# shots to take a man down



## tahsin (Jul 9, 2012)

How many shots form a 9mm handgun does it take (shots to the chest and stomach) to bring down a man? How quickly will a man fall to the ground after 4 shots are fired? DOes he fall backwards like in the movies or does he fall forward?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

This is an impossible question to answer for the simple fact that no two shootings are the same. The list of variables is nearly limitless which equates to no guarantees. Be suspect of any definitive answers on this one.


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## Overkill0084 (Nov 28, 2010)

Between 1 & 100. 
Too many variables. 
Shootee? Ammo type? Location of hits? Distance? Type of gun? etc.


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## Hurryin' Hoosier (Jan 8, 2011)

tahsin said:


> How many shots form a 9mm handgun does it take (shots to the chest and stomach) to bring down a man? How quickly will a man fall to the ground after 4 shots are fired? DOes he fall backwards like in the movies or does he fall forward?


Interesting sort of question for a first post. Have something particular in mind?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

That is correct. It depends on where the shots hit at exactly - the person being shot, how close they are to you, their state of mind, their health, if any drugs are in their system... If they are a person that gets angrier when hurt, or the type of person who passes out at the sight of blood/paranoid about their health... All sorts of other questions... 

No answer to this question. 9mm is fine for self defense, however. All rounds are pour manstoppers, and the tiny bit of size difference really makes little difference in real world statistics (even though everyone likes to look at the gelatin tests)


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

30 and they still won't fall.This reminded me of a funny shooting back in the 80's.Some dirtbag broke into an elderly lady's house through the front door after being warned she was armed.She unloaded a 9 in him and dumped a reload in him,(the actual round count escapes me now).When the cops arived they asked why she shot him so many times and her answer was he didn't fall.Apparently when she shot him he fell back on the door and got hooked on a coat hook,so he couldn't go down.I never saw the original article on it but thought it was pretty funny.

These guys are right,could be one,could be 10,could be he makes it to you and kills you.The Mozambique drill helps avoid him making it to you if you are quick and accurate enough.Doesn't really matter what handgun caliber either,serious drugs don't let pain register and 100lbs of fat can stop a bullet before it reaches anything worthwhile.That last one is why I feel a 380 is better than nothing but not a great choice without understanding the limitations of your choice.


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## Tnic (Jul 5, 2012)

Just one shot with a JHP .45ACP center mass hit. :mrgreen: :smt1099


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Tnic said:


> Just one shot with a JHP .45ACP center mass hit. :mrgreen: :smt1099


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

For more info on this topic, see this thread:

http://www.handgunforum.net/home-de...84-alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power.html


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

with 4 shots the best possible outcome would be a nueral shock shutdown which could occur within 1-2 seconds.But like others said-too many variables for an absolute answer.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

In the early 1990s, I attended a police academy in Louisiana. We had to watch a training video of two officers (one male and one female) fight it out with a guy. The criminal attacked the two officers and was high on drugs (I do not remember what drug - its been a LONG time since I saw it). But, the male officer had a 357 magnum revolver - loaded with 357 magnum. He shot the criminal 6 times in the head as they fought over the gun. The criminal kept fighting... The cop had to keep fighting inside of a small bedroom, reload his revolver, and shoot the guy about 5 times before he stopped.

The female cop had been knocked out, and the male cop was beat up pretty bad.

The criminal was a deadman with those headshots, but he was so high and so worked out that he still could fight as he was dying. Typical? No. But, ya never know...


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## SouthSideScubaSteve (Jun 20, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> For more info on this topic, see this thread:
> 
> http://www.handgunforum.net/home-de...84-alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power.html


Very interesting article & data; thanks for posting the link to the original thread!

