# Fl Handgun Laws ?



## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Ok so I go to the gun shop today and in the future I'd like to buy another handgun but if I could get one brand new instead of through private sale since when I have the money I'l only be 20 so I asked him if my mother bought me the handgun of my choice for my birthday would it be a straw purchase ? 

He said yes it would be and got all paranoid like I was asking something shady. and he was like I cant get involved with that! If you never would've mentioned about your parent buying you a handgun and she just walked in and bought it, it would be fine but.... I can't go down for that !

So your telling me my mother can't buy a handgun and gift it to me so it would be mine even though I live in her household and would have access to it regardless? I can understand he needs to stay in his legal boundary's but seriously? 

Then I played it off dumb and said oh well I guess I'll have to pick it up off a stranger off armslist and he says oh well you have to be 21 ! I was like oh really ? Because FL law states its 18 all around for possession and ownership as long as its not through dealer. 

Then he gives me some speel about oh well you can't carry the gun in your vehicle unless your going to the range with it.

And I'm thinking really ? Because the Fl statue on vehicle carry clearly states an age right ? No it doesn't all it says is an enclosed container like a glove box or center console that doesn't have to be locked and it doesn't say gun has to be unloaded just not readily accessible.

So am I just young and dumb or did this guy not know his shit because I researched the laws and all of the stuff he said that didn't pertain to ffl was bs . What are my options? Either way I'll have my glock 41 in my hands legally when I get the $ just I'd prefer new so that's why I mention FFL.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Gun shops and box stores that sell firearms are notorious for misinformation. Generally speaking, they do tend to be right "most" of the time, but not 100%. 

I'm not familiar with FL. firearms laws, so I can't help you in that matter. I'm sure that someone will be along shortly that knows much more about FL. laws and will chime in.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Alright thank you sir Im just trying to get the facts to back myself up with.

after I finish going to school for what I'm going for I plan on getting certified to be a police officer so I like to do everything legal, I know through FFL its a fine line (straw purchase) but if im not a felon and able to legally own and posses firearms why can't I have my mother purchase me one and then gift it to me? It would save me from meeting some guy off arms list and I'd know I was getting what I wanted. I just don't want to get my mom in trouble but at the same time I feel like if my mother chooses to purchase a gun and give it to me that's her buisness and know one elses. I just don't get why that guy at the gun shop had to freak out and then tell me if I didn't describe to him my situation he'd be alright with me having my mom do a "straw purchase" 

It doesn't make sense to me, in my heart I know everything about this is legal but at the same time if I have to buy it off Joe schmo and not have to explain all of this bs federal law to my mother I will she knows I can legally own and possess since I'm over 18 but when she does background check and the question pops up are you the purchaser of this firearm .... I don't want to have to make her feel like she's committing a felony and have to explain to her that she's not. I feel like no one knows the laws I'm trying to look through atf website now so I have a credible source .


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

I wouldn't use the term "Straw Purchase" to describe your situation. A straw purchase is done when the intended owner cannot pass the background check... so another person who can pass the background acts as the purchaser with the intention of selling the firearm to the ineligible person (knowingly). Another reason is the intended owner dosen't want the firearm paperwork attached to them (for whatever reason) and has someone else make the purchase then does a transfer. 

Known also as the Gun Show Loophole, the Supreme Court recently rules these purchases/transfers as Illegal (June 2014).

What you want to do is completely legal (purchase a handgun from a private seller). You are legally able to purchase or be gifted a firearm from a private seller (AKA your mom) at 18. As long as you are not a felon or have something else that would prevent you from passing a background check, your good. Your mom isn't making the purchase because you are ineligible to own a handgun, it's just that your not old enough to purchase one from an FFL dealer. The big issue is lying on the purchase forms as this is considered Conspiracy. You should look into Florida law on gifting firearms.... I believe there is a part on the purchase form where the purchaser can check that they are purchasing the firearm as a gift for a 3rd party. You should research this topic more and possibly consult an attorney.

At 21 your able to make purchases through an FFL... so until then you'll have to go through your mom.

This is NOT legal advice and you should double check the laws of your state as I am not a resident of Florida.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

I only used the term straw purchase since that's what a "FFL" told me honestly I think he's just a helper since he sat there open carrying and didn't know the barrel lengths on the glock 21 and glock 41 lol anyways is there any statutes that say my mother is alright to purchase the gun for me since I have nothing that prohibits me from owning it ? 

