# The other side of the coin.



## Survivor (Oct 30, 2011)

We have all heard about, discussed, or maybe just thought about this scenario:

You are suddenly faced with two or more attackers. Your means of escape has been compromised and you are forced to make a stand. One of your attackers has a visible weapon (firearm) and threatening you. It is now all about survival...who do you shoot first? Well, that's easy, the one with the gun.

So lets look at the other side of the coin:

A bad guy decides to visit a certain establishment because of what they have inside. They have it, he needs (wants) it, and he decides he will kill if necessary to take it. He goes there armed and hides his piece under a light jacket or loose shirt. He's inside sizing up his situation, yep they have what he wants and there are only two other people there. The only wrinkle in his plan is the guy openly carrying a gun. He is not dissuaded from his intent, but rather moves to a more tactically advantaged spot in the place. OK, now it's game time...who does he decide to shoot first?

I'm just saying that in this case I would prefer to be carrying concealed and at least have a chance to defend myself. I also realise that I have just placed an open flame on a powder keg. To all those who prefer to carry openly, this was not intended as a slam but merely food for thought. :smt102

Survivor


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

You won't find a lot of opposition to your viewpoint here as there aren't a whole heck of a lot of OC'ers on this forum.

That being said, while the above scenario/ideas are very valid, a squared away carrier has a couple of means to prevent such a scenario.


 When seated, say at a restaurant, stick to booths and keep your gun side inboard so it is not visible.
No flashy guns, a black gun in a brown holster, over a black shirt and brown pants is not going to be nearly as easy to detect from those doing a quick scan.
Jackets slung over the shoulder, a newspaper, of just keeping your arm over you can can obscure it from casual observance without "concealing" the gun.
Situational awareness as to how you are positioned in your environment in general and avoid establishing a routine that may set you up for ambush. Don't walk the dog down the same path every night @ 9:30PM before going to bed etc.
I will also point out that this occurrence has not happened yet...note I said YET. Some will bring up the Waffle House Not Robbery where the would-be robbers armed with long guns passed on robbing the establishment due to two open carriers being inside. That's all well and good but as the original post here mentioned, had they really, really wanted to rob that store, they could have come in shooting. Thankfully they were not willing to add murder 1 to an armed robbery charge if caught.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

hi, 

i am TedDeBearFrmHell and i am a 24/7 open carry guy. and while i do see that the tactical advantage in your scenario is lost on the good guy what you failed to realize that anyone can build a scenario that "proves" any idea they wish to promote..... just a few days ago there was a thread where diane sawyer "proved" that concealed carry doesnt do anyone any good either. 

you can find me actively posting on the oregon section of opencarry.org . many of us are accused of "flaunting" our carry and justifiably so.... i council maturity but advice is not always taken. 

i usually appendix carry my p6 in a yaqui slide, its right there for anyone to if they are looking. but i been carrying long enough that i dont spend any time finger banging it either.


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2011)

tumbleweed


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

Deciding who to shoot is easy. You take the easiest target first and the next second. It's going to happen in probably 2 seconds from holster to finish if there's only two targets to engage so why be worried about who's armed? If two guys confront me and one is armed I'll assume they are both dangerous and target both. If the guy who's planning a robbery is any good at all he would move to a spot with tactical advantage to begin with so you're screwed from the start no matter what. If any of the bad guys are amateurs then they well may miss, then game on.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

I'd support anyone that would like to open carry, but I prefer to be more of a threat than I appear. I'm not hired to be anyone's security guard, and there's no advantage to me by playing "fair" with anyone that would consider pointing a firearm at me.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

:watching:


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## sgms (Jun 2, 2010)

Yup you set a match to a fuse all right Going to be interesting to see where this one goes.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Another OC argument, having your gun taken away and used against you. I think this is the first time I've heard this happen to a "civilian"

Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories | Richmond Times-Dispatch


> Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
> Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, *but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster*, Johnson said.
> "The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
> According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

If I were to carry openly, I would do so only in a retention holster or something of the sort. Even the police have retention holsters.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

My only thing is what good does it do to carry concealed if you are risk getting it or yourself tangled up in your clothing. besides when there is a guy with a gun and he is looking at you then you start raising up your shirt or reaching in your jacket you risk getting shot also. So that point really isn't valid. 

i have seen stories where concealed gun carriers have been shot with their gun still holstered and concealed. Didn't give them any kind of tactical advantage there. The whole having your gun taken away from you is very overrated. besides a good retention level holster anyway and that will stop a quick snatch and grab.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Brevard13 said:


> ...[W]hat good does it do to carry concealed if you are risk getting it or yourself tangled up in your clothing[?]...


