# Response to attack within 7 feet



## Wandering Man

OK guys, I'm certainly no expert in defensive tactics. But I've been doing some reading (Ralph Mroz' book: Defensive shooting for real-life encounters), and I was hoping to stimulate some conversation here.

Pick your top 3!

Which three responses would be most likely to use. Why?


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## Mike Barham

I think it's situational.

If I was with my family*, I would close with the attacker while drawing. This would (intentionally) make me a bigger target, as I would hope any bullets he fired would hit me while my wife and child made an escape. Whether I take hits or not, I will to shoot him to the ground, and being closer will make that easier.

If I was alone, I would move diagonally away while accessing my pistol. Moving fast and gaining distance would be more important than getting the gun out. As Mas Ayoob likes to say, "Distance favors the trained gunfighter." Not getting shot/stabbed is more important than shooting, so I will not sacrifice speed of movement for speed of draw. If diagonal movement isn't possible (my back to a wall), I will at least try to move laterally.

Moving diagonally forward is a valid option for those with good combatives skills (and Ralph Mroz's are outstanding), but my hand-to-hand skills just aren't good enough to deflect a gun or knife with one hand and draw and fire with the other. A man has to know his limitations, as the celluloid gunfighter said. I'd only do it if I had no other options.

I learned the Speed Rock from the man who resurrected it for modern gunfighting, Chuck Taylor. It is not an especially good technique unless you can't move in any direction AND the guy is swiping at you with an edged or impact weapon. Speed Rock leaves you totally off balance and even a light hit (from a bullet or anything else) will flatten you.

Backpedalling beats standing still, but you're still easy to hit compared to moving laterally. Also, your opponent can generally move forward faster than you can move backward, the exception being when you both start standing still and you move very unexpectedly - getting inside his "OODA loop" (an overrated concept, IMO).

John Farnam used to teach a variation of the Turtle. I don't like removing my mobility completely, since I may need to move, run, jump, duck, do the Macarena or whatever to avoid bullets or blades. I will only go to ground if given no other option.


* If I was with just my wife, we would move apart and triangulate the attacker, making him into Glockamolie. (You know what Glockamolie is, right? It's the remains of an attacker who has taken a full magazine from a Glock. Or in this case, two.)


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## Baldy

Mike has said it all for me except for speed rock(I am not going to dance with the sucker) and the turtle (I am not going down unless shot or knocked down). Where do they come up with these names. If the wife is with me she takes the one on her side she's facing and we move apart. Shame on him if he's by himself.


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## Wandering Man

Baldy said:


> Where do they come up with these names.


Speed Rock was already named.

Turtle is my name for it ...  ... just my impression of what it must look like, a turtle on its back.

WM


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## Wandering Man

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> (You know what Glockamolie is, right? It's the remains of an attacker who has taken a full magazine from a Glock. Or in this case, two.)


:smt082

hmm ... Kimbermolie? Bersamolie (wife's gun)? Nah.

Maybe Kimberkibbles or Bersabits.

WM


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## Chow Chow

Try to get behind the attacker and bite him in the back would be a good idea in most cases :boxing:


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## Mike Barham

The Speed Rock is so named because of the body movement involved. As you draw, you bend at the knees and rock your upper body backward, away from the attack. The pistol comes up on the ribcage aside the body, under the strongside pectoral muscle, and two quick shots are fired. It's the rocking motion that gives the technique its name. The rocking is supposed to get you away from the attack and also direct the muzzle up and into the attacker's vitals.

In a humorous moment in his class, after Chuck had just demo'd the technique, an astute student asked him what to do if the guy didn't stop with two shots. Chuck just turned to the target, pushed his Commander into contact with the target's head and pressed off a round, tearing the head to shreds. Chuck then turned to us and said, "Any more questions?"


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## DRAEGER

Since you didn't describe what your attacker was using, if anything to attack you..

A sad proven fact is that if an attacker has a knife in hand, has some idea how to really use it and is around 14 feet (more or less) away. He /she will most likely be upon you slicing you to deadly bits before you even get your weapon fully drawn, let alone be able to use it. With that fact in mind, odds of getting your weapon in a usable position quickly is slim. You need time & distance if possible.

From what I have learned over the years: Stay on your feet if at all possible, use whatever you can to protect your vital areas and back pedal, bob & sway, etc.. (Mike has a good idea if you have time) as far as possible to gain or keep distance from your attacker. Don't turn and run if you are close, you can't keep tabs on your attacker when he is behind you.

With a duty belt on, I carry a TDI knife on the left side which is drawable from right or left hand (blade pointed down in left hand, up in right hand). If someone goes for the gun on my right side, I have the possible option to draw the knife with my left and slash his/her forearm, chest or where ever while keeping my right hand over my sidearm to hopefully gain control of it and prevent it from being drawn.

Lastly, I think this question you ask can not be fully answered without actually being in the situation or without more details of the situation.


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## Wandering Man

DRAEGER said:


> Lastly, I think this question you ask can not be fully answered without actually being in the situation or without more details of the situation.


Very true. But I think it is a useful exercise to think ahead, and to have multiple options that I've considered.

Some of us believe that carrying a gun and being able to hit a target is all the safety precautions we need in self defence. As if the gun is a magic shield and will protect us just because we have it and know how to shoot it.

