk pretty well and let's be honest, a NRA Very is not that hard to get.


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## Harryball (Oct 10, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> A lot of it is lack of oversight after the fact/certification. They can fake the funk pretty well and let's be honest, a NRA Very is not that hard to get.


No its not if you find the right training counselors. lol The last classes I had we really good. The instructors was a no BS kinda of guy, and the class was fun, and interesting. To be honest if you pay attention its not that hard, but it was much better than the last bunch of guys.

The advanced instructor set is what you want anyways, thats not so easy to get...


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

I go to the shooting range every 3 months, shoot 50 rounds obtained directly from the range, and spend the minimum amount of time there.

The amount of time at the range is based on the minimum time slots that the range sells.

Is this stupid, smart, or just okay?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> I go to the shooting range every 3 months, shoot 50 rounds obtained directly from the range, and spend the minimum amount of time there.
> 
> The amount of time at the range is based on the minimum time slots that the range sells.
> 
> Is this stupid, smart, or just okay?


It is stupid, smart, or OK only if you use the range time to better your technique.
If you are merely banging away at a fairly close target, you are both not doing it often enough, and not doing enough. Thus, you may be wasting your time.

I suggest that, if you carry a defensive weapon, you need to practice with live ammunition about once a week. In that case, 50 rounds per session-or even fewer-would be enough.
You should also dry-fire practice for a few minutes, every day.

But none of this is useful, nor is it a good use of your time, if it is not done according to a plan.

Have you ever taken a course in pistol shooting?


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Have you ever taken a course in pistol shooting?


Regrettably no, I have a *busy schedule *or I'm tired to the point of near total exhaustion. I find it hard to find free time.

For example, these last few years I have had to move around the country a lot for work and get settled in to my new place and job.

Since 1996, I've been exercising regularly (4 hours weight training each week and 1/2 hour aerobics each day)!

I've been 20 pounds overweight for the last two years. (Cause: I used to buy all organic food and switched to non organic which offers more choices.) I am on a new weight loss meal plan that I think will finally work.

Why should I do more than the same simplistic shooting technique every 3 months. Seriously, if I should be doing more explain to me why in a way that will get me to do it.

I enjoy going at the range, but I have to know what to do beyond simply shooting at the same target 20 feet away. How will taking other courses protect help me protect myself.

My shooting range is a 30 mile drive from where I live.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Today. I passed my NRA "Conceal Carry" course. It was like I couldn't miss the 5 1/2 inch target circle. In order to pass the course I had to hit a target 5 times from 21 feet away.


OK! I'm going to try to answer your questions as nicely as I know how. If I'm a little rough on you, then, I apologize in advance. Now, not to upset you, but, 7 1/2 yards is, 'mutual suicide distance'! If you're going to be effective with a pistol - and, especially, against more than one armed opponent - you need to be able to consistently hit that 5 1/2 inch circle from more than twice that distance; AND, you need to do it quickly - Very quickly.



SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Question: My gun is for defense purposes only! How often should I go the shooting range for practice. Would once a year be enough, or can I get away with not going to the range for years. Seriously, I'm a busy person and feel I don't need that much practice. I just have to press the trigger slowly if I have to. I have 800 rounds of target ammo which took more than two weeks to reach me though my gun dealer.


Not an easy question to correctly answer. There is a big difference between the skill levels of someone who's used to firing 1,000 to 1,500 rounds a month taking time off and not returning to the range for a year, and someone else who, 'just passed' some cockamamie pistol course, and imagines that he's going to be effective with a pistol if he only practices every six months, or so.

THAT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! (You wouldn't believe the pathetic, 'gun nonsense' I see at the range every weekend! Then, again, maybe you would; and, if you want to be really impressed, wait until the Russians come out from Brighton Beach, set up, and begin shooting. The whole personality of the firing line suddenly changes! These guys shoot and act as if they were born with a little silver gun in their mouths!)

