# Open Carry Incident



## Bishop746

Below is a link to a netcast called Gun Nuts Radio. They have an interview with Brian Ledford, an Ohio resident and CCW holder who is stopped by police for open carry. What makes this interesting is Brian has an audio recording of the incident(I think he turned his camera phone on and dropped it in his pocket).

They get to the audio recording pretty early in the show, within 5 to 7 minutes and the recording is about 10 minutes long. Give it a listen because Im curious how people will view this incident.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/gunnuts/2009/03/11/Gun-Nuts-Radio-More-Open-Carry


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## kg333

That was a rather preachy fellow who should learn when to shut up, and a hostile and sadly misinformed cop. Interesting incident, though, thanks for the post.

EDIT: I checked into Ohio open carry law and found this:


> Sec. 9.68. (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.


If there's no other laws addressing open carry of a handgun, seems pretty clear that this clause protects the right to open carry. I know there are people here who don't like the open carry guys like this one, who carry to make a point, but I'd rather have them carrying than having them told they aren't allowed, with no law saying so.

EDIT2: I listened through the end of the show, and was interested to hear that the hostile officer was reprimanded and an apology offered to Brian. Brian also stated that he would probably say the minimum possible instead of being preachy next time, saying he was flustered after being told to get on his knees and put his hands on his head.

KG


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## SaltyDog

Okay Ohio has always been an open carry State. Legislation was pushed through the Ohio Senate and a veto by then Governor Bob Taft was overturned to allow Conceal Carry in the State of Ohio.

Now we have this movement by - in my opinion a buch of right wing, attention grabbers, no worse than left wing liberals, tryig to put together an "open carry walk" to make the point that open carry is legal in Ohio? DUH! Also the Open Carry walk was blogged at OFCC (Ohioans for Conceal Carry) of all places.

Quite a few people spent a lot of time and effort to get the Conceal Carry laws introduced and passed in the State of Ohio. These laws are being revised annually to permit more area's to travel into with a concealed handgun.

So why jeopordize what we have already achieved and what will come in the future in order to proove an Ohioan has the Right to Open Carry? Get a CCL and throw a shirt over it for goodness sake.

This is from the Buckeye Firearms Association - the incident referred to is an off duty officer stopped a BG after a robbery - The BG had a cigarette lighter that looked like a handgun


> This incident is a perfect example of why openly carrying a firearm is not nearly as effective a self-defense or crime deterrent as carrying it concealed (we're Ohioans For Concealed Carry for a reason - if open carry is the best choice, why do police departments advocate concealed carry for their off-duty officers?).


If they are reading this - Hey Morons - why don't you spend more of your time trying to get conceal carry legitimized in more areas instead of raising the fears of anti-gun enthusiasts and getting the hairs raised on the back of the necks of the local law enforcement?

Sure keep it up and the only place we will ever be able to carry a handgun is down our driveways. Or maybe you'll be able to carry it anywhere in the State of Ohio but you better not discharge it.

WAKE UP! :smt076


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## kg333

Good points, SaltyDog, but I do have to ask: What's the point of having an open carry law if you expect that law to be revoked when you do open carry? It seems rather superfluous...

KG


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## DevilsJohnson

*Anti Open Carry Worries me*

I'm sorry but to exorcise one right to carry is no less important than another. Can't see why wanting to carry open and within the law is a nut-jobs desire while we got on our moral pedestal and say we have the right. I'm not saying demonstration is the way to go but these people want the same thing we do; to be able to protect themselves. If these are nuts then I'm guessing that all of us here that carry concealed are willing to support laws against open carry? And then we also support all the restrictions that have been set in place to get the CCW like having to be OK'd by a sheriff that might not want you to carry so they just say no and that's that. Or the I'm sorry but you owe child support so you can't have a CCW but we will support you but you need to leave it at home.

We are no better than those we cry foul on by picking and choosing the laws we deem correct for living in a civilized society. Isn't the "Few common sense regulations" that we keep hearing about from the government now what we think is wrong?

Again, My post really has nothing to do with these people so I guess I'm high jacking but I keep hearing this type of sentiment and I think it's the same stuff the other side wants to do to us. We just don't agree with them so they call us nut jobs. Sure we don't need these open carry walks or other grand gestures but we also don't need LEO shaking down anyone for acting within their rights. Or next time it will easily be us and by this logic we can't do or say a thing.


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## YFZsandrider

I had an incident when pulled over by a traffic officer, where I ended up knowing a little more about that particular traffic law than he did. I think often times LEO enter a situation with the idea that they are right so engrained in them that to hear otherwise, completely throws them off. 

I did not get all 'preachy' with him, but once he realized that I was more familiar with it than he.... it was comical to watch him scramble for all kinds of reasons why I wasn't driving properly!:mrgreen: I like how the ''suspect", or should I say "victim," responded to the question - why do you think you need to do this? "I don't know that I need to give a reason." When did that officer of the law, become an officer of common sense?! I guess if you're within your legal right to do something, you better ask every cop in your area if they think its a good idea first!

I would never open carry, nor do I think its very smart for anyone else to do so either. This guy is propably doing so because he is a little 'showy' with regards to his firearms, but come on. Its every person's right to be as stupid as they want


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## kev74

Bishop746 said:


> ...Give it a listen because Im curious how people will view this incident.


What strikes me is the lack of outrage that a couple of police officers are that ignorant of the law and were able to wrongly hold a law abiding citizen on his knees at gunpoint while conducting themselves in a disrespectful manor (or verbally abusing the guy, depending on your sensitivity) with almost no repercussion, other than having to half heartily apologize. If a grocery store bagger performed his job that poorly he would be fired on the spot, yet a police officer (who _should_ be held to a higher standard) gets a slap on the wrist.

Here's what I see the police officers did wrong:
- They were ignorant of the laws of their state.
- They tried to trump up charges (inciting a riot or something like that) when they didn't know what to do with the guy.
- They addressed a citizen in a disrespectful manor.
- They failed to write an incident report for several days.


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## DevilsJohnson

The first time got to listen to this it was on my laptop and couldn't hear it well. That's why I wasn't willing to make a statement about what the OPs post. 

After listening to it again with the volume up in a pair of headphones IO have to agree with Kev. These cops that state they gave the GD class over and over are nothing short of shameful. Sure they can talk about what could be and what they say the guy was doing but if he was doing it he would have been charged. I don't think I would have done what he did but again it is within his rights. The incident was nothing short of a shakedown. They found out he was able to legally own and carry a weapon their job was done..Simple as that. Allowing that kind of stuff CCW holders should be willing for the same or worse. f you're legally carrying a weapon then you'
re legal. Those LEO said they had complaints but I'll wager they didn't being if they had a door to charging the guy I think they would have being they sure were cussing the man pretty well. 
Legal is legal, getting shook down is wrong. Being held by police on a road hands on head getting cussed at and treated like some gang banger for being within his rights I can't stress how wrong that is. No matter if you agree with the law or not.

Kev I'll admit this is pretty rare :smt082 I'm with ya on this one though.


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## YFZsandrider

kev74 said:


> Here's what I see the police officers did wrong:
> - They failed to write an incident report for several days.


They propably had to figure out what to put in the report.


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## TOF

We need to force acceptance of legal open carry just as much as legal concealed carry. Our rights are our rights not a privelage to be turned on and off by some misinformed patrolman or president.

Thankfully we have enough people open carrying in Arizona that the average citizen accepts it without having a heart attack or screaming for a policeman when they see a gun.
Arizona LEO's seem to be well informed regarding firearm laws also.

tumbleweed


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## YFZsandrider

TOF said:


> We need to force acceptance of legal open carry just as much as legal concealed carry. Our rights are our rights not a privelage to be turned on and off by some misinformed patrolman or president.
> 
> Thankfully we have enough people open carrying in Arizona that the average citizen accepts it without having a heart attack or screaming for a policeman when they see a gun.
> Arizona LEO's seem to be well informed regarding firearm laws also.
> 
> tumbleweed


remember, not everyone lives in a state like Arizona. If I did such a thing around my area, people would stare with mouths partially agape and figure that I must be some form of LEO or federal agent. Of course, I don't think my tennis shoes and t-shirt would support that idea very well for me, so chances are they would stare and not know what to think.