Also since Florida doesn't have a firearms registry would the gun not technically be in my mothers name ? Or would I have to write up a bill of sale and do a private purchase/ gifting from my mother stating that im the owner of said firearm and my mother wouldn't be liable for me owning the gun ? I only ask this since my mother isn't a gun person (she'll go to range and shoot with me but she thinks guns can be scary) and she doesn't want "my gun" in her name. We used to live in Pennsylvania and I believe the purchasing of handguns was it was registered in the persons name so if anyone could elaborate on this it would be greatly appreciated.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Why don't you bring mom with you, put the gun in your name, use her cash gift.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

TAPnRACK said:


> I wouldn't use the term "Straw Purchase" to describe your situation. A straw purchase is done when the intended owner cannot pass the background check... so another person who can pass the background acts as the purchaser with the intention of selling the firearm to the ineligible person (knowingly). Another reason is the intended owner dosen't want the firearm paperwork attached to them (for whatever reason) and has someone else make the purchase then does a transfer.
> 
> Known also as the Gun Show Loophole, the Supreme Court recently rules these purchases/transfers as Illegal (June 2014).
> 
> ...


As to the form 4473 where my mom has to answer 11a

I was just going to tell her to put that she was the sole purchaser of the firearm in order to prevent the chance of having dealer believe what she's doing is illegal (straw purchase) and to prevent not being able to purchase the gun.

Either way I believe she will have to wait 3 days since she doesn't have her CCW but I say this since if she puts down she's the purchaser of gun it would still be legal since she would be the original owner and then she'd give it to me.

This gun has 5" barrel so its just for home defense and the range. I'm not going to carry it on me at all ever! only in my truck in my center console so its legal or when I'm going to range to practice


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Supreme Court | Abramski | Gun Control Act | Straw Purchase

"Lying to buy gun in place of a 3rd party is a felony even if the 3rd party would be lawful purchaser". I believe you are better off waiting until you are 21 years of age to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer/FFL at this point, especially after you've made your intentions known to the world. I agree with the FFL, if you're mother wished to buy the handgun for you as a gift w/o the discussion you made is one thing, but now? The question I now have is whether or not your mother wishes to purchase the handgun as a gift for you, or are you using her to circumvent the law?


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

On 11a there should be a line regarding the person being the transferee/purchaser legitimately making the purchase as a gift. I don't have copy of the 4473 form handy, lol... but I recall that being on there under the 11a section.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

pic said:


> Why don't you bring mom with you, put the gun in your name, use her cash gift.


Because federal law prohibits me from buying handgun from dealer since I'm under 21 so legally myself I can't buy it from store so my mother would have to for me but Florida state law says I can own and possess a handgun and ammo and carry it without a permit in my vehicle In an enclosed case like glove box or center cosole at 18 the only reason I'd be getting my mom involved is so I can get the gun new and not have to worry about the gun being stolen or used in a crime when I buy it off some random guy .


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

denner said:


> Supreme Court | Abramski | Gun Control Act | Straw Purchase


So if my mom buys the gun with the intent of gifting it to me by what the article said its not a straw purchase since she is considered the sole purchaser.

"Guns Intended as Gifts. In the government's view, an individual who buys a gun "with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person" is the gun's "true purchaser." The Government's position makes no exception for situations where the gift is specifically requested by the recipient (as gifts sometimes are). So long as no money changes hands, and no agency relationship is formed, between gifter and gifteee, the Act is concerned only with the man ["buyer"] at the counter."


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Mustang95 said:


> So if my mom buys the gun with the intent of gifting it to me by what the article said its not a straw purchase since she is considered the sole purchaser.
> 
> "Guns Intended as Gifts. In the government's view, an individual who buys a gun "with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person" is the gun's "true purchaser." The Government's position makes no exception for situations where the gift is specifically requested by the recipient (as gifts sometimes are). So long as no money changes hands, and no agency relationship is formed, between gifter and gifteee, the Act is concerned only with the man ["buyer"] at the counter."


