# single stack, internal hammer? or other options



## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

Female total newbi here - never shot a handgun before. (Though that will change lat er on today when we fire a few of our friend's). 

I just got my pistol permit here in NY (what a pain!). I bought a Walther PPK/S (two months ago thanks to our fine laws, when I had no idea what I was doing)- mistake. I hate it, cant rack it.

I am looking for a 9mm or .380 semi-auto. I have held a number of guns but am starting to get overwhelmed. I have some qualifications that have to be met and am looking for some advice.

First and foremost I need to be able to rack it.

Secondly, I need (most likely) a single stack mag. Most double stacks are too wide for me to grip comfortably. The most comfortable gun I've held is the S&W 39-2, but I want to buy new. I cant seem to find anywhere online how wide that gun is.

Finally, I am not opposed to an external hammer, but I like the feel of the trigger pull on the glock/XD internal hammers. But as said those (as far as I've seen) are a little too wide for my taste.

Wondering if there is an internal hammer, single stack out there? If not, I'm sure I can get used to the hammer and prob just have to train to cock it on the first shot for accuracy sake.

So what do you suggest? TIA!


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Kel Tec PF-9 comes to mind. Internal hammer and single stack 9mm. I'm pretty sure a few guys here have them and there are some reviews. Sig makes a single stack, the P239 IIRC, but it does have an external hammer. You may also consider a 1911 style pistol chambered in 9mm. Again though, external hammer. 

As far as racking it, that's going to be one of those hands-on things that only you can decide. If racking the slide is really a problem, have you considered a revolver? If this gun is meant for range only duty, then it doesn't matter much. But if this is for self-defense, then, IMO, you're much better off with 6 rounds of .357 that are ready to go with just a pull of the trigger than 7 or so of 9mm that you have difficulty loading; especially when in a SD situation, time is of the essence.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

buttrfli said:


> Wondering if there is an internal hammer, single stack out there? If not, I'm sure I can get used to the hammer and prob just have to train to cock it on the first shot for accuracy sake.
> 
> So what do you suggest? TIA!


Yes, there is. It's called the Kahr CW9, and you should not have any problem with grip size or it's relatively low cost. If you want a metal frame, look at the Kahr MK9. There is also the Walther PPS to consider (hugely different from your PPK/s), but it is much more expensive than a CW9.

That being said..... Although I have a feeling that you will one day become proficient with racking a semi's slide once you get proper training, you should indeed consider a revolver for now. No racking, no clearing a jam, easy to load/unload/check to see if it's loaded. They come in a great many sizes, calibers, and cost, and there is at least one that will suit you just fine.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

The new Walther PPS might work, but I also recommend you take a look at the Smith & Wesson model 3913. It is a great little semi-auto in 9mm. It does have a da/sa trigger, but it is a single stack and it is very easy to shoot. I had a LT on the police department who got one for an off duty gun but liked it so much he now carries it on duty.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

Oh BTW - if you want to buy a new 39-2, let me know and I can point you in the right direction. Of course it wouldn't make a good conceal-carry weapon, but it would make a good range/practice gun.

PhilR.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Welcome from Northern Arizona.

You might want to check for an answer from:

http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx

I understand that forum to be Guns from a womans perspective.

My intent is not to run you off to another forum just to get you better answers.

Let us know what you find out over there so in the future we can provide better answers when a Lady asks a question.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

P6 Sig Sauer be a good one.

Oh..and welcome from Ky.


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## biotech (Oct 16, 2008)

My suggusetion would be the Kahr pistols. 
If you are haveing trouble racking the slide on the walther you will probably not like having a small polymer frame pistol (because of recoil). 
Usually when people are having problem racking the slide it is because they are only pulling the slide back and trying to hold the frame still. Try pushing the frame forward as you are pulling the slide back. Also get out and actually try several pistols before making your own choice. All of the ones suggested are good pistols but they will fit each person differently.


