# My 2 Cents



## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

_Kinda long. Please read the whole thing before you go ape on me. I wrote this after coming home from the gun show needing more than a few bandaids._

After a visit to the gun show today, I just want to say this. Gun people... CALM DOWN! No, seriously. I know we've got probably the most anti-gun president coming into office this week, but my God! You'd think the end of the world was coming! Is it really worth hurting someone or yourself to get your hands on a black rifle that someone is selling for about $1000 to $3000 more than it is actually worth? There was a guy there today with an FN SCAR that he was asking $8000 for. And I saw someone buy it! Come on, people! The gun retails for $2300 and some change!

The black rifles aren't going to be illegal come Tuesday. It has to go through a lot of stages before that can happen, so you are looking at 6 months to a year if he submits something on Tuesday (which is so unlikely it is ludacris) and puts the petal to the metal on it. If you never wanted one before now, why are you buying one all of a sudden? If you all calm down, prices will normalize again. Trust me, Obama's got a lot of other things to worry about before your black rifles. Sure, it pisses me off, too, as the owner of an AK47 and a gun rights fighter. Why not actually fight the government instead of going to the gun show and fighting each other? WE'RE STILL THE BOSSES AROUND HERE! Think like one! A guy at the show told me several people passed out at the gun show yesterday from panic attacks. He literally watched four people drop right in front of his table. IT ISN'T WORTH IT, PEOPLE!

Slow yourself down and think rationally. Obama's got to deal with the economy, first thing. He's got his head in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. And personally, I think it will be a long time before he touches guns. It might not happen in his first term. Remember, all the people who voted in Clinton's gun ban were out of office by the next election. And I don't think Obama is a stupid man. So I think he might let it go in his first term (might, but he could shock me). His second term is free game, so start planning to get him out of office is 2012. Slow down the buying, prices will normalize (no, S&W ARs at $6800 and Glock magazines at $65 are not acceptable, stop accepting it!). Stop fighting each other to buy overpriced pieces of junk made by no name companies just to have one, and start fighting with your reps. Stand together and stop beating on each other, for God's sake!

Calm down! It isn't worth it. Eyes on the prize, folks. A ban isn't ok as long as you have what you want. A ban isn't ok. A ban leads to an _all out_ ban. So stop trying to cover your own bases for right now and look ahead. The 2nd Amendment is too important to the rest of the Constitution to let it go at "well, I've got mine!" Screw that! You need to fight, right now, not buy everything you see. That doesn't solve the problem.

And while you are it, stop fighting for the 2nd and stopping there. You need to fight for every single word in the Constitution. This is our country! And our country isn't just about our guns and the freedom to own them. This is our freedom! Stop religion bashing, we have freedom of religion in this country. When you hear about speech laws, fight for your freedom of speech. Fight for the entire Constitution. It doesn't stop with your black rifles and AK47s, folks. There is a lot more at stake here.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

You are 100% right. The last two shows I went to (the 2nd one was this weekend) It was crazy. Prices are insane and the people are nuts. People were buying every "black" rifle they could. Seen a couple sell WAY over price before the guy with it even walked in the door! I like the WASR too but I'm NOT playing 800.00 and up for them. It's 1 400.00 rifle on the high side. ARs AKs Anything with a gas tube or might have been in a movie was outrageous.

Ammo isn't any better. 7.63x39 and 223/5.56 ammo is 3x more than this time last year. It was 50 bucks cheaper the show right before Xmas. The last show the hoopla was not so bad with pistols but I seen a Sigma with a 550 tag on it and a guy was going to buy it. I gave him my card for Buds and told him to calm down. The deal was a tad upset..I learned a few new swear words over the weekend. Good thing I left my son at home this time.

Man. I am by no means an Obamaphile. I do believe if he can get the people to stop thinking about the economy long enough he might try some gun law rewriting, But damn! It's out of hand. Of course the dealers are eating it up. It's supply and demand. The public believes the supply is going to disappear this month so they all demand a loaded AR with grenade launcher and laser but scratcher. So of course the prices have went way up. And that does nothing but feed demand. I'll bet the only place the economy is not hurting is gun and ammo sales.

I'm all for anyone that can legally buy a gun have one. Hell, I have 25 counting both long and short guns. Sure I bought a gun on election day. But I do every election day. I really don't know why. It just makes me happy. 

