# Firearms Safety



## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

Which, in your opinion, is the most important firearms safety? Why?

My vote goes to the Brain/Mindset being the most important safety, while handling a firearm. My definition for Brain/Mindset is keeping your mind clear and focused while firing, so as not to do something you will later regret. Also, having the situational awareness to notice where people are, in relation to you and your muzzle. I feel that no matter your skill-level, or the amount of safeties on your firearm, if you don't exercise good judgement/thinking, you are setting yourself up for a potentially unsafe shooting experience.

I was recently told that this opinion is very wrong and that I will soon shoot myself in the foot for thinking this way... I'm just wondering what everyone else on the forum thinks. 

If I missed a better safety please let me know.


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## DWARREN123 (May 11, 2006)

The one between the ears and behind the eyes is the most important in my opinion. :mrgreen:


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

as all guns are safe UNTIL they are in contact with a human, it stands to reason that the HUMAN is the unsafe element. therefore the human action or inaction causes the unsafe condition ....

a loaded gun can sit on a table for 100 years and be safe for the entire time if no one is around it. same gun sitting on a table for 10 seconds can be unsafe if touched by a human


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

I chose the last option. Guns are not safe. Period.


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

Guns are very dangerous. That's why I carry it in the first place. I know a very highly skilled man who is limping right now because another highly skilled team mate shot him in the knee unloading a pistol. The odds are in your favor though if you train with adult supervision. That's one nice thing about shooting competitively, you will be watched by everyone who is waiting to shoot and the RO and continually corrected. Accidents will happen though. probably when you are mentally and physically exhausted. My last negligent discharge happened then but thank God I was habitually pointing it in a safe direction. That was many years ago.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

is anything safe? what is the definition of safe? how does a gun rate among other unsafe items?


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

2007 firearms deaths in the US : 31,224 (includes over 17,300 suicides)
2007 automobile deaths in the US: 41,059

so automobiles were 31% more dangerous than guns in 2007 and yet we expose our children to them daily..... we dont stop our children from playing with toy cars..... we dont nut up if our kid touches the car in the driveway....

we have a PERCEPTION about what is safe and what is not .... i fear that as a society , perception is what we use to make up our minds, not reality


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## ponzer04 (Oct 23, 2011)

no. less potential for danger than a wiffle ball bat. rank 34.

and the next post... Good point


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

I guess that's why people like us don't mind living in a free society with all it's risks. I know that once I was conceived in my mother's womb that I was at risk and will be until I'm dead. I think it's actually a good idea to ride my motorcycle to work on the freeway (only 4 days a week, I'm too old to enjoy working full time any longer), hunt and kill elk at high altitude ( got two this year and packed them out myself), and get into fistfights with men 1/3 my age. You are only truly free if you don't fear death. It's going to happen anyhow. In my 70's I may slow down a bit though.


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

rgrundy said:


> ...and get into fistfights with men 1/3 my age.


Me too.

Eight-year-olds. :numbchuck:


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Holly said:


> Me too.
> 
> Eight-year-olds. :numbchuck:


:anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol:
Give the lady the full 10 points!

While I agree with Ted (of course, since we seem to be the same mind in two bodies) that all guns are unsafe, I chose "Brain/Mindset" anyway.
My belief is that the proper use of the brain can overcome inherent safety issues, and can even render an unsafe object at least temporarily safe.

No safety lever will place itself "on." No safety lever will switch itself to "off." Guns don't fire themselves.
I carry, 24/7, a pistol that has absolutely no safety device on it anywhere. Nevertheless, in my pocket or in my hand, it is perfectly safe. That's because my brain is always engaged, as a matter of habit.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

Brain/mindset has to be safest.... people are supposed to be able to reason. Some folks, along with guns cannot reason.


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think the poll and the question is very well formed. 
Firearms are weapons, their function is dangerous. 
And, of course, the operator is in charge of the safe operation of the weapon and thus his mindset/training/discipline is the main ingredient in safe possession and use. 

No gun is safe in the hands of an idiot or a drunk or a mentally ill person or a violent criminal. 

It is a good idea here to repeat the four universal rules of gun safety:
- Always treat the gun as though it is loaded;
- Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire;
- Never point the muzzle of the gun at something you are not prepared to destroy;
- Be aware of the target and what is beyond it.

However, I think where the poll-creator was going was....everything else being even....which types of handgun safeties are better?

