# Myth of knockdown power



## GCBHM

What is your caliber of choice, and why?

I have come to rest with the Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr 9MM for a couple reasons. First, I get better shot placement with the 9mm. Secondly bc after doing a little research I have come to believe that there is no such thing as "knockdown power", And the HCD has extremely good reviews and passes the FBIs ballistics tests. Lastly, I've read multiple accounts of people being shot with you name it calibers only to keep going. In most cases the stop is a psychological rather than a physical one. Not that I am opposed to other calibers. I'm not! I just shoot better with a 9mm, I am able to carry more rounds to stay in the fight longer, and it is cheaper than .40 & .45. 

So what is your caliber of choice and why?


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## Pistol Pete

Bigger/heavier bullets do seem to hit harder, will certainly knock steel down with more authority than lighter bullets. Not the same as shooting a human tho, I guess.


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## GCBHM

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

Myths and Misunderstandings: Handgun Stopping Power | Geek With a Gun


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> What is your caliber of choice, and why?
> 
> I have come to rest with the Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr 9MM for a couple reasons. First, I get better shot placement with the 9mm. Secondly bc after doing a little research *I have come to believe that there is no such thing as "knockdown power"*, And the HCD has extremely good reviews and passes the FBIs ballistics tests. Lastly, I've read multiple accounts of people being shot with you name it calibers only to keep going. In most cases the stop is a psychological rather than a physical one. Not that I am opposed to other calibers. I'm not! I just shoot better with a 9mm, I am able to carry more rounds to stay in the fight longer, and it is cheaper than .40 & .45.
> 
> So what is your caliber of choice and why?


You are correct with this assumption. When someone drops or falls backwards from being hit by a handgun round, it is usually the result of the round hitting heavy bone or a major part of the central nervous system. It can also be the result of severe pain or a psychological reaction as well.

My preferred 9mm loads are as follows (in no particular order);

Federal 124gr +P HST
Federal 147gr +P HST
Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger RA9TA 127gr +P+ JHP*
Of these, the Federal HST's seem to have the most consistent expansion performance record. The Gold Dot loads have a proven track record and tend to offer top notch penetration and since they are bonded bullets, they hold together excellently. But then, so do the HST's.

The reality of choosing loads is this. You are not going to know if you took the right decision until you actually have to use that gun in your defense. And even then, you are only going to know how well it worked for that specific case.

* This load is the last choice of the loads in my list.


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## paratrooper

GCBHM said:


> What is your caliber of choice, and why?
> 
> I have come to rest with the Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr 9MM for a couple reasons. First, I get better shot placement with the 9mm. Secondly bc after doing a little research I have come to believe that there is no such thing as "knockdown power", And the HCD has extremely good reviews and passes the FBIs ballistics tests. Lastly, I've read multiple accounts of people being shot with you name it calibers only to keep going. In most cases the stop is a psychological rather than a physical one. Not that I am opposed to other calibers. I'm not! I just shoot better with a 9mm, I am able to carry more rounds to stay in the fight longer, and it is cheaper than .40 & .45.
> 
> So what is your caliber of choice and why?


I'd be hard-pressed to place any one brand of ammo over another, when it comes to stopping power. A lot of it is just commercial hype and the need to come out with a new "this is the real deal" round every so often, in order to please the public.

My caliber of choice? Depends upon what I happen to be carrying that day. It's all good.............


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## pic

There are physics involved when a heavier object collides with another.
Think about a truck colliding with smaller vehicle.
Some people resist the words "knockdown power"
In my opinion "knockdown power" exists


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> You are correct with this assumption. When someone drops or falls backwards from being hit by a handgun round, it is usually the result of the round hitting heavy bone or a major part of the central nervous system. It can also be the result of severe pain or a psychological reaction as well.
> 
> My preferred 9mm loads are as follows (in no particular order);
> 
> Federal 124gr +P HST
> Federal 147gr +P HST
> Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP
> Winchester Ranger RA9TA 127gr +P+ JHP*
> Of these, the Federal HST's seem to have the most consistent expansion performance record. The Gold Dot loads have a proven track record and tend to offer top notch penetration and since they are bonded bullets, they hold together excellently. But then, so do the HST's.
> 
> The reality of choosing loads is this. You are not going to know if you took the right decision until you actually have to use that gun in your defense. And even then, you are only going to know how well it worked for that specific case.
> 
> * This load is the last choice of the loads in my list.


Well, it's really more than an assumption. I've done a pretty good amount of study on it. That said, I like all the rounds you mentioned. I would tend to go with a 124 as it seems to cause more damage, but I really think given my circumstances, any will do.


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## GCBHM

pic said:


> There are physics involved when a heavier object collides with another.
> Think about a truck colliding with smaller vehicle.
> Some people resist the words "knockdown power"
> In my opinion "knockdown power" exists


Read the studies I posted. There are plenty other ballistic studies as well. I used to think knockdown power existed too, but it would seem as though it really doesn't. It is a perception. That said, perception is reality whether it's true or not. It's all marketing really.


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## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> I'd be hard-pressed to place any one brand of ammo over another, when it comes to stopping power. A lot of it is just commercial hype and the need to come out with a new "this is the real deal" round every so often, in order to please the public.
> 
> My caliber of choice? Depends upon what I happen to be carrying that day. It's all good.............


I agree with this! At the end of the day, it's all relative. It's interesting you used "stopping power" rather than "knockdown power". There is a difference, which I think you know.