As for, '_slowly pressing the trigger_' being all that you need? Ahh, &#8230;&#8230; No! Until you can draw and fire, at least, three accurate rounds in less than three seconds you are, and will continue to be, no better than an excellent target.



SelfDefenseNovice said:


> My handgun shot about 80 rounds since its last cleaning. Should I clean it again. Is it due if I'm not planning on using it a lot. I'm going to clean it tomorrow to make sure I know how. I'm planning on not shooting a lot. I do need the cleaning practice. My gun dealer showed me once, and if I have problems I can see him again. When he cleaned my gun, the spring popped out and hit my eyebrow. He was scared of that happening. The trick for me is to remove the frame (slide) I have to pull it (jerk it) way back over the hammer, I guess! To put the frame back on, I have to push down a weird pin near the hammer and jerk it back on in the reverse direction.


There are no, '_tricks_' to disassembling and reassembling a handgun - Only certain steps that need to be followed. There are no, '_weird pins_' on a pistol. There are only pins whose use you either do, or do not, yet understand. Have you been reading the Owner's Manual that came with the gun? Have you read it, at least, three times? (I always have.) 

A hard fast rule: Just like in the military, if you shoot the gun, you clean the gun. It's been, literally, three or four decades since it's taken me longer than two or three days in order to clean whatever I recently finished shooting. Usually, I clean my weapons the same day I use them; and, often, I clean my primary pistol before I leave the range. (Because it's, also, my EDC; and I hate getting, 'range crud' all over my shirts and pants.)

Your cleaning question would be better stated as, 'How do I disassemble and reassemble my pistol?' (Which has me wondering what pistol you own?) Why don't you check YouTube to see what disassembly/reassembly and cleaning videos are listed there.

I can save you some cleaning time by telling you to wrap a properly sized cotton cleaning patch around your bore brush, and scrubbing out your barrel like this rather than working with either an unnecessary and time-consuming slotted tip, or jag.

When you've got your seldom-used pistol clean do one of two things: (1) Either coat and polish its exterior with any auto polish that contains Carnauba wax; or (2) use FrogLube in order to do the same thing. This way your pistol will be able to withstand a lot of external neglect between periods of use; and the usual periodic maintenance required with petrochemical cleaners will be greatly reduced. Your bore should be periodically wiped out and inspected. How often? If the gun is kept in a reasonably dry and temperature-controlled environment, once every six months should be sufficient.

If you can't get to the range all that frequently, you should set up a training regimen similar to someone who works out with calisthenics or weights. With a cleared and empty pistol you need to practice your draw while keeping your trigger finger arrow-straight along the side of the frame, and until the pistol's muzzle passes the, 'low-ready' position. (45 degrees in front of you with the muzzle still pointing at the ground.) You need to practice drawing like this, over and over, again until the body movement becomes a thoroughly-ingrained reflex action.

The other exercise you should regularly practice is dry-firing. Ten or fifteen minutes in the morning, and the same thing, again, at night. What you need to do is to hold the front sight PERFECTLY steady every time you press the trigger, and the sear, 'breaks'. You'll have good days, and bad; but you've got to stay with dry-firing until you, 'know' what that front sight is going to do every time you press the trigger.



SelfDefenseNovice said:


> What are some practical ways I can use my conceal carry permit.


There ain't any! It's not a, 'badge of honor' - Only a legal document. Keep it in your wallet, and focus your energy upon learning how to safely and efficiently master your gun.



SelfDefenseNovice said:


> The Conceal Carry course had overlap with my NRA Handgun First Steps Orientation course. Should I take the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course.


Yes! You should take both Personal Protection Courses: Inside, and Outside The Home. If I wanted to quickly learn how to effectively use a handgun I'd contact any IDPA, or USPSA gun clubs in the area, tell them that I'm a novice, and I'd like to take the safety and handling classes preparatory to shooting in a few matches.

