# Situational awareness



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

It could save your life. I don't use ATM's. Period! But......if did, I'd never use one after dark, unless I was armed and well aware of what's going on around me.

ATM's after dark are a magnet for the criminal minded.

Video captures moment man is shot and killed at a North Miami Beach ATM | Miami Herald


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Drive up ATM's are some what safer, but one still needs to be alert.......... True that night time is not the best to visit an ATM.........


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Jean and I don't usually use ATMs.
The last time we did, in Los Angeles, some kid tried to rob us at gunpoint.
It didn't work: We had deposited, not withdrawn; and he'd left his Jennings's safety on, so he couldn't shoot as quickly as my cane hit.
(Guns are against the law, in Los Angeles, so we weren't carrying any. Didn't stop the kid, though.)

Nowadays, if we really needed to use an ATM, one of us would stand lookout-and-cover duty for the other.
We can (and do) carry concealed weapons, here in Washington State.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I have never used an ATM in my life and I don't use nor have a debit card. And I have no intention of starting to do either of these, ever.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

A little off topic but not by much. 

Highway rest stops. Be careful! Some of the smaller ones are quite often used to rob / assault people. Especially after hours. When ever we pull into one, I scope it out pretty good before we exit our car. If things don't look or feel right, we drive on. 

Sad that you have to have a survivor mindset, but if you don't, you could end up paying a big price.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Quite a few years back I took a solo drive to California to visit my brother and sister. I was in the middle of no where in Utah and pulled into a rest area. Mine was the only car there, but there were two Native American women with a blanket on the ground selling jewelry. The sun was near setting and the shadows were long, I noticed the shadows of two more people just around the backside of the building. I backed out of my parking space and drove a couple hundred yards up the on ramp, pulled over and peed. As I finished, I saw a Utah State Trooper pulling in to the rest area and the two males that were hiding behind the building running out into the desert. I always wonder what might have happened if I had just not seen the shadows of the two men.

GW


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

paratrooper said:


> A little off topic but not by much.
> 
> Highway rest stops. Be careful! Some of the smaller ones are quite often used to rob / assault people. Especially after hours. When ever we pull into one, I scope it out pretty good before we exit our car. If things don't look or feel right, we drive on.
> 
> Sad that you have to have a survivor mindset, but if you don't, you could end up paying a big price.


Stopped in one outside of Tallahassee in the summer of '93 in the wee hours of the morning with my wife and daughters. Pulled around back and took an hour's nap. Three weeks later a British tourist was murder by some SOB trash 13-year old in that same rest stop.

Yep, rest stops can be very dangerous.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

goldwing said:


> Quite a few years back I took a solo drive to California to visit my brother and sister. I was in the middle of no where in Utah and pulled into a rest area. Mine was the only car there, but there were two Native American women with a blanket on the ground selling jewelry. The sun was near setting and the shadows were long, I noticed the shadows of two more people just around the backside of the building. I backed out of my parking space and drove a couple hundred yards up the on ramp, pulled over and peed. As I finished, I saw a Utah State Trooper pulling in to the rest area and the two males that were hiding behind the building running out into the desert. I always wonder what might have happened if I had just not seen the shadows of the two men.
> 
> GW


Yeah, here in AZ., we have a lot of Native Americans selling jewelry, rugs, paintings, etc., off the side of the road. We've stopped a few times years ago, and never a problem.

But, that was a long time ago.


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## TheReaper (Nov 14, 2008)

Situational awareness is something you should never be without.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

through out history people have always needed to be in survival mode. Even in the best of times evil exist and will act out.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> I have never used an ATM in my life and I don't use nor have a debit card. And I have no intention of starting to do either of these, ever.


