# Which should be my 3rd gun



## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

I have an: HK USP-C and a Glock 17 both chambered in 9mm. Which should be the next to enter the collection?


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

You should consider a .380 for pocket carry or concealed carry, such as: Ruger LCP with Laser, S&W Bodyguard 380, Sig P380, Kahr P380, etc.
You should also consider a 9mm pocket carry, such as the Kahr PM9 with Night Sights, Ruger LC9 with laser, Sig 290 or Kimber Solo (if you can find one), etc. 
I would get a Kahr PM9 if you don't have one yet.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Decide on your application and you will have narrowed down your choices.

Some applications:

Primary CCW
Home defense
Back up CCW
Deep back up CCW
Target
Bank Robbery
Assassination
Etc.


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## SMann (Dec 11, 2008)

They are not on your list, but I would choose a S&W revolver in .357 or .44, or a 1911 in .45. For me, regardless of whatever else I might have, my collection won't be complete until I have one of each of the ones I mentioned. Have fun deciding.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

It all depends on if you are a collector or a shooter.

If you are a collector, get what tickles your fancy.

If you are a shooter, buy more ammo and save up for some professional training.


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm strictly a collector and lover of firearms

Do NOT want a .380 at the moment (probably ever for that matter), this 3rd weapon is going to be my first .45


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

The Colt 1911 is the best in it's class. Thats a true .45 Cal.


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

BG .380 is a very nice pistol,I picked one up for my kid. And she is Eight. The holder it comes in look like a address book. Get a ex mag for it,Works out good that way. One in the pistol,And one in the holder,That will give you 13 shots. The pistol 6+1.

And if you put it in your picket,Know one will ever see that you have a pistol.Very cool pistol.And you can put it in your back picked as well. 

And my kid is in JROTC Marksmanship. Out of all the pistol she fired,This is the one she picked out of 7 she fired. To me it was the right one.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Cat said:


> The Colt 1911 is the best in it's class. Thats a true .45 Cal.


I had a stainless steel Gold Cup--a remarkably accurate and easy to shoot weapon.


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## ScottChapin (Jul 7, 2010)

I have the Colt 1911 stainless rail gun. Although I am still struggling to figure out how to carry it, it is IMHO the better option for home defense due to its stopping power in conjunction with lower velocity(less likely to penetrate rooms).

It handles so remarkably well that I really want to carry it instead of my Beretta 92SB-C.


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## ozzy (Apr 16, 2011)

Well if a safe queen I'd go with a safe queen. :numbchuck:


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

It'd wouldn't be a safe queen, I fire my guns minimum 3 times a month... Thats when I have the extra money for bullets, Im not working, or going to school (both in the summer and during the year)

The bigger my collection, the more diverse firearms I can fire every time i go out shooting because theres nothing quite like having a whole armory to choose from and that is what I hope to have, a shit load of guns.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

jakeleinen1 said:


> ...theres nothing quite like having a whole armory to choose from and that is what I hope to have, a shit load of guns.


And there is nothing like having a favorite gun that you can shoot really well...

I would rather have one or two guns that I could shoot really well, than have a safe full of guns that I barely have time to master.


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

Packard said:


> And there is nothing like having a favorite gun that you can shoot really well...
> 
> I would rather have one or two guns that I could shoot really well, than have a safe full of guns that I barely have time to master.


Well thats lovely

But I'm well above average with anything that shoots bullets, and most people can shoot well too without having gone to the range like I do 3 times a month. 
After all the colt SAA was called the great equalizer, do you really need to be super skillful to shoot a pistol? come on that sounds somewhat silly.

Ik alot of people entering the police force who have few to no experiences shooting a gun, and the department gives them a glock and instantly with little to no experience they are as accurate as annie oakley

There is definitely skill to learn with guns but not enough to call yourself a master of handguns... I.e. The Outlaw Jonesy Wales... lol

But that doesn't make you Bruce Lee... That my friend was a master


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

The old Japanese fellow that owned the karate studio and was a 10th Dan black belt (and the highest black belt on Long Island at that time) was also a member of our gun club. He shot a 1911 .45.

I asked him why he took up shooting if he was so proficient with karate. He answered, that with the same level of training with a pistol you would be far more deadly than a martial artist. And the big benefit is that you could stand far enough away as not to get hit.

In any event he said that he put in two hours daily shooting. And though he was not permitted to do so at our range he said he was practicing a lateral run, dive to the ground and roll and shoot. He was doing this "dry fire" at that time. He needed to get to an unsupervised range to actually shoot. 

So to answer, there are all levels of competence. I am supremely competent with two hand slow fire; and I have good competence at semi-rapid fire. My old range would not look kindly on true rapid fire and I have not worked on that very much.

I have not worked on my rapid draw lately either and I think I will start to do that again too. The thing is that I'm not prepared to practice two hours a day every day--which is what you would need to shoot expertly--even more if you are shooting divergent weapons. Not so much more if you are shooting a Glock 23 and a Glock 27, but more if you are shooting a government model, a revolver and a dao pistol.

