# 40 caliber question



## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

Is there a light load for the 40 that doesn't compromise its power and effectiveness, but lessens the recoil? I heard somewhere about a 115g or 124g. Is there something like this available? I've been told this would make the 40 shoot like a 9mm, but hit like a 40!


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

You are going to wake up in a few minutes.

The cake you ate isn't around anymore either.

If you want a 9 get a 9.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

TOF said:


> You are going to wake up in a few minutes.
> 
> The cake you ate isn't around anymore either.
> 
> If you want a 9 get a 9.


:smt023:smt023

What's the deal? In another thread you said you were getting a Sig or M&P in 9mm or .45, now you're talking .40. It seems to me you're getting your brain too full of all the BS information out there Get to a range, rent the guns in calibers and models that interest you, get the one *you* shoot best, and the hell with what all the "experts" say about _stopping power, minimum capacity, must have calibers, etc. _


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

TOF said:


> If you want a 9 get a 9.


:smt023Well said.


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## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

I asked a question. Does anyone have an answer without ridicule? I live in northeast PA. I know of nowhere to rent a gun. Matter of fact, the only range I use is a state game range. Even private clubs of which i'm on the waiting list don't rent guns. I must research and decide from handling the gun at my lgs. I try to filter through the imput " experts" give me. One such expert suggested the facts in my question. I ask to see if its bs or you have heard of this. Isn't this the purpose of a forum???


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

It's really easy to get caught up in what people post in forums. Everyone has a preference and some will go as far as to say that it is the gospel and nothing else is true or correct. 

While there is a wealth if information out there on the net and at gun ranges.But none of it will mean a thing until you put hands on weapon and lead down range. a .40 is a little more to hold on to in many of the more modern designed weapons. These weapons often have lighter frames and that lost weight will transfer into more recoil. Poly frames,alloys, compact weapons with tiny barrels that are poly or an alloy, will all mean more recoil.

Steel frames and/or longer barrels mean more weight and will help calm down recoil. But with this you get more weight hanging off of you if you are carrying the weapon. This might not be your cup of tea. Also a high capacity weapon means more with, at least until you do the emptying part (one of my personally favorite things to do with a handgun).

The recoil from a 45 is different then a .40 that's different than a 9mm that's different than a 380 and so on. The plethora of designs and building materials will all effect that. You need to feel all of these or at least as many as possible to see what feels best in your hand. Then once you have a few that the feel is fine it's great to toss some rounds down range to see if you manage the recoil OK. Then you will know what you're looking for when you get to the shop.

If you don't like snappier recoils stay away from poly frames with shorter barrels chambered in .40 or a 357 Sig. You might not like it. A 9mm is not a lot of recoil no mater what type weapon you get.a 45ACP while a bigger load has a different type of recoil so many find it easily manageable in smaller or lighter weapons.

Personally my taste in carry weapons is pretty large but I do have two smaller weapons I like ot carry a lot. The Commander length 1911 with a 4.75" bbl n 45 is easily carried and the load is not bad on a wrist at all even though the pistol does have an alloy frame. The other is a 229 Sig (no rail) in .40. Even though the 40 is a little shorter and the round a little snappier it's not a problem to fire at all. Even with hotter loads that for some reason I really like and so does the weapon.

If you don't have a lot of experience try a 9mm and when you get your sea legs under you a little better you can try something else if you want to. Many like the 9mm though and never try anything else. It's a good round no matter what the people that shoot 45's, 40's 1mm's 357 Sigs. It had plenty of "stopping power". If you get shot by a 9mm it will hurt really bad. It moves pretty darn quick and is accurate.

I have a friend that for some reason believes everything he sees on a web page na it caused him to trade guns so fast he never had anything for more than a couple weeks. Needles to say he is a crappy shot being he never took the time to learn how to shoot any of the weapons he had. Most will sight different but he didn't care because it was a 9mm and there was this guy that was shot 12 times with one and walked away:smt083 so he had to get a 45. After the caliber war he fought and lost it was you can't use a Glock because this guy had one and the polymers broke down because of UV light...Or maybe it was not enough light..Anyway it blew up and took out a bus full of nuns holding babies! So not he needed a CZ because they were the strongest frames due to a secret alchemist working for them making a secret alloy that was 35x stronger than steel but so light that you had to tie it down so i would not float away.

