# Poor misunderstood Freddie Gray



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

The dead gentle soul in Baltimore........

Freddie Gray's arrest record:
4-1-15 - stolen property
3-20-15 - dealing cocaine
1-4-15 - distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 - distribution of narcotics
12-4-14 - distribution of narcotics
12-4-14 - possession of narcotics
1-25-14 - possession of narcotics over 10 grams
9-29-13 distribution of narcotics
10-5-12 - illegal gambling
5-9-12 - distribution of narcotics
8-28-10 - possession of narcotics
9-16-09 - distribution of narcotics
7-16-08 - distribution of narcotics
4-30-08 - unlawful possession (TWO COUNTS)
4-16-08 - distribution of narcotics
3-28-08 - possession of narcotics
3-20-08 - Burglary
3-20-08 - possession of narcotics
2-12-08 - distribution of narcotics
9-21-07 - distribution of narcotics
8-24-07 - manufacturing and distribution of narcotics
8-29-07 - distribution of narcotics


(Source: Maryland Dept. of Justice.)



I can't help but think he was into drugs. Maybe, just maybe, that's why he bolted when he made eye contact with LE. :watching:


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Looks like the War on Drugs worked in his case.. :smt082


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Yeah, but that's not the point.
Mr. Gray was killed by police officers by means of "creative negligence."
The negligence seems premeditated, comprised activity that evidently is used often by BPD, and caused vigilante-style "justice," none of which is excusable.

Police officers are sworn to uphold the law, and, as such, are bound to act as a good example to all of us, and particularly to the suspects whom they arrest.
We all have a right to expect just and evenhanded behavior and processing from any police agency.
This is because, in any given case, an arrestee may not be actually guilty of the charge posted against him. We all deserve the benefit of the doubt until we are tried.

On the other hand, I am appalled that, after acknowledgment of wrongdoing by both BPD and Baltimore's Mayor, the, um, people still rioted, and destroyed the property of Baltimoreans who had nothing to do with Mr. Gray, the police, or even the government of the city.
Yup, that's real justice for ya, folks. After all, "No justice; no peace!"


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> The dead gentle soul in Baltimore........
> 
> Freddie Gray's arrest record:
> 4-1-15 - stolen property
> ...


Suffice to say either Freddie had one heck of an attorney or Baltimore and or the state of Maryland has a failed justice system. If Freddie was where he belonged none of this would have happened, but of course hind sight is 20-20


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

denner said:


> <snip> but of course hind sight is 20-20


Yeah, but Justice is a 30-30 :anim_lol:


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yeah, but that's not the point.
> Mr. Gray was killed by police officers by means of "creative negligence."
> The negligence seems premeditated, comprised activity that evidently is used often by BPD, and caused vigilante-style "justice," none of which is excusable.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Steve, for stating the REAL point. From the looks of the video, his spine was gone before they ever put him in the van. He couldn't walk, and was in obvious pain - at what point do you put someone who cannot walk into a chair, (without the seatbelt) and shut the door on him?

Regardless of his record, that is not how I want my PD to act.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Gee, another black racist politician. Who would have thought? Best thing to do with destructive rioters and looters is to shoot them. Do enough of this and they'll cease to be a problem. And maybe we'll get lucky and this black racist mayor will get hit.

Baltimore Mayor Stuns With Remarks on Violent Freddie Gray Protesters Who ?Wished to Destroy? | Video | TheBlaze.com


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

Last time I checked we didn't break the necks of people who sold drugs. If we should then change the punishment and I am sure the PD would oblige to do so. All this has been going on for years it's only because we all have cellphones that this is coming to light. It's sad that the 1% is giving the Police a bad name but then again the other 99% cover up the facts unless the Media puts it all over the news and forces them to do right. Then again what do I know. I am just angry that this keeps on happening. News Nugget, Cameras are everywhere.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

shaolin said:


> Last time I checked we didn't break the necks of people who sold drugs. If we should then change the punishment and I am sure the PD would oblige to do so. All this has been going on for years it's only because we all have cellphones that this is coming to light. *It's sad that the 1% is giving the Police a bad name but then again the other 99% cover up the facts unless the Media puts it all over the news and forces them to do right.* Then again what do I know. I am just angry that this keeps on happening. News Nugget, Cameras are everywhere.


