# In Need of Help Deciding on a Handgun



## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

Hello.

I need help deciding which will make the best handgun for my purposes. I was wondering if someone here would be good enough to lend me their perspective.

I come from a family that hunts, and I served in the US Marines, so I am not a complete novice with firearms. in fact, I have shot miniguns and Mk 19s, but my experience with handguns is almost none. So it's fair to consider me to be looking for a "beginner" sort of handgun.

I want a handgun primarily for home defense. So although, as a beginner, I don't want much recoil, I need something with ENOUGH stopping power. If I could find something that meets those conditions and has good concealed carry potential, it would be a huge bonus. Also, it occurs to me that the best home defense firearm would be one that, for example, a teenage daughter, your wife and/or mother-in-law can use effectively, when you are not around to help protect them, albeit I have yet to see that point come up in discussions elsewhere.

Now, here is the part that could make you slam your laptop shut and just walk away: I want all this for between about $250-$450!

These are the options I have found so far. Please feel free to put them in order for me or tell me which you think is best for me.

*9mm Pistols:*
Sig P250 Subcompact in 9mm
S&W SD9VE (the one I've found in my price range is "low capacity")

*Revolvers:*
Taurus Model 85 (a regular weight one, with a polymer grip)
Rossi Model 461 (This would only be used for .38 +P, not .357)

*380. Auto:*
Ruger LC380
Glock 42
Taurus 738 TCP

My first choice would be the P250. Yet, I love the simplicity of revolvers; being able to grab something out of a sound sleep and not worry about it jamming or not working, has got to be a massive advantage in home defense situations. The lower capacity would seem not to be a significant factor, if it was just used for home defense purposes. However, the only revolver models I like in my price range are snub nose revolvers, which experience somewhat high recoil. So, although they may be intuitive enough for anyone to pick up and defend themselves with, even half-asleep, maybe they will kick too much for some users. Please correct me if I am wrong. One alternative I have found, although some may not agree, would be something in .380 like the Glock 42. Can a .380 be said to reliably incapacitate an attacker? My guess is that if loaded with jacketed hollow points, drunk or not, you wont want to find your self standing on the wrong end of one. And to prove my point, I don't even care to test out my theory. Still, I will admit, controversy surrounding .380 Auto as a defense caliber makes that caliber hard for me to have great confidence in.

Thanks in advance for your kindly consideration and advice.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Well thought out post...

For home defense and range fun i'd recommend a 9mm handgun. A full size one at that... the smaller .380's are adequate for CCW (close up type work), but you'll be better suited with a 9mm for home defense. 9mm is quite a bit less expensive than .380 and more plentiful too... as you should shoot often to keep your skill set sharp... shooting well is a perishable skill. 

As a Marine myself, I wasen't as familiar with handguns as other firearms... at first. My first formal instruction was when i was in the Police Academy. I'd highly recommend some professional instruction to become familiar with your new handgun and work on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Handguns require more practice to become proficient than a rifle. Make sure your family knows how to use the handgun if your going allow them access to it... and make sure they practice too. Keep it stored safely when not in use, I recommend a biometric or button combination safe for security and quick access.

A full size handgun will be easier to hone the fundamentals of marksmanship with for the entire family. A larger frame 9mm will also have less recoil than a subcompact model and aid in follow-up shots. Smaller frame guns have more perceived recoil and take more skill to master... smaller does not equal easier in the handgun world. Larger handguns also have higher capacity which will be a benefit in a HD gun. Anyone who has ever been in a gun fight has never wished they had LESS rounds. 

I really think you should bump your price range up a bit to get a wider range of firearms to choose from... you never regret buying a quality handgun. Buy once, cry once. 

Of the ones you've listed, the Sig P250 is probably your best choice imo. Bumping your budget will really be advantageous to you. I'd recommend looking at the following:

S&W M&P
Glock 19
Sig P320
Kahr full size 9mm
Springfield XD
Beretta 92 series
Beretta PX4 Storm

These are just a few of the quality firearms that will function reliably, serve your purpouse and last a lifetime.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Stay away from Rossi and Taurus. Quality control is spotty and they don't hold their value. The most they'll ever be worth will be the exact moment you pay for them. 

I have a SIG P250C in .40 cal. A very nice handgun and no safety to deal with. I think new it's right about $450.00 or so. 

I like S&W revolvers, especially the older ones. You can't beat a model 66 with a 4" or 6" bbl. Nice that you can shoot both .38 Special and .357 mag. in them. 

Anyways, there will be others along shortly to chime in with their opinions.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

To TapnRack: Thank you so much! 

I looked into every model you suggested. I had kind of assumed Springfield was far out of my range, maybe you did too, but it looks like I should be able to catch the XD Service Model in 9mm on sale now and then for somewhere around $425. I also just found a S&W M&P in my range, but it is the Shield 9, which is probably a bit too small. 

I appreciate your help!

