# Why do people think a 38 special is so great for women?



## cclaxton

I was at a BUG match last weekend and saw a woman shoot her very nice S&W .38 special with a 3" barrel. She could barely hit the targets. She eventually gave up the match. When I asked her, she said she can't handle the recoil.

Then, I am at the gun show and a salesman suggests to a woman to buy a .38 special snub-nose revolver. I didn't say anything, but that is a horrible idea. I have shot my brothers .38 special and I found recoil very difficult to manage....on a full-sized revolver. 

I just don't understand the perception that a .38 special revolver is such a great gun for women. My girlfriend would rather shoot my fullsized 9mm than the S&W Bodyguard 380 because of recoil. There are a lot of better guns for women to shoot with more manageable recoil and one they will practice and get good at, including revolvers and semi-autos. 

The bottom line is this: If she won't practice and will not enjoy shooting the gun because of recoil and she cannot hit the target 4 out of 5 shots, then what good is it?

Maybe someone can explain how we got to this point?
CC


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## Holly

I wish I could help you out on this one, but I have the same question myself.


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## chessail77

Maybe the choice in handguns and caliber should be left to the person shooting it after the person has shot some to make better choices.......do I pick out a bra for my wife (only at Victoria's Secret after several female sales clerks have modeled it for me...I wish)......JJ


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## thndrchiken

Recoil is subjective and I feel has more to do with fit of the firearm than the cartridge it's chambered for.


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## VAMarine

All I have to say about it has all ready been said *HERE,* and probably said better:



> It sucks.
> 
> A lightweight .38 snubnosed revolver is quite possibly the worst choice for a potential new gunchick because, you know what? Practicing with one enough to actually be able to hit your target is the opposite of fun. The recoil hurts, your hand goes numb, and if the trigger is heavy, JMB help you...your finger will be sore and red long after your trip to the range. You'll be tempted to give up and let your "best gun for a woman" collect dust in a drawer somewhere


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## chup

I think in general people feel if a Woman can't handle a Semi-Auto Slide, the Revolver is the way to go. 38 Special is a good caliber. The biggest problem is, in my opinion, nobody takes the time to fit the gun to them. If that Lady had the correct grips to absorb recoil and fit her hand and the correct load that did not have a lot of recoil, she would be able to handle the gun much better. Take a J-Frame. It's a great gun. Guys buy them for their Wives and she can't hit anything with it. Put a little bigger grip on it to fit her hand and take the sting away. Dry fire the living crap out of it for her and smooth out the action. Start her out with a light load at first. 110 to 130 grain standard 38 Special. Paint the front sight so they can see it easy. When it is time to shoot, put the target 10 feet away and let her start close in. Before shooting, draw a picture of a set of sights so she knows what it looks like to have a proper sight picture. I could go on but, you get the idea.


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## Packard

I've recommended a S & W 351C for women. It shoots .22 magnums which carry about the same power as a .32, some claim close to a .380 but I don't think so.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Product: Model 43 C

It carries 7 rounds.

It weighs 11 ounces.

It is as reliable as the ammo is. (Premium factory rimfire is pretty good.)

No hammer to snag. So it can be pocket carried.

The .22 magnum has almost no recoil, but a lot of noise.

There are several new .22 magnum loads designed for 2" barrels.

Downside: The cost of ammo is the same as most center fire ammo. Not cheap like .22RF ammo.

Overall, I think this is a good choice. It is far more reliable than very small semi-autos, simpler to operate and simpler to clean. I would not put tens of thousands of rounds through the all aluminum cylinder--I think that cleaning it that often will cause a lot of wear. But it is guaranteed for life. You might have to send it back to the mother ship pretty often if you fire thousands of rounds through it.

But if I were to want that much practice I would get the .22RF sister and the cost of ammo would quickly pay for the extra gun.


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## Flyboy_451

The first thing that I would ask of anyone who has difficulty managing the recoil of a .38 special is "Have you sought out and received instruction from a competent instructor?" If you are trying to teach yourself, or learn from your significant other that happens to be a shooter, I would bet that the problem is in what is being taught, or rather, what is not being taught. Proper technique is full of subtleties that are difficult to spot and teach unless the instructor is first aware of them, and second competent at teaching. Being a good shot is not the same as being a good instructor. 

Then I would ask about what gun, and what load you find objectionable. Except for pretty extreme cases; very lightweight guns, poor fit to the hand, or well below average hand and arm strength, recoil management has more to do with proper technique than physical traits of the shooter. In nearly 20 years of providing firearms instruction, I have yet to find a person that could not be taught to comfortably manage the recoil of a .38 in anything but the lightest of guns. 

I do agree that it is not the best practice to recommend that a new shooter, male or female, begin with a small frame, lightweight revolver in .38, but this can be a very reasonable choice as long as it is prefaced with good instruction. While such guns are not particularly fun to shoot, they are not so miserable that they cannot be used to teach someone. The instructor makes more difference than the gun.

JW


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## denner

My sister in law has a lady smith 38 special and she can outshoot me and my brother, a true dead eye with the pistol w/ or without the laser, she shoots it better than any of the semi's they own. She's just not comfortable racking slides and never complains about the 38 recoil. I bought a S&W 637 for my mother, I tried semi's w/ her and that was a no go. Her finger did get sore and she was having problems squeezing the trigger in DA after about 20 rounds but did fairly well shooting it. The recoil is snappy and I like the Pachmayer's to help in that department. It's strickly a home defense pistol. The benefit of the 38 special revolver for those who generally won't be shooting any pistol but once a year is that you pick it up, aim, and squeeze the trigger. No racking slides, seating magazines, old spring fatigue, clearing jams etc......it's not an all day range pistol by any means, but it will do the job in it's simplicity and does it well. She shoots the pistol more than adequate and I for one would not want to be on the wrong end of her little 637. :smt083. The reason many believe the 38 special is good for women(myself included) is that it is the most simplistic, safe, and reliable platform to be had, especially for those who won't shoot it but once or twice a year and offers a cailber that has some thump.


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## Steve M1911A1

Why do people think a .38 Special is so great for women?

Mostly this whole idea is the fault of the "gunshop commandoes" who have read somewhere that the .45 semi-auto is "too much gun" for even the menfolk.
Not that any of these fools have ever shot a pistol, or, if they've shot them, none of them have had any success doing so. That's why they're "gunshop commandoes," rather than knowledgeable shooters.
They think that "You need a little gun for the little lady."

Well, the .38 Special revolver could be OK for a woman who is learning to shoot, but it should have a relatively long barrel, it should be relatively heavy, and it should have carefully-fitted, hand-filling grips.
It definitely should not be "a little gun for the little lady."

Short-barrelled .38s with small, concealable grips recoil with a vicious snap.
This is not the sort of gun for a beginner.

(The other answer to "Why do people think a .38 Special is so great for women?" is: It's not necessarily the best, because you can hunt women with almost any reasonably-powerful handgun.)


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## scooter

I think a fair part of that comes from years gone by, My mother kept a ruger357 wit 4" bbl in her nightstand and pop had the ruger 44mag.
No insult or intention to demean ANYONE but the women of yesteryear were considerably more "hardy" than today.
Hell my youngest sister has a colt 45 with a 5.5" bbl and Ill bet she can out shoot a lot of people here(me too sometimes).


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## stevehenry1

I have personally recommended revolvers to women, but based on certain reasons. My ex-wife, who was a big woman, could shoot a .45 revolver without any problems. BUT she couldn't load a Beretta 92 magazine OR work the slide. She wanted a .38 Special. BUT I would NEVER recommend any snub-nosed or Alloy framed revolver.-a 4in or more steel model is better And I would recommend they go to the local range and rent one first to see how she liked it.


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## GCBHM

Old thinking. Most men think women are incompetent when it comes to guns. Anyone who thinks all women need to start with a .38 revolver is really saying they are sexist, and probably incompetent.


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## Lee Hunter

My wife and I shop at gun shops together, and we've experienced such nonsense from sales reps just trying to obtain their commission by quickly duping what they mistakenly considered to be just another dumb woman.

.22 rimfires and .380s are recommended for women about as much as .38s. We've had the Glock 42 shoved in our faces at three different shops so far before my wife purchased her Glock 19/G4, which she has become quite proficient with; even when using +P+ ammo.


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## GCBHM

Lee, my first recommendation to most anyone, woman or man, who has never shot a pistol is the Glock 19. I'm partial to the Gen4 b/c the grip is a little smaller, which fits my hand better than the previous generations, but it is quite simply the best CC platform in my opinion. I have the Glock 42, and love it, but it isn't what I would recommend for a first time gun buyer. My wife chose the M&P Shield in 9mm, but her out shooting my Glock 17 and 26. She did NOT like the 26, but she loves my Glock 17. We rented the Shield, and she liked it best for her EDC gun, and I traded my G26 on a Shield for her, and I bought a Glock 19 for myself. She is a petite 5'3" at 120lbs.


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## Tip

Yeah -- wife usually asks those kinds of pushy idiots how their choice of guns matches up to "her other two". Gets lot of surprised looks when she mentioned they are a H&K P30 and a P229.


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## GCBHM

Both fine choices.


