# Chanbered v,s, unchambered carry



## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

an ongoing debate. couple videos on the topic:


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## GETCHERGUN (Oct 6, 2014)

I have heard excuses for carrying unloaded but never a sound reason for it.

There just is no good reason for a private citizen in defense of self and loved ones to do this.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Every once in a while this topic gets introduced for discussion (read that as argument) on gun websites. While I firmly believe that this is a decision best left up to the individual, my personal take is that when presented with this question, I am dancing with a fool.

One fellow on a popular website went so far to argue that he only carried when going into areas or places that he knew to be questionable. Gee, I wish I had that sort of foresight. Try as some might, this fellow could not be shaken from his stance that carrying unchambered was the way to go. He was convinced that he could get his gun into action quickly enough in an extreme encounter and therefore, did not need to carry in full battery. No amount of logic or common sense was going to sway him from his position.

Yes I do support such decisions by other individuals. It's their life and their prerogative. What I don't support is them trying to make a sane and valid argument for a style of carry that is at best, foolish and spitting in the face of reality.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

why waste the time needed to chamber a round and/or possibly have a failure to feed if your life depends on it????


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

RK3369 said:


> why waste the time needed to chamber a round and/or possibly have a failure to feed if your life depends on it????


Not to mention the possibility of a perp shooting your support arm or hand or hitting it hard with a club or bat or cutting it with a knife or any of a myriad of bad things that could get in the way of chambering a round in the extremes of a dangerous encounter.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

A handgun's main purpose is for trouble that didn't write ahead. If it wrote ahead, we'd have a rifle or shotgun in our hands. And, it tends to happen so quickly, that a victim may barely have time to draw/grab a gun...let alone chamber a round provided he has both hands free. Then there are two other issues: Unlike chambering a round at the range, when chambering a round in a hurry under stress with sweaty hands, etc. it's easy to not pull the slide all the way back & end up with a feed malfunction that you'll be unlikely to clear in time. And, sometimes when a round is chambered, the slide does not close completely due to a round out of spec.

If I were not comfortable with a light, striker-fired trigger like a Glock or XD, there are D.A. autos that require a heavy, D.A. revolver-like trigger pull for the first shot. Or, choose a D.A. revolver.

If an empty chamber were a good idea, police officers would take advantage of any safety enhancement by carrying that way.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

win231 said:


> If an empty chamber were a good idea, police officers would take advantage of any safety enhancement by carrying that way.


My stepson is a DOC officer, working armed transport and the SORT team. They do training with officers from all the various facilities in Colorado.
He tells me that one of the private prisons requires it's staff to carry with an empty chamber...

He also said that during a 2 day training event, the staff from that prison had no less than 4 guns that failed badly enough that they had to be replaced. He wasn't clear on the nature of the failures.

It's true... a gun that won't fire is pretty safe...


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Might as well carry a brick!


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## cobra1945 (Sep 21, 2015)

I agree with Win231. Muscle memory will control your actions when an emergency comes up and you have to use your weapon. If you haven't practiced almost daily the drawing, racking, and firing without getting a "perfect" sight picture, muscle memory will fail you and your will represent 1 on the statistics. As an LEO, for too many years, we were trained to (at close quarters 0-10 yrds) draw,point, and fire two shots in less than 2 seconds into body mass (neck to stomach) and 1 shot to the head if he is still standing. The training started with 1/2 day a week every week for 6 months going thru the stages, 3 point or Weaver stance, on knee(s), and prone. We went from holstered on a whistle to firing and a reload. (This was standard LEO training in the period 1978-2000. Not familiar with current requirements). It was determined that because, in training, empty magazines were put in pocket or in belt, when in a gunfight some of the officers took time to put magazine in their pocket or belt. This was more than once a fatal mistake. Don't get a concealed carry permit, put gun in a IWB holster and never pratice with it. Your mind has to automatically know what to do without you thinking about unholstering, taking off safety, racking a round, sight, and pull the trigger.


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## miketx60 (Jul 20, 2015)

People who carry unloaded guns are stupid. Ok, have at me...


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I carry a commander 1911, cocked and locked. 

1) bad guy can't just grab and pull the trigger like no-safety pistols (probably doesn't know 1911)
2) Two of the best safeties ever invented and the easiest to take off on the fly
3) I have a lot of muscle memory.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Toddler shoots mother in parking lot.