As stated in the OP if Obama is going to do something it will be a while. There is no way in hell he will while the economy is tanked. He has a lot of other crap to deal with and I don't think taking gun rights will be all that high on the list right now. We have time. All people are doing is making money for gun sellers. I don't think I've seen MSRP go up in a year. So when the sale price is getting where MSRP might look like a deal something is messed up. Other than the little shop I am hanging out in anyway will be buying anything for a while. My guy has not raised a price on anything but ammo and it's up everywhere. I can't get it shipped to me much cheaper than I can buy it locally right now. People calm down a little and stop thinking the end is coming in a week and prices will get back to whatever normal will be soon enough. AS log as we feed this beast it will keep on keepin' on.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Meet your new Attorney General of the United States... There's a reason why people are freaking out. We have the most anti-gun government, not just the president, but all branches...in the history of this country. All Obama has to do is sign a piece of paper. It doesn't take alot of energy or time to sign a piece of paper. Remember... it's for the children.

Bans are on the way. I'd say within the first 6 months.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

SuckLead said:


> And while you are it, stop fighting for the 2nd and stopping there. You need to fight for every single word in the Constitution. This is our country! And our country isn't just about our guns and the freedom to own them. This is our freedom! Stop religion bashing, we have freedom of religion in this country. When you hear about speech laws, fight for your freedom of speech. Fight for the entire Constitution. It doesn't stop with your black rifles and AK47s, folks. There is a lot more at stake here.


:smt023 I couldn't agree with this more! :smt023

As for gun shows, I was at one last week that was pretty tame by recent standards. Crowds were light and prices were approaching normalcy. The crappy weather might have contributed to this, but I was hopeful that the panic was winding down.


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

Excellent post SLead. 

Do keep in mind however, that it's congress that makes the laws, and there's plenty of them to concentrate on it if its their pet project. As JS noted, all Obama has to do is sign it.


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

MLB said:


> Excellent post SLead.
> 
> Do keep in mind however, that it's congress that makes the laws, and there's plenty of them to concentrate on it if its their pet project. As JS noted, all Obama has to do is sign it.


SL - nice post! Agreed though on congress, we just need to be very cognizant on what is being sent to P.O. for his signature.:smt023


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> _Kinda long. Please read the whole thing before you go ape on me. I wrote this after coming home from the gun show needing more than a few bandaids._


Okay. I read it all. Now as you read my responses, picture me talking in a calm, conversational voice as I explain why I think you're wrong on many of these points.



> After a visit to the gun show today, I just want to say this. Gun people... CALM DOWN!


 Many/most of the "gun people" already have the guns they want; the folks you are talking about might be better termed "no-gun people." People who always WANTED to have a gun, or maybe a certain type of gun, but never got around to getting one. Now they see the chance slipping away (more on this later), and they are acting to prevent that.



> No, seriously. I know we've got probably the most anti-gun president coming into office this week, but my God! You'd think the end of the world was coming! Is it really worth hurting someone or yourself to get your hands on a black rifle that someone is selling for about $1000 to $3000 more than it is actually worth? There was a guy there today with an FN SCAR that he was asking $8000 for. And I saw someone buy it! Come on, people! The gun retails for $2300 and some change!


Hate to break it to you, but if you saw a gun sell for X-thousand dollars, then at that time and place, THAT is what that weapon was worth to that buyer. What it sold for two or three months ago doesn't have much bearing on what the price is right now; nor will any guesses about how the price will "normalize" if we could just stop paying crazy prices for them. Trust me; I lived through the LAST Assault Weapons Ban, and I listened to folks saying the same thing for the first year or so. Fact is, prices never dropped for pre-ban items until well after the ban expired -- they went up. Every. Single. Year. Fixed supply, steadily increasing demand.



> The black rifles aren't going to be illegal come Tuesday.


If any new AWB is similar to the last one (big "IF"), nothing was ever made "illegal"; the manufacturers were simply told they couldn't make guns with certain features after a certain date. However, you might be dead wrong, as I understand it, at least in the case of imported weapons. They can be banned by executive order, simply by redefining them as "no longer considered Sporting firearms." One stroke of the pen, no more can be brought in; any in-transit can be turned around at the ports. Same thing for imported parts and magazines (wonder if Glock is making mags here in the U.S. yet?).



> It has to go through a lot of stages before that can happen, so you are looking at 6 months to a year if he submits something on Tuesday (which is so unlikely it is ludacris) and puts the petal to the metal on it.


Several new AWBs have already been written, and are waiting in the wings; none of them have sunset dates like the last one, because no compromising will be necessary to get them passed if the Dems vote as a block. I don't see any Senators willing to try a filibuster so early in a new session, so there would be nothing to stop it or even slow it down.



> If you never wanted one before now, why are you buying one all of a sudden?


When a person has been saying "Those look like fun; I oughta get one of them someday" for a couple of months or years, and then suddenly they realize that the door may be closing (like it has in the past, only tighter and maybe permanently, this time), then many of them will chose to act. Who are we to tell them they can't buy one? Who are we to tell them they shouldn't spend the money if they can afford it?



> If you all calm down, prices will normalize again.


