# You draw... what then?



## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Stemming from an incident I was involved in years ago and the recent conversation about College campus carry (say that ten times fast), I thought I'd pose the question to stimulate some thought.

Let's say you are involved in a situation which resulted in you having to draw your pistol, (either having to fire or not) and the result is the person you drew on is either no longer threatening or down.

Now the fun begins. In a time where guns are "scary" enough as it is for some people, and more people are carrying them, what do you do when there are multiple "good guys" with guns? 

How do you handle the aftermath? 
How do you let people know that you're the good guy?

if you aren't the first person to draw...

How do you handle more than one gun on the scene?
How do you determine who's a good guy and who's not?


This topic isn't about, nor should it be about, "who's gonna be Rambo?" It's about food for thought. If you only have half the answers to the situation, is it better to not add to the problem? 

Is it better to leave well enough alone?
Is it better to assist someone who's had to draw/fire on someone?
Is it better to get others the hell outta the area?


I just think back to the incident that I had, and wonder how much I looked like the agressor to those who may not have seen the whole incident go down. The thought occured to me that what if another CCW holder thought I was the bad guy? That's what prompted this post, again, not who want's to be Rambo. Discuss.

Zhur


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

> If you only have half the answers to the situation, is it better to not add to the problem?


My immediate thought is that if I didn't observe enough of the situation to know which side was good or bad, I wouldn't get involved. I might "duck and cover" and and wait till the coast is clear to either get out of there or offer assistance (first aid, statement to police, etc) but I wouldn't start shooting.

If I were a member of a group (family, friends, etc) that was under or threatened with attack I might change my answer, but I wouldn't jump in the middle of a scuffle.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

kev74 said:


> but I wouldn't jump in the middle of a scuffle.


Agreed. If I don't know the full story and two people have each other in their sights, I'm watching and making sure the family is out of the way. I'm always reminded about a story or CCW instructor told of a "bum" being held at gunpoint by a CCW holder because the "bum" had a "business man" held at gunpoint. The "bum" was an undercover and the "business man" was a drug dealer. The CCW holder didn't see the whole thing, but decided to play LEO.

I honestly don't know how I'd react if I was the first to draw and then more guns were drawn. Probably first soil myself, then back down since the guy I had to draw on was probably looking at the business end of another gun, and hope everyone else is not trigger happy? :smt102


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Todd,
That's kinda where I'm going with the question here. Your instructors example is a good point, but the UC has a way to identify himself, whereas a civilian does not, short of a reassuring face and an "I'm a good guy" statement.

Not so much about if you'd jump in the middle, just a concern of if you were the first to draw on someone, what happens afterwards. I think a cell phone in your off hand after the situation is slowing down might detract some of the "bad guy" vibe. Telling someone to call the police... those kinda actions would help to establish who the bad guy is and who isn't.... What else?

I could tell you what happened in my situation, but I doubt there were as many people with CWP's then as there are now. It was just over a decade ago, but it still seems like yesterday at times.

Zhur


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

No longer threatening or down does not in itself indicate inability to become a threat again.

I believe, if I was already involved for whatever reason, I would remain at the ready and call for surrounding people to call Police, Ambulance etc. If the reason for my involvement had clearly vacated the area or I saw Law Enforcement approaching I would re-holster. I would hope my request that help be called would identify me as a semi good guy.

Who is the good guy? 

1. If the threat is over the good guy quits shooting.
2. The good guy may have a gun at low ready as would I but it is not pointing directly at me.

Becoming involved in the first place would require a threat towards my self, family or associates. I would expect the "Good Guy's" in close proximity, myself included, to have their weapons at the ready but not threatening (pointed at) anyone unless clearly threatened by them.


Observation of an individual randomly shooting up a Mall or crowd and traveling in my direction would be viewed as a direct threat to me and mine. If unable to vacate the area I would take what ever action necessary and possible to protect me and mine.

Q Is it better to leave well enough alone?
A If you don't know what is going down do not become involved unless absolutely necessary for your protection. (run away, run away) Monty Python got some things right.

