# Looking around for my first handgun...



## IntegraGSR (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello everyone, I'm quite new here and REALLY new to handguns. I've never owned a firearm of my own, but I've fired several shotguns and rifles. I actually got somewhat decent at a Winchester 30'06 shooting target practice. BUT, I've never even fired a handgun. I'm gonna pick up a pistol soon, and I'm doing some checking around about what I should buy. This site has been awesome, I've learned a lot here without even posting. Thank you all for your wisdom. 

I've handled a few, but havn't actually fired any handguns. I'd like to go with a semi-auto. I'd like to have it primarily for home defense (I live in Baltimore suburbs, and crime seems to be creeping this way) I also just have a general affection for guns, so I'll spend a lot of time at the range. I really like the feel of the Glocks I've had my hands on, so my prime attention is on a G19. I'm figuring that starting with a 9mm is a good idea to get the feel for a handgun,(and for cheap ammo!) and I can always move up from there if I wish. 

To get to the point, I'm in the market for a good starter pistol, in the class of a G19. Something like a Walther P99, or Beretta PX4, or whatever else. What would be your recomednation if you were in my situation? I know, fire them all and see what you like, but that may not be practical. I know I liked the handfeel of the Glock, but what else should I be looking at? Thanks in advance for any help!


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## SigShooter127 (Apr 13, 2008)

sig p226 in 9mm...I just got my first handgun and I got a 226 in .40 and also got a .357 sig barell for it...but I wont suggest that because all sorts of people who have never even fired a .357 sig will come out of the woodwork and try to tell you everything wrong with it. But as far as handguns go (and the proofs in the pudding all you glock guys) that the best combat/defence pistol ever made is the 226, although a little pricey.


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## Joeywhat (Apr 17, 2008)

Have you considered a .22LR? Getting something chambered for that will certainly be lighter on your wallet, and will give you lots of good practice. I LOVE my Walther P22. Great gun, cheap to shoot, great as a learning tool.

For larger calibers, the Glocks are nice. You should also check out the Springfield XD lineup, as well as the Smith and Wesson M&P lineup. I own an XD 9mm subcompact (3" barrel) and I love it. Great gun to shoot, very accurate, feels great in your hands. I chose that over the Glock 26. I felt the grip safety of the XD was nice, and it just felt like a better gun. I've also fired a full size M&P .45 ACP which was also nice. Also had a very nice feel to it, and was easy to shoot.

All in all you can't go wrong with the Glock. It's one of the most popular auto-loaders for a reason...however do some research and try and test fire a few models before making a decision. You might find that another gun fits you better.

Also, when considering ammo prices, remember that a 500 round box of .22LR costs me about $18...whereas a 100 round box of 9mm costs the same. When I'm practicing my grip, stance and trigger control, I like to use my P22 for most of it. I can fire off 200 rounds and still be able to eat for the rest of the week.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

I would stay with the Glock 19 and shoot it often. There's plenty of time to buy more after you know a little more about what you want. Learn all you can while shooting it and enjoy it. Good luck.:smt033


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

You have done your research as any of the guns you mentioned (Glock, Walther, Beretta) are excellent weapons. The PX4 is a newer model so it doesn't have the track record of the 92FS, which is legendary. But I personally wouldn't worry about that since all guns, Glocks included, were new models at some point and the PX4 is , after all, made by Beretta and I've heard very good things about it in the Beretta forum here at HGF. You should look at the other mentions, particularly the XD and M&P lines. These are also highly regarded.

The .22LR is indeed a good caliber choice for many first time gun owners, but you stated this was primarily for HD so stick with the 9MM. And get a premium HD load for the house.

As I'm sure you have read around, handle and shoot as many as you can. You seem most acquainted with the Glock and like it's feel. Great, and if that's your choice, it's a fine firearm, but I would still suggest you at least pick-up and hold the others. 

