# Down with the semiauto !



## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

I recently wanted to try and shoot a semiauto, although I like revolvers.

My disappointment was immense.

I chose a Walther P99 .40 S&W, supposedly a cool pistol.

But... The weapon is too light, about one pound (or a pound and a half). Hence recoil is great, hard to manage and my grouping was hideous.:smt076

Reloading was slow and awkward, a very stiff magazine spring, took me ages to fill in half a mag or less.:smt076

And, on top of it, it is ugly...

I just wonder how can people like the semiautos...

I'm a traditional gunslinger at heart, and I'll remain such!:smt023


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Semiautos are far more efficient tools for fighting:

- Much lower bore axes than revolvers.
- Shorter trigger resets than revolvers.
- Can hold 2-3X more ammo per gun than revolvers.
- Much faster to reload than revolvers.
- Much less prone to fumbling on reloads than revolvers.

Many people also find lightweight, flat-sided autos easier to carry and conceal.

Don't blame the gun if you can't control the recoil or the trigger. Very fine shooting can and has been done with .40 caliber poly pistols, including the P99. As Ben Franklin said, "It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools." :mrgreen:

Revolvers are great for recreation and hunting, and good for carry by armed citizens unlikely to face many opponents or an extended fight. They are utterly obsolete for military or police carry, and probably not terribly suitable even for armed citizens who face a higher-than-average threat level.

I sold all my revolvers a few years ago. I don't hunt with handguns, nor shoot pistols in a recreational sense (plinking or more formal target shooting) anymore, and so I had no use for them at all.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

... and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

What do you think looks "cooler"? 
A blacked-out Hummer, or a shiny classic Jag?
A flat-black XD, or a Stainless 629 with rosewood grips?

Yes... a magazine is slower to reload... when you're lounging around the house, or hanging out at the range. But in the heat of a gun fight I'll take my 16 round back-up mag, stuffed in the mag well, over a 6-round speed-loader fumbled into a cylinder any day... if I even NEED it after the FIRST 16.

How long does it take you to load and fire 32 rounds from a 6-shot revolver?

I could beat Jerry Miculek to 32...

Jeff Ward


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

i read this about an 90 minutes ago and waited for more professionaly worded responses
i would have broken some rules of this forum if I had responded immediately

mike and jeff - nice response


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Nothing wrong with wheel guns or slide guns as long as uncle sam isn't trying to confiscate either. :smt1099 Can I get an amen!

Friend of mine can group like nothing I've ever seen with his .357 S&W 7-shot revolver... I think it's all in the shooter.. some folks just shoot better w/ one or the other. I shot better with his P89 auto than his revolver at 25 yds.

I'd bet if you're naturally used to shooting wheel guns, it stands to reason picking up a semi-auto would be quite different.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I actually shoot the DA revolver more accurately than any other handgun, and I enjoy the experience of shooting them more. However, when speed is balanced against accuracy, the auto wins decisively in the hands of the great majority of shooters.

In another thread, I realized thay *mccoy* apparently doesn't live in the US. Therefore, concealed carry is probably not an issue for him, and armed defense may not be either. This does make the revolver a more understandable preference.

Still doesn't make the P99 a POS, though. ;-)


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## Snowman (Jan 2, 2007)

I own a P99 .40 S&W, and I don't know what you're used to if its recoil is "great." Seriously, my heavy 6" GP100 recoils much worse with .357 magnums. 

Maybe you should stick with .22s. :anim_lol:


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

Gentlemen,
I appreciate your balanced answers after my rantings.
Of course, police forces were out of it. Their needs are different.

Yes Mike, I'm not American, I live in Italy and situation here is probably not the same as out there.

As a matter of fact, I'm a little baffled by the importance you guys (private guys, not police officers of similar, of course) give to power of fire and combat situations. Is it so tough out there? I mean, TOF in the other post says he doesn't want to be outgunned when going to the city. While I understand there are dangerous neighborhoods, and I've seen some, I did not realize just walking or driving around puts you at risk.

But again, i've not been in the States for awhile now.

