# Need advice please



## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

HI ALL!!

I know that this kind of question has been asked and answered a million times, but figuring hand gun choice is a very personal decision, I have to ask it anyway.

I post in the New To Handguns Area because it's been 28+ years since I was in the service and I'm assuming a lot has changed.

I'm looking for a "first" pistol. Again, it not really my first, but it's been so long it might as well be. In the 1970s/early 80's I owned an S&W 9mm, and carried a S&W .38 service weapon as air crew on a couple of different Air Force aircraft. I fired expert with the .38 and M16 back in the day. (note that, that means squat, but I thought I'd brag a little. sorry)

The last couple of weeks has been spent been researching a lot and it's time to start asking for some help. I took a hand gun safety course a few months back just for fun and to do a little shooting. In that class I shot 1911 .45 and loved it. Today I took my son (24) down to the range and he and I retook the course with the same instructors and rented 3 guns. M&P Shield, P226 and P2022. All in 9MM. I was most accurate with the Shield despite it being a carry weapon. 

Going to go rent next week again, and try 3 more. I'm ultimately in the market for 2 guns. 1st will a home defense weapon and something I can go shoot at the range. Later one for a CCW weapon. So for now I'll be sticking to full frame weapons. I also may end up with a 3rd, if the wife decides she likes it after I get her into a safety class and she can shoot a little.

Anyway, back to rentals. I liked the P2022 more than the P226. Next to try are going to be probably the XD, M&P, and Glock 17. Again all in 9mm. NOTE: I think I'm going to stick with 9mm to start. If the wife takes it up, she'll be more comfortable with a less snappy recoil, and I'd like to keep to a single caliber for simplicity sake. (IF THATS TOTAL BOGUS THINKING PLEASE SAY SO!!).

With all that being said, any other highly suggested guns I should think about. One thing to keep in mind, I'm a pretty good sized guy and have large hands.

Any how, Thanks for listening and any suggestions greatly appreciated.


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

First off, thank you for your service! Secondly, if your like me with large hands, I prefer a pistol that is a little on the larger size than most would carry. I had a SP2022, but it was in .40 S&W...it shot well and carried fine IF you invested in a good quality holster and belt. No matter what you decide on, make sure you invest in a good holster and a better belt...this seems to be the biggest mistake people make. I have been carrying concealed since I got out of the Marines back in 87', so I have learned the hard way about crappy equipment.

The S&W Shield is a fine weapon, I have one in 9mm. I have had it for about ten months now, and have ran about 500 rounds with it. It has functioned 99% so far...had a few bobbles with 147 grain Winchesters, but everything else has ran 100%, both FMJ and JHP's.

We are lucky now to have such a selection in handguns now, and most of them are solid choices. Sounds like you are doing your homework, and being able to rent them to shoot first is a big help. When you decide on your gun, post up some pics...we like those here! :mrgreen:


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

Try shooting a Ruger SR9. They are really well made, and can be had at a decent price. I know you have restrictions on what California will allow in there, and the list may be limited. The Shlled wouldn't be a bad choice if you liked it. You can also find 1911s chambered in 9mm from many manufacturers.

berrettatoter makes some great points!!


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## berettatoter (Sep 1, 2011)

MoMan said:


> Try shooting a Ruger SR9. They are really well made, and can be had at a decent price. I know you have restrictions on what California will allow in there, and the list may be limited. The Shlled wouldn't be a bad choice if you liked it. You can also find 1911s chambered in 9mm from many manufacturers.
> 
> berrettatoter makes some great points!!


Aww shucks! Lol. Well, berettatoter tried to do the "cheap" rout, back when he was a newbie carrier...epic fail. Now, like the PT 92 AF the wife bought me for Christmas, I spent another 60 dollars on another 5.11 gun belt, and another 72 dollars on the Bianchi OWB leather to carry that pig in! :smt033


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## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

You're off to a good start with firing different makes at the range. The one for you would probably be the one that you can handle the best and get the best target grouping.
Wife might need a smaller frame gun, having her shoot at the range will help her determine what she can use to best effect.
Review the laws in your state pertaining to defensive use of a firearm and regarding concealed carry. (ask at the range to see if there are any legal education classes in the area for handgun owners.)


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Yes, you are correct, the topic is probably the most mentioned/requested. If you do a search on this forum you will find a wealth of information that should be helpful.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I think you have a very realistic approach to your situation. One of the best thought through I've seen. 