If you _practice_ your presentation, rather than leaving it to chance, you will not tangle your pistol in your clothing.

If you _practice_ your presentation, you will find that raising your shirt or reaching into your jacket will happen so quickly, and thus can be done at the very last moment, that it will not become a "giveaway."

Further, _if you really have practiced_ your defensive-shooting technique, you will find that you can shoot very effectively, even when your pistol is tangled in your clothes. You may ruin your shirt or jacket, but you will save your life.

But, you gotta_ practice_.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

I am going to have to disagree with you on some of that. Practice and muscle memory can only help so much. I am a believer in Murphy's Law. I mean there are alot of what ifs to play out in that scenario. I mean you can figure in anything from the bad guys reflexes being faster, to you not being as observant (maybe you have alot on your mind) so on and so forth. For me I can have shirts in the same size that all fit and wear different. I know for me there is always a slight difference in the way I move and can present in the clothes I wear, and the majority is never, ever the same. This is why I am a firm believer in a OWB holster and a untucked shirt or wear a jacket as opposed to the IWB and a tucked in shirt. No matter how much you practice there is liable to be something that always happens. Your raise your shirt to turn your arm bumps the shelf and you don't make a clean draw bad gun turns and shoots. Like I said alot of what if's. In my opinion it is just alot simplier is all you have to do is draw, point and shoot; instead of moving clothing, drawing, pointing, and shooting.

For me I like the know I have the right to open carry. I also like the fact that I don't have to be as careful when carrying concealed. if i bend over and my shirt moves and you can see the bottom of my holster, or I turn and it prints then so be it. I can't get caught for brandishing a weapon or considered terrorizing the public if there is no anti open carry law (which I am proud my state permits open carry).

if you are shooting from the hip tangled in your clothes you had A) better be close enough to know you are going to hit the bad guy, B) better be a damn good shot. I wouldn't chance it because fo the risk of hitting someone I never intended to shoot. I mean if he a bad guy has grabbed me and it is almost point blank range then fine. but I assumed we were talking about being some distance away and there are too many variables that can happen when firing from the hip through clothing.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Brevard13*;
Please enlighten me about your experience with pistols in general, and with defensive shooting in particular.
You may have something to teach me, but I won't know that until I have a good idea of what's in your background.

How often do you practice, and what sort of scenarios do you use for your practice?
Do you indulge in any reasonably practical, formal competition which prepares you for self-defense? If so, what and how often?
How long have you been doing this?
For how long have you held a concealed-carry permit? How long have you been carrying, if that's different for some reason?
Have you any military or police experience?
Have I left anything out?


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

While there is a pretty clear advantage to accessing your firearm in an open-carry situation, it seems to me that the disadvantage of letting an aggressor know you're armed at all is far greater. 

Regardless if your weapon is openly carried or concealed, an aggressor will necessarily have a weapon out first.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *Brevard13*;
> Please enlighten me about your experience with pistols in general, and with defensive shooting in particular.
> You may have something to teach me, but I won't know that until I have a good idea of what's in your background.
> 
> ...


I feel you rather hastily posted this and didn't think your post out very throughly before posting. I'm sensing alittle sarcasism in your post. I usually don't respond because sometimes I have been known to get angry (especially like now when I havent had much sleep and am in a bad mood). If you weren't being sarcastic then I will apologize. Hence why I said I will have to disagree with you. After all it is my opinion in which I am entitled to. You don't agree that is fine. But, please don't try to talk down to me like I don't know what I am talking about. I may not be the most knowledgable person. But, I have done some research and while my training and stuff might be limited I do have enough to base my opinion. I won't comment on something if I don't have some experience in it. If you don't agree wiht me that is fine tell me why. you might not have meant anything by it but anytime I have ever heard the please enlighten me it was either done to belittle the person who was speaking or because the person was so high up on themselves they couldn't fathom they might be wrong and were hoping that they could just demean the person a bit to where it might discredit anything they have or will say.

This is why I don't like the internet and stuff. It is hard to tell when someone is being sincere, sarcastic, or a plain ass. When I read it based on how I have always heard it use I pictured a very sarcastic and demeaning tone even though you may have not meant it. What you did hear was almost like what Bulldog said to you in the Nightsighters thread that you took offense to. I was almost tempted to not respond. However, I feel my og post however has merit that alot of people won't take into consideration. Like I said there are always what if's.

