# Reloading Cautions and Pitfalls



## Viscomm

Happy New Year!

I have two revolvers and shoot only .38 Special ammo in my one-a-week practice sessions. Through bulk purchases and using vouchers, etc. I can get the cost of a 130 gram FMJ cartridge down to $.31 but even that is pretty pricey on a pension. I have however been saving the once-shot brass, usually Federal or UMC.

For Christmas my (not currently active-duty) U.S. Marine son bought me a basic Lee .38 Special reloading kit, #90257. I sat down over the holidays and knocked out the primers and used 0000 steel wool to shine the cases. I assume that at a minimum - beyong buying new primers, powder and bullets - I will need a primer (is "pocket" the right term?) cleaner and a can of case lube.

So how do I proceed?

The Lee chart calls for HS6 powder for a 130 gram jacketed bullet. What is HS6? Is that the only powder I can use? The little dipper that came with the kit is marked .5 but there is a powder "grains" listed for various bullets? So if it lists HS6 at 7.0 grains, how is that measured? Surely it can't mean 14 dippers (.5 x 14 = 7.0) for each cartridge - or can it? There was a comment on a reloading supplies website that talked about "dipping vs. scooping" the powder. Also, it seems that the Federal and UMC brass is just a snitch different in length. Does the brass length need to be absolutely identical? Beyond that, any advice? I find the Lee website a bit thin on details and most reloading videos concentrate on reloading stations.

Finally, I am very concerned about not only the hand loading part (the idea would be to keep my hand and fingers, thank you) but also shooting the reload. My "big" gun is a .357 Ruger so it is pretty robust. But the little gun is a Ruger LCR rated for +P and I wonder what the worst case would be if it encountered a reload problem. Given my newbie status and obvious concerns, should I even be trying this?

Don't worry about holding back. Please give me your honest opinion - my wife has already :-(

Best regards,

Robert


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## deputy125

first off......CONGRATS!!!!!

i have a soft spot for the old classic lee loaders. A fine minialist tool that produces good ammo. Takes up minimal room and all that is required is a hard surface and hammer...........

HS6 is a specific powder offered by hodgdon powder company. Your .5cc dipper isjust that-----a dipper. Your supplied chart has recomendations for specific dippers with specific powders. The dipper is a volume measure as opposed to a weight measure. If you want to use different powders, i suggest you purchase the Lee modern reloading book as it has many powders and bullet weights listed as well as corresponding .cc dippers. Additional dippers can be purchased if you want to expand

otherwise, just stickwith the supplied chart and dipper you have. in this case, one dipper full (i dip into the powder....never scoop.......and then take a card and level it with the dipper rim) is equal to 7 grains of HS6 powder by weight. Therefore, one dipper will charge one case with 7 grains of HS6 powder. This is an avg. A check with a scale frequently shows it to be a bit less.

Grains refers to a unit of weight here....not kernals or flakes of powder.

to see what your .5cc dipper will do with other powders, here is a chart http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

reloading charts will show a minimum load in grains and a max load in grains for a paticular powder with a paticular bullet. The goal is to keep the dipper amount between that minimun and max.

you are going to have fun! Read the instructions, and again i suggest you purchase a lee reloading book. I seat bullet depth the same as factory.......just set the tool and lock it in.

at priming time, set your primer, then take a pane of glass (picture off the wall will do) and set the primed case on it and check for wobble to make sure the primeris set deep enough. if not this will cause cylinder binding on rotation. Don't be afraid to set that primer in that pocket with a little bit of force. You will on occasion set a primer off so wear glasses............you wil get the feel for it and it will no longer be a problem.

there are several youtube videos available.......here are two.....have your volume on....






by the way........starting out i chamfered with a pocket knife, and used crisco for case lube.......just a half-drop on a finger will do for several cases.........DO NOT GET IN A HURRY----THERE IS NO getting in a hurry in reloading.


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## gmaske

deputy125 has hit all the important points and does a great job of explaining things. I was in the process of making the same post but he types faster.
Here are some good links to some inexpensive equipment that will make reloading easier and a lot more fun.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=484416
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=480380
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=807734
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=418312
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=712103
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=943305
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=566971
All the above stuff is good basic equipment that works and will get the job done right. A reloading manual is a must followed by a powder scale. The rest you can mix and match as your needs grow. I also cast my own practice bullets which adds to the savings. There is a very good chapter in the Lee Second Addition loading manual on the subject.

More questions??????.....Ask away! :smt023

Here is a picture of my reloading setup. This press is AWESOME and really not that expensive. It is called a turret press and automaticly rotates the dies in to position one after the other.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=814175


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## dosborn

gmaske said:


> deputy125 has hit all the important points and does a great job of explaining things. I was in the process of making the same post but he types faster.
> Here are some good links to some inexpensive equipment that will make reloading easier and a lot more fun.
> 
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=484416
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=480380
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=807734
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=418312
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=712103
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=943305
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=566971
> All the above stuff is good basic equipment that works and will get the job done right. A reloading manual is a must followed by a powder scale.


+1

Nice set up gmaske! I'm still working on my area.

Viscomm, I would reccomend the scale and ditch the dippers. Every reloader must have a scale anyways.

I found a book that has helped me TONS. It's from Lyman and it's the third edition, but there may be a newer one. You can also find great things at yard sales. The scale in the pic was $10 and the ABC's was less than a $. I got a set of carbide RCBS .40/10mm for $25 from a buddy too. The press is new but I don't mind buying used equipment here and there if it's in good shape. As long as it's safe and works.


