# Had me Some Trouble Tonight



## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Of course, it was a wonderful day to have an issue, too. I attended the funeral for the co-worker who passed away on Monday. So this evening after the funeral and the service at the burial site, her father took everyone out to dinner. After dinner I sat out in the parking lot to cool off a little bit and was waiting for my friend (the co-worker's niece) to come out so we go back to her apartment for a while.

Anyway, I had chosen to sit in my passenger seat so I could see her when she came out of the restuarant, but due to it being so hot I kept the door open. As I'm sitting there a woman in a huge SUV decides she wants to drive across the parking lot through open spaces, and an open space was next to my car, so there she came. I saw her coming and pulled the door as closed as I could on short notice with my legs hanging out the side. Apparently I had not reacted fast enough for Queen B****. She didn't hit my car or anything, and even if I hadn't pulled the door shut, I wouldn't have been in her way. 

But she slams on the breaks and jumps down from her SUV (she almost needed a parachute to do so). I'm thinking, oh good (sarcastic). She comes around to where I am, screaming at the top of her lungs (and I have no idea what she was saying) and waving her arms all around. She actually tried to pull me out of my car! At this point, the family of the deceased is starting to leave the restuarant, and I'm hoping to God I don't have to pull on this girl in front of 150 mourners. But she starts trying to pull me out of the car and she's clawing at me with her manicured talons, so I reached under the seat and pulled out my Bersa. 

She backs up and makes a scene screaming, "She's got a gun! She's got a gun!" About six other people who'd seen this happening chimed in, "So do we!" At least one other person drew his gun at this point because she made like she was going to jump at me (all this time I'm still seated, she really did a great job of yanking me out of the car) and she turned and ran off.

She left her child in the backseat of her SUV. The cops had a great time with this.


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## sje0123 (Jul 6, 2006)

Road rage sucks.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

More crap happens because of road rage. I'm thinking we need background checks before getting a drivers license if you need one for a gun!


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Glad U made it thru that fine 

While the other person started it, I think the gun was unnecessary - Hope you don't mind me saying that...

Here in TX, if you did that, you probably would have been arrested. The woman was not using a weapon, even if she was instigating a fight with you needlessly. 

Unfortunately, even if I am getting punched in the face, I can't pull my gun unless the fight crosses the threashhold where I may be killed. Granted, I have 2 bad knees and would have a hard time running away. So, I might have more leeway than someone else. But, that's just my 2 cents. 

We can all agree that the woman may have gotten what she deserved. But, that's not always the legal thing.


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## L8models (May 5, 2006)

Wow! I'm glad you and your crowd are alright. Your story made mine last night seem like a middle school argument...We all live in a very evil and unstable society and things like this can happen to any of us. It's up to us to handle these situations the best we can.


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> Glad U made it thru that fine
> 
> While the other person started it, I think the gun was unnecessary - Hope you don't mind me saying that...
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that you could defend yourself or others from "serious bodily injury or death" in Tx.Who is going to decide when you are in danger of serious bodily injury if you wait till your dead to present your sidearm??


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

I've been taught that getting punched in the face 1x doesn't rise to the level of pulling out your gun to shoot someone. In TX, if U pull it out, it needs to be at the level where U would shoot the person. Now, U may not need to, but if it isn't at that level, U could get in trouble for brandishing (or worse).

Unfortunately, while she was being threatened by that woman, the truth is that no blows had been inflicted, and the woman has no visible weapon. To pull the gun out at that point.... That was not serious bodily injury yet.

Now, granted, in todays world, a woman has more latitude than a man when it comes to these situations. The police will treat a woman who pulled the gun differently than a man, unfortaunetly. And, nothing wrong w/ taking advantage of that. But, I have had men on probation for similiar scenarios. May not always agree with their prosecution, when the whole thing is taken into act. But, thats the way the law works sometimes.

