# Weird CCW Issue I Never Had Before



## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

A touch long, sorry. But curious to see what you would have done.

Ok, this is something I never even thought of before. I went to BJ's tonight (like Costco or Sam's Club), finished my shopping, and went to leave. As usual, there was someone at the door waiting to check your receipt against what was in your cart. She then told me she needed to look in my backpack/purse. I have never had this happen at BJ's before. And I wasn't very comfortable with it. For one thing, it is my purse, backpack or not, and there are things not to be shared with strangers in there. But my Glock was also in there. 

I had to open every compartment of the bag, and there are several. A line was building behind me and I knew the main compartment could have an issue. I just hopped it would go unnoticed, at least loudly. She asked to see in the last compartment, and I didn't say a word as I opened it up to reveal the Glock. Didn't have much choice, it is just sort of there, ya know? Open the compartment and you see a Glock. Nothing I could do. 

The girl's eyes got real wide as I closed the bag up again as soon as I could and she began to back away with a real frightened look on her face, which caused a lot of people behind me to wonder, loudly, what was going on. I couldn't leave because she was still holding something I'd just bought. I said, quietly, to the girl, "I have a permit." It was my weak attempt to get her to calm down and not freak out, causing the people behind me to get weird, too. The girl just sort of stammered something about a gun in my bag. The woman behind me says, "Oh, my God." And a guy two behind her just says to both of them, "Oh, ladies, get over it." I took my leave as quickly as possible without making any issue of it or drawing any more attention to myself.

The store has no sign stating no concealed weapons anywhere. I have looked several times. And no laws forbiding it. I was well within my rights to conceal in the store. And since I have never before been asked to open all the compartments of my bag (or any at all, for that matter) I didn't think tonight would be any different and never imagined I'd end up having to show my gun to the door girl. I can't carry it at work, so I tend to just drop it in the largest compartment so it can be accessed easily if needed (and I need to bring it back and forth from my car to the building because things in that neighborhood haven't been kind in recent months). I didn't show it in a threatening manner, heck, I didn't even touch it. It just happened that you could see the grip sticking up from the bottom of the compartment when I opened it to show her I hadn't stolen anything. She chose to react like I was trying to kill her and the woman behind me, when she realized what was happening because this woman actually told her, reacted in a similar way. No one else in the line seemed to care (or they weren't paying much attention at this point), but that doesn't guarantee that next time they wouldn't. I was forced to show my bag and was called out publicly for no reason.

So, what would you have done in this situation, or what should/could I have done differently? I don't go to this store often, but I do on occassion and unfortunetly I tend to go either after work or at moment's notice when I remember I need something. So bringing my gun in again is highly likely, and leaving it in the car isn't adviseable (too many car break ins around there). Thanks!


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## Lucky7 (Nov 7, 2007)

You handled that situation great! Nothing you could have really done better. As far as the ladies behind you are concerned...they are probably first in line to vote against CCW, and first to complain about not enough security in their neighborhood!


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

No way in the world would I let some minimum-wage stranger go through my personal stuff. I would let her look in my cart and check off the receipt, like they always do at the warehouse stores, but the search stops there. I wouldn't let them treat me like a criminal for the "privilege" of shopping in their store.

I would have refused the search and walked right on past her. What can she do? Physically detain me? Nope, not without suspicion of shoplifting. Call the cops? Fine. I'd be gone before they arrived anyway, if they even bothered to show up.

No way in hell would I go back, and I would let the management know why.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I worked loss prevention for 5 years prior to being a probation officer. We did suprise package checks on employees all the time. 

But, I honestly cannot imagine the store authorizing an employee to check personal bags of CUSTOMERs. You said that you've never had this done before - and I wonder if this is something THIS employee took upon herself (or misunderstood her directions).

As Mike said - ain't no way I'm letting someone like that check me or my wife's purse. They want to check the receipt and count the items I bought (as matched to the receipt), fine. But you really should have refused - especially if you had a gun in your purse...

Unless they already suspected you of stealing something - they would have done nothing to you. You refusing to be checked is not even enough suspicion to stop you for shoplifting really. And, I wouldn't really worry about them calling the cops for a simple refusal. Like I said - unless they are trying to catch you because they thought U stole something already - you don't need to comply. In fact - I think if the woman insisted - I would have demanded to see the manager right then.

I sense that you were unsure of how to handle it. But, since I've been the guy who caught the thieves for a large store chain - I know how they think and how they (corporations) are worry about being sued. Hell - if I had ever stopped someone for shoplifting and made a mistake - I would have been fired. That's why I can't get over them checking personal bags of customers.

