# Interesting article about Ammo Lethality in Gun Digest



## MPDC69 (4 mo ago)

“The general (and predictable) consensus was that the most common CCW calibers see the most action. They all agreed that, from a medical perspective, there was no noticeable or real-world difference between .380 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum and 40-caliber.
The only major standout was .45 ACP, where it resulted in about twice the fatality rate as the others, even to extremities.
Very little relevant information was available on .22 LR, .25 ACP or larger rounds like the .44 Magnum, simply because these are rarer selections for concealed carry.”









A Medical Perspective On Ammunition And Lethality


An expert medical perspective concerning ammunition and lethality. How important is caliber, velocity and projectile type for defensive ammo?




gundigest.com





I was pleased to see this since I have standardized on .45acp.


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## armoredman (Oct 14, 2021)

I find it amazing how many people brag about the IFK they have mounted on their plate carrier, or the battle belt, or even in the glove box. When you are shopping at Safeway, where is your plate carrier? Where is your battle belt? Where is your car? We have had shootings in grocery stores a few times in very recent history, and violence under the Demonrat control is ramping up everywhere. While I have a full North American Rescue kit on my work duty belt, I also have an ersatz kit on my every day belt. It has a CAT, Combat Gauze, milspec bandage, gloves, multi tool, knife, and a few other things. It sticks out and might look stupid, but first, I'm old and I don't care what I look like off duty any more. It's a Condor Admin Pouch with the MOLLE shortened up in back to fit perfectly on my belt, and the way an admin pouch opens up with the shock cords, it's perfect to access quickly. Also, I've been using this pouch daily for about 3 years now - Condor gear sometimes works quite well.  
Do I expect to run into a mass casualty event? No, because if I did, I'd have MY plate carrier and long gun before I went in, preferably with a bunch of buddies from work equally equipped. But it weighs little and the unzipped outer pocket doubles as my cell phone holder...and most people just see the phone and move on. In all these years I think I've been asked about it maybe three times.
This is one that works well, (it's on my range bag), and isn't horribly expensive,
M-FAK Mini First Aid Kit for LE
Its small enough to not look TOO weird, and has a lot of what you might need.
This one rides on my duty belt, and no, I moved the CAT off the thing to ride the belt right behind it -it sticks out WAY too much.
Belt Trauma Kit (BTK)
If nothing else, you can go to this excellent resource and buy the pieces individually, and put them in whatever pouch you decide to use - the CAT is always the hard one, being a bit bulky. But, based on responses from people who know, I won't use any other tourniquet. BTW, I did add an extra flat compressed gauze to that one - cost is minimal and bulk is minimal - good for packing a wound. TQ the limbs, pack the joints, seal the box. 
Rant off...


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Every time you turn around there is another "study" that tries to prove its point regarding handgun bullet effectiveness, lethality, and stopping power. Thirty-five years ago, it was the lighter bullet traveling at a higher velocity that was in vogue. Then came some quite novel bullet designs that became all the rage. And of more later times, we are told that there is almost no difference in the threat termination effects between the modern 9mm, the .40S&W, and the .45ACP top defensive rounds on the market. So what does one do?

Read the study reports. Weigh their points and conclusions against other reports as much as you are able. And hope that you have chosen a caliber and load that will work best to save your hide should the time come you ever have to call upon your sidearm in an extreme situation.


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## MPDC69 (4 mo ago)

The HOLE truth……….










Up to you but……….


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

I've never been a fan of the "wound packing" fad. Medical personell, OK but still dicey. John Q Public? Well too many things can go very wrong, and I've seen much more basic skills FUBR. Tournequet has become the savior of the world. Even something that basic and that has been around since before Moses is being mishandled and screwed up.
Comparing a pistol and rifle round is pretty lame. They are very different above 2200 fps.
Might be a great doc, but not one who needs to be writing an article like this. Unfortunately, most who do shouldn't.
Happy shadow casting.


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## Jester560 (Jun 22, 2020)

MPDC69 said:


> The HOLE truth……….
> 
> View attachment 22010
> 
> ...


The data on the 10mm is inaccurate. I have seen first hand the damage one does to meat and bone. Your chart therefore means nothing.


