# Target idea...



## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

While it's nice to put quarter sized groupings at seven yards, I remember someone on HGF pointing out that carefully aiming at a target bullseye doesn't do much to prepare you for a realistic self-defense scenario. A man-sized target, and two in the chest, one in the head. Being that a lot of times it's difficult to see exactly where the bullets are hitting the target without actually bringing it back and looking at it up close, what about making a target that makes it easy to identify strike points after each set of shots? I was thinking maybe putting fluorescent posterboard behind the target paper would highlight the holes a bit better? Odds are with as heavy as posterboard is, the bullet would make a clean hole through it, but cause the thin target paper to tear, which would display the posterboard inside the hole. Any takers?


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## dallaswood43 (Jan 13, 2008)

there are some targets that sportsman's warehouse sells that are basically like that. they are black and depending on which ring of the target you hit it appears in a bright neon color that you can supposedly see from shooting distance.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Sweet...they'd be especially nice for patterning my shotgun when I get it.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> While it's nice to put quarter sized groupings at seven yards, I remember someone on HGF pointing out that carefully aiming at a target bullseye doesn't do much to prepare you for a realistic self-defense scenario. A man-sized target, and two in the chest, one in the head. Being that a lot of times it's difficult to see exactly where the bullets are hitting the target without actually bringing it back and looking at it up close, what about making a target that makes it easy to identify strike points after each set of shots? I was thinking maybe putting fluorescent posterboard behind the target paper would highlight the holes a bit better? Odds are with as heavy as posterboard is, the bullet would make a clean hole through it, but cause the thin target paper to tear, which would display the posterboard inside the hole. Any takers?


Actually, many defensive instructors discourage looking for holes in the target. In real life (unlike the movies), you may not be able to see holes, huge globs of blood/splatter, bodies flying backwards, or any other evidence of a hit on the target. Stopping to look for holes may even give the OTHER guy a chance to get in a few hits of his own! Best to keep shooting until the target is stopped, you see a need to change to plan "B", or you run out of ammo.

In range-based defensive shooting scenarios I've participated in, we've dressed silhouette targets in ratty old T-shirts, sweatshirts, and other clothing to hide the location of the hits. This forces you to concentrate on the fundamentals, aim properly for center-of-mass (not some "scoring ring") and trust your shooting skills. If you do it by-the-book, the hits will be there.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

More effective listening for ping of steel target at an outdoor range. Its pretty obvious when you make a hit. 

In real life if all the bullets you put in a BG makes a single quarter-sized hole, you have to defend against a wrongful death suit from his relatives that you could have wounded instead of killing him. IE. If you are good enough to pack 10rds of .40cal into his third eye in low light, you could have shot out his arm or leg.

Not fair, but the real world is all about avoiding giving a lawyer an excuse to make a buck. You might win the suit but lose out in legal fees and wasted time.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Shoot-n-See targets will do what you want.

I agree with *DJ*, though, on defensive training. When we shoot out in the desert, we do scenarios with cardboard targets clad in old t-shirts.

One of Jeff Cooper's students put two .45 rounds in a single hole on a bad guy. No charges, no lawsuits, no problems - except for a befuddled coroner.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

That makes sense, but for training purposes, I'd like to evaluate where my hits are AFTER I've made the two in the chest, one in the head (making sure I'm hitting the where I'm aiming). I think it would be more of an evaluation of my shot placement to see if I needed to change anything.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Don't get too locked into Mozambiques. They suck if you face multiple opponents.


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## dallaswood43 (Jan 13, 2008)

*mozambique*

i've watched some videos of mozambique drills and it seems like the people want to shoot the 3 shots as quickly as possible. maybe i'm crazy but it's also called a failure to stop drill and i don't really know how you can tell if the first shots were sufficient if your goal is to put the third shot in the head as quickly as possible. i think the targets we're discussing here interest me for sport shooting more than for defense training.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Let's say you did have multiple targets. Say there were two...the one closest was five feet away and was about to knife you, and the second was 25 feet away, but was pointing a handgun at you. Who would you make your primary target, and why? There are plenty of situational factors that could influence this I'm sure.