Remember... I work in the legal field, and I look at things in that light.. Which is good for me, because it keeps my butt out of trouble since I use as much prudence and avoidance as possible. So, I don't mean to come across as judgemental to Sucklead. I hope she doesn't take offense. I'm justs aying that given the facts as they are presented in the 1st post, at that particular point in time, I would not have pulled a gun. And, in doing so, there was a very decent risk that she could have been arrested herself.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Well, the problem lies here: what about those nails? Now, I know it is funny to think about. But this girl was drawing blood on my neck and arms and she was using her nails as a weapon. She even went for my eyes a few times, and it was by the grace of God that I have quick reflexes. The cops who responded had told me the same thing, that her nails, in this situation, were weapons. The other gentleman who drew his gun was ok as well because he saw me being attacked. But, on my end, when I did tell the cop I'd taken my gun out, he told me that due to the cuts I'd recieved they imagine (and soon found out for sure) that the nails could be considered weapons when used in the way she was using them. Serious bodily injury was very possible there. I was trying to keep myself in the car and trying to keep her from getting to my eyes at the same time. And she was trying like nobodies business to get to my eyes.


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## L8models (May 5, 2006)

In North Carolina, you go by the Escalation Of Force.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, U are now giving us a bit more info and details than U did in the very first post... Remember... we only have your own words to imagine this entire scenario. U didn't put all of those details in the 1st post.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

Shipwreck said:


> Well, U are now giving us a bit more info and details than U did in the very first post... Remember... we only have your own words to imagine this entire scenario. U didn't put all of those details in the 1st post.


I know, I tend to do that, but I was starting to fear getting too long winded. And I keep forgetting guys don't usually get into chick fights. LOL! Girls usually know right away that chicks use their nails and go for the eyes, like cats. I don't have nails, so I go low in fist fights instead (like I get into so many anyway, LOL! This was my first since 7th grade!). But women usually go for the hair and eyes in fights. Sorry about that, I take that sort of info for granted sometimes.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

True... But, bring the scenario 1 step further. What if that lady hadn't have backed off when she saw your gun and charged U again. U would have had to shoot her. At that point, I would not wanna be the guy who has to convince a grand jury or a jury that I felt justified to shoot based off of long nails that very well may have very well been a decent weapon.

I think a maglight whack :mrgreen: or a kick or running would have been what I may have done. Then again, its easy for all of us to armchair quarterback this scenario after the fact. So, for that I apologize. I was not there. No one but U was. So, I don't mean to judge U, and really am not. I'm just hoping that if something like this happened again, maybe U can find another way to handle it.


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## L8models (May 5, 2006)

Well, I know this situation involved two females. But as a guy that has been in his share of fights, I would never even think about pulling a gun. I much rather try to get away so the other person wouldn't have a chance to grab it. My first priority would be to retreat if all possible. Now, I know if the person was beating the imortal shit outta me, that would be a totally different scenerio.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

L8models said:


> Well, I know this situation involved two females. But as a guy that has been in his share of fights, I would never even think about pulling a gun. I much rather try to get away so the other person wouldn't have a chance to grab it. My first priority would be to retreat if all possible. Now, I know if the person was beating the imortal shit outta me, that would be a totally different scenerio.


In this case, there was nowhere to go. I was stuck in the passenger seat of my car without my keys and the only exit was blocked by her. So escape was not going to happen.

And Ship, to yours also. I know you aren't judging. Unfortunetly, even if I hadn't gotten my gun, if she'd continued there would have been a shooting there tonight. And to be honest the last time I pulled my gun, which was during armored and the guy was wrestling with me and trying to get my gun (that one is a long, long story, but had I lost that wrestling match I would have been shot with my own gun, and several other people would have gotten shot as well), I pistol whipped the guy, which is probably what I would have done here, too. Granted, next time maybe there will be something else to grab, but there was nothing in my car aside from a doggie chew toy which would have done nothing at all and I was not in a possition to use my fists effectively (I was in the car leaning away, so I was bent over the center console almost lieing down). But I honestly probably would have bashed her over the head with the gun and knocked her out like I did last time. I never pointed the gun, and in my possition hitting her with it would probably have been easier.


