# Shoot......No Shoot??



## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

So you are cruiseing around your favorite Big Box store and you are say 35 to 40 yards from the checkout but have an excellent view of the front of the store. Some knuckle draggin idiot with a pistol is trying to rob one of the cashiers. Now the people around this creep part like the Red Sea for Moses so you got a clear shoot with nobody behind him but a cinder block wall. The guy is totally crazy and shoving the gun at the poor girl behind the counter and being super agressive. So.....Shoot or no Shoot? What would be your tip over point? Would you try to close some distance? What is your criteria for dealing with this?


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## Jackle1886 (Dec 21, 2007)

Not knowing what the laws on this are in my state, i'm not quite sure what I would do. If it appears the gunman was going to shoot the girl, I sure would put a few in him. I might try to come up behind him and disarm him if that would be possible too.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Jackle1886 said:


> Not knowing what the laws on this are in my state, i'm not quite sure what I would do.


That is one of the reasons I'm asking this......If you carry then you (I) need to know before you find yourself in this situation! I think it's a good topic and I laid it out the way I did for a reason.....I'm really interested to see how it would be handled.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

In Texas, I would be justified. The cashier, if she were armed, would be justified in defending herself against aggravated robbery and aggravated assault in her workplace without retreat, and therefore I as a third person would be justified in defending her against same.

I think I would draw and announce, ordering him to the ground. The best round is the round you have ready, but do not have to fire. If that gun in his hand moves a single degree in my direction he gets a Mozambique.


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## Snowman (Jan 2, 2007)

You'd be crazy to take a shot like that from 35 yards. Heck, even at half that distance you stand too great a chance of hitting the cashier you mean to defend.

If you judged that taking the guy out was the solution, you should close distance. It would be a judgment call.


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

Knowing your own state laws is a must for anyone carrying a gun. Last year Michigan enacted the Castle Doctrine laws, 6 seperate bills known here as the "Stand Your Ground" laws. If you believe that you or another person is about to suffer death, great bodily injury, or sexual assault you can respond with deadly force. In Michigan you have no duty to retreat from somewhere you have a legal right to be, it is the duty of the prosecutor to prove you were not justified, and if ruled justified the person you shoot and their family cannot sue you. 

That being said, 35-40 yds is an extremely long defensive shot with a pistol. It may also be questioned if you could really hear and know what was going on from that far away. If you were to decide to shoot you would need to get much closer. If you were to miss, the BG would almost definitely shoot back with no regard for the people between you and him. Now you would be in a gun battle with people running around in chaos. If an innocent person got shot it would not be far fetched to find yourself the victim of a overzealous prosecutor or high priced plaintiff's attorney. Even "Stand Your Ground" laws do not protect you if an innocent person gets hurt. Just my opinion!


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## Black Metal (Jan 16, 2008)

Close on him and shoot when I reach a distance that i feel confident my shot will hit its mark. In Utah I can legally defend anyone unable to protect themselves who's life is threatend. Brandishing a weapon is a threat to life.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

35 - 40 yards? No way I'm engaging from that far. That's waaaaay outside my comfort zone at the range, let alone with added pressure of this "real life" scenario. At that distance I'm making sure my wife and kids are safely behind me (I'm usually with at least one kid), calling 911 and staying on the line giving a play-by-play if I can, keeping good cover, and being a good witness after the fact. I have no delusions of grandeur, I'm not a LEO, and I don't carry for the protection of others. My "job" is to make sure *my* *family* makes it home each time we leave the house; everyone else is on their own. We all have the same rights to carry guns, if others choose not to exercise their rights, not my fault or problem. I have no intention of making my kids orphans or my wife a widow because I tried to be a hero and attempted to close 35+ yards on a deranged guy with a gun.

Now if I was one of the people right at the register, different story because I was right in the middle of things. But that wasn't the question posed.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Todd. I'm not a cop or an action hero, and 35 yards is a heck of a long shot with a pistol under that kind of stress. Hell, over here we have guys who are good shots who still miss with *rifles* at that range all the time in real fights.

A Mozambique at *35* yards? Cripes, I don't know too many guys who can do a really good Mozambique at 7 yards on a stationary cardboard target, never mind a distance five times that with a bobbing, moving real life head.

Just because you *can* shoot doesn't mean you *should* shoot.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> I'm not a cop or an action hero ...


Admit it Mike, you've taken a GI Joe figure and painted your name on the pocket so you can fight COBRA! :mrgreen:


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

I set this up with the idea that you had a clear field of fire other than the girl at the regster but I put the yardage problem in. I know What I can do out to 25 yards, and it's good enough to get the job done PROVIDED I've got enough time to settle on the target. When I put this together I wasn't sure what I myself would do. If I could close the distance some and felt that the guy was really gonna shoot the girl I think I'd move in the direction of taking him on.I think if I was in the margin of my ability I'd verbally confront him but if he flinched in my direction I'd shoot. If there wasn't a way to get an advantage it could be tuff to sit still especially if things went bad. To know that you could have tried but did nothing wouldn't sit well. I'd hope I'd have to try if he started shooting. I've never been faced with anything remotely like this so I'm untested and unsure what I'd do to be truthful.

