# Safety or no safety....



## BlueGumyBear (Jan 8, 2009)

That is the question. For my first gun, I'm going to get either a Glock 9mm, or a S&W M&P 9mm. I've looked at both, held both, and read up on both numerous times. I'm almost set on the M&P and that's because it has a safety. 

I was in a gun store last month talking to the owner about the two guns, and I had said that I was more comfortable with one that had a safety. He then proceeds to tell me that basically I shouldn't get one with a safety. His reasoning being that if I need to use it to protect myself then I won't have time to turn the safety off (but that if I want it to be kept secure I should buy a keypad locked safe..)...so I'd have time to key-in a 7 digit number, but not enough time to flick a safety off. 

My thing is, I plan on practicing with the gun I get...alot, and I have no doubt that I'd be able to pull it out of the holster and have that safety off in one movement, but other people's doubts are starting to get to me. 

Feedback would be awesome...thanks for reading!


----------



## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

The safety wont make it any better unless it makes you more comfortable and you teach yourself to flip the safety without thinking. I truly believe that any weapon that is carried with a safety needs drilled with...A lot. In a high stress situation you will want to be able to flip that safety and not think about it while your doing it. Nothing is worse that (God forbid) you have to raise your weapon and it don't do anything because you forgot to click the safety. Both pistols you mentioned are good ones. Either would serve you well. I'd probably lean to the M&P mainly for the back strap being changeable. I'm sure the Glock fan club will tell you all the ways a Glock is better than sliced bread soon enough.

If you decide on the one with the safety just practice,practice,practice. Many people all over the world use pistols with safeties. I carry a 1911 left handed that does not have the ambi safety installed. I am very quick and have the gun up with the safety off and am ready to fire as fast as anyone can hope to be. But I drilled it over and over for a long time. I still practice it a lot. I have some with ambi- safeties also. I practice with all my carry guns almost daily. 

The best fit to your hand is the one to get. Remember..Everyone is going to have an opinion. but you are the one that is going to use this weapon. So you need to decide what is best...for you.


----------



## I'mStrapped (Nov 21, 2008)

Glocks have a triple safety. All three are dissengaged when you pull the trigger. If you have a good holster that fully covers the trigger guard, and there is no way for you to hit the trigger without removing it from the holster, then in my opinion it is just as safe as a gun with an external safety lever. In either case the real safty is your trigger finger. I carry different guns in differnet places, with and without safeties. I don't get hung up on wether the gun I have on has a saftey or not. I don't feel any more comfortable with an H&K with the safety on than I do with a glock with "no safety". Like you said if your gun has a safety then you just have to remeber to disengage it when you draw. And of course practice. If the safety makes you feel more comfortable then I would suggest you get the S&W. All that matters is what works for you. If possible you should shoot each and see which works best for you. :smt023


----------



## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

BlueGumyBear said:


> His reasoning being that if I need to use it to protect myself then I won't have time to turn the safety off (but that if I want it to be kept secure I should buy a keypad locked safe..)...so I'd have time to key-in a 7 digit number, but not enough time to flick a safety off.


Two different things here. One is keeping the gun properly secured when not being carried and one is what makes you feel comfortable when you have the gun with you. Guns belong in one of two places, in your control or in a locked environment. Leaving a loaded gun around and relying on the safety to deter unwanted use is a bad idea. Even if you live alone and think no one will get it, think break in or visitors accidentally getting the gun.

Go with the gun you feel comfortable with. I carry a Sig that has no external safety. I am comfortable with it and like the fact that all I'll have to do is pull the trigger if I need to and also if my wife needs to use the gun, since she doesn't have a lot of training, it's one less thing for her to need to know. However, there are many others here that carry guns that have safeties and do just fine. It all boils down to training. If you practice drawing and disengaging the safety and basically put that into muscle memory, then you're going to be fine. Just remember the forum's unofficial motto, "Keep your booger hook of the bang switch until you're ready to shoot."


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

I prefer guns with safetys that I use for HD. That way, at least have the option to go either way. A gun with a safety can always be on 'fire' if desired; a gun without a safety can never be put on 'safe.'


