# Rails on handguns..um i hate em' took my 92sf and went thru some ammo had a guy



## stlbob (Mar 5, 2013)

Come up to me during a cease fire and his Beretta ahs the rail under the front and he asked how old my guns was,i have no clue is there a serial number look up place for the 92SF..?
Then a comment i own 2 Sigs my Beretta and a Ruger and NONE have rails.I am of the opinon they are useless.I know you can hang a flashlight and or laser hell i saw an ad for a bayonet for a railed gun,jusy not my thing.


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## auburnDistrict (Oct 11, 2012)

Well, they look cool....

Also if you wanted to keep a flashlight on one for home defense, I can see that being useful in a pinch. It's dark, someone's broken into your house, and your gun is closer than the light switch down the hall...


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...And you point your pistol down the hall, at the approaching footsteps, you switch on your gun-mounted flashlight, and you find that you've drawn a fine bead on your daughter, coming home from a date.
Or you enter the room from where the suspicious noise was coming, and you switch on the pistol-mounted flashlight, only to be hit from the first round out of the bad guy's gun, because your brightly lit flashlight gave him a really easy-to-see target.

Mounting a light on a gun may not be the best tactical solution out there. There are much better ways of handling these situations.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

I have one hand gun that has a rail on the dust cover, but no accessories for it...can't afford them.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

^ Very true Steve... you have a habit of making sense, lol.

We use lights on our duty weapons, but we use handheld flashlights for searching homes & buildings.... remember muzzle dicipline. You don't want to sweep or "laser" family members or friendlies. Keep flashlights next to your HD guns, problem solved.


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## auburnDistrict (Oct 11, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And you point your pistol down the hall, at the approaching footsteps, you switch on your gun-mounted flashlight, and you find that you've drawn a fine bead on your daughter, coming home from a date.
> Or you enter the room from where the suspicious noise was coming, and you switch on the pistol-mounted flashlight, only to be hit from the first round out of the bad guy's gun, because your brightly lit flashlight gave him a really easy-to-see target.
> 
> Mounting a light on a gun may not be the best tactical solution out there. There are much better ways of handling these situations.


So what you're saying is that their purpose is none other than to look cool. Ok, I can accept that. As long as we're clear.

Obviously "drawing a bead on your daughter" does not apply if you don't have a daughter. And even if I did, I would rather have the light and know that it's her than be in the dark and have to make a split-second assumption. Everyone's situation is different.

As for the second scenario it's not easy to see a target with a bright light pointed into your eyes. Again, not an expert, but I think being temporarily blinded is kinda disorienting. I know it hurts me to have a flashlight pointed into my face, maybe more grizzled veterans aren't phased by it.

I don't really see how having a flashlight next to your HD gun solves the problem, since according to the point above you are still wafting a light beam around presenting yourself as a target (assuming you haven't disoriented your intruder, daughter, grandmother, etc.) The only difference now is that your weapon is being held by one hand (instead of two, thereby reducing accuracy and chance of missing/hitting someone besides your target) plus the chance is greater that your weapon is likely not pointed in the direction it needs to be. If we're being technical about it, as we should, it's our lives and families at stake, I don't think a flashlight would solve any problem presented above, other than not being able to see in the dark (when a mounted flashlight would do just as well).


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I have a StreamLight TLR-1 on my SIG P250C (.40 cal.).

A light on a gun can be very advantageous, as long as you know how......*and* when to use it.

They really should offer courses on firearm illumination in tactical situations to civilians.


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## auburnDistrict (Oct 11, 2012)

paratrooper said:


> I have a StreamLight TLR-1 on my SIG P250C (.40 cal.).
> 
> A light on a gun can be very advantageous, as long as you know how......*and* when to use it.
> 
> They really should offer courses on firearm illumination in tactical situations to civilians.


Agreed. I am learning alot just from reading all these responses. An actual course would be great.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Surefire Institute has low light tactical courses which teach the different room clearing techniques and movement w/light techniques. 

Many other tactical firearm companies offer classes to LE & civilians.... the one I work for has a low light course for home defense offered to civilians upon completion of a Handgun I class. 

