# looking for handgun advice.



## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Hi, I am looking into getting a handgun since i turned 21 in august. the gun will be used manly for target shooting for fun, cheap to shoot so .22 mag or 9mm (both cost the same pretty much) and its got to go bang every time (my life might depend on it). i am not new to handguns, shot many different ones by the way and i had some fun times with some but was a little expensive to shoot for my liking. used to i would shoot about 50 or so rounds of .22lr when i was in 4-h shooting sports using their rife (savage with the accu trigger) with a leopuld scope (they let me take the gun home so i got practice in when ever i got time) thing was a tack driver. (not important but is something that i used to do.)

so far my budget is around $400, but i will go up to $500 for a better gun/worth it, so far i got my hands on 2 different ones. I know there is more choices out there but these 2 are the only ones i held that i am looking at getting. on the links best to worst. *i am not really looking for a compact pistol*

SP2022 9mm (this gun i love felt very nice in my hands price $400 and i hear good things about it) i can get this with tax and a box of bullets for under 500. (but the trigger pull is high though. and didnt have that great of sights)
PMR-30 | Pistols | Kel-tec (slightly small in my hands, but from what i hear its worth it and fun to shoot. and that 30 round mag is sweet vs the normal 8-10 rounds depending on the gun. and the sights were better. price $550 since my dad is good friends with the dealer (he took $25 off)

see i am torn between the the first and second link but how dead on are the 2 if yall get what i am saying (if i am target shooting i like to be able to hit the target (see picture below of what i mean), but will be shooting cans, or them self resetting targets more then i would the paper targets. 
and i hear both are pretty good and are worth the money.

i plan on getting one around December. so i got some time.

thank yall for the advice and thoughts and i hope i am in the right location for my post. 
i will add more choices when i get my hands on some.

the picture was taken when i was in a 4-h competition, no rest, standing at 50ft (had 30min to make 20 shots) and using match grade ammo back then $60 for 500 rounds. i placed second in 2011 missed first by 4 points. best group i ever got with this gun not going to post rest of the pics due to i had gust of wind messing me me got a 178 out of 200.
i had a stray bullet (mine) but that is 3 shots right next to each other.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

the target was (6-10 and bulls-eye was a 10X)


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

This subject has been discussed here so many times...
I start to get impatient, and think to answer: Look through the posts and responses which already exist here.

But in your case, I have a much better thought:
Since, as you've wrote, you're in no hurry to buy that first pistol, why not spend the time thinking about exactly what you want the pistol for? What, exactly, do you want it to do for you?
Your two stated choices are nothing like each other, and have nothing much in common. Each is for a very different use, So, what is the primary use that you foresee for this first pistol?

Then, having decided what you want the pistol to do, go find all of the guns available in the marketplace that suit that use. Concentrate only on them, and nothing else. Find an instructor or a gun shop with a large "library" of pistols to try, and try them all (that is, rent shooting time on as many of them as you can).
Having done all that, you will be able to make an informed choice.

Nobody here has the ability to tell you what to buy, or which would best suit your needs, regardless of the suggestions anybody else writes.
It's a very personal choice. That which suits me will probably not suit you.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Thats the best advice I heard all day. Is this how you treat all new guys? Some useful info in there but nothing that isnt new to me. I am new to owning a pistol I have shot plenty of handguns from a .22lr to desert eagle .50 cal (I might be wrong on the cal size) (and shot many of brands in between) my fav is my dads springfield m1911 .45acp. I can put 6 out of 7 shots (max 7) in a 30 pack of budwizer box. At 10ft in low light (and thats center mass for a person like me. Btw) but that gun is expensive to shoot and not really that fun to target shoot. recoil is a little bad. 
I have had been reading good and bad things about both and looked on this site. did you fail to read the part I know there are more out there I am only posting those 2 (I live out of town from the nearest range and that is a 4hr round trip. I only go out of town if I have to.
. I already listed what I will be using it for. And I was wanting to hear from ppl that have put them paper I have yet to do so. I have yet to see a review where a person put the gun on a rest and hit the same spot every time they say its accurate but dont give specs. So far pmr 30 ppl say its extremely accurate

Ya I know to put some rounds in before buying one. Unless you dont have that option. 

And how are these not the same. Just one has a 30 round mag and shoots .22mag the other 10-15 round mag and shoots 9mm both cost the same to shoot. (the 9mm would be better for defense but shot placement any gun is good) if it was a defensive gun i would want a bigger caliber. it takes is shot placement to bring down anything. Lets see my dad took a nice sized hog with a .17hmr at 100yrds with one shot (right behind the ear). Shot many of deer with a .222 again shot placement. why I want one for me its target shooting. I can handle a bigger caliber. But not fun to shoot several rounds out of.



