# Looking for New Pistol



## HouTex1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

I've had a Browning Hi-Power since the mid-80's and I love the gun. I hardly shot it over the last 20 years and I recently started shooting again. I've been to the range three times over the last month and the Hi-Power is shooting very well. 

I've got the bug to buy another pistol--something more modern and possibly something I may want to carry one day. Today I shot a Glock 19 4th Gen. and I shot it very poorly. I traded off shooting the Glock and the Hi-Power and the difference is night and day. I probably put half the shots outside of a 7 inch circle at 25 feet with the Glock vs. all of my shots within a 7 inch circle at 25 feet, and a couple in the bullseye, with my Hi-Power. 

I don't believe it's the gun (it was a rental at the range), but I'm amazed at how poorly I shot the Glock. It's a smaller gun than my Hi-Power, but I shoot my wife's S&W Shield just fine--about as well as I shoot my Hi-Power.

This has me re-thinking my need to get another gun. Any thoughts?


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

HINT: Your Browning P-35, 'Hi-Power' IS a modern pistol - A damned fine one! 

There is, also, a world of difference between Glock's crappy, 'Safe-Action' striker-fired trigger mechanisms, and the much more expensive and better-made single-action trigger mechanisms on a P-35. 

If - if - I were to sell any of my Glocks tomorrow morning I would NOT get back the money I've already put into them; however, when I sold three P-35's awhile ago I got two to two and a half times what I had originally paid for them. (Bought them in the early 70's, and took very good care of them.)


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## HouTex1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

Glock Doctor said:


> HINT: Your Browning P-35, 'Hi-Power' IS a modern pistol - A damned fine one!
> 
> There is, also, a world of difference between Glock's crappy, 'Safe-Action' strike-fired trigger mechanisms, and the much more expensive and better-made single-action trigger mechanisms on a P-35.
> 
> If - if - I were to sell any of my Glocks tomorrow morning I would NOT get back the money I've already put into them; however, when I sold three P-35's awhile ago I got two to two and a half times what I had originally paid for them. (Bought them in the early 70's, and took very good care of them.)


Thanks for the love for the Hi-Power. I really love the gun. I paid $385 for my Hi-Power in 1986 while I was a law student! I see them online for sale for about $900 and up but I don't imagine I'll ever sell it. It will end up with my grandkids when I'm gone. Hopefully--I don't have any yet.


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## olroy (Aug 29, 2013)

> HINT: Your Browning P-35, 'Hi-Power' IS a modern pistol - A damned fine one!


Starting in 1971, and for the next 20 years, my P-35 rode on my hip or in a shoulder holster almost every day, on and off-duty. Thousands of rounds went thru it, as I served as range-master and firearms instructor for the two dept's I worked for. Wore out three sets of Pachmayr grips, and had it rebuilt once. The weapon only failed to function while I was developing a range load to supply the dept. Once I worked up to a powder charge that was heavy enough to cycle the action, the FTF's stopped. Given a properly designed holster, and correct dress, the P-35 is not hard to conceal. IMHO, you will look long and hard to find a better firearm than the venerable P-35.


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## HouTex1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

Olroy, thanks. I plan to try the S&W M&P and perhaps the Glock 17, but unless they can at least come close to the performance of the Hi-Power (in my hands) I don't see the point in buying another pistol. I was expecting to shoot the Glock 19 way better than I did and if a pistol can't come close to the Hi-Power then I don't see the point in buying it.

edit: And I love my Pachmayr grips.


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## olroy (Aug 29, 2013)

> edit: And I love my Pachmayr grips.


Me too! That's why I kept replacing them when they wore out!:smt023 BTW, it was the knurling on my Kel-lite that wore them out!


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

You should try the Springfield XDM or S&W M&P


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

A final word about the striker-fired triggers on most polymer frame pistols: They suck! When the point was finally driven home to me that I was carrying heirloom quality pistols for general self-defense I realized that the time had arrived for me to: (1) Begin divesting myself of a lot of the expensive hardware I was inventorying; and (2) find something comparatively cheap, serviceable, and up to the task (and risks) of daily carry. This is how I, first, became involved with Glock pistols.