----------



## Redwolf (Nov 29, 2008)

Which M&P are you looking at, I have 3 and only the 45 has a safety. When I was younger I would have never had a auto without a safety but understand 1st, 2nd, 3rd gens and what we have today not to mention the holsters are a lot better today, any late model auto will not fire unless you pull the trigger. Keeping your finger off the trigger till your ready to fire is a must, practice and to start off practice with someone that knows and that you will take advice from. Thats to keep from getting bad habits. I keep the safety off and the chamber empty unless the weapon is on my side, the stories are out there. Good luck in your decision.


----------



## will (Jan 12, 2009)

If you were more comfortable with one that had a safety then that is the one you should get. First and foremost you need to be comfortable with the gun you have.

Will


----------



## Dsig1 (Dec 23, 2007)

Todd said:


> I carry a XD that has no external safety. I am comfortable with it and like the fact that all I'll have to do is pull the trigger if I need to and also if my wife needs to use the gun, since she doesn't have a lot of training, it's one less thing for her to need to know.


Actually the XD has the backstrap external safety which I think sets it apart from the Glock and M&P. If we look at the Plaxico Burris situation, he was reaching blindly for a gun that had slipped under his belt line. In doing so, he hit the trigger area and fired the gun. The XD makes sure that you grasp the gun front and back before it will fire.

I drill a lot in my bedroom, reaching for my gun after hearing a bump in the night. IMO reaching for the gun in a hurried condition is when one is most likely to make a mistake. The back strap safety of the XD helps to mitigate this type of error.


----------



## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

Spartan said:


> I prefer guns with safetys that I use for HD. That way, at least have the option to go either way. A gun with a safety can always be on 'fire' if desired; a gun without a safety can never be put on 'safe.'


The best safety in the world is your trigger finger. Keep it off of the trigger until you want it to go boom. Otherwise, it shouldn't even be in the trigger guard. Just my .02. :smt023


----------



## Willy D (Jun 5, 2008)

I just read recently that 19 out of 20 trained LEO will inadvertantly place their finger on the trigger in a stressful situation just out of the subconscious need of comfort knowing where it is..Also most of them when asked can't remember if they did or didn't place finger on the trigger. 

I have 2 XD's and I am not afraid of the gun going off while carrying or if it were to be knocked or fall to the ground...My worry is in a SD situation during the draw of the weapon..if it is of very high stress (it should be... thinking you are possibly going to be killed and you may very well kill this other person) and you were to get the gun part way out of the holster and it gets caught on something. Human nature (along with adrenaline) makes you grab tighter and with more force especially if you know this gun is going to mean you living or dying. Humans will usually grasp things tightly with their thumb and fingers (especially the index finger) when they are reaching for an object..Once the trigger guard clears the holster, the ergonomics of the gun make it a natural fit for that finger to go to the trigger. That is what makes me nervous in a SD situation with a very light SA trigger (like my XD)...

I know that the finger needs to stay out of there...I practice that way and handle it that way..So do trained LEO's...Only having that level of stress on you is when you truly know what you will do out of instinct and I don't know a way to duplicate that while practicing or drilling...

I am not a real fan of the thumb safety and having it on as it is one more thing to remember...My current carry is a smith 642 DAO revolver...I still practice and handle the gun with the finger out, but it would take a much longer and harder pull to shoot that versus my XD....I am in the process right now of buying a Walther P99C with the AS trigger just for these reasons...For ME it is a comfort thing and what is comfortable to me. That is most important to me...Carrying what I am comfortable with...

Willy


----------



## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

I was not aware that the M&P 9mm came with a manual safety now. If that is the case, good marketing move by Smith & Wesson. :smt023

If you feel more comfortable with a weapon with a manual safety, then that is what you should get. As someone else stated, you can choose to carry it with the safety off later if you are comfortable with it. DevilsJohnson made a very good point when he stated that should you choose to carry a pistol with a safety and the safety engaged, you need to practice a lot. I have personally seen people draw and try to fire because they were under stress and forgot to disengage the safety. I have seen a video of a man being shot because he forgot to disengage the safety. 

