# For those who carry the .45



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

What are your thoughts on fewer rounds of .45 verses more rounds with either the 9mm or .40 for EDC CCW?


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

I think statistically, most first rounds fired in a SD incident are misses... quite often, following shots are misses too. I think more rounds, like in a 9mm, never hurt unless you carry an extra mag and are proficient in doing slide lock "emergency" reloads.

I'd hate to run out of ammo in the middle of a deadly force encounter because I was hung up on a certain caliber because it's considered "manly". I do prefer 9mm though for several reasons which i've discussed before on here... the 'caliber debate' has no definitive answer and is a completely personal choice. 

Those who train for high stress situations and condition themselves to operate in a dynamic environment stand a much better chance of survival than those who simply "punch paper" at a comfortable distance in a controlled environment... regardless of caliber.

I think Training and Mindset are more important than choice of caliber in real life... regardless of ballistic info and the false ideal that one will "Rise to the occasion" if and when confronted with a deadly force attack. The ability to put rounds on the intended target under stress or in less than ideal conditions is often overlooked by the casual or new CCW holder.

NOTE: i'm not slammin' .40's or 45ACP... to each his own. I've developed my own training philosophy based on my training, on the job experience and investigating/responding to shooting incidents... your mileage may vary.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> I think statistically, most first rounds fired in a SD incident are misses... quite often, following shots are misses too. I think more rounds, like in a 9mm, never hurt unless you carry an extra mag and are proficient in doing slide lock "emergency" reloads.
> 
> I'd hate to run out of ammo in the middle of a deadly force encounter because I was hung up on a certain caliber because it's considered "manly". I do prefer 9mm though for several reasons which i've discussed before on here... the 'caliber debate' has no definitive answer and is a completely personal choice.
> 
> ...


Excellent. Very well stated. Solid advice and real world information. Well done.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I was trained to do quick, sure reloads. It became an automatic reflex, as did counting my rounds—even under extreme pressure.
Therefore, I am completely comfortable with a "low-capacity" magazine. My carry gun has always held a maximum of eight rounds (7+1), or even fewer.

Practice trumps all adversity.

The real issue, as TAPnRACK alluded, is accurate bullet placement. Practice also trumps ballistics.
I operate on the assumption that a bigger leak causes incapacitation sooner.
Also, a good hit with a large, slow-moving bullet will leave all of its kinetic energy inside the, um, target.
Thus, I am a firm believer in the .45 ACP.

(Truth: Due to arthritis issues, I now carry "only" a .380 Colt's Model M. Not a problem: I can hit quite accurately with that, too. "What? Me worry?")


----------



## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

While what Steve says is very true, I think it's important for those newer to handguns to understand...

No one caliber is GUARANTEED to stop a threat.


----------



## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

I like a 45acp a lot and have nothing against anyone who carries it. I carry a 9mm because I can shoot it better and it only holds 8. I hope that I never have to be in a shootout with a bad guy but according to the FBI there are 4 shots in a shoot out on average with 2 being from each person. I keep a 1911 by my bed for a last ditch weapon because if it gets that bad I wanna make sure the perp goes the way of the dodo.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

More bullets in the gun will trump an extra magazine on the belt pretty much every time. 

No one has ever expressed an interest in carrying s gun with less ammo after having needed it.

The 1911 is a one bad guy gun

That being said, I am comfortable with a 1911, but these days I find myself favoring a polymer 9mm with 15+1.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Now in terms of "other" .45s. It depends. If one lives in a ban state where 10rds is the limit. A Glock 30 or HK45 makes a lot of sense. In most cases your higher capacity .45s are too chunky in the grip, harder to conceal, and still hold less bullets.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> I think statistically, most first rounds fired in a SD incident are misses... quite often, following shots are misses too. I think more rounds, like in a 9mm, never hurt unless you carry an extra mag and are proficient in doing slide lock "emergency" reloads.
> 
> I'd hate to run out of ammo in the middle of a deadly force encounter because I was hung up on a certain caliber because it's considered "manly". I do prefer 9mm though for several reasons which i've discussed before on here... the 'caliber debate' has no definitive answer and is a completely personal choice.
> 
> ...


TAP, I could not agree more with everything you said! I used to be a big fan of big rounds until I started working for defensive shooting purposes. I'm not LEO, but I am 15 year veteran, and although (thankfully) my line of work did not require me to come into direct contact with an attacker, we do train for it to some degree. That said, I started studying and thinking "hey, in a real life gun fight, it ain't gonna be no 'I got this' like at the range where you have time to aim. You'd better be able to pull your weapon FAST, shoot both eyes open and hit your freaking target RIGHT NOW! It's a lot easier said than done, and why I ultimately went back to a 9mm. I can control it a LOT better than bigger rounds, although I do love a .45. I'd rather give myself as good a chance as possible.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

VAMarine said:


> Now in terms of "other" .45s. It depends. If one lives in a ban state where 10rds is the limit. A Glock 30 or HK45 makes a lot of sense. In most cases your higher capacity .45s are too chunky in the grip, harder to conceal, and still hold less bullets.


Very good point! If I lived in a banned state I think I would carry the M&P 45 4" brl.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> ...I ultimately went back to a 9mm. I can control it a LOT better than bigger rounds...


...Actually, in my own experience, the full-size, full-weight .45 recoils with a very manageable "slow push," versus the "fast jab" of a 9mm pistol.
I have had much better success, teaching beginners with a standard 1911, than with, for instance, a P.35 Hi-Power or an early Glock.

Since I have never, ever shot a pocket-size 9mm pistol, I cannot compare it to my own pocket-size .45s; but I think it a safe assumption that both are equally hard to control.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...Actually, in my own experience, the full-size, full-weight .45 recoils with a very manageable "slow push," versus the "fast jab" of a 9mm pistol.
> I have had much better success, teaching beginners with a standard 1911, than with, for instance, a P.35 Hi-Power or an early Glock.
> 
> Since I have never, ever shot a pocket-size 9mm pistol, I cannot compare it to my own pocket-size .45s; but I think it a safe assumption that both are equally hard to control.


