# newb needs help choosing first handgun



## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

Title says it all. I have a very limited experience with guns. My dad owned a lot of guns when I was a kid, and he taught me basic gun safety. It has been a long time since I have fired a gun. Most my expierience comes from shooting ruger 10-22s, and 22 pistols. I cant remember if I have shot any other caliber besides 22 lr. The last year I have done a ton of research on guns, but that only helps so much. I still need to go down to the range and try out as many as I can, and I need to see what fits my hand and what I am most accurate with.

That being said, I wanted to come here first to narrow down what I will be shooting at the range. I dont have all the money in the world to piss away shooting .357 or .45acp at the range. This wont really effect which gun I choose, however. Anything under 1000$ is desirable. But, there is a gun that completely separates itself from the others and costs 1200$, then I will be spending 1200$. I am a 22 year old college kid, and I dont have the luxury of blowing money trying to find the perfect gun so I thought you all could help. Despite that, I am not afraid to spend on a gun that I like. I want to enjoy it and be happy with my choice.

I WILL NOT BE USING THE GUN AS A CCW. I repeat, I WILL NOT BE USING THE GUN AS A CCW. It will stay in my car secured but accessible, on the nightstand, or maybe even open carry if I go fishing or I am camping. Thats it. It will be used for self defense, a SHTF scenario, or to go to the range and enjoy it. I plan on buying more guns in the future, but for now this is what it will be used for.

What I am looking for:
A full sized 9mm pistol high capacity (14+ rounds). I think that's pretty self explanatory. It is a cheap round to learn on, the recoil is good for newbs, and I can afford to stock pile it. I dont want to buy a 686 and get in a bad habit of flinching or something that I have read about. If I had money to buy a 10-22 or a 22 revolver to learn on I would, but unfortunately I dont have that luxury. I want a gun for self defense asap to save me or my old lady, imo that throws the 22 out the window for now (yes I know all guns are deadly even 22lr).

Just from reading this is what Ive narrowed my choices down to:

glock 17/19- pretty much an obligatory mention, reliable, easy to clean and take apart for newbs, easy to use, you shoot it goes bang, no safety to fumble with in the dark. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I dont want to look like every other newb or glock tard and buy a glock just because. 

browning hi-power- seems like a great gun, its a steel frame I believe so it can help with recoil, the trigger is single action (idk why but this appeals to me to squeeze of shots for self defense), and ive just heard a lot of good stuff about it from people who appear to be reputable online. Idk why but i think I would enjoy it. I assume theres a reason its been around so long.

cz 75b or cz75 spo1- seems like a great gun, i love the way it looks, recoil seems minimal, its steel (idk why but that seems better than polymer), oh and theres an easy conversion kit to change it to 22lr so I could do that and learn on 22, but I would still have a 9mm for self defense.

berretta 92fs/m9- again kind of an obligatory mention, some hate it others love it, parts are cheap and accesible

sig p226- seems like a great gun the seals carry it, but it seems over priced. However, if i shoot it and fall in love (it fits my hand good, and im accurate) im willing to pay good money. This goes for any other gun

I think thats about it. The ones Im most strongly considering are the glocks, cz75b, or the hi-power. What do you shoot well? What fits you good? Whats the best value? Whats the best for a newb? Whats most appropriate for me out of what I listed. IF you want to list something else thats fine as long as you dont do this.

DONT TELL ME:
-to buy a 22 rifle/wheel gun 
- to not buy a gun 
-to buy a shotgun for home defense because its better
-to buy a compact pocket carry gun
-to buy a wheel gun because its more reliable (i know this and that will be my next purchase or a remington870)

If you suggest somethig not listed or a different caliber thats fine as long as it is addequate for self defense. Dont tell me to buy a 22. I would if i had that lxury

Thanks guys for your help, feel free to correct anything i got wrong. I am a newb. I realize there is no advice you guys can give me that will benefit me more than going to the range, but I want to take every measure to make an informed decision. Youre opinions on the guns I listed would be great thanks so much.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

You don't specify where you are, so here's some very general advice:

• Find a gun shop that has an attached range, or a range with an attached gun shop, and rent time on as many different pistols as you can afford. Thus, before you buy, you will find the one that suits you best. Do not expect us, who do not know you or your real needs, to give you useful advice on which one to buy. It's a very personal decision.

• Buy the pistol which feels best in your hands. All of the guns you will try will be more inherently accurate than you, so don't go by "accuracy" because you will not be an accurate shooter. Pistol shooting is a skill that is not easily learned, and, once learned, needs to be maintained on a daily basis through dry-fire practice and weekly live-fire sessions.

• The best way to learn quick, effective pistol shooting is to be taught or coached. It will be worth your while to invest some money in instruction, at least at first. Let a good coach teach you the fundamentals, then go on from there in any direction you prefer.

• The most effective use of your money includes at least a look at used pistols that have been well maintained. A gently used gun is your best value, and it frees more cash to be spent on instruction and on a belt-and-holster rig.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll make this real easy for you.

Buy a Beretta 92FS and be done with it. They are well within your budget and it is a world-class handgun. 

Or.....you could buy a Sig P226. Again, within your budget and just as good as the 92FS. 

Some things in life are so simple and obvious. :smt023


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> You don't specify where you are, so here's some very general advice:
> 
> • Find a gun shop that has an attached range, or a range with an attached gun shop, and rent time on as many different pistols as you can afford. Thus, before you buy, you will find the one that suits you best. Do not expect us, who do not know you or your real needs, to give you useful advice on which one to buy. It's a very personal decision.
> 
> ...


great advice thanks, especially the number 2 bullet point. I plan on paying for instruction at some point as soon as I can. I've thought about used guns, but how do I know as a new shooter if a gun is gently used or has had 250,000 rounds through it? I dont want to get ripped off. Also which gun would you recommend of the guns listed. Thanks, miuch appreciated!

Also I live in Indianapolis. There is a place here that you said where you can buy and has a range, but I heard its a ripoff to buy guns there and they are only good for renting them to use on the range.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> I'll make this real easy for you.
> 
> Buy a Beretta 92FS and be done with it. They are well within your budget and it is a world-class handgun.
> 
> ...


Why these two over the CZ75b? That is the one I am leaning towards, but that is all subject to change once I get to the range.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I'd do some post searching on this site as well if you have not already done so. The topic has been touched upon a time or two. At the end you will have to find what "you" prefer most. You really can't go wrong with the pistols you've mentioned, so I'm not seeing anything to dissuade you from, a good start I suppose.


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

I have not met anyone who has shot a CZ75 and did not think it was the most accurate gun they had used. Hopefully you will be able to rent one and shoot some rounds through one. Half of the fun is the searching!


