# A .45 or .40? I already have a 9mm... Decision, decisions (revisited)



## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Alright guys as I've stated before, I purchased a Beretta full size 9mm PX4 Storm and its the real deal!

I'm in love with it but want to add something with a little spice to my stable.

I havent shot either one and I know you guys are going to say. Just go try them both out.

With that set aside, what would you get, bystep the .40 and get the .45?

Im thinking of just not even getting the .40 and getting something with a little more man power!

Any advice is accepted and appreciated!!!!!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I presently have a total of five .45's. 

The .45 has been around forever, and the ammo is easy to obtain. At least it used to be. 

I also have two .40's. I'd be hard-pressed to want to get rid of any of them.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> I presently have a total of five .45's.
> 
> The .45 has been around forever, and the ammo is easy to obtain. At least it used to be.
> 
> I also have two .40's. I'd be hard-pressed to want to get rid of any of them.


Do you have any 9mm?

Do you like the .45 over the .40 because it has more girth?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I have guns in all three of these calibers. I carry a gen3 Glock 23, which is of course a .40S&W, so that might tell you where my preference lies. The best of my .45's, in terms of feel and carry ability, is my M&P 45 4" barrel. This is a real gem of a pistol. I installed the Apex DCAEK but kept the stock OEM trigger spring. This results in a very nice 5 pound trigger with an excellent break for a striker fired gun. Very crisp let off; almost like a 1911.

The reason I carry a Glock 23 is because it is a superb gun for a multitude of carry situations. Powerful, decent number of rounds, accurate, and dependable.

Hope this helps you.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up!

What 9mm do you have? Where do you CCW that Glock?


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## cgpeanut (Jan 16, 2013)

I had the ruger sr9 fullsize, sr9c and kahr k9 and currently carry the kahr pm9 for deep concealment or as backup gun, moved on and now have the Springfield xds 45 acp, Sig 1911 TTT and m&p45 that came with a threaded and standard barell, loving the 45 easy & inexpensive to reload, accurate to shoot and more exiciting IMHO. Shot the 40sw and thought it was a bit animick once you go 45 you'll never go back.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm more more of a purist and say 45.It's a caliber that will always be floating around somewhere,for me the 45 gives quicker hammers accurate and losing the few rounds doesn't bother me since I have a 12rd 45 and know how to reload quickly.

The 40 is a good round that mimicks the 45 with 2? rounds more but the one I shot sucked with the flip,and I can't say what ammo it was.My son just picked up a CZ he's bringing over so I'll give it a run and see how it handles.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Sounds like .45 people are diggin these days. I might have to get one as I already have a 9mm. Broaden my horizons as I've stated before!

THe only concern I have is the cost of ammo on the .45. Right now I'm paying about $17 a box of 50 rds of 9mm.

I'm guessing 50 rds of .45 are $22ish!?


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

In New York, 50 rounds of CCI Blazer 230 gr FMJ target ammo (aluminum casings) can be found for $20. Both my M&P .45 and my SA XDs handle these rounds without a problem.


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

you will find that there are folks who will prefer one caliber over another, and some of those folks will live and breathe a round. the .45, .40, 9mm war will rage till the end of time! 

i personally think the .45acp round is overrated. yeah it's big, but it's slow. you could almost throw a rock faster. if i wanna put a big hole in a walking target and knock it down i will launch a .357 magnum at it.

for handguns i own at least one in each of .22 short, 22lr, 7.62x25, 7.62x38, 9x18, 9x19, .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .40 S&W and .44. i carry either a .38 or a .40.

you want a .45? get one. but it wont make a lick of difference when you put a round center mass on a two legged target if it was a 9, a .40 or a .45.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TheLAGuy said:


> Thanks for the heads up!
> 
> What 9mm do you have? Where do you CCW that Glock?


I have guns in 9mm from six different manufacturers, three of which have entries in my carry stable. The 9mm is a very versatile cartridge in that there are so many handguns out there chambered for this round; so many really fine candidate selections from which to choose.

