# Replacement for a S&W, M&P Shield 9mm Para



## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I carry (EDC) mostly the Shield in 9 mm Para in the office, but I am really disappointed in that gun. 
The first that I bought was a piece of junk not reliable at all, more on shipping trucks than in my hand, a true Monday product. I sold it to a Pawn shop (lost too much money that way) and bayed practically the same gun brand new again. It holds like a champ. I really like it how it feels, but for some reason I can't shot that thing accurate, not at least what I expect from the gun. 
If I shoot slowly on the line I can make very good hits and nice tight groups even up to 45 feet. But fast drawing and shooting at a target in a distance of 10-20 feet, forget about it. Well and that is exactly what an EDC is for. It would be very remote that someone attacks you in slow motion to give you time to practice accuracy. 
The hits are so far spread out. I know it’s me. My neighbor is much better with his Shield 9 but also not really good or satisfying whit it in fast drawing and shooting in a distance up to 20 feet. 
Is it the trigger? When I shot the the Taurus PT111Pro, the Bersa Thunder in 380 or the HK USP 40c it looks a lot different and the hits on the Target especially with the Taurus and the HK don’t look that bad even in a distance of 30 feet than with the Shield in a distance of 15 feet. 
It can’t be practice because I shoot the shield every 2-3 weeks and then always at least 150-200 rounds. I believe the EDC carry gun can’t be practiced enough. So the gun is broken in and had at least 2500 rounds through it. The gun itself works like a Swiss clockwork I never had any hiccup with it, regardless of ammo. It looks like I am better with the Shield shooting 115 gr ammo but I don’t want to carry 115 gr loads.

Anyone an Idea regarding size of the gun that has a manual safety to replace the Shield, without printing on a shirt while IWB so my co ladies in the office not becoming a nervous wreck? 
I would be looking in a 9 Para, 40 or 45 (recoil is not really a problem for me) with at least a 3” barrel. The price of the gun would be secondary for my EDC office gun, even if the skirts in the house think I am cheap. I’m sure that the shield becomes a permanent place way back in the gun safe. I’ll think I am very good equipped for CCW outside the office dress code. HK, Taurus, M&P, all fine guns to carry.

Is someone here that has experience with the PT 7 series or XD? What else is out there that fits the size and would be worth to give it a try?


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I would encourage you to check out the Beretta PX4 Storm compact. It is a great little gun.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Sometimes a pistol just won't shoot like you want it. Grip angle, trigger reach, trigger break, trigger take up, grip circumference, etc... It sounds like you've given your Shield more than ample time, but it just isn't working for you. It may just be the thinner grip of a single stack 9mm.

Remember, any 3 inch barreled pistol with it's short sight radius is going to be much less foregiving than one with more. I've shot the Walther PPS and was very accurate with it. You may want to look at or preferably shoot one if you're looking for a slim single stack 9mm. They make models with a thumb safety.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

CZ 2075 RAMI? Cocked and Locked or with a decocker. 10 rounds in the gun and 14 in the reload and about the same size as a Shield.

Or <Gasp> get a Glock 43.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

denner said:


> Sometimes a pistol just won't shoot like you want it. Grip angle, trigger reach, trigger break, trigger take up, grip circumference, etc... It sounds like you've given your Shield more than ample time, but it just isn't working for you. It may just be the thinner grip of a single stack 9mm.
> 
> Remember, any 3 inch barreled pistol with it's short sight radius is going to be much less foregiving than one with more. I've shot the Walther PPS and was very accurate with it. You may want to look at or preferably shoot one if you're looking for a slim single stack 9mm. They make models with a thumb safety.


I started to mention the PPS, great gun, but did not know they offered it with a safety. That would be my suggestion if he doesn't want a hammer fire.


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## lefty60 (Oct 13, 2012)

Not intending to insult you. But if you can shoot it well from a rest it is a training issue, not a gun issue. A good pistol instructor could have you shooting well in about 15-20 minutes.

It is very difficult to self diagnose and correct the issue. You need someone that knows what to look for to watch you shoot.

Then it becomes a simple matter to shoot the pistol well.

Just my opinion, based on years of being a handgun instructor.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

GCBHM said:


> I started to mention the PPS, great gun, but did not know they offered it with a safety. That would be my suggestion if he doesn't want a hammer fire.