The only time when I use an ATM which is rare, is the one in our local supermarket which also has a branch of the bank we have an account with. But you can always get the extra cash from the cashier and it's added to your receipt. It's getting to be pretty much a cashless society. We have our checks done by direct deposit and use our debit card to make purchases. The great thing about direct deposit is that you don't have to wait for the check to arrive in the mail, then go to the bank, deposit your check and then have to wait for the check to clear before you can access the funds. Years ago we'd get our paychecks cashed and deposit the cash in our checking account to pay our bills and keep cash on hand for groceries and such. Or you'd deposit your check and withdraw the needed cash, which is essentially the same thing. I rarely carry anything more than $20 cash anymore. The bad thing about receiving cash is that some thieves would know when it's payday and target people as they leave the bank, follow them out to their vehicles and hold them up there.

No question about it a debit card is a lot more convenient than carrying around a shit load of cash on you. If you lose your wallet you can contact the bank immediately and freeze your account. Lose your wallet with a shit load of cash in it and you're shit outta' luck. You can use a debit card to make on-line or over the phone purchases instead of having to write a check and send it. With a check the vendor will then have to go and deposit your check and wait for the check to clear before sending out your merchandise. Obviously if a thief got ahold of your card they could go ahead and make purchases on the card using the account number and 3 digit security code on the back of the card and essentially wipe out your checking account. Unless of course you notice your card was lost or stolen and right away froze your account.

Some purchases require you to punch in your PIN (Personal Identification Number) without that the card is as useless as tits on a bull. Twice someone had gotten ahold of our debit card account number and tried to make purchases on the card. However the bank knew something was not quite right and notified me before allowing the transactions to take place. I'm guessing it was some employee from a company I had ordered something from that copied my account information and used it to try and make purchases with? They were attempted at a Walmart's in Florida. I'm in Arizona and have never set foot in Florida. Now what we do is buy a pre-paid debit card with a specific amount and use that card to make on-line or over the phone purchases with. This way if the card was lost or stolen the only amount the thief would get was the balance on that particular card. Obviously you can also use cash to buy a pre-paid debit card and use that for on-line or over the phone purchases.

With cash if you go out to buy something you think will cost let's say $100 and when you get to the store find that you're a coupla' bucks short. You then have to either go back home or to the bank if it's open and get the extra cash or go home and come back tomorrow. The other thing good about a debit card is that you can get overdraft protection with it. So if you come up short you can still make the purchase and owe the bank the amount that was overdrawn. Just like with a credit card if you pay the money back on time there's no penalties or interest.

Banks suggest you use your credit card instead of your debit card to make purchases as you can not be held liable for any unauthorized charges if you notify them upon receipt of your statement. It's the bank's money you're using not yours. With a debit card if the bank doesn't suspect any suspicious activity on the card and the thief makes a purchase it's tough shit for you as the money has already been withdrawn and gone. Again with a pre-paid debit card they can't wipe out your entire checking account.

The scariest thing though about a cashless society is that you never have anything tangible, only a statement that reflects your account activity and balances. But one things for sure it's a helluva' lot safer than stuffing your cash under a mattress. If the shit were ever to hit the fan cash would be absolutely worthless anyway. You'd probably be better off stocking up on a commodity such as ammo or any other items that could be used and last indefinitely. In such a scenario those items can always be used to trade and barter for other commodities and will always be in demand. You can also store a lot of it in a relatively small amount of space and in every nook and cranny. It could be the cash of the future? Ammo serves a useful purpose and can be used to hunt food with, and for self defense. Try doing that with a stack of dollar bills, a bucket full of coins or even a brick(s) of silver or gold?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Funny thing, you ask some what it means and all you'll get is a _deer in the headlights_ look. :smt017

Most don't have any clue.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

desertman said:


