# Rifle or shotgun as HD?



## Guest

Ok, I feel like being a little devil and starting this arguement again because it always boils down to a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 vs an AR15 as HD firearm. I choose my good old Mossberg 500. 

What do you guys choose?


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## hberttmank

For close range, like inside a house, nothing beats a 12ga pump or auto loaded with 00 or 000 buck shot. Of course this is just my opinion.


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## viper31373

remington 1100, auto loader, with remington 00 buck. 

danny


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## Charlie

viper31373 said:


> remington 1100, auto loader, with remington 00 buck.
> 
> danny


+1


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## 2400

Remington 870 with #4 Buck


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## neophyte

*Absolute*

Shotgun only

Craig


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## FallGuy

I own a Mossberg 500 pistol grip with a fold able stock. I keep it loaded with 00 buck and then stagger it with A hollow point slug or sabot. 









I also have a Remington 870 that I keep bird shot in for the wifey.

There is nothing like a 12 gauge to get up close and personal with an intruder.


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## JimmySays

Winchester Defender 1300 12 GA. 3" Mag 000/00 Buck. But I live alone.
Kahr P40 w/Winchester Ranger 155 Gr. JHP also, since this is a handgun forum. :smt023


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## SuckLead

Benelli Super Nova 12 ga. with a mix of non-lethals (first round only... if you keep coming after that you deserve whatever you get) and bird shot. Little long in the barrel, but it gets the job done.

I will still own a Remington 870 one day. 18" barrel this time.


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## Mike Barham

Heh, an old poll from banned member rears its head!

I think either is fine. Shotguns with smaller buckshot have a little less wall penetration than some rifle rounds. But something like an M4gery or Mini-14 is easier to shoot well, especially for people who don't like heavy recoil. .223 with light JHPs has less wall penetration than some handgun rounds, for those concerned about that.

Since I sold my M4gery, I will likely buy an 18" barrel for the 870 when I get home. The old bird gun is perfectly adequate for defense when stoked with buckshot.


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## stormbringerr

a 12g shotgun for HD beats anything,it doesnt matter if the intruder is 60feet or 30 inches away.


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## Mike Barham

stormbringerr said:


> a 12g shotgun for HD beats anything,it doesnt matter if the intruder is 60feet or 30 inches away.


It's really shooter-dependent. Many people do better with a short rifle that kicks less.


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## JeffWard

870 12 Gg all the way. Sighted Slug Barrel. 00 Buck. I'd prefer #1 Buck, but I can't find it anywhere!


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## Alaskan_Viking

Mike Barham said:


> Heh, an old poll from banned member rears its head!


I was away for awhile, what was he banned for?

For home defense, I want one of these new KEL-TEC's!

Shown Above an FN FAL for comparison.








:smt067


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## Mike Barham

I don't care for bullpups. The LOP is always too long to shoot from a squared-up, modern rifle-fighting stance.


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## stormbringerr

Mike Barham said:


> It's really shooter-dependent. Many people do better with a short rifle that kicks less.


a 20 gauge doesn't kick that much,and you only have to point and shoot.cant get much simpler.

i noticed no one voted for rifle.


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## VegasEgo

Benelli M4, with EOtech Sight on top, loaded with 00 Slug 00 Slug 00 Slug Sabot sabot


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## Alaskan_Viking

Mike Barham said:


> I don't care for bullpups. The LOP is always too long to shoot from a squared-up, modern rifle-fighting stance.


_LOP_?:smt105


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## Mike Barham

Alaskan_Viking said:


> _LOP_?:smt105


Length of pull, e.g., the distance from buttplate to trigger.


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## Todd

stormbringerr said:


> i noticed no one voted for rifle.


I'll vote rifle. I don't have a shotgun. However, in a HD situation, I think it all depends on what time it happened. If someone comes busting down my door during the day, they they will have to deal with my pistol because that's what I have easy access to. I won't have time to run upstairs and get a long gun. However, if someone comes a knockin' at night and choses to proceed with their Darwin Award candidacy while the alarm is going off, then they will be looking at the business end of the AR, which due to the layout of my house, will work just fine in a HD situation.


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## Mike Barham

stormbringerr said:


> a 20 gauge doesn't kick that much,and you only have to point and shoot.cant get much simpler.


A 20 gauge kicks a hell of a lot harder than a .223.

You're simply wrong about pointing and shooting. At in-house distances, a shotgun needs to be aimed almost as carefully as a rifle, since the pattern doesn't open much at close range.



> i noticed no one voted for rifle.


Probably because shotguns are traditional in the HD role. But as rifles like .223s become more common among police, they will trickle into the HD market. .223 rifles are pretty rapidly displacing shotguns in many police roles.

