# Thoughts on current open carry?



## jfhrtn

Whats going on everyone? I am currently open carrying a Glock 27 40cal sub compact in a Galco "Royal Guard" holster. I bought it for after my concealed class but I figured after over 130 on a holster I would just use it for open carry also until I get my permit. I got a pic I am going to post up of how I carry it every day. I would love to hear opinions and thoughts on what everyone thinks. See if yall think its ok. My shirt is always tucked in and my coat is always tucked in my jeans behind the holster to make sure it doesnt come loose and have that accidental cover up.

Thanks,
-Rick


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## Cait43

Open carry in states that allowed comes down to, it depends on the community one lives in..............

Personally I would like to open carry(less hassle), unfortunately with my lower back issues I can not afford to be thrown to the ground by an overzealous officer of the law.........


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## jfhrtn

So you would rather open the conceal? I'll have my concealed permit by middle to end of Jan if everything goes to plan. I like open carrying and have been for several months now. Just want the concealed permit so I can always have it on me.

Do you carry in establishments like the grocery, Walmart, gas station, and other very public places. I'm not worried about the looks I get just any type of consequence that could follow. 

Here in NC its perfectly legal to OC without any permit with the exception of Chapel hill, NC.


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## Steve M1911A1

Wait for your permit.
Do not open-carry.

Spend the time, while awaiting your permit, practicing your presentation and, more important, your shooting technique.
It is not enough to have a gun, have taken a class, and to have a carry permit.
You need to practice, practice, practice.

When you carry a pistol openly, you are a very inviting target.
It's easier than you think, to come up behind you and steal your gun. And you can't stop it.

And if there is an incident, whom do you think the bad guy is going to shoot first?
"Look: He's got a gun. Kill him first!"

Open carry is a very bad idea.

But you bought a very good holster!
I hope you bought an equally good belt.


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## jfhrtn

Thank you steve. I have been hesitant to open carry in many places due to the fact of becoming a target. That's one thing I've had on my mind. Got another 100 rounds to put through it when my father comes for Christmas. He will be using my P89DC to shoot and I'll practice even more with the 27. Only 200 rounds shot trying to get everything down where I'm comfortable. Just under a 4" group at 15 steps right now. 

On the other hand I've had 800-900 rounds through my P89. I'm use to pistols and comfortable shooting. Just ready to get my permit to take any worry out of it all. 

When it came to holster I've used a Galco in the past and knew the comfort so I had to go back Galco. Almost went cross breed though. 

Belt is zep-pro but looking at a cross breed belt for my next one maybe


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## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Wait for your permit.
> Do not open-carry.
> 
> Spend the time, while awaiting your permit, practicing your presentation and, more important, your shooting technique.
> It is not enough to have a gun, have taken a class, and to have a carry permit.
> You need to practice, practice, practice.
> 
> When you carry a pistol openly, you are a very inviting target.
> It's easier than you think, to come up behind you and steal your gun. And you can't stop it.
> 
> And if there is an incident, whom do you think the bad guy is going to shoot first?
> "Look: He's got a gun. Kill him first!"
> 
> Open carry is a very bad idea.
> 
> But you bought a very good holster!
> I hope you bought an equally good belt.


Hate to do this to you Steve, but cites please.

I know of one incident where the open carrier was shot and killed in my state... one. And that was about five years ago. One. Virginia has a lot of ope carriers going about their business on a daily basis with no hassles, no wide-eyed stares, and no running for the doors, children in hand while screaming "Gun!".

Look at it this way. If what you say was true, don't you think that the anti-gun media would be plastering it all over their news with stories of "Person open carrying a pistol was first to be shot in a robbery". We don't see this happening. I'm not going to say it couldn't happen because it could. It's just not taking place... at least in my state.

I do both modes of carry but more often than not, I open carry. My rig is very non-descript: either a Glock 23 (usually the case) or an M&P 9 Pro in a Fobus Evolution belt holster. Looks professional and not at all showy... doesn't scream "Gun". I have never had a problem with the police of any sort while carrying... none. And I have been in their presence many times while openly armed including in police precinct buildings. Not one problem with any of them. In fact, just the opposite has been the way they react, IF they even react at all.

The myth that you're going to be thrown to the ground by some outraged LEO when he sees your gun, or handcuffed while he calls in the reserves, or even arrested for some trumped up non-existing charge just doesn't happen here. And the myth that as soon as you exit your home and go out and about in the public arena that you're going to get MWAG calls made on you also doesn't happen here. We just don't see any of this.

Even when I go into my bank armed, there is not even so much as a raised eyebrow. Banks, liquor stores, restaurants which serve alcohol for consumption on the premises, you name it. It's a carrier heaven here.


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## PT111Pro

Huummmm,
a person that carry a gun will be targeted first. Hummm.
Does someone have actually a number how often someone get targeted first because s/he carry a weapon or is that only assumption / opinion, adaption of liberal language?


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## BackyardCowboy

As Cait43 said, depends on the community you live in.

Personal opinion, in a situation with an armed aggressor facing 3 people, one of whom is open carrying, then I would expect him to shoot at the one who is obviously armed. (Think threat assessment: someone known armed v.s. two people who might be armed/concealed carrying)


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## SouthernBoy

BackyardCowboy said:


> As Cait43 said, depends on the community you live in.
> 
> Personal opinion, in a situation with an armed aggressor facing 3 people, one of whom is open carrying, then I would expect him to shoot at the one who is obviously armed. (Think threat assessment: someone known armed v.s. two people who might be armed/concealed carrying)


Sorry, have to ask... cites, please. Please see my post above.


