# What Hand Gun?



## sloopy312 (Sep 23, 2009)

Hi All,
I've shot a lot of rifles and shot guns but not pistols. I was a military marksman but that was rifle-old M2 and later M16.
We're moving deep into the woods. Some say I should carry a handgun because of all the black bear and cougars we have, but I have never been bothered by them and would use mace if I had to. However I am thinking of these handguns: 
The HK Mark 23 Caliber .45 ACP pistol [my first choice. I could care less about a concealed weapons permit as I want people to see my gun. I like this pistol because of it's stopping power, longer barrel, and reliability. But I want to make sure it is the original HK and not the Umarex which HK sold rights to. No stores carry it here but some will be. I need to see how it fits my hand and how quick I can get back on target.

Also looked at a Colt .45 Mark4 which fit my hand well.
Also considering a .40 USP which a police officer friend carries.
and maybe a double stack .45 Para.
I know I want at least a 5" barrel, some weight to the gun to absorb recoil, and good sights. The Colt I looked at was a competition model with great sights and feel, but cost was 1500.00 and I can get the Mark23 for about 1900.00.

So after all I said what is your opinion?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Well....

The HKMk23 is a waste. You're really not gaining anything over a USP/USP Expert. An HK in .40 makes a nice carry gun, but for woods use, well I suppose it would be fine, but not my choice.

The Hi-Cap Para's are OK, but I would definitely have to recommend a stainless gun, the Parakote finish is crap and if you're going to open carry the gun you're going to want a more resistant/easy to maintain finish.

As for the 1911, sure why not, but don't get a target gun, get a base model MILSPEC from Springfield, not a target gun/show piece.

However. If you're looking to use the gun against 4 legged critters. I would definitely go with a revolver of the .357mag, .44mag, .45Long Colt variety simply for the ruggedness of the design, more powerful cartridges. The only real advantage the auto has is capacity, and you're really not going to need 15 rounds of .40 on a clawed critter, unless you've got a pack of wolves in the area...

If you're set on an auto, and want to open carry, well this is about the only time I can say this. Get a Desert Eagle in .44Mag or .357Mag. Another hot number would be a Glock 20 in 10mm or something in .357 Sig.

_*I *_would probably go with the Glock 20, it's probably the best of both worlds, Semi-auto capacity, lots of power.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

:watching:


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Todd said:


> :watching:


Well..I got a ______ and it's the best. you should get one because I have one :smt083:anim_lol:


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## sloopy312 (Sep 23, 2009)

VAMarine: The HKMk23 is a waste. You're really not gaining anything over a USP/USP Expert...
Thats why I joined this post to get some good information but I would like your reasons for not liking the HKMK23. From what I read it's pretty accurate, great sights and heavy enough to absorb some recoil. My main concern is if it will fit my hand where I can access all it's features. But if there negatives I would like to know them. 
Your comments on the USP are good and that is still in consideration.
Thanks for replying.


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## dondavis3 (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, I'm glad no one on this forum is opinionated :anim_lol:


:smt1099


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

sloopy312 said:


> VAMarine: The HKMk23 is a waste. You're really not gaining anything over a USP/USP Expert...
> Thats why I joined this post to get some good information but I would like your reasons for not liking the HKMK23. From what I read it's pretty accurate, great sights and heavy enough to absorb some recoil. My main concern is if it will fit my hand where I can access all it's features. But if there negatives I would like to know them.
> Your comments on the USP are good and that is still in consideration.
> Thanks for replying.


OK, lets look at the MK 23

It's big, it's heavy, it holds 12 rounds, you don't need a .45 THAT BIG, the barrel is almost 6" long. Repeat after me: A longer barrel takes longer to clear the holster

Yes, weight helps tame recoil, but it's not like .45acp us unmanageable. For the size and weight of the MK23 you could get something in a more effective caliber for critter control.

If you still want a huge HK, the USP Expert comes in a couple hundred bucks cheape. You get the same round count in a smaller, but still quite effective package.

Now I'm sure some Rainbow Six wanna-be is going to bring up "SOCOM" and the uber cool SEALs and the MK23. So what, they basically abandoned the thing for the Sig 226, if it's so great, why isn't in in use more often? I even say the same thing about the 1911 when it get's brought up that "X" Agency still uses it, who cares, it's a team of guys carrying anyhting from M4's to belt-fed machine guns, if an FBI HRT or LAPD Swat has to go to their 1911s, they have all ready expended ALL ammo on their MAIN PRIMARY gun which *IS NOT* the 1911.

Think about it this way, the MK23 is a huge gun, but has a lesser capacity of a Glock 21, Para P14, and FNP-45. Except for the Desert Eagles, the MK23 probably has the crappiest size/capacity ratio of any handgun out there. It's a polymer gun that is almost the same wieght as an all steel 1911.

I suppose I should put it like this: The MK 23 has NO pros that can't be found in a lesser costing more reasonably sized package.


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## gunluver (Jul 23, 2009)

Have you considered the springfield XD45 tactical? It's a full size gun with a 5 in barrel AND has a 13 rd. mag capacity. Not to mention that (to me at least) has proven 100% reliable and accurate.