Faced with a butt head with a death wish in a Mall were he was shooting at any and everyone I know I'd try to get a shot in and I'd sure as hell try to do my best to send him on his way. I guess statistically gun fights are a close encounter thing but being a concealed carry could put you in a situation were a longer shot might be required. A fifty yard shot might be something to work on. I figure if you can stay on an 8.5"x11" piece of paper with a fairly quick shot it would be good enough. Other than the easy ones like someone in your house there are a lot of scenarios were you have to make a quick judgement call. I'm thinking it's good to conceder some of these problems before you have to face them. Yah it's make believe but I think it has its value too. Anybody else got a good one?


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> I'm not a cop or an action hero,












I think it kinda looks like ya. Just add a couple of Galco holsters and a Galco Harness, and you're all set! :smt082

WM


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

35 yards inside is a long way...yeah it's the same as being outside, but it seems a lot longer. I mean that's half the depth of Wal-mart. I'd get low, hide myself, and close the distance...get at an angle (if possible) that would put nobody directly behind the BG or directly next to them, and whack him. A lot of factors that could change though, so I can't really say what I'd do 100% unless I was actually there.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Shooting at paper and shooting at a living, breathing, moving person are two _entirely_ different things.

I personally know guys who can very reliably hit the 300m popup targets in rifle quals, but who have missed living, breathing, moving people at ranges under 50m. Crap happens in fights, and just because you can make some simulated "hostage rescue" shot on a piece of cardboard on the manicured range with dry, steady hands and a calm resting pulse does not mean you can come anywhere _close_ to replicating that level of skill when under the kind of stress we're talking about in this thread.

Various studies have shown that shooting skill degrades by somewhere between 50% and 80% when stress levels are high - and they'd be practically stratospheric in this scenario. You can hit a non-threatening piece of typing paper at that range? Congrats. I can hit a silhouette in the chest at 300m with an M4 on the range every time, but that doesn't mean I can do it on the battlefield. In the hard reality of life, unless you have ice water in your veins and can channel Bill Blankenship, an attempt at a 35 yard hostage rescue shot with a pistol is foolhardy.

Unless, of course, you don't give a damn about the hostage - or the bystander you didn't see because you have tunnel vision.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Shooting at paper and shooting at a living, breathing, moving person are two _entirely_ different things.
> 
> I personally know guys who can very reliably hit the 300m popup targets in rifle quals, but who have missed living, breathing, moving people at ranges under 50m. Crap happens in fights, and just because you can make some simulated "hostage rescue" shot on a piece of cardboard on the manicured range with dry, steady hands and a calm resting pulse does not mean you can come anywhere _close_ to replicating that level of skill when under the kind of stress we're talking about in this thread.
> 
> ...


I had thought along those very lines.....Good words!


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> unless you have ice water in your veins


I guess from now on when I'm carrying I'll be sure and IV myself with 1000cc of ice water before I leave! :smt082


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Um... How about dragging out that old cellphone and dialling 911 first, after getting behind cover?

At a minimum, 911 calls are recorded and could save you a lot of lawyer money if you have to go to court to defend your subsequent actions. At worse if you get hit, the cops are on the way.

Again, I have to suggest caution in what you do next until you have a clear picture of the situation. Who can say that the perp doesn't have an armed accomplice roaming the aisles?

Real life isn't the movies. Then again maybe it is! You could rip off your shirt, spash body oil on to better display your abs and disarm the bad guy using your spidermonkey mall ninja skills!


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## dallaswood43 (Jan 13, 2008)

*what do i believe???*

reading these scenarios i keep looking within myself to see how i feel about shooting someone who more than likely is just after money. i don't think i have a solid answer yet. however i do know that 35-40 yards is a very long handgun shot, especially when you consider that a concealed carry gun more than likely has a short barrell. i also have been looking inside myself to see how i feel about protecting strangers. i think you might have an obligation to intervene in certain situations. i don't necessarily agree with todd's view that 22 year old girl doesn't have concealed permit so TS for her. then again i don't know that it's your obligation to go 40 yards out of your way army crawl style to get in range for a shot either. it's a very interesting question and post.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

dallaswood43 said:


> i don't necessarily agree with todd's view that 22 year old girl doesn't have concealed permit so TS for her.


It's not a _total _TS for her. From the _distance described in the scenario_, yes, I'm not going to risk my life or put my family in danger. Sorry. Not a LEO, not Superman, not Rambo. If I was in line, I would do something, but remember that's not the scenario posed.

I'm sorry if I come off mean, or aloof, or as a cold-hearted bastard in regards to this, but that's how I _realistically_ see it playing out from the scenario as posed. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone on this thread or this forum, but it's easy to be a tough guy behind a screen name and there are a lot of armchair commandos on the internet and I'll be dammed if I become one of them. I know that I do not have military, LE, or mall ninja training. I'm just a guy who carries a gun. More than likely if I did try to intervene from that distance, I would just end up shot or dead for my troubles. Sorry, but my wife and kids need me alive. And frankly, for those that say they would take the shot from that insane distance or close the gap and take the guy out (again, *not *singling out anyone here), IMO 80%+ of those people in real life would hit the deck like everyone else.


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## bps3040 (Jan 6, 2008)

I would call 911 and wait, watch and report to the operator. Or if my family was there, I would be herding them out the rear exit. If he started just wasting people...who knows...close distance and...


