# 3-year old picks up great grandpa’s pistol from nightstand, fatally shoots sister



## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...pistol-from-nightstand-fatally-shoots-sister/


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

That hurts. I have two grown daughters and between the two of them, three grandchildren; two boys and one girl. My younger daughter has the two boys, ages 9 and five (soon to be six), and I have told her that if she ever just happens to stop by, call first so that I can find a safe home for any firearms that might be out (it would be very unusual for one to be out in the open for anyone to see).

The great grandfather in this article made a one-time mistake that he'll now have to take to his grave. I just can't imagine having to deal with something like this.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

A tragedy indeed. It could have been avoided so easily by properly securing the firearm in the home, as we all know.

I never leave a firearm lying about in my own home. It's always secured to some degree or another.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

SouthernBoy said:


> That hurts. I have two grown daughters and between the two of them, three grandchildren; two boys and one girl. My younger daughter has the two boys, ages 9 and five (soon to be six), and I have told her that if she ever just happens to stop by, call first so that I can find a safe home for any firearms that might be out (it would be very unusual for one to be out in the open for anyone to see).
> 
> The great grandfather in this article made a one-time mistake that he'll now have to take to his grave. I just can't imagine having to deal with something like this.


It's not a "One-Time Mistake." People who are too cheap to buy a safe or lockbox are making that mistake every minute of every day. And it's not a "mistake;" it's stupidity & recklessness.

I don't know what you mean by "A safe home for your gun" but the only safe home for a gun is a lockbox or safe. People who say "I hid my gun so well....I keep my gun high up where my kids can't reach it....I taught my kids not to touch my gun..." etc. are headed for the same guilt they will take to their grave. And they'll deserve every bit of it.


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## Scorpion8 (Jan 29, 2011)

Not entirely. By the same token we should all be dead from being kids and riding in the back of open pickup trucks, hay wagons, non-child-proof wall sockets and so forth. A good degree of personal accountability is required unless we're all to become mindless drones that need to be protected by somebody else. Yes, I understand that a 3-year old doesn't have that, but when I do have guns out and around the chamber isn't loaded and/or the magazine isn't.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

win231 said:


> It's not a "One-Time Mistake." People who are too cheap to buy a safe or lockbox are making that mistake every minute of every day. And it's not a "mistake;" it's stupidity & recklessness.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "A safe home for your gun" but the only safe home for a gun is a lockbox or safe. People who say "I hid my gun so well....I keep my gun high up where my kids can't reach it....I taught my kids not to touch my gun..." etc. are headed for the same guilt they will take to their grave. And they'll deserve every bit of it.


I just love reading a very Progressive sort of opinion like this one. Essentially, you're saying that you know the way that everyone else should behave, and that your way is the only right way of doing things.

However, if we consult the source, we find: "Irondale Police Chief Ken Atkinson told AL.com and WIAT that _the children's great-grandfather had left the loaded pistol on his nightstand Saturday morning, not knowing that the children were coming over. He wasn't home at the time of the shooting_..." [emphasis added]

That is, the pistol was left out on a table, uncontrolled and unsupervised, by someone who didn't think that doing so was in any way a dangerous act, and who had left the area. That, then, was the irresponsible, deadly error which became the proximate cause of a child's death.
We who carry and use guns responsibly know from having been taught, from thinking rationally, and from the examples of others, that firearms should always be secured in one way or another. But to dictate the means of so securing a gun within the narrow range of your own beliefs smacks of Clintonian hoplophobia.
There are many, many ways for a responsible user to assure gun safety, and there is no good reason to dictate only a few, or even only one, as being acceptably safe.

My daughter grew up in a gun-owning household. There was always at least one loaded pistol around, all of the time. Nevertheless, that loaded pistol was never contained in any sort of lockbox or safe, because, if use of the gun became necessary, fumbling with a lock in order to get to it could lead to disastrous consequences. Think about that.
Instead of being locked up, the loaded, ready-to-use gun was always in the personal control of a trained and competent adult. Further, my daughter was trained from an early age to be gun-safe. Her natural curiosity was controlled by permitting her to explore every gun in the house while supervised by an adult, and while the gun in question was unloaded.
Although the one loaded pistol did indeed sit upon a night table during sleeping hours, the responsible adult was always near at hand. And when the adult got up out of bed, the gun went with him or her. When the child entered the bedroom while the adults were asleep, her gun-safe training was sufficient to achieve safety during the short time that it took for an adult to respond to the child's presence.