Yes this is a bad thing. Still, it's no excuse for people to riot and destroy and loot. A few of the destroyers and looters bodies laid out for all to see will go a long way in sending a message that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> Yes this is a bad thing. Still, it's no excuse for people to riot and destroy and loot. A few of the destroyers and looters bodies laid out for all to see will go a long way in sending a message that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated.


And yet if the PD would stop breaking peoples' necks, they wouldn't have an "excuse" to riot. Maybe we should (as is always best) start with the Root Cause and remove the reason for the unrest.

It really isn't hard, y'know.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

And that's just what he got caught for. Is anybody really gonna' miss him? I wasn't there to witness how the police handled his arrest or how Mr.Gray reacted to being arrested. It would seem to me that if Mr. Gray surrendered peacefully he may still be alive today. Likewise if he had been kept in jail when Mr. Gray decided to make a living dealing drugs and the crimes that are associated with it. Or better yet never embarked on a criminal career to begin with. I do not feel sorry for him one single bit. Thanks "paratrooper" for providing information regarding his arrest record. I can't say it surprises me.


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## Tip (Aug 22, 2012)

Injustice, whether REAL or perceived, is not and never will be an excuse or cause to destroy the property of others, steal the property of others, or destroy the peace. PERIOD.

If someone feels an injustice has occurred there are mechanisms in place for addressing that. And to those who will appear shouting about civil disobedience I'll say CIVIL disobedience does NOT include the destruction nor taking of another's property. Rosa Parks did NOT steal nor DESTROY the bus folks -- she simply and quietly rode upon it.

Want me to support your cause - show me your cause is just. 
Riot, loot and destroy and you will lose that support.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SailDesign:
First of all I seriously doubt that the police have broken the necks of every single person that has ever been arrested. Second of all they are not doctors able to judge physical injuries. Third, arresting someone who doesn't want to go peacefully will result in a violent confrontation. Violent confrontations have unpredictable consequences. And fourth, these people will find any excuse to riot, it's like a big block party for them. Societal order breaks down and they know they can get away with it.

How do you remove the Root Cause? How do you even know what the "Root Cause" is of every single individual that embarks on a criminal career? You say it isn't hard. I'm curious. What do you suggest? The police have to deal with hardened criminals and never know what to expect when confronting them. Should they ask "pretty please" and offer them cake and ice cream before arresting them? How 'bout a suite at the Waldorf Astoria? Legalizing criminal behavior? Provide every person who makes poor choices in life with a nice home in a nice neighborhood with a nice car? Reparations for slavery? Address every single grievance of every single person living in the USA? Just tell people that being a racist is bad? Seriously; What do you suggest?


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

D'man,

I'm not going to stand here toe-to-toe and slug this one out with you. You can't understand my viewpoint, and I can't understand yours. 

That's life.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

SailDesign said:


> And yet if the PD would stop breaking peoples' necks, they wouldn't have an "excuse" to riot. Maybe we should (as is always best) start with the Root Cause and remove the reason for the unrest.
> 
> It really isn't hard, y'know.


The root cause is the criminal. If there is no crime there is no police contact. Try to follow my logic. It really isn't hard you know.

GW


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SailDesign:
Sorry, Sail. It's just that you make it all sound so easy, and try to find excuses for reprehensible behavior on the part of criminal miscreants.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

goldwing said:


> The root cause is the criminal. If there is no crime there is no police contact. Try to follow my logic. It really isn't hard you know.
> 
> GW


Maybe if we paid everyone a decent minimum wage, there wouldn't be any criminals?

(Yeah, I know that's not going to work - but I had to try...)

On the other hand, if the police used "reasonable" force every time, we wouldn't have riots about people being killed. But apparently my definition of reasonable differs from others' here.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

goldwing:


> It really isn't hard you know.


For some it is, for some it is!


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

desertman said:


> SailDesign:
> Sorry, Sail. It's just that you make it all sound so easy, and try to find excuses for reprehensible behavior on the part of criminal miscreants.


And you make it sound as though the police should have every right to beat criminals up. I'm not trying to find excuses for the criminal's behaviour, simply pointing out that there is such a thing as "reasonable " force. If there was a reason for the cops to break his spine, they'd have trotted it out by now.

Catch you round- I'm out of this one.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SailDesign:


> But apparently my definition of reasonable differs from others' here.


Ever hear of escalation of violence?



> Maybe if we paid everyone a decent minimum wage, there wouldn't be any criminals?