Any weapon made by any reputable company will do what you want it to do. Find the one that fits your hand best and you're on your way.Load any round made by a reputable ammo maker and it will work great! and get out to the range and try not to go broke sending all the ammo you can down range.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I am not saying any of that to be mean or anything. I've seen many many posts like yours and was hoping that it would help make your choosing a little easier. There are a lot of people on forums that know a whole lot. Especially on this forum. But like any other web forum there are going to be posts tooting the horn for the flavor of the month. You ask what weapon you should get and you will get 560 posts saying "I have the brand X in 9mm and it's the best" and so on. Nothing I will say can put a weapon in your hand and make it fit. Only you can do that. As far as caliber type to keep in mind the earlier post. Know what you are going to use the weapon for (range toy, CC, night stand gun, truck gun etc). If you can shoot what you get your hands on. If you can't I advise going smaller than larger when it comes to caliber. Many people get a .40 and find out they don't like it. I love a 40 but they are not for everyone. I love a 45 even more. But I know what I'm getting into when I pick it up because I've been there before.


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## viper101 (Feb 22, 2007)

I use to not like the .40 until i tried a Glock 27. I shot 155gr. ammo out of my G27 and i shoot it just as well as my G19 with 124gr.

if you want a .40 get one if you want something that will not have as much recoil get a 9mm.

not all guns will shoot and feel the same i have shot some .40 that had more recoil then my 10mm G20.

I would recommend that you get ether a Glock or a S&W M&P

next you need to decide what you are going to use the gun for if it is just a range gun then get a full size like a G17, G22, M&P40 - Full Size, M&P9 - Full Size.

if it is going to be a CCW get something like a G23, G19, G27, G26 or M&P40c - Compact Size, M&P9c - Compact Size


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

nailer said:


> I asked a question. Does anyone have an answer without ridicule? I live in northeast PA. I know of nowhere to rent a gun. Matter of fact, the only range I use is a state game range. Even private clubs of which i'm on the waiting list don't rent guns. I must research and decide from handling the gun at my lgs. I try to filter through the imput " experts" give me. One such expert suggested the facts in my question. I ask to see if its bs or you have heard of this. Isn't this the purpose of a forum???


I've never seen bullet weights for 40S&W in the 115g-125g range, and it's logical to assume this is because the 9mm offers these bullet weights already. There might be some bullet manufacturers which offer these weights, but you're probably going to pay top dollar for them since the demand for them is relatively non-existent (again, who would buy these when they can get them in 9mm?). I'm certain factory target loads do not come in these grains for 40S&W, so you'll be defaulted to the popular weights (155, 165, 180) anytime you want to shoot. Incidentally, the lowest weight for 40S&W I've seen commercially is 135g, and the difference in recoil is not significantly different from the 180g. The nature of the cartridge itself revolves around high pressures pushing out a relatively large bullet, and I don't think there's any avoiding it.

As Todd put it, you're asking for the cake and wanting to eat it, too. If 40S&W recoil bothers you, then get a 9mm. Don't trust the ramblings of an "expert" whom, after hearing this, I suspect is salivating to make a sale and feeding you a load of horse manure in order to do so.


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## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

That's what I'm talking about. You answered my question. Even if my info about that particular 40 ammo is correct, it"s no better than a 9mm. I get it. It would defeat the purpose of a 40, which is more power. Thanks.


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## wickedrider (May 1, 2009)

Here's a link that you may find of interest.

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/apr96shoot.html


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

90% of our adult male and female population can if they choose handle a .38, 9MM, .40S&W or .45ACP.

If you are new to shooting and as indicated have no way of trying anything before buying I reccomend you start with a 9MM in Semi Auto or .38 Revolver. If over time you feel you need more power get a second gun.

