# How long should I leave a magazine loaded?



## Gruesome (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm not sure this is a 1911-specific questions - it might belong in general semi-auto - but since the weapon under discussion is a 1911 I figured this was close enough.

I recently bought a Ruger SR1911 full size. I freakin' love it. In trying to find a comfortable middle ground between having a loaded weapon ready to go and keeping my home safe for my 9-year old, I have decided on this: I keep the 1911, empty, in the easiest to reach part of the locked gun cabinet with a loaded mag next to it. There are pros and cons to this method I'm sure but that's where I am right now.

So my question is: how long should I let that magazine sit with 8 rounds in it before I start to worry about spring fatigue or some other issue? I've got no semi-auto experience so the finer points of the care and feeding of this beastie is new to me. 

Thanks,
Gruesome


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## BigCityChief (Jan 2, 2013)

I have left 1911 (and other) mags loaded for over 4 years with NO ill effects.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Springs do not deteriorate from being left fully compressed, just as they do not deteriorate from being left fully extended.
Springs deteriorate only from being repeatedly flexed (that is, loaded and then unloaded) because repeated flexing eventually causes metal fatigue.

If you (or anyone else) feel bothered by the possibility of eventual spring failure, I suggest buying a couple of spares.
Better than spare springs would be spare magazines, since a magazine's feed lips are also springs, also flex from use, and also fail eventually from having been repeatedly flexed.

I own two full-size 1911s and a "shortie," and I have a complete arsenal of spare, unused, G.I. magazines waiting until one fails...or I die, whichever comes first.
Each pistol has its own set of seven magazines, which were used in a daily rotation.
So far, after more than 35 years of competitive 1911 shooting, I have had to replace three magazines.


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## Donn (Jul 26, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Springs do not deteriorate from being left fully compressed, just as they do not deteriorate from being left fully extended.
> Springs deteriorate only from being repeatedly flexed (that is, loaded and then unloaded) because repeated flexing eventually causes metal fatigue.


What Steve said. You might consider upgrading to Wilson Combat mags. If you have a 1911 for very long, you will sooner or later.


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## Gruesome (Apr 30, 2013)

Sweet - thanks guys. I had a feeling I was manufacturing things to worry about and I was right. Now I'll go back to worrying about these extra pieces left over from reassembling the gun. They are like cars, right? Lots of extra bits and pieces that aren't really necessary, right?



-Gruesome


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## acepilot (Dec 16, 2012)

Gruesome said:


> Sweet - thanks guys. I had a feeling I was manufacturing things to worry about and I was right. Now I'll go back to worrying about these extra pieces left over from reassembling the gun. They are like cars, right? Lots of extra bits and pieces that aren't really necessary, right?
> 
> 
> 
> -Gruesome


Correct. That's how you get a start on having spare parts around the shop. You never know when you'll need a spare hammer or firing pin, etc. :smt082


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

acepilot said:


> Correct. That's how you get a start on having spare parts around the shop. You never know when you'll need a spare hammer or firing pin, etc. :smt082


That's awesome!
I thought it was just me who kept ending up with spare triggers, and firing pins after cleanings!!!!
Now that I think of it... there are a couple spare bake parts from my wife's car that I worked on yesterday! At least when something breaks I'll have spare parts to fix it!!!


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

...And then there was the time that my father showed me how to clean our cuckoo clock.

When he was done, there were a few small parts left over, but he wound up the chain weights, and started the pendulum swinging anyway.

In a few minutes, the clock's hands reached three o'clock.
The mechanism whirred. The little door opened. The cuckoo came out.
"What the heck time is it, kid?" the cuckoo asked me.


