# What handguns don't you like?



## m3coupe4me (Aug 18, 2008)

For comparison's sake, member Submoa suggested I look into handguns people don't like so I can get a comparison on (perceived) "bad" guns vs. "good" guns. He raised the question, "how can I know what a good gun is like if I haven't really had experience with a bad one."

So in all of your experiences, what are some "bad" handguns I should look to try? Why?


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## dandanthearmyman (Aug 12, 2008)

I dis like a the army m9 we should have never switched from the 1911. Unless it could be for a P1445 LDA


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I prefer to look at in terms of features. I like guns with low bore axes, short trigger travels and resets, good sights, safeties that work in concert with normal human hand motions, reliability as close to 100% as I can get, and no sharp edges. I don't particularly like guns that lack these features.

Incidentally, I carried an M9 for a year in Afghanistan and was pretty satisfied with it. I think it's a _much_ better choice for today's military than the 1911.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Real small .22/.25 auto's knowed as the Staurday-nite specials. Out of South America. Anything made by Bryco-Jennings. Never seen any blowup but I have seen a lot that were accidents looking for a place to happen. :watching:


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Anything with a mag release on the butt of the gun. I realize some really famous Euro designs have used them, but they just don't work for me. Also, anything that costs less than $250 or so. There are probably a few good ones to be had near that cost, but much less than that, you are buying something with the cheapest possible components and that is just not a good investment.

I personally like several different guns. Kimbers, Glocks, HK's, Kahr's, Beretta's, Springfields, Rugers, FN's, but I collect guns for the appreciation of their form and function, not just because I like to shoot them.

Zhur


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

If it's for defensive purposes, I HATE any gun that does not go bang 99.99% of the time. 

After that, it's personal taste, and what you shoot accurately.

For target shooting, you're talking a different animal. But for basic paper-punching, 2-4" accuracy at 10-15yds, and utter reliabililty, stay with a modern design, $400-600 gun. For beginners, pick a good high-capacity, low maintainance 9mm, and shoot the hell out of it... 100 rounds per week.

When you get 4-6 months dow the line, shoot some more guns, refine your tastes, practice, practice, practice.

Unreliable guns? There are exceptions to every rule. There are "bad" Glocks, and "perfect" Tauruses... But for $400-600, in a modern 9mm, 90% of the guys on this sight would be happy with a Glock, XD, or M&P. Rounding out the pack would be the Kel Tec, Ruger, and Walther guys, and then the pricier Sigs and HKs. They're all excellent guns, just do your shopping, and shoot as many as you can.

Good luck!

JW


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## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

I never met a handgun I didn't like.

A few I learned to dislike, however. These are those that scatter my empty cases all around, and those that fail to group consistantly.

I prefer to shoot, when possible, at longer ranges, fifty to one hundred yards. And, guns that have the potential to put down an elk or a white tail deer..

Bob Wright


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

m3coupe4me said:


> what are some "bad" handguns I should look to try?


The statement that *submoa* made makes sense although I don't believe he was referring to testing all sorts of "bad" guns. People usually DON'T LIKE certain guns based on their own personal preferences. For example, somebody may indicate a specific gun that is not to their liking, you may test that same gun for yourself and like it based on YOUR preferences.


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## bill5074 (Jun 23, 2008)

I would not slam any particular brand, even though there is some JUNK out there. As the other guys said it is really personal preference. I have my few favorites, but I will not talk bad about anybody elses guns, as it is not appropriate. Look at the major brands, shoot them if you can and see what you like best. Whatever you like is the right gun. :smt1099


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

A "bad" gun?
I nominate every .25 ACP pistol there is.
Why? Because the .25 is absolutely ineffective as a self-defense round, so if one carries a .25 thinking he could defend himself with it, there is delusion involved. Therefore, the .25 ACP is a bad gun because it promotes or encourages self-delusion.
:smt033


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> A "bad" gun?
> I nominate every .25 ACP pistol there is.
> Why? Because the .25 is absolutely ineffective as a self-defense round, so if one carries a .25 thinking he could defend himself with it, there is delusion involved. Therefore, the .25 ACP is a bad gun because it promotes or encourages self-delusion.
> :smt033


Heh heh heh!

Of course, one could say the same about various guns:

Glock - "Perfection."

1911 - "The world's greatest fighting handgun."