I believe that to be correct! You may want to contact the FBI or ATF or an attorney or the Florida Attorney General for clarification. You want to be sure, for sure.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

denner said:


> Supreme Court | Abramski | Gun Control Act | Straw Purchase
> 
> "Lying to buy gun in place of a 3rd party is a felony even if the 3rd party would be lawful purchaser". I believe you are better off waiting until you are 21 years of age to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer/FFL at this point, especially after you've made your intentions known to the world. I agree with the FFL, if you're mother wished to buy the handgun for you as a gift w/o the discussion you made is one thing, but now? The question I now have is whether or not your mother wishes to purchase the handgun as a gift for you, or are you using her to circumvent the law?


I really don't need my mother to circumvent the law. It would be a gift, we already talked about it and regardless if its going to be a bunch of bull I'll just buy the gun from a private party and not have my intentions known to the world. I don't see what the big deal is here but regardless of what i think I want facts not he said she said anyways. I'll be 20 when I get the gun so its not like i just turned 18 and want my mom to buy me a handgun from an ffl as a birthday present to me . if its going to be a legal headache armslist it is


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Can I email atf or call and if so will this info be on their website ?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

I believe you can, and yes they both have a website.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Well that's Abramski I'm not a x cop buying a gun for my uncle with my police discount that I was no longer entitled to. I guess I'll just contact atf and put this to rest once and for all


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Mustang95 said:


> Well that's Abramski I'm not a x cop buying a gun for my uncle with my police discount that I was no longer entitled to. I guess I'll just contact atf and put this to rest once and for all


Yes, dissimilar, but just know for sure. And remember the paragraph you quoted is Justice Scalia's dissent, in which I'm fully in agreement, but a dissent nonetheless.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Alright so just sent my email to ATF
Hello I have a question or two regarding the purchase of a handgun from a licensed FFL dealer.

I live in the state of Florida and I talked to my mother about getting a handgun for my 20th birthday and she is alright with it as long as it is legal for her to buy me a handgun and give it to me as a gift.

since state law of owning and possession of a handgun and ammunition is 18? Is this legal or would it be a straw purchase?

I'm not trying to use my mother to get around federal laws because I can legally obtain the gun through a private party transaction with another Florida resident just I would prefer it be new with all the accessories and manuals.

I read an article about an x cop called abramski and what I got from the article was this:

"Guns Intended as Gifts. In the government's view, an individual who buys a gun "with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person" is the gun's "true purchaser." The Government's position makes no exception for situations where the gift is specifically requested by the recipient (as gifts sometimes are). So long as no money changes hands, and no agency relationship is formed, between gifter and gifteee, the Act is concerned only with the man ["buyer"] at the counter."

So if my mother is legally able to buy me a handgun as a gift to me would she be right in saying on the form 4473 question 11a that she is the true purchaser after reading the quoted text?

I don't want to get myself or my mother in trouble when I can legally purchase the gun myself from a non licensee legally.

If you could please message me back with the facts it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

You've done the right thing.

The people at BATFE have always treated me politely and with respect, and have always answered my questions carefully and correctly.
This even includes one case in which I thought that I had broken the law. (I hadn't, and it was a BATFE agent who told me not to worry.)


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> You've done the right thing.
> 
> The people at BATFE have always treated me politely and with respect, and have always answered my questions carefully and correctly.
> This even includes one case in which I thought that I had broken the law. (I hadn't, and it was a BATFE agent who told me not to worry.)


I'm hoping I get the same treatment as you did whether I get a positive reply or not, it isnt all important to me to a degree since regardless I'll still legally be able to get my Glock 41 just not by preferred means. Hopefully everything's ago and I have proof for my mother. In the end atleast I'll know the truth.


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## NGIB (Jun 28, 2008)

You will also find that many private sellers will not sell to folks under 21 - it's legal to do so but many will not. I see it all the time on the gun forums here in GA.

Federal law sets the age at 21 to buy from a dealer. There is no specific law covering "gift" purchases that I'm aware of. The 4473 asks specifically if you're purchasing the gun for yourself so Mom buying the gun for you is a VERY grey area. My 2 cents: find a private seller willing to deal with you or wait until you're legal...


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

I got an email from atf that was of no help . 
I also emailed my one FFL and asked him same thing I'll probably have to do private party I'm guessing but oh well maybe I'll call atf later today .

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB). It is the goal of FIPB to respond to requests from firearms industry members and the general public within 90 days of receipt. Although FIPB generally exceeds this goal, its ability to respond to such inquiries is impacted by a number of factors, such as available staffing resources, the sufficiency of information received from the requestor, existing precedence, necessary technical research, and any applicable legal review process.