If you have the money, then, I'd suggest you seek professional training with someone like D.R. Middlebrooks at Tactical Shooting Academy in Surrey, Virginia. D.R. is a very good pistol instructor; if you listen to him and absorb what he says, I'm sure he'll turn you into a much better than average pistolero. (Your days of hitting yourself in the eye with recoil springs will be over!) 

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/what-is-fist-fire/

Good luck to you!

NOTE: You do NOT need to purchase two holsters; and forget about, '_ducking down_' while practicing, too. Simply follow the training regimen outlined above. One OTB strong-side holster will be sufficient. Just make certain to get one with a, 'stiff mouth' on it that carries the gun's butt in tight to your body. Me? I'd, probably, be happy with something like a Safariland, 'ALS' paddle holster.

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6378 (Which may, or may not, fit your particular pistol. I don't know?)


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## Bobv (Oct 31, 2013)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Today. I passed my NRA "Conceal Carry" course. It was like I couldn't miss the 5 1/2 inch target circle. In order to pass the course I had to hit a target 5 times from 21 feet away.
> 
> My instructor had me put 5 rounds in the magazine. For the first shot, she had me do something with the Taurus PT1911 handgun which made me waste my first shot. I don't even fully remember what she had me do. I felt that the gun wasn't loaded, but it was. The way I would usually shoot single rounds was to load the magazine with one round, put the magazine in the gun, cock the gun, aim and press the trigger.
> 
> ...


Train to maintain, a Unprepared carry concealed person with no musle control drawing or practice with his or her firearm will likley get them killed or hurt, you should practice weekly or a couple times a week and when satisfied with your performance then you should regulary shoot to stay focused and in check.:numbchuck:


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> It is stupid, smart, or OK only if you use the range time to better your technique.
> If you are merely banging away at a fairly close target, you are both not doing it often enough, and not doing enough. Thus, you may be wasting your time.
> 
> I suggest that, if you carry a defensive weapon, you need to practice with live ammunition about once a week. In that case, 50 rounds per session-or even fewer-would be enough.
> ...


Yes, I have a carry permit, but I always keep my weapon at home. I have the permit for when I go to the range. (I know I probably don't need it, but it may help me if I'm stopped by an officer.) Since I am at home for at least 8 hours of sleep, I feel that I am protected while home.

Am I correct, or should I shoot more and go to the range more, please give me details of what I should be doing. I want to learn to better myself!

My range does not allow me to draw my gun from a holster.

I will try to act on sound advice.

Thank you,


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

First of all, you need to decide why you own a pistol:
Is it for recreation and fun?
Is it to help you improve your general physical skills?
Is it to familiarize yourself with pistols, out of general interest?
Or is it for self-protection?

Once you have decided what function the gun is supposed to fill, then you can decide how to go about using it.

So, let's start with that basic question: Why do you own a pistol?
(Please answer as completely as possible.)

If, according to your screen name, you are indeed a _self-defense_ novice, please explain why you seem so uninterested in actually learning self-defense technique.
(Please answer as completely as possible.)

If you have gone to the trouble of acquiring a carry permit in a state which does not require you to have one for mere ownership, why do you seem so uninterested in pistol carry?
(Please answer as completely as possible.)

With that information in hand, maybe I, and the others, can give you some useful advice, and answer your questions.


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## OGCJason (Nov 4, 2013)

Steve brings up some great points which many of us have already elaborated on at some point or another. Rather than wax on and on, self defense I will say is not a permit, or even owning a gun...it's a mindset. You are saying that you want to be able to defend yourself. From what?

From criminals? From zombies? From the government?

If it's B or C, good luck...if it's A, then you've got a reasonable mentality. I carry to defend from criminals that would harm me or my family. That brings up a whole new realm of questions though. For starters, your NRA cert, while definitely a good start, is not the be all end all...it's a start.

