# Glock America's weapon of choice???



## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

Aside from boasting a higher magazine capacity then most back in the day, I think they're an inferior weapon when compared to Sig, HK, Smith, CZ, or just about any major player for that matter. I also speak from actually carrying one as a duty weapon for a short time. I personally don't really like any polymer framed weapon, they just feel cheap to me. I hated the grip and feel of my Glock 17, so right from the get go i was unhappy, then there was the bottom of the mag coming off while climbing through a window on a call, and then had anyone been laying wait, the sound of all the bullets falling out of the bottom of the gun would have made for a really unique alert. and the final straw was the weapon going full auto during training, for no know reason and did with no know warning. then fire normally, only to do it again when it apparently felt like it. If you have a first Gen then yes it can and does happen and any web search will return a ton of stories about it. I through it in the safe never to be used again, and went to a Sig P220 .45, which while there may be others that may be equally as well crafted, I've yet to find any off the shelf handguns that are better as a service weapon, and performed flawlessly for the rest of my career. Governmental agencies buy Glocks because they're dirt cheap, why do you think NYPD uses them? The FBI, etc. In Government you're almost guaranteed that most of your equipment is that which is provided by the lowest bidder, I'm just bored of Glock this Glock that, and opinions of every Tom Dick and Harry whos only experience is shooting one at the range her and there. Anyone else feel the same? or have any solid evidence as to how a Glock is superior to any combat handgun? Just up for some friendly debate.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

So what is it that you trust enough to carry, something that is not "going full auto during training, for no know reason" I hope.
You have a hardon for Glocks, that's fine.
You want to make a good introduction, you are spot on.
A friendly debate might have to wait for a member other than myself. I doubt that I can succeed in that endeavor shy of going ad hominin. Welcome, I guess.....


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## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

SIG P220, is was i trusted and carried as i stated in the post. And has nothing to do with hating a Glock, just can’t get around the endless hype when there’s so much better. Honest the post was from a chat diring a get together of some old friends remembering days of old and service weapons came up, including the now virtually forgotten mp5. Debate is debate, no right or wrong, just meant to generate opinions not anger


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I have owned many Glocks over the years (13 over the past 30 years). I ended up losing interest in them for a long time, and never warmed up to them for most of my gun buying years... 

But, then I "discovered" the new 5th gen ones about 2 years ago. Man, they are great. I own a few now, and I love them. I even sent one to TTI and had it customized (5th gen G34). I got it back in November. I found it so awesome that I sent them a 2nd one in Dec - a Glock 19 5th gen. Can't wait to get it back.

Everyone had there favs... Most people here know me as a Beretta fanatic... I've owned 41 Berettas over 30 years, but nothing wrong with Glocks. 

I've also owned 7 Sigs over the years. I have none now. I personally always preferred Berettas to Sigs. I've just never warmed up to Sigs, personally... But, that is why there are so many different brands of guns - we all have our preferences.


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## Higgy Baby (Aug 10, 2021)

I've never been a Glock fan......always preferred the DA/SA type and Sig/Beretta were on the top of my list. Tried a few striker guns along the way- some were okay, others not so. Bought a Canik TP9 DA....and thought it was great so I bought another one. Then a TP9 Elite- WOW....what a shooter...then a Sig 365....wow again- love that gun. Probably my all time favorite. Then I bought a Ruger LCP Max...! Small, lightweight, 13 rounds!!!......OMG....but what a piece of crap! Sent it back to Ruger 2 times for failure to go into battery- still fails. Worst performing gun I have ever seen.
But Glocks?.....probably okay....but nothing I would ever want.


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## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> I have owned many Glocks over the years (13 over the past 30 years). I ended up losing interest in them for a long time, and never warmed up to them for most of my gun buying years...
> 
> But, then I "discovered" the new 5th gen ones about 2 years ago. Man, they are great. I own a few now, and I love them. I even sent one to TTI and had it customized (5th gen G34). I got it back in November. I found it so awesome that I sent them a 2nd one in Dec - a Glock 19 5th gen. Can't wait to get it back.
> 
> ...


