# Target vs. Defense trigger control?



## RightTurnClyde (Oct 24, 2007)

So I've been shooting my new (first) pistol for a couple months now and have made some good progress thanks to all the tips from you guys here. Everyone says that a slooooow squeeze and applying the X + .01 pounds of pressure to pull the trigger is the correct way to shoot and that all makes sense in terms of slow-fire target shooting. BUT, what about a life/death situation where the adrenaline is pumping and the first guy to shoot and get a good hit is going to walk away?

Wouldn't you point that gun PDQ and yank on that trigger over and over (with a certain degree of control of course) until the other guy is on the ground? When you double-tap you're not really squeeeeezing the trigger are you? I understand that training your body and muscle memory comes in big here, but I'd appreciate an explanation of slow-fire target trigger control vs. :smt166 life/death trigger control.

Thanks!


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

RightTurnClyde: Sir; that question. WOW. 
Any answer will be dictated by the 'action'. You are in bed, at mall, walking, yard, work, driving. The picture. When ever giving the opportunity; proper trigger control "wins". 
Practicing the "quick draw' and shoot is viable practice. My only concern; exciteability in conflict. "spray and pray" 
We all have the ability to train at our determined levels. Confusing? Should be. We all need to train and practice at levels above anything we ever hoped to accomplish. Doing so promotes; good practice "thinking", while learning to shoot. 
Give consideration to this. My ego doesn't allow but very few [that I've watched or been around] that 'I' would be comfortable; while laying down some cover fire. They are supposed to take out, while 'I' take the heat. Now remember "my ego". These shooters practice and practice wisely with good recognition of potential situations. Bull.  They practice to get better; thereby; create good positive reinforcement of the PRACTICE.
Sir; without doubt your question is a thinking question. Without doubt practice your second shot; practice getting the 'arm' into position as quickly as good safe and responsibility dictates. Above ALL. Practice with good positive reinforcement of said rules.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

My best answer...

1) Practice slow, to shoot precisely. 
2) Then pick up the pace... One round per second, good mechanics, all in the black.
3) Turn it up a notch... "Slow" doubles. Pop-pop, pause, pop-pop. Good mechanics, maintain finger contact w/ trigger, no slapping.
4) One more notch... Fast doubles (double taps). Don't lower the gun, just lift, get a sight picture, tap-tap. Focus on feeling the recoil, controling the jump, returning the sight picture, tap-tap.

Lastly... practice at REALISTIC ranges of 3-7M. If anyone rags on you at the range for shooting at 3-5 yards, ask them if they've ever been to Gunsight or another combat training course. If you're training to defend yourself at inside-your-bedroom distances, pace it off. My bedroom is huge, and its 12ft from my nightstand to my bedroom door. There's not a single 7M shot in my house, unless I'm shooting from the wall of one room to the wall of another. Not realistic. How far is it across the hood of your car to the next car? That's a real distance. How far is it from the ATM to the corner of the building? How far is it from the 2nd isle of the convenience store to the counter? How far is it from the mouth of the alley, to the curb?

Exactly. Why are we practicing defensive shooting at 10M? 15M? 

Good mechanics should be good mechanics at any speed. If you crush the trigger with your second "tap", it won't be next to the first one. If you "yank" the trigger on the second tap, it'll fly the other way. Familiarity with thousands of reps. Thousands of rounds...

When the chips are down, and there is a BG in front of you, who knows what you'll do. I doubt there's anyone on this forum who's had the misfortune of having to kill a man. But we can only hope to be prepared. And we can only prepare through practice.

Jeff


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

The fundamentals of shooting do not change just because someone is trying to hurt you, and yanking on the trigger will produce the same misses on the street as it does on the range.

What most trained people use in fast shooting is the "compressed surprise trigger break." This is essentially a very fast trigger press, but still without the knowledge of a definite point in time when the gun will fire. The trigger break must still surprise you. It just surprises you _within_ a very short period of time (perhaps .10 second or less). It is used with regularity in both defensive and practical shooting, though some super-advanced shooters like Rob Leatham use a different technique.

There are really at least two different types of pairs that are sort of lumped under "double tap." There is the controlled pair (two sight pictures, two shots) and the hammer (one sight picture, two shots). Since "double tap" doesn't differentiate between the two, I dislike using it. But either technique requires a good trigger break, and the way for us mere mortals to achieve that is by use of the compressed surprise trigger break.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

Try to find a range that holds open IDPA or IPSC or other style matches in your area if possible. Preferably a smaller friendly type operation without an over abundance of professionals. Go and observe one or two and if it looks interesting to you see if you can join them. There will be a number of quite knowledgable individuals at such a match and most are willing to help a newcomer. It can be a lot of fun and , although gamesmanship is involved, will provide a lot of usefull experience.

The main thing is keep shooting. It will eventualy come together for you.

Plus Enjoy what you do. :mrgreen:

:smt1099


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## RightTurnClyde (Oct 24, 2007)

*Thanks*

Great answers guys. Thanks much. :smt023


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## firemediceric (Oct 26, 2007)

In a Power Point presentation I just made for a class assignment I chose a topic of Combat Vs. Recreational Shooting.

I focused on the 5 points that read should be practiced each time:
1. Power Stance
2. High Hold
3. Crush Grip
4. Front Sight
5. Smooth Trigger Roll

I practice these 5 items with each shot I take, remembering that in a combat situation with adrenaline pumping, these practices may serve me well.

If anyone want s the short Power Point I put together on this, just PM me your e-mail. I can also send you the other presentation I put together if you like; The Benefits of a Schutzhund Trained Dog


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I find the "crush grip" makes a "smooth trigger roll" much more difficult, and oftens leads to mashing the trigger. I use more moderate grip pressure*.

