# Glock 19 or 26 G4......bad new shooter first gun? other guns in consideration...



## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

alrighty, so i have a list of firearms i'm going to check out before i narrow it down to a few, gonna look at some gun shops for all of these, check em out, handle em, see how i like them in that sense, then take the ones (maybe top 3) with the best "feel" to them and trying them out at ranges that offer them on rental. these are all 9mm, which is what i'd like to start out with.

so here's my list:

Glock 19 G4
Glock 26 G4
Taurus PT809 C
Smith & Wesson M&P
Ruger SR9 (maybe SR9c)
Springfield XD 9mm (maybe the XD(M)
Hi-Point 9mm (i may pass over this even though they have an excellent warranty from what i hear)
Sig Sauer SP2022
Taurus PT24/7 DS

some other possible choices (but less likely to be found at a local gun shop):
CZ 75b 9mm
CZ P07 DUTY
Ruger LC9 (possible summer or workout CCW)


honestly i may not even find all of these, but at least i have a good list going of the ones that i've either handled already and want to compare, and those that LOOK good, but i've not handled them yet. 

my main question is.... are either of those Glocks good choices to start out with and eventually use for a CCW? i've seen where people said they carried either one, but what about for a NEW shooter, such as myself???


the only thing i find sketchy about Glocks is that there's no real external safeties on them really.....which to me is both good and bad...
good because it would teach me to respect firearms much more and be more careful when handling them, and not try anything stupid with it.
bad because i don't want it going off just because it gets caught on a piece of clothing or something, that would NOT be good. not really into shooting my own foot.


anyone ever have problems with that type of thing? i know this is all newbie stuff, but i'd really like to know whether i'm headed in the right direction. i know that Glocks are reliable, accurate shooters...just want to make sure i'm making a good decision for a first gun, i don't really want to spend $500-550 and regret it.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

For what it's worth...

The only safety device that really works is the one inside your head, between your ears.

Glocks, like all guns, are only as safe as the users thereof.
Glocks have sufficient built-in safety devices, as long as the one in your head (between your ears) remains fully functional.

Learn the gun-safety rules, and follow them.


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

With the Glocks or any pistol get a quality holster that covers the trigger and holds the pistol securely and you'll be okay. Then like Steve said train to be proficient. You've got a good list of pistols to try. If you have smaller hands the CZs may be best to concentrate on. Have fun.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> For what it's worth...
> 
> The only safety device that really works is the one inside your head, between your ears.
> 
> ...


 in 
i was talking to a buddy of mine and he made the same point, and it's something i've been considering all along. i mean, i'm usually pretty cautious about guns in general. i've learned a lot of safety rules since i've been around people that own guns and in the shops. i don't even plan on FIRING whatever pistol i purchase until i have the safety procedures down. just to be sure i know.



rgrundy said:


> With the Glocks or any pistol get a quality holster that covers the trigger and holds the pistol securely and you'll be okay. Then like Steve said train to be proficient. You've got a good list of pistols to try. If you have smaller hands the CZs may be best to concentrate on. Have fun.


yeah i noticed there are some holsters that cover the trigger. just gives me piece of mind knowing that if the trigger is covered up, even if i make a clumsy move if i'm in the woods or something, it shouldn't go off.

i've been checking out holsters, and some of them i saw, just look like they wouldn't be very fast if i needed to use it in a life-or-death situation. like the ones that go down inside your pants? the ones on the waistline look like they would be okay, but some of those, just don't look practical.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Why is it the exact same, 'safety device' that's between some Glockophile's ears is so emphatically trusted to run a Glock pistol, safely and well, while that exact same, 'safety device' can't save the same Glockophile from an occasional auto accident or traffic citation? (Must be magic, huh!) 

Me? I carry a Glock pistol everyday. I've, also, got over 50 years' experience with guns that have taught me, when it comes to handling firearms, there is no such thing as 100% user safety; and it, sure as Hell, ain't got nothing to do with what's between somebody's ears. That malarkey sounds great on the internet; but, trust me, real life is an entirely different story.  

