# Islam



## Baldy

Now somebody explain to me how this can be called the religion of peace after veiwing this. http://fitna.net/

Wake up America.:smt1099


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## TOF

You ask the impossible Baldy.

You and I are awake, I just hope enough others are.

:smt1099


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## john doe.

Amazing, simply amazing.


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## dourdave

There are times I am glad I am old and nearing the end of life. I don't think I have another fight in me. 

For my children's children, I do hope that others have the spirit to win the strugle.


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## js

Baldy said:


> Now somebody explain to me how this can be called the religion of peace after veiwing this. http://fitna.net/
> 
> Wake up America.:smt1099


It's been replaced... also due to death threats LiveLeak has removed the movie link as well.

Freedom of speech has no meaning or value in the Islamic world...


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## submoa

Translation: Acceptable collateral damage.

Incredible.


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## Baldy

I thought it would get the axe. Lasted about 20hrs is all.


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## dourdave

The movie was very disturbing, but it's removal from view is damn scary. 

Maybe one more fight


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## Baldy

Everybody thinks by giving in to these idiots they will go away. Some say lets sit down and talk to them. How do you talk to all these different sects. They have a common goal and that is to kill everybody who doesn't beleive like them. We sure can't keep going on like we are.
Wake up America! :smt1099


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## themayer78

Baldy said:


> They have a common goal and that is to kill everybody who doesn't beleive like them.


The familiarity of this truth is chilling. I did not appreciate the importance of world history as a child, or the truth in the statement "When history is forgotten we are doomed to repeat it". Should we have given Hitler and his army any concessions because they had a "belief" and all belief systems must be respected equally? Hell NO.

My gut wants to ask "Why are we pussyfooting around this world issue? Why don't we aggressively pursue and stop "these people" like we (we being the GG's of the world) did the Germans when we learned the holocaust was happening". I have to believe it's just easier said than done or it would be done by now. I hate to say it but it really is true... Can't we all just get along? Why not? And if not then can't we all just agree to disagree and not go killing people who disagree with us? WTF is this world coming to? We have come so far as a species, where is the breakdown? Why do people want to kill people who believe something else about what happens after you die? And just what EXACTLY are we threatening by not being Muslim? Why do they CARE??? And how on earth can they convince themselves that their GOD thinks it's OK and will reward them for taking the lives of those who believe something else.


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## dourdave

Ben,

Their "GOD" is the same one the Western World claims. In fact, that is the root of the problem.


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## themayer78

I wish I were more knowledgeable about so many things. What would all of these violent criminals against humanity have to say if we rounded them all up and said "Guys, your beliefs are different than ours and our God says we have to kill you now. You all get over here so we can cut your heads off and celebrate because we are making God happy."

I don't understand what it is in some people that motivate them to hurt other people. I am grateful that my parents raised me to respect and care for my fellow human beings, but I don't think that's the only reason I am a decent human being. I just don't get it. My wife had crimes perpetrated against her as a child that were known but ignored by her family. I don't understand radical Islam, and I don't understand how people can just not care about other people or what happens to them, ESPECIALLY FAMILY!?!

I'm tired, I need to stop for now...


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## cvillechopper

It always amazes me how ignorant some people can be. You associate a few persons views on a religion with that of the entire group. It's no different than saying Americans are war-mongering idiots based on our current regime. Take the time to actually understand what is being said instead of twisting it to your liking. The article even says that originally these words had very different meanings within the religion. It was a few individuals that have created this warped interpretation. 

Unfortunately, almost all religion is based on the idea that you should follow and ask no questions. Look how many people Christianity has killed over the years in defense of the "true belief". Anyone that claims their religion is absolutely the ONLY one is just plain ignorant. At least accept that others from different cultures, who believe in a different religion, still deserve the same respect that you would grant them if they drank the same Koolaid as you do. Otherwise you're no different than those that you rant against.


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## john doe.

cvillechopper said:


> It always amazes me how ignorant some people can be. You associate a few persons views on a religion with that of the entire group. It's no different than saying Americans are war-mongering idiots based on our current regime. Take the time to actually understand what is being said instead of twisting it to your liking. The article even says that originally these words had very different meanings within the religion. It was a few individuals that have created this warped interpretation.
> 
> Unfortunately, almost all religion is based on the idea that you should follow and ask no questions. Look how many people Christianity has killed over the years in defense of the "true belief". Anyone that claims their religion is absolutely the ONLY one is just plain ignorant. At least accept that others from different cultures, who believe in a different religion, still deserve the same respect that you would grant them if they drank the same Koolaid as you do. Otherwise you're no different than those that you rant against.


Well, then call me ignorant.

As a born-again Christian I know without a doubt, that Christianity is the only true religion. I will not accept any other religion. I know many here believe other things or do not believe at all. Hey, that's up to whom ever and I'm not here to judge because my judgment has no impact.

I will not fall into the trap of accepting Islam. To accept another religion is to deny mine and I certainly will not deny Christ.

I'll force myself to stop here before this is closed.


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## themayer78

cvillechopper said:


> It always amazes me how ignorant some people can be. You associate a few persons views on a religion with that of the entire group. It's no different than saying Americans are war-mongering idiots based on our current regime. Take the time to actually understand what is being said instead of twisting it to your liking. The article even says that originally these words had very different meanings within the religion. It was a few individuals that have created this warped interpretation.
> 
> Unfortunately, almost all religion is based on the idea that you should follow and ask no questions. Look how many people Christianity has killed over the years in defense of the "true belief". Anyone that claims their religion is absolutely the ONLY one is just plain ignorant. At least accept that others from different cultures, who believe in a different religion, still deserve the same respect that you would grant them if they drank the same Koolaid as you do. Otherwise you're no different than those that you rant against.


I never made any generalized statements about an entire group. I am only referring to the ones who see fit to kill those who believe different. I don't know how many people have been killed by what religion but none are more justified than any other. I am NOT ignorant and I do warmly and graciously accept people from other cultures and religions. I am not a Christian, or Mormon, or Muslim, or Jewish or any other. I have a hard time believing that any one religion is the right one and all those who believe different are damned to hell, but I certainly don't think anyone is ignorant for believing their God is the One True God. It's a belief which is every human beings right to have. Personally I believe the whole concept of religion is a social device that gives people a reason to live and for the most part a reason to be moral and civil to one another, was born from this need and helps explain some things we just don't understand. The only ones who I think are ignorant are those who think murder in the name of their God is justifiable. Oh yeah, and those who half-read posts and start calling people ignorant because they misread between the lines.

Reread my post and take note that I refer to "violent criminals", NOT any particular group, religious or otherwise, donkey.


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## Baldy

There's about three U-tube video's at this link and one is Fitna in two parts. Go there a and view them and then come back and we'll talke about the religion of peace.:smt076


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## Steve M1911A1

tnoisaw said:


> ...As a born-again Christian I know without a doubt, that Christianity is the only true religion...


OK, that's your religion. Fine.
But would you require me to convert to your religion, and kill me if I refuse?
That's Islam's general point of view.
Of course, it also was Christianity's point of view from around 900 AD through about 1600 AD, and Judaism's point of view from long before we learned to count centuries of time until almost 50 BC.
Judaism and Christianity learned, in time, that the "convert or die" ethic doesn't accomplish the desired end. Islam will eventually learn this as well.
After all, Islam came into being about 600 years after Christianity, so the Moslem world still has a lot to learn.
Kill the bad ones, educate the good ones, and give them a little time to catch up.


