# Dog Attack



## lostsoul62 (Nov 25, 2011)

This is the 2nd dog attack and if there is another one it is going to be that dogs last attack. I posted this over a month ago and this is what happened today. First I'm 64 years old and not in great health. I'm walking down at the river in Tempe AZ and a pit bull gets away from a kid who should not have been on the lease in the first place and I see the dog charging form about 50 feet away so I reach in my pocket to get my pepper spray and then decided I can just protect my dog because the owners are only 50 feet away. Boy was I wrong. That pit bull went through me and I couldn’t protect my dog so I got ahold of its collar and pulled it off my dog and I figure if the dog bits me it will have a naughty headache after I punch him in the head as hard as I can but that didn’t happen because I am the one who would of got hurt with a broken hand. The people came and were very nice and I called the police which was useless and the people ask if they could help and I said no. I make 3 big mistakes. 1. I didn’t pepper spray the dog. 2. I didn’t ask the people to stay because I am calling the police. 3. I didn’t take any pictures of them with my cell phone camera. My dog seems to be OK and I am very upset and lucky. I called back the Tempe police and put in a complaint about the dispatcher who didn’t know the area and who was of no help and the supervisor will call me back tomorrow. The bottom line is I am going to get a permit to carry a gun and the next dog that attacks mine is going to be dead. What would be a good hand gun for this. I don't want to shoot though the attacking dog and shoot my own dog. I also don't have a problem shoting the attacking dog 3 or 4 times so an auto which is smaller than a revolver and faster. Any suggestions?


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

lostsoul62 said:


> ...... The bottom line is I am going to get a permit to carry a gun......


arizona is a constitutional carry state, so you dont need a permit, in fact there is no permit.

i suggest you get a lawyer instead of a gun, no one dies if your lawyer goes off in the wrong direction.


----------



## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

:numbchuck:


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> arizona is a constitutional carry state, so you dont need a permit, *in fact there is no permit. *
> 
> i suggest you get a lawyer instead of a gun, no one dies if your lawyer goes off in the wrong direction.


Yes there is. In order to carry in specific places a permit is still required.

As for the OP, stick with the spray, it's hard enough hitting accurate shots on large targets with little experience, let alone smaller fast moving animals.

Also, stop blaming the police/dispatcher that's a lame duck argument.

I understand you being upset, but a gun is not the answer to your problems.


----------



## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

pepperspray the dog, then the owner, call the cops, dog and owner are likely to still be there when they show up,


----------



## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Human-grade pepper spray is vastly more powerful than canine-grade pepper spray because the dogs have much more sensitive membranes. They down grade the pepper spray to make it legal to carry in states where they are regulated.

Human-grade pepper spray will be devastating on canines. A 2 ounce sprayer will give you about 20 seconds of spray--and you need less than one second to stop a dog (or a human). That gives you about 18 to 20 seconds to get the spray on-target; and that gives you a much better chance of stopping the dog than shooting will.

And unless you are very skilled or very lucky you will not stop a pit bull with a single shot from a handgun. A pit bull attacked my German Shepherd once when we were sitting outside Barnes and Noble. I was drinking a cup of coffee in a stainless steel mug and my dog was just sitting by my side. The pit bull got loose from the car as the owner stepped out and charged at us. My dog, who was already 9 years old was at the end of the leash to protect me. I spashed scalding hot coffee (I drink it black) right in the face of the pit bull. I then clocked the dog over the head 8 to 10 times as hard as I could. He seemed to not notice any of that. 

My dog was otherwise occupying the pit bull's attention and I was able to grab his collar with both my hands and hold him up off the ground. As long as I held the collar he could not reach me. He weighed about 50 or 60 pounds. 

The owner came and took the dog. He apologized. No one was hurt. No dog was injured. He paid for my damaged mug and coffee and I let him go.

After that I started carrying the pepper spray.

As a separate note, if I had been hitting the dog owner with the stainless steel mug he would have been hospitalized; I might be in jail for manslaughter. A human hit as often and hard in the head as that dog was would certainly be incapacitated. But the dog seemed never to notice. I don't think a kill shot from a 9mm or a .40 would kill a pit bull in time to protect you. 

Also, while it is pretty easy (if your are not scared to the point that you cannot function) to hit a dog that is charging right at you, it is a lot harder to hit one that is moving laterally in reference to you. They are quite small and they move very fast. Good luck with that. 