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

bigjohn56 said:


> I have not met anyone who has shot a CZ75 and did not think it was the most accurate gun they had used. Hopefully you will be able to rent one and shoot some rounds through one. Half of the fun is the searching!


I have not read one shred of negative opinion on this gun. It will be the first gun I try at the range I think. :mrgreen:


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Gonna agree with Paratrooper... and also put a big thumbs up for the CZ 75BD.

I own all three and really couldn't tell you which I like more. All 3 are accurate and functional... and all 3 can take abuse. I find the CZ to be on par with the Beretta 92 as far as accuracy. I'm slightly less accurate with my 226 Tac Ops due to my limited range time... but i'm sure that will change this Summer. I spend more time teaching/instructing and less time shooting nowadays (unfortunately).

One of these 3 should feel good (ergonomics) and all are similar in price with the CZ being a little less. Sights on Beretta and Sig are much better than the CZ... so after changing em' out your now in the same price range for all 3. 

Trigger pull/break are different on all 3 and will come down to personal preference. Ease of takedown has to go to Beretta 1st, Sig 2nd and CZ coming in 3rd... although none are tricky like a Kahr CM9 (damn guide rod has a habit of not lining up in the slide).

Lots of choices out there and best to take some time and try a few at the range and get what you like or what's available as CZ's are becoming harder to find in a lot of areas.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> Gonna agree with Paratrooper... and also put a big thumbs up for the CZ 75BD.
> 
> I own all three and really couldn't tell you which I like more. All 3 are accurate and functional... and all 3 can take abuse. I find the CZ to be on par with the Beretta 92 as far as accuracy. I'm slightly less accurate with my 226 Tac Ops due to my limited range time... but i'm sure that will change this Summer. I spend more time teaching/instructing and less time shooting nowadays (unfortunately).
> 
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate the advice. Why do you feel the others are superior to Glock (I realize this doesnt mean you think glock is a bad firearm)?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

No, not at all as I carry a Glock as a duty weapon. I personally HATE the grip angle and although it can be overcome, I find it forces my point of aim high compared to the other guns out there. Glocks are as reliable and accurate as the other offerings out there... but if I had to choose a polymer, striker fired handgun I would lean towards a S&W M&P or wait for the Sig P320 to come out this Fall.

I honestly prefer a heavier, DA/SA with a decocker (no safety) like my Beretta 92G, Sig 226 or CZ75 BD. Stock sights on Glock leave a lot to be desired too imo (again, my opinion). Mags drop more freely and quicker in a metal frame gun with metal mags compared to poly guns with poly mags in my experience. Lots of aftermarket parts are available for Glock to customize it to your liking though... so if there's something you don't like, you can change it.

Hope I didn't anger any Glock fanboys out there... as you can tell i'm not brand loyal... I just like what I like.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Jordan said:


> Thanks, I appreciate the advice. Why do you feel the others are superior to Glock (I realize this doesnt mean you think glock is a bad firearm)?


Where did Tap-n-Rack insinuate that? I don't see where he even mentioned Glock in his original post? Just a hint, especially for newer shooters, referring to "superior" and "best" is very subjective when you are dealing with the main brands; Glock, Sig, Beretta, H&K, Ruger, CZ, S&W.. etc.....and the brands you have previously mentioned.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

denner said:


> Where did Tap-n-Rack insinuate that? I don't see where he even mentioned Glock in his original post? Just a hint, especially for newer shooters, referring to "superior" and "best" is very subjective when you are dealing with the main brands; Glock, Sig, Beretta, H&K, Ruger, CZ, S&W.. etc.....and the brands you have previously mentioned.


He mentioned the sig, 92fs, and cz but not the glock so I figured he thought (as in his opinion was) these were superior in his hands than a Glock. I realize that when it comes to these name brand high profile guns it is very subjective and is user dependent for which gun is superior. I think my posts indicated that very well. It turns out I was almost spot on as he responded he there were turn offs on the glock, and for him the 92fs and cz were better.

To answer your question, since you asked, i think I was fair to insinuate he thought the other guns were superior (for him) when he said this, "Hope I didn't anger any Glock fanboys out there... as you can tell i'm not brand loyal... I just like what I like."
If you read my first post I explicitly ask for peoples opinions, because I did not wish to receive responses like this.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Jordan said:


> He mentioned the sig, 92fs, and cz but not the glock so I figured he thought (as in his opinion was) these were superior to Glock. I realize that when it comes to these name brand high profile guns it is very subjective and is user dependent for which gun is superior. I think my posts indicated that very well. It turns out I was almost spot on as he responded he there were turn offs on the glock, and for him the 92fs and cz were better.
> 
> To answer your question, since you asked, i think I was fair to insinuate he thought the other guns were superior (for him) when he said this, "Hope I didn't anger any Glock fanboys out there... as you can tell i'm not brand loyal... I just like what I like."
> If you read my first post I explicitly ask for peoples opinions, because I did not wish to receive responses like this.


I understand, seen it many times. What's superior to x may not be superior to y. Some really like the grip on Glocks, some don't, even though some don't like the grip shoot them the best, but to say one is superior is subjective and that was the point of my post. Is that the best way for you to ask others what is best for you? I suppose, is a 92FS superior to a Glock 19? What's your opinion?


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

denner said:


> I understand, seen it many times.


What would you recommend for me? When I test these weapons at the range, what should I be looking for? Someone said not to weigh in too heavily on accuracy because with my lack of experience that is hard for me to judge.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Jordan said:


> What would you recommend for me? When I test these weapons at the range, what should I be looking for? Someone said not to weigh in too heavily on accuracy because with my lack of experience that is hard for me to judge.


As a very inexperienced shooter (you) compared to one (some on this forum) that is / are very experienced, you are going to have a tough job on your hands, not knowing what to look for in a good handgun.

You might decide to try a Taurus and feel that it shoots great, handles well, and is overall a very nice gun, and the price is right to boot. If you don't have the knowledge and experience, test shooting a gun really doesn't provide all that much information on which to base a good solid decision.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Jordan said:


> ...I've thought about used guns, but how do I know as a new shooter if a gun is gently used or has had 250,000 rounds through it? I dont want to get ripped off. Also which gun would you recommend of the guns listed. Thanks, miuch appreciated!


First of all, go to the gun shop with the best reputation in your area. This does not include big chains like Cabela's or Bass Pro, or others of the same ilk. A shop that serves cops might be a good choice.
Second, try to negotiate a "try before you buy" deal: the privilege to buy a gun, take it to an independent gunsmith for examination-or to carefully examine it for yourself-and then, if necessary, to return it for full credit against another, different gun. A reputable shop should not have a problem with this kind of deal.