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## PanaDP

tnoisaw said:


> Well, then call me ignorant.
> 
> As a born-again Christian I know without a doubt, that Christianity is the only true religion. I will not accept any other religion. I know many here believe other things or do not believe at all. Hey, that's up to whom ever and I'm not here to judge because my judgment has no impact.
> 
> I will not fall into the trap of accepting Islam. To accept another religion is to deny mine and I certainly will not deny Christ.
> 
> I'll force myself to stop here before this is closed.


Nazis were Christians. The spanish were Christians when they tortured thousands during the inquisition.

Based on the broad generalization in this thread, am I to assume you torture people and kill Jews and homosexuals?


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## Steve M1911A1

PanaDP said:


> Nazis were Christians. The spanish were Christians when they tortured thousands during the inquisition...


I don't think that I could characterize Nazi Party functionaries as "Christians." Merely going to church does not a Christian make (_e.g._, Pastor Jeremiah Wright).
The Spanish of the Inquisition were indeed fervid Catholics, and the Inquisition fits within the dates I postulated (900-1600 AD) for the Christian "join or die" movement.
The fact that Tony characterizes himself as a Christian does not make him a bigot, a neo-Nazi, or an incipient Inquisitor. He has not said that we are required to agree with his faith, or that we are required to practice it.

The point I've been trying to make is that religions, like the people who practice them (Tony, for example) change and "grow up."
Other religions have gone through the "join or die" phase too, so we must show some understanding, exercise some control, and help guide Islam in the civilizing direction.


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## TOF

Here is a fresh link to the video for any that have not had the opportunity to see the enemy.

http://www.viddler.com:80/bran8464/videos/9/

:smt1099


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## cvillechopper

themayer78 said:


> I never made any generalized statements about an entire group. I am only referring to the ones who see fit to kill those who believe different. I don't know how many people have been killed by what religion but none are more justified than any other. I am NOT ignorant and I do warmly and graciously accept people from other cultures and religions. I am not a Christian, or Mormon, or Muslim, or Jewish or any other. I have a hard time believing that any one religion is the right one and all those who believe different are damned to hell, but I certainly don't think anyone is ignorant for believing their God is the One True God. It's a belief which is every human beings right to have. Personally I believe the whole concept of religion is a social device that gives people a reason to live and for the most part a reason to be moral and civil to one another, was born from this need and helps explain some things we just don't understand. The only ones who I think are ignorant are those who think murder in the name of their God is justifiable. Oh yeah, and those who half-read posts and start calling people ignorant because they misread between the lines.
> 
> Reread my post and take note that I refer to "violent criminals", NOT any particular group, religious or otherwise, donkey.


Funny thing is I wasn't referring to you in my post. Yours was the first one on here that wasn't pointing toward all of Islam as being the evil. Yet you wanted to take my words as an attack...


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## themayer78

DOH! Sorry man, I didn't WANT to take it as an attack It just followed my post and I thought it was pointed at me.

God Bless America (All of Them)


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## Anarius

themayer78 said:


> MWhy don't we aggressively pursue and stop "these people" like we (we being the GG's of the world) did the Germans when we learned the holocaust was happening".


 Um, good point but we didn't know about the holocaust going into WWII.

I agree that Islam is a cancer on the world...there is no such thing as a 'moderate muslim'. Try this, go to a Mosque (well, out side one, they will kill you if you see their bomb factory) and ask the first person entering, "Are you a Muslim?", "Are a moderate muslim?", "How can you be a muslim, and a so-called moderate, if the koran says you have a duty to kill all non-muslims?".

We need to stamp out Islam like we stamped out small pox. They are both wasting disease with high mortality rates.


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## js

cvillechopper said:


> It always amazes me how ignorant some people can be. You associate a *few persons views on a religion* with that of the entire group.


I always love that argument... :anim_lol:

I guess it depends on your definition of what " a few" means.

Let's review...

definition of the word "Few" according to Websters =



> Main Entry: 3few Function:_noun, plural in construction_ Date:before 12th century 1 *:* a small number of units or individuals <a _few_ of them> 2 *:* a special limited number <the discriminating _f_


Now... There are over 1,000,000,000 Muslims world wide... That's One Billion.

It is estimated that over 1% are "radical/extremist", 1% of 1,000,000,000 equals 1,000,000.

So let's just put this in easy to understand terms...

There are over 1,000,000 muslims that want to kill me and you. That's over One Million!!!!

That my friend is a standing army.

Let's review even more and see what just 19 muslims can do...


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## PanaDP

js said:


> I always love that argument... :anim_lol:
> 
> I guess it depends on your definition of what " a few" means.
> 
> Let's review...
> 
> definition of the word "Few" according to Websters =
> 
> Now... There are over 1,000,000,000 Muslims world wide... That's One Billion.
> 
> It is estimated that over 1% are "radical/extremist", 1% of 1,000,000,000 equals 1,000,000.
> 
> So let's just put this in easy to understand terms...
> 
> There are over 1,000,000 muslims that want to kill me and you. That's over One Million!!!!
> 
> That my friend is a standing army.
> 
> Let's review even more and see what just 19 muslims can do...


That seems reasonable, so I'll go with your numbers. The question is this: Are the actions and beliefs of those million enough to condemn a billion people?


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## js

PanaDP said:


> That seems reasonable, so I'll go with your numbers. The question is this: Are the actions and beliefs of those million enough to condemn a billion people?


Should we condemn the moderates...?

Only if they stand by and do nothing. :buttkick:


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## dourdave

TOF,

The "fresh link" worked at 5:15 AM. At 5:30, the movie was removed. 

Who controls the internet? Who controls information ?


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## js

dourdave said:


> TOF,
> 
> The "fresh link" worked at 5:15 AM. At 5:30, the movie was removed.
> 
> Who controls the internet? Who controls information ?


http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020486.php


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## dourdave

Thanks, JS


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## cvillechopper

Anarius said:


> Um, good point but we didn't know about the holocaust going into WWII.
> 
> I agree that Islam is a cancer on the world...there is no such thing as a 'moderate muslim'. Try this, go to a Mosque (well, out side one, they will kill you if you see their bomb factory) and ask the first person entering, "Are you a Muslim?", "Are a moderate muslim?", "How can you be a muslim, and a so-called moderate, if the koran says you have a duty to kill all non-muslims?".
> 
> We need to stamp out Islam like we stamped out small pox. They are both wasting disease with high mortality rates.


Posts like this just plain make me sad for my children's generation. With close-mindedness like this the human race is destined to fail more quickly than I thought.


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## cvillechopper

js said:


> I always love that argument... :anim_lol:
> 
> I guess it depends on your definition of what " a few" means.
> 
> Let's review...
> 
> definition of the word "Few" according to Websters =
> 
> Now... There are over 1,000,000,000 Muslims world wide... That's One Billion.
> 
> It is estimated that over 1% are "radical/extremist", 1% of 1,000,000,000 equals 1,000,000.
> 
> So let's just put this in easy to understand terms...
> 
> There are over 1,000,000 muslims that want to kill me and you. That's over One Million!!!!
> 
> That my friend is a standing army.
> 
> Let's review even more and see what just 19 muslims can do...


1 million against the number of people on the Earth is very few. Argue as you wish but you're talking about the entire group based on actions of less than 1%.


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## js

cvillechopper said:


> 1 million against the number of people on the Earth is very few. Argue as you wish but you're talking about the entire group based on actions of less than 1%.


not arguing anything... just stating facts.