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## zhurdan

In my opinion, anyone carrying a recording device is looking to cause a stir. It may very well have been his cell phone, but I doubt it. There's a couple of people out there that do this stuff on purpose to get attention, then they cry foul when it doesn't go the way they wanted it to. I had to fast forward thru parts as I was at work, but I just think this guy was out to prove a point. In the old days proving a point usually meant it was done at the point of a sword. He got what he expected, he shouldn't complain.


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## SaltyDog

kg333 said:


> Good points, SaltyDog, but I do have to ask: What's the point of having an open carry law if you expect that law to be revoked when you do open carry? It seems rather superfluous...
> 
> KG


I'm not condoning the actions of the Police Officers concerning Open Carry. Yes it is legal to open carry and they should know the law (I couldn't remember every law myself) but there are few instances of people actually open carrying a weapon - outside of rural area's in Ohio. Also if they do not know the law then they should have asked for Supervisory assistance rather than making assumptions.

We're not in Arizona anymore TOTO! Ohio is a totally different situation - Would people be used to seeing open carry of firearms if they saw more people doing it - NO - They would vote and pass laws to prohibit it as much as possible.

I guess you would have to know the area where he was carrying. Parma OH. While it is probably a good idea to carry a weapon there I don't know that I would advertise it by carrying open.

The point I am trying to make here is that before the conceal carry law, all of the different Counties and municipalities had their own laws concerning firearms. Under the conceal carry law the State mandated that their individual laws were null and void and that they had to follow the State Law so that it would be contiguous in Ohio. Ohio Revised Code 9.68



> (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.


So why urinate all over the right to conceal carry and what it has afforded us in the State of Ohio by now coming out of the closet with Open Carry? :watching:


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## Todd

zhurdan said:


> In my opinion, anyone carrying a recording device is looking to cause a stir.


Bingo! He just "happened" to have a recording device that he had the amazing foresight to activate as soon as he encountered the LEO? Please. Every time I hear these "open carry gone bad stories", my meter goes into the red zone.


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## TOF

SaltyDog said:


> We're not in Arizona anymore TOTO! Ohio is a totally different situation - So why urinate all over the right to conceal carry and what it has afforded us in the State of Ohio by now coming out of the closet with Open Carry? :watching:


TOTO says"Why do you feel you should urinate on either law. Did the storm drop you on your head or something"

If you don't start standing up for your rights you wont have any before long.


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## kev74

zhurdan said:


> In my opinion, anyone carrying a recording device is looking to cause a stir. It may very well have been his cell phone, but I doubt it. There's a couple of people out there that do this stuff on purpose to get attention, then they cry foul when it doesn't go the way they wanted it to. I had to fast forward thru parts as I was at work, but I just think this guy was out to prove a point. In the old days proving a point usually meant it was done at the point of a sword. He got what he expected, he shouldn't complain.


From the show, which is the only thing we have to base our assumptions on for this incident, the guy stated that he had his iphone in his hands playing music when he was approached by the cops with their guns drawn. It was then that he hit the record button on his phone. It didn't seem to me that he was going out of his way to make an example of himself. He also stated that he had been open carrying for a few years in the same town (but a different neighborhood) without being hassled.



SaltyDog said:


> So why urinate all over the right to conceal carry and what it has afforded us in the State of Ohio by now coming out of the closet with Open Carry? :watching:


If Open Carry is legal, what's the issue? It may not be the way anyone here would prefer to carry, but if its legal, than the guy's within his rights and he wasn't harming anyone or causing a disturbance.

Once we start picking and choosing specific methods that should and shouldn't be allowed under the Second Amendment then we're no batter than the gun grabbers.


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## DevilsJohnson

I personally thought it odd that the only call placed in complaint according to the documents obtained with a FIA (freedom of information act) request was from an officer from that area. If I still lived in Ohio I'd probably want a recording device on me too. I cannot count the times I have had police stop me on foot walking, with no weapon at all on me concealed or not to ask what I was doing. I was even put into a car once for standing at a phone stand...Not a booth,,,A POLE WITH A PUBLIC PHONE ON IT. because the LEO said I was hiding behind it. I was making a call. I was leaning on one shoulder and changed apparently while the LEO was driving by. I had not seen him so I really have no idea. I just got tired and switched sides. I'm not a small man and I can't hide my 5'9", 200 pound rump behind a 6" pole with a pay phone bolted to it. My brother says the jails are all still so over crowded with non violent offenders that you pretty much have to kill someone to stay but they still do things like what we hear in this taped incident. They cussed the man like a black man in Mississippi on the 50's, threatened him with charges that were not warranted, not to mention being held at gun point. All because some LEO called his office about a man with w gun. Now I'm not saying not to stop and check hi out to see if he is allowed to own a weapon but they could have easily just stopped and asked him to surrender his weapon(s) until they knew her was not a felony offender or otherwise hindered from firearm ownership. I really would expect more from people charged with enforcing the laws and especially one that taught classes about the legal carry of firearms (As the one officer cussed about on more than one occasion).

If you don't like a law then work to change it. That's what people did so we could carry both open and concealed. But you can't shake someone down because you don't agree with a law. From the interview with the "offender" he only had the permit to be able to carry in his vehicle because you cannot have a loaded weapon in your vehicle without one. So it makes sense to want to have the permit weather you carry or not being my truck gun would be a felony without that permit if I lived in Ohio.

The thing that worries me about all this he shouldn't do it stuff is that once we start not fighting to keep our rights that are afforded to us not only at the federal level with the Constitution but in this case the ORC we are allowing some ones rights to be infringed. And the next time it could be any one of us and by the logic I'm seeing here that's OK? what if any of you were pulled over but a flaming liberal police officer? He/She don't want any civilian to have a weapon. So they pull you out of the vehicle and toss you against a patrol car and start screaming and cussing and carrying on like they have the cameras of COPS on them meanwhile you say there is a permit to carry in your wallet. They don't care they say what the hell does anyone not trained formally like police are needing a weapon for. It's just stupid they say. You try in a calm even tone saying that you have this permit and it is well within your rights according to state and federal law but they don't like the idea of a civilian telling them how they need to do their job and now they want to drag you in for resisting. All you did was not come to a complete stop and not you're at gun point because you offered your drivers license along with your carry permit because you want to cooperate with police. You're not a criminal, you want to do the right thing. But to this officer you're just another wanna be Clint Eastwood because now they find out that you not only have a pistol but an extra mag and maybe even a BUG stashed away in an ankle rig(like many here talk about having). "What do you need two guns for?!?!?!?!?!" your are told "you're just making it harder on me!". And you all know this has happened. You might have even spoke out against such closed mindedness saying you have the right but this liberal sheriff or that politician says you don't need it so what have it? That's what LEO are for.

Because you have the right. you have followed the law and you want to be able to protect yourself. Just like that guy did. He had a carry weapon and a BUG. t be no different than you stopping to tie your shoe in a parking lot on the way to your car and someone sees the OWB rig on you or the ankle holster. You followed the rules but so what. Who needs a Sig Sauer, two mags and a 38 on their ankle? Me if I choose to! Because it's my right as an American. I have broken no laws. Why are you harassing me?

And just so you all know..There is a law on the books here in my Ol' Kentucky home that states In Kentucky you need a license to walk around nude on your property.
• In Lexington, Kentucky, it's illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your pocket. Link


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## DevilsJohnson

I like this one too

Lexington: By law, anyone who has been drinking is "sober" until he or she "cannot hold onto the ground." :anim_lol:


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## tekhead1219

DevilsJohnson said:


> I cannot count the times I have had police stop me on foot walking, with no weapon at all on me concealed or not to ask what I was doing. I was even put into a car once for standing at a phone stand...Not a booth,,,A POLE WITH A PUBLIC PHONE ON IT.


