# modifications



## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

Be careful in making any modifications to you carry gun. It could really hurt you if you have to use it. I've been reading about a lot of cases when someone uses their gun in self defense and they get sued because they lighten the trigger pull. I’m doing this to my Glock 21c because I will never carry it, it’s to dam big.


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

Yes I ALWAYS put night sights on my caryy weapons. I've polished the feeds ramps on a couple as well.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

My carry gun is a custom 4" 1911, so I'd say it's been modified. 8)


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Does puttin' bullets in it count as a mod? :-D :-D :-D :-D Just kiddin'.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

I don't think night sites count or polish the ramp, thats cleaning maint. in my book. Most of the stuff I read was on tigger pulls and I don't think I'd want to carry a comp 1911 even though that would be my gun of choice. You can even get in trouble shooting someone with your own reloads.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

spacedoggy said:


> You can even get in trouble shooting someone with your own reloads.


Where did you hear or read that? I've heard this for years and have never been able to find a single legitimate source that verifies this.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Yes, I agree. I posted the same on another thread...


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## P97 (May 8, 2006)

I put a high visibility front sight on mine and had it engraved. Don't think that would be considered altering it, even though it helps me shoot it better in low light.


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

I'd also like to see some verification that modifications would get you in trouble.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Mods. have nothing,nada,zip,zilch,and zero to do with the decision of Flipping off the safety,squeezing the grip and pulling the trigger. :? :?


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

10-4


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## Vom Kriege (May 5, 2006)

justification, justification, justification


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

First I’m new to forums on the internet and got lucky with this one being one of the first. I have read a lot of articles on the internet involving gun issues and I don’t always believe what I read or I would be a gun control freak. I searched for some of the stuff I’ve read within the last week and gave up after an hour. Then I’m sitting on my throne and start reading for the tenth time the magazine COMBAT HANDGUNS. Time to buy new ones. It has an article by Massad Ayoob titled LIGHT TRIGGER LIABILITY (Why “hair triggers” can hang you in court-four case reports give fair warning!) After reading this I myself would not carry a gun that has had the trigger adjusted just to be on the safe side. I would practice with the one I carry to where a light trigger pull is not needed. On the other side a light pull might save your life in a bad situation. I’m going to change my G21c to a 3.5 lb pull to see what it’s like and hope it helps when I get into competition.
There are so many anti-gun people in our justice system and a lot of DA’s are anti-gun. I thought this to be a good topic even if it’s been brought up in other forums. I think the poll results are interesting.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

OK, I have heard (and I believe read) that article, but outside of that, I have never really seen any concrete evidence. Anyway, it is something that is said all the time, and I have prev worried about it. But, as long as you make the right statements after a righteuos shoot, I don't think it would matter


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> OK, I have heard (and I believe read) that article, but outside of that, I have never really seen any concrete evidence.


It's still not evidence, it is just an opinion.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

2400 said:


> Shipwreck said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I have heard (and I believe read) that article, but outside of that, I have never really seen any concrete evidence.
> ...


Well, I've decided to stay indoors and never go outside again - That way, I have a less chance to be sued


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

What it all boils down to is A-hole lawyers twisting the truth to suit their wants.


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## spacedoggy (May 11, 2006)

The "Castle Doctrine" simply says that if a criminal breaks into your home, your occupied vehicle or your place of business, you may presume he is there to do bodily harm and you may use any force against him.

It also removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be.

Furthermore, this law provides protection from criminal prosecution and civil litigation for those who defend themselves from criminal attack.

Does your state have the Castle Doctrine. My reason for bringing this up is the fact that people who do defend themselfs often get prosecuted and civil action brought agaisnt them.

I talked with a long time friend and he remembers the same case in Austin, TX in 1980 were a guy shot and killed a armed man in his home and the family of the person killed got a large reward, forgot how much for using reloads. He had no criminal action they ruled the shooting was good. But he's broke for using reloads.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

spacedoggy said:


> I talked with a long time friend and he remembers the same case in Austin, TX in 1980 were a guy shot and killed a armed man in his home and the family of the person killed got a large reward, forgot how much for using reloads. He had no criminal action they ruled the shooting was good. But he's broke for using reloads.


Do you have a link to this story?


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

Linky, linky come see me.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Charlie said:


> Linky, linky come see me.


Don't hold your breath Charlie. I've heard this story for many years and I've never seen a link yet.


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

10-4


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## A_J (May 22, 2006)

Other than night sights, I generally lean away from mods to a carry gun..