I liked the Beretta feel in your hand but at the time the subpar ammo they issue put me off , plus 45s were approved and the Sig was simple and fit my hand well, my first choice would always be a 1911, but they wouldn’t allow single action, and so it was sig or a smith, so i chose the Sig, i just never liked polymer frame grip but that said i don’t own the lastest Gen Glock so i can’t comment on improvements. but the gen 1 trigger was probably what i hated more than the grip.


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## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

Higgy Baby said:


> I've never been a Glock fan......always preferred the DA/SA type and Sig/Beretta were on the top of my list. Tried a few striker guns along the way- some were okay, others not so. Bought a Canik TP9 DA....and thought it was great so I bought another one. Then a TP9 Elite- WOW....what a shooter...then a Sig 365....wow again- love that gun. Probably my all time favorite. Then I bought a Ruger LCP Max...! Small, lightweight, 13 rounds!!!......OMG....but what a piece of crap! Sent it back to Ruger 2 times for failure to go into battery- still fails. Worst performing gun I have ever seen.
> But Glocks?.....probably okay....but nothing I would ever want.


I was just never a fan of polymer, im glad you commented on the Canik i was considering getting one just to add to my collection, they seem like a lot of gun for the money. Supposedly Sig has a 38 super model although I haven’t seen one, i like odd chamberings and thats one of my favorites


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

My first handgun that I purchased was a Beretta 92FS. Probably large,y because of that I have a preference for DA/SA handguns (Even polymer framed ones like the Beretta Px4 and CZ P07.). I used to bash and hate on Glocks until I bought a police trade in Glock 17 (2nd Gen). I had every intention of hating it and selling it off after I had tried my hand at refurbishing it. I had happened to have to spend a couple weeks in Athens, GA for work and I took the 17 along and dropped it off at Glock in Smyrna. They replaced every internal part but the barrel for free. I then refinished the slide, which was down to bare metal in several places, and I replaced the sights with night sights (the ones on it when I bought it were burned out and the Glock factor replaced them with standard Glock sights). Then I proceeded to use the pistol for testing new handloads. Used the handgun in practical shooting competitions, and made it my GA swamp pistol for hiking, scouting, hunting sidearm (for possible dispatches and snakes not as a primary hunting firearm.) and my ATV sidearm. Cranked several thousand trouble free rounds through the pistol. 

Never could bring myself to sell it or trade it. It has become my beater. I don’t mind if it gets scratched up, beat up, wet, muddy, dusty, etc. like any other pistol I expect it could fail. Like any other pistol I have I still maintain it to best ensure it’s reliability.

Glocks aren’t anything “special” to me in regard to performance, but they are pretty simple and do the job as well as my Berrettas, Sigs, CZs, etc. I still like my Berettas and CZs for carry. The Sigs are not far behind. (I have a Sig 220 in .45 that I prefer for carry over My 1911s, but don’t tell the 1911 guys that. I like my 1911s for range, target and certain competitions.)

I have no personal experience with Glock to put them down. The grip angle isn’t for everybody, but most folks don’t complain about similar grip angles on target .22 pistols like Rugers.


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## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

SSGN_Doc said:


> My first handgun that I purchased was a Beretta 92FS. Probably large,y because of that I have a preference for DA/SA handguns (Even polymer framed ones like the Beretta Px4 and CZ P07.). I used to bash and hate on Glocks until I bought a police trade in Glock 17 (2nd Gen). I had every intention of hating it and selling it off after I had tried my hand at refurbishing it. I had happened to have to spend a couple weeks in Athens, GA for work and I took the 17 along and dropped it off at Glock in Smyrna. They replaced every internal part but the barrel for free. I then refinished the slide, which was down to bare metal in several places, and I replaced the sights with night sights (the ones on it when I bought it were burned out and the Glock factor replaced them with standard Glock sights). Then I proceeded to use the pistol for testing new handloads. Used the handgun in practical shooting competitions, and made it my GA swamp pistol for hiking, scouting, hunting sidearm (for possible dispatches and snakes not as a primary hunting firearm.) and my ATV sidearm. Cranked several thousand trouble free rounds through the pistol.
> 
> Never could bring myself to sell it or trade it. It has become my beater. I don’t mind if it gets scratched up, beat up, wet, muddy, dusty, etc. like any other pistol I expect it could fail. Like any other pistol I have I still maintain it to best ensure it’s reliability.
> 
> ...