It makes some intersting points and kind of reinforces what seemed intuitively obvious to me (if I ever have to shoot someone to defend myself or my family, the best plan is to keep putting rounds on target until they drop or overtake/overwhelm me)


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> In the early 1990s, I attended a police academy in Louisiana. We had to watch a training video of two officers (one male and one female) fight it out with a guy. The criminal attacked the two officers and was high on drugs (I do not remember what drug - its been a LONG time since I saw it). But, the male officer had a 357 magnum revolver - loaded with 357 magnum. He shot the criminal 6 times in the head as they fought over the gun. The criminal kept fighting... The cop had to keep fighting inside of a small bedroom, reload his revolver, and shoot the guy about 5 times before he stopped.
> 
> The female cop had been knocked out, and the male cop was beat up pretty bad.
> 
> The criminal was a deadman with those headshots, but he was so high and so worked out that he still could fight as he was dying. Typical? No. But, ya never know...


I think you're referring to Steve Chaney featured in *"Ultimate Survivor".*

His partner, Linda Lawrence was killed during the arrest, and if I recall both guns were loaded with .38s.

Chaney was involved in a second shooting later in carrier and ended it with one well place shot.

I saw the video in the last year or so, some powerful stuff.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

VAMarine said:


> I think you're referring to Steve Chaney featured in *"Ultimate Survivor".*
> 
> His partner, Linda Lawrence was killed during the arrest, and if I recall both guns were loaded with .38s.
> 
> ...


Also, on the topic of amazing caliber failures, I've found these three to be quite informative.

Guns, Guns, & More Gosh Darn Guns: An End to the Caliber Debate?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

VAMarine said:


> I think you're referring to Steve Chaney featured in *"Ultimate Survivor".*
> 
> His partner, Linda Lawrence was killed during the arrest, and if I recall both guns were loaded with .38s.
> 
> ...


Interesting story - I just read the link you provided.

But, that wasn't the one we saw on tv at that academy. They were deputy sheriff's. I remember the male officer specifically had 357 magnum rounds in his revolver (we talked about the situation afterwards - and the disbelief of the rounds this guy took to the head), and the female deputy did survive. And, it occurred in a trailer home, I believe.

The ones in the link you provided were deputy US Marshalls.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> Interesting story - I just read the link you provided.
> 
> But, that wasn't the one we saw on tv at that academy. They were deputy sheriff's. I remember the male officer specifically had 357 magnum rounds in his revolver (we talked about the situation afterwards - and the disbelief of the rounds this guy took to the head), and the female deputy did survive. And, it occurred in a trailer home, I believe.
> 
> The ones in the link you provided were deputy US Marshalls.


Actually the article covers more, in this case( Chaney/Lawerence) were two Baton Rouge officers. I'm getting mixed results on .357 or .38, some sources list each...either way, the case I'm referencing was very, very close to what you were describing.

Bad guy took a point blank to the head and 6 to the chest and was still fighting.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Hmm. was that lower in the page?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Shipwreck said:


> Hmm. was that lower in the page?


2nd to last paragraph:



> The three other police officers in the video also exemplify the determination to live: Kenyon Tuthill, a cop in Suffolk County, New York, who was blinded and disfigured by a traffic violator who shot him point-blank in the face; Mike Buckingham of the Washington State Patrol, whose ears and skin were burned off when he crashed during a high-speed pursuit and was trapped inside his burning car; and* Steve Chaney of the Baton Rouge police department, who watched his partner get shot with her own gun by a huge, "superhuman" burglary suspect who withstood ten bullets before dying.* Ultimate Survivors recently won a Golden Eagle, the top award from CINE, the Council on International Nontheatrical Events. The Golden Eagle makes the video eligible for the 1992 Academy Awards, in the documentary category.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Its been so long ago, I don't remember everything in the video.


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

As to which way a person falls when shot, seems I read long ago of a study. The highest percentage fell forward when shot or hit by shell fragments. As I recall there is a tendancy for the knees to buckle resulting in the forward falling.

This is born out by combat footage from WW II showing men falling after being hit by various weapons.

Can't imagine why the study was instigated.