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## rustygun

.45 ACP. Not that there is anything wrong with other calibers but when I look at a .45 bullet compared to others I don't need fancy statistics to tell me which would do more damage.


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> .45 ACP. Not that there is anything wrong with other calibers but when I look at a .45 bullet compared to others I don't need fancy statistics to tell me which would do more damage.


Then you're saying you really dont know. Bc if you actually study ballistics, the statistics dont lie. But you believe what you want!


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> .45 ACP. Not that there is anything wrong with other calibers but when I look at a .45 bullet compared to others I don't need fancy statistics to tell me which would do more damage.


"A couple things you might have heard that I hope we've debunked:

"All good defensive calibers start with a 4." - grant even mentions this one in his conclusion, quoted above. It's incredibly common in the firearms world. The people saying this are claiming that .40 S&W is the smallest caliber that will be an effective defensive round. Do the data support this? Clearly not. This is, to be blunt, bullshit posturing. It's the sort of thing that people say when they haven't done any research on the topic, but when they want to sound very manly. Apparently reading isn't manly?
"Carry the biggest caliber you can handle." - This one is squirrely. If by "handle" you mean delivering fast, accurate shots under stress consistently, then this is at least sort of okay. The problem is that you don't have to carry the biggest round you can handle to be effective. I can shoot a 10mm quite well (I even got some darned good hits with a .500 S&W magnum the other day), but I carry a 9mm because I shoot it faster and more accurately at speed. I bet I'm not the only one who experiences an improvement in shooting performance by stepping down from my maximum caliber, either. This is where that balance comes in. Personally, I want to end any defensive encounter as quickly as possible. If I can get 2-3 good hits with quality 9mm defensive ammunition in under 3 seconds (and I can), that's better to me than getting those same hits in 4 seconds with a .45ACP (I also can). In this case, the biggest caliber I can handle isn't the best fit for my goals as a defensive shooter.
I'll leave you with my conclusion, which will echo those of the other gentlemen: Your success in a defensive encounter is much more about training, mindset, speed, shot placement and ammunition quality than it is about caliber. Pick a gun you can control, practice with it a lot (under stress when possible), and carry it loaded with quality ammunition."


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## Steve M1911A1

"Knockdown power" isn't really a myth. Rather, it's a fantastical expectation.

The beginner believes the fantasy that if the bullet is big enough, and hits "hard enough," then the, um, target will drop like a stone.

Well, it (he?) will... But it isn't quite enough to merely hit it (him?) with a big, "hard hitting" bullet. There's much more to it than that.

If you hit with a head shot at close range, and if the bullet penetrates the skull and deeply enters the brain, and if the right part of the brain is injured, then the, um, target will indeed be very likely to drop like a stone. Not with certainty, but very likely.
Similarly, if you hit the cervical area of the, um, target's spine, even with a frontal shot, and the bullet sufficiently disrupts the spinal column itself, then the, um, target will indeed drop like a stone. And this one is certain and for sure.
And, miracle of miracles, it is possible to accomplish this feat with a mere .22 rimfire cartridge!

Note that the one thing that both of my descriptions have in common is a shooter who can achieve uncommon accuracy and very precise bullet placement.
And this is where the fantasy begins. Many new shooters really believe that they can reliably deliver this sort of effective shot while engaged in a gunfight.
The rest of us know from real-life experience that shots like these are next to impossible to achieve...on purpose. But accidents do happen.

So, there really are "knockdown" shots. It isn't a myth.
These "knockdown" shots do not require big, heavy bullets at "knockdown" velocities. Even my little .380 can do the job.
But if you truly believe that you can deliver a "knockdown" shot at will during a gunfight, then you are delusional and are fantasizing.


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## rustygun

GCBHM said:


> Then you're saying you really dont know. Bc if you actually study ballistics, the statistics dont lie. But you believe what you want!


Thanks man


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> "A couple things you might have heard that I hope we've debunked:
> 
> "All good defensive calibers start with a 4." - grant even mentions this one in his conclusion, quoted above. It's incredibly common in the firearms world. The people saying this are claiming that .40 S&W is the smallest caliber that will be an effective defensive round. Do the data support this? Clearly not. This is, to be blunt, bullshit posturing. It's the sort of thing that people say when they haven't done any research on the topic, but when they want to sound very manly. Apparently reading isn't manly?
> "Carry the biggest caliber you can handle." - This one is squirrely. If by "handle" you mean delivering fast, accurate shots under stress consistently, then this is at least sort of okay. The problem is that you don't have to carry the biggest round you can handle to be effective. I can shoot a 10mm quite well (I even got some darned good hits with a .500 S&W magnum the other day), but I carry a 9mm because I shoot it faster and more accurately at speed. I bet I'm not the only one who experiences an improvement in shooting performance by stepping down from my maximum caliber, either. This is where that balance comes in. Personally, I want to end any defensive encounter as quickly as possible. If I can get 2-3 good hits with quality 9mm defensive ammunition in under 3 seconds (and I can), that's better to me than getting those same hits in 4 seconds with a .45ACP (I also can). In this case, the biggest caliber I can handle isn't the best fit for my goals as a defensive shooter.
> *I'll leave you with my conclusion, which will echo those of the other gentlemen: Your success in a defensive encounter is much more about training, mindset, speed, shot placement and ammunition quality than it is about caliber. Pick a gun you can control, practice with it a lot (under stress when possible), and carry it loaded with quality ammunition."*


On this, we are in complete agreement.

