# Finally figured out what I was doing wrong!



## chip2 (Apr 8, 2015)

I watched a video by Adam Painchaud, director of the Sig Sauer Academy. He suggested loading one round into the gun, aiming and shooting, and when the gun cycles, doing a dry fire for the second shot. When I did that, I actually saw the front sight dip. That's the first time I've been able to see what it looks like when I jerk the trigger due to anticipating the recoil. No wonder I've been shooting low! After that, I slowed down, relaxed my shooting hand a bit (I was gripping too tightly), and concentrated on a slow, steady trigger press. As a result, my groups tightened up considerably, and I was able to shoot 99/100 from 7 yards. Next I'll try increasing the distance to maybe 10 yards, then 15 yards, etc and see if I can maintain decent groupings.

Eventually I want to be able to shoot a decent group, defined as 4" or less, at 25 yards. What should my pass criteria be for moving on to the next distance?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

If your gun is operating correctly, this won't happen. With just one round in the magazine, or chamber, once it is fired, the slide is going to lock open which means you won't get a dry fire. To do this, use the old trick of loading a snap cap as your second round.* Or better yet, have someone else load a few live rounds and then a snap cap, unbeknownst to you where that is going to be in the round count.


* You clearly must have done this since you report doing a dry fire after the fired round.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> If your gun is operating correctly, this won't happen...


Sure it will.
Just leave the magazine out of the gun.

But your suggestion of using a snap-cap as the second round is an excellent one. It's better for the gun, if you use a snap-cap.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*chip2*;

The "secret" of trigger control is something that my dancer-wife calls "isolation."
Loosening your grip is not the real answer. It'll take you in the wrong direction. It may even eventually cause your groups to open up again.

You need to "isolate" your trigger finger.
That is, you need to be able to grip your pistol very firmly, which gives you both sight-picture and recoil-recovery control, while leaving your trigger finger both loose and able to move entirely independently of the other fingers of that hand.

If your trigger finger cannot "isolate" itself, your other fingers will move along with it. This is called "milking" the gun, and it is why your previous shots went low (and probably left as well). So you need to practice isolating your trigger finger.
Grip the pistol as firmly as you can, but do whatever you need to do to allow your trigger finger freedom of independent movement. Maintaining that condition, press (not "pull") the trigger straight to the rear. Concentrate upon maintaining that firm grip, but letting the trigger finger move independently.

This practice is best done with a proven-empty pistol aimed at a blank, featureless segment of light-colored wall. Grip the gun firmly. Slowly and smoothly press the trigger while watching its sights to see that the pistol does not move.
When you can actually accomplish that, go to the range and try it with live ammunition. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Start shooting at five yards or less. When you can consistently form a tiny group with five successive shots, move back to seven yards. Then 10. Then 12 or 13. Then 15. Then 20, and finally 25 yards.
Don't rush the process. Slow and smooth is what you're after. Speed comes later, after lots of slow, smooth practice.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Sure it will.
> *Just leave the magazine out of the gun.*
> 
> But your suggestion of using a snap-cap as the second round is an excellent one. It's better for the gun, if you use a snap-cap.


This is true and I wasn't thinking that. When I do my practicing at home, I use an empty magazine. Of course the gun is also empty so there won't be any slide locking going on, anyway unless I force it.

Some guns do fine with dry fire practice and not using snap caps. But it is best to check the owner's manual to see if the manufacturer has covered this practice. I do both ways with my Glocks, but honestly most of the time the gun is totally empty. However, I do NOT let the slide slam closed on an empty chamber since I have heard that this practice has caused cracked in the breach face on Glocks and other guns.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *chip2*;
> 
> The "secret" of trigger control is something that my dancer-wife calls "isolation."
> Loosening your grip is not the real answer. It'll take you in the wrong direction. It may even eventually cause your groups to open up again.
> ...


Excellent advice and is the way I was taught/learned to shoot a handgun... specifically a pistol.


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## chip2 (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks for the helpful replies!

You're right--I should have clarified by saying that the drill is to load one round, then drop the mag to prevent the slide from locking open.

I'm shooting an XD 9 service model. I contacted Springfield, and they said that dry firing without snap caps is probably okay as long as it isn't done to excess.

