# First Handgun Candidates



## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

A few of you have read in the "New Member" forum that I'm preparing to purchase my first handgun in the near future. In my introduction post, I said I would be getting my CC permit and the gun would be used primarily for target shooting and self-defense. While this is true, I'm not sure how often I'll actually carry the weapon on my body. The gun will most likely live in the nightstand or in the vehicle when I'm not trying to hone my shooting skills.

It seems as though the 9mm is probably one of the best calibers to start with, so I'm pretty sure that is the route I'm going to go. Aside from that, a polymer frame has also been suggested. I first mentioned that I would like to get a new handgun, a holster, and some ammo for $750 out the door. The budget is slightly flexible, but I'd have to really see the need to spend more than that for a first handgun. I want to get a good gun, but I don't want to break the bank. Looking at what everyone else has makes me want to just jump in the game and buy the best of everything, but at this point, it just isn't practical for me.

I hate to make my post into a novel, but I have a few questions that hopefully you guys can help me answer.

1. What differs between a steel frame and polymer frame in terms of maintenance and cleaning?

2. Many handguns are offered in two-tone with polished or satin slides and blued frames. Why? Is it for looks, or does it serve another purpose?

3. Some handguns are offered in both SA and DA. Which is best for a beginner?

4. Are there any true American manufacturers left? This is more of a curiosity thing than anything else.

I know they're not all polymer frames, but here is my current list of choices with a few notes on each. It'd be great if you guys could post some fair prices for each if you don't mind.

Beretta 90-TWO F11
*MSRP: $700
*17-round mag

Beretta M9A1
*MSRP: $700
*15-round mag

Beretta F300
*MSRP: $600
*10-round mag

Kahr K9094C (blackened stainless)
*MSRP: $849
*7-round mag

Kahr K9093C (matte stainless)
*MSRP: $814
*7-round mag

-Sig P239 DAK
*MSRP: $823
*8-round mag (7-round for .357SIG)

-Sig P239
*MSRP: $747
*8-round mag (7-round for .357SIG)

--------------------

_Removed:_

-Beretta PX4 Storm
*MSRP: $575
*17-round mag

-Glock G19
*MSRP: ???
*15-round mag

-KimberKPD (9mm available soon)
*MSRP: $545
*??-round mag

-Sig P226 DAK
*MSRP: $853
*15-round mag

-Sig P229 DAK
*MSRP: $853
*13-round mag

-Sig SP2022
*MSRP: $613
*15-round mag

-S&W M&P
*MSRP: $640
*17-round mag

-Springfield XD9
*MSRP: ???
*16-round mag


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## AZ Outlaws (Dec 3, 2007)

Prices vary, but here is what I Googled...

G19 - $438.00
XD9 - &514.00


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

1. The difference is that the steel frame will need some kind of rust prevention product. Eezox is a good one, for example.

2. Mostly for looks, IMO.

3. For range use, either is fine. For concealed carry however, I firmly believe that a DA is better for a beginner.

4. Yes. There are many.

For fair prices, go to gunbroker.com, or one of the more popular gunshop websites such as Bud's Gun Shop.

hth,
PhilR.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

www.XDPistols.com has XDs around $500.

I got my XD45 for $500, and my XD9SC for $479, both on sale at a mega-shop in Orlando. Shop and wheel and deal.

1) Cleaning/care difference: None. Modern polymer and steel guns simply break down (field strip) into few pieces than traditional 1911-style guns. That said, there are now polymer-framed 1911's. Metal or polymer frame only effects weight. Lighter, better for carry, heavier, better for range.

2) Two-tone is mostly for looks. The slide finish on most modern guns s very hard and durable. Regardless of color.

3) Some guns are offered in SA/DA, and in DAO. SA/DA is Single/Double Action. Single action fires from a pre-cocked striker or hammer, DA requires actuating the hammer, or cocking the striker, with the trigger pull. DAO is Double Action Only. DAO is consdered "safer" by some due to the longer, more deliberate trigger pull, but less accurate, due to the tendancy to disrupt the sight picture during that pull. Some guns are hammerless, striker-fired SAs, like my XDs. The little knob out the back indicates a "cocked" postion, as opposed to a hammer. BOTH are safe, when used as recommended.

For a beginer, both are fine, if you understand the difference, and practice with it.