Mother shoots assailant in parking lot.


Israeli carry vs cocked and locked....


The best method of carry combines safety with necessity. 

If safety is of higher need then the chamber should be empty, if necessity dictates an immediate response, then chambered round.

For myself the need for immediate response often is not there. I therefore prioritize safety higher, and an empty chamber on a semi auto, 
although costing seconds in response time, increases my safety margin dramatically.

But then we all live in different worlds, different communities, different states of need ( refer to Jeff Cooper readyness codes: yellow, orange, red ). 
Some of us have to live in the red zone constantly. Some of us infrequently enter orange.

There really is no argument, but a serious question: Does your state of carry sufficiently meet your armed response need?

Then follows another question: Are you trained and prepared to respond from that state of carry? 
This can circle back and cause you to revaluate your response need.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

CW said:


> Toddler shoots mother in parking lot.
> 
> Mother shoots assailant in parking lot.
> 
> ...


The issue I have with that is that you never know when or where you may become a victim of a violent crime. Even in the safest of communities. Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is a fools errand that could get you killed in an emergency situation. As I stated earlier: "You might as well carry a brick". Modern firearms can indeed be carried safely with a loaded chamber. They do not go off by themselves unless someone pulls the trigger. If safety is your main concern and I'm assuming having it fall into unauthorized hands then keeping it locked up empty in a safe is your best bet. I do not understand why anyone would even want to carry a gun unless it's for personal self defense in which case it must be ready to go at an instant's notice. The time it takes to rack a slide and chamber a round could cost you your life. Having to act quickly you may fumble and not be able to successfully chamber a round. On some semi auto's with a de-cocking mechanism you may forget that the safety is on. On some semi auto's if the safety is left on you can not even rack the slide. As for me in an emergency situation all I want to be able to do is draw the weapon and fire. Why add other elements to the equation? The fewer things you have to do or think about can only work to your advantage.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

CW said:


> For myself the need for immediate response often is not there. I therefore prioritize safety higher, and an empty chamber on a semi auto,
> although costing seconds in response time, increases my safety margin dramatically.


You carry a gun to add to your safety in a violent confrontation. That only works if the gun is loaded. If you don't think the gun needs to be loaded, then you don't need to carry the gun.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

In my opinion, a person who carries with an empty chamber has decided that the only shooting situation that they will ever personally participate in is the one where they are viewing it from a distance and have time to make the conscious decision to intervene, before actually doing it. I can think of no other situation in which they might have time to draw, rack the slide, bring the muzzle to bear, and pull the trigger, before the antagonist has the opportunity to empty most of the contents of his own weapon in their direction.

Personally, I want the gun to be ready to fire as soon as I can get it out, because my SD strategy relies heavily on surprise. I've made the conscious decision that a quick draw is not what I will rely upon, but an empty chamber is an obstacle to overcome that even that strategy can't justify.


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## RevDerb (Jun 4, 2008)

IMO, if you're carrying without a round in the chamber, you might as well leave your gun at home.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

RevDerb said:


> IMO, if you're carrying without a round in the chamber, you might as well leave your gun at home.


Well, I don't know about that... you can hold it by the barrel and use the butt to crack walnuts...


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Another point of view.......
The Thinking Gunfighter: THE MYTHS OF THE ISRAELI METHOD OF CARRY, or why carrying chamber empty isn?t so bad.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

I like Armstrong, but there's still some stuff wrong with C3 that isn't well covered in that article and its a lot of context that is missing.

As for the speed of presentation "it only takes a second" if you believe the rule of 3s, 3 shots in 3 seconds at 3 yards you are adding 1/3 of your time in what is all ready a pretty fast paced evolution where being slower than you attacker is a bad thing.

It's a matter of over coming an initiative deficit. C3 presentations do. Do do not well in close quarters.

Every student I've had has performed quickly and more accurately with a loaded gun.

As for Fairbarin etal. C3 was prescribed as a method of safe administrative handling as officers had to share guns and turn them over to the next shift. That's in "Shooting to Live"

As for the Military, even before WWII the prescribed method of carry for the M1911A1 was chamber empty _when not expecting trouble ie while in garrison when moving into Combat weapons were to be chambered. That can be found in the M1911A1 users manual dated in the mid to late 20's.