This being said: You're all over the place with your pistol choices, Mr. Rabbit. I'll only offer this: If you do go the Glock route, my personal suggestion would be for you to choose a third generation pistol. It should be a STANDARD SIZE frame and 9 x 19mm chambering. 

Yes, I understand you want to carry your new pistol someday; however, you're going to need to learn how to shoot it, first, BEFORE you start carrying. The mostly compact pistols you're presently considering are just going to make it that much tougher for you to avoid falling into common pistol shooting errors and learn how to use a handgun skillfully and well. 

In fact, if I were starting out pistol shooting all over again, today, one of the very first things I'd do is join an IDPA club. I don't know you; I've never seen you shoot; but many IDPA pistoleros do so much better using pistols with full-size frames. You know, like a G-17, Springfield XD(m) 4.5, or CZ 75-B.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Glock Doctor said:


> ...I've, also, got over 50 years' experience with guns that have taught me, when it comes to handling firearms, there is no such thing as *100% user safety*; and it, sure as Hell, *ain't got nothing to do with what's between somebody's ears*. That malarkey sounds great on the internet; but, trust me, real life is an entirely different story...[emphasis added]


Pretty cute: You set up a "straw man," and then you knock him down. Nobody, least of all me, said anything about "100% user safety."
So tell me, oh Obiwan, if it "ain't got nothing to do with what's between somebody's ears," upon what does real gun safety rely? Mechanisms? Key locks?

I strongly suggest to you that describing someone else's opinions or advice as "malarkey" does nothing for your credibility, and even less for reasoned discourse and the exchange of ideas.

Oh, and, by the way, I have more than 65 years of shooting experience. Does that automatically make me smarter than you, or give my advice and opinions greater weight than yours?


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Please, no rock throwing.................Personally, I can't stand Glock's........they look like a block of wood, uninteresting, downright ugly. I agree with Glockdoctor, you are all over the place in your pistol choices. I also agree, that you should shoot a bunch of different handguns, before you make a choice. Many people buy a handgun, and shortly after, don't really like it as much as they thought they did...looks can be deceiving......handguns are like a fine wine...you have to try a bunch of them, before you pick the one that you like best. For shooting, I prefer my Beretta 96.( I noticed Beretta wasn't on yor list) It's a full frame gun, perfect weight for me, reliable, love the way it fits my hand, love the way it shoots. For CCW qualification, I used my Beretta 84fs. Smaller frame, nice trigger, smaller caliber, super accurate. For carry, I use a S&W Bodyguard. Fits in my front pocket in a Desantis holster, very comfortable. I traded a Walther P99 for the Bodyguard. The Walther was a perfect example of a gun that I thought I would like, but I didn't shoot it, before I purchased it. Nothing wrong with the gun, just wasn't comfortable to me. My CCW instructor is a Glock lover, along with Springfield, and many of the other plastic guns. He feels that they are the safest, most reliable handguns. I beg to differ, but that's another arguement. At the CCW class, I saw Glocks, Springfields, Kimbers, Sigs, Colts, Rugers, Smiths, Berettas...I saw semi autos, I saw revolvers...point being, you have to find the handgun that is right for you, and the only way to do it, is to shoot them.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Pretty cute: You set up a "straw man," and then you knock him down. Nobody, least of all me, said anything about "100% user safety." So tell me, oh Obiwan, if it "ain't got nothing to do with what's between somebody's ears," upon what does real gun safety rely? Mechanisms? Key locks? I strongly suggest to you that describing someone else's opinions or advice as "malarkey" does nothing for your credibility, and even less for reasoned discourse and the exchange of ideas.
> 
> Oh, and, by the way, I have more than 65 years of shooting experience. Does that automatically make me smarter than you, or give my advice and opinions greater weight than yours?


I love a good impassioned response! :anim_lol:

Me thinks you are your own, 'strawman'. Please re:read your original remark. It clearly implies the existence of 100% reliability. (If not, then, you're setting up a lot of Glock pistol users for failure - Right!)