The G26 is snappy. It's manageable, but I thought the G30 .45 was smoother. I love the 1911, and spent time working with the Springfield 1911 Series 70 and the Mil Spec verses the Glock 17 and the Sig P226, and for me, although the 1911 is very manageable for me, and I am accurate with it, I was more accurate and faster with both the 9mm pistols. Then past that, I was a little quicker and smoother with the G17, which hurt my feelings bc I truly love the P226. So I carry the Glock. I EDC the 19 as I find almost zero difference in shoot ability btwn it and the 17, but I'm itching to get a .45, hence my endeavor to "justify" it. I will stick with the 9mm for EDC, but as I build my arsenal back, I will most certainly stock a few .45 pistols.


----------



## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Like Steve, I used to carry a .45 all the time, age and arthritis have pushed me down to a 9mm. I shoot the 9 better than I shoot a .45 now, the M&P 9c carries very well, it's 12+1 and if needed you can use a full size 17 round mag for backup. That said, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is legend. The .45 ACP is legendary as is the 1911 and if you carry that there are those that will see the gun and quit because "everybody knows" that a .45 if it hits you in the thumb, will rip your arm off. When I was a LEO I had a couple of incidents where a bad situation was defused simply by the idiots seeing my 1911. All the other cops were carrying .357 magnum revolvers and that didn't bother them, they didn't like the idea of a .45. As I said, idiots. OK, back to a bad situation where shots are fired I have to echo shot placement and training are key. A good hit with a .22 is superior to a miss with a .50 AE. A gun/caliber combination that you are comfortable and proficient with is superior to something that you never practice with. I would much rather carry a .380 that I practice with than a .357 LCR that I never practiced with because it was too violent. Beating a dead horse - practice, practice and practice, then go out and train with it.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Very good point! If I lived in a banned state I think I would carry the M&P 45 4" brl.


I have one of these and let me tell you, it is one sweet piece. Mine has the Apex DCAEK installed but with the factory OEM trigger spring instead of the Apex unit. Excellent pistol.


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Carry what you know I have carried a 1911 almost 45 years. I tend to it carefully, I practice with it, muscle memory to where it is natural in my hand. This is what works for me and you have to find what works for you.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> I have one of these and let me tell you, it is one sweet piece. Mine has the Apex DCAEK installed but with the factory OEM trigger spring instead of the Apex unit. Excellent pistol.


Do you ever carry it concealed? How does it compare in size to your 23?


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

tony pasley said:


> Carry what you know I have carried a 1911 almost 45 years. I tend to it carefully, I practice with it, muscle memory to where it is natural in my hand. This is what works for me and you have to find what works for you.


You're comfortable with the 1911, which is by my estimation a very easy pistol to get accustomed to; however, do you ever wonder about running out of ammunition with only 8+1?


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

(The 1911 magazines which work most reliably give you only 7+1.)


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> (The 1911 magazines which work most reliably give you only 7+1.)


I had two Wilson Combat mags which worked well with 8+1.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> I had two Wilson Combat mags which worked well with 8+1.


Yeah I've had lots of good results using 8 Rd mags, particularly those that were designed to be 8 Rd mags. The original 8 Rd mags were 7 Rd mags with chopped followers and they had a bad rep for not working well.

The Wilson ETMs are good to go. They even have a new "+P" magazine with an flat wire spring that Wilson guarantees for life.


----------



## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

The biggest change I made shooting 9mm to shooting .45 is an upgrade in hearing protection. I would agree that having more rounds is an advantage. I like both rounds each has its advantages. I really like my G30 gen4 10+1 and a extra mag. Sometimes the .45 is talked about like it is some kind of monster uncontrollable round "hide the women and children they are going to fire the .45". Really ain't that bad. I am thinking of getting something a little easier to conceal especially in the summer have not decided what though but it will probably be a 9mm or .380. The smaller the pistol though the less round capacity it has even in 9mm. 

All in how you use it . Can never forget how much damage some $4 box cutters can do.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

rustygun said:


> The biggest change I made shooting 9mm to shooting .45 is an upgrade in hearing protection. I would agree that having more rounds is an advantage. I like both rounds each has its advantages. I really like my G30 gen4 10+1 and a extra mag. Sometimes the .45 is talked about like it is some kind of monster uncontrollable round "hide the women and children they are going to fire the .45". Really ain't that bad. I am thinking of getting something a little easier to conceal especially in the summer have not decided what though but it will probably be a 9mm or .380. The smaller the pistol though the less round capacity it has even in 9mm.
> 
> All in how you use it . Can never forget how much damage some $4 box cutters can do.


Good way of stating it. I really like the .45 and find it to be rather easy to be honest. I don't think the recoil is all that much more than the 9mm, although platform does make a difference, such is the case with any caliber. In comparing the Kel-Tek .380 to the new G42 .380 is like comparing a .357 derringer 
to a .22 bull barrel. The KT is junk compared to the G42, and they don't compare. I love the smoothness of the G30. Great platform! I think the .45 is an outstanding round. Legendary! I must admit I am torn to be honest, but the 9mm is an extremely effective, very manageable round and with the Critical Duty +P it is rather potent. Good discussion!


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> Do you ever carry it concealed? How does it compare in size to your 23?


While my M&P 45 does live in my carry stable, I have only carried it a few times... and those few times it was not concealed. It is larger than my G23, but still manageable for some concealed carry. I doubt you would be able to deeply conceal it but of course, that can depend upon the clothes you happen to be wearing at the time.


----------



## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

I live I'm a restricted magazine capacity state. I tend to carrying 45c (M&P) during the winter. It is comfy and easily concealed then. 
Under a t shirt, unless for various reasons I need a deeper concealment, it is my Makarok (I can make the hits with it. Period) or my 9c. What is the deciding factor? The 3.5" barrel on the M&P will cause nerve pain after too long a carry. The Mak carries easier. 

