# The realities of the street



## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Saw this link on another gun website and thought it was very worthwhile to post here. While there seems to be a couple of things the writer messed up, his advice is cogent, solid, and what I have long believed to be real.

Enjoy and please offer your comments, especially for those of you who have been in law enforcement and have served time on the streets.

Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Good read, very good points. It comes down to situational awareness and combat mindset. Those are the two most important things you can have in your arsenal. Gun, knife, whatever is an added bonus.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

That's a really good, instructive essay.
My take: Follow this man's advice. He knows whereof he speaks.

Thanks for posting the link!


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Sgt45 said:


> Good read, very good points. *It comes down to situational awareness and combat mindset.* Those are the two most important things you can have in your arsenal. Gun, knife, whatever is an added bonus.


Yes sir, that's something I have taught to many people over the years who were new to world of defensive firearms. Always a good idea to be armed and a firearm is the best arm you can have with you. Thank you for your comments.



Steve M1911A1 said:


> That's a really good, instructive essay.
> My take: Follow this man's advice. He knows whereof he speaks.
> 
> Thanks for posting the link!


Yes he does. There is one part where he says that as soon as an assailant displays a weapon, shoot him. I have told numerous people that this is what you need to do. Surprisingly, many people seem to believe TV and the movies and have asked, "Shouldn't you give a warning or tell them to drop their weapon?". They just don't understand the mindset of bad people.

Good people don't want to hurt others. Bad people have no compunction about doing this. That puts good people behind the curve when something extreme takes place. It is hesitation that gets a lot of good people injured or killed. Hard to teach this and I don't know how to go about doing that other than continued training and doing your best to develop a warrior mindset.


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## Bhoffman (Nov 10, 2013)

I especially like the part of "show them you have a gun" like sweeping your jacket back, up to and including "Draw Your weapon and hold it in your hand with the barrel pointing down." 

Many people are afraid of the law and "what if" everything to death. They are convinced that they can not touch their weapon unless there is a "deadly Threat".

Fortunately, Arizona has a provision in the law that allows "Defensive Display". That is what He is talking about. It isn't "brandishing"!


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

SouthernBoy said:


> Saw this link on another gun website and thought it was very worthwhile to post here. While there seems to be a couple of things the writer messed up, his advice is cogent, solid, and what I have long believed to be real.
> 
> Enjoy and please offer your comments, especially for those of you who have been in law enforcement and have served time on the streets.
> 
> Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM


The only part I disagree with is hanging around after taking the shot(s). I would definitely bug out.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

If it was a justified self defense shooting... why would you just leave? You would look very guilty to bystanders, the police and to a jury...

...Unless you plan on shooting someone without the justification of them being a deadly force threat (which you shouldn't).

From a LEO perspective... there are several things you should do right after you're involved in a self defense shooting.... leaving the scene is not one of them (unless you are still in danger).


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

TAPnRACK said:


> If it was a justified self defense shooting... why would you just leave? You would look very guilty to bystanders, the police and to a jury...
> 
> ...Unless you plan on shooting someone without the justification of them being a deadly force threat (which you shouldn't).
> 
> From a LEO perspective... there are several things you should do right after you're involved in a self defense shooting.... leaving the scene is not one of them (unless you are still in danger).


Absolutely true. If you have to fire your gun, DO NOT LEAVE THE SCENE.... unless danger remains. You could wind up in a world of trouble by doing this.


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## Sgt45 (Jun 8, 2012)

About the only time I would consider leaving is if a mob wasn't impressed with my desire to live BUT, while getting out of Dodge, I'd do my best to contact the police and tell them what happened, why I was running and where would they like to meet.


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## olroy (Aug 29, 2013)

> I especially like the part of "show them you have a gun" like sweeping your jacket back, up to and including "Draw Your weapon and hold it in your hand with the barrel pointing down."


I have experienced three different occasions when I firmly believe that violence was prevented by my indications that I was armed and ready to take immediate action. Once was in a courtroom (before the days of metal detectors at the door) while my partner was on the stand during a murder trial, once in a parking lot while being approached by numerous young toughs who had been sitting on my car, fanned out and tried to surround me, and once in a restaurant owned by a friend who had been held up twice. In all three instances, eye contact was made with the potential BGs, a deliberate move to my gun was made (WITHOUT DRAWING OR DISPLAYING THE WEAPON) and the situation dissolved. I was off-duty all three times, and I firmly believe that my readiness to take action avoided violence.


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## KeithC. (Dec 24, 2013)

Great resource! Thanks for the link. I really needed to read that.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

He describes the criminal element to a tee....... Also some great insight on how law abiding citizens need to act in a dire situation.......


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## Jayghf1978 (Jun 11, 2013)

I live in a very decent neighborhood where most days I forgoe locking my doors before I leave. I understood the peace of mind that came with the price tag when I bought the house, versus the troubles I may encounter in a poorer neighborhood.

