# What exactly does the "United States Property" marking mean?



## LzChase (1 mo ago)

I ended up here after spotting this marking on a WW2 1911A1 on display in a museum. Truth to be told I could see that what they actually had there was an airsoft gun which is probably for the better, but it got me thinking about that marking, something I've never really payed attention to. I decided to turn to a forum dedicated to handguns to find an answer.

What exactly does it mean? My initial guess was that they were owned by the states themselves, but I also know thanks to American friends that lots of WW2 Era Colts with this exact marking have been and are still being sold as surplus. So what actually does it define? Does it mean it is illegal to export them/for them to be taken outside the US?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

It was a gun used by the US military at some point. Long time ago, the government would sell stuff off as surplus. They don't seem to do that with guns any longer.


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## LzChase (1 mo ago)

Shipwreck said:


> It was a gun used by the US military at some point. Long time ago, the government would sell stuff off as surplus. They don't seem to do that with guns any longer.


So only military issue Colts have this marking?
But what about the actual phrase? I heard stories of how a soldier bringing his service pistol home counted as stealing, and similarly of how a weapon labeled with the marking is not allowed to leave the US borders, and even seen one guy stating that it is "strictly illegal to own a weapon with this engraving outside the US, which make many collectors criminals", is there any truth in this? And if so, is that why the museum used an airsoft gun?


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

LzChase said:


> So only military issue Colts have this marking?
> But what about the actual phrase? I heard stories of how a soldier bringing his service pistol home counted as stealing, and similarly of how a weapon labeled with the marking is not allowed to leave the US borders, and even seen one guy stating that it is "strictly illegal to own a weapon with this engraving outside the US, which make many collectors criminals", is there any truth in this? And if so, is that why the museum used an airsoft gun?


I am not into antique weapons, so I can't answer your further questions. Maybe someone else here can help you


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

There is something called the ITAR you can research. It even forbids the discussion of certain military items on forums such as these. The last pistol sold to civilians I know of was the Colt M45A1. They put a x through the USMC roll mark before selling. There were a few that made it out with the roll mark unimpaired. They since replaced the USMC with M45A1 since the Marines no longer use them.


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## armoredman (Oct 14, 2021)

LzChase said:


> I ended up here after spotting this marking on a WW2 1911A1 on display in a museum. Truth to be told I could see that what they actually had there was an airsoft gun which is probably for the better, but it got me thinking about that marking, something I've never really payed attention to. I decided to turn to a forum dedicated to handguns to find an answer.
> 
> What exactly does it mean? My initial guess was that they were owned by the states themselves, but I also know thanks to American friends that lots of WW2 Era Colts with this exact marking have been and are still being sold as surplus. So what actually does it define? Does it mean it is illegal to export them/for them to be taken outside the US?


What museum, and what country? I am thinking you may be outside the US? A lot of US marked military small arms were lost/lent/sold to other nations in the past, as well as captured in some locations, so the markings would be meaningless. As for former US small arms sold IN the United States with that roll mark, the highest chance is it is probably surplus that was sold, such as the M1 Garands that are sold through the Civilian Marksmanship Program, and they have sold surplus 1911s as well. As for transferring out of the US, not sure that would really mean much, if legal to own here - the big thing would be is that firearm legal for civilian ownership in the country the person is attempting to bring it in to, as that might have some unpleasant consequences. That moves into a whole new ballgames most of us really wouldn't have much info on - you could try contacting the US State Department to see if they could clarify it for you.


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## LzChase (1 mo ago)

armoredman said:


> What museum, and what country? I am thinking you may be outside the US? A lot of US marked military small arms were lost/lent/sold to other nations in the past, as well as captured in some locations, so the markings would be meaningless. As for former US small arms sold IN the United States with that roll mark, the highest chance is it is probably surplus that was sold, such as the M1 Garands that are sold through the Civilian Marksmanship Program, and they have sold surplus 1911s as well. As for transferring out of the US, not sure that would really mean much, if legal to own here - the big thing would be is that firearm legal for civilian ownership in the country the person is attempting to bring it in to, as that might have some unpleasant consequences. That moves into a whole new ballgames most of us really wouldn't have much info on - you could try contacting the US State Department to see if they could clarify it for you.


I'm in Sweden, it was a small privately owned museum in a garage that I visited about 2 months ago, I don't know if it was a one-off or if it's still there, so perhaps museum is a bit of a stretch. I just found it strange that an airsoft replica appeared alongside a genuine M1 rifle and Thompson SMG, which is what raised the question, did they use an airsoft replica because it would be illegal to import a real 1911 with that marking? So the question is basically would it be illegal for a collector (who has a permit to own firearms) to own a United States Property marked 1911 if he is outside the us?


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## gwpercle (Jun 8, 2018)

It means you stole it .... don't advertise the fact  !

