# Why does Taurus have such a large following?



## JMessmer

I recently bought a new Taurus .357 magnum at a gun show and it just felt cheap. My brother later told me he used to have the same one and he hated it. So I brought it back a month later at a different gun show and within five steps of the door I already had competing offers. I ended up making money. Why would anyone want this gun over similar guns in the price range? Why does anyone want a Taurus in general? Does taurus put some voodoo magic on everyone besides me? please someone explain to me why Taurus can stay in business?


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## berettabone

My guess, is that the buyer didn't want to be on paper....had nothing much to do with the Taurus brand......


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## Shipwreck

I honestly don't know why some buy Taurus guns, and then they get riled up and fuss anytime someone gives a reason why they don't like the brand. Its the cheap price that sucks in so many gun newbies who do not know better


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## mawguy

I have Smith and Wesson and Ruger handguns. I just bought a Taurus PT709 Slim and I like it better than my Ruger SR9c for concealed carry. Nothing wrong with the Ruger. It is just heavier and thicker. The 709 is a good shooter and very concealable.


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## chessail77

Price is generally the reason and they have some pretty innovative ideas as well, quality control is spotty.


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## jdw68

Walmart has a huge following and it's not for the selection, service, and quality of products. Walmart has very cheap prices. I occasionally go to walmart just to get some target ammo, again for their price. Taurus has a great price and often produces decent pistols. If they were better with their quality control they would have a better reputation. However, having a better quality control would likely effect the price of their product. Sometimes "you get what you pay for" and I do hope I'm not being to negative.


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## VAMarine

Cheaper prices and good print advertising goes a long way...


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## gallenl

Price.


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## MoMan

I have posted on here in another post; why do I own Taurus handguns (I have a .22 and a Raging Bull 454 casull), because I happen to like the 2 I purchased.
I'm not a "newbie", I don't buy on price (I buy what I like!), I do have numerous handguns (13 to be exact), they include S&W, Colt, Kimber, Ruger, and even Taurus, Bersa and the oft maligned EAA Witness!
So the short answer to your question for me is; I liked it I bought it, no big deal!!


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## berettatoter

I have owned 5 Taurus hand guns in the past, four pistols and one revolver. I had problems with only one of them, and sent it back to get it fixed. It ran fine after that.


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## JMessmer

How have you all had such luck with Taurus? All I hear is bad reviews, and me and my brother both had bad experiences.


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## Scott9mm

Taurus also led in certain niches. For example the PT709 came out before Nanos, Shields, and even LC9. There are few 9mm revolvers other than the 905.


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## JMessmer

I guess that makes sense Scott


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## niadhf

JMessmer said:


> How have you all had such luck with Taurus? All I hear is bad reviews, and me and my brother both had bad experiences.


Realize that in general our society plays only the negative. By which I mean people seem much more motivated to highlight any negative experience than any positive experience. 
I like my Taurui. They are all revolvers, rock solid and great shooters. 
Same as any other handgun I own/owned. These include Colts, S&Ws, Para Ordances, Kel Tecs, Makarovs, Ai San Marcos, Piettas, and CZs


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## ArazelEternal

I currently own only one handgun. It is a Taurus Protector Polymer 357 Magnum. Ive only been to the range with it once this year, haven't had a chance to get out since. I put about 20 rounds through it, and have really liked it so far. Ive also fired other Taurus handguns, including a 1911 and another .357 with a 6 inch barrel (not sure what model it was) and the steel counter part to my 605 poly. Ive really liked each one of them and have had no problems. People like to judge quality on price point of what they purchase. While this is in general a wise way to be, price does not always mean everything. For example, a Mercedes costs far more than a Ford. However, it can still have issues and glaring flaws just as much as the Ford can. Negative experience tends to draw our attention far more than positive experience so we tend to base our opinions and choices on that.

In my opinion, Taurus makes a solid handgun and would be glad to buy more of them. My brother-in-law owns numerous handguns and several of them are Taurus. My father has a friend he works with that has a great many handguns, again many of them are Taurus and he has only good things to say about them. Sure they may not stand up to the repeated use and abuse that a Smith and Wesson may, however for my intents and purposes which are the occasional firing range visits and personal defense, my 605 poly will do just fine.


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## JMessmer

For light use they're fine, but I'd rather spend 100$ more for a cz or beretta. And did you just compare a Mercedes to a ford? Thats like comparing Johnny Cash to Justin Bieber.


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## badge851

JMessmer, I have several Taurus revolvers (38 Special & 357 Magnum); and many have in excess of 10,000+ rounds fired through them with no ill effects. You can get good & bad in any handgun; Charter®, Chiappa®, Colt®, Dan Wesson®, EAA®, Rossi®, Ruger®, Smith & Wesson®, or Taurus®. In my case I am very happy with the Taurus® revolvers I have.


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## berettabone

Do you really feel that 20 rds. is enough to prove a firearm's reliability?


ArazelEternal said:


> I currently own only one handgun. It is a Taurus Protector Polymer 357 Magnum. Ive only been to the range with it once this year, haven't had a chance to get out since. I put about 20 rounds through it, and have really liked it so far. Ive also fired other Taurus handguns, including a 1911 and another .357 with a 6 inch barrel (not sure what model it was) and the steel counter part to my 605 poly. Ive really liked each one of them and have had no problems. People like to judge quality on price point of what they purchase. While this is in general a wise way to be, price does not always mean everything. For example, a Mercedes costs far more than a Ford. However, it can still have issues and glaring flaws just as much as the Ford can. Negative experience tends to draw our attention far more than positive experience so we tend to base our opinions and choices on that.
> 
> In my opinion, Taurus makes a solid handgun and would be glad to buy more of them. My brother-in-law owns numerous handguns and several of them are Taurus. My father has a friend he works with that has a great many handguns, again many of them are Taurus and he has only good things to say about them. Sure they may not stand up to the repeated use and abuse that a Smith and Wesson may, however for my intents and purposes which are the occasional firing range visits and personal defense, my 605 poly will do just fine.


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## Overkill0084

Price mostly, and if you don't dig too deep, they actually look pretty appealing.
I own one Taurus, an alloy frame .38 snubbie. It's not terrible. Once I cleaned the bead blast media out of it, it smoothed up really well. The SA trigger is ok. The DA trigger is a bit heavier than I'd prefer, but manageable. It's not they are necessarily terrible, it's just they aren't particularly good. If one must belabor the car analogy, Taurus is like getting an old Chevette for Ford Focus money. Sure, it may work ok, but your dollar didn't really buy as much as you would have hoped. With the US dollar circling the drain, they aren't even a particularly great value these days and they are only adequate in quality. 
Save up a bit more for a Ruger or a S&W.


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## floridaowner

I have Taurus TCP that I haven't had any problems with but having said that I doubt that I would buy another Taurus. Also have S&W 9c and a Beretta Neos (for plinking) and just got a Ruger LC9, this one mostly because it's impossible to find a shield. I do favor S&W but that's just me.


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## Couch Potato

VAMarine said:


> Cheaper prices and good print advertising goes a long way...


That sums it up quite well. Much like asking why McDonald's is so popular; it never has been because the burgers were the best. (Fries can be argued, but not the burger.)


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## meyer34

I think most of the taurus gun bashers are just price snobs. For the ford merceds comparison. Merceds used starving Jewish slave labor consintration camp workers during ww2. A company I won't deal with.


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## JMessmer

What do Jewish slaves have to do with the poor quality of Taurus firearms?


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## meyer34

Taurus should like being compared to a ford . Taurus quality is verry good as far as I have seen .My pt 145 will eat whatever I feed it never jams and is small enough to carry. What more could you ask for. Love this gun.


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## just for fun

No hate mail here! Only own one taurus pistol, an 85SS My total pistol count is right at a dozon or so. Over a lifetime I have come to realize the best you can say about anything you have bought is-I would buy another one, and so it goes with the Taurus revolver. I WOULD buy another one. Wife "claimed" my J frame, Taurus is now my daily carry pistol.


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## bigdiesel

Same reason KIA is doing big business. Lot of car for the money. I have one Taurus, a .357 titanium 617 2" ported barrel 7 shot revolver. Love this gun. Under 20oz and easy to shoot one handed. They make a good weapon for the money.


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## glenwolde

I have five Taurus, 4 autos and one revolver. Up until a couple of years ago I owned none. I've been almost exclusively a revolver shooter most of my shooting life. I'm your typical late 70's early 80's Colt and S&W guy, and I still have those.

A couple of years ago it occurred to me that this whole semi-automatic thing might catch on, and maybe I should try one again after dropping them a couple of decades before. I didn't think I was going to like it, but what the heck.

Even though I reload I couldn't help but notice how inexpensive 9mm ammo was (at the time). If I got a 9mm I could shoot it a bunch without having to buy all the stuff I'd need to reload for it. Since this probably wasn't going to work out I thought that best. I ran down to Academy one Black Friday and dropped a whopping $289 on something called a PT609. 13 shot, 9mm.

I was surprised I liked it. Kind of a chunky thing. It functioned fine for the most part, there were a few hiccups but nothing I didn't work through easily. I've got a couple of thousand rounds through it.

Got my CHL, went with a TCP738. Difficult gun to shoot, but I expected that. I had some functioning issues after about 18 months. I sent it back to the factory and it came back with a new extractor and barrel, and they threw in another magazine. Took two weeks. Works flawlessly now.

Bought the PT609's little cousin, the PT638. This is about as big a .380 you're likely to run into. Started reloading for the .380. My wife and her friends love this gun, it's the gun they all seem to like at "range day". It's a good size serious gun, but the recoil is soft. Granted it's a marginal cartridge, but you've got 15 of them.

Then I bought a M380 revolver. Functions fine, very heavy trigger. Appealed to my proclivities for odd guns. And last but not least, Academy sucked me in again with the Black Friday PT92 9mm. Haven't shot it enough to comment.

So are they as "nice" as one of my Smith/Colt/Dan Wesson? No. But they don't have to be. They are an excellent value. If they break you get them fixed for the cost of the shipping. 

The bullets go where they are supposed too and they cost half (on sale) of the "name" brands. I paid no more than $330 for any one of mine. Sometimes I get a sneer at the range. But that stops once the shooting starts.


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## paratrooper

Low price and people not knowing any better. 

They appeal to newbies.


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## Roadrunner

Only have one the Taurus PT 1911, liked the features , the look and the price. I have Kimbers, Sigs, and Colts and the Taurus hangs in there very competitively with them. The price does not reflect in it's performance, quite a good value!


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## Scott9mm

bigdiesel said:


> ... I have one Taurus, a .357 titanium 617 2" ported barrel 7 shot revolver. Love this gun....


I have the 617 in blued steel. It's heavier (28 oz) which is good for recoil. It looks like Taurus only makes the stainless version now. In any case, this gun has been trouble-free for me. I have several pistols but the 617 revolver is my go-to gun for the middle of the night.

I have an early 2010 model PT709 that had problems at first but seems OK now after two trips to Miami and some DIY gunsmithing. I think the lesson here is not to buy a new model until the bugs are discovered and worked out (and that goes double for Taurus).

There are folks on this list that advise never to buy Taurus, which is probably good advice for a novice or someone with an immediate need for a reliable firearm. But they can be a good buy if you have the time and inclination to thoroughly test the gun and work out any bugs. Taurus also has certain niche models like the 617 (7 chamber .357 mag) and 905 (9 mm revolver) that have little competition. This was largely the case for mini 9's until the Nano, Shield, Solo, etc. came along.