Bob Wright


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## Ala Tom (Apr 1, 2011)

I have read many of these reports, including the coroner's report on shot effectiveness. They are all rather in definite. There are just too many variables. But we must choose a caliber and weapon that gives _US_ the best chance of an effective stop. That means, first getting a gun that we like to shoot and can shoot well, regardless of what others think about it. We're all different. Then I advocate, as an engineer with some experience in impact damage, using the caliber that gives the most muzzle energy with a bullet that has demonstrated reasonable expansion performance. No body can control an impact event completely. If you can hit a specific target on the body, that goes a long way to improving the effectiveness. But given the aspects of a violent confrontation, that cannot be guaranteed. The reason energy is important is because it is non-directional. It can do harm in various directions before it is dissipated. The momentum estimate commonly used as a "power" calculation is too directional to be very helpful. The energy value also indicates the ability to shatter bones or other semi-rigid body parts sending shrapnel through the body. With a powerful cartridge like a .45, .357 or .40, you can expect a chest shot to punch through the sternum and damage the heart and lungs. In other parts of the body they may punch through the body and do damage beyond it. i don't think we should be overly concerned about that. To protect ourselves and our loved ones, our main concern is to stop the BG. My choice for home defense is a .40 S&W. I would choose a 9 mm if a small gun was needed and if I could shoot it well enough to be sure of accurate second or third shots.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

We all have read and heard all these studies of actual shooting and alot can be learned from these.There are so many variables in each case.Adrenaline is a powerful drug and when dumped into the system it produces amazing results.Here is a personal case to back up my point.I was a shift supervisor in a small bakery.I was cleaning a high speed metal conveyor of cake batter when my hand got caught in it.There was no one around me and no e-stop in reach.I grabbed the conveyor and stopped it and removed my hand.It had to be an adrenaline dump as no other explanation could be used.The conveyor was suppossedly impossible to stop it like I did.And this story also explains why a high pain tolerance is a reason for gunshot recipients to keep going.After calling my asst.,I went to hospital,had one finger reset and patched up.Went back to work and the only time I missed was the amputation of the finger and dr visits.I lost the finger after 3 failed surgeries and no longer can flip anyone off.Three days after accident I had to replace a fan belt on my truck and had to remove 1 motor mount and lift engine to get it on.The mind can make the body do amazing things.If a suspect has a strong will and high pain tolerance he can suck up alot of rounds.I believe my story has to do with not being coddled and told to suck it up.This is why the brain is your most dangerous weapon.


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## hemmigremmie (Jan 23, 2008)

Im a little confused as to why my question about has anyone ever had to shoot someone and wat was the outcome question was deleted which is a real world thing that can happen but this is allowed???? Just curious. HG


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Police Officer Linda A. Lawrence, Baton Rouge City Police Department, Louisiana


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## Tnic (Jul 5, 2012)

VAMarine said:


> Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
> 
> For more info on this topic, see this thread:
> 
> http://www.handgunforum.net/home-de...84-alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power.html


I was of course speaking tongue in cheek.

As others have said there are just too many variables, one cannot give a definitive answer to the question. This is where the phrase "keep shooting till you're out of ammo or the target is down" comes into play.


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## tahsin (Jul 9, 2012)

I'll be training with a real gun soon, but the only gun I'm allowed to train with is a .22. Thats what I have in mind when I asked the question actually. I asked for 9mm advice cause well I was curious. From what I've heard a .22 will just make the guy angrier...


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

hemmigremmie said:


> Im a little confused as to why my question about has anyone ever had to shoot someone and wat was the outcome question was deleted which is a real world thing that can happen but this is allowed???? Just curious. HG


After reviewing the mod log of this thread I can say no posts were deleted, however there is all ready a thread on that topic eslewhere.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

More humans and animals are killed with the .22.It is not an ideal weapon but it will do if it is in your hand.Just as any caliber you need to place not a round but rounds into a vital area.I have personally killed many hogs with a single .22 round and some just wont go down.That is why a .22 is one of proffessional hit men favorite weapons.