Then there is the whole adrenaline thing kicking in. Adrealine, tunnel vision, muscle tightening up prohibiting fluid movement and making simple movements difficult (which will hender muscle memory). I have heard of someone getting scared or nervous and not being able to work the manual safety on their gun. Heard of one guy that tried to work the safety and hit the magazine release and never knew it. If it would have been more than just a squirrel in the house he woul dhave been screwed.

please, please, please don't talk to me like I am talking out of my ass. I do have some knowledge. I expressed my opinion. I give my reason on the whole muscle memory and aderaline. What I was trying to say for the average person who won't practice it is easier for them to fiddle with their shirt then draw the weapon. Or just to draw the weapon. but just because it contradicts what you think please don't try to belittle me for stating my opinion. People can and will disagree. But, unfortunately it is post like this that make me hesitant to post on forums much. It is an opinion take it or leave it.

I am sory for the rant. Last time I heard the enlighten me I was on a paintball forum and a guy asked a question about a gun in which i was very knowledgeable in (even had the person who owned and operated the company comment on this on the same forum). I had a guy that wanted to argue something I knew wouldn't work. And his post was almost similar to yours. Please enlighten me on this since you think you know everything. I am right now I am just starting to get worked up over something petty and probably taken out of context so I will just answer your questions for the sake of staying awake and getting tired of watching the stupid camera monitors.

I have had a good number of family memembers in the military. I have been shown alittle of what they were taught. I was given alittle instruction from a USMC firearms instructor when he came to visit my cousin for vacation last year (not really anything I hadn't been shown already). Now my wife's family has alot of LEO's. And I am very good friends with alot of the Sheriff's Dept and Police Dept officers. Some because of my jiu-jitsu class and alot from playing men's softball (mostly Sheriff's Dept). I know the majority of the teachers who do the BLET classes. Including the firearms instructor who does the qualifications testing for the officers during the year. I have had the ability to learn from them (and their training varies from schools, to military and whatnot). Currently I am working for a security company that only lets people with military or law enforcement training (which can be varified) to work armed sites. I have talked to the firearms instructor and he agrees I know more than alot of the people they have take the class and am a better shot but I just don't have the varification which IMO is stupid, but what can you do. I'm just from one of those little hicktowns so what I consider a decent amount of training might not be much compared to someone elses. but I do know that I have had more than alot of people have.

1. I practice whenever I get a chance. As far as live fire. Since my wife and I moved into the city limits I can't fire my gun outside (unless in a self defense situation). I am not even sure if I can shoot a snake in the yard without getting in trouble for discharging a firearm in city limits. I keep forgetting to ask. So now I rely on the indoor range for the most part for my live fire shooting. I can't practice shooting from sitting or laying down at the range. But I still try to go at least once a week. I try to go more when especially if I have a couple of bad days in a row or just need some stress relief. Every so often I will go to my cousin's house and practice stuff in his yard. Such as drawing and firing from a seated position. Drawing, shooting, and reloading lay down (back, side, stomach). I have even take a chair set it on its back and laid down on it with my feet in the air and practice shooting semi upside down (like someone pushed you over and the guy that was behind you is coming up on you).

As far as the rest I purchased some snap caps and practice in my house. Malfunctions, draw from sitting or laying down. Worked on being in the bed and responding quickly if I hear somehting (which is getting the flashlight, phone and pistol). room clearing (though thankfully with the house layout and the fact it isn't that big it isn't very hard). I practice moving around the house outside just because you never know). I also sit in my truck and practice drawing and stuff from seated with a seatbelt on. I also do other things like practice one hand reloads. Racking the gun off my thigh or boot if for some reason I am hurt or whatever and down to one arm. I do however need to work on my offhand stuff alot more because even with the practice I am still very weak at this. This type of stuff depending on sleep and stuff I do about once a day or ever couple of days.

2. I don't have the luxury of any kind of competitions. There is one local shooting competition that I have a friend who does. He said overall the competition isnt very good. he only has one eye and has trouble seeing sometimes. Not a very good shot and he usually places pretty high. I have found some more self defense type competitions. but I don't have the time nor means to really travel to compete. Especially on a regular basis.

3. As for how long I have been shooting. I'm almost 34. My uncle (even though my mom hated it) started me shooting when 3 and 4 with BB Guns. When I was between 5 and 6 years old I started with a .22lr rifle and a .22lr revolver. Started shooting more as I got older. Started carrying when I was 21 (thank God for open carry). Mainly in the car with the gun on the passenger seat (here you can carry in your car if the gun is on the dash or in the seat and not covered up).

4. I have had my concealed permit for 4 yrs. I have been carrying it longer (if you count around my house and family's house = parent's, grandparent's, aunt and uncle's house). I had to carry concealed there because my mom is terrified of guns. She knew I had my pistol on my but if it was concealed and she couldn't see it then she would forget about it and it didn't bother her.

