# AR-15 Decision Time...



## js

Ok, I've narrowed my AR15 search down to 2 now, both are from RockRiverArms... Any thoughts?

Here are the images with the info link below them...










Elite CAR AR Link










Elite CAR UTE2 Link


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## rfawcs

If those are your choices, go with the UTE2. If you mount optics, you want the optic axis as close as possible to the bore axis, and it already has a back-up iron sight (BUIS), so you won't have to buy one.


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## Shipwreck

I'll tell ya what - I like the way S&W has a 4 sided rail for the forgrip on their most expensive AR. From what I have read on other sites, U can order some of those parts from the company who actually makes the AR for S&W. I think that looks pretty sweet


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## js

Shipwreck said:


> I'll tell ya what - I like the way S&W has a 4 sided rail for the forgrip on their most expensive AR. From what I have read on other sites, U can order some of those parts from the company who actually makes the AR for S&W. I think that looks pretty sweet


Are you talking about this one...?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976720696.htm


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## Mike Barham

I'd go with the true flat-top (the first gun) because it's more versatile. You actually DON'T want the optics "as close as possible to the bore axis" on an AR. If you did that, you'd never be able to get down far enough on the stock to look through the optic. This is why Aimpoint mounts, etc. have risers.

I prefer flip-up rear sights that stay out of the optical sight picture until needed. I have an ARMS #40 backing an Aimpoint on my personal M4gery.

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## Shipwreck

js said:


> Are you talking about this one...?
> 
> http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976720696.htm


Yes, I think that may be the same one - here it is (you can get rail covers for part of the rail - like in this photo):


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## Todd

I think you should just go all out and get the Government model. http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-d...age=06govt.gif&CFID=24154964&CFTOKEN=93273966

Then, since we're both in NC, you can let me come and shoot it. :mrgreen:


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## jwkimber45

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> I'd go with the true flat-top (the first gun) because it's more versatile. You actually DON'T want the optics "as close as possible to the bore axis" on an AR. If you did that, you'd never be able to get down far enough on the stock to look through the optic. This is why Aimpoint mounts, etc. have risers.
> 
> I prefer flip-up rear sights that stay out of the optical sight picture until needed. I have an ARMS #40 backing an Aimpoint on my personal M4gery.


I was going to say the same thing.....the A4 is a tad more versitle on what sighting equpiment you can stack on it also.


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## A_J

jwkimber45 said:


> I was going to say the same thing.....the A4 is a tad more versitle on what sighting equpiment you can stack on it also.


+1, and if you later choose, you can take the whole darn thing off, including the rear sight, which would be handy if you want to mount an optic and a flip down rear sight.

And the S&W is made by Stag Arms.. the rail is really nice and well finished - I've had a chance to handle one. But of course, Stag may not actually make the rail themselves - I'm not sure if they do or not.

Either way, you can always put a rail forearm on the RRA.. there's a dizzying selection of parts for these out there..


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## Waffen

I'd get the black one it goes faster..No wait that's for the biker forum, sorry.

But black is beautiful so IMHO either one would be cool... But the smarter people about AR's gave you good advice.

W


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## Mike Barham

A_J said:


> And the S&W is made by Stag Arms.. the rail is really nice and well finished - I've had a chance to handle one.


I have a Stag upper on a Bushmaster lower. The Stag unit is of excellent quality. No issues whatsoever, and I shot it a lot before I ended up here in Yuma. I think Stag is currently the best value on the AR market.

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## js

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> I have a Stag upper on a Bushmaster lower. The Stag unit is of excellent quality. No issues whatsoever, and I shot it a lot before I ended up here in Yuma. I think Stag is currently the best value on the AR market.


Mike or anyone,

Is it pretty easy to connect the lower and upper together...? I know, I know...dumb question, but I may go that route. The stag uppers are a little cheaper than the RRA's. This way I could get a nice RRA lower with the 2-stage trigger, etc. and get a cheaper upper. Basically come out a little cheaper than buying a full RRA AR. I'm pinching pennys so I can get some extra's as well.


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## scooter

js said:


> Mike or anyone,
> 
> Is it pretty easy to connect the lower and upper together...? I know, I know...dumb question, but I may go that route. The stag uppers are a little cheaper than the RRA's. This way I could get a nice RRA lower with the 2-stage trigger, etc. and get a cheaper upper. Basically come out a little cheaper than buying a full RRA AR. I'm pinching pennys so I can get some extra's as well.


take Complete upper, set in place in complete lower/ push 2 pins in and yer done:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I reckon that falls under the EASY category huh?


