# German made, German quality,



## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Does anybody know why a German made firearm, automobiles, have a reputation of quality?


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

Not all things German are such high quality... if you believe Consumer Reports. Take a look at the reliability records of BMW and Mercedes Benz and compare them to Acura. Honda, Toyota, and even Ford. Mind you, these are not my words, though I do have experience with a 1996 BMW 328i.

Germans do excel in some things just like Japanese, Americans, and other nations excel in other things. In the period leading up to and after the turn of the 20th century, America was the most powerful economic force on earth, exceeding that of England, Germany, and France combined. This continued right through WWII and continues today. And our war machine in WWII was the best in the world. Planes, ships, small arms, trucks, and yes in one category, tanks. The German tanks were marvelous with one exception. They were slower than ours and when they broke down, technicians had to be summoned to fix them. But this gets away from the question at hand.

Germany has had a well-earned reputation for engineering in some areas for many years. They are fastidious, tenacious as engineers, and have a penchant for detail and precision which has enabled them to produce some of the worlds best products. As for firearms, a number of other countries are equal and better in some products so that one is a toss up.


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## Smitty79 (Oct 19, 2012)

Not to hijack the thread, but I am surprised the Japanese or Koreans aren't making good mass market guns.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

My fault , the question might be to "in general " of a question.
With the same specs.,Or prints? Same tools.
Why will the German or immigrant to the surrounding european region in most situations build a better product?
Even when working here in the USA for an American company.


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

I think it comes to history.

We are a young nation with roots to Britain.We didn't always keep a buisness or trade running down through the generations.The Germans were about precision and did have the trade taught and handed down through generations with long apprenticeships that certain knowledge was only handed down from father to son,the finer points an average apprentice would not be given so easily if at all.Swiss watches were a standard of excellence,Leica makes some of the most precise lense for optics on the planet.Take HK,generations of craftsmen held the workforce.Take the slide off a USP and look at the recision machining to it,there's more precision work to just that slide than is put into an entire Glock pistol.That's why HK is more expensive.Sauer built quality over quantity.

Of course this doesn't translate into all fields,but in certain ones their quality is second to none and has given them that prestige status.In our earlier days we just weren't there and have a diversity of goods exported out to the world.Once we did get on the ball,we rose fairly quickly with quality and precision,but in the timeline of history we were an infant.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

rex said:


> I think it comes to history.
> 
> We are a young nation with roots to Britain.We didn't always keep a buisness or trade running down through the generations.The Germans were about precision and did have the trade taught and handed down through generations with long apprenticeships that certain knowledge was only handed down from father to son,the finer points an average apprentice would not be given so easily if at all.Swiss watches were a standard of excellence,Leica makes some of the most precise lense for optics on the planet.Take HK,generations of craftsmen held the workforce.Take the slide off a USP and look at the recision machining to it,there's more precision work to just that slide than is put into an entire Glock pistol.That's why HK is more expensive.Sauer built quality over quantity.
> 
> Of course this doesn't translate into all fields,but in certain ones their quality is second to none and has given them that prestige status.In our earlier days we just weren't there and have a diversity of goods exported out to the world.Once we did get on the ball,we rose fairly quickly with quality and precision,but in the timeline of history we were an infant.


You got that pretty close, back in the late 70's early 80's I became an apprentice to a west German machinist. The shop was full of German immigrants, some were East Germans ex pow's.
I never seen such pride taken in the work they did. It was shameful to put out a mediocre product. Every step was necessary ,even though it did not seem necessary at the time. It would make sense later and you understood that.
There were times I would get lazy and thought it was good enough. That was corrected immediately. they would not advance you to a position after at least proving You had the potential. You only advanced if earned. MOST never advanced, some sooner, some later. Such pride ,100% of every day.
I know it could be more of a European overall pride. But my personal experience as a davenport machine builder was German dominated. I did five years and made a career move. Bridgeports,grinders ,lathes, scraping metal to metal surfaces for a proper bearing, heat treating for the proper temper. Building clutches,a good clutch needed good a good surface bearing. It was good work
Maybe that's why I like heavy metal guns,lol.
But there was a difference in pride that the German immigrants possessed . I talked to much already


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Smitty79 said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but I am surprised the Japanese or Koreans aren't making good mass market guns.


