# 12 Ga or 20 Ga For home defense?



## DTrain

What's your opinion and why? I've read in this article that the 20 Ga makes for a good home defense round with lighter recoil than the 12.


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## fivehourfrenzy

> Yow. Load your 10 gauge with whatever the hell you want.


Lol. From a ballistics standpoint, a 12-gauge has better stopping power than a 20-gauge. But, if you dislike and/or can't handle the 12-gauge blast and recoil, you won't reap the benefits it has over the 20-gauge, but still suffer the downsides. So for some people, the 20-gauge would be a better choice. It has less recoil and allows quicker follow up shots. But if well placed, a 2 3/4" load of 00 buckshot should drop anyone with one shot, maybe two if they're all cracked out or on PCP.

I'm wondering about the birdshot versus buckshot for super close quarters. I'm not at all questioning Chuck Hawks authori-TIE, but even at ten feet, I'd still rather have buckshot. It's heavier and would still do more damage to a human body IMO. Overpenetration is a concern for me as I live in an apartment with thin walls all around. Still...rather stay loaded with buckshot. Slugs are out for sure.


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## TOF

At ten feet there is not a great deal of difference between birdshot and slugs in regards to killing a man. They will both do it very effectively. 12 or 20 doesn't realy matter.

:smt1099


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## Snowman

If you hit the bad guy COM, it won't matter if it was a 12 or 20 gauge.


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## NAS T MAG

Shotguns are just too unwieldy. that's why I bought the Taurus Judge.
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver


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## fivehourfrenzy

Snowman said:


> If you hit the bad guy COM, it won't matter if it was a 12 or 20 gauge.


What's COM?


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## DTrain

I believe Center of Mass.


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## fivehourfrenzy

Ah, that makes sense.


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## neophyte

*model*

fivehourfrenzy: Sir; technically;
'combat objective model'

A lot of words to say; YOU better have a dang good * BACKUP plan.*


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## Snowman

Yeah, I meant center of mass. Somewhere between the gut and neck.


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## Snowman

NAS T MAG said:


> Shotguns are just too unwieldy. that's why I bought the Taurus Judge.
> http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=199&category=Revolver


I'm sorry, but a Judge is simply no replacement for a shotgun. If you're in a vehicle or something it's fine. For home defense I'd want something besides a 410.


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## Mike Barham

A 20-gauge loaded with #3 Buck is an _extremely_ effective weapon. "Stopping power" discussions are sort of moot when you reach this power level. The only real reasons I choose the 12 for defense are because good guns and loads are more easily available, and practice ammo is often cheaper and more common. Power doesn't even enter the equation, because 20 gauge buckshot is amply powerful to put a man down (and probably permanently).

A short-barreled 20 gauge 1100 is an excellent, very easy gun to shoot well, offer plenty of power, and handles almost like an M1 Carbine. Some people in this thread would know this is a major advantage of the 20, if they gained any significant experience with shotguns before they posted.

The unwieldy Judge is certainly no substitute for a real shotgun. It has no stock, which is the thing that makes a shotgun easier to hit with, especially under stress, than a pistol.


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## fivehourfrenzy

Snowman said:


> For home defense I'd want something besides a 410.


+1...big difference between a 12/20-gauge and a .410, even with a stock.

Here's what Chuck Hawks has to say about a .410:



> None of the above really applies in this weak caliber. The .410 is only a half-way decent manstopper with slugs. Choose the Federal Classic (F412RS) or Winchester Super-X (X41RS5) 1/5 ounce (88 grain) hollowpoint slug. Never use birdshot. American Derringer Corp. has produced an odd buckshot load for the .410 (withthree 000 pellets), and I advise you to ignore it. Lose the .410 and buy a 20 gauge pump shotgun.


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## Snowman

fivehourfrenzy said:


> +1...big difference between a 12/20-gauge and a .410, even with a stock.
> 
> Here's what Chuck Hawks has to say about a .410:


Haha. I recognized the 10 gauge quote from before, and this one too. I spent a long time one night and read the whole thing on chuckhawks.com. It's really interesting.

Chuck Hawks didn't actually write it, but it's a good read anyway. :smt023

Mike is spot on about the 20 gauge being easy to handle. I still have my 870 youth model that I got many years ago for this reason.