They all work for plinking/target shooting and they all work for defensive purposes.

tumbleweed


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Man, any excuse to to get another one always works for me :smt023

The man speaks the truth..+1


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## SaltyDog (Jan 1, 2009)

nailer said:


> That's what I'm talking about. You answered my question. Even if my info about that particular 40 ammo is correct, it"s no better than a 9mm. I get it. It would defeat the purpose of a 40, which is more power. Thanks.


I love shooting the 40 S&W I have 2 of them and recoil is no issue for me. I carry the 40 in the fall and winter when I can cover it up and in the summer will be carrying a little 9mm. Literaltrance is correct - I've shot the 155, 165, and 180 grain and no difference but I've never seen the 135gr so I cannot speak on that.

Nailer consider this - if you buy a semi-auto like the Sig P229 or Glock 23 in 40 S&W and you cannot shoot well with them because of the recoil you can then purchase a 9mm drop in barrel, some new 9 mm magazines and wahlah you have a 9mm! On the other hand if you purchase a 9mm you cannot make it a 40 caliber. I only talk about the Glock and Sig because I know them - there may be others you can do this with. Just a thought.

I have drop in barrels for both my 40 cal semi's to shoot the cheaper 9mm round at the range.

I'm like goldilocks and the 3 bears - 9mm is too soft, 45 is too hard, 40 is juuuussst right.


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## Steve2112 (Nov 19, 2008)

SaltyDog said:


> I love shooting the 40 S&W I have 2 of them and recoil is no issue for me. I carry the 40 in the fall and winter when I can cover it up and in the summer will be carrying a little 9mm. Literaltrance is correct - I've shot the 155, 165, and 180 grain and no difference but I've never seen the 135gr so I cannot speak on that.
> 
> I'm like goldilocks and the 3 bears - 9mm is too soft, 45 is too hard, 40 is juuuussst right.


I'm kind like this. I have two .40s, and I like shooting them. Recoil has never been that big of an issue with me, though it is more noticable in my Taurus PT140 than in my Beretta 96. Since the 96 is a bigger metal frame, this is to be expected. I have run all those loads through my .40s, and I have never really noticed any measurable difference on recoil. Honestly, I doubt even if a 115gr existed, it would be much lighter in recoil. You still have the same powder charge in it. I suppose you could have some handloads with a light powder load to help produce lighter recoil, but that really doesn't seem like a good solution.


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## nailer (Apr 26, 2009)

I visited my lgs today. I held and examined what they had and the store had many. The one that was most comfortable was the Sig 250 compact. For a so-called compact, it is over 7 inches long. The grip was good and the slide racked easily. This model was a 40. I also handled a 229 and blackwater model. The Glock 26 also felt good. This will be my range gun and home defense gun. The store has no 9mm, or 380 ammo. It does have 40 and 45.The Glock 26 is $499 and the Sig( with night sites), $559. I was told the Sig is really hard to get these days. I will think about over the weekend, but I definitely like that Sig 250!


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

nailer said:


> I visited my lgs today. I held and examined what they had and the store had many. The one that was most comfortable was the Sig 250 compact. For a so-called compact, it is over 7 inches long. The grip was good and the slide racked easily. This model was a 40. I also handled a 229 and blackwater model. The Glock 26 also felt good. This will be my range gun and home defense gun. The store has no 9mm, or 380 ammo. It does have 40 and 45.The Glock 26 is $499 and the Sig( with night sites), $559. I was told the Sig is really hard to get these days. I will think about over the weekend, but I definitely like that Sig 250!


Double-check the Sig to make sure you're getting tritium Siglite nightsights and not the glow in the dark photo luminescent crap. There have been reports on this site alone where buyers of new Sig P250s did NOT get tritium sights.


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## SaltyDog (Jan 1, 2009)

Take a deep breath and don't be in a rush. The Sigs are available and if your dealer doesn't have one you can order it on line and have it sent to a local FFL.

While you're deciding check out the Glock and the Sig forums here. They are full of great information.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Answering the OP....

Lighter bullets do NOT equal lighter recoil. Percieved recoil is mostly the "snap", not the "push".

The classic example... 147 gr 9mm bullets, over less powder, have less recoil than a 115gr bullet over more powder.