> The only time when I use an ATM which is rare, is the one in our local supermarket which also has a branch of the bank we have an account with. But you can always get the extra cash from the cashier and it's added to your receipt. It's getting to be pretty much a cashless society. We have our checks done by direct deposit and use our debit card to make purchases. The great thing about direct deposit is that you don't have to wait for the check to arrive in the mail, then go to the bank, deposit your check and then have to wait for the check to clear before you can access the funds. Years ago we'd get our paychecks cashed and deposit the cash in our checking account to pay our bills and keep cash on hand for groceries and such. Or you'd deposit your check and withdraw the needed cash, which is essentially the same thing. I rarely carry anything more than $20 cash anymore. The bad thing about receiving cash is that some thieves would know when it's payday and target people as they leave the bank, follow them out to their vehicles and hold them up there.
> 
> No question about it a debit card is a lot more convenient than carrying around a shit load of cash on you. If you lose your wallet you can contact the bank immediately and freeze your account. Lose your wallet with a shit load of cash in it and you're shit outta' luck. You can use a debit card to make on-line or over the phone purchases instead of having to write a check and send it. With a check the vendor will then have to go and deposit your check and wait for the check to clear before sending out your merchandise. Obviously if a thief got ahold of your card they could go ahead and make purchases on the card using the account number and 3 digit security code on the back of the card and essentially wipe out your checking account. Unless of course you notice your card was lost or stolen and right away and froze your account.
> 
> ...


We bank with Wells Fargo. We use our debits card *A LOT*.

I called WF about a year ago and verified that if our debit card was hacked somehow, would we be covered and have 0 liability? I was told that WF treats a debit card just like a credit card.......as long as you report any fraudulent activity in a timely manner. I was told 48 hrs. is the norm.

I can log-in to our account online to check / verify all activity in both our checking and savings accounts. I do that almost on a daily basis. Sometimes, more than just once.

I'm retired! I got nothing better to do, unless I go for a m/c ride. :smt033


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

For on-line purchases I only use a prepaid card. I keep just enough on the card to keep it active then load it when I need then buy what I want. If it is ever hacked they might get $10.00 and that is it.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

It is not a good idea to use debit cards for internet transactions..............

I have a separate credit card that I only use for online transactions that way I can shut if down, if necessary, and still use my credit card...... Also I use PayPal whenever it is available to charge online........


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Internet purchases I only use a credit card or PayPal. 

My PayPal funds are in an account, separate from our checking / savings account. I usually keep about $150.00 in it.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

desertman said:


> If the shit were ever to hit the fan cash would be absolutely worthless anyway. You'd probably be better off stocking up on a commodity such as ammo or any other items that could be used and last indefinitely. In such a scenario those items can always be used to trade and barter for other commodities and will always be in demand. You can also store a lot of it in a relatively small amount of space and in every nook and cranny. It could be the cash of the future? Ammo serves a useful purpose and can be used to hunt food with, and for self defense. Try doing that with a stack of dollar bills, a bucket full of coins or even a brick(s) of silver or gold?


I'm a bit of a prepper. It is probably my Mormon upbringing at work. The church urges, _"We encourage members worldwide to prepare for adversity in life by having a basic supply of food and water and some money in savings. We ask that you be wise, and do not go to extremes. With careful planning, you can, over time, establish a home storage supply and a financial reserve."_

My dad always kept about a two year supply of nitrogen packed food in a walk-in closet which had a steel door and dead bolt. We'd rotate it over time. It was basic stuff like flour, rice, dried beans and some canned meat products. We also had a 200 gallon water tank for potable water with O2 stabilizer. At the time, I thought it was silly, but guess what I now have?

For money, we know cash would be useless unless as toilet paper, so I have other things. Back in the 1980s, I started buying rolls of 1 oz silver coins from Sunshine Bullion among others. I'd buy a roll about every other paycheck when I could. They're in a safe these days and it is pretty heavy for thieves. That safe is in a secure closet. Gold or larger bars of silver would just be too cumbersome in times of need. During WROL a market could not make change for a gold coin. Not easily, but a one ounce silver coin, yes, and change maybe not needed. I also have a rather large supply of ammo, reloading needs and black powder makings. I also have a very large supply of various common medicines, including pain meds and antibiotics which could be bartered in a pinch. It'd be not legal today but without the rule of law, perfectly acceptable. I keep as much extended release insulin (Lantus) as possible for myself. This along with food and water is right here, so my home is my bugout location.

There's even a plan in place to get my son in law, daughter and grandkids here in time of need. They think it's all a bit silly as I once did, but I laugh and tell them I know where they're going when the Zombies attack. 

