# Just shot my bedroom wall with 147gr. Winchester - results were very disappointing.



## Hulsey76 (Apr 12, 2011)

OK...I'm new to the forum, and this is my first post. Let me begin by saying hello to everyone who may read this. My name is Michael, and I'm a firearms enthusiast (addict). 

So here's what happened that inspired me joining a forum: 

I often dry-fire my pistols to train trigger control. I often do this indoors, in my bedroom. Today, I snatched up my Sig Pro 2022, lined up my front sight, and pressed the trigger like I always do. BLAM! What the ???? I didn't safety check the weapon. There was a live round in the chamber.  I feel S.T.U.P.I.D. :smt082

The round, a Winchester Ranger SXT 147gr., went through a bottle of water, a glass bottle of my wife's perfume, and hit the wall paneling. I immediately went into the hall to see the exit hole, wondering how much drywall work I would be doing tomorrow. No exit. I inspected the point of impact more closely and found the taloned jacket lying on the dresser. The bullet appears to have disintegrated when it struck the pine paneling. The paneling looks to be about 3/8 thick, but it's solid pine, not laminate. 

The good news is that there is no damage to my wall. The bad news is that I have trusted this ammo to save my life for over a year now. Does this seem like less than inspiring performance from this round to anyone here? Now I have to explain this to my wife......:buttkick:


----------



## johnr (Jun 13, 2008)

honey, i realy don't like that perfume you have been using.......here is one i realy like.....it's a little expensive......

good luck with that!


----------



## talldrink (Dec 21, 2010)

NO! The good news is that no one was hurt/killed.


----------



## Hulsey76 (Apr 12, 2011)

talldrink said:


> NO! The good news is that no one was hurt/killed.


 I kinda figured that went without saying. Lesson learned though.


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Sorry to say,this, but this is not the kind of information that helps this forum. The OP related a story that is a result of a total lack of safety and a total ignorance of firearms safety, for what... an introduction? Please, go somewhere else to peddle your idiocy.

Sorry for being harsh, but I'm getting tired of hearing these types of introductions on a wide spread of forums lately. I'm seriously starting to think they are anti gun plants.


----------



## AirForceShooter (May 6, 2006)

I disagree.
This recounting of this act is very relevant.
ANYBODY can have this happen.
All it takes is a momentary loss of attention.


That's the point.

AFS


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

AirForceShooter said:


> I disagree.
> This recounting of this act is very relevant.
> ANYBODY can have this happen.
> *All it takes is a momentary loss of attention.*
> ...


That truly* IS *the point. I may have come off a bit harsh, but like I said, there's been a run on these kinds of post on many different forums. It may well be attributed to the introduction of many new shooters as of late but that's not what concerns me. What concerns me is the jovial nature of describing the negligent discharge (yes negligent, not accident) as a concern about his carry ammo.

There's no room for error or loss of attention when handling weapons. It's by pure luck and the grace of God that no one was injured in this incident. Here's a few things that I picked up from the OP:

1. Did not check the weapon prior to pulling the trigger.
2. Did not DOUBLE check the weapon prior to pulling the trigger.
3. Did not ensure a safe backstop (apparently there's a hallway on the other side of the wall he hit)

There really is no excuse for an ND. You ALWAYS check the status of a firearm before doing anything with it. It's pretty simple and it doesn't take a whole lot of concentration to remember to do so. Doubly so, there's no reason to practice dry firing your weapon when it's pointed at something where other people might be (hallway). There's a reason they say to make sure of your backstop, even when it's "unloaded". Having read this and many other accounts, we know just how dangerous an "unloaded" gun can be. Many accounts (not this one) start off just that way.. "I thought it was unloaded".

The fact that the OP's main concern was that the round did not perform as he would have expected is just mind boggling to me. I'd be more concerned with my processes and procedures when handling a weapon than how the round performed.

Sure, there's something to be learned here, but it's not about ballistics or the lackadaisical nature of recounting a potential nightmare.