So I guess the short of that long is, I tend to comfort in carry. And go bigger (than the Mak, think 380+p+) when the 18 layers of clothes come out. 
Then again, from my 9c to my 45c/Mak is only a 2 round difference (8+1 vs. 10+1).


----------



## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

GCBHM said:


> Do you ever carry it concealed? How does it compare in size to your 23?


Find mine very comfy to carry (Comp-tac Minotaur) and easily concealed under a sweatshirt, sweater, or heavy cotton button down shirt.


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

GCBHM said:


> You're comfortable with the 1911, which is by my estimation a very easy pistol to get accustomed to; however, do you ever wonder about running out of ammunition with only 8+1?


No I don't worry about running out because I carry spare mags and am not going to play John Wayne.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

tony pasley said:


> No I don't worry about running out because I carry spare mags and am not going to play John Wayne.


Do you carry the pistol concealed with extra mags or keep it in the truck? I think the 1911 is a fine pistol, and I love it, but for me it isn't a very practical weapon given newer designs that are just as reliable, if not more so, and have larger capacity. If I were to carry a .45 today, I would go with either the Glock 30 or the S&W M&P 45 4" barrel. Both carry a minimum of 10 rounds, and extended mags can boost that. Just makes more sense for me, but for someone like you who has carried the 1911 for 45 years, I'd stick with what works.


----------



## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Appendix carry allows me to carry the 9c very comfortably with the extra magazine right next to it (G-Code Incog holster) I have the same set up for a 1911 Commander length so my Wilson .38 Super or Ed Brown Special Forces .45 carries very nicely. The 1911's don't conceal as well as the M&P but they are close, I just shoot the 9mm better so that is that. I'm trying to find a way to carry my G41, that shoots like a house a fire and is easy on my wrists, but it's not a small gun


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Sgt45 said:


> Appendix carry allows me to carry the 9c very comfortably with the extra magazine right next to it (G-Code Incog holster) I have the same set up for a 1911 Commander length so my Wilson .38 Super or Ed Brown Special Forces .45 carries very nicely. The 1911's don't conceal as well as the M&P but they are close, I just shoot the 9mm better so that is that. I'm trying to find a way to carry my G41, that shoots like a house a fire and is easy on my wrists, but it's not a small gun


Yeah, I ordered the Incog, and over two months later they were asking for two more weeks, so I canceled my order. Not happy!!!


----------



## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

Years ago I was required to carry a six shooter (.357 mag.) I learned to reload it very quickly. I sometimes added a 1911 .45 as a back up.

I now pocket carry a Kahr CW40 (6+1 rds.) or a Ruger SR9c (10+1 rds.). They both reload much easier than my wheel guns. :mrgreen: I am not worried about only having only 6rds, 'cause I got lot'sa spare mags and know how to use 'em.

Works for me, YMMV. Stay safe :mrgreen:


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

lefty60 said:


> ...I am not worried about only having only 6rds, 'cause I got lot'sa spare mags and know how to use 'em...


Yup. Exactly.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

So do all you guys who have lots of spare mags carry them with you at all times, or are they stored in the vehicle? The reason I ask is b/c it seems if you're not carrying your extra mags with you all the time, you'd better be cool customers and dead aims in the case you run across an attacker away from home or the vehicle. I think most situations would not require more than five or six shots, but I guess one never knows, and I'd like to give myself the best possible chance to survive.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't understand your question.

Why would I—or anyone, for that matter—carry reloads in my vehicle, but not on my person?

If I'm carrying one or more reloads, I carry them on my person at all times.

Do you keep your reload magazines in your car or truck? If you do, why? What good are they to you there?


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I don't understand your question.
> 
> Why would I-or anyone, for that matter-carry reloads in my vehicle, but not on my person?
> 
> ...


I thought it was straight forward, my apologies. I don't always carry extra mags on me depending on the situation, but I carry a Glock 19 with 16 rounds at my disposal. I'm not in a combat zone, so I don't feel the need to pack like I am. I should be able to neutralize a threat with 16 rounds. My best defense weapon is my mind, which I'm sure you agree, and I am always aware of my surroundings, and don't put myself in situations where I'm likely to have to pull my weapon.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

I keep a 33rd Glock mag in each of my vehicles. Because I can. Well that and because I cover a lot of road in a lot of places and in some of those places help can be a long ways away.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

VAMarine said:


> I keep a 33rd Glock mag in each of my vehicles. Because I can...


Um, I don't really think of a 33-round "stick" as a normal, personally-totable reload magazine.

I think that it was reasonably self-evident that we were talking about normal-size reloads.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

He was asking if we keep mags on a vehicle. I do. I also keep on spare on my person.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I keep at least three in my truck, one 19 and two 17 mags, and if I feel the need to carry an extra, I take it from that stash. But like I said, I'm not in a war zone, and most places I go don't really warrant anything more than the capacity of the 19. Now if I were carrying 6+1, I may be inclined to slip another mag to two in the pants pocket, but then that would put me about where I am with my 19, and like I read somewhere, bullets in my gun trumps extra mags all day.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Hey, *VAMarine*, tell me something about using a long, large-capacity magazine in your Glock.

I recently read, in some reasonably-reliable gun periodical, that the writer had trouble keeping a 30-something-round magazine from dropping out of his Glock.
He wrote that after each shot had been fired, the mass of the magazine broke it free from the pistol's magazine-release stud, dropping the "stick" out of the pistol.
Both the length and the mass of the "stick" seemed to be equally at fault, if I remember the note correctly.

So, have you ever experienced this?
If you have, was it with a particular brand of extension magazine? With more than one?
Are the long magazines you keep in your vehicles free of this "feature"?