Anyway, either will serve. It's the Indian, not the arrow. I didn't vote.


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## Agent 47

this is







what i prefer


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## Agent 47

lol a little big


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## Todd

Agent 47 said:


> lol a little big


Ya think? :mrgreen:


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## stormbringerr

thats only your opinion i think most of the time that you are simply wrong.go look at your simply wrong post about the RIA 1911s


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## Mike Barham

stormbringerr said:


> thats only your opinion i think most of the time that you are simply wrong.go look at your simply wrong post about the RIA 1911s


Since my opinions come from more than just a year's recent experience (http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=9595), I'll stick with them, thanks. Anyway, opinions on gun quality - like RIA, the quality of which is known in my industry to be uneven - are very different from _objective facts_ about shot patterns and recoil forces, both of which are easily measurable.

_Objective, non-opinion fact #1_: A 20 gauge has about 21 foot pounds of recoil energy. A .223 has about 3.2 foot pounds of recoil energy.

_Objective, non-opinion fact #2_: Industry standard for buckshot spread is roughly 1" per yard, and many guns and loads will pattern much more tightly than that. This means that at typical home defense distances, the pattern might be 3-5" wide. This is hardly a cone of fire that can simply be pointed down a hall. Rather, it must be aimed in order to hit the target.


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## stormbringerr

like i said i just got back into guns about a year ago,but i used them for a looong time before that.way longer than you, but thank you anyway,
mr, wise old owl.
(your industry?:smt104)

also maybe you would have to aim a 12g shotgun to hit someone in a house or down a hallway,but i wouldn't.i could point it at them and hit them and i bet just about every other member on this forum could too.


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## Mike Barham

stormbringerr said:


> (your industry?:smt104)


I work in the shooting industry when not mobilized with the Guard. I have the good fortune of handling all the major new pistols before they hit the market widely, talking to shooters across the country about their guns, conversing regularly with some of the best minds in the defensive shooting segment of the industry, and attending the big trade shows like SHOT where I see all the new gear and talk to the high-speed folks. My job also enables me to sometimes take a little time from work for training at places like Front Sight and, next July, Gunsite.



> also maybe you would have to aim a 12g shotgun to hit someone in a house or down a hallway,but i wouldn't.i could point it at them and hit them and i bet just about every other member on this forum could too.


I hope so for your family's sake. However, it is generally accepted that life-threatening stress causes a degradation in skill level of somewhere between 50% and 80%. So just because one can "point shoot" on a calm, manicured square range in broad daylight does not mean one can do it under deadly stress, from perhaps an awkward firing position, in potentially low light. And even if _you_ can, many people cannot, and they may be better off with a light rifle, which is much easier to use under stress (as we prove with regularity here in Afghanistan).


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## Snowman

:watching:


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## spacedoggy

This is the way I feel:

Shotguns


The biggest benefit of shotguns is their ability to shoot pellets (and just about anything else). Pellets (or "shot" as it is better known) allows a larger area to be hit with each trigger pull reducing the requirement for precision shooting.
Shotguns also have the ability to shoot bullet-type projectiles (known as "slugs"). This allows them to have the characteristics of a rifles, but also the option to use shot depending on the specific use and situation.
Shotgun analogy would be: would you rather get hit by hundreds of small rocks, 10 boulders, or one semi-truck?

Shotguns are also very customizable and very versatile. Most modern shotguns can be outfitted with different length barrels, different stocks, different fore ends, different sights, and an mass of other accessories to fit your every need.
Another benefit or problem of shooting shot from a shotgun, is the inherent lack of penetration. For home protection it is a welcome idea as the shot will likely become less than lethal once it goes through a couple layers of drywall.
Rifles


Rifles still require a good deal of precision, but the dexterity of the use of a pistol is not necessary, and stopping power is much improved.
To continue the analogy: would you rather be hit by a golf cart at 340MPH (5.56mm NATO), a pick-up truck at 260MPH (7.62mm NATO), or a bus at 300MPH (.50 BMG)?

As with any long gun, maneuverability it greatly reduced due to the overall length of the weapon. Some home defense situation may require you to place the stock below your shoulder which will reduce your accuracy, but also reduce the chance of someone being able to grab the rifle.
A rifle is not a common choice for home defense because while a shotgun has some of the problems inherent with any long gun, it has many benefits that the rifle does not have.
Rifles are also known (rightly so) for "over penetration". This is where the bullet hits an object and continues through and past it. It is easily argued that anything more powerful than a 7.62mm NATO (AKA .308 Winchester), is overkill. Lighter, less powerful rounds are less likely to over penetrate while still carrying much of the killing power.
5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington rounds (all the same dimensions, but different pressure specifications) have a bullet which is weighted heavily at the rear. This causes problems when a round is fired through an object as it tends to tumble after it exits and make the round much less deadly. But in a residential setting this may be desired.

