# What are your thoughts on the advice I've been given?



## LiberalCCW (May 26, 2008)

I was just thinking about this in the shower... figured I'd get your take on it. Also, didn't know where to post this. Hope this is the suitable location.

A few months ago I was talking with an older friend... I'll tell ya, older friends are like cheat sheets to the tests in life. One piece of advice he gave me seems pretty interesting and effective, but I'm wondering how effective or relevant it would be if your gun or police were later involved. I know it's effective on some level because he actually applied it when a tweaked vagrant told me he was going to stab me because I wasn't Willy Mays.:smt022

Anyway.. his advice (in first person):

When an agressor confronts you, who will potentially become violent (meaning, at this point he may be only shouting/advancing and hasn't actually attacked or brandished a weapon)say loudly and clearly, "Sir, you're scaring me. Stay ten feet away from me." If he continues to advance say, "Sir, you're putting me in fear for my life. Stay away from me."

At this point you will have attracted witnesses, while increasing the chance that they will testify in your favor.

If the aggressor does attack and you subdue him immediately without first trying to get away, it will already be established by the witnesses that you were in fact in fear of bodily harm and/or your life.​
_Let me just say that, depending on whether or not the BG has a weapon or depending on the type of weapon, I would first unitize years of martial arts training (maybe even krav maga with a gun.. but probably not) before ever taking out my gun._

So, all cheesy-ness aside.. Do you think it's effective? Relevant? How will a cop react to this? Most importantly.. Is it technically, though indirectly, lying to a police officer, and therefore should never be done?

What are your thoughts?


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Not really sure how to answer this. Where is the aggressor? Is he right in your face or is he 20 feet away advancing on you?

In your posts you seem very concerned about having witnesses. If you're in a self-defense situation, witnesses be damned! You stop to think about covering your ass and you're dead. If you *legitimately *feel your life is in danger, you stop the threat, then and there. You don't stop and think about hollering, "I fear for my life" hoping people will hear you before you shoot so you have someone back up your account of what happened. Worry about dealing with the LEO's and attorneys afterward. Survival is the top priority.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Castle doctrine only allows you to stand your ground in your home, car or place of work (last dependent on state). Your best bet is to attempt to de-escalate or leave.

"You don't need to see my identification. These are not the droids you are looking for. Move along."​
The reality is most people don't want to testify in court. Most don't want to get involved. If you are so hung up on what might happen in court, get yourself a $20 digital voice recorder. It will carry more weight in the end.



LiberalCCW said:


> I would first unitize years of martial arts training


Hmmm... another sheepdog? wolf? asthmatic pomeranian?


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll dissent with the other guys a little and say that witness management can be important. However, if you really think you're going to be able to spit out some long, perfectly-memorized soliloquy while a threatening person is walking toward you with a knife...well, you've probably never actually been in a fight.

My own version of witness management doesn't involve speeches almost as long as the Gettysburg Address. It's more like, "Drop that weapon - BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG THUMP."


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> I'll dissent with the other guys a little and say that witness management can be important.


I agree that having witnesses can be important. I'd rather have them than not. My point is simply the OP seems to be a bit overly concerned with making sure there are witnesses, when the primary concern should be self-defense, not setting up the perfect defense with the cops. I think any one of would agree that we'd rather be alive and trying to explain what happened to the cops with no one to back up story, than dead because we were to busy trying to attract the attention of a self-absorbed public before we actually defended ourselves.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

They do teach in some classes that a shout before the shot can help you out in many deals. If there is enough people around. I don't know about that. If he has a weapon there'e no question about what I would do. If he doesn't have one I may try to pop him in the snot locker if he's close enough, and get the heck out of Dodge. You might say I am a coward? Well that's OK, because I would rather be a live coward than a dead hero.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> I'll dissent with the other guys a little and say that witness management can be important. However, if you really think you're going to be able to spit out some long, perfectly-memorized soliloquy while a threatening person is walking toward you with a knife...well, you've probably never actually been in a fight.
> 
> My own version of witness management doesn't involve speeches almost as long as the Gettysburg Address. It's more like, "Drop that weapon - BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG THUMP."