Neither do you need me to show you what firearm safety devices do or do not work. All you've got to do is look at already existing physical examples of well used firearms. For instance, are you able to provide even one example of an army infantry firearm that does not employ a directly-operated (active) user safety? (There aren't any, are there. See what I mean!)

My use of the term, 'malarkey' is strictly generic; it was not meant to apply to you personally. At the same time I'm sure you can appreciate that I don't care for being called, 'Obiwan' by you - That's a personal attack and is way out-of-line.

Are you smarter than me? I really don't know? You might be; but it'll take more than your latest reply to prove it. Let's not crap up the board; so, enough, now, OK. :yawinkle:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Well Doc, since you already know it all, you can discuss the issue with yourself.
Bye.


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> For what it's worth...
> 
> The only safety device that really works is the one inside your head, between your ears.
> 
> ...


Well said Steve...


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

As for getting into a competition like IDPA, I'd really learn to shoot well first. You don't need to add the confusion of a competition that resembles an armed track meet right now. Learning how to properly manage the pistol safely should be your first priority. We have people show up at our weekly steel shoot, take the safety class, then we find out that they barely know how to shoot the weapon. At the worst it becomes dangerous, but even if they are safe it causes many just to give up after a few shoots and never try again. Our goal is to add new shooters to our numbers not discourage them.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Really? Somebody needs to know more about how IDPA clubs and competitions actually work. 

Jumping into pistol competition isn't the point - It's the regular weekly practice sessions and introductory safety seminars that most pistol clubs conduct that go a long way towards bringing new pistol shooters along. In fact it's often puzzled me that more novice pistol shooters don't take advantage of these practice sessions. 

Quite frankly I can't imagine a better way to become familiar with or gain confidence at pistol shooting. This is true for both of the PPC and IDPA clubs which I used to regularly attend. I've seen many a novice pistol shooter progress much more quickly than might otherwise have been the case.


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

Glock Doctor said:


> Really? Somebody needs to know more about how IDPA clubs and competitions actually work.
> 
> Jumping into pistol competition isn't the point - It's the regular weekly practice sessions and introductory safety seminars that most pistol clubs conduct that go a long way towards bringing new pistol shooters along. In fact it's often puzzled me that more novice pistol shooters don't take advantage of these practice sessions.
> 
> Quite frankly I can't imagine a better way to become familiar with or gain confidence at pistol shooting. This is true for both of the PPC and IDPA clubs which I used to regularly attend. I've seen many a novice pistol shooter progress much more quickly than might otherwise have been the case.


Does the orderly know that you are on the computer?


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

rgrundy said:


> Does the orderly know that you are on the computer?


I don't know exactly what your problem is; but, remarks like that should always be delivered face-to-face. To do less only serves to mark you as some sort of cyberspace coward.

(Sorry, but it's true!) :smt116


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

:watching:


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

To Glock Doctor: Steve said that Glocks, LIKE ALL GUNS, not Glocks alone, need your brain safety. So, thanks for ranting up some dumb stuff!

To ZachRabbit: The LC9 is quite easy to find in ND, I'm not sure about your area. I now have this pistol because my wife didn't like it. I love it. It is a nice little pistol and shoots straight. It does have a rather long and heavy trigger pull, which is it's negative, but after a couple hundred rounds, the trigger is still getting better every time I shoot and clean it.

The Ruger SR9c is also a gun I have used and think this is an excellent choice for you. It is fairly small and you get two magazines; a 10rd and a 17rd, so it can be small if you want to carry and big if you want to shoot. With this pistol you kind of get the Glock 19 & the Glock 26... in my opinion the Ruger feels better

I like that you aren't committed to one company and that you are willing to play the field. I don't agree with everyone that your selections are all over the place. I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE. A plastic framed 9mm seems to be what you want. 

