# Is the .380 the New 9mm.................



## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Is the .380 the New 9mm?


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

No it not the new 9mm because I feel that it too under powered compared to it larger buddy. It doesn't get the penetration that the 9mm can get 12'-18' on a consistent basis for most of the SD rounds made. Have they made improvements in ammo in the last decade then I say yea it has but a 9mm it is not. Just my 2 cents. What does the Forum think?


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

What's the Wiki quote....

"...barely adequate, barely inadequate..." 

I would say we need to limit this to a short-range target.

From what I've read, it's all about shot placement and if you're more accurate with a 9kurtz then its the round for you.

And then there's 9mm makarovs, and 9 IMIs .....


Although its a 9mm, its not A 9mm. Those 2 mm mean a lot.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

The only advantage I see in carrying a .380 is size. That size advantage has narrowed a bit with the new single stack baby 9mms being introduced.

There is a diminishing return on smaller pistols. Shorter sight radius, less grip to hang on to and lighter weight does less to counter recoil = less accuracy.

I want the biggest, highest capacity gun that I can conceal effectively and comfortably. YMMV

GW


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## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

A .380 can be just as lethal as a 9mm.

Put that aside and remember the sport has brought in a new type of shooter. Women.
They love .380's. the size. The recoil. The cost.

The huge majority of them will never ccw their guns.

Want an eye opener? Go to a ladies night at the range and just listen. 

Women see guns a lot differently than men.
You don't agree. Too bad. That's how it is.
You're not going to convert them

AFS


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

goldwing said:


> ................I want the biggest, highest capacity gun that I can conceal effectively and comfortably. YMMV GW


Very good point about quantity.

But like the demotivation poster says:

.45 ACP because shooting them twice is stupid.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

CW said:


> Very good point about quantity.
> 
> But like the demotivation poster says:
> 
> .45 ACP because shooting them twice is stupid.


I carried a G21 for about 6 weeks last winter and it was heavy, bulky, and took extra effort to conceal. The g19 is the right compromise for me.

GW


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I go with AirForceShooter here.
Woman see, think often on issues very differently.
They park the FIAT 500 or a Smart in the Garage kick the danger of having a wreck with it to the curbs, glues some eyelashes over the front lights and feel cool with it. That's for guns too. Why? - , because it is so cute.

And I have no problem with carrying a .380 or even a 32. I did it for a long time. My first PPK was a 7.62 (32) and than a 7.65 and thought it was not bad at all with it. Different times back than anyway because the gangsters carried 32 and 38 too.
Today when I carry 32, .380 I carry only FMJ. I don't trust the HP, XTP and FTP rounds in the 9 mm kurz. I mean the first thing is o hit the target in an event of being attacked - right? Second is penetration where you hit. The expanding rounds with less the power from the 9mm kurz? I don't need the round bouncing back from the rips because the gangster had a thicker jacked on. We shoot 380 HP ammo in gel and could not go further than 6-10 inch because we put the gel a old winter jacket on. Shooting a .380 FTP in a pound of meet with rips (we used it later for dog food) did break the rip but did not go further. So if I carry .380 than only like in the good old days FMJ.
9mm Luger is with the new ammo OK as a self defense round if U hit the target. 
But there is today a different question
And honestly who needs a 380 because of recoil and rocking the slide? Walther CCP with the new line in 9 mm beats even a 32 PPK on recoil and rocking the slide. The PT 709 is a great gun and rocking a slide and the recoil not realy a topic with that gun. And - a 9mm Luger is cheaper than a .380 ( 9mm kurz) in all stores. Just saying.
And if you want you can even glue eyelashes over the muzzle.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

for me, yes it is. I'd rather carry a 9 but for the way I have to dress for work, it's just not concealable easily. (business casual). The 380 in a pocket holster fits nicely into casual slacks or cargo shorts and is barely noticeable. Would I rather carry a 9? Yes, for sure, but I'd rather carry an easily concealable 380 than nothing. Besides I've tried some Fiocci HP ammo in 380 and really like it.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Humm
Fiocchi HP? Do U have experience with it? I carry sometimes .380 too (for the same reason) and didn’t find any expanding round that I trust to shoot out of a PPK (regarding penetration).


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

it seems to cycle a lot more consistently in my 380's than other rounds do. I also like Remington 380 as that round feels a little "hotter" than other ammo. With the Hollow Point ammo, I think it feeds better due to the les rounded, more pointed bullet tip. I have shot a couple hundred rounds of it so far and haven't had a failure to feed. Can't say that with all the other 380 ammo I've tried.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

My arthritis makes the .380 the most viable option.
It's all that I can shoot comfortably, and still make accurate, effective hits.

