# Church Shooting in Charleston, SC - 9 Dead!



## muckaleewarrior

This is really sad! I hope he is found quickly and sent straight to hell.

Charleston Church Shooting: White Gunman Kills 9 At Historic Black Church


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## hillman

muckaleewarrior said:


> This is really sad! I hope he is found quickly and sent straight to hell.
> 
> Charleston Church Shooting: White Gunman Kills 9 At Historic Black Church


I'm guessing he 'heard a voice'. Wrong one.


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## RK3369

caught in traffic stop in NC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting.html?_r=1

Looks like Adam Lanza, Jr.


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## desertman

Get ready for another fight to preserve the 2nd Amendment.


> *We don't have all the facts*, but we do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun," Obama said in the White House briefing room, Vice President Joe Biden standing at his side.


Make no mistake about it the goals of the Democratic Party are to abolish the 2nd Amendment and Constitutional Law. Apparently facts, yet again, do not matter to this administration. It was reported that the father gave the gun to his son as a birthday present in spite of the fact that his son had been previously arrested on both a felony and misdemeanor charge. This might fall under the category of a straw purchase. I do not know for sure whether that only applies after a conviction? If so it is already prohibited by law and the father should be charged with a crime and as an accessory to murder.

It really doesn't matter what method or instruments were involved in carrying out an act of terror. A bottle filled with gasoline and a rag would have accomplished the same or worse. Does anyone remember the "Happy Land" fire? The "Boston Marathon" bombing? The Democratic Party will use any and all means to achieve their goals. I believe it was Rahm Emanuel who stated that they "should never let a good crisis go to waste". They will exploit this tragedy for everything that they can get out of it. Whether they succeed or not is up to us.



> "But to ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow. &#8230; For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals.  Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." Jeff Snyder


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## RK3369

They're going about it all wrong. Just simply ban ammunition. dont' have to worry about the guns then. 

I'm all for a gun ban in this country as long as Obama and Biden and the rest of them agree to force their Secret Service bodyguards to go without guns. Hell, why should they be any different than the rest of us if they want us to give up our means of self defense. If getting rid of guns is such a great idea, I'm all for it, but Obama, you go first, then I'll turn mine in afterwards. Until then, hands off my guns.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> Get ready for another fight to preserve the 2nd Amendment.
> 
> Make no mistake about it the goals of the Democratic Party are to abolish the 2nd Amendment and Constitutional Law. Apparently facts, yet again, do not matter to this administration. It was reported that the father gave the gun to his son as a birthday present in spite of the fact that his son had been previously arrested on both a felony and misdemeanor charge. This might fall under the category of a straw purchase. I do not know for sure whether that only applies after a conviction? If so it is already prohibited by law and the father should be charged with a crime and as an accessory to murder.
> 
> It really doesn't matter what method or instruments were involved in carrying out an act of terror. A bottle filled with gasoline and a rag would have accomplished the same or worse. Does anyone remember the "Happy Land" fire? The "Boston Marathon" bombing? The Democratic Party will use any and all means to achieve their goals. I believe it was Rahm Emanuel who stated that they "should never let a good crisis go to waste". They will exploit this tragedy for everything that they can get out of it. Whether they succeed or not is up to us.


Your quote from Jeffrey Snyder is spot on correct. I encourage anyone who has not read his essay, "A Nation of Cowards" to read it... do it now. I read it years ago and it is well worth revisiting from time to time.


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## Popeye77

Then again it's OK to arm the Muslim brotherhood and drug cartels??


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## RK3369

Popeye77 said:


> Then again it's OK to arm the Muslim brotherhood and drug cartels??


Yup, as always, money talks and politicians lie.


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## desertman

Just received this from "Gun Owners of America":


> "Now's the time for mourning and for healing, but let's be clear -- at some point we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries," Obama said.
> 
> Really? Has the President forgotten just some of the foreign massacres that have taken place during his presidency -- shootings that claimed far more lives than the nine which were tragically lost in South Carolina? How about:
> 
> * The attacks from earlier this year -- which began at Charlie Hebdo in Paris and continued for 48 hours around the region -- that resulted in 17 people being murdered;
> 
> * Or the Anders Breivik murders in Norway in 2011 where 77 people were murdered -- 69 of them with firearms;
> 
> * Or the Derrick Bird shootings in Cumbria, England that left 12 people dead in 2010.
> 
> In each of these cases, the armed perpetrators ignored strict gun control laws in acquiring and carrying their weapons.
> 
> One of the biggest problems at South Carolina church is that the potential victims were disarmed by law.
> 
> In the Palmetto State, a concealed carry permit holder can carry in places of worship with permission from a church official. *Unfortunately, the pastor was an anti-gun activist. As a state senator, the Pastor had voted against concealed carry.*
> 
> But the President completely misses all of this. *He ignores the fact that this was yet another example where a massacre took place in a Gun Free Zone....
> *



I wonder if the good pastor, if he could, would reconsider his decision now.


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## RK3369

The news media talks about what do we do to avoid this in the future. Well, the fact is that there are always going to be mentally ill people in society. You can outlaw all the guns you want to outlaw but if someone bent on murder can get their hands on one illegally, it is still going to happen. The only answer is to allow legal weapon carry either openly or concealed to allow every citizen the right and ability to defend themselves from something like this. I think the people in the church would agree if they could reconsider their position of being completely helpless in the face of such evil. Truly sad, but we should fight to ensure that the survivors can defend themselves in the future. Had the pastor been armed or allowed parishoners qualified to legally carry to do so in the church, those people might all still be alive.


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## Steve M1911A1

It beggars my understanding that people standing right next to the shooter did exactly nothing.
I am confounded by the entire Bible-study group's incapacity to respond to a close-up, deadly threat.
What were they afraid of? Being killed?
"Oh! Maybe if I just stand here quietly, he won't notice me." And then, "BANG!" you're dead.

Do I have to repeat the hoary "sheep" metaphor?
"Maybe the wolf will kill someone else, and not me."

"But I'm just a middle-aged woman. What can I do, against a killer with a gun?"
Well, Madam, you have to do _something_. Anything. Whatever you do will help someone, and maybe yourself as well.
Hit him with a chair. Smother him to your ample bosom. Sit on his chest and arms. Break his nose. Poke his eyes out.
_Do something!_
Or watch your friends die!


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## SouthernBoy

"In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?"

My sig on some other websites.


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## Cait43

How to stop mass shootings.........


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## CW

Prayer for the survivors.

Sadly there will be plenty of politics spewed everywhere instead of effective methods to deal with this stuff.

Guns wont disappear, nor should they.

But we do need to find best methods of getting/keeping them out of the hands of criminals and the deranged.

I suggest one immediate process to examine:

Penalty phase. 

Why are we searching for two murdering maniacs escaped from NY?

Why does it take years to resolve a case because the death penalty was invoked?

Why do we wring our hands over punishing those who show such disregard for life?


Maybe if there was a little more fear of retribution for committing the crimes, people would be less likely to commit them.

Just some thought for the discussions that should be happening.