And in regard to the Glock I would definitely say make sure you shoot one before you go plop down your cash, if for no other reason than you can. Every range I've been to, in Southern California anyway, has practically every model Glock for rent. Also, with all due respect, Glocks are not for everyone. The feel of the SA trigger is sort of a like it or don't like it type deal and some people, myself included, are not as accurate with Glocks as some other guns. Others are most accurate with them. But since they are so available, you should shoot it first.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.


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## kenn (Dec 13, 2007)

Welcome to the Forum from DFW Texas!

If you are one of the lucky people is actually really comfortable holding a Glock, then that's what I would get, and the G19 is an excellent pistol. The G17 is also a good choice. (personally, if I were to buy a Glock, the G23 would be my choice because I'd want one in 40 cal. 

The P99 is also a great choice - ergonomically, its the most comfortable of all the modern pistols (IMHO), and probably my next weapon. While I've heard the PX4 is awesome, I have yet to shoot one so I can't give you an answer either way.

Once you get your Glock, look into 22lr conversion kits if you want to save money. 22 ammo is alot cheaper. Unless you want a separate 22 of course. I have a Walther P22 and its as fun as Selma Hayak in a bounce house.


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## IntegraGSR (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice. I was browsing a gun shop after work today, and got my grubby mitts on several guns. I didn't rent any to fire, since I didn't really have the time and didn't feel like spending who-knows-what renting every 9mm I was considering. But my hands fell in love with the Glock 17. I first held the 19, but it was smaller than I expected. It felt fine, but my pinky didn't have space on the grip. Which may well be fine, but that stood out to me as something that could get annoying. The 17 fit like a glove. I also fondled a XD, a Sig (I forget the model, but all were 9mm), and a Beretta 92. I had no real qualms with any of them, except the Sig's price tag... But I'm thinking the 17 is in my near future. I'll probably go down tomorrow and warm up my credit card! (and hope my "economic stimulus" check shows up soon...)


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

Just thought I'd mention that if you otherwise really like the 19 then factory magazines are available with extended floor plates - this gives you and additional 2 rounds and a place for your pinky finger.

In any event, the next step is to rent one and shoot it. Let us know how it goes.


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## Joeywhat (Apr 17, 2008)

Get a Pearce grip extension. It will make TONS of difference.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Before you buy or very shortly after take a basic handgun safety course.


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## IntegraGSR (Nov 6, 2007)

The G17 will come home in 8-10 days.


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

Range report in 11-12 days please. :smt023


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## MrSigmaDOT40 (May 19, 2008)

I got mine for the same reasons.You cant beat a Sigma, look it up. I got my .40 Sigma for $380 in CA with a $50 rebate and extra 2 free clips (total 4). That promotion is off though, now its $30 OR 2 free clips. If you live outside of CA you can pick these up for $340, $299, $259, etc. If you want to look up the 9mm version the model number is SW9VE, Smith & Wesson Sigma SW9VE. Here is some pics of my .40. They come in all black, stanless slide green body (SW9VGE I think) and stainless/black like mine. SUPER RELIABLE, based off GLOCK design.


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## IntegraGSR (Nov 6, 2007)

It's home, pics coming! :mrgreen:

EDIT: Pics...


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## omulherin (Jun 1, 2008)

*Para NiteHawg?*

I am looking for a good small carry gun. I have been looking at the para NiteHawg and haven't heard much about them. Anyone have any advice or ideas on a high power high cap carry? I live in CA so we have our limit :smt076


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

omulherin said:


> I am looking for a good small carry gun. I have been looking at the para NiteHawg and haven't heard much about them. Anyone have any advice or ideas on a high power high cap carry? I live in CA so we have our limit :smt076


I'm not sure what you consider hi- cap because 10 is the most you can have, but you are probably best off to start your search here:

CA Certified Gun Roster


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## omulherin (Jun 1, 2008)

Thanks for the help on the right ones in California. What I meant by Hi-Cap in a carry is most I have seen are limited to between 6-9 +1 capacity. I currently own a Glock 21 .45 and love the .45 round. But am looking for something a lot smaller with similiar power. :smt1099


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## Wyatt (Jan 29, 2008)

The G39 is on the roster. Optional 10 round mag is available.