Right now that sig is the one I might get $100 cheaper and it fits slightly better
The kel tech isnt that bad. If its a better gun I will get that then.(this might change closer to December)


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

One point, the $400 budget really limits your selections even if you consider the used market. Making it $500 opens up a lot more options. I get almost all of mine used or on trades, in fact I'm trading a Glock for a Sig today. Like everyone will tell you, go to a range that rents guns and pick the one that works best for you. Of the 2 you mention, I'd go with the Sig. I had one for a time and it was a good gun, I just prefer the classic alloy frame Sigs...


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

I was going to respond with some wisecrack, but Steve pretty much said it all.

If you have already definitely limited your selection to the 2 pistols you mentioned, I would definitely go with the SIG. I own no SIGs because I am a lefty, and SIG seems to be not particularly lefy friendly. While I really like German pistols, I, personally, like HKs and Walthers, I would suggest the SIG for you for two reasons:

1) SIG has a better reputation than Kel-Tec and will, therefore, have a better resale value should you ever decide to move on to something else.

2) 22WMR, while probably a fine caliber, is not extremely popular and will make your pistol just as difficult to resell, should you ever decide to move on to another pistol.


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## MitchellB (Aug 14, 2010)

I'd consider a .22 LR pistol also for cheap shooting fun, instead of the more powerful .22 magnum. You can find revolvers with interchangeable cylinders that will shoot both and get the best of both worlds.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Well got some range time in with these guns (3) all 9mm, and felt great. at the cost of 58$ and got 25 rounds of 9mm left out of 50 
Smith and weston m & p 9mm shot decent
Glock 17 gen 4 9mm loved it and had a decent trigger pull with .5" slack
bretta 92fs loved it as well but the sights were its down fall might be expensive as well.
might have spelled the names wrong*


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

Not clear just what you intend to do, and want the gun to do. If you want to casual target shoot and plink, the Ruger Single-Six is accurate, reliable, and comes with both .22LR and .22 WRM cylinders. If you are a bit more serious about target shooting, the S&W 22A-1 can be set up for competition to be a single hole driller. I saw a rumor that S&W had closed that plant, but the guns are out there. If you want a 9, the options are damn near endless.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

I am sorry about not being clear hard to type on a mobile phone plus I tend to jump around a lot. 

I am all about a tack driver (means if the gun from a rest hits the same hole each time or close to it. its perfect that way I can't blame gun for a poor shot) I am not a perfect shooter I do good to get most of them close to each other. but I am decent (the glock 17 and bretta 92fs were pretty dang good had a decent group to but the 92fs=more $$$) 
and probably will try to get into competition down the road with the gun I purchase.
off topic that .22lr rifle I benched it at 50' little wind gust my match grade ammo shot almost in the same hole. Only problem was fte I had is using a 10 round mag but I used 5 round mag for my competitions

Yes .22lr is very cheap to shoot but would like a 9mm .and not much more In cost.

I remember seeing that 22a I think my dad has one? If I am correct it shot decent haven't papered it though (only shot cans with it)

See the gun I want is a tack driver something I can run 100+ rounds though and it wont let me down for $400-500 range prefer new. I dont have the coin to spend 700+ on one maybe 1 day I can

this is why I jumped on the forum yall are smarter then me and have shot more rounds then I have. I am a first time buyer but not a first time shooter.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

A shooter that can exceed the mechanical accuracy of any non-junk, non-messed up handgun is very, very rare indeed. Some 1911s from the high-end makers have stated accuracy limits - but you're not getting one of them for $500 or less. A gun being a "tack driver" has a lot more to do with the skill of the shooter than the gun...



> See the gun I want is a tack driver something I can run 100+ rounds though and it wont let me down for $400-500 range prefer new.


This sounds like you want reliability over all else. Most any modern gun is reliable with quality ammo.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Um does this show what I want with a handgun? I was shooting at 7yrds with federal range ammo.

Top 92fs (my contact went funky and I couldn't see well)

Bottom I was shooting a springfield xdm more then likely shooter error


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Ya, I found out I may have to go to 600$ great or I can find something in my price range and be happy with it. And get something better later


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

Can't see any pix in your post.

In general, achieving good groups is much more dependent on the shooter than it is the gun. This being said, some folks find "the" gun that just works for them and they just naturally shoot it well - for me that's a 1911. I did this several years ago, it was 25 rounds at 25 feet in less than 45 seconds with 2 mag changes. The 1911 I used (the one in the pic) was bought used for less than $500...


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Dang I was hoping it showed up on my screen it does
just noticed that I cant post attachments so dang...

And that VERY impressive sir. 