Having lived in Brooklyn and Bronx periodically I have seen the worst of the worst, contributing to our desire for a decent area. Not just for me and my wife, also for our kids.

location, location, location. Your chance of running into issues can be greatly reduced, with the right amount of money.


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## KnotRight (Apr 3, 2013)

I like the quote The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

If you have to say that, they are too close...............


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

TAPnRACK said:


> If it was a justified self defense shooting... why would you just leave? You would look very guilty to bystanders, the police and to a jury...
> 
> ...Unless you plan on shooting someone without the justification of them being a deadly force threat (which you shouldn't).
> 
> From a LEO perspective... there are several things you should do right after you're involved in a self defense shooting.... leaving the scene is not one of them (unless you are still in danger).


Absolutely , you want to notify the police. You will be the plaintiff or complainant. Actually try to be the first to call ,verses the other party.
Maintain your composure from start to finish when police arrive. How many times have you heard , ok ,who made the call. 
Just curious, seeing I never , ever ,called the police.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Absolutely , you want to notify the police. *You will be the plaintiff or complainant.* Actually try to be the first to call ,verses the other party.
> Maintain your composure from start to finish when police arrive. How many times have you heard , ok ,who made the call.
> Just curious, seeing I never , ever ,called the police.


Don't know where you heard this. If there is a charge to be brought, it will more than likely be against the victim for manslaughter or homicide. It will then be up to a jury to decide whether or not it was justifiable or excusable.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> Don't know where you heard this. If there is a charge to be brought, it will more than likely be against the victim for manslaughter or homicide. It will then be up to a jury to decide whether or not it was justifiable or excusable.


I was just agreeing with TAPnRACK . If you leave the scene, and do not make the call, it does not look good.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> Yes sir, that's something I have taught to many people over the years who were new to world of defensive firearms. Always a good idea to be armed and a firearm is the best arm you can have with you. Thank you for your comments.
> 
> Yes he does. There is one part where he says that as soon as an assailant displays a weapon, shoot him. I have told numerous people that this is what you need to do. Surprisingly, many people seem to believe TV and the movies and have asked, "Shouldn't you give a warning or tell them to drop their weapon?". They just don't understand the mindset of bad people.
> 
> Good people don't want to hurt others. Bad people have no compunction about doing this. That puts good people behind the curve when something extreme takes place. It is hesitation that gets a lot of good people injured or killed. Hard to teach this and I don't know how to go about doing that other than continued training and doing your best to develop a warrior mindset.


What do you know about the streets ? Besides what you read in the newspapers etc.
How do qualify to teach anybody about the streets.
You open carry in the streets of your homestead , but open carry in the streets where the criminals are,,,somebody will target you, punk you out, and take your gun.
That is how the streets are.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> What do you know about the streets ? Besides what you read in the newspapers etc.
> How do qualify to teach anybody about the streets.
> You open carry in the streets of your homestead , but open carry in the streets where the criminals are,,,somebody will target you, punk you out, and take your gun.
> That is how the streets are.


Well pic, it's pretty hard for you to say this since you don't know me from Adam. I could just as easily ask you the same questions... but I won't because I don't know you or what your life has served up.

*"You open carry in the streets of your homestead , but open carry in the streets where the criminals are,,,somebody will target you, punk you out, and take your gun."*
Cites, please. I know of one in my state. This is not to say this can't happen, just to say that there does not appear to be a history of it going on everywhere.

And lastly, what are you getting all worked up for with the post you quoted? I see nothing in there I wrote that qualifies for you to take such issue.

??? What am I missing here??


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Where did you get homicide or manslaughter from in the text ? It was a self defense shooting. 
People do not always die in a self defense shooting.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Where did you get homicide or manslaughter from in the text ? It was a self defense shooting.
> People do not always die in a self defense shooting.


If you are involved in a self defense shooting and no charges are filed or it is no billed then the shooting would have been deemed to be justifiable, or excusable... there is a difference. If the perp lives and your actions are justifiable, or excusable, charges will almost certainly be brought against him. However, if the facts are not obvious and charges are brought against the victim then he can be expected to charged with either a homicide or perhaps manslaughter.

*"People do not always die in a self defense shooting."*
Right, most don't.

What I am curious about is why did you go off with my posting you quoted? I see nothing untoward or strange about what I wrote here;

_"Yes sir, that's something I have taught to many people over the years who were new to world of defensive firearms. Always a good idea to be armed and a firearm is the best arm you can have with you. Thank you for your comments.

Yes he does. There is one part where he says that as soon as an assailant displays a weapon, shoot him. I have told numerous people that this is what you need to do. Surprisingly, many people seem to believe TV and the movies and have asked, "Shouldn't you give a warning or tell them to drop their weapon?". They just don't understand the mindset of bad people.