It's all well and good to say that a "real" defensive caliber always begins with a "4," but not all of us can still handle even a full-size .45 ACP 1911, much less a smaller carry piece.

Another example: Jean is too physically small to conceal a full-size .45, and finds a small-size .45 difficult to shoot well, so her best choice is also a ,380 ACP mini-pistol.

When one carries a "marginal" defensive caliber, like the .380, continual practice becomes important. The key to self protection becomes careful, quick, accurate bullet placement.
But if one puts in the required practice and keeps his skills up to par, the .380 will do the job, certainly at close range, but also out to as far as 20 yards.

It is not helpful to disparage another shooter's choice of defensive cartridge. The better method is to point out the need for speed and accuracy training and practice, and to lead the shooter to the best available ammunition.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

True Steve. A hole is a hole is a hole and is a hole.
Well and 20 yards? If your target is further than 20 yards away and you penetrate someone with your 380 right between his/her eyes, you have a lot of explaining to do thereafter.

380 is still a good load for self defense and short up to 7 yards (21 feet) distances. Home defense where you could have l0-15 yards (30-45 feet) distances, let say down a hallway or from the kitchen to the entrance in the living room, should have a different caliber. But in this case - you don't have to carry the heavier gun and the gun could be prepared, well placed in advance.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

PT111Pro said:


> ...Well and 20 yards? If your target is further than 20 yards away and you penetrate someone with your 380 right between his/her eyes, you have a lot of explaining to do thereafter...


It isn't just about hitting people at 20 yards during a fight. It also has to do with practice.
You practice out to 20 yards, or even further if you can, because it forces precise shooting technique upon you.
But then, it's nice to know that you are able to make fight-stopping hits at any necessary distance, because: "One never knows, do one?"

It really doesn't take a reasonably fit person very long to run 20 yards/meters toward you.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> You practice out to 20 yards, or even further if you can, because it forces precise shooting technique upon you.


Exactly. It's an extension of the old maxim of "aim small, miss small." Likewise, if you can hit where you aim with a small powerful pistol, your shooting ability with a full sized pistol is also improved.

I catch a lot of derisive comments about my wanting to shoot my subcompact pistols accurately at 10-12 yards, by those who believe the '21 foot rule' is the holy grail of self defense. But I contend that if you can hit your target at longer range, you can hit it at shorter ranges, too.

It's not that I don't think a fast draw is useful, it's just that if you can connect with the first round, it is the equivalent of a quick 'spray and pray.' You should draw and fire as quickly as you can, and still put the first round on target. I just don't work on my speed until I'm satisfied with my accuracy.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I don't think I am that bad with aiming and shooting up to 20 yards (60 feet). I like to carry my 380 PPK in my pocket especially in the summer when I walk in Galveston for example in thin shorts and flip flops down the sea wall. I own and shoot this gun since more than 40 years now. 40 years and I don't know how many rounds shoot, carried as a back up even in the military. All what I have replaced or repaired on that gun was some slide springs 2 firing pins and magazines. Back than they build products that last a lifetime. Try that with a Glock or a M&P out of a today assembly line. 

I am pretty good with a small gun up to 60 feet and exercise fast drawing and triple taping on the range. I am lucky and we are allowed to do that at certain times and I have a little hand firearm shooting stand behind my house.

The only problem that I have with the 380 round is the HP load. I don't trust HP bullets in 380 or smaller. Friends and I tested often the 380 round with all kind of HP Type bullets, everything what we could find actually but in that moment that we shoot into something trough a old Nylon Jacked , you know so a thing that is not thick enough for winter but a little more than fall (mixed material cotton and nylon), and or a bone was involved, the bullets perform poor. Yes and I watched all the 380 videos on youtube too. 

I carry 380 no doubt, feel not under-powered with that round but I load FMJ like we did it in the past. And honestly a hole is a hole is a hole and after someone get hit s/he have to be real busy to find a doctor instead to hang out on my place.


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## Lee Hunter (May 25, 2011)

The only thing the .380 has in common with the 9x19 is a 9mm bullet. Other than that, the .380 might have a place, just not in my brace. I'll stick with 9x19, .357 SIG, and .40 S&W, thank you very much. ;-)


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

The .380 FMJ is an absolutely deathly round.
It is possible that a 9X19 XTP, a 40 FTP or a 45 HP stops an intruder or aggressor. But one thing is for sure. A 380 FMJ kills always even in over penetration if the person that get shot not find immediately a doctor that stops that ex- or internal bleeding. 1 reason the military uses FMJ.


