# Oklahoma Joins the Constitutional Carry Club



## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gun-tweet-of-the-day-oklahoma-joins-the-constitutional-carry-club/

Is California next? Sarcasm intended. A government who does not trust it's citizens is not a representative government at all. Although, it may be that the majority of California citizens support their anti 2nd amendment government.


----------



## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

Glad they joined the club! The more the merrier!!


----------



## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

I am certain that there are more good guys than bad out there. Some bad guys will carry, lots of good guys should have the choice.

GW


----------



## corneileous (Feb 17, 2018)

I think it’s great but I just wonder what all changed that make not having to get a permit not seem as sweet of a deal anymore, especially with reciprocity with other states. So far the one thing I know that changed is that unless you have a permit, you can no longer carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Sabrien4 (Oct 16, 2019)

corneileous said:


> I think it's great but I just wonder what all changed that make not having to get a permit not seem as sweet of a deal anymore, especially with reciprocity with other states. So far the one thing I know that changed is that unless you have a permit, you can no longer carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


+1


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

corneileous said:


> I think it's great but I just wonder what all changed that make not having to get a permit not seem as sweet of a deal anymore, especially with reciprocity with other states. *So far the one thing I know that changed is that unless you have a permit, you can no longer carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol.*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's the same here in Arizona. You can carry but you still can't legally consume alcohol on those premises. I'm okay with that but what about those who drive to those places, consume alcoholic beverages and then drive home?

The biggest advantage of getting a permit is not having to undergo the NICS check each time you purchase a firearm. At least in Arizona, handguns are not registered and are not listed on the permit. The state really has no idea if you have one handgun or a hundred? Or if you sold them all.


----------



## corneileous (Feb 17, 2018)

desertman said:


> It's the same here in Arizona. You can carry but you still can't legally consume alcohol on those premises. I'm okay with that but what about those who drive to those places, consume alcoholic beverages and then drive home?


Here, it's not even about consuming alcohol. Even if you don't order an alcoholic beverage, you're not allowed to carry on those premises unless you have a permit. But even consuming alcohol somewhere else, I'm not sure what the law is on that for non-permit holders but if you do have a permit, you can, just not be intoxicated.


> The biggest advantage of getting a permit is not having to undergo the NICS check each time you purchase a firearm. At least in Arizona, handguns are not registered and are not listed on the permit. The state really has no idea if you have one handgun or a hundred? Or if you sold them all.


That must be nice but here, I don't think a permit prevents you from having to fill out the form when you buy a gun. Now, we've never had required background checks for private gun sales, though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

corneileous said:


> Here, it's not even about consuming alcohol. Even if you don't order an alcoholic beverage, *you're not allowed to carry on those premises unless you have a permit.* But even consuming alcohol somewhere else, I'm not sure what the law is on that for non-permit holders but if you do have a permit, you can, just not be intoxicated.
> That must be nice but here, I don't think a permit prevents you from having to fill out the form when you buy a gun. Now, we've never had required background checks for private gun sales, though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Like I said in my previous post, it's the same here in Arizona. The law only applies to establishments that sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on their premises, typically restaurants and of course bars. The law does not apply to private residences, private gatherings and stores that sell alcoholic beverages that are not to be consumed on their premises.

Filling out Form 4473 is not the same as the NICS check. Whether you have a permit or not, you still have to fill out that form when purchasing a firearm from a federally licensed dealer. This does not apply to private sales where they are allowed by law.

With the NICS check the firearms dealer has to call in to the system to verify that the purchaser is not a prohibited possessor as described by federal law. For any number of reasons those checks can and have been delayed. Sometimes the dealer can't get through and you can either wait around or come back later. If from the time the dealer makes the call and doesn't hear back within 3 days the sale can proceed after 3 days. If you have a concealed weapons permit you don't have to deal with any of that. You just fill out Form 4473 and off you go with your firearm.