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## SouthernBoy

Cait43 said:


> How to stop mass shootings.........


Noir's absolutely correct about this. However the anti-gun side is more than willing to sacrifice lives in order to further their agenda. Hell, each and every mass shooting is food for their fodder. I would bet some of them actually hope for these events in order to come out and rant and rave against people like us.

I was born with the instinct, and therefor the right, of self defense. It is Natural Law. So if this is mine by birth, how am I suppose to employ this right against shows of greater force without the tools I must have to extend my attempts at self defense?


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## SouthernBoy

CW said:


> Prayer for the survivors.
> 
> Sadly there will be plenty of politics spewed everywhere instead of effective methods to deal with this stuff.
> 
> Guns wont disappear, nor should they.
> 
> But we do need to find best methods of getting/keeping them out of the hands of criminals and the deranged.
> 
> I suggest one immediate process to examine:
> 
> Penalty phase.
> 
> Why are we searching for two murdering maniacs escaped from NY?
> 
> Why does it take years to resolve a case because the death penalty was invoked?
> 
> Why do we wring our hands over punishing those who show such disregard for life?
> 
> *Maybe if there was a little more fear of retribution for committing the crimes, people would be less likely to commit them.*
> 
> Just some thought for the discussions that should be happening.


Though crimes are part of the human condition because there will always be bad people among us, when there is surety of punishment for one's actions, the incidences of those actions do decrease.


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## SailDesign

From a more enlightened forum....



> President Obama said this does not happen in any other developed nation.
> Yeah it doesn't. Other developed countries have health care and education provided. Other developed countries ensure a living wage. Other developed countries don't blame the poor. Germany does not allow display of the Hakenkreuz but the Confederate battle flag flies free here. We are not a developed country; we, by that I mean the ruling oligarchy of the US, are the school yard bully of the world


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## Bisley

Other countries don't have Constitutions designed to prevent the ruling elite from removing their freedoms, one at a time.

Is this the type of response you were trolling for?


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## SailDesign

No - not trolling. Waving goodbye, really.

I promised myself that if one person here said "It wouldn't have happened if they'd been armed" I was going to leave this forum.

Someone said it. I'm gone. I have asked how to remove my account but had no reply, so will just have to leave it to languish.

I will miss many of you. Some more than others. I'm on FaceBook if anyone has the Google-Fu to find me. It isn't hard.


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## Bisley




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## TurboHonda

RK3369 said:


> The news media talks about what do we do to avoid this in the future. Well, the fact is that there are always going to be mentally ill people in society. You can outlaw all the guns you want to outlaw but if someone bent on murder can get their hands on one illegally, it is still going to happen. The only answer is to allow legal weapon carry either openly or concealed to allow every citizen the right and ability to defend themselves from something like this. I think the people in the church would agree if they could reconsider their position of being completely helpless in the face of such evil. Truly sad, but we should fight to ensure that the survivors can defend themselves in the future. *Had the pastor been armed or allowed parishoners qualified to legally carry to do so in the church, those people might all still be alive.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> RK3369, thank you for your timely and effective post.
> 
> A few weeks ago our pastor mentioned in a sermon about the church's policy of never turning away anyone. It wouldn't be a church if it did. He went a little further to acknowledge that some of our church members legally carried, and that was OK too.


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## Bisley

Many churches in this area have designated 'guards' among their congregations, and very few ask their members not to carry. I know of one that actually has designated posts with well-defined fields of fire assigned to each.

I don't attend church, but my wife jokingly offered me to her pastor as a guard, after the Colorado incident of a few years ago. He told her he already had it covered, but that if it would get me in the door, I could bring my AR-15 and sit on a raised platform. :mrgreen:


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## gandog56

All IO know is it took Obozo about 2 seconds to start whining about how he can't get new gun control laws passed. What needs passing is easier carry laws. If somebody had been armed in that church how many would have been killed? The idiot had time to reload about twice!


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## CW

Seems the notion that an armed parishioner could have stopped this carnage is just that. A possibility. Its just as possible that the one carrying would have been the first casualty.

Consider many church goers trust their faith, not Col Colt. Many churches do not allow guns as it is a contradiction to their faith.
And before you say God ignored this situation, be reminded eternal life has only just begun for those faithful who died.
As to what happens on earth - it aint over.

But this is not about religion, as we hopefully agree the 1st Amendment is just as important as the 2nd.

But how is this society to respond?
I previously commented on changing punishments for such crimes as a deterrent.

Certainly the argument for arming citizens would hold more weight if we included in the statistics how many crimes have been averted because of the fear of armed law abiding citizens.

Even now the statistics for defense killings vs suicides, homicides, accidents is being touted. But nothing is included for the times when the presence of a firearm resulted in no deaths.
How many robbers got cold feet because of fear of engagement with citizenry? How many crimes were stopped cold ?

Then they try to compare the US to other countries. But then why do they all want to come here?
Maybe we can do more studies after islam takes over Europe, or when ISIS finishes their racist-religious cleansing. Oh yea, who gave _them _guns?


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## muckaleewarrior

SailDesign said:


> No - not trolling. Waving goodbye, really.
> 
> I promised myself that if one person here said *"It wouldn't have happened if they'd been armed"* I was going to leave this forum.
> 
> Someone said it. I'm gone. I have asked how to remove my account but had no reply, so will just have to leave it to languish.
> 
> I will miss many of you. Some more than others. I'm on FaceBook if anyone has the Google-Fu to find me. It isn't hard.


I saw where this idiot named Charles Cotton of the NRA blamed the pastor. But I am not surprised by such comments or any that are similar. Peace!


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## SouthernBoy

RK3369 said:


> They're going about it all wrong. Just simply ban ammunition. dont' have to worry about the guns then.
> 
> *I'm all for a gun ban in this country* as long as Obama and Biden and the rest of them agree to force their Secret Service bodyguards to go without guns. Hell, why should they be any different than the rest of us if they want us to give up our means of self defense. If getting rid of guns is such a great idea, I'm all for it, but Obama, you go first, then I'll turn mine in afterwards. Until then, hands off my guns.


Hell no, not me. I am not about to hand over my firearms even if somehow magically all crime vanished. There's still hunting, target shooting, and collecting.


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## CW

Maybe we can encourage more discussion on how to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible people.

Certainly a national firearms license is not a bad idea outright, its just the politics that naturally corrupt such a process and deny access to legitimate candidates.
Or the politics that may in fact grant access to those who should not have a gun.... but he's my brother's, nephew's, stepson.......

What is the threshold between a neo Nazi, and a historical re-inacter who favors Falshirmjagers and SS Panzer Lehr? What do we look for and who is qualified to make that judgment?

And is it really possible to get all these guns off the street, along with the drugs? I guarantee when the guns from US stop flowing, China, Brazil, and countless others will meet the demand.
Again, we need to look at ALL the whys and find different solutions for the problems instead of the fruitless arguments of using other nations as our example, 
Because for now it doesn't work here for we treasure our freedom much differently than the rest of the world.