If I could step out of the gunman's sight (i.e. behind a wall), I would take out the guy with the knife as he's the most immediate threat. Or if I could move to place him in between me and gunman, the same. What if you couldn't move yourself out of the gunman's sight? Would you still take out the guy closest to you, or aim for the gunman?


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## BeefyBeefo (Jan 30, 2008)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Would you still take out the guy closest to you, or aim for the gunman?


I may be wrong, but if that were the situation, I would personally take out the guys closest to me that was about to stab me and then try to find cover somehow, while possibly taking a shot. I don't know if that would be the correct way to go about it, but that's probably what I would do.

-Jeff-


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## milquetoast (Nov 25, 2006)

Yeah, you don't want to get into the habit of shooting, then lowering the gun and looking at the target.

I carry a little 8X monocular in my shooting bag, in case I want to check holes. I think of it as a pocket-sized spotting scope.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Try to move so that the knife man is between you and the pistol guy (it's called stacking). Flatten the knife guy then engage pistol man.

If you have a guy trying to stick you at five feet and a guy shooting at you at 25, you are in for a fun ride.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> Try to move so that the knife man is between you and the pistol guy (it's called stacking). Flatten the knife guy then engage pistol man.
> 
> If you have a guy trying to stick you at five feet and a guy shooting at you at 25, you are in for a fun ride.


That was my thinking...he can't shoot you without shooting his buddy that brought a knife to a gunfight.

In the words of one of my friends who is an avid shooter, "If some idiot's trying to peg me with a handgun at 20 yards or more, I'll stand there and dance."


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

_Distance favors the trained gunfighter._ - Mas Ayoob


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*Slow down...*



fivehourfrenzy said:


> Let's say you did have multiple targets. Say there were two...the one closest was five feet away and was about to knife you, and the second was 25 feet away, but was pointing a handgun at you. Who would you make your primary target, and why? There are plenty of situational factors that could influence this I'm sure.
> If I could step out of the gunman's sight (i.e. behind a wall), I would take out the guy with the knife as he's the most immediate threat. Or if I could move to place him in between me and gunman, the same. What if you couldn't move yourself out of the gunman's sight? Would you still take out the guy closest to you, or aim for the gunman?


Slow down, man. Slow down. You're just beginning your journey toward self-defense competence with a pistol. This is no time to be thinking about Mozambique drills or multiple targets.
Make good hits on one target, firing at the center of mass and not looking for holes until your pistol is empty and holstered.
Take it a little bit at a time.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Slow down, man. Slow down. You're just beginning your journey toward self-defense competence with a pistol. This is no time to be thinking about Mozambique drills or multiple targets.
> Make good hits on one target, firing at the center of mass and not looking for holes until your pistol is empty and holstered.
> Take it a little bit at a time.


No, this was simply a hypothetical to get others' opinions. Point taken, but I'm starting at the beginning with a single target from a proper draw.


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## Landor (Jan 31, 2008)

The way I look at it, I could care less about a 2 inch group. I am more then happy with a 6 inch group. If this was IDPA or some other scoring sport I would feel different. Do this.. Take a 10 inch target and shoot one magazine through it. Now take that target and hold it on your chest. How many are good shots. All of them that hit the target. I am not talking about shooting like a wild man but as long as you can keep it in the area of your aim point you are doing good. That's why COM is a preferred shot. It is a big target.

My two cents anyways.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Landor said:


> The way I look at it, I could care less about a 2 inch group. I am more then happy with a 6 inch group.


Keep in mind that skill degradation under lethal stress is somewhere around 50-80% for most people. A person who can only fire a 6" group in calm range conditions is apt to miss completely under stress.


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## Landor (Jan 31, 2008)

Mike Barham said:


> Keep in mind that skill degradation under lethal stress is somewhere around 50-80% for most people. A person who can only fire a 6" group in calm range conditions is apt to miss completely under stress.