In the present case, great-grandfather acted irresponsibly and foolishly, and left a deadly tool in a place where it was easily available to an unsupervised child.
It does not matter that it was a gun. It might've been a chop saw, equally deadly to an unsupervised child.
But dictating the use of a lock-box or safe does not solve the problem. A child may defeat the lock. The adult may forget to secure the weapon in the box, as great-grandfather forgot to secure his weapon from off of the night stand.
The adults involved need to assume responsible control, over both the deadly tool and the children in the area. Only then will safety be possible.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I know lots of children are educated and trained about firearms, what they can do and how to behave when around them. 

But, kids being kids, that's just not good enough for me. I made lots of mistakes as a kid, and I knew better some of those times. I still screwed up, but it didn't cost anyone their life or harm anyone in the process. 

My point being......it's a good thing to educate kids about firearms, but it's not a 100% sure thing they will behave properly around one that has been left out in the open. 

I didn't have any kids of my own, but, I still secured my firearms in such a way, that no kid ever had any chance in Hell accessing any one of them. I would never be willing to bet the well-being or life of a child of mine (or anyone's) on the simple fact that they had been "trained" at some point to leave them alone.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> I know lots of children are educated and trained about firearms, what they can do and how to behave when around them.
> 
> But, kids being kids, that's just not good enough for me. I made lots of mistakes as a kid, and I knew better some of those times. I still screwed up, but it didn't cost anyone their life or harm anyone in the process.
> 
> ...


Exactly. My niece & nephew lived with me & they were both familiar with guns from an early age. Whenever my nephew wanted to handle a gun, he asked me & I always used the event to reinforce safe practices. But only a complete fool would bet his kid's life or the lives of his kid's friends on any training. Kids can be expected to make more mistakes than adults make.

And only an even bigger fool would expect a three year old to handle guns safely.

Another issue: As we get older, we tend to forget things - like that gun we forgot we left in the nightstand. Forgetfulness is not the same as "stupid" it's part of the aging process. _Stupid is leaving guns lying around....whether we have children in the house or not. _ I support charging such idiotic parents criminally - and much-more severely than currently.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

win231 said:


> Exactly. My niece & nephew lived with me & they were both familiar with guns from an early age. Whenever my nephew wanted to handle a gun, he asked me & I always used the event to reinforce safe practices. But only a complete fool would bet his kid's life or the lives of his kid's friends on any training. Kids can be expected to make more mistakes than adults make.
> 
> And only an even bigger fool would expect a three year old to handle guns safely.
> 
> Another issue: As we get older, we tend to forget things - like that gun we forgot we left in the nightstand. Forgetfulness is not the same as "stupid" it's part of the aging process. _Stupid is leaving guns lying around....whether we have children in the house or not. _ I support charging such idiotic parents criminally - and much-more severely than currently.


Lordy....lordy.....if that ain't the truth.........:smt017


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I just love reading a very Progressive sort of opinion like this one. Essentially, you're saying that you know the way that everyone else should behave, and that your way is the only right way of doing things.
> 
> "But dictating the use of a lock-box or safe does not solve the problem. *A child may defeat the lock."*
> 
> Um....Yup....Happens all the time - children defeating locks on lockboxes....that's the problem - an epidemic of genius children with telekinetic powers unlocking gun safes & killing other children. How does earth look from way up there?


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## sdh91 (Dec 12, 2015)

For me, there are two reasons I secure my pistol in a locked case: 1) for the safety of those who live in (or are invited into) my house and 2) to prevent someone who may break into my house from accessing the pistol and using it on me or stealing it and committing a crime with it. We recently had a LEO officer killed and the pistol used in his murder turned out to have been stolen from someone's car in Jacksonville, FL 6 months earlier.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

win231 said:


> Steve M1911A1 said:
> 
> 
> > I just love reading a very Progressive sort of opinion like this one. Essentially, you're saying that you know the way that everyone else should behave, and that your way is the only right way of doing things.
> ...


_Reductio ad absurdum_ doesn't make your authoritarian position look any better.
Perhaps read my entire post for content, rather than cherry-pick for tenuous objections.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

sdh91 said:


> For me, there are two reasons I secure my pistol in a locked case: 1) for the safety of those who live in (or are invited into) my house and 2) to prevent someone who may break into my house from accessing the pistol and using it on me or stealing it and committing a crime with it. We recently had a LEO officer killed and the pistol used in his murder turned out to have been stolen from someone's car in Jacksonville, FL 6 months earlier.


