# LEO's Giving up P99's For Glocks



## Ron (Oct 2, 2006)

I was on another forum and a poster started a thread inquiring about whether they should get a glock or P99. A couple of LEO's blasted the P99, stating that a number of PD's had abandoned the P99 in favor of Glocks at the insistence of the LEO's because they found the P99 to be "crappy." Comments?

Ron


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## uncut (May 6, 2006)

FWIW..... some LEOs get less shooting time than I do .... What does it matter what they say..... Walther supplied over 40.000 P99's to on German state and H&K deliverd a certain amount (sorry don't know the #'s) of P2000's to another ... now there is aleardy over 7000 P30's issued to German customs....

I don't get why people put so much weight into what a LEO carries.... 
Sig, HK and Walther is what most use in Europe.... Glock is just yet some other company making big money since *most* americans rather have quantity than quality... 
yea it was poor trigger control.... but I swear that DEA agent that shoot himself in the foot infront of a classroom full of kids would had holstered a P99 without that gun going bang....

ok I am done ranting... Glocks are nothing special and some LEO saying P99's are crappy is just a old wifes tail IMHO.... fwiw they might not ever handeled one let alone shot one.....


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I kinda agree w/ Uncut - Not all LEOs know everything. If I was an LEO, I wouldn't want a Glock. But, everyone has their own opinion.

I am one of the rare few who would rather have a P99 over a 1911. Does that make all the 1911 fans wrong? No. Its just preference.


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> I am one of the rare few who would rather have a P99 over a 1911. Does that make all the 1911 fans wrong? No. Its just preference.


Me too :mrgreen:

I think too that politics may come into play - locally we have a guy that's a Glock dealer, and does heavy LE sales (his retail prices and service for regular Joes like me suck BTW).. and I'd suspect that it may have to do with the approved list of guns that the LE dept. signs off on, and per unit cost. This dealer sells Glocks to LE at costs way below retail, pretty much wholesale, and still cuts a good profit off of it. Point is, often times it may come down to more than which is the superior firearm.

If it's open ended for the LE officer and he _personally_ chooses a Glock over the P99 - to each his or her own.

Either way, just means a better chance of slightly used P99s showing up at CDNN!


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## dood (Jan 15, 2007)

LEO's tend to pick what the other people in their department pick (when they're fresh out of the academy). The Glock thing is almost out of indoctrination.

I think I read recently that something like 60% of firing accidents in LE involve Glocks...but then part of that could easily be because of the prevalence of Glocks in LE.

I don't know what the break-down is here...I suppose it's a good excuse to go talk to the rangemaster...


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## Vom Kriege (May 5, 2006)

A department near me switched from Glocks to the S&W version of the 99 and turned right around and switched from the 99 to the S&W M&P.

I can't comment to the functionality of the 99, but I can say that it does not fit my hand at all and that I would be miserable if forced to carry it.

However, for those that enjoy it, have at it.


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## jenglish (Dec 29, 2006)

I personally do not bother myself with what LE Agencies or LEOs carry. The fact is that some do not get a choose and most comes down to how much the pistol will cost the department. For instance, the local city police are issued Glock 19's only, they have no choice. 

Then there are the LEOs that do not know what they are speaking about. I was talking to a veteran officer in a local gun shop about pistols and I mentioned the P99. He started laughing and tell me about how Glock is so far superior than the P99. He was telling me how the last P99 he shot would not group worth a $h!t. The store clerk brought out my new Galco (for my P99) and I took out my P99, made it safe and checked the fit of the new Galco. This is when the officier said, "now that is what I am talking about! Is that one of the new Sig Saur's???"

I kid you not. He had no idea what a P99 was let alone looked like (aka full of $h!t). It got to the point that when a local SWAT instructor was bashing the P99 in every class he taught, the Drug Task Force of his department (which are the only ones allowed to carry a non-Glock) challeged him to a competion. You see the Drug Task Force all carry P99's! The officiers that went up against the DTF officiers included the SWAT instructor. DTF won by a huge margin!