Next time - don't back down. Stick to a refusal.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Yeah, I was very much caught off guard, I'll admit it, and I had no idea what to do. They have a sign that states they are going to check all bags you have on you, but this is the first time in the six years I've been going there that they actually did it.


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## bl7205 (Dec 4, 2007)

I was recently a GM of a similar corporation, so I may actually be able to contribute to this question... for once. First off, almost any business will have a sign (somewhere) saying it reserves the right to search your possessions. The catch is that a person of "management" must have reasonable suspicion to even ask to look in your personal belongings. For example...they must witness you taking, concealing, and attempting to walk out of the establishment with the said product, without "attempting" to pay for it. Even at that point they can not retain you. At the most, they can call the police and give a description of you and the product they believe you stole ( and if they're smart enough, your license plate # ).

My suggestion to you would be to go to the management of this store, in a friendly manner, and explain the situation :smt083. Most likely this employee was trying to do their best, but was not trained correctly. Unless you are boarding an airplane or entering a Federal building.... you have no responsibilty to succumb to a search of your belongings.

-Jeff


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## vernpriest (Jan 15, 2008)

I was a senior security officer for several years for a large retail chain. This door person had no right to search your personal belongings and you should have refused, showed her your receipt for the items you purchased and then walked past. If she then stopped you, she would have been detaining you, which can be big problems for that store. We could only check someones personal belongings after we had arrested them for shoplifting. We had to clearly see several things before we could even stop them. If we had done what this individual had done we would have been fired. I would strongly suggest that you contact the senior management of this organization and inform them of what was done to you.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*point to ponder*

Ma'am quite interesting. Made me think of the 'Bota' [man bag] that I use while motorbiking. Inside is generally a 638 with a couple of 'speed loaders'
compass, maps, bottle water, and typical junk.

What would I have done?

Barging about cause's fear, anxiety, and uncertainty; our 'officers' that work many of these places, could want to "Jump To" and raise the blood pressure even more.

As you were [caught completely off guard] uh-oh factor. Hindsight being 20-20.

What would I have done?

a point to ponder


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## Ram Rod (Jan 16, 2008)

They really have no right to search your person, or personal belongings. Sometimes we are all caught off guard, so don't feel badly about what happened. Embarassment? I'd actually think about filing a civil lawsuit against the store. (that's just me though) If they were adamant about searching my personal belongings---they can call law-enforcement, and I'd let them do that--and detain me at my regular daily work wages per hour. You are to remain concealed when carrying--and that's the law--someone made you violate the law? I don't think so. Sorry---this just starting to infuriate me that they would get by with this. Wishing you luck, and being more prepared next time this might happen. But I'm serious about the lawsuit thing. I'll apologize if I have offended anyone, and hve no intention of hurting anyone's feelings.


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## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

You are not legally obligated to show them anything in your personal things: wife's purse, backpack, coat, anything. If you refuse, they can't do anything about it. Even if I wasn't carrying, I wouldn't let them go through my things like I was a criminal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the Police can even do that without a warrant or you've already been arrested.

Next time - if there is one - don't let them look. If they give you a hard time either talk to a manager or just take your things and leave. If the manager gives you a hard time, tell them you want refunded for everything, give them the cart back, and tell them they won't have to 'worry' about seeing you in their store anymore.


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## 3Reds (Feb 12, 2007)

This is good information to know. I don't know what I would have done but I suspect I would have shown my bag and that would not have been a good thing. Thank you for all of the information.

3reds


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## gt1911 (Jan 7, 2008)

I totally agree with handled the situation beautifully...some people just act like guns are from hell...lol


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*ponder*

NC law require you to inform an Officer at the beginning with ID and permit.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

I believe the man that said "Get over it Ladies" had the best response. I don't intend to act or feel like a kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar just because someone sees my weapon. We have a right to carry and if more people are made to understand that so much the better.

I would complain to Management about the search and probably would not have submitted to it without some argument. We need to be careful how we argue though so we dont escalate things to a danger point.

:smt1099


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

Glad you posted this SL. I'm sure you've brought to light a situation that many haven't considered, and are now better prepared for.


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## bruce333 (Sep 1, 2006)

neophyte said:


> NC law require you to inform an Officer at the beginning with ID and permit.


Doesn't apply here as She wasn't approached by a LEO.

You did well for being caught off guard.


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

It really couldn't have gone better. If you wanted to avoid showing the door girl your gun your only option was to refused to be searched except by a police officer, and wait for the cops. In my area, the Sam's clubs have off-duty uniformed officers; if present at the time, one of those is good enough. Explain the situation to the officer ONLY while giving him your carry and driver licenses, let the OFFICER look through your bag, and he'll hand it back and wave you through.