For the record, I've been shooting for close to 30 years and I've never had a Negligent (or accidental) discharge. How's that possible if "anybody can have this happen"? It happens to people who don't give the proper respect and attention to the object in their hands.

Stay safe and ALWAYS give the proper attention to the task at hand.


----------



## BulletproofTC (Apr 12, 2011)

zhurdan said:


> Sorry to say,this, but this is not the kind of information that helps this forum. The OP related a story that is a result of a total lack of safety and a total ignorance of firearms safety, for what... an introduction? Please, go somewhere else to peddle your idiocy.
> 
> Sorry for being harsh, but I'm getting tired of hearing these types of introductions on a wide spread of forums lately. I'm seriously starting to think they are anti gun plants.


Really, man? Negative posts like yours that contribute nothing is what hurts a forum. I know I can't be the only one that gets turned off a forum by overzealous safety nuts. We all know what a firearm can do. If a mistake happens, regardless if someone is hurt or not, I would be interested in reading about it- as would most others I believe. My .02.


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

BulletproofTC said:


> Really, man? Negative posts like yours that contribute nothing is what hurts a forum. I know I can't be the only one that gets turned off a forum by overzealous safety nuts. We all know what a firearm can do. If a mistake happens, regardless if someone is hurt or not, I would be interested in reading about it- as would most others I believe. My .02.


You're right, I haven't been here as long as you have and have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just an overzealous safety nut. You win the internetz. Oh, wait...

This isn't about being overzealous about safety but it is about potential consequences. Mistakes shouldn't happen when handling firearms unlike something else, say automobiles. With a car, you're not the only one influencing what happens, with a gun, you (or I) are most definitely the only influence that causes things to happen. Tell a guy that just put a round thru a wall and killed his 6 yr old kid that it's ok to make mistakes. It's simply not.


----------



## BulletproofTC (Apr 12, 2011)

I just knew you would retort back regarding how you've been here longer. Even followed by a smartass remark. The fact that you're seasoned should translate into your setting a good example on the forum and attempting to retain members. Being the bigger man and moving on.

Projectile weapons have been around since the Palaeolithic era, we're talking many tens of thousands of years here. History has shown us accidents can and WILL happen, it's a simple fact of life. This age of digital communication makes it possible to learn from OTHERS mistakes, not merely our own. So why bash someone that made a mistake (even if he does skew the lesson - he know's he messed up)? You can now bet on the fact that he will observe safety protocols much more closely in the future.


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

BulletproofTC said:


> I just knew you would retort back regarding how you've been here longer. Even followed by a smartass remark. The fact that you're seasoned should translate into your setting a good example on the forum and attempting to retain members. Being the bigger man and moving on.
> 
> Projectile weapons have been around since the Palaeolithic era, we're talking many tens of thousands of years here. History has shown us accidents can and WILL happen, it's a simple fact of life. This age of digital communication makes it possible to learn from OTHERS mistakes, not merely our own. So why bash someone that made a mistake (even if he does skew the lesson - he know's he messed up)? You can now bet on the fact that he will observe safety protocols much more closely in the future.


Point taken, but I still don't understand how people honestly believe that accidents "just happen". My point, albeit a pissed off post, is that even IF a gun goes off _accidentally_ (which I don't believe happens) it should be pointed in a safe direction, not at a wall with a hallway behind it.

As far as forum etiquette, I'm not certain you read the whole thread or if you are just picking out the parts you want to discuss. My posts were constructive and to the point. Sorry, I don't really like to "fluff" stuff, especially when it comes to safety. You may think it just happens, but I think it just doesn't and I've proven that for over 30 years as many others here can probably attest to as well. Safety isn't an afterthought or an introduction to ballistics (he posted under the Home Defense & Target Ammunition sub-forum), it's the fine line between an accident (negligence) or a dead person.