If I wanted to shoot a "light recoil" 40, I'd go to a 200gr bullet, and load it down. Make it feel like a 45. If you do not reload, you're at the mercy of the factories, which all load for power, power, power... And just make perfectly effective ammo MORE annoying to shoot.

My 147gr 9mm reloads, chugging along at a jaw-dropping 850fps, would be PLENTY deadly if I needed to shoot them for defensive use, which I don't...

JeffWard


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Sig Sauer makes a really nice weapon. The two I have (229 in .40 and a 226 in 9mm) have been flawless. I'm no fan of the 380 mainly because the weapons usually have a lot of muzzle flip for such a small round. Lot of people like and use them though so it's not like it's a bad round. Just not one I would want to carry around.

If you look around you might be able to find a CPO Sig around 500-550. Glock makes a good pistol too. There's no denying their record. I think it was me I'd look at an MP though if a poly framed striker fired weapon was on my list. The ability to change the back straps to get the best fit for you is hard to overlook. Personally the only poly framed weapon I care for all that much is the Browning Pro (if you can find them) or their FN brother the FN. But I like having a hammer and the decock and safety are a plus for a lot of people. I have one of the Browning Pro 40's and got a pretty good deal on it. Seeing what gunbroker wants for them these days compared to the price of a new FNP is a little confusing though. The few Browning Pro's I have seen for sale run about 750 for a 40 and 650 for the 9 while you can get the FNP 425-500. Other than the name they are the same gun from what I can see. Dang nice shooter though. It's the only poly frame I have and the only one I want. Other than maybe the FNP 45:mrgreen:


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## mikecu (May 22, 2009)

*.40*



nailer said:


> Is there a light load for the 40 that doesn't compromise its power and effectiveness, but lessens the recoil? I heard somewhere about a 115g or 124g. Is there something like this available? I've been told this would make the 40 shoot like a 9mm, but hit like a 40!


Have you actually fired a .40 yet? I think that it is a great all around caliber.

One thing to consider, 9mm is cheaper to shoot. If you are going to start shooting on a regular basis, the price of the ammo might help steer you.


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## mikecu (May 22, 2009)

*Well?*



nailer said:


> I visited my lgs today. I held and examined what they had and the store had many. The one that was most comfortable was the Sig 250 compact. For a so-called compact, it is over 7 inches long. The grip was good and the slide racked easily. This model was a 40. I also handled a 229 and blackwater model. The Glock 26 also felt good. This will be my range gun and home defense gun. The store has no 9mm, or 380 ammo. It does have 40 and 45.The Glock 26 is $499 and the Sig( with night sites), $559. I was told the Sig is really hard to get these days. I will think about over the weekend, but I definitely like that Sig 250!


What did you end up getting?


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Just buy the gun that you like, along with very good ear protection and lots of ammo, and start shooting it.

You can easily get used to any non-magnum caliber by concentrating on making the bullet go where you aim...not trying to measure recoil. Once you learn trigger control and sight picture, your concentration on holding your 'platform' stationary while easing back on the trigger should occupy all your senses, making recoil more or less an insignificant side issue. 

Here's a method that works pretty well for new shooters: 

Start out shooting up close, from a rested position, and concentrate on keeping both eyes open and not blinking or jerking. It's natural to flinch, and you have to de-sensitize yourself to it by willing yourself to keep the sight picture on the bullseye as your trigger finger moves smoothly through its motion. When you can fire without moving anything but the trigger finger, and still be staring at the bullseye, after recoil, then you can stand up and shoot at more distant targets. You may have to do this several times, if you don't get to practice a lot, but it is a good way to make yourself slow down and pay attention to fundamentals.

Personally, I don't bother with .40's, because similar ballistics can be achieved with 9mm or .45 ACP, both of which have been around for ~100 years and have been kept up to date with modern technologies. 

But, there is nothing wrong with the .40 S&W, so if that's what the gun is that you like, just buy it and get used to it.


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## junkit_boy (Jun 6, 2008)

if you can find any ammo...buy that cal. handgun :anim_lol::anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## Spokes (Jun 1, 2008)

literaltrance said:


> Double-check the Sig to make sure you're getting tritium Siglite nightsights and not the glow in the dark photo luminescent crap. There have been reports on this site alone where buyers of new Sig P250s did NOT get tritium sights.