The M&P feels like a solid gun, I have nothing to offer on the other pistols. If you don't feel comfortable with a gun that doesn't have a manual safety, don't get it. I'm pretty positive you would do just fine with it though.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

ponzer04 said:


> To ZachRabbit: The LC9 is quite easy to find in ND, I'm not sure about your area. I now have this pistol because my wife didn't like it. I love it. It is a nice little pistol and shoots straight. It does have a rather long and heavy trigger pull, which is it's negative, but after a couple hundred rounds, the trigger is still getting better every time I shoot and clean it.
> 
> The Ruger SR9c is also a gun I have used and think this is an excellent choice for you. It is fairly small and you get two magazines; a 10rd and a 17rd, so it can be small if you want to carry and big if you want to shoot. With this pistol you kind of get the Glock 19 & the Glock 26... in my opinion the Ruger feels better
> 
> ...


well, i went and shot at a range today!  i'm pretty pleased with how i did there, i didn't think i would do as good as i did. i'll be posting pictures of my targets here in a minute.

i DO like the SR9c. i shot one with the extended mag though. 
I also shot a Taurus PT709, and didn't like how i did with it. i feel that the shorter grip wasn't giving my hand the support it needed to have a good hold on the gun. it was a sub-compact gun.

i definitely didn't do bad with the M&P, as you will see. for never shooting a target with a gun ever, and honestly only ever firing like a couple rounds out of a little revolver, i think i did pretty freaking good, i don't know, you all will have to see it.

these are the guns i shot, out of about 6? 7? that i looked at and handled.
Glock 19
Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm
Taurus PT709 (compact? sub-compact?....i wanted to shoot a 809 but they didn't have one for rent)
Ruger SR9c (extended mag)

but i definitely liked these three:
Glock 19
Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm (i asked for this one not thinking i would even like it, but just decided to try it for the heck of it....ended up being a great choice)
Ruger SR9c

i shot a total of 100 rounds through these guns, total, i think it was some PMI Bronze 115gr. it was something the guy at the gun shop pulled off the shelf for me.
i mostly shot the Glock, and you'll see why i kept going back to it....


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

another positive thing to the Ruger is that with the shorter magazine you can put the pinky extension on so that your whole hand has room on the pistol. 

Have fun making your final choice


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

ponzer04 said:


> another positive thing to the Ruger is that with the shorter magazine you can put the pinky extension on so that your whole hand has room on the pistol.
> 
> Have fun making your final choice


i definitely like that option, they had one in the display case like that. the one they had on rental had the extended mag instead. haha.
i do believe that even if i don't make the Ruger my choice, i'll probably buy it anyway because i KNOW i'll eventually either carry it or simply shoot it all the time. it seemed like a decent gun and i can shoot decent with it now as it is. so i don't believe it will be a bad choice just to buy it so i have it, either.

targets posted in 3, 2, 1......


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Glock 19 Gen3, 10 rounds of PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT, first time ever shooting ANY gun at a range/target:
(i think the middle, far right round in the NINE ring is the one that the guy from the gun store shot, to give me a couple pointers before starting. he only shot one round though, that bullseye was all ME  )









Glock 19 Gen3, 10 rounds (maybe 9 rounds? can't really find the 10th one, maybe i hit the same hole one time or two) of PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT, 2nd try. KILL 

















Glock 19 Gen3, 10 rounds, 40FT (not so hot at 40FT.....but nevertheless they're all inside the rings  )









Next, i believe i moved on to the Taurus PT709..... i didn't really like how i shot with this gun, i don't know what it was about it, but i never really got a great grouping at all.... i didn't shoot fast, i kinda took my time on it....but here it is:


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

Nice pictures... :anim_lol:


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

sorry for my wife's laughing


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

ponzer04 said:


> sorry for my wife's laughing


it's okay, fixed em. lol.
sorry i'm posting so slow but my computer sucks at uploading pictures to Photobucket.


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

ZachRabbit said:


> it's okay, fixed em. lol.
> sorry i'm posting so slow but my computer sucks at uploading pictures to Photobucket.


I'm glad you figured out that I was laughing at the photos not coming up, and not the shooting itself. Good job.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Taurus PT709 (i think it was compact), 10 rounds PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT....1st round of shooting.