If you go with a Glock, your safety is your finger and a good holster, as someone else in this thread also mentioned.

I personally prefer to carry weapons without a manual safety, but I can certainly understand where you are coming from.


----------



## Teuthis (Apr 9, 2008)

Even highly trained, highly drilled specialists can make mistakes and grip a trigger when they should not. How much more then can the average, armed citizen do so? Under the stress of combat, which most people have never felt, even the best training can be strained. 

I recommend manual safeties for semi-auto pistols in the hands of armed citizens. You are not giving up anything that you need in having a manual safety on your pistol. You are, however, increasing your margin of safety immensely. Unless your pistol is truly double action only, you are best served overall with a manual safety on it.


----------



## nky1129 (Nov 3, 2008)

I own a Glock 19. The manual safety issue was a concern with me at the time I purchased it as well. I decided, as has been mentioned several times in this thread, that the best safety is your trigger finger, and that comfortability with your handgun and confidence in your ability to use it are the most important issue. I'm not completely comfortable with my Glock yet, but I'm getting there. I hit the range once a week and practice drawing from my IWB holster (with the gun unloaded) regularly. Once drawing and handling properly become second-nature to me, I'll go for my CCW.

It's all about comfort. I'm not a Glock fanatic (though it's difficult not to be once you own one). I just feel that it was the right choice for me. Whatever you decide to purchase, just make sure it fits your hand, your needs and your expectations. 

Just my $.02.


----------



## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

Spartan said:


> I prefer guns with safetys that I use for HD. That way, at least have the option to go either way. A gun with a safety can always be on 'fire' if desired; a gun without a safety can never be put on 'safe.'





tekhead1219 said:


> The best safety in the world is your trigger finger. Keep it off of the trigger until you want it to go boom. Otherwise, it shouldn't even be in the trigger guard. Just my .02. :smt023


Of course, I just don't see what the issue is in having the option. I prefer having the extra measure. Both my nightstand guns have safeties. I am a pretty groggy person when woken up at 2:00am. I own a Glock (was two, sold one), owned an XD, and own a Steyr M40, none of which come with safeties. The ones I sleep next to, have safeties.

You're never going to convince me that they are not a commodity on a firearm or 90% of HK's, Berettas, 1911's, and all AR's wouldn't come with them. To each their own, I like having them personally on my guns that aren't in the safe all the time.


----------



## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

If you like and want the safety then you should get it. Whether or not it is important or if you really need it or not only you can decide. As your first handgun, and most likely the only one you "initially" will become very familiar with, it's operation characteristics should quickly become second nature. Can you walk and talk at the same time? If yes, your good to go and if not we should maybe consider some other options. Seriously though, muscle memory developed during range time will ensure you get the expected result you want of a round sent down range in short order.

In my opinion it is when you branch out in your collection and start introducing different weapons platforms into your range sessions and possible defense rolls that things become a bit more complicated. Not unmanagable, in my opinion, just more complex. A good arguement can be made that no manual safety is the fastest, simplest and thus less to go wrong. I would tend to agree. But I also think that reasonable training time coupled with dedication to the platform of your choice, regardless of what that choice is, can be just as effective. If that safety will make you completely satisfied wit your choice and the one without will leave you with doubts then get the safety. It's not that big a deal.


----------



## BlueGumyBear (Jan 8, 2009)

Thank you everyone so much for your input, I really appreciate it very much!


----------



## Scratchshooter40 (Jun 17, 2008)

*External Safety . . . .*

I think you should shoot and handle as many different handguns as you can, renting them at the local range. I carry a Beretta 96 for CCW and as a reserve deputy with the S.O. I carry the Beretta with the safety/decocker in the off position. As stated many time, the most efficient safety is keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Having originally trained on 1911's in the USMC carried for the most part with a full mag and nothing in the chamber, not the most efficient way, by far, then transitioning to law enforcement and carrying a cocked and locked Hi-Power to todays semi-autos, I have settled on the Beretta as it fits me and naturally points just like pointing my finger. Grip feels perfect and I really like the LaserMax LMS-1441 guide rod laser sight. It is still functional with the Gem-Tech Suppressor as well. I traded my AA supressor as the quick detach lug on the bottom side blocked the laser. The screw on is great and with the thread protector the muzzle looks like a .50 cal to the uninitiated. Shoot as many different weapons as you are able and choose the one that works best for you.