I would like to add that there is truth to the concept of larger more powerful calibers and loads having a greater edge in a gunfight when effective hits are delivered. This by no means is meant to disparage the use of modern 9mm loads which also have improved dramatically. What it does mean is that a larger bullet, of proper design for defensive work, is going to have an edge when it enters a perps body, providing other factors are at play. Is this guaranteed? Of course not. Does it happen. Yes it does.

My primary carry is one of my gen3 Glock 23's, which of course is a .40S&W pistol. I also have a .45ACP and a number of other .40's and 9mm's in my carry stable from which to choose. There is even a mouse gun in .380ACP for those unique situations. When I go out with one of my 9mm pistols on my hip, I do not feel lightly gunned because I train with that caliber, as well as the .40S&W, and I use quality ammunition.

You last paragraph, which I highlighted above, pretty much hits the nail on the head. One should carry the most powerful defensive load which they can deliver rounds to target accurately, consistently, and confidently. If that happens to be a 9mm, so be it. Certainly nothing wrong with that. If it is a .4S&W or a .45ACP, they would also be well armed. Point is, it is a totally individual and personal decision bases upon what you wrote and what works for the individual.

And like I said, you are only going to know if you took the right decision when the time comes that you are forced to use that gun. And even then you will only know how well it worked for that specific and unique situation.


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> I'd be hard-pressed to place any one brand of ammo over another, when it comes to stopping power. A lot of it is just commercial hype and the need to come out with a new "this is the real deal" round every so often, in order to please the public.
> 
> My caliber of choice? Depends upon what I happen to be carrying that day. It's all good.............


I avoid using the term "knockdown power" as I believe it may have found life in the dens of Hollywood. Like you, I prefer the term "stopping power" because that one has a measure of validity.


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## rustygun

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". There are far to many variables involved when studying actual shootings to provide a concise conclusion on what caliber would be better IMHO. I have read a few of these studies and there seems to be no clear winner. I shoot .45 ACP as well or better than 9mm to me the recoil is just as easy to manage. My favorite is .45 ACP.


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## GCBHM

Steve M1911A1 said:


> "Knockdown power" isn't really a myth. Rather, it's a fantastical expectation.
> 
> The beginner believes the fantasy that if the bullet is big enough, and hits "hard enough," then the, um, target will drop like a stone.
> 
> Well, it (he?) will... But it isn't quite enough to merely hit it (him?) with a big, "hard hitting" bullet. There's much more to it than that.
> 
> If you hit with a head shot at close range, and if the bullet penetrates the skull and deeply enters the brain, and if the right part of the brain is injured, then the, um, target will indeed be very likely to drop like a stone. Not with certainty, but very likely.
> Similarly, if you hit the cervical area of the, um, target's spine, even with a frontal shot, and the bullet sufficiently disrupts the spinal column itself, then the, um, target will indeed drop like a stone. And this one is certain and for sure.
> And, miracle of miracles, it is possible to accomplish this feat with a mere .22 rimfire cartridge!
> 
> Note that the one thing that both of my descriptions have in common is a shooter who can achieve uncommon accuracy and very precise bullet placement.
> And this is where the fantasy begins. Many new shooters really believe that they can reliably deliver this sort of effective shot while engaged in a gunfight.
> The rest of us know from real-life experience that shots like these are next to impossible to achieve...on purpose. But accidents do happen.
> 
> So, there really are "knockdown" shots. It isn't a myth.
> These "knockdown" shots do not require big, heavy bullets at "knockdown" velocities. Even my little .380 can do the job.
> But if you truly believe that you can deliver a "knockdown" shot at will during a gunfight, then you are delusional and are fantasizing.


I agree, and I think the distinction made is stopping power. Head or heart shots will usually stop someone where they are, and they will fall immediately, but "knocking" someone back and down like we see on TV isn't very realistic.


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". There are far to many variables involved when studying actual shootings to provide a concise conclusion on what caliber would be better IMHO. I have read a few of these studies and there seems to be no clear winner. I shoot .45 ACP as well or better than 9mm to me the recoil is just as easy to manage. My favorite is .45 ACP.


They aren't lies, it's statistical information based on the actual science of ballistics. If you like the .45, great! I do too!! I think it is one heck of a round! I've carried it, and I would not hesitate to carry it now, but the point is that there is no real such thing as knockdown power. There isn't enough of a difference btwn all the major rounds to give one more of an advantage over the other, so it really isn't the round that makes the difference as much as it is the one shooting it. Sure, when you compare apples to apples, a bigger, heavier round is more likely to cause more tissue damage, but tissue damage isn't what really stops a threat. If you compare a JHP 9mm to a .45 ball ammo shot, the 9mm is much more devastating. There are reports in which people shot multiple times with a .45 kept coming. One such report indicated the target took multiple hits with .40 and kept fighting. The final round that stopped the guy was a .223, and the guy was still talking when they put him in the ambulance. He died at the hospital later, so there really is no such thing as "knockdown" power. In that encounter, it took a .223 to STOP the guy.