And same to you, Paratrooper! I have a lot more confidence in the 250, now.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Sig is a great gun, S+W is also great. For home defense I'd go with a 9mm semi vs a revolver because you can get so much more firepower with the semi. I've got a S+W SD9VE and I really like the gun. The trigger is not the softest but it shoots straight and has been 100% reliable though probably 500 rounds, and you can pack 16+1 into them. I also have a Ruger P95 and really like that one also. Built like a tank, never had a problem with it, 15 or 16 round capacity and I've put probably 1500 rounds through mine without a hiccup. Price wise you can get them new for $365 or so and up. Used ones are also around and I wouldn't be afraid of one either. I don't like Taurus or Rossi either. They are less expensive but built as such, and getting them fixed if there is a problem is sometimes difficult. Taurus won't sell "restricted" parts such as firing pins, barrels, etc so if you are a semi do it yourselfer, or have a favorite gunsmith, he may have trouble getting parts to repair one. They want you to send it back, but that gets into shipping and turnaround time. I've not had great experience with them and probably won't buy another. I've been trying to buy a Sig 9mm for about 6 mos now but I just can't find one I really want that my wallet can handle. For home defense, I wouldn't opt for a 380. Just not enough capacity or firepower but I do carry one on a regular basis because of the way I have to dress for work. I pocket carry one because it fits well and is relatively concealed. The limitations of it are only 6+1 and only 380 firepower. Rather have a 9mm or larger if I had to get into a real battle. The LCP is well built and I have carried one but if you want to go to the range, forget it. Too hard to hang on to and keep sighted. The grip is only a two finger grip, and it's difficult for me with larger hands to keep it steady in my grip with firing off 3 or 4 rounds in succession. Just too small to be the best for home defense, but clearly better than nothing. As mentioned, I have one, and do carry it occasionally, but I seldom take it to the range other than to see that it still cycles correctly because it's not fun to shoot a box of ammo through it. Too much work.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

Thank you!

Yeah. I have read basically everywhere about Taurus/Rossi being not always so great, to put it politely. Still at $250, I found that .380 model hard to exclude. I also thought their revolvers might be safer buys. Glad I checked here first.

9mm appears to be the favorite.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Almost forgot about CZ...

The CZ P-09 or P-07 are great choices under $450 if you have gun stores that carry them. Very accurate and durable... like the others I mentioned earlier.

Any other questions, just ask.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Many consider the .380 a marginal caliber, unless you are very good with a handgun. I have some .380's, but I feel more comfortable with a 9mm and up.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Shiells said:


> . Also, it occurs to me that the best home defense firearm would be one that, for example, a teenage daughter, your wife and/or mother-in-law can use effectively, when you are not around to help protect them, albeit I have yet to see that point come up in discussions elsewhere.


I assume the rest of your family has limited if any handgun experience as well. If you are going to all learn together(i.e handgun defensive course, handgun class(es), learning the safe operation of the firearm, range time, etc...) and are willing to put some time in I'd go with the the 9mm Semi-auto.

If you need something immediate for the entire family, with limited knowledge, a S&W or Ruger revolver(3 inch or longer preferred) in 38 +P . In my experience even the most non handgun familiar can figure out a revolver relatively quick, even under stress. Just my thought.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I agree with some of the others: avoid the 380, it's not much better than a sharp stick in the eye. 
I'd pass on the Rossi too. The Rossi products I've looked at I'd not want to stake my life on.

I've owned a Taurus 85 and 605 (357) and I thought they were pretty good. I'd go with the 357 as 38spl is weaker than 9mm.

I have, among a dozen other short guns, a CZ P07 in 9mm and it's pretty good.

Another sleeper in the market is a Stoeger Cougar (aka Berreta Cougar). It was my carry gun for 2 years. It was 100% reliable and soft shooting. You should be able to find a good one for well under $400 or new for $450.

So I'd go with a 9mm and keep it loaded and ready to go. There is also the advantage that 9mm ammo is damn cheap. 

But none of this means a damn thing if you don't develop a defense plan then PRACTICE & PRACTICE SOME MORE. Decide on a light (many bad guys pull your electrical box) and walk through your house looking for sight lines and blind spots. Decide if you're going to try and clear your house or do a 'fortress bedroom' while the cops come. There's a lot of forethought to be done.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

TAPnRACK said:


> Almost forgot about CZ...
> 
> The CZ P-09 or P-07 are great choices under $450 if you have gun stores that carry them. Very accurate and durable... like the others I mentioned earlier.
> 
> Any other questions, just ask.


In the Head to head reviews, P-09 beats the Sig.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Spike12 said:


> . I'd go with the 357
> 
> .


You think a .357 is a good one to start with, but then again you could work your way up, so perhaps not a bad idea? You start a new shooter with a .357 they may never want to shoot again.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

He could buy a .357 and shoot .38 in it.

About the only time I'd buy a dedicated 5-shot .38 revolver would be for concealment.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

paratrooper said:


> He could buy a .357 and shoot .38 in it.
> 
> About the only time I'd buy a dedicated 5-shot .38 revolver would be for concealment.


Yes, but unless he buys pre-owned, a new S&W or even a Ruger in .357 will probably take him out of his price range. I would not suggest to the OP a Rossi in .357 for example.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

denner said:


> Yes, but unless he buys pre-owned, a new S&W or even a Ruger in .357 will probably take him out of his price range. I would not suggest to the OP a Rossi in .357 for example.


Yeah, I was suggesting a used handgun, but I didn't make that clear enough.


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## Ookami86 (Dec 20, 2014)

Consider an EAA imported CZ CLONE. You can get one for as cheap as $250 and most people think they are worth at least double that. They also have steal frame 45s for around $400. Out of your choices I'd go with the P250 or the SD9VE. The Sig is cool because it's modular, so if you want to switch calibers or size you have that option in a gun you're comfortable. The S&W feels like an awesome gun for the money too, and I haven't really talked to anyone that has been dissatisfied with it.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

What a nice community of people, here! Really classy people.

Thank you all so much!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Shiells said:


> What a nice community of people, here! Really classy people.
> 
> Thank you all so much!


At first, I was somewhat confused in regards to whom you were talking about.

Then it dawned on me. It was us. :smt033


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

By the way, while I was initially thinking about the Sig Sauer P250, right now I'm thinking I will stretch the budget a little bit if need be, as was suggested I probably should, and so I will probably go with an XD, or maybe even an M&P.

I especially want to thank the police officers who gave advice here. There was at least one. I don't think anyone could give better advice on handguns than a cop. But thanks to everyone who replied!