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## desertman

No hassles here in Arizona either. But for strategic purposes I never open carry while in public, only while out in the desert or on mountain trails. With the implementation of "Constitutional Carry" status we do not see too many people carrying openly anymore. I too feel that openly carrying a handgun unless in a retention holster makes it too easy to take from the carrier. A retention holster can also be a hinderance to the carrier. I don't know if there are any statistics as to whether someone who carries openly had been targeted. I do know one thing, if I were a determined armed robber or an individual intent on committing murder with a gun already out, and saw an armed individual with a holstered gun they would be the first person I would "take out". While carrying openly you lose the element of surprise. That's just my opinion. If people choose to carry openly, fine that's their choice. I respect that and do not have a problem with it. It's none of my business to tell others how to carry. We are talking about handguns, long guns are a different matter that have been discussed before.


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## PT111Pro

Well - but is not concealed carry trapping the protected robbers and police murderer? 
I'll think it is very unfair to concealed carry. Open carry i way better. First someone opens a store, puts all the goods on display so a liberal protected robber cant resist to rob and kill the store owner and than the store owner refuses to die and pulls a hidden weapon out of the pants and shoot the by liberal protected Mr. Brown?
Is this not the same than the other guy that they showed on TV that put something that he practically have payed for and own in a totally unfairly way in his own garage and shoot the robber? Is this not trapping people in the view of liberals? Liberals don't know the difference between mine and yours. They only know I want it right now.

Is it not unfair to criminals to hide the capability to defend yourself? Should we not all carry open so that a robber knows whom to attack and whom not?


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> No hassles here in Arizona either. But for strategic purposes I never open carry while in public, only while out in the desert or on mountain trails. With the implementation of "Constitutional Carry" status we do not see too many people carrying openly anymore. I too feel that openly carrying a handgun unless in a retention holster makes it too easy to take from the carrier. A retention holster can also be a hinderance to the carrier. I don't know if there are any statistics as to whether someone who carries openly had been targeted. I do know one thing, if I were a determined armed robber or an individual intent on committing murder with a gun already out, and saw an armed individual with a holstered gun they would be the first person I would "take out". While carrying openly you lose the element of surprise. That's just my opinion. If people choose to carry openly, fine that's their choice. I respect that and do not have a problem with it. It's none of my business to tell others how to carry. We are talking about handguns, long guns are a different matter that have been discussed before.


Do keep in mind that if you conceal your sidearm properly, you look just like any other potential victim. I do conceal my sidearm when I deem it to be in my better interests at some given time and/or place, and have done so many times. I just like the freedom to have the choice. In Virginia, open carry is the normal mode or carrying a sidearm (read that as standard or default) whereas concealing it is the extraordinary mode. But as I said I do both. At least I don't have to concern myself with printing of inadvertent exposure.


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> I just like the freedom to have the choice.


No argument from me. I just choose to carry concealed for the reasons that I have stated. I've also been taught this in the tactical handgun courses that I have taken. It just makes sense for me. I do not want to draw any unwanted attention to myself. At least out here it is assumed that most people are already packin' heat. Maybe in restrictive states where permits are required you would look like another potential victim. Out here you'd never know, even "grandma" confined to a wheelchair could be packin' heat and know how to use it. I've met and know many elderly people who carry on a daily basis. I like the fact that we can carry open or concealed without a permit, although I do have a CWP for reciprocity purposes with other states. When I travel to some of the desert trails I often carry open while driving there and it is comforting to know that if I have to make a pit stop no one will really give a shit upon seeing me being armed. However I just can't justify it while going about my daily business such as supermarkets, banks etc. or places where there are a lot of people around. Before Arizona implemented a "shall issue" permit system for concealed carry the only legal way to carry was open. The firearm had to be clearly visible to any casual observer. Some obtained permits, some refused to do so and continued to carry openly. Since Arizona went "Constitutional Carry" where no permit is required for either type of carry. I seldom see people openly carrying handguns while out in public. It is now more of an occasional thing. I do get bent out of shape when some people who are not used to seeing someone carrying openly make an issue out of it when it is perfectly legal. One woman wrote a letter to our local paper complaining about this and then had the audacity to question whether the gun carrier was going to pay for the items that they had purchased in a convenience store. For Christ sakes lady this is Arizona not New York or California, guns are a way of life out here, either get used to it, keep your mouth shut or leave.


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## SouthernBoy

desertman said:


> SouthernBoy:
> 
> No argument from me. I just choose to carry concealed for the reasons that I have stated. I've also been taught this in the tactical handgun courses that I have taken. It just makes sense for me. I do not want to draw any unwanted attention to myself. At least out here it is assumed that most people are already packin' heat. Maybe in restrictive states where permits are required you would look like another potential victim. Out here you'd never know, even "grandma" confined to a wheelchair could be packin' heat and know how to use it. I've met and know many elderly people who carry on a daily basis. I like the fact that we can carry open or concealed without a permit, although I do have a CWP for reciprocity purposes with other states. When I travel to some of the desert trails I often carry open while driving there and it is comforting to know that if I have to make a pit stop no one will really give a shit upon seeing me being armed. However I just can't justify it while going about my daily business such as supermarkets, banks etc. or places where there are a lot of people around. Before Arizona implemented a "shall issue" permit system for concealed carry the only legal way to carry was open. The firearm had to be clearly visible to any casual observer. Some obtained permits, some refused to do so and continued to carry openly. Since Arizona went "Constitutional Carry" where no permit is required for either type of carry. I seldom see people openly carrying handguns while out in public. It is now more of an occasional thing. I do get bent out of shape when some people who are not used to seeing someone carrying openly make an issue out of it when it is perfectly legal. One woman wrote a letter to our local paper complaining about this and then had the audacity to question whether the gun carrier was going to pay for the items that they had purchased in a convenience store. For Christ sakes lady this is Arizona not New York or California, guns are a way of life out here, either get used to it, keep your mouth shut or leave.