HK - "In a world of compromise, some men don't."

Does believing in marketing equal self-delusion? :mrgreen:


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## Scratchshooter40 (Jun 17, 2008)

*Handguns I don't like, Hmmm . . . .*

Well, keep Mike's basic tenets in mind and realize that every individual is different in ability, hand size and physical makeup, ability to concentrate and attention span. I don't like a Glock but that 's just for me. The grip just absolutely does not fit my hand. The weapon as a platform is excellent, I just am uncomfortable shooting one and I had a G22 for quite awhile. I sold it because it is the issue weapon of the S.O. and I have one of theirs. I carry a Beretta 96 because it fits me and performs flawlessly so far. I really don't like any gun pointed at me as I have been privy to that picture and it's not fun. Obviously didn't fare any worse as I am still here. I don't like guns in the hands of criminals or individuals who don't handle them safely or properly. I know I'm a little off topic but a .25ACP pressed against the temple will do just as thorough a job as a .45 ACP will. As you experience more handguns and rent and shoot those you do not own you will develop your own set of criteria. Don't buy obvious junk and don't waste your time with any gun that doesn't fit you ergonomically.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> ...Does believing in marketing equal self-delusion?...


Well, think about abdominal tattoos...
(See, I can do it too-but I'll probably hate myself in the morning.)

To answer your question, instead of fooling around:
Yes, of course it does. If you purchase something because you've bought-into its hype, it's self-delusion. If the hype merely led you to try a product out, then you're simply making use of available data on the way to making an informed choice.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Well, think about abdominal tattoos...
> (See, I can do it too-but I'll probably hate myself in the morning.)


You mean you wouldn't find THIS intriguing on yourself? :mrgreen:












> ...instead of fooling around


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Hmmm...
She could appendix-carry a full-size Government Model in full sight, and you'd swear it was only part of the tattoo design.
Now that's great tactical thinking!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Scratchshooter40 said:


> ...[A] .25ACP pressed against the temple will do just as thorough a job as a .45 ACP will...


Um, not according to some of the stories that have received fairly wide circulation. Of course, those stories my merely be apocryphal, but, "One never knows, do one?"


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## Scratchshooter40 (Jun 17, 2008)

Well, I can only relate information from homocides I've worked. Dead from a .22lr is just as dead from a .45ACP. Degree of damage is just not a factor. Go with what suits you and enjoy.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Sorry, I can't help myself. It is spelled "Homicide."


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

My original comment was inspired by a post by some guy complaining about a 7lb trigger pull. Here's some guns to try to learn about specific issues people might have problems with.

Charter Arms Bulldog (original): .44cal + 2.5" barrel + 16 oz weight = recoil
Walther PPK: 13+lb DA trigger & slide bite & no external slide stop
Glock G21 (pre-SF): Ginormous grip

A lot of bad quality stuff usually doesn't stick around for long or gets revised:

First gen S&W Sigma
Daewoo DH40

All guns are compromises. There are always some feature in every gun someone won't like and others a lot will. Its up to you to decide what you can live with.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Scratchshooter40 said:


> I know I'm a little off topic but a .25ACP pressed against the temple will do just as thorough a job as a .45 ACP will.


Have to agree with *Steve* here. My father was a cop. He responded to an attempted suicide with a .25. The bullet had entered at the temple, was deflected by the light bones there, and coursed around the head under the scalp. It stopped above the opposite ear. The guy was basically fine, though the scene was a little bloody. Dad and his partner sent the guy off to the nuthatch in an ambulance.

After he left the police force, dad carried a SIG P220 in .45. :mrgreen:


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## Scratchshooter40 (Jun 17, 2008)

*Bullet deviated by skull*

You're absolutely correct. There is an instance in your home state that made Drudge Report where a .380 was shot at a man from dead in front of him. Bullett went around to the rear of the skull and was removed from under the skin. Sorry about the sp. error on homicide. Of the 9 fatalities I worked, 7 utilized a .22lr. I never dismiss a caliber because of what I carry or am partial to. Dead is still dead. But enough, being new here I'll just hope that everyone has a great weekend. I'm on my way to the range.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Scratchshooter40 said:


> I'm on my way to the range.


Me too!


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Scratchshooter40 said:


> Sorry about the sp. error on homicide.


No need to apologize. I am a bit OCD with stuff like that. 