Civilians do not know the hour or the place where the gun may be needed so it should be be carried in its most expedient state of readiness.

A lot of stuff can go wrong with a C3 presentation. Simply short stroking the slide or the draw stroke being fouled can prevent the gun from getting to a fighting state.

C3 can make sense in an environment where there is more administrative handling than risk of required usage of the gun. There are very few instances where that is really the case that can not be equally safe with a proper holster that can be removed from the belt so that the firearm (and most importantly the trigger) are never exposed.

I wear my gun typically from 7:30am till around 11pm the only time I take it off is during my gum time and the firearm is secured in ita holster and on a lock box.

At no time is there a risk of negligent discharge due to improper handling in that scenario.

As for the case of the mom killed by her toddler via loaded purse gun....that is one case where C3 may be preferred bit it comes down to a lack of discipline and responsibility that lead to that incident.

Most people that carry C3 are on the light side of training hours and do not trust the gun or themselves. In those cases I do dot belittle them for carrying in that manner, but encourage them to seek more training and build good, solid habits in their gun handling and pretty much all eventually convert to carrying a loaded pistol._


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Hmm I know that a lot of professional in Israel teach to carry with a empty chamber. I never understood why.




It comes down to trust your gun. If and I mean if you are uncomfortable to carry a gun chambered and you fear that you could accidentally pull the trigger than a Glock style gun is may be the wrong gun for you. You may be should look into a gun that has a manual safety. Taking off a manual safety is only training. Me for example draw and shoot with a manual safety on or off, even if I don't know the safety status in the same speed than with a Gun without a additional manual safety.

I have guns that have no manual safety, but I don't carry them concealed at all when I don't trust the trigger. I only carry guns that I feel comfortable to carry full loaded.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

They carry C3 as "That's the way we do it" it goes back to when Isreal as we know it today was a new nation they were taking whatever guns they could get their hands on. C3 was the most universal method of gun handling across a wide variety of handguns.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

PT111Pro said:


> Hmm I know that a lot of professional in Israel teach to carry with a empty chamber. I never understood why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok...I watched about 4 minutes of that video and lost count of how many times "D" swept himself with the muzzle. It'a a good thing the guns not loaded because it looks like he's going to shoot himself.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

VAMarine said:


> As for the case of the mom killed by her toddler via loaded purse gun....that is one case where C3 may be preferred bit it comes down to a lack of discipline and responsibility that lead to that incident.


The solution to cases such as this is to CARRY your gun, so that you control it. Not leave it behind.



VAMarine said:


> Most people that carry C3 are on the light side of training hours and do not trust the gun or themselves. In those cases I do dot belittle them for carrying in that manner, but encourage them to seek more training and build good, solid habits in their gun handling and pretty much all eventually convert to carrying a loaded pistol.


Agreed. Handguns are designed to be carried loaded. If you don't trust the gun (or yourself), don't carry it.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I was going to offer a lengthy response as to why you should carry loaded all the time, but to be honest, I just don't care what some people do any more.


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## cobra1945 (Sep 21, 2015)

*My reasons for chambered carry*



paratrooper said:


> I was going to offer a lengthy response as to why you should carry loaded all the time, but to be honest, I just don't care what some people do any more.


