# Learning About Ammo



## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm not new to weapons, but I'm pretty new to handguns. I've been trying to learn about different choices for self/home defense but with so many different brands and choices it is easy to get overwhelmed. Is there a good source to compare different brands and learn about manufacturing methods (JHP, SCHP, etc...)?

I own a Springfield XD .40 S&W in case you'd like to know. Thanks all.


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## denner (Jun 3, 2011)

You-Tube


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Look for _The Box o' Truth_.
Click on: The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Try tnoutdoors9 on youtube. His tests are among some of the best for a civilian. Pick a round, google it, then view his videos.


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## blake38 (Apr 18, 2013)

I found this article pretty informative.
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Just noticed that you mentioned you have an XD in .40S&W. That is my primary carry caliber and my preferred loads for my gen3 Glock 23 that is my primary carry gun are;

o Speer Gold Dot 165 grain JHP in their "hot" configuration, which is product #53970
o Federal 165 grain HST


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

I recommend the research, but don't get too caught up in comparing ammo from the major American manufacturers. 

Basically, for practice, you are just as well off to buy the cheap stuff in FMJ, or whatever abbreviation the individual companies use to denote a solid lead, copper jacketed bullet. For self-defense, any of the major manufacturers that produce hollow point bullets are OK. They all hype their new latest and greatest bullet technologies, and they are all good. Personally, I use the cheapest of the bunch, the Winchester white box jacketed hollow points labeled 'Personal Protection.' You can buy them in boxes of 50 for not much more than a box of 20 for some of the best known name brands. They don't make the pretty flower when you shoot them into ballistic gel, but their expansion is very close to the same as the expensive stuff.

The bottom line, in self defense, is always going to be hitting any attacker in a place that will make him stop his attack, and a couple of millimeters of difference in expansion is not likely to matter, if you accomplish that.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Bisley said:


> I recommend the research, but don't get too caught up in comparing ammo from the major American manufacturers.
> 
> Basically, for practice, you are just as well off to buy the cheap stuff in FMJ, or whatever abbreviation the individual companies use to denote a solid lead, copper jacketed bullet. For self-defense, any of the major manufacturers that produce hollow point bullets are OK. They all hype their new latest and greatest bullet technologies, and they are all good. Personally, I use the cheapest of the bunch, the Winchester white box jacketed hollow points labeled 'Personal Protection.' You can buy them in boxes of 50 for not much more than a box of 20 for some of the best known name brands. They don't make the pretty flower when you shoot them into ballistic gel, but their expansion is very close to the same as the expensive stuff.
> 
> The bottom line, in self defense, is always going to be hitting any attacker in a place that will make him stop his attack, and a couple of millimeters of difference in expansion is not likely to matter, if you accomplish that.


The two primary things you are buying in the high quality SD ammo is a higher probability of expansion and a lower chance of fragmentation as the bullet moves through a body.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks for the tip, I've been watching quite a few of his videos.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

Appreciate it, I'll check it out.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks Bisley. I have plenty of target ammo, I wanted something with a hollow point for self-defense. My main concerns are stopping power, if I have to use it in self-defense I want the SOB to know he's been hit, and second over penetration. The houses in my neighborhood aren't stacked on top of each other but they are fairly close together. I wouldn't want a shot to end up in my neighbor's house if I can avoid it. It seems 165gr rounds provide a pretty good balance of penetration and velocity.


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## Badger68 (Apr 22, 2013)

I'll have to check out the Speer Gold Dot. The reviews I've seen on the Federal all seem to be pretty positive. Thanks.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

1. There is no such thing as "stopping power." Some hits stop some people, but someone else hit in the same place with the same bullet will not be stopped.

2. How to control "over-penetration": Practice a lot, so every shot you fire goes exactly where you want it to go. Good-quality body hits will not impinge upon a neighbor's home.

3. When you practice, you might use cheaper ammunition. But the ammunition with which you practice should be a ballistic duplicate of your self-defense load.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> The two primary things you are buying in the high quality SD ammo is a higher probability of expansion and a lower chance of fragmentation as the bullet moves through a body.


And I have concluded that all of the major brands do a good job with this.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Bisley said:


> And I have concluded that all of the major brands do a good job with this.


Some do better than others simply because of their design approach for a specific bullet and how they want it to perform. For example, frangible bullets do break up as they travel through their target. Other bullets are specifically designed to stay in one piece in order to drive deeper and to penetrate heavy clothing, car windows and doors, etc. Police commonly are interested in these designs.

For the civilian carrier, it can be a daunting task when trying to find the best load and bullet design for our particular needs. One day last year I was in a McDonald's when in walked four young men who were large in various ways. One of them was a really big guy... perhaps 6 feet and 300+ pounds of meat. His chest was quite large and rotund. In looking at him sideways, it dawned on my that if I ever was confronted by someone this large who was intent on doing me serious harm, my chosen ammunition would really have a job on its hands. Solid chest hits would have a way to travel before getting into his vitals and when you introduce winter clothing, that simply compounds the task. It did give me pause and made me think about the reality of what a bullet can be called upon to do.