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## hemmigremmie (Jan 23, 2008)

It was blocked or something. I was told it wasnt appropriate?? Dont know. No biggie. Just wondered. Hg


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## numbertwo (May 28, 2012)

tahsin said:


> I'll be training with a real gun soon, but the only gun I'm allowed to train with is a .22. Thats what I have in mind when I asked the question actually. I asked for 9mm advice cause well I was curious. From what I've heard a .22 will just make the guy angrier...


Do you plan on shooting it out with the hulk? lol


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## sonja (Sep 16, 2011)

"How many shots form a 9mm handgun does it take (shots to the chest and stomach) to bring down a man? How quickly will a man fall to the ground after 4 shots are fired? DOes he fall backwards like in the movies or does he fall forward?"

There is a reason you are told to shoot until the threat is neutralized. As has been said by many others -- you just never know.

How big is the person, how angry, how high or drunk, how well trained, how active at the time you shot, etc., etc., etc.?

What did you shoot him or her with? Lead, FMJ, hollow point, soft point, etc.? What was bullet placement? 

I suspect the variables are nearly endless. 

So, keep shooting until the threat is removed -- or, he/she gets to you, and you are "extinguished".


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## jdw68 (Nov 5, 2011)

Well agent 007 James Bond used a variety of guns in his long career, but there were a couple of movies in which he used a Walther P5 9mm (Never Say Never Again) and a Walther P99 9mm (Tomorrow Never Dies). It's hard to imagine that 007 would ever need to shoot someone more than once


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

well,James Bond is hollywood and is not real world.I have read alot of accounts where suspects were shot 1 time in a area that hit no vitals or bones or anything of significance and fell incapacitated.Cause ,mental voodoo.We as a generation -the younger people-are so programmed by movies and TV that the mind tells me I been hit and fall.There was one officer I read about that interrupted a robbery and the suspect fired 1 .22 round.The officer felt a stinging sensation and fell.He pulled his weapon and fired 4 rounds killing him.When he searched himself he found no wound.But he felt the sting.Voodoo.


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## jdw68 (Nov 5, 2011)

skullfr said:


> well,James Bond is hollywood and is not real world.I have read alot of accounts where suspects were shot 1 time in a area that hit no vitals or bones or anything of significance and fell incapacitated.Cause ,mental voodoo.We as a generation -the younger people-are so programmed by movies and TV that the mind tells me I been hit and fall.There was one officer I read about that interrupted a robbery and the suspect fired 1 .22 round.The officer felt a stinging sensation and fell.He pulled his weapon and fired 4 rounds killing him.When he searched himself he found no wound.But he felt the sting.Voodoo.


What James Bond isn't real? What will you tell me next? There's no Santa Claus  Just joking with you. My above 007 post was just a joke also.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

sorry to burst your bubble no santy claus


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## RugerP95 (Jul 11, 2012)

That's just a weird question....??


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## sonja (Sep 16, 2011)

No Santa? James Bond not real? Burst my bubble, will you!!

Now, what can I believe in -- especially since I can't trust my super-duper-Glock17 to dispatch bad guys with one shot.

No respect, I tell you, no respect!


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## warbird1 (Apr 17, 2012)

To be serious, in 1979 I became a police officer in a city in Georgia. The month before that an officer was killed by a single .22 cal bullet. He was chasing a felon down an alley. The felon found concealment and waited on the officer. The officer was wearing a vest however he had both arms extended out holding his revolver. As he came even with the felon in hiding the felon fired his .22 cal handgun once. The bullet entered thru the officers side and entered his heart killing him instantly. Freak things happen.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

tahsin said:


> How many shots form a 9mm handgun does it take (shots to the chest and stomach) to bring down a man? How quickly will a man fall to the ground after 4 shots are fired? DOes he fall backwards like in the movies or does he fall forward?


Soooooo many variable to be considered here. There is no "one" right answer.


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