Taurus PT709 (i think it was compact), 10 rounds PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT....suckin it up. haha. the two rounds stacked in the mid to high area of the 7 ring were me using my right eye instead of my left, just to try it out, and see if i happened to do any better....no dice, haha. i went back to my left eye and shot way better....if you can call it good, i just didn't particularly like how this gun shot. don't know if it was because the adrenaline and excitement was starting to kick in, or whether i just really wasn't feeling the gun in my subconscious....either way pretty sucky spread. haha.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Next we have the Ruger SR9c....i didn't know if i would enjoy shooting this gun or not, but i actually kind of liked it. kind of light compared to the other guns i tried, in my opinion, not as light as the Taurus IIRC, but either way, my shots weren't too bad.

Ruger SR9c, PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT....do believe this is my first attempt:

















Ruger SR9c, PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT....second attempt:


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Holly said:


> I'm glad you figured out that I was laughing at the photos not coming up, and not the shooting itself. Good job.


haha, yeah i figured you saw the links instead of pictures the first time. 
either way i could understand if you were laughin at me cause i'm a newbie  hahaha.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

next was the Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm....honestly i wasn't even going to shoot this gun, because i didn't know if i would like it or not.... but i asked for it anyway, for the heck of it... and i'm glad i shot it, because i did pretty freakin well with it, for my first round of shooting with it (there wasn't a second round though).

Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm, PMI Bronze 115gr (10 rounds i believe), 25FT:


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

and finally, i finished up with 12-13 more rounds on the Glock 19. i probably should have tried another gun, but i liked how it shot so i decided to get some more trigger time with it. i forget which gun they suggested i try before that. i may go back and try the gun they suggested, i don't know.

Glock 19mm Gen3, PMI Bronze 115gr, 25FT :smt071


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm not sure what happened here, maybe i wasn't paying attention to what i was doing or something....We'll just say i was goin' for the jugular :anim_lol:









And some lady let me shoot a Smith & Wesson .22 while she watched her husband sight his .22 scope in. haha. just handed me a handful of bullets and a target lol. so i gladly loaded up and plinked around haha:


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

ponzer04 said:


> To Glock Doctor: Steve said that Glocks, LIKE ALL GUNS, not Glocks alone, need your brain safety. So, thanks for ranting up some dumb stuff! .......


Hey, ponzer, be nice! You're not really following the point to all this. Perhaps if you were to think more and emote less more board members (and me, too) might be spared your dull witticisms. Here, I'll try to explain things a little better for you:

One person says that, 'Your safety is between your ears'; and another person replies that, 'Your brain can't be relied upon to keep you out of trouble with a gun ALL of the time' - Which is, of course, true! Whether you look at the problem of gun safety from either a philosophical or a pragmatic viewpoint certain things should stand out.

Overconfidence in the powers of the mind is one of the leading causes of gun accidents. I see it all of the time - All of the time! Take it from an old range safety officer:

IT'S NOT YOUR MIND THAT'S GOING TO KEEP YOU SAFE AROUND ANY, 'SUDDEN DEATH DEVICE' LIKE A FIREARM; INSTEAD, YOUR PERSONAL SAFETY - AND THAT OF OTHERS - DEPENDS UPON YOUR ACQUIRED HABITS, HOW DEEPLY INGRAINED THOSE HABITS ARE INTO YOUR OTHER CUSTOMARY BEHAVIORS, AND (FINALLY) A LOT OF GOOD OLD FASHIONED LUCK.

Gun safety is not, or shouldn't be a, 'mental process'. Really effective gun safety should be largely habitual, and with little or no conscious thought actually taking place. Hey, I watch people goof with guns just about every week of my life; well, certainly on those weeks when I'm on or behind a firing line. Our local range is, what shall I say, 'over-managed' for safety. There are more range safety officers than actually needed; these RO's are frequently accused of being too attentive, even too intrusive; and if I've heard the complaint that all this extra watchfulness, 'spoils the fun' once, I've heard it a dozen times.