Semi-automatic, carbine (shorter), magazine-fed rifles would be the optimal choice, as it allows many shots, and retain some maneuverability.
 Now if carbine was added that's what I would pick. I love my CX 4. It's light and short enough to clear a house. I used a shotgun in training clearing a building. The only problem I felt was it was to long. Another guy using a M16A1 no m4's back then had an instructor grab his weapon by the barrel. I don't know what the best one is but I can tell you the one best for you. That's the one you have trained with and mastered. Right now my CX 4 would be a bad choice for me because I have the wrong rounds in it. I'll stick with whatever I put on the night stand. I don't have to worry about kids and I don't have any houses next to mine.

Mike for someone who is fighting a war over there you sure are on the internet a lot. Do you guy have laptops with you all the time or a tent with a bunch of PC's? When someone yells incoming do you grab your PC or rifle??

Hey Agent 47 please when you post pics make size them at 600. It make reading the post a pain in BOZO's ass


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## mvslay

For home defense my trusty Mossberg 500 is good enough. In the highly unlikely event of a LA riot or post Katrina situation I rest soundly knowing I have 2 quality AR-15's and a selection of other center fire rifles at my disposal. Realistically though, a hand gun will be most likely the weapon at the ready if a sudden home invasion/burglary were to happen.

Who's quote is this?

"A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your gun."

Far as aiming and shooting shotguns vs an AR I'd have this to say, it is true that a shotgun is not a point and shoot weapon. However I believe the simplicity of a bead sight in a HD situation is a plus. The longest possible distance in my home is only about 40'. That is across two rooms down a hallway. I can't imagine missing at such a short range with any long gun. I can imagine what a disadvantage a peep sight or fumbling to turn on a red dot would be late at night.

The last thing that I really see as an advantage in the pump shotgun is the ability to work the action in the ready position. I personally will not store a long gun or a semi-auto pistol with a round chambered (I do carry a .45 locked and cocked). So picking up a 12 ga and racking the slide in the ready position is far quicker than operating a charging handle as in the AR series.

Far as stopping power/penetration. The shotgun wins hands down. But I'd have no problem with the .223 if that is what I had available.

There are two other things that I believe really seal the deal on the shotgun as the go to HD weapon.

For a little over 200 bucks you can get a decent shotgun just about any where. The ammo is a bit pricier, but realistically you just don't need a 1000 rounds for basic home defense. 15 or 20 rounds are plenty.

The other is the shotgun is far more accepted socially than the AR series of rifles. We here sometimes forget that there are middle of the road people who just won't ever see an AR as a practical firearm. I'd rather those become shotgun owners than remain defenseless sheep. Every time a non gun owner becomes a gun owner my 2A right gets a little more secure.

Mike Barnam did bring up one extremely valid Counter point. Recoil is a significant factor. If the recoil is to great for the shooter then that weapon should be reconsidered. Recoil is the only negative I can see to recommending a shotgun for HD.


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## Mike Barham

I am pretty much in agreement with Spacedoggy's post. I will note that civilian .223 users are not confined to ball ammo, however, and lightweight JHPs penetrate a lot less wallboard than ball. But you're right, smaller shot (#1 Buck and lesser) will only go through three interior walls instead of five. 



spacedoggy said:


> Mike for someone who is fighting a war over there you sure are on the internet a lot. Do you guy have laptops with you all the time or a tent with a bunch of PC's? When someone yells incoming do you grab your PC or rifle??


Heh, I pretty much do have a laptop all the time. The op tempo varies. Lots of days are just on the base doing logistical stuff. I was recently out for about ten or eleven days with no access, though. That's the way it goes. Besides, I type fast, sleep little, and drink a whole lot of coffee.

As far as incoming fire, quite honestly, the Taliban use indirect fire more as harassment than anything. They are technologically inept for the most part and can't hit a damn thing. If we get rocketed or mortared, I just put on my armor, grab my rifle, get accountability of anyone I am responsible for, and go to a bunker. My computer is as useful as my rifle when we take indirect fire, though! :mrgreen:



> "A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your gun."


That's a paraphrase of Clint Smith's famous quote. But of course a pistol suffices in the huge majority of fights involving armed citizens. Mr. Smith's background is as a Marine infantry officer.

I do agree about the social acceptability factor of the shotgun, though rifles like Mini-14s look pretty inoffensive with wood stocks.