Scratchshooter40 said:


> I'm on my way to the range.


I wish I was. I am trying to get out of helping clean the house at the moment. :smt076


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Scratchshooter40 said:


> ...Of the 9 fatalities I worked, 7 utilized a .22lr...


While a .25 (or a .22LR) to the temple is probably not a sure killer, a .22 Short placed and angled carefully at the nape of the neck will do the job, every time.
So, Scratchshooter, to aid the discussion-and our education-somewhat, where were those seven, 22-caliber bullets placed? Were they "executions" done with careful placement on an immobilized victim, or were they "random" combat hits?
Also, since it's germane to arguments presented elsewhere, how many of the seven victims continued to fight for a period of time, and how many immediately stopped or dropped?


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## Scratchshooter40 (Jun 17, 2008)

*.22lr kills*

Well Steve, the most memorable was from a true Saturday night special so to speak. The reason it was the most memorable was that you rarely respond to a "shot in the head call" and find the victim still mobile. This may support the reasoning that it is not a 1 shot down immediately theory. The victim in question was on his front porch with an obvious, though small hole in his forehead from an RG ( if memory serves me correctly) handgun found in the neighbors kitchen trash can. Seems that he had made a call on the neighbor's wife without invitation or permission for that matter and the neighbor took offense. It didn't help the neighbor's case that both men involved had just made a drug sale and were also arguing over the division of money. Victim was mobile, but non responsive to us and died in about 10 minutes as near as we could tell after he collapsed. EMT's made the call.

#2 that my old notes describe was a 15 year old boy who was accidently shot with a .22 lr in the head just aft of the ear and the shot came from an older Winchester pump action .22 accounting for much superior velocity of the round and what appeared to be an instant kill.

#3 and #4 were mutual combatants. One armed with an H&R 9 shot .22 lr and he hit his opponent 4 times. The first victim bled out in the "club" and the opponent was found in the parking lot of the local hospital in the next two hours dead behind the wheel. The deceased at the "Club" had a small semi-auto of non descript make that I do not remember. Neither was an instant kill obviously.

#5 was the most unfortunate. It started as a response to an accidental shooting call and we found a 15 year old boy with an gunshot to the throat area and cleaning kit scattered about. Seemingly instantaneous death from the scene. After interviewing the kid's friends and family we found that it was a probable suicide, never confirmed, as he had told a friend that it wasn't worth it living as he was not in shape, popular, and could not get the attention of some girl in school. Other than that good kid, great grades, nice family.

#6 is mostly from memory. Local girl who was known to pedal herself for drugs or money found near Quitman, GA in a pot field with a shot to the back of her head in what appeared to be an execution style killing. Dead where shot, .22 lr. We never found from what.

#7 was a Police Officer and one of the greatest guys you'd ever want to meet. He was wearing a vest, had a child on the way and I miss him more that I can say. He and a fellow officer made a stop in an alley in a South Georgia college town and two perps exited the suspect vehicle and started shooting handguns at the officers. Bobby probably saved his partner's life by pushing him behind the car door and took a single .22 lr round under the arm in the side of the chest. He was sitting up on the operating table when we got to the ER and talking about how stupid he was. 10 minutes later he was dead as the bullet had bounced around inside his rib cge and caused a lot of damage. More small perforations than could be addressed once his BP started to fall dramatically. Again, not an immediate result, but he's gone none the less. That's my history on the Georgia-Florida line from 25 years ago. The remaining two homicides were with a 9mm and a 12 ga. shotgun. The 9mm did not put the victim down immediately due to shot placement, but did cause enough internal injury coupled with the toxicology report of drugs in the system to result in death. Don't miss that dealer at all. The 12 ga. took the mid section out and was quite immediate. #1 buck if memory serves. I personally have a 12.7 entry and exit in my body from friendly fire at 29 Palms incurred during a live fire field x that was caused by failure to secure a weapon on a Russian tank we inherited from the Israeli's as a result of their quick war earlier. I will not go into it but have discharged my weapon intentionally in the line of duty both as an investigator and as a Marine. I hope this helps in explanation of my observations due to weapons being deployed agressively on live targets. I appreciate the information and tone of this forum and am just an observer who still likes to shoot and believes in CCW for personal defense. If there is any and I mean any way to avoid using the weapon, I will take that course of action. But if I have to use it, I'd like to think I would be prepared and justified in that action. Again, all, have a great weekend. I get my daughter this weekend and we are going to the club tomorrow and shoot some as well. Sorry for the dissertation, kept things as abbreviated as I could. All the best.

