# Mind Training



## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

I think that some formal training in tactics and self defense could be invaluable for people keeping firearms for self defense, and carrying them concealed. But there is "mind training" that one should (must) do on one's own if self defense with a firearm is a possibility. 

In a sudden, desperate situation in which you must defend your life, or the lives of others, have you thought out the entire scenario, including actually shooting someone? One can practice quick draw, and engage targets but never take the concept to its conclusion where it counts; understanding the act of klling, in your brain. The act of firing at another human being, even a lousy one, requires the realization that your response is likely going to be lethal. 

I suggest that as a part of self defense training for someone who has never been in combat, is to learn to view your paper or steel target literally as an assailant, and try to capture those desperate moments as you aim and fire. Consider, in your mind, that you are shooting another human being; not a target. Take the process through in your mind, to train your brain to follow through in a true crisis. 

There are people who cannot shoot under those circumstances, or they hesitate too long, and lose their tactical advantage. Before you carry a firearm, or keep it in your house for self defense, be sure you can train yourself to shoot when you must. That training will allow you to function without too much thought when the moment is upon you. 

I would like to think that I will never have to shoot at any one again, but I know that armed citizens shoot more felons in the US than the police. If I possess, and carry, a firearm, I instantly increase the odds of an eventual encounter by nearly 100%; just because I am armed. Mindset is therefore essential.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree that mindset is essential. All should read Jeff Cooper's _Principles of Personal Defense_ as a start.

Mas Ayoob used to call this "The Decision," and made a big deal about working up the willingness to shoot someone in defense. Cooper appears to have found the opposite: with a full course of training, his students had no problem pressing the trigger "when the flag flew."

Wartime is different, of course, but none of our guys had a problem pressing the trigger on Taliban/al-Qaeda fighters.

Do you have any examples of armed folks who couldn't bring themselves to fire, or hesitated, and suffered because of it?


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## michael P. (Apr 13, 2008)

I agree, you guys are right on. The old gun fighting saying. "It is not enough to be able, you have to be willing." I recommend the book "On Killing" and "On Combat" by Lt. Col Grossman. I met him a couple of weeks ago and have read his books. I have read some of Jeff Coopers stuff, "To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth." I need to read the other book that you suggested. Thanks.


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## michael P. (Apr 13, 2008)

Two cops I know were involved in a gun fight a couple of years ago. The suspect had an M4, got out of his car after a chase and started shooting. One officer fired back and took out the suspect. The other officer got behind his car and didn't fire. When asked about it, I was told that he said, "I thought there were enough people shooting."


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

michael P. said:


> "I thought there were enough people shooting."


Excellent example of restraint, especially in light of the documented tendency to fire as soon as your partner does. But the non-firing cop was correct: lots of bullets flying is no guarantee of success. Only hits count.


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## michael P. (Apr 13, 2008)

When you shoot at realistic human targets, that helps. It helps get you used to shooting another human. Although the gun that the bag guy in the target is holding is a good start and a must have training aide for helping you decide to shoot, it is not enough. We all know that we can't shoot everybody who has a gun, even if they do point it at us. You have to consider the whole situation. Do you know if his gun is loaded, did somebody accidentally muzzle sweep you at the range, or did he tell you, I'm going to kill you and then point the gun at you. How many of us even look at the gun in the suspects hands at the range? It seems we disregard it and just fire center mass at the command of fire. Although not impossible, it is unlikely that someone will yell gun, or fire in a real situation, to give you permission to shoot. 

Force on force training goose a long way to helping you make a decision quickly to use lethal force. Also the target you are shooting at in force on force is a real human and not a paper cartoon guy, or worse yet an outline of a human. He is trying to hurt you and when you hurt him he screams out in pain. If you want it more real use blood packs and lots of screams.

I'm not saying don't shoot at paper. That is a part of your training, but I think there should be more.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Unfortunately, not everyone has the experience to set up properly controlled and safe FOF scenario. I agree that it is excellent training, but it must be done correctly in order to learn from it, rather than just being glorified paintball.