Go back to the store, conceal as always, and if you meet the same door girl then don't act like it's a big deal. If management confronts you and tells you you're not welcome while carrying then turn in your card and go somewhere else for your big-box shopping.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*refer*

bruce333: Sir; check "Spartan's" thought: paraphrased of course: 
don't have to show officer. Show what?
I realized 'SuckLeads' position; officer not involved

Law requires you inform Officer at the beginning: Officer may ask for 'said' weapon; [becomes another issue] after conversation, return 'said' weapon.

I don't profess knowing what "I" would have done; and still don't know.
'SuckLead' did quite well.

It does cause; a whole new matter; for thinking


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## gmaske (Jan 7, 2008)

The only thing you could have done diffrently was to:
A) show her the CCP and tell her to read it first 
B) Step aside of the line and ask to speak to a manager and do A

the girl at the door was most likely stepping beyond her athority for sure.
If a store thinks you've been taking stuff they usually will confront you at the door with a member of management and a secutity officer of some sort and the police are usually already on the way.
Actually you handled it pretty good but I'll bet you never thought through any of the scenarios like this. If you're gonna carry you need to be ready to deal with stuff like this BEFORE it happens.

The story is actually pretty funny in parts the way diffrent people responded. I'll bet that girl will never pull that stunt again if she keeps her job.

AND GIRL
GOOD FOR YOU.....I"M GLAD YOUR PACKIN ONE


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Yeah, this young lady wasn't LEO or security. It is sort of like the greeter at Walmart. I haven't seen this young lady before, but that doesn't say anything since I only go in the store maybe once every three to six months. I usually only go there for gas and supplies for my care packages. It sort of ticked me off after the fact because who the heck is she that I need to show my bag to and also state that I have a CCL to? A lot of stores in this state have someone who checks your receipt against your items, but this was most definetly a first. 

I sent an email to the main office and got no response. I will be dropping by said store tomorrow to speak with management. Thanks, guys.

And gmaske, me and my Glock have been inseperable since I brought him home. I only leave him home when I go out to dinner with my parents, as the place serves alcohol. Otherwise, I'm armed.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Sounds like that girl got on a f'ing power trip. A lot of people, both guys and girls (and usually young ones) who don't have a lot of authority in their personal lives think having a job gives them the right to push people around while at their place of occupation. I'm only 21 (22 in 4 days, woo!), but I've seen it plenty. It's natural for someone to be more assertive in their place of business, but getting on a power trip and pushing others around is unnecessary, especially if it infringes on their legal rights.

If it had been me (instead, her asking me to lift up my shirt and let her check all my pockets), I would've gone ape sh*t. Not only would she be forcing me to break the law by displaying my "concealed" weapon, she would give herself and others the opportunity to grab my handgun. Unless I personally hand my Walther to someone to hold (at my apartment, not in public), nobody is to even try to touch it. And by forcing you to open your bag and display the Glock, she was literally putting herself in a position to take it from you, whether intentional or not. That's some BS...the sensible thing to do would be complain to management, and at least get the broad fired. Hopefully they'll give you some store credit for compensation as well. The not-so-sensible thing to do would be to jump her ass in the parking lot at night and kick the crap out of her, but then again that's not too sensible and you'd get in trouble probably. :mrgreen: On a serious note, I bet if you see her out in public and she recognizes you, she'll run like hell. Most girls are scared of women strapped with Glocks. :smt023


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## crazz (Jan 21, 2008)

*That's rediculous*

If they hire somebody to stop people at the door and give them the authority to search and detain people, they had better train them on what they can legally do and especially NOT do and ofcourse make them aware of CCW laws. Ultimately it's the store owners responsibility.

If it's a decent company, you should be compensated for your trouble. They made a mistake, not you.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

I think you handled the situation quite well. I'm in that BJ's about once a week, and since I have at least one of the kids with me, I usually have my bag. Some days the bag has my XD, other days it's on the hip, but there's usually a mag or two, plus other goodies in the bag. When I first noticed their sign stating that all bags, purses, and briefcases will be searched, I thought initially it was bags, briefcases and purses that were just purchased there would be searched to make sure you didn't stuff anything extra into them. But now ..... :smt017 

I have never been stopped or asked to open my bag. I initially thought that if I was stopped, I would just ask to see the manager, but now I think I would politely tell the door "guard" that unless they are a LEO, they are not, under any circumstances, searching my property nor detaining me, and if the manager would like to take it up with me, I will be in the parking lot loading my van and would be more than happy to discuss their policy at that time.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Now I'm not sure what they are doing. BJ's corporate office sent me a reply stating they would be sending the complaint on to the store and that they do not condone random bag searches at the door without cause. And I went in today to deal with the Verizon they have in there and no one asked to search the bag, the same one I had in there previously (Glock still inside). It may have been a fluke.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*follow up*

Ma'am; do follow up. A learning experience for me.

