# Another noobs pistol debate



## stoudtlr (Aug 2, 2016)

Hello everyone. Hello again to those that read and replied to my intro post yesterday. I'm not a beginner to firearms, I spent 8 years in the Army with 4 being Infantry and have hunted my whole life, but I would consider myself a noob with pistols. I've decided it's time to buy myself a pistol and would appreciate any opinions. This will be a range and home defense pistol, not a safe Queen or cc weapon so I'm more concerned with ergonomics/feel than I am with size. I do plan on getting my ccw license since I live in PA and it's a simple process, but I work on a military installation in the People's Republic of NJ so the times that I actually can carry will be slim. For those few times that I actually can cc I'll make due with a larger weapon until my job situation changes. If the times comes that I actually can cc more I'll look for a second, smaller pistol then.

What I'm looking for:
A full size pistol in .40 or .45. Preferably a rail. Preferably hammer fired but will consider striker. Easy for a lefty. Doesn't need to be fully ambidextrous, just relatively easy for a lefty to learn with enough practice. Working the slide and mag release on an M4 with my trigger finger became second nature to give you an idea of what I mean. 

I'm looking for suggestions to rent and try at my local range so I don't spend what it would cost to buy a pistol renting and trying everything they have.  I've already tried a Springfield 1911 and a Glock 19. Didn't really care for the Glock. I'm sure I'd get used to it with enough practice, but I didn't really care for the trigger. That's why I'm leaning towards hammer fired single actions. I also wasn't very fond of the grip angle on the Glock. That 1911 seemed to have a more natural feel when pointing it. I would consider a striker fired pistol if anyone has recommendations with a better feeling trigger than the Glock I tried.

My short list to rent and consider so far:
1. Another 1911 just cause I really enjoyed the first one
2. Sig P226
3. HK45
4. CZ 75

I'll gladly consider any other suggestions you all may have. My plan right now is to check them all out at my local gun store to see which ones feel good in my hand and have controls I feel I'll be comfortable with learning to work left handed to narrow down my list and any you all add to it to only 3 or 4 and then I'll make another trip to the range to see how I like actually shooting those.

Thanks in advance for any help!


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Beretta 96A1 or PX4 Storm are worth looking at. Likewise, a Glock 22, Walther PPQ, or H&K VP series are all good choices as well if you want to try the striker fired route. Alot to choose from out there.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

You've got a good list going, there, based on how you want to use it, and what you have already rejected.

Personally, I settled on a CZ-75B for my DA/SA pistol, based on accuracy, reliability, ergonomics, and price. It is my favorite 'range' gun in a semi-auto, and the one I use to teach newbies, mainly because I have the Kadet .22 conversion kit that I can start somebody out with, and then quickly convert it to 9mm, when the .22 gets boring. 

You specified .40 or .45, however, so my advice may not be appropriate. I don't know if the Kadet kit works the same on a .40 S&W model. Personally, I consider the 9mm self-defense loads to be almost as good as .40, so I don't bother with .40 S&W. 

Sigs and HK's are great guns, apparently, but my CZ's have been so good, I have never bothered with the more expensive DA/SA pistols.


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

thanks for your service and welcome from CT

of thos e you mentioned-I would gho with

a Dan wesson specialist(1911)

or the Sig or CZ

I had a HK45 and sold it. even with my large hands, it was hard to reach and pull that trigger. Sigs are more expensive than CZs but NOT better quality IMHO. They have better coating and are easier to field strip BUT they shoot equally as well(very accurate in my hands) I am a CZ junkie. I have a few Sigs and HKs as well

I have really fallen for the 1911s especially Dan WEssons--good luck with your choice

renting first is a great idea

enjoy the ride

rob


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## bigjohn56 (Jan 26, 2013)

Love the CZ's, have a few of them!


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## AZdave (Oct 23, 2015)

Welcome from AZ!

Since I have no idea what a noob is I looked it up. It is not the same as newbie!

Urban Dictionary: Noob 


Urban Dictionary said:


> Contrary to the belief of many, a noob/n00b and a newbie/newb are not the same thing. Newbs are those who are new to some task* and are very beginner at it, possibly a little overconfident about it, but they are willing to learn and fix their errors to move out of that stage. n00bs, on the other hand, know little and have no will to learn any more. They expect people to do the work for them and then expect to get praised about it, and make up a unique species of their own. It is the latter we will study in this guide so that the reader is prepared to encounter them in the wild if needed.


Please don't call me a noob!


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## latigo2 (May 30, 2016)

I have owned two 40 cal pistols and did not like either one. They are not as accurate as a 9mm or .45, and the recoil is sharper and harder to manage than the other calibers. Before anyone calls me a pussy let me say that I have been shooting pistols for over sixty years, and have shot just about everything there is to shoot. I was the rangemaster and firearms instructor for our police department so am certainly not a beginner. I would recommend you try all three calibers before you settle on one.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

boatdoc173 said:


> thanks for your service and welcome from CT
> 
> of thos e you mentioned-I would gho with
> 
> ...