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## Mike Barham

scooter said:


> take Complete upper, set in place in complete lower/ push 2 pins in and yer done:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
> I reckon that falls under the EASY category huh?


Yup, took me about three seconds.

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## js

scooter said:


> take Complete upper, set in place in complete lower/ push 2 pins in and yer done:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
> I reckon that falls under the EASY category huh?





Mike Barham at Galco said:


> Yup, took me about three seconds.


Well, that's great!  I may go ahead and order a RRA lower tomorrow and take a little time for the upper.


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## Shipwreck

Well, post up when ya assemble the entire thing


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## rfawcs

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> I'd go with the true flat-top (the first gun) because it's more versatile. You actually DON'T want the optics "as close as possible to the bore axis" on an AR. If you did that, you'd never be able to get down far enough on the stock to look through the optic. This is why Aimpoint mounts, etc. have risers.
> 
> I prefer flip-up rear sights that stay out of the optical sight picture until needed. I have an ARMS #40 backing an Aimpoint on my personal M4gery.


I apologize for not being clear. I used "optics" when I meant "scope". You want the line of sight axis of a telescopic sight as close as possible to the bore axis to minimize parallax error. Eliminating parallax is virtually impossible for a scope mounted above the bore; most scopes are made to be parallax-free at a specified distance. More or less distance from this point will induce some error.

I have no problem getting "down far enough" to use the telescopic sight on my flat-top AR-15 rifle. The hard part is to get the sight mounted at a comfortable height for your eye and still make a good cheek weld. You don't want to hunch down, nor do you want to have to stretch to see through the scope. The size of the scope objective (front) lens will directly affect this height. The AR-15 front sight will blur out on anything above about 2X; you won't even see it.

Reflex (red dot) and holographic sights are not affected by parallax, so they can be mounted at a height to clear or partially clear the iron sights. Most shooters prefer these sights to be co-witnessed with the iron sights. Here's what I mean:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/rfawcs/All3-2.jpg

Go here http://www.chuckhawks.com/optical_sights.htm for a good primer on optics.

I suggested the UTE2 as it had a rear sight built in, to save J.S. a little money. Personally, I wouldn't have picked either one of those rifles, but that wasn't the question asked.

J.S. - good luck with your choice. What ever you end up with, after some period of time, I suspect you'll be bitten by the bug and want another one. I really enjoy shooting my AR-15s and I know you will too. Good shooting!


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## js

rfawcs said:


> I suggested the UTE2 as it had a rear sight built in, to save J.S. a little money. Personally, I wouldn't have picked either one of those rifles, but that wasn't the question asked.
> 
> J.S. - good luck with your choice. What ever you end up with, after some period of time, I suspect you'll be bitten by the bug and want another one. I really enjoy shooting my AR-15s and I know you will too. Good shooting!


Thanks everyone... 

rfawcs... nice pics...what is the make of the AR that you have pictured here...? Is it a .308 caliber?










I've decided to go ahead and order the complete lower, I'm going to get the Rock River Arms lower... I've contacted a few AR dealers to try and get a good price on what I want. As soon as I get a good quote, I'll order it. I'll more than likely get a RRA upper, I just want to do more research on the upper first.


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## rfawcs

All three were built by Fulton Armory here in Maryland, all in 5.56mm.

The 20-inch barrel rifle is the "Liberator" model and has an inexpensive Nikko-Stirling 2x-7x scope and Harris bipod.

The 16-inch barrel carbine is the "Classic MIV" model and has a 2-stage RRA target trigger, an Aimpoint Comp M2 sight with a GG&G cantilever quick-detach mount, and a few other minor modifications.

The 11.5-inch barrel short-barreled rifle sports an EOTech Model 552 sight, also with a quick-detach mount from GG&G. It also has a 2-stage RRA trigger, an ACE collapsible buttstock, and some other minor stuff.

I'm warning you now: once you get bitten by the AR-15 bug, you're doomed. DOOMED! And broke. 

I'd like to put a better scope on the rifle, but all my gun money went for the four handguns I recently picked up. My purchase funds are tapped out until next March.