4) There are a few American manufacturers left, but many of the guns built for most of the American Distributers are made completely, or in part, overseas. It's a small world... Gun manufacturing is one of the truely globally balanced industries. German, Austrian, CROATIAN, Italian, and American guns are all getting rave reviews, and acceptance. I'm not a expert here, but I think Ruger, S&W, Para, Colt, Kimber... etc are all US brands.

Hope this all helps.

Jeff


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Para-Ordnance is actually Canadian. Other than that, the above posts are excellent advice.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Hey I see you guys are online.. got my mitts around an XD tactical .45 last night.. If I had the change in my pocket I would have bought it.. The story by the guy behind the desk is it was used by a LEO to qualify but didn't like it, so sold to the pawn shop... checked out the finish and barrel and looked brand spankin' new... rifling looked pristine... came with all box, holsters, etc like a new one.. 

$460+tax... "Like New" whata think? 

That particular shop has a big gun case and is one of the listed stores on gallery of guns so apparently they do some handgun business. The guy I talked to was pretty knowledgeable about the XD's.. He has a 4".. and checked out a 24/7 9mm he had.. Felt good, but I think the .45 xd trigger was a bit more "there"... The 24/7 trigger was very light but looooong.. maybe I prefer the XD then.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

I'll add I need to learn up on what else to look for in used pistols besides barrel rifling and feed ramp condition and slide rails condition. ?? Always open to learn.. of course. :mrgreen:


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. I think I'm overthinking about this, but I just want to be sure.

Also, I'm going to edit the original post each time I eliminate or add one to my list of candidates. Stay tuned!


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2007)

In answer to your last question Rugers are american made and are a rugged and reliable auto. I have a P94 in 40 S&W (now P944) and it has been 100% reliable and accurate for the 12 years I have owned it. For your purposes of nightstand, auto or target the P series will serve you well. That said I haven't tried the newer P345 or the SR9 and have read reports both good and bad on them.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

Now here comes the really hard part. I've decided that I definitely want a DAO and it looks like the 3 Sigs listed above are most likely to fit the bill. Now I just need to decide which one fits it best. Opinions on this matter are more than welcome.


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

I would suggest that before you buy a Sig with the DAK trigger on it, you see how that trigger pull feels to you. Most people I have talked to hate the DAK triggers. You may like it but from my experience most do not. I am not against a Sig at all (I plan to buy one soon myself, w/o the DAK trigger though), but you want to make sure its something you are comfortable with. If safety is the concern, why not just buy a handgun with a safety on it like an H&K or something. In fact, I didn't see an H&K on your list. If memory serves me, they are slightly less expensive then Sigs but still excellent handguns. While not DAO, the safety on it doubles as a decocker so your first round would be DA. I had an H&K USP compact .45 and loved it. I sold it but only becaue I had several other guns at the time and a very close friend begged me to sell it to him. Just my $0.02.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for the reply.

I've read and learned so much on these forums and various handgun sites over the last few weeks that I think my eyes are going to fall out and my brain is going to implode. I've taken a ton of things into consideration that I otherwise would have overlooked. One those things is the DAK (or DAO). I love the idea of consistant trigger pull. I'm sure a lot of Glock guys will chime in and suggest a G19, but in all honesty, after reading up on the Glocks, they just don't seem like my cup of tea. I know they're proven, but I just don't like too many things about them. You suggested H&K. I've been to their website a few times and nothing seems to grab me. Granted, I haven't held one, but I don't have that pre-purchase connection like I do with the Sigs. I'm sure when the day comes to actually fork over $800, I'll handle everything in the case, lol.

I just called Gander Mountain to get an idea of what the Sigs cost. I hope I can find them cheaper... I'm sure I can. In fact, they want MORE than MSRP for 2 of them and they said the 229 was on clearance...

P226 DAK - $899.99
P229 DAK - $949.97
P239 DAK - $799.99

I'm actually leaning toward the 239 and not just because of the price. I just think it would be an all around good performer that could also be a good CCW candidate if I decide to carry.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

sbc_pd10 said:


> If safety is the concern, why not just buy a handgun with a safety on it like an H&K or something. In fact, I didn't see an H&K on your list.


The H&K, I believe, is German. I think SigArms is foreign too, so at this point I don't think it makes much difference to OP.

I can't believe, considering that OP's looking at a couple of full-sizes anyway, that Ruger hasn't been mentioned. They make excellent polymer and aluminum-frame pistols in a variety of calibers, at a great price (best bang for the buck on the market). Oh, and they're American.