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## Taurus24

JMessmer said:


> I recently bought a new Taurus .357 magnum at a gun show and it just felt cheap. My brother later told me he used to have the same one and he hated it. So I brought it back a month later at a different gun show and within five steps of the door I already had competing offers. I ended up making money. Why would anyone want this gun over similar guns in the price range? Why does anyone want a Taurus in general? Does taurus put some voodoo magic on everyone besides me? please someone explain to me why Taurus can stay in business?


I own around 30 pistols and like the other gentlemen stated he bought what he like. I have calibers .22lr up to .45acp and colt. I own about 14 Taurus handguns, never had an issue and I am not saying they are the best nor am I saying they are the worst. I have owned Ruger, Walther, Colt, etc it didn't really matter to me what name was on the gun just that it worked and I enjoy shooting/owning it. The following is there possible because of the warranty, or the price, or maybe the designs, they do duplicate the Beretta, 1911, and others for a far cheaper price tag, and from what I have seen/read not always but they work similar if not better than the originals. Also their revolvers are pretty well made.


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## 1911fan

I have owned one taurus, the judge. Taurus is innovative and definitely a niche market. Price has a very important play on it as well. However I would never own one again. The judge I previously owned had way too many problems. First off the finish was crap. I had to oil it at least once a week or it would start rusting. The fixed sights were way off, I mean way off. It shot a 45 colt about 12" too low at 7 yards on benchrest. The spread on the 410 was useless unless you were shooting something 4 feet away.( which i think it was mainly designed for) I was hoping for other applications with the gun. The gun jammed several times,either hammer would not fall or the cylinder locked up. The one thing it really had going for it was the ribbed grips. Man those were comfortable and absorbed recoil great. Things may have changed since I owned the judge but i don't think I would take the chance on another Taurus.


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## badge851

I have ten Taurus® revolvers.
• Mdl 85B2CH 38 Special - 1994
• Mdl 669SS4CP 357 Magnum - 1996
• Mdl 85B2 38 Special - 1997
• Mdl 617SS2 357 Magnum - 2003
• Mdl 605SS3 357 Magnum - 2006
• Mdl 85SS2UL 38 Special - 2007
• Mdl 605SS2 357 Magnum - 2010
• Mdl 605SS2 357 Magnum - 2012
• Mdl 85SS2UL 38 Special - 2012
• Mdl 425SS2 41 Magnum - 2012

All have performed superbly and I continue to shoot them all almost every week.

I have only encountered these problems.........
• Mdl 85B2CH broke a firing pin (part# 19) after 11,000+ rounds. I replaced the firing pin & it's still going strong.
• Mdl 85SS2UL had the cylinder stop (part# 44) wear down after 10,000 rounds. Called Taurus® and they shipped the part right away. Installed new cylinder stop and now the gun works fine.

Any time I had to send a gun in they fixed and returned it when they said they would. Specifically.....................
• Mdl 617 developed excessive cylinder to forcing cone gap (.011") after almost 6,000 rounds. I sent it to Taurus® and they replaced the cylinder (part# 8) and adjusted the yoke (part# 9) *I've since put 3,000+ rounds through it and it's still going strong.
• Mdl 605SS2 Locked up after 5,500+ rounds. Sent the gun in and Taurus said the problem was not repairable. Taurus® in turn sent me a new gun

I will not hesitate to buy additional Taurus® revolvers. They are an outstanding value.
Here is a wealth of Taurus® information..........

Taurus Firearms Forum - TaurusArmed.net


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## paratrooper

You can say what you will about Taurus. Yes, they are an *"okay"* firearm. And yes, they are relatively inexpensive.

But, I will never carry one or use one for self-defense. For me, that's the bottom line.


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## Taurus24

Sounds good, each to their own. I carry a multitude of firearms for SD everyone has their own opinion.


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## paratrooper

Taurus24 said:


> Sounds good, each to their own. I carry a multitude of firearms for SD everyone has their own opinion.


I'm going to assume not all at once. :mrgreen:


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## USVI

paratrooper said:


> I'm going to assume not all at once. :mrgreen:


He might...


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## paratrooper

Is that what one might call......."loaded for bear"? :mrgreen:


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## Taurus24

paratrooper said:


> I'm going to assume not all at once. :mrgreen:


Correct....


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## Rustynail

I have not owned alot of guns but i have been around guns a long time and have shot many different brands, makes and models. Taurus made there name selling cheap guns that were lower quality then other top name models. But as Taurus has made more money and became a bigger company there Quality has improved. I Took my conceal carry class this morning with a pt 24/7 9mm and that gun is well built and super reliable. My dad has not cleaned the gun for a while it was dirty as hell and still fired 25 accurate shots on target in tight grouping with no malfuctions. A well made gun but a good company. Would by a Taurus any day.


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## Mark Mck

I have been shooting a Taurus 24/7 g2 compact in 9mm recently and have about 400 rounds threw it. The trigger has smoothed out and is excellent and the gun is very accurate. It has turned out to be an excellent handgun that I may work into my concealed carry rotation. Initially the trigger was a bit rough but this has smoothed out nicely. The magazines tended to stick initially when I practiced speed reloading and I had some concern about this. This has also smoothed out and is no longer a concern. I have really come to like the 24/7 g2 compact the more I have used it.


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## 45tex

I purchased 2 new taurusses over the last few years. A .22, and a, .45. All were junk. The .22 fired less than 20 rounds before the trigger pin broke. The Pt1911 went bang every time I pulled the trigger. It also left parts of itself on the ground after each session.
The .22 was repaired by Taurus. Took 2 months, and I sold it at a profit. The .45 was such a loser that I gave it to a bud who wanted to play with it. Taurus took 6 yes 6 months to send THE WRONG sight screw. It has since become a safe queen. I think its final finish was applied with a blue sharpie.
Two strikes and you're out. Would I ever buy another Taurus. Hell no. I have to admit they had a great ad campaign for the Pt1911. If you must have a Taurus, remember AmazonSupply.com: The Store for Business & Industry. They will sell all the little springs and screws that fall off. Check out the Novak sights on your .45 if they say Novak then call Novak. I did attempting to score some parts for a new gun. Novak guy says the sights are licensed from them, MADE by Taurus. Novak does not in any way support them, They a not a Novak part. Taurus bought the use of a name. That is Taurus quality.
It should be noted that I did not insert the named supply company above. In fact I inserted Small Parts dot com but when I posted it was changed. I have no connection to the above site. I attempted to visit the company I did insert and strangely enough it goes to the above site. I guess the one I used is out of business. Use the named company at your own risk, but seeing who they are, well they are probably fine, I don't know.


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## 45tex

Posted in error


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## Cait43

No different than Ford or Chevy

Coke or Pepsi

Why does Colt, S&W, Glock have such a large following........

To each his own........


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## paratrooper

Cait43 said:


> No different than Ford or Chevy
> 
> Coke or Pepsi
> 
> Why does Colt, S&W, Glock have such a large following........
> 
> To each his own........


Colt, S&W and Glock all have a proven track-record. As does Beretta, SIG and HK.

Taurus has a relatively low price that is attractive to those that don't know any better.

It _*really is*_ that simple.


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## Stengun

Howdy,



paratrooper said:


> Low price and people not knowing any better.
> 
> They appeal to newbies.


This is entirely untrue.

I have a Taurus PT 845 that I've owned for 14 months and have fired roughly 750 rounds through it of various brands and types without a hitch except for my 200gr LSWC handloads which jam due to rim of the extracted case hitting the should of the SWC.

I pistol is very well made, and is on par they any of my Glocks, Browning, S&W and Ruger handguns.

Some of the old Taurus were cheaply made but not the current models.

Gun newbies? Hardly. I've been totin' handguns for over 31 years ( I'm 49yo so do the math ), I am a Combat Vet where I have used a handgun in combat, I have worked for the states of Arkansas and Texas as an investigator, and as a Federal Gov't employee and contractor where I carried a handgun ( no I wasn't a spy ). I have shot in all types of competitions including IPSC, USPSC, IDPA, GSSF, and numerous other unsanctioned events, hunted with a handgun for 30 years ( my current hunting handgun is a Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull which I have not killed anything with, yet ) and CCW daily.

I have to leave my CCW handgun in my truck while at work ( company rules ) and for a "truck gun" that I would not cry over too badly if it got stolen I used a Bulgarian Makarov that I paid $125.00 tax and all out the door with a box of Silver Bear JHPs, two mags and an Uncle Mike's holster.

One day while at Academy Sports I saw the Taurus PT 845 and decided to buy one for a new "truck gun". 14 months and 750 rounds later I think I got a heck of a pistol for very little money. It cost $359.xx plus tax compared to my Glock 21SF which cost $570.00 plus tax.

Paul

P.S. I forgot to mention: I also have two Taurus Gaucho .45 Colt SA revolvers that have fired many rounds, +3,500 for #67 and +2,500 for #77 ( last two numbers in their serial number ) without any problems. I have fired everything from cowboy loads with pryodex all the way to +P loads. The revolvers are very well made with excellent workmanship, fit and finish.

I give them two thumbs up!!


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## asm

I have a PT1911, a PT92 and an PT111 G2. After thousands of rounds in each of them, I have not had any malfunctions with them, they shoot very well, no maintenance issues. I prefer those guns to other more expensive ones that I also shoot, like Kimber, S&W, Bereta and Glock.


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## malonezn1972

I have only owned 1 Taurus, a .357 revolver w/ 6in barrel, that I bought used several years ago. As far as functionality, accuracy, etc. it did everything it was supposed to do. The only negative I can say about it was that even with the 6in barrel it kicked harder than the 4in S&W .357 I currently own. I have no experience with a Taurus semi-auto, but if I was looking for another inexpensive revolver I would not hesitate to try another Taurus.

Oh and by the way, I kept the Taurus for over a year and sold it for what I gave for it.


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## Kat3eWhit

It is just heavier and thicker. The 709 is a good shooter and very concealable.


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## Ala Tom

I think it is because they are generally cheaper than similar guns, not better. But my only experience was in renting a Slim 9mm for a test session. It did not suit me and I could not get it to behave. For "mouse gun" I much prefer the Glock 26.


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## jm38

I only had one bad Taurus, the infamous pt111 millennium. Never misfired, accurate as any gun on the market, just don't try to field strip it. Something (thinking recoil spring assembly) kept it from going back together. I EDC a PT809, the only thing I had to figure out was how much front sight to give this one. @ 10 yards it is a tack driver.

Now looking for a PT845...


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## MoMan

MoMan said:


> I have posted on here in another post; why do I own Taurus handguns (I have a .22 and a Raging Bull 454 casull), because I happen to like the 2 I purchased.
> I'm not a "newbie", I don't buy on price (I buy what I like!), I do have numerous handguns (13 to be exact), they include S&W, Colt, Kimber, Ruger, and even Taurus, Bersa and the oft maligned EAA Witness!
> So the short answer to your question for me is; I liked it I bought it, no big deal!!


UPDATED: I just bought another one, a Tracker .22lr/.22mag combo. Like I said if I see it and I like it, I buy it! No big deal! OH, YEA... for those who are counting.... that's 14!!

I don't normally give free advice, but here ya' go:... IF YOU DON'T WANT ONE... DON'T BUY ONE! Seems simple enough to me!!


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## jm38

Believe it or not, The S/A models are very reliable shooters, they hold a lot of cartridges, even though they all shoot low. The big plus is they are cheap and when they won't run any more they make a pretty impressive paper weight.


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## paratrooper

I don't buy Chinese-made hand or power tools, or any of their firearms. #1 reason is, poor over-all quality. #2 reason is, they don't / won't appreciate in value. Both reasons are important to me. Firearms.....even more so!

If I'm going to shell out some money for a firearm, it's nice to know that if you purchase a well known brand and/or model, chances are very good, you'll get your money back, and then some down the road, if you should decide to sell. 