I'm still waiting for the other 99% of muslims to actually do something about their internal "radical" problem.

Personally, I'm not seeing to much of that right now.... as a matter of another fact, I'm seeing...and hearing the opposite from "moderate" muslims.

www.jihadwatch.org or http://www.memritv.org/


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## js

cvillechopper said:


> the human race is destined to fail more quickly than I thought.


ever pay close attention to history...? What is happening today is no different from 5,000+ years ago. The only difference is there are more of us sharing the planet.


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## js

This guy sums it up... I couldn't have said it better myself.

http://www.dotsub.com/films/moredemands/index.php?autostart=true&language_setting=en_1618

or Click Here if the link doesn't work...


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## Baldy

He sure said it all for me.:smt038


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## john doe.

That was fantastic!!!


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## DevilsJohnson

It really does not matter what the theology in question might be. Killing people simply because you view them as an enemy of your theology is nothing short of insane. It was wrong for the crusaders, it is wrong for these people.

More people on this planet have been killed in the name of God (however one decides to view God) than all other possible reasons to take a life combined. This is a well known truth. But it does not make it right. If Christians were out doing these things today they would *all* be vilified in the media and in the hearts of anyone that would be seen as a possible target. The bottom line is that is what is going to happen to a religion that has in it's texts a reason for killing and a back door for making sure you can still get to that's religions good place. 
to say that one is ignorant for believing their faith is the one true faith is more ignorant then the person they are pointing at. It's a matter of *FAITH* The term faith pretty much puts the faithful in a spot that it has to be. Or the faith would not be true. Pretty stupid to say to a faithful person that they are stupid for being faithful.

also, In the eyes of these people over in the mid east shooting at our young people do think that all Americans are war mongering evil people. They broadcast all the time and ask all of their faithful to kill any and all American Infidels. Are they stupid for being faithful? No. They are stupid for listening to people wanting to kill people in the name of their God. as stupid as any other group of people wanting to do the same. sure, All Muslims are not wanting to kill every American..But a lot are. And they are willing to kill their own to see their goal is made. and they are not good people. And they wonder why there are war mongering Americans looking to kill them off:smt1099


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## john doe.

cvillechopper said:


> Posts like this just plain make me sad for my children's generation. With close-mindedness like this the human race is destined to fail more quickly than I thought.


It's the politically correct, open minded people that have got us into this mess by accepting the garbage that Islam puts out and allowing them to dictate what will be done by the majority at the will of a minority. Umm, I've heard this before. Oh ya, Federalist Paper No: 10.

Political correctness is the cancer to society as well as Islam. Why defend a religion who's goal is to murder you if you don't commit to their religion? Islam is the ONLY religion I know of that does this. Though many so called Christian leaders are sometimes a little out there I don't hear them calling for a holy jihad in the name of Jesus. I also do not hear of Christians or people of other religions, murdering people in the name of their religion. I haven't heard that from Buddhists or Mormons or whom ever. It's only Muslims.

If a child molester befriended my daughter I would not be ok with that because I should be nice to him because it's the politically correct thing to do. Hell no! I'd watch him like a hawk and tell him to get the hell away from my child if he came close. And yes, putting a child molester in the same category as a Muslim was not a mistake. At least child molesters are not murdering thousands of people for their cause.


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## DevilsJohnson

Oh..Liked the Brit vid..heh..well said:smt023


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## submoa

I'm gonna have to side with cvillechopper on this one...



js said:


> It is estimated that over 1% are "radical/extremist"


With that logic, should we judge all catholics by the actions of the IRA and quotes taken from some Irish Priests?

What scares me the most is these kind of generalizations were used to justify internment of americans of Japanese ancestry during WWII. Some of whom went on to fight in WWII for the US in Nisei units in Europe.

19 terrorists were responsible for the World Trade Center bombing. The fact that they shared the muslim faith is as relevant as the fact that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were ********. Go after the people and organization that supports crime, be it Al Quaida, Taliban, Saudi Royal Family, Crips, Bloods, Mafia, etc.

Believe what you want, freedom of religion, freedom of speech are good things. The moment you hurt others so you can feel better about yourself, you become the bad guy and should be put down. The excuse for the bad behavior is completely irrelevant.



js said:


> I'm still waiting for the other 99% of muslims to actually do something about their internal "radical" problem.


How about an example of Pro-US muslims?

Kurds are muslim. Kurdish Peshmurga militia fought alongside coalition forces againt Saddam in Gulf War II. Kurdistan-Iraq (n.Iraq) is pro-US . After centuries of persecution by Jordanians, Syrians and Iranians, the Kurds have been doing well in keeping insurgents in line in their area. In fact, less than 100 US troops are officially stationed in Kurd regions.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/16/60minutes/main2486679.shtml

Shortly after Gulf War I, hoping to get US support, there was a popular uprising of Iraqi Kurds against Saddam. Saddam gassed them for their trouble.


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## js

submoa said:


> With that logic, should we judge all catholics by the actions of the IRA and quotes taken from some Irish Priests?


It's not my logic... It's an estimate from terrorism experts who know a little more about the issue than little ole' me.



> Al Quaida, Taliban, Saudi Royal Family


and what is the one thing that binds them all together...? :smt023


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## js

submoa said:


> How about an example of Pro-US muslims?
> 
> Kurds are muslim. Kurdish Peshmurga militia fought alongside coalition forces againt Saddam in Gulf War II. Kurdistan-Iraq (n.Iraq) is pro-US . After centuries of persecution by Jordanians, Syrians and Iranians, the Kurds have been doing well in keeping insurgents in line in their area. In fact, less than 100 US troops are officially stationed in Kurd regions.
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/16/60minutes/main2486679.shtml
> 
> Shortly after Gulf War I, hoping to get US support, there was a popular uprising of Iraqi Kurds against Saddam. Saddam gassed them for their trouble.


There is no denying that... But, it sure would be nice if the other 99.99999999998% would step up to the plate as well.


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## DevilsJohnson

js said:


> There is no denying that... But, it sure would be nice if the other 99.99999999998% would step up to the plate as well.


+1:smt023


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## submoa

js said:


> and what is the one thing that binds them all together...?


Al Quaida is a unified terroist cabal funded by Wahhibist Saudis.
Taliban are a Pashtun nationalist party comprised mainly of graduates of Madrasah schools funded by Wahhibist Saudis.
Saudi Royal Family support Wahhibism politically and financially.

The one thing that binds them all together is US dollars paid to the Saudi Royal Family for oil.









http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1211-05.htm

Trying to say that it is Islam binds them together is as relevant as saying Branch Davidians and Born Again Christians are unified by their Christianity.


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## submoa

js said:


> There is no denying that... But, it sure would be nice if the other 99.99999999998% would step up to the plate as well.


The majority of Malaysia is moslem and Islam is the official religion. Since independence, Malaysia has been fighting an ongoing guerrilla war against Communist insurgents.

Indonesia is a muslim country too. The Indonesian government has been documented in the news as working with US intelligence to wipe out the Al Quaida cells in their country.

So lets see:

1 million terrorist/bad guys

5.5 million Iraqi Kurds
25 million Malays
235 million Indonesians

According to your 1 billion moslem estimate, over 25% have stepped up to the plate to fight terrorism without doing much research and without including Pakistan.


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## DevilsJohnson

I guess we can wait and give them time to grow out of it...How old is this faith again?

