# one shot stops



## Packard

What round do you believe is the single best round for one shot stops?

I think it would have to be between the .357 and the .45.

I pick the .357 in 124grain. Federal is my favorite, but at that muzzle velocity (about 1,400 fps) almost all of them expand reliably.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

stopping WHAT? shot placement WHERE? any other factors? ie drug use by human target, momma bear with cub etc etc?


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## 1jimmy

I think 40 cal would cover all human situations, 10mm and 45 are a good stopping rounds. 357 a lot of times has to much penetration.
For a good learning experience go on internet and put in hickock 45 knock down power on you tube, i think you will enjoy it.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

i seriously dont think i could stop at one shot..... after all these years its still.... acquire target, double tap, acquire next target...


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## VAMarine

25mm HEIT, if you're not packing this, you're wrong.


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## Packard

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i seriously dont think i could stop at one shot..... after all these years its still.... acquire target, double tap, acquire next target...


I wasn't talking tactics, just ballistics.

As for tactics, I always trained double tap to each and then return for a single head shot for each.

I think the 158 grain .38 has more chance of over-penetration than a 124 grain .357s.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it now, I think "over-penetration" is an abused term. It includes poorly placed shots (over-penetration after the bad guy gets an arm wound, etc.) and the damage cannot be what they make it out to be.

If a defensive round puts out 485 foot pounds of energy and penetrates 12 inches. And if the average male torso is 22 cm (about 9") you will lose about 3/4 of the potential in overpenetration. So the over-penetrated bullet will have about 120 feet pounds of energy left and about 3" of penetration. A problem, but one of .32 caliber magnatude. These numbers become lower if you take into account that the "average" male torso thickness is of a naked man. Clothing will reduce the energy and penetration too.

All I'm saying is that over-penetration as a killer is not that likely; a missed-shot-penetration is a bad situation. As is a flesh wound on the torso which will not slow down a bullet very much at all.

I recall seeing a TV show where the bad guy tossed some bullets into a fire so that they would explode and kill people. I said, "If you died from a bullet tossed in the fire, you were scheduled to die that day anyhow. There is almost no energy in an un-contained bullet. Most certainly this idea came from an old western movie where black poweder would explode and a decent amount of energy could be expected.

I don't see over-penetration as an issue for any lightly constructed bullet in most service calibers. A very heavy bullet, say a 220 grain in a .40 caliber might be an area of concern as would be a .230 grain full military jacketed .45. But most service bullets are more lightly constructed and travel faster in hopes of expansion.

I worry about hitting my target, and not about over-penetration.


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## Packard

VAMarine said:


> 25mm HEIT, if you're not packing this, you're wrong.


What kind of holster are you using?

Is over-penetration an issue here too?

I like these: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/rpg-intro.jpg

Though I would be reluctant to use on in a closed elevator.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

Packard said:


> I wasn't talking tactics, just ballistics.
> 
> As for tactics, I always trained double tap to each and then return for a single head shot for each.


if you are going to double tap anyway, i dont understand the reason for the question..... IF you follow your training you are not going to stop and evaluate the effectiveness of your first shot BEFORE sending the second shot down the pipe. seems like alot of slide rules and physics and ballistic gelatin and debate over a mute point. one shot capability doesnt matter if your are going to pull the trigger twice anyway.


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## Steve M1911A1

Packard said:


> I wasn't talking tactics, just ballistics...I recall seeing a TV show where the bad guy tossed some *bullets* into a fire so that they would explode and kill people...Most certainly this idea came from an old western movie where black poweder [sic] would explode and a decent amount of energy could be expected...[emphasis added]


Ordinary handgun "bullets" don't explode. Handgun _cartridges_ will burst in a fire, and their cartridge-case fragments _may_ cause some real harm, although their bullets won't. Black-powder handgun cartridges will behave about the same as those loaded with smokeless powder.

It is possible to make a "one shot stop" with a .22 rimfire pistol. It just depends upon where you make your hit, and what the "target"'s sensitivity to pain is. I would imagine that a .22 rimfire hit to an eye might result in a "one shot stop."
Conversely, a peripheral hit made with any handgun bullet will probably not result in a stop of any kind, much less a "one shot stop." Several peripheral hits may not result in a stop, either.

As always, theoretical discussion has to give way to practical reality. The only way anyone would ever be able to make a definite "one shot stop" would be by paying close attention to shot placement.
Shot placement will trump theoretical ballistics, almost every time.


