# Still think you need a large caliber to kill??



## jrwilson

So the police in Ohio said the gun recovered from the high school shooting was a .22 cal handgun. That caliber has killed three kids already, but hopefully no more. It just goes to show how much damage a simple .22 pistol can do. I need to remember that the next time I think my 9mm 115 grain target ammo is wimpy. My prayers go out to the parents and community at large.


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## scooter

If I was sitting above a barrel full of fish I could kill them all with a bb gun............sorta like that sick FK did, what has that got to do with stopping power....not a damn thing
My Condolences to the families of Government enforced kill zone victims.


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## Blade

Check medical records anywhere. The vast majority of people who die from gunshot wounds, die of blood loss. And in many cases the person remains functional for a period of time before that happens. As Scooter says, the ability of a bullet to create a fatal wound has nothing to do with the ability of a bullet to stop a man in his tracks and eliminate him as a potential threat.


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## ngzcaz

The " stopping ability " of any weapon is in direct connection with its recoil. A weapon firing a projectile does not magically increase its energy when it leaves the barrel. That's why if you ask any person that was actually shot will tell you its like being hit with a fist. Generally this is from .40's, 9mm. .38 etc.. About the same as the recoil generated by these weapons. A smaller caliber will have more of a hornet or wasp sting effect. While a larger more powerful bullet has the potential to break bones and have a bit more shock value, don't believe the Dirty Harry and old time westerns that have people being blown back out thru a window and the like by a .45 or even a .44 magnum. A .22 also has the likely hood of tumbling when entering the body causing even further damage. It may stay in the body which is even worse. Shoot a .22 at a 2x4 and look at the other side and decide if you want to be in the way. A carried .22 is worth way more than a non carried .44 magnum. 

No, I'm not advocating carrying a .22 for self defense UNLESS you have no intention of carrying a full sized Beretta or Taurus 92, .44 magnum etc.......... then by all means stick a .22 in your pocket. And load it with solid 40 grain high speed ammo for reliable functioning and maximum penetration.


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## prof_fate

No pistol compares to a rifle.
I've shot many a rabbit in my yard with a 22LR rifle. One shot and they're done and 75% are dead by the time I get there, or a second shot will do it.
Had to put down a cat, figured I'd use my 22 pistol...took 9 shots. I was aiming for the heart, not head (like with rabbits) and was after painless death, not wanting the cat to suffer any more than necessary.
I thought the 22 would do the job...


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## Blade

Oh, there's no doubt that a .22 can be a stopper. Watch the films of the assassination attempt on Reagan. One of the secret service agents took a .22 to the liver. He went down and stayed down. So, yes, it can stop a man. But the question is, will it do so consistently? And the answer is no. The larger the caliber, the greater the wound channel, and the greater the likelihood that you will do incapacitating damage. No pistol bullet is a guaranteed stopper every time. But the larger calibers increase your odds.


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## VAMarine

Blade said:


> Oh, there's no doubt that a .22 can be a stopper. Watch the films of the assassination attempt on Reagan. One of the secret service agents took a .22 to the liver. He went down and stayed down. So, yes, it can stop a man. But the question is, will it do so consistently? And the answer is no. The larger the caliber, the greater the wound channel, and the greater the likelihood that you will do incapacitating damage. No pistol bullet is a guaranteed stopper every time. But the larger calibers increase your odds.


Exactly.

Looking at this chart we see why the .22 is undesirable. Sure it can kill you, but in some cases, so can a bee sting.









_From: *An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power* by Greg Ellifritz_


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

ngzcaz said:


> The " stopping ability " of any weapon is in direct connection with its recoil.


this is simply not true..... the stopping ability of any weapon is in direct connection to the WOUND PLACEMENT...... if you shoot a man in HAND with a 9mm (greater recoil) or in the head with a .22 (lesser recoil) .... the .22 is going to have a greater chance of stopping the man NOW.

the same goes for ANY weapon from spears to axes to screw drivers..... its where, not what with!


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## recoilguy

Where do I start........placement is key recoil....not so much.

I am always amazed at the things people write in threads like this. The things they think are true or that they have heard and think if they repeat it they will sound smart. 

I would like to send my prayers out to the families of the victims and all influenced by the shooting in the school.

If you want to kill your pet........shoot it in the freakin head! It goes right to the placement thing again.

RCG


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## Blade

Of course shot placement is important. There are people who have died from a pellet gun hit to the heart. But a lot of people assume that a self defense situation is always going to present them with time to cooly and calmly draw their gun, take careful aim, and put that first shot in just the right spot. Doesn't always happen that way. You're walking down the street and some guy charges at you without warning, or you get surprised in your home, or any number of scenarios. You are going to be doing good to just draw your weapon and get off one rushed shot before he's on you. I'd like to think that my skills are such that I can draw and put my first shot in the heart or head in a fraction of a second. But I simply can't count on it. So if I do manage to get off that one shot, and I hit them in the body, I want the good odds that one shot is going to do some good and not just make the guy say "ouch". As I said, no CCW gun is a guaranteed stopper. But a bigger bullet does increase your odds.

OK, I've said enough. I'll quit repeating myself trying to sound smart.


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## paratrooper

A .22LR round is nothing to sneeze at. It is one, if not the most popular round in existance. 

More people are more prone to have a .22 caliber firearm in their household, than any other caliber. 

If one has a cache of ammo, the .22LR will most likely be the most in abundance.