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## omulherin (Jun 1, 2008)

Thanks Wyatt for the help  How are the GAP cartridges? Pretty decent? I found a dealer down here that said he can get me any new glock for 471.00. Sounds like a good deal to me. What do you guys think?


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

i have used all glocks, hk , etc etc . please listen to me and have hundred percent perfect and problem free hand gun . please get stoger cougar in 9mm


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## Ram Rod (Jan 16, 2008)

I can get any new Glock here for $459+tax...bone stock hi-cap. If it were me, I'd stay away from the 45 GAP unless you want to spend your next fortune on ammo. If you want something hot, just go with the 10mm or better yet the .357 SIG cartridge. Just my .02¢


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

comments anyone?


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

zeeshan said:


> comments anyone?


On the Stoeger Cougar? Well, since you asked:

1. Heavy trigger with dated _crunchenticker_ action.
2. Safety/decocking dingus works backwards from normal human hand motion.
3. Extremely high bore axis.
4. Rotating barrel is pointless when the Browning tilting design is simpler and works fine.


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## Rhino (Jul 12, 2008)

omulherin said:


> Thanks for the help on the right ones in California. What I meant by Hi-Cap in a carry is most I have seen are limited to between 6-9 +1 capacity. I currently own a Glock 21 .45 and love the .45 round. But am looking for something a lot smaller with similiar power. :smt1099


I just looked at the California list and the FN FiveseveN is on it. if you're looking for high capacity, that 5.7x28 would be kinda cool. I've never fired it and the only thing I've actually read about it is that it sounds like a 9mm and kicks like a .22... I have no idea how reliable the weapon is but it seems like a neat pistol to add to anyones collection


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

The FN Five-seveN is a large pistol, at least the size of the Glock 21, with a longer barrel.

I will not start another debate about the efficacy of the 5.7mm round, however. :mrgreen:


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> On the Stoeger Cougar? Well, since you asked:
> 
> 1. Heavy trigger with dated _crunchenticker_ action.
> 2. Safety/decocking dingus works backwards from normal human hand motion.
> ...


Sir, please explain crunchenticker action? and please tell how it is bad?
Secondly, please explain what do you mean by high bore axis? and how is it not good?


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> On the Stoeger Cougar? Well, since you asked:
> 
> 1. Heavy trigger with dated _crunchenticker_ action.
> 2. Safety/decocking dingus works backwards from normal human hand motion.
> ...


please explain 1 and 3?


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

_Crunchenticker_ is Jeff Cooper's term for a DA/SA auto. The first double-action shot goes _crunch_, and then the gun reverts to single-action and goes _tick_. Most people find a _crunchenticker_ harder to shoot fast and well than a gun with a consistent trigger, like a 1911, Glock, XD, M&P, etc. This is also why we see things like the SIG DAK trigger and the HK LEM.

Bore axis refers to the height of the centerline of the barrel above the shooting hand. A high bore axis generally makes the muzzle flip more (because it has more mechanical leverage), slowing the rate of accurate shooting, while a low bore axis enhances fast shooting by minimizing muzzle flip.


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> _Crunchenticker_ is Jeff Cooper's term for a DA/SA auto. The first double-action shot goes _crunch_, and then the gun reverts to single-action and goes _tick_. Most people find a _crunchenticker_ harder to shoot fast and well than a gun with a consistent trigger, like a 1911, Glock, XD, M&P, etc. This is also why we see things like the SIG DAK trigger and the HK LEM.
> 
> Bore axis refers to the height of the centerline of the barrel above the shooting hand. A high bore axis generally makes the muzzle flip more (because it has more mechanical leverage), slowing the rate of accurate shooting, while a low bore axis enhances fast shooting by minimizing muzzle flip.


Sir, iam highly obliged by your kind and informative reply. Please explain Sig DAK action and HK LEM ?