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## The_Vigilante

You don't really need to use case lube for a straight-walled case but it's no big deal if you do.


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## dosborn

The_Vigilante said:


> You don't really need to use case lube for a straight-walled case but it's no big deal if you do.


If the dies are not carbide, I would reccomend case lube.


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## deputy125

for the lee loader, when they say it needs force in resizing straight wall cases----they ain't kidding. 

This is a totally different animal from reloading dies and a press in function. 

the lee loader by many accounts is old technology, slow, obselete, and yesterday's news compared to a press and dies. But it is inexpensive, requires no dedicated bench to mount a press, and can produce good ammo without all the accessories for those on a budget. You can store everything in a tool box with minimal fuss for storage if space is at a premium. Take it anywhere to reload as long as you can pound.

i have presses that i use. but i still use the classic lee loader exclusively for some calibers such as the 308.....not because i have to, but because the 308 produced is very accurate and i see no point in changing over to dies.


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## gmaske

The Lee loader got me started and it made safe ammo. I was ready to up-grade pretty quick though. I never bothered with case lube doing 38's and 357's. It most likely would have made it a bit easier. I bought an RCBS Partner press and took a big plunge on their 10.10 scale in pretty short order. That scale was a big stetch for me back then but it has remained were as most everything else has been replaced with better equipement. In my opinion there isn't a better scale on the market. I still have the Partner but it is now back in its box and stored away. If Viscomm Bob (Robert) is interested and wants to go past the Lee Loader I might be willing to part with that Partner Press and make him a deal he can't refuse..........:watching:


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## Viscomm

Thanks to all for the insight and advice. I am starting to feel more comfortable now that I have some basic information but questions keep coming up.

My biggest and continuing concern is having to use a hammer to seat the bullet. Hammering on the cartridge to size it, although not very elegant, would be acceptable. But there is something about beating on something with gunpowder in it that scares me. Would it make sense to buy a single-stage press ... just from a safety standpoint? I love riding my motorcycle and would hate to lose some fingers just because I wasn't willing to spend some money.

I was looking at the Lee website and saw a breech lock kit. Looks pretty substantial and complete but what does "breech lock" refer to? Would this be a good choice? Also, is the purpose of a turret design to reload a single cartridge from start to finish - as opposed to doing each step seperately to a group - like deprime all, size all, reprime all, etc?

Finally, do you have favorite a supplier who will have all the consumables I need in-stock? I can find powder here and bullets there but no Winchester SP primers anywhere. If I really get into reloading I can take the time to find gun shows or other sources with rock-bottom prices. But for my first adventure, absolute best price is not the object. I just need to do it right. 

I really appreciate the time you are taking with me. And as suggested, I promise to buy the Lee reloading manual and take my time.

Best regards,

Robert


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## deputy125

as far as a supplier, the biggest pain with internet ordering on powder and primers is the "hazmat fees" which will eat you alive if you don't order in quanity. Some of us local reloaders get together a cpl of times a year and go in together on a large order to split up the fees and reduce costs........other than that, it will continue to be a search and ye shall find game.....small pistol primers were sold out in my area this past weekend.......but patience is a virture as they will be back. I had bought a thousand the previous month.

if you study the lee loader, you will see that the primer is in a cavity at time of bullet seat to prevent contact......and when you seat the bullet you are very very lightly tapping the bullet in place and not pounding like you do when you are resizing the case.The lee loader has been in production for decades and if it was an unsafe product it would had been removed from the market long ago.

i'm not familar with the new lee breech lock as i have the older challenger version but it looks simple and straight forward and similar as in the turret removal on the lee turret press which i also use. the lee turret is a "semi progressive" and with 3 strokes of the lever you produce a loaded round of 38 ammo.

the lee loader, single stage press, and turret press will all produce good ammo. which is better for your needs hinges on how much you want to spend vs how fast you want your production rate of ammo and your available reloading area for the equipment.......When i got first press, i mounted it to a board and then "C" clamped it to the dinner table......needless to say the wife was not thrilled.....

demonstration videos are available on the lee site.


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## Viscomm

Thanks for the info everybody. I have to admit you must be "right" ... if the basic Lee reloaders hurt people they would be off the market. But, I remember a comic strip in which there was a guy named Joe who walked around with a black cloud over his head and everything bad that could happen ... happened to him. In my family, they call it "The Schneider Luck." So I decided to err on the side of caution and "bite the bullet!"

I actually lucked out today. I was driving around looking at new cars and passed a little, concrete block building with a sign that read "Shooters' Supplies." I went in and the proprietor, his wife and a bunch of guys wearing LaRue Tactical hats were very friendly and informative. I ended up buying a Lee 50th Anniversary Reloading Kit with the breech lock Challenger O frame press and accessories. I bought carbide 3-die sets in 38 Spl and 45 Auto along with the loading tray and 1000 Winchester SP primers. I also got Alliant and Hodgdon reloading manuals. Once I decide on a Hodgdon powder (they seem to go with Winchester primers) I'll get some 158 gr LSWC bullets and have at it. My son already settled on Alliant Unique powder with CCI primers for his 45 but hopefully after 1000 rounds each we can come to a common ground and then include son#2 in 9mm Luger.