A Taurus will never be worth more, than at the exact time of purchase. From that point on, it loses value and you will never see your initial investment (purchase) price again. That's a cold, hard fact, and will not change.


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## MMCSRET

I have come to respect and value my Taurus revolvers. I have a 1992 Model 441 that has well over 12,000 rounds of hand loads thru it, I've had it 10 years and I'm the fourth and final owner, still going strong, I have no idea what the previous owners fired in it. I have a Tracker in 41 Magnum and a Tracker in 44 magnum. Fine revolvers, accurate and dependable.
I've always been a Colt revolver man, I have more than 30 Colt revolvers, but anymore when I want a modern shooter I look at Taurus.
I have 2 of the 441 models. one each blue and sts. Maybe I can figure out how to post a pic of the 441's
Nope, no pics today!!!


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## denner

Well, just shot a Taurus Slim in .40. The owner said it has functioned flawless for over a year. It functioned flawless in my 20 or so shots down range. Was well made in my opinion, trigger had a little more take-up than I'm accustomed to, but I was impressed with the little pistol. Wanted to find something wrong, see if it malfunctioned, and/ or to confirm that it was made cheaply, but no such luck.


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## berettatoter

MMCSRET said:


> I have come to respect and value my Taurus revolvers. I have a 1992 Model 441 that has well over 12,000 rounds of hand loads thru it, I've had it 10 years and I'm the fourth and final owner, still going strong, I have no idea what the previous owners fired in it. I have a Tracker in 41 Magnum and a Tracker in 44 magnum. Fine revolvers, accurate and dependable.
> I've always been a Colt revolver man, I have more than 30 Colt revolvers, but anymore when I want a modern shooter I look at Taurus.
> I have 2 of the 441 models. one each blue and sts. Maybe I can figure out how to post a pic of the 441's
> Nope, no pics today!!!


My first handgun I ever bought was a Taurus Model 85, in .38 Special, back in 1988. It ran strong for the four years that I owned it.


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## MoMan

paratrooper said:


> I don't buy Chinese-made hand or power tools, or any of their firearms. #1 reason is, poor over-all quality. #2 reason is, they don't / won't appreciate in value. Both reasons are important to me. Firearms.....even more so!
> 
> If I'm going to shell out some money for a firearm, it's nice to know that if you purchase a well known brand and/or model, chances are very good, you'll get your money back, and then some down the road, if you should decide to sell.
> 
> A Taurus will never be worth more, than at the exact time of purchase. From that point on, it loses value and you will never see your initial investment (purchase) price again. That's a cold, hard fact, and will not change.


paratrooper,
You may be spot on with your assessment of appreciating value! That being said, I have a "few" investment guns, the rest are "service" guns! I expect them to perform as expected when expected, nothing more, nothing less!


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## Goldwing

I am shopping online right now for a PT111 G2. For $253.00 shipped, I ain't scared. I am not getting a tattoo or a marriage license, it's a truck gun. If it doesn't meet my standards, I will trade it for something that does. They retail around here for a lot more so I can't see how it's a bad deal.
Goldwing


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## PT111Pro

What about Taurus?
There are a lot of Media Guns out there and many just like whatever the industry with their high priced Media, hold anyone under their noses.
There are a lot of gun owners that just like the Mediaware because they shoot fine and never had a problem with it. 
And there are a lot of people out there that believe a good product have to be astronomical overpriced otherwise it is worthless.

Many are affixed religiously to one or two brand names and take every critique on their chosen brand as a personal attack. You find them here too.

Taurus? What about Taurus? Here you have many that are affixed to this brand others just own a Taurus. So what about Taurus?

Me for example have a Taurus PT 111 Millenium Pro. A 9 mm Luger chambered, - compact like the S&W 9C in size. I carry this gun on a daily base shoot the gun at least twice a month (minimum 150-200 round each session) and had in all this years with all this different loads never even a tiny hiccup. 
I bought one of the skirts in the house a PT 111 Millennium G2 chambered in 40 SW and also had not a single problem with that gun so far.

I had never had a problem with Taurus Products. I have Friends and neighbors that using Taurus that had also no Problems.
Opinions about the Taurus products are often very emotional often people complain that never had or owned a Taurus Firearm but had a Friend of a Friend that the Girlfriends Aunts Uncles Wife Grandfather had a problem with that brand.
Often some say Taurus is like having luck and you got a good gun or not and you have a bad gun. Well – one thing is for sure, that fit all the brands that I know of. I had such Guns from Walther, HK and from Smith&Wesson.

I heard that Taurus had a Quality and a Service Problem in the past but cannot denial or confirm that. I am a Taurus weapon owner since I bought the PT111Pro (I believe 5-6 years ago) that I carry right at this moment IWB while sitting in my office.

I don’t like the Warranty from Taurus. They claim a life time warranty but after 90 days (date of gun purchase) the owner has to ship the gun at own expenses from and to Taurus. Taurus doesn't sell parts to Gun Smiths so no one can repair that gun outside Taurus in Florida. That can be expensive especially when the failure on the gun is minor. So I have to pay more for shipping the Taurus gun back and for than a HK with the same problem that get adjusted by a local gun smith. The time not even counted. 

But like always, the choice is yours.


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## Jgatts

My wife picked up a pt111 millennium g2 at a gun show in October. More accurate then my sd9ve, but that's not saying a lot.


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## PT111Pro

I have both. The SD9 is a great gun. I have the Millennium Pro in 9mm Luger and it is a great gun too.
Compared to my Betretta, Bersa, Smith&Wesson, Walthers, HK, Styrer is the SD9 and the Taurus PT111Pro a good gun.


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## berettatoter

I don't quite get it either. I have had, as of now anyways, five Taurus handguns. Only one of them I had problems with...it was one of the first generation PT111's, but after I shipped it back to Taurus and had the extractor replaced, it was fine. My wife bought me a PT738 for Christmas this year, and although I have only fired sixty rounds or so through it, it ran like a champ and not like a chump. I would say that is pretty good odds so far...4 out of 5. :watching:


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## paperboy

Taurus has a following because they are fun to shoot, just like other pistols. Often, Taurus fills a unique niche. For example, I don't have a Taurus pistol but I have a really cool revolver carbine built on the Taurus Judge frame, the Circuit Judge. What other fire arm will let you shoot long Colts on the rifle range with a scope and then, using the same gun without modification, shoot trap with .410s; all in a niffty and unique carbine package? Likewise, I like my Bersa Thunder. It is a cheap pistol, but my favorite pistol; VERY reliable, accurate and safe to carry with one in the pipe. It shoots rings around a very expensive Kimber that jams frequently (too persnickity about the ammo it uses). My Ruger LCP is a cheap little pistol, but it's the best concealed pocket pistol ever designed. For a pistol weighing only 9 oz it packs a huge punch for its size even if it is only .380.
Many of the Taurus pistols look good, perform reasonably well and people like that. Just because they don't cost a lot does not mean they aren't going to get you where you need to go; i.e., Ford vs. Mercedes.
P.S. Taurus has a cool logo as well! Mess with the bull and you get the horns!


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## PT111Pro

Well - l like to put it this way.
Many people believe that with the price TAG comes the quality. Some believe that when they spend more than $ 800.00 per handgun they don’t even have to aim to hit the target, the gun does it in this price range all automatically. 
If something is not astronomically overpriced and they can't brag on the school yard or campus how much money their Granny spend for the item, the Gun is worthless and, the neighbor and the friends never had a Taurus but they know exactly why and how bad a Taurus product is. Could be that Taurus had Problems in the past. I don’t care what happen before I was born. My Grandfather back in the 1960ties had a Problem with the Smith & Wesson, said they were not really reliable and bought because of that, Walther or a Sauer product.

Sorry folks I have some Taurus products and had never a problem with it. My PT111Pro 1st series has truly minimum 20 000 rounds down the pipe with not a single hiccup, doesn’t matter what ammo I feed that gun is at top of it very accurate (I put William sights on it). I shoot that gun every month minimum 200-250 rounds, mostly 124 gr reloads from freedom ammo, or reloads from a friend that makes this way some pocked money. But it takes also Hornady 124 XTP, Magtech 147 HP, Federals and other HP ammo.
My PT 92AF is minimum 5 years old and I never had any problems. Whatever ammo I use it goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
More Questions why I don’t hate Taurus?


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## GCBHM

PT111Pro said:


> Well - l like to put it this way.
> Many people believe that with the price TAG comes the quality. Some believe that when they spend more than $ 800.00 per handgun they don't even have to aim to hit the target, the gun does it in this price range all automatically.
> If something is not astronomically overpriced and they can't brag on the school yard or campus how much money their Granny spend for the item, the Gun is worthless and, the neighbor and the friends never had a Taurus but they know exactly why and how bad a Taurus product is. Could be that Taurus had Problems in the past. I don't care what happen before I was born. My Grandfather back in the 1960ties had a Problem with the Smith & Wesson, said they were not really reliable and bought because of that, Walther or a Sauer product.
> 
> Sorry folks I have some Taurus products and had never a problem with it. My PT111Pro 1st series has truly minimum 20 000 rounds down the pipe with not a single hiccup, doesn't matter what ammo I feed that gun is at top of it very accurate (I put William sights on it). I shoot that gun every month minimum 200-250 rounds, mostly 124 gr reloads from freedom ammo, or reloads from a friend that makes this way some pocked money. But it takes also Hornady 124 XTP, Magtech 147 HP, Federals and other HP ammo.
> My PT 92AF is minimum 5 years old and I never had any problems. Whatever ammo I use it goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
> More Questions why I don't hate Taurus?


Some guns made by Taurus are good guns, no doubt. But that does not negate the fact that Taurus has had a lot of issues. If you get a good one, you're gold! But you'd be in the minority all things considered. I don't buy them b/c I don't want to run the risk of having to deal with problems. Sure, I might get one of the good ones, but I'm happy with the guns I have.


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## shootbrownelk

You only have to buy the best once. I have Taurus handguns, they were gifts. I won't sell them because of that reason....nobody would want to buy them anyway. What got me soured on Taurus revolvers, is that I also own S&W and Colt revolvers. If you ever look at them and shoot them side by side...you'll instantly see exactly what I mean. Taurus has to cut corners to undercut the price. Their machining looks like it was done by a Cub Scout with a dull hatchet.....Yuuuk!


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## Scorpion8

JMessmer said:


> ....please someone explain to me why Taurus can stay in business?


Because they make a good product at a decent price. I've had several Taurus firearms and wouldn't hesistate to own another. Both I bought used from Taurus-haters who claimed to have this problem and that, which never appeared to me. The Taurus 9422 revolver had a broken hammer-transfer pawl spring but Taurus fixed that free and it's been perfect ever since. My PT-92 is the equal of any Beretta 92 and I've never had a single misfeed, FTE, FTF, etc with it. Honestly I think people buy Taurus handguns, and either have predisposed low-opinions or buy cheap after-market mags and then blame all their problems on the gun. Like it or not, Taurus sells a buttload of guns and they probably have a lemon rate the same as any other company. But when every hater gets vocal and spews erroneous faults, then you develop a reputation deservedly or not.

If you don't like yours, sell it to me cheap please. I'm in the market for an M971 SS6 or an M627 SS6 or a Tracker M991 SS6 or even a M17 SS6. Heck, even a 24/7 9mm or another PT-92. I even had a PT-22 and the only reason it's gone is I wanted a Beretta 21a because of the exposed hammer so I swapped and shopped.


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## PT111Pro

> GCBHM
> I don't buy them b/c I don't want to run the risk of having to deal with problems.