The main reason I'm repelled by autos is safety. It may be a bias of mine, but I'm always afraid that darn round may accidentally escape. a fixation of mine? But once I witnessed an unpleasant accidents in my uncle's home.

As far as I know, it is told that (please correct me if I'm wrong) that revolvers are more accurate than semiautos. Or better, you can achieve accuracy with semiautos, even the .40's but you need much more practice. That is also an impression of mine after having fired both.

The Walther P99 .40 S&W is a great gun but, again, the rounds I shot were scattered all around the target, whereas the S&W is starting do display some intersting clusters, after only 2 shooting sessions. 

Of course, I'll agree with the fire power and speed issues, if they are really needed. Even though a couple of 8-rounds smiths may yield 16 rounds with no reload needed.

By the way, I can see no need to carry where I go, with the possible exception of nocturnal stops on teh highway, with my kid in teh car.

One more for the revolver, but this is going to need another thread, the higher reliability of the revolver. reliability = inverse of probability of failure = probability of misfire. Even with minimum manteinance.

Having said the above, I gotta confess I would not dislike one of those custom or semicustom autos (at least 9 mm) with killer accuracy, minimum recoil and possibly silent. If worse gets to worst here as well, I may take one, as a back-up weapon. But hey, maybe I'm asking too much...


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

Snowman said:


> I own a P99 .40 S&W, and I don't know what you're used to if its recoil is "great." Seriously, my heavy 6" GP100 recoils much worse with .357 magnums.
> 
> Maybe you should stick with .22s. :anim_lol:


Snowman, for Heaven's sake, I hope I'll never have to fall back to .22s, only reason may be bankruptcy, I do not wish it to you nor to anyone else either!

About recoil:
your info appears to be incomplete. To figure out recoil, you know we need bullet weight, powder charge, gun's weight and bullet velocity.
I did some calcs, using the online calculator at www.handloads.com. since I have no better info, I used average values for bullet weight and powder, whereas I use 2.9 pounds of weight for the Ruger GP100, 1 pouind weight for the poly P99. Pls tell me if some input garbage is present. Calcs are attached

in these conditions, the Walther's recoil is significantly greater than the Ruger's, about 50% more.

Add to that the fact that I'm shooting with 38sps, and you will understand why my claim that the P99's recoil is double as the S&W 686's is not so far-fetched.

If you fire your Ruger with monstruos handloads, then it's a different thing. I'm speaking about the average factory loads.

Fact is that, light polymer semiautos with .40s do objectively display significant recoil, generally speaking.

*Recoil and velocity calculator

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Load One FN .357 mag
Bullet weight in grains 160
Velocity in fps 1492
Powder charge in grains 14.1
Weight of firearm in lbs 2.9 (RUGER GP 100)

Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec) 1.31
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps) 14.54
Free recoil energy in (ft/lbs) 9.52

Load two: XTP .40 S&W
Bullet weight in grains 170
Velocity in fps 1105
Powder charge in grains 7.3
Weight of firearm in lbs 1 (Walther P99 poly)

Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec) 0.96
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps) 31.01
Free recoil energy in (ft/lbs) 14.92 
*


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## stormbringerr (May 22, 2007)

mccoy, next time try a sig. semi-auto, maybe the 229. also i have read of incidents that yes, you would really need an extra 16 round mag. to be on the safer side.:smt1099


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## Snowman (Jan 2, 2007)

Interesting calcs. Since I lack the desire to run the numbers myself I'll assume these are accurate. A simple calculation is the momentum of the two guns, however P = m * v. 

GP100
P = 2.9 lbm * 14.54 ft/s = 42.17 ft-lbm/s

P99
P = 1 lbm * 31.01 ft/s = 31.01 ft-lbm/s

Now if force, F, is defined as F = dP/dt (the instantaneous change in momentum) we can draw the following conclusions. Assuming the time it takes the shooter to stop the gun completely is relatively constant, a greater force would be required to stop the recoiling GP100, due to its greater momentum.