As for where I carry my gen3 Glock 23... Anywhere I want to when I am out and about. Most of the time I open carry, but there are certainly times when I conceal my firearm. Those are times when I deem it to be in my better interests for whatever reason. But most always, it is in a secure belt holster out in the open. The Glock 23 is an excellent choice for those who carry as I do in my opinion.

I am fortunate to live in a state where there are very few places that one cannot carry and very few private business which post "No Guns" signs. This is indeed, a very gun-friendly place to live. One might think this is not the case since I am only about 35 miles from Washington, DC, but it is a fact. You'd be amazed at the places we carry down here. I have OC'd in my bank, police precincts, stores, restaurants (yes, that serve alcohol), during town festivals, car shops, shopping centers, at political gatherings in Richmond, in my state legislators' office building, and a bunch of other places. Around county police, sheriffs and their deputies, federal agents (FBI, DEA, and God knows what else), a mayor, and others. It's just a no brainer down here.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Broondog said:


> you will find that there are folks who will prefer one caliber over another, and some of those folks will live and breathe a round. the .45, .40, 9mm war will rage till the end of time!
> 
> i personally think the .45acp round is overrated. yeah it's big, but it's slow. you could almost throw a rock faster. if i wanna put a big hole in a walking target and knock it down i will launch a .357 magnum at it.
> 
> ...


So, you've shot people before with all three?

Not being nasty or trying to start an argument, but I know people who have and who have been on the other side (as in hospital and emergency work) and they will tell you a different story. There are so many variables involved in this that one just cannot make a blanket statement that covers everything. The old adage, use the most powerful gun and cartridge which you will carry all the time and with which you can confidently and consistently deliver rounds to target is still true today. If that is a 9mm, so be it. If it is a .40 or a .45, then that's what you should use. Then pray your weapons system and you can do the job.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

SouthernBoy said:


> So, you've shot people before with all three?
> 
> Not being nasty or trying to start an argument, but I know people who have and who have been on the other side (as in hospital and emergency work) and they will tell you a different story. There are so many variables involved in this that one just cannot make a blanket statement that covers everything. The old adage, use the most powerful gun and cartridge which you will carry all the time and with which you can confidently and consistently deliver rounds to target is still true today. If that is a 9mm, so be it. If it is a .40 or a .45, then that's what you should use. Then pray your weapons system and you can do the job.


What's the different story on the center mass shot? I'd like to hear it? Were they hit with a Federal +p+, HST', Ranger, or Golddot? With top end modern hollowpoints the ballistics and performance between 9, 40, and 45 is minuscule. I'm just as sure that many more that have taken a center mass shot with a 9 can tell no story. It's not whether it's a 9mm, 40cal, or .45 it's where you put them and with how many. Many have been shot numerous times with the calibers mentioned and have survived, and/or kept fighting. In Boise Idaho back in 2009 a suspect was shot 20 times w/ 45's and survived. In another police involved shooting the perp was hit 21 times, 17 center mass with a .40cal and kept fighting and so on........


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

denner said:


> What's the different story on the center mass shot? I'd like to hear it? Were they hit with a Federal +p+, HST', Ranger, or Golddot? With top end modern hollowpoints the ballistics and performance between 9, 40, and 45 is minuscule. I'm just as sure that many more that have taken a center mass shot with a 9 can tell no story. It's not whether it's a 9mm, 40cal, or .45 it's where you put them and with how many. Many have been shot numerous times with the calibers mentioned and have survived, and/or kept fighting. In Boise Idaho back in 2009 a suspect was shot 20 times w/ 45's and survived. In another police involved shooting the perp was hit 21 times, 17 center mass with a .40cal and kept fighting and so on........


So what your saying is that its luck of the draw?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> So what your saying is that its luck of the draw?


That sure helps, but I think what he is saying is that all handguns (with few exceptions) suck at effectivley stopping threats.

All of the primary service calibers are within a few percentage points of each other in terms of terminal performance when using premium jackected/bonded hollow points.