If you one of them that had a Problem with Taurus you shouldn't buy one. My Grandpa wouldn't buy any Smith & Wesson for the same bias reasons than you got with Taurus. He never would even touch an S&W. 
Don't buy a Taurus. It's better for me, because if Taurus would be recognized to be a good gun I would have to pay twice as much for a Taurus gun. I like it that way much better. You guys bashing Taurus, I buy Guns from them that have a lot of fun and works just fine for less money. It's a win-win for all of us. 
And the best is, You and I we both can be right. Right?

I wouldn't hesitate to buy the next Gun from Taurus. Not a little bit of hesitation at all.


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## GCBHM

PT111Pro said:


> If you one of them that had a Problem with Taurus you shouldn't buy one. My Grandpa wouldn't buy any Smith & Wesson for the same bias reasons than you got with Taurus. He never would even touch an S&W.
> Don't buy a Taurus. It's better for me, because if Taurus would be recognized to be a good gun I would have to pay twice as much for a Taurus gun. I like it that way much better. You guys bashing Taurus, I buy Guns from them that have a lot of fun and works just fine for less money. It's a win-win for all of us.
> And the best is, You and I we both can be right. Right?
> 
> I wouldn't hesitate to buy the next Gun from Taurus. Not a little bit of hesitation at all.


I'm glad you're happy with Taurus. I don't bash them, I just don't buy them, and I tell people who ask me about them what I've said on here. Be careful. The revolvers seem to have less problems than the semi-auto pistols, and the PT92s seem to have a pretty good reputation. I actually prefer it to the Beretta 92fs b/c of the frame mounted safety. I never had a problem with them b/c I've never owned one. I never bought one b/c I just did not like the feel of it in my hands. It just feels cheap to me, and I don't want to throw my money away if I don't like it, even if it is inexpensive. Hey, $250 is $250! I did have problems with a S&W SD40VE, so I won't buy that make anymore. Now, if anyone wants to buy a fantastic pistol for a really reasonable price, less than Sig, Glock, HK, you name it, buy a CZ-75. I really think that for the money, that is the best pistol on the market. You can have all the Tauruses you want!


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## PT111Pro

Haha  you see GCBHM with a little humor is all a little bit better. 
No I don't buy more Taurus. I have enough with the PT111Pro and the PT92AF. A EAA Tanfoglio is on my list next so.....


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## 44magFMJ

GCBHM said:


> ...I don't bash them, I just don't buy them...


Maybe I missed something, but why are you on the Taurus forum then?


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## GCBHM

44magFMJ said:


> Maybe I missed something, but why are you on the Taurus forum then?


Does it matter? Btw, this is not a "Taurus" forum. It is a handgun forum where all major brands are available to discuss. Just food for thought.


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## berettatoter

I really want to get my hands on Taurus's version of the Model 92. I have seen them in stores, and read plenty of first hand accounts/reviews on them, and have not really ran into a negative one yet. Chomping at the bit on this one! Grrrrrrrr :smt076


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## GCBHM

berettatoter said:


> I really want to get my hands on Taurus's version of the Model 92. I have seen them in stores, and read plenty of first hand accounts/reviews on them, and have not really ran into a negative one yet. Chomping at the bit on this one! Grrrrrrrr :smt076


I actually like the Taurus 92 better than the Beretta. It feels better to me, and I prefer the frame mounted safety.


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## shootbrownelk

44magFMJ said:


> Maybe I missed something, but why are you on the Taurus forum then?


 There is a Taurus Forum?? I was not aware of that. That's nice, all three of you can have some pleasant discussions.


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## berettatoter

GCBHM said:


> I actually like the Taurus 92 better than the Beretta. It feels better to me, and I prefer the frame mounted safety.


I feel the same way. My thumb comes in contact with it better than on my 92FS. I think it would be a good shooting buddy to my Beretta.


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## Scott9mm

deleted


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## 44magFMJ

GCBHM said:


> Does it matter? Btw, this is not a "Taurus" forum. It is a handgun forum where all major brands are available to discuss. Just food for thought.


Well, I think you & your cousin know what I'm talking about. Whatever this place 'is', this 'section' is about "Taurus" firearms & to go out of your way to espouse your dislike of the product does not provide much "food for thought".

Seems you'd be better served if you went to your favorite brand 'section' & jumped for joy about how much you like them instead of wasting your precious time here.


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## Thateus

JMessmer said:


> Why does Taurus have such a large following?


Are you serious ?
$ (as in cheap)
...and take'n in by a life time warranty that's about as valuable as their guns are.


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## PT111Pro

Ha... a new Taurus specialist....
:watching:


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## HarryCline

Thateus said:


> ...and take'n in by a life time warranty that's about as valuable as their guns are.


"there's a sucker born every minute"

- P.T. Barnum


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## Stengun

Howdy,


Here's a little update on my PT 845 truck gun. 

It's still flawless. 

In fact it's kinda boring. With defensive shooting practice I have to use a dummy round to get it to jam so I can practice clearing a jam. 

Yep, my Taurus is such a crappy pistol that I have to use a dud round to make it jam. 

What up with that?

Paul


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## Greybeard

Bang for the Buck
Taurus is priced $100-300 less than comparable products from other makers. I walked into a gun shop the other day and told them I was looking for a small 9mm. He handed me a pt111 and said it was on sale for $189!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I ended up buying a Ruger lc9-s because that is the gun I really wanted but, it was $349.00, $160 more than the pt111. You can buy a lot of ammo for $160.00. A first time buyer would probably jump all over the Taurus because it does pretty much the same thing as the lc9-s. And I have a Taurus TCP that I have no problem carrying. However it had some issues with the slide lock latch that I ended up filing down the tab so that it didn't lock back on the last round. I did this because it would lock back in the middle of the magazine and no mater how much I rounded off the tab it still did so.


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## bushrat

First, allow me to say I enjoy my Taurus firearms. But, my philosophy has always been to never have higher expectations than the price of an item. That way you won't feel as bad if things don't work out the way you wanted. If things work out well for you, then you will feel great about it. 

A Taurus is not a Ruger or S&W, but for the money it is a decent gun. I have seen problems with just about every manufacturer out there. Nothing is perfect in this imperfect world. Do your research, hopefully try shooting the gun, and make your choice. Typically, the higher priced firearms will run better, more accurately, with fewer problems. Mostly, but not always.


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## PT111Pro

Well, I just learned that Taurus don't sell parts. Not even regular maintenance parts.

I was told that the recoil spring on a Millennium have to be replaced every 3000 rounds. That means for me sending the gun in to Taurus 1.5 times a year, based on how many rounds I shoot through the gun.

Well that means also a minimum of $ 50.00 for shipping and between $30.00-$50.00 for the FFL dealer handling. On top such a recoil spring cost $ 30.00.
The cost for each time of spring maintenance is about $130.00 and when you shoot the PT111Pro or Millennium like I do (4500 rounds) about $190.00 a year.

Ups!!!
Academy Sport sells the Millenium G2 for $ 239.00 That is about exact what the maintenance on the recoil spring cost.
Well I coult sell that gun for $45.00 to a Pawn Shop and buy every year a brand new one.

No, no thats not real. It is still expensive and with each purchase I don't know what I get. 

Better selling the Taurus to the Pawn shop and forget all about Taurus.
Replace the gun with a S&W M&P 9c and replace the recoil spring every year (recommended every 5000 rounds) for $ 39.90. Just order it, it comes easy in the mail or you go to your local dealer and just buy one. 

Yes that is much better and much more economical.
You can buy a cheap gun that is really reliable, and Taurus is now a reliable gun for me no question. 
No problem, but the maintenance cost afterworth eat you up. 

Well you can make a decision when purchasing a gun and go with the lower purchase price tag of the gun. But you have to be aware that there are no aftermarket parts outside taurus and the parts are out of this world, shipping, part and FFL dealer cost.
Or you buy a more expensive price TAG and safe a life long on maintenance.

Quality has his price TAG. You can pay up front or you pay after purchase for maintenance. You pay that's for sure.


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## Scott9mm

Taurus parts policy changes as fast as they change CEOs. Also, you may get different answers on parts availability from different customer service reps. In the preceding write up, I don't see why an FFL fee would apply unless they have to replace the frame (new s/n) or maybe PT111Pro lives in a non-free state. In free states, you can ship a gun direct to the factory and then direct back to you. Parts availability between Brazil and Miami seems to be a problem and then there is international politics end economics to consider. In my case, this unreliable Taurus policy on consumable parts convinced me to buy a Shield and park the 709 in the safe.


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## Shipwreck

PT111Pro said:


> Well, I just learned that Taurus don't sell parts. Not even regular maintenance parts.
> 
> I was told that the recoil spring on a Millennium have to be replaced every 3000 rounds. That means for me sending the gun in to Taurus 1.5 times a year, based on how many rounds I shoot through the gun.


Wow - Taurus sucks even worse than I imagine, and I already hated them. Wow! :smt120:smt120


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## PT111Pro

Well - Shipwreck.
Taurus can turn even a pro Taurus person away. No one will say that I was not pro Taurus. Actually I like the guns how they hold and shot. The trigger is not bad. The first Milleniums had this Hinie sights on it that I really didn't like, actually I hated them and replaced them with $ 45.00 William red, yellow sights. They eat up whatever I feed them. Any manufacturer reloads, FMJ, XTP, HP, whatever brass, steel, alloy...
I never had any Problems with my 3 Taurus guns. But the maintenance cost all together are really hefty.

Well Taurus get sold, I keep the PT 92 for sentimental reasons.
The Millennium will be replaced by Bersa.
The end of a Taurus Story.

I have the M&P 9c that the Millennium from Taurus aims for. Somehow I end up more and more with Smith & Wesson guns.


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## desertman

PT111Pro:


> Somehow I end up more and more with Smith & Wesson guns.


I think you're making a wise decision. The issues regarding Taurus products are well documented. You do indeed get what you pay for.


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## Goldwing

HarryCline said:


> "there's a sucker born every minute"
> 
> - P.T. Barnum


I just realized how clever old Thateus thought he was. Answering his own post with a quote. I wonder if the multiple personalities were made up or his head was crowded?

GW


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## bullet1234

You know what? My opinion of Taurus has changed, why because
I have shot a couple of my friends pistols, the 9mm & the 45; had
no issues. They seem to be a very good pistol, especially for their
price. IMO So far I do not own any, just S&W, Colt, Glock, Browning
& Ruger


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## PT111Pro

bullet1234 said:


> You know what? My opinion of Taurus has changed, why because
> I have shot a couple of my friends pistols, the 9mm & the 45; had
> no issues. They seem to be a very good pistol, especially for their
> price. IMO So far I do not own any, just S&W, Colt, Glock, Browning
> & Ruger


Taurus came a long way. No doubt. The guns are just fine. I know a lot of people they have all kind of Taurus products and they all have no problems. I liked it too. I have the Millenium, PT92 and a PT 809. The problem is how Taurus handles issues. You have to send the guns in and only god knows when they come back. The costs for a small repair or even maintenance is out of this world. Replacing a recoil spring assembly shouldn't be a problem for a modern product.
But shipping cost and cost of parts even if you don't have to pay for labor is insane. A recoil spring assembly cost for any gun between $ 29.00 and $ 39.00. You just go to your LGS and buy one. And if the gun is you r only home protection you are not without your gun even if the part have to be ordered. Taurus is very complicated and with shipping and part very expensive and could leave a person with only one gun for weeks to come without protection.


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## PT111Pro

Oh update.
On the Taurus web side is a chat. I contacted the chat and a nice lady was talking to me.
Regardless what the 1-800 number said on the telephone, she said sending me the recoil spring assembly is no problem. ?????? Do they really know their policy????
However she was able to call me back on the phone, get my credit card # and she will send me the recoil spring assembly for $ 21.00. No gun send in necessary.
Now hold the fingers cross so it really happen before someone else knows something else.