Call me names (overzealous safety nut) if you like, just make sure your muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

Shoot safe.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*zhurdan*, you and I frequently agree, but not this time. I also think that your response was too harsh. There was a lesson for the OP new guy to learn, but crabbing at him did not teach it.

You say that you've been shooting for 30 years, but you've never had a ND? Well, I've been shooting for 58 years, and I've had two: one when I was 15, and one when I was 44. Both of them taught me serious lessons about gun safety I might not have learned without experiencing them.

At any rate, tired as we all may be of reading about the fecklessness of the new and untrained gun handler, we experienced shooters have a duty to be patient with, and to be mentors of, the beginner. It is through the transmission of our experiences to them, that the young learn and thus mature.


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

True enough.

Must be on my Man-period or something. Lots of stress as work sometimes manifests itself in forum posts.

My apologies.


----------



## jeffegg2 (Jan 15, 2011)

Hulsey76 said:


> OK...I'm new to the forum, and this is my first post. Let me begin by saying hello to everyone who may read this. My name is Michael, and I'm a firearms enthusiast (addict).
> 
> So here's what happened that inspired me joining a forum:
> 
> ...


If this is a JHP, then it is ok that it did not pass through the wall. You want to shoot bad guys, not the person
in the next room.


----------



## adjohns3 (May 21, 2010)

AirForceShooter said:


> I disagree.
> This recounting of this act is very relevant.
> ANYBODY can have this happen.
> All it takes is a momentary loss of attention.
> ...


AMEN to this...this is the point and hopefully we ALL take this to heart. We all hear these stories and say NEVER HAPPEN TO ME...is there anybody who shoots themselves or others on purpose (called murder), but otherwise it is an ACCIDENT...and can happen to any of us, not withstanding our experience level.
Good lesson and reminder!


----------



## kevinsmith1 (Oct 3, 2008)

zhurdan said:


> True enough.
> 
> Must be on my Man-period or something. Lots of stress as work sometimes manifests itself in forum posts.
> 
> My apologies.


I don't think you need to apologize. I do think you were harsh but I also understand. The OP chose "home defense and target ammunition" and then chose to title it "just shot my bedroom wall". It seems as though he is minimizing what just happened. Had he posted in "new to the forum introductions" and titled it "just made a big mistake and I am joining this forum to learm more about firearms and safety" he would have been welcomed with open arms. I am sure he learned from his mistake. It is a reality check for us all not to get complacent. Anyway, don't apologize. Its good for all of us young newbies to hear these opinions. my .02


----------



## Gunners_Mate (Feb 17, 2010)

While I was stationed in Kuwait the National Guard had 8 ND's, whilst the Navy had 0. Nothing against the NG, generally great guys like the rest of us, as I understand what was at fault was a lack of training, and improper listing of proper download procedures (not to mention the download procedure also seems to include a function check, which should be seperate, IMO). 

As a Gunners mate for my command it's one of my responsibilities to maintain proper weapons training for the command. EVERY time the NG happened to have a ND indecent, I was made to hold training. It cut into everyone's off time, and as such no one wanted to be there. It wasn't OUR ND, why care? 

Because safety is numero uno, always. We maintained a perfect track record because of it. 

Many thing's have been beaten like a very dead horse into my brain, but 4 of them are as follows, we call them the 4 Universal safety rules:
1. Treat every weapon as though it were loaded.
2. Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger straight and along the receiver (or off the trigger) until ready to fire.
4. Keep the safety one until ready to fire. 

Those are the navy's nearly verbatim phrasing, the parenthesis' part being more common, I was simply trained more on "along the receiver" it's what comes to mind first. Other wording's that mostly come to the exact same conclusion are also known under the same title, but the general effect is, if you abide by these rules EVERY time you handle weapons, you will never ND, muzzle anyone, or otherwise have any "accidents". 

