# Question about DA / SA Carry Gun



## Danny (May 25, 2011)

On Monday, I lost my virginity, and shot a Kimber, Custom II, 1911 .45! It was love at first shot to say the least. It was so easy to shoot, and I was WAY more accurate with it, than I ever was with my XD Tactical 9mm, or my PX4 .40. I just aimed, pulled the trigger, and bam, it hit right where I shot…it was almost too easy, too good to be true.

I became an instant 1911 fan, and now understand why they get so much praise! I went to the gun store, looking at the new Kimbers, and a Sig Sauer, 4” Nightmare Carry. I have big hands, and the bottom corner (butt) of the straight grip handles on the typical 1911, seemed to slightly dig into my hand, and when I held the Sig, which has the rounded butt, it felt amazing. The gun in general felt great in my hand, the rounded butt just made it a lot better.

I want a CCW gun, and after shooting this Kimber, I thought of getting a 4” 1911 to carry, but I’ve read several comments about people not carrying them, if they are new to the 1911. 

My question is about the single action, for a carry gun. If I understand correctly, on a 1911, you rack the slide, and at that point, you simply have to engage the manual safety, and holster it. How much of an issue/concern is it to have the hammer in the cocked position, (safety on) on you while carrying??

I may like the P-227, since they are DA/SA, which seems a little safer than a SAO 1911. I’d love to hear some thoughts on this, if you don’t mind.

I really wanted a 1911, but have considered the P-227 in 45. I’m just wondering whether I’d like the way it shoots, considering either of these guns would be 8 oz lighter than the Kimber I shot, and I’m just not sure how much more recoil I’d get from these lighter guns? The Kimber weighs in at 38 oz, and the P-227 at 30 oz. My only frame of reference, is the Kimber, which felt like a 9mm or less, recoil-wise!

I drooling over the Sig Nightmare Carry 45, but I wonder if it’s the safest, best choice for me as a carry gun? Sig has MANY models to choose from, which doesn’t make it easy. I’m just trying to make a smart choice.

Feel free to ‘sell me’ on the Sig P-227, or the Sig 1911, considering the safety concern above.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

The 1911 is perfectly safe to carry cocked and locked manual safety on. I'd go with the P227 as there is no safety to disengage. Some people do not like the long double action trigger pull on a DA/SA semi auto for the first shot and the transition to SA after that. If that bothers you, you might want to look into a striker fire .45 instead. If I need a gun in an emergency self defense situation, I just do not want to have to deal with disengaging any type of manual safety. It's just something else you have to do and remember. Sure you can practice all you want to, but you'll never really know just how you'll react when having to draw a weapon in a split second and have to fire. A violent confrontation can and could happen completely unexpected and in the blink of an eye. That split second could cost you your life. Especially if you forget to disengage a safety.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I personally only carry DA/SA guns now. Years ago, I did carry a 1911.

But, I like the added trigger weight on that first shot to keep me from doing something by accident. And, I don't want to have to remember to deactivate any safety. Years ago, it was second nature for me on a 1911. In more recent years, I have owned so many different guns that it is no longer second nature.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand the safety setup, or lack of, on this gun. So, it has a de-cocker, but no manual safety of any kind? The 10# DA trigger serves as part of the safety, like a revolver?


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Danny said:


> Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand the safety setup, or lack of, on this gun. So, it has a de-cocker, but no manual safety of any kind? The 10# DA trigger serves as part of the safety, like a revolver?


In the 1911 platform cocked and locked you have to defeat 2 safetys, the manual safety first and then the grip safety, then the trigger. The odds of defeating both of those are very slim. On a striker fired platform w/ no maunal safety you don't have to defeat any, just pull the trigger, or have the trigger pulled. Comparing trigger weight and travel generally 1911's are true single actions both short and light on the trigger.

Striker fired pistols generally are midrange to light in trigger 5 to 7 pounds. DA/SA generally your looking at 8 to 12 pounds with longer travel, so, in my opinion are indeed the least likely to have an accidental discharge while carrying safety or not. You really need to screw up royally to have a DA/SA negligent/accidental discharge while carrying.