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## Bisley

I've been trying to interest my wife in shooting for over 40 years. She has nothing against guns and is afraid of almost nothing, much less a little recoil. The first handgun she ever took an interest in was a 4" S&W Model 10 (good taste, I think), so I coaxed her to the range with it, and then got her to shoot my Model 63 .22 first. She shot it at 7 yards until the bulls eye was obliterated, so I moved her up to the .38 and she continued to shoot well with it, without even a comment on the recoil, which was light and smooth.

The point, here, is that she can now operate a double-action revolver, in an extreme emergency. Ideally, she would practice with me, a lot, and become proficient with a variety of guns. But, it ain't gonna happen. She is perfectly content that she can operate any one of several revolvers I have, and even hit where she aims, up close. This is a small victory in itself, and if I can just drag her out to shoot occasionally (just to 'humor' me), I may eventually turn her into a decent marksman. 

Could I have had this modest success with her, with a semi-auto? Maybe, but in her mind they are complicated and ugly, and she has no real interest in shooting, anyway, so learning to rack the slide and load the magazines, however simple, were just things she considered annoying. However incorrect the idea that revolvers are simpler may be, many people hold this idea and won't be shaken from it because they don't really care, one way or the other.

So, I say (for these people), that it makes more sense to play to their pre-conceived notions than to try to force-feed them something they won't stick with and try to master. Besides, .38 Special is good enough for many self-defense scenarios, and that's a net gain from being completely at the mercy of someone stronger than you.


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## GCBHM

Bisley said:


> I've been trying to interest my wife in shooting for over 40 years. She has nothing against guns and is afraid of almost nothing, much less a little recoil. The first handgun she ever took an interest in was a 4" S&W Model 10 (good taste, I think), so I coaxed her to the range with it, and then got her to shoot my Model 63 .22 first. She shot it at 7 yards until the bulls eye was obliterated, so I moved her up to the .38 and she continued to shoot well with it, without even a comment on the recoil, which was light and smooth.
> 
> The point, here, is that she can now operate a double-action revolver, in an extreme emergency. Ideally, she would practice with me, a lot, and become proficient with a variety of guns. But, it ain't gonna happen. She is perfectly content that she can operate any one of several revolvers I have, and even hit where she aims, up close. This is a small victory in itself, and if I can just drag her out to shoot occasionally (just to 'humor' me), I may eventually turn her into a decent marksman.
> 
> Could I have had this modest success with her, with a semi-auto? Maybe, but in her mind they are complicated and ugly, and she has no real interest in shooting, anyway, so learning to rack the slide and load the magazines, however simple, were just things she considered annoying. However incorrect the idea that revolvers are simpler may be, many people hold this idea and won't be shaken from it because they don't really care, one way or the other.
> 
> So, I say (for these people), that it makes more sense to play to their pre-conceived notions than to try to force-feed them something they won't stick with and try to master. Besides, .38 Special is good enough for many self-defense scenarios, and that's a net gain from being completely at the mercy of someone stronger than you.


I don't disagree with you, but I think this is a separate issue from the intent of the OP. Women who have no interest in shooting a gun, let alone owning one, aren't going to have to contend with some gun salesman convincing them they need a .38 revolver. The likelihood of them ever stepping foot in a gun shop on their own is slim to none. My ex-wife was like that. She wasn't afraid of guns. She just had no interest in guns, therefore, she had no use for one.

My wife now isn't really a gun enthusiast, but she wants to have her own and she has learned to shoot it. She doesn't take it with her everywhere like I take mine, but she is proficient enough to use it when she feels the need, and it isn't a revolver.

The Model 10 is a fine pistol, btw.


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## Bisley

Most counter salesmen are just playing to the somewhat common idea that women want something small and pretty that they can immediately understand how it works. In my age group (over 60), that is a sales formula that has been fairly productive for them. A woman that likes practicing will quickly discover that there are other very good options, but a lot of them never progress that far. For them, a .38 snub-nose or a Bersa .380 may be good enough, with some luck on what kind of attacker they 'draw.'


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## paratrooper

Incompetency isn't limited to just females. Sure, there are some very competent female shooters out there. But, *GENERALLY* speaking, there are more that aren't all that competent.

The females that I know who shoot well, seem to prefer a smaller framed handgun for carry purposes. The "thing" about a revolver is that it's about as user friendly to shoot as it can get. No safety to switch off, no need to rack a slide to chamber a round, no limp-wristing issues, no need to load a magazine and maybe chip a fingernail, etc. And yes, females get very upset when they chip or break a fingernail. I know that cause I've seen my wife react to that issue many times.

All the females I know, don't go to the range on a routine basis. Getting them to go, is more or less, like pulling teeth. If they carry a handgun, they want something that they don't have to remember to do this and do that, prior to firing. They want something that they can put in their hand, point and shoot.

I know some of you are going to have a hissy fit and call me all sorts of names. This has been my experience and that's what I base this post on.

Ain't a damn thing in the world wrong with a female having a .38 revolver as a carry gun. If the ones you know are having an issue with recoil, tell them to get over it.


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## GCBHM

I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman carrying a revolver if that's what she wants, but that isn't what the OP was really talking about. And I'd tell a woman to get over recoil as quickly as I'd step into a busy street. I would agree "most" women aren't interested in firearms, and by default, do not take the time to become competent shooters. And yes, they do tend to get bent over a broken nail, but that doesn't mean that those women who do want to carry a gun want to be treated like they are incompetent. I don't know a single woman who likes to be treated like she's incompentent even if she is. 

Most women I know actually want to become competent in whatever they do, if they actually take the time to do it. My wife would not even consider a revolver as a carry gun after I discussed the difference btwn the types available. She listened, asked questions, and tried several types before she made up her own mind as to what she wanted, and she chose the M&P Shield 9mm. She likes her nails, gets upset when they break. She is educated with two degrees, isn't a gun fanatic, but does see the need and usefullness. And she wants her own gun. We go to the range regularly, and she really enjoys getting better with it. 

My ex-wife, on the other hand, preferred the revolver for exactly the reasons you mentioned. She was not at all interested in guns, didn't really want to become interested in guns, and really saw little use for them. She knew I was knowledgable about guns, but she didn't care. She didn't want one. She isn't a competent shooter, but she runs a medical practice and makes well over six figures. 

I said all that to say this. Although they are very different in this regard, neither one of them want to be treated like they are incompetent, and I think that is more along the lines of what the OP was addressing. Telling a woman to get over something is like...well, you'd be better off pissing on a spark plug.


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## RK3369

GCBHM said:


> Telling a woman to get over something is like...well, you'd be better off pissing on a spark plug.


lol, for sure. Have her shoot a bunch of different ones and decide for herself. Personally, I like a larger 9 because it allows for a lot less recoil transfer. I usually carry a 380 in my pocket and those are a pain to shoot, literally, because they are hard to hang onto and pass all the recoil through to you. Revolvers are not that great either with recoil, especially if you get into a 357. 38's are ok but that's also about the limit of what I like to shoot, and I've replaced the stock grips on almost all of mine with oversize grips. I have a Ruger LCR in 38spl and don't like shooting it, because it's a two finger only grip and transfers a lot of recoil. so I guess it really depends on what each person is comfortable with. I saw a girl on you tube the other day one hand shooting a S+W 500. Man, she didn't flinch at all. Surprised the heck out of me, I thought that gun would be over her head after the first shot, but she handled it well. Guess she had a little experience though.


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## Cait43

Might want to look into a 9mm revolver......
79920 9 mm Pitbull Rimless Revolver

Or a .380 revolver.........
Taurus Model 380 Mini-Revolver 2380121UL, 380 ACP, 1.75 in, Rubber Grip, Blue Finish, 5 Rd - Able Ammo


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## dahermit

In regard to .38 spl. having too much recoil for women, the problem could be that the gun is too small for the cartridge, not that the round is too much of a kicker. What I mean by that is, if the woman fired mostly 148 grain wad cutters with 2.7 Bullseye, out of a L or K frame four-inch gun, I doubt if there were be any recoil related problems. After extensive practice with such, and the basics mastered, she could be introduced to appropriate defense loads in her subbie with which should would only need to fire occasionally.


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## Overkill0084

> Why do people think a 38 special is so great for women?


Because in a lot of cases, it's a decent choice. My mom & step-mom as well as my wife have at various times carried and shot .38 snubbies. It's not really that odd of an idea.

With training and practice most people can be taught to handle nearly anything. A .38 snubbie isn't typically all that harsh for someone who has actually managed to practice with it now and again. Recoil management is a learned ability. If my step-mom can (still at age 72) shoot a compact 1911... well, the whole ".38 snubbie is too much for women" meme seems rather overdone. Her choice of carry gun? A S&W Titanium .38 snubbie.


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## ABD

Maybe it's not necessarily meant as an incompetent issue but typically every gun shop I have went into the sales person male or female has tried starting me off with a smaller gun. My main incentive in buying has been "is this too big or bulky for me" and although I can handle guns and the recoil on many, I do prefer my .380 because it is small and manageable for me in the cases I carry it for. I looked for something small enough to conceal without a holster. I can slip mine in my pockets and no one is the wiser. It's not a particular "fun" gun to shoot but it will work if I need it to. I prefer to shoot bigger guns just to shoot for fun. Anyway, I know the .380 isn't the 38 special but maybe I gave you a diff perspective. P.s. it doesn't bother me a bit to break a nail while shooting, cleaning, etc.. have a great day.


