# Do you own any NFA/Class III guns?



## Black Metal

Who Has One?


----------



## GTD

I don't know what a class III pemit is, so I voted know but I want one.:anim_lol:


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

I'd like some class III stuff, but I have no use for them. I don't need a suppressor for my .22LR or .45, and I don't need a fully automatic MP5 or M4 for HD. Not worth the six month wait and $200 stamp, at least not for me.


----------



## Mike Barham

What's a Class III "permit?" 

As I understand the process, you apply for a tax stamp for each NFA item. There's no "permit" like you'd get to carry a concealed pistol.

I don't have any NFA guns due to lack of interest in them.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

GTD said:


> I don't know what a class III pemit is, so I voted know but I want one.:anim_lol:


Class III stuff is regulated by the BATF. Hand grenades, supressors, fully auto weapons, shotguns with barrels shorter than 18", etc. Basically they're consider much more dangerous than standard firearms, so they have to do a full-blown background check on you, you have to get fingerprints and a sheriff signature, and so on. It's complicated and expensive.


----------



## GTD

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Class III stuff is regulated by the BATF. Hand grenades, supressors, fully auto weapons, shotguns with barrels shorter than 18", etc. Basically they're consider much more dangerous than standard firearms, so they have to do a full-blown background check on you, you have to get fingerprints and a sheriff signature, and so on. It's complicated and expensive.


Way out of my league!


----------



## Black Metal

Mike Barham said:


> What's a Class III "permit?"
> 
> As I understand the process, you apply for a tax stamp for each NFA item. There's no "permit" like you'd get to carry a concealed pistol.
> 
> I don't have any NFA guns due to lack of interest in them.


Well I was told by an Impact guns (yes I realize they don't know everything but seeing as they have a class III section on their website...) that in Utah you can get a "class III permit" that would allow you to purchase fully automatic weapons as well as short barrel rifles ( rifles, shotguns, ect with a barrel shorter then 18") and suppressors. I was curious to see what other states have similar laws and who had any info about the subject.


----------



## Dr.K

As stated previously, not a permit. But, I do have an ATF form 1, filled out and stamped that goes with my homeade suppressor.

A form 4 would be required to buy a premade full auto/suppressor/short barreled rifle or shotgun.

There fun, but my suppressor only cost me the price of the stamp. $200.

Everything else I had to make it.


----------



## Black Metal

Found this on their site guess i should have looked a little harded before starting a thread :mrgreen:

Machine Guns-- Legalities of Ownership 
It is a common misconception that machine guns cannot be owned by law-abiding citizens. This comes from the creation of a variety of confusing laws that have made purchasing a full-auto gun more difficult than purchasing a "normal" gun. But, you can comply with the law and own a machine gun.

First a little history: In May of 1986, certain laws went into effect that made it illegal for 'civilians' to own fully automatic firearms that were manufactured AFTER THAT DATE. Most fully automatic weapons manufactured and registered BEFORE MAY, 1986, MAY BE OWNED BY AND SOLD TO INDIVIDUALS. The full-auto guns that may be owned by individuals are called 'transferable'. Some states DO NOT allow machine gun ownership at all, no matter when the gun was made, but most states do.

To purchase a transferable machine gun, you must meet certain requirements (generally the same as when you purchase another gun), fill out special paperwork (called a 'form 4'), and pay a $200, one-time, transfer tax. Every time a machine gun is transferred, the $200 tax must be paid-- usually by the purchaser. The steps to take to purchase a transferable machine gun are:

Find a dealer locally who can assist you in all phases of the transfer. This should go beyond helping you fill out the paperwork: they should help you locate the gun if it isn't in stock and allow you to shoot the gun while your paperwork is being processed by the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms). It will usually take 4-6 weeks for the dealer to get the gun from another dealer if they don't already have it in stock (due to BATF paperwork delays). 
Get your fingerprints (either by a police dept. or by a qualified fingerprinter, two imprints are needed) and two passport sized pictures taken. These will be used to perform a comprehensive criminal background check on you. 
Have your local dealer help you fill out an "Application for Tax Paid Transfer And Registration Of Firearm" for, known as a "form 4". 
You must have the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement (CLEO) officer that has jurisdiction over the municipality in which you live on the form 4. This could be the City Chief or the County Sheriff, for example. This is usually not a problem-- in machine gun friendly states. The form 4, CLEO signature, 2 fingerprint cards, 2 pictures, and a $200 check (your one-time transfer tax) must all be mailed to the BATF and an approved tax stamp returned before you may take possession of the gun. This may take anywhere from 2 to 5 months. 
Although it may seem complicated, we are happy to help you through every step in the process. We have transferable guns in stock, and if we don't have it, we can tap into a network of dealers in other states to find it for you. Let us help you get the full-auto gun that you've always wanted-- they are worth it!