----------



## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Yes I have 2 more spare mags. in my truck but I would use the rifle that is in my truck which has 30 rounds with 2 spare mags for it. I have single and double mag. holder some IWB and some OWB depending how I am carrying. Yes I live in a rural/ small town area so carrying a rifle or shotgun in my truck is fairly normal around here and not an oddity,


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Hey, *VAMarine*, tell me something about using a long, large-capacity magazine in your Glock.
> 
> I recently read, in some reasonably-reliable gun periodical, that the writer had trouble keeping a 30-something-round magazine from dropping out of his Glock.
> He wrote that after each shot had been fired, the mass of the magazine broke it free from the pistol's magazine-release stud, dropping the "stick" out of the pistol.
> ...


Nope, they have tested well and not presented issue.


----------



## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> The 1911 is a one bad guy gun


Unless of course you can shoot like Alvin York, to him it was a six bad guy gun. Of course we don't have too many Alvin York types around.

"During the assault, six German soldiers in a trench near York charged him with fixed bayonets. York had fired all the rounds in his M1917 Enfield rifle, but drew his .45 Colt automatic pistol and shot and killed all six soldiers before they could reach him."


----------



## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I've tried a few different carry guns: 4in Gp100, Full size 1911, Stoeger Cougar in .40 (pretty good actually), P230 (380), P220 Elite, P345, all in hip pancake leather holsters. 

1) Practice, practice, practice. There is NO replacement for it.
2) Personally I feel the smaller the caliber, the better gotta be at bullet placement (which is second only to practice). 
3) The trigger is very important to me. So, NO striker fired guns (can you say Sponge Bob Square Pants for parts?) and no DA/SA triggers too. That killed the really good Stoeger Cougar. I loved that gun but I just couldn't get good with that first shot. 
4) I settled on ONE operating system - the American system, AKA 1911. The Euro system AKA PPK/S, P230, etc. doesn't mix.

Finally carry: S&W Series 'E', Scandium Frame 1911SC. 4", rounded butt, night sites, 8+1, patented trigger, etc. I think it's the greatest value in a 1911 you can buy. No fluff, just serious & useful upgrades.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Spike12 said:


> 1) Practice, practice, practice. There is NO replacement for it.


Exactly! Heed the man, for he knows whereof he speaks!



Spike12 said:


> 2) Personally I feel the smaller the caliber, the better gotta be at bullet placement (which is second only to practice).


Again, Exactly! Maybe even Double Exactly! Placement trumps ballistics, almost always.



Spike12 said:


> 3) ...[N]o DA/SA triggers too. That killed the really good Stoeger Cougar. I loved that gun but I just couldn't get good with that first shot...


And Exactly once again! The trigger action has got to be the same, every time. (So DAO is OK, _if you practice_.)


----------



## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Well, I myself prefer a good DA/SA in a carry pistol, or any pistol. I can place the 1st DA shot as well as the rest with high proficiency. Albeit it's the only trigger system I've been accustomed to as long as I can remember. The problem many have is being accustomed to single action only or DOA only striker fired triggers and not putting the time in with the DA/SA.


----------



## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

GCBHM said:


> You're comfortable with the 1911, which is by my estimation a very easy pistol to get accustomed to; however, do you ever wonder about running out of ammunition with only 8+1?


I carry a 9 mm with 8+1 and sometimes I feel like I need more but I never have. My beliefs are that one must prepare for the 95% of the time things go wrong. LEO wearing a bullet proof vest only stops 95% of the rds and 95% of the area on the torso. Now it's nice to have 15rds or more but most of the time you will never need it. Its a situation if you need more than 9 rounds then you are in over your head and most likely wont survive the assault. I do carry a spare mag just in case of FTF or something goes bad with the mag. I say if you are knowingly going into a situation where you need 15,30,45 rounds of ammo then your most likely been playing too many video games or watching movies. Oh expect to go to prison for excessive shooting.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

shaolin said:


> I carry a 9 mm with 8+1 and sometimes I feel like I need more but I never have. My beliefs are that one must prepare for the 95% of the time things go wrong. LEO wearing a bullet proof vest only stops 95% of the rds and 95% of the area on the torso. Now it's nice to have 15rds or more but most of the time you will never need it. Its a situation if you need more than 9 rounds then you are in over your head and most likely wont survive the assault. I do carry a spare mag just in case of FTF or something goes bad with the mag. I say if you are knowingly going into a situation where you need 15,30,45 rounds of ammo then your most likely been playing too many video games or watching movies. *Oh expect to go to prison for excessive shooting.*


In which state might that be?

The rule is simple with this. You fire until the threat has been eliminated. If that takes one or two rounds, so be it. If it takes 8, 10, or more rounds, then that's just the way it is.

I can almost guarantee that if you are surprised by an attack and the only time you have is to get that gun out and into action, you are going to have some misses and some satellite body hits (think no life threatening hits). This is why you should have the fewest possible impediments in your way between grasping that gun and pulling the trigger. Time is probably not going to be your friend and when that happens. Your carry tactics and training are the only things that are going to save your butt... with maybe a little luck thrown in.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Spike12 said:


> I've tried a few different carry guns: 4in Gp100, Full size 1911, Stoeger Cougar in .40 (pretty good actually), P230 (380), P220 Elite, P345, all in hip pancake leather holsters.
> 
> 1) Practice, practice, practice. There is NO replacement for it.
> 2) Personally I feel the smaller the caliber, the better gotta be at bullet placement (which is second only to practice).
> ...


You should have prefaced this with, "This is my opinion" but I am pretty sure we all get that.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

tony pasley said:


> Yes I have 2 more spare mags. in my truck but I would use the rifle that is in my truck which has 30 rounds with 2 spare mags for it. I have single and double mag. holder some IWB and some OWB depending how I am carrying. Yes I live in a rural/ small town area so carrying a rifle or shotgun in my truck is fairly normal around here and not an oddity,


There are certainly advantages to living in small, rural towns. Sounds like a dream at times.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I do agree that practice is key to successful shooting regardless of what your objective is, be it recreational, competition or defense. The reason practice is so important is that shot placement is everything. It doesn't matter if you're shooting a .22 or a .50, if you can't hit your target it's all academic. Ballistics prove there really isn't enough of a difference btwn the .45 to the .40 to the 9mm to make one "better" than the other for defense. Good, JHP ammunition is going to work regardless of caliber. While it can be true a bigger hole can cause quicker incapacitation, in most cases a "stop" is going to be a psychological one rather than physical for a number of reasons. First, not too many of us are "crack" shots in extreme situations. At least, you can't guarantee you will be. Secondly, the human body is capable of far more than the human mind will usually allow. Lastly, most "threats" we face are not likely to be trained assassins or Navy SEALs, so it's a safe bet one or two shots will neutralize a given threat. So I guess it all goes back to what I've said all along. Pick your gun, practice with your gun, and be proficient with your gun. The question isn't likely to be will the gun work, b/c it probably will. So then the question left to answer is will I work.