I dont mind buying used but I am worried about the gun being missed treated.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

It was one of my better days at the range and I have been shooting 1911s for a long time. Good shooting doesn't just happen, it is a function of a lot of practice and many, many rounds downrange. I see your target now and it looks like you just need to settle down and practice. Pick a quality gun with a decent sight radius a good trigger and begin the journey.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

I completely agree with that it took me a long time to get my stance down. It took me 4 years to get to where I am now in shooting. In 4-h I couldn't hit the target at 50ft with my dads old 22lr pump rifle. Then moved up to a scope cz? Gotten better but out grew the gun and got a savage scope and got it dialed in good all shooting on the weekend couldn't shoot every day

I normally dont shoot pistols by the way but I haven't shot like that on paper. with one I shoot mostly shoot cans or cardboard boxes.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

Look for a Glock 34. Decent trigger (and easy to make it very good), long sight radius, and mags and sights are cheap...


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I think the Glock 34 is a fine choice. The new G41 is nice also. Very smooth and low recoil.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

I despised Glocks for years and they still feel like a brick in my hand; however, they're damned effective and reasonably priced.

I even carry a Glock 30S...


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

How do you like the S? I carried a Glock 30 for a while several years ago, but found it to be just a little bit cumbersome, so I switched to the G27. Now I carry the Glock 19 Gen4, although for the last few weeks, I have been carrying the HK VP9.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

The reason I chose the 30S is it's near exactly the same size as a G-19 and will also fit many G-19 holsters. I carried compact 1911s (alloy framed) until I switched to the Glock...


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Your reasoning on the Glock is similar to mine. Almost exactly actually. I hated Glocks for years. Then I gave one an honest review and then it all made sense. It is a safe, reliable and accurate pistol for hundreds less than my Sigs. I've carried just about every Sig there is...well, at the time that is. My favorite is the P226 followed closely by the P229, but I carried the P220 and the P245 at one time. Sig didn't offer half the inventory they do now, and they had no polymer frame guns when I was carrying Sigs EDC. I've carried a variety of 1911s, but honestly prefer the old gov issue 5" to any of them. Even carried a little Kimber at one time. Nice little gun. 

In fact, my top choices in handguns are the 1911, BHP, P226, and the CZ-75. But I carry a Glock 19. It just makes more sense for me given their size, capacity, reliability and PRICE. I do have to say, however, that this HK VP9 is really becoming a favorite. It is a really really nice pistol. It may in fact dethrone my Glock, but I have not given up on it yet.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

NGIB said:


>


If you can find a pistol that can do this at 25 _yards_, rather than at 25 feet, then you'll have something you can call a "tack driver."

But, as has already been said: First, that kind of pistol shooting is more shooter-dependent than it is gun-dependent. Second, that kind of shooting requires a centerfire pistol that will cost a whole lot more than $600.00; thus you most likely will be satisfied with a .22 rimfire, at that price point.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

What would be the major difference on the glock 31 vs the g 17 gen 4? And the trigger pull was nice.

Also does the glock have a pic rail of some sort? If so its not like the ones I seen. (Eventuality the gun I get will get a light lazer combo)


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

The Glock 31 is .357 Sig, the Glock 17 is 9mm. All full and mid size gen 3 & 4 Glocks have a rail, only the old ones didn't...


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

doveslayer21 said:


> What would be the major difference on the glock 31 vs the g 17 gen 4? And the trigger pull was nice.
> 
> Also does the glock have a pic rail of some sort? If so its not like the ones I seen. (Eventuality the gun I get will get a light lazer combo)


One thing to keep in mind with the differences btwn the .357 Sig and the 9mm is price and availability of ammunition. The .357 Sig is considerably more expensive, when you can find it. The 9mm is usually plentiful (except when the nation is put in a panic b/c stupid politicians are swearing to take guns away and buying up all the ammo), and it is typically around $13-$15 per box of 50 practice rounds. That said, the .357 Sig is a much faster round, which is going to cause more of a shock. It is a very hot round.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Is this a good handgun? I shot the m and p version and hated it ...
S&W SD9 VE Semi Automatic Pistol 9mm Luger 4" Barrel 16 Round Capacity Polymer Grip Duo Tone Finish 223900
What about the tarus slim 707 its 273$ without tax etc from same site but its a little shorter then my liking


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok I found more brands on that site 
What are some ones that i should stay away from. As in never get it?

Also kel tech p11 any good?

guys I will add more info with the link and brand names. My phone is almost done (bat 2%


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

The SD9 VE is old technology, but it is a good gun. I would stay away from Taurus. Their quality is shaky, and the customer service sucks. The Kel-Tec is a decent pistol for the money, but not going to be an enjoyable pistol to shoot. Strictly a get back defense gun that hurts to shoot. If you want a good, inexpensive pistol, I really don't think you can beat the Ruger. Look at the LC9, but again, these pistols won't be very much fun to shoot. 