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## Shipwreck

PT111Pro said:


> Oh update.
> On the Taurus web side is a chat. I contacted the chat and a nice lady was talking to me.
> Regardless what the 1-800 number said on the telephone, she said sending me the recoil spring assembly is no problem. ?????? Do they really know their policy????
> However she was able to call me back on the phone, get my credit card # and she will send me the recoil spring assembly for $ 21.00. No gun send in necessary.
> Now hold the fingers cross so it really happen before someone else knows something else.


Great.. But sorry... Can't...quite....bring....myself....to....change.....my....opinion....about....Taurus...... :smt082:smt082:smt082


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## JonG

I can tell you why I bought a PT111 G2 as my first handgun. I did extensive online research from written and video reviews of this gun and not one of them was negative. Not one. Most were nearly glowing. Add to that the lifetime warranty and the low price. Yes, price is important, especially to a beginner as I have a limited income and can't invest a lot of money into an activity that I am only investigating and may not continue to pursue. You may be able to drop $500 plus on a gun on a whim, but I cannot and will probably never be able to. Then, the gun itself feels good, looks good and fit into that appealing niche between being small enough to be comfortably concealed yet still offering an effective defense capacity (12+1). Additionally, I did not buy Taurus, I bought a particular model that Taurus makes. So... I made a considered, informed choice. Would I love to have a more expensive weapon that has a better reputation? Sure. But I don't regret the choice I made.


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## JonG

PT111Pro: I am curious. Will you be changing your user name now?


----------



## PT111Pro

Update:
The recoil spring for my Taurus PT111Pro has arrived and my bank was charged with $ 20.95. Not bad, - not bad at all.
The only thing that I complain about now is, that obviously the Taurus Service employee didn't get it. One tells me I have to send the weapon in want to give me a service number, the next send me the part by mail after I gave her the weapon # just like that. 
I didn't change my mind about Taurus Service. If I would have to send the weapon in to Taurus USA only because of maintenance replacing a recoil spring that would be a different story. But I didn't have to. So somehow there is a lack of training in the service department. Go figure.


> JonG
> I can tell you why I bought a PT111 G2 as my first handgun.........
> es, price is important, especially to a beginner as I have a limited income and can't invest a lot of money into an activity that I am only investigating and may not continue to pursue. You may be able to drop $500 plus on a gun on a whim, but I cannot and will probably never be able to. Then, the gun itself feels good, looks good and fit into that appealing niche between being small enough to be comfortably concealed yet still offering an effective defense capacity (12+1).


Exactly my point.
The PT111Pro or Millennium is a great gun and not only for beginners. The gun is not only affordable the gun is very reliable and for a gun owner outside gun forum freaks and brand fetishists a real great alternative to the expensive media ware.
The service from Taurus has space for improvement but is for a gun with a $ 200.00 price TAG OK. I can live with that service confusion but would not accept it when the price TAG on the gun exceeds $450.00.


> JonG
> PT111Pro: I am curious. Will you be changing your user name now?


Hahahaha  No why????
I chose that nick because I had just cleaned the PT111Pro when I registered to that forum and the PT was still on the table. I have many guns. Too many, said my wife and so the nick could be a P99, PPK, S&W, HK, Beretta.....etc....
It was the Taurus on the Table and the first thing that I saw when the compy asked me for a user name.

And BTW, I shot yesterday 250 reloads through that gun and had again cero, null absolutely no issues with that gun.


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## chillywillyalb2113

here is a great reason. Full lifetime warranty, great price. wide selection of guns, quality made. i have had Taurus pistols for over 23 years and tired of people saying that they are crap. if a gun is crap why give a Lifetine warranty? Many {Quality} guns cost 2's asuch and only give you maybe 5 years repair. people just don't get it and think that the more you pay the betterit is. Bull @%$#! if you don't want your Taurus i will take them.


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## PT111Pro

> chillywillyalb2113
> here is a great reason. Full lifetime warranty, great price. wide selection of guns, quality made.


Agreed to. But ati Taurus people don't see that. They can't see it because it can't be. The media ware does not mention it and therefore what Anderson Cooper, or Ginger Zee didn't say or agreed too, is just not happen or not true.


> chillywillyalb2113
> Many {Quality} guns cost 2's asuch and only give you maybe 5 years repair.


Well the Anti Taurus lobby and their disciples say Taurus has a lifetime warranty because the gun is so bad that the gun can only be sold that way and only this way kept working.
The other guns don't need warranty because there are so good they never fail. I'll hope that S&W, Walther and the others don't read that because they may be cut waranty completely off. It would be accepted because they are such good guns. Right?


> chillywillyalb2113
> . i have had Taurus pistols for over 23 years and tired of people saying that they are crap.


That is a unfair statement, because it would say that you know what you talking about. That is highly unfair in a discussion where you are the only one and therefore the discussion would be one sided. One knows what he is talking about others have to dream stuff up. Don't say that because that would cause the collective anger of others against you.


> chillywillyalp2113
> Bull @%$#! if you don't want your Taurus i will take them.


That is also a unfair statement and should be banned. No one can give you a Taurus not even has one for sale, because no one ever had one. They know Taurus only by the Internet and may saw one during window shopping at Gander Mountain behind glass in the counter.
But you can have in any forum opinion plenty. When it comes to Taurus and Opinion the so called weapon forums are full of Taurus opinion. Promise. 


> chillywillyalp2113
> Many {Quality} guns cost 2's asuch


Well - I don't use the term quality. I would say the media add ware cost 2's as much. That is better and because of that all the gun forum opinionists drive Mercedes Benz, Rolls Royce, Audi, BMW, Cadillac. Or would you depend with your and with your family life on a KIA, or cheap Toyota? Everyone knows that this is bad. Right?

I asked a while ago what exactly is wrong on a Millennium gun. Springs to weak, wrong material used? Failure in the engineered design? What exactly should we write to the Taurus management what we think is wrong with the Taurus guns?

I have one point. A better inservice for the Taurus service people. They cause confusion about company policy regarding gun parts.


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## berettatoter

Where's the love? :watching:


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## PT111Pro

Love? Ahh love. The love get stuck in Baltimore, they have all the love (at least the politically correct one) that they can handle. 
:smt066 :watching:


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## Steve M1911A1

...And here's another Taurus quality-control horror story: http://www.handgunforum.net/taurus/45543-my-taurus-380-mini-revolver-deemed-unsafe.html


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## PT111Pro

I give up.
Haha 
We should now create for all manufacturers a disappointed customer treat so everyone can vent even if s/he never ever owned that product.
Popcornsmilie

Edit or even better:
We really need a my gun is much better than yours treat. That would be fun.
Than we need a caliber treat and the forum is perfect. Right?
Popcornsmilie


----------



## Steve M1911A1

But seriously, PT...
One of the very important uses for a forum like this one is education, particularly of beginners and the ignorant.
An important aspect of the educational potential of this forum is letting beginners know what our general experiences have been, brand-and-manufacturer and model-by-model.

There are lots of people who seem quite satisfied with their Taurus pistols, and Taurus-made rifles too.
But at the same time, there is a very high proportion of Taurus buyers who have had very bad experiences.

Reading both sides, a beginner, or someone honest about his ignorance, can make a more-properly-informed decision.
(Would you prefer to maintain the ignorant beginners' ignorance?)

The "complaint department" aspect of gun forums is quite an important function.


----------



## Shipwreck

Steve M1911A1 said:


> But seriously, PT...
> One of the very important uses for a forum like this one is education, particularly of beginners and the ignorant.
> An important aspect of the educational potential of this forum is letting beginners know what our general experiences have been, brand-and-manufacturer and model-by-model.
> 
> There are lots of people who seem quite satisfied with their Taurus pistols, and Taurus-made rifles too.
> But at the same time, there is a very high proportion of Taurus buyers who have had very bad experiences.
> 
> Reading both sides, a beginner, or someone honest about his ignorance, can make a more-properly-informed decision.
> (Would you prefer to maintain the ignorant beginners' ignorance?)
> 
> The "complaint department" aspect of gun forums is quite an important function.


I gave up on this argument - the proTaurus guys drink Koolaid that dwarfs any other brand fanatics. You can complain about any other brand... But, show story after story about Taurus - and it amounts to zero in their eyes... And,, you are a "hater." I give up.

I've said it before - I wouldn't want a Taurus if you gave it to me. And, for good reason. But, I can only say the same thing over and over again so many times...


----------



## Greybeard

I think what stirs up Taurus fans more than anything is that when they ask a question on THEIR Taurus sub forum about anything, the Taurus detractors jump in. i have a TCP but I own other brands as well and I like them all. I hate it when any one asks a question like, oh, what 3rd party mag works well with my 700 slim and they get replies like, "your gun is junk sell it and buy something else" or "my buddy had one and it fell apart at the range last week".


----------



## TAPnRACK




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## PT111Pro

Is this the new Glock 47 ??


----------



## PT111Pro

Friends coming over today to shoot the rifles, and I purchased a Remington 770 chambered in 308 Win that need to sighted in today. So while making the set up for it, I shoot
this morning just for fun 75 rounds of reloads 124 gr trough my 809 behind the house. No issues at all. That gun shot after i purchased it used, 925 rounds of different brands inc. reloads without any issues.

Edit:
I could do a little review on the Remington 770 308 Win purchased by WalMart if there would be a interest for it.


----------



## PT111Pro

> Steve
> An important aspect of the educational potential of this forum is letting beginners know what our general experiences have been, brand-and-manufacturer and model-by-model.


You absolutely right.

But is it even really true what here so is said about a Taurus weapon? Is my experience true or yours? And should I warn new shooters from S&W weapons? I mean I have there some experiences made that are far away from being fun and I am absolutely not the only one.

Just read the Smith&Weson Forum and what kind of problems S&W customers experience. That is no joke.
Smith & Wesson Forum
We could do that with Ruger, Walther, HK, SigSauer or any other manufacturer. But what do I say, I am absolutely sure that you already know that.
I only want to remind you on the Glock chambered in 40 S&W and the cracked slides and damaged barrels. Should I now go on for the rest of my life and write against Glock only I know about that issue? No I didn't own ever a Glock (for different reason) but so the most Taurus opinionates here. They never had one and when it was 45 years ago.

And yes, Taurus had to replace the Guns of the Brazilian police. But so had SigSauer in France, the Heckler&Koch in Germany, Glock in Austria and Beretta in Spain, Zastava in Croatia they have now Walther and Glock and so on and on and on.

Right I am very unpleased with the Taurus customer service. It seems like no one there knows their policy. But come one. We talk about a Gun life time warranty that you take out the door for about 220 Dollar incl. TAX. That is may be 50 Dollar more than a Hi-Point or a Jimmy.

I mean if you want to complain and like you said, you want to inform any new shooter, than please come up with real issues that is not based on opinion and internet bias. Something real that is different from other manufacturers.

I hear only so far, I know someone that had a Taurus and that or that happen. I could fill an encyclopedia with the same "I had happen.." for any product in the world and also any manufacturer not only for guns.


----------



## VAMarine

Greybeard said:


> I think what stirs up Taurus fans more than anything is that when they ask a question on THEIR Taurus sub forum about anything, the Taurus detractors jump in. i have a TCP but I own other brands as well and I like them all. I hate it when any one asks a question like, oh, what 3rd party mag works well with my 700 slim and they get replies like, "your gun is junk sell it and buy something else" or "my buddy had one and it fell apart at the range last week".


I've seen this come up a couple of times...