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## smitty901 (Sep 13, 2013)

All your life it makes no difference . The urban myth about spring failure has been around a life time and is still nothing but a myth


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## malonezn1972 (Jun 30, 2013)

While I cannot definitively say that leaving springs fully compressed weakens them, I CAN tell you that as part of one of my former jobs for a major manufacturer, I was responsible for conducting daily quality audits, using numerous torque wrenches. And I CAN tell you that the manufacturers of those torque wrenches recommended storing them with the tension set to lowest setting to prevent the springs from losing tension, resulting in inaccurate torque readings. Therefore, I personally continue this practice with the torque wrenches in my tool box, AND with the magazines for my semi-auto pistols. (Just my opinion.)


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

smitty901 said:


> All your life it makes no difference . The urban myth about spring failure has been around a life time and is still nothing but a myth


This ^


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## malonezn1972 (Jun 30, 2013)

Again, the manufacturers of those torque wrenches did not consider it an urban myth. I would assume that this was based on reliability testing, not pulled out of mid-air. While I cannot say definitively if that translates to pistol magazines, to say that the issue of spring failure in general is an urban myth is, in my opinion, simply incorrect.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I believe that, in the case of torque wrenches, the manufacturer may be instructing the user to avoid _spring set_. This is very different from spring fatigue.

The first few times that a spring is fully compressed, held, and then released, it shortens by some small amount. In the case of semi-auto-pistol recoil springs, I've noticed a set of about 1/4" in about 5", or around 5%, after the first few strings of shots.

While this will not affect the function of a recoil spring, or even a magazine spring, it probably would have quite a bad effect upon the spring of a precision torque wrench mechanism.

It is my understanding that most spring manufacturers make some allowance for the small amount of spring set. I know for a fact that recoil-spring and magazine-spring makers allow for this small amount of set, when they wind their springs.
Perhaps the makers of the springs for torque wrenches cannot make this allowance, maybe because it would not permit the spring to fit the specified tolerances. Or maybe the wrench maker pre-sets the spring, making an allowance for set, but doesn't want to upset that balance. (I don't know about this at all: I'm just speculating.)

But I do have a small bit of engineering background, and I do know about springs in general.
And if you need a more-professional opinion, I suggest that you contact Wolff Springs.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

All this magazine talk is making me thirsty. Popcornsmilie


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

I've just finished reading a magazine.
I was shocked to find a fold-out picture of a naked woman inside it!
I don't know how much longer I can stay loaded.

I'll ask Jean what she recommends.


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## johnnyballs (Sep 12, 2013)

I recently purchased a Kimber Master Carry Ultra.
I had an issue with the feeding so I called the company.That issue was resolved but I also asked him about this topic of magazine spring wear.
He is of the idea it's not an issue at all.No solid statistics that I have found.Kind of like the Israeli carry or one in the chamber opinion.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

johnnyballs said:


> I recently purchased a Kimber Master Carry Ultra.
> I had an issue with the feeding so I called the company.That issue was resolved but I also asked him about this topic of magazine spring wear.
> He is of the idea it's not an issue at all.No solid statistics that I have found.Kind of like the Israeli carry or* one in the chamber opinion*.


I've heard of some carrying w/o one in the pipe.

That's just crazy and I don't have any idea as to what they are thinking. :buttkick:


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

Pistol Carry Method : +1 VS Israeli ... - YouTube


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

I always load full minus one in my carry and home defense guns. I have left magazines in this condition for years with no ill affects.


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## malonezn1972 (Jun 30, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> I always load full minus one in my carry and home defense guns. I have left magazines in this condition for years with no ill affects.


Sounds like excellent advice, and completely hassle-free. Install loaded magazine, feed one into the pipe, and simply do not replace the round in the magazine. Pretty much renders the whole spring fatigue/no spring fatigue debate null and void, as well.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

malonezn1972 said:


> ...Install loaded magazine, feed one into the pipe, and simply do not replace the round in the magazine. *Pretty much renders the whole spring fatigue/no spring fatigue debate null and void*, as well. [emphasis added]


Please explain how loading one round less "renders the...spring fatigue debate null and void."

(Maybe, before you begin your explanation, you might consult a gun-spring manufacturer, or even an engineering or metallurgy text.)