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> you apply for a tax stamp for each NFA item. There's no "permit" like you'd get to carry a concealed pistol.


That's correct. Basically if I wanted a 10-pack of hand grenades, I would need a $200 tax stamp for each one of them. It's a one-time fee for any NFA class III item that's non transferrable, but you have to get the stamp for *each* item. If you want four shotguns with 14" barrels, you have to get four $200 tax stamps, and that stamp has to accompany the particular item for as long as you have it.



Drew_Rami_P said:


> Well I was told by an Impact guns (yes I realize they don't know everything but seeing as they have a class III section on their website...) that in Utah you can get a "class III permit" that would allow you to purchase fully automatic weapons as well as short barrel rifles ( rifles, shotguns, ect with a barrel shorter then 18") and suppressors. I was curious to see what other states have similar laws and who had any info about the subject.


That's true for dealers...class III dealers can purchase class III items, but for an individual to get one of the items, they have to deal with the tax stamp stuff. Most upper-level LEO agencies have the permit so they can issue 14" barreled shotguns and full-auto SMGs and assault rifles to their teams and/or officers, but the agency still owns them. An officer can't buy one for personal use unless he gets the $200 tax stamp.

In all honesty, unless you have a legitimate use for a class III weapon, it's too expensive and time-consuming to bother. I wouldn't mind having a Glock 18 though (full-auto Glock 17).


----------



## Todd

No interest, especially full-auto. I can barley afford to shoot now, no need to spit 30+ rounds down range in a couple seconds. I might as well toss money in the toilet. :mrgreen:


----------



## Mike Barham

As we like to say at Galco, full-autos are the best way in the world to turn dollars into noise.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

One-shot-at-a-time accuracy vastly increases your apparent ammunition supply.
Full-auto is not a viable replacement for well-practiced competence.


----------



## Baldy

I like them but I could never pay for the ammo bill.:mrgreen:


----------



## submoa

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I don't need a suppressor for my .22LR or .45,


Please to explain your P22 with threaded barrel.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

submoa said:


> Please to explain your P22 with threaded barrel.


[clearing my throat]...for those of you that recall, when I first joined the forum I was dead set on a suppressor for my P22. Things have changed in the passing months, but not before I bought a threaded barrel end for the suppressor to be attached.

In all actuality, it's $32 I'd like to have back, but it's too late to send it back in for a refund. Oh well, lesson learned. Don't buy a threaded barrel end until you actually have the suppressor.


----------



## rfawcs

If you want further information on firearms and items covered by the NFA, here are a few good places to start

http://www.titleii.com/old_index.html

http://www.silencertests.com/

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/


----------



## zhurdan

I'd love to own a Class III. In particular, an MP5. They are a pretty fun little gun to shoot (I shoot them from time to time) and relatively inexpensive to shoot being 9mm. 

I have on the other hand been bitten by the SBR bug. I am currently in process for an SBR and suppressor for my PS90. There is absolutely no need for it, other than I could afford it and I think it'd be cool as all get out! I'd also like to get my FAL shortened to 14", but that's a ways down the road. I've got bolt guns to reach out there, so I think it'd be fun to either SBR that .308, or buy a SCAR-H when they come out.

As an aside, there are a couple of guys at Impact that are pretty knowledgeable, I have spoken with them quite a bit in person, and they are usually more than willing to spend an hour BSing about NFA stuff. 

There is little need for full auto other than the smile factor it gives you.

Zhur


----------



## rfawcs

zhurdan said:


> (snip)
> 
> I have on the other hand been bitten by the SBR bug. I am currently in process for an SBR and suppressor for my PS90. There is absolutely no need for it, other than I could afford it and I think it'd be cool as all get out! I'd also like to get my FAL shortened to 14", but that's a ways down the road. I've got bolt guns to reach out there, so I think it'd be fun to either SBR that .308, or buy a SCAR-H when they come out.
> 
> (snip)
> There is little need for full auto other than the smile factor it gives you.
> 
> Zhur


Be careful what you ask for. I have an HK-51 (NATO .308) with a full-auto sear; it has an 8-inch barrel and the muzzle blast and pressure waves are absolutely tremendous. I also have an AR-15 SBR with an 11-1/2 inch barrel, it's much, much easier on your ears and your fellow shooters.