1) There are MANY full size 9mm pistols out there that will do the job for home defense. Since you've chosen 9mm I'll certainly second the Ruger SR9. High value, low dollar gun like all Ruger products. I read a large Ruger forum every day and the SR9 family (full size and compact) are very reliable and strong like bull. You can't go wrong with a Ruger, certainly for the price. You'll NEVER wear it out. There is also a SR40 which is a very slightly larger gun (slightly bigger slide). 

2) 1911's are more popular than ever. In fact I use a 'commander' size 1911 for my carry weapon. However, for the average home defender I think the SR9 is a better choice. 

3) If/When you get to a carry weapon you could certainly use a SR9c (compact) model. The barrel is shorter and the grip is shorter (less rounds) BUT you can put the bigger/longer mag from the full size (see above) in it too and then it will feel/shoot just like a standard SR9. So in a way you have the best of both worlds and you only have to learn ONE trigger and maintain ONE type of gun.

4) I'm a big guy with big hands too and I've always liked the feel of the SR family. Aftermarket holsters and sites are available too unlike some guns with smaller production runs. 

Good Luck!
USAF 71-74, F-4's
Luke, Kunsan, Korat, Holloman.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

Thank you all. 

I will put the Ruger on my list to try out. I had not thought about the Rugers before. Probably in built bias based on an old Ruger .22lr I had as a kid. 

The Taurus doesn't appear to have many guns on the CA list, or our best local gun dealer doesn't have many anyway. I'll see what they have at the range.

***Off Topic***

Spike, thank you for your service. Btw, I know Kunsan well. Many nights out in the 'ville there while on TDYs. My daughter lives just north of Luke.

BerettaToter, also, thank you for your service. If you separated in '87, I'd bet we could spend a bit of time playing "where you there". I separated in '87 as well. The last 5 years of my time in I was stationed in Clark AB RPI, but I was deployed or on TDY about 11 months a year, and 80% of that was in support of some Marine operation.

Thanks,
Steve


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I would IMO look seriously at the DA/SA design as in the sig 226. 

It's a safer design IMO.

Imagine cocking back the trigger on your old smith wheel gun and bolstering the gun cocked,, that resembles many striker fired handguns already in the fully cocked or partially cocked position. 

There is nothing wrong with the internal striker fired platform, just be aware of what you have in choosing your handgun.

The old saying just keep your finger off the trigger is a very weak justification for a potential accident. 

Remember, you have to weigh the percentages of a possible self defense action verses the odds of a potential accidental/ negligent discharge. 

Good luck in your choice,
:smt1099


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

thanks for your service. glad you are back in the fold

I am NOT a fan of the 2022. that said I LOVE my Sig p225. I am really a striker fired CCW to be honest though

presently (9month carry) is a glock 19. for summer carry a walther ccp or a S+W shield or a SA XD-s(all 9mm)

for the range I LOVE walthers ppq(some carry it too) and the HK VP9. lot of choices. You need to find what is reliable , what fits your hands and your sons, in your state what is approved ,of course) and rent them until one stands out to you both


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Cuthahotha said:


> Thank you all.
> 
> I will put the Ruger on my list to try out. I had not thought about the Rugers before. Probably in built bias based on an old Ruger .22lr I had as a kid.
> 
> ...


I don't know what type of gun to recommend to you other than staying away from Taurus. There have been just too many issues with them. You can't go wrong with HK, Glock, Sig, FNH, S&W, Ruger, CZ, Colt, or Springfield. Just pick one of those that feels right for you. Only you can decide that.

If at all possible you might want to consider getting out of California. The situation there regarding the 2nd Amendment will only get worse. Arizona where I am is just across the Colorado River. You can own just about any type of firearm that your heart's desire. No waiting periods, no lists, no registration. You can walk into a gun store fill out Form 4473 they run a NICS check and out the door you go. If you have a *C*oncealed *W*eapons *P*ermit. The NICS check is waived. CWP's however are optional and not required by law to carry either openly or concealed in Arizona.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

M


desertman said:


> I don't know what type of gun to recommend to you other than staying away from Taurus. There have been just too many issues with them. You can't go wrong with HK, Glock, Sig, S&W, Ruger, CZ, Colt, or Springfield.
> 
> If at all possible you might want to consider getting out of California. The situation there regarding the 2nd Amendment will only get worse. Arizona where I am is just across the Colorado River. You can own just about any type of firearm that your heart's desire. No waiting periods, no lists, no registration. You can walk into a gun store fill out Form 4473 they run a NICS check and out the door you go. If you have a *C*oncealed *W*eapons *P*ermit. The NICS check is waived. CWP's however are optional and not required by law to carry either openly or concealed in Arizona.