I used to believe the .45 was the ultimate man stopper. Some swear the .357 is, but the truth is the shot is. It doesn't matter if it is a .22 or a .45, if the shot is placed where it is supposed to go you will stop the threat. That's the science of it. Perception will change based on variables, but the science is what it is. The SOF can use whatever they want, and most of the time they use a 9mm as their sidearm. There is a reason for that. It's like the SouthernBoy said...there is no way to know what will truly stop someone until you're in that situation. Your best bet is to find the round you perform best with, train, and hope you never have to use it. LOL


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> I avoid using the term "knockdown power" as I believe it may have found life in the dens of Hollywood. Like you, I prefer the term "stopping power" because that one has a measure of validity.


Agreed!


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> On this, we are in complete agreement.
> 
> I would like to add that there is truth to the concept of larger more powerful calibers and loads having a greater edge in a gunfight when effective hits are delivered. This by no means is meant to disparage the use of modern 9mm loads which also have improved dramatically. What it does mean is that a larger bullet, of proper design for defensive work, is going to have an edge when it enters a perps body, providing other factors are at play. Is this guaranteed? Of course not. Does it happen. Yes it does.
> 
> My primary carry is one of my gen3 Glock 23's, which of course is a .40S&W pistol. I also have a .45ACP and a number of other .40's and 9mm's in my carry stable from which to choose. There is even a mouse gun in .380ACP for those unique situations. When I go out with one of my 9mm pistols on my hip, I do not feel lightly gunned because I train with that caliber, as well as the .40S&W, and I use quality ammunition.
> 
> You last paragraph, which I highlighted above, pretty much hits the nail on the head. One should carry the most powerful defensive load which they can deliver rounds to target accurately, consistently, and confidently. If that happens to be a 9mm, so be it. Certainly nothing wrong with that. If it is a .4S&W or a .45ACP, they would also be well armed. Point is, it is a totally individual and personal decision bases upon what you wrote and what works for the individual.
> 
> And like I said, you are only going to know if you took the right decision when the time comes that you are forced to use that gun. And even then you will only know how well it worked for that specific and unique situation.


Well said! I agree completely. The excerpt is from one of the articles I posed above, and reading like that and studying ballistics reviews is what has helped to change my mind from using terms like knockdown power to using terms like stopping power, and choosing the round that I get best placement with. I used to be nothing but a .40 guy, but I don't use the round at all anymore. Not b/c it isn't a good round, but b/c I get better shot placement with the 9. I will use whatever is available, even if that's nothing but a BB gun...LOL!!! No seriously, .40 is a very good round, as are any of them when well placed. The issue becomes training. It is a mind over matter issue really. The only thing that will calm your mind in any given situation is confidence, which comes from competence, which comes from training. It really doesn't matter what one chooses to shoot as long as they shoot it well enough to win. That's all it boils down to!


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## rustygun

GCBHM said:


> They aren't lies, it's statistical information based on the actual science of ballistics. If you like the .45, great! I do too!! I think it is one heck of a round! I've carried it, and I would not hesitate to carry it now, but the point is that there is no real such thing as knockdown power. There isn't enough of a difference btwn all the major rounds to give one more of an advantage over the other, so it really isn't the round that makes the difference as much as it is the one shooting it. Sure, when you compare apples to apples, a bigger, heavier round is more likely to cause more tissue damage, but tissue damage isn't what really stops a threat. If you compare a JHP 9mm to a .45 ball ammo shot, the 9mm is much more devastating. There are reports in which people shot multiple times with a .45 kept coming. One such report indicated the target took multiple hits with .40 and kept fighting. The final round that stopped the guy was a .223, and the guy was still talking when they put him in the ambulance. He died at the hospital later, so there really is no such thing as "knockdown" power. In that encounter, it took a .223 to STOP the guy.
> 
> I used to believe the .45 was the ultimate man stopper. Some swear the .357 is, but the truth is the shot is. It doesn't matter if it is a .22 or a .45, if the shot is placed where it is supposed to go you will stop the threat. That's the science of it. Perception will change based on variables, but the science is what it is. The SOF can use whatever they want, and most of the time they use a 9mm as their sidearm. There is a reason for that. It's like the SouthernBoy said...there is no way to know what will truly stop someone until you're in that situation. Your best bet is to find the round you perform best with, train, and hope you never have to use it. LOL


Ballistics (gr. βάλλειν ('ba'llein'), "throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

Ballistics are easily measured in a controlled environment. They're affect in real world situation's is not so easy to measure IMO.


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## SouthernBoy

rustygun said:


> Ballistics (gr. βάλλειν ('ba'llein'), "throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.
> 
> *Ballistics are easily measured in a controlled environment. They're affect in real world situation's is not so easy to measure IMO.*


This is true and is why one should carry the best caliber and load for their particular wants, needs, and requirements. The number of variables that enter the picture when a bullet and the human body intersect is mind boggling. Ammunition companies do a fabulous job of R&D and getting products to the market that offer the best performance for the public. But the variables.... they are Murphy's Law at work in earnest. Anything you can imagine that can happen is candidate for actually taking place.

Most of the folks with whom I have had conversations and who have been involved in gunfights tend to carry the more powerful offerings. One man has shot, as I recall, seven men, sending five of those to the great eternal void. His arm of choice was a 1911 .45ACP. Another one preferred a Glock 10mm. A third like the .40S&W. There have been a few 9mm's in this mix as well but most tended towards larger caliber offerings.