I guess I stated that wrong. The point was there is nothing wrong with a six in group. On a 10 inch target 6 inch groups work. If you want to put stress in to the picture then I can not argue that. Way to many variables and people are effected differently.


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## submoa (Dec 16, 2007)

Mike Barham said:


> Keep in mind that skill degradation under lethal stress is somewhere around 50-80% for most people.


+1

Remember.. its self-defense. Aiming for the larger COM target increases probability of a hit. Getting gut shot will increase the level of stress for the BG, and hopefully ruin his aim.... buying you time to get behind cover and reduce your level of stress.


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## dallaswood43 (Jan 13, 2008)

*case in point*

in ogden about 15 minutes north from where i live there was a man standing on his front porch firing a shotgun towards officers. 22 shots were fired in the man's direction with zero hits. i was also watching one of those "dangerous police chase" tv shows where a man and an officer exchanged handgun fire from probably 15 feet away. between the two of them i bet 10 shots were fired and i don't think there was a single hit. it's kind of a frightening prospect that in such dire circumstances a person could airball from such close range but then again i've never been in a life or death situation like that and i can only imagine the adrenaline and stress.


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## madman4049 (Mar 7, 2008)

What I do is order Picture targets from letargets.com and practice center mass. Good technique is good and makes you safer but my thinking is that if that situation I hope never happens actually happens I am not going to remember lots of little stances or techniques.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Yet another good reason for a quality laser on a defensive handgun.

Stressful shooting
Target-focused shooting
From behind cover shooting
Weak-handed shooting...

All much easier with a laser doing half the work.

No guessing. Put the dot on the target. Squeeze the trigger. Repeat.

JW


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## MediaSys (Mar 14, 2008)

Well Said!


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## PanaDP (Jul 20, 2007)

JeffWard said:


> Yet another good reason for a quality laser on a defensive handgun.
> 
> Stressful shooting
> Target-focused shooting
> ...


I'm no defensive shooting guru but I would make sure you mix that up with more traditional snap sight picture training. You can't see lasers outdoors in full sun very well.


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## Dsig1 (Dec 23, 2007)

Back to the origin of this thread, I like to shoot both ways during a range session. 
I'll set a series of general 10 ring type pistol targets and practice my slow firing, inclusive of breathing, hand position, trigger pull, line of sight...When finished, I use an 11 x 17 piece of paper tacked up vertically and put a paper plate above it, simulating head and chest of a BG. This is a more economical method as the silhouette targets in gun shops are a bit pricey. I then practice 2 to chest, 1 to head firing with my carry and HD guns, even pulling out the P3AT and running a mag through it (usually last since it's belt clip digs into my hand.)


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

JeffWard said:


> No guessing. Put the dot on the target. Squeeze the trigger. Repeat.


Yeah, but it's the "squeeze the trigger" part - a relatively fine dexterity act - that gives people the most trouble under stress. Actually indexing a gun at self-defense ranges isn't that big a trick. But most people mash the trigger, and that doesn't change with a laser.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> That was my thinking...he can't shoot you without shooting his buddy that brought a knife to a gunfight.
> 
> In the words of one of my friends who is an avid shooter, "If some idiot's trying to peg me with a handgun at 20 yards or more, I'll stand there and dance."


Beware of the shooter that practices at 25 or more hards..ya group in 3" or under there anything closer is just fish in a barrel:watching: The piece of paper and a plate thing is a great way of setting up a decent "man target" I practice a lot the same way when I have run out of those never got enough too dang expensive printed things. The guys I shoot with, we will set up targets from 10 to 30 yards and ya got to hit em 3 in each while moving from a start point to an end point about 20 yards to the right (or left depending). Hitting those guys while on the move makes things a lot more difficult but it simulates a real world situation a little more. Really there is noting you can practice that will get you ready for a live target. Being one that has been in that situation I can say all the practice on the world unless it's shooting back at you is just poking holes in stuff. It don't hurt but when your heart is pumping hard and you have the idea in your head that you can really be hurt changes things a lot.


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