Watching events around the world the last 20+ years with people burning effigies of American leaders, our Flags etc it sure looks to me like a lot of people hating us to the point that they want to demonstrate their hatred by killing stuffed likenesses of us. Just how many Americans have to die on our land as well as around the world before people say enough. How many videos will websites and newscasts with people having their heads removed in a way that is the most possible painful way, allow them to live longer while hurting. How proud are these people that wear masks to do these things then cry foul because they are hunted. Why hide in a crowd of people that "statistically" don't believe you are doing the right thing then say you are bad for having to go to every door in the land

The rules of the game are handed down by those that start the fight. I really don't want to hear cries of foul from people that allow the problem to exist. These good Muslims need to rise up and take care of this problem that is tearing their homelands and faith apart. Their own non support for this situation causes people like myself to think that they might not be in as much a disagreement as they say.:watching:


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## js

I'll just let her explain... I'm quite sure she knows much more about what's going on with Islam than any of us on this thread. :smt023

Wafa Sultan











and what has happened to this brave woman... This news story was just released today. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/144165


> (IsraelNN.com) Dr. Wafa Sultan has been forced to go into hiding with her family following a fatwa (religious edict) from an Islamic scholar, according to Omedia. Sultan faces the fatwa following a recent debate on Al-Jazeera in which she challenged Egyptian Islamist Talat Rheim over Dutch cartoons of Mohammed, who Muslims revere as a prophet. Sultan argued that Denmark had the right to print the cartoons.
> 
> Sultan joins a growing list of public critics of radical Islam facing death threats. Her supporters have asked the American public to join them in writing to the embassy of Qatar, the country which sponsors Al-Jazeera, as well as to United States President George Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, asking them to defend Sultan's right to free speech and personal safety.


I think I've made my point...

for those who choose to keep there heads buried in the sand (no pun untended) feel free to continue.​


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## P89Jeeper

First off, thanks cvillechopper for backing up *MY* religion. I am a born and raised Texan, and a muslim. I can't believe how uneducated and misinformed a lot of the nation is. This is why almost all of the world hates America.

If you actually go and read a translated version of the Koran you will see that the way all of these extremist are acting isn't the way that we are taught to act. We are supposed to allow any religion worship god in any shape or form that they want. God said that as long as they are worshiping me in one way or another let it be.

Should I call all Christians crazy because of what happened in Waco with David Koresh? Is that fair to all the other Christians?

I mean get off your ass and go and read something before you start making stupid comment. You are just hurting your children by being this ignorant because you are passing that on to them.

Out of 50% of kids from the ages 18-24 that where surveyed couldn't point out the Pacific ocean on a map. Another 50% couldn't even point out New York on a map.

Instead of making these stupid comments on the net, why don't you and your kids go and pick up some books and get a little cultured.

It's sad that I just registered on this forum and this is what I get greeted with.


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## js

P89Jeeper said:


> First off, thanks cvillechopper for backing up *MY* religion. I am a born and raised Texan, and a muslim. I can't believe how uneducated and misinformed a lot of the nation is. This is why almost all of the world hates America.


Well, then start educating us... I have some questions...

Why has Wafa Sultan gone into hiding....?

What can you do... as a "good" muslim do to stop the radicals that have hijacked your religion?

What is "jihad" and why has it been waged against the West...?

When someone releases a cartoon of Mohammad, why do muslims riot, kill, burn down churches and buildings...?

Do you, as a muslim, believe that Israel has the right to exsist...?

What is an "Honor Killing"...?


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## P89Jeeper

js said:


> Well, then start educating us... :watching:
> 
> Why has Wafa Sultan gone into hiding....?
> 
> What can you do... as a "good" muslim do to stop the radicals that have hijacked your religion?
> 
> What is "jihad" and why has it been waged against the West...?
> 
> When someone releases a cartoon of Mohammad, why do muslims riot, kill, burn down churches and buildings...?


Sultan isn't even a Muslim, and she is hiding because she is scared of the extremist.

I don't know why you have to put good into quotes, but as yall stated in some post earlier on, what am I supposed to do against 1,000,000 people? I can't do anything for them, and if I could, I would disposed of them all. The only thing that can be done is try to educate the ones that will listen

Jihad is an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, Jihad means "strive" or "struggle". Jihad appears frequently in the Qur'an and common usage as the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of Allah. A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen.

A minority among the Sunni scholars sometimes refer to this Islamic duty as the sixth pillar of Islam, though it occupies no such official status. In Twelver Shi'a Islam, however, Jihad is one of the 10 Practices of the Religion.

According to scholar John Esposito, Jihad requires Muslims to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society." Jihad is directed against the devil's inducements, aspects of one's own self, or against a visible enemy.

Again the cartoon thing. This is the extremist. We aren't taught to be violent people. That is again the children of ignorant people that have been taught things that have been twisted and not really in the faith.

Of course they have a right to exsist. They are people and they have the right to worship god in anyway that they feel fit.

There isn't a such thing as an Honor killing. Any killing is a sin.

He is a racist, homophobic, antisemitic, so no, I don't agree with anything he says.


----------



## Steve M1911A1

P89Jeeper said:


> ...We are supposed to allow any religion worship god in any shape or form that they want. God said that as long as they are worshiping me in one way or another let it be...


Um, sorry, but the Koran also speaks about the unbeliever (Christian, Jew, whatever) as "_dhimmi_," second-class citizens who are specially taxed, have fewer civil rights, are not allowed to bear arms and, indeed, aren't even allowed to fight back against an attack on person or property by a Muslim.
Further, the Koran commands that any religion newer than Islam, Bahai for instance, is a religion that must necessarily be apostate from Islam, and that its adherents are therefore to be either forceably converted or put to death.

I admit that both Judaism and Christianity also have some things like these in their backgrounds, but these older religions now have matured and become more tolerant.
We in the West are waiting, less and less patiently, for Islam to grow up too.


----------



## js

P89Jeeper said:


> This is the extremist. We aren't taught to be violent people. That is again the children of ignorant people that have been taught things that have been twisted and not really in the faith.


The extremist seem to have the upper hand at this point.

Of course, we say extremist views... but aren't these views a growing majority in the places like the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan...etc?

When you say uneducated.... This is what we are seeing and hearing...

Can you explain this...






and can you explain this as well...






and this one...






also, do you agree with the Muslims in the video below... for the annihilation of Jews...?


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## submoa

I don't support any particular religion, I do however support your right to worship as you choose and demand you respect my right to choose for myself.

I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.

Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.

But if it doesn't, the CSA hasn't hijacked the Baptist Church. Likewise some fatwah issuing mullah in Iran hasn't hijacked the mosque in Duluth.

By all means hunt down terrorists who bomb, behead and maim, but don't bully the kid who wears religious adornment, if its a hijab or a skullcap.


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## P89Jeeper

js said:


> The extremist seem to have the upper hand at this point.
> 
> Of course, we say extremist views... but aren't these views a growing majority in the places like the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan...etc?
> 
> When you say uneducated.... This is what we are seeing and hearing...
> 
> Can you explain this...


Yes they have the upper hand. Why don't you see other Muslims standing up and condemning them for what they are saying and doing? Because they are afraid for their lives. Living here in Texas you don't see to many Muslims and when something goes wrong and we had debates in my classes I would try to explain what is going on in the real peoples views. That's not on the large scale, but what can a poor med student do, just try to educate the people around me.