Most classes are for non-mounted applications... meaning a tactical flashlight in your weak hand. If you are not comfortable shooting 1 handed, then train more. You may not be able to always have a perfect 2 handed grip on your gun... this is reality, not marksmanship range time. Be prepared... train often... train on steel and forget about the X ring sometimes.... work on your weak points... train with a flashlight... train in point shooting too. Marksmanship has it's place, but under stress & while engaging a threat... the ability to point shoot has it's advantages.

* Keeping the flashlight on continuously may make searching easier, as well as reassuring, but it makes you a target while letting the aggressor know how far you are from his position, what direction your coming from and when you'll be there. 

- taken from SureFire Institute Manual

Many good flashlight techniques are not possible with rail mounted lights... such as the Figure 8, Modified FBI, Puckett Technique, Painting Technique, Ayoob, Chapman... the list goes on & on.

Mounted lights are not meant for searching.... they are meant for engaging. Sure... LE, SWAT, SRT & SF use em'... but they are engaging hostile threats, not looking for the source of a noise in the middle of the night.

I'm sure plenty will disagree... and that's fine. I'm just sharing my knowledge and experience of the subject. To each his own.


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## auburnDistrict (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for the info. I do practice 1 handed shooting, in both hands. Mainly I do it for fun, I never realized it had tactical application. The more you know.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I would never use a laser or flashlight on a self defense firearm . Law enforement is different
On your property,Turning on spotlights, flood lights, room lights are a great idea. Have a master switch 
FOR the extremist, have that light switch accessible behind a bullet protected wall in the house or outside the house at a strategic location. Remember ,drywall does not stop bullets,lol
If I was night hunting ,flashlights are necessary.Animals are not shooting back, yet.

Law enforcement will use that flashlight, they will also verbally announce ,they are police officers.
A police officer is more protected.
socially there still is that bit of respect not to shoot at policemen. But times are changing, those little crackheads,lol.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

When traveling, I always take a handgun and a small powerful, firearms grade flashlight. While on the road, we stay in motels. My favorite non-rail light is my SureFire Back-Up. I have two of them.

There's been more than once, usually while in Las Vegas (for some reason), the fire alarm goes off in the middle of the night, and we're 10 or more floors up. It's always nice to have your own source of light that's powerful enough to actually be useful. And I always keep an extra battery on hand.

At home, even though I have a rail-mounted light on my Sig, I have the SureFire Back-Up light positioned next to the gun, in case I prefer it to the rail-mounted light. 

Bottom line, is to have a very high-quality light available at home and while on the road. Either one could save your life.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And you point your pistol down the hall, at the approaching footsteps, you switch on your gun-mounted flashlight, and you find that you've drawn a fine bead on your daughter, coming home from a date.
> Or you enter the room from where the suspicious noise was coming, and you switch on the pistol-mounted flashlight, only to be hit from the first round out of the bad guy's gun, because your brightly lit flashlight gave him a really easy-to-see target.
> 
> Mounting a light on a gun may not be the best tactical solution out there. There are much better ways of handling these situations.


You can also think of it this way:

It's better to have a light.....and not need / use it, than to not have a light........and desperately need one.

I've been in both scenarios, and it really sucks if you don't have what you need.


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## Jonny_Cannon (Dec 17, 2012)

There's also one point not brought up here yet - most handguns don't have flash suppressors. Muzzle flash can really mess everyone up in the room once that first round goes off and then its like a knife-fight in a closet. I'd be more concerned about the weight of the accessory hampering weapon performance. I/m not a fan of it, but that's my opinion. I think if I wanted it, I'd have two handguns - one with a light on it permanently. That way I could train with that particular gun in that configuration all the time, and become used to it, rather than going between gun with light attached and not.

Cannon


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

auburnDistrict said:


> ...As for the second scenario it's not easy to see a target with a bright light pointed into your eyes. Again, not an expert, but I think being temporarily blinded is kinda disorienting. I know it hurts me to have a flashlight pointed into my face, maybe more grizzled veterans aren't phased by it...