5. Played paintball for alittle over 12 years. We even did the little paintball pistols (PGP's) put in holsters. Did the whole dual thing where we paced and everything. Now grant it because paintball are round and sometimes they aren't even perfectly round it still gives you a general idea of what it is like to have to draw from a holster quickly. Alot of people don't realize what it is like to be shot at. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be shot at in real life. But, paintball was enough to make you think. Adrenaline rush, tunnel vision, muscles tensing up which makes everything from aiming, to running hard to do. You experience it even more when you are the last one left defending a base and there are over 100 guys shooting at you or in your direction.

5. No military experience. Went to sign up for the Army. Went to MEPS. They were concerned over my weight and that give my a temporary disqualification and told me if I lost the whole 8 pounds I could re-do everything there and I would be GTG. Of course then they looked at the shoulder I had broken. It never healed up right so every so often it would hurt and I would have limited range of motion. I say would but it still does. I even tried to lie and say it wasn't that bad but they said they wouldn't take me. I have toyed with the idea of BLET even though I haven't decided if I really wanted to be in law-enforcement. Though everyone I know loves it for the most part. My brother in law was trying hard to get me to do it. Of course he loves his job. He carries a gun and flies a helicopter for the Highway Patrol.

Now I have found out that due to my job they will actually help pay for BLET. So I may take it just to take it and then I can put in for a site post that allows me to carry my gun.

Now you know as well as I do that just because you practice something doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to excute that action when the time comes. You can say muscle memory all you want but even then sometimes that isnt enough. Just remember Murphy's law "Anything that can wrong will go wrong". Which may be from a malfunction, to getting tangled in a shirt, even the possiblity you drop your gun on accident during a situation.

- I play alot of softball. When we practice we hit over 100 balls at a time. It isn't nothing for you to hit 500-1000 depending on time and if you have enough people to pitch. All that practice come game time you might drop a shoulder, make your stance to wide, swing a tad bit earlier or later, miss hit the ball, catch the ball off the wrong part of the bat. And though you were killing the ball at practice you do bad one game.

- I did alot of paintball tournaments. Speedball, Airball, woodsball, hyperball. We drilled and drilled and drilled. Who was moving, who would do this and who would do that. Every situation makes things unpredictable. And things never go as planned. That is why you see alot of blown plays offensively and defensively in football.

But,I said that to say this. I have practiced drawing from concealed (and that is why from experience I can't stand IWB holsters with a shirt tucked in). But I know that something will possibly happen to where I can't quickly or flawlessly execute pulling my shirt up, drawing my weapon, and getting a good sight picture. I know if I can't without practice that alot of people who refuse to put the practice in won't be able to either. But like I said earlier their are alot of what if's that play into a sceanrio that was mentioned earlier.

It is also MY OPINION that people put too much thought into a snatch and grab on open carry. While yes it is possible, and yes it has happened. With all the places you can open carry I haven't heard many of these snatch and grab stories. And like I said before. Criminals want easy targets/prey. You have a 95% chance that if they know you are willing to defend yourself or you have the means to do it you will avoid being a victim. I mean seriously think about it. You are wanting to rob someone. So you go for the muscular fit guy or do you go after the small petite or an elderly woman. Do you try to attack the guy with the gun if you know he has chance of shooting you dead if you mess up.

I put my thoughts into both the victim and the attacker. Hence why I feel that open carry isn't as bad as everyone says. I also put my thoughts into which would be easier to draw and fire when adrealine is kicking in. Concealed where you have to move clothing or a straight draw and fire. I am not completely disagreeing with you Steve just some of it. And it has just been off what I have been told, some studying, and some scenarios that have played in my mind. Like you mentioned shooting through your clothes if you become tangled up. I don't agree with that mainly due to inexperienced people shooting themselves or an innocent bystander.

I can see how some people would consider it a disadvantage as if they would be targetted first if someone knew they had a gun. But then again from what I know about criminals (lazy and cowardly) you run a better chance of not getting attacked because you are carrying open.

Now what I meant to say before is. I think it should be legal everywhere. you can make arguments for and against it all day long. But at least give people the option do decide.

NOTE: please ignore any typos, grammar errors, spelling errors. I am dead tired right now and this is the second time I had to type this due to accidently deleting it the first time :smt076


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## rgrundy (Jul 16, 2011)

Like Steve said, if you have a lifestyle and dressstyle for CCW and practice things will go very smoothly when you draw. Usually anything you do 3000 times becomes a natural act like throwing a punch or drawing a weapon. As for being angry, usually the calm ones win competitions and real gunfights so my suggestion is to work towards that goal.