AHA....you're that shady looking character I saw on that Post Office bulletin board from the FBI. Based on your statements, you are without a doubt one of those right wing radicals (I bet you have guns too). Step into my car!!:anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## DevilsJohnson

:anim_lol::anim_lol:

That's about how I felt when I was at the phone thing. You would have thought I was planning some bank job or something. The guy is asking me for ID and saying I was hiding from him and I asked how? It's not even a booth!!?! I am taller than the stand is!! I was young then and had long hair but dang! It was just one of those poles with a phone bolted to it. WE didn't have cell phones back then..It was the 80's! I wasn't strong enough to carry one of those huge things with a car battery to power it :anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## tekhead1219

DevilsJohnson said:


> :anim_lol::anim_lol:
> 
> That's about how I felt when I was at the phone thing. You would have thought I was planning some bank job or something. The guy is asking me for ID and saying I was hiding from him and I asked how? It's not even a booth!!?! I am taller than the stand is!! I was young then and had long hair but dang! It was just one of those poles with a phone bolted to it. WE didn't have cell phones back then..It was the 80's! I wasn't strong enough to carry one of those huge things with a car battery to power it :anim_lol::anim_lol:




:smt023


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## SaltyDog

TOF said:


> TOTO says"Why do you feel you should urinate on either law. Did the storm drop you on your head or something"
> 
> If you don't start standing up for your rights you wont have any before long.


I do stand up for my rights - We have the right to conceal and open carry in Ohio - I just don't stand under the hornet's nest and poke a stick at it - TOTO :anim_lol:

It must be the Conservative in me. The Law Enforcement associations in Ohio were adamently against Conceal Carry in Ohio and I think they still have a hard time accepting it. As far as open carry goes it is just not something commonly seen in Ohio - With all the unnecessary shootings in our Nation right now I can only guess that Law Enforcement is on their toes - so to speak - to prevent a possible murder suicide as an example.


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## kev74

SaltyDog said:


> It must be the Conservative in me. The Law Enforcement associations in Ohio were adamently against Conceal Carry in Ohio and I think they still have a hard time accepting it. As far as open carry goes it is just not something commonly seen in Ohio - With all the unnecessary shootings in our Nation right now I can only guess that Law Enforcement is on their toes - so to speak - to prevent a possible murder suicide as an example.


I don't see how the heightened awareness of the police toward "prevent(ing) a possible murder suicide as an example" in any way justifies their behavior and actions toward a law abiding citizen. This behavior was uncalled for and should have resulted in a far more severe punishment than a notation in the officer's record.

I also take issue with your mention of "all the unnecessary shootings in our Nation right now". You are aware that violent crime is and has been on the decline for the past several years, right? I hope you're not just basing that statement on the attention the media has given to gun related crime over the past 5 months - which may or may not be the result of an anti-gun lobby and or an administration making an effort for such stories to get extra attention.

:watching:


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## DevilsJohnson

I think the bottom line of it is as stated The Law Enforcement associations in Ohio were adamantly against Conceal Carry in Ohio so to actually see the weapon must have been a slap in the face of the law and was dealt with in kind. I really don't see how the population up there can say it was the right way for these LEO to react. Sure I'm not saying they have to know every law but there is system of higher ups that should know more than the average roll patrol. But really. I'd like my dept to know the laws when it concerns a weapon. Especially if they are going to be protecting the law abiding citizen for the suicide bombers that Johnny Open Carry was not.


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## Bishop746

The first thing that stood out to me was how preachy the young man was. Cops are very practical people and I was just wanting him to tell the cops that there is a Open Carry law in Ohio. Instead he talks about educating people and how hes not a threat. Be straightforward with the cops.

I have very mixed thougths on Open Carry. I would not recommend it to anyone unless they felt an immediate threat to their lives and were waiting on the paperwork to clear on a concealed permit. An example of this would be someone who has been threatened in the past by a spouse or co-worker.

Let me throw this out there. Has Open Carrybeen made obsolete by Concealed Carry? Concealed Carry legislation is a better, more practical legislative answer to a problem and yet it seems we are determined to keep up the practise because its falls under the umbrella of a"right" and gun owners are extremely (understandably) aware of letting a right lapse.


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## SaltyDog

kev74 said:


> I also take issue with your mention of "all the unnecessary shootings in our Nation right now". You are aware that violent crime is and has been on the decline for the past several years, right? I hope you're not just basing that statement on the attention the media has given to gun related crime over the past 5 months - which may or may not be the result of an anti-gun lobby and or an administration making an effort for such stories to get extra attention.
> 
> :watching:


Sorry you take offense with that - call it what you will - unnecessary shooting, terrorism, crime - it sure isn't a necessary shooting. I realize the liberal media is playing it's part in reporting shootings but let's face it - they report on issues that make money - so somebody out there must be wanting to know about it.

Yes I realize that violent crime is on the decline - but when I hear on Fox News (conservative news) that 3 Army recuiters are shot down standing outside the recruiter station or that the dear Doctor giving mid term abortions is gunned down at his church that these are unnecessary shootings - Wouldn't you agree?


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## SaltyDog

kev74 said:


> I don't see how the heightened awareness of the police toward "prevent(ing) a possible murder suicide as an example" in any way justifies their behavior and actions toward a law abiding citizen. This behavior was uncalled for and should have resulted in a far more severe punishment than a notation in the officer's record.
> 
> :watching:


It doesn't


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## kev74

SaltyDog said:


> Sorry you take offense with that - call it what you will - unnecessary shooting, terrorism, crime - it sure isn't a necessary shooting. I realize the liberal media is playing it's part in reporting shootings but let's face it - they report on issues that make money - so somebody out there must be wanting to know about it.
> 
> Yes I realize that violent crime is on the decline - but when I hear on Fox News (conservative news) that 3 Army recuiters are shot down standing outside the recruiter station or that the dear Doctor giving mid term abortions is gunned down at his church that these are unnecessary shootings - Wouldn't you agree?


Two incidents aren't enough for me to start handing over my civil liberties. More people are killed by cars each year than by guns, but we don't outlaw cars or hold people with drivers licenses at gunpoint. More kids are killed by swimming pools each year than by guns, but we don't outlaw swimming pools and the police don't hold people openly carrying towels at gunpoint.

There are over 350,000,000 people in the United States. Even if I hear a gun related violent crime story on the news every night of the week, I'm not going to give away any of the rights granted to me in the constitution.


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## SaltyDog

Bishop746 said:


> The first thing that stood out to me was how preachy the young man was. Cops are very practical people and I was just wanting him to tell the cops that there is a Open Carry law in Ohio. Instead he talks about educating people and how hes not a threat. Be straightforward with the cops.


That young man had an agenda - to open carry until he got pulled over and confronted by the Police at which time he would make his 2nd Amendment statement, recorded of course, and then get on a web site or maybe even on the news. WOW.

Let me make this clear NOBODY open carries in Ohio! I've lived here (off and on) for over 50 years. The only people that open carry are Police, usually hunters, and on occasion some farmers. It is an oddity for someone in Ohio, especially in an urban environment, to open carry. I'm all for open carry. It is our Right. It lead to Conceal Carry in Ohio.



> I have very mixed thougths on Open Carry. I would not recommend it to anyone unless they felt an immediate threat to their lives and were waiting on the paperwork to clear on a concealed permit. An example of this would be someone who has been threatened in the past by a spouse or co-worker.


I like conceal carry better for the reason that it is going to be a surprise to a would be assailant. It can give you an edge as they say in the westerns. You have less of a chance of becoming a victim yourself with conceal carry as you may not become a target of a criminal intent on selling your firearm on the black market.



> Let me throw this out there. Has Open Carrybeen made obsolete by Concealed Carry? Concealed Carry legislation is a better, more practical legislative answer to a problem and yet it seems we are determined to keep up the practise because its falls under the umbrella of a"right" and gun owners are extremely (understandably) aware of letting a right lapse.


Has Open Carry been made obsolete by Conceal Carry - Yes in a way. First you cannot have one without the other. Second - in Ohio - CC has unified the State firearms law into one neat package eliminating what one community had as compared to another, it permits the carry of a loaded weapon in a vehicle, which as the young man pointed out he couldn't do without his CCL. It gives J Q Public a warm fuzzy to think that CCL holders have been through some training to carry a weapon - if they only knew. It permits you to carry a weapon across State lines with reciprocity.

We have gained a considerable amount of ground with the Conceal Carry laws and in order to continue IMO we need to push legislation to decrease the restrictions placed upon us under that law. If the young man would put as much effort towards that end as he did with open carry then I am all for it.

The Open Carry Walk would have been a great opportunity to bring Conceal Carry to States like Wisconsin or Illinois. That is if they have Open Carry Laws which I don't know. That makes sense to me.