Lawyers can/will try anything-
"Gee, Mr. Smith, your gun is black.. In our culture, black is often regarded as representing evil. Are you evil?"

Also, heavily modifying the internals can affect reliabilty if not done right. As much as I might think that me or my local smith might be able to make a gun work better, the engineers who designed it lived, ate, and breathed with it in their head for a few years.

Whereas with nightsights, you can at least use the rationale: "I put them on to better identify my target and improve my accuracy in a stressful situation, so as to reduce the risk to innocent bystanders.." Also, you can get nightsights as OEM from the factory, so they're legal dept. probably gave it some examination.

Oh, and not that it's automatically true, but Ayoob discusses a 1989 case involving handloads and the troubles it caused in the May/June 06 American Handgunner..


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

"If it wasn't for lawyers, we probably wouldn't need lawyers."


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## Vom Kriege (May 5, 2006)

spacedoggy said:


> First I'm new to forums on the internet and got lucky with this one being one of the first. I have read a lot of articles on the internet involving gun issues and I don't always believe what I read or I would be a gun control freak. I searched for some of the stuff I've read within the last week and gave up after an hour. Then I'm sitting on my throne and start reading for the tenth time the magazine COMBAT HANDGUNS. Time to buy new ones. It has an article by Massad Ayoob titled LIGHT TRIGGER LIABILITY (Why "hair triggers" can hang you in court-four case reports give fair warning!) After reading this I myself would not carry a gun that has had the trigger adjusted just to be on the safe side. I would practice with the one I carry to where a light trigger pull is not needed. On the other side a light pull might save your life in a bad situation. I'm going to change my G21c to a 3.5 lb pull to see what it's like and hope it helps when I get into competition.
> There are so many anti-gun people in our justice system and a lot of DA's are anti-gun. I thought this to be a good topic even if it's been brought up in other forums. I think the poll results are interesting.


It's just my personal opinion, but I don't put much weight into Ayoob's pronouncements.


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

This will always be a topic for much discussion. And there is certainly not anything wrong with continued discussion, especially since, in this forum at least, it has been done very politely and tastefully. 
I personally don't think the question will ever be answered as to the liability of modifications on a pistol used for self defense until we see something on hard copy from the courts. Gun mags and writers love throwing this around and that's OK. I just wish somebody, anybody, would give us one little positive linky that we could trust that would sway me a little. 
Oh by the way, I don't want to offend anyone but puttin' a 3.5 lb trigger on a Glock will in no way make it a "hair trigger", IMHO. Changing a 5.5 lb. single action trigger to a 3.5 lb. single action trigger MAY make a difference in a crisis situation but I would bet not. I've owned 5 different Glocks in the last 9 years, most with 5.5 lb. triggers and one with a 3.5 lb. trigger. There is no way you're gonna accidently pull one quicker than the other. If you're gonna' over-react, you're gonna over-react! 

Rant off. :goofy:


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

One more thing. What we are discussing here is based on logic and some common sense, and we can all see that. But courts, judges, & lawyers are NOT bound by common sense or logic. Many times (seemingly getting to be more and more) logic and common sense have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the outcomes of court cases. I personally have lost all faith in our judges and court system. I know several good, intelligent, logical people that became judges and within six months whatever part of the brain deals in logic had totally disintegrated. 



Ok, OK, really.......rant is OFF.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Vom Kriege said:


> It's just my personal opinion, but I don't put much weight into Ayoob's pronouncements.


+1 :watching:


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

> It's just my personal opinion, but I don't put much weight into Ayoob's pronouncements


+1 The guy can tell a good story though.....



> This will always be a topic for much discussion. And there is certainly not anything wrong with continued discussion, especially since, in this forum at least, it has been done very politely and tastefully.
> I personally don't think the question will ever be answered as to the liability of modifications on a pistol used for self defense until we see something on hard copy from the courts. Gun mags and writers love throwing this around and that's OK. I just wish somebody, anybody, would give us one little positive linky that we could trust that would sway me a little.
> Oh by the way, I don't want to offend anyone but puttin' a 3.5 lb trigger on a Glock will in no way make it a "hair trigger", IMHO. Changing a 5.5 lb. single action trigger to a 3.5 lb. single action trigger MAY make a difference in a crisis situation but I would bet not. I've owned 5 different Glocks in the last 9 years, most with 5.5 lb. triggers and one with a 3.5 lb. trigger. There is no way you're gonna accidently pull one quicker than the other. If you're gonna' over-react, you're gonna over-react!