Also, if you accidentally get some pepper spray on an innocent as well as the attacker, the innocent will recover 100%; the same cannot be said for a errant pistol shot.


----------



## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

I may have not understood fully, but you said this is the second attack. Was it the same dog both times?


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> Yes there is. In order to carry in specific places a permit is still required.
> 
> .....


after rereading all the statues it does appear that arizona is issuing permits still but not because it significantly broadens your ability to carry in arizona but because it allows reciprocity... without some type of permit issued an arizona resident could not legally carry in most other states.

from the state constitution....

"Article 2 Section 26

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men. "

and with the state preemption no local laws apply to carry, so only the existing state laws that were not repealed apply. so i would love to see a list of "broadened rights" that a permit expands beyond the constitution?


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> after rereading all the statues it does appear that arizona is issuing permits still but not because it significantly broadens your ability to carry in arizona but because it allows reciprocity... without some type of permit issued an arizona resident could not legally carry in most other states.
> 
> from the state constitution....
> 
> ...


If you do not have a permit/license issued by the State of Arizona or any other state you can not carry into places that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

VAMarine said:


> If you do not have a permit/license issued by the State of Arizona or any other state you can not carry into places that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.


unless they are a restaurant, then its totally legal, but there may be restrictions on where you can sit (dining area vs bar area)

thanks for pointing this out vamarine , as many times as i read it, it didnt register.....


----------



## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> arizona is a constitutional carry state, so you dont need a permit, in fact there is no permit.
> 
> i suggest you get a lawyer instead of a gun, no one dies if your lawyer goes off in the wrong direction.


This is good advice. If you do decide to buy a handgun, I would suggest something like a .380 ACP or a small 9mm. Go to a few gun stores and check them out for feel, and if you narrow it down to a couple then try to shoot the guns if possible. TedDeBearFrmHell is right though, about getting a gun just to blow that dog away - even though I would feel the same way. In fact, I would probably already have to be dealing with the legalities by now because I carry everywhere and probably would have grabbed at the gun before I grabbed for my pepper spray. Good luck with you handgun search.:smt1099


----------



## lostsoul62 (Nov 25, 2011)

*What are you talking about*

Also, stop blaming the police/dispatcher that's a lame duck argument.

What are you talking about? You wasn't there so how can you say "lame duck argument" when you weren't there and didn't here the conversation?


----------



## lostsoul62 (Nov 25, 2011)

berettatoter said:


> This is good advice. If you do decide to buy a handgun, I would suggest something like a .380 ACP or a small 9mm. Go to a few gun stores and check them out for feel, and if you narrow it down to a couple then try to shoot the guns if possible. TedDeBearFrmHell is right though, about getting a gun just to blow that dog away - even though I would feel the same way. In fact, I would probably already have to be dealing with the legalities by now because I carry everywhere and probably would have grabbed at the gun before I grabbed for my pepper spray. Good luck with you handgun search.:smt1099


I don't have any desire to hurt or kill a dog. I would like to use as much common since as possible. I don't feel safe or competent with pepper spray. So I think maybe a cattle prod but I don't know how long and it's kind of a bummer to carry. A stunt gun? I would only carry a gun if I was out in the boondock because then you might run into a pack which I have seen. I really felt bad and stupid today thinking I could deter a pit bull by getting between him and my dog. I finally got the dog by the collar and pull him away and I was lucky and don't want something like that to happen again. I also learn something else today and don't depend on the law to help much but someone was right about zapping the dog and waiting for the law to show up. When you're upset you say crazy things and all I want to do is use the most effective but minimum force I can use and feel safe about it. I sure don't want this to force me to not walk my dog and the first dog attack was in OKC. I also think that the pit bull didn't want to hurt my dog but to show it that it was the boss but that might not be true next time. I'm new to guns so this might be a stupid question but maybe rubber bullets that won't kill but would put a lot of pain on a dogs ass. I might be off on this but just wanted to ask?


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

lostsoul62 said:


> Also, stop blaming the police/dispatcher that's a lame duck argument.
> 
> What are you talking about? You wasn't there so how can you say "lame duck argument" when you weren't there and didn't here the conversation?


Seriously, of all the advice given regarding your situation you choose to comment on this piece?



