# Kahr PM45 Still Unreliable



## ampgoesto11

To follow up my earlier post, I received my PM45 back from KAI's service department with a new barrel, new magazine catch, and some new small springs. Upon testing it at the range, I discovered it still failed to cycle correctly, though the other issues seemed to be fixed. After firing one or two rounds from each magazine of 230 ball factory ammo, the slide would lock back, or would cycle forward with no round in the chamber, requiring a hand-cycle.

I called Kahr, again, to discuss my frustration with the gun and to ask that it be replaced. My intention was to insist that they make good on their warranty and send me a new gun that I could sell as NIB and try to redeem my costs. No way. They want to look at the gun again, and then they will decide if it is defective. This is coming from the same batch of friends that "repaired and tested" the gun the first time.

At this point, there is no way I can trust the Kahr PM45 as a defense weapon, which is why I purchased it. I have since run 400+ rounds through my Glock 36, with perfection. It's prettty easy to make a comparison, and then to conclude that the Kahr is rubbish, at least the one I bought. Sad, really, because the Kahr is so danged concealable.

I'll keep you posted.


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## dosborn

When I went to buy a PM9 I ended up leaving with a G26. After I looked everthing over, inside and out, between the two I went with the Glock because of construction and all of the positive things I hear.

I would still like to have a PM one of these days but I think after the problems I have heard it will be no bigger than the 40.

Good luck.


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## zhurdan

ampgoesto11 said:


> At this point, there is no way I can trust the Kahr PM45 as a defense weapon, which is why I purchased it. I have since run 400+ rounds through my Glock 36, with perfection. It's prettty easy to make a comparison, and then to conclude that the Kahr is rubbish, at least the one I bought. Sad, really, because the Kahr is so danged concealable.


Have you given any thought to the option that it may not be the gun this time around? Kahr's are overbuilt in many aspects. I can't recall off the top of my head, but my Glock has about a 16 lb spring, and the Kahr has about a 20 lb spring which requires a much firmer grip.

Do me a favor if you would... unload your gun, double check it's unloaded, then have someone take a 270 degree set of about 5-6 pictures of how you hold the gun when you'd shoot it from the left to right. (please don't take a picture head on with the gun hehe). I'd bet that there's something we might be able to help you with.

I'm only mentioning this because I can hand my Glock to any one of my friends and it runs great. As soon as I hand them the Kahr, it chokes. Me? I shoot it fine with narry a problem after having them replace the magazine catch (which was a known problem back in '98). I'd be willing to bet a ham sandwich it has to do with the heavier spring in the Kahr and how you are holding the gun. I hope we can help you out.


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## Steve M1911A1

I'll add my two cents to *zhurdan*'s post:
Next time you're at a range, let the range officer shoot your pistol. See how it behaves in the hands of a very experienced shooter other than yourself.
That's the quickest way to find out whether or not the problem you're having is due partly to your technique.


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## ampgoesto11

zhurdan said:


> Have you given any thought to the option that it may not be the gun this time around? Kahr's are overbuilt in many aspects. I can't recall off the top of my head, but my Glock has about a 16 lb spring, and the Kahr has about a 20 lb spring which requires a much firmer grip.
> 
> Do me a favor if you would... unload your gun, double check it's unloaded, then have someone take a 270 degree set of about 5-6 pictures of how you hold the gun when you'd shoot it from the left to right. (please don't take a picture head on with the gun hehe). I'd bet that there's something we might be able to help you with.
> 
> I'm only mentioning this because I can hand my Glock to any one of my friends and it runs great. As soon as I hand them the Kahr, it chokes. Me? I shoot it fine with narry a problem after having them replace the magazine catch (which was a known problem back in '98). I'd be willing to bet a ham sandwich it has to do with the heavier spring in the Kahr and how you are holding the gun. I hope we can help you out.