Most LEO that I know, know very little about firearms that they are not issued.


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## RickJZ (Jan 5, 2007)

uncut said:


> I don't get why people put so much weight into what a LEO carries....
> Sig, HK and Walther is what most use in Europe.... Glock is just yet some other company making big money since *most* americans rather have quantity than quality...
> yea it was poor trigger control.... but I swear that DEA agent that shoot himself in the foot infront of a classroom full of kids would had holstered a P99 without that gun going bang....
> +1


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## Ron (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks guys for your comments. I hope that you all understand that I have a new P99c which I love, so was very interested in what the response of this Forum would be to that other thread.

Ron


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## RyanSBHF (May 28, 2006)

In Canada the LEO's are replacing the Glock with P99's:

In the 1990s, the majority of law enforcement agencies of Canada began wearing bulletproof vests and carrying Glock semi-automatic handguns in the .40 S&W caliber cartridge. The most widely used weapon is the German Walther P99 with hollow-point 9mm caliber ammunition. These firearms, replaced the aging .38 Special revolver. Another significant number of agencies have began to use the Sig Sauer semi-automatic handgun in the .40 S&W caliber. A Police cruiser might carry a shotgun capable of firing a variety of shotgun shells including the less-lethal flexible baton round and rubber bullets. Other less-lethal weapons carried would include the Taser, pepper spray and a baton. In addition, they would have on their person handcuffs, a flashlight, a walkie-talkie and a notebook.

http://www.answers.com/topic/policing-in-canada


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## Hevchev50 (Dec 24, 2006)

The Glock is an older design, but still a good design of excellent quality. It's just that the P99 is still probably considered (even though it's been imported here for close to ten years) an "upstart" to many LEO's and doesn't have the longevity record as the Glock. But that still is no excuse for dissing a great pistol for all intents and purposes has proven itself in the police forces of Canada and Europe. I read an article sometime ago about an impromptu pistol comparison performed at Quantico shortly after World War II where the 1911 A1 was put into a side by side comparison with a Walther P-38 by a group of American combat veterans and it was decided that the 1911 was superior in respect to accuracy and effectiveness over the Walther. Then somebody invited some German ex-storm troopers from overseas to a later match to compete and they turned out to be equivelant with the P-38 in respect to accuracy and effectiveness at the very least. You can't base a decision on one pistol or another if you haven't tried it or used it extensively.


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## duck! (Jan 6, 2007)

I would say that a P99 is really an improved Glock. Polymer framed, tenifer treated, striker fired, with an almost identical (and improved) take-down slide release. The AS trigger  in SA mode is almost identical (and improved) compared to the Glock trigger plus you get a decocker and DA mode if you want it. If you like a Glock, how can you not LOVE a P99. Oh, and the P99 is more accurate.


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## Grimjack (Dec 30, 2006)

I agree with Duck's statement. The P99 to me is a Glock with better ergonomics.
Most of the of the local small departments carry Glocks, and the San Antonio Police department carries them. In the case of the SAPD, I believe that the Glock is the only gun authorized to be carried. The smaller departments tend to follow suit because being an LEO they get the Glocks at a significant discount. Considering the fact that many of them have to purchase their own guns and don't get paid jack, the cheaper gun is going to win.
Most cops spend as little time at the range as possible, and I would say that 75% of them are only fair to poor shooters. I base this off of taking part in the local sheriff's departments annual pistol contest, which is open to the public. I have no problem outshooting most of the LEO's; the winners usually are civilian gun enthusiasts who shoot as a hobby. In fact, the best LEO shooters are usually older guys who are still toting double action revolvers. I think this has to do with fact that if an LEO wants practice beyonfd the annual recertification (which I'm not even certain it is annual), he has to buy his own ammo. And finally, most LEO's I've talked to are just not 'gun guys'. To them, guns are just another tool, like a pair of handcuffs. Them seem to get more excited about having new laptop computers in their cars than a new gun.
Just my .02 worth.