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## denner

Overkill0084 said:


> Because in a lot of cases, it's a decent choice. My mom & step-mom as well as my wife have at various times carried and shot .38 snubbies. It's not really that odd of an idea.
> 
> With training and practice most people can be taught to handle nearly anything. A .38 snubbie isn't typically all that harsh for someone who has actually managed to practice with it now and again. Recoil management is a learned ability. If my step-mom can (still at age 72) shoot a compact 1911... well, the whole ".38 snubbie is too much for women" meme seems rather overdone. Her choice of carry gun? A S&W Titanium .38 snubbie.


I agree, my 73 year old mother has a S&W 637 with the larger full size Pachmayr grip that she does fine with. Likewise, I've gotten her snap caps to practice with and she's had a training course and we go out and shoot occasionally.

I know I wouldn't want to break into her house uninvited. Most SD engagements are going to be at close quarters, coupled with the fact there are many different loadings 38 special where recoil can be very manageable. Plus a .38 will put a mean hurting on you (I know I wouldn't want to be tagged with one) and I prefer the caliber over .380

You need not worry about racking slides, magazines, safeties, etc...Just pick it up, aim if needed and pull the trigger and the likelihood of a malfunction with a S&W 637 is very small in my experience no matter how you hold it..


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## GCBHM

My mother, 75, also prefers a revolver. She has a Colt Det. Special that she carries, and she feels comfortable with it. She has shot some of my pistols, but does not like racking the slide. I don't think the issue is the revolver, but the assumption that a "woman" NEEDS a revolver b/c it is "simple" to operate, etc. If sales people would take the time to ask questions, try to find out what the woman is interested in, what her level of proficiency is and just treat her like a competent individual, there wouldn't be a problem. 

Of course this is not restricted to just guns. I've witnessed it in all avenues in life, and while they react differently, most women I know do not appreciate being treated like they are not capable of making an informed decision. Most will tell you if they have no idea what they are talking about if you just treat them normally and show you're willing to help them. Women are a lot better than men at asking for help.


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## ingramdr

I use to think the same thing until my daughter shot my Glock 19. Now she is a glock fan and I will be getting her the glock 22 gen 4 for Christmas.


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## Steve M1911A1

Overkill0084 said:


> Because in a lot of cases, it's a decent choice. My mom & step-mom as well as my wife have at various times carried and shot .38 snubbies. It's not really that odd of an idea.
> 
> With training and practice most people can be taught to handle nearly anything. A .38 snubbie isn't typically all that harsh for someone who has actually managed to practice with it now and again. Recoil management is a learned ability. If my step-mom can (still at age 72) shoot a compact 1911... well, the whole ".38 snubbie is too much for women" meme seems rather overdone. Her choice of carry gun? A S&W Titanium .38 snubbie.


Repeat after me: "_With training and practice_, most people can be taught to handle nearly everything."
Again: "_With training and practice_..."

Did Overkill and I mention _training_? And _practice_?


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## hillman

Re the thread title: because it is. There are umpteen .38 special loads in any respectable reloading manual, and many Smith Model 10 short barrels (and their copiers) out there. There's a load to fit every female hand. It usually ain't that far from her bed to the bedroom door, or from the stove to the kitchen door. BANG-BANG - the scumbag is hurting.


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## OldManMontgomery

*Not just for women*

I don't think a .38 Special is 'so great' for women. I think .38 Special is just great. I think some of the revolvers chambered for .38 Special (like the S&W 'Chief's Special) is a speciality gun and not for general use without some prior background.

I would suggest a middle sized revolver (S&W K frame) in .38 Special as a starter. Make sure the grips fit the shooter and begin with wadcutter ammunition. Not much of a transition to the 158 grain 'service' load level (either factory if one has money or hand loaded if one prefers). Then a bit of a jump to the heavy loaded cartridges like Buffalo Bore or judicious but high end reloads. They've worked with all of my wives and give suitable results, depending on the interest of the shooter.


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## Steve M1911A1

OldManMontgomery said:


> ...They've worked with all of my wives...


Ah, the pleasures of Islam. You have the permitted four, I assume? :smt033
But what about your concubines? What have you given them? :yawinkle:

(I apologize for that. I'm something of an English-grammar Fascist. And I just can't resist making a joke.)


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## bluewave

VAMarine said:


> All I have to say about it has all ready been said *HERE,* and probably said better:


I bought my wife a .38 S & W Model 36 several years ago when she was doing some real estate related work where she needed some protection. She took a self defense course and never complained about shooting the .38. However, she has not fired it since! I'm not sure I had ever fired it until recently. I got my CC license recently and really enjoyed firing my instructor's Browning 9mm. In fact I enjoyed it so much I now have 2 Glock 9mm and fire them almost weekly since they are fun to shoot. I took my wife's .38 to the range too and fired it. Now I know one reason she hasn't fired it since. It is not fun to shoot. Don't make the mistake I did and buy your wife or girlfriend a gun that you think would be the right one for them. If at all possible, let them fire a few and then let them decide.


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## Kennydale

I have a Ruger LCR in .38. I can barely hit the target. My wife cannot even hit the target (It's her gun). I think its a matter of getting in more practice to learn the trigger better.


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## Steve M1911A1

Kennydale said:


> I have a Ruger LCR in .38. I can barely hit the target. My wife cannot even hit the target (It's her gun). I think its a matter of getting in more practice to learn the trigger better.


I'll bet that there are two separate issues:
1. Trigger control, of course, and
2. Maybe also a before-the-shot flinch.

Although it's a necessary skill, it is quite difficult to master a double-action trigger.
The elements are: (a) a strong, consistent grip; (b) the ability to "isolate" the trigger finger, and move it independently; and (c) not have the rest of the fingers "follow" the index finger and, thereby, "milk" the grip and rotate the pistol's muzzle (usually, for a rightie, to the left and downward).

When confronted by the snappy, twisty recoil of the short-barreled revolver, many newer shooters tend to loosen the grip on the gun, usually just immediately before the shot. The intent of this grip-loosening, a form of flinch, is to "escape" from the sharp twisting motion that the gun produces in recoil.
This is a serious error for two reasons. First, it makes the shot inaccurate, of course. But also, second, it does nothing to protect the hand from the recoil impulse. In fact, it actually makes the recoil impulse worse, by giving the pistol a "running start" just before it slams into the hand.
The only solution to the pistol's sharp, twisty recoil is to grasp the pistol as tightly and as strongly as possible, and to maintain that strong grip without fail, all the way through the shot and also through the shooter's follow-through.

See whether those bits of advice help you and your wife. Then report back.


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## hillman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ah, the pleasures of Islam. You have the permitted four, I assume? :smt033
> But what about your concubines? What have you given them? :yawinkle:
> 
> (I apologize for that. I'm something of an English-grammar Fascist. And I just can't resist making a joke.)


Nothing grammatically wrong with that statement, or with the sense of it. The 'have worked' opens up the time frame.


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## denner

OldManMontgomery said:


> I don't think a .38 Special is 'so great' for women. I think .38 Special is just great. I think some of the revolvers chambered for .38 Special (like the S&W 'Chief's Special) is a speciality gun and not for general use without some prior background.
> 
> I would suggest a middle sized revolver (S&W K frame) in .38 Special as a starter. Make sure the grips fit the shooter and begin with wadcutter ammunition. Not much of a transition to the 158 grain 'service' load level (either factory if one has money or hand loaded if one prefers). Then a bit of a jump to the heavy loaded cartridges like Buffalo Bore or judicious but high end reloads. They've worked with all of my wives and give suitable results, depending on the interest of the shooter.


Exactly, .38 Special is an excellent option for anyone, not only woman. It's been extremely popular for over a century, reasonably priced, has perhaps the widest range of loadings of any pistol caliber out there.

Generally well stocked at any gunstore including wally world and has a proven track record for stopping man sized threats with excellent expansion and beyond 12" inches of penetration. I'd much prefer the performance and load options of 38 Special +P to any caliber .380 and below.

If recoil or control is an issue, change grips to a Pachmayer or move up to a longer, larger or heavier high quality revolver which would tame the hottest of any 38 Special +P.:smt023


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## OldManMontgomery

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ah, the pleasures of Islam. You have the permitted four, I assume? :smt033
> But what about your concubines? What have you given them? :yawinkle:


You have committed an obvious but illogical error. I am not Muslim, I am rather unabashedly Christian. Under the laws of the nation in which I live I can have several - I don't think there is a legal limit - wives, but only sequentially. (I'm divorced three times.)

Concubines. Since I'm attempting to be transparent, I've had two or possibly three 'serious girlfriends' whom I did not marry. I did in fact offer much in the way of firearms instruction and advice. I don't believe I ever gave one of the 'unofficial' ones a firearm.

Not a great track record. So I have decided - with the Lord's advice and consent - to retire from the field of physical relationships. It costs too much in money and pain.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> (I apologize for that. I'm something of an English-grammar Fascist. And I just can't resist making a joke.)


Not a problem. One of the side tenets (not the main one) of Christianity is the ability to honestly look at one's self; perhaps even laugh. (Some are better at self-inspection, some are better at not chasing skirts.) Not to mention I rather like words and correct grammar and diction. Momma tried to fetch me up proper.