Try it some time.
Have a friend enter a dark room in which you wait. Have him turn on a light, and sweep it around looking for you.
Note that it takes a second or two for him to find you, and to point the flashlight at you. Note also that this gives you sufficient time to aim at the light source, and to take a shot.
This is particularly true if you are standing in either the left-side or right-side corner, in relation to the doorway.



auburnDistrict said:


> I don't really see how having a flashlight next to your HD gun solves the problem, since according to the point above you are still wafting a light beam around presenting yourself as a target (assuming you haven't disoriented your intruder, daughter, grandmother, etc.) The only difference now is that your weapon is being held by one hand (instead of two, thereby reducing accuracy and chance of missing/hitting someone besides your target) plus the chance is greater that your weapon is likely not pointed in the direction it needs to be. If we're being technical about it, as we should, it's our lives and families at stake, I don't think a flashlight would solve any problem presented above, other than not being able to see in the dark (when a mounted flashlight would do just as well).


It all has to do with technique.
There are ways of holding a flashlight, so that if someone shoots at it, the bullet will very likely miss you.
Further, you don't leave the thing permanently turned on. You search in short bursts, moving between flashes.
Finally, when you decide to shoot, the hand holding the flashlight changes position, to help you place your shot.

All of this requires experience, training or thought, and practice.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Using a hand-held light or a rail-mounted light on a handgun, pretty much all boils down to training and personal preference. 

Myself.....I prefer to have my weak-side hand free if needed. With a rail-mounted light, I can activate it at will. Just because it's on my handgun, doesn't mean it has to be used all the time. It's small and light-weight and doesn't effect the way the gun handles. 

When I leave the house and if I'm taking my Sig with me, the light comes off. It takes about 5 seconds or so to do that. When on the road and traveling, as I mentioned in a previous post, I take my SureFire BackUp light. When staying in a motel or hotel, it's usually just one big room, so there's no longer the usual need for a rail-mounted light.


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## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

I'm a proponent of a flashlight mounted on MY home defense handgun. I emphasize MY for a reason. Anyone can mount a light and be "tacticool", but without proper usage and training, it's just a weight on the gun. Steve talked about how a light can make you a target, there is truth to that. If you stand in the middle of your hallway or sweep the room with the light, you can show the bad guy exactly where you are. There are tactics involved with using a light and must be practiced until they are second nature. I am not an advocate of searching your house to find the bad guy. Make the bad guy come to you and utilize cover and concealment to your advantage. Don't take cover where the bad guy expects you to be, like beside the bed or standing while you peek around the corner. Most importantly, you have to know where your target is before you "light him up". Used properly, a good light can be a tactical advantage, but it's not a "cure all" for every situation. Training, practice, and the element of surprise will allow you to properly utilize a mounted or hand held light to your advantage.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hud35500 said:


> I'm a proponent of a flashlight mounted on MY home defense handgun. I emphasize MY for a reason. Anyone can mount a light and be "tacticool", but without proper usage and training, it's just a weight on the gun. Steve talked about how a light can make you a target, there is truth to that. If you stand in the middle of your hallway or sweep the room with the light, you can show the bad guy exactly where you are. There are tactics involved with using a light and must be practiced until they are second nature. I am not an advocate of searching your house to find the bad guy. Make the bad guy come to you and utilize cover and concealment to your advantage. Don't take cover where the bad guy expects you to be, like beside the bed or standing while you peek around the corner. Most importantly, you have to know where your target is before you "light him up". Used properly, a good light can be a tactical advantage, but it's not a "cure all" for every situation. Training, practice, and the element of surprise will allow you to properly utilize a mounted or hand held light to your advantage.


Depends upon the size of your home, and whether or not, you have children in their bedrooms.........on the other side or end of the house. You still gonna hide out in your bedroom, and wait for the bad guy to come to you?

Someone breaks into my home, and I'm aware of it, I'll take the fight to them every time. It's my domain and I know it better than anyone, especially in total darkness.