We're good and I know you know that. There is a possibility that we may get constitutional carry here but I doubt it with our current governor. He intends to push for stricter gun control measures, some are old and have been tried before. I don't see him getting any of this through our general assembly.


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## desertman

SouthernBoy:


> There is a possibility that we may get constitutional carry here but I doubt it with our current governor.


I's a shame that criminal swine got elected. Whatever happened with that Global Crossing scandal that he had his greedy little fingers in? For the life of me I can't understand why people are content with corrupt individuals making decisions that will effect their everyday lives and to rule over them? I hope for your sake that Cuccinelli runs again and this time wins. I believe it was close despite all the money that was spent by McAuliffe and the DNC.


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## BackyardCowboy

SouthernBoy said:


> Sorry, have to ask... cites, please. Please see my post above.


As I said, it's my personal opinion. 
It, to me, falls under threat assessment. If you are facing 3 opponents (read BadGuys), one with a shotgun, one with an 'uzi' type machine pistol and one with a revolver, which should be taken out first, second, third.


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## SouthernBoy

BackyardCowboy said:


> As I said, it's my personal opinion.
> It, to me, falls under threat assessment. If you are facing 3 opponents (read BadGuys), one with a shotgun, one with an 'uzi' type machine pistol and one with a revolver, which should be taken out first, second, third.


I understand. We have had one situation in my state where a man open carrying was shot with his own gun. But he did kind of bring it upon himself. He was in a mini-mart (I think) when a robbery started to go down. He was open carrying and managed to make his way out of the store but after going a short distance away, he turned around and went back in. That was when he was accosted, disarmed, and shot.


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## TAPnRACK

To the OP...

The fact that your gun/holster is partially exposed could cause a CCW violation if you don't have a permit. Open carry is a fully exposed gun in a holster (not obscured by clothing... in most areas, to the best of my knowledge and in my state). Your IWB carry option could get you in trouble... you should check your state law to see if a partially exposed firearm is a violation of the CCW laws.


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## jfhrtn

Thank you TAPnRACK I may have to buy a new holster to make it it fully visible. Do you have any recommendations for an open carry holsters? Even if I have to order one?


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## TAPnRACK

I personally like Galco leather pancake style holsters... very comfortable and secure. Something with a retention device is a good idea until you learn some handgun retention skills. I also use kydex holsters (Zero Concealment Systems)... depends what i'm carrying and where i'm going.


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## pic

B


jfhrtn said:


> Thank you steve. I have been hesitant to open carry in many places due to the fact of becoming a target. That's one thing I've had on my mind. Got another 100 rounds to put through it when my father comes for Christmas. He will be using my P89DC to shoot and I'll practice even more with the 27. Only 200 rounds shot trying to get everything down where I'm comfortable. Just under a 4" group at 15 steps right now.
> 
> On the other hand I've had 800-900 rounds through my P89. I'm use to pistols and comfortable shooting. Just ready to get my permit to take any worry out of it all.
> 
> When it came to holster I've used a Galco in the past and knew the comfort so I had to go back Galco. Almost went cross breed though.
> 
> Belt is zep-pro but looking at a cross breed belt for my next one maybe


When open carrying you will be profiled very quickly. 
What type of profile in your opinion do you present?
An older , more mature gentlemen might be profiled in a different way.
Can I ask your age? 
Good luck
:smt1099


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## jfhrtn

Looking at ordering one tonight for open carry and see if itll be here by Christmas or a lil after. 

I am 22 years old and know I will be profiled negatively. Normally wear a button down shirt tucked in with jeans, tennis shoes, Patagonia coat, trimmed/groomed short beard, and shaved hair on a #1 guard. Also no jewelry other than a paracord bracelet and a tucked in silver rope chain my father gave me when I was in the 2nd grade


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## jfhrtn

Also I am looking at around Jan 15-19th before I actually take the CW class. Then I will strictly go concealed. When you take the class do they issue a temporary permit until you get your actual permit mailed to you?


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## Steve M1911A1

jfhrtn said:


> Also I am looking at around Jan 15-19th before I actually take the CW class. Then I will strictly go concealed. When you take the class do they issue a temporary permit until you get your actual permit mailed to you?


I dunno, but I doubt it.


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## TAPnRACK

In most states you will apply using your certificate of completion (CCW course) and wait until it arrives... I do not believe any states will automatically give you a permit because you need to pass a background check, be fingerprinted (in most states) and possibly go before a gun board before a permit is issued and mailed.


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## Cait43

As I said previously I do not open carry due to have back issues and do not believe I would be happy if thrown to the ground...... However if I did I would not worry about someone getting my weapon since I appendix carry and am constantly aware of my surroundings............


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## SouthernBoy

TAPnRACK said:


> In most states you will apply using your certificate of completion (CCW course) and wait until it arrives... I do not believe any states will automatically give you a permit because you need to pass a background check, be fingerprinted (in most states) and possibly *go before a gun board* before a permit is issued and mailed.


What is this?

I would suggest to the OP that his state most likely has a time limit within which they either must issue a permit or show cause as to why it has not been issued. If the permit is not issued within the specified time period, check to see if they have to issue you a temporary permit until your real one is delivered to you (this assumes that they have no reason not to issue you a permit - this is how it is down in Virginia, your next down neighbor).


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## GCBHM

I prefer not to open carry as a general rule. I just don't like to bring attention to myself, and unless you have a badge on your shirt or belt here in Alabama, you will draw unwanted attention to the open carry of a gun. I also like knowing others don't know I'm carrying.


