# Home Protection Shotguns: Newcomer asking



## pedro45

Folks, this has been a wonderful resource, I'm putting some of the suggestions right into action at MFS, etc. 
But I need to go the well once more:
Which is a great shotgun for home protection?? Without paying a 1000 bucks.. and what kind of shells for same purpose? My brother says have the first one be birdshot and the next ones mean business, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated, thanks


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## GCBHM

First, I recommend an AR15 for home protection; however, my second recommendation is a good 12 gauge shotgun. I recommend the following in no particular order, tactical or riot gun model of course:

Remington 870
Mossberg 500
Winchester 1300


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## rustygun

I would say buck shot would be your best choice. I don't agree with using bird shot first you may only get one shot. If the situation is serious enough that you are going to pull the trigger you better make it count. "don't point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot and don't shoot anything you don't want to KILL". I never really agreed with using an AR-15 because of what could happen if you miss these powerful rifle cartridges can travel a long way.


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## nbk13nw

I agree. If you have to shoot then expect to kill. I load 00 buck.


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## SouthernBoy

I have a Winchester 1300 Defender with the dayglow front sight and kevlar stock. For defensive work, I have police 00 Buck loads but prefer #4 Buck. In the home if I was of a mind to employee that shotgun, I would prefer a lighter load. The close quarters of a home are not going to put you at any real distance so a lighter load is still going to be pretty devastating.

However, I much prefer a handgun over a long gun for in home use for a number of reasons.


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> "However, I much prefer a handgun over a long gun for in home use for a number of reasons."


Absolutely! Long guns can be unwieldy and more easily wrestled out of your hand, particularly if taken by surprise by an intruder. A centerfire rifle, is definitely not recommended for home defense the risk to innocent bystanders is far too great.


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## Smitty79

Simple solution:
Double stack hand gun for when you need close quarters work.
18.5 in barrel pump shotgun with mag extension to give 6 rounds in tube. May want to go to 7. Lots of good guns out there. Standard is Remington 870 or Mossberg 500.
AR-15 with 14.5 in barrel with pinned flash hider to satisfy the feds.

In a purely defensive situation, use the hand gun to get to the long guns and "hunker" down and wait for the police. If I have to move to help other family members in the house, I will us my Glock.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> Absolutely! *Long guns can be unwieldy and more easily wrestled out of your hand, particularly if taken by surprise by an intruder.* A centerfire rifle, is definitely not recommended for home defense the risk to innocent bystanders is far too great.


This is precisely what I had in mind. When I was in college I wrote a paper on firearms for home defense. Granted this is a personal choice and an opinion, but it is also based upon some objective facts. Now I don't advocate taking the offensive in the form of searching the house for any BG's. Best to have a solid place from which you can command a level of security and deliver fire if needed/possible. The handgun is far less problematic when trying to maneuver or entering a door opening or corner IF you chose to seek out the perp.

There are a few other considerations as well, but again... they tend to be personal preferences.


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## SouthernBoy

Smitty79 said:


> Simple solution:
> Double stack hand gun for when you need close quarters work.
> 18.5 in barrel pump shotgun with mag extension to give 6 rounds in tube. May want to go to 7. Lots of good guns out there. Standard is Remington 870 or Mossberg 500.
> AR-15 with 14.5 in barrel with pinned flash hider to satisfy the feds.
> 
> In a purely defensive situation, use the hand gun to get to the long guns and "hunker" down and wait for the police. If I have to move to help other family members in the house, I will us my Glock.


If I lived on several acres and had an outbuilding or two which were subject to burglarizing or arson, then a shotgun or an AR would be a very good choice. I tend to think along the lines of what's best for my specific situation and requirements. I live in a two-story colonial home. It's just me and my wife and we do have a plan in case we need to respond to an intrusion. We have only had to put that plan into play once since we had this home built. And it turned out to be a non-event (heavy rains with a close lightning strike caused our alarm to go off).

But as in so many things, it really boils down to personal preferences.


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## GCBHM

*Training, training, training*



desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> Absolutely! Long guns can be unwieldy and more easily wrestled out of your hand, particularly if taken by surprise by an intruder. A centerfire rifle, is definitely not recommended for home defense the risk to innocent bystanders is far too great.


First of all, If you purchase any weapon, load it and put it in safe keeping then don't even waste the time of purchasing a weapon. I keep a Glock 17 Gen 4 in the night stand, and an AR15 handy as well. Why? You can never be over prepared. Practice with the weapon. Get comfortable with it. Put yourself in scenarios in your house where you can think about and simulate what you would do in the case of an invasion. No, you can never simulate what you will actually do, but the more time you spend training the odds are increased in your favor. And to the one who said no to the idea of an AR15 for home defense b/c you will miss...DON'T MISS!!! TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.

Don't think that just b/c you have a shot gun, or any gun for that matter, that you're protected. If you don't know how to use it, you might as well not have one. So take the time to train with the weapon!


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> "Now I don't advocate taking the offensive in the form of searching the house for any BG's. Best to have a solid place from which you can command a level of security and deliver fire if needed/possible."


Good advise, SouthernBoy. Personally, if I can get the Hell out of the house I will, no material item that I own is worth what it will cost you to defend yourself in a potential multi million dollar lawsuit. Make no mistake about it you will get sued.


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## desertman

GCBHM:
Missing the target is not the issue, it's what happens when the bullets pass thru the target at relatively close range, penetrate several walls and hit someone or something that was not intended.


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> First of all, If you purchase any weapon, load it and put it in safe keeping then don't even waste the time of purchasing a weapon. I keep a Glock 17 Gen 4 in the night stand, and an AR15 handy as well. Why? You can never be over prepared. Practice with the weapon. Get comfortable with it. Put yourself in scenarios in your house where you can think about and simulate what you would do in the case of an invasion. No, you can never simulate what you will actually do, but the more time you spend training the odds are increased in your favor. And to the one who said no to the idea of an AR15 for home defense b/c you will miss...DON'T MISS!!! TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.
> 
> Don't think that just b/c you have a shot gun, or any gun for that matter, that you're protected. If you don't know how to use it, you might as well not have one. So take the time to train with the weapon!


I have at least two firearms at my ready disposal at all times when home. And yes, I do as you suggested. I train with them and I imagine a variety of situations where I might have to employee one or more of those arms.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> Good advise, SouthernBoy. Personally, if I can get the Hell out of the house I will, no material item that I own is worth what it will cost you to defend yourself in a potential multi million dollar lawsuit. Make no mistake about it you will get sued.


Such suits are very rare in Virginia*. In the event one does arise, I have insurance to cover such a thing.

Someone who breaks into your home after the sun has set is a burglar and burglary is one of the five felonies which can be responded to with deadly force (the other four being rape, robbery, arson, and murder). The perp or his family, is going to have a hard time convincing a jury or wrongful injury or death when he was shot during the act of one of these felonies. Not saying some shyster might want to try but it's going to be a tough case to win.

*Sources: Loudoun County Commonwealth's Attorney, man running for sheriff of Loudoun county.


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> I have at least two firearms at my ready disposal at all times when home. And yes, I do as you suggested. I train with them and I imagine a variety of situations where I might have to employee one or more of those arms.


Well good! Good for you.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> Missing the target is not the issue, it's what happens when the bullets pass thru the target at relatively close range, penetrate several walls and hit someone or something that was not intended.


Yes, I'm aware of what penetration is. Don't think that 00 buck won't go through a target and penetrate at close range either. No, probably not quite as well as a 5.56 round, but then just about any fast moving projectile is going to penetrate multiple objects at close range. There is no perfect scenario. My advice is to pick up something that shoots and get busy if you have to. I want as many rounds as possible in my hands if I have to. A shotgun is serviceable, but my G17 or AR will be preferable. At least for me.


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## GCBHM

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> Good advise, SouthernBoy. Personally, if I can get the Hell out of the house I will, no material item that I own is worth what it will cost you to defend yourself in a potential multi million dollar lawsuit. Make no mistake about it you will get sued.


Could not agree with this more! Get somewhere you can defend your self if you have to, call 911 and hope you don't have to kill anyone. At least that's the way I look at it. Most ppl who do break in while you're at home don't mean to, and if they do, you're probably into a lot more than just work and play. You probably ain't gonna make it!


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> "The perp or his family, is going to have a hard time convincing a jury or wrongful injury or death when he was shot during the act of one of these felonies."