Q Is it better to assist someone who's had to draw/fire on someone?
A Only after you know they are deserving of assistance. Ie. Good Guy

Q Is it better to get others the hell outta the area?
A When circumstances allow.

Q what if another CCW holder thought I was the bad guy?
A I would assume that all active participants were until clear evidence to the contrary is available. That does not mean I would shoot all participants. I would remain ready to however.

My opinion for what it's worth. :mrgreen:


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## twodogs (Oct 15, 2007)

I like that you threw this out there. It makes people think about the responsibility that goes with carrying.


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

zhurdan said:


> I could tell you what happened in my situation, but I doubt there were as many people with CWP's then as there are now. It was just over a decade ago, but it still seems like yesterday at times.
> 
> Zhur


Love to hear it, either out here or PM.

I guess we all could resort to carrying one of these:










:anim_lol::anim_lol:


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Yeah... was hoping to stimulate some conversation. As I said, I know what happened to me, and I sure wish I'd had a few pointers. I did pretty much everything right, up until the moment I pissed myself in the troopers car. You can't be ready for that, I tell ya!

I started the process before I even got out of the car. I was with my brother, handed him the phone and told him to call it in and tell them what I was wearing and that I was a good guy with a gun. As I passed one car, I told them to call the police too.

The one thing I remember the most is my total inattention to everyone once I had my gun drawn. It was as if I had tunnel vision. I didn't come out of that until I had the guy on the ground. Then it got really loud and almost confusing as to what I was hearing. Funny thing is, I distinctly remember hearing certain conversations from the gathering crowd. I had a pretty silly conversation with one of the police as to who the bad guy was and what they wanted me to do with my gun. Silly... I was concerned about tossing my expensive pistol on the asphault. I'm just glad the situation got resolved without having the press the bang button.

It's good to think about things out loud, even if it's remote that it'll happen. You'd be surprized what comes back to you in a moment of distress.

Zhur


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Todd said:


> Love to hear it, either out here or PM.
> 
> I guess we all could resort to carrying one of these:
> 
> ...


I knew someone would do it, but I didn't think it'd be you!!! hehehee:smt171:smt027:numbchuck:

Zhur


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## tekhead1219 (May 16, 2008)

TOF said:


> No longer threatening or down does not in itself indicate inability to become a threat again.
> 
> I believe, if I was already involved for whatever reason, I would remain at the ready and call for surrounding people to call Police, Ambulance etc. If the reason for my involvement had clearly vacated the area or I saw Law Enforcement approaching I would re-holster. I would hope my request that help be called would identify me as a semi good guy.
> 
> Who is the good guy?


And to stimulate some additional conversation...what happens if the "other guy" thinks faster than you do and requests someone to "please help and call the police" before you can think of it?:watching:


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

tekhead,
I'm assuming that when you say the "other guy", you mean the bad guy. From my personal experience the "bad guy" was so entranced with what he was doing, he didn't even see my pistol at low ready when he turned to face me. (he was busy bashing out a van window). Once I got his attention, he looked me right in the eyes and didn't notice the gun as he approached me with the tire iron until I raised it to chest level and yelled at him that he needed to stop, or he was going to get shot. A moment of clarity washed over his face. In the incident that I was involved in, there were plenty of witnesses, none of which wanted anything to do with the situation. The reason for bringing up this topic is because there are a metric Shart-ton more people with CWP's and probably a lot more that carry now that don't have permits and that probably have little to no training whatsoever.

I think that once the biggest portion of an "incident" happens, it'd be prudent to raise your off hand and start communicating to those around you that "it's ok... call the police...I'm a good guy". As silly as that sounds, they'll probably communicate that same information over the phone, along with "Oh my Gosh, he's got a gigantic shiny pistol!!" 

So, how else do you communicate that you are a good guy? (and no stinking badges!!!! hehe)

Zhur


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

zhurdan said:


> I knew someone would do it, but I didn't think it'd be you!!! hehehee:smt171:smt027:numbchuck:


Don't play innocent. You were the one who sent me the picture of your badge. Oops! Was I supposed to keep that a secret? :smt083


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Zhur,

I am not trying to lecture or otherwise annoy you but are you telling us that you witnessed someone bashing a window in on a van and you drew your weapon and approached him? 