Being a little hard headed; I still am unsure what I would have done.
Your experience has opened my ?eyes?


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## stormbringerr (May 22, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> No way in the world would I let some minimum-wage stranger go through my personal stuff. I would let her look in my cart and check off the receipt, like they always do at the warehouse stores, but the search stops there. I wouldn't let them treat me like a criminal for the "privilege" of shopping in their store.
> 
> I would have refused the search and walked right on past her. What can she do? Physically detain me? Nope, not without suspicion of shoplifting. Call the cops? Fine. I'd be gone before they arrived anyway, if they even bothered to show up.
> 
> No way in hell would I go back, and I would let the management know why.


i agree w/mike for the most part. at least refuse until they call a manager and make him explain why this is happening.if you dont like his reasons tell him you will only let an LEO search your bag.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm wondering why exactly the girl insisted on going through the purse. Unless she suspected shoplifting, what would her reason be?


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## Dicktater (Jan 16, 2008)

I had an experience like that at the local KMart,although I wasn't armed I had made a purchase in the back of the store in the sporting goods dept.
You could pay there without going to the front check out lanes.
I bought about $180.00 bucks worth of stuff. As I was walking out they have those things you walk through that detects those little tags they remove when you buy something. Well this happened in a large mall here as I left the store,I was about a hundred feet from the store this little pimple faced kid and a young girl stopped me and asked to go through all my stuff and check my reciept. No problem....there were two little old ladies sitting at the benches where these two were going thru the stuff.
They were looking at me like I was a Piece of crap shoplifter. When the kids had their fun I took everything I had bought asked to see the manager told them I was returning EVERYTHING I just bought and why.

..............Never Been Back To KMart.....................


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I got some flak at Wally World one night. I wanted to get some .22LR mini-mags for shooting the next day and the clerk in the gun department gave me a pretty hard time about it. They got in my face about why I wanted to buy them so late, and after I explained that I was getting them for the range for the next day, they informed me that you can't buy bullets "after hours," which meant after 10pm. They were really laying it on that they thought I was gonna go cap someone. Pretty annoying if you ask me.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Ithey informed me that you can't buy bullets "after hours," which meant after 10pm.


That's one I've never heard before. If they don't want to sell ammo "after hours," they should close that section of the store. Either way, do they think you go homicidal maniac at night but are a fine, upstanding citizen during the day?! If you're crazy at night, chances are you are crazy during the day, right?

Or maybe they thought you were a lazy werewolf?


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## scorpiusdeus (Feb 7, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> No way in the world would I let some minimum-wage stranger go through my personal stuff. I would let her look in my cart and check off the receipt, like they always do at the warehouse stores, but the search stops there. I wouldn't let them treat me like a criminal for the "privilege" of shopping in their store.
> 
> I would have refused the search and walked right on past her. What can she do? Physically detain me? Nope, not without suspicion of shoplifting. Call the cops? Fine. I'd be gone before they arrived anyway, if they even bothered to show up.
> 
> No way in hell would I go back, and I would let the management know why.


+1000. I'm not sure what state you live in but some state laws protect you from this.

What if you had naked pictures of your boyfriend/husband, or birth control pills or something personal like that. HELL NO!!!

I don't even allow them to check my receipt. It's insulting and there is no PC for it.


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## scorpiusdeus (Feb 7, 2007)

SuckLead said:


> Yeah, I was very much caught off guard, I'll admit it, and I had no idea what to do. They have a sign that states they are going to check all bags you have on you, but this is the first time in the six years I've been going there that they actually did it.


I have a sign that says Parking for Sig Owners Only, but I doubt it's legally enforceable. They might just be bluffing. Check your state laws to see what your rights are. Knowledge is power.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

SuckLead said:


> That's one I've never heard before. If they don't want to sell ammo "after hours," they should close that section of the store. Either way, do they think you go homicidal maniac at night but are a fine, upstanding citizen during the day?! If you're crazy at night, chances are you are crazy during the day, right?
> 
> Or maybe they thought you were a lazy werewolf?


Yeah, I mean that goes without saying. But that section of the store also sells camping, fishing, and other outdoor gear. Bullets are behind the counter. The thought that ran through my head as I was walking away was, "Damn, do those idiots think if I was about to go on a shooting rampage, I'd be using a .22?"


