# Minature Springy 1911 9mm



## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Anybody actually shot one of these yet? Looks intriguing. Seems a little pricey at $1200 plus! I love the 1911 platform and big bores but it would be cheap to shoot the 9mm. I've not yet seen one in the gunshops or handled one. Comments?


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## extremist (Jan 14, 2007)

I just bought my 2nd one :mrgreen: 

I personally love them. I had some functioning problems with mine, it doesn't like +P or Gold Dot ammo. Some people can get standard Gold Dot to work. I'm still finding what ammo it likes best.

Pretty much all FMJ functions flawlessly. Accurate, small, just about the perfect carry 1911.

I would highly recommend you getting one.

I bought my first used for $850, my second used for $900 (it came with 5 mags). Neither had more than a couple of hundred rounds through them.

James


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Hey, thanks for the info. The only 9mm I own now is my HK P7M8 (I like your avatar) so I don't really need another 9MM. But of course, need has always had very little to do with my pistol purchases. It (the EMP) looks like it would really be a neat gun. I guess I'll have to break down and go to the city to find one to handle. Where in Texas are you? :smt033


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Hey Charlie go to a fair size gun show and see if you can't pick one up for about $925 to $950 NITB. That's what they were going for about two months ago down my way. Good luck.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

extremist said:


> I personally love them. I had some functioning problems with mine, it doesn't like +P or Gold Dot ammo. Some people can get standard Gold Dot to work. I'm still finding what ammo it likes best.
> 
> Pretty much all FMJ functions flawlessly. Accurate, small, just about the perfect carry 1911.
> 
> ...


Just curious why you recommend anyone buy a $900 pistol that apparently doesn't function with anything but anemic 9mm ball. Spending $900 on a defensive pistol that doesn't work with good defensive ammo seems rather...counterproductive. How can it be "the perfect carry 1911" if it doesn't work with the ammo (modern JHP) that is universally recommended as defense ammo in 9mm? Have you found any modern JHPs that work in it?

I have handled (but not fired) one of these. It has a very nice feel in the hand, if you have small hands that are accustomed to the 1911 design (I do). It's small and flat and would be easy to carry. But if it doesn't work reliably, it's just an expensive doorstop - and a waste of money that could be spent on a gun that actually works as intended.


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## Snowman (Jan 2, 2007)

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> Just curious why you recommend anyone buy a $900 pistol that apparently doesn't function with anything but anemic 9mm ball. Spending $900 on a defensive pistol that doesn't work with good defensive ammo seems rather...counterproductive. How can it be "the perfect carry 1911" if it doesn't work with the ammo (modern JHP) that is universally recommended as defense ammo in 9mm? Have you found any modern JHPs that work in it?
> 
> I have handled (but not fired) one of these. It has a very nice feel in the hand, if you have small hands that are accustomed to the 1911 design (I do). It's small and flat and would be easy to carry. But if it doesn't work reliably, it's just an expensive doorstop - and a waste of money that could be spent on a gun that actually works as intended.


I was thinking the same thing.


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## extremist (Jan 14, 2007)

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> Just curious why you recommend anyone buy a $900 pistol that apparently doesn't function with anything but anemic 9mm ball. Spending $900 on a defensive pistol that doesn't work with good defensive ammo seems rather...counterproductive. How can it be "the perfect carry 1911" if it doesn't work with the ammo (modern JHP) that is universally recommended as defense ammo in 9mm? Have you found any modern JHPs that work in it?
> 
> I have handled (but not fired) one of these. It has a very nice feel in the hand, if you have small hands that are accustomed to the 1911 design (I do). It's small and flat and would be easy to carry. But if it doesn't work reliably, it's just an expensive doorstop - and a waste of money that could be spent on a gun that actually works as intended.


It works marvelously with:

- 147gr "Black Talon" style Fiocchi
- 124gr Remington Yellow/Green Box
- 124gr Federal Hydrashok
- 147gr Federal Classic Hollow Point

- I'm going to test some 147gr Winchester Ranger, 124gr Federal Nyclad HP.

