# Lethality of JHP versus JSP versus ball, etc.



## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

One of the guys I work with just bought a S&W M&P40 compact. I asked him if he wanted my 155gr Gold Dots and after explaining they were hollow point bullets for SD, he said, "Man I dunno, I'm not tryin' to kill anybody." I think his idea was in line with a lot of the rest of population that think if you get hit with a hollow point, it explodes inside you and blows you apart. I explained the purpose of a HP...expand to prevent overpenetration, transfer all energy to target, and create larger diameter cavities. Then I started thinking about how lethal different types of bullets are. My understanding is that a HP, besides the overpenetration issue, is designed to deter or incapacitate an attacker ASAP, not specificially kill him. But does that make them more lethal than a FMJ to the initial target? If clothing or an arm kept a HP from penetrating deeply enough to hit vital organs, would a FMJ be deadlier in that it continues to penetrate after the HP stops? Or in long terms, would a bullet that caused an entry AND exit wound bleed more severly than one that only produced an entry wound? It would depend on the situation, but generally speaking are HPs designed to be deadlier/more lethal, or just to be more effective at stopping an attacker while attempting to avoid injuries of innocents because of overpenetration? I've never been shot, but it sounds like getting shot with a HP that mushroomed and stopped inside my body would hurt (physically cause pain) more than a FMJ that passed straight through. I could be way off in these assumptions but when people ask what exactly the purpose of a HP is, I'd like to be able to explain while still maintain that the purpose isn't necessarily to kill someone.

Also, how do JHPs differ in SD ballistics versus JSPs? I haven't heard much about soft points.


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## forestranger (Jan 20, 2008)

Always felt SPs were better suited were better suited for hunting deer size critters or above in a high velocity revolver. Deep penetration and not a lot of expansion unless you have real high velocities. In autos, the soft noses can hangup on feedramp and unless they hit bone probably won't expand much. Used to use them for hunting years ago and couldn't tell much difference in them and a lead SWC.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

My thinking is that HPs aren't specifically designed to kill, but stop an attacker. And when you figure in a design that is designed to physiologically disable or incapacitate the human body, it has a higher chance of causing death, so the two go hand in hand.


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## soldierboy029 (Jan 2, 2008)

A hollowpoint is made to limit penetration, due to the increased resistance caused by the larger diameter of the bullet as the jacket folds back. In essence all the energy from the round is usually expended within the body instead of being wasted because it passed through to easily. A hollowpoint will create a larger temporary wound cavity(Stretch caused by energy deposit), but in the popular handgun cartridges(9mm Luger,.40 S&W, and .45 Auto) most ballisticians(this is highly debated) say that penetration and permanent wound cavity(Actual path of bullet through flesh) are the only thing you can count on for incapicitating them which I believe is true. That being said you have to look at what you will be doing with your defensive pistol. If used mostly for home defense and just everyday carry hollowpoints are the best defense choice as overpenetration is less of an issue. All police departments for the most part carry hollowpoints in the United States. Now in a military aspect you have to use FMJ during times of war because of Geneva Convention and the laws of war. Also a FMJ at a high velocity(sorry .45 guys) is more apt to penetrate armor. SD would be the same, no matter the type of bullet as:


"Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD, and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter.

SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside an animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs. A bullet that fails to penetrate the fur, skin, muscle, and bone necessary to reach the vital organs is very unlikely to bring an animal down.

SD stays the same for all bullets of the same weight in the same caliber--shape does not affect SD."

The JSP's usually are only used for hunting with revolvers, although Cor-bon makes a 180grain load for the 10mm but it is made for hunting as well. They will penetrate more then a JHP. 
As for actual killing power all defensive pistol cartridges have more in common with each other then differences, and all are under powered for instant kills unless you make a hit to the Central Nervous System.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Two wounds - one entry, one exit - should theoretically cause death sooner than a single entry hole. Since FMJs and JSPs are more likely to perforate a human, it seems likely that they would be somewhat more lethal. Most hunters prefer bullets that exit, which cause faster death of the prey (and leave a nicer blood trail).

Not that any of it matter for defense, where the goal is simply to stop the guy as quickly as possible. Whether he dies or not is irrelevant.


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## Arcus (Feb 13, 2008)

*Knife and gun club experience in the operating room*

While I haven't worked in any busy penetrating trauma centers, the GSWs I have seen were worst when all of the bullet's energy was expended in the victim - no exit wound. Many of the through-and-through hits (entry and exit wound) often missed meaningful anatomic structures altogether and were quite survivable. They were not in the .40 cal or larger ranges though either.

That said I defer to anyone who's ever worked in a trauma center or equivalent.