I do not believe, and can hardly imagine myself ever negligently discharging a weapon, however accidents happen, slips of the mind occur, sometimes you just happen to be in a flippant mood. It's hard to imagine myself disregarding any or all of these rules, but I can't say definitively it'll never happen. But I sure as hell try my best not to. When it comes to weapons a healthy respect for them and safety are first priority. Proficiency is secondary, and thats why I'm not the best shot, 

The key to weapons safety is redundancy. Coming up to a weapon first thing to do is verify clear and safe. Then, consider the 4 safety rules and abide. Last, when dry firing, function checking after reassembly or practicing holstering and presentations, point in a safe direction. If you always do all of these you'll be golden, however if you just once neglect one or two aspects of it, then you'll still end up in the clear no matter what happens. Don't clear it, don't 4 safety rules, but point in safe direction, no one dies. Point in an unsafe direction after clearing and safeing, no one dies. abide by the 4 rules, no one dies. Great thing about the military, when you clear a weapon (and when those 8 nd's occured) you clear the weapon into something that can take a bullet and not allow it any further to hurt anyone else. In kuwait it was 55 gallon drums laid at an angle in a pile of sand and full of sand with a foot thick concrete back drop. regardless, 8 National Guardsmen found themselves no longer serving their country. 

aside from that and in answer to your question about the ammunition, it indeed seems highly disappointing that something as soft as pine would stop the bullet dead. HOwever you say it went through a bottle of water and a glass bottle of perfume. being mostly water ourselves, with skin less strong than plastic, you've got to consider some penetration there, then maintaining enough force after that to destroy a glass perfume container, glass being none too soft, and then stopping at the pine. focus less on the end factor and look more into the beginning elements. Seems like an excellent defense round to me, especially in the home. Just enough penetration, but not too much.


----------



## tommy62 (Mar 15, 2011)

No one can beat you up as bad as you probably are right now so relax and learn from your error in judgment. You can never be too careful. Thanks for the post. It should serve as a reminder to all of us. I about did it today myself, but thought to safety check first. *You can release your sphincter death clench now.*


----------



## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

As said above, gun owners/users absolutely MUST be safety-conscious at all times, lest the next incident not turn out so well (for us, for you, or someone else; perhaps someone you love dearly). Once a weapon fires, there is no calling a bullet back, no do-overs, and no "new lives" like in the video games. Errors of this magnitude can never be truly fixed -- only avoided, by application of our best efforts, 24/7.

On to the ammo part of your post.



Hulsey76 said:


> (snip)
> 
> The round, a Winchester Ranger SXT 147gr., went through a bottle of water, a glass bottle of my wife's perfume, and hit the wall paneling. I immediately went into the hall to see the exit hole, wondering how much drywall work I would be doing tomorrow. No exit. I inspected the point of impact more closely and found the taloned jacket lying on the dresser. The bullet appears to have disintegrated when it struck the pine paneling. The paneling looks to be about 3/8 thick, but it's solid pine, not laminate.
> 
> The good news is that there is no damage to my wall. The bad news is that I have trusted this ammo to save my life for over a year now. Does this seem like less than inspiring performance from this round to anyone here? Now I have to explain this to my wife......:buttkick:


I don't think you could expect much more of this bullet, given what happened to it. It passed through a bottle of water, smashed what was probably a very thick decorative glass container, and then struck another solid object. It's possible that the water in the first bottle may have started the bullet expanding, and when it hit the perfume bottle, it probably flattened the bullet rather severely. Both objects would have reduced the bullet's velocity, and almost certainly affected its stability, causing it to yaw and/or tumble. After being deformed, destabilized, and slowed greatly, you are surprised that it didn't blow a hole in the wall? I'm not.

I also suspect that you'll be reminded of this infamous day regularly; like, every time you enter the bedroom. 
I broke a bottle of perfume once, and I couldn't stand the stench in that room for months...


----------



## MitchellB (Aug 14, 2010)

In a perfect world no one makes mistakes, but I applaud anyone brave enough to face ridicule and share their mistake so everyone can learn from it. As to the penetration ability of the ammo, it does sound weak or those were some pretty large bottles of water and perfume.