As I said above, this is simply not reflective of past history. Most folks who HAD to have a pre-ban when the old AWB kicked-in, bought one fairly early. The rest of the folks were people new to the shooting sports, new to ARs or high-capacity autoloading pistols, or with a specific need to fill (high-power match target shooters, security personnel, rural home defenders, or armchair commandos). Even though the spike in demand had subsided, steady pressure kept prices high, and slowly rising, for all affected weapons, even after post-ban models were introduced a few years later. Even with the projected sunset date, we didn't know for sure that the ban wouldn't be re-authorized, or even expanded, and the proposed bans I've seen don't even have that slim ray of hope of a sunset clause. By the way, have you ever seen a list of Federal gun laws that have been repealed? Look around, let me know what you find.



> Trust me, Obama's got a lot of other things to worry about before your black rifles. Sure, it pisses me off, too, as the owner of an AK47 and a gun rights fighter. Why not actually fight the government instead of going to the gun show and fighting each other? WE'RE STILL THE BOSSES AROUND HERE! Think like one!


As a person who was at the forefront of the fight against the previous AWB, I can tell you that it doesn't matter how hard you fight if the odds and numbers are stacked against you. Only in Hollywood does the underdog always win if they_ just try hard enough._



> A guy at the show told me several people passed out at the gun show yesterday from panic attacks. He literally watched four people drop right in front of his table. IT ISN'T WORTH IT, PEOPLE!


Show of hands; how many people have heard someone (maybe a salesperson) talking BS at a gun show? (Rustle of many hands going up). Yeah, me too. Wonder when he told people that, if the emotional knee-jerk response generated MORE or LESS sales at his table.



> Slow yourself down and think rationally. Obama's got to deal with the economy, first thing. He's got his head in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. And personally, I think it will be a long time before he touches guns. It might not happen in his first term.


If he and/or the Congress do anything, they'll want to do it as far away from the next election as possible, hoping many folks will forget. The longest possible time before the next election, is right after the last one.



> Remember, all the people who voted in Clinton's gun ban were out of office by the next election.


Well, I don't think it was ALL of them, but many. On the other hand, some of these people were ELECTED on an anti-gun platform. Do you really think a multi-term incumbent who has repeatedly run on anti-gun policies will be affected by another anti-gun vote? Nope, me either.



> And I don't think Obama is a stupid man. So I think he might let it go in his first term (might, but he could shock me). His second term is free game, so start planning to get him out of office is 2012.


I think the LONGEST he will go without action is just after the next mid-term elections, less than two years from now. I'll be shocked if he doesn't Executive-order or sign an anti-gun law (including "closing the gun show loophole", "safety legislation", or any other BS name they want to call it) within the next 6 months; but I currently have bets on him doing so within 90 and 100 days.



> Slow down the buying, prices will normalize (no, S&W ARs at $6800 and Glock magazines at $65 are not acceptable, stop accepting it!). Stop fighting each other to buy overpriced pieces of junk made by no name companies just to have one, and start fighting with your reps. Stand together and stop beating on each other, for God's sake!


Rock River Arms and many other AR manufacturers are currently back-ordered for 4-6 months. That is, all of the guns they can make in that time frame are already sold. In a normal high-demand situation, a company could add manufacturing capacity to meet demand and increase production, but in this case they won't; not with a possible ban waiting in the wings that might shut down their entire company and make it impossible to pay off any increased tooling/parts/production costs. Any guns that trickle out of the distributor network in the next 6 months will be priced-up BEFORE they get to your local dealers; even if he only marks them up a buck, you're going to crap when you see the prices. A lot of places may choose to just sit on them, and see where the prices are moving, letting a few out now and again to test the market. This will keep the prices higher than what they otherwise might be, and unless an employee complains publicly, no one will be the wiser (would YOU raise a fit if your employer did that? In this job market? No, I didn't think so.)



> Calm down! It isn't worth it. Eyes on the prize, folks. A ban isn't ok as long as you have what you want. A ban isn't ok. A ban leads to an _all out_ ban. So stop trying to cover your own bases for right now and look ahead. The 2nd Amendment is too important to the rest of the Constitution to let it go at "well, I've got mine!" Screw that! You need to fight, right now, not buy everything you see. That doesn't solve the problem.


That may not solve the long-term problem for all of us as a group, but it does help solve the short-term problem for each individual. Most folks will act in their own self-interest. Period.



> And while you are it, stop fighting for the 2nd and stopping there. You need to fight for every single word in the Constitution. This is our country! And our country isn't just about our guns and the freedom to own them. This is our freedom! Stop religion bashing, we have freedom of religion in this country. When you hear about speech laws, fight for your freedom of speech. Fight for the entire Constitution. It doesn't stop with your black rifles and AK47s, folks. There is a lot more at stake here.