ED Goodloe's Aerobic Stabilized Oxygen formerly Aerobic 07 
https://www.disasterstuff.com/store/pc/ED-Goodloe-s-Aerobic-Stabilized-Oxygen-formerly-Aerobic-07-p155.htm

"And Many Will Die for Want of Water" by Nutnfancy


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

A question that I ask of a guy I know was how many ears of corn can you grow on a ingot of gold? They will be very good to have in cases of hyper inflation or depression. If and or when things really go north practical things become more valuable.


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## Blackhawkman (Apr 9, 2014)

In God We Trust.....All others pay CASH....!
We had an old safe that we all kept our money & valuable papers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

tony pasley said:


> A question that I ask of a guy I know was how many ears of corn can you grow on a ingot of gold? They will be very good to have in cases of hyper inflation or depression. If and or when things really go north practical things become more valuable.


Tony, precious metals and gems have always been good to have as money throughout history. With them, you can buy ears of corn from a corn grower or land to plant your own. No matter how bad it gets, there are people who will give their last bite of food for silver and gold. It's the definitive coin of any realm. Other items, more "practical" things may or may not have value, but gold and silver always will. I have other things like ammo and drugs I believe will serve as money, but I know my silver coin will trump them all for the long haul. The worse it gets, the more valuable it becomes. You can break it into smaller pieces or even smash it to dust, and it holds its worth. That's your gold plated, silver lined historical fact from Mesopotamia to Montana and from 3000 BC through today.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

true but with my corn or other foods I can get all the gold from the hungry.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

tony pasley said:


> A question that I ask of a guy I know was how many ears of corn can you grow on a ingot of gold? They will be very good to have in cases of hyper inflation or depression. *If and or when things really go north practical things become more valuable.*


It's kind of like asking someone who's starving what they would rather have? A loaf of bread or a handful of coins? If someone is breaking down your door: A loaded gun or a bar of gold?

If the shit really hits the fan and the United States becomes another Weimer Republic about the only things that will have any value are those items that have any practical value. Guns and especially ammo will be near the top of the list as they will be needed more than ever to fend off the wolves. I have no doubt about it we would be living off the land and back to a time when there was no monetary system. Bartering would replace money. Seed and even horse manure would have more value than precious metals. You can't sprinkle gold dust on the ground and expect things to grow. You're guy is 100% correct.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

tony pasley said:


> true but with my corn or other foods I can get all the gold from the hungry.


See, even you want gold. What makes you think the hungry have gold? You're going to have to farm the entire season, braving insurrection and no law while you're out there plowing a furrow. Meanwhile, I'll have hired a share cropper to plow my fields and some extra armed mercenaries to watch over us. I've got a couple of years worth of food already. Hmmm, maybe I'll buy a milch cow and some pigs to salt down and fill a couple of barrels. Some chickens, ducks, geese and goats too. A few silver coins should do it. I'll buy a nice surrey and a couple of chestnuts to pull it around to come over to your cornfield and invite you to Sunday supper. A fatted calf on the spit with potatoes and butter beans. A couple thousand silver one ounce coins should outlast me and maybe my grandchildren.

Most I bought in the 1990s when they were really not so expensive. I think I averaged around $6.00 per one troy ounce coin. They sell for around $19.00 today when you buy around 100 coins. Even if the end times don't happen, but the dollar collapses on the world market, silver could jump to $50 an ounce. Some say $100 per ounce. If the SHTF who knows? Some speculate that a silver dime from 1955 would fill your tank with gas. Dimes were 90% silver and only a fraction of an ounce. They call old silver coins Junk Silver and it's a bargain. Maybe I should get some in case my 1 oz stuff is a little big to use for everyday spending. That was the reason for silver over gold in the first place. People forget, trading a silver coin for food is barter, and darn good barter at that.

https://www.jmbullion.com/1-oz-sunshine-silver-round/


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Craigh said:


> *Tony, precious metals and gems have always been good to have as money throughout history.* With them, you can buy ears of corn from a corn grower or land to plant your own. No matter how bad it gets, there are people who will give their last bite of food for silver and gold. It's the definitive coin of any realm. Other items, more "practical" things may or may not have value, but gold and silver always will. I have other things like ammo and drugs I believe will serve as money, but I know my silver coin will trump them all for the long haul. The worse it gets, the more valuable it becomes. You can break it into smaller pieces or even smash it to dust, and it holds its worth. That's your gold plated, silver lined historical fact from Mesopotamia to Montana and from 3000 BC through today.


