# Shoot Outs



## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

I have been watching various PD cam shooting and one thing I learned is that no matter the caliber " sorry .45acp" it takes more than one round to end the threat. If these LEOs had only 10 rounds like many states imposes on their citizens then they have a greater chance of being dead. I would like your input on what is needed to end a threat quickly. What does it take to survive an encounter with a bad guy and what do you use to help make sure you see tomorrow. If you use a 9mm with a good JHP like me I feel that I am about as well armed as I can be on a daily basis. The most important factor is to have a gun 2nd would be shot placement and 3rd is proper ammo. I know this subject has been been reviewed but due to my encounter with a guy with road rage I am thinking twice about what I carry. I carry a S&W Shield or 3913 with 124 grain HST or 124+p Gold Dots so for the most part I only carry 8 rounds and a spare mag on me or in the glove box. I practice at 15 yards and less because for me that is where I think 99% of gun fights take place. In doing research I have never heard of a LEO only shooting one time and ending the fight and from what I see on videos most attackers don't go down with only one round to the chest. I have seen an officer die after shooting his whole mag at a suspect and only landing one shot to his chest. I have seen a man take a 45acp round to the torso and jump in his car and die 2 miles down the road. The fact that he could drive after getting shot with a 45acp amazes me. I have seen a man pull a knife and get shot in the stomach with a 45acp and still fight the police officer and was winning until a person stopped and help the officer hand cuff the perp. Most of these guy were not on drugs and it still took multiple rounds to take em down. I see now why people have 12 gauges loaded with buckshot and AR 15 for home defense. A pistol is a poor man stopper but fulfills the number rule and that is to have a gun with you.

GRAPHIC: Ohio PD AK-47 Shootout | Military.com


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Actually a handgun is the best personal carry defensive arm you can carry on your person. Now make sure you understand that definition. In this context a personal carry defensive arm does not include long guns. This now takes us to revolvers or pistols, then to calibers, and finally to loads. The adage here is to carry and use the most powerful caliber and load with which you can deliver rounds to target accurately, consistently, confidently, and effectively. All of that will produce the best choice in the gun to use.

Are there any guarantees that a BG will go down with one or two well placed shots? Of course not. But if you train on a regular basis, to include draw and fire with live ammunition, at targets of varying sizes, that move or flip, and at varying distances (within reason), you will increase your chances of stopping a deadly attack. Still no guarantees but then there is only one guarantee in life, anyway. You will die some day.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I knew a retired police officer many years ago who pulled a car over and when the driver got out he fired at the officer with his revolver, hitting him in his lower leg. The officer pulled his 1911 and dispatched the gunman with a shot to his chest. I frankly don't know how many shots he fired but the BG died on the scene.

Another man I met within the past seven years has shot at least seven men, killing five of them. His choice of sidearm was also a 1911. I never knew where he worked but I have always suspected he was a federal marshal. He sent over 25 people to prison in his career.

I am firm believer that one never really knows how they are going to act or react in an extreme encounter until it is staring them in the face like right now.... unless they have had a similar experience or experiences in the past. Believing this to be true, I also believe that if you train enough, your actions will become almost automatic and you stand a much better chance of winning a gunfight. Listen to the lessons of the ages. They do indeed have much to tell.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

First, the most valuable defensive weapon you have is your mind. So the best thing you can do from that standpoint is educate and train. Training breed competence, and competence breeds confidence. Often times the way you carry and present yourself can save your life. The best fight is the one you never had to fight. If you can talk your way out of a confrontation, do it! You have nothing to prove to a stranger. 

Secondly, find a weapon that is right for you. I have gone through just about every pistol of decent reputation to find the one that fits me best. This list includes HK, Sig, Glock, Colt, Springfield, Browning, S&W, FN, Styer, Beretta and more. I've owned them all, shot them all, and in every caliber from .380, .38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45. I spent hours at the range working to find the pistol that was best for me. Then I work with those guns. Practice, practice, practice!!!

Lastly, know which round performs best in which gun. Some rounds perform completely differently in shorter barrel guns than in longer barrel service pistols. Study! Always train! 