As a reality check, unless I'm nuts, I think others will find that a .357 magnum has a greater perceived recoil than a .40 S&W even in a light auto. 

I do not mean to be rude. The info you presenting is intriguing and worth noting. I also don't doubt it's harder to control a P99 than a 686 with .38 specials.

Edit: Also ft/lbs is not a unit of energy. I think the units you want are ft-lbf.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

One thing about it you guys sure confuse this old country boy with all them numbers and letters put together. Just learn to shoot the dang thing and you'll be all right.:smt1099


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

.... now we're gettng into basic Physics vs "perceived recoil".

As one of our estemed moderators will point out, recoil, meaning how much the barrel rises in response to a shot, may differ from how much energy is transfered back into the hand. This is due to geometry as much as physics. Bore axis...

Bore axis is generally calculated as the distance from the centerline of the bore, to the centerline of pull of the trigger. The higher the bore is in relation to the trigger pull, the more of a lever the recoil works on, and the more the barrel will rise.

The legendary 1911 has an extremely low bore axis, as does the Glock, resulting in more of a felt "push" than a felt "flip". With the same impulse force. The revolver of equal weight (say in .45ACP), with the same load, and same barrel length/muzzle velocity, will have a greater rotational force against the hand than the same 45ACP load in a 1911-A1. Due to bore axis differences...

The revolver "kicks". The 1911 "pushes".

Same round, same weight, same energy...

If you are use to a revolver "rolling" in your hand, the sharp push of a auto will feel strange, and vice versa.

Many 357 Mag and 40S&W loads display similar energy, but the perceived recoil is much different.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

For home and carry I think you should use what you are comfortable and most accurate with. I agree that Military and Police should use an auto although if you are in the Military and down to a handgun you're in some deep kimshee in a firefight.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

mccoy said:


> Gentlemen,
> I appreciate your balanced answers after my rantings.
> Of course, police forces were out of it. Their needs are different.
> 
> ...


Hey mccoy, if my attempt at dry humor confused you I apologise. I don't normaly get into running gun battles on my occasional trips to town. Also, I have begun wearing my GP 100 lately rather than M&P40 when I do go. The M&P is a bit heavier than P99's but I do understand and agree with your feelings regarding recoil of S&W.40 In plastic vs. .38 Specials in a heavy revolver. I spent most of today shooting my .40 with mid range reloads. (165 Gr. at 1000 FPS) and My 4" GP100 with almost .38 +P (158 Gr. at 900 FPS). The GP 100 definitely had the least perceived recoil. I also enjoy shooting the Revolver more than the Auto and find it easier to be accurate with. That said I plan on continuing with both of them. The reason I carry is not because it's so dangerous that I "NEED" to. I carry because I can and wish to. If most of us that do were to quit carrying we would quickly lose the right to.

You need to do what us Yanks do and get what makes you happy. Then shoot as much as you can or want to. Enjoy.

:smt1099


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

mccoy said:


> Gentlemen,
> I'm a little baffled by the importance you guys (private guys, not police officers of similar, of course) give to power of fire and combat situations.


As I said, a revolver is a perfectly adequate defensive tool for most armed citizens. America remains a somewhat violent place, which is the price we pay for having a non-homogeneous society, lousy immigration controls, and a higher level of individual freedom than most other countries. South Phoenix, for example, can be a fairly dangerous place for guys of certain skin colors.

Mainly I prefer the auto for the first two reasons I listed, plus I like flatter guns for carry. But I have never talked to anyone who wished for _less_ ammo in a fight.



> The main reason I'm repelled by autos is safety. It may be a bias of mine, but I'm always afraid that darn round may accidentally escape.


Like the trigger and recoil, you are blaming the gun for a human failing. Semiautos don't fire unless someone presses the trigger. I don't know if this translates well into Italian, but if you keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you're ready to shoot, you'll have no problems.

The one negligent discharge I had, many years ago, involved a revolver rather than an auto. Entirely my fault, of course, and I don't blame Smith and Wesson for it.



> As far as I know, it is told that (please correct me if I'm wrong) that revolvers are more accurate than semiautos.