What an experience! Not one of the three Glocks I've purchased lived up to either Glock's (acquired) reputation or ongoing (and peculiar) popularity. Straight out of the chute I learned that there is a tremendous amount of: advertising hype, 'plebeian prejudice', and just plain good old-fashioned bullcrap associated with Glock's sensational plastic, 'wunder pistol'.

In fact I still remember that early 80's picture of Chuck Taylor lobbing a first generation G-17 into a lake with the comment, '_This is where I think it really belongs!_' Before too long, though, the Glock, 'advertising machine' and the favorable exchange rate between the Euro and the USD proved to be successful in changing Chuck's mind! (I've got too good a memory, huh!) 

I've never purchased a Glock pistol that actually worked right out of it's, 'clamshell box'; and THIS is how I learned to become a, 'Glock Doctor'. (Which is a thoroughly facetious screen name that, out of pure frustration, I decided to apply to myself.) Normally I wouldn't admit this; but, it's Sunday; and this morning, why not! When I made the switch from P-35's and Colt 1911's to my first G-21 - without exaggeration - it took me the better part of 18 months to get used to and become truly, 'gunfighting competent' with that damned plastic Glock! The factory-stock trigger was an abomination, and nothing like the Behlert custom-tuned triggers that I was used to.

Worse, both of my G-21's came with the original #4256 trigger bars in them. These Glocks often refused to go into battery, and were extremely dangerous to operate with, 'full house' self-defense ammo! My repeated complaints on Glock Talk only served to get me ridiculed, and repeated calls to Glock, Smyrna provided me with an opportunity to listen to more pure, unmitigated bullhooey than anyone else had ever dared throw at me, before, in my entire life! Trying to get Glock personnel to admit that there was something deeply and inherently wrong with the company's G-21's proved to be an entirely lost cause!

It was a market stalemate; and me and my G-21's ended up screwed! Nobody at the factory cared; and, if you complained all you got was one or more expensive shipping bills, several weeks without your gun, and then cynically bullshitted all over again! After that NYC Secret Service Agent had his G-21 blow up in his face and permanently damage his eyesight, I really began to worry, shelved my Glocks, and wouldn't even try to fire them with, 'range quality' ammo.

As is their wont the factory chose to, 'stonewall' on the very real problems with their 45 ACP (and 10mm) pistols. If the Portland Police Bureau, and the Georgia State Patrol hadn't filed a class-action law suit against Glock, GmbH/Inc. nothing would have changed. These police agencies finally succeeded in forcing Glock, GmbH to stop bullshitting them, and fix their faulty 45 ACP and 10mm pistols. Happily, Glock's civilian purchasers, also, benefited from the out-of-court settlement; and, once I learned about this turn of events, I recontacted the factory, and my Glock problems were solved! If this hadn't happened in the fortuitous way that it did, I very much doubt that I'd own any Glock pistol, today!

Probably the single most influential reason, 'Why' I became a, 'Glock Doctor' is because I was (intellectually) drowning in Glock factory bullcrap! What it came down to is that I, either, learned how to fix my own Glock pistols; or they weren't going to be fixed - Period! After more than eleven years I've become genuinely competent at improving and adjusting Glock's cheap striker-fired trigger mechanisms; but, you know, sometimes I find myself wondering if any of today's successive generations of pistol owners are ever going to know (or understand) the superlative performance, the smoothness, and clean breaking triggers of the old Smith & Wessons, Colts, and Browning pistols that I, literally, grew up with?

Times have changed; and high quality pistol triggers have (while not completely) for the most part, 'gone the way of the dodo bird'. Worse, modern gun buyers are so heavily influenced by the power of today's advertising and the overwhelming presence of loud popular opinions on the Internet that YOU CAN'T TALK TO THEM! Just like modern concepts and thinking about, 'the true nature of God' the younger generations don't get it; and, by all indications, they ain't ever going to get it, either!