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> At first, I was somewhat confused in regards to whom you were talking about.
> 
> Then it dawned on me. It was us. :smt033


Ha!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Shiells said:


> By the way, while I was initially thinking about the Sig Sauer P250, right now I'm thinking I will stretch the budget a little bit if need be, as was suggested I probably should, and so I will probably go with an XD, or maybe even an M&P.
> 
> I especially want to thank the police officers who gave advice here. There was at least one. I don't think anyone could give better advice on handguns than a cop. But thanks to everyone who replied!


I'm a retired cop. Cops don't always know a lot about firearms. To some, it's just another tool on their equipment belt.

Then again, there are others who do know their stuff about firearms. Many don't even shoot on their own time, but rather, wait until qualifications come around, and then they start hoping and praying they do okay.

Anyways, just felt that I needed to qualify a little bit.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

Thank you very much, sir! 

I thought there would be multiple officers in the mix here, which is why I came to this forum. And I got valuable advice, so I think it worked out.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

We have a good mix of military experience, LE experience, professional instructor experience and knowledgeable recreational/defensive enthusiasts here. Great place to learn and not a lot of attitude or elitism either.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

Absolutely no semi-automatic pistol unless you have received competent training and preferably through an NRA sponsored course.
Which means most likely through a good gun club or a public range. Avoid those dressed like a sniper or a swat team member.
And unless you are willing to commit to at least a range session of practice every 3 months with 25 rounds at minimum no one should ever carry that type of platform, far to many variables to worry about. The average person out here looking for protection with a firearm is not a dedicated gun person and never will be. Most never even grew up around them.

So what does that person get who has taken the basic pistol course, a quality .38 special, and that means either a Ruger or a Smith & Wesson.
The venerable .38 special over the years has put many a bad guy to sleep permanently.

And do not let anyone talk you out of getting a revolver.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

I understand your concern. And I really like revolvers. However, here is the problem: In my price-range, especially if we are talking about good revolvers like S&W and Ruger, the models available are snub nose revolvers, and not only that, but they tend to be "ultra-lite," or "air weight." 

As much as I love snub nose revolvers because they are kind of the old time detective firearm, a snub nose, especially an "air weight," will be, correct me if I'm wrong, a pretty discouraging platform to fire as a beginner. That's even true, I have read, if I get a .357 revolver, which tend to be heavier than plain .38 revolvers, but just shoot .38 rounds from it.

Moreover, although I have little experience with handguns, I am well trained and experienced with semi and even full auto weapons. And I grew up around guns. In fact, I own a hunting rifle and a shotgun.

Lastly, I don't plan on trying to get a CCW permit until about a year from now, if even then. This is more of a home defense decision, for at least the time being. Not that I'm in any immediate danger, but I just would like to have something a bit more ideal for home defense purposes. And...I kinda just want a handgun, because I've never had one.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

You can find some good deals on used revolvers if you take the time, be patient, and do some searching. 

Nice thing about S&W revolvers, is that there's a lot of used ones out there. Check your local pawnshops, as well as gun shops, obviously. Also, keep an eye on the for sale ads in your local newspapers. 

If you have friends that are into guns, let um know what you are looking for. In other words, put out the word.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Shiells unless you carried a Barretta in the USMC then you don't know anything about pistols or revolvers.

All you know anything about is your M-16/4.

And you know the bullet goes bang when you pull any trigger.

You should not be thinking about any pistol or revolver at all.

You should be thinking about going to an indoor gun range and taking a pistol class for novices.

Normally novices get trained first on a 38 special revolver, then they graduate to a 9mm Glock. Glocks are cheapest so these get a lot of circulation.

You'll become a Glock expert eventually. Then that Sig or S&W would look good since they are both Glock clones.

But at that point since you are worried about pricing you might as well just get a Glock.

But NOT NOW. Not until you have taken a few classes first.

The Corps did not give you an M-16/4 without first training you on it.

The same rule applies in the civilian world.

Talking about handguns (pistols and revolvers) does not make you and expert.

Reading the 2nd Amendment also does not make you an expert.

You know exactly squat -- the same as when you stood on the yellow painted footprints on the tarmac on your first day at the MCRD.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

I didn't think people disagreed so strongly about which platforms a beginner should or shouldn't try. The question, where I am concerned, is down to something in .38 Sp,. or else in 9mm. I mean, to me, we're kind of splitting hairs. 

Plenty of experts recommend a 9mm to beginners. In fact, the Marine Corps starts people with 9mm, not .38 sp, albeit they and the US Army used to start people with the .45, and that went on for decades!

But I digress. If you're buying, I'll start with a medium frame .38 Sp..


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

I suggest that you get a S&W Shield in a 9mm or a used S&W 3913 "great gun" I own a bunch of handguns and these two are the ones I keep going back to for EDC.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Shiells said:


> I didn't think people disagreed so strongly about which platforms a beginner should or shouldn't try. The question, where I am concerned, is down to something in .38 Sp,. or else in 9mm. I mean, to me, we're kind of splitting hairs.
> 
> Plenty of experts recommend a 9mm to beginners. In fact, the Marine Corps starts people with 9mm, not .38 sp, albeit they and the US Army used to start people with the .45, and that went on for decades!
> 
> But I digress. If you're buying, I'll start with a medium frame .38 Sp..


Get used to several points of view or opinions on this and many other topics. Some will tell you to start with a .22 pistol, others may suggest a .45ACP.

Some offer opinions with little or no experience... others regurgitate stuff they've read on the internet... some are very knowledgeable and have years of experience.

Everyone has their own idea of what's best for a beginner, some know this from actual instruction experience or simply what worked for them or a friend.

You'll learn to sift though the different opinions and suggestions and decide what's right for you based on your needs, finances and personal experience.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

First, thanks for your suggestion, Shoalin. 