So what do some of these overconfident shooters - the ones who honestly believe that their, 'safety is between their ears' do? They continue to periodically shoot themselves and for the most curious (to my mind, incomprehensible) of reasons. If these guys don't shoot themselves or someone else while they're on the line then they'll do it while they're packing up behind the line and while putting their guns away!

I've seen people shot. Hell, I've been shot - Just never permanently! I've had acquaintances shot, too. What were the causes? I've thought about this subject a lot; and, I got 'a tell you, the attitude that, 'Your safety is between your ears' is - in my considered opinion - one of the leading causes behind firearm accidents. Overconfidence in the powers of the mind is every bit as dangerous as overconfidence in one's own physical abilities.

The way I've come to see things there are several leading causes to gun accidents: overconfidence, arrogant impatience, and careless impulses. (I'm not going to exchange, 'war stories' with you; however, I've seen all of these all too human characteristics in action on far too many different occasions.) Do you have any idea what I'm talking about, Lad? You know, kind 'a like the petulant reaction you've already taken to my initial remarks.

Were you a less impulsive, less overconfident, sort of person, you would have read more, reflected more, and emoted less; but I can tell that's not your style; and, know what, I am absolutely positive that this (intellectual?) arrogance on your part also places you at risk of being more likely to have an accident with a firearm. (You should listen to an older man!)

Yes, I do take exception to the oft repeated internet wisecrack, 'Your safety is between your ears.' Why? Because I've got too many years of public firing line experience to believe it - That's why! In my experience it's exactly this sort of, 'excessive ego' that will get a person with a gun into more sudden trouble than he ever might have previously imagined. You've accused me of, 'ranting up some dumb stuff'. Well, Laddie, all I can say is that, obviously, you've still got a lot more to see and a lot more to learn about, both, people and guns.

I drill into my own students' heads (and I do mean, literally, 'drill') the ideas that, before anything else, it's your ingrained personal safety habits and habitual gun handling skills that really keep you safe while you're using a firearm. The moment a shooter begins to feel that, 'his safety is between his ears' he's in trouble; and so are all others around him! It's not enough to, 'know'. Gun safety habits need to be thoroughly inculcated into a shooter's psyche up to the point where safe gun handling behaviors and reactions are actually ingrained habitual responses.

You, probably, don't see - or haven't seen - the kinds of egregious firearms handling behaviors I find all too common and that I'm talking about, here. Too bad! While you think I'm, 'ranting up some dumb stuff' what I've really been doing is offering you the advice of an older man who never wants to see or hear about another incredibly dumb (read, 'egotistical') firearms accident taking place again. (But we, both, know that's never going to happen. Now, don't we!)

So, how about you, 'getting off your high horse' and keeping a civil tongue in your head. I didn't address you that way; and you shouldn't have addressed me like that, either. Think more, and emote less. It's NOT about personality; it's not about personal opinions or attitude. Instead it's all about people staying safe while there are loaded guns in their hands. I'll tell you one more time: Overconfidence in the powers of the mind is, in my considered opinion, more deadly than bullets. Your safety is NOT, 'between your ears'. (Got it, Laddie?)


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Your primary safety is being smart. But as everyone knows there are plenty of old, smart guys who forget to zip up their fly...so there is a down-side to experience.

I consider my Glock to be as safe as my revolver. It uses a lighter trigger but offsets that with the trigger safety. So I call them even.

Glocks and revolvers (and some other autos) enjoy the advantage of not having any drill except pulling the trigger. In a high stress situation I consider that an advantage.