I don't know? I think that only applies with a relatively stable economy over the long run? The prices of precious metals and gems always fluctuates due to economic conditions. However, I think if I was starving or dying of thirst the last thing I'd want was a platter full of precious metals or a glass of gold dust. Or in the case of a complete societal breakdown I'd rather have my guns and ammo if it was an either or type of thing. One things for sure if you've got a stockpile of precious metals and they still retain their value you're sure as hell gonna' need your guns and ammo to defend them or anything else of value for that matter. There's a lot of people that could never afford to invest in precious metals or even invest at all. Pound for pound ammo is a lot cheaper and for some of them probably a better choice. If you can afford both more power to you.

While it's true that precious metals may retain their value because of their rarity and will last forever. But they are only valuable in a monetary system. But what happens if that system collapses if the shit were ever to hit the fan? The only thing those precious metals would be good for is to look at. What is a farmer gonna' do with precious metals when what he really needs is seed and manure? He'll need wood, coal and iron to build the equipment to run his farm. He can exchange the food he grows for those materials and so on. You're certainly not going to make plows out of gold and silver. There's just not enough of it to go around. Not only that gold is too soft and labor intensive to mine. But again we're talking about a complete breakdown in our monetary system which could be caused by any number of things. Will that happen? I seriously doubt it at least not to that degree. We've came out of financial melt downs before and survived them. So I think you'll be safe. But the biggest question is: Could it happen? Yes, absolutely although highly unlikely.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Craigh said:


> See, even you want gold. What makes you think the hungry have gold? You're going to have to farm the entire season, braving insurrection and no law while you're out there plowing a furrow. *Meanwhile, I'll have hired a share cropper to plow my fields and some extra armed mercenaries to watch over us.* I've got a couple of years worth of food already. Hmmm, maybe I'll buy a milch cow and some pigs to salt down and fill a couple of barrels. Some chickens, ducks, geese and goats too. A few silver coins should do it. I'll buy a nice surrey and a couple of chestnuts to pull it around to come over to your cornfield and invite you to Sunday supper. A fatted calf on the spit with potatoes and butter beans. A couple thousand silver one ounce coins should outlast me and maybe my grandchildren.
> 
> Most I bought in the 1990s when they were really not so expensive. I think I averaged around $6.00 per one troy ounce coin. They sell for around $19.00 today when you buy around 100 coins. Even if the end times don't happen, but the dollar collapses on the world market, silver could jump to $50 an ounce. Some say $100 per ounce. If the SHTF who knows? Some speculate that a silver dime from 1955 would fill your tank with gas. Dimes were 90% silver and only a fraction of an ounce. They call old silver coins Junk Silver and it's a bargain. Maybe I should get some in case my 1 oz stuff is a little big to use for everyday spending. That was the reason for silver over gold in the first place. People forget, trading a silver coin for food is barter, and darn good barter at that.
> 
> https://www.jmbullion.com/1-oz-sunshine-silver-round/


But that's only if our monetary system remains intact and survives a worst case scenario. Purchasing power would be a relic of the past and the distant past before there was any monetary system would be the future. You can't eat silver coins or use them to purchase anything without a monetary system.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Getting back to situational awareness, I see those who thrive on being oblivious to their surroundings. Talking on the cell phone sitting still at a green light, blocking the aisle with the shopping cart while reading the ingredients on the box, hell, hunting for golf balls while the group behind you is waiting to tee off. People are so wrapped up in themselves and their little problems that they are a hazard to themselves and the unfortunate folks that have to share this world with them.

I heard this but can not verify that it is fact; More pedestrians are killed while texting than are killed by evil black rifles in America each year. (if that is B.S. I apologize)

GW


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

desertman said:


> But that's only if our monetary system remains intact and survives a worst case scenario. Purchasing power would be a relic of the past and the distant past before there was any monetary system would be the future. You can't eat silver coins or use them to purchase anything without a monetary system.