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

i open carry cause i am just awesome enough to pull off that kind of badassery!


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## recoilguy (Apr 30, 2009)

Your awesomeness comes through in all your posts. I want to be as awesome as you one day, until then I must continue to practice. Because practice is truly a good and proven way to become better at your chosen task and to move the task from a process of thought to second nature. Anything you aspire to be competent at demands not only caonstant practice but perfect practice.

wish me luck

RCG how awesome is that?


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

recoilguy said:


> Your awesomeness comes through in all your posts. I want to be as awesome as you one day, until then I must continue to practice. Because practice is truly a good and proven way to become better at your chosen task and to move the task from a process of thought to second nature. Anything you aspire to be competent at demands not only caonstant practice but perfect practice.
> 
> wish me luck
> 
> RCG how awesome is that?


totally awesome in every way my friend!


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Brevard13 said:


> I feel you rather hastily posted this and didn't think your post out very throughly before posting. I'm sensing alittle sarcasism in your post. I usually don't respond because sometimes I have been known to get angry (especially like now when I havent had much sleep and am in a bad mood). If you weren't being sarcastic then I will apologize. Hence why I said I will have to disagree with you. After all it is my opinion in which I am entitled to. You don't agree that is fine. But, please don't try to talk down to me like I don't know what I am talking about. I may not be the most knowledgable person. But, I have done some research and while my training and stuff might be limited I do have enough to base my opinion. I won't comment on something if I don't have some experience in it. If you don't agree wiht me that is fine tell me why. you might not have meant anything by it but anytime I have ever heard the please enlighten me it was either done to belittle the person who was speaking or because the person was so high up on themselves they couldn't fathom they might be wrong and were hoping that they could just demean the person a bit to where it might discredit anything they have or will say.
> 
> This is why I don't like the internet and stuff. It is hard to tell when someone is being sincere, sarcastic, or a plain ass. When I read it based on how I have always heard it use I pictured a very sarcastic and demeaning tone even though you may have not meant it. What you did hear was almost like what Bulldog said to you in the Nightsighters thread that you took offense to. I was almost tempted to not respond. However, I feel my og post however has merit that alot of people won't take into consideration. Like I said there are always what if's.
> 
> ...


Wow, and I thought Dante's Inferno was a long read. :mrgreen:

One thing, if you carry a gun for defense and you are not confident in it's application, you haven't practiced enough. The bold portion of your post strikes me as a little um... off. I _know_ that _something_ will _possibly_ happen? Not to pick nits here, but that screams of indecisiveness. Either you practice enough to know your capabilities or you shrug it off as "Murphy's Law". Might as well not even carry a gun if you're always expecting Murphy to show up. I mean, why bother... Murphy's just gonna screw you over, regardless of your carry method.

I train a lot, and by training, I mean professional training. I go to two or three 3-day classes a year and shoot every other week and I can tell you without a doubt that even under stress, your body will do what it is trained to do as long as you've put the appropriate amount of _smart_ training into it. (by smart I mean not just blazing thru ammo like a lot of people do on Youtube and call it training)

I carry IWB all the time with my shirt untucked over it and have no problems drawing under stress, even while moving off the X. It wasn't always that way, but after years of carrying this way, I can confidently state that Murphy has no room in my training regimen.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Brevard13 said:


> ...If you weren't being sarcastic then I will apologize...


I wasn't being sarcastic. It was an honest question about your experience.

But you don't need to apologize.


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

I prefer concealed carry, but I would like to point out a potential flaw in your scenario:



Survivor said:


> A bad guy decides to visit a certain establishment because of what they have inside. They have it, he needs (wants) it, and he decides he will kill if necessary to take it. He goes there armed and hides his piece under a light jacket or loose shirt. He's inside sizing up his situation, yep they have what he wants and there are only two other people there. The only wrinkle in his plan is the guy openly carrying a gun. *He is not dissuaded from his intent*, but rather moves to a more tactically advantaged spot in the place. OK, now it's game time...who does he decide to shoot first?


From a sheer tactical perspective (meaning issues of alarming neighbors/police aside), open carry relies on the assumption that the visible presence of a weapon acts as a deterrent, i.e. the bad guy sees a guy with a gun inside, goes "ohhh s***" and goes elsewhere. Concealed carry relies instead on maintaining the element of surprise as long as possible, at the cost of the sight of a gun potentially acting as a deterrent.