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> Hell no, not me. I am not about to hand over my firearms even if somehow magically all crime vanished. There's still hunting, target shooting, and collecting.


Same here to that I'll add working on them. They've been a part of my life for 35 years. I get a lot of enjoyment out of them.


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## Steve M1911A1

Obama was fatuous enough to point out that "this sort of thing doesn't happen in other advanced countries."

Has he forgotten the _Charlie Hebdo_ massacre in France, the attack upon Mecca during the annual _hejaz_, attacks upon the Turkish minority in Germany, two separate school massacres in Great Britain, the sarin-gas attack upon a crowded subway in Japan, the attack upon Parliament in Canada, and the synagogue bombings, also in France.
That's not to mention the Guy Fawkes gunpowder plot, the beheading of England's King Charles I., the Glorious Revolution in England, the Terror in post-revolution France, the Stalinist terror in pre-WW2 Russia, the Spanish Civil War and Franco's terror, and our own American Revolution, and the expulsion of the Loyalists which followed.

What was it, that Santayana wrote about the need to remember history?


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## paratrooper

It's not a firearms issue. It's a human issue, as in mental defects. Man has been killing one another for one reason or another, long before firearms came to be. Man has fallen prey to his emotions for as long as we've been around. 

Killing is deeply ingrained within our DNA. It's a part of what and who we are. Nothing in this regard will ever change. Man is an absolute imperfect species. Until that changes, nothing else will either.


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## desertman

CW:


> Maybe we can encourage more discussion on how to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible people.


I think that's impossible unless someone can figure out how to keep any devise or materials that could cause death or serious bodily harm out of the hands of irresponsible people. How do you begin to stop an individual that is so full of hate from carrying out a despicable act of violence against their fellow man?

I guess we could start with our broken criminal justice system who continue to allow violent offenders to return to society. The hell with them. People who commit violent crimes that result in or could result in death or serious bodily injury to another innocent person should rot in prison for the rest of their natural lives under harsh conditions. For those who murder other innocent people take them out and execute them right after they're convicted. Better yet execute them in the same manner in which their victims died. Those who murder multiple victims should die a slow excruciating death. About the only way they can pay for each life that they have taken. Sex offenders and child molesters should be castrated and then thrown in prison also for the rest of their natural lives. You want to sell and or manufacture drugs? Plan on spending the rest of your life in jail. Same for people who burglarize and steal. These people are the dregs of society, I for one do not give a God damn about any of them.

Why do we allow these people to have long drawn out trials particularly when the evidence is overwhelming, they are caught red handed and there is absolutely no doubt that they are guilty? Trials that disrupt the lives for months or years on end of those who are forced to sit on juries. Listening to all of the bullshit spewing from the mouths of two liars for hire battling it out in a courtroom. Trials should only be held when there is reasonable doubt as to whether a person is guilty or not. This can all be cleared up before these individuals go to trial by the evidence that is presented.

I believe that if criminals knew that there would be bitter and drastic consequences that they would have to pay. The incentive for committing crimes would be all but eliminated.

Unfortunately these things will never happen as the system is run by lawyers and bleeding heart Liberals who coincidentally happen to be politicians. Who have designed the system to benefit the bottom line of lawyers, both for the prosecution and defense. After all if there were no more crimes committed or at least if crime were cut drastically their services would not be needed as much if at all. Obviously their services would be needed as individuals first embark on their criminal careers. But would gradually taper off as the message got out that there would be dire consequences to pay for their crimes. Instead of going after inanimate objects, when do we as a society say enough is enough? With regards to this type of criminal behavior and a criminal justice system that coddles it?


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## shaolin

Surely the father knew there was something off about his kid? Well if he had to reload 5 times so if someone would had a gun it would have made a difference. I bet some change there minds about ccw now because 911 is too far away when you need help. Mr. Gaston Glock and Mr. Ruger are always closer to me than 911.


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## Bisley

When this country was founded, they didn't name it Utopia. The plan was to establish a nation of free men who could prosper according to their own abilities and have free will to pursue any course they chose, as long as they didn't trample their neighbor's rights in the process. Nobody was naïve enough to believe that everyone would adhere to even such a simple mandate. Even then, you could have probably gathered any 100 men, randomly, and found murderers, thieves, adulterers, and perverts among them. 

All of the wonderful progress we have supposedly made has not changed the nature of human beings so radically that the misfits of society have disappeared. Even if we were to embark on a three hundred year crusade to eliminate the dregs of society by removing every implement of destruction, and every unkind word from the language, and ban every acknowledgement of our differences, we would still have people who would murder, steal, and act in perverse ways. If a murderer couldn't use a gun or a knife or a club, he would still find someone weaker whom he could strangle, drown, or starve to death.

The price of maintaining individual liberty is often so high that we question whether it is worth it. The impulse is to make rules and laws that salve our emotions for a time, even though we know that logically there is absolutely no reason to believe it will make the slightest difference. In the final analysis, the misfits of society have always been with us and always will be, and so will all of these ineffectual laws that whittle away at liberty, an inch at a time.


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## desertman

Bisley;
Excellent, "Bisley". Excellent. ^^


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## pic

SailDesign said:


> From a more enlightened forum....


I'm a northerner, but I respect the confederate flag. It's a flag that represents greatness, great Americans, people who should not be forgotten. I never once considered it a battle flag.
The people who fly the confederate flag could have had a father or grandfather or uncle who fought very bravely. Should they not be honored 
West Point was very divided, it was a time of uncertainty


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## Steve M1911A1

desertman said:


> ...People who commit violent crimes that result in or could result in death or serious bodily injury to another innocent person should *rot in prison for the rest of their natural lives* under harsh conditions...Sex offenders and child molesters should be castrated and then *thrown in prison also for the rest of their natural lives*...sell and or manufacture drugs? Plan on spending *the rest of your life in jail*...[emphasis added]


Do you have any idea how much this would cost?
It costs more to house a prisoner in a state or federal prison for a year, than it costs to attend Harvard University for the same period.

I'd free the drug sellers and users, or put them on probation-release. I'd completely decriminalize marijuana, except for DUI and similar, related problems.
But I'd prefer to kill outright the hard-drug manufacturers, and everybody who commits (or conspires to commit) a crime which leads to severe personal injury or death.

Caveat: But if you shoot someone in self-defense, the penalty I prefer may soon apply to you. Think about it. Zimmerman came awfully close to conviction, and his defense cost him more than he had...and more than he could raise.


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## pic

SailDesign said:


> From a more enlightened forum....


I agree ,
We are not a developed country, we rely on a constitution that's over 2 hundred years old, we didn't have electricity or any kind of modern firearms that we have today.
We live in fear, do not trust our own government, what's modern about us.
The NRA supports the 2nd amendment for the millions of dollars they receive. Do they really care about the 2nd amendment fir our benefit ?
.


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## TurboHonda

*l"*



pic said:


> I agree ,
> We are not a developed country, we rely on a constitution that's over 2 hundred years old, we didn't have electricity or any kind of modern firearms that we have today.
> We live in fear, do not trust our own government, what's modern about us.
> The NRA supports the 2nd amendment for the millions of dollars they receive. Do they really care about the 2nd amendment fir our benefit ?
> .