If, 'modern' means, 'plastic pistols' then I'm going to have to agree that Colt 1911's and Browning P-35's are, in fact, NOT, 'modern pistols'. The point I would make is, 'Why' would anyone who knows and can afford better want to commit himself and his personal well-being to anybody's polymer frame pistol? The, 'reliability thing' is - in large part and all too often - A MYTH! True, today I've got three highly reliable Glock pistols; but it, also, took me years and hundreds of dollars in additional expense in order to make them this way.

The Glock pistols that I often carry with me, everyday, only look like Glock pistols. In fact the most common remark I hear when somebody hands one of my Glocks back to me after shooting it is, something like, '_That's NOT a Glock_'; or, '_What did you do to it_'? Personally, I think it's valid to say that most young people, today, are never going to know (or, perhaps, even understand) the great nice 'n clean, and nice 'n tight pistol triggers their fathers and grandfathers grew up with.

On the other hand it is, equally, a testament to human ingenuity and physical reflexes that so many people - including myself - are able to adjust and perform competently with a plastic pistol that my generation and its peers would have considered to be only slightly better than a Mattel toy! Glocks aren't just ugly; they, and other plastic pistols like them, are simply low tech. They're fast, easy, and cheap to produce. What is more, these expedient plastic pistols are able to be sold at an exorbitantly high markup that helps to offset the devaluation of the American dollar and helps gun manufacturers to reduce the ravages of ongoing economic inflation while continuing to, 'turn a profit'.

Exempli gratia: Why is, 'limp wristing' such a terrific big deal with a Glock pistol? It wasn't until the introduction of Glock pistols into the American marketplace that this term became an everyday part of the American pistol shooter's lexicon. In fact, in more than 60 years of using pistols and teaching pistol shooting, I NEVER BEFORE saw or heard of so much emphasis placed on the phenomenon of, 'limp wristing' a pistol! Why has this happened? I think it's because the older, tighter locking pistols that my own and preceding generations of pistol shooters used were NOT susceptible to the modern day phenomenon of, 'limp wristing'. It's Glock's lightweight frame, and extremely loose, modified Browning, slide/barrel lockup - A marginally functional lockup that is cheap, easy to produce and, otherwise, barely adequate for its intended task - that causes the modern day, plastic pistol, shooting problem of, so-called, 'limp wristing'.

These are the real reasons, 'Why' - other than utilitarian concerns - I have no real interest in going, 'modern' with my handguns. What especially bothers me is that with today's, 'dirty political tricks', opportunistic and frequently obsessive law enforcement, and the financial stranglehold the international banking community has on American manufacturing, none of us may be able to continue to either afford or constructively use shoddy (but, not cheap) plastic firearms in the foreseeable future. The Obama Administration - like the Clinton Administration before it - isn't losing the, 'war on guns' in America.

Antithetical government administrators have become, 'past masters' at exploiting every social (or moral) upheaval in American society in order to change American gun ownership and use, FOREVER! When you add everything up, they're effectively winning the, so-called, 'war on guns'. As audacious and morally reprehensible as, 'Operation Fast 'n Furious' was it's just the tip of the iceberg! The new political ploy is to use a variety of federal agencies in order to harass firearm and ammunition manufacturers into arbitrary compliance with, and submission to myriad federal rules and regulations, or else face financial extinction! (Which is the ultimate goal, anyway.)

The overwhelming power and authority of these modern federal government regulations are the like of which no major American corporation has ever before been required to adhere to. If you don't believe me, all ya got 'a do is take a ride on, 'I-95' through New Jersey. The stink from the oil refineries in and around Elizabeth Seaport and Port Newark will have you closing your car windows, turning off your car's air recycling system; and, on many days, absolutely gagging!