Do you think criminals will only barge in or attack you when it's nice out? It's important to train in all climates. Inclement or rather non-normal circumstances is actually when most criminal activity occurs, I'd highly suggest you train on using your firearm in all weather. It was -20 out in Ohio the other day. When I got home I went outside, wrapped a few externally facing faucets with hand Warner's, then insulation cups. I took my sidearm, paced out 50 feet and emptied my magazine with no gloves on.

Train when it's cold.
Train when it snows.
Train when it rains.
Train when it's dark. 
Train when it's hot.
Train whenever you can.

Carrying is a lifestyle, not a convenience. Criminals don't come when it's convenient for you...they come when it suits them, or when they are desperate enough to take from you for themselves no matter the risk, the weather, or time of day.

Sorry if this seems a rant, but when people take my concealed carry class, they think that will complete their training. By the time they leave, they realize it's only the beginning.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> So, let's start with that basic question: Why do you own a pistol?
> (Please answer as completely as possible.).


I own a pistol to defend myself against an intruder into my home who is planning on harming me. I feel that 8 hours in the home is enough for me



Steve M1911A1 said:


> If, according to your screen name, you are indeed a _self-defense_ novice, please explain why you seem so uninterested in actually learning self-defense technique.
> (Please answer as completely as possible.) .


I am interested in learning self-defense technique, but I'm also a busy person. Above all else, I want to do what is _minimally_ required to defend myself in my home with a gun. I will find time to learn if I have to do so in order to protect myself.

I guess I thought (incorrectly) that it was enough to just go to the range every 3 months, put both hands on the gun, squat, and slowly shoot 50 rounds at a target 20 feet away in 1/2 hour. I actually thought that was enough to protect myself. I was never planning on shooting it out with more than 1 intruder etc.

I also thought it would be fairly easy to learn how to do all this, but I want to do only what my time will allow and is competent training.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> If you have gone to the trouble of acquiring a carry permit in a state which does not require you to have one for mere ownership, why do you seem so uninterested in pistol carry?.
> (Please answer as completely as possible.)


For various reasons such as, I have worked on military bases where they're generally not allowed, and I feel that home protection is enough for me.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> With that information in hand, maybe I, and the others, can give you some useful advice, and answer your questions.


Thank you for your kind and well thought out guidance,


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Yes, I have a carry permit, but I always keep my weapon at home. I have the permit for when I go to the range. (I know I probably don't need it, but it may help me if I'm stopped by an officer.) Since I am at home for at least 8 hours of sleep, I feel that I am protected while home.
> 
> Am I correct, or should I shoot more and go to the range more, please give me details of what I should be doing. I want to learn to better myself!
> 
> ...


First off, you have received some sage advice so far on this thread. But I have to tell you that your mindset and attitude is not conducive to becoming proficient with a defensive sidearm. This is in no way meant as a flame or an insult but rather to be considered as an instructive observation. We are all really trying to help you along.

If you own a gun and the purpose of that gun is to provide you with a measure of security in the event your domain is breached (think your home with this), then you owe it to yourself and anyone else around you to be proficient with that firearm. But that is just the beginning. You also owe it to yourself and others to learn the laws of our state and to develop a mindset that is firmly entrenched in using that gun effectively and efficiently if and when you must call upon it. This means training with that gun AND training your mind to change directions where you very well may have to shoot someone.

Okay, in Virginia you do not need a CHP to carry a gun concealed in your vehicle where concealment means a glove box or a console. Or a trunk for that matter. And of course, you can carry it openly without a permit at your wont. So going from and to a place to shoot does not require a permit.

Going to a range and just punching paper can get boring and frankly, it doesn't teach you a lot. Yes, it can help with things such as stance, grip, sight alignment, and a some other factors, but it doesn't really challenge you. I asked in which part of Virginia do you live. Let me know and perhaps I can help with some more info.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

This may get lengthy...

You wrote: "I want to do what is _minimally required_ to defend myself in my home with a gun. I will find time to learn if I have to do so in order to protect myself."