Jordan said:


> Also I live in Indianapolis. There is a place here that you said where you can buy and has a range, but I heard its a ripoff to buy guns there and they are only good for renting them to use on the range.


Even if the only rental place is a ripoff, it will still be useful to rent guns there to try them out. Buy their ammunition, try the various guns, make careful notes, and then go somewhere else to actually buy the gun you want.
I am not familiar with gun shops in Indiana at all. I can't even steer you to a reputable gun shop in northwest Washington State, where I live. Ask a friendly cop. Ask at NRA events.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Jordan said:


> What would you recommend for me? When I test these weapons at the range, what should I be looking for? Someone said not to weigh in too heavily on accuracy because with my lack of experience that is hard for me to judge.


Well, that is very true(last sentence). What would I recommend? Probably Paratrooper and Tap-n-Rack's observations. You are on the right track in my opinion and you probably won't go wrong in any of the choices thus far. I understand your questions and what you can take from others. Unfortunately, you may not be able to shoot nor see in person the pistols you are inquiring about which creates the big dilemma. Do you prefer a striker fired weapon, DA/SA? All metal, or polymer frame?

The best option if at all possible is to rent them and shoot them, or shoot someone else's. Is the grip going to be too large? Is it comfortable in your hand, are you fairly accurate with it, but at first, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that. You just may love the Glock and be a wizard with it off the bat.

The CZ's, 92FS, SIG 226, Glock 19, S&W M&P and I'd definitely throw in the PX4 Storm into the mix. I really like my 1993 92G and my 2 PX4's, but try them all if you can. Any way you go you will be all right, but it's going to come down to what "you" like and what I suppose is superior to you, but we've already discussed that. Good luck and good shooting and tell us what you get.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I forgot something: Do your own research.
As *denner* has already pointed out in a previous post, this question has been exhaustively discussed here already. Use the "search" function to find these previous discussions. Look through existing threads, here in the "New To Handguns" area.

It is _my personal opinion_ that one should avoid Taurus guns, even if they're inexpensive and feature-laden, because Taurus has quality-control problems.
It is _my personal opinion_ that single-action (SA) semi-auto pistols are easier to learn to shoot well, than are the pistols which require a switch from a double-action (DA) trigger to a SA trigger after you've fired the first shot. (This is called "traditional double-action"-TDA.)
It is _my personal opinion_ that double-action-only (DAO) pistols, which require a long, double-action-type trigger pull for every shot, are easier to learn to shoot well than are TDA pistols, but they are more difficult to shoot well than are SA pistols.

You pays your money, and you takes your choice.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

:watching: Jordon, if you haven't already, YouTube reviews may help as well.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve made some good points, but don't count on a gun shop letting you buy a gun, leave with it, and if it doesn't check out okay, bring it back. Unless you know someone really well at that gun shop, chances are, it ain't gonna happen. Just too much of a liability issue.

And.....when it comes to cops, the vast majority shoot what is issued to them. And, lots of cops really aren't _into guns _all that much. A gun is just part of their equipment, just like the handcuffs and the pepper spray.

Before you buy, ask around and see if you have any friends, acquaintances or such, that might let you tag along some day and shoot some of their firearms. Offer to pay for some ammo. Or......check and see if you have any gun shops with an indoor range that would be worth driving to. Spend a few bucks and shoot whatever might catch your fancy. Do stick to a good brand though.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

paratrooper said:


> ...[W]hen it comes to cops, the vast majority shoot what is issued to them. And, lots of cops really aren't _into guns _all that much. A gun is just part of their equipment, just like the handcuffs and the pepper spray...


The point about asking a cop had to do with finding a reputable gun shop.
There are still lots of agencies which require the individual cop to buy his own gun. The shops which cater to cops (and other professionals) are more likely to be honest than other outlets might be.
(I thought I was pretty clear about that, in my post. If I wasn't, I apologize.)


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

denner said:


> :watching: Jordon, if you haven't already, YouTube reviews may help as well.


I watch hickock45 a lot. I watched the yankee marshal until I realized hes just a big troll/dumbass

Ive probably spent over 100 hours om youtube videos alone not to mention even more hours on gun websites and other reading.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

paratrooper said:


> Steve made some good points, but don't count on a gun shop letting you buy a gun, leave with it, and if it doesn't check out okay, bring it back. Unless you know someone really well at that gun shop, chances are, it ain't gonna happen. Just too much of a liability issue.
> 
> And.....when it comes to cops, the vast majority shoot what is issued to them. And, lots of cops really aren't _into guns _all that much. A gun is just part of their equipment, just like the handcuffs and the pepper spray.
> 
> Before you buy, ask around and see if you have any friends, acquaintances or such, that might let you tag along some day and shoot some of their firearms. Offer to pay for some ammo. Or......check and see if you have any gun shops with an indoor range that would be worth driving to. Spend a few bucks and shoot whatever might catch your fancy. Do stick to a good brand though.


There's a really big well known indoor range/gun shop here in the city. I heard its good value to rent and shoot guns, but its not the greatest place to buy them. Im in Florida on vacation until April 1st, and when I get back I will go to the range. I may wait until around may 31st to check out the huge gun show they have at the fair grounds here. Correct me if Im wrong, but I heard that is a place to get great value on guns. We have a really big show too.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> The point about asking a cop had to do with finding a reputable gun shop.
> There are still lots of agencies which require the individual cop to buy his own gun. The shops which cater to cops (and other professionals) are more likely to be honest than other outlets might be.
> (I thought I was pretty clear about that, in my post. If I wasn't, I apologize.)


No need to apologize, I won't hold it against you. :smt033


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Jordan said:


> There's a really big well known indoor range/gun shop here in the city. I heard its good value to rent and shoot guns, but its not the greatest place to buy them. Im in Florida on vacation until April 1st, and when I get back I will go to the range. I may wait until around may 31st to check out the huge gun show they have at the fair grounds here. Correct me if Im wrong, but I heard that is a place to get great value on guns. We have a really big show too.


Gun shows used to be a good place to get good deals. But, like so many other things that have changed over the years, it's kind of a crap shoot these days. I'm not saying that you can't find a good deal, it's just that it's not as common place as it used to be.