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## MPDC69 (4 mo ago)

Not my chart, just information to accept or challenge. It’s how we learn. As I said, it’s up to you.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

MPDC69 said:


> The HOLE truth……….
> 
> View attachment 22010
> 
> ...


In November 1969, I killed a male deer using a Ruger Blackhawk 6 1/2 inch barrel in .357 Magnum with a handloaded round consisting of 16 grains of Hercules 2400, a CCI primer, and a Norma 160 grain JHP bullet. The damage to the top portion of the deer's heart was pretty amazing. This was after the bullet hit one of his ribs. Never found the bullet but still have a picture of his heart somewhere in the house.

Point is, really good defensive bullets can do some remarkable damage to the internals of a living body. Damned If I want to get hit by one.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

SouthernBoy said:


> In November 1969, I killed a male deer using a Ruger Blackhawk 6 1/2 inch barrel in .357 Magnum with a handloaded round consisting of 16 grains of Hercules 2400, a CCI primer, and a Norma 160 grain JHP bullet. The damage to the top portion of the deer's heart was pretty amazing. This was after the bullet hit one of his ribs. Never found the bullet but still have a picture of his heart somewhere in the house.
> 
> Point is, really good defensive bullets can do some remarkable damage to the internals of a living body. Damned If I want to get hit by one.


You just hit on the main thing going. Hitting something the target can't live without.
That is difficult, in the best case. A moving body at odd angles, maybe some cover involved, and a fistful of variables that can't be controlled.
Then there are the ones you can "control", good luck with most of those, especially in the most stressful situation you have probably ever been in. Everything speeds up, except the perception of it speeding up, and another fistful of variables that are all on you, and against you. All will effect outcome.
Cliché after cliché, and things go very well more times than not, but Murphy is dealing you a wildcard with malice. What could possibly not go as planned?
Do what you can, put lead in the wheelhouse, or as close as possible, and stop when there is no longer a threat or you are out of ammo. Hope that either will give you the opportunity to escape.
Cheers.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

LostinTexas said:


> You just hit on the main thing going. Hitting something the target can't live without.
> That is difficult, in the best case. A moving body at odd angles, maybe some cover involved, and a fistful of variables that can't be controlled.
> Then there are the ones you can "control", good luck with most of those, especially in the most stressful situation you have probably ever been in. Everything speeds up, except the perception of it speeding up, and another fistful of variables that are all on you, and against you. All will effect outcome.
> Cliché after cliché, and things go very well more times than not, but Murphy is dealing you a wildcard with malice. What could possibly not go as planned?
> ...


I am an ardent believer in the idea that when the SHTF and is facing you like RIGHT NOW, you are not going to know how you will react... unless you have had a similar experience in your past. Preparation, both physical and mental and playing "what if" scenarios can go a long way in helping your reaction and seeing that you survive the encounter but even then, the real thing is likely to be different than you ever imagined when it happens.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

There are tons of info on ballistics, and also reports from medical personnel about what seems to do the most damage.

We all know that handgun ammo is a poor manstopper as a whole. Hitting the target is the most important things.

I am satisfied with 9mm ammo. I do not feel undergunned. Years ago when I was in a police academy (in the 1990s), we had to watch a video where some guy fought with an officer and knocked out the officer's partner. And, the cop shot the guy 6 times with a 357..... They kept fighting, and the cop had to reload the revolver (while fighting) and shoot him 6 more times to get the guy to stop fighting. 

The guy was going to die with all the head shots - but he was so high on drugs he kept fighting... Sometimes, it doesn't matter what you are carrying. 1 shot stops don't always work like they do in the movies.


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## MPDC69 (4 mo ago)

A good discussion just takes a little catalyst. Police Academy in 1969 issued S&W Model 10 with 6 rounds of .38 spec. At the range we were issued more ammo and shot for a couple of hours with minimal instruction. That was it. By law, we had to carry in City limits always even though our actual first day of classes in law and proceedures had not begun. 
Thankfully, that has changed quite a bit. My son had much better firearms training decades later.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Shipwreck said:


> There are tons of info on ballistics, and also reports from medical personnel about what seems to do the most damage.
> 
> We all know that handgun ammo is a poor manstopper as a whole. Hitting the target is the most important things.
> 
> ...


