# About ready for a Glock



## jdatbs77 (Jun 26, 2012)

Hello all,

I was a policeman in another life, long ago, and was around when we started making the change from revolvers to semiautos. I kinda kept my penchant for revolvers, so my gun collection here is a mix of a .357 snubbie, .44 mag 7", and then I decided to start experimenting with the semi's, so here goes: Walther .22 cal. P22; HK P2000 9mm; HK USP .45 acp; Springfield Armory MilSpec M1911; Springfield Armory XD .45 acp; Smith & Wesson M & P .45 full size. 

Notice there's no Glock in there. I am looking for the "perfect handgun." I know what's perfect for me won't be perfect for everyone or maybe not even anyone, but here goes.

I really like the short trigger pull and short reset on the 1911. I don't like having to carry it around "cocked and locked." 

The actions on the HK USP and the XD are smooth, but you give up some distance on the pull and reset. 

The M & P is kinda weird. There's no reset. And the trigger pull, while relatively short (It's about a quarter inch), is up around 11 lbs.

I'm considering two things: first, I'm gonna try a Glock, now that I've gone through the HK, S&W, XD, and 1911. But second, I'm considering the .40 cal. version. So my question is: Am I giving up any stopping power by going from the .45 acp to the .40 S&W?

My other question: Anyone have experience with comparisons between the Glock and the others I've listed?

Hope I'm in the right place here....feel free to redirect me if I'm lost!!!

Thanks,

Jim


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## onalandline (Jan 8, 2010)

My own opinion: The .40 is plenty of stopping power. I have a G27 (subcompact .40) and G19 (compact 9mm). If you want the .40, I'd go with the G23 (compact) since it holds enough rounds and is still concealable. I do not have experience with the others you list.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

I don't think the .40 or the .45 has a lock on quick stops, so if you can place the bullet well, either should do the job. You'll get a bit larger bullet with the .45, of course, and that's important to some folks; on the other hand, you'll get a few more shots in the mag (maybe more that a few more) with the .40, and I've never heard of anyone complaining after a gunfight that they wished they had LESS ammo. The .40 recoil is bit more snappy that a .45 in similar-sized/weighted guns, but there are very few directly comparable .40 and .45 weapons, as they normally are built on different frames, so the usually smaller and lighter .40 guns win this round, too.

If you plan on ever carrying it concealed, then onalandline's suggestion of the G23 (above) is a good choice. For open carry or range use, or if your hands are fairly large, the full-size G22 may be a better pick. The new Gen4 Glocks in .40 are working just fine, and the dual-spring recoil assembly does reduce a little bit of the bounce over the older Gen3 single-spring guns. I bought a Gen4 full-size .40 not too long ago, and right now it's shooting better than one of my match-ready Glock 34 9mm long-slides, which is kind of annoying. Be prepared for a slightly boxy feel to the Glock grip; if you shoot it regularly, your hand and mind will adapt and you'll never think about it after the first month or so.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

jdatbs77 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I was a policeman in another life, long ago, and was around when we started making the change from revolvers to semiautos. I kinda kept my penchant for revolvers, so my gun collection here is a mix of a .357 snubbie, .44 mag 7", and then I decided to start experimenting with the semi's, so here goes: Walther .22 cal. P22; HK P2000 9mm; HK USP .45 acp; Springfield Armory MilSpec M1911; Springfield Armory XD .45 acp; Smith & Wesson M & P .45 full size.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the problem with gun enthusiasts everywhere. Always searching for that perfect gun. I've certainly been there (could say I still am), so I know your plight.

*"The M & P is kinda weird. There's no reset. And the trigger pull, while relatively short (It's about a quarter inch), is up around 11 lbs."
*

The M&P does have a reset but it's negligible in feel and sound. There is a kit available from Apex Tactical to remedy this. The trigger pull of the M&P is longer than 1/4" (more like 1/2") and for some reason, the .45ACP versions do have a higher weight trigger on them. I have a .45 M&P with the 4" barrel and the stock trigger came in at around 8.5 pounds. I installed the Apex DCAEK (kit) and kept the stock trigger spring instead of using the spring that came with the kit. This returns a measured weight of 5 pounds with a very crisp break.