But......a gun show will provide you ample opportunity to look at and hold a whole lot of different firearms. Pay close attention to prices, as they will most likely vary to some degree.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

denner said:


> :watching: Jordon, if you haven't already, YouTube reviews may help as well.
> 
> CZ 75 - YouTube
> 
> Beretta 92FS vs Glock - YouTube


Thank you, I have watched both those videos several times. I have watched almost all of hickock45s pistol videos, instructional videos, and other ones. Is he a reputable guy to take seriously? He seems like it to me at least. Yankee Marshall is a big jackass and gives a bad name to gun owners in my opinion.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Jordan said:


> Title says it all. I have a very limited experience with guns. My dad owned a lot of guns when I was a kid, and he taught me basic gun safety. It has been a long time since I have fired a gun. Most my experience comes from shooting Ruger 10-22s, and 22 pistols. I cant remember if I have shot any other caliber besides 22 LR. The last year I have done a ton of research on guns, but that only helps so much. I still need to go down to the range and try out as many as I can, and I need to see what fits my hand and what I am most accurate with.


I began learning how to handle firearms when I was only 9 years old. Fortunately my Marine, 'Uncles', the men who first began training me, taught me to pick up a gun - any gun - acclimate myself to the piece, and use it effectively.

Back in those days there were ten basic firearm safety/handling rules; but my Marine instructors had only two paramount techniques they used to train me: (1) If I made a handling or a safety mistake with a firearm, the gun was taken out of my hands; and I had to sit on the bench while everyone else continued to shoot. (2) If I missed more than two or three shots in a row the firearm was, once again, taken out of my hands; and I had to put in some more time on that damned bench!

Let me tell you: A half hour sitting on a bench watching everybody else have fun is an eternity to a young nine or ten year old boy! During my time on that bench I swore to myself that I wouldn't make anymore mistakes with a gun; and, sure enough, it wasn't too long before me and any gun I was handed, 'became one'. By twelve years of age, I (almost) never missed anything I pointed a muzzle at.

Consequently, I remain awestruck by all of this internet advice I constantly read about, '_finding a gun that fits your hand_'; as well as the remarks about one gun being more, '_comfortable_' than another. (What, the Hell, does that mean?) Personally, I find Glock pistols to be among the most awkward and ungainly pistols that I have ever handled in more than 60 years of shooting; yet, some of the very best pistol shooting I've ever done I did with three Glock pistols: Two G-21's, and one G-19.

(A few years ago I took a standing ovation from an audience of local police officers as I walked off the firing line with a warm G-21 on my side; and, yeah, I had just finished, 'burning up the target line' with a pistol whose innate balance and tendency to point naturally I consider to be atrocious. Frankly, I'll always be grateful to my first Marine Corps instructors for teaching me how to relate to and handle guns - All guns!)



Jordan said:


> That being said, I wanted to come here first to narrow down what I will be shooting at the range. *I don't have all the money in the world to piss away shooting .357 or .45acp at the range*. This wont really effect which gun I choose, however. Anything under 1000$ is desirable. But, there is a gun that completely separates itself from the others and costs 1200$, then I will be spending 1200$. &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


Ahh, come on, Jordan! While I used to reload all of my own ammunition; and I will admit that, for more than two decades, it was reloading that was my favorite hobby and real, 'first love', still, at the same time you can find plenty of cheap ammo out there IF you look for it. For instance Wal-Mart (when they have ammo) is an affordable place to buy, 'range quality' ammunition.

My considered opinion of 45 ACP is that, 'the gods of war' smiled on the winning side when JMB developed this cartridge, and presented his, 'little beauty' to the world-at-large. I love the 45 Auto pistol/subgun cartridge! I, also, consider 45 ACP to be one of the three easiest calibers to use in order to learn how to shoot 'n handle a centerfire pistol:

In my experience it's 45 ACP, 38 Special/357 Magnum, and 9 x 19mm (9mm is actually a, 'chambering' and NOT a, 'caliber'.) that are the easiest cartridges to learn pistol shooting with. What is more, if an (admittedly) shrewd old pistol instructor like me can teach his naturally peaceable and very gentle wife how to handle, 'full house' 357 Magnum rounds better than most men, then, there's nothing to be afraid of about getting involved with this cartridge, either.

(Know what she used to say as I quietly slipped more and more 357 Magnum cartridges into her speedloaders while I was training her? 'That last speedloader seemed to have more, 'kick' to it.' My usual reply? 'Do you really think so?' 'Look at your target; they're, all there!' Now how well do you think the woman would have been shooting if she'd been exposed to the usual internet gun forum, 'wisdom' &#8230;&#8230;&#8230; hmmm?)



Jordan said:


> I WILL NOT BE USING THE GUN AS A CCW. I repeat, I WILL NOT BE USING THE GUN AS A CCW. It will stay in my car secured but accessible, on the nightstand, or maybe even open carry if I go fishing or I am camping. That's it. It will be used for self defense, a SHTF scenario, or to go to the range and enjoy it. I plan on buying more guns in the future, but for now this is what it will be used for.


Of course you realize that the above statement is self-contradictory - Right!



Jordan said:


> What I am looking for:
> A full sized 9mm pistol high (sic) (standard) capacity (14+ rounds). I think that's pretty self explanatory. It is a cheap round to learn on, the recoil is good for newbs, and I can afford to stock pile it. I don't want to buy a 686 and get in a bad habit of flinching or something that I have read about. If I had money to buy a 10-22 or a 22 revolver to learn on I would, but unfortunately I don't have that luxury. I want a gun for self defense asap to save me or my old lady, imo that throws the 22 out the window for now (yes I know all guns are deadly even 22lr).


There is NO CHEAP WAY TO LEARN how to become competent with a centerfire pistol. There's only the right way, and the wrong way. If you want to shorten the learning curve then you're going to need to spend time and do business with someone like, either, me or my uncles. ANY of the calibers/chamberings I've mentioned above would be the right way to go.



Jordan said:


> Just from reading this is what I've narrowed my choices down to:
> 
> Glock 17/19 - pretty much an obligatory mention, reliable, easy to clean and take apart for newbs, easy to use, you shoot it goes bang, no safety to fumble with in the dark. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I don't want to look like every other newb or Glock tard and buy a Glock just because.


For whatever insight it might offer: Screw Glocks! I've never started a new pistol shooter out on a Glock; and it's highly unlikely that I ever will. 'Why' isn't germane to this reply. Suffice it to say that this older pistol instructor (Who's seen it all!) recommends that you stay away from this more difficult-to-use, 'bare bones' combat pistol. (I know I'm violating the, 'Glockeroo creed'; but, as I said: Screw Glocks; they're not the right pistol to learn on.)



Jordan said:


> Browning Hi-Power - Seems like a great gun, its a steel frame I believe so it can help with recoil, the trigger is single action (idk why but this appeals to me to squeeze of shots for self defense), and I've just heard a lot of good stuff about it from people who appear to be reputable online. Idk why but I think I would enjoy it. I assume there's a reason its been around so long.