How 'bout everybody regardless of skills or ambition earns the same. How's that for an incentive to succeed?



> And you make it sound as though the police should have every right to beat criminals up.


The police have to do whatever they have to do to secure an arrest. The criminal makes the final decision as to how much force will be needed to apprehend them.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

In almost every case, the criminal gets caught doing wrong, and then compounds his problems by fighting or trying to escape. 

The answer is don't do wrong, if you do, don't get caught, if you get caught, comply with the orders of the nice man with the gun.

GW


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Higher pay will do nothing if its easier and more profitable to deal drugs.

Some people hate working (so they go into politics....them that can't.... )


I suspect the more you dig, the more root causes you find. (I'm sure anyone can add to the few I present here)

Like police who lay their lives on the line and see the criminals released, caught, released....

Hiring practices where body count is more important than quality...

Rewarding bad behavior, making it easy (or profitable) to be irresponsible...

Failure to train and discipline (both the criminal and those enforcing laws)

Bad laws, foolish legislation, failure to punish properly...


Yet quite often one of the principle problems is the failure to value life. One's own, each other's. 
There is also the failure to extend mercy AND the failure to respond to mercy.

Many times people just don't care anymore. They don't care who's hurt, they are so frustrated at their perceived notion of injustice, 
that they just take for themselves or try to fill in the gaps of justice and equity (often by taking more than is needed)

This goes for everyone, from those on the streets to those trying to keep the peace. Everyone wants respect. Employees want a good job. Employers want a good employee.
But finding balance is becoming more difficult it seems, especially if the power shifts to one side and profits are drained to fill elect pockets.

I suspect its because no one feels accountable anymore, and few hold anyone accountable. It used to be conscience/faith held people in check - for the most part.

Now with courts often ineffective, and conscience/faith sacrificed to pragmatism,

I suspect it will only get worse.


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## Tip (Aug 22, 2012)

Sail - you bring "root cause" to the table -- I'm going to repeat a post I made in another thread and then I have a serious question for you.



> The common factor throughout all of these instances:
> 
> A person IS breaking the Laws of our land and IS presenting a danger to the general public and IS ignoring lawful orders issued by the people selected to enforce the laws of our land and IS continuing to present a danger to society.
> Yet somehow now certain segments of our society want us to ignore all of that and blame the cop when something bad happens. I don't get it.
> ...


So, in your mind exactly what is this "root cause" you refer to in the Freddie Gray instance?

Is it Mr. Gray choosing a life of crime?
Is it society establishing a police force to protect society's best interest?
Is it a failure of society to provide cradle to grave care and support for those showing an unwillingness to work for it?

Keep in mind the vast, vast, VAST majority of those in Baltimore, (or Ferguson, or wherever) DO NOT resort to a life of crime to subsist. They choose, instead, to work, and work very hard (and work within the accepted norms of society) to improve their lot in life. And, in a tremendous number of cases they succeed.

So, kind sir, WHAT exactly is the "root cause" as you see it?


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Tip:
Thank you for repeating your fine post! Unfortunately some people just do not get it. They think that if we all join hands and sing "Kumbaya" all of our problems will disappear. Just raise the minimum wage and all of the drug dealers and criminal miscreants of society will all rush over to McDonald's to become hamburger flippers. Ridiculous! That is if McDonald's would even want to hire them. What business would? Don't expect to get a rational answer to your question, because there isn't any. Again, thanks for repeating your post!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yeah, but that's not the point.
> Mr. Gray was killed by police officers by means of "creative negligence."
> The negligence seems premeditated, comprised activity that evidently is used often by BPD, and caused vigilante-style "justice," none of which is excusable.
> 
> ...


I wasn't excusing the actions of LE. I think you all know me better than that by now. I just thought that it was rather curious that he (Gray) ran as soon as LE took laid eyes on him. Now we all know why.


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## muckaleewarrior (Aug 10, 2014)

OK, Mr. Gray has a long rap sheet and the Criminal Justice system may be broken. I get that. But, Mr. Gray died in police custody on this last arrest and that is why the attention is on the Baltimore PD right now. *Why?*


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

muckaleewarrior said:


> OK, Mr. Gray has a long rap sheet and the Criminal Justice system may be broken. I get that. But, Mr. Gray died in police custody on this last arrest and that is why the attention is on the Baltimore PD right now. *Why?*


I'm not convinced that Gray's injuries occurred while in the van. It was obvious that he couldn't walk under his own power to the van. I'm suspicious that LE is trying to shift the focus from initially being taken into custody, to being transported.