Dang. I think I have to agree with this part, though.

DJ


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Really, I believe they are going to do their best to slam guns and gun owners. The only real question is the timing.
From the "New, Improved!" White House website:


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

Sounds more like $1.12 worth to me. 

Good post.

WM


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

DJ Niner said:


> Really, I believe they are going to do their best to slam guns and gun owners. The only real question is the timing.
> From the "New, Improved!" White House website:


DJ is that "permanent" as in reinstating it or permanently dead?


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

DJ Niner said:


> Okay. I read it all. Now as you read my responses, picture me talking in a calm, conversational voice as I explain why I think you're wrong on many of these points.





DJ Niner said:


> Many/most of the "gun people" already have the guns they want; the folks you are talking about might be better termed "no-gun people." People who always WANTED to have a gun, or maybe a certain type of gun, but never got around to getting one. Now they see the chance slipping away (more on this later), and they are acting to prevent that.


This has not been my experience from behind the sales counter. Yes, there is a large amount of people coming in who never owned guns before, I will agree there. But I've got an excessively high number of folks with large collections, regulars to the shop, running in in a panic just the same to buy the black rifles. This includes people who buy stripped lowers by the case. Most of the people I have sold black rifles to since November are people I have sold many guns to in the past, people who have had guns all their lives, even people who already have two or three black rifles in their collection.



DJ Niner said:


> Hate to break it to you, but if you saw a gun sell for X-thousand dollars, then at that time and place, THAT is what that weapon was worth to that buyer. What it sold for two or three months ago doesn't have much bearing on what the price is right now; nor will any guesses about how the price will "normalize" if we could just stop paying crazy prices for them. Trust me; I lived through the LAST Assault Weapons Ban, and I listened to folks saying the same thing for the first year or so. Fact is, prices never dropped for pre-ban items until well after the ban expired -- they went up. Every. Single. Year. Fixed supply, steadily increasing demand.


Then how do you explain it being $8000 at the gun show and $2400 at the local shops? And the fact that the prices keep steadily rising at the gun show but are remaining steady at the local shops? I'm glad some dealers at the show are taking people for a ride and making a buck, their karma will get them later. Also, the prices rising on ammo caused people I deal with to switch to "whatever is cheapest" causing the highest stuff to sit for long stretches of time until, oddly, the next papers we got from those companies claimed a lower dealer price suddenly.



DJ Niner said:


> If any new AWB is similar to the last one (big "IF"), nothing was ever made "illegal"; the manufacturers were simply told they couldn't make guns with certain features after a certain date. However, you might be dead wrong, as I understand it, at least in the case of imported weapons. They can be banned by executive order, simply by redefining them as "no longer considered Sporting firearms." One stroke of the pen, no more can be brought in; any in-transit can be turned around at the ports. Same thing for imported parts and magazines (wonder if Glock is making mags here in the U.S. yet?).


This, too, is all well and good, but from speaking with the customers in my shop, they are reacting to what they believe is a complete ban on anything semi-automatic, meaning they won't be able to get these guns with or without these features. What it could be and what people believe is a whole other story. I get asked several times a day "when does the 500% (or 200%, or 1000%, or whatever % they heard) tax increase on ammo take effect?" What tax increase? This is something that was said Obama supports, but to my knowledge has not been offered up nor has it been voted on yet. However, people still think this to be so. I had someone in today who thought it took effect yesterday and was trying to figure out what he was going to have to pay when the tax was included.



DJ Niner said:


> Several new AWBs have already been written, and are waiting in the wings; none of them have sunset dates like the last one, because no compromising will be necessary to get them passed if the Dems vote as a block. I don't see any Senators willing to try a filibuster so early in a new session, so there would be nothing to stop it or even slow it down.


That, too, is fine, but even if they begin moving this very second, it won't take effect by the end of the week. Most of the panic I am seeing is caused by people believing that the moment he takes office, all of this goes into effect, not that it goes through the correct channels or anything. Just that he's now in office and now these things are automatically illegal.



DJ Niner said:


> When a person has been saying "Those look like fun; I oughta get one of them someday" for a couple of months or years, and then suddenly they realize that the door may be closing (like it has in the past, only tighter and maybe permanently, this time), then many of them will chose to act. Who are we to tell them they can't buy one? Who are we to tell them they shouldn't spend the money if they can afford it?