My 17 is a first gen, and went full auto sporadically, dept armorer was supposedly a Glock expert but never found the issue. Theres tons of similar cases online and lots of possible theory why, but that alone was enough to pitch it. I tossed it in the safe and hasn’t seen the light of day in almost 30 years. I just thought the hype was a little much for what it was and always hated the trigger. Im not saying they dont do the job but when I switched to a large dept and you could by your own from a list of approved makes and calibers i went with a Sig P220 .45 which in craftsmanship alone is incomparable. But even that’s opinion and can only say take down was simple, it never malfunctioned was buried in the dirt and mud in training while apart and assembled and shot unaffected. Lots of stuff will as well im sure but it served me the rest of my career where the glock didn’t make it 2 weeks. Maybe got a lemon but someone else has a different experience, like anything its all a crap shoot


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

I have two Glocks, and love them both...but I love all guns (yeah, even the Hi Point carbine), not a fan of their pistols. I trust the two Glocks I have 100%, and one cannot deny Glock's overall performance record. 

When I carry/handle/shoot a Glock, I kinda look at it as a "tool" to launch a bullet, and their is not much "personality" there for me. I cannot deny that I trust them.

When I do the same with other handguns I have, especially the Beretta 92 platform, it is not a tool for me...it is an extension of me and my personality. At least that is how I feel.


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

berettatoter said:


> I have two Glocks, and love them both...but I love all guns (yeah, even the Hi Point carbine), not a fan of their pistols. I trust the two Glocks I have 100%, and one cannot deny Glock's overall performance record.
> 
> When I carry/handle/shoot a Glock, I kinda look at it as a "tool" to launch a bullet, and their is not much "personality" there for me. I cannot deny that I trust them.
> 
> When I do the same with other handguns I have, especially the Beretta 92 platform, it is not a tool for me...it is an extension of me and my personality. At least that is how I feel.


Much like yourself, the Glocks to me represent a functional tool. 

Berretta, probably has more of an emotional connection with me, since a 92cwas my first handgun purchase, and I used the M9 for 24 years in the Navy as a sidearm on deployments and in service pistol matches When I didn’t use a 1911.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

You don't like Glock? Fair enough. Ask yourself WHY all those agencies carry them. Price is pretty nominal since most departments get a stupid large discount, and training for armorers. They all do that.
Ask yourself why every-single-maker wants to compare their new and revamped offerings to a Glock. They are all "Glock Killers", but none ever have.
Learn punctuation and stop repeating the G17 going full auto on the range BS. That story has been floating for decades.
Enjoy your favorite, but get off it.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

LostinTexas said:


> View attachment 20768
> 
> You don't like Glock? Fair enough. Ask yourself WHY all those agencies carry them. Price is pretty nominal since most departments get a stupid large discount, and training for armorers. They all do that.
> Ask yourself why every-single-maker wants to compare their new and revamped offerings to a Glock. They are all "Glock Killers", but none ever have.
> ...


I appreciate your stating my thoughts without the dreaded ad hominin BS. I could not have said it better!


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Like I said - I have owned 7 Sigs over the years. I personally think they are over priced for what they are.

Now - as for Beretta - yea, I've owned a ton of them. But the current Beretta makings are not up to the quality they used to be. Ever since they moved the plant to TN, they have left a lot to be desired. And their current customer service is in the toilet. I've read way too many stories of woe, even at the Beretta Forum. I do know that every brand an make lemons - but things have gotten out of hand for Beretta recently. And, this is coming from a Beretta fanatic.

I've also owned 11 HKs over the years - they make good stuff too. The Hk P2000 is my favorite of all HK handguns. 

And, as I said before - we all have our likes and dislikes. I've previously carried a G26 for many, many years - starting in the 1990s. I got one when they first came out... WHy? Because at the time, no other gun has such a rust proof finish. But, I never really liked that gun.

I've also had a Gen 4 Glock 17 that I used to use for USPSA. It shot very well, and I did pretty good with it. But, I didn't fall in love and shoot super well with Glocks until the 5th gen models came out. They won't win in the looks dept, but those 5th gen models are truly awesome guns. 