I'm smelling a rat. :watching:


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## muckaleewarrior (Aug 10, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> I'm not convinced that Gray's injuries occurred while in the van. It was obvious that he couldn't walk under his own power to the van. I'm suspicious that LE is trying to shift the focus from initially being taken into custody, to being transported.
> 
> I'm smelling a rat. :watching:


Maybe they broke his back first, then drug him to the van. Either way, it doesn't look good.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> Gee, another black racist politician. Who would have thought? Best thing to do with destructive rioters and looters is to shoot them. Do enough of this and they'll cease to be a problem. And maybe we'll get lucky and this black racist mayor will get hit.
> 
> Baltimore Mayor Stuns With Remarks on Violent Freddie Gray Protesters Who ?Wished to Destroy? | Video | TheBlaze.com


The Mayor of Baltimore, regardless of race or gender, has proven herself by these remarks to be a fool.
Baltimore has been a cesspit for almost 50 years, now, and the fault can easily be laid at the feet of corrupt city government and police.
The solution to the problem is strong control, but neither the Mayor nor the Police Chief seems capable of exercising the control that is needed.

Baltimore is an economically depressed city. Most of its people are struggling to support themselves and their families.
The way out of that morass is to clean up the place, re-institute the rule of law, and thereby make the city look inviting to entrepreneurial investors.
Certainly, a work-force hungry for decent employment and equitable wages is sitting there, waiting.
But city government seems to be riddled with the "gimmees."
If that doesn't change, Baltimore won't change.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SouthernBoy:


> Baltimore Mayor Stuns With Remarks on Violent Freddie Gray Protesters Who ?Wished to Destroy? | Video | TheBlaze.com


Reminds me of what David Dinkins former mayor of New York City did during the Crown Heights riots. Gee, I wonder what political party they both belong to. It couldn't be the party that wishes to abolish the 2nd Amendment and "Constitutional Law"? Come to think of it which party controls most of the major cities throughout the USA. Cities who coincidentally are the deepest cesspools of corruption. It's amazing that these people can get elected in the first place. You'd think that the people who continue to vote for these criminal politicians would realize that they have become slaves to these very same scoundrels that they perpetually keep in office. Their lots in life certainly are not getting any better. But that's all part of the plan.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

muckaleewarrior said:


> Maybe they broke his back first, then drug him to the van. Either way, it doesn't look good.


I agree with what you suggested and stated.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't the cops have a habit of putting their knee on your head/neck region when holding you down? I wonder if this is how his neck got broken? In the video he clearly has no control over his legs before he is put into the van. That tells me there is a cover up going on and lies are being stated as evidence. What do witnesses have to say about the crime and has the FBI been called in yet? I will wait and let the rule of law make it conclusion before I make mine. Everyone deserves the right to due process.


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## Tip (Aug 22, 2012)

shaolin said:


> That tells me there is a cover up going on and lies are being stated as evidence.
> 
> I will wait and let the rule of law make it conclusion before I make mine.


Really????


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

shaolin:


> Don't the cops have a habit of putting their knee on your head/neck region when holding you down?


I'm not a police officer, but from what I can tell this only applies to when a subject is forcibly resisting arrest. I don't see how they would apply this tactic to someone who obeys their commands and surrenders without incident.



> I will wait and let the rule of law make it conclusion before I make mine. *Everyone deserves the right to due process*.


I would think that this would apply to the police officers that were involved in the arrest and subsequent demise of Freddie Gray. By the looks of things it seems like the community and the Mayor of Baltimore have already drawn their own conclusions along with the national news media.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

desertman said:


> shaolin:
> 
> I'm not a police officer, but from what I can tell this only applies to when a subject is forcibly resisting arrest. I don't see how they would apply this tactic to someone who obeys their commands and surrenders without incident.
> 
> I would think that this would apply to the police officers that were involved in the arrest and subsequent demise of Freddie Gray. By the looks of things it seems like the community and the Mayor of Baltimore have already drawn their own conclusions along with the national news media.


I was referring to the Police Officer getting due process. We don't have all the facts at least I don't and so I won't condemn them or him. I am pro cop but I just wanted to know what happened with the remark of knee on head/neck. I am not saying anyone is at fault yet but to say he walked on his own up to the van is disturbing if that is what they claim. I have no doubt that Mr. Grey did something wrong but perhap the Baltimore PD did to. I don't know yet and will reserve judgement until all the facts are made known.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

shaolin:


> I was referring to the Police Officer getting due process.