----------



## Pistol Pete (Jan 8, 2010)

Yep, more rounds is better, if you don't believe me ask the cops, you spray enough rounds out there and you're bound to hit something.(I carry a 642, no reloads).


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Pistol Pete said:


> Yep, more rounds is better, if you don't believe me ask the cops, you spray enough rounds out there and you're bound to hit something.(I carry a 642, no reloads).


Fire for Effect, over! :smt071


----------



## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

(what a great thread!) 

So to combine a few statements: If you can't hit what you're aiming at, what's the use in having a magazine with 547+1 rounds in it?

IMHO: if you know what you're doing, 8+1 will probably get you through. If you don't then 15 won't be enough. 

Question: did the practice or teaching of double or triple tapping come out of the use of 9mm?


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Spike, here's the problem. On average it takes almost 3rds (hits) of any service caliber to stop one attacker. If i do every thing right with a single stack .45 using an 8 Rd mag in the gun +1 in the chamber I have zero margin for error and MUST reload PDQ. With a 9mm and 15+1 I have the same 3 RDS per bad guy and have 7 left over just in case without having to perform an emergency reload. 

I'm perfectly capable to run my 1911, but I don't see any reason to handicap myself against multiple attackers should that be the hand I'm dealt.

I don't like "probably" getting by.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Oh, I dunno...

Back when I still could fire a .45 comfortably, I used a single-stack Government Model, then a single-stack Officers' Model (clone), and then, finally, a single-stack pocket .45 pistol.
I used that assortment in the order presented, from the 1970s through 2013, because _a single-stack .45 grip fit my hand perfectly_. Thicker grips did not work as well for me.
Accordingly, I also learned to make very quick magazine changes, each followed by an accurate next shot. (Many shooters fumble that next shot, when changing magazines quickly.)

My philosophy, if I may call it that, remains that one will do one's quickest, most accurate, most effective job with the tool that best fits one's hand.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Here's what it boils down to, gentlemen.

How many of you have shot someone or a few people in a sudden and extreme encounter in the civilian world... or even in a combat theater? That, is the acid test and we can postulate, pontificate, and armchair quarterback this until we're blue in the face but the fact remains that unless you have actual experience with this, have actually been in a gunfight with your SD sidearm, you're really not going to know how you and your weapons system are going to fair. And even then, even if you have been through something like this, you are only going to know how things worked for that specific case.

I like what VAMarine wrote in post #54 above. Since you are never going to know who or how many assailants are going to present themselves to you in an extreme encounter, doesn't it make sense to start out with not only the best handgun you have in your stable to do the job, but also with the most rounds available in the handgun to get you through an attack? Two or three attackers just might make you hear the worse sound in the world before an attack has ended -> CLICK. You don't want that to happen while the situation is still hot.


----------



## ricky75 (Apr 18, 2014)

I hate 45s. To make a long story short, I got cornered in a bathroom that had about as much space as an office desk. The perp (My tenet) was on uppers and I had a J frame 38 full of +Ps in a snap holster! At this point we’re well with in arms reach. The pucker factor is at the point that I am past tasting my shorts and pants. I’m tasting socks. The speed at which people on uppers can move is unbelievable! In the past I’ve been hit up the side of the head and wondered what happened because I never saw him move. Back to what happened. I kicked the bathroom door to cover the noise of me unsnapping my holster. He didn’t figure that one out! I told him in no uncertain terms that he was to back up and calm down. Thank God he did back up enough for me to get out of the bath room. When I got home my SO could, for the first time ever see fear in my eyes. (I’ve been a slum land lord for over fifty years) Over the next few days I put a lot of thought into “Do I need to change guns!” With a little research I found out there are double action 45s out there but, there so heavy to carry. Mentally, I put my self back in that bathroom! 45s aren’t that heavy when your life’s on the line. I ended up buying a S&W 4616-1. I also had a custom “Tension” holster made for this 45. No more snap holsters for me. A 4516-1 is a compact 45 auto in stainless steel. I shoot 100 rounds a week at ten yards and can keep all the shots in the nine ring. I shoot as fast as I can with both eyes open. I don’t shoot for fun and my 45 is never,, never out of reach day or night, 24/7. I wanted something that would make holes the size of ash trays. I got it and I love it. When your standing there tasting your socks a 45s not heavy at all. Its light an sweeter than a box of chocolates! If you carry because you might need it, don’t worry about it. If you carry because you’re going to need it, put some thought into it.


----------



## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

There is a lot of different stories here and what make us feel comfortable. I have carried everything from a S&W 637 to a Glock 17 for self defense. There was a time when I carried my 1911 all the time because in a gun fight I want the largest caliber that I can shoot accurately. It's nice to hear what other feel they need to make it to the next day. I just hope no matter what you guys carry that we all do just that. The reason I carry a 9mm 8+1 is because it what I can carry on a daily basis that doesn't interfere with my activities so I obey rule 1 and have a gun. Yes multiple attackers do happen but when the shooting starts most cowards turn into track stars. I hope none of us have to engage 3 people determined to end your life because the odds would not be in your favor. That means you have to get off 3 to 6 shots off before they can land one. Not such good odds for you. Stay safe guys..........