Secondly, can u please look into my problem and advise me for my new handgun accordingly 
have done research into the problem , why the ejected catridges hit my face . its because of bigger ejection ports on glock and hk handguns. the ejection port extends upwards and some rounds are not ejected sideways but upward and backward to the face. what do you think?

plus, i am right handed but my dominant eye is left so gun is right in front of my face so, the probability of ejected catridge hittin my face is higher compared to shooters with right dominant eye.

Currently i am using STOEGER COUGAR 9mm(it is same copy of Brettas COUGA R8000). I have fired nearly 7000 rounds from it without ant problem at all( I consider it as perfect gun except sights are not very good for fast acquistion of target). It has ejection port to the right only and not upwards like glock or hk etc, thatswhy the ejected carteridge never goes upwards and backwars on my face or torso.

Anyways, i want to switch to .45 auto .
can you please guide me in choosing the a handgun in .45 auto with following chracteristics?

1. extreamely reliable and very durable.

2. polygonal barreling, lowest bore axis possible and any other features for highest accuracy.

3. ejection port to the right (not extended upwards).

4. decocker and manual safety(with safety on the pin should be blocked and not just the trigger).

5. fast target accquisition sights ( eg 3 dots or glock type sights or straight eight sights, and perferrably night sights to glow in dark).

6. medium or just compact size for concealed carry( but in no way the compactness should compromise the reliability and durability factor. meaning, the size factor can be compromised but not the reliability and long service life factor of the gun).

7. smoothest and lightest trigger pull possible as in my experience trigger pull adds considerably to acccuracy.

8. light weight if possible (but not at the stake of any other traits mentioned above).

9. ejected carteridge should not hit my face

10. The gun should not be needed to be cocked for getting locked(meaning the gun should have manual safety, and safety could be activated regardless the hammer is cocked or not unlike cz9mm).

your help will be very much appreciated,

zeeshan

[email protected]


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## Mosquito (Mar 11, 2008)

Zeeshan, why do you post the same question on every thread you participate in. Seriously, stop being an idiot.


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

i am sorry. i am just desperate for help. my idea for posting my question was to find some one at some thread, who can help me. but i am sorry mosquito , if you think i am doing wrong i will refrain from this . i will not do it again.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Zeeshan,

At the moment you have at least three threads going asking pretty much the same questions over and over. I am very confused about a few things. In one thread you ask someone to explain high bore axis, and in another you explain that a high bore axis is a problem. 

I mean no disrespect to you but it seems that you are simply reading stuff on the Internet and use this as your only source of handgun knowledge. May I ask what your background is? What actual, hands-on training do you have with regards to handguns? Have you serve in an armed service? Have you taken a handgun course? 

It really sounds like you are trying to find a hardware solution to a software problem. By this I mean you want to find a new gun to make you shoot better when training is most likely what is needed.

I am a retired police officer and law enforcement firearms instructor and I saw this all the time. A lot of new officers thought they had it all figured out and did not like to get advice on their shooting style. 

I have noticed that when some here ask you about your stance, grip etc. your reply is that they are perfect? How do you know that?

Please let us try to help you out. This means that you need to give an honest answer to OUR questions and not just ask the same of YOUR questions over and over.

Based on what I have read so far, I am pretty sure a good instructor could fix your shooting issues in a few hours. I think you should spend your money on a handgun class rather than a custom made handgun.

Good luck.


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Zeeshan,
> 
> At the moment you have at least three threads going asking pretty much the same questions over and over. I am very confused about a few things. In one thread you ask someone to explain high bore axis, and in another you explain that a high bore axis is a problem.
> 
> ...


sir, thanks for your concern and honest comments. sir, the reason i have been talking about same problem on 3 threads is that i am new on the forum and i honestly thought that by talking about my problem on different threads will allow me to communicate with more people.

but now i have realized that gentlemen like mosquito dont like it. as he and you are my seniors , i respect your comments. so , in future i will never talk about same thing/ problem on more than one thread. but please ignore my ignorance for these three threads as i am gaining lotz of good knowledge.