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## dallaswood43 (Jan 13, 2008)

well i see what you are saying todd. i also mentioned that it's far too long a shot and that it wouldn't really be wise to try and creep up on the guy from such a long distance. in the scenario above you would probably be doing more harm than good and cause the bg to panic potentially. i thought you were saying that as a general rule you wouldn't intervene because it's every man for himself since they have the right to get their permit. maybe that is your view but don't you think it is a case by case evaluation type of thing? i also agree that people can day dream about saving the day behind a computer but when it really comes down to it most of us would be soiling ourselves. that is probably the primary reason some people are against ccw because they are afraid of people playing hero and worsening the situation. i think as a general rule if you can't take out the bg without making it nearly impossible for him to return fire than you're probably just best to leave the gun on your hip. of course if he just starts shooting indiscriminantly that's a different story because he's already pulling the trigger.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

dallaswood43 said:


> i thought you were saying that as a general rule you wouldn't intervene ...


My general rule is I won't _automatically_ intervene. My wife and kids *must* be safe first. That is non-negotiable with me. They are the priority. I'm not leaving them to rush head long into danger. Hell, I'm just not rushing head long into danger period; family or no family. Then, depending on the situation, I may act, or I may not.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

The scenario given says concrete block wall only as a backdrop and the crowd parted. I'm assuming the BG's back is to me or at least I'm not clearly in his line of vision. My carry weapon has laser sights which have a very good reputation for stopping situations without a shot fired and make a sighting situations like this very accurate and pretty easy (with all due respect to adrenalin pumping) this situation isn't as bad as the BG pointing the gun at you 10 feet away so I have some time to gather my thoughts. Depending on how crazed this BG is as he threatens the clerk, I think my answer would be BANG!!!!:gib:

If I were say 30% thinking any other intervention could work I *might *try and get his attention and see if a laser planted on his chest makes him run though I doubt there's much chance of this scenario though I would consider it since most BG's think they are the only one with a gun and flee like a rabbit when they learn differently. That's the only reason I might give anything but BANG a chance.

In Pennsylvania you are free to save the life of others.

Also, I think we have a moral obligation to protect others as carriers; I couldn't live with myself knowing I could have saved someone else's life and didn't even try. But I dont mean vigilante, playing cop or like the guy in Texas who recently used the Castle Doctrine as an excuse to go to a vacant neighbors house and shoot and kill a robber.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Have those of you that would plug the BG considered that might cause him to squeeze his trigger and kill the clerk. There can be unintended consequences to what are otherwise good intentions. I reccomend gaining cover calling 911 if you have a cell phone. They don't work where I live so I would not have one. Then waiting for the Police or for the perp to escalate the situation.

If he starts blasting people and there is an open 35 yard shot then yes I would take one. I do routinley practice at such distances but would not fire unless he went berserk.

:smt1099


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

TOF said:


> Have those of you that would plug the BG considered that might cause him to squeeze his trigger and kill the clerk. There can be unintended consequences to what are otherwise good intentions. I reccomend gaining cover calling 911 if you have a cell phone. They don't work where I live so I would not have one. Then waiting for the Police or for the perp to escalate the situation.
> 
> If he starts blasting people and there is an open 35 yard shot then yes I would take one. I do routinley practice at such distances but would not fire unless he went berserk.
> 
> :smt1099


First of all the scenario states that the clerk is out of the line of fire and taking a shot would be a risk to the concrete block wall or the BG only. Second, I dont know about where you live but when we dial 911 it isn't an instant "Beam Me Up Scotti". I would bet my life this situation is over before you hang up or the cop that would be coming is even notified.

Remember the statistics for defensive shooting; you've got 3 seconds to shoot first if you're lucky; the BG knows exactly why he's there and how he intends to act, you have to figure it out then react. That BG isn't going to hang around till a cop could possibly get there unless the cop happens to be walking through the door as it happens.

Again, I couldn't live with waiting till there are dead bodies to act if I had the cover of not being noticed, could gather my thoughts and take a best shot. Odds are the shot alone, even if you miss, will have the BG running without a shot from him since he is counting on being the only one with a gun there, and given the scenario, you could probably shoot "off the bench" since you are so far away and he isn't looking at you. They are cowards, that's why the rob with a gun in hand.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

*wboggs,*

I was talking about the BG shooting the clerk when he clenched up from you shooting him.

Also, I have been around long enough to know that Scottie retired and I believe died so a beam up is certainly out of the question.

:smt1099


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

wboggs said:


> Also, I think we have a moral obligation to protect others as carriers;


The only people that have an _obligation_ to protect people are called cops and soldiers. Since I am neither, it's not my job or obligation to look out for anybody but my family; that's _my moral obligation._ I don't fall for this sheepdog and sheepeople stuff where we as CCW/CCH holders need to be ever vigilant and out protecting the clueless and naive who do not carry. We all have the right to carry, so because someone doesn't want to exercise that right, I'm supposed to risk my neck saving them when they're in a situation where they need a gun? Not happening. When I got my CCH permit, I know I didn't sign anything or take an oath swearing to protect people, and I doubt anyone here did as well. I don't have any more obligation to go protecting someone just because I happen to have a gun (and that's all we are as CCW holders; guy/gals with guns) than does a guy with 5 gas cans in the back of his truck does to stop and fill me up if if stranded on the side of the road.