----------



## corneileous (Feb 17, 2018)

desertman said:


> Like I said in my previous post, it's the same here in Arizona. The law only applies to establishments that sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on their premises, typically restaurants and of course bars. The law does not apply to private residences, private gatherings and stores that sell alcoholic beverages that are not to be consumed on their premises.
> 
> Filling out Form 4473 is not the same as the NICS check. Whether you have a permit or not, you still have to fill out that form when purchasing a firearm from a federally licensed dealer. This does not apply to private sales where they are allowed by law.
> 
> With the NICS check the firearms dealer has to call in to the system to verify that the purchaser is not a prohibited possessor as described by federal law. For any number of reasons those checks can and have been delayed. Sometimes the dealer can't get through and you can either wait around or come back later. If from the time the dealer makes the call and doesn't hear back within 3 days the sale can proceed after 3 days. If you have a concealed weapons permit you don't have to deal with any of that. You just fill out Form 4473 and off you go with your firearm.


Well, I guess we are arguing the same point but I guess it was within your first reply to me that was throwing me off by you saying initially that it was ok to carry in a restaurant in Arizona without a permit, that you just couldn't consume.

As far as the form 4473- to my knowledge.... here.... is also a background check. Permit or not, any time you legally buy a gun that is not a private sale, we have to fill that form out and they have to call the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation for a background check.

I never knew the background check and the ATF Form 4473 in other states wasn't two separate things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

All I gotta say is Constitutional Carry is what the framers intended and all states should follow suit. 

Nowhere in the bill of rights does it say you must have a permit to bear arms.


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

corneileous said:


> Well, I'm talking about restaurant carry. And here; I don't know about Arizona; but here, *you can't even carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol without a permit.* Don't matter if you're drinking or not.
> 
> As far as the form 4473- to my knowledge.... here.... is also a background check. Permit or not, any time you legally buy a gun that is not a private sale, we have to fill that form out and they have to call the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation for a background check.
> 
> ...


You can't do that legally in Arizona either as I've stated in both my posts:

"You can carry but you still *can't legally consume alcohol* on those premises". Post #6

"The law only applies to establishments that sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on their premises, *typically restaurants and of course bars*". Post #8

Federal Form 4473 is not under any circumstances a background check. It's based on the honor system. Prior to the NICS (National Instant Check System) law, in some states with the exception of handguns that was all that was needed to lawfully purchase a rifle or shotgun. In states that did not require a handgun license that was all that was needed for handguns as well. The completed Form 4473 does not go to any state or federal agency for review before a firearm can be sold. If that were the case then the dealer would have to send the signed Form 4473 into the BATF and wait for God only knows how long to get a response? That's the intended purpose of the NICS check. Form 4473 remains with the dealer for 20 years or until they go out of business, at which time they are required to surrender them to the BATF*.

It is a federal crime to lie on Form 4473, however anyone could lie on that form. But with the NICS check that would easily turn up when the dealer reviews Form 4473. At which point the transaction would be terminated and subject the potential purchaser to arrest and criminal prosecution. Before the NICS law went into affect, about the only way someone could get caught lying on Form 4473 is if the firearm turned up at a crime scene, was lost, surrendered or confiscated for any reason. The firearm is then traced back to its original purchaser and at the time the firearm was purchased the original purchaser was a prohibited possessor as described by federal law and made false statements on Form 4473.

As far as the NICS check goes any information that would prevent someone from lawfully possessing a firearm should be entered into it. Otherwise why even have it? That would include all of the conditions listed on Form 4473. Whether it is or not is anyone's guess? At least in my opinion since the NICS system is already in place there really isn't any need for Form 4473 other than to potentially catch someone who is lying on that form.

*Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry.--https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-long-are-licensees-required-maintain-atf-forms-4473


----------



## corneileous (Feb 17, 2018)

desertman said:


> You can't do that legally in Arizona either as I've stated in both my posts:
> 
> "You can carry but you still *can't legally consume alcohol* on those premises". Post #6
> 
> ...


Ok now you're contracting yourself. You're saying two different things. But before I explain... again.... I'm only talking about carrying- not consuming- in a _*restaurant.*_ I'm not talking about anywhere else.

