# A well-rounded 9mm?



## A_J (May 22, 2006)

OK, before you say to yourself "oh god, not another one of these threads.." and roll your eyes :roll:

I'm looking for input on a good 9mm defensive round, but with some specific criteria.

When it comes to 9mm, from everything I've read and seen over the years, I'm generally of the "faster is better" camp. Given the idea of hydrostatics (the faster an object moves through a fluid, the more the fluid will behave like a solid in relation to the object), and that the human body is 70% water, I would think that a lighter (115/124 gr) bullet at a higher velocity would give better expansion than a heavier (147 gr) bullet at a lower velocity.

+P you say? Ahh, yes - in my USP maybe. But since taking up the P99 and P99C, I'm looking into standard pressure offerings, as Walther apparently doesn't recommend +P in the P99's.

And another thing - cost and availabilty. Sure, the argument can be made that one can't justify skimping on defensive ammo, but at $1 + per round, and sometimes scarce availabilty, it quicky becomes "special occasion ammo". I want to practice with what I carry - both gun and ammo.

So what I'm after:

- Good stopping performance (and low muzzle flash if possible)

- Standard pressure

- 115/124 grain hollowpoint

- Good availabilty and cost. None of this $25 for a box of 20 +P+ anti-werewolf rounds, put 50 rounds though your gun for function testing and call it good, then go back to target ammo for practice hoo-ha. I want to be able to afford to put at least 250 rounds downrange a month with the actual ammo that I carry. And this reinforces why I want standard pressure - over time that much +P is going to put a beating on any gun..

I've been doing some poking around on the internut, and see that both Federal and Remington have "generic" defensive rounds that somewhat fit my requirements - they come in boxes of 50 for ok prices, standard pressure, 115 gr HP.. but they're not thier top-o-the-line premium ammo. But I would think these are ok from a defensive standpoint. Either way, the local chain sporting goods store carries the Remingtons, so I snagged a couple of boxes to try out. One has to wonder too, how much of the "Super fantastic premium tactical defense round" thing is marketing hype..

Any comments or suggestions? Real world experience or informal test results?


----------



## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I have heard very good things about Speer Golddot.

I have also seen some pictures and write ups of some tests in the past month or so. I'lls ee if I can find them - I just tried, but had no luck...


----------



## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

A_J,

As to the light bullet/high velocity vs. heavy bullet/lower velocity arguments, I'll make the following observation:

A reported shootout involving FBI agents, an assailant was hit with a heart shot from a .357 Magnum with 125gr JHP bullets. The assailant kept firing, either killing or wounding an agent. It was later discovered the bullet had stopped short of hitting the heart. It had simply lost too much cross sectional area, and momentum. 

Sometimes a bullet must penetrate heavy winter clothing, or an arm thrown up in defense, to reach a vital area. For this reason I've gone to heavier bullets for my defense rounds.

Bob Wright


----------



## A_J (May 22, 2006)

True, that's the other side of the weight debate - a heavier bullet will impart more kinetic energy on impact. 

Certainly, in a generally slower round, like the .45 acp, I'd be inclined to go for a heavier bullet.

So in the interest of keeping an open mind, I don't necessarily have to restrict my search to 115/124 gr...


----------



## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

Look at the Hornady Custom Line of defense ammo. Its what I stoke the wife's .380 Colt Mustage with.:smt071


----------



## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Speer Gold Dot's, Federal Hydra Shocks, Remington Gloden Saber there are a lot of good reliable rounds out there. 
As for the "what to use" in your home defense/carry gun. Someone elses favorite may or may not function in your gun or in your magazines. No matter what brand you pick, buy several boxes and SHOOT it. Make sure the ammo works in YOUR gun and in ALL the magazines you use in that gun. If it shoots, functions and cycles in your gun that may be the round for you.

Personally I load my own.:mrgreen:


----------



## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

A_J,
At the verge of going beyond knowing what I am talking about, kinetic energy transfer actually plays very little part in bullet effectiveness. Sectional density does play a vital role in penetration, as does momentum.