Better look fast though; the 9mm lineup is being seriously shaken up. The P89 and P95, both very reliable, serviceable pistols, are being retired in favor of the SR9. The .45ACP P90 is heading to the big armory in the sky in favor of the P345. Those 3 older P-series pistols are VERY popular models, highly recommended by their owners, and are being replaced by "California-safe" models with trigger locks and magazine D/Cs :smt022. I'm not sure the 89 or 90 have pin blocks; the 95 definitely does but there is no mag disconnect or integral trigger lock (making it simple yet still very safe; DA/SA with a decocking manual safety doesn't get much safer on a loaded chambered gun). The gun stores are probably looking to offload those to stock the current catalog, so you might get one heck of a deal if you shop around. The money you save can buy a couple extra mags, a Hogue Hand-All grip, and/or new sights, and you'll still be hundreds up on a SIG.

EDIT: And I would definitely trust my life to a Ruger's reliability and accuracy. In fact, I do; it's currently my only weapon.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*Sig*

X6Stringerx: Sir; I checked at the Sig Sauer Forums. Maybe for information and the feel of a specific group? HGF is a better forum but not specific with this model. I don't know squat about a Sig.
Follow up when you can


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

The Ruger SR9 was actually a candidate before I made this post, but after researching and reading a bunch of reviews, it seems as though they haven't worked the bugs out yet and there are some feeding and ejecting issues. Before I decided that my only options left were Sig, I had the Beretta PX4 on the list. It was the last one to go after I decided I definitely wanted DAO.

I've read a ton on the Sig board here on our forum, but I haven't checked any other Sig boards. I'll see what else I can dig up on some other boards before I plop down the cash.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

X6StringerX said:


> The Ruger SR9 was actually a candidate before I made this post, but after researching and reading a bunch of reviews, it seems as though they haven't worked the bugs out yet and there are some feeding and ejecting issues.


Maybe true, maybe not. There definitely are some bugs to work out, but over on rugerforum.com I haven't seen a lot of posts about SR9 failures; the chambering/ejection is largely based on the P-series which is absolutely solid. The P89, P90 and P95 though, like I said, each have 10+ years of reliable service and since you're looking at hammer-fired Browning actions anyway it can't hurt to rent a Ruger and see what you think. Any self-respecting range will have at least one Ruger P-series; Those that do not probably still have a bone to pick with Mr. Ruger's politics (Mr. Ruger in his later years was lambasted by gun owners for the "Ruger letter" written in support of a round limit and other measures that were ultimately included in the 1994 AWB).

In any case, I would be ABSOLUTELY SURE you want a DAO before you buy one. A lot of people who've posted about their selection of a DAO version of a hammer-fired pistol like the Sigs have ultimately regretted the decision. Having one double-action pull as a safety (DA/SA) is a great idea; forcing yourself to make the DA trigger pull every time reduces accuracy and firing rate, both of which are undesireable effects of DAO in a defensive/range handgun. It also is a FULL DA trigger pull, not the "safe-action" pull of Glocks at alii which are half-cocked at rest.

I'm not trying to turn you off of Sigs - they're great - I'm just making sure you know what you're getting into if you buy a DAO hammer-fired pistol.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

This just keeps getting more and more confusing. One minute I say I don't like Glocks and then I go to the Sig board and see that most of the Sig guys prefer the G19 over the P239. I'm going to have $200 in rental fees, lol.


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

Liko81 said:


> The H&K, I believe, is German. I think SigArms is foreign too, so at this point I don't think it makes much difference to OP.


I am sorry but I fail to see the point of this post? I never said they were not foreign made to begin with. I am well aware of where they are designed and made but once again what difference does it make to this topic? Also you seem to be implying that all Sigs are DAO. This is simply not true. If you did not intend the statement that way, then I apologize but remember that the OP may not know.

To OP.. I usually look on gunbroker.com to get an idea of what prices should be ranging. Granted sometimes they are high on certain models but it can help.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

Just to clear up any confusion. I didn't mean to imply in my original post that I was looking for USA made guns only. I was just asking out of curiosity what manufacturers are in the USA. I could only think of 2 or 3 off the top of my head and I thought there had to be more than Colt, Ruger, and S&W.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

sbc_pd10 said:


> I am sorry but I fail to see the point of this post? I never said they were not foreign made to begin with. I am well aware of where they are designed and made but once again what difference does it make to this topic?