I may be unenlightened, but I don't agree. I rely on a bible that's older than our constitution. Newer is not always better.

I don't trust our evolved government, but I don't live in fear either.

I think of the NRA as an insurance company, as opposed to millions of self insured individuals with no voice. Of course they're in it for the money. Why would they not be?


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> I'm a northerner, but I respect the confederate flag. It's a flag that represents greatness, great Americans, people who should not be forgotten. I never once considered it a battle flag.
> The people who fly the confederate flag could have had a father or grandfather or uncle who fought very bravely. Should they not be honored
> West Point was very divided, it was a time of uncertainty


Actually what is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag is nothing of the sort. It is a battle flag and is known as the Stars and Bars or St. Andrew's Cross. The actual Confederate flag would not be recognized by most People.

That being said, thank you for your kind words for those who fell under that banner. That war should never have taken place. I'll stop with that.


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> I agree ,
> We are not a developed country, we rely on a constitution that's over 2 hundred years old, we didn't have electricity or any kind of modern firearms that we have today.
> We live in fear, do not trust our own government, what's modern about us.
> The NRA supports the 2nd amendment for the millions of dollars they receive. Do they really care about the 2nd amendment fir our benefit ?
> .


*"We are not a developed country.."*
Have to ask where you came up with that one. Since the later 1800's we have been the most developed nation on earth.

*"..we rely on a constitution that's over 2 hundred years old.."*
Which works quite well and was written by men far more educated and worldly than what passes for those currently occupying the three branches of our government.

*"..do not trust our own government.."*
No prudent person who loves liberty should ever trust their government. History is the greatest teacher.

*"..what's modern about us.."*
The answer is self-evident. The problem is where those in power want to take us.


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## Goldwing

SailDesign said:


> No - not trolling. Waving goodbye, really.
> 
> I promised myself that if one person here said "It wouldn't have happened if they'd been armed" I was going to leave this forum.
> 
> Someone said it. I'm gone. I have asked how to remove my account but had no reply, so will just have to leave it to languish.
> 
> I will miss many of you. Some more than others. I'm on FaceBook if anyone has the Google-Fu to find me. It isn't hard.


It is a sad state when a member of the party of tolerance has given up on those of us who see things in a different light. I hope that you aren't "GONE" as you put it.

GW


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## Steve M1911A1

goldwing said:


> It is a sad state when a member of the party of tolerance has given up on those of us who see things in a different light. I hope that you aren't "GONE" as you put it.
> 
> GW


"Liberals" just aren't really liberal, after all. That's why I call 'em "Progressives" instead.
And, no matter their protests, they bear half of the burden of forcing our government into inactivity by not being able to compromise.


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## pic

H


SouthernBoy said:


> Actually what is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag is nothing of the sort. It is a battle flag and is known as the Stars and Bars or St. Andrew's Cross. The actual Confederate flag would not be recognized by most People.
> 
> That being said, thank you for your kind words for those who fell under that banner. That war should never have taken place. I'll stop with that.


I did not know this of the confederate flag, thankyou.
:smt1099


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## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> "Liberals" just aren't really liberal, after all. That's why I call 'em "Progressives" instead.
> And, no matter their protests, they bear half of the burden of forcing our government into inactivity by not being able to compromise.


You need at least two players to create a stalemate, and we have plenty of players.


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## pic

SouthernBoy said:


> *"We are not a developed country.."*
> Have to ask where you came up with that one. Since the later 1800's we have been the most developed nation on earth.
> 
> *"..we rely on a constitution that's over 2 hundred years old.."*
> Which works quite well and was written by men far more educated and worldly than what passes for those currently occupying the three branches of our government.
> 
> *"..do not trust our own government.."*
> No prudent person who loves liberty should ever trust their government. History is the greatest teacher.
> 
> *"..what's modern about us.."*
> The answer is self-evident. The problem is where those in power want to take us.


I truly believe we as a country , is or wasn't ready for a black president. Myself included.
There remains a wide gap of acceptances, differences, culture.
I believe there's still plenty of racism in this country. I'm a rascist, I did not want Obama to succeed mostly because he is black. His succeeding would lead to another.
We are a very young country in this aspect of race.

I am not just referring to whites, I'm including blacks as equally rascist.
So how in the hell did anybody expect Obama to get anything passed through congress?
Obama, as I witnessed for almost eight years, became more racist through his actions and frustrations, he was visibly rattled at times. (would have liked to hear how he talked behind closed doors)as possibly a response to the racism he endured.

Obama started to appoint many blacks in positions of power, were they qualified because of their resume or skin color. I wonder.

There still remains plenty of segregation in this country, WHY? Because it works. All around this country everyday during lunch breaks ,blacks will sit with blacks,whites will sit with whites
FORCED integration creates problems. I believe it's something that needs to happen naturally.
I do not accept FORCED Segregation , BUT segregation happens naturally, all day ,everyday.

As each generation passes, integration becomes more visible ,acceptable , it needs to happen in a natural way.

This is strictly my personal view , others may see it differently, I am not an expert. Criticism is accepted.
:smt1099


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## SouthernBoy

pic said:


> I truly believe we as a country , is or wasn't ready for a black president. Myself included.
> There remains a wide gap of acceptances, differences, culture.
> I believe there's still plenty of racism in this country. I'm a rascist, I did not want Obama to succeed mostly because he is black. His succeeding would lead to another.
> We are a very young country in this aspect of race.
> 
> I am not just referring to whites, I'm including blacks as equally rascist.
> So how in the hell did anybody expect Obama to get anything passed through congress?
> Obama, as I witnessed for almost eight years, became more racist through his actions and frustrations, he was visibly rattled at times. (would have liked to hear how he talked behind closed doors)as possibly a response to the racism he endured.
> 
> Obama started to appoint many blacks in positions of power, were they qualified because of their resume or skin color. I wonder.
> 
> There still remains plenty of segregation in this country, WHY? Because it works. All around this country everyday during lunch breaks ,blacks will sit with blacks,whites will sit with whites
> FORCED integration creates problems. I believe it's something that needs to happen naturally.
> I do not accept FORCED Segregation , BUT segregation happens naturally, all day ,everyday.
> 
> As each generation passes, integration becomes more visible ,acceptable , it needs to happen in a natural way.
> 
> This is strictly my personal view , others may see it differently, I am not an expert. Criticism is accepted.
> :smt1099


You're not far off on some of this.

I would never vote for a black president, not would I ever vote for a female president. However, I would most definitely vote for a president who held my views and belief structure and who just happened to be black or female. I hope you and others see the point with that statement.

Leave people alone and they will do what they want. By this I mean do not try to force things upon them. Presently, I only know good black people and that may be due to where I live and with whom I associate. I could care less what color someone is as long as they are decent, are a person of character, honor, and dignity, and someone with whom I enjoy their company.