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## SaltyDog

kev74 said:


> Two incidents aren't enough for me to start handing over my civil liberties. More people are killed by cars each year than by guns, but we don't outlaw cars or hold people with drivers licenses at gunpoint. More kids are killed by swimming pools each year than by guns, but we don't outlaw swimming pools and the police don't hold people openly carrying towels at gunpoint.
> 
> There are over 350,000,000 people in the United States. Even if I hear a gun related violent crime story on the news every night of the week, I'm not going to give away any of the rights granted to me in the constitution.


Well I could have listed a lot more but why waist the 1's and 0's

What the hell are you talking about - I'm not some liberal democrat dumb ass!


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## DevilsJohnson

I'm wondering if these incidents the shooters were carrying open. I'd bet those that got hit at the recruiter office the shiny new Muslim wasn't walking around with his weapon for everyone to see. Say the guy that got the Dr. didn't go into it with a weapon in plain sight. Because criminals don't do that. They keep their weapon concealed until they are in the act of committing their crime. They don't bother with permits, they don't bother with legal sales. They get a weapon, they hide it, then they use it and if possible they hide it again.

I'm not saying everyone needs to carry open. I'm not saying anyone has to. But if you are a legal gun owner and you are allowed to in your state then you should be able to do so without being cussed out while held at gun point.
This must be on many people that carry's mind being many of us go to great lengths to keep our weapons hidden. Because we all know that if someone sees it it might be us on our knees with hands on our heads. 

What a gift we receive for being law abiding :smt083:watching:


----------



## SaltyDog

DevilsJohnson said:


> I think the bottom line of it is as stated The Law Enforcement associations in Ohio were adamantly against Conceal Carry in Ohio so to actually see the weapon must have been a slap in the face of the law and was dealt with in kind. I really don't see how the population up there can say it was the right way for these LEO to react. Sure I'm not saying they have to know every law but there is system of higher ups that should know more than the average roll patrol. But really. I'd like my dept to know the laws when it concerns a weapon. Especially if they are going to be protecting the law abiding citizen for the suicide bombers that Johnny Open Carry was not.


Well DJ you know how this Police State is? There are now even cops in towns with populations less than 100 - How can you justify that? I have a relation in Law Enforcement in the northern segment of the State and he still has a problem with it - civilians with guns, no training - that type of mentality. I like when I am carrying around him. I'm BAD.

Perhaps it is a job security thing - okay civilians have guns - crime goes down - do we need as many Police as we have now?


----------



## SaltyDog

kev74 said:


> Two incidents aren't enough for me to start handing over my civil liberties. More people are killed by cars each year than by guns, but we don't outlaw cars or hold people with drivers licenses at gunpoint. More kids are killed by swimming pools each year than by guns, but we don't outlaw swimming pools and the police don't hold people openly carrying towels at gunpoint.
> 
> There are over 350,000,000 people in the United States. Even if I hear a gun related violent crime story on the news every night of the week, I'm not going to give away any of the rights granted to me in the constitution.


Sorry Kev got carried away :mrgreen:


----------



## DevilsJohnson

:smt082

Well you may well be right about them feeling nervous about armed citizens. But I would imagine the bulk will have as much or more training than most LEO get. The couple I still know around the Cincinnati area shoot to qualify and that's it. While the several CCW holders I know practice and/or train at least once a week. I think I would rather see one of those armed citizens rather than those couple LEO if there was a bad situation going on. And those officers are friends of mine.:smt082

I'll bet you do get a little rise from that look he gives you eh? :anim_lol: Bad..that's funny. Sounds like something I would say :smt082


----------



## SaltyDog

DevilsJohnson said:


> They get a weapon, they hide it, then they use it


Me too!



> I'm not saying everyone needs to carry open. I'm not saying anyone has to. But if you are a legal gun owner and you are allowed to in your state then you should be able to do so without being cussed out while held at gun point.
> This must be on many people that carry's mind being many of us go to great lengths to keep our weapons hidden. Because we all know that if someone sees it it might be us on our knees with hands on our heads.
> 
> What a gift we receive for being law abiding :smt083:watching:


I doubt they open carried the recruiters were shot from a passing SUV and I don't know about the other.

Hey I AGREE about open carry - just not about how this young man went about it. And the Police officer involved is a Richard Cranium. Jeeesh :smt119


----------



## SaltyDog

DevilsJohnson said:


> :smt082
> 
> Well you may well be right about them feeling nervous about armed citizens. But I would imagine the bulk will have as much or more training than most LEO get. The couple I still know around the Cincinnati area shoot to qualify and that's it. While the several CCW holders I know practice and/or train at least once a week. I think I would rather see one of those armed citizens rather than those couple LEO if there was a bad situation going on. And those officers are friends of mine.:smt082
> 
> I'll bet you do get a little rise from that look he gives you eh? :anim_lol: Bad..that's funny. Sounds like something I would say :smt082


Yea I'm not a basher - I have too many relatives in Law Enforcement including my son - but that one is a DH also :smt082 Maybe it's the Lake that affects them or the fact that they live one on top of the other. Did I mention I hate big cities? :mrgreen:


----------



## kev74

SaltyDog said:


> Sorry Kev got carried away :mrgreen:


Not a problem. That's what happens when we argue the same side of an issue.

From listening to the program, I didn't get the impression that this guy was out to make a statement that day. He had stated that he open carried for the past couple of years in the same town when ever the weather (and clothing required) would permit without incident. And he sounded like a smart enough guy that if he was out to make some kind of statement, he should have been able to get a lot more millage out of this incident than appearing on an internet radio show.


----------



## kg333

kev74 said:


> From listening to the program, I didn't get the impression that this guy was out to make a statement that day. He had stated that he open carried for the past couple of years in the same town when ever the weather (and clothing required) would permit without incident. And he sounded like a smart enough guy that if he was out to make some kind of statement, he should have been able to get a lot more millage out of this incident than appearing on an internet radio show.


+1, although I'm not buying his full version of the story either...there's no record button on an iPhone to my knowledge, and I doubt he was fiddling through menus while the officer pointed a weapon at him and told him to get his hands on his head.

KG


----------



## SaltyDog

Well after digging around for a few minutes I found out what has gotten the whole OC thing going in northern Ohio