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## ozzy

Melon shot in double tap. I carry a few calibers and all will work in the right situation. Then again it's mob week on tv this week, Go Michael Corleone!!!!!!:smt033


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## zhurdan

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ordinary handgun "bullets" don't explode. Handgun _cartridges_ will burst in a fire, and their cartridge-case fragments _may_ cause some real harm, although their bullets won't. Black-powder handgun cartridges will behave about the same as those loaded with smokeless powder.
> 
> It is possible to make a "one shot stop" with a .22 rimfire pistol. It just depends upon where you make your hit, and what the "target"'s sensitivity to pain is. I would imagine that a .22 rimfire hit to an eye might result in a "one shot stop."
> Conversely, a peripheral hit made with any handgun bullet will probably not result in a stop of any kind, much less a "one shot stop." Several peripheral hits may not result in a stop, either.
> 
> As always, theoretical discussion has to give way to practical reality. The only way anyone would ever be able to make a definite "one shot stop" would be by paying close attention to shot placement.
> Shot placement will trump theoretical ballistics, almost every time.


 Indeed Steve. It's called a CNS shot. Central nervous system shot. the only real way to stop a fight . that requires accuracy over caliber all day long . learn to shoot what you carry and make shot placement the important factor in any engagement .


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## Steve M1911A1

*zhurdan*;
CNS shot: Best placement is center-of-throat, immediately below the jaw line, I think. Is this correct?


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## Packard

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ordinary handgun "bullets" don't explode. Handgun _cartridges_ will burst in a fire, and their cartridge-case fragments _may_ cause some real harm, although their bullets won't. Black-powder handgun cartridges will behave about the same as those loaded with smokeless powder.
> 
> It is possible to make a "one shot stop" with a .22 rimfire pistol. It just depends upon where you make your hit, and what the "target"'s sensitivity to pain is. I would imagine that a .22 rimfire hit to an eye might result in a "one shot stop."
> Conversely, a peripheral hit made with any handgun bullet will probably not result in a stop of any kind, much less a "one shot stop." Several peripheral hits may not result in a stop, either.
> 
> As always, theoretical discussion has to give way to practical reality. The only way anyone would ever be able to make a definite "one shot stop" would be by paying close attention to shot placement.
> Shot placement will trump theoretical ballistics, almost every time.


Modern smokeless powders burn; black powder explodes. With the slower burning smokeless powder the bullet will separate from the cartridge at which time no further propulsion is exerted as the bullet is not contained within a barrell to direct the expanding gasses.

Black powder is explosive and a larger percentage of the energy will be directed at the bullet prior to the bullet and the cartridge separating. So that projectile will have considerably greater force.

But if you get killed by either of these scenarios, I is my position that it was your day to go and if the bullet didn't get you, the poison wine would have.


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## Packard

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *zhurdan*;
> CNS shot: Best placement is center-of-throat, immediately below the jaw line, I think. Is this correct?


When I used to practice with my Berretta (950??) in .25 caliber I used to "stitch up" the bad guy target. First shot in the solarplexus (just beneath the sternum bone), second shot in the throat, next shot in the mouth, then the nose.

It is doubtful that a .25 will penetrate the sternum--it may or may not. The throat will allow penetration, as will the mouth. The nose is an iffy shot, but a shot to the forehead is very iffy for a .25.

I am trying to remember if the Berretta I had (single action only) had a 7 or 8 round magazine. I'm not sure anymore. But either 8 or 9 total rounds of .25 would deal with 2 assailants.

A 5 shot revolver in .38 will deal with 2 or maybe 3 bad guys. But the increased velocity of a .357 from that same weapon might deal with 4 or 5 bad guys.

Addendum: I just looked it up and it was indeed the Berretta Jetfire 950, single action only, 8 round magazine + 1.


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## zhurdan

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *zhurdan*;
> CNS shot: Best placement is center-of-throat, immediately below the jaw line, I think. Is this correct?


Given time, yes. The throat does not present a very large target though. In a defensive situation, there's probably not going to be a lot of time, so what I've been taught is to put rounds to the direct center of the body until you have time to assess and take a more critical shot (talking about a matter of a few seconds). 3-4 rounds of anything is probably going to take the fight out of most people barring drug crazed or flat out crazy people.


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## Steve M1911A1

Packard said:


> Modern smokeless powders burn; black powder explodes. With the slower burning smokeless powder the bullet will separate from the cartridge at which time no further propulsion is exerted as the bullet is not contained within a barrell to direct the expanding gasses.
> 
> Black powder is explosive and a larger percentage of the energy will be directed at the bullet prior to the bullet and the cartridge separating. So that projectile will have considerably greater force...