I have always been fond of the Browning P-35; and I've owned many of them. My (Texas) sister-in-law even carries one for self-defense. Whether a pistol's frame is steel, alloy, or polymer has less to do with, either, perceived or actual recoil than some of the other design characteristics of the pistol; e.g.: the height of the bore axis, the muzzle's weight, the length of the barrel, whether or not the muzzle is ported, or the frame's grip angle.



Jordan said:


> CZ 75b or CZ75 spo1- seems like a great gun, I love the way it looks, recoil seems minimal, its steel (idk why but that seems better than polymer), oh and there's an easy conversion kit to change it to 22lr so I could do that and learn on 22, but I would still have a 9mm for self defense.


No ifs, no ands, no buts: If I were to buy another pistol, it would be the CZ 75B, SP-101, 'Shadow'.



Jordan said:


> Berretta 92fs/M9- again kind of an obligatory mention, some hate it others love it, parts are cheap and accessible.
> 
> Sig p226- seems like a great gun the seals carry it, but it seems over priced. However, if i shoot it and fall in love (it fits my hand good, and I'm accurate) I'm willing to pay good money. This goes for any other gun.


Pretty much my own opinions, too.



Jordan said:


> I think that's about it. The ones I'm most strongly considering are the Glocks, CZ75B, or the Hi-Power. What do you shoot well? What fits you good? What's the best value? What's the best for a newb? What's most appropriate for me out of what I listed. IF you want to list something else that's fine &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;
> 
> Thanks guys for your help, feel free to correct anything I got wrong. I am a newb. I realize there is no advice you guys can give me that will benefit me more than going to the range, but I want to take every measure to make an informed decision. You're opinions on the guns I listed would be great thanks so much.


Other than to say that, 'range time' is NOT an acceptable substitute for competent instruction I believe I've done everything as you requested.

By the way: Thanks for giving me an opportunity to get my mind off the loss of the very last of our world-class Pit Bulldogs this morning. Now more than three decades ago, I originally acquired this bloodline from Andre Giroux in Montreal, Quebec. Until this morning I've owned and trained some of the very best guard and attack canines on Planet Earth; but, all of this bulldog breeding and guard dog training finally came to an end today. Yes, it wasn't entirely unexpected; I just didn't think that we'd lose her today. Now I'm presently too old, myself, to ever do anything like this again; so I've got some, 'adjusting' to do.

The house feels, 'empty'; and I can't remember when I've ever felt quite this insecure. I guess it takes more than a gun to truly make a home feel safe. Her name was, 'Sarah Rose' (Rosie). My wife tells me that she worshipped the ground I walked on. I don't know; but I do realize that, needs be, she would have gladly sacrificed herself for either of us. In fact it was two of her predecessors who saved us from a serious home invasion back in 1990.

As a yearling: http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a422/69204Me/1030092053_zpsf412ccf7.jpg

In her prime: http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a422/69204Me/RosiesReady_zps917f872a.jpg

In later life: http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a422/69204Me/0220032138a_zpse62c4e04.jpg

Andre Giroux - Game Dog History | Gamedog Magazines & Articles about the American Pitbull Terrier

R.I.P. Sarah Rose!


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## Eurobiker (Mar 23, 2014)

The CZ 75B has been suggested and it is an excellent gun. I have been extremely happy with a CZ 75 clone; a Canik S-120, a full size stainless steel 9mm, 17 rounds. Purchased from Buds Gunshop via Gunbroker, $322 plus shipping, FFL fees. All I can say is for a new buyer, you will not be disappointed. Several reviews and YouTube demos are available, check it out.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Jordan said:


> Thank you, I have watched both those videos several times. I have watched almost all of hickock45s pistol videos, instructional videos, and other ones. Is he a reputable guy to take seriously? He seems like it to me at least. Yankee Marshall is a big jackass and gives a bad name to gun owners in my opinion.


Yes hickock45 is a reputable guy to take seriously in my opinion, however, he's definitely a Glock guy, and like anything else you must sift and analyze and give your own credibility to what you research(i.e. separate the wheat from the chaff). He has a beef with all DA/SA pistols, I happen to prefer, only own, carry and mainly shoot DA/SA pistols.

I'm proficient due to shooting them for many years. No doubt I'm a Beretta guy, but there's Glock guys, Sig guys, CZ guys and so on.....You've definitely done you're homework on high quality pistols, no doubt. The firearms you've mentioned and which have been discussed are all excellent firearms. Just time to buy one and I don't believe you will make a mistake either way, however, without owning them or shooting them extensively you won't know what your cup of tea is.

I've never owned or shot a CZ, never shot a Sig, never shot an H&K and I may be missing something. However, owning Beretta's, I feel I don't need to. If I were you, I'd strongly consider the PX4 Storm full size or compact w/ the rotating barrel. The compact shoots as well as the fullsize and I'm very impressed, but this is only my subjective opinion. If you want an all metal pistol, of course the 92fs or 92A1. But Beretta's are the only ones I've had extensive experience with. So I know you won't go wrong if you like them. I do agree with you on YM, something's wrong with that dude, but I do have to give him some credit for liking the Storms'.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Eurobiker said:


> The CZ 75B has been suggested and it is an excellent gun. I have been extremely happy with a CZ 75 clone; a Canik S-120, a full size stainless steel 9mm, 17 rounds. Purchased from Buds Gunshop via Gunbroker, $322 plus shipping, FFL fees. All I can say is for a new buyer, you will not be disappointed. Several reviews and YouTube demos are available, check it out.


I like the matte SS finish much better than the polished version. Nice looking gun. :smt023


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Wow, that's a deal!


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

paratrooper, I own both of those pistols. The Sig P226 is a great go-to-war gun, though I think overpriced. The double-action / single-action trigger requires extra training, especially for a new shooter. (A single-action-only model is available, but costs around $1000.) As for the Beretta 92, I regret that our military has to tolerate it. Especially in life or death situations. The double-action trigger is far too long. And the slide-mounted safety is far too inconvenient. Both require extra training. Dry fire training is possible, but the owner's manual for the Beretta says dry fire is forbidden, without snap caps. Snap caps cost $3 each and must be replaced often.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

northstar19 said:


> paratrooper, I own both of those pistols. The Sig P226 is a great go-to-war gun, though I think overpriced. The double-action / single-action trigger requires extra training, especially for a new shooter. As for the Beretta 92, I regret that our military has to tolerate it. Especially in life or death situations. The double-action trigger is far too long. And the slide-mounted safety is far too inconvenient. Both require extra training. Dry fire training is possible, but the owner's manual for the Beretta says dry fire is forbidden, without snap caps. Snap caps cost $3 each and must be replaced often.