That must be why all the winners at Camp Perry and the Olympics use autos.



> The Walther P99 .40 S&W is a great gun but, again, the rounds I shot were scattered all around the target, whereas the S&W is starting do display some intersting clusters, after only 2 shooting sessions.


Just because _you_, a novice shooter, fire a revolver more accurately than an auto does not invalidate autos. Anyway, relaxed shooting on a square range has little in common with defensive shooting, handgun hunting, or IPSC/IDPA competition.



> Even though a couple of 8-rounds smiths may yield 16 rounds with no reload needed.


_Two_ big revolvers? I'll take a single 18-round Glock 17, which is smaller, lighter, narrower, has a lower bore axis, shorter trigger reset...and I only have to carry ONE gun.



> By the way, I can see no need to carry where I go, with the possible exception of nocturnal stops on teh highway, with my kid in teh car.


That's fine. Everyone has their comfort zone. I prefer to go armed. It's not the odds - it's the stakes.



> the higher reliability of the revolver. reliability = inverse of probability of failure = probability of misfire. Even with minimum manteinance.


Wrong again. Modern autos like Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, etc. are all just as reliable as a revolver, and more so in harsh conditions. This has been proven over and over and over again in various military and police tests. I own two Glocks that have _never_ malfunctioned, despite my legendary ultra-lazy cleaning regimen. And I defy any revolver, with their small, delicate internal parts, to stand up to the dusty conditions here in the Middle East.


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## Lucky7 (Nov 7, 2007)

Jeff & Mike, hat's off! You pointed out why I truly love my semi-autos. With that being said I do have a place in my heart for wheel guns.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

mccoy said:


> Load One FN .357 mag
> Bullet weight in grains 160
> Velocity in fps 1492
> Powder charge in grains 14.1
> ...


A gun that weighs three times as much recoils less?? Really?? What a revelation! Someone call the newspapers! :mrgreen:

I believe the Walther P99 in .40 is around 23 ounces empty, however, which is closer to a pound and a half.

Regardless, a full-sized poly .40 isn't at all hard to control by any skilled shooter. Attached is a pic of me shooting a Glock 23, pistol in full recoil.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I gotta say that I beliegve the Walther P99 A/S to be the best handgun ever made - it is for me - *In 9mm!!!*

I have shot one in 40 cal, and I didn't like it either. If I had started with one in 40, I don't think I'd like the gun at all... You should have tried 9mm! Even my mom who is almost 70 can shoot my P99 decently.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> And I defy any revolver, with their small, delicate internal parts, to stand up to the dusty conditions here in the Middle East.


... Including your M9 Beretta with open slide?

Just wondering from the horse's mouth as an instructor at my local range was badmouthing the Beretta 92's in harsh middle-east and/or desert field environments. I'd love to tell him I'm told otherwise from someone that's there. Assuming the M9 and the 92SF are pretty much the same animal of course.

(sorry guys not to diverge from topic.. one question I had about that)


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## PanaDP (Jul 20, 2007)

When you compare the recoil of guns, you can't just do it on weight and bullet energy. You much take into account action as well. A semi-auto uses bullet energy to cycle the slide to eject the brass and reload the next round. Fighting those springs and moving the slide, brass, and new cartridge takes energy and thus reduces recoil energy.


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## 3/325 (Jan 16, 2008)

mccoy: Although I have a preference for semi-autos, I also enjoy revolvers very much. The problem in doing a comparison is that there are so many to choose from on either side. I haven't noticed that one type has a greater accuracy than the other, but I have noticed that people are often a better "fit" for one or the other. I shoot the same going between the Glock G30 (.45) and the Ruger GP100 (in .357) and I love them both.

Regarding the need for firepower, I can only say that it is better to have and not need than to need and not have. It's not that things are so tough out here (I stand an excellent chance of reaching the end of my life without ever needing a firearm) but most Americans approach the idea of self-defense from a strategic and tactical point of view. Semi-autos offer more rounds and a much quicker reload; and the polymer frames are much lighter. These are advantages although they don't in any way render the revolver obsolete.

