# grouping size



## nayr (Oct 24, 2011)

whats a respectable grouping size at 10 yds and at 15 yds?

thanks for your time


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

for whom? shooting what? in what conditions? and respectable to whom?


----------



## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree with Ted on this one. It's entirely variable, on everything. In general the real question you should be asking isn't what do random people on the internet think is a good grouping, but rather is whatever grouping size you produce is good enough for you?


----------



## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

a regular golfer plays not against other golfers but against himself...... always trying to better his last score on that course.... i think this is how we shooters need to measure ourselves too.

what is my base line score/group.... say the average of 10 targets by score or group measurement.

now whenever you shoot, you should be trying to consistently improve thru basic shooting techniques.

when the groups get too tight/scores are perfect.... send the target further down range or limit your time or dim the lights.... alter the course of fire till you master it and then change it more.... 

you decide


----------



## nayr (Oct 24, 2011)

fair enough, that was a bad and very subjective question.


----------



## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

If you want a goal to work toward, I'd suggest shot groups that measure 1" to 1.5" for each 5 yards of distance to the target. 10 yard target, 2"-3" groups; 15 yards, 3" to 4.5" clusters. Traditionally, this would be fired from a two-handed unsupported standing position, taking your time (no formal time limit) but without moving out of position or taking a break between shots, and the group would be either 3 or 5 shots. Sometimes, revolver shot groups would be a full cylinder (usually 6 shots, back in the good old days), in each group.

If you get to where you can regularly stay at the bottom end of this range (1" group per 5 yards of distance), you'll probably be defined as a "good shot" by most informal/non-competitive shooters. On some ranges, you'll be a shooting deity, watched in awe from afar and quietly asked for tips and helpful hints; on other ranges, you'll be the new kid that is showing some promise, but still throws one "way out on the edge of the 10-ring" occasionally. :mrgreen:


----------



## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

The size that saves your butt if the chips are down.


----------



## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

nayr said:


> fair enough, that was a bad and very subjective question.


Nope, a good question. Just needs a little refining on "what you are doing".

Here's two totally different "what is a good group" deals I've done in the past two weeks. YMMV will obviously vary based on your objectives. :smt1099
Note that neither "deal" has anything to do with trying to determine a pistol's "inherent accuracy" grouping at some distance. You know, the standard "magazine review stuff".

First, for self-defense "practice", I have simple home-printed target on plain white 8.5" x 11" paper. 
Concentric circles. Starting with one inch radius, and going up to three inches. So, the "big circle" is six inches in diameter.

My usual practice for my current carry gun (Sig P290) is to draw from concealment, fire first mag with whatever you want to call "stance". (Weaver, isoceles, etc.).
Empty it, dump that mag, reload and fire away. Both as fast as possible, with both eyes open "looking through the sights" AT THE TARGET. Starting at 7 yards.

Then maybe ten yards. I seldom try this at 15 or 20 yards. I consider it prefectly acceptable if I get all the shots in the six inch circle. "Center of Mass", you know.
I think most non-LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) ranges WILL NOT allow you to do the draw and fast fire, reload and fast fire. For obvious safety reasons.

I have my favorite "Nat'l Forest hidden spot". Legally I can doing anything I want. And any needed emergency treatment is ENTIRELY up to me.
What is a good group doing this ? Well, I just want all the shots in the six inch diameter circle. Anything better than that is very nice, and just feeds my ego. :mrgreen:

Second, I just got my first .22LR pistol. A Browning Buck Mark semi-auto. Many folks use this type (lots of Ruger Mark I,II,III) for competitive rimfire shooting. "Bullseye".
The target is the NRA B8. My cheap home-printed version is below. Actual NRA B8 targets are black for the inner ring (X-ring), second (10 ring), and third (9 ring) circles.
So, the circle points added are X-count, 10 points, 9 points, 8 points, etc. The grayed-out one inch square are not on real targets. Just for my sighting in purposes.

Many clubs do all the bullseye shooting at 25 yards (instead of the NRA match 50 yard "slow-fire"). The shooting has to be done one-handed. So, a totally different ballgame
than "self-defense". People get VERY competitive over this stuff.