We have the "Castle Law" here in Arizona too, and you have no duty to retreat. However, once a lawsuit is filed you will have to hire an attorney to defend yourself in court even if they can't possibly win. Insurance or no insurance you are still going to be dragged through the ringer. Believe me I wish it weren't so, but in today's litigious society it is an almost certainty. Depending on the jury no one can predict what the outcome will be. After all O J Simpson was found not guilty of murder, but found civilly liable. A travesty of justice if there ever was one, he should have been flapping like a fish on a gurney. Sad as it is the criminal justice system as we know it is irreparably broken and the only ones who benefit from it are the trial lawyers, who also happen to be the politicians who pass these laws, designed the system, and only care about their bottom line. If it were up to me anyone who gets caught for minor theft would lose one finger for each offense. Burglary or armed robbery they lose a hand plus 25 years, no parole. Any type of violent crime that could cause death or serious bodily injury, life in prison at hard labor, no chance whatsoever for parole. Same for sexual assault. Intentional murder, mandatory death sentence to take place within a year, only one appeal. Will this ever happen? Hell no! But I'll bet we wouldn't have a crime problem. Unfortunately these same trial lawyers/politicians for the most part are more interested in rendering potential crime victims defenseless. Why not make it easy for criminals? After all the more crime that there is and the easier it is to commit those crimes, the more business the lawyers/politicians will have. If more people had the means to defend themselves and without any civil repercussions for their actions this would also reduce the amount of crime, and the bottom line of the lawyers/politicians. It's all about money and greed. Unfortunately not everyone can afford liability insurance in case of a lawsuit against them for legitimately exercising a God given right, nor should they have to. It could even get to the point where it would be prohibitively expensive to own just one gun if legislators require insurance as a condition to own a firearm as some have already proposed. This just goes to show how screwed up this country really is. It's a shame that the American people let them get away with this.


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## paratrooper

+1 to *NOT* using a long gun for home defense.


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## Bhoffman

A 12 ga shotgun loaded with 3" #4 Buckshot will send 42 .243 projectiles each time you pull the trigger. With 5 rounds, that is 210 projectiles!

An AR15 will send ONE .223 round each time you pull the trigger. With a 30 round mag., that is 30 projectiles.


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## GCBHM

Bhoffman said:


> A 12 ga shotgun loaded with 3" #4 Buckshot will send 42 .243 projectiles each time you pull the trigger. With 5 rounds, that is 210 projectiles!
> 
> An AR15 will send ONE .223 round each time you pull the trigger. With a 30 round mag., that is 30 projectiles.


That sounds good, but uh....

To each his own. If you want a shotgun with five rounds of buckshot, go for it. I tend to believe more rounds keeps me in the fight longer. So have at it with your five shots. Chances are that may be all you need. I'll take my chances with four 30 round mags of .223 and 51 rounds of 9MM.


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## nbk13nw

I too have multiple guns to choose from.... But the OP was asking about shotguns.


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## GCBHM

nbk13nw said:


> I too have multiple guns to choose from.... But the OP was asking about shotguns.


Yep, and I gave my recommendation to the OP.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman;

We don't have a Castle Law in Virginia but what we have is at least as good in several ways. I expect we'll get a Castle Law sometime down the road. I only hope it doesn't water down what we already have here. And Virginia is not a "duty to retreat" state.

As for civil suits, as I mentioned they are rare here. Not saying they can't or haven't happened. They're just not at all common. But I certainly would not want to be dragged through the courts with a civil suit chasing me down. That's why I purchased an insurance policy to cover just such incidents. The Zimmerman case convinced me that what currently sits in the white house and what runs the DOJ is not friendly to folks like me. In a word, they are racist as hell. So some extra protection was the answer for me.


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## denner

SouthernBoy said:


> Best to have a solid place from which you can command a level of security and deliver fire if needed/possible.


If this is the case nothing beats a defensive 12 gauge shotgun, especially over; 9, .40 or .45, if you know how to use it. Of course some posters are seemingly thinking about taking on a battery of Taliban in a prolonged firefight or are a very sorry shot. A shotgun properly loaded trumps a pistol 10 fold in the energy department. A shotgun properly loaded is true "knock down power" at close range and is somewhat less picky in the accuracy department depending.

The major advantage a shot gun has is not only it's energy, but the fact it creates multiple trauma to the target w/ one shot, using 4 or 6 shot and or buckshot. Lastly a slug or sabot, albeit not multiple, but very, very, devastating none the less.


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## GCBHM

denner said:


> If this is the case nothing beats a defensive 12 gauge shotgun, especially over; 9, .40 or .45, if you know how to use it. Of course some posters are seemingly thinking about taking on a battery of Taliban in a prolonged firefight or are a very sorry shot. A shotgun properly loaded trumps a pistol 10 fold in the energy department. A shotgun properly loaded is true "knock down power" at close range and is somewhat less picky in the accuracy department depending.
> 
> The major advantage a shot gun has is not only it's energy, but the fact it creates multiple trauma to the target w/ one shot, using 4 or 6 shot and or buckshot. Lastly a slug or sabot, albeit not multiple, but very, very, devastating none the less.


An interesting point of view indeed. Not one I disagree with entirely; however, which will be more manageable. A shotgun or a pistol? As to the silliness of expecting an assault from the Taliban...never mind. There are a lot of "experts" who really have nothing but their opinions to stand on. This one is no different.


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## Smitty79

I am just an internet commando. But...

I think it's pretty simple. If you have to move in your house, to get to a child in another bed rooms for example, a pistol is better because it's harder to lose control of it. In a barricade situation, a shotgun with a double stack pistol as back up when it's dry, is best. 

The AR is in there someplace. I believe I've read studies that it doesn't penetrate walls very well so it's a viable home defense weapon. I believe SWAT type folks used to use 9mm stuff like MP5s because they were worried about over penetration. But more recent studies show a 5.56 with 55gn bullet is no more dangerous on a miss and lot more dangerous, to the perp, on a hit.


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## GCBHM

Smitty79 said:


> I am just an internet commando. But...
> 
> I think it's pretty simple. If you have to move in your house, to get to a child in another bed rooms for example, a pistol is better because it's harder to lose control of it. In a barricade situation, a shotgun with a double stack pistol as back up when it's dry, is best.
> 
> The AR is in there someplace. I believe I've read studies that it doesn't penetrate walls very well so it's a viable home defense weapon. I believe SWAT type folks used to use 9mm stuff like MP5s because they were worried about over penetration. But more recent studies show a 5.56 with 55gn bullet is no more dangerous on a miss and lot more dangerous, to the perp, on a hit.


Good points! I would not back away from using a shotgun, but I have the AR backed by my 17.


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## berettatoter

Well, here is mine:

It is an H&R 1871 (an 870 clone). I paid 200 dollars for it, and it functions great. It does kick like a mule though. It takes Remington 870 after-market parts, except for the barrel. I have ran about 100 rounds through it so far, from birdshot to buckshot, without a hitch. I usually keep it ready with 00 buck.


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## denner

Winchester SXP Defender, mix of Fiocchi low recoil slugs and 00 Buck. Kick is very manageable and a very quick cycler as well.


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## rustygun

I am getting inspired to turn my 30 year old Mossberg country squire into a home defense shot gun. I don't seem to use it for hunting anymore. I even have the 24" slug barrel for it. Hmmmm.


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## lefty60

I seems like this kind of question always turns to disagreement and even name calling.

To answer the OP's question;
Based on my experience and training, for Home Defense, I use a 9mm or .40cal. pistol and 12ga. pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot.

As always, get as much as you can of the best training you can find. Then make your decisions on how to protect your home and family.

Just my 2 bits worth:mrgreen:


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## paratrooper

I guess if I lived in a very large house with big, wide hallways, big rooms, and lots of open spaces, I might consider a shotgun. 

But, that's not my case. Rooms tend to be small, hallways narrow, and not nearly enough open spaces. Come to think of it, I should go buy a bigger house. :watching:


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## denner

paratrooper said:


> I guess if I lived in a very large house with big, wide hallways, big rooms, and lots of open spaces, I might consider a shotgun.
> 
> But, that's not my case. Rooms tend to be small, hallways narrow, and not nearly enough open spaces. Come to think of it, I should go buy a bigger house. :watching:





SouthernBoy said:


> Best to have a solid place from which you can command a level of security and deliver fire if needed/possible.


Yes, I agree, wielding a long gun in confined spaces throughout a small house is not optimal, but in the scenario described above an 18" barreled HD shotgun is an excellent option, if you can shoot one. In other words, I myself would not feel at a disadvantage in the scenario described above with a HD shotgun. Like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages.


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## paratrooper

denner said:


> Yes, I agree, wielding a long gun in confined spaces throughout a small house is not optimal, but in the scenario described above an 18" barreled HD shotgun is an excellent option, if you can shoot one.


Maybe it's just me, but I always like to have my left hand free and available at a moment's notice. I've found that it can come in pretty handy at times. :smt002


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I always like to have my left hand free and available at a moment's notice. I've found that it can come in pretty handy at times. :smt002


There is a great deal of truth and common sense to this.


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> There is a great deal of truth and common sense to this.


I'd really have to agree.


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## denner

paratrooper said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I always like to have my left hand free and available at a moment's notice. I've found that it can come in pretty handy at times. :smt002


Paratropper, yes, that may be an advantage over a shouldered weapon. You being retired law enforcement(thank you for your service by the way), let me pose this one question? If you knew or anticipated, (anticipated being the main word), that you were about to face an imminently dangerous situation, would you prepare to confront that situation armed w/ a handgun or a shoulder fired weapon, regardless if you had that one hand free or not? The FBI, the holy grail of law enforcement strongly subscribes to the latter.:smt083


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## paratrooper

denner said:


> Paratropper, yes, that may be an advantage over a shouldered weapon. You being retired law enforcement(thank you for your service by the way), let me pose this one question? If you knew or anticipated, (anticipated being the main word), that you were about to face an imminently dangerous situation, would you prepare to confront that situation armed w/ a handgun or a shoulder fired weapon, regardless if you had that one hand free or not? The FBI, the holy grail of law enforcement strongly subscribes to the latter.:smt083


Given a choice and enough advance warning, and if the environment dictated, I'd take a long gun over a handgun any day of the week.