(What you can count on, however, is that - no matter how filthy and pollution-spewing one of the, 'Seven Sisters' oil manufacturing facilities is - absolutely no federal agencies like the BATF, or the Environmental Protection Agency are, ever, going to raid anybody's oil manufacturing plant. Firearm and ammunition manufacturers, though? They're now fair game!)


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## Skinsfan (Apr 5, 2014)

@Glock Doctor: What do you think of CZ 75's? EAA Witness Match?


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

I think Glocks and CZs are both great guns. I like to compete with a CZ, but one of the guys I shoot with just made Master in USPSA shooting a Glock. I usually carry a Glock 19. In a defensive situation, I want the consistent trigger. I am not comfortable with cocked and locked. My problem is probably irrational. If I needed a new compact carry gun, I would look at a CZ-P07. But I'd also look at a compact Berretta. If I was in a "war zone", where open carry is almost a requirement, (Think post Katrina like disaster) I would probably carry my SAR K2 45. Lots of big bullets and it looks baddass. No need to be the toughest guy on the block if you look like you are.


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## HouTex1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

shaolin said:


> You should try the Springfield XDM or S&W M&P


I just tried the S&W M&P and I shot it fairly well. Almost as well as my Hi-Power. So I bought one. Can't wait to shoot it.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Skinsfan said:


> @Glock Doctor: What do you think of CZ 75's? EAA Witness Match?


So, you would like my personal opinion?

OK, I really like the CZ 75B's - Especially the CZ 75, SP-01, 'Tactical'. I've, also, heard some nice compliments about the CZ P-09 from a friend in Israel. He's a cop in Jerusalem and carries a CZ P-09 while on duty. You might find this thread interesting: CZ P-09, or CZ-75 SP-01 Phantom? - AR15.COM

(I think the CZ, 'Phantom' has been discontinued, and replaced by the newer tactical model mentioned above.)

Here's a CZ clone that has been earning itself a decent reputation: CANIK S-120 9MM MATTE CHROME FINISH 17+1 $449.00 SHIPS FREE The price seems unbeatable in today's marketplace, and especially for a steel frame pistol!

Personally, I'm not a big fan of EAA pistols.


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## Skinsfan (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks, Doc. 

I was interested in the CZ partly because I've read it has a long trigger reach, which I really need (just wish I knew HOW long it is)! Selection is limited where I live. 

My new Glock 21 full size is not long enough in the reach to be totally comfortable, but it's close. The inside of the bottom of the trigger guard needs smoothing, though...rubs skin off if I get low on the trigger. Some of that QC issue we hear...mag release barely works, too.

Thanks for the info!

The Canik looks like the EAA I mentioned, which has a SWEET, light trigger! Thanks for the lead...I'll check into them.


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## HouTex1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

Shot the new S&W M&P9 yesterday and I like it a lot. I had some decent groups for the first time out. The trigger needs some getting used to though. I'll give it 1,000 rounds or so and see if it gets better.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I'd try the Beretta PX4 Storm, it would seem in my mind a closer comparison to your Browning Highpower. If you're looking for a light weight polymer pistol.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

HouTex1962 said:


> Shot the new S&W M&P9 yesterday and I like it a lot. I had some decent groups for the first time out. The trigger needs some getting used to though. I'll give it 1,000 rounds or so and see if it gets better.


If you want a polymer frame pistol, the M&P is an excellent choice. The rather stiff and creaky trigger can be significantly improved by the addition of a trigger kit from Apex Tactical.

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid54.html

(If you like, Apex can do the work for ya!)


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

HouTex1962 said:


> Shot the new S&W M&P9 yesterday and I like it a lot. I had some decent groups for the first time out. The trigger needs some getting used to though. I'll give it 1,000 rounds or so and see if it gets better.