secondly, i bought two glock17 and returned both of them one after another as out of 50 ejected rounds atleast five hit my face or torso.

then i bought cz 9mm . 1000 rounds and no problems.

then bought taurus 609ti (9mm). taurus was most accurte, smoothest trigger but had one problem. after firing the rail did not settle back full causing missfire. so i returned it. but i had best groups of my life with that 609 taurus and no issues of ejected shells hitting my face with it.

then, i bought HK usp compact in 9mm. threw almost 5 out of 100 ejected carteridges at my face.

so, i noticed the ejection ports of bot HK and Glock and thaout port placement might be the reason.

anyways, i am still a novice. so, please guide me as i have used same technique, grip and stance with all of them.

thirdly, a nice gentleman on this forum told me the importance of high or low bore axis and i gained tha knowledge. then, i used that knowledge by shooting my stoger cougar and hkusp compact and realized that he was so right. so, i added low bore axis trait of the gun i am looking for in .45 acp(as i want to switch .45 auto from 9mm).

lastly , i apologise to all my seniors and friends who might have been offended by my inquisitve mind and lack of good expression as english is not my mother tongue.

thanks.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Several people, including me, have asked. I'll ask again: what shooting stance are you using? Weaver? Chapman? Isosceles? Modern Isosceles? FBI Squat? Hip pointshooting?


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Zeeshan,

You have not offended me and how in the world do you know if I am your senior? That really does not matter anyway. I think most of us really want to help you but I, for one, am getting confused about which thread is which since you seem to cut and paste the same stuff in all of them.

Anyway, forget all that and let's start over.

Why don't you start a thread in this forum (New to Handguns) and explain to us what your shooting background is, what type of stance you use, explain your grip etc. Like I, and others, have pointed out, it really does not seem to be a problem with the gun but rather with how you use it.

I bet if you pick a gun you like because it fits your hand etc. we can help you learn how to shoot it better. 

So you first assignment is to pick one gun and caliber, and we go from there. Do yourself a favor and do not worry about stuff like the bore axis and ejection ports etc. If you are a novice, those sorts of details will just get in the way.

What handguns do you own right now? Which one do you prefer to shoot? Why do you want to switch from 9mm to .45ACP?


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Several people, including me, have asked. I'll ask again: what shooting stance are you using? Weaver? Chapman? Isosceles? Modern Isosceles? FBI Squat? Hip pointshooting?


weaver


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Zeeshan,
> 
> You have not offended me and how in the world do you know if I am your senior? That really does not matter anyway. I think most of us really want to help you but I, for one, am getting confused about which thread is which since you seem to cut and paste the same stuff in all of them.
> 
> ...


stance = weaver
currently using stoeger cougar 9mm. no problems, but sights are very small and its hard to accquire target. i am from pakistan and cant get extra sights for the gun

i am switching from 9mm to .45 because i want to have maximum one shot stopping power.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Now we are getting somewhere.

I just found this sight: http://www.corneredcat.com/Basics/stance.aspx

I think it does a great job explaining the different stances. I suggest you try the modified Weaver (AKA the Chapman). That is what I used with my students and still use today when I work with people learning to shoot.

This website even addresses cross-dominance, something I seem to remember you mentioned in a prior post.

The sights should not be that big of a deal if you are shooting combat type stuff since you really will not use them much in real life. Now, if you are doing real target type shooting, then it might be an issue.

I somehow knew you were going to say that you want "stopping power." There is no such thing when it comes to handguns. If you want to really stop someone or something, get a shotgun and load it with buckshot or slugs. Or get a rifle.

Caliber is a secondary concern if you can hit what you aim at. Since you are still learning to shoot, I recommend you stick with the 9mm. If you really feel like you must have a .45, worry about whihc to get later on.

My advice is to shoot the Cougar as much as you can and work on the basics. Start with your stance. Try the modified Weaver and make sure to extend your strong side arm all the way. Also, make sure you check your grip too.