The 10# DA trigger serves as part of the safety, like a revolver. Yep.

Caveat: If you decide to go with a DA/SA, I strongly advise that you become proficient on the first DA pull and it's transition to SA. That's where the striker fired trigger shines for those not accustomed nor willing to learn with proficiency the DA/SA trigger.


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## Spike12 (Dec 10, 2008)

I tried to carry a DA/SA gun for about a year (Stoeger Cougar in .40). I love the gun but that DA first shot was just bad news. 

Long story short, I've been carrying a S&W 1911 Commander, Series E, 8+1, night sites, with Scandium frame. Their model "SW1911SC". It's my 6th 1911. One of the biggest things that drew me to it was the rounded butt or some call it 'bobbed'. Secondly was the lighter frame. Is the lighter weight a problem? Not at all if you use the firm grip a 1911 or any other pistol demands. I think you owe it to yourself to check it out on their website. 

I'm not a fan of Kimber products. I think the Series E line has fine, useful features and nothing just to jack up the price. 

I carry it in 'Condition 1', Cocked and Locked. There's one in the tube, hammer back, safety on. When you need your CCW you don't have time to rack a round. Don't give the grip safety a second thought, if you have your hand on the gun anything close to properly that safety is off. If the average punk gets your gun away from you I think the 1911 safety will probably confuse him/her. The safety flicks off with a positive snick. 

I would not go with a 3" 1911. I've had two and couldn't get either one to run a full mag.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

If you carry a single-action semi-auto with a safety lever, for instance the 1911, _you need to make sure that the holster in which you carry it is shaped so that it helps to immobilize that safety lever_.
I've had holsters which not only allowed the safety to move to "off," but even helped it to do so. (No, I hadn't made them. But a couple of them were "famous maker" rigs.)

Although my own EDC pistol is a single-action with a safety lever, I agree with *desertman* (post #2, nearby) that it requires almost too much practice, to make absolutely sure that the gun's safety goes to "off" at the right moment during each presentation, and that it does so without fail.
In that matter, I can indeed recommend the 1911, but "if and only if" you practice to _always_ put your thumb on that safety lever, and to _always_ press down hard on it while you're shooting. Pressing down hard on the 1911's safety lever while shooting does a lot to stabilize the pistol, and to help control recoil so you get back on-target quicker.

While my experience tells me that learning to shoot a full-size, full-weight, single-action (SA) 1911 in .45 ACP is the easiest route to quick accuracy, and even good safety practices, further experience tells me that the traditional-double-action (TDA) pistol is the most difficult type of handgun to learn to use effectively and well.
In TDA, your first shot is "double-action" (DA), with its long and hard trigger pull, while subsequent shots are SA, with a short, relatively lighter trigger action. Thus, you have the further complication of having to switch from one type of trigger to another while in mid-fight.

As *desertman* suggests, a consistent, but long and somewhat heavier, trigger may be the better answer. Thus, the somewhat-less-practiced defensive shooter might be better served by a double-action-only (DAO) pistol, which requires no separate safety lever. Its long, somewhat-heavy trigger action, coupled with the three pounds of safety device that you carry between your ears, can be safety enough.


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## Cuthahotha (Dec 14, 2015)

If you have hands as large as mine. (often referred to as "paws"), you might want to try the CZ 2075 Rami. It has a de-cock so it's just draw and start pulling trigger. DA for first shot, SA after that.

The ergonomics on it are great.


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## CW (Mar 20, 2015)

On my CZ PCR, the de-cocker drops the hammer to a "half cock" position making the DA pull a little less.

It is interesting how application, skill, experience will all flavor your choice of a pistol. It's regularly said, you should try to find shops, clubs, venues where you can try the various makes out there.

More than likely you will have a varied collection in no time and find your own preferences change with use.

My first pistol was an SA Ruger which I carried on the xmas tree farm. Woodchucks and abandoned [feral-coy] dogs were regular hazards.
The loading - unloading process moved me to a DA revolver.
I then went from SA-auto 1911a1, to Berertta 96a1 with de-cock-safety, to my current CZ PCR de-cocker.

