# GLOCK,thoughts to ponder.



## R.J.Adams (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey all. I find myself being drawn to the GLOCK of late. Not sure why, but I feel the need for one. I have been reading up on them a bit, and am surprised at what I have found. The PA State Troopers, as well as the NY State Troopers,are arming themselves with GLOCKS. Not the same models, but GLOCKS just the same. I see where the P.S.P is showing an increase in qualifing scores from something like 86% of the perfect 300 points, to 95%! All with the 45 G.A.P. That also reflects an increase in perfect scores, some shot by Troopers not previously turning in a score of 300. I have been looking at the striker fire guns for local combat shooting matches, and keep coming up GLOCK. Don't get me wrong, I love my Beretta 96, but I think I could pick up a few points with a striker at the matches. My questions are, am I missing the boat not having a GLOCK already, and who would reccomend a 45 G.A.P for combat shooting? Thanks,R.J.


----------



## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

The ballistics on the 45GAP seem pretty impressive, but the availability of ammo, and price, do not...

I've never shot one. Love to... just never have.

Re Glock vs everything else? Glock is THE standard for reliability. Accuracy, for a combat gun, is very good. Bore axis is lowest in the Glock for striker fired pistols, but effective recoil is debatable among Glock, XD, and M&P. After that, it is subjective opinion/preference.

I am personally more accurate with an XD than a Glock or M&P, Mike Barham will extole Glocks as the king of accuracy and reliability. Others will point to the M&P as the "third son" in the line, and an improvement on both Glock and XD... Though, as the newest, it's least proven...

Pick the one that suits you, that you shoot best, and then practice until it's part of you.
JW


----------



## brisk21 (Mar 14, 2008)

I dont know of too many people who have regretted buying a glock, thats for sure. Id stay away from the 45 gap just because ammo is rare and expensive. who knows, it may be obsolete soon. Id go with a more established caliber, like the 9mm or 45. I think that tho only people who dont like glocks are the people who dont understand them.


----------



## big rob (Mar 31, 2008)

I love the glock. If I could own only one handgun it would be a glock. I would say go find or rent one and shoot it. As for the 45gap. If you can find ammo I say why not. But you may want a glock 21sf in 45acp. Much easier to find ammo. Last box of 45gap I found was like $30 for 20 rounds.


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Shooting the GAP specifically won't increase your scores. The likely reason for the higher scores turned in by the cops you mentioned is more probably that they went from a long-trigger or _crunchenticker_ DA gun to the short-trigger Glock. Those departments probably would have seem a similar increase going to the XD or any other short-trigger pistol in 9mm or .40 or .357 or maybe even .45ACP. Short-trigger guns are just easier to shoot well for most people, including cops.

The Glock has a lower bore axis and, critically to fast shooting, a shorter-firmer trigger reset versus most pistols. These are advantages in games that require a balance of speed and accuracy. They are also advantages that become more and more apparent as you become more skilled. A new shooter is hardly ever even cognizant of them, where an old hand notices the difference right away.


----------



## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Are Glocks 'perfect' guns? No. They are service grade tools that are reliable and accurate enough to get the job done and cheap enough to be readily accessible.

For years, Glock (wisely) did everything they could to capture the LE market. They offered aggressive pricing and more importantly for the politicos, a generous trade in program.

Glock also benefitted from early noteriety of the G17 by gaining mindshare from a number of disinformation campaigns ranging from X-ray transparency (metal slide) to being the first polymer gun (HK VP70 1968). It gained a lot of allure from the NYC ban and being favored by rappers. Given the success of the G17, Glock shrunk the gun into its subcompacts, and stretched it to accomodate every caliber they could, plagarizing the same design over and over.

With the internet came the famous videos made by spoiled kids abusing their Glocks (snow, sand, being run over, etc.). At which point Glock reliability became legendary. The reality is that Glocks are no more reliable than any modern polymer pistol be it P99, XD or USP. Making a gun reliable, you assemble it to loose tolerances so everything works, every time, no break in mandatory. To make it accurate, all the pieces fit tightly, requiring extensive break in with hardball to make it reliable.