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Good threat...I wish I had thought to make it this good! LOL

I agree with Southern Boy and VAMarine's last comments wholeheartedly. A lot of good input though! Good to discuss and consider as we pick up ideas and knowledge from others, especially those more senior in the arena.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> My philosophy, if I may call it that, remains that one will do one's quickest, most accurate, most effective job with the tool that best fits one's hand.


Best work is subjective in this case as there's a lot more to it than fit and feel.

A Sig 226 feels great and fits great in my hand, and the hands of many but I can't run one as well and if you're left handed forget about it. The layout is all wrong despite how good it fits in the hand.

A gun my fit great in your hand, but if it doesn't have enough rounds to get the job done (despite our best efforts) it's (fit) not going to amount to a hill of beans.

But I get what you're saying though, a gun needs to fit the shooter. Prime example is my wife, a stick Glock 19 (even the Gen4) is just to big for her to control as well as a thinner gripped pistol, however the pros of a mid- sized double stack 9mm were enough that we had the grip shaved down and the gun now fits her hand pretty darn well. Still has 15+1 and a gun that fits her hands and she can control it a heck of a lot better.

I don't doubt that we can't get a lgun back into action quickly after running dry, I'd just rather have a longer time before needing to.

I've said this before, and I'll say it agian. You will win or lose a fight (as an armed "civilian") with what is IN the gun, not what is on your belt. But there are exceptions to every rule.

There are plenty of cases where LE has had to reload to finish the job and most of them have been with higher cap guns, even higher cap .45s. My favorite example is the Mettinger shooting where dude took several hits to the chest from a Glock 21 shooting Speer Gold Dot JHPs in 230gr flavor and kept fighting until he got shot in the ocular window.

Handguns aren't exactly death rays and more bullets is a good thing.

I love the way my .45s shoot, regardless if it's a 1911 or an HK or a Glock, or a Sig bit for ME it just doesn't have the benefits of a gun with more bullets that fits my hand just as well and reloads just as fast.

The only thing it does better is make a little big bigger of a hole and for the most part, that really doesn't matter so much.

Now again, if the size, capacity, controlability and skill is the same between a .45, a .40 or a 9mm for "shooter X", the argument is moot.

For a lot of seasoned shooters that have figured out the exact recipe for thir success this is the case, but there seems to be a rather large gap in the numbers of experienced shooters that have it down cold and those that dont.

I try not to cater to the guys that know what they are doing as I'm usually preaching to the choir. It's the guys that don't really have it all down yet that need our help the most. Those are the guys that won't have a 2 second reload and will probably be better suited with a gun that doesn't need to be topped off so soon in a gun fight that may take more than 5-9 rounds.

Let's not forget that an "average" number of rounds in a fight is the average of lows and highs and to get a number of 3, you have the high side and low side of the data pool to worry about if I have a shooting and I only need 1 shot, I'll be perfectly happy. If I have a shooting and I need 10, I'm still good with what I have in my 9mm Glock or HK.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

VAMarine said:


> Best work is subjective in this case as there's a lot more to it than fit and feel.
> 
> A Sig 226 feels great and fits great in my hand, and the hands of many but I can't run one as well and if you're left handed forget about it. The layout is all wrong despite how good it fits in the hand.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more nor said it better. This is the experience to which I referred above, and is exactly what I was hoping to draw out with this thread. Thanks!


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

VAMarine said:


> ...It's the guys that don't really have it all down yet that need our help the most. Those are the guys that won't have a 2 second reload and will probably be better suited with a gun that doesn't need to be topped off so soon in a gun fight that may take more than 5-9 rounds...


Good point, that.
Understood.
Agreed.


----------



## Ronin5555 (Apr 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy knows of what he speaks. A hit with anything is better than a miss w/bigger. Ole Colonel Jeff Cooper used to teach Red, Yellow and green. If your in a green mode it will be difficult to get into a must stop situation. Practise with what ever weapon works well and get into yellow mode when you do. Being ex-military there is a reason that we trained and trained and trained. Redundency creates auto reflexes that are there when you must have. Do not worry about the caliber questions. They all make some sense but what works for you and something you are quick and accurate with is the best. Just my thoughts, Be safe


----------



## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Cooper's color code was white, yellow, orange, red. Far too many living in white and you will never see trouble coming. Caliber doesn't matter much if you don't have a clue that there might be a problem. Shooting is MAYBE 5% of self defense, the rest is all mental. Situational awareness, combat mindset come to mind. The best gunfight you can ever be in is the one in which you are absent. The training and practice that we all go through is all for something that we hope never happens, then you will revert to your lowest state of practice and if you've done it right, muscle memory takes over, you don't have to think you just do, and pray that you've practiced enough or that the BG is more scared than you. There is so much more to self defense than the gun, caliber is really the least of my worries. Keeping my mind and my wits is of much greater concern.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Sgt45 said:


> Cooper's color code was white, yellow, orange, red. Far too many living in white and you will never see trouble coming. Caliber doesn't matter much if you don't have a clue that there might be a problem. Shooting is MAYBE 5% of self defense, the rest is all mental. Situational awareness, combat mindset come to mind. *The best gunfight you can ever be in is the one in which you are absent.* The training and practice that we all go through is all for something that we hope never happens, then you will revert to your lowest state of practice and if you've done it right, muscle memory takes over, you don't have to think you just do, and pray that you've practiced enough or that the BG is more scared than you. There is so much more to self defense than the gun, caliber is really the least of my worries. Keeping my mind and my wits is of much greater concern.


All excellent points. I really like the sentence I bolded.

Gentlemen, while this thread has taken a little bit of a diversion, the posts are very good and very helpful to folks who may be newer to all of this. Good job.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> All excellent points. I really like the sentence I bolded.
> 
> Gentlemen, while this thread has taken a little bit of a diversion, the posts a very good and very helpful to folks who may be newer to all of this. Good job.


Agreed!