Finally, always remember who you are and where you're at. Situational awareness can be the difference btwn life and death.


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## Donn (Jul 26, 2013)

All due respect Shao, you're overthinking this. Unless you're an active duty LEO, high profile security or consciously go looking for trouble, you'll likely never be involved in a gun fight or ever have to draw your weapon. The fact that you're aware of the limits of any handgun round puts you a step ahead of a lot of people who carry. Practice, yes. Constant awareness of the world around you, of course. Don't let You Tube vids dictate the way you live your life. They're the exception, not the rule. Watch too many and you'll never leave the house.


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## GCBHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Donn said:


> All due respect Shao, you're overthinking this. Unless you're an active duty LEO, high profile security or consciously go looking for trouble, you'll likely never be involved in a gun fight or ever have to draw your weapon. The fact that you're aware of the limits of any handgun round puts you a step ahead of a lot of people who carry. Practice, yes. Constant awareness of the world around you, of course. Don't let You Tube vids dictate the way you live your life. They're the exception, not the rule. Watch too many and you'll never leave the house.


Having read other posts has served to get me better acquainted with shaolin's perspectives/points of view. I think maybe he's just trying to educate himself, and talk among other carriers to see what their experiences are. Nothing wrong with that.


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

I figure a person is most likely to have to use his gun from road rage or car jacking. A lot of idiots on the road these days. I carry a .357 Sig and if I need to shoot through my windshield or rolled up window I feel it is the best I can carry.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

zeke4351 said:


> I figure a person is most likely to have to use his gun from road rage or car jacking. A lot of idiots on the road these days. I carry a .357 Sig and if I need to shoot through my windshield or rolled up window I feel it is the best I can carry.


357 Sig is a very impressive round. If it didn't cost so much and was more available in my area I might get this. I hear that some LEO agencies are getting great results from the 125gr JHP.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

SouthernBoy said:


> I knew a retired police officer many years ago who pulled a car over and when the driver got out he fired at the officer with his revolver, hitting him in his lower leg. The officer pulled his 1911 and dispatched the gunman with a shot to his chest. I frankly don't know how many shots he fired but the BG died on the scene.
> 
> Another man I met within the past seven years has shot at least seven men, killing five of them. His choice of sidearm was also a 1911. I never knew where he worked but I have always suspected he was a federal marshal. He sent over 25 people to prison in his career.
> 
> ...


st I am glad that the officer survived. This proves to me that a person shot in the leg does not fall down. Wow to the person who shot 7 men and killing 5 as I never known an Agent or Officer to be involved in that many shootings.
The 1911 is a wonderful platform and I own 2 of them a Kimber and S&W and the S&W shoots more accurately than the Kimber for me. I do carry the 1911 sometimes but I don't like a Safety on my carry gun but I guess with practice it would be second nature to take it off. If I knew I was going to be in a shootout then I would want a 1911 for sure as it puts rounds on target fast and accurately. I can do it also with my Sig P228 and S&W 3913 too and I just love the 9mm. If I need more power then I have loads up to the +p+ from Underwood 124 gr, Winchester 127gr, and 9BPLE 115 gr. I've seen that 115 absolutely destroy targets and gel blocks but it does shed weight as it travels through things. I want to do some denim/water jug test to see expansion on the other rounds. My main carry load it the 124/147 HST or 124+p Gold Dot. I use the Gold dots for home defense guns with a 4" or longer barrel and the HST for my Shield/3913 EDC because they expand from a 3" barrel and get to the 12"-15" mark on a consistent basis.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

zeke4351 said:


> I figure a person is most likely to have to use his gun from road rage or car jacking. A lot of idiots on the road these days. I carry a .357 Sig and if I need to shoot through my windshield or rolled up window I feel it is the best I can carry.