As you said above ballistics testing is one thing, actual real world gunfights are a totally different animal. Steve wrote that delivering effective hits to a target in the heat of a gunfight is going to be near impossible and more a measure of luck than that of careful deliberate fire. I agree. When the shooting starts, it's going to be how fast you can pull that trigger and hope that at least one or more of your shots is effective.

Variables. Just too many of the darned things.


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> Ballistics (gr. βάλλειν ('ba'llein'), "throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.
> 
> Ballistics are easily measured in a controlled environment. They're affect in real world situation's is not so easy to measure IMO.


Actually, some of the information in the ballistics reports come directly from real life events, not just controlled environments. Why don't you try reading some of these reports rather than shooting from the hip with unqualified opinions?


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> This is true and is why one should carry the best caliber and load for their particular wants, needs, and requirements. The number of variables that enter the picture when a bullet and the human body intersect is mind boggling. Ammunition companies do a fabulous job of R&D and getting products to the market that offer the best performance for the public. But the variables.... they are Murphy's Law at work in earnest. Anything you can imagine that can happen is candidate for actually taking place.
> 
> Most of the folks with whom I have had conversations and who have been involved in gunfights tend to carry the more powerful offerings. One man has shot, as I recall, seven men, sending five of those to the great eternal void. His arm of choice was a 1911 .45ACP. Another one preferred a Glock 10mm. A third like the .40S&W. There have been a few 9mm's in this mix as well but most tended towards larger caliber offerings.
> 
> As you said above ballistics testing is one thing, actual real world gunfights are a totally different animal. Steve wrote that delivering effective hits to a target in the heat of a gunfight is going to be near impossible and more a measure of luck than that of careful deliberate fire. I agree. When the shooting starts, it's going to be how fast you can pull that trigger and hope that at least one or more of your shots is effective.
> 
> Variables. Just too many of the darned things.


I think it is very true as to what Steve said regarding the heat of a real gun fight. I've talked with cops, most of whom tend to carry larger calibers, either .40 or .45, and I've talked with special operators, most of whom carry the 9mm b/c it is what they train with. That said, there is a huge difference in the fighting competence of a cop vs a Navy SEAL. Personally, I don't care what anyone carries. If it is what they want to carry, so be it. I'm not one of these guys who says if you're not carrying a .45 you're not serious about defense, nor am I one who says if you're not carrying a 9mm you're just full of crap b/c you'll never hit your target. The truth is none of us really know how we will perform in a given encounter, but our best bet is to be as comfortable with our selected pistol as possible. If it's a .45, very well. I could not care less. I'm not here to knock a .45. Anyone who does is a fool! What I am saying is that "knockdown" power is a myth. That has been proven with statistics from controlled tests as well as with information taken from actual real life situations. No caliber has enough of an advantage over the other to prove that the caliber of bullet is what makes the difference in actually stopping a threat. If you're carrying the .45 b/c you think it has more knockdown power, I think you're deceived. If you're carrying the .45 b/c it is what you like, shoot well with and just want that bigger bullet, fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! I've heard it said the .45 carries the pack equal to the punch of a 250lb man. Well...I've seen some 150lb men who can hit a heck of a lot harder than some 250lb men!!! Too many variables to determine one caliber is better than the other. Any of them will do in most situations. Pick one, train with it and pray you never have to use it for what it was intended. Your mind is your most valuable defensive weapon, so train it to win whether you're using a .22 or a bazooka.


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## rustygun

GCBHM:
When you say someone was hit multiple times with .45 and still kept coming and a .223 brought them down. Is this your science? I would ask where the person was hit with .45? what type of bullet was it? was this a large man or a small man? what was he wearing? when he was hit with one shot of .223 did the bullet impact bone and start to tumble or travel straight through? what distance did the encounter occur? Far to many variables in real life situation


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> GCBHM:
> When you say someone was hit multiple times with .45 and still kept coming and a .223 brought them down. Is this your science? I would ask where the person was hit with .45? what type of bullet was it? was this a large man or a small man? what was he wearing? when he was hit with one shot of .223 did the bullet impact bone and start to tumble or travel straight through? what distance did the encounter occur? Far to many variables in real life situation


First, I'm not the one who said it. It is an account from an actual gun fight. So no, it isn't "my science". If you would take the time to research and read, you wouldn't have to ask. You would see for yourself. And that is really the point isn't it.


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## rustygun

GCBHM said:


> First, I'm not the one who said it. It is an account from an actual gun fight. So no, it isn't "my science". If you would take the time to research and read, you wouldn't have to ask. You would see for yourself. And that is really the point isn't it.


I have. I just don't put my faith in them because I feel the data is incomplete in these studies and could never be ACCURATLY measured.


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> I have. I just don't put my faith in them because I feel the data is incomplete in these studies and could never be ACCURATLY measured.


Just b/c you don't agree with it doesn't mean it isn't accurately measured. I can't say what you have or haven't read or studied, but I do tend to think that if you had done ample research you'd at least have the mind that it isn't the caliber that matters as much as it is the one doing the shooting. The mind is the true defensive weapon, not the gun. Certainly not the caliber. If you like the .45, that's fine. As I said, so do I. The .45 isn't the issue. It is the myth of knockdown power. Like Steve said, you hit someone in the head with a .22, they are going down. You hit someone in the arm with a .45, they may eventually bleed out, maybe not, but they probably won't stop until they do IF they're determined to keep fighting. I dare say more have been killed with a .38 or 9mm than any other caliber out there. Does that mean they are more deadly? NO! Just the same, there really is no such thing as knockdown power.