The safest gun is one that has no magazine loaded and no bullet in the chamber;
Almost equally safe is one that has a magazine but none in the chamber;
Slightly Less safe is a gun in a holster that protects the trigger with the safety ON. 
When in your hands:
Slightly Less safe is a DA/SA gun one that has a bullet in the chamber and is decocked, and a manual safety ON.
Slightly Less safe is a DA/SA or striker-fired gun that has a bullet in the chamber, and is cocked and has a manual safety ON;
Slightly Less safe is a striker-fired gun that is cocked that has a bullet in the chamber and has no manual safety, but a trigger and/or grip safety;
Slightly Less safe is a striker-fired gun that is cocked and has a bullet in the chamber and has no manual safety (or safety is OFF) but a long DA trigger pull;
Slightly Less safe is a striker-fired gun that is cocked and has a bullet in the chamber and has no manual safety(or safety is OFF) and a short, easy DA trigger;
Slightly Less safe is a DA/SA gun that has a bullet in the chamber, is cocked, and the safety is OFF. 

I am acutely aware of the gun and the trigger when the gun is in my hands and my manual safety is OFF and there is a round in the chamber. I am much less concerned about the safety of the gun when it is holstered on my hip and the safety is ON. 

There may be others who have different opinions about which is "slightly less safe" but this is just my humble opinion. I hope this gets to the essence of the poll-question.
CC


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> .....Firearms are weapons, their function is dangerous....


firearms are a tool.... a machine , to be exact. their purpose is to make a lead ball fly from the end of the barrel and hit what we are aiming at.

it BECOMES a weapon IF we humans use it to harm or threaten other living things.... just the same as a steak knife BECOMES a weapon IF we try to rob a bank with it or a jack hammer BECOMES a weapon IF we try to take someones leg off with it.

there is no inherent danger in a tool or machine or a rock or a door or pine tree UNLESS we decide to use it for harm or in a unsafe manner.

we give the things we fear or do not understand some measure of supernatural power that they do not have... if we use our brains more , we fear less


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> firearms are a tool.... a machine , to be exact. their purpose is to make a lead ball fly from the end of the barrel and hit what we are aiming at.
> 
> it BECOMES a weapon IF we humans use it to harm or threaten other living things.... just the same as a steak knife BECOMES a weapon IF we try to rob a bank with it or a jack hammer BECOMES a weapon IF we try to take someones leg off with it.
> 
> ...


BINGO! We have a winner! :smt023


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> firearms are a tool.... a machine , to be exact. their purpose is to make a lead ball fly from the end of the barrel and hit what we are aiming at. it BECOMES a weapon IF we humans use it to harm or threaten other living things.... just the same as a steak knife BECOMES a weapon IF we try to rob a bank with it or a jack hammer BECOMES a weapon IF we try to take someones leg off with it. there is no inherent danger in a tool or machine or a rock or a door or pine tree UNLESS we decide to use it for harm or in a unsafe manner. we give the things we fear or do not understand some measure of supernatural power that they do not have... if we use our brains more , we fear less


I never said firearms have supernatural power. 
Merriam-webster defines it as a weapon:
Firearm - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Free dictionary defines it as a weapon.
firearm - definition of firearm by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
firearm [ˈfaɪərˌɑːm]n (Military / Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) a weapon, esp a portable gun or pistol, from which a projectile can be discharged by an explosion caused by igniting gunpowder, etc.
http://www.cde.state.co.us/cdeprevention/download/pdf/FirearmDefinitions.pdf

18 USC 921(a)(3) defines a firearm as:
Any weapon (including a starter gun) that expels a projectile by the action of an explosive 
The frame or receiver of any such weapon 
Firearm mufflers and silencers 
Destructive devices

A FIREARM IS A WEAPON.

Ted, of all the things in my posting you could have taken issue with or responded in a way that reinforced safety, you try to redefine the english language?
CC


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> .....A FIREARM IS A WEAPON.
> 
> Ted, of all the things in my posting you could have taken issue with or responded in a way that reinforced safety, you try to redefine the english language?
> CC


no redefining here....

WEAPON 
A weapon is a tool or instrument used with the aim of causing damage or harm (either physical or mental) to living beings or artificial structures or systems.

so a weapon IS a tool, and its a weapon when used for damaging or harming, LIKE I STATED.... a firearm CAN be a weapon but is not always a weapon.

i am not redefining the english language, i am using it.