Just funning you ... it was in the Army (Military) at one time and was the property of the United States .
Issued firearms were supposed to be turned back in at the end of your service ... some went back home with G.I.'s at the end of WWII ... but shouldn't have !


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## armoredman (Oct 14, 2021)

LzChase said:


> I'm in Sweden, it was a small privately owned museum in a garage that I visited about 2 months ago, I don't know if it was a one-off or if it's still there, so perhaps museum is a bit of a stretch. I just found it strange that an airsoft replica appeared alongside a genuine M1 rifle and Thompson SMG, which is what raised the question, did they use an airsoft replica because it would be illegal to import a real 1911 with that marking? So the question is basically would it be illegal for a collector (who has a permit to own firearms) to own a United States Property marked 1911 if he is outside the us?


Ah, Sweden, beautiful country. As for your question, I have no idea about Sweden's firearms laws, but I suspect that they are much stricter than ours. I am willing to bet this private museum doesn't have the proper paperwork/permits to display a real handgun, so the replica is doing stunt double for now. As for US property markings on real guns outside of the US...easy answer is those guns are not within reach of US law, so again it would be up to the host country. Unless it was something stolen of incredible value, like George Washington's personal sidearm, it would be HIGHLY unlikely the US government would care a whit.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

If I were to guess the museum, as you describe it just doesn't have an original WW2 M1911 A1 and has used the replica pistol to fill the void. Especially if they have an authentic Thompson M1A1 sub machine gun and an authentic M1 Garand on display. Is there anyway you can speak with the curator at the museum and ask him it may help with your questions.

While really not knowing the accuracy of this post on the subject, you can take the post below with a grain of salt. Many WW2 1911'S were lend lease as well.

"WW1 1911 and WW2 1911A1's are US PROPERTY marked, Pre-war…WW2 and Post-War US Cal 30 M1 rifles and World War 2 US 30 Cal Carbines are not US PROPERTY marked. Neither were M50 and M55 Reising SMG's. The M1 rifles and carbines were only US Government manufactured so no real reason to mark them US PROPERTY. The Thompsons and Reisings SMG's were also sold commercially. Maybe the ordnance inspector acceptance markings on the Thompsons were thought of as being sufficient to establish US PROPERTY"


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## BigHead (Jul 5, 2015)

It was meant to show ownership of the gun by the United States.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

From 1911 till 1925 it was illegal for civilians to have posession of a 1911. Some were stolen before the war and many more never found their way back to be turned in. Lost in the field was the common excuse used. I have one the was made in 1914.


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## hike1272.mail (Nov 19, 2021)

LzChase said:


> So only military issue Colts have this marking?
> But what about the actual phrase? I heard stories of how a soldier bringing his service pistol home counted as stealing, and similarly of how a weapon labeled with the marking is not allowed to leave the US borders, and even seen one guy stating that it is "strictly illegal to own a weapon with this engraving outside the US, which make many collectors criminals", is there any truth in this? And if so, is that why the museum used an airsoft gun?


Firearms marked "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" means that it was, at one point, owned by the United States' Federal Government.
Millions of these firearms were taken outside the USA by USA military during wars and actions that required them.
Millions of firearms were released to foreign countries to use in their military endeavors.
It is not illegal to have these firearms outside of the USA. (Even if it was illegal, would foreign governments care?)
The USA military uses a variety of guns for training. -- bb guns were used during the Vietnam war era; airsoft guns are used in training, competition, etc. This is normal for the USA military at various times. This is the same as other countries training with all wood mock-up guns at earlier stages of training or if firearms were limited.
Soldiers can and did bring home their service firearms at different times. I am not aware of hard and fast rules. My father-in-law brought his 1911 pistol home with him when he returned from the Korean war.
Many military firearms end up being sold to civilians, or given to law enforcement agencies (who then may or may not sell them).
That's what I know.


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## armoredman (Oct 14, 2021)

tony pasley said:


> From 1911 till 1925 it was illegal for civilians to have posession of a 1911. Some were stolen before the war and many more never found their way back to be turned in. Lost in the field was the common excuse used. I have one the was made in 1914.


Um, say what? In that same time period civilians could order machineguns through the mail. I've read both 1912 and 1913 as the first years of civilian production as they were trying to fill miitary contracts...but NO guns were federally illegal for civilians to own during that time frame.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

The civilian pistol was actually a version of the 1909 the government turned down. The actual M-1911 was military only until 1925.


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## moorgena (4 mo ago)

It means you can be charged with theft of government property if you are caught with anything so marked outside of the military or federal government employ. 

And you thought dealing with the IRS was bad?


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## Cypher (May 17, 2017)

moorgena said:


> It means you can be charged with theft of government property if you are caught with anything so marked outside of the military or federal government employ.


If you don't have any idea what you're talking about, you probably shouldn't


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

He was correct until 1925. After that no you wouldn't be.


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