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## OldManMontgomery

bluewave said:


> I bought my wife a .38 S & W Model 36 several years ago when she was doing some real estate related work where she needed some protection. She took a self defense course and never complained about shooting the .38. However, she has not fired it since! I'm not sure I had ever fired it until recently. I got my CC license recently and really enjoyed firing my instructor's Browning 9mm. In fact I enjoyed it so much I now have 2 Glock 9mm and fire them almost weekly since they are fun to shoot. I took my wife's .38 to the range too and fired it. Now I know one reason she hasn't fired it since. It is not fun to shoot. Don't make the mistake I did and buy your wife or girlfriend a gun that you think would be the right one for them. If at all possible, let them fire a few and then let them decide.


One of my pet peeves and 'causes'. Too small an arm in either overall size or grip size. Men buying a handgun for a woman and many women make the mistake of buying a 'little' gun in the mistaken theory it will be easier to shoot. (Or it's 'cute'.) A defensive sidearm need not be absolutely without recoil, but the grip must be large enough for the user - don't care who - can get a decent hold on the arm, control it, and not worry about dropping the silly thing in the heat of the moment.

Of course, a smaller, lighter gun is easier to carry and or conceal. But it's harder to shoot well. (In philosophy we call this a 'trade off'. Most other places, too. )

I consider the model 36 a 'speciality' gun (I have one, have had others). For most uses, I would start with a medium barrel length K frame or smaller Ruger.

And I like and fully endorse the idea of shooting a few prior to purchase. Talk to friends.


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## Babbalou1956

Snubbies aren't the easiest guns to start with. Simple to use but not easy to hit with without a lot of practice. My wife does ok with our LCR 38 but I plan on having her try out a medium/small 9mm soon or a larger revolver. One thing I learned last weekend; grip size has a HUGE impact on accuracy with snubbies. I have big hands & I experimented with 3 other grips. The Hogue Bantam grip, the Hogue Tamer that comes on the 3" LCR & the Pachmayr Diamond Pro. Stock grip feels good but I thought I'd try a 3 finger grip. Noticed less muzzle rise & tighter groups. I shot best with the Pachmayr. I thought that LCR was more accurate than the one with the Tamer. So I switched grips. The one with the Pachmayr again shot the tightest groups. Amazed what a difference that made. The Pachmayr fills my hand, sort of round like holding a plumb. I think the smaller grips were twisting in my hand when firing, especially the tiny Bantam grip. In my front pocket Kydex holsters the Pachmayr is about 1/2" below the top of my pocket & my shirts hang over them. The Tamer felt good but was thinner, maybe a good choice for smaller hands. Will order another Pachmayr for my 2nd LCR.


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## netmaker

2 years back I bought my wife a .38 Taurus, Snub Nose ( ultra- light) with a hammer. 5 shot capacity.

My reasoning to her as we went gun shopping was simple:
Small frame
Lightweight
not nearly as much recoil as .357 or .44
Hammer always let you know if its cocked or uncocked...and makes a more even trigger pull
....and historically, for 80-90 years, the .38 was the policeman's choice all over the USA.

As a side note: How many times do you here about shoot outs with police and the suspect was taken to the hospital in serious condition? Sure a 9mm can kill, so can any of my .22 ...if I hit you just right. But you do not hear a lot of reports of perpetrators getting hit with a .38 HP and live to tell you about the incident.

My biggest hope is that my wife never has to shoot any one......but if she does, I want them dropped like a _dead load _on the spot.


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## Darkstar888

Everyone makes the assumption that women know very little about guns and that semi autos are just too complicated. Or that they can't handle heavier recoil perhaps. I think they should be presented with all the options and make an informed decision on their own.


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## Steve M1911A1

Darkstar888 said:


> Everyone makes the assumption that women know very little about guns and that semi autos are just too complicated. Or that they can't handle heavier recoil perhaps. I think they should be presented with all the options and make an informed decision on their own.


...And a fair bit of preparatory instruction helps a lot, too.


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## bykerhd

I use to think, and, I admit, recommend K-frame size Smith .38s with 3 or 4 inch barrels for men or women wanting an easy to operate, reliable bed stand gun with easily manageable recoil.
I still would IF the person were strong enough, able to operate it and could manage the recoil.

In my limited experience, women aren't usually like men about recoil.
Most I've met won't shoot it if it hurts, stings, recoils too violently, too much blast, etc.

My daughter will shoot anything ? and has fired .44 magnums, 9mms, .40 S&Ws and more, as well as.50 BMG calibre bolt actions.
My wife likes her .22s, period.
I was quite surprised when I discovered my daughter's tall, 5'10", and quite strong daughter lacked the finger strength, and length ? to reliably pull the trigger of a K-22, double action anyway.

Maybe a slightly smaller Ruger SP 101 for the ladies of the family might work ? 
No idea what calibre they might actually shoot.
Otherwise, it will likely be a semi-auto of some sort for them.


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## SouthernBoy

netmaker said:


> 2 years back I bought my wife a .38 Taurus, Snub Nose ( ultra- light) with a hammer. 5 shot capacity.
> 
> My reasoning to her as we went gun shopping was simple:
> Small frame
> Lightweight
> not nearly as much recoil as .357 or .44
> Hammer always let you know if its cocked or uncocked...and makes a more even trigger pull
> ....and historically, for 80-90 years, the .38 was the policeman's choice all over the USA.
> 
> As a side note: How many times do you here about shoot outs with police and the suspect was taken to the hospital in serious condition? Sure a 9mm can kill, so can any of my .22 ...if I hit you just right. But you do not hear a lot of reports of perpetrators getting hit with a .38 HP and live to tell you about the incident.
> 
> My biggest hope is that my wife never has to shoot any one......*but if she does, I want them dropped like a dead load on the spot.*


This almost never happens so don't depend on it. The myth of so-called "knock down" power is just that... a myth. The only way someone is going to drop like a "dead load" is if you destroy their central nervous system or sever their upper spinal column.


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## Blackhawkman

Some salesmen just want to impress women when showing them handguns or rifles. My advice would be to try a 9mm and a 38(shooting 38 specials) and compare. I let my niece shoot my model 28 Smith and Glock 19. She shot both very well but she said the 28 was a little heavy while the 19 was more comfortable to shoot. My niece then went and tried the slim glock 42? and bought it! Poor salesmanship is often the case for distressing shooting. jmo


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## desertman

Assuming that we're talking about revolvers. This question should apply to both men and women. If a .38 is great for a women then why shouldn't it be just as great for a man? It all depends on what any particular individual is capable of firing accurately that has adequate stopping power. Taking into consideration the size, weight, and caliber of any particular type of handgun including how the gun feels in the hand of the buyer. Maybe because of their small hands about the only issue that some women may have with some semi auto's is racking the slide? My wife who is small can fire them okay but has trouble racking the slide on most of my semi auto's. You do not have that issue with a revolver. They may also have issues loading magazines without the aid of a tool. Obviously every woman is different regarding size and strength. Same for men.


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## CW

I regularly advocate a 22 magnum for women who have a recoil issue.

But then one should ask why do they have an issue?

Perhaps a leading reason for the 38 special is that many guys will get their gal a 357. A nice heavy gun will really help in delivering an accurate powerful cartridge.
If you step down to +p or regular special the recoil is a lot less, and 9mm in moon clips should be a breeze.

Once you cut off the barrel or pack power in to a small purse gun, you loose so much weight that the pistol really requires all new disciplines and lots of practice.
Ever wonder why the comp pistols have weights added?

Yet if weight and size are important then you need to either downsize the cartridge .32 auto - 22 mag, or learn to shoot the featherweights.

38 special is fine for a lady who packs a 6 inch N/L frame with a full shroud in her handbag. It would probably have a better psychological effect than a mouse gun.

A CZ75 or 92F would certainly say hit the pike and offer power and control without the hand shock. [there is probably a reason why so many police and militaries choose them]
Ladies certainly have a few additional carry options.

A great trainer can make all the difference with a quality pistol. 
[for my first few years of shooting I though the .45 auto would tear my arm off - a .357mag and an x-Air Force pistol champ cured me of that misnomer ]


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## Steve M1911A1

CW said:


> ...A nice heavy gun will really help in delivering an accurate powerful cartridge...Once you cut off the barrel or pack power in to a small purse gun, you loose so much weight that the pistol really requires all new disciplines and lots of practice.
> Ever wonder why the comp pistols have weights added?...A great trainer can make all the difference with a quality pistol.
> [for my first few years of shooting I though the .45 auto would tear my arm off - a .357mag and an x-Air Force pistol champ cured me of that misnomer ]


Jean, who stands under five feet tall and who weighs less than 100 pounds when fully dressed and soaking wet, learned to shoot using one of my standard-size, standard-weight, M1911A1 pistols in .45 ACP. She was shooting 230-grain bullets over six grains of 231.
What made that possible? First of all, she was prepared by means of two weeks of dry-fire practice to teach her the basic techniques. Second, a heavy pistol's mass absorbs a lot of recoil. So by the time she was actually firing live ammunition, she was fully confident, and she was able to fully enjoy the experience.