The average attacker requires 3 shots (rounding up to err on the side of caution) to be incapacitiaed. Better than luck of draw is the ability to dispense those three shots quickly and accurately with more on tap should you find yourself in an above average situation or one in which multiple attackers need to be stopped.

http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=29084

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-center-mass-myth-and-ending-a-gunfight-triggernometry/


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> That sure helps, but I think what he is saying is that all handguns (with few exceptions) suck at effectivley stopping threats.
> 
> All of the primary service calibers are within a few percentage points of each other in terms of terminal performance when using premium jackected/bonded hollow points.
> 
> The average attacker requires 3 shots (rounding up to err on the side of caution) to be incapacitiaed. Better than luck of draw is the ability to dispense those three shots quickly and accurately with more on tap should you find yourself in an above average situation or one in which multiple attackers need to be stopped.


Thanks for the info VAmarine, however 3 shots also means where they are placed.

So would you agree that a shotgun is a better options this day in age?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> Thanks for the info VAmarine, however 3 shots also means where they are placed.
> 
> So would you agree that a shotgun is a better options this day in age?


As for placment, yes hence my comments on accurate fire. I just updated my post above with some reading material, start with the fist link which takes you to a thread on this forum which is well worth the time to read.

As for the shotgun, not always. While it is far superior to any handgun in terms of stopping bad guys it is not without its flaws, but that's topic for another thread.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> As for placment, yes hence my comments on accurate fire. I just updated my post above with some reading material, start with the fist link which takes you to a thread on this forum which is well worth the time to read.
> 
> As for the shotgun, not always. While it is far superior to any handgun in terms of stopping bad guys it is not without its flaws, but that's topic for another thread.


I'll check those out tonight after work.

VAMarine, so whats your weapon of choice for personal protection?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

It varies. Currently it's a HK P30LS 9mm with light LEM trigger or. HKP30S 9mm.

http://www.handgunforum.net/hk/29633-hk-p30s-initial-thoughts.html#post279529

Prior to those it was a HK45
http://www.handgunforum.net/hk/27039-getting-acquainted-hk45.html

And before that going back to 2004 it had primarily been a variant of 1911 with some smaller guns here and there, but for the most part, a 1911.

I've had a couple of .40s but prefer the 9mm or .45


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> It varies. Currently it's a HK P30LS 9mm with light LEM trigger or. HKP30S 9mm.
> 
> http://www.handgunforum.net/hk/29633-hk-p30s-initial-thoughts.html#post279529
> 
> ...


Why 9mm outta curiosity, I have a Beretta PX4 storm, full size 9mm and I love it. It's my first.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

denner said:


> What's the different story on the center mass shot? I'd like to hear it? Were they hit with a Federal +p+, HST', Ranger, or Golddot? With top end modern hollowpoints the ballistics and performance between 9, 40, and 45 is minuscule. I'm just as sure that many more that have taken a center mass shot with a 9 can tell no story. It's not whether it's a 9mm, 40cal, or .45 it's where you put them and with how many. Many have been shot numerous times with the calibers mentioned and have survived, and/or kept fighting. In Boise Idaho back in 2009 a suspect was shot 20 times w/ 45's and survived. In another police involved shooting the perp was hit 21 times, 17 center mass with a .40cal and kept fighting and so on........


Center mass can frequently include having to penetrate the sternum and I have heard cases related to me and have seen a lecture describing how a 9mm (load not mentioned) failed to penetrate the sternum. The lecture even had a case where a .40S&W, again load not mentioned, failed to get past the sternum. One man I know on a website has described a number of cases where rounds (9mm in particular) were thrown off course by heavy bones and even heavy muscle. We worked as a police officer then later in what I took, in an emergency room. He has seen hundreds of cases of GSW's.