As far as racist, this country is not a racist nation. The only people who try to feed that nonsense to us are those who stand to line their pockets with the fears and hate that rhetoric generates. If people would just be people, they would quickly find that all of this crap would disappear.


----------



## desertman

Steve M1911A1:


> Do you have any idea how much this would cost?
> It costs more to house a prisoner in a state or federal prison for a year, than it costs to attend Harvard University for the same period.


The problem is they keep getting arrested over and over and over and over and over again. Each time they get arrested it costs a lot of money. They are then sent back to jail and we continue to pay the costs to house them. This does not even take into consideration the costs to their victims from their crimes. All too often we hear of these criminals with rap sheets a mile long. Sent to jail, released. Sent to jail, released. Sent to jail, released. Usually they end up spending most of their natural lives in jail anyway. Why not just keep them there from the beginning? My theory is that this would be a strong deterrent to committing crimes and reduce the criminal incentive. Likewise the prison population would therefore decline as there would be fewer people committing crimes.



> *I'd free the drug sellers and users, or put them on probation-release.* I'd completely decriminalize marijuana, except for DUI and similar, related problems.
> But I'd prefer to kill outright the hard-drug manufacturers, and everybody who commits (or conspires to commit) a crime which leads to severe personal injury or death.


I wouldn't. Probation-release is a joke. They will continue to sell drugs as a viable means to support themselves. Who the hell would want to hire them? The users will have to steal in order to support their habit as they too will have no means to support themselves. Often they will burglarize homes and all too often get a hold of weapons including guns that are not adequately secured. Obviously this presents a whole new set of problems not only for us as gun owners but society as a whole. My cousin was a heroin addict, started using drugs when he was 14, lived to the ripe old age of 42. He had been busted God knows how many times, been sent to rehab God knows how many times. None of it helped. His was a life of drug dealing, using and committing petty crimes. Surprisingly he never went to jail, even after he was involved and arrested in a multi million dollar drug distribution ring. I grew up with and know a lot of people that got involved with that shit. Wasted lives that never amounted to anything. They were my high school classmates and at one time friends. Two of them died just this past year, both in their 50's from a continuation of drug and alcohol abuse. They never had anything, never made anything out of their lives, never amounted to anything. Just a waste of what at one time was a perfectly good human body.

I'm not sure where I stand on marijuana. Part of me says legalize it, as prohibition of alcohol proved, was an abject failure. But where do you draw the line? Should other drugs be legalized also? It would indeed take the profit out of it. The war on drugs has also been an abject failure and as long as there are people who are willing to use that shit it can never be won. As it stands now with marijuana being illegal, those who sell it are part of the criminal underworld and drug cartels. In addition to selling marijuana they have access to and are introducing their clientele to hard drugs such as heroin, crack cocaine, crystal meth etc. While legalizing marijuana would take that product away from the drug cartels, they would still be selling the other shit. The question still remains: Would habitual marijuana users just use marijuana and not seek out harder drugs to satisfy there need to get high? I think not as most habitual users have addictive personalities and are willing to try anything to get high. I knew some people, who if other substances weren't available would resort to "huffing" which is the inhalation of glue, paint thinners, carbon tetrachloride or other noxious fumes. That's just how desperate they were to get high.


----------



## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> I would never vote for a black president, not would I ever vote for a female president. However, *I would most definitely vote for a president who held my views and belief structure and who just happened to be black or female.* I hope you and others see the point with that statement.


My sentiments exactly! It's about time we stop identifying ourselves by race, color, creed or nationality. Instead let's all be Americans. "United we stand divided we fall". The "Balkanization" of America must come to an end.


----------



## hillman

I have a different understanding of both habituation and addiction, and the potential inevitability of pot leading to 'hard' drugs for non-addictive personalities. I see the drug problem as an addictive personality problem which "The War On Drugs" is helpless to combat effectively. So... the "war" should end, with all that money and effort going to research and treatment for the addicts. We are stumbling badly right now, on both fronts.


----------



## hillman

goldwing said:


> It is a sad state when a member of the party of tolerance has given up on those of us who see things in a different light. I hope that you aren't "GONE" as you put it.
> 
> GW


Sail's withdrawal may have nothing to do with 'liberal-conservative' for all I know. I'm not a church-goer, but I can surround the concept of The church of Jesus being a place where weapons do not belong. Whether that is worldly possible or not I dunno.


----------



## desertman

hillman:


> We are stumbling badly right now, on both fronts.


Agreed! But the $64,000 question is how do you get through to people before they become addicts? Other than finding ways to treat and rehabilitate them after the damage is already done. Keep in mind all of the damage that they do not only to themselves but to their families, not to mention criminal activities that they are engaged in while they are servicing their addictions. A lot of which takes place before they are ever caught. For the most part people are not born into drug addiction unless the mother is addicted and passes that addiction on to their newborn. Somewhere along the line people make the conscious decision to use drugs. Getting to them first before they make that fateful decision should be our first priority. Just saying no, doesn't cut it.


----------



## desertman

pic:


> I did not want Obama to succeed mostly because he is black.


I did not want Obama to succeed as I am vehemently against everything that he and his party stands for. They really are one and the same. The color of his skin is irrelevant. The Clinton's who are both white happen to be the most detestable, loathsome swines that ever held public office. They are both proven pathological liars and hypocrites. It's incredible that people could even think of electing them in the first place. When I go into the voting booth it is the principles of the Democratic Party that I am voting against regardless of who their candidates are. Obama is indeed a racist and a black militant and indeed he did place like minded individuals in positions of power. Which certainly did not help race relations in this country, it exacerbated it. People such as Obama, Sharpton, Jackson et al thrive on racism it is the key to their power. Without racism they would never be able to achieve their success. However we can be thankful that not all blacks are like that, and we can not judge that entire race based on their actions and their actions alone.

It is the principles of the Democratic Party to keep blacks and minorities enslaved. They are nothing more than pawns that are being used in order to maintain their power structure. It is within the Democratic Party's best interests to support increased dependency on government. A government that they have complete control of.



> "But it is also true that a man may live and satisfy his wants by seizing and consuming the products of the labor of others. This process is the origin of plunder." --- The Law by Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850) French economist, statesman, and author.


----------



## Popeye77

I need find out what carson's views are on gun control. But the "minority" will not vote for him. He can help straighten this stuff out. He is Sharpton and Jackson's worst nightmare!


----------



## desertman

Popeye77:
Dr. Carson is a fine man and has come out in support of the 2nd Amendment and Conservative principles. He does indeed deserve our support.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

pic said:


> ...FORCED integration creates problems. I believe it's something that needs to happen naturally...
> 
> As each generation passes, integration becomes more visible ,acceptable , it needs to happen in a natural way...


Back in the '50s and '60s, I was saying the same thing about integration in general, and the Freedom Riders (voter registration) in particular.
It turns out that I was wrong. Voting rights and school integration, and to some extent social integration (in the workplace, for instance, and in the Armed Forces), had to be forced, sometimes at the point of the bayonet, just to get things started. "Jim Crow" died because integration was, at first, forced upon us.