He's not asking for a change of address or a rental U haul,lol,


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

:smt033. ,,Here we go that ARIZONA CRAP AGAIN
(Tease)


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> Here we go that ARIZONA CRAP AGAIN


Sorry, "pic" it is what it is. Don't know where you live but you sound envious. Moving from So Cal to Arizona is really not a big deal. People can stay close to their friends and family and at the same time enjoy all of the freedoms we have in one of America's last bastions of freedom. I'm proud of my state and of the people who have kept it that way.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> Sorry, "pic" it is what it is. Don't know where you live but you sound envious. Moving from So Cal to Arizona is really not a big deal. People can stay close to their friends and family and at the same time enjoy all of the freedoms we have in one of America's last bastions of freedom. I'm proud of my state and of the people who have kept it that way.


Of course I'm envious,, just messing with ya,:smt1099


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

My recommendation for moving to another state.. I would start sending people to a couple of those electoral swing states. 

Get our man "CRUZ" elected


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> Of course I'm envious,, just messing with ya,:smt1099


Well you ought to just pack your bags. There's room for you and any other freedom loving American. You're always welcome and we'd love to have you.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

desertman said:


> Well you ought to just pack your bags. There's room for you and any other freedom loving American. You're always welcome and we'd love to have you.


Thank you, appreciate the welcome.
:smt1099


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

pic said:


> My recommendation for moving to another state.. I would start sending people to a couple of those electoral swing states.
> 
> *Get our man "CRUZ" elected*


*I'll go along with that 1000%!* Not a bad idea regarding the swing states. As people move from California, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, all the anti gun states. Those states will subsequently lose electoral votes. New York has already lost two electoral votes and two congressional seats due to out migration.



> PRINCETON, NJ -- *Each of the 10 states losing congressional seats as a result of the newly announced 2010 census reapportionment process is politically Democratic*, based on a Gallup political identification measure from the first six months of this year. Five of the eight states gaining seats skew Republican.--http://www.gallup.com/poll/145397/States-Losing-Congressional-Seats-Tilt-Democratic.aspx


This can only be good news as far as our side is concerned. California is a lost cause, too many illegal invaders moving in to replace those moving out. It wouldn't surprise me if their state government looks the other way, counts them as citizens and allows them to vote.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

So new to the forums I was not sure how fast the threads would turn into political debates. Not as soon as I would have assumed.

Let me respond to a couple of thoughts and statements. First re: CA. Ya, if I had any choice in the matter I'd be back home in Texas. Unfortunately it just isn't in the cards at the moment. Ultimate goal is to move up to Alaska for summers and Winter in West Texas, but I doubt either will actually happen. So it's CA laws I have to abide by whether I like them or not.

Another comment somewhere along the line is an amendment for CCW nation wide. While I 100% agree that we need reasonable CCW laws and they need to be consistent, I am 100% against any federal government initiatives that force states to do something they do not want to do. That's one of the biggest problems we have is the Supremes are constantly over turning laws the voters of states are enacting. This should be under the governance of each state.

NOW back to fire arms....

Someone on another thread recommended that I stick with Hammer Fired weapons as they are safer. Then I see other people saying that Striker Fired is the safer. I did some searching here and there's some back and forth, but it's not as contentious discussion as I would have thought. I mean, Mac/Windows, IOS/Android, etc spark more debate. Sheesh.

I did find an article about the LASD and that when they switched to Striker Fired their accidental discharge rate went from 12 to 30 in one year. The consensus in the article was because of the lack of training available and that officers were reverting to priori learning under stress situations. eg, they were retrained from "On Target, On Trigger", to on trigger when "Ready to Fire", but when under stress they fell back on training and were not prepared for the reduced trigger pull of the first shot on the M&Ps.

All of that makes sense. But here I am all but new to hand guns after such a long lay off. My thought here is that I'd be better off with one or the other, either a Striker or Hammer, but NOT both. No matter which weapon i get my hand on, they both act the same way.

If that is logical, then it would seem that the Striker is the way to go, since the compact (Shield, XD Mod.2, Glock 19) are all striker. So far it seems like it's easier to find full frame striker than small frame hammer.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Steve


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2015)

Cuthahotha said:


> So new to the forums I was not sure how fast the threads would turn into political debates. Not as soon as I would have assumed.
> 
> Let me respond to a couple of thoughts and statements. First re: CA. Ya, if I had any choice in the matter I'd be back home in Texas. Unfortunately it just isn't in the cards at the moment. Ultimate goal is to move up to Alaska for summers and Winter in West Texas, but I doubt either will actually happen. So it's CA laws I have to abide by whether I like them or not.
> 
> ...