There is no "their forum" this is OUR forum and by OUR I mean the collective of the member base here.

If any fan of any particular brand wants their own little circle jerk of agreeing view points with no counter argument this is the wrong place.


----------



## Shipwreck

I just finished washing my car in almost 90 degree weather. I am thirsty. I think I will bring a glass to the gun shop, and squeeze some Taurus handguns. I can get some lemon aid


----------



## PT111Pro

Hummm  Lemon aid and yes it's true it goes humid already.

But can one answer the question:
Why is it that it is completely OK and defended to bash Taurus but if someone has a critique on Glock the hell breaks loose? VA- is it real true that this is our (in the meaning including the Taurus people) forum? I bashed Glock here and there only to see what happen. And I know what I am talking about.


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## desertman

PT111Pro:


> I hear only so far, I know *someone* that had a Taurus and that or that happen.


Some of us only know *someone* because we would never own a Taurus ourselves and for good reason. I personally know two people who have had problems with their products. Another person that I know bought one just to load up, throw in a draw, and hope he never has to use it. Actually all three bought them for that reason. The first two actually tried to dry fire their weapons and the problems were there from the get go. One had a revolver lock up as she was trying to pull the trigger. The other couldn't get a round to chamber. I tried the same thing with both their weapons and can confirm that they weren't doing anything wrong. The third person? I don't know it's probably still sitting in a drawer maybe still in it's original box. Knowing him I doubt that he will ever fire it.

Then there are those who have posted on forums such as this one who are thoroughly pissed off with Taurus and all the troubles that they have had dealing with them and their products. Sure, every manufacturer some time or the other has had a problem with a few of their products. However your odds of having a problem with a Taurus are far greater than with those of another manufacturer. We get it, you like their products and feel you are getting a bargain. Fine, keep buying them nobody's telling you not to. You are free to buy what ever you please. Just as I and others are free to advise people who do not know that much about guns to stay away from Taurus because of the history of problems that they have had. You seem to take it personally. I know you do not want to hear this or even refuse to acknowledge it but you do get what you pay for. *Let the buyer beware! *

P.S. What good is a lifetime warranty if you have to keep sending the gun back at your expense and having to deal with all the aggravation of lousy customer service? In the long run it will end up costing you more and you would be much better off spending the extra money and getting a better product in the first place.


----------



## VAMarine

PT111Pro said:


> Hummm  Lemon aid and yes it's true it goes humid already.
> 
> But can one answer the question:
> Why is it that it is completely OK and defended to bash Taurus but if someone has a critique on Glock the hell breaks loose? VA- is it real true that this is our (in the meaning including the Taurus people) forum? I bashed Glock here and there only to see what happen. And I know what I am talking about.


Yeah I don't care what you bash as long as its not pointed directly at a member IE attack the argument not the member.

Taurus sucks. Glock sucks. Beretta sucks I don't care so long as people stick to making valid points and not attack each other. Posts about Glocks (for or against) belong in the Glock forum. Posts about Taurus (for or against) belong in the Taurus forum just as a matter of organization not a matter of segregation of cults.


----------



## PT111Pro

> Yeah I don't care what you bash as long as its not pointed directly at a member IE attack the argument not the member


And you think I have harmed that rule? Interesting.


----------



## PT111Pro

Well than just keep warning people from Taurus. 
And don't forget to tell them immediately what to buy instead.

It is always easier to go shopping with other people wallets. Some youngsters even take grandmas purse to gander Mountain. Well and if it not enough for a new gun there are always some old ones that burglars sell everywhere. Pawn shops offer old guns for almost 75% of the new price, and the gun was only used by a carpenter as nail driver but other than that is a good Old Glock after all. You know one of the once chambered in 40 S&W that ripped the frame apart. But hey a Glock - right?
And for a newbie that don't know the first thing about guns is it safer to go and buy a old gun than a new taurus instead. Reight? Or wait you will tell them what to buy anyway. 

So don't by a KIA when you can have a good old and used Jaguar instead, that no one really know what happen to it after all. Right?
I am surpriced that here all drive Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Maserati, BMW, Audi. Well who on earth want's to ride a Toyota and than come in a Thunderstorm. And who on earth would trust anything below that with their and their family life on it. Right?

You guys lost me but good luck buying stuff for other people with the wallets that's not your s to fill. I hope people that want to buy a Smith and Wesson go to Smith and Wesson if they want to know about a particular gun. It's always better to hear from people that actually own and carry that gun and not repeat what the friend of the brothers supervisors aunt has to say about it.


----------



## TheReaper

I'm buying on of these 709 "SLIM" 9MM. G & A liked it.

Guns & Ammo's Single Stack 9mm Shootout - Guns & Ammo


----------



## desertman

PT111Pro:


> You guys lost me but good luck buying stuff for other people with the wallets that's not your s to fill.


"PT" on this particular subject you've lost me too. As "Steve M1911A1" so accurately stated:


> *One of the very important uses for a forum like this one is education, particularly of beginners and the ignorant.
> An important aspect of the educational potential of this forum is letting beginners know what our general experiences have been, brand-and-manufacturer and model-by-model.*


It really is that simple. Hey, go ahead buy all of the Taurus products to your hearts content. It's a free country. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it. By you endorsing a product or criticizing others over what their opinions are on that given product. You too are telling people what to buy although you just do not realize it. As for me I could not in good conscience recommend that anyone who is thinking about purchasing a gun buy one of inferior quality or one with a poor track record. After all their life may depend on it.

You can't even begin to compare the cost of a KIA to that of a Jaguar or Mercedes to that of let's say a Glock and a Taurus. One is tens of thousands of dollars the other is maybe one to two hundred. Is your life worth the extra one or two hundred? Besides the subject is guns not cars. Let's stick to the subject.

You are also under the mistaken impression that used guns from reputable manufacturers are either useless, stolen or used for other purposes such as hammering nails. Ridiculous! There are plenty of good used guns on the market being sold by reputable gun stores and pawn shops. If you were the proprietor of one of those shops would you want to have a bad reputation for selling junk? Or be constantly arguing with customers over products you have sold. If so you will not be in business very long. At least the gun stores that I shop at wouldn't even accept such pieces of junk. It's just not worth the aggravation over a $75 broken down used gun that was used for hammering nails. Besides who in their right mind upon looking at it would buy it anyway?


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## desertman

TheReaper:


> I'm buying on of these 709 "SLIM" 9MM. G & A liked it.


By all means if that's what you want, go right ahead and buy it. It's your money. Do take into consideration that Taurus advertises their products as do other manufacturers in firearms publications. It would not be in their best interests to do a bad review on any of their products. Not only that manufacturers make sure that the product that they're sending in for a review are hand selected and tested before they are sent in. I doubt very much that they just randomly select one from the assembly line and send it in. The same can be said about comments regarding those products. Do you really know who is making those comments? For all you know it could be from employees of that company or from distributers who sell them. This is true for all manufacturers and for all types of products. It really is up to you as the consumer to be able to tell the difference between what is junk and what is not, by carefully examining, handling, and comparing different products.


----------



## Goldwing

VAMarine said:


> Yeah I don't care what you bash as long as its not pointed directly at a member IE attack the argument not the member.
> 
> Taurus sucks. Glock sucks. Beretta sucks I don't care so long as people stick to making valid points and not attack each other. Posts about Glocks (for or against) belong in the Glock forum. Posts about Taurus (for or against) belong in the Taurus forum just as a matter of organization not a matter of segregation of cults.


My absolutely reliable and accurate G19 used to have a trigger that sucked. After installing some aftermarket trigger parts it is perfect, except it is Tupperware, and some find it ugly, and it's not a 1911 clone, and it could use some new sights..................................................
:smt014
GW


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## desertman

goldwing:
I own a variety of different makes, some new, some used: Colt, Detonics, Kahr, S&W, Ruger, CZ, Beretta, Glock, HK, Springfield, Sig, Uberti, Bond Arms and NAA. All good guns. DA and SA Revolvers, DA/SA and SA semi auto's and last but not least the "strikers" my all time favorites. Some all stainless, some tupperware, some alloy framed, some blued steel, can't complain about any of them. I've taken every single one of them completely apart and put back together again. If I'm gonna own them I've got to know how to work on them. Sure, there are certain things that one has over the other and a few why didn't they do this? Some are more complicated to work on than others. However each and every one of them has been reliable without any issues. For some there are a wide variety of aftermarket parts to make it more to my liking, some for aesthetics, some for function. As much as I hate to admit this and at one time swore I'd never buy one (too damn ugly) plus the idea of owning a plastic framed gun was abhorrent to me. Times have changed, I never leave home without a Glock especially the G30. Out of all the guns I own it is the one gun that I know that I could stake my life on. That's all that really counts.

Another thing to consider and this pertains to those first time gun buyers. You're gonna' have to practice with the damn thing in order to become proficient. Every time you squeeze the trigger approximately a one dollar bill goes flying out the barrel. More than likely it's going to take a few thousand rounds to use the weapon effectively. Meaning another few thousand dollars. With that kind of total expenditure, will another $200 make that much of a difference in buying a firearm from a reputable manufacturer? Wouldn't it be wise to buy one that will hold up to ten thousand or more rounds rather than a few thousand? Hell, after you've expended enough rounds to become proficient it may be time to buy a new gun. Or the gun that you've just put a few thousand rounds through decides to crap out at the wrong time.


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## TheReaper

desertman said:


> TheReaper:
> 
> By all means if that's what you want, go right ahead and buy it. It's your money. Do take into consideration that Taurus advertises their products as do other manufacturers in firearms publications. It would not be in their best interests to do a bad review on any of their products. Not only that manufacturers make sure that the product that they're sending in for a review are hand selected and tested before they are sent in. I doubt very much that they just randomly select one from the assembly line and send it in. The same can be said about comments regarding those products. Do you really know who is making those comments? For all you know it could be from employees of that company or from distributers who sell them. This is true for all manufacturers and for all types of products. It really is up to you as the consumer to be able to tell the difference between what is junk and what is not, by carefully examining, handling, and comparing different products.


Do you know who makes the hamburgers you buy from McDonald's ? I own a M&P Shield as my small carry gun already. I'm buying a 709 just to see if it really works and if it don't I'll dispose of it. Please do try to educate me on gun ownership.


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## desertman

TheReaper:


> Do you know who makes the hamburgers you buy from McDonald's ?


(1) I don't eat at McDonald's. 
(2) I have absolutely no idea how much you know about guns. Could be a lot? Could be very little? 
(3) I really could care less what you decide to buy, again it's your money. You are free to flush it down the toilet if you so choose. 
(4) My comments regarding Taurus handguns are directed towards those who are considering buying one. You seemed to fit that category. 
(5) My intent was not to offend anyone, sorry if you were offended.
(6) There are just too many people who have had problems with Taurus products and or customer service when compared with other manufacturers. You refuse to accept it. Fine, it's your decision. I personally know two and one who will probably never take it out of the box. Hey, if your hell bent on buying one go right ahead. If you start having problems and the aggravation of dealing with Taurus customer service and the hassle of sending it back for repairs and or parts, you can't say you were never warned. Good Luck!
(7) I would never buy a gun or any product based on a magazine article that receives paid advertising from the manufacturer with whom they do business with. That's just me.


----------



## Scott9mm

TheReaper said:


> I'm buying on of these 709 "SLIM" 9MM. G & A liked it.
> 
> Guns & Ammo's Single Stack 9mm Shootout - Guns & Ammo


Hopefully, you will get a good sample like G&A got. There is something about the design, manufacture, or assembly of these 709s that makes some of them trouble-free and others problematic. Maybe the newest ones are "fixed?"