> I called back the Tempe police and put in a complaint about the dispatcher who didn't know the area who was of no help


How is it the dispatchers' fault for "not knowing the area"? As for them being no help, enlighten us as to the issue.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

lostsoul62 said:


> I don't have any desire to hurt or kill a dog. I would like to use as much common since as possible.* I don't feel safe or competent with pepper spray.* So I think maybe a cattle prod but I don't know how long and it's kind of a bummer to carry. A stunt gun? I would only carry a gun if I was out in the boondock because then you might run into a pack which I have seen. I really felt bad and stupid today thinking I could deter a pit bull by getting between him and my dog. I finally got the dog by the collar and pull him away and I was lucky and don't want something like that to happen again. I also learn something else today and don't depend on the law to help much but someone was right about zapping the dog and waiting for the law to show up. When you're upset you say crazy things and all I want to do is use the most effective but minimum force I can use and feel safe about it. I sure don't want this to force me to not walk my dog and the first dog attack was in OKC. I also think that the pit bull didn't want to hurt my dog but to show it that it was the boss but that might not be true next time. I'm new to guns so this might be a stupid question but maybe rubber bullets that won't kill but would put a lot of pain on a dogs ass. I might be off on this but just wanted to ask?


If you do not fee safe or competent with a non-lethal spray, what in the name of Pete Rose makes you think a handgun would be the right answer? As for the rubber bullets, that is a touchy thing, some states do not differentiate between lethal and less-than-lethal force when it comes to rubber bullets used by civilians. Anything worth legally shooting is worth shooting with real bullets. When it comes to guns and shooting you are legally responsible for every projectile that leaves the barrel, if you shoot at a dog and miss, you will be responsible for whatever damage occurs, be it to person or property. You may also face chargers for unlawful discharge of a firearm (jurisdiction specific), reckless endangerment, and reckless use of a firearm etc.

Again, I understand where you're coming from, but I really don't think a handgun is the right answer.


----------



## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

lostsoul62 said:


> . . . Any suggestions?


I sent you a PM. Doesn't seem to have gone through yet. I'll check on later. 
I tried to provide you with some info and advice, for what it's worth. I don't want it to appear in Google.


----------



## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

Walk your dog somewhere else.


----------



## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

Holly said:


> Walk your dog somewhere else.


I'll grant you "good intentions", Holly.
But, EVERYONE should be prepared to deal with feral or rogue domestic dogs. They can and do exist anywhere.
No different than being prepared to deal with feral or rogue domestic humans. They can and do exist anywhere. Except they are more numerous. :smt1099


----------



## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm not saying don't be prepared. However, if this is the second time, then maybe he should be walking elsewhere. Having a weapon is no excuse to purposefully put one's self in harm's way.


----------



## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

A few points:

Always try to use the best tool for the job. In this case pepper spray is most likely to have a satisfactory outcome.

In New York at least, a dog is "simple property", you cannot defend it and if you damage it you are responsible for the cost to replace.

If you are defending yourself or another person you would probably not be responsible for the replacement costs.

Despite the legal definition of "simple property" most owners do not consider the dog simple property, but rather a member of the family. If you live in a state that allows most people to carry a weapon, then there is the risk that the dog's owner is armed too. Another issue to consider.

If you are irresponsible in your actions you may have problems with the ASPCA and others. In many states the ASPCA has enforcement powers.

If you can read lips as I can you can be in a very difficult spot. I saw a guy with a pit bull release the dog and say "get him". I was the only one who "heard" this besides the dog. In that case the owner is the perp and the dog is his weapon. Who do you shoot?

On the practical side, dogs are very easy to cold cock. They knock out easier than a boxer with a glass jaw. I've seen this demonstrated and I will outline the technique.

First you have to understand that if you are paralyzed by fear when a dog attacks you have already lost the battle. Run for safety.

Trained attack dogs are trained to "go high", that is they do not bite at the legs. They will always attack the leading arm. So if you are pointing a gun at them they will attack the gun hand. 

If you hit a dog under the chin with a strong upward motion you will knock them out. 

The technique is to present your weak hand as a target. When the dog is mid-air move your weak hand back and sweep up with your strong hand striking the dog under the chin with your forearm. The dog will go down like a ton of bricks and it will look like you've killed it. It will come to shortly go get to safety.

If you are intent on shooting the dog you need to keep the gun hand close to your body and present the weak hand as a target. Once the dog is mid-air or actually on your weak arm pull the trigger being careful not to shoot yourself in the arm.