So now I can put both the Lee 38 Spl and 45 Auto basic kits on eBay 

Next Sunday my son and I are going to spend the afternoon reloading. I'll let you know how it turns out. Again, many thanks.

Robert


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## Viscomm

One more quick question ...

What do y'all think about doing a final, factory crimp on 38 Spl and 45 ACP cartridges? From what I have read on the Internet, this last step is only necessary for large and long rifle cartridges. Yet, Lee sells carbide dies for both of the calibers I am interested in reloading.

I am not opposed to doing the extra step if it appears there are good reasons to do so. 

Thanks,

Robert


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## deputy125

inever used a factory crimp die......

would be interested myself to hear opinions about this 4th die for handgun calibers...........


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## dosborn

deputy125 said:


> inever used a factory crimp die......
> 
> would be interested myself to hear opinions about this 4th die for handgun calibers...........


I do not use one and have had no problems with the seat/taper die doing it's job.


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## gmaske

I've just started using the Lee factory crimp die and I flat out love em. The biggest improvement is with my 45 ACP but I like what it does for my 38's & 357's also. First off I use a four station turret press so with pistol dies I still have an extra station. Instead of futzing around trying to get the combination bullet seating and crimp die adjusted just right, so the bullet is seated and it doesn't deform the bullet nose, caused by to much crimp to early, I just seat the bullet with that die. (How's that for a run on sentence!) I crimp with the crimping die in the last station on the press. This die also post sizes the casing. This is real important with auto loading pistol. If you cast your own bullets or use cast bullets they are usually .001" larger than jacketed bullets. Even with jacketed bullets you will get a bulge in the shell in the area were the bullet is seated. The factory crimp die irons that out for the most part. I have had a lot of problems with soft pointed hollow point bullets in the past because the bullet was still seating as the crimp was being applied. The nose of the bullet would take on the shape of the seating plug. That isn't a problem anymore. Another thing it will do is give you an almost stupid heavy roll crimp if you need it for magnum loads. It will also create a cantilure on a bullet were there isn't one as it crimps if need be.

Another way to look at it is this. When you go to set the seating and crimp die, first you set the bullet to the right depth. Then you back out the seating plug and adjust your die for the right crimp. Then you run in your seating plug while the cartridge is still in the die to reset the plug. So what do you get when you seat & crimp the next bullet....Usually the bullet isn't seated to that exact same depth so you either have to screw in the plug a bit more or back it out a tad. No big deal except you have a few rounds that aren't at the spec's you were aiming for. Now with the factory crimp die you just set the bullet depth and your done. Then you set the crimp you want and your done. It is so very simple and there are no weird rounds. Another thing to consider is the fact that unless you trim all your brass every time no two shells are the same exact length so you will get some diffrences in nose deformation and crimp with the combination die. This isn't so using the factory crimp die.


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## dosborn

Not trying to argue in this post, just give my opinion based on my readings and experience (which is not a lot BTW).



gmaske said:


> No big deal except you have a few rounds that aren't at the spec's you were aiming for. Now with the factory crimp die you just set the bullet depth and your done. Then you set the crimp you want and your done. It is so very simple and there are no weird rounds.


When I am setting up my dies I know that I am going to have to pull some bullets. I will end up wasting nothing, not even a primer. A bullet puller is a must anyway.



gmaske said:


> Another thing to consider is the fact that unless you trim all your brass every time no two shells are the same exact length so you will get some diffrences in nose deformation and crimp with the combination die. This isn't so using the factory crimp die.


From what I understand no matter what kind of crimp you use will be exact unless the cases are all the same length.

Correct me here if I am wrong. This is the way I understood it.:smt1099


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## gmaske

The Factory crimp die resizes the shell again so you get more uniformity that way, plus, the bullet is gripped better. The crimp may not be exactly the same because of the diffrence in shell length but it's dang close. Really you just have to use one once to really get it. I'll try to post some pictures of some of the diffrences a bit later. I'll fire up the camera and see what I can come up with.

dosborn wrote:
"When I am setting up my dies I know that I am going to have to pull some bullets."

This is the biggest reason I went to a turret press with replacable turrets. The only adjustments I need to make are powder drop and seating depth if I change bullet type. It is a true pleasure to just drop in the right turret for the caliber I'm loading and go.


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## dosborn

gmaske said:


> The Factory crimp die resizes the shell again so you get more uniformity that way, plus, the bullet is gripped better. The crimp may not be exactly the same because of the diffrence in shell length but it's dang close. Really you just have to use one once to really get it. I'll try to post some pictures of some of the diffrences a bit later. I'll fire up the camera and see what I can come up with.


Fair enough. My ears and eyes are open.

Again, not trying to play devils advocate here, but when you resize with the projectile in place, I would assume (yeah, I know) that it would take a lot of pressure and that would not be good for the case.

I am trying to visualize the process. I may have to buy the die to see.


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## dosborn

gmaske said:


> This is the biggest reason I went to a turret press with replacable turrets. The only adjustments I need to make are powder drop and seating depth if I change bullet type. It is a true pleasure to just drop in the right turret for the caliber I'm loading and go.


I am using the Hornady LNL AP so it should be a similar set-up. When I change caliber I change the dies (in bushings for LNL quick change), shell plate and powder drop. If I go from .45 to .40 I do have to change a few primer feed parts.