If you belong to the cult of low bore axis, the Steyr M-A1 (in 9 or 40) is the true low bore axis standard in poly guns.

The overwhelming Glock marketing juggernaut drowned out a number of gaffes from an unsupported chamber causing KaBooms, especially in .40, to the redesign that added finger grooves to the grip making the gun unpleasant for people with small hands or fingers of differing lengths, to the introduction of the G21 that would only fit the hands of NBA players.

If your hand fits the Glock's blocky grip, you can stand the mushy trigger and you shoot one accurately... go for it. In the end, the bad guys you shoot with a Glock in SD really don't care. *Just make your choice based on whether you shoot one well, not because you've been sucked in by the marketing, rapper videos and peer pressure.*


----------



## Joeywhat (Apr 17, 2008)

I shot a Glock once...I shot it well, but at the end of the day I felt I could spend my money on a better gun. I'll still probably buy one, though...just not right now.


----------



## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

*Glock*

I've had two Glocks, and currently have a model 36 in 45 ACP. In my opinion, they are well-made, good-shooting firearms; but not the super guns that many claim them to be. My S&W M&P 9c shoots as well as the Glocks I have tried; trigger, ergonomics, recoil and sights.

If you collect handguns and want to add a Glock, by all means do so. If you are thinking that Glock is the only brand on the planet and you must have one, then I would suggest looking around first. Try out other available brands and styles. Good luck with your choices!


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't know anything about rapper videos or YouTube torture tests by rich kids, but I do know that the Glock is more widely issued than any other single service pistol in America, and has been tested much more extensively than the XD. I certainly grant that SIGs, Berettas, and HKs equal it in reliability, but none - with their high bore axes and long trigger resets - are as easy to shoot well at speed.

The Glock is easy for most new shooters to shoot reasonably well, which I think accounts for a large measure of its popularity, especially when compared to _crunchentickers_. Is it a 1911 in terms of ease of shooting? Nope. But in my experience the Glock is _much_ more reliable. I'll take a stone-cold reliable pistol with a spongy trigger over a fussy gun with a perfect trigger any day. But I quit competing years ago and only care about pistols from a defensive perspective anymore.

The low-bore-axis Steyr is a non-starter in the pistol world. No holsters, no accessories, magazines hard to find, no institutional armorer knowledge, weird sights. Nice gun, but it's basically an orphan in the gun world. I have nothing against Steyr - my favorite rifle is a Steyr - but I strongly prefer guns that have been heavily tested in the real world and for which I can actually find parts, holsters, accessories and armorers.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

brisk21 said:


> I dont know of too many people who have regretted buying a glock, thats for sure. Id stay away from the 45 gap just because ammo is rare and expensive. who knows, it may be obsolete soon. Id go with a more established caliber, like the 9mm or 45. I think that tho only people who dont like glocks are the people who dont understand them.


Or people like me who just found something they enjoy shooting better, and then sold the Glock.


----------



## R.J.Adams (Apr 10, 2008)

One of the main reasons I am looking for a new fun gun has been mentioned. The long DA trigger pull and long reset of the Beretta. I really do like the 96, I wanted a Beretta since I saw my first one years ago. So, when I found this one I picked it up. It is a quality pistol that shoots pretty good actually. I have fired an M&P 45 some, nice pistol also. I like the American made aspect of it. It is the one that set me to thinking striker for competition. I guess I need to borrow (can't rent them here) a GLOCK and have a go with it. 

I was hoping with the GAP being taken on board by some of the bigger state LE agencies, it would make it more available and afordable. I can be happy with a 45 ACP, good round and common as ticks in Texas. My 40 is a little sharp and hard to get back on target. Could just be the high bore line. I never had a 9mm, and likely won't. Nothing against it as a fun gun chambering. It just doesn't float my boat. 

Thanks for all the input fellas,I appreciate it,R.J.


