# 20 ga Spanish 2 trigger side by side ???



## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

I recently acquired a 20 ga Spanish 2 trigger side by side ultra light...It's missing the fore grip. I haven't had time to research it properly. The barrel is marked with F.S. No. 7636 Eidar-Spain 20 Ga magnum 20-76...Which leads me to believe it was made in the Eidar region where some of the finest Spanish guns were manufactured...As well as some that were not so great. Does anyone know anything about this gun ??? Is it possible to find a replacement fore grip? I'd like to use it for upland bird hunting, but, that will be impossible without a fore grip...Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!*
A picture would probably help.
On my Flickr:*Spanish | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
-SS


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

It's "Ei*b*ar," not "Eidar."

Sasha, where the heck do you come up with these?

I bet that any gunsmith worth his salt could fit a new fore-end to your gun.
At the same time, he could "survey" the gun's condition and shootability, including doing a pattern-and-spread check.
An awful lot of shotguns use the same for-end-iron system as your gun's, so finding something that fits couldn't be too hard. Take the gun to a gun show, and try fore-ends on it to see how close you can come. Then have a gunsmith properly fit the thing.

Fore-end-iron fittings are available, maybe from Brownells, and a new "splinter" fore-end could be made to fit the gun and the iron.
Since the fore-end iron is what holds the gun together when it's assembled, it wouldn't do to just make a piece of wood fit beneath the barrels, and then to add a screw or a wedge into the hanger attached to the barrels. You really do need a proper fore-end iron.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

I intercepted the Spanish ultra light 20 ga double AND
*a 20 ga Sauer & Sohn as they were on their way to the dump and acquired *them on the spot. Honest!
Both wrist grips with the cocking mechanisms attached had already been thrown away.*
It's so light and well balanced, *I'm dying to use the Spanish 20 at least once. There are no ejectors. It looks very similar to the Anson Deeley System schematic. We'll see what can be done for its repair. Thank you.
I'm interested in having a complete restoration done on the S&S and selling it. It's more than a bit much for me. It's stamped J P Sauer & Sohn Krupt-Laufftahl Serial # 332648 *16/65m/m. It's proof marked N Suhl 141 and has a waffen eagle on top of the N above Suhl. The Sauer also has a Monte Carlo stock and sling loops attached to the barrel and stock. Can you further enlighten me? *


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sasha said:


> ...I'm interested in having a complete restoration done on the S&S and selling it. It's more than a bit much for me. It's stamped J P Sauer & Sohn *Krupt*-*Laufftahl* Serial # 332648 **16/65m/m*. It's proof marked N Suhl 141 and has a *waffen eagle* on top of the N above Suhl. The Sauer also has a Monte Carlo stock and sling loops attached to the barrel and stock. Can you further enlighten me? *


I don't know very much about shotguns, and I don't have much in the way of reference materials about them.
Here's all I can offer:
1. It isn't "Krupt," but _Krup*p*_, the steel-making company.
2. It isn't "Laufftahl," but rather _Lauf*s*tahl_. It means "barrel steel": _lauf_ = "barrel"; _stahl_ = "steel."
3. Are you certain that it's a 20ga? The size marking makes me think that it's a 16ga.-16.65mm is about 0.66", and that's 16ga size.
4. That "waffen eagle" could be merely a proofmark...or it could be the Nazi _Waffenamt_ stamp. The former indicates merely that the gun has been judged safe to fire; the latter indicates that the gun is extremely valuable.

Can you supply photos of the entire gun, the breech end of its barrels, and all of its markings-especially the ones on the bottoms of its barrels?


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Lol. Thank you sincerely for correcting me. I'll post pictures as soon as possible. Won't be long. Thank you Steve.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Sasha*;
Here's some supplementary information:
1. Since _J.P. Sauer und Sohn_ is still in business, if you really want to restore that gun, you should contact them for parts-and maybe even the restoration work itself.
2. Since your Sauer gun is marked _Suhl_, it was made before the end of WW2 (well, it was made before 1951, anyway-see #4, below).
3. It might be Sauer's pre-war Model 60, which was made in 12, 16, and 20 gauges.
4. The "eagle-over-N" stamp proves that your gun was made after 1939, so it came into being between 1939 and 1945 (or 1951, of it was assembled from previously-made parts).