But, the OP asked about home protection. That's what I was working off of. If one is very experienced and well-versed in handling a long gun in tight confines, then yes, it would be more than worthy.

Just one little comment on the FBI. I know that they are the supposed measure of LE in America. To some degree, I suppose they could be. But, it's the average street cop / deputy that is out every night that makes our society as safe as it is.

When the FBI goes into action, they have advance notice and have planned for whatever they are doing. They are always in force, well-prepared, and have top-notch gear. That is to say, that they don't patrol in one man cars, don't respond to domestic calls (some of the most dangerous to cops) and make felony car stops on a moment's notice. I could go on and on, but I hope that I've made my point.

They do what they do very well, but they have all the time, man-power, and equipment in the world, to do it.


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## lefty60

paratrooper said:


> Given a choice and enough advance warning, and if the environment dictated, I'd take a long gun over a handgun any day of the week.
> 
> But, the OP asked about home protection. That's what I was working off of. If one is very experienced and well-versed in handling a long gun in tight confines, then yes, it would be more than worthy.
> 
> Just one little comment on the FBI. I know that they are the supposed measure of LE in America. To some degree, I suppose they could be. But, it's the average street cop / deputy that is out every night that makes our society as safe as it is.
> 
> When the FBI goes into action, they have advance notice and have planned for whatever they are doing. They are always in force, well-prepared, and have top-notch gear. That is to say, that they don't patrol in one man cars, don't respond to domestic calls (some of the most dangerous to cops) and make felony car stops on a moment's notice. I could go on and on, but I hope that I've made my point.
> 
> They do what they do very well, but they have all the time, man-power, and equipment in the world, to do it.


Well said paratrooper. In times past I have received some fine firearms training from FBI instructors. However, it did not fully cover the needs of a one man patrol unit.

Any and all training that a person receives needs to be "adjusted" to the particular situation at hand. Repelling boarders is not the same as hunting bad guys outside of your dwelling. A person needs to get as much information as possible, and then pick that which most applies to his/her needs.

As always, just my 2 bits worth:mrgreen:


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## rex

This was a very interesting, and must say quite civilized, conversation. I've seen these go nuts before.

I think the pros and cons have been laid out, if you don't exactly know the situation to unfold you're behind the ball and must improvise as mentioned. 

Of all my shotguns I don't own anything shorter than a 24" (maybe it's a 26"), but even though our house is basically an open plan in the main living area, even an 18" would be cumbersome if you leave any of the bedrooms. I almost bought an M1Super90 years ago but I couldn't come off the money for something that would basically be a play gun. I have one ready to go if needed but hopefully I never will.

One thing I realized shooting run and gun shotgun combat matches years ago is better than the sightover with a handgun, is if you learn to hipshoot you can be fast and accurate out around 10yds. You help prevent telegraphing the muzzle but you also have much better leverage on the gun to retain it. It doesn't work for me on a pistol grip well at all but it works great on a conventional stock. On a static course of fire of just mowing down steel my buddy always won with his M1Super90 (Lord those things could cycle fast), but in the run and guns I beat him quite a bit with my early Wingmaster. This thing cycles almost as smooth as an old S&W 3000 but anything close I just hipshot as I booked on by down the lane. There's also no loss of balance if you rattle a few off quick, 5 fast rounds pushes me straight up and balancing with the left foot coming up for the backstep.

AAARRGHH, can't sleep and rambled this one out there, sorry guys.


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> Given a choice and enough advance warning, and if the environment dictated, I'd take a long gun over a handgun any day of the week.
> 
> But, the OP asked about home protection. That's what I was working off of. If one is very experienced and well-versed in handling a long gun in tight confines, then yes, it would be more than worthy.
> 
> Just one little comment on the FBI. I know that they are the supposed measure of LE in America. To some degree, I suppose they could be. But, it's the average street cop / deputy that is out every night that makes our society as safe as it is.
> 
> When the FBI goes into action, they have advance notice and have planned for whatever they are doing. They are always in force, well-prepared, and have top-notch gear. That is to say, that they don't patrol in one man cars, don't respond to domestic calls (some of the most dangerous to cops) and make felony car stops on a moment's notice. I could go on and on, but I hope that I've made my point.
> 
> They do what they do very well, but they have all the time, man-power, and equipment in the world, to do it.


Again a most astute and worthwhile post. Spot on correct.

Like you, in answer to denner's post just above, if given the option under the right set of circumstances, I would much prefer having a long gun over a handgun as my primary goto defensive arm. A prime example of this would be a major hurricane which knows out much of a city's operations. The one that devastated Hollywood, Florida (Andrew) in 1992 comes to mind. There were roving gangs looting and pillaging and attacking citizens. Many of the citizens armed themselves against these attacks and a number of criminal looters were shot. In these cases a good rifle (I'm thinking an AR15 or an AR10) or a shotgun would be a Godsend. I would still want a good and dependable handgun on my side to backup that long gun.

Anyway, excellent points there paratrooper.


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## SouthernBoy

rex said:


> This was a very interesting, and must say quite civilized, conversation. I've seen these go nuts before.


Yes it has been and yes, they have done just that on other websites. Don't see it as much on this site. I would suggest that this is a measure of the quality and character of most of the people on these forums.


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## Glock Doctor

pedro45 said:


> Folks, this has been a wonderful resource, I'm putting some of the suggestions right into action at MFS, etc. But I need to go the well once more:
> 
> Which is a great shotgun for home protection?? Without paying a 1000 bucks ... and what kind of shells for same purpose? My brother says have the first one be birdshot and the next ones mean business, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated, thanks


  To begin with I've, personally, been closely involved in the construction of two of our homes. I could (almost) say that I built them, myself; but, truth be told, I had plenty of help with systems like: plumbing, heating, and electrical. Which left me and one or two others to do the: masonry, framing, finish carpentry, sheetrock, painting, and (later on) the landscaping. Consequently, it would only be under the most dire of circumstances that I would be willing to use a shotgun inside my own home.

Sometimes I wonder, 'Why' all of these home-defense threads always focus on the weapon to be selected and used instead of, more correctly, upon the technique(s) of home protection? Anyone who anticipates the possibility of ever getting into a, 'hot' home-defense situation should have already practiced as many viable, 'what-if' scenarios as he's able to imagine throughout his home and around the home's property.

For example: Do you know the most advantageous, 'ambush points' around your own home? That would be those areas inside the home where an attacker is most vulnerable to receiving defensive fire? I'm talking about places like: hallways, doorways, stairwell landings, stairway midpoints, as well as at the very top of stairs. (The top of a stairway is one of my favorite interior ambush points because the very first thing you'll see coming at you isn't going to be the intruder's gun; instead it's going to be the top of his head!)

Personally, I have two internet gun forum pet peeves: (Well actually three, but ......) One is the pedantic and ridiculous, 'clip/magazine - magazine/clip' brouhaha; and another is about the presumed lethality of using birdshot in order to successfully defend your home without doing extensive additional damage to either the property or others.

*BIRDSHOT ISN'T GOING TO WORK!*

How do I know? Simple! I've already, 'been there and done that'. One of my close associates once took two rounds of birdshot at between 3 and 5 yards distance. Want to know what happened? He got hit squarely in the front right shoulder, upper chest, and lower neck with one round of #7 1/2 birdshot, and another round of #6 small game-shot. He didn't stop functioning; he continued to operate; he continued to move; and ultimately he saved his own life! The room was a mess; there was a lot of blood on the floor; there were shotgun pellet holes in the surrounding walls, and furniture; but he stayed alive, and was sitting up, talking, when the police and ambulance arrived to take him to the hospital.

Three or four operations later he made it; and, several years later, I ran into him shopping in town with his, then, new bride. I knew him, on and off, for about another ten years; and to the best of my knowledge he was never too bothered by the numerous pellets the doctors decided to leave in his body. I will add, however, that the scarring on his shoulder didn't look all that bad - Certainly not like right after this event happened. So, what is the moral of this gruesome tale? Don't attempt to use birdshot in order to defend your home! All you'll, probably, do is make someone very very mad at you!

One of the first rules of successful home-defense is NOT TO MOVE. I've had a little experience with this. (Well, actually, I've had a lot!) You're always better off if you force the other guy to come at you. I can't count the times I've read one of these threads about someone, 'sweeping' their home - flashing a tac light on and off, and here and there - looking for the source of the disturbance. Do whatever you want; but all I can tell you is, '_You're playing with your life!_' Among the people I used to play these games with we had an unequivocal saying, '_He who moves first, ...... loses!_'

What's really important?

(1) You will need to have a firearm immediately at hand. If it's not a revolver then I strongly suggest that YOU GIVE YOURSELF TIME TO WAKE UP AND GET ORIENTATED by keeping your weapon in C-3.

(2) You need to keep BOTH a cell phone, and a tactical flashlight with your home-defense gun. (Other sources will add even more items to this list; but, these are the essential, 'must haves'.)