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## js

Alright gentlemen, The complete Rock River Arms lower receiver has been ordered! As soon as I have my FFL fax their info to the dealer that I bought it from tomorrow, it will be on it's way!

This is what I odered...


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## rfawcs

Nice choice! Photos when you get the upper, please.


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## js

rfawcs said:


> Nice choice! Photos when you get the upper, please.


Thanks, I should be receiving it Thursday or Friday...It was shipped yesterday. Now I just need to decide on what kind of upper I want... I'd like to put an EOTech sight on it at some point, so I need to take that into consideration.


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## A_J

I snagged an EOTech 512 a few weeks ago, lovin it. I've got it mounted directly on a A3 flattop, so it has absolute co-witness with the irons, but I also added a flip-down rear sight. You can also get a 1/4" riser mount for the EOTechs that will give 1/3 co-witness...

You have been to AR15.com, haven't you? 

Welcome to BRD :mrgreen:


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## tony pasley

when your ready i have a good range in my front yard where you can practice change-ups different target distances and cover fire. just up the hill


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## Revolver

I am well acquainted with RRA's products and all I can say is that they make good stuff. I have a rifle of theirs that never gave me issues. You'll love RRA's trigger.


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## js

A_J said:


> I snagged an EOTech 512 a few weeks ago, lovin it. I've got it mounted directly on a A3 flattop, so it has absolute co-witness with the irons, but I also added a flip-down rear sight. You can also get a 1/4" riser mount for the EOTechs that will give 1/3 co-witness...
> 
> You have been to AR15.com, haven't you?
> 
> Welcome to BRD :mrgreen:


There was a guy at the range sunday with his new LMT AR, one word...sweet!  Anyway, he had a EOTech installed on his....

I've been spending a ton of time over at AR15.com... trying to learn as much as I can. I want to go ahead and order an upper, just can't make up my mind.



Revolver said:


> I am well acquainted with RRA's products and all I can say is that they make good stuff. I have a rifle of theirs that never gave me issues. You'll love RRA's trigger.


Cool... I've nothing but good things about them...



tony pasley said:


> when your ready i have a good range in my front yard where you can practice change-ups different target distances and cover fire. just up the hill


Really? I may take you up on that offer... I've got to find a place to shoot it. There are 2 ranges in Greensboro, one inside and one out. The indoor range doesn't allow ARs and the outdoor range isn't accepting anymore members right now for some reason. So, I've got to start looking around for a place to go. There are plenty of outdoor places to go, I'm sure.... I just have to find them. 

One question though...for anybody...

What are the pros and cons to a "R-4 Barrel Profile"...?


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## Mike Barham

js said:


> What are the pros and cons to a "R-4 Barrel Profile"...?


It has a "step" forward of the front sight, so you can attach the M203 grenade launcher . No practical advantage over a straight barrel, really. I have the M4 barrel profile on my Stag because it came that way, but there's no way I'd pay extra for it. Basically, it's a Walter Mitty thing.

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## 2400

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> It has a "step" forward of the front sight, so you can attach the M203 grenade launcher . No practical advantage over a straight barrel, really. I have the M4 barrel profile on my Stag because it came that way, but there's no way I'd pay extra for it. Basically, *it's a Walter Mitty thing*.


+1 
One of my Rock River uppers has it but I wouldn't miss it at all if it was gone.


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## js

Well, I'm half way there... 

My Rock River Arms complete lower came in today! :smt023:supz:


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## Shipwreck

Kewl


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## scooter

Heeeyyy that looks JUST like mine............:mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## js

Alright guys and gals... The complete upper is on the way! I should have it have by Friday, it's being shipped 2-day air.

This is the Rock River Arms upper that I orderd...










The only thing different from the picture is I opted for the Dominator 2 EOTech Mount instead of the pictured Detachable Tactical Carry Handle.

Here's the pic of the Dominator 2 EOTech Mount from RRA...










I'll either add a EOtech to it at some point or I'll get an Aimpoint instead...not sure yet.

To say that I've been bitten by the AR bug is a major understatement!


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## Shipwreck

Kewl


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## jwkimber45

Nice!!!!!


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## A_J

js said:


> To say that I've been bitten by the AR bug is a major understatement!


Just wait till you shoot it - then you'll really be in deep!

