# What would you do?



## mikej997 (Jan 26, 2008)

Recently my wife was out running errands and stopped by a bank to cash a check. Apparently, she missed an armed robbery by only about 15 minutes. There were cops and reporters swarming the bank. She does have her CCW, but also had the kids with her. It has had me thinking about how I would handle the situation if similarly presented.

Here is the situation. You happen to be in a public place (bank), with your family, and a character presents a firearm (say a shotgun for this example) and demands cash from the establishment. There are not any armed guards or other law enforcement present. He does not directly threaten you or your family. His attention is on the bank teller and you are off the the side and slightly behind him. The gunman is between you and the door. He has let his weapon be seen but has not issued command for everyone to get down or anything of the sort. The other people are just slowly pulling back from him in a sort of stunned silence. Do you pull your weapon and intervene, or try to stay below the radar and let him have any money he may get as long as he doesn't threaten you and yours?

I don't think any amount of money is worth risking the life of one of my family, but at any point this situation could turn violent. The parts of this that make it a difficult scenario for me is the risk to my family if I present a handgun to the situation, and would it be worth trying to stop if I could, or thought I could. If I knew he would only take the money and depart without firing a shot, I think I would let him go and just try to be a good witness. The problem is, how can you know? If you stood by with the ability to intervene and he shot someone, I think I would feel as bad as if I had caused it. On the other hand, what if my intervention was the catalyst to the situation and he started shooting then?

In this situation, in Colorado, I believe I would be justified in shooting if I thought necessary. 

What would you do:
Would you try to stay under the radar (not attract any undue suspicion) and watch it play out, calling 911 if possible?

Would you pull your gun and order him to drop his weapon (attracting his undivided attention)?

Would you pull your gun and shoot?

Do you have any other ideas as to how you would handle the situation?


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## Joeywhat (Apr 17, 2008)

Nope...wouldn't shoot unless that shotgun made it's way towards me or my family. It's not my job to protect strangers, and it's often illegal to do so. There is also no way I would ask for him to disarm himself...if the gun comes out I'm shooting.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

My standard respose to all scenarios: I carry for the protection of my family and myself. I would not intervene. However, I can't imagine myself ever being in a situation like this. I use the drive-thru pretty much exclusively. There is no need to trap myself in a place that clearly could be a target. And since NC doesn't allow CCW in banks, and I don't like to be without my gun, I stay at the drive-thru.

:watching:


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Draw and shoot until that threat is neutralized, moving to cover if possible. Then immediately look for other threats. Sometimes bank robbers have accomplices blending into the crowd, to take out anybody who intervenes.

Remember Cooper's Seven Principles of Personal Defense? One of them is Speed. You don't have time to wait to find out if he is going to kill you -- you have to assume he will. From concealment, I can draw and make a hit in about 2 seconds. If I wait until the shotgun is pointing at me, 2 seconds is too long. He can shoot me very dead in 2 seconds, if I give him that head start. No thanks. Displaying a weapon = an assumption that he intends to kill _you_. If not, then you will die while you are "waiting for the right moment." The right moment was about 5 seconds ago. You are already late, so you better hurry and try to catch up.

Cooper once described the perfect response to a bank holdup as "This is a stickup. Don't anybody " BANG BANG


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Bank teller's unborn twins die after shooting
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/25/teller.shot.ap/

As far as I know, the robbers/killers (notice, plural) are still out there -- maybe in your neighborhood?

Shoot. Now.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

I would not intervene unless it was aboslutely necessary to protect myself and my family. If I had to draw, I would immediately shoot to kill, I would not give the robber a chance to surrender, that would be putting myself and my family at risk.


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

I'd hope to handle it exactly as your wife did - miss the event by 15 minutes.