The minimal requirement for _any_ self-defense shooting is a level of competence that will affect only the bad guy (BG)-or bad guys-and will not threaten anybody else. This means that you must be deadly accurate with your pistol at the length of a long hallway or a large room.

To achieve deadly accuracy at this sort of distance-say 20 feet-you need to be competent to a much further distance. The reason for this is that when you become involved in a real fight, your so-called small-motor control will go out the window while unavoidable panic sets in. Thus, you must be able to shoot accurately "on autopilot," and without any thought or nuance of control. The way to achieve this competence is to practice at greater distances. I suggest working yourself out to 15 or 20 _yards_, not feet.

A further minimum competence is being able to draw-down on a BG, but at the same time being able to stop yourself from firing a shot. During a save-your-life panic, this is a very difficult thing to do. The only way to learn this is to have someone else set up a series of clearly-indicated "shoot" and "no-shoot" targets, in random configurations and quantities, against which you will shoot.

Yet another basic competence is knowing what your bullet will do if you miss your target. How many walls will it penetrate? Will it go all the way to a neighbor's house? Or into your intimate friend's bedroom? Maybe you will need to seek a different type of bullet. Get a sheet of drywall, break it into pieces, and shoot through various numbers of layers, to see what happens.

You must be able to shoot accurately and _quickly_. Very quickly. You should be able to place three _accurate_ shots into a target 15 yards away, from the holster, in less than three seconds. The shots do not all have to go into the same hole, but they should form a pattern no larger than six inches in diameter.

Finally, you need to learn how to shoot accurately and quickly while at the same time holding and aiming a flashlight. _The flashlight should *not* be mounted on the pistol_; rather, it should be easily and quickly separated from it, for many reasons that should only be explained by an experienced instructor. The most important reason is that the flashlight's beam gives the BG an aiming point, so you need to be able to keep it away from your body at times.

To learn all of these things, I strongly suggest that you need to take at least a couple of classes from a very competent, self-defense-shooting instructor. Not just a shooting instructor, note, but a specialist, preferably one who knows Virginia self-defense law. I also suggest that you will have to practice your pistol-shooting skills for about 10 minutes, every day at home ("dry firing"), and at least once a month at a range. Once a week is better.

BTW: You do need to use a holster, and to make presentations from it. If your home is ever attacked, you will not have time to run into your bedroom to retrieve your gun. Since your local range forbids from-the-holster work, that's one of the things you will practice at home while dry-firing.

...And this covers only the very basic parts of _home_ defense. Defense in the outside world is a whole 'nother animal.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> This may get lengthy...
> 
> You wrote: "I want to do what is _minimally required_ to defend myself in my home with a gun. I will find time to learn if I have to do so in order to protect myself."
> 
> ...


Thank you, I will start doing all of this and only this, immediately! For example, I will go to the range once a month, shoot as far down the range as I am permitted to, shoot 3 shots fast, sometimes use 1 hand to shoot, and I will use my snap caps to dry fire each week from a holster using no-shoot targets. But, some time in the future, I will look for other courses to take, and maybe an instructor to help me shoot better.

Can you recommend a book or series of books for me?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Thank you, *I will start doing all of this and only this*, immediately! For example, I will go to the range once a month, shoot as far down the range as I am permitted to, shoot 3 shots fast, sometimes use 1 hand to shoot, and I will use my snap caps to dry fire each week from a holster using no-shoot targets. But, some time in the future, I will look for other courses to take, and maybe an instructor to help me shoot better.
> 
> Can you recommend a book or series of books for me?


I wouldn't say "doing all of this and only this". Keep your mind open so that you are open to learning a variety of things related to all of this. At some point you'll begin to filter out that which is not to your liking for one reason or another and you will willow down your techniques to those which work the best for you. This is to be expected. But it is still good to remain open, even after you have become acclimated to the gun culture. I've been at this for nearly 46 years and I still learn new things frequently.