The real bottom line is this. You are never really going to know how your chosen caliber and load is going to work until you are faced with an extreme encounter where you have to call upon it to help you out. And even then, you are only going to know how it worked in that particular, instant case. I do carry a 9mm on occasion and when I do, my chosen load is either Gold Dot 124gr +P (53617), or HST 147gr +P. BTW, Federal does not make their HST load in the +P+ configuration.

Doctor's lecture;
Doctor Talks About Gunshot Wounds

Terminal ballistics in a morgue;
Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue

Three bad guys meet Mr. .40S&W;
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/firing-line/54735-justice-west-texas-style-graphic-photos.html

The second link has generated some discussions counter to the assessments made by the writer. That's okay if such discussion comes from people with experience in these matters. I don't know either of these people so I cannot vouch for their validity.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> Why 9mm outta curiosity, I have a Beretta PX4 storm, full size 9mm and I love it. It's my first.


Easier for me to shoot well, particularly when shooting strong or weak hand only and with few exceptions will hold the most ammunition in any given size than the others.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> Center mass can frequently include having to penetrate the sternum and I have heard cases related to me and have seen a lecture describing how a 9mm (load not mentioned) failed to penetrate the sternum. The lecture even had a case where a .40S&W, again load not mentioned, failed to get past the sternum. One man I know on a website has described a number of cases where rounds (9mm in particular) were thrown off course by heavy bones and even heavy muscle. We worked as a police officer then later in what I took, in an emergency room. He has seen hundreds of cases of GSW's.
> 
> The real bottom line is this. You are never really going to know how your chosen caliber and load is going to work until you are faced with an extreme encounter where you have to call upon it to help you out. And even then, you are only going to know how it worked in that particular, instant case. I do carry a 9mm on occasion and when I do, my chosen load is either Gold Dot 124gr +P (53617), or HST 147gr +P. BTW, Federal does not make their HST load in the +P+ configuration.
> 
> ...


Placement is key my friend, thats why range time is key IMO. I hope I never have to use my range skills, and I'm sure no one does, but practice makes perfect.

Whats your take on Hornady defense ammo?

Like I stated earlier, I'm seriously considering another round. It makes sense not just to have a 9mm option, especially with how rare the rounds are. I'm thinking .45 TBH.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> Easier for me to shoot well, particularly when shooting strong or weak hand only and with few exceptions will hold the most ammunition in any given size than the others.


Well I live in CA, 10 round maximum.

In my scenario, would you get a bigger round, compared to the 9mm?


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## CowToes (Jan 14, 2013)

I already had a .45acp and a 9mm and recently bought a .40S&W because it is LESS popular in the civilian market. During this ammo scare I have had no problems finding .40 S&W ammo at normal prices, but find ammo for my 9mm or .45 for resonable prices yeah right!


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> Well I live in CA, 10 round maximum.
> 
> In my scenario, would you get a bigger round, compared to the 9mm?


If in CA, I would probably go back to the .45.
Looking at the approved gun list...if buying new, I'd be looking at a S&W M&P45, or a Sig 220 Carry of some sort.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> If in CA, I would probably go back to the .45.
> Looking at the approved gun list...if buying new, I'd be looking at a S&W M&P45, or a Sig 220 Carry of some sort.


What's your take on the Glock 22, full size?

I'm also looking at a Sig but they're pricey. Thoughts?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> What's your take on the Glock 22, full size?
> 
> I'm also looking at a Sig but they're pricey. Thoughts?


For home defense?

The Glock is a good gun, a Glock is a Glock is a Glock, you pretty much know what you're going to get with one.

For carry I like the Sig. As I understand it, carry is a non-issue for you due to location within CA so that doesn't need to be taken into account.

I personally don't care for the Glock in stock format and with what I would spend on one to bring it to my liking I could buy a Sig and be happy with it in it's factory condition so for me it's a no brainer as the Sig fits my preferences better than the Glock.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> For home defense?
> 
> The Glock is a good gun, a Glock is a Glock is a Glock, you pretty much know what you're going to get with one.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input VAMarine, you aren't as bad I once thought. 

