# Night Shooting



## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

My experience is distinctively dated. When I was active we did not have laser sights, nor did we use rail mounted lights. In fact , the use of any light was a sure way to get shot. We were trained to shoot and move, and shoot and cover. One used the flash of one's own fire to build a picture for one's next shot. At times, we had the early star scopes that helped a great deal. I am not advocating these techniques, I am merely setting the limits of my own experiences. 

Now, much later, and as an armed citizen only, in several posts I have commented that I would rather have good night sights, like the ones on my Kimber, than a laser. Some people have disagreed, so I have been thinking of what tactics I would use with a laser sight. It seems logical, to me, that one would still have to light up the target with the laser in a brief flash, fire, and then move quickly to avoid being shot. Remember, most of the time one's pistol is in front of one's head, with the entire body below. 

Any light, in my opinion, provides an excellent target for return fire. I realize that one is rarely in pitch darkness, but it does happen. Even moderate darkness makes target aquisition difficult. 

In the past I have seen police use the extended arm tactic for flashlights. My experience with rail lights is nil. I cannot see the use for them for an armed citizen. They seem like just one more element to have to think about in the chaos of a crisis and a beacon for incoming rounds. 

My tactic for night shooting is to use field anomaly to discern targets and then the night sights to plant my aim; all from effective cover if possible. I also have snap lights that I might consider tossing towards a potential assailant to light him up. I light up animals at night sometimes with them, but I do not shoot them. The snap lights illuminate the targets well. 

I am quite interested in anyone's experiences or perceptions of the more modern tools available in night shooting for an armed citizen. So far I have not seen anything out there that appeals to me more than night sights and constant motion.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Unless you're out in a field searching for enemies, I doubt a tac-lite would give away your position. Even zombies can't see light very well.

For a CCW, a rail-mounted tac-lite doesn't make sense. It won't fit in a holster, and if you're attacked in the dark, you'll have enough trouble getting the gun out, flipping the safety off, and firing without having to try to turn on a tac-lite.

For a HD gun, they're an excellent investment. You can use them to illuminate a room, get a positive ID on a person, and blind a home invader. Even if the BG is alerted to you sneaking around clearing the house, in the quiet of night, he'll hear you. The light's not giving away your position any more than the sound of your footsteps. Plus, sneaking around in the dark with a loaded gun (especially a long gun) is tricky and dangerous.

If you want a light to carry while you're out and about, look at the Surefire Defender. It puts out 120 lumens, which is plenty to see and blind someone, and both ends are crenellated (Strike Bezel). You can drill someone pretty hard in the face with the aluminum teeth:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> For a HD gun, they're an excellent investment. You can use them to illuminate a room, get a positive ID on a person, and blind a home invader. Even if the BG is alerted to *you sneaking around clearing the house*, in the quiet of night, he'll hear you. The light's not giving away your position any more than the sound of your footsteps. Plus, sneaking around in the dark with a loaded gun (especially a long gun) is tricky and dangerous.


I'm against clearing the house. Too many things can go wrong. No need to go looking for trouble. IMO, it's safer to call the calvary, grab your family, hole up in a bedroom, and wait for the guy to stick his head around a corner and ...

Staying on topic, in a night time HD situation I'm starting to lean to the mindset that having a laser would be a good thing. I'm looking into a Crimson Trace for my XDSC.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm not against lasers as once they're zeroed, when the dot is on the target, what you see is what you get. However, if it's too dark to see your target, a laser won't do jack.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Teuthis said:


> My experience is distinctively dated. When I was active we did not have laser sights, nor did we use rail mounted lights. In fact , the use of any light was a sure way to get shot. We were trained to shoot and move, and shoot and cover. One used the flash of one's own fire to build a picture for one's next shot. At times, we had the early star scopes that helped a great deal. I am not advocating these techniques, I am merely setting the limits of my own experiences.
> 
> Now, much later, and as an armed citizen only, in several posts I have commented that I would rather have good night sights, like the ones on my Kimber, than a laser. Some people have disagreed, so I have been thinking of what tactics I would use with a laser sight. It seems logical, to me, that one would still have to light up the target with the laser in a brief flash, fire, and then move quickly to avoid being shot. Remember, most of the time one's pistol is in front of one's head, with the entire body below.
> 
> ...