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## rustygun

I never said other calibers were not effective. That is not my point. My point is there are to many variables that come into play when you start to try to decipher data on actual shooting to say any caliber is more effective than any other caliber even .45 . These studies have produced no clear winner IMO. When I look at a .45ACP JHP compared to my 9mm JHP the choice seems obvious to me. 

I have enjoyed the spirited discussion, I think we are on the same team.


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## GCBHM

rustygun said:


> I never said other calibers were not effective. That is not my point. My point is there are to many variables that come into play when you start to try to decipher data on actual shooting to say any caliber is more effective than any other caliber even .45 . These studies have produced no clear winner IMO. When I look at a .45ACP JHP compared to my 9mm JHP the choice seems obvious to me.
> 
> I have enjoyed the spirited discussion, I think we are on the same team.


I do believe now that we have talked it out we've come to the same conclusions. Spirited debate is often good for the soul! BTW, one of my favorite pistols of all time is the Colt or Springfield 1911. Between it and the BHP, it is hard to say there are better designs or better combat pistols. My next purchase will be the Springfield 1911 GI model. It is a reproduced version of what our troops were issued in WWII, but only $500! I don't have to tell you if one could find an original you'd pay three times that for it today!

There was one review I watched which compared the standard ball and JHP of the 9mm vs the .45 ACP, and I was shocked by the results. There really was not that much difference btwn the two! I was stunned. Of course for both the JHP was far more devastating, but comparing apples to apples ball to ball and JHP to JHP, the .45 didn't cause much more damage than the 9mm. In some areas the 9mm exceeded the .45 in the wound canal. Now that isn't to say the .45 won't make a big hole. I think most people will agree the .45 is a harder hitting round. However, that doesn't mean it will actually always cause more damage.






If you check out the differences, there is some difference but not all that much. You'd expect ball .45 to make a lot larger wound channel than the 9mm, or at least I would, but it doesn't! That amazed me.


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## SouthernBoy

Just for the benefit of this thread, here is a video worth watching (many may have seen this and a text file that is rather interesting.

Video;





These are worth viewing and reading just to increase your knowledge. Granted the text file contains a lot of opinions but according to the writer's stated experiences, a fair amount of fact as well. Y'all can be the judge of this. I still adhere to the mantra of employing the sidearm that works best for you. The one which you have proven to yourself that you are comfortable enough with its and your abilities to do the job at hand.


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> Just for the benefit of this thread, here is a video worth watching (many may have seen this and a text file that is rather interesting.
> 
> Video;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are worth viewing and reading just to increase your knowledge. Granted the text file contains a lot of opinions but according to the writer's stated experiences, a fair amount of fact as well. Y'all can be the judge of this. I still adhere to the mantra of employing the sidearm that works best for you. The one which you have proven to yourself that you are comfortable enough with its and your abilities to do the job at hand.


Most of the text seems to be opinion. Granted the opinion of someone who sees a lot of postmortem GSWs, but opinion nonetheless. I think it is right to employ the firearm that works best for you as the caliber isn't as important as placement, and certainly not as critical the mind. Suffice it to say the average person who gets shot is not going to get knocked down. Stopped maybe, but not knocked down.


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## lefty60

In a previous life I was in a position to study records of officer involved/self defense shootings. (for instance FBI stats) As a result, I believe in the K.I.S.S. principal which is;
1. Use quality defense/duty ammo.
2. Chose a caliber and size of handgun that you can use well.
3. Get the best training that you can find.
4. If you must shoot, SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND!

Believe what you want, do what you will--Stay Safe!

Just my 2 bits worth :mrgreen:


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## GCBHM

lefty60 said:


> In a previous life I was in a position to study records of officer involved/self defense shootings. (for instance FBI stats) As a result, I believe in the K.I.S.S. principal which is;
> 1. Use quality defense/duty ammo.
> 2. Chose a caliber and size of handgun that you can use well.
> 3. Get the best training that you can find.
> 4. If you must shoot, SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND!
> 
> Believe what you want, do what you will--Stay Safe!
> 
> Just my 2 bits worth :mrgreen:


And an excellent two cents at that! I really think that is the best advice anyone can give, regardless of caliber.


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## SouthernBoy

*"As you said above ballistics testing is one thing, actual real world gunfights are a totally different animal. Steve wrote that delivering effective hits to a target in the heat of a gunfight is going to be near impossible and more a measure of luck than that of careful deliberate fire. I agree. When the shooting starts, it's going to be how fast you can pull that trigger and hope that at least one or more of your shots is effective."*

I wrote the above paragraph in an early post on this thread and would like to clarify it a little.

Your ability to hit an assailant in a vital spot when a gunfight breaks out is going to be determined by several factors. How close is your target? How many of them are targets? Do you have some sort of advanced notice of what is about to take place? Have they already pulled their weapons? What is your attitude and mindset regarding shooting someone? How well have you trained and do you train often? What are you wearing? And so on.

In other words, it is not cut and dried as to how an extreme encounter is going to develop and unravel. Nothing is cast in stone with any of this. You might get lucky, see the situation develop, and get your gun out just to see them hightail it for the shadows. Or get your gun out and go to fighting before they realize you are not an easy target. Or you might be caught totally by surprise.

Nothing is for sure in any of this.