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## cobra6 (Apr 1, 2014)

I Have a Firestorm (Berrsa) 380 I ues Barnes TAC-XPD 80 GR. in it from what I,ve read and seen on you tube its a great summer round great expansion in gel, I prefere 9mm but this is not always possible during the summer months, my regular carry gun is a HK P2000SK with Federal 9mm 135 GR. HYDRE-SHOK JHP, just my oppinion.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

shaolin said:


> No it not the new 9mm because I feel that it too under powered compared to it larger buddy. It doesn't get the penetration that the 9mm can get 12'-18' on a consistent basis for most of the SD rounds made. Have they made improvements in ammo in the last decade then I say yea it has but a 9mm it is not. Just my 2 cents. What does the Forum think?


Actually, it can get the consistent penetration with the right ammunition. Granted, it isn't a 9mm, especially with the strides made in the 9mm arena over the last several years, but for the average CC the .380 is enough. I carry one on occasion.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I posted this article a year ago, and it got quite a bit of discusion. Seems relevant now.

Is the .380 a bad round? | FourGuysGuns


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

At the range I am more accurate and consistent with my Beretta 84 over my 96a1. Next to my 1911a1, I still do better with the 84.

I guess there is a big difference of combat vs walking to Barnes and Noble.

Comfort, compactness, 26 rounds (2 mags).... IMO .380s are best suited to the task of personal defense for many.


Besides it covered James Bond for years.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

CW said:


> ...Besides [the .380] covered James Bond for years.


Nope.
In the first bunch of Bond stories, Fleming had him armed with a Beretta .25 ACP.

Quite a few books later, Q forced him to switch to a .380 ACP-a PPK, if I remember correctly.
(The PPK: I couldn't think of a worse choice. Try one, and see what you can do with its horrible trigger action.)

*Interesting Side Note:*
Ian Fleming was an important part of Britain's WW2 intelligence-and-deception team.
He was the person who thought up the "Man Who Never Was" plot, Operation Mincemeat, which convinced Hitler that the Normandy invasion (June 6th, 1944) would actually land much further north, and that the real invasion was merely a decoy feint to draw German troops away from the "real" landing sites.
The result of Fleming's deception was that Hitler forbade his tank divisions from moving to attack the Normandy landings. By the time that OKW convinced Hitler to release the tanks, the landing was successful, and enough British and American tanks were on hand to counter the Germans.
See: Montague, Ewan, _The Man Who Never Was_; Oxford, 1996. (This is the most recent edition. Mine is a Penguin, and dates to the early 1950s.)
See Also: Macintyre, Ben, _Operation Mincemeat_; Harmony Books, New York, 2010.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> Steve
> Quite a few books later, Q forced him to switch to a .380 ACP-a PPK, if I remember correctly.
> (The PPK: I couldn't think of a worse choice. Try one, and see what you can do with its horrible trigger action.


Well done sir.  Someone made his home work.
I always said, the Bersa Thunder is a much better PPK and that not only in the book.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Tips hat to Steve. Yes, Beretta is the gun of espionage. 

Only ever read Octo**** and other short stories.

PPK was the movie gun. Connery, Moore, Lazenby are my Bonds. (of course Matt Helm and Flint were my favs)


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I go with Connery and Moore


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Nope.
> In the first bunch of Bond stories, Fleming had him armed with a Beretta .25 ACP.
> 
> Quite a few books later, Q forced him to switch to a .380 ACP-a PPK, if I remember correctly.
> ...


In which James Bond movie did this transition take place?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> In which James Bond movie did this transition take place?


Um, I think you need to read what I wrote a little more carefully.
I did not write about the James Bond films. I wrote about Ian Fleming's original series of James Bond books.


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## Gabby (Sep 14, 2012)

There have been some really interesting performance tests of Federal HST rounds both for the 380 and the 9mm. You can find them on you tube. They are fired following the FBI test parameters into bare Gel and also with 4 layers of blue jean material from either 10 feet or 10 yards I don't recall which. The are tops for almost every caliber loaded by Federal.
Go check it out. Sorry I don't have the URL handy. OOPs found it.






just copy and paste it Sorry but even Federal is pretty weak and the 380 is a very nominal round. Sounds like using the FMJ in the fastest loading you can find is the way to go. Sure beats a 22lr though and the 22 beats a 25acp. LOL No I'm not kidding. 
Follow his page for the other caliber tests he has run and reported on, he is a bit wordy but gives good information.
Gabby


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Um, I think you need to read what I wrote a little more carefully.
> I did not write about the James Bond films. I wrote about Ian Fleming's original series of James Bond books.


