# Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup



## 48dodge (Nov 1, 2008)

Found this on the Drudge Report. Good to see stuff like this in the news. Hope the good guy recovers quickly!
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/966133.html
*
Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup*
A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.

BY ROBERT SAMUELS
[email protected]

An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire.

The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''

Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

> A customer eyed him and the two started arguing.


That's not good...


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

bruce333 said:


> That's not good...


+1. If he decided he was going to get confrontational with an armed robber, his weapon should've been out first thing.

It's so easy to see it after the fact, though...tough situation. I hope the guy recovers quickly, too.

KG


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## 48dodge (Nov 1, 2008)

Nope, not good. I hadn't noticed that first time through. I thought the person being held up was the one arguing with the gunman. Still, I don't think it was a situation that escalated due to the arguing. The situation was at a head already. I'm thinking any "arguing" was probably the GG trying to defuse the situation.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

kg333 said:


> It's so easy to see it after the fact, though...tough situation. I hope the guy recovers quickly, too.
> 
> KG


Yup...It's tough to know what happened just going by news stories also. They only report what fits in the space/time allowed, and don't follow up with the Police report to get the facts straight, that would take a couple days and they just _have_ to get the news out quickly....


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm sure we could dissect this to death, but well never know as, already pointed out, we will never have all the facts. But, one thing is for sure: 

Good Guy: 1
Bad Guy: 0


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## Redwolf (Nov 29, 2008)

The good news is that we dont have to pay to put him in jail, worry about him getting parole, killing cops or anyone for that matter.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Bad guy dead, good guy is gonna live, no innocent bystanders harmed. 

Case closed.


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## macgulley (Mar 10, 2009)

One less bad guy in the world. That's a good thing.:smt023


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## jediwebdude (Nov 30, 2008)

If the robber was going in, getting the cash, and leaving, then this conceal carry citizen overreacted. Since the place was busy, the robber was likely not going to shoot anyone. By interfering as he did, the conceal carry citizen put the surrounding customers/employees at risk because of the shootout. 

However, if the robber was , for example, doped up and/or acting really unstable, then the citizen’s involvement might have been justified. I’m sure this incident will go to a grand jury and the citizen may face charges. A lot will depend on witness statements and their ability to describe how the robber was behaving.

If I had been in this position and was legally carrying a concealed weapon, I would have made a concerted effort to protect my family, get a good description of the guy, and observe his every move. I only would have drawn a weapon if the robber pulled the trigger. Sadly, that means I would be sacrificing the clerk for the sake of being sure of violent intent. Not an easy situation to be in. It will be interesting to see how this one turns out. I hope for the good guy's sake, it is ruled as justified. 

I expect Burger King to put signs on their restaurants now stating that conceal carry in their establishments is forbidden.


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

jediwebdude said:


> If the robber was going in, getting the cash, and leaving, then this conceal carry citizen overreacted. Since the place was busy, the robber was likely not going to shoot anyone. By interfering as he did, the conceal carry citizen put the surrounding customers/employees at risk because of the shootout.


I can't say I agree with you here. If the robber presented a firearm and the "Give me the money OR ELSE" ultimatum, the life of anyone present is at risk, not just the cashier. The whole "likely not going to shoot anyone" wager is a tall one considering someone's life may very well be on the line. The CCWer did not introduce the situation putting customers/employees at risk. The robber did.



jediwebdude said:


> However, if the robber was , for example, doped up and/or acting really unstable, then the citizen's involvement might have been justified. I'm sure this incident will go to a grand jury and the citizen may face charges. A lot will depend on witness statements and their ability to describe how the robber was behaving.


I'm not a doctor or nurse. I am not qualified to determine whether or not Joe Schmoe is under the influence of any chemicals or contraband. However, robbing a publically-accessible establishment with a lethal weapon pretty much fills in the "acting really unstable" hole.



jediwebdude said:


> If I had been in this position and was legally carrying a concealed weapon, I would have made a concerted effort to protect my family, get a good description of the guy, and observe his every move. I only would have drawn a weapon if the robber pulled the trigger. Sadly, that means I would be sacrificing the clerk for the sake of being sure of violent intent. Not an easy situation to be in. It will be interesting to see how this one turns out. I hope for the good guy's sake, it is ruled as justified.