Who's saying that? I didn't. What I said was if you never wanted one before, why are you buying it now? It would be like me buying an AR15. I have never had a desire to own one, so why would I go out and buy one just because I might not be able to sometime in the future? It's like running out to buy a pet tucan because by the end of the year you might not be able to, even though you never considered having a pet tucan before. I bought an AK about a year ago on what you said. It was in my list of things to buy eventually, not really on the top of the list, but it was there. I decided now was probably the time, so I went out and bought one. But it was something I planned on getting eventually. I just moved it up on the priority list. I am getting many customers who are coming in to buy ARs and AKs who are admitting they are only buying them because they might be banned, they never really wanted one and "don't know what I'm going to do with it and don't really like them." Then why are you buying it? Do you buy every discontinued car on the market because you won't be able to buy it later, even though you didn't want one nor do you like it?



DJ Niner said:


> As I said above, this is simply not reflective of past history. Most folks who HAD to have a pre-ban when the old AWB kicked-in, bought one fairly early. The rest of the folks were people new to the shooting sports, new to ARs or high-capacity autoloading pistols, or with a specific need to fill (high-power match target shooters, security personnel, rural home defenders, or armchair commandos). Even though the spike in demand had subsided, steady pressure kept prices high, and slowly rising, for all affected weapons, even after post-ban models were introduced a few years later. Even with the projected sunset date, we didn't know for sure that the ban wouldn't be re-authorized, or even expanded, and the proposed bans I've seen don't even have that slim ray of hope of a sunset clause. By the way, have you ever seen a list of Federal gun laws that have been repealed? Look around, let me know what you find.


I already said something about this. This has not been experience from behind the sales counter. I'm sorry. I've got more seasoned shooters and gun owners coming in to buy multiples than I do people who have never owned guns before. So I am not seeing this.



DJ Niner said:


> As a person who was at the forefront of the fight against the previous AWB, I can tell you that it doesn't matter how hard you fight if the odds and numbers are stacked against you. Only in Hollywood does the underdog always win if they_ just try hard enough._


So let's just give up now.



DJ Niner said:


> Show of hands; how many people have heard someone (maybe a salesperson) talking BS at a gun show? (Rustle of many hands going up). Yeah, me too. Wonder when he told people that, if the emotional knee-jerk response generated MORE or LESS sales at his table.


That is probably true. And people get what they deserve. Heck, sales people at the gun show love to tell me that, as a woman, I can't handle anything bigger than a .22. So yeah, I've heard some BS at the local car dealership, too. And as I said, people get what they deserve. BTW, the guy who told me that (about people passing out) is actually a co-worker of mine. And wasn't selling anything. He was advertising, yes, but he didn't need to sell me anything.



DJ Niner said:


> If he and/or the Congress do anything, they'll want to do it as far away from the next election as possible, hoping many folks will forget. The longest possible time before the next election, is right after the last one.


I don't agree. This is a matter of opinion, so I won't argue with you on it. I'll just leave it at the fact that I do not agree with it. People sure haven't forgotten the first AWB, and too many that voted for him were caught up in making history. You could be right and guns could be banned next week, or he could let it go until his second term when he doesn't have anything to lose.



DJ Niner said:


> Well, I don't think it was ALL of them, but many. On the other hand, some of these people were ELECTED on an anti-gun platform. Do you really think a multi-term incumbent who has repeatedly run on anti-gun policies will be affected by another anti-gun vote? Nope, me either.


True. But how many people vote based on policy rather than the fact that they think the guy running is cute or they like his name? How many people did you hear say, "Obama is pro-gun!" during the whole election process? I have much less faith in the human race as a whole. I don't believe most people vote based on policies, and many who do only look at one or two. That goes for gun people as well. I know many people who voted for McCain based on the fact that he was less anti-gun than Obama and knew nothing else about what he stood for.



DJ Niner said:


> I think the LONGEST he will go without action is just after the next mid-term elections, less than two years from now. I'll be shocked if he doesn't Executive-order or sign an anti-gun law (including "closing the gun show loophole", "safety legislation", or any other BS name they want to call it) within the next 6 months; but I currently have bets on him doing so within 90 and 100 days.


That, too, is a matter of opinion, and we just have to wait and see.



DJ Niner said:


> Rock River Arms and many other AR manufacturers are currently back-ordered for 4-6 months. That is, all of the guns they can make in that time frame are already sold. In a normal high-demand situation, a company could add manufacturing capacity to meet demand and increase production, but in this case they won't; not with a possible ban waiting in the wings that might shut down their entire company and make it impossible to pay off any increased tooling/parts/production costs. Any guns that trickle out of the distributor network in the next 6 months will be priced-up BEFORE they get to your local dealers; even if he only marks them up a buck, you're going to crap when you see the prices. A lot of places may choose to just sit on them, and see where the prices are moving, letting a few out now and again to test the market. This will keep the prices higher than what they otherwise might be, and unless an employee complains publicly, no one will be the wiser (would YOU raise a fit if your employer did that? In this job market? No, I didn't think so.)