I think most would agree, Safety is built in to all these designs, but you must learn how to use them to be both safe and effective.

For me, each step required new skills, practice, and evaluation of application - purpose, threat level, safety, as well as my basic ability to hit the target.

This forum has also offered much in the collective experiences of others which really help in that evaluation.

What ever choice you make, Confidence in *your *choice is critical.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Thanks to all who have replied! This thread has been VERY educational for me, and I now realize how intricate, and serious this issue really is. There is no 'perfect' gun for CC, but as mentioned several times, "practice, practice, practice, with whatever you choose to carry". 

About engaging/disengaging the safety on the Sig 1911...it's right there above my thumb, and feels like it was custom fit for my hand, so that should make things a little easier, when drawing it, and re holstering. I assume certain brands of holsters work better for certain brands/models of guns, or are there companies that make HQ stuff for any gun? I've ran across Theis, and Galco...any other recommendations?

Thanks Again!

On dry firing, how many of you use/recommend those 'snap-caps'?

Thanks Again!


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## acepilot (Dec 16, 2012)

My favorite carry pistol is my Sig P226 .40cal. It has a decocker. I don't mind the DA first pull followed by SA pulls. I do not have tons of experience, but the idea of holstering something like a 1911 with one in the pipe and safety lever engaged seems a bit scary (for lack of a better word). Seems to me that shoving the gun into the holster would disable the grip safety so one is relying on the thumb safety and nothing accidentally squeezing the trigger (like maybe a poor holster design). Again, this is all PERSONAL choice for me and undoubtedly clouded because of lack of experience with the 1911...


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

So much to consider...tough to decide which style would be best for me. I have a tendency to over-think things; at some point, I guess you just have to make a decision, and run with it, and see what happens.


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## TurboHonda (Aug 4, 2012)

Danny said:


> So much to consider...tough to decide which style would be best for me. I have a tendency to over-think things; at some point, I guess you just have to make a decision, and run with it, and see what happens.


The beauty of guns and guitars is you're not restricted to only one.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Use snap-caps. They're cheap insurance.

My own recommendation for practice includes no more than 10 minutes a day (each and every day) of dry-fire trigger-control and sight-picture practice, including slow, smooth presentations, plus a minimum of 50 rounds a week of thoughtful live-fire practice.
Beware: If you practice to do things incorrectly, it's not good, effective practice. It's a good idea to get some coaching help from someone who knows how to teach. (Not all "firearms instructors" are teachers, since teaching effectively and well is a talent, not a learned skill.)

Quick accuracy with a pistol is the result of slow, smooth repetitions. Do not try to be quick. Instead, be smooth. "Smooth is faster than fast."
Quickness comes to one "automatically," after putting in lots of slow, smooth practice.

Do not practice to exhaustion. That teaches you all the wrong things, as your tired body starts to "wobble" and you attempt to compensate for it.
Stick to 10 minutes a day...or even less.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Steve, my buddy told me about using that 10:00 (10-15) principle, when training dogs, for the same reason you stated. Good principles apply in many places. About practicing correctly, Tony Blauer (combatives guy) has a maxim..."be careful what you practice...you might get really good, at the WRONG thing"! Thanks for the tips, I'm sure they will serve me well.


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## desertman (Aug 29, 2013)

Danny said:


> Steve, my buddy told me about using that 10:00 (10-15) principle, when training dogs, for the same reason you stated. Good principles apply in many places. About practicing correctly, Tony Blauer (combatives guy) has a maxim...*"be careful what you practice...you might get really good, at the WRONG thing"*! Thanks for the tips, I'm sure they will serve me well.


I love it!


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Danny said:


> About engaging/disengaging the safety on the Sig 1911...it's right there above my thumb, and feels like it was custom fit for my hand, so that should make things a little easier, when drawing it, and re holstering. I assume certain brands of holsters work better for certain brands/models of guns, or are there companies that make HQ stuff for any gun? I've ran across Theis, and Galco...any other recommendations?