----------



## ronmail65 (Jan 18, 2011)

zhurdan said:


> True enough.
> 
> Must be on my Man-period or something. Lots of stress as work sometimes manifests itself in forum posts.
> 
> My apologies.


Zhurdan, maybe I'm stressed out too, but I support your posts and I think the harshness is justifiable.

I'm a relatively new gun owner and I'm scared as hell of an ND. I hope that I always maintain a level of fear and respect for these weapons -- manifested in an obsession with safety. If I should ever experience an ND, I think I'd have to sell my guns (regardless of any injury). And I would expect anyone who experiences an ND to give that some serious thought as well.

Sure, it's a "learning experience" -- but the consequences of some learning experiences are too costly and there can be little tolerance for negligence. At some level plane crashes, drunk driving accidents, etc... are great learning experiences too. But I don't think, for the sake of learning, we make light of these situations or express tolerance. Maybe the first thing you try to learn or understand when you experience an ND is... "am I competent enough to own a gun?"


----------



## uspastime (Jan 28, 2010)

zhurdan said:


> True enough.
> 
> Must be on my Man-period or something. Lots of stress as work sometimes manifests itself in forum posts.
> 
> My apologies.


Well done and well said. The spirit and intent of your outrage were correct but perhaps a few more minutes delayed before typing might have been better.

It takes a man to admit when he was wrong (which you weren't, technically), good to see.


----------



## ozzy (Apr 16, 2011)

Not to bash but these kind of posts keep me on my toes. Practice mentally as well as physically. Glad to hear all were safe.


----------



## Overkill0084 (Nov 28, 2010)

I've been watching this thread for a bit now. Couple things.

The OP screwed up pretty good. He already feels about an inch tall. Piling on with grumpy finger pointing is unhelpful. Admittedly, it was tempting.

To the OP: That's a heck of an intro. Luckily no one was injured or killed. Buy your wife some new perfume. Now (as previously stated), unclench. If you are a responsible person, I would guess that you have been your own worst critic, aside from possibly your wife.  You've had your Homer Simpson moment with firearms. I'm willing to bet you're going to become much more attentive to proper clearing procedures from here on out.
As for ammo preformance, I wouldn't take too much away from this as far as bullet performance is concerned. A bottle of water and perfume are hardly a proper gage to judge terminal ballistics.


----------



## OldCurlyWolf (Oct 28, 2010)

AirForceShooter said:


> I disagree.
> This recounting of this act is very relevant.
> ANYBODY can have this happen.
> All it takes is a momentary loss of attention.
> ...


I agree.

I am something of a safety nut. And what caused that are two incidents about ten years apart when I was a lot younger. The last was nearly 33 years ago. Both were accidental discharges caused by an external hammer slipping. Once cocking and once de-cocking. Both times other basic safety procedures kept them from resulting in anything more than a loud noise and scaring the H out of everyone that happened to be close by, especially me.

I have learned a lot from others' mistakes over the years and even more from my own.

I prefer the first over the second.
:mrgreen:


----------



## Old shooter (Apr 20, 2011)

*Mistakes are going to happen, learn by them*

I am new to this forum but felt compleled to comment on this tread. The more we read of others mistakes the more experienced we become without making the same mistake ourselves. Not all gun owners are , errr, smart. Hearing about others stupidities helps the less mentally adept think twice about the handling of fire arms. I know a guy that shot a bad guy on his TV with a 9mm. The TV was a leason that he will never forget.

I used to fly in Navy Jet aircraft as a right seat non pilot in a training squadron. The pilots almost never related their mistakes to other piots. We who were trying to stay alive always related pilot errors to other right seaters. Many pilots were saved from being a statistic by the more experienced right seater he was fortunate enough to have that particular day he tried to goof.

Anyone can have an accidental discharged due to a poorly made or adjusted firearm. An unintentional discharge being a moment of idiocy that might have been averted by having read of some other persons stupid moment. Much better to learn the easy way rather than the hard way.