Also, lots of people have insufficient grounding in the basics of shooting, but want to press ahead to cool-guy stuff like FOF because they read about it in gun magazines and on the internet. I think this is a mistake. If you can't make good hits in a square range environment, you'll never make them under the stress of a dynamic FOF scenario.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

michael P. said:


> How many of us even look at the gun in the suspects hands at the range? It seems we disregard it and just fire center mass at the command of fire.


I've actually seen quite the opposite. During some exercises with shoot/noshoot drills, we set up a turning target that had a good guy with a cell phone in his hand, and on the other side, a bad guy with a gun in his hand. The target was then turned for 3 seconds and they were to draw and fire, or not draw and fire, depending on which way the target was turned.

More times than not, the shot placement went directly to the gun hand. The placement even went to the cell phone when someone accidentally shot the noshoot target. It's a matter of where the eyes go, the hands will follow and trying to break that. I was shooting with several officers and highway guys and they were dumbfounded at how they shot when given a decision vs just shooting paper targets. It's kind of the same principle behind why some believe the 1911 is so "pointable". It's got a natural grip angle and it's just like pointing your finger at something. Your body doesn't need to look at your hand to know where it is pointing, so being that when the target would turn, people would be looking for the gun or cell phone to decide. Once they decided to shoot, guess where there bullets were going? It's a pretty hard habit to break, but once you do, you shoot a ton better.

In closing, I'd suggest that you get some shoot/noshoot practice under your belt if possible. It's good practice. But before you do so, please understand that there is a lot that goes into drawing from a holster/concealment, don't do it until you are well practiced in drawing/returning with an empty gun. (disclaimer not meant as an assessment of anyones skill, just a disclaimer).

Shoot safe!

Zhur


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

Mike, as usual, makes some great points. Good shooting skills are the first necessity before moving on. After taking a good FOF class I am sold on their effectiveness if done correctly. It changed the way I viewed SD situations and gunfights. People, even trained "instructors", reacted very different once put under stress. While FOF will never be completely like real life, it does help to close the gap between the range and reality. They helps to train the mind as well as improve tactics. A point Mike can probably elaborate on is the willingness of soldiers to pull the trigger. The military spends time mentally conditioning our soldiers to perform under extreme stress. This is something many CCW holders undervalue. Just my opinion!


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

zhurdan said:


> In closing, I'd suggest that you get some shoot/noshoot practice under your belt if possible. It's good practice. But before you do so, please understand that there is a lot that goes into drawing from a holster/concealment, don't do it until you are well practiced in drawing/returning with an empty gun. (disclaimer not meant as an assessment of anyones skill, just a disclaimer


I second this, a good "Drawing and Shooting from Concealment" course would benefit any new shooter to make sure you are starting with a good foundation. As you can probably tell I am a big believer in good, competent training with good, competent trainers. Unfortunately not all trainers and training are equal so be smart about who you chose to learn from.


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## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

"...A rifle is just a tool, it is a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and pure you will hesitate at the moment of truth, you will not kill, you will become dead Marine and then you will be in a world of shit..." Gunnery Sgt. Hartman


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

vernpriest said:


> Mike can probably elaborate on is the willingness of soldiers to pull the trigger. The military spends time mentally conditioning our soldiers to perform under extreme stress. This is something many CCW holders undervalue. Just my opinion!


None of our guys in Afghanistan, to the best of my knowledge, had any problems firing on the enemy when necessary. If anything, some of our young lions were a tad eager to engage, and had to be kept in check by their NCOs. One guy even machinegunned to death a small tree that he mistook for an enemy. :mrgreen:

Lots of soldiers *seek* combat, because they want to engage the enemy, whether as a personal test, in a quest for awards, or simply a desire to destroy those who would destroy us.