I'm surprised that more gun owners fail to consider those issues - that when they "hide" guns around their house, they're arming criminals & if they walk in on a burglar, they may end up looking at the wrong end of their own gun.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

win231 said:


> It's not a "One-Time Mistake." People who are too cheap to buy a safe or lockbox are making that mistake every minute of every day. And it's not a "mistake;" it's stupidity & recklessness.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "A safe home for your gun" but the only safe home for a gun is a lockbox or safe. People who say "I hid my gun so well....I keep my gun high up where my kids can't reach it....I taught my kids not to touch my gun..." etc. are headed for the same guilt they will take to their grave. And they'll deserve every bit of it.


You are _way _off base with this post. You assume a great deal while lacking a great deal of knowledge.

You don't know me. You have no idea of who I am, how I live, where I live, the type of house I live in, it's layout, how I store my firearms, and my life's experience with arms.

The "one-time mistake" of which I wrote meant the round that exited the barrel of his gun. You can't call that back. That was his one-time mistake.

"safe home for any firearms" simply means what I perceive at the specific time to be a safe haven for a firearm. That could be a safe, the trunk of one of my cars that happens to be locked in my garage, or any one of a number of places. I don't take chances and your ignorance of me and how I conduct myself is at best, offensive.

So you might want to bury your lack of civility and try to find a measure of character before jumping to unfounded conclusions next time you address someone's post.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

win231 said:


> People who are too cheap to buy a safe or lockbox are making that mistake every minute of every day. And it's not a "mistake;" it's stupidity & recklessness.


There is just the wife and me...... No children come into our home...... So if I did not have a safe or lock box does that makes me cheap.........

*The great grandfather in this article made a one-time mistake that he'll now have to take to his grave. I just can't imagine having to deal with something like this.*

Everyone has made a mistake(s) in their life time most are not a big deal....... However every now and then the mistake has tragic consequences.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

Stories like this makes it more difficult for all gun owners. It's just another example of somebody not taking enough safety care of their guns and giving the anti's more to talk about and use against us. 

Be careful out there and each of us review how we secure your guns!!!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Spike12 said:


> Stories like this makes it more difficult for all gun owners. It's just another example of somebody not taking enough safety care of their guns and giving the anti's more to talk about and use against us.
> 
> Be careful out there and each of us review how we secure your guns!!!


With the exception of a carry gun or two, my firearms are all locked away in a high quality safe. It would be worse than foolish for anyone who wishes to keep a firearm at the ready to have it locked up somewhere and suddenly find they have an immediate need for it. But then, nature does have a way of filtering out the foolish from time to time. Sad thing is, there are occasions when an innocent party is victim to the folly of the foolish.

I have spent a fair amount of time coming up with what I believe to be a workable solution to both having a weapon available quickly and having it safe. Like you, there is only the wife and I in the picture. When the grandkids come over, I do what I must to make sure there are no firearms accessible to them. The granddaughter I don't worry about. She's thirteen and has a very solid head on her shoulders. The two grandsons are the concern, which is why I mentioned that I gave orders to their mother to let me know if she decides to stop by unannounced.

As for my daughters... I started teaching them about guns when they were quite young. They are fine around firearms.

Much gets said about the storage of firearms in homes. I believe that there are a few states that have laws about having guns out when children are present in the home. This is lunacy in my opinion and just another example of the encroachment of government into our lives and its attempt to further diminish our rights. But then, I don't live in a state like that so I needn't worry... for the moment.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Cait43 said:


> There is just the wife and me...... No children come into our home...... So if I did not have a safe or lock box does that makes me cheap.........
> 
> *The great grandfather in this article made a one-time mistake that he'll now have to take to his grave. I just can't imagine having to deal with something like this.*
> 
> Everyone has made a mistake(s) in their life time most are not a big deal....... However every now and then the mistake has tragic consequences.


Yes, especially when the gun owner's stupidity causes it.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I suggest that you stop trying to beat us over the head with your solid-wooden opinion. We've already got it. We understand your point-of-view.
Now, please stop making judgements about the "stupidity" of others. Let it go, or you'll begin to look pretty stupid yourself.

A good teacher knows when the point has been made to the best of one's ability, and doesn't need to use offensive names and words to forcefully push an idea across.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I suggest that you stop trying to beat us over the head with your solid-wooden opinion. We've already got it. We understand your point-of-view.
> Now, please stop making judgements about the "stupidity" of others. Let it go, or you'll begin to look pretty stupid yourself.
> 
> A good teacher knows when the point has been made to the best of one's ability, and doesn't need to use offensive names and words to forcefully push an idea across.