I do very well with the stock DA on the 92, I have the G model so I don't have to worry about the frame mounted safety. You can dry fire the 92 series until the cows come home w/ no ill effect, but most if not all manufacturers recommend the use of snap caps for dry firing practice and for good reason. Do you own one and have you ever had any ill effect dry firing w/ no snap caps? I've had mine since 1993 and a lot of dry firing along the way, not necessarily heavy dry fire practice , I use snap caps for that.

Still has the same 21 year old firing pin, so that should tell you something. The 92 is much more durable than you are giving credit for, I own one and should know. There is good reason why the 92/M9 has been the official sidearm for the US military since 1985. Beat out all the rest and if the US armed forces was so dissatisfied why do they keep awarding Beretta new contracts for the M9?


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

Jordan, both the CZ 75 and the Glock are among the best handguns in the world, and among the best bargains, too. You can have either for around $500. Compare that to Sig, HK, Kimber, etc., for twice the price. The standard CZ 75 has the double-action / single-action trigger, however, and will require extra training--if you ever get used to it. The CZ company does make a single-action-only version of the 75, though, and I recommend it highly, especially for a new shooter. You are already aware of the Glock 17 and 19. The Glock trigger is always easy and always consistent. Try the generation 4 models. The grip is more slender than before, but can be modified to fit any hand. Good luck!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

northstar19 said:


> ...Snap caps cost $3 each and must be replaced often.


...Not if you buy the all-aluminum ones.
Look at the A-Zoom snap caps. They're just about permanent.
Click on: A-Zoom Snap Caps, no other snap caps are more precise or rugged


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

denner, our experiences has been very different. For instance, the Glock is very comfortable to me. You have to overcome its rough, crude ergonomics to shoot it well. But to me, it's always been as smooth as silk. That's normal, I think. Therefore, I say, let the OP try them all and make up his own mind.


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## northstar19 (Aug 11, 2013)

I'll check it out, Steve. Thanks!


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

northstar19 said:


> denner, our experiences has been very different. For instance, the Glock is very comfortable to me. You have to overcome its rough, crude ergonomics to shoot it well. But to me, it's always been as smooth as silk. That's normal, I think. Therefore, I say, let the OP try them all and make up his own mind.


I agree NS, I didn't mention anything about the Glock being uncomfortable, it's fine for me as well. Just that my 21 year old 92G is an excellent firearm and shoots today as well as when I first purchased it. I can shoot it very well in both DA and SA, but than again I've had it a while, and would I recommend a 92 series pistol from my experience, oh yes.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

+1 to A-Zoom snap caps. 

I have a set for 9mm, .38/357 and .308. Great training aids that are built to last.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

Glock Doctor said:


> I began learning how to handle firearms when I was only 9 years old. Fortunately my Marine, 'Uncles', the men who first began training me, taught me to pick up a gun - any gun - acclimate myself to the piece, and use it effectively.
> 
> Back in those days there were ten basic firearm safety/handling rules; but my Marine instructors had only two paramount techniques they used to train me: (1) If I made a handling or a safety mistake with a firearm, the gun was taken out of my hands; and I had to sit on the bench while everyone else continued to shoot. (2) If I missed more than two or three shots in a row the firearm was, once again, taken out of my hands; and I had to put in some more time on that damned bench!
> 
> ...


Thanks man everyone's opinion is much appreciated. I am A VERY heavy handed man and I just feel that 9mm is most appropriate for me to learn on. I'm sorry for the loss of your dog. I rescued a beautiful huge pitt this last summer and found him a seemingly good home. When my Papa put down our 13 year old lab I cried everyday for 4 days. It sucks. My condolences.

I do not understand how my sentence where I say I will not be using the weapon to CCW. Feel free to point it out as like I have stated I am very very green. In Indiana the law is very specific on how you can carry a gun in your car WITHOUT a CCW license. It has to be in a case, unloaded, magazine removed.

I dont want to get into a political debate, but I am a left winged person for most economic issues. This last month I have found a lot of internet material that scares me about the direction this country is headed in, and I realized if they take our guns we will have no chance to fight for our freedoms. It sounds funny like this would never happen, but if you told the average German citizen Hitler would fry 10 million people in an oven they would've laughed too. I never understood pro-guns people insistence to own AR-15s and assault weapons (i now realize 95 percent of anti-ar15 people like morgan just do this because they think the gun looks scary as they have stated they wouldnt take away m14 style rifles) until I watched a video of this Jewish guy Ben Shapiro debating Piers Morgan (i hate him). It made me realize the second amendment is about a lot more than hunting/self defense; it is about preventing a possible tyrannical takeover of our government. It sounds silly, but this made me really regret my negative views of some pro-gun people. It inspired me to be a gun owner. Its sad I had already forgotten what the 2nd amendment was for, as indicated in the federalist papers.

This may make me seem paranoid or stupid, but this is my reasoning behind buying a firearm. I haven't presented a ton of evidence as to why I believe this, because I would be here all day. I don't feel it necessary *to be in a hurry* to keep my gun on me at all times in public. I am regularly in very very bad parts of Indianapolis with no trouble. Someday I WILL do this, but right now that is not my PRIMARY reason for gun ownership. It is to protect my home, old lady, vehicle, or some unforeseen lawless scenario. In all honesty the gun will most likely stay in my house 80 percent of the time for the time being. This post wasnt necessarily directed at you, obviously some parts are, but I thought I would let people know what prompted my interest in guns :smt1099


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

northstar19 said:


> Jordan, both the CZ 75 and the Glock are among the best handguns in the world, and among the best bargains, too. You can have either for around $500. Compare that to Sig, HK, Kimber, etc., for twice the price. The standard CZ 75 has the double-action / single-action trigger, however, and will require extra training--if you ever get used to it. The CZ company does make a single-action-only version of the 75, though, and I recommend it highly, especially for a new shooter. You are already aware of the Glock 17 and 19. The Glock trigger is always easy and always consistent. Try the generation 4 models. The grip is more slender than before, but can be modified to fit any hand. Good luck!