If you have shot the M&P, and hate it, I would really advise you to get your hands on some DA/SA guns. Sig, FN, Beretta, HK, CZ. You won't beat the CZ for the money. You can pick up a CZ-75B or Compact for around $500. Beretta 92fs will run you about $650, and Sigs and HKs will be more than $700 to upwards of $1200. 

For other striker fire, see if you can get your hands on a Glock, HK VP9, Walther PPQ and the Sig P320. All of these are quality guns for $650 or less. 

You really need to shoot all these guns, but at least the ones that feel good to you at the counter. You won't find a better feeling gun than the CZ-75 and the HK VP9. Both are the best guns I have ever felt to date, and both are really high quality guns for less than $650. As far as a really great shooting pistol goes, you really can't beat these two. For the money, the only other one I would compare to shootability and ergonomics would be the Beretta 92fs. It is a great gun. Very accurate, feels great in the hand, and comes in at about $650. These would really be my top three recommendations for you at this point based on what I think you're looking for.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

that 92fs the target i shot i put all bullets with in the head area at 8yrds and i havent shot like that in years the bottom was a springfield xdm 9mm and it was shooter error.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10710917_773865409319140_7086366336710347452_n.jpg?oh=59956f0cc5f647f53967fab316407e37&oe=54CBFC0E&__gda__=1423006520_b5868cb188f3991bb130783faccb1dca

gonna have to click the link to see picture.

i understand that in order to get a very good gun i am gonna have to drop the coin but hopefully i can get that 92fs after shooting it wow out of the ones i shot its nice that glock 17 is decent and had decent groups. but i will have to see what my piggy bank looks like. if i am close to say 600 i will buy the 92fs

so that p11 wont be good to shoot? and the pmr30 i hear bad things about the gun, and people will keep them dispite there issues but everyone says its fun to shoot though
. the ranges around my area doesnt even have a kel tech mostly glocks, sigs, and the other brands.

could a sig sp2022 be worked on? i would like the trigger to be tighter and a little lighter. from what the review says it has a decent amount of slack in the trigger.
see the trigger pull is 10lbs for DA and 5lb for SA. if i understand the DA is for when i first fire then the SA is for every shot after that? gonna have to read about that thread that talks about it more..

i will have to see if i can get my hands on a F&N, or a CZ

i have to ask but what about off brands i will list some and most may not be off brand by the way.
hi point?
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/6-0217245 rock island arms.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-G3321 ruger sr9
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-G250F9B sig p220 (um i like this one, plus i can change the parts out so i can swap out to a bigger cal for home defense, and swap to a 9mm for target shooting)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-G66929
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-GJS92F300M (found it the 92fs, not bad on price sad thing is no pic rail for attachments..)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-GBE9915RSL shot its bigger brother and it was a killer.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

It is an extremely accurate and reliable pistol. Why don't you find a CZ, a Glock and the HK VP9, and see which of those you like better than the 92fs. My guess is you'll stick with the 92fs. Great range/home defense/and even ok for carry. My only real gripe with the 92fs is the slide mounted safety. It's awkward for me, but it is really a great pistol.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Keep in mind that "little" pistols, for instance the Kel-Tec P11 you mentioned, are extremely difficult to shoot accurately, effectively, and well.
They are experts' guns, to be used by people who have already learned "all there is to know" about pistol shooting under serious pressure.

In no possible way would any affordable small pistol fill your requirement for a "tack driver."


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

ya plus i really dont want a small pistol, but for some reason i was liking that p11. and thanks for letting me know about it. i have yet to shoot like that. only time i been under pressure is in a competition.

gotta get my hands on that sig sp220 would be nice having home defense rounds and target shooting rounds. 

and on the 92fs could i add a light or laser to it?


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

If you get a 92fs with rails, yes. The Sig P220 is also a very nice gun, but will run you around $750-$900.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> It is an extremely accurate and reliable pistol. Why don't you find a CZ, a Glock and the HK VP9, and see which of those you like better than the 92fs. My guess is you'll stick with the 92fs. Great range/home defense/and even ok for carry. My only real gripe with the 92fs is the slide mounted safety. It's awkward for me, but it is really a great pistol.


which pistol are we talking about got many links up? i have used the safe on that and it was awkward for me as well. but i got used to it quick.

and sorry about all the links everybody saw so many and what about buying from cheaper then dirt?


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> If you get a 92fs with rails, yes. The Sig P220 is also a very nice gun, but will run you around $750-$900.


oh i didnt know they had it without i guess its a want rather then a need. and i noticed that cheaper and dirt had the p220 for 399. am i missing something


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

for 60 more i can get the one with the rail http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/3-0219018


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I was talking about the 92fs being extremely accurate and reliable. I recommended comparing the CZ-75B to it, and also the HK VP9. 

