# Help with presumably unnamed shooting stance.



## Brdwthacgr (Aug 12, 2017)

I was doing some research on an old fashioned shooting stance demonstrated in a film called "The Fundamentals of Double Action Revolver Shooting" which you can find on Youtube. But no matter how hard I looked I couldn't find the name for the stance described in the video and pictured here:








Does anyone have a name or additional information for this particular stance?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

"The gunfighter's crouch," I'd call it.

Some people call it "the FBI crouch."


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## Brdwthacgr (Aug 12, 2017)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> "The gunfighter's crouch," I'd call it.
> 
> Some people call it "the FBI crouch."


If I could pick a name I'd call it the "Lawman's stance", because it sounds cool.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Try looking up Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton, and, especially, Charles Askins.
Look for books they wrote, particularly Askins's _The Art of Handgun Shooting_ (see the chapter: "Shooting by Instinctive Pointing.")


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Duck, so you don't get your ass shot, stance.


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## Brdwthacgr (Aug 12, 2017)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Try looking up Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton, and, especially, Charles Askins.
> Look for books they wrote, particularly Askins's _The Art of Handgun Shooting_ (see the chapter: "Shooting by Instinctive Pointing.")


Thanks for the help! I'll look into that.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Here is Mark Felt (aka. "Deep Throat" of Watergate fame) demonstrating the "FBI crouch":


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

I detested that instinctive pointing method being taught to LE or Military during the 1960's and there abouts. Nobody in any form of competition including active pistol or practical police would do such a thing. Here in America, we have a heritage in single handed holds starting back in the dueling and then wild west days. Even with Bullseye, my favorite shooting sport, it's a single handed system. It's just without a doubt, a good two handed firm stance is going to net a better chance of stopping an assailant in a real life situation. It's probably why that one handed instinctive pointing went out of common practice. 

I remember back in the very early 1970's we got a new instructor at the Police Academy. He was the retired police chief of Orlando. Right away, he switched over to the one handed FBI crouch from the newer two handed systems. He talked about pointing at things during the day to get into the habit. As a very junior guy in K-9, I made the mistake of asking why anyone would shoot that way a few days after being taught to seek cover first. He said for starters, if your hit first, you'll probably fall forward and might be able to get in more shots. What?!?! That's what I want to do, plan my stance to get shot. He said it allowed your free hand to use a flashlight or get your speed loader out. Finally, he claimed an instinctive pointer trained officer would always hit center mass on the first shot and if you didn't, would cause the bad guy to hesitate. Again, What??? Besides, we all know how effective the FBI was in the Miami Shootout. 

I even challenged him to contest me on the Academy range with random targets out to 25 yards. At this time, I was called on the carpet for making their new instructor angry and uncomfortable. I said it was better than getting students killed. Most of us just are not going to become an effective shot practicing with your finger on windows, bushes, and fire hydrants. I say "most of us," because I've heard of a very few who could hit aspirin tablets on the fly from a one handed draw of his SAA Colt. The great late Elmer Keith comes to mind.


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## Brdwthacgr (Aug 12, 2017)

Craigh said:


> I detested that instinctive pointing method being taught to LE or Military during the 1960's and there abouts. Nobody in any form of competition including active pistol or practical police would do such a thing. Here in America, we have a heritage in single handed holds starting back in the dueling and then wild west days. Even with Bullseye, my favorite shooting sport, it's a single handed system. It's just without a doubt, a good two handed firm stance is going to net a better chance of stopping an assailant in a real life situation. It's probably why that one handed instinctive pointing went out of common practice.
> 
> I remember back in the very early 1970's we got a new instructor at the Police Academy. He was the retired police chief of Orlando. Right away, he switched over to the one handed FBI crouch from the newer two handed systems. He talked about pointing at things during the day to get into the habit. As a very junior guy in K-9, I made the mistake of asking why anyone would shoot that way a few days after being taught to seek cover first. He said for starters, if your hit first, you'll probably fall forward and might be able to get in more shots. What?!?! That's what I want to do, plan my stance to get shot. He said it allowed your free hand to use a flashlight or get your speed loader out. Finally, he claimed an instinctive pointer trained officer would always hit center mass on the first shot and if you didn't, would cause the bad guy to hesitate. Again, What??? Besides, we all know how effective the FBI was in the Miami Shootout.
> 
> I even challenged him to contest me on the Academy range with random targets out to 25 yards. At this time, I was called on the carpet for making their new instructor angry and uncomfortable. I said it was better than getting students killed. Most of us just are not going to become an effective shot practicing with your finger on windows, bushes, and fire hydrants. I say "most of us," because I've heard of a very few who could hit aspirin tablets on the fly from a one handed draw of his SAA Colt. The great late Elmer Keith comes to mind.


LOL! Thats hilarious, thanks for sharing!


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

I am certainly not arguing that accuracy is much better shooting with a good two handed grip and proper stance. But the experience of Bob Stash, a Chicago policeman who is a veteran of 14 gunfights is interesting. Here is an audio recording of an interview with Bob:






The entire interview is long, but worth listening to. Some pertinent points appear in the comments below. Here are some of them:

He practices shooting at combat distances [out to 20 - 25 feet], and tries to shoot exclusively with one hand to learn to control the weapon.

"In a gunfight, your off hand will be occupied doing something like pushing, opening a door, using the radio, etc.."

He also said that standard range shooting positions are never acquired in combat. As to a combat crouch, he found himself almost sitting on his butt at times to get low, or behind something.

He is not a big fan of aimed fire, nor is he a precision shooter.

His shooting is instinctive shooting [like Point Shooting].

"What you do, is point your finger at the target with your finger along the slide of the pistol.

When the top of the gun is at eye level, and the eye, front sight or muzzle, and the target are in line, you will hit what you are aiming at."

In the 14 gunfights in only 2 or 3 cases was a two-handed grip used.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...But the issue is not one-handed shooting, but rather _the name of the pictured technique_.
It is not the advocation of one-handed shooting in the FBI crouch for the very first shot of an encounter.

Of course, one ought to practice every possible way of delivering an effective shot; but the FBI crouch has proven over time to be ineffective, if not silly.


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