To TAPnRACK: Thanks. Yeah. I don't actually have a problem with the different opinions on this. I did a good bit of reading on the subject before I came to this forum, and I know there is a number of views out there. Frankly, I know where these guys are coming from with the .38 Special revolver suggestion, and again, I don't even dislike revolvers. A lot of this, you're right, just comes down to budget. However, that's just fine, because by my best estimate, and by a lot of people's, 9mm should be a good choice for a starter like me.

What I don't get is how a few people can see all the varying views on this and still not consider answer to the question to be relative to the situation and individual. That's beyond me.

Paratrooper is a bit modest. On average, cops are the best people to talk to about handguns. Not that every police officer is going to agree on the issue, but here I've gotten some professional opinions. That should count for something...even if the fact that I'm a guy who has slept with a rifle in a hole in the ground counts for nothing.

I noticed you're a fellow Michigan, guy, by the way. That's bad ass!


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

If your in or near the SE Michigan area, i'd love to have you take a firearms class if you think you would benefit from it. Our 2015 schedule is up now and we have some classes that would be perfect for the beginner. 

PM me for the company info & web address if interested.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

Will Do! Thanks.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Shiells said:


> I didn't think people disagreed so strongly about which platforms a beginner should or shouldn't try. The question, where I am concerned, is down to something in .38 Sp,. or else in 9mm. I mean, to me, we're kind of splitting hairs.
> 
> Plenty of experts recommend a 9mm to beginners. In fact, the Marine Corps starts people with 9mm, not .38 sp, albeit they and the US Army used to start people with the .45, and that went on for decades!
> 
> But I digress. If you're buying, I'll start with a medium frame .38 Sp..


You're not in the USMC anymore.

There are no staff NCO's or officers supervising you anymore.

Now you are in the real world of civilians again (albeit you are a vet -- you're still human).

In a perfect world, you would start with a 22LR pistol or revolver. There is almost no difference between a 22 pistol or revolver.

Then in a perfect world you would decide whether you like pistols more or revolvers more.

Having decided, in a perfect world you would next graduate to either a 38 special (revolver) or a 9mm pistol (semi-auto).

And for home defense or personal defense that's as far as you need go.

You don't need to graduate further to the 357 or 44 mag or 500 on the revolver side nor to the 40 cal / 10 mm or 45 ACP on the pistol side.

But if you want to jump right into the home defense or self defense fray while jumping the 22LR phase, then going to an indoor range and training under supervision with a 38 special and a 9x19 is what you should do next.

At some point you will need to further decide between Glock-mechanisms versus non-Glock. At this point you have no idea what this means.

All you see now is pretty semi auto pistols which by coincidence happen to be Glock clones.

No reason to gawk at pistols yet. You're not there yet.

You need an instructor -- same as on the day you got off the bus and stood on the yellow painted footprints.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

TapNRack knows his stuff.


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## Philco (Apr 17, 2012)

Thateus said:


> Absolutely no semi-automatic pistol unless you have received competent training and preferably through an NRA sponsored course.
> Which means most likely through a good gun club or a public range. Avoid those dressed like a sniper or a swat team member.
> And unless you are willing to commit to at least a range session of practice every 3 months with 25 rounds at minimum no one should ever carry that type of platform, far to many variables to worry about. The average person out here looking for protection with a firearm is not a dedicated gun person and never will be. Most never even grew up around them.
> 
> ...


What a boatload of bull sh!t. Revolvers are great and I have nothing against them, but to dismiss all pistols outright is rediculous. With few exceptions they are excellent defensive tools.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

To hks95134:

Thanks. I see what you're saying, and I don't completely disagree with you.

However, respectfully, the law gives individuals a bit of leeway in this subject. I feel that I need to, and want to, exercise some of that leeway. 

Moreover, if somebody wanted to pass a gun law saying that everyone who wants to have a handgun has take a certain class first and start with a .38 Special revolver, I doubt that anyone who frequents this website would approve of the idea. So, I don't understand where the insistence comes from.

I have to follow what laws there are regarding this. Beyond that, certain aspects of the decision are my business and prerogative. If anything, I thought we would be in agreement that the freedom we have in this matter is, in general, a good thing, and not something we were trying to diminish.

I'm sure the NRA runs a great class. I'm sure it's a great idea for a lot of people, but it's not the only way for someone to become a proficient and responsible user. Other people have other ways.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Shiells said:


> To hks95134:
> 
> Thanks. I see what you're saying, and I don't completely disagree with you.
> 
> ...


Wow! As Anthony Hopkins said in the movie "Zorro" with Antonio Banderas, I can see that this is going to take a long time.

First, what the law says (Federal or State) has got nothing to do with your health.

If you start playing with Glocks or Glock clones you are likely to shoot yourself and die.

Dangerous toys require careful training -- first -- before you buy them not afterwards.

You need an instructor fast. Does not matter who. Helps though if they are certified by somebody.

We are talking here about you and not about the law. The law is irrelevant.

On a separate note, I suspect that the USMC has gone to your head. It gave you confidence, sure.

The purpose of that confidence training was so that you would gladly and quickly charge a machine gun bunker when ordered to do so.

Right now you are overconfident because you have been trained to be overconfident.

You will likely end up becoming another firearms accident statistic the way you are set up now.

Buying a pistol at this state of the game is like getting into a car behind the wheel without any driver training at all.

It's like buying and riding a motorcycle on the freeway after never having ridden a bicycle in your life.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Philco said:


> What a boatload of bull sh!t. Revolvers are great and I have nothing against them, but to dismiss all pistols outright is rediculous. With few exceptions they are excellent defensive tools.


Glocks and the Glock clones have changed everything. If someone first does not get good training on a Glock or Glock clone, they are very likely to shoot themselves and die.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

Trust me, I get, and I had it right from the start: Guns are dangerous. In fact, that's the whole point of guns. I'm not sure how we missed each other on that.