Ditto on the smile factor!


----------



## Old Padawan

fivehourfrenzy said:


> In all honesty, unless you have a legitimate use for a class III weapon, it's too expensive and time-consuming to bother. I wouldn't mind having a Glock 18 though (full-auto Glock 17).


Legitimate reason? This from a guy who owns throwing stars? 
They are fun. That's a good enough reason. It is expensive, but you really need to experience a brass rainbow from a Mac. 
Its also a lot of fun to shoot your suppressed .22 for a couple of hours with no hearing protection.


----------



## zhurdan

Old Padawan said:


> Legitimate reason? This from a guy who owns throwing stars?


Ohhhh my stomach hurts now..... hahahahhahhaahaaaaa

Sorry, but that is fraking funny right there!:anim_lol:


----------



## Black Metal

Old Padawan said:


> Legitimate reason? This from a guy who owns throwing stars?


Shhhh! I think he's a ninja :numbchuck:


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

Drew_Rami_P said:


> Shhhh! I think he's a ninja :numbchuck:


Um...yeah, I'm a ninja, but I'm not supposed to talk about it. The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


----------



## Old Padawan

Hey FHF, my nephew may want to buy that barrel from you.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Um...yeah, I'm a ninja, but I'm not supposed to talk about it. The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


But...but you _did_ just talk about it.
Does that mean that you are no longer a Ninja and in Fight Club, so you _can_ talk about it?
Or, you are still a Ninja, and still in Fight Club, so you _can't_ talk about it?
Are we getting a little self-referential and circular, here?

:smt033


----------



## submoa

rfawcs said:


> Be careful what you ask for. I have an HK-51 (NATO .308) with a full-auto sear;


We shot a few captured FALs in the Falklands full auto. They were more useful for anti-aircraft than battle rifle.


----------



## Black Metal

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Um...yeah, I'm a ninja, but I'm not supposed to talk about it. The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


I must say Fhf you catch alot of crap on here and usually take it very well :smt023


----------



## wiseguy

They aren't allowed in WA :smt022 ...I remember reading something somewhere....something about "right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"....forget exactly where that was...must've been some magazine or somethin....couldn't have been too important...


----------



## rfawcs

submoa said:


> We shot a few captured FALs in the Falklands full auto. They were more useful for anti-aircraft than battle rifle.


Yeah, after three or four rounds, you're off the target, I don't care how strong you are. I have a vertical grip on the front to help control it, but even tho it's gas operated, it's still too much recoil. You would need at least a bipod to have a chance, and that would look pretty goofy with that short a barrel.

OTOH, the rate of fire is 600 RPM, so even tho it doesn't have a burst option, with a little practice it's pretty easy to put out 2, 3, or 4 rounds at a time.

Still, it's very hard to earase the grin after you dump a mag


----------



## PanaDP

The last time I went shooting at my Dad's (in Ogden, UT) a guy was shooting one of these at the range section next to the public one:










It was mounted in a trailer he had specially built for it.

Utah rocks.


----------



## fivehourfrenzy

Old Padawan said:


> Hey FHF, my nephew may want to buy that barrel from you.


$20 plus shipping and it's his. It's not the whole barrel, just the little screw-off attachment at the end. I have no need for it, and I'd rather have some money back. PM me about it.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> But...but you _did_ just talk about it.
> Does that mean that you are no longer a Ninja and in Fight Club, so you _can_ talk about it?
> Or, you are still a Ninja, and still in Fight Club, so you _can't_ talk about it?
> Are we getting a little self-referential and circular, here?
> 
> :smt033


Well see I'm a ninja, and I'm not supposed to tell anyone. But I made an exception for the wonderful handgunforum.net. I am not in Fight Club...it was an analogy. If I was in Fight Club, my ninja instincts would kick on and I would cut everyone's head off because that's what ninjas do. You can check it out here: www.realultimatepower.net. :mrgreen:



Drew_Rami_P said:


> I must say Fhf you catch alot of crap on here and usually take it very well :smt023


Yeah I roll with the punches. As a ninja, you need to let things go and not always resort to cutting people's heads off when they talk smack, because eventually there would be nobody left but me, and then my ninja skills are no longer needed.


----------



## submoa




----------



## fivehourfrenzy

submoa said:


>


Lol...not only did you just get lit up with an AR, you got lit up with a pink hello kitty AR. Probably even has a velvet-lined barrel.