Instead of theorizing, try it sometime. You will be surprised.



zhurdan said:


> Given time, yes. The throat does not present a very large target though. In a defensive situation, there's probably not going to be a lot of time, so what I've been taught is to put rounds to the direct center of the body until you have time to assess and take a more critical shot (talking about a matter of a few seconds). 3-4 rounds of anything is probably going to take the fight out of most people barring drug crazed or flat out crazy people.


I should've been clearer: I meant "in the physiological sense." The neck, just below the head, offers the most direct route for causing damage to the central nervous system.
I, too, think that the throat is much too small a target for practical-defense use.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

Packard said:


> Modern smokeless powders burn; black powder explodes. With the slower burning smokeless powder the bullet will separate from the cartridge at which time no further propulsion is exerted as the bullet is not contained within a barrell to direct the expanding gasses.
> 
> Black powder is explosive and a larger percentage of the energy will be directed at the bullet prior to the bullet and the cartridge separating. So that projectile will have considerably greater force.


BOTH smokeless and blackpowders BURN, they are considered LOW explosives because they do NOT detonate but deflagrate (burn at a fast rate).

and the energy is not directed at the bullet, the pressure created by the burning propellant finds the easiest way out, which is always thru the weakest material. this is why a cartridge expands first in the chamber until the chamber walls stop the expansion and then the bullet is in the path of the easiest way out and it is expelled ahead of the escaping gasses. a cartridge tossed into a fire has no support to the sides of the case so they will expand and many times burst as they are the weaker of the materials.


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## Packard

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> BOTH smokeless and blackpowders BURN, they are considered LOW explosives because they do NOT detonate but deflagrate (burn at a fast rate).
> 
> and the energy is not directed at the bullet, the pressure created by the burning propellant finds the easiest way out, which is always thru the weakest material. this is why a cartridge expands first in the chamber until the chamber walls stop the expansion and then the bullet is in the path of the easiest way out and it is expelled ahead of the escaping gasses. a cartridge tossed into a fire has no support to the sides of the case so they will expand and many times burst as they are the weaker of the materials.


You explained it more elegantly than I did. But do you believe that you could get killed by a projectile from one of them? I think that unless there was an exceptional crimp the bullet would quickly separate and the gasses would escape from the sides and you might get hit like someone throwing a small rock.


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## zhurdan

The bullet isn't what goes flying, it's the brass. Mythbusters had a pretty good show concerning this. Even had a .50cal round in the fire.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell

Packard said:


> You explained it more elegantly than I did. But do you believe that you could get killed by a projectile from one of them? I think that unless there was an exceptional crimp the bullet would quickly separate and the gasses would escape from the sides and you might get hit like someone throwing a small rock.


you can get killed by ANYTHING, a supposition makes no scientific conclusion, its just a supposition. so, yes i think that a person could get killed , even a piece of flying brass is a piece of shrapnel, a pebble striking you in the right place can nick an artery .....

there is a theory called the magic bb, its said a bb can shoot down an air plane..... if the bb enters a jet engine and strikes a fan blade just right it can cause an imbalance which leads to a high speed wobble which can cause the fan to disintegrate and get sucked into the rest of the engine which caused catastrophic failure and then the plane crashes. but WILL it happen? i dunno, but it CAN .... will a cartridge tossed into a fire kill someone? i dunno, but it CAN


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## clockworkjon

This:










/thread :mrgreen:


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## kg333

:smt082

KG


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## XD40Colorado

One shot stops are a myth. Unless you hit someone in the face or temporal region, or possibly the heart. A 22LR will kill someone if you hit them in those areas.


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## zhurdan

XD40Colorado said:


> One shot stops are a myth. Unless you hit someone in the face or temporal region, or possibly the heart. A 22LR will kill someone if you hit them in those areas.


Yeah... otherwise known as a CNS shot.


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## rgrundy

zhurdan said:


> Yeah... otherwise known as a CNS shot.


You mean practice like this?

‪Put a Smile on Your Enemy's Face‬‏ - YouTube


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## cooper623

as others have said, shot placement is everything, the only way to stop a fight in one shot is to hit someone in the spinal cord, heart, or brain. if you hit any of those, caliber is irrelevant. you could shoot someone in the stomach with .50 BMG and they could potentially keep fighting, that would have to be one tough son of a bitch though.


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## zhurdan

Not to be picky, but the heart isn't a CNS shot. People can and have continued to fight for up to three minutes with their heart destroyed. The brain can continue to function for that long without blood actively being pumped to it.