(3) You've got to have a well thought-out home-defense plan - A plan that considers any and all means of escape that might be available to you. (In spite of any, 'stand your ground' or, 'your home is your castle' sort of rationale, it needs to be appreciated that the sooner you get your vulnerable butt out of danger, then, the better it's going to be for you!) There are plenty of good (and necessary-to-read) home and self-defense books that you can get on this subject. Start with the NRA Store Library.

Trust me on this: Barring civil riot and a complete breakdown in law and order your are NOT going to be trading a lot of shots. Home break-ins begin fast, and usually end in exactly the same way. I know of only two exceptions to this general rule; and, strictly speaking, neither involved a sudden home invasion.

One involved the murderous escapades of Dennis Rader, Wichita's infamous, 'BTK' killer. Rader liked to gain surreptitious entry to a momentarily unoccupied home and, then, hide in a bedroom closet for hours, waiting and watching, until his chosen victim was about to get into bed. (Argh!)

The other exception is Angel Maturino Reséndiz, 'The Railroad Killer'. A name given to Reséndiz because railroads were his preferred method of travel from town to town, and many of his murders occurred at properties within eyesight of a rail line. Reséndiz was an impulsive and indiscriminate killer. One of the methods he used was to quietly enter a home - often, but not always, late at night - locate an expedient weapon, (just about anything heavy or sharp that he found in the home) and almost immediately begin raping and killing.

Both of these homicidal maniacs were, 'the home invaders from Hell'; and, even if you sleep with a pistol underneath your pillow in the same way that I do - without a dog - you might still have very little warning and remain entirely vulnerable to an in-home attack! Consequently I'm a big fan of things like: driveway, window, and door alarms. (Some of these devices can be adapted for use in interior locations like hallways, too!)

My first choice for defending the family and warding off a home invasion would definitely be a pistol; but, if a shotgun were to be chosen, then, I'd select one of those shotguns already suggested by GCBHM. However - unless my arthritis gets a whole lot worse than it is right now - I, personally, wouldn't be quick to grab a 5.56mm tactical carbine out of the safe in order to confront a typical home-defense problem. (By the way, what's the, 'BHM' part of GCBHM stand for? Backwoods Home Magazine!)

Remember, it's unlikely that you're going to be trading a lot of shots back and forth. Most likely an event like this will begin and end very quickly. It will, also, tend to occur at and inside 7 1/2 to 10 yards. Hand grenades, a tac carbine with a 30 round clip, or a riot shotgun really aren't going to be needed; and, especially not, if a homeowner knows what he's doing with a gun in his hands. ('Knowing what you're doing', and being possessed of seasoned, well developed instincts is a big part of successful home-defense! Why? Because once it starts you're going to be operating on: pure instinct, proprioceptive reflex, and adrenaline.)

Use a, 'safe room'. Stay put for as long as the room remains secure, and don't go out looking for the threat! Let the intruder confront you rather than you attempting to confront the threat. Get on your cell phone (not your landline); and - ONE TIME ONLY - shout out your intention to defend yourself with deadly force if needs be. If, 'push comes to shove' you'll need to clearly mark your target with a tac light before you make that final decision to open fire.

In a situation like this I would strongly prefer not to mark my own target(s). My wife will do it for me! (Please don't think that I'm endangering my wife by using her as a decoy. I assure you that no alien object she lights up is going to, 'remain flexible' for long enough to do her any harm.)

Personally I'm NOT a big believer in, 'blabber-mouthing' as a lethal threat closes in on you. Be aware that the bad guy might, also, have a gun; and the more you talk the easier it's going to be for him to locate you and accurately direct his fire. The often recommended self-defense monologue of, '_Stop!_' '_Stop!_' '_I have a gun; and I'm ready to use it!_' '_Go away!_' '_Go away, now!_' is much too verbose, and can (Ready?) EASILY GET YOU EXPEDITIOUSLY MURDERED!

(Think of it as SEAL Team Six spread out around your living room in the dark. Are you going to attempt to reason with these fellows? Noooo, _......_ you are not! They, however, for their part will, most assuredly, attempt to open a dialogue with you! Do you Understand!)

Yes, I've been trained and am expected to teach others like this; but, quite frankly, this sort of naïve home-defense behavior, 'sticks in my craw'. Twice in my long life I've had to experience and endure a sudden home invasion. On neither occasion would any such language have made the situation more survivable for either me or my family. What worked the first time was two superlatively well-trained (guardian) Pit Bulldogs. What worked the second time was a G-21 in my pocket, along with a complete willingness on my part to die fighting, right then and there. (No internet B.S. What I've just told you is the absolute unvarnished truth!)

No shotgun, no tac carbine, or, 'high capacity' semiautomatic pistol - in and of itself - is going to be enough to see you safely through. You've got to plan for the event; you've got to be ready, and have a firearm at-the-ready. Having a gun is certainly necessary; but even more important is, (How shall I say this?) '_Walking with God_'.

I honestly believe that everyone has a, 'small still voice' living inside his head. The trick is to learn how to encourage that, 'small still voice' to speak to you, as well as to be entirely willing to listen when it does. In my own life experience it's this ability that has proven to be far more important than whatever gun I had in hand; or, for that matter, whether or not I even had a gun in hand to begin with. (Psalms 23:4, Proverbs 21:31, and Jeremiah 10:23)

What am I using right now, today, to defend myself at home? A 357 Magnum, 3 inch barreled, Ruger SP-101 which I keep under my pillow at night with an extra 6 rounds kept in a Bianchi Speed Strip.*** Is it enough gun? Is this enough ammo? As I said, barring civil strife, I already know that it is.

Answer this question: 'What is even more important than the gun you decide to defend yourself and your home with?' Well, whatever firearm you use, you need to be thoroughly practiced with, and (almost instinctively) know how to use it well.

By the way: When it comes to racking a shotgun slide in order to frighten someone off? *DO NOT DO IT*! Try that with someone who's armed AND knows what he's doing with a gun in his hands; and, ...... he'll, more than likely, promptly shoot you dead!

*** As might be expected the muzzle is always pointed in a safe direction.


----------



## pedro45

wow, that was a slew of great answers mixed in with what I imagine are old internecine squabbles, but now that I've decided on an 18.5 inch barrel Mossberg 500 with pistol grip, what is really confusing is WHERE to find a good price online. I google it and these places pop up, like Dicks Sporting, etc. but they never give specifics. Any suggestions on WHERE to go to buy one of these; REMEMBER: Talkin MASSACHUSETTS here (I know, I' know, I'm finding out what a drag it is here for gun owners). Thanks for any advice on the where to get a good deal question..


----------



## rex

Paratrooper, Southern Boy and Glock Doctor (I'm sure I'm not including everyone) have excellent posts on this subject. 

In my sleep deprived rambling earlier I meant to mention the birdshot deal but that's been covered. The only way I see that working is if you shove the muzzle in his mouth and blast his palate into his head or you happen to pop both his eyeballs so he can't see you and the pain and shock stop him. The first one is called assassination unless there are serious extenuating circumstances that I don't see, and the latter is pure dumb luck and you won't die no matter what because your guardian angle is the best around. Birdshot may be effective on a wannabe punk but on a real dirtbag you're just going to piss him off. Double ought, maybe #4 and a slug are all I'll be loaded with. Damn I wish I bought a Benelli, I'm getting older and just can't work that pump like I used to.

I hope this continues, and it has a lot of great info like the run and gun post in the Sig forum recently that is right up the tactical forum's alley. Hopefully NewB's searching around run into this info.


----------



## paratrooper

lefty60 said:


> Well said paratrooper. In times past I have received some fine firearms training from FBI instructors. However, it did not fully cover the needs of a one man patrol unit.
> 
> Any and all training that a person receives needs to be "adjusted" to the particular situation at hand. Repelling boarders is not the same as hunting bad guys outside of your dwelling. A person needs to get as much information as possible, and then pick that which most applies to his/her needs.
> 
> As always, just my 2 bits worth:mrgreen:


The most recent FBI training I received was back in 2005. It was a three-day course in officer survival. It consisted of one full day on the shooting range and two days of mock-up building encounters, to incl. vehicle stops and approaches.

It was good training, but a bit too basic. I (we) were expecting something much more advanced and technical. Several times, we brought up issues that could improve on what we were doing at the time, and the instructors agreed.

Anyways, like the ole saying........any training is good training, be it remedial or not. We did have several good BS sessions, trading stories and such.

Several years ago, I attended a "Police Officer Street Survival Course" in Las Vegas. It was a three-day course put on by Caliber Press. It drew LE from all over the US. It was a restricted seminar, and put out some very good information. The media wasn't even allowed to attend. I met some really good people and am still friends with many today.


----------



## GCBHM

pedro45 said:


> wow, that was a slew of great answers mixed in with what I imagine are old internecine squabbles, but now that I've decided on an 18.5 inch barrel Mossberg 500 with pistol grip, what is really confusing is WHERE to find a good price online. I google it and these places pop up, like Dicks Sporting, etc. but they never give specifics. Any suggestions on WHERE to go to buy one of these; REMEMBER: Talkin MASSACHUSETTS here (I know, I' know, I'm finding out what a drag it is here for gun owners). Thanks for any advice on the where to get a good deal question..