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

My reasons for doing this are several fold. But primarily because with some of my carry guns, that last round is hell to load.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> My reasons for doing this are several fold. But primarily because with some of my carry guns, that last round is hell to load.


Speed loaders work wonders for that last round.........


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Cait43 said:


> Speed loaders work wonders for that last round.........


They can and I have a few. But I am comfortable with what I do so I suppose I'll just continue doing it.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> I've just finished reading a magazine.
> I was shocked to find a fold-out picture of a naked woman inside it!
> I don't know how much longer I can stay loaded.
> 
> I'll ask Jean what she recommends.


OOOH if you're still loaded you surpassed the magic age :smt082

I'm not going into the torque wrench deal but I think Steve did a good job on it.

With guns,we aren't talking the valve springs in an engine that sit compressed for periods of time and cycle at 1000s of repetitions comparably,gun springs are cheaper.The downloading a round came from years ago of poor design and kind of became a wives tale.M16/AR mags put a lot of rounds in a certain space and when the spring was compressed at full capacity it pushed the elastic (or plastic) limits of the spring just beyond what it could handle.Load 28 in a 30rnd mag and all is fine,load 30 and in time it weakened it.An old M1 that was loaded with a CLIP did not behave the same way fully loaded,go figure.When the 1911 went to 8rnd mag conversions they weren't always reliable,go figure.It's engineering,you need a spring to do it's job in the space it's expected to,and pushing the diameter,coils and heat treating to the limit tends to fubar the whole deal.Wilson (and others later) stopped screwing with springs and followers in the 1911s and extended the tube below the frame a touch to keep things in perspective,and it works.

On recoil springs,they take an initial set and slowly weaken,the specific setup differs.In a 1911 Gov't or Commander size it's suggested 2500-3000rnds,but when the spring is about 1/2" shorter than new it's done.An HK USP recoil spring is good for 12K rounds,hmm.It comes down to engineering and what they want it to do.


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## malonezn1972 (Jun 30, 2013)

Rex, thanks for the explanation. Basically, if I understand you correctly there have been issues in the past, but with improvements in engineering / manufacturing it is not so much an issue anymore? Anyway, thanks for explaining your view on it instead of taking the "spring fatigue is an urban myth and anyone who thinks it is possible is a moron" approach. 

I was not saying that if you leave your mag/clip fully loaded you will suffer spring fatigue, just saying I thought there could be some truth to it is all. My only experience involving compression-type springs is the torque wrench recommendations. (I also did some laboratory testing on some tension springs used by the manufacturer I worked for, and they did weaken when left extended to their maximum limit, but this could have had more to do with the cheap springs we were importing from Mexico.)


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## malonezn1972 (Jun 30, 2013)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Please explain how loading one round less "renders the...spring fatigue debate null and void."
> 
> (Maybe, before you begin your explanation, you might consult a gun-spring manufacturer, or even an engineering or metallurgy text.)


Will there be a test?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

malonezn1972 said:


> Will there be a test?


Yes.
Passing grade is a C+.

If you prefer, you may submit a scholarly research paper of at least three pages length, plus footnotes and bibliography.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

malonezn1972 said:


> Rex, thanks for the explanation. Basically, if I understand you correctly there have been issues in the past, but with improvements in engineering / manufacturing it is not so much an issue anymore? Anyway, thanks for explaining your view on it instead of taking the "spring fatigue is an urban myth and anyone who thinks it is possible is a moron" approach.
> 
> I was not saying that if you leave your mag/clip fully loaded you will suffer spring fatigue, just saying I thought there could be some truth to it is all. My only experience involving compression-type springs is the torque wrench recommendations. (I also did some laboratory testing on some tension springs used by the manufacturer I worked for, and they did weaken when left extended to their maximum limit, but this could have had more to do with the cheap springs we were importing from Mexico.)


Well,it is and it isn't an issue still.things have just changed a little.

