# Best shotshell for home defense



## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I'll go ahead and say it so nobody else has to. Shot placement is key. Now, onto the question...soon I'm getting a 12-gauge shotgun for home defense, small game hunting, personal protection while I'm camping in the Gorge, and _possibly_ deer hunting if I decide to blow money on a rifled slug barrel.

I'd like some input on a satisfactory load for home defense. I've done some reading and slugs are obviously out. Overpenetration, vicious recoil, and missing the BG are good enough reason for me. The first question would be buckshot versus birdshot. I realize #9 birdshot won't vaporize a home invader like 00 buckshot, but penetrating walls to adjacent apartments is a concern. The last thing I wanna do if I ever do need to use it is smoke my roommate who's inside his room asleep, or send the occupants of the next apartment to the hospital. That being said, I would think B+ birdshot would be minimum size for home defense.

Secondly, if buckshot was used, what size? Federal seems to get the highest ratings and offers buckshot in #4, 00, and 000 loads ranging from 2 3/4" to 3 1/2". Granted, there are plenty of other great brands out there that offer all sizes of buckshot. Would #4 be a better choice than 00 being that it wouldn't have as much chance of overpenetrating through walls? Or would all buckshot have a great chance of going through walls, meaning 00 would be better since there wouldn't be as many pellets?

I've learned a great deal about different bullets and such on this forum, and now I'm wanting to learn about shotshells. I'm sure some of you could fill me in a bit.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

2 3/4" buckshot has all the power you will ever need to put down a home invader. Skip the magnum loads. The mags recoil too hard for quick follow up shots if you face more than one opponent or, God forbid, miss.

All buckshot will go through walls, but the bigger buck like 00 goes through a little more. I personally like #1 Buck as a size, but to the best of my knowledge it is not available in the lighter-recoiling "tactical" loads, which are easier to shoot. So I choose 00 in a tactical load at the present time.

If tactical loads didn't exist, or I couldn't get them, I would use #1 as a first choice and #4 as second choice. When I was living in a thin-walled apartment in Yuma, Arizona while I was on the border mission, I loaded my Mossberg with #4 because that was all I could find in Yuma. Not a big deal.

So basically, it comes down to this, as I see it: #4 and #1 penetrate very slightly less in wallboard than 00, but 00 comes in the lighter-recoiling tactical loads. I'll take slightly more theoretical penetration in walls to get the light recoil.

Perhaps *submoa* will come along and correct me. :mrgreen:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Edited to add: Birdshot doesn't have enough penetration to reliably put down a human being outside of a couple of steps. As I've mentioned about pistol rounds, anything with enough penetration to stop a human will go through walls. Make the hits.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

I agree... Currently, I'm loaded with 00 Low Recoil Defense Loads, but I bought a box of #1 Buck to test out this week.

The theory goes:
1) Anything bigger than #1 Buck will provide sufficient penetration for defensive purposes.
2) #1 Buck has a greater surface area for equivalent weight (recoil), therefore more holes...

That said, 00 Buck contains 8 pellets, each the size/weight of a 9mm slug, and at the same velocity as a short-barreled 9mm pistol.

Think 9-barreled 9mm pistol...

I'd say getting hit with nine 9mm at the same time would suck.

Also remember... 1 inch of pattern spread per yard is a good rule of thumb. It's easy to MISS with buckshot if you don't aim!!!

JeffWard


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## TOF (Sep 7, 2006)

The search for a "Golden Bullet/Shot" will go on forever. You can spend 4 or more times what a "Standard" round will cost and get 1 more or less inch penetration in whatever material you choose. I opt for a realistic approach. If it is capable of putting a deer size animal down it's good enough to put a man down. Just hit your target. Although my revolvers and pistols are my primary HD/PD weapons I do have 12 guage shotguns and 000 Buckshot for same. It is not gold plated but has always gone boom during sample firings and will make one hell of a hole in everything I have ever shot with it. It will go through walls just like the gold plated stuff if you aim at walls.

Buy a box of something and if required aim correctly.

:smt1099


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Most of the reading I did suggested using 2 3/4" low recoil loads. At close quarters the 3" and 3 1/2" aren't necessary, plus with the 2 3/4" loads you can fit more in the magazine if you need them. However, an extended magazine that can hold seven 3" shells can only hold six 3 1/2" shells, but still only seven 2 3/4" shells. I sure hope I wouldn't need more than seven shots. Federal has the 2 3/4" low recoil loads in 00 with vitalshok and powershok. I'm not sure what the difference between the two is, but both would put a human to the floor pretty quick.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> I sure hope I wouldn't need more than seven shots.