If we wait for "nature to take its course," nothing will ever change.
To descend into metaphor, I call your attention to the struggle to allow automobiles to operate on the public thoroughfare. The first popular thought was, "They'll scare the horses!" That resulted in laws such as those requiring a flagman to _walk_ ahead of each auto, warning oncoming horse-drawn rigs of the danger.
Nobody spared a minute's thought to the many possible benefits of motor vehicles, for instance in moving large quantities of fresh, not-wilted farm produce at (relatively) high speed from the countryside to the food-hungry suburbs and cities. (Also, for instance, the disappearance of gallons of horse piss and tons of horse turds, and the attendant horse flies, and the resultant disease.)
But then automobile owners banded together, and formed associations which lobbied local and state legislatures, getting restrictive laws removed and permissive laws added. (What's the difference between the AAA and the NAACP? Functionally speaking, there isn't any,)
Automobiles and motor trucks were forced upon us. So was the Black person's right to vote. So should other forms of racial integration. If there is no force, there is instead only apathy and unnecessary - and counter-productive - resistance.
As the Gays said, so long ago, "We're queer, and we're _here_!" (_i.e._, deal with it).


----------



## desertman

Steve M1911A1:


> As the Gays said, so long ago, "We're queer, and we're here!" (i.e., deal with it).


That's pretty good, never heard that one before. I just wish they wouldn't be in your face with it. Same for heterosexual couples who express their emotions while in public. I've seen people who are all over each other. There's a time and place for everything.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

desertman said:


> ...I just wish they wouldn't be in your face with it. Same for heterosexual couples who express their emotions while in public. I've seen people who are all over each other. There's a time and place for everything.


Oh, I dunno...
Jean and I have always found the shopping-in-the-supermarket experience to be a total turn-on.
Although we haven't yet publicly smeared each-other's private parts with fresh, unsalted, Tilamook butter, we've come pretty close once or twice.
Of course, now that we're certified Senior Citizens, those urges are far weaker, and fewer and further between.
But if you come upon us in the cereal aisle, I suggest that you quickly turn away.
:smt033 :smt083 :anim_lol:


----------



## pic

When I finished grammar school , the sixth grade. I lived one city block from the school I was anticipating attending. 

That summer after the sixth grade I was notified of a forced integration school plan. 
So instead of walking one block to my neighborhood school I had to take a bus into the heart of a black neighborhood school. 

The school I attended was probably 85% black. I never seen such chaos an disorder in my life until my first day of school

I was honky, ******, cracker. One morning after getting off the bus I was approached by two older blacks while in the schools entryway , who pulled out a knife and demanded my belongings and empty my pockets. (They didn't attend the school) they were neighborhood thugs
I gave them everything they wanted, I only had a dollar in my pocket.
That school year
There were race riots at three or more of the forced integrated schools. 
Multiple stabbings , I was introduced to Molotov cocktails hitting the bus.

The forced integration lasted ,,, just that one year. 
When I talk about forced integration, I AM REFERRING TO BLACKS AND WHITES, not automobiles or horse shit.
:smt076


----------



## TurboHonda

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Oh, I dunno...
> Jean and I have always found the shopping-in-the-supermarket experience to be a total turn-on.
> Although we haven't yet publicly smeared each-other's private parts with fresh, unsalted, Tilamook butter, we've come pretty close once or twice.
> Of course, now that we're certified Senior Citizens, those urges are far weaker, and fewer and further between.
> *But if you come upon us in the cereal aisle, I suggest that you quickly turn away.*
> :smt033 :smt083 :anim_lol:


Oh NO! The dreaded fiber argument with dead hearing aid batteries. It's not pretty. I've witnessed it once and participated twice. :smt088


----------



## pic

pic said:


> When I finished grammar school , the sixth grade. I lived one city block from the school I was anticipating attending.
> 
> That summer after the sixth grade I was notified of a forced integration school plan.
> So instead of walking one block to my neighborhood school I had to take a bus into the heart of a black neighborhood school.
> 
> The school I attended was probably 85% black. I never seen such chaos an disorder in my life until my first day of school
> 
> I was honky, ******, cracker. One morning after getting off the bus I was approached by two older blacks while in the schools entryway , who pulled out a knife and demanded my belongings and empty my pockets. (They didn't attend the school) they were neighborhood thugs
> I gave them everything they wanted, I only had a dollar in my pocket.
> That school year
> There were race riots at three or more of the forced integrated schools.
> Multiple stabbings , I was introduced to Molotov cocktails hitting the bus.
> 
> The forced integration lasted ,,, just that one year.
> When I talk about forced integration, I AM REFERRING TO BLACKS AND WHITES, not automobiles or horse shit.
> :smt076


An article I found to back up my experience with integration

Reflecting on the RCSD's most tumultuous year,1971

Why shouldn't we integrate forcibly all neighborhoods, we'll have to get along sooner or later


----------



## Cait43

pic said:


> You need at least two players to create a stalemate, and we have plenty of players.


Pick me, pick me, pick me!!!!!! :smt1099


----------



## Cait43

I drove a school bus for a spell in the late '90's in Milwaukee......... I drove two types:

1. 220 kids --- This was a voluntary busing on the part of blacks being bused to mostly white schools.... By and large they acted rather normal for kids there age(grade,middle and high school).

2. Forced busing --- There were blacks and by and large most of them acted like savages.....

Just saying........


----------



## pic

Cait43 said:


> Pick me, pick me, pick me!!!!!! :smt1099


Ok , you've been picked. You can be my stablemate!
:smt033


----------



## Steve M1911A1

About *pic*'s experience with integrated schools:

The only kind of forced school integration which will work properly is the forced establishment of open-enrollment schools, and maybe even Charter Schools. Then the only way to get a high-quality education will be to attend a mixed-race school in which every pupil wants to be there.

It is not forced integration to make good students attend bad schools. That's merely forced chaos. ("Bad schools" is defined here as those in which neither the children, nor their parents, nor the staff have any investment in learning and discipline.)
I, too, went for one semester to one of the schools pic describes, a mid-Bronx, New York City high school. It must've been the model for the school in the movie _Blackboard Jungle_, except that _Rock Around the Clock_ wasn't playing on the PA system.

However, had pic (or I) been forced to attend such a school for his entire grammar-school (and/or high-school) career, I bet that his parents would've been down on that school's principal and his teachers like a ton of bricks. It's one way to successfully integrate a school system, and to improve its quality: Import students and parents who actually care.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

pic said:


> Ok , you've been picked. You can be my stablemate!
> :smt033


"Stablemate"? :horsepoo:


----------



## faststang90

I think what would end this is if it was a life for a life no jail time. I seen a thing where it said it cost like 34,000 a year to keep some one in prison for a year. I think people would think a little more if they new they was going to die if they did something like this.


----------



## Cait43

pic said:


> Ok , you've been picked. You can be my stablemate!
> :smt033


I will bring my own hay..........