Yep, Colt's back ordered a year and so is Bushmaster. DPMS is a year out on stripped lowers. Again, why is that? And who are we talking about sitting on them, the shops, distributors, or the manufacturers? I know our shop is throwing them to the floor the second they come in the loading dock. I also know that prices have gone up slightly, but not much. Both factory direct and distributors. And our distributors are doing the same as the shops... tossing them out to shops as fast as they come in because of the fear that this will slow down, as it actually has. I'm taking this from an actual shop, not a gun show, of course. The addition of people to make these weapons would, of course, bring prices higher since their overhead is now so much more. And you are right, most are not doing this. And from what I see at local shops, prices are staying fairly even. This may not be the case where you are, and it may not be the case at every shop. I am basing it on the shop I work at and those around me.



DJ Niner said:


> That may not solve the long-term problem for all of us as a group, but it does help solve the short-term problem for each individual. Most folks will act in their own self-interest. Period.


True. Which is why I stated what I did.



DJ Niner said:


> Dang. I think I have to agree with this part, though.


Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on everything else. I still stand behind what I originally posted, as I am sure you stand behind what you said. In the long and short... we'll just have to wait and see.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

DJ Niner said:


> Really, I believe they are going to do their best to slam guns and gun owners. The only real question is the timing.


I agree. I think at some point Obama is going to do his very best to remove anything he does not see as having a "sporting purpose." No question.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> In the long and short... we'll just have to wait and see.


Well, here is what he did the first day in office...


> *WHouse stops pending Bush regulations for review*
> 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama's new administration ordered all federal agencies and departments on Tuesday to stop any pending regulations until they can be reviewed by incoming staff, halting last-minute Bush orders in their tracks.
> 
> ...


My right to carry in National Parks, after review and accepted from the Dept. of Interior, has been stopped dead in it's tracks. After just one day in office.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

buck32 said:


> DJ is that "permanent" as in reinstating it or permanently dead?


Initially, I laughed when I read what you wrote, because it hadn't even occurred to me that it could be read either way. :smt082

I'm pretty sure they mean reinstating the law and making it permanent, although I obviously would like the other idea better. :mrgreen:


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Well, Sucklead, you've passed-on a good bit more info, much of which I found interesting and not quite so easy to explain. It appears as though you _*ARE*_ experiencing a rather inexplicable sales rush, the details of which I'd not heard about until now.

On the subject of regular customers with large collections (including black rifles) still panic-buying ARs, that's a stumper. I've heard of a few folks picking up a spare or two for children or grand-children to own/use (years from now), and I suppose a few folks are thinking they might be able to turn a tidy profit if they buy, hold, and resell later, but other than that, I'm at a loss to explain their behavior.

People buying stripped lowers in any quantity are taking a big gamble, in my opinion. Even during the last AWB, it wasn't technically legal to assemble a weapon in the prohibited configurations after the ban took affect; the problem was, there was no way to prove the guns WEREN'T assembled prior to the ban, so the authorities pretty much ignored them. Anyone buying a stripped lower is betting heavily on several things:

- That the new ban will be exactly the same as the old one, or even less restrictive.

- That there will be parts available to complete these lowers within a reasonable amount of time. As we both said, most companies are 6 months to a year back-ordered on guns right now, and if they are short on ANY part they need to make and sell complete rifles, then they darn sure won't be selling that part separately. The one I've heard the most about is barrels, and I think that is the primary problem at Bushmaster and at least one other maker/assembler.

- That the law writers/tweakers won't try to specifically plug this loophole by addressing it directly.

All the congress-critters have to do is implement a California-style registration in conjunction with any new AWB, and anyone with a stripped lower is screwed. And those with "cases" of stripped lowers are REALLY screwed, and I personally won't shed a tear for them as I think most folks doing what you described there are in it to make money and nothing more. If in their gamble to make big bucks, they've prevented another potential gun-owner from buying a single lower and assembling a rifle before any new ban takes effect, then they deserve what they get, IMO. Sorry if the above offends anyone reading it who may have bought a lower or two; just my opinion. Good luck, folks, you're gonna need it.

As for the guy with the loose checkbook paying a huge amount for the SCAR; well, when you told me (above) it was 1/3rd cheaper at a shop right in the same town, then I decided you were right to question his sanity. Even if the SCAR you saw him buy was one of the limited-edition, specially-cased-and-engraved, first-production-run SCARs, I don't think it justifies even doubling the price, let alone tripling it. You sold me on that one; he was nuts. :mrgreen:

When you described the worried-about-the-ammo-tax folks, and the people who think there will be an outright ban on semi-autos (ban, as in "collect them all, right now"), all I could think of was "these are the 'Righty' versions of the 'Lefty' woman on YouYube who thought Obama was somehow going to pay her mortgage and put gas in her car" (go ahead, if you haven't seen it, Google it up and shake your head in disbelief). These folks heard a little piece of something, from a friend-of-a-friend, or caught the end of a newscast, and just didn't get the full or correct story. Yes, various ammo-tax bills have been introduced in some state legislatures, along with other anti-gun/ammo measures like micro-serialization. They just don't understand that they are proposals, not laws. Not that I don't think the Dems would implement them if they thought they could get away with it, but if folks are too busy/dumb/distracted to keep up with the exact details, just sell them what they want, and recommend the range on the other side of town. 