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

One thing I'd like to point out about police vs civilian shootings. Police are in the business of law enforcement and street officers are uniformed which means they are easily identified. They have a much greater change of engaging in a prolonged gunfight than do civilians. In a defensive shooting between a BG and a civilian, things are likely to end very quickly. Most of the time the perp will take off running in another direction when his victim presents a firearm. And when shots are exchanged things are most likely to end within seconds. Highly unlikely the victim and the perp are going to be exchanging fire from behind parked cars or building corners.

So what does this mean in the practical sense? It means that the chance of you having to reload your sidearm is pretty remote. This does not mean you shouldn't carry extra rounds on your person but rather that you having to use those extra rounds is probably not going to happen if you have to pull that gun and use it. Still, it is smart in current America to plan on an attack by three BG's and have enough capacity in your sidearm to address three assailants. Why three? Worse case scenario or just a number? I picked three because it's worse than two. Point is, you aren't going to know if and when it happens so plan for those worse cases.

The best gunfight is the one you're not in. Yeah.... I like that.


----------



## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> One thing I'd like to point out about police vs civilian shootings. Police are in the business of law enforcement and street officers are uniformed which means they are easily identified. They have a much greater change of engaging in a prolonged gunfight than do civilians. In a defensive shooting between a BG and a civilian, things are likely to end very quickly. Most of the time the perp will take off running in another direction when his victim presents a firearm. And when shots are exchanged things are most likely to end within seconds. Highly unlikely the victim and the perp are going to be exchanging fire from behind parked cars or building corners.
> 
> So what does this mean in the practical sense? It means that the chance of you having to reload your sidearm is pretty remote. This does not mean you shouldn't carry extra rounds on your person but rather that you having to use those extra rounds is probably not going to happen if you have to pull that gun and use it. Still, it is smart in current America to plan on an attack by three BG's and have enough capacity in your sidearm to address three assailants. Why three? Worse case scenario or just a number? I picked three because it's worse than two. Point is, you aren't going to know if and when it happens so plan for those worse cases.
> 
> The best gunfight is the one you're not in. Yeah.... I like that.


I concur with this. I don't think a battle happens often or we would hear more about it. Reading real life cases in the NRA magazines shows that all across the country just having a gun ends battles. While most home invasions have 3 people a sustained gun battle doesn't happen.

The only case where I see is this is when that retired marine in FL had a 1911 and 2 guys tried to rob and heard the people into the back and he responded with gun fire. Retired Marine and former Pan Am/Delta Pilot John Lovell is Top Gun at Subway Sandwich Shop

Plantation, Florida: Last week police were called to investigate an attempted armed robbery: The 71-year-old retired Marine who opened fire on two robbers at a Plantation, Florida, Subway shop late Wednesday, killing one and critically wounding the other, is described as John Lovell, a former helicopter pilot for two presidents. He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke, and he works out every day. Mr. Lovell was a man of action Wednesday night.

According to Plantation police, two masked gunmen came into the Subway at1949 N. Pine Rd. just after 11 p.m. There was a lone diner, Mr. Lovell, who was finishing his meal. After robbing the cashier, the two men attempted to shove Mr. Lovell into a bathroom and rob him as well. They got his money, but then Mr. Lovell pulled his handgun and opened fire. He shot one of the thieves in the head and chest and the other in the head.

When police arrived, they found one of the men in the shop, K-9 Units found the other in the bushes of a nearby business. They also found cash strewn around the front of the sandwich shop according to Detective Robert Rettig of the Plantation Police Department.

Both men were taken to the Broward General Medical Center , where one, Donicio Arrindell, 22, of North Lauderdale died. The other, 21-year-old Frederick Gadson of Fort Lauderdale is in critical but stable condition.

Mr. Lovell was a pilot in the Marine Corps, flying former Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. He later worked as a pilot for Pan Am and Delta Airlines.

He is not expected to be charged authorities said. ''He was in fear for his life,'' Detective Rettig said, "These criminals ought to realize that most men in their 70's have military backgrounds and aren't intimidated by idiots."

Something tells me this old Marine wasn't 'in fear for his life', even though his life was definitely at risk. The only thing he could be charged with is participating in an unfair fight. One 71- year young Marine against two punks. Two head shots and one center body mass shot.

Outstanding shooting! That'll teach them not to get between a Marine and his meal.

Florida law allows eligible citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Don't you just love a story with a happy ending?
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/subway.asp#E4ahjjDimPPW1QxD.99 The former Marine "hoorah" said he wished he had more ammo in his gun even though he had an extra mag on him and yes he did reload. He now carries a Glock 23.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> One thing I'd like to point out about police vs civilian shootings. Police are in the business of law enforcement and street officers are uniformed which means they are easily identified. They have a much greater change of engaging in a prolonged gunfight than do civilians. In a defensive shooting between a BG and a civilian, things are likely to end very quickly. Most of the time the perp will take off running in another direction when his victim presents a firearm. And when shots are exchanged things are most likely to end within seconds. Highly unlikely the victim and the perp are going to be exchanging fire from behind parked cars or building corners.
> 
> So what does this mean in the practical sense? It means that the chance of you having to reload your sidearm is pretty remote. This does not mean you shouldn't carry extra rounds on your person but rather that you having to use those extra rounds is probably not going to happen if you have to pull that gun and use it. Still, it is smart in current America to plan on an attack by three BG's and have enough capacity in your sidearm to address three assailants. Why three? Worse case scenario or just a number? I picked three because it's worse than two. Point is, you aren't going to know if and when it happens so plan for those worse cases.
> 
> The best gunfight is the one you're not in. Yeah.... I like that.


Agreed as well. Police work in a quasi-war zone per se, and as such encounter a completely different element of society from which most of us will ever face. It's a completely different mind set altogether. They prepare for conflict where we prepare for defense, which is an entirely different thought process. As civilians, we should never be on the offensive. Rather, our responsibility as "carriers" is to avoid conflict at all costs. If we can walk away, we are obligated to do so. If we can resolve a potential conflict, or an out right conflict, with words, we are obligated to do so. Diffuse and walk away.