I'm not sure I could live with a decision like that. Granted, I am totally with you, the situation and the decision is very difficult. I do find a bit of comfort in knowing if the assailant did decide to pull the trigger, it's very possible his next step would be to eliminate witnesses. Frankly I believe that's all the justification I need.



jediwebdude said:


> I expect Burger King to put signs on their restaurants now stating that conceal carry in their establishments is forbidden.


I think we can both agree this is definitely a step in the wrong direction....


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## jediwebdude (Nov 30, 2008)

literaltrance said:


> I can't say I agree with you here. If the robber presented a firearm and the "Give me the money OR ELSE" ultimatum, the life of anyone present is at risk, not just the cashier. The whole "likely not going to shoot anyone" wager is a tall one considering someone's life may very well be on the line. The CCWer did not introduce the situation putting customers/employees at risk. The robber did.
> 
> I'm not a doctor or nurse. I am not qualified to determine whether or not Joe Schmoe is under the influence of any chemicals or contraband. However, robbing a publically-accessible establishment with a lethal weapon pretty much fills in the "acting really unstable" hole.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. This is exactly why I posted my thoughts here. I want there to be an exchange on thoughts of how to react in this situation. We can all learn from the idea exchanges. Good grief...I sound like a controversial liberal artist who claims the offensive artwork was done to provoke dialogue.

Seriously though, I hope this turns out in favor of the good guy. If I'm ever in a situation, I hope the decision to use my weapon is more clearcut than this.

The doped up behavior thing is something that is not going to be evident to everyone. I use to catch shoplifters for a dept store (surrounded by pawn shops) in a bad part of a major city. While I was in plain clothes and wasn't allowed to be armed, we usually took an off duty officer with us on busts that we predicted would go bad. This discernment was based on appearance and behavioral assessments. When we did bust a doped up person, it is a scary thing. They are unpredictable, stronger than usual, and lack any sense of rationality. Had one guy who seemed like he wanted to cooperate, was walking back with me, my partner, and a uniformed police officer. In the blink of an eye, the guy turned and put the officer on the ground. He tried to get the officer's gun. Took my partner and I all the strength we had to pull him off of the officer.


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

Very interesting story. Innocents protected, bad guy gone and the good guy hopefully will recover and be found justified. Brandishing of a fire arm during the commission of a crime would be justification enough for the action taken I would think but as pointed out we are missing a lot of pieces to this puzzle. I can't imagine engaging in a gun battle in the middle of a crowded Burger King. But if we could pick the time and place for trouble to find us we'd be a no show and avoid it all together or bring a rifle and a few friends. All's well that ends well.


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## truman565 (Jun 27, 2007)

Yeah I read about this today myself.

I agree with both jediwebdude and literaltrance. On one hand you really don't know what anyone's intentions are. 
-If you let them go and they leave then no one dies and hopefully only he goes to court. 
-If he shoots the cashier but no one else and then leaves then you may feel guilty for not doing anything but you are still alive and don't have to go to court.
-If he kills everyone then obviously not doing anything was the wrong move.
-If you act and kill him then no one dies but now you have medical costs for your wounds (in the case), courts costs, and the possibility of being sued.

I am not going to even try to judge this from the couch. All I can say is I hope I would make the right decision. I also hope the carrying citizen makes a fast recovery and doesn't incur any court costs.

All I can say is what a sad sad state of civilization we are in when people are ready to jump on the bandwagon and send money and help to far far away places like Darfur, but when there is someone in need of help right in front of their face they are either unwilling to help or afraid to help because the law doesn't support their decision to help. This citizen showed some courage in my book.