Okay, but why are you assuming that I don't have an instructor? 

"Require," no. It isn't literally required, not before or after. It is certainly advised, but not required.

Your concern is noted and appreciated.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hks95134 said:


> Glocks and the Glock clones have changed everything. If someone first does not get good training on a Glock or Glock clone, they are very likely to shoot themselves and die.


I didn't get any good training when I bought my Glock 21C.

I'm still alive and kicking.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Shiells said:


> I understand your concern. And I really like revolvers. However, here is the problem: In my price-range, especially if we are talking about good revolvers like S&W and Ruger, the models available are snub nose revolvers, and not only that, but they tend to be "ultra-lite," or "air weight."
> 
> As much as I love snub nose revolvers because they are kind of the old time detective firearm, a snub nose, especially an "air weight," will be, correct me if I'm wrong, a pretty discouraging platform to fire as a beginner. That's even true, I have read, if I get a .357 revolver, which tend to be heavier than plain .38 revolvers, but just shoot .38 rounds from it.
> 
> ...





Shiells said:


> Also, it occurs to me that the best home defense firearm would be one that, for example, a teenage daughter, your wife and/or mother-in-law can use effectively, when you are not around to help protect them, albeit I have yet to see that point come up in discussions elsewhere.


If the teenage daughter, your wife and/or mother in law would need a pistol/revolver for self defense in the home and have not had any experience with a semi-auto or any handgun in general, I believe a revolver is your best bet if you need it immediately for such a purpose.

Not necessarily for you, but the rest of your family, especially if they don't know how to work a semi-auto. You can't limp wrist a revolver, if a malfunction occurs in a semi and you haven't the slightest idea how to rectify the issue it's not good thing in a life and death encounter.

I would prefer my 73 year old mother with her very limited experience could be proficient enough with a 17+1 semi auto for home defense, but that didn't work for her(racking the slide among others) and now she has a S&W 637 that she understands, knows how to load and unload, knows it's operation and has become proficient shooting it. Others mileage may vary.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

To Denner:

Yeah, that's why I actually think that revolvers make great sense, and maybe are ideal if we are talking about a home defense handgun. I think that it would have to not be a snub nosed revolver, though, because those are supposedly tough to master, and for home defense, you want something people are accurate with not just shooting at a target across the room, but maybe something they can be proficient with when trying to address a target down the hallway, across the house. Of course, some people are really good with them, but I doubt my mother-in-law is like that, and to be honest, I don't want to take her to the range with me often enough to make it a reality!

Anyway, does anybody have good experience with websites that sell used handguns? There are a couple that sell police trade-in Model 10s, that are "Guaranteed to work." Beyond those website, I've had a hard time locating inexpensive medium-frame revolvers.

Thanks.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Most gun stores carry used handguns, it's your best bet to actually inspect what your buying... before buying.

Not sure why so many people make operating a semi-auto sound like it takes a Master's Degree to accomplish. Both revolvers and semi-auto's have barrels, triggers and handles... true, they operate differently but are very similar when it comes to safe handling and the fundamentals of shooting. Both require respect and training. 

At some point i'm assuming he'll want a semi-auto... so why not just learn with one. Even after being proficient with a revolver.... from what's being said, it sounds like he'll be back at square one if/when he decides to try a semi-auto anyway... because they are so complicated & dangerous compared to a revolver? Am I missing something?

I've owned many semi-auto handguns before buying my first (and only) revolver.... and know many others that have done the same. Most students taking classes show up with a semi-auto... not a revolver, and they seem to pick up on it real quick.... it's not rocket science.

I do encourage getting professional training to anyone who is newer to handguns... regardless of semi-auto or revolver. 

If someone other than you in your household is expected to have access to this firearm, make sure they can exhibit safe gun handling & proficiency in it BEFORE actually allowing access to it. Sounds like you guys have made it o.k. to this point without a handgun in the house... what's a few months of learning and training with the rest of the expected users? 

Bottom line is either way you go you'll be fine.... as long as you practice safe gun handling and respect the firearm and follow the cardinal rules of safety. Practice and familiarity will grow confidence in your ability. Hundreds of people go with a semi-auto every week in this Country and do just fine. It's not voodoo or some sort of mystery... it's common sense and education.


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## Shiells (Feb 11, 2015)

I guess the way these online gun shops do it, TAPnRack, is they ship the gun to whatever local federally licensed firearms dealer you like, then you go to that dealer and you can inspect the gun. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy; you can have them ship the gun back at no charge to you. In fact, a lot of the online sellers pay all shipping and handling fees associated. Anyway, if you end up approving of the gun and not asking for a refund, then you pay that local dealer a transfer fee and taxes, and along with your gun, the dealer gives you some kind of notice, kind of like an alternative to a purchase permit, that you have to mail to your nearest police station. The notice let's the police know you have such-and-such gun by whatever serial number. That's the process for mail-order handguns in Michigan, as I understand it.


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## Thateus (Feb 12, 2015)

Shiells said:


> I understand your concern. In fact, I own a hunting rifle and a shotgun.
> This is more of a home defense decision.


Hi Shiells,

Sorry I didn't respond to you earlier, I was waiting to see what kind of advice you would be getting from the other members.
And now I feel it's time for me to chime in once again.

Take a seat and pay attention. (this may get l-o-n-g- winded some)

I hope you will come to appreciate that you have in your very possession the best of the best for home defense. Meaning the shot-gun. A handgun is a terrible defensive weapon and in a home environment it is only to get you to that shot-gun. Unfortunately for us permit holders we cannot conceal one out in public ergo the handgun. If you are dead set on buying a handgun because as you say you just want one, then go with at least used quality vs. new junk. And don't let names like Sig Sauer fool you or even Smith & Wesson because 30% of the cost is because of the name. But please stay away from the well known problem guns out there. A life-time warranty means nothing if they are junk to begin with and are constantly in the shop being repaired.