Yes those views are growing in those countries, but not by the citizens of those countries, but the people who run them. I have family in Iran that don't know half of what is going on here, or what their political leaders are saying on international news networks. Everything is hidden from them. It isn't like here where you can just get on the internet and find out what you want. They restrict things like that. They don't let anyone have a satellite so they can't get any news from other countries. And that stuff is the stuff you are seeing is because you aren't looking for the news cast that talk good about the religion, but something that is controversial.

And as far as the dhimmi goes, that is from text that is from the 7th century. Things have changed since then. There are somethings that I do that I am not supposed to, like drink, eat pork, and have tattoos, but that's because I believe that this is a different time and place and you can't read into all the book. For example the pork thing. This was written into the Koran because the pig was a dirty animal and you could get tape worm from them. It isn't the case these days. I mean you still can get tape worm, but the chances now are very slim. Besides I need my ribs and bacon.


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## P89Jeeper

submoa said:


> I don't support any particular religion, I do however support your right to worship as you choose and demand you respect my right to choose for myself.
> 
> I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.
> 
> Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.
> 
> But if it doesn't, the CSA hasn't hijacked the Baptist Church. Likewise some fatwah issuing mullah in Iran hasn't hijacked the mosque in Duluth.
> 
> By all means hunt down terrorists who bomb, behead and maim, but don't bully the kid who wears religious adornment, if its a hijab or a skullcap.


I am by no means saying that JS is wrong about the radical Muslim, but I don't like when people say Muslims or Islam and not radicals because that gives all of us bad names.


----------



## js

submoa said:


> I don't support any particular religion, I do however support your right to worship as you choose and demand you respect my right to choose for myself.
> 
> I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.
> 
> Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.
> 
> But if it doesn't, the CSA hasn't hijacked the Baptist Church. Likewise some fatwah issuing mullah in Iran hasn't hijacked the mosque in Duluth.
> 
> By all means hunt down terrorists who bomb, behead and maim, but don't bully the kid who wears religious adornment, if its a hijab or a skullcap.


+1

I don't really consider myself a religious person... more spiritual I guess... I personally think all organized religion has major flaws and is extremely hypocritical. But anyway....

But, I guess it really starts to boil down to this when it comes to Islam... Is the extremist view now the norm...? It seems that there are 2 Islamic views on everything...


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## P89Jeeper

js said:


> +1
> 
> I don't really consider myself a religious person... more spiritual I guess... I personally think all organized religion has major flaws and is extremely hypocritical. But anyway....
> 
> But, I guess it really starts to boil down to this when it comes to Islam... Is the extremist view now the norm...? It seems that there are 2 Islamic views on everything...


The norm in peoples eyes nowadays, yes because that is what they see on tv all the time. In the a true Muslims eyes no.


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## js

P89Jeeper said:


> And as far as the dhimmi goes, that is from text that is from the 7th century. Things have changed since then. There are somethings that I do that I am not supposed to, like drink, eat pork, and have tattoos, but that's because I believe that this is a different time and place and you can't read into all the book. For example the pork thing. This was written into the Koran because the pig was a dirty animal and you could get tape worm from them. It isn't the case these days. I mean you still can get tape worm, but the chances now are very slim. Besides I need my ribs and bacon.


What you wrote is a good example... What would a die hard religious muslim think about what you are doing...? I guess you could say... "old school" muslim...


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## Steve M1911A1

P89Jeeper said:


> Yes they have the upper hand. Why don't you see other Muslims standing up and condemning them for what they are saying and doing? Because they are afraid for their lives...


All you need, to have evil in the world, is that good people do nothing.

(I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the actual quote.)


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## js

What about Sharia law...?


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## submoa

js said:


> Is the extremist view now the norm...?


Human interest stories about Moslem family life will not sell newspapers or advertising time on TV. International news in the press is total crap. I read the Economist and watch BBC America to find out whats going on outside the US.


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## submoa

js said:


> What about Sharia law...?


What a great idea for the folks in Gitmo.

Given crimes committed while on parole and rampant recividism, Sharia might be more effective than 3 strikes.


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## P89Jeeper

js said:


> What you wrote is a good example... What would a die hard religious muslim think about what you are doing...? I guess you could say... "old school" muslim...


They don't like it. Like my mom for example. She can't stand that I eat pork, have tattoos or drink beer, but I am her son and she loves me anyways. Or when I have brought up that I am a Muslim in class the "old school" Muslims in class don't believe me at first because of my tattoos, and they can't believe I even got them. I tell them "Come out with me on the weekend and see if your still mad about the tattoos". The way I see it is it's the 21th century, times have changed. As long as I don't bad mouth anyone or steal, I will be ok.


----------



## js

submoa said:


> I
> 
> I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.
> 
> Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians or Americans, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.


When it comes to radical Christians... You're not seeing the suicide "christian" bombers or christians taking hostages and beheading them or homosexuals being hanged. Also, you're not hearing about or seeing women being stoned to death... or placed on soccer field and having their brains blown out by an AK47.

I'm sure that if this was going on... People would lump.


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## js

P89Jeeper said:


> They don't like it. Like my mom for example. She can't stand that I eat pork, have tattoos or drink beer, but I am her son and she loves me anyways. Or when I have brought up that I am a Muslim in class the "old school" Muslims in class don't believe me at first because of my tattoos, and they can't believe I even got them. I tell them "Come out with me on the weekend and see if your still mad about the tattoos". The way I see it is it's the 21th century, times have changed. As long as I don't bad mouth anyone or steal, I will be ok.


Do you think that your life would be in danger if you lived in a more muslim majority type area and still lived your lifestyle...?


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## P89Jeeper

Well, after talking to the few of yall that I have tonight, I do have to retract my calling yall stupid and ignorant. I just got a little heated when I came here to talk and read about one of my loves, guns, and saw that post as the first one. I can tell just by the few posts that yall are educated, but just a little misinformed.


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## P89Jeeper

js said:


> Do you think that your life would be in danger if you lived in a more muslim majority type area and still lived your lifestyle...?


Without a doubt. Well, if you are talking about the middle east. As far as a more Muslim majority here in America, no. Plus I have a CHL. :smt070 That is one of the reason I am proud to be born here in America where I don't have to worry about that.


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## submoa

js said:


> When it comes to radical Christians... You're not seeing the suicide "christian" bombers or christians taking hostages and beheading them. Also, you're not hearing about or seeing women being stoned to death... or placed on soccer field and having their brains blown out by an AK47.
> 
> I'm sure that if this was going on... People would lump.


Its going on, except maybe the suicide part.

Christian Identity

Christian Identity has been associated with terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph, who carried out a series of bombings across the southern United States, which killed three people and injured at least 150 others, because he violently opposed abortion and homosexuality as contrary to Christian doctrine. His mother spent time with Nord Davis, a Christian Identity ideologue who wrote propaganda claiming that the world was controlled by Jews, and which advocated killing gays and those who engaged in mixed-race relationships. Rudolph's sister-in-law claimed that he was a member of the sect, but Rudolph claims to have only been a member of a Christian Identity church for six months because he was dating the daughter of Identity Pastor Dan Gayman, and wrote "I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one." Idaho State University sociology professor James A. Aho said, "I would prefer to say that Rudolph is a religiously inspired terrorist, because most mainstream Christians consider Christian Identity to be a heresy."