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## desertman

Scott9mm:


> Maybe the newest ones are "fixed?"


The key word is "maybe". Thanks, Scott!


----------



## TheReaper

Scott9mm said:


> Hopefully, you will get a good sample like G&A got. There is something about the design, manufacture, or assembly of these 709s that makes *some of them trouble-free* and others problematic. Maybe the newest ones are "fixed?"


I hope to get one that's trouble-free.


----------



## TheReaper

desertman said:


> TheReaper:
> 
> (1) I don't eat at McDonald's.
> (2) I have absolutely no idea how much you know about guns. Could be a lot? Could be very little?
> (3) I really could care less what you decide to buy, again it's your money. You are free to flush it down the toilet if you so choose.
> (4) My comments regarding Taurus handguns are directed towards those who are considering buying one. You seemed to fit that category.
> (5) My intent was not to offend anyone, sorry if you were offended.
> (6) There are just too many people who have had problems with Taurus products and or customer service when compared with other manufacturers. You refuse to accept it. Fine, it's your decision. I personally know two and one who will probably never take it out of the box. Hey, if your hell bent on buying one go right ahead. If you start having problems and the aggravation of dealing with Taurus customer service and the hassle of sending it back for repairs and or parts, you can't say you were never warned. Good Luck!
> (7) I would never buy a gun or any product based on a magazine article that receives paid advertising from the manufacturer with whom they do business with. That's just me.


Thanks for not caring.:anim_lol:


----------



## VAMarine

When the last time anyone read a negative gun review in any gun mag (other than gun teats) on any make / model?


----------



## desertman

TheReaper:


> Thanks for not caring.


You're welcome!


----------



## Greybeard

desertman said:


> goldwing:
> 
> Another thing to consider and this pertains to those first time gun buyers. You're gonna' have to practice with the damn thing in order to become proficient. Every time you squeeze the trigger approximately a one dollar bill goes flying out the barrel. More than likely it's going to take a few thousand rounds to use the weapon effectively. Meaning another few thousand dollars. With that kind of total expenditure, will another $200 make that much of a difference in buying a firearm from a reputable manufacturer? Wouldn't it be wise to buy one that will hold up to ten thousand or more rounds rather than a few thousand? Hell, after you've expended enough rounds to become proficient it may be time to buy a new gun. Or the gun that you've just put a few thousand rounds through decides to crap out at the wrong time.


Very good point


----------



## PT111Pro

> Desertman
> Another thing to consider and this pertains to those first time gun buyers. You're gonna' have to practice with the damn thing in order to become proficient. Every time you squeeze the trigger approximately a one dollar bill goes flying out the barrel. More than likely it's going to take a few thousand rounds to use the weapon effectively. Meaning another few thousand dollars. With that kind of total expenditure, will another $200 make that much of a difference in buying a firearm from a reputable manufacturer? Wouldn't it be wise to buy one that will hold up to ten thousand or more rounds rather than a few thousand? Hell, after you've expended enough rounds to become proficient it may be time to buy a new gun. Or the gun that you've just put a few thousand rounds through decides to crap out at the wrong time.


Good post I would say. Very good but&#8230;.

Well not really and not entirely the truth.
Truth is, that you have to spend money to blow bullets through the pipe but 1000sands of Dollars. Really? Come on now.
I mean I understand with a weapon list of yours or mine, we spend a lot of money for ammo because we want to, not because we have to. We have to consider that other people want protection but a weapon is actually not their hobby and will never become one.
Many of my coworkers have a gun but as a hobby? Sandra just told me she still has the 38 special from her late dad in one of the kitchen drawers. Loaded? Hummm actually she is not even sure.

Let me calculate based what I did with my coworker Coleen Harris different to meet decent requirement in gun, shooting practice on the long run in a responsible manner and with a budget of $ 500.00
Yes that is possible if people are not in need the show of on the range or in a forum with their media ware.

Buying a Taurus Millennium for example here:
Taurus PT111 Gen2 9mm 3.25" Barrel 12+1 Rnd - $199.99 + $17 S/H | Slickguns
Well Gun, Shipping, TAX incl $25.00 FFL would set your account with about $250.00
My coworker Mrs. Harris paid in the LGS 252.00 incl. TAX. But this is only beside a point and raises the question why buying a gun online anyway.

I agree with you, a gun have to be proven of its reliability and the shooter have to become familiar with that particular tool. A Hammer is a hammer is not always true. There are differences. 
That mans actually shooting that gun. I believe a gun that had shot 400 rounds trough it with no problems or hiccups has proven to work and the new shooter should than know how this new gun works. At least my coworker was confident with her gun after that 400 rounds shoot (3 weekends). Like I said, for many is shoting a gun a have to not a want to. 
The Taurus made that very easy, no need for trigger jobs or any upgrade like S&W etc&#8230; But that should be an easy task for any gun sold in the US, including the Hi-Point or Jimmys.

Thousands of Dollars? Where do you get that numbers from? We still talking about a new gun owner that bought that gun for 12 times a year of necessary shooting practice and home protection. Right?
So how much do we talk about in ammo that any brand of gun would need?

9X19mm ammo cost you:
1000 rounds of 9X19mm
Here:
Buy Bulk 9mm Ammo Online at BulkAmmo.com - Available and Ready to Ship
That is 209 + 23 Dollars of shipping and handling
Or here:
Tula BrassMAXX 9mm Brass Cased Full Metal Jacket 115 Grain 1150 fps 1000 Round Case, Packed in Ten, 100 Round Plastic Cylinders, TAB90002
That is 219+23 shipping and handling 
It goes even cheaper if you know where.

So where are we?
The gun 250.00 Dollar, 1000 rounds of ammo 250.00 US Dollar.
That's 500. Dollar straight.
So if she shot 400 rounds for prove or reliability that leaves her with 600 rounds of ammo that she can use for the next 2 years for shooting practice.

A Smith and Wesson and the gang get only started at this price Tag, without any ammo, or TAX and you need upgrades on that guns and they are not really from the cheapo corner.

First where do you get the 1000 of Dollar account from?
Second are you really sure that someone that only want home protection and a gun in the drawer with may be 10 times 30-40 rounds of range fun a year have to spend more than 500 Dollar in 2 years.


----------



## desertman

PT111Pro:


> First where do you get the 1000 of Dollar account from?


Man, you've got to try and understand my post. I stated "More than likely it's going to take a few thousand rounds to use the weapon effectively." This has nothing to do with finding out whether that gun would be reliable or not. This is directed at those who have never fired a handgun before. I doubt that for a first time gun owner it would only take a few hundred rounds to become proficient with that weapon. Sure maybe some can, but on the other hand many would not. $1000 is not an unreasonable amount for the average person to have to pay in order to become proficient.


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## Goldwing

The horse is dead! Put the whip away already. Over 2 1/2 years and 134 posts, and nothing is settled. The OP hasn't been here since 5/23/13 so I think his question was answered over two years ago. Enough.


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## Shipwreck

goldwing said:


> The horse is dead! Put the whip away already. Over 2 1/2 years and 134 posts, and nothing is settled. The OP hasn't been here since 5/23/13 so I think his question was answered over two years ago. Enough.


Are you kidding... We got at least another 5 years of life left in this thread


----------



## desertman

goldwing:


> The horse is dead! Put the whip away already.


I think you're right "GW". I guess the bottom line is "friends don't let friends buy Taurus". The only other thing I have to add is that if anyone is considering buying and or carrying a gun for self protection they better damn well know how to use it. A few rounds here and there punching away at stationary targets just isn't going to cut it. *Becoming proficient with a handgun is not cheap.* $1000 spent on ammo is nothing in order to accomplish it. You also have to make sure that with a semi auto pistol that it will function with different types/brands of ammo in particular hollow points. Not just the cheap FMJ stuff, or some of the shit that people sell in bulk. Functionality will mean putting a few hundred rounds of the type of ammo that one uses for self defense down the barrel. I would never even consider using hand loads for that purpose. The pro's and con's of hand loading is another subject for another time. Nor could I recommend using FMJ's for self defense due to over penetration. To do otherwise is nothing more than a crap shoot.


----------



## TheReaper

desertman said:


> PT111Pro:
> 
> Man, you've got to try and understand my post. I stated "More than likely it's going to* take a few thousand rounds to use the weapon effectively*." This has nothing to do with finding out whether that gun would be reliable or not. This is directed at those who have never fired a handgun before. I doubt that for a first time gun owner it would only take a few hundred rounds to become proficient with that weapon. Sure maybe some can, but on the other hand many would not. $1000 is not an unreasonable amount for the average person to have to pay in order to become proficient.


Maybe for you.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheReaper said:


> Maybe for you.


Yeah. I know. "The movies I've seen make it look so easy. Anybody can do it."
Yeah. Right.


----------



## Goldwing

My old friend Jack thought he was an expert right away. He even lost a couple of rather large wagers because he thought he was so good. He did win a nickname though.
we called him CHABITAWAS. It's an acronym for Couldn't Hit A Bull In The Ass With A Shovel.:smt033

GW


----------



## TheReaper

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yeah. I know. "The movies I've seen make it look so easy. Anybody can do it."
> Yeah. Right.


You either have skills or you don't. Practice does make perfect but 3,000 rounds is a little much.


----------



## TheReaper

delete


----------



## desertman

Steve M1911A1:


> Yeah. I know. "The movies I've seen make it look so easy. Anybody can do it."
> Yeah. Right.


Thanks Steve! I feel vindicated. Not everybody is an expert marksman such as "The Reaper" the first time they pick up a gun. Especially a handgun. I wonder how he/she would do if faced with an armed confrontation? There's a lot more to it than going to a range and blowing a few holes through paper targets.


----------



## desertman

goldwing:


> My old friend Jack thought he was an expert right away. He even lost a couple of rather large wagers because he thought he was so good. He did win a nickname though.
> we called him CHABITAWAS. It's an acronym for Couldn't Hit A Bull In The Ass With A Shovel.


Very good "GW" very good! You just have to let them brag especially when they make fools out of themselves. Makes for great comedy.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

TheReaper said:


> You either have skills or you don't. Practice does make perfect but 3,000 rounds is a little much.


When I was learning to shoot the pistol, 50 dry-fire shots a day was not unusual, with at least 50 live-fire shots on the weekend.
When I was still competing, it was usual to set off 200 rounds in a weekend practice session. Shooting 500 rounds was not unusual, the weekend before a match.

During my learning and my competition times, I must've shot at least 300,000 practice rounds.
After that, maybe another 26,000 rounds, just to keep my skill level up.

When I was teaching my wife to shoot, she would set off a minimum of 50 rounds each week, plus her daily dry-fire practice of course.

If you do not continually practice what skills you have, you lose them pretty quickly.

*So, about the fragility of Taurus pistols:* If you can't practice enough, for fear of having your pistol fall apart, then that pistol isn't worth betting your life upon.


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## TheReaper

desertman said:


> Steve M1911A1:
> 
> Thanks Steve! I feel vindicated. Not everybody is an expert marksman such as "The Reaper" the first time they pick up a gun. Especially a handgun. I wonder how he/she would do if faced with an armed confrontation? There's a lot more to it than going to a range and blowing a few holes through paper targets.


Where did I say that I was an expert marksman ?


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## desertman

Steve M1911A1:
You've got me beat by a long shot. I'm guessing I've fired about 50,000 rounds in my lifetime. On a forum such as this I could never in good conscience recommend that anyone who buys a gun for the first time just go out and blow off a couple of hundred rounds and now they will be ready to conquer the world. Ridiculous!


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## Steve M1911A1

TheReaper said:


> Where did I say that I was an expert marksman ?


If you criticize the advice that others offer, you need to include your own credentials.