You come off sounding very well rounded which is a good thing, and means you got a good level head on your shoulders. You could have easily just walked away from this discussion but you haven't because you really want to learn and understand which gets an A+ in my book.
This country could use around 10 million more like you in your age bracket. Perhaps even in mine. :smt001

If in the future if you ever do decide to go for a permit to carry, which as it stands today 2 out of 3 have no real need to, but they have spent far to much time on the internet and YouTube being forced fend the paranoia and the b.s.. 
And at least 1 in 3 are as dangerous with a gun as the criminals are. But we won't get to deep into that. Only to say if you do go that route and it is with a semi-automatic platform try to stay away from the prevailing idea of 'spray & pray' which is why the younger generations get fooled into thinking mega round count means anything. It does, but not for 99.9% of we civilians in the capacity we will use or even need it. We are not looking to get into a fire fight nor to kill someone, merely 'stop the threat'.

Above all else you must feel confident in the platform you carry and in your ability to utilize it AND at what confidence level.
I personally will never carry a semi-automatic firearm as my main go to as a bug (back-up) perhaps. And I can operate one. 
Everyone's environmental situation varies, so that in rural America one may be able to clear a jam in a semi-automatic in 1.5 seconds or less, if I can't in my environment I'm dead. And that is my true weakness in using that platform and my greatest fear.

In real life practice scenarios often times go right out the window, I say this because I don't want you to get taken in by the wanna-be juggle warfare guerrillas out there. Stick with basic fundamentals, and a good many of those can be practiced in the comfort of your own home. The number one aspect after the basics is your confidence level. Throw all the other trash of so called expertize out there in the garbage.

Good luck and stay safe.
(I'm done on this thread)


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Thateus' points about the shotgun and about the pistol/revolver debate are well made.

A shotgun is indeed the best home defense weapon.

And since pistols (semi auto handguns) sometimes jam, whereas revolvers rarely do, a revolver gives you 99.99% certainty of a shot, whereas with a pistol it may only be 98% -- at least 1 round per box of ammo is going to jam on you -- even more with a Glock or Glock clone pistol like the ones you have indicated an interest in.

And if you are good with a long gun, then you will probably also be good with a revolver. No really special training required.

But like I said, go for the basic training at an indoor gun range which all the novices take, and get familiar with all handguns, before you jump to a pistol (semi auto handgun) and especially to a Glock or Glock clone. Because the Glocks and Glock clones have special problems of their own -- functioning, jamming and safety.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> I didn't get any good training when I bought my Glock 21C.
> 
> I'm still alive and kicking.


Lucky boy. Very lucky boy.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hks95134 said:


> Thateus' points about the shotgun and about the pistol/revolver debate are well made.
> 
> A shotgun is indeed the best home defense weapon.
> 
> ...


That's a pretty broad statement to be making. :buttkick:


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hks95134 said:


> Lucky boy. Very lucky boy.


Luck had nothing to do with it.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> Luck had nothing to do with it.


If you are really really good with pistols, and you can strip one and put it back together in the dark, you can then probably figure out how the Glocks and Glock clones work, their glitches and anomalies, and you would probably live to fight another day (the Army theme).

It could go either way however. That is called luck.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> That's a pretty broad statement to be making. :buttkick:


The only bad thing about a shotgun is that it won't fit under your pillow, like a pistol will.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

If you awake and are aware of someone breaking into your home, and if you are of the mindset that you are not going to leave your bedroom, then yes, a long gun might suffice. 

But, if you intend to leave your bedroom and "clear" your house, then a long gun can be a liability. Especially if you have narrow hallways or areas in your house that might be confining when it comes to maneuvering. 

And, if you were to make contact with the intruder, a long gun will provide him (or her) with plenty of barrel to grab on to. 

Myself, I want to keep my left hand empty and available to push / hit against another if needed. A long gun requires two hands to properly function, and if taken from you, makes a great club to get beat up with. 

In tight confines, it's best to have a handgun that you can keep close to your torso, and one hand empty to work doorknobs, push open doors, and turn on lights and such. 

Everyone has a preference, depending upon their ability, knowledge and skill level.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Shiells said:


> What a nice community of people, here! Really classy people.
> 
> Thank you all so much!


Don't get yourself killed. Glocks and Glock clones can get you killed.

Has nothing to do with the community.

Back in the day when the 1911A1 was the state of the art and everyone was cloning it, you could figure everything out on your own.

Not true anymore, as was indicated already by another.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> If you awake and are aware of someone breaking into your home, and if you are of the mindset that you are not going to leave your bedroom, then yes, a long gun might suffice.
> 
> But, if you intend to leave your bedroom and "clear" your house, then a long gun can be a liability. Especially if you have narrow hallways or areas in your house that might be confining when it comes to maneuvering.
> 
> ...


Those are all good issues.

I would clear with my 45ACP at my side, holstered, and my 5.56x45 in my hands. I can push against their face with the muzzle of the carbine.

But now you are speaking of a very aggressive response to a violation of your privacy and security, as well as that of your family.

But even so, if I were to buy a Glock or a Glock clone, I would still get instruction on it from somebody who was more familiar with it than I am.

That's called "guided discovery" in teaching theory. It beats the heck out of "trial and error."

Trial and error can get you killed with dangerous toys.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

I assume when you say "Glock or Glock clone" you are referring to "striker fired" handguns.

Glock did not invent them, nor was it the first polymer frame pistol... and i'd hardly refer to every other striker fired handgun as a "Glock Clone"... they are what they are, striker fired pistols. 