Indeed Sig's are more expensive. As with anything you get what you pay for. While CZ's are great pistols and they are. I've got four of them. The quality of a Sig is much higher. They are more refined with less tooling and machine marks throughout the entire pistol even the roll stamping is more crisp along with the frame checkering. The fit and finish of a Sig can't be beat. They are the Rolls Royce of commercially available handguns today without going to a custom made pistol.

This is not meant to put down CZ's. They work and work very well. The ergonomics is fantastic when you pick up a CZ it fits like a fine leather glove. They are 100% reliable and will give a lifetime worth of service. For the money they can't be beat.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

latigo2 said:


> They are not as accurate as a 9mm or .45,


 Perhaps a better statement would be "they are not as accurate for me." .40S&W is a very accurate round and recoil to me is a non issue.

Hickok45's favorite pistol is a G27 and he shoots that small .40 pistol amazingly. Physics is Physics and the .40cal in general has more ftlbs of energy of equal weight, penetrates deeper and leaves a bigger hole than 9mm.

I use both rounds and if out on a woods walk where perhaps blackbear, wild hogs or cougar may be a factor, I'd prefer 165 grn flatnose fmj.


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## high pockets (Apr 25, 2011)

2 things about CZ

1) CZ75 is 9mm - If you are considering the CZ75B, I would suggest the CZ85B, or the CZ85 Combat, which are the ambi versions of the CZ75B.

2) CZ97B, or CZ97BD, if you prefer .45ACP

Sigs are not particularly lefty-friendly. I have a Sig P938, which has an ambi safety, but still have to deal with the left side slide release.

Personal preference would be the HK. Not too familiar with the HK45, my experience is with the P30S and the P30SKS; both have been great.


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## Craigh (Jul 29, 2016)

stoudtlr said:


> What I'm looking for:
> A full size pistol in .40 or .45. Preferably a rail. Preferably hammer fired but will consider striker. Easy for a lefty. Doesn't need to be fully ambidextrous, just relatively easy for a lefty to learn with enough practice. Working the slide and mag release on an M4 with my trigger finger became second nature to give you an idea of what I mean.


I love 1911A models by Springfield Arms, but if I could only have one handgun, it would probably be my Sig P220. I've owned a couple with the first being the Browning BDA version in the mid 1970s and the current one being fairly new. They are easy to use in an emergency and fit like a glove. I especially like the de-cocking lever and simple take down lever for field stripping, making it simple and fast to field strip for cleaning. Mine have always been very accurate as well.

I think one of my favorite things about it is its reliability. I purchased that first one because of so many reviews and reports of reliability in all kinds of weather and conditions. Now, almost 40 years and thousands of rounds later (including some shoddy reloads with very old brass), I can attest to this fact. I can't remember anytime it jammed, misfired or acted in any unexpected manner even consistently feeding "dixie cup" type hollow points except once, my fault. The one jam was my fault as I'd not properly seated a swaged bullet in a brass casing that had a chip out of it. At the time, I was running thousands of rounds through my CH Pistol Champ press and I missed that one. Other than that, no jams, even after muddy soakings in the field many times and with consistent accuracy.

Finally, even though the Sig is considered expensive by some, the standard model with an integral rail can be had for around $1000 new or a little less. For what you get, I think it's a bargain. Your mileage may vary.

Take care and be safe. 

Craig


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## stoudtlr (Aug 2, 2016)

denner said:


> Beretta 96A1 or PX4 Storm are worth looking at.





Bisley said:


> I settled on a CZ-75B for my DA/SA pistol, based on accuracy, reliability, ergonomics, and price.





boatdoc173 said:


> Dan wesson specialist(1911) or the Sig or CZ





bigjohn56 said:


> Love the CZ's, have a few of them!





desertman said:


> The fit and finish of a Sig can't be beat. They are the Rolls Royce of commercially available handguns





high pockets said:


> I would suggest the CZ85B, or the CZ85 Combat...CZ97B, or CZ97BD, if you prefer .45ACP





Craigh said:


> I love 1911A models by Springfield Arms, but if I could only have one handgun, it would probably be my Sig P220


Thanks for all the great advice guys! Just got home from my local gun store and was able to handle many of the ones I was considering and your suggestions. They didn't have all the different CZ models mentioned, but they had a few. They also didn't have the Beretta 96, but they did have the PX4.



AZdave said:


> Welcome from AZ!
> 
> Since I have no idea what a noob is I looked it up. It is not the same as newbie!
> 
> ...