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

Well here in Florida when she tried to drag you out of the car, she done stepped over the line. We do not have to retreat if we are in the home or car. Plus how was Sucklead supposed to know she wasn't being car jacket? Very possible. It would have been a mess I am sure. In the long run you would have prevailed. IMHO.


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

Baldy said:


> ...when she tried to drag you out of the car, she done stepped over the line. We do not have to retreat if we are in the home or car. Plus how was Sucklead supposed to know she wasn't being car jacket? ....


+1 Your vehicle is an extension of your home in cases such as this, in Indiana anyway....


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

In North Carolina you have the "Duty to Retreat" law. You can not protect your personal property, including your car, by pulling your gun. You can only pull your weapon if your life is at risk, by deadly force. You can only meet deadly force, with deadly force. If the BG has no weapon, you aren't supposed to pull out your gun. By law, you are to "retreat" and call the police... The only exception is, if you are cornered and you have no way of escape.

It's lame, I know... but it's the law.


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## Charlie (May 13, 2006)

scooter said:


> I was under the impression that you could defend yourself or others from "serious bodily injury or death" in Tx.Who is going to decide when you are in danger of serious bodily injury if you wait till your dead to present your sidearm??


I'm with Scooter. Not sure of the laws and how they are interpreted in your state, but I think you were in the right. Since you were the only one present at the beginning of this "assault" cops and others would have to depend upon your interpretation. Remember, her car is also classified as a deadly weapon. I think you would have no problems with this scenario in Texas. Just my $.02.


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## Mr. P (Sep 16, 2006)

jwkimber45 said:


> +1 Your vehicle is an extension of your home in cases such as this, in Indiana anyway....


Here in Ga too. We also have the "stand your ground" legislation like Fla.


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## john doe. (Aug 26, 2006)

I think you did good and I’m glad things didn’t have to escalate any furthur. You’re safe but maybe a little scratched up. Those wonds will heal- Unless you get cat scratch fever.


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## jwkimber45 (May 6, 2006)

js said:


> In North Carolina you have the "Duty to Retreat" law. You can not protect your personal property, including your car, by pulling your gun. You can only pull your weapon if your life is at risk, by deadly force. You can only meet deadly force, with deadly force. If the BG has no weapon, you aren't supposed to pull out your gun. By law, you are to "retreat" and call the police... The only exception is, if you are cornered and you have no way of escape.
> 
> It's lame, I know... but it's the law.


"F" that!! I know it's the law in some areas, but its dumb. Sure, I'll turn and run, I mean retreat, and let the perp shoot me in the back with the gun i didn't know he had......makes no sense. I'm glad I live in a state that "allows" me to defend myself when the scum of the earth threatens me.....


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## Baldy (Jun 21, 2006)

I am to old and sick to run. So I guess I'll finish off my day in a 8x10. The story will make good bird cage litter.


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## Maximo (May 26, 2006)

Charlie said:


> I'm with Scooter. Not sure of the laws and how they are interpreted in your state, but I think you were in the right. Since you were the only one present at the beginning of this "assault" cops and others would have to depend upon your interpretation. Remember, her car is also classified as a deadly weapon. I think you would have no problems with this scenario in Texas. Just my $.02.


I am with Charlie on this one. Most CHL instructors in Texas are a little paranoid about teaching some things. In my class they made us scared to death to ever even accidentally flash our gun in public. The law actually clearly states the "intentional" failure to conceal. They are just as paranoid when it comes to teaching, when you can draw your weapon.