----------



## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

While it's good to so see some positives are resulting from this post and threads I gotta admit I had the exact same reaction as you did zhurdan and make no appologies for it. Perhaps it's the combining of the negligent discharge incident and the grave concern over the rounds effectivness all in one post that strikes me as bizzar. As in my hairs on fire but I'm thirsty so can I please have a juice box kind of bizzar. If my hairs on fire is a little throat tickle really my biggest concern? If you answer yes please proceed to the front of the line for natural deselection.

I've never had an AD thank God but I've done my fair share of stupid in general. However, I've never been one to proudly hang said dirty laundry out on the front lawn for all the world to see. AD's are accidents by the strictest definition but they are also all preventable. Not the same thing as a failure of the firearm resulting in a discharge on it's own which is highly rare. For those who can relate to this tale and had a similar incident but learned from it and moved on good. That's what is supposed to happen and glad no one was hurt.

Granted we are not all the same but if it where me in this situation and after I'd crapped my pants when it sunk in what I'd just done and what "could" have happened due to "my" error I'd probably have wept. I'm not exactly Mr. emotional and Capt. sensitive either. Valuable lesson to be learned here but zhur was right on the money in my book with his analysis.


----------



## chp1911 (Apr 17, 2011)

I am new to this forum and decided to add my 2 cents worth. First; Zhurdan was perhaps a little harsh on a newbie but, Let the same thing happen at a orginized shoot and all hell will rain down on him from every range officer in attendance. Then he will truly know what being one inch tall feels like. Second;To BulletproofTD there is no such thing as being overzealous when it comes to firearm saftey, once the trigger is pulled and the firearm goes BANG there is no recalling that bullet. That one split second can change many lives for as long as they live if someone is struck with an errant bullet.Having said all that I am glad no one was hurt and the damage was minor.The next time he picks up a firearm I am sure he will remember rule #1 FIREARMS ARE ALLWAYS LOADED!!!!


----------



## fas111 (Apr 23, 2011)

I am also new here but not to guns. I am 67 have been shooting all my life and I too had a scary moment way back in 1971. I had returned from the range and was unpacking my equipment including my Ruger MK1. The dog was running around and I just pointed the gun at her - had my finger on the trigger and was actually pressing when for some reason I checked the chamber and out popped a round. I always considered myself very safety oriented and my mistake way back then still comes to mind every single time I pick up a firearm. I am glad you posted and I'll bet you will never have another incident . This type of situation can only reinforce your future handling of firearms and safety.


----------



## Spokes (Jun 1, 2008)

Now I am having second thoughts about keeping the 147 grain Winchester SXT's in my g26. Might have to change to the 124+p.
By the way OP thanks for your story, now I will triple check instead of double check.
Oh, I am 73 years old and have been shooting since I was twelve, we are only human and fail at times. I know you will never do that again.


----------



## .357 (May 12, 2011)

Hello folks.

I am also new to this forum and new to firearms.

I don't currently own a handgun but I do own a Saiga 7:62:39 rifle.

Last nigh on 5/11/2011 after my wife and kid fell asleep, I went into one of our bedrooms where I keep the rifle and picked it up. I have gotten a new magazine for it and wanted to make sure it worked. 

I loaded the gun. It worked fine. I proceeded to take the magazine out and unload the bullet. Now it was really late at night and I was sleepy but the bullet did come out and landed on the bed. I put the magazine back in and loaded again. After that I proceeded to unload again. The cartridge came out once again.

Before I put the rifle away to go to sleep I decided to dry fire once. I always do after I am done with my rifle. I pointed at the wall the opposite wall where my wife and kid were and BAM! The rifle had one in the chamber. 

I am still not 100% what the heck happened. I have spent the past 24 hours barely sleeping with my hands shaking. I am terrified. If God forbid my wife had gotten up and gone to that room and I did not notice.... What if the kid snuck out of bed?

The bullet actually went through the two walls and was stopped by vinyl siding. My wife has rightly been yelling at me the whole day.