I have three gen3 .40S&W Glocks: a G27 and two G23's. I have modded all of them with the two G23's receiving identical mods and more than the G27. These are fine guns. If you have larger hands, you may find the G22 to be your better choice. As for the .40S&W vs .45ACP, you'll find a host of opinions and "facts" out there, but most will confirm that the .40 in its top quality defense loads is every bit the match of the .45ACP. One load in particular tends to shine the best; the Federal HST in either 165gr or 180gr. There is also an excellent load made by Gold Dot in 165gr. The number is 53970. Both of these loads are Law Enforcement loads but you can find them at major gun shows or online.

As for experience between the Glock, the M&P, and the XD yes, I have experience with all of these. I have three M&P's and an XD40. I'm not a big fan of the XD because of its grip angle and the fact that it has a higher bore axis than I like. It is a very nice carry gun so my thoughts on it are personal opinion only. The M&P has the best grip feel of the three in stock trim and seems to tame the .40's recoil the best.... if you are recoil sensitive. The magazines for the M&P have somewhat weaker lower quality springs (take one apart and examine it), and can be harder to load the first round. The Glock (mine are all gen3) has the lowest bore axis of these three companies which works well for me. The stock, basic sights leave much to be desired so quality after market sights are your best bet. I have Trijicon GL01's on my G23's and my G19 and love them. They let just the right amount of light around the front post to the rear aperture and are low profile and snag-free. The Glock magazine is a thing of beauty. The Glock is the only one of these three than uses polygonal rifling (this increases velocity and makes cleaning easier).

As for some other factors, of these three guns, the Glock has the longest tract record of reliability and durability, and it just works. I am not a strongly biased gun owner. I appreciate a number of different offerings so I am not singing the praises of Gaston's "plastic fantastic". But facts are facts and the Glock is a proven design. It is simple (I think it has only 34 parts), easy to repair by yourself, simple do detail strip, easy to mod, and inexpensive to operate.

Any one of the three guns I have talked about would be a fine choice. As I said, I can't speak too much about the XD, but I can about the M&P and the Glock. M&P has a few quirks I have run into at the range (I have put around 2000 rounds through my 2011 M&P 9mm Pro Series). Two weeks ago, while doing the "Dot Torture Test" drill, this M&P failed to hold the slide back around six times, and twice ran the slide into full battery on its own when I did a speed reload. This just does not happen with my G23's or my G19. I love the way this M&P shoots and handles, but over the past two+ weeks, I made a few changes to my G23's and my G19. The aforementioned Trijicon sights to replace factory night sights and after market Warren Tacticals and all now sport the Pierce magazine extension. This has made a nice improvement for me with these three Glocks and next week I'm going to concentrate one two of them to see how they really respond.

Lastly, all of my Glocks, especially the three I have talked about here, have received trigger mods by me. They all come in now between 4 pounds 14 ounces to 5 pounds 2 ounces with very noticeable audible and felt resets. You can make the trigger better on Glocks.

Hope all of my rambling helps you.


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## chessail77 (Mar 15, 2011)

I noticed that there were no Sigs listed might want to take a look at the SP2022 in .40...excellent [email protected] a reasonable price.....JJ


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## jdatbs77 (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks guys, exp. SouthernBoy...at least I feel better about going to the Glock. And I will look into the Sig...they seem popular, not sure why I haven't done it so far. Now I have to figure out which of these I can purchase here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia....


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## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

jdatbs77 said:


> . . . at least I feel better about going to the Glock . . .


Lots of great info above. I have nothing to add, except I'm so sorry you are apparently determined to "go over to the dark side".



jdatbs77 said:


> . . . Now I have to figure out which of these I can purchase here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia....


I have nothing to add to this either, except I'm so sorry you apparently haven't been able to escape as yet. :smt1099


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

DanP_from_AZ said:


> Lots of great info above. I have nothing to add, except I'm so sorry you are apparently determined to "go over to the dark side".
> 
> I have nothing to add to this either, except I'm so sorry you apparently haven't been able to escape as yet. :smt1099


I agree.....I think he should try out a Beretta 96.......just sayin..


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## FNISHR (Aug 9, 2011)

I have several semi's besides my Glocks and like them all. I'm just not a .40 cal guy. My G17 is a very pleasant weapon. When I'm in a larger caliber mood, but still feeling like a Glock, there's always my G21.


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## jdatbs77 (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks for the comments. And I'm still planning my escape.
I will explore any weapons recommended on this thread. I'm open minded about the next gun. Or guns. I'm gonna look into the Sig SP2022 and the Beretta 96, although I am slowly coming to the realization that I have a closet full of 45 acp so why am I thinking of .40??? Are the .40 S&W's any cheaper than the acp's?


