# When someone finds a gun and uses it in a crime, should the gun owner be liable?



## BackyardCowboy (Aug 27, 2014)

https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...owner-liability-law-changes-policy/676635002/


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## hillman (Jul 27, 2014)

That 'should' invites personal opinion. in my opinion, the optimal procedure is to take the gun with you when you leave the vehicle - because, if you need the gun while in the car, you probably need it when you're out of it. Second choice, leave the gun locked up and out of sight, then lock the vehicle. There is no third choice that doesn't compromise your responsibility, but at least get the gun out of sight in a non-obvious place and then lock the vehicle.

There is no Remote Responsibility though. If your gun is stolen because of your carelessness (C & N - Gun?), you can be charged with that - if there is such a law in the jurisdiction. Not culpable for subsequent criminal use by another person though. You are not the dirtbag's keeper. _That_ non-culpability should hold in both criminal and civil law.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

The day cops stop having firearms stolen from their cars, we can then focus on the general public. 

It's definitely not a good idea to leave a firearm in a vehicle unattended. I've done it, but only for short periods of time. Still not a legit excuse though. 

Still, many do, and will continue to do so.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

First leaving a gun in a car is not the best idea, but sometimes unavoidable. Example going into a government building when out running errands.
Second the first story the criminal broke into the car but does not say where in the car the gun was.
Third if they pass a accountability law it should include L.E. which has more guns lost and stolen from cars. city, county, state, and federal. Example, officers gun left in bathroom, Swat van left unlocked in hotel parking lot had 3- M16s stolen.


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## denner12 (Oct 14, 2017)

N o t if you report it stolen before a crime is committed. If you are aware that your gun has been stolen you should report it to the proper authorities.


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## DJ Niner (Oct 3, 2006)

That article was pretty poorly written. First line: "On a recent Thursday night, a man broke into a car parked outside a bar on Demonbreun Street in Nashville and found an AR-15."

If someone breaks-in to anywhere, they didn't "find" a gun. They "stole" a gun. It's not like the owner left it on the hood of the vehicle. 

Several other stories in the article are deliberately written in such a way as to lead the reader to a preconceived conclusion.

I don't see a problem with honest "Safe Storage" laws, but in many cases, they are just used to break-down any resistance to gun control laws, or they are used to punish honest owners. Theft notification laws are a good example; these are being proposed because some folks will shoot someone during an argument, and then ditch the gun, and when the cops show up and ask where the pistol is that they bought last month, they tell the cops it was stolen. So the cops (through their friends in the legislature) try to impose a 24-hour mandatory reporting period for all gun thefts to close this little-used loophole. But what ends up happening is folks who are victims of a crime (their gun IS stolen) get victimized again by the law when their gun gets stolen unknowingly and they don't report it. It gets used in a crime, the gun is traced back to the owner, the cops show up at the previous owner's house and ask them where their gun is, they go looking for it and find it's gone, and the owner gets charged for not reporting it stolen (even though they didn't KNOW it was stolen, that is usually not a defense under these laws).


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Mine is never left in my vehicle unless I have to go into a place where it is illegal for me to carry. If left in the car, it is out of sight and the car is locked with the security system engaged.


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## Cait43 (Apr 4, 2013)

DJ Niner said:


> So the cops (through their friends in the legislature) try to impose a 24-hour mandatory reporting period for all gun thefts to close this little-used loophole. But what ends up happening is folks who are victims of a crime (their gun IS stolen) get victimized again by the law when their gun gets stolen unknowingly and they don't report it. It gets used in a crime, the gun is traced back to the owner, the cops show up at the previous owner's house and ask them where their gun is, they go looking for it and find it's gone, and the owner gets charged for not reporting it stolen (even though they didn't KNOW it was stolen, that is usually not a defense under these laws).







​


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

RK3369 said:


> Mine is never left in my vehicle unless I have to go into a place where it is illegal for me to carry. If left in the car, it is out of sight and the car is locked with the security system engaged.


How many people ignore car alarms in parking lots? Yes we do the best we can to obey the law, but that seldom protect us.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

tony pasley said:


> How many people ignore car alarms in parking lots? Yes we do the best we can to obey the law, but that seldom protect us.


True, but short of installing a small safe in the car (which I'm not about to do) it's as secure as I can make it at that time. Best answer is to make concealed carry legal everywhere, but then you start trampling on other people's property rights to not have you carry on their property.


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## gwpercle (Jun 8, 2018)

paratrooper said:


> The day cops stop having firearms stolen from their cars, we can then focus on the general public.
> 
> It's definitely not a good idea to leave a firearm in a vehicle unattended. I've done it, but only for short periods of time. Still not a legit excuse though.
> 
> Still, many do, and will continue to do so.


My wise old grand daddy would say " Them folks be acting the fool." and he would be right !
A car is the easiest thing there is to break into and guns are gold to a criminal.....DO NOT leave a gun in a car...that's foolish !
Gary


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## Goldwing (Nov 5, 2014)

Dogs, children, and guns should never be left in a car. Plan ahead and avoid trouble for you and everyone else.

GW


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

gwpercle said:


> My wise old grand daddy would say " Them folks be acting the fool." and he would be right !
> A car is the easiest thing there is to break into and guns are gold to a criminal.....DO NOT leave a gun in a car...that's foolish !
> Gary


Let's see, Carry a gun into a hospital, church, court, police station and break the law? And possible end up with a felony conviction which in many states would preclude you from ever owning a gun again, Or leave it locked in your car even though it ends up stolen, but you have not broken the law. What would you choose?