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## Bisley

I'm willing to change my mind at some point, but for the present, I'm in Steve's camp on this one. For me, it's a common sense decision, rather than one based on statistics. That may seem to be in contradiction to the post I made regarding Mas Ayoob's admonition about modifying your carry weapon or using hand loads, where I held the position that there were no significant examples of a person being convicted because of those specific things. But the difference here is that common sense tells me that disarming an open-carrier would be quite easy with a sneak attack by multiple perpetrators who specifically wanted to steal a $500 gun. Granted that a person could make it harder by wearing something like a Blackhawk Serpa holster and having excellent situational awareness, as well as staying clear of high crime areas. But, still, as long as a criminal can determine that a civilian is carrying an expensive item, he can find a way to steal it if he is willing to use violence, by merely observing his behavior, habits, and repetitive routes of travel. The fact that statistics don't bear that out, in Virginia or other places, does not encourage me enough to test it out for myself. It just makes me wonder why it doesn't happen, more than statistics indicate.

Texas may pass open carry laws, soon, so I may be able to gather information, first-hand, on the subject, so I could possibly alter my opinion. Even so, I likely will not open carry, because the main part of my personal defense strategy consists of my attacker not expecting me to have the means, the will, or the ability to fight back.


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## GCBHM

TAPnRACK said:


> In most states you will apply using your certificate of completion (CCW course) and wait until it arrives... I do not believe any states will automatically give you a permit because you need to pass a background check, be fingerprinted (in most states) and possibly go before a gun board before a permit is issued and mailed.


Tennessee requires something like this, but Alabama does not. One must complete an application and submit to a background check, but depending on the county, one can walk away with their CCP on the spot. In Jefferson Co, however, one must leave the application and will be notified in a couple weeks on the result. But there are no finger prints done.


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## desertman

Bisley:


> But, still, as long as a criminal can determine that a civilian is carrying an expensive item, he can find a way to steal it if he is willing to use violence, by merely observing his behavior, habits, and repetitive routes of travel.


You really don't have to observe their habits, the gun is out in the open. It's easier to steal than someones wallet. There have been times that I have been close by to someone who is carrying openly and have thought of how easy it would be to lift that weapon out of the carriers holster without them even knowing it. Not only do you increase the odds of being shot with your own weapon, but it is another weapon that will fall into criminal hands. I do not like retention holsters or straps it's just another thing you have to do in order to bring the weapon into action. While carrying concealed know one will even know that you are armed let alone know where the weapon is being carried. Carrying in a front pocket is a great way of carrying. While I do believe that both methods should be allowed, I could never advocate carrying any type of weapon openly when there are lots of people around such as in supermarkets, shopping centers, restaurants, malls, banks etc.


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## KeithC.

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Wait for your permit.
> Do not open-carry.
> 
> Spend the time, while awaiting your permit, practicing your presentation and, more important, your shooting technique.
> It is not enough to have a gun, have taken a class, and to have a carry permit.
> You need to practice, practice, practice.
> 
> When you carry a pistol openly, you are a very inviting target.
> It's easier than you think, to come up behind you and steal your gun. And you can't stop it.
> 
> And if there is an incident, whom do you think the bad guy is going to shoot first?
> "Look: He's got a gun. Kill him first!"
> 
> Open carry is a very bad idea.
> 
> But you bought a very good holster!
> I hope you bought an equally good belt.


I have not ever heard of anyone open carrying and having their gun snatched. Not even once. That seems a little bit odd. Do you know of anyone it's ever happened to?

Does anyone keep statistics on this stuff?


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## desertman

KiethC.


> I have not ever heard of anyone open carrying and having their gun snatched. Not even once. That seems a little bit odd. Do you know of anyone it's ever happened to?
> Does anyone keep statistics on this stuff?


Whether it has happened or not is irrelevant. It would be very easy for someone to do it. It's not rocket science. There have been instances where law enforcement officers have had their weapons taken from them. Here's but one:



> A man was killed Saturday morning by Oklahoma City police after he had taken an officer's gun and opened fire on officers.--www.policemag.com


If someone were able to get a cops gun it shouldn't be too hard from an un-trained civilian. This is the main reason why I choose to not carry openly while in public.

From Steve M1911A1:


> It's easier than you think, to come up behind you and steal your gun. And you can't stop it.


You're damn right it is!


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## KeithC.

I know of law enforcement officers who have lost their gun. I was referring to civilians. Open carry proponents insist it deters crime. So my question was if he knew of any references on the topic. I can't find any. And I'll say it again. I have never heard of someone who was open carrying and had their gun snatched. Not once. 

I am looking for references, not an argument. I don't open carry. I don't want the attention. Even at family gatherings no one is aware I am carrying. And that is the way I intend to keep it.


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## VAMarine

KeithC. said:


> I know of law enforcement officers who have lost their gun. I was referring to civilians. Open carry proponents insist it deters crime. So my question was if he knew of any references on the topic. I can't find any. And I'll say it again. I have never heard of someone who was open carrying and had their gun snatched. Not once.
> 
> I am looking for references, not an argument. I don't open carry. I don't want the attention. Even at family gatherings no one is aware I am carrying. And that is the way I intend to keep it.


There are a few:

Man practicing open carry law robbed of gun

This one from 2010
*Man Legally Carrying Gun Robbed at Gunpoint

*_



*By Melanie Stout*
MILWAUKEE - A Milwaukee man found out the hard way that carrying a gun for protection doesn't always keep you safe. In fact, it may have made him a target.

The 34-year-old man legally owned a handgun and carried it out in the open in his holster for protection.

Neighbors say they knew he was always armed.

"It was kind of scary to just see him walking around all the time with that gun kind of just out in the open," said Shambria Mayham Autman. She lives near Teutonia and Good Hope and said they called him "The guy with the gun."

But it wasn't scary for at least one person who robbed "The guy with the gun" at gunpoint.

"I think he was trying to scare people off like, 'Yeah, don't mess with me,' kind of attitude, but it didn't work," Mayham Autman explained.

