# Another case of an irresponsible gun owner



## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Deputies: Florida toddler fatally shoots self with dad's gun

Would it actually help if all states required a course on firearms ownership? Or.....would it just be another feel good requirement?

I simply cannot imagine having to deal with the death of a child (or anyone for that matter) due to my carelessness.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Deputies: Florida toddler fatally shoots self with dad's gun
> 
> Would it actually help if all states required a course on firearms ownership? Or.....would it just be another feel good requirement?
> 
> I simply cannot imagine having to deal with the death of a child (or anyone for that matter) due to my carelessness.


Sadly, for some the safety course constitutes Infringement. For the more realistic among us, it constitutes Common Sense to have one.

And TOTALLY with you on the loss. Unimaginable.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Some states do require a course before you are issued / granted a CCW. AZ. used to be that way. Both me and my wife took the course which was comprised of an 8 hr. instructional block and a shooting qualification meet at an indoor range. 

This was shortly after AZ. offered a concealed carry permit. We were one of the first to take the class.

My father lives in WA. state. Unless things have changed, WA. does not require anything other than a clean record and a fee. 

I love my father dearly, but he's a perfect example of why some should not be allowed to carry period. Years ago, he went and got his CCW. I wasn't happy about it, nor were my two brothers, or my mother, who was still alive at the time. My father was adamant that it was his right and he was right. But, that didn't make any of us feel any better. 

Luckily, even though he had a permit and carried once in a while, nothing bad came of it. He kept a Beretta 21A in his vehicle, even though I had spoken to him about my feelings in regards to a .22LR not being a capable caliber for carry. Eventually as he grew older and dementia set in, I finally took care of the matter and removed all the guns from his home. 

For years, I was worried that he would do something and end up hurting or killing someone eventually. That's not a feeling that you like to have hanging over your head year after year.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SailDesign said:


> Sadly, for some the safety course constitutes Infringement. For the more realistic among us, it constitutes Common Sense to have one.
> 
> And TOTALLY with you on the loss. Unimaginable.


I really don't see it as that much different than getting a driver's license. Of course, others will see it differently and say so.

But then again, even with a driver's license, people still do dumb things and harm / kill others.

I think we should just ban / outlaw humans altogether.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Some states do require a course before you are issued / granted a CCW. AZ. used to be that way. Both me and my wife took the course which was comprised of an 8 hr. instructional block and a shooting qualification meet at an indoor range.
> 
> This was shortly after AZ. offered a concealed carry permit. We were one of the first to take the class.
> 
> ...


I hit the "Like" button, but it really means "Appreciate".

I feel this way about my mother's driving - one day I will have to take away her keys, and neither of us will enjoy it - but if it saves here or someone else, it will have been worth it many times over.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SailDesign said:


> I hit the "Like" button, but it really means "Appreciate".
> 
> I feel this way about my mother's driving - one day I will have to take away her keys, and neither of us will enjoy it - but if it saves here or someone else, it will have been worth it many times over.


I already addressed that issue with my father last summer. It took me about 6 months of doing so, but I did get it done.

He was a truck driver most of his life. He had been given the 1 million mile safe driving award from Teamsters, as well as many safe driving awards from companies he drove for.

He taught me to drive and did one Hell of a good job at it. I'm 60 and I've never been in an accident. Been diving since age 15 1/2.

That was one of the toughest things I've ever had to do in my life. Approach my dad and tell him it's time to give up driving. It was a bit of a fight, but not bad looking back on it.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

My brother lived with me for his last 20 years. Around the time he turned 90, his daughter and I agreed he wasn't cutting it as a driver. It wasn't easy, but not as hard as I thought it would be.

The dad who allowed his little kid to shoot himself - damn, that would be way harder to walk away from were I him.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

SailDesign said:


> Sadly, for some the safety course constitutes Infringement. For the more realistic among us, it constitutes Common Sense to have one.
> 
> And TOTALLY with you on the loss. Unimaginable.


Mandated gun safety courses are an infringement and yes some states require them but that's another story......

There have been many incidents where trained law enforcement officers had negligent/accidental(you pick the one you like) discharges...... They also happen to trained military personnel.......


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I believe Florida has a law of culpable negligence or something to that effect in matters such as these. So, I would imagine the dad is going to face some charges and perhaps jail time.

Under Section 784.05, Florida Statutes, the crime of Culpable Negligence consists of two elements: (1) the accused exposed a person to personal injury or inflicted personal injury on that person, and (2) the accused did so with “culpable negligence.” If the incident of Culpable Negligence involves a child gaining access to firearms (a third degree felony), it must also be shown that the accused stored or left the loaded firearm within the reach or easy access of the minor.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I believe that we all need preliminary training in gun safety. Parents just aren't doing their proper duties any more.
I think that everybody, without exception, should be required to take a gun safety course. It probably should be administered by the school system. Pass/fail would be OK.
After that, what you do is up to you. There certainly must be no requirement that you possess a gun at all. Neither need you take more focussed classes, if you don't want to.