GCBHM, you are correct, its the CCP that has the safety not the PPS.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

lefty60 said:


> Not intending to insult you. But if you can shoot it well from a rest it is a training issue, not a gun issue. A good pistol instructor could have you shooting well in about 15-20 minutes.
> It is very difficult to self diagnose and correct the issue. You need someone that knows what to look for to watch you shoot.
> Then it becomes a simple matter to shoot the pistol well.
> Just my opinion, based on years of being a handgun instructor.


Weeeellll - 15 - 20 minutes? Hummm
However I know exactly what I do. 
Trigger control is the Topic on this gun. The gun is almost as worse as the old Sigma guns out of the same Manufacturer. Some issues are forgiving with one shoter but not with the next. People are not equal in no cases.

The trigger move have to be in line with the barrel if you want to hit your aimed target. That is the problem. The breaking point on the Shield is measured by 8.8 pounds (lyman digital). The trigger breaks very crisp but to pull the trigger in line with the barrel is only good to handle on the stand with slow shots. At least for me. Faster shooting and the trigger will be pushed out of the line (alignment with the barrel) mostly to the left.
I know how to shoot a gun and a lifetime ago, in the Deutschen Bundeswehr, I had given weapon classes. Germans know how to shoot too, ask your grandfather.

I know it's me, but honest S&W automatics are well known for their bad triggers. I thought about buying a apex trigger kit. I don't want to sell the gun, the gun is great besides the trigger, but I couldn't find anyone that cult confirm that with the apex modification this kind of problems with the weapon would be solved and apex ask for snappy 92 Dollars for 2 springs and a sear.



> GCHBM
> I would encourage you to check out the Beretta PX4 Storm compact. It is a great little gun.


I have the PX4 Compact but that is a gun like my M&P 9c. In the M&P compact class I have several guns. I believe there is a smaller PX4 than the compact but I am not sure at the moment.



> Smitt79
> Or <Gasp> get a Glock 43.


I will never have a Glockmeister product in my house. Period. But that would be a discussion for a other day.


> Smitt79
> CZ 2075 RAMI? Cocked and Locked or with a decocker. 10 rounds in the gun and 14 in the reload and about the same size as a Shield.


You may be right. I was never in CZ. I don't know why but I always clicked next on this guns. I'll think I should check that out a little.



> denner
> I've shot the Walther PPS and was very accurate with it.


Me too!
Well I am actually a Walther guy. I was raised close to Walther in Ulm Germany and many of my friend parents back than worked for them. I have a lot of Walther guns but I don't wear a gun without manual safety. An toddler grabs moms gun in the purse and shoot mom in the head, or lays bullet fire over the entire store. Only with guns without safety, but never with a manual secured gun. But that is an converse topic that alarms the glockists and people that can't remember if they turned the stove off and have to run twice back in the house to check if the stove is off or not. Back outside thy have to go back a third time because they forgot the car keys.  
I grew up with guns and the gun that we had had always a manual thumb safety. My first guns had a manual safety and later in the military I had there also always a manual safety on the guns.

Thanks for the answers so far.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

You will probably lose the $92.50 anyway, in a trade. I also didn't want to spend it, so I did a "fluff and buff," using a video of installing the Apex to see what the sear should look like. It helped enough that I'm willing to invest some more time in it. The Apex kit should help even more, because it comes with lighter springs. It wouldn't be that hard, if you have patience and some small tool skills.

If the Shield fits your hand properly, the XDs will, also, and it has a much better trigger, if you don't mind the grip safety and can live without the lever safety. Personally, I'm trying to make my Shield perform to my satisfaction for a while longer, before giving up on it, but I understand your frustration with it.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

I love my S&W 3913 more than I do the S&W Shield as it shoots better for me. I carry the Shield because of weight but for me I can hit a baseball from quick draw at 7 yards so I guess it will do until I get better. Heck I bet we all wish we could shoot cowboy style and hit a bottle cap at 15 yards from the hip. You seem to know more about guns than I do so I won't say it you and the gun. Good luck on finding the EDC gun of your choice. I too like a heavy for caliber load so I am currently carrying the 147 Ranger T but the 115 grain Critical Defense works great in the Shield in bare gel and denim test. The loads that I have tried are
124 grain HST
147 grain HST
147 grain +p HST
115 Critical Defense
147 grain Ranger T


