# M&P Pro sight picture question



## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Hello,

I'm a new M&P Pro owner. The sight alignment picture is new to me, and I have some questions:

EDIT: M&P Pro 5" model

My instinct (coming from Sigs) is to drop the front sight into the crease of the rear -- or, more simply, to align the top of the front post with the top of the rear notch.

You know... The standard front/rear alignment picture.

Like this: (* is the fiber dot ... sitting just inside the rear notch)

__'''''''''''__
....\_*_/....

This gives a low POI.

If I "float" the FS optic just *over* the top edge of the rear sight, my POA equals my POI.
So, more like this (• is the fiber dot ... Note that it is "floating" over the rear edge)

__'''''•'''''__
....\___/

I'm guessing that I just have "combat hold" drilled into me.

Do other Pro owners use a similar hold?
This kind of alignment is difficult for me to hit quickly. It requires concentration.

I suppose swapping in a shorter front sight is an option?

Thoughts?
Experiences?
Advice?

Cheers-
Jim

(Loving the gun, btw)

Pic... Using that "candle flame" hold, offhand at 10 yards
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wgvnzqjux858rv/Photo Jan 02, 5 19 13 PM.jpg


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I own an M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" barrel and shoot it often. It has over 4000 rounds through it to date. I would suggest that you ignore the front sight dot and concentrate on the standard patridge sight alignment. This means to set the front blade in the center of the rear notch with its top equal to the top of the two rear notch "towers".

A Sight Aid for New Shooters - Pic - AR15.Com Archive

I find that with my M&P 9 Pro, the aiming point is intersected with the front blade and not on balanced on top of it. In other words it shoots to point of aim.


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Clarification on my rough ASCII-art drawings: POI=POA when the top edge of the rear sight _divides the front dot in half_. This "floating" of the front sight is a PITA sight picture for me to hit quickly.

My hard wired inclination is to align the top of the front blade with the top of the rear blade, as one would do with a typical 3-dot sight system. If I use this sight alignment with my M&P 5", it will produces a low POI (below the front bead). To get the expected POI, I'm breaking the traditional sight alignment and _splitting the bead_ with the top edge of the rear sights. Again, PITA hold.

I intend to use this gun for range and IDPA. I have night sights and a shorter barrel on my carry.
What's the advice here? Get used to the picture or buy a shorter front?

Cheers-


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The top two halves of the rear sight align with the top of the front blade to produce a sight picture that looks like this (Sight Image 2);

https://www.google.com/search?q=sig...pistol-training.com%2Farchives%2F1361;453;221

This is how my M&P 9 Pro's sights look when I shoot. Have you altered the gun from the factory setup? Personally I don't like to "balance the pumpkin" on the top of the front sight blade while it is centered in the rear notch. I much prefer what I showed above. If you align your sights like this, where does your round hit on the target? (HINT: start from a rest at a short distance like 15 feet and see where it's printing).


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with SB above, the 6 O' clock hold or "pumpkin on a post" sight picture is not how most handguns are designed to be used. 







The dots are used to ensure your front and rear are properly aligned... once aligned you intersect or "halve" the intended target with the front sight (while aligned with the rear) while pressing the trigger to the rear. The dots are not really used to determine POI... the top of a correctly aligned front sight is.







Another useful image.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> Agree with SB above, the 6 O' clock hold or "pumpkin on a post" sight picture is not how most handguns are designed to be used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right. When I shoot my M&P (this includes my other handguns as well but the OP is concerned with his M&P), I do as your example clearly shows. I last shot my M&P 9 Pro yesterday morning, by the way. As for the dots on the front and rear sights, I don't concentrate on them at all when I line up for a shot. I use the patridge sights as they were intended to be used. Frankly, I don't even see the dots when I do my drills.

I go every two weeks with a neighbor friend to a very modern range (NRA headquarters range) and we go through a number of drills. We never use conventional targets but rather paper plates (2 different sizes), index cards (2 different sizes), and copy paper on which we draw numbered shapes. Yesterday we were concentrating on strong hand/weak hand drills, draw and fire against multiple targets (simulates multiple assailants) on flipping targets, and some quick shots from low ready on flipping targets (2 shots in two seconds). We even play a game or two of tic-tac-toe just to keep things fun. And it was fun as usual and very worthwhile. We never punch paper in the normal sense... we always make up drills and test our abilities under varying conditions and situations. The NRA range is the only one I know of in the area that allows draw and fire exercises. Next trip we are going to do draw and fire drills on an advancing target. Should be good.

Oh, and nearly all of my work yesterday was with my M&P 9 Pro Series 4.25" barrel.


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Let me start this thread again. My ASCII pictures weren't very useful.