*Japanese*: Howa, Miroku, Sumitomo Heavy Industries-Winchester, Browning
*Korean*: Daewoo (now S&T Motiv Co., Ltd.)-too many different gun types to conveniently list.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

I have a 2003 R1150RT BMW motorcycle, that I bought new back in Nov. of 2002. I paid more for it than what I would have liked, but I've been around motorcycles all my life, and always wanted a big BMW road bike. As the ole saying goes, if you want to hear the music, you got to pay the piper. 

Anyways, for the most part, I do like it. I have approx. 28K miles on it so far, and only a few issues with it here and there. German engineering is good, but it can be not so well thought out at times. 

It's down on power compared to Japanese bikes the same or near same engine size. The battery is tucked away in such a spot, that makes it about a 30 min. job just to get at it. And, it didn't last as long as Japanese bike batteries have. I replaced it with a 0 maint. gel battery.

My biggest bitch is with the BMW dealers that see you walk in the door, and they start eye-balling the thickness of your wallet. The last time I had my bike in for service, they tried to rip me off by over-charging me $400.00. BMW's corporate attitude doesn't help either. Bunch of arrogant bastards, as they believe they are never wrong and won't admit it when they are. 

I could go on and on, but I think you catch my drift. This was my 1st and only BMW motorcycle. There will not be another in my future. 

When it comes to motorcycles, the best in the world, on or off-road, is Japanese.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

The Japanese might have surpassed everyone. 
I was reflecting on the pride and the proudness I witnessed in a German dominated company.I believe ,being a nation of immigrants, the crafts, n mostl everything American was learned r passed from mostly European immigrants. I can't think of anything purely American at the moment 
Anybody have any strickly American made inventions that were not European born. Airplanes, trains, automobile, not quite sure
I do remember people from Japan on many occasions touring the plant.
I would never buy a Japanese automobile until last month. Lol. We turned into a Honda family. Sorry to the american big three. They pushed me away from the American auto. Hung in there as long as reasonably expected.
I traded in my ford f150 with 63,000 miles on it.
When the ford service mechanic is driving my vehicle more then me,that's a problem.


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

*paratrooper*;
I find myself disheartened by your BMW-bike story.
Back when I had a Jawa-because I couldn't've come close to affording a BMW-I rode with a couple of guys with BMWs, a couple of guys with assorted Japanese bikes, and one solitary guy with a Harley.
Those 1960s BMWs were superbly built and well engineered. Everything was pretty easy to get at for service. And anyway, they never broke down. (And neither did my CZ/Jawa, for that matter.) Even the Harley was rock-solid. The Jap bikes were another story, however.
I think that what happened to BMW was "gentrification." Prices went up, partly because designs got mechanically complicated. Buyers were rich guys who rode once-in-a-while, rather than every day, because their first-line vehicle was a car. So if their bikes needed service, it was no big deal to take them to the dealer, and to pay "full-boat" prices for the work. So complexity just wasn't their problem.
But that left day-to-day riders out in the cold with empty pockets, and the Jap bike makers stepped in to fill the void. Harley, too.
And here we are.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> The Japanese might have surpassed everyone.
> I was reflecting on the pride and the proudness I witnessed in a German dominated company.I believe ,being a nation of immigrants, the crafts, n mostl everything American was learned r passed from mostly European immigrants. I can't think of anything purely American at the moment
> *Anybody have any strickly American made inventions that were not European born*. Airplanes, trains, automobile, not quite sure
> I do remember people from Japan on many occasions touring the plant.
> ...


Sure. Tons of them. In fact, 70% of the inventions created in the 20th century came from right here. The mother of invention is freedom and money. You have to have capital and you have to have the freedom to create.


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## paratrooper (Feb 1, 2012)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> *paratrooper*;
> I find myself disheartened by your BMW-bike story.
> Back when I had a Jawa-because I couldn't've come close to affording a BMW-I rode with a couple of guys with BMWs, a couple of guys with assorted Japanese bikes, and one solitary guy with a Harley.
> Those 1960s BMWs were superbly built and well engineered. Everything was pretty easy to get at for service. And anyway, they never broke down. (And neither did my CZ/Jawa, for that matter.) Even the Harley was rock-solid. The Jap bikes were another story, however.
> ...


I just don't have enough of a history with BMW to be that well versed on them. Yes, at one time, they were simple and well-crafted.