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

Ruel-1 Putting safety first,The way pistol & rifle safety is set up. Then there is no way anyone can get hurt or killed. Individual *safety-*Pledge to make safety first. Just like if your on the range,Everyone is a safety officer. If their is something you don't know,When your on the range.Just ask the range officers (R.O.),They are there to help.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

:watching:


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

:smt023


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

This page from CMP,Has some Important Safety Tips...:smt1099And for you new shooters on here,Their are a lot of good people on here,That know a lot about firearms.So your on the best forum on the web. Your in good hands.:smt033

Safety


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

Interesting changes to gun syntax:

Toolchest=gunsafe;
Toolbox=portable handgun safe;
Toolbelt=gun holster;
Tool bag=Range Bag;
Powertool=semi-automatic gun;
handtool=single shot gun;
rotary tool=revolver;
air tools=airsoft gun;
safety goggles=shooting glasses;
safety vest=concealment;
cutting tool=combat knife;
impact tool=full automatic gun;
multitool=multi-barrel gun;

You get the idea...

Firearms are weapons.
CC


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> Interesting changes to gun syntax:
> 
> Toolchest=gunsafe;
> Toolbox=portable handgun safe;
> ...


rocks are weapons too..... quarry = ammo dump


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sticks can also be used as weapons. Following Ted's unassailable logic, a forest can be seen as a weapons factory.
A kitchen, then, is an arsenal.
Assault vehicles are to be found in your garage.
Bedrooms are repositories of strangulation devices.
Shall I go on, Mr. Claxton?

Danger is not endemic to any object. Any object, no matter how innocent its purpose, can easily be converted into a weapon.
A "weapon," therefore, is not in the eye of the beholder, but rather in the hand, and mind, of the user.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Sticks can also be used as weapons. Following Ted's unassailable logic, a forest can be seen as a weapons factory.
> A kitchen, then, is an arsenal.
> Assault vehicles are to be found in your garage.
> Bedrooms are repositories of strangulation devices.
> ...


a very wise woman once wrote:

Any tool is a weapon _*IF*_ you hold it right.

Ani DiFranco

she has an amazing grasp of reality , and some cant even grasp the obvious.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Steve... dangerous or deadly are terms used to define the proximity of a human ( or item of value to a human) to a situation that puts said human or item at risk..... it is NOT inherant, but relative to the probability of said risk happening.

dioxin is toxic as in inherent property, a constant.... but its not deadly or dangerous even unless we humans contact it.


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

A licorice rope is dangerous... in the hands of a three-year-old. I now have a licorice welt!


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Holly said:


> A licorice rope is dangerous... in the hands of a three-year-old. I now have a licorice welt!


but in the package, it is not dangerous, just inherently nasty!


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## sgms (Jun 2, 2010)

So is the object (stick, rock, knife, gun, ect. ect.) dangerous? Or is it the individual using the object that is dangerous? Seem to me, even from what I am reading here, that these "weapons" are just objects, and while all have the potential to dangerous it takes a human, through lack of foresight and use of a few basic mental guidelines or with intent to harm to actually cause any of these things to do anything at all.


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

sgms said:


> So is the object (stick, rock, knife, gun, ect. ect.) dangerous? Or is it the individual using the object that is dangerous? Seem to me, even from what I am reading here, that these "weapons" are just objects, and while all have the potential to dangerous it takes a human, through lack of foresight and use of a few basic mental guidelines or with intent to harm to actually cause any of these things to do anything at all.


Little kid picks up handgun and shoots dad....was it the unsafe kid or the unsafe gun?...
Answer, the gun was unsafe for the kid to hold. 
If the kid would have unloaded the firearm the shooting wouldn't have happened. If the kid had the safety ON or a gun with a safety and it was ON, the shooting would have been less likely. Oh, that's right...its the kids fault! Look at all the other adults with negligent discharges....

The point here is that loaded firearms are dangerous...AND it takes a properly trained responsible adult to know how to handle them safely. Second point is that If ALL THINGS ARE EVEN....different guns are safer than others. 
Firearm Negligence - YouTube
CC


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> Little kid picks up handgun and shoots dad....was it the unsafe kid or the unsafe gun?...
> Answer, the gun was unsafe for the kid to hold.
> If the kid would have unloaded the firearm the shooting wouldn't have happened. If the kid had the safety ON or a gun with a safety and it was ON, the shooting would have been less likely. Oh, that's right...its the kids fault! Look at all the other adults with negligent discharges....
> 
> ...


seriously??? the GUN did it? the GUN? unreal.....


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## cclaxton (Jul 10, 2011)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> seriously??? the GUN did it? the GUN? unreal.....