Shotguns are cheap to buy, but fairly expensive to feed. It's a non-issue only if you don't plan to practice much. And the shotgun, which in its inexpensive pump guise is somewhat complex to operate and kicks hard, demands training to use skillfully - especially when compared to the light-kicking semiauto .223 rifle.

Good points are made on both side of the issue. Either weapon will do fine in the hands of a good shooter. I won't argue anyone's personal choice, but I do protest flat statements that one is vastly superior to the other, or "the only choice." Hell, I sold my M4gery, and when I get home it will be replaced by a boring, wood-stocked, unmodified, totally "untactical" 18" 870.


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## stormbringerr

Mike Barham said:


> I work in the shooting industry when not mobilized with the Guard. I have the good fortune of handling all the major new pistols before they hit the market widely, talking to shooters across the country about their guns, conversing regularly with some of the best minds in the defensive shooting segment of the industry, and attending the big trade shows like SHOT where I see all the new gear and talk to the high-speed folks. My job also enables me to sometimes take a little time from work for training at places like Front Sight and, next July, Gunsite.
> 
> I hope so for your family's sake. However, it is generally accepted that life-threatening stress causes a degradation in skill level of somewhere between 50% and 80%. So just because one can "point shoot" on a calm, manicured square range in broad daylight does not mean one can do it under deadly stress, from perhaps an awkward firing position, in potentially low light. And even if _you_ can, many people cannot, and they may be better off with a light rifle, which is much easier to use under stress (as we prove with regularity here in Afghanistan).


thank you,i think....stay safe mike and come home as soon as you can:smt083


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## spacedoggy

Mikes not coming home as long as they give him free high speed internet and I wonder how he is shipping those guns he was shopping for in his picture.
I know this is off topic and stormbringerr you asked me the other day how my son is doing and I'm sorry I didn't get back to you. We got 4 letters today and guess what. He love basic, everything they do he love, even PT. I cna't be happier and again stormbringerr thanks for asking. I remember you telling me about those day a while ago and thanks for your advise on that other matter, it cleared it right up for the wife and even helped me.

Again all sorry for going off topic time for me to go to bed.


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## stormbringerr

thank you, brother adviser .:smt023


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## Agent 47

mvslay said:


> For home defense my trusty Mossberg 500 is good enough. In the highly unlikely event of a LA riot or post Katrina situation I rest soundly knowing I have 2 quality AR-15's and a selection of other center fire rifles at my disposal. Realistically though, a hand gun will be most likely the weapon at the ready if a sudden home invasion/burglary were to happen.
> 
> Who's quote is this?
> 
> "A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your gun."
> 
> Far as aiming and shooting shotguns vs an AR I'd have this to say, it is true that a shotgun is not a point and shoot weapon. However I believe the simplicity of a bead sight in a HD situation is a plus. The longest possible distance in my home is only about 40'. That is across two rooms down a hallway. I can't imagine missing at such a short range with any long gun. I can imagine what a disadvantage a peep sight or fumbling to turn on a red dot would be late at night.
> 
> The last thing that I really see as an advantage in the pump shotgun is the ability to work the action in the ready position. I personally will not store a long gun or a semi-auto pistol with a round chambered (I do carry a .45 locked and cocked). So picking up a 12 ga and racking the slide in the ready position is far quicker than operating a charging handle as in the AR series.
> 
> Far as stopping power/penetration. The shotgun wins hands down. But I'd have no problem with the .223 if that is what I had available.
> 
> There are two other things that I believe really seal the deal on the shotgun as the go to HD weapon.
> 
> For a little over 200 bucks you can get a decent shotgun just about any where. The ammo is a bit pricier, but realistically you just don't need a 1000 rounds for basic home defense. 15 or 20 rounds are plenty.
> 
> The other is the shotgun is far more accepted socially than the AR series of rifles. We here sometimes forget that there are middle of the road people who just won't ever see an AR as a practical firearm. I'd rather those become shotgun owners than remain defenseless sheep. Every time a non gun owner becomes a gun owner my 2A right gets a little more secure.
> 
> Mike Barnam did bring up one extremely valid Counter point. Recoil is a significant factor. If the recoil is to great for the shooter then that weapon should be reconsidered. Recoil is the only negative I can see to recommending a shotgun for HD.


but what if like in Louisiana the police come in to your house take away your guns and destroy them in front of you.


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## Mike Barham

spacedoggy said:


> Mikes not coming home as long as they give him free high speed internet and I wonder how he is shipping those guns he was shopping for in his picture.