As Jeff Cooper wrote, "A 12 gauge or .30-06 is pretty conclusive." If you hit the guy COM, the fight is very, very likely over...as is his life. One accurate shot will almost always do the trick.

*TOF* speaks the truth, by the way. It's a _shotgun_. Any reasonable load you stuff into it will end a fight right now.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Hence, why a shotgun is unbeatable at close quarters.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Hence, why a shotgun is unbeatable at close quarters.


Not so sure about that as a flat statement. In a fight I'd rather have an M4 than a shotgun, even at home defense distances. But I have no _other_ reasonable use for an M4gery, so I sold mine and will keep my 870 bird gun for HD.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I never thought I'd be saying this, but I'd rather have a shotgun than an M4 for home defense. Wow. I think I need to go get some fresh air.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

I have talked to experienced people who, quite reasonably, differ on this topic. In a serious fight, I'd prefer the slightly shorter length, nonexistent recoil, pinpoint precision, nearly bottomless magazine, and instant reloads of the M4gery.

But realistically, a shotgun will do everything a long gun needs to do for home defense. Most civilian fights involving long guns are settled with 1-2 shots. A shotgun will more than suffice for that. Hell, I'm not even putting a mag extension, butt cuff, or Sidesaddle on my 870. I'll slap on an 18" barrel and call it good.

A shotgun isn't my first choice for HD, but it works fine, and I use it for other things...unlike my long-gone M4geries and AR15.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Realistically speaking, I wouldn't need more than 1-2 shots. My plan, if ever needed, is to simply wait on the second floor if the intruder decides to go for the bedrooms. The way the 2nd floor is laid out is pretty favorable for home defense. The steps are along one side of the apartment, and once you get to the top my roommate's room is directly behind that wall you're facing, and you turn 90 degrees to the right to get to the door. To get to my room, you turn 180 degrees from the steps, and my room sits over top the back of the bottom floor. So, from just outside my door, I can lean over the railing and see the entire stairway, and just beyond. Instead of crouching at the top of the steps, I can simply wait just outside my door aiming down at the bottom so if someone did come up the steps, I'd have full view of them, and they'd have to crane their neck all the way back to look straight up to see me. It puts me in a very protected/concealed spot, and gives me a full view of anyone coming up the steps. The longest shot I'd take from that spot is about ten feet, so a single load of 00 buck to the top of an intruder's head should do the trick. No way I'm sneaking down the steps after someone, they creak like crazy and if he's armed, he just has to wait for me to round the corner of the stairway and I'm toast. If someone does break in, they can have whatever they want from downstairs. The even think about coming upstairs, they're done.


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## JeffWard (Aug 24, 2007)

Okay, I'll say it.

Scary...

I agree that a two-story home is the best advantage for self defense, but the thought of waiting in a sniper's perch to blow away an intruder is a little... unsettling. Premeditated...

If you have the luxury of time, to ascertain that there is an intruder downstairs, and that he has gotten everything he wants downstairs, and that now he's headed up... so that you can blast him in the top of the head... you still don't know your target.

If there is a guy in your home uninvited by you, rummaging around down stairs, and you have a roommate at the end of the hall... and that roommate does not give you a printed schedule or arriving guests and call you every time someone comes over... You may blast his buddy in the head, after he's run downstairs at night for another beer.

Manslaughter.

If you hear someone downstairs, and you have cover, concealment, tactical advantage, firepower, and brains... ASK WHO IT IS!!! If it's a BG, he's likely going to bail, thinking: "Shi___ I thought this place was empty!". If it's a buddy of your roommate, he'll likely tell you who he is.

Waiting to snipe him, shoot-first-ask-questions-style, will land you in jail 999 times out of a 1000.

The first rule of owning a gun is its responsible use. That includes thinking things through, and considering what could hapen if your paranoia is WRONG.

I live in a house with 5 keys... I only carry one of them. If I shot everyoe who made noise in my house at night, I'd have shot my fiance's kids, and kid's boyfriends, 4 times over.