Excellent, excellent choice!!! There are a number of good on-line places to buy. Just google and look for the best price. There are places that will run specials, etc., so that is my recommendation. There are some good places here in Birmingham, AL, like Birmingham Pistol Wholesale (I know this guy personally), Marks Outdoors, Hoover Tactical. There is also places like Cabela's, BassPro, etc., but they are commercial dealers.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Glock Doctor said:


> To begin with I've, personally, been closely involved in the construction of two of our homes. I could (almost) say that I built them, myself; but, truth be told, I had plenty of help with systems like: plumbing, heating, and electrical. Which left me and one or two others to do the: masonry, framing, finish carpentry, sheetrock, painting, and (later on) the landscaping. Consequently, it would only be under the most dire of circumstances that I would be willing to use a shotgun inside my own home.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder, 'Why' all of these home-defense threads always focus on the weapon to be selected and used instead of, more correctly, upon the technique(s) of home protection? Anyone who anticipates the possibility of ever getting into a, 'hot' home-defense situation should have already practiced as many viable, 'what-if' scenarios as he's able to imagine throughout his home and around the home's property.
> 
> For example: Do you know the most advantageous, 'ambush points' around your own home? That would be those areas inside the home where an attacker is most vulnerable to receiving defensive fire? I'm talking about places like: hallways, doorways, stairwell landings, stairway midpoints, as well as at the very top of stairs. (The top of a stairway is one of my favorite interior ambush points because the very first thing you'll see coming at you isn't going to be the intruder's gun; instead it's going to be the top of his head!)
> 
> Personally, I have two internet gun forum pet peeves: (Well actually three, but ......) One is the pedantic and ridiculous, 'clip/magazine - magazine/clip' brouhaha; and another is about the presumed lethality of using birdshot in order to successfully defend your home without doing extensive additional damage to either the property or others.
> 
> *BIRDSHOT ISN'T GOING TO WORK!*
> 
> How do I know? Simple! I've already, 'been there and done that'. One of my close associates once took two rounds of birdshot at between 3 and 5 yards distance. Want to know what happened? He got hit squarely in the front right shoulder, upper chest, and lower neck with one round of #7 1/2 birdshot, and another round of #6 small game-shot. He didn't stop functioning; he continued to operate; he continued to move; and ultimately he saved his own life! The room was a mess; there was a lot of blood on the floor; there were shotgun pellet holes in the surrounding walls, and furniture; but he stayed alive, and was sitting up, talking, when the police and ambulance arrived to take him to the hospital.
> 
> Three or four operations later he made it; and, several years later, I ran into him shopping in town with his, then, new bride. I knew him, on and off, for about another ten years; and to the best of my knowledge he was never too bothered by the numerous pellets the doctors decided to leave in his body. I will add, however, that the scarring on his shoulder didn't look all that bad - Certainly not like right after this event happened. So, what is the moral of this gruesome tale? Don't attempt to use birdshot in order to defend your home! All you'll, probably, do is make someone very very mad at you!
> 
> One of the first rules of successful home-defense is NOT TO MOVE. I've had a little experience with this. (Well, actually, I've had a lot!) You're always better off if you force the other guy to come at you. I can't count the times I've read one of these threads about someone, 'sweeping' their home - flashing a tac light on and off, and here and there - looking for the source of the disturbance. Do whatever you want; but all I can tell you is, '_You're playing with your life!_' Among the people I used to play these games with we had an unequivocal saying, '_He who moves first, ...... loses!_'
> 
> What's really important?
> 
> (1) You will need to have a firearm immediately at hand. If it's not a revolver then I strongly suggest that YOU GIVE YOURSELF TIME TO WAKE UP AND GET ORIENTATED by keeping your weapon in C-3.
> 
> (2) You need to keep BOTH a cell phone, and a tactical flashlight with your home-defense gun. (Other sources will add even more items to this list; but, these are the essential, 'must haves'.)
> 
> (3) You've got to have a well thought-out home-defense plan - A plan that considers any and all means of escape that might be available to you. (In spite of any, 'stand your ground' or, 'your home is your castle' sort of rationale, it needs to be appreciated that the sooner you get your vulnerable butt out of danger, then, the better it's going to be for you!) There are plenty of good (and necessary-to-read) home and self-defense books that you can get on this subject. Start with the NRA Store Library.
> 
> Trust me on this: Barring civil riot and a complete breakdown in law and order your are NOT going to be trading a lot of shots. Home break-ins begin fast, and usually end in exactly the same way. I know of only two exceptions to this general rule; and, strictly speaking, neither involved a sudden home invasion.
> 
> One involved the murderous escapades of Dennis Rader, Wichita's infamous, 'BTK' killer. Rader liked to gain surreptitious entry to a momentarily unoccupied home and, then, hide in a bedroom closet for hours, waiting and watching, until his chosen victim was about to get into bed. (Argh!)
> 
> The other exception is Angel Maturino Reséndiz, 'The Railroad Killer'. A name given to Reséndiz because railroads were his preferred method of travel from town to town, and many of his murders occurred at properties within eyesight of a rail line. Reséndiz was an impulsive and indiscriminate killer. One of the methods he used was to quietly enter a home - often, but not always, late at night - locate an expedient weapon, (just about anything heavy or sharp that he found in the home) and almost immediately begin raping and killing.
> 
> Both of these homicidal maniacs were, 'the home invaders from Hell'; and, even if you sleep with a pistol underneath your pillow in the same way that I do - without a dog - you might still have very little warning and remain entirely vulnerable to an in-home attack! Consequently I'm a big fan of things like: driveway, window, and door alarms. (Some of these devices can be adapted for use in interior locations like hallways, too!)
> 
> My first choice for defending the family and warding off a home invasion would definitely be a pistol; but, if a shotgun were to be chosen, then, I'd select one of those shotguns already suggested by GCBHM. However - unless my arthritis gets a whole lot worse than it is right now - I, personally, wouldn't be quick to grab a 5.56mm tactical carbine out of the safe in order to confront a typical home-defense problem. (By the way, what's the, 'BHM' part of GCBHM stand for? Backwoods Home Magazine!)
> 
> Remember, it's unlikely that you're going to be trading a lot of shots back and forth. Most likely an event like this will begin and end very quickly. It will, also, tend to occur at and inside 7 1/2 to 10 yards. Hand grenades, a tac carbine with a 30 round clip, or a riot shotgun really aren't going to be needed; and, especially not, if a homeowner knows what he's doing with a gun in his hands. ('Knowing what you're doing', and being possessed of seasoned, well developed instincts is a big part of successful home-defense! Why? Because once it starts you're going to be operating on: pure instinct, proprioceptive reflex, and adrenaline.)
> 
> Use a, 'safe room'. Stay put for as long as the room remains secure, and don't go out looking for the threat! Let the intruder confront you rather than you attempting to confront the threat. Get on your cell phone (not your landline); and - ONE TIME ONLY - shout out your intention to defend yourself with deadly force if needs be. If, 'push comes to shove' you'll need to clearly mark your target with a tac light before you make that final decision to open fire.
> 
> In a situation like this I would strongly prefer not to mark my own target(s). My wife will do it for me! (Please don't think that I'm endangering my wife by using her as a decoy. I assure you that no alien object she lights up is going to, 'remain flexible' for long enough to do her any harm.)
> 
> Personally I'm NOT a big believer in, 'blabber-mouthing' as a lethal threat closes in on you. Be aware that the bad guy might, also, have a gun; and the more you talk the easier it's going to be for him to locate you and accurately direct his fire. The often recommended self-defense monologue of, '_Stop!_' '_Stop!_' '_I have a gun; and I'm ready to use it!_' '_Go away!_' '_Go away, now!_' is much too verbose, and can (Ready?) EASILY GET YOU EXPEDITIOUSLY MURDERED!
> 
> (Think of it as SEAL Team Six spread out around your living room in the dark. Are you going to attempt to reason with these fellows? Noooo, _......_ you are not! They, however, for their part will, most assuredly, attempt to open a dialogue with you! Do you Understand!)
> 
> Yes, I've been trained and am expected to teach others like this; but, quite frankly, this sort of naïve home-defense behavior, 'sticks in my craw'. Twice in my long life I've had to experience and endure a sudden home invasion. On neither occasion would any such language have made the situation more survivable for either me or my family. What worked the first time was two superlatively well-trained (guardian) Pit Bulldogs. What worked the second time was a G-21 in my pocket, along with a complete willingness on my part to die fighting, right then and there. (No internet B.S. What I've just told you is the absolute unvarnished truth!)
> 
> No shotgun, no tac carbine, or, 'high capacity' semiautomatic pistol - in and of itself - is going to be enough to see you safely through. You've got to plan for the event; you've got to be ready, and have a firearm at-the-ready. Having a gun is certainly necessary; but even more important is, (How shall I say this?) '_Walking with God_'.
> 
> I honestly believe that everyone has a, 'small still voice' living inside his head. The trick is to learn how to encourage that, 'small still voice' to speak to you, as well as to be entirely willing to listen when it does. In my own life experience it's this ability that has proven to be far more important than whatever gun I had in hand; or, for that matter, whether or not I even had a gun in hand to begin with. (Psalms 23:4, Proverbs 21:31, and Jeremiah 10:23)
> 
> What am I using right now, today, to defend myself at home? A 357 Magnum, 3 inch barreled, Ruger SP-101 which I keep under my pillow at night with an extra 6 rounds kept in a Bianchi Speed Strip.*** Is it enough gun? Is this enough ammo? As I said, barring civil strife, I already know that it is.
> 
> Answer this question: 'What is even more important than the gun you decide to defend yourself and your home with?' Well, whatever firearm you use, you need to be thoroughly practiced with, and (almost instinctively) know how to use it well.
> 
> By the way: When it comes to racking a shotgun slide in order to frighten someone off? *DO NOT DO IT*! Try that with someone who's armed AND knows what he's doing with a gun in his hands; and, ...... he'll, more than likely, promptly shoot you dead!
> 
> *** As might be expected the muzzle is always pointed in a safe direction.