Heh heh, I pay for my internet out of my pocket, which is fine with me. I'd certainly not expect the taxpayers to subsidize it. There's an Indian company that runs internet at several of the bases here. It's not exactly high-speed, but works well enough most of the time.

We can ship home the "antique" guns if we want, just not war trophies used by the enemy, or things like AKs that would be illegal in the States. The customs paperwork is a bear, though. I have no real interest in the old rifles, so I won't bother with them. Just thought it made a neat picture.


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## JimmySays

Agent 47 said:


> but what if like in Louisiana the police come in to your house take away your guns and destroy them in front of you.


 In Texas it is law now that the local, city or state government cannot take law abiding citizens firearms in an emergency/disaster senario like Katrina. The feds will always do what they think they can get away with, but not at my house without a fight.
Be glad you live in a gun friendly state. :smt023


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## mvslay

Agent 47 said:


> but what if like in Louisiana the police come in to your house take away your guns and destroy them in front of you.


First off I'd move. Second when I do have to go to Louisiana I walk the straight and narrow as to avoid your LEO's. Even though my CCL is valid in Louisiana I don't want to have to interact with your LEO's since by law you have to declare your CCW and they are supposed to disarm you.

In the case of the illegal disarmament, I would not lie to LEO's, but I sure wouldn't advertise my armed status. If it ever went down here like it did in NOLA as soon as the LEO's and National Guard showed up I'd lock my weapons up in the safe and refuse to allow entry. If they arrest me in a time of natural disaster, I'm probably safer in custody than not. Plus as bad as NOLA was I don't believe they were arresting people with no resources to secure them.

After all is said and done I'd hope someone like the NRA or GOA would take up my cause. But if not I know some fairly decent attorneys (who are pro gun).

God forbid we suffer another disaster like that again. But if we do I believe my city and state have a far better response plan. In addition I have enough food and supplies in my disaster kit to make it easily 2 weeks, 3 if I stretch it. And probably 5-6 if I can stock up prior to as in a huricane.


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## stormbringerr

what state do you live in mvslay, Florida


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## Agent 47

JimmySays said:


> In Texas it is law now that the local, city or state government cannot take law abiding citizens firearms in an emergency/disaster senario like Katrina. The feds will always do what they think they can get away with, but not at my house without a fight.
> Be glad you live in a gun friendly state. :smt023


huh true :smt023


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## mvslay

stormbringerr said:


> what state do you live in mvslay, Florida


"Alabama"

-Forest Gump


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## rasgun

Rem. 870 Marine Magnum = 18 in. barrel w/ a 6+1 capacity


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## wardog99s

Shot gun or Rifle, Depends on the situation.
close range i would use ether a shotgun or a carbine rifle, for long range i would use a normal rifle scope or iron sights, and a pistol as a secendary weapon.


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## stormbringerr

(SP12BK-5PK00) is one of the best double-ought buckshot defense rounds. One of these rounds is virtually equal to a nine-round burst from a submachine gun, with every round hitting!
a 12g shotgun is the best short range defense weapon ever made.:smt1099


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## wardog99s

stormbringerr said:


> (SP12BK-5PK00) is one of the best double-ought buckshot defense rounds. One of these rounds is virtually equal to a nine-round burst from a submachine gun, with every round hitting!
> a 12g shotgun is the best short range defense weapon ever made.:smt1099


yep


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## hideit

you must be joking
seriously
the only rifle I would use is a ruger 10/22 with a 50 round clip
That is what I did for many years until I saved for a GOOD $$$ handgun


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## stormbringerr

a 50 round( clip )? no, i don't joke about annihilating someone with one 12g. round...:smt083


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## wardog99s

that small 10/22 an't gonna hold up agenst a 12g shotgun


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## Rustycompass

*I'll pick 2*

I'll select A & C .

a Glock 21 w/ a streamlight in a bedside safe.

a mossberg 500 security in the livingroom.

a side note on comment from a previous post, yep it's new trend in the fight againest crime....the L.E. agency I work for just replaced the patrolmans department issued shotguns with AR's.


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## ORYGUN

Shotgun with #4 buckshot is a good way to go.


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## tekhead1219

12 ga., 18" bbl, 00 buckshot, pump or semi-auto.:smt023


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## Ram Rod




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## tekhead1219

Ram Rod said:


>


Yeah...that's the ticket!:smt023


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## Slowfire

I fall in right with the majority . . . shotgun


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## Angus

I would hate to live next door to someone who decided to use a rifle over a shotgun for home defense haha! Just saying.. Unless you live on a farm out in Kansas somewhere with no chance of the bullet going completely through your walls and into a neighbors, I'd say a shotgun is the only reasonable choice of the two.. 12 ga.. Even those little sissy .223 rounds can go through some walls and a sheet of drywall or two..