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## fivehourfrenzy

Snowman said:


> Haha. I recognized the 10 gauge quote from before, and this one too. I spent a long time one night and read the whole thing on chuckhawks.com. It's really interesting.
> 
> Chuck Hawks didn't actually write it, but it's a good read anyway. :smt023


Oh yeah, I remember reading the disclaimer at the top. Still a great article, and interesting nonetheless. I found the part about not using any 9mm rounds over 125-grain to be interesting. Also, the author had reason to believe a 155-grain or 165-grain .40S&W is more street-proven than a 180-grain. I personally keep mine loaded with 180-grain Gold Dots, but I can notice a slight difference in muzzle flip between 180-grain and 165-grain. I wouldn't have a problem with loading it up with 155-grain Gold Dots if they're A) proven to be just as effective or more so as 180-grain, and B) produce significantly less muzzle flip. As Mike and the rest say, the ballistic performance differences between the different brands/weights of bullets are minimal, but less muzzle flip is enough reason to drop down to 155-grain.


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## NAS T MAG

Mike Barham said:


> The unwieldy Judge is certainly no substitute for a real shotgun. It has no stock, which is the thing that makes a shotgun easier to hit with, especially under stress, than a pistol.


Well, I certainly agree. Kinda like a Volkswagen is no substitute for a Porsche! But, with two shots of .410 buckshot and 3 backups of .45 HP's, I feel I can make someone say more than ouch.

All my range time with the Judge is at about 10 feet. It's a point and shoot gun not aim and shoot. Really doest even need sights for the distance it would be used. Plus, it fits nicely on the end table.

Out of curiosity, have you fired one?


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## JeffWard

Remember, that at the 10' range, buckshot IS a slug.

At 1 inch of pattern spread per yard out of a cylinder choke gun, the load of buck is a gaping 3 inches across. Brutal to get hit with, but easy to miss with. The Hollywood concept of a point and shoot "alley sweeper" of a shotgun, is just as wrong as the "endless cylinder".

I agree that a Rem 870 Youth-sized 20 Ga would be one heck of a self defense gun, for size, pointability, and power. In fact there are a few places (like behind the seat in a truck, that the Youth 20 would work VERY well).

Damn it... now I want one. Betcha they are CHEAP used too...


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## TOF

Jeff, what you need to round out your arsenal are a few Shotgrenades as seen on future weapons. I believe you need to have a 12 guage to use them however so you better rethink that 20. :anim_lol: :anim_lol:

:smt1099


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## Mike Barham

NAS T MAG said:


> Out of curiosity, have you fired one?


Nah, just handled one at SHOT Show, or maybe it was NRA Show. I don't really have any interest in the gun, since it's really clunky (in my hands, anyway) and seems a poor substitute for a handgun that can be shot really fast and well. Anyway, I don't use any revolvers for defense because they're weak in so many areas compared to autos.

I don't need to fire a Judge to know that a shotgun with a stock is easier to shoot well under stress than _any_ handgun - even a huge revolver chambered for shotgun shells. :mrgreen:


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## Mike Barham

JeffWard said:


> Damn it... now I want one. Betcha they are CHEAP used too...


If you come across any that are cheaper than the (much more common) 12 gauge, let me know. I'll take two.


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## DTrain

Remington has an 870 Express Synthetic that has 7 round capacity, 18" barrel and is available in 20ga (order no 81100). Would this make a decent home defense shotgun?

Or maybe better yet... 
http://www.remington.com/products/f...exclusives/model_870_express_7-shot_20-ga.asp


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## NAS T MAG

Mike Barham said:


> Nah, just handled one at SHOT Show, or maybe it was NRA Show. I don't really have any interest in the gun, since it's really clunky (in my hands, anyway) and seems a poor substitute for a handgun that can be shot really fast and well. Anyway, I don't use any revolvers for defense because they're weak in so many areas compared to autos.
> 
> I don't need to fire a Judge to know that a shotgun with a stock is easier to shoot well under stress than _any_ handgun - even a huge revolver chambered for shotgun shells. :mrgreen:


While I respect your opinions, you might be the only person I've read that says an auto is better than a revolver for SD. I just don't see any reports of FTF on revolvers, but I sure see a lot on autos.