I got those make believe night sights on my HK45C. Love the gun hate the sights.


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## Cybertoad (Jul 11, 2009)

Newbie comments.
I was talking with a guy whom I got my 229 40 165/fmj ( sw ammo)

he said the recoil was less then his 357 or 45.
I read all over conflicting reports.

Example, ( please correct me if I am wrong but heres my take)

I have a nice Savage Mark11 22LR 10 clip with bolt action. solid black.
My father in law has the exact gun but in a 1.17 model.
His has a tad amount of recoil and is louder with the same basic grain ammo.
I realize why that may happen more grain out of a smaller barrel creates more velocity hence more 
power at the end. However this is my point even the smallest variation can be different.

I have heard ppl say a p229 40 with 165/fmj has average recoil 
some say its fine and recoil isn't really a consideration.

I think allot of what a gun / rifle feels like is subjective to the person pulling the trigger.
Try them out see what you like.

40 sounds cooler then 9mm LOL


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

Cybertoad said:


> Newbie comments.
> I was talking with a guy whom I got my 229 40 165/fmj ( sw ammo)
> 
> he said the recoil was less then his 357 or 45.
> ...


It is different for all people. The .40 round in most weapons is a little more snappy than a 9mm but for me in something like my P229 Sig it's not any bog deal. It's not a big deal in my Para P16. It is more noticeable in my Browning Pro 40 but it's a poly framed weapon. I has less weight. Still though I like the round and shoot it pretty regularly. For most people I say check it out. You might like it. If recoil is a big issue in your handgun buying mind then you might want to get a 9mm.


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## falchunt (May 8, 2009)

I have also shot the 229, last weekend actually, and I didn't think the difference in recoil was much different than a 9mm. I personally chose to get a 9mm because it is cheaper to shoot, and I plan on doing a lot of that....


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

DevilsJohnson said:


> It is different for all people. The .40 round in most weapons is a little more snappy than a 9mm but for me in something like my P229 Sig it's not any bog deal. It's not a big deal in my Para P16. It is more noticeable in my Browning Pro 40 but it's a poly framed weapon. I has less weight. Still though I like the round and shoot it pretty regularly. For most people I say check it out. You might like it. If recoil is a big issue in your handgun buying mind then you might want to get a 9mm.


Devil's right: it depends on the shooter. I think it also depends on the gun. Shooting 40S&W from a P226 is quite different than shooting it from a G27. Apples and oranges some say, but there is a difference.

The 40S&W has a bad rep in my house.. When I decided to get into handgun ownership, I purchased a Glock 22 and shot 100-200 rounds a week. It didn't take long for a bone spur to form in my main-hand thumb (grip thumb). After some serious pain and thought, I started shooting some friends' handguns as well as some range-rented ones and quickly realized both 9mm and 45ACP calibers are more forgiving on the hands. Later I did some research and found out the 40S&W had the highest pressures of all three. This was all I needed to explain the bone spur and the pain (also due to lots of shooting, of course... I can't blame it all on the caliber).

I think most people who claim they don't feel the difference between 40S&W and 45ACP just don't shoot enough of these rounds to notice. At the same time, the differences between 9mm/40S&W/45ACP are pretty small in the grand scheme of things, and all serve their intended purpose regardless of their minor differences.

If your range time is only once a month or so, and you're going to shoot less than 200 rounds per trip, you probably won't notice much of a difference. If you plan on shooting more than that, you probably will notice more of a difference, and so will your wallet. Bad guys won't be able to tell the difference if you do your part.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

You're exactly right. THe weapon makes a huge difference. The 40 round in my P16 is no big deal at all. But it's a double stacked 1911 type thing. All steel frame. The same rounds in my Browning Pro 40 are more easily felt but it is a poly frame and has a hammer so the dreaded higher bore axis comes into play. So you not only have the person as a variable but the weapon type that the persona is holding. What they perceive as a lot of recoil combined with the actual felt recoil due to size and weight of the weapon.


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