----------



## p99guy

On the previous subject of hand grenades, they are classified as "Destructive Devices", a different classification than a machinegun, short barreled rifle, or AOW= any other weapon, which a lot of shortened/tax stamped shotguns come under.

A NFA dealer/ SOT taxpayer that is licensenzed to sell full auto firearms, has to actually get another license to deal in Destructive devices(and of course its an extra yearly fee he has to pay on top of the $500 a year for the special occupational tax he has to pay for the NFA dealer license, which of course you have to hold a type 01 FFL before you can add the NFA)

A citizen buying a transfereable machinegun/suppressor/SBR/AOW from the NFA dealer just has to do a one time $200 transfer tax on it and gets a tax stamp on his approved form 4.

I had a 01 FFL for 12 years, and 9 of it I was a NFA dealer. I still own suppressors and a SBR, but no full auto(my last one was a M4) I just cant afford the cost to buy one these days....that same M4 I had would cost me about $18,000.00 right now suppressor on the other hand are still affordable and practical. There is hardly anything more practical on the farm than a suppressed 10/22. you dont hurt your ears, or scare the livestock, or annoy your neibors.

remember, suppressors were only included in the gun control act of 1934 because of poaching....it was the deppession after all and folks were often hungry. It wasnt because they are any more sinister or evil than the "silencer" on your car, lawn mower, motor bike. In europe, gun control freaks that they are...suppressors are still everyday items and not looked upon as anything strange at all. I have to blame movies more than anything else here for teaching(brain washing) people that suppressors are evil and only used by very bad men. All the ganster movies done the same for the full auto.


----------



## Marcus99

I'd like to one day get a permit that allows me to have a silencer for my P99. I know they sell threaded barrels for it and I have seen a few silencers sold online as well as one at a gun show. P99 would look pretty cool with a silencer too


----------



## p99guy

Its not a permit...its a Tax Stamp

Here is what a ATF Form 1 with affixed tax stamp looks like...this Form 1 is permission to make a short barreled rifle, and the same form would be used if making a suppressor as well. A form 4 looks very simular and would be the one used if buying a transferable factory made suppressor, SBR, and full auto.


----------



## zhurdan

Just got my Form 4 back last Friday.










Zhur


----------



## Kyle1337

Zhur........damn!


----------



## zhurdan

I am completely giddy about the new suppressor. Here's a little video I made for some friends of mine to show the difference in sound. Enjoy.

Zhur


----------



## DevilsJohnson

I had heard that getting a Class III that you open yourself up to allowing a search of your property at any time..what's the story on that?


----------



## zhurdan

You are subject to review of your paperwork and the firearm in question ONLY. They can't come in and just search your house, you have to produce the weapon when asked but you don't have to submit your home to search.

That's how I understand it.

Zhur


----------



## DevilsJohnson

That would make a lot more sense. but we are talking about the government. Even if you are right and you may well be. I'm sure that if they thought they could get away with it they would toss the house.

I would imagine that it would make it a lot easier to get a full search warrant too being they tell a judge "Hey, This guy has a class III and a registered full auto bla-bla..With a suppressor!" Judge Hillary says "Go get em.. Janet Reno Style!!":buttkick:


----------



## GBS1989

rfawcs, Have u by any chance taken that HK51 to a machine gun shoot that was in Brownsville, PA but was shut down a few years ago? I remember a short barrel HK51 being there that I thought was pretty cool.


----------



## rfawcs

No, sorry, wasn't me. I haven't had any of my stuff out of state yet.


----------



## PT92MJ

I do not own any class III weapons and don't plan on buying any. First, as someone stated, they are useless for HD unless you plan on using in a SHTF scenario. Second, the ammo is too expensvie for the weapon to be used as a plinking or target practice gun. And third, unless I come into an unexpected windfall, I can't afford one anyway. As for suppressors or other NFA products, I have no rifles or pistols that are currently configured for suppressors and like the guns themselves, too expensive for my taste as I have no use for them.


----------



## thelonerang3r

I would love to have one. I recently had the oppurtunity to hit the range with a military collector and he let me shoot his WWII Thompson. I'm smiling just thinking about it. I think it's possible to get around the background check by setting up a trust as owner. A trust is a corporate entity and cannot have a criminal background, that is, if I read the legaleze right. Now all I need is to hit the lottery or be a good boy and hope Santa brings me one:smt114


----------