Scratch


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Thank you, Scratchshooter!
I dunno 'bout everybody else, but I found your information quite valuable.
And, it didn't change my opinion of the .25 ACP cartridge and the guns that shoot it. (Death isn't the object. Stopping the fight is the object.)

I'm glad that you survived the 12.7mm hit. I hope it was very peripheral, and not especially disabling.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Scratch,

Great post. Thanks for your willingness to share and thanks for your service as a Marine and law enforcement officer.

Ptarmigan


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## Scratchshooter40 (Jun 17, 2008)

*12.7 hit*

In a UH1-B as FAC over a column of tanks headed to the barn after a long, hot, live fire drill. Someone had no secured the pintle mounted 12.7 on the Russian armor. Somehow it discharged and the sole round that struck anything came up through the bottom of the helo and through the seat pan into my posterior, right. Just clipped the hip joint very slightly. Enough so that I have some pretty severe arthritis in it now with a replacement scheduled for this winter, but as they say every day above ground is a blessing. God gives us tomorrow so that today, however bad or trying becomes the past and we have the opportunity to serve others and become a blessing to them. Okay, 'nuff said. Night all, gotta get my daughter in the morning.


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## dannyb (Jun 17, 2008)

I've heard this attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt, but I'm not sure:

Yesterday's history, tomorrow's a mystery, but today is a gift, and that's why they call it the present.



Scratchshooter40 said:


> In a UH1-B as FAC over a column of tanks headed to the barn after a long, hot, live fire drill. Someone had no secured the pintle mounted 12.7 on the Russian armor. Somehow it discharged and the sole round that struck anything came up through the bottom of the helo and through the seat pan into my posterior, right. Just clipped the hip joint very slightly. Enough so that I have some pretty severe arthritis in it now with a replacement scheduled for this winter, but as they say every day above ground is a blessing. God gives us tomorrow so that today, however bad or trying becomes the past and we have the opportunity to serve others and become a blessing to them. Okay, 'nuff said. Night all, gotta get my daughter in the morning.


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## brifol6111 (May 6, 2008)

From the weapons I have fired there are a couple that I do not like:

Beretta 96D DAO .40 S&W = For me because of the longer and heavy trigger pull I could never get used to this pistol and I always threw off my shot.

Taurus PT145 = I was never very accurate with this pistol, I found it uncomfortable and always shot low.


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## JONSCH (Jun 13, 2008)

I dont like american guns or revolvers. just realiable ones like HK, Walther,etc.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Scratchshooter40 said:


> .25ACP pressed against the temple will do just as thorough a job as a .45 ACP will. .


I have seen 1st hand a man shot at under 3 feet with a 25 ACP and it bounced off the mans head. I was in a bar in Cincinnati in my more....Well when I used to go to bars..lol. Now I would not want to try that again.

Just about everyone is gonna want and try and get small in a hurry when/if they hear gunfire no matter what it is...at least at first.:watching:


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

My father was a cop. He responded to an attempted suicide with a .25ACP. Contact distance shot to the side of the head. The bullet deflected off the skull and traveled under the scalp behind the head, coming to rest above the opposite ear. Dad reports the scene was bloody, but the ambulance came and hauled the guy to the hospital, where he recovered completely and quickly.

This does not inspire confidence in .25ACP for me. :mrgreen:


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

totally agree with NO on the 25acp
BUT
this months american rifelman reports a guy was broken into and he was laying on the sofa and the BG put a gun at his face and the GG pulled out a 25acp from the sofa - 3 bullets and killed him
BET IT WAS IN THE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
he got lucky


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

hideit said:


> BET IT WAS IN THE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'll place my bet on the neck area.


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## Idok (Oct 3, 2007)

me 2!


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## Idok (Oct 3, 2007)

oh, and not a fan of hi-point


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Idok said:


> oh, and not a fan of hi-point


Man..there's just nothing to like about those guns(hi-point). I hear from a few people that they work fine..I just never was around that one time they did :smt082


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

hideit said:


> BET IT WAS IN THE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Probably shot him in the eye and went straight into the brain. You are right though,,,lucky!


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