That's new to me. Just like the link said about most people, I've always thought newbie and noob were the same thing. Guess I'll stop using noob. lol.

Well, after my trip today I gotta say that I am in LOVE. The problem is that it's with two different women! Err guns. There was a Sig P226 Legion and they also had the Dan Wesson Specialist that was suggest. Both felt and looked amazing in their own way. I think I actually liked the Sig more. I loved that SRT trigger. The sights were great too. Only thing is that it was 9mm when I was originally thinking 40 or 45. Not a big deal though. If 9mm is good enough for all the various military and police units it will be good enough for me. Won't rule out getting a 9mm. I can't think of anything bad to say about the Specialist, but in my hands the P226 felt like a better fit. The controls aren't bad to operate as a lefty either. Slide stop definitely is sure, but how often will that actually be used? Decocker and mag release though were both easy for me to operate with my trigger finger.

I still want to make another trip to the range to rent a P226 and a couple others, but I was real close to impulse buying tonight. That Legion almost came home with me.


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## Kennydale (Jun 10, 2013)

NO GLOCKS !

Anyway. I had a Sig P239 for about a year and gave up on DA/SA but that doesn't mean I don't like SIGS. FROM YOUR LIST i'D GO SIG P226 (The Legion looks FANTASTIC) First then CZ But for me it would be the P 09 Polymer, Omega trigger and 19+1 capacity (plus you decide SAFETY or Decocker, they give you both)


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## boatdoc173 (Mar 15, 2014)

buy both-- you will not regret it the legion is an excellent gun as is the specialist


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## stoudtlr (Aug 2, 2016)

boatdoc173 said:


> buy both-- you will not regret it the legion is an excellent gun as is the specialist


I could take a little out of savings and get both, but then I would probably have to ensure I also withdrew enough for the divorce attorney!

I was up till almost 2am last night reading every review I could find on both, watching a bunch of YouTube reviews, and browsing the Sig and DW websites. I'm sure my purchase will definitely be one of these two.

I will eventually get a 2nd pistol for conceal carry once I'm in PA full time instead of living here, but working in NJ like now. That's adding more confusion to my head. The Legion now and a DW Vbob later for cc? Watched a ton of Vbob reviews last night and that thing seems real sweet. Or maybe the Specialist now and then a smaller Sig, like the P225, later for cc? While I'm sure the trigger on that isn't as good as the Grayguns trigger I liked on the Legion it is at least the SRT type. So many choices!


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## Philco (Apr 17, 2012)

One of the great things about buying a pistol is that eventually it does not have to be your only pistol. Nuff said ? :smt033


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## Swampguy (Jun 23, 2016)

Stoudtlr,

Lots of good advice given here. I agree that you can't go wrong with the Sig. I have two Sigs and love them, but I also have two CZs and love them just as much. If you are value conscious, and you wind up going with 9mm, I recommend that you try "this one" .... CZ-USA CZ P-01 - CZ-USA ... before you shell out your hard earned bucks. It is the most accurate and most reliable pistol I own. Imho, it is every bit as good as the Sig, and cost about half as much.

Also, if/when you decide to go with a smaller pistol for concealed carry, take a look at the Sig P938. For a small pistol, it is amazingly accurate. I like the 7 round mags as it helps fit a larger hand. Again, as I am sure you know, ones favorites shooters are often driven by personal preference, but the CZ P01 Compact, might just be a pleasant surprise for you as it was for me.

Good luck on your search.


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## latigo2 (May 30, 2016)

denner said:


> Perhaps a better statement would be "they are not as accurate for me." .40S&W is a very accurate round and recoil to me is a non issue.
> 
> Hickok45's favorite pistol is a G27 and he shoots that small .40 pistol amazingly. Physics is Physics and the .40cal in general has more ftlbs of energy of equal weight, penetrates deeper and leaves a bigger hole than 9mm.
> 
> I use both rounds and if out on a woods walk where perhaps blackbear, wild hogs or cougar may be a factor, I'd prefer 165 grn flatnose fmj.


When my department switched from a Beretta 92 9mm to a Beretta 96 40 cal., everybody's score went down, even the best shooters. That is basically the exact same gun and nothing changed but the caliber. We even kept the same Winchester ammo. That tells me that for some reason, and I wont speculate, the 40 is not as accurate as either a 9 or 45.


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Nothing feels and shoots quite like a model 1911 in .45 ACP but a hammer-fired SAO pistol would probably not be my choice of a first pistol for HD and especially not for carry. Assuming you are going to keep the pistol cocked and locked, until you have trained yourself to sweep the safety off instinctively and keep your finger off that light single action trigger, I think a different manual of arms might make more sense.