I'll tell you what! I see it exactly the way you see it. If you produce light you are a better target plus you loose some of your dark vision too. Like Todd I'd wait and not hunt if I knew an intruder was in the house. If you see that nice little cherry red glow you've found your target and it's even better with a tack light. You might even be able to flank a guy with a regular light as he will have tunnel vision to some extent.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

gmaske said:


> If you produce light you are a better target plus you loose some of your dark vision too. Like Todd I'd wait and not hunt if I knew an intruder was in the house.


Tac-lites are for more than just producing light so you can see. Leave it off as you're waiting, and when a figure comes into the room or into your sights, flick it on. Not only will you take away HIS dark vision, you'll blind the hell out of him, and get a 100% positive ID on the target. This is when you rack the slide on that 12-gauge. The schick-schick is intimidating enough, but it's even scarier when there's a bright blinding light shining on your face and you can't see anything behind it.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

My experience is mainly military. We issued our guys Surefire weaponlights for their M4s. They liked them a lot, and our guys kicked in a heck of a lot of doors. None of our guys were killed - or even hurt - because the light was a "beacon" for incoming rounds. They did, however, kill a whole bunch of bad guys.

A light is very useful for target identification, allowing one to obey Rule Four ("Be sure of your target."). With a bright modern light, one need not point the weapon directly at an unidentified person. Rather, one directs the beam _near_ the potential target and residual light illuminates sufficiently for target ID.

Bright modern lights can be used to blind the opponent. I don't entirely subscribe to the Surefire marketing ploy of a "wall of light," but have someone shine you in the face with even a relatively weak 65 lumen light in the dark. Your head will reflexively jerk away. It would be good if this happened to your opponent.

Tests run by the knowledgeable Marty Hayes (from Firearms Academy of Seattle) and some others have shown several times that shooting performance in low light increases substantially with laser sights versus just tritium night sights. This is especially so for firing from awkward positions and shooting on the move. I do not have lasers on my carry pistols, since for me the downside of bulk outweighs the advantages in pure shooting, but I recognize their utility.

I generally use the neck/jaw light position for scanning, and Harries for shooting. I've also been trained in the Chapman, Ayoob, and Rogers techniques, but have never been entirely comfortable with them. I keep a Surefire E2e (converted to LED) in my pocket at all times, and it rests at my bedside when I sleep. While I realize that a slim chance exists that a home invader may shoot at the light, I will take that chance in exchange for being able to properly ID a person in my home. I obviously have no desire to shoot my daughter, wife, or a houseguest.


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## propellerhead (May 19, 2006)

I read an article that pretty much says the laser dots are only good for keeping aim at a bad guy already on the ground while you call 9-1-1. It allows you to briefly focus on the phone keypad while still keeping your aim. They go on and say that holding a bad guy at gun point could also land you in a heap of trouble in some states and best left to the LEO if at all possible.

The IDPA club I shoot with runs low light matches every so often. The people with laser dots seem to spend more time wiggling their gun to get that dot on target. It seems really easy while sitting on your lounge chair. It's not that easy if you are moving or leaning around a wall or barricade. People with night sights do much better. I'm one of those without night sites so the flash from my first shot builds the picture for my next one. 

Actual low light shooting is quite an eye opener.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Like any other tool, laser sights require practice to use effectively. The "wiggling" goes away if you train with them in low light scenarios. This can sometimes be a difficult practice session to set up, however.

I think a lot of shooters buy lasers and think they will just magically work.


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## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

My comments are directed at armed citizen tactics. There are certainly some military uses for tactical lights; such as entry actions in close quarters. There are surely good police use for them too. 