Like I said earlier in this thread, if I was right there at the register, then I would do something because I was literally thrust right in the middle of it. But now way I'm running head long into danger to take on some nut job waiving a gun. My obligation is to sit tight and make sure my family is safe (because odds are one or both of the kids is with me), nothing more.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Todd said:


> The only people that have an _obligation_ to protect people are called cops and soldiers. Since I am neither, it's not my job or obligation to look out for anybody but my family; that's _my moral obligation._ I don't fall for this sheepdog and sheepeople stuff where we as CCW/CCH holders need to be ever vigilant and out protecting the clueless and naive who do not carry. We all have the right to carry, so because someone doesn't want to exercise that right, I'm supposed to risk my neck saving them when they're in a situation where they need a gun? Not happening. When I got my CCH permit, I know I didn't sign anything or take an oath swearing to protect people, and I doubt anyone here did as well. I don't have any more obligation to go protecting someone just because I happen to have a gun (and that's all we are as CCW holders; guy/gals with guns) than does a guy with 5 gas cans in the back of his truck does to stop and fill me up if if stranded on the side of the road.
> 
> Like I said earlier in this thread, if I was right there at the register, then I would do something because I was literally thrust right in the middle of it. But now way I'm running head long into danger to take on some nut job waiving a gun. My obligation is to sit tight and make sure my family is safe (because odds are one or both of the kids is with me), nothing more.


That's OK, there are people like you in the World. There are cops that would watch you burn to death in your car justifying it by saying they didn't sign up to take unnecessary risks (and there's cops that dont take unnecessary risks) and soldiers that fight and lose their lives for the freedom of those who burn the American flag and hate America. But just like the Soldier that gives his life for people who dont deserve to enjoy the freedom his life paid for; you've got to hope that the guy you just stood there and witnessed slaughter an innocent person doesn't kill you or one of your family members before he gets caught.

I couldn't live with it, I guess you could; that's the difference between you and me. Just dont call me names or belittle me because you're so cold.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Anything less than a head shot in this situation is going to result in a dead clerk - exactly the thing we are trying to avoid. Laser sights are nice and all, but regardless of their "reputation," have you ever tried to use your laser to make a shot at 35 yards on a 4" moving target (the approximate size of the good kill zone on the human head) while under deadly stress? Good luck with that. As Mas Ayoob used to say, "I shall wait for you here." Laser sights are certainly no panacea for trembling hands and a poor trigger pull - both very likely under this kind of stress.

As I have mentioned, many very good shooters in my unit have missed similar shots over here with *optically-sighted rifles*, never mind puny, hard-to-shoot pistols.

I don't see where *Todd* called anyone any names. He simply laid out his philosophy on intervention, and I agree with him, especially in this scenario. I know lots of CCW guys think they suddenly have a big red "S" on their chest when they start carrying, but I think we need to be a lot more circumspect about intervention in fights that don't involve us. There's an awful lot that can go wrong.

I'm a soldier, and nothing in *Todd's* post offends me. I swore an oath to defend people who can't defend themselves. But when I take off this uniform in March, I am just another guy, and I'm not a "sheepdog" or whatever, herding my helpless fellow citizens along. They have just as much right to a CCW as I do, and they should avail themselves of that opportunity. I dislike the whole "sheepdog" analogy for CCW holders. As *Todd* said so well, all a CCW makes you is a guy with a gun. We're not cops or action heros.

I suppose one man's "rational" is another man's "cold."


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Anything less than a head shot in this situation is going to result in a dead clerk - exactly the thing we are trying to avoid.


So that's the only outcome that can be expected? If you've got a crystal ball that's that good, then you would know exactly what to do. You give the BG far too much credit to be of sound enough mind to kill someone who is no threat to him because that's his mission instead of freaking out that there's a gun other than his in the building and at best defending himself against the gun shooting at him. You've possibly spent to much time at war to understand the difference between a coward robbing the cash for his next fix verses someone whose job is to kill the ones with a particular uniform on. Your prediction reflects a war scenario; now what you can watch on videos on TV of real situations where the BG goes into major panic and runs when someone else shoots or he dies. For some reason you give BG's tremendous mental superiority when in fact they are cowards scared to death themselves hoping the gun thing wins his desire.



Mike Barham said:


> Laser sights are nice and all, but regardless of their "reputation," have you ever tried to use your laser to make a shot at 35 yards on a 4" moving target (the approximate size of the good kill zone on the human head) while under deadly stress?


Now that makes a lot of sense, "lets forget about the superior fight stopping power the laser sights have a proven track record of"...what you're saying is ignore what ought to happen and pretend we cant shoot with a laser beam directing us. Maybe you should go back and read the scenario again but with the anonymity of the carrier in the scenario, if you have any ability to cool your head since the guy isn't standing in front of you ready to pull the trigger on you (meaning you are so far removed that it should be more like target shooting on Sunday afternoon), you could certainly find something in a store with SHELVES to rest your gun on and take a sniper shot at a totally unsuspecting target. From a bench with my 1911, 45 I can hang a target with a 3/4 inch bull and fire one shot at that target and retrieve a bulls eye. If you couldn't hit a persons head off the bench with adjusted laser sights then learn to shoot.