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Yes, when comparing standard (nothing exotic) .40 and .45 ammo of the same brand and bullet style, the .40 will always be cheaper. Depending on where you get it, .40 might be 20%-25% less expensive (again, for comparable loads).


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

jdatbs77 said:


> Thanks for the comments. And I'm still planning my escape.
> I will explore any weapons recommended on this thread. I'm open minded about the next gun. Or guns. I'm gonna look into the Sig SP2022 and the Beretta 96, although I am slowly coming to the realization that I have a closet full of 45 acp so why am I thinking of .40??? Are the .40 S&W's any cheaper than the acp's?


Take your time and try to handle and consider as many different candidate guns as you can. Stick with quality... don't short yourself there. Next is to try to rent your candidates at a range, or go to a range with friends who have copies of them, so you can fire your choices to see how good the match is between you and your choices.

Research as much as you can to learn about the little nuances and quirks of your candidate guns. I mentioned a few above. If a particular gun is ammo-sensitive or has a tendency to fail to feed certain types of ammunition, that may be one to avoid.

Another thing a lot of folks overlook until they own and have shoot a gun is how easy it is to disassemble to clean? Some guns have really strange disassembly steps you have to follow. Also, some guns have more blowby gases which dirties up the internal workings and magazine followers. Is the slide stop easy to reach and easy to release or is it hard? What about the magazine release? Is it also easy to reach? Does it protrude too much beyond the gun's frame? Is there an external safety and do you want one? Does the magazine drop free with some force when the release is pressed? Is there a magazine disconnect safety and do you want that? Are the sights snag-free? Can you acquire a good sight picture quickly and consistently? What about the gun's weight? Is it too much for daily carry? Is the gun a "natural pointer"?

I could go on but you get the picture. Lots of things to consider before laying down your money.


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## jdatbs77 (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks. You mention a few things I haven't considered...thanks! I am pretty sure I want to stick with the internal type firing mechanism...no exposed hammers. So that seems to eliminate a lot of weapons right off the bat. I'm going to look into those modifications that you mentioned earlier for my M&P. I really like the gun generally, just don't like that scratchy trigger with no reset. And I think I'm going to go with the Glock 21. It's comparable to most of my other handguns right now so it'll be easier to compare. I'll keep you posted...thanks again. I appreciate all the info!!!
Jim


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Sounds like you are on a similar path to what I took, when I started buying self-defense type pistols. The 1911 is hard to beat, but like you, I don't really prefer 'cocked and locked.' I have carried that way, and it doesn't bother me, but I still seem to gravitate towards striker fired pistols for SD. I prefer the XD45 Compact over anything I've tried so far. I like Glocks OK, have a G20, and I shoot them at least as well as anything else, but they just aren't that 'comfortable' to me.

Don't overlook the CZ-75 variants, if you are considering SA/DA (like the Sigs). I've found nothing more accurate, and they compare very well with the more expensive Sigs.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

onalandline said:


> My own opinion: The .40 is plenty of stopping power. I have a G27 (subcompact .40) and G19 (compact 9mm). If you want the .40, I'd go with the G23 (compact) since it holds enough rounds and is still concealable. I do not have experience with the others you list.


I have these same two weapons. I carry my G27 on the ankle, and the G23 on my right hip.

When seated, especially when belted in, in a car, the hip mounted weapon is largely inaccessible, but the ankle rig is very accessible.

When standing, the ankle rig is slow to access and puts your in a vulnerable position when drawing it.

I find that on the hip, the G23 rides better. The longer barrel keeps the butt of the gun closer to the body. The weight differential is minor.

I prefer the .40 over the 9mm, but size wise they are identical. The 9mm has less recoil, carries more rounds, and costs less to shoot.

The .40 is a more effective round in my opinion (and in the opinion of most police departments). How many are switching from .40 to 9mm? How many are switching from 9mm to .40?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Packard said:


> The .40 is a more effective round in my opinion (and in the opinion of most police departments). How many are switching from .40 to 9mm? * How many are switching from 9mm to .40?*


You'd be surprised. There are also departments going from the .40 to the .45 as well.


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## Packard (Aug 24, 2010)

VAMarine said:


> You'd be surprised. There are also departments going from the .40 to the .45 as well.


That does not surprise me. The .45 is the most proven round in the world. More people have been knocked down and killed with the .45 than any other. I would call it a tie with the .357 magnum, but the .45 is much easier to shoot well.