*"Can you recommend a book or series of books for me?"*
Not sure what sort of books you're looking for but I suspect you want something that helps you with shooting. How about a video series?

This is a good one with lots of information. It does assume a solid basic knowledge and understanding of handguns and terminology. But there is much to learn from it;

Amazon.com: The Art of the Dynamic Handgun: Movies & TV

Start slow. First learn the basic safety rules and drill them into your head until they become as natural as breathing. Remember, once a bullet leaves your muzzle, there's no recalling it. Never get cavalier when handling firearms. And there is such a thing as being too cautious. Treat it like what is is; a tool that can be very dangerous if improperly handled.

Next up is what Steve talked a lot about. Practice at home and do it a lot WITH AN UNLOADED GUN. Practice and perfect your grip on the gun. Lots of videos on the web about this so you should have no trouble getting good information here. And ignore most of what you see on TV and the movies. Gotta wonder what sort of people are their technical advisers with most shows. Practice the various stances and use a mirror or a video camera to help you with this. Practice sight alignment and picture, and target acquisition. Again, there are a host of web videos for this as well. Thing is, you'll have to know which videos are good and which ones are not so good.

At the range. DO NOT start right off with rapid fire. For one thing, a lot of ranges don't allow this. And remember, you are trying to perfect a bunch of things so jumping in and going crazy is NOT going to serve you well. Take your time, get use to how your gun performs and how you perform with your gun. And make sure your rounds are hitting the target. About five years ago, I took a novice to one of the ranges were I am a member. He had recently purchased his first gun; a Glock 19. He was having a hard time hitting the target, any of it, at 25 yards from a rest. Turns out he was pulling the trigger from its fully forward position, through both stages instead of from reset. And he was jerking the trigger. Once we got him to correct this, he started putting rounds on paper. So take your time on the range and don't think that things will only take one or two weeks of work. You may be a quick study but don't plan on it. And don't get frustrated. It will come.

Start with your target close if you can; like 21 feet or less for starters. Once again, sight alignment and picture, and target acquisition will get you to consistency and accuracy. Understand the fundamentals of shooting a handgun (videos) and practice, practice, practice at home before you hit the range.

How often for the range? I go every two weeks and on occasion, every week. You'll have to decide what is best for you, but if you ever hope to be proficient and confident with your gun, you are going to have to do the work.

Learn the language of the gun. Learn some history. Learn about ammunition. Learn the laws of our state and how they address the use of deadly force. I have taken three courses specifically about this topic and another course best referred to as a post permit advanced carry course. Learn to separate the BS from facts. BS can get you in a lot of trouble if you ever have to pull that gun. So know what the law says about the use of deadly force. I'll give you a taste of what Virginia says about this (not part of statute, but rather from an attorney);

*"If you have a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent person is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you are authorized to use such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to stop the threat."*

Commit this to memory and understand all of it. Then spend the time and effort doing your research on our laws. Much of what we have in Virginia is common law dating back to 1607. It has served us quite well. But there are little nuances such as when a thief entering your home is a burglar and when he is something else. Why is this important? It's because that something else is not a felony which can be answered with deadly force. There is a bit more like this.

*"What are some practical ways I can use my conceal carry permit."*
I'm not sure what you're asking here so I don't quite know how to answer it. Please elaborate for me.

That's about it for starters. So ask away and let's see how we can help you along further.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

+1 on the Magpul DVD (Art of Dynamic Handgun)... watching that is next best thing to taking an actual class. Those guys (Costa & Haley & Fisher) teach the most up to date handgun techniques. Full version is on YouTube for free... if it's still up.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> ...Can you recommend a book or series of books for me?


A book won't help.
Pistol shooting-and shooting in general-is much too physical an exercise to allow learning it from a book.
(Take my word for it: I've read almost all of the relevant books, and none of them will help you.)