Do a little research and find some photos on the web of the correct grip. Once you have that down, try this: hold your weapon in your strong hand and squeeze hard enough that the weapon starts to shake. Then ease up just enought that it stops shaking. That is how firm you want to grip your weapon. Make sure you use your support hand correctly and wrap it around the strong hand, not under it.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Your grip should look something like this. This is from the same sight as mentioned above. There is a lot of great, basic stuff on that site. Check out the section on grip.

http://www.corneredcat.com/Basics/grip.aspx


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Is this what your sights look like? If so, I don't think you can do much better than that. A nice three dot set up like that is very easy to see and use in my opinion.


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

zeeshan said:


> stance = weaver
> currently using stoeger cougar 9mm. no problems, but sights are very small and its hard to accquire target. i am from pakistan and cant get extra sights for the gun
> 
> i am switching from 9mm to .45 because i want to have maximum one shot stopping power.


I have a Stoeger Cougar 9mm and I think the sites are nice. As far as _one shot_ stopping power, that can be achieved with a .380 or even less if you can shoot it accurately. Don't simply go by caliber, go with what YOU shoot best. A bad guy with 4 9mm shots in his chest is gonna go down a lot faster than a bad guy with 4 missed .45 shots. Just my .02

-Jeff-


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Now we are getting somewhere.
> 
> I just found this sight: http://www.corneredcat.com/Basics/stance.aspx
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip. i have today used modified weaver and i feel i am shooting better . well, i believe if a person is training for the self defense , he should not over rule any scenario. i believe, in any case (self defense) one should have gun with better sights. what do you think?


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

I am glad that some of this advice may help you. Like I said, the sights on your gun, unless they are not like the ones in the picture, are about as good as they get. I am not sure what to tell you. I am surprised you have trouble seeing them.


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> I am glad that some of this advice may help you. Like I said, the sights on your gun, unless they are not like the ones in the picture, are about as good as they get. I am not sure what to tell you. I am surprised you have trouble seeing them.


sir, have u seen sights on taurus 619 ? well they are also three dot. but the three dot sights on my stoeger cougar are some how different from the taurus 619.stoeger sights are slightly smaller than the sights you showed on the pic and three dot sights of taurus 619. the front sight is thinner, and there is bigger gap btween the left and right of front sight in the aligned position. this makes it hard to settle the front sight between the rear sight evenly.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the keys with sights is that there is enough daylight on both sides of the front sight to make it obvious at speed. A cramped sight picture is hard to see properly when shooting fast.

Regarding "stopping power," if one is limited to ball ammo - as one may be in Pakistan - I think a .45 is indeed a better choice. I do not know what availability of HPs exists in Pakistan. It may be slim.

That said, if I found myself in Pakistan, I'd carry an AK. :mrgreen:


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Regarding your sights; according the Stoeger website the sights in the picture are what should be on your Cougar. 

In other words, the picture is of the sights on a Cougar. I am wondering why yours would be different. 

Anyway, why is it not possible to buy different sights in Pakistan?


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> One of the keys with sights is that there is enough daylight on both sides of the front sight to make it obvious at speed. A cramped sight picture is hard to see properly when shooting fast.
> 
> Regarding "stopping power," if one is limited to ball ammo - as one may be in Pakistan - I think a .45 is indeed a better choice. I do not know what availability of HPs exists in Pakistan. It may be slim.
> 
> That said, if I found myself in Pakistan, I'd carry an AK. :mrgreen:


dont you think that target is place above the aligned sights and not in front?


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

zeeshan said:


> dont you think that target is place above the aligned sights and not in front?


Not if you're shooting at people.


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Regarding your sights; according the Stoeger website the sights in the picture are what should be on your Cougar.
> 
> In other words, the picture is of the sights on a Cougar. I am wondering why yours would be different.
> 
> Anyway, why is it not possible to buy different sights in Pakistan?


accessories option is very limited here. the handgun option is very limited because most of guns from usa or europe are only smuggled here because no european or american manufacturer sells guns to pakistan

we civilians dont have good guns to protect ourselves and our families. do you think its fair ?