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Yeah, I mean that goes without saying. But that section of the store also sells camping, fishing, and other outdoor gear. Bullets are behind the counter. The thought that ran through my head as I was walking away was, "Damn, do those idiots think if I was about to go on a shooting rampage, I'd be using a .22?"


Yeah, but with Walmart, you could also argue, who really needs to buy clothes that late at night? Or a tent? Or a grill? Or some chachki? I just hate that place. :smt082


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

SuckLead said:


> Yeah, but with Walmart, you could also argue, who really needs to buy clothes that late at night? Or a tent? Or a grill? Or some chachki? I just hate that place. :smt082


Some people shop late at night. Some go there to hang out, and some go to try to find dates. I highly recommend to all that you don't go after midnight trying to pick someone up. That's when all the goons come out.


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## neophyte (Aug 13, 2007)

*educate*

Got my answer: *'get me a manager' now. *

Before now I didn't know what "I would do" reading each of your postings; 
The 'gent' with his K-Mart deal; sealed the deal.

My nature is decency first. When I feel violated; situation 
becomes something entirely different. The moment becomes a time, for educating or being educated.


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

You should NEVER allow anyone from a store to search you. Especially if you have a concealed gun. 

Tell them NO. And keep walking. They cannot detain you without assaulting you.

Ask them to call the police if they really want to make a point of it. Tell them that you WILL NOT be searched by anyone until there is a police officer present to witness the search.

This way, you tell the officer about the concealed gun before the store clerk learns about it. It also keeps them from freaking out like they did, and it gives you a credible witness that you did not POINT or threaten anyone with that gun.

So my advice...in the future...do NOT submit to any searches...and if they make a big stink over it...call the police.

NEVER tell them that you have a gun on you. Do not tell them, do not tell management either. Only communicate this with the officer on the scene.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

While I wasn't carrying while in Disneyland, FL years ago, I did notice them checking bags of everyone entering. I believe that they have a "no firearms" rule there, but I'm not sure.

I went to a circus with my kids once where they were asking everyone to open up thier coats. I think they were looking for food actually, since they were looking at kids jackets too. I carry too far back (4:00) to notice for a casual peek in the jacket, but I didn't expect it either.


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## falshman70 (Jul 13, 2006)

Sounds like you handled this as well as can be expected. In the future, I think it's always better to carry on your body (rather than in a backpack). Then this doesn't become an issue.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

falshman70 said:


> Sounds like you handled this as well as can be expected. In the future, I think it's always better to carry on your body (rather than in a backpack). Then this doesn't become an issue.


I will once I lay hands on a trustworthy concealed carry gun. What I had in the bag was a Glock 21.


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## rjack1177 (Jan 25, 2008)

bangbang said:


> You should NEVER allow anyone from a store to search you. Especially if you have a concealed gun.
> 
> Tell them NO. And keep walking. They cannot detain you without assaulting you.
> 
> ...


Good advice! I just got my CCW. Very Good Info


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Yeah, and if she pulls a 9" bowie knife out of her pocket and says, "if you don't show me your bag, I'll cut you," then wax her. :anim_lol:


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## bangbang (Jan 18, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Yeah, and if she pulls a 9" bowie knife out of her pocket and says, "if you don't show me your bag, I'll cut you," then wax her. :anim_lol:


I would have to call corporate if that happened...


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

bangbang said:


> You should NEVER allow anyone from a store to search you. Especially if you have a concealed gun.
> 
> Tell them NO. And keep walking. They cannot detain you without assaulting you.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything but this:



> Tell them NO. And keep walking. They cannot detain you without assaulting you.


In truth, they CAN detain you if they have probable cause to believe you've shoplifted. In Texas, force and deadly force are justifiable when protecting property from unlawful damage or theft, *and to recover property*. If you try to walk away after either a store employee has seen you shoplift or the inventory control sensors go off, store employees can use any means necessary, as agents of their employer, to detain you.

However, they CANNOT search you unless you give consent. The exception is member's clubs; if you had to sign an agreement to get in and there's a doorman checking baskets on the way out, refusal to be searched is a violation of your member agreement and they could give you the bum's rush if they wanted to.