Steve, I will definitely work on isolating my trigger finger, and I think you are right on when you advise not to rush the process. I seem to do best when I take it nice and slow and concentrate on the fundamentals. It even seems to help when I pause and return to the ready position between shots. I can always work on speed later after I get everything else under control.

By the way, I do dry fire practice every day (using snap caps). I can dry fire all day long without moving the front sight. I also sometimes practice with an air pistol in my back yard when I can't make it to the range, and am able to shoot nice tight groups. When I get to the range, however, my subconscious knows that there are live rounds involved and that's when the problem shows up.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

chip2 said:


> ...When I get to the range, however, my subconscious knows that there are live rounds involved and that's when the problem shows up.


The, um, professional term for that is "flinch."
I guess that you'll have to learn to "isolate" your mind, as well.
That is, find some way of "pretending" that you're only dry-firing, or only shooting airgun pellets.

In your subconscious, you may feel fearful of recoil discomfort. This would cause you to momentarily panic, and to "forget" all of your good practice habits. (If that's correct, you are not the only person to be doing it.)
Well, the way to eliminate discomfort due to recoil is to grip the pistol even more firmly, and to lock your wrists and elbows, so both you and the gun recoil together, and your whole-body mass absorbs the force.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

chip2:
These guys know what they are talking about. I have nothing to add other than to take their advice. You sound like a positive open minded individual that is willing to listen to others. Don't worry we've all gone through the same crap and disappointments while learning to become proficient at shooting. You'll get it, just as with anything it takes practice and a willingness to learn. You certainly have that. 

By the way the XD 9 is a great gun from a great company. I've got an XDM .45 Compact, XDS .45, XD 40 Subcompact and a XD 9 Mod 2. There are a lot of aftermarket parts available for those guns if you so choose, not that they need them. Springfield at one time offered free magazines, holster and magazine pouches for those who have purchased their firearms during a certain time period. I fell into that category and received them within two weeks of my submission. I also ordered extra recoil springs from them and received them in a few days. I have nothing but good things to say about Springfield Armory, their products and customer service.

You might want to check your "snap caps" occasionally for wear depending on how much you "dry fire". They do have a tendency to wear as the firing pin continuously pounds a deeper depression into the dummy primer. If you have access to reloading equipment you can make your own "snap caps" and use a pencil eraser as the primer. Just resize the empty casing press in a bullet and cut down the eraser to fit within the primer pocket.

Some people will place a coin on top of the gun as they "dry fire" if the coin stays put your doing pretty good, if it falls to the floor practice some more.


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

SouthernBoy said:


> If your gun is operating correctly, this won't happen. With just one round in the magazine, or chamber, once it is fired, the slide is going to lock open which means you won't get a dry fire. To do this, use the old trick of loading a snap cap as your second round.* Or better yet, have someone else load a few live rounds and then a snap cap, unbeknownst to you where that is going to be in the round count.
> 
> * You clearly must have done this since you report doing a dry fire after the fired round.


My Son and I do this to each other all the time at the range! You never know when it is going to come up! It really does help you to concentrate on each and every trigger squeeze!! You know; "Ya' don't want your shooting Buddy to see you flinch"!!!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Further notes on "flinch"...

Many unschooled pistol shooters are led to think that if they relax their hand(s) and don't grip the pistol as tightly as possible, then recoil won't hurt as much. (As much as what? Well, truthfully, I dunno.)
In real fact, the exact opposite is true. The more tightly you hold the pistol, the less its recoil will hurt!

That's where "flinch" comes from: You become so wary of the pain of recoil that you actually lose control of the gun while trying to avoid it.

When you hold the pistol loosely, the recoil impulse gets a "running start," and by the time that the gun actually hits your hand its apparent recoil has almost doubled.
But if you grip the gun as tightly as possible (the "death grip"), there is no "running start." Your rigid hands, wrists, and elbows transmit all of the force directly to the (relatively) huge mass of your entire upper body. Your hands really don't feel a thing. There is no pain.

Proof: My wife, Jean, is less than five feet tall, and weighs less than 100 pounds, fully dressed and soaking wet, yet she is a killer with a .45 ACP pistol. She actually feels no recoil at all. That's because I taught her to hold the pistol in a "death grip" and to isolate her index finger long before she ever fired her first shot. I didn't warn her about the recoil, and she never, ever felt any.