I know. The questions stand independently from that.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Gabby said:


> There have been some really interesting performance tests of Federal HST rounds both for the 380 and the 9mm. You can find them on you tube. They are fired following the FBI test parameters into bare Gel and also with 4 layers of blue jean material from either 10 feet or 10 yards I don't recall which. The are tops for almost every caliber loaded by Federal.
> Go check it out. Sorry I don't have the URL handy. OOPs found it.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> In which James Bond movie did this transition take place?


I haven't the slightest idea. I've watched only a very few Bond films.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

James Bond movies are caricatures of the Ian Fleming character. The books were actually pretty good, for their time, and spawned some really great Cold War spy novels. I read most of them in my teen years, because they were short, and pretty racy for the time. But, the movies lost their initial luster quickly, and became special effects extravaganzas by about the third one.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I haven't the slightest idea. I've watched only a very few Bond films.


I didn't either. I had to look it up. It was in the original Casino Royal.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> Gabby
> just copy and paste it Sorry but even Federal is pretty weak and the 380 is a very nominal round. Sounds like using the FMJ in the fastest loading you can find is the way to go. Sure beats a 22lr though and the 22 beats a 25acp. LOL No I'm not kidding.


That is actually what Friends and I observed during our own bullet tests with real pork meet and pork ribs. We are Zoo supporter and one of the neighbors works in a meat plant. So we didn't buy meat extra and the meat will be never wasted besides what we cut away after such a test.

We could verify the denim test in gel as shown on youtube even when we had slightly differences with different Ammo-brands. The overall outcome could be confirmed but....

But no one in any country normally wears 4 pear a jeans at the same time. 
Woman and Male wearing mostly different materials even if they similar dressed like Jeans and T-Shirt. Denim for a woman is thinner and has more nylon than male jeans. WalMart 19.99 jeans are thinner than brand name jeans and worker jeans have the thickest denim. So which denim do you test?

Especially the nylon parts and the stretchy parts, especially in woman clothes can cause a bullet performance to fail. Many clothes now get sold as men clothes but are made from fabric that was designed and manufactured for women clothing.

We learned that a .380 acp in all kinds of expanding bullets are just not powerful enough to stop an aggressor, especially when different material of clothing and a rib bone is involved.

We learned further that the Barrel length is very important how a expanding pullet performs.
The HP bullets that we shot out of a weapon with a 2" barrel performed very lousy.

Shooting on a 4X2 wood post from a distance of 10 feet with a 3" barrel or 3.1/4" barrel. The FMJ bullets penetrated and went right trough the 2" thick wood. 
The HP bullets penetrated and get stuck in the wood but not visible from the back side when shot out of a 3" or 3.1/4" barrel.
But with the 2" Barrel the HP/XTP/FTP bullets did harm the surface of the wood but didn't stick, fall down or could taken out with bear fingers. That was a very important fact to learn.

HP bullets are cycling in older guns not that good. We learned that the bullet shape of a HP load often causes problems by cycling through. I learned that none of my PPK and my 380 acp chambered East German Volksarmee Makarov liked the HP rounds and I had a jam every 2-3 rounds to feed. 
But also newer 380 have problems with the 380 HP loads even when the feeding ramp is polished.

We have tested the 380 not for a afternoon, we have tested the 380 round for weeks because many of our wife carry this round in their purses and we want to make sure they are really safe or have a real chance to fight. 
Was it scientific? Hell no. But we think that the denim pudding test isn't scientific neither. It looks good on youtube, It has some measurement in it that you may measure but that has little to do with the reality out there in a real case. There are so many components like, temperature, type of clothing, angle to hit....
With a HP round you have to produce a head shoot otherwise the only thing that you do is make the perp very angry at you, depending what clothes s/he is wearing and or if you hit a bone or not.

With a 380 you need more than one hit at the target to make a difference.