I think the bigger problem is the guy who shoots a 1911 and a DAO. This will result in a "divided reflex". It will slow down the process of releasing the safety on the 1911, and it will put at risk of a accidental discharge on the 1911 due to being used to the DAO trigger pull. In my opinion you should carry one or the other, but never carry both (at the same time or at different times). Even with adequate training the divided reflex will (according to what I've read) cost you 1/10th of a second in reaction time. Not much time when you are boiling an egg, but a lifetime if you are drawing your weapon.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Packard said:


> Your primary safety is being smart. But as everyone knows there are plenty of old, smart guys who forget to zip up their fly...so there is a down-side to experience.
> 
> I consider my Glock to be as safe as my revolver. It uses a lighter trigger but offsets that with the trigger safety. So I call them even.
> 
> ...


i'll agree with a couple things you just said there (can't agree nor disagree with the Glock-revolver thing cause i don't own nor have i ever shot a revolver)

i definitely think Glock is an EXCELLENT carry gun. like you said, all you gotta do is present and pull the trigger. boom. if you're a good enough shot, your problem is solved just as quick as it started.

i've not shot a 1911. although i'd like to have one. i don't really know what you're trying to explain here, but i will definitely say that i agree with what you're saying.......if i'm going to carry and actually use my firearm i want it to be as quick as i can whip it out if they're going to shoot me. and in situations like that, seconds feel like hours.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Glock Doctor said:


> I drill into my own students' heads (and I do mean, literally, 'drill') the ideas that, before anything else, it's your ingrained personal safety habits and habitual gun handling skills that really keep you safe while you're using a firearm. The moment a shooter begins to feel that, 'his safety is between his ears' he's in trouble; and so are all others around him! It's not enough to, 'know'. Gun safety habits need to be thoroughly inculcated into a shooter's psyche up to the point where safe gun handling behaviors and reactions are actually ingrained habitual responses.


i will agree with this....gun safety should be "habit"....nature....it only took me a little bit to get this into habit, but walking to the range, i won't even keep the magazine in a gun. i make sure it's empty, then release the magazine, lock the slide back, and physically and visually make sure there aren't any bullets in the gun.

then after shooting it, i rack the slide about 3-4 times and check visually and physically again.

now i don't know if that's completely proper gun safety but for me, i just like to check as many times as possible. 
i ALWAYS point the gun downrange, if i'm clearing a jam. 
i ALWAYS point the gun away from people...(that should be a "DUH")

i would love to go to a conceal & carry class, and a shooting class.....but first i would like to buy my handgun.


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## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

looks like you need to buy the G19 which you are best with
and not surprising - it is a huge world leader in sales and popularity


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

Years ago car manufacturers produced extra wide brake pedals that you could use with either foot (with an automatic tranny). They were outlawed because of the divided reflex issue. So that is a real issue.

I read once that (I paraphrase from memory) "Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."

So practice like a pro. 

I have a 10 meter competition pellet gun. It has a 1 pound trigger pull and no safety. I also have a "double action" CO2 gun with a 15+ pound pull. I always shoot the 10 meter gun first or I will accidentally fire the 10 meter gun before I intended. 

The same issue exists between a 3 or 4 pound pull on a 1911 and a 14 pound pull on a J-frame snub nose revolver.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

hideit said:


> looks like you need to buy the G19 which you are best with
> and not surprising - it is a huge world leader in sales and popularity


haha, yeah i'm definitely leaning towards that as my first purchase. 
there's still some other guns out there at local ranges for rental. so my testing really isn't over necessarily, but it's going to be hard to beat those first couple targets i shot with the G19. i mean i tried to shoot all the guns the same. line up the shot, wait a second and steady, then shoot. and i don't know what was up with me and that Taurus, but i just could not get a good pattern whatsoever. it looked like my pattern at 40FT with the Glock, lol.

that M&P was a close second though, i do believe i'll be giving that a try when i go up to the range again.
i think i'm allowed to try them side-by-side, so i think i'll shoot 25 rounds through the M&P, and then 25 rounds through the G19, and see what we come up with, haha.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Packard said:


> Years ago car manufacturers produced extra wide brake pedals that you could use with either foot (with an automatic tranny). They were outlawed because of the divided reflex issue. So that is a real issue.
> 
> I read once that (I paraphrase from memory) "Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."
> 
> ...


definitely going to be practicing as much as i can afford. the range is about 50mins away, so it'll be hard to afford that like every week or whatever. maybe i can find a place to shoot that's closer. we'll see.