Ok, the last part was a joke..

*runs*


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## NuckinFoob

Rem 870 tactical with light, loaded with 00 buck.


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## SaltyDog

Hey Ram Rod isn't that the tactical Remington 1100?

I was so glad to see Remington bring the 1100 back - what a sweet shotgun and in a tactical version no less.:smt023


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## TheManRSW

I keep a standard run of the mill 410 with buckshot, but the m&p 357 stays by the bed with gold speer hp.


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## Kyle1337

I voted shotgun only because I keep my .223's locked up all nice and neat and keep my .40 on a nightstand and a shotgun under the bed(mainly for my wife so were both gunning for a burglar, she's good enough I know she's got my back!:smt033) Anywho, its a Remington 870 Police Magnum with extended mag tube. Staggered .00 buck and slug everyother round. I don't think I'd ever opt for a rifle inside only because I have a close neighbor and don't want a round traveling through his house as well. If I was outside that's a different story.


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## Brent05Redfire

12ga. Remington auto loader all the way. and it doubles as a skeet shooter on the weekends.


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## The Goat

With what I have.. I would choose my AR-15 because my O/U is not practical for HD.


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## sheepdog

*Discussion...*

...is the right term...all three have merit...here's what I do and why:

my son-16...outshoots me most days...Ruger P90 and 10/22 with two 30-round mags of LRHP...his room
my room...Ruger P90 and Mossberg 20-ga. 6-shot...first four slugs...last two buck

...front closet...Marlin 30-30, Ruger Mini-14, Winch 12 ga pump with buckshot.

...kitchen....44 Special...

I've taught my sons to shoot the shotguns like they were rifles...aim ...to drop down and shoot at an upward angle if they can...I want the slug in the house to hit the perp, not the family member they may be holding...buckshot's for outside...as are the .223 and .30-30 rifles
...gotta consider who's in the next rooms...neighbors...every piece of lead fired in the house needs to be aimed...if they're holding my boy...a shotgun with buckshot's useless...

...pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun...different tools....same purpose...


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## Youngster

Shotgun. Period. 
I have a 12ga for HD, 5 00bk. I might rearrange the shells so its 00bk/slug/00bk/slug/00bk. I never keep one in the chamber, so I only have 5 rounds.


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## Tucker

Mossberg 500 of course..very reliable...it makes me feel....invincible. Yup! that's the word -- invincible -- hopefully I never have to use it.


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## Jiu-jitsu fighter

If you are worried about recoil I noticed someone had already mentioned a .410. I am kind of torn on which gauge I want. I was planning on getting a tactical type shotgun but I believe I have settled for a double barrel stage coach style shotgun to start with.

Then my next purchase will either be a p90, ps90, or an FN2000.

But I agree with alot of people. I couldnt use a hunting rifle type firearm for HD. Maybe if I didnt live somewhere with alot of houses. But for here I cant.


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## dayvsadler

Certainly a 12 pump or auto.
Find a place where you can shoot the shottie in the dark - preferably inside an old shed or barn.
Be sure it's safe!
After the first shell, you'll be blind and deaf for a few. Takes some getting used to. Hope you don't have to.


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## dondavis3

The Shotgun is the better of the two and might be better than a hand gun if it is very short - open bored - and keep on the floor by the bed (within easy reach).

Just mho

:smt1099


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## falchunt

*Just use SOMETHING*

Personally, I don't care what I use for SD if my family or property is in serious danger. I have shotguns, rifles, and my trusty pistol. It really depends on the situation for me, so I did not vote. If it were a split second situation where I had no time, it would be my pistol, because when I am awake, its on my hip. When I sleep, its within reach. If I had enough time I would prefer the shotgun, and whatever shells I could load into it in a few seconds...whether it be bird, 00 buck, sabots, I probably wouldn't care at the time.

I guess my point is as long as I have the ability to protect my loved ones, I don't care which type is in my hands.


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## cougartex

Remington 870. :smt023


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## recoilguy

Shotgun for HD. 

RCG


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## snowman46919

Shotgun, and my pistol is always by my bedside when I sleep. The question came up however of clearing a house and this is a horse of a completely different color. If I had to choose from my available arsenal I would probably go after grandpas m1 carbine due to its maneuverability in tight spaces and the marine corps thought it had good enough stopping power to issue it to him.


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## Springfield Armory

I do have an AR15,but seeing as it has a 7.5 inch barrel and were talking rifles,i go with my Mossy 590.It scares the crap out of people,and has a giant light on the end of it.Besides,what sounds worse.1 hole or 12?