Hey Mike, were those first 5 misses or is that pocket pistol not very effective? :anim_lol: :anim_lol:

:smt1099


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

TOF said:


> Hey Mike, were those first 5 misses or is that pocket pistol not very effective? :anim_lol: :anim_lol:
> 
> :smt1099


I shoot fast. :mrgreen:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

TOF said:


> Hey Mike, were those first 5 misses or is that pocket pistol not very effective? :anim_lol: :anim_lol:
> 
> :smt1099


Those first 5 were warning shots. :smt077


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

submoa said:


> Castle doctrine only allows you to stand your ground in your home, car or place of work (last dependent on state). Your best bet is to attempt to de-escalate or leave.


In MI the Castle Doctrine applies to "anywhere you have a legal right to be". While witnesses can be a great asset you better hope they accurately saw what actually happened and their perception of the danger level is the same as yours. Witnesses that are biased against you for various reasons may view an incident far differently than you do.

A couple of years ago in Detroit a white State Trooper shot a man and was supported in his actions by his dept. and superiors. There were black Detroit Police Officers arriving on the scene as the shooting occured that testified against him stating that he did not need to shoot the man. The man had his hands in his pants, advancing on the officer and ignored multiple warnings from the trooper. The entire incident was on video. The prosecutor charged the trooper and had him held without bail while awaiting trial. He was acquitted but not before his life was turned upside down. The biggest piece of evidence against him were the witness statements of the Detroit officers.


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## LiberalCCW (May 26, 2008)

I think what he (older friend) meant was that you want to use it before the physical confrentation... that way witnesses DO see the entire encounter. I guess I can see it working with drunk bums... who you typical see and hear coming... but with a straight forward attack, you'd of course have no time to care.

The only reason I was rehashing this in my thoughts was the fact that I have been fights where I wish I had had witnesses to back me up. I mean.. the fact that a judge will even considered letting a man (whose been arrested for harassment and trespassing) collect compensation for medical bills after swinging a iron rod or beer bottle at your head just blows my mind. Personally I think they were playing it up to be worse than it really was... but I can understand the desire to milk the situation for people like that... by people I mean, bums, addicts, or plain trash, not any specific race, gender, clan, etc.

Locals and shop owners around here are so freaking passive against harassment it makes me sick; I've been a lot more passive since carrying, for obvious reasons... But how many times do I have to walk a guy off the property in an arm bar before people will stand up for themselves? _Oh, but he's just down on his luck. All he wanted was some money..I can understand that he's angry._ Really? So where did he get the money for the booze and tweak? Oh you're missing a few items from your store... must just be lost in the clutter. EH!

I don't think this is necessary for situations involving the need for a firearm. Typically, I'm even comfortable disarming, with the exception of guns. I assume he meant it more toward hand-to-hand confrontation.

I don't think I'd really use it... or at least in full... I think a simple "Hey, Back off!" would work just fine. But I do see the need for witnesses when I think that I might have to give the BG an elbow to the temple.:numbchuck:

Thanks for the thoughts.


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## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

I would avoid telling an aggressor that you are scared. That would likely make him bolder, hence more aggressive. Do not sound weak or frightened. Telling him loudly to please leave you alone could be a good idea. Under those circumstances, witnesses might help in a situation where you could ultimately have to shoot him. But I would keep what you try to say simple and direct, and only in a single stage. I would not allow him to approach me a second time as an aggressor without taking some defensive action. 

I would also not tell him you are armed. Keep that as a tactical advantage if you need it. If you have to draw your weapon, then you can say something like "Stop now!" or "No more!" Do not say something like "Stop or die." Do not give any potential witnesses the idea that you have any intent to kill him. Say just enough to get the point across, and do not let the aggressor get too close unless you feel confident in your martial arts skills, and you have the intent to put him down, and he is not armed. 

If you choose to take him down physically, do not let him up. Get a wrist/finger lock on him and keep away from him, keeping pressure and pulling with the lock. Then he will find it difficult if not impossible to get to his feet. Once you have that advantage, you can hurt him if necessary, with less than lethal force.

That's my take on it.


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