IMO, it's a psychological guess at what you think your average bad guy is going to do, and there's no right answer tactically. Is he a cowardly mugger looking for easy cash? Is he a druggie willing to do anything for his next high? Is he an experienced shoplifter who knows a fight would be too high profile? Is he a wanna be gangbanger with something to prove? You'll never know for sure.

I prefer to carry concealed. My reasons for doing so stem almost entirely from living in one of the more liberal cities in my state: I do not wish to start a fuss, nor have a conversation with the cops on any given day, so I choose to carry concealed and leave the general public in the dark to the fact that I am armed.

KG


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

rgrundy said:


> Like Steve said, if you have a lifestyle and dressstyle for CCW and practice things will go very smoothly when you draw. Usually anything you do 3000 times becomes a natural act like throwing a punch or drawing a weapon. As for being angry, usually the calm ones win competitions and real gunfights so my suggestion is to work towards that goal.


I don't know. I have seen people who have boxed and kick boxed for several years make a mistake and break their hand. Is it rare. Not as much as people think and considering how often they practice punches and sparring it is something to think about.

Kind of like swinging a bat. Like I mentioned before I play men's softball. It isn't nothing for us to go and hit 1000-2000 balls a weekend. I work 3rd so I even though I am only 33 I get to "play" (which is really just them practicing with each other). If you have never hit that much it is amazing at even something that is pitched underhand you can miss hit rather easily. Even with taking all those cuts. Now factor in stress and adrenaline and you have a mess.

I am not saying that concealed carry doesn't work or isn't effective. I am saying that for the average person who goes to the range shoots 100-200 rounds of ammo never drawing from a holster will not be able to successfully complete the steps to draw from concealed the majority of the time. I carry concealed a bunch. I still feel that with all my practicing that there maybe a time that I make a mistake and get tangled up or something. After all I am only human. That is why I keep practicing. But open carry still allows for a faster and cleaner draw under stressful situations.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

zhurdan said:


> Wow, and I thought Dante's Inferno was a long read. :mrgreen:
> 
> One thing, if you carry a gun for defense and you are not confident in it's application, you haven't practiced enough. The bold portion of your post strikes me as a little um... off. I _know_ that _something_ will _possibly_ happen? Not to pick nits here, but that screams of indecisiveness. Either you practice enough to know your capabilities or you shrug it off as "Murphy's Law". Might as well not even carry a gun if you're always expecting Murphy to show up. I mean, why bother... Murphy's just gonna screw you over, regardless of your carry method.
> 
> ...


Guess I should have used could instead of will. Like I said it was a bad day and night and I was really, really exhausted.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I wasn't being sarcastic. It was an honest question about your experience.
> 
> But you don't need to apologize.


No, I didn't want to come across as being a douchebag or anything. Like I said it is just hard to tell from reading how a post was meant to be taken. I apologize though.



kg333 said:


> I prefer concealed carry, but I would like to point out a potential flaw in your scenario:
> 
> From a sheer tactical perspective (meaning issues of alarming neighbors/police aside), open carry relies on the assumption that the visible presence of a weapon acts as a deterrent, i.e. the bad guy sees a guy with a gun inside, goes "ohhh s***" and goes elsewhere. Concealed carry relies instead on maintaining the element of surprise as long as possible, at the cost of the sight of a gun potentially acting as a deterrent.
> 
> ...


I am not saying open carry all the time. Like I said before for me it is mainly if I move and my gun becomes unconcealed I don't want any trouble getting started. If you are in a place that allows open carry and people know that it is legal I don't think you will get much flack from the police. Your neighbors may be different. Lord knows alot of them like to whine about stupid stuff. We had a neighbor call the police and DSS saying our other neighbor's kid was playing with matches or a lighter unsupervised. Come to find out she had a battery operated candle.

But, it is just like I said earlier. It all depends on the scenario. I mean could the bad guy be jumpy that any movement and he shoots. Which means you reach for your gun and you get shot. Or could he be one of those guys that you could make the gun shape with your index and thumb hide it under your shirt and say I will shoot and he run off (not likely).

I would say that 99% any of us run into will be someone who is looking for an easy target that can get what they want and go, and that no one will get hurt. I would also put money on the fact that the guy will be very nervous and even a knife alone will deter him. That seems to be 100% of the stories I hear about and read. Unless it is someone that kills the person and the person that died is unarmed.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

Personally, unless I'm at a range or on a firing line, I usually don't open carry. (There have been rare exceptions like when I've removed a jacket while sitting inside a stuffy restaurant, or while I'm out of the vehicle pumping gas at a late night station.)