My dedicated home defense gun is a Glock 17 Gen4 with a TLR-1 gun mounted light. I carry the a Glock 19 Gen4 as my EDC gun, although I have been carrying the HK VP9 for the last few weeks. It is quickly becoming my favorite pistol. I also have a CZ-75B Omega which I love. The DA trigger pull is a little stiffer than that on the 92fs, but in SA mode it is smooth as silk, and it is also extremely accurate. It fits my hand better than the Beretta 92fs, and it is about $100 cheaper. 

You would be hard pressed to go wrong with any of these pistols. I really think you will like the HK VP9 (A LOT), but if you really like that 92fs, you might want to just settle on that one for now, and then after you become more proficient, start to acquire some of the other models. Of course, that is just my friendly recommendation.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

doveslayer21 said:


> for 60 more i can get the one with the rail Beretta M9A1 Semi Automatic Pistol 9mm Luger 4.9" Barrel 10 Rounds Checkered Polymer Grips Matte Blue Finish J9A4F11


That's a great deal. You'll have to pay an FFL fee, which should be no more than $35-$50, but that is probably your gun right there. To be honest, I'd do that. It is really a great pistol to start on. Truly!


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

doveslayer21 said:


> oh i didnt know they had it without i guess its a want rather then a need. and i noticed that cheaper and dirt had the p220 for 399. am i missing something


It could be a used pistol. The P220 was their flagship pistol, and it usually retails new for no less than $750. You may have been looking at the .22LR version though. It is $399 new.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

ok it says i can swap out the parts on the p250 so i can shoot different calibers The P250, a modular pistol that allows the shooter to change caliber and size at will. and its a 9mm. 

but it only talks about grips


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah, to be honest, I would not go with that Sig. I really think you'd be much happier with that 92fs. What guns have you shot to date?


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> That's a great deal. You'll have to pay an FFL fee, which should be no more than $35-$50, but that is probably your gun right there. To be honest, I'd do that. It is really a great pistol to start on. Truly!


thanks either that or the one without rail hopefully i can get the rail version but if not oh well. its cheaper and its the same gun? if i remember correctly the 92fs is the same platform as the m9.

that 92fs shot dang good vs the others not saying others that yall mentioned are bad but i havent found a range that has them. and i had a sight problem when i was shooting it (my contact lens went funky and i couldnt see clearly)


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah, the 92fs is the civilian version of the M9. Have you checked Buds Gun Shop?

Buy Beretta Pistols and Revolvers


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Yeah, to be honest, I would not go with that Sig. I really think you'd be much happier with that 92fs. What guns have you shot to date?


why is that? 
and yes i would buy it now if i could, and for that price man....

in order from best to last. yes i havent shot many brands besides my buddies guns. and i never really paid attention to the brand. just the way it shot but that was back in the day though when i was younger. 
92fs 
glock 17
springfield xdm
m & p 9mm (never again) trigger pull wasnt that great.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Yeah, the 92fs is the civilian version of the M9. Have you checked Buds Gun Shop?
> 
> Buy Beretta Pistols and Revolvers


no but thanks i am looking at the site now.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

doveslayer21 said:


> why is that?
> and yes i would buy it now if i could, and for that price man....
> 
> in order from best to last. yes i havent shot many brands besides my buddies guns. and i never really paid attention to the brand. just the way it shot but that was back in the day though when i was younger.
> ...


The Sig P250 isn't one of their better offerings. It's just not a quality gun in my opinion. Of the four you mentioned, my personal choice would be in this order:

Glock 17 Gen4 (Most popular 9mm pistol in the world. Very nice, reliable, accurate and safe)
S&W M&P9 (you can modify the trigger easily and it is NICE)
M9 (You'd be pleased with this right out of the box b/c it is so smooth and accurate. One of the best DA/SA available)
Springfield XDM (My least favorite of the four. It's ugly to me, and just not me.)

But it sounds to me like you're sold in that M9, and why not? I truly think it is a great beginner gun. It is very easy to shoot and maintain. It is proven battle tested reliable. It is very fun to shoot, a true pleasure. It's hard to go wrong with it.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> I was talking about the 92fs being extremely accurate and reliable. I recommended comparing the CZ-75B to it, and also the HK VP9.
> 
> My dedicated home defense gun is a Glock 17 Gen4 with a TLR-1 gun mounted light. I carry the a Glock 19 Gen4 as my EDC gun, although I have been carrying the HK VP9 for the last few weeks. It is quickly becoming my favorite pistol. I also have a CZ-75B Omega which I love. The DA trigger pull is a little stiffer than that on the 92fs, but in SA mode it is smooth as silk, and it is also extremely accurate. It fits my hand better than the Beretta 92fs, and it is about $100 cheaper.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to go wrong with any of these pistols. I really think you will like the HK VP9 (A LOT), but if you really like that 92fs, you might want to just settle on that one for now, and then after you become more proficient, start to acquire some of the other models. Of course, that is just my friendly recommendation.