On July 4, 3;10am I received a call that a man had caught his sister in law with a man that wasn't her husband. The dispatcher mentioned 10-73, our code for mental patient. I lived and worked in a 475 sq mile county with 75K plus residents. That night I was the only deputy on in the county. (cities had some). Dispatcher answered radio and phone between naps. I arrived at the scene did not get out of my car, looked around, saw a lady with a child, and ask where the BIL was? I am told he is at my passenger door. I look at him holding a gun in my face. For the next hour I talk with him. ***he is drinking and may have drugs in him*** The adrenlin is running thru my body like never before. Seconds became minitues. I could see his finger move slightly and in my mind figure out what i said and what i was going to say next. His finger would relax. This went on through out the incident. I had a habit of laying my micophone to the radio beside my right leg. I moved my leg to where I was transmitting over the whole county that was listening in on my frequency.I made sure he talked while the mic was on, and i mentioned this was my last call of the night.NOW in situations like this where there is immediate life threatening danger there is a thing called "tunnel vision". I experienced it being able to focuse on the gun, trigger, and the perps finger muscles and movement. I SAW or heard nothing other than what he said and the previously described movements. Another example of tunnel vision was a swat team entering a building (stacked as they call it, one behind the other touching the shoulder) and a few fee inside the building the leader turns left and fires multiplle shots.The third person in the stack behind the shooter saw the bullet hulls in the air and they were hitting them, but never heard a shot.This was a fully justified shooting with multiple officers with rank and without rank witnessing events and telling the same story. Thats tunnel vision also. When you are called on to participate in a situation to save youself, family, or anyone else, it will be so fast you will have to act immediately. Muscle memory(and adrenlin will take over, and when you see the danger direct youself to it (that will happen naturally) afterward when the incident is over understand that is NORMAL. Its the way the body prepares you for what must be done and helps to protect you. You will know watching the tunnel vision whether you have to shoot or not and when to shoot. P.S. my best friend arrived and we took the gun from the mental gun when i saw him relax his trigger finger. Both of us wrestled with him and got the gun away and put cuffs on him. At that point the adrenlin stopped flowing and I was so weak I could not stand up beside the car. He searved no time for that.One of the lessons contained in there is there is no time to take off safety, rack a round into chamber, and air and fire.If you are going to carry a cw, know what you are doing, talk with yourself to determine if you can look a man in the eye and terminate his life, after determining that pratice with your weapon to get good muscle memory, drawing, aiming and shooting. Personal not fire at least 2 in chest and if that don't stop him one in the head helps especially if you have one of the larger calibers. I perfer 45cal. Know you have done the right thing, and don't be too strong to see mental health counciling. Average people don't regularly kill people. It will help you with the after effects. NEVER allow your mind to do the "I woulda, I coulda, I shoulda, Maybe if. You only responded in a civil way to an agressive action, thats illegal, and intents to injure someone.


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## Donn (Jul 26, 2013)

This path is so well worn it's becoming a trench. I'm with Paratrooper on this. Do whatever you want. I'm out.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

My most likely scenario is a disgruntled ex-employee, or spouse showing up at work and racking up a body count.

Personally, I would choose a charged SBR under my desk, but then I'm not point man, but the receptionist and counter sales people are.
I would expect them to be loaded chamber if they were allowed to cc.

Remember not every place allows carry - concealed or otherwise, while others allow with limitations.

Although I have been carrying a Beretta 84, my recent purchase of a CZ PCR as well as the repair of a Rossi revolver has changed my perspective of the loaded chamber on an auto.

Once decocked, the PCR is now no different than a revolver [on first shot] and the de-cocking lever design makes this much easier even though my Beretta has a similar device. 
I know of no one who carries a revolver on an empty chamber [except perhaps old revolvers without pin blocks or transfer bars],
so the notion that an empty chamber is safer kinda looses some steam.

I tend to agree with the statements that for those with less opportunity to train and practice, c3 may be the better carry method. 
But we should all be confident with the method and weapon we choose for our daily carry, otherwise, leave the thing at home.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> VAMarine
> Ok...I watched about 4 minutes of that video and lost count of how many times "D" swept himself with the muzzle. It'a a good thing the guns not loaded because it looks like he's going to shoot himself


I don't know why but the Israel law enforcement and military have a completely different approach when it's comes to firearms attack, self defense and gun carry.
Here a different 8 minute video that shows the difference between Israeli and US firearms training very good. 




I don't like the Israel approach because of carrying an empty chamber and the much wider profile in combat. Notice how wide (legs, arms) they approach combat.

Like I said, I don't understand why they do that. I don't see the gain in safety or readiness. I know that there different approaches around the world how to handle firearms also combat tactics. The Europeans for example like to have a round chambered but like also an external safety, the US Americans don't. But not having a round chambered at all?
In my opinion when someone is scared that s/he fires the gun accidentally or that a child could get hold of the gun, than a different set up in access has to be made and there would be the possibility to use a different gun, may be a gun with an external safety would be right.

One is for sure. My gun is loaded and has a round chambered at all the time.