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## desertman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Jean, who stands under five feet tall and who weighs less than 100 pounds when fully dressed and soaking wet, learned to shoot using one of my standard-size, standard-weight, M1911A1 pistols in .45 ACP. She was shooting 230-grain bullets over six grains of 231.
> What made that possible? First of all, she was prepared by means of two weeks of dry-fire practice to teach her the basic techniques. Second, a heavy pistol's mass absorbs a lot of recoil. So by the time she was actually firing live ammunition, she was fully confident, and she was able to fully enjoy the experience.


My wife can handle 'em too. Except for the .44 Magnums. After a cylinder full she hands it back to me. And that's with a 7 1/2 inch Redhawk! I don't think she'll even consider the 2 3/4 inch one.


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## Craigh

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I'll bet that there are two separate issues:
> 1. Trigger control, of course, and
> 2. Maybe also a before-the-shot flinch.
> 
> Although it's a necessary skill, it is quite difficult to master a double-action trigger.
> The elements are: (a) a strong, consistent grip; (b) the ability to "isolate" the trigger finger, and move it independently; and (c) not have the rest of the fingers "follow" the index finger and, thereby, "milk" the grip and rotate the pistol's muzzle (usually, for a rightie, to the left and downward).


As usual from Steve, this is sage advice. Truly.

Also, I've seen a lot of discussion in this thread and others about practice being the key to improving both recoil management and accuracy. I think this advice is only somewhat true and needs the added caveat in advising such practice be in good habit, like Steve's advice, not bad habits. Get a beginner on the range using novice technique and that technique can be practiced for days, weeks, and months on end and will result in the same lack of recoil management to go with poor accuracy. In fact, practicing poor technique will just result in this technique becoming habitual and a lot more frustration to overcome later. Best to study up when or before you get your first gun. Maybe hire a trainer with a good track record in competition.

In my opinion, the important aspects are:

Trigger Control
Sight Alignment
Target Alignment

Steve explained trigger control very well. He knows what he's talking about, IMO. Place the gun into the webbing of your hand around halfway between the forefinger and thumb. There's a little crease there. Grip the gun tightly, but not so tightly as to cut up blood supply. Then the key is to use the index finger to pull back as if it were separate from the rest of that hand/arm. It's almost like you should have a third arm with that forefinger on the end, pulling straight back on the trigger. I don't like using the term "squeeze" the trigger because few know what that really means. I much better like pulling straight back with an isolated finger. With a lot of practice, one can get that right and then slowly speed it up with time.

Whenever my accuracy is suffering, I know I can go back to trigger control as my first basic and get back on track. If I don't, I know it will just keep sliding downhill. I also think this one is one of the longest to learn correctly, but dry firing can really help. This is also why I prefer a smooth wide trigger on a double action. It allows the pad of my finger to move a little to maintain that straight back isolated pull.

As far as sight alignment is concerned, I think those pictures showing the front sight in the notch of the rear sight can be detrimental in teaching this important part of sighting. The problem is that most of these aides don't show the rear sight or the target out of focus and they should be. In fact, the target will be pretty much blurry, if you're properly focused on the front sight. Again, if a beginner doesn't know or understand this, they can practice until the cows come home and will likely not improve their accuracy. Even seasoned shooters can forget this and though they might focus on the front sight to begin with, at the last second will look downrange at the target or check alignment of the rear site just before the bang. They often will call the flier, but then do it again and again. It's habit and must be practiced to keep it up over time.

Target alignment is the last thing to worry about. Remember, if the sight alignment is off by a smidgen on the target, you'll miss by a country mile. If that front and rear sight are lined up properly, but that front sight off a smidgen on the target, you'll just miss by that smidgen. I advise beginners, including myself, to slowly pull using good trigger control and maintaining my focus on the front sight until the bang. Go ahead and not worry about how that front sight is moving around a bit on that blurry target. This is one reason using a blank sheet of paper for a target can really tighten your groups.

Anyway, the above is my personal opinion so please take it that way. Your mileage may vary and hopefully I didn't make too many typos. ;-)

Take care,

Craig


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## rld1017

I had a 38 airlight with laser . My wife now carries it and has no problem with recoil because I cheat. I have reloaded enough in my life I use a light load with a light bullet. Think I could hit it with a ball bat. Very slow but at 100 foot it would be deadly. This is only self protection. For practice a 22 revolver worked the best With the 38 first round is a shot shell second and third a light loads after that + P hollow point . Little practice and a 38 perfect for protection Single action light pull . If she is scared and danger over most women would be very shaken. This I have seen several times. At this point I would be more worried about lowering the hammer. 38 revolver is great and safe. Laser set for 30 foot distance any closer throw the gun away danger is to close. Have someone run from a stop to a person reaching for there gun Gun owner will never get gun up and may be taken away. been trained by the best.


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## Blackhawkman

Someone gave that woman poor advice when buying her first handgun. Maybe a 380 or 9mm handgun would have been better. She could have tried out other calibers before buying, since she was already at a match. Hmmm?


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## Babbalou1956

When my wife went from "No guns in the house" to "We should get a gun" the first one I bought was a Ruger LCR 38 so that's what she started with. She did well but if I had a do over I would have bought a 3-4" .22 revolver first so she could just focus on hitting the target, then later try the .38. She tried a variety of revolvers & semi-autos in a beginner gun class & said she prefers revolvers. Thinking I might get her a 3" LCRx .22 for plinking & practice. Oh, I got a box of 38 Short Colt ammo, recoil was VERY mild, less than wadcutters but accuracy was bad so, not good for training. Maybe the long jump to the forcing cone.


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## Steve M1911A1

My experience, both coaching strangers and teaching my wife (Jean), leads me to suggest that the very best beginner's pistol is a full-size, full-weight, all-steel centerfire semi-auto.
I've always successfully used a 1911 in .45 ACP, as a teaching tool; I am unsure whether the 9mm is as good a teaching tool as is the .45, because of the quality (not the quantity) of 9mm recoil.

Once she was competent with the .45, I gave her coached tryout time with all of the different pistols available to us. She tried them all, including our two very different .38 Special revolvers.
Those two .38 Special revolvers were very quickly rejected. It was the _quality of the recoil_ (not the quantity) which caused them to be rejected.

Since she was already a well-practiced and effective pistol shooter, I also let her try a mini-pistol in .380 ACP: the Kel-Tec P-3AT.
Surprise: She chose that as her EDC!

But remember: "A little gun for the little lady" is a very foolish concept, unless the "little lady" is already a very competent pistol shooter.


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## Bisley

I am not an expert with firearms, but I have a lifetime of experience with the basics. So, I have taught quite a few newbies in the fundamentals, and have always admonished them to seek professional help for SD training in handguns, or long range help with a rifle. Most don't, because once they learn to hit targets consistently and to handle a weapon safely, they tend to be satisfied with self-teaching methods. Also, they realize that with good fundamentals, they are still superior to most of the other shooters that they come in contact with.

I like to start a new adult shooter out with a .22 in either a revolver or a semi-auto, depending on their personal preference. I've found that most can be taught to hit a target consistently in an hour or two, and quickly step them up to a 9mm or .38 Special. My CZ-75B with Kadet .22 conversion kit works great for this, because the platform stays familiar during the transition to a more powerful round, and it is heavy enough to make recoil negligible. 

If they prefer revolvers, I start with a S&W Model 63, which is a double-action .22 that works exactly the same as every other double-action revolver. I may let them shoot a little bit in SA mode, but quickly transition them to DA mode only, if they are hitting the target consistently in SA mode. This increases the degree of difficulty significantly, and it usually takes more time to move on to center fire revolvers. When they become bored with the .22, I'll switch them to a S&W Model 10 in .38 Special, a very sweet shooter that is a very natural progression from the Model 63. Most adults will settle down and become good students within about two hours. 

I offer to supervise them once or twice more, if they they think they need it, but most are ready to go pick out a handgun to buy and start practicing on their own. Most will eventually decide that they are completely self-taught, but I have the satisfaction of knowing that the safety and fundamental marksmanship came from me, and enabled them to teach themselves without endangering others.


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## bluewave

*There are Honest Gun Salesman*

There are some honest gun salesmen. My wife who definitely had no interest in guns, saw a need for one since she was traveling out of town and working alone. One day while out of town she went into a gun shop to buy a pistol. I was not aware she did this until later. She came home and told me about her experience. She said the salesman said "Lady the way your hands are shaking, I would never consider selling you a pistol". And he didn't. Later I got her a pistol. Although she took a familiarization course and fired it, she still has no interest in guns. She hasn't shot it since and .38 S & W snub nose lays in the drawer. This was a bad choice on my part since it is not fun to shoot. I shoot often but almost never take the .38 to the range.