i may end up buying that 92fs if i cant get my hands on anything else will make a great christmas present to me. but i am only a young person still. and will expand my collection when i can afford it.

gonna have to get my hands on that cz 75 i have found them cheaper then the 92fs


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> The Sig P250 isn't one of their better offerings. It's just not a quality gun in my opinion. Of the four you mentioned, my personal choice would be in this order:
> 
> Glock 17 Gen4 (Most popular 9mm pistol in the world. Very nice, reliable, accurate and safe)
> S&W M&P9 (you can modify the trigger easily and it is NICE)
> ...


thanks all it takes is shooting some rounds through it. ya that m9 i have put 30 rounds through one and it sold me. and it was fun to shoot. says it can do a 3" or less group at 55yrds. now thats decent.
plus the military uses it still right? been awhile since i kept up with what they shot. and if it holds to what they put one through one should last me a long time.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, if it were me, I'd get the CZ-75 over the 92fs. It just fits my hand better, and the safety is mounted on the frame, which I like a lot better. You can cock and lock it, or get the decocker version, but it is one heck of a smooth, accurate gun. If you ever get your hands on one you will fall in love. I think the ergonomics are better than anything I've held. I got mine new for $487. The DA trigger pull is hard at first, but it does loosen up, and you can actually install a new hammer spring that will take it down quite a bit, but in the SA mode, it is money. Smooth, accurate, and just plain badass dude. Seriously!


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Well, if it were me, I'd get the CZ-75 over the 92fs. It just fits my hand better, and the safety is mounted on the frame, which I like a lot better. You can cock and lock it, or get the decocker version, but it is one heck of a smooth, accurate gun. If you ever get your hands on one you will fall in love. I think the ergonomics are better than anything I've held. I got mine new for $487. The DA trigger pull is hard at first, but it does loosen up, and you can actually install a new hammer spring that will take it down quite a bit, but in the SA mode, it is money. Smooth, accurate, and just plain badass dude. Seriously!


i am gonna have to try and find one, the range i went to didnt have a rent model. if i love both man, its a tough call. i should be able to find one to shoot.

would dry fire rounds work in testing a gun? most gun stores have them (yall know what i mean right?)


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Not really. Nothing substitutes actually shooting. If you can't get your hands on the CZ, you can't go wrong with the 92fs. You wouldn't have to do anything to it; and you can get one with rails, which is really what you want to put your light/laser on anyway. Just go on and get the 92fs bro! You won't regret it.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

oh and whats 
P+ or +P+ in 9mm ammo?


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

GCBHM said:


> Not really. Nothing substitutes actually shooting. If you can't get your hands on the CZ, you can't go wrong with the 92fs. You wouldn't have to do anything to it; and you can get one with rails, which is really what you want to put your light/laser on anyway. Just go on and get the 92fs bro! You won't regret it.


ya both are very good guns from what yall say. but if i cant get the rail model on the 92fs oh well. the rail is a want rather then a need but if can get the rail model i will though.

plus i find my hand placement which is in front of the trigger guard may get in the way of having a light or laser (i havent shot one with the attachments though so i am not sure). 
the model i shot didnt have the rail on it.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

hey i got a question is the bretta px4 storm any good? vs the 92fs


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

I like the 92's much more... not as bulky. I really like the open slide direct feed design myself too.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

also thinking about the fns as well. i want to have more options just incase i cant get the 92fs wich is 530

the cz without rail.
CZ-USA 75B Omega Semi Automatic Handgun 9mm Luger 4.6" Barrel 16 Rounds Polymer Grips Steel Frame 91135

fns or 530 for the long slide
FNH FNS-9 Semi Automatic Pistol 9mm Luger 4" Barrel 10 Rounds Polymer Frame Matte Black No Manual Safety 66756


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

ok would this be any different size wise compared to the 92fs with rail? 
Beretta 96A1 Semi Automatic Pistol .40 S&W 4.9" Barrel 10 Rounds Checkered Polymer Grips Matte Blue Finish J9A4F11


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

doveslayer21 said:


> ok would this be any different size wise compared to the 92fs with rail?
> Beretta 96A1 Semi Automatic Pistol .40 S&W 4.9" Barrel 10 Rounds Checkered Polymer Grips Matte Blue Finish J9A4F11


Nope, Identical.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

While the 92 is a fun gun, I have always preferred the version made by Taurus as I like the frame mounted versus the slide mounted safety. While I am not a huge fan of Taurus, and I will never own one of their poly guns again, their 92 and 1911 guns are just dandy. Here's a beater I've had for many years and didn't pay much for. I have thousands of rounds through this one...