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## Baldy

Shot placement is King, Penetration is Queen, everything else is just Angels dancing on the head of a pin. It's just that simple folks...:smt033


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## chessail77

If I am in a stressful shooting situation I know that my practice and training will take over to some degree, but I also know it will likely be that shot placement will not be that easy and I will certainly need more reliance on stopping power as well......I would also like to add my own thoughts and prayers to the victims families and friends....JJ


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## berettabone

If it's the previous scenario mentioned, and you don't have alot of time, shoot them in their junk....doesn't matter what the caliber is....you have placement, shock and fear.......


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## ngzcaz

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> this is simply not true..... the stopping ability of any weapon is in direct connection to the WOUND PLACEMENT...... if you shoot a man in HAND with a 9mm (greater recoil) or in the head with a .22 (lesser recoil) .... the .22 is going to have a greater chance of stopping the man NOW.
> 
> the same goes for ANY weapon from spears to axes to screw drivers..... its where, not what with!


 Of course I was referring to similarly placed shots. To think otherwise would simply not be logical and rational as pointed out by the example.
" Stopping ability " is greatly exaggerated by movies and well meaning but grossly uniformed people on forums such as this. It was meant ( but 
apparently not understood ) that the force generated by the weapon cannot be magnified after it leaves the weapon. The amount of recoil one
feels with a handgun is roughly the force it hits its target at its maximum. The further the projectile travels, the less force it has when it hits. If
one shoots a rifle the recoil is further diminished by perhaps a rubber pad and the weight of the rifle. But the force of the cartridge cannot be 
magnified beyond the point when it leaves the barrel. Obviously compensated weapons and recoil reduction devices built into the handgun do 
not apply to this.

Bottom line. If you can hold on to your handgun after you discharge it do you really think it will knock someone down in a non vital area ? A 
9mm, .40, 10mm etc isn't enough. As noted above a well placed shot is.. So don't get too hung up on cartridge size. The old saying " bigger is
better is still true "........................ if you are carrying it and can hit what you aim at and in the shortest possible time. A lot of people aren't
carrying and can't hit what they aim at anyway. Practice, practice practice.

And to the person who shot his cat.... well... words escape me.


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## denner

VAMarine said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Looking at this chart we see why the .22 is undesirable. Sure it can call you, but in some cases, so can a bee sting.
> 
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> _From: *An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power* by Greg Ellifritz_


Wow, whats up with the "32 cal"


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## prof_fate

ngzcaz said:


> And to the person who shot his cat.... well... words escape me.


You eat meat? Cows pigs and chickens are not dropping dead of natural causes.
Ever have a sick animal put down? OK, you can pay the vet $150 (yep, that's the minimum price these days IF you can find one to even do it - most won't unless they've been caring for it for years...). Or I can use 15c worth of ammo and obtain the same results. I"m burying Fluffy in the rose garden either way.

Things are WAY out of hand with pets these days. Last week a lady with 4 dogs brings home her 3 day old infant and the one dog kills it. Yes, attacked it in the living room in the car seat carrier thing. Of course the dog is taken away...destroyed? Nope. Given out for adoption 2 days later! Sorry, it's a flippin' animal, not a person. Don't abuse them, but they don't get the rights of people. Dog kills kid - adults kill dog is the way it should be. Today a judge stayed the execution of the dog... http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12060/1213523-55.stm

When my mom was a kid they had a german shepard. Kids were running and the dog was chasing, downed the last kid and bit her the leg (my aunt). Their dad (my grandpa) grabbed his hunting rifle and dispatched the dog immediately. He refused to endanger his children.


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## scooter

when I was about 10 my dad threw a rock at one of our dogs for chasing the chickens, he just wanted to scare the dog but hit him in the back and broke his back....he went inside the house, came out with a bearcat 22(moms) and shot it in the head...end of pain.
Now my sisters cried about losing the dog, but not how or why.
Nowadays they would have probably jailed him for the rock and the bullet....our country has become so sissified it is pathetic.


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## jrwilson

Denner, click on the link below the chart and you will get a better picture of the .32, there is a little bit more to that round than what the graph shows. It was one of the highest percentage one shot incapacitated rounds on the list.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

jrwilson said:


> Denner, click on the link below the chart and you will get a better picture of the .32, there is a little bit more to that round than what the graph shows. It was one of the highest percentage one shot incapacitated rounds on the list.


could be that during ww2 the .32 was used for executions.... thereby gaining a 1 shot to 1 kill ratio?

just an idea


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## Richardin52

Old trapper I used to know who is dead now used to shoot bear whith a .22 handgun. He alway carried it while trapping, said he would just walk up and put one in their head. He didn,t know much about balistics but he knew how to kill a bear in a trap.


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## truggles

You may notice that when you click the link below the chart it gives very specific numbers, except for the .22 .32 .357 and shotguns. These however take all the cartridges available in the caliber (except shotgun is a whole) and compiles them into one big batch. You may notice that the .22 has shorts longs and long rifles all thrown in there together. This does not make much sense to me considering that the .22 short does not compare to the .22 long rifle bullet. My brother and I used to buy the shorts to shoot birds in our neighborhood so nobody could hear us shooting and be alarmed. We also tried shooting squirrels with these... This was a disaster. We could only kill them if we either put one in the head, or if we missed the head we would most definitely have to follow up with at least one more shot to even slow the squirrel down. However with the typical .22 long rifle I cannot remember ever taking numerous shots on a squirrel.

These shots were taken on squirrels, an obviously easier kill, but still shows that the data is misleading. The data should have been collected individually of short, long, and long rifle ammunition.

Most of us would have just assumed that all the data in an experiment that is on the internet has to be accurate. Who puts misleading stuff on the internet theses days anyways? lol

Don't think that I am trying to put down this article or anything. The site looks pretty legit to be lying to us. I am sure that all of the data is accurate, however all data can be misleading.


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