# +P RELOADS.... Just in Case...



## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

I've got a few thousand 125 gr Jacketed Hollowpoints stocked up... and after watching the news this morning, and contemplating what might happen to the availability of ammo in the next few months and years, I wandered out to the garage, and loaded up a few "non-target-load" test batches.

NOTICE: LOADING AMMO OUTSIDE OF POSTED MANUFACTURER SPECS IS NOT RECCOMMENDED. THE FOLLOWING POST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY. DO NOT TRUST YOUR GUN, AND YOUR HANDS, TO MY LOADING SPECS...

I started with the Hodgdon's higher end load that I've shot a bunch of times with my M&P9c, and worked my way up. Hodgdon suggests 4.4gr of Titegroup under a 125gr bullet at a 1.09" OAL, to produce 1136fps. This load is well short of the 127gr Winchester Ranger +P I shoot as my defensive carry load.

I loaded up 20 each of the following:
4.4gr Titegroup, 1.10" OAL, ZERO 125gr JHP, WSP Primers
4.6gr Titegroup, 1.10" OAL, ZERO 125gr JHP, WSP Primers
4.8gr Titegroup, 1.10" OAL, ZERO 125gr JHP, WSP Primers

Firing a few of each, and checking primers each time, I tested all of the rounds. The primers showed NO flattening, and they show slight primer flow, even with only 4.0gr of Titegroup, one of my target loads. All three loads fed and ejected fine, and the recoil was very manageable.

Finally, I loaded five of my "Carry-Ammo" (Winchester 127gr Ranger +P, 1250fps Muzzle Velocity), and five 4.8gr reloads, alternating rounds, into a mag.

There was virtually NO perceptible difference between the +P Rangers, and the 4.8gr reloads. If anything, the Rangers were still a bit hotter. Both threw some pretty good fireballs out of the 3" M&P9c barrel, but nothing un-shootable. POI was identical. The group size (like typical for a 9mm) got tighter, the hotter they went.

The final mag with alternating Ranger +P, and reloads, went into the same 1.5" ragged hole at 7 yards.

Conclusion:
If push comes to shove with ammo availability, I'd feel fully confident shooting "+P" JHP reloads with this gun for defensive purposes. For legal issues, I'll still carry Factory loads... but the test was good to see.

Final recipe?
4.8gr of Titegroup
ZERO 125gr JHP
Mixed Brass
WSP
1.100" OAL

JeffWard


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

Sounds like a success to me. :smt023

The shortage of ammo is one reason (among others) I'm considering a snubby over a P3AT for a BUG. I feel as though maybe .38 ammo will be easier to find than .380 if the shortage continues. I'm not sure though. Still not sure about the size of a snubby either. :smt102


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

The shortages in ammo and the way it looks like things are going is one of the bigger reasons why I stick to mostly calibers that are widely used by the worlds military. I figure that will always be around somewhere. And stocking up on reloading supplies. But I usually have a lot of that stuff anyway. Nothing would bug me more than a house full of guns I couldn't shoot.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I have also been experimenting with some hot 9mm loads, and have found one I really, really like, that I'm going to crank out a bunch of. My CZ RAMI, and my CZ-75B both shoot closest to POA with 147 grain ammo, so that's what I used, in a WInchester JHP, over 5.0 grains of Power Pistol. I think the OAL was 1.130, but don't hold me to that, as I don't have my notes with me. I used new Starline +P brass and CCI 500 primers.

I could only test it at 25 yards, because there was a match going on at the pistol side of the range, but three out of four times, I was able to get 5 out of 5 onto a paper plate with the RAMI...not too shabby, freehand, with a 3" barrel. Cases and primers looked fine, and they all fed OK. The CZ's seem to like 'em hot.

I know all the arguments for carrying factory loads for SD, and that's what I do, but I am really tempted by this one. It is sweet.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Have you chrono'd any of those loads Jeff?

I typicaly use Vihtavuori powders. Vihtavuori's load charts list standard 124 Gr. 9MM loads up to 1243 FPS when tested in a 4" 10 in 1 twist barrel.

I haven't felt the need to load +P when this factory tested recipe is available.

Lighter 9MM loads I have chrono'd match up pretty well with VV's chart.

Most of my hot work has been with my .40 and 357 Mag.

One additional advantage with Vihtavuori powders is they are very low flame.