Unless you or one of your relatives were in the van, I am guessing that law enforcement did not think you did the right thing. 

I am not sure what the laws a like in your state, but around here a CCW does not give you some sort of power to stop criminal acts.

What you did was noble, but not the right thing for someone with a CCW permit to do in my humble opinion.

Note: To be fair to you, I do not know the entire story so do not take my input too seriously.


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Ptar,

And you'd be correct, if I went from my car flailing my gun around like a crazy person. The incident didn't involve me drawing my weapon on the guy because he was bashing the window out... although I may have put it that way. I was yelling at the guy to stop, while standing about 30 feet away from him. I had my hand on my pistol and when I said a few choice words to the guy, (who said he was going to kill his ex wife) he turned and started approaching me. That's when I drew my pistol. Sorry, it's been a decade and some so I think the way in which I stated it was more to illustrate the point of the topic at hand. The fact is/was, that he didn't see the pistol as he approached me. He got about turned around when he started in with the "I'll F'n kill you too" talk and I drew to low ready. He didn't see the gun as he was fixated on my eyes. For the record (so as I don't have to explain it later) I took two or three steps back as he approached. Once I raised the pistol from low ready to chest high, he saw it and I distinctly remember him doing a little "wobble wobble" in the knees. He promptly started listening to me, got on the ground, and I kept him there until authorities arrived.

I'll admit, whole heartedly, it was not the smartest thing I've ever done, but at the same time, I watched people simply drive on, offering no help to the woman (who also come to find out, had a child in the back of the van), people just drove on by. He'd have killed her and probaby worse yet, the child in the back. After listening to him bash that car for about 45 seconds, and say the things he did, all I wanted to do was get him away from the van. I'll be the first one to admit, and may have already done so here earlier in another thread, that having a gun definately made it easier to get out of the car in the first place. I do think I'd have got out and done something regardless of having a gun though, even if it was drive up to the bugger and piss him off and get his attention away from the van. I just don't know that I could have lived with myself if I'd drove on and heard later that he killed her.

The officers there, after about 45 minutes in the back of a patrol car, told me that I was lucky, on many accounts. That I didn't get shot by the officers, that I didn't get hit with the tire iron, that I didn't slip and fall, lose my gun and arm a whacko... lots of things could have went wrong, but they didn't. Thank God for that. Sorry for the confusion. I'd be the last person to try and dole out bad or illegal information. It was just the short version of the incident and to help relate the fact that bad guys probably are very intently focused on their bad deeds of the moment and probably not thinking about "how can I turn this around and look like a good guy".



Zhur


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

I am so glad I added the last note to my previous post. Now that I have the whole story, I think you did well, all things considered. Yes, a lot could have gone wrong but your intend was noble and that goes a long way. I hope the police officers recognized that as well.

Had that been me or my relative in that van, I would have added you to the Christmas card list for life. :smt023


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

tekhead1219 said:


> And to stimulate some additional conversation...what happens if the "other guy" thinks faster than you do and requests someone to "please help and call the police" before you can think of it?:watching:


Reinforce his request with a "Please do". You would just have to let time solve things if possible. If other Good Guys ask you to put the gun down you probably ought to do so as long as the BG is incapacitated. I would not be in that position without significant reason to do so. We can't forget however as in the words of an unidentified Philosopher "Shit Happens"


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## littlefuzz (Oct 29, 2008)

Speaking of throwing an expensive gun on the asphalt, would it be acceptable to reholster, raise your hands in the air and let an officer take the gun from the holster instead of scratching up a nice gun? Seems like if you are rehostering it would not be threatening to them.

Also I think as far as the storyline goes you done a great job and if more people were that straight foward there would be less crime. Just imagine a world where all law abiding citizens were armed, the only reason we'd need cops was to write speeding tickets


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

littlefuzz said:


> Speaking of throwing an expensive gun on the asphalt, would it be acceptable to reholster, raise your hands in the air and let an officer take the gun from the holster instead of scratching up a nice gun? Seems like if you are rehostering it would not be threatening to them.