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## stonebuster

Until 3 weeks ago my wife, who's 63, had never fired a gun. A couple months ago she said she'd like to go to the indoor range with me and try shooting. I gave her the NRA basic handgun training book and told her to read it more than once. She wanted to start with a revolver and not one of my 357's so I found a 1968 single six Ruger SA 22lr 5.5 in barrel for sale reasonably priced for her first trip to the range. I had her handle and get comfortable with the gun at home and asked her to re-read the book regarding sight picture/sight alignment/trigger control ect. I picked a time at the range when it wasn't very busy and brass wasn't flying. She was very nervous and hands shaking and her shots while hitting the paper were all over. After 80 rounds she was more relaxed and shooting respectably with a few in the bullseye with an occasional flier. The third trip she finished with 4 bulls and 2 just outside (at 21ft.). She was all smiles. Now she says"I want to shoot the Sig P-226 9mm." She needed to get comfortable and get a little confidence before dealing with the recoil. I don't think she'll ever want to carry, but I'm sure she will be a competent shooter with practice. We have her father's 1967 Colt Trooper 357 mag service revolver from when he was with the state police which will be her first experience with 38 special before long. She'll take her time and find a caliber and gun that suits her after trying them at the range. I know if I pushed her to shoot a gun that intimidated her she wouldn't have enjoyed the experience and wouldn't have done it again. What works for one may not for another.


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## berettatoter

stonebuster said:


> Until 3 weeks ago my wife, who's 63, had never fired a gun. A couple months ago she said she'd like to go to the indoor range with me and try shooting. I gave her the NRA basic handgun training book and told her to read it more than once. She wanted to start with a revolver and not one of my 357's so I found a 1968 single six Ruger SA 22lr 5.5 in barrel for sale reasonably priced for her first trip to the range. I had her handle and get comfortable with the gun at home and asked her to re-read the book regarding sight picture/sight alignment/trigger control ect. I picked a time at the range when it wasn't very busy and brass wasn't flying. She was very nervous and hands shaking and her shots while hitting the paper were all over. After 80 rounds she was more relaxed and shooting respectably with a few in the bullseye with an occasional flier. The third trip she finished with 4 bulls and 2 just outside (at 21ft.). She was all smiles. Now she says"I want to shoot the Sig P-226 9mm." She needed to get comfortable and get a little confidence before dealing with the recoil. I don't think she'll ever want to carry, but I'm sure she will be a competent shooter with practice. We have her father's 1967 Colt Trooper 357 mag service revolver from when he was with the state police which will be her first experience with 38 special before long. She'll take her time and find a caliber and gun that suits her after trying them at the range. I know if I pushed her to shoot a gun that intimidated her she wouldn't have enjoyed the experience and wouldn't have done it again. What works for one may not for another.


Good story. I like hearing those. My wife will, "every blue moon", go shooting with me. She has shot most of my handguns, does not like anything above 9mm, but she can shoot well. She would never CC either, although I wish she would. :smt1099


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## Illyia

The gun a person is carrying will always beat out the one left at home. While there certainly are a lot of women, and it would appear, even more men interested in guns and shooting, there are many more- of both genders who simply aren't, and when such people do become interested in having a gun, it's usually secondary to the influence of a "gun person." My wife...and the one before that...and the one before that, plus a number of girlfriends and female acquaintances have virtually all be "interested" in guns only secondary to my existence in their lives. Almost 20 years ago when I was still enthralled with the semiauto pistol as the be-all, end-all for carry, I bought my wife a Tarus PT-111 DAO 10 shot, 18 ounce, 9mm. Aside from having a DA trigger pull and break too heavy for her slender fingers it was, and still is a great little pistol that has proven 100% reliable. After I did a little trigger work on it, the DA pull softened up nicely and she could pull the trigger through using just finger. Whereas she learned to retract the slide, it has always been a difficult manipulation for her. She went to the range with me several times in those "early years" and was a pretty good shot. To this day she still keeps that Taurus in a ready-to-grab spot, but the thing is, once the kids started coming and other things consumed her interest, going to the range and being "proficient" was the very last thing on her priorities list. And even though her little Taurus is every bit as small and concealable as all the other "Johnny-come-lately" bigger name brands, the little gun has spent most of its life in the house. Eventually I decided to get her a S&W M642 PRO .38 Special. At 14 ounces empty it's a solid 4 ounces lighter than the Taurus, is completely smooth and snag-free, is DAO with a factory trigger that she can EASILY stroke-through. Plus, the gun can easily drop into a front pocket, a coat pocket, a back pocket, a purse (yes I know a woman should not carry her gun in her purse - but they do), and she never needs to wonder if it's loaded or chambered....no need to interpret a chamber loaded indicator, crack the slide, rack the slide, or check the magazine. No need to worry about lubrication...even a bone dry DA pocket J-frame will punch out several cylinders of slugs without the first concern over lubrication status. As others have stated, the J-frame is truly a grab it and go gun. NOW, when she leaves the house, she often reaches up and grabs her -642...because the "gun" proved to her it was more in line with HER usage criteria.

Consider a few real fact. MOST people will never need a gun for self defense...and should that situation arise, most people will likely never fire a shot, since "most" would-be assailants have no interest in even the remote possibility of soaking up a bullet...because UNLIKE TV, even a single wound from a "piddly" .38 "snubbie" is a serious day-ruiner! And finally, should a person need to pull the trigger, FEW ever fire more than a "few" shots. On top of this, few but the most dedicated CC devotee even carries a "reload"...so what's in the gun is what they have. So rounds count is also part of the statistical probability calculus...5 shots a snubbie, or 7-8 in a slimline 9mm pocket-size auto, with each having it's strengths and weaknesses. The snubbie's only practical weakness is capacity. The compact auto's practical weaknesses are more...it must be gripped and fired properly to avoid malfunction. It cannot be fired from INSIDE a coat pocket! Well, it CAN, as long as one is content with just ONE shot for the moment. IF it fails to function, the user MUST be dedicated enough to instantly go into a clearing drill...something NOBODY is going to have time for in a CQB situation. The revolver on the other hand requires basically ONE "manual of operation"...yank the trigger fast and furiously...oh, and if possible press the gun DEEP into the attacker's body while so doing to gain the added benefit of massive tissue damage due to all the expanding gas being blasted inside the body! Yet ANOTHER thing one dare not attempt with an auto...not even a SA XD.

So choosing to carry a J-frame isn't at all as simple as being lazy, or disinterested, or lacking in knowledge, skill, common sense, or genius inspiration. It's about the mental calculation we all do when walking out the door..."what are the odds" so to speak. When it comes to wives, or even husbands who aren't "gun people," a compact, lightweight revolver is just as "right" of a choice as any other. About a year ago I added a S&W M43C 8-shot .22LR to the "stable"...11 ounces...and barely 12 ounces loaded. Eight rounds of Aguila 60 gr. SSS fired up close and person is a serious "fight stopper"...just check out Brassfetcher's gel test on it. And before anyone gets too far down the lane about the caliber being too small, let me remind the reader of all those endless posts claiming the likelihood of stopping someone is "all about shot placement..." because if it is, then 8 well-placed .22's are every bit as "good" as 8 well-placed 9mm slugs! Now my wife prefers to grab the M43C.

Now, as to the need to run to a range and bust caps to be "competent" to use a pistol...not really. Not at all. The employment of ANY form of deadly force begins in the mind with a clear understanding, focus, and commitment to saving one's life over being a victim. After that, the choice of "weapon" is quite secondary, and frankly, simple home practice developing carry and retrieval techniques, and shooting goes a LONG way toward field proficiency without ever having fired the first shot. Growing up "poor" we seldom fired centerfire ammunition "for practice" but we handled and understood our guns well enough that when the time came making a precision hit was "easy." "Back in the day" we simply didn't burn through hundreds or thousands of rounds just to knock the center out of a target over and over again. Even when I went in the Army that same "frugal" approach to training was taught....the weapon was learned first, the shooting methodology, then range qualification. All that is to point out that a great many people NEVER fire their personal defense weapon until the day comes when they do so for real....maybe it's not "gun PC" to say this, but it is factual.

I often choose to drop a J-frame into a front pocket simply because it's easy and the odds of actually needing it are ever so slim. At the same time, I just as often drop my FiveseveN in the same front pocket stoked with 21 rounds of 40 gran Vmax handloads velocity tested to just under 2,000 fps/350fpe. At other times when I take my kids to the park I'll carry the FiveseveN with an extra 5 mags for 121 rounds on-tap and available...just so the reader sees I understand the value of going "well armed" when I deem circumstances a bit more risky.

One last consideration....cruise on over to Luckygunner.com and check out the ballistics gel tests of various .38 Spl+P rounds fired from a 2" barrel...the "anemic" round produces surprisingly impressive wound channels!


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## Steve M1911A1

Illyia said:


> ...Now, as to the need to run to a range and bust caps to be "competent" to use a pistol...not really. Not at all...frankly, simple home practice developing carry and retrieval techniques, and shooting goes a LONG way toward field proficiency without ever having fired the first shot...


I totally, completely, irreversibly disagree with this statement.

It's easy for one to _think_ that one is competent with a pistol, particularly when shooting at very close range, but I know from experience that this is a fantasy.


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## chip2

My daughter-in-law, who is rather petite, has an H&K in 9mm, which she loves. She can outshoot a lot of men with it. The point is, she got to try many different guns and choose the one she liked. I think that is the key.


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## MarylouMader

Well I started with a LCR 38 I chose this gun as my first because I wasn’t comfortable with the mechanics of the semi automatic.

I practiced and practiced and didn’t give up, I studied every thing I could find on the snub nose.

I actually became quite good. Then one day I took my husbands SW 40 cal to the range, I learned how to field strip clean and shoot it. I still have my snubby but I feel it was that gun that truly taught me about guns, recoil, etc. I actually recommend new comers to begin with this gun.