With the M16/AR,fully loaded would kill the spring so everyone did and still does download to 28 instead or 30.Whether there have been inprovements I don't know because I have a dozen older mags that haven't needed springs yet,so the newer mags and springs may have been redesigned.I read about someone I can't recall that makes AR mags and din redesign them so to speak,the tube length to cartridge holding space was optimized,I take it similar to the 1911s.

With the 1911s,Wilson began making mags and conversion kits to get 8rds in the factoru sized 7rd tube,sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.I never measured the spring's wire diameter but it appeared the same length as the original,and he modified the follower to go further down into the bottom.Now,the mags are a little longer and don't sit flush in the gun,so the spring isn't being pushed to it's elastic limit like previously.

As I said,it is and isn't true now.It is true that cycling is what kills a spring and it being left at a stage of compression doesn't hurt it,as long as it's in it's operating range and not pushed.

I always 0 my torque wrenches when done because I was taught to,I don't know if it's because the spring is going to take a set like a gun spring takes a slight initial set or what,but considering there's already a slight percentage of accuracy deviation from what you set it too,you surely don't want to increase it.Fortunately guns don't work in such tight parameters.


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## Yosh (Sep 4, 2013)

Sorry for my ignorance, lets say the spring weakens significantly as some said. What is going to happen? Is there any posibilty that the gun is going to Jam somehow or its just that the bullet wont reach the top and wont load as if the magazine is empty?


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

My experience with single-stack, M1911, .45 ACP magazines is that the magazine-body's feed lips fail long before the interior spring does.
A noticeable crack opens up, after which failure-to-feed, or partial-feed, jams occur.
I have several perfectly useful 1911 magazine springs and followers. They came from magazines, the feed-lips of which had cracked or broken.

I have seen the same thing happen with P.35 Hi-Power magazines, but I have not shot with them to the extent that I have M1911s.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Yosh said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, lets say the spring weakens significantly as some said. What is going to happen? Is there any posibilty that the gun is going to Jam somehow or its just that the bullet wont reach the top and wont load as if the magazine is empty?


Yes,it will jam when the spring weakens because the round comes up slower.2 things are possible.Normally you'll get a bolt over base jam where the bottom of the breechface passes over the rim and catches the case body trying to strip it from the mag.This is one of the problems in 3" 1911s because the slide speed can be high and they have a shorter cycling stroke.The other problem is that the extractor must control the case,and if it's tension on the case is low the next round in the mag helps support it until it hits the ejector.In theses cases you may also get an ejection jam first.An easy extractor test is pull the mag before a shot,if it ejects fine the extractor is doing it's job and not relying on help.

I haven't had as many mags crack as Steve,but I've had a few.I've resprung a few mags when I was shooting a lot,but it was more out of cheap piece of mind so I didn't get a jam in the middle of a match.I don't keep a log of how much goes through a gun so I couldn't say how much cycling it takes to wear one out,if it feels like it loads a little too easy and it's well used I'll replace it because they're cheap.


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## Garyshome (Nov 6, 2013)

That's what I wanted to know also.
Springs do not deteriorate from being left fully compressed, just as they do not deteriorate from being left fully extended.
Springs deteriorate only from being repeatedly flexed (that is, loaded and then unloaded) because repeated flexing eventually causes metal fatigue.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Garyshome said:


> ...Springs do not deteriorate from being left fully compressed, just as they do not deteriorate from being left fully extended.
> Springs deteriorate only from being repeatedly flexed (that is, loaded and then unloaded) because repeated flexing eventually causes metal fatigue.


Yup. Exactly.


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## Glock Doctor (Mar 14, 2011)

I think you'll like this: I have left 1911 magazines loaded for as long as 30 years! Know what? All of them worked when I took them out of storage and used them at the range. (The ammunition seemed a little weak, but no matter!) 

If you want to be positive that your 1911 magazines (or any PISTOL magazine) won't take a, 'set' all you've got to do is to download each magazine by exactly one cartridge. I use my EDC pistols, primarily, for self-defense; and all of my semi-autos are downloaded in this way. You might be interested to know that the only, 'jams' I've ever had with a Glock all came from either full magazine +1 carry, or occurred on the top round of a fully loaded magazine. 