In an effort to provide individuals with the most up-to-date information, ATF has compiled a list of the top 12 most frequently asked questions and provided answers to those questions: https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/0813-firearms-top-12-qas.pdf. Additional information may also be found on our website at: Firearms Industry | ATF.

Please review the Top 12 list of frequently asked questions. If your question is not addressed in the Top 12 Q&As FIPB will provide a response to your request within 90 days. If your inquiry pertains to licensing, NFA firearms, or importation of firearms, FIPB will forward it to the appropriate ATF Branch for response.

MARKING VARIANCE REQUESTS:

Marking variances may be submitted electronically (preferred method) to [email protected] or [email protected] or by fax at (202) 648-9601.

Any questions concerning the requests should be referred to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch at the above e-mail address, mailing address, or by telephone at (202) 648-7190.

Additionally, if you have questions in the future, please feel free to contact your local ATF office. A listing of the offices may be found at: http://www.atf.gov/contact/field. Please contact the following Branches if you have questions pertaining to:

· Federal firearms licensing, please contact the Federal Firearms Licensing Center at (866) 662-2750 or [email protected].

· National Firearms Act (NFA), please contact the ATF NFA Branch at (304) 616-4500 or [email protected].

· Importation of firearms, please contact the ATF Firearms & Explosives Imports Branch at (304) 616-4550 or [email protected].

· Firearms technical questions (to include firearms classifications), please contact the ATF Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) at (304) 616-4300 or [email protected].

Thank you for your inquiry and your cooperation.

ATF, Firearms Industry Programs Branch


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I strongly suggest that you send a snail-mail letter to your nearest BATFE field office (in the phone book, under US Government).

Snail-mail letters always get the clearest, most complete responses.

Otherwise, heed the instructions you've quoted from the BATFE website: "...If your question is not addressed in the Top 12 Q&As [tell us that, and] FIPB will provide a response to your request within 90 days..."


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

I'll look into that thanks Steve !

I wish my one FFL guy would email me back but guess he's busy.

I don't see how being gifted a handgun from my mother is illegal or straw purchase or anything my mom would be the true purchaser who decides to gift it to me for my birthday. If this was the case guys being their wives and children guns as gifts all commited a felony buy buying a gun and gifting it to a family member or friend like that one guy who posted on here said. The way I'm taking it is unless some thug comes up to you and says buy me this gun here's the cash and waits for you outside it wouldnt be a straw purchase. 

My mother gifted me a Winchester 1300 20 gauge youth model at age 11 I mean if you take everything word for word that's a straw purchase since I wasn't even old enough to have it or be in possession of it at that age but I did. Yea I'd tell my mother which gun I wanted but when you were younger and it was Christmas time you didn't say mom or dad id really like Lincoln logs for Christmas and sincr they knew you really wanted Lincoln logs they didn't end up buying it and giving it to you as a gift ?


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

I'll look into that thanks Steve !

I wish my one FFL guy would email me back but guess he's busy.

I don't see how being gifted a handgun from my mother is illegal or straw purchase or anything my mom would be the true purchaser who decides to gift it to me for my birthday. If this was the case guys being their wives and children guns as gifts all commited a felony buy buying a gun and gifting it to a family member or friend like that one guy who posted on here said. The way I'm taking it is unless some thug comes up to you and says buy me this gun here's the cash and waits for you outside it would be a legit straw purchase. 

My mother gifted me a Winchester 1300 20 gauge youth model at age 11 I mean if you take everything word for word that's a straw purchase since I wasn't even old enough to have it in possession at that age but I did.


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## Mustang95 (Oct 21, 2014)

Also an FFL selling to my mother wouldn't have to worry since once my mother would take possession of gun its hers and it would be a private party thing so she can gift it to me legally.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Read carefully under "Notices, Instructions, and Definitions", more specifically under Question 11a and you will find the answer.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Yup. Nice catch, *denner*.
*TAPnRACK* said that it was there, too, way in the beginning of this discussion.

There it is, on Page 4, in the explanation for question #11a.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Yup. Nice catch, *denner*.
> *TAPnRACK* said that it was there, too, way in the beginning of this discussion.
> 
> There it is, on Page 4, in the explanation for question #11a.


Thank's Steve, I took the lead from TapnRack.


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