# Pre Kahr Auto Ordinance 1911



## cpmack1 (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm also new to the forum and have a number of questions.
First... I have a Thompson / Auto Ordinance Ao 1911 A1 with serial number AOC 22512. (Pre Kahr I understand because of the AOC preceding the serial #) 

I've had it for several years now and barely used it as I'm more into revolvers. 

That said, I've been doing some research since I intended to trade it for another gun (a revolver - Taurus Judge 3" 45lc/410 chambered for 3" rounds)... but in doing the research I hear lots of bad things about the Pre Kahr 1911's and can't find anything on when it was made. So couldn't make the deal. The prices fluctuate from 550 to 350... and condition seems to have some impact but mostly the price seems to be based on the reputation of the gun itself.

I have also heard a number of people state that the Pre Kahr 1911 was the better gun if the serial number was below 50000. (????)
Its interesting to learn about, and from my limited use of the gun, I've found it to be rather reliable and accurate, haven't had any of the issues I've read about. 

There have apparently been a few modifications made to the gun I have so that might be it, but I can't attest to the modifications other than those that are readily visible like the rear sights, etc., as I bought it off a guy who says he won it in a raffle. I DID CHECK to ensure it wasn't stolen before I bought it...ITS NOT... and I'm trying regarding this gun, but what is available is very limited and does not give any real info on when it was actually made, etc. 

One dealer provided me with some info based on the serial number that it was made between 2001 and 2005, but I'm finding out that is not accurate.

So my questions: 
Are the pre Kahr 1911's really any good???
What would the reasonable value be if its in excellent-barely used condition (with some ? modifications)?
If not, what is the major problem with them?
If the AO 1911's from West Hurley NY is better than the Kahr 1911's, then why is that so?
BOTTOM LINE: What is the general consensus of the Pre Kahr 1911's?


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

I had an Auto Ordinance Model 1928 Thompson semi auto carbine that was made in West Hurley N.Y. I bought it in 1982 and sold it soon after. The build quality was rather crude, however it did function. I had also looked at one of their 1911's and the build quality of that was not much better when I compared it to the Colt 1911 which I had at the time and still have. The Auto Ordinance 1911 like the Thompson had a lot of tool marks and sharp edges. It was as if the gun was not quite finished and the dealer called it a "gunsmith special" I guess it would be worth the price if someone were to buy it and finish it where the factory left off. I can't imagine that you could get that much for it given it's reputation. I don't know too much about the quality of the AO 1911 after Kahr took over Auto Ordinance. I have a Kahr MK40 and the quality is outstanding. You should seriously reconsider buying a Taurus, although I have never owned one, there are way too many negative comments regarding that make, at least for me to want to take that chance. The manager at our local dealer sells them and never had anything good to say about them and that they are returned often. But the owner of the store insists on carrying a little bit of everything including High Point. Do your homework before buying the "Judge" I did and bought an S&W Governor instead. Sometimes you are just better off spending more for a good quality product, and at least if you ever did have to sell it you can pretty much get back your return on investment. Not to mention if God forbid your life depended on it.


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## cpmack1 (Feb 27, 2014)