Thinking about whether the gun will really help me if I'm attacked, and if not, what alternatives I might use seems to be an important next step.

WM


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## john doe.

Luke Skywalker taught me how to use the force and make the attacker attack himself by punching himself in the balls untill he throws up. I've had to use it twice. The second time sucked because I got puke all over my blue suede shoes.

Besides that- It is situational. Sometimes what theroetical works best is not always best in the situation. Adapt, over come, and fight to win.


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## Mike Barham

DRAEGER said:


> A sad proven fact is that if an attacker has a knife in hand, has some idea how to really use it and is around 14 feet (more or less) away. He /she will most likely be upon you slicing you to deadly bits before you even get your weapon fully drawn, let alone be able to use it. With that fact in mind, odds of getting your weapon in a usable position quickly is slim. You need time & distance if possible...Don't turn and run if you are close, you can't keep tabs on your attacker when he is behind you.


Current force-on-force experiments don't bear out either of these statements. The work Gabe Suarez and others are doing in FOF seems to imply that explosive movement offline can very often keep you from being cut even with an attack starting as close as seven feet. Yeah, if you just stand there and try to outdraw an advancing knifeman, you'll get cut - Dennis Tueller taught us that back in about 1980.

There is also some FOF evidence that simply turning and running will get you "off the X" faster than anything, and getting away from the blade or gun is priority one. So what if you can't see the guy. Is he going to cut/shoot you less just because you are looking at him? He'll probably do MORE damage because you can't move as fast in one direction if you are looking in another.


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## DRAEGER

Mike Barham at Galco said:


> Current force-on-force experiments don't bear out either of these statements. The work Gabe Suarez and others are doing in FOF seems to imply that explosive movement offline can very often keep you from being cut even with an attack starting as close as seven feet. Yeah, if you just stand there and try to outdraw an advancing knifeman, you'll get cut - Dennis Tueller taught us that back in about 1980.
> 
> There is also some FOF evidence that simply turning and running will get you "off the X" faster than anything, and getting away from the blade or gun is priority one. So what if you can't see the guy. Is he going to cut/shoot you less just because you are looking at him? He'll probably do MORE damage because you can't move as fast in one direction if you are looking in another.


All I am going to say to everyone reading this is try it and do whatever will work in the situation they find themselves in. Try having a buddy charge you from varying distances while you try and draw or fight them off, just keep moving. See what may or may not work for you. Remember that all those famous self proclaimed, self-defense guru's are not going to be there giving you pointers when your in a bad spot. Practice and train for the unexpected, use your instincts when it happens... :numbchuck:


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## Dave James

HOw you do it or what form you do it in doesn't matter,, I'm a long time and trained Point shooter for lack of a better term ,, the truth of the matter is this

" You root, you die"


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## DRAEGER

Dave James said:


> HOw you do it or what form you do it in doesn't matter,, I'm a long time and trained Point shooter for lack of a better term ,, the truth of the matter is this
> 
> " You root, you die"


*Exactly!!! MOVE!!!*


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## stormbringerr

*tactics*

i would just try to put some distance between us fast while drawing my gun , then i would kill him.


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## Mike Barham

DRAEGER said:


> All I am going to say to everyone reading this is try it and do whatever will work in the situation they find themselves in. Try having a buddy charge you from varying distances while you try and draw or fight them off, just keep moving. See what may or may not work for you. Remember that all those famous self proclaimed, self-defense guru's are not going to be there giving you pointers when your in a bad spot. Practice and train for the unexpected, use your instincts when it happens...


This is pretty surprising advice from someone who trained at API under Jeff Cooper.

You will learn very little from uncontrolled FOF "experiments" like having your buddy charge at you in your backyard. It is also potentially very unsafe. FOF training, to be productive, needs to be structured and controlled, not a free for all with untrained people swinging away at each other.

Gabe Suarez and Dennis Tueller are "self proclaimed, self-defense guru's"? That's news to me. Both were friends and/or employees of Jeff Cooper.

The whole point of taking training from good instructors is so their lessons and "pointers" will be with you in a bad spot.


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## Mike Barham

Dave James said:


> HOw you do it or what form you do it in doesn't matter,, I'm a long time and trained Point shooter for lack of a better term ,, the truth of the matter is this
> 
> " You root, you die"


I agree that movement is important. However, dozens of Gunsite grads, for example, report simply firing from Weaver and ending the fight with victory. To the best of my knowledge, lateral movement is not taught at Gunsite's 250 course. So I think it is an exaggeration to say that, in all situations, if you stand still you will automatically die. People have stood stock-still and survived.

I think how you do it is very important. Going straight back from a gunman makes you a much easier target than moving laterally or diagonally, for example.


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## Dave James

Mike I don't disagree,, hae been called an old guy for preaching "stand and deliever".

I really don't care what is taught or by whom, no school has the answer, and I think back yard FOF can be a teaching tool,, too much control and stageing defeats the purpose.

Yep Gabe was an Instructor at the older gunsite from what I understand, but as he has said ,,he has suppased that line of thinking now and moved on.

ONe thing about gun fight training it is on going and new ideas and ways to do thigs come about.

Beat we'll see several things come out of the sand box once the troops come home, their doing more "house to house" then 100% of the cops .