Army of God

In 2001, at the height of the United States anthrax scare, more than 170 abortion clinics and doctors offices in 14 states received letters containing white powder and the message "You have been exposed to anthrax. We are going to kill all of you. Army of God, Virginia DARE Chapter." In December 2003 Clayton Waagner was convicted for these attacks. Waagner had entered the home of antiabortion militant Neal Horsley, tied him up and held him at gunpoint, and then made a taped confession. Ann Glazier, director of clinic security at the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, said that during the trial Waagner had "repeatedly bragged that he had been the most wanted man in America and that he was a terrorist. It was unbelievable." Salon magazine reported that whilst the press had generally called Waagner a terrorist, they "studiously avoid use of the word 'Christian'". Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, said "If Waagner had been a self-identified Muslim terrorist instead of a Christian terrorist, he'd have been lynched by now...But if it's fair to say if we can see the religious motivations in the Taliban, we ought to be able to see them in Waagner or Eric Rudolph."

Aryan Nations

In 1999, a member of the neo-Nazi organization, Buford O. Furrow Jr., confessed to FBI in the killing of a fill-in mail carrier, and the wounding of five other people in a Jewish community center. Aryan Nations followers admire Adolf Hitler and claim that minority group members are "mud people" and spawns of Satan. Authorities quoted Furrow as saying he wanted his act to be "a wake-up call to America to kill Jews." Furrow had also once told police that he often fantasized about suicide, while neighbors, associates, and court records stated that Furrow had a long history of mental illness and had interests in white supremacist religion and paramilitary. Furrow who was an officer of the internal security force of the Aryan Nations reportedly stockpiled weapons and ammunition, abused his wife, and once daydreamed about shooting people at random in a shopping mall near Seattle. Less than an hour after opening fire at the Jewish community center and wounding three little boys and two female workers, Furrow gunned down Joseph Ileto, a U.S. postal worker. Furrow reportedly told investigators he considered killing the mail carrier a "good opportunity" because Ileto was nonwhite and worked for the federal government. Furrow was reportedly second husband to Debbie Mathews, the widow of Robert J. Mathews, domestic terrorist who died in a shootout with Federal authorities in 1994 and the founder of a U.S. neo-Nazi group called the Order which was involved in a campaign of assassinations, bombings and robberies. The Order was supposedly broken apart by arrests, internal dissent and killings; however, some members vowed to strike at targets in small groups or alone, committing violent acts against Jews, blacks, homosexuals or abortion providers thereby earning membership in a loose-knit fraternity of racists who call themselves priests, the Phineas Priesthood. Richard Kelly Hoskins, author of many books about race and banking, one of which was found in Furrow's van, wrote, "As the kamikaze is to the Japanese, as the Shiite is to Islam, as the Zionist is to the Jew, so the Phineas Priest is to Christiandom." Interviewed from his home in Lynchburg, Va., Mr. Hoskins said the book found in Furrow's possession, "War Cycles/Peace Cycles," was about "the history of usury," including what he called "the traditional Jewish presence in banking," and wrote on his Web page that the book explains "the necessity for assassination of national leaders." For the August 1999 shootings in which five people were wounded and one man killed, Furrow received two life sentences plus 110 years in prison.


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## js

P89Jeeper said:


> Without a doubt. That is one of the reason I am proud to be born here in America where I don't have to worry about that.


see... that is what's really sad about all this.

But, you have to understand... we are bombarded by information about radicals who have expressed their intentions. On Sept 11th, 2001 they made good on their promise and continue to express their intentions to do more harm. They proved that they can follow through with their intentions. It's unfortunate that muslims like yourself are caught in the middle and I admit...I profile. I just don't who is "old school" or "new school"  in their beliefs. Of course, if a tattooed, beer drinking, pork chop eating muslim walked up to me I think I'd be ok.

And, I've only met 2 Muslims in my life... both were not good impressions. First, older man who refused to shake my hand due to my beliefs and the other was a girl that I dated a couple of years ago... her family insisted that she stop seeing me... because again, my beliefs differed from theirs. She was "new school", they, her parents...and grandmother, were "old school".


----------



## P89Jeeper

js said:


> see... that is what's really sad about all this.
> 
> But, you have to understand... we are bombarded by information about radicals who have expressed their intentions. On Sept 11th, 2001 they made good on their promise and continue to express their intentions to do more harm. They proved that they can follow through with their intentions. It's unfortunate that muslims like yourself are caught in the middle and I admit...I profile. I just don't who is "old school" or "new school"  in their beliefs. And, I've only met 2 Muslims in my life... both were not good impressions. First, older man who refused to shake my hand due to my beliefs and the other was a girl that I dated a couple of years ago... her family insisted that she stop seeing me... because again, my beliefs differed from theirs. She was "new school", they, her parents...and grandmother, were "old school".


I do understand. Its unfortunate that you haven't had good impressions with the ones that you have met, I bet if we met at a bar and you didn't know my religion, but then found out later on that night, you wouldn't get a bad impression from me.


----------



## js

P89Jeeper said:


> I do understand. Its unfortunate that you haven't had good impressions with the ones that you have met, I bet if we met at a bar and you didn't know my religion, but then found out later on that night, you wouldn't get a bad impression from me.


Like I said, after editing my last post...

if a tattooed, beer drinking, pork chop eating muslim walked up to me I think I'd be ok. :smt023


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## Steve M1911A1

*To submoa:*

The parallel you're trying to draw is ineffective.

Radical Christians such as the sects you described are infinitely-small minorities, and definitely not tolerated in our society.
Further, nobody is afraid of standing up to them, or of speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness.

On the other hand, J89Jeeper truthfully states that moderate muslims, the vast majority in Islam, are scared to death of standing up to the relatively larger group of radicals among them.

The West learned, between 1933 and 1945 (and also, in another case, between 1919 and quite recently), that the only way to stop deadly radicals is to stand up and fight them, either in a shooting war or with powerful economics.

Islam has not yet learned that lesson. We are hoping that they do eventually learn it, and soon.


----------



## submoa

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The parallel you're trying to draw is ineffective.


The parallel I'm trying to draw is that to label a whole group of religions based on the behavior of some sects is a dangerous generalization that flirts with bigotry. And the Christian terrorist examples are to refute JS's proposition that Christian terrorists are somehow kinder, gentler, soft and cuddlier than other brands. But if its not working you're right, its ineffective.

Its unfortunate, but as a culture we have a long sad history of dehumanizing people: Black slavery, Chinese railroads, Japanese internment, Mexican illegal immigration. Now moslems and terrorism. Dehumanizing people may make it easier to tolerate if not outright support activities such as the Patriot Act, waterboarding and rendition. I'd like to change that and encourage you to deal with people based on their individual merits (and waterboard all criminals... jk:mrgreen.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> Radical Christians such as the sects you described are infinitely-small minorities, and definitely not tolerated in our society.


Your comment about small minorities sounds exactly like the point P89Jeeper is trying to make.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> Further, nobody is afraid of standing up to them, or of speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness.


Nobody being afraid of radicals may be a bit of a stretch.

Truth be told, its easy to speak your mind anonymously on an Internet forum. But when was the last time you went up to a group of skinheads and debated the lack of merits of their beliefs? If the KKK were holding a rally in your town, would you be the first one to show up to protest? Even if the next person showed up in less than a minute, that would be one long minute. The average person is not Billy Jack.

Lets take the ideology out of the equation and think of terrorists as the criminal gangs that they are. How effective have we been in not tolerating urban gangs like the Crips and Bloods? Last I heard, they have been around for over 30 years with the police working against them. Do you think people who live in neighborhoods where these thugs prowl are afraid of "speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness," in open court? Does everyone that lives in a Crip neighborhood belong to a gang? Are gang members even a majority in these neighborhoods? Now what if that neighborhood was a small town in Iran?