The president of Wisconsin Carry, Nik Clark, says 100's of thousands of people open carry and he's never heard of anything like this.

"So it really is a very unusual situation, very unique," Clark said.

The victim didn't want to go on camera but said he carried the gun because he had been jumped and held up at knife point in the past. He believes, in his case, open carry made him a target and he will no longer do it.

He said his case proves gun owners should have the right to carry concealed weapons.

Clark agrees. "By and large it is a significant deterrent, open carry is, but I think it really does make the point that Wisconsin should have concealed carry along with open carry so that people who live in a very high crime neighborhood where criminals aren't deterred by firearms would have the ability to conceal carry to protect themselves. The two really work hand in hand," Clark said.

Click to expand...

_Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun



> An unarmed man attempted to rob an *Eastern Michigan University* student of his handgun Thursday morning while he walked on Pearl Street near the campus in Ypsilanti, university officials said.
> According to an email alert sent out by EMU, the student - an open-carry advocate - was walking at about 9:15 a.m. in the 300 block of Pearl Street when he was approached by an unknown man. The man grabbed the student's holstered handgun and attempted to wrestle it away from the student, according to the alert.
> Another person walking by the area came to the student's aid and was able to secure the handgun, EMU said in the statement.


(Dead Link) But there was an open carrier killed with his own gun in / near Richmond, VA...
http://www.richmond.com/news/news/2...e-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

There's a couple more cases out there. Rare, but they happen.


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## SouthernBoy

Bisley said:


> I'm willing to change my mind at some point, but for the present, I'm in Steve's camp on this one. For me, it's a common sense decision, rather than one based on statistics. That may seem to be in contradiction to the post I made regarding Mas Ayoob's admonition about modifying your carry weapon or using hand loads, where I held the position that there were no significant examples of a person being convicted because of those specific things. But the difference here is that common sense tells me that disarming an open-carrier would be quite easy with a sneak attack by multiple perpetrators who specifically wanted to steal a $500 gun. Granted that a person could make it harder by wearing something like a Blackhawk Serpa holster and having excellent situational awareness, as well as staying clear of high crime areas. But, still, as long as a criminal can determine that a civilian is carrying an expensive item, he can find a way to steal it if he is willing to use violence, by merely observing his behavior, habits, and repetitive routes of travel. *The fact that statistics don't bear that out, in Virginia* or other places, does not encourage me enough to test it out for myself. *It just makes me wonder why it doesn't happen, more than statistics indicate.*
> 
> Texas may pass open carry laws, soon, so I may be able to gather information, first-hand, on the subject, so I could possibly alter my opinion. Even so, I likely will not open carry, because the main part of my personal defense strategy consists of my attacker not expecting me to have the means, the will, or the ability to fight back.


Haven't a clue why the incidence of this happening is nearly nonexistent here. I know that logic would seem to indicate otherwise and frankly, I used to use the same excuses most do: A) you'll get a lot of MWAG calls; b) you'll scare the general public; )c) someone will take if from you; D) you'll be the first one shot in a robbery. All of these seemed to make perfect sense and to agree to the logical side of my mind.

But then I did some research and tried it out for myself for the first time in the summer of 2007. And guess what? No MWAG calls, no wide-eyed stares (a few did come from out of staters - like New Jersey for example), no mass MWAG calls, and no stolen gun. Not saying it can't happen... that would be foolish on my part. Just saying it is extremely rare and virtually does not happen here.


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## SouthernBoy

VAMarine said:


> (Dead Link) *But there was an open carrier killed with his own gun in / near Richmond, VA...*
> http://www.richmond.com/news/news/2...e-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/
> 
> There's a couple more cases out there. Rare, but they happen.


This is the incident I referred to that happened about four or five years ago. The man was in a convenience store when some BG's came in and commenced to rob the place. The man managed to make it out of the store but then went back in. He was spotted coming in, robbed of his sidearm, and shot with it. Once out of there, he should have stayed out and just been a good witness. He created the situation that got him killed.


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## VAMarine

Yes he created that situation, but so did the other guys I mentioned, depending on point of view of course


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## KeithC.

Thanks for the help and those news clips! 

In my mind it would seem that I am afraid that mine would get snatched as well. I could not find a single story of a civilian getting a holstered OWB snatched. I discounted all the cops who lost theirs since they were involved in a physical fight with a suspect. Never head of a cop getting his snatched at random while not engaging a bad guy. I have heard of both civilians and LE's loosing theirs while in the middle of a conflict. 

I think I want to take a gun retention and disarming class.


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## VAMarine

Take TDI's ECQ class. Well worth it. Craig Douglas aka SouthNarc has a gold one too very similar ECQC.

In terms or people being out right targeted for guns look at the Oklahoma City Shoot Out. This BGs were targeting shooters at ranges a d more recently in Boston the bombers took out a transit cop minding his own business for his weapon.

I know of one case in Hartford,CT where a beat cop was literally sacked with a burlap bag and relieved of his entire duty belt.


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## KeithC.

VAMarine said:


> Take TDI's ECQ class. Well worth it. Craig Douglas aka SouthNarc has a gold one too very similar ECQC.
> 
> In terms or people being out right targeted for guns look at the Oklahoma City Shoot Out. This BGs were targeting shooters at ranges a d more recently in Boston the bombers took out a transit cop minding his own business for his weapon.
> 
> I know of one case in Hartford,CT where a beat cop was literally sacked with a burlap bag and relieved of his entire duty belt.


Thanks VAMarine.

I personally don't open carry anymore because I don't care for the attention. I also want the tactical advantage of surprise.

If anybody else wants to open carry then God Bless them. Just not for me.


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## VAMarine

The classes are not open carry specific. If you carry a gun (and take it seriously) you should look into these classes. Not all situations can be solved with the gun in your pants/so you end up with a gun in the situation where YOU don't want to use it but the other guy might.