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I just learned from a co-worker what the problem is.
He took my Shield in his hands, checked the Numbers and said; "well - see you've got a MA compliance model". I didn't even know that there is a comunistwealth model of the shield.
Why the heck does a LGS in Texas sell MA compliance Models? Does someone know if I can get the non-MA compliance sear and springs from S&W for less than 92 Dollar, or do they not sell it in the aftermarket? The outside MA Shield trigger goes with 5.5 to 6.0 pound, meaning half the trigger load. 

I really like that little gun and the apex kit would make the gun 100 Dollar more expensive. But I’ll think (me stupid) I give the apex a try. It should not be a problem to install, being a Maschienenbau Ingenieur (mechanical engineer) and hopefully not being overeducated to mess up the gun 
I’ll think I call S&W to find out if they send me the parts or if I have to order from apex.

But I still will check out the CZ and the XD guns. Not that I need more guns but you know… being a gun nut.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

Went at 11:00 am local time to the indoor range rented a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield that is not in MA compliance.
I have to say I love this gun, shot only 100 rounds of 115gr FMJ American Eagle. Very nice and a very smooth shooter compare to my MA compliant S&W-Sigma 9 Shield.

Why in the hell does a LGS in Texas sell comunistwealth guns in Texas. I will have a talk to my LGS. I buy a lot of stuff there every year. I am ..st.
On the S&W web page you will find the serial numbers from that MA - Sigma 9 Shield guns. 
Product: Smith & Wesson M&P SHIELD? 9mm MA Compliant
But that should be made known in all Gun Blocks. May be here too. A sticky note with such information on special editions that is may from relevance for a gun buyer.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

Glad that you figured out the problem. The Shield is a great pistol. Have you ever shot the 3913? It's a great single stack too.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

The 3913? Well - I couldn't find any gun from S&W with that number. I guess that gun is discontinued? Does this gun have a different name?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

PT111Pro said:


> Why in the hell does a LGS in Texas sell comunistwealth guns in Texas. .


Well, I agree, if you were a walkin someone should have advised you as such. However, the store may sell pistols to other states as well including The Peoples Republic of Massachussets. Either it was intentional or they may have grabbed the wrong pistol would be my guess.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Having reworked the sear on my Shield, I suspect that it also had the MA sear. There was an obvious outward 'hook' on it at the break point that could have had no other function but to make the trigger harder to pull. By simply filing it and sanding it till it looked like the Apex sear, it improved the trigger pull significantly. Changing the spring would likely have improved it still more, and polishing the striker safety pin is also supposed to help, though I didn't do it because I didn't want to remove the rear sight to get at it.

How do you identify the MA models?


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Smitty79 said:


> CZ 2075 RAMI? Cocked and Locked or with a decocker. 10 rounds in the gun and 14 in the reload and about the same size as a Shield.
> 
> Or <Gasp> get a Glock 43.


The RAMI is a great shooter, if double stack with a hammer and safety is an option. But, it is considerably more bulky than the Shield, and the all steel construction and extra magazine capacity make it a lot heavier. Mine is one of the earlier models that had reliability problems, but a factory 'fluff and buff' fixed that, and it is now my favorite double stack sub compact - definitely the one I shoot the best with.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

> denner
> ....... The Peoples Republic of Massachussets


I bet The Peoples Republic of Messabchussets is a proud democracy.


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## LAGNAF (Apr 19, 2011)

The APEX M&P Shield carry kit is your friend.


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## PT111Pro (Nov 15, 2014)

I ordered the APEX carry kit this morning. Amazon sells it for 82.00 Dollar.
Amazon.com : Apex Tactical S&W Shield Trigger Kit for 9mm and .40 S&W : Other Products : Sports & Outdoors


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

PT111Pro said:


> I ordered the APEX carry kit this morning. Amazon sells it for 82.00 Dollar.
> Amazon.com : Apex Tactical S&W Shield Trigger Kit for 9mm and .40 S&W : Other Products : Sports & Outdoors


Let us know how much it improves it.


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