I have had some commercial involvement with banks and I can tell you every bank I know of train their employees to offer *no resistance* - zero - nada - in the event of a robbery. There is a good reason for this. Banks have spent alot of money analyzing this question and have determined this is the best course. In the overwhelming majority of bank robberies the perp wants out the door ASAP. They know the place is heavily surveyed and alarmed and that the bell has rung at the police station and they are probably already on their way. They'll take what cash they can get from the teller in front of them and vamoose. The bank feels no amount of money is worth an injury or death and the research says that resistance greatly increases that risk. The situation you describe falls into this category rather than a takeover.

In the scene you depict, I would move my family to cover or preferably out the door. In this situation I probably wouldn't even be dialing 911 because it could only attract unwanted attention from the BG and you can be just about 100% sure the cavalry is already in route.

But that's just me, guess I'm not a sheepdog.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

As per usual in intervention scenarios, I agree with *Todd* completely.

I am neither a "warrior" nor a "sheepdog."


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> As per usual in intervention scenarios, I agree with *Todd* completely.
> 
> I am neither a "warrior" nor a "sheepdog."


So you're a wolf? :anim_lol: Where's michael P. when you need him?

I would think if someone tried to rob a bank armed, they would try to prevent people from leaving. If he tried to hold me hostage I'd wait 'til he has his eyes trained elsewhere, then draw and send him to the floor. I've got better things to do than waste my time at the bank.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I've got better things to do than waste my time at the bank.


You mean like spend the next 6 hours in handcuffs in the back of a patrol cruiser while they sort all the crap that just happened out? If you think they are going to slap a medal on you and send you on your way, you are gravely mistaken.

A time when I had to draw my gun on someone, JUST DRAW, not fire, I spend the better part of 45 minutes in handcuffs in a patrol car. Yup, best 45 minutes I ever spent. Wasted alot of time travelling back and forth 100 miles to court dates to clear up the issue.

At this point in my life, unless I thought he was about to imminently kill someone, I'd lay still, but be ready. I might even thumb open the safety strap on my throwing star pouch.

hehehe

zhur


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> So you're a wolf? :anim_lol: Where's michael P. when you need him?
> 
> I would think if someone tried to rob a bank armed, they would try to prevent people from leaving. If he tried to hold me hostage I'd wait 'til he has his eyes trained elsewhere, then draw and send him to the floor. I've got better things to do than waste my time at the bank.


That is not correct. Most bank robberies are not the takeovers you describe at all. And a bank takeover robbery by one person is very rare indeed, since the cash is nowhere near the exit door he has to guard. Most are of the kind described in the scenario - the BG is trying to be as discreet as possible actually and would really like the event to be between him and the teller. If he's looking around it is to see if he's been noticed or if the cops are coming, not to shoot anyone who's leaving.

Let us say though that you were held hostage in the most famous takeover in U.S. history, out my way in N. Hollywood, CA. Your stated response would have gotten you and everyone in the bank killed. Except the bad guys, that is.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Get to cover, lay low, and avoid. Let him get his cash and go. Become a good witness. Get your hand near, or on your gun just in case... IF it's legal to carry in a bank in your state.

If you want to act like a cop, become a cop. They're hiring. The hours suck, and the pay is worse.

Until then, defend yourself and your family with utter ferocity... but not a trained bank teller.

JW


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## mikej997 (Jan 26, 2008)

I think that given the situation, I agree with Joey, Todd, well and Zhur too (except the ninja stars!:numbchuck::mrgreen. I would not intervene, but I would be ready to take action to protect my family. Probably with a grip on my gun (in a discreet manner of course) I would be trying to get my family moved away and into some sort of safety.
It just made me think about this one because it sort of hit close to home. The scenario I described is not exactly as it happened. The actual robbery occurred in a bank branch located in a grocery store. There was also apparently no gun seen. While I agree with the thought of just staying out of places that might put you at risk (i.e. without your gun), I don't think most of us, or our wives, can totally avoid going to the grocery store. The part of the scenario that made me ponder some was that right there is a BG with a gun threatening people, and I was thinking that I would let him walk if he didn't take it any further, even though I would be justified in shooting already.
I just wanted to see what the general opinion was. I see that it's divided as well. This particular BG is still at large. There were several witnesses who described him as being white, American Indian or Hispanic. He was between the ages of 30 and 40, was 140 to 190 pounds, and was 5 feet 2 inches to 5 feet 8 inches tall. I guess that proves the importance of being a good witness because the description covers about half of the men in this area.