Police officers have a similar obligation to diffuse conflict; however, they deal with an element of society that has no respect for life, no respect for authority, no desire to exercise restraint whatsoever bc they are selfish individuals who think everything is about them. Our minds are our first and best defensive weapon. Really, it's our only weapon. Guns, knives, clubs, hands, or feet are merely tools we use as the result of our indigenous decision making abilities. Be smart! Prepare your mind to be ready for as much as possible, so that you can see and avoid danger. And so you make smart decisions in the event you've done everything right, yet still find yourself in a situation where you have to implement deadly force to survive or protect life. That's my perspective. Anyone have anything else to add?


----------



## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

A coup'la points for your consideration.
(note; these are my observations based on having been a LEO firearms instructor and reading a metric ton of shooting reports)

1. You can be the best shot in the world, and will miss under stress.
2. The only way to train for success is to train "Force on Force".
This applies to any "defense" type of training, be it bare hands or what ever.
3. I have never talked to, or read about, a shooting survivor complaining about having carried "too much" ammo.
4. The only "good" fight is the one that you survived.
5. The "BEST" fight is the one that you did not "HAVE" to be in.

I do believe that "SURVIVAL" is based on "Determination and Training".

I am "living proof" that the God Lord looks out for children and idiots.

Believe what you want, and do as you will because you will anyway.

Stay Safe :smt1099


----------



## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> One thing I'd like to point out about police vs civilian shootings. Police are in the business of law enforcement and street officers are uniformed which means they are easily identified. They have a much greater change of engaging in a prolonged gunfight than do civilians. In a defensive shooting between a BG and a civilian, things are likely to end very quickly. Most of the time the perp will take off running in another direction when his victim presents a firearm. And when shots are exchanged things are most likely to end within seconds. Highly unlikely the victim and the perp are going to be exchanging fire from behind parked cars or building corners.
> 
> So what does this mean in the practical sense? It means that the chance of you having to reload your sidearm is pretty remote. This does not mean you shouldn't carry extra rounds on your person but rather that you having to use those extra rounds is probably not going to happen if you have to pull that gun and use it. Still, it is smart in current America to plan on an attack by three BG's and have enough capacity in your sidearm to address three assailants. Why three? Worse case scenario or just a number? I picked three because it's worse than two. Point is, you aren't going to know if and when it happens so plan for those worse cases.
> 
> The best gunfight is the one you're not in. Yeah.... I like that.


Words of wisdom, sir.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

BigCityChief said:


> Words of wisdom, sir.


Thank you, friend.

Since you are, or were, in law enforcement, I'd like to relate an incident that happened to me around Christmas time of 2010 as I recall. I was in an upscale grocery store that is based out of Rochester, New York with headquarters in Gates, New York. It is obviously well known to the northeast types and curiously, when visiting their store in my neck of the woods in Virginia, there is a rather strong presence of cars from that part of the country. For some reason, we tend to have quite a few people here in this part of Virginia from New Jersey and New York.

Anyway, the store is Wegman's and I was there on that day prior to Christmas to pick up some wine for Christmas dinner. The store, as is usually the case, was quite busy. Apparently someone made a MWAG to 911. I later found out that the dispatcher, when told there was someone with a gun in Wegman's asked if the gun was in his hand or in a holster to which he was told that it was holstered. The dispatcher was clearly trying to explain to the caller that simply carrying a gun is not a crime in Virginia and there was no need to send a unit to check it out unless the man was acting strange. The caller, hearing this and not getting what he expected, ramped up his complaint and told the dispatcher that the MWAG was acting strange and he was alarmed.

So as I was getting ready to pay for my wine and leave, a Prince William County LEO approached me with a big smile on his face. As I remember, he asked three questions... never requested a name or an ID, or to see a permit. It became VERY apparent to me that he was actually embarrassed to have interrupted my business and thought this was a bunch of nonsense for him to bother me. We actually joked for a moment and then he left. Clearly he thought the whole thing about checking on a MWAG with me was ludicrous and a waste of both his and my time.

This officer left the store before I completed my wine transaction, we probably were in contact with one another 90 seconds and that is not an exaggeration. As I left, I saw him talking to a man outside of the door and wondered if that was the man who made the call. That has been my only "stop" for carrying a firearm in 19 years of being armed on a regular basis.

I have had police officers smile at me, issue a thumbs up sign, and even tell me, "Now there's a real American [this was in a Wendy's]" when they see my sidearm. Never once has any LEO ever stopped me and asked to see an ID (we don't have to show one here without cause), ever say anything negative when seeing my sidearm, and never "observe" me as I go about my business... at least where I could tell this was taking place. I have been next to them in stores, restaurants, and police stations while visibly armed. Have yet to see one while doing my banking business, but I suspect that would be no different than what has transpired in the past.

The stories of police handcuffing people who are armed, throwing them to the ground with knee in the back, or getting vile and threatening just doesn't seem to happen here. I won't say it hasn't or couldn't happen but it would be most rare if it did. That and the fact that it would raise the ire of people who carry to quite a degree (we would flood town council meetings and voice our displeasure accordingly while armed just to send a message).

Virginia is a good state in which to carry and quite friendly to those who do. Another thing. No Gun Signs are also quite rare and I have not seen any in some time around here. Frankly, I've only seen one and that was several years ago. All in all, compared to some of the horror stories I have heard, this is nearly a paradise for those who carry a defensive arm, open or concealed.


----------



## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Thank you, friend.
> 
> Since you are, or were, in law enforcement, I'd like to relate an incident that happened to me around Christmas time of 2010 as I recall. I was in an upscale grocery store that is based out of Rochester, New York with headquarters in Gates, New York. It is obviously well known to the northeast types and curiously, when visiting their store in my neck of the woods in Virginia, there is a rather strong presence of cars from that part of the country. For some reason, we tend to have quite a few people here in this part of Virginia from New Jersey and New York.
> 
> ...


Glad it worked out for you. Virginia is a great state and I enjoy visiting it.


----------