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

There are times when you simply should not have a handgun on your person. Chances are, you drove a vehicle to get to that place, whatever / wherever it may be. 

Lock it up in your vehicle. There are ways to make sure it's there when you return. You just need to get smart about it.


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## RK3369 (Aug 12, 2013)

Agreed, but you also have to balance the cost to insure it is there when you return with the cost of the weapon to begin with. I’m not going to spend $500 to secure a $300 handgun. Sorry, just not worth it. And if I thought there was a larger social mission to prevent it,from being stolen, I guess i’d Have to ask Obama and his cronies what they were up to with fast and furious?


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## otisroy (Jan 5, 2014)

My buddy told me a about a lockbox his brother had in his Jeep. I think I'm going to get something like this for those times you can't take it with you:

https://www.amazon.com/Bestop-42640...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B004BWU8H8

I know it's not perfect but it's good enough to deter a window smasher looking for things to pilfer.


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## Bisley (Aug 24, 2008)

If we have arrived at a point where it is necessary to prosecute law abiding people for being the victim of theft, we are in a death spiral into lunacy, from which we will never recover.

Civil suits that punish people for obvious negligence make sense, but criminalizing stupidity is a very slippery slope.


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## tony pasley (May 6, 2006)

This type of law is to threaten legal gun owners, it is also called intimidation they know they can repeal the 2nd. so put all types of laws, taxes and fees to limit those who are armed. Us poor unwashed masses don't need to have firearms, in their fantasy world.


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## otisroy (Jan 5, 2014)

Bisley said:


> If we have arrived at a point where it is necessary to prosecute law abiding people for being the victim of theft, we are in a death spiral into lunacy, from which we will never recover.


Yes. This.

A few years back I recovered a couple M35A2s(deuce and a halfs) from the Army Guard and had one parked in my driveway with the steering wheel chained. For those that drove them in the military or have owned one, they often have a length of chain welded to the floor. Almost all military vehicles have a keyless start AKA turn on the electrical and press the starter button. Who wants to look for keys when the SHTF? The simple idea is that you can padlock the chain through the wheel and prevent a thief from going anywhere but mostly the direction the wheel is locked.

My mother-in-law was also my neighbor and started badgering me to rivet a hasp on the door. I had the hasp on hand but didn't really want to do it in the dark and planned on doing it the next morning. My in-laws having owned a small business were acutely aware of liability issues so they started regaling me with tales of theft victims being held liable for the actions of the thieves after stealing their cars from their driveways because their doors weren't locked. All I could think was, "Man, society is broken" while I riveted a hasp on in the glare of a shop light.

Common sense has left the building in our 'civilized' society.


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## MoMan (Dec 27, 2010)

The criminal here is the thief, not the legal gun owner. When will we begin to push back on this type of lunacy? Why are we made out to be the criminal when we became the victim? What is wrong with this Country?? 

What is it going to be next; "Oh, you inadvertently dropped your wallet in your vehicle before you got out, and your vehicle was broken into. SORRY we can't do anything to help you with the fraudulent charges on your card"!! Give me a break!!

The criminal is the person who broke into the vehicle, PERIOD!!


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

As long as there are law-abiding citizens, criminals will continue to flourish. I myself, make it as hard on a criminal to be a criminal. That is to say I don't make it easy for him or her.

My cars are locked up while parked on my driveway. If we drive somewhere, our vehicle is *NEVER* left unlocked. Windows rolled up tight, even on the hottest days.

We don't leave home with our house unlocked. I know some that do. We don't leave items lying here and about, out in the open. We don't leave our storage sheds unlocked. More than not, do though.

I don't leave valuable items in our vehicles in plain view. They are concealed and secured as best I can. I could go on and on, but I won't.

Bottom line is this. Take an active role in protecting what is yours. Make that extra effort that it may require. 49 years of driving, and only *once* have I had a vehicle of mine broken into. Nothing was taken and I was only about 20 seconds away from physically catching the low life SOB. Probably a good thing for me that I didn't.

Being able to say that wasn't by luck. It was by purposeful design. Never have had our home broken into. Again, not by luck. Never been the victim of a criminal, other than the one vehicle issue mentioned above.

It takes work, and a lot of it to not become a victim. It takes planning and awareness, and being willing to put forth that extra effort. Emphasis on the awareness part. That's what everything else is based on.

I've been retired now for 8.5 yrs. I think about all this now more than ever. It's pretty much on my waking mind. My wife kids me from time to time, asking me what I'm thinking about. I'll tell her and she'll roll her eyes, as if I'm wasting my time. But.....she's also told me that she feels as safe as anyone could, anywhere, anytime, or anyplace, and she appreciates that.

Yes, criminals are always going to be criminals. I just plan to make it as tough for them to be one as I can. :smt033


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## Ingramite (Jun 9, 2018)

A handcuff passed through the trigger guard and seat rail (the one bolted to the floor) will keep your weapon secured and out of sight.
Could a determined thief defeat this? Sure, but I believe you would have a reasonable argument that you made more than a reasonable attempt to secure the weapon in your locked vehicle.

For the record, I don't like leaving a weapon in a vehicle. I'm only offering an alternative that has proven useful for me in the past.


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