+1 again. I think a lot is going to depend on the 'cultue' where the 'incident' takes place. The A-hole lawyers know what they can get away with, and where they can get away with it!!!!

Know what you call 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean...........a good start. :-D


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## L8models (May 5, 2006)

I have never really been much on modifications. I guess if I owned a 1911 that would be a different story. I am sure it would..lol I bought both my XD-40 and my Sig P220 with Night Sights already installed. I love them and couldn't see having a carry weapon without them. I've also thought about installing a tactical light on my XD but, I can't justify doing so. I have a good flashlight by my side for anything that might go bump in the night and every where I carry, night sights are sufficient most of the time.


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## awall (Jun 15, 2006)

spacedoggy said:


> I don't think night sites count or polish the ramp, thats cleaning maint. in my book. Most of the stuff I read was on tigger pulls and I don't think I'd want to carry a comp 1911 even though that would be my gun of choice. You can even get in trouble shooting someone with your own reloads.


I don't think you would get in trouble with reloads as long as you stayed within the specs for the round you are loading. Where using factory ammo helps is if you do ge into a lawsuit, the ammo manufaturer would also have their lawyer there to defend themselves. In a lawsuit every party involved gets sued. Gun maunufacturer, ammo manufacturer and you. If you shoot reloads or modify your weapon you will be on your own.


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## michael t (Jan 26, 2006)

article by Massad Ayoob titled LIGHT TRIGGER LIABILITY 
This man makes a living off writing been scaring people since 80's that I know of. Their might be a case here and their but I'm not going to loose sleep over it.

I have ask people to show me a case where a person took 2 hits from a 380 HP in chest and went on to serious injure of kill the person with 380. 
Once again likely it has happened but no one has ever showed me a actual case. Several where ball failed went clean thru still waiting on the HP.. Yet people will tell you in 380 only use ball. 

People can sue you for anything. In some states , they can arrest you. On word of a person and a claimed witness. I know this as fact from personal experiance. In other words Bubba and bubbas boyfriend can say you assualted him and guess who will get arrested and have to prove he didn't do it.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2006)

When i'm 21 I plan on using my good old reliable Security Six and what I plan on doing is cutting the spur off the hammer and polishing it. That way I will have a DA only revolver. Then I wont have to worry about it snagging on anything if God forbid I have to use it as self defense.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

*Maser..*

Im 48 and i can safely say from experience that by the time you turn 21 (if you live long enough in kalifornistan to turn 21) your taste in firearms will have probably changed SEVERAL times :roll: :roll:


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Maser..*



scooter said:


> Im 48 and i can safely say from experience that by the time you turn 21 (if you live long enough in kalifornistan to turn 21) your taste in firearms will have probably changed SEVERAL times :roll: :roll:


Ain't that the truth. I kinda changed out all my older guns last year because I wanted a change. And, I was working an extra job last year - watching the community service workers pick up trash on the highway - I made $21+ an hour, and it was just 5 hours every Sat. So, I got the opportunity to use that money for many guns. Some I kept, some I didn't like for vaarious reasons, and traded them away. I only did that job to fund my gun collection.

After a year of it, I was tired of doing it every Sat. But now, I miss the money.

I'd like to find an extra 1 day a week p/t job again - but any kind of job will only pay $6-$8 for that - I won't find a sweet deal like that again ($21+ an hour) - I don't work for that particular county anymore, so I can't get it back. And, my county only gives comp time for doing it on Saturdays. They won't actually pay you the overtime.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2006)

I doubt my tastes in guns will change. I have always liked revolvers over semi autos. Also I have developed lots of experience with the Security Six. Shooting it DA mode is a dream for me and I am relativly accurate with it. Sure, I only have 6 shots, but those shots will always be there and not jam like a semi auto can. :wink: 

The funny thing about me and handguns that has changed is the fact that when I was younger I used to get a big kick (literally) out of shooting big guns such as .454 casull or .50AE. Nowadays I am more happier shooting .38 specials.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

Maser said:


> I doubt my tastes in guns will change. I have always liked revolvers over semi autos. Also I have developed lots of experience with the Security Six. Shooting it DA mode is a dream for me and I am relativly accurate with it. Sure, I only have 6 shots, but those shots will always be there and not jam like a semi auto can. :wink:
> 
> The funny thing about me and handguns that has changed is the fact that when I was younger I used to get a big kick (literally) out of shooting big guns such as .454 casull or .50AE. Nowadays I am more happier shooting .38 specials.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hberttmank
Welcome Maser. Lots of good info to be found on this site. Everyone needs at least one 1911.