And, I'm only talking about simply being in there.

But the one thing is true. Unless you have a permit in both states, do not even go in a restaurant that serves alcohol if you don't wish to disarm. According to that below, even Arizona law says nothing about being in there without buying/consuming.

This is from- 
https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-laws-state/arizona-gun-laws/#az-laws










It says nothing about consumption. It just says being in the place- which yes, that part is the same.

But about the back ground check and the FFL form- even though a one point I thought it was, I never said that the two were the same; I just simply said that Oklahoma at least.... does a background check also when buying a gun; nuff said.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## corneileous (Feb 17, 2018)

denner12 said:


> All I gotta say is Constitutional Carry is what the framers intended and all states should follow suit.
> 
> Nowhere in the bill of rights does it say you must have a permit to bear arms.


Nope, it doesn't. But too many people think that "well-regulated" part means we need to be regulated in the newer, more common definition of that word.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

corneileous said:


> Ok now you're contracting yourself. You're saying two different things. But before I explain... again.... I'm only talking about carrying- not consuming- in a _*restaurant.*_
> 
> _*I'm not talking about anywhere else. *_
> 
> ...


Sorry, and with all due respect you've lost me!

You stated in your post #4:
"So far the one thing I know that changed is that unless you have a permit, you can no longer carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol."

I answered in my post #6:
"*It's the same here in Arizona.* You can carry but you still can't legally consume alcohol on those premises." Which means just that: *It's the same here in Arizona, *as it is in Oklahoma.

I then went on:
"You can carry but you still can't legally consume alcohol on those premises."
***Which means that with a concealed weapons permit you're allowed to enter any establishment that sells or serves alcoholic beverages on their premises providing you don't consume any. *I forgot to add: That you can't legally enter any establishment with a firearm, permit or not if it is posted.

***It is illegal for any person in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer to consume spirituous liquor. ARS 4-244(31)*

*There is only one exception:*
This paragraph does not prohibit the consumption of small amounts of spirituous liquor by an *undercover peace officer on assignment* to investigate the licensed establishment.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? I'm not contradicting myself at all. That IS the law here in Arizona.

*As far as the background check goes:*
Whenever anyone throughout the United States buys a gun from a federally licensed dealer: They must fill out Form 4473 and the dealer must then call into the NICS system before they can proceed with the sale. When you say that "Oklahoma *at least....* does a background check *also* when buying a gun". You're implying that other states don't? They key word's are: "*at least....*" and "*also*".

Here's what I found regarding Oklahoma's laws regarding the carrying of handguns:

*Restrictions on carrying handguns[edit]*
Individuals possessing handgun carry permits may not carry handguns of greater than .45 caliber. Individuals with handgun carry permits may not carry in an establishment whose primary purpose is the serving of alcoholic beverages. *Handgun carry permit holders may not consume alcoholic beverages while carrying.* Doing so will result in revocation of carry permit and possible criminal charges. Carry with permit *is* allowed in an establishment that serves alcoholic beverages (such as a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages) as long as that is not the *primary* purpose of said establishment. Handgun carry permit holders cannot carry into schools or government buildings. Unless carry is allowed by the property owner or event holder, it is illegal to carry into a sports venue during a professional sporting event or in any place where gambling is authorized (such as a casino). As of November 1, 2019, concealed carry, but not open carry, is allowed at public parks and zoos.[8]

Handgun carry permit holders must have their license and a valid driver license or state-issued ID on their person while they are carrying.---https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Oklahoma
At any rate, I'm done.


----------



## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

Bottom line is that firearms and alcohol/drugs don't mix.


----------



## aarondhgraham (Mar 17, 2011)

Well, it's day 5 of Oklahoma having Constitutional Carry,,,
And still not one drop of blood in the gutters.

I've been watching and I haven't seen one example yet,,,
We've had open carry for a year now,,,
The initial surge has abated.

I do know one lady who has put a small revolver in her purse,,,
I offered to stitch a small fitted holster to the inside.

Aarond

.


----------