I find agreement in just about everything you've written here. Well done. Having a plan that has some flexibility, a firearm with which you are well trained an familiar, and a spot selected where you can command the situation as best as you can lays the ground work for a good home defense program. You mentioned the top of the stairs. The shape of my foyer and the stairs to the second floor is such that a perp will climb the second set of stairs from the landing (landing forces a 90 degree left turn) to put his back to my position.

Rather than stand up at the corner of my bedroom door, I lay down on the floor and look out into the upper hallway and the stairway. If someone rushes up those stairs and fires a gun, he is most likely to fire at an area between waist high and upper chest. With me on the floor, I shoot up at him. But again, there is always a measure of flexibility in all of this to account for varying situations.


----------



## SouthernBoy

pedro45 said:


> wow, that was a slew of great answers mixed in with what I imagine are old internecine squabbles, but now that I've decided on an 18.5 inch barrel Mossberg 500 with pistol grip, what is really confusing is WHERE to find a good price online. I google it and these places pop up, like Dicks Sporting, etc. but they never give specifics. Any suggestions on WHERE to go to buy one of these; REMEMBER: Talkin MASSACHUSETTS here (I know, I' know, I'm finding out what a drag it is here for gun owners). Thanks for any advice on the where to get a good deal question..


Go to Discount Guns for Sale - Buds Gun Shop. The Mossberg 500 runs in the higher $300 range.


----------



## denner

paratrooper said:


> Just one little comment on the FBI. I know that they are the supposed measure of LE in America. To some degree, I suppose they could be. But, it's the average street cop / deputy that is out every night that makes our society as safe as it is.
> 
> When the FBI goes into action, they have advance notice and have planned for whatever they are doing. They are always in force, well-prepared, and have top-notch gear. That is to say, that they don't patrol in one man cars, don't respond to domestic calls (some of the most dangerous to cops) and make felony car stops on a moment's notice. I could go on and on, but I hope that I've made my point.
> 
> They do what they do very well, but they have all the time, man-power, and equipment in the world, to do it.


To be a little more clear, I was not referring to the FBI's sole personnel, tactics, equipment, role of duty and training. I was referring to a report done by the FBI concerning all law enforcement in the U.S., mainly; "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com

Reported in 1989, but very relevant then as today. Likewise, what we have today is the FBI's protocol, "Holy Grail" for ballistic testing, in which I believe all if not most law enforcement agencies and civilians take notice across the board. I agree, the FBI has limitless resources and one of those areas is studying the effectiveness of handguns in Leo shootings across the U.S. and the data. Page 2 and 3 are most relevant on our point of topic and where I find my resource. Btw, I suppose the FBI has changed tactic, but some of what you're saying didn't apply in Miami in 1986. Perhaps the greatest lesson learned in that tragic event was: " You Don't Solely Take A Handgun Into A Shouldered Weapon Fight".


----------



## lefty60

The FBI shoot out in Miami is one of several "incidents" that caused some serious changes in Law Enforcement "thinking and training". The good old days were suddenly gone! I left Law Enforcement about 1987-88, (health issues) and patrol as well as training procedures were changing fast.

Heck! small departments here in Oregon had old surplus rifles (M1 carbines, maybe a Tommy gun, 30-30 lever guns, ect.). Here we were just stating to change over to autoloading pistols.

Point is there is much more, much better information, training, and gear to be had now. The world is more dangerous now, but we have much better resources to help protect our selves.

Be informed, get training, stay safe.


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## denner

Home Defense: Interior wall penetration test with 12 gauge shotgun


----------



## Glock Doctor

SouthernBoy said:


> ...... Rather than stand up at the corner of my bedroom door, I lay down on the floor and look out into the upper hallway and the stairway. If someone rushes up those stairs and fires a gun, he is most likely to fire at an area between waist high and upper chest. With me on the floor, I shoot up at him. But again, there is always a measure of flexibility in all of this to account for varying situations.


PRICELESS! :mrgreen:

My favorite hiding places are (1) lying down on the floor in the vicinity of the top of the stairs, or (2) at the end of a hallway. If you're able to get most of your body into a room, and out of the line-of-fire, so much the better.

Inside, say, a bedroom I prefer to locate myself directly opposite the doorway. I may, or may not stand up. The person with the light (my wife) remains at a 90 degree angle to the door. (So that an intruder would have to pivot in order to aim at her.)

Admittedly these are risky procedures. As Jerry Usher once said, '_In a gunfight most bullets tend to fly low._' So, your very first shots are going to have to count.


----------



## SouthernBoy

Glock Doctor said:


> PRICELESS! :mrgreen:
> 
> My favorite hiding places are (1) lying down on the floor in the vicinity of the top of the stairs, or (2) at the end of a hallway. *If you're able to get most of your body into a room, and out of the line-of-fire, so much the better. *
> 
> Inside, say, a bedroom I prefer to locate myself directly opposite the doorway. I may, or may not stand up. The person with the light (my wife) remains at a 90 degree angle to the door. (So that an intruder would have to pivot in order to aim at her.)
> 
> Admittedly these are risky procedures. As Jerry Usher once said, '_In a gunfight most bullets tend to fly low._' So, your very first shots are going to have to count.


This is exactly the position I take. Most of my body remains spayed in the master bedroom and only a small part is in the doorway. The layout of the stairs and upper hallway is such that I would be hard to see in that position by someone coming up the stairs.

Also you had mentioned to shout at the intruder just once because continuing to do this will aid in giving your position away. This is also what I do. Had an opportunity to exercise our plan in August 2009. We did as we had expected and fortunately, all came out well (alarm went off due to a very close lightning strike). I'm of the mind that the only time you may entertain going after a perp is if a family member is in dire danger. Since there is only my wife and I in the home, that is not a consideration so we stay put and let the perp either exit the premises or come to us.


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## Younguy

Just came accross a Mossberg 535 @ Walmart with 28" for . . . . . $139 Was looking for a 500 so I could put an 18" barrel on it and use it for HD with 00 in it. 

Now the question is can I attach a Mossberg 500 18 incher to the 535? Cabellas doesnt list anything for the 535 less than 22 inches and that it @ $235 each, $100 more than the gun. Sportsmans warehouse has a 500 barrel on the rack for $99 but will it fit? Anybody have experience with this? Alternate question is the legality of sawing off a barrel myself, if I found a used one for the 535? 

Or should I just keep it for shooting Clays at the range and follow through on my original search for the short 500 for HD.


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## miketx60

Here's mine, a Winchester 1300 that I "made over". If you do this, do yourself a favor and buy the tool for the mag nut.










I Put a magazine extension on it that gives an 8 round capacity and then the light and the stock set, with the shell holder attached to the stock. It reduced the length of pull to make it a more easily point-able. To me anyway....

Loaded with various buckshot


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## packrat

H&R 870 clone with maybe $300 into it.

Traded that one off for a .40 pistol. Then i picked up an A5 as i wanted an auto loader but i just 
couldn't cut it up so i traded it for a Ruger P95.

One note the $200 econo shotguns are hit and miss on reliability if you read up on them there 
are some feeding issues. The H&R above had alot of grease in the tube that needed to be cleaned out.


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## denner

Younguy said:


> Just came accross a Mossberg 535 @ Walmart with 28" for . . . . . $139 Was looking for a 500 so I could put an 18" barrel on it and use it for HD with 00 in it.
> 
> Now the question is can I attach a Mossberg 500 18 incher to the 535? Cabellas doesnt list anything for the 535 less than 22 inches and that it @ $235 each, $100 more than the gun. Sportsmans warehouse has a 500 barrel on the rack for $99 but will it fit? Anybody have experience with this? Alternate question is the legality of sawing off a barrel myself, if I found a used one for the 535?
> 
> Or should I just keep it for shooting Clays at the range and follow through on my original search for the short 500 for HD.


If you're not sure I'd give Mossberg a ring. I was in the same dilemma about my SXP, called Winchester/Browning and got the answer and barrel I was looking for.

Perhaps this may be your ticket if not discontinued:The Mossberg part number for the 18.5" 835 barrel is #90823. However, Mossberg is the one to call. I do believe the 500 barrel will fit on the 835, however, only chambered in 3 inch.