It makes a difference, or at least I thought it did, because OP asked if there are any remaining American gun manufacturers, leading me to think that he might prefer American to otherwise. That does not seem to be the case.



> Also you seem to be implying that all Sigs are DAO. This is simply not true. If you did not intend the statement that way, then I apologize but remember that the OP may not know.


You interpreted my statement incorrectly. Sig makes a DAO variant of many of their pistols, and those are the versions OP was interested in. OP is well aware that Sig makes manual-safety and decock-safety as well, but was going for DAO for safety reasons. In my (limited) experience, I've learned that DAO hammer-fired models have some definite downsides over DA/SA, and the advantage (a "safe" state after every shot and no need for a safety) simply is not worth it. That was what I was trying to communicate to OP.


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

I guessed that was what you meant but I wanted to be sure. It was a little unclear. I know he asked about American manufacturers but he stated it was just curiousity and not a requirement for his purchase.


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## Alaskan_Viking (Jun 13, 2006)

H&K P7M8!:smt033


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

X6StringerX said:


> This just keeps getting more and more confusing. One minute I say I don't like Glocks and then I go to the Sig board and see that most of the Sig guys prefer the G19 over the P239. I'm going to have $200 in rental fees, lol.


It's better to have $200 in rental fees and know which gun you want to buy than to make a $500 or $800 mistake by buying the gun you think you want only to find out it's not for you. There's a lot of guys here who trade guns; sell one, buy another, and they can simply shrug off a gun that didn't work for them. But as a first gun, you want to be reasonably sure it'll meet your needs even if it's not the absolute best fit.


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

throw a dart

you are down to the sigs
all big and heavy and clunky
hope you like it


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## mvslay (May 6, 2007)

From the limited experience I have with the XD series I would recommend it. I like the grip angle and the width of the grip. I haven't shot any of the compacts yet but I am really interested in them. One in .40 S&W may be my next purchase.

For a weapon that is going to live part of it's life in a vehicle I would recommend a polymer frame with a stainless slide.

I also believe the XD is going to be around for a long time with many aftermarket options in the future. The XD is a inexpensive pistol but not a cheap pistol IMHO.

The money you save on the base pistol can be spent on night sights, a good holster, and extra ammo.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

sbc_pd10 said:


> I guessed that was what you meant but I wanted to be sure. It was a little unclear. I know he asked about American manufacturers but he stated it was just curiousity and not a requirement for his purchase.


The more I read and learn the more I realize the name doesn't mean where it's made etc.. It's made me pretty much think, I don't care as long as it's a well respected brand and model that's popular throughout the US or world.. Our GI's are carrying Italian branded Beretta's, and Sigs, and HK's and Para's and others now.. The XD's are Croatian made under a US brand, the Beretta's are Italian or US made under Italian brand, CZ's are Czech branded and made with a CZ USA division, Sigs and HK's I'm fairly sure are German made and branded. And I think I remember my friend telling me that one or some of the American companies for a while weren't even American owned.. oh boy.. Now I'm confused.. Oh but it gets worse.....

What's interesting is there are also copies of proven designs...

Such as the Taurus beretta copies that have been intriguing me.. Taurus bought up a Beretta facilities in Brazil (where most their guns seem to be made) and share the Beretta technology.. So you could get a Beretta 92FS or Taurus PT92 (look the same except for subtle differences such as safety/decocker on the slide vs frame.. but there's huge price difference and are they the same quality/reliability/accuracy? hmmmm I don't think so just from what I'm reading on the boards)

Then you also have the copies of the CZ pistols by folks like Tanfoglio (Italian) who I know nothing about , but imported by EAA (European American Arms).. calling it the EAA Witness (looks intriguing).. Copy of the 75B CZ. Then there's the Baby Desert Eagle (one of my short-picks.. nice) that's basically another CZ copy and I've read it's a darn good one.. produced by IMI (Isreali Military Industries) which is supposed to be a very good quality armory...

Confused yet?? I sure am. hehehe

Pretty much you can pick a route of action type.. such as 1911 style (a gazillion to chose from), CZ 75 style (I think is a modified browning hi-power style.. I think the Ruger P series is also similar), beretta 92 style, Glock / S&W / XD internal striker-fire style, etc.