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## SigZagger

This "religion" point can be argued, discussed, hashed over forever. Let's just say they are the present day enemy. Their assignment, task, goal is to kill anyone who does not believe in their way of thinking. We are in the fight, so we have to defend our way of thinking and kill them before they are cruising our streets firing RPG's in through our dining room window while we eat with our family. It's the free world vs. the unfree world. We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar? Different time, different uniforms. It's not complicated or difficult, with the exception this enemy is literally all over the world and starting to become US home grown.


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## P89Jeeper

SigZagger said:


> This "religion" point can be argued, discussed, hashed over forever. Let's just say they are the present day enemy. Their assignment, task, goal is to kill anyone who does not believe in their way of thinking. We are in the fight, so we have to defend our way of thinking and kill them before they are cruising our streets firing RPG's in through our dining room window while we eat with our family. It's the free world vs. the unfree world. We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar? Different time, different uniforms. It's not complicated or difficult, with the exception this enemy is literally all over the world and starting to become US home grown.


Have you not been reading what we were talking about? Did you just chime in with just reading of the posts? WE aren't the present day enemy, it's the extremist. What about John Allen Muhammad? He wasn't a Muslim his whole life, he converted and twisted the faith. You can't put the majority of a people into a group and say they are the present day enemy. What do you want to do? Do you want to put every practicing Muslim in a Camp like they did the Japanese after they bombed Pearl Harbor? What did that do? That didn't stop anything because the majority of the people they locked up were hard working people just trying to live the American dream. What do you think we should do?


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## submoa

*Its all about the benjamins*



Steve M1911A1 said:


> The West learned, between 1933 and 1945 (and also, in another case, between 1919 and quite recently), that the only way to stop deadly radicals is to stand up and fight them, either in a shooting war or with powerful economics.





SigZagger said:


> We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar?


Yes... it does sound familiar.

Prescott Bush, Bush Senior's father, extended credit to Adolph Hitler and supplied him with raw materials during Word War II. The U. S. seized his assets under the Trading with the Enemy Act, but grandfather Bush found other ways to replenish the family coffers.

History repeats...

Bush Senior struck it rich in oil and in the defense industry. Mahfouz (bin Laden's father in law), Prince Bandar and Prince Sultan (Bandar's father) were also heavily invested in the defense industry through their holdings in the Carlyle Group, where Bush Senior served on the board of directors. Founded in 1987 as a private investment group with strong connections to the Republican Party establishment, Carlyle increased its original investment of $130 million to $900 million when it went public in 2001.

In recent years, Carlyle has been successful both at raising and making money. It has raised $14 billion in the last five years or so, and its annual rate of return has been 36 percent. Its 550 investors consist of institutions and wealthy individuals from around the world including, until shortly after September 2001, members of the bin Laden family of Saudi Arabia. The family - which has publicly disavowed links with Osama bin Laden - had been an investor since 1995.

As the eleventh largest US defence contractor, Carlyle is involved in nearly every aspect of military production, including making the big guns used on US naval destroyers, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle used by US forces during the Gulf War and parts used in most commercial and military aircraft. United Defense has joint ventures in Saudi Arabia and Turkey, two of the United States' closest military allies in the Middle East.

It's passing strange that even as the hijacked planes smashed into the World Trade Center, the Carlyle Group was holding its annual investor conference. Shafig Bin Laden, brother of Osama Bin Laden, attended.

Somehow people miss out on the irony of the financial connection between Bush and Bin Laden families and Dubya's efforts to prosecute Osama.


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## Steve M1911A1

submoa said:


> ...But when was the last time you went up to a group of skinheads and debated the lack of merits of their beliefs?


"Debating" with skinheads would be both futile and dangerous. They only understand force. Facing down skinheads, however, is effective and has worked pretty well.



submoa said:


> If the KKK were holding a rally in your town, would you be the first one to show up to protest?


Yes! Been there, done that. Didn't get hurt.



submoa said:


> Lets take the ideology out of the equation and think of terrorists as the criminal gangs that they are. How effective have we been in not tolerating urban gangs like the Crips and Bloods? Last I heard, they have been around for over 30 years with the police working against them. Do you think people who live in neighborhoods where these thugs prowl are afraid of "speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness," in open court? Does everyone that lives in a Crip neighborhood belong to a gang? Are gang members even a majority in these neighborhoods? Now what if that neighborhood was a small town in Iran?


Part of the difficulty in dealing with Crips, Bloods, and the like-and Shiite and Sunni militias too-is the disparity in armament.
As long as the city governments of the US believe that citizen disarmament brings peace, the Crips and Bloods will be on the winning side.
In places where the neighborhood has effectively fought back, the Crips and Bloods have been losing.
I'd bet the same is true in Iraq, with Kurdistan being my proof-point.


----------



## john doe.

J89Jeeper: I must say, for you to speak out like this is a very brave thing to do and I admire your courage to do so.:smt023 It would be like a black man knowingly walking into a KKK meeting.

I hope you can see where we are coming from. All we’ve seen for years is death and destruction by one group of people who have the commonality of being Muslims and doing these awful things in the name of Islam. 911 is a terrible time in our history and to hear about others cheering when the towers fell gets me pretty pissed off.

I’ve only meet a few people whom I’ve assumed to be Muslim (they were Arabic and African). I had good talks with them and enjoyed the conversation. I’ve yet to meet a Muslim like you who is very different than what we’ve come to know as a Muslim. You seem to be more of a ******* Muslim with the ink, beer, and pork. No insult intended here. You sound like you may be a fun guy to hang around. :supz:

We read all the time that Islam is a peaceful religion and then read on the same page about the suicide bombings and beheadings done by Muslims in the name of Islam. For example. I read an article just today that I’ll post on this subject. I also read a good article relating this to Nazi Germany that you may find interesting. 

How do people like you change the hearts of the extremist? If people like you do not stand up and say that the extremists are wrong then you will find that you will some day be in the minority or dead by the hand of those who preach from the same book.

I don’t hate Muslims. I hate those who murder under the name of Islam. Though I think your religion is wrong, I respect your right to practice it as long as it does not infringe on my right to practice mine. But hear lies the problem- many of the Islam faith do not want me to have that right and say, demand, that I either convert or die. Well, as a Christian, I will die for Christ as He died for me. 

I’m sure you may have some pretty bad views of me based on my postings and I can understand that if I tried to look at it from your side. I’m very open about my Christianity and how I feel about those who want to deny me of my right to practice it. All I ask is that you try to see it from our side and I think you have. Overall, we (all religions) just want to be left alone and live in peace, raise our families, drink a beer or two or three or..., have a good pork dinner on the grill, lie about the monster fish we caught and shoot our guns. 
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Fox News

Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished

Tuesday, April 01, 2008


A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.

A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.

"Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet," the Imam says, according to the report. "If you don't believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain."

The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam's position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.

"You are innocent if you are a Muslim," Choudary tells the BBC. "Then you are innocent in the eyes of God. If you are not a Muslim, then you are guilty of not believing in God."

Choudary said he would not condemn a Muslim for any action.

"As a Muslim, I must support my Muslim brothers and sisters," Choudary said. "I must have hatred to everything that is not Muslim."
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A German's point of view on Islam.

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.

It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.