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## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

An armed citizen really has only the right of self defense, which includes family members, and perhaps other citizens within proximity. The only logical, moral or legal justification one could have for intervening in the circumstance portrayed, would be to immediately save one's life or the lives of others if the suspects began to shoot people. 

Even then, how many people would really take action? It is one thing to talk about a firefight, but another thing to engage in one, perhaps with multiple opponents, in the open and at distances that would make it highly probable that everyone involved would be hit. 

I think that if one found oneself in such a situation and decided to act, one would have to move rapidly at the opponents to create surprise, get close enough to get hits under the extreme stress, and be willing to die for one's fellow human beings. The moment of truth!


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I'd be ready if things went south but otherwise I'd just be a coiled snake in sheep's clothing ready to strike if needed. Stay out of it if you can. It ain't worth dieing over somebody elses money.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

zhurdan said:


> You mean like spend the next 6 hours in handcuffs in the back of a patrol cruiser while they sort all the crap that just happened out? If you think they are going to slap a medal on you and send you on your way, you are gravely mistaken.
> 
> A time when I had to draw my gun on someone, JUST DRAW, not fire, I spend the better part of 45 minutes in handcuffs in a patrol car. Yup, best 45 minutes I ever spent. Wasted alot of time travelling back and forth 100 miles to court dates to clear up the issue.
> 
> ...


I was kidding about the "I've got better things to do..." I mean, I really do have better things to do, but yeah.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

CCW not permitted in banks depending on state. Check local laws first.

Priorities:

1. My Family
2. My Self
3. My Dogs

Per Castle Doctrine: If bank is not my place of work, look to get the hell out ASAP. If escape/evade not possible, photog on cell, dial 911. Avoid being noticed. Per CCW would not be carrying in back in first place.


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## LiberalCCW (May 26, 2008)

I had to go get a burrito while I thought about this one.

I've really just come up with self reflecting questions:

1) Will my training reflect itself in a high stress situation, involving a shotgun, bystanders, and my own family? - I'd like to think, yes.

2) If I'm with my kids, Am I more concerned with teaching them it's good be a hero or don't try and be a hero? Or do I shoot now and preach later?

3) _I, myself, don't associate with my biological family and have no near future plans to start one; so everyone I consider 'family' and truely care for have been, at one time, complete strangers. One of which I met at a gas station._ What is my level of concern for the safety of complete strangers? - honestly, i'd rather save a life at a high cost, than have cancer or such finish me off.

4) Are you willing to rot in jail if by chance a jury decides it was 'unreasonable force' or you unknowling broke a law by intervening?

I had a few more but seem to have forgotten.

Anyway... like Todd, I don't find myself in banks very often. I have a bad habbit of evaluating my surrounding everywhere I go and running scenarios and reactions in my head. Paranoid, military fathers can embed that in your mind. Banks are just too obvious of targets.

I can't say I would or wouldn't take the shot.


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## LiberalCCW (May 26, 2008)

Wyatt said:


> Let us say though that you were held hostage in the most famous takeover in U.S. history, out my way in N. Hollywood, CA. Your stated response would have gotten you and everyone in the bank killed. Except the bad guys, that is.


I'd agree Wyatt... but we're not talking full body armor and armor piercing assault rifles. In that case... I'd wet myself before I could even reach for my gun.


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

Right. As my post indicated, we are not talking about a takeover/hostage situation at all. The part of my post that you chose to quote was in response to a stated action in a hostage taking type situation such as a takeover.

BTW, I think my reaction if I'd been at that N. Hollywood BofA would have been similar to yours only more likely the #2 variety.


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