# Anyone having probs with cheaper ammo?



## sig09 (Nov 10, 2008)

My 2009 pro series seems to dislike PMR , WWB and precision reloads. It will stove pipe every couple of shots when using these manufacturers. I can run hydroshocks or blazer brass with little/ no problems. Is anyone else having problems with there sig being picky with ammo? Are there any parts I could replace to help this , like the recoil spring or something? thanks guys


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

The only problem I have with cheap ammo is that there isn't enough of it!!!


Seriously though, have someone SAFELY take a picture of your shooting grip and post it here, I bet we can solve 90% of feeding problems in short order. (not a dig, a true offer of help). Sometimes it's a very simple matter.


Zhur


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Stove piping can be attributed to "limp wristing" which is why the photo of you gripping was solicited. However unless a video is produce I don't think that a difinitive ruling can be objectively offered.

Simply based on what information has been provided, it doesn't seem like it's the ammo in question. Those you are having problems with ARE lower on the power scale compared to the ones listed that work. Thus what has already been posted above. The higher powered loads can hurdle the stove pipe issue with brute force to put it simply. It still doesn't properly diagnos nor correct the problem.

If you have a proper grip on the firearm with your firing hand AND your supporting hand, you shouldn't have any problems, seriously. Can you show or describe the grip you are using? Cup and saucer, parallel thumbs, hand over hand etc.. If it comes down to having a proper grip, than the only other possible answers would be replace the recoil spring and magazine maintenance. I'm betting on a gripping issue over these last two options at this point.


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## sig09 (Nov 10, 2008)

I have the day off and Im hoping to go to the range today , if its possible Ill have my cousin take a video. thanks


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## dblshred (Jan 31, 2009)

I just ran 100 rounds of PMC through my P239 two days ago without incident. According to the Cheaper than Dirt website, PMC may be one of the true bargains around. Most users have rated it well for accuracy and reliability, and it's cheap!


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## sig09 (Nov 10, 2008)

Still havent gotten to the range but heres a few pics of my grip... my fiance wasnt real excited about taking the last one...lol... I had to show her it was unloaded twice.. better safe than sorry ..lmk if you guys see anything wrong, thanks alot


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

booger hook off the bang switch!

:buttkick:


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Aside from the aforementioned "finger OFF the trigger" comment, nothing fundemantally wrong with the grip. When firing, however, is your right wrist firmly locked or does it flex back with the recoil (limp wristing is what it's referred to as). This would cause stove piping as your wrist flipping back absorbs energy that would otherwise be diecrted to the recoil spring. Taking that energy from the slide away from the action only partially ejecs the spent case as the ejection port isn't allowed to open fully, thus trapping the case within - stove piping.

I generally use WWB as range ammo in all of my handguns and have not ever had a problem. It could also be possible that it is not adequately lubed. SiG's like to run wet rather than dry. I have another post in the SiG section listing the major points of lubing. If you need more info, just ask. I'll take more pictures and point out specific areas that need attention.


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## sig09 (Nov 10, 2008)

I drip oil down the slide rails, lightly oil the slide ears, and wipe the barrel and hood lightly. Im going to find your post and concentrate on my wrist next time at the range. thanks


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

*shutters at last photo*

Depending on how you stand, I'd try the following.

1. Thumbs laying parallel to each other along the slide.
2. Straighten both arms. (This directs recoil energy down both arms, helps to prevent twisting during recoil.
3. Square shoulders to fiance`, er um... target. 

The pistol looks well oiled, you can see it along the slide in the photos. I'd focus more on grip, arms and stance. Good luck!

Zhur


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

His stance looks a lot like mine. I don't have both elbows locked out like many will. I like to give a little less of a target back so I'm never square with the target, I turn a little having my left foot a little more fwd (left handed). 

I really don't see a lot wrong with the stance. Unless your wrists are giving too much when the weapon cycles.

Last pic is a little spooky eh? Seemed to be sighting in pretty well though.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Having that right thumb tucked down may be leading to a little less strength in preventing recoil absorbtion by the wrist. Extending it and going with the "parallel thumbs" grip would improve that aspect. Also spotted a slight cant to the left, minor but contributing factor. Alignment with the frame of the stance (bones and in particular, those in the arm) are primary in allowing properly efficient recoil function. Every little bit takes that much potential/kinetic energy out of the equation. The cant would (all else being equal) also affect grouping POI, especially at longer ranges. Obviously not much of a factor at 7 yds (20 feet) or less unless shooting bullseye competitions.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Of all the video I have, I only have one from the left side. I'd just gotten my new Rapter Pro II and wanted to try something I'd read about. It involved using the off hand to drop the slide so you can reposition your shooting hand earlier. I tried it, I don't like it, I wouldn't recommend it.

But that's not why I posted the video. It's for hand placement and to show you what I meant about arms straight, shoulders more square to the target and thumbs parallel.



Think of it like a bipod, but horizontal. It'll distribute the weight (recoil) better if the legs are the same (or close to it) length.

Hope this helps out. (and no, I can't fully straighten my elbows, that's as far as they go.)

Zhur


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

I know it's already been said, but I figured I'd say it nonetheless.

Thumbs should be stacked and pointed forward, much like the above pic.....

......unless of course, after an earnest effort you can't hit anything with your hands like that. Chances are it'll improve accuracy, however.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

In my opinion all the talk about limp wristing causing problems in a combat handgun is simply excusing a poor design or malfunctioning gun.

If you are ever in a gun fight you need a gun that will operate properly while using 2 hands, strong hand, or weak hand. It may need to operate on it's side or upside down while you are almost standing on your head as well as in the classic pose.