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## dood (Jan 15, 2007)

Grimjack said:


> And finally, most LEO's I've talked to are just not 'gun guys'. To them, guns are just another tool, like a pair of handcuffs. Them seem to get more excited about having new laptop computers in their cars than a new gun.
> Just my .02 worth.


This has been my experience as well...working in a PD, I figured I'd find a whole bunch of guys to "geek out" with on guns...but most of them just kind of look at me funny. Most of them don't like carrying off-duty, and many I know just leave their firearm in the trunk of their car.

The Lt. that runs our group keeps his pistol in a fanny pack in his desk, and throws it in his glove box when he travels.


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## merc308 (Nov 23, 2006)

Shipwreck

I am with you, I never believed I would rather carry a P99 than my 1911 but alas
that has come to pass. I still shoot some competition with the 1911 but I carry the P99 exclusively.

Unfortunately most Police officers are forced to carry what their department tells them. And the bean counters and legal eagles tell them to use Glocks like everyone else as it is a point to make if you have to..in a courtroom.

I've noticed one thing and I wonder if you guys have the same observation, lots of people rag the P99, but I've noticed that a large percentage of them have never fired one. It's been rare for me to find someone who has fired one at the range and doesn't like it.

Several people I work with have tried mine and are now proud P99 owners themselves.

Von K

You are the first person I've ever heard in my life say the Walther doesn't fit their hands. with the extra pieces to make the grip different sizes I would say it fits more peoples hands just by offering three combinations,


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## jenglish (Dec 29, 2006)

merc308 said:


> I've noticed one thing and I wonder if you guys have the same observation, lots of people rag the P99, but I've noticed that a large percentage of them have never fired one.


This is very true from my experience also.


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## awall (Jun 15, 2006)

In the late 90's I was a Mayor in a small town. Our department did not issue the LEO's their weapons but we would let them purchase one through the city. The only reason that Glocks were recomended over anything else is we could buy them direct for $290.00. I believe that is the only reason Glocks are so popular with LEO's. When a young recruit goes to the academy and the only thing he shoots there is a Glock, they would naturally prefer a Glock over anything else. Myself, I learned on the 1911 and thought it was the best thing going but I too carry a P99 exclusivly now. Just my .02 cents worth.


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## SigZagger (Aug 16, 2006)

> FWIW..... some LEOs get less shooting time than I do .... What does it matter what they say.....


As a former LEO let me address that comment. Contrary to what many "civilian gun owners" believe, cops are not gun experts. The vast majority could care less what make, model gun is issued to them. It is just another tool of the trade. Yes, many private gun owners are more knowledgable on the different brands and many brag (so they claim) on internet gun forums about there expertise. Did the officers know anything about the Walther P99 model in question? Probably not. One thing I've learned about gun forums. I read more "I know everything about guns" from private owners than I read about cops bragging about the sidearms they carry. Opinions: it's what keeps everything afloat.


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## jenglish (Dec 29, 2006)

SigZagger said:


> As a former LEO let me address that comment. Contrary to what many "civilian gun owners" believe, cops are not gun experts. The vast majority could care less what make, model gun is issued to them. It is just another tool of the trade. Yes, many private gun owners are more knowledgable on the different brands and many brag (so they claim) on internet gun forums about there expertise. Did the officers know anything about the Walther P99 model in question? Probably not. One thing I've learned about gun forums. I read more "I know everything about guns" from private owners than I read about cops bragging about the sidearms they carry. Opinions: it's what keeps everything afloat.


I for one do not comment on that which I am not knowledgeable. That is why I do not comment on every thread on the board. I base my replys and threads on my experience not what I read on the internet and not from hear say. I do not believe that there is such a creature as an expert, that is also how I feel about martial artists that call themselves master or grandmaster.

Private citizens, from my wanderings, are more knowledgeable about firearms than most of the LEO that I know and call friends. The problem I have found when chatting shop with local LEOs, is that many (atleast in my area) feel that because they are LE they are experts or have superior knowledge. They listen to what other LEOs say and take it as gospel. I think that to be a problem no matter if you are LEO or a civilian.