Around 30 years ago, Marshall and Sanow made quite a splash in the gun world with their three books on stopping power and bullet performance by caliber and load. For a time, their work pretty much became the bible of the topic*. But as time went on and bullet design evolved, some things changed and some things tended to remain the same. Perhaps the most significant changes took place in the 9mm world, followed by the .40S&W offerings. These improvements not only benefitted the law enforcement communities but also the civilian market, as well. We are now again seeing a host of new bullet designs in the 9mm caliber, probably driven by the huge success of subcompact pistols in that caliber. And once again, this is a very good thing.

* I have all three of their books.


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## Islands7 (Nov 30, 2016)

KUDOS
You have guts in this world of profit & popularity "voting" what is correct while facts are ignored.
Re: the horrible slant taken by this author posing as an even-handed article on calibers
Shooting Illustrated Oct 2022: 9mm or 45acp by Richard Mann

I offer in your defense - if at all needed -
Lucky Gunner Labs testing of various calibers, can be sorted by penetration, expansion for each, then compare on your own,
Chuck Hawks
& John Howard Taylor 
(sort on TKO)





Common Handgun Cartridges


Common cartridges used in modern handguns. Includes ballistics and descriptions.




www.genitron.com





Also note, in your own defense you may only get zero to ONE shot off!


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## Islands7 (Nov 30, 2016)

Shipwreck said:


> There are tons of info on ballistics, and also reports from medical personnel about what seems to do the most damage.
> 
> We all know that handgun ammo is a poor manstopper as a whole. Hitting the target is the most important things.
> 
> ...


YIKES
thanks for sharing but YIKES
Most of the same was coming from 9mm reporting in past


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## MPDC69 (4 mo ago)

Islands7 said:


> KUDOS
> You have guts in this world of profit & popularity "voting" what is correct while facts are ignored.
> Re: the horrible slant taken by this author posing as an even-handed article on calibers
> Shooting Illustrated Oct 2022: 9mm or 45acp by Richard Mann
> ...


Great post, thank you.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

The "flying ashtray" is no joke.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

OK, here is a little article, probably as good or as bad as any.
Statistics don't lie, but the ones putting them together do, or just leave out certain details for what ever reason.
In particular, the One Shot Stops. Looking at this 32 APC, 380, and 22LR are top picks. Oh really? Well they may be accurate but I'm questioning distance and some other things. Were they psychological or debilitating stops? They stopped, so there is that.
The last chart is the most interesting. All this BS is put together, and then there is the one thing that means the most to me. The percentage that DIDN'T stop. No matter the round count, or conditions.
Service calibers fare very well, and nothing is too surprising, other than the 32 APC is 112%. Look for yourself.
Choosing a SD caliber


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

LostinTexas said:


> OK, here is a little article, probably as good or as bad as any.
> Statistics don't lie, but the ones putting them together do, or just leave out certain details for what ever reason.
> In particular, the One Shot Stops. Looking at this 32 APC, 380, and 22LR are top picks. Oh really? Well they may be accurate but I'm questioning distance and some other things. Were they psychological or debilitating stops? They stopped, so there is that.
> The last chart is the most interesting. All this BS is put together, and then there is the one thing that means the most to me. The percentage that DIDN'T stop. No matter the round count, or conditions.
> ...


While I respect those who put together such graphs, charts, and text, I will say this. There is no way I would carry a .22 short, long, or long rife or a .32ACP for a primary carry caliber. My innate instinct forces me to refute any such claims that these calibers meet or exceed the ability of top rated quality ammunition in calibers such as 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .357 Magnum, and .10mm to end a threat quickly and decisively in my favor. It just defies common sense to me. One can read studies all day that cover the gauntlet from each side of the equation and one will come out confused and still wondering what is the best caliber and round for their particular needs.