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## gmaske

dosborn said:


> Fair enough. My ears and eyes are open.
> 
> Again, not trying to play devils advocate here, but when you resize with the projectile in place, I would assume (yeah, I know) that it would take a lot of pressure and that would not be good for the case.
> 
> I am trying to visualize the process. I may have to buy the die to see.


Well let's see. When you set the bullet on top the case to be seated you try to get it as streight as possible but in reality it is slightly cocked. So, when the plug pushes the bullet in to the case it can and will deform the case mouth slightly so that the bullet might not be perfect on the case axis. The crimp die brings everything back in to alignment and reforms the case around the base of the bullet. I suspect it sizes the base of the bullet a bit smaller in the process too. Especially cast bullets.

Another point that might need to be made is that the Factory crimp die never touchs the bullet, just the case.


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## gmaske

dosborn said:


> I am using the Hornady LNL AP so it should be a similar set-up. When I change caliber I change the dies (in bushings for LNL quick change), shell plate and powder drop. If I go from .45 to .40 I do have to change a few primer feed parts.


True enough. If I go from 45 ACP to 357 I have to change the shell plate and the Lee safety prime system but it is so simple to do it's almost stupid. Before I switched I had a Lee Pro 1000 and it was a great press but a real pain in the shorts to switch to a diffrent caliber.


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## dosborn

gmaske said:


> Well let's see. When you set the bullet on top the case to be seated you try to get it as streight as possible but in reality it is slightly cocked. So, when the plug pushes the bullet in to the case it can and will deform the case mouth slightly so that the bullet might not be perfect on the case axis. The crimp die brings everything back in to alignment and reforms the case around the base of the bullet. I suspect it sizes the base of the bullet a bit smaller in the process too. Especially cast bullets.
> 
> Another point that might need to be made is that the Factory crimp die never touchs the bullet, just the case.


I will dig further into this subject and may buy the die to give it a try. I guess my thought is this, if it works fine like it is, why change?? I could see a seperate crimp for .38 sp, .357, .44 ect., but not for 9,40 and 45.


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## gmaske

dosborn said:


> I will dig further into this subject and may buy the die to give it a try. I guess my thought is this, if it works fine like it is, why change?? I could see a seperate crimp for .38 sp, .357, .44 ect., but not for 9,40 and 45.


All the auto loads you site index on the case mouth when chambered so the diameter of the case mouth is critical. Over crimp and it could slip past the step in the chamber. Under crimp and it might not seat all the way in causing a failure to lock on the slide of the pistol. That is a demention I'm just beginning to really take note of.
Food for thought! :watching:

In another thread I stated that, in effect, this factory crimp thing is fairly new. Folks have been doing it the other way for a very long time so, there ain't nothin wrong with it. I just think it makes a better more factory like round.


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## dosborn

gmaske said:


> All the auto loads you site index on the case mouth when chambered so the diameter of the case mouth is critical. Over crimp and it could slip past the step in the chamber. Under crimp and it might not seat all the way in causing a failure to lock on the slide of the pistol. That is a demention I'm just beginning to really take note of.
> Food for thought! :watching:
> 
> In another thread I stated that, in effect, this factory crimp thing is fairly new. Folks have been doing it the other way for a very long time so, there ain't nothin wrong with it. I just think it makes a better more factory like round.


Understood.:smt023


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## SaltyDog

I also went the factory crimp route on my Loadmaster and it was simple to set up and gave a smooth crimp. 

from Lee " Carbide Factory Crimp explanation 

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need."

I like it so much I bought one for my 6.8mm rifle rounds.


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## gmaske

SaltyDog said:


> I also went the factory crimp route on my Loadmaster and it was simple to set up and gave a smooth crimp.
> 
> from Lee " Carbide Factory Crimp explanation
> 
> While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.
> 
> The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.
> 
> The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need."
> 
> I like it so much I bought one for my 6.8mm rifle rounds.


I'm glad you went and found that and posted it. It sure says it better than I tried to say it.


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## TOF

I loaded many thousands of cartridges without the factory crimp die and they all went boom. I decided to try one anyway and liked what I saw although it didn't seem to make a geat deal of difference in performance. It did reduce deformation of 38/357 SJFP and SJHP's by seperating the seating and crimping process. I then decided to lower cost by using lead bullets which are typicaly .001" larger than copper. All of a sudden I found one more definite reason for using the FC in that it brought the .001" oversize case back down to what it should be.

I like the factory crimp enough that I used it as partial justification for purchasing a Lee Loadmaster system which accomodates all 4 dies at once.

I don't know exactly what caused the improvement in velocity consistance but a year back I was happy if delta V was on the order of 35 FPS. I am now consistantly achieving deltas of 8 to 16 FPS with my .45ACP's. I am also achieving 3/8" to 5/8" 5 shot groups at 15 yards with the resultant .45 ammo. Haven't checked the 9 or 357 lately but expect they have improved also.

I believe the FC die had some to do with the overall improvment and intend to continue using them for all calibers I load.

If you intend to load soft nose SJFP or SJHP bullets for your .38 you will want to obtain a flat face insert for your seating die. The standard Lee die has a rounded cavity and it will deform the bullet even when crimp is performed secondarily. I simply purchased a second standard insert and ground one flat. I believe Lee will sell different configurations but didn't verify they will.

Good luck and have fun

tumbleweed


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## Viscomm

Again, thanks for all the input. It has given me the confidence to drop the cash and do "it" the right way.