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## Mike Barham

Dave James said:


> Mike I don't disagree,, hae been called an old guy for preaching "stand and deliever".
> 
> I really don't care what is taught or by whom, no school has the answer, and I think back yard FOF can be a teaching tool,, too much control and stageing defeats the purpose.


Not sure what an untrained guy can teach an untrained guy in a back yard, but okay. Just make sure you use airsoft or dummy guns.



> Yep Gabe was an Instructor at the older gunsite from what I understand, but as he has said ,,he has suppased that line of thinking now and moved on.
> 
> ONe thing about gun fight training it is on going and new ideas and ways to do thigs come about.


I agree completely. I was only making the point about Gunsite to demonstrate that movement is not required in 100% of situations. The big thing among instructors right now is "getting off the X," but it is obviously not necessary in every single scenario, since many people have survived without a bunch of running around and crabwalking.

I also think that a lot of instructors teach moving and shooting simultaneously, to the detriment of the actual goal: not getting shot. If you do have to move, moving is more important than shooting. Yet I see guys teaching the Groucho Walk and such, moving at such a low speed that my daughter could take them out without a whole lot of effort. But they can make ten-meter head shots while they poke along!

New ideas are indeed the life blood of gunfight survival. Gabe is on to some interesting things, but he's not the only one doing FOF, fortunately. Gunsite teaches it, just not in the 250 course. It's in upper-level courses there. Arguments can be made about whether that's a good or bad thing, but you can't shoot and move if you can't shoot standing still!



> Beat we'll see several things come out of the sand box once the troops come home, their doing more "house to house" then 100% of the cops .


I'm not sure how useful it'll be for civilian use, even in the LEO context, though. At Fort Bragg, they taught us to move so aggressively through a house that it would be very difficult to tell friend from foe, unless they are clearly marked by a uniform. Besides, moving in a fire team is very different from being a lone civilian with a pistol on the American street.


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## BAC

I agree with others in that this is highly situational.

There was an old maxim really beat into us during (of all things) my Class D security courses some months ago: "Under stress in a crisis, you will instinctively revert back to the way you were trained." If you trained to fight, it will feel unnatural to do anything else. If you trained to run, it will mean a fight results in you backpeddling and fleeing. If you trained to do neither, you'll freeze up (see it happen all the time, especially in poorly-taught, less dynamic self-defense courses).

If he's real close _but does not possess a gun_, I am much more inclined to tangle hand-to-hand. I know I'm good enough at it to protect myself, and becoming aggressive in that way shifts control from him to you.

If he's real close _and possesses a gun (me being alone)_, I do whatever I can to draw mine and shoot it. Practicing many different ways to do this is helpful, but training in specific ways tends to close your mind into a certain pattern; if that pattern doesn't cycle through, you'll freeze (bad-guy's gun already leveled, or he moved faster, things like this will break your focus).

Only thing that changes if others are with me is I draw faster and place myself between bad-guy and those accompanying me. The _hardest_ part about protecting others is the tendency to forget to tell them what to do... "Run!" "Get help!," things like that.

-B


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## Mike Barham

BAC said:


> Only thing that changes if others are with me is I draw faster and place myself between bad-guy and those accompanying me. The _hardest_ part about protecting others is the tendency to forget to tell them what to do... "Run!" "Get help!," things like that.


Excellent point. Verbalization should be part of everyone's training. It is hard to find a range that doesn't mind you shouting at a piece of cardboard, though! Simulators are good for that. I have one at a rental range near my home in AZ, and the wife and I try to get some time in it at least a couple times a year.


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## Dave James

Bac, you have a good point,, I have seen it for years in training PD's the "protective nature" comes out quickly in good Cops, but trying to get them to verbalize is damn hard,, other than the normal "STOP YOU F**er" type stuff.

Mike, true that, FOF has been around for years,, Col.Askins and I used to do soft wax and heavy coats. Spot on about movement,, movement for movement sake isn't always good,, some times you have to stand and deliver to get ahead,,

Mr. Bryce was the one who preached to me that standing around when the bullets where flying would get you killed, but he strongly believed in movement when needed.

My war was a long time ago now, but I saw and used several thing I learned in the jungles ,, on the streets,, what you guys and gals are doing over there now, will filter into LEO work, it more or less will be modified to fit, but it will have its start there, its just the nature of the beast.


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## jpruett79

I would personally recomend all who are able also take martial arts or some other kind of hand to hand combat training. I have always learned and believed if someone is within arms reach to deal with the immediate threat first then go for weapons later. Depending on the situation you may be better served by fighting the attacker off then going for the gun to keep him at bay.


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## Wandering Man

jpruett79 said:


> I would personally recomend all who are able also take martial arts or some other kind of hand to hand combat training.


This was pretty much Mroz' opinion ... that we should be thinking beyond using the gun when confronted with a threat at close quarters.

WM


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## Phelptwan

I may have missed it. But does the attacker have a gun, knife, or some other weapon?


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## Wandering Man

Yes, the attacker does have one of those.








You didn't miss it. 

Pick your top three, depending on what type of threat you think you would most likely need to (or would be able to) defend against.