Guys new to handguns may not understand what your talking about. Some firearms have direct clones... like when Taurus took over the Beretta plant and acquired actual design plans for the 92 series. 

All guns can get you killed... not just striker fired ones. ALL firearms must be respected and handled in a safe manner.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

Yup all guns can get you killed, but the Glocks and their striker fired clones can do it faster, especially someone who has never touched one nor had it demonstrated to them before and thinks they already know everything and are invincible because they have gone through the training and brainwashing for invincibility.

It's too bad the DOD does not facilitate a de-programming course for vets. USMC would need it the most. Army Rangers in a close second place. Etc.

Probably don't need to worry about the USAF or USCG at all though.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

I had to go with the SD9. I have one of the older model SW40VE's, and have probably around 2,000 trouble free rounds through that pistol. As the name denotes, it is in .40 S&W, and is a great shooter. Mine holds 14 in the magazines, so round count is not a problem.

The newer SD series is just as reliable, and is a good investment for a gun that will run you about 369$ OTD. Do you live in a state that has the magazine restrictions? You had made a comment about the 10 round gun...just curious.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

hks95134 said:


> Those are all good issues.
> 
> I would clear with my 45ACP at my side, holstered, and my 5.56x45 in my hands. I can push against their face with the muzzle of the carbine.
> 
> ...


I always assume the worst and am prepared for it.

If it turns out to be less than that.......I am happy.

BTW.....I'm not getting your anti-Glock rant. *ANY* firearm, not treated with respect and experience, can get you injured or killed.


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## hks95134 (Feb 13, 2015)

paratrooper said:


> I always assume the worst and am prepared for it.
> 
> If it turns out to be less than that.......I am happy.
> 
> BTW.....I'm not getting your anti-Glock rant. *ANY* firearm, not treated with respect and experience, can get you injured or killed.


The Glocks and their clones are very different. They're not like the 1911A1's which are intuitive and have reliable safeties.

I get that Glocks are cheap and popular.

I get that the striker firing mechanism lets you fire quickly.

But this is a type of pistol that really needs some coaching first.

And it is far from my ideal. Same with the clones.


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## Sierra_Hunter (Feb 17, 2015)

I would personally look at a Ruger SR9. The Ruger E9 is basically the same, but does not have adjustable sights and is a little bit cheaper. They also have a compact version of the SR9, which has a shorter barrel, and grip frame, but has an adaptor to make the grip longer and use full size magazines. And they make one that is CA legal.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

I love the blanket statements of "fact", especially regarding how owning a Glock will lead you to shoot yourself.

Folks come to a forum to get decent advice and sadly many will express their opinions as facts - which they are not. With a smallish budget I would recommend you look at the used market as you can get much more bang for your buck. What's important is to get a quality pistol from a quality manufacturer. I own a pretty broad collection ranging from 1911s to Sigs to Glocks (have yet to shoot myself) and all do the intended job. 

The above poster recommended a Ruger SR9 and it is indeed a very good gun that can often be found on the used market for a nice price. I have had my SR9c for years and it has been 100% reliable...


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## Sierra_Hunter (Feb 17, 2015)

NGIB said:


> I love the blanket statements of "fact", especially regarding how owning a Glock will lead you to shoot yourself.
> 
> Folks come to a forum to get decent advice and sadly many will express their opinions as facts - which they are not. With a smallish budget I would recommend you look at the used market as you can get much more bang for your buck. What's important is to get a quality pistol from a quality manufacturer. I own a pretty broad collection ranging from 1911s to Sigs to Glocks (have yet to shoot myself) and all do the intended job.
> 
> The above poster recommended a Ruger SR9 and it is indeed a very good gun that can often be found on the used market for a nice price. I have had my SR9c for years and it has been 100% reliable...


You can hurt yourself with any gun. It's all a matter of safety. I grew up in a family very involved with guns and spent my entire childhood packing around a firearm from about the time I could walk. I got carried away one day, got careless, and shot myself in the foot with the last thing a person would expect....a lever action rifle. Any gun is safe if it is handled correctly same as any is dangerous if handled wrong.


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## Slowalkintexan (Feb 6, 2007)

Thateus said:


> Absolutely no semi-automatic pistol unless you have received competent training and preferably through an NRA sponsored course.
> Which means most likely through a good gun club or a public range. Avoid those dressed like a sniper or a swat team member.
> And unless you are willing to commit to at least a range session of practice every 3 months with 25 rounds at minimum no one should ever carry that type of platform, far to many variables to worry about. The average person out here looking for protection with a firearm is not a dedicated gun person and never will be. Most never even grew up around them.
> 
> ...


 Thateus, I certainly agree with you about revolvers. My problem with semi's is they are not all the same, as far as where the safety is, the mag release, which way to push them.. Too much chance for error, in a high stress situation...With a revolver, it's pretty simple. Pull trigger, gun goes 'bang'. Been carrying a revolver for over 30 years, never had one fail me yet.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Sierra_Hunter said:


> You can hurt yourself with any gun. It's all a matter of safety. I grew up in a family very involved with guns and spent my entire childhood packing around a firearm from about the time I could walk. I got carried away one day, got careless, and shot myself in the foot with the last thing a person would expect....a lever action rifle. Any gun is safe if it is handled correctly same as any is dangerous if handled wrong.


You were packing a firearm since you could walk? :smt104

My parents made me wait until I could talk. :smt086


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## Sierra_Hunter (Feb 17, 2015)

It's been a long time lol. This photo was taken when I was about a year and a half old.


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## sr922 (Dec 10, 2014)

I bought the sd9ve as my first handgun, for self defense, but have since bought a Glock 22, now have modified my sd9ve (spring kit and trigger itself) and become just as efficient shooting the Glock as I am the 9. Long story short; my modded 9 is now my range gun and the stock Glock is my home defense gun. Better to have an un-modded HD/SD, plus 9mm ammo is cheaper to shoot.