You are right about the road rage. I have seen it so many times in ATL. I borrowed my dad's car and someone tried to car jack me 2 times in one night in Atlanta back in the 90's. I am glad that just showing my G19 scared them off. They brought a knife to a gun fight in one case and the other guy wanted to yank me out of the Altima.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

Donn said:


> All due respect Shao, you're overthinking this. Unless you're an active duty LEO, high profile security or consciously go looking for trouble, you'll likely never be involved in a gun fight or ever have to draw your weapon. The fact that you're aware of the limits of any handgun round puts you a step ahead of a lot of people who carry. Practice, yes. Constant awareness of the world around you, of course. Don't let You Tube vids dictate the way you live your life. They're the exception, not the rule. Watch too many and you'll never leave the house.


I use to have lots of trouble from people in OC.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

shaolin said:


> st I am glad that the officer survived. *This proves to me that a person shot in the leg does not fall down.* Wow to the person who shot 7 men and killing 5 as I never known an Agent or Officer to be involved in that many shootings.
> The 1911 is a wonderful platform and I own 2 of them a Kimber and S&W and the S&W shoots more accurately than the Kimber for me. I do carry the 1911 sometimes but I don't like a Safety on my carry gun but I guess with practice it would be second nature to take it off. If I knew I was going to be in a shootout then I would want a 1911 for sure as it puts rounds on target fast and accurately. I can do it also with my Sig P228 and S&W 3913 too and I just love the 9mm. If I need more power then I have loads up to the +p+ from Underwood 124 gr, Winchester 127gr, and 9BPLE 115 gr. I've seen that 115 absolutely destroy targets and gel blocks but it does shed weight as it travels through things. I want to do some denim/water jug test to see expansion on the other rounds. My main carry load it the 124/147 HST or 124+p Gold Dot. I use the Gold dots for home defense guns with a 4" or longer barrel and the HST for my Shield/3913 EDC because they expand from a 3" barrel and get to the 12"-15" mark on a consistent basis.


That police office did fall down when he was hit in the leg but he was able to get his gun out as he was going down (probably began his draw when he saw the BG's gun) and shoot the BG in the chest.

I have two 1911's and a Browning Hi-Power Mark III-S. My Kimber is a .45ACP and my Springfield A1 is in 9mm. The Springfield has had about $400 of custom work, not by me, and is quite accurate.

I'll be hitting the range this morning with my gen3 Glock 19 and my gen4 Glock 17. This is only the second time for me to the range since March 3 because of a partial knee replacement. Physical Therapy for both me and my wife and doctor's appointments and followups have gotten in the way (the indoor range I go to is only open in the mornings on Mondays and Fridays during the work week). I know I'll be rusty because I was two weeks ago. But what the hey. I can still hit a target enough to defend myself and that is important to me. I just need to get some rust off.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Over-thinking self defense is completely normal when a person first decides to give himself the lethal force option. It is a life-changing decision, in many ways, and nobody really knows how much emphasis to place on each element of it, unless they have been in gunfights. Even then, gunfights are not all the same, and what works for one situation may fail entirely, in another situation. One must eventually come down to earth, though, and devise a self defense scheme that he can live with and stick to, on a daily basis, based on his perceived threat level. Basically, it's a crapshoot, as evidenced by the fact that so-called 'professionals' get killed in gunfights with idiots on a regular basis. You cannot prepare for every eventuality, and everyone cannot execute precisely when under great stress. However, it is a fact that the more training and knowledge you possess, the more likely you are to execute properly and adapt to changing situations.

Fortunately, besides being the best available option for most encounters with humans or animals who want to end your life, guns are fun. So, in addition to carrying one to give yourself additional self-defense options, a person can make self-defense a useful hobby. Of course, on the downside, hobbyists will always argue with one another about equipment and methods, and the various subtleties involved in perfecting their 'craft.' This is a lot of fun for them and interested lurkers, who have neither the means nor inclination to explore their hobbies in such detail. But, on the upside, anything you can learn about your weapons and methods may aid you in some encounter you could possibly have, and it harms nothing...as long as you don't neglect reality, in favor of theory.