380 FMJ may don't stop or only stop in 20% of the cases but kill seriously almost 100% if the body was hit. 2 External wounds (in and out) and internal bleeding even if a major organ was missed. FMJ is like hit the aggressor 2 times (ones front one back) with one bullet. A reason why the military around the world are using FMJ rounds. It may be don't stop right now but it is absolutely deathly.

380 HP round have the potential to stop a aggressor to may 30%, but could make a aggressor that is on drugs or filled up with pain killers very angry and make him or her drop the little of decency that may was left in that little brain completely.

With a 380 it is very important to exercise double or triple taping. The energy of the round especially with HP rounds have to compensated with the amount of hits on the target.

After my personal testing I made a personal choice about the rounds that I carry. I wear in the summertime in south Texas very light clothes and therefore I carry a gun in the pocket. One would be a 32 S&W long with a wood cuter round and a 32 acp PPK FMJ or a 380 also in FMJ.

Target practice is a must if you carry a 9mm kurz round at least twice a month.

It is better to carry a 22 100% than a 45 30% of the time is a myth. Is not true or only good for exercising your constitutional rights on paper.

A round that can't stop or kill a perp that may be attacks you only for your car keys, your credit cart and cash, may wants to kill you to eliminate a witness when s/he can very shortly, but with 2 times shot and hurt but not stopped or killed is very, very angry and all of a sudden don't want you just be death- No, No, now all of a sudden s/he wants you and whomever is with you to suffer. That is a difference.

In my opinion the 9mm kurz can't replace the 9mm Luger. No way. But the 380 or 9mm kurz has its place in any gun shelf even in self defense when the one that carries the round is aware of the shortcomings of that round and the danger that comes with it when the aggressor can't be harmed sufficient or stopped.

I carry in 380 and smaller FMJ others make a different decision. Would I go with a 380 back to the Kosovo where people shooting Makarov 3X18 and Tokarev TT? Hell no. But I carry a 32 S&W long, a 32 acp and or a 380 in my pocket when I walk in Galveston on the sea wall.

I hope that it was not to long for people that interested in a 380 round to carry.

And honestly no one need to carry a 380. There are many guns out there with little recoil and with a easy slide to pull in 9mm Luger nowadays that are small enough to carry in the pocked or a purse.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

The four layers of denim is supposed to simulate heaving clothing, like jackets, etc. Not that anyone wears for pairs of jeans.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I know that GCBHM. But I'll found out that the bullets behave differently depending what kind of material is involved and that not only with 380 acp. The outcome could be different drastically, depending on material and thickness and form of material.
Cotton for example behaves very different depending on thickness of material and form (example cotton wool). Linen is a very good example. Do you know that you can made a kind of bullet prove west with card board, glue and different layers of linen? No?

I didn't say my outcome and my testings are scientific. My outcome and my conclusion is as good as from someone that states the opposite. I can live with that very comfortably. But I hoped that my testings and observations were a little from interest for the ones that carry the 380 round.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Your tests are your tests, and there is nothing wrong with that. I said nothing about that. It seemed you were confused as to why the FBI used four layers of denim in their tests, which is what I spoke to. I really don't think their gel testing is all that scientific. It is just used to determine how consistent bullets will perform given certain mediums, not to simulate how a bullet will react to bone, etc. Anyone remotely knowledgeable about ballistics will tell you anything can happen at any given time, and there is no scientific way of proving it out, regardless of the caliber used, and while it is known that different kinds of materials (such as animal skins/bones) will cause bullets to react differently than others materials (like human tissue, bone, etc.), I think the reason the FBI uses ballistic gel instead of animal carcasses to test bullet performance is to determine how consistently a bullet will perform, not to determine whether or not a bullet will penetrate one animal the same as another. In other words, it's about the bullet, not the medium. Once a bullet enters a living human body, there is no way to determine what is going to happen with any consistency. It's really a waste of time, but clearly you are free to conduct your own tests. You wouldn't be the only one to do so. 

However, the statement "With a 380 you need more than one hit at the target to make a difference" is simply off base. First, most people are going to need more than one shot with any caliber to make a difference, so that statement would hold true for any shooter with any caliber. Not b/c the bullet is not powerful enough, but b/c the placement is off. Secondly, to say that you will need more than one shot with a .380 to make a difference b/c it is a weak bullet just isn't true. The fact is that a .380 can be just as devastating as any other major caliber with a single shot to the right place. It will penetrate clothing and bone to hit a vital organ easily, especially if you're using a FMJ. It's simply a matter of placement, not power, just as with any other handgun caliber. Lastly, using ball ammo in any instance with any caliber is almost always going to require multiple shots to incapacitate unless you hit a vital. Why? Simple matter of terminal ballistics. No FMJ dumps energy or creates a wound channel like a JHP that expands to nearly twice its original size once it hits the body. 