Thank you for the excellent advice. I have a stationary bench rest device. I suspect that if the gun cycles when placed and locked in that, but does not cycle with my hand hold, then I can assume the problem is mine, WHICH WOULD BE OUTSTANDING! I would love nothing more than to fix the issues and keep the gun. If the issues are mine, then all the better and easier to correct.


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## ka-chow

Souunds familiar...

Had a Kahr PM9 and it had nothing but problems...Sent it back...Still had problems...sold it...no more problems.

Moral of the story...the only "Kahr" you should buy is one that has 4 wheels, a motor, a steering wheel and drives you from point A to point B and is simply spelled "car" in English.



At least for me anyway...Bought a Glock and no problems. :smt023


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## YFZsandrider

ka-chow said:


> Moral of the story...the only "Kahr" you should buy is one that has 4 wheels, a motor, a steering wheel and drives you from point A to point B and is simply spelled "car" in English.
> 
> At least for me anyway...Bought a Glock and no problems. :smt023


Another moral of the story...

Not every gun is a Glock. Kahrs fit in a very unique niche of the gun market. They are small, yet very accurate and controlleable. For the sake of reliability, they have a fairly stiff spring and do not take well to any limp wristing.


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## zhurdan

ka-chow said:


> Souunds familiar...
> 
> Had a Kahr PM9 and it had nothing but problems...Sent it back...Still had problems...sold it...no more problems.
> 
> Moral of the story...the only "Kahr" you should buy is one that has 4 wheels, a motor, a steering wheel and drives you from point A to point B and is simply spelled "car" in English.
> 
> At least for me anyway...Bought a Glock and no problems. :smt023


No insult intended, but how about starting with a PK9. The difference in small pistols seems to be STEEL vs. polymer. There's something to be said when trying to reduce the size of something. Every iteration seems to have more problems as you reduce weight. Perhaps that's the key. My Kahr is all Stainless. The spring is strong, the fit is perfect, the function is flawless... in my hands. I know quite a few experienced shooters that once they understand the dynamics of the pistol, it fires flawlessly. I'll show a short video I made for a friend in a second. When you watch it, keep in mind that I hadn't shot this pistol in about 8-9 months. The first shot caught me by surprise as is evident in the recoil. The rest were well managed. Shooting different pistols requires adjustment. Don't give up on a pistol simply because it doesn't work for you... you have to work for the pistol in equal regards.



Shooting different guns is part of most peoples problem. Although I shoot many different guns well, I'd probably be better served shooting one gun all the time. If you 'collect' guns, fine. Pick one that you want to shoot well. Stick with it until you learn it's in's and outs. Like I said earlier, when I give it to other friends of mine, it chokes. When I focus on the gun I'm shooting, it runs juuuust fine.


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## dosborn

What if you are in a very stressful defense situation and you don't remember to hold it "juuust right" and you have a failure/jam?? Another reason to go with a G26 or27.


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## YFZsandrider

If its your EDC, and you treat it as such, meaning regular range duty and exhaustive familiarization with it... then there's no "remembering to hold it right." when you draw the gun, it just happens. My Kahr is a polymer P9 and it has been nothing but reliable, and very consistent with the way it handles and feeds.


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## zhurdan

dosborn said:


> What if you are in a very stressful defense situation and you don't remember to hold it "juuust right" and you have a failure/jam?? Another reason to go with a G26 or27.


You shouldn't have to remember to hold it just right if it's your go to carry gun. Glocks aren't perfect either. A limp wristed gun of any variety may fail to function. As YFZ pointed out, shoot it enough so that it's second nature. This is precisely why I don't carry the Kahr anymore. That pistol is about 11 years old. It shoots just fine, but I have a different pistol with better features (mainly round count) that I carry now. I would not have any reservations about carrying my Kahr because I've shot the piss out of it and know it to be reliable, but I don't because I don't shoot it enough anymore.

I think we're off track a bit. The reason I brought up technique in the first place is because sometimes, people throw their hands up and say a gun is a piece of crap, but may not have the proper training or technique and that may be what is causing the issue. The original poster doesn't seem to be doing that, he's trying to figure out what will make it run.