The one who's stupid is the one who thinks the death of a child is an acceptable risk of gun ownership. And, there's nothing that can be done about it.

And, I'm not your teacher.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

win231 said:


> ...And, I'm not your teacher.


Um, according to a previous "conversation" we had, you put yourself forth as an instructor in firearms.
So, OK, you're an "instructor," not a teacher.
But you still need to know when to stop: "A good [instructor] knows when the point has been made to the best of one's ability, and doesn't need to use offensive names and words to forcefully push an idea across."

That's enough.
I'm outta here.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

win231 said:


> The one who's stupid is the one who thinks the *death of a child is an acceptable risk of gun ownership*. And, there's nothing that can be done about it.
> 
> And, I'm not your teacher.


This part makes no sense. Were it true, no one who has children would own firearms since theoretically that would pose an unacceptable risk. Let me take this a little further.

Suppose a neighbor of mine had a horrible incident in his home very similar to the one in the OP. Does that infer that my ownership of firearms is unacceptable, or that if I deem this to be acceptable then I am stupid? In other words, the two parts of this sentence's subject are mutually exclusive because children do die from a variety of things and a few of those deaths every year are by the misuse of a firearm. And I imagine that the people on this website deem such a risk to be acceptable to their ownership of firearms because almost certainly, none of these deaths involved their children.

I raised two daughters. I'm quite certain that there were a few children who suffered death from a firearm during that time. Yet there is no way I would have deemed that to be a risk in my household. I'm really not quite sure how to read your statement because if someone lost a child through such a tragic incident, I would bet that they would not be thinking that having a firearm was an acceptable risk. I would imagine they would be questioning where they went wrong in their method of securing that arm, among a host of other thoughts, and be in extreme agony for their loss.


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

I think what reading this article best does is either serve as a wake up call if 'we' have not considered all the inherent risks of firearm ownership and/or gets us to take a look at how we carry/store/secure our firearms.
Let's stop poking each other like a kid poking a beehive to see what's going to happen and accept that a tragedy happened that in hindsight was easily preventable and do what we can to prevent such a tragedy from happening around us.
Educate ourselves and gun owning friends and family


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I would never leave a handgun out in the open while I'm asleep at night. I use the only place the gun should be, under the mattress, lol.
*Plus the further you shove the gun under the mattress the safer it is.*
I sleep on today's modern mattress, they are so big n heavy, unbelievable.
:smt033


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

SouthernBoy said:


> This part makes no sense. Were it true, no one who has children would own firearms since theoretically that would pose an unacceptable risk. Let me take this a little further.
> 
> Suppose a neighbor of mine had a horrible incident in his home very similar to the one in the OP. Does that infer that my ownership of firearms is unacceptable, or that if I deem this to be acceptable then I am stupid? In other words, the two parts of this sentence's subject are mutually exclusive because children do die from a variety of things and a few of those deaths every year are by the misuse of a firearm. And I imagine that the people on this website deem such a risk to be acceptable to their ownership of firearms because almost certainly, none of these deaths involved their children.
> 
> I raised two daughters. I'm quite certain that there were a few children who suffered death from a firearm during that time. Yet there is no way I would have deemed that to be a risk in my household. I'm really not quite sure how to read your statement because if someone lost a child through such a tragic incident, I would bet that they would not be thinking that having a firearm was an acceptable risk. I would imagine they would be questioning where they went wrong in their method of securing that arm, among a host of other thoughts, and be in extreme agony for their loss.


The issue is not firearms ownership. The issue is reckless storage. I think you get it, even though you pretend you don't.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

win231 said:


> The issue is not firearms ownership. The issue is reckless storage. I think you get it, even though you pretend you don't.


I don't pretend when it comes to cars, boats, and firearms.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I keep a handgun within reach at all times, never in a locked safe. Keeping your (go to gun) in a locked safe is worse then carrying an unchambered handgun. I know how much carrying an unchambered handgun mean to some.
BUT, for me I will carry unchambered some of the time.

My goal is to keep the percentages low(a negligible discharge) .
The percentages high (gun availability).
:smt1099

I personally don't practice or apply the "*keep your finger off the trigger and you're good to go mentality"*

That type of thinking, that begins at your LGS is flawed and unforgiving. 
If my personal in house (go to gun ) was picked up accidentally,(which has never happened) they could pull the trigger all day long,,,,the gun will not fire..