I feel like I am too stupid to ever touch a firearm again.

I am very ashamed of myself and very sorry.

I am also thankful to God that no one way hurt.

I WILL NEVER DRY FIRE IN THE HOUSE EVER AGAIN.

The halls in the wall were pretty huge.

That thing packs some serious punch and I am now scared of it.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I did something similar with a .30-40 Krag, back when I was 15.
I was "testing" its magazine with live rounds, and forgot that there was still a round in its chamber. The predictable result was a hole in the wall.

The moral of both of our stories is: _Never_ test magazines or actions with live rounds. _*Never.*_

You can buy dummy rounds to test things with.
You can buy special dummy rounds with which to dry fire.

OK, so you committed a negligent discharge, and now your wife is really, really angry at you. Fine. Learn the lesson that this teaches.
But it does no good to be afraid of this, or any other, gun.
Fear will only cause you to make further stupid mistakes, and other negligent discharges.
Instead, *learn to use your rifle properly*. Get used to its action and behavior.
Do this with _*dummy rounds*_.

(When you are working with those dummy rounds, any live ammunition should be far away, in another room.)


----------



## Ala Tom (Apr 1, 2011)

I think you guys missed a major point. Of course he should have checked the gun before pulling the trigger. He has developed a very bad habit of dry firing without much preparation when he goes into his bedroom. He thought he was improving his skills. If he works in a gun check to his routine he will be improving his skills. 

But please note that he shot his wife's perfume, NOT HIS WIFE! 

KEEP YOUR GUN POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION AT ALL TIMES.

Here's another thing to worry about. To protect my M&P 40's striker, I recently bought a set of snap caps, plastic bullets that I load into a magazine for dry-firing practice. But I also elevated my threat level a notch so I keep a (live) round chambered during the day. (I keep my gun nearby during the day with magazine full of defense ammo also nearby and ready to be shoved into the gun. I stay home most of the time. My gun has a magazine safety and no other.) So you see that I am an accident waiting to happen. I worry about that and am developing careful procedures to stay safe.

The good Gunners_Mate above should become aware that, today, many gun enthusiasts buy guns with no safeties, at least no thumb safeties. Most M&P's are sold without any safeties. I had to search hard to get the MP with the magazine safety and I was scolded by experienced competitors because it means I cannot perform one of the basic ending maneuvers in a certain type of competition. My answer was the I agreed I did not want a thumb safety (they can be set accidently during recoil) and I consider their competition rule ridiculous. But I have become used to magazine safeties. All my automatics have had them and will continue to have them.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Ala Tom said:


> ...I did not want a thumb safety (they can be set accidently during recoil)...But I have become used to magazine safeties. All my automatics have had them and will continue to have them.


_(Shudder!)_


----------



## Ala Tom (Apr 1, 2011)

I was talked out of the thumb safety with this argument: Your trigger finger is your safety. Keep it straight and the safety is ON. Decide to shoot, line up on a target and then put your finger on the trigger. The safety is OFF.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Thumb safeties* are not intrinsically good or bad. It's all in how one uses them.
If your presentation procedure includes placing the thumb upon the safety, pressing it down at some point during presentation, and then _keeping pressure on it with your thumb_ all the way through the firing string, it is as useful and as "foolproof" as any other _mechanical_ safety device.
(However, slide-mounted, push-up-to-fire safeties, as found on many "traditional double-action"-TDA-semi-autos are an abomination.)

In my own way of thinking, *magazine safeties* are counter-productive, and can even prove deadly (to the user).
Imagine, if you will, being engaged in a, um, real-live shooting match, and finding yourself running out of the ammunition in the magazine that's in your pistol. You drop that magazine while reaching for your reload, but, while you're doing this, you notice a bad guy maneuvering on you. If your weapon has a magazine safety, _you cannot fire a shot at him until you have fully seated the reload magazine_. But during this short span of time, he has a free shot at temporarily-defenseless little old you.
Not a good thing.