Yeah, i'm soaking up the info so far like a sponge. Honestly, when I turn 21 I want my first handgun I buy to be a .50AE Desert Eagle with titanium finish, but now after reading about 1911s, I think I may just have to change my mind.

???


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

2400 said:


> Maser said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt my tastes in guns will change. I have always liked revolvers over semi autos. Also I have developed lots of experience with the Security Six. Shooting it DA mode is a dream for me and I am relativly accurate with it. Sure, I only have 6 shots, but those shots will always be there and not jam like a semi auto can. :wink:
> ...


I won't even get into the research I've been doing the last couple days. Just stick with your "????" and leave it at that. Trust me.


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## 2400 (Feb 4, 2006)

jwkimber45 said:


> I won't even get into the research I've been doing the last couple days. Just stick with your "????" and leave it at that. Trust me.


I wasn't doing any research, it's not worth the effort. I ran across that this morning on the 1911 forum.


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

I'm with ya, curiosity got the best of me........


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2006)

Am I missing something here? :?


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## -gunut- (May 8, 2006)

Couldn't you just have a mod trigger and say it is that way because it is your target pistol?


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## VegasEgo (Jul 10, 2006)

there is a couple good articles about hair triggers in Comabt Handguns June, on page 8. They have some cases where someone got sued for having the hair trigger and wat not.


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## -gunut- (May 8, 2006)

What if you carry a pistol that comes with a match trigger? like my HK Tac?


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## Grayfox (Jul 14, 2006)

I do limited mods on my carry guns. On revolvers I'll probably change the grips and do a trigger job to smooth the action. On my 1911s I add a beavertail, long trigger, maybe change the mainspring housing and again do an action job to smooth the trigger.
However, I DO NOT lighten the trigger. The reason being that when the heart starts pumping and the adrenaline starts flowing I don't want to fire by accident. Intentionally shooting someone is one thing, shooting someone by accident is entirely different.


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## michael t (Jan 26, 2006)

A writer for Combat Handguns has made a good living off these scare tatics. Best thing you can do is stop reading that trash. It will sink in you brain and in time of true need you might just pause for a split sec. because you mind flashed to some of this crap . Then you die wondering how you got taken.


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## Clyde (Jul 13, 2006)

Back to ? at hand

Carry Mods

Revolvers - Triggers Rounded and polished

Glocks - Replace sights (Like Heinie Sights)

1911 - One stock (One Not)

HK - Stock


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

No mods on the carry gun. If I get a gun strictly for target and not carry then I will get the trigger done.


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## gene (May 6, 2006)

*poll*

yes


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

michael t said:


> A writer for Combat Handguns has made a good living off these scare tatics. Best thing you can do is stop reading that trash. It will sink in you brain and in time of true need you might just pause for a split sec. because you mind flashed to some of this crap . Then you die wondering how you got taken.


While i certainly don't agree with a lot of what "A writer" has written. Some of it is quite entertaining. :mrgreen:

Do what you feel you need to to keep you and your family safe. Figure the rest out later.


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## Dave James (May 15, 2007)

IF its a self defense weapon I tend to shy away from home modifications, any I have done are by trained smiths and I hold on to the paper work ,

Have read Ayoob and read the cases he quotes,,Can it happen yes,but I think its more the failure of the people involved to understand that their lawyers are selling them down the river on not smart enough to counter the prosecution.


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## Ram Rod (Jan 16, 2008)

I modify all of my pistols in one way or another from adding night sights, to guide rods, grip screws, better springs, smoothing the trigger......


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## wjh2657 (Jun 18, 2008)

I put a Glock Parts NY1 trigger in my G23. Makes the trigger heavier not lighter. I did this primarily because I pocket carry and I had some worries about too light a trigger pull and pulling gun from pocket. Yes I know finger stays out of trigger guard until aimed, but in pocket carry there is always a chance of something on clothing snagging trigger. All of my other EDCs are DAO snubbies and I am used to heavy trigger pull. As some G23s come with that spring stock, I don't think it will come back to haunt me in litigation, I' m sure as hell not going to tell them I changed it!


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

2400 said:


> Where did you hear or read that? I've heard this for years and have never been able to find a single legitimate source that verifies this.