But it would surprise me if a department went from a .45 or a .40 or a .357 Sig to a 9mm.

The 9mm is easier to shoot, but police get more training time and should be able to handle the heavier rounds. Plus it is their life they are putting on the line. They are the equivalent of firemen running into burning houses.

Cops run towards crimes in process.

If I were a cop I'd want plenty of gun and a good vest.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Packard said:


> That does not surprise me. The .45 is the most proven round in the world. More people have been knocked down and killed with the .45 than any other. I would call it a tie with the .357 magnum, but the .45 is much easier to shoot well.
> 
> But it would surprise me if a department went from a .45 or a .40 or a .357 Sig to a 9mm.
> 
> ...


According to who?

Twice annual qualification is the norm.

As for "down grading"

St Paul PD
Wichita PD
Indiana State Police
Miami PD

All have gone back to the 9mm. There's a good number of departments that never left.

Then you have the likes of this:

Why Rob Pincus now prefers the 9mm over .40 S&W...
And this:

Interesting read by Mas....


> The 9mm is the most popular round. The spokesperson for training said, "A number of our officers have found they can hit center faster, with more bullets, with the 9mm," continuing, "We've also had a number of the older officers go to the 9mm after issues such as arthritis made it more comfortable for them, and easier for them to run with speed and accuracy."


I'm sure there's more out there, just doesn't always "make the news"


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

I do not have your experience level in a professional matter.I did come across this book which I just ordered.I will provide a link so you can make up your own mind.This is written by 2 men with a long LEO experience level.They are Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow,The book is Handgun Stopping Power-A definitive Study.All data is taken from real world situations.There are 3 pages of aknowledgements to people of a professional level.What surprised me was that a .357 federal in 125gr JHP had a 96.96 % of a one shot stopping,Its percentage was above all in the study.I feel this is a good addition to my library.Hope you enjoy.

Amazon.com: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study (9780873646536): Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow: Books


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

skullfr said:


> I do not have your experience level in a professional matter.I did come across this book which I just ordered.I will provide a link so you can make up your own mind.This is written by 2 men with a long LEO experience level.They are Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow,The book is Handgun Stopping Power-A definitive Study.All data is taken from real world situations.There are 3 pages of aknowledgements to people of a professional level.What surprised me was that a .357 federal in 125gr JHP had a 96.96 % of a one shot stopping,Its percentage was above all in the study.I feel this is a good addition to my library.Hope you enjoy.
> 
> Amazon.com: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study (9780873646536): Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow: Books


The issue with that study is that they only looked at shootings where one shot was fired. When you look at any kind of attributing circumstances to what actually transpired at a given shooting, the details are pretty limited.

I'm not saying that the .357 Magnum is a poor choice, only that the listed reference should not be used as a sole source of data.

There are some other issues associated with their works (Marshall and Sanow) that call into question the works, that however is topic for another thread.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

I remember the auto transition,we were a little late in the game where I am though.I've always liked the 45 myself but the 40 will serve you well if it's what you want.I just find the loudness and snappiness a waste of time.

Have you considered the Walther PPQ?I hear alot of good about it with a short reset on par with a good 1911.I think reset is a little overrated for the most part.While some are just awefully long,something up to maybe 1/8" isn't going to bother me.Revolvers are insane on reset but Jerry Mickulek seems fine with it,autos are a walk in the park.There also comes a point that the reset is so short that bump firing can set in easy if you're really getting down with it.Bump firing is when you come off the trigger for a real fast doubletap and the jump from lockup has you tripping the trigger again.Happens with real nice 1911 triggers at times.

Having said that,have you varied the HK trigger?I don't know what can be done with the P2000,but the USP can really be tuned up.Alot like the hybrid light LEM but I haven't tried one yet.Bruce Grey isn't cheap but he does wonders with HK triggers,part of that cost though is having the internal parts recoated with NP3 after he polishes off the original Dow coating.The Match trigger setup is nice,mine isn't broke in yet but it's nice and I love 1911s.I don't know if the reset point is changed,but technically it is a little shorter because the trigger stop eliminates overtravel from the stroke.The Match trigger doesn't drop in a USP compact but you can install the stop screw in the original trigger to come up with a full match conversion.Mine will probably settle in about 4.5lbs when smoothed out,then I may try the light LEM to ditch the DA pull from the equasion.I can deal with the DA but I prefer not to on the larger guns.