My .02


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Very good advice, Jeff. However, being that there's just two of us, the likelihood of me getting spooked over one of his guests is pretty much obsolete, due to our knowledge of defense. We both know each other's schedule, and we keep each other updated. If he has friends over, or I do, we know about it. We always let each other know what's going on for the day or night, and we're both so noisy when we're at home, we always know what's up.

From my perch atop the steps, I would be extremely able to tell if it's my roommate, one of his friends, one of my friends, or an intruder. The odds of us both being in our rooms at 4am and a friend sneaking back up to his room with a beer is unlikely. We're both extremely vigilant about locking the door, ESPECIALLY at night, so someone couldn't "surprise" either of us with a visit without calling and telling us to unlock the door.

Don't get me wrong, I don't go grabbing a gun every time I hear a bump downstairs. And I would never pull the trigger on anything until I was absolutely sure it was someone who was not supposed to be there. In all honesty, with as creaky as the floors in our bedrooms are, if I was awoken in the middle of the night, I'm probably gonna scare anyone off once I get out of bed and go walking through my room. I've discussed this kind of stuff with my roommate and we both keep each other very aware of our whereabouts whether we're home or not. If someone WERE to break in through our locked door, we'd hear it in a second. You couldn't break into my apartment without waking up the entire building. Plus, my roommate's an extremely light sleeper, while I'm a heavy one. If something wakes me up, he's been awake for five minutes.

Another thing to keep in mind is we always leave lights on downstairs for safety. If someone is rummaging around in the middle of the night and the lights are out, odds are they aren't supposed to be there. But again, target identification is a must, and like I said, I will always fully identify a target before shooting.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

Obviously, I completely agree about ID'ing the target before firing. But since the alternative to "sniping" is going looking for the bad guy, I'll hide and wait, thanks. :mrgreen:

Even the ever-cautious Mas Ayoob advocates waiting in the "safe room" with the shotgun, and letting the bad guy come to you. I don't think this is too much different than "sniping" from the top of a stairwell. Mas does advocate verbal warnings, however, like "I have a gun and have called the police!" I agree with this. This is even better if you have an open line to 911.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Waiting in silence and not moving can make you invisible to someone in semi-darkness who doesn't have a clue you're there. For calling out to warn someone, I think a schick-schick of the slide and a, "***** ***** you better get the **** out before I blow your head off or the fuzz put you behind bars!" would do the trick. Lol.


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## Mike Barham (Mar 30, 2006)

fivehourfrenzy said:


> Waiting in silence and not moving can make you invisible to someone in semi-darkness who doesn't have a clue you're there. For calling out to warn someone, I think a schick-schick of the slide and a, "***** ***** you better get the **** out before I blow your head off or the fuzz put you behind bars!" would do the trick. Lol.


See, there's this little thing called "witness management." If you have an open line to 911, you do not want to be cursing at the top of your lungs, since makes you look out of control and angry. You do not want to be making threats. You do not want to be calling the police you expect to save you "the fuzz."


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Lol I know, that was a joke. On a more serious note, "If you don't belong here, please get out. I have a shotgun and the police are on the way," would be sufficient. Odds are, if and when someone does break into the apartment I'm in right now, they're not looking for confrontation. They're wanting to steal a few electronic valubles and get the hell out. Now if you live in a nice house out in the country with no neighbors for a 1/4 mile in every direction, someone breaking in would probably be armed and ready to silence any witnesses that he came across. In a semi-urban area in a crowded apartment building with people walking around 24/7, they probably wouldn't go in looking for people to kill. If I really was in fear of my life on a day-to-day basis where I live, I'd move. However, I have plenty of other sporting uses for a shotgun, so I'll get to use it, even if I never have to take out an intruder.


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## Ratel (Jul 26, 2006)

My Remington 870 is loaded with steel "T" shot. That's about 50 or so 20 caliber balls. At "in the house" range it will shred anything stupid enough to continue against a shotgun and yet the steel shot is slowed fairly quickly by walls making it safer for those beyond. The only one that will tell that the culprit was killed with "T" shot instead of buckshot will be the coroner.


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

I realize larger sized steel shot and buckshot are both lethal at close ranges, but how would they compare if a perp is very heavily dressed (dressed heavily enough to keep a 9mm JHP from penetrating deeply enough to hit vitals)?


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## fivehourfrenzy (Aug 12, 2007)

Just found this tonight: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

They recommend #1 buckshot as the best performer. However as Mike mentioned, they're not offered in low recoil loads like 00 buck is.


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