... it's enough to say "screw it!! I'm getting a wheel gun!" hehehe but I bet that's as big a can of worms.

I guess with the luxury of much in the market to chose from, comes the daunting task of far more companies, guns and gun-types to learn about. :watching:

... sorry.. shutting up now to learn more from the guys here that actually do indeed know what they're talking about.:mrgreen:


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

babs said:


> Our GI's are carrying Italian branded Beretta's,


Most of ours were made in Maryland, actually. One of the conditions of the M9 contract was that Beretta would have to set up manufacturing in the US after I think the first year. That said, the Italian pistols I have seen in the inventory do seem a little smoother than the Maryland ones, though it may just be that they are older and more, uhhhh, "broken in."



> Such as the Taurus beretta copies that have been intriguing me.. Taurus bought up a Beretta facilities in Brazil (where most their guns seem to be made) and share the Beretta technology.. So you could get a Beretta 92FS or Taurus PT92 (look the same except for subtle differences such as safety/decocker on the slide vs frame.. but there's huge price difference and are they the same quality/reliability/accuracy? hmmmm I don't think so just from what I'm reading on the boards)


The Taurus 92/99 series are very reliable, though perhaps not quite as well-assembled as a Beretta. However, the design of the safety/decocking lever leaves much to be desired. If you carry the Taurus cocked-and-locked, as the three-position safety allows, when you thumb down the safety under stress, you may push it all the way to the "decock" position. Bad design, in my opinion.

I used to own a PT99 with the old-style Taurus safety, which was better. It worked as a true selective DA. Either hammer down, or cocked and locked, but no hammer-dropping feature.



> Then you also have the copies of the CZ pistols by folks like Tanfoglio (Italian) who I know nothing about , but imported by EAA (European American Arms).. calling it the EAA Witness (looks intriguing).. Copy of the 75B CZ. Then there's the Baby Desert Eagle (one of my short-picks.. nice) that's basically another CZ copy and I've read it's a darn good one.. produced by IMI (Isreali Military Industries) which is supposed to be a very good quality armory...


I really fail to see the point of the CZ copies anymore. Back during the Cold War when you couldn't get a CZ for less than $1500 (1980s money!), they made some sense. But now the CZ are very reasonably priced, and a superb bargain. Why not get the genuine article?



> CZ 75 style (I think is a modified browning hi-power style.. I think the Ruger P series is also similar),


Most of the CZs offer selective DA lockwork, meaning you can carry cocked-and-locked or hammer down. The Rugers have non-selective DA, meaning you can only carry hammer-down. I strongly prefer cocked-and-locked carry, and so I like the CZ design much more.

It's mainly personal preference, of course.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> Most of ours were made in Maryland, actually. One of the conditions of the M9 contract was that Beretta would have to set up manufacturing in the US after I think the first year. That said, the Italian pistols I have seen in the inventory do seem a little smoother than the Maryland ones, though it may just be that they are older and more, uhhhh, "broken in."


.. Yeah I've seen the questions posed over at the beretta forum about "US vs Italian versions" and I think it's pretty much a draw.. I haven't seen but maybe one or two threads comparing the Taurus to Beretta 92's though.



Mike Barham said:


> The Taurus 92/99 series are very reliable, though perhaps not quite as well-assembled as a Beretta. However, the design of the safety/decocking lever leaves much to be desired. If you carry the Taurus cocked-and-locked, as the three-position safety allows, when you thumb down the safety under stress, you may push it all the way to the "decock" position. Bad design, in my opinion.


I'm just learning about this part of 'carrying'.. If I understand correctly, you prefer then just a regular thumb safety that locks the hammer in cocked position, rather than a decocker with a DA first pull.. correct? (showin' my newbie stripes again) :mrgreen:

I can see when you need it to go bang fast, that extra possible delay with a decocker error can be a very very bad thing.

Don't the Beretta's decock as well though?? Or is the M9 different than the 92F's or FS's?



Mike Barham said:


> I used to own a PT99 with the old-style Taurus safety, which was better. It worked as a true selective DA. Either hammer down, or cocked and locked, but no hammer-dropping feature.


... so if you wanted hammer-down with a chambered round, you did it old school by thumb and trigger to let down the hammer?



Mike Barham said:


> I really fail to see the point of the CZ copies anymore. Back during the Cold War when you couldn't get a CZ for less than $1500 (1980s money!), they made some sense. But now the CZ are very reasonably priced, and a superb bargain. Why not get the genuine article?