WM


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## NRATC

*Focus on the perp not on the weapon*

I agree with jpruett79 to a point. If the poll would have said 3 feer instead of 7 feet I would have agreed 100%. Your main focus should be on the perp not on the weapon. The weapon is merely an extention of the perp. What most perps do not expect is a, what I call, an 'agressive defense'. You cannot outdraw a perp who has the 'drop' on you. There are too many unstated variables in the poll to for any of us to say, 'do this or that'. Having said all that, at 7 feet or more and with room to move, run like HE double toothpicks in a zig zag pattern. No good for the ego but good for waking up tomorrow. Stats tell us running is your best chance at survival. If your back is to the wall, let it be the 'agressive defense' of your choice/training.

Jim


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## Mystro

Interesting thread.
The only advice I could add is that formal training should be on everyone's short list if you are going to carry a gun. 
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT rely on what you _think_ you would do! 
Get the training.
:smt1099


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## [email protected]

It is totally situational. The question that I think needs to be asked, is, Have YOU trained for a situation such as this?! Because if you haven't, then you are pretty much on a suicide mission!

I will tell you this much... If the attacker makes the first move and they are within 7 feet of you, you are pretty much toast!!! Even with a lot of realistic and practical training you are under the curve. However, much of the time you are better to respond with unarmed combatives first and then draw your gun. Of course, where are your family members in relation to where you are standing and the attacker(s)? If you move and leave them and targets, that's not really a good plan!

In fact, I think that you should train and have a plan with your family so they know which way to move. You can have codes to move to the left or right because you are going to move the other direction. Your family's movement does not have to be at the same time as your movement. Just get them to move before you do!

Creating distance is not always your best option!!! You may have to move in on the attacker and draw. There is an example of this if you follow the link below.

http://www.modernwarriortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210

Agreed, the weapon is only an extension of the body. But how many people truly think this way? The gun is the LAST resort. And, you cannot count on taking the attacker immediately out of the fight with your handgun.

Too many variables and not enough specifics of the situation which makes it hard to say what to do. Has your training prepared you for situations at close distances?
______________________
Brian K. LaMaster
Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC


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## DarkCharisma

I hate to revive a dead thread, but I found it really interesting to see how many different point of views are in here.

I'm a young buck, so my experiences are nil compared to most others, but when I decided to take "self defense" and not "Karate" when I was younger, I learned some important things; It doesn't matter what color belt you got. It doesn't matter if you are honorable. It doesn't matter if you are fair. If your life or the life of others is in danger, it all goes out the window, and that's all that matters.

Fight... fight like a cornered animal. Claw, bite, kick, elbow, break, bend, punch, gouge, rip, tear; do whatever you have to do to make sure that you (and other innocents, if applicable) are the ones that walk away unharmed, because your life really is at stake when it does happen. 

I highly recommend taking a good practical defense class by a good instructor. I was trained by an artist named Bruce McGee, and I will always thank him for what he taught me; the raw, uncensored things I needed to know to help my chances of walking away from a conflict... No flashy kicks, no impractically flourished 'combos,' but things like using weight against an assailant, using elbows, open palms, and compounding your entire body's muscle system to throw as much force humanly possible into every strike you use. He was a firm believer in three second fights that left as many things broken on your assailant.

By the way, I voted "Fight until you can get your gun."


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## spacedoggy

I would let my stomach out so that my Man from Uncle gun in my belt buckle or was that a Get Smart Gun. I would use my knife that T.H.E. CAT used but I might be to close. The Bat something would work. I would not brush my teeth for a week then blow on him. That's why you must plan at all times. Time for me to go nite nite.


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## khellandros66

Step back, as you do extend the elbow of you non-drawing arm in front of you (make a fist so the knuckles are facing the collar bone), keeping the firearm at your side. This will allow the elbow to act as a shield, while you fire your weapon.

At this point if someone were to reach for the weapon you can "bash/bat" at their hand/arm/face to resist their attempt at your drawn weapon.

~Bobby


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## [email protected]

I voted FIGHT until you can get your gun. The reason for that is, THE GUN IS NOT THE ANSWER to your problem! It is ONLY a TOOL!!! You have to stay alive long enough in the fight to POSSIBLY have the opportunity to ATTEMPT to draw your gun IF that is the thing to do.

We do real world stuff and that is what we preach, teach, and live by ourselves --no bull. Anything else is unrealistic in my opinion. In fact, we have created a "challenge" for people to take online. I just filmed the new challenge and I am working on editing it as we speak. Responding with your gun first is not always the best option or even an option. More than likely if the other person takes action first, you are better off responding with unarmed combatives! This short video clip will show you EXACTLY what I am talking about. See if you can truly draw when you see the attacker move.

http://www.right2defend.com/vidclips.htm


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## Wandering Man

[email protected] said:


> I voted FIGHT until you can get your gun. The reason for that is, THE GUN IS NOT THE ANSWER to your problem! It is ONLY a TOOL!!! You have to stay alive long enough in the fight to POSSIBLY have the opportunity to ATTEMPT to draw your gun IF that is the thing to do.
> 
> We do real world stuff and that is what we preach, teach, and live by ourselves --no bull. Anything else is unrealistic in my opinion. In fact, we have created a "challenge" for people to take online. I just filmed the new challenge and I am working on editing it as we speak. Responding with your gun first is not always the best option or even an option. More than likely if the other person takes action first, you are better off responding with unarmed combatives! This short video clip will show you EXACTLY what I am talking about. See if you can truly draw when you see the attacker move.
> 
> http://www.right2defend.com/vidclips.htm


Thanks.