All beginning self-defense shooters need a live, competent coach at their shoulders.

However, after you have perfected your basic technique, and are ready to learn some practical save-your-life tactics, then there are some good and useful books-and magazine articles, too. Look online for Stephen P. Wenger's _Defensive Use of Firearms_. Look for _everything_ written by Massad Ayoob, including both books and magazine articles.


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## OGCJason (Nov 4, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> A book won't help.
> Pistol shooting-and shooting in general-is much too physical an exercise to allow learning it from a book...


What an interesting statement...lesse, where else did I read that in this thread?



OGCJason said:


> ...For starters, your NRA cert, while definitely a good start, is not the be all end all...
> 
> I'd highly suggest you train on using your firearm in all weather. It was -20 out in Ohio the other day. When I got home I went outside, wrapped a few externally facing faucets with hand Warner's, then insulation cups. I took my sidearm, paced out 50 feet and emptied my magazine with no gloves on.
> 
> ...


Oh, right, THAT'S where!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Be gentle, Jason.
He's trying to learn from us.

We shot in the rain. We shot in the snow. We shot in the heat of the California desert. We even shot in the intellectual desolation of Bakersfield.

Once, it had snowed quite a lot but we still had to do our weekly practice.
How much snow was there? Well, my VW, normally able to go anywhere, just plowed its nose under a drift and wouldn't budge. The 4WD truck was stuck too, but able to get itself out.
So first we pulled the VW out and turned it around. Then we all walked into the range, carrying all of our equipment, at least a mile from the nearest (dirt) Forest-Service road.
(My VW got stuck five miles from the nearest plowed road.)
It was easy to find our empties, though: Each one was at the bottom of a neat little hole in the snow.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Be gentle, Jason.
> He's trying to learn from us.
> 
> We shot in the rain. We shot in the snow. We shot in the heat of the California desert. We even shot in the intellectual desolation of Bakersfield.
> ...


Bet it was uphill both ways.

(aw come on.... you had to know I couldn't let that one pass)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> Bet it was uphill both ways...


It always was.

You know, the funny thing was that when I was young, my way to school really was "uphill both ways."
I walked downhill to the subway, rode to the end of the line, and then walked up a very steep, long hill to school.
On my way home, I walked downhill to the subway, rode back to 103rd Street, and then up a long, steep hill to our home.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I never took a bus to school from first through twelfth grade. I did ride with a friend in my senior year but all the rest of it I walked to and from school. Distances ranged from a mile to a half a mile. Snow, rain, heat... it didn't matter.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...Uphill both ways, of course.


And here endeth ye hijacking. We now return you to the thread, still in progress...


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## OGCJason (Nov 4, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Be gentle, Jason.
> He's trying to learn from us.
> 
> ...


I was going easy on him. Was giving you a hard time as you'd repeated some stuff I'd said further up thread. 

I didn't walk uphill both ways but I did walk a tad over a mile one way in days I missed the bus. In winter my folks eased up since I was on swim team and got out of practice at 6pm with my hair all wet since I was too tired/lazy to dry it. They didn't want me walking home line that.

The next year my dad let me drive the '69 land rover we used to plow the driveway....provided I did that (plow the driveway whenever it snowed)! LOL


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## sonja (Sep 16, 2011)

If you want to defend yourself -- and not get shot when the bad guy takes away your firearm -- first learn how to maintain your gun. Then learn how to shoot. Next learn how to hit what you are aiming at. It also makes sense that you contemplate what shooting a person means, what taking a life means. Be honest with yourself -- can you do it?

You must also learn how to handle a firearm SAFELY -- otherwise you might well shoot yourself or an innocent party ( "For the first shot, she had me do something with the Taurus PT1911 handgun which made me waste my first shot. I don't even fully remember what she had me do. I felt that the gun wasn't loaded, but it was".). In which direction did you "waste your first shot"? Was anyone hurt." What did she have you do? Do you know what it did? Perhaps she had you rack the slide and load one in the chamber? Maybe you did that earlier, and she had you release the safety? She did NOT make you waste your first shot -- YOU PULLED THE TRIGGER. You shot that 1911 without having a clue of what you were doing. Could it happen again? 