The reason a Central Nervous System shot _can_ stop a fight is because the brain can no longer communicate with the rest of the body (muscles). The heart shot has more to do with the individuals willingness to fight rather than a disconnect of the brain to the body.


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## Tuefelhunden

CNS hit = off switch. The triangle shot. Nose, left and right nipples representing the 3 corners and sight picture center mass of triangle. As long as the caliber is enough to make the penetration the rest is acedemic if placement is true. No one keeps going after a CNS disconnect as it is the equivalent of removing head from shoulders or power cord plug from wall outlet. The trick is making that shot (sniper/rifleman) or shots (other less precise small arms). As mentioned the CNS is a rather small target laterally. Hence punches in bunches center mass (of the triangle) especially with handgun cartridges is widely recommended on the theory one of those good shots should make the connection or rather perform the disconnection.


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## ozzy

CNS is that Center Nut Shot? I know that would drop me like a rock. :buttkick:


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## Steve M1911A1

One would be as difficult to accomplish as the other.


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## The_Vigilante

I like my chances with a G20 10mm loaded with DoubleTap 135g with velocity of 1600 fps!!!


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## Steve M1911A1

The_Vigilante said:


> I like my chances with a G20 10mm loaded with DoubleTap 135g with velocity of 1600 fps!!!


I hope nobody lives in the next room, or even next-door! ;-)


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## The_Vigilante

No problem with over-penetration-It fragments.


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## Packard

The_Vigilante said:


> No problem with over-penetration-It fragments.


Yep that's what I've read.


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## Tuefelhunden

10mm is an awesome round but I know I would have trouble with fast accurate follow up shots. Different strokes for different folks. Great round with excellent penetration but I'm one of those who think the FBI got it right moving away from it. Handling that round effectively is not for everyone. Granted my frame of reference is a Glock G20. Would love to give it a go through a heavier Delta Elite or Witness someday.


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## Packard

I was not specific enough when I posed this question, so I will add the specificity now:

This is a Bad Guy target: http://c95946.r46.cf3.rackcdn.com/c...e43594a9c230972d/K/l/Kleen_badguy_tgtProd.jpg

Assuming a single shot in the torso K5 zone, what caliber would you consider to reliably deliver one-shot stops?

I had unfairly eliminated the 10MM because so few carry one. But the G29 from Glock is a viable defensive weapon so I will include it now.

In my mind, the one shot stopping rounds are .357 and .45 and the 10mm.

I think any one of these can reliably yield one shot stops. I think the .357 is better than the .45 and the 10mm is more powerful than either providing you are able to reliably put a round in the K5 zone.

That is my opinion.

I was wanting to hear others. But specifically in the kill zone as shown in the bad guy target (link).


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## jakeleinen1

If I could only choose ONE gun (between a .357, .45, or 10mm) with ONE bullet I personally would pick up the .45 just because I know I (and most people not all) would be the most accurate with the .45.

The .357 has so much felt recoil to me and when I shoot them I feel like I can't hit a damn thing. The 10mm is a sweet caliber one that I will want to own and try sometime in the future. That would be my 2nd pick...

Personally, I own two 9mms because as many have stated, shot placement is what counts, and the size of the bullet doesn't always matter. 2 in the chest one in the head, double tap...


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## Steve M1911A1

Packard said:


> ...Assuming a single shot in the torso K5 zone, what caliber would you consider to reliably deliver one-shot stops?...


I suggest _L'obus antipersonnel de canon System 1897, Type 75mm_, as used by the French and the Americans in WW1.
If you absolutely have to make a close-range, one-shot stop with a torso hit, nothing will do the job better than a 3" cannon loaded with antipersonnel shells.

Of course, you would also need six horses and a six-man crew, but nothing is ever really simple.


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## Baretta

Packard said:


> What round do you believe is the single best round for one shot stops?
> 
> I think it would have to be between the .357 and the .45.
> 
> I pick the .357 in 124grain. Federal is my favorite, but at that muzzle velocity (about 1,400 fps) almost all of them expand reliably.





Packard said:


> What round do you believe is the single best round for one shot stops?
> 
> I think it would have to be between the .357 and the .45.
> 
> I pick the .357 in 124grain. Federal is my favorite, but at that muzzle velocity (about 1,400 fps) almost all of them expand reliably.


The one that hits it's target is the best round for 1 shot stop


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## LostinTexas

One shot stop? It can happen but should never be relied on. No such thing as a magic bullet. Carry what you can shoot fast and accurate, shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. No trophies for second place.


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