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## stlbob (Mar 5, 2013)

And there is my issue all these lights on railed guns and no one trained in how to use them.You speak of muzzle flash being an issue,unless its a very short barrel with a lot of extra powder not being burnt,its not an issue.I cant count the number of rounds i have fired in my life and never has muzzle flash been an issue at dusk or even dead of night.
Now that super bright led flashflight to me is a signal if you have a bg in the house..Also unless you are a leo or ex military and have had experience clearing the house you shouldnt be doing it.Get your weapon,fall back to cover,911 leave the phone on (they record 911 calls,it will be to your benefit if it goes badly),and stay put.If the BG comes to you beg him not to make you do this.and if doesnt listen you have a recording of you begging him to stop.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

stlbob said:


> And there is my issue all these lights on railed guns and no one trained in how to use them.You speak of muzzle flash being an issue,unless its a very short barrel with a lot of extra powder not being burnt,its not an issue.I cant count the number of rounds i have fired in my life and never has muzzle flash been an issue at dusk or even dead of night.
> Now that super bright led flashflight to me is a signal if you have a bg in the house..Also unless you are a leo or ex military and have had experience clearing the house you shouldnt be doing it.Get your weapon,fall back to cover,911 leave the phone on (they record 911 calls,it will be to your benefit if it goes badly),and stay put.If the BG comes to you beg him not to make you do this.and if doesnt listen you have a recording of you begging him to stop.


Maybe it's just me. If someone enters (breaks) into my home, with the intent to do harm to me or my family, I'm not gonna be in any mood to carry on a conversation with him and try to convince him to mend his evil ways.

He's either going to jail, the hospital.........or the morgue.


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## stlbob (Mar 5, 2013)

LMAO
Me either,its for your own good.I have taken a few classes on the subject.Another issue is people want to be chatty after a shooting,no one enjoys being in a shoot out.No one wants to be the bad guy.This is all the right answer when you start getting asked questions by the cops,and you will be,SHUT UP.Get an attorney.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

There should only be one story... yours.

Makes things simpler, remember that.

There are a lot of things you can do to make dealing with police easier and improve your chances against possible lawsuits or jail.


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## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

Hey paratrooper, do you have any real world experience, or do you go by what you see in movies ? No offense, but I'll stack 25 years experience as an LEO over macho bravado any day. There are no perfect answers to every situation, only the ability to react to the situation as best you can. You can talk all day about how you're going to react, but you won't know until it hits you in the face. We don't "rise to the occasion", we fall back back to our level of training. I'd be curious to know your level of training. Don't mean to offend, just sharing my experience.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

TAPnRACK said:


> There should only be one story... yours.
> 
> Makes things simpler, remember that.
> 
> There are a lot of things you can do to make dealing with police easier and improve your chances against possible lawsuits or jail.


Exactly, dead men tell no lies!! Or change their stories,lol.
Morte, Finito, adios,


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hud35500 said:


> Hey paratrooper, do you have any real world experience, or do you go by what you see in movies ? No offense, but I'll stack 25 years experience as an LEO over macho bravado any day. There are no perfect answers to every situation, only the ability to react to the situation as best you can. You can talk all day about how you're going to react, but you won't know until it hits you in the face. We don't "rise to the occasion", we fall back back to our level of training. I'd be curious to know your level of training. Don't mean to offend, just sharing my experience.


Three years in the military as an Army Airborne Ranger, four year college degree in LE, and 29 yrs. as a LEO.

I'd make a list of all the highly specialized supplementary training I've had while in LE, but I really don't have the time nor the inclination to do so.

I don't mean to offend, but just sayin............:watching:

BTW......"Been there and done that"......if you know what I mean.


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## hud35500 (May 8, 2010)

No offense taken. We're all adults here. I do enjoy some spirited debate though. Kudo's to you from a fellow vet !


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hud35500 said:


> No offense taken. We're all adults here. I do enjoy some spirited debate though. Kudo's to you from a fellow vet !


Ditto! :smt023


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## stlbob (Mar 5, 2013)

Same here 11Bravo.First fun in the sandbox.I did a lot of reading and the point of leaving the phone open is to back up your story.Things that you just 'know' went a certain way sometimes in the light of day are different.Those who have seen the elephant are very aware of that.
I hope i pass my guns on to my sons,never having used them in anger.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Another reason to leave a cell phone on is so the police can "ping" it. A lot of 911 calls made with cell phones go to towers other than your local ones. 911 operators/dispatch can ping your call if your call is transferred to the wrong LE agency.

Happens every day... we can come real close (approx 100 ft) of the actual call.


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