The military method of mental conditioning isn't really applicable to civilian CCW holders, though. It involves a lot of yelling, stress, and humiliation by drill sergeants and training cadre, with the goal of creating willing participants in a shame-based culture. You learn to perform well so that you do not embarrass yourself, and the ultimate embarrassment is letting down your buddies.

The military doesn't spend a lot of time on navel-gazing and introspection regarding a willingness to kill, or at least it didn't when I went to infantry school. You're given the skills and the tools to defeat the enemy, and when the time comes, you just do it. Doing otherwise means letting down the team.

The closest I've seen to any kind of coaching in terms of killing was when our battalion was addressed by the commanding general of the 29th BCT, right before we deployed. He told us, "You _will_ meet the enemy. He will offer you no quarter, and you should offer him none. When you meet him, kill him! Destroy him, for he will try to do the same to you. Good hunting!"

It was a pretty good speech. :mrgreen:


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## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

Thats exactally right, the only word you say more than "sir" in basic training is "kill"..."1,2,3, attack chow hall aye aye sir, kill 85, kill 86, kill, kill, kill them all..." This coupled with sleep depravation, they really know how to get into a young man's head


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## michael P. (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't claim to be an expert on military training, however if you really think about it they do a whole lot to insure that you pull the trigger. To start with if you do not follow orders in boot camp, bad things happen to you. Such as, yelling, PT, jail time, public humiliation and so on. The soldier learns right away that it dose not pay to disregard orders. If that order is to kill then you do it or else. In contrast civilians are praised for using restraint even when killing would have been appropriate. If they do shoot they face bad press, and our legal system. Criminal and Civil.

The military personnel also use words like, ********, ***** and other terms when talking about the enemy. This is done to distance the soldier form the enemy and think of him as less than human. They don't say hey, lets go kill Alla Kuzy, a father who has two daughters that he is trying to raise. No they say, "Lets go kill some *********." Cops do the same thing and call suspects dirt bags, among other things. This is apart of their training. And it helps train the cop/soldier to kill. This is a tip of the ice burg. I could go on but I am trying to keep this short.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Stopping short of piling it on you michael P., because Lord knows.... nevermind.

I really don't know if you have been around too many people from Academy training, but nowadays, they train more about being politically correct so they don't get their collective arses sued off. Dirtbag, scumbag, pothead, or any other derogative term are discouraged as it will often times sway a jury if presented in court via video or audio tape, as most patrols in any given city, even the small ones are currently utilizing such technology to prevent lawsuits against themselves. Now, if I were to watch, say... COPS from the 80's and early 90's, that may very well be the order of the day, but being that some of us train with modern day, active police and military we may not see the same thing. I really don't like going this route, but within the course of 3 days you have pretty much told alot of professionals that they don't know what they are talking about, nor do they have any answers that would suffice your hypothetical situations.

Quote Michael P.
_I did say that their was only one right answer. True enough. However I didn't say that the answer was the same for everyone. In fact it would be different for different people. The right answer is that you are going to deal with what you determine to be threatening your life at that moment. It might be the knife, gun, or the shotgun. It might not even be just the weapon. It might be the look in the guys eye, or his posture + the weapon. My point is that it is hard to determine these things until you are facing the threat.​_End Quote

Alot of what you are saying in this last post about your hypothetical is alot of what I'd call "back tracking" and "Obama talk". No one can answer the question as you first lined out in your post as there being "only one correct answer" because you are handily admitting that there are many, multiple, individual answers based on who's answering. That being said, there is most definately NOT only one correct answer.

I myself am a student of all things that professionals are willing to let me absorb. I most likely would not call to task what you have said other than the fact that you did not know who you may be talking to and decided to show your knowledge thru a so called test, rather than read and learn who you may be calling into question. So far as I've learned, never speak above your 'paygrade' or in the case of internet forums, experience level.

Now, that being said, you may very well be an accomplished individual in the topics at hand, but remember that if you know more than someone, it should be your first duty to teach first, test second. Putting the proverbial cart before the horse (test before teach) in this case may appear as arrogant and disingenuous. I mean no ill will toward you, but the internet can be a ruthless place, be wary.