This is the 15th target (141-150 shots) from my first time with my new Buck Mark, and first ever session at scoring the bullseye course of fire from 25 yards.
I was tired, and just did all ten shots fast fire. All are on the paper. My first five are all in the 10 ring (scoring 50 points, 1 X). And then I really tired, and started wandering.
Badly. The last shot is very low and left, just under the "A" in "ALL". My observation: this is HARD to do well.

What's a good group doing this ? If you want to be a competitive bullseye shooter, even at the local club level, they all (almost all) need to be in the ten ring.
Number of X (inner) ring counts decide point ties. Yes, I have a LOT of work to do.


----------



## HK Dan (Dec 22, 2010)

IMHO, that close, shooting slowfire for group, you want to be an inch to an inch and a half. If mine aren't all touching at 10 yards, I did something wrong.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...And the prize for the most creative use of golf tees goes to *DanP*!

Since that's a six-inch circle, getting all of your shots in it at seven to 10 yards, shooting quickly as one would in self-defense, is very nice work.
Of course, doing it with a .22 makes the job somewhat easier.

I believe that if you shoot slowly enough to put all your hits in an inch and a half at 10 yards, you are shooting too slowly for useful self defense. However, that would be good practice in preparation for 50-yard pistol shooting.
Of course, if your adversary is 50 yards away, I believe that you should've evaded and escaped, not engaged. But that's just me.


----------



## 870ShellShucker (Oct 12, 2011)

> Of course, if your adversary is 50 yards away, I believe that you should've evaded and escaped, not engaged. But that's just me.


Not if he engages first.


----------



## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

:smt1099


Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...And the prize for the most creative use of golf tees goes to *DanP*!
> 
> Since that's a six-inch circle, getting all of your shots in it at seven to 10 yards, shooting quickly as one would in self-defense, is very nice work.
> Of course, doing it with a .22 makes the job somewhat easier.
> ...


Thanks Steve, I have a near endless supply of golf tees. It seems I get a bag of 250 every year for Christmas. :mrgreen:
And I agree with "your analysis" above.
I just think SD practice needs to be "Fast and Furious", to coin a phrase.

And as for .22LR work, yes, it is easy to "be good" at 10 yards. Bullseye off-hand standing with one hand at 25 yds. is still a very big challenge for me. :smt1099


----------



## DanP_from_AZ (May 8, 2009)

HK Dan said:


> IMHO, that close, shooting slowfire for group, you want to be an inch to an inch and a half. If mine aren't all touching at 10 yards, I did something wrong.


I guess I think "that" depends on your objective.

A inch and half group at ten yards is very good.
Not very often, but in the past I've done "that slow fire group for accuracy" deal with all my handguns just for fun.
I don't think I achieved any inch and a half groups. Sometimes pretty close as I remember ? But only "best case". 
That is pretty close to the inherent accuracy of my centerfire guns and practice ammo. The .22LR is a different animal.

I don't expect to meet a dude who says "your money or your life".
And then says "you have just two minutes to put five rounds in a one inch group into my sternum".
And finally says "After that, I'm going to kill you if any shots are outside your idea of a proper group". :smt1099


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ..._f your adversary is 50 yards away, I believe that you should've evaded and escaped, not engaged. But that's just me._


_


870ShellShucker said:



Not if he engages first.

Click to expand...

Even if your adversary engages first, at 50 yards you have lots of opportunity to:
• Move to cover, and use the cover to retreat;
• And if he hasn't already hit you, he's probably a poor shot, so that gives you all the more time to evade and escape;
• While escaping, move in an erratic pattern, making it even more difficult to hit you;
• Crawl to where you left your rifle, assume a steady, prone shooting position, and kill the stupid guy.

In a real-world fight, a pistol is useful out to maybe 20 yards. You can extend that to maybe 35 yards by going to rollover prone and firing very deliberately.
Anything between 20 and 50 yards is carbine country, of you want to make effective, fight-stopping hits.
Out past 25 yards, and in a save-your-life situation, I want a rifle._


----------