But, believe me when I say, things have changed. My bike has ABS, FI, self-diagnosing electronics, and a host of other techno-geek stuff. Newer ones than mine, now have traction-control, variable exhaust tuning, and computer mapping while on the fly.

The true spirit of motorcycling has been lost for a few decades now. Some will argue that it's called progress, but whatever. I guess it's no different than everyone having a gadget of some kind in their hand and stuck up to their face while walking down the street.

Seems like anymore if your new car doesn't have celestial navigation of some kind, and a screen to touch and call ahead to the restaurant you're headed to, you're just not keeping up. Oh yeah, heaven forbid that the kids in the rear don't have a touch screen to play movies or games on, for the 20 minute drive.

Can you say frigging enough already.............? :smt076 :smt097


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> Sure. Tons of them. In fact, 70% of the inventions created in the 20th century came from right here. The mother of invention is freedom and money. You have to have capital and you have to have the freedom to create.


The Industrial Revolution


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## Steve M1911A1 (Feb 6, 2008)

pic said:


> The Industrial Revolution


Ooooh... :smt076
That does so bring out the Luddite in me... :numbchuck:


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## rex (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm gonna stir the pot here for S&Ggls.

On the bikes,the old stuff was good with the arguable exception to Harley.It still basically stands today.The Euros and Japs built good stuff that ran,and ran,but when they broke you didn't really fix them roadside.Harley on the other hand,pull out a set of small block Chevy points and condenser,a few simple tools (if it was to that point) and you're up and running down the road.That was pre Evo engines in the mid 80s,then self preservationset in and there were more dealer/mechanic issues involved.Now with pure FI and computers you don't do squat but call for repairs.Everything has gone that way,and quality has gone down the crapper.I'd love to have a tv that lasted 1/2 the time the one 3 ago did.

But,getting back to nationality and all.There are no real "Americans" to compare with the Germans,English,Japs.The only Americans here are far and few between on reservations or sparsley spread throughout population.We stole from them,contained what was left after the slaughter,and then felt sorry and let them get drunk with less consequence than us and let them make money with cassinos.Pretty sad and wasn't much better than Hitler.But,the point being,your basic American isn't,we're just a diluted down and inbred version of previous societies.I'm American born and bred,but I'm not really,my lineage goes back into Switzerland and Germany.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

Steve M1911A1 said:


> Ooooh... :smt076
> That does so bring out the Luddite in me... :numbchuck:


Ok my man, what part of Luddite is your thing. Yes,lol ,I googled the definition. Never heard that word.

I think in relation to the definition, and being myself an American concerned about the USA LOSING JOBS
Today's biggest threat concerning American jobs IMO is robotics , automation. The jobs being lost leaving the country is all we ever hear about.
But just as bad if not worse is the automation of a job once held by an American worker.

If there s a job that can be automated, it will, and has been happening.
Being a union man for close to 35 years, we were always trying to support American jobs.
Buy American .
But today, are you supporting American jobs, or an American robot.lol.
We are truly in a global economy.
If you are still true to buying American, and have not given up yet. good for you. But if you think you haven't given up yet you may be wrong.
I ask if your stock portfolio, 401k. The prospectus may show American companies, the stock market is doing well.
These American companies that your money is invested with ,are doing business in a global economy. Your money may or may not be supporting American jobs.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Ok my man, what part of Luddite is your thing. Yes,lol ,I googled the definition. Never heard that word.
> 
> I think in relation to the definition, and an American concerned about the USA LOSING JOBS
> Today's biggest threat concerning American jobs IMO is robotics , automation. The jobs being lost leaving the country is all we ever hear about.
> ...


The biggest threat to the American economy is our move away from manufacturing products en masse to that of a service economy. Back when the U.S. was the world's largest producer of goods, we held our future in our own hands. As that slowly began to shift, our future is too tied to other nations. Jefferson and Washington were correct (no surprise there). Foreign entanglements always lead to trouble. I'll leave the reasons for this shift to a different thread and another discussion.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> The biggest threat to the American economy is our move away from manufacturing products en masse to that of a service economy. Back when the U.S. was the world's largest producer of goods, we held our future in our own hands. As that slowly began to shift, our future is too tied to other nations. Jefferson and Washington were correct (no surprise there). Foreign entanglements always lead to trouble. I'll leave the reasons for this shift to a different thread and another discussion.