Tomorrow my (U.S. Marine) son and I will reload our first 45 ACP cartridges. I bought all the tools right down to a digital caliper. I tested and understand how the various Lee sub-systems work so I feel confident we can proceed to reload safely (you guys already know me ... I just want to be safe ... I like my fingers).

We plan to do several reloads (maybe a magazines-worth) at several levels - up to 90% of maximum - and go to the range and try them. Reliable/accurate - a good approach? I did buy the 4th "factory neck/crimp die" to put the round back to factory specs.

But I have to let you know that I have discovered a major flaw in the workflow using the Lee press. In short, you cannot use the combination deprime/sizing die capability if you need to subsequently trim the case length. If you use the press to deprime, the sizing action makes it impossible to insert the case trimming tool.

As a workaround, I intend to measure the case lengths of all brass before I use the press. If they meet spec, I will deprime and size on the press and then proceed to shining and primer pocket cleaning. If they are longer than spec, I will manually deprime the cases (glad I didn't throw the hammer away), trim and chamfer them, and then use the press to resize them. Somewhat more complicated and time-consuming but, hey, I'm retired. Following those steps - the cases will get their primer pocket cleaned and the brass shined and lubed.

Unless I am just a newbie with a brain-f*rt, I think I am right. Comments?

Robert


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## gmaske

Ah! But you can trim after you deprime and size! As the case clears the die just stop at that point and remove the case from the shell plate and do your trimming, champering, and primer pocket cleaning. Then reinsert the case in the shell plate and continue the downward stroke of the press and seat the primer. Or......! You can NOT install the primer on that down stroke and do your trimming and cleaning and then just do a half stroke....Just enough to set and seat the primer.
Ya gotta think outside the box! :smt033

P.S.
What kind of trimming tool are you using? If it is the Lee system just measure the first one that actually gets trimmed to make sure the stub is the correct length. The first one I got was cutting the shells short so I got another one. If you have a short or long pin Lee will replace it for free if you send them the old one. By the way the Lee Zip Trim works great. I bought the universal shell plate jaws for it. Once you get the hang of it it is quick and sure.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=515804
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=352653

P.P.S.
After rereading your last post it dawned on me that you are having the same problem that I had. The guide that is suppose to slip inside the case mouth is over sized and doesn't fit. I chucked mine up in a drill and slowly sanded it down until it fit.....BUT.....You should return it to Lee and tell them it is over sized because it SHOULD fit inside a resized shell. All the other ones that I have for diffrent calibers do fit. I'll bet it is the one for the 45 ACP.


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## Viscomm

Thanks for the reply.

Your PPS was correct. But given all the time, effort and money I have gone through so far, I hate to start modifying Lee tools with sandpaper. If you feel that the (you were correct, 45 ACP) trimming tool is too big and should fit into resized brass, then I will call Lee and go that route. As I wrote earlier, identifying the oversized brass would be a logical first step anyway and I have found very few (shot once) shells that have stretched. So the workaround is not too difficult. But after a couple of reloads, that may change.

I'll let you know about my first efforts.

Robert


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## gmaske

Viscomm said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Your PPS was correct. But given all the time, effort and money I have gone through so far, I hate to start modifying Lee tools with sandpaper. If you feel that the (you were correct, 45 ACP) trimming tool is too big and should fit into resized brass, then I will call Lee and go that route. As I wrote earlier, identifying the oversized brass would be a logical first step anyway and I have found very few (shot once) shells that have stretched. So the workaround is not too difficult. But after a couple of reloads, that may change.
> 
> I'll let you know about my first efforts.
> 
> Robert


 You will most often find that the shells will end up needing a trim after they are resized. The theory is that once a cartridge has been fired it has stretched out to fill the guns chamber. It stretches more in with than length. As you resize the brass it is forced back to its original shape but since the brass has flowed somewhat during the firing process it doesn't go back to its original position. It ends up that the shell gets longer after sizing because that is the only direction it can easily go in. With low pressure rounds it takes a lot of cycles to get very much movement though. I have some really old 357 brass that I guess I cycled threw my revolver maybe a dozen times. Every time it was reloaded it was a near max powder charge of Winchester 296 powder. I never checked or trimmed them as I didn't have nor could I afford the equipment at that time. I just went through and checked them for the first time and maybe one in ten needed a slight trimming, The rest were still under maximum length. Since I now pick up alot of brass that others have left behind I do check them all. Once I know they are correct I won't bother to check them again for a number of cycles threw the gun and the press.
Rifle brass on the other hand is subject to much higher pressures and needs to be checked every time after resizing.


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## TOF

To me, trimming cases is a PITA and I just don't do it unless necessary. The only cases I found it to be necessary on was brand spanking new Winchester cases for my .357Mag. I bought new thinking they would be the best choice. Wrong big time. I will not purchase 1 more new Winchester case. They were not only not per spec on length the end was cut on a slant. Pure junk.

I have not found a need to trim any 9MM, .40S&W or .45ACP cases. Mixed brands or single head stamp all get the same treatment from me. I have successfully loaded something in excess of 30,000 rounds without trimming length. 

My recommendation is to, if you don't have enough cases already, purchase a batch of once fired single head stamp cases from an online place such as Brassman. If all I could find or wished to pay for was mixed head-stamp I still would not trim for the 45.

Semi Auto bullets do not have crimp cannelures and only need the flare straightened out. The Factory crimp die will not over-crimp if the case is a smidgen long but will assure adequate crimp and final overall sizing.