​


----------



## pic

Steve M1911A1 said:


> About *pic*'s experience with integrated schools:
> 
> The only kind of forced school integration which will work properly is the forced establishment of open-enrollment schools, and maybe even Charter Schools. Then the only way to get a high-quality education will be to attend a mixed-race school in which every pupil wants to be there.
> 
> It is not forced integration to make good students attend bad schools. That's merely forced chaos. ("Bad schools" is defined here as those in which neither the children, nor their parents, nor the staff have any investment in learning and discipline.)
> I, too, went for one semester to one of the schools pic describes, a mid-Bronx, New York City high school. It must've been the model for the school in the movie _Blackboard Jungle_, except that _Rock Around the Clock_ wasn't playing on the PA system.
> 
> However, had pic (or I) been forced to attend such a school for his entire grammar-school (and/or high-school) career, I bet that his parents would've been down on that school's principal and his teachers like a ton of bricks. It's one way to successfully integrate a school system, and to improve its quality: Import students and parents who actually care.


That's a good description of the situation. I was maybe 12 or 13 yrs old.
There's a second part of the story, I quickly notified security and they caught the two . They were arrested and somehow through the arrest , they were implicated and confessed to a couple burglaries. I always wondered how they were implicated in the other offenses.
Maybe fingerprints. I know they had a few visitors while they were in custody.

I did have two uncles who were Rochester police officers, they were not happy,lol.
they sent the paddy wagon to circle the school for a couple days.
I alsot appeared before a grand jury. Yes ,I was pressing charges, that dollar they robbed from me was MY LUNCH MONEY,LOL.


----------



## pic

Cait43 said:


> I will bring my own hay..........
> View attachment 1317​


:anim_lol:


----------



## pic

Why is this shooting a racial shooting ?

What does the confederate flag have to do with this tragedy?


----------



## paratrooper

pic said:


> Why is this shooting a racial shooting ?
> 
> What does the confederate flag have to do with this tragedy?


I do believe that when the shooter stood up, and before he began shooting, he stated that he was there to shoot black people, or something similar to that.

He also had other well-documented negative issues in regards to the black race.


----------



## SouthernBoy

If I may, I'd like to voice my own thoughts about this event from last week... just four days ago.

I have been traveling to South Carolina for 46 years. I love the state, its culture, its people, its food, its weather... everything about it, and in particular the Lowcountry. The people of South Carolina are friendly, warm, and very genteel. And Charleston is one of the prettiest and best cities in this country. This tragedy is very disturbing to me because it took place in a part of the country I so love. That it happened in a place where no one would imagine. And that it took the lives of people doing peaceful things, talking about their faith and praying to their God, is especially heartbreaking and sad.

I am heartened and encouraged by the love pouring from Charlestonians who have come together to comfort those who are hurting so much because of this. White, black, it doesn't matter. They're all South Carolinians and all a special sort of folk. 

I shall continue to travel to that golden place in the Southeast and embrace all it has to offer. It is my plan to one day finish out my life in a little part of the state.

God bless the good people of South Carolina and of the beautiful city of Charleston. And God rest the souls of those taken so terribly four days ago in their church.


----------



## Bisley

There appears to be a large quantity of very decent people there.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

SouthernBoy said:


> If I may, I'd like to voice my own thoughts about this event from last week... just four days ago.
> 
> I have been traveling to South Carolina for 46 years. I love the state, its culture, its people, its food, its weather... everything about it, and in particular the Lowcountry. The people of South Carolina are friendly, warm, and very genteel. And Charleston is one of the prettiest and best cities in this country. This tragedy is very disturbing to me because it took place in a part of the country I so love. That it happened in a place where no one would imagine. And that it took the lives of people doing peaceful things, talking about their faith and praying to their God, is especially heartbreaking and sad.
> 
> I am heartened and encouraged by the love pouring from Charlestonians who have come together to comfort those who are hurting so much because of this. White, black, it doesn't matter. They're all South Carolinians and all a special sort of folk.
> 
> I shall continue to travel to that golden place in the Southeast and embrace all it has to offer. It is my plan to one day finish out my life in a little part of the state.
> 
> God bless the good people of South Carolina and of the beautiful city of Charleston. And God rest the souls of those taken so terribly four days ago in their church.


A lovely sentiment, beautifully written!
Kudos to you SB.


----------



## CW

Isn't the idea of law to codify opinion and justify the punishment of those deemed worthy - who break the law?

More of our problem today is the inability to accept or even ascribe blame for an offense.
It's like everyone has an excuse - and its someone else's fault.

Granted there is much more available to prosecutors in order to establish fact and credible witness,
but when we take those facts and sugar coat them in order to absolve our own justice system of the responsibility to punish crimes, we do a greater injustice. 

Yet, we desire mercy for ourselves so we sometimes extend it to others regardless of whether deserved or not. 
Maybe that is the human factor in each of us - even courts.


----------



## shootbrownelk

SailDesign said:


> No - not trolling. Waving goodbye, really.
> 
> I promised myself that if one person here said "It wouldn't have happened if they'd been armed" I was going to leave this forum.
> 
> Someone said it. I'm gone. I have asked how to remove my account but had no reply, so will just have to leave it to languish.
> 
> I will miss many of you. Some more than others. I'm on FaceBook if anyone has the Google-Fu to find me. It isn't hard.


 That's just plain silly Sail, I thought we could all agree to disagree. C'mon back.


----------



## paratrooper

shootbrownelk said:


> That's just plain silly Sail, I thought we could all agree to disagree. C'mon back.


Yup.....sad to see him leave. He and I exchanged some PM's not all that long ago. We hit on some topics and I encouraged him to ignore some members and voice his opinion as we all do. After all, this is just an internet forum.......it's not life or death.


----------



## hillman

paratrooper said:


> Yup.....sad to see him leave. He and I exchanged some PM's not all that long ago. We hit on some topics and I encouraged him to ignore some members and voice his opinion as we all do. After all, this is just an internet forum.......it's not life or death.


Yeah, he surprised me; figured he was dedicated to being the 'liberal voice' here. Still wondering if it's a guns in church thing.


----------



## TurboHonda

*"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."* _- Lenny Bruce _


----------



## TurboHonda

Duplicate


----------



## paratrooper

Politics and what side of the aisle someone might be on, has never bothered me in the least. Actually, I think it's rather silly to take politics too seriously. 

Of course, I feel the same way about religion. :smt083


----------



## Stengun

Howdy desertman,



desertman said:


> Get ready for another fight to preserve the 2nd Amendment.
> 
> Make no mistake about it the goals of the Democratic Party are to abolish the 2nd Amendment and Constitutional Law.
> 
> .


You do realize that since the Gun Control Act of 1968, aka GCA 68, that the only Pro-Gun Law enacted on a Federal level was passed by a Democratic POTUS, Obama, and a Democratic controlled Congress, right?

In fact, Obama is the only POTUS to EVER sign a Pro Gun law and is the only POTUS that has NOT enacted some Anti-Gun Law or regulation.

Our last three Republican POTUS were more Anti-Gun than Obama.

How quick people forget what they want to forget.

Paul


----------



## pic

shootbrownelk said:


> That's just plain silly Sail, I thought we could all agree to disagree. C'mon back.


