# I attended my Wisconsin CCW class tonight. I am not impressed.



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I spent four hours this evening getting qualified for my CCW license. Thanks to the great state of Wisconsin, it only cost me $17.09. Thanks to the great state of Wisconsin, it wasn't worth half what I paid. The instructor knew her subject well, and followed the lesson plan as it was dictated for her to follow. She tried her best to keep it interesting and stressed on the points that she felt would keep us from getting killed or going to prison. I felt as though there should have been a prerequisite course for 80% of the class that were obviously brand spanking new to handling any type of firearm, much less carrying a concealed weapon and making live or die decisions under less than optimal conditions. The multiple guess written test was passed by everyone who could read and write English. The practical test consisted of loading and unloading a Glock. About halfway through the class I started memorizing the other faces in the class so that if I saw them on the street I could start looking for cover. My application is in the mail. My prayers go out to the innocent people behind the people that my classmates take aim at.
Goldwing


----------



## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

The whole idea behind concealed carry permits/licenses is money..... Money for the states, money for classes mandated to obtain them...... The reason for being "qualified" to obtain then is more to show (wink wink) that the state is making sure those that apply are properly trained....

In Wisconsin a veteran with an honorable discharge is all that is need to obtain a concealed carry permit..... No class time required....

There are some that believe concealed carry permits/licenses violates the "shall not be infringed" language of the 2nd amendment.....

Bottom line......... *It is all about money.........*


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Cait43 said:


> The whole idea behind concealed carry permits/licenses is money..... Money for the states, money for classes mandated to obtain them...... The reason for being "qualified" to obtain then is more to show (wink wink) that the state is making sure those that apply are properly trained....
> 
> In Wisconsin a veteran with an honorable discharge is all that is need to obtain a concealed carry permit..... No class time required....
> 
> ...


I separated as a Staff Sargent after one hitch in the Air Force. I qualified as expert with the M-16 and S&W .38. I was not required to take the class as you said. I took the class so I could learn more about concealed carry. The truth is I would have learned more right here on the forum.
Goldwing


----------



## SteamboatWillie (Jan 24, 2013)

goldwing said:


> I separated as a Staff Sargent after one hitch in the Air Force. I qualified as expert with the M-16 and S&W .38. I was not required to take the class as you said. I took the class so I could learn more about concealed carry. The truth is I would have learned more right here on the forum.
> Goldwing


I've taught Ohio's Concealed Carry Course which is mandated at 12 hours; 10 classroom and 2 regarding the law (that may soon change given the new NRA Blended Learning (read "online") program). It's really not much more than a demonstration of safe gun handling - knowledge, skills and attitude necessary to safety shoot a pistol. Most instructors use the NRA Basic Pistol Course. Many other states appear to be similar from what I've read. This training represents the _minimum_ knowledge required to carry a concealed firearm.

In our neighboring state of Indiana, there is NO classroom or range time required to get a carry permit. And yet you never hear how dangerous it is to live in Indiana. And I suspect if there were numerous accidents or innocent people killed by permit holders it would definitely make the news. I dunno.

If you wanted to learn _more_ about concealed carry, it appears most basic Concealed Carry classes won't do it (as you now know). If you want to attend a class that WILL teach you more about concealed carry, I recommend TDI or a similar school. There aren't a lot of them, and good ones are not inexpensive. But you'll leave being a better shooter and wiser armed citizen. I attended it in 2005 or maybe it was 2007, and the lead instructor at that time was Dave Spaulding. Great staff, great facility.

TDI, Ohio Website - Advanced Concealed Carry.


----------



## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

It's all about money? Really? At $17.00 a pop. Is that what it costs everyone outside of ex-military?
We can carry openly or concealed here in Wyoming without a permit. It's not about money here.


----------



## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

SteamboatWillie said:


> ...
> 
> In our neighboring state of Indiana, there is NO classroom or range time required to get a carry permit. And yet you never hear how dangerous it is to live in Indiana. And I suspect if there were numerous accidents or innocent people killed by permit holders it would definitely make the news. I dunno.
> 
> ...


The above holds true for Georgia; no classroom, or range time required.

When I lived in Alabama, the same held true there. I have been away from Alabama for a while, so I am not sure right now if anything has changed, but I suspect not.


----------



## Lee Hunter (May 25, 2011)

I'm one of those Indiana residents with a lifetime LTCH that I never had to jump through hoops for... Never shot myself in the foot yet.

I'm also a veteran who never even saw a handgun while I served, let alone qualified with one.