Playing aside, what full size Sig would you recommend? How much would one of these bad boys run me?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

SouthernBoy said:


> Center mass can frequently include having to penetrate the sternum and I have heard cases related to me and have seen a lecture describing how a 9mm (load not mentioned) failed to penetrate the sternum. The lecture even had a case where a .40S&W, again load not mentioned, failed to get past the sternum. One man I know on a website has described a number of cases where rounds (9mm in particular) were thrown off course by heavy bones and even heavy muscle. We worked as a police officer then later in what I took, in an emergency room. He has seen hundreds of cases of GSW's.
> 
> The real bottom line is this. You are never really going to know how your chosen caliber and load is going to work until you are faced with an extreme encounter where you have to call upon it to help you out. And even then, you are only going to know how it worked in that particular, instant case. I do carry a 9mm on occasion and when I do, my chosen load is either Gold Dot 124gr +P (53617), or HST 147gr +P. BTW, Federal does not make their HST load in the +P+ configuration.
> 
> ...


Well, concerning the lack of sternum penetration and glancing off heavy bone is concerned, would you not agree it was poor bullet weight choice or design that was to blame as opposed to just all 9mm loadings? I'd like to know the actual round make and weight fired in those observations. I indeed dont see 9mm Nato glancing off bone or failing to penetrate a sternum within 200 yards. Nor do I see a 147 grain HST, 147 grain Ranger, Bonded 124's and 147's of that ilk not perform practically as well or on par with either the .40 or .45. As far as the morgue article above it must have not included the latest and greatest of the 9mm rounds we have today. Police forces have had great success with both Federal 115 +P+ and Winchester 127 +p+ in actual shootings, but I've left the speed deamons and settled on the new bonded 124's or 147's, rangers and HST's. I give the fact that 9mm is much more load dependent than either .40 or .45, and loadings have come along way since the FBI 115 grain Winchester Silvertip, but pick the right load and it is on par with either the .40 or .45, less recoil= faster rounds on target. I do agree with your bottom line and that handguns in general are not the best choice for immediate incapacitation and variables abound tremendously. VA posted some really good stuff concerning this topic as well. Oh, on a closing note, do you remember Mr. Cho? He was the deranged psychopath that shot and killed 32 people and wounded 17 others armed only with a Glock 19 and Walther .22

9mm Versus .45 Caliber: Does Size Really Matter? | Joe Barrett's Blog

0282 ? 4 Reasons Why I Am Switching from 45 ACP to 9mm and Why You Too Should Make the Change

http://www.usacarry.com/why-i-carry-a-9mm-handgun/

9mm Federal 147 Grain HST +P Clear Gel Test - Short Barrel - YouTube


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

TheLAGuy said:


> Thanks for the input VAMarine, you aren't as bad I once thought.
> 
> Playing aside, what full size Sig would you recommend? How much would one of these bad boys run me?


Like the man said, "No better friend, no worse enemy"

As for the guns, in .40 I would look at the 226, in .45 the 220.

Brand new, probably around $1K pending on model.

You're not a lefty are you?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TheLAGuy;285043key m said:


> *Placement is y friend, thats why range time is key IMO*. I hope I never have to use my range skills, and I'm sure no one does, but practice makes perfect.
> 
> Whats your take on Hornady defense ammo?
> 
> Like I stated earlier, I'm seriously considering another round. It makes sense not just to have a 9mm option, especially with how rare the rounds are. I'm thinking .45 TBH.


I absolutely agree and this is my take as well. However, carrying the most powerful caliber and load you can handle effectively goes hand in hand with this.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

TheLAGuy said:


> Do you have any 9mm?
> 
> Do you like the .45 over the .40 because it has more girth?


Yup......got me some 9mm's as well. I'm thinking that I have four of them.....maybe five. I need to check. 