Most bullets hit with enough impact to impart "shock." But unless the bullet reaches vital organs or supportive bone atructure, shock alone has little stopping effect.

Bob Wright


----------



## A_J (May 22, 2006)

Bob Wright, I think we're basically on the same page - I get what your'e saying, and since density is related to mass is related to momentum is related to kinetic energy, I'll forego getting all mathematic... mostly cause I don't feel like diggin out the equations - it's been too long since my physics courses.

I guess the point is that the heavier bullet has a better chance of penetrating what it needs to. And yes, it won't really transfer it's energy as shock unless it hits something solid.. which brings me back to velocity aiding expansion and creating a bigger wound channel.

2400 -


> No matter what brand you pick, buy several boxes and SHOOT it.


That's why I'm asking - I want something I can shoot a lot of, and still afford my Top Ramen. Not just several boxes, but cases, if possible. And from what I've seen at local stores, Speer Gold Dot's, Federal Hydra Shocks and Remington Gloden Saber are still cost-prohibitive..

It's like if you spend all this money on a Ferrari that you can only afford to drive at the track once in a blue moon, vs. buying a lesser car that you can practice with every day - in the end I would think you're going to drive better with the set-up that you live and breathe with.

So with ammo and gun, why wouldn't it be similar? Wouldn't I reach my highest potential if I can practice regularly and consistently with a reasonably good, economical defense round, vs. only occasionally dragging out the high-end specialty ammo? After all, isn't shooting well and consistent shot placement better that the whole "this round is better than that one" debate?

Or am I in the minority here?


----------



## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

I'll throw another monkey wrench in the fray....

I'm a proponent (sp) of the 'shot placement is king' line of thinking. I also want all possible advantages on my side so I carry a .45. 

That being said, what I belive to be more important than bullet weight is WHAT LOAD IS MOST ACCURATE in your given gun. Buy a bunch of reputable brands/weights test 'em all. Stoke your carry weapon with what works best.

Food for thought????


----------



## Bob Wright (May 10, 2006)

O.K. - one more post:

I shoot a lot, at times 1000~1200 rpm (Rounds Per Month) and I developed an economical handload that duplicates my choice factory self defense round. I can shoot my handloads then switch to factory knowing I'm getting the same performance.

And cross sectional density, that is, weight per square inch, not cubic inch.

Bob Wright


----------



## A_J (May 22, 2006)

That's part of what was getting at - looking for input on an accurate, good performing, affordable round, given the realization that what may be dead-on accurate in another gun may not be as accurate in a P99, or vice-versa.


----------



## A_J (May 22, 2006)

Bob Wright said:


> O.K. - one more post:
> 
> I shoot a lot, at times 1000~1200 rpm (Rounds Per Month) and I developed an economical handload that duplicates my choice factory self defense round. I can shoot my handloads then switch to factory knowing I'm getting the same performance.
> 
> Bob Wright


Ideally, I could do this too. But my living situation doesn't allow for me to have a handloading bench. I guess the next best thing would be a given brand of round where the economical 'practice' round and it's 'premium' defense sibling were identical in every way execpt one is FMJ and one is HP, and they feel and perform the same.


----------



## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

A_J said:


> 2400 -
> 
> That's why I'm asking - I want something I can shoot a lot of, and still afford my Top Ramen.


In a word, handload. It's easy to buy the same bullet, load it and get the same velocity out of your handloads. If you don't feel comfortable carrying handloads then carry factory ammo but practice with your handloads.


----------



## A_J (May 22, 2006)

Ugh.. maybe that's where I'm left at - reason #475 why I need to get out of my apartment and move out to the country into a house that's mostly a garage :smt086


----------



## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

A_J said:


> Ugh.. maybe that's where I'm left at - reason #475 why I need to get out of my apartment and move out to the country into a house that's mostly a garage :smt086


I've seen a lot of guys use a B&D Workmate to mount a press on for use in a small space. Just mount it, load some ammo and take it down.


----------



## Maximo (May 26, 2006)

I carry either Speer goldot or Hornady TAP, mostly the Hornady, I seem to get better accuracy with the Hornady.


----------