This is just me, my opinion based on over 40 years of firearm experience , 
DID I GO OFF SUBJECT ? Again,,I hope I'm at least close, 
Peace to all..


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

...And so on & so on...

Florida Boy Fatally Shot After Cousin Falls Off Hoverboard, Discharges Gun - NBC News


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

BackyardCowboy said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...pistol-from-nightstand-fatally-shoots-sister/


The Washington Post is, has, and always will be against the 2nd Amendment and the civilian possession of firearms. With very few exceptions, same for the national news media. I'm not trying to make excuses for those who leave firearms lying around where unauthorized hands can get ahold of them. Each and every time that incidents such as this take place it will be exploited by the media and not do our cause any good. That being said I wonder how many times they report incidents of children dying, or being injured of other causes regarding more commonly available household items or hazardous conditions? Such as drowning in swimming pools, ingesting poisonous substances/drugs, tripping and falling down stairs, playing with matches, etc. or any other cause that could be in some way attributed to negligence on the part of adults whose children are under their care? It may make the local news but by and large be ignored by the national news media as it does not suit their agenda. There never is any hue and cry to ban any of those items of which unsupervised children can and do commonly get their hands on. I'm sure if you were to add these all up more children are injured or killed by those items other than by firearms.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

win231 said:


> ...And so on & so on...
> 
> Florida Boy Fatally Shot After Cousin Falls Off Hoverboard, Discharges Gun - NBC News


This article is about a felon owning a handgun, and he was not a responsible gun owner for improperly securing his illegal handgun, such bull crap the way the news media portrays the incident..

*The gun owner, Walter Morame, wasn't home when the incident occurred, but was arrested Sunday for possessing a weapon as a felon. He was convicted in 2006 of battery of a law enforcement officer, the newspaper reported.*


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Simply put, this has happened before and sadly will happen again....... We are dealing with human beings and human nature which has been pretty much the same throughout the ages........ Yes we should all try to be responsible but no one is perfect..... Calling someone that has a lapse in judgement an idiot, stupid, lazy, etc., etc. really serves no purpose...... This grandfather will live with this event the rest of his life.........

Bottom line: *We all live in glass houses...........*


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Cait43 said:


> Simply put, this has happened before and sadly will happen again....... We are dealing with human beings and human nature which has been pretty much the same throughout the ages........ Yes we should all try to be responsible but no one is perfect..... Calling someone that has a lapse in judgement an idiot, stupid, lazy, etc., etc. really serves no purpose...... This grandfather will live with this event the rest of his life.........
> 
> Bottom line: *We all live in glass houses...........*


Great point!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

win231 said:


> The issue is not firearms ownership. The issue is reckless storage. I think you get it, even though you pretend you don't.


Ah but you specifically said, "gun ownership". But let's for a moment, consider storage. There are many ways to store a SD firearm. And there are many ways one can create a state for that firearm to be in, storage notwithstanding. For example, any carry gun which I might have out of my safe for any reason, does NOT simply lay on a table all by itself. It is inserted into a holster which offers a measure of retention to both protect its trigger from unwanted or accidental pressure, and to facilitate safe movement from different locations. Even when I sleep, my SD gun resides in such a holster so that if I am suddenly awakened and reach for my gun (think a dream or a sudden unrecognizable sound) I will be detained for a moment in removing my gun because of the holster's purchase on its frame.

Storage does assume a variety of postures and that is all well and good. Storage which is irresponsible in light of others in the vicinity who raise concerns is dangerous and an accident waiting to happen. There is no one size fits all in any of this. One's home, its style and layout, who lives in that home, the area in which they live, and a host of other factors will dictate how one might want to have a firearm at the ready.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Cait43 said:


> Simply put, this has happened before and sadly will happen again....... We are dealing with human beings and human nature which has been pretty much the same throughout the ages........ Yes we should all try to be responsible but no one is perfect..... Calling someone that has a lapse in judgement an idiot, stupid, lazy, etc., etc. really serves no purpose...... This grandfather will live with this event the rest of his life.........
> 
> Bottom line: *We all live in glass houses...........*


All the glass in my house was broken out years ago.

It can and does get drafty at times, but I've become used to it.


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## joethebear (Nov 24, 2015)

My prayers and thoughts for the family. What a tragic event. I have grandchildren of the age of curiosity and I cannot comprehend how this man must be feeling.
How horrible.
Like I said prayers and thoughts for the family is more important than all the second guessing and nasty attitude hatefullness that is happening here.

very sad

Joethebear


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