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

VAMarine said:


> Ok...I watched about 4 minutes of that video and lost count of how many times "D" swept himself with the muzzle. It'a a good thing the guns not loaded because it looks like he's going to shoot himself.


That's the only really good argument for carrying an unloaded gun - you're not competent to carry one that's loaded.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

DirtyDog said:


> You carry a gun to add to your safety in a violent confrontation. That only works if the gun is loaded. If you don't think the gun needs to be loaded, then you don't need to carry the gun.


l

I agree a chambered gun seems to be the desired carry mode.

But how do you justify the reasoning that you shouldn't carry if not chambered.

How about carrying extra mags, cause there would be a loading process involved ?


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## DirtyDog (Oct 16, 2014)

pic said:


> l
> 
> I agree a chambered gun seems to be the desired carry mode.
> 
> ...


The only person who should carry an unloaded gun is someone who isn't safe carrying a loaded gun. And they shouldn't carry at all.






Extra magazines are a totally different issue. If I've emptied a magazine at you and the situation is not resolved, then we're already in an *extremely* unusual confrontation.


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## faststang90 (Apr 8, 2013)

I carry my px4 loaded and on safety. I fell it is very safe that way and it does not take long to kick safety off.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

paratrooper said:


> I was going to offer a lengthy response as to why you should carry loaded all the time, but to be honest, I just don't care what some people do any more.


Yep. It's not like the human race is going extinct. We lose a bunch every day to "Oh shit" mistakes.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

You have emptied your gun, and the threat has not been resolved. Wouldn't dropping and inserting a new mag , racking the slide be very time consuming ?


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

pic said:


> You have emptied your gun, and the threat has not been resolved. Wouldn't dropping and inserting a new mag , racking the slide be very time consuming ?


Yup, drawing a different all ready loaded gun is much better.

The big difference is if you NEED to reload, you need to reload. There is little choice in the matter if sumdood still needs shooting.

There is a choice in the matter with C1 vs C3.

I don't buy into the "If you don't carry C1, you shouldn't carry at all"

Everyone starts somewhere and not everyone is as comfortable with a firearm in a ready to be fired (or almost ready to be fired) vs an unchambered firearm.

To each their own in accordance to their level of "comfort," proficiency and training.

YMMV.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Must be something in the water
..










http://preparedgunowners.com/2015/0...ep-your-self-defense-gun-on-an-empty-chamber/


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

When people have asked my opinion on this topic, I tell them to do what is comfortable for them. BUT!, I follow up with the opinion that carrying C1 should be the goal. 

Then I offer the scenario that two people are both carrying and one is C1 and the other is C3. Both people, for whatever reason, have to go to C0. Picture the motions involved. Now, after the threat is over, both of them go back to their comfortable carry condition. C1 and C3. Again, picture the neccessary motions to do that. 

I know what is most comfortable for me.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

H


VAMarine said:


> Yup, drawing a different all ready loaded gun is much better.
> 
> The big difference is if you NEED to reload, you need to reload. There is little choice in the matter if sumdood still needs shooting.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything hands down (especially the second gun ) except the word "comfort".

I myself prefer the word "choice "verses the word "comfort " The word Comfort seems to imply newbie, lack of training.

Where , in myself ,I make a "choice" not a comfort decision relating to inexperience,, my choice , as some imply , comfort lacks confidence, training, and abilities.

Btw , I am responding to agree, not disagree?

We know there are a hundred n one scenarios that could happen , some may or most extremist carriers apply to the moments notice of a bad guy charging,lol. It's reality, no doubt, very exceptable,,. it's quite smart to train for such a situation. But you still need to make quick hard decisions,, is justifiable deadly force JUSTIFIED.

Myself, I do carry one in the chamber. Except certain situations when it's my choice not to.

Does "comfort" "choice" bear the same meaning, hmmm?

:smt1099


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

I would say that ones comfort level has a lot to do with the choice.

I don't particularly care for the word "comfort" but not coming up with anything better at the moment. There are people that aren't mentally ready for C1 and there are people not physically ready (piss poor gun handling etc) one is a mental barrier and the other is a physical barrier.

The forums are full of C3 carries that have had negligent discharges as "I didn't think my gun was loaded...."

Those guys lack the mental acuity and physical gun handling. 

Any way....people gonna do what people do.


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