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## Bisley

If a person examines the logic of something, but statistics don't support it, you have to use that same logic to theorize why. In this instance, it could very simply be that the criminal element just doesn't keep up with these issues and is still assuming that someone who open-carries is involved in law enforcement. Or maybe they just haven't seen enough of it yet to have made the calculations on how easy it would be. 

Since most criminals prey on whoever they see as the weakest, it is logical for them to assume that a person who carries a gun intends to fight back, and they may screen them out, at first. But, it is also logical to assume that, at some point, it might occur to them that some of these new open-carriers look like easy marks, and that stealing a handgun from an individual may be easier, less risky, and more profitable than sticking up a convenience store. If it happens a couple times in the same locale, a trend may develop, and the statistics might take a turn for the worse. 

Time will tell, I reckon. With all that is starting to happen in the big cities, lately, statistics may get turned upside down on a lot of subjects.


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## KeithC.

Bisley said:


> If a person examines the logic of something, but statistics don't support it, you have to use that same logic to theorize why. In this instance, it could very simply be that the criminal element just doesn't keep up with these issues and is still assuming that someone who open-carries is involved in law enforcement. Or maybe they just haven't seen enough of it yet to have made the calculations on how easy it would be.
> 
> Since most criminals prey on whoever they see as the weakest, it is logical for them to assume that a person who carries a gun intends to fight back, and they may screen them out, at first. But, it is also logical to assume that, at some point, it might occur to them that some of these new open-carriers look like easy marks, and that stealing a handgun from an individual may be easier, less risky, and more profitable than sticking up a convenience store. If it happens a couple times in the same locale, a trend may develop, and the statistics might take a turn for the worse.
> 
> Time will tell, I reckon. With all that is starting to happen in the big cities, lately, statistics may get turned upside down on a lot of subjects.


That is why the current trend of civil unrest concerns me. When people are allowed to riot and destroy things with impunity it emboldens them to take even greater risks. If it becomes fashionable or trendy to attack cops then we are in deep trouble.

Good points by the way Bisley.


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## acepilot

BackyardCowboy said:


> As Cait43 said, depends on the community you live in.
> 
> Personal opinion, in a situation with an armed aggressor facing 3 people, one of whom is open carrying, then I would expect him to shoot at the one who is obviously armed. (Think threat assessment: someone known armed v.s. two people who might be armed/concealed carrying)


Chances are that the bad guy won't stop at one...he'll eventually do all three. If I'm faced with an *armed* aggressor, I'll just be glad to be carrying either way and somebody will be going out in a blaze of glory.


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## acepilot

Has any *concealed* carrier ever been mugged and/or shot before? If so, I'd argue that concealed carry does not make you any less of a target for crime.


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## VAMarine

Oh sure concealed carriers have been victims of crimes but the question is what made them selected? In the relevant cases listed above it would seem they (the open carriers) were targeted for their gun.


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## VAMarine

The flip side of course is that we have documented cases where open carriers either deterred a crime from being committed (the Waffle House story) and an open carrier shooting a robber at a c-store hold up. 

You need to look at your environment. All thugs are not created equal. There are some that can eat you for breakfast and some that you just end up grabbing by the ear and tell their mommy. 

They all aren't mystical ninjas but they all ain't smart either.

Plan accordingly to the best of your ability to face both types.


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## Blackhawkman

I OC on my own property. I would not go to town and OC with current issues now. Not gun friendly around here. I too have seen OC idiots in Walmart and sooner or later they will muck it for all of us. jmo


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## Bisley

My opinions on open carry have moderated a bit since the first time I replied to this thread. OC is now legal in Texas (for concealed carry licensees) and has been for several months. I've only noticed a couple of folks carrying open, and neither seemed to alarm folks much. Both looked to be sensible, upright citizens, and were treated accordingly by 'the public.' That is to say that nobody really paid much attention.

For myself, the only change I have made is that I carry OWB more often, but still wear my shirttail out for concealment, simply because OWB is more comfortable. I don't have to worry about exposing my pistol, should I reach up high or bend over, but I still make every effort to keep it concealed, because I still think that is the wisest decision. 

Overall, I'm content with the new law, and I'm hopeful that non-gun types will become more 'de-sensitized' about armed citizens, after becoming accustomed to seeing people do it, without incident. I'm hopeful that my state will adopt some form of 'Constitutional Carry' in the near future.


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## Babbalou1956

The March 2017 issue of Combat Handguns has an article about open carry. (Yep, they're 3 months ahead of the rest of us : ) Two 16 year olds follow a guy into a convenience store because he open carries. They grab his gun & take off running. He chased them & they turned & shot him. Killed him with his own gun. Another incident, a guy got into an argument with his neighbor. He then called the police & claimed his neighbor pointed his gun at him. He accurately described the gun & where his holster was because the neighbor open carried. The neighbor never drew his pistol & wasn't charged but had to spent a lot of money on defense attorney fees. Personally I see open carry as a vulnerability. Like flashing money to strangers. You have something some people want but can't get, for legal or financial reasons. I don't have eyes on the back of my head & an OWB holster above my crotch would look funny & be uncomfortable. I don't have a problem with open carry being legal, it's just not my personal choice. I haven't seen one person open carry here since it became legal. (Texas) Oddly I did see a guy open carry at a convenience store before it was legal. No one even blinked. He got gas, went in to pay & drove away. Maybe a security guard, I don't know. No uniform though, just civilian cloths.


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## win231

Open carrying is an attention getter - but not a good one. There are more constructive (and safer) ways to get attention.