If that were done, "constitutional carry" would be perfectly fine. Washington State's no-test carry license wouldn't bother me.

But _everybody_'s gotta take the safety class. No exceptions.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I believe that we all need preliminary training in gun safety. Parents just aren't doing their proper duties any more.
> I think that everybody, without exception, should be required to take a gun safety course. It probably should be administered by the school system. Pass/fail would be OK.
> After that, what you do is up to you. There certainly must be no requirement that you possess a gun at all. Neither need you take more focussed classes, if you don't want to.
> 
> ...


I could get on-board with a firearms safety class in school. It certainly wouldn't detract any from what they're teaching now, and it just might actually save a life or two down the road.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

We tried to interest our local school in the Eddie Eagle program, which is easily digested by grade-school kids, but the Superintendent wasn't having any.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> We tried to interest our local school in the Eddie Eagle program, which is easily digested by grade-school kids, but the Superintendent wasn't having any.


Which is a crying shame, because even liberal's kids need to know how to transport a gun safely to the "buy-back"


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SailDesign said:


> Which is a crying shame, because even liberal's kids need to know how to transport a gun safely to the "buy-back"


Most already do. It's one in the chamber and the action in ready position.


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## SailDesign (Jul 17, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Most already do. It's one in the chamber and the action in ready position.


Now, now - be nice...


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

SailDesign said:


> Now, now - be nice...


You should know by now, for me to do that, it's a real struggle.


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## shootbrownelk (May 18, 2014)

If I remember correctly, Dick Metcalf proposed mandatory a firearms training/safety course for all handgun owners. He was promptly chastised by readers of Guns & Ammo magazine, and soon thereafter he was fired. He was a columnist at G&A for years, but found out that you don't bite the hand that feeds you. In his defense however, he is a longtime resident of Illinois. That explains a lot!


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Hah. I just tried to come up with a simple carry-around certification that the handgun owner knows the muzzle from the trigger and what a cartridge looks like, plus the 'every gun is loaded' thing - a certification process that would fly in Vermont - and had to give it up. Nobody trusts _any_ state bureaucracy to keep it simple.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

It's sad. But that is the outcome of the new plastic world. No one is responsible. The government, the Industry, The Insurance, The Bank will be responsible. So just quit thinking don't worry at all. May we blame Bushmaster again or this thime Smith&Wesson? The Nany-State hammered in the peoples brain from Kindergaden on causing this insane issues. And if something happen we are all so upset and soo sorry but go ahead with a elitist dream that causes since 4000 Years blood and evil. 

My toddlers and my grandchildren don't have any access to any gun. Not in my home, not in the homes of my suns. It's a question of responsibility and not a question of political elitism and their new social plastic society renewal. That's is one of the price TAGs on this new liberal Paradise and it becomes ugly, that is only the beginning. Now one is responsible for their own action, that is the message and the people follow even with outcomes like this.

You are smart enough to know you are responsible for your actions or you become intellectual and you are not.
Like always there is no way of being a little pregnant. You are or you are not. Everyone have to decide if they want to belong to the intellectual Eloi or to belong to the Morlocks.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I have deliberately stayed away from this thread because my opinion differs from some of the people who have contributed and one of those has a propensity of infusing little digs or emotional bits with his posts. I prefer not to have to put up with this. I will only mention that my state's constitution says nothing about training required to possess or use a firearm and that's the one that matters to me.

I support my state's constitution and believe it to be correct in this matter. And while I am in full favor of people getting training in both the safe handling and use of their firearms as well as the legal aspects of this, I am not in favor of mandated training for what I believe to be good and valid reasons.

Those who choose to present their opposing positions in a respectful and civil manner also have both my respect and support.


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Some "intellectuals" may be smart enough.

On another note: There was a time -not so long ago - that families in these hills did not lock their guns away from the children. They made guns, and respect for their capabilities, part of the children's lives. Even after my oldest brother shot a hole in the stovepipe, his gun wasn't taken away. I little hide, sure.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> hillman
> Some "intellectuals" may be smart enough


Ha.. hillman U right 
U know there are a lot of so called intellectual out there. Real ones are aware of reality, theory and now to judge between. But sorry the therm intellectual is not protected and is now a accessory for some elitist which carring that fetish like others a badge on their forehead.
Not everyone that quotes Kant or Freud hat read them and even less had comprehended what they said.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> hillman
> On another note: There was a time -not so long ago - that families in these hills did not lock their guns away from the children. They made guns, and respect for their capabilities, part of the children's lives. Even after my oldest brother shot a hole in the stovepipe, his gun wasn't taken away. I little hide, sure.


Exactly my point. I grew up with guns. But we respected whats mine what yours. My children would touch my Magazines, my books, my stuff before asking me. It has something to do with responsibility. You have to be responsible and teach your children responsibility.
If a toddler can reach a loaded gun than the gun owner is a completely irresponsible person and should not own anything that has sharp edges, can travel faster than I can walk or can be swallowed besides Cheeseburgers and Coke.


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