I picked up a stripped lower last weekend - now I'm trying to decide on an upper.. I'm going for an SPR-ish build, seeing as I've got a perfectly good scope witout a home. Trying to keep the total under $1500 :|


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## Shipwreck

Every once in a while, I get interestedin 1 - but I wanna try to shoot one a few more times 1st, and I don't know of anyone here that has 1.


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## A_J

ship - Check the Texas Hometown forums at AR15.com - http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=8 - maybe you can lurk at a range day, and I'm pretty sure that someone would be glad to let you try theirs if it means another BRD sufferer.


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## Shipwreck

ok, depending on what I do about the PS90 I want, I'll look into that 

Thanks!


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## EddieZ

Ship,

If you make it to Austin sometime, I have an FS2000 you can try.

EddieZ


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## -gunut-

I would go for the first one


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## A_J

Shipwreck said:


> ok, depending on what I do about the PS90 I want, I'll look into that
> 
> Thanks!


Lemme guess, SG-1 inspired? 

I've been interested in the PS90 and the FS2000 for some time, but I lean towards the FS2000 'cause the ammo is easier to come by. But both are spendy..

EddieZ - how do you like yours?


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## EddieZ

So far, so good. I like the bullpup design and forward eject. Disassembly/cleaning is easy. Only put about 250 rounds through it so far. The availability and price of Ammo and magazines helped with the decision to get the FS2000.

EddieZ


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## Shipwreck

Yes, I've seen the damn things on tv for years now, and I want one. I like the idea of the 50 rd mags too. And, the round goes a long distance before it starts to drop.


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## js

Woohoo! I got my complete upper today! Pics will soon follow... 

The place I got it from went above and beyond the call of duty. They upgraded my order to a "government profile" entry tactical with a chromed lined barrel! 2-day air shipping... No extra charge!!!

I got it from www.eaglefirearms.net , go check them out sometime...


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## Shipwreck

Kewl!


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## js

Here's a quick pic...


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## Revolver

Now you've got the complete rifle. Get yourself a sling, some mags and some ammo, pronto.

I've been on the lookout for the ever elusive 1:7 chrome-lined gov't profile 20" A2 upper.


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## 2400

Shipwreck said:


> Yes, I've seen the damn things on tv for years now, and I want one. I like the idea of the 50 rd mags too. And, the round goes a long distance before it starts to drop.


 Do you have any ballistics info?

I found this comparison between the 223 and the 5.7X28.

5.7x28mm (SS190).224 diameter	31 grain bullet, 2340 FPS,	377 ftlbs of energy

.223 Remington (5.56 NATO)	.224 diameter, 55 grain bullet	3250 FPS, 1290 ftlbs of energy


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## 2400

js said:


> Woohoo! I got my complete upper today!
> 
> I got it from www.eaglefirearms.net , go check them out sometime...


Who made your upper?


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## js

2400 said:


> Who made your upper?


It's a Rock River Arms... I was going to hold out for a couple of months before I got one, but decided...what the hell... I'll go ahead and get it now.


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## js

Here's the complete Rock River Arms AR-15, All put together... 

RRA Complete Lower Half / 2-Stage National Match Trigger / 6-Position Tactical CAR Stock, Hogue Rubber Grip

RRA Government profile "Entry Tactical" Upper Half with a 1:9 chromed lined barrel / Dominator 2 EOTech Mount with rear sight


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## scooter

Dont know about you but I didnt like shooting with just the plastic butt,you can get a rubber M4 butt pad that slips on cheap here...
http://www.gungarage.com/ar15_accessories.htm


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## js

scooter said:


> Dont know about you but I didnt like shooting with just the plastic butt,you can get a rubber M4 butt pad that slips on cheap here...
> http://www.gungarage.com/ar15_accessories.htm


Thanks Scooter...  I'll check into it, I'll want to get one at some point...that's for sure.

There's alot that I want to do to it... new handguard rail system, EOtech or Aimpoint optics, Flashlight, etc. I've got a little list of stuff.


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## scooter

js said:


> Thanks Scooter...  I'll check into it, I'll want to get one at some point...that's for sure.
> 
> There's alot that I want to do to it... new handguard rail system, EOtech or Aimpoint optics, Flashlight, etc. I've got a little list of stuff.


If your list is like mine its bigger than your wallet and it will never get smaller, buy one on the list and havta add another to the list :mrgreen:


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