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## sloopy312 (Sep 23, 2009)

Thanks for your great information. That's why I'm here to learn. I looked at the USP HK .45 today and it felt good in my hands and about a 1000.00 bucks cheaper than the Mark23. I'm going to wait to test the Mark23 just to see how it feels and shoots. I won't mind the extra lenght-I actually perfer it because I wear glasses [TRI's] and that extra length helps. I also know I want a double action. I'm not worried about clearing the holster quicker. If I get the MK23 I'll want a good holster for it, but a gun shop said I'd have to get it hand made as there are none out there??
But I'll try the other .45s and pick what feels best and has a good reliabilty record. Again thanks.
As a side note what grain load would You use. I want enough stopping power but I don't want a missed shot to penetrate my neighbors home walls and hurt him?
Again Thanks


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

sloopy312 said:


> Thanks for your great information. That's why I'm here to learn. I looked at the USP HK .45 today and it felt good in my hands and about a 1000.00 bucks cheaper than the Mark23. I'm going to wait to test the Mark23 just to see how it feels and shoots. I won't mind the extra lenght-I actually perfer it because I wear glasses [TRI's] and that extra length helps. I also know I want a double action. I'm not worried about clearing the holster quicker. If I get the MK23 I'll want a good holster for it, but a gun shop said I'd have to get it hand made as there are none out there??
> But I'll try the other .45s and pick what feels best and has a good reliabilty record. Again thanks.
> As a side note what grain load would You use. I want enough stopping power but I don't want a missed shot to penetrate my neighbors home walls and hurt him?
> Again Thanks


The only holsters you're going to find are the nylon military style holsters. As for ammo, stick with 230, if you're worried about over penetration, stick with standard velocity, no +P.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

DevilsJohnson said:


> Well..I got a ______ and it's the best. you should get one because I have one :smt083:anim_lol:


The _____ is the best! You're so right! I love mine!

I assume we're talking about Sigs of course. :smt033


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

From your choices I voted for the USP 40. Given your intended purpose I would consider it to be the most versatile. It is rugged, reliable, reasonable weight and size to capacity ratio's. A magnum would be vastly superior for bear but the 40 in a stout load would take care of cats and just about anything else. Colt 1911 in .45, again from your list, would be my second choice. Mark 23 for some of the reasons already sited would not interest me personally but if you like it, can justify the cost and it meets your needs then I think it would do it's part for you. Kind of of like the H2 hummer. Dozens of logical reasons not to get it but if you really like it and can afford it then why not. It certainly works. In the role you've described however a regular USP in either 45 or 40 seems more reasonable.

Off your list (if your interested in other options) in a semi auto I would suggest taking a look at the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm or 2nd the Glock 20 recommendation. In a revolver the Ruger Red Hawk 44 mag for Dbl/Single action or one of the Ruger Black Hawks in Single action only. I am a hunter and spend time in the woods as well. For me, in a semi auto do it all handgun, the bee's knee's would be a Delta Elite but that's based purely on my own tastes and priorities. YMMV.


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## Sonny Boy (Sep 20, 2009)

*HK Mark 23*

I have around ten HKs. The best shooting, mildest recoil, smoothest trigger, never fail under any conditions....Mark 23. It has an o-ring on the barrel, it has internal SS trigger components, slide coating impenetrable to salt water, match trigger, silent decocker, adjustable rear sights, all something the USP lacks.

Not to disagree with VAMarine who is a higher member status than I, but the HK Mark 23 is one of the fineset handguns money can buy. The US Seals use it for their special forces and operations. There is a big difference of both construction and field performance between the Mark 23 and the USP line. It is akin to comparing a Ford to a Rolls Royce.

What is the correct caliber for taking care of varmits, may be something else, but if you want a .45 ACP, HK Mark 23.

The Mark 23 sits by my bedside with a Wilcox Laser light combo.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Sonny Boy said:


> I have around ten HKs. The best shooting, mildest recoil, smoothest trigger, never fail under any conditions....Mark 23. It has an o-ring on the barrel, it has internal SS trigger components, slide coating impenetrable to salt water, match trigger, silent decocker, adjustable rear sights, all something the USP lacks.
> 
> Not to disagree with VAMarine who is a higher member status than I, but the HK Mark 23 is one of the fineset handguns money can buy. The US Seals use it for their special forces and operations. There is a big difference of both construction and field performance between the Mark 23 and the USP line. It is akin to comparing a Ford to a Rolls Royce.
> 
> ...


See post #7 regarding the SEALs....(no, I'm not calling Sonny a Rainbow wanna-be.)

I'm not saying it's a bad gun, but as you have 10 HKs and leave the Mk23 by the bed, I can safely assume that you don't CARRY the Mk23 on a daily basis.

Sure, it's got cool features that no one really needs and it's been replaced by the Sig 226 for general issue which has none of those features.