----------



## Ram Rod (Jan 16, 2008)

The Glock would do you very well in competition. That's what I use. 9mm for minor classes, 40cal for major. Glock is hi capacity for the matches which you'll want of course. 45acp is expensive compared to 40 and 9mm. If you wanted to shoot 45 and only 45, get a single stack 1911 model of some sort and reload. Just my 2¢
Oh---and yes--Glock has been time tested where the XD has not. KB's? I figure the amount of KB's vs the amount of Glock pistols owned and shot is acceptable. Less than one in a million I'd suspect. Bashing?? Most of the time in this world--it's the guys at the top that take a beating--everyone else is jealous.


----------



## R.J.Adams (Apr 10, 2008)

Lets muddy the waters a little farther. Has anyone had any experiance with the factory compensated GLOCKS? I see where they have compensated 1911 length models that would appear to be the cats......well, you know. The model 35 Practical Tactical I believe. Are they an advantage in the speed game?


----------



## GTD (Dec 19, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> I do know that the Glock is more widely issued than any other single service pistol in America, and has been tested much more extensively than the XD.


Price drives everything! If the XD came in a hundred dollars cheaper then the glock (and they might I don't know) police departments and civilians would be buying them up. Lately the XD's sure seem to be flying off the shelves.


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

GTD said:


> Price drives everything! If the XD came in a hundred dollars cheaper then the glock (and they might I don't know) police departments and civilians would be buying them up. Lately the XD's sure seem to be flying off the shelves.


If price was "everything," Glock would have had 100% (rather than 60-70%) of the police market and SIG, HK, Beretta, and S&W would be gone. Glock certainly offers police departments good pricing, but they also have a great armorer program (that the others have been trying for years to emulate), and the Glock is easy for most police recruits to shoot well compared to long-trigger guns.

XDs sell well, but if holster sales are any indication, they are still _very_ far behind Glock - and I mean 20-to-1 or more - in overall popularity. Gun enthusiasts tend to talk about guns to other enthusiasts, which colors perceptions of the popularity of different guns. But the XD - while an excellent pistol that is increasing in popularity - is nowhere near as widely seen as the first tier of service pistols in the non-enthusiast world, where guns are just tools for a job and not objects of affection.


----------



## brisk21 (Mar 14, 2008)

Dredd said:


> Or people like me who just found something they enjoy shooting better, and then sold the Glock.


well, since you clearly have such distain for glocks, if you have any more let me know if you want to sell them, because I imagine you'll likely sell them for next to nothing. glocks are probably the best self defense handguns in the world. nothing has been tested so extensively and always passed. there is a reason they're soooo popular, they work every time!


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

brisk21 said:


> glocks are probably the best self defense handguns in the world.


Wow, and I thought I was a Glock fanboy! :mrgreen:

If a guy shoots a SIG, HK, XD, Beretta, or whatever _better_ than he shoots a Glock, _that_ is the "best" defense gun for him - not the Glock. I like Glocks quite a lot, but they are not the best defense gun for everyone, nor are they "perfection," regardless of the claims of the Glock marketing juggernaut.


----------



## brisk21 (Mar 14, 2008)

I agree, with you mike, but, the simplicity of the glock is one of the reasons I think it is the best self defense handgun. there is clearly no such thing as perfection in a weapon of any kind. Maybe glocks new slogan should be-- "everything you need and nothing you dont"


----------



## Ram Rod (Jan 16, 2008)

RJ--my competition pitols are the same as my carry pitols. Therefore I don't have any experience with the 'C' models--I don't see those as actual combat personal protection options personally. As far as competition--I'd say the 'C' model Glocks were built specifically for that purpose.


----------



## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> The low-bore-axis Steyr is a non-starter in the pistol world. No holsters, no accessories, magazines hard to find, no institutional armorer knowledge, weird sights. Nice gun, but it's basically an orphan in the gun world. I have nothing against Steyr - my favorite rifle is a Steyr - but I strongly prefer guns that have been heavily tested in the real world and for which I can actually find parts, holsters, accessories and armorers.


Mike, have you shot a Steyr M Pistol or is this a critique of the marketing?