> Originally Posted by Cleveland Plain Dealer
> Concealed or open carrying of guns at issue in city case
> Cleveland case exemplifies the judicial debate about legal firearms
> Concealed or open carrying of guns at issue in city case - Cleveland.com
> 
> Monday, September 29, 2008
> Reginald Fields
> Plain Dealer Columbus Bureau
> 
> Greg Llewellyn, his girlfriend and four friends were sipping hot tea outside a West Side coffee shop on a recent August night when a pair of Cleveland police officers approached with guns drawn.
> 
> Get on the ground, an officer ordered, forcing the surprised group to set aside their drinks and hit the sidewalk belly-down. An officer began searching one of Llewellyn's friends before abruptly ending the suspense and demanding to know who had the gun.
> "I am the one who has the weapon," the 26-year-old Llewellyn answered. The butt of a black, holstered and loaded CZ-52 pistol -- a Czech-made gun -- was visible tucked behind him in his belt.
> The officers arrested him for carrying a concealed weapon. Llewellyn protested, saying he was not trying to hide the gun, because Ohio law allowed him to openly carry it in public.
> 
> The officers didn't buy his argument and sent Llewellyn to jail and confiscated his rare pistol. Unless he was truly trying to hide the gun, the law appears to be on Llewellyn's side.
> 
> For over a year now, while most attention has focused on who can get a concealed-carry permit, Ohio law has allowed most adults to walk down the street visibly armed -- no permit needed, no training required and no need to register the gun.
> 
> "There is no state or federal law that says you cannot carry openly, except in a few specific places," said Jeff Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry. "So walking down the street with a gun is legal."
> 
> That's a dangerous scenario that conjures up memories of Wild West movies, opponents say. "What are we teaching the next generation? Are we saying we live in a society where everyone should openly carry a gun?" asked Toby Hoover of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence.
> 
> "Most of us don't want to be walking down the street with someone who has a gun, but piece by piece by piece, nobody has a right to say that," she said. "Nobody has a right anymore to say, 'I don't want a gun near me.' "
> 
> A 2003 Ohio Supreme Court ruling said openly carrying a weapon was a constitutional right but that restrictions could be placed on concealing firearms. That latter stipulation prompted House Bill 347, which put in place uniform rules for concealed carrying and created Ohio's "Right to Bear Arms" law in March 2007 to clearly state that open carry was legal. In fact, to get away from the legalese sometimes decipherable only by jurists, the Ohio attorney general's office issued a primer on the state's gun laws that includes this line: "The open carry of firearms is legal activity in Ohio."
> 
> Still, that doesn't mean that everyone is clear on the law or even knows it exists.
> "I tell people, if you're going to open carry, you might as well carry a retainer check, too," said gun rights attorney Ken Hanson of Delaware County, whose clients include the National Rifle Association. "Because you are going to create some excitement, and it is going to create police encounters."
> Ohio is one of about 15 states that allow unlicensed open carrying everywhere with a few exceptions, such as for government buildings and establishments where liquor is sold. There have been confrontations between open carriers and police elsewhere, too.
> 
> Ohio law allows open carrying for adult nonfelons who are not brandishing or using the firearm in a threatening way. People convicted of misdemeanor drug offenses are also prohibited from openly carrying a gun. And unlike rules for getting concealed-carry permits, which require holders to pay for training before buying their licenses, there are no such rules for open carrying, according to the law.
> 
> It has been a good month for gun-rights supporters, giving them renewed confidence in their right to carry openly, even as some question that provision of the law. First, a law relaxing some concealed-carry rules took effect on Sept. 9. And then on Sept. 18, in a 4-3 decision, the Ohio Supreme Court said local governments cannot pass ordinances that conflict with the state gun law. The decision struck a blow against a lawsuit Cleveland filed against the state a week after House Bill 347 took effect. The suit, in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court, contends the gun law illegally tramples the city's rights under the state constitution to self-govern and reasonably regulate firearms.
> 
> The issue of open carry could offer a new twist, and cases like Llewellyn's could be at the center of the debate. "I think this could be the next big challenge to Ohio's gun laws, even though the law is clearly on our side," said Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry, which advises its members to open carry if they wish but to be cautious about it.
> 
> Hoover, from the anti-gun coalition, said she advises people all the time to call police if they see a person with a gun, despite the law.
> 
> "Because there is no way to know if that person is going somewhere to commit a crime with it, there's no way to know, so call the police," Hoover said. "I still think this part of the law can be tested."
> 
> The law does not explicitly state what is considered concealed carry. And Llewellyn himself questions whether he could have violated the statute since part of his gun, which he carried for three weeks before his arrest, was hidden beneath his belt line.
> 
> "It was in a military holster with a flap over the top, so I wonder if they consider that concealed," he said. "But it's a big, hulking holster with an extra clip, so you could clearly see it from the back. I mean, they had three calls to 9-1-1 that night."
> 
> Cleveland has a local ordinance prohibiting open carry, and police are under orders by Mayor Frank Jackson to continue enforcing the local rules despite the state law, according to Lt. Thomas Stacho, a department spokesman. However, Llewellyn was not charged with violating the city ordinance, just the state law. Unfamiliar with the case, Stacho said that meant that the arresting officers must have felt Llewellyn was hiding the gun. The Cuyahoga County prosecutor's office did not respond to requests for comment on the case.
> 
> Llewellyn is a transplant from New Hampshire who has called Ohio home the past 18 months but has moved to several Cleveland addresses. A bicyclist who works as a bike mechanic, Llewellyn said he was robbed at gunpoint earlier this year for the $5 he had in his pocket.
> 
> He decided then he wanted to get a gun for protection and bought his pistol from a former roommate for $100. But because he had recently moved (and has since moved again) Llewellyn had not established residency for at least four months to qualify for a concealed-carry permit. He then learned that he could carry openly until he could get a concealed license.
> 
> He was arrested on Aug. 18, pleaded not guilty last week and was assigned a public defender.
> 
> "I think my case is pretty clear-cut," he said. "Any lawyer who understands the law should be able to help me get this dropped and get my weapon back." Hanson, the gun-rights attorney, said that until the confusion over the law subsides, he worries a situation like Llewellyn's could end up worse. "My biggest fear is you are going to have a police officer who is not versed [on the law] and you have a carrier who is not versed, and you have a tragic situation," Hanson said. "That's why to me, it's not really a legal question anymore," he said. "I think at this point it is more a public-education issue."
> 
> To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
> [email protected], 1-800-228-8272


And this is why they hold annual OC Walks and folks in the Cleveland and Toledo area are pushing OC. 
So - he has the handgun tucked behind his belt (inside or outside the pants) with only the butt of the gun visible - Is that OC??

Now I understand what all the hooha is about. One side note I found this post at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum43/23777.html



> This has nothing to do with a "personal feud". Greg Llewellyn is no longer a part of my life. I would prefer never to hear from him again, but you provided him with the IP address my friend posted from. This guy is an army deserter (we know this because his grandfather came to my parents house and told stated that they were trying to find him), and the reason three people called 911 on him is because they were aware of his intent.
> 
> The Cleveland police were aware of the issues that had occured, having just days before assisted him in breaking into my house, and assisted me in reposessing his car, and they had officers watching him. His intent was to threaten and intimidate. And that is pretty much that. It's neither unsubstantiated or unsupported. The evidence is far more than overwhelming. This is the real reason he took the plea.
> 
> I support open carry, and I support concealed carry. My father is a marksman, and my brother is a Marine. I am a felon, and will never be able to carry. I am a victim because as a felon it is difficult to protect myself from Mr. Llewellyn. Mr. Llewellyn has made me into a victim. I feel it incumbent upon me to bring out the truth regarding his actions.
> 
> Greg Llewellyn is not someone who should be open carrying, concealed carrying, working in law enforcement, or anything else. He is a psychopath who lives in a fantasy world that he has manufactured. He is certainly not someone who should have page after page of website forums dedicated to his support.
> 
> EDITED BY MODERATOR
> --------------------------
> 
> Keep personal feuds off the forum.
> 
> Thread locked.
> 
> Last edited on Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 10:42 pm by interestedpartyincleve


Sounds like a great group of upstanding citizens. :smt033


----------



## Kyle1337

Okay, I notice in some of the earlier posts there were some people arguing open carry...why have it if there is a shall issue conceal carry? Well, my story is rather long, so I'll shorten it up. I was adopted, had a name change, before I was 18, but my BC said different name, The court said they couldn't find my legal name change documents when I tried to get them to prove what my real name was for a CCW application so for 2 years I opened carry since it was legal without a permit. I was stopped by the police on one occasion no problem, and stopped by tribal police on another and apparently their laws are different and they tore my car apart and took apart my pistol and threw it on the side of the road and told to have a nice day. Anyway back to what I was saying, some people have a legit reason to open carry because sometimes the name check system can be messed up when you've changed names or been adopted and so on. I got to protect myself according to the law, it did ruffle some feathers, but if I'm protected that's all that matters to me.


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## SaltyDog

Heard that - bureaucracy at it's finest. 

I agree - like I said you can't have one without the other.


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## stickhauler

*You Never Lived Around Dayton Then....*



SaltyDog said:


> That young man had an agenda - to open carry until he got pulled over and confronted by the Police at which time he would make his 2nd Amendment statement, recorded of course, and then get on a web site or maybe even on the news. WOW.
> 
> Let me make this clear NOBODY open carries in Ohio! I've lived here (off and on) for over 50 years. The only people that open carry are Police, usually hunters, and on occasion some farmers. It is an oddity for someone in Ohio, especially in an urban environment, to open carry. I'm all for open carry. It is our Right. It lead to Conceal Carry in Ohio.
> 
> I like conceal carry better for the reason that it is going to be a surprise to a would be assailant. It can give you an edge as they say in the westerns. You have less of a chance of becoming a victim yourself with conceal carry as you may not become a target of a criminal intent on selling your firearm on the black market.
> 
> Has Open Carry been made obsolete by Conceal Carry - Yes in a way. First you cannot have one without the other. Second - in Ohio - CC has unified the State firearms law into one neat package eliminating what one community had as compared to another, it permits the carry of a loaded weapon in a vehicle, which as the young man pointed out he couldn't do without his CCL. It gives J Q Public a warm fuzzy to think that CCL holders have been through some training to carry a weapon - if they only knew. It permits you to carry a weapon across State lines with reciprocity.
> 
> We have gained a considerable amount of ground with the Conceal Carry laws and in order to continue IMO we need to push legislation to decrease the restrictions placed upon us under that law. If the young man would put as much effort towards that end as he did with open carry then I am all for it.
> 
> The Open Carry Walk would have been a great opportunity to bring Conceal Carry to States like Wisconsin or Illinois. That is if they have Open Carry Laws which I don't know. That makes sense to me.