My very first handgun I ever bought was a Gen 2 Glock 17, and it was a lemon. Jammed all the time... But, I knew that wasn't typical... I later traded it in for a Glock 19, and that gun worked 100%. 

At some point, I've owned just about everything. Currently, there isn't even anything out gun wise that I wanna buy.. Believe it or not, the Sig 365 Spectre Comp did interest me a little, but it is WAY over priced. I'll stick with my 4" Shield Plus Performance Center. I can buy 2 of those and stll have money for ammo compared to that Spectre Comp...


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Granted, every pistol has subjective detractors, but I wanna say your Gen 1 G-17 was a lemon. Gen 1's were from the mid-eighties? I don't know about Gen 1 magazines, but my Gen 3 and 4 magazines are pretty near bulletproof, never had a floorplate issue.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

denner said:


> Granted, every pistol has subjective detractors, but I wanna say your Gen 1 G-17 was a lemon. Gen 1's were from the mid-eighties? I don't know about Gen 1 magazines, but my Gen 3 and 4 magazines are pretty near bulletproof, never had a floorplate issue.


I agree. With the 3rd gens and later, the magplates do not come off. In fact, the first time you try to get one off - unless you use a basepad removal tool for a Glock mag, they are a pain in the ass to remove the baseplates. It isn't coming off on its own.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> I agree. With the 3rd gens and later, the magplates do not come off. In fact, the first time you try to get one off - unless you use a basepad removal tool for a Glock mag, *they are a pain in the ass to remove the baseplates.* It isn't coming off on its own.


Pain in the ass is a gross understatement. Why they put those little tabs at the bottom of the magazine body is beyond me? They serve no useful purpose whatsoever. The button on the magazine floor plate holds the base plate in place just like most other magazines.

Magazines should be taken apart and cleaned occasionally. That chore should not be made difficult. You shouldn't have to buy a special tool to remove the base plate.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Arizona Desertman said:


> Pain in the ass is a gross understatement. Why they put those little tabs at the bottom of the magazine body is beyond me? They serve no useful purpose whatsoever. The button on the magazine floor plate holds the base plate in place just like most other magazines.
> 
> Magazines should be taken apart and cleaned occasionally. That chore should not be made difficult. You shouldn't have to buy a special tool to remove the base plate.


Yea, without the tool.. Even using plyers and other methods - that very first time is horrendous to get them off. I finally broke down and bought a cheap tool on Amazon for like $12 or so. 

Now, the +2 extensions used to come off VERY easily, if you bumped them. I do have 2 now, but they are on mags for a range toy. I am not sure how easy they come off (I don't carry the gun). And, back in the day - back when those early Glocks were around - I heard endless stories of them popping off. Maybe it was the +2 extensions the original poster was referring to. I'm not sure. 

I loved Glock mags when I was shooting USPSA. At the time, I shot USPSA at an indoor range, so it was concrete floors. You could drop mags that still had rounds in them, and they wouldn't bust a base plate like mags from Beretta and other brands often do on concrete.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> Yea, without the tool.. Even using plyers and other methods - that very first time is horrendous to get them off. I finally broke down and bought a cheap tool on Amazon for like $12 or so.
> 
> Now, the +2 extensions used to come off VERY easily, if you bumped them. I do have 2 now, but they are on mags for a range toy. I am not sure how easy they come off (I don't carry the gun). And, back in the day - back when those early Glocks were around - I heard endless stories of them popping off. Maybe it was the +2 extensions the original poster was referring to. I'm not sure.
> 
> I loved Glock mags when I was shooting USPSA. At the time, I shot USPSA at an indoor range, so it was concrete floors. You could drop mags that still had rounds in them, and they wouldn't bust a base plate like mags from Beretta and other brands often do on concrete.


I bought two tools from the Glockstore one that fits 9mm/40 magazines and one for the 45. Now they have much better tools. I definitely would have bought one of the other tools if they were available at the time. Glock Magazine Tool – Base plate removal tool (3 PACK). Mag Base Removal Tool for the Glock - HYVE Technologies Mag Claw Glock Base Plate Removal Tool The tools that I have are still a pain in the ass to use. They're designed to squeeze the magazine tabs in instead of popping the base plates off the tabs. I would place the tool around the magazine then place it in a vise tightening it down then use a punch to push in the button then remove the base plate. Once I got the base plate off I cut the tabs at the bottom of the magazine off. Now all I have to do is use a punch to push in the button to remove the base plate. 