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Check out a HK USP Compact in 9mm. My wife has no problem handling and operating this gun. The slide is easy to rack, the grip is thin, and the recoil is easy to manage.


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

Thanks to everyone! Wow where to start...

I am not completely against a revolver but I am not really favoring one right now. In a few hours I will have shot a few, so maybe I will change my mind. 

Right now its not self defense as I cant legally carry and conceal (again our fabulous laws and liberal judges). But the intention will be SD eventually. I really just want to find something that I am comfortable holding and shooting so I can really get to know what I'm doing.

I intend to take a basic class however the NRA classes are all at least 3 hours from me and planning is difficult right now as I have an almost 2 yo and I am 5 mos pregnant. Not to mention owning our own business - so work can call at all hours. Summer at least would be a most realistic time of year but I will then have a newborn...I digress...

I should ask around to the local gun shops and clubs as to what classes they have locally. That will at least be something.

Again as I live in the boonies there aren't any ranges where I can rent and fire guns. Right now we are doing second best, meeting up with a friend who has about 10 guns for me to try. That will be in a few hours.

It may be wise to wait and not rush into my next purchase. Our dealer is really doing us a favor and I need to turn the gun back into him ASAP. We may just end up getting something else for DH and waiting til I find what I want.

The first forum I went to was "women and guns" and they directed me to the cornered cat. Lot of good info but I've kinda been there done that to some degree. I perused at 3am when I was up thinking about what gun to get....

As far as racking...I can rack DHs brand new Glock 30 so that is not a huge issue, its just an issue with the PPK/S. I am a little wimpy but not so wimpy that I cant handle the semi-autos. In other words I'm willing to learn and put some effort into this...I feel like it would be a waste to do anything else.

When DH suggested I get one, I was opposed, but once he convinced me I decided I wouldn't be the wife who's DH bought her a gun with a laser that she's fired only 10 rounds through. 

So I am pretty serious and I hope that after today I will have a feel for shooting a few and have some better ideas of what's going to work for me. 

I will research the models you've mentioned and if anyone else has suggestions please add them to the list. Thanks again to all of you!


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

Congrats on the new baby when he/she comes around. My wife into a bit of the same problem you are mentioning with not being able to rack the slide. She bought a Beretta 84FS in stainless steel and had a heck of a time with the slide. She ended up pulling the hammer back then racking the slide and that seemed to help immensely.

It is a double stack mag and not single stack as you indicated you liked so it may not be something of interest to you. However, pulling the hammer back first may assist greatly in being able to rack the slide.

Good luck and may your next labor be in minutes and not hours!


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

With the fear of preaching, if you are pregnant, you probably should not be going to the gun range shooting guns. Lead exposure is nothing to take lightly. I would suggest you discuss this with your doctor before handling firearms and/or ammunition.


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

> With the fear of preaching, if you are pregnant, you probably should not be going to the gun range shooting guns. Lead exposure is nothing to take lightly. I would suggest you discuss this with your doctor before handling firearms and/or ammunition.


Thank you for the concern. I have considered that and we will actually be at my in-law's. Easy clean up there. To be on the safe side I wont do too much loading.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

buttrfli said:


> Thank you for the concern. I have considered that and we will actually be at my in-law's. Easy clean up there. To be on the safe side I wont do too much loading.


Actually, it's not loading that you have to worry about. _Shooting _handguns will deposit residue on your hands/fingertips. These residues are full of different chemical compounds besides lead.

You also do not want to be around such high sound levels either. The fetus will not have any hearing protection, and the walls of your uterus and the fluid within are not enough of a barrier to protect the baby's developing ears.

You really need to consult with your Ob/Gyn about this (I already know what they will say...).

PhilR.


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

Thank you for the suggestions and information. I did go out today. I shot about 8 .22 rounds, 2 .357 rounds, 6 .45 rounds. It was outside and about 15 degrees. I looked up pregnancy and shooting and found this  to be of interest.