If you have lived in Ohio for 50 years and say NOBODY open carries, my uncle always had a Ruger Blackhawk strapped to his hip, and carried it proudly all around Ohio, well before the days of concealed carry in Ohio.

I have no reason to open carry, but I'll be damned if I'll fault a law abiding citizen who chooses to do so. I also won't criticize people who hunt, who trap shoot, or whatever form of shooting sports they choose to participate in, for one reason: The day we allow the government to limit the rights of any law abiding citizen to practice their God given right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason, we give a little more ground to them, and eventually they'll decide to limit OUR right to do as we damned well please.

Most law enforcement officers are pretty decent people, just regular Joes & Janes doing a damned tough job with little praise. Sadly, the impression many get of law enforcement is based on the actions of a few who act much like Barney Fife, and shouldn't be carrying a gun and wearing a badge in the first place.

I have a friend who works as a range safety officer at my gun club, he refuses to get a CCW because he doesn't want to have his "name on a list." I respect that choice, he open carries, he also has an advantage of dealing with most local law enforcement officers, as they conduct clinics at our range on a regular basis. So, I doubt he's had a hassle with open carry.

In my job as a trucker, I run into cops all the time who don't know the laws they enforce, yet they'll preach "ignorance of the law is no excuse." It's pretty damned sad when a cop has to look through their little law book to try to find an offense to ticket or jail you for.


----------



## DevilsJohnson

> . Did I mention I hate big cities?


You're preacin' to the choir now. I bumped all around the country living in the big cities because that was where the action is. I moved to Somerset Ky after seeing a guy shot for twenty bucks of rock cocaine in front of my house. Somerset become too crowded for me a few years ago and I moved to a tiny town with one gas station. I have plenty of room to move around and even have a place to shoot right here. I think back to living in those apartments and wonder how I didn't go nuts. The city is fine for those that like it. I'll take my time out here where the pavement ends. People carry open around here just because that's what they've always done. I actually know one man that is letting his CCW expire saying it's just too much trouble. Sait it took him 25 minutes to get through one of those check points because when you get pulled over you're supposed ot hand your permit over with your license. If the LEO is in a bad mood or is a no gun type they will keep you thee a while and act foolish asking to search the vehicle and why you have a gun bla, bla, bla. WE don't even have a cop in town anymore. The last guy left an no one wants the job. I guess because there's not much going on around here. People pretty much just take care of it on their own anyway.

They (these cities) that are having such a problem with any carry need to calm down or at the least just tell everyone that don't want guns around them to put up those signs saying no weapons here please. I don't think it has to be a big fancy sign. I've seen them written in marker and people pay attention. The tobacco store in town raffles off a couple guns a month with those push card things. It's one of the busiest places in town:mrgreen:

I'm still not sure what all the hoopla is about. I have yet to see some guy with a holstered weapon in plain sight just go on a shooting spree. I've seen those guys stop a robbery or two over the years. These anti gun people should do what they all try and tell me when I crab about all this liberal government and try it before you bash it. Hell I'd let them shoot one or two of mine..Come on out, might find out you like to shoot after all:anim_lol:
Boohoo, you can't go anywhere and be free of weapons. I have to go out side to smoke everywhere these days.And all this political correct nonsense and give little billy a medal even when they lose makes me ill but I can't seem to stop that either. As my Dad would have said you give them the world with a fence around it and they'll want a tater patch in hell:smt082

I'm not too willing ot be giving up my rights any time soon. Maybe they need to work on getting rid of some of these dumb laws on the books on Ohio..For Instance.

•In Cleveland, Ohio, women are forbidden from wearing patent leather shoes, lest men see reflections of their underwear.

• Columbus: It is illegal for stores to sell corn flakes on Sunday.

• In ohio it is illegal to ride on the roof of a taxi cab

• In ohio it is illegal to run out of gas

• In Ohio women are forbidden from wearing patent leather shoes, lest men see reflections of their underwear 

Link to some dumb laws


----------



## zhurdan

stickhauler said:


> I have no reason to open carry, but I'll be damned if I'll fault a law abiding citizen who chooses to do so. I also won't criticize people who hunt, who trap shoot, or whatever form of shooting sports they choose to participate in, for one reason: The day we allow the government to limit the rights of any law abiding citizen to practice their God given right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason, we give a little more ground to them, and eventually they'll decide to limit OUR right to do as we damned well please.


I don't think anyone is faulting him for open carrying, but for the fact that he had the almost impossible foresight to have a recording device to catch it all on tape. He can open carry all day long, but he doesn't need to try and make a federal case out of it by recording it and hoping to get them to do something illegal so he can stand up and say..."See how cool I am, I'm a protester." There are better ways to get your point across than provocation of the police. It may be necessary at times, but this isn't one of them. He already has the right to open carry, why is he trying to "catch" the police doing someting wrong with a recording device? He's a trouble maker looking for his 15 minutes of fame, and a blight on honest gun owners. Now, the next guy who gets stopped for open carry will not recieve any courtesy whatsoever. If I ever met this guy, I'd want to punch him in the nose.


----------



## SaltyDog

stickhauler said:


> If you have lived in Ohio for 50 years and say NOBODY open carries, my uncle always had a Ruger Blackhawk strapped to his hip, and carried it proudly all around Ohio, well before the days of concealed carry in Ohio.
> 
> I have no reason to open carry, but I'll be damned if I'll fault a law abiding citizen who chooses to do so. I also won't criticize people who hunt, who trap shoot, or whatever form of shooting sports they choose to participate in, for one reason: The day we allow the government to limit the rights of any law abiding citizen to practice their God given right to keep and bear arms for whatever reason, we give a little more ground to them, and eventually they'll decide to limit OUR right to do as we damned well please.
> 
> Most law enforcement officers are pretty decent people, just regular Joes & Janes doing a damned tough job with little praise. Sadly, the impression many get of law enforcement is based on the actions of a few who act much like Barney Fife, and shouldn't be carrying a gun and wearing a badge in the first place.
> 
> I have a friend who works as a range safety officer at my gun club, he refuses to get a CCW because he doesn't want to have his "name on a list." I respect that choice, he open carries, he also has an advantage of dealing with most local law enforcement officers, as they conduct clinics at our range on a regular basis. So, I doubt he's had a hassle with open carry.
> 
> In my job as a trucker, I run into cops all the time who don't know the laws they enforce, yet they'll preach "ignorance of the law is no excuse." It's pretty damned sad when a cop has to look through their little law book to try to find an offense to ticket or jail you for.


I was born and raised in Springfield

My bust - should have said ALMOST nobody :mrgreen:


----------



## SaltyDog

zhurdan said:


> I don't think anyone is faulting him for open carrying, but for the fact that he had the almost impossible foresight to have a recording device to catch it all on tape. He can open carry all day long, but he doesn't need to try and make a federal case out of it by recording it and hoping to get them to do something illegal so he can stand up and say..."See how cool I am, I'm a protester." There are better ways to get your point across than provocation of the police. It may be necessary at times, but this isn't one of them. He already has the right to open carry, why is he trying to "catch" the police doing someting wrong with a recording device? He's a trouble maker looking for his 15 minutes of fame, and a blight on honest gun owners. Now, the next guy who gets stopped for open carry will not recieve any courtesy whatsoever. If I ever met this guy, I'd want to punch him in the nose.