I'm gonna miss SAIL, 
I just hope this proves that the progressives are quitters.

We fought hard, lost many great men throughout our many wars.

Just give the dam country away,,, the progressive's will.

Maybe ,SAIL, TOOK OFF TO CANADA. He's a conscientious objector


----------



## Bisley

Stengun said:


> Howdy desertman,
> 
> You do realize that since the Gun Control Act of 1968, aka GCA 68, that the only Pro-Gun Law enacted on a Federal level was passed by a Democratic POTUS, Obama, and a Democratic controlled Congress, right?
> 
> In fact, Obama is the only POTUS to EVER sign a Pro Gun law and is the only POTUS that has NOT enacted some Anti-Gun Law or regulation.
> 
> Our last three Republican POTUS were more Anti-Gun than Obama.
> 
> How quick people forget what they want to forget.
> 
> Paul


That only proves that he will make deals with a Democrat Congress that has allowed an amendment to a bill that they needed Republican votes for.

It is a complete deception for you to suggest that this makes Obama a gun-friendly president. For most of his time as president, Harry Reid was Senate majority leader, so any bill submitted by Republicans died on his desk without even being debated, much less submitted to the president for approval. The only bills he signed, that allowed guns in national parks and guns to be packed away in luggage on Amtrak, were amendments to bills that he supported for other reasons.

There is a mountain of evidence wherein he tells of his desire to restrict legal ownership of guns. Nobody has forgotten anything - they just aren't foolish enough to attach any significance to your ridiculous spin.


----------



## bluedog46

Stengun said:


> Howdy desertman,
> 
> You do realize that since the Gun Control Act of 1968, aka GCA 68, that the only Pro-Gun Law enacted on a Federal level was passed by a Democratic POTUS, Obama, and a Democratic controlled Congress, right?
> 
> In fact, Obama is the only POTUS to EVER sign a Pro Gun law and is the only POTUS that has NOT enacted some Anti-Gun Law or regulation.
> 
> Our last three Republican POTUS were more Anti-Gun than Obama.
> 
> How quick people forget what they want to forget.
> 
> Paul


Hell Paul

Good to know You. I am new here. I have heard this before. I disagree and that ( dont want to get banned being new ) Obama only did that in order to get something else the gun law was a rider on.

Are you a native arkansan?


----------



## Cait43

Stengun said:


> You do realize that since the Gun Control Act of 1968, aka GCA 68, that the only Pro-Gun Law enacted on a Federal level was passed by a Democratic POTUS, Obama, and a Democratic controlled Congress, right?
> 
> In fact, Obama is the only POTUS to EVER sign a Pro Gun law and is the only POTUS that has NOT enacted some Anti-Gun Law or regulation.
> 
> Our last three Republican POTUS were more Anti-Gun than Obama.
> 
> How quick people forget what they want to forget.
> 
> Paul


Curious, what was the pro-gun law that President Obama signed???

While it is true that President Obama has not sign any anti-gun laws but it certainty was not due to his lack of trying to get such laws across his desk to sign..... After any mass shooting he calls for anti-gun measures......

Found this on a Google search:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/obam...ical-collectible-m1-carbine-rifles-fate-86000

Sorry President Obama does not get a pat on the back from me concerning the no infringement wording in the 2nd amendment.........

The federal government has a track record of not being 2nd amendment friendly......

t





​


----------



## gandog56

Aww, if he couldn't have got a gun (Which he got due to a paperwork screwup, he shouldn't have been able to!) he might have just made a bomb. Then another southern black church bombing, just like in Birmingham years ago. At least this way he got caught fairly early.


----------



## bluedog46

SailDesign said:


> From a more enlightened forum....


Does not sound too enlightened. Just referring to that disgrace as president makes me think they have patriotism issues.



SailDesign said:


> No - not trolling. Waving goodbye, really.
> 
> I promised myself that if one person here said "It wouldn't have happened if they'd been armed" I was going to leave this forum.
> 
> Someone said it. I'm gone. I have asked how to remove my account but had no reply, so will just have to leave it to languish.
> 
> I will miss many of you. Some more than others. I'm on FaceBook if anyone has the Google-Fu to find me. It isn't hard.


Don't let the site hit you where the Lord split you. I am pretty new, but seems you were pretty out left and that is the same side wanting to fool with our guns.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> Obama was fatuous enough to point out that "this sort of thing doesn't happen in other advanced countries."
> 
> Has he forgotten the _Charlie Hebdo_ massacre in France, the attack upon Mecca during the annual _hejaz_, attacks upon the Turkish minority in Germany, two separate school massacres in Great Britain, the sarin-gas attack upon a crowded subway in Japan, the attack upon Parliament in Canada, and the synagogue bombings, also in France.
> That's not to mention the Guy Fawkes gunpowder plot, the beheading of England's King Charles I., the Glorious Revolution in England, the Terror in post-revolution France, the Stalinist terror in pre-WW2 Russia, the Spanish Civil War and Franco's terror, and our own American Revolution, and the expulsion of the Loyalists which followed.
> 
> What was it, that Santayana wrote about the need to remember history?


Why confuse people with facts. Also no other advanced country has a black president. ALso see the demographics of those countries without all the gun violence then look at ours and then look at who is committing it. I had read somewhere if you take Chicago, Detroit, and New York ( I think) that we go from one of the top nations for gun violance to one of the bottom. Very interesting. Which party controls those cities again? What are the demographic ratios.



pic said:


> I'm a northerner, but I respect the confederate flag. It's a flag that represents greatness, great Americans, people who should not be forgotten. I never once considered it a battle flag.
> The people who fly the confederate flag could have had a father or grandfather or uncle who fought very bravely. Should they not be honored
> West Point was very divided, it was a time of uncertainty





goldwing said:


> It is a sad state when a member of the party of tolerance has given up on those of us who see things in a different light. I hope that you aren't "GONE" as you put it.
> 
> GW





hillman said:


> Sail's withdrawal may have nothing to do with 'liberal-conservative' for all I know. I'm not a church-goer, but I can surround the concept of The church of Jesus being a place where weapons do not belong. Whether that is worldly possible or not I dunno.





Bisley said:


> That only proves that he will make deals with a Democrat Congress that has allowed an amendment to a bill that they needed Republican votes for.
> 
> It is a complete deception for you to suggest that this makes Obama a gun-friendly president. For most of his time as president, Harry Reid was Senate majority leader, so any bill submitted by Republicans died on his desk without even being debated, much less submitted to the president for approval. The only bills he signed, that allowed guns in national parks and guns to be packed away in luggage on Amtrak, were amendments to bills that he supported for other reasons.
> 
> There is a mountain of evidence wherein he tells of his desire to restrict legal ownership of guns. Nobody has forgotten anything - they just aren't foolish enough to attach any significance to your ridiculous spin.


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## gandog56

CW said:


> Seems the notion that an armed parishioner could have stopped this carnage is just that. A possibility. Its just as possible that the one carrying would have been the first casualty.


And if a LOT of them were carrying at the church?


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