Frankly, if I had to attend some kind of handgun qualification course to obtain a permit to carry, I think I'd start carrying a sword cane.


----------



## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

To get my GA permit, no class was required. To get my SC permit, I had to attend class and shoot a qualification course. The class did a pretty good job with teaching folks the basic legal issues with carrying a gun and the qualification course required at least a decent familiarity with the gun. I was truly amazed at how poorly my class did on the range, at least half were shooting .22 pistols to give them "an edge." While I believe 100% that the right to defend yourself is absolute, I am also saddened at how many folks likely have a permit and carry a gun that have no skill or proficiency with said gun...


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Cait43 said:


> The whole idea behind concealed carry permits/licenses is money..... Money for the states, money for classes mandated to obtain them...... The reason for being "qualified" to obtain then is more to show (wink wink) that the state is making sure those that apply are properly trained....
> 
> In Wisconsin a veteran with an honorable discharge is all that is need to obtain a concealed carry permit..... No class time required....
> 
> ...


It is an infringement, of which there is no doubt. And more important than what appears in the Second Amendment is what appears in your state's constitution since that is what is going to affect you most.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I got my CHP in the summer of 1995, just after shall issue became law on July first of that year in my state. I was the second person to receive a CHP under the new law in my county at that time. I took the two-day advanced NRA course offered through the Izaac Walton League of America, of which I am a member, but what I didn't know is that a course I took in college would have sufficed.

That was a course called "Firearms Safety", as best as I remember, and included classroom lecture, textbook study and tests, and range time on a shotgun trap and skeet range.

Since then I have taken four more classes/seminars; three on my state's laws and the use of deadly force and one on concealed carry and its applications after having received a permit.

It is my opinion that even though there should be no requirements since such are violations of my state's constitution, one can never get enough information and education in this subject. Keep learning and stay current.


----------



## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

NGIB said:


> To get my GA permit, no class was required. To get my SC permit, I had to attend class and shoot a qualification course. The class did a pretty good job with teaching folks the basic legal issues with carrying a gun and the qualification course required at least a decent familiarity with the gun. I was truly amazed at how poorly my class did on the range, at least half were shooting .22 pistols to give them "an edge." While I believe 100% that the right to defend yourself is absolute, I am also saddened at how many folks likely have a permit and carry a gun that have no skill or proficiency with said gun...


You ( and I because I live in SC) can only hope they are going to the range regularly and using something larger than a .22.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

RK3369 said:


> You ( and I because I live in SC) can only hope they are going to the range regularly and using something larger than a .22.


In the part of the state in which I reside, there are a lot of shooting ranges of one kind or another (nine coming to mind without much thought about it) and they are all pretty heavily used. This speaks well of folks who own firearms and wish to keep their skills up.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

high pockets said:


> The above holds true for Georgia; no classroom, or range time required.
> 
> When I lived in Alabama, the same held true there. I have been away from Alabama for a while, so I am not sure right now if anything has changed, but I suspect not.


It hasn't. Just go down to the Sheriff's office, fill out the application and you get your permit provided you're not disqualified. TN had a program where you're required to take a 40 hour class and pass a written and range test before you could be certified to apply for your CCP. It cost $115 (in 1999) for the application, plus the cost of the course, which ran anywhere from $40 to $350 depending on where you took it.

Then you were issued a CCP that looked like your driver license, and it was good for four years. Renewal fee was $50 for another four years. The class was pretty much a joke, but it the most valuable information was rights and responsibility. Outside that, what sort of holster you need was...well, you get the point. Fluff...

I agree with Cait, the CCP violates the 2nd Amendment, but then the 2A was not intended to give the people rights. It was intended to limit power of government. Our rights predate the constitution, and anytime you have to prove to the government why you need something before they let you have it, it's not a right. It's a privilege. Somehow we've lost sight of that. The government has no right to tell you that you can't have and carry a gun. So shhhhhhhhhhh...


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

GCBHM:


> I agree with Cait, the CCP violates the 2nd Amendment, but then the 2A was not intended to give the people rights. It was intended to limit power of government. Our rights predate the constitution, and anytime you have to prove to the government why you need something before they let you have it, it's not a right. It's a privilege. Somehow we've lost sight of that. The government has no right to tell you that you can't have and carry a gun. So shhhhhhhhhhh...


I'm for "Constitutional Carry" where no permits are required to carry open or concealed and permits are optional for reciprocity purposes. I have a CWP for that reason and it also allows me to enter restaurants that serve alcohol, however permit holders can not drink. Without a CWP one can not even enter those establishments. I really wish that the same rule would apply to bars and vehicles. In other words you can only enter the bar providing that you didn't drive there.