To each his own, I guess. That's one of the reasons I buy different styles, realizing that I will probably never have to use one for SD, I just get the ones that interest me. But, if it doesn't fit in a holster, I don't want it.

Tom


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## Mike Barham

NAS T MAG said:


> you might be the only person I've read that says an auto is better than a revolver for SD. I just don't see any reports of FTF on revolvers, but I sure see a lot on autos.


Wow. You must not have delved too deeply into the defensive aspects of handguns, which is okay with me. But the overwhelming majority of upper-level defense instructors since at least Jeff Cooper have recommended autos for defense. As well, essentially all cops and all soldiers carry autos, which they wouldn't do if the myth about autos being "jammamatics" was true. I have a pair of Glock pistols that have _never_ malfunctioned, in thousands of rounds, and many other shooters can say the same about their XDs, SIGs, Berettas, HKs, etc.



> To each his own, I guess. That's one of the reasons I buy different styles, realizing that I will probably never have to use one for SD, I just get the ones that interest me. But, if it doesn't fit in a holster, I don't want it.


That's cool, and I'm not saying everyone requires a stocked shotgun for defense. I'm just saying it's a far more effective fighting tool than any handgun. I don't think any serious, experienced person would dispute that.


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## Mike Barham

DTrain said:


> Remington has an 870 Express Synthetic that has 7 round capacity, 18" barrel and is available in 20ga (order no 81100). Would this make a decent home defense shotgun?
> 
> Or maybe better yet...
> http://www.remington.com/products/f...exclusives/model_870_express_7-shot_20-ga.asp


That shotgun, along with some training and a few cases of practice ammo, would make an _outstanding_ - not just decent - home defense gun.


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## Guest

DTrain said:


> Remington has an 870 Express Synthetic that has 7 round capacity, 18" barrel and is available in 20ga (order no 81100). Would this make a decent home defense shotgun?


Don't see why it wouldn't be a good home defense weapon. I like guns that can serve multiple purposes like bird hunting or clay pigeon shooting so I personally wouldn't select that model. If you buy it be sure and shoot it so you can adjust the stock and get used to it. I agree with Mike that #3 buck would be the way to go but you can practice with less expensive (none of them are cheap anymore) bird shot and use enough #3 buck to see where the pattern is hitting and how it feels.


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## DTrain

Mike Barham said:


> That shotgun, along with some training and a few cases of practice ammo, would make an _outstanding_ - not just decent - home defense gun.


Which one Mike? There's actually two there I guess the only difference is the linked one has the Knoxx stock where as the first one I mentioned has a regular stock.


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## Mike Barham

DTrain said:


> Which one Mike? There's actually two there I guess the only difference is the linked one has the Knoxx stock where as the first one I mentioned has a regular stock.


Either would work great for an HD gun. Pick the one you like.

I generally prefer a standard stock. That's what I have and will keep on my own 870, for a couple of reasons:

- Recoil is more comfortable (though this isn't as big a deal with a 20 as a 12).
- It works from Port Arms, unlike a pistol grip stock that really only works well from Low Ready. Low Ready is great for kicking in doors and gunfighting (simulated or otherwise), but sucks for about everything else. Ditto the pistol grip stock.

The Knoxx stock does have the big advantage of adjustability, however. Most people under 6' tall tend to do better with stocks shorter than the average American "adult" stock. Rather than having to install a youth stock, or cut down an existing stock, the Knoxx allows you to instantly shrink the LOP.

If I wanted a 20 gauge 870, and was buying new, I'd get the 21" Youth Express model and call it good. 13" LOP in a standard stock, barrel short enough for HD but long enough for upland birds. Perfect, and not expensive. But like *TerryP*, I like multi-purpose guns.


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## fivehourfrenzy

C'mon Mike, you know you want a true HD shotgun!










:smt082:smt082:smt082


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## Mike Barham

Since I am not in a _Terminator_ movie, I will pass on the SPAS-12, thanks.


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## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> Since I am not in a _Terminator_ movie, I will pass on the SPAS-12, thanks.