Mike Barham said:


> We're not cops or action heros.
> 
> I suppose one man's "rational" is another man's "cold."


If you're not a cop or action hero then when someone comes into your home to kill you, dial 911...and here's where your "rational" proves how inhuman you are. I used the wrong words to try and be nice, let me say what I really think; it's inhuman to stand and watch an innocent person get murdered when you could have stopped it or at least tried. Personally I would rather end up dead myself trying to save a fellow man than to do nothing.

Now pardon me while I go bathe.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> They have just as much right to a CCW as I do, and they should avail themselves of that opportunity.


You know, I used to be a volunteer fireman; I would risk my life to save you and your property and it almost cost me my life three times. You know what I didn't say? Those people whose houses are burning down with them or their children in them could have become a volunteer fireman too and save themselves.

Play out the scenario two different ways; one a coward says I'm looking out for me and to hell with the poor victim and one a responsible citizen who has the warewithal to save the potential victim. The first guy leaves and announces his ability to save the victim and blames them for being dead because they didn't carry a gun like you but you looked out for yourself and let the victim die. The second walks up to bring comfort to the person he saved making sure the BG is disabled and the area is safe. Geezzz I wonder what the difference would be in the crowds reaction to the two different men?

If you're trying to justify your selfishness to the point that you look like a hero or superior; forget it, it wont work.


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## lovain1932 (Feb 14, 2008)

I'd like to respond to Todds comment about looking out for himself but what if the cashier was your teenage daughter would you want someone to take action in your absence?


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

lovain1932 said:


> I'd like to respond to Todds comment about looking out for himself but what if the cashier was your teenage daughter would you want someone to take action in your absence?


Mike would say his teen aged daughter has a carry permit and a hand gun strapped to her side when she works the register at the WalMart. You know; you see that all the time.


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## khellandros66 (Oct 1, 2007)

This scenerio is unreleastic. In my 8 years of Big Box Retail I have never seen someone dumb enough to try and rob the place. A smal 711 or similar store is more believable.

Big Box policy usually dictates to give the person anything without resistance so I doubt the cashier will risk their own ass if the store doesn't care about that money.

IF the scenario would arise I would close to within 15m of the threat but would not draw till I see its clear they intend to harm the worker and to do so w/o me risking harm to anyone else.

IF family or friends are near the issue I would not hesitate to take them down. I know its easy to say and hard to do but I have to admit I can disconnect from my emotions very well.

Cheers

Bobby


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## CMSpecs (Feb 25, 2008)

I pray to God that situation never happens. Wow, I see defense lawyers in a lot of futures here. You call 911 and REPORT IT. Thats what you do.
Justification and a court of law bump heads all the time. I don't want to scare anyone here but since we should all be adults on this forum, I'll put this fact out there. You can be convicted of 1st degree murder shooting and killing that BG in this situation. Why? Well I'll explain it to the best of my exp & ability.
1- Lets say you're a marksman with your pistol or whatever(I'm givng you a dead on highly skilled clean headshot here).
You drop that bad guy. He's dead waiting for meat wagon.
2- here comes a serious reality, YOUR life wasn't threatened, the clerk's was(and that can be one of many of the prosecuters power statement).
3- I'll say it again. YOUR life wasnt threatened, soneone ELSE's life was.
You can appear as a gun toting vigilante just waitng to pop someone whom got a lucky opportunity with an alledged robber, to those detectives in just seconds while at that crime scene. How in the hell?
4- maybe that guy had a mental problem, maybe the gun wasnt loaded, maybe it was a bb gun, maybe she was _*trying*_ to talk her way out of it and it was working until you blowed his head across the cigarette cases? Did you know any of that at such a distance away? But who would take the time to find out in a situtation like that right? Wrong. They consider licesned gun holders to be super sanely responsible with their firearms and situtations. They trust you enough to allow you to carry it, you are suppose to be responible enough to act within safety and defensive boundaries.
And at 35 yards? Thats unacceptable range for reason to shoot with surety of accuracy. Because thats pretty darn far to make a good hit with that adrenline flowing, excitement and time racing. 
Its like this, at that far away, how could you determine if the gun was real? What was really being said? If you heard him say he was gonna kill her? If he had already gotten the money and was telling her to lay down so he could make his get away? Were you able to call 911? Did you? Why or why not? 
Are you prepared to answer all those questions right after you've just shot a real person...on purpose?
This may sound scary or unreal but, this does and has happened many times. And the results have been folks being convicted of 1st degree murder.

Last but not least,
5- Nine times out of ten, your shot will be from the back. Or at a side of the back. I mean because in order to be truly justified you would have had to made the shot to his front. Which is gonna be pretty darn hard to do if he's already drawn and pointed, with finger on trigger. So you basically shot a guy in the back of the head and killed him.

Think about this.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Its incredible the number of 'heroes' out to save the "innocent" clerk, presumed female. My response is addressed to those who see acting responsibly as an insult to their manliness.

A long time ago in a former life, we were trained to gather intel to ID armed BGs, and only then use overwhelming violence neutralize anyone with a weapon in the target area and flexicuff everyone else. Even if you are retrieving a known hostage, you deliver them in restraints. *THIS IS NOT A ONE MAN JOB!!!*

As a civvie in a store you don't know shit about the situation. All you see a guy holding a gun on someone else, 35yds away. You don't know if there are accomplices roaming the aisles or if the 'hostage' is an accomplice/girl friend who might just kill you for your trouble. You just don't have the personnel or equipment for the necessary intel.