I guess it's possible for the base plates to pop off if the magazine is dropped hence the presence of those tabs on the magazine body. But ever since I cut off those tabs and as hard as I tried I couldn't get mine to come off without pressing in the button. But then again I'm not a competitive shooter and have never dropped a magazine to the floor.

Since they already make extended Glock magazines I never saw a need for those +2 or more magazine extension kits.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

The mag tool I use doesn't squeeze the sides at all. 

I have this one: Amazon.com : NcSTAR VTGLMAG Magpopper Magazine Disassembly Tool, Glock : Sports & Outdoors

And, I looked - I didn't actually buy it on Amazon. I bought it somewhere else, and I think I paid a little less. But this one works well. I didn't feel like buying one of those $30+ tools.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> The mag tool I use doesn't squeeze the sides at all.
> 
> I have this one: Amazon.com : NcSTAR VTGLMAG Magpopper Magazine Disassembly Tool, Glock : Sports & Outdoors
> 
> And, I looked - I didn't actually buy it on Amazon. I bought it somewhere else, and I think I paid a little less. But this one works well. I didn't feel like buying one of those $30+ tools.


Those one's that I bought were pretty cheap, there's not much to them. About all I can say is that they're better than nothing which is not saying much. They don't seem to squeeze the tabs in far enough making it a struggle to get the base plates off. Actually they're a hit or a miss, sometimes they do work okay. I'd have to use them along with and in a vise. 

The style tool that you have is a much better mousetrap. I believe that there are a lot of different companies and distributers of that same style tool. Which obviously is a good thing. I went on line and those were the first one's that came up.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Arizona Desertman said:


> Those one's that I bought were pretty cheap, there's not much to them. About all I can say is that they're better than nothing which is not saying much. They don't seem to squeeze the tabs in far enough making it a struggle to get the base plates off. Actually they're a hit or a miss, sometimes they do work okay. I'd have to use them along with and in a vise.
> 
> The style tool that you have is a much better mousetrap. I believe that there are a lot of different companies and distributers of that same style tool. Which obviously is a good thing. I went on line and those were the first one's that came up.


Well, some of the official Glock pushers have high end aluminum ones of this style for $30-$40. I knew there had to be a cheaper alternative, and I found this one.

I had to replace a bunch of baseplates on my G17/34 mags because of my Taran Tactical John Wick Glock. With the magwell, I needed thicker base plates. So, I took off a bunch with this tool.

Months before then, I tried to put two +2 factory mag extensions on 2 mags. And, I had to use plyers and it was a nightmare getting those baseplates off. When I saw I would need to replace so many mag plates with extended (thicker) plates - I knew I wasn't going to go thru all that again. So, I bought the tool.


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## Arizona Desertman (10 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> Well, some of the official Glock pushers have high end aluminum ones of this style for $30-$40. I knew there had to be a cheaper alternative, and I found this one.
> 
> I had to replace a bunch of baseplates on my G17/34 mags because of my Taran Tactical John Wick Glock. With the magwell, I needed thicker base plates. So, I took off a bunch with this tool.
> 
> Months before then, I tried to put two +2 factory mag extensions on 2 mags. And, I had to use plyers and it was a nightmare getting those baseplates off. When I saw I would need to replace so many mag plates with extended (thicker) plates -* I knew I wasn't going to go thru all that again. So, I bought the tool.*


That's why I cut the tabs off whenever I had to take apart one of those magazines. I already replaced a lot of the plastic base plates with anodized aluminum one's. Now I've got a shit load of magazines that are already done. I remember when I bought my first Glock and saw those stupid little tabs. All that I could think of is what the f'k did they do that for? If they were going to do that they should have at least included a cheap tool to take the magazine apart. Or better yet just leave those f'n tabs off. No other manufacturer that I know of has them? You don't need any special tools to remove the base plates from those magazines. A nail, pall point pen, drill bit, an allen wrench etc. will do. That's about my only complaint about Glock's.