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## Pistolero (Mar 6, 2009)

It's interesting to note how carrying a concealed firearm can escalate a situation quickly. The perp had it coming. Anyone brazen enough to pull a gun on someone to demand something that doesn't belong to them is a threat and a menace and has it coming. On the other hand, laws and courtroom proceedures are such that a law revering citizen that carries for defense has a difficult time defending their case when they aren't the primary target of the perpetrator's offensive. If the CCW didn't argue or draw, there MAY have been zero deaths. That's hard to argue either way and would depend on the skill of the prosecution and defensive lawyers. In this case, having money to burn on legal defense would be helpful. I REALLY hope this turns out well for the CCW.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

The way I see it the BG had the clerk covered and the CC guy pulled and told him to drop it. The BG decided to try his luck and came up snake eyes. That's a had one to play. The BG must have figured he had nothing to loose.....most likely had a rap sheet as long as your arm and was going away for good anyway. Second guessing I'd have dropped the hammer the milisecond he started to turn in my direction. Still only a head shot would have stopped him cold and he most likely was shooting the CC guy as his pump was running dry.
*Pretty heavy stuff!*
It might have been better to let him take the cash and go????


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## literaltrance (Dec 24, 2008)

Pistolero said:


> It's interesting to note how carrying a concealed firearm can escalate a situation quickly. The perp had it coming. Anyone brazen enough to pull a gun on someone to demand something that doesn't belong to them is a threat and a menace and has it coming. On the other hand, laws and courtroom proceedures are such that a law revering citizen that carries for defense has a difficult time defending their case when they aren't the primary target of the perpetrator's offensive. If the CCW didn't argue or draw, there MAY have been zero deaths. That's hard to argue either way and would depend on the skill of the prosecution and defensive lawyers. In this case, having money to burn on legal defense would be helpful. I REALLY hope this turns out well for the CCW.


I'm no lawyer, and I'm not necessarily trying to be one, but I don't think it's a stretch to say anyone in the immediate vicinity of the robbery was in danger of getting seriously injured or killed. Bullets by nature will over-penetrate, ricochet, fragment...you name it. If the robber presented a gun in an unlawful manner, he is endangering the lives of everyone around him, and because of that he should also expect to get shot.

"I rest my case." :mrgreen:


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

literaltrance said:


> I'm no lawyer, and I'm not necessarily trying to be one, but I don't think it's a stretch to say anyone in the immediate vicinity of the robbery was in danger of getting seriously injured or killed. Bullets by nature will over-penetrate, ricochet, fragment...you name it. If the robber presented a gun in an unlawful manner, he is endangering the lives of everyone around him, and because of that he should also expect to get shot.
> 
> "I rest my case." :mrgreen:


Plus 1 on that. Once that line is crossed it is a deadly force threat.


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## ericridebike (Mar 22, 2009)

Yeah, hopefully things go well for the CCW holder. Like said before, I think a lot of it may come down to what the witnesses say. If it turns out that he opened his mouth & started the argument with the bad guy, probably won't go good for him. One less scumbag to worry about now though and maybe some of these other scumbags may hear about what happened to him & think twice before they do something stupid.


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## bps3040 (Jan 6, 2008)

literaltrance said:


> I'm no lawyer, and I'm not necessarily trying to be one, but I don't think it's a stretch to say anyone in the immediate vicinity of the robbery was in danger of getting seriously injured or killed. Bullets by nature will over-penetrate, ricochet, fragment...you name it. If the robber presented a gun in an unlawful manner, he is endangering the lives of everyone around him, and because of that he should also expect to get shot.
> 
> "I rest my case." :mrgreen:


+1. I hope we get more info on this. Why did he argue? If you feel threatened, protect yourself. That is what sticks out most to me.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

There's no winner here. The bad guy is dead and the good guy is in the hospital with (likely) life-altering injuries and bills he'll never be able to pay if he doesn't have good insurance. And then he's going to have to pay for a lawyer to defend against any charges from the DA and the inevitable lawsuit from the crook's family. I hope this guy's boss is understanding enough not to fire him for missing work while he recovers.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

kev74 said:


> There's no winner here. The bad guy is dead and the good guy is in the hospital with (likely) life-altering injuries and bills he'll never be able to pay if he doesn't have good insurance. And then he's going to have to pay for a lawyer to defend against any charges from the DA and the inevitable lawsuit from the crook's family. I hope this guy's boss is understanding enough not to fire him for missing work while he recovers.