I'm reminded of Lance Thomas who is, perhaps, the most: celebrated, skillful, and just plain lucky CQB pistol gunfighter in modern times! One of jeweler/gunfighter Thomas' self-defense techniques against sudden attack was to, 'salt' numerous pistols away behind the counter of his jewelry store. During his gunfighting years, Thomas might not have appeared to be armed; but he continued to survive multiple attempts on his life by never being too far away from a hidden, but readily available, pistol.

LiveLeak.com - Lance Thomas track record; 4 robberies 5 kills


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Brevard13 said:


> ...I am not saying that concealed carry doesn't work or isn't effective. I am saying that for the average person who goes to the range shoots 100-200 rounds of ammo never drawing from a holster will not be able to successfully complete the steps to draw from concealed the majority of the time...


That is, of course, correct.

I (personally) am neither concerned about, nor care about, a fool who carries a concealed weapon but doesn't practice being effective with it.
My only concern about such a person is whether or not his imbecility and incompetence will directly affect me or my family. To guard against that, I rely upon my normal watchful awareness of my surroundings, and upon my experience.

I tend to avoid confrontations, and I also do my best to avoid people who appear to be uncomfortable carrying a concealed weapon.
Given sufficient experience, both tasks are pretty easily accomplished.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> That is, of course, correct.
> 
> I (personally) am neither concerned about, nor care about, a fool who carries a concealed weapon but doesn't practice being effective with it.
> My only concern about such a person is whether or not his imbecility and incompetence will directly affect me or my family. To guard against that, I rely upon my normal watchful awareness of my surroundings, and upon my experience.
> ...


Bingo Steve... bingo.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> That is, of course, correct.
> 
> I (personally) am neither concerned about, nor care about, a fool who carries a concealed weapon but doesn't practice being effective with it.
> My only concern about such a person is whether or not his imbecility and incompetence will directly affect me or my family. To guard against that, I rely upon my normal watchful awareness of my surroundings, and upon my experience.
> ...


I agree whole heartedly. Especially because of the fact I don't want to have to deal with all the legal crap that goes on after a self defense shooting. So I will avoid anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. There have been times my wife and I have pulled into a resturant and I get a bad feeling in my stomach and we leave. Nothing ever happens (except maybe not eating bad food) but I feel on of these days that gut feeling will come back to save mine or her life.

At the same time I was just addressing how you carry. I know for me open carry or concealed I am going to be alot more tolerable and calm knowing I have a gun on my person as to when I am not armed and I can tend to be more hot headed and open mouthed. I was just talking baout the fact on whether the odds of you getting attacked more because you are targeted for carrying a gun or not. Personally I feel that you will avoid more situations if people know you are armed. of course I also think this is not for everyone. Some people are just to ditzy and yes would run a good risk of having their gun taken from them. I am like Tedd though open or concealed I am aware of what goes on around me. And probably even more so when carrying open.


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## berettabone (Jan 23, 2012)

Besides trying my best to be aware of my surroundings...this is why I carry in my front pocket...it goes in easy, and it comes out easy, and I can keep my hands in my front pocket or pockets, and no one is the wiser, because I do it all the time.....as far as open carry, i say, if you can do it without getting thrown around by the local police, do it....if thats how you are comfortable carrying, do it....


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## Survivor (Oct 30, 2011)

TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> hi,
> 
> i am TedDeBearFrmHell and i am a 24/7 open carry guy. and while i do see that the tactical advantage in your scenario is lost on the good guy what you failed to realize that anyone can build a scenario that "proves" any idea they wish to promote..... just a few days ago there was a thread where diane sawyer "proved" that concealed carry doesnt do anyone any good either.
> 
> ...


*I STAND CORRECTED* Recently I had an altercation which resulted in my having to draw my weapon; no shots fired. I truely believe the situation would not have occured if I had been openly carrying my firearm. Your point was driven home in a very dramatic way. I am now trying to come to terms with the idea of regularly carrying my gun openly.


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

Survivor said:


> *I STAND CORRECTED* Recently I had an altercation which resulted in my having to draw my weapon; no shots fired. I truely believe the situation would not have occured if I had been openly carrying my firearm. Your point was driven home in a very dramatic way. I am now trying to come to terms with the idea of regularly carrying my gun openly.


That made me giggle a little. Not that you had to pull your gun. It made me giggle , because it is just one of those awkward moments when you realize you think someone is crazy for doing something you can't really understand, only to find out they really weren't crazy, and that they might be on to something.


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## PAWPAUL (Jul 17, 2011)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I wasn't being sarcastic. It was an honest question about your experience.
> 
> But you don't need to apologize.