WM


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## [email protected]

You are most certainly welcome!

_________________
Brian K. LaMaster
Innnovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
www.right2defend.com


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## PanaDP

I don't know shit about tactical fighting but all of this begs a question. Most people answered assuming the attacker was in front of them. What if you're attacked from the side? How about the rear?


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## Borderline Bob

*Run, make distance first*

Some years ago my best friend and I were jumped by 6 thugs from just beyond arm's length, after they stopped us with the "Can you give us some dough" routine.
I was 19, my friend 20, and he held a Tae Kwon Do brown belt. Unhappy with the miserable contents of our wallets, and our cheap watches, the thugs announced their intentions to kill us, and began to do so. They had knives, short clubs, and chains. In seconds I was incapacitated and about to go to my knees. My friend was only seconds behind me.

I am much more street-wise today, and the thugs wouldn't get that close to me. I'd run, making as much distance and noise as possible, turning to shoot only if it was apparent I couldn't escape, or they weren't going the other way.

How did we get out of it? We heard some yelling and the murderers took off at a dead run. We looked up to see a young black man, of the type the fascist left is so afraid to allow to have guns, pointing a small revolver at the fleeing thugs.

We begged him to stay with us until the cops arrived. This was Chicago. He said "Oh no. I can't do that. No black man can get a permit for gun in this city." We didn't know, at that time, that NO honest person could get a permit for a gun in Chicago.

We walked to a pay phone and I called the cops. They wanted to know just the hell we thought we were doing in such a "bad" neighborhood. Were we some kinda tough guys lookin' for trouble? No matter how I tried to explain, he was berating me for looking for trouble. My friend, bleeding as much as I was, snatched the phone from my hand and, summoning his best bluster, said he was a "Karate" expert and he wouldn't be responsible for what might happen if we were attacked again. "Wait right there" the f**king cop said.

TWENTY MINUTES later, a cruiser rounds the corner. HUGE black cop gets out. "Which one of you is the "karate expert?" he demanded in an angry voice. My friend steps up and they exchange Japanese words for a minute.

Cop again tells us we must be some kinda idiots, going there looking for trouble. I just said we were now broke, due to robbery, bleeding (obvious), our clothes were in shreds (and punctured), couldn't the nice cop person give us a ride to a hospital or at least to a bus stop? "What the hell you think we are, a 'cab company'?" he replies. Gets in his car and drives off. Most of his conversation was trying to get us to identify the young man who saved our lives. Couldn't have cared less about the killers.

So, I repeat, RUN, make all distance possible, then shoot if necessary, before they get back into arm's length.

At all times be alert to anyone around you. If they seem like even a possible threat, make the distance early. With family, move them behind you, move the other way, move into a building/business/ or to an occupied house (and POUND ON THE DOOR). When "asked" for anything, hold out a hand to warn the person to stay back. Say it, if necessary. When speaking, speak loudly enough to attract the attention of the next nearest people. If that means yell, then yell. If nothing happens, 30 seconds later no one will even remember you. These days you can also take out your cell phone and hit 911 so the suspicious people can see you do it, poising your finger over the send button. It's a bluff, since a strong-arm robbery can take all of 20 seconds, but it's still how you get distance and time.

Oh, and I hope the Rooshians nuke Chicago. The loss of that many fascists and sheeple will benefit the entire country.

Borderline Bob
Say not "I know," so much as "I wonder."


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## [email protected]

> How about the rear?


Watch your cornhole dude!!! That's the first thing. 
______________________
Brian K. LaMaster
President -Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
Instructor - Counter Force


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## neophyte

*vinegar*

hypothesis? Most of you are younger? with spit and vinegar.

As you get older, speed diminishes, reflexes slow, partners generally are the same grouping.
I would like to imagine myself [hostile situation] still the 20yr firebreathing dragon.
Reality check is in order.
The mind may betray, the body will not. 
Practicing anything is better than doing nothing, 
Preparing the mind is better than nothing
Understanding you enviroment
understanding your limitations

I do believe all of you have outstanding thinking; because; you are thinking.

We here in NC Clt area have had a ?rash? [high end neighborhood] knock @door, in comes shotgun with several bad guys, [bad guy wins]

preparedness goes a long way, until the guard is let down.

Following this thread gives hope


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## submoa

Hmmm... depends on the situation.

If I was with my boss, I'd push him towards the BG, draw when the BG is trying to get boss off him and plug BG. Self defense and career advancement at the same time.

...attitude problem my ass.


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## dallaswood43

*very interesting thread*

i would not stand and try to draw if the attacker were armed with a knife or blunt heavy object. i saw some pictures recently of a columbus police officer who had been attacked with a blade of some sort and he was laid open to say the least, across the top of his chest, several times across his back, and once down by the hip. he survived but it was probably nothing short of a miracle. adrenaline is an amazing thing and i'm sure any of us could muster up our quickest 40 yard dash time under those circumstances. if you can get away without a shot being fired that would be the best solution.