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## BigDog1135

Remington 870 :smt1099


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## fusil

Bonjour,
you fella's in the US are lucky you can defend your home and loved ones. It a right you should fight to keep till the end of time.:smt1099
I'm in France and your not allowed to have a weapon for HD....*but*... I have a coach gun under the bed loaded with _'novelty ammo'_!!!!:smt083
I bought it at my local gun store, its a light load with 8 hard rubber balls in it. It aint a man stopper but 2 in the face with not be a fun thing.
For me its my 2 dogs, then 2 barrels for HD.


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## Steve M1911A1

Home defense is a job for anything that immediately falls to hand.

Closest is a loaded .45 ACP pistol. Not far off is a loaded 12ga shotgun. A rifle is not the best HD tool, but I can see its usefulness in a not-yet-in-the-house, multi-attacker scenario.

*Fusil*, where you are you should just throw apples at them, or drown them in _Calvados_.
Hmmm... That brings up a good _pensée Normand:_ _Sanglier, marinée en Calvados, rôti pomme-en-bouche! Miam!_
:drooling:


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## cooper623

*rifle vs shotgun*

Shotguns not only create the most damage at HD ranges (and a little farther) but they are a much more responsible choice in terms of over penetration. Rifle rounds can easily punch through walls in your house and enter neighbors houses where as a shotgun is pretty much garunteed to stop within your house. IMHO if you need to stop someone up close there really is no better option than a 12 ga shotgun.


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## SMann

Buckshot penetrates more layers of drywall than a .223. So does just about any pistol round. The 223 starts getting sideways and starts to fragment as soon as it hits the first layer of drywall. After two layers of a wall, the second wall will only show splatter of the 223 impacting it. Buckshot will penetrate the second wall. I'm not saying which is better for home defense, just saying there is alot of misinformation about what and how different projectiles penetrate. Tests confirming this information are easily found. This stuff has already been covered in this thread, I just thought it was worth repeating because I'm sure not everybody has read everything posted. Kind of a long one.


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## hud35500

To many people think that the shotgun is some kind of magical device that just makes the bad guys go away with the racking of the slide. Another common mistake is loading up with 00 buck or slugs for home defense. Those loads will definitely put the hurt on a bad guy, but they will also penetrate thru several layers of drywall and end up who knows where. Another misconception is to point in the general direction of the baddie and fire away. Most experts agree that #4 buck is better for home defense. It puts significant lead deep in the target with less risk of overpenetration. Bird shot is generally considered as a poor choice for HD. While it does make for an ugly wound, it doesn't penetrate enough to reach vital organs. Slugs are a proven man stopper, but they will sail thru the average interior/exterior wall. Then there's the guy who swears by the 3" magnum. These are great if you enjoy punishing your shoulder, but offer no real advantage for HD.

Like any weapon system, there are no guarantees. There are numerous variables you must consider when choosing a firearm or ammo for HD. Too many of us don't take the time to properly research before we "load up". There are many shotgun loads available that are designed for home defense, developed from actual shootings. They are more expensive, but I think our families are worth the cost. We need to put away the "Rambo" mentality and be realistic about HD.


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## dondavis3

@ fusel

Is a "coach" gun a short double barrel shotgun in France? 

That's what we call them over here.


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## hideit

just spent a couple of hours reviewing a 410 shotgun mosserg 500 for HD
most of the articles were discussing the 410 at 50 yds and 25 yds but excuse me but that is not HD ranges
so the muzzle energy ranges were searched and found better data
yea there were positive articles and i agree with these
410 at HD ranges is very adequate, mild recoil for wife, won't overpenetrate the walls - i just don't see a downside


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## legallyarmed

Who cares about wall penetration if you have a home invader to protect yourself from? I want the fire power of a 12 ga to stop a hyped up meth user. Im just sayin....


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

legallyarmed said:


> Who cares about wall penetration if you have a home invader to protect yourself from? I want the fire power of a 12 ga to stop a hyped up meth user. Im just sayin....


your child, loved one or neighbor on the otherside of the wall might care....

why bother worrying about a hyped up meth user if you are more of a danger than they are. you are obviously correct.


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## SMann

legallyarmed said:


> Who cares about wall penetration if you have a home invader to protect yourself from? I want the fire power of a 12 ga to stop a hyped up meth user. Im just sayin....


What Ted said. Get married and have kids and _you_ will care.


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## berettatoter

That was an easy one. The scatter gun wins hands down.