So as I have stated, for it's size, capacity, and role of "carrying around Washington State, it's still a waste....Meaning it's a waste of what it is. Sure if I have to swim 3 miles from a submarine in the dark to recon an enemy beach and neutralize the enemy with a suppressed .45 with an o-ring and ability to be silently de-cocked, I'd take the MK23.

But for hiking through the woods, I'll take something a little more sensible.

:watching:


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Todd said:


> The _____ is the best! You're so right! I love mine!
> 
> I assume we're talking about Sigs of course. :smt033


Funny thing was I was wearing my 229 at the time of my other post..hahahahaaa!!!!

VA Marine..I have a Para LTC That was carried daily until I got my 229 Sig and not it splits time with that. It has the Parakote finish and it's fine. Little wear but after a couple years in and out of a holster it looks pretty good. I like a stainless model as much the next guy but as far as that one is concerned it appears to be a good finish. I know it's not a double stack but the finish is the same. As to weather or not I'd advise someone to get a double stack para I'd tell them to be sure and get hold of one ot see of you like the grip. The more I try shooting my friends Tac-Four the less I like it. I'm not small handed. Something about the 1911 type frame and the wider grip. I do like my P16 but it's a 40 and I put a thin set of Pierce wrap around grips on it. A tighter recoil spring and better barrel bushing and it's a tack driver at 50 yards. If it wa sa 45 I don't think I'd lie it near as much.

I'm 100% with you on the not getting a target model 1911 if you plan on shooting more than targets. Any tight fitted weapon like a target model of anything is not good for much else. Unless you have time to clean it daily fired or not. You can do a couple tweaks to a Mil-Spec grade weapon and get more than enough accuracy from it anyway. I'll also agree with you on the revolver comment too. Depending on the size of critters you are planning on hitting any of the suggestions you made would be great. I am one that will lean to a 44 for things any bigger than me but that's just me. I like a revolver because it's just less to have available to go wrong and capacity is usually not an issue in those situations. They make speed-loaders anyway right :smt023

sloopy312..I'm not sure about a 1911 for larger game like what you're talking about. Can't say it wont work and I'm a huge 1911 fan but I would want something like a 357 or 44 for things like black bear and cougars.
I'm sure you can get a load for a 45 ACP that might do pretty well but that added bullet speed of the revolver loads would make me personally feel a little better. A 40 is a good round and seems ot have gained a lot of popularity these last couple/few years. I've liked it for some time but you didn't see as many three years ago as you do not..In peoples collections anyway. Now they're everywhere. A lot of really nice ones out there too to choose from. I'm partial to Sigs for 40's myself but I do own the Para and it's no slouch. The FNP 40 is another really good one too if the Tupperware gun is your flavor. I'm not all that well experienced with a 10mm. I've shot some. But not owned one so I can't really give a good revue there. I do like the ballistic info on the round though.


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## sloopy312 (Sep 23, 2009)

*Mark 23*



Sonny Boy said:


> I have around ten HKs. The best shooting, mildest recoil, smoothest trigger, never fail under any conditions....Mark 23. It has an o-ring on the barrel, it has internal SS trigger components, slide coating impenetrable to salt water, match trigger, silent decocker, adjustable rear sights, all something the USP lacks.
> 
> Not to disagree with VAMarine who is a higher member status than I, but the HK Mark 23 is one of the fineset handguns money can buy. The US Seals use it for their special forces and operations. There is a big difference of both construction and field performance between the Mark 23 and the USP line. It is akin to comparing a Ford to a Rolls Royce.
> 
> ...


Thanks Sonny and Everyone Else,
I'll be owning just one handgun and if I get the Mark 23 it will depend on whether or not it will comfortably fit my hand and I can get back on target quick enough. For the bear and cougars I will use grizzle mace, which some Alaska friends of mine said works well. The .45 would be the last resort as I am a tresspasser on their property.
Again thanks you all for great advice.
Also the lazer light interested me and also what grain load would you use to make sure your attacker did not get up?


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## doose71 (May 8, 2009)

Thank you for the info/opinion on the MK 23. I have a friend whom got one used with 5 mags for $1500. I think he got away with murder with that price. I have not seen his gun but he says it has only been shot once and, well with 5 mags included...how can you go wrong?? I am interested in the MK 23, not for carry or general use but more for collectability. I know, 2 grand is a lot to spend for a safe queen and I have heard that mags for the gun run $50-60. Is it true that HK doesn't make the MK23 anymore?? Someone posted something about "umarex" gaining rights to the MK 23, how does one tell if its an HK or a Umarex?? (if its not apparently obvious:smt042:smt042) Thank you for the info. By the way, a local gun shop here in Columbus OH has 2 Mk23's for sale, one used $1999 and one brand new $2100. I am looking for a little cheaper but I may be on a wild goose chase.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Skip the mk 23 and go with the USP Tactical it is a great gun and will fit your hand, it has the o-ring seal and all the extras of the 23 in a smaller package. I would go with a good plain jane 1911a1 GI model. It has a great track record that no other type has or will ever have. As said before for bear country a good revolver in 44, 45 would do you better.


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