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## P89Jeeper

tnoisaw said:


> J89Jeeper: I must say, for you to speak out like this is a very brave thing to do and I admire your courage to do so.:smt023 It would be like a black man knowingly walking into a KKK meeting.
> 
> I hope you can see where we are coming from. All we've seen for years is death and destruction by one group of people who have the commonality of being Muslims and doing these awful things in the name of Islam. 911 is a terrible time in our history and to hear about others cheering when the towers fell gets me pretty pissed off.
> 
> I've only meet a few people whom I've assumed to be Muslim (they were Arabic and African). I had good talks with them and enjoyed the conversation. I've yet to meet a Muslim like you who is very different than what we've come to know as a Muslim. You seem to be more of a ******* Muslim with the ink, beer, and pork. No insult intended here. You sound like you may be a fun guy to hang around. :supz:
> 
> We read all the time that Islam is a peaceful religion and then read on the same page about the suicide bombings and beheadings done by Muslims in the name of Islam. For example. I read an article just today that I'll post on this subject. I also read a good article relating this to Nazi Germany that you may find interesting.
> 
> How do people like you change the hearts of the extremist? If people like you do not stand up and say that the extremists are wrong then you will find that you will some day be in the minority or dead by the hand of those who preach from the same book.
> 
> I don't hate Muslims. I hate those who murder under the name of Islam. Though I think your religion is wrong, I respect your right to practice it as long as it does not infringe on my right to practice mine. But hear lies the problem- many of the Islam faith do not want me to have that right and say, demand, that I either convert or die. Well, as a Christian, I will die for Christ as He died for me.
> 
> I'm sure you may have some pretty bad views of me based on my postings and I can understand that if I tried to look at it from your side. I'm very open about my Christianity and how I feel about those who want to deny me of my right to practice it. All I ask is that you try to see it from our side and I think you have. Overall, we (all religions) just want to be left alone and live in peace, raise our families, drink a beer or two or three or..., have a good pork dinner on the grill, lie about the monster fish we caught and shoot our guns.


I do understand where you are coming from. I didn't like seeing all of those people cheering when the Towers came down. I am American and it hit me just as it hit you.

Thanks, I take that as a compliment. I do see my self as a ******* as I am Texan, love guns, beer, and rock crawling in my Jeep.:smt023

As far as standing up to the extremist, what can I do but educate the ones around me about the extremist. I believe that the extremist them selves are a lost cause and need to be dealt with in that manner. I mean when I finish school and have time to take action I will do what I can. But it really needs to take place in those countries. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the others. The people need to have another revolution and get the current people that are in power out and start over. It isn't working with Iraq because WE went in there and tried to change things, but if it was the people there, I believe it would have been different. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Sadam is out of power because of everything that he has done to the family that I have in Iran, but I believe for a change of power to help, it needs to be the people, not another country.

I also hate the ones that murder under the Islam faith. It makes us look bad. And you have all the right to believe that my religion is wrong, thanks to where we live, and I don't look at you any different for thinking that way. And as far as Christ goes, we believe in him also. The only difference is that we see him as a prophet and not God or God's son. So he also died for my sins.

As I said in the paragraph above, I don't have any bad views of you at all. I believe anyone can think what they want, we are all humans and we have our own mind. And I agree with you, as soon as someone tells me that I can't practice my religion the way that I want to would get up in arms also. I do see it from yalls side, I just get a little angry when on the 6 or 7 forums that I am on, I always see someone bashing all the Islamic people, not the extremist, and no one backs up the majority, so I had to chime in. It just happened to be on the top of the list on the homepage, and I wasn't expecting it.

If any of yall are ever in the Dallas area, send me a PM, lets have a beer and see for yourself.


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## Steve M1911A1

*J89Jeeper:*
I'll chime in with my acceptance, and my pleasure to have read your essays.
Although the concept of _dhimmi_ is still with us, as characterized by the news story in Tony's post, I'm happy to see that you repudiate it.
I wish only that there were many more Muslims like you.
If you're ever going to be in Northwest Washington State, let me know. We live in a place that isn't easy to get to, but it's so beautiful that it's worth the effort. And the beer is cold. Come see.


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## john doe.

Hey, the invite for Northwestern Montana stands open too. Glacier National Park is my playground. If you don't feel comfortable in an area that's mostly full of whites I'll invite one of our couples friends. She's black (Her husband calls her cracker black cause she’s only black by the color of her skin) and he's Iraqi decent (his dad escaped Sadam's wrath). Since your Iranian, people around here will probably think your American Indian and you'll fit right in. We’d be one multicultural sight that’s for sure.


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## P89Jeeper

Thanks yall. Yea, around here most people think I am hispanic.


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## john doe.

P89Jeeper said:


> Thanks yall. Yea, around here most people think I am hispanic.


In these times I don't think that would be a bad thing especially living in Texas. At least you can blend in instead of standout. My grandfather-in-law is Mexican and in the summer he would turn very dark if he was in the sun too long and then people thought he was black. He hated that.


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## SigZagger

P89Jeeper said:


> Have you not been reading what we were talking about? Did you just chime in with just reading of the posts? WE aren't the present day enemy, it's the extremist. What about John Allen Muhammad? He wasn't a Muslim his whole life, he converted and twisted the faith. You can't put the majority of a people into a group and say they are the present day enemy. What do you want to do? Do you want to put every practicing Muslim in a Camp like they did the Japanese after they bombed Pearl Harbor? What did that do? That didn't stop anything because the majority of the people they locked up were hard working people just trying to live the American dream. What do you think we should do?


You are reading what YOU want to hear in my post. The enemy of the world today, in 2008 is the group of fighters calling themselves muslims. Of course not all muslims are what you call extremists, as all Germans were not Nazi's. But, all the average American knows about the muslim faith is what they see on media reports. Hell, I remember the Black muslims of the 60's, burning cities and killing cops. Fast forward and now, a group of men fly commercial jet airplanes into civilian buildings, etc. Not to mention the military targets attacked before 9-11. You get upset about how the free world reacts to the muslims, well you should. Until we as a nation start seeing something positive it won't change. In fact, why don't you enlighten us to the positives of the muslim faith.


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## submoa

P89Jeeper:

I'm glad to see that you have been able to open some folks up to the idea that not all muslims fit the stereotype seen in movies and Al Jazeera.

Having been to Bosnia and Turkey, the people I met were very european, few if any wore the hijab, and most, like yourself, are ordinary people leading secular lifestyles while being of muslim faith. 

Given the reactions I've seen here, I can only imagine what would happen if some of these people ever met my blue-eyed blonde Circassian wife.

Stay strong and shoot straight.


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## Mike Barham

I just spent a year in Afghanistan. I know I keep harping on this, but the _overwhelming_ majority of local people I met there - and I mean in the hundreds - were just regular folks trying to get by in a tough situation. They are more like us than they are different. They want mostly the same things we do: safety, some wealth, a good standard of living, seeing their kids become successful, seeing their country do well, etc.

Even if a million radicalized Muslims really do want to kill every Jew/Christian/infidel, they are clearly not acting on that desire or we'd have a much larger terrorism problem than we do. And even if they _were_ acting on it...we're somewhat at a loss of how to punish them without also punishing the 99% of Muslims who are just plain folk.

I know everyone likes to say "we need to take the gloves off" and such, but no one ever explains what that actually means in terms of a concrete military or law enforcement strategy.


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## P89Jeeper

Thanks submoa as you also were helping with opening up some of the peoples eyes. 

Mike, thanks for telling everyone about what is going on over there and not everyone is a bad Muslim.

Sig, I am sure if you read some of my other posts you will see some of the positives of the Islamic faith.


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