If a store employee searches you without any prior consent, OR you actually haven't shoplifted and have to wait to prove it, you have every right to file a lawsuit for unlawful imprisonment and unreasonable search/seizure. Unless they totally ruined your day, however, I think it would be more than sufficient after you have proven your innocence to call for the general manager, express your extreme displeasure at being treated like a common criminal, and have the general manager personally process your return of everything you had just bought from them, while informing him you will not shop at his store anymore and will tell anyone who asks exactly what you think of their customer service.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Liko81 said:


> In truth, they CAN detain you if they have probable cause to believe you've shoplifted. In Texas, force and deadly force are justifiable when protecting property from unlawful damage or theft, *and to recover property*. If you try to walk away after either a store employee has seen you shoplift or the inventory control sensors go off, store employees can use any means necessary, as agents of their employer, to detain you.


Wow! Glad I live in a state where the use of deadly force to protect property is prohibited. I'd hate to be walking out of a store, unknowingly being called by the clerk because he thought I stole something, and get shot because I was hard of hearing/on the phone/plugged into MP3/etc. Is there a monetary minimum the property has to be valued at or can you legally be killed over something as trivial as a stolen bottle of Mt. Dew?


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

Todd said:


> Wow! Glad I live in a state where the use of deadly force to protect property is prohibited. I'd hate to be walking out of a store, unknowingly being called by the clerk because he thought I stole something, and get shot because I was hard of hearing/on the phone/plugged into MP3/etc. Is there a monetary minimum the property has to be valued at or can you legally be killed over something as trivial as a stolen bottle of Mt. Dew?


It's not quite that bad. You as the actor must believe the use of deadly force is the only way available to recover or protect property that wouldn't result in serious injury to you, and the property can't have been pickpocketed or shoplifted; it must have been taken by invasive and/or violent means. I'll quote the statute: the use of deadly force to protect property is justified....



> *when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
> deadly force is immediately necessary*: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to *prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing *burglary, *robbery*, aggravated robbery, or *theft during the nighttime* *from escaping with the property*; and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
> another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


If the situation doesn't meet those requirements, deadly force is not justifiable. That doesn't mean the use of force other than deadly force to prevent shoplifting is illegal. Here's that statute:



> A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or *tangible,
> movable property *by another is justified in using force against the
> other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
> is immediately necessary to reenter the land or *recover the
> ...


If someone shoplifts an item, and you as an authorized agent of the owner of the store notice this and give pursuit, you can use force to recover the property. This includes forcible restraint. But no, you can't shoot someone in Texas for walking out with a bottle of soda without paying. Interestingly, though, it DOES allow a clerk in a convenience store who has been held up to shoot the robber while he is fleeing, which is a HUGE no-no in many other states. Deadly force used while in pursuit of a person who has robbed you at gunpoint is justified; it's aggravated robbery, the guy's running away so if there's no-one else in front of him there's no other option, and he has a gun so you fighting with him is almost certainly going to get you killed. Not sure anyone's tested that particular situation yet though. The Pasadena TX case concerns deadly force in defense of a third party's property, which on top of all that additionally requires express consent, a close familial relationship or apparent authority to act for that third person.


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## USAFgsm (Dec 18, 2006)

I'm not entirely sure what they did was legal.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Liko81 said:


> In Texas, force and deadly force are justifiable when protecting property from unlawful damage or theft, *and to recover property*. If you try to walk away after either a store employee has seen you shoplift or the inventory control sensors go off, store employees can use any means necessary, as agents of their employer, to detain you.


In NC you are not allowed to defend your property. You are only allowed to defend yourself and others, so by word of law if you see someone walking out with a TV you can't use deadly force unless they go to throw the TV at you.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

SuckLead said:


> In NC you are not allowed to defend your property. You are only allowed to defend yourself and others, so by word of law if you see someone walking out with a TV you can't use deadly force unless they go to throw the TV at you.


That's no fun. In Kentucky if someone unlawfully enters your dwelling, you can do what you want. I'm not advocating tying them up and shooting them in the crotch 20 times, but once someone breaks and enters, they lose their rights. Same goes for an occupied vehicle...if you're in your car and someone tries to enter it, same rules go. What I have a problem with is that if you walk out to your car one night and someone has/is vandalizing it, or is in the process of stealing stuff out of it, there's not a whole lot you can do. I need to talk to a few officers about that, 'cause if I walk out to my car one night and there are a bunch of drunk idiots knocking windows out and kicking the panels in, I'll be pretty tempted to take matters into my own hands. I'm planning on getting a 600-750cc crotch rocket this summer, and PLENTY of drunk college kids around here think it's super cute to go push a bike on its side and jump on it. It's happened to a lot of people I know, and if I can't use some kind of physical force, what can I do? Ask them to kindly stand and wait until the police arrive? I'm not really sure what compels people to think they have the right to vandalize property other than their own when they drink, but if they're smart, they'll stay away from my car, and stay away from my bike if and when I get one.