I can't speak for all cops but I would not have accepted reholstering. If I ordered a suspect with a weapon to drop it, they needed to drop it, end of story. Do you really think any police officer in their right mind would give a crap if someone's guns got messed up? If the officer has a reason to make a suspect drop a gun, they probably do not know if the person is a good guy. If the officer knew that he/she would not order the suspect to drop the weapon in the first place.



littlefuzz said:


> Just imagine a world where all law abiding citizens were armed, the only reason we'd need cops was to write speeding tickets.


I hope that was meant as a joke. Law enforcement officers do a bit more that does not require a firearm than write tickets.


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## littlefuzz (Oct 29, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> I can't speak for all cops but I would not have accepted reholstering. If I ordered a suspect with a weapon to drop it, they needed to drop it, end of story. Do you really think any police officer in their right mind would give a crap if someone's guns got messed up? If the officer has a reason to make a suspect drop a gun, they probably do not know if the person is a good guy. If the officer knew that he/she would not order the suspect to drop the weapon in the first place.
> 
> I hope that was meant as a joke. Law enforcement officers do a bit more that does not require a firearm than write tickets.


Didn't mean to offend, it was meant as a joke (I thought it was kinda funny). But lets say I had a gun I spent $1600 on I think I would at least set it down slowly, I ain't throwing it on the pavement. I don't think that would give an officer a reason to open fire.


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## kev74 (Mar 22, 2008)

littlefuzz said:


> I don't think that would give an officer a reason to open fire.


That would likely depend on what happened in the previous few minutes.

Its only a gun. The $1600 would pale in comparison to the cost of your emergency room visit when the officer shoots it out of your hand. :mrgreen:


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## bprince04305 (Oct 14, 2008)

I know my gun would go down real fast if a cop here were to ask. Especially considering in miami where i live the mention of a gun means a minimum of three squad cars showing up guns drawn. Zhur u did good!


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## kg333 (May 19, 2008)

kev74 said:


> That would likely depend on what happened in the previous few minutes.
> 
> Its only a gun. The $1600 would pale in comparison to the cost of your emergency room visit when the officer shoots it out of your hand. :mrgreen:


Or funeral costs, if the cop follows the usual advice not to shoot for limbs. 

KG


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

littlefuzz said:


> Speaking of throwing an expensive gun on the asphalt, would it be acceptable to reholster, raise your hands in the air and let an officer take the gun from the holster instead of scratching up a nice gun? Seems like if you are rehostering it would not be threatening to them.


If a LEO tells you to drop the gun, the entire point of the command is to separate you from the gun. Re-holstering the gun and you keeping it in your possession is not what he wants. If you're looking down the business end of a LEO's gun, I don't care of he wants you to do the Can-Can, comply. However, I do think that moving very slowly and putting the gun on the ground and then backing away would be acceptable.


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## DevilsJohnson (Oct 21, 2007)

It's a good reason to not have a 1600 dollar gun as a carry weapon.


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

Sounds like you did the right thing to me Zhur. Well done. I'd like to think I would do the same providing my mind registered what was going on fast enough. Tricky thing involving ones self in others quarrels though, especially domestics. Different from defending yourself from a direct assault. Doesn't mean as good citizens we shouldnt come to the aid of others in need but it does get more complicated. Clearly communicating to the BG, crowd or any others involved is very smart and was already mentioned.

As for multiple guns, if I new they were police I would obey their commands to the letter or premptively holster or place my weapon on the ground before being given a command. Unknowns popping out of the wood work with guns on scene is a whole other can of worms. Depends on circumstances. Their body language, words and actions would dictate my next move. Meaning are they gunning for me or does thier actions suggest they are trying to support me. I know I wouldnt give up the initiative until I sorted that out. Thanks for sharing your story and I agree that by doing so and discussing it we can all learn some things.


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## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

Todd said:


> If a LEO tells you to drop the gun, the entire point of the command is to separate you from the gun. Re-holstering the gun and you keeping it in your possession is not what he wants. If you're looking down the business end of a LEO's gun, I don't care of he wants you to do the Can-Can, comply. However, I do think that moving very slowly and putting the gun on the ground and then backing away would be acceptable.