In all cases I would opt for the single best tool for the job. That might include a bludgeon, pepper spray or jumping on the roof of a car.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Packard said:


> A few points:
> 
> Always try to use the best tool for the job. In this case pepper spray is most likely to have a satisfactory outcome.
> 
> ...


:roll:


----------



## jdw68 (Nov 5, 2011)

I tend to think that a CCW is their for an attack that is life threatening and unexpected. If I truely expected to be attacked on a walk I think I would choose not to go on that walk. If I pull a CCW it's because I have no choice and couldn't have anticipated the perp who is attacking me or mine. If I ever do use lethal force I should be prepared to explain in court why I had to use lethal force to defend myself and my family. I just don't think that shooting a dog that is attacking my dog reaches the necessary level for using lethal force. I would much prefer to use pepper spray or a tazer on a nuisance animal. I'm not the authority on this and this is just my opinion, but maybe it helps.


----------



## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

jdw68 said:


> I tend to think that a CCW is their for an attack that is life threatening and unexpected. If I truely expected to be attacked on a walk I think I would choose not to go on that walk.


My point, exactly!


----------



## lostsoul62 (Nov 25, 2011)

jdw68 said:


> I tend to think that a CCW is their for an attack that is life threatening and unexpected. If I truely expected to be attacked on a walk I think I would choose not to go on that walk. If I pull a CCW it's because I have no choice and couldn't have anticipated the perp who is attacking me or mine. If I ever do use lethal force I should be prepared to explain in court why I had to use lethal force to defend myself and my family. I just don't think that shooting a dog that is attacking my dog reaches the necessary level for using lethal force. I would much prefer to use pepper spray or a tazer on a nuisance animal. I'm not the authority on this and this is just my opinion, but maybe it helps.


Of course we aren't going to go on a walk where we know it's dangerous. So you're walking your dog in your area and a big dog gets loose and attacks you and your dog and you pepper spray him while his is charging you at 20 MPH and the pepper spray does not stop him. So while he is killing your dog you reach down to grab the dog and he bits you and over powers you. So don't you think it might be a good idea to have a 380 in a back holster for a backup. If you don't think this could happen you can bet you life on it but I wouldn't take that bet. Anyway I'm buying a cattle prod but would still like a backup. I'm posting this for advice because after the pitt bull attack I'm scared to walk my dog again and I just want to feel and be safe.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

lostsoul62 said:


> Of course we aren't going to go on a walk where we know it's dangerous. So you're walking your dog in your area and a big dog gets loose and attacks you and your dog and you pepper spray him while his is charging you at 20 MPH and the pepper spray does not stop him. So while he is killing your dog you reach down to grab the dog and he bits you and over powers you. So don't you think it might be a good idea to have a 380 in a back holster for a backup. If you don't think this could happen you can bet you life on it but I wouldn't take that bet. Anyway I'm buying a cattle prod but would still like a backup. I'm posting this for advice because after the pitt bull attack I'm scared to walk my dog again and I just want to feel and be safe.


so based on your original post i think it is safe to assume that your experience with guns and shooting is minimal at best and probably non-existent..... and now you want to shoot a 20mph moving target that may or may not be attacking you or your dog while other people are in the immediate area..... i restate my first post..... get a lawyer, now for totally different reasons ..... instead of a civil lawyer, look into a defense attorney


----------



## lostsoul62 (Nov 25, 2011)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> so based on your original post i think it is safe to assume that your experience with guns and shooting is minimal at best and probably non-existent..... and now you want to shoot a 20mph moving target that may or may not be attacking you or your dog while other people are in the immediate area..... i restate my first post..... get a lawyer, now for totally different reasons ..... instead of a civil lawyer, look into a defense attorney


I think you need to read the post more closely.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i think you have an agenda and are looking for validation....i have given the best advice i can, now i am out.


----------



## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

I believe the bear frm hell. is saying that going out on a walk planning on shooting a dog and not taking less drastic steps first is not a grand idea...


----------



## lostsoul62 (Nov 25, 2011)

so based on your original post i think it is safe to assume that your experience with guns and shooting is minimal at best and probably non-existent
Incorrect
and now you want to shoot a 20mph moving target that may or may not be attacking you or your dog while other people are in the immediate area
Incorrect again
My first post was posted when I was upset. If you read my last post you will see that a gun will be use as a backup only or better put in a life threating situation. It sounds to me that people like to read the wrost in a post but that is human nature


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

forgive me, i made the assumption that you said what you meant.....