I'll state this again: *Pick a reliable gun you can shoot well regardless of the marketing hype.*

For the most part, *modern polymer handguns have the same reliability.* I will qualify this only with the condition, "for designs over 5 years old." This includes XD, P99, USP, Steyr M-A1, etc.

If a low bore axis is your overriding criteria for being able to shoot well, then *do* consider the Steyr M-A1. Reliability testimony is only a Google search away. Holsters are available from DeSantis, BladeTech, High Noon, Gunners Alley, Bianchi, USA Steyr, etc. Night sights are available from XS Sights, PT sights. Unless you customize, you send warrranty work back to the manufacturer. If after handling one it doesn't work for you, nothing lost. But if it works really well for you, then the extra SD edge might save your life.

Again, *get the gun you can shoot well*, not the one the 'cool' kid tells you to get. When you face the bad guy, you will be the one pulling the trigger, not the 'cool' kid.


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

It's a critique of availability more than anything. Glock stuff is _everywhere_. You really have to dig to find Steyr stuff. The Steyr just isn't popular. Walk into any gun shop and try to find a holster or a magazine for the Steyr. The guy behind the counter will just give you a blank look unless he's a Steyr enthusiast himself.

I agree that it has a nice low bore axis, but one of the advantages of the Glock is that accessories and parts are so easy to find, as are Glock-trained armorers. I like that kind of convenience, but I am basically a lazy guy and uninterested in searching the internet for three hours to find a holster for an obscure pistol, or a guy who can fix my gun.

I agree that one should generally choose the gun he shoots the best. But sometimes other factors come into play. For example, I shoot the 1911 better than the Glock, but the Glock is more reliable, so I carry it in preference to the 1911.


----------



## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Low bore axis is not a worry for me.

All handgun designs are tradeoffs.

Cesare Moroni's anatomic grip design results in superb pointability for my hands. So I carry a P99. QA trigger since consistency contributes to muscle memory. On the other hand the S&W (G2) rail is hard to fit accessories I have no use for on a carry gun. And its trigger has taken a long time to break in for smoothness. But I shoot it well at SD distances.

I shoot an MG16 equipped L9A1 better and enjoy a well tuned 6" 1911 more, but they are not as comfortable for me to carry as a striker fired poly 9.

None of this could be relevant for a different shooter. Ultimately they have to make the choice from their own set of criteria.

To blindly ask for handgun recommendations without identifying features that count for you will result in equally worthless feedback (ie. "look no further claims"). Similarly, an honest recommendation will include the pimples you have to live with. In the end, the only way to confirm these claims is to shoot the gun.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

brisk21 said:


> well, since you clearly have such distain for glocks, if you have any more let me know if you want to sell them, because I imagine you'll likely sell them for next to nothing. glocks are probably the best self defense handguns in the world. nothing has been tested so extensively and always passed. there is a reason they're soooo popular, they work every time!


Your skewed view of the world is very annoying BTW.

So what I sold my Glock because *I* found something *I* like better. I enjoy shooting something Non-Glock more than I did my Glock. It's called preference, and something we here in the USA are allowed to have no?


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

brisk21 said:


> I agree, with you mike, but, the simplicity of the glock is one of the reasons I think it is the best self defense handgun. there is clearly no such thing as perfection in a weapon of any kind. Maybe glocks new slogan should be-- "everything you need and nothing you dont"


Simplicity? Do you know how many parts are actually inside a Glock? And no it's not what it says in the manual or on Glock's site. It's probably no less than the amount of parts inside a S&W M&P, or a Springfield XD.


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Dredd said:


> Simplicity? Do you know how many parts are actually inside a Glock? And no it's not what it says in the manual or on Glock's site. It's probably no less than the amount of parts inside a S&W M&P, or a Springfield XD.


I think he was referring to simplicity of operation, but of course the M&P, XD, and others are just as simple to operate as the Glock. Even if some of them have useless extra parts like grip safeties. :mrgreen:


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> I think he was referring to simplicity of operation, but of course the M&P, XD, and others are just as simple to operate as the Glock. Even if some of them have useless extra parts like grip safeties. :mrgreen:


Every gun is the same in my view, pull the trigger and something gets a hole in it.