Sucklead, I based most of my first response on your original post, which talked almost exclusively about the gunshow and how folks were acting there. I really didn't realize how much of it was also based on what you have been observing at your workplace, which I consider much more accurate info as it is more long-term. Also your report of how some of the long-time customers are acting is quite worrisome. I am reduced to saying that I hope most of the crazies have somehow become concentrated in your area, and do not spread into the public at large. I'm now sending out a few email to folks in other states, asking some specific questions about what they're seeing; not because I doubt you, but because I hope it's not that bad in other places, too.

And rest assured that I'll keep fighting the good fight, even though it's really only a question of how much of our rights the Dems really have the stomach to try to take, and how much political capital are they willing to spend to take it. In some states, with blue-dog Dems in the legislature, it's possible that folks can make a difference; in other states, hard-core incumbent Dems are dug in like spring ticks, and they have nothing to be concerned about. We'll see how it shakes-out in the long haul, and I fervently hope I'm wrong on all counts, but fear I am right on most. Thanks for taking the time to further explain your positions and what was driving them; it was very illuminating to me, in many ways.

Maybe I gotta get out more; hang out in the shops, drink the coffee, keep my fingers on the pulse of the gun-buying public. Yeah! I'm off on a mission... :mrgreen:


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## MLB (Oct 4, 2006)

DJ Niner said:


> Really, I believe they are going to do their best to slam guns and gun owners. The only real question is the timing.
> From the "New, Improved!" White House website:


Perhaps encouraging a bit of thread drift here, but is there any good reason to restrict the access of LEO's to firearms registration data? I don't see the advantage to legally carrying folks of restricting this info. I can't see it as being very useful since criminals generally don't register their firearms, but what would be the harm?


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

MLB said:


> Perhaps encouraging a bit of thread drift here, but is there any good reason to restrict the access of LEO's to firearms registration data? I don't see the advantage to legally carrying folks of restricting this info. I can't see it as being very useful since criminals generally don't register their firearms, but what would be the harm?


As I understand it, LEO's _CAN_ access this info in conjunction with any legitimate investigation. They CANNOT, however, run traces that reveal sensitive information just for giggles, or to leak it to non-LEOs. The anti-gun groups are pissed that they can't regain access to this info to support their never-ending chain of frivolous lawsuits against the gun industry, and have been falsely using the "restricting LEOs" angle to push for "reform" in hopes of gaining access. More info here:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=208

Check the footnotes on that page for more details.

EDIT: More info here:

http://thehill.com/op-eds/reauthorize-the-tiahrt-amendment-2007-05-23.html

.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

DJ Niner said:


> all I could think of was "these are the 'Righty' versions of the 'Lefty' woman on YouYube who thought Obama was somehow going to pay her mortgage and put gas in her car" (go ahead, if you haven't seen it, Google it up and shake your head in disbelief).


Oh, I believe it! LOL! I'll have to look that one up in the future when I don't think it will cause my brain to burst through my ears. LOL!

I do apologize for not being somewhat clearer about the difference between where I work (or saying I work in a gun shop) and the gun show. I was sort of livid about my gun show experience from that day, still tending to a few wounds I'd received at said show. I have been watching customers to see if I can figure things out. It appears I've got mostly the following:

1. Alarmists. These are the folks who shake at the counter and probably have a hole dug in their yard already. They also almost always have several of each so called "assualt weapon" in their possession already, and they tell everyone they can reach what they believe is going to happen... and it usually involves the US military or the blue helmets knocking on your door with an MP5 in hand.

2. Sellers. These are the folks who hope to flip these guns after a ban, hopefully for double or triple the amount they paid originally. They see an HK 91 on the shelf for $5000 and start to see dollar signs when they see an AK and a possible ban. This also includes the people buying stripped lowers by the case.

3. Horders. I have a lot of these, but I always have. These are the guys with 5000 rounds of 7.62x39 in those sealed canisters you need a can opener for, and all those canisters are behind their newly put up drywall next to their six WASRs. No joke, I have a customer who owns a second home just for his ammo.

4. Those who haven't been to a gun shop in 10 years. They remember getting 7.62x39 for half the price it is now, and are certain the prices will go up three fold before 2010, so they turn into instant horders.