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## CardRED (Jan 21, 2008)

I am glad this was posted, its a situation that I wouldn't have thought about prior to it actually happening. I now know exactly what I will do should the situation ever arise. 

Dicktater, loved your kmart story, btw.

And as far as Wal-mart, I've encountered the "No ammo after 10pm" rule also. But, I did know that it was a rule and figured I would give it a shot anyway. Come to think of it, the bigger problem is getting helped at Wal-Mart after 10pm PERIOD, much less to buy ammunition.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I just don't let people put their hands on me unless they have a reason to, and on the grounds they have legal authority to.


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## XD_Hokie (Dec 29, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> TPLENTY of drunk college kids around here think it's super cute to go push a bike on its side and jump on it. It's happened to a lot of people I know, and if I can't use some kind of physical force, what can I do? Ask them to kindly stand and wait until the police arrive? *I'm not really sure what compels people to think they have the right to vandalize property *other than their own when they drink, but if they're smart, they'll stay away from my car, and stay away from my bike if and when I get one.


Well, I would say since they are drunk there does not take much to compel them other than the alcohol mixed with their college age to mess with other people's stuff. But, as to your statement about "if they are smart, they'll stay away from my car ..". *Be careful*, the law clearly values a drunk college student's life (or any other life) over your property in most places. I know it is a hassle, especially when you work to pay for it and insure it and will have to deal with the paperwork and inconvenience if they mess up your car or motorcycle. But, what our laws hope is that young people, and drunks, will grow up some day contribute to our society in a positive way, or should at least have the chance to.

Much of what I have begun to understand after some years on the earth now, and more so with two boys around that age, and even more so in the past couple years with my concealed carry training, is *restraint is the key*. You need to be restrained in your thinking of this possible event, as your thoughts may carry over into your actions. Only use the lethal force or even show it when you will use it and hopefully know you are legally justified in doing so. The affect of shooting someone and/or killing someone will be in your heart and mind the rest of your life, even more so over a car or motorcycle, and may change your life forever in may ways. Mellow, and re-think what you may do in this case should it occur.

I know this is a different area of thought than the original start of this thread, but this is another case of being prepared with what you will do with the personal defense firearm you have in a certain situation.

BE SAFE!!


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

My thoughts exactly...it's just hard being the same age as a lot of students that can't control themselves with their alcohol. I could go with the "if they can't control themselves, neither should I," but two wrongs don't make a right. It's tough, but part of carrying means being responsible no matter what the circumstances, and being held to a higher standard. I'm not at all saying that if someone takes a swing at my car, they deserve to die. We all make mistakes, some more than others. But it would sure be easy to pull a gun on someone in hopes to persuade them to stay there until the police arrived. Then again, it probably falls under the guidelines for a felony, at which point I'd be in much deeper crap than the drunk.


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

You did good for being taken by surprise. The only thing I may add is I probably would have pulled out my permit and explained that I was carrying before I showed my weapon. It may take much of the shock away. I did that with a police officer and it went smooth.

Then remind them of this.

The Bill of Rights:

_Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized._


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## polyguy (May 4, 2007)

tnoisaw said:


> You did good for being taken by surprise. The only thing I may add is I probably would have pulled out my permit and explained that I was carrying before I showed my weapon. It may take much of the shock away. I did that with a police officer and it went smooth.
> 
> Then remind them of this.
> 
> ...


I don't know about the flashing the permit part man. ONLY when questioned by/with LEOs is when you want to flash your permit. That probably would have just made matters far worse with that employee. 
--------------------------------------------------
SuckLead,
I would have totally ignored that request & flashed my receipt to her, let her circle or whatever she does, and proceeded to my vehicle and left.

Don't go back to that store. Go to another one. I mean, just to keep that can of worms closed ya know. But now you already know. Next time...don't show those untrained non LE, nothing but your receipt.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

The Bill of Rights, including Amendment IV, is a restraint on government, not private entities like BJ's Wholesale Club, so I don't think that's the answer. For example, sporting venues are allowed to search people voluntarily coming into the venue, and this is not deemed unconstitutional. A private company can prohibit firearms on its property without violating Amendment Two. Handgunforum.net is under no obligation to respect "freedom of speech" and Amendment One in the same way the government is.

SuckLead was under no obligation to consent to a search by a private entity who lacked the legal authority to conduct such a search, but it wasn't directly because of Amendment IV, at least as I understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

Well just as a point of discussion then, perhaps we are consenting to a search by entering a store that notifies us that packages (purses?) are subject to search. Is this a "negative consent" situation?