Agreed.. I get the impression the CZ design is kind of an icon, much like the 1911 or beretta 92 or browning hi-power etc.. Why not have an original if the cash is the same.. I guess availability and if you want a Czech gun, Italian or Isreali or I think I even saw a Turkish version floating around.



Mike Barham said:


> Most of the CZs offer selective DA lockwork, meaning you can carry cocked-and-locked or hammer down. The Rugers have non-selective DA, meaning you can only carry hammer-down. I strongly prefer cocked-and-locked carry, and so I like the CZ design much more.It's mainly personal preference, of course.


I'd probably carry hammer down, probably without a chambered round, as a civilian toting my piece to the gun range, but I'm also admittedly ignorant to the whole concept of carrying a loaded weapon anywhere except the woods on hunt for brown tasty critters. But I agree the choice is a good thing.

I keep coming back to drooling at their metal-frame design, large capacity, their inverted full slide and grip setup. It's high on my not-so short list.. maybe a 97B in .45. :smt023


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## drummin man 627 (Dec 25, 2006)

I own a Taurus PT 92. The possibility of accidently de-cocking was a concern. Once I tried it, I realized that the design has a "click" when you safety off. The de-cock requires that you depress down on a spring which brings the control back to the ready(safety off) position. BTW, the hammer only goes down to a notch, and is still not at a complete rest, and results in a shorter D.A.
I think of that feature as an improvement over the backwards European "up to de-cock "design. It also gives me the option of Condition One carry, if I ever get that good.
The PT92 series is a copy of the Beretta design, prety much, although many parts are no longer interchangable due to improvements incorporated by Taurus. The Beretta is a bit more refined in workmanship. In my case, I am not worried about the difference of one inch groups at 50 feet. I'm more worried about reliability. I've only had one FTF in about 800 rounds(still new), and that was round number 60ish with crappy range loads.
My 92 is a little large for everyday CCW, and it is set-up for a H.D. / SHTF gun. I put a laserlye on it for that purpose. Under dark gun, dark room conditions I like that the red dot instantainiously tells me where the muzzle is pointed if I ever have check on that "bump in the night".


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

Assuming I fall in love with Sig's DAK trigger and that is, in fact, the gun that I get, what do you guys think about the .357 Sig caliber in comparison to the 9mm?


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

As far as the .357 Sig round itself, I personally love it. My Glock was a .357 Sig and it was the most accurate handgun I have had the privelege of shooting so far. However, you need to have a few considerations about buying it over a 9mm. What do you want to do with the firearm? If its mostly range and then self defense at home, I would say probably 9mm would be fine. If you are looking at CCW all the time, I would personally prefer the .357 Sig. The .357 doesn't really have that much more recoil, but imo it has better stopping power. Another consideration is the availability of ammo in your area and price of the ammo. Some have noted trouble finding ammo for the .357 and it is usually about 1.5x to 2x as expensive as the 9mm ammo. As I have told others though, you can look into the Georgia Arms Company and buy Speer ammo from them for about half what any other brand would cost you in the store. I have shot their ammo for years and never once had a failure of any sorts. You can buy FMJ, JHP, and even +p and +p+ ammo from them. Most people are probably going to tell you to go with the 9mm though. Really depends on what you like and not what I like.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

I found a webpage a retired cop started that was showing ballistics and pros and cons of the .357Sig. It seems like it has quite a few strong points. I just don't want something that feels like a horse is kicking you in the hand when you shoot it. On the other hand, I don't want to buy a gun and then 2 months down the road wish I would have bought something a little more powerful. I'm in pursuit of the "perfect" all around handgun, but I'm not sure it exists, lol.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

babs said:


> I'm just learning about this part of 'carrying'.. If I understand correctly, you prefer then just a regular thumb safety that locks the hammer in cocked position, rather than a decocker with a DA first pull.. correct? (showin' my newbie stripes again) :mrgreen:


I do, and that's the only advantage I can see in the Taurus design over the Beretta. Carrying cocked and locked ("Condition One") gives a consistent trigger pull, versus the _crunch_-_tick_ action of a DA pistol. Consistent trigger action makes a pistol easier to shoot well.



> Don't the Beretta's decock as well though?? Or is the M9 different than the 92F's or FS's?