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## Anarius

If the enemy has a knife I will risk closing unless my opponent is a trained knife fighter - they would have to be lucky to put me down in one or two hits, and since most untrained knife fighters (bless their souls) tend to slash laterally at the head and neck...I will not introduce a firearm into a fight until I'm sure that I can retain control of it. How many half-way heroes get shot with their own gun? This is a problem even with police officers. Anyone remember the advice to wear according to what you carry? Since the question stipulates 7 feet and I assume the enemy has a handgun, my response would be to move laterally away from their firing side (I move left against a right-hand shooter) and forwards which has the benifit of lining me up for a better 1 hand shot if necessary (I carry on my right) and making it more awkward for the attacker to aim. This is also a benifit in case I fail my draw (drop the gun, it gets snagged, etc) as I will be close enough to use my body mass and take the fight to the ground. This probably wouldn't be wise for smaller folks, but usually I can get away with it.


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## Teuthis

*Reactions*

At the distance you posit, the only thing one can do is try to get one's gun into play as quickly as possible. Time taken to get out of the way would slow bringing one's gun into action.

I would not want to make contact with the subject, and perhaps be pulled in, so pushing off could be risky. A martial artist could throw one off balance easily.

Sidestepping sounds good but it could impede one's draw and place one off balance. It creates lateral inertia that is not one of our best, natural ways to move. Perhaps a tap dancer could manage it.

Lying on the ground on one's back puts any angle of entry going north, up to heart, lungs and aorta. And it almost eliminates any possibility of getting to cover, which should be a priority.

Rocking back keeps both feet on the ground and allows one to draw and bring the weapon up to mid torso and point shoot. That is my choice within the general situation described.

If possible I might want to step towards the subject while I draw, and make my point shot a little more accurate by virtue of proximity. I would be shooting from mid torso with the gun just ahead of my belly, especially if it was a revolver.

I do not see any third option that I would want to try, except get to cover.


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## Mike Barham

Teuthis said:


> Sidestepping sounds good but it could impede one's draw and place one off balance. It creates lateral inertia that is not one of our best, natural ways to move. Perhaps a tap dancer could manage it.


I'm no tap dancer. I'm actually pretty clumsy and physically inept compared to a lot of people. But with a little practice, I was able to learn to move laterally while drawing, and do it pretty smoothly. Obviously, it requires some training and practice, but so does every other skill we expect to perform under extreme stress.

Lateral movement is certainly not so dexterity-intensive that the average shooter cannot master it with some practice.


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## zhurdan

First best defense is not being there of course, and that comes with being aware of who is around you. 9 times out of 10 you can see trouble coming a ways off. Move faster, get somewhere public. That being said, sometimes it cannot be avoided.

Someone mentioned visually warning them with a hand, phone, command. That does the trick most of the time, but if they are intent on hurting you, you'll probably know. This kind of comes to that whole "escalation of force" riggamarow, but that's another topic all together. Once they are within 7 feet, you are indeed in trouble. Any physical move they make is going to be hard to counteract unless you are already defensively minded. If you're caught off guard, you are probably gonna get hit, stabbed, cut, shot, whatever. If you see it coming and they are still that close, I'd say manage the danger (weapon) first. If it's a knife, expect to get cut, but get hands on that arm. If it's a gun, and you can't escape, move laterally and get hands on that gun, breaking a persons grip is fairly easy if you "turn in". That's turning the gun towards the inside of their stance. Doing so will most likely set the gun off even if they aren't trying, so be to the left if they are right handed. Rotate to their centerline. Take it if you can, if not, bite, kick, scratch, spit, punch, think bad thoughts... anything you can. Go for soft areas, eyes, throat, groin. Stun them first, then get your gun if you can, but if you are tied up with them, introducing another gun can be just as bad as not. My dad always said, "Never draw a gun you wouldn't want shoved up your arse and fired, because unless you're sure you can get a round off, they just might take it from you and do just that!" I've worked with some pretty good instructors, and every stinking time, I get my lunch handed to me. It's much harder than you would expect. I've used rubber knives to train and I would have been diced up like tomatoes even after alot of instruction. I've tried to move out of the way of rubber guns, and always end up with one in the stomach. So, for all extensive purposes, I would vote "get the hell outta there!" if possible. Fighting a person who's got the drop on you is tough. I'm no super dooper fighter dude, so I wouldn't wanna tussle with someone with a real knife or a real gun, but if I had to, all the stops come out, I will bite their eye out!

Anyways, after my diareah of the keyboard above, I'd just say that confrontation has alot of side effects. I drew my gun once on a guy with a crow bar smashing the crap outta this van with a woman and kid inside. He didn't even see it at low ready. He advanced and I put it up to chest height. He was still about 12 feet away. He saw it and his knees buckled and I held him there until police arrived. My point is this... after they secured the scene, cuffed me too, put me in a car for 45 minutes, I noticed that I literally could not move my legs. My back had tightened up so much that my legs didn't work. I was out of danger at that point, but it's really wierd how the body reacts to danger. I remember being faster, more aware during the incident, but afterwards, I would have needed someone to wipe my nose, and not because I was handcuffed! hehe 

Interesting topic. Good read. Train when you can, as much as you can, but realize that a good 80% of it flies out the window when the excrement hits the occilator. If you life is in the balance, just fight harder than they do.