Zhurdan


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## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

As for the military goes not everyone is a Marine or an Army infantry man, not everyone who may contact the enemy has been to MCT and SOI...What about the poor kid who joined the reserves because of the GI bill, and ends up getting deployed. If hes put in a support posistion and ends up in an ambush theres a good chance his whatever combat training he has will go right out the window, not everyone in our military is an instinctive killer...


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## michael P. (Apr 13, 2008)

Well. Lets see. I went through a police academy in 2000. I have been working in law enforcement ever since. In that time I have work as a detention officer and several years on patrol. I currently work as an undercover narcotics detective. My other jobs include four years of SWAT and working as a Firearms instructor. None of my training has been done through civilian instructors. I have actively been a part of academy training in both defensive tactics and firearms/force on force training for several years. I can assure you that all of the cops that I know, which is several hundred if not thousands still use terms like, dirt bag, pot head and all of the others you might think of. These terms are not just used in private but are publicly spoken at every training class that I have ever been to by instructors in the presence of Sheriffs, Chiefs and every one else. These terms are very present in academy training. Weather they are used by instructors in the military or just by privates, I don't know. I do know that my brother in law got back form Iraq a couple of days ago and talking to him has convinced me that the terms are at the very least commonly still used by troops.

I honestly think that you missed the point on what I was saying about, "Which one do you think first." But I don't care to debate that any further due to the fact that I have clearly explained myself already. I hope that this post dose not in the least sound confrontational. I get that several people are not happy about my post on "Who do you shot first." If you read the post again you might notice that I already said that I was sorry about that. The fact is that I think if you knew me better that you would like me. :smt083


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

@ Michael P.
I'm glad to hear that there is plenty of experience in your playbook. I haven't given it any thought as to whether or not I like or dislike someone over the internet. I personally can't say one way or the other until I look a person in the eye and shake their hand. I was just trying to point out an often times destructive function of the internet. That is why I mentioned "it should be your first duty to teach first, test second". In general, it keeps responses to your posts more benign in nature and overall more productive as a whole. You may well know this already. My post was in the spirit of teach first, test second. Forums are notoriously tough ground, that's why I try to stick to that methodology. Shoot safe.

Zhur


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## michael P. (Apr 13, 2008)

I am new to forums. I don't know all of the rules or proper ways to communicate. Thanks for the reply.

Another thing that I thought of was that even criminals use words to emotionally distance themselves form their potential victims. Such as slut, pig and racial slurs. It is a minor part of training yourself to kill, but it seems to be everywhere. Most of this was brought to my attention by the book "On Killing" and by the author himself, during his class on, "The bullet proof mind."


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## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

*Killing*

My original point was that the average civilian with a carry permit has never faced the urgent need to kill in self defense. Throughout history, even most soldiers have not been able to fire on an enemy. I remember in Vietnam that special forces units had a virtual 100% fire rate, but drafted units never exceeded 75% that would fire their weapons. That figure was after intensive drill and training. And one must wonder how many of those were actually aiming at the enemy. I am long out of touch and do not know what that rate is today among our basically volunteer forces.

Civilians who have never had the experience, may or may not find themselves capable at the moment, of firing directly at an assailant without hesitation. The concept of training one's mind by drill, in target shooting, could be a good first step to the realization of what one faces when confronted with a desperate situation. Hesitating, giving up one's tactical advantage to warn an assailant, because of doubt or fear of taking a life, could mean death to the defender and his family.

This critical point seems to be largely ignored in many training courses, as well as discussions online. It is ugly, but with thousands of citizens obtaining concealed carry permits, and carrying weapons, the reality looms before us. Being able to shoot a target is relatively easy to learn. Being willing to shoot a human being requires much more training and soul searching. A great deal of thought should go into the matter by anyone in possession of a firearm.


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## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

amen


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