In which ever you choose for your CCW Sig 1911, or for any carry 1911, if it were me I'd make sure the safety lever rides well above the top of the holster. Or, as we should say "a holster that rides the gun high," while of course covering the trigger. I'd probably want one with a slightly forward cant as well.

A holster of this style, not necessarily this one.: http://shop.opticsplanet.com/galco-...plusbox-beta&gclid=CJGHkPK5isoCFZOCaQodweIFVQ


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## dismas316 (May 5, 2015)

A lot of good post already but realize one thing. As a new shooter, you taste will change quit a bit as you become experienced in shooting. You will get somewhat spoiled with the 1911 triggers but understand with any manual of arms whether is da/sa or sao with a safety, you have to really train to become proficient AND comfortable. Personally not a big fan of safeties and I love the da/sa, especially the sigs, and love my 227 carry. But that's just me, everyone has different taste, what works for me may not work for you. Good luck with you choice.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Well, I didn't get the Sig 1911...but I ended up with a P-226 Nitron 9mm, and wow, what a nice gun! Just bought it yesterday, and went to the range last night to shoot it.









I did so much reading, here and other places online, so I felt like I did as much homework as someone possibly could, but in the end, you never really know if your choice will be the right one. I wanted this gun to give me the same shooting experience that I had with the Kimber 1911/45, and I'm happy to say that it did!! It really didn't feel much heavier than my SA XD Tactical 9mm, but it sure shot a LOT nicer! I was even able to shoot accurate with the heavy DA, on the first shot...it's quite smooth. The de-cocker is a nice feature. Extremely comfortable in my hand.

Like the Kimber, it's easy to shoot accurately, which is nice. My wife even liked it, despite not being a small gun; she shot it one handed, and got the first three shots in the small red bull's-eye, and this was her first time shooting with one hand. I'll attribute some of that to it simply being a Sig! I'm just glad that it ended up being what I had hoped it would be...well worth the $$$ ($800 @ Academy).


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Well, I didn't get the Sig 1911...but I ended up with a P-226 Nitron 9mm, and wow, what a nice gun! Just bought it yesterday, and went to the range last night to shoot it.

View attachment 1909


I did so much reading, here and other places online, so I felt like I did as much homework as someone possibly could, but in the end, you never really know if your choice will be the right one. I wanted this gun to give me the same shooting experience that I had with the Kimber 1911/45, and I'm happy to say that it did!! It really didn't feel much heavier than my SA XD Tactical 9mm, but it sure shot a LOT nicer! I was even able to shoot accurate with the heavy DA, on the first shot...it's quite smooth. The de-cocker is a nice feature. Extremely comfortable in my hand.

Like the Kimber, it's easy to shoot accurately, which is nice. My wife even liked it, despite not being a small gun; she shot it one handed, and got the first three shots in the small red bull's-eye, and this was her first time shooting with one hand. I'll attribute some of that to it simply being a Sig! I'm just glad that it ended up being what I had hoped it would be...well worth the $$$ ($800 @ Academy).


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## VAMarine (Dec 25, 2008)

Glad you like it.


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## Freethought (Jan 10, 2016)

I'll point out that the P227 ,P220 ,226 ,228 ,229 indeed most Sigs save the 320 and 250 are NOT striker fired. I carry Sigs almost daily , rarely carry a 1911 anymore , on some occasions I will carry on of my pre-lock Smiths or a Security Six. 

A quality carry rig is to my way of thinking a *necessity* , the initial investment may be pricey but will pay dividends for a long time down the road. 

And *train* with the specific carry sidearm that you will use , religiously and extensively , train frequently and keep your skills sharp. Alway keep in mind the first four rules.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

Yeah, I look forward to more practice, especially considering how much fun this gun is to shoot! Any specific recommendations for a carry holster? I realize this isn't an ideal carry gun by most peoples standards, but it will be a limited frequency thing for me at this point, but would like a legit holster for it when I do.