In a total collapse, nothing has much value. Barter won't work. People have nothing to trade of any value. The concept of trading occurs only when there's production. People have to be producing something others want. Money just makes this more efficient. If nobody is making anything, there won't be apples or silver to worry about.

Think it out. If there is real total collapse, what's going to really happen? We'll lose all public services. That's no water, no power, no FEMA or Red Cross delivering aide, no law enforcement, no firetrucks, no hospitals; nothing! How long can a human live without water? I think it's 3 days. How long before the masses in Los Angeles make a mad exodus out into the countryside? How far will they get before they die? Even the rivers and lakes will be polluted with the dead and other filth. I think you'll have your first mass extinction around 0-50 miles out from medium to major cities. Nobody will care about apples or bullets. They will die of dehydration. Many will die of disease from the water they do drink. Humans can live around 20 days without food but begin failing much sooner. Your second extinction will occur then except for a very few who have longer term access to potable water and food. The groceries will be bare inside of 3 days. All homes within 100 miles of cities which can be raided, will be bare. There will be mass cannibalism.

It will take 3 to 6 months before the few left can start growing food and raising livestock. I would just guess, this country could support only about 10% of its current population without power and irrigation. It might take a generation to have enough horses and mules to produce much of a surplus. I'd say it would take at least 6 months or a year before barter and trade become viable. Then, silver and gold will be priceless for bartering. If Tony has corn, but also wants potatoes, and you have potatoes and corn, you're not going to trade with him. If Tony sells some of his corn for silver then uses the silver to buy some of your potatoes, you can then trade that for a new mule from a guy who needs no corn or potatoes. Money just makes it more efficient to barter. Gold and Silver always have had and always will have that value to be money. It needs no government mint or backing. It needs no stinking "monetary system." It's the universal trade item.


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## AllenFromPa (Dec 4, 2017)

When i use the atm i have someone with me, To keep an extra eye out. And I do the same in return. Our area is not the safe tranquil place it used to be.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Craigh said:


> In a total collapse, nothing has much value. Barter won't work. People have nothing to trade of any value. The concept of trading occurs only when there's production. People have to be producing something others want. Money just makes this more efficient. If nobody is making anything, there won't be apples or silver to worry about.
> 
> Think it out. If there is real total collapse, what's going to really happen? We'll lose all public services. That's no water, no power, no FEMA or Red Cross delivering aide, no law enforcement, no firetrucks, no hospitals; nothing! How long can a human live without water? I think it's 3 days. How long before the masses in Los Angeles make a mad exodus out into the countryside? How far will they get before they die? Even the rivers and lakes will be polluted with the dead and other filth. I think you'll have your first mass extinction around 0-50 miles out from medium to major cities. Nobody will care about apples or bullets. They will die of dehydration. Many will die of disease from the water they do drink. Humans can live around 20 days without food but begin failing much sooner. Your second extinction will occur then except for a very few who have longer term access to potable water and food. The groceries will be bare inside of 3 days. All homes within 100 miles of cities which can be raided, will be bare. There will be mass cannibalism.
> 
> It will take 3 to 6 months before the few left can start growing food and raising livestock. I would just guess, this country could support only about 10% of its current population without power and irrigation. It might take a generation to have enough horses and mules to produce much of a surplus. I'd say it would take at least 6 months or a year before barter and trade become viable. Then, silver and gold will be priceless for bartering. If Tony has corn, but also wants potatoes, and you have potatoes and corn, you're not going to trade with him. If Tony sells some of his corn for silver then uses the silver to buy some of your potatoes, you can then trade that for a new mule from a guy who needs no corn or potatoes. Money just makes it more efficient to barter. Gold and Silver always have had and always will have that value to be money. It needs no government mint or backing. It needs no stinking "monetary system." It's the universal trade item.


Like I said, it would be like it was before there was any monetary system at all. No one can say for sure what the universal trade item would be after an apocalyptic collapse. Civilization would have to start from scratch and it stands to reason that only the items that are the most useful would have the most value.