With a gun on the hostage, its not enough to just kill the BG. You have to ensure relaxation of all voluntary muscles. Unless you score a hit (at 35yards!) on the bad guy's medulla oblongata, a headshot is likely to cause the BG to reflexively spasm, shooting the hostage. And poof, you've gone from hero to zero.

Even with a laser sight zeroed for bullet drop at 35 yards and an intimate knowledge of crainial anatomy, distance marksmanship is not a 'quick draw' skill. In the time it takes for you to settle your aim, it is just as likely for the BG to notice the laser, and move behind the hostage. Backtracking the laser, the BG has a target designator to shoot you, and alert any accomplices nearby. Pissing off the BG does nothing to improve the safety of the hostage, bystanders or yourself. By making things worse, you're still at zero and no hero.

Don't confuse a handgun with a sniper rifle.

Calling 911 is still the best bet for your first move.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

wboggs said:


> That's OK, there are people like you in the World.


Yup, and there's people like you in the world; people who have seen one too many action movies and think they have a duty to save the world because they have a gun.



wboggs said:


> you've got to hope that the guy you just stood there and witnessed slaughter an innocent person doesn't kill you or one of your family members before he gets caught.


 He wouldn't because my family would be safely behind me, 30 yards away from him. He wouldn't even know I was there. Especially since I don't have a "master plan" of pointing my laser at him and getting his attention, like in the movies. All that's going to do is get a bullet sent my way.



wboggs said:


> I couldn't live with it, I guess you could; that's the difference between you and me. Just dont call me names or belittle me because you're so cold.


It's not cold, it's realistic and rational. I'm not making my wife a widow and my kids an orphan so I could play hero. And I didn't call you names or belittle you, but since it seems OK for you to call me a coward and cold, I can certainly can start slinging the mud if that's what you'd prefer as it seems it's the language you understand.

This debate seems pointless. As neither of us are willing to see the other's opinions as valid we should each just go our separate ways. I'll just go back to the world of reality and you go over to your world with your mall ninja, Jack Bauer fantasies (I assume you'd have your CCW badge out by now, all good sheepdogs have them, so I know you have one) and then either scaring off the gunman with your big, bad laser (I can't remember what show or movie it's from, but I'm sure it's been in at least one Lethal Weapon plus a bunch more) or you taking him out with a high-pressure, 30+ yard shot, through people; all while standing up on your soapbox calling the rest of us cowards, cold, inhuman, and insulting our abilities to shoot just because most of here have enough common sense to know a shot at that distance is completely asinine.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

wboggs said:


> You know, I used to be a volunteer fireman; I would risk my life to save you and your property and it almost cost me my life three times. You know what I didn't say? Those people whose houses are burning down with them or their children in them could have become a volunteer fireman too and save themselves.


Again, something you _signed_ up to do, You _volunteered_ to do it. Big difference here that you are clearly missing. By getting a CCW, you *do not volunteer* to be a public guardian. Don't go insulting people who know the difference just because you don't.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

lovain1932 said:


> I'd like to respond to Todds comment about looking out for himself but what if the cashier was your teenage daughter would you want someone to take action in your absence?


Hey, I won't lie, I'd love it if someone took action and I would be ever grateful. However, I don't view it as someone's moral or legal obligation to do something, unless you have a job, that you _volunteered_ for, knowing the risks, that requires you to protect the public. I also don't _expect_ any *civilian* to widow or orphan their families for mine. If my daughter was hurt, I wouldn't be screaming, "Why didn't someone with a gun do something?" Having a CCW *DOES NOT* make you an automatic hero or LEO or bad ass, which unfortunately, some people here on this thread seem to feel. We are simply people who have passed some background checks, sat through a class (in some states) and passed a very basic shooting proficiency test, thus allowing us to carry a gun under our shirts. Nothing more. Unless you train at that distance and/or have extensive military or LE training, I think you're a fool to take that shot since your apt to do more harm than good. Hell, you'd probably be the one to shoot my daughter, not the BG, from 30 yards.


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## polyguy (May 4, 2007)

Doing anything other than dialing 911 and creating a hiding space & being ready to protect yourself seems "Hollywood" to me in this scenario. Too many factors outweighing those of the goal of prevention.

Just a few weeks ago, a friend of mine, his father was in a store that was being robbed. He got into a corner crouched down pulled his 38, and said "whichever one would've come back there would've got it". Cops later caught both robbers. My friend's dad is ok, and so are the store employees...

Be a hero by silently motioning to other customers to get down & hide.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

polyguy said:


> Just a few weeks ago, a friend of mine, his father was in a store that was being robbed. He got into a corner crouched down pulled his 38, and said "whichever one would've come back there would've got it". Cops later caught both robbers. My friend's dad is ok, and so are the store employees...


Now there's a man with common sense. :smt023


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

wboggs said:


> So that's the only outcome that can be expected? If you've got a crystal ball that's that good, then you would know exactly what to do.