But in a military fire fight at night, one cannot even maintain a position after firing, lest multiple incoming rounds, aimed at your flash, strike your position. I think the same thing applies to an armed citizen who might encounter adversaries at relatively close range at night. 

I agree with Todd in the concept of not going hunting. A stationary armed citizen in the dark will have the advantage of seeing movement against the field, and using night sights to target the adversary if necessary. I have been practicing sighting at night out on the patio with my Kimber. The night sights come right onto any target I can see, no matter how dim. Right now I still prefer the night sights, but I do want to try out a laser sight and see how fast I could aquire the target and fire.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Teuthis said:


> There are certainly some military uses for tactical lights; such as entry actions in close quarters. There are surely good police use for them too.


Why do only police and military need to identify their targets before firing? White lights are not intended primarily as a _shooting_ aid, but rather as a _target identification_ aid. It is possibly even more imperative for armed citizens to positively ID their targets before firing than military personnel. A certain level of collateral damage is acceptable in the battlespace, but is entirely unacceptable in civilian America.

I cited military experience because soldiers typically face opponents who are far better armed that the average criminal in America. If our AK-armed, combat-experienced opposition in Afghanistan was unable to use the white light as a "beacon" and kill our soldiers, it seems unreasonable to think that the average pistol-armed, relatively inexperienced American criminal could perform such a feat on a predictable basis.



> But in a military fire fight at night, one cannot even maintain a position after firing, lest multiple incoming rounds, aimed at your flash, strike your position. I think the same thing applies to an armed citizen who might encounter adversaries at relatively close range at night.


One of the central tenets of the post-modern school of defensive shooting is movement. Move when you draw. Move as you fire. Move to cover. Move after you use your light. Nothing prevents an armed citizen from using a "flicker and move" technique with his white light, just as a soldier moves after firing. This is entirely accepted in post-modern defensive shooting circles.



> The night sights come right onto any target I can see, no matter how dim. Right now I still prefer the night sights, but I do want to try out a laser sight and see how fast I could aquire the target and fire.


That's all well and good, so long as you can _identify the target_ in addition to being able to see your night sights or laser dot. But again, the essential purpose of the white light - whether handheld or mounted on the weapon - is to allow positive target ID. This may be a very brief blast of light followed by a burst of fire. But it may also be a blast of light followed by silence, when a family member is illuminated.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> the essential purpose of the white light - whether handheld or mounted on the weapon - is to allow positive target ID. This may be a very brief blast of light followed by a burst of fire. But it may also be a blast of light followed by silence, when a family member is illuminated.


Exactly the reason I have a Surefire tac-lite on my 870. Odds are I'll never need to use it, but in the event I have buckshot in the chamber and the safety off, I want a 100% positive ID on my target so my finger knows whether or not to enter that trigger guard.

It's also nice for camping. When I camp, I camp way off trail, so anyone walking into our camp is not taking a midnight stroll down a dirt path to Gray's Arch. So when I'm cooking on the fire or snuggling down in the tent and I hear loud, pronounced footsteps approaching my campsite, a light mounted on my shotgun is a nice thing to have. Seriously, you gotta be careful in the woods. Zombies are everywhere. :anim_lol:


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## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

I tried out some laser sights. I can perceive that with a great deal of practice, in almost any light where one can discern a target, they could possibly help get onto the target quickly. But as Mike says, a lot of practice. I think I can do the same thing with my night sights though. The laser does not interest me at this time. 

As an armed citizen, I am probably not going to go "hunting" for someone in the dark. They are most likely coming to me. Once I have accounted for everyone on my side, then any anomaly in the field before me is a potential target. Where I live I would have to be concerned about police or Border Patrol, so I would not automatically fire at an anomaly. But from cover, I could be aware of targets as they are moving, and have my sights on them. 

Yes, I think a white light might be a good idea at times; but not in front of my face. If someone shoots at a light I am holding they will be shooting arm's length from my head and torso. However, the white light would be a last resort for me under shooting conditions.


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