About the products that are being manufactured here in the USA .automaton is becoming a dominate force . How would that benefit our economy if the workers are robotics . When is the last time you seen a robot stimulating the economy with their hard earned money.
Give me an example of the types of manufacturing jobs that would stimulate our economy.
With automation and the decrease in the amount of actual human beings doing the work,,,who is benefiting from automation ? the CEO's. 
I might be viewing this a little narrow minded.
This thread is wide open,lol. It's all related,thanks


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> About the products that are being manufactured here in the USA .automaton is becoming a dominate force . How would that benefit our economy if the workers are robotics . When is the last time you seen a robot stimulating the economy with their hard earned money.
> Give me an example of the types of manufacturing jobs that would stimulate our economy.
> With automation and the decrease in the amount of actual human beings doing the work,,,who is benefiting from automation ? the CEO's.
> I might be viewing this a little narrow minded.
> This thread is wide open,lol. It's all related,thanks


It is wide open but stop and think about if for a moment. Automation is inevitable and is not new.

Example. An invention by an Ohioan who moved to Georgia increased slavery several fold and increased the wealth of the South and the rest of the nation by multitudes. It also helped lead to the War Between the States. Eli Whitney's cotton gin.

Example. The discovery and harnessing of electrical power vastly improved production and output and set the stage for the modern era.

We can on but the fact that remains is change is inevitable. While not always good, ref Nazi Germany, it is a fact of life. Modern automation feeds competitive pricing, improved quality, better products, and more jobs. You may be thinking how are more jobs the result of modern automation. People are still going to be needed to man steel mills, auto assembly lines, coal mines and oil fields, and construction. Not to mention the trickle down affect which helps everyone from parts companies to supply houses to grocery stores to barbers to, you name it.

The nation that no longer builds things is doomed to disaster. We are on that path.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> It is wide open but stop and think about if for a moment. Automation is inevitable and is not new.
> 
> Example. An invention by an Ohioan who moved to Georgia increased slavery several fold and increased the wealth of the South and the rest of the nation by multitudes. It also helped lead to the War Between the States. Eli Whitney's cotton gin.
> 
> ...


Auto assembly lines are manned less n less today ,because of automation. I understand the jobs n parts needed that you have mentioned. But those are jobs we already had. What I am referring to is losing jobs. We are not gaining in respect to the above jobs you mentioned
Yes we will always need manpower , but the advancement and tech of today is producing these products that provided a family with income ,suddenly they figure out a way to automate that specific procedure ,without providing healthcare ,benefits, vacation pay, breaks. Thanks


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Auto assembly lines are manned less n less today ,because of automation. I understand the jobs n parts needed that you have mentioned. But those are jobs we already had. What I am referring to is losing jobs. We are not gaining in respect to the above jobs you mentioned
> Yes we will always need manpower , but the advancement and tech of today is producing these products that provided a family with income ,suddenly they figure out a way to automate that specific procedure ,without providing healthcare ,benefits, vacation pay, breaks. Thanks


It's not sudden, it evolved just like anything else in a nation's economy. Today's computer-driven robots are yesterday's electric motors. There has been and will always be evolutionary change in manufacturing and a host of other areas of the economic life of a nation. It's just the nature of the beast. To be competitive you must always try to beat your competition. The result of competition in the free market is exemplified by the American miracle. No other nation in history has ever done what we have done. Sadly over the past two generations, we have seen the American giant start to shrink. A host of factors are to blame for this, but it wasn't due to automation.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> It's not sudden, it evolved just like anything else in a nation's economy. Today's computer-driven robots are yesterday's electric motors. There has been and will always be evolutionary change in manufacturing and a host of other areas of the economic life of a nation. It's just the nature of the beast. To be competitive you must always try to beat your competition. The result of competition in the free market is exemplified by the American miracle. No other nation in history has ever done what we have done. Sadly over the past two generations, we have seen the American giant start to shrink. A host of factors are to blame for this, but it wasn't due to automation.


Efficiency (with Automation) vs Jobs, which takes priority?

Efficiency is doing a particular task faster, better, and cheaper. Being efficient has a tendency to destroy jobs because you need less people to do a certain task. While some jobs are created, most jobs are destroyed in the process. The #1 Job Killer in this world is efficiency added with automation.