It won't get any better. You'll do well to get a good aftermarket firing pin and replace the factory pin. It will make all the difference in the world. APEX is one brand of choice. The M&Ps are a fine pistol, as are the Glocks. I carry the Glock 19 Gen 4 and shoot quite well with it. I also shoot well with the M&P Shield, 9 and 45. It's just what you're going to be most comfortable with, but you're really going to be hard pressed to find a finer pistol than your BHP. It is my favorite too!


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

olroy said:


> Starting in 1971, and for the next 20 years, my P-35 rode on my hip or in a shoulder holster almost every day, on and off-duty. Thousands of rounds went thru it, as I served as range-master and firearms instructor for the two dept's I worked for. Wore out three sets of Pachmayr grips, and had it rebuilt once. The weapon only failed to function while I was developing a range load to supply the dept. Once I worked up to a powder charge that was heavy enough to cycle the action, the FTF's stopped. Given a properly designed holster, and correct dress, the P-35 is not hard to conceal. IMHO, you will look long and hard to find a better firearm than the venerable P-35.


What is your experience with firing the +P rounds through the P-35? I've read mixed reports, but a lot advise not shooting the +P JHPs through the BHP.


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## HouTex1962 (Mar 24, 2014)

denner said:


> I'd try the Beretta PX4 Storm, it would seem in my mind a closer comparison to your Browning Highpower. If you're looking for a light weight polymer pistol.


See post 11 above. I already bought the M&P and I like it. I may decide to get the trigger work done later. I'm happy with my purchase. And I'll never get rid of the Hi-Power.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

0.


HouTex1962 said:


> See post 11 above. I already bought the M&P and I like it. I may decide to get the trigger work done later. I'm happy with my purchase. And I'll never get rid of the Hi-Power.


Gotcha, my overlook, I believe you made a great choice by the way, have fun.


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## warbird1 (Apr 17, 2012)

HouTex1962 said:


> Thanks for the love for the Hi-Power. I really love the gun. I paid $385 for my Hi-Power in 1986 while I was a law student! I see them online for sale for about $900 and up but I don't imagine I'll ever sell it. It will end up with my grandkids when I'm gone. Hopefully--I don't have any yet.


Dang...was hoping you might put it up for sale. Well, I will keep looking.


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## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

Good choice! Your High Power is, for many reasons, far more valuable than a M&P. Enjoy your HP, carry the M&P.

Just my not so humble opinion :mrgreen:


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

lefty60 said:


> Good choice! Your High Power is, for many reasons, far more valuable than a M&P. Enjoy your HP, carry the M&P.
> 
> Just my not so humble opinion :mrgreen:


I completely agree! The BHP is one of, if not the, best pistols ever made. The pistol is still being used today by many professionals, and for good reason. But I think it is more for literal combat type situations rather than for EDC. That said, if you're comfortable carrying it, I would not hesitate one second. I've carried them and love them. Nice choice to select the M&P also! Great pistols gaining a lot of ground in the professional arena. If there was a pistol I would replace the M9 with, it would be the S&W M&P45. They are produced with a frame mounted external thumb safety, which complies with most military requirements, it carries plenty of .45 ammunition with 10+1, and they are proving to be extremely reliable weapons.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Re: M&P trigger. Scott at ApexTactical is great to deal with. 
That said, I find their USB (ultimate Striker Block) is THE most important part to replace to smooth out the trigger. All else is gravy. I have replaced just the USB in one, replaced USB and done my own trigger work in another, and done the whole DCAEK in the third. The last two are a bit lighter than the first (6 & 5 lbs respectively) but the all are smooth! When my Shield arrives, I will replace the USB and do my own trigger job. (If you are handy and CAREFUL AND CAUTIOUS this is easy and you can find instructions for the DIYBurwell trigger job online). 
I different than GD, I like my striker Fireds. I also like my Maks and 3rd Gen Smiths, but shoot my M&P best unless doing a bullseye style of shooting. 

Good luck and enjoy that new pistol!


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## Desertrat (Apr 26, 2007)

Not a thing wrong with that Browning...I wish the hell I did not sell mine back in 1976...but a Glock is a damn good
investment.


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