> Money, in some form, has been part of human history for at least the last 3,000 years. *Before that time, it is assumed that a system of bartering was likely used.*
> 
> Bartering is a direct trade of goods and services - I'll give you a stone axe if you help me kill a mammoth - but such arrangements take time. You have to find someone who thinks an axe is a fair trade for having to face the 12-foot tusks on a beast that doesn't take kindly to being hunted. If that didn't work, you would have to alter the deal until someone agreed to the terms. One of the great achievements of money was increasing the speed at which business, whether mammoth slaying or monument building, could be done.
> 
> ...


Obviously in a worst case scenario it would bomb us back into the stone age. More than likely it would wipe out most of the world's population. However many would manage to survive at which point about the only things of value would be things you could use to survive. Precious metals and gem stones just won't cut it. You can't eat them, you can't drink them, you can't hunt or plant crops with them, you can't build a shelter with them. Because of their scarcity you can't even make tools with them. I'm not even trying to argue that a monetary system isn't the most efficient or whether we need one or not. Or whether precious metals or gemstones are a good or bad investment. My argument is that for the few that survive a worst case scenario items that are useful for survival can be used to barter with each other as they did some 3000 years ago. There are plenty of places throughout the world where people can survive just off the land and people do. After all isn't that what some people are prepping for? An apocalyptic collapse? In which case what would you rather have? The vital necessities to survive or precious metals and gemstones?


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

desertman said:


> Like I said, it would be like it was before there was any monetary system at all.


If you say it enough, it may sound true. LOL Any method of trade is a monetary system. Anything from Apples to gold nuggets. You can float an economy on wheat value but it would be cumbersome. We're just used to paper money and junk coins these days which are based on nothing, not even a promise from the government which minted it. I'm not sure why you bring up "monetary system" as if it means something or is somehow germane to the discussion. Mankind has had some type of monetary system in place for around 5,000 year through good times and strife. Many might define: A monetary system is the set of institutions by which a government provides money in a country's economy. Gold and silver haven't been part of our US system in ages. It's not now nor would it be after the government collapses. That's why it would retain value when no government exists. You can't eat it, but you can't eat bullets either. One has to be consistent. During a long term WROL, apples, water, ammo, silver, meds and many other things will hold value because the survivors will place value on all of them. During a short term WROL, nothing will have much value except protecting what you've prepared and your family from the 90% who will probably die fairly soon.

Imagine a very hot Dallas Texas, July 2020 if all power, water, and government services vanished and there would be no relief. How many people do you think would be alive within 75 miles of the city center after 30 days? Guns and ammo alone won't help much. Planting corn won't either. This is just 30 days and your home needs 2 gallons of water per person per day at a minimum in this weather. For a family of 4, that's 240 gallons of potable drinking water stored in your home just to live 30 days. How many on this forum who think they're prepared have this ready now?


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Hopefully every one here prepares for dealing with or avoiding bad situations that we can have to deal with. Not every one uses the same method. We all need to listen to that small voice that says some thing ain't right here. I have stores and the land to supply more, livestock, and water sources and means to protect. That is my way yours is different let us hope we don't have to find out which as best.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

I have stock piled wooden nickels and Confederate money..... I have enough to last 30 years or so.....  :mrgreen:


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I figure I have about 20 good (?) years left in me. 

I'm thinking nothing will happen in that span of time. I hope..........:watching:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Me, too...
Although I probably have a lot less time than that.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Sorry the quote is " Only the good die young" we will be stuck with you two for a long time yet. 
LOL


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

tony pasley said:


> Hopefully every one here prepares for dealing with or avoiding bad situations that we can have to deal with. Not every one uses the same method. We all need to listen to that small voice that says some thing ain't right here. I have stores and the land to supply more, livestock, and water sources and means to protect. That is my way yours is different let us hope we don't have to find out which as best.