That being said I am discouraged, but believe everything will be just fine. I will not be shooting again until after birth and most likely much later. Thanks again.


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## tonyjh (Dec 31, 2008)

I'd like to suggest the Kahr P9. Although I'm a guy, I have relatively small hands, and the P9 has been a great little pistol, specially after I added the Hogue Handall Jr. to it. Good luck in your search, and welcome to the world of shooting!
Tony


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

I forgot to add that price cap is $700

I am leaning toward the Kahr CW9 but I havent held one yet. I have it narrowed down to the following:
Kahr CW9
Walther PPS
S&W 908 or 3913 (not sure how different these two are)

How bout the Beretta Px4 Storm?

DH is pushing me to a Springfield XD...he seems to think there is a single stack model...anyone know?


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

As far as I know, the 908 is the economy version of the 3913. No realy big difference.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

buttrfli said:


> I forgot to add that price cap is $700
> 
> I am leaning toward the Kahr CW9 but I havent held one yet. I have it narrowed down to the following:
> Kahr CW9
> ...


The XD will be thicker than the CW9 or PPS.

The metal S&W's are great, but will be heavier and thicker than a poly pistol. Great for range use, but slightly harder to conceal.

The Beretta will be thick overall, and will most likely cost more than an XD or baby Glock or M&Pcompact.

Overall though, a nice range of pistols to choose from....

PhilR.


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

> The Beretta will be thick overall, and will most likely cost more than an XD or baby Glock or M&Pcompact.


Yup...after shopping today didn't really like any of these.

I found a P9 and a PPS about an hour from us so we are going to look at them tomorrow. I cant find a CW9 anywhere. Is the P9 going to be basically the same feel as the CW9? Everything I read says its the big brother, etc.

I also found a Springfield 1911 EMP (yes waaaaay out of price range) but thought it would be fun to look at. DH really favors the 1911 style and thinks if I really like it I should get it (mostly cuz he wants it...)

No one around here seems to carry or hardly know what a S&W 908 or 5906 is...maybe thats just destiny.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

The 5906 was very popular as a police sidearm some years ago, but is not very common anymore.


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## PhilR. (Apr 25, 2007)

buttrfli said:


> I found a P9 and a PPS about an hour from us so we are going to look at them tomorrow. I cant find a CW9 anywhere. Is the P9 going to be basically the same feel as the CW9?
> 
> I also found a Springfield 1911 EMP (yes waaaaay out of price range) but thought it would be fun to look at. DH really favors the 1911 style and thinks if I really like it I should get it (mostly cuz he wants it...)
> 
> No one around here seems to carry or hardly know what a S&W 908 or 5906 is...maybe thats just destiny.


Kahr has a website, and there you can find complete statistics that will allow you to compare the two. You can order a CW9 from Buds gunshop website. The last time I looked, they were $369 delivered. You just have to line up an FFL holder to do the transfer.

The EMP is a nice pistol, and would make a good range gun. I would not recommend it for defense use until you have a fair amount of shooting experience.

The reason why no one knows about the older metal S&W's is that they don't sell well, and gunshops will tend not to carry them. Most people want a high-cap polymer pistol instead....

PhilR.


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## tonyjh (Dec 31, 2008)

buttrfli said:


> Yup...after shopping today didn't really like any of these.
> 
> I found a P9 and a PPS about an hour from us so we are going to look at them tomorrow. I cant find a CW9 anywhere. *Is the P9 going to be basically the same feel as the CW9? Everything I read says its the big brother, etc.*
> I also found a Springfield 1911 EMP (yes waaaaay out of price range) but thought it would be fun to look at. DH really favors the 1911 style and thinks if I really like it I should get it (mostly cuz he wants it...)
> ...


Yes, everything about the P9 will be pretty much the same as the CW9 - I don't know what anyone means by the P9 being a "big brother" to the CW9...


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

Well basically the CW9 design was based on the P9 with a few cheaper parts to make it more affordable for a different market (from what I've read).