We all know that expansion helps to prevent pass through which is going to cause the bullet to dump its energy in the body rather than punching right through, which causes more internal damage than a quick and small wound track that passes right through, but if you want to carry FMJ in your .380, fine. Go ahead. It will over penetrate, just like any other FMJ round in any other caliber, in most circumstances, making it harder for you to stop an aggressor, but that's your business. There are a handful of JHP offerings in .380 that will more than suffice for a solid personal defense round, but you certainly do not have to use them.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> We all know that expansion helps to prevent pass through which is going to cause the bullet to dump its energy in the body rather than punching right through, which causes more internal damage than a quick and small wound track that passes right through, but if you want to carry FMJ in your .380, fine. Go ahead. It will over penetrate, just like any other FMJ round in any other caliber, in most circumstances, making it harder for you to stop an aggressor, but that's your business. There are a handful of JHP offerings in .380 that will more than suffice for a solid personal defense round, but you certainly do not have to use them.


Gel tests are good for making controlled tests and providing comparisons between different ammos. As far as what can be accomplished by shooting into a human, there are just too many variables to consider. There is no question that hollow point .380's can kill, and that many people have successfully defended their lives with them. The question of penetration vs. expansion is a close call, if real life history of actual shootings are taken into account, but one thing is sure - a FMJ, even in a .380 can pass through almost any normal clothing, bounce off of bone, and still pass through vital organs - hollow points may not.

As for over-penetrating, I am more concerned with misses than over-penetrations, and those can occur without regard for bullet type. One has to be responsible for what is behind his target, regardless, so over-penetration is not as big of an issue as everyone tries to assert, in my opinion. I carry FMJ's in a .380, when I have no choice but to carry a .380. If the option is available to me, I will have at least a 9x19 (luger) with 124 or 147 grain hollow points. The improved bullets for .380 do make some difference, but not quite enough to satisfy me.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Bisley said:


> Gel tests are good for making controlled tests and providing comparisons between different ammos. As far as what can be accomplished by shooting into a human, there are just too many variables to consider.


That's what I said. Like I said, there are a handful of .380 JHPs that have proven to do well in the FBI gel tests, which are used to measure bullet performance consistency, not to determine how it will react once it hits the body of an animal, human or otherwise. These bullets consistently reach btwn 12" to 18" penetration, achieving good expansion in both bare and denim gel tests, but at the end of the day, no one has to use these rounds. I will say this; however. In every gel test I've seen, from .380 to 10mm, every FMJ passes straight through the gel block reaching well over 20" penetration, many (most) exceeding 25+". That is enough for me to say that I do not want to use ball ammo in any platform unless it is the ONLY thing available.

If we miss our intended target, it's a moot point, isn't it?


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> If we miss our intended target, it's a moot point, isn't it?


The likelihood of missing that target with a pocket pistol and hitting an innocent civilian is at least as great and much more dangerous than shooting through the perpetrator and hitting someone else with a partially spent round.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

It is always, in any given field of someone life, a private responsibility. No one can replace that. Whatever we do it is our private responsibility that no one can take from us. Like going to potty. That is also your responsibility that no one can pass on.
Interesting enough is that the Industry and Government spent tons and tons of money to convince the people that they could replace the self responsibility and many, many find that very convenient and follow Governments and Industry religiously. Laundry detergent for example haves to contain J4OBS11kapsules and if not it is very bad or even dangerous. And than the people get explained all the goods, the does and don't that the Industry put out and spend so much money on, so the people fight over the J4OBS11kapsules religiously.

It is interesting for me to see, if someone said something against the political main stream and the sales slogans of the Industry, how that creates immediately and almost automatically the reflex to bait. 

I carry in the main time outside the house the 9 mm Parabelum with a HP load. That has something to do with weight that I have to carryall day and I am convinced that the Luger 9 is a powerful round.
Home defense is made with 40 S&W and 45 acp, and 12ga shotgun, or a mix of all depending in what room I am at the moment the problem occurs. 

Only on very hot summer days on a Sunday stroll, I sometimes carry a 32 S&W long Revolver, a 32 acp auto or a 380 auto in my pocket.