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## stonebuster

In the "constitution state" of Connecticut open carry is legal with valid pistol permit which also allows CC. However CT law states you must not carry your handgun in a way that "may alarm" someone. If that "alarmed" person complains to the police about it, the senior state prosecutor has gone on record as stating that it constitutes disorderly conduct. So if you're carrying concealed and you're gun shows and somebody freaks out, which is very likely in this neck of the woods, it could cost you. BS, but that's the way it is. I work with a guy that was carrying concealed and was getting out of his car and his shirt rode up over his handgun slightly. He pulled his shirt down as he got out to see a town cop standing there asking what you got there? My friend told him he has a permit to carry, cop checked him out and told him he needed to be more careful how he carried. So it pays to do some research into what exactly are your state's policies. When I took my NRA pistol permit class in Ct. we were told we were permitted to open carry. Technically true but you still might get arrested.


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## Bisley

Texas has had it for a year or so, now. It is strictly a non-issue, now, where I live. I've seen a few folks doing it, and paid no attention, beyond noting it and moving on. Apparently, nobody else cared, either.


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## win231

Not wise; the gun is available to anyone. But, hey...it a great attention getter, eh?


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## desertman

At one time that was the only legal way to carry a gun in Arizona. Once the law was changed to allow for concealed carry with a permit and then went constitutional carry (no permit) you do not see too many people open carrying anymore. When you do see someone open carrying it's no big deal as that used to be the normal mode of carry.


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## desertman

win231 said:


> *Not wise; the gun is available to anyone.* But, hey...it a great attention getter, eh?


That is thee number one reason to not open carry except while out in the middle of nowhere when no one's around.


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## SigCarry1956.

Depends on the time and place but if I need it and have to dig for it, what's the point of even having it?


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## Steve M1911A1

SigCarry1956. said:


> Depends on the time and place but if I need it and have to dig for it, what's the point of even having it?


If you carry a pistol, concealed or in the open, you must first become proficient in both shooting it and in presenting it.
If you carry a concealed weapon, you should already know how to carry it so that it isn't seen, but also how to carry it so that you needn't "dig for it."

I carry a concealed weapon 24/7/365 (365-1/4, actually).
Winter spring, summer, fall...I _never_ have to "dig for it."


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## desertman

Steve M1911A1 said:


> If you carry a pistol, concealed or in the open, you must first become proficient in both shooting it *and in presenting it.*
> If you carry a concealed weapon, you should already know how to carry it so that it isn't seen, but also how to carry it so that you needn't "dig for it."
> 
> I carry a concealed weapon 24/7/365 (365-1/4, actually).
> Winter spring, summer, fall...I _never_ have to "dig for it."


That's for sure! You sure as hell don't want to be fumbling around in a life or death situation. There have been times when I was in public where someone was openly carrying a firearm. Sometimes right behind them in a check out line and thought of how easy it would be to take that individuals gun and either shoot them or others with it.

Indeed there's more to it than just strapping a gun on and thinking you'll be ready for any situation that arises.


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## SigCarry1956.

Now my curious is up. If you feel compelled to hide your weapon, why? Where do you go that causes you to want to hide?


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## Cait43

http://www.handgunforum.net/general...-amendment-protect-open-carry.html#post560681


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## Steve M1911A1

SigCarry1956. said:


> ...If you feel compelled to hide your weapon, why? Where do you go that causes you to want to hide?


The state in which I reside does not permit open carry, except in certain hunting situations.
If you wish to go armed here, your pistol _must_ be concealed.

What compels me to "want to hide" (my weapon)?
The threat of a misdemeanor citation or, in certain cases, a felony arrest.

But then there's also the possibility that one's openly-carried pistol could be snatched from behind, by someone who means to do illegal damage with it.
In such a case, even if I were not legally liable, I would still feel entirely morally responsible for the damage caused by the misuse of my gun.

No matter where I may be, if I am to go armed "out among the English" (as a friend calls it), my pistol will be concealed until it is needed.


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## SigCarry1956.

That makes perfect sense.


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## SigCarry1956.

The following comment is in no way directed to or about those required by law to hide their weapons.
I don't believe an individual carrying open invites assault any more than an attractive woman walking alone does. Tolerating assault because a victim is "asking for it" can't be tolerated. PERIOD


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## SouthernBoy

Open carry is the normal mode of carrying a sidearm in my state, whereas concealing it is the exception. I open carried on a regular basis for 7 1/2 years but 2 1/2 years ago, I went totally concealed... with a few exceptions and when in a vehicle, in which case I always open carry for quicker and better access to my sidearm.

Open carry is no big deal here and is pretty much universally accepted. However, I have my reasons for switching to concealment and have never looked back. Still, I fully and completely support both modes of carry as I would consider myself to be a hypocrite if I didn't think this way. How someone carries is their business and their decision to take, and that's the way it should be.


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## Steve M1911A1

SigCarry1956. said:


> The following comment is in no way directed to or about those required by law to hide their weapons.
> I don't believe an individual carrying open invites assault any more than an attractive woman walking alone does. Tolerating assault because a victim is "asking for it" can't be tolerated. PERIOD


An attractive woman walking alone has the absolute right to be free from any sort of harassment.
BUT...
There are some people who, because they are immoral or amoral by nature or by inclination, will step up and harass her anyway.
A few will even try to rape her.

If that attractive woman depends exclusively upon her absolute right to be free of harassment, then she is a fool.
Her attitude is the triumph of wishful thinking over reality.
The penalty for her foolish "Pollyanna" attitude may come as a very unpleasant surprise to her, when she comes across her very first amoral person.

The same is true for those who carry a deadly weapon openly.
If such a person depends upon his or her absolute right to be free from harassment or a gun snatch, that person is proving himself or herself a fool.
As with the attractive woman, the penalty for this foolish "Pollyanna" attitude may come as a very unpleasant surprise, when the open carrier comes across the very first amoral person.