Thanks boss, without doing any shooting, I am leaning most strongly towards the CZ75. I have also strongly considered the single action only variant. I don't have any logical reasoning, but I just think it would be easier for me to learn on. Plus I can buy a 22lr conversion kit to make for cheaper training. I will let you guys all know what I decide on once I get back home and go to the range. I will then probably wait and bring my Dad to the gunshow and buy one there used.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

northstar19 said:


> paratrooper, I own both of those pistols. The Sig P226 is a great go-to-war gun, though I think overpriced. The double-action / single-action trigger requires extra training, especially for a new shooter. (A single-action-only model is available, but costs around $1000.) As for the Beretta 92, I regret that our military has to tolerate it. Especially in life or death situations. The double-action trigger is far too long. And the slide-mounted safety is far too inconvenient. Both require extra training. Dry fire training is possible, but the owner's manual for the Beretta says dry fire is forbidden, without snap caps. Snap caps cost $3 each and must be replaced often.


I carried one for many years as a police officer. My job too, was life or death. I have no complaints.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

^ Agreed... several thousand rounds through mine on the range, went through a Police Academy (took Top Gun award) and several outdoor tactical classes (sand & dirt) without an issue with mine. I'll never part with it. Would have happily carried one while in the Marines... but alas, was never issued one.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Jordan said:


> Thanks boss, without doing any shooting, I am leaning most strongly towards the CZ75. I have also strongly considered the single action only variant. I don't have any logical reasoning, but I just think it would be easier for me to learn on. Plus I can buy a 22lr conversion kit to make for cheaper training. I will let you guys all know what I decide on once I get back home and go to the range. I will then probably wait and bring my Dad to the gunshow and buy one there used.


The CZ 75 is a fine gun and an excellent feeling one. If you like that gun, give some serious consideration to the M&P 9. It is a DAO design (technically a true SAO but I'll avoid that for the moment) striker fired pistol and has superb ergonomics and handling characteristics. Try the one with the 4.25" barrel and see how you like it.

Lots of fine choices out there and you have mentioned and been handed some good ones. Hard to dismiss many of them but it really comes down to which one turns out to be the best for your particular wants, needs, and requirements. Do as has been suggested and try to shoot as many of your candidate choices as you can. Buy quality because after all, what price is your life and the lives of those you love? And train with it often.

Keep us informed of your progress. We do like to know what people who ask for our opinions wind up with in the end.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

Silly Newb thinks the first will be his last. There are so many good ones. Enjoy pow pow pow.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

rustygun said:


> Silly Newb thinks the first will be his last. There are so many good ones. Enjoy pow pow pow.


I've mentioned at least 3-5 times that I plan on buying more guns ha.


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

SouthernBoy said:


> The CZ 75 is a fine gun and an excellent feeling one. If you like that gun, give some serious consideration to the M&P 9. It is a DAO design (technically a true SAO but I'll avoid that for the moment) striker fired pistol and has superb ergonomics and handling characteristics. Try the one with the 4.25" barrel and see how you like it.
> 
> Lots of fine choices out there and you have mentioned and been handed some good ones. Hard to dismiss many of them but it really comes down to which one turns out to be the best for your particular wants, needs, and requirements. Do as has been suggested and try to shoot as many of your candidate choices as you can. Buy quality because after all, what price is your life and the lives of those you love? And train with it often.
> 
> Keep us informed of your progress. We do like to know what people who ask for our opinions wind up with in the end.


I will definitely let you all know brother! I'm looking forwards to coming on here and telling you all my choice after I leave the range! I will feel like a school girl who just lost her virginity and is so giddy she has to tell all her friends haha. I'm in Florida on an island until April 1st, so hopefully by April 14th I will have gone to the range and made a decision on what I want. Cant say it enough, thanks yall.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Jordan said:


> Thanks man everyone's opinion is much appreciated. I am A VERY heavy handed man and I just feel that 9mm is most appropriate for me to learn on.


Allow me to describe how I, myself, and a lot of the people I usually shoot with identify the differences between 9 x 19mm, and 45 ACP recoil. (Doesn't matter whether or not it's actual, or individually perceived recoil.)

9mm recoil is quick, fast, and comparatively light. It has what might be called, 'a real snap' to it. 9mm is widely considered to be one of the three easiest-to-manage centerfire pistol calibers to learn on. Because I am extremely well conditioned to 45 ACP recoil (and shoot 45 ACP better than many of my IDPA buddies are able to handle their, 'minor caliber' 9mm pistols) I find 9mm to be, almost, ridiculously easy-to-handle; but, and there's no explaining this, my personal level of, 'instinctive insecurity' goes way up whenever I'm carrying only a 9mm pistol. (How do I compensate for this? I carry more ammo, and think in terms of double and triple-tapping a target.)

45 ACP recoil is slow, heavy, and dull. It occurs over a longer period of time than 9mm recoil; and is, consequently, easy-to-manage. By way of comparison 40 S&W recoil has a sharp heavy snap to it that does, indeed, require me to put more conscious effort into my pistol shooting.

To my mind (and personal reflexes) 40 caliber pistol ammo has always been, 'a solution looking for a problem to solve'. The only thing I get out of shooting 40 caliber is a faster, 'snap' than 9mm; and a heavier recoil impulse than 45 ACP. Sometimes I wonder to myself just how many gunmen have, 'missed the mark' because they were using more difficult-to-control 40 caliber ammo when, in fact, they'd have been much better off with either 9 x 19mm, or 45 ACP ammo in their (service) pistols?

You may be entirely right that 9mm is the better of the two cartridges for you to learn with; or, in the alternative, because you are (as you say) a, 'heavy handed' person you might be much better off using 45 ACP. One thing's for certain: If you buy your, 'range ammo' at Wal-Mart (or someplace else, but, at similar low prices as I often do) cost is not going to be a significant factor. Anyway I use both cartridges, and frequently switch back and forth between them. (On my, 'revolver days' 357 Magnum, too.)



Jordan said:


> I'm sorry for the loss of your dog. I rescued a beautiful huge Pitbull this last summer and found him a seemingly good home. When my Papa put down our 13 year old lab I cried everyday for 4 days. It sucks. My condolences.


Thanks, man!



Jordan said:


> I do not understand how my sentence where I say I will not be using the weapon to CCW. Feel free to point it out as like I have stated I am very green. In Indiana the law is very specific on how you can carry a gun in your car WITHOUT a CCW license. It has to be in a case, unloaded, magazine removed.


No, you're not, 'green'. You write well enough, and come across as someone with a highly analytical mind and a lot of common sense. Taking all of your remarks in context it is apparent to me that a growing need for increased self-defense is nagging away at you. (I think this comes with both increasing age, and the evening news!) Neither do I consider it particularly rational for anyone to buy a, more or less, typical handgun and simultaneously preclude himself from being able to carry it, expediently.