It must be an Open Carry thing - About the same time our friend is having problems in Parma OH this is reported in Lorain County OH - just a 30 minute ride from Parma.
http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=31675



> I was walking my dog, Nick, and carrying a piece of trash I had been looking at for the past two weeks. Since no one else picked it up I thought I would and carry it out of the woods. As Nick and I approached the wooden bridge I noticed the Park Ranger looking intense coming my way. I activated my digital voice recorder (MP3 player) just in time for me to release my dog and get hand cuffed. I was dis-armed and the Ranger put my Baretta in his belt,I had advised the Ranger not to drop my Baretta in the mud, he was also toting my 100 lb. Germen Shepard, Nick. I was accused of shooting on Metro parks property. He got a complaint of shooting on the east side of the vermilion river. I'm in hand cuffs. Hes got my Baretta in his belt..We reach his truck, and put Nick in the back of his truck for safety. He checks my weapon for recent shooting. Debate over open and concealed carry. He dropped one of my live bullets. I got arrested for carrying trash out of the park with a dog. I was returned my weapon and mag. My gun is clean.. Not arrested.. we are still Looking for the bullet he dropped. I've been re armed. Ranger went to Sandusky Police Academy. He loves Nick. We make small talk. He wants to call the reporting source. Report of 5 shots in the woods, [cell phone number deleted - JK]. These were two elderly people that were bird watching. Nick and I were walking up to them while the Male was trying to talk to a "barn sparrow". Nick started barking and the male of the two explained to me that the whistle he was making affected dogs just like it did the birds. I told him "good luck" and went on down the trails. My intent was not to disrupt what they were doing.


Seems that all the OC folks up there carry a handgun and a recording device. :smt033

Hey that's what he gets for interrupting an old couple (Hey that may include me) from calling in a warbler :anim_lol:


----------



## SaltyDog

DevilsJohnson said:


> I'm not too willing ot be giving up my rights any time soon. Maybe they need to work on getting rid of some of these dumb laws on the books on Ohio..For Instance.


Sometimes they get it right though

Link to Buckeye Firearms Association Ohio SB-184


----------



## kev74

kg333 said:


> ...there's no record button on an iPhone to my knowledge, and I doubt he was fiddling through menus while the officer pointed a weapon at him and told him to get his hands on his head.





zhurdan said:


> I don't think anyone is faulting him for open carrying, but for the fact that he had the almost impossible foresight to have a recording device to catch it all on tape.


For what its worth, my last 2 cell phones (an LG and a Motorola) both have a voice record button on the side of the phone. One touch and you're recording sounds. My current phone, the Motorola, will record video if you hit a button on the front of the phone twice. Its not a big production to record something.


----------



## zhurdan

kev74 said:


> For what its worth, my last 2 cell phones (an LG and a Motorola) both have a voice record button on the side of the phone. One touch and you're recording sounds. My current phone, the Motorola, will record video if you hit a button on the front of the phone twice. Its not a big production to record something.


Kev,
I know it can be done, my phone has it too. My point is, who would think to activate them? Do people record the conversation every time they get pulled over for a tail light or speeding? I'm guessing no. There have been many incidents where the whole shebang is recorded, and then they end up either on a radio show or youtube because they felt mistreated. It just bothers me that people who are obviously looking for attention complain when they get it. I said this once before... "open carry is like going to the bar to pick up chicks with your junk hanging out on a cold day. It puts you at a disadvantage because they can see what you're packing." I can't remember if it was here or somewhere else, but there was a discussion about if a bad guy walked into or was preparing to rob a place, the first person getting shot is the one with the gun exposed on their hip.

I dunno... it just rubs me the wrong way when people try to walk the line of legality rather than just follow the law. He has the right to open carry, but why does he need to get lippy with the police? It's like someone who's talking to the police talking louder and saying "I have my rights" so everyone can see them be a big tough guy. Protecting our rights has more to do with pressuring legislators than puffing up to a cop who's just doing his job. Ten bucks says this isn't the first time this guy has had a run-in with the police. He's looking for trouble, and it's finding him.


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## mels95yj

I'm sure there's some that carry a recording device just to get their 15 minutes of fame. However, I think some use them to protect themselves from the LEO's that have an attitude problem. If this guy told people "The cop was rude and yelling at me", nobody would put much thought into it, but by hearing it they can see what was said, etc. I mean, open carry is legal in certain areas...end of story. If somebody doesn't like it, then that's a personal belief and not law. Some people in this country believe nobody should have a gun period, but luckily we have laws that state otherwise. 

Let it be known, that I've never carried openly nor do I plan on it. I've got my CCDW. If somebody wants to, go for it. It's their right, but it's also their responibility to put up with everything that goes with it including the hassles from the public and law enforcement. Just my humble opinion on this.

Mel


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## clanger

oPEN cARRY. 

This should have been 5 pages by now.

There's a few groups of kook's that open carry, blog about it and getting rousted when kicked out of crowded places and off private property.....then lean on the 2A, 'self defence' etc. (like the other OP with the Friday's boycott thingy)

Those guys are Idiots.

Like CCW, open carry should be done with discretion.

Prancing into a shoe store full of customers with an 8" Model 29 on your hip is not cool. And the tool-holio's that do this are doing it for only one reason.

Attention.

They are not discreet with a burner or a small auto. 
Some of these clowns are parading around with 6" SA six-guns after notifying the cops of their intent and attracting all kinds of attnetion by showing up in force. WTF kind of defence are you going to put up with an unloaded '73 SAA? :anim_lol: And, after notifying the cops your are doing and getting an escort from them?

Again- idots.

Inner city cops see guns in stores or places of business and what do you think they think? Unless the carrier is clueless, which he probably is, he's usually up to no good.

Open Carry around my place will get you twisted up by the cops, bigtime. Or shot. Big time. 
Why? Cuz only thugs carry guns where I live. 
That was easy.

Also- don't expect the cops to know the law, cuz- guess what? They don't! *They react to situations, then, apply the law later once the cuffs are on. *

Open Carry is legit our area, don't make it the right thing to do though. At all. 
I open carry in the field. I do not do so anywhere else. Doing so in an inner-city environment that is not 100% pro-gun is a recipe for disaster.

There's no law against OC here. 
There's also no law against me walking around in my underwear. Don't make it the right thing to do, does it?

I see it this way: if you feel the need to defend it (your actions), have to have DOJ docs and tape recorders with you and some long speach preapred then you are obviously stirring the pot for your own agenda and probably doing something you should not- even is there is no law against it.

There's legit OC and then there's........... a lot of these interweb OC dorks that have way too much time on their hands and are simply looking to stir the pot for their 15 mins of fame.

I sincerely hope they get it, in the ER.

Reap what ya Sow.


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## kev74

So Open Carry might not be the best way to carry a gun. And some of the people that Open Carry may be attention whores. But if it is legal in their area, let them Open Carry.

I don't understand how in this political climate, a group of people who choose to participate in a forum dedicated to firearms and the defense of the second ammendment would suggest that anyone should not be able to carry a gun however they choose, so long as its being done legally. Weather or not this guy was looking for attention is irrelevant. He was abused by the police who (were ignorant of the law) for going about his business in a legal manor. 

So we ask, "Why should he open carry?" Someone else asks, "Why do you need two 17 round magazines and a backup gun on your ankle?' or "Why do you need an assault rifle?" The answer to these questions is, "Because its my right as an American and because I can." Any other answer - especially from a gun owner - is ammunition for the Bradys and the rest of the Gun Grabbers in their efforts to violate the Second Amendment.


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## zhurdan

kev74 said:


> I don't understand how in this political climate, a group of people who choose to participate in a forum dedicated to firearms and the defense of the second ammendment would suggest that anyone should not be able to carry a gun however they choose, so long as its being done legally.


I'm pretty sure they're just using their First Amendment rights. Again, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. It makes you a target, not just for the Brady gun grabbers, but for literal, gangbanger gun grabbers. Unless of course he has eyes in the back of his head.


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## TOF

kev74 said:


> So Open Carry might not be the best way to carry a gun. And some of the people that Open Carry may be attention whores. But if it is legal in their area, let them Open Carry.
> 
> I don't understand how in this political climate, a group of people who choose to participate in a forum dedicated to firearms and the defense of the second ammendment would suggest that anyone should not be able to carry a gun however they choose, so long as its being done legally. Weather or not this guy was looking for attention is irrelevant. He was abused by the police who (were ignorant of the law) for going about his business in a legal manor.
> 
> So we ask, "Why should he open carry?" Someone else asks, "Why do you need two 17 round magazines and a backup gun on your ankle?' or "Why do you need an assault rifle?" The answer to these questions is, "Because its my right as an American and because I can." Any other answer - especially from a gun owner - is ammunition for the Bradys and the rest of the Gun Grabbers in their efforts to violate the Second Amendment.