Although traditional double action pistols (DA/SA) like the SIG-Sauer P226 and 229, or the Beretta 92FS/M9 have lost ground to the so-called "safe action" or striker-fired action pistols over the last few decades, I personally feel that they may be a safer choice for many. I prefer DA/SA pistols with a so-called "live trigger" decocker like the SIGs or the Beretta G models to those with a "dead trigger" decocker (or decocker/safety) like the Beretta 92/M9 for self-defense purposes, since they eliminate the risk of forgetting to disengage the safety when the chips are down, or accidentally engaging the safety when cycling the slide to clear a malfunction.

It sounds to me as if the SIG P226 felt great and shot great for you. It does for me as well. If so, it sounds as if your decision might be made. The Legions are great pistols, no doubt, and I would jump with joy if someone gave me one, but there are a couple of things about them I don't like. Keep in mind I have only dry fired them. I do own a SIG P229 in .40 S&W however.

The Legions have rather miniaturized slide catch and decocking levers. I find them harder to locate and use and I do not find the regular sized control levers intrusive in any way. I also don't care for the beavertail on the Legions. The beavertail is not as pronounced as on the P226 Elite, but it is significantly larger than the tang on the regular P226 frame. The normal tang is plenty long enough for recoil control and to protect the hand from slide or trigger bite, so the beavertail is just for looks. It may look cool, but it adds length and weight that is unnecessary and and undesirable if the pistol is carried. Some have also complained that the finish on the Legions is not as durable as that on the regular P226.

The Legions do have some nice features, though: Grayguns P-SAIT trigger, short reset "trigger" kit, phosphate-coated internals, some additional checkering on the front strap and front and underside of the trigger guard (if that matters to you), undercutting of the trigger guard near the frame, G-10 grips, and SIG X-Ray night sights.

If the price of the Legion is a sticking point, here is an option to consider. There are many SIG P226s and 229s chambered in .40 S&W being sold as police trade-ins right now, sometimes for less than $500. Here is an example with night sights that came up after a 30 second search on Google:

Sig Sauer P226R 40 S&W w/ Night Sights - Very Good Condition for sale by Recoil Gunworks of Salem Indiana

Here are a few things you may or may not already know. You can send any used SIG pistol to the SIG-Sauer Custom Shop for what they call the SIG Service Package for $144.95. This includes disassembly and cleaning, factory inspection of all parts, replacement of recoil, trigger bar, decocker, and slide catch lever springs, and installation of SIGLITE factory night sights:

Custom Shop Services

If you like the P226 Legion trigger action you can come very close to it on your own. The SRT (short reset trigger kit) is actually a modified sear and safety lever (no trigger) and it can be installed on any P226 or 229 by anyone with a modicum of mechanical aptitude. Likewise, the trigger is not hard to swap, and the same P-SAIT trigger that comes on the Legions can be bought from Bruce Gray at grayguns dot com. Likewise, SIG X-Ray sights can be installed on any P226 or 229 and the cheapest source seems to be amazon dot com. The exact same grips that come on the Legion are not available commercially, but Hogue G-10 grips that are very similar are available. There are youtube videos detailing installation of the SRT and trigger.

As for the accuracy of .40 S&W, I too found I was not very accurate with it initially. But after some experience I have found that I have about the same first shot accuracy with it than I do with .45 ACP, and better than I do with 9mm Luger. I have heard Mas Ayoob claim that the .40 S&W round is inherently less accurate than the other common pistol rounds, but he is talking about a slightly bigger group size when shooting from rest at 25 yards. In terms of combat accuracy I do not believe that there is any significant difference. As for the Beretta 96, that pistol, unfortunately, did have a reputation for decreased accuracy and longevity compared to the 92 series.

The all-metal SIG P229 handles the recoil of .40 S&W and 357 SIG exceptionally well. Since the P226 is bigger still, and several ounces heavier, I would expect it to do so at least as well.


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## dereckbc (Jan 2, 2016)

Simple go to a range that has the guns you are considering and try them. Having said that be aware there is a difference between a home defense gun and range gun IMHO. For myself I prefer a 357 magnum revolver for home defense (leg cannon), but rarely take it to the range because ammo is expensive. Just enough to stay sharp and familiar without breaking the bank. For the range I use a 9mm where ammo cost just less than 20-cents/round. Heck some pistol ranges around here won't let you bring a 357 in because it can damage the bullet traps.

So be sure you choose a caliber you can afford the ammo.


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## stoudtlr (Aug 2, 2016)

Thanks for the great advice!

I'm still shopping. Had a chance to get back to the range today with the hopes of shooting the P226, but a group that was there for a bachelor party showed up just before me and one of the pistols they took was that one. It would be almost closing time before they would be finished so instead of leaving without shooting anything I rented the P320 sub compact they also had. Have no interest in buying one, but it was still fun to shoot.

Maybe next time I stop the P226 will be available. I really want to shoot one to confirm my thoughts while holding one at my lgs before buying it.


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