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## rustygun

Southernboy:
Thanks for the links to the video and text file. I found those very interesting


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## Glock Doctor

I don't have a, 'favorite caliber'; and ballistics only confuse me! Consequently I just keep on shooting until the threat decides to, 'go South for the winter'. A handgun can be a: 22 LR, 38 Special, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, whatever! As I said: Ballistics only confuse me - Especially PISTOL ballistics! Just like when you're hunting: If you fire and it's still standing on its feet, ...... shoot it again! Ballistics, baa humbug!


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## GCBHM

Glock Doctor said:


> I don't have a, 'favorite caliber'; and ballistics only confuse me! Consequently I just keep on shooting until the threat decides to, 'go South for the winter'. A handgun can be a: 22 LR, 38 Special, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, whatever! As I said: Ballistics only confuse me - Especially PISTOL ballistics! Just like when you're hunting: If you fire and it's still standing on its feet, ...... shoot it again! Ballistics, baa humbug!


LOL...probably the best way to look at it!


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> *"As you said above ballistics testing is one thing, actual real world gunfights are a totally different animal. Steve wrote that delivering effective hits to a target in the heat of a gunfight is going to be near impossible and more a measure of luck than that of careful deliberate fire. I agree. When the shooting starts, it's going to be how fast you can pull that trigger and hope that at least one or more of your shots is effective."*
> 
> I wrote the above paragraph in an early post on this thread and would like to clarify it a little.
> 
> Your ability to hit an assailant in a vital spot when a gunfight breaks out is going to be determined by several factors. How close is your target? How many of them are targets? Do you have some sort of advanced notice of what is about to take place? Have they already pulled their weapons? What is your attitude and mindset regarding shooting someone? How well have you trained and do you train often? What are you wearing? And so on.
> 
> In other words, it is not cut and dried as to how an extreme encounter is going to develop and unravel. Nothing is cast in stone with any of this. You might get lucky, see the situation develop, and get your gun out just to see them hightail it for the shadows. Or get your gun out and go to fighting before they realize you are not an easy target. Or you might be caught totally by surprise.
> 
> Nothing is for sure in any of this.


I think this is true as well. Nothing ever goes according to plan. Your best bet is to be trained as well as you can be, and pray it works out in your favor if you ever do get mixed up in a real fight.


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## Steve M1911A1

The Myth of Knockdown Power...

_Well, there won't be any knockdown, if you myth._

(Sorry 'bout that. I couldn't help it.)


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## paratrooper

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The Myth of Knockdown Power...
> 
> _Well, there won't be any knockdown, if you myth._
> 
> (Sorry 'bout that. I couldn't help it.)


Good one.........:anim_lol:


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## paratrooper

Glock Doctor said:


> I don't have a, 'favorite caliber'; and ballistics only confuse me! Consequently I just keep on shooting until the threat decides to, 'go South for the winter'. A handgun can be a: 22 LR, 38 Special, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, whatever! As I said: Ballistics only confuse me - Especially PISTOL ballistics! Just like when you're hunting: If you fire and it's still standing on its feet, ...... shoot it again! Ballistics, baa humbug!


When all the smoke has cleared and the dust has settled........you pretty much nailed it. :smt023


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## SouthernBoy

rustygun said:


> Southernboy:
> Thanks for the links to the video and text file. I found those very interesting


You're most welcome.


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## SouthernBoy

paratrooper said:


> Good one.........:anim_lol:


I'm thinking I should start drinking his scotch.


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## Steve M1911A1

...Actually, it's Knob Creek Bourbon.

I was brought up on Scotch, but I no longer like it.


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## GCBHM

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The Myth of Knockdown Power...
> 
> _Well, there won't be any knockdown, if you myth._
> 
> (Sorry 'bout that. I couldn't help it.)


LOLOLOL!!! Let there be no doubt!!!


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## GCBHM

Steve M1911A1 said:


> ...Actually, it's Knob Creek Bourbon.
> 
> I was brought up on Scotch, but I no longer like it.


McClellands is a good single malt scotch, but I think I am more of a bourbon guy myself.


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> McClellands is a good single malt scotch, but I think I am more of a bourbon guy myself.


Of all things, I tend to like Glenfiddich best for scotches in that price range.


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## paratrooper

Never been much of a drinker. I think I can count on two or three fingers how many times I've had a mixed drink. 

When it comes to beer, I only drink in a social setting. Maybe once or twice a year, I'll join my wife and have a beer with pizza. Not once in my life, have I had a drink while alone.

But, when it comes to Coke or Pepsi, I need to cut back, and I can if I want to. It's just that I don't want to. :smt033


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## GCBHM

SouthernBoy said:


> Of all things, I tend to like Glenfiddich best for scotches in that price range.


It is a smooth drink at a decent price, but the McClellands is $35 a bottle, and it's single malt. You ought to try it for that price!


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## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> Never been much of a drinker. I think I can count on two or three fingers how many times I've had a mixed drink.
> 
> When it comes to beer, I only drink in a social setting. Maybe once or twice a year, I'll join my wife and have a beer with pizza. Not once in my life, have I had a drink while alone.
> 
> But, when it comes to Coke or Pepsi, I need to cut back, and I can if I want to. It's just that I don't want to. :smt033


LOL...it's probably best you don't drink much...but then the soda is just as bad...


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## Steve M1911A1

GCBHM said:


> ...McClellands is $35 a bottle, and it's single malt. You ought to try it for that price!