Burger King will probably sue him for the cost of the bio hazard clean-up as well. Just like that water taxi company sued the airline that crashed into the Hudson because it disrupted their schedules and they had to pay overtime to the employees that were rescuing the passengers! :smt076


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## Razorback58 (Mar 20, 2009)

Without being there and knowing all the facts, all you can do is guess. The CCW could have been completely justified in what he did by trying to protect everyone, or he could have put everyone else in danger by seeing this as an oppurtunity. You really don't know without all the facts. Personally, I hope that it all turns out OK for him.


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## schrodel (Dec 9, 2008)

That is a very difficult situation. You can not really predict how you will react in that situation until you are in it. Hope everything works out for the good guy.


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## Brevard (Jan 24, 2009)

Mt take on this is the following. Now not being able to read minds or knowing the guys intent I believe the CCW guy was justified. The man pulled a gun and pointed it at a person. Without knowing you could be protecting the cashier from deadly intent which is justifiable here.

This is one of those border decisions. You could say the guy may take the money and go. You can say he may have shot at someone to get everyone to duck or move for a quicker get away. He may have shot some people on the way for a more hystrical crowd which could possible make people remember things that didnt happen like several different descriptions.

For me the big what if would be...What is he shots the cashier and they die or are seriously wounded? Could I live with myself knowing I could have prevented it?


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## jediwebdude (Nov 30, 2008)

*update on the story*

This story provides some more details on the criminal's existing record as well as what the CCW said during the confrontation:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/970060.html

Key phrase here is this:

"Customer John Landers, armed with a 9 mm Glock and a concealed weapons permit, saw the teen and confronted him, telling him to put down the gun.

Jean-Baptiste refused and fired his weapon.

Landers, 45, fired back."


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

> aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, resisting an officer with violence and carjacking





> On Tuesday, Jean-Baptiste was _out on bond_ awaiting trial for the carjacking charge when he walked into a Burger King at 5398 Biscayne Blvd. around 4 p.m


Does anybody see the pattern in recent news stories?

Another violent repeat offender let out on bond to commit more crimes.:smt076

At least this time, someone was there that could stop him.


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## 48dodge (Nov 1, 2008)

bruce333 said:


> Does anybody see the pattern in recent news stories?
> 
> Another violent repeat offender let out on bond to commit more crimes.:smt076
> 
> At least this time, someone was there that could stop him.


Why are you such a hate monger, Bruce!:mrgreen:

I wonder if people are going to have a march celebrating this BK robber like they did the cop killer.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

jediwebdude said:


> "Customer John Landers, armed with a 9 mm Glock and a concealed weapons permit, *saw the teen and confronted him, telling him to put down the gun.*


Now this is where I play armchair quarterback. If the statement is true, then the CCW is a fool. If he decided he was going to intervene, why the hell didn't he just shoot the guy, which he was legally entitled to do? Instead, he tried to talk the guy down, in which he lost the element of surprise, and gave the bad guy a chance to shoot; which he did. I'm all for fair play, but when it comes to my mortality, I'm going to cheat like a son of a bitch. That BG should have had a gun on the clerk one second and the next second he's saying,"WTF just happend?" to St. Peter just before he got his one-way ticket to hell.


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## 48dodge (Nov 1, 2008)

One thing I would worry about with just shooting the guy is if he has a gun trained on the guy behind the counter and you shoot him, he could flinch and pull the trigger.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

48dodge said:


> One thing I would worry about with just shooting the guy is if he has a gun trained on the guy behind the counter and you shoot him, he could flinch and pull the trigger.


Easily remedied; while you are shooting him you do a tactical bunny kick to aim the gun up to the ceiling. It works! I've seen it in the movies! :smt033


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## jediwebdude (Nov 30, 2008)

48dodge said:


> I wonder if people are going to have a march celebrating this BK robber like they did the cop killer.


That whole Oakland incident of cheering on the cop killer is proof that evolution has kicked into reverse for some people.


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## Razorback58 (Mar 20, 2009)

Geez, this kid sounds like a real winner! It was probably only a matter of time before he actually killed someone. By him turning his gun on the CCW shows that he was capable of it. I hate to hear about anyone being killed, but it sounds like it was just a matter of time with this kid.


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