Jordan said:


> I don't want to get into a political debate, but I am a left-winged person for most economic issues. This last month I have found a lot of internet material that scares me about the direction this country is headed in, and I realized if they take our guns we will have no chance to fight for our freedoms.
> 
> It sounds funny like this would never happen, but if you told the average German citizen Hitler would fry 10 million people in an oven they would've laughed too.
> 
> I never understood pro-guns people insistence to own AR-15s and assault weapons. (I now realize 95 percent of anti-AR15 people like Piers Morgan just do this because they think the gun looks scary as they have stated they wouldn't take away M14 style rifles.) &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


You're correct! I'm an older man; and the years have taught me that men are, indeed, all of the unseemly things that sacred scripture condemns mankind for. As a species **** Sapiens have proven themselves to be incapable of open, honest, and equitable self-government.

The past 5,000 years of recorded history do NOT work for mankind; they work against us, instead. (Our founding fathers - I am certain - fully realized this when they attempted to give America a form of government that would be resistant to the many negative impulses generated by the greater human psyche!) Unfortunately this outstanding and uniquely American experiment in republican government has now failed; and Americans are presently left to cope with all of the social detritus and intellectual excrement of a failed political enterprise.

Will mankind as a whole, now, make the right political decisions? Doesn't look like it! The historical track record is against humanity; and the prerequisite (and necessary) universal morality is NOT there. Today we're, all, faced with the consequences of our: numerous, repeated, (and ongoing) socio-political failures.



Jordan said:


> &#8230;&#8230;&#8230; This may make me seem paranoid or stupid, but this is my reasoning behind buying a firearm. I haven't presented a ton of evidence as to why I believe this, because I would be here all day. I don't feel it necessary to be in a hurry to keep my gun on me at all times in public. I am regularly in very bad parts of Indianapolis with no trouble.
> 
> Someday I WILL do this, but right now that is not my PRIMARY reason for gun ownership. It is to protect my home, old lady, vehicle, or some unforeseen lawless scenario. In all honesty the gun will most likely stay in my house 80 percent of the time for the time being. This post wasn't necessarily directed at you, obviously some parts are, but I thought I would let people know what prompted my interest in guns.


Well, I don't think that buying a gun should be a political statement. I believe that Judeo-Christian ethics should be political statements. I believe that moral personal behaviors are necessary socio-political statements. In the final analysis we, all, learn from one another; and, unfortunately, the very best of men have often had set outstanding personal examples for their fellows at great personal expense to themselves.

If I may wax biblical for a moment, it all comes back to this: '_Owe no man anything, except to love one another; for, he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled The Law._' (Romans 13:8) Anyone who thinks that ethical public behavior is an easy thing to do is (historically) sadly mistaken. (Instead it's an easy thing to fake!)  The necessary psychic and spiritual impetus toward this sort of outstanding public behavior has been missing from all of mankind for, at least, the past 100 years; AND, things aren't getting any better!


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

rustygun said:


> Silly Newb thinks the first will be his last. There are so many good ones. Enjoy pow pow pow.


+1000

I was trying to find the one gun last year. Since then I've bought 6 pistols, 2 shotguns and 3 rifles. No new guns this year. I can quit any time I want to.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

When it comes to firearms and collecting them, it's easy to quit, if you have the right mindset.

I know this for fact, cause I've quit several times. :smt083


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## Jordan (Mar 21, 2014)

Glock Doctor said:


> 9mm recoil is quick, fast, and comparatively light. It has what might be called, 'a real snap' to it. 9mm is widely considered to be one of the three easiest-to-manage centerfire pistol calibers to learn on. Because I am extremely well conditioned to 45 ACP recoil (and shoot 45 ACP better than many of my IDPA buddies are able to handle their, 'minor caliber' 9mm pistols) I find 9mm to be, almost, ridiculously easy-to-handle; but, and there's no explaining this, my personal level of, 'instinctive insecurity' goes way up whenever I'm carrying only a 9mm pistol. (How do I compensate for this? I carry more ammo, and think in terms of double and triple-tapping a target.)
> 
> 45 ACP recoil is slow, heavy, and dull. It occurs over a longer period of time than 9mm recoil; and is, consequently, easy-to-manage. By way of comparison 40 S&W recoil has a sharp heavy snap to it that does, indeed, require me to put more conscious effort into my pistol shooting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this post. It has me convinced to at least try a 45acp chambered gun at the range which is something I wasn't previously considering. Posts like this are exactly why I came here BEFORE going to the range.

Also, I completely understand how I contradicted myself. It wasnt so much as my sentence structure was literally contradicting as it was I was being philosophically inconsistent .

Trying to be "politically correct" is destroying the family value system of America. I am NOT a homophobe. I have even lived with gay people (didnt know the guy was gay for the first 6 months I knew him so it didnt bother me and it was only for a few weeks). There is no reason why we have to allow our children to be brainwashed that being gay is just as normal as being straight. Not only that, but that gays are now considered brave and receive constant media recognition as basically these freedom fighters and courageous individual for being obnoxious and forcing us to listen to the homosexual agenda. If you are gay cool, no need to brag about it on tv. Being who you are in America does not make you brave. Wearing a yamacha in America is not brave (there are as many attacks on jews today as homosexuals) it is being who you are. I find it scary that this agenda is seemingly being pushed down ours and our childrens throats. If you told the men on Omaha beach that in 70 years a homosexual on tv would recieve more individual attention for being brave than the Seal team that killed Osama Bin Laden they would laugh. In our society, presenting judeo-christian ethics as political statements is considered politically incorrect and its tearing us apart. Why people are so set out to destroy the family unit of this world as we know it is beyond me, but it is very frightening. I just dont know where this ends.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

All the pistols you mentioned are great. I recommend shooting all of them and pick the one you shoot best with. I have had all but the CZ, but it feels really good in my hand. I carry the Glock 19 Gen 4 and love it. I also have the G17 Gen 4. Can't go wrong with Glock. Safe, reliable, accurate, and they are the best priced of the great pistols.


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

In my experience gun shows are not a great place for good prices on handguns. Maybe once upon a time, but no longer.


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## Kennydale (Jun 10, 2013)

My Advice on a first time gun KEEP IT SIMPLE If it's for a home/vehicle defense you might want a mid to full sized firearm. If it's for Conceal Carry a compact/sub compact or a snub revolver would do fine. Manufacturers like Ruger, Smith & Wesson , Springfield Armory & Glock make simple reliable firearms for around $400-600.


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## Schroedinger (Mar 7, 2014)

I recently went through the same process as you, with the same basic requirements. All the options you list are good; my advice is don't stress too hard over the tiny details, get the gun that feels best to you and start shooting. I went with a CZ-75B, and I love it. The key is to get something you can shoot a lot - 9mm ammo is a good idea. The more you shoot, the more you will understand your own desires/preferences.


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