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## Liko81 (Nov 21, 2007)

tnoisaw said:


> You did good for being taken by surprise. The only thing I may add is I probably would have pulled out my permit and explained that I was carrying before I showed my weapon. It may take much of the shock away. I did that with a police officer and it went smooth.
> 
> Then remind them of this.
> 
> ...


That's a limitation on _government_. It has been de facto extended to businesses and NGOs, because the results of a search without cause or consent cannot be used in court, whether it's a police officer searching you or the little old lady who checks receipts. That doesn't mean they can't sanction you within the terms of a business relationship; they can terminate your membership, bar you from entry, and even sue for damages (the woman behind the OP during the search is going to be a little more paranoid than before, and may shop somewhere else and tell others to do so as well). It's all in your membership agreement; you consent, by shopping at the store, to be searched in any manner deemed necessary by the store through its agents. Failure to consent is cause for termination of your membership.


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## Old Padawan (Mar 16, 2007)

This is a stupid policy. Just say no. A little known fact (in Arizona) is that once you have paid for the merchandise they have NO right to search. The only exception is a “warehouse club”. If you need a membership to shop there you have probably signed that right away for the privilege.

One you pay for it, it belongs to you and not them. They as private citizen have no right to search you or your belongings. They can detain you, and hold you for the police (citizens arrest). If they do so without reasonable cause, they are liable and probably guilty of either kidnapping or false arrest.

I have gotten in a couple of polite arguments with Best Buy regarding this (I refused the search and kept walking) regarding this. On one occasion the manager followed me out of the store, on the other the off duty police officer being employed as a security guard stopped the person from following me.

This is a text book example of unreasonable search. They don’t suspect you of anything, they are just searching you and YOUR belonging because you are there.


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## Murdoch (Aug 20, 2007)

I started to reply with something along the lines of "quietly inform the clerck that you are a permit holder and are carrying, so as not so get the shocked reaction when she sees the gun..."

That's when my brain said "wait, what?"

No way am I letting some high school smart*** rifle through my belongings. My shopping bags, ok...my self or my wife's purse? Nope. I'll politely ask why and if they insist ask for a manager.

I worked at a video game store in college...we were almost powerless against thieves. We really couldn't do anything to stop them. Then again, all the game cases on the racks are empty, so we had several entertaining incidents where we watched some idiot kid run out of the store with a handful of games, get out in the lot and discover they were empty, and turn around and start cussing us out, as we were now all gathered at the windows laughing hysterically. But I digress....

Anyway, I'd say given your surprise at being searched, I'd say you handled it well.

Obviously, the exception would be the other way around...If someone searches you going IN to some venue...like at a concert or sporting event...well, you have a choice whether you go in or not.


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## Occram (Dec 21, 2007)

You are not legally obligated to surrender your personal belongings in a store. If they have a problem with you carrying a package or bag of any kind they need to tell you before you walk into the store with it.

I worked as a manager for Best Buy for three years and since we dealt with theft a lot there, I took it upon myself to learn about search and seizure laws pertaining to private property and businesses.

The business can "ask" to look in your bag and if you allow them, you are surrendering your rights. It's the same with the police searching your vehicle during a traffic stop. If you are asked to open your purse or backpack, you can politely say "are you detaining me for shoplifting?" or "call the police if you want to search me".

If I were in your situation and had a firearm on me I probably would have handled it in the manner I just described.


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## longtooth (Feb 24, 2008)

Having never thought about it before, I think you did allright as long as you learned from it & have a plan for next time.
Every state is different.
Texas, I will always refuse to be searched in any way by a story employee of any title. They are not LEO & I have no idea they have any hand gun training. I am strong willed enough to say no you may not & if you want to call the police I will gladly do that for you. Now I want to see your supervisor & I want to see them NOW please.:smt023:smt1099


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Looks like a missed opportunity for litigious enrichment to me...:smt033


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## rccola712 (Aug 26, 2008)

great reactions as far as i can tell, my favorite is the guy inline behind you, saying calm down ladies, good to see that someone doesnt freak out whenever someone mentions the word gun!


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## Patient_Zero (Mar 14, 2008)

Being one of those kids that has to make a smart remark about everything, two things come to mind.
1. No matter how hard you train to remain on guard and aware, you will at some point be caught off guard by a teenage girl in a walmart vest.
2. I will pay cash for the surveillance tape that shows the look on the walmart greeters face.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Patient_Zero said:


> 2. I will pay cash for the surveillance tape that shows the look on the walmart greeters face.


Oh, it was priceless! I wish I could have a copy of it, too! :anim_lol:


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