Here is what I wrote: "the gun was unsafe for the kid to hold."
Firearms are inherently dangerous and the kid proved it. 
CC


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i just unloaded every gun in my safe before they killed someone..... thank god i got to them in time, i think they were hatching a plot.

in the morning i will dull all of my kitchen knives, take the chain off the chainsaw and run my louisville slugger thru the wood chipper. tomorrow my neighborhood will be just that much safer.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> Here is what I wrote: "the gun was unsafe for the kid to hold."
> Firearms are inherently dangerous and the kid proved it.
> CC


thought the kid was dangerous and proved it....


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

What I got from these last few posts is that PARENTS are unsafe.


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

cclaxton said:


> Little kid picks up handgun and shoots dad....was it the unsafe kid or the unsafe gun?...
> Answer, the gun was unsafe for the kid to hold.
> If the kid would have unloaded the firearm the shooting wouldn't have happened. If the kid had the safety ON or a gun with a safety and it was ON, the shooting would have been less likely. Oh, that's right...its the kids fault! Look at all the other adults with negligent discharges....
> 
> ...


We have a weekly steel shoot open to the public and you are not allowed to have your finger on the trigger unless you are actually shooting. It must be outside the trigger guard when moving or reloading. You would not believe how many highly trained people including LEOs are warned every week about this one infraction. It surprises me that more people are not hurt with firearms. I'm going to the Western States Singlestack Championship this weekend and they won't warn you. You just get DQ'd and cannot shoot anymore on the course. Wish me luck. When my arthritis acts up (like when I'm taking a pounding from 200 power 45's in my 1911) my fingers tend to curl in so it will be a challenge as I run from target to target.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

It's interesting how rules change.

Long ago, when I was involved in IPSC, nobody cared where your trigger finger was, while you were moving or otherwise. But if you had a negligent discharge, you were instantly disqualified.



Holly said:


> What I got from these last few posts is that PARENTS are unsafe.


Yeah. Truth!
Instead of licensing guns, people should have to pass a test, and be licensed, to be allowed to make children.
Further, divorce should be easy, but getting married should be difficult.


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## Holly (Oct 15, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yeah. Truth!
> Instead of licensing guns, people should have to pass a test, and be licensed, to be allowed to make children.
> Further, divorce should be easy, but getting married should be difficult.


Agreed.


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> It's interesting how rules change.
> 
> Long ago, when I was involved in IPSC, nobody cared where your trigger finger was, while you were moving or otherwise. But if you had a negligent discharge, you were instantly disqualified.


In the USPSA rulebook under sections 10.5.8 and 10.5.9, 10.5.10 and 8.5.1 . There's lots of rules now for safety.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

The brain is your ultimate safety........or "keep your booger picker off the boom switch till you're ready to shoot"


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

Had a very dangerous thing happen at the shoot yesterday. My 1911 went full auto during the competition. Good thing I knew enough just to bear down and hang on (191.9 power factor!). Got DQ'd until the onsite gunsmith fixed it and gave me a note for the Match Director. They'll let me finish the shoot today. This is a Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 and has is completely stock. Never had any trigger work done on it and has had few rounds through it. The trigger sure is sweet now. Got a trigger job for free. Need to wash my shorts though. You never know when a mechanical device will fail so some training is necessary. BTW the "Supersquad" (all us old farts) got a last minute entry added. J.J. Racazza is shooting with us. Great young man and lots of fun to watch on the courses. I'll get some video today.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> rocks are weapons too..... quarry = ammo dump


:smt180


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

This has been entertaining.I think guns are like any inanimate object,they can't be dangerous for the most part.You need 2 things to make a gun dangerous,a brain and muscles-the kid in the scenario proves that.If you use a gun,you learn safety,how the gun operates,ballistics at least to the point things get broke when shot,and as much on top of that you can.Then you train your muscles into grip,finger press,etc.The most important muscle is the trigger finger,you must teach it to instinctively know what to do while you are concentrating on more important matters like a threat,backstop,an ambush,yada yada.An educated brain and muscles now lessens the danger to willful use of the object.Very few discharges happen without physically pulling the trigger.

Here's controversy.I've had the safety snick off a few 1911s carrying before,condition 0.Most people freak,I saw that I needed to retension it,no biggie.How is it unsafe if it can sit there forever and not go off?The triggerguard is covered,the trigger can't move because of the grip safety,and if the sear just happened to snap the FP safety prevents a discharge.