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## LostinTexas (Oct 1, 2018)

Shipwreck said:


> Now, the +2 extensions used to come off VERY easily, if you bumped them. I do have 2 now, but they are on mags for a range toy. I am not sure how easy they come off (I don't carry the gun). And, back in the day - back when those early Glocks were around - I heard endless stories of them popping off. Maybe it was the +2 extensions the original poster was referring to. I'm not sure.


Not sure what +2 you were/are running, but the ones I have aren't going anywhere. Later Gen magazines (3rd & 4th maybe) and newer Glock +2, but carry one regularly on a G23 and it has never moved. I just wish the +2 was a +2 for the 40.
Have an older one that came with the G22 from a competitive shooter. It was on a Gen1 magazine and has never moved either. It was sort of difficult when I took it off on purpose. No markings, so can't say what make it is.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

LostinTexas said:


> Not sure what +2 you were/are running, but the ones I have aren't going anywhere. Later Gen magazines (3rd & 4th maybe) and newer Glock +2, but carry one regularly on a G23 and it has never moved. I just wish the +2 was a +2 for the 40.
> Have an older one that came with the G22 from a competitive shooter. It was on a Gen1 magazine and has never moved either. It was sort of difficult when I took it off on purpose. No markings, so can't say what make it is.



I am talking about the +2 factory mag extensions. And, the mags have changed over time. I was referring to the early days of the +2 factory mag extensions. I knew several law enforcement officers (back in the day) that would bump the mag plate against walls and things as they walked around, and the base plates would come off. 

So, like I said - the +2 mag extensions have probably been redesigned since then. Not sure...


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

ebbiv said:


> Aside from boasting a higher magazine capacity then most back in the day, I think they're an inferior weapon when compared to Sig, HK, Smith, CZ, or just about any major player for that matter. I also speak from actually carrying one as a duty weapon for a short time. I personally don't really like any polymer framed weapon, they just feel cheap to me. I hated the grip and feel of my Glock 17, so right from the get go i was unhappy, then there was the bottom of the mag coming off while climbing through a window on a call, and then had anyone been laying wait, the sound of all the bullets falling out of the bottom of the gun would have made for a really unique alert. and the final straw was the weapon going full auto during training, for no know reason and did with no know warning. then fire normally, only to do it again when it apparently felt like it. If you have a first Gen then yes it can and does happen and any web search will return a ton of stories about it. I through it in the safe never to be used again, and went to a Sig P220 .45, which while there may be others that may be equally as well crafted, I've yet to find any off the shelf handguns that are better as a service weapon, and performed flawlessly for the rest of my career. Governmental agencies buy Glocks because they're dirt cheap, why do you think NYPD uses them? The FBI, etc. In Government you're almost guaranteed that most of your equipment is that which is provided by the lowest bidder, I'm just bored of Glock this Glock that, and opinions of every Tom Dick and Harry whos only experience is shooting one at the range her and there.  Anyone else feel the same? or have any solid evidence as to how a Glock is superior to any combat handgun? Just up for some friendly debate.


I actually removed my beloved G19 from the safe and holstered it up after trying out other options for a bit. Turns out it may be my favorite of my EDC options.
I know it will shoot accurately every time, it does not weigh much, and I do not have to be careful with it. Whether it is superior to any combat handgun is a matter of opinion. 
Apparently you are a battle hardened hero, what do you like to shoot bad guys with and why is it better than my G19?


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Shipwreck said:


> Like I said - I have owned 7 Sigs over the years. I personally think they are over priced for what they are.
> 
> Now - as for Beretta - yea, I've owned a ton of them. But the current Beretta makings are not up to the quality they used to be. Ever since they moved the plant to TN, they have left a lot to be desired. And their current customer service is in the toilet. I've read way too many stories of woe, even at the Beretta Forum. I do know that every brand an make lemons - but things have gotten out of hand for Beretta recently. And, this is coming from a Beretta fanatic.
> 
> ...


Awww come on, you know you want to start collecting the Hi Point pistol line...some of the best looking guns out there.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Shipwreck said:


> I agree. With the 3rd gens and later, the magplates do not come off. In fact, the first time you try to get one off - unless you use a basepad removal tool for a Glock mag, they are a pain in the ass to remove the baseplates. It isn't coming off on its own.


I had to buy one. Got tired of using a razor knife to cut those stupid tabs away!


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