Hey now, they used it in Jurassic Park. He almost got a shot off before they raptor came out of the bushes and mauled him. Lol.


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## Mike Barham

I'm more interested in shooting clay pigeons, doves, quail, and if I am very unfortunate, a home invader, than CGI dinosaurs. :mrgreen:


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## fivehourfrenzy

When the dinosaurs return, you will eat your words. :anim_lol::anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## soldierboy029

Either would work but I would choose the 12 gauge just because it is much more versatile and has more load choices then other gauges. You can buy featherlite loads that kick less then the 20 because ammo makers have experimented more with the 12 then others, but you can go much heavier if you want also. Although for self-defense inside a house I would go with #4 buckshot, 27 Pellets that are .240 caliber traveling at 1325 fps are awfully effective, but also less likely to over penetrate walls then #00 Buck, they will also pattern more closely.


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## Mike Barham

#00 only penetrates marginally more than #4 in building materials. #4 and #1 seem to penetrate the same (6 sheets of 5/8" sheetrock), while #00 goes through 7-8. Looked at another way, the smaller shot will go through 3 interior walls, while the bigger #00 will go through 3.5 or 4 interior walls. I think that's sort of an academic difference, since any of them will sail through most of a normally-constructed house.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any low-recoil ("tactical") #4 or #1 loads. I think the penetration trade-off is worth it to get the lighter recoil.

The 12 gauge is clearly more versatile than the 20 for general use. However, when strictly confined to home defense, the 20 is amply powerful and the guns are slicker and easier to handle.

EDIT: I just learned that Federal makes a low-recoil #4 round (called H132). This might be a very excellent option for the 12 gauge for those who don't like the larger buckshot.


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## sheepdog

I chose the 20 for home defense...my 14-year-old can handle it fine and I've bought three-one for the truck...a Revelation(Mossberg) with 20" bbl for $99, a like-new Mossberg 6-shot for $149, and a Winchester 1300 with 28" bbl for $149...all clean and sound....I load in the Mossberg four slugs followed by two buck, and have trained my sons to shoot it like a rifle...in case a family member is being held, noone can make a head shot with a load of buckshot...I load the one in the truck the same....for the same reason....recently I put a Winchester 1300 12 ga. on layaway...extended magazine....I will load Aguila shortshells in it(Winch is the only pump that feeds them reliably) both slugs and buck, and keep plenty of full-sized 2 3/4 of each for reloads...that'll give me about a 13-shot pump...reason being that if it gets hairy in the streets I'll find a lot more 12 ga. than 20 when I go to buy ammo.....it's chambered for 3" if that's all I can find....all are full-stock...pistol grips are hard to handle and aim well with...look bad but that's no use if you can't place your shots...even the police use most often a full-stocked 14" entry gun....I've tried pistol grips in 12 and 20-won't have another....


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## soldierboy029

Heres a good link for performance of Shotgun Rounds

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html


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## Mike Barham

soldierboy029 said:


> Heres a good link for performance of Shotgun Rounds


Excellent link! Thanks for posting that. I've bookmarked it for reference. I hope in future tests he will include the reduced recoil #4 load I mentioned above.


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## soldierboy029

Yeah that would be nice, In a lot of defense situations in the home I think the people who don't take the time to master the art of the defensive handgun resort to shotguns. And a lot of these people might be a littlte intimidated by the recoil of full power loads especially the Magnum loadings. I find it interesting that the 00 Buckshot load from Remington Penetrates as good if not better then the full power stuff. I've always wondered why people beat themselves up just to get minimal gains.


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## Mike Barham

soldierboy029 said:


> I find it interesting that the 00 Buckshot load from Remington Penetrates as good if not better then the full power stuff. I've always wondered why people beat themselves up just to get minimal gains.


Yeah, that jumped out at me, too. Not only does it kick less, it usually patterns better, too. I think a lot of people don't know the low-recoil stuff exists, or maybe it is hard to find in some areas. I think I mentioned - in this thread or the other current shotgun thread - that the ONLY buckshot I found in Yuma, AZ (with a population over 100,000 _legal_ residents) was Federal #4. Maybe it's an availability issue?