Here is an older link to a rather long report on the subject which is worth reading. The writer has his biases but then, don't we all (mine are clearly spelled out above). Perhaps one of the best examples is to check out some videos of people handgun hunting with calibers which can also be used for self defense. See how quickly their game is dispatched with, say a .357 Magnum*, a .40S&W, or a 10mm round. Compare that to what a .22LR might do to a buck, were it legal for use.

Note: Keep in mind that this article is pretty old and a lot of advances and improvements have been made to defensive ammo since it was written.



Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue



* I killed a deer many years ago with a .357 Magnum using one of my hand loads. The damage to top part of his heart was pretty nasty.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

SouthernBoy said:


> While I respect those who put together such graphs, charts, and text, I will say this. There is no way I would carry a .22 short, long, or long rife or a .32ACP for a primary carry caliber. My innate instinct forces me to refute any such claims that these calibers meet or exceed the ability of top rated quality ammunition in calibers such as 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .357 Magnum, and .10mm to end a threat quickly and decisively in my favor. It just defies common sense to me. One can read studies all day that cover the gauntlet from each side of the equation and one will come out confused and still wondering what is the best caliber and round for their particular needs.
> 
> Here is an older link to a rather long report on the subject which is worth reading. The writer has his biases but then, don't we all (mine are clearly spelled out above). Perhaps one of the best examples is to check out some videos of people handgun hunting with calibers which can also be used for self defense. See how quickly their game is dispatched with, say a .357 Magnum*, a .40S&W, or a 10mm round. Compare that to what a .22LR might do to a buck, were it legal for use.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying the 32,22, and 380 are best, and I don't think they are either, just putting out the "numbers". That is why I pointed out the "Didn't Stop" stats, and the service calibers are about as equal as it gets.
I like the article you posted. 10% Ordinance Gel is a test medium. It is repeatable, controllable, and measurable. You can bet your house that the ones who put all the gel testing, went to cadaver and shooting autopsy data as well. Cadaver testing isn't something to put out to the public, for obvious reasons. Comparing gel and cadaver does give some measurable likeness though. Enough to determine what somewhat equates to what.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Gel testing is fine for comparisons between selected calibers and loads in a stable medium when the object is to see how far the bullets will travel in the medium, its expansion size, and how well the bullets held up when fired into this medium. What it can't show is what actually takes place within the body of an attacker. The number of variables is enormous and varied, and this alone is going to skew any results from gel testing.

The best information is the performance data in actual gunfight situations, and even then the number of variables is incredible. But street creds can and do offer the best body of data in the long run and therefore, would really be of major significance if we had that information readily available.


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## drycreek (Jul 17, 2021)

Thankfully, I have zero experience shooting human beings with any cartridge, but I have killed lots of hogs with both the 10mm and .40 S&W. From those experiences, (and this is anecdotal because it’s not controlled or scientific), I can tell you that if you don’t hit the heart, brain, or some major bone structure with the first shot, you are gonna have to shoot some more. I once used thirteen rounds to put down two boar hogs in a 40’ corral trap. That’s a full load and another mag in a Shield .40 S&W. My Jack Russell got in the trap and was chasing them and I was forced to shoot through the squares of the cattle panels at running hogs without shooting my dog. I would say that comes close to the panic of a gunfight and I didn’t perform very well. It was comical after I got them dead, but not a damn bit while it was happening. That dog is my buddy and I thought they would hurt him even though they were just 130/150 lb. each. Fortunately, he was faster than them !

In all these instances hollowpoints were used in the .40s because it was my carry gun, and FMJs with a flat point were used in the 10mm. In every instance a shot to the high shoulder would put a hog down, even a 200 lb. hog, if shot with the 10mm. If you shot him behind the shoulder he would surely die, but only after he bled out. The forty would do the same most times to the shoulder and always through the heart/lungs. Either will kill a hog dead no matter his size if you make a good head shot. I’m here to tell you a bullet hole from either through the ear or snout just makes ‘em mad as hell ! It will also make you glad that they are in the trap and you are not. If you want to get an inkling of what a bear charge would feel like just get a 200 lb. boar hog mad and have him charge the fence, and he will. If you built the trap right he’ll bounce off, but you will have a tingle up your spine a sinking feeling in your gut, and a squinch in your……..


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