Loads a friend put together with 2400 generated a 2 foot flame visible in mid day. Tite group is not as bad as 2400 but did produce visible flame. Although I have not tested in the dark the Vihtavuori powders (N3XX series and N110) have not produced a visible flame. I prefer to not give away my position or blind myself should I need to use them in dim light.

I agree wholeheartedly in having some hot loads available and see no reason to pay $1.00 and above per round.


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## firewokey (Feb 18, 2008)

Why shouldn't you use reload ammo for self def.?


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

firewokey said:


> Why shouldn't you use reload ammo for self def.?


It has to do with the perception some jury's have had regarding "Killer bullets" put together to do maximum damage. Also forensics findings can be confused if non standard loads are used in a self defense scenario.

Not everybody subscribes to the idea. I figure the cost of a couple of boxes of Winchester Rangers is cheap insurance in that regard.

I use last years model though cause I am not convinced the $1.00 + per cartridge stuff will stop a BG any quicker and I am a titewad.

I do have a good supply of hot reloads in case the local bears get rambunctious though.

tumbleweed


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## rccola712 (Aug 26, 2008)

what exactly does a 'hot' load mean? is hot another word for +p? and also what exactly does that mean, along with +p+? thanks


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

rccola712 said:


> what exactly does a 'hot' load mean? is hot another word for +p? and also what exactly does that mean, along with +p+? thanks


+P or +P+ are both hotter loads yes.



> Why shouldn't you use reload ammo for self def.?


As to shooting reloads as defense ammo many think that using hand loaded rounds shows a predestination to cause harm being you hand loaded ammo for the specific propose of shooting someone.

While we could argue both sides of the issue till the cows come home Most people think it best to not use hand loads for self defense. Using manufactured ammo just keeps one less can of worms to open in the event of a self defense shooting situation.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

DevilsJohnson said:


> While we could argue both sides of the issue till the cows come home Most people think it best to not use hand loads for self defense.


I have debated this question extensively, and while I still do carry factory made ammo, I am pretty much unconvinced by the arguments being offered against carrying hand loads.

It's more of a consensus thing than anything else. The self-defense writers all say don't do it, and they are smarter than me, so I don't do it...yet. But, I consider the arguments weak, and the evidence scant, to support their assertions, and if ammo prices don't stabilize at a more reasonable level, I will very likely be using hand loads in the future.

I like to shoot up my carry ammo, when I've been loading and unloading it a lot, and carrying it around for a while, and replace it with 'fresher' ammo. But I find myself becoming less and less willing to pay the price for replacement SD ammo. Besides, it rubs me the wrong way to pay double for self-defense rated ammo, when I know it costs only pennies more to make than practice ammo.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I can't help myself here so........
If you buy "self defense" loads aren't you buying "special" "man killer" rounds. The argument doesn't hold water. I am using a standard near max load out of a published reloading manual for self defense and I don't worry about it. If you feel the need to buy +P ammo for self protection then maybe you might think about going up a caliber or so. I'm not saying this to be smart or cutting. I just think you should carry something you are sure in your own mind will do the job if you do yours. We should, (me included) practice with what we carry. If you follow that rule then you are putting your pistol threw a lot of stress not to mention your wallet with all that +p ammo.
Just my two cents.:watching:


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I have been of the opinion that hand loads are no different than buying some HP load that is designed to cause a maximum wound channel and penetrate well. The thing is those bottom feeders can persuade a jury and that's where the rub is. I would not want to tell someone else to carry reloads being I would have to deal with the idea that they got in trouble for having them in a SD situation. 

I myself have carried hand loaded ammo. And still do at times. I but ammo in situations where I find a good deal and you just can't have enough brass. I had made that point a while back and had several posts telling me that I had not thought things through quite right (hmm). Since then I have not said much about it since. Till now I guess.

Anyway, there is a possibility that it can get you into a bad place so anyone that thinks about doing might want to weigh the evidence before attempting it themselves. Me personally like the idea that I know exactly how the round will perform in my weapon(s). I have spent a pretty long time looking for rounds that work best in my different pistols. I try making practice ammo that will get the best groups in my weapons. Then I'm expected to go get a round that will not work the same way and carry it. It makes the practice really not as important other than I get to shoot and that is fun. But shooting factory ammo is nowhere near the same as the ones I make. Some are better than others but it can't be the same.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I went looking for when this come up the last time. It was a little over a year ago (12-08)
http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=16808&highlight=Carry+REloads

This might give more information


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