They do, and the M9 is exactly the same (alas!). But they don't try, like the Taurus, to be all things to all people. My general opinion is that items that try to do a lot of things at once seldom do any one thing very well. I think the Taurus safety falls into that category.

If you carry either gun with the hammer down and the safety off, you'll likely be fine.



> ... so if you wanted hammer-down with a chambered round, you did it old school by thumb and trigger to let down the hammer?


Yup. Same with a CZ75. Not a big deal, really, if you do it properly. But of course I never used the DA feature on the Taurus, nor do I use it on the wife's CZ when I shoot it.



> I'd probably carry hammer down, probably without a chambered round, as a civilian toting my piece to the gun range, but I'm also admittedly ignorant to the whole concept of carrying a loaded weapon anywhere except the woods on hunt for brown tasty critters.


Hammer down on a live round, safety/decocking dingus "off," is a perfectly safe mode of carry for anyone who can be trusted to carry a pistol. No need to make your one-hand gun into a two-hand gun by carrying empty chamber.


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

X6StringerX said:


> I just don't want something that feels like a horse is kicking you in the hand when you shoot it.


If this is your only concern for not buying a .357 Sig then put your mind at ease. A .357 Sig is not like shooting a .357 Mag revolver. Its hardly more recoil then a 9mm imo. In fact, I kinda felt like it "pushed" more then it "kicked" or "snapped". My advice is to rent something in that caliber and see how it feels to you.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I can barely tell a .357SIG from a .40, and it seems similarly snappy. I think it recoils considerably harder than 9mm - which is entirely expected since it is more powerful - though it is certainly not uncontrollable in reasonably well-practiced hands.


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

Well now that I think about it mine did have a compensated barrel and that helped but I still don't think its anything to worry about. BTW you mentioned something about a Sig I think. If you hadn't noticed someone is trying to sell a brand new SAS type P229 I think it was on the classified section of these forums. You might find a good deal there. Can't remember what caliber it was off the top of my head though.

Edit- Nm they sold that one I just saw. However keep an eye out there you may find something.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

Speaking of a .357 Mag, Dad has a 4" SS Rossi. I think it's time I shoot it just to see what it feels like. I know it won't be anything like the semi-autos, but who knows... I might not mind the feel of it and I won't be so worried about whether or not a .347SIG or .45ACP or whatever is manageable.


Notes to self:

1- Shoot .357 mag
2- Rent various semi-autos in different calibers and different actions from gun range
3- Purchase gun that is most fun to shoot and practical to own
4- Enjoy gun

EDIT:

5- Post pics on handgunforum.net


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## sbc_pd10 (Dec 13, 2007)

Shoot some .38 specials in your dad's gun first and see how that feels. Then when you are ready for a bigger bang and more recoil try the .357 magnum rounds in it and see what you think. Good plan though from what I can see. GL and looking forward to those pics.


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

The purchase time is near and I'm still in the theoretical stage. I haven't had a chance to go to a range, so my choices are based solely on reviews. The little angel on my shoulder says that the 9mm choices are the safe bets, but the little devil on the other side says to "do it right" and get the P239 in .357SIG. I ask myself, if I could only ever own one handgun, would I be happy with a 9mm? I'm not so sure. Would I want more power? I think I would... I attibute that to the "if you don't have it, you'll need it" mechanism in my brain. If I could own two handguns, which I can, would I be happier with a .22 for target shooting and then the .357SIG for the serious side? I think I might. I've been reading a lot about guns and I still haven't decided what to do. When I first started compiling my list, I really favored the double-stacks for the capacity, but after reading and reading and reading and asking myself different questions, I think a single-stack is the way to go if you MUST trust your life on it.

I know many people have already replied to this thread and it might be unlikely that it'll grab anyone's attention since it is old, but I ask one thing of anyone that replies after this post.

Please select one gun from my first post and briefly explain why it is the best choice. Think of the gun that is most likely to help you and/or your family get out of harm's way. Think of harm in many different ways. Bear? Human? Lost and hungry? Feel free to add other situations.

I appreciate everyone's input.


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## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

One newb to another.... Go shoot 'em if you can rent 'em. 

Get to know the actions, safeties, triggers etc. It's worth it and it sure beats work. :mrgreen: You may find some surprising answers when you bust a few rounds at how the different guns shoot and how the targets look when you reel them in.. I found out a nice thing about Ruger P series.. I can shoot them. I also found out I wasn't so hot with the XD, and also that I'd have to have a fat fat grip if it were a revolver. But that's me... Everyone's hands, eyes, coordination, etc.. All different. May save you some buyer's remorse later.