Now, a LEO might say that his magazine safety could save his life in a gun grab, as long as he has a split second to punch his magazine release.
But we thoughtful and self-protective civilians will not be engaging in a physical tussle with a bad guy. In civilian self-defense, if the gun comes out, the shot gets fired; otherwise the gun never makes an appearance. (One hopes that the civilian in question knows how to place his shot to immediately end the fight, before it can get to the grappling, gun-grabbing stage.)

Nope. I can live with, and sometimes even prefer, a thumb safety. But I cannot abide a magazine-disconnect safety, and will not have a pistol that includes one.
Thus my _"Shudder!"_ comment.


----------



## Old_Sport (May 10, 2011)

I have to jump in on this. There is no face to face here so being harsh should not apply. We are for the most part ananamous in this forum so our admissions to the world won't put a bad light on us in ther real world. The point that was made about not posting this is wrong, but a pat on the back and a thats OK don't worry is a little to light of a sentence. The key here is 96. This stands for 96 of all accidents can be avoided. Anyone that walks away from these things and say "accident" are idiots. Experiences like this should put a chill down your back and be somthing you wouldn't want to admit to. BUT SHOULD ADMIT TO AND LET ALL OF US KNOW THAT THESE THINGS CAN HAPPEN. The point is we can learn from ours and others mistakes and remeber and apply safety at all times. 
What was the original Question? Oh yes the AMMO.


----------



## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

All good comments and posts. I'd like to add my 2 cents regarding the rounds effectiveness. Given what happened and those unintended hard barriers I personally would not conclude that was a bad example of penetration and performance. 147gr SXT is good round. I think it did surprisingly well for a round that is not designed to be a major hard object penetrator. In 9mm I have no reservations about carrying 124, +p, 127 or 147 gr HP's. Frankly for any barrels longer than 3 inches I'd use any of those 3 with equal confidence. In the shorties like my Kahr MK9 I opt for 124 gr preferably +p to compensate for the barrel length.

For defense and especially home defense one wants to maximize BG damage and minimize any collateral damage due to over penetration. As an ordinary citizen what am I doing shooting into windows, doors and sheet rock as it pertains to defense? If BG has gone fetal behind a hard barrier it sounds like a good opportunity for me to escape an otherwise bad situation.


----------



## buckler (May 24, 2011)

the man who claims he's never had an ND is a liar, or hasn't done much high speed gunhandling, for sure. it happens to everyone, sooner or later. how big was the water bottle? 5 gallongs of water will stop most jhp loads, or slow them down so much that they have little power left.

slowfire, target only shooters can avoid these malfunctions, usually, but fast draw types have it happen, hopefully only at the range, not in the house.


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Oh, I dunno...
I've known slowfire target shooters who have killed perfectly good TVs, while practicing with "empty" guns.

Once I almost "killed" the right rear tire of my ride home, while unloading after a match on a "hot" range.


----------



## buckler (May 24, 2011)

do you understand what "can" means? It is not the same as saying "for sure they won't. "


----------



## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

buckler said:


> do you understand what "can" means? It is not the same as saying "for sure they won't. "


Well, in that case, then _every_ shooter, slowfire, quickdraw, whatever, "can" avoid these, um, malfunctions.

But then, what does that do to your previous statement?

(No further discussion is necessary. We've hijacked this thread enough already.)


----------



## Triple7 (May 9, 2011)

This is the reason I can never get lazy with safety.


----------



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

buckler said:


> *the man who claims he's never had an ND is a liar*, or hasn't done much high speed gunhandling, for sure. it happens to everyone, sooner or later. how big was the water bottle? 5 gallongs of water will stop most jhp loads, or slow them down so much that they have little power left.
> 
> slowfire, target only shooters can avoid these malfunctions, usually, but fast draw types have it happen, hopefully only at the range, not in the house.


Well, I guess I'm a liar. Great introduction buckler.


----------