Just my opinion...


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## aarondhgraham

*I'm guilty of recommending a .38 revolver as well,,,*

I'm guilty of recommending a .38 revolver as well,,,
But not just for the women.

I'm the "gun guy" where I work,,,
Several times people have asked me what is a good first handgun.

I will almost always recommend one of several semi-auto pistols.

When I start talking about the absolute need to practice and train with it,,,
More often than not I get blank stares and hesitation.

That's when I will recommend a revolver over a semi-auto.

Not because the woman or man is too dumb to learn to operate a semi,,,
But because if they won't train on how to clear a jamb/malfunction,,,
They need the simplicity of a revolver.

The joke is that a revolver is the original "point & click" interface,,,
It's true however that many people, especially us old timers,,,
Immediately recommend a revolver instead of a semi.

I try to fight that tendency.

Aarond

.


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## Steve M1911A1

I dunno, Aarond...
Even if you carry a revolver, you have to practice using it: shooting, reloading, all that jazz.
Practice is practice, and just a tiny little bit of instruction (from a friend or a teacher) helps a lot.
So, if you gotta practice with a revolver, you gotta practice with a semi-auto. Nobody escapes the need to practice.
So you have to counter the blank, deer-in-headlights stare of ignorance by telling the wanna-be that he (or she) will learn all of the necessary stuff as time goes by. All it takes is practice. And he (or she) has got to practice.

No practice? Shouldn't be carrying a pistol.
And that needs to be explained, too.


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## aarondhgraham

*Hello Steve M1911A1,,,*

I agree with everything you said,,,
But there are some people who simply won't practice.

Maybe they shouldn't have a gun,,,
But this is America and they can if they want one.

If a person is going to buy a handgun and just put it in their nightstand,,,
I still feel that the better choice would be a revolver rather than a semi-auto.

No safety to forget to turn off,,,
No worrying about whether a round is chambered or not,,,
Just grab the gun, point it in the correct direction, and pull the D-A trigger.

Admittedly, not the ideal situation,,,
But I feel that the simplicity of a revolver shines in this scenario.

Aarond

.


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## Craigh

I pretty much agree with you, Aarond, but my thinking has constantly changed over the years. For someone who just won't train or practice, having a revolver in the night stand still may make them feel secure and might fend off an attack just pointing it. I remember, as a child, my mother took a course from the Police Department called Pistol Packin' Mamas. They advised a High Standard 9 shot 22. In today's world, that doesn't make much sense, does it, but they taught them to empty the gun on the bad guy then reload and shoot some more if it made them feel better and less afraid. Again, I'd never teach that philosophy today, but I kind of understand what they were trying to do with women who probably would never practice after that course. I still have that revolver, BTW. 

Right now, April 2018, my suggestion for someone who wanted a home defense gun and I know wouldn't practice much if at all, would be a pistol caliber carbine of some sort like the Kel-Tec Sub2000 with 33 round Glock 9mm magazines and a flashlight in their hand. This is subject to change without notice.


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## Bisley

If you watch a lot of store camera videos of successful (or semi-successful) self defenses with a handgun, I think you will come to the conclusion that most of the people involved are pretty much incompetent with firearms. Obviously, this is true of the perpetrators, too, so making a judgement based on these videos might be a bad plan. Still, having some kind of semi-effective weapon works for a lot of people who have the courage to fight back, but very little ability.

And, I agree with craigh about a long gun being the best option for home defense. Personally, I'm going to have a handgun for a backup, though.


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## MarylouMader

Practice makes perfect


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## Steve M1911A1

Good for you, Marylou!


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## Craigh

MarylouMader said:


> Practice makes perfect


Wow! We've got a celebrity on board. So, are you married?


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## Steve M1911A1

Craigh said:


> Wow! We've got a celebrity on board. So, are you married?


Male chauvinist, sexist bastard! :anim_lol:


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## Tangof

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I totally, completely, irreversibly disagree with this statement.
> 
> It's easy for one to _think_ that one is competent with a pistol, particularly when shooting at very close range, but I know from experience that this is a fantasy.


I not only disagree with it, I find it odd that someone knowledgeable about firearms would even suggest it. Can you teach someone to swim in your living room? I can give basics in a class room, and did so for 18 years, but the shooting, the hands on, has to follow. You can use a .38 with wad cutters to instruct as I did, but that's what our agency mandated. They were full sized S&W Model 10's and that's what I had to work with. When I had a choice, I started Student's with a .22 revolver, then a .22 semi-auto, .38 Revolver, and finished with a Walther PPK sized .380 and a 9MM Ruger or S&W. Most Females liked the .380 for their weapon of choice, but quite a few Men did too. The point was to ease in to shooting, but get used to SHOOTING! The noise has to be the as does the recoil. As an aside. my Daughter was qualifying for her CCW license shooting her BERSA .380, when a line coach after looking at her and the gun, thought maybe she was too tiny for a .380, maybe a smaller gun would be better. I was observing, but I kept my mouth shut. She turned to me and asked "Dad, would you mind?" and gestured toward my gun, still in the case. I handed it to her and she shot the qualification with a Glock 21 .45.


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## BigHead

A .38 can be just the ticket, but I don't take that for granted. I had a girlfriend {slightly built} that had a Ruger SP101 .357, and I know another slightly built chick that had a .357 Magnum. I am OK with a woman picking her own, since she is the one using it; but if she asked my advice, I would include the 38 Special. 

I gave a girlfriend of mine a Ruger P97 .45 Auto., and she loved it. I gave another girlfriend, a Taurus snub nose .38 and she loved that. Since then, I haven't given any more, it gets a bit expensive.


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## Craigh

BigHead said:


> A .38 can be just the ticket, but I don't take that for granted. I had a girlfriend {slightly built} that had a Ruger SP101 .357, and I know another slightly built chick that had a .357 Magnum. I am OK with a woman picking her own, since she is the one using it; but if she asked my advice, I would include the 38 Special.
> 
> I gave a girlfriend of mine a Ruger P97 .45 Auto., and she loved it. I gave another girlfriend, a Taurus snub nose .38 and she loved that. Since then, I haven't given any more, it gets a bit expensive.


Darn, you've a lot of girlfriends. My Jan doesn't have a gun and I'm having a hard time convincing her. Almost a few times, but not quite. However, she's been to the range a couple of times with me. I started her on my S&W Model 41 22cal and she did OK. Me moved up a little to my Model 65 with 38 sp, but she saw me shooting one of my 1911 pistols and wanted a try. Understand, she's 5'2" 110 lbs or less. With me being worried and over explaining how to grip it, I loaded a couple of mags. She handled it wonderfully and asked why I had been so concerned. She said it was heavy but a soft shooter, and one of her groups was better than some of mine. Heck, she grouped on a NRA paper target mostly "Minute of Paper" at 50 feet. Not bad for the first time, and better than most newbie Glock renters/owners at the range shooting 9mm at 5-7 yards.


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## Steve M1911A1

Craigh said:


> ...she grouped on a NRA paper target mostly "Minute of Paper" at 50 feet. Not bad for the first time, and better than most newbie Glock renters/owners at the range shooting 9mm at 5-7 yards.


I strongly suggest that a brand-new pistol shooter would be best served by starting off at five yards...or maybe even just three yards.
And from "low ready," not from the holster.
And only after a week (at least) of dry-fire acclimatization.

The point is that her first live-fire, pistol-shooting experience should lead to success.
People learn best from positive experiences. "Hey look: I can do this!"
Any reasonably handy 10-year-old can make center hits with a pistol at 10-15 feet, and so can any other beginner.

Fifty feet (a little more than 15 yards) is too long a shot for a beginner, and, as you saw, there won't be brag-worthy success.

Jean is just about five feet tall, and weighs 100 pounds fully dressed and soaking wet (actually it's somewhat less, but it's a good line).
She learned to shoot the pistol using one of my 1911s, shooting full-power .45 ACP, IPSC competition loads.
With good preparation, she found it dead easy. As you've noted, full-size, full-weight 1911s produce very easily managed recoil.

I suggest that you start over with Jan, and set her up for real success, so she'll want to continue to learn.

(Jean is now a better pistol shot than I am: She doesn't have PMR and arthritis.)


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## Craigh

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I strongly suggest that a brand-new pistol shooter would be best served by starting off at five yards...or maybe even just three yards.
> And from "low ready," not from the holster.
> And only after a week (at least) of dry-fire acclimatization.
> 
> The point is that her first live-fire, pistol-shooting experience should lead to success.
> People learn best from positive experiences. "Hey look: I can do this!"
> Any reasonably handy 10-year-old can make center hits with a pistol at 10-15 feet, and so can any other beginner.
> 
> Fifty feet (a little more than 15 yards) is too long a shot for a beginner, and, as you saw, there won't be brag-worthy success.
> 
> Jean is just about five feet tall, and weighs 100 pounds fully dressed and soaking wet (actually it's somewhat less, but it's a good line).
> She learned to shoot the pistol using one of my 1911s, shooting full-power .45 ACP, IPSC competition loads.
> With good preparation, she found it dead easy. As you've noted, full-size, full-weight 1911s produce very easily managed recoil.
> 
> I suggest that you start over with Jan, and set her up for real success, so she'll want to continue to learn.
> 
> (Jean is now a better pistol shot than I am: She doesn't have PMR and arthritis.)