I have huge hands, and rarely do I ever come across a gun that I can't handle. I do prefer double-stack semi-autos, compared to single-stack ones.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Broondog said:


> you will find that there are folks who will prefer one caliber over another, and some of those folks will live and breathe a round. the .45, .40, 9mm war will rage till the end of time!  Exactly
> 
> i personally think the .45acp round is overrated. yeah it's big, but it's slow. you could almost throw a rock faster. if i wanna put a big hole in a walking target and knock it down i will launch a .357 magnum at it. Umm,no.would you shoot a 125lb deer with an '06 or a 243?That metaphor just scratches the surface of real world ballistics in the non-military world.I'd also like to see the 357 gig,is he going to fall down like tv or get a big hole that means overpenetratin and possible collateral damage?
> 
> ...


 OK,beleive what you want.

Research ballistics,there are variables that can make a 9 spank a 45 and vice-versa.The 45 acp is not a wimp if you want,most just can't deal with the hit.That hit is also girlie compared to what a 45 will do-and you need a compensator.Now we're back in the overpenetration gig.Know the parameters of the situation and pick what's appropriate-115gr 9s are fine in 100 degree weather (basically),but in freezing weather it's a poor choice.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

denner said:


> Well, concerning the lack of sternum penetration and glancing off heavy bone is concerned, would you not agree it was poor bullet weight choice or design that was to blame as opposed to just all 9mm loadings? I'd like to know the actual round make and weight fired in those observations. I indeed dont see 9mm Nato glancing off bone or failing to penetrate a sternum within 200 yards. Nor do I see a 147 grain HST, 147 grain Ranger, Bonded 124's and 147's of that ilk not perform practically as well or on par with either the .40 or .45. As far as the morgue article above it must have not included the latest and greatest of the 9mm rounds we have today. Police forces have had great success with both Federal 115 +P+ and Winchester 127 +p+ in actual shootings, but I've left the speed deamons and settled on the new bonded 124's or 147's, rangers and HST's. I give the fact that 9mm is much more load dependent than either .40 or .45, and loadings have come along way since the FBI 115 grain Winchester Silvertip, but pick the right load and it is on par with either the .40 or .45, less recoil= faster rounds on target. I do agree with your bottom line and that handguns in general are not the best choice for immediate incapacitation and variables abound tremendously. VA posted some really good stuff concerning this topic as well. Oh, on a closing note, do you remember Mr. Cho? He was the deranged psychopath that shot and killed 32 people and wounded 17 others armed only with a Glock 19 and Walther .22
> 
> 9mm Versus .45 Caliber: Does Size Really Matter? | Joe Barrett's Blog
> 
> ...


That's why I included my caveat about never knowing how a given load is going to perform because there are just too many variables in shootings. I'm a firm believer of this fact. I think the reason for the case I mentioned was due to heavy muscle and fat on a large male, but frankly I don't know. But one could also allow for things like clothing, stuff in pockets or hung around necks, etc.

As I mentioned, I do carry a 9mm at times and my preferred loads are, in no order, Federal 124gr +P HST, Federal 147gr +P HST, and Gold Dot 124gr +P. I have others but these are my first choice loads. I know I don't want to get hit by any of them.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

SouthernBoy said:


> That's why I included my caveat about never knowing how a given load is going to perform because there are just too many variables in shootings. I'm a firm believer of this fact. I think the reason for the case I mentioned was due to heavy muscle and fat on a large male, but frankly I don't know. But one could also allow for things like clothing, stuff in pockets or hung around necks, etc.
> 
> As I mentioned, I do carry a 9mm at times and my preferred loads are, in no order, Federal 124gr +P HST, Federal 147gr +P HST, and Gold Dot 124gr +P. I have others but these are my first choice loads. I know I don't want to get hit by any of them.


I'm with you Southernboy, many, many, variables. I have an admiration for all three calibers as well.