For example, one computer programmer can kill 50 manual jobs. Sure, you could say that there will be more computer jobs but there's a problem with that. More then likely, it will only create 4 or so computer jobs. Not only that, it will probably be deficient 1 of those jobs because out of the 50 or so jobs it killed - only 3 of them have the intelligence to figure out how to do those jobs. And if you add more complex items like algorithm theory and advance mathematics, there's a good chance none of those 50 will ever have a job again.

Which comes to the question. Efficiency vs Jobs, which should be a priority in modern society?


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

How automation is changing the world (21st century skills)


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Efficiency (with Automation) vs Jobs, which takes priority?
> 
> Efficiency is doing a particular task faster, better, and cheaper. Being efficient has a tendency to destroy jobs because you need less people to do a certain task. While some jobs are created, most jobs are destroyed in the process. The #1 Job Killer in this world is efficiency added with automation.
> 
> ...


I am a retired software engineer... a somewhat fancy title for a software developer who designs systems as well as coding and implementing them. I did this for the 29 years of my life leading up to my retirement. I also did a number of other jobs such as receiving clerk in an electrical wholesale company later moving into sales then management then commercial quotations. I carried male and (ugh) sold women's shoes. So I was exposed to other skills and potential careers. But I decided to return to college and get a few degrees which opened the door to software development. If I can do that, others can as well. Yes I know that certain people have a proclivity for specific pursuits. I did quite well in software development and it did quite well for me.

However, I also enjoy writing and working with my hands on firearms, and playing musical instruments (guitar), and forensic investigation, and a bunch of other things. Yes some people lose their jobs as companies change their operations and their ways of doing things. But they have no choice if they wish to remain competitive and in business 'cause you can bet their competitors are going to do all they can to beat them. And that's a good thing.

Innovation and automation are natural to business if it is to stay alive. Embrace it and be glad that companies are doing what they can to increase their market share.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

I understand what your saying, but I think you are missing the point I' m trying to make. That's ok. Maybe somebody else can express it better then me.


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> I understand what your saying, but I think you are missing the point I' m trying to make. That's ok. Maybe somebody else can express it better then me.


I do understand what you are saying, really I do. I do know that with change comes loss of employment for some and some of these people, due to their age, inability to pick up and move, lack of will or ability to learn new things, or something else are going to be left in the dust, holding the bag. It happens in every generation and it has been happening for long before any of us on these forums were born. It is a fact of life. It may be sad but there is nothing that can be done to change one side of this equation.

You mentioned you come from a union background. I live in an "employment at will" state, sometimes referred to as a right to work state. I think this is much better than union states, especially those which are closed shop states (don't even know if that is legal anymore). It's the Southern in me I guess. I am business oriented and in particular, free market competitive market driven economy oriented. Perhaps that is where the differences lie.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> I do understand what you are saying, really I do. I do know that with change comes loss of employment for some and some of these people, due to their age, inability to pick up and move, lack of will or ability to learn new things, or something else are going to be left in the dust, holding the bag. It happens in every generation and it has been happening for long before any of us on these forums were born. It is a fact of life. It may be sad but there is nothing that can be done to change one side of this equation.
> 
> You mentioned you come from a union background. I live in an "employment at will" state, sometimes referred to as a right to work state. I think this is much better than union states, especially those which are closed shop states (don't even know if that is legal anymore). It's the Southern in me I guess. I am business oriented and in particular, free market competitive market driven economy oriented. Perhaps that is where the differences lie.


I never stated I'm against automation, robotics. Outsourcing work is another factor.
I'm sure if you were to tour a number of major manufacturing plants you would not believe the jobs that were once performed by humans that are now being done with automation or robotics.
I stated and I believe it plays a factor in the loss of jobs. It is the capitalistic way. You state that automation is creating jobs. What jobs?
The unions played a part in creating the middle class, benefits, holidays, vacations,the weekend.federal n state laws were put in place thanks to the unions. If you do not belong to a union, you need to thank the union for your better working conditions.
When have American companies ever decided to give away money out of the kindness of their hearts.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> I do understand what you are saying, really I do. I do know that with change comes loss of employment for some and some of these people, due to their age, inability to pick up and move, lack of will or ability to learn new things, or something else are going to be left in the dust, holding the bag. It happens in every generation and it has been happening for long before any of us on these forums were born. It is a fact of life. It may be sad but there is nothing that can be done to change one side of this equation.
> 
> You mentioned you come from a union background. I live in an "employment at will" state, sometimes referred to as a right to work state. I think this is much better than union states, especially those which are closed shop states (don't even know if that is legal anymore). It's the Southern in me I guess. I am business oriented and in particular, free market competitive market driven economy oriented. Perhaps that is where the differences lie.