5. Deal finders who want to fight. These are folks who swear to God they found a Glock 21 NIB at another store for $150 and call every store in the area to accuse them of raping their customers. When they get called out, they freak out that prices "are already going through the roof" and buy the one in front of them at the normal price, and will probably buy three or four of them. These are also sellers.

6. Chicken Littles. Another group of shakers, although not as bad as the alarmists. They buy anything they see, regardless of price, caliber, ease of search, or probability of ban. This explains the guy buying the $8000 SCAR or the guy screaming at me that I am wrong, you don't need a Class III for an MP5 with a suppressor and accuses me of hording them all myself personally, or calling me an Obama lover.

Believe me, it's fun behind the counter. Although I admit... if I was writing my entry right now, I would have written it somewhat differently... and better. I was, honestly, mad as heck when I wrote it. Like I said, some people at the gun show drew blood on me just for getting too close to a gun they were getting ready to buy. I wasn't in the market... I just wanted to see the prices. :anim_lol:


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

Love the labels! You should keep notes (general/non-specific) on the people you meet in your job. Might make for good book material someday.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

SuckLead,

I enjoyed both your original and this last post a great deal. I always appreciate your view from behind the counter so to speak, and it makes me wish we had a gun store around here staffed with someone as objective as you. :smt023


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> SuckLead,
> 
> I enjoyed both your original and this last post a great deal. I always appreciate your view from behind the counter so to speak, and it makes me wish we had a gun store around here staffed with someone as objective as you. :smt023


+1...I agree, this was great. And like DJ, the labels were great. Please keep us informed on how your labeled customers change with the times.:smt023


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

tekhead1219 said:


> +1...I agree, this was great. And like DJ, the labels were great. Please keep us informed on how your labeled customers change with the times.:smt023


You mean the labels might have expiration dates? :anim_lol:


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

DJ Niner said:


> You mean the labels might have expiration dates? :anim_lol:


Yeah...you know how it goes in MOST cases, get older...get wiser!:anim_lol:


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

tekhead1219 said:


> +1...I agree, this was great. And like DJ, the labels were great. Please keep us informed on how your labeled customers change with the times.:smt023


I guess you haven't considered what labels she's made up for us ....

:smt083

WM


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

Wandering Man said:


> I guess you haven't considered what labels she's made up for us ....
> 
> :smt083
> 
> WM


DOH!!!:anim_lol:


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

Wandering Man said:


> I guess you haven't considered what labels she's made up for us ....
> 
> :smt083
> 
> WM


She label me a teddy bear!


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes, yes I did. However, all other labels for forum members remain under lock and key! BWAHAHAHA!


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Oh, another thread made me realize I forgot a label. But since it was locked, I won't mention it. :mrgreen: Let's just say they usually have no idea what is going on in the world.


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

tekhead1219 said:


> Yeah...you know how it goes in MOST cases, get older...get wiser!:anim_lol:


I have found the older I get the more I realize I don't know very much.


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## buck32 (May 26, 2008)

SuckLead said:


> Oh, another thread made me realize I forgot a label. But since it was locked, I won't mention it. :mrgreen: Let's just say they usually have no idea what is going on in the world.


Dang, I have been labled now!!!!!!


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

I think I spotted either a #4 or #6 the other day. 

I went in to my favorite gun store to pick up some primers. A man in his mid to late 40's burst into the store, grabbing the clerk's attention and demanded to know what he had in assault rifles. He was shown the two on display (a bushmaster and something else). 

He then began asking rapid fire questions. I thought maybe someone was hot on his heels and he was going to need protection to get out of the store. But his questions showed that he was pulling from a rather shallow pool of knowledge.

I know very little about the so called assault rifles, but I could tell he knew even less. The big difference was he was trying to act like he knew a lot. He asked if they had any others in the store after twice being told they were the only ones.

He asked if they had any different models, like a Colt or something. (no, just these two).

He asked if you could add a bunch of extras on to them, like flashlights or stuff like that (yes)

I don't know if he ever asked the price. But suddenly he dashed out of the store like enemy agents were hot on his heels.

Do I score points for spotting him? 

Is there an Audubon society book that I can check him off in?

WM


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Ah! He's group number 7! http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Or it was a straw sale waiting to happen.


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## Wandering Man (Jul 9, 2006)

SuckLead said:


> Ah! He's group number 7! http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
> 
> Or it was a straw sale waiting to happen.


Ow! Now my eyes hurt. I couldn't make very far down the page. Duct tape, plates, and paranoia running rampant!

My guy was older, but still a wannabe. And yeah, seems like a straw sale.

That must have been the stuff I had to shake off my shoes when I left.

WM


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