Yea, what he said. From the police person's point of view, they don't know if you're licensed or not... and at that point, don't care. Do what they want, drop the gun and back away/ on the knees/ whatever.

Personally, if I am ever in a situation where I have to draw my gun, and later the police show up, the last thing on my mind is "oh crap, my gun might get a scrath on it!" I am going to drop the sob and not care, and when I get it back from them, I will just view any potential scratches or blemishes as battle wounds and future story tellers.

I find it funny how people can buy a mil-spec firearm, that has been torture tested through and through, but are too upset to drop it a few feet when the police person tells you to (and they've probably got a gun on you in the process).


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Spartan said:


> I find it funny how people can buy a mil-spec firearm, that has been torture tested through and through, but are too upset to drop it a few feet when the police person tells you to (and they've probably got a gun on you in the process).


Spartan,
I can't agree with you more, but that doesn't detract from the fact that what you describe is exactly what went thru my head. Why did that pop in there at a time of high stress? I have no clue. (my carry gun at the time was a Kimber Custom II), either way, I still to this day don't understand why the thought of what would happen to my gun came from. Incidentally, it got scratched up anyways. I reholstered on the right, and got hit like a ton of bricks from the left. They jumped me and the bad guy, which I can't blame them for, then I sat in the back of a patrol car for a while.

It's silly what goes thru your mind when under stress.

Also, as a side note, I've said a few times that it was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done, and I still believe that. I'm just glad it turned out alright. BTW, the young lady moved far away and sent me flowers and a card every year on the anniversary for about 7 years. I don't know what happened to her after that. You wanna talk about a totally akward conversation with the wife every year... I got more flowers than my wife did for a while. (My wifes allergic and doesn't like them, I just thought that was funny)

Zhur


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

littlefuzz said:


> Didn't mean to offend, it was meant as a joke (I thought it was kinda funny).


No offense taken...well, maybe a little bit but I appreciate your reply. :smt023



littlefuzz said:


> But lets say I had a gun I spent $1600 on I think I would at least set it down slowly, I ain't throwing it on the pavement. I don't think that would give an officer a reason to open fire.


Like I said, most cops would not care how expensive your gun was, and if you were ordered to throw the weapon, there is a good chance you will get shot if you do not. Now, if the officer tells you to put the weapon down and you ask if you may place it on the ground rather than throw it, he/she might let you. I have allowed this before but then kicked the weapon away when I approached.

Like a few other already said, good reason to not carry a $1600 gun. :mrgreen:


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## Todd (Jul 3, 2006)

Ptarmigan said:


> I have allowed this before but then kicked the weapon away when I approached.


Moral of the story: If a LEO tells you to drop the gun, one way or another, the gun is going to get a little damage.


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## Spartan (Jan 1, 2007)

zhurdan said:


> Spartan,
> I can't agree with you more, but that doesn't detract from the fact that what you describe is exactly what went thru my head. Why did that pop in there at a time of high stress? I have no clue. (my carry gun at the time was a Kimber Custom II), either way, I still to this day don't understand why the thought of what would happen to my gun came from. Incidentally, it got scratched up anyways. I reholstered on the right, and got hit like a ton of bricks from the left. They jumped me and the bad guy, which I can't blame them for, then I sat in the back of a patrol car for a while.
> 
> Zhur


Oh, I wasn't referring to you personally, more of the person who thought of holstering his weapon rather than dropping it (which your follow up story proves isn't the best idea). I was speaking purely on theory, really, for I have never been in that situation... so take my words with a grain of salt. :smt033


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

TOF said:


> Who is the good guy?
> 
> 1. If the threat is over the good guy quits shooting.
> 2. The good guy may have a gun at low ready as would I but it is not pointing directly at me.


That's the key... The good guy stops shooting, and starts giving directions to others to call police/911. The bad guy either keeps shooting or bails...