Certainly nothing wrong with any of those loads, and I wouldn't call them anemic.

Exactly how much extra velocity is +P ammo going to give you out of a 3" barrel? Is the blast and extra recoil worth it? I think not.

Shot placement is certainly more important, and at 21', my two EMPs are exceedingly accurate and easy to shoot.

A good article: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/demystplusp_0306-7/index.html

Regards,
James


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

extremist said:


> It works marvelously with:
> 
> - 147gr "Black Talon" style Fiocchi
> - 124gr Remington Yellow/Green Box
> ...


Okay. Your first post wasn't very clear, and implied to me (and at least one other member) that the gun only worked with FMJ, which I indeed consider anemic. The rounds you mention here are certainly acceptable for defense.



> Exactly how much extra velocity is +P ammo going to give you out of a 3" barrel? Is the blast and extra recoil worth it? I think not.


I don't know how much extra velocity you'd get. Do you? If not, how do you know if the "extra blast and recoil" is worth it? Since you have the gun, maybe you could chronograph some +P and some standard 9mm and post the results.

In my Glock 26, I cannot tell the difference between +P and standard 9mm ammo, in terms of recoil and muzzle flip, and my split times are within a few hundredths of a second of each other. Maybe it is different in the EMP, however.



> Shot placement is certainly more important, and at 21', my two EMPs are exceedingly accurate and easy to shoot.


No argument there. I'd love for the EMP to work well, since the 1911 is the easiest design to shoot fast and well. (Not that I'd give up my Glocks for any 1911 at this point.)



> A good article: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/demystplusp_0306-7/index.html


I glanced at the article, but it didn't seem to have any graphs or velocity comparisons between +P and standard 9mm ammo. Good info for someone who doesn't know what +P means - like most gun rag articles, it's written for new shooters.


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## extremist (Jan 14, 2007)

*The Minus of +P by Charles E. Petty - American Handgunner Jan/Feb 98*

Finally found the article I remembered reading a while back. Unfortunately, it's not online, so I'll have to summarize:

Risk vs Benefit of +P Loads
.45ACP (185gr vs 185gr +P)
9mm (124gr vs 124gr +P)
.38 Special (110gr vs 110gr +P)

Ammo----------Velocity Increase (%)-----Recoil Increase (%)
.45ACP----------------7.4---------------------11.7
9mm------------------5.9----------------------7.4
.38 Special-----------18.9---------------------30.8

Especially in a light gun, +P is not a good trade off.

He concludes that "If the improvements from +P are fairly clear in the case of the .38 Special, they are anything but with the .45 and 9mm. In fact, I personally see no use for either. Improvement in penetration or expansion is marginal at best and +P loads in both calibers have significantly more recoil. The costs outweigh the benefits".

So not being able to reliably shoot +P 9mm ammo in my EMP is not an issue to me.

Regards,
James


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

extremist said:


> Finally found the article I remembered reading a while back. Unfortunately, it's not online, so I'll have to summarize:
> 
> Risk vs Benefit of +P Loads
> .45ACP (185gr vs 185gr +P)
> ...


Good summary. Charles Petty is definitely one of the more rational and thorough of gun rag writers.

Since the 9mm isn't a terribly powerful cartridge to begin with, I prefer +P, as do many shooters. While the ratio you quote does seem to mitigate slightly (1.5%) against 9mm +P, as I mentioned, my split times are for all practical purposes identical between +P and standard. Thus, since it costs me nothing in terms of shooting speed to get the extra 5.9%, I'll take the extra power and shoot +P, even in my light Glock 26.

I would also probably not carry a gun that is so marginal in reliability that a very slight increase in power makes it choke. That's just too thin a margin for error for my taste. Your mileage obviously varies.


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## Dave James (May 15, 2007)

2nd posting, so take it for what its worth,, Know of two troops who bought to qual and carry off duty,, neither one has run 100%{ typical 1911}, both have been sent back at lest once, one is going to go to Novak as soon as he can work on it,, 

Damn shame for a pistol just under a grand in my AO,, I'm still convinced that any thing under 4" in the 1911 platform is a mistake


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