I am a semi-auto man. But I will defend any law-abiding citizen who favors the revolver because we are more alike than different. Keep shooting, friend!

_Io un soldato paracadutista del Americano. Io habito in Vicenza per due e mezzo anni._ That's about all the Italian I remember!


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

babs said:


> ... Including your M9 Beretta with open slide?
> 
> Just wondering from the horse's mouth as an instructor at my local range was badmouthing the Beretta 92's in harsh middle-east and/or desert field environments. I'd love to tell him I'm told otherwise from someone that's there. Assuming the M9 and the 92SF are pretty much the same animal of course.


Same gun. The M9 is superbly reliable in all conditions, including dust/sand, as long as the low-bidder Checkmate magazines are religiously avoided. You can tell the goofball instructor I said so.

The M9 is far from perfect, being way too big for a 9mm, having a crummy trigger, and using a backwards safety. But it is extremely reliable. I have _never_ talked to anyone here, or the dozens of Iraq vets I personally know, who has complained about the M9's reliability.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks Mike. I've not had the pleasure, but I'd bet with all that metal in such a full-size gun, 9mm's feel like plinking though with that pistol.

Anyway.. sorry no more thread hijacking by me.. back to the whole wheel-guns vs autos business.


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

Boyz' I got some feedback...

First and foremost, I'm happy there is one authoritative voice supporting my statement: shipwreck found the P99 in .40 lousy as well. +1 for my sensitivity as a gunslinger, although a novice one (but folks, I warned you, in my previous life I sure was a hot one...:mrgreen::smt033). And, as a matter of fact, I remember many years ago shooting one Beretta, one Walther, one Sigsasuer (metal) all in 9mm and they weren't so wild.
Next time around, I'll promise you, I'm going and try a tamer 9mm specimen. And let you know.

*stormbringerr:* sig 229: OK thanks for the advise I'll see if I can get me hands upon one...

*Snowman*: a dedicated post later on for your answer, I agree with your derivative equation, but I think we should examine closely conservation of moment...

*baldy*: you sure right, we guys are nuts to insist on the math, a little bit of professional distortion here...

*jeffward:* recoil might be defined differently, I found the wiki definitions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil) may be satisfactory for all. 
Thumbs up on the bore axis-centerline and hand-grip distance. You're speaking about torque and that's pretty clear, even though I previously ignored the difference in torque betwween revolvers and pistols.
_The revolver "kicks". The 1911 "pushes"._ Great illustration! Loved that!

*Terryp: *yeah, it is sensible, the military use the rifle a lot, the pistol never. Unless as you sayin, they're deep in sh...oot!

*TOF:* I'm blessed! another supporting voice!! :smt041
I sure took you seriously, your 'city' might have been the bronx or 'The Valley' in LA.

*Mike:* Didn't know S. Phoenix was that bad. Safety: I got your drift, I've been studying the American slang in the past, though I'd need an update now. . Lesser safety, except human error, may be related to not knowing wether a round is in the barrel... or not???
Accuracy: from 9mm / 38sp up, of course. OK, I'll have a look at the range, in one year I'll let you know wether semiautos men shoot as a whole better than revolver men. My first impression wasn't so hot on the semiautos...Carrying: pls. note I'm not criticizing you guys for carrying, mine is just envy..:smt088:smt088 
Reliability: deserves another thread, going do some research before...Some berettas misfires here had dramatic (or fortunate)consequences. .40 poly recoil: see next answe

*shipwreck*: as said, that mule (p99 .40 poly) kicks bad, may be it's the specific project which did not come out too well...Mike says his glock is all right and I believe him. Well, apparently I blamed all semiautos on one faulty design... I'm chastised... But I'll try more and let you knowù

*PanaDP*: yes, more aspects to be factored into the equation..