Now as to Suckleads situation if it had taken place in Texas, I think she would be ok. Now any situation where a CHL holder pulls a gun is going to be put up for scrutiny by the officer on the scene, if one was called. _Texas PC 9.22- Necessity Conduct is justified if: (1) the person reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm; then PC 9.22 (3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear._

Our laws in Texas are a little confusing since Texas does not eliminate laws they amend them two paragraphs later. I have a friend who is a lawyer (he does not deal with ccw laws though) however he understands the way the laws are written better than I. I also have other friends and family that are LEO they all say the same thing. Never take an ass kicking! Nothing prepares you for getting hit in the face by a closed fist, it hurts like hell and you can lose some of your senses and if you do, you may loose your gun to your opponent after one punch. If you're a father and your kids are with you, they are now left defenseless and the other guy has your gun. Now, if you don't know, or, see a punch coming it is a mute point. This is also why a disabled or elderly person may have more leeway when it comes to, when to pull their weapon.

It is good to civilly discuss these kinds of things because one person's answer is almost always going to be a little different than another's in discussing this type of scenario. If it had been me, and I had seen a car driving in that manner I would have just closed the door as the car drove up and locked the door, and gone from there, but that is just me. I don't think Sucklead did anything wrong she was being attacked and she defended herself. If it had been me and another dude, I don't know for sure what I would have done given the same situation. However if my son was with me and this happened I will not allow you to get your hands on me. I may have to justify why I pulled my gun in court but my son and I will both be in court and not dead.


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## DWARREN123 (May 11, 2006)

Just a plain ole idjit!


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## scooter (May 9, 2006)

Maximo said:


> I may have to justify why I pulled my gun in court but my son and I will both be in court and not dead.


+100, I'd rather pay a vulture(lawyer) to do the quick footwork in court than chance my old bum knees in a death dance.


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

jwkimber45 said:


> "F" that!! I know it's the law in some areas, but its dumb. Sure, I'll turn and run, I mean retreat, and let the perp shoot me in the back with the gun i didn't know he had......makes no sense.


Oh, I totally agree.


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## SuckLead (Jul 4, 2006)

The laws in NC, in some cases, are unclear. Even the cops who showed up agreed that I was right. I was cornered in my car and between her and her car with someone in the car she had been driving. It was her kid, but her kid wasn't a baby, she was around 10, which the cop said would have also been a threat. There is the nails thing and the cuts around my eyes from them, also, which the cops agreed would make them believe she was trying to cause serious bodily harm. Whether she was armed or not, I have no idea. All I knew was there was no way out.


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## Thor (May 11, 2006)

I, too, am a gimpy bastard. I can't run. And, were someone to punch me in the face, they could cause me "great bodily harm" because of neck problems. Damned right I would pull a gun on anybody that attacked me. If pulling the gun was enough to stop the attack, then all is well. If that doesn't work, I would be forced to fire. Minnesota has a "duty to retreat" clause for us permit holders, but if retreat is not possible, then it's the permit holder's call. Hopefully, we will get a "stand your ground" law in the next couple of years. That'll take the sting out of a defensive gun use.

Sucklead, I hope you press assault & battery charges against her !!!


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## js (Jun 29, 2006)

Thor said:


> Hopefully, we will get a "stand your ground" law in the next couple of years. That'll take the sting out of a defensive gun use.


+1 Hopefully NC will have it one day as well...


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## TexasFats (Sep 25, 2006)

If I recall correctly, the first fatal DGU in Dallas involved an individual reaching into the open window of a car and pummeling the driver after a minor accident. The driver eventually pulled his piece and burned the assailant down. The Dallas County DA was going to put the CHL holder in jail for a long time, but the grand jury returned a No-Bill. The grand jury felt that the DGU was justified. Of course, the Dallas DA had bitterly opposed shall-issue CHL. After the No-Bill, the case was dropped.


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## Shipwreck (Jan 26, 2006)

Yes, I heard about that case. The guy's car was boxed in, though, and he was also seatbelted in the car, if I remember correctly.


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