The effect of firing a bullet (or multiple bullets) into an attacker will likely be somewhat different in every case. It can be compared to a hunting situation, just to give a general idea of this. I hunt whitetail deer, and have always found it puzzling that every one I have shot has reacted differently, despite my efforts to make all of my shots perfect. I've gotten better at this, through the years (or maybe have just become more cold-blooded?), but I still cannot predict how a deer will react to being shot. The last three deer I have taken were all shot with a Model 70 Winchester and a hand loaded 165 grain Nosler ballistic tip bullet in .30-06. All were approximately the same size, and all were less than 120 yards away, and all were either standing or walking broadside to me at the same angle. All were shot in the heart, with no lung being punctured, and neither shoulder was hit. All died quickly of massive blood pressure drop. One never took a single step, simply 'corkscrewing' into a heap. Both of the other two bolted, as if missed entirely. One continued down the game trail and collapsed at about 40 yards from the point of impact, and the other made it about 30 feet into some thick brush, before collapsing.

Now, a deer is not a human being, but what this example tells me is that, even when the many variables are removed, each individual will react differently to being shot. It's logical to assume this about humans, too, and when you throw in about hundred variables (including your attacker being armed), it's hard to predict what might happen, regardless of equipment, ammo, and shot placement. That being the case, the reality is that anything you do might or might not have the effect you are hoping for. So, you try to weight the equation in your favor by having good equipment of sufficient power, and practice with it, and you don't stop shooting and moving until the threat ends. Running away is also a practical solution, if the opportunity presents itself.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Bisley said:


> Over-thinking self defense is completely normal when a person first decides to give himself the lethal force option. It is a life-changing decision, in many ways, and nobody really knows how much emphasis to place on each element of it, unless they have been in gunfights. Even then, gunfights are not all the same, and what works for one situation may fail entirely, in another situation. One must eventually come down to earth, though, and devise a self defense scheme that he can live with and stick to, on a daily basis, based on his perceived threat level. Basically, it's a crapshoot, as evidenced by the fact that so-called 'professionals' get killed in gunfights with idiots on a regular basis. You cannot prepare for every eventuality, and everyone cannot execute precisely when under great stress. However, it is a fact that the more training and knowledge you possess, the more likely you are to execute properly and adapt to changing situations.
> 
> Fortunately, besides being the best available option for most encounters with humans or animals who want to end your life, guns are fun. So, in addition to carrying one to give yourself additional self-defense options, a person can make self-defense a useful hobby. Of course, on the downside, hobbyists will always argue with one another about equipment and methods, and the various subtleties involved in perfecting their 'craft.' This is a lot of fun for them and interested lurkers, who have neither the means nor inclination to explore their hobbies in such detail. But, on the upside, anything you can learn about your weapons and methods may aid you in some encounter you could possibly have, and it harms nothing...as long as you don't neglect reality, in favor of theory.
> 
> ...


You, sir, have just written an excellent post on a topic that gets a lot of attention and tends to spew a lot of misguided information. You and I think pretty much exactly alike on this and these issues and I have also written the same things you have written here.

Great job, great use of the English language, and.... well, you basically hit the proverbial nail on the head.


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## rustygun (Apr 8, 2013)

That was an excellent post Bisley. Thank you for sharing your WISDOM.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

One of the best posts i've read in a long time on here... agree completely. 

Really like your "Don't neglect reality, in favor of theory" line.


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## shaolin (Dec 31, 2012)

I can relate to the deer hunting because I too have seen them drop like they have been hit with a death ray and at time through both lungs and they run 50 yards before they die. A crook is the ultimate varmint and the "what if" could go on for decades. In reality I just wanted to see where some of the other members stood on this topic and incorporate some useful ideas to my plan.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

shaolin said:


> I can relate to the deer hunting because I too have seen them drop like they have been hit with a death ray and at time through both lungs and they run 50 yards before they die. A crook is the ultimate varmint and the "what if" could go on for decades. In reality I just wanted to see where some of the other members stood on this topic and incorporate some useful ideas to my plan.


I think you received some good thoughts and opinions. Most revolve around the fact that you just cannot definitively predict what a BG will do, or what you will do and how you will fair, when the shooting starts. Carry and use what you have determined to be the best for your specific wants, needs, and requirements and train often. After that, it's up to you and how it all comes out after the smoke clears.


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