I learned that the 32 S&W long round that I want to carry is made by Magtech 98gr WC,
The 32 acp, we tested the Win super X (we didn't had access to something else in HP) is just out of any discussion. 32 acp is definitely to weak for a HP load.
I learned that the 380 acp begins to make sense to discuss a HP round but the round is still to iffy and to weak.

I learned that the 380 acp HP shot out of a 2" barrel weapon is just waist of money. The performance is very lousy. I don't want to mention a brand name because I don't want to start a name brand war and if this or that brand in 2" would perform better. 
380 acp HP rounds shot out of a Walther PK380 (Barrel length 3.6") and a Bersa Thunder (Barrel length 3.5") performs somewhat but not really good and not reliable and similar all the time. I don't know how they do that on youtube, but I guess they cut out allot for their videos. We could verify the results but not all the time. I would say 380 acp 4 out of 10?

Based on our own testing and spending about 400 Dollar for ammo and other items and not counting the time for preparation and testing, I came to the conclusion that 32 S&W long, 32 acp and 380 acp had not enough energy to perform reliable outcomes in the same scenario on the same time and with the same weapon to carry a HP round comfortably. The outcome even with a 3.6" barrel is just not reliable enough.

I was in war zones where people shot with hand-firearms (they often didn't have anything else mostly Tokarev and Makarov and Sarsilmaz) and ball ammo and have seen not only ones what ball-ammo does. So I feel very comfortable to carry a 380 acp FMJ round in my pocket for self defense. I hope I never get tested in a real attack but I know exactly (after intensive testing with ammo and my personal carry weapon) what my bullet does when I hit the target..

I hope no one ever becomes a situation that s/he have to pull the defense gun for real.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> GCHBM
> In every gel test I've seen, from .380 to 10mm, every FMJ passes straight through the gel block reaching well over 20" penetration, many (most) exceeding 25+". That is enough for me to say that I do not want to use ball ammo in any platform unless it is the ONLY thing available.


That is a personal decision that I can retrace and understand.
We all have to make decisions what is for us important. We don't live in a perfect world therefore we have to carry a weapon but everyone put some weight on different issues. A HP round gives the attacker a 45% possibility to survive and a FMJ bulled only a chance of 20-25%. Everyone has is own priorities.



> Bisley
> The likelihood of missing that target with a pocket pistol and hitting an innocent civilian is at least as great and much more dangerous than shooting through the perpetrator and hitting someone else with a partially spent round.


Right and
do you know that HP bullets just passing trough a body like that too? The very same people that argue that a FMJ bullet passing trough and could hit a innocent bystander, loading their defense weapons with +P or even +P+ loads. But even if not it really doesn't matter.

Most of the people don't realize that a body behind the rips is mostly hollow and filled with air and hitting the heart is not so easy as someone my think. One of the problems that the FBI guys during that shooting actually experienced. 
The most of the bullets regardless if HP loads or FMJ when they get stuck in a body, get stuck by a bone or a bone had absorbed the bullets energy.

Stopping power? Well ill think the word stopping power is misleading and a by the Industry invented myth.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Bisley said:


> The likelihood of missing that target with a pocket pistol and hitting an innocent civilian is at least as great and much more dangerous than shooting through the perpetrator and hitting someone else with a partially spent round.


Sure, but again, it's a moot point wrt the discussion. It holds true for any round, even a tank.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Stopping power is a myth. A BB will drop a grizzly if it is placed just right. It's a marketing scheme.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> Stopping power is a myth. *A BB will drop a grizzly if it is placed just right.* It's a marketing scheme. [emphasis added]


Um, OK, where do you place that BB, in that bear?
Tell us how you know that it'll work.

What you have done here is supplied your own _reductio ad absurdum_.
Your counter-example is such ridiculously overblown hyperbole, that it is therefore self-destructive.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

Pt111 pro:I appreciate you sharing your personal testing results. Seeing things for yourself is a great way to make an informed decision.

My wife loves shooting .380 it is the only caliber she can handle. I struggle like most as to which is better FMJ or HP. Right now there is FMJ in the G42.

I usually only use BB's when I hunt bear I think it gives them a fair shot.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Um, OK, where do you place that BB, in that bear?
> Tell us how you know that it'll work.
> 
> What you have done here is supplied your own _reductio ad absurdum_.
> Your counter-example is such ridiculously overblown hyperbole, that it is therefore self-destructive.


You know what...it's not even worth a rebuttal.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

In my humble opinion: "Is the .380 the New 9mm?" If true, it would be only in one regard and one regard only, in "popularity" if that's the case.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I hope that the .380s become VERY popular with the bad guys.