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## Younguy

denner said:


> If you're not sure I'd give Mossberg a ring. I was in the same dilemma about my SXP, called Winchester/Browning and got the answer and barrel I was looking for.
> 
> Perhaps this may be your ticket if not discontinued:The Mossberg part number for the 18.5" 835 barrel is #90823. However, Mossberg is the one to call. I do believe the 500 barrel will fit on the 835, however, only chambered in 3 inch.


Thanks for the responses. I did call Mossberg and they said no barrel will fit on a 535 except a 535 barrel. Not sure if thats because of the 3.5 inch chamber on 535 and the 3 inch on the 500. That 835 part number might not fit either, according to them, though it sounds like it has the same chamber size. Found a 535 used on Ebay, 22 inch rifled slug barrel which goes back to my question about sawing it off myself. I have a hack saw but knowing me I would want it to look good, polished, blued and factory new. Would doing it myself be legal, illegal or just frowned upon. This would then have no front site, but my hallway is pretty short and I wont really be looking at the BG in my flashlight beam saying "Pull" now will I? :smt1099


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## CW

Younguy said:


> ......... Found a 535 used on Ebay, 22 inch rifled slug barrel which goes back to my question about sawing it off myself. I have a hack saw .....


Do yourself a favor and protect your right to ownership. NO SAWED-OFFS.

If you want to purchase an SBR or Other, or have a reliable gunshop do a legal conversion.... pay the price and do the forms.

BUT you may be able to convert a shot barrel to a slug gun barrel by having proper sights added to a shortened barrel. Ask a gunsmith if this is possible IF you can find no other barrel option.

I suspect once you add up $$$s, it will be more cost effective to buy something more suitable.


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## VAMarine

As long as the barrel is the legal (non NFA) length after cutting it you can do it yourself no harm / no foul as far as legality goes. But I would have it done professionally.


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## desertman

VAMarine said:


> As long as the barrel is the legal (non NFA) length after cutting it you can do it yourself no harm / no foul as far as legality goes. But I would have it done professionally.


Just make sure it's at least 1/4 inch more than the legal length which is 18 inches. This will allow for any screw ups or crooked cuts. The overall length of the shotgun can be no shorter than 24 inches. You can wrap several layers of masking tape around the barrel to use as a guide for the hacksaw blade, in order to achieve a square cut. Cut a little at a time making a shallow groove all the way around the barrel instead of trying to saw straight through. This will assure that you get a straight and even cut. The end of the barrel can be "dressed" by wrapping different grits of sandpaper or emory cloth wrapped tightly around a flat object such as a ruler and sanding or filling out the cut marks. Start with 220 to 600 grit or emory cloth. You might want to secure the barrel in a vise or by some other means. A flat file can also be used followed by sandpaper. The next step is to chamfer the inside of the barrel. Using a rounded "object" that is slightly larger than the barrel diameter such as a cut down broom handle if it's a 12 gauge. Place the sandpaper at the end of the "object" secure the sandpaper to that "object" and twist the "object" several times inside the gun barrel. Removing all the burrs. Again start with 220 to 600 grit. Then remove the sharp edges on the outside of the barrel by using the same grit sandpaper folded around a flat object and going around the barrel. I do not like to use files as they can remove too much metal at one time leaving flat spots on the end of the barrel. I also find that folding the sandpaper several times and holding it between your fingers while going around the barrel works best for this. The last step is to clean the barrel. If done carefully the barrel will not have to be re-blued unless you want the end to be blued in which case you can use a cold blue compound that is commercially available. A professional looking job can be done by just about anyone who is reasonably skilled with hand tools. It should take about an hour or so.


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## RK3369

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> Missing the target is not the issue, it's what happens when the bullets pass thru the target at relatively close range, penetrate several walls and hit someone or something that was not intended.


agreed. With a shotgun, anything larger than buckshot is going to go through walls, maybe several walls. You'd be surprised how much penetration results from hitting a target with a 12ga deer slug. Way more than you need unless you've got guys standing 6 deep.


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## desertman

RK3369 said:


> agreed. With a shotgun, anything larger than buckshot is going to go through walls, maybe several walls. You'd be surprised how much penetration results from hitting a target with a 12ga deer slug. Way more than you need unless you've got guys standing 6 deep.


I once took a 12 gauge double barreled shotgun loaded with 000 buckshot. Fired both barrels at the same time through the hood of an abandoned car at about 6 feet away. It blew a hole through the hood so large that you could stick your freakin' head through it. I doubt that sheetrock would pose any obstacle. Generally speaking I do not keep a long gun for home defense either rifle or shotgun. I prefer a handgun. But nevertheless If I were to choose a shotgun it would have to be a 12 gauge loaded with #4 shot preferably 3' inch shells. At close range in the torso it would give an intruder one hell of a "tummy" ache. A face full of it even better. Forget about slugs in a home or apartment environment. Of course it all depends on what gauge shotgun an individual has. How 'bout a sawed off 10 gauge?


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## Spike12

Sorry if this is redundant....

In the early posts there was a list of shotguns, Mossberg was on there. That's my choice and the military uses them - double action bars. $500 will put you in good shape. Don't buy a duck gun, buy a defense gun. I don't like the AR style stock. Make it hold as much ammo as possible. I use milsurp combat ammo. Screw the penitration issue. If me or my family's life is on the line, I'll worry about the other 'maybe/might/worry/not for certain' stuff later'. Keep the barrel legally short - harder to grab. Get one with a penitrator jagged edge on the muzzle. All else fails, jab the shit out of them. Screw all the fancy sight stuff. Add a light. It's what's beside my bed.

Better choice: M4 5.56 is the least penitration round out there. In tests I've seen it upsets after the first piece of sheet rock and rarely makes past the next. Just like in combat. For that reason it has become the fav of home defense. _Down side: Training and expense. If you expect your spouse to use it take that into consideration. _ That alone is good reason to reconsider the shotgun.

Handgun? Not as effective as you might think but better than a sharp stick to the eye.

Most effective tool of all: PRACTICE
'


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## Younguy

desertman said:


> Just make sure it's at least 1/4 inch more than the legal length which is 18 inches. This will allow for any screw ups or crooked cuts. The overall length of the shotgun can be no shorter than 24 inches. You can wrap several layers of masking tape around the barrel to use as a guide for the hacksaw blade, in order to achieve a square cut. Cut a little at a time making a shallow groove all the way around the barrel instead of trying to saw straight through. This will assure that you get a straight and even cut. The end of the barrel can be "dressed" by wrapping different grits of sandpaper or emory cloth wrapped tightly around a flat object such as a ruler and sanding or filling out the cut marks. Start with 220 to 600 grit or emory cloth. You might want to secure the barrel in a vise or by some other means. A flat file can also be used followed by sandpaper. The next step is to chamfer the inside of the barrel. Using a rounded "object" that is slightly larger than the barrel diameter such as a cut down broom handle if it's a 12 gauge. Place the sandpaper at the end of the "object" secure the sandpaper to that "object" and twist the "object" several times inside the gun barrel. Removing all the burrs. Again start with 220 to 600 grit. Then remove the sharp edges on the outside of the barrel by using the same grit sandpaper folded around a flat object and going around the barrel. I do not like to use files as they can remove too much metal at one time leaving flat spots on the end of the barrel. I also find that folding the sandpaper several times and holding it between your fingers while going around the barrel works best for this. The last step is to clean the barrel. If done carefully the barrel will not have to be re-blued unless you want the end to be blued in which case you can use a cold blue compound that is commercially available. A professional looking job can be done by just about anyone who is reasonably skilled with hand tools. It should take about an hour or so.


For sure I will use a dowel down the barrel to accurately determine 18.5 inches, no less than that, and total length of atleast 24 inches, maybe 25.  Now this might sound like a stupid question but which would do better, a smooth bore with a vent rib or a barrel designed for slugs with rifling and no rib? The rib would be an obstacle for a clean cut, but Im wondering if the rifling would hinder the 0 buckshot or #4 or whichever. Or would introducing a spin might cause the pattern to open up more in less distance?


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## WCDUB

berettatoter said:


> Well, here is mine:
> 
> It is an H&R 1871 (an 870 clone). I paid 200 dollars for it, and it functions great. It does kick like a mule though. It takes Remington 870 after-market parts, except for the barrel. I have ran about 100 rounds through it so far, from birdshot to buckshot, without a hitch. I usually keep it ready with 00 buck.


This is what I have,loaded with 00 buck,backed by a glock 30,.45.I'd like to also have an AK-47,but
I'm GTG as is. I second your remarks on the H&R-great price,function,and extremely well-built,but I don't think its recoil is especially pernicious.I have approximately 1364 rds through mine,
both buck and bird.I love it!


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## CW

Not to say its the best, just that it meets the average person's primary criteria:

I have always recommended slug guns for home defense: cost + application. 
#2 or larger shot if you are inclined but with slugs as primary round. Rem 870s in 12 or 20 depending on shooter.

Perhaps the primary advantage of a handgun is you can hold a flashlight out with one hand instead of giving the perp a center of target to aim at.


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## Jeb Stuart

I have my Mossberg Cruiser in 20ga. Easy to carry through house and contrary to internet you can point this shotgun and not fly back into your face. 

And here is the Poor mans special that I love. A Beretta MDL 1200 with synthetic stock semi auto. Has few operating parts, easy to clean and very light weight. I only use BUCKSHOT in both guns.
The Beretta 1200 is the field model of 1200 FP which was used by both military and Police. I had my gunsmith cut the barrel down to 20".