As for my lateral run and dive and roll and fire drills, I'm coming up a bit light in that regard.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Well thats lovely
> 
> But I'm well above average with anything that shoots bullets, and most people can shoot well too without having gone to the range like I do 3 times a month.
> After all the colt SAA was called the great equalizer, do you really need to be super skillful to shoot a pistol? come on that sounds somewhat silly.
> ...


The Outlaw Josey Wales was a made up guy.......what does that mean?

You are pretty confident for a guy with no money, no job, 2 guns and asking for advice from folks who have been shooting longer then you have probably been breathing. Your responses is arogant and disrespectful at least, you do not need to be super skillful to operate a handgun, but to be accurate and safe and competent you do. I can't draw any annie oakley, Josey Wales, or Bruce Lee anologies for you but I will say with out practice you can shot a gun but it will be like the kid in Pulp Fiction who comes out of the room shots 6 times at Vincent and Jules when they are standing 6 feet away and misses every shot. Sorry but I wanted to get to a visual concept you can relate too. Jules who on the other hand practices takes less shots and is very much more proficient.

I would certianly rather have 1 or two pistols I can shoot skillfully and manipulte precisely then think it is silly to obtain skill when shooting. But then I have a job I have bullets I have a brain I have more then two guns and am smart enough to respect the opinions of those who are obviously more experianced in a feild then me

RCG.


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

^

No job, no money? You know these things about me how? You know nothing about me sir...lol Nor do you know how long I've been shooting.

Media makes it look like you need to be a master to operate a handgun, that was my point with the movie analogies, really though the craftsman ship of firearms in todays age is so high that even the most incompetent of assholes (i.e. any 13 year old kid who has played 1 or 2 violent video games) can load and fire one and hit what they are shooting.

Being safe and competent are not skills, they are standards by which all firearm users should abide by so that the government doesn't take guns away from us because somebody doesn't have the "skill" to keep their gun locked up and empty. I call those things common sense and respect for the tool.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

jakeleinen1 said:


> Thats *when I have the extra money *for bullets, *Im not working*, or going to school (both in the summer and during the year)


This is how I made the jump to no money....no job.......unless you have a job but just don't work while you are there. and being a student I assume you are under 25 but I did say probably in my statement. I meant no more disrespect towards you then I took from your post.

You say "Being safe and competent are not skills"..................a bit of folly. The media actually makes it look like any azzhat from anywhere can obtain a gun and can shoot one. They make it appear too easy and that skill is not involved. It offends those of us who are actually skilled, safe and competent with our weapons. It takes no skill to lock a weapon it only takes a safe and a minute. I hope your weekend is great!

RCG


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

I'd have to agree with RCG. There most definitely IS skill involved in shooting a handgun well. Now, pulling a trigger is easy, hitting what you want to hit with speed and precision... that is not easy. Anyone who thinks it is, isn't asking enough of themselves. (redefine your goals, make them tougher). That is what practicing is for.

There are a large contingent of "dirt clod shooters" out there that simply go out, point the gun at a dirt clod (notice I didn't say aim) and pull the trigger as fast as they can. Sometimes they hit it, most times they don't, but all they need is the one hit to justify their methods. Then they giggle and smile at the group of other dirt clod shooters they brought to the range to puff up their ego's.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

I had a friend (sorry Larry) who shot more ammo and more often than I shot. He was very good at running a lot of ammo through his guns in the very minimum amount of time. But one day he shot out the flourescent tube over the middle of the range. This would be about 5 or 6 feet above the line of fire. So I'm not sure what skills he had. (Personally I would have been too embarassed to fess up and pay for the tube. I'll have to hand it to Larry for doing that. But he missed the line of fire by 5 feet which would have been about 10 feet at the end of the range. How can you miss a target by 10 feet?).

There are several factors involved in accurate shooting (ignoring the weapon for the moment).

1. Grip strength. You need to hold the weapon securely but you only want to use about 70 percent of your strength or your hands will start to shake. So if you are very strong the 70 percent will be quite high.

2. Muscle control. You have two types of muscle control. Voluntary and involuntary. The voluntary muscles are controlled by you at that moment. But the other muscles need to learn their role in the action. So to hold a weapon steady requires both sets of muscles. It takes time for the muscles to learn their roles to hold the weapon still.

3. Flinch control. You have to learn not to flinch. I don't know how to teach it. But if you flinch you won't have good results.

4. Trigger control. You need to learn to keep the weapon steady while pulling the trigger.

5. Breath control and aiming. For accuracy I find that if I take several deep breaths and then expel about 1/2 from my lungs and then hold my breath I have improved steadiness. (I did not invent this technique, target shooters do it all the time.) 