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## mrcanada

Weatherby PA459....... just picked it up a week ago...:buttkick:


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## jakeleinen1

Here the thing I dont understand

Now like ok, I agree a shotgun is the ultimate home defense weapon... BUT WHAT IF...

Idk maybe a baddy grabs someone you love as a human shield (and come on you catch a home invader and you have a gun they can definitely do something like that). Unless you have a slug or something you cant really do shit about it

Not to say your better off with a rifle even a pistol but at least in that scenario you aren't spraying shrapnel or shots everywhere


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## 45Sidekick

guess what i voted for??? duh shotguns, i use my sawed off mossy 835 pump as a door prop for such an occasion, if my 870 didnt have such a long barrel it would take the mossbergs place, i love those 870s though i gotta get a short one. you know what would make the best pump 12ga? if the 870s had a safety like the mossbergs, thats why i love my 835 very easy access


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## Steve M1911A1

jakeleinen1 said:


> Here the thing I dont understand
> 
> Now like ok, I agree a shotgun is the ultimate home defense weapon... BUT WHAT IF...
> 
> Idk maybe a baddy grabs someone you love as a human shield (and come on you catch a home invader and you have a gun they can definitely do something like that). Unless you have a slug or something you cant really do shit about it
> 
> Not to say your better off with a rifle even a pistol but at least in that scenario you aren't spraying shrapnel or shots everywhere


Um, do you shoot well enough to hit the very little bit of a hostage-taker that will show from behind the hostage?
Even using a precise pistol (or even a rifle) and really good technique, it's a low-percentage shot, more likely to injure your loved one than the BG.

In the situation you postulate, I suggest that the very best thing to do is to point out to the BG that he's in a standoff: If he hurts the hostage, he will die right then and there, and if he attempts to shoot you, the hostage will make him miss.
Then you offer to let him go if he lets the hostage go.
(And, maybe, then you kill him.)


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## 45Sidekick

steve's obviously done this before lol but no bs he is right your talking about an extremely stressful situation/enviroment and placing a shot like that is for the movies, i have to agree with steve 100% cuz that would be your best bet if your not wanting harm to your loved one, which you shouldnt. but anyways thats a tough call and could potentially injure someone you care about, and probably get you killed as well cuz your naturally going to lose focus if you accidentally shoot said hostage, and that gives enough time for the perp to take you out. be smart, work smart not hard. just my 2 cents


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## Packard

Probably a 20 gage is a better choice for most people. 

My sister, who used to live in the "country" in that it took about 20 minutes for the police to arrive after dialing 911, was having problems with "wood poachers".

This was in the 1970s and oil had just gotten expensive (relatively). Wood for fireplaces was in high demand. One day the wood poachers came to her yard and started up chain saws and started cutting up some trees. She went out there to tell them to leave and they threatened her with the chain saw. She went in the house and dialed 911, but the poachers knew they had time so they finished their cuts and drove off.

I bought my sister (who hated guns) a Sears 20 gage break action single shot. This is probably the safest gun for a novice to own. I gave her some lessons and she was good to go. The poachers came back once but when she came out this time (she hadn't even closed the action--but it was loaded), they quickly drove off.

The nice thing about a shot gun is that it points pretty naturally for most people (if the gun is sized right). There is little danger of shooting yourself in the arm or leg (toes are vulnerable though).

I would have preferred getting her a pump action but I was afraid that she would leave it unloaded all the time. I was also concerned that in an emergency that she might short stroke the action. The break action deals with these fears easily. (Plus it only cost $65.00.)

The sound of a pump action being cycled will often end a confrontation. A 12 gage blast certainly will. You have to practice with it to make sure that you don't short stroke the action during a stressful situation.


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## hideit

These responses have gotten WEIRD
For HD a 410 or 20 gauge is FINE
I choose 410 and mossberg ( when I get theoney together)
At the ranges of indoor shooting in a home 410 is fine =3" 000 buck

Now if m bane is correct I can hardly wait till Taurus imports the range hand
He reports that it be coming


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## JerryMac

I think one of the most disheartening sounds for an intruder to hear, is a round being chambered into a pump shotgun...... and that gives me the shivers, cause it is a sound i like to hear, when I am the one doing the chambering....a very comforting feeling, sure handguns are nice, and have one handy at all times and for HD , but the ole 870 is always on guard.

I will carry a gun to protect me and my family, I will call the police to do the paperwork. If I have time to dial 911, in a bad situation, two things I have to consider, police response time= 4 minutes, more like 30 where I live, time it takes to dial 911 = at least two double taps.


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## Ricky59

Shotgun. 12g..with buckshot

My HK Fabarm Tactical 12g is under my bed..
With my carry gun in the nightstand ..

I sleep just fine


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