Can't buy a car just on specs, reviews and gas mileage.. You gotta drive it if you can and even that doesn't tell you for sure that it's the perfect car for you.. There are still things about my new ride that simply [email protected]$$ me off to no end.

Good luck. :smt1099


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## X6StringerX (Dec 11, 2007)

I appreciate your suggestions, but the reality of this is that I'm probably going to buy a gun without having ever shot it. I had plans of going to one particular range, but later learned that it's not actually a range. Well, technically, it is, but its just a vacant piece of public land with some targets. There are no supervisors or anything like that. Anyone can go there at any time night or day. I'm fairly close to one supervised range, but they don't offer rentals. The Gander Mountain in my area only has an archery range. There are no other ranges within 100 miles.

I live in a rural area. We have over an acre of land with mountains on all sides. Our only neighbors are family members. My front yard will be my range. The only way for me to shoot any particular gun without buying it is to find a friend or family member that has one. Unfortunately, none of my friends or family members have any of the guns that I'm considering.


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## Lucretius (Jan 3, 2008)

X6StringerX said:


> I appreciate your suggestions, but the reality of this is that I'm probably going to buy a gun without having ever shot it. I had plans of going to one particular range, but later learned that it's not actually a range. Well, technically, it is, but its just a vacant piece of public land with some targets. There are no supervisors or anything like that. Anyone can go there at any time night or day. I'm fairly close to one supervised range, but they don't offer rentals. The Gander Mountain in my area only has an archery range. There are no other ranges within 100 miles.
> 
> I live in a rural area. We have over an acre of land with mountains on all sides. Our only neighbors are family members. My front yard will be my range. The only way for me to shoot any particular gun without buying it is to find a friend or family member that has one. Unfortunately, none of my friends or family members have any of the guns that I'm considering.


This is a tough situation, and I am a "used to" handgun owner looking to get into another handgun as well, so I can simpathize with your plight.

First, from my experiences ( and pre-conceived notions) I would *highly* reccommend you visiting a range where you can at least test something similar to what your interests are.

I did just that, and my findings where far from the ideas I had before I went into to test fire some guns.

I previously have owned a ruger vaquero 45 LC, S&W sigma 9mm, Sig p220 and currently have a ruger MK3 22/45. The ruger I found out I flat could not shoot a revolver accurately without great effort. The Sigma 9mm was ok, the trigger was absolutely garbage. The Sig was a nice gun, never malfunctioned and seemed to fit my hands nice. But it really never seemd like the "gun for me". It was accurate, but I ultimately sold it to fund another bow for archery.

When I went to rent guns at the range today, I felt in my mind that a ruger or S&W 357 4" revolver was the "perfect" gun for what I needed. I'm really happy I didn't just go buy one. I found out that I still cannot get a consistant grip and my accuracy stinks with a revolver, period.

The next gun I rented that I felt would be the one was a S&W M&P 45 cal. The gun was nice but the slide release was a pain imo, and I wasn't nearly as accurate as I was with the gun/guns that suprised me the most....... Glocks. I don't know why or how, but I simply could shoot very nice groups with about any caliber glock I wrapped my hands around. And I really didn't want a glock truthfully, but I'll tell you what, I'm gonna own the gun that shoots best for me. I also shot the XD, and it was a great gun as well, but not as nice as the glocks.

Sorry for the book, I just hope this helps you as much as it did for me.


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## bluehandgun (Jul 13, 2007)

i am a big fan of the ruger p95. it was my first handgun and it was an excellent choice. i totally put my trust in a reputable gun store to help me out and they gave me great advice. it will be one gun i will never get rid of.

a few reasons i like my p95...

1. great to shoot right out of the box, i was a novice and i hit the target right off the bat. i had previously had some accuracy issues with a friends glock...
2. easy to field strip, it has ONE more part than a glock during take down. still quite easy to learn, cleaning it is a cinch.
3. have never had ANY issues with it using 115 grain 9mm which is a common type of ammo
4. i like the safety and the DA/SA, trigger is good, and the fact it is not striker fired, i don't have to worry about it if i dry fire it.
5. built like a proverbial tank, you do not have to baby this firearm.
6. you can't beat the price
7. made in the usa with a reliable company to back it up.

good luck


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