Think about the inevitable lawsuit that will follow if you are cleared of criminal charges - this if it's a bad guy or a friend you shoot. If you are "too busy" to bother to learn - why would you want to wield deadly force? Do you think brandishing a gun will "scare away" a bad guy? It might -- but, what if it does not? 

If you are "too busy" to learn how to protect yourself, how to handle a gun safely, how to hit what you aim at -- DO NOT BUY A GUN. Either depend on law enforcement, or hire a professional. Your rather cavalier attitude will only lead to one form of grief or another.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Thank you, I will start doing all of this and only this, immediately! For example, I will go to the range once a month, shoot as far down the range as I am permitted to, shoot 3 shots fast, sometimes use 1 hand to shoot, and I will use my snap caps to dry fire each week from a holster using no-shoot targets. But, some time in the future, I will look for other courses to take, and maybe an instructor to help me shoot better.
> 
> Can you recommend a book or series of books for me?


Well, thanks again for your good advice, I cherish it. But, I have few questions for you and the group, see below.

I have been going to the range once a month and shooting 50 rounds in less than a half hour each time. I also practice (dry firing) each week with 10 snap caps. At the range, I position my targets as far as they can go (60 feet away from me).

I've noticed that my firing accuracy has greatly fallen off (from shooting targets at much closer distances) with about 10 of my shots missing the paper target completely each day I visit the range! What suggestions do you have for me. What can I do to improve my firing accuracy if I only shoot 50 rounds a month?

Question: I own a 45 Tarus hand gun. Do you think that I can "greatly" improve my accuracy with my gun if I buy extra parts for the gun to make the barrel longer, please elaborate?

Again thanks
Real novice


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SelfDefenseNovice said:


> Well, thanks again for your good advice, I cherish it. But, I have few questions for you and the group, see below.
> 
> I have been going to the range once a month and shooting 50 rounds in less than a half hour each time. I also practice (dry firing) each week with 10 snap caps. At the range, I position my targets as far as they can go (20 feet away from me).
> 
> ...


Think trigger discipline. This is where you're most likely having your problems. Move the target closer, 9 to 12 feet, and start from there. Get your grip, trigger discipline, and sighting down to where you just do it automatically. Then move the target a little farther out and start the process all over again.

Taurus 45? Are we talking a 1911 styled pistol? Getting a longer barrel is going to be a waste of money for what you want. The sight radius will not have changed so you're still shooting the same. You need to get the basics down pat and concentrate on that before anything else.


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Think trigger discipline. This is where you're most likely having your problems. Move the target closer, 9 to 12 feet, and start from there. Get your grip, trigger discipline, and sighting down to where you just do it automatically. Then move the target a little farther out and start the process all over again.
> 
> Taurus 45? Are we talking a 1911 styled pistol? Getting a longer barrel is going to be a waste of money for what you want. The sight radius will not have changed so you're still shooting the same. You need to get the basics down pat and concentrate on that before anything else.


Yes, my handgun is a 1911. I was wondering what is the reason for the capability of a longer barrel replacement.

I corrected a typo in my last post. I'm having trouble shooting at a 60 foot paper target.

Thanks,


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## SelfDefenseNovice (Jan 6, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Amazon.com: The Art of the Dynamic Handgun: Movies & TV


I've had the video for a while now, and "just started watching" disk 1. I'm learning about the 100% grip (pressing tightly on the gun) and the advice seems to be great. I.E.: My gun has recoiled upwards and I'm thinking I should use the grip described.

I watched most of disk 1. The 4 disks are much more than I thought. So, I'll try to watch the other disks when I feel I should.

Thank you,


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