----------



## hideit (Oct 3, 2007)

rj adams:
I have said before that I would like to own a 45GAP from glock
i read the latest glock annual magazine and yes 4 state police dept now use the GAP
some of them switched from the .40 and found less recoil and that raised their scores
I would search for a good supplier of 45gap ammo and stock up then get the GAP. after all if 4 state police depts are using the GAP then they have to be receiving ammo from somewhere... maybe MDWAY USA


----------



## R.J.Adams (Apr 10, 2008)

Well, I just got home from a combat shoot. After the smoke cleared, I shot a couple Glocks and an XD to wring them out a bit. Mostly double taps and one to the head. Flat footed and un aided by a wall or other device. Real world stuff. The XD40 surprised the heck out of me. It by the way is for sale, for now anyway. I may loose some sleep for a day or two sorting it out in my head. I shot a 3" 5 shot group with it at 15yds. Center mass. Couldn't have been anymore centered. It felt like it belonged in my hand. I'm not a grip safty kind of guy,but that thing shot WELL! 

Next up was a Glock 22 I believe in 9mm. Super fast and shot fairly well. I did a "Tripple 6" with it just for fun. Like I said, fast and easy to recover with. This particular Glock had a trigger job, and it was a sweetie. 

Thirdly, was a 34 I think, in 40S&W. This gun felt "Right" too. I had some trouble with double feeds in the 9mm,due to limp wristing I guess. Not so with the 40. It too had a trigger job, and shot quite well. I ran some "Failure to stop drills" with it also. Very nice pistol! It functioned superbly,right or left handed, and is making it hard to make up my mind about the XD. For $450.00 with the XD gear package, I am going to have a hard time sleeping this week. Decisions, decisions. This thing has less than 300 rounds through it. It's going to be a long week at work this week for sure.


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Dredd said:


> Every gun is the same in my view, pull the trigger and something gets a hole in it.


Huh? Are you saying that a gun that requires the release of a manual safety (like a 1911) is as simple to operate as a pistol that only requires pressing the trigger?


----------



## Tactical Tom (Sep 19, 2007)

*Glock*

I love my G19, It shoots good enough for me & will eat any brand ammo I load ! I got the 9mm because of the price of ammo ( I'm cheap)
















Try out a few different brands & see what fits you the best:smt023


----------



## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Mike Barham said:


> Wow, and I thought I was a Glock fanboy! :mrgreen:


Don't sell yourself short, you are THE Glock fanboy! :mrgreen:

I echo what others have said; shoot what _you_ shoot best. I don't find the Glock comfortable, so I don't own one. But it doesn't mean it's not a good gun, it's just not a good gun _for me_.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Huh? Are you saying that a gun that requires the release of a manual safety (like a 1911) is as simple to operate as a pistol that only requires pressing the trigger?


The actual operation of shooting is the same regardless.

Safeties and whatnot matter little to me. If my favorte gun has a safety I will have to learn to make wiping off the safety a part of my presentation technique. The actual act of pulling the trigger is the same regardless.

I mean, my idea is to find a gun I enjoy and can shoot well. Then I learn its features and incorporate those into my practice. If I have to wipe off the safety I practice doing so. It will become just as simple as pointing a Glock or similar and pulling the trigger. It requires no more time, in fact when I shoot a gun without a safety, I instinctively would wipe off the non-existant safety. It becomes second nature.


----------



## brisk21 (Mar 14, 2008)

glocks have a combined total of 36 parts, one of the fewest in handguns. and yes, I was referring to the operation of the gun. slide lock and mag release. the only buttons you need on a defense gun.


----------



## brisk21 (Mar 14, 2008)

Dredd said:


> Every gun is the same in my view, pull the trigger and something gets a hole in it.


or maybe, deactivate the manual safety, make sure you dont get hung up on the manuel decocker, make sure there is no obstruction between the fireing pin and the external hammer that can get snagged on your shirt on the way out of the holster, then fire.