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## aurora (Jan 21, 2007)

I think cops are biased towards glocks cause thats what they have peddled to them 24/7" I for one think glocks are great and walthers are great. I went with walther because the gun fits my hand, conceals, works and has the features I want for ccw better than a compact glock does in my opinion. If I were a police officer I would carry My full size glock 21 with 14 rounds of .45 ammo. Its impossible to conceal and has big time firepower. I really think most cops think of there sidearms as a form of force projection. My dad is a retired cop and we have had this conversation before and we seem to agree on that. I also dont put much stock in what people say about how bad some other guys gun is, get what works for you and you only.


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## DonGlock26 (Jan 31, 2007)

I know it's an old thread, but here it goes.

As a LEO, Glock/Sig Armor, Firearms range master:

I think the P-99 may have a bad rep because of the New Jersey/SW-99 debacle. They ended up going with Sigs after making S&W change the SW-99to fit their requirements. It was FUBAR, if I remember correctly. Cops use the "internets" to and many fall prey to myths and half truths. We are humans, after all.


Police Depts. certainly consider price, but they also have to consider finding a pistol that will work with alot of people. The advantage to considering an LEO pistol is that it has been tested to military standards, and with that many pistols in use, any problems will show themselves. G-22's are having a problem with reliability with a tac light mounted. I've seen Sigs break trigger bar springs(not good-BTW) and pins. For me, Glocks have been far more trouble free because they are simple. They have less pins, springs, and no grip screws. This means less headaches for guys like me.


Glocks are simple tools, but for life and death situations, simple is better. I like that I can work on my own Glocks with only a punch. I agree that the P-99 is like a more refined Glock, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.


I'd like to buy one soon, but I am being watched closely by "the boss". A D-Day-like deception plan is needed. As luck would have it, all tactical black pistols are my "glock".:smt083


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

merc308 said:


> I've noticed one thing and I wonder if you guys have the same observation, lots of people rag the P99, but I've noticed that a large percentage of them have never fired one. It's been rare for me to find someone who has fired one at the range and doesn't like it.


+2. I've noticed long ago that more than any other "area of enthusiasm", that the firearm crowd has a lot of what I call "parrots". These are people who merely repeat what others say or write, and have no actual experience of what they speak. I sometimes leave a gunshop wishing that I had worn rubber boots....

PhilR.


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## Dave James (May 15, 2007)

As a former cop who served on a transition team and helped chose our pistols,let me say,,really who cares what we carry,but mandate in my X department we had to consider the small handed women and men and the "LCD" type of cop, 

The 99 in my area isn't issued to any one but on the list as off duty for several,,all problems associated with them have been the Smith & Wesson versions, none of the Walther's, or 45acp S&W's.

Chose what fits you and you will go out and practice with.


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## SigZagger (Aug 16, 2006)

PhilR. said:


> +2. I've noticed long ago that more than any other "area of enthusiasm", that the firearm crowd has a lot of what I call "parrots". These are people who merely repeat what others say or write, and have no actual experience of what they speak. I sometimes leave a gunshop wishing that I had worn rubber boots....
> 
> PhilR.


Amen to that statement. :smt023 When I worked the PD I never knew one officer who could care less what brand was issued to him, except for caliber size. I've said this over and over, cops are not gun experts and 98% will admit it. The other 2%, we call rookie "warriors". They are the scary ones. On the other hand, it appears (to me) many private citizens know everything about the "best" brand and the "best" caliber to kill someone, etc. Can one really know that from standing still in a booth, shooting holes in a paper target at the range? I've noticed many of those comments were coming from guys in their early 20's. Wow, now that's many years of expertise speaking. Many citizens are very well versed on firearms. But I agree as well, many simply repeat what they read on forums or see in the marketing media. Having said that, I am not a gun expert. Just someone who has witnessed far too many shootings to know even a crappy POS .22 handgun can put a human six feet underground. And 3-4 .45 rounds from a brand name firearm cannot stop a human. Regarding the P99 question, I'm not sure any PD's in America carries a Walther product. I'd have no problem carrying mine, nor any other brand my department deemed satisfactory for duty carry.


