# unidentified rifle?



## traksta15 (Feb 22, 2010)

My dad was showing me some of the guns his dad had passed down to him and the story behind this particular model is this:


My grandpa was plowing (with horses, showing his age) this was approx 1933-35 as my grandpa was born in 1924, when he realized he hit something with the plow, he dug it up and it was the butt of a rifle, he put it aside and kept plowing and hit the other half. Apparently someone had broken it down (punched a pin/rivet out) and taken the 2 pieces apart and buried it, it'd had been there for who knows how long. All I know about it is it's awinchester 12 ga, single shot rifle, has approx a 32-34" barrel, kicks like a mule and has the word "leader" stamped on the top of the barrel, im not to knowledgeable about firearms, my dad knows more about them than I do, but with no real information or serial number on the gun it's hard to know anything about it. I'll try to get a pic if I can but the gun is at my dad's house 1.5 hours away, any info at all would be greatly appreciated guys. Please help a noob out!


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Problems:
• A "12 ga" isn't a rifle, but rather a shotgun.
• A "Winchester" wouldn't have "Leader" stamped into its barrel. However, it might be a Sears or Monkey-Ward house-brand gun.
• It had been buried, but still was in firing condition? Couldn't've been buried for very long, I think. Might be a crime gun.

No further information is possible without pictures.


----------



## traksta15 (Feb 22, 2010)

sorry for the rifle/shotgun confusion, what would the "leader" mean? They had lived there for years and years and no one had found the gun, my dad remembers growing up and his dad cleaning it up and shooting it. We were thinking it was a crime gun, why would someone take it apart and bury it so carefully.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Leader and Star Leader were just 2 of over 90 house brand names produced by Crescent Fire Arms Company from the late 1890s till the mid 1930s. they were double barrel side by side 12 gauges sold thru hardware and auto parts stores. very inexpensive with little collector interest.


----------



## traksta15 (Feb 22, 2010)

ok, my bad guys. it wasnt a winchester, apparently my dad had a gunsmith look at it approx 15 years ago and said something like "a pre smokeless gun power and it was either made by iver johnson dating between 1898-1906 or possible designed by john browning for another company like winchester. It wasnt the best gun in it's day but they're hard to find all original these days. Any insight on this? I have no idea what all this means, Im trying to get a pic of it now.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

traksta15 said:


> ok, my bad guys. it wasnt a winchester, apparently my dad had a gunsmith look at it approx 15 years ago and said something like "a pre smokeless gun power and it was either made by iver johnson dating between 1898-1906 or possible designed by john browning for another company like winchester. It wasnt the best gun in it's day but they're hard to find all original these days. Any insight on this? I have no idea what all this means, Im trying to get a pic of it now.


nope, done all i can with conflicting info ........ need multiple pics now , all markings, the lock, the trigger and guard, overall etc etc etc.... without pics now it is about the same as having a blind man guess the right shade of blue paint from one of those color displays at sherwin williams.


----------



## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

Any of you ever shoot the M1 rifle. :supz:


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Cat said:


> Any of you ever shoot the M1 rifle. :supz:


Huh?


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Huh?


+1..... actually, never mind!


----------



## traksta15 (Feb 22, 2010)

ok, got some pics:


































from what ive been told it may have also been made by c shattuck company, out of massachusetts between 1878-1909, shattuck also market guns for iver johnson. has anyone head of these guys?


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Since you did not photograph any markings, I can't tell you much.

Shattuck was a sales office, not a manufacturer, I believe, and they marketed the products of several New England factories.

"Leader" would be a house-brand name, either for Shattuck or for one of their customers (_e.g._, Sears, Roebuck and Co.).

The interesting thing about your old gun is its action. There's a hammer and a trigger, of course, but there's also some sort of ring-trigger within its trigger-guard. I have to assume that the ring-trigger opened the action for ejection and loading, since there's an external hammer to cock. Am I correct?
I've never seen this configuration before.
Maybe Ted knows something about it.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i have been looking into this for hours and found a few other threads on other forums and can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that i got nothing to add..... 

there are a few of these around, no one knows if its a cs shattuck (based on a shattuck butt plate) or an iver johnson (based on the the ring guard lock release patent) or a crescent (based on the leader name)..... 

one thing is pretty certain, you can make up any good story you want to and most likely no one will ever be able to dispute it! 
based on the condition and age its NOT a shooter, but a nice wall hanger. value will be sentimental only , in my opinion. i will be following this thread closely tho, i hate being stumped.