I've had a couple leo friends of mine that said some courts will look at a situation differently if you are using reloads. Seems it shows you are thinking ahead and trying to kill someone when you shoot them. Yeah..I thought that too:smt082

I used ot not carry reloads but I have reloaded JHP ammo I have some good carry ammo but I see a good price on some pretty nice HPs and I'll run em off and carry them. I would really like to see it explained in a court that it's pre-meditated if you reload carry loads. I mean..I figured that you get to the point where your carry weapon has to come out one would want to make the shot that insure the BG isn't going to get up and get you down.

Most anyone I know that carries hopes above all else that they never have to actually use their weapon. I don't think it should matter if you made the round or not.


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

Night sights, so yes. As for "trigger jobs" and other "action" mods, no. Springs are subjective as they wear and get replaced because at the beginning of their service life they are stiffer than after 5k rounds have been digested.


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## knoxrocks222 (May 1, 2008)

dead men tell no tails or sue for that matter, thats all i have to say about that. if i ever have to shoot someone there will be no asking him what happened cause if i ever have to use my gun (god forbid) it will be to eliminate the threat


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## Growler67 (Sep 8, 2008)

knoxrocks222 said:


> dead men tell no tails or sue for that matter, thats all i have to say about that. if i ever have to shoot someone there will be no asking him what happened cause if i ever have to use my gun (god forbid) it will be to eliminate the threat


Even in Colorado with the "Make My Day Law", you are only exempt from criminal prosecution (not all states have this much protection available to lawful gun owners). Civil lawsuits can still be applied by surviving family and in this litigous society, one can almost expect to have to defend ones self a second time because of it. Not to mention that your God (or any for that matter) will show up in court in your defense.


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## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

The thing that any mod can do is give the lawyers something to say as your PRIOR INTENT...It is kind of like a catch 22....you carry a 9mm or a .380..You do your own reloads...you make the ammo better to stop the threat (different bullet config, different powder to increase velocity, etc) What you want to do is increase your chance to stop the threat sooner versus carry a bigger gun (like a .40 or .45 or bigger)...you see it as a way to better stop the threat and to save more lives. The lawyer will turn it around to make it look like you hopped your gun up to make it easier to kill someone..if they can couple that with ANY other factors that make a jury stop and think about it, they may have gained an edge...bad thing is if you carry a small pistol with plain jane ammo and you fail to stop the threat and end up getting killed, the opinion will be that you were not knowledgeable enough to carry the right gun or the right ammo...you (or others) end up dead...

Now if you put a lighter trigger in and someone gets shot by you and seriously injured or killed it could make a difference in some cases...

Let's say someone is charging with a knife, you pull your gun and engage the target and you end up shooting the person, they could possibly say that Mr X pulled his gun to defend himself as Mr Y approached with his knife. In seeing the gun, Mr Y started to stop his attack, but MrX in the moment of duress accidentally shot his gun, due the the trigger modifications and killed Mr Y....Mr X saw the threat by Mr Y and in fear of his life drew his gun to defend himself...As to the truth of Mr Y stopping his attack, they could draw a conclusion or if there are witnesses who could say a variety of things....Then police confiscate the gun for an investigation...The family's lawers have the gun checked with a stock gun and find the trigger pull is substantially lighter...Things get twisted and they build the whole case around it...


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## Redwolf (Nov 29, 2008)

Boy thats a mouthfull willy, I started a thread a while back http://handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=16808 
about loading your own ammo for carry, everyone wants proof and no one has it. Got it. But if you ever read the laws its not illegal but we are not dealing with criminal law here we're dealing with civil. As with someone else brought up maybe 2% carry whats your chances to get one to judge you in court, slim to none. I'm not willingly going to bet my house, harley or my gun collection to try my luck at home loaded ammo or a modified weapon, but I do bet my life on my factory M&P and stock ammo.


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

If you are with-in the law and feel the need to shoot somebody dead I don't see the point??? Will a crappy trigger or under powered ammo make him a bit less dead? I shot the SOB cause he was busting the glass outa the door of my Ford with a tire iron and he looked pretty crazed. I know, I know....them frickin law dogs can make the sky look yellow and make you think that's the way it should be. You are in for a heap of due no matter how "RIGHT" you were in pulling the bang switch in the first place. It's just a fact. You are guilty until proven otherwise no matter what the law says. I'd bet 90% of the time you are gonna give up your gun and go for a ride you didn't plan on and most likely spend the night in a strang locked room.
Here's hoping none of us ever have to go bang bang your dead to some scumbag.


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