Once you start getting into smaller and smaller guns, it's not just "point and pull". You're changing the dynamics of the whole shot. Recoil energy has less room to dissipate, geometry of the gun becomes a bigger factor in displacing that energy. Proper control over the weapon is more important for it to function properly. Auto's, especially short/small ones, are more dependant on a stable shooting platform due to the fact they have to up the recoil spring strength to account for the short throw of the action. That means they're going to be picky. That means more practice is required to shoot them well.

I seriously can't believe the sheer amount of times I've been at the range and someone is cursing their gun because "it's a piece of crap". I watch them for about 1 magazine worth of shooting and ask if I can shoot it to see what's going wrong. The gun runs fine. I show them a few pointers and bing-bang-boom... it runs like diarrhea, but in a good way.


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## dosborn

zhurdan said:


> ... it runs like diarrhea, but in a good way.


:anim_lol:

I agree with you, you should know your weapon in and out as well as practice, practice, practice.

Most, but not all people don't shoot/practice like they should. I mentioned the Glock because of my experience with it. I have not had my G26 very long and it is my first Glock so I don't feel I am being bias. It is one of the only handguns I have shot that I could not get to screw-up no matter how I shot it.


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## Steve M1911A1

dosborn said:


> What if you are in a very stressful defense situation and you don't remember to hold it "juuust right" and you have a failure/jam?? Another reason to go with a G26 or27.


If you don't hold it "juuust right," you will not only experience a jam, but also you will fail to effectively hit the target.
If you're shooting *any* pistol, semi-auto, revolver, or single-shot, you had better hold it "juuust right."


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## Krab

ampgoesto11 said:


> To follow up my earlier post, I received my PM45 back from KAI's service department with a new barrel, new magazine catch, and some new small springs. Upon testing it at the range, I discovered it still failed to cycle correctly, though the other issues seemed to be fixed. After firing one or two rounds from each magazine of 230 ball factory ammo, the slide would lock back, or would cycle forward with no round in the chamber, requiring a hand-cycle.
> 
> I called Kahr, again, to discuss my frustration with the gun and to ask that it be replaced. My intention was to insist that they make good on their warranty and send me a new gun that I could sell as NIB and try to redeem my costs. No way. They want to look at the gun again, and then they will decide if it is defective. This is coming from the same batch of friends that "repaired and tested" the gun the first time.
> 
> At this point, there is no way I can trust the Kahr PM45 as a defense weapon, which is why I purchased it. I have since run 400+ rounds through my Glock 36, with perfection. It's prettty easy to make a comparison, and then to conclude that the Kahr is rubbish, at least the one I bought. Sad, really, because the Kahr is so danged concealable.
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


This really sucks to hear. I've heard nothing but good things from Kahr customer service up until this. Hope this issue gets resolved. On a side note, my K9 has been problem-free so far. Hope it stays that way.


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## dosborn

Steve M1911A1 said:


> If you don't hold it "juuust right," you will not only experience a jam, but also you will fail to effectively hit the target.
> If you're shooting *any* pistol, semi-auto, revolver, or single-shot, you had better hold it "juuust right."


It sound's like he is ONLY having trouble with the PM45. If I remember correctly, he has other Kahrs and does not experience this issue with them, again, if I remember correctly (I read WAY too much on here).



ampgoesto11 said:


> I have since run 400+ rounds through my Glock 36, with perfection. It's prettty easy to make a comparison, and then to conclude that the Kahr is rubbish, at least the one I bought.


There ya go. This is why I will stay away from a .45 in this gun, until they improve anyways.


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## ENH

As I posted on the other thread my P45 does the same thing. The magazine dropping out must be common problem as there is a box for it to just check on the Kahr web page when requesting service. I received an email and they are sending me a new magazine catch and spring. Mine will be for sale if it corrects the problem.


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