Good luck.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

VAMarine,I dont rely on just charts or data but found thier results surprising.I ordered the book because of reading the excerpt of the mechanics of collapse.In these days of so much bad info.I was trying to find what I thought was commonsense mechanics of the body.I am no dr and thought what the sample sounded reasonable.I even look at some of the medical studies but some of it is above my head.I by no means want to put out bad info,but it is so hard to get real reliable info.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

skullfr said:


> VAMarine,I dont rely on just charts or data but found thier results surprising.I ordered the book because of reading the excerpt of the mechanics of collapse.In these days of so much bad info.I was trying to find what I thought was commonsense mechanics of the body.I am no dr and thought what the sample sounded reasonable.I even look at some of the medical studies but some of it is above my head.I by no means want to put out bad info,but it is so hard to get real reliable info.


No doubt, but for the longest time these works were treated as Gospel despite painting an incomplete picture of shootings. 
My commentary above was more for those reading rather than for you directly.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

As for that gritty scratchy trigger with M&P's, there's a very simple remedy for that. Apex Tactical offers a highly polished item they market as their USB (Ultimate Safety Block). Install this and that grittiness will completely disappear. All three of my M&P's have this installed (I did two of them). Apex has other items you may be interested in for your M&P.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

skullfr said:


> I do not have your experience level in a professional matter.I did come across this book which I just ordered.I will provide a link so you can make up your own mind.This is written by 2 men with a long LEO experience level.They are Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow,The book is Handgun Stopping Power-A definitive Study.All data is taken from real world situations.There are 3 pages of aknowledgements to people of a professional level.What surprised me was that a .357 federal in 125gr JHP had a 96.96 % of a one shot stopping,Its percentage was above all in the study.I feel this is a good addition to my library.Hope you enjoy.
> 
> Amazon.com: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study (9780873646536): Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow: Books


The first of the tri-series of these works came out in the 90's. I have all three. Like anything else, you must keep an open mind when reading any study. In one of their books, the Federal Hydra-Shok .40S&W (I believe in 180gr) was reported to have 96% one shot stops. That load has since taken a back seat to the better Federal HST load.

The thing is, none of this is static, loads or results. It's all very dynamic. So the best you can do is assimilate as much info on the subject as you can in an effort to aid you in taking good decisions in caliber selection and load choices for self defense.


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## jdatbs77 (Jun 26, 2012)

I guess you could say I'm "impressionable." I used to carry the P2000 9mm pretty confidently. Then I spoke with a policeman in Pomona. He was a motor officer, and was injured in a crash, so he was housebound. He had a neighbor who was just a humongous a-hole. Well, his neighbor got really drunk, or stoned, or a combination of both, I don't recall the details, but he comes to the cop's house in the middle of the day threatening to take the cop apart. And this was a big bad guy...the officer is in his house with his 9mm. The bad guy gets a window open and starts through it. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. If my memory serves me correctly, the officer shot the guy nine times. What stopped him? Local cops arrived in response to the 911 call. 

That story did it for me. That's when I went to the .45's. I agree that a .357 is pretty much one of the top stoppers around, as that's what I carried on duty for many years. It's a cannon. It's just not that available in the semi's. 

And as soon as I log off here I'm going over to Apex to see about that modification for my M&P. 

Lotsa good info here...glad I joined. Thanks.

Jim


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

jdatbs77 said:


> I guess you could say I'm "impressionable." I used to carry the P2000 9mm pretty confidently. Then I spoke with a policeman in Pomona. He was a motor officer, and was injured in a crash, so he was housebound. He had a neighbor who was just a humongous a-hole. Well, his neighbor got really drunk, or stoned, or a combination of both, I don't recall the details, but he comes to the cop's house in the middle of the day threatening to take the cop apart. And this was a big bad guy...the officer is in his house with his 9mm. The bad guy gets a window open and starts through it. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. If my memory serves me correctly, the officer shot the guy nine times. What stopped him? Local cops arrived in response to the 911 call.
> 
> That story did it for me. That's when I went to the .45's. I agree that a .357 is pretty much one of the top stoppers around, as that's what I carried on duty for many years. It's a cannon. It's just not that available in the semi's.
> 
> ...


Accuracy speaks louder than bore size.



> *Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice*
> 
> Resistance to GunfireMettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .*45-six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot-without any significant effect on his fighting ability.* This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market.
> ​
> ...