Check out this true life shootout: Perp hit 17 times with a 45 and the ones that got him at the end were three head shots. I think i'm gonna ditch my pistol and start packing a 12 gauge w/ 1oz slugs. it ain't the movies folks.
http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2012/02/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008.aspx


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## Broondog (Feb 1, 2013)

i see the .45 crowd is tough here, just as everywhere. 

there are a zillion "case in points" that can be linked and tons of ballistic evidence to support and challenge every single rifle, handgun or shotgun round on the face of the planet. in the end it's the one that works for you that is the "end all" in your eye.

i think the .45 is overrated. that is my opinion (there are many like it, but this one is mine) and nothing will change that fact.

Southernboy.....others have stated this but i will reiterate, it's shot placement that really matters. if someone put a .22short derringer under my arm and fired into my ribcage i'd be just as dead as if the "venerable" .45 came straight in thru my sternum.

Rex.....i don't watch tv so maybe you could enlighten me. lol! i don't hunt deer but i do hunt coyote and both the .357 and the .06 are quite devastating to say the least. and i don't know about you but my winter loadout on my carry gun IS different than summer, alternating HP and FMJ for penetration of heavy coats and such.


in general, over penetration can be a problem no matter the round. we all like to think that we will be calm, cool and collected when the BG comes but in reality it will most likely be different. what we think is going to be a good, clean shot happens instead to go through the fleshy part of an arm or the neck and travels on to points unknown.

LAGuy thinks his range skills will matter. NOT! if he even gets a chance to aim he will be lucky. ANY of us could hope to be that lucky. and if we do get to aim our adrenaline will be pumping so hard that we will be shaking like a leaf in a hurricane making that clean shot an amazing feat of luck. 

i'm sure there is a percentage of the user base here who has had the displeasure of killing a man (military, LEO, psychopath) but how many actually looked them in the eye at the time? that would change a man i would think, and those few might be cool under pressure. the rest of us? i doubt it.

i apologize (a bit) for the rant, but LAGuy, take some advice please. i know you SoCal guys are a bit different, but before you go for another "man cannon" with more "girth", think about the end consequences of your apparent excitedness for the home defense scenario. do a little soul searching and maybe mature a little first. range time can be fun and games (safely) but busting a cap in the BG in your living room will likely change you forever.

just food for thought man.

keep your powder dry and stay safe!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

denner said:


> I'm with you Southernboy, many, many, variables. I have an admiration for all three calibers as well.
> 
> Check out this true life shootout: Perp hit 17 times with a 45 and the ones that got him at the end were three head shots. I think i'm gonna ditch my pistol and start packing a 12 gauge w/ 1oz slugs. it ain't the movies folks.
> Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008 - Article - POLICE Magazine


I was in a McDonald's a few months ago, late fall as I recall, when in walked two or three guys. One was a large man, perhaps over 6' tall and around 350 pounds. Looking at him from his side, I thought about what a handgun bullet would have to do to get to something vital in his chest. He had a fairly heavy coat on and the distance to his heart was probably a good foot and a half. I began to get a real appreciation of what it might require to take someone this size down if he was a BG bent on ending your days.

The folks on this thread who freely admit that there are just no real positive answers have got it right. One said something to the effect that the caliber wars will go on forever. He's probably right. As gun culture people who are very interested in self defense guns and loads, we are prone to always seeking the best of both of these items. But the fact is, there is no such thing. So it all boils down to what works best for the individual (someone also mentioned this), and what that individual has within him that will let him remain whole after the gun smoke has cleared.

The neighbor friend with whom I train on a regular basis (normally every two weeks) is a damned good shot and he has only been at this for maybe 3+ years. The man who trained him, another neighbor, is one of the best handgun defensive shooters I have ever encountered and a good friend, too. He is a deliberate man and not someone I would want to face in a gunfight if I was a BG.

So the gun and caliber/load are only half of the equation. The most important half is the person with that gun. Does he have the intestinal fortitude to use it against another human being? Is he going to hesitate, hoping that the threat will go away or is he going to beat the BG to the "draw" and use his weapons system to safe his skin? Good people don't like to hurt other people, be they evil or not. It's not something we want to do. Bad people, on the other hand, have little compunction, to hurt good people when it serves their wants and needs. And really bad people think nothing more about sending a round or three in to a good person than stepping on a bug. We don't have that in us and it can get us seriously injured or killed.