I understand what you're saying and agree. I cut the story way short. The first time, at my gun club range, we started with a 22 at around ten feet and stayed there most of the morning. I worked her up slowly. Where the 50 feet came in was in a funny challenge from her at an indoor range on a different date. She was using the lane beside me with a 22 and a 38 Special. I'd been practicing there and she said she could beat my score with my gun at my practice distance, but two handed. We bet lunch on it. I would never have started her with a 1911 at 50 feet. Had we started there, she would probably have been no better than "Minute of Wall."

Going back far enough, she started with my single shot barrel cocking airguns on my backyard range many years ago.

Jan's reticence to own a gun is political not fear of shooting with me on a range. She's actually quite comfortable with it, and good because she follows instruction well. She's a card carrying PETA member, tree hugging, Bernie Sanders supporting, anti-gun liberal. Our arguments have gotten pretty hot at times. It's been our only major difficulty over the years, but we put up with each other. Our few range times have been my attempt to get her used to firearms and maybe get over her reluctance to have one. I've not yet been successful. After all the recent killings, she's drifted further away. She won't even talk about it these days. I'm forced to back off the subject. I'm not sure I could get her to the range right now. It's political, totally and unfortunately.


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## Bisley

Here's something to think about.

I have encountered people who are opposed to guns because they don't trust themselves. They are what I call 'emotional thinkers,' meaning that they think with their hearts rather than their brains. Some people seem to believe that the average person does not have the ability to push their emotional feelings aside, in favor of logic. From their point of view, given the tools with which to accomplish it, the average person would commit crimes of passion on a regular basis. They actually believe that to be normal human behavior, because they believe it of themselves. Given the lack of ethics training, and a scornful attitude toward any altruistic beliefs that are learned in religious or patriotic venues, it's really no wonder that children grow into adults with the same crippled thinking that was crammed down their throats, as children without strong men in their lives.

Obviously, this type of thinking is a result of an undisciplined upbringing, basically a fatherless childhood, that is further stimulated by public schools and universities that reinforce emotion based thinking. I think it is more common than we ever imagined it could be, even to the point that apparently normal people that we encounter every day are affected by it.


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## Craigh

Bisley said:


> Here's something to think about.
> 
> I have encountered people who are opposed to guns because they don't trust themselves. They are what I call 'emotional thinkers,' meaning that they think with their hearts rather than their brains. Some people seem to believe that the average person does not have the ability to push their emotional feelings aside, in favor of logic. From their point of view, given the tools with which to accomplish it, the average person would commit crimes of passion on a regular basis. They actually believe that to be normal human behavior, because they believe it of themselves. Given the lack of ethics training, and a scornful attitude toward any altruistic beliefs that are learned in religious or patriotic venues, it's really no wonder that children grow into adults with the same crippled thinking that was crammed down their throats, as children without strong men in their lives.
> 
> Obviously, this type of thinking is a result of an undisciplined upbringing, basically a fatherless childhood, that is further stimulated by public schools and universities that reinforce emotion based thinking. I think it is more common than we ever imagined it could be, even to the point that apparently normal people that we encounter every day are affected by it.


While I mostly agree, that's not my Jan. She comes from a huge, close knit, and very wealthy Jewish family. She attended the best private schools prior to college. She's a retired attorney with a doctorate degree from an Ivy League university where she graduated #1 in her class, both undergrad and law school. She's very intelligent and normally thinks very well. She had to. She was admitted to the Bar to practice before the US Supreme Court. However, her issues with respect to guns is not reasonable to me when she tells me much at all. She admits it too but doesn't care and won't discuss it anymore without showing silent, but extreme annoyance and clamming up. All she says is, "I don't want to talk about it." Moreover, it's not just Assault style weapons, but all guns including squirt guns. She believes children should not have toy firearms. Very strange, but that's the way of many liberals. We've been a very odd couple for a long time, but it's given me a rare glimpse at the thinking of an otherwise intelligent liberal.


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## Bisley

Well, the 'phenomena' that I described spans generations, sometimes. No liberal wants to discuss the facts about gun control with anybody who has the facts to debunk their fragile narratives. All they can do is give a rapid-fire propaganda spiel, and then run away or change the subject. They must blame the tool for the violence inflicted, else they have to examine the motivation of the perpetrator, which quite often stems from a lack of ability to deal with reality. Reality really sucks, to a liberal, and as long as they can ignore it, they don't have to find a solution that defies 'liberal logic.'


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## Craigh

Bisley said:


> Well, the 'phenomena' that I described spans generations, sometimes. No liberal wants to discuss the facts about gun control with anybody who has the facts to debunk their fragile narratives. All they can do is give a rapid-fire propaganda spiel, and then run away or change the subject. They must blame the tool for the violence inflicted, else they have to examine the motivation of the perpetrator, which quite often stems from a lack of ability to deal with reality. Reality really sucks, to a liberal, and as long as they can ignore it, they don't have to find a solution that defies 'liberal logic.'


Again, my friend. You're singing to the choir. It does not describe my Jan, though. She does not fire off a diatribe. She says nothing whatsoever. She doesn't blame the tool. She blames the perpetrator, but none the less, she hates guns. She's far too intelligent to do otherwise.


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## BigHead

Craigh said:


> Darn, you've a lot of girlfriends. My Jan doesn't have a gun and I'm having a hard time convincing her. Almost a few times, but not quite. However, she's been to the range a couple of times with me. I started her on my S&W Model 41 22cal and she did OK. Me moved up a little to my Model 65 with 38 sp, but she saw me shooting one of my 1911 pistols and wanted a try. Understand, she's 5'2" 110 lbs or less. With me being worried and over explaining how to grip it, I loaded a couple of mags. She handled it wonderfully and asked why I had been so concerned. She said it was heavy but a soft shooter, and one of her groups was better than some of mine. Heck, she grouped on a NRA paper target mostly "Minute of Paper" at 50 feet. Not bad for the first time, and better than most newbie Glock renters/owners at the range shooting 9mm at 5-7 yards.


I can't pick women, only one of them was worth a hoot, and I gave her a Ruger P97 .45 Auto. She took to it and loved it, it turned out to be one of the best things that I gave her. I have not had that many girlfriends over time, but I had a habit of giving them a gun, it was kind of expensive but I did it.

PS:: I am glad to hear that your GF took to a 1911 so well, and she is right, it is heavy but a soft shooter, with 230 FMJ anyway. Are you going to show her what a +P is like? Make a target of wet newspapers in a milk jug, and shoot it with 185 +P. She will be impressed.

BTW: You and your GF are not the first odd couple that I have heard of, and some of them got married.


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## Steve M1911A1

Craigh said:


> ...She's a card carrying PETA member, tree hugging, Bernie Sanders supporting, anti-gun liberal...


Interesting: Jean was all this too, until she realized that my guns wouldn't "jump up off of the table and shoot somebody, all on their own." That got my guns into the house.
Then she decided that if there were guns in the house, at least she had better learn how to unload them. So she asked me to show her. And that brought up the question of being attacked.
So that then led to Jean saying, "OK, teach me the fundamentals, so I can protect us if I have to."
The final step, of course, was that Jean learned that skillful shooting was both fun and rewarding. So she continued to practice, and she got better and better at the whole thing. It helped that she had always been a natural athlete and a dancer.

Then she applied for, and received, a concealed-carry license. Why have a pistol, and the skill, if you aren't going to use them?
I gave her the choice of all of our pistols, and she tried every one of them.
To my surprise, she chose the Kel-Tec P-3AT.
She's good with it.

It was a long journey, which took about six years, all told.
But all it took was patience and conversation.
I'm sorry that Jan is not so easily converted. Maybe an e-mail from Jean might help. Let us know.


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## BigHead

Bisley said:


> Here's something to think about.
> 
> I have encountered people who are opposed to guns because they don't trust themselves. They are what I call 'emotional thinkers,' meaning that they think with their hearts rather than their brains. Some people seem to believe that the average person does not have the ability to push their emotional feelings aside, in favor of logic. From their point of view, given the tools with which to accomplish it, the average person would commit crimes of passion on a regular basis. They actually believe that to be normal human behavior, because they believe it of themselves. Given the lack of ethics training, and a scornful attitude toward any altruistic beliefs that are learned in religious or patriotic venues, it's really no wonder that children grow into adults with the same crippled thinking that was crammed down their throats, as children without strong men in their lives.
> 
> Obviously, this type of thinking is a result of an undisciplined upbringing, basically a fatherless childhood, that is further stimulated by public schools and universities that reinforce emotion based thinking. I think it is more common than we ever imagined it could be, even to the point that apparently normal people that we encounter every day are affected by it.


Yes, it is more common that a man might think it is, and it is twaddle; it is the mind twisting itself into a knot; needlessly, because of an emotional defect. And it is dangerous, it is a negative power, just look at the protests against the NRA that are going on. Those kids are marionettes, being manipulated by their teachers. Maybe the kids feel that guns are the problem, but the NRA? 
They don't even know what that is. And they are filling a void by those protests too, there is something missing in them. I think that we agree, but I may have used somewhat different examples.

PS: I have seen people who are muddled and crippled, because they did not have a father. And I have seen it, when the father hated the child, it is sick.


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