Toto agrees with Kev74 on this issue. It is legal to set on my porch and watch the sun set. It is also legal to openly carry a gun while walking down the street. Neither of those actions should result in my being hasseled by the police. I can do that in Arizona without being hasseled and all the residents are not dead yet. Even those from Ohio.

Salty Dog wouldn't like it if he were hasseled for walking down the street without a visible gun so why does he think it is ok that the OP was hasseled with a "LEGAL" one at his side. Is there realy that much difficulty in understanding Legal action vs. Illegal action.


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## zhurdan

TOF said:


> Toto agrees with Kev74 on this issue. It is legal to set on my porch and watch the sun set. It is also legal to openly carry a gun while walking down the street. Neither of those actions should result in my being hasseled by the police. I can do that in Arizona without being hasseled and all the residents are not dead yet. Even those from Ohio.
> 
> Salty Dog wouldn't like it if he were hasseled for walking down the street without a visible gun so why does he think it is ok that the OP was hasseled with a "LEGAL" one at his side. *Is there realy that much difficulty in understanding Legal action vs. Illegal action*.


Absolutelly not, but the level of scrutiny is much higher for those who open carry. A cop can stop and talk to anyone they please. I'd be willing to bet there's a greater chance they'll stop to the guy who's open carrying than the guy who is concealed carrying(considering they wouldn't know he was carrying). They see the gun, they want to check that persons intensions. It SHOULDN'T be that way, but we don't live in a perfect society. If those same police didn't stop and talk to the person open carrying and he proceeded to walk down the street and shoot up a school, what then? (yes I realize we can "what if" this to death) It's just that open carry adds a level of scrutiny to the person carrying it openly. If they are willing to deal with that, so be it. They just shouldn't try to make a federal case out of it for their own personal jollies.


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## TOF

zhurdan said:


> Absolutelly not, but the level of scrutiny is much higher for those who open carry. A cop can stop and talk to anyone they please. I'd be willing to bet there's a greater chance they'll stop to the guy who's open carrying than the guy who is concealed carrying(considering they wouldn't know he was carrying). They see the gun, they want to check that persons intensions. It SHOULDN'T be that way, but we don't live in a perfect society. If those same police didn't stop and talk to the person open carrying and he proceeded to walk down the street and shoot up a school, what then? (yes I realize we can "what if" this to death) It's just that open carry adds a level of scrutiny to the person carrying it openly. If they are willing to deal with that, so be it. They just shouldn't try to make a federal case out of it for their own personal jollies.


Zhur,
What I have seen through the years tells me the person walking down the street with no weapon showing is much more likely to shoot up a school than one with a weapon clearly visible. If it is clearly visible, School officials and others will, if observant, have a measure of warning when he/she heads for the entry.

It is a false sense of security to fear what you can see but not what you cant see. What you can't see can be far worse.

We are attempting to get a bill passed in Arizona that allows "Constitutional Carry". In essense you can carry when and how you choose except for schools, federal bldgs. etc. If you commit a crime with your weapon you are then a criminal and prohibited from legal ownership among other things. Those of us that find a path through life free of stealing from or injuring others are free to protect ourselves, or not, from those that do. We will not be considered criminals for doing so either.


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## tekhead1219

TOF said:


> We are attempting to get a bill passed in Arizona that allows "Constitutional Carry". In essense you can carry when and how you choose except for schools, federal bldgs. etc.


Man!!, I might have to move to Arizona. :smt023 Start looking for some ocean front property for me would you TOF?:anim_lol:


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## zhurdan

TOF said:


> Zhur,
> What I have seen through the years tells me the person walking down the street with no weapon showing is much more likely to shoot up a school than one with a weapon clearly visible. If it is clearly visible, School officials and others will, if observant, have a measure of warning when he/she heads for the entry.
> 
> It is a false sense of security to fear what you can see but not what you cant see. What you can't see can be far worse.
> 
> We are attempting to get a bill passed in Arizona that allows "Constitutional Carry". In essense you can carry when and how you choose except for schools, federal bldgs. etc. If you commit a crime with your weapon you are then a criminal and prohibited from legal ownership among other things. Those of us that find a path through life free of stealing from or injuring others are free to protect ourselves, or not, from those that do. We will not be considered criminals for doing so either.


I don't want to argue with you TOF because I know what you are getting at and people should fight for their rights. On that we agree 100%. I just think that the pesky young fellow in the original post was open carrying for no other purpose than to cause a ruckus.

Police officers stop people for the obvious, not the innocuous. I agree with you that what you can't see is to be feared more... that's exactly the notion I want bad guys to have. They don't know who's carrying if they're all concealed. It might make bad guys think twice if *all* law abiding citizens were allowed to carry concealed. It'd just make bad guys go somewhere else if people are carrying openly, just pushing the problem onto others.

I think the problem arises when people think that you can't have one without the other. I'd be right with those that want to fight for the right to concealed carry for all law abiding citizens long before I'd volunteer my time or effort for those that want to fight for the right of open carry. That being said, we're all gun owners, it all matters... it's just a matter of perspective I guess. We have CC here, and open carry so, if I were to get involved in the political side of things, I'd be fighting a battle already won. The reason I have stated that CC is better is because it's out of sight, out of mind. Once it's legal, the opposition wouldn't see guns everywhere(concealed carry), and they'd quite possibly just forget about it, whereas if they lost and then start seeing guns on every other dude at the Wal-Mart(open carry), they might fight back harder to get the law changed back. Squeeky wheel thing, you know.


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## TOF

tekhead1219 said:


> Man!!, I might have to move to Arizona. :smt023 Start looking for some ocean front property for me would you TOF?:anim_lol:


Hey techhead, I don't have a strong enough lever to work over the San Andreas fault with or I would generate some for you.

I know we all have our own opinions and accept that. Part of my opinion on this subject is, if more guns were seen on a routine basis the sheeple would get used to it and quit calling the police on their law abiding neighbors. If the police don't confront there would not be an opportunity for an activist to generate audio/video for you tube etc.

It is the old story, which came first the chicken or the egg. ie. Cop talk/Activist talk

Stay safe

tumbleweed


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## zhurdan

> don't want to argue with you TOF


I re read my post just now and I meant that as "I don't think we need to argue" because we're all on the same side. It just didn't sound right the last time I read it. My apologies if it was taken in any other way.

Zhur


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## TOF

zhurdan said:


> I re read my post just now and I meant that as "I don't think we need to argue" because we're all on the same side. It just didn't sound right the last time I read it. My apologies if it was taken in any other way.
> 
> Zhur


I had no problem with what you said zhurdan. My opinion may differ a bit but that is almost guaranteed no matter who is talking.

I think saltydog was having a 3rd or 4th salty dog when he posted though.

I can be a bit salty at times also. It must be a leftover from my Navy days.

Stay safe and enjoy life.

tumbleweed


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## kmj1966

kg333 said:


> "That was a rather preachy fellow who should learn when to shut up,"
> 
> Really, he HE should learn to shut up? Are you nuckin futz? Perhaps your a former leo. All officers who held this young patriot on his knees at 5 gunpoints received negative connotations in their jackets, the city apologized to Adam " the preachy fellow" and was almost sued or 2 million dolars, this " Preachy Fellow" opted simply for an apology and that all officers on the force be made aware of the open carry statute. His level of pacification to law enforcement officers taking the lords name in vain, cursing him calling him demeaning and offensive names is impressive. Do you even know why we have a second amendment, it was not just for protection of life and property, it was also to protect us from tyrannical government. You sir may want to learn to shut up for clearly you have not taken the time to read our constitution. We need more people to do what this young man did, open carry in places where you will be harassed like I do, when I am confronted by a police officer about why I am carrying open I simply say for the same reason you are sir, I am legally entitled to I have broken no laws I have no wants or warrants against me and I have not done anything wrong. Unlike some states my state requires I show identification if asked by a peace officer so I do, since I began open carrying in a metropolitan city a dozen years ago now I see people everywhere, police have had their lives saved by armed citizens in my state. I am offended at your comments about this young man he was well educated unlike the police he used polite language, unlike the police, he knew the law unlike the police. Sometimes a badge makes one braver than he really is!


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