----------



## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Well, okay, but I was a 1911 shooter/carrier for fifteen years before I changed to Glock. While releasing the safety is fast and easy, and takes no extra time, it _is_ an extra step that requires dexterity before the pistol can fire.

An extra step is an extra step, and it does make the pistol more complex to operate. It's just a fact, regardless of level of training or familiarity with a given pistol.


----------



## R.J.Adams (Apr 10, 2008)

There was an instructor shooting with us yesterday,and he made another point to ponder. Acording to him,in times of extreme stress,like a life or death confrontation, you loose some fine motor skills. He promotes not even using the slide release on your pistol to drop the slide on the first round in the mag. He instructs you to stroke the slide to release it and close the action. This being a gross motor skill, and not as likely to go "blank" on you in a chrisis situation. Admittedly, he shoots GLOCK. His point makes some sense to me. My Beretta isn't second nature to me yet. The high mounted de-cock/saftey lever,the loooong DA action of the first shot. Unless you thumb the hammer on the first shot,which is a 2 handed ordeal since I can't reach it safely with my trigger hand only. Simplicity has it's place.

A feller put a round in the ground next to him and the timer. He was shooting a 1911, and apparently cleared the holster with his finger in the trigger guard while wiping the safety. Scared the he!! out of a couple people. My times weren't the best, I didn't want to ground a round, so I was very careful with my controls on the Beretta. 

I think I could be quite happy with a GLOCK,XD,or M&P. At this point the XD 40 has the edge, for my hand at least. I had to give up trap shooting for physical reasons, and miss the competition. I was AA with a 23 yd handicap when I was sidelined. I want to be as good as I can be in the combat format of shooting. I don't think my beloved Beretta is going to be the weapon though.


----------



## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

R.J.Adams said:


> There was an instructor shooting with us yesterday,and he made another point to ponder. Acording to him,in times of extreme stress,like a life or death confrontation, you loose some fine motor skills. He promotes not even using the slide release on your pistol to drop the slide on the first round in the mag. He instructs you to stroke the slide to release it and close the action.


Exactly the reason why many of us here are not in favor of condition 3 carry, as you cannot manipulate the slide fast enough, especially in times of stress, to chamber a round.


----------



## brisk21 (Mar 14, 2008)

just for the record, I do agree with dredd and mike that whatever pistol YOU shoot well is the best pistol for you, reguardless of whatever else the pistol brings to the table.


----------



## Dredd (Feb 22, 2008)

brisk21 said:


> or maybe, deactivate the manual safety, make sure you dont get hung up on the manuel decocker, make sure there is no obstruction between the fireing pin and the external hammer that can get snagged on your shirt on the way out of the holster, then fire.


Yeah right...nice try :smt078

It's definitely not as ridiculous as you say. I can't name one time ever where a proper holster, and proper practice would make an obstruction between the hammer and the firing pin, not to mention you are supposed to practice and with doing so you won't hit the decocker and won't even think about it. You're really reaching here, and I don't believe for a second that you could go with no experience and unholster your Glock or whatever striker fired pistol you choose and be accurate on target. That only comes through practice, and if you practice with ANY weapon system it becomes an extension of yourself. To say what you said is so far fetched it's just plain crazy.


----------



## kenn (Dec 13, 2007)

submoa said:


> It gained a lot of allure from the NYC ban and being favored by rappers. [/B]


I think it's because "Glock" _does_ rhyme with quite a few of words.

"I got a glock that say 'Pac run the bloc" - 2pac

"I don't leave the block, without my Glock" (which is just good advice)
G-Unit

"Nothing left to do, but buy some shells for my glock "
Snoop

...and then everyone wonders why rappers get shot.
It would nice to hear "Fabrique Nationale" worked into a song every now and then.


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

kenn said:


> I think it's because "Glock" _does_ rhyme with quite a few of words.
> 
> "I got a glock that say 'Pac run the bloc" - 2pac
> 
> ...


Rock out with your Glock out.


----------