You're correct. A DA/SA hammer-fired auto is inherently safer than a striker-fired auto because the trigger pull on the first shot is around 12 lbs. Glock's standard trigger is around 5.5 lbs & the travel is less. People run into problems with striker-fired pistols when they use a soft leather holster or shove the pistol into a pocket or waistband or purse with other items that can get into the trigger guard & cause the gun to fire. Or, holster the pistol without making sure no clothing, draw strings, etc. get into the holster. When I carry a Glock, I only use a snug-fitting kydex type holster that completely encloses the trigger guard.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

I would avoid the Ruger. Like you, I came back to handguns after a long hiatus. The Ruger was accurate and reliable. It felt great in my hand. I bought one. Then I realize it was "designed by lawyers". It has a feature that prevents firing without a magazine in the gun. It also has a Chiclet sized safety. It's very hard to remove it in a hurry.

I'm going to joint the DA crowd. It's a little harder to learn to shoot well on the first shot. After that, it's better.

I am a huge fan of CZs. If you like a polymer frame, get a P-09. If you want all steel, get a CZ75 or an SP-01. Both the polymer and steel guns can have variable grips or back straps to make the gun fit your hand.

Aside from bomb proof reliability and great accuracy, CZs have simpler controls than Sigs and Berettas. You won't find a CZ with a safety and a decocker on one gun.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Cutha, thanks for the like on the other thread.

It sounds like you have a good start by going to ranges and shops and trying out the myriads of pistols out there.

That is probably the best advice that is given over and over. Opinions are nice, but you have to find what works for you.
That said, IMO the safest pistol is the one YOU are CONFIDENT using. It is the one you find accurate, easy to operate, and reliable.

My preferences are CZ and Beretta [hammer autos], yet I have a sweet Rossi DA revolver in .22WMR that I have no problem hauling as a hiking gun (its also legal for hunting in PA).
I like my CZ PCR for carry, but I am most efficient with my Beretta 84F.

But no matter what I have, its range time, and the help of other shooters that has helped me most.

Another thing that has been a great benefit is having a nice .22 to learn with. For the low cost of ammo, hours of practice can be had to teach you basics of grip, trigger control and countless drills to improve proficiency.

Something you may want to consider is the cost of a pistol with a .22 conversion package, verses the cost of 2 pistols in different chamberings. 
Also if the wife is new to pistols, a .22 is a much nicer introduction than say.... a .44 Automag. [Even an 84F in .380 barks a bit]

**PS if you can find one to try out, look for a CZ83 or Beretta 85F for a nice compact hammer auto.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Everything you have said indicates that you are competent to accomplish your goals without my advice, so I'll just say that I prefer striker fired guns without lever safeties for concealed carry, or almost any 1911 for a range gun. If, however, you decide for something with a lever safety, the CZ-75 variants are great high capacity 9mm pistols, and CZ has a high quality .22 conversion for them. If you liked the Shield, you would also like the Springfield XDs, and in my experience it has a better trigger than the factory Shield, especially so if you have largish hands or long fingers.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

Thank you all. CZ wasn't on my list. Simply because I had not heard of it. Reviews are uniformly positive. I'll put it on the list to try out.

I like the .22 conversion option.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

Went by my gun dealer today after work. They have a CZ 2075 RAMI .40 in stock. That thing fit my hand better than any other pistol I held so far. Sight alighment was perfect, did not have to adjust grip or hand at all. 

Looking forward to shoot the CZ-75 this weekend.

Also made my appointment for the interview for CCW. Early.... March.... 2017. lol. Friday appointments were available in mid Feb, and 10 days ago they were November 2016. In 10 days they have booked 4 months of appointments.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

desertman said:


> Sorry, "pic" it is what it is. Don't know where you live but you sound envious. Moving from So Cal to Arizona is really not a big deal. People can stay close to their friends and family and at the same time enjoy all of the freedoms we have in one of America's last bastions of freedom. I'm proud of my state and of the people who have kept it that way.


Man if that ain't the truth. There are several states that I'd be ashamed to call home. One would be Kalifornia.

If you like firearms and believe in the right to own / possess, then Arizona would suit you fine.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Cuthahotha said:


> Went by my gun dealer today after work. They have a CZ 2075 RAMI .40 in stock. That thing fit my hand better than any other pistol I held so far. Sight alighment was perfect, did not have to adjust grip or hand at all.
> 
> Looking forward to shoot the CZ-75 this weekend. ......