----------



## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Interesting old guns. I remember a friend owning one when I was growing up. Pretty sure it is an Iver Johnson, although they may have offered it for sale under other "store brand" names, as Steve said, above. Looks like the original patent on the action may have been assigned to O. F. Mossberg. Here are a few links to similar guns:

Iver Johnson Single Shot 12 ga Shotgun Used

TO MARY - Google Patents

Shotgun ID help

Ring Release Iver Johnson Iver Johnson Shotguns for sale, gun classifieds or gun auction from TWIN OAK ARMS. Buy or bid on this Ring Release Iver Johnson in the category Iver Johnson Shotguns on GunsAmerica.


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

DJ Niner said:


> Interesting old guns. I remember a friend owning one when I was growing up. Pretty sure it is an Iver Johnson, although they may have offered it for sale under other "store brand" names, as Steve said, above. Looks like the original patent on the action may have been assigned to O. F. Mossberg. Here are a few links to similar guns:
> 
> Iver Johnson Single Shot 12 ga Shotgun Used
> 
> ...


the OP photos show a more pronounced hammer than the iver/mossberg "semi hammerless" model. also the iver has a smooth surface at the left side of the receiver, almost looks like the OP is a take down model of some type? the trigger guard is different in the OP, wonder if they were licensed by iver to use the ring release or if it was just a blatant rip off? (wouldnt be the first time)


----------



## traksta15 (Feb 22, 2010)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i have been looking into this for hours and found a few other threads on other forums and can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that i got nothing to add.....
> 
> there are a few of these around, no one knows if its a cs shattuck (based on a shattuck butt plate) or an iver johnson (based on the the ring guard lock release patent) or a crescent (based on the leader name).....
> 
> ...


Yeah it's only been shot once since my dads been alive, we agreed to just put it above a mantle and talk about it lol.


----------



## m113deleta (Nov 11, 2013)

C.S. Shattuck Arms Co., Hatfield, Mass. (1878 to 1908)

In 1875 C.S. Shattuck and Andrew Hyde started a pistol manufacturing business in Springfield, Mass. In February of 1877, Andrew Hyde and Major Charles S. Shattuck brought their Springfield pistol manufacturing business to Hatfield and went into a partnership with Mrs. Mary D. Porter in the Thomas Meekin sawmill on Prospect St., formerly Crescent Pistol Co. est. 1874 (Shattuck possibly also had, concurrently or otherwise a gun shop on Bridge St. in Hatfield, dates unknown). In 1878 Mrs. Porter withdrew her partnership and the business was continued by Hyde and Shattuck. In 1880 Shattuck bought out Hyde and continued the factory alone, turning out many revolvers. Soon after he began to make single-barreled breech-loading shotguns, and then few years later double-barreled shotguns. Large quantities of both were made, averaging for a time 15,000 guns per year.

The gun shop was burned in 1881 and was immediately rebuilt on the same site. The manufacture of guns was abandoned in 1909. In 1910 the only arms being turned out was a new four-shot pistol*, but for how long is unknown.

Major Charles S. Shattuck served with the 6th Vermont Infantry in the Civil War and later lived on Main St. in Hatfield, Mass. He returned at least once to Vermont for a military reunion.

Shattuck was best known for inexpensive handguns and single barrel shotguns. Their single barrels are valued from $35 to $150, double barrels $100-$400 depending on condition. The 8 bores may command more.


----------



## m113deleta (Nov 11, 2013)

Ring Trigger Opening Model

12 or 16 gauge, 30" or 32" twist or steel barrel, made from 1890 to 1909


----------



## m113deleta (Nov 11, 2013)

If you ever decide to get rid of it let me know.


----------