After watching some videos and reading some more reviews I am leaning toward the Kahr, but holding them today will hopefully seal the deal. Thanks guys for all the info and help you have been great!!!


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## rockon (Jan 7, 2009)

buttrfli said:


> Well basically the CW9 design was based on the P9 with a few cheaper parts to make it more affordable for a different market (from what I've read).
> 
> After watching some videos and reading some more reviews I am leaning toward the Kahr, but holding them today will hopefully seal the deal. Thanks guys for all the info and help you have been great!!!


Buttrfli, I am also from NY welcomed to the fourm. I have filled out my paperwork and have an appointment for late next month to submit it and get prints and photos. 
In a few of your posts you mention how hard it has been for you to get a CCW and how they restricted it. I am from Dutchess county. I would like to get a CCW that is my main purpose. Are you in the same county? Just wondering what I am up against here.

As for suggestions I wish I could help I havent even been able to hols a gun yet....damm NY laws. Good luck be safe and congrats on a large family with more to come. I have one now and hope to have another.

Rock On


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi. welcome here and to shooting. I am jumping in late, and actually think most really good suggestions have been thrown out there already. I will suggest a Makarov if you can find one. Slightly easier to rack (unless an overpower spring was put in for recoil), all steel so they absorb the recoil a bit. They are hard to find though, at least locally here. I am in the capital region of New York.
On another note, I recently passed my NRA Basic Pistol Safety COurse Instructiors Course, and would be happy to teach it to you and your SO if you are near. And no mods this is not a solicitation. I'll do it for cost of materials. I need the experience. So if this will help (and i may still be 3 hours away lol) then the offer is there once i reciev my creds back.

I tend to have smaller hands for a guy, so have some similarity there in what is comfortable to hold. I know of a couple of Kahrs (don't remember models though) in this area, so if that is not far i can give names of some stores.

Good Luck, Keep trying.
And Congratulations


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

> Buttrfli, I am also from NY welcomed to the fourm. I have filled out my paperwork and have an appointment for late next month to submit it and get prints and photos.
> In a few of your posts you mention how hard it has been for you to get a CCW and how they restricted it. I am from Dutchess county. I would like to get a CCW that is my main purpose. Are you in the same county? Just wondering what I am up against here.
> 
> As for suggestions I wish I could help I havent even been able to hols a gun yet....damm NY laws. Good luck be safe and congrats on a large family with more to come. I have one now and hope to have another.


I am in Fulton county (1 hr northwest of Albany) and there are two judges who have the same policy on permits here...everyone pretty much gets restricted to "target, hunting, fishing, hiking". After a year you can apply to have the restrictions removed. I hear downstate that they are even stricter. DH got them to put "employment" on his - he spent a long time convincing the judge of the necessity and that he is worthy of it due to his military background. Even though his employment is 24/7 and all over the county they still wouldn't give him unrestricted.



> On another note, I recently passed my NRA Basic Pistol Safety COurse Instructiors Course, and would be happy to teach it to you and your SO if you are near. And no mods this is not a solicitation. I'll do it for cost of materials. I need the experience. So if this will help (and i may still be 3 hours away lol) then the offer is there once i reciev my creds back.
> 
> I tend to have smaller hands for a guy, so have some similarity there in what is comfortable to hold. I know of a couple of Kahrs (don't remember models though) in this area, so if that is not far i can give names of some stores.


Thanks for the offer - I may take you up on it in about 6-9 mos, when I have time after baby comes. We were in Albany today...twice...B&J guns.

I am experiencing buyers remorse at the moment because, of course, I chose the most expensive gun on the list...Springfield 1911 EMP 9mm. I know, I know...out of price range...external hammer...totally not what I thought I wanted. But that is why everyone says hold a lot of guns. They're right!