Here's a bit of background:
I'm a competitive shooter, with a background on Sig (226/229/x-five).
On a good day, I can shoot a quarter size group at 7 yards. And, I can certainly produce small groups with my new M&P. My issue is the vertical location of the group - and the required alignment picture that puts the group where I want it.

I am brand new to M&P, and I'm new to the Novak sights. My question is about correct sight alignment, (rear relationship to front, such that POA=POI). I shoot with a combat hold.

I found a picture that perfectly illustrates the alignment which gives me a POI behind the front sight

This:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3cvy2ie6wqmy9ot/Photo Jan 08, 2 17 41 AM.png

I consider that hold to be "floating" the bead. My instinct is to drop it lower, and my split times are trending up, as I "intentionally" push out with this (foreign) alignment picture. (Grumble)

To be ultra-clear:
When I use this front/rear alignment picture, _my POI is where I expect it to be_.

My question is for other Pro owners, with the same sight config.
Is this the picture that you use? Has anyone dropped to a shorter post?

One minor distinction: I'm asking about the M&P Pro sight alignment picture, not really the "sight picture". (I was sloppy with my original question). So, to be clear, sight/target alighment isn't included in my question. I'm assuming that the POI is directly behind the fiber bead. (You don't need to show me how you hold on a bull)

If you own an M&P Pro with the same sights, I'm curious about your alignment picture.

Thanks-

PS: This is the alignment that comes "automatically" to me, but on my M&P Pro, this will put POI below my POA.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ar6fl2k2d63f3r/Photo Dec 01, 11 33 28 AM.jpg

Here's the first alignment picture (the one that gives me the POI I want), all zoomed in and stuff

https://www.dropbox.com/s/adurs5oys41zbbf/Photo Jan 08, 9 11 22 PM.png


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Of minor interest...

Here's a GLOCK with a fiber front, showing the exact same alignment picture
(The top line of the rear "bisects" the fiber bead)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6csr8nqrdqruh6e/Photo May 02, 12 35 06 AM.jpg

On my M&P Pro, this is the exact alignment picture that gives me POI where I expect it to be.

Comments welcome-


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

FullHouse said:


> Let me start this thread again. My ASCII pictures weren't very useful.
> 
> Here's a bit of background:
> I'm a competitive shooter, with a background on Sig (226/229/x-five).
> ...


Who said, "ignore the front sight"? Certainly not I. The first rule is to concentrate on that front sight so you have to know I didn't say nor did I infer that anyone should "ignore the front sight". Just wanted to clear that one up.

Good that you did clarify things but first off, our M&P 9 Pros do not have the same sights. Mine is the 4.25" barrel version which comes with a Novak rear and a night sight in front (think trijicon). My sight picture is virtually exactly like your link here;

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ar6fl2k2d63f3r/Photo Dec 01, 11 33 28 AM.jpg

I ignore the dots on both the front and the rear sights, preferring to concentrate on the patridge sight alingment as you see in your supplied link. Your Pro has the longer barrel, thus the fiber optic front sight. I am not familiar with that setup having never handled or first one so I don't know where the POI is going to be. But is should be easy to determine that at a range. I do have a .22LR target pistol that has a fiber optic front sight and I have adjusted those sights to mimic what I am accustomed to with my other pistols. Yes I know the sights on the M&P are not adjustable for elevation.

Maybe someone who has some experience with a 5" Pro will chime in to help you with your questions.


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Interesting. Thanks for that reply. So, the fiber sight that you modified... Did getting your desired POI require an alignment picture similar to my example? After finding that GLOCK image, I'm curious if that "cut the bead" picture is common to specific sight configs. My question feels like it is moving away from "M&P Pro" and towards the particulars of the Novak sights that came on the gun.

And apologizes for not specifying the 5" (comp) model.
Any other 5" Pro owners care to weigh in? (Or anyone working with a similar sight alignment picture...)

Thanks! Enjoying this forum!


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Oh, and



SouthernBoy said:


> "I would suggest that you ignore the front sight dot and concentrate on the standard patridge sight alignment."


... sounded a lot like "_ignore the front sight_"

But, I get what you were saying now. Something like: "Ignore the dot, and align the post". Good advice! (Normally). But, as you can see from my pictures, aligning-posts is *exactly* what I'm trained to do, and _un-aligning_ them is the part that feels foreign.

But... as I said, I'm getting more accustomed to it.
It's possible to train-to-anything. The question is if it's an advisable modification.

I'm probably not going to adjust, but I'm really curious to hear other opinions on the Novak fiber alignment picture that I referenced above. The more passionate that you feel, the more interested I am in hearing your reasons.

There is no right answers, but there are good opinions.
And I want to hear 'em

Cheers-


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> My sight picture is virtually exactly like your link here;
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ar6fl2k2d63f3r/Photo Dec 01, 11 33 28 AM.jpg
> 
> I ignore the dots on both the front and the rear sights, preferring to concentrate on the patridge sight alingment as you see in your supplied link.