Good people don't want to hurt others. Bad people have no compunction about doing this. That puts good people behind the curve when something extreme takes place. It is hesitation that gets a lot of good people injured or killed. Hard to teach this and I don't know how to go about doing that other than continued training and doing your best to develop a warrior mindset."_


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

One night late after midnight I was walking back to my car in a really big city in the brothel part of town (which could be anywhere in Las Vegas, right?!) and as I was crossing a big empty parking lot, two thuggish looking guys changed their direction and started coming right towards me, after one slapped the other on the arm.

So I changed my direction and started walking right at them.

My hands were inside my stadium jacket, where I was holding my favorite backup concealed revolver, and I made sure that my firmly clenched hand was far enough out of the pocket so that I could draw and shoot with it in an instant.

I had a stadium hat on also, with the visor worn correctly and not like a baseball catcher or hoodie in his crib.

I kept my head tilted down slightly so that they could not see my steely eyes, just like in a poker game.

As we 3 continued closing our distance, I made sure they were on my non-shooting side so that I could ward them off with my non-shooting hand/fist if I had too before drawing and gunning them down.

In all of an instant, we passed, at which time I quietly spun and began walking backwards. I then saw one of them turn his head and look back at me. Then he said something to the other guy, and they both kept walking and did not turn around again.

My body language must had said it all. And they got the message. Although I do not recommend the same thing for anyone else, it worked just fine for me. However after they targeted me, I was then actually gunning for them, literally.

Body language does not lie. They lived to rob another day.


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## AdamSmith (Dec 18, 2013)

pic said:


> Where did you get homicide or manslaughter from in the text ? It was a self defense shooting.
> People do not always die in a self defense shooting.


Indeed -- 80% of shooting victims survive.

That's way higher than knifing victims.

But if you finish the job and empty half your magazine in him then unlike the statistics he is unlikely to survive.

It takes an average of 2 to 3 hits to actually kill somebody.


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## Bhoffman (Nov 10, 2013)

AdamSmith said:


> Indeed -- 80% of shooting victims survive.
> 
> That's way higher than knifing victims.
> 
> ...


But, we are NOT shooting to kill! We shoot to stop/neutralize the threat to our lives. To do otherwise would be illegal in all 50 states.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Bhoffman said:


> But, we are NOT shooting to kill! We shoot to stop/neutralize the threat to our lives. To do otherwise would be illegal in all 50 states.


Not exactly but then again, you're probably using a little tongue-in-cheek here. I have even had an attorney tell me that under XYZ conditions, kill them. And he wasn't some garden variety contracts or estate attorney. He carries a firearm and is well versed in this as he specializes in defending people like us caught up in the law when using a firearm for our defense. Then here is this. We use ammunition which we hope through our research, is the best and most effective we can buy to stop an assailant. And we are taught to shoot until the threat is over. So if you have managed several hits with quality SD ammo into effective parts of the perp's body, there is a reasonably good chance you'll wind up killing them.

Of course I know what you mean with your statement. We don't want to SAY that we are trying to kill the per but in effect, we are doing just that. So perhaps it's better to say this. We want to stop the assailant(s) as quickly and effectively as possible. Whether or not he survives his wounds is inconsequential.


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## Bhoffman (Nov 10, 2013)

No, really! I mean it literally. I am only legally justified to use force to stop the threat. I keep shooting until the BG drops. At which point, I am no longer justified in using further force. Same applies to a BG that, after shooting once, turns and runs. I can not legally, nor would I, continue shooting. 

Yes, I use "Personal defense" ammo because it is proven to have better "Stopping Power" than FMJ and is safer for bystanders. But even if I hit the BG several times using that ammo, statistics bear out that the BG has a better than 50/50 chance of surviving.

As to what happens to the BG after I shot him and I have stopped the threat....that is in God's hands.


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## TAPnRACK (Jan 30, 2013)

^ Bhoffman's right... you shoot (use force) to stop the threat, anything beyond that may cause unwanted compilations to your claim of Self Defense.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Bhoffman said:


> No, really! I mean it literally. I am only legally justified to use force to stop the threat. I keep shooting until the BG drops. At which point, I am no longer justified in using further force. Same applies to a BG that, after shooting once, turns and runs. I can not legally, nor would I, continue shooting.
> 
> Yes, I use "Personal defense" ammo because it is proven to have better "Stopping Power" than FMJ and is safer for bystanders. But even if I hit the BG several times using that ammo, statistics bear out that the BG has a better than 50/50 chance of surviving.
> 
> As to what happens to the BG after I shot him and I have stopped the threat....that is in God's hands.


Yes we should all know what you say is true. As having better than a 50/50 chance of surviving, citizen defensive shootings tend to have a higher mortality rate than do police shootings.

But yes, what you say is correct.


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