*3/325:* hope your stay in Italy was pleasant enough. I understood your Italian all right. It's great to have you guys around, makes me feel safer. The American army is doing a great job of keeping the world a safer place, I'm happy Italy is giving her small contribution. Until the politicians will allow that. 
Ciao amico, piacere averti conosciuto!!! :smt1099:smt1099:smt1099


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

I would suggest a good hard hour at the range with a .454 casull... If the walls of the range can handle the percussion from the sheer magnitude of the explosion of those rounds. Might need an outdoor range, and you might get the "Dirty Harry" nickname for a while.. but.. Then any semi-auto .45 acp on down will feel like your plinking .22's. :mrgreen:


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

After seeing Mikes comment regarding South Phoenix, I have to chime back in.

I was raised in South Phoenix in the 40's and early 50's when it was still farm/dairy country. I walked all over the place day or night with no fear of any kind except the neighbors Brahama Bull might get loose. I would walk the 8 miles from home to downtown Phoenix to see a movie and then back after hours. Never 1 problem.

Fast Forward to 2008: If I had a dire need such as a child or grandchild stuck down there by some misfortunate circumstance, I would have my M&P40 on one side my GP-100 on the other and a shotgun to my right with extra rounds. I would also attempt to get a friend to ride shotgun with another shotgun.

In that situation mccoy, I would truly feel undergunned with only a 6 shot revolver.

This is not to imply that all residents of South Phoenix are evil but enough are to make me not want to visit my childhood neighborhood.

:smt1099


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

One of the most famous debates in history occurred betwen Col. Charles Askins and Bill Jordan, appearing as a series of articles in one of the gun magazine. Col. Askins started it off with an article entitled "Sixguns Are Clunks!" Bill Jordan countered with an article entitle "Come Now, Charlie!"
The series delighted the readers and sold magazines.

I've shot both autoloaders and sixguns. I love the single action Ruger and Colts. In the field trails of 1900, the U.S. Army ran all contestants through every conceivable test, finally selecting (in 1911) the Colt Government Model, more or less. In my opinion, that pistol has not been surpassed as a combat weapon. Bear in mind, the Army's combat weapon is the Infantry rifle, not a pistol.

The pistol offers the advantages already stated, power, accuracy, speed of reloading, easier follow-up shots, ruggedness, etc. And, even the auto loader can be a beautiful gun, blued, engraved, ivory grips, etc.

The revolver, on the other hand offers the ability to digest a greater range of ammunition power levels, from pipsqueak loads to fire snorting magnum levels, without a hitch in functioning. Also, for long range shooting, the revolver offers more power for flatter shooting loads. And, for the handloader, the empty brass is dropped into the palm of the hand. Auto loaders throw the empties all over God's Kingdom.

I enjoy the post hewre of those M1911s uncovered by correspondents here who stumble upon guns of some historic value. These can by no means be considered ugly.

People have often asked me what I have against golf, or blackpowder, or archery. My reply is that I have nothing against these pursuits, I just don't want to devote the time away from my present shooting disicipline to take up any of these. So it is with the pistol to me.

Bob Wright


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## Don357 (Dec 4, 2007)

Hey Mccoy,
You live in the place where one of the most accurate auto's is made, that being the Tanfoglio. They make a series of pistols called "Force" (which is similar to the CZ pistols) that is extremely accurate and even used in competition, and they even make a 1911 which we can't even get here in the US. They also make a series especially designed for competition. Try a Tanfoglio (or Witness as they're called here in the US), I think you'll like it. I have a polymer compact in .45acp and I do.

P.S. If you want to send me one of those Tanfoglio 1911's, I'll let you. LOL


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## mccoy (Dec 31, 2007)

Don,
I'm happy tanfoglio semiautos are appreciated in the sophisticated American market. I heard someone state they are far better than berettas, at least accuracy-wise.
Your post made me curious, I went and collect some data. In the recent IDPA European championships 50% of the Italian contestants shot a Tanfoglio (mostly limited series and P21L). The witness 1911 model here sells at 668 Euro-dollars (about 140 cents to the US$).
OK, next saturday at the range I'll try one.
I heard some guys complain the percussor gave troubles. What I believe is the best production is exported, the crappy..ahem, the faulty stocks are left for the domestic market. Happens all the time here in Italy!!


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