*


lostsoul62 said:



........What would be a good hand gun for this. I don't want to shoot though the attacking dog and shoot my own dog. I also don't have a problem shoting the attacking dog 3 or 4 times so an auto which is smaller than a revolver and faster. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

*i assumed that since you asked about the best gun to shoot the dog with without shooting your dog that you 
A) wanted to shoot the other dog and 
B) you were not familiar with guns enough to know that any gun CAN go thru the bad dog and into the good dog or the bad dogs owner or anyone else in the area (this lack of basic gun safety lead me to make the assumption)



lostsoul62 said:


> ....while his is charging you at 20 MPH and the pepper spray does not stop him. So while he is killing your dog you reach down to grab the dog and he bits you and over powers you.....


and i assumed that this scenario is your agenda.... again, my mistake for using your own words to form an opinion of your motive for inquiry.... validation of the agenda

i dont think the worst of people, i watch and listen and form an opinion based on what they say do and say.

again, i am sorry that i took your words in context..... i shall work on my esp so i can get the true meaning next time


----------



## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

\"doggy::enforcer:

Ah! Sorry! I couldn't help myself... 

*ashamed*


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Holly said:


> *ashamed*


my new found use of esp tells me otherwise


----------



## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

Busted!


----------



## nonnymouse (Nov 30, 2011)

Just a note....I have been assured that wasp spray....cheap and plentiful...will stop humans faster and more effectively than pepperspray. Perhaps it works the same for dogs. It also has a much better range than a can of pepperspray.


----------



## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

nonnymouse said:


> Just a note....I have been assured that wasp spray....cheap and plentiful...will stop humans faster and more effectively than pepperspray. Perhaps it works the same for dogs. It also has a much better range than a can of pepperspray.


That chain email going around again? Just say no to forwards....and Wasp Spray for defensive purposes...unless your defending against wasps. It may work, it may not. Pepper/OC Spray has been tested on humans for it's effect. Wasp spray has not.


----------



## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I would agree and be informed as to what constitutes use of deadly force on a domestic animal. Your pet in all likelyhood would be considered property, I'd contact the DA or local Sheriffs office to determine what charges if any, or arrest may take place even if your dog is attacked by this 2 time offender. When I grew up neighborhood dogs would commonly fight, one time however a neighbor shot into the ground to break up a dog fight. Now, if the pitbull attacks you that would be a different story. Does your jurisdiction have a leash law in effect and is it possible you may be able to contact animal control or something to that effect. Likewise a taser I've heard has good effect on dogs and may be something to consider over dispatching a dog with a firearm in the neighborhood with a probability of it escalating to a gun fight between you and the idiot that owns the pitbull. I agree with VA a handgun may not be your best option until you know for a fact that you will not be held accountable for criminal charges, civil lawsuit, or perhaps arrest. If you do shoot it I'd go at least with a 9mm and try to place them through the lungs, or a good spine shot as their heads are hard as hell and a probability of ricchochet may be possible.


----------



## inssane (May 1, 2011)

I am a huge fan of Pits as they are the best PEOPLE dogs. I have one myself and wouldn't trade him out.

That being said, there are TONS of morons that own these dogs. If I read correctly, this is happening on your property. On or off your property, your best bet is some strong mace, one that streams instead of a poofy spray. That should surely stop, or at least occupy him enough to get away. Even without an attack, right now or in the morning, simply file a complaint against the person if you can. If you already have complaints on record, you may be able to have the dog taken away. 

I hate to say it, but the dog is better off being put down in the pound than going out in a hail of bullets.
My parting words are that a .40 head shot would work, and a .44 chest shot if you ABSOLUTELY have to for your safety.
I knew a person, long and short of it, the offender attacked this person, and he sent his Pit - the dog took 4 clocks to the head with an aluminum bat and still grabbed the guy's arm and took him down text book.
Take that for what you will.

Good Luck
Nick


----------



## inssane (May 1, 2011)

PS!!
You should fashion or buy a "break" stick. If you need to and are brave enough, when the pit bites and holds your dog, the break stick is wedged in between his teeth on the side of his mouth, it pries his mouth open. Even if the dog is shot dead, you may still need a tool like this to pry his jaws a bit.
And no they don't get lock jaw - it's a myth


----------



## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

inssane said:


> And no they don't get lock jaw - it's a myth


Good to know


----------