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## bps3040 (Jan 6, 2008)

Here is a review of handgun wounding factors. I have read it. Penetration is the key. They talk how hollow points can get cloth (from BG's shirt) and slow it down penetration big time. Another odd fact is the skin on the opposite side of the body , for a bullet to go thru it,is essentially equal to 4" of meat and muscle. Pretty interesting read, lol, but I like reading.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


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## soldierboy029 (Jan 2, 2008)

Internal Hemmoraging can kill just as quickly as external especially if it fills the lungs up and causes suffocation


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## soldierboy029 (Jan 2, 2008)

Clothing that clogs a hollowpoint causes a bullet not to expand and therefore increases penetration compared to the normal performance related with hollowpoints


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> Two wounds - one entry, one exit - should theoretically cause death sooner than a single entry hole. Since FMJs and JSPs are more likely to perforate a human, it seems likely that they would be somewhat more lethal. Most hunters prefer bullets that exit, which cause faster death of the prey (and leave a nicer blood trail).
> 
> Not that any of it matter for defense, where the goal is simply to stop the guy as quickly as possible. Whether he dies or not is irrelevant.


This is along the lines of what I read the other night. JHPs are supposed to STOP someone, not kill or wound. I just wasn't sure if they were considered more lethal than ball ammo as they typically don't produce two wounds with one shot, which would increase blood loss and blood pressure.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

In regard to the killer bullet vs. the wounding bullet: I have never seen an advertisement for a metalic bullet that touted its lack of killing power. I believe the school of thought is that if they are dead they have been stopped. Stopping of course being the objective.

There are rubber bullets and bean bag rounds that are intended to educate rather than directly stop an action. The message being, if I continue my actions it will hurt a bunch.

If your associate wants to eliminate the possibility of killing anybody tell him to sell the gun and get back in the herd.

If you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger you just might kill them.

:smt1099


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> Most hunters prefer bullets that exit, which cause faster death of the prey (and leave a nicer blood trail).


I have been hunting with rifle, shotgun, pistol plus bow and arrow for 50+ years. I have never picked a bullet with the intention of leaving any blood trail. If you know what you are doing you drop the animal in it's tracks and don't need a blood trail. Also, If you wish to save the animals hide you want a minimum number of holes in it.

Plan to hit.

:smt1099


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Good words TOF! If you are stuck following a blood trail you didn't do your job right to start with. Stopping power is tied to how motivated your attacker is at the time of the attack. You can blow a BG's heart up with a direct hit and he's still got better than a half a minute to do his worst before the major muscle groups run out of oxygenated blood. Just ask a cop in one of the major cities about drug crazed crack heads....They take a lot of killing to stop or a shot to the head. I don't think anybody here wants to kill another human but if you pull your gun it means things are bad enough that you gotta do what you gotta do. As for me, I'll do my best to drop the sucker and if he lives it means I missed by just a bit. He made that choice. It may haunt me the rest of my days but I'll still be suckin air....and that's all that matters in the end.

Serious stuff

A hollow point means a larger wound channel and faster blood loss. This is a real eye opener and a good read:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
I think most of us have seen this already


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Re blood trails...

I've been personally witness to whitetail deer getting plugged, through and through with a 150gr bullet, out of a .308, both lungs, broadside... that ran on pure adreniline for over 200yds and dropped stone cold dead. Left a blood trail that a blind man could follow by feel.

I've also seen the same size deer, taken side to side with a .243 of about 100gr??? Both lungs, entry and exit wound within 3 inches of the first deer, and it dropped like it was struck by lightening... It was down before my dad could work the slide.

Shy of a head shot, or a spinal hit, deer or men may go a long way before going down, or they may just fold like a 2-7 off-suit.

Jeff


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## PanaDP (Jul 20, 2007)

JeffWard said:


> Re blood trails...
> 
> I've been personally witness to whitetail deer getting plugged, through and through with a 150gr bullet, out of a .308, both lungs, broadside... that ran on pure adreniline for over 200yds and dropped stone cold dead. Left a blood trail that a blind man could follow by feel.
> 
> ...


It is a bit odd how deer can react to being shot. My first deer was shot in the heart quartering towards me. It thrashed once and kind of stood up straight and then fell right down dead. Another ran nearly 150 yards and must have had damn near no blood left. The strangest one was the only deer I ever shot with a bow (a longbow, incidentally). The arrow passes through and the deer didn't react at all. It bled out right there and just fell over with no sign of pain whatsoever. I know razor cuts can be so clean they don't hurt much but not hurt _at all_?


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

When I was in scouts one of the scout masters was telling us about his friend that took a buck with a compound bow. It was walking away from him (not quartering, straight away), he shot, and it dropped. They couldn't find the arrow or a wound, so they went ahead and field dressed it. The arrow was in its stomach, and apparently had gone straight up its cornhole. Pretty sh*tty way to die (no pun intended).