Good luck and enjoy.

tumbleweed


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## SaltyDog

gmaske said:


> I'm glad you went and found that and posted it. It sure says it better than I tried to say it.


I couldn't explain it either - that's why I went there:smt033


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## SaltyDog

Viscomm said:


> But I have to let you know that I have discovered a major flaw in the workflow using the Lee press. In short, you cannot use the combination deprime/sizing die capability if you need to subsequently trim the case length. If you use the press to deprime, the sizing action makes it impossible to insert the case trimming tool.
> 
> As a workaround, I intend to measure the case lengths of all brass before I use the press. If they meet spec, I will deprime and size on the press and then proceed to shining and primer pocket cleaning. If they are longer than spec, I will manually deprime the cases (glad I didn't throw the hammer away), trim and chamfer them, and then use the press to resize them. Somewhat more complicated and time-consuming but, hey, I'm retired. Following those steps - the cases will get their primer pocket cleaned and the brass shined and lubed.
> 
> Unless I am just a newbie with a brain-f*rt, I think I am right. Comments?
> 
> Robert


Viscomm I have the Lee Loadmaster and the workaround I did for about $20 was to order a new turret and the Lee universal decapping die. It does not resize - it just decaps.

So now I just change to that turret and decap all my spent rounds - throw them in the tumbler - and resize on the zip trim. I only size my rifle (6.8mm) rounds as I have found like TOF that the straight pistol casings do not change much from one reload to another. I just inspect them and reload em. No problems so far.


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## Viscomm

Well, we had quite a day. Never did complete one round. Kind of a bummer.

My son also has a .45 ACP Lee case trimmer and neither of ours will fit in a resized case. Sure we could trim BEFORE resizing. But since the resizing step squeezes the diameter of the brass back to spec and pushes excess material toward the mouth, wouldn't it make sense to trim the case length AFTER resizing? No can do. Maybe trimming needs to be done after flaring the case mouth (?)

But we forged ahead ... cleaning, lubing, depriming, resizing, checking case length, primer pocket cleaning, repriming and flaring - and prepared over 100 cases. The next step, charging the case, was not fun and we eventually just gave up and stopped for the day. Here are the details.

We wanted to load .45 ACP using CCI300 primers, Alliant Unique powder and Speer 230 grain TMJ RN bullets. The Alliant book calls for a max charge in grains of 6.5 and we wanted to start 10% low so we settled on 5.8 grains.

Our Lee Perfect Powder Measure required a conversion from weight to volume. The Lee documentation indicated a Volume Measure Density (VMD) of .1092 for Unique. We multiplied the VMD by the charge in grains and came up with .63 cc. We adjusted the metering rod to .5+1 turn+3 on the thimple. We conditioned the Powder Measure with a hopper with a of powder. We zeroed the Lee Safety Powder Scale and set it for 5.8 grains. Then we dumped a measured charge into the pan and weighed it. Not even close!

By the time we fudged the metering rod setting on the Powder Measure to where it would dispense 5.8 grains (as measured on the Powder Scale), the rod indicated almost TWICE the volume we calculated. Neither Dan or I knew what to trust but since we did not have anything with which to verify the accuracy of the Powder Scale - we just hung it up for the day.

Any ideas? Could the published VMD be wrong? Is the simple Lee Powder Scale an accurate device? Am I setting the metering rod on the Powder Measure incorrectly? I do not want to spend another $40 on a digital scale but maybe I can find someone who has a digital scale that has proven to be correct and do a comparison or create a couple simple calibration weights - small ones for pistol use.

Final question - The maximum overall length spec for a .45 ACP jacketed, round-nose round is 1.275 inches. The loaded length of a brand-new, Remington FMJ round-nose round is 1.263 inches. Assuming the case length is correct at .898 inches, what is the "short" length limit for a reloaded round? If the bullet is pressed too far into the case, the pressure will increase. So, is there a safe "short" spec to go along with the overall maximum length spec?

Again, thanks for the help. Someday you will be proud of me 

Best regards,

Robert


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## TOF

1. Don't worry about more than one step at a time.

2. If using once fired cases don't worry about trimming till you get other items under control. It just isn't that important for a .45.

3. Size and remove old primers then clean the cases. Case cleaning is not critical either, just make certain there are not dirt chunks and rocks in them. Primer pocket cleaning is not necessary either.

4. Prime a few cases. If it goes well prime the 100 mentioned.

5. "Critical!" Set powder scale on a reasonably level surface and verify zero. With empty pan in place and slider plus ball set to zero the scale should point to zero. If it doesn't adjust the knurled brass nut to increase or decrease set point. The scale must be checked for zero whenever moved to a new location or if in storage for any time.

6. Determine powder charge in grain weight from load chart. The chart used to select powder charge should also state overall length for the type and weight bullet used. If it doesn't find a chart that does before proceeding because the cavity remaining at a given length determines how much powder is needed. 1.275" is maximum physical design limit. Proper overall length will vary by bullet type and powder chart used. Your press will most likely hold +or- .003 inches which is good enough.

7. Set your powder measure to yield weight desired not volume.
Note: Lee charts are old and powders may have been reformulated since the charts were written so confirm what a given volume equals in weight if you use the dippers. Some powders match the Lee volume/weight charts and some don't. Use weight as your standard. If properly zeroed the Lee scale is accurate. It must have the steel ball and the powder pan in place to zero properly.