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2013)

For me, I have to use a slow steady pull and not really know exactly when the trigger will release.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The, um, professional term for that is "flinch."
> I guess that you'll have to learn to "isolate" your mind, as well.
> That is,* find some way of "pretending" that you're only dry-firing, or only shooting airgun pellets.
> *
> ...


Back in my Hi-Power Bench Rest days I decided that noise anticipation was as bad, if not worse, than recoil anticipation. One unprotected blast (from anywhere) was enough to ruin my performance for the day. Double hearing protection makes all the difference in the world for me.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Chip 2:
All of my friends here have given good info. I have learned a lot from them in the last eight months. On top of all the other good advice that you have received, I would like to add one thing. Get a Laserlyte cartridge for your gun, ($74), and Google Chris Sajnog. I don't work for either one, but they have improved my pistol shooting more than any other training. The Laserlyte makes dryfire practice fun and effective, Sajnogs training makes it more effective. Good luck.

GW


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

TurboHonda:


> Double hearing protection makes all the difference in the world for me.


*What I did was stupid, and I do not recommend it.* When I first started getting into handguns the second gun I bought was an S&W Model 29 .44 Magnum, 8 3/8" still have it. I had to have the loudest, baddest, most powerful gun on the market. I would go out, load it up, set up a couple of targets and blast away as fast as I could pull the trigger.

There were a couple of old abandoned cars out in the middle of nowhere. We'd go out with AR 15's, 12 gauge shotguns loaded with 000 buck you name it, just to see how much damage we could inflict on those cars. They literally looked like swiss cheese, beyond restoration. I fired a Rossi double barrel shotgun loaded with 000 buck through the hood, both barrels at the same time. You could stick your "freakin' head" through it. Couldn't hit a God damn thing with the "29" firing it as fast as I could, except for the cars but it sure was fun feeling the concussion traveling through my body firing such a powerful weapon. Hell, I was in my early 20's this was my second handgun and I was having more fun making a lot of noise and having the gun flip up about a foot and a half into the air. Shit, I was "Dirty Harry". I fired thousands of rounds through the gun that way and wore out the forcing cone, I replaced the 8 3/8" barrel with a 4 inch. To put it mildly, I beat the living crap out of that gun. Other than changing the barrel the gun is still tight, timing still good, no lead shavings or spitting. Says a lot for that "29".

One day I came to my senses and realized that doing this really does not serve any useful purpose other than wasting a lot of money on ammo. The cars were so perforated that a few more holes didn't make any difference. The thrill was gone, at least with that kind of shooting. 35 years later I now have tinnitus. I only occasionally wore hearing protection. Damn lucky I'm not deaf. Fortunately, for me I only did this for about 6 months only on weekends. About the only useful thing it did for me was not having any adverse reaction to recoil. I don't know if it was because I was more concentrated on having fun making noise, blowing holes through cars or what. It didn't faze me. After all that, shooting .44 Specials felt like a .22, same for my 1911 .45. Wow, I could now hit what I was aiming at! Soon after I took both tactical handgun and safety courses. But back then at least for me and a lot of my friends it was all about buying guns driving out into the middle of nowhere and just blasting away until the sun went down.


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## chip2 (Apr 8, 2015)

I guess I should clarify some more: I'm not holding the gun loosely, I just went from 50/50 to 60/40 like a lot of people recommend. I took the shooting hand down to 40% (give or take) and took the support hand up to 60% (give or take). It lets me move my trigger finger more smoothly. And I have also doubled up on hearing protection.

I can't explain why I flinch. I'm not afraid of the noise or recoil (at least I don't think so). The recoil is actually not as bad as I was expecting. The noise is about what I had expected, but with hearing protection it is okay.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

chip2 said:


> I guess I should clarify some more: I'm not holding the gun loosely, I just went from 50/50 to 60/40 like a lot of people recommend. I took the shooting hand down to 40% (give or take) and took the support hand up to 60% (give or take). It lets me move my trigger finger more smoothly...


OK -- it's your choice. But I disagree with that advice, and with whomever gave it to you.
You're actually making your flinch worse, and you're learning nothing about good trigger control.