I held the Kahr P9, the Walther PPS, a couple Sigs, S&W M&P, Kimber 1911. My biggest problem with the internal hammers was that I have this knobby thumb knuckle (skinny, long fingers) and the edge on the grip where my thumb knuckle hits is terribly uncomfortable at first grab. I always have to adjust my grip. That's not what you want in a bad situation. On the 1911 style it fits perfect every time. No wear and tear on my knuckle...which I actually got just from holding the other guns...cant imagine if I was firing them.

I thought I didn't want the external hammer because it was more to fuss with and I was concerned about the DA first trigger pull. But once it was explained that when I rack it, its cocked (I wouldn't carry it/store it with a round in the chamber), then I realized I don't have to worry about that first trigger pull being different then the rest, since its already cocked. Hope that make sense...

So buyers remorse - just cuz it was ALOT of money...but I'm really happy with it. Plus...its pretty :smt023 . I hope to fire just a few rounds this week (outside, with blankets stuffed under my coat) and then put her away til the summer (DH is considering carrying it but the holster it comes with really doesn't conceal well on him, so we shall see.)

I'll let you know how I like shooting it. Thanks again for all your help. I wouldn't have gotten here with out you!


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## rockon (Jan 7, 2009)

After a year you can apply to have the restrictions removed. I hear downstate that they are even stricter. 

This is the first time I have heard of being able to apply for a CCW after the first year thanks for the Info. 

Yes from what I understand the closer to the city you are the more restricted. 

Do you know where I might be able to find info on that year of "probation on CCW" just curious.

Thanks


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

> Do you know where I might be able to find info on that year of "probation on CCW" just curious.


Nope. I don't think its really a documented thing. We both went in asking for unrestricted, figuring that its best just to ask for what we want straight out and the worst they could do was restrict it. Its the judges call. The judges here just have that policy. We have a friend who got unrestricted on the first go but that was quite a few years ago and I think he knew the judge. It very unheard of. 
The police officer who taught our safety course said that if you are ever pulled over or "caught" with your gun, you are always on your way to or from the range...


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## rockon (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks I will do some digging. On that topic.


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Each county is up to the judge(s) so if Fulton has a sort of informal "wait a year (which i heard saratoga also has), it would not mean that another would also. On a nicer note, Columbia is pretty gun friendly and they are USUALLY issue unrestricted out the gate.

buttrfli, glad to hear that you found one that fits you. about the only other like yours i like (well besides my .45 lol) is the para ldc (?). good luck wtih your springfield, enjoy. NRA also has a F.I.R.S.T as a one gun (yours) version of the basic course that you may want to consider.

j&g was who i knew had the Kahr so good luck there. Although their selection is good, thier prices seem a bit high to me. theer is a great store in valatie also (about 15/20 mins further south) run by a VERY knowledgable and friendly woman.
Niadh


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## unpecador (May 9, 2008)

Congrats on your purchase! I'm sure you'll both be very happy with it. :smt023


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

unpecador said:


> Congrats on your purchase! I'm sure you'll both be very happy with it. :smt023


+1, to belong to this forum you must post PICS of your new guns and of course the baby when born!!!!:smt033


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

Well, as soon as I have a chance to actually play with it I will get some pics up. We have been playing catch up since taking about 5 days off to research and shop. I've barely held the thing since I got it. :smt022


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

Well yesterday was the day!!! I finally got to play :mrgreen: Got familiar with her and then shot off a full mag in the backyard. The recoil is no problem. It malfunctioned on the first and second round but but after that was fine. DH looked it up and it seems that can happen. After 300 rounds it should be completely reliable. I really wished I could have shot all 300 yesterday - in other words...I love it!!! I will have to wait for warmer weather and skinnier belly though :smt023 I will get some pics up eventually.


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## buttrfli (Jan 25, 2009)

pics:




























And just for fun - Ruger 77RS Bolt Action, Round Top, .30-06 Rifle we got in trade for my PPK/S:


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

Very nice!!!!! There is something about those rose colored grips that I really like.


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