I don't have a crystal ball, but I have seen enough shooting under stress to know that the _overwhelming_ majority of people don't possess nearly the skill nor cool under pressure that would be required to make a single head shot with a service-grade handgun. I will assume your cool-guy laser sights are of course precisely zeroed, and that you can precisely estimate the range so you know exactly where your single round will strike.



> You give the BG far too much credit to be of sound enough mind to kill someone who is no threat to him because that's his mission instead of freaking out that there's a gun other than his in the building and at best defending himself against the gun shooting at him.


I will not make the mistake of underestimating my opponent. I have seen the results of that first-hand way too many times. Maybe he'll run at the shot - when I miss my 35-yard head shot attempt - or maybe he'll pop the clerk and then start shooting at me. Or maybe he'll pop the clerk and, not knowing where my shot came from, will start randomly shooting bystanders. Now I will have turned this scenario into a bloodbath that might have been avoided had I simply stayed quiet or fled.



> You've possibly spent to much time at war to understand the difference between a coward robbing the cash for his next fix verses someone whose job is to kill the ones with a particular uniform on. Your prediction reflects a war scenario;


You can tell me about war scenarios, and my mistakes about them, when I know which war _you've_ been in.

Surely you realize that the overwhelming majority of armed robberies do not result in a dead clerk. By opening fire in this scenario, you are _exponentially_ increasing the chances of the clerk (or a bystander) being killed - all so you can feel like a hero and look at yourself happily in the mornings when you shave.



> For some reason you give BG's tremendous mental superiority when in fact they are cowards scared to death themselves hoping the gun thing wins his desire.


So now your plan to is simply to shoot to _scare him away_? This is an even worse plan than shooting him in the head. You have _absolutely no idea_ what he is going to do when bullets start whizzing by him. You're right, he may run - which is probably what he'll do after he takes the money, anyway - but he may start killing people. Cowards (not that you'd actually know he's a coward) in a panic tend to do unpredictable things.



> Now that makes a lot of sense, "lets forget about the superior fight stopping power the laser sights have a proven track record of"...


Okay, put down the Crimson Trace marketing pamphlet and carefully step away from it. Lasers are an excellent product for a very limited set of circumstances, and I think CT makes the best. They are very useful for shooting on the move and from awkward positions. But if the guy doesn't know you're there, why in the world do you think he'll be looking at his chest for a little red dot? Why do you assume said little red dot will make him pee his pants and run home to momma? Is it because people who _sell lasers for a living_ said so?



> what you're saying is ignore what ought to happen and pretend we cant shoot with a laser beam directing us. Maybe you should go back and read the scenario again


Maybe you should read my post again. I said that lasers do not help trembling hands and the trigger mashing that very often occurs under moments of extreme stress. This has been very well documented in police and training industry literature.



> but with the anonymity of the carrier in the scenario, if you have any ability to cool your head since the guy isn't standing in front of you ready to pull the trigger on you (meaning you are so far removed that it should be more like target shooting on Sunday afternoon),


And now the real amateurs reveal themselves! If you really think that shooting a real live human being is *anything* like a "target shooting on a Sunday" at your nice manicured square range, that tells me that either (a) you're a sociopath, or much more likely (b) you've never had a human being in your sights, or illuminated by your pretty red laser dot.



> you could certainly find something in a store with SHELVES to rest your gun on and take a sniper shot at a totally unsuspecting target.


I don't know what you're smoking, but it sure must be good! Rest all you want on the shelves. The guy in your sights will be moving, threatening, angry, and dangerous. This is nothing like shooting a nice round little bullseye in the relaxed atmosphere of the shooting range. If you're not feeling a lot of stress, then it's not a deadly situation, and you are not justified in firing.



> From a bench with my 1911, 45 I can hang a target with a 3/4 inch bull and fire one shot at that target and retrieve a bulls eye.


Congrats. Now try this: run a mile, do pushups until your muscles fail, coat your hands with something slippery, start your shot timer, and hit a moving 4" target at 35 yards while having someone scream in your ear. This might give you a rough approximation of a situation less stressful than the one we're talking about.

Please get back to us with the results of your test.



> If you couldn't hit a persons head off the bench with adjusted laser sights then learn to shoot.


If you can't see the difference in shooting a paper target on a calm range, and shooting a violent human being, then learn to distinguish mall ninja fantasy from actual reality.



> Personally I would rather end up dead myself trying to save a fellow man than to do nothing.


Personally, I would rather not get anyone killed by taking a stupid action that only increases the danger to everyone present.

I hope your wife and children agree that it would be better for you to be dead than some random stranger. Their husband, father and _protector_ will be gone, all so he could feel good about "doing something," even if it was rash and stupid.



> Now pardon me while I go bathe.


Pardon me while I roll my eyes as I hear the cry of "Mall ninjas of the world unite!"


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

wboggs here, A. K. A. sheepdog, A. K. A. sheepeople, for those who dont think I'm being called names. Just because you're sneaky aggressive name calling doesn't make in not name calling. You sir are calling names because I am not a sheepoeple not a sheepdog; I'm describing your character and you admitted shooting skills; coward and bad shot.

In you state it may be different but in Pennsylvania you have an equal freedom to protect the life of anyone else with deadly force *IF YOU FEEL *THERE IS A *THREAT TO THAT PERSONS OR YOUR LIFE*. That includes toy guns and unloaded guns; common, get real, you're not required to ask to see if the gun is loaded the determine if you can shoot. Nor are you expected to first determine if the gun is a toy or not if the toy looks reasonably like a gun. Now I wouldn't shoot if the BG pulled out a screaming yellow, space ship shaped squirt gun (get the picture or are you going to go anal on me with these details?).