No matter how much you practice, if you're practicing a bad technique your practice will not help you to shoot better.

When you reduce the force of your strong-hand's hold, you can't help but defeat your attempts to learn finger isolation.
Further, you are setting up an opportunity for you to learn to "milk" your pistol's handle, and thereby to shoot low-and-left for the rest of your life.
It would be better for you to learn proper technique, rather than to learn how to readjust your sights to compensate for bad technique.

But what do I know?


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Refer to my post # 14. When you dry fire practice properly and often you can get away from some of the reactions that you have with live ammo at the range. The Laserlyte cartridge that i mentioned above will give you accurate feedback instantly on your dryfire practice and without any stress. The cost is around 300 9mm cartridges and will last for 3 years with a warranty.

You can get reactive targets that work with the laser, but I also like to use random targets of reflective tape in the shop. When you hit them they pop like a flash bulb.

GW

P.S. If you concentrate on dry fire for a couple of weeks and save your ammo, you will shoot a lot better when you do go to the range for live fire.


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## chip2 (Apr 8, 2015)

Steve,

Point taken. Thanks for the advice. You've been shooting a lot longer than I have. I'm sure you know what you are talking about. I'll give it a try.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Hey, chip...
Report back, after you've had some practice time, and let us know how you did.
(I'm just chock full of useful advice. The rest of us are, too.)

But seriously, folks...
Holding tight and hard, and isolating your index finger, should do the trick.


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## chip2 (Apr 8, 2015)

Thought I would post a progress report. 

The hard grip and trigger finger isolation seem to be working. I use a round target with a 1" bulls eye and a 2" ten-ring. At my last range session, taking my time, I blew the bulls eye out of the target at 5 yards, and I shot a 10 shot group from 7 yards that scored 99/100. I would post a picture, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. When I can get all 10 shots inside the ten-ring consistently I will move to 10 yards.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Nice work!
Good for you.

I'm glad that my advice helped you.

I don't know where your shooting skills are going, but no matter if there's bullseye target shooting or any self-defense-type work ahead, I think that you might consider reviewing your pistol's _zero_.
(Without wanting to patronize, _zero_, in this case, is defined as "the point where the bullet's path crosses your gunsights' line of sight": That is, the exact point at which your gun hits precisely where you're looking.)

Generally speaking, most pistols come from the factory zeroed for 25 yards. Therefore, they hit low from the muzzle to about three yards, right on at about seven yards, high at about 15 yards, and spot on at 25 yards. In all cases, the difference is small: only an inch or a little bit more.
If you contemplate self-defense-style shooting, that 25-yard zero is probably "good enough for folk music," and needs no improvement. But it will make it look as if you're shooting in the wrong place, when you use a bullseye target at distances other than 25 yards.

So, now you have to make a choice: Target paper-punching, or self-defense practice.
Then, you my find that you will need to adjust your gun's zero. Or not.

Hint: At about seven yards, you might aim for the very bottom edge of the black bullseye, and see where your shots land in relation to your easy-to-discern aiming point. Self-defense shooting usually takes place at less than 10 yards, I've been told.
'Nother Hint: A bullseye-shooter's 25-yard zero is set up such that aiming at the very bottom edge of the black will cause hits to appear in the black's center. A self-defense shooter's 25-yard zero should instead probably cause hits at exactly the point of aim.


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

chip2 said:


> I watched a video by Adam Painchaud, director of the Sig Sauer Academy. He suggested loading one round into the gun, aiming and shooting, and when the gun cycles, doing a dry fire for the second shot. When I did that, I actually saw the front sight dip. That's the first time I've been able to see what it looks like when I jerk the trigger due to anticipating the recoil. No wonder I've been shooting low! After that, I slowed down, relaxed my shooting hand a bit (I was gripping too tightly), and concentrated on a slow, steady trigger press. As a result, my groups tightened up considerably, and I was able to shoot 99/100 from 7 yards. Next I'll try increasing the distance to maybe 10 yards, then 15 yards, etc and see if I can maintain decent groupings.
> 
> Eventually I want to be able to shoot a decent group, defined as 4" or less, at 25 yards. What should my pass criteria be for moving on to the next distance?