I've done some more checking and had the gun inspected... seems there's been a ton of work done on mine... barrel has been worked on and is not the original barrel, the spring receiver pin has two ... yes two parts on the receiver end... on is fixed and one is removable... which I was told improves the spring function and strengthens the spring return, next the receiver has been polished, trigger has been honed and polished, and front and rear sights have been replaced with Wilson combat sights. The gunsmith opined a great deal of work has been done on this gun and that he also fired it... noted that it was an excellent weapon and that I probably wouldn't get what it was worth simply because of its reputation and that I should hang on to it as it would be difficult to find one in as good a condition as this one that has had all this work done. He said if he had done the work it would have run about 200-250... thus whomever had it done, either was a professional or had a professional do it, and brought it up to a much higher standard. That made me feel pretty good and he valued the gun at the 500-600 range in its current condition. Soooo I guess I'll just keep it and start looking for a 45ACP long gun to go along with it. You are right about the Taurus... good gun but the S&W have a much better rating and I've seen info on the Heritage Rough Rider 45lc/410 various, and its a 6 shot, single action 4" revolver that has gotten some great reviews and is priced around 350-400... so am looking into that one. 
So thanks for you input, its proven to be invaluable. If I do decide to go with a 45lc/410 pistol I'll most certainly consider the S&W and if the Heritage Arms weapon is all they say it is, I might even go that direction.
Sure glad I didn't make that trade, the gunsmith thinks I would have probably have gotten the worse part of that deal. 
He also didn't think I would have really cared for the Taurus. He told me to look to see how many were for sale by individuals and I would find a ton of them, all swearing they were great guns, but still getting rid of them after only having them for a few months and firing only a few rounds thru them. That... he said was a strong indicator that even with all its hype, most are finding them to be less than advertised and not really very useful outside simple home defense. They are dumping them while the reputation of the gun is still high. Time will tell.
Now I think I will concentrate on trading my 30 cal Ruger Blackhawk and 30 cal Carbine for something in a high cal hunting rifle.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

cpmack1:


> "So thanks for you input, its proven to be invaluable."


You're welcome. I'm glad I could help. Based on what you said about the work that was done on your Auto Ordinance 1911 it is a wise decision to hang on to it. It's probably just as good if not better than other quality 1911's on the market. Kind of like a muscle car clone such as a stock Camaro that someone had dumped a 396/375hp in along with upgrading the drivetrain. It is every bit identical to the muscle car that left the factory that way but since the numbers don't match is not quite as valuable. Many gunsmiths and competent hobbyist gunsmiths can do an excellent job of upgrading a handgun, and in many cases it is worth the effort regardless what the guns value is. However, I'm not talking about weapons that are made with inferior materials and or manufacturing techniques. I'd never get back the money and time that I spent restoring my antique cars, but could never afford to pay someone to do all that labor. I don't plan on selling them and if I didn't restore them myself I wouldn't have the cars. Some people do what I've done and end up selling the cars at a loss. It sounds like your AO 1911 has a similar story only on a gun, and fortunately for you, you are the beneficiary. I've never owned a Taurus based on all the negative opinions about them, a common complaint is that the factory will not sell replacement parts for their firearms nor are there after market replacement parts? The guns from what I understand have to be shipped back to the factory for any repairs and that can be a pain in the ass even though they have a warrantee? I personally know of one individual who bought one of their polymer frame .38 revolvers that never worked from the get go. Yes, a lot of people buy inferior products thinking that just because they have the look and feel of a better product they will swear that it is just as good. That is until they have to use it for any period of time. When you buy a gun especially for the first time you're going to have to practice with it a lot. More than likely this will wear out an inferior product to the point that if you ever had to use it you would be taking a big gamble and it could fail you when you need it most.


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## cpmack1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Well I've been doing my homework and I think I will pass on the Judges... Seems there are a ton of them up for sale used and new. My concern is not with the new ones, but the significant number of used ones up for sale. I mean every site that sells guns had USED judges... I'm thinking that with that many used ones on the market, far too many people fell for the hype and bought one, only to find out it wasn't anything like what they thought it would be. I've also found that Magnum Research makes a 45lc/410 BFR and it runs around 800... the ratings are really good, and they are really scarce. Heritage also made one, but its not made anymore, and it appears it was a keeper as I have not found a single one up for sale...and it was originally priced at around 389.00... go figure... it was a 6 shooter, single action, and apparently people like it as I can't find one out there. So if one of those comes on the market I may be looking at them as well. The Judge, well it would have to be on heck of a deal before I move in that direction. As for the 1911, took it to a dealer for value, and he said he would give me 500 with all the mods on it. He noted the only original parts were the slide and the frame, and both of those were in excellent condition. So guess the bad publicity I got when I thought to do the original deal for a judge, I actually came out the winner. The judge is not all its rep says it is, and the 1911 AO is MORE than it is said to be. Your feed back was and is appreciated.


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