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## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

Ron said:


> I was on another forum and a poster started a thread inquiring about whether they should get a glock or P99. A couple of LEO's blasted the P99, stating that a number of PD's had abandoned the P99 in favor of Glocks at the insistence of the LEO's because they found the P99 to be "crappy." Comments?
> 
> Ron


Carried a first gen 17, lousy grip, mag base came off on call and dumped bullets on ground, and in training went full auto on by itself. I went to a Sig P220
after that, most that favored the Glock was because having to buy your own duty weapon they were dirt cheap, I think in those days earky 1990 they were maybe $300 vs 5 or 6 for the sig, or my prized all time favorite i paid $1100 for a HK P7 M13. Lastly i take any Walther over a Glock


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## SSGN_Doc (Mar 12, 2020)

Digging all the way back to 2007 to push the Glock hate. I think we get it that you, Sir do not like Glocks. 

I like my P99AS maybe a bit more than my Glocks. But that is largely because I prefer DA/SA for carry. 
I think for LE departments they look at a lot of factors that the general gun enthusiast or citizen gun owner does not have to factor in. Initial equipping cost for multiple officers. Training and qualification costs and time. (DA/SA and decocker use can take more time to teach, learn and master. Then if equipped with a paddlestyle mag release, retraining officers who are used to push button mag releases.). Armorer training and parts cost for department weapons.

So dollars do drive a lot for departmental selection.

LEO criticism of the P99 probably comes largely from S&Ws poor execution of a S&W contracted version of the P99 to a degree that Walther went back to exclusivel6 making the P99AS in Ulm again. (except the Poles seem to make a very solid Walther contracted version which has a solid reputation.). Then S&W developed the M&P and went to pushing that for agency sales.


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## ebbiv (9 mo ago)

SSGN_Doc said:


> Digging all the way back to 2007 to push the Glock hate. I think we get it that you, Sir do not like Glocks.
> 
> I like my P99AS maybe a bit more than my Glocks. But that is largely because I prefer DA/SA for carry.
> I think for LE departments they look at a lot of factors that the general gun enthusiast or citizen gun owner does not have to factor in. Initial equipping cost for multiple officers. Training and qualification costs and time. (DA/SA and decocker use can take more time to teach, learn and master. Then if equipped with a paddlestyle mag release, retraining officers who are used to push button mag releases.). Armorer training and parts cost for department weapons.
> ...


I can only speak from experience and certain guns just have no equal, ww1 slam fire Ithacas, colt 1911, hk p7, cz75, ak47, 870 remington, remington 700. Colt 6” python And so forth, the whole polymer frame nonsense is soley based on cheap cheap cheap, Pennies compared to a true forged frame, sure they work but its not innovation i mentioned the p7. Prob most expensive gun on the market right now. A Swiss watch of a weapon but i like hk polymer stuff a much as glock. They may work but if you’re given the choice do you buy chevy or ferrari. I didnt even mention sig but you can honestly say they’re of equal quality?


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

Shipwreck said:


> I kinda agree w/ Uncut - Not all LEOs know everything. If I was an LEO, I wouldn't want a Glock. But, everyone has their own opinion.
> 
> I am one of the rare few who would rather have a P99 over a 1911. Does that make all the 1911 fans wrong? No. Its just preference.


I may sound dumb here, but I would rather, as a cop, carry a Beretta 92FS than a Glock.


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I have owned several Glocks over the years as a matter of fact the LGS called to say my Gen 3 22C is ready for pickup. I like Glocks for what they are. I am guilty of bias regarding Taurus products and I am happy to admit that. Other than that I would just as soon not rip someone else's choice to feel better or superior with my choice.
I own and shoot some fine and relatively costly handguns, but when it absolutely has to work or I die, I'll take a Glock every time.


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