I think that I've reached my minimum with my G19.

GW


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Hummmm.....
I hope no round and no caliber gets popular with the bad girls and boys.
And I'll think that based on Industry Adds and their opinion creating processes the FMJ round in any caliber is very underestimated. Regardless if the FMJ is stopped by a bone or it is going right trough, if you don't see a Hospital to stop that internal bleeding you surely die by drowning in your own blood without loosing a drop a blood to the outside and or spoiling your shirt.

A 22, 32 S&W long, 32 acp and a 380 acp in FMJ is absolutely deathly and kills like a Swiss made clockwork if the bleeding is not stopped immediately. No doubt.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> rustygun
> 
> My wife loves shooting .380 it is the only caliber she can handle. I struggle like most as to which is better FMJ or HP. Right now there is FMJ in the G42


I'll think a good choice the 380. I carry the 380 too and when I do I feel very comfortable with it.

I'll think regardless of caliber and choice of ammo, the trusted ammo brand and bullet must be shot at least 150-200 rounds to see if the round is cycling reliable in my personal gun.
A FMJ is absolutelly deathly and gets the job done, no doubt.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't think there is any question that FMJ is a deadly round. The issue, at least for me, is that it is potentially too deadly meaning that it could pass through the intended target and hit someone I don't intend to hit. Even it is does not kill them, it has changed both our worlds forever, and that is something I just do not want to do. 

I would rather take three shots with a JHP to drop a thug than inadvertantly kill or injure an innocent bystander b/c I was shooting a FMJ.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

It still gets back to the point I was trying to make that you pronounced "moot."

If you fire at an attacker, you are responsible for whatever your bullet hits. If the actual scenario does not unfold in the way you expect it to, you could easily miss the target. Police do it all the time, with full sized guns. So, you have to decide whether you are going to fire in that direction before you draw, or else decide that the risk is merited, and then take the heat for any foul-ups. It is a variable situation and I've seen no convincing evidence that either one of us is right. I just choose the one that makes sense to me, and you use the one that makes sense to you. In my case, I almost never carry a .380, so maybe it's easier for me to choose.

I completely agree with using expanding ammo in self-defense weapons that have enough power to penetrate more than halfway through a human, in the worst possible circumstances. But, I'm not convinced that .380 will always do that with the best hollow point ammo, fired from a very short barrel. The new 'solid' copper bullets may, but they bear more resemblance to a FMJ than a jacketed hollow point.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Bisley said:


> It still gets back to the point I was trying to make that you pronounced "moot."
> 
> If you fire at an attacker, you are responsible for whatever your bullet hits. If the actual scenario does not unfold in the way you expect it to, you could easily miss the target. Police do it all the time, with full sized guns. So, you have to decide whether you are going to fire in that direction before you draw, or else decide that the risk is merited, and then take the heat for any foul-ups. It is a variable situation and I've seen no convincing evidence that either one of us is right. I just choose the one that makes sense to me, and you use the one that makes sense to you. In my case, I almost never carry a .380, so maybe it's easier for me to choose.
> 
> I completely agree with using expanding ammo in self-defense weapons that have enough power to penetrate more than halfway through a human, in the worst possible circumstances. But, I'm not convinced that .380 will always do that with the best hollow point ammo, fired from a very short barrel. The new 'solid' copper bullets may, but they bear more resemblance to a FMJ than a jacketed hollow point.


The new solid copper bullets seem to penetrate the same as FMJ. There are a lot of .380 JHPs that are not adequate for defense, and I would use ball instead of those; however, there are a handful of .380 JHPs that have tested to get consistent and positive results, and those are what I choose.

I do agree with your premise that one is responsible for whatever it hits with a bullet. The reason I deemed it a moot point in this disucssion was simply b/c we are talking over penetration, not misses. Over penetration cannot occur without the bullet first actually hitting a target, intended or otherwise.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> The reason I deemed it a moot point in this disucssion was simply b/c we are talking over penetration, not misses.


Actually, we have 'talked' about everything from James Bond to killing bears with BBs. :mrgreen:


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

"Know your target and what's beyond it." Sound familiar?

Even though your intention is to hurt or kill someone with your bullet, you still need to be safe when you do it. 

GW


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Bisley said:


> Actually, we have 'talked' about everything from James Bond to killing bears with BBs. :mrgreen:


Haven't you killed a bear with a BB? If not, you're not living, man!


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