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## Freethought (Jan 10, 2016)

Andrews Leather Catalog

Got a whole slew of his..........Mcdaniels II crossdraw being a favorite , work great for IWB appendix carry , Carjacker Crossdraw , shoulder rigs etc. I can make a buncha recommendations for other makers that do leather if you don't see something that catches your interest. I don't do Kydex and I don't do the modern off the rack stuff , though I do have a bunch of old Galco , Bucheimer and others. The old Sparks designs might be something you wish to look into.


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## Freethought (Jan 10, 2016)

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## Freethought (Jan 10, 2016)

double deleted........


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Might've been better to post your list at the _Handgun Accessories_ topic-area.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

Wow, thats one heck of a list. Good job. .


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

My two cents... You are quite articulate in both your writing, your openness to learning, and your approach to this topic. All this means is that I am quite certain you'll do well and take the right decision for you; which is really all that matters in the end.

Which gun to use, which action type to employee, and how to go about making all of this work is an intensely personal thing. Granted there are some constants in all of it but still, what works for Bill may not work so well for Sam. I prefer quality striker fired pistols for carry and home defense. At this time, and for some time, this means the Glock and the Smith and Wesson M&P platforms, in that order. I don't want to have to think about whether or not a safety is engaged or disengaged should the time come that I have to use my sidearm. All I want to do is "pull and pull" (pull the gun and pull the trigger). That is how I train and that is what works best for me. But as I said, this all VERY personal and that is the way it should be.

You got some fine answers for the people here. Welcome to one of the best gun websites around.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

SouthernBoy, I appreciate the compliment. I agree that most of this is personal, but as you said, I was looking for the 'constants', which are very important. I've never carried a pistol before, so I have absolutely NO experience to draw from, which is what's so great about these forums!
The list above is incredible, and I'm sure there are many others that exist, that aren't even listed, although these probably represent the best ones. Yeah, the issue of "pulling the gun & pulling the trigger" was something that attracted me to this gun, even with the 'heavy' first pull. As smooth as this trigger is, with some practice, I don't see it being a problem, and I'm sure I can get proficient with the first shot accuracy, and then transitioning to the lighter SA pull that follows. 
This is my first high end pistol. I believe in the principle "you get what you pay for"....and this gun is proof of that!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Danny said:


> SouthernBoy, I appreciate the compliment. I agree that most of this is personal, but as you said, I was looking for the 'constants', which are very important. I've never carried a pistol before, so I have absolutely NO experience to draw from, which is what's so great about these forums!
> The list above is incredible, and I'm sure there are many others that exist, that aren't even listed, although these probably represent the best ones. Yeah, the issue of "pulling the gun & pulling the trigger" was something that attracted me to this gun, even with the 'heavy' first pull. As smooth as this trigger is, with some practice, I don't see it being a problem, and I'm sure I can get proficient with the first shot accuracy, and then transitioning to the lighter SA pull that follows.
> This is my first high end pistol. I believe in the principle "you get what you pay for"....and this gun is proof of that!


I'm not a fan of the double action pistol (frequently referred to as DA/SA) because of the heavy first pull of the trigger. However, I do own three of them and would carry them and use them in the event I had to do so. I like the lighter trigger of my striker fired guns (I have modified the triggers in all of them) because I get the same trigger from start to finish.

Your new Sig is a fine weapon and will serve you well. Sig products are very high quality so that is not going to be an issue. Train often, carry everywhere you can when you get your permit, and stay safe.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Manually cocking the hammer in a DA/SA style handgun is always an option for me.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

So, on the 226, if you load the mag, rack the slide, then de-cock the gun, at this point, if you manually cock the hammer as pic said above, is the trigger pull light (SA) or heavy (DA)? I only shot it the one time Wednesday, but I was not focusing on that particular thing. If the hammer is down, and you pull, I understand that will be DA, but the other way seems that it'd be SA....


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## pblanc (Mar 3, 2015)

Yes, any time the hammer is cocked, either by hand or through the slide cycling, the trigger action will be single action. Double action is also called "trigger cocking" in that the trigger both cocks the hammer and releases it.


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## Danny (May 25, 2011)

pblanc, thanks for the info.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

The action type of a handgun ALWAYS refers to the tasks performed by the trigger; never a hammer or striker. If you keep this in mind, you'll be fine.


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