Conversely,I'd never carry a Glock.Where's the safety?In the friggin trigger.Serpas have proven the 'safe action' they have on reholsters with no human trigger contact.That can't happen on my 1911 because my trigger is locked from debris moving it.Debris in a Serpa can also lock your gun in it if anyone is considering one,severe use isn't where they're good.

Just my opinion and things to ponder out of mainstream thinking.


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## SteveC (Apr 27, 2012)

We can certainly twist this subject around a few dozen ways, but the basic question remains and it's good to have so many folks thinking about it. Sure a gun can't cause any harm on the scap heap, but that's not a very useful consideration since it is not an option any one of us is going to take up. Safety mechanisms have their place and I'm sure every one of them has prevented some bad stuff. They won't prevent bad things from happening, tho, if the user doesn't have the mindset of respect for a weapon and the mental discipline for proper handling ALL THE TIME.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

I have to chuckle a little reading through the semantics of these debates. They make me think that maybe we (gun owners) are a little defensive about calling a spade a spade. Of course, you and I know that the firearm will only do what it's "told", has no ill intent of its own, and is only "dangerous" to some degree when it's in someone's hand.

All of the Captain Obvious pronouncements aside, a firearm is a tool that was designed to be "dangerous"; to kill actually. Ignoring the 500# gorilla in the room seems silly to me. All other things equal, an average man with a handgun in his hand is more "dangerous" (intentionally or otherwise) than a man with a stick or a pen. It is that way by design, lest this be called the pointy stick forum. :smt033

Perhaps the question would be more precisely worded "Which safety mechanism is most effective in preventing AD/ND?" Short of any belief in magic, needling one another over "dangerous person with a handgun" or "dangerous handgun" seems pedantic. A firearm is a tool that is designed to be dangerous. 

OK, I have to go back through today's posts to see if anyone used "clip" inappropriately now, and chew them a new one... :anim_lol:


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## dman (May 14, 2012)

Treat every firearm as loaded , one in the chamber and ready to kill.Mind set is very , very , important but , in my crazy life ,
there are so many distractions I'm never sure of anything . when I set my pistol down and get some stupid question from my wife lets say , am I sure about anything ? No. I've seen some of the best make stupid mistakes because of distractions
so always assume it is ready to kill .


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## velo99 (May 21, 2012)

Mindset is everything. Been teaching my daughters to shoot. We have safety sessions before we shoot at the range. Procedure procedure procedure. We recently went from revolver to automatic and it was enlightening to see the misteps in procedure. Dropping the mag was the most skipped step in "safeing" the weapon. Safety systems should be standardized IMO.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

Safety is pretty well standardized....

1. Keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction
2. Keep your finger off the trigger, until you're ready to shoot
3. Keep firearms unloaded unless they're ready to use

Store your firearms so as to prevent unauthorized access....

:smt1099


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## velo99 (May 21, 2012)

Those are general safety measures. 
The mechanical aspects are what lead to inadvertent discharges. 
If one is unfamiliar with a weapon or the safety is in a unusual place,
people tend to be unsure of the condition of the weapon. 
Eventually the weapon has to be loaded and fired. 
That's when accidents occur. Standardization could at least reduce that chance.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

velo99 said:


> Those are general safety measures.
> The mechanical aspects are what lead to inadvertent discharges.
> If one is unfamiliar with a weapon or the safety is in a unusual place,
> people tend to be unsure of the condition of the weapon.
> ...


No sir, mechanical aspects do NOT lead to inadvertent discharges. Firearms do NOT fire unless interacted with by a human. When any firearm is interacted with by a human, the observance of those three rules will NOT allow a discharge resulting in injury. You can "what if" this to death, but if you implement rule #1, and ignore rules #2, and #3, nobody gets hurt. If you implement #2, and ignore #3, and #1, the gun won't fire. If you implement #3, and ignore #1, and #2, the gun won't fire.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, neither is ignorance of the function of any given weapon possessed by any individual.

I've taught those safety rules for many, many years. They work much better than any mechanical device.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Once again:
The most important safety device resides in your head, between your ears.


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## usmcj (Sep 23, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Once again:
> The most important safety device resides in your head, between your ears.


....and, once again....that's exactly where those three rules should reside, ready for instant recall....

simply my opinion, of course.....


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

usmcj said:


> ...that's exactly where those three rules should reside, ready for instant recall...


Yup. Exactly.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Another old thread worth a bump....


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

It's gotta be the brain.

An unsafe mindset does not make up for safeties on the actual gun. If you are unsafe, you are a danger no matter what


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