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Well, opinions clearly vary, but I prefer a bullet that goes all the way through an animal. I must not be a perfect shooter since sometimes I have had to track animals even when they were hit solidly (and not always by me). Big blood trail works for me.

The link from FirearmsTactical to the FBI results is good, but I'm not sure they really address the original question. Mr. Dodson and the FBI are (correctly) more concerned with "stopping power" than "killing power," which aren't necessarily the same thing. Still, I do think that perforation (versus just deep penetration) seems more likely to cause actual death.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

Defensive marksmanship and real estate combine: "location, location, location". A hollow-point in someone's leg is unlikely to be serious, while a FMJ that hits the aorta or heart is generally fatal without immediate medical help, and possibly is so anyway.

It's all deep wound vs big hole. Expanders trade some of the penetration depth the FMJ would have for a wider wound channel. That's true for any expander, whether it's a traditional hollowpoint, HydraShok, TMJ, EFMJ, lead-nose wadcutter, or EFMJ.

Some expander designs expand more radically than others, but no handgun puts enough energy into a lead slug to "shred" or "explode" its target with one or two hits. That's nothing more than anti-gun psychobabble about how modern bullet designs create unsurviveable wounds. They point to the banning of expander rounds in warfare by the Hague Convention, while neglecting to mention that soldiers have far nastier things to deal with than small-arms fire.

And about "I don't want to kill anybody"; Tell him not to own a gun for defense purposes if that's his mentality. A gun protects your life by ending that of the BG. If you're not prepared to kill when you have to, you will not draw or fire, and the BG will take your gun from you and use it against you. If he won't kill, tell him to buy a .22 for paper punching; it's far more economical and will stay in its case when not at the range.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I asked him about whether or not he plans to carry. He mentioned getting his CCDW license, but said he didn't plan on carrying. He said something about keeping it in his car and all I told him was no. If you need it when you're not in your car, you can't get to it, and if someone breaks in, you've just hooked them up with a deadly weapon. The decision was between the M&P40 compact, HK P2000SK, and maybe a Glock 27, and he went with the M&P because of the rebate, which is stupid. I hate to badmouth the guy 'cause he's cool as hell and great to work with, but I wish he'd at least asked my opinion on a good handgun to start with, and told me his purposes.

As far as the HP goes, I think his impression of a HP is that it's purpose is to kill someone, and thinks, like the rest of the general population, that HPs are minature hand grenades. I explained to him that generally a FMJ is more lethal as it penetrates further, can overpenetrate and hit others, and creates an exit wound that will aid in faster bleeding. But like the rest of you said, you don't shoot defensively to wound someone. You shoot to stop them in their tracks, and immediately. And if you're not willing to kill someone, don't shoot them, and don't even bother getting a defensive firearm.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

*I need to modify some!*

When we were talking about blood trails I was thinking along the lines of a gut shot animal that may wonder for miles not an animal that is hit properly and usually doesn't go more than a few hundred yards. No offence was intended unless you regularly gut shoot deer and elk........
*"THEN YOU'RE A MORON"*

I knew some brothers that were "hunter crazed" and would take any and all shots. They would come back with tales of wounded and lost game all the time.....Thank God they eventually matured and became responsable hunters


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

bps3040 said:


> Here is a review of handgun wounding factors. I have read it. Penetration is the key. They talk how hollow points can get cloth (from BG's shirt) and slow it down penetration big time. Another odd fact is the skin on the opposite side of the body , for a bullet to go thru it,is essentially equal to 4" of meat and muscle. Pretty interesting read, lol, but I like reading.
> 
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


BPS, if you are referring to the discussion on page 11, I think you mean that clothing clogging up a hollow point can slow down expansion, not penetration.

Have you seen the FBI Ballistics data? If you haven't check it out. It's also pretty interesting, if you're a chart guy. What I noticed is that alot of the hollow point bullets on the list (at least in the 9MM category) actually penetrate significantly further thru cloth gelatin than thru the bare stuff. Check the stats on the Speer Gold Dot 124gr. 9mm +P (which is a hollow point), about 10th down on the list. It penetrates 13.4" thru bare gelatin and over 20" thru the cloth gelatin. It expanded a little less thru the cloth jello. From the data it appears to me that most of the premium hollow points offer more than enough penetration (especially thru cloth jello) to warrant having the advantage of increased expansion over ball ammo.

Here's a link to the chart:

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

HPs penetrate more and expand less with clothed gelatin as the cloth fibers "clog up" the cavity and retard/prevent expansion. After setting a 9mm Gold Dot next to a .40S&W Gold Dot, the shape differences are enormous. The cavity on the .40 is probably 3X the area of the 9mm...I wonder if 9mms would generally be less prone to getting the cavity clogged as they're a lot smaller.


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