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

nice, and its cheaper than a 92a1

also saw this in my gun magazine and kinda liked it but its not that great out the box
Diamondback DB FS Nine Semi Auto Pistol 9mm 4.75" Barrel 15 Rounds Polymer Frame Black DB9FS

after finding this site again from my gun magazine i am leaning towards glock looks like i can make a top notch shooter. and have a insanely light trigger pull. 
Glock Custom Parts and Accessories

ok now i got another issue, .40 s&w is about .20 cents more for the same brand. but i am prob gonna keep with a 9mm since I haven't shot a .40 and most guns cost more in the caliber


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Just me rambling. ..
Out of the box I would take that 92fs vs the glock 17 but since I can tweak the g17 now its really tough.
On the other hand say I invest around 200 for glock parts on top of what I paid for it. Might end up being the same compared to the 92fs

On that bretta 92fs/m9 could it be tweaked lighter trigger. Better spring. Like what I could do with the glock
I love the feel of both guns, but out the box 92fs felt great and shot great. But I will have to shoot the glock 17 again man I wish there was a cheaper way to test fire guns. 

Off topic but what pistol does the army use. Used to it was the m9, but do they still use it today?


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

The military still uses the M9 and likely will for the foreseeable future. I'd think less about "tweaking" and more about what works for you and what you shoot well. Bottom line is a first gun is just that - a first gun. If you decide you want something else you get something else...


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

see both guns shot well. but before i make the call i need to shoot them again. 
but with the glock aftermarket the gun could be way better.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Being newer to handguns, i'd be careful "tweaking" a trigger pull to be too light. Only competition shooters with years of experience should be using extremely light trigger mods. AD'S (accidental discharges) happen all the time. Having a very light trigger only increases the chances of having an AD, especially with new shooters.

Good luck with your search.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> Being newer to handguns, i'd be careful "tweaking" a trigger pull to be too light. Only competition shooters with years of experience should be using extremely light trigger mods. AD'S (accidental discharges) happen all the time. Having a very light trigger only increases the chances of having an AD, especially with new shooters.
> 
> Good luck with your search.


thanks shocking how tough my search is going. that savage .22lr with accu trigger. it was insanely light maybe 3lbs or less. it was a 2 stage trigger with very little slack, once i got the motion down, pull the safety trigger back then put the cross hairs where i want them and gently pull the trigger never had an issue with AD.

but i do agree that to light and it can cause issues and if i remember correctly the glock 17 had a dual safety 2 stage trigger?
. but from what the bretta shot like it felt good i still need to find that cz75 
, but yet i cant find any specs about the trigger pull on that 92fs.

also watching the video of a glock 17 6 shots 2 per target took 2seconds a modded g17 with the 2lb trigger setup. took 1.8seconds to do the same. that makes a difference when you wanna get lead down range the fastest.

back to the 92fs, found this off there website, Beretta 92FS/96 Picatinny Rail System also found some grips with a built in laser in them or i can get this LaserMax Guide Rod Laser for Beretta 92 series

also found out most holsters wont work with a 92 with the rail. i do plan on getting something that will fit on my belt loop but thats not a needed item right now.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

well a good buddy of mine, he isnt really brand loyal to anything he get whats works for him, he was telling me about glocks, and they had the highest AD rate, why is that? i assume lack of safety on the gun. (well the trigger safe)

how are these? 
FN FNS-9 Semi Automatic Pistol 9mm Luger 4" Barrel 17 Rounds Polymer Grip Matte Black Finish G66752

i havent shot them let alone held one.

i dont mind getting that 92fs but i want at least more options, yall have gave me some great info. just i cant try those. and i really dont like spending close to $50 at the range each time. (involves testing 3 guns and a box of ammo)

from what i read all the guns are great. and man i need more coin to test. yes i can get the one i shot and loved but if i can save a few 100 depending on how each gun shoots and how it fits 
92fs (tested)
cz-75b
desert eagle http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-GMRFA4011FL
the fns9


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

doveslayer21 said:


> well a good buddy of mine...was telling me about glocks, and they had the highest AD rate, why is that?...


While I am not sure that Glock users truly experience "the highest AD rate," I can make an experience-based observation or two.

First, a "high AD rate" is hardly ever the fault of the pistol. It might be the fault of a poorly engineered design, but, nowadays, such a product probably would not be allowed to leave the factory of a conscientious manufacturer like Glock.
Second, a "high AD rate" can never be the fault of the pistol's lack of a safety lever. The only effective safety device in the world exists in your own head, right between your ears. If it is functioning, there cannot be an AD (actually an _N_D: _Negligent_ Discharge). Ever.
Third, the Glock pistol has very effective safety devices, all of which work quite well. (Truth: I do not own a Glock...nor would I. They don't fit my hands.)

A "high AD rate," or, indeed, any ND, can only be the result of a lack of training, lack of practice, or lack of common sense on the part of the user.