----------



## Redwolf (Nov 29, 2008)

Ok I did find the M&P 9 and 9C with a safety

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...d=10001&productId=88453&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...d=10001&productId=88459&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

I haven't seen any till now.


----------



## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

I found a press release from about a month ago regarding the option of a safety on the 9mm, .40S&W, and .357SIG models. I think this is a very smart move by S&W. I have heard so many people say that they would like to see Glock make that an option. Since it is not a decocker, one could simply choose to carry the gun with the safety off or engage it if warranted. Choices are nice. :smt023 to Smith & Wesson.


----------



## BlueGumyBear (Jan 8, 2009)

Redwolf said:


> Ok I did find the M&P 9 and 9C with a safety
> 
> http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...d=10001&productId=88453&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y
> 
> ...


See..I'm not nuts...a little crazy, but not nuts


----------



## hipmatt (Mar 11, 2007)

I have the M&P but with a mag safety only. I prefer my gun this way. I don't want to worry about a safety in the event I need to use my gun. Anyways go with the M&P. It is a great gun.


----------



## topdog9000 (Apr 7, 2009)

Just purchased a new SW990L and much like a glock it has a partially cocked striker and no safety or decocker. However it is essentially a DAO pistol and would be unlikely to have an accidental misfire while holstered. I really like this new purchase and I know the M&P's are just as good. Go for it


----------



## clanger (Jan 27, 2009)

If you get one with a manual safety (or decocker), take some classes on defensive shooting. 

They will teach you propper presentation of a firearm. 

In the 'ready position', the safety is on, upon presentation you cross an imaginary line where the safety comes off (single action). And- comes back on again when going from presented back to ready as the 'line' is crossed again (SA/decocker). 

I automatically thumb the safety off as soon as I start to present, be it from the ready position or holstered going through the ready position. 

Anytime I'm in the ready position the safety is on (or decocked). Any extension from there means safety gets clicked off and you are assessing/firing on a threat. It becomes automatic after a while. 

I very much prefer a clean breaking single-action pistol over a DA or DAO. 
The thumb-saftey on some 1911-type's is so natural it's neat-o. 

DA/DAO requires less fiddling w/ a longer trigger pull. Grab and shoot. 

I like being cocked-n-locked. :smt1099


----------



## Pistolero (Mar 6, 2009)

There is also the safety of knowing that if the weapon was stripped from you there's a chance the criminal type who has it in his hand can't quickly turn it on you, work the safety properly and fire. Some LEO's also use weapons that won't fire without the magazine seated so, if in a struggle for control of the weapon, they can hit the mag release and the gun won't fire.

Personally, I carry a gun that has no external safety (decock model) and that is what makes me feel safe. If I have to shoot, I want it to function quickly with as little fuss as possible. Get the gun you like most and practice, practice, practice. Both are exceptional and will serve you well.


----------



## ZO6Vettever (Mar 30, 2009)

I don't want a manual safety, a DAO semi-auto should have a heavy enough trigger to prevent an AD and a holster with the trigger covered is a must.


----------



## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting discussion.. VERY.

Here's a question for the experienced carry fellows.. 
I assumed, when in carry, during a SD occurrence, that the only time typically that the weapon has been drawn is AFTER the point of deciding that it will be used.. if possible. 

In other words, if I were to draw the weapon, I would have already made the decision to draw, aim, fire in defense. (typically).. 

... Is this the correct tactical mind-set to have? 
Given of course every scenario is different in which case in a split second you might find yourself able to avoid final trigger pull.

If the answer is YES, meaning draw = decision to use DDF, then the holster itself is a primary safety (trigger guard, etc) and the brain is the 1st primary safety. That makes the gun's mechanical safeties there mainly to prevent discharge while holstering. A good argument for the 1911 mode of carry (hammer back, safety on), where the grip safety, thumb safety, and trigger guard are the mech. discharge safeties.