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## niadhf (Jan 20, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Like I said, most cops would not care how expensive your gun was, and if you were ordered to throw the weapon, there is a good chance you will get shot if you do not. Now, if the officer tells you to put the weapon down and you ask if you may place it on the ground rather than throw it, he/she might let you. I have allowed this before but then kicked the weapon away when I approached.
> . :mrgreen:


My only concern here would be "what if all the safeties against fall (rpovided the weapon has them) fail and the damn thing fires on impact?" Then the bovine excrement will hit the rotary implement even harder.
but i think i would still drop it. Course i don't OWN any $1600 guns. Let alone Carry them regularly.:anim_lol:


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## Tuefelhunden (Nov 20, 2006)

I don't think your crazy Zhurdan for not wanting to drop your gun. Most of us enthusiasts take at least a measure of pride in our arms. I might have had that same thought. I also might think is it really very smart to toss a loaded handgun onto the pavement? It is not. I might think it, but I would still do it. Like Todd said, one way or the other that gun is going to go on the ground. I'd prefer not to go down with it the hard way.

I do wonder though if there has ever been a case were a police officer shouted freeze, drop the gun, the suspect dropped the gun on the ground, it went off and killed the suspect or discharged and struck the officer who issued the command. Wonder how that would read on the report. One thing is for certain. How bad would that suck in either scenario to be the suspect? When Murphy's law and Irony meet reality truely becomes stranger than fiction. Just a nugget from my slightly warped brain. :smt033


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## zhurdan (Mar 21, 2008)

Reminds me of a time I got pulled over by a State Trooper. I was headed to Wal-Mart to buy a new headlight because I noticed it had went out when I turned my lights on in the garage, had to go there anyways. About half way there, of course, I get pulled over for the burned out headlight. I mention to him that I have a "Permit to carry a handgun" (yeah, don't say "I have a handgun permit", it makes 'em a little edgy when they hear handgun first). He asked me where it was. I told him it was on my right hip and he asked me to slowly remove it and hand it to him. As I transferred it out of my right hand (index and thumb only) to my left hand, I instinctively ejected the magazine. About that point he asked me what I was doing. I said "I don't hand people loaded guns, I hope you don't mind if I clear it". He laughed and said to go ahead and clear it. We had a pretty funny conversation after that, right up until he issued a warning about the light. Heheheee.. oh well, can't win 'em all. No fine as long as I got it fixed and reported it fixed. 

Basically, (and now I shoot with him all the time) he was surprised that someone was more concerned with safety than with the officers orders. Autopilot takes over sometimes, even though I was being mindful to hold the gun in a non threatning manner, I still was compelled to clear that weapon. 

Zhur


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

Now, I have never understood the whole asking a legally armed person to hand over their weapon. If the person wanted to hurt me he/she could do so when handing it over. I was sure the person would not hurt me, why would I need him/her to hand it over? It will much safer staying in the holster.

If someone I trusted told me that they legally were carrying a sidearm, I would say "thanks for letting me know" and leave it at that.


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## HowardCohodas (Nov 16, 2008)

Ptarmigan said:


> Now, I have never understood the whole asking a legally armed person to hand over their weapon. If the person wanted to hurt me he/she could do so when handing it over. I was sure the person would not hurt me, why would I need him/her to hand it over? It will much safer staying in the holster.
> 
> If someone I trusted told me that they legally were carrying a sidearm, I would say "thanks for letting me know" and leave it at that.


I appreciate having an LEO on the forums I frequent to add some reality to some our illusions. Thank you for taking the time.

Also, thank you for your service. I appreciate those who devote themselves to the nations safety and to the public safety.


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## Ptarmigan (Jul 4, 2008)

HowardCohodas said:


> I appreciate having an LEO on the forums I frequent to add some reality to some our illusions. Thank you for taking the time.
> 
> Also, thank you for your service. I appreciate those who devote themselves to the nations safety and to the public safety


Thanks, Howard, you just made my week. I should mention that I am retired and have not been on the street for five years.

My service was not long but meant a lot ot me. I never got to serve in the military but feel that my law enforcement service made up for that a little bit.


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## Double0 (Nov 17, 2008)

I would just ask anyone if they'd like to get a beer.


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