EXACTLY man.

That's the alignment picture that I know and love.
All my Sigs (or, rather, the sights on my Sigs) shoot POA/POI with that picture.

What would you do with a 5" gun, and the alignment pic that I supplied?
Would you drop the front optic a tad?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

FullHouse said:


> Interesting. Thanks for that reply. So, the fiber sight that you modified... Did getting your desired POI require an alignment picture similar to my example? After finding that GLOCK image, I'm curious if that "cut the bead" picture is common to specific sight configs. My question feels like it is moving away from "M&P Pro" and towards the particulars of the Novak sights that came on the gun.
> 
> And apologizes for not specifying the 5" (comp) model.
> Any other 5" Pro owners care to weigh in? (Or anyone working with a similar sight alignment picture...)
> ...


I didn't modify the fiber optic front sight on my .22LR target pistol, I adjusted the sights (the gun has a fully adjustable rear sight).

I own a mess of Glocks, gen3's and gen4's. On six of them, I have installed Trijicon night sights. These have the three dot arrangement. On all of these guns, my sight alignment is the typical patridge picture. I do not have the rear sight dissect the front sight bead. That would cause the gun to shoot high.

Since you are a competitive shooter you may want to try this with your M&P. Use a 9" paper place and put a one inch orange-red dot in the center. Shooting from a rest at 12-15 feet, use the standard patridge sight alignment picture with the front blade dissecting that dot and fire a group just to see that all of your shots are clustering around the same hole. Then put up another plate and do the same thing again only this time, after every shot see where those hits are landing. Now try all of this again with the dot balanced on top of the front blade. Make sure you keep your sight picture consistent and do not raise or lower that front blade in the rear notch. This should tell you where and how your gun is hitting.

Once you have determined how it's printing, move that target further out until you can consistently print as your sights show.

This is what I do with new guns when they are not printing as I am accustomed to seeing.... or new sights that seem to not be working right for me.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

FullHouse said:


> EXACTLY man.
> 
> That's the alignment picture that I know and love.
> All my Sigs (or, rather, the sights on my Sigs) shoot POA/POI with that picture.
> ...


If those sights are box stock from the factory for your M&P, they should be no different that what you and I are used to when we shoot. If I had to raise that front sight to force the gun to hit as I want it to, then I would suspect something is really wrong with the sights. There are all sorts of sights on the market promising this or that with strange and unusual configurations and I'm sure you've seen them. I like the basic patridge sight arrangement. It's been around for decades and has proven itself to be top drawer for serious shooters. Your sights should align in the basic picture that you and I know well. And when so aligned, your hits should go where they are supposed to go; POA/POI. If not and we've done our job, something is screwy with those sights. You should not have to cut the front sight dot with the top of the rear sight notch sides in order for a bullet to go where you want it to go.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

FullHouse said:


> But, I get what you were saying now. Something like: "Ignore the dot, and align the post". Good advice! (Normally). But, as you can see from my pictures, aligning-posts is *exactly* what I'm trained to do, and _un-aligning_ them is the part that feels foreign.


Yep, we think alike for sure with this. The only time I do not ignore those dots is when aiming in the dark. Then I see lightly glowing small green dots. This is not something I do often (actually seldom) but since you can't really see the black part of the sights at night, this is your only salvation for a sight picture of any kind. When I shoot at the range, those dots just don't register in my mind... the rest of the sights do in the usual alignment with focus on the front sight.


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## CharlieW (Feb 2, 2011)

I have had the same sighting problem with my M&P 5inch Pro model that the OP describes, and it was improved by fitting a shorter front sight.


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

CharlieW said:


> I have had the same sighting problem with my M&P 5inch Pro model that the OP describes, and it was improved by fitting a shorter front sight.


Do you happen to know the hight of your replacement?
It seems that other owners are putting on 0.160 (factory is 0.180)

See:
M&P PRO 5inch with .160 Front Sight - MP-Pistol Forum


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## FullHouse (Dec 16, 2013)

Also (of interest) 0.160 is the factory OEM sight hight on the standard M&P 9.

After doing some more google work, I've found other competitive shooters are mostly swapping to 0.170 or 0.160 on their 5 inch models.

That decision is more about "center of the bead" impact (0.170) Vs. "top of the blade" impact (0.160)

For clarity: In ALL of these configurations, we are assuming front post is height-aligned with rear.

I'm leaning towards the 0.160 replacement.
I like a height-aligned picture with impact at the top of the blade.

I refuse to buy adjustable rears. Once I have the configuration I like, I want it to be IN STONE ... with no opportunity for "tweaking" at the range. Once I have my guns zeroed, I'm done making changes. Adjustable always sounds good in theory, but - in practice - I want the gun "iron locked" into position. Period.


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