Steve :

he takes you to task , game , set , and match

.....writes enough feedback to make you look bad ( REAL bad ! )

and the best comeback you can come up with is telling him he don't have to apologize ? :anim_lol:


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## TedDeBearFrmHell (Jul 1, 2011)

Survivor said:


> *I STAND CORRECTED* Recently I had an altercation which resulted in my having to draw my weapon; no shots fired. I truely believe the situation would not have occured if I had been openly carrying my firearm. Your point was driven home in a very dramatic way. I am now trying to come to terms with the idea of regularly carrying my gun openly.


i recommend going to OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost! ... and clicking on the maps for your state... it will give you a butt ton of information and postings from people who oc in your area.

i am glad you walked away from the confrontation unscathed.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

PAWPAUL said:


> Steve :
> 
> he takes you to task , game , set , and match
> 
> ...


I told him that he needn't apologize because I want him to feel comfortable in a continuing conversation with me and with everyone else who contributes here. He is just starting out, but he can learn a lot if he joins the conversation.

If you believe that the conversations on this forum are some sort of game, with winners and losers, then you have very little understanding of the arts of polite conversation and how to learn from others.

If you believe that what we post should make each other feel bad, or look bad, then you are acting very foolishly indeed.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I told him that he needn't apologize because I want him to feel comfortable in a continuing conversation with me and with everyone else who contributes here. He is just starting out, but he can learn a lot if he joins the conversation.
> 
> If you believe that the conversations on this forum are some sort of game, with winners and losers, then you have very little understanding of the arts of polite conversation and how to learn from others.
> 
> If you believe that what we post should make each other feel bad, or look bad, then you are acting very foolishly indeed.


OHHH EMMM GEEEE Steve... you got OWNED... or something. (sarcasm)

Steve is well respected around here as being pretty damn level headed, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt over a new poster. NO OFFENSE new poster, but I can already tell that you will take offense as you are obviously a troll. Welcome PAWPAUL to handgunforum.net.

Might be best to listen first... front later. Just sayin'. (btw... is that how the punks "tho down" now days or do we need to drop some shivs and go dirty?

Good Lord... you try to give good advice and they just want to argue of minutia. Welcome to Paris Hilton's interwebs!


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

Steve has the respect of a great deal of the folks here. It's for good reason. I'm confident that it will take more than infantile prattle to rile him.

Here's to hoping you can find something worthwhile to contribute.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks for your votes of confidence, guys.
To quote Bugs Bunny: "Ah, me public...my fans."
:smt033

But please remember: Do not feed the troll.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> But please remember: Do not feed the troll.


what he said....back on topic please


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## Brevard13 (Nov 28, 2010)

PAWPAUL said:


> Steve :
> 
> he takes you to task , game , set , and match
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to make him look bad. I was just answering his questions and trying my best to give my reasonings for what I believe and think.



TedDeBearFrmHell said:


> i recommend going to OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost! ... and clicking on the maps for your state... it will give you a butt ton of information and postings from people who oc in your area.
> 
> i am glad you walked away from the confrontation unscathed.


Thank you. Now I have something else to kill time with at work.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> I told him that he needn't apologize because I want him to feel comfortable in a continuing conversation with me and with everyone else who contributes here. He is just starting out, but he can learn a lot if he joins the conversation.
> 
> If you believe that the conversations on this forum are some sort of game, with winners and losers, then you have very little understanding of the arts of polite conversation and how to learn from others.
> 
> If you believe that what we post should make each other feel bad, or look bad, then you are acting very foolishly indeed.


I will always be learning...FACT! part of conversing is being able to have a conversation, explain different view points without getting angry or trying to make someone else look bad. Unless, a person is just being a dick then it is kind of fun. But, I agree with Steve 100% on this. If I can't post something, only to have someone disagree with it, and then get mad because they don't agree or vice versa...then I nor the other person should be posting.

Do I get agrrivated sometimes, it is at that point I don't post and let myself calm down and think before I type.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks, *Brevard*.
I appreciate your input.


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

And again:

Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun












> An *unarmed* man attempted to rob an Eastern Michigan University student of his handgun Thursday morning while he walked on Pearl Street near the campus in Ypsilanti, university officials said.
> 
> According to an email alert sent out by EMU, the student - an open-carry advocate - was walking at about 9:15 a.m. in the 300 block of Pearl Street when he was approached by an unknown man. The man grabbed the student's holstered handgun and attempted to wrestle it away from the student, according to the alert.
> *Another person walking by the area came to the student's aid and was able to secure the handgun,* EMU said in the statement.


Apparently the suspect was not deterred, despite being unarmed.


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