Not to say I don't shoot my glock, I just try to limit my round count to 50/session, where I shoot about 75 rounds of 9mm/session.


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm going to recommend that you look at a Ruger lc9-s (9mm). They are small enough for CCW but can more than do the job for home defense. A full size pistol like an M&P would be better but, too big for CCW and a .380 conceal nicely but are too small to be fun to shoot and the ammo is expensive and can be hard to find. The lc9-s is a pretty good compromise. (jmho)


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

If you're still thinking about this after all these posts, here's one piece of advice I've learned which wasn't obvious from the beginning. Whatever you buy, get the best quality gun you can afford. I've bought several handguns from cheap to expensive. The cheap ones are always just that, cheap and usually unreliable. For the most part to me, cheap guns are nothing but range toys and not to be trusted in a self defense situation. Yeah, I'd throw one in the glove compartment for a backup but it wouldn't be my go to weapon, only something that was a last resort. Better than nothing, but sometimes not much. Get the best quality gun you can afford to buy. You will never regret it because it will serve you well for years.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Shields,

Hopefully you can distill the good advice being offered. I have been asked the same question by many as they know me as a pistol owner.

So I ask them 2 questions first: What do you want it for? AND Are you prepared to use it?

They are basic questions and help look at the midset of the user. It is not an easy thing for most to aim and hit your target with a handgun. It takes training and practice.
Then should the actual event occur - God forbid - are you prepared to use and go through all the consequences of use?

For Home defense I have regularly advocated 20 gauge slug gun. Just the racking sound can start an intruder moving away. For the lighter frames, a 20 is not too bad but .410 may be better.
The guns are basic, low cost, and very effective.

That said, I take it you have chosen a pistol for the application of defense.
You want low cost and versatility.

Automatics have the advantage of ease of loading/unloading, various safety features, and high capacity. Anything in 9mm would fit the bill. 
When it comes to low cost quality, most Ruger firearms will do but you can get many higher end pistols used and save some $$$.

Autos also have the advantage of being placed accessible[unloaded] with a magazine nearby. This is a safety option that is immeasurable if you have curious kids.
You could chose other cartridges but if this is a once an done purchase, the 9mm would be my recommendation. 
If you can, review your budget and allow for a .22 auto as the low cost practice can pay for itself in ammo savings.

Again practice. We all need it and even the best get rusty.

If the cost of a good 9mm is pushing you to a wheel gun and you want versatility a GP100 in .357 is an excellent choice. Good gun, low price - used,
and you can use lower power .38 special for ladies or go to .38+p for more umph, or full blown .357. 
Unless you rely on speed loaders, you may be tempted to keep the gun loaded. 
Fine if you remember the cardinal rule of gun safety - *Treat every gun as if its loaded*.

Again training and practice will make every difference between having a safe usable tool, or an accident that could cost you your life or someone very dear to you.

Hopefully you find this post helpful in your decision, and please consider all the good advice offered in this thread.


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## dakota1911 (Jun 9, 2015)

Do watch sales. Around here you have to be there the first day and stand in line when they open but they often have great deals. Trouble is they often only have 10 of some gun which is why the first day and stand in line when they open.


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## casurvivor (Jan 23, 2015)

from your list Sig P250 Subcompact in 9mm, definitively not the Taurus.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Greybeard said:


> I'm going to recommend that you look at a Ruger lc9-s (9mm). They are small enough for CCW but can more than do the job for home defense. A full size pistol like an M&P would be better but, too big for CCW and a .380 conceal nicely but are too small to be fun to shoot and the ammo is expensive and can be hard to find. The lc9-s is a pretty good compromise. (jmho)


I have been looking at the reviews on the LC9S and the LC9S Pro and one of the two is going into my rotation for EDC. My G19 is great for CC in cool weather, but is a bit broad in the shoulders for shorts and a tee shirt. Check it out if you haven't already made up your mind. By the way, you can pick one up for $334.00 online with free shipping.

GW


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## sdh91 (Dec 12, 2015)

I shot the SD9VE at a gun range today. The Pistol was part of the range rental inventory so I am sure it has had a fair amount of use. Personally, I liked the pull of the trigger. It was not too light or too hard. You definitely need to intentionally pull the trigger to cause it to fire. I am considering an SD40VE which is the same gun except for the chambering. It is the same frame, same trigger, same sights, etc. I am glad that I was able to spend a few dollars on a rental to determine if it was the gun for me. I have shot other brands in the past so I have something to compare to. At the end of the day, the right pistol is what feels good in your hand and fits your budget.


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

imho I think you want a good revolver--my ruger gp 100 fits that mold--no magazines, no jamming . only 6 rounds but with practice you can get those moon clips or speedloaders to work almost as fast as a semi auto with magazines. besides if you get a .357 ruger you can also shoot .38 spec ammo. like having 2 guns not 1

plenty of god new and used guns available. try renting a handful--several times each. eliminate those that you do not like. you will find the right gun for your needs

best of luck and thanks for your service


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## repair (Jun 30, 2013)

I have a Ruger SR9c great gun easy to fire not bad on the recoil thats my house gun my carry is S&W 9mm Shield another good gun both not expensive at all, each one was under $500.


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## trgams (Feb 23, 2016)

I've got both the XD9 full size and the XDs 3.3" .45...The XD9 is a fantastic gun...shoots really straight, very reliable and fun to shoot.(Keep a spare striker retainer pin around just in case) the XDs .45 I just purchased for concealed carry, but the reviews and reports I have heard are all very positive...Springfield Armory has always had a great reputation, and the fit and finish of their guns can't be beat...I actually like them better than the Glocks...good luck.


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