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

From what Ive read the physcological makeup of the individual also plays a part in it.Some people are predisposed with watching hollywood shootings and fall due to a wound in the flesh of the leg.We all know a heart shot is not instantaneous,perps or animals are known to continue on in the attack or flight..There are so many variables in each shooting.The only true one shot stop is the brain stem.It severs all body functions but it is a small target in a bone cage.From what I understand,the chest area has the most important and easier vitals to hit but doesnt neccessarily mean they will crumple.As long as enough blood is pumping they can still continue the attack especially if in motion and the body is full of adrenaline.Hence comes the term "shoot em to the ground".There is no majic bullet or the pistol is not a talisman that will protect us.I feel that in a violent encounter that the mindset of WIN no matter the cost is a key element.I feel you need to use our basic primal instinct along with training and practice so it becomes second nature is the key to survival.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

skullfr said:


> From what Ive read the physcological makeup of the individual also plays a part in it.Some people are predisposed with watching hollywood shootings and fall due to a wound in the flesh of the leg.We all know a heart shot is not instantaneous,perps or animals are known to continue on in the attack or flight..There are so many variables in each shooting.The only true one shot stop is the brain stem.It severs all body functions but it is a small target in a bone cage.From what I understand,the chest area has the most important and easier vitals to hit but doesnt neccessarily mean they will crumple.As long as enough blood is pumping they can still continue the attack especially if in motion and the body is full of adrenaline.Hence comes the term "shoot em to the ground".There is no majic bullet or the pistol is not a talisman that will protect us.I feel that in a violent encounter that the mindset of WIN no matter the cost is a key element.I feel you need to use our basic primal instinct along with training and practice so it becomes second nature is the key to survival.


Yep. There are no guarantees. And then there is this.

Every shooting is going to be different. You will not know how your caliber/load choice is going to work until the day comes that you must use it. And even then, you will only know how well it worked for that specific and instance case. What this tells us is to choose wisely and train frequently. Add in a measure of the will to use your sidearm should you have to and you stand a reasonable chance of surviving an extreme encounter. I am also a firm believer in this little fact.

Unless you have had similar experience in the past, you are never going to know how you're going to react in an extreme encounter until it is staring you in the face. All of the bragging and armchair discussions and such go out the window when reality is about to test your resolve.


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

you are exactly right sir.


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## jdatbs77 (Jun 26, 2012)

SO...
Ordered a D/CAEK from Apex. Got an email that said "Steve Hitch sent you a package." 
As for ammo? I think there are two basic considerations: shock, and mass. No doubt a jhp .357 is gonna have staggering shock power, and also no doubt that fat little .45 acp is gonna feel like the target got punched by a Terminator. I think I'd prefer the fat round to the smaller hi power round. I want something that's gonna stop an attacker. I know I can go look for articles that have been written on this, but I'd like the opinions of the real shooters here. What do you think???


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## skullfr (Jun 19, 2012)

In my opinion it would be a .45.I base this on a couple of shootings and years of black powder hunting.My favorite black powder was a 54 cal.The effect of the shock was so tremendous on game I took which was mainly deer and hogs.The same effect I feel you could expect in a .45.A large chunk of lead smacking meat and bone.The effect of a missed vital and hitting bone is pretty impressive.A 230 gr JHP that has expanded is a large piece of lead.At worst it creates large leakage.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

jdatbs77 said:


> SO...
> Ordered a D/CAEK from Apex. Got an email that said "Steve Hitch sent you a package."
> As for ammo? I think there are two basic considerations: shock, and mass. No doubt a jhp .357 is gonna have staggering shock power, and also no doubt that fat little .45 acp is gonna feel like the target got punched by a Terminator. I think I'd prefer the fat round to the smaller hi power round. I want something that's gonna stop an attacker. I know I can go look for articles that have been written on this, but I'd like the opinions of the real shooters here. What do you think???


The DCAEK kit comes with a heavier than stock trigger spring. If you want a nice 5 pound trigger, do not install this spring. Everything else in the kit is fine to put in you M&P, but keep the OEM factory spring.

As for SD ammunition, yes there are several schools of thought on this. Member skullfr in post #32 makes some good points. The thing is, most people are looking for a balance or compromise with their carry gun(s), caliber, and load. Nothing is perfect in the world of carry handguns, but some choices are better than others. Most of the folks I know on other sites who have actually either been involved in shootings or have been involved in the aftermath (think CSI, emergency personnel, doctors, nurses, etc.) tend to lean towards the larger calibers and the venerated .45ACP is right up there.

I know this is a hard choice and your best bet is research and trying not to let biases enter the picture as you go about learning which loads have the better track records.


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