----------



## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I think "constitutional carry" is irrelevent. The Constitution does not give us rights, it is only supposed to restrict the power (perceived or granted) of the government. I think we ought to be able to carry a gun anywhere we want, open or concealed, regardless. Let each state prosecute crime as it sees fit, but as long as I commit no crime, there should be no problem with me carrying my gun on me. The fact that you have to have a permit proves you don't have the right to carry, but are granted the privilege.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

GCBHM:
"Constitutional Carry" is only a term to describe states where *no permit is required to either carry openly or concealed.* Nothing more or nothing less.



> I think we ought to be able to carry a gun anywhere we want, open or concealed, regardless. Let each state prosecute crime as it sees fit, but as long as I commit no crime, there should be no problem with me carrying my gun on me.


No argument here.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

desertman said:


> GCBHM:
> 
> I'm for "Constitutional Carry" where no permits are required to carry open or concealed and permits are optional for reciprocity purposes. I have a CWP for that reason and it also allows me to enter restaurants that serve alcohol, however permit holders can not drink. Without a CWP one can not even enter those establishments. I really wish that the same rule would apply to bars and vehicles. In other words you can only enter the bar providing that you didn't drive there.


We don't have that particular problem here because there are no bars in Virginia. We can enter a restaurant that sells alcohol for consumption on the premise while carrying open or concealed (concealed requires a permission slip from our employees). We cannot drink when concealed but we can when openly carrying (not a good idea).


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

GCBHM said:


> I think "constitutional carry" is irrelevent. The Constitution does not give us rights, it is only supposed to restrict the power (perceived or granted) of the government. I think we ought to be able to carry a gun anywhere we want, open or concealed, regardless. Let each state prosecute crime as it sees fit, but as long as I commit no crime, there should be no problem with me carrying my gun on me. The fact that you have to have a permit proves you don't have the right to carry, but are granted the privilege.


*"The Constitution does not give us rights, it is only supposed to restrict the power (perceived or granted) of the government."*
I believe you meant to say the Bill of Rights with this.

The Constitution does two things and only two things.

It defines the type of government we have.
It describes how that government is to operate.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SouthernBoy:


> Well don't have that particular problem here because there are no bars in Virginia. We can enter a restaurant that sells alcohol for consumption on the premise while carrying open or concealed (concealed requires a permission slip from our employees). We cannot drink when concealed but we can when openly carrying (not a good idea).


In Arizona you may not consume alcohol on the premises of any establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on those premises while carrying a firearm either open or concealed. No concealed weapons permit? You can not enter period. Unless in case of an emergency. You can only carry in a bar that is not posted but still are prohibited from drinking. There are not too many people who go to bars who do not imbibe. I can see the logic behind this law and have no objection to it. But it seems crazy that you are allowed to drive to a bar for the soul purpose of drinking. I don't know which is more of a threat to society someone carrying a gun while drinking or someone getting behind the wheel? Alcohol and guns along with vehicles and machinery do not mix. No bars in Virginia? You're kidding? Well, your not missing much.


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> In Arizona you may not consume alcohol on the premises of any establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on those premises while carrying a firearm either open or concealed. No concealed weapons permit? You can not enter period. Unless in case of an emergency. You can only carry in a bar that is not posted but still are prohibited from drinking. There are not too many people who go to bars who do not imbibe. I can see the logic behind this law and have no objection to it. But it seems crazy that you are allowed to drive to a bar for the soul purpose of drinking. I don't know which is more of a threat to society someone carrying a gun while drinking or someone getting behind the wheel? Alcohol and guns along with vehicles and machinery do not mix. *No bars in Virginia? You're kidding?* Well, your not missing much.


No, I'm quite serious. An establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on the premise must have food sales in excess of the sale of alcohol. Therefore, no bars. Just restaurants that sell alcohol on their premises.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SouthernBoy:


> No, I'm quite serious.


Oh no, I believe you, just a little surprised. I've never been to Virginia or anywhere down south for that matter just the northeast, midwest and of course all over the southwest. I wonder how many other states have no bars?


----------



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> Oh no, I believe you, just a little surprised. I've never been to Virginia or anywhere down south for that matter just the northeast, midwest and of course all over the southwest. I wonder how many other states have no bars?


I don't think South Carolina has any, for the same reason, though others more knowledgeable than me would be better suited to answer this.


----------