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Not if you're shooting at people.


can you please explain whats the difference and why?


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

In a fight you simply paste the front sight over the guy's chest and press the trigger. There's no careful deliberation, as when shooting a nice nonthreatening bullseye target. There is not time to judge, "Geez, my sights are set for 4 inches above point of aim at 25 yards, so I will hold at the bottom of the circle." 

Lay the sights on the guy and shoot him to the ground.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Zeeshan,

You already gave the impression that your Stoeger is one of your favored guns and you even recommended it to somebody on another thread here but now it seems that you're complaining about it. Just point the darn thing and shoot and be prepared to fire every round in the magazine if necessary and to reload if necessary.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Zeeshan,

I am still a little confused and now of the opinion that your posts are a tad bit suspect.

As *unpecador* pointed out, you are critical of the Cougar in some posts and in another you recommend it as the only choice.

Also, you write that gun laws are very restrictive in Pakistan but you have told us about at least five different weapons you have owned and returned.

Are you telling me that you are buying illegally obtained firearms? Based on what you write and how often you post, it sounds like you run out and buy new guns on a regular basis and then somehow get to try them out right away.

You must be very wealthy if you can trade firearms and shoot them on such a regular basis in a country where, according to you, they are hard to get due to restrictions on the importation of most makes.

I am not calling you a troll, but with all due respect, your posts do not paint an altogether believable picture.

If I am wrong, I do apologize, and of course you have no obligation to dispute any of this with any background or information about yourself. However, I for one will not reply to your posts any longer until you convince me that you are on the level.


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## zeeshan (Jul 13, 2008)

1. i am not fimiliar with the expression "tad bit suspect".what does it mean?
secondly, i am always getting the feeling of comtempt , skeptism, and aversion from some of the guys on this thread. i feel like the victim of witch hunt and discrimination.

2. yes, i recommend stoeger subjectively, where i feel i need to advice any person who is being advised the gun , i feel is not superior to stoeger. 
and i criticise stoeger because i feel that there must a handgun out there with better specs.i just express what i feel with all my honesty.

3.i get a few firearms , paying thrice what i should be really paying from them( gun dealers have only very little number of imported guns left with them as exports from europe and usa to pakistan have been stopped for quite some time now).

you guys have no i dea how much search to locate a fire arms, which is just like an antiqque here and how much i have to pay my hard earned money to get them.
i am sorry but i am as sensitive as any one of u guys. i am a human being just like you guys. i have passion for good handguns like you guys. but, unlike you guys , i am deprieved of right to fullfill my passion according to my desire.

i am hurt, and i have full freadom of expresion. this is my birth right and i believe its the birth right of every man. see all my threads and posts on this forum. not once i have criticised or made any skeptic or sarcastic remark to any person yet, i had to faced full barrage of it. i still respect you guys as in our culture , we respect anyone who teaches anything or gives any knowledge. i am thankfull to you for you gave me knowledge.

i am hurt because rather than empathy i faced skeptism, sarcism, and many other things for which i am ignorant of the right expression or words to express them.

sir, i am not a criminal. ia m not into any sort of illegal activities. i am as law abiding citizen like any one of you guys. you know people its just now i have felt the essence and soul of late martin luther kings famous "i have a dream" speech. today, i know how he must have felt. i am happy that you are having good things around you in yor respective countries. one day , my country will also prosper and develop. there are never constant highs or lows in the world .its the biggest lesson of history. 

by saying all that i dont demand any pity but just common respect. and i will never ask anyone to convince me that he or she is credible enough to deserve my audience/company. i believe everyone should be respected and honored.

i speak my heart out . yes, i was expecting the descency of empathy about how we the pakistanis are denied to protect ourselves and our families by arms export restriction. yes, i was expecting some support and appreciation for my enthusiasm for handguns , which i used to believe is also a passion of my respected fellow members in this forum. 

God bless you all
zeeshan(from pakistan)


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I can take no more.


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