One poster talked about the extremes of a violent encounter and how the adrenaline rush and nerves could cause any number of misses or problems when you go to shooting. All of these factors weigh in if you ever have to pull your gun in yours or someone else's defense. Your best bet is to train and stay current.... with ammunition, guns, and techniques. Add to this a mindset that will see you through and you may have a chance to survive an extreme encounter. And that last one is something I haven't a clue how to train for with civilians.

These threads are very informative. Wading through the BS and the outlandish bias on some of them in order to get to valuable information can be a task (I'm thinking of another website with this). But take heart that there are good and decent folks here who want to help people along and offer their ideas and opinions. Out of this, we all gain something rich. Good job people.... keep it up.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Broondog said:


> i see the .45 crowd is tough here, just as everywhere.
> 
> there are a zillion "case in points" that can be linked and tons of ballistic evidence to support and challenge every single rifle, handgun or shotgun round on the face of the planet. in the end it's the one that works for you that is the "end all" in your eye.
> 
> ...


Jeez man, take it easy. I was just asking caliber preference and you got pretty excited. There's no busting caps in anyone, it was a simple question as I'm making another purchase within the next or so.....


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*TheLAGuy*;
I see your problem here as one of, well, semantics. That is, you tend to write things in the most inflammatory style possible.
You try really hard to "talk the talk," but at the same time it is pretty obvious that you have never "walked the walk." Thus, the things you write come across as foolishly flippant and dismissive, and also frequently somewhat unnecessarily aggressive.
I strongly suggest that you drop the pseudo-tough-guy language, because, to most of us, it makes you look silly. We are serious shooters, and seriously involved in learning to be good at self defense, but you seem, to many of us, to believe that you're a "heavy" in a Hollywood movie starring Bruce Willis-or maybe Jimmy Cagney. This attitude will not get you the friendly advice you seem to need. Instead, it will get you ignored.

I am full of admiration for VAMarine, for his patience in dealing with you.
For the benefit of your own learning, and for the rest of us, I suggest that you modify your writing technique and the terms you use.


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## TheLAGuy (Nov 28, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *TheLAGuy*;
> I see your problem here as one of, well, semantics. That is, you tend to write things in the most inflammatory style possible.
> You try really hard to "talk the talk," but at the same time it is pretty obvious that you have never "walked the walk." Thus, the things you write come across as foolishly flippant and dismissive, and also frequently somewhat unnecessarily aggressive.
> I strongly suggest that you drop the pseudo-tough-guy language, because, to most of us, it makes you look silly. We are serious shooters, and seriously involved in learning to be good at self defense, but you seem, to many of us, to believe that you're a "heavy" in a Hollywood movie starring Bruce Willis-or maybe Jimmy Cagney. This attitude will not get you the friendly advice you seem to need. Instead, it will get you ignored.
> ...


Dealing with me?????? I didn't mean to take that much time out of his day to respond to my simple questions being a newbie. I'm asking questions as I'd love to learn from you guys who have a lot more experience.


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## XD40inAVL (Feb 1, 2013)

I really like the 40 as a sweet spot between the power of a 45 and the mag capacity of a 9.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Let's keep it nice, guys. Caliber wars get nasty sometimes. Let's try to keep this on point instead of directing comments at members here please...

We all have our favorite rounds/calibers... Nothing wrong with that. Newbies are probably better off going with 9mm. Once you get some experience, choose whatever you like... Tons of research on the subject, and even then, there are tons of different opinions.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Broondog,Ya kind of lost me on the tv thing.My analogy on the deer stands for pretty much anything,match the load to the game whatever it is.Shoot a 125lb deer with a std '06 load and you'll be tracking it because he doesn't know yet anything but a mosqito hit him.It blows right through fast and it's surprizeing how far one will go with a lung or heart hit.A 200lb deer will drop with the same round or not go far at all.


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