What's a "power stance?" I've not heard this term before. 



* I am well aware of the argument that under stress I will supposedly want to crush the gun like an empty beer can, but I don't accept that argument for various reasons not germane to this thread.


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## RightTurnClyde (Oct 24, 2007)

firemediceric said:


> In a Power Point presentation I just made for a class assignment I chose a topic of Combat Vs. Recreational Shooting.
> 
> I focused on the 5 points that read should be practiced each time:
> 1. Power Stance
> ...


I'm pretty sure you got those 5 points from an article by Mas Ayoob. I read it too. :smt033


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

RightTurnClyde said:


> I'm pretty sure you got those 5 points from an article by Mas Ayoob. I read it too. :smt033


Ah, so Mas renamed his "strong isosceles"/"StressFire" stance again. Now I understand. :mrgreen:


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## firemediceric (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes, those 5 points are straight from Mas Ayoob. I didn't site his name yesterday only because I was hurried and didn't want to spell his name incorrectly.

Mas brings out that in a combat situation with adrenalin pumping, no matter how much you have practiced a moderate grip in a controled setting, the sympathetic nervous system will take over and a crush grip will become much more natural. The crush grip is also cited as helping to manage recoil in this type of situation and prevents the gun from somehow being wrenched from your hand. But Mike, you have a lot more experience than I do in this regard, so I would be interested to know your reasons for feeling differently.


The Power Stance or Fighting Stance is where you slightly modify one of the more common stances. Whether it be Weaver, Isoscles, Chapman, etc. The modification comes by taking on leg (for a right handed shooter it would be the right let) place that leg slightly behind you with the knee slightly bent. Straighten the leg, driving the heel or the ball of the foot into the ground. This back leg is now straight and somewhat rigid. The front leg is slightly bent. The head is dropped slightly and the shoulder hunched around the head, something that happens naturally anyway when threatened. The end product looks like a martial arts stance.

If you want to PM me an e-mail address I'll send you the power point which may explain it better and has pictures to demonstrate. If someone with more computer smarts than myself wants to post the power point, I have no problem with that.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

firemediceric said:


> Mas brings out that in a combat situation with adrenalin pumping, no matter how much you have practiced a moderate grip in a controled setting, the sympathetic nervous system will take over and a crush grip will become much more natural. The crush grip is also cited as helping to manage recoil in this type of situation and prevents the gun from somehow being wrenched from your hand. But Mike, you have a lot more experience than I do in this regard, so I would be interested to know your reasons for feeling differently.


I'm a graduate of Massad's LFI-1 course, and enjoyed it quite a bit. The first thing Mas will tell you is that LFI is not a "shooting school" and that he teaches techniques that will work for even an unpracticed shooter. If you want to really learn to run your pistol, Mas will happily refer you to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, ASAA, etc.

The crush grip crudely muscles the gun in an attempt to physically eliminate recoil, or at least minimize it. This is old-school thinking. Pioneering post-modern shooters like Leatham, Enos, Plaxco and others have amply demonstrated that no amount of muscling the gun can enable you to shoot faster. What they teach is to _manage_ the recoil, rather than _fighting_ it, as the crush grip (and the Weaver Stance, for that matter) attempts. When the shooter uses "The Grip," with thumbs high and pointed toward the target, on recoil the front sight simply pops up and then settles right back into the sight picture, immediately ready for the second shot.

The heavy muscular tension created by the crush grip causes the pistol to recoil unpredictably, and the shooter must fight to regain the sights compared to using "The Grip." This actually makes shooting with the crush grip, fighting the recoil with muscle tension the whole way, slower than not fighting the gun at all and simply allowing recoil to pop the sight up and down. (You know you're doing it right when you can track the front sight in recoil, and it moves in a straight line up and down.)

The physiology of "The Grip" prevents a crush grip from occurring, since the thumbs can't do that opposable thing. This, in turn, keeps the muscles of the trigger finger more limber, and allows them to function more independently. This increases finger dexterity and trigger control.

Weapon retention is better managed with body positioning (such as tucking the gun into the "retention position" and blocking with the weak elbow) than with a grip that is substandard for actual shooting.



> The Power Stance or Fighting Stance is where you slightly modify one of the more common stances. Whether it be Weaver, Isoscles, Chapman, etc. The modification comes by taking on leg (for a right handed shooter it would be the right let) place that leg slightly behind you with the knee slightly bent. Straighten the leg, driving the heel or the ball of the foot into the ground. This back leg is now straight and somewhat rigid. The front leg is slightly bent. The head is dropped slightly and the shoulder hunched around the head, something that happens naturally anyway when threatened. The end product looks like a martial arts stance.


I learned this "Power Stance" from Mas personally. He called it StressFire back then. Same technique, different name. I find it excessively rigid. It works okay as long as you don't have to move. But when movement takes place, as it almost invariably will in a fight, stance becomes irrelevant anyway, so I have only minor use for any "stance" when it comes to fighting. Besides, the "Power Stance" is another product of old-school thinking, like the crush grip, where you're fighting the gun and trying to muscle it into submission.

What matters more than anything else is how you lay your hands on the pistol, and how you manage (not fight) the recoil. Fighting recoil with a Power Stance, a Weaver Stance, or whatever, is slower and far less fluid than using "The Grip" as you move through the confrontation - off the line of force, at the diagonal, and perhaps to cover.


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## firemediceric (Oct 26, 2007)

Good points giving me yet even more to consider. Thank you


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