In 1951, Sauer moved from Suhl, in East Germany, to West Germany.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Couldn't find the right camera lens ... anyway, Thank You for the historic perspective. The history of this Sauer intrigues me. Pretty sure it's 16 now. Here is a photo, in its case, for better size comparison. I do value your 2 cents (by that I mean unsurpassed knowledge). It is on my Flickr. All the pictures of its markings are there as well. Perhaps your 'supplementary information' could find a definite through your eyes.
Side By Side - His and Hers | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*The Spanish Gun:*
1. The Spanish gun seems to have at least one barrel dent, on the bottom of its left barrel, near the breech. A gunsmith needs to look at that.
2. Yes, it's definitely Spanish, proofed in Eibar at some time after July of 1931. I haven't the foggiest idea who the maker might be, or when it was built.
3. It seems to be a 20ga, made for 3" shotshells, but I don't know for certain. (It's marked "20-76," which I believe means 20ga and 76mm-long shells.)
4. Hmmm...Three-inch shells...that makes me think that it could be a modern-made gun. Three-inch-long, 20ga shotshells, "Magnum"-size, are a pretty modern innovation.

*The Sauer Gun:*
1. The Sauer is a very-high-quality gun. Note that all of the screws in the receiver line up with each-other, the mark of expensive hand-work. It's got hand engraving, too.
2. The stock is _not_ a "monte-carlo." That's a typical German cheekpiece. The grip's checkering looks very fine, and there might be a trap-door in the grip-cap (and maybe in the butt-plate, too).
3. _Sicher_ means "safe." (The more proper term would be _gesichert_.) That button is the safety. It might be an "automatic" safety, in that it comes on as the gun is closed.
4. The gun was proofed in Suhl, and it was proofed after 1939 and before 1950. It's safe for smokeless-powder (modern) loads. It was probably made during the Nazi era.
5. It's 16ga, for 65mm-long (2.5") shells.

Cleaned-up and restored properly, the Sauer gun might be worth a couple of thousand dollars. It'd be worth having Sauer restore it, if they still do that sort of work.
You will need to find out whether or not it has been through a fire. Even in a "fireproof" safe, it would've been damaged. I am suspicious of the rust it has accumulated. (This is true of the Spanish gun, too.)


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Both came from west palm beach, rust could have accumulated from the salt spray in the air. I'll definitely have them both inspected for safety. The Spanish may or may not be modern. I don't feel that it is but, that is simply intuition. It is possible though. Highly plausible.
I am certainly contacting Sauer, by both handwritten letter and via Internet to inquire about restoration of the SS. *(It was the most mesmerizing of the two)*Yet, still, I'm hoping the two will be restored.
Thank you very much Steve for sharing your knowledge. I'm sure it won't be long until I have another one to consult you on. (Now, if you could only walk me through lacing around these rivets on this leather purse, lol)
Thank you again.
-Sasha


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

... just found out the maker of the Spanish. Francisco Farriugarte. Could be reasonably modern. I still like it though. (;


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sasha said:


> ...Now, if you could only walk me through lacing around these rivets on this leather purse, lol...
> Thank you again.
> -Sasha


For leatherwork consultation, you will have to invite Jean and me to dinner. :yawinkle:
After all, it's my (ex-)profession, and professional help doesn't come cheap. :smt083

Sorry, but I have no reference to Francisco Farriugarte.


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## Sasha (Apr 1, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> For leatherwork consultation, you will have to invite Jean and me to dinner. :yawinkle:
> After all, it's my (ex-)profession, and professional help doesn't come cheap. :smt083


Dinner for 4 and I'll tell you and Jean about my hide tanning operation. (; 
You are very helpful. :smt1099 Much appreciated.


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