Good luck

tumbleweed


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## Viscomm

*To GMASKE*

I contacted Lee and, based on their response, did exactly what you suggested using 400 sandpaper and a very fine abrasive cloth. The tool now fits cases after they have been resized. Length guide problem solved.

So far as the powder is concerned, I rezeroed the Lee balance beam scale, calculated the volume of 5.8 grains of Unique (.63 cc's), dumped the powder and weighed. NO DICE - way light. So I started increasing the powder dispenser until I got a consistent 5.8 grains. I figure the scale has to be accurate or a whole bunch of folks would be missing fingers! Ended up with .85 cc's equalling 5.8 grains. Dispense accuracy weight was dead-on 12 of 15 times.

Getting through the details slowly but surely. Plan on finishing a bunch of .45 ACP 230 grain TMJ's tomorrow. Any final suggestions before I "bite the bullet?"

Best regards,

Robert


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## TOF

Viscomm said:


> So far as the powder is concerned, I rezeroed the Lee balance beam scale, calculated the volume of 5.8 grains of Unique (.63 cc's), dumped the powder and weighed. NO DICE - way light. So I started increasing the powder dispenser until I got a consistent 5.8 grains. I figure the scale has to be accurate or a whole bunch of folks would be missing fingers! Ended up with .85 cc's equalling 5.8 grains. Dispense accuracy weight was dead-on 12 of 15 times.
> 
> Getting through the details slowly but surely. Plan on finishing a bunch of .45 ACP 230 grain TMJ's tomorrow. Any final suggestions before I "bite the bullet?"
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Robert


You might con some stranger into taking the first shot! :anim_lol:
We all had feelings of inadequacy prior to the first round doing what it was supposed to. Have fun.

I am curious as to how you are measuring "Volume" of powder. Is it with a dipper or a dialed value on the powder dispenser?


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## Viscomm

*Measuring Volume vs. Weight*

The volume in cc's is being determined using the Lee tables, and measured and dispensed by a Lee Powder Measure. The Lee .5cc dipper, used in a dip vs. scoop scenario, seems a little iffy to me.

According to the Lee table, the weight of one grain of Alliant Unique powder represents a volume of .1092cc. Multiply .1092 times my required 5.8 grains and you get .63cc. Unforunately, when I set the Powder Measure for .63cc and, after measuring several charges on the Powder Scale, they were all light. Following much trial and error (and putting a great deal of faith in the Lee [balance beam] powder scale), the Powder Measure ended up at .85cc. I did a test charge on 15 cases and 12 came in right on-target. Two initial charges were obviously high and one was a bit low.

Since I have decided to load everything 10% below maximum, I think I will be OK. My next hurdle is understanding the relationship between the maximum overall length, minimum overall length and case length when seating a bullet in a .45 ACP application. I mean, if the length of my case after resizing is within spec, wouldn't I be correct if I seated the (230 grain TMJRN) bullet so it results in an overall length that matches a brand-new factory cartridge?

Robert


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## TOF

Not all brand new Factory cartridges are the same length.
Not all RN and or HP bullets of a given weight are the same length.
Each brand of Factory cartridge uses a powder blend of it's own.

The "round" nose of one brand bullet can be different than that of a different brand. They are sort of round not necessarily true round.

It's like Ford vs. Chevy vs. dodge. They may perform the same basic function but are not necessarily the same.

The differences are why you hear the recommendation to shoot a reasonably large quantity of your carry ammo to prove it is reliable in your particular weapon.

The key to overall length is the load chart you use when selecting powder charge. The quantity of powder the chart lists is based on the cavity in which the powder resides. If the bullet is pressed too far in the cavity will be smaller than what the charge is designed for resulting in excess pressure. Not far enough and you have less pressure than desired.

Once you become a bit more experienced with loading you might try adjusting chart values but for now I suggest you stick with published numbers rather than measuring brand X.

Good luck.


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## SaltyDog

Viscomm I had the same problem with the disk as you. I think Lee is being PC when it comes to being safe on loads.

I was trying to achieve 5.8gr of Accurate #2. I used disk .49 which was supposed to give me 5.8gr according to the chart but on the scale it ended up being 4.9gr. I double checked everything and still a light load. So from advice from TOF I changed the disk till I got the powder measure of 5.8gr. It ended up being disk .57. What a difference.

My rounds fired fine. So let em fly - just make sure you check those powder loads on a scale every now and then. I checked oh about every 20 rounds or so and the powder levels were very consistent.


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## Viscomm

OK guys, today was reload day. Dan I finished 100 .45 ACP rounds.

We were able to check case length and trim after resizing. We had the opportunity to verify that the Lee balance beam was indeed accurate and got pretty accurate, repetitive results from the powder measure - although it never did work the way it was supposed to using the mathmatical calculations of grains to cc's. We checked every tenth powder charge.

The OAL was a bit iffy because we were using the Alliant reloaders manual and could follow the recipe exactly - except for the brand of the bullet. Alliant wanted us to use Speer (their sister company) 230 FMJ-RN bullets but all we could find was Hornady in the same size. The max OAL for 45 acp is 1.275 and the min is 1.190. The Alliant book called for an AOL of 1.260. A new Remington 230 grain FMJ-RN measured 1.255. One of the 1911 websites recommended 1.265. So we decided that we would just start out in the middle and "shoot" for 1.260, +/- .005. We measured every one.