A new poster and you're already corrupted by the CZ aficionados.  See ..... the pistols speak for themselves.

Wait till you try a Beretta 85F. If the "looks" don't get ya first.....


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

CW said:


> A new poster and you're already corrupted by the CZ aficionados.


Ya, don't take much... I'm getting jittery waiting on Sunday to go shoot. Just looked it up, the 85F is nice looking. I wonder if there's a side pool on how many guns I own by this time next year. :smt041

By the way CW, love the avatar. My #1 favorite aircraft. #2 is the A10.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Cuthahotha said:


> ...... I wonder if there's a side pool on how many guns I own by this time next year.....
> 
> By the way CW, love the avatar. My #1 favorite aircraft. #2 is the A10.


# of guns pool..... I'm sure the odds are already set. BTW check out the latest CZ83. I'm almost tempted to swap my 84F for one. Almost, but not foolish enough.....

Aircraft: OV 10A, then P-61, then A-10. You have excellent taste.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Cuthahotha said:


> Went by my gun dealer today after work. They have a CZ 2075 RAMI .40 in stock. That thing fit my hand better than any other pistol I held so far. Sight alighment was perfect, did not have to adjust grip or hand at all.
> 
> Looking forward to shoot the CZ-75 this weekend.
> 
> Also made my appointment for the interview for CCW. Early.... March.... 2017. lol. Friday appointments were available in mid Feb, and 10 days ago they were November 2016. In 10 days they have booked 4 months of appointments.


The RAMI is an outstanding shooter. However, be advised that the early models (circa 2004) had some feed problems that required a return to the factory for a 'fluff and buff.' Mine would not reliably feed hollow points until I sent it back for this 'repair.' However, it has been perfect since, and is definitely my most accurate subcompact pistol.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

CW said:


> Aircraft: OV 10A, then P-61, then A-10. You have excellent taste.


Saw the Warthog in action a little bit when TDY to Davis Monthan AFB, AZ. Watched a lot of the Bronco over the years. There was one mission we used to run with the Army that seemed to always have a couple of them flying fac. Never seen an Aircraft that could do what the Bronco can.



Bisley said:


> The RAMI is an outstanding shooter. However, be advised that the early models (circa 2004) had some feed problems that required a return to the factory for a 'fluff and buff.' Mine would not reliably feed hollow points until I sent it back for this 'repair.' However, it has been perfect since, and is definitely my most accurate subcompact pistol.


Bisley, Thanks for the follow up. Leaning toward a two gun set at this point. CZ 75 BD (Now) and the 2075 Rami BD (later). I haven't shot them yet, but ergonomically they fit me the best. I'll get my hands on a 75 at the range on Sunday. I'm not betting on them having a 2075 as well though. If things at the range go well, I'll get the 75 on order. I've been warned that it might take time for my gun shop to find one. The way things are in So Cal right now, the gun shops are out of stock on just about everything.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

Cuthahotha said:


> Saw the Warthog in action a little bit when TDY to Davis Monthan AFB, AZ. Watched a lot of the Bronco over the years. There was one mission we used to run with the Army that seemed to always have a couple of them flying fac. *Never seen an Aircraft that could do what the Bronco can*. ........


Lucky You. (stated respectfully)

Read a lot, saw videos, and hope some day to at least see the Calif Fire OV-10s in flight. 
P-61B rebuild is happening in reading PA - MAAM, I have a USAF training flight video of the Widow - I can only dream of saving enough for a ride. 
PA ANG A10s used to fly around us and I got to see them in action from BSA Camp Bashore (at safe distance) when they would practice at Ft Indiantown Gap. That Gau-30 sound was very distinctive.

As for a CZ, Getting the Kadet (.22 kit) with a 75 is a good option. If possible, try both a 75B and a 75BD. The safety vs de-cocker discussions are still on going but you might want to sample which you prefer.

You can also checkout the Original CZ forum for more info and pics. 
Although I went with the CZ PCR, that model may not be approved for CA. Those that have RAMIs appear to love them.
Good luck at the range.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

I want to thank everyone for the input. A decision has been made.

I hit the range again today. Shot the CZ 75 BD. Shot groups were excellent. (ok excellent for me anyway.) 7yds, I think the widest group was 5" and several around 3" or so.

So it's on order now.  

Got a couple of questions, but will drop down to the CZ forum to ask.

AGAIN, MANY THANKS FOR BEING PATIENT WITH ME AND HELPING WITH QUESTIONS!!

Steve


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