If it will only operate in an upright two hand hold, held stiff armed and wristed with left foot slightly ahead of and 18 inches to the left of your right, then get rid of it and buy one that is capable of saving your life.

If your only application is plinking and you don't mind a lot of interruptions keep it and enjoy.

:mrgreen:


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

The next thing to know from the OP then would be how old is the handgun? New or used? CPO or not? If it wasn't new or CPO, then it is possible the recoil spring need to be replaced.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Your SIG should eat positively EVERYTHING you feed it. Period.

Send it back to SIG.

The only caviot to that is *very *low powered target ammo, which may require a lighter recoil spring. That said... my M&P9c shoots my low-pressure USPSA loads just fine... 100%. My M&P PRO Series 5" barrel and heavy 5" slide runs better with a low-power spring. But a SIG???

If it doesn't shoot anything, any way, every time??? Send her in.

Jeff


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

TOF said:


> In my opinion all the talk about limp wristing causing problems in a combat handgun is simply excusing a poor design or malfunctioning gun.
> 
> If you are ever in a gun fight you need a gun that will operate properly while using 2 hands, strong hand, or weak hand. It may need to operate on it's side or upside down while you are almost standing on your head as well as in the classic pose.
> 
> ...


TOF,

As much as I've come to respect your opinion on this forum, there is a bit of skill involved for any mechanical object to function with repeatability. Would you expect your car to function without regular schedules maintenance or proper care during use? Would you expect that a medical thermometer work if not placed in the proper area for the appropriate amount of time? Would you expect that a loan officer not check that all the necessary information is in place prior to a loan ( current Gov't withstanding hehehehe).

Every system, mechanical or bioligical, physical or otherwise, have a few things that must happen to make them work.

I would seriously doubt that if you took any firearm, and pulled the trigger on them, unsuported that they would function. The user is part of the equation, regardless of their willingness to be part of the physical system. Some may preform outside of that, but isn't it our duty as users to find out what makes them function best? Hense my post about grip and stance. I'd be willing to bet that from all my experience, I could make almost any pistol aside from a standard revolver, malfunction from user error. There is a certain amount of physics involved on the users part to provide a 'resistance' to force to make the equation work. Meaning, the pistol will not function short of the user providing a certain amount of resistance to facilitate recoil, for it to function properly.

Either way, I think it has much more to do with learning to shoot your weapon, than it has to do with the weapon learning to shoot your way, as the weapon is an inanimate object.

Respectfully,

Zhurdan

PS. I believe that if it is a "Combat handgun" it should be in the hand of someone who knows how to use it, that being said, a certain amount of skill is associated with the user.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Zhur,

I wholeheartedly agree your pistol should be maintained with every bit as much if not more care than your automobile. If it is it should work under more than the most controlled conditions.

I also agree that a certain level of skill is necessary to operate a pistol reliably and accurately.

A pistol that requires a 2 hand hold however is worthless as a self defense weapon.

If I happen to be carrying a grandchild to the car at the Mall and am attacked am I to simply throw the child to the ground so I can plant my feet assume either an Isosclese or Weaver stance prior to shooting.

I dont think so.

I will draw and while moving towards safety fire at my assailant.

My M&P functions each time I pull the trigger as long as cartridges remain whether it is held loosely in one hand (weak or strong) on its side with me laying down etc. How do I know? I have verified by trial.

I admit I haven't tried it standing on my head. I'm getting to old for some of this stuff. :anim_lol:

There is no guarantee you will be able to use both hands or even stand up in a deadly confrontation as you do not know beforehand what you will be doing or where you will be should an attack occur. You could be shot in an arm, either one, a leg or elsewhere during a confrontation. That is when you need your pistol to function flawlessly with less than perfect hold.

Target shooting is a different ballgame.

Stay safe.

:smt1099

.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

zhurdan said:


> I'd be willing to bet that from all my experience, I could make almost any pistol aside from a standard revolver, malfunction from user error.


Not my P-01 but you did say almost any. :mrgreen:


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## sig09 (Nov 10, 2008)

To answer a few Q's, I bought the gun used, I didnt know the previous owner. It was inspected by there in house gun smith( for what its worth). The accuracy of the pistol is far better than myself, on the 3rd or 4th trip to the range I got a nice grouping from 15 rounds( the picture is posted on here). Sometimes itll run 100 wwb rounds ok but sometimes not. Im going to replace the recoil spring, how do I determine what spring tension is correct for me? As far as the pics we triple checked to make sure it was empty but I didnt want to leave any rock unturned, even the trigger finger position . thanks guys I appreciate it.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Finger position on the trigger can lead to some problems, but nothing to do with stove piping. More to do with POI. The OEM spring or similar rated woill probably be just fine. 18lbs IIRC. SiG has them or Wolff for aftermarket. Try TopGunSupply for them if you don't want to go direct to the sources.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

If replacing parts yourself, as opposed to having a Gunsmith do it, I reccomend you use parts from the gun manufacturer specificaly manufactured for your model/serial number range gun.

Given that your gun was purchased used, it is possible that a previous owner tried to "Tune" it to some non standard power level hand loads by changing the recoil spring. That is not as much of a stretch as you might think. Some people just feel they have to "Customize" their pistol whether it needs it or not.

If it was an S&W they would send you a new spring no charge. I haven't owned a Sig so don't know their policy. Give them a call and find out.

Good luck :mrgreen:


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## sig09 (Nov 10, 2008)

Well I went to my friends house in Indiana and ran 200 rounds of WWB through it and not 1 stove pipe. I very well may have been limp wristing and did not realized it. Im still going to replace the recoil spring but with the idea of controlling recoil in the back of my mind, it shot flawless..:mrgreen:. thanks


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