So were done for now since I cannot find ANY CCI500 primers or 150 grain FMJ-RN between Cleveland and Mars  The 38 SPL's will have to wait.

In a couple of days we will go to the range and see how the 45's function. Thanks again to all of you for the help and guidance.

Robert


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## Viscomm

In all the excitement, I forgot if I fired 5 or 6 ... just kidding!

What I forgot to mention is that Dan and I did all the Lee die steps including the fourth, factory crimp (in this case, taper) die. After using the "factory fourth" we could feel the similarity with factory fresh Remingtom UMC rounds - so maybe the additional $19.00 was worth it.

We shall see.

Robert


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## gmaske

Sorry I haven't been around for a bit. TOF is right on the powder weight thing. I've found that the Lee volume to weight list is almost always on the light side so, start with what they list and adjust it to get the right weight from there. It sounds like you are cruising right along. Have you popped off any of those new rounds yet? That Factory Crimp die is pretty slick! Seems like a lot of folks don't "get it" until they try one. It really does improve the old "mouse trap".

Somewhere in all of Lee's information about volume to weight conversion information they tell you how to figure out how may cc's a grain is for the can of powder you are working with. Once you know that information it is real easy to figure out where to set your Perfect Powder Measure. That will save you a bit of futzing with the adjustment.

Powder Weight is the standard that you need to adhere to.......The volume conversion information just make it easier to adjust your powder measure.


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## Viscomm

Well, I just ran into some conflicting info about the OAL of the .45 ACP 230 Grain FMJ-RN rounds we loaded Sunday.

The Lee chart recommends an AOL of 1.900 for an "unnamed" bullet.
The Alliant book recommends 1.260 for "Speers".
Factory UMC rounds measure between 1.255 and 1.267
We set the reloads at between 1.254 and 1.264 ... 1.260 nominal.

I contacted Hornady yesterday since we are using their bullets instead of Speers. Hornady is recommending 1.230. The only thing I can think of is that the Hornady bullet is .030 shorter - and to maintain the same, internal catridge volume, the OAL ends up .030 shorter also.

We could still reset the die and get down to Hornady's number. What do you think? Shoot some long and then seat shorter if the performance is poor? Any ideas or suggestions?

Best regards,

Robert


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## gmaske

Viscomm said:


> Well, I just ran into some conflicting info about the OAL of the .45 ACP 230 Grain FMJ-RN rounds we loaded Sunday.
> 
> The Lee chart recommends an AOL of 1.900 for an "unnamed" bullet.
> The Alliant book recommends 1.260 for "Speers".
> Factory UMC rounds measure between 1.255 and 1.267
> We set the reloads at between 1.254 and 1.264 ... 1.260 nominal.
> 
> I contacted Hornady yesterday since we are using their bullets instead of Speers. Hornady is recommending 1.230. The only thing I can think of is that the Hornady bullet is .030 shorter - and to maintain the same, internal catridge volume, the OAL ends up .030 shorter also.
> 
> We could still reset the die and get down to Hornady's number. What do you think? Shoot some long and then seat shorter if the performance is poor? Any ideas or suggestions?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Robert


Load em up and shoot em! :smt033
As long as you are under the maximum and longer than Hornady's recommendation they are perfectly safe.


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## TOF

I agree with Gmaske. Long we can live with short is when real problems can occur. As I mentioned earlier no two brands of the same basic bullet will be exactly the same. There are many reasons such as shape, alloy of metal used etc.

For what it is worth I use 1.260 for all my 230 grain loads. I load 10 and test thru a chronograph then adjust as need be. I 

You are not set up with a chronograph yet but should try a small number for effect before loading hundred counts.

I believe what you have will be just fine though.


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## Viscomm

Thanks to all of you my son and I were successful at reloading a bunch of 45 ACP rounds (CCI 300 primers, 5.8 grains of Alliant Unique powder and 230 grain Hornady FMJ-RN bullets). They shot good both in the Springfield 1911 and the rifle chambered for the 45. So while I am still trying to find some CCI500 primers and Speer 130 grain FMJ-RN bullets so I can try my hand at 38 Spl. I have another question.

I have 38 Spl brass that has only been shot once. I bought these cartridges factory-fresh and saved the brass after I shot it. I also have brass that had been previously reloaded. These are commercial reloads (158 gr. SWC) that I bought at the local Dick's Sporting Goods. They are good for target shooting but, even though they are very dirty, I have no complaints. The two types have been carefully kept apart.

My question is: Should the "once-shot" brass be put aside to reload with FMY-TMJ bullets while the twice-or-more brass be used only for lead WC or SWC or 1) visa-versa or 2) it doesn't matter?

Every case will be thoroughly (visually) inspected, cleaned, sized, measured, trimmed and flared before reloading. Any suggestions about how to decide what bullet goes in what brass?

Thanks again for the guidance.

Robert


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## gmaske

On revolver cartridges I load them until the case mouth starts to split. I have some 357 brass that has been reloaded to near max well over ten times. I've had one or two start to split but otherwise they are in great shape. I too keep the brands seperated and try to keep each box of 50 together as a lot. The point is the brass will tell you when it is time to retire it. The most important thing is to not over work the mouth of the case. When you bell or flair the mouth do just enough to get the bullet started and no more. The more you work the brass in an out the quicker it will wear out.


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