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## Goldwing

I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle 12 gauge with a mag extension, sling, and a work light mounted on a rail on the mag tube. 
For those unfamiliar with the SBE, it is not a gas operated semi-auto. It is inertia operated with a buffer spring in the stock. This makes it about as reliable as can be. It will cycle light trap loads as well as it does 3.5" goose loads.
I am currently shopping for a barrel that is considerably shorter, but they are hard to find a used one that won't break the bank.


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## Jeb Stuart

Goldwing said:


> I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle 12 gauge with a mag extension, sling, and a work light mounted on a rail on the mag tube.
> For those unfamiliar with the SBE, it is not a gas operated semi-auto. It is inertia operated with a buffer spring in the stock. This makes it about as reliable as can be. It will cycle light trap loads as well as it does 3.5" goose loads.
> I am currently shopping for a barrel that is considerably shorter, but they are hard to find a used one that won't break the bank.


Your Benilli and my Beretta share a lot of similarities. And both have few parts and the inertial system is very reliable and so easy to clean. I can understand why you want a new barre as opposed to cutting the barrel. the Chokes. The gun smith told me if I wanted mine choked, it could do it later. I paid 80.00 t0 have the barrel cut and the Bead sight drilled. I placed a Fiber optic sight and a extened bolt release.


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## pic

Jeb Stuart said:


> Your Benilli and my Beretta share a lot of similarities. And both have few parts and the inertial system is very reliable and so easy to clean. I can understand why you want a new barre as opposed to cutting the barrel. the Chokes. The gun smith told me if I wanted mine choked, it could do it later. I paid 80.00 t0 have the barrel cut and the Bead sight drilled. I placed a Fiber optic sight and a extened bolt release.


Nope , not the reason. Lol, maybe
My educated observational guess is "GoldWing" trap shoots, hunts. Wants to keep the long barrel
Looking for a defensive size barrel when he's not sport shooting.


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## pic

I'm GOLDWINGs secretary today, I was just looking at his notes here on the desk. 
Hope he doesn't get pissed off at me for posting.


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## Goldwing

pic said:


> I'm GOLDWINGs secretary today, I was just looking at his notes here on the desk.
> Hope he doesn't get pissed off at me for posting.


Not an issue, Pic. Your assessment was spot on. I have a full set of Benelli choke tubes for this old girl and intend to use them. My gun show friend is on the lookout for a crusty barrel that I can get at a reasonable price.
BTW, this SBE will move nine ounces of lead in the blink of an eye.


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## Jeb Stuart

I must be confused. I said the reason was because his barrel has chokes. I may not have cut mine down if it were drilled for chokes. That said, I also shot a *Black Aces* a few weekend's and was really pleased. And very similiar to the Beretta and Benilli. 18 1/2 in semi at a great prices. 










Black Aces Tactical Pro Series X Semi-Automatic Shotgun 12GA - Tactical Shooters Kit - BATPSX


Black Aces Tactical BATPSX: This phenomenal Black Aces Tactical Pro Series X is the latest firearm from the company and includes everything you have ever wanted for your tactical shotgun all in one convenient package! This Tactical Shooters Kit consists of an 18.5" as well as a 24" barrel that...




www.classicfirearms.com


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## Goldwing

Jeb Stuart said:


> I may not have cut mine down if it were drilled for chokes.


Agreed. I might not cut down an original barrel even W/O choke drilling. I like the idea of modifying stuff but still being able to return it to original. There is value in having an unmolested gun VS one that is customized.


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## Jeb Stuart

Mine is just a shotgun. No problem cutting the barrel down.I have plenty of shotguns. It serves a purpose now and is not some prize collection piece. No need to sit in a safe or closet. I like shooting it with the shorter barrel. And guns are made for shooting. A $100.00 investment turned out well.


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## Goldwing

Jeb Stuart said:


> Mine is just a shotgun. No problem cutting the barrel down*.I have plenty of shotguns. It serves a purpose now and is not some prize collection piece.* No need to sit in a safe or closet. I like shooting it with the shorter barrel. And guns are made for shooting. A $100.00 investment turned out well.


I do not have several shotguns, and when for whatever reason I want to deal on an upgrade or trade on a gun, the other party in the transaction most often will pay less for an altered gun than one that is as it was built.
I am not trying to start an argument. Just saying how I roll.


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## berettatoter

I only own two shotguns. An H&R SB12 single shot, great for birds, and a H&R Pardner Pump...both in 12 GA. I look at the Pardner as a "home defense" shotgun.








Nothing fancy, but it is reliable and really tough. I like to use #4 buck as a defensive load.


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## Jeb Stuart

The single shots are under rated IMO. I have one that in 12ga 18" barrel and drilled for chokes. I also have a Mossberg Flex 20ga.. I have all the configurations. Pistol Grip, Cruiser, hunting stock, tactical stock and rifled barrel.20ga is great for home defense. Easy shooting, easy to maneuver etc.


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## berettatoter

Jeb Stuart said:


> The single shots are under rated IMO. I have one that in 12ga 18" barrel and drilled for chokes. I also have a Mossberg Flex 20ga.. I have all the configurations. Pistol Grip, Cruiser, hunting stock, tactical stock and rifled barrel.20ga is great for home defense. Easy shooting, easy to maneuver etc.


I agree about the single shots. The barrel on my H&R is a little long for what I would like in a "home defense" shotgun, but I can shoot it like a laser, in the field.








It is simple and rugged, and I can break it open and reload/shoot it fairly fast too.


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## Goldwing

berettatoter said:


> I agree about the single shots. The barrel on my H&R is a little long for what I would like in a "home defense" shotgun, but I can shoot it like a laser, in the field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is simple and rugged, and I can break it open and reload/shoot it fairly fast too.


Plus you can break it down and fit it into a case that is just long enough for the barrel. Maybe a violin case.


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## Jeb Stuart

Make a very versatile weapon like a bug out gun that can shoot almost anything from a 22.cal to center fire. And shoot other gauges. These come drilled for Beretta.mobile chokes. Weight only 4 1/2lbs



























Shooting 22.cal with a Single Shot Shotgun


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## berettatoter

Jeb Stuart said:


> Make a very versatile weapon like a bug out gun that can shoot almost anything from a 22.cal to center fire. And shoot other gauges. These come drilled for Beretta.mobile chokes. Weight only 4 1/2lbs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shooting 22.cal with a Single Shot Shotgun


What brand is that?


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## Jeb Stuart

berettatoter said:


> What brand is that?


Midland Backpack









Midland Arms - Home Of The Backpack


The origins of Midland firearms began in the late 19th Century when Midland Gun Company was established in Birmingham, England.



www.shootmidland.com





*



*


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## berettatoter

Stuart, I like that alot! I'm a sucker for single shot rifles and shotguns. It's probably why I like my H&R single shot so much. What I like about yours is the 18" barrel, for my H&R's barrel is running 24", I think.


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## Brian48

I've been very happy with my 18.5" Maverick 88. Paid $165 for it brand new a few years ago. Still one of the best sub $300+/- these days assuming you can find them in stock. Just as tough and reliable as it's more expensive brother the Mossberg 500. I have Magpul furniture and a Tac-light mounted on mine.


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## Belt Fed

Shotguns are great. RIA shotguns.


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## Belt Fed




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## Belt Fed

Dickinson hybrid, pump and auto


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## Belt Fed

Mossberg 590


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## FMHD

Idk guys, I’m def a shotgun guy if I had a choice. I don’t actually refute the birdshot either as close range it’ll blow through wood. The 4 buck is a good answer imo. 
How many guys under stress are gonna miss with an AR or pistol? Bear in mind as well a whole magazine full of AR 15 or pistol might not be as many rounds down range as one or two shot from the shotgun. Look at pellet counts to see. 9-18 for 00 in 2-3/4”-12ga to 3-1/2” 10ga. 
Use number 4s you might get near 40- 50 pellets if numbers don’t escape me. 
So many times many discount a shotgun. I remember years back at the Bank of America shooting. The bad guys were all covered up in armor. The cops ran to gun shop across the street tp get guns to “equalize” the playing field. 
These guys were relatively close. 
So they took untested, unclean, unsighted in guns and shot towards someone. Not the best move in my mind. They prob had shotguns in the truck, imagine the birdshot we spoke of being in that gun? Had they shot towards the unprotected eyes I’m pretty sure the bad guys wouldn’t look back at you again and the chance of a hit would be greater. 
Could have done the same w buckshot. 4s being a great option again. 
The higher chance of a successful shot imo is all the reason a shotgun would always be better at closer range barring it being too close if that makes sense. 
Noe choke and shot type matter as well but that’s a dif thread. 
An old 870 or A Mossberg would be good choices in open chokes. But just about any reliable shotgun would work fine. I’d just stick towards recommending those


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## Belt Fed

A shotgun with buckshot will stop any more aggression, but have you ever touched of a round of buckshot in a closed area like a house? Talk about an ear drum buster. If they just made a silencer for one.lol


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## Javbike

I own a mossberg 500 best shotgun for the money it my bedside weapon of choice


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