Bruchladdich makes a non-peaty, single-malt, 20-something-year-old Scotch that I still like, but it's too incredibly expensive to buy.

A friend brought some back with him, from a trip that included his performance with the island's Choral Society, his game of golf at Saint Andrews Old Course, and some very serious Scotch sampling.
My golfing lady cousin went around our local course with him, and reported back that he plays "Zen golf." Not good golf. Just Zen golf.
I believe that he samples Scotch with a similar focus and intensity.


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## paratrooper

GCBHM said:


> LOL...it's probably best you don't drink much...but then the soda is just as bad...


Not once have I had so much soda that it made me do something stupid, or injure others.

I can drink and never worry about getting into a car. And.....it's a lot cheaper than booze.


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## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> Not once have I had so much soda that it made me do something stupid, or injure others.
> 
> I can drink and never worry about getting into a car. And.....it's a lot cheaper than booze.


Have you ever heard of the effects of sugar and obesity? If you've had a lot of soda you've done something stupid. Food for thought!


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## paratrooper

GCBHM said:


> Have you ever heard of the effects of sugar and obesity? If you've had a lot of soda you've done something stupid. Food for thought!


I might have given the impression that I drink too much of it. Although I do enjoy it, I don't let it become an everyday habit.


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## GCBHM

paratrooper said:


> I might have given the impression that I drink too much of it. Although I do enjoy it, I don't let it become an everyday habit.


Nah...just someone else trying to make a point.


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## lefty60

Where I come from, the boys mix "stuff" in their "adult beverages" and the men drink it straight up.:mrgreen:

Truth be known I have not consumed "adult beverages" for many years. And I no longer consume any form of "soda pop":smt033

This forum is a joy for shure:anim_lol:


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## paratrooper

lefty60 said:


> Where I come from, the boys mix "stuff" in their "adult beverages" and the men drink it straight up.:mrgreen:
> 
> Truth be known I have not consumed "adult beverages" for many years. And I no longer consume any form of "soda pop":smt033
> 
> This forum is a joy for shure:anim_lol:


I lived in Grants Pass for almost 4 yrs. I loved it there. Beautiful state and country.


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## shaolin

I think it what you feel comfortable with is the gun you should use. For me it's a 9mm on most days because i can shoot it well and put ammo in the K5 and my second choice is the .45acp. I don't like the way the .40 S&W shoots for me so it seldom I carry it. However I do see the merits of having more rounds and a larger bullet and it is up to the user to determine what is best for them. I am sure this debate will never be resolved but many of us like Steve don't want a heavy recoil gun and we can put a round into the center mass because we practice and make the best with what we have. I am still carrying the same S&W 3913 that I have had for the past 8 years when others dump their tried and true for the latest new gun. Stick with what works and I am sure no matter the caliber; the bad guy will have a bad day. There are too many variables in a real shootout to say a .45acp or .40S&W is best over another guy who choses a .380acp or 9mm.


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## SouthernBoy

GCBHM said:


> It is a smooth drink at a decent price, but the McClellands is $35 a bottle, and it's single malt. You ought to try it for that price!


Glenfiddich is also a single malt scotch. I'll may take your suggestion and try McClellands... thanks.

Now I must apologize for pulling this thread off topic.


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## Steve M1911A1

...Off-topic, but onto a delectable side-track.

(Sorry 'bout the mixed metaphor. I've never metaphor I didn't like.)


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## LRO76

*9mm*



GCBHM said:


> What is your caliber of choice, and why?
> 
> I have come to rest with the Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr 9MM for a couple reasons. First, I get better shot placement with the 9mm. Secondly bc after doing a little research I have come to believe that there is no such thing as "knockdown power", And the HCD has extremely good reviews and passes the FBIs ballistics tests. Lastly, I've read multiple accounts of people being shot with you name it calibers only to keep going. In most cases the stop is a psychological rather than a physical one. Not that I am opposed to other calibers. I'm not! I just shoot better with a 9mm, I am able to carry more rounds to stay in the fight longer, and it is cheaper than .40 & .45.
> 
> So what is your caliber of choice and why?


I have no prob. with the 9mm , but I like my .40 Beretta PX4 , the recoil isn't any worse than the 9mm & the last I heard the F.B.I. uses the .40 cal.


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## Bisley

Knockdown power is just another old term that has been discarded by the more studious gun nuts, because they realized quickly that it is simply an illusion that has been misconstrued and then proliferated by decades of uneducated pontificating, mostly by newbies who have learned to hit a target and therefore feel the need to preach to those whom they deem to possess lesser skills and knowledge. 

The more serious folks that practice self-defense methods with guns understand that a threat from another human is stopped by simply rendering him unable to continue an attack. With a handgun, that usually means hitting a nerve center or causing a catastrophic drop in blood pressure, or possibly by breaking just the right bone. Most guns in the 9mm to .45ACP range can do this with self-defense ammo, if fired into the right location, though multiple hits may still be required.

As for scotch, I buy Glenfiddich, neat, because it's available locally. But, truthfully, I've never had any single malt brand that I didn't like.


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## Steve M1911A1

Good Scotch, taken neat, has tremendous knockdown power. :yawinkle: :smt083


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## rustygun

The best knockdown power I have witnessed. Involves some peaches, a few special ingredients and a copper kettle. I have seen at least once or twice or maybe a dozen, tends to make things fuzzy.


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