... Asking humbly as I'm looking to learn something here.. Is that all gunk or proper defensive carry logic?


----------



## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

Someone suggested that LEO's typically fail to keep their finger off the trigger in stressful situations, and while I have no way of knowing if this is correct, I think it is not really relevant to me, because of the differences in the circumstances that LEO's face, compared to what I am likely to face, as an armed civilian.

When a policeman draws his weapon, more often than not, he is in an offensive posture, has probably identified himself, and is going to attempt to talk the bad guy into surrender. So, he is brandishing his weapon and using it as a threat to make the 'suspect' submit to the authority of the law. The suspect is likely to be in a defensive posture, preferring escape, over violence. The typical LEO will probably draw his weapon many times, over the course of his career, but will rarely fire it.

An armed citizen, on the other hand, is the prey. He will not draw a gun unless a predator has chosen him for his victim, so the likelihood is that he will just be lucky if he even has time to draw, much less make a speech. If he draws his gun, he is going to fire it at the perpetrator, unless the perpetrator submits or retreats very quickly. Brandishing the weapon is not smart in such a situation, even if there is time for that, and in fact, is probably even illegal.

For this reason, I prefer a gun for carry that does not have a 'flip' safety. Under controlled conditions, I will never point a gun at anyone, nor will my finger be inside the trigger guard, until my sights are in the vicinity of the target. This is the way I train, and the way I intend to execute, in any situation. 

Whether or not I can perform as planned is, of course, not known, but my belief is that if ever attacked and forced to defend myself, I will probably have to fire my weapon, so I will be better served by something very simple and fast.


----------



## gnet158 (Feb 5, 2009)

Here's my .02

I love the way my XD-40 will not fire unless the pin is held down on the back of the grip. The shop owner and I are of the same opinion, when you pull your gun you don't want to think twice about the safety. 

My Sig P229 don't have any safety and that's ok, but again I love the XD-40 safety.


----------



## babs (Nov 30, 2007)

gnet158 said:


> My Sig P229 don't have any safety and that's ok, but again I love the XD-40 safety.


Std Sig hammer DA/SA action.. On the first shot, treat it pretty much like a revolver (once chambered and decocked).. Pull trigger, it goes bang (Sig's go bang every time). Nice SA trigger after that until empty or decocked.


----------



## gnet158 (Feb 5, 2009)

babs said:


> Std Sig hammer DA/SA action.. On the first shot, treat it pretty much like a revolver (once chambered and decocked).. Pull trigger, it goes bang (Sig's go bang every time). Nice SA trigger after that until empty or decocked.


True, but when I (and most people) think safeties, I think about a button next to the trigger.


----------



## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

I'mStrapped said:


> Glocks have a triple safety. All three are dissengaged when you pull the trigger. If you have a good holster that fully covers the trigger guard, and there is no way for you to hit the trigger without removing it from the holster, then in my opinion it is just as safe as a gun with an external safety lever. In either case the real safty is your trigger finger. I carry different guns in differnet places, with and without safeties. I don't get hung up on wether the gun I have on has a saftey or not. I don't feel any more comfortable with an H&K with the safety on than I do with a glock with "no safety". Like you said if your gun has a safety then you just have to remeber to disengage it when you draw. And of course practice. If the safety makes you feel more comfortable then I would suggest you get the S&W. All that matters is what works for you. If possible you should shoot each and see which works best for you. :smt023


I'm sorry but the only safety in a Glock is to not put your finger inside the trigger guard. I know how their built I know what they say but you place your finger inside the trigger guard it's live. IO can say my Sigs have a safety if I leave the hammer down so they only fire DA then. But when one thinks of a safety they think of a button or lever outside of the trigger guard.

I'm not putting Glock down. They are great weapons. It's just reality. The weapon was designed and built for whenever the shooter places their finger on the trigger they will go bang. The rest are measures taken for if the weapon is dropped or the like in that case they will not go bang. I know it's only an opinion but the term "safe action" does not really imply they have a safety. The only way to ensure the weapon will not fire is to not get your booger hook inside the trigger guard...period.


----------