Here's to never having to be put in that situation! *raises glass*

Zhur


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## Wandering Man

zhurdan said:


> ... think bad thoughts...
> Zhur


:anim_lol:

Nice post.

WM


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## niadhf

submoa said:


> Hmmm... depends on the situation.
> 
> If I was with my boss, I'd push him towards the BG, draw when the BG is trying to get boss off him and plug BG. Self defense and career advancement at the same time.
> 
> ...attitude problem my ass.


:anim_lol::smt082:anim_lol:

I had my boss do this to me in a 10 x 16 room with a REALLY PISSED attack squirrel. I had a broom. But i had to whether decide to hit my boss (should have) or the squirrel (them babbies have fangs).......

as to the question, as has been said, its situational. Although my relfexes tend towards open hand techniques as this is what I have practiced regularly for 20 plus years. Against a gun? give him what he wants, if he still goes aggressive, well, go "medieval on his @$$" in any and all ways possible, but MOVE. In, out, up, down, left,right, move and practice to move and practice while moving.


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## niadhf

[email protected] said:


> I voted FIGHT until you can get your gun. The reason for that is, THE GUN IS NOT THE ANSWER to your problem! It is ONLY a TOOL!!! You have to stay alive long enough in the fight to POSSIBLY have the opportunity to ATTEMPT to draw your gun IF that is the thing to do.
> 
> We do real world stuff and that is what we preach, teach, and live by ourselves --no bull. Anything else is unrealistic in my opinion. In fact, we have created a "challenge" for people to take online. I just filmed the new challenge and I am working on editing it as we speak. Responding with your gun first is not always the best option or even an option. More than likely if the other person takes action first, you are better off responding with unarmed combatives! This short video clip will show you EXACTLY what I am talking about. See if you can truly draw when you see the attacker move.
> 
> http://www.right2defend.com/vidclips.htm


Draw, heck i can hardly get my hand on my gun in that time. But I can do irim or tenkan (straight or turning enter) to get off the line of attack and remove some of thepower from the attack, and respond from there.


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## DWFan

My father taught me that "FOF" is foolish at best. It makes your attacker react on his instincts instead of thought, decreasing his reaction time. Stay out of arm's reach to avoid edged weapons and move sideways because a laterally moving target is more difficult to hit accurately; turning to present a profile instead of head-on target because taking a bullet in the arm or hip is preferred to taking one in the chest and keeping your weapon side away from them while increasing distance as much as possible. Distance gives the advantage to the accurate.


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## TDIllini

Standing kimura, pull guard if necessary, dislocate the shoulder and then continue with the beat down.


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## fivehourfrenzy

TDIllini said:


> Standing kimura, pull guard if necessary, dislocate the shoulder and then continue with the beat down.


Not a good plan...he's gonna bite your jugular out if he can, and if you don't grab the arm that's holding the knife, you're done. Besides, if you pull guard, you're gonna end up on the bottom, which is a bad place to be if the guy on top of you has a knife, dislocated shoulder or not.

If someone comes at me with a knife, I will sidestep to whichever side is accessible, and if his knee is available, straight kick it as hard as I can, which would completely blow out any human's knee. Odds are he's human and is gonna keel over in pain in some form or fashion, at which point he'll receive a roundhouse to the face or neck, preferably the neck as a solid hit should crush his windpipe and/or larynx, and he will suffocate while I escape. If the knee does not present itself, I will continue to step back and to the side, which puts me out of his reach and gives me time to draw. Once you've removed yourself from a knife fighter's range and pulled a gun that has, when compared to the knife, an infinite amount of range (but let's say more than 8" past the hand), the fight is over. He cannot attack unless he closes in, at which point he will be shot.

Always remember that good fighters (whether it be hand-to-hand or weapon-related) will often defeat their opponents by disabling their ability to defend themselves or to attack. Even if you have a smooth, swift draw, if you are in range of his weapon, the threat is not over. Any quick method of moderate to serious incapacitation is key to preventing him from continuing his advance, which puts you out of his reach, giving you the edge as you can draw without being knifed, and present a gun that puts him in your range, and against a knife that does not put you in his range.

Seriously incapacitating blows would consist of:

- heavy strike to the groin (assuming it's a male)
- disabling his method of advance (snapping his knee will do the job, or a broken ankle as well)
- strikes to the jaw, chin, or back of the head that will result in loss of consciousness
- strikes to the throat that will disable his ability to breathe
- gouging of the eyes, impairing his vision
- any strike or blow that will take him off his feet, which are his primary method of advance

Keep in mind that your legs are both stronger and longer than your arms. You can effectively kick an opponent at a further distance than you can with an upper body strike. This is on the grounds that you aren't clinched up with the guy. If you're in extremely close quarters (inside fighting), use your elbows. Unless you've trained specifically to administer devastating blows with your knees, do not use them. With inside fighting, your opponent has the ability to grab ahold of you, and lifting a foot off the ground can get an untrained individual thrown off balance very quickly. Use the elbows...they are harder, sharper, and require less movement/muscle contraction to make contact when in range. Aim for the nose as an angled elbow strike can easily break the nose, if not shear if off the face. Also, with elbow strikes, you can position your hands in close to your body for protection. If you have a clear shot at the groin, take it. Put a knee squarely in the BG's nuts. A solid hit will cause him to go limp or keel over. If he keels over, drop an elbow to the back of his neck. This will, at the very least, cause immediate unconciousness, if not paralyze him. If you happen to be holding him with one hand on that side and can't elbow with the other arm, hammer punch (make a fist and strike with the bottom of the fist). This is also a hard surface, is easily controllable by nearly anyone, and doesn't put you at risk for a wrist injury.