It is, of course, all too human to blame the device for the faults of its user.
That's what your "good buddy" is doing, either because he committed a ND with a Glock, or because he has uncritically accepted incomplete news of that happening to others.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

Let's call an AD by the correct name. It's an ND, for negligent discharge. If you don't break the 4 rules, the gun only goes bang when you want it to.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Smitty79 said:


> Let's call an AD by the correct name. It's an ND, for negligent discharge. If you don't break the 4 rules, the gun only goes bang when you want it to.


Good point, that.
Thanks!

I went back and edited my post to conform with your suggestion for revision.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> While I am not sure that Glock users truly experience "the highest AD rate," I can make an experience-based observation or two.
> 
> First, a "high AD rate" is hardly ever the fault of the pistol. It might be the fault of a poorly engineered design, but, nowadays, such a product probably would not be allowed to leave the factory of a conscientious manufacturer like Glock.
> Second, a "high AD rate" can never be the fault of the pistol's lack of a safety lever. The only effective safety device in the world exists in your own head, right between your ears. If it is functioning, there cannot be an AD (actually an _N_D: _Negligent_ Discharge). Ever.
> ...


Good points Steve, Incidents with Glock's are normally negligent discharges. However, Glock's quick point and shoot design with no manual safety and(at least with stock models and lighter disconnects) leaves a trigger pull ranging from 3.5 to 5.5 pounds, essentially comparable to carrying around a 1911 cocked and unlocked, or a 92fs in single action.

A design where you must first pull the trigger before removing the slide(many ND's are attributed to this) being the operator fails to safety check the weapon before breaking it down. If something gets to that trigger such as a jacket waist cord, a crease of a worn leather holster, or even if you drop it and try to catch it on it's way down it can go bang without your intent(all the scenarios mentioned have been documented).

I guess in wrapping this up no one can argue that Glock's ease of use, somewhat light and short trigger pull and no external safeties have advantages, but in that same design, it likewise leads itself to be more likely to have ND's than other designs. And yes, we as humans make mistakes from time to time. That being said, Glock's are excellent firearms and millions and millions own them with no ND's to their credit.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> While I am not sure that Glock users truly experience "the highest AD rate," I can make an experience-based observation or two.
> 
> First, a "high AD rate" is hardly ever the fault of the pistol. It might be the fault of a poorly engineered design, but, nowadays, such a product probably would not be allowed to leave the factory of a conscientious manufacturer like Glock.
> Second, a "high AD rate" can never be the fault of the pistol's lack of a safety lever. The only effective safety device in the world exists in your own head, right between your ears. If it is functioning, there cannot be an AD (actually an _N_D: _Negligent_ Discharge). Ever.
> ...


i agree with that, but from what another buddy of mine said, he holstered his glock 19, and shot his floor. 
he is gun safe (not sure what all he did to make it go off), but still there is human error for everything.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Glocks, and other pistols with similar trigger actions, experience while-holstering NDs when the user either forgets to pull his finger out of the gun's trigger-guard, or he doesn't notice that some foreign object (perhaps a shirt tail) has inadvertently entered the trigger-guard.

If the user's trigger finger is correctly placed (outside the trigger-guard, but preventing trigger access) such NDs can be prevented...if the holster's leather is still properly stiff.
This is a function of that safety mechanism in the user's head, between his ears.

And, yes, I have been guilty of two NDs, during my shooting life so far. Neither one threatened any life, and only one did any (minor) damage.


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

thanks..

ok back to gun talk, found the desert eagle in 9mm which i love plus 9mm is better for target shooting which is what the gun will be used for. 
Magnum Research MR9 Eagle, 15 Round, 4.5-Inch Barrel - Style # MRFA915FL, MRI Shop / Firearms
or i can get the .40s&w for about a 100 less, same look expect its the mr40. (has anybody shot one? like this) also found this one in 9mm for same cost as the mr9 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-GBE9915RL besides action type whats the difference.

havent shot the little brother to the regular desert eagle .44mag but either way the muzzle jump was bad shot it for the first time several years ago and almost hit myself in the head (now its more controlled but still bad, fun to shoot though)

gonna be a tough choice due to both guns are nice.

but looking at the guns with the same options only the bretta has a longer barrel and is DA/SA
the bretta m9 witch is close to 600 (which i love shooting (92fs model 529)
the mr9 is 529 or mr40 witch is 469

man i dont know

edit not sure which one is right.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_38/products_id/72959 (4"barrel) or this.http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-MR9-Eagle-15-Round-45-Inch-Barrel.asp (which i love the look of the gun like that)


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## doveslayer21 (Sep 29, 2014)

hoping to figure out which one i should get. 

either the mr40 which is less or the mr9 which is more but hard to find with the new slide profile.
or just get the bretta


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