not sure why--but recently I have notice that I dip the muzzle before I fire. I bought a laser cartridge and try to keep my mind on a slow trigger pull--it fixes the issue


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *chip2*;
> 
> The "secret" of trigger control is something that my dancer-wife calls "isolation."
> Loosening your grip is not the real answer. It'll take you in the wrong direction. It may even eventually cause your groups to open up again.
> ...


per usual Steve is right on the money

I have started lightening my shooting hand grip -- I use my support hand to tighten my grip while putting some rearwards isometric pressure on my shooting hand and the gun--the loose trigger finger-- a proper rearward push (like pushing a button) onthe trigger and of course a slow trigger push-- and my HK P30 makes me look like a pro-- it will eventually happen with all my guns I hope

happy shooting


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

boatdoc173 said:


> not sure why--but recently I have notice that I dip the muzzle before I fire. I bought a laser cartridge and try to keep my mind on a *slow trigger pull*--it fixes the issue. [emphasis added]


Yes, exactly!
Slow, smooth practice results in quick, accurate shooting.
Slow, smooth practice. Not quick or fast.

Quickness comes from lots of practice, and happens "automatically" as time goes by. ("You must remember this...be smooth and you won't miss...on this you can rely...")


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

boatdoc173 said:


> not sure why--but recently I have notice that* I dip the muzzle before I fire*. I bought a laser cartridge and try to keep my mind on a slow trigger pull--it fixes the issue


Anticipation, anticipation
Is makin' me late
Is keepin' me waitin'

Carly Simon


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yes, exactly!
> Slow, smooth practice results in quick, accurate shooting.
> Slow, smooth practice. Not quick or fast.
> 
> Quickness comes from lots of practice, and happens "automatically" as time goes by. ("You must remember this...be smooth and you won't miss...on this you can rely...")


Same advice for golfing, baseball , etc . 
Especially golfing. I'm a witness n participant to the slow n smooth equals fast n accurate.
It pertains to many stress related sports, etc

GREAT ADVICE


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

The dancer wife sounds intriguing, usually means there's a dancer husband. 

Congratulations , sounds like a soul mate


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pic said:


> The dancer wife sounds intriguing, usually means there's a dancer husband...


Nope.
"I don't dance. Don't ask me."

I don't dance. Jean doesn't write. We're the perfect pair: Our skills are complementary.
(Except that nowadays she can probably outshoot me.)


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Nope.
> "I don't dance. Don't ask me."
> 
> I don't dance. Jean doesn't write. We're the perfect pair: Our skills are complementary.
> (Except that nowadays she can probably outshoot me.)


i don't dance either, come to think of it,,not much of a writer either, way to make a guy feel useless. Lol.
:smt1099
Pic


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

As far as eliminating flinch, I have taught a few new shooters by having them exaggerate their 'follow-through.' 

The shot is not over until the bullet has cleared the muzzle, so you need to remain still for a millisecond or so after the firing pin hits the primer. I tell them to pretend that the bullet is like a wire guided missile that they can direct to the bulls eye by holding the sights on the target. They cannot, of course, and this is an exaggeration of how long one needs to hold, but it works most of the time. If that is too goofy, just try to keep holding your sight picture on the target during recoil.

Also, if you are using a correct combat grip (both thumbs forward, push-pull, etc.), your strong-side hand doesn't have to grip as much as it has to push the grip handle forward. In other words, the off-side hand will be gripping your strong-side fingers and squeezing them into the grip handle, while pulling the grip handle into the heel of your strong-side hand. If you're doing it right, you can lock up like a vise and your strong-side thumb won't even really be gripping the gun - it will just lay against the side of the frame. This seems to help isolate your trigger finger from the part of your hand that is holding the pistol.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Oh, I dunno...
When I'm shooting a 1911, my strong-side thumb is always pressing downward on the safety lever.
This accomplishes two things:
1. It makes damn' sure that the safety is decisively "off."
2. It supplies useful downward pressure, which helps control recoil and get me back on target quickly.

(Of course, it does one not-so-useful thing, too: It makes pressure on the grip safety a sometime thing. So I've disabled my 1911 grip safeties.)


I strongly suggest that you need to adopt one, and only one, of these many suggestions, and continue to use only it. If you continually experiment, you will screw-up anything that you've already learned using a single technique.


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