and yeah, i think i get what you're saying.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

going to the range tomorrow to shoot the Glock 19 and the Smith & Wesson M&P!!!! i mmmmmay throw in the Ruger again just to see if i like it better somehow....but i think the choice is going to be between the Glock and the M&P.

i may even bump up to a .40 or .45 to see how i shoot with those, since my patterns weren't bad with the 9mm. but i'd really like to be proficient with a 9mm first.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

ZachRabbit said:


> definitely going to be practicing as much as i can afford. the range is about 50mins away, so it'll be hard to afford that like every week or whatever. maybe i can find a place to shoot that's closer. we'll see.
> 
> and yeah, i think i get what you're saying.


My old range was almost an hour away and I went on Saturdays. I just joined a local club and the range is 8 to 11 minutes away in the evenings. Weekend (days) are out because they are usually booked for competitions. But the nights are still open. So I might have to buy a .22 to keep my ammo expenses in line.


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## ronmail65 (Jan 18, 2011)

Hey ZachRabbit:

Just to chime in on the various topics and your research contained within this thread…

I would say you started with a somewhat diverse list of semi-auto pistols. My first point of advice would be to narrow it down based on size and features that are important to you. There’s a lot of pistols on the market, so this might be a more logical / systematic way of figuring out what you want and narrowing down your options.

For example, consider the importance of features such as the presence of an external safety, ambi-dexterous controls, de-cocker, firing design such as striker-fired (like the Glock, SR9, and M&P – which you seem to have zeroed in on) versus more traditional DA/SA designs (like the CZs and others noted), etc… 
Decide on size -- how important concealment is to you now as a new shooter? IMO, you will have an easier time learning on something that is NOT sub compact. Once you get more proficient and yearn for something smaller, then maybe consider an LC9, a Glock 26, etc... 

And, of course, a prerequisite to all of this is taking an NRA Handgun Safety Class. These class are probably offered at the range where you’re currently trying guns.

Lastly, in terms of shooting a lot without going broke, I second the notion that a 22LR pistol is not a bad idea. It will train you in some of the fundamentals, but it will condition you to a lesser recoil at the same time. Personally, I alternate shooting with a 22LR and my carry/home defense calibers. Some guns have 22LR conversion kits, or make the same or similar gun in a 22LR format. That way you’re still training on the same trigger, grip size, and sights.

Good luck!


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Packard said:


> My old range was almost an hour away and I went on Saturdays. I just joined a local club and the range is 8 to 11 minutes away in the evenings. Weekend (days) are out because they are usually booked for competitions. But the nights are still open. So I might have to buy a .22 to keep my ammo expenses in line.


yeah going to that range is seriously expensive that's why i wanted to make this as quick yet thorough as i could make it. i plan on going out to the local Fish & Game club to shoot, it's not that far away and you can go out and shoot pretty much anytime and any day cept during deer season.



ronmail65 said:


> Hey ZachRabbit:
> 
> Just to chime in on the various topics and your research contained within this thread&#8230;
> 
> ...


thanks man.

i actually just put a down payment on a like-new condition Glock 19 at that shop that had the range. i'm pretty confident with both the Glock 19 and the Smith & Wesson. i feel that the Glock will be a great durable starting point. both i think i shot competitively within each other. and all the gun stores i went to said my shooting wasn't bad at all. and one guy said a couple of my targets had groupings which were perfect for combat-type situations, according to what he teaches in his classes. not too big, not too little, about a 8" grouping in the center of critical mass.

i can't wait to get this thing out and start shooting!!!  :numbchuck:

and on the .22LR thing, i have had my eye on a few of those caliber guns, i may get one for like you said, practicing fundamentals, etc. hopefully something similar to my Glock so it doesn't feel so very different, i don't know yet. haha.


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

Congratulations on your almost-purchase.


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## ZachRabbit (Jan 21, 2012)

Holly said:


> Congratulations on your almost-purchase.


ahahaha, yeah, almost purchase. it should be paid off fairly quickly.
then i'll have to restrain myself from buying all kinds of accessories.
and other guns. :anim_lol:


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