6. Timing. I find if I try to hold an aimpoint for more than 3 to 5 seconds that my aim starts to move around. I then have to lower my arm and repeat the aim. (slow fire).

7. Physical conditioning. Good overall muscle conditioning will improve your shooting. 

8. Red Bull. High caffeine will wreck havoc with your aiming. Limit your coffee intake before shooting.

9. Alcohol and drugs. Aside from poor judgement issues that might arise from the use of recreational drugs, they will also affect your motor skills. 

I'm sure that there are more that I've overlooked. But if you treat shooting like an athlete treats his athletic field, you will do a lot better. Shooting is a skill sport.


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## ozzy (Apr 16, 2011)

Mall ninjas abound...............:numbchuck:


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i recommend a supersoaker.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

Generally you can't go wrong with a Sig Sauer.

Here is my Sig P220 (not in earth tone)










and my Sig P220 compact










The Sig P220 is a great gun.

One of my best shooters.

:smt1099


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

dondavis3 said:


> Generally you can't go wrong with a Sig Sauer.
> 
> :smt1099


An older Sig(milled), yes. The newer "bent rail" pieces of crap are horrible. Saved 'em some money, but it's destroying their brand, imo.


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

recoilguy said:


> I meant no more disresect towards you then I took from your post.
> 
> You say "Being safe and competent are not skills"..................a bit of folly.
> RCG


Its cool, sorry for being hostile RCG

Anyways I will agree to disagree, there is some level of skill but to demonstrate my thinking two videos for you to watch

Tom Cruise: 
Collateral Tom Cruise training - YouTube (being skillful and badass in his training)

Tom Cruise being odd on Oprah - YouTube (wait no anybody can learn to do that after a couple weeks) jk lol


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## Highground (Aug 13, 2011)

You gotta go with the 1911. Best pistol design ever (IMO). I have a Springer loaded model, and they are great guns. Most intuitive shooting automatic pistol I've ever shot. You already have two polymer pistols. Other than that the only one I can comment on is the XD. Great gun I've had one for 5 years and shot it quit a bit. So reliable it's almost boring. I can't shoot a Sig P220 worth a damn so I haven't bought one. 

If it were me, I'd ditch that HK 9mm and get the 1911 and the XD, but that's your business. Good luck on getting a good price, and I doubt you'll be disappointed in any of the reputable .45's you are considering.


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## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

None of the above.

You my friend need a .22

AFS


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

The decision making process I use is like this:

1. Application. How do I intend to use the weapon. Deep concealment? Concealment on the ankle or in the pocket. Target. Home protection. Etc.
2. Suitable candidates. Make a list of those weapons that are suited to the task at hand.
3. Budgetary. How much am I willing to pay for the weapon.
4. Research on the suitable candidates that are within budget.

Without a decision on the application almost no suggestion can be well-considered. So how are you going to use the weapon?


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

I voted for the springfield operator, I think I would change the grips though


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i recommend a supersoaker.


Hey! That was going to be _my_ recommendation! Thief.

I chose the Operator. Least ugly. Fact.


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

Packard said:


> The decision making process I use is like this:
> 
> 1. Application. How do I intend to use the weapon. Deep concealment? Concealment on the ankle or in the pocket. Target. Home protection. Etc.
> 2. Suitable candidates. Make a list of those weapons that are suited to the task at hand.
> ...


My decision making process:

1. Which ones are ugly? Eliminated.
2. Which one is prettiest? Check. Done.


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## jakeleinen1 (Jul 20, 2011)

@Dondavis3

That sig p220 is very sweet, I already got the Beretta Px4 as my 3rd gun

@Holly

There has been an occasion where I bought a gun for looks and pop culture references (HK USPc)
Beretta Px4 3rd gun, definitely not a pretty gun, accurate and reliable though


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Holly said:


> My decision making process:
> 
> 1. Which ones are ugly? Eliminated.
> 2. Which one is prettiest? Check. Done.


On that basis, I like the CZ Rami. Nice lines, nice metal work (all metal). It only needs some fancy grips to make it look like a collectable.


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Nice choice Pack.......very true!

RCG


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

Packard said:


> On that basis, I like the CZ Rami. Nice lines, nice metal work (all metal). It only needs some fancy grips to make it look like a collectable.


This is a great choice...I own a RAMI as well...the RAMI P. 
I recommend either purchasing from CZ custom shop (Ghost Products) and getting their $160 hammer/trigger job OR sending your gun to them for the trigger job or contact Stuart on the Czfirearms.us website for a hammer/trigger job. It will make it a competitive style trigger with no perceptable creep. You may want to ask them about a different spring as well.

It is a great gun to carry as well. If I had the decocker version, I would carry with a round in the chamber and decocked. If you are looking for a holster, the Springfield XD holster should work, or Sig compact holster. Check on czfirearms.us under the RAMI section for other suggestions on holsters.

Great choice...and enjoy and train a lot and be safe
CC


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