We should all know the obvious criteria. For example, shorter barreled guns, such as the Glock 26/27 series, do better with lighter bullets. So in those, you would want to use a 155gr for your Glock 27 .40S&W in order to allow the bullet to accelerate enough to approach its top muzzle velocity. The heavier bullets should be left for the longer barrels because they need more burn time of the propellant to accelerate them down the barrel (velocity had to overcome inertia). This is why I don't recommend 180 grain bullets for a Glock 27. There are no magical potions when talking bullet design, however some certainly do have a better track record than others.

Yes, picking the best ammunition is daunting and difficult. One is never certain they've taken the right decision until they have to actually use it. And even then, they will only know how well it performed for that specific event.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

SouthernBoy said:


> Yes, picking the best ammunition is daunting and difficult. One is never certain they've taken the right decision until they have to actually use it. And even then, they will only know how well it performed for that specific event.


That's why I spend more time worrying about the quality of my practice time than the quality of my ammo. The only real breakthrough (somewhat recently) in handgun bullet technology is the hollow point that expands at lower velocities, and all of the major manufacturers sell them, now. All I want to know is that my selected cartridge has one of these type bullets, and sufficient velocity for it to expand. If I fire a couple magazines and get no feeding failures, I'm set.


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## zeke4351 (Jan 29, 2013)

From what I have found reading and watching videos the .40S&W performs the best when using +P 155 to 165 grain ammo.


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

I don't worry about how much my 45's expand. They are big enough to do the job without expansion if placed properly as are 9's and 40's. Quite a few have been killed or incapacitated with 22 long rifle rounds from pistols that don't expand significantly. If you miss expansion is merely academic.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

zeke4351 said:


> From what I have found reading and watching videos the .40S&W performs the best when using +P 155 to 165 grain ammo.


There is no recognized "+P" designation for the .40S&W round. There certainly are some loads hotter than others in the same bullet weight, but SAAMI does not recognize any in +P for this caliber (unless that has changed recently).


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> 1. *There is no such thing as "stopping power." Some hits stop some people, but someone else hit in the same place with the same bullet will not be stopped.*
> 
> 2. How to control "over-penetration": Practice a lot, so every shot you fire goes exactly where you want it to go. Good-quality body hits will not impinge upon a neighbor's home.
> 
> 3. When you practice, you might use cheaper ammunition. But the ammunition with which you practice should be a ballistic duplicate of your self-defense load.


I'm going to disagree with you on this one, Steve. The term "stopping power" I suspect is an outgrowth (improvement??) of the much abused and ridiculous term, "knockdown power". Knockdown power was nonsense and may very well of grown out of TV's and movies where the person shot was catapulted across a room as if fired from a cannon. And many people actually believed this is what happened. I know, I talked to a number of them and they were steadfast in their assertion that a .45ACP would blow a man off his feet or, and this was the really funny one, if shot by a .45 in the thumb, the person could have his arm torn off. Seriously. Crazy, eh?

Stopping power was promoted and advanced by Evans' and Sanow's work in their, then, three breakthrough books on the topic. Where stopping power gets lost in the shuffle is that a number of people are starting to use it again as "knockdown power" was used (guess that one just couldn't be let go). There is a decent and acceptable definition of stopping power and as long as we keep things in context and common sense, this definition applies pretty well to the term.

"Stopping power is the immediate, near immediate, or practical cessation of the aggressive and dangerous actions of an assailant before he can do any harm or further harm to his victim(s)." [my words]

This leaves the door open to a number of factors while at the same time, requires a definitive action to exist in order to relate stopping power to a shooting. The fly in the ointment is as you mentioned, *"Some hits stop some people, but someone else hit in the same place with the same bullet will not be stopped."* to which I wholeheartedly agree. I have stated many times that there are few absolutes in a self defense shooting because there are just too many variables to consider. So if you shoot a BG two or three times and he stops his attack and goes down, you can rightly say that your chosen round has good stopping power.... but only for that specific incident. While you may now have evidence, and some confidence, that your SD round can perform, there is just no sure answer that it will again.

So yes, the definition I offered for stopping power is a good one. However, the proof is in the pudding as to whether or not you will get the desired results when you need to use your gun. Enter practice, determination, will, and follow through. Perhaps these will always remain the main ingredient and the primary key to one's success in a SD shooting.


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## Overkill0084 (Nov 28, 2010)

I fall into a similar mindset to Bisley: Most modern SD ammo will do the job, if you do yours. 
I am skeptical as to whether those Super Duper Wicked Gnarly 20 per box, $2+ per shot rounds are really a worthwhile step up from the less impressive Winchester Ranger T or Federal Hydra-Shok that I carry. 
I tend to believe that much of the great SD ammo debate is marketing BS.
Opinions vary of course.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Overkill0084 said:


> I fall into a similar mindset to Bisley: Most modern SD ammo will do the job, if you do yours.
> I am skeptical as to whether those Super Duper Wicked Gnarly 20 per box, $2+ per shot rounds are really a worthwhile step up from the less impressive Winchester Ranger T or Federal Hydra-Shok that I carry.
> I tend to believe that much of the great SD ammo debate is marketing BS.
> Opinions vary of course.


Me, too. Now do yourself a favor and update your Federal Hydra-Shok to the HST.


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## Overkill0084 (Nov 28, 2010)

SouthernBoy said:


> Me, too. Now do yourself a favor and update your Federal Hydra-Shok to the HST.


Nah, I hardly carry that one these days.


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