Not so many years ago, American manufacturers turned their employees into slave laborers with long working hours, poor pay and a total lack of respect for their efforts.

I'm talking about the auto industry at that time. The garment industry wasn't much better with its harsh exploitation of child labor.

After bloody strikes, unions were formed and a lot of wrongs were made right. Over the years a strong middle class was formed to the benefit of this great country.

Since then, a constant effort has been made to destroy the middle-class unions. These modern-day slavers came up with a great plan; find slave labor in other countries like China, many South American countries and Mexico.

These American greed mongers think they have found a way to destroy our middle class and return them to utter despair.

What these fools aren't taking into consideration is the simple fact that this foreign slave labor, in time, will revolt like the American worker did years ago and turn the tide on them.

They will want unions and better working conditions and higher wages.

I guess then profits will drop like their patriotism. They will come back to the American middle-class worker with their tails between their legs. I hope I live long enough to see this great day.

JOHN TOMINSKY


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> Not so many years ago, American manufacturers turned their employees into slave laborers with long working hours, poor pay and a total lack of respect for their efforts.
> 
> I'm talking about the auto industry at that time. The garment industry wasn't much better with its harsh exploitation of child labor.
> 
> ...


Look what Henry Ford did in the early 20th century. He advertised for assembly line workers $1.00 per hour for a 40 hour week and thousands of worker fled to his plants to get those jobs. He took workers away from other car companies with such high wages and good working conditions. His approach was different than that of other companies.

This is going anywhere and is way off topic and for that, I must apologize to the other posters on this thread. Pic and I have a different view of American business and its history and that is fine. We come from different backgrounds, perhaps different educational experiences, and different views of American business and enterprise. My guess is we also differ on government's roll in all of this. Again, that's fine. But I believe he and I have taken up too much time and space on this subject and should bring it to an end at this point. This thread, like most threads on this site, are suppose to be slanted towards firearms issues.

So I'll beg off and hope it ends here.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> Look what Henry Ford did in the early 20th century. He advertised for assembly line workers $1.00 per hour for a 40 hour week and thousands of worker fled to his plants to get those jobs. He took workers away from other car companies with such high wages and good working conditions. His approach was different than that of other companies.
> 
> This is going anywhere and is way off topic and for that, I must apologize to the other posters on this thread. Pic and I have a different view of American business and its history and that is fine. We come from different backgrounds, perhaps different educational experiences, and different views of American business and enterprise. My guess is we also differ on government's roll in all of this. Again, that's fine. But I believe he and I have taken up too much time and space on this subject and should bring it to an end at this point. This thread, like most threads on this site, are suppose to be slanted towards firearms issues.
> 
> So I'll beg off and hope it ends here.


No prob SouthernBoy. Nothing wrong with a little disagreeing. Everything's good. An economist you are not, sticking with handguns is a good idea,lol,just a little teaser,


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## SouthernBoy (Jun 27, 2007)

pic said:


> No prob SouthernBoy. Nothing wrong with a little disagreeing. Everything's good. *An economist you are not, sticking with handguns is a good idea,lol,just a little teaser*,


I trust the "just a little teaser part" is true because I do have quite a good understanding of economies and the various strains which exist.

But we're good. And I do enjoy a friendly discourse of opposing views. Nice to see everything stayed civil. That doesn't always happen.

Enjoy your day.


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## pic (Nov 14, 2009)

SouthernBoy said:


> I trust the "just a little teaser part" is true because I do have quite a good understanding of economies and the various strains which exist.
> 
> But we're good. And I do enjoy a friendly discourse of opposing views. Nice to see everything stayed civil. That doesn't always happen.
> 
> Enjoy your day.


We are good forever n ever.til death do us part. Any chance ,I can make it in your will. You know leave me a couple of those glocks maybe?
I will forward all the necessary information to make it legal dad, oh sorry, it just came out.. Have a great day my friend, wishing you the best ,always 
PIC


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