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## fivehourfrenzy

Mike Barham said:


> Yeah, that jumped out at me, too. Not only does it kick less, it usually patterns better, too. I think a lot of people don't know the low-recoil stuff exists, or maybe it is hard to find in some areas. I think I mentioned - in this thread or the other current shotgun thread - that the ONLY buckshot I found in Yuma, AZ (with a population over 100,000 _legal_ residents) was Federal #4. Maybe it's an availability issue?


Couldn't you order stuff off the internet? I guess it could be a bit of a pain but I'd rather pay a little extra for shipping/signing and get the stuff I was looking for.


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## niadhf

JeffWard said:


> Remember, that at the 10' range, buckshot IS a slug.
> 
> At 1 inch of pattern spread per yard out of a cylinder choke gun, the load of buck is a gaping 3 inches across. Brutal to get hit with, but easy to miss with. The Hollywood concept of a point and shoot "alley sweeper" of a shotgun, is just as wrong as the "endless cylinder".
> 
> I agree that a Rem 870 Youth-sized 20 Ga would be one heck of a self defense gun, for size, pointability, and power. In fact there are a few places (like behind the seat in a truck, that the Youth 20 would work VERY well).
> 
> Damn it... now I want one. Betcha they are CHEAP used too...


I personally love my Sotegers Coach gun. 12 ga, short and quick. Not fast for more than 2, but......
I do some CAS, so: I have it, I like it, I practice with it. And that CG 12 ga 00 buck i got from a friend's father is still around. Heck, I think in the double ought, if its good enough for Armed forces, i can deal
:enforcer::enforcer:


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## morgart40

Just the other day I swear I saw on this topic somebody had posted 2 links with information regarding the laws for shipping guns and ammo. Does anybody know where that was or have any information regarding the shipping of ammo to northwest Ohio?


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## Mike Barham

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Couldn't you order stuff off the internet? I guess it could be a bit of a pain but I'd rather pay a little extra for shipping/signing and get the stuff I was looking for.


I could have, but it seemed like a lot of trouble for not much benefit. A full-charge #4 Buck load is perfectly satisfactory to me for defense. I'm not nearly as picky as a lot of guys when it comes to ammo. I realized a while back that nothing is perfect, and that *I*, not the ammo, am the defining factor.


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## khellandros66

I know i am a bit of a younging, but nothing beats a Mossburg 590 9 round 12ga with bird shot or even door breaching rounds, or a Ruger .38 special with glasers in a home defense situation those two are very reliable, will put a 300lbs man on pcp/coke down permanently and not risk killing a neighbor or even a relative hiding in a locked room.


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## Mike Barham

Both birdshot and Glasers are very short on penetration in human bodies, especially when heavily clad.

Glasers go through walls. Box O' Truth found 9mm Glaser Blue (the least penetrative Glaser) to go through six sheets of drywall. That equals three interior walls, and is about the same as conventional 9mm JHPs.

You have to hit the bad guy. All the stuff about rounds not overpenetrating is garbage. Anything powerful enough to put a man down will go through walls. It's just a fact of life. We have to *make the hits*.


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## Kagetsu

:anim_lol: Ok, yea. I like shotguns for a riot or defending yourself on the street when I don't have a semiauto rifle. But for home defense within the distance of a standard room,,, what, about 10 feet or so? Granted, any direct hit will cut the guts out of any target and drop'em like a sack of sand no matter the load. But why not a howitzer?


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## Mike Barham

Kagetsu said:


> :anim_lol: Ok, yea. I like shotguns for a riot or defending yourself on the street when I don't have a semiauto rifle. But for home defense within the distance of a standard room,,, what, about 10 feet or so? Granted, any direct hit will cut the guts out of any target and drop'em like a sack of sand no matter the load. But why not a howitzer?


Are you saying there is such a thing as too much power when someone is trying to hurt or kill you and/or your family?


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## fivehourfrenzy

I mean you could assume the buckshot is gonna miss and go through walls. Or you could make the hits and use the BG's internals to slow the shot down. I pick number 2.


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## Murdoch

Mike, I too am confused by Judge fans thinking they are a replacement for a shotgun...they might want to read this. To each his own if you like the gun for fun or snakes and such, but don't get it as a HD/PD gun.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm


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