Sorry, I guess I misunderstood as your first statement questioned the tactics used by police in making an arrest. You then questioned whether this might have caused a broken neck? Followed by what you observed in the video. Then you assume there is a cover up. I don't know how else to interpret those statements. They sure sounded like they were directed towards the police. Remember, "Hands up don't shoot"? That was all based on lies and innuendo and we all know how that turned out.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

A couple of years ago I worked wit a man who worked for 2 weeks with a broken back and did not know how bad it was. He walked into a dinner and sat down hard in a seat and caused the spine to shift wrong and off to the hospital. So we don't know when, how or what happened to him. The Mayor should be arrested for aiding and abetting the rioter and arson.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

shaolin said:


> Don't the cops have a habit of putting their knee on your head/neck region when holding you down? I wonder if this is how his neck got broken? In the video he clearly has no control over his legs before he is put into the van. That tells me there is a cover up going on and lies are being stated as evidence. What do witnesses have to say about the crime and has the FBI been called in yet? I will wait and let the rule of law make it conclusion before I make mine. Everyone deserves the right to due process.


Anytime you forcibly restrain another from free movement, there's a very good chance of injury occurring. When you apply pressure to the neck of another, you are risking injury to that person.

There are times when as a lone officer, that's about all you can do, until your back-up arrives. You restrain / restrict movement as best you can.

I still do not believe that the injury to Gray occurred while being transported in the van. I'm convinced that it occurred as he was being physically subdued on the ground.

I'm basing my opinion on the video I viewed. It's adequately apparent that Gray was having medical issues while being drug to the transport van. He should have received medical attention prior to being moved from the spot where he was being restrained by the bicycle officers.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

One things for sure I certainly would not want to choose law enforcement as a career. It seems like the inmates are now in control of the asylum. Those who choose to restore law and order are now looked upon by many in our society as villains, same for returning veterans of war. Those who willfully choose to rape, rob, and plunder are looked upon as poor unfortunate victims of society. Something is radically wrong with this type of thinking and the direction we are headed in. I never thought I'd see the day where a black militant could be elected president. Better hold on to your guns, because when the whole shit house goes up in flames we're sure gonna need 'em. As there will be no one but ourselves to protect us either at home or from abroad. Who in their right mind would want to choose law enforcement or the military as their career under such conditions?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

SailDesign said:


> And yet if the PD would stop breaking peoples' necks, they wouldn't have an "excuse" to riot. Maybe we should (as is always best) start with the Root Cause and remove the reason for the unrest.
> 
> It really isn't hard, y'know.


So you know the whole set of facts with this case? I don't and would much prefer to hold off on any definitive assessments until everything is in and we know what took place.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

desertman said:


> One things for sure I certainly would not want to choose law enforcement as a career. It seems like the inmates are now in control of the asylum. Those who choose to restore law and order are now looked upon by many in our society as villains, same for returning veterans of war. Those who willfully choose to rape, rob, and plunder are looked upon as poor unfortunate victims of society. Something is radically wrong with this type of thinking and the direction we are headed in. I never thought I'd see the day where a black militant could be elected president. Better hold on to your guns, because when the whole shit house goes up in flames we're sure gonna need 'em. As there will be no one but ourselves to protect us either at home or from abroad. Who in their right mind would want to choose law enforcement or the military as their career under such conditions?


I'm just glad that there still are those that are willing to take on the challenges, responsibilities, and duty of just such a career. If there weren't, we'd all be in a world of hurt.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

muckaleewarrior said:


> Maybe they broke his back first, then drug him to the van. Either way, it doesn't look good.


 Did he crash his bicycle? That'll do it.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

The rioting is *messing up the baseball schedule*. This can't be good.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I think that these may be the pre-truth riots. When the grand jury adjourns we will either have the "See, I told you they murdered him!" riots, or "That grand jury is racist" riots.

But wait! There's more. Don't forget about the riots for the black gangsta that is going to die trying to avenge "Poor old Freddy"

This world is circling the drain.:toimonster:

GW


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## muckaleewarrior (Aug 10, 2014)

Riots after sports wins, losses or whatever solve what I wonder? About the same thing...Nothing. This world is more than crazy on all ends.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)




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