Again, with inside fighting, go for the eyes. It works on mountain lions and bears, and it works on humans as well. Pull the hair if needbe to lower his head, exposing the back of his neck. If his head is leaned back, strike his nose in an upward motion with the bottom of the palm of your hand. The goal is to force the back of the nose structure into the brain, causing death. If you miss, either way you're pushing his head back and away from you. This is the basic stiff-arm. Have someone cup your chin in their hand and push you away...it's not easy to fight back in that position, and if you do it forcefully enough without resistance, you can cause a neck injury. Push him back, then straight kick him in the stomach to push him out of knife range, giving you time to draw (and fire if needbe).

The important thing to remember is if the BG can reach you with his knife, regardless of whether your gun is drawn or not, he can still put you down. Puting him out of range should be the first goal. That may be turn around and run, or it might mean fighting your way out of corner. Either way, the first step is disabling his means of harming you, which is getting out of the way of that knife. That might entail running, stepping, or crippling him. Once you're out of that knife's reach, he can't hurt you with it unless he's a champion knife thrower, which is highly unlikely.

1. Get out of his range, and do whatever it takes.
2. Once you're out of his range, draw. If he is incapacitated, you're done. If he retires and retreats, you're done.
3. If he continues his advance, plug him until he is physically unable to continue his attack or retreats. This means one or all of the following:

- he drops the knife, and makes no attempt to retrieve it (assuming the knife is his only weapon)
- he turns and retreats
- he falls, meaning his method of advance (on his feet) is gone, again, assuming the knife is his only weapon

The best case scenario in this situation is if, during the struggle, he drops his knife and attempts to retrieve it. Kick it away (out of range), and when he goes to get it, draw.

There are a million different things that could happen. He might have a gun in his belt, or be an excellent knife fighter. He might have friends that jump in on his side, or is clumsy and falls on his face during the attack. The important thing to remember is the knife attack is the primary concern. Get away from it, and either retreat or draw and hold him at gunpoint. A knife is only effective when it can reach an opponent. Those of us that choose to carry have the edge, once we're outside the reach of the knife. But inside the reach, the BG has the edge (no pun intended).


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## deadon

I agree with Mike, its situational. Someone that close, seconds count, I've seen how fast a person can close the distance and its scary. I won't bother getting into stance A, hold gun this way, etc. As soon as the muzzle comes up and it appears that the gun is pointing into him, I'm firing.


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## StatesRights

Depends on what type of attack from 7 ft. Knife? You're stabbed and you may or may not get off a shot before you die. Gun? You're shot and you may or may not get off a shot before you die. 
Seven feet gives you about half a second to react, and unless you're Bob Munden (look him up), you don't have much of a chance. 
Hate to rain on all the macho, Rambo Clint Eastwoods out there, but from 7 ft a determined attacker will take you out unless you have some hand combat skills.

Don't believe me? Have a buddy stand 7 ft from you and try to draw before he can attack you. Make sure you do it with an empty gun.

I wasn't trying to be a butthole in my text. I'm a realist and I realize that a concealed weapon is not a guarantee that you won't get hurt or killed. Cops and soldiers get killed all the time,and they have their weapon out more readily accessible, think about it. 
Carrying a concealed weapon makes you more prepared to defend yourself than all the other anti-gun sheep out there, but don't get over confident. Sh*t happens.


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## clanger

*...in a nutshell...*



> Response to an attack w/in 7'


I would not let them get that close in the first place.

Once the threat get's that close and is moving fast, if you draw and present, you are handing them your gun if you don't shoot in time. (they will gain muzzle control)

Pushing off of a moving threat will knock you down (a body in motion will stay in motion etc). 
I won't back pedal (I'd still be in the threat's way and travellng with them), I'll *sidestep/draw/fire *in the same motion or Rock it if I could not sidestep. (I've been taught to fire as soon as the holster is cleared and the muzzle is parallel to the ground- all in one motion. [economy in motion]) 
With many semi-auto's, press-fire is not an option as the slide can come out of battery. And that's a baaad thing.

If the threat was closing and went for a weapon he'd be dead- you'd have options then as he's involved with producing something.

If the threat and I go to the ground I'm pulling my burner (it's a roller) and press firing 5, +P, JHP's into him and that'll be the end of it. One of us is not getting up.

*

I'm going home to my couch every night....and if I'm late, the butt-groove in it get's a little testy.


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## James NM

OK. I've been thinking hard. Didn't want to pop off with something off the top of my head. 3 defensive moves... I think I've got it!

Stop.....Drop......and Roll!:smt033


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## unpecador

James NM said:


> OK. I've been thinking hard. Didn't want to pop off with something off the top of my head. 3 defensive moves... I think I've got it!
> 
> Stop.....Drop......and Roll!:smt033


That's what you should do if you're on fire but you may want to reconsider if you're on fire and being attacked at the same time...


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