Realistically, I know I don't really need 1 or 2 more rounds in a pistol; what I need in a semiautomatic is absolute reliability. Downloading my magazines is one of the things I do in order to guarantee reliability. (Carrying 2 or 3 extra magazines is another.) :smt002

Now, a final word on how you are presently storing your pistol and magazine: If you really want to protect your child from BOTH himself, and your gun then do NOT keep the gun and a loaded magazine together. Kids have a way of figuring out how to get into gun safes. What a child should never find when he opens a safe is both the gun, and the ammunition together. 

Is this important? Years ago the teenage son of one of my neighbors cleverly got into his father's gun safe. He found a loaded 1911, and began to play with it. What happened? He started goofing with another neighborhood teenager, and ended up by shooting the other kid straight through one of his eyes! (Forgot about that all important, 'other round' that's still in the pistol's chamber after the magazine has been removed!) 

The neighbor? He ended up being the defendant in a multimillion dollar lawsuit. (Which he lost!) The shooter? As far as I'm concerned, his life was also lost that day. Last time I heard anything about him he was serving time for both drug possession and auto theft, somewhere, in Missouri. The moral of this sad story? IF you've got either (1) children, (2) adolescents, (3) largely inexperienced, or (4) elderly people living at home with you: Do NOT store your guns, AND ammunition together - Period!


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## Bobv (Oct 31, 2013)

I always leave 1 rd out if I am not packing and the gun is at the house for defense purposes, I have a brother- law who has be a deputy sherriff for 30 years and he says it weakens the spring, but what steve says makes since to, I do know that lack of maintenace of a mag can cause failor. I think I will load one up and keep it loaded, anybody else?


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## oldman45 (Feb 17, 2014)

Personal opinion here from a guy that has more than a few 1911 and magazines.

My father brought his 1911 home from WWII. I grew up shooting it in the early 50's. He passed away in 1989 and I inherited the gun. About three years ago I took it to the range. It had the original magazine and it was loaded from the last time he shot it which may have been 10 yrs before his death. I ran it out and reloaded the magazine without a hitch. I have maybe 20 fully loaded magazines in my gun room and they all stay loaded until I shoot them which some is used often and some not so often. Never a problem.

Now for a question: A car has valve springs. They stay compressed tom some degree but they seldom fail. Magazine Springs are made of better materials than ever before and will take being compressed for more years than we will likely go without using them. The early concerns about spring failure is ancient history. Some of the LEO I have to put up with only empties their mags at the range during their once a year qualifiying and they do not have a problem.

Again, just my opinion based on years of experience and observations


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Speaking of mag springs, do any of you have any RamLine mags? 

I have several and the "spring" unwinds from the top and pulls up on the follower.......or something like that. 

It's been a few years since I last took a good look. Anyways, it quite a bit different than your traditional mag spring.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

Talk about a step back in time. I've never had a 10-22 but I remember them when they were dirt cheap. You're right, they were a flat spring coiled up to retract when the follower extended it. I can't say exactly how great they were but I have seen them last quite a while, but I can't say how many times they were cycled.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

rex said:


> Talk about a step back in time. I've never had a 10-22 but I remember them when they were dirt cheap. You're right, they were a flat spring coiled up to retract when the follower extended it. I can't say exactly how great they were but I have seen them last quite a while, but I can't say how many times they were cycled.


I actually have quite a few 17rd. RamLine mags for my 92FS's, and some for my 96FS. I have used them at the range and they always performed as expected.

At one time, they pretty much set the standard for "higher capacity" mags. The ones I have are all SS and most are still NIB.


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## djr46 (Apr 18, 2014)

I've kept mags loaded for years and haven't seen a related failure in my guns. Suspect springs don't fail under compression? 
That's my story and sticking to it....
DJ


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