No, we do not tolerate assault.
But if we do not actively do things to prevent it, it will inevitably happen anyway.
To pretend otherwise may be "taking the moral high ground," but it could still result in taking a very different position, perhaps even six feet under.


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## SouthernBoy

Steve M1911A1 said:


> An attractive woman walking alone has the absolute right to be free from any sort of harassment.
> BUT...
> There are some people who, because they are immoral or amoral by nature or by inclination, will step up and harass her anyway.
> A few will even try to rape her.
> 
> If that attractive woman depends exclusively upon her absolute right to be free of harassment, then she is a fool.
> Her attitude is the triumph of wishful thinking over reality.
> The penalty for her foolish "Pollyanna" attitude may come as a very unpleasant surprise to her, when she comes across her very first amoral person.
> 
> The same is true for those who carry a deadly weapon openly.
> If such a person depends upon his or her absolute right to be free from harassment or a gun snatch, that person is proving himself or herself a fool.
> As with the attractive woman, the penalty for this foolish "Pollyanna" attitude may come as a very unpleasant surprise, when the open carrier comes across the very first amoral person.
> 
> No, we do not tolerate assault.
> But if we do not actively do things to prevent it, it will inevitably happen anyway.
> To pretend otherwise may be "taking the moral high ground," but it could still result in taking a very different position, perhaps even six feet under.


Your comments about the attractive woman scenario are so true and bring back some memories with my younger daughter. When she was a teenager she was of the opinion that a girl, or woman, should be able to walk along a sidewalk in southeast Washington, DC in a short skirt and revealing top at 2:00AM in the morning without any worries about being the target of evil intent. Oh the arrogance, naivety, and stupidity of youth. I would tell her, "Sure, she should be able to do this but she shouldn't cry foul when her arrogance gets her raped and beaten.

Common sense and prudence don't always walk hand in hand with wishful thinking.


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## win231

SigCarry1956. said:


> The following comment is in no way directed to or about those required by law to hide their weapons.
> I don't believe an individual carrying open invites assault any more than an attractive woman walking alone does. Tolerating assault because a victim is "asking for it" can't be tolerated. PERIOD


Uh, yeah....much like some posts I've read where someone parked their car with an expensive camera on the passenger seat, then complains when it is stolen. Such people live in a world of their own making, rather than the real world.

In a perfect world, we should be able to leave valuables lying around because all people are good people. How dare someone steal something!


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## stonebuster

Where you live has a lot to do with whether to open carry or not even if your state permits it. Western states, some southern states people are used to seeing open carry and are less likely to be alarmed than here in the northeast. I know without a doubt, if I go out in public today carrying openly(which I have no interest in doing) someone would make a phone call and I would be arrested even though open carry is technically permitted. Disorderly conduct or breach of peace would be the minimum. Responding police upon arriving wouldn't know if I have a permit or my intentions. Could get real ugly with an overly excited town cop. Having a gun snatched is a potential issue too. At least the state cop that carried his service revolver in this holster thought so.


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## pic

Open carry is a very personal, judgemental decision. Take for instance "Tony Pasley is riding his horse,, that's an open carry consideration. 
SB riding in his vehicle, very great open carry situation vs other options. 
There is no single choice or smart thing to do that is written in stone , with so many different variables. 
Physicallities, jurisdictions,training,lifestyles, etc . 
The best tool to determine whether open carry is wise or unwise is your own personal choice.
If you think it may cause trouble going downtown in a strange area? Well, use your brain and choose well.


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## SigCarry1956.

Well said, pic.
With 40+ years as an arm amputee I don't train for "what if" I train for "what is". I picked up handgun hunting in 1975 so concealment isn't new to me. I must say though there is a difference between sweeping concealment "while" drawing and sweeping concealment "then" drawing. It only takes a fraction of a second to make sure your concealment doesn't become chain mail.


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## Blackhawkman

Why would you want to advertise that you have a gun? cowboy? jmho


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## pic

You're out in the country riding your horse, your land, neighbors land .

Don't understand the advertising question. Best method of carry ,,, open, god's country my friend.


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## desertman

Blackhawkman said:


> Why would you want to advertise that you have a gun? cowboy? jmho


The whole issue allowing for open carry is that if you accidentally "print" while carrying concealed or if the wind blows open your clothing exposing your firearm to the general public you won't get arrested. In states such as where I live it was once a common practice as concealed carry was at one time illegal. Since Arizona went Constitutional Carry you rarely see people openly carrying anymore. When you do nobody even blinks an eye. A lot of people out here are packin' anyway and just about everyone can assume that there's at least more than a few on any given day at any given place.

Yeah, there are probably a few that want to show off especially in places where it was never allowed before. Some may just do it for the novelty of exercising their newly found freedom. *"YEAH, BOY! I CAN'T BELIEVE I CAN DO THIS NOW!"* For them it may be just the excitement of being liberated. Give them time and they will soon understand the advantages of carrying concealed and the novelty of carrying openly will wear off.

Allowing for open carry will soon become an issue again because of those that were openly carrying rifles at Charlottesville. In spite of the fact that not a single shot was ever fired. Which goes to show how restrained those who lawfully carry guns either open or concealed actually are. That must bother the "anti's" to no end. However facts will never get in their way as they are now making demands that the practice of carrying openly be outlawed. Based on what they perceive could have happened. Funny that they're not going after openly carrying rocks, clubs, bats, pipes, frozen bottles of water or openly driving an automobile which were the weapons of choice at Charlottesville. If laws can be passed based on what could happen they may as well imprison the entire population. Barring that turning the United States into a police state. Which for some is their ultimate goal.


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## pic

Was Ben Franklin a slave owner ? 

And if so ill take all those 100$ bills from all that are offended. Lol.

I wish the snowflakes would go remove the slave built pyramids. Give them something to do.


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