And Todd, yes I volunteered to be a fireman for no pay risking my life, and I also signed up to carry a weapon to protect human life within the confines of the law and that law allows for protecting others with no distance requirement. Yes if the threat is towards you and you alone at 35 to 40 yards (whatever we are assuming here) running is a good first option since you have a pretty good distance advantage and shooting on the run is seldom successful for a BG who usually cant shoot at all.

NOT A ONE MAN JOB???!!!! What a weak excuse to chicken out of helping someone. Seriously, if you have reservations about using deadly force that are that far reaching, you really ought to reconsider your carrying a gun. Because if you're not prepared to draw and use it, you will more likely get killed than help yourself or anybody else. Hesitation is the biggest killer of people who carry. You have 3 seconds to draw and shoot first, thinking how many men you need to fully investigate how many others are involved and assessing the situation will cost you and the clerk their lives. If you dont get formal training, at least search the Internet and read all you can about gun fight tactics. There are many videos that you can watch and see the urgency in acting that doesn't allow for "lets make sure we have the whole situation considered", what would you do interview everybody else first?

And who said "moral and legal requirement"? First of all there are very few laws left that have a moral foundation since we've become such a "Progressive" society; first our anything goes sexually which followed the destruction of family in America (what a surprise). I never said there was a legal requirement, there is just a legal permission to protect you and your neighbor with deadly force, from deadly force without prosecution and deadly force does not have to be a gun and can be a toy gun reasonably resembling a real gun. What I'm saying is since there is legal permission to act, mankind has a moral obligation to do the acting.

Tactical training says that you have three seconds or less, should you really dial 911 for those three seconds? And if you think you are so very vulnerable to be prosecuted for killing an armed robber violently threatening a teen aged clerk as the crown of people within mire feet of the actor are crapping their pants hoping to live??? and you think you're all buy yourself defending your actions? My bet is every person within feet will be there returning the favor of saving their life testifying about what a hero you were.

Tell us this; you get a call from the police to come to the 7/11 (so some people can believe it) to identify your teen aged son/daughters body and while your there witnessing the carnage a man walks by and tells you he carries a gun for just these situations but he didn't want to risk his life stopping the crook and let you child die. Tell me how you feel right now...:smt022:smt076

This thread is clearly unretrievable since those who would act in the most selfish way are determined to justify their position for which there is no justification. I give up, especially since every rational post brings an even more irrational excuse to be a coward; watched too many movies, cant happen in a video shop, and on, and on. Just admit it to yourselves, we already know who you are, there's no reason to admit it to use but admit it to yourself and quit dancing around it; you;re selfish and cold enough to watch an innocent person die when you could have stopped it and this badgering will end. But I'm done with this one, these threads usually end up like this.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

wboggs said:


> You know, I used to be a volunteer fireman; I would risk my life to save you and your property and it almost cost me my life three times. You know what I didn't say? Those people whose houses are burning down with them or their children in them could have become a volunteer fireman too and save themselves.


And as a soldier, the times I've been exposed to direct and indirect fire, I didn't say that everyone in America should become a soldier. But we both *volunteered* to put ourselves in harm's way. However, when I take off my ACUs, the mere fact that I have a CCW doesn't mean I have an obligation to protect anyone but myself and my family. I may choose to do so under some circumstances, but I will do it intelligently. It will _not_ be an extremely risky 35-yard head shot, regardless of whether my Glock has a laser sight on it (and two of my three Glocks do).

And that's really my point. There are times when intervention can be conducted intelligently, and other times when it's more likely to get an innocent person hurt or killed. This scenario falls into the latter category. Life is hard. It's harder when you do stupid things.



> Play out the scenario two different ways; one a coward says I'm looking out for me and to hell with the poor victim and one a responsible citizen who has the warewithal to save the potential victim. The first guy leaves and announces his ability to save the victim and blames them for being dead because they didn't carry a gun like you but you looked out for yourself and let the victim die. The second walks up to bring comfort to the person he saved making sure the BG is disabled and the area is safe. Geezzz I wonder what the difference would be in the crowds reaction to the two different men?


Geez, I wonder what the crowd's reaction would be when you missed and hit the clerk, or missed and the bad guy's startle response makes him shoot the clerk, or missed and the bad guy got pissed and started shooting members of the crowd.

And I wonder what a jury's reaction would be if any of the above happened, rather than your fairy tale about saving the day?

The fact that you even care about the crowd's opinion of you just shows that you are doing this not out of some misguided, but perhaps moral, sense of altruism. Rather, it demonstrates your desire to be a hero, and to be adored by the crowd for saving them. Hey, maybe there will even be a Hooter's Girl in the crowd and you'll get laid!

It's not selfishness to want to do things intelligently, rather than stupidly, it's just _smart_. I have no desire to be a hero to anyone but my daughter, thanks, and I will try to do that with my mind and my example - not my pistol.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

This thread is now out of hand. I see *wboggs* posted some name calling ("coward and bad shot") while I was writing my second post.

Thread closed.


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