I have faith that you're reasonably prepared. The only concern would be water supply. Many steams, lakes and other sources would probably be fouled for the first number of months. Wells will attract thousands of people quite possibly. Ever seen pictures of 3rd world countries with 1-2 mile long lines at one well, and that one is often powered which should help? The people carry it home in large plastic jugs on their heads or on the sides of a bicycle. They might spend half a day just getting enough water for their family to survive another day or two. None left to water a garden. One of the biggest expenditures of church charities in the US is digging wells in Africa. There just are not enough. Here in the US, if we had a similar situation, I don't think there's enough good wells that could operate without power. Moreover, if I had one of these wells, I don't think I could fire on the women and children standing in line to get water from it. I'd have trouble protecting my own water source. It'd be nice to have a hand crank pump inside my home to augment my stored water. I could more easily defend it. But that's another issue; the need to defend resources and the need to help others where those resources are life and death. This is why I like the idea of neighbors planning together and being prepared together. Like a neighborhood watch zone on a grander scale with a plan for each to do what they are best at and sharing of resources and joint defense.

I just don't think there will be bands of marauding brigands after the first large percentage die off. By then all the grocery stores, unprotected homes, and other repositories will be bare. Those raiding parties will die off at that point and you'll have dehydrated, sick, and starving refugees who would have a hard time raiding anyone, much less a reasonably defended neighborhood. Even if everything starts to come back to normal, these problem will have already taken place in under 45 days. Look at Puerto Rico after Maria and we were pumping in millions. Some still don't have power and still have water problems. That was after a single day event, the hurricane. They have mainland support. Some of those islands don't. We'll never know how many died and are still getting sick.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

desertman said:


> The only time when I use an ATM which is rare, is the one in our local supermarket which also has a branch of the bank we have an account with. But you can always get the extra cash from the cashier and it's added to your receipt. It's getting to be pretty much a cashless society. We have our checks done by direct deposit and use our debit card to make purchases. The great thing about direct deposit is that you don't have to wait for the check to arrive in the mail, then go to the bank, deposit your check and then have to wait for the check to clear before you can access the funds. Years ago we'd get our paychecks cashed and deposit the cash in our checking account to pay our bills and keep cash on hand for groceries and such. Or you'd deposit your check and withdraw the needed cash, which is essentially the same thing. I rarely carry anything more than $20 cash anymore. The bad thing about receiving cash is that some thieves would know when it's payday and target people as they leave the bank, follow them out to their vehicles and hold them up there.
> 
> No question about it a debit card is a lot more convenient than carrying around a shit load of cash on you. If you lose your wallet you can contact the bank immediately and freeze your account. Lose your wallet with a shit load of cash in it and you're shit outta' luck. You can use a debit card to make on-line or over the phone purchases instead of having to write a check and send it. With a check the vendor will then have to go and deposit your check and wait for the check to clear before sending out your merchandise. Obviously if a thief got ahold of your card they could go ahead and make purchases on the card using the account number and 3 digit security code on the back of the card and essentially wipe out your checking account. Unless of course you notice your card was lost or stolen and right away froze your account.
> 
> ...


Direct deposit is a different thing. I was paid by direct deposit for years when I was working. And now that I am retired, I receive all of my monthly stipends via direct deposit. But I don't use ATM machines and I have never used a debit card. Not even sure I have one but my bank thinks I do. If I did, it would be in one of my safes and I've checked and not seen it there. I use checks, cash, or credit cards for my purchases, depending upon specific factors. And when I go on vacation to the Southeastern shores, I use cash only.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I've been nervous about using a debit card for a long time. We pay for all of our groceries and such with one. So much faster than writing out a check. I don't see many checks being used at grocery stores. 

So far, no problems. Think I'll call Wells Fargo again today and just verify again, that they treat their debit cards just like their credit cards. Peace of mind if nothing else.

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with WF. They said that their debit card has the same protection as any of their credit cards do. 0 liability on behalf of the customer for any fraudulent use.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

On this little island, we use checks to pay for everything.
It's very convenient, and no ID is ever required (except at the Post Office).
Makes accounting easier, too.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

You can't assume a car stop is going to be nothing more than a car stop. 

Can't get link to work. Sorry. I'll try again later.


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