If you give advice to others, you need to include your own credentials.

BTW: For all of that practicing, I was only moderately successful in competition. You can probably imagine how much practicing the real champions did!


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## TheReaper

Thanks for all the great advice.


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## desertman

Steve M1911A1:


> If you give advice to others, you need to include your own credentials.


You really didn't have to. I could tell by reading your posts that you know what you are talking about. I doubt I'll even come close to firing off as many rounds as you have, competition is out of the question as much as I would love to. My other hobby is antique auto restoration (my own). Restore em' and keep em'. It does put a damper on how much you can afford to go shooting. I've been doing mechanical work since I was a young kid. I always had to take things apart to see what made them "tick". My father rarely paid anyone to fix anything if it broke, and the wise little bastard (me) was always there.

Shooting: Owned and worked on guns for 35 years. I like working on them just as much maybe more than shooting them. It's a hell of a lot easier than cars, not as grimy or ball busting.
Started shooting (real guns) by buying an M1 Carbine. No formal instruction, just going out into the middle of nowhere and blowing off some rounds. Graduated to handguns, my first being a .38 Super 1911, then a Model 29 .44 Magnum followed by others of course. Same thing, went out into the middle of nowhere just blowing off rounds. Soon after I took tactical handgun courses which required a minimum of 1000 rounds each. Am I the best shot in the world? I doubt it but I can hold my own. The courses were instrumental in my attitude toward guns and teach you a lot more about owning and using guns than target shooting. Things like situational awareness, escalation of violence, firearms laws, financial repercussions, places to steer clear of etc. Teaches you to be real polite while packing heat. Someone flips you the bird on the highway or cuts you off, swallow your pride and let it pass. You have the power to end that persons life. Once that bullet leaves the barrel it ain't comin' back. A real eye opener. Handguns are a lot more than going out and making a lot of noise, which I loved to do.

I was almost in a confrontation once when a group of young adolescents made it clear they were going to "roll" me. Now I'm 6 ft. 175 lbs. and in good physical shape. That is until they saw me pulling out a .45ACP "good old 1911". This was at a convenience store on a Sunday morning while I was getting the paper. They decided that it wouldn't be a good idea after all and took off like rockets. I just thank God to this day that I didn't have to blow them all to kingdom come. Was I shittin' in my pants? You're damn right I was. If it had gone any further and they kept coming at me they wouldn't be alive today. I would then have firsthand knowledge of what it would be like to get dragged through the legal system and all the civil suits that followed. Make no mistake about it, even if you are justified and I had no doubt in my mind that I would have been. It would not be the end of it, not by a long shot.

There you have it, my own personal experience and words of wisdom. I think?


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## PT111Pro

> Steve
> Yeah. I know. "The movies I've seen make it look so easy. Anybody can do it." Yeah. Right.


Now come on Steve. Shooting a gun is not Rocket science. I say every adult with healthy motor skills and a normal mind set shoot after little training with a hand firearm a possible aggressor in the chest or face.
In the middle east irresponsible parents or Taliban's and not only there, people teach children 7-8 year old how to use a gun and even they can do it after a short time.

Well can they go competition shooting? I don't think so, they really don't wanjt that anyway, but they know enough for a self defense shot in a distance between 3 and 10 yards.
It is the mind that shoot and not the motor skills in the hand.

10 yards (30 feet) and more well, I would try to go around shooting.
First I don't like to shot people
second after a distance of 10 yards and more I could take cover and await what happen.

In the home, well is it different but there are also shorter distances if you don't count shooting through the gypsum-walls.



> desertman
> You've got me beat by a long shot. I'm guessing I've fired about 50,000 rounds in my lifetime. On a forum such as this I could never in good conscience recommend that anyone who buys a gun for the first time just go out and blow off a couple of hundred rounds and now they will be ready to conquer the world. Ridiculous!


You right but no one that I know would ever become the Idea to do that with a hand firearm. That is really ridicules!
But desertman if you would be right and people would need 3000 rounds and more until they are able to place a defense shot in a defense distance, that would at least explain why the democrats running the show.


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## desertman

PT111Pro:


> You right but no one that I know would ever become the Idea to do that with a hand firearm. That is really ridicules!


People do some pretty stupid things otherwise there never would be any accidents, some lady out here threw a gun in her purse, the damn thing went off in a supermarket parking lot. Luckily no one was hit. I've gone shooting with people who have left a loaded and cocked rifle against a tree while they ran out to check their target. Probably all Democrats except for maybe "Saildesign', no that can't be I do not hang out with Democrats. I also have gone shooting with some people who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a .22 rifle even after a few hundred rounds. *Everybody is different.* Of course I can't be the judge of everyone so I picked a reasonable number that would probably suit the average person.

At least where I live *anyone without any experience* with a firearm who has a clean criminal record can go out and buy a handgun load it up and carry it on their person. I kind of like it that way, it is indeed a "Constitutional Right". However if people continue to do foolish and stupid things with their firearms that right will soon become a privilege and every one of us will pay the consequences. We can't let that happen. An individual might find themselves having to use their firearms in all types of situations, crowded conditions, low lighting conditions, moving targets, just to name a few. It might be your wife or kids stumbling around at night. What about a stray shot that goes through the window and takes out the neighbor? People do tend to get a little nervous and shaky when faced with a potentially life or death situation. How sure are you of yourself? Have you ever faced it? Sorry "PT" a few hundred rounds out of a Taurus that is thrown in a drawer and seldom used is not going to cut it. Not ridiculous at all not in the least. If any individual is not willing to become proficient with a handgun they really have no business getting one at all. Whether that takes a few hundred rounds or a few thousand rounds so be it.


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## Steve M1911A1

PT111Pro said:


> Now come on Steve. Shooting a gun is not Rocket science. I say every adult with healthy motor skills and a normal mind set shoot after little training with a hand firearm a possible aggressor in the chest or face...


If you wish to perform at that level of accuracy _while in a save-your-life panic_, you have to have practiced enough that everything you do happens almost "on autopilot."

When you are confronted with a real life-threatening attack, believe me: You will experience panic. In spades.

If you cannot properly perform your shooting skills while your brain is trying hard to be elsewhere, you will come off second-best in a two-man contest.

Don't argue. Instead, try it sometime. Then tell me about it.


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## PT111Pro

I'll see what you are saying. I don't know if your right because I don't feel panik using my gun. I had that scenario in war areas to often. My nervousness always comes afterwarth. 
But if that is right, than we should not encourage anyone to carry a gun before that person had years and years of training with a firearm. Don't you agree that if your scenario is right than newbies will be causing immense danger for their entire surrounding area instead of self protection?


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## desertman

Steve M1911A1:


> When you are confronted with a real life-threatening attack, believe me: You will experience panic. In spades.


Indeed you are correct! When it happened to me I was still shaky kind of in shock even after those kids took off. My first reaction was complete surprise, my second was go for my gun, there really is not that much time to think. What may happen in the next fraction of a second could change my life forever. I didn't have time to get into a shooting stance, I started to draw the weapon and at one point one of the kids shouted "He's got a gun!". And they were gone! Just a bunch of punk kids about 16 or 17 looking for trouble thinking they were tough. Hanging out in the parking lot of a convenience store. Christ, I could have shot those kids! I couldn't freakin' believe it. I went home and called the police, no cell phones back then as it was in the early eighties. Found out later on that the store had been robbed before whether it was the same kids I have no idea.


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## desertman

PT111Pro:


> Don't you agree that if your scenario is right than newbies will be causing immense danger for their entire surrounding area instead of self protection?


You've got that right my friend. Nobody's saying that people need years and years of training, if that were the case very few would even be able to afford it. Government would have to require it and I'm betting that most of the people on this forum would find that unacceptable. But a few hundred rounds in a gun that gets seldom used is just plain irresponsible. What we have to do is to encourage people who are new to this game to do the right thing on their own rather than have it mandated by an overbearing government bureaucracy. We can be our own best friends or our own worst enemy. The choice is ours.


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## Steve M1911A1

PT111Pro said:


> ...we should not encourage anyone to carry a gun before that person had years and years of training with a firearm. Don't you agree that if your scenario is right than newbies will be causing immense danger for their entire surrounding area instead of self protection?


I believe that everyone who wants to carry any kind of self-defense weapon -- gun, knife, pepper spray, baseball bat -- first needs training in how to properly and effectively use that weapon. I also believe that anyone who wants to carry a self-defense weapon should first have made himself very familiar with the state and federal laws pertaining to self defense and the use of weapons.
Further, I believe that anyone who carries a weapon of any kind needs to continually practice its effective use, making that use both automatic and reflexive. I also believe that anyone who carries a weapon and does not continually practice its use is a self-delusional fool.

At the same time, I am unsure whether or not such learning and practicing should be mandated by law. While I prefer to believe that responsible people understand the need for knowledge and practice, I also see that most of the people alive today have little or no understanding of, or feeling for, personal responsibility.


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## desertman

Steve M1911A1:


> At the same time, I am unsure whether or not such learning and practicing should be mandated by law. While I prefer to believe that responsible people understand the need for knowledge and practice, I also see that most of the people alive today have little or no understanding of, or feeling for, personal responsibility.


That's kind of where I am too. I voluntarily took tactical handgun courses, read books such as Masad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" and others. Obtained a concealed weapons permit (CWP) although it is not required in Arizona. A lot of people that I know have also done the same. The permit has many advantages: reciprocity with other states, no need for NICS check when buying a gun, you can enter establishments that serve alcohol providing you do not drink, respect from law enforcement and possibly the criminal justice system if the need ever arises. You also learn about your home state's and federal firearms laws. I mentioned the criminal justice system because if the need ever arose to use the gun for self defense at least the courts would know that you had some type of knowledge of state laws and received at least some degree of training. In other words you just didn't walk into a gun store purchase a gun and strap it on your hip. Which is allowed providing you have a clean criminal record. As far as contact with law enforcement such as a traffic stop, accident, whatever the police would know that you have a CWP and more than likely would not have to detain you in order to find out whether you were a prohibited possessor or not. Which they have every legal right to do.

The biggest fear I have with mandatory training and permits is when a "right" now becomes a privilege. There are just too many unscrupulous loathsome politicians that will do all that they can to prevent law abiding people from obtaining firearms. They could mandate expensive insurance policies along with prohibitively expensive fees, frequent renewals and testing, dictate what type of firearms you own, how many and how they are stored. When how and where you are allowed to carry and for specific purposes such as "hunting and target shooting only" as some states now do. Require registration of all guns which will eventually lead to confiscation. All the crap that they have proposed in the past and are still pushing for. While the criminal element in society are totally unaffected by any of that bullshit. I like the way we have it here in Arizona a "Constitutional Carry State" where permits are optional and firearms do not have to be registered or listed on the permit.

At least for me guns have always been a way of life. I'm interested in them, love both working on and shooting them and wish to know everything I can about them. I don't view them as something that I have and hope that I will never need. Unfortunately for some that is just what they are. They just do not want to take the time to learn how to use them properly. I've heard some people say they leave guns in their glove compartment. Well that's just great, what if somebody breaks into your car and steals it? People that leave guns laying around the house. These kinds of people. How do you get through to them before the government gets involved and screws us all? Hopefully forums such as this are good start. As I've mentioned earlier: We can be our own best friends or our own worst enemy. The choice is ours.


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## TheReaper

I going to pass on the Taurus and buy a HiPoint. They must really be great guns for the price.


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## Steve M1911A1

TheReaper said:


> I going to pass on the